HomeMy WebLinkAboutLAMBORN, GEORGE D. F.HENRY P. SMITH, Presiden!
JOHN M, BREDEMEYEK Vice-Pres.
PHILLIP J. GOUBEAUD
ALBERT KRUPSKI. JR.
ELLEN M. LARSEN
TELEPHOS~E
(516) 765-1892
BOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES
TO~N OF SOUTHOLD
Town Hall. 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 728
Southold, New York 11971
May 30, 1986
Mr. George D. F. Lamborn
Ocean View Avenue
Fisher's Island, New York
06390
Dear Mr. Lamborn:
The following action was taken by the Board of Trustees
at their regular meeting held on May 29, 1986 regarding your
Wetland Application No. 385.
Moved by Trustee Krupski seconded by Trustee Larsen it was
RESOLVED to TABLE the application of George D. F. La,born and
it is further advised that all pumping from the lower pond is
ko cease. The Fishers island Bay Constable is requested to
monitor this location.
The Trustees will follow up with questions regarding thi.s
matter in a letter ~o be drafted at the earliest possible date.
Very truly yours,
Henry P. Smith, President
Board of Town Trustees
HPS:ip
cc: Trustees
Bay Constables
Mr. Michael J. Hall, Attorney
Mr. Steve Malinowski, F.I. Bay Constable
BOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
Town Hall. 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 725
Southold. New York 11971
TELEPHONE
(516) 765-1892
March 12, 1986
Mr. Richard A. Howard
Box 446
Beach Avenue
Fishers Island, New York
06390
Dear Mr. Howard:
Please be advised that this office is ~n receipt of
your letter dated March 9, 1986 reqarding the Ferry District
property on Fishers Island.
We have referred your letter to our Bay Constable who
makes inspections in cases of possible wetland violations.
Very truly yours,
Henry P. Smith, President
Board of Town Trustees
HPS:ip
cc:
Trustees
Bay Constable
Judge Raymond W. Edwards
Raymond Jacobs, Highway Superintendent
John Clavin Fishers Island Harbor Master
file
December 2, 1986
Mr. George D. F. Lamborn
Ocean View Avenue
Fishers Island, New York
06390
Re: Application No. 385
Dear Mr. Lamborn:
The following action was taken by the Board of Trustees during their
regular meeting held on November 25, 1986 regarding your wetland application
referenced above.
Moved by Trustee Bredemeyer seconded by Trustee Krupski it was
RESOLVED to APPROVE the pumping of water from a pond into an upper pond on
property of George D. F. Lamborn, Fishers Island as follows:
1. Permit for one year with renewal subject to review of Pe~_~ce.
2. Ferry District residents should not be d~_nied access for~ser~ation
~eiated purposes~ ~r--~f-er--~z~--l-aw~, ~ ~_~i
3. No relaying of water' from the~6~d-~or irrigation or any other
purpose other than Fire Fighting or Public Safety.
4. Salinity profiles of the upper and lower pond be collected prior to
pumping so that they could ~n~%,cc%g,e a highest point of salinity for
monitorin~'~se ~ ~ ~ ~
samples~e taken by~ Spazzaz Bay Constable~
(Establish a base line based on five samples ~r a reasonable number
of samples.) ~ ~,~a~ Ll~f
5. The Salinity of the ~ pond and the upper pond not be allowed to
increase by over
Collection of sample indicatin~ the highest salinity to be made
the Special ~ay Constable.
6. Samplin~ of the salinit~e~ ~ait~outhly durinE the pumpins p~riod
a minimum of 3 times~ ~e Specl~a~Bay Constable.
7. Notification of the Trustee Office one month prior
8. A bench mark is to be est~ablished one foot below th~;~%~r mark)which
will prevent~p~erdr~in~.
9. Flow
k be kept includingM' ~v& the date, rate and number of
hours of flow from the lower pond, to the uper pond, to be available
for review by--Special Bay Constable4~ %~¢~ ~¢~
Board of Trustees
George D. F. Lamborn - Page 2.
10. The applicant is to log continued efforts to seal the uper pond with
bentonite to be£~i~_tnessed by ~g~h~lSpecial Bay Constable.
11. Th'a~-~he permit,/~be~ automatically suspended with the suc~ip~ ~p, para~us
~-P~ the log~w~.-not kept accura~ely~'~"flow meter ~?~s~'broker~If the
lower pond ~ below--~cvgi.~9~ ~^~ ~
11. Suspension could be appealed at the next regular Trustee Board mee[ing
~fr written~z~' . ~, ~z&~ ~· ~
DISCUSSION HELD ON APPLICATION NO. 385 - George D. F. Lamborn
November 25, 1986.
John Bredemeyer: This is to approve/deny the request made by George D.F. Lamborn
to pump water from a pond into an upper pond, Fishers Island. I would move for
a permit with restrictions as follows. It is fairly lengthy so I will take it
slowly. I am sure there will be some discussion.
I moue to permit for one year with renewal subject to performance and the
following will be all permit restrictions:
Ferry District rasidents should not be denied access for Conservation
r~ated p~posas. ~
f~No~ ~e~mng of w~ter from ~he l~ver ~ond ~or ,zr=~g~,.o,n or any otk~
4. "~~r6files of the upper and lower pond be collected prior to
p~ping so that they ~ould indicate a highest point of salinity for
monitoring and those samples be taken by the Special Bay Constable.
5. ~ y[~ Dba l~wer*pond and upper pond not be allowed to increase
6~r 10% (that would bg inclusive of w~at salinity might increase
from run off from fertilization and from evaporation.~
6. That there would be sampling of the salinities at least monthly during
the pumping period, collmcted by the Special Bay Constable.
7. That a bench mark be established one foot below the water mark which a
numbe~of responsible Fishers Island people have noted there so that the
lower pond will not be over drafted.
8. That a flow meter and log book be kept including the date, rate and number
of hours of flow from the lower pond, to the upper pond.
9. That the applicant log continued efforts to seal the upper pond with
bentonite to be witnessed by the Special Bay Constable.
10. That the permit be mutomically suspended with this suction apparatus
and the lower pond be dismantled if warrant salinities were exceeded
If the log was not kept accurately or flow mener was broken.
If the lower pond was below level.
Suspension could be appealed at the nexn regular Trustee Board meeting
after a ~ittem notice.
That is what I have to offer at this time.
Smith: Would anyone like to offer any special ....
Larsen: Can the Board members make comments first?
Bredemeyer: Excuse me.
Krupski: What was the salinity level, 10%?
Bredemeyer: Not to excees 10% of what is existing at the base line period. At
the base period! In other words start with one...
Krupski: Do you think those conditions ars going to be protective enough in light
of what they are experiencing now on Fishers Island?
Bredemeyer: I guess if the water is down a foot, I was told it was 8 to 10 inches
already below the water mark maybe he will not be able to draft. Maybe this is
pie in the sky. I feel very strongly as a point of reference that ths applicant
has alternative to a ministerial action that he can go and get a well pe{mit and
from any well driller, and have a well put in. By virtue of a simple paperwork
transaction can pump vast quanities of water unregulated and so that if we there
is a negative push on this, not discounting going to a large environmental
assessment on this. If the Board says no to him, he turns around and if we push
the no action alternative he will~ possibl~C~oing more environmental damage
Page 2.
and that is why I felt very strongly, even with the risk of failure, Just
try to work with someting that might be very tightly constructed to allow him
to start to pump and maybe continue his efforts to seal the pond and put him
on a performance basis. Then as a side letter, this I really haven't gotten
into, is to have the Trustees and possibly the Fishers Island Conservancy and
Mr. Lamborn and the Ferry District and others possibly get involed in some type
of joint funding basis to study the acquifer. We have monies available_for
research. I think everyone has been concerned about this, and instead of every-
one pointing their finger at the other guy and saying that they are not concerned
we can put some bucks where their mouth is and get the information. That way we
can give this thing a year to work and be very tightly constructed. Mr. Lamborn
could have his use and by not denying the special district residence who also have
an interest in that lower pond by not denying them use of that pond in a sence
he would be making it more or less a public reserve that other people could
enjoy to.
Krupski: Without blowing it out of proportion making it a greater project that
it actually is, or greate~ importance than it is...
Smith: It is already blown out of porportion...
Bredemeyer: I think SO.o.
Krupski: What you are saying, is that it would be of less impact if he pumped
out of the lower pond then if he pumped out of the acquifer.
Bredemeyer: At least I feel, as Henry said this has been blown out of porportion,
I feel that it is an extremely discrete small project, with a very noble land
and he is willing to take restrictions and offer the public use of the pond. He
says this is for conservation. I can't see taking good potable water out of an
acquifer where you would have no governmental control at all. Where he and his
Attorney had accepted a measure of control. I basically feel that we could
then try to work in the interum to get some type of study done. When I talked
to Mr. Thatcher of the Conservancy, he indicated that he talked to a hydrogologist
that might be able to work a short study up for $400.00. Certainaly the Army
would have to help out i~ a study of that size. Since it is public land. I think
the aims here have been noble, I think everyone had gotten a little rapped up in
this, and have really gone overboard.
Larsen: John, can I see what you wrote? I tried to make some notes.
Bredemeyer: I;ll read it, it may be hard to read, It is my writing and as the
author of it...
Larsen: Okay: If we have a comment on it, we can comment.
Bredemeyer: ~0~isi0na! permit for on~e, y_e~ar. In Qgh~r Womds it ~will be on ~
~ the
: ~Y~ere':~alrea~y ~as a special interest in the pond (lower pond).
Krupski: You can't deny public access to that pond. (His pond.)
Bredemeyer: He cannot unreasonably deny public for a lawful use, lee skating, fishing
Larsen: Mr, Lamborn can't deny public access etc.
Page 3.
Bredemeyer: In other words he can not deny access to that pond for lawful
use that, bird watdhing, ice skating what ever. I think we have to leave
it open a little. He may say, bird watching and fishing is fine, but I don~t
want ice skating for someone, because of the liability. I think we have to look
at it. My feeling is that they can't be denied access.
Larsen: If someone wants to go swimming, can he say get off of my property.
Bredg~eyer: I don't know instead of looking for problems, I want to accentuate
the positive. When someone makes it our problem, the Board can sit down and
say, well someone was denied, that's it on the permit.
Larsen: There could be a problem.
Bredemeyer: ~l~y f~r~oth~ purpps~s, not.to, fill~ sg~ntming~p~o~/~.~no,t t~j~
m~zg~te ~s*~ ~o grow f~owers, strmctly for conservatzon purposes, ~
f~ ~ire f%ghling and public safety, if the fire dept. has to draft for a h~use.
In~he.r ~s it is going to be a oonservation pond. The water is coming f~m
a ~il~life area, it should go to a wildlife area.
Larsen: So if they want to come in to take water from his pond to fight a fire
they can.
Bredemeyer: Yes~: A p~blic safety use, if they get roudy they can use the pom~.
Smith: If you need to fight a fire, I don't care who it is, they will use the
water. You are not going to stop it.
Bredemeyer: I ~fel~ that the Special Bay Constable who is a marine ecologist
and had stand~ng ~ctually as an oponent~
an~ ed~cat~g~n~.~y~~w~ ~c~n~take sallnltys fr~ the
upper ,-a~d(~ l~'r~ ~ff ~
i~M~s~ ~ Very n~inal 10% because it would increase through evaporation 10% of
the volume could change very quickly iht he upper and lower ponds. And you could
have some salinity increase possibly through siltation, fertilizer and other
things on that la~ that could be running do~ anyway.
Salini~ies pr~Cites of th~ upper and lower pond.' Collection~'
of sample indicating the highest salinity to be made by the special bay constable.
Larsen: Right now, the salinity as of two months ago was 2.58 on a surface level
and somewhat within a 10th of a percent higher on the upper pond. Okay, now, if
it increases 10% you are going up to, on the lower pond, you are saying it can
increase up to 10%.
Bredemeyer: So instead of 2.58 it would be 2.58 plus .25 which would be 2.8.
We could expect it to go down based on what at least what we heard is hear say
that the water came over from Storm Gloria. It should be freshing constantly if
that was storm related.
Larsen: The salinity level between 15 and 20 neither freshwater species
or saltwater species can exist in. So you are putting yourself within a ,3
salinity level. So if there was a mixture right now, it is a .2, this is not
a good idea John.
Page 4.
Bredemeyer: No, your misinterpreting this. Your talking about 10% of what is
there. In other words you will have a fractional percentage there. Right now
there are 2.58 parts per thousand salinity which is a very low range and may
not indicate actual salinity. It may indicate water hardness, carbonate or a
lot of other things.
Larsen: We don't know what the actual existing salinity is. Ail we have rmghC now
is a surface level which could have been taken 20 days a drought. Was there
rain,the day before?
Bredemeyer: What I'm saying is if you pick an arbitrarily low amount and you
take what is in the lower pond right now, which is extremely low it is
essentially very low right now. ~ich is essentially fresh water right now
and by not allowing it to increase we don't want salt water in the lower pond.
Krupski: That is a pretty protective figure. Your said you are going to test
it now at different levels and any furthur rise, any possible rise from those
levels...
Bredemeyer: In other words we will eMtablis~h the bas~e line based o~n fi~za samples
or a ~ea~9~a~b~t~ ~fi~be~ df samples. Mr. Malinowski will have to use his professional~
Larsen: St~ve Malinowski said that he would do this?
Bredemeyer: He is the Special Bay Constable..
Larsen: The special bay constable who was hired To keep tract of the number
of moorings in West Harbor and other harbors.
Bredemeyer: T~at %s pgrt of the resolution. We are empowered we have research
funds in our bu~et. This is public land if there is a benefit to be accrude
here, I think we should put our money where our mouth is. I feel very strongly
and Mr. Malinowski can certainly refuse we can look for another special bay
constable with the qualifications to take it. It is public land. I would perfer
to have a public entity or have Don Dzenkowski or Kent McCarthy go over and pull
the samples as to have a party of Mr. Lamborn do it. Who better then a Ph.D
in Marine Ecology who is an opponent of the project who is over there.
Larsen: Well maybe he doesn't want to do it?
Bredemeyer: Well maybe he doesn't want to. I would hope that.°
Larsen: If he doesn't want to do it, is Don Dzenkowski qualified to do it.
Bredemeyer: I would say that our Bay constables are qualified to do this. They
have filled bottles very well in the past for us. I do it on occasion myself.
Larsen: So do I. I do it on occasion myself. And the Town of Southold if Steve
Malinowski doesn't want to do it, is going to pay to send the bay constable over
to Fishers Island the taxpayer is going to pay for this so that Mr. Lamborn.
Bredemeyer: No,i We have inspection fees, there ~re g~ingto be~i~pp~9~ipns
required on t~i~l~e minimum. This is notg0ing tO bea~ f~e~ld~i~ !~
Page 5.
Lateen: I still don't understand this.
Krupski: He is getting a 2.58 parts per thousand of the standard salinity.
Bredemeyer: It is standard salinity. It is all constitutants.
Krupski: So Ellen your saying that your would not like td get to 15 parts per
thousand.
Larsen: I would not want to get close to 15 or 20 because freshwater nor saltwater.
Krupski: We wouldn't even get to 3 at this point, that is what I'm saying.
Bredemeyer. Okay, /Th~ Special bay~ const?b~e wil% be~ the 9ne to pick up th~.
samples during the course 9~ p~i~{~' a~least o~e a mo~ during pumping
a~d~ ~a~ ~mum~ ~!e~t~es~' a~ ~e~,~ ~h~M~ tg~9~.p~.~~. 1A~ben~ ~.~$11
~~:t~)arounR ~e pond and th~ levels seem to ~e sm~0r emgh~ znches~
o%~i~7~htty more DoWer. We sa~d we would not let zt go beiow a foot. Here agazn~
~uiid't in ext~ra protection. We don't want to have a problem. It would certainly
remain that if ~. Lamborn would want to prove otherwise by getting a hydrogologist
that maybe we are to consetative. ~nm~r~i~Su~s a]~,meter ~d~a log book
A ~o~ meter: ,can be put on the discharge line into ~e uppe= pond.~ ~ey
~S~ ~tie ;~z~ ~f the plastzc pmpzng. ~en he starts the pump he makes a
to ~={~%~as ~b~B~B~K q~ ~onrs and wren ~t ms off. Then he take~ the
~a~;~g~'~f~R~ o~: hbur~ ~s ~Ou Zh~ amount of water d~scharged mnto the
u~ pond. Would then give the indication o~ the amount of water used. The'
applicant ~onld additionally have to log continued efforts ~ seal ~he ~npper'
p~ with bentionite and, have it w%ttnessed by t~e specia% ba~ constab~.
~&~f~hS~~ ~"~Mt~he ts~Bhow%ng ~ efff~ [hat~h~ is showing an effort
c0n~inue to s&al 'th8 pond so that he will not have to continue to use this source
of water. Then there is automotic permit suspension provisions here since it is
on public land we retain the right to dismantle the suction at our pleasure
based on the salinities, ~e didn't recieve the results of the salinitires (lab)
or the log was not kept accurately or the flow meter was broken or the lower
pond was to low. A Bay Constable or his disagnee could then at that time remove
the suction and advise Mr. Lamborn of same, at which time if he felt that he
~an~d the suspension to be reviewed at the nex~ Trustee meeting. There was
~ CoUld bring in that he' made a correction on the water levels, whatever.
And I did have here discussion here about sending a side letter to the various
groups to get together and meet to possibly to look at the acquifer in a broader
sence but maybe the special area that is Trustee jurisdiction as opposed to a
larger area, of the lower pond. I feel that it would take at least 4 inspections
to conduct this.
Goubeaud: I just fee that this is an awful lot to allow one man to draft of
of public property, Then someone else is going to come in to draft water like this.
Bredemeyer: I just feel that I would encourage anyone who is willing to establish
a small area where he will help provide specific harborage for water fowl, and
specifically take restrictions for conservation purposes. I think it is a little
clumsy, this is the first time that this Board has seen this done. and this is
the first place.
Goubeaud: I don't think that we should condone drafting off of open bodies of
water until a study is done of the acquifer system. I know yoa are going to say
that he is going to draft off of the groundwater but that is something that is
Page 6.
within the wall that we have no control over. We do have control over people
taking water out of the freshwater ponds that are already established there.
If Re is really not going to draft water off of the pond there for this home-
made pond, I doubt that by him putting in a well to the acquifer system, but
until a study is dona...
Smith: I think that this is invaluable information that we can get from this
that would be part of this study.
Goubeaud: No, I don*t think so. If he drops in a 4" casing down that could
be used more benificial to the acquifer there. Then direct measurements can
be taken from the casing to water.
Smith: There is pumping now for irrigation purposes at the Country Club.
Thats okay.
Goubeaud: That is just it, if the study is done by the Town Board, Conservation
measures can be taken .
Krupski: I have been in opposition to alot of the ideas so far. This is very
restrictive.
Larsen: He mentioned that he did have two wells,
Goubeaud: It could be so restrictive that all of the restrictions could be
taken care of,
Bredemeyer: I would like to s~y that Mr. Lamborn and the people of Fishers
Island are of such intergrity and capability that they will really rise to the
occasion, If they are not that is why we will review it in a year. I would like
to ~ee him to get in with "A conservation related water right ahead of a~y study
that would allow someone to irrigate a lawn or fill their swimming pool".
I have some strong feelings about that.
Goubeaud: Then it goes back to rewarding a person that puts in an illegial
operation.
Bredemeyer: Then it goes back to he asked the person that he thought was the
right person for permission. Anyhow I have had my say.
Johnathan Kibbe: From Grase and Richards appearing on behalf of Fishers Island
Conservancy. I feel that this is the most important issue on Fishers Island
right now.
Judge Edwards: Henry didn't you close the hearing?
Smith: I think he is responding to comments.
Bredameyer: Well I think in this particular case, I think that you are
creating an extremely special class of appearances because of the isolation
of the island and I think that it would be inappropriate to take speakers. It
is not as easy for speakers to come to the meeting, that to accept comments from
one, we should accept comments from all parties envolved as well as Mr. Lamborn
who may not even be aware that we are discussing this application.
Page 7.
I can appreciate Mr. Kibbe for coming all the way out here tonight.
Smith: I believe that this is a discussion for us to dicuss.
Krupski: Can we add to that, that Mr. Lamborn notify the special bay constable
before he con~ences drafting.
Larsen: I think that there is an awful burden on the Fishers Island Conservancy,
the ~pecial Bay Constable, the man is drafting public water without no
recompense to the town. There has been no study of the acquifer system on
Fishers Island, I have a letter that I would like to read if Albert is
done with what he has to say.
Bredemeyer: I'm sorry in going through this I think if I read it the first time
but not the second time. In other words to be put on notice when the pumping
starts, I feel...
Larsen: He can't meet our challange if the salinity levels change.
Krupski: That is the whole point. If the salinities change the pumping ceases
and that is the end of it.
Larsen: In the mean time, we are putting additional work on a special bay
constable, we are going to ask the conservancy to monitor this.
Bredemeyer: We are putting additional inspections on as we would do on any
application that comes before the board.
Larsen: With no recompense to ~the town. I feel that we are going through alot
of trouble for this. Can I read my letter to the Board? John read his.
Smith:' Is this a resolution.
Larsen: No, it is in response to the resolution. I would like to read it out
loud.
Smith: I think that this is an internal matter. Ail of the Trustees have it.
Larsen: Mr. Kibbe would you like to hear it, a letter that I wrotg.
Smith: You can have a copy of the letter., this is an internal matter.
that it has to be read tonight.
Latson: Henry I would like to hear it.
Smith: YOu can have a copy of it.
I don't feel
Latson: Henry you are railroading, John and You are railroading.
Larsen: A board member can't speak.
Latson: You can hear it from a Board member, you and John are like wow!
to the bathroom.
I'll go
Smith: We have talked about this for a half an hour. I don't know what this Board
would do if we had a big project to decide on.
Krupski: Just have patience with me one more time. We had six inches of rain
and we will have more tonight. There has been a study mentioned to me by John Thatcher
Page 8.
to be done in three days, by some highly qualified'person from Rhode Island.
Some kind of acquifur study. This is the one Jay suggested for $400.00.
Smith: I don't see what kind of a study can be made in three days.
Bredemeyer: I don't see that we need a study if we don't overdraft and we don't
have salinities moving. That's right out of the code.
Lars~n: You don~t know what the salinities are to begin with.
Bredemeyer: He has to get top and bottom salinities before he starts pumping.
Larsen: Suppose the salinity levels are eight or nine now.
Bredemeyer: They are not.
Larsen: The resolution is on the floor why don't you call for the vote.
Clerk: Is there a second to that motion?
Smith: If anything goes wrong we can stop it right away.
Clerk: Is there a second to that motion.
Krupski: Well with all of those provismons I will make that a resolution.
Clerk: Do you want to second it Al?
Larsen: No he doesn't want to second it.
Clerk: A1 do you want to second the resolution?
Krupski: I will second the resolution. = Aye
Larsen: Nay, based on the fact that if the special bay constable will not
agree to do it then the burden will fall on the tax payer rather then the
applicant to do it.
Krupski: The r~solution has that the Bay Constable has to do it. If he doesn't
then.
Bredemeyer: What do we have inspection fees for. And they are going up.
Henry:Ayes
John: Ayes
JEff: Nay
~ATCH
SEE SEC
LINE
NO. 0~0