HomeMy WebLinkAboutTR-08/19/2015 John M.Bredemeyer III President � A -®UP�® - Town Hall Annex
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• Michael J.Domino,Vice-President � •
P.O.Box 1179
James F.King,Trustee Southold,New York 11971-0959
Dave Bergen,Trustee ct,'
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Charles J. Sanders,Trustee = _ecn®U Y I,'1'� Fax(631) 765-6641
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BOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
Minutes RECIIVED
Wednesday, August 19, 2015 SEP 1 7 2015C.3:19ortA
5:30 PM Sou •o Towalbrklvia
Present Were: John Bredemeyer, President
Michael Domino, Vice-President
Jim King, Trustee
Dave Bergen, Trustee
Elizabeth Cantrell, Senior Clerk_Typist
Lori Hulse, Assistant Town Attorney
CALL MEETING TO ORDER
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
NEXT FIELD INSPECTION: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 8:00 AM
NEXT TRUSTEE MEETING: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 5:30 PM
WORK SESSIONS: Monday, September,14, 2015 at 5:30 PM at Downs Farm, and on
Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 5:00 PM at the Main Meeting
Hall
MINUTES: Approve Minutes of July 22, 2015.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Welcome to the August, 2015, regular meeting of the Town
Trustees. This evening we seem to have a much bigger attendance for speaking at
public hearings than usual, so I would request that you kindly try to keep your comments
as succinct as possible and to five minutes or less if you could possibly.
Also for your information, some items have been postponed due to lack of
information before the Board, or an applicant's request to postpone the matter because
they could not attend the hearing. Those postponements appear on page seven going
into page eight. They are listed as follows:-
Number ten, McCarthy Management, Inc., on behalf of 850 PRESIDENT LLC
requests a Wetland Permit to construct a two-story, single-family residence consisting of
a 45'x25' dwelling with a 16'x21' attached-garage; a 32.5'x20.5'first floor deck; and an
8'x13.5' second floor deck; install a sanitary system and concrete retaining walls with top
of wall to be at elevation 9.0; add +/-300 cubic yards of clean fill to be trucked in from an
approved upland site; and install a driveway using pervious materials. Located: 7165
New Suffolk Road, New Suffolk, SCTM# 117-5-31, has been postponed.
Board of Trustees 2 August 19, 2015
Number eleven, Derek N. Bossen on behalf of LISA GILLOOLY requests a
Wetland Permit to remove existing wood deck surrounding the existing ±12' x±32'
swimming pool; construct a new 1,550sq.ft. permeable patio with retaining walls around
pool using approximately 60 cubic yards of bank run; construct a 260sq.ft. paver
walkway; install a 9'x9' hot tub adjacent to an existing deck on seaward side of dwelling;
install an 80' long wood picket fence, and a +/-30' long split-rail fence along the King
Street property line; re-grade area to provide for drainage landward of pool into a
constructed French drain; and re-vegetate area using native species and plants
appropriate for the area. Located: 450 Harbor Road, Orient, SCTM#27-4-7, has been
postponed.
And number 12, Charles Southard on behalf of CHRISTOPHER ARIENS
requests a Wetland Permit to demolish existing dwelling, decks and detached garage;
construct new two-story 3,035sq.ft. dwelling with attached garage, including a 48'x24'
irregularly shaped decking attached to dwelling; and a proposed stone driveway.
Located: 455 MacDonald Crossing, Laurel, SCTM# 145-4-17, has been postponed.
So for your information, if you are here to speak to any one of those items, they
will not be held.
For those of you not familiar with the meetings, the agendas are up on the
lectern. Help yourself to an agenda. Also in an effort to keep the meeting moving
along so as many of you can participate in the public hearings as possible, there are
certain actions the Board have already reviewed. They are administrative in nature,
they are minor in nature, that we have already conducted in worksession and on
field inspections, and we will be acting on those as a group, for those projects that
are approvable and that do not need modification. So we'll handle those as a group
to expedite the meeting process.
So without further ado, we'll get into the agenda. I'll take a motion to hold the
next field inspection Wednesday, September 9th, 2015, at 8:00 AM.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: So moved.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Move to hold the next Trustee meeting
Wednesday, September 16th, 2015, at 5:30 PM, in the main meeting
room. Motion?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So moved.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Second?
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: And to hold work sessions on Monday, September 14th,
at 5:30 PM at Downs Farms and Wednesday September 16th, at 5:00 PM at the
main meeting hall.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: So moved.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Is there a second?
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: A Motion to approve the Minutes of July 22nd.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll make that motion to approve them.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I'll second that motion. All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
Board of Trustees 3 August 19, 2015
I. MONTHLY REPORT:
The Trustees monthly report for July 2015. A check for
$3,725.16 was forwarded to the Supervisor's Office for the
General Fund.
II. PUBLIC NOTICES:
Public Notices are posted on the Town Clerk's Bulletin Board for
review.
III. STATE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY REVIEWS:
RESOLVED that the Board of Trustees of the Town of Southold hereby finds that the
following applications more fully described in Section VI Public Hearings Section of the
Trustee agenda dated Wednesday, August 19, 2015, are classified as Type II Actions
pursuant to SEQRA Rules and Regulations, and are not subject to further review under
SEQRA:
Peggy Heller&Anne Wyden SCTM#26-2-39.1
Andreas Karacostas, do Theo Ermogenous SCTM# 135-1-2
South Dyer LLC, do Reginald Tuthill SCTM# 17-6-14.2
C&L Realty, Inc. SCTM#56-6-3.4
William & Iva Felix SCTM# 136-1-39
Richard Trownsell, David Trownsell & Karen Feuerman SCTM#77-1-6
David & Stephanie Sack SCTM#83-1-5
The Boatyard at Founders Landing, Inc. SCTM#64-3-10 & 64-3-11
Narrow River Marine, do Maureen & Fred Dacimo SCTM#27-2-4
Ellen F. Emery 1999 Revocable Trust SCTM# 111-13-6
Lisa Gillooly SCTM#27-4-7
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: For the State Environmental Quality Reviews, to review
our actions under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, those items are
listed herein. The exception being that we have not made an
environmental determination with respect to the project of Southold Sunset LLC
since there is insufficient information in the file at this time to make an environmental
determination.
(UNIDENTIFIED VOICE): That means we can leave if we are in this list?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No, what it means, for those of you not
familiar with the State Environmental Quality Review Act,
actions based on their scope and the likelihood that they'll
have an impact on the environment, have to be reviewed under
that state law. It's an umbrella regulation that controls
everything we are doing. Actually what it merely states is these
actions, which are usually related to the construction or
modification of a single-family residence, are considered a
lesser type of action because the number of impacts and the
associated environmental impacts with this type of construction
are easily mitigated or controlled through the permitting
process. But the process does not fully end until after the
Board of Trustees 4 August 19, 2015 .
Board listens to public input at the public hearing and then
makes a determination. It merely states that we have done a
review of the paperwork involved and according to the state
classification the environmental review for the purposes of the
state environmental review law has ended at this time. But we'll
continue to review this during the public hearing, and the Board
has to take into consideration the requirements of the Town
Wetland Act or if it's a proposal that involves the Coastal
Erosion Hazard Act, we also have to include that. So the process
doesn't end there, it just continues.
(UNIDENTIFIED VOICE): Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: You're welcome.
IV. RESOLUTIONS - ADMINISTRATIVE PERMITS:
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: As I indicated, there are a number of items
on the agenda for which the Board has already performed field
inspections and conducted a thorough review at a public work
session, and so accordingly, under Item IV, I would move items
one through five under Resolutions for Administrative Permits as
a group. I would move they be approved. They are listed as
follows:
Number one, DAVID KRUPNICK & LOWELL BLUMENTHAL request an
Administrative Permit to remove existing concrete stoop on
seaward side of dwelling and construct an 8'x22' stoop with two
(2) 18"wide steps to ground. Located: 880 Deep Hole Drive,
Mattituck. SCTM# 115-12-13
Number two, HENRY KAMINER requests an Administrative Permit
for a Ten (10)Year Maintenance Permit to hand-cut the Common
Reed (Phragmites australis)to not less than 12" in height by
hand, on an as needed basis. Located: 130 Midway Road,
Southold. SCTM# 90-1-8
Number three, Henry Kaminer on behalf of DAVID SCHAB
requests an Administrative Permit for a Ten (10) Year
Maintenance Permit to hand-cut the Common Reed (Phragmites
australis) to not less than 12" in height by hand, on an as
needed basis. Located: 250 Midway Road, Southold. SCTM#90-1-9
Number four, ANTHONY IENNA requests an Administrative
Permit for a Ten (10)Year Maintenance Permit to hand-cut the
Common Reed (Phragmites australis)to not less than 12" in
height by hand, on an as needed basis. Located: 500 Glenn Road,
Southold. SCTM# 78-2-23
And number five, PAUL & MARGARET KOBALKA request an
Administrative Permit to install 61/2 ft. High fencing along the .
eastern side of property line and to end approximately 20' away
from the top of bluff. Located: 695 Pettys Drive, Orient.
SCTM# 14-2-23
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Item number six, Creative Environmental
Board of Trustees 5 August 19, 2015
Design on behalf of NICK GIAKOUMIS requests an Administrative
Permit to selectively prune for plant health the existing
vegetation and trees of at least 6" caliper up to a height of
18'; to remove one dead tree; and for a Ten (10)Year
Maintenance Permit to hand-cut the Common Reed (Phragmites
australis)to not less than 12" in height by hand, on an as
needed basis. Located: 1025 Westview Drive, Mattituck.
SCTM# 139-1-4.1
The Board has conducted several field inspections on the
site, as requested by several applicants and interested parties,
and after a subsequent field inspection by Trustee King and
revisiting the application at worksession, the Board feels that
the cutting and pruning of trees of the six-inch caliper is not
appropriate at this site since it's an undeveloped site, and a
comprehensive maintenance plan and environmental buffers are
appropriate to the discussion for the development of this lot,
but since the invasive common phragmites has over taken a
portion of the immediate waterfront, the Board has discussed
this and feels the aspect of the permit to have ten-year
maintenance to cut phragmites within 12 inches, provided no high
tide bush or other wetland vegetation is damaged, is appropriate
for this site. Accordingly I would move that we approve this
application for a ten-year maintenance to cut phragmites within
12 inches with the stipulation that no other vegetation on the
property is cut, particularly the high tide bush that is
interspersed with the phragmites. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE DOMINO:Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made and second, all in favor?
(ALL AYES).
•
V. APPLICATIONS FOR EXTENSIONS/TRANSFERS/ADMINISTRATIVE
AMENDMENTS:
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Also in keeping with trying to move things
along here, we have applications for permit extensions where
there have been no changes in the conditions from the initial
permit issuance, and for administrative amendments which are
minor changes to proposals, all these projects were reviewed and
inspected and discussed at a public worksession and were found
to be acceptable. Accordingly I would move under Item V, I
would move to approve all items one through five under Item V.
That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Discussion on that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Discussion. Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: On the last one, number five, didn't we say
open-grate decking?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. So let's pull out number five.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I stand corrected. At this time I'll
withdraw that motion and amend to approve items one through four
at this time, having reviewed them, and we'll discuss item
number five. They are listed as follow:
Board of Trustees 6 August 19, 2015
Number one, PAUL GROBEN requests a One-Year Extension to
Wetland Permit#8277, as issued on August 21, 2013. Located:
3705 Wells Road, Peconic. SCTM#86-2-13
Number two, ILSE TROMBONE requests a One-Year Extension to
Wetland Permit#8276, as issued on August 21, 2013. Located:
. 9180 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue. SCTM# 118-6-5.1
Number three, VIVIAN V. EYRE requests the Last One-Year
Extension to Wetland Permit#7865A, as issued on August 22, ,
2012. Located: 759 Orchard Road, Southold. SCTM#66-2-11
And number four, Fairweather& Brown Associates on behalf
of ISLE OF CEDARS LLC requests an Administrative Amendment to
Wetland Permit#7774 and Coastal Erosion Permit#7774C to
install four(4) courses of cement block rather than three
courses. Located: 2450 Peter's Neck Road, Orient. SCTM#32-1-8
Is there a second to that motion?
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Trustee King, would you like to lead the
discussion?
TRUSTEE KING: Number five, PHILIP MASCIA requests an
Administrative Amendment to Wetland Permit#8430 to increase the
width of the proposed dock from 3' to 4'; and to use untreated
lumber in lieu of open-grate decking on the catwalk. Located:
850 Oak Avenue, Southold. SCTM#77-1-5
They wanted to change from a three to a four-foot width. I
don't think anybody had an issue with that. And to use untreated
lumber instead of the open-grate decking. But what we would like
to see, I think it was the first 20 feet or something like that,
to have open-grate and then they can go to the untreated lumber.
The first ten feet from the bulkhead, seaward of the bulkhead is
to remain open-grate, and the rest can be untreated lumber. That
would be my motion.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. Is there a second?
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I'll second that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: At this time I'll take a motion to go off
the approval agenda and into the public hearing agenda.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll make that motion.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Second?
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
VI. PUBLIC HEARINGS
AMENDMENTS:
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Amendments, number one, number one, Robert
Saetta on behalf of PEGGY HELLER &ANNE WYDEN request an
Amendment to Wetland Permit#4489 to remove the existing
Board of Trustees 7 August 19, 2015
screened porch and construct a new 27'x24' screened porch
attached to dwelling. Located: 1145 Major Pond Road, Orient.
SCTM#26-2-39.1
The LWRP coordinator found this to be consistent. The CAC
did not do an inspection, therefore made no recommendation.
Trustee Bredemeyer did a field inspection on the 11th of August
and noted that all the work proposed was within the existing
footprint, that there was sufficient lawn and buffer, that the
project if approved would not need a silt fence nor a berm.
Is there anyone here to speak to this application?
(Negative response).
Any questions or comments from the Board?
(Negative response).
Since this is straightforward, I make a motion to close this hearing.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. Is there a second?
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I make a motion to approve this application as
submitted.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
WETLAND AND COASTAL EROSION PERMITS:
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The next application under Wetland and
Coastal Erosion Permits, number one, Allen Glenn Bernhard, PE on
behalf of ANDREAS KARACOSTAS, do THEO ERMOGENOUS requests a
Wetland Permit and a Coastal Erosion Permit to remove existing
bulkhead and two returns and replace with new 104' long steel
sheet pile bulkhead with two (2) 15' returns to be installed 18"
higher than existing; realign existing stone armoring as
required for construction; backfill disturbed area with 200
cubic yards of sand from an offsite location; and re-vegetate
any bare areas with Cape American beach grass to be planted 12"
on center.
Located:21275 Soundview Avenue, Southold. SCTM# 135-1-2
This application has been deemed consistent under the
Town's Local Waterfront Revitalization Program. The Trustees
during the course of field inspection raised two questions. One,
does the applicant wish to include the existing stairs and
rebuild as part of the project, which typically would occur with
construction of this type. And also we would have questions
about how the site will be accessed for the construction. .
The CAC supports the application with the condition the
bulkhead not be raised 18 inches or the applicant be required to
demonstrate the raising of the bulkhead will not affect the
adjoining property owners. The Board of Trustees has raised
concerns about raising bulkheads previously. This application
is an example of how bulkheads have eliminated the beach. So
Board of Trustees 8 August 19, 2015
that has been supported with a commentary from the CAC.
Is there anyone here who wishes to speak on behalf of this
application?
MR. ERMOGENOUS: My name is Theodore Ermogenous, I'm the owner of
the property. Part owner. There was a question --
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Do you wish to include the replacement of
the stairs to the beach as part of the application, since
typically they have to be dismantled?
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Yes, we will replace the stairs. We didn't
realize we needed additional permit for that. So yes, we would
replace the stairs.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: We can handle that during the permitting
process. We would need a set of plans for that. But that we can
handle. Did you have any questions?
MR. ERMOGENOUS: No. I didn't understand, you said something
about the height?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The Board did review the height, and, 18
inches in the field, and I don't think we had any issue with it.
We did consider that request on this job. It was not an issue in
this case for the Board.
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Okay. Very good.
TRUSTEE KING: I think the biggest question is how will you
access the site.
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Unfortunately, we have to access with a barge.
And there is a contractor that our neighbor gave, said
conditionally that he will give us access to go through his
property. So once we settle on the contractor, we will probably
through a barge, but there is possibility to go through the
neighbor's property.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Very good. Thank you, very much. That's
important information for the Board to know because if you go
through public property you have to secure permission and a
bond, and also we don't want to have any damage to properties
during the course of construction. Thank you.
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Right.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Also if you are going to use the neighbor's
property, we would need a letter in the file that would indicate
that you have their authorization to use that property for the
construction so that if there was a question during the course
of construction that came to our attention, we would have that
in the file.
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Okay. Should I give the letter once we decide
that's the route we are taking, the neighbor's, right?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Yes.
MR. ERMOGENOUS: Because most probably we go through the barge.
TRUSTEE KING: I think the barge is the best bet.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I believe that would be acceptable. I don't
think we have a problem with that. Any further questions or
discussion?
(Negative response).
Hearing none, I make a motion to close the hearing in this
Board of Trustees 9 August 19, 2015
matter.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I would make a motion to approve this
application subject to the submission of a set of plans
indicating the stairs that are to be replaced. And that if the _
applicant is to use the access for the construction from the
neighboring property, that we have a letter in the file
indicating so. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number two, Suffolk Environmental Consulting,
Inc. on behalf of SOUTH DYER LLC, do REGINALD TUTHILL requests
a Wetland Permit and a Coastal Erosion Permit for a Ten (10)
Year Maintenance Permit to dredge 3,200 cubic yards of privately
owned clean bottomland to maintain tidal flushing; dredge spoil
to be deposited on fronting bay beach. Located: 21920 Route 25,
Orient. SCTM# 17-6-14.2
This was reviewed under the LWRP and they found it to be
consistent, noting that Orient Harbor is in a New York State
significant coastal fish and wildlife area. As such, dredging
operations can impact nesting birds or the ability for finfish
to propagate in the area. So what that means is there is a
dredge window imposed upon all dredging within New York State
coastal fish and wildlife areas. It is also recommended the
Board require turbidity controls during the dredging operations.
The CAC resolved to support the application.
The Board did go out and looked at this. Is there anybody
here to speak on behalf of this application?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk Environmental Consulting
for the applicant South Dyer LLC property. The important part of
all this is that the reason for the dredging is to increase
tidal flow into and out of the creek, to support an ongoing and
successful oyster culture operation. It is a creek that has been
previously dredged. The bottom land of the creek extending to
the mouth at Orient Harbor is entirely privately owned. The
spoil site would be by beach nourishment. We anticipate the work
to occur during the winter months when there are no nesting
shore birds. The material deposited on the beach will be
stabilized by a silt fence and the like. We anticipate the
dredging will take place by clamshell bucket, on barge. We are
perfectly amenable to doing some sort of silt boom across the
mouth of it to control any turbidity. We think the soil
conditions are good and the project as proposed simply seeks to
restore the symmetry, if you will, of the creek to its previous
condition, which will support greater tidal flushing. That is
the substance of our application.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Bruce, where are you with the DEC on this and
Board of Trustees 10 August 19, 2015
the Army Corps?
MR. ANDERSON: We have filed with the DEC and we filed with the
Army Corps. We filed with the New York Department of State. DEC
has responded back with a letter. They are seeking a survey,
which we will provide them with that. We'll also provide them
with a copy of the deed. We have a certified copy of the deed
from the County Clerk's office. And they also wanted evidence
that the creek had been dredged. And we are able to obtain old
photographs, the old Kodachrome prints by Kodak dating to October,
1966, which shows the actual dredging operations occurring where
we are proposing to conduct today. So pending, we are simply
awaiting receipt of the survey for this. And that should
resolve the DEC.
Army Corps of Engineers, we asked them to either give us a
statement that we are not subject to their review because it's
not a waterway of the United States of America being privately
owned, or in the alternative, give us a permit. We have not heard
back from them. Nor have we heard back from the Department of
State.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay, thank you. One of the reasons I'm asking
about DEC is I'm looking at your proposal here and your survey,
and it looks like your proposed dredge area goes outside of the
entrance, which would be into state waters, which means you are
technically dredging state bottoms, and obviously need their
permission to do so.
MR. ANDERSON: That's correct. Right. Well, the survey will shed
light on that. We are just not there yet.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: And I see your dredge spoil area is on your own
property there.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: The other item,just for informational purposes,
regarding dredge windows, the Trustees don't dictate dredge
windows. That's usually dictated by the state, and significant
coastal fish and wildlife areas, you had mentioned the winter
months, it ends December 15th, the dredge windows, traditionally
with the DEC, with creeks that are located within significant
coastal fish and wildlife areas. If it's not within that area,
the dredge windows end January 15th. That's not because of
birds. That's because of fish. So I just want to prep you for ,
that. Again, we are not going to dictate dredge windows. That's
not part of our purview here. But I just wanted to let you know
that is typical with what the DEC does with dredge windows.
MR. ANDERSON: I merely mention that in response to LWRP
coordinator's issue.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. That's why I brought it up also.
MR. ANDERSON: Appreciate it.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Was there anybody else in the audience who
wanted to speak regarding this application?
(Negative response).
Was there any questions from the Board or any other questions
from the Board regarding the application?
Board of Trustees 11 August 19, 2015
(Negative response).
How did the Board feel about a turbidity screen?The county does
not use them when they do dredge interfaces. This is a dredge
that is going way beyond the interface. It's going well inside
the creek.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I mean, this is where I don't mind speaking
some personal history. I used to eel that extensively and I can
tell you the grain of sand are rather hard and course, because I
had to sharpen a sand spear every time I'd go home. It's mostly
course material. Unless the DEC or Army Corps proposed a grain
size analysis which indicates its findings, I don't see where it's
an issue.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I agree. If there are no other comments, I'll
make a motion to close this public hearing.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I would make a motion to approve the application
of South Dyer LLC, noting that it has been found consistent
under the LWRP.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. Is there a second?
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you.
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, very much. Have a good evening.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Next application, Michael Kimack on behalf
of SOUTHOLD SUNSETS, LLC requests a Wetland Permit and a Coastal
Erosion Permit to demolish existing one-story dwelling, decks,
enclosed porch, concrete walk, foundation and shed; construct a
raised 1,600sq.ft. two-story dwelling on a piling system with
the first floor elevation at 16ft., and a 1,104sq.ft. open deck
covered porch along two sides with ±18'wide stairs to grade for
a total first floor footprint of 2,704sq.ft.; a ±6'x5' side
entry platform with 5'wide steps to grade; a 158.6sq.ft. second
floor open deck; abandon existing sanitary system and install
new sanitary system; install a storm management system; install
a buried 500 gallon propane tank; and install buried electric
service. Located: 4200 Kenny's Road, Southold. SCTM#54-4-3
Before we open the hearing, I want to disclose with you
some aspects of process for this application. Since there are a
number of items that we have that have not been completed in the
application and the applicant Michael Kimack on behalf of
Southold Sunsets LLC was unfortunately unable to meet with the
Board during field inspection, and the Local Waterfront Revitalization
Program coordinator was not able to submit his report at this
time, to try to tie that all together, this application involves
an application for a town wetland permit which chiefly deals
with protecting marshes, wetlands, beaches in the coastal
wetland area, as well as the town adoption, the town rules where
Board of Trustees 12 August 19, 2015
we enforce the New York State Coastal Erosion Hazard Act. And
for us to formulate a proper public process leading to or not
leading to a permit, as the case might be, we have to receive
certain elements in this process. One is a completed
application. And there will be some questions from the Board
concerning this since we were unable to address them during
field inspection with Mr. Kimack. We also need to have a report
from the CAC, which I'll check on. We also need to have that
report, which we don't have, from the LWRP coordinator. So I
just wanted to try to give you an overview. We have multiple
elements to complete this application.
Additionally, because the environmental review for this
project under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, that
was the thing we did at the beginning of the meeting, well, the
environmental review for this project has not been concluded
because during the office review of the long environmental
assessment form it appears there were at least two, possibly
three, environmental impacts that were moderately large for
which the Board may wish to discuss further.
These impacts, if they were sufficiently large, could lead
the Board to have a separate environmental determination under
the State Environmental Quality Review Act, even including
possibly declaring it a positive declaration of environmental
significance and causing some form of impact statement process.
So the environmental review itself cannot go forward until we
get some of this additional information in.
So I just want to try to explain that. I know it's kind of
confusing. So that's where that stands.
The CAC supported the application with the condition that
the height of the pilings comply with FEMA standards. And with
the absence of the report of the LWRP coordinator, I would go to
the Trustees field report. We made the observation that the
entirety of the project was within the coastal erosion area. It
is, by definition, it is located both in the definition of the
town wetlands code as well as in the Coastal Erosion Hazard Act,
the project is located on the beach, and it's also on a primary
dune. The project is also within the dunal boundary of the
adjacent public property, the public beach, and that will fit
into the environmental review for the project, since we have
public facilities that may be impacted by the proposal.
The Board, at least based on our observations in the field
and our experience with coastal storms, feels that the project
as proposed is probably going to be subject to severe erosional
damage if we have another coastal storm with the impacts that we
previously associated with Irene and Sandy, something that we've
lived through and I think we still have nightmares about.
Is there anyone here who wishes to speak on behalf of the
Application?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Mark Schwartz, architectfor the project.
Mike is away on vacation, I'm kind of filling in. I'm not
really sure of what all this background stuff is but I can try
Board of Trustees 13 August 19, 2015
to answer any questions you may have. We are looking to build a
two-bedroom sixteen-hundred square foot house on this property,
with a wraparound porch. I understand the coastal erosion hazard
line is, we are in that zone. I don't know exactly what that
means, but.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: What it means is there is an entire code,
Chapter 111 of the Town Code, which the Southold Town is one of
the communities that adopted it. It draws from Environmental
Conservation Law, and we are subject to its rules and
regulations as the permit administrator of this Board, and we
have to abide by the requirements of that code. Straight up,
that code prohibits construction on a beach and it also
prohibits construction in the nearshore area, and it doesn't
allow for new construction in the primary dune. And in fact it
would only allow modifications and a non-major addition for a
structure in a primary dune. Now, this is not only a primary dune
but as far as a natural protective feature, this is a seaward
facing vegetated primary dune. Unfortunately without Mr. Kimack
here, I know it's a bit unfair for you representing him, because
it begs the question did anybody read the code. You know, it's
really, for the Board, it's a non-starter because we would be
prohibited from actually entertaining any kind of approval under
the Coastal Erosion Hazard Act. Under the town wetlands code,
the project could receive a review, but definitionally, based on
the Town Code, the Board is obligated to protect beaches, and
based on the definition of the code, the beach goes to the point
that the unconsolidated sandy material, what we typically think
of as our open sandy beach, it has a vegetation law, and if you
draw 100 feet from the beginnings of the American beach grass
that naturally occupies the vegetated dune, that means that more
than likely about 95% or close to 100% of the property is
definitionally also beach, which the Board has to protect. So
that's where we are by definition and by code. The other thing is
the Board will probably need additional information, so we don't
know if you are the one to request additional information from.
But if the Board were to consider a wetland permit, the issue of
setbacks from the wetland for adjacent houses we would have to
get information as how far they are set back, and since the distances
are fairly great we would probably have to have that information
compiled by yourself as a licensed architect or an engineer or
land surveyor. Because determinations under the Wetland Code
also requires us to take into consideration the adjoining property
setbacks. I think that covers my shopping list. I don't know if the
Board has anything to add.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I would just like to hear public comment at
this point.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Likewise. Do you have any questions?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, I understand.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Any additional comments, if people want to
come up to the lectern, please identify yourself for the record
before you speak.
Board of Trustees 14 August 19, 2015
MR. MAVELLIA: Members, my name is Dominic Mavellia, I reside at
205 North Sea Drive. I'm being represented by counsel, William
Goggins. He could not be here. I'm in opposition of this
application. That and the fact that the LWRP form has not been
complete, I would ask the Board to adjourn this hearing. You
know, you look at this application, you scratch your head and
say what were they thinking. I mean, when I bought this house,
and I live adjacent to the property, I was told that any of the
shoreline properties would have to be setback, and by virtue of
the fact this property could not be setback, because the
neighbor behind him, his property line is very close, it can't
be setback. So by virtue of moving in the other direction, you
are cutting into the dunes. So to me it's unacceptable. If they
raise it up, it's a visual eyesore and impedes on our ocean
view. So that being said, we are opposing and I would like the
Board members to think strongly about this application. Thank
you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you, very much. Just for the record,
we have a letter from your attorney William Goggins, a two-page
letter, that we'll incorporate into the record. This letter, by
reference to your comments, as well as we do have your letter
as well, which we'll enter into the record. Thank you.
MR. MAVELLIA: Thank you.
MR. CASTIGLIONE: My name is John Castiglione, I live at 3010
Kenny's Road. I don't think I have much to add beyond what has
already been said. I'm certainly not as qualified as you all are
to speak on the adherence to code. I'll try to be brief.
think there are a lot of problems with this application beyond
the issues of wetlands and coastal erosions. I'm happy to talk
about them if you are interested, but to focus on the issue, I
would just raise, above and beyond the dunes, which are not
large at all, and that's been discussed, there is a lot of
shrubbery around the property which I think also has a role to
play in preventing erosion and some of the other environmental
issues here. There are protected areas for plovers, not all that
many yards up the beach, and so while I'm sure that is subject
to various codes and so forth, I think that should be considered
as well. Every dune that comes out I think will effect that as
well. As far as the buried oil tank is concerned, again, I'm
sure that is subject to laws and regulations that I'm not as
familiar with as you are, but that seems to be a terrible idea
literally sitting on the beach. I know I and probably a lot of
people here have propane tanks that are above the ground and I
don't see why this application has a buried oil tank on the
beach, yards from protected land, not all that far from Great
Pond. So to the extent that is up for the Board's review, I
would ask you to take a look at that. Again, I'm not as
qualified as everyone else here to speak on the code issues and
regulations, I think that's all been said, but I'll ask the
Board to take a hard look at this. And I think someone else said
it's a head scratcher. I think it should be a non-starter, the
Board of Trustees 15 August 19, 2015
proposal as written here. I'm happy to speak about other
elements I think are a concern, including the size of the
property and the enjoyment of others on the beach, the sound
emanating from the house impacting enjoyment on beach, things
like that. But again, if that's not at issue here, I don't need
to get into it now.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Again, for your information there
are code provisions specifically dealing with buried propane
tank that the Board will have to take up during the course of
the application process. Thank you.
MR. CASTIGLIONE: Fair enough, thank you.
MR. KATRAMADOS: My name is John Katramados, 4070 Kenny's Road.
I'm next to the proposed building they are going to do. I live
in this house over 26 years. 26 years we have two big storms,
and the parking lot was removed 25 feet setback to Littons
Avenue, because it was destroyed. All the houses in the front
was flooded. This particular house, the old house which they are
going to demolish, was full of water, and I have a newspaper
dated, this is the Suffolk Life Newsday, February 5, 1997, which
they describe exactly the condition of the Kenny's Beach and the
houses around it. Three houses was removed about more than 100
feet back to the North Sea Drive. So I don't know, you have to
think about it before we approve this proposal. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you, very much. And also, Mr.
Katramados, I have your letter in the file, we'll incorporate
that by reference into the file. Thank you.
MR. KATRAMADOS: Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Is there anyone else who wishes to speak to
this application?
(Negative response).
Okay, hearing no further discussion at this time, because the
Board requires additional information and will be communicating
additional needs with the applicant, I would make a motion to
table this application at this time, pending further information
coming before the Board.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I'll second that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
WETLAND PERMITS:
TRUSTEE KING: Number one, under wetland permits, Michael A.
Kimack on behalf of KEVIN & PAULA FLAHERTY request a Wetland
Permit for the demolition of an east side extension and majority
of its foundation; construct a one-story 298sq.ft. addition with
the installation of a drywell to contain roof runoff for new
addition; as-built 90' long fieldstone retaining wall of varying
height with steps located approximately 10' landward of easterly
side of existing bulkhead; and as-built 769sq.ft. above grade
stone patio with attached +/-20' long retaining wall. Located:
1250 Lupton Point Road, Mattituck. SCTM# 115-11-12
Board of Trustees 16 August 19, 2015
I believe this was tabled from last month, if I remember
right. It was found consistent and inconsistent. The
inconsistency was because the stone patio and retaining wall
were built without a permit. It was tabled last month because
we wanted to know where the sanitary system was.
The CAC voted to support the application. And I went out
and looked at it. It's pretty straightforward. The septic system
is on the landward side of the house. I think it's probably out
of our jurisdiction. That was the only issue we had.
' Is there anyone here to comment on this application?
(Negative response).
Board comments?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: No, that was the only question we had.
TRUSTEE KING: So all our questions were answered. There was the
existing groin that was supposed to be removed. It has been
removed, so I don't have any issues with it. No other comments,
I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the application as
it has been submitted.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER:Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Number two, J.M.O. Environmental Consulting on
behalf of FISHERS ISLAND DEVELOPMENT CORP., do FISHERS ISLAND
CLUB requests a Wetland Permit to enlarge an existing water
storage pond used for irrigation by excavating approximately
6,670 cubic yards of material to a depth of approximately-5'.
The resultant material shall be trucked to an upland site for
disposal. The disturbed area shall then be restored by
utilizing native plantings. Located: 25185 East End Road,
Fishers Island. SCTM#`1-1-4
The LWRP coordinator found this to be consistent. The CAC
did not visit the site and did not make a recommendation. The
Trustees visited the site on June 17th, and noted that the
project already had a New York State DEC Wetlands approval.
Is there anyone here to speak to this application?
MR. JUST: Good evening. Glenn Just, JMO Environmental
Consulting, if there are any questions from the Board.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I would like to note, before we address any
questions, there are two letters received August 12th, one from
attorney Barbara Rasmussen. I won't read the entire letter but
it characterizes --she suggests that her client request that
there be a-condition imposed, that there is no significant
increase in the amount of water used for irrigation, and that if
in the future there is plan for significantly increased use,
such increase shall not occur until Mr. Andrews, her client,
and/or all surrounding residents receive confirmation from a
hydrologist that it will have no negative impact on their water
Board of Trustees 17 August 19, 2015
supply. Also received, August 12th, a letter from JMO
Environmental Consulting which references a letter from a
hydrologist, a Mr. Wayne H. Bugden. That letter, if I may
paraphrase it, received also on the 12th: Given the moderately
high permeability rate of the shallow aquifer, the minor
anticipated changes in the pond's water level and the fact that
the expected rates of plumbing to and from the pond are not
expected to differ significantly from current conditions, I
anticipate no significant impact to other wells in the vicinity.
Mr. Bugden is a hydrologist, as I mentioned before. Any other
questions or comments from the Board?
(Negative response).
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Any other comments from the audience?
(Negative response).
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a motion to close this
hearing.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Second, All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I'll make a motion to approve this application
as submitted, noting that it's not within the scope of Trustee
duties to develop conditions to a permit.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I would ask for a modification of that. Just
that we approve the permit. Approve the application.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Just approve the application, and the
applicant and neighbors can have further discussion off this
record.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I'll amend the motion to reflect Trustee
Bergen's concerns. Make a motion to approve the application.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. Is there a second?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
MR. JUST: Thank you, very much. Have a good evening.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Next application, number three, Garrett A.
Strang, Architect on behalf of C&L REALTY, INC. requests a
Wetland Permit for the existing ±117' x ±29' south-side building
and to replace a 48'x29' section of the building; to repair or
replace existing concrete ramp, walkway and ±5' deck; and for
the installation of gutters to leaders to drywells on the
building, and in accordance with Chapter 236 of the Town
Code-Stormwater Management. Located: 61600 Route 25, Southold.
SCTM#56-6-3.4
This application is a re-filing of a project that was
previously permitted by the Board of Town Trustees and
determined to be exempt under the LWRP.
The CAC supports the application, however the site plan is
not accurate and should be brought up to date. I'm not entirely
sure what that means, if Peter wants to make a representation on
that.
The Trustees looked at the paperwork, we've been to the
Board of Trustees 18 August 19, 2015
site, it's essentially the same as we have seen before. It's an
upgrade with drainage improvements to an existing building in a
marine commercial zone.
Is there anyone here who wishes to speak on behalf of this
application?
MS. SEPENOSKI: Catherine Sepenoski, I represent my parents and
the C&L property. I appreciate that you are taking this under
review again. You were kind enough to issue this permit, which
is still in pristine shape. We got your permission and we have
put in, Garrett Strang put in the application to the Building
Department so that we can make the repairs. We did everything
according to how we are supposed to by application. So my
sister-in-law's ex-husband, Michael Verity, the head of the
Building Department, has withheld the permit for two years. We
still do not know why. It is a pre-existing, nonconforming
building, but it is certainly a building that should certainly
be able to be maintained and taken care of and part of the
vital waterfront area. I'm still trying to find out why
we don't have a permit. I would like to know when the code
changed, because I was told I might have to go for a variance for
this.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Unfortunately, I think we are getting far
afield of what the Trustees do here. So the questions you are
articulating for us, we do not, as a matter of ordinary course,
we don't get involved with the independent determinations of the
Building Department and the Zoning Board of Appeals. Actually,
as a matter of fact, we have taken this out of sequence of
typically what we ordinarily process, will go to Building and
Zoning, but because of our familiarity with the project, we felt
that if your line of inquiry and the questions you are
seemingly asking us now are posed to the Building Department and
Zoning officials that you can possibly clear up and get
clarification on that track, and that way the Board's
determination might be closer at hand for you instead of us
having you wait to come to this Board. So we are actually
trying to expedite this.
MS. SEPENOSKI: I appreciate that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: But as far as being able to help you with
those other concerns, this is not part of our public hearing.
MS. SEPENOSKI: Well, this application went in because there was
damage due to Hurricane Sandy. It's followed by two horrific
winters with blizzards, and at this point the building is
suffering more and more, and if this is the first step, which is
why we took it in the first place to get your permission to
repair it and maintain it, I'll continue to pursue the other
matter. So I appreciate your taking me out of turn and
reconsidering.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Right. And you can check, but I think where
there are questions, if you have not gotten a response from the
Building Department, you should check with the Zoning officials,
you should check with them, because where there are questions of
Board of Trustees 19 August 19, 2015
determinations of the Building Department, Zoning Board is the
group that ordinarily makes determinations on those anyway.
MS. SEPENOSKI: I appreciate your input. Unfortunately there
has been no word at all. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Is there anyone else who wishes
•
to speak to this application?
(Negative response).
Any Board members? Any questions?
(Negative response).
Hearing none, I'll make a motion to close this hearing.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
With respect to this application, since we have taken this out
of sequence, but to further expedite it, I would move to table
the approval of this application until we see that any issues
that may lie between the Building or Zoning officials are
addressed before we grant final approval. So that's my motion,
to table the approval until we receive confirmation of
satisfying other departments. Motion made.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Discussion.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. Discussion.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: This was a permit that was previously granted by
this Board and my understanding is the application is the very same
as it was previously. So for myself, I'm comfortable to proceed
forward with a motion to grant the permit. That's just myself,
personally.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Of course, I made the motion. We don't have
second. So essentially until it gets seconded, it's lost.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: That's why I wanted to hop in there.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: You hopped in a little early, Dave. How does
the rest of the Board feel? Since we are taking it out of
sequence a little, I don't know, I'm a little uncomfortable, we
are trying to move it a bit so that way that they don't have a
two or three-month process before us.
TRUSTEE KING: When did we issue the first permit?
MS. SEPENOSKI: Two years ago. June 19.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: 2013.
TRUSTEE KING: That's when it was issued. Did you ever apply for
an extension?
MS. SEPENOSKI: I came in on the 19th, unfortunately I was told I
can't come in on the day of expiration.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: So it would have otherwise been routinely
extended. All right, I'll withdraw my motion. Dave, do you want
to put the motion forward? Because it would have just otherwise
gotten an extension. So, do you want to move to approve it?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Sure. I'll make a motion to approve the
application of Garrett Strang on behalf of C&L Realty as
described, noting that it's exempt under the LWRP.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I'll second that. All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
Board of Trustees 20 August 19, 2015
MS. SEPENOSKI: Gentleman, I appreciate your help.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number four, Nina Jordon on behalf of WILLIAM &
IVA FELIX requests a Wetland Permit to construct a +/-25'x25'
two-story addition onto the landward side of the existing
dwelling. Located: 760 Oak Street, Cutchogue. SCTM# 136-1-39
This was reviewed under the LWRP and found to be
consistent. The CAC resolved to support the application with the
condition of a non-turf buffer and drainage plan to contain the
roof runoff.
I did go out to take a look at this on behalf of the Board.
I noticed in the ZBA determination there was a request for
confirmation of the location of the cesspool, and that we also
would require that the project conform with Chapter 236, which
is the town drainage code, because on the plans here there is
nothing to show that.
So is there anybody here to speak on behalf of this
application?
MS. FELIX: I'm the owner, Iva Felix.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. Were you able to confirm the location
of the cesspool as required by ZBA determination, that it is
located as shown on the survey?
MS. FELIX: Yes. I just got a new survey.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. And as I alluded to, we do require
gutters leading to downspouts leading to drywells to address the
roof runoff under Chapter 236. So you would not have any problem
with doing that as part of this project?
MS. FELIX: It was not part of the project, but yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: It's a requirement.
MS. FELIX: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay, thank you. I did not have any questions
beyond that. Okay, is there anybody else here who would like to
speak for or against this application?
(Negative response).
Not seeing any, are there any questions or comments from the
Board?
(Negative response).
Not seeing any, I'll make a motion to close the public hearing.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll make a motion to approve the application of
William and Iva Felix with the addition of gutters and leaders
leading to drywells as required under Chapter 236, with a new
set of plans that would include those on the new set of plans.
That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
MS. FELIX: Thank you.
Board of Trustees 21 August 19, 2015
TRUSTEE KING: Number five, Nancy Dwyer Design Consulting on
behalf of RICHARD TROWNSELL, DAVID TROWNSELL & KAREN FEUERMAN
request a Wetland Permit to remove existing dwelling and
construct new one and one-half story, single-family dwelling
with a new 1,026sq.ft. foundation; 189sq.ft. deck on seaward
side; 365sq.ft. covered front entry deck; and abandon existing
sanitary system and install new sanitary system landward of
dwelling. Located: 980 Oak Avenue, Southold. SCTM# 77-1-6
This was found consistent with the LWRP. The LWRP
coordinator-- something we noticed in the field -- he
recommends that the Board addresses the future use of troughs,
in other words they are draining stormwater from the road into
the creek with concrete troughs. I don't know how we are going
to address it. And the CAC supports the application with the
condition of gutters, leaders and drywells to contain runoff.
Is there anyone here to speak behalf of or against this
Application?
MS. DWYER: I'm Nancy Dwyer on behalf of the Trownsell and
Feuerman families. The overall intention of the project was to
repair the existing dwelling after the damage that it incurred
during Hurricane Sandy. And in doing so we are required to lift
it according to FEMA regulations. And once we proposed to lift
it, we automatically needed Zoning approvals, and they have
suggested that we move the house into a more conforming
location.
I would like to clarify that it's actually a 336 square
foot covered front entry porch, not 365 square feet as it's
written.
TRUSTEE KING: Okay. I don't think we had a lot of questions
about it. I'm looking for gutters and leaders to drywells. I
don't see it. It's probably here somewhere. That would be a part
of this, gutters and leaders drywells.
Is there any need for hay bales during the demolition? I
don't think so. This is a pretty substantial sand buffer.
don't think it would be required.
Is there anybody else here to speak on behalf of or against
this application?
(Negative response).
Seeing none, I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the application as
it has been submitted. And with the stipulation there will be
gutters and leaders to drywells for roof runoff. That's my
motion.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made. I'll second that. All in
favor?
(ALL AYES).
Board of Trustees 22 August 19, 2015
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Number six, En-Consultants on behalf of DAVID &
STEPHANIE SACK requests a Wetland Permit to demolish and remove
existing one-story dwelling, deck, hot tub, and all other related
structures; construct new 2,060sq.ft. two-story, single-family dwelling
with attached garage and roof terrace; a 305sq.ft. swimming pool/spa;
a 330sq.ft. on-grade masonry pool patio; 270sq.ft. walkway/steps/deck
to pool, all located no closer than 50'from top of bluff; remove existing
sanitary system and construct new sanitary system; remove existing
driveway and install new grass paver block driveway; install pool
enclosure fencing and drainage system of leaders, gutters and drywells;
and establish a 1,035sq.ft. non-turf buffer to be planted with native
vegetation in place of existing lawn within 10' of bluff crest.
Located: 445 Glenn Court, Cutchogue. SCTM#83-1-5
The LWRP coordinator found this to be consistent. The CAC
resolved to support the application, however they noted that
given the size of the parcel and the proposed plan is an
overreach in terms of development in proximity to the bluff.
The Trustees did a field inspection on August 12th and
noted that the current bluff is well vegetated and appeared to
be so.
There is a, the ZBA granted an application on March 7th,
2014, subsequently revised April 15th, for the proposed house,
and listed six conditions. Number one, the existing vegetation
on the top of the bluff shall remain intact to limit soil
disturbance. Two, requested a ten-foot non-turf buffer landward
of the existing vegetation. Three, the existing abandoned
cesspool shall be pumped clean and filled with sand. Four,
existing stump already cut to grade in the rear yard shall not
be removed or disturbed. The purpose is to limit soil
disturbance. Five, heavy equipment such as excavators is
prohibited from being sited on the bluff side of the demolition
and excavation activities. Six, last term, the use of equipment
which emits low frequency vibrations, such as blasting or large
pile drivers is prohibited.
In addition, there is also a letter received August 5th from
Barbara Ripple. I won't read the entire letter but the concerns are
centered around stability of the bluff and fear of vibrations from
demolition will cause damage to neighboring basements.
And fear that the underground garage itself will cause continuing
vibrations and may eventually destabilize the bluff.
Is there anyone here to speak to this application?
MR. HERRMANN: Yes, thank you, Mike. Rob Herrmann of
En-Consultants on behalf of the applicants Dave and Stephanie
Sack, who are both here, as are the project architects, Chris
Coy and Chris Caruso.
The subject property is located at 445 Glenn Court, and was
originally created in 1967 as lot four of the subdivision map
of Birch Hills. The property is located to the east of and
adjacent to the undeveloped park and playground property at the
Birch Hills Property Owners Association and is the most easterly
parcel on this side of Glenn Court before the road is broken by
Board of Trustees 23 August 19, 2015
Vista Place to its east. The property fronts Long Island Sound
and its bluff is well vegetated, as Mike noted, and protected at
its toe by a functional retaining wall. The property is presently
characterized by a dwelling located 38 feet from the bluff crest;
a deck that is attached to the dwelling with a hot tub to the seaward
side of the house that is located only 25 feet from the bluff crest; a septic
system consisting of a single cesspool located 27 feet from the bluff;
and total existing lot coverage of 25.3%.
As part of our proposed redevelopment plan, we are
proposing a dwelling with 132-square foot smaller footprint that
will be located 16 feet farther from the bluff; an attached deck
with a small plunge pool type swimming pool about 305 square
feet, both of which will be located at least 50 feet from the
bluff crest, which actually represents a 25 foot or doubling of
the existing bluff setback to structures; a conforming sanitary
system or upgraded sanitary system whose active leaching pool
is to be located more than 75 feet from the bluff, which is a near
tripling of the bluff setback that exists today; and there will
actually be a very slight decrease in lot coverage of about 27
square feet.
As described in our wetland application, the proposed
project design and incorporated mitigation will thus result in
an improvement to the environmental conditions of the property
and serve to better protect the surrounding ecosystem, including
the bluff and tidal waters of Long Island Sound.
Specifically, as a result of project design and in summary
there will be 132-square foot decrease in the dwelling
footprint; an overall decrease in lot coverage of 27-square
feet; a 16-foot increase in the bluff setback to the primary
dwelling from 38 to 54 feet; a doubling of the bluff setback to
structures from 25 to 50 feet; and a near tripling of the bluff
setback to the leaching pool component of the septic system from
27 to 75 feet, all resulting in increases in conformance with
the setback requirements of Chapter 275 relative to what is
existing today.
The small plunge-type swimming pool conforms to the 50 foot
bluff setback for swimming pools as set forth in
275(3)(d)(1)(b)(4)and as additional environmental mitigation
for the pool, the pool is to be equipped with an eco-smart pool
filtration system which utilizes a chemical-free ionization
process for filtration in place of chlorination and other
chemical treatment processes. Because this system eliminates the
use of chemicals for pool treatment, it also creates chemical-free
pool backwash which will be directed into the proposed drainage system.
As additional project mitigation, approximately 1,035
square feet of existing lawn maintained within ten feet of the
bluff crest will be removed and replaced with native vegetation,
and a drainage system of leaders, gutters drywells will be
installed to capture and recharge roof runoff.
Together these measures will mitigate both the quality and
quantity of surface water runoff reaching the bluff by reducing
Board of Trustees 24 August 19, 2015
the area of the property nearest the bluff and wetlands that can
be potentially treated with fertilizers, pesticides,
insecticides, increasing the setback of those areas from the
bluff and surface waters of Long Island Sound, and creating an
area of more permeable soil and natural vegetation adjacent to
the bluff that can serve both as a sink and filter for storm
water runoff and the contaminates potentially contained therein.
In addition, the existing non-conforming sanitary system as
I've mentioned previously, consisting only of one cesspool
located 27 feet from the bluff, will be abandoned in favor of an
upgraded system located as far from the bluff as we can get it
on this property, and of course a project limiting fence and
staked hay bales will be installed to contain site disturbance
and potential runoff during construction.
In summary, the project design and incorporated mitigation
measures will thus result in decreased lot coverage, increased
wetlands and bluff setbacks to structures, sanitary system and
maintained lawn areas, improved septic treatment, increased
native vegetation coverage and increased drainage capacity ,
thereby resulting in a significant net improvement to the
environmental condition of the property, and positive affect on
the adjacent bluff and tidal waters.
As Mike noted, we also presented this application to the
Zoning Board of Appeals, in part because it is obviously
impossible to meet a 100-foot bluff setback on this property for
the house, and also for what was a substantial front yard
variance which the Board approved in order to allow us to pull
the house as far away from the bluff as we have. However there
were several neighbors at the hearing who expressed concerns
about the bluff and what the impacts of the project would have
on the bluff, I think in part with related concerns about not
what happens as a result of long-term, which would seem obvious to
us, that pulling everything farther from the bluff is an
improvement, but potentially what might happen during
construction. So the Board originally left the hearing open
waiting for a report to be received from the Suffolk County Soil
and Water Conservation District. They did issue a report
subsequent to that hearing and prior to the ZBA's approval that
was dated July 27th, 2015. I don't know if you have a copy of
this in your file, but I'll hand up copies to you.
I will note the second paragraph in their recommendations,
which states that the demolition, again, I'm reading from their
report, the demolition of the existing house and the
reconstruction of a new residence has the potential to help
protect the bluff and the residence by increasing the structural
distance from the bluff top edge, as long as the demolition,
reconstruction and maintenance of the proposed infrastructure
does not catalyze bluff erosion. So again going back to the
idea that this is a good project over the long-term, as long as
it doesn't cause any short term problems while the changes are
being made. To ensure against the project catalyzing, as they
Board of Trustees 25 August 19, 2015
say, bluff erosion, their report contains several design
recommendations which ended up being incorporated as special
conditions at the ZBA approval, which includes the ones that
Mike read off when he opened the hearing. Because these
represent small but presumably critical changes to the plan,
I'll run through them quickly and how they affect the site
plan as it currently is in front of you.
The first condition was the retention of the existing
vegetation at the top of the bluff, which of course is part of
the proposal, but also the wire mesh fencing at the top of the
bluff, which is shown on your site plan as to be removed. They
felt that because that fence had sort of become integrated with
the vegetation at the top, and we are proposing additional
ten-foot buffer on the landward side of it, that the fence
should remain, and so we would have to revise the site plan to
change that label from the fence being removed to fence being
retained.
They also recommended installation of a ten-foot wide
buffer which is already included in our site plan as part of the
initial application, but with the inclusion of what they
described as a one-foot high by three-foot wide quote unquote
small diversion sited at the center of the buffer, which I
interpreted to mean a small berm. And as you know, the Board has
required that kind of thing on other bluff restoration projects
we have had, where you have something that will help mitigate
against sheet flow runoff going over the bluff during a severe
storm event.
And so that's not a problem at all for us to add that as
part of the buffer design.
The third was that the existing septic system, which is
that cesspool that is located quite close to the top of the
bluff now, be pumped and filled with clean sand and left in
place rather than excavated and removed. The Health Department
will typically accept either method. Right now our plan shows
either/or. We are certainly happy to amend the site plan to be
consistent obviously with the ZBA decision,just to show it to
be pumped and filled with sand and left in place. So that also
was not a problem.
There is an existing tree stump that was a tree that had
been dead and had been cut. It was cut to grade. And their
recommendation was that the tree stump not be further removed so
as not to cause any increase in soil disturbance, which is fine.
That can also be an acceptable condition of this Board's permit.
And then the last two conditions related to the actual
construction design, especially during demolition, both of which
were topics that Chris Coy, the project architect spoke to the
ZBA about at the hearing, and can also speak further tonight if
the Board feels it is necessary.
The first is the heavy equipment is prohibited from
operating on the bluff side of the demolition and excavation
activities. And that restriction is already incorporated into
Board of Trustees 26 August 19, 2015
our construction methodology, and Chris Coy can testify to that
on the record that that would be a condition that, something, a
methodology that would be followed before it was even required
as a condition.
Then the second is that the use of any heavy blasting
equipment, large pile drivers, et cetera, that might emit low
frequency vibrations that could possibly destabilize the bluff
soils in some way would be prohibited. In their report, the Soil
and Water staff technician who wrote this report acknowledged
that that type of equipment would not be customarily used in a
demolition project like this. And it won't be used for this project.
And again, Chris Coy testified before the ZBA that that kind of
equipment would not be used.
There were some other issues of concern that related to
hours of operation and parking during construction. I don't know
if those are topics necessarily within your purview, but those
topics were also raised by some of the adjoining owners and
addressed during ZBA hearing.
I expect some of those folks will be speaking to you
tonight when I'm done. If the Board wishes us to respond or has
any additional questions of us or the applicants or the
architect, we are all here to answer them.
Otherwise I would say in the grand scheme of things and the
projects this Board looks at, any project that results in a
smaller dwelling, less lot coverage, better bluff setbacks,
better septic treatment, better drainage, more native vegetation
is exactly the kind of projects we typically try to bring to the
Board and the Board looks for in these kind of redevelopment
plans. With that I would turn it over to you. If you have any
questions of me, or want to open it up, it's up to you.
Let me just do one more thing and get these reports up to
you.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Thank you. Is there anyone else here to speak to
this application?
MR. YANNIOS: Thomas Yannios, we live in the immediately
adjacent property to the east, 545 Glenn Court. And here we go
again. We have been there for 40 years. And as my brother and
the presentation after me will show you, the bluff erosion over
those 40 years has been rather dramatic and sometimes violent.
It's been captured by photography, aerial photography, and the
slope inclinations, have been all calculated, and that's all to
be submitted to the record. We are having a little bit of
trouble E-mailing it into your system.
But the overwhelming, the underlying contention of the
homeowners is that this demolition/destruction/reconstruction
project, which is very violent in nature, is compatible with the -
level of stability of the bluff.
I have something which I did not present last time, and was
not aware of, but took pictures of, and if one picture
summarizes this entire issue, it's this. I could not get it on
your system, but I have enough copies for every Board member to
Board of Trustees 27 August 19, 2015
look at. And I'll describe what you are looking at. Not all the
pictures are identical, but they do summarize what is going on.
These pictures are the upper-level bulkhead, which is also
about 40-years old, of our neighbor directly to the east. And
you'll notice that the telephone-size timbers which are
supporting the bulkhead are being bent outward by the cliff
propelling itself outward. So much so that some are actually
splitting. This is -- I didn't know about this until I started
investigating because of this issue that we have. And I was
really struck by visualizing the forces of nature that we are
dealing with.
The people from the soil erosion that made this report, who
I talked to personally when they were there, did not see this
either because at that time I didn't know about it. And I can
guarantee you their report would read a little bit differently,
and I'm going to be submitting these pictures. The bluff is in
this continuous motion to explode. We are, on our property,
which is very heavily vegetated, and has been bulkheaded ever
since 60 years ago, we have already had some surface sloughs from
recent storms. And that's despite all the protection.
The property adjacent to the property in question, which is
to the west, has, and it's on the report that Suffolk County
submitted to you, a recently fallen boulder, automobile-size,
that is crashing through their bulkhead. Again, one of the most
heavily vegetated pieces of coastal bluff in the whole Oregon
Road region. And if you look next to our stairway, which I don't
have pictures of, you see, we see, over the last few years,
progressively unearthed, similar boulders to the one you have a
picture of. In addition, which I submitted a picture of in the
Board of Appeals meeting and also which is on our computer
presentation, which we can't seem to get into your system, we
have a bluff-surface boulder again, automobile size, we think,
which shows progression in the last two years. Whereas before it
had been stable.
Now, now it's very nice that we have this static
presentation replete with statistics that the house is smaller--
MS. HULSE: Sir, can you just keep your comments pertaining to
what your testimony is as opposed to characterizing what Mr.
Herrmann's testimony was. Just give the Board your input and
observations.
MR. YANNIOS: Okay. Sure.
TRUSTEE KING: I have one question. These photos you gave us,
this is not on the property you are talking about now.
MR. YANNIOS: No, it's next to.
TRUSTEE KING: These are not photos of this property.
MR. YANNIOS: No, it's photos of the bluff. No, this property
does not have an upper bulkhead. This is an upper bulkhead. Not
a lower bulkhead. And neither do we. We don't have one either.
That's the next property. The forces of excavation and then
reconstruction are going to be superimposed upon this kind of
bluff movement activity which we are demonstrating, and they are
Board of Trustees 28 August 19, 2015
going to be superimposed upon the short term stability of
things, for instance, as I said, during the storm damage and
this rock that I just showed you happening. And they'll be
superimposed upon the long-term damage or long-term geological
forces which are going on there as depicted in that picture.
This has to be kept in mind.
Now, I'm happy to hear that the planning has changed and
that the vegetation on the top surface is going to be left in
tact. We were very, very worried about that. But it doesn't
change the issue of the seismic impact and the water drainage
impact and effect on the phenomenon which I'm demonstrating in
these pictures and historically which are very well documented
and very well understood.
The additional problem of the vibrations of cars going in
an unheard of underground garage on a cliff by the ocean, is
another issue, which I had not thought of before until it was
mentioned by another neighbor. And this will be ongoing thing.
What kind of vibrations can we expect from automobiles parking
down a steep ramp into a garage that is located within the
bowels of the cliff. And the parking, the vibrations from
parking and accelerating and backing up.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Could you kindly wrap it up. I think you
covered that already, and the discussion concerning the
vibrational affects has been made part of the record already via
the ZBA and prior testimony.
MR. YANNIOS: Okay, that's what we are concerned about. The final
concern is that this, you know, at best this is a controversial
project. We are wondering is it even necessary. This spans both
your jurisdiction and the Building's jurisdiction.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Sir, the Board does not make determinations
of what is necessary. We make determinations under the Town Code
pertaining to Coastal Erosion Hazard Act and the wetland
ordinance. Can you please make it briefer.
MR. YANNIOS: Then I have stated my case.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
MR. COY: Good evening, I'm Chris Coy, Barnes Coy Architects. I'm
a registered architect in New York State. I think at this point
we just need to, briefly, bring some professional facts into
this discussion.
First of all, the demolition of a frame house like this is
not a seismic event. No way near it. We don't use hammers, we
don't use wrecking balls. We use claws on the end of excavators
that take the pieces of the house away and put them in
dumpsters. So there is really no vibration associated with it.
So the demolition of a frame house like this will be done in
probably two to three days anyway. Then we are not driving
piles, we are pouring concrete foundation. So there is no
vibration associated with that. And no heavy equipment will go
on the bluff side, as Rob Herrmann mentioned. We don't have to.
We'll park a concrete truck in the driveway and use a pump to go
over the top and pump the areas we can't reach with a shoot. In
Board of Trustees 29 August 19, 2015
addition to that, the slab of the garage where the cars will be
driving on, is only four feet below grade. Most of the garage is
raised above. We had to recess the garage a little bit to get
some program above that which has an upper floor level from the
rest of the house. But the actual slab is only four feet below
grade. It's not in the bowels of the cliff. It's actually
farther back from the bluff edge than the rest of the house. And
I think we are all familiar with driving into a garage. Again,
it's not a seismic event. You drive in on rubber tires. And as
long as you are not driving a tank in there, there won't be any
vibration. I think we have to debunk this whole thing it's a
violent event. It's not. It's taking down a frame house and
building a new frame house. It happens all the time. It's not a
big deal, and I think this project will result in a house and
septic system that are significantly farther back from the bluff
than this neighbor to the east who just gave testimony. So I
think this is going to actually be an example to the rest of the
people on the bluff of where things should be and how things
should be done. Thank you.
MS. RIPPLE: My name is Barbara Ripple and I live directly
across. You can see my house there where it says "Google."The
Yannios' house is a little bit up and the bulkhead that he was
talking is the next house up. You can see the bulkhead there
that's being built. I have not seen it. I only go in the front
of the house, so.
I would like to know if you can clarify for me, in this
report, which I got as president of the neighborhood
association, what this means. Population bla, bla, bla, are
species dependent on high fresh water soil moistures which in
this location indicate a potential for clay lenses and
freshwater seeps on the bluff.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: We ordinarily would not pass judgment on the
soil conservation water report.
MS. RIPPLE: Well, that proposes to me some kind of weaknesses.
And I mean, I've lived there 40 years, and the entire
neighborhood spends most of its time worrying about the bluff.
So whether or not it's a professional judgment that this won't
disturb the bluff, it's very hard for the neighborhood to
believe that the bluff will remain stable.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I don't think it's appropriate for us to try
to layer what we think it means. But it seems fairly plain
language. I'll say this, the Soil and Water Conservation
Service is known for very comprehensive reports and were they to
have significant issues with fresh waters or the type of
vegetation, they would have probably expanded on it further, but
it's really beyond this Board to start passing judgment.
MS. RIPPLE: Well, you mentioned hurricanes and you yourself--
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: We didn't mention anything here. We are just
listening at this point, ma'am. When we talk about energy
forces, we have to acknowledge the fact that when Long Island
Sound gets riled up during a nor'easter or other seasonal storm
Board of Trustees 30 August 19, 2015
events, the amount of water repeatedly hitting the bulkhead
faces or revetment faces there far exceeds anything that seems
to be spoken to here, and that there has been at least a logical
presentation to try to mitigate that potential with the house
removal. Whether it meets the approval of the Board, and we have
further discussion, is another matter.
MS. RIPPLE: I've stood at the top of the bluff and watched the
water come over the bulkhead and erode --
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I think that by definition that would be
low frequency because it tends to travel at a fairly steady
rate. And the power of water on these faces can't be
underestimated, so I think many of the concerns here that I have
heard, I know this is getting into the area, it just seems to me
that you are looking at the wrong area. Bluff stabilization for
any of the properties, toe stabilization, revegetation of the
bluff areas, are actually the best you can offer and --
MS. RIPPLE: Well, it comes from the top, it comes from the
bottom. And you have my letter about coastal erosion studies.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Just to note, we do have your letter and this
will be entered into the record.
MS. RIPPLE: Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Would you please identify yourself and what
you are submitting to the Board. This is coming as a surprise.
MR. YANNIOS: My name is Nicholas Yannios 545 Glenn Court. My
parents had purchased it back in the early 1970s --
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Could you please speak up a little bit.
MR. YANNIOS: Again my name for the record is Nicholas Yannios,
and my method, beat a dead horse, so I won't rehash what has
already been mentioned here, but over the 30 or so years that we
have been out here, we have observed significant rate of
erosion. And both at the lower bluff portion of the bluff and at
the upper portion of the bluff. And what we have seen, is that
if you look through the presentation, the bluff, the actual
bluff line has receded approximately, the upper portion of the
bluff, has actually receded about 15 to 20 feet. Almost like
three quarters of a foot per year, give or take. And our concern
there is, our concern there is that with this rate of erosion,
that any kind of construction activity, the vibrations will
loosen up the composition or should I say the will affect the
stability of how the soil is compacted and actually un-compact
it and loosen it up to the point where the erosion will
accelerate. Especially at the upper bluff.
One photo that we have in here shows also not only the
recession of the upper portion of the bluff, but also shifting
of the bluff. And over the years, with photos that were taken in
1994 and up to 2014, we've observed a shift, a lateral shift in
the bluff of like about three feet. And that is also one of our
concerns, obviously.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: I think if you are talking about erosion of the
Board of Trustees 31 August 19, 2015
bluff, you are making the case to move the house landward as a
protection.
MR. YANNIOS: But also to do as much as possible to mitigate
anything that loosens up the soil and contributes to
accelerating that.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Historically, construction activities on the
Sound had very little scrutiny from the Board until we started
to look at these things under the Coastal Erosion Hazard Act.
And this Board has lived in the aftermath of Tropical Storms
Irene and Sandy. A question I have, because there is such
interest here specifically with respect to vibrational energy
and destabilizing, is there a history at all, have there been
any bluff failures in this area from home constructions, any
documented case where there has been a problem?
MR. YANNIOS: Not that I'm aware of. But just from the weather
itself, we have seen boulders, you know, a month prior, there at
the top of the bluff.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I'm going to be quite honest with you, the
picture you paint is one of a very concerned community, but the
Soil Conservation Service and their specific requirements which
are incorporated by reference in the Zoning Board of Appeals and
the proposed project plan seems to address the issue in an area
I think the Board looks at and feels we don't see very many
areas as stable as this with vegetation and such during the
course of inspection. So it seems like the other parties which
have superior knowledge to this Board, Soil and Water
Conservation, have done their inspection and made their
comments, and there has been a genuine attempt to try to
incorporate them into this process.
MR. YANNIOS: And we appreciate that they made changes in their
plan there. But I just wanted to voice my concern that it's
followed and that it is enforced, and that no tanks or whatever
come in the middle of the night when nobody is, you know, is
asleep and cause trouble.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Does anyone else wish to speak to this
application?
MS. RIPPLE: Can I ask a question about the houses on the bluff.
All the houses along there in our area are there 40, 50 years,
okay, so none of us can really attest to when they were being
built if there was a problem. But there are two large houses
beyond there that were built, I want to say ten or 12 years ago,
and there was considerable erosion and they had work to do on
the bottom of the bluff when they were building those. I don't
even know the names of the people who live there. But there was
an erosion problem.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Sir, if you are going to speak,
you'll have to make it very brief because we've given you about
ten minutes before.
MR. YANNIOS: Tom Yannios. Your own revised zoning requires that
the house be setback 100 feet. There is a reason for that,
Board of Trustees 32 August 19, 2015
right?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: This Board is not in a position to be
debating Town Code provisions or the actions of other Boards. At
this point, Trustee Domino is running the hearing process, I'll
turn it back to him and we'll have to wrap this up.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Are there any other questions or comments from
the Board?
(No response).
Hearing none, I make a motion to close this hearing.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I'll make a motion to be approve this
application as submitted.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I would like to open up discussion. Since
there has been so much concern about the activities present.
Would it be possible that you would consider amending your
resolution to add an inspection just to affirm the types of
equipment that are being used during the demolition? I wonder
if the applicants would have a problem with that, if the Board
puts that as a requirement.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Would that not be a Building Department
requirement rather than a Trustee requirement regarding
Equipment used in construction or deconstruction.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Under request, can we amend the resolution
to request the Building Department put in additional inspection
during demolition. And if not them, us.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I don't know that I would be comfortable with
that in the resolution. I think definitely we can make that
request of the Building Department. I would not want to put that
in, a request to the Building Department in a resolution for a
permit approval.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: I feel similarly.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Okay, motion made and second. Apparently
there is no movement for an amendment. So what's the vote of the
Board?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Just for the record, based on, for myself, based on
the information and the extensive review done under ZBA and the
conditions required under ZBA, its determination, to address
the concerns, I'm voting aye.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
The next application, THE BOATYARD AT FOUNDERS LANDING, INC.
Requests a Wetland Permit to reconstruct approximately 880
linear feet of existing bulkhead in-place; replace existing
steps leading to floating docks; replace four(4) existing
3'x12' ramps leading to floating docks; repair and/or replace
existing floating docks as follows: Two (2) 6'x60' main floats,
one (1) 6'x40' main float, one (1) 6'x48' main float, seven (7)
Board of Trustees 33 August 19, 2015
4'x18'fingers, and six(6) 4'x16'fingers; replace and/or
repair existing fixed finger piers as follows: Two (2) 3'x18'
finger piers, two (2) 3'x20'finger piers, one (1) 6'x38'
leading to a 6'x54'"L"finger pier, three (3) 3'x24'finger
piers, one (1)4'x42' finger pier, one 4'x62' finger pier, one
5'x64' finger pier, and one 5'x60'finger pier; replace
approximately 36 existing mooring pilings; replace approximately
100 existing fender pilings; reconstruct existing 20'x60'travel
lift slip; repair existing 32' long jetty and existing 16' long
jetty; dredge inside basin area to an elevation of-5.0' by
removing approximately 2,500 cubic yards of material; dredge
outside basin area to an elevation of-7.0' by removing
approximately 650 cubic yards of material; use dredge material
to backfill all voids landward of repaired bulkheads with excess
material to be trucked off to an approved upland site; and add
impervious RCA material upon completion of the backfilling and
compacting. Located: 2700 Hobart Road & 1000 Terry Lane,
Southold.
The application has received a review by the LWRP which
finds it both inconsistent and consistent. It's found
inconsistent because many of the structures, essentially all of
the structures, inside the basin predate active Trustee
permitting for the site. And the portion that is deemed to be
consistent has to do with the proposed maintenance dredging
within a marina area is consistent with the waterfront policies
of the town.
The Town's CAC voted not to support the application because
the application is incomplete and the site plan is not current. The
jetties are not shown on the plan which are proposed to be
repaired and the drainage plan is not shown. The CAC also
questions that the applicant is requesting a ten-year
maintenance dredging permit. Just for a point of information,
the plans, that must have been oversight, the plans do show both
of the proposed jetties to be maintained, and the Board
regularly accepts ten-year maintenance dredging permits with
respect to areas that have a history of dredging. It's in
conformity with the policies of this Board as well as the
Department of Environmental Conservation to allow continuing
dredging operations within the confines of commercial marinas so
their activities can continue.
There is also a request from Costello Marine Construction
with respect to this application that they would like permission to raise
the existing bulkhead height by one foot, and currently during extreme
high tides water will overtop the bulkhead, backwashing of the bulkhead.
Raising the height will prevent this from occurring and help maintain the
stability of the ground behind the bulkhead where the patrons walk.
The Board performed field inspection on August 12th. It was our feeling,
based on observation that the raising of the bulkhead would be
appropriate in this case. With respect to site plan approval and
drainage that the Town's CAC noted, ordinarily, a maintenance
dredging project for this Board has not been the cause to have a
Board of Trustees 34 August 19, 2015
new site plan generated. Drainage might be another issue for the
Board to discuss with the applicant because of the large amount
of spoil material being put, maybe some drainage improvements
might be appropriate for the work plan, but it's unheard of for
maintenance dredging and repairs to impose a new site plan
approval unless they were changing something that would require
them to go before the Building or Planning Departments for site
plan approval. With that said, is there anyone here to speak on
behalf of this application?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes. My name is John A. Costello. And not only am
I making the application, I'm certainly, I'm the owner of the
property. And the design, I'll try to explain some of the
concerns. There are three small pre-existing jetties. I label
them as jetties because they are perpendicular to the shore.
There is only one to the south, which is 36 feet in length,
which is holding a neighboring beach in place, and not allowing
the sand to come into the marina.
When you were onsite, you can see that it certainly needs
dredging. And in regard to the issue of drainage, the bulkhead
will be filled with clean sand. You'll see, there is a major
degree of clean sand now that has to be dredged or excavated. If
you place the clean sand behind the bulkhead, the percolation of
the filters, it filters the water and percolates down quite
quickly without putting major strain on the bulkhead face.
I built a couple of bulkheads in my life and sand is the
best backfill material because of that. So sand filter. They use
them on swimming pools. It is one of the better filtering
systems. There is no drainage onsite except by the town.
Presently. The town has one drainage on the road. Unfortunately
it runs into the marina. I have contacted the Highway
superintendent and I would like to have him come down and meet
with me to try to rectify that and minimize some of the debris
of the road runoff pollution that runs into the basin. I believe
it would help and I think he would, too, if when I'm rebuilding
building the bulkhead he said he would work in part with me to
try, help resolve that problem, and possibly put the, there is a
little area to the road there, you can probably put some more
drainage filtration system in there, and I would certainly work
with the Superintendent of Highways rather than to have
pollutants come into the basin. So any other questions the Board
has.
The inconsistency that one of them has, that some of the
bulkheads were pre-existing, a lot of these bulkheads were
applied for permits, one goes back into the '30s. And there has
been several after that. And they did have a marine railway,
they converted it, whether they had a permit for it, to a travel
lift, I don't know. But they did have a travel lift there
sitting onsite and it was disposed of because it was inoperable.
So the plan is to replace the travel lift.
I would like to have as many of the existing types of
boats, small, baymen, there is several baymen around the area. I
Board of Trustees 35 August 19, 2015
tell you, I appreciate people that work for a living and I will
make any exception to try to keep them in business. But it's
difficult as it is. The bulkheads right now are creosoted. They
are all creosoted. We will not be using creosote, nor can you
buy creosoted materials in New York State. And we'll be using
vinyl and CCA piling. And we'll try get the bulkheads all
rebuilt.
The first stage of this job would be get the bulkheads,
because they are dangerous. I have a letter from the insurance
company, and let me tell you, I think he did me a favor by
letting me insure this place, because I have several other
companies with policies with them, and he says you can have a
policy, I don't know if the underwriters will renew it without
doing some major repairs on the bulkhead, because it's
dangerous. As you probably well saw. And that's the procedure.
I'm going to try to rebuild it as much as it is right there now.
You see in the photograph, you are far enough way, it looks good
from that angle.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Mr. Costello, what is the zoning down there?
MR. COSTELLO: Marine use.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: M1 or M2?
MR. COSTELLO: I believe it's M2.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Mr. Costello, the lift area is going to be
dredged to minus seven feet?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes, we'll build the bulkhead to accommodate that
so that we can handle every boat that is in that marina,
including a few sailboats.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Any further questions?
(Negative response).
Anyone else wish to speak to this application?
MS. PARRA: I do. I'm Raine Parra. I'm actually very happy to
see that that area is going to be renovated. My concern, I had
three concerns, but one was the existing bulkhead is in fact
going to be made higher, which I think is left to the
professionals on that. That's great.
Vegetation installation, I don't see that on the brief
description. I'm just wondering why that is not included in
this plan. It seems to be it would be appropriate. And again,
impervious RCA seems to be a bit in conflict in terms of runoff.
Would we not be better suited with a porous surface?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Question noted.
MS. PARRA: Thank you. And I would like to note there is an
existing osprey nest. I did speak with Mr. Costello briefly,
about two weeks ago, so I'm a little bit aware of what he would
like to do with that, with the project. And I just wanted to
make note there is an osprey nest there as well. And I believe
the constructions going to start in the fall when they have
vacated, but I just wanted to bring that to the Board's attention.
TRUSTEE BERGEN?We noticed that when we were down there.
MS. PARRA: Great. Thank you.
Board of Trustees 36 August 19, 2015
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: With respect to the issue, I think maybe
someone can speak to this, but RCA I think is usually termed as
impervious by its nature, but I don't know if Mr. Costello or
any engineers or any of the people here are better apt to speak
to that.
MR. COSTELLO: I'll take the easy one first, the osprey nest.
When they do vacate, it was at higher elevation, it was on top
of a travel lift. It was at a higher elevation. And I intend to
install a pole up near one of the buildings, away from the
trees, and place the same osprey nest up higher. The ospreys in
the nest right now are a little bit nervous when there is a
little barge boom there. They will not vacate. The parents will
not vacate the fledglings. If they are there, then
unfortunately, when the season is over, they are going to have
to move probably a hundred feet or so. Hopefully, so. I hope
they'll come back.
Now, the other thing, RCA does not form -- I'm personally
against any blacktopping, asphalt. The drainage systems, the
natural drainage systems between sand, the RCA does not retain
water. It's concrete with small spaces between it. I have it in
part of my driveway. And the puddles just go away before the end
of the day. They drain down through it. I have done several
marinas and I have owned several marinas over the years and the
RCA, unfortunately, the best probably is what is there now. What
is there now is oyster and clamshells. And I tell you, if I
could purchase clamshells and oyster shells, they act, exactly
like RCA. They let the water drain through. There is no drainage
on that property except the Highway's comes in through the
basin. And there is very little retention of water anywhere.
That may not be totally true because the bulkheads slightly
leak, so, in a couple of spots. So only 880 feet of spots.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Is there anyone else who wishes
to speak to this application?
MR. GOLDSMITH: I'm Bruce Goldsmith, I'm president of Goldsmith's
Boat Shop, and this project is in desperate need of repair. As
soon as possible. And I think John is the right person to do the
job and get it done. It needs to be done soon. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. Is there anyone else to speak to
this?
MS. MANNING: My name is Mary Manning, Terry Lane, Southold. I
live around the block from where this construction is going to
start. And I can hear everything from my house. In the
wintertime I'm the only one there, beside a couple of my
friends. And I just want to know about how long this will take,
how long the pile driving will take, how loud it's going to be,
and what time they are going to start. I was also concerned
about the birds being there, because they have been there for a
long time. I know it's not for you to tell me how long this will
take, but will this all come down and be on a list of things
that they are going to be doing. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Anyone else wish to speak to this?
Board of Trustees 37 August 19, 2015
MR. COSTELLO: Could I just try to rebut that? I appreciate the
neighbors and I have other places, I have a boatyard in
Greenport that has neighbors all around it. And what we normally
do, normally, everyone shows up at 6:30 in the morning or 6:00
in the morning at Greenport. We organize who will be going
where. And what we have done several times, near the weekends,
we have come in a half hour later in order to do other jobs. We
select doing less noisy things early. We are not going to drive
pilings. We are going to jet piling, and we are going to tap the
sheathing in with a small air hammer. There is very little
driving. There is not any big --there is a crane, but there's
not very big, noisy equipment. There will be noise, but we'll
try to minimize it. And most of it will be in the wintertime
when I have less work going on than in the summertime. I
understand the concern of anybody in the summertime. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you, anyone else? Trustees?
(No response).
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion to close the
hearing in this matter.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I make a motion to approve this,application
as submitted with the amended, amending as requested to increase
the bulkhead height by one foot. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Discussion on the motion. And whereby
granting a permit for the heretofore historic structures that
may exist on the property, and performing the consistent
maintenance dredging, it would bring the entire project into
consistency with the LWRP.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE KING: Number eight Costello Marine Contracting Corp., on
behalf of NARROW RIVER MARINE, c/o MAUREEN & FRED DACIMO request
a Wetland Permit for a Ten (10)Year Maintenance Permit to
maintenance dredge two shoaled areas of an existing navigational
channel to a depth of-4.5' below mean low water; the resultant
±970 cubic yards of dredge spoil is to be transported to shore
by barge and trucked off site to an approved upland disposal
site. Located: 5520 Narrow River Road, Orient.
This was found consistent with the LWRP. And the CAC
resolved to support the application. I believe this is identical
to a previous permit for dredging from 2005.
Is there anyone here to speak on behalf of or against this
application?
MR. COSTELLO: Again, my name is still John A. Costello. I'm the
agent for the Dacimo's on Narrow River dredging project. As you
can see in the past records that there was a ten-year
Board of Trustees 38 August 19, 2015
maintenance project on that site, and what we are going to do,
the DEC permit is still in effect up until August 31st.
TRUSTEE KING: Of this year?
MR. COSTELLO: Of this year. And we have a couple of months,
have an application before them, for the same exact ten-year
maintenance dredging permit. And as can you see, there is a
combination on the permit application, one area approaches the
marina, there is about six-hundred linear foot. The channel is
not very deep, but we are only going to take off approximately a
foot, plus or minus, going into the marina for six-hundred feet.
It's not a lot of dredging, but it's over a long area.
Six-hundred feet long. We are going to go in there and take off
approximately a foot, a foot and two inches. And most of it is
right dead in the middle of the channel, will be a combination
mud and sand. The mud comes from the dead vegetation, leaves,
and that goes into the lowest spot in the channel, and that's
where we'll try maintain that.
The other section, there is a second section, we have them
in two sections, A and B. Mid-channel going out of the marina,
there is one shoal spot, and it stays shoal. There is quite a
bit of rock and debris that was put there at one time, probably
a hundred years ago, that was trying to keep the channel open.
And it still doesn't keep it open. It doesn't work. The rocks
are under the soil. And we are going to go and take 300, 370
cubic yards, again, dredging it 25-foot wide channel, which will
result with a tapering of the shoreline by up to about 40 feet.
It will be a natural taper with the mud and the silt material
that is in there. There will be a taper. It will encompass
about 40 feet. The dredging will only take place in the center
25 foot. If the Board has any questions,. I'll do my best to
answer them.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I don't have any questions. As a kid I
remember the south channel as they used to call it, was still
well-formed enough to occasionally pull a striped bass out from
between the rocks. So I don't know what you'll find when you
get into it, whether they fall into the bottom or they slid or
what's happened.
TRUSTEE KING: Is there anyone else here to speak to this
application?
(No response).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: It's pretty straightforward. This is a re-do
of the prior permit that the marina had, and actually if we were
to try to do this through the public policy side of the house
with the county, it would take forever and ever to get the
county engineer, so in a sense it provides a public benefit
because clearance of this channel allows for those navigating
and using the Narrow River boat ramp, which is a public
facility, to get the benefit of this dredging as well. So it's
in the public interest as well.
MR. COSTELLO: Well, in the ten-year permit, I think, I don't
believe they dredged but about two or three times. When it gets
Board of Trustees 39 August 19, 2015
to complaint from their tenants or whatnot, and it's actually
maintaining a fairly public channel, okay.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to close this hearing.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the application.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The next application Lark& Folts, Esqs. on
behalf of ELLEN F. EMERY 1999 REVOCABLE TRUST requests a Wetland
Permit for the as-built 100' timber pile vinyl sheet bulkhead;
as-built 80' timber pile tongue-and-groove sheet retaining wall
with two 8' returns located ±25' landward of bulkhead; as-built
80' mid-bluff timber pile tongue-and-groove sheet retaining wall
with two 8' returns located ±55' landward of bulkhead; as-built
85' timber pile vinyl sheet retaining wall with a 12' return and
a 25' return located ±10' landward from top of bluff; as-built
bluff stairs from top of bluff to beach consisting of a 4'x7'
access platform leading to a 4'x28' set of stairs with
associated 75sq.ft. Platform to a 4'x7' set of stairs with
associated 95sq.ft. Platform to a 4'x17' set of stairs leading
to a 4'x13'walkway with a 4'x10' set of stairs to beach
parallel to bulkhead, supported by 8"timber pile posts and
composite materials on stair treads and decking; as-built 1,800
cubic yards clean fill spread evenly between retaining walls to
replace lost bluff material with placement of erosion control
jute matting on bluff; for a proposed rear-yard drainage system
to direct roof rain and surface water away from house foundation
and upland retaining wall by providing a drainage swale with 4"
PVC pipe to a drywall in the front yard area; and for a proposed
200sq.ft. deck of composite decking supported by 6"x6" posts
located 10' landward from top of bluff. Located: 5925 Nassau
Point Road, Cutchogue.
REVISED PROJECT DESCRIPTION AS OF JUNE 30, 2015:
For the as-built 100' timber pile, vinyl sheet bulkhead;
as-built 80' timber pile tongue-and-groove retaining wall with
two 8' returns located ±25' landward of bulkhead (buried);
as-built 80' mid-bluff timber pile tongue-and-groove retaining
wall with two 8' returns located ±55' landward of bulkhead;
as-built 85' timber pile, vinyl sheet retaining wall with a 12'
return and a 25' return located 7' to ±10' landward from top of
bluff; as-built bluff stairs from top of bluff to beach
consisting of a 4'x7' access platform leading to a 4'x28' set of
stairs with associated 75sq.ft. landing to a 4'x7' set of stairs
with associated 95sq.ft. landing to a 4'x17' set of stairs
leading to a 4'x13'walkway with a 4'x10' set of stairs to beach
parallel to bulkhead; as-built±1,800 cubic yards clean fill
spread evenly between retaining walls to replace lost bluff
Board of Trustees 40 August 19, 2015
material with placement on top thereof an erosion control jute
matting with plantings of American beach grass and environmental
grasses; as-built drainage system to direct roof rain and
surface water away from the house foundation and upland
retaining wall by providing a drainage swale with a 6-inch
perforated pipe to drywells in the front-yard area; at the top
of the bluff on the northerly property line, propose to extend
the mid-bluff timber tongue-and-groove retaining wall 14' to the
northerly property line; extend the vinyl sheet pile retaining
wall landward from the top of the bluff 12' to the northerly
property line; construct along the northerly property line a
6'x6' timber pile and lagged step-down binwall with 8 inch pile
posts 10' long; remove small overhanging lip of vegetation at
top of bluff to establish natural angle of repose; clear brush
from the top of the slope; add ±20 cubic yards of clean sand and
re-grade as necessary; place woven geotextile on re-graded area,
and plant with beach grass and other environmental grasses; and
related minor steps to complete project and restore landscaping;
at the southerly property line, propose to extend retaining wall
approximately 8'to the property line; increase height of
retaining wall by 18 inches; reinforce with helical anchors;
repair existing timber bulkhead wall at bottom by replacing
damaged walers; clear brush; add ±10 cubic yards of clean sand
and re-grade as necessary; place woven geotextile on re-graded
area and plant with beach grass and other environmental grasses,
and related minor steps to complete project and restore
landscaping. Located: 5925 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue.
This project is a return from prior Board discussions and
review. The Board went and performed inspection on August 12th.
Still with some concern and at issue was the stairs to the
beach, a platform associated with the stairs which was not as
planned in the original permit, which exceeds the hundred square
foot maximum, and walls that were constructed not in conformance
with the prior permits. And the applicant proposes to put new
extensions to existing retaining walls to have extended returns
on the north and south.
The LWRP -- I'm looking at this presently because I have
not had an opportunity--the LWRP in the re-reviewed action is
inconsistent. The recommendation still applies to the action
even in consideration of the improved project. The reason is
the as built construction of the structures. So the LWRP is
noting the fact that we have as-built structures that do not
have the benefit of a Town Trustee wetland permit.
Is there anyone here who wishes to speak on behalf of this
application?
MR. SELIGMANN: Good evening, my name is Dan Selligmann, I'm a
licensed engineer in the State of New York, and I did the design
for this. I'm just here to answer any questions you might have
regarding any of the work that was done.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: In doing the file review on behalf of the
Board, and also the Board discussing it, the project, as in the
Board of Trustees 41 August 19, 2015
•
project description, you are basically bifurcate it. You seek
to get an as-built permit for the prior work done, then you seek -
to extend the retaining wall returns where there is some erosion
evident. And the question, we could see the erosion evident,
the question we have is with these returns going back into the
land, as an engineer, do you not see the potential as
neighboring properties also have erosion, since there is no tie
in to neighboring bulkhead retaining walls, will there not be an
additional tendency for water to go off these sheer faces and
then cause the kind of erosion we are seeing? In other words is
the solution you seek to extend those retaining structures back
into the land, is that a solution or are there viable
alternatives that should be done, considered ahead of that, that
would be less structurally, you know, less of a face or
combination of jute matting and stone, you know, stone material
stabilizing them? Because the neighboring properties don't have
the benefit of the extensive retaining wall, as built retaining
wall structures.
• MR. SELIGMANN: On the north side of the property, first let me
say, that the walls that were built did not go to the property
lines. So the idea here is really to extend those walls to
protect the Emery property from property line to property line.
And on the north side there is planned in the drawings to put a
bin wall which runs east/west which would essentially protect
Emery's property from the neighbor to the north.
On the south side, the erosion there, again, the slope of
the property in general, the way it's been sloped down, slopes
toward the road. So any runoff, hopefully once the walls are
built on the south side to the property line will allow the
runoff to go to the road, of which there is extensive drainage
plan done and drainage was, new drainage was put in on the
property to keep the water from going over the bluff.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I'm not sure I understand you, because I
thought during the course --we have a photo here, too.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Do you have a set of plans? .
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Yes.
MR. SELIGMANN: Unfortunately, part of the problem as well is the ,
neighbor to the north is having erosion that is coming on to the
Emery property. So whatever action they plan to take, it
doesn't help Emery. So the idea is to try to cut off any erosion
from that property on to Emery's.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Okay, I see here, it looks like helical
screws are being proposed to back the system up, similar to what
was used previously in construction.
MR. SELIGMANN: Yes, that would be the piles that are installed.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: How are the piles installed with this
construction with helical screws? Are they jetted in?
MR. SELIGMANN: Typically, they are jetted or augured in, similar
to what Mr. Costello had mentioned.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No driven piles?
MR. SELIGMANN: No, there is no impact piles here. That photo is
Board of Trustees 42 August 19, 2015
on south side of the property.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What we are doing is looking at a set of plans
here. Number 201 on the bottom,'just for the record.
MR. SELIGMANN: Yup.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Can we ask for a clarification just to make
sure we are all looking at the same part of the plan. It says
provide pile and lag binwall stepdown the slope at place fill
as necessary, maintain three to four slope minimum.
So you are suggesting this binwall, which is the north
side of the property down slope will not have a face, it will
not have a facing wall on the north side that will be catching
rain or erosion?
MR. SELIGMANN: No, the intent of that wall is to minimize on to
Emery's property any erosion that is occurring from the adjacent
property, which right now there is erosion from the adjacent
property, which I believe there are several photos that show.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: So the bluff is tending -- so let me
characterize this and just tell me where I'm not getting this or
if lam.
If the neighboring bluff is starting to fail, okay, and
understandably this binwall will protect and keep soils on the
Emery property, but is it not as the wind, rain and other forces
on that north face, is that just going to accelerate the down
slope erosion on the neighboring property?And then it begs the
question maybe we need to see an alternative or a point of
armoring with stone or other material and a letter from the
neighbor so we are not making worse erosion on the neighboring
property as you are stabilizing Mrs. Emery's.
MR. SELIGMANN: Again, most of the erosion on the north side is
due to the neighbor's property. And I have spoken to the
neighbor and I did a report for him outlining fairly much what
you are saying. At this point, they have not decided what they
are going to do. But to protect, again, to protect the Emery
property-- I can't prevent erosion on someone else's property
without-- all I can do is try to design something to try to
protect the property that I was retained to protect.
So it's, the wall is an east/west wall, so it's not facing
any weather. That's why I call it, it's called a binwall. It's
just like a bunch of bins. It just protects the fill that we
intend to place to the property line of Emery to protect her
side of the property. What happens on the north side, you know,
hopefully they'll come to an agreement about how to stabilize
that, and that will protect the property to the north. And I --
do you follow what I'm saying?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: It seems there should be stabilization of
the neighboring property.
MR. SELIGMANN: And you are probably right, unfortunately I have
no control over what the neighbor does.
MR. LARK: Richard Lark, Cutchogue, New York, for the applicant.
What Mr. Seligmann was referring to, I participated in talking
to the neighbor and the neighbor's engineer. Soil and Water came ,
Board of Trustees 43 August 19, 2015
out and looked at it, Polly Wiggin came out and looked at it,
and she said our retaining wall should be extended to the
property line. This is on the north side now. And, they should
extend it literally over to their deck and stairwell, which is
probably about 50 feet. Because she says theirs is failing, and
by extending the retaining wall from our retaining wall, if we
do extend it to the property line, will`protect their bluff. She
also found when she came out in the spring this year, that the
deer were using that has a path on her property and they were
exacerbating it because they were creating a gully going up and
down. I was surprised to see that until she showed me the deer
tracks of going up and down. But she then said both retaining
walls, the upper one and lower one, should be extended across.
Their engineer, which is the brother of the owner, acknowledged
that, but he said it's too expensive at this time and we're just
going see what happens and we are not going to do it.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: That Krupski property.
MR. LARK: No, that's the other side. It's owned by Axelrod. The
other side. And extensive conversation was done with Mr.
Seligmann and them and it all came down to money. They didn't
want to spend the money to extend. Because when the Soil and
Water verified everything the engineer said, and I saw the
erosion there, and if you look on their property, their fence is
failing and things are gradually coming down. Fortunately we
have not had too many storms in the last two or three months,
thank God, so it has not exacerbated. But that was explored
with them, because when Soil and Water came and said extend the
line, do yours and let them extend. So the proposal you have
from Mr. Seligmann will allow that in the future if they decide
to deal with their erosion problem they can tie in. And Mrs.
Emery personally spoke with the owner and said you have my
permission to do it any time you want.
MR. SELIGMANN: I want to point out I was retained to write a
report on my findings, and that was my findings. Again, they are
choosing to do whatever is financially best for them. So we can
only protect the property I was retained to work with.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The permit that we granted for the stairs to
the beach, based on the original line drawing of Chris Gentry, I
think that was going back to a prior permitting cycle in 2014,
may have been February of 19th, I don't think that the Board
fully appreciated then that there was going to be such large
pilings used for the construction of that set of steps. The
not-to-scale scale drawing had it at four foot width going
perpendicular, which may not be neither here nor there, it's for
the Board to discuss, but I think the concern exists that most
of the steps to the beach in this location are usually seasonal
in nature or built with smaller timbers so that they can be
extracted to allow other contractors and people that need to
move along the beach to conduct activities.
Does it pose a problem that modification be made to bring
in seasonal steps as previously requested? I think that was
Board of Trustees 44 August 19, 2015
requested --
MR. LARK: Do you have the affidavit of Marilou Folts before you?
The statement you said is not factually true. If you'll read her
affidavit with the pictures, I'll give you the numbers in a
second for the record, but half of them are what we call
parallel and the other ones are perpendicular. And there is
only two of the entire length of the beach from the causeway to
the tip that are -- and they are kind of flimsy, one of them I
• saw, where they can retain them, you know, pull them in and out.
And 50% are sideways. And when you look at them, and there is
very little beach there anymore, but what little there is, if
pedestrians or anybody is trying to move along, it's much better
with the parallel than the perpendicular. And Mr. Bergen lives
there, so he can verify.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I think you misunderstood. It's not an issue
so much with parallel versus perpendicular. It has to do with
the fact they are so substantial that seasonally they are not
capable of being removed. Because a lot of the work that takes
place on bulkhead repair and replacement is seasonal work, and
the timbers there are at least ten inch timbers, whereas the
typical dock is made of steps and stringers of two by--
MR. LARK: Again. Not true. The ones that are parallel, most of
them that are parallel are of similar material, they might not
have the flow-through steps that we have, but they are not
moveable. They are not moving anywhere. They are solid.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I'll have to defer to Trustee Bergen.
MR. LARK: Yes. And you can see the picture and see her
affidavit. She did an analysis of it.
MR. SELIGMANN: I'll point out if you look at that photo there,
there seems to be considerable room to get around the stairs,
even at low tide, for access for equipment, and in fact from
what I have seen, it's almost impossible to get equipment, heavy
equipment down to that location, in that location. They have to
come from quite a distance to do so.
MR. LARK: For the record, there were 74 individual properties.
28 of them had fixed stairs perpendicular, 28 had fix stairs
parallel, three had retractable perpendicular and two had
retractable parallel. And one property had a dock
perpendicular. There is only one dock on the whole thing.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: We understand. We have been involved with
permitting issues with that and are familiar with that dock.
MR. LARK: So that's the facts of what is there. Is that right,
David?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll just address the issue of the stairs
because I don't want too much emphasis, this is myself speaking,
I don't want to overemphasize the stairs. I think the stairs
situation is minimal compared to the rest of the issues on this
property. I would agree totally, without going out and doing a
numerical count, I'm sure what you are saying is correct with
regard to the number of stairs being parallel versus
perpendicular versus seasonal. I, myself, had approval from this
Board of Trustees 45 August 19, 2015
Board for a parallel set of stairs that I chose not to
construct. But the challenge is the scope of those stairs, in
other words construction standards of those stairs, from what I
observed, are much greater than what the Board would normally
approve; which set of stairs, whether it's parallel,
perpendicular, whatever. And I think that's part of the problem
here is we are dealing with stairs and other structures that
were constructed without a permit. If they had come in for a
permit first, of course, we could have addressed that and the
set of stairs, I'm surmising, probably would have been approved
parallel, but maybe with downsizing of the pilings or maybe some
changes one way or the other. That's the permitting process is
coming in and getting a permit first before you build. Once
somebody goes out and builds without permit, they are then
coming back to us asking for forgiveness. We are not the bad
guys. Coming back asking for forgiveness saying please give us
permission to keep what we have there. And if it complies with
current standards that we have done in the past, for myself, I
don't have a problem with that. I don't.So with the stairs, I
don't have a problem, I know what we approved was one thing and
they chose to construct it differently, I don't have a problem
with that.
MR. LARK: And I do make an apology because I did personally ask
the contractor two years ago when he did that, I said why did
you do that. He said because they'll last. Because the other
ones won't last, because what he encountered, because it was one
of the last items that he did, and it was with the failure he
was counting from up above and the way Sandy hit the property,
you know, so that, it was a feeble excuse, but that's all I got
from him.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Does the Board have any other questions?
(No response).
I think we have a very complete record now. We have the report
of the Soil Conservation Service, we've seen the plants are in
conformity with the recommendations of Soil Conservation
Service. We have the record shows the town drainage has been
approved by the town engineering staff. The issues that remain
for us and maybe would be appropriate to have the Board at next
worksession discuss permitting aspects, take the time to go
through some of these areas where we still have concerns, I know
concerns exist that Dave Bergen gave a great description of the
stairs at the bottom, the initial plan that we had approved had
a single landing of course we end up with two landings, one
exceeds the code minimum, so that's a point for discussion for
the Board during a potential permit phase. And requested
extensions to the retaining walls going north and south as we
discussed. And the fact that the upper retaining wall was moved
from its original planned location and is still above the height
of the soil. I think there is some concern there also. We have a
structure above that might encourage erosion. So I think these
are issues for the Board to discuss as part of the permitting
Board of Trustees 46 August 19, 2015
phase if we were to move forward. Do you have any thoughts
concerning those; those are the issues that we seem to be, you
know, dealing with now as a Board.
MR. SELIGMANN: I can address some of those. With regard to the
landings, again, there are walls in there, retaining walls, to
help retain the bluff. The stairs, the lower stairs, are
anchored to those walls, so the geometry would be governed by
the location of that wall. As far as it being a turnaround
stair, again, part of that, I believe, the contractor did that
because of the geometry issues that we had trying to anchor the
stairs to the backside of the wall. And also be able to get the
correct rise and run of the stairs to get down to the beach. So
again, I don't want to address it-- I believe the drawings
indicate that that stairs is 75 square feet. I would have to check.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No, that's the area of the landing. The
actual platform, the code is specific to platforms associated
with stairs is limited to 100-square feet. This actually was a
code change that took place after the initiation of
construction, so you had the benefit of a code change in the
interim. Previously they were limited to 32-square feet. It was
based on the current Board's observations and experience that we
felt they could be enlarged somewhat, because we carefully
constructed open decking as high as possible. We were
comfortable with increasing those deck areas to make them safer
and allow for benches in some cases, but this is over 120-square
feet. So it's not-- the stairs end up going down on to it. We've
got the measurements here in the file. It's essentially 10x12.
MR. SELIGMANN: Again, are you referring to the sum total of both
stairs or both landings?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No, I'm talking about the lower platform is
a platform that exceeds code by at least 20-square feet.
MR. LARK: They are all under 100 square feet, each one of them.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Sir, we went out and measured them. I'm not here
to argue, I'm saying we went out and measured each one.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Just for point of clarification, I measured
it twice and the measurements are like within a half a square
foot. So it's a 75 square foot landing area that you walk on,
but the decks proceed up over, excuse me, the stairs proceed
over the landing on both sides, so there is area that is covered
by the steps, but it's landing itself which is over the bluff
face. The landing itself was measured up by Trustee King the
last time we were out. It was measured up by myself and an
independent assessment prior and it was also measured up by
Trustee Domino. Three separate Trustees, essentially three
separate days,just to make sure we got it right. The day--
MR. LARK: I'll give you what the surveyor measured it.
MS. HULSE: Hold on. Would you finish your thoughts please,
finish what your sentence was. I don't think you finished it.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Basically we had the structure, here again, it
goes to the point Trustee Bergen made that was constructed
without the benefit of a permit and it exceeds the code
Board of Trustees 47 August 19, 2015
requirements, and three Trustees on at least two separate
occasions measured it up and it exceeds the Town Code
requirement of not exceeding 100 square feet.
MR. LARK: Would you accept a certification from the surveyor as
to what they actually are, a licensed surveyor?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: I saw what the licensed survey said. A landing
is not the same as a deck. In other words, the platform, we are
talking apples and oranges here.
MR. LARK: No, you are not. It's not a platform and it's not a deck.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No, I would have to say that the members of
this Board are capable of making physical measurements with a
tape. Some of us have done it for quite a while.
MR. LARK:,So you are disputing the measurement of the surveyor?
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: No, I'm disputing the fact that we have an
application that says 75-square feet and we measured up a
landing. We didn't-- it's not arguable that we have a 75-square
feet of quote landing, but the platform beneath including the
area covered by the stairs is in excess of 120 square feet.
MR. SELIGMANN: All I can tell you, I don't want to get into that
semantics. My only comment again is going back to the structural
issues of being able to anchor the stairs to the wall. They
required that landing to be that way. That should answer that
question.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The physical dimensions of a platform is
what we are talking about here. So I think the upper retaining
structure, there is serious concern by the Board, the upper
retaining wall, there again, it might be a great limiter for
limiting lawn and other such areas but the fact is it has an
east facing slope, so with driven rain, wind and snow, the Board
is concerned it starts to be a focal point for erosion. I think
the members of the Board feel that upper retaining wall cut
flush to the grade would be more appropriate given the typical
storms and the face of it that it's at. And it's a highly •
unusual place. There again, it did not have the benefit of a
permit so the Board was not involved in a discussion with the
engineers or engineering staff ahead of time as to the size and
scope of the construction.
MR. SELIGMANN: I can address the upper wall. Again, there are
several retaining walls there built especially for the purpose
to limit the amount of erosion potential that is there. It's not
just one wall at the top and one at the bottom. We limited --the
slip surface of the slope is limited by those walls. That's why
they are designed that way.
As far as the location of the wall, I guess you are asking
two things, you are asking the height--
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: The issue now is the height, because
behind it to the house ward side is sloped away now and you have
gorgeous drainage on the property. So it should not be an issue
with erosion or water there. But it's seaward, the seaward side
of it is still some whatever, 18 inches approximately above, 12,
18 inches above--
Board of Trustees 48 August 19, 2015
MR. SELIGMANN: 12 inches above.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: (Continuing) 12 inches above, and there is
just a concern that while we are addressing issues after the
fact, ex post facto, if you have an engineering thought that is
counter to the feelings of the Board and our experience, we are
thinking this probably could be cut flush and would minimize
those concerns we have.
MR. SELIGMANN: I think having a physical barrier between the
slope going to the west and the bluff is an advantage because
you would not have any rainwater or any wind, rain or snow
action that is on the other side of the wall, the water will
drain to the west, as you point out, the nice drainage that was
created. If you cut the wall flush, now you have potential for
it to erode and now it can erode back over to the other side and
now you would be creating potential problem on the bluff side.
That wall is 16 feet into the ground. That is not, I don't
see -- I understand your concern but I think it's actually
better to have a physical delineation between the two to allow
the drainage that was designed to go to the west to go to the
west, and not potentially have erosion once you cut that flush,
and now to potentially erode over the wall and now you create a
problem.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Here is the thought I have. The ever-present
deer you mentioned, deer running up and down these slopes. Now
when the deer tries go north and south, he runs along the wall,
next thing you know there is no lawn there and there is no
vegetation along the wall.
MR. SELIGMANN: Should we put a sign saying no deer crossing
here?
Obviously we can't--that was a little tongue in cheek, I'm
sorry.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: We have all seen bluff failure already,
caused by deer, and here not only is this barrier, but there
again, every foot or two we see above grade with a smooth
surface, I'm just sort of trying to think through this.
appreciate your take on it. And the Board has heard it.
Does the Board have any additional questions?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Are there any outstanding violations right now,
on this property? Do we know? Are there any outstanding
violations?
MS. HULSE: Yes, there are.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay. And our attorney just said there are. Just
for informational purposes, it is not our habit to grant a
permit when there are outstanding violations. So it's just a
suggestion the outstanding violations get taken care of because
that will sure expedite things.
MR. LARK: Yes. We put them on hold pending the outcome of this
hearing.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: All I'm saying is that it's not our habit to
issue permits when there is outstanding violations.
MS. HULSE: To release permits, right.
Board of Trustees 49 August 19, 2015
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. To release permits. Yes
MR. SELIGMANN: If I can, one more, to discuss the deer. There is
a fence this high on the other side of that wall also and there is a
fence to the neighbor to the north as well. So as far as the deer are
concerned, there is a barrier there no matter what. For them. Thank you.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Thank you. I don't know how the Board feels
about this, but I'm uncomfortable with moving to an approval
phase tonight without possibly looking at the site one more time
or taking up some of the issues that we have discussed here
during the course of the hearing for consideration that the
project is taking several years,to move ahead without our -
approval, it doesn't seem like we necessarily want to move to a
different phase, and given the fact that there is a violation
that would be a wise maybe to settle ahead of that. I don't
know how the other Board members feel. I want to share that.
TRUSTEE KING: For four years this has been going on. We start
out with a single stairway going down with a 32-square foot
platform on it. And this is what it's grown to. Very disturbing.
Very troubling to me. Personally.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: It's very troubling to all of us.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: If I could just make a suggestion for the
applicant. Obviously you have heard what the Board has had to
say tonight. A suggestion to go back to your client for
consideration. You have heard discussion about the top wall.
You have heard discussion about the landings being in excess of
code; and you've heard discussion about the stair, the
construction standards of the stair. So just something to go
back and have a conversation to see if there is any opportunity
for amendment, movement, whatever. And not to be forgotten in
all this, definitely, I know for myself, I agree, I do see a
need for erosion control with the problems that you are having
with the two sides, the east and west side. We saw that in the
field, and agree there needs to be something done to address
that erosion. I don't want that to be forgotten. We started with
that discussion, we've gotten into other discussions, I just
want to make sure you understand I don't have a problem with
that. And I think the Board agrees. Some type of erosion control
is needed as long as it's engineered correctly and it doesn't
have a negative impact on the neighbors.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: That sounds like a great suggestion. I think
it's a worthy one. If we are to employ that suggestion of Trustee
Bergen then we should probably table the application and maybe
table it for a limited time of one month to allow the applicant
to gets back to us if there are some discussions amongst the
applicant, their engineer and Ms. Emery to get back to us in
case we needed a further amendment to what is before us before
we close the public hearing and move into a potential permitting
phase. Does that sound reasonable?
MR. LARK: Yes.
TRUSTEE DOMINO: Yes.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All right, is there anyone else who wishes
Board of Trustees 50 August 19, 2015
to speak to this application?
(No response).
Hearing no further comments or concerns I'll make a motion to
table this application for one month to allow the applicant to
consider some of the discussions we have had here and possibly
bring us a return, ideally if there was a request for change you
could come before next month's field surveys which are scheduled
for September 9th, so that the Board would have the opportunity
for any change you would propose to review during monthly field
surveys. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion made and second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: Motion to adjourn.
TRUSTEE KING: Second.
TRUSTEE BREDEMEYER: All in favor?
(ALL AYES).
Respectfully submitted by,
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John M. Bredemeyer III, President
Board of Trustees
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