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PRESENT:
Page
PUBLIC HEARING BY AND BEFORE THE SOUTHOLD
TOWN BOARD, HELD ON THE llTH DAY OF
FEBRUARY, 1987 AT 2:00 P.M., AT THE
SOUTHOLD SENIOR/YOUTH CENTER, PECONIC LANE,
PECONIC, NEW YORK, IN THE MATTER OF "A LOCAL
LAW TO AMEND THE SOUTHOLD TO[~N ZONING CODE
AND ZONING MAP INCORPORATED THEREIN, TO
IMPLEMENT, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, THE
RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE ~STER PLAN UPDATE
PREPARED BY THE PLANNING BOARD."
FRANCIS J. MURPHY, Supervisor
PAUL STOUTENBURGH, Councilman
JAMES A. SCHONDEBARE, Councilman
JEAN W. COCHRANE, Councilwoman
GEORGE L. PENNY, IV, Councilman
JUDITH T. TERRY, Town Clerk
JUSTICE RAYMOND W. ED~ARDS
DAVID EMILITA, Planner
ROBERT W. TASKER, ESQ., Town Attorney
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[THIS PORTION OF THE PUBLIC HEARING WAS
CONVENED AT 2:15 P.M.]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Board,
speak
MRS. MARRINER:
Please, when you address the Town
please be sure to identify yourself and
slowly so we can pick the name up. Jeanne?
My name is Jeanne Marriner; Mattituck.
I'm speaking as a private citizen,
long time taxpayer and resident. I am speaking
for my family, and also for my friends and other
residents who are unable to be here, or who have
stopped me on the street and in church and asked
me to voice their concerns, and for the sur~%er
residents and tourists, who also contribute to
the economic base, and who come to Southold Town
to get away from crowds and pollution, and who,
also, want the Town to protect the quality of
life that makes the Town so very special.
Members of the Board, we are all
greatly concerned that the proposed zoning will
severely adversely impact on that quality of
life. We believe that we have a right to know
just what the impacts could be and how the Town
proposes to deal with them to protect our health
safety and economic wellbeing.
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If through poor land use planning you
wreck our environment, you also wreck our
economy. So, I ask you, as I did last October,
as President of the League of Women Voters, to
reconsider your decision and to do a full
environmental quality review of the proposed
zoning.
The SEQRA review process would allow
us to see the costs and benefits of the zoning
and its effect on our tax structure. What will
it cost us, as taxpayers, to put in water mains,
sewers and other town facilities and services
needed to sustain growth and development?
What effect on our already serious
traffic situation and on our groundwater supply,
and on our coastal waters?
How will we manage larger amounts of
solid waste?
What will the proposed zoning and
ensuing growth do to our woodlands, wetlands,
open spaces, historic area, beaches and other
resources, which are the foundation of much of
our economic base?
The results of a generic impact
statement will allow us and you, our town
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officials, to determine what zoning regulations
are really needed to phase in growth and how
much growth Southold Town can economically and
environmentally handle and still maintain its
tourist attractiveness and quality of life for
all of us who live here.
It is not unusual for town officials
to protect the quality of life of their town
through zoning. Time and again the courts have
upheld three, five and ten acre zoning and
moratoriguns as a means of protecting groundwater
supply and quality of life in environmentally
fragile areas; and you have only to look at a
map of Long Island to realize that most of
Southold Town is in the coastal zone and
environmentally very sensitive. In fact, our
fragile groundwater situation and the value of
the Peconic Bay's estuary system is cited in a
number of state, county and re9ional documents
as needing protection.
Here in Southold Town, we have the
same legal right as East Hampton and Oyster Bay
Towns to limit future growth in accordance with
our economic and environmental resources.
The courts uphold town officials who
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recognize that their first obligation is to
their present residents.
Let's find out what are limits
actually are and what kind of development will
actually advance the goals of our Master Plan.
A SEQRA review process can help us determine our
proper destiny.
I realize that the SEQRA process is
not an easy task and it does cost money. But,
if done properly,
many more dollars
protect
it will show us
in the long run,
the quality of life.
Don't we, the present residents of the
how to save
and also
Town of Southold, deserve to have zoning laws
that measure the effect of land use on the
quality of life and economic welfare of the
community rather than zoning based on the highes-
economic return to the developers?
Thank you for allowing me to speak.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. In the front?
MR. PROUD:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honorable
members of the Town Board. My name is Geoff
Proud. I speak for the group, Citizen Action Fo]
Affordable Housing, Southold people who need
housing, but cannot afford to buy the high-price
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condominiums currently being built in our town.
We wish to persuade the Town's
leadership to actively encourage the building
of housing, both for ownership and for rental,
which is within the price range of average
families; in particular, young families who are
just starting up and elderly people whose income
is limited.
When this organization formed two
years ago, it had as an objective the
incorporation of an affordable housing ordinance
into the Town's Master Plan. Citizen Action
worked closely with the Southold Housing
Advisory Committee to achieve this objective.
To the extent that the Town is aware of its
affordable housing shortage and the problem is
acknowledged in Article V of the Revised Zoning
Ordinance, we are pleased with the progress
that has been made. The Town Board deserves to
be commended for its effort up to this point,
but there is more to be done.
So far, not a single housing unit in
the affordable range has been built despite
everyone's effort. Is that because building
and development have been halted across the
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board, out of concern for the precarious
state of Southold's natural resources? Not at
all.
In the past two years, hundreds of
housing units in price ranges twice what working
people can afford have been built and continue
to be built with the approval of the Town Board
and the Planning Board.
While we are often reminded that
"we don't want another Jericho Turnpike or
another Syosset out here," two auto body shops,
an all-night gas station/combination
convenience store, and the beginnings of a
shopping strip have developed on the North Road.
Luxury development tracts spring up all around
us: Cove Shore Estates, Homestead Acres,
Founders Village, and more to come.
Zoning ordinances, tax laws, builder
profits, investor opportunities, all favor the
building of high-priced condominiums over
modest affordable housing. Unless government
leadership intervenes, there is no chance of
righting this imbalance and %he Town obtaining
the kind of housing it really needs for its
social and economic well-being.
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There is no disputing the fact that
Southold's natural resources are limited and
fragile. But if that be the case, should not
the people living and working here have first
call on them?
Ironically, the Boards' land use
policies, whether they realize it or not, have
worked against everyone's purpose. The two-acre
moratorium has artificially inflated land values
and made the use of the land most attractive
to absentee investors and to persons whose
resources allow them to build
two-acre estates.
Running its logical
zoning will result in no open
second homes on
course, two-acre
spaces at all;
but instead, residences will be sprawled out all
over the countryside, with everyone requiring
two or more motor vehicles. The policy's
detrimental effect on the working economy will
turn Southold not into Syosset, rather into an
economically depressed colony.
The urgency of the affordable housing
crisis is announced by many voices. In a
letter to his pastors, the Catholic Bishop of
Long Island called it "an immense and urgent
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need," and said that, "Our towns and villages
must.., cooperate in every possible way to
resolve this tragic problem."
The Long Island Association (LIA),
the group which looks after Long Island's
economy, states in its report on housing that,
"Many communities and local governments do not
comprehend the necessity of pursuing (affordable
housing) projects with the initiatives and
resources necessary .... "
"The time has now come," the report
goes on, "to move from talking about the issue
to taking specific actions to increase the
amount of affordable housing on Long Island.
Without it, our parents, our employees and our
employers may find that they cannot and will
not be a part of the Long Island community any
longer." Newsday, the New York Times, the Daily
News and local papers chronicle the problem with
a steady output of news, features and editorial
comment.
Suffolk County established a special
executive level office for housing advocacy.
Nassau County initiated special legislation to
assist the elderly in obtaining suitable homes.
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Ordinarily, the influence and actions
of powerful institutions like these would be
enough to forestall a housing crisis. But in
this case, they are frustrated because the
control of land use is in the hands of each
individual town and incorporated village.
Although local governments are
generally thought of as weak and limited in
the powers they can exercise on their own, it
is their unique prerogative, by means of zoning
laws, to control the availability and
distribution of housing -- shelter, a basic
human necessity as essential as food and
clothing.
This is why all the voices are
directed at the leaders of local government.
And why local officials are being called upon to
exercise a responsibility, the gravity of which
they may never have felt before.
The Town Master Plan, with its
connotation of a new beginning, offers an
excellent opportunity for leadership to take
hold on this responsibility and ach decisively.
Set a land use policy which is positive toward
affordable housing needs, not merely neutral
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and passive. Pass zoning ordinances for
affordable housing with a determination to makin~
them work. Adopt an unprejudiced, cordial and
cooperative attitude toward builders who
address the affordable housing problem.
While the current revision of the
proposed Master Plan includes an Affordable
Housing District ordinance, the ordinance has
not given us any housing. And since it has
been criticized as "unworkable" in its present
form, it would not seem to offer much hope for
the future. It definitely needs work.
In the light of all that we hear about
the housing crisis, Citizen Action urges the
Board to regard the present revision of the
Master Plan as having brought us only so far,
and not to stop fixing it until it works for
people here who need housing.
Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Geoff. Next speaker?
MR. MC LAUGHLIN: J. Kevin McLaughlin. I am here
representing Richard Mullen and Esther Pilles.
Two letters previously have been sent to the
Board, and I would just like to review the
contents of the letters sent to you on
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January 20, 1987.
Richard Mullen is the record owner
of certain parcels on the south side of Main
Road in Southold, New York, which have been used
for over thirty years as an automobile showroom
and dealership by Mullen Motors, Inc. The tax
map numbers on those parcels are 1000-62-3-10.002
11 and 20.
Esther Pilles is the record owner of
a parcel on the north side of Main Road,
Southold, New York, which has been used for over
thirty years as a body shop adjunct of Mullen
Motors, Inc., and for thirty years prior to
that was the site of Mullen Motors, Inc.; the
parcels 1000-62-Lot 12.
Apparently, in response to previous
letters sent to the Board by Mr. Price,
Lots 11 and 20 were changed from a Hamlet
Business District, in which an automobile
dealership is not a permitted use, to a
Business District, in which an automobile
dealership is a permitted use. As a result,
Lots 10.003 and 12 remained in the Hamlet
Business District.
In the event this proposed zoning
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regulation and Master Plan are adopted as
presently constituted, the uses on these two
lots will become nonconforming uses.
result in a very substantial decrease
value of my clients' property, as the non-
conforming status of these parcels could be
extinguished by sale, fire loss or other
contingency.
It is our position that to have these
two parcels remain in a Hamlet Business Distric~
would be confiscatory. Additionally, it would
be discriminatory, as other automobile
dealerships in the town have been placed in
Business Districts.
Volinski Oldsmobile, located on
Traveler Street in Southold, is within a
This would
in the
Business District, as is Wells Pontiac, located
in Peconic. In fact, an amendment to the
proposed Master Plan was made on October 21,
1986 to include another lot used by Wells
Pontiac to that Business District. This
amendment was labeled a technical correction,
indicating that this added lot should have been
originally included in that Business District.
I will hand up a copy of that letter
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and just, very briefly, it seems illogical to
me to take four lots that are used for one
purpose and to keep two of them in a Hamlet
Business District, making them nonconforming
uses, while having the other two in the General
Business District, where they would be
conforming uses.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. SMITH:
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Okay. In the rear?
Marjorie Smith; Orient. I am speaking
for the Orient Association.
The Orient Association supports
wholeheartedly the North Fork Environmental
Council's opposition to the new zoning
classification, Marine Business District.
In Orient, this new zoning would have
an adverse impact in two areas; namely, the
Narrow River Marina and Orient Yacht Club.
Very strict regulations are needed
regarding fueling. These critical environmental
areas should have Type 1 Action under SEQRA with
the long assessment form, and the same
restrictions should be applied to the five-acre
zoning in Orient.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. NEEFUS:
Thank you. In the front?
Good afternoon. I am Pamela Neefus,
Salt Lake Village, Mattituck. I represent the
eighteen households in the Salt Lake Association
We have expressed our concerns in
writing to the Town Board and have not received
a reply. We feel, therefore, that our town
officials are insensitive to our concerns
regarding our health, safety and economic
welfare.
While we recognize the need for
boating facilities for area residents, we do not
believe that restaurants, hotels, etcetera are
water-related uses that should be sited on
fragile creeks in residential areas. We concur
with the recommendations of the Conservation
Advisory Council for marina zoning on these
creeks. We also support the concerns of our
neighbors on the east side of James Creek with
regard to hamlet density zoning in sensitive
locations.
In view of the precarious condition of
our creeks and bays, which provide us with so
much recreational enjoyment in Southold Town,
the Salt Lake Association asks that a full
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. DOUGLASS:
environmental impact assessment of all the
proposed zoning on our waterways be completed to
determine the effects of increased development
on our creeks, bays and groundwater supply.
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Thank you. Again, anyone else who
would like to address the Board, please use the
mike in the rear and please line up to it.
George, go head.
My name is Pat Douglass. I am from
Orient.
I think we all agree that the Master
Plan has problems and limitations as it exists
now, but it will not improve with more
limitations. I am most concerned with the marine
recreation and marine business portion. I have
heard that some want to restrict these sections
most of all. I have trouble with this for two
main reasons.
First~ it sends the message that we
want the tourist's dollars, but not the tourists.
A lot of people are happy to see outsiders'
money spent in Southold Town. It helps our
economy, but then we complain about the
inconvenience, which is natural.
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We can't have it both ways. By not
allowing marinas to supply laundry facilities,
sell food and supplies, or even to have
facilities for repairs, we send the message to
those tourists who come by boat, "Don't bother
to come."
Boaters actually are ideal guests.
They don't use up our parking spaces. But when
they travel, they do need some services to
attract them. After traveling for several days,
it can be necessary to wash clothes and buy
supplies. Some boaters would like these
facilities where, or near to where, they stay.
Also, sometimes boats, like cars and
other means of transportation, break down and
need repairs. People are not going to come to
an area if they know they will not be able to
find any assistance. By supplying these
facilities, it would not necessarily put a
strain on the ecology. Boaters don't want to
spoil what they have come to enjoy, the clean
water and the quaint villages.
My second and major concern is for
the residents already here and the ones yet to
come. A big attraction to a lot of people who
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live here is the access to the water and water
sports. By putting limits on marina expansion,
we are restricting the residents' ability to
use what they moved out here to enjoy.
Dock space is already at a premium.
Many marinas have waiting lists. More boats are
being bought by locals. These lists will be
getting longer. Many people want to buy bigger
boats as their families grow or their economic
situations change. They will need space. Other~
will want to buy their first boat, and they will
need space.
If existing marinas can't expand or
new marinas cannot be built, there won't be the
space needed.
Also, if some businesses do not have
the opportunity to expand, they run the risk of
eventually going out of business. This takes
away taxes and jobs, both needed for the health
of Southold Town.
bigger developers,
It will also open the area to
the only ones who would have
the money needed to make buying a large tract
of waterfront property feasible. The developmen·
of condos or large developments seems to be the
biggest nightmare of most people who fight for
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open space.
Southold Town may need to slow down
its growth, but we can't afford to stop it
altogether. Anything that is stagnant eventuall'
dies. None of us wants that to happen, but
that can happen if the Master Plan does not
allow for expansion.
from growing.
growth.
We cannot stop Southold
The Master Plan has to allow for
It can't stop time and have Southold
Town remain as it is now forever.
Even as it is written now, it does not
reflect existing conditions. Several rental
docks that would be classified as marine
recreation under the plans outlined are not even
on the map. There are no areas that are
currently not used for marine purposes marked
to allow growth of existing business or allow
for a new one to start. A Master Plan should
allow for opportunities for all of Southold's
residents, not limit them to a few.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
your prepared statement in? Thank you.
Mr. Husing?
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Mrs. Douglass, would you mind turning
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. MAC PHAIL:
George Husing. I am speaking on
behalf of myself. We own property south of
Route 25 between Bay Avenue and Sigbee Road.
The present Master Plan calls for two
acre zoning. The use of the Sigbee Development,
where the properties are fifty feet wide and on
the west, the Bay Development, which many of the
lots are only forty feet wide; also, on Route 25
adjacent to the property is a business zoning
to the east and also on the west, and we request
that the zoning be half acre at the most and
possible business zoning along Route 25 for a
depth of approximately two hundred feet.
Thank you.
Thank you. In the rear?
My name is Katherine MacPhail, and
I am speaking for Camp Mineola East. We are
just east of James Creek, and I just want to
make two comments about the possibility of
expanding the Strong Marina area there.
That area is built on marsh. It was
a complete marsh with litte streams, and it
flooded at high tide, then it was filled in with!
mud and sand from the creek and gravel on top.
It doesn't seem like an area that could stand
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many enterprises that
cesspools.
took water or reauired
If you want water there,
go back toward the old mainland,
intrudes upon the water rights,
possibilities of people already living there.
you have to
and that
the water
At high tide, especially a strong tide still
backs up in the creek enough to flood the
cellars back on the mainland, back off the
marsh where nothing has been built yet.
It is just a very fragile piece of
Please speak into the mike. Thank
property.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
you.
MRS. MAC PHAIL:
marinas
empties
Then, one other thing. There are two
on that creek now. When the creek
out, it would be nice, of course, if it
could go right out to the bay, but on the
southwest and west winds, it doesn't go on into
the bay, it turns and goes east and comes right
along the bathing beach, and if you are bathing
there when the high tide has turned and starts
out, you can feel it like a slow river moving.
We are already getting pollution from
the two marinas, and if the marina is expanded
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more, we are going to have a real health and
pleasure problem bathing there on the beach.
I just feel that that area is too
fragile to have any further expansion of marina
activity.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. TIEDKE:
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Thank you.
I am Jean Tiedke, and I am speaking
for myself and not for my organization, but
almost ever since we moved here in 1964, I have
been associated, in one way or another, with
master plans, and here comes another one.
There are some useful and innovative
sections in this new zoning code. The separatio]
of R-40 from larger parcels in Article 3-A
should prove very helpful. The new Article 4,
Hamlet Density, should be useful; the affordable
housing district is badly needed and cluster
development, I think may prove to be the most
useful and most innovative article in the entire
Code in terms of maintaining open space, as well
as a very human and village type of community.
This list of definitions that you have
also, is a great improvement but, however, it
does not include any parks, playgrounds, golf
courses, proposed recreation, no areas forever
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wild or open space; no clue is given as to
which areas of the town are already developed
or where the well-known centers of the hamlets
Fortunately, those of us who live in
them know, but a stranger would have no idea.
Nothing indicates where vacant lands have
already received permission for development, the
size of that development or the acreage.
The once-considered greenbelt --
remember the greenbelt for Sound to Bay hiking
has been completely dropped.
There is no scale on that map that
was provided to the library. Wetlands and
marshes are not indicated, nor were freshwater
ponds, stream or vernal ponds.
Back in 1969, the acquisition of more
waterfront for public recreation in our
community was recommended by the then town
planner, who also recommended that the valuable
salt marshes to the north of Hallock's Bay
should be acquired for posterity. Neither
recommendation came to pass. Memories like
this serve to dampen one's enthusiasm for this
new plan.
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However, Article VI, Resort
Residential, is extraordinarily permissive and
will, indeed, cover the waterfront.
Special exceptions abound if water
and sewer are available. There is no suggestion
anywhere that I could find that we may not get
sewers all over town, but they are mentioned in
many places. Even with water and sewers, elbow
to elbow development of the shorefront would not~
be appropriate for many reasons; and some
pollution of bays and creeks will increase with
population density whether we have sewers or
not, and no matter what precautions are taken.
Consider the traffic down our
relatively narrow roads, which might require
either special traffic control, minibus service
from large inland parking areas, or widening of
the mostly narrow residential side streets that
lead to the water. This is what could happen if
the entire waterfront is developed by houses or
by business.
Given the limited acreage along our
waterfront that is still available for
development, there is little chance of inadequat,
increase in public access to shoreline without
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encroaching on our wetlands. This may all be
gobbled up by the Marine Business Zone which,
with all its special exceptions, will be
advantageous for some, but chaotic along our
waterfronts unless great attention and care is
given to these problems.
Certainly, the year-round public will
not benefit to any great extent. The only
minimum size restriction I could find refers
to transient motels or motels on not less than
five acres. There is no indication what size
marinas might occupy. Perhaps, we will end up
with an array of mini-marinas along our
shoreline. Wouldn't that be pretty?
We were warned several years ago by
Arthur Kunz that shoreline development would
squeeze out access to our beaches, and it is
indeed occurring.
How effective the Agriculture-
Conservation District, Article III, will be or
could be remains to be seen. Unless farming is
encouraged and can remain viable as an income
producer, more farms will inevitably be sold for
development. In that case, the farmstands
would become a thing of the past.
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My opinion of the A-C District is
that it should stand by itself, severed from
A-80, A-120, etcetera. The preservation of our
agriculture areas should be paramount in
Southold Town. Recreational activities, such
as sailing, motorboating and resort living wax
and wane with the economic status of the country
To enhance our agricultural future, some special
inducements might be necessary. More attention
could be paid to diversifying crops and,
possibly, processing some
other markets on a larger
done.
foods for shipment to
scale than is now
Because agriculture is so important,
the A-C Zones should be set up as follows: 3-A,
Agriculture-Conservation District; 3-B, Low
Density Conservation District; R-80 to R-400 and
3-C, Low Density Residential, R-40 as it is now.
It is high time, also, that we have
affordable housing. That is housing that does
not break the family bank. I believe such
housing should be scattered throughout our
communities, a few here and a few there, so
these people can feel welcome and a part of our
community. We must be able to bring in more
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young people and more young families for our
future.
According to the Code, special
exceptions -- I think were formerly variances
and that sort of thing, is that correct -- can
be granted by the Town Board, the Planning Board
or the Zoning Board of Appeals. I think,
perhaps, a special committee should be set up,
perhaps one member from each of the three Boards
mentioned, perhaps two from the public sector
and, if necessary, specialists in areas
pertaining to special situations could be called
in to assist. An informal meeting could precede
any formal presentations to the Planning Board,
the Zoning Board or the Board of Appeals, in
which case money and time on both sides might
be saved.
The number and variety of special
exceptions which are listed in many of the
Articles could easily give the impression that
almost anything goes if your luck holds out.
There are close to fifty exceptions listed, and
many appear in several articles duplicated over
and over again.
The Limited Business District,
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Article VIII, is a good example of a programmed
state of confusion which exists in this Code.
Permitted uses: everything allowed in the A-C
District, plus twelve other multiple uses. In
addition, special uses as listed in the A-C
Special Use List, 1 through 8. Incredible. And
I almost forgot to mention there are also a few
accessory uses allowed.
Similar permitted uses and special
exception uses appear in other articles in
various combinations. In every instance, the
reason for any given article is so diluted by
the range of references to other articles, that
most of them, to my mind, make very little sense.
There is a limit to our groundwater
supply, even though that limit cannot be
exactly identified, unless salt intrusion
occurs or wells run dry. Our groundwater supply
is a movable feast, depending upon whether we
are in a drought or in a period of normal or
excessive rainfall. The Code does not appear
to address this problem. So, we cannot increase
our population by X number of people during one
or two decades of so-called normal rainfall and
then in a period of drought tell half of them
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to go away or, perhaps, turn summer people back
at the town line.
Before adopting this zoning code and
map, it might be helpful to review some of the
previous planning and groundwater projections
and studies. Determine what worked, or did not
work, what may have been unnecessary and what
was neglected. A few studies come to mind:
Raymond & May, Malcolm Pirnie, H2M,
New York State Department of Health, the
Nassau-Suffolk Regional Planning Board, U.S.
Geological Survey, the Northeast-Midwest
Coalition and the League of Women Voters Public
Opinion Survey.
Following such a review of all these
and considering comments from this public
meeting, as well as other sources of comment,
such as the newspapers, perhaps you should set
up a new committee consisting of one
representative from each Town Board, someone
from the CAC and other advisory groups, and a
cross-sample from the public; perhaps, five
public members, people who have no economic
ax to grind.
This committee could then sort out
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the comments, either good or bad, or
indifferent, determine whether any adjustments
are required and then forge ahead. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. WEISBERGER:
Thank you, Jean. In the rear?
My name is Freddie Weisberger. I am
on the Orient Association Committee for the
Preservation of Hallock's Bay, and I would like
to address the serious threat to Hallock's Bay
that will be caused by the present Marine
Business Article.
I'd like to quote from just a brief
paragraph from the
which mentions the
Hampton waters and
New York Times of last March,
closing of several of East
says, in The Times, "Quite
clearly, the pollution of the Three Mile Harbor
originates in the marinas in the boating season.'
Later on, the article says, "The East
Hampton Supervisor declared an active war
beginning with the establishment of an
interagency task force, including the Town
Planning Board, Appeals Board, environmental
director, bay constable, Highway Department,
and every agency having anything to do with
zoning, boating, storm water runoff, septic
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systems for waterfront properties, Supervisor
Hope said."
Later, in the same article,
Councilman Stoutenburgh is quoted.
"Mr. Stoutenburgh, a well-known naturalist on
the North Fork," saying, "People accused the
towns of Door planning, but who knew any better
years ago?"
The Board will remember over a year
ago we had a meeting to discuss the designation
of the Hallock's Bay as an environmentally
sensitive area. Nothing happened for a period
of about six months after that, although the
Board expressed its willingness and eagerness
to protect the bay and how to make such a
margin.
Last October, after prodding again
from the Association, a meeting was held, and
after the meeting I wrote a letter to Councilman
Stoutenburgh in which I said that it was the
understanding of members of the Orient
Association, members who were present at the
meeting, that safeguards equal to those which
would be obtained by critical designation would
be written into the zoning under the new Master
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Plan. We would
is, indeed, the
advised as to the
regulation.
like to be assured that this
intent of the Board and to be
specific contents of the
That letter that I wrote was dated
October 27th, and we never received a reply to
it, and clearly no such elements are written
into the current Master Plan.
I would like to suggest that if the
Board really is aware and agreed with the great
number -- greatest number of its constituents
who believe that Hallock's Bay is sensitive and
needs to be preserved that, first of all, such
requirements, such safeguards, I should say,
as would be included in the critical
designation should, indeed, be written into the
Master Plan as the Board had apparently
expressed its intention to do.
I was not at that meeting, but that
was my understanding of what people felt had,
in fact, been said at the meeting. Then, those
safeguards should, indeed, be written into the
Master Plan.
Secondly, that such an article as that
addressing Marine Business should be altered
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MS. MOORE:
an
to take into consideration the different
conditions and different situations and the
different marinas according to the sensitivity
of the creeks and waterways on which they exist.
Thirdly, that at the very least, the
very minimum, a critical enviromental study
should be done of the entire Master Plan. I
think it is very important, and the Board
certainly must realize that inaction paradoxical~
is not not doing anything. It is definitely
doing something, and inaction in this case is
severely threatening, in fact insuring the
destruction of a very sensitive and very valuabl.
waterway such as the creek.
Thank you.
Good afternoon.
attorney with the office of Edson &
We represent Ethel Schroeder, who owns
station on the
Marion.
Thank you.
I am Patricia Moore,
south side of Main Road
Bruer.
a gas
in East
The property we ask you to review and
incorporate into the Master Plan is a service
station which was in existence prior to the
zoning. The proper zoning for Mrs. Schroeder's
property is a B Zone, which allows a public
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garage or service station by special exception
of the Zoning Board of Appeals.
This is a reasonable request and
consistent with your action on the Finkle
property in Orient. Mrs. Schroeder's property,
like Mr. Finkle's property, presents a non-
conforming, preexisting service station in
a currently and proposed Agricultural-Residential
Zone.
Both properties are small, yet taxed
as commercial property. Those properties should
have been included in 1957 as Business Zones,
and certainly as Business Zone in 1972 when the
zoning of Southold Town was revised. Both
properties are similarly located on ~4ain Road.
In fact, Mrs. Schroeder's property is
substantially more commercial than the Finkle
property, which is the only B Zone on Main Road
in Orient.
The Schroeder property is across the
road from Skipper's Restaurant, which by the
way, was also overlooked, a quarter mile from
Helenic Snack Bar and one-half mile from the
commercial areas in Greenport.
The Board has an opportunity to cure
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a nonconforming use by granting Mrs. Schroeder
her requested General Business Zone, and in
light of the Board's action on the Finkle
property, Mrs. Schroeder's request
with the Master Plan.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. HALSEY:
Thank you.
Thank you.
In the rear?
is consistent
Cynthia Halsey. I live at 50 Oaklawn
Avenue in the Hamlet of Southold.
You have put my property into a new
kind of zone; namely, residential-office. I
don't think it is suitable for my property or
those near me. It is supposed to be a
transitional zone between housing and business.
There isn't anything to transition to because
we are protected on both sides, on one side by
the churches, and on the other side by the Town
Hall and the church. I think it would be a
great idea to put this back into residential.
However, if that isn't something you
want to do, I think you should define what an
office is. Everyone knows what a professional
office is, a doctor or a lawyer, and we have had
or have them there now.
However, what is a business office?
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What kind of business, what kind of office? How
does it guarantee that it will never become
a shop or commercial enterprise?
I wrote you last year about this time
asking you to please define it. You didn't. I
think you should because someday you surely will
have to,
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. KELLY:
Counsel,
and the sooner the better. Thank you.
Thank you. In the front?
Mr. Supervisor, members of the Board,
my name is Christopher Kelly. I am
a member of the law firm of Twomey, Latham,
Shea & Kelly. I am here on behalf of several
parties: the people who appear on the Young's
Marina, the North Fork Environmental Council
and on behalf of Bayview Realty Corporation,
which is an owner of a large tract surrounding
Page Cove and the Young's Marina property.
I am here today to speak in opposition
of the adoption of the proposed zoning code
and Master Plan in its current form for the
reasons I will explain.
I have two experts here today that I
would like to have testify as well, Larry Penny,
a well-known environmentalist and environmental
planner, and Frederick Reuter. If we could work
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this out, I would like to have them speak
consecutive to my remarks.
Mr. Penny has prepared a written
report, which you have before you, in a black
cover. I have submitted a legal memorandum,
which you also have before you with several
exhibits. Mr. Reuter will be working from a
draft statement that we can get a final product
to you on probably Monday or Tuesday of next
week, which has extensive analysis on a site by
site basis of the application of the Marine
Business and RR District Zone.
That's essentially why I am here today
to oppose the application of the proposed Marine
Business and Resort Residential Zones as they
are proposed in the Code.
Attached to my memorandum as Exhibits
A and B are letters from the Bayview Realty
Development Corporation. The first one is a
letter from the President opposing the proposed
Code because that corporation believes that the
present use around Page Cove is low density
residence.
The second exhibit is a letter
authorizing me to appear on their behalf and
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demonstrates their concern about preserving the
residential character of that area.
They have, as they indicate in that
letter, denied the expansion of the access road
that will enable the motel development of the
Young's Marina property. In addition, they have
offered to dedicate or donate the lands, the
underwater lands that they own to a conservancy
to protect that area for shellfishing in the
future.
The two grounds which form the basis
for our opposition are the failure of the Board
to comply with State Environmental Quality
Review Act as we see it and the planning aspect
of locating the MB Zoning and RR Zone on our
fragile creeks and tidal waterways.
I will address the SEQRA issues first.
As the Board is probably well aware, the State
Environmental Quality Review Act divides all
actions which an administrative body can take
into Type 1 and Type 2 Actions.
of the labels attached to those
presumption afforded to them by
to their environmental significance.
Type 1 Action is an action which, in
The significanc~
is the
the statue as
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almost all instances, will require the
preparation of Draft Environmental Impact
Statements. The reason is that type of action
is considered, in most all instances, to have
a significant impact on the environment or the
potential for that.
The State Environmental Quality
Review Acts implementing regulations drafted by
the Department of Environmental Conservation,
lists as Type 1 Actions the adoption by
municipalities of its land use plan. So, we
have a presumption attaching to the action you
are proposing to take, the adoption of a master
plan. The presumption is it will have a
significant impact on the environment and, thus,
the requirement of an environmental impact
statement.
The only way to do this is with a
description of this in an environmental assessme]
form, which will explain why the Board is not
preparing a draft environmental impact statement
and why one is not necessary.
We will submit to the Board that the
EIS prepared on this project does not give that
explanation and does not supply the criteria
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for giving what is called a negative declarati,
that you have given to this Type 1 Action.
Furthermore, I would submit that the
negative declaration resolved by this Board on
this proposal is inconsistent with the Board's
prior action. Specifically, the Board has
recognized that several projects similar to the
type of projects that this Code would enable
in Marine Districts, in the Marine Business and
the RR Zone, has recognized that this zoning
may have a significant impact on the
environment, and may have a negative impact on
the environment. The case in point is the
marina that I referred to earlier.
If any one of those particular sites
has a potential for a significant environmental
impact given their uses, the special exception
uses allowed under your Code, then certainly a
combination of those uses would, likewise, have
a significant effect or a potential for a
significant effect on the environment.
This is recognized by counsel to the
Board, who is quoted in the Suffolk Times of
October 16, 1986. Mr. Tasker said in that
article, "My own personal feeling is that the
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map has changed the zoning of a lot of
properties. If an individual came in and asked
for a similar zone change, he would have to
prepare an environmental impact statement.
Just because the Town Board is doing similar
changes on maps, how could you say the changes
wouldn't have a change on the environment? How
could the Town not do something it requires
individuals to do?"
This apparent inconsistency was
picked up by the Suffolk Times Editorial Board
who, in last week's edition, pointed out the
same problem by stating, "Still we have
concluded that organizations like the Southold-
Riverhead League of Women Voters and the North
Fork Environmental Council are correct in
calling for a full environmental impact
statement on the Master Plan."
As recorded in last week's edition,
"The Southold Trustees recently have invoked
the state environmental impact statement process
for a one house, one lot project on Meadow Lane
in Mattituck. If one house on one lot merits
environmental review, wouldn't it be prudent to
ask the same of a Master Plan affecting every
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creek and every piece of property in Southold
Town?" [APPLAUSE]
An additional problem with the SEQRA
review process that is being conducted by the
Board is that it results in an illegal
fragmentation of the various projects that could
result under the new zoning code. What we have
here is a collection of individual zone changes.
Any Master Plan that's comprehensive is such a
combination.
If any one of those projects would
have a significant effect on the environment,
like I just said, that would require the
preparation of an environmental impact statement
for any proposition, and that would enable
several of those changes; but in addition, even
if one standing alone didn't have a significant
effect on the environment, the combination of
the potential for these types of projects with
the synergistic effects, if you will, of these
zone changes must be looked at comprehensively
as a minimum in a generic environmental impact
statement.
The fact that some of the more
problematic uses in the MB and RR Zones are
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special exception uses rather than permitted
uses, does not relieve the Board of its
obligation to perform SEQRA review at this
stage of the process.
I referred in my memorandum to a very
recent case in November of 1986, in which an
applicant came before the Town of Claverack to
propose a mobile home park use, a change of zone
to allow that as a special exception use in the
change that he was looking for. The Board took
impact statements,
the road when the
had been changed,
the position that because the use would be a
special exception use in its zone change, that
it wasn't required to prepare environmental
that that could be done down
applicant, after the zoning
came into the Zoning Board of
Appeals for special exception use. The Court
said no, you can't do that.
I would like to read you the quote
from the Appellate Division, Third Department.
It said, "The Board maintains that the
environmental review was premature at the
rezoning stage inasmuch as a specific project
was not involved. The Board points out that
a mobile home park could not be established in
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the rezoned area absent granting of a special
exception use and reasons that environmental
consideration only
application.
"We disagree.
argument, it is quite
involved here was the
come into play upon such
Contrary to the Board's
clear that the rezoning
first step in the process
of developing the property as a mobile home
park. The Board is not restricted to a myopic
consideration of a proposed zone change, but
should identify at the rezoning change the
potential concerns at the very start of the
process.
"To be remembered is that an essential
purpose of SEQRA is to incorporate environmental
considerations into the governmental decision-
making process at the earliest possible time.
Under the circumstances presented, the Board was
SEQRA
obligated to satisfy the requirements of
prior to authorizing the rezoning.'
this case
versus Hess, is that we
blinders on at this new
we can look at SEQRA down the road.
What I am suggesting and what I think
suggests, the name of which is Drew
cannot look with
zoning change and say
First of
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all, that would undermine the intent of SEQRA.
You are passing the buck to a new Board, which
you can't do. It may be too late down the
road, especially when you are talking about the
massive zone changes that you are talking about
with your Code.
The specific land use planning issues
I will leave to my experts. The couple of
problems that we see, first of all, is the high
density that's available in these two zones
through special exception. The densities are
very high, and I think the Code fails to
recognize the environmental restraints that
exist on many of the sites that are proposed for
the RR and MB use.
As I said earlier, Mr. Reuter will take
a look at each of those sites, and has prepared
an analysis in chart form of the potential of
each of those sites to withstand the uses that
will be permitted or permitted by special
exception in those two districts.
I would like the Board to consider the
fact that with these two new districts, the
Code would allow approximately fifteen hundred
new motel units as a potential growth, and the
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that much expansion
fragile areas.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. KELLY:
majority which are along our waterways and
creeks. I think the Board should reconsider
that. I think it will be ill-advised to allow
in these sensitive and
Will you kindly sum up, please?
Last point. The delegation of powers
in the Code. I cited the Anderson in my
memorandum. I won't read it to you, but the
point is that the Board is giving an awful lot
of discretion to the Zoning Board of Appeals
that it should keep in its own grasp. It is
delegating very many uses without sufficient
standards.
The standards
are vague; they are not
are very general, they
sufficient to effectivel'
control hotel/motel and restaurant development.
Likewise, the standards are inconsistent in
that the densities talk about the availability
of community water and sewer, and at different
sections, talk about public water and sewer.
Well, public water and sewer have a
different connotation and different legal meanin(
than community water and sewer. Are we going
to require community owned wells? I think that'
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an ambiguity that has to be cleared up in the
Code.
With that, I would like to conclude
and suggest the Board go forward and prepare
an environmental impact statement and, in
addition, reconsider the density and numerosity
of uses in the MB-RR Districts.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
FLOOR:
MR. CAMPBELL:
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Thank you. In the rear?
Would it be possible to suggest that
the speakers be given a given period of time to
speak? There are lots of people present that
would like to speak.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: We would like to do that. The idea
of a public hearing is to allow people to be
heard and to tell us their feelings. We would
ask you to limit, if you can, in particular, whe]
you have a prepared statement, because these
will all become part of the record, and to try
to keep it as short as possible out of courtesy
to everyone here, but we do want to hear
everyone.
Go ahead.
Mr. Supervisor, members of the Board,
ladies and gentlemen, my name is Charles
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Campbell. I live in East Marion, and I am
speaking to you as the Acting Director of
the Plum Island Animal Disease Center. We are
concerned with affordable housing, and in order
to support our view, I have prepared a
statement which follows:
"On behalf of the Plum Island Animal
Disease Center of the U.S. Department of
Agriculture, I am requesting that the Master
Plan of the Town of Southold contain a strong
commitment to affordable housing. The shortage
of such housing is now having a very serious
effect on the ability of people to remain and
work in our communities and on other persons who
wish to move here to accept jobs.
"As you know, the Plum Island Animal
Disease Center is one of the larger employers
in this area, and has been so for many years.
We have long had the desire to employ local
people whenever possible, and through the years
the majority of our workers have come from this
area. However, in order to meet our needs, we
have also employed many people from other parts
of the country, and they have moved here, bought
homes, raised their families and contributed
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much to the local communities.
"We now find great difficulty in
employing qualified local people or people from
outside this area due in large measure to the
cost of housing. There simply is not enough
affordable housing available so that local young
people can stay here and people from outside
the area can move here to work. Consequently,
many qualified candidates for both blue collar
and white collar positions refuse our offers of
employment.
"Housing costs particularly affect our
ability to fill lower paying jobs. However,
these costs also affect employment for some of
our highest paid positions. For example,
candidates for two of our top management
positions recently refused our offers of
employment after talking with local realtors
and learning how much it would cost to live here
These candidates, one from the Washington, D.C.
area and the other from the Sacramento,
California area, would have received salaries
equal to or greater than their current salaries,
but the high cost of housing here was more than
they could afford.
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"At present, the payroll of this
center is over six million dollars per year, mos
of it earned by employees who live in Southold
Town. Our employees enjoy life in this area and
their many talents and economic
live.
future
is shared by
contribute
support to the communities in which they
The greatest concern that I have for the
of this Center, and this concern
officials at higher levels of our agency, is
our inability to attract employees, largely
because of the lack of affordable housing. We
now have twenty-one vacancies on our staff, some
of which we have been trying to fill for over
a year. The availability of affordable housing
would not only help us in our efforts to fill
such vacancies, but also would be of great
benefit to many other people and employers.
"Our communities are fast becoming
ones in which only people at the highest economJ
levels can afford to live. Therefore, I
strongly urge the officials of Southold Town to
include a definite, comprehensive design for
affordable housing in the Master Plan.
Sincerely, C. H. Campbell, Acting Director."
In the front?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
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MR. PENNY:
Larry Penny, Environmental Planner
and Ecologist. I grew up on the North Fork, the
first twenty-two years here, many in Mattituck,
and am well familiar with this North Fork. I
lived in the town and now on the South Fork.
Ail of my remarks are on the
statement that I have before you. I will try to
be very brief.
Primarily, I am here with respect to
the Marine Business and the Resort-Residential
Zone. I have just completed a water report for
the Town of East Hampton, Master Plan Water
Report, and the thing that is very obvious to
me, other than the farmlands and the great amoun~
of water, is the fact that you have a very
limited groundwater supply, and you really have
to come up with a strategy on how you are going
to apportion it.
One of the problems with this Marine
Business Zone and the Resort-Residential Zone,
as I see it -- these are located -- of course,
it has to be if it is marina, marinas have to
be on the water, but the point is that water
that goes into %hose facilities is lost to the
system. It is not recharged, not shifted back
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to the recharge area, to the aquifer. So, you
have to have a very conservative stance, I would
think, when you are thinking about bringing
water for, say, hamlet density, affordable
housing, other types of fairly dense water uses
upland.
I find it to be a very poor strategy
to talk from the other side of the mouth, to
talk of providing a dense use of water on the
waterfront. I think that's what you have here
on the Marine Business and in the Resort-
Residential Zone.
It looks like what you are doing is,
in order to provide places for boats and get
some little used sites active again -- I also
examined the sites with Mr. Fred Reuter -- you
are piggybacking onto the sites a great
multiplicity of uses, and some of these are
very intense; motels, restaurants and so forth,
and I think that's very unwise.
I think it is not unwise to have good
marinas. There is certainly a need for boat
space; and marinas, themselves, have to be
fairly carefully constrained according to
standards so that they don't pollute the water.
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But when you begin piggybacking on all these
other possible uses -- maybe restaurants is a
minor one, marine sanitation facilities can be
helpful if properly placed and if they are
hooked into a sewer, all the better -- but all
these other uses that are
two zones, it seems to me,
problematic.
and it
loaded
piggybacked into these
are really
I just made some small calculations,
seems to me we are talking about fairly
sites, on the area of thirty sites, where
we can load them up with motels, restaurants
and other uses, and we are kicking away out
of the Southold water supply something on the
order of five million gallons a day. I think
right now you are throwing, out of the Greenport
system, somewhere on the order of a million
gallons a day in the peak use in the summer.
You are really throwing a lot of your water
value away if you are going to load these.
There are special exception uses that
allow motels and restaurants. However, the
standards are not very clearly written. They
are not tied to maintaining water quality,
surface water quality. They are not tied to
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not depleting groundwater and so
are tied to what
written into the
code.
forth. They
I would call vagaries that are
ZBA Dart of the proposed zoning
I would say before you think in terms
of special exception uses like motels, and
restaurants and other high water uses in these
marina type districts, you would come up with
a very definite hard set of criteria other than
just, say, five acres minimum parcel size to
make sure of only a few sites, and especially,
I would like to see only those sites that are
hooked right into the sewage treatment facility
and do have a bountiful supply of water, and
supplying of such water is not going to endanger
other sources of water supply to the neighborhoo(
or the community, or that particular service
district.
I really think you should probably
come up with a water strategy before you kick
back these high water uses into the Marine
Business and the Resort-Residential Zone.
Secondly, I would point out that your
Master Plan has a marvelous water resources
section and development section. It says that
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you must protect your surface waters and your
wetlands, and it also says you have a very thin
groundwater lens, something that we all know.
It also says that fisheries and tourism are
cornerstones of your economic base, along with
agriculture. I would find it ironic if in the
rush to provide all these intense uses on the
shoreline, that the fisheries were destroyed
essentially, and they are being destroyed over
time because more water is being closed to
shellfishing and so forth.
If the shellfishing were destroyed and
tourism lost, that very powerful magnet, which
is the sportsfishing industry and the boating
industry, and the boating and clean water and
catching of fish -- very, very important -- so,
I would hope that you would take another look at
that, and I would hope that you would consider
very strongly doing an environmental impact
statement on this Master Plan or eliminate those
uses, one or the other; but if you are going to
try to throw those uses in on top of some very
good uses, I would say you are going to have to
do a very critical environmental study, and the
findings then would speak for themselves.
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Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. MARSTON:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. MARSTON:
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you. Down in the rear?
My name is Fred Marston.
Will you spell your last name?
M-A-R-S-T-O-N~ Doctor Marston.
I have been involved in planning for
the last thirty years on the federal, state and
local level and, therefore, I would like to say
that it is absolutely necessary to have a Master
Plan because that's something that without -- it
is a tool without which we cannot live.
However, it has to be a tool that has to enhance
the quality of life in the area in which we want
to help.
I would just only make -- I am not
going into too many details. I have two major
points to make. One, is that your Article VI
is too vague, and I think that's really the
Achilles' heel of the whole plan. It will
destroy completely the waterfront. If that's
what you want, it can remain as it is.
The other thing that I wanted to say,
a decision was recently made by the Federal
Court in New York City against the New York City
Planning Commission that requires an
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environmental impact statement on any changes
that affect anybody or anything that has to do
with zoning, and the whole plan has to do with
zoning changes. The decision by the Federal
Court was not appealed by the New York City
Planning Commission, neither was it advertised
in any of the papers.
I would just only say that here, in
this case, just as a resident of the town, as
a person who is very much interested in your
plan, I would like to say that before any steps
are taken, an environmental impact statement has
to be made and really to go -- because any time
that you proceed with any changes that affect
anybody, it can just only bring to a disaster
the whole plan.
I would like to say that
absolutely necessary for those
the plan is
people who, maybe
don't look at it as a vehicle. Maybe it is not
a model in 1987, but it is a vehicle that we
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. REUTER:
my name is Frederick H.
can start walking with, but it has to be changed
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Thank you. In the front?
Mr. Supervisor, members of the Board,
Reuter. I am a planning
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and zoning consultant. I have a viewpoint I
would like to discuss briefly. One is a questio]
of the Environmental Assessment. Two is a
question of whether or not this is a well-
considered comprehensive plan that the zoning
ordinance is based on; and three is the issue
of the special exception mechanism; then I have
a series of five recommendations.
First of all, with regard to the
Environmental Assessment, I do believe that the
results of that Environmental Assessment
wouldn't be minimizing environmental impacts
which we know too well. They have been
discussed here today, with reference to the
impact, for instance, on the closure of
shellfishing waters and things of that order,
the question of the water supply. In
addressing this, I am focusing largely on the
Resort-Resident and the Marine Business Zone.
I'd like to point out here, among
other things, that those two zones, according to
our survey of those two sites, occupy about
four hundred forty acres in this town, all of
that being on the critical areas that we have
mentioned or that have been mentioned here.
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I think it is, perhaps, a little
understated when the intent of the District,
in terms of the Resort-Residents District, is
to provide resort housing in areas such as the
R-40, R-80 and so on Districts, at a level
consistent with the low density residential
character of those areas.
I think it has already been pointed
out, probably, that those hotel and motel units
are coming in at better than seven units per
acre without sewage and water, and coming in at
better than ten per acre with public sewer and
water. Now, that is not exactly one acre or
two acres by any means.
Likewise, you have the operation of
marinas, conference centers and other uses,
which is a little bit vague in a sense, because
it is not a defined use to start off with.
What is a conference center?
There are other little problems there
with all of this. The impact on the surface
water is one of the things which you indicated
that there would be none of. I think this is
certainly a questionable remark. The third part
of the Environmental Assessment Statement has
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to do with mitigation measures, and it mentions
none of the environmental aspects that have
been so prominent to today's discussions.
Going to the Comprehensive Plan, which
all zoning ordinances are to be based upon,
I think there are some very interesting aspects
to that. I have done a little research on the
uses that are permitted in this ordinance and,
for instance, I have concentrated on the tourist
accommodations. These are hotel, motels, they
are transient and resort,
and breakfast.
comparing them,
differences. For instance, the RR District
provides that such a hotel/motel must have not
only a five acre site, but that the density
would vary with the availability of sewer and
water or nonavailability of it. Beyond that,
there is a concern for noise expressed in that
particular part of the regulation and, also,
both kinds; also bed
As you will find when you start
there are some unique
a concern for lights.
Now, interestingly enough,
get to the Marine Business District,
concern we have is with the large size, five
acre site again, and the second thing, the
when you
the only
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requirement is, according to the text of the
district, that that particular use must have
public sewer and water.
Now, curiously enough, once more, when
you get to the Hamlet District and the Business
District, you find that they refer back to the
Resort-Residents. They don't refer back to the
Marine Business, which is presumably a less
restrictive zone according to all of this.
The point then gets to be what is all
of this coming to? We look over to the bulk
table and we find out that in the Marine Business
District there is a provision for community
water and sewer, and there is a provision for
a density on the hotels and motels at four
thousand square foot for a site which has those
again, contrary to the text of the district --
also, a provision for six thousand without it.
So, there is a confusion not only of public
versus community, but versus just simply water
and sewer, or a confusion in terms of whether
it is or is not permitted without water and
sewer in that particular Marine Business District
Actually, in boiling it down, there
are several other points to be involved here, but
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I have that in the report. When you boil it
down, as far as a well-considered plan here,
there is enough confusion in this zoning
ordinance to indicate it has been patched
several times since its original inception when
Raymond, Parrish, Pine bid it, and as a result,
I think you are going to find that is, in itself
a very inconsistent document in some areas.
Another aspect to that particular
concern is the question of alternative sites
for the marine uses, and I think if you were
to go back to that ordinance, you would find
that in the LIO and in the LI District, you are
permitting boatyards and, also, things that are
permitted in the Marine Business District.
These are upland at that point. I think these
are proper and good considerations.
The point of all that is, very simply,
that you do have a scarce commodity or a scarce
resource in terms of the waterfront. You cannot
just simply locate intensive uses anywhere on
the waterfront to
of the waterfront
be scarce.
start off with and despite all
that you have, it is going to
Now, the problem then gets to be if
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we can move some of the uses that are only
marginally related to water, these are still
marine, but could be in upland areas,
storage, for instance, up into the LI
restaurants
waterfronts,
Now, I might point out here
characteristics of the bay is
valuable piece of real estate
like
or LIO.
There are other uses, such as the
and motels, which are appearing on
which are suitable for marinas.
that one of the
that the most
on the water is
for residential. You might remember hearing
about condominiumization here on the waterfront.
Finally, special exception uses. I
think the point I would like to make there is
you have opened up Pandora's Box in terms of
making everything a special exception use. That
depends not on legislation discrimination, but
it depends upon administrative discrimination,
which your Zoning Board of Appeals can make.
The fact of the matter is that the standards all
not specific
throughout are very, very general,
at all.
Let me say then, I
very precarious position.
My recommendations
think that is a
are, briefly, at
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25
the minimum, the whole business of the tourist
accommodations ought to be reviewed and put
into some kind of order, which I don't believe
you will
closely.
public water,
density.
find it in now if you look at it
That's including the question of
and sewer and the lot sizes and
The second point is, I think you
should restudy the environmental characteristics
of your waterfront. Much of this was done in
the Raymond, Parrish, Pine and Weber study;
but they, also, had two districts. They
realized there was a difference between the
waterfront. I think you should, at this point,
go back and spell out the waterfront as to what
they can actually absorb, and then develop a
system of assigning uses that they can absorb.
Regarding the waterfront district.
It seems to me when you find out you are going
to be able to exercise your legislative
discrimination, and it ought to be three and
possibly four at least districts, so that you
can be more discreet on a legislative level.
Then, at that point, I would take out the
water enhanced uses because it, I think, places
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the biggest demands, and the question of what
kind of economy you're going to have and so on
in the future, depends upon that waterfront bein~
used for boats, not simply for housing people.
helps in terms of getting waterfront
That, also,
access.
The fourth point is that I think the
question of the special exception uses -- those
that are left in the ordinance -- ought to be
more specifically dealt with. That is to say,
there are standards as to how much water space
you need for how much land space and marinas.
You are going to have that for special exception
use, the question of how you are going to deal
with parking.
The question of, in terms of multiple
uses, as to the assignment of space not only on
the land, but on the water for each of those
uses, so you don't have the piggybacking that
you have here. There has to be some sort of
standard as to how you are going to cluster
nonresidential development. The president
of a residential development made quite a big
point of what you are going to count and what
you are not going to count.
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In the case of Marine Business, it
includes a considerable wetlands area that coul(
conceivably be measured for yield, and then you
can say,
the five
would be
"We will have all those motel units on
acres down on the harbor area." That
a disaster, in my opinion, not only
for the wetlands, but also for the community
around it.
Finally, I think the evidence here is
that a generic environmental impact statement
ought to be prepared for this. One of the
reasons is that the ordinance does not include,
at the present, sufficient parameters and we
have, what is called in environmental impact
terms, is called segmenting. You are putting
off for the future what you can do in the way of
reviewing it.
in effect, for
these uses. I
That means you are aborting it,
the accumulative effect of all of
think your burden would be much
easier,
much better if you had this impact
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. In the rear?
to speak in the rear?
MRS.
and your staff people would make out
statement.
Anyone like
Okay, down in front?
WACKER: Ronnie Wacker; Nassau Point.
I am
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speaking for the League of Women Voters. Thank
you for allowing the League to comment.
We recognize and appreciate that you
have put a great deal of thought into
preparation of the Master Plan and we would like
to offer our comments in a spirit of
helpfulness.
As you know, the League has asked the
Town Board for an environmental quality review
of the proposed zoning changes. The Board has
said there is no need for a review because, it
said, there will be no adverse environmental
effects. How can you know this without an
environmental study? The League strongly
recommends a full environmental review be
conducted to determine all the effects of the
proposed zoning changes on the town's residents
and its natural resources which are,
incidentally, the single most significant factor
in the town's economic base.
We believe that the people of
Southold Town have a right to know the impact
of further development on the quality and Town
quantity of their drinking water.
They have a right to know how the
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proposes to assure water for all current
residents as well as those who will come with
further development.
They have a right to know how the
proposed changes will affect their taxes. And,
speaking of money, we have a right to know what
the economic impact will be and other town
services needed for an expanded population.
And we have a right to know the effect
of increased shoreline development on our
recreational waters and our fishing industry.
The new state coastal zone maps show that more
than fifty percent of this town is in the
environmentally fragile coastal town area. What
would be an adequate zoning arrangement for an
inland town up west would sink this fragile end
of the island.
This, in general, is our major beef
of the proposed Master Plan -- the lack of an
environmental impact study. But we do have a
few suggestions about individual items:
We are particularly opposed to hamlet
density zoning in areas that are already
overdeveloped or whose drinking water supply or
surface waters are in jeopardy. We refer
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specifically to the hamlets of Mattituck, New
Suffolk and Orient.
We object to marine business zoning
in those creeks mentioned by the Conservation
Advisory Council. We support the C.A.C.'s
proposal to rewrite the zoning to address the
boating needs of residents, the economic needs
of marina owners as well as the needs for
unpolluted water for recreation and for our
baymen's livelihood.
We should like to ask, also, why no
areas have been designated for parks, bicycle
paths or walking trails? You know, as time
goes by, we will have more signs that say
"No trespassing." Where are people, especially
children, to go if they are constantly
confronted by warnings,
You."
Park.
"Keep Out - This Means
Even paved-over New York City has Central
The State Environmental Quality Review
process can bring all this to the attention of
the public, giving the townspeople a chance to
look at the future of Southold Town
realistically, knowing ahead of time what to
expect. In this way we can truly plan and
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avoid the mistakes of the towns to the west.
The League continues to have faith
in the political process. We sincerely hope
that, as a result of these hearings today,
the Town Board will recognize that in failing
to use the SEQRA process, they will be remiss
in protecting the general welfare of the people
of Southold Town and their own goals as stated
in the Master Plan: "To provide opportunities
for growth compatible with the existing
sensitive environment of the community and its
historic heritage." Fortunately,
still time to change. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. OLIVA:
there is
[APPLAUSE]
Anyone in the rear? Ruth?
Ruth Oliva; President, North Fork
Environmental Council.
The zoning map does not identify
parks, beaches, open space, woodlands or
wetlands; nor have any proposed expansion of
these facilities, or the acquisition of new
properties. Public lands, such as state,
county or town, have not been identified. We
recommend that Article XXII, Natural Features,
be incorporated into the zoning amendments,
such as the one proposed by the Conservation
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Advisory Council.
The goals and objectives of the Master
Plan are at odds with the proposed zoning map.
The obvious inconsistencies are, number one,
the Agricultural Conservation District, as it
is proposed, will not achieve the goals set for
it in the plan. It allows for two acre zoning
and many accessory uses, as in a standard two
acre zone. In fact, it is almost exactly like
the two acre zone.
In order to preserve the quality of
our water, this area is the source of much of
our deep recharge zones. The zoning of this
district must be stringent enough to prevent
those land uses that are known to contaminate
the groundwater.
However, this district makes no
provision whatsoever for either protecting
recharge surface areas from being paved over or
preventing the land uses that will pollute the
groundwater; such as indiscriminate use of
pesticides or fertilizers.
At the least, the Agricultural
Conservation District should aim to preserve tha
greatest amount of prime farmland and recharge
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areas. It can do this by limiting density
to one dwelling unit per twenty-five acres, and
specifying acceptable land use practices that
will not pollute the groundwater.
This approach necessarily requires
some mechanism for the transferring of
development rights. Ail this should be
incorporated into the Master Plan and the
zoning map.
Number two, businesses. One of the
stated goals on the Master Plan was to contain
business development within the designated
hamlets. The idea behind this was to preserve
the open space between the hamlets and,
ultimately, preserve the economic vitality of
the existing business district.
However, the proposed zoning map shows
business zones within residential zones with
such consistency as to contradict the Master
Plan. In effect, the proposed zoning map is,
in many ways, nothing more than a
legitimization of the status quo.
What the zoning map should show is
the land use pattern that would best serve the
community in the future, not what exists now.
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Clearly, if the Master Plan feels that, in the
long run, future business development should be
concentrated in the hamlet areas, then any
business use in existence that is outside the
Hamlet Business District now should remain a
legal nonconforming use.
Hamlet density. As defined, the hamle
density should be in a one-quarter to one-half
mile radius of the hamlets, yet we see hamlet
density all over the map.
Affordable hamlet density should have
enough land to set aside to accommodate the
transfer of development rights forthcoming from
the Agricultural Conservation District.
Hamlet density and affordable density
should be redefined in the summary.
Marine business. You are undoubtedly
aware the town trustees have been working hard
to upgrade the water quality in our creeks. So
far, their efforts have resulted in the
opening of Mill and Mattituck Creeks. These
hard-earned gains may be lost of the Marine
Business District is adopted as defined in the
proposed zoning amendments because the district
allows for water intensive uses in the areas
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that are most fragile and susceptible to
damage, such as saltwater intrusion; such as
pollution of wetlands and creek areas, and
erosion.
The district allows for the location
of potential sources of pollution on the creeks;
for example, gasoline and diesel fuel tanks,
cesspools for restaurants and hotels.
The proposed ordinance does not provid(
means whereby any of the town's review agencies
can mitigate the known environmental hazards of
these uses. For instance, there should be
requirements for fuel spill containment, fuel
tank construction, and location and maintenance;
holding tanks, siting of cesspools.
Furthermore, the zoning map allows
these marine business locations in the most
fragile portions of the creek ecosystems;
namely, in the middle or head of the creeks
rather than the mouths.
The North Fork Environmental Council
believes that the marine business designation
should be allowed, but only at the mouths of
creeks or along the bay, where the inevitable
environmental impacts can at least be mitigated.
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At the least, you are condemning the future
of shellfishing in the town.
The North Fork Environmental Council
strongly recommends that the Town Board declare
a positive declaration of the SEQRA process and
a DEIS be prepared.
We would recommend a special zone
classification be designated for marinas on
our creeks using the proposed Marine-Recreational
Zone submitted by the Conservation Advisory
Council with modifications.
We are not against marinas, per se.
Number five is two acre zoning enough
along our coastline to prevent a break into the
freshwater-saltwater interface, such as the
Norris property?
Mandatory clustering should be
included in subdivision regulations for any
subdivision located near bluffs, beaches or
wetlands. This would have less impact on the
water supplies in those areas. Perhaps, the
open space could be dedicated to the Town for
park or beach access.
Lastly, it is our understanding, at
a meeting of Orient landowners and members of thc
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Town Board, that the same criteria applied to
the New York State Critical Environmental Area
designation would be incorporated into the five
acre zoning in Orient without the actual
designations of a CEA. The Council requests
that this be done.
In conclusion, the North Fork
Environmental urges the Town Board to take all
of our recommendations into consideration. We
especially wish to note that the N.F.E.C.'s
Marine Business recommendations should be
incorporated. As it stands now, the Marine
Business Zoning is a total disaster for
Southold Town.
The time to make changes in the Master
Plan is now, rather than as amendments at some
future date.
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
I was aksed to present petitions from
Mr. Bob Leighton, who says, "I would like to go
on record as being strongly opposed to the
proposed rezoning of the land along James Creek
in Mattituck from Residential to Marine Business.
This is a choice residential area, and further
commercialization would inevitably lead to an
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increase in water pollution, not to mention
depreciation of the scenic values enjoyed by
homeowners, boaters and the people who enjoy
use of the public park located on the creek.
"I have in my possession, and will
present to the Town Board at the next meeting,
three hundred eighty-seven signatures to the
petition requesting that the zoning change not
be made. I heartily join my voice, as a
homeowner on the Creek, to this request. Very
truly yours, Robert A. Leighton."
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Thank you. I would just like to
MRS. RAFFERTY:
say there is an old golfer in Cutchogue, who has
been complaining about the Master Plan, and
seeded golf course was not
He wanted it Par 5.
complaining that the
upzoned from Par 3.
[LAUGHTER]
We will
Island.
Island is part of Southold Town.
you here.
Thank you very much.
sent in two letters, or one from the
see if we can address him.
Mrs. Rafferty here is from Fisher's
Most people don't realize Fisher's
We welcome
I have already
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Conservancy and one a personal letter, but I
just wanted to add my personal comment that why
not consider a separate article in your Master
Plan for islands and areas of unusual
environmental sensitivity?
We, at Fisher's Island, for example,
were put under Class 1 of unusual environmental
sensitivity by the State DEC. There is great
confusion in the new plan and hardship for your
people in trying to assess environmental
problems on the Islands, as well as hardship
for our residents, who could build first and
then ask for permits of the DEC after the fact.
How can you give us time to figure
out how our water aquifer works and how to
inform all our people of the regulations for
wetlands, fisheries, bird habitats and coastal
management? Can you clarify the articles?
My other thought is that I agree with
Jean Tiedke on the confusion on the A-C Section
where the residential zoning comes in. What
protection do we have? For example, if I read
it correctly, you can put three accessory uses
on an R-80 piece of land even if we don't have
a septic tank system and the water system
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available for that.
We are a self-surviving island, and
it makes it very difficult to come over here to
borrow a cup of water.
If it would be helpful to have an
environmental impact statement, Fisher's Island
Conservancy would be in favor of it. Thank you
very much.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
the Board.
MRS. TUTHILL:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. BERKS:
Okay.
In the rear, you may address
Thank you, Mr. Murphy. I am Mary
Tuthill of Cutchogue; president of the Cutchogue-
New Suffolk Historical Council.
Fort Corchaug is located on Downs
Creek and is already on the National Register.
The Council would like to see it saved.
It is the only remaining indian
site of this type on the northeastern seaboard.
Doctor Ralph Solecki has done
extensive work on the fort site, and feels ten
acres should be set aside for its preservation.
Please help us save it. Thank you very much.
Thank you. In the front?
My name is Dorothy Berks. I live in
Orient, and I am representing Mike Connelly.
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The Master Plan for Southold Town has
taken a lot of time and effort by this Board,
and here we are, those of us who can be here
in the middle of winter, to voice our opinions
of a Master Plan, which you must agreed is
flawed.
Does this Board truly believe it
should pass the plan with its present
imperfections, and that those imperfections will
be corrected at a future date?
We're talking about a Master Plan thai
spans three Town Boards, took more than two
years to be contracted for, and four and one-ha[
years to come to this point of incompletion.
A full draft environmental impact
statement should have been prepared before this
hearing was called. This and other problem
areas have been identified by the most responsiw
and responsible segment of your voting
constituency; people who have volunteered much
personal time and concern studying the plan,
which needs work,
attention to these issues.
again today.
It remains for you to respond
and they have called your
They will do so
to those
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matters that need correction before the fact,
and present us with a legally sound document,
which will not jeopardize the healthy growth
of Southold Town.
Before you vote on it, please take
whatever extra time may be necessary to give us
a Master Plan you won't have to apologize for
in the future. In this seaside community, it's
common knowledge that you plug the leaks before
you put the boat into the water.
I'd like to add a postscript to this.
When I started on line here, there were about
three hundred people in the room, and not all
of them have spoken or will speak. I think
there may be a third of that now, but I would
like to request for this afternoon's session and
again for tonight, a show of hands to see how
many people are for the passage of the Master
Plan as it now stands. That includes a rough
count of how many are here.
Is that possible, Frank?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
FLOOR:
MRS. BERKS:
it at a peak time tonight where
We will do it right now.
There ain't enough people here now.
I would ask, more particularly, to do
the count will
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be more significant.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. BERKS:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. BERKS:
COUNCII2ViAN SCHONDEBARE:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. BERKS:
No, we will not count, no.
They are walking out by the dozens.
We are here to get your input.
Are you doing it or am I doing it?
We are not doing it.
No.
Can you do it tonight at the hearing?
I think the show of hands would be significant.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: You can ask for a show of hands right
now while you are speaking.
MRS. BERKS:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
from you,
Plan.
MRS. BERKS:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. STRONG:
I would like to know who in the room
believes that the Master Plan should be passed
as is?
Mrs. Berks, we are here to take input
to hear your comments on the Master
Please, will you give us your input?
That's it.
Thank you very much.
My name is David Strong, and I and my
family have resided in the Town of Mattituck
for over thirty years.
I documented my comments in writing to
the Board on January 22nd, so I would like to
just direct these in general.
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One, I raised my hand to urge the
passage of the Master Plan as proposed with the
necessary changes to correct the inequities. We
have to have some sort of plan to direct the
growth of this town.
As it pertains to the Marine Business
District in particular, I am sure you are all
aware that we are losing marinas. We need more
marinas. They provide an access for jobs to our
community and, perhaps, if we would encourage
them, the people who work in the town could
afford housing instead of chasing them out of
the town.
I think it is time for the Town to
stand up and say either we are for this or we
are not. To change the law again and give
anything less than is being proposed for
Marine Districts, would not be a viable
economic acceptable situation for the marina
owRer.
In today's high land value areas, the
property is worth more as residential. It would
not allow us to carry our overhead. I feel, at
present, there is provision in there to take
care of the controversial restaurant/motel issue
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Also, we are the most permitted group
of businesses on the North Fork today.
Everything we have done has to be permitted.
Everything has to be permitted at least a dozen
times.
I came here this afternoon to say that
I, personally, am a little upset about the
remarks going around that anyone who would have
a marina would be at odds with the environment
and would knowingly despoil that environment.
It would seem to me logic would dictate that
those of us who make a living -- and I have and
all my family all my life -- would be the first
ones who would want to protect and preserve the
environment. We want to do that.
We want to work with the Town. I
think the Town has recognized we need marinas.
It is the cornerstone of our tourism industry.
They need to be controlled and
directed properly, and I think that can be done.
So, I am in favor of its passage as it has been
written.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
mike?
MRS. LASKOWSKI:
Thank you.
Anyone like to speak up at the front
I am Judy Laskowski. I would like
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to address the Board on the zoning change on the
corner of Depot Lane.
America was settled and expanded by
homesteaders, people of foreign lands, to meet
the needs of their families. Our needs are no
longer so basic as survival, but land and
realty still provide the means for meeting them.
On March 23, 1982, the Town Board
voted unanimously to give the corner of Depot
Lane business zoning. On the new Master Plan
the zone has changed to residential or business
by existing use. In other words, it must remain
a health club and professional center. If
business fails, we cannot change our type of
business to recoup our investment. If our
facility burns down, we can only build fifty
percent of what presently exists.
As parents, we planned and invested
for the future of our children, but with no
guarantee that they will live to have a future.
Projected family needs may change.
However, residential zoning and business propert
does not allow for change. They will not give u
the flexibility needed to meet the needs of our
surviving children.
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Not only is the ability to change
the use of the building lost, but the resale
value is lost as well. In either case, the
considerable amount of money invested will never
develop its investment potential because all
options have been taken away.
As protectors of the growth and
development of Southold Town, what have you
gained for the town by taking away our zoning?
Have we not developed the property in a manner
consistent with the architecture and heritage
of the community? Have we not, also, preserved
the house and barn as historical landmarks?
Has the barn, itself, not been donated
to the Cutchogue Historical Society for use as
a small museum?
May I remind you that this property
was not developed by one person. It was not
developed -- the change in zoning does not affect
one person. The property in question was
planned and built to provide for the future of
the family.
We are meeting the needs therefore
providing professional service and a
recreational facility needed in the Town of
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MR. KREN:
Southold.
planning,
Today, after five years of concerted
effort and substantial financial
commitments, the Southold Town Board, which
requires zoning change for initiation of the
project, is now taking the zoning away. In just
a period of five years the potential of our
investment was given and taken away. What was
built for our children's future will no longer
provide for their future with residential zoning
To develop a viable Master Plan is
an important undertaking for the Board of
Southold Town. With all due respect to the
Board and the complexity of the task at hand,
I would ask you to consider this. If the
investment were your own and the family in
question your own, would you be satisfied that
the zoning change would best provide for your
future.
I would then ask that our zoning be
reconsidered and remain business as it presently
exists. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
My name is Peter Kren.
I am here as
President of the Mattituck Chamber of Commerce.
We have a prepared statement here, but I would
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like to read only part of it.
"The members and directors of the
Mattituck Chamber of Commerce believe that
advantages of an approved Master Plan for
Southold Town far outweigh the disadvantages
of the present Town Codes. Therefore, we
strongly urge you to adopt the Master Plan for
Southold Town as now written."
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. In the front?
MR. GOODALE: Members of the Town Board, my name
is Andrew E. Goodale, and I have resided since
1920 at New Suffolk, New York, and am an
attorney with an office in Mattituck. For
several years I was employed in Capital Budget
Project with the City of New York with projected
cost of several million dollars.
I represent only myself and my family.
This is a local law, as you well know,
to amend the Southold Town Code and zoning map;
Recommendations Master Plan Update as prepared
by the Planning Board. While the press
notification only gives the numbers of the
articles, I would like to indulge your patience
and just go over it very briefly with whatever
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comments I have which are my own.
After four years of effort and
seventy thousand dollars, as
press, the prima facie issue
in the recommendations?
A-1.
reported by the
is what is involved
This is referring to
The enactment by the New York State
Legislature is the law that delegates authority
to counties, towns and localities to create
boards to implement state authority, consistent
with the health, safety and welfare of the
electorate. This is all in Town Law 261-267 in
part.
Now, under that mandate, the Town Board
delegates the planning function, but never the
responsibility, that remains with the Supervisor:
At this point, Parkinson's Law to the
effect that bureaucracy tends to expand in
inverse proportion to need, occurs. For example
a question as to need to obtain a building
permit, or to erect a sign, or a fence over six
feet in the rear yard and extending into the
side yard invites surveys, plans, samples,
etcetera, with confrontation between the
community, activists, civic groups, developers
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and the press, among others.
What can be observed from a public
hearing from the usual taxpayer who may avoid
controversial issues. The opposing groups are
enabled to respond on the theory of whose ox
is about to be gored.
The remedies to an aggrieved party are
to join a pressure group, quiet down and shut
up, initiate a Supreme Court 7A proceeding after
an adverse decision.
The update presented at this hearing
consists of thirty articles covering one hundred
nine pages of closely spaced material on all
sections of existing and new zoning with new
matter underlined and deletions bracketed.
Pages 1 through 16 are principally new
items on restrictions and conditions to be met.
Pages 17 to 23 concern additional
restrictions on existing zoning; also includes
bulk area and parking requirements. The
particular application for hamlet density must
conform. The question becomes whether bed and
breakfast residences must also conform, and
requires research or an attorney.
Pages 24 to 34 concern affordable
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housing. The advancement of this program, in
my opinion, creates a legal quagmire and would
need an enlarged staff to review even that which
is intended, let alone what is approved. See
Section 100-55, at Pages 26 through 29.
Pages 35 to 45, Article VII,
Residential (RO) District; Article VIII,
Limited Business District, which rewrites the
zoning code with conditional limitations on
offices and commercial zoning. No comment is
offered since a clearer presentation is
recommended.
Pages 46 to 47, Article XII, Marine
Business District (MB), no comment is offered.
You probably have enough flak generated on
that particular score that can keep you
occupied, shall we say, for several weeks.
Page 48 to 70, Article XII, Light
Industrial Park, Light Industrial District,
XIV; Article XV, Density and Bulk; Parking
Schedules, Article XVIII, Cluster Development;
Article XIX, Parking and Loading Area with
denominated space per specifications for
individual business.
This is something that I
think should
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invite your comment because it has to do with
the bed and breakfast and various other places
that have parking. This is a new and complex
article, particularly Subdivisions B to Q, that
may preclude conformance or enforcement.
It would appear to me that only a
wealthy or corporate developer can afford the
consultant to review the many restrictions
contained in the schedules. Should there be a
conflict of interest in private consultation
while an employee of Southold Town, to be
resolved by application of Articles I to IV of
this present Town Code, which has to do with
ethics?
Pages 71 to 78, Article XX. These
are new amendments and principally relate to
fees on signs, their composition and the many
restrictions or features of elimination.
basic question arises as to the proposal to
The
permit a sign under the health, welfare and
safety of delegated regulations for the communit~
and also lot limits under raising fees as
revenue as a noncriminal regulation is
permissable.
We, of course, know, many people do~
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that a regulation is either criminal or it is
civil. These are fundraising -- rather, these
are revenue-raising propositions that basically
relate to the amount of fees that come in.
The proposition of signs must be
reconciled to the health, safety and welfare of
the electorate. Obviously, this is a result
to limit signs. The picture of what do you want
in the year 2001 appeared on the front page of
the Suffolk Times, November 13, 1986. The
peaceful farm is,
Cutchogue. It is
and nursery shop.
in reality, along Route 25,
a adjacent to a retail flower
A zoning variance is required
Since the whole area of the King Kulle~
Supermarket is under scrutiny for business
purposes, what is the relevance of a picture
of the Riverhead Business Shopping Center signs
on Route 58? Or, for example, the City of New
York is permitting for the payment of fees,
signs that are illuminated on high rise building~
in Times Square as a tourist attraction. In the
subject proposal, the granting of approval is
conditioned by the Planning Board, Board of
Appeals, and the Building Inspector among others.
A violation of this section is purely civil,
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unless it is coupled to a criminal sanction,
which appears unlikely without extensive
research.
Article XXI, Landscaping, Screening
and Buffer Regulations. If humor is injected
at this point, Section 100-214, Paragraphs A to
C, covers everything from nude bathing at home
to the specifications of the kinds of trees
permitted in off-street parking lots. In my
opinion, this is an example of unwarranted
intrusion upon the constitutional rights of
a private person.
Supplementary Regulations. This is
new Article XXIII. When the existing Southold
Code functions effectively and is not broken,
experience tells us don't fix it. But we turn
to the so-called innovative approach in other
towns for a new approach. What is done in
Medford, New Jersey to initiate environmental
and planning regulations with their Master Plan
may or may not be applicable to the North Fork.
What about other supplementary
regulations? The injection of Town Law 280-A
as incorporated from the text in that law, can
have entirely different impact on a code
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regulation. It appears that the redeeming
section of 100-239C Berms, Paragraph C 2-(5) is
that approval granted upon failure of the
Planning Board to act within twenty days.
This is the only redeeming feature
that I can see, that if the Planning Board
doesn't act within twenty days, you have an out
as far as berms are concerned.
Article XXIV, Nonconforming Uses and
Buildings, Section 100-240, the purpose states
a post facto application of all buildings and
uses that become nonconforming by any subsequent
amendment to this chapter pending a thorough
review by competent authority, the matter seems
to rest on a conflict of law.
Article XXV, Site Plan Approval,
Section 100-252, Objectives. "Public health,
safety and welfare, the comfort and convenience
of the public in general, etcetera," raises the
issue as to the comfort and convenience being
within the parameters of health, safety and
welfare as delegating by law to the Southold
Town Board.
Article XXVI, which is new, no comment
at this time.
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Article XII, now Article XXVII,
Board of Appeals; no comment.
Article XIV, now renumbered
Article XXVIII, Administration and Enforcement,
which was formerly 100-144, now 100-284,
Certificate of Occupancy. Any occupancy or
use of a building reconstructured, restored,
structurally altered, etcetera, a seller or
buyer of such structure of necessity needs the
certificate. Complications can result if not
acquired. For example, the plus factors in
affordable housing are to be considered against
the delay of obtaining surveys, testing of
domestic water, meeting building requirements,
parking and a host of others.
It is, therefore, requested that these
comments, which only reflect my views at the
invitation of the Planning Board, be taken from
a public spirited citizen; that same be filed
with the Board for review and consideration by
the Board of Supervisors.
As appointed and elected representatiw
of the people, a great responsibility rests.
It may well be that a referendum by the people
is a solution, or a grandfather clause to permit
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. HOLZAPFEL:
a gradual introduction of a vast and tangled
web of regulation.
Taxes are rising perceptibly.
Revenues are also increasing by the additions
of new housing and business that accrues. To
assess the economics of the situation, will the
North Fork become the bedroom of the metropolita]
communities? I think not.
Will the stable retired families, like
my own, pick up the marbles and go elsewhere?
Who will keep the shop? A rational approach to
comprehensive zoning should help. The world will
not end. Only the grave cures all disabilities.
I think you for your attention.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you. In the rear? Yes?
John Holzapfel. I live in Southold,
and I am a member of the Town Conservation
Advisory Council. I am here to speak for them.
Southold Town Conservation Advisory
Council recommends the inclusion of the Marine
Recreational Zone and the protection of natural
features in the zoning law in order to insure
the economic and environmental health of the
Town of Southold.
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Protection of the tidal wetlands and
other natural features is natural and
reasonable based on economical knowledge backed
by scientific data.
The purpose of the Marine Recreational
Zone is to protect the fragile areas, which is
presently the marinas. These areas should not
be rezoned Marine Business, which allows
commercial uses which are not water-dependent.
A proposed zone change to Marine Business would
encourage the commercial development of highly
ecological sensitive locations.
The Conservation Advisory Council has
vitally altered our original recommendations
submitted to the Town Board in October after
meeting with marina owners.
We have deleted from uses not permitte~
Numbers 1 and 6, which states boat repair
facilities and retail and accessory or equipment
and place these under Section C, uses permitted
by special exception.
Existing marina facilities should be
grandfathered and allowed to continue with their
existing activities, and the rest of the
statement I think you already have, and I am not
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the implementation of
adverse environmental
resources.
going to just read that out. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Franklin Bear?
MR. BEAR: I would like to say, before I read my
statement, that I don't pretend to be a
professional planner, but I have had experience
in the planning field for nine years as a
member of the Nassau County Planning Board,
seven of those years as Chairman. I was on the
Nassau-Suffolk Regional Planning Board at the
time the regional plan was adopted, and I have
been involved in other aspects of planning,
including back in about 1978, I think it was,
putting together the present town plan that
was adopted in 1982, which happened to be in
various segments in the files, but never put
together as one document. That, also, was
adopted at that time.
I have been thinking more about the
proposed Master Plan since the January 22nd
hearing that was postponed because of snow. The
more I think, the more I am concerned about how
this plan would have
impact on our natural
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Foremost among
accelerated pollution of our
and resort hotels and motels,
these would be
creeks if transient
beach, yacht and
boat clubs,
plants are allowed as special exceptions
Marine Business Zones. They would cause
restaurants and fish processing
in
serious
contamination of Hallock's Bay, Mattituck, James
Wickham and Town Creeks, Broadwater Cove and
the pond at Sage Boulevard. Bay waters also
will be affected. In addition, pumpage of
water from the shallowest rims of our sole
source drinking water table, plus contamination,
can be catastrophic. These certainly are
serious environmental problems. This Town Board
should recognize this fact and act now to follow
the SEQRA process required by law.
But that is not the only serious
environmental impact that can result from the
Master Plan as is. Another source could be an
airport. How did provision for an airport as
a permitted special exception get into the LIO
Zone anyway? Hasn't a vast majority of
Southold citizens spoken out against that
airport -- two-thirds according to a North Fork
Environmental Council poll -- even fifteen to
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one against, according to Councilwoman
Cochrane's experience among people she met
before this Board voted to end an airport study
less than a year ago. This should be deleted
at once from the zoning code. [APPLAUSE]
Also, on Page 7 of the proposed zoning
code, I find the definition of a Master Plan
seriously limited. A Master Plan should not be
just "a plan for development." It should
provide for protection and preservation of
sensitive environmental areas, wetlands,
woodlands and open space, many including
sensitive watershed areas. It should also
consider preservation of historic sites, such
as Fort Corchaug in this historic town of ours.
Finally, when I looked at
zoning map, I couldn't believe that
of Corey Creek, which borders the south end of
Laughing Water and ends at the Nunnakoma Waters
the proposed
the branch
boat basin, was not shown.
Also, there are undisturbed wetlands
between that arm of the creek and Little Peconic
Bay, as well as along part of the branch's north
shore. Yet that part of Corey Creek and
abutting wetlands are zoned R-80. It would take
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a lot of fill or stilts to build houses over
the creek and wetlands.
I don't have time to mention all of
the problems which concern many of us, but I
can't help wonder why the plan provides for a
strip zoning where there is an existing non-
conforming use. Strip zoning was a no-no even
in the Master Plan adopted in the early '70's.
It should be a no-no now.
Please, members of this Board, take
the responsibility now to make crucial changes
in the zoning code and map. If you wait until
after you adopt the code and plan as they are,
you will leave the doors open for a spate of
impatient developers to speed the process toward
building creekfront motels and other inappropria-
projects. To act now will help save our rural
atmosphere for generations to come.
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Yes?
MR. WIGGIN:
Do you want to turn your comments in?
I am Merlon Wiggin. My comments are
from myself.
I realize the Town Board has a
difficult task, and these comments are meant to
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be constructive and things that I have
observed that might be helpful from a planning
point of view.
First of all, I realize there seems
to be an omission of the category for parks and
open space. I realize that even Orient Town
Park and Southold Town Beach are zoned
residential. I think we are going to need more
of the open space, and I think it should be
identified as to how we are going to provide
access for people in the future.
Secondly, federal and stated owned
property is not shown. I know we have several
within Southold Town.
I think the plan's purposes, as far as
preservation of open areas, is good, and I think
it was very helpful that the Agricultural-
Conservation District was separated and treated
distinctly from that of the residential, and we
all know you have been very active, and the
County, as far as the Farmland Preservation
Program has been concerned, and yet the areas
that are already in the program are not shown. ,
/
Why not show these, as well as the projected one~
/
as well?
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The stated purposes for our hamlet
density, as we all know, I think perhaps not
enough has been shown on the plan on the
existing hamlets. In some cases, next to
Greenport, for example, 8th and 9th Street,
that area, these are already hamlet density,
and yet they are shown as being R-40.
The next area, for the future water
supply of the town, we need to find out where
this water is going to come from. There have
been visits to the County Health Department and
many plans put on by the County as to where the
recharge areas are. Wouldn't it be wise to
identify sizable -- several acres of area that
could be used for future well development and
develop now the essential areas that have no
nitrates or no tenants?
The second area, with increased
population in Southold Town, there is going to
be a marked increased need for service type of
businesses, electricians, p]umbers, heating
and air
to move
conditioning. There has been a push now
these out off the existing residential
areas to some other area that is categorized
Limited Business. Yet, there is very small
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areas
town.
group
shown for Limited Business around the
Wouldn't it be a good idea to try to
these in a cul-de-sac arrangement, where
US.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. SPOHN:
Board, my name is David
we could have businesses and services to service
the present population, as well as the upcoming
population?
These are just examples of things
I think need to be addressed. I think they are
significant, so that the Town Board should take
another look and revise the plan to include
these areas and make a better plan for all of
Thank you.
Dave?
Mr. Supervisor and members of the Town
Spohn. I did not come
prepared to say anything. However, previous
remarks have prompted me to at least make a
comment.
It is very true there are no airports
shown on the Master Plan -- none. There are
several that currently exist. One is a
commercial airport, which was previously a
That is not, however, my
military airport.
issue.
That issue,
in midstream, while the
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study was in progress, was decided upon
popularity alone as identified this evening.
However, popularity has
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. REEVES:
nothing to do with merit
or need, or the future.
The economic impact is as important
an issue as the environmental impact; for,
perhaps, what is requested is too expensive to
be realistic. So, everyone is requesting an
environmental impact statement. I suggest you
do an economic impact statement to see whether
your plan is affordable. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
In the rear?
Gert Reeves from Orient.
First off,
I don't envy you one
you think you are God, nor do I envy you the
position of some of you. Some of you represent
real estate, some represent lumber yards -- no,
I am not criticizing. I wonder if I could be
in your place and think for others that you
represent or for myself if I were a real estate
man. That scares me.
One other thing. I would like to have
ditto marks for under Ruth Oliva for me. I won't
even go into it.
I look at our Town Board and
bit. I don't think any of
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Another is,
been here for years.
I don't have the rest of my family
me. We have been here since 1636.
what they would say if
some people said I have
I have been here twenty.
to speak for
I don't know
they were here because
they were fishermen and farmers, period,
nothing else. No airports, no marinas. If you
mailed a letter in Orient in early 1800 to
New London, Connecticut, you could get a letter
back the same day. If you don't believe it, I
have it home to show you. It was mailed from
the Orient docks, landed in New London, was
received and answered and sent back by package
boat the same day. We can't do it today.
The other thing is, amongst you, not
many of you here unless they are grandsons, are
firemen or arresting people. My son has just
mortgaged his life to buy a modular home -- some
of you read about it in the paper last week --
put it on a piece of property that is not a
half acre. It is going to cost him over a
hundred thousand dollars before it is finished.
What is affordable housing?
Orient has lost six firemen, six
rescue men in this past year. Where are we
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you going to get them?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. LIEBLEIN:
going to get men to replace them if we can't
have affordable housing? It has got to be
under seventy-five thousand dollars. Where are
You can't afford the
property.
That frightens me because you have got
a big job. Thank you.
Up front?
Bill Lieblein. I live in the Village
of Greenport, operator of a marina. Together
with a couple of other marina owners, I have
gotten together some information and have gotten
a letter for you which I would like to read into
the record.
"With all the discussion taking place
regarding the Marine Business Zone in the Town
of Southold's Master Plan, we in the marine
industry feel it is important to point out some
facts related to our industry.
"We polled the members of our industry
and received twenty-five replies. In addition,
there are at least another twenty-five businesse
that derive at least seventy-five percent of
their gross income from the boating public.
"The twenty-five marinas who responded
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have an annual gross income
million dollars,
million dollars,
employees and pay property taxes
three hundred thousand dollars.
in excess of forty
payrolls in excess of four
have over three hundred
in excess of
Using a
multiplier of 1.5, a conservative figure supplie~
by Cornell University, to show the following
on dollars spent in the local community, a
minimum of sixty million dollars is being spent
in the local economy.
"There is a big demand for more public
access to the water from local residents, as
well as those outside our town who come here as
tourists. Besides a limited number of public
beaches and ramps, the only other access to the
water is through privately owned marinas and
ramps. This makes the marina one of the
cornerstones of our tourist industry.
"To purchase, develop and maintain
a marina in today's climate of high land cost
requires that the owners of marinas be allowed
to develop their properties to their full
potential. Any uses less than those which are
presently proposed in the Marine Business Zone
would make it impossible for most of our
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existing marinas, and all of any proposed
marinas, to carry their overhead.
"The demand for waterfront property
by developers of condos and homes has a great
deal to do with the rapid rise in waterfront
values. Thus, just as this demand by developers
has made our farms an endangered species, so,
too, are our marinas and other water-dependent
businesses; however, when we lose these water-
related businesses to residential development,
we are also losing our already limited access
to the water.
"Marine businesses should be encouraged
and not discouraged for many reasons. They
provide expanding career opportunities for
local residents. They give Southold an expandin<
tax base without having to resort to the
fruitless pursuit of heavy industry. They allow
growth to take place under the easily controlled
environment of the public or private marina.
They provide the access to the water, which is
the reason the majority of Southold residents
moved to this town in the first place. They
provide the services and facilities demanded
by those who live, visit or summer in the town.
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"The owners
depend on the lure of
environment to ensure
of marine businesses
a clean waterfront
their survival. They
have the most to gain by preserving that
environment and therefore they should have a
major input on decisions affecting this
environment.
"To sum up, Southold Town has a
unique opportunity. We have an industry that
provides tax income, jobs and access to our
public waters. Logic says marine businesses
should be expanded so°that all the taxpayers
of the Town of Southold and visitors may
benefit."
You can change it to "I" if that's
how it should be for submission of this
document.
I would like to add to that, in a
little bit different area, after listening to
the last person who spoke, that I would like to
reinforce any statements that have been made in
the direction of affordable housing. At the
present time, I have several employees who
cannot find housing in the township, commuting
in from as far away as Patchogue and Riverhead,
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Board?
MRS. BAILEY:
and places of that nature. So, I would urge
the Board to do anything you can to continue
to work for affordable housing. Thank you.
Anyone else like to address the Town
Pat Bailey, Cutchogue.
I would just like to add, I understand
some of the properties south of 25 would be
one acre zoning. Is that correct?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: There are all different categories,
some one acre, some two acre.
MRS. BAILEY:
acre.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. BODENSTEIN:
Peconic.
I wonder if mine could be considered
for one acre zoning. It is on a very small lot,
six acres. It is very difficult to get rid of
two acre lots. It is easier to get rid of one
I would even consider one and a half acre.
Thank you. Yes, ma'am?
I am June Bodenstein. I live in
I would like to make a couple of
brief comments.
On these condominiums, before we give
permits for hundreds of them, I have been given
to understand that half of the ones that have
been sold have been sold strictly on
speculation. Speculators are buying them up.
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They are not being
that's true or not,
hate to think of us just
investors.
One more thing.
are not going to carry all
occupied. Now, whether
I don't know, but I would
as a plaything for
Our east-west roads
this traffic if
provision isn't made now to widen them or build
more because if we are going to have double the
population we have now, think about those roads.
I would like to remind Mr. Spohn that
in a democracy, the majority rules, and I think
the majority does not want the airport.
[APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone like to address the Board? Why
don't you line up on the side?
Please, anyone who would like to
address the Board, please move up to the mike.
MRS. GEBHART: My name is Julia Gebhart. I would
like to say a few words in favor of the marinas.
I have lived in Greenport most of my
life. My family moved here from Montauk, where
my dad was a commercial fisherman. We were a
boating family, and I still enjoy boating.
Each year I see how much harder it is
for boating people to find a slip in which to
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keep their boats. In fact, I have a friend
right now who has bought a home in Greenport,
and the closest place that she can find for
her boat is South Jamesport.
from Greenport.
Now, without it, boating, we lose a
part of our lifestyle out here. Boating people
are clean; they do not clutter the highways,
and demand more and more asphalt parking lots.
I have three of them around me right now in
what used to be a beautiful residential section.
They, I think, are the ideal people
to encourage to come here. They bring a lot of
business and leave a lot of money in Southold
Town and, God knows, we can use it. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else like to address the Town
Board? Please? Anyone else who would like to,
please go to the mikes. Thank you.
My name is Abigail Wickham of
Cutchogue.
I would like to first commend the
Town Board, the Planning Board, and also all
the people that worked so hard on this. The
nature of this hearing is not to tell you what
MS. WICKHAM:
That's quite a run
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a good job you did, but to point out problems,
and I have three.
The first is on behalf of myself, as
a resident of this town and not representing
any client, and that has to do with what I think
is a very dangerous provision that you have put
in the code in connection with the Residential
Office Zone. I think a Residential Office Zone
is a great idea. It provides a buffer between
some business and residential areas. It also
helps alleviate some problems of residential
areas along, for instance, the Main Road, or
other heavily traveled areas, and it allows
those areas to obtain some relief through the
use of offices and other uses which are
unobtrusive and don't counteract the residential
flavor of those areas.
Then, scattered in among these
unobtrusive uses, you have restaurants, and I
don't know why you have a restaurant in a
Residential Office Zone. I think that it can
cause as much harm as almost any use can in
terms of noise, odors, overflowing traffic,
lights, garbage, etcetera, and I would like to
strongly ask that you reconsider that.
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The second item that I would like to
point out is on behalf of myself, as an attorne~
who does a lot of work in this town on zoning
matters, I do not agree with the Board's decisio]
not to have gone through with a full SEQRA
process in this code. I am sure it had been
mentioned before today. If you do adopt the
code, I think it leaves us wide open to a
challenge in court.
Developers out here are becoming
increasingly more sophisticated and more litigou
I would hate to see all this time and effort
reduced on an unfavorable decision in court on
that basis that the impact on the environment
was not considered properly the first time the
developer does not like what you are telling
him he can or cannot do with the zoning.
The third has to do with a point on
behalf of a client of mine, whose name is
Herbert Mandel, the owner of a C-1 zoned
property on Rocky Point Road in East Marion,
which contains, and has contained for years and
years, a garage. It is a repair shop and an
auto body shop. It has a number of uses all
related to that type of industry over the years,
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and you propose to change it from the current
C-1 zoning to a R-40 zone.
He would suffer considerable financial
burden if that were the case. He would be
relegated to a nonconforming use, which I don't
think is good planning in terms of zoning.
The area in which it is located would
not be adversely affected by the change, and
I would like that to be reconsidered.
In sum, I would ask, because of these
point, that you not adopt this particular
code, but that you quickly do what you have to
do to, perhaps, incorporate those suggestions
and readvertise so that all the time and effort
is not lost because, overall, I think there is
no question the code does need an upgrading.
I do not know if William Wickham, who
lives at 115 Old Harbor Road in New Suffolk
was here earlier, but I do have a letter that
is going to be added to the paperwork. I have
a letter incorporating my comments.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
clerk?
Is
to address the Town Board?
Would you please give them to the
there anyone else who would like
We have five minutes
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and then we are going to recess until tonight,
and we will reopen at seven o'clock.
There being no one else to speak,
thank you for coming out. We appreciate these
comments.
[WHEREUPON THIS HEARING WAS RECESSED AT 4:55 P.M,
AND WAS RESUMED AT 7:00 P.M.]
o0o
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[WHEREUPON THE EVENING SESSION WAS CALLED
TO ORDER BY THE SUPERVISOR, FRANCIS J. MURPHY,
AT 7:00 P.M.]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: It's seven o'clock. I would like to
reconvene our public hearing. The official
notices have been read previously.
I would like to announce that any
correspondence turned in will be given, or has
been given to the Town Board. Anything handed
in tonight will be given to the Town Board, and
so, what we are doing, we are going to ask
people on the right here to start the forum from
the front to the back, and speak on this mike
on my right, and the people on the left side go
on from the back down to the front to line up
on the mike in the rear.
This is a public hearing, I'd like to
remind you. It is not a question and answer
period. The Town Board is here to listen to
your comments on the proposed Master Plan. We
just want to know what your comments are.
The time where we have had discussions
on this are all gone. This is four and a half
years in the works now that many people have
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MS. LARSON:
been working on it.
want to hear your comments
of the zoning code and the
So, at this time,
those in the front here on
So, this is the time we
on our final draft
zoning map.
I would like to ask
the right to start to
line up at the mike to address us. I would like
to ask anyone who addressed the Town Board this
afternoon to please hold off until, if we have
time at the end, to address the Town Board
again. This is comments to the Town Board.
They are being recorded by a stenographer over
here, and the minutes -- all your comments are
given to the TOwn Board, so that it is not
necessary to speak again tonight.
So, at this time, I would like to ask
anyone over here on the right, please, who would
like to address %he Town Board, to please start
lining up here from the front row to the back,
and then please have some people go to the mike
in the rear, and we are going to jump from the
front to the rear.
Now, I have to have your name and if
you have a prepared statement, if you will turn
it in, that's for anyone. Okay, Ellen?
Ellen Larson; Southold Town Trustee.
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I am responding with regard to the
proposed rezoning in the creek.
As most of you should know, tidal
wetlands are the most productive acreage on
earth and the most productive acreage in terms
of estimated value; they are estimated at thirty
dollars an acre in terms of productivity. I
feel they are the most endangered acreage in the
town as far as the proposed MB zoning. Not only
will it affect the habitat, but the system as
a whole. Estimates show that sixty percent of
our total fish catch depends upon these marshes.
The economic, social and ecological
value of these creeks has been documented
federally, state and locally. State, federal
and local approval for any project that would
adversely impact our wetlands' viability would
be unlikely.
Owners of wetland properties frequentl5
seek their development. Legislative history
indicates that the intent is to protect the
marsh and its water quality. Builders and
marine contractors often chafe at the
and mitigative measures.
History indicates, however,
regulation~
that it is
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the intent of every government to protect the
marsh and its water quality.
I do not feel the impacts of the MB
zoning was thoroughly examined in its relation
to a Master Plan. To exploit the intertidal
marsh without consideration of the ecological
cost of this resource or the results of this
trade-off is, in my opinion, an unrealistic
approach for long term planning to Southold
Town.
The controversy between marina owners
and marina users and conservationists is a long-
standing battle, in part because the marsh and
marina like similar conditions, protection from
waves and strong currents. However, marinas
thrive in deep water, marshes don't.
I would just like to point out some
of the information that is available to me on
the results of marina development inside of an
intertidal marsh area.
If you compare a natural marsh to a
marina, the amount of suspended organic particle
matter -- that means the amount of food that is
available for any fish to feed on -- is similar
in volume in both areas. However, the chemical
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composition and nutritional values are much
lower in marina areas.
Fecal coliform counts dramatically
increase in marina areas, and are as much as
forty times higher in a marina area.
There is an oxygen demand loading due
to road runoff and increased sedimentation.
Bioassay levels from boat exhausts
show growth inhibition in some species beginning
at concentrations of five percent, with
definite toxicity of most species.
Dissolved organic content increases
copper and tin levels found in seeweeds, snails
and shellfish that has found its way into the
food chain.
Everyone has agreed that the salt
marsh nurtures aquatic life by sending plant
nutrients into the coastal waters. Therefore,
marsh development could be compatible if the
grass fringe is left and maintained, or
destroyed wetlands were replanted; but that's
wrong. They are finding now that the diversity
of the species found in marshes decreased as
they were developed.
The number of fish are similar, but
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there is an increase in sport fish, such as
bluefish, in developed marshes, and what happens
is that we have allowed development in the past,
thinking that it was environmentally compatible
and maintained a marsh fringe with bulkhead and
fill to high marsh, but small fish like flounder
weakfish or shrimp, they come in a flood tide
and settle on the high marsh. On the ebb, they
are protected by the grasses where they grow.
With the bulkhead, the smaller fish
have no place to go. That's why the predator
fish are eating the small fish.
I don't question at all the need for
increase in marina space within the Town of
Southold, but I would ask the Town Board to
carefully consider the location of any type of
marina business expansion.
We are running around right now,
people, grabbing at clean waters act, looking
for money to clean up toxic waste. The
handwriting is on the wall. We have a chance
to protect Southold. Please look at our future
in the long run for all of us. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Ellen. Forgive me for not
introducing the members here. On my right is
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MR. WOOD:
Councilman Schondebare, Town Attorney Tasker
and Councilman Penny, Planner Dave Emilita and
Councilwoman Cochrane on my left. Also, Judge
Ray Edwards from Fisher's Island and Councilman
Paul Stoutenburgh.
We will continue and go to the rear
mike.
I am John Wood. I live on Old Jewel
Lane in close proximity to the proposed Norris
Development.
I am not aware that the Planning Board
ever made an environmental study on the impact
of this increased density on the water supply
of the surrounding homes.
Myself, I live between the Norris
property and the saltwater.
Now, I think before the Town Board
makes a decision on this,
doing a rational process,
and
it should be made
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
we all assume you are
that you have a study
public to all of us.
In the front? I might
ask that you please start to line up at the
microphone so that we could continue on and
hear everyone's comments.
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Alice Hussie?
Alice Hussie. I respectfully suggest
that the many, many special exceptions in the
zoning code be written into the permitted uses
paragraph of the code sections.
In many cases, the number of special
exceptions in the code are greater than the
number of permitted uses. For example,
Article X, which takes care of General Business,
lists ten permitted uses and then identifies
fourteen uses by special exception.
Article XIII, Light Industrial, gives
five permitted uses and thirteen uses by special
exception.
Since uses by special exception are
already itemized, would it not be quicker, less
expensive both in time and money and all around
red tape, for the Town and everyone involved to
make these decisions now and write them into the
code as permitted uses? Itemizing the special
exceptions as you have, strongly implies that if
one goes through the steps required for special
exception, such exception will be granted.
Also, I notice that a large section of
Main Road in Southold between Oaklawn Avenue and
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MR. TOWNSEND:
Ackerly Pond Road has been designated
Residential/Office. That's great. But the
rationale that determined that use was not
applied in Cutchogue and Mattituck.
If the reasoning was to connect
isolated business zones, then that reasoning
should apply in Cutchogue to connect the area
between Griffen Street and Alvah's Lane, and
Depot Lane and Eugene's Road. Parts of
Mattituck also appear to have spot residential
zoning because the nonresidential zones are not
connected.
The areas I have noted should have the
same zoning for the same logical reasons you
have rezoned Main Road in Southold. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Alice.
I would like to move back to the
rear microphone and introduce former councilman,
Joe Townsend. Joe, myself and Ray Edwards were
the only three people who were around when this
whole Master Plan was started.
Thank you. I am speaking on behalf
of the Board of Trustees of Eastern Long Island
Hospital.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Please speak into
the microphone. We
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MR. TOWNSEND:
Page 128
can't hear you.
Joe Townsend, speaking on behalf of
the Board of Trustees of the Eastern Long Island
Hospital.
On Thursday, February 8, 1987, the
Board of Trustees of the Eastern Long Island
Hospital resolved to state for the record of
this hearing that we are overwhelmingly in
favor of expanding the provisions for affordable
housing in the proposed Southold Town Master
Plan.
With two hundred sixty-five employees,
Eastern Long Island Hospital is the largest
private employer in the Town of Southold. This
number does not include the many physicians who
practice medicine or surgery at this
institution. We, therefore, realize it is in
our best interest to promote planning that
responds to the housing needs of every segment
of our community, and especially to those who
are or might be our employees.
Over the last few years, more and more
of the members of our staff have been unable to
buy or build housing in Southold. Consequently,
they have been forced to commute from Islip,
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Brookhaven or Riverhead Townships in order to
work at Eastern Long Island Hospital. This is
a trend that is growing, and it is one that
alarms us. We think that this trend is neither
helpful to the hospital in particular, nor to
the community as a whole.
A related problem has been created
by the fact that some of our vital services are
performed by volunteers. These volunteers are
the young men and women who serve as firefighter:
and emergency medical technicians. Any plan
that creates unnecessary or additional hardships
for young families who would like to continue
to reside in this area, has a negative impact
on the health, welfare and safety of all our
residents.
We, therefore, urge the Southold Town
Board to develop a plan in which housing can be
affordable to people of varying incomes and age
groups. In this way, the total health and safet,
needs of the community can be served at the
highest level of excellence. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Would you
have one, too? Would you turn it
Joe, do you have a written statement?
like to turn it in, and Alice, do you
in to the
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clerk over here; and again, I would ask anyone
who has a prepared statement, to turn it in to
make the recordkeeping much easier.
Please start the lineup at the
microphone. If anyone would like to address the
Town Board, in the rear?
I am Bruce Isaacs from Cutchogue, and
I would just like to say that, in my opinion,
it seems to be plainly obvious that we really
need to do an environmental impact statement on
the Master Plan; and I know that after four and
a half years of working on the plan, that
everyone was looking forward to completion and
hoping that it would be completed. Everyone
hopes that it will get done.
It will get done because it is so
important, and it will decide the future of
Southold Town irreversibly, so that we really
need to put that extra effort in and go that
extra mile, and if we need to spend a little
extra money to really do the plan right and make
it really work and not be shabby.
It just seems to me this is one of the
most important issues that the Town Board will
ever have to decide on and, therefore, you
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7
really should put that extra effort. It deserves
that extra effort, and the people of Southold
deserve the extra effort that we need to do,
late date, after all these years.
even at this
Thank you.
Trustee.
Albert Crosby, Junior; Southold Town
I would like to discuss the Marine
Business District. As we know, as has been
stated, the productivity in our bays has been
declining. Being a Town Trustee, I am also
aware of the problem of boat space in town,
that there is a need for increased boat space.
More and more people move out here,
and it is an affluent community, and people have
boats and they want access to the water.
Of course, it is up to the Trustees
to provide adequate public access, but at the
same time, we have got to provide protection
for the creek which, of course, to protect the
creek, then you are protecting the whole
nursery for the finfish and shellfish, and I
am not even speaking on a commercial basis; I
am speaking as just a resident going out and
fishing and clamming or scalloping.
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I'd like the Town Board to take a
look at the Marine Business District because
while you have an obligation, or the Town has an
obligation to provide access to the water, there
is no obligation to provide access to hotels,
or condominiums, or high density housing or any
activities that would further deteriorate the
productivity of our creeks and wetlands.
I hope this is given serious
consideration. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Again, please come
MR. ONUFRAK:
to the
mike if you would like to speak. In the rear?
Good evening, Mr. Supervisor, members
of the Town Board, members of the Southold
Community. My name is Joseph Onufrak. I have
a home in Mattituck, very near the proposed
Carr Development site, and I am an attorney. I
appear on behalf of CANDO. That is the committe~
of homeowners and civic and residential
associations opposed to %he continued downzoning
of the former Norris Estates.
Before I make my presentation as a
spokesman for CANDO, I would like to introduce
Professor Rene Eastin, a professor at Sou%hampto
College, a consultant to a number of authorities
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such as the Town of Southampton. Professor
Eastin is a professor at Southampton, who
teaches a course of hydrology.
PROFESSOR EASTIN:
about
Thank you for your indulgence on this.
Thank you. I would like to speak
zoning, population density and water
resource management, using the proposed building
of condominiums on the Norris Estate as an
example.
That area east of James Creek and
south of Marratooka Lake, has had problems with
salt water intrusion into wells in the past, and
still is in the midst of changing groundwater
conditions with several wells suffering salt
water intrusion.
The proposed ninety-five dwelling
units on twenty-seven acres can only adversely
affect the groundwater reservoir there and
promote further salt water intrusion.
In general, the situation is this.
There is only a limited amount of fresh
groundwater available. It is derived from and
depends on the amount of rain and snow that
falls each year. The capacity of the groundwate]
reservoir depends on the land area's width,
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Page 134
from shore to shore and on the ground elevation,
the thickness of the possible reservoir.
The North Fork is one of the smallest
groundwater reservoirs on Long Island. This is
well pointed out in the report by Holzmacher,
McLendon & Murrell in 1970, Comprehensive Public
Water Supply Study, Suffolk County, CPWS-24,
Volume II, Pages 276-277:
"On the North Fork are found the
lowest groundwater levels for any large area
in Suffolk County. In addition, the ratio of
tidal coastline to total land area is much highe]
than the ratio for the County as a whole. This
pinpoints the North Fork as being one of the
areas in Suffolk County most susceptible to
salt water intrusion."
The narrow land area and the low
elevation of the land above sea level mean that
there is little fresh groundwater rising above
sea level and floating like cream or a pool of
oil on top of a denser liquid, in this case,
salt water. If fresh groundwater is pumped out
and lost by evaporation or by runoff into the
sea, then the amount of groundwater is less,
the pool of floating fresh groundwater is
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groundwater,
place.
smaller, and salt water takes its place in the
pores of the sediment, rising from below or
moving in horizontally from the shoreline. This
effect is especially noticeable near shorelines
in low-lying areas, as in the southern part
of the Hamlet of Mattituck.
As iD most of the East End, homes tend
to cluster near the shore, using groundwater
where it is already naturally least abundant,
in the thin edge of the pool of fresh groundwate~
In this area, large tidal variations and storm
surges of salt water push the fresh groundwater
back, and thin it out as the greater elevation
of hydraulic head of sea water overcomes the
balancing pressure of the fresh groundwater.
The more wells there are, the more dwelling
units per acre, the more groundwater is pumped
and lost to the reservoir by evaporation and
surface runoff. This decreases the elevation,
the total thickness and the area of the fresh
and allows salt water to take its
Even if septic tanks are used -- sewer~
are worse -- so that some water is put back into
the ground, a certain percentage, about thirty
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percent of that pumped in the first place in
residential areas of Eastern Suffolk, is lost
in this way, and not available to other wells
or to keep back the salt water. Watering lawns
on a hot day is not an efficient use of
groundwater. One hundred percent of such
irrigation water is lost by evaporation. A
sewage treatment plant is certainly better for
the quality of the waste water than the septic
tanks, but even if it recharges its output into
the ground, there is still evaporation and runof
loss.
Dec~easing the number of wells per
acre, the amount of pumpage from the groundwater
reservoir, can be done by upzoning. Southampton
Town has been a leader in this aspect of its
Master Plan.
Other measures to conserve groundwater
include clustering to minimize the area of paved
developed surfaces, including lawns. Such
surfaces do not allow rain and snow to naturally
recharge the groundwater by vertical
infiltration as undisturbed pine forest does.
Paved and developed areas also
increase surface runoff into the bays and promote
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evaporation, both processes lose fresh water
that would otherwise flow down into the soil to
add to groundwater.
Upzoning and clustering are prudent
measures to conserve a limited natural resource
for the requirements of future generations.
Maintaining the quality of groundwater is
another subject. I'll not get into that here.
Faced with a limited groundwater
resource, town planning boards must manage
growth and use of that resource. Even though
their term in office is short in terms of the
history of Long Island, they have a
responsibility to plan for future years and
their children's needs. Unlike crops and trees,
groundwater is a very slow to change resource.
Once polluted, it will remain polluted for tens
of years, generations, because it flows so
slowly. Once depleted, drawn down and replaced
by salt water, it will take tens of years,
generations, to be recharged, to recover. In
the meantime, drastic, costly measures might be
necessary; desalination of seawater, rain
catch basins and storage tanks for houses, deep
recharge injection wells, water supply systems
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that use sewers to collect wastewater so it can
be treated, cleaned up and then put back into
the pipes to supply users recycled wastewater.
Now is the time when we, in the
eastern part of Suffolk County, must carefully
evaluate proposals for development and use of
this limited resource, groundwater. I feel that
this proposal of ninety-five dwelling units for
the twenty-seven acres of the Norris Estates is
an impact on the area's groundwater that can onl'
exaggerate the present situation of salt water
intrusion. The present zone of HD should be
changed to the previous 2A zoning.
Attached is a list of wells adjacent
to this area that show how rapidly in the past
few years the fresh groundwater is being
overpumped. Use is in excees of the natural
recharge to the area,
increasing.
Well
so that salt intrusion is
Here are a few examples. Poscillico's.
installed in 1981. The south end of Camp
Mineola Road. It went salty in 1985. The
screen had to be pulled up into the shallower
part of the fresh groundwater.
The Daneri and Best. Those homes
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along the shore just west of Camp Mineola Road.
Their wells went salty in 1985, and had to be
moved to a location two hundred fifty feet
north along the road.
Hughes and Scheidel, homes along Old
Jule Lane, went salty in 1969 due to a severe
winter storm surge, but recovered soon after.
But after a 1984 March storm, they went salty
and have not recovered. They remained with
over two hundred fifty parts per million
chloride, beyond the limits.
A test well, the Strong House, just
west of Camp Mineola Road, finished up in 1982,
showed that the material, at that time, was at
less than fifty parts per million, a perfectly
acceptable level of chloride. It tested, in
1986, at two hundred parts per million chloride.
The Strong well was fine in 1985. In
six months it turned salty.
Higgins. A test well showed high
chloride at thirty foot depth. Located between
Number
Norris
1966 to a depth of ninety-six
1 and Number 2 on Camp Mineola Road.
A farm irrigation supply well on the
Estate, west of Kraus Road, installed in
feet, went salty
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and has been pulled up
to pull it out of the salt water
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
to sixty-two foot depth
intrusion.
ONUFRAK:
Will you please turn your paper in,
Doctor? Thank you.
I am Joseph Onufrak. I have a home
in Mattituck, very near the proposed Carr
development site. I am an attorney, appearing
on behalf of CANDO, the committee of homeowners
and civic and residential associations opposed
to the continued downzoning of the former
Norris Estates.
CANDO appears again before the Board
to press the Board to recognize the
inconsistency between the purposes of the
Comprehensive Plan which is the subject of the
hearings this afternoon and this evening and
the zoning of the Norris-Carr site under the
proposed plan as Hamlet Density (HD), under
which condominium development is permissable.
The essential argument of CANDO is that this
spot zoning doesn't work under the Master Plan.
My statement is in part a narrative.
I chose to tell, for some of you once again,
what has happened in the zoning history of this
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twenty-seven acre property. The
recovers much that is central to
understanding of the Committee's
against this dramatic example of
narrative
an
struggle
spot zoning.
Nearly
Norris sought and obtained a
zoning of his property, more
fourteen years ago, Bruce
change in the
than seventy-two
acres of horse farm. The change in zoning, in
essence, afforded the opportunity to develop
portions of the land with multiple dwelling
units. The zoning change stirred enormous
controversy in the community, and the question
of Southold Township's right to amend the
zoning in Norris' favor went to litigation.
One year later, the trial court
upheld the right of the Town to change the
zoning. Norris did not move forward with his
project, however, and in fact, it is fair to
say he abandoned the plan for more than a dozen
years.
The community, of course, did not
abandon change. In the ensuing dozen years,
the peninsula's population grew dramatically.
To be specific, within just two blocks of the
Norris site, more than a dozen new homes have
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been built. Even as we meet, the Planning
Board is reviewing development plans for seven
new homes to be built on 15.3 acres just
twenty-five feet from Carr's property.
Peninsula-wide development has been just as
dramatic in the same period.
But this development has exacted a
price, and change has brought problems. The
peninsula is narrow, bounded by James and Deep
Hole Creeks on the sides, Lake Marratooka
above, and the bay a few blocks to the south.
The Carr site is extremely close to
a major marina. There is but one major
thoroughfare to Main Road: New Suffolk Avenue.
The Town has forced that road to support the
communities of East and West Camp Mineola, Old
Jule and Lake Marratooka, all of Strong's
marina traffic and the largest part of traffic
from the New Suffolk area. Traffic is always
brisk, and the road's capacity is clearly
exhausted. The community is alarmed at the
harrowing adventures which await any who try
to enter Main Road at the Tolendal Inn. In
summer, the road is a nightmare. It is in this
area, however, that the Master Plan would
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tolerate a ninety-five unit community, where
seventy-five percent are three bedroom homes,
directly on New Suffolk Avenue.
Mr. Carr has, through his attorneys,
attempted to deal with the problem. He has
recently offered preliminary traffic studies
to this Board and the Planning Board, essentiall'
designed to enlighten us and pacify our
concerns. The report can only astonish:
It shows cross-intersections where
none exist; it reflects numbers counted on
meters which, as some distinguished members of
this community would be prepared to testify
under oath, were disconnected or broken, or
did not measure traffic on New Suffolk Avenue
in both directions; it cynically never measures
traffic turning onto Old Jule Road or onto
Reeve Avenue, although such heavy traffic
necessarily affects the traffic flow of the
community around the Carr site.
Finally, the preliminary study seems
to suggest that the community and this Board
believe that Carr's August 1986 study shows
less traffic than a November 1973 study prepared
for Norris.
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Is there anyone in this room who will
believe that?
In summary, we suspect that the final
report will insult common sense and the
expertise of one's own eyes in surveying the
traffic flow in the area.
The last twelve years have also made
the community wiser about water problems. We
have seen an alarming loss of private wells to
salt water intrusion. In some cases, wells
have gone bad within six months. Nor is it
only wells along the shoreline; neighbors
report inland losses regularly, and the numbers
mount.
This peninsula isn't the same one
Mr. Norris sought to develop fourteen years ago.
Under the old lenient zoning code, the density
increased, compounding the ancient high density
which characterized the shore community to the
south. The power of the sea has had random
triumphs over people's wells throughout the
peninsula, and shows no signs of yielding in
the future. Yet, the co~nunity has salvaged
a quiet and charm which justifies its
inhabitants' continued pleasure in the quality
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of life there.
Hamlet Density zoning, which is in the
Master Plan, threatens that quality. This
Board's planning consultants, Raymond Parrish,
recognized this truth and recommended that the
Norris-Carr site be zoned R-80; that is,
two acre. In preparation of the Comprehensive
Plan, they looked at the site, the aesthetic
quality of the neighborhood, water supplies
in the area, sewage disposal problems, traffic
gluts, and they recommended change. Yet, the
Board ignored that recommendation, and so we
ask again, why? Who so ordered the change in
the proposed Comprehensive Plan from the R-80
recommendation to HD? Who can benefit from
the change? Can the Board truly believe that
ninety-five units, which could hold as many as
three hundred or even four hundred persons,
belongs on twenty-seven acres?
zoning?
Is that sound
Did the Board receive one scintilla
of evidence to challenge the recommendation of
the planning experts paid to advise the Board,
rationally and disinterestedly? Did the Board
have a single piece of scientific evidence to
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challenge the professional planners on the Town
Board who opposed the HD classification? If
Hamlet Density zoning was so critical to this
area, why did the Board zone the 15.3 acre site
adjacent to Carr two acre, and not allow
Mr. Appel, its owner, to so maximize the use of
his land?
Who benefits? Only the developer,
under the threat of a lawsuit, and the
investors who will buy these condo units and
exploit them as the South Fork's land has been
exploited.
The favorable zoning afforded the late
Mr. Norris was never utilized. It is now
outmoded. To continue it in the face of the
community's existing problems is irrational
and arbitrary. If the Board insists that the
County Water Authority will solve the water
problems on Carr's site, as Carr's lawyers'
correspondence slyly argues, say so, and let
this town community decide if public water
authority will be the new assumption for site
development planning.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Please, Joe.
MR. ONUFRAK: I will wrap it up.
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If the Board believes Carr's project
is justified in hauling water from sites north
of Main Road and placing a crushing environmental
mortgage
burdened,
for the future on the site so
say so. If the Board believes housing
well
is "affordable
classification,
in excess of two hundred thousand dollars
housing" under the HD
say so.
But if you cannot do these things,
then recognize the petitions of hundreds in
this township. Drop the HD spot zone as
irrational and counterproductive to the health,
the safety and the welfare of your constituents.
Your planners, independent and in-house, have
pointed the way. We implore you to follow
their direction.
Ail of you, with us, are residents.
The people of Southold owe no apologies for
cherishing the beauty around us and the quality
of life here. But don't we owe it to ourselves,
our families and our children to preserve it?
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
My name is
begin what I have to
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. LOWRY:
Tom Lowry. I just want to
say by saying that twenty
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years ago, my wife and I came out here and
bought our house in East Suffolk as our second
home. We couldn't use the water then, and we
can't use the water now. ~e live at Jackson
and Second, and three years ago, when our
house -- shortly after our house burned -- there
was a great big nor'easter. About ten days
after, our water, which was piped into a
replacement trailer which was on our driveway,
began to bubble and effervesce with sewer gas.
New Suffolk is a fragile place. I
have sixty-five signatures that I got in about
four hours of going up and down First Street,
Second Street and Third Street. I did meet a
few other folks. We are immensely concerned
about the Hamlet Business zoning proposed on
King Street between Second Street and Third
Street where John's Market was.
I have a map here with the area
crosshatched.
It seems to me any zoning such as
Hamlet Business that allows trains and bus
stations, laundromats, theaters, retail
establishments of all sorts, is not the kind of
zoning that we need in New Suffolk with our
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fragile ecological situation.
So, I am not really here for myself.
I am here for sixty-five anguished members of
the New Suffolk Community, who feel as though
they are being steamrollered and they don't
like it.
In connection with all this,
sincerely second what Bruce Isaacs had to say
about the DEIS. A DEIS is really needed for the
Master Plan. The Master Plan is, per se, going
to affect the environment, and if we don't have
a DEIS prior to the adoption of the new Master
Plan, we and everyone else in Southold are being
shortchanged.
I want to conclude my pitch with a
story I heard this afternoon at the post office
in New Suffolk from a neighbor of mine who owns
Marge Tuthill's old house at the mouth of
Schoolhouse Creek.
He said ten years ago he got the house~
There was shrimp in Schoolhouse Creek. He says
there are no more shrimp there and he thinks he
knows why. And I think I know why, too; the
pressure which those of us who don't care enough
for the environmental are bringing to bear on it
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. RUROEDE:
Thank you.
Thank you. In the rear mike?
My name is West Ruroede; Bayshore
Road, Greenport.
While studying marine engineering at
the Merchant Marine Academy on the rocky coast
of Maine, I became an avid scuba diver. I am
one of those rugged souls that gets his jollies
swimming year round in the murky and turbid
depths of our local waters.
I ask you all to explore and enjoy
those public lands beneath our town waters.
I am here to report that all is far
from abundant and undisturbed from my vantage
point below the waves.
Perhaps, it was an omen when the idea
of desalinating salt water into fresh potable
water was proven economically feasible at
the project conducted at Clark's Beach on the
Sound in Greenport during winters of '84 and
'85.
I hereby volunteer my diving services
to the Town in order to defray the vast expense
of a professional diver, and especially to
evaluate the damage we have allowed by the slack
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enforcement of the past and present.
The proposed environmental impact
studies will take time to submit. I propose
that you, the Board, find the backbone to match
that display by the Town of Brookhaven, and pass
a six month building moratorium now so that we
can study the problems before us and vote on it
when all possible are present this coming summer
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: John?
MR. WICKHAM: is John Wickham of Cutchogue
Thank you.
My name
and New Suffolk.
Two of the recent speakers have spoken
more clearly than I wish to on the problems, but
I would like to bring to the attention of some
of you sitting before us that when two acre
zoning was first discussed, I made the comment
that I would support it because there was an
emergency, but I felt it was not fair to
agriculture, and that there should be some
trade-offs.
There has been a trade-off, and that
is Southold Town's program of the purchase of
development rights; but unfortunately, it hasn't
kept up with the increase in the price of land,
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and I know I have personal friends among the
farmers who have turned -- who offered their
land, but turned down the project because the
appraisals were simply not high enough. They
were just unrealistic. They were based on three
or four years ago values.
under these circumstances, if the Town
is not prepared to make trade-offs for
agriculture, there is no excuse for staying with
two acre zoning because the County, the County
Board of Health, the County Planning Board,
Bi-County Planning Commission, our own studies,
have all shown that there is enough rainfall
to provide one residence per acre, and there is
just no question about it. We know that, and if
you are saying farmers must have two acres per
residence, you are shortchanging them.
If you go to four acres, that makes
it four times as bad and it simply isn't fair.
Now, to get down to a particular point,
my own farm. We own, in the family -- because
I am old enough to have divested myself of a
great deal of property that I owned to other
members of the family -- but we own, in the
family, approximately half of the land area in
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the school district of New Suffolk, not counting
Robin's Island. That land we have dyked to
keep the salt water off, to protect New Suffolk
Lane and for agriculture, but we have done it at
our own expense. We are the only people, and I
am the only individual who has followed the
recommendations of our planning consultants of
twenty years ago; namely, protecting the lowland
at the heads of these creeks from salt water
flooding, and this enlarges the catchment area,
as you have heard, and although we do have
problems in New Suffolk near the bay between
First and Second Street, particularly, they had
problems twenty years ago and they are nothing
new; but New Suffolk has expanded in total
population. There have been some recommendation~
to the Town Board that there should be one acre
zoning along the bay.
My family holds approximately two
thousand acres -- two thousand feet of undevelop~
frontage on Peconic Bay between the Village of
New Suffolk and Boatman's Harbor, Fleet's Neck.
In light of all that we have done to protect
the water resources, the whole face of this
peninsula, New Suffolk, it is unreasonable to
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. FLETCHER:
require us to have two acre zoning.
It is not necessary; it doesn't make
sense from the Town's point of view because the
taxes on residences on one acre would bring more
money to the Town than residences on two acres;
but finally, to propose business development in
New Suffolk is simply unthinkable. It is at
our expense, and it is adding insult to injury.
I think it is just unthinkable, and I would
strongly object.
Thank you.
Thank you, Jack. In the rear?
My name is Linda Fletcher, and I
represent, as president, the New Suffolk Civic
Association.
There are several serious concerns
which we wish to address concerning the Southold
Town Master Plan, the zoning amendments and its
acceptance as policy.
The first of these problems is the
proposed combination of Marine Business and
Marine Recreation known as Article XII in the
zoning amendments. As written, it would set the
stage for the devastation of the environmentally
sensitive areas, which are our creeks.
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The creeks of the North Fork are one
of the most distinctive attractions and the
foundations of much marine life. To subject
them to the potential dangers of overdevelopment
for commercial profit is very shortsighted.
We urge you to insert Marine
Recreation and Marine Business as two separate
zones and to adopt the Conservation Advisory
Council's proposed Article XI designated
Marine-Recreational into the zoning amendments.
It is your duty, as well as ours, to protect
our creeks for future use and enjoyment.
Secondly, it has recently come to our
attention that all of New Suffolk is in the
coastal zone; thus, New Suffolk is an extremely
sensitive area,
clearly address
process.
Town of
and all land use planning should
the very significant fact.
Finally, the question of the SEQRA
It is difficult to believe that the
Southold, which, in the majority of
cases, is declared to be the lead agency and
requires others to submit a draft environmental
impact statement, would exclude its own plan
from such a critical process. What kind of an
example does this set for others wishing to use
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land and waters in our town?
It is our opinion that this thorough
examination is in the best interests of Southold
Town and all those who reside here. We will
have to live with this plan for a long time.
had better be the best that it can be.
Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE]
Thank you. Would you like to submit
Give it to the clerk. Thank
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
your statement?
MR. MC GOWAN:
It
yOU ·
My name is John McGowan; also from
New Suffolk. We do have a tendency to speak at
these public hearings.
I would like to speak about the Hamlet
Business zoning proposed in the Master Plan
along Second Street and going up almost into
Third Street. At the present time, New Suffolk
has a very limited business area consisting
of a former marina area which supports a
restaurant and full general store; and on First
Street, a fishing station, a bar-restaurant and
a gift shop boutique. The gift shop and boutique
has changed hands a number of times over recent
years. Any business in that spot has seemed to
have had difficulties just plain surviving.
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There would appear to be no need for
additional commercialization in the Hamlet of
New Suffolk. Therefore, to me it makes no sense
whatever to zone land along Second Street, or
anywhere for that matter, west of First Street
for commercial use, whether you call it Hamlet
Business or any other form of commercial use.
It just doesn't add up.
I would like to make two general
comments on the Master Plan as it now stands.
One is that we should seek to restrict even
further than the plan does waterfront
development; particularly, along the creeks,
whether it is in marina zones or otherwise
because the creeks are vital to our survival
of our town and as a series of communities; and
Paragraph Two, the plan should be concentrating
more on the existing hamlet business areas to
avoid the strip zoning so common in other parts
of Long Island, which
deterioration.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
leads to a tremendous
Thank you very much.
Thank you, John. In the rear?
Again, I would ask anyone who would
like to address the Board to please come to the
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1
2 MR. GRIME:
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microphone.
My name is Donald Grime. I bought a
piece of property in Cutchogue on the landfill.
It was zoned C-l, General Industry, and you
people have proposed a change to LI. At C-i,
any lawful business was allowed, and there was
forty-three others allowed by special exception.
LI has it down to five permitted uses and
thirteen by special exception. The reason for
the change in the proposal was so that you
people could watch if there was any contaminatio:
of the surface and groundwater.
Now, if anyone in that area is going
to be contaminating the water, I think it would
be the landfill, not me and my business.
After I bought the piece of property,
the Suffolk County Department of Health sent me
eleven pages of covenants and restrictions on the
piece of property, which far oversees anything
you people have written.
Now, I don't understand why you did
away with this. I bought the piece just last
year. You made me buy five acres knowing it
was C-l, and now you have changed it.
I have been to all the hamlet meetings,
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and I have asked that it be left C-i, and you
people haven't. So, I just ask if you can look
at it again and do what you can because I am
just starting out. I had to borrow a lot of
money to buy it, and if my business doesn't work
and I have to sell it, the decrease in the value
of the property is very great, and I would never
be able to pay off the loan which I had to take
to buy the piece. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
mike?
Thank you. Anyone else in the front
Anyone, please come up who would like
MR. SPANOS:
to address the Board. Please come up to the
mikes. In the rear?
My name is Nick Spanos. I have been
a resident in Southold Town most of my life.
My father, George Spanos, owns a service
station in Greenport. The service station has
been operating as a service station for more
than seventy years.
I realize that the task of making a
Master Plan to satisfy everyone would be
impossible. I don't understand why, on the
Master Plan, there are parcels of vacant land
that aren't being used for anything that has
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
been zoned General Business or Marine Business,
and the property my father has on Main Street
in Greenport is zoned Residential.
Here is a letter that my father would
like to submit to you.
"I am the owner of a gas station on
the corner of Main Street and Champlin Place
in Greenport.
"My property has been used as a
service station and repair shop for over seventy
years. Since the old zoning code was adopted
in 1971, the property has been zoned as non-
conforming business use. Now that the zoning
has been reevaluated, I would like you to
consider zoning my property as General Business
District. The Master Plan has recognized many
non-conforming properties
according to their use.
for my property.
"Thank you for listening to my plea,
and I submit to you this letter and survey for
your review."
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Spanos. Do you want
to bring the letter up to the clerk?
and has rezoned them
I ask you to do the sam
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MR. FEILER:
Please,
address the Board,
the front,
also.
I am Don Feiler,
if anyone would like to
please come to the mike in
In the rear?
and I am representing
the Ole Jule Lane Civic Association.
I wish I could say we are in favor
of this Master Plan, but there's a few problems
that we hope can be resolved, since this is
the starting point, to control land use and plan
for proper growth.
We have something very special here
in Southold. It's the quality of life that has
so much compared to any other area on Long
Island. Preserving that can only be done with
carefully planned zoning; and that's not just
this map -- it's an informed and concerned
public; a responsive and responsible government.
The Zoning Board, Planning Board and Town Board
must understand these responsibilities, and
be responsive to their constituency, to carry
out the spirit of that Master Plan.
Specifically, though, if you were to
look at Mattituck on the map, you might think,
"What's wrong with this picture?" What's wrong
is the zoning of the Cart/Norris property on
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New Suffolk Avenue. That allows multi-family
housing at one unit per quarter acre in an area
zoned for single family housing on two acres.
Do you have to be a professional planner to see
what's wrong with this picture?
It seems that it helps, since all of
the professional planners involved with this
Master Plan, including the planning consultants
who prepared the Master Plan, the Southold
Planning Board and the Suffolk County Planning
Commission, all recommended two acre zoning for
this site.
When you were shoving the Suffolk
County Water Authority down our throats, you
thought enough of Doctor Lee Koppelman, the
master planner, himself, to bring him here to
discuss the land use process. Now you should
finally listen to what his Suffolk County
Planning Commission, in 1973, recommended to
the Town Board, disapproval of the Norris
downzoning for the following reasons:
One. While consideration of the
clustering concept on the entire landholdings
of the petitioner is welcomed, no attempt should
be made to downzone portions thereof to allow
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an increased density to effectuate such a
land development pattern.
Two. An increase in density would
tend to adversely affect the limited underground
fresh water supply on the North Fork and
establish a precedent for the continuance of
such a practice.
Three. It is inconsistent with the
low density single family residence pattern of
zoning in the locale.
Four. It would tend to establish a
precedent for further downzoning in the locale,
especially along New Suffolk Avenue.
Five. It is inconsistent with the
Town Master Plan, which designates this area for
low density single family residence development.
The site plan now being reviewed by
the Town Planning Board proposes ninety-five
condominium units on just twenty-seven acres.
The adjoining property owner is now developing
his fifteen acres with a cluster plan and a
yield of seven lots. The same cluster calculati¢
would permit eleven lots on Mr. Carr's property.
To be consistent with the neighborhood
ninety-five housing units should be permitted
n
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on no less than one hundred ninety acres.
Now, we are not a bunch of nay-sayers
who want to deny Mr.
his land. Two acre
and proper use here,
Carr the right to use
zoning is the only orderly
and this property will
remain very valuable and marketable at two
acre zoning. Mr. Cart will still make an
enormous profit on his investment. He won't
have to trade in his Rolls Royce for a Toyota.
We all remember the demolition of the
Hartranft House, where another greedy
carpetbagger wouldn't be satisfied with just a
profit from the sale of this house and land, but
had to go for the maximum profit without regard
to his neighbors and the feelings of the
community.
We are not a bunch of NIMBY's either --
not in my backyard. We are concerned with our
whole Town of Southold, its problems and its
future.
When the Hartranft House was torn
down eight miles away from our neighborhood,
we were upset.
Riverhead and Greenport are quickly
being overdeveloped, and that concerns us, too,
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not only the ripple effect it sends toward us,
but they are all part of our place.
Mr. Penny, you've put a lot into the
affordable housing issue, and we appreciate
that. But don't stop with housing. You said,
"We're guaranteeing the future of people in
the moderate income range." Don't forget that
we are those people and we need your help now
to protect our rights and guarantee our future.
The New York Court of Appeals defines
spot zoning as singling out a small parcel of
land for a use totally different than that of
the surrounding area for the benefit of the owneI
of such property, and the detriment of the
owners of the surrounding property. Spot zoning
is the exact opposite of good planned zoning.
A lot of us feel that our town is
a pretty good place right now. Not perfect --
things could be a little better -- but they can
get a lot worse. Maybe there isn't one project
that can change this place much, but they can
quickly add up. Just go to Westhampton Beach
or Hampton Bays or any place southside on a
summer weekend, and think about what it was
like ten or fifteen years ago. There are a lot
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of natives on the south side who now admire
the North Fork because it still resembles the
East End they once knew.
Improper development can change this
place for the worse, and that's a mistake that
can only be made once, with a change that will
be forever.
In short,
Board, to show us
the future of all
a select few.
I thank you,
are listening to us.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
it's up to you, the Town
that you really care about
of us in Southold, and not
MR. CUDDY:
and I hope that you
[APPLAUSE]
Again, I would ask that
anyone who wants to, please come up to the mikes.
Thank you.
Mr. Supervisor and members of the
Town Board, my name is Charles Cuddy. I am from
Mattituck. I, fortunately or unfortunately,
also live very close to the Norris property.
I would like to reserve some time to
speak about that later because I am waiting to
hear someone speak on behalf of the Norris-Cart
downzoning. I don't imagine that's going to
happen, but I would still like to see it happen
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because I think the Board should be aware of
just how many people there are that oppose it.
I appear initially, though, on behalf
of two clients, and as the Board knows, or I
believe you know, they own the property that's
at the northwest corner of Westphalia Avenue and
Main Road in Mattituck.
Occasionally, and I go back to
Mr. Spanos who spoke just once removed a minute
ago about his gas station -- occasionally, I
think the Board makes a mistake. I think you
have made a mistake if you look at the zoning
for the Bergen Oil property. You zoned one half
of it business, you have zoned the other half
R-40 Residential. That's where they park the
trucks, that's where they have the fuel oil
business. They have been there thirty years.
I think in recognition of that fact
alone, that the Board should review the map and
make that area, as a minimum, a business zone.
I speak further on behalf of people
from Cutchogue, Joseph and Julie Rojusky. You
have a zone that was changed five years ago to
business. The Rojuskys relied upon that zoning.
They built a building, significant building,
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put a lot of money into it and a lot of effort
into it. You now propose the same type of
zoning I just spoke about, R-40, although five
years ago the Town Board unanimously declared
that that was to be business zoned.
I have looked at your entire map
all the way from Mattituck to Orient Point. In
every hamlet, Mattituck, Peconic, Southold,
outside of Greenport right on through to Orient
Point on Main Road or
Business properties.
one or two acres.
the North Road there are
That is one or two units,
The only hamlet that is not done in
that way is Cutchogue. I am sure it was an
oversight on your part. I think the "B"
designation for their property belongs there,
and I ask if you will look at it, I am sure you
will agree.
I ask
that you change
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
JUDGE EDk[ARDS:
for both Bergen and Rujosky
the zone. Thank you.
Anyone that would like to
address the Board, please come up.
Judge Edwards from Fishers Island. I
am reading a letter from the Fishers Island
Conservancy, Inc., addressed to members of the
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Town Board of the Town of Southold, Supervisor
of the Town of Southold, Frank Murphy and to
all concerned parties.
"The Board of Directors of the Fishers
Island Conservancy wish to express their concern
for the relative lack of environmental safeguard~
in the new proposed Southold Master Plan zoning
ordinances, maps and definitions, especially as
they affect Fishers Island.
"It should be noted that we have no
desire to impact, adversely affect or stultify
any Fishers Island business or enterprise that
currently exists. Indeed, prosperity for these
enterprises is essential for the Island's
general economy and well-being. However, we
also feel that on Fishers Island, so different
from the mainland of Southold in so many ways,
some additional effort needs to be made to bette~
balance both ecological and economic concerns,
particularly in the economic and residential
areas of Fishers Island that are of unusual
environmental significance or sensitivity.
"We trust that the Town Board can be
both understanding and appreciative of our
concerns for the environment of one of the last
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remaining relatively undeveloped barrier
islands on the North Atlantic Coast. We stand
ready to be of help in any way we can, and hope
that in lieu of our presence at the public
hearing on February llth, this letter may be
read into the official record of such hearing.
"For the Board of Directors, John H.
Thatcher, Junior, President."
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Ed. Would you give it to
the clerk, please?
Jeanne, is this the same statement?
MRS. MARRINER:
No. I am Jeanne Marriner, and as you
know, I wear several hats, president of the
League of Women Voters, I am a member of the
Conservation Advisory Council, and I am also
a long time marketing consultant to the boating
industry, and in this last capacity I have
something to bring to the attention of the Board
from the latest Boating Industry Magazine, the
latest current data available on recreational
boating in the last year.
First, let me also say that I live
across the creek from Strong's Marina, and I
appreciate the way that Dave, Dottie and Jeff
Strong conduct their marina business. We are
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also one of their customers. They haul our
boats and repair our engines and so forth, so
I certainly have no reason to oppose marinas,
per se.
However, with regard to Marine
Business zoning, I would like to say that marina~
are not really what anyone is opposing. What
we are opposing is the inclusion of nonwater
related uses, such as restaurants, motels,
etcetera, in the Marine zoning, and this,
really, is the way the Conservation Advisory
Council feels, the League feels, and I just want
to set this straight.
I have a pie chart that will show
you where marinas' income is derived from.
Approximately forty percent comes from fuel,
berths and other miscellaneous, about forty
percent from repairs and service. About
another ten percent comes from equipment, new
trailers, etcetera. About ten percent comes
from hardware, accessories, gifts and clothing.
There is no mention of restaurants,
hotels, etcetera and so forth, and that is
what the boating industry considers Marine
Business, and I would just like to put this
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into the record.
If I may just be brief, we did not
have this ready to give you when Ronnie spoke
for the League, and it is just a very brief
statement. I would just like to call to mind
the League's long involvement with Southold
Town's Master Plan, an involvement based on
years of study and research based on land use
planning, and we persisted because we believe
in citizen participation in the political
process.
In 1970, the League urged town
officials to be farsighted in land use planning
so that our economy and resources would be
insured for the future.
In 1982, in the public interest, the
League sponsored a survey of Southold Town
residents' needs and presented the results to
town officials to serve as a guide in updating
the Master Plan.
In 1983, a member of the League served
on the Citizens Advisory Committee for the town
plan update and made many recommendations.
in 1984, to assist town officials, the
League, in conjunction with the NFEC, held
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informational meetings in the hamlets on the
proposed plan and gathered information for
revisions to the plan.
In January of 1986, the League
commended the Town on the goals of the Master
Plan and offered suggestions as to how the
zoning amendments could better advance its goals.
In the spring and summer of 1986, we
petitioned the Town Board to rescind their
decision to turn the Town's water supply over
to the Suffolk County Water Authority because
it was not in keeping with the goals of the
Master Plan, nor in the best interest of the
residents of Southold Town.
Last October, we urged the Town Board
to go through the SEQRA process to determine
if the proposed zoning insured the public
health, safety and welfare, and the goals of
the Master Plan.
All of our valid suggestions and
petitions, made in the public interest, were
ignored.
Tonight, we again urge you to
reconsider your decision to ignore the SEQRA
process. We have a list of suggestions that may
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MR. GLOVER:
be helpful to you. We hope you will at least
read these and call on us.
Tonight, we also want to go on record
in support of the NFEC, and to publicly announce
that the League's Board of Directors has voted
to support any further action they may take on
behalf of the residents of Southold Town. We
believe the needs and wishes of the residents
have been ignored too long.
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
I am Leander Glover from Cox's Lane,
Cutchogue, and while you are working on the
proposed Master Plan, I come in to request that
you include my buildings on Cox Lane as
Business. They have been nonforming for a good
many years. They are on the Suffolk County Tax
Map Number 97-5-2.1 and 97-5-2.2.
The family goes back as far as 1656.
I don't go back as far as 1640.
I have been in the snowplowing busines~
since 1947 and the trucking and contracting
business since 1949, and all these businesses
are nonconforming, and the adjoining properties
are zoned "B."
Now, that's why I wanted to request
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that this be changed over to make it
conforming for the future generations
can stay there and remain in business.
you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Yes, ma'am?
MRS. SKABRY:
so they
Thank
My name is Margaret Skabry. I have
been to all the hamlet meetings, and I started
to come to the first informational meeting you
had when the goals were said to be to preserve
the agricultural and rural nature of this area
while planning for the future growth.
It seems to me there have been some
problems with that. We are told that the time
for asking questions is over, but I haven't
been able to get an answer in two years to a
few of them, and I have been down to Town Hall
quite often, as each one of the Board members
knows, and I even spoke to Mr. Emilita about
one, whether or not we are going to end up with
the Soundview Avenue extension through my
neighbor's home. She is a little too timid to
ask, so I am asking for her.
Also, along the shoreline on the Sound
there is two acre zoning -- hello, George -- and
the two acre zoning -- hello, George -- the two
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acre zoning along the shoreline is backed up
by ten acre zoning agricultural.
Now, I don't understand how the people
are going to get to the two acre zone along
the shore when there is no Soundview Avenue
extension, and we can't get an answer as to
whether or not we are going to have an extension
put through our road.
Still no answer. Okay.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Margaret, again, this is not for
MRS. SKABRY:
questions. Thank you.
The comment is we still don't have
an answer.
The other thing we don't have an answe/
to is why, after two years of fighting to kill
an airport and having to battle to make our
Town Board members realize that this Town does
not want an airport, now why has it been moved
a couple of feet down the highway and another
new area has been zoned with exception?
Now, you have to go before the Zoning
Board for an exception. You can have an
airport -- a Stage 2 airport again -- and we
are told that what we say is important, that
you want to hear it, that you want to know what
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we want. If you want to know what we want,
this is a statement; but then I would like to
ask questions.
You have a very strange way of showing
interest because you are not doing any
environmental impact things on anything. You
are not giving us answers on anything, and the
hamlet meeting we went to in Mattituck was a
disgrace. These Deople didn't even know they
were having a meeting. There were what, fifteen
twenty people there? It was a disgrace what
you did to those people. They had no chance to
let you know how upset they were about what was
going on in that part of town. You were told
about it; you did nothing about it.
Spot zoning. I believe what was said
tonight by one of the men against the Norris
project. We have a little spot up on the
highway here. You can see down to Bridge Lane.
It was a gas station that was zoned
many years. We knew it was coming.
and it is really there, very well noticed. The
only problem is now there are a few other little
business zones that are being put in right next
to it. The two homes next to it are now being
that way for
It's there
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put in a business property.
Talk is to the west of it is going to
be condos right along the tracks.
We still don't have answers. That's
the comment. We don't have answers as to why
this is happening when we are told that strip
zoning and spot zoning is not something that
was a goal for this plan.
Also, your hamlet density is to be
kept, supposedly, around hamlet areas. Well,
that's fine. Unless you really don't want to
push for your Suffolk County Water District in
here, as certain members seem to want, you are
going to have problems because I am in a hamlet.
I am on an acre. In back of me is open acreage.
It could be hamlet density.
My well went dry already. Now, in
order for Suffolk County Water District to get
me water, they are going to have to get it from
some other piece of property out here. If you
want clean water for the people in back of us,
they are going to have to get it from somewhere,
too. Who are they going to get it from that is
in this town already?
You are not solving any problems. You
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are building more. You are not doing a thing
for affordable houses because you can't promise
that those houses in hamlet density are going
to be affordable.
Also, why isn't there hamlet density
down by Kenny's Beach? There is a beautiful
pond. Why aren't they there? Why are people
being kept in the small town areas? Why aren't
they being given the chance that every one of us
supposedly had when we came here? Why are you
putting the business down the highway in front
Why is there a Resort Residential
of the farms?
area now?
There have been problems on the inlet
for a year. Now you have a jetty there. On the
other side, you go ahead and put up a resort.
What kind of resort?
that.
We can't get answers to
I am not allowed to ask questions, but
the problem is when I read all the possibilities
that you could have for Resort Residential on
that block, I still don't know what you can have
You can have anything. You can have a Hilton
on the Long Island Sound, too.
I don't know -- two family shacks --
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MR.
BRAND:
you know, with a pool. Besides a marina, you
can have anything. We don't know what it is,
and I have never been able to find out who owns
that property even, and that will have an
impact, but you won't have an impact statement.
My feeling is you really aren't being
fair to the people of this Town by putting
through a Master Plan that has so many holes in
it that ih looks like a colander, and you really
have to give yourself a chance to do impact
statements, and you know it. You all live here.
Thank you.
My name is Tony Brand. I am a
nurseryman from Huntington.
Last year I bought some land, farmland
in Cutchogue. Of course, at that time, that
farmland was already zoned two acre, and still
I went ahead and bought it, but I think the Town
has made a mistake.
You look here to the west -- as I
said, I am from Huntington, and the mistake in
Huntington was, before they started with the one
acre, if everything in Huntington was one acre
residential, it would be a beautiful town. It
is the oldest, small, sixty by one hundred or
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whatever, half an acre, third of an acre, that
makes some of what's in Suffolk the way it is.
If you had one acre before two acre,
you would never be like Western Suffolk already.
Yet, you went to two acre.
Now, I can't understand why the farmer
should be the one to provide this watershed,
if you will, to the rest of the Town. You are
looking at jamming people in this hamlet area
and down by the water, and the farmer should be
two acre? I don't understand.
I don't see any justification for that,
and I would hope that this Town Board and
Planning Board would rethink some of the
decisions they have already made.
That's basically all I have to say.
I hope to move out here someday. You are doing
a good job of keeping this town the way all of
Long Island used to be, if you ask me, from
what I know and from what I could remember.
I think you went too far with two
acre. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Again, please come up
MR.
to the mikes in
PONTINO: I am Joseph Pontino,
the front here. In the rear?
and I have an
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interest in a parcel, and I want to know why
the hell it should be zoned two acres when we
have been surrounded with quarter acre lots for
the last hundred years. Everyone has lived
there quite happily ever since.
NOW, I would like to give my kids a
building lot, each one. I can't afford two
acres. So, what's wrong with a quarter acre and
let these carpetbaggers think about it?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Thank you. Anyone else like to
address the Town Board? Please come up to the
mike. Anyone else that would like to address
the Town Board, please come up and use the front
mike, also.
MR. MAHON: My name is Russell E. Mahon. I live
in Southold.
came
My comment is a general one. When we
to the two acre zoning several years ago,
I thought it was a good thing and I still think
it is a good thing. We do have open space. We
don't have as much as we had, and we still have
a lot of open space. So, when you look at the
new maps, the Master Plan maps, and you see a
lot of agriculture and conservation two acre,
and the various R-40 -- I don't remember all the
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numbers --
one acre categories which also leaves us a
amount of open space, which I
considerable
is great.
but there are two or three different
think
I only heard one
evening from one lady, Mrs.
something about the exceptions, and her
remarks apparently were addressed to the light
industry area exceptions and the business area
exceptions.
Well, I addressed the same situation
in the agricultural conservation two acre and
the various one acre zoning. In each category,
there are numerous exceptions. Now, there may
be a good reason for the exceptions.
I would like to see all, or some of
these exceptions eliminated because we have a
viable Master Plan that, presumably, has
provided for various types of business in
various areas. Why do we need many possible
exceptions in one and two acre zoned areas
designed to be kept as open space? And if
a lot of these exceptions were used, well, we
wouldn't have as much open space.
One of the exceptions in the two acre
comment in the whole
Hussie, who said
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zoning is a labor camp. Well, I won't go into
all the details.
The point is we have a good plan. We
don't need all the exceptions, and if we use
a lot of the exceptions in the open space areas,
two acre and one acre, then we won't have so
much open space. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MRS. SMITH:
Ron,
Thank you.
Ann Smith.
Yes, ma'am?
I represent my husband,
and myself. We live at 1530 Camp Mineola
Road, which is directly across from Mr. Carr's
proposed development, and we are very concerned
about the possibility of the condominiums going
up in our front yard.
The plans indicate that the entrancewa'
would be directly in front of our property, and
if the road develops, we would lose approximatel~
twelve and a half feet across the front of our
property, which would diminish our two acre
zoning.
We are concerned about the
transportation, the water and all the things tha
the people have already spoken about.
I guess the statement is that the
people speaking with their reports and all the
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them for all the work and
have put in. [APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
information have gotten out to the community,
and we are community people~ and we support the
people who are representing us, and we thank
all the
time that they
Anyone like to address
the Town Board?
MR. GRIME: My name is Donald Grime. I would like
to do something a lady did this afternoon, but
there was not enough people here for it.
Will you raise your hands if you are
against the Master Plan?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Donald, we asked not to have a
demonstration here, please.
MR. GRIME: This is just to show you who is for
it and who is not for it.
We are here for comments of people.
the Town Board ruled. Thank you.
Charles Cuddy. I reserved some time
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
Please,
MR. CUDDY:
for myself previously. I was waiting to
if there was anyone for the Norris-Carr
downzoning. I haven't found anyone, and
expect to find anyone.
You know, thirteen years
time that this has been going on,
see
I don't
WOODBURy ROAD HUNTiNGTONNY 11743
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and I would
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think even the Board, as well as some members
of the audience, are probably getting a little
tired of it. I am a little tired of it, too,
because I thought at some point in time the
Board would respond to the neighborhood and to
the community, and I am talking about a
significant part of the community.
I have heard a number of arguments,
and none of them persuasive against what has
been going on as far as the CANDO Committee, and
by against I mean arguments saying that they
are just old people that are against it. I
think, tonight, I may be the old guy in the
crowd. They are young people that are against
it.
I have heard a number of people say
that it really isn't quarter acre zoning, that
it is a zoning that could be spread over the
entire parcel. That's a specious argument.
hope it won't be an argument adopted by any
members of the Board.
That zoning is bad planning. It's
bad because of traffic congestion; it's bad
because of water; it's bad because it is
contrary to the neighborhood.
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Ik is hard to believe that this Board
will sit back and not respond to the community,
and I wondered why that's so, and it appears to
me that maybe there is an error that's being
made on the part of the Board.
I don't think the Board is judicial
in nature. It's legislative in nature. I don't
think the Board has to say to the community,
"Prove things to us~"
It would be nice if we could prove
everything to a scintilla so that there would
be no question in your mind exactly what should
be done with this property; but I think the
community has spoken again, and again and again,
and the community has said to you don't allow
this property to be multiple dwelling density.
Don't allow it to be four units to an acre.
We said that more in thirteen years.
I would hope that this Board would act as a
legislative body. By that I mean a sensitive
and considerate body, and that it responds to
the will of the electorate,
are saying to you again,
stop it and stop it now,
is now, and you are the Board,
and your constituent~
and again and again,
and the time to do it
and we ask that
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you do it now, and the place to do it
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. BEAR:
is here.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you,
to hear a thank you.
Okay.
Thank you. Again, I ask anyone who
would like to address the Board, please come
up to the mike. Frank?
My name is Franklin Bear.
I would like to thank the Board for
giving us an opportunity to make our comments,
and also I think that between this afternoon
and this evening -- I didn't do a head count --
I think that some four hundred people turned
out for these new hearings. I would also like
to say that we appreciate the work that has
been done by not only the Town Board and others,
but also volunteers that have participated in
the planning process and so forth.
So, I think that all of us appreciate
this opportunity to be here, and I think the
fact that some four hundred people turned out
indicates a real definite concern on the part of
the people, and we appreciate this opportunity
for them to be heard. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
Frank. It is always nice
Is there anyone else who would
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MRS. VISSER:
like to address the Town Board? Any comments
whatsoever?
It doesn't have to be a prepared
statement. In the rear?
I am Lisa Visser. I met Marge Skabry
a couple of years ago at the original hearings
for the Master Plan, and we are here for the
same reason tonight. We still don't want to
see Soundview Avenue opened up from Mattituck
to Cutchogue. We don't need more traffic throug
our neighborhood.
That's all I
you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
Town Board?
am here to say. Thank
Any other comments to the
MR. MARTIN:
I am sure you have some more comments.
Sir?
My name is Ralph Martin. I live in
East Marion.
I would just like to make two comments
one on Article XII.
I think we should improve what little
we have without going into estuaries, even
marshland. We should leave those areas alone --
I mean absolutely alone.
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The crabbing has gone down, the
scallops aren't around so much anymore, the
fishing is not as good as it used to be. There
was a time when the fishermen used to put their
weights from the boat overboard and that was
fine, we got a lot of crabs and lobsters. That
has ceased to be done by the State or whoever.
We seem to lose a lot of fish, crabs and so fort~
Going back past the Article XII, it
seems like tonight I have heard the same story
time and time again from the Orient Point
development to New Suffolk. The people who live
here don't want another South Fork with washouts
as an example, Kenny's Beach -- diners, tire
shops, discos, pizzerias, junk shops.
I like it as it is right now, and I
am sure most people here like it the same way.
I don't know what the answer is, but
I don't think with the cluster developments, witt
the amount of business zoning, it's going to
stay as we have it.
This is a very unique area, and it
won't be that way if this continues to go on and
on and on. It's going to end up like the South
Fork in twenty years.
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Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Again, is there anyone
that would like to address the Town Board?
MR. KRAEHLING: My name is Paul Kraehling. In
listening to all the controversy that we have
had tonight and just getting things in my mind,
the efforts that the Town Board has put into
the Master Plan is definitely appreciated by
the community, but I would like to say in
spending all the time and money that's been done
there is a definite need for an environmental
impact study to be done before the Master Plan
is adopted, and I really feel there should be
a moratorium on any Zoning Board changes in
the community until that time because there are
too many questions that seems to be from all
of the comments that the community has to say
to be answered, and I would hate to see people
trying to put things in before a Master Plan is
adopted, and to try and sort out what they say,
get under the wire. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else like to
address
MRS. MILMAN:
North Road right across
the Town Board?
My name is Saul Milman. I live on the
the street from the
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
MR. ONUFRAK:
I think there
he said.
new Mobil gas station.
Since it has opened, we do not need
any more night lights; we do not need any
audio systems because of the P.A. system through
the self-service tanks, and we don't encourage
you to view the beautiful scene across the
street.
My concern is that the Town Board
should consider not only where they are putting
things, but what they are doing to a poor person
like me when they do get there.
I do hope you will have some
consideration for what the area will look like
after it is planned so you will know where to
plan things and where to put them. Thank you.
Thank you.
My name is Joseph Onufrak from CANDO.
I didn't want to talk tonight because
I spoke this afternoon, but I either didn't
understand the speaker that was here before, or
should be a correction made in whaJ
He said that he would like to see a
moratorium on anything being done with a change
of zone. I think that's a mistake. We are
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asking for a change of zone, and I don't think
there should be any moratorium.
Where the moratorium should take
place is on the construction on something going
on that piece of property while the argument
is taking place of whether it should be there
or not because we don't want to find ourselves
arguing with you or fighting in court while
there is a bulldozer working out in the field.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
would like to address
There has
with all the people.
Is there anyone else who
the Town Board?
to be some more comments
Everyone hasn't spoken.
Okay, we have another twenty minutes.
If nobody has any comments -- again, does anyone
have any comments at all?
If not, I would like to thank everyone
who was involved here from the members of the
Town Board, Planning Board, Town Government,
all the volunteers, all the people who came out
to let us know what you think about a plan that
took four and a half years to come to this point
So, again, thank you very much
and, at this time, I will close the public
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hearing. Thank you.
[WHEREUPON THIS PUBLIC HEARING WAS CLOSED
AT 8:45 P.M.]
o0o
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