HomeMy WebLinkAbout12/01/1988 PUBLIC HEARING
SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD
December 1, 1988
3:00 P.M.
IN THE MATTER OF A PROPOSED "LOCAL LAW TO AMEND THE SOUTHOLD
TOWN ZONING CODE AND THE ZONING MAP INCORPORATED THEREIN, TO
IMPLEMENT IN WHOLE OR IN PART, THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE MASTER
PLAN UPDATE PREPARED BY THE PLANNING BOARD".
Present:
Absent:
Supervisor Francis J. Murphy
Councilwoman Jean W. Cochran
Councilman George L. Penny IV
Councilwoman Ruth D. Oliva
Councilwoman Ellen M. Larsen
Town Clerk Judith T. Terry
Planner David Emilita
Town Attorney Schondebare
Justice Raymond W. Edwards
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I'd like to officiallyopen the ~ublic hearing to be held
on a proposed local law in relation to zoning. The official notice to be read
by Councilman Penny. For the sake of brevity, he's not going to read the
entire plan.
. COUNCILMAN PENNY: "Public notice is hereby given the the Town Board
of the Town of Southold will hold a public hearing on "A Local Law to amend
the Southold Town Zoning Code and the Zoning Map incorporated therein, to
implement in whole or in part, the recommendations of the Master Plan Update
prepared by the Planning Board", on the 1st day of December, 1988, at 3:00
P.M. and 7:30 P.M., at the Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold, New
York, at which time all interested persons will be heard.
The purpose of this proposed Local Law is as follows:
The proposed Local Law is comprised of a comprehensive set of Zoning
amendments to implement the Master Plan Update of 1985. The existing eight
zoning districts are replaced by sixteen new zoning districts, while the Afford-
able Housing District (AHD) remains. In addition, amendments are made to
the text of the current Zoning Code relative to Site Plan Approval, Special
Exceptions and Landscaping, Screening and Buffer Regulations. A new.Zoning
Map will be simultaneously adopted reflecting the new Zoning Districts.
Copies of the proposed amendments are available in the Office of the Town
Clerk to any interested persons during business hours.
Copies have also been placed in the Floyd Memorial Library, Greenport,.
The Southold Free Library, Southold, the Cutchogue Free Lib~-ary, Cutchogue,
the Matti~uck Free Library, Mattituck, and the Fishers Island Free Library,
Fishers Island. Dated November 1~ 1988. Judith T. Terry, Town Clerk."
I have an affidavit of publication from 'l-ne Suffolk Times, an affidavit of
publication from The Traveler-Watchman~ and an affidavit of posting by the
Town CJerk, that this has been posted on the Town Bulletin Board. We've
no further communications. ~ .
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: You've heard the official reading, and I would like
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to ask anyone in the audience, who would like to address the Town Board on
any parts of this proposed local law. I'd like to start on the left, and ask
anyone to please come up to the microphone, identify yourself for the record~
and we're here to listen. Anyone on the left? Sir?
ROBERT MUIR: My name is Robert Muir. I reside at 2850 Gillette Driver East
Marion, N. Y. I wish to speak against the adoption of the Master Plan. ~
represent the Marion Manor Property Owners Association. We are concerned
about the change in zoning proposed for the L. I. Oyster Farms property owned
by Neted of America. As one of nine homeowners who have been notified of
the request to change the property from zone C-I to Light Industrial in order
to construct a resort complex including 160 motel units, I speak for all nine
homeowners as well as the Marion Manor Property Owners Association members
as being strongly opposed to having motels on that property. According to
the Master Plan that property would be zoned M II which allows for motels.
Since we would have no opportunity to object to such zoni. ng change which
would allow the construction of a large motel complex in the center of a residen-
tial area, we must express our opposition to the adoption of the Master Plan.
Thank you, very much, for the opportunity to speak.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, sir. Anyone else on the left? In the
middle?
WILMA MARSTON: I'm Wilma Marston, president of Water~ Land and Wildlife
Protection Group. Tonight, I will speak officially, for my group. Right now,
I'm here to support the Marion Manor Property Owners Association. We request
a moratorium on that regard. Tonight I will go into detail.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Frank?
FRANKLIN BEAR: I'm Franklin Bear, speaking on behalf of myself. ~ am deeply
concerned about the negative process through which this so-called Master Plan
has gone, ever since the very beginning. The first thing that troubled me
was the makeup of the, so-called, advisory committee, whose form was determined
by Henry Raynor, who was then chairman of the Planning Board - a committee
of eight, which included three real estate agents and a lawyer deeply involved
in real estate related to development. The other four included representatives
of the League of Woman Voters and the North Fork Environmental Council~ a
farmer and a man from the Police Department. The first version of the Master
Plan, submitted by the consultants, Raymond Parish, Pine and Weiner (RPPW),
was weakened by the Town Board, which had quite diffierent makeup then
as now. Other versions became weaker, each time in ways that seened to serv.e
the interest of real estate developers and related businesses which would profit
from more development, and which would damage the rural character of the
Town, and leading businesses such as farming, fishing and tourism. One
disturbing example is the proposal for strip zoning, where there would be a
non-conforming existing use. This would reverse the Town's policy against
strip development and intrude on higher zoned areas. There are other problems
with the propsed current Master Plan, which you will hear about from other q
speakers. Can't we now reverse the direction the plan has b~en taking? Wouldn't
it be .more effective_to go back to the original plan and make it better instead
of worse? This would require a moratorium of up to a year. Meanwhile it
would take the pressure off the Pianning Department, which now is .swamped
with proposals for development. This Board now has an opportunity to work
for all of Southold's citizens, not just ~.few dollar-oriented interests. Thank
you.
Pg 3 - LL Zoning ,i' '~;: .:'~i-~::' .-'-:" ·
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Frank. Anyon else in the middle like
to address the Town Board. Yes?
VIRGINIA GILL: I'm Virginia Gill from Orient. I would just like to say that
I oppose this Master Plan in its present form, and I think a moratorium should
be declared until a new plan is put in place. This present Master Plan is
a zoning plan and not a real Master Plan. A real plan would have more purpose
and meaning. Would have rules and regulations for what should be accomplished.
Would project the future capacity of the Town for the next 20, 25 years.
think it's time that Southold Town included provisions for setting aside land
for a. Town park, which families, and especially children, could use. I boise
the Town will consider s~raping this plan, and declaring a moratorium unti~
a new plan can be drawn up. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
ALMET LATSON: My name is Almet Latson. I live on Town Creek. I would
like very much to protest the zoning plan to put a motel at the mouth of Town
Creek. This is ridiculous considering the efforts of the Town to promote
fisheries, shell fisheries. There is, also, M-2 around the Port of Egpyt area
and Young's Shipyard. Motels and shipyards do not go well together. Entirely
different skills are required, and the motels should be kept separate from the
shipyards. The shipyards, already have all the business they can handle,
and there's no need to get motel business in there, too. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else in the middle, ~ho would like to address
the Town Board?
LARRY FULLER PERRINE: My name is Larry Fuller Perrine. I'm a resident
of Southold Township. I live in Mattituck Park. ! also, am a manager of a
vineyard, winery operation on the North Fork. I'm, also, a member of So~thold
2000. I object to the Master Plan as it is presently drawn, primarily because
it does not provide effective protection for farmland on the North Fork, and
for the maintenance of its agricultural use. It actually protects the right of
developers and local citizens to sub-divide and build houses forever chan~in~
the use of the land in Southold Town. I believe that the Township has to
get serious about providing for the maintenance of agriculture in this area,
and it's going to take more than just 2 acre zoning to do that. It's going to
require the development of programs like agricultural land bank, serious develop-
ment of cluster development, that provide realisticly for agricultural I~nd use
on the land that's left after a cluster development is created. There are dozens
of other ways to go about helping to preserve the agricultural land use. Not
just "agrucultural character" of Southold Township. Character is a word too
easily used to say we'd like farm stands left along the side of the road.
Agricultural communities employs people permanently. I believe that the Town
should develop a moratorium on further development, until a serious Master
Plan can be developed, which will provide for the land maintenance of-agriculture
in Southold Township.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone in the middle would like to address
the Town Board? Anyone on the right? Sir?
DR. MITAROTOi~IDO:~ I'm Dr. - and I live in Cutchogue. This
is the first time I've been speaking here~ but there's a real need for me to
be here today. I think we desperately need a moratorium on this. Southold
Town, the appearance of the Town today, does not in anyway reflect 100 or
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possibly thousands of residential and commercial structures as they're approved,
or will be approved soon, unless there's a halt to developing in our Town.
The simple truth is that Southold Town will never be as open~ clean~ quiet
or safe as it is now. We must limit the crowding, dirt, noise and trouble that
inevitably accompany development. I, also, object to the word development.
It sounds like we're underdeveloped, like the third world countries. I don't
think there's a difinate need for d~truction spoils the environment. I came
out here seven and a half years ago, and I've noticed a big change, and as
for the worse. I don't eat scallops from Peconic Bay anymore. I don't fish
in Peconic Bay anymore. I can't get to the A & P on the weekend, because
there's so many cars in the road, and I appeal to the :best instincts of every-
body on the Board in Southold Town to stop this. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else in the middle?
SHIRLEY BACHRACH: i'm Shirley Bachrach. Southold. About five years ago~
at least, we had a petition on which 5,000 people signed their names to holding
down deVelopment~ and adherence to a Master Plan, that would enforce such
development, lack of development. Now we're at the stage where nothing seems
to have been accomplished, except more development. We need a stop program
like we have for the waste management program, only to stop further development
Soon there won't be any left to protect. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: In the back?
SAM McCULLOUGH: My name is Sam McCullough. I live in Cutchogue. I'm
opposed to the passage of the Master Plan, as it now exists. It implys, or
states a purpose of preserving a rural area, its agricultural background, its
fishing background, and as that plan is constructed there is no mechanism
by which that means can be accomplished. So until this situation is corrected,
the Master Plan should not passed, and perhaps a moratorium on further
development until a sound plan is in place, should be the only reasonable
alternative.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else in the middle? Over on the
right?
ALICE HUSSEY: Good afternoon. Alice Hussey, League of Woman Voters.
We are here once again for public hearings on the zoning amendments to the
Master Plan. The League once more objects to the proposed zoning code. Like
swiss chees, it's riddled with holes. To accept the Code now and fix it later,
is to try to build on a shaky foundation--the final structure will never be strong.
We have been petitioning for changes for years without result. How can we
imagine or hope that revisions will be made in the future? In October, 1981~
the League of Woman Voters surveyed the Town regarding the revision, of a
Master Plan. The results were given to the Board. At that time, citizens
opted 4 to 1 for protection and conservation of open space, wetlands, ~voodlands,
and flood plain areas. They felt that shoreline development should be limited
to nature preserves and parks. Our concerns are not new to you, nor have
we suddenly changed our position. Yet~ here we are~ 7 years later, still troubled,
still dissatisfied and obviously, still unheard. What is the problem? Can it
. be that this resistance to the public input is motivated by partisan goals? Is
party ideology more important than sound judgement? If the Board is so politi-
cally oriented, it should realize that we, the people, are your ultimate political
concern. We put you where you are to carry out the policies best suited to
serve everyone and we will determine your survival and also that of Southold
Town. Thank you.
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SUPERVISOR MURPHY Anyone else on my right like to address the Board?
RUSSELL MANN: I will be brief, because I think most of the points have
been made, and I would say, I'd like to go on record as being in favor of a
moratorium, as proposed by the Southold 2000 group.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else on the right who would like to address
the Boar-d?
RUSSELL MANN: Can I...? If we have a moratorium, I should think it would
be in the hands of the Board. If the Board is in favor of open space and
rural .characteristics, and so forth, to take whatever action from time to time
that might come up between now and the end of any proposed moratorium.
Thank yo.'..
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else on the right like to address the Town
Board? Start over here, on the left. Anyone?
CHRISTOPHER KELLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. Supervisor, members of the Board.
My name is Christopher Kelley from the law firm of Twomey, Latham, Shea
& Kelley. I'm here on the behalf of Henry Weismann and Frank Flynn, who
as you know I'¥e appeared before you on this related matter several times
before. Because I've been here before when we've dealt with the GElS and
as well when we dealt in the winter of '87, .the first set of hearings on this
plan. I would like to ask that we incorporate by reference, that you incorporate
by reference into the record, the analasis that was prepared by Frederick Rooter
land planner, and Larry Penny, environmental consultant, at that time. ~Those
were both...both those reports are dated February 11th, 1987, and are contained
in the Board's file. Although those remarks dealt specifically with the o.ld
MB zone that was proposed at that time, I believe are inpertinent to the M2
zone, which I would like to address my comments to this afternoon, as those
apply to sensitive environmental areas, environmental areas throughout the
Town. Our two major concerns are that plan has been adopted without adequate
environmental review, and that they simply don't represent goOd planning,
particularly in the situation of the M2 zone. As I've addressed before in regards
to the GELS, there are five points that we think need some a~tention by this
Board before any plan is approved. First, the definition of the M2 zone as
contained in the Plan does not comport with the site characteristics of numberous
of the sites that it's been applied to. And this I think is particularly true
in the case of the Sage Cove area, which I've spoken to you about. The GElS
fails to adequately i dentifty adverse impacts from this change of zone. It fails
to discuss alternatives to this type of zoning in those areas, and it fails to
incorporate new plan mitigation of the adverse impacts that are identified. Further-
more the GElS did not take a significant look at the growth of impacts of this
new zone. As to the planning concerns, I note that in numberous places in
particular Sage Cove of this M2 zone has been applied where there's a shallow
waterfront area, with inadequate: flushing to mitigate the pollution loading that
may occur if a site a motel/hotel/restaurent in this vicinity. As Mr. Emilita
has advised me before, if you don't intend motels, hotels, restuarants to be
in these locations, then you shouldn't zone them for them. Another concern
that we have is that the speciel permit criteria containing the code are too
vague and too general to .... mitigate the impacts of these potential hotels, motels
and restuarants that we now have,as of the day you put this new code into
effect. I would argue that this is the vagueness of the crit~eria contained in
the code amounts to an illegal delagation: of your legislative authority to the
Zoning Board of Appeal5. It is you as a body that should decide exactly how
and where hotels, motels, and restaurents should go, and not the Zoning Board
of Appeals. We're concerned, also, as well about some the ambiguities about
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the density limitations contained in the M2 zone. Section 100-121B, regarding
the M2 zone, leaves the determination of density to the Zoning Board of Appeals
up to one unit per 4,000 square feet with "public water and sewer". However,
in section 100-151 the code speaks of the same density as relying on community
water and sewer. My search of the code, I did not find a defination of either
of those terms, however it could be construed as community water and sewer
being provided on site as opposed to public, which is not something that is
not provided on site. I think there's something that needs to be addressed
before this plan is approved. The Board expressed in regard to this Master
Plan, its intentions that although the plan may seem imperfect the best thing
to do is to prove it now, and deal with the defects later, however this attitude
is not reassuring to those of us who have 'been concerned about this all along
and have not noticed any significant movement by the Board i.n changing or
addressing the problem that have been brought to your attention. We don't
have any great confidence that your unwillingness to change t.he Plan UP to
now, will be somehow be converted the day after the plan is approved tO great
willingness to address all these problems and make the nec~essary changes.
Accordingly we request that the M2 designation in the Code be revamped, or
dropped from the Code, and! what particularly we request that. a. ll pr6perty
surrounding She Sage Cove basin be Iow-density residential. Thank you,
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else like to address the .Town Board? Jean?
JEAN TIEDKE: I don't want to address you all. I want to ask you a. question,
please, if I may. Would you explain how often and for. what purposes~the Town
Board, the Planning Board, the ZBA, and who. ever. else, meet to discuss ~the
problems of the Town? To discuss the ideas of each Board.to find out what
the concensus might be? Do you ever come to a concensus.on all these boards?
On anything?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Yes. Through the Code Committee mainly. Most problems
are addressed that way. Then they come to the Town :Board
JEAN TIEDKE: The Code Committee? Who's on the C, ode Committee?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Representives of all those departments you were just
talking about, plus the Town Attorney.
JEAN TIEDKE: All the Boards meeting together?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Not the entire..not every member of each Board. No.
JEAN TIEDKE: Well, I recommend it.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else like to address the Town Board? Yes,
in the back?
TOM WICKHAM: I'm Tom Wickham from Cutchogue. I've got several specific
comments, a couple of general comments, then a few recommendations about
the proposed Master Plan. First on agriculture, which is clearly stated in the
objectives as being one of the areas that we want to try to preserve. I think
it's important to try to preserve agriculture in viable state, and not as a series
of rather small picture farms that would look nice but may not be truly viable.
And I note that in the proposed document it would restrict farm stand 'size
to a rather small size, with no means of-enlarging, in fact with even the possibility
of cutting it back if the stand got too large. Second, in regard to water, which
I think we all agree is one of the key variables here on Long Island. I just
don't think it's equitable. I think it's fundamentally unfair to restrict zoning,
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to 2 acre zoning on most of the island, and then to promote condominiums,
etc. on the most fragile portions of the North Fork. I think it's wrong from
a waterfront view, and I think it's wrong from an equity point of view. A couple
of general comments, when I saw this document I had to conclude its not a
Master Plan. It has the structure of a Master Plan with all kinds of indemhifying
detail in it. Those of us who have worked with Master Plans can see a much
more general document. It shouldn't be so highly specific and to have to get
into all the detail and then present all of this we're bound into troubles and
problems. I would recommend that the Board consider a genuine Master Plan,
but now something as complicated as this, that's almost impossible for an ordinary
person aside the planning process here to understand and to comment .intelligently
on. Recommendations as to where we go 'from here. ,First, of all, I think
its clear that the Town badly needs a'g~nuine Master Plan. I don't think if
I were on the Board,or if anyone of tl~e bodies in Southold Town here, I think
it would be most difficult'to answer the questions and come up with a sysl~ematic
program for the Town. We need a Master Plan. I don't personally thin.k a
moratori'u~m is the answer. Experience from moratoriums have not :been. very
successful. If you Io0k at what normally happens, there's..a period where nothing
happens.,..and,then suddenly everything jumps at the end 0'~ the morat0~ium.
I thine what $outhold'Town needs is to paSsa genuine Mas~er-Plan, one without
all of the.~detail. Let: the Board and various 'bodies go back' and then firm~
up the detail, and present it, but start out with a Master Plan'soon, put it
in place, 'and then work on the detail. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY': Anyone else like to address the Town Board? Over
here on the left? (No response.) Over on the right? (No response.) Any
Town Boards members like to make a comment at this time?
COUNCILWOMAN COCHRAN: The only thing I would like to comment on in
relation to the record. I had a call from John Thatcher, from Fishers Island.
Unfortunately he was not aware of the hearing until this morning. Evidently
our local papers do not get to Fishers Island as quickly as they are available
to us. He wanted me to express his concern in relation to Fishers Island,
that he did not feel that there were not enough environmental safeguards and
also that he favored a moratorium, so I said that I would relay his comments.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else? Dave, would you like to comment?
DAVE EMII_ITA: No, I have nothing say today.
COUNCILWOMAN LARSEN: Frank, I would just like to say a few words. I
think this is the fourth set of hearings that this Board has participated in
since the Master Plan was presented. The Master Plan without a doubt we
de~inately need a Master Plan for the Town of 5outhold. Most of the comments
that have been made during all the hearings, I can agree with. Does the Master
Plan adequately provide for viable agricultural community based on the proposed
zoning? Does it provide for a viable fishing industry, not in lieu of the Brown
Tide, based on the proposed zoning? With agriculture, tourism, and fishing
are the main industries of the Master Plan is intended to address, the Master
Plan falls far short of that. There are some good points to the Master Plan.
The goals and the objectives are good. The residential office zoning is good.
.The R80 zoning in many cases, are good. But many cases with the Master
Plan is, in my opinion, is a conforma3cy of these all these zoning that is already
existing. I had considered on many occassions voting for it, and then a week
later I wasn't going to vote for it. That's the type of situation the Master
Plan presents to me. On many occassion, the language is very heavy, redundant
confusing, and I think it does need a lot more work, and I think that the Town
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Board really has to sit down and seriously work on it. There is great thrust
to get it passed. It's like a albatross around our necks. It's been around
forever. We'd like to get it out of the way. But you just take it for what
it is and in spite of all the comments and all the great suggestions, that have
been made, and not make the changes ahead of time, I don't feel comfortable
that they'll be made afterwards myself. We had a great Code Committee meeting
last night, where we addressed site plan, and we made a lot of progress. We
eliminated a lot of language that wasn't necessary. There was agreement among
most of the members that were_ there. But we really have to do this with
the whole Master Plan. Now, I ran for election and said I don't want to see
business zoning on route 48 and people voted for-me. Yet, the Master Pia.n.·
has business zoning all the way through Southold, from Boissea_uAvenue, all
the way up to Horton's Lane 300 feet deep both sides. I don't think condo~
miniums are a good idea in areas where we don't have water, or on the water-
front, and people voted for me. I said, you know, I feel that we should protect
our wetlands, hotels and motels,we should protect our farmland. And people.
voted for me, so I feel that if I vote for the Master Plan, I'm not carrying
out the wishes of the people who put. me. in office. We need a Master Plan.
We have to get a Master plan. I think we're at the poi'nt where we need
hire a gOod environmental attorney, and an environmenta~i lawyer, and,
sorry, not an environmental attorney, excuse me., a zoning atto~,ney,'wh.~
can go through the plan ~nd we can Sp~d.a few.more tbo,usand ~lollars~.
spent eighty thousand dollars .alre~ly.. '¥~hat's ianother 10~ ~ o~ 131thousand
dollars when the whole future of:the Town depends on this, and ~his i$ ~!~'.e
document ~hat'~..going to effec;t.the ~es.,0f ev~ry..singl~ Person.that live~?h~re
for manylgenerati0ns, l~m not. alzoniog law, y~er.. ~ can'i ~i.~ her~ ,and ~l' ~u
exactly what we should do, I~'~ I.know based 'on the sugges~ion.~,.and ~
of my own notes, that we can do'a lot bett~r than we're doing.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Ellen. Anyone else like to address the
Town Board?
GERT REEVES: I'm Gert Reeves from Orient. I liked Mr. Wickham's remarks
a great deal, and Ellen's, too. Someho~w they got to mesh, because we've got
to have a Master Plan. When we.take a ride down the is~and~'we see the r. esults
of places that do not have Master Plans~ and we're fortunate. ~ think without
exaggeration that you'll find the Town of Southold alone has approximately
60 places of business that are clo:sed. Never opened. It doesn't look nice.
In a couple of years they're going to be boarded up, windows broken out~
The realtor comes in.He~'doesn~tu~e much of his own money. He borrows from
the bank~ and the bank ~ets us, and then you have forec~losures. 'Then you
have empty broken down; what are you going to do? Ar~. we going to pu~
it into welfare housing? They wiil have to be used.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Mike?
MICHAEL ZWIEG: Ladies and gentlemen of the Southold Town Board. My name
is Michael Zweig. I am President of Southold/2000. Over the past year, ~ and
other members of the $outhold/2000 Board of Directors have repeatedly expressed
to you our concerns about the shortcomings of the proposed zoning map in
relation to the laudable goals of the proposed master plan. I would like to
present to you now a dozen coupons from our latest newspaper ad opposing
~he plan and ca!ling for a year-long moratorium. These people addressed the
letter-coupon to us instead of to you directly. I'll just hand you these. Now,
after having gone through the environmental review process, which we have
held all along was deeply flawed and inadequate, you are coming to the real
decision-how to deal with the zoning map itself. Of course~ the plan is more
Pg 9 - LL Zoning.
than just a map, and the goals of the plan nobody disagrees with. I will not
review yet again the reasons for our conclusion that the proposed map sets
in place zoning which is utterly inadequate to the plan's goals. I will only
restate and wish to emphasize that what you have before you now is a recipe~
for residential and commercial development of the town to the exclusion of agri-
culture and marine economy, both of which will perish, along with the tourism
they attract. It's just a fact. That's what is front of you. That's what you
are now -contemplating. Such an outcome is completely at odds with the desires
of town residents, much of the local business community, and the visitors who
boost our local economy in the summer months. It is also not a necessary outcome,
as has been shown by your own Economic Advisory Committee and other studies
and testimony. Some of you have acknowledg.ed that the zoning ordinance has
serious weaknesses,., but want to pass the plan and then fix it. I believe this
is an un'wise a. nd unworkable way to proceed. A zoning map is a semi-permanent
compact ~the Town makes with its residents'.and those who wish. to. do business
here. Law and custom contemplate only periodic review at intervals of teA'
years or so. We are now engaged in such a review. 'Town res'idents and developers
expect that the final outcome will be stable for some time. If you .create. zones,
such as!M2.., or fail..to create zones, such as the proposed special core watershed
protectiOr~'.area, in .an .action.~to pass the plan just to get .it passed, these errors
will not.~ea$.ily be corrected. They are not minor or marginal .matters. You
can anticipate'serious leg,al challange from those who have been wai.ting to see
what plan'iwiil Settle on. Further, it is realistice to wonder, if, all good intentions
notwiti~s~a;ndin§, you. Will. ~eally want to expend the needed energy to add. ress
the contr0vertial zoning issues after the plan is adopted, when the pressure
to act wlillli, lappear to be less intense. Of course, it won't be 'less intense~: because
the devel(~pment is g(~ing to be there. The map is the' operational', key to:~plan
implemen~tation. You ishold not create the wrong key, coded~.to open the Wrong
doors. You. do not have .to do it. The a~ternative we propose .is a one year
moratorium, on major .development, during which time you hire.an expert environ-
mental planne and land u~e/zoning lawyer to fashion a map wh~ich really does
accomplish~ the tasks befot'e us. That is your responsibility as leaders. Opposition
to the master pian is ~.not limited to envi.-onmental groups. The GreenporttSouthold
Chamber: (~f Commerce! :now opposes it too. Can there be ~ny.question after
the last Town electio.ns, that Ellen just referred to, what the desilres of the
residents are with re,ard to the preservation of the rural maritime and agricultural
character of the North Fork? Do you doubt that the question will b~ at the
heart of the 1989 election, campaign? I and others here .today are asking you
to provide.the kind of leadership required for the condition !of the Town. Other
communities .have found a way to do what we need to do. I~et's learn from
them. Let's take courage from them, and bring Southold into the;next century
as the unique place it is. .You will have the broadest suppoFt for your responsible
leadership. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPY: Thank you, Mike. Anyone else like to address the
Town Boa rd.~
FREDDIE WAXBERGER: I'm Freddie Waxberger, vice-president of the Orient
Association. I came in the middle of Ellen's talk. I'd liked to have heard all
of it, because I certainly second that of it, which I heard. I don't want to
repeat w,hat Mike said, but there are a couple of things that I think..specific
points that I'd like to refer to. The problem with the idea of passing the plan
and then fixing it, one of the things that has worried us a lot, is that some
of the things that need to be fixed are things that seem to have gotten into
the plan over the last few years, in response to private interests. That suggests
to me that those things that need to be fixed might get passed the point of
fixing, be. fore you all can get around to fixing them, and we'll wind up with
no time to fix the things' that need to be fixed. These are serious things.
Pg 10- LL Zoning
There are many inconsistencies in the zoning of the plan throughout Southold
Town. I wrote a note on behalf of the Orient Association to you, about the
particular things in Orient that had identified. But I know that a lot of people
had found similar instances in their townships, and when we put those all together
we see a lot of damage being done before those things that need to be fixed
can be fixed. I think what I want to do more than anything though, is to
acknowledge that I realize how tired you must all be of this. I know in myself
that although this is something I need to handle, but it's Christmastime. There's
so much to do. I just don't have the energy to do it. In fact, ~ ha;d a. petition
made up and I got out in front of the Orient post office two weekends ago,
and I got 2 pages of signatures, which I have here, but with all intention to
get out in front of the supermarket day after day, that's all I did. So I entirely
understand how you feel about this. But the feeling that you just have to. just
get it over with,but that would be terrible. That would be a disaster to come
to that point of view. (Changed tape)' We need to be able to fix this Master
Plan, so that it works. So that it's consistent with the goal's=of the plan.
wouldn't want you think that it's the same old '.faces. Mike sta~nds up, ~p~- !
stand up, or Ronnie stands up, but I think it's important for ~ou:to k~o~
that when you're looking: at me, you're looking at four hund'red p~ople.' ~¥hen
you're'looking at Mike you're looking at a membership ~f Southoid/2000~
not just me, or Mike, we're 400 or however many 100 p~0P~e~ Ronr. ie reo~cs~nts
the North Fork Environmental Counc~i' of howe~er many =people, and we',.,~ be~r
asked to represent lhem .to you.. ,Re~resent their point of ~e~ ~, you. We
all want .to support you, to do this~ :TO ac:kl~m~".c'dl? l.h~:l il.'.~
time. You're al, k~tired, o{.i~~ .bq~t ~h~t,;.we ~ealiy "~c~:d i~
Plan',that~.ful~fills~ the goals.,t~e'.se~ of?goi,l:, rhal we h,;ve
you ~o. fix.it, We .really ~ do .:need :~,,~qFa~o,-im.. Y.u al; kno~ ~1~:~ m'"'<,s 'i,
be fixed., and, I.~hi~ you I,,no~ i~m',' lonq iii. H.im; io i;.k!, }.t, ~: 'ix ,i, 'l',',,;
can:determine what I[,, k'r,llh or ;h:, illlH"ii~orJilln i:li;jll,
need tO. ha'v~,:lthe: .mori:L(wium ill I~ l)r'o,i'cL..[Jk;, ,omlnorcia[
the~e are. al,~:?,th:e~e,::~mply ~,[l~l'i:S, w~llu~de, ~ali'r['rolll d*'~
of th,, ([all,jill' [i.~ [J'lE~ [),ly. You (;,ii, ill:lk(' ][li'l~i! d.'ci'~ior.:,.
oxer wiih, I~,i i'eill~y d~inq ~m~iqhin~I l~ ~l~.i !l~a io'.~ don~
you and will :'sali,sfY lhc 'l'own. '1 Ii.ink you. >
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else like to address the To~vn Board?
WES RUROEDE: My name is Wes Ruroede. I don't have anything, particular
to say in mind right now. I'~1 save that for later. The Sta~te ofl Bays Conference
was held last ~ summer, and the Peconic is on its way out. I" Can a~ttest to it,
and so can a'l] the scientists who .spoke, and all the baymen>.thatlare out of
work, or the. fishermen, who no longer make any money anY~nore, The State
of the Bays Conference called for development of wetlPnd ar~as to. end, if that's
what it takes to save this earth. St. rigent run-off, control ~f ruin-off; or- all
these things, contributed to Brown' Tide, wiping out the scallops, ~ think
they proved that the 75 foot buffer zone, now betwee,n deve~lo, pment and wetlands
area, sensitive areas, does not work. It's not en,ough. Ye~.thel-e .are valriances
put out for ,it. I don't think the 'State of the Bays Conference, ,the .state Of
the bays, the creeks, the foam washing up on the beaches. You:;don','t want
to get into Riverhead or anything,, but. this busine:ss as uspci, t'l~e p0l!iti, cal influence
the money ..i.it'S got to end, or at le. ast.be strige~tly contro!l.~d. :i jQs,l want
to say one mlinor thing. I have a question for M~, M,a~phy:, This 'm0raing
I heard on WLNG radio, I heard a voice say something, aboul'the'one y~ar
moratorium. Is Jt true that you said you .don't know what it would accomplish?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I believe that's true. Anyone else like to address the
Town Board?
Pg 11 - LL Zoning
JEAN TIEDKE: Can you explain why you thought it wouldn't work?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I don't think it would.accomplish anything. Are we
going to stop the planning process? How are we going to do this? What would
the moratorium accomplish? F~om the attorneys, that I've spoken to, from our
own people, I don't see what it's going to accomplish when we have so many
subdivisions already approved, that is not going to stop it. I don't think we
can Stop the planning process. I don't think it would be fair to put a person
through, 'let him spend 'the money to go through on a whole plan; a subdivision
plan, that he wants to do with his property, and .then at the end come and
say, I'm sorry. You can't do it. Now, if it's legal to stoP it in the beginning,
then maybe you could accomplish something. But I don't think you .can. That's
what I was ta~lking about. Anyone else like to address?
FREDDIE WAXBERGER: I'd just like to ask a question about that. How do
you. propose to prol~ect the plan during the period that you need to fix it?
How do you propose to protect us from what might happen to the things that
need fixing l~efore you fix it?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: The biggest problem that we heard, the Town Board
heard, I think, was M1 and M2 zone. I think what was worked out with many
people over many years of discussion, this M1 and M2 is a pretty good basic,
or settlem'ent in that the, afraid, or being scared of putting motels in there,
it's almost~.impossible unless you have a very, very large site on the small marinas.
It's not going to happen. I think it was discussed. 'It was discussed quite
a bit. I b'eli~eve Paul Stoutenburgh, George Penny and the marina owners,
all worked it out, and each and every marina owner worked out exactly, and
I feel that-it was a pretty good one. Now we might disagree o.n that area, The
basic part of the Master Plan, I think, is pretty good. We tried to ge~i[ive
acre zoning. We have it in part of Orient. We have larger areas in other
parts of the Town, too. We tried to get five acre, and we were, by the' ,very
people in 'Orient, a part of them, we were knocked down, we wanted to do
a much larger, and this is areas where once we get this in place I do think
we can go', We've learned so much more about water. I think we can address
these problems. This core watershed area, that was mentioned out here today.
This is very important for the future of the Town. Probably,far more important
than the Master Plan. 'That's where I'm talking about. I don't think we can
accomplish, any'thing with a moratorium. There is work that.has to be done,
and I could guarantee you that we will be doing. Yes?
VELMA MARSTON: On the question of the moratorium, wouldn't one year's mora-
torium accomplish the following: Number 1. On Richmond Creek, where there
may be 87 or 10'0 houses, on this fragile creek, which was illegally extended
in 1972, and I have the correpondence from the files to prove this. Wouldn't
it give the ~rchaelog!cal Society one year to dig in and see if there are any
artifacts? Wouldn't it give us a chance to have a lay back position with this
new Law?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: We're looking for those things. Yes
VEl_MA MARSTON: Wouldn't the moratorium delay development, so some of
'these things can be accomplished, so we can investigate some of the irregularities
that have gone on, say where a developer extended a creek illegally to develop
waterfront property, and had made that creek more fragile by having drain
runoff go into the creek. Where this summer the osprey, the swans were covered
in grease. And if that creek where not extended illegally this would never
have happened. These things we have just found out within the past year
with a great deal of research. Wouldn't a moratorium help us to find out why
Pg 12 - LL Zoning
a creek was extended illegally? Are there Indian artifacts near the creeks,
where the archaeological society told me,yes. The Indian Museum has written
letters to the Board to attest to this. Wouldn't it give us time to create
bigger buffer zones, or work through the County, or maybe through the State,
for land acquisition? But if we allow these plans to go through, these subdivisions
to be developed, we won't have the time. So I was wondering how you felt
about that.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Unfortunately the subdivisions that you're talking
about, have been subdivided many years ago. They are legal subdivisions
that you can not do anything about, except buy the property. The Town has
been very, very active with trying to come up with funds. We're stil! lobbying
up in Albany to have a land transfer tax, so that, yes, maybe we could buy
anold subdivision, that had been subdivided years ago, that probably in t~dayls
standards shouldn't have been done. But a moratorium is not going to do .anything
on that. The only thing we. do need i.s to get the funds to buy up pieces ,like
that. Yes, probably a very area of concern, and one that Southold Town is
very aware of and working with the Planning Board, we, re applying for. an.other
grant tomorrow, Jim is going down, on this road run-off. I think we're p~obably
one -of the foremost towns in it. We're still not doing, enough. We have ~o
do more. A moratorium wouldn't do a darn thing with that. If the Tow. n is
not going to do anything with drainage. We are very aware, o~ these p~bl',ems.
I think the Town Board deserves an awful lot of .credit in this .Town. go~er~ment
for the very innovative efforts that tl~ey've put into on ihe Very thin~gsi~,that
a moratorium wouldn't ~to a darn th~ng'~ about. But we are concer~ed 'ab~
and have 'worked Very hard for.
VELMA MARSTON: Mr. Murphy, I understand some of the facts. The northwest
part of the creek, 'that we're still waiting' for '.a new environmental impact study
on that. No.w the.archaelogical society would need time to go in there and
dig for the indian arti~'acts. In addition, it would take about a year for certain
for certain I~ws to get through, so that we could acquire some of the' land.
There are things that could be dsne, and ! am aware what the Town Boalrd
has done, but also~, for the past eight yea~s we have fought one developer.
Developers io ~At!ant~c City, .speculators who've sold amongst each,~ other.. Some
of them are ~r0mI S~i~.thampton. They dug" ~nto the wetlands illegally.. We~ have
had summons issued~ These wetlands are still dug into. Nothing seems doOe.
We don't I~ave the ~oni,t. oring and enforcing, procedures to stop any of theirs.
One year would give us a little bit more ti~e. Another thin~g is the water.
These projects are going to be connected to a water~ pubH. c water .supply.
People in Suffolk, Eleet Neck's Bay, Indian Neck, Wells ,Road~ they can not
be connected to publiC. Water'. They ha~e clean water~ but,. all th~ peo, ple with
individual w~ils will'~i not have clean ~Vater, ib'ecause the Sui~f~Olk C0u~ty water
report sta~es that s~me. :areas. are. . too f~agiie, and i~'s econ~or~ica~ly. · ~ , infeas~ible~ .~
to connect certain indi¥idual, s ihomes with ~e!ls, wh~re all t.h'ese.p?oJe~cts.lwiH
have their water~ SO for aoother year we cao stuc~y this~ i~nd maybe~co~me
up with'a solution. '.m aware of what your done. I appreciate it. But ~we're
asking for iust a little bit more time.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: As I've said, I don't think the moratorium wou~d help
anything in that area at all. Southold Town is probably the first and onl!y town
.in Suffolk County that has a very active and a tremendous Water Advisory
Committee. It has been formed many years ago, and is doing a fantastic .iob
addressing these very thing. Unfortunately we have no control of where wells
go, or how they are, but I can tell you that the DEC and the Health Department
have learned an awful lot in the last few years. We are not going to haYe
this proliferation of wells overpumping anymore that ruined Nassau County,
ruined Brooklyn, ruined the water supply in there to the point that where
Pag 13 - LL Zoning
in a few short years they're not going to have any clean fresh drinking water,
and we're not allowing these mistakes to happen again. Again, a moratorium
would not have any effect of any of these things. If it did I think this entire
Town Board would be in favor of a moratorium. Any other comments to the
Town Board?
BILL CREMERS . I'm BillCremers '., from Mattituck. I don't have a prepared
speech, but I'd just like to ask the audience, how many of you here oppose
the Master Plan, as it is now.~ Would you raise your hands to let the Town
Board know? How many opposed are for a moratorium?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Okay, thank you. That's not part of a public hearing.
Anyone else like to address? Yes, sir. Doctor?
DR..MITAROTONDO:'_'. Doctor Mitarotondo.,Cutchogue. Is it too simple-minded
to believe that a moratorium means no building? I hope not. And is it too simple-
minded to believe that no building means no hook-ups to water supplies. Means
no run-off.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: By no means, no. Moratorium wouldn't stop building.
Wouldn't stop wells.
DR. MITAROTONDO: What's a moratorium?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
DR. MITAROTONDO:
permits to people?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
It's a p~anning process, to stop the issuing of subdivisions.
That's right. Can you legally stop issuing subdivision
If you had legitimate good legal reason that would
stand up in court, such as a Master Plan. While you're working on a Master
Plan, you could probably have it for about six months. Correct, Jay?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHONDABARE: We did one, don't forget, for six months.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: To get started on the Master Plan.
DR. MITAROTONDO:: We could have a moratorium .....
SUPERVISOR MURPY: But you're not stopping building of houses.
DR. MITAROTONDO: . No, there are people who have already applied for and
received permits to build. That's done.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: People who have vacar~land, that's subdivided, as
we were talking about this one acre parcel on Richmond Creek. They can build.
DR. MITAROTONDO: - Pre-existing. But when you stop people from applying
for more permits, that is the purpose of a moratorium.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: No. Absolutely not.
DR. MIT^ROTONDO:
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
DR. MITAROTONDO:
Then what is the purpose of a moratorium?
It is to stop the issuing of subdivisions.
Okay. It' is to stop the issuing of subdivisions.
Pg 14 - LL Zoning
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:
was this M1 and M2.
Right. And the biggest concern of the Master Plan
DR. ]VIITAROTON-DO: I wouldn't think it's a good idea to stop the issuing
of subdivisions at this point in time in Southold Town. I don't know what
the Board thinks about that.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: You would have to have a legitimate reason for it.
DR. MITAROTO'NDO:· What would that legitimate reason have to be?
SUPERVISOR ~,tURPHY: A short period' of time that you were going to implement
a Master Plan. That there was some real reason for it. The things that we're
talking about and concerned about, road run-off, water and all that, it's not
addressed in a Master Plan. Is not, or it is addressed in a Master Plan, but
it's not going to be stopped, or these problems are not going to go away with
a moratorium.
DR. M. JT~,ROTONDO:'. ,Okay, a mortorium in the past, what legitimate reasons
have been given .by the Town Board to put that in effect.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Jay, would you like to answer that?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHONDABARE: We did it, business properties. We did
it on all "B" parcels. I believe the basis for it was the adverse effect on the
incorporated Village of Greenport. This is parcels on Route 25 going out there.
We wound up as I remember, a lot of work, because we then had people in
the process who were going for "B" permits, and we then looked to see if anyone
who was building a "B" on a parcel that was to be zoned "B", we allowed that
person to proceed forward as the parcel was going to be zoned "B" to begin
with, so each Person had to come in before the Board and explain. We did
it for six months, and l'm not too sure what it accomplished.
DR. MITAROTONDO: So you're saying there was a natural reason, or legitimate
to stop build-up. What was the exact nature of this..
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHONDABARE: Adverse impact in the incorporated Village
of Greenport.
DR. MITAROTONDO: ' What was the adverse impact?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:-. More building outside the incorporated village.
DR. MITAROTONDO:
Isn't that true?
Oh, detrement of Greenport itself. So that is financial?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHONDABARE: It's a whole combination.
DR. MITAROTONDO: ' What I'm getting at, does the environment count as
a reason to have a moratorium, or is that a silly reason for a moratorium?
Couldn't it be a reason? Isn't that what we're talking about today?
COUNCILWOMAN LARSEN: If all the members on the Town Board are really
serious about .... if we wanted to decide, okay, we want fifty percent remainder
of open space, so we're going to set up all our agricultural conservation districts
to cluster and allow for open space for farming afterwards. If we wanted to
look at the M2 zones again, and put hotels on the sound bluff, where in my
Pg 15 - LL Zoning :-~ : ;:. : .::: :_. ' · ~:, "i
opinion, they should be rather than on the creeks, and rezone those parcels
DR, MITAROTONDO:, So the Town Board is empowered to do this things,
what you're telling me]
COUNCILWOMAN LARSEN: Of course, we can do all of this.
DR. MITAROTONDO:~: And still perfect a Master Plan? What if you had a
moratorium in place? I don't see that..
COUNCILWOMAN LARSEN: If we wanted to set up for water. We don't have
water from Greenport. We don't have adequate water. We want to seriously
address that.
DR. MI.TAROTONDO: . I think you are confirming that you can have a moratorium
and water core, and p~fect the Master Plan at the same time. I think that's
the point that we're making here today. Almost everyone here says that, but
maybe not as directly as I'm saying right now. I don't see anything wrong
with that. I have to have it explained to me that I'm wrong about this. It
doesn't make any sense. I would plead with the Town Board, and I know you're
doing a tremendous job already. There are so many different interests, imputs,
This is not questioning your integrity. All I'm saying, if the good people of
Southold really need something better.. They need something to preserve the
mini mum. That's what we're trying to do, to keep part of what we have. There's
going to be more development here. There's going to .be more people living
here, but I lived in New York City, it's scarey, when I see what happens out
here in seven, seven and a half years. I hope everybody on the Board is
on the same line on this. It's our future, and what's more important than
that.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I think in effect, if you look at the ability of somebody
to put a new well, public water supply well, or to extend public water in the
Town, in effect, you have a moratorium. Right? It's virtially impossible. It's
probably three years to even site a new well site. You will not see any of these
subdivisions being built until the water issue is really addressed and taken
care of. And a moratorium, again, would not have any effect whatsoever on
that. That's being taken care of in a whole other field, and as I said this
core watershed area that we're talking about is probably more important to
the residents to Southold Town than the Master Plan.
DR. MITAROTONDO: I live on the edge of what's supposed to be a green
belt in the future. I see a lot of houses going up on it all the time. It's
just my perception of things, I mean, it's called a green belt and called that
for how many years now, but there's another strip of houses on it, and then
there's another business on it. I'm just pleading for what I can see happening
to slow and hopefully stop for a point in time. I'd like one more question to
be answered, if possibleHow many residential and commercial units are on the
block to be built right now? Have been approved and will be going up?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: You would have to ask the Planning Board, for up to
date figures.
DR. MITAROTONDO: . Is there any preception among the Town Board members?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Quite a bit. I doubt if there is afarmon the west side
of Mattituck Inlet that is not subdivided
Pg 16 - LL Zoning
COUNCILWOMAN LASEN: There are about 200 applications before the Planning
Board for both subdivisions, zone change and site plan approval. Three different
things.
DR. MITAROTONDO:'. Multiply by that, by ....... You're talking about several
thousand units. I assume that's a good percentage increase over what exists
in Southold Town right now. I don't know how many people live here year
round.
COUNCILWOMAN OLIVA: About 21 thousand.
DR. MITAROTONDO: Okay, if you're adding another 5,000 on, it's another
25%. right to the top. It's slated right now. What t'm sayingis try to slow it
not stop it , if you could.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I think this entire Town Board has been doing that.
DR MITAROTONDO: Okay, I appreciate your efforts. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else?
VILMA MARSTON: Mr Murphy, what is the purpose of these hearings, if the
Board has already made up the mind.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: The Board has not made up their mind.
VILMA MARSTON: I assume from some of the comments, that..
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: No, I think it started, somebody questioned a remark
I made on the radio about a moratorium.
VILMA MARSTON: Are you still open to maybe there could be a change? Maybe
we could have a moratoruim? Can I assume that?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: -The Town Board has not made up their mind. The
hearing is not closed. Anyone else?
GERT REEVES: I'm still Gert Reeves. With all due respect to each of you,
you all have jobs that I would not want. You are people who mostly lived here
all your lives. I would like very much to have you consider getting somebody
who is sort of an expert on:Master Plans, zoning, that can give us a basic...
and we can go from there. I think it would be money well spent.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I think the Town did hire very good people. One of
them up here is Dave Emilita, who has been doing the planning for us. Yes?
FREDDIE WAXBERGER: Taking it on faith that you all still have open minds
about this, just a couple of things. One of the reasons I feel we need a mora-
torium, I still haven't really got an answer on how the zoning is..the damage
that could be done from the zoning inconsistencies will be protected. I mean,
there are a lot of zoning inconsistencies through the map, which seem to me
.leave the way open for, well, for example in Orient, one thing I didn't under-
stand was designatation of a business zone on Tabor Road. Now I have no idea
who owns that property or what it has do with anything, but there is an empty
store on Village Lane that's been there for a long time, and God knows there
empty store all over the Town. Why designate one parcel on Tabor Road business,
17 - LL Zoning
particularity given the general nature of business discription which opens the
possibility to all kinds of things. I mean it doesn't say, you know, somebody
can apply for a variance for the possibility to have a business here, and then
discuss that business in relationship to that place. The Master P~an doesn't
allow for that. There are a lot things like that, that are just incomprehensible.
Not talking about broad generalities, like water and things like that, but specific
inconsistencies in the Plan, and I don't see what protection we have. While
the Plan 'is being cleaned up, if indeed anyone has any intention to clean it
up from that point of view. It seems to me we need 'a moratorium for that,
and as I said it could be specific. It could be a moratorium on commercial develop-
ment, meratorium on wetlands development. Wouldn't a moratorium help us
to stop and take stock on how many empty stores there are, and how many
businesses the Town can absorb over the next ;x number of years? Are there
commercial development projects now before the Planning Board? I mean, I
don't understand why, because I don't understand why a merchant wouldn't look
around and say, my God, I can't afford to open here. There are so many
empty store here. But people are obviously doing it. So if it's tax writeoffs
or what people get out of it, I don't know, but wouldn't a moratorium give
the Town a chance to stop and take a look, and say,look we really can"t afford
to have anymore empty stores. Let's find out what we can absorb and what
kind or'businesses we can absorb and let's try and get a handle on it. 'Those
kind of things, I don't understand why a moratorium would not be useful.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Just one comment on that, and it's the Town Board
has been discussing these inconsistencies that you're .talking about and :indivi-
dual little zones for a long time, and I can guarantee you, each one that you
find we've probably discussed it atleast twenty times. An awful lot of imput
and we feel a lot of good reasons when in for either changing or keeping what-
ever happened .to be. You could be rest assured that there has not been a
parcel that has not been discussed in this Town. Anyone. e~se like to address
the Town Board? (No response.) If not, we'll recess, and reopen at 7:30
tonight. Thank you.
Public hearing recessed at 4:10 P.M.
Pg 18 - LL Zoning
Present:
Absent:
Public Hearing Reconvened at 7:30 P.M.
Supervisor Francis J.
Councilwoman Jean W.
Councilman George L.
Councilwoman Ruth D.
Councilwoman Ellen M.
Town Clerk Judith T.
Murphy
Cochran
Penny IV
Oliva
Larsen
Terry
Justice Raymond W. Edwards
Planner David Emilita
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: I'd like to officially reopen the public hearing that we
started this afternoon at 3:00 o'clock and recessed. The official notice had
been read in the afternoon, but I do think it's important that we do read it
again, tonight. "Public Notice is hereby given that the Town Board of the Town
of Southold will hold a public hearing on "A Local Law to amend the Southold
Town Zoning Code and the Zoning Map incorporated therein, to implement in
whole or in part, the recommendations of the Master Plan Update prepared by
the Planning Board", on the 1st day of December, 1988, at 3:00 P.M. and 7:30
P.M., at the Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold, New York at which
time all interested persons will be heard.
The purpose of this proposed Local Law is as follows:
The proposed Local Law is comprised of a comprehensive set of Zoning
amendments to implement the Master Plan Update of 1985. The existing eight
zoning districts are replaced by sixteen new zoning districts, while the Affordable
Housing District (AHD) remains. In addition, amendments are made to the
text of the current Zoning Code relative to Site Plan Approval, Special Exceptions
and Landscaping, Screening a'nd Buffer Regulations. A new Zoning Map will
be simultaneously adopted reflecting the new Zoning Districts.
Copies of the proposed amendments are available in the Office of the Town
Clerk to any interested persons during business hours.
Copies have also been placed in the Floyd Memorial Library, Greenport,
The Southold Free Library, Sou~hold, the Cutchogue Free Library, Cutchogue,
the Mattituck Free Library, Mattituck, and the Fishers Island Free Library,
Fishers Island. Dated: November l, 1988. Judith T. Terry, Southold Town
Clerk." We have proof of publication in the Long Island Traveler, in the Suffolk
Times, and also by the Town .Clerk posted on 'her Bulletin Board. We have
correspondence from the Greenp0rt-Southold Chamber of Commerce, from a
Natalie Rafferty on Fishers Island, and commer~t from Martin Trent, that will
be made part of the record, and also from an attorney Cardinale and Cardinale
concerning a proposed zone change. That is again, the official reading of it.
What we're here for is to take comments on this proposal zone change and new
code for the Town of Southold. I would like at this time to ask anybody
Pg 19- LL Zoning
who wants to address, we're going to start on the left. We'll move over to
the middle, and over to the right,, to use the microphones up front here. Ask
you to give us your name and then make your statement to the Town Board.
This is a statement on the proposed Master Plan. It's not on a moratorium.
On the left, is there anyone here who would like to address the Town Board on
this proposed Local Law? In the back? Ed?
ED SIEGMANN: My name is Ed'Siegmann, and due to some unforeseen circumstances
tonight our attorney could not be here, Mr. Onufrak. He has given a statement
to read into the record and I have a copy here for all of the members of the
Board. To the Town Supervisor and Members of'the Southold Town Board.
From: Jospeh J. Onufrak, Esq. Representing the Committee Against Norris
Downzoning Organization (CANDO). The undertaking to develop a new master
plan for Southold dedicated us to a creative, commonsensical approach to future
development. Sound planning dictated that we examine, and learn from our
past, in an effort to maintain some control over our future. If you approve
the Master Plan with "Hamlet Density" zoning classification for the so-called
Norris Estates site at .New Suffolk Avenue, in our view, you have ignored your
commitment to good pla~nning. The zoning history of this site can be summarized
succinctly. .Fifteen years ago, without a public hearing, the Town Board changed
the site's' zoning to a classification which would admit condominium development.
CANDO challenged the zoning in a lawsuit, and the court's decision subsequently
upheld the authority of the Town Board to change the zoning.. It is i'mportant
to recall, however, through all the controversies that have since ensued,, that
the court, decision does not endorse and cannot be read to endorse, cohd0minium
development. Rather, the court upheld a governmental power. That governmental
power has not expired since then. It should be exercised to the com~iunity's
benefit now. Sound.p!~nning'required that you make an informed analysis
and re¥ie~w of this site, as well as any other under the Master Plan. At'~!num~ro~s-~
public for~ums, CANDO., the North Fork Environmental Council 'and various neigh-
borhood, and civic associations have testified as to the dangers which over-develop-
ment wiil'ibring to. the~ neighborhoods adjacent to the Norrris site~ You' have
heard of ~brackish wat.er intrusions in our wells, pervasive and growing worse.
You have hea'rd otherlcitizens report in detail on a problem alll of Mattituck
village iunderstands: l~raffic flow from New Suffolk Avenue on to Main Road
is alreaidyl~ catastr0phic~ MoreoVer, you have independent professional .opinions
suppor~in~l~these views presented in the public hearings on the Master Plan
and on ~h~e site development. Finally, your own planner, the draftsmen of the
Master. Plan, indicated~ to you the "HD" classification was inappropriate, if not
sheer folly, for this site when they drafted your master plan. You commissioned
your pl~an.~ers to recommend zoning changes on the basis of careful analysis
and soUnd~ planning. .They studied the site, and then "zoned" the Norris' site
for "2 ~clr~. residential".. The public record since then does not show a s!ngle
"fact" w~hiich justifies the Town Board's decision to allow "liD" zoning despite
the recolm.mendations of your planners. The public record and statemen'ts of
the Board! do reflect a "political" decision to restore more favorable zoning to
the Norlris site owners, disguised sloppily in ofter repeated bromides about
compliance wi~h the old court decision. Your problem, and:ours~ is that events
have ca~ug~nt ~p with the old zoning classification which you have been asked
to prese~'v~. The Norris site "stood still" since the early 1970's~ but the entire
peninsula around it did not. That community grew. Conjectures at the time
.of the Court decision have become facts, no longer opinions. Sadly, wells have
gone "salt" a~id our roads have begun to choke with traffic congestion. A
governmental decision .made by you now which ignores those facts to our detriment
is, in our view, arbitrary, capricious and legally actionable. Your constituents
know you are seeking a compromise with Richard Carr through consideration
of a density swap on his property at Bergen Avenue, and .we applaud the effort.
Pg 20- LL Zoning
But until and unless that accord is reached, we believe you cannot ignore the
error in zoning which your Master Plan presently tolerates. Change the zoning
to two-acre residential now, regardless of the status of the density swap, or
your passivity on this question may have disasterous consequences later. The
environmental history of the peninsula supports a decision to change the zoning,
and it will be the principled act of a board which ha_.: committec itself to an
honest rethinking of the Town development plan. It is reasonable to fear the
developer's court petition, and to respect his vie~s' of his property rights. But
you must also ke~,~p faith t~ith a whole community. That community speaks to
you now. Please declare in public the views that you voice in private. Rezone
the Norris site on the Master Plan for the public welfare and the fulfillmen~
of your neighbors' trust. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Is there anyone else on the left?
JOHN LADEMANN: John Lademann, Cutchogue. I'd like to know if there's
anything in the Master Plan that would force a home owner of creek front pro-
perty to plant any types of gr~ass, screening from the creek to his property.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Existing property? No. Absolutely not. Anyone else
on the left? Joe?
JOSEPH LIZEWSKI: I represent a small organization of businessmen. Southold
Citizens for Fair Government. Joe Lizewski, president of Citizens for Fair
Government. A group of businessmen in Town who are concerned with the Master
Plan, its implications, and basically Town government. We have had many,
many hearings,·l've been to quite a few, on this Master Plan. I feel its fair
to say. that at almost hearing, and I've seen hundreds of people at some of
them, but I've never seen a majority of the people in the room that I was in
for that Master Plan. It seems that it keeps on coming up, and it seems that
the word always comes back that it's going to be passed,it's going to be passed,
and yet the people in this room, and almost the entire ~ public in Southold Town,
don't want this Master Plan, and a lot of groups have [come up against it~ come
out to speak against. I'm sure that some were here tHis·afternoon. I'm sure
that there, will be. some later on. This Master Plan doesn,t seem to answer
an awful lot of the problems ·that we have in Southold qIown, and~ it doesn't
seem to look too far into the future in Southold Town. I can't dream how this
Board·can. telll.me how. to decide to pass·on this Master Plan withithe com~munity
solidly againstl it, and with so many objections, and .so' many flaw!s in it, and
think that they are going~to turn around, once' this Mast.er Plan, if it is passed,
change it after its passed. I. would like to know from anyone of .you,, when
you ever, ever took a~ law that you passed and turned, it down, and turned
it around, or itook it off the books. It's just preposte~-ous to even think that
you'r.e going to do that. What we have in!$outhold Tdwn now, and what this
Master Plan wi.ll conti0ue to promote is selqctive ~nforcment of a Io,t of laws that
are on this M~ster Pla)~ that don't belong iln there. The~e are a lot of individual
freedoms that tare being overlooked, other .than just the ~oning iproblem:s in
this Town. T~elling you where to put a dog house, Telling you where to put
your: boat trailer. Telling you what,trees ~to plant, and how to'F~lant them.
Havig.g the Bu,.Idlng Department tell you tliat you needi your fenc~ pain~ed and
how to paint: it., and if the color isn'~ rig:ht, they'll have it painted for you
· and put it on ~your tax assessment. There are an awful 'lot of th!ings that were
put onto this Master Plan that make me wonder if this is.:the right country.
I can't hardly i believe thal~ we czn continuely talk about passing ithis Ma~ter
Plan and going back with the record of thi:s Town and its selective enfoccement
of laws, and your're going to change these laws. Some of you may not be
here in two years to change these laws, if you think you're going to change
them now. That's part of our political process. A lot of these things, that
Pg 21- LL Zoning
we have discussed in the Master Plan 'look to our future. For example, if the
property values keep' on going up, I want to know who's going to join my volunteer
fire department twenty years from now. Who's going to pay the taxes for
volunteer fire department? What person is going to be able to live here and
work on my highway department? And how much are you going to have to
pay him if they can't buy a lot for less than $80,000. or a house for $200,000.?
How much affordable housing is there for these people? Where's the future
for the people who can give us services? Since when does a little electrician
or a little, plumber need a two or five acre lot for industry to put his truck
on? For a quarter of.a million dollars, how much is he going to charge me
for a service call when I need to get something fixed?. The future in this Master
Plan just doesn't seem to coincide with what we're used to living 'with. This
Master Plan is set our North Fork up, to be for the very, very rich and for
the few.of us who are al. ready here, and we could probably make it all' t~he
way through. The cost in our future with our dumps and our water are problems
unsolved, by this Master Plan. A lot of this Master Plan iS a.lread¥ gone bY
the wayside. We have our North Road being developed, surprisingly to me,
the businessmen in this.-Town haven't held any~ThatN3rth Road is ,very similar
to what happened on :.Sunrise Highway, to Patchogue,. 5ayville~. Ba~yshore, ,which
soon became .ghetto towns, as the North Road and the Sunri. se .Highway developed.
We have Plenty of s~ores. We don't seem to have a Io.t of.people~ A lot of develop-
ment, not:,~nough h~ousing room. A lot of these problems !that we h~ve in this
Town ar.e iiS..as~t .parts .,of our history. I don't know why j3~ople can'tl look in
the past,;.and!:!ook a. nd' see what's happened in other area_~,' and wh.y~they~re
not correct,d, by thi:s. The man who gets hit the most,of'.cOurse!,~ is the~ f~rmer.
Twenty ~ears' ago, t, he farmer who had a hundred acres 'couJd have ~s~bdivided
his la0d irito ~l~alf' a~re iots. He was told, oh, don'It worry.abou~ it.' They..went
to onel acr~ lots. He got halved againo Then he went to t~o ac.r:e lots. He.
got hal~ed'~ag:aJn. Then. some areas went to five acre IOtSo Take'. away a ~an's
value ,fo~-. ~ai~' he did,-just unbelievable. There's a lot,to this Master Plan~
I don't ~ea~ll¥, believe that this Master Plan can be passed ;int0~o and gone;~back
over. Ill y~u peopie ~'can not do it before, how can we believe thalt you're going
to do it af~{:er. The' fairness in this part of our society is that you .people
represent ;us. You should try to do what the people in this'.comm, unity rea.i~y
want, a~d= again, I'~ve. seen every meeting we've gone to, and if ~Jou took a
raise of .ha. ods ri.ght now, I doubt very much if you people could' :win, if you
put it up to a vote, I~,..~,~the amount of people that come to these things and
talk to you about what they are against. This is .fairly, in most instances.,
I would say a very peaceful apathetic community. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you.
RONNIE WACKER: My name's Ronnie Wacker. I'm representing the North Fork
Environmental Council, which has in this Town over a thousand families. ! want
to thank you for the opportunity to give our thoughts about the zoning amend-
ment that you'll soon have to vote on. We hope that you are truly listening
to us with open minds, because we're taking our role as concerned citizens
very seriously. How long do we feel as though we're putting on a dog and
pony act before you, in that you are momentar'ily amused in our presumption
for once the stage is cleared you go back to your predetermined positions.
This is a historic time in the life of this Town and possibly in your own lives.
Each of you must have decided before running for office that you could make
a difference. Otherwise why sacrifice your time and energyto tackle problems
of garbage disposal and street lines and other such fasinating subjects. This
is the time in which you can make a difference. I ask you to close your eyes
for a moment. See that way you'd like to see Southold Town. Anytime that
you are living it, think of the open space, the farms, and the vineyards
providing vistas to sothe the eye. Think of the bays, the creeks, ~i~.hmigratory
Pg 22 - LL Zoning
birds nesting on their shores, Clams and oysters for the taking. This is
the way it has been for so many years. Think of parks and bathing beaches
bicycles paths, jogging paths and green belt trails. This is what we've been
hoping the zoning amendment would give us. The means to develop the Town
for people living here now, with their lives vested in the area. Not a town
to placate developers who keep pushing to put a shopping center here· a sub-
division down the road· a condo there. Squeezing every bit of profit possible
and then moving on. Leaving Southold, like most of the towns to the west of
us. Congested. Nois~ ~ Gray streets· with litter flying about the curbs in
a strong, a few trees to bring relief on a hot day, and a little open space.
No creeks clean enough for fishing or swimming. No vistas. Nothing that makes
you think of country. The Master Plan adopted by thi~ Planning Board offered
a base for this kind of community. A well organized plan, where development
would neither overwhelm nor pop up in inappropriate places. Unfortunately
the zoning amendments do not carry out the intentions of the Master Plan.
Your own environmental impact, statement foresees" major irreversable..impact'~
with the conversion of more and half of farmland· housing, shopping malls,
and business centers, as permitted by the proposed amendments. [$: th. is what
we want? Would anybody in his right m!nd want ,this? You member.s ,of the
Town Board at this time have an opportunity to make a difference. We have
a few suggestions. One. Hire an envi',ronmental planner, who ca0 wor=k full
time on preparing a map and zoning ame.ndments. We. are .not ~dei:ji-ad~hcj t]3e
present planner. Va]erie Scopaz~ :is certainly capable of doing,.i~,i but:ish:e.i~s
intimidated by:.some 200 odd. application, i,n V.arious s~,ages' of'c0mpietio~ and
barely.a~ble.:to stagge,r threu, gh.t.he day. ~ .The Planning Bo~3r'.) is equally.m,'er'-
whelmed,. ~Wo.. Hir, e~. a :!awyer-,spe~iali[ing i~ tiland use. to design [~.~Jlan. '.ha:,'
we ·want· .,not,one We!get~ by- default.,': T.h~ee;: Put. together' an ~dviso:-.v committee
co, reposed of representatives of a.ll~sect.ors ofi~the comrhunity, f~om 'builders
who .have ~.~lonc £me stake n the town to fhose'farout enV. ironm~nta
Ir~clude me~chan.tSi~ andl..baymen', and::t.'he C'hamber of Commerce,. ~,;ho ~ve ::otc,.
~n todays news'paine:r: are. ~o. happ.er'.th'an, we are w.~h t. he outcome o-.a pro'e~'~'.
undertaken so hopefu'li;,.' "R~:~t first:tal~e ~13~ pressu '~ off th~_, ~la~'~'~ n~ I~i~ar~l.
· Decli~.'r,? ~: m(~r~l(;.-~Ul, (~n :'Iai().' sub. ct~v,~s~o.ns, for a y.ear~ ~ong.,len. plu~h t~:,~'om,plete
a zoning] mu.l? .,,,',¢1 ,'.mt'nl,l,;~cnls[ I:o ~.proLect the Town's .~n~Jr'iti~e .ch'~.~a, ct~,;' ~onomic
and i~,'ilJ.r,'Jl .'Jlvi~'~',J~nl~,~c £(~r t,le h~alth: safety and g~n~'~-~l ~e f~.r~ fO~,'~heJ
people,who live ~her[e. and ..want to co..':t hue to ve h~l~e, w,h,.ch, W~is theI maJndate
for the:~ Master' P.,ia'J,~. 'W~ are' countin¢, ~n you.
SUPERVISOR MU;RPHY: -[hank you Ronnie. Is there .anyone else .on the left?
John?
JOHN WICKHAM: My name is John Wicl~ham. I have occupied this position
a few times in the past. You'll recall my speaking on agriculture a few times,
specifically when we went to two acre zoning, saying there should be some
trade offs. The trade offs, really, have not been forthcoming. We have, and
we're grateful for it· farmland preservation, but we've preserved about two
hundred acres, more or less, which is somewhat between one and two percent,
and this is not very realistic. You're heard me say that it was probably a
mistake to tie the Master Plan to the implemetation. It wasn't done that way
in the past. Tonight we come to a moment of truth. The thing which we are
discussing,and having a hearing on tonight is not a Master Plan. It has a
few simple sentences, but there are approximately forty pages of
and that's where the discussion is. That's where the problems are. Not
the Master Plan, but with the implemetation which the Town.. Board insisted
had to go with it. I don't know where you got that, who gave you that advise,
but the moment of truth is here now, and for report of this afternoon, you
had no support, because of the implemetation. I've prepared a statement because
Pg 23 - LL Zoning
I like to have it in writing. As former Chairman of the Southold Town Planning
Board for 25 years, I certainly see the need for a Master Plan. The pressures
of development are undoubledly much greater now than when I was Chairman,
and it is impossible to expect the Town Board, Planning Board, and ZBa to
cope without the necessary framework. The document before us tonight, the
proposed Master Plan and its implementation, has the right, stated objectives,
in particular those seeking the preservation of agricultural and open space,
and a strong concern for water and its availability to residents of the Town.
But despite the importance of the Master Plan, and the five years that have
gone by since it was first drafted, it has serious shortcomings both of implemen-
tation and broad design. I won't go into those of implementation at .this time,
although some restrictions on agricultural businesses directly contradict the
objectives of .the Plan, because it is much more important to get the broad design
right first. I want to address the dey flaw in the Plan, and the one which
I am sure· is behind the concerns of almost~ all those who are here ·tonight,
and countless oth;'rs.who are not, and tha~ is t, he proposed M zones in areas
adjacent to our c~eeks and the bay. By all accounts these 'are our ·most environ-
mentally.important ,and fragile areas,, and those in which .water shortages and
salt intrusions will ifi~rs~-occur. F~ven more importantly, these areas a're the
visual pr.operty ~of .the..whole Town and those who. visit. I~ ~ma,kes no sense
to hand .~hem.over for' con,version to condominiums and. oth~er .forms ofl muliple
residences·. It i~ia~l~sO, grossly unfair to other property owners in the Town
who.are.~h, eld to tWo~-acre zoning. So what~.should the Towni do now? There
are basi(~a'lly three Cho ces: (1) Pass the Plan as is; (~2~ Dec are a mor, ator um
dur,ng wh,ch some.~r!spec~fEed changes En ~Lhe Plan may ~e.at,tempted:; and' (3)
Pass it 'immediately ,~.i:.ti~ b~nding riders. 'l,,' strongly recc nmer~d ~he':la~t ,ch'0ice
becaus~ 'lwe n~ed ,t ~"~ ,and' because ~mora!~riums are ~l~SwaY~;. m~ch le§s e~ective
than w.e,?!t~hink :the.;y'W,i~. be. I don't know ij.Ust how th,is w~llld6, can .be done,
and I. don~t.ki~ow W.h,_.,a~ your attorneys are .going to saly about .ito s:trongly
~rge 'tl'~'e. ,Town "Bo'ar,'d to enact the Plan as ,~s, but with'~th~se l~indinn rder~s-
(I) The iBoarcl..d,rec~ the Plann,ng~ and Z0r~ng Appeals B~rds!not accept any
applications, for developmen~ in any M zone~ nor any mult @le use, fon sx months
(2) T, he iBoa,-d ,mmec.,ately convene a panel'.iiof ~nt~res~ed ~'o~ e~s witch
a Iong-ie,-m st~ke in $outhold, to frame ~h~'. speci.fic M~ r nd t?,is is
nol a ~,laster Plan fha! we have bL~fore us.,,,But not its del men~tation
based on, this document.,but, lwithout provi.s~n for any mul: ~ce use
near cre~ks arid b, ays, w~th' .the report to 15~e presented to .the .Town Board. and
its attorneys ~y MaFc'h ,1, 1989. Note that it should be prep,~red by i~oterested
citiz:ens and .th~n given to attorneys and specialists fc~r refiriement, rather than
the ot~he~ .?ay ar0und,r I want to say that I've learned a gr~:a,t deal ,.being a
direct, o;r ~,b~ a chai, n~ 0f super markets upstate, that got to ha.~z'e;400 u,nits. I
was c'ha.~t~r: ,. , d!rec~Or,., .... served for 27 years I learned a great dea, ,from the
genera ma~nag~r 'He said never go to a attorney with a r, oi~lem You de
· .. , ~ . . _ P. . · . . cde
what sho.u, ld,,, I' be~, .'d°ne'. . .and. then go to the a~tOrney, and say,,~h. ~ is what I want
to do. M~e sulre ,t's okay. You make the~ decision. What II'm', say..ing to the
Town Boa.r;d is, gi~e it to a committee of interested Southoldl ,Town peOple and
they'll c0r~'~. .;, back.~vH:h. . s~meth ng that make~ sense, and ther~ ;give it to your
attorney.~o..: m~'ke i~t al work, and this is tl~e way it shoul~l, b;e, and ~l~is is
the way' it, i, has not l:Jeen. There'.s a third .point. The Town, :B;oard immediately
set up seli~ct ¢0mmit.~ees to review the implementing provisions of the :Plan.
It is clear in Io0kin~ over those sections dealing with agriculture that, there
.has b~e~n very little linput from knowledgeab~le people, and I',assume tl~e same
is tru,e. :fol.,other areas too. In conclusio0,1~he Town needs a plan and needs
it now. ,With the Removal of the provisioo:for M zone areas aFound our creeks
and bays, .and, with a.~st, ronger Master Planl.;,framework, as opposed to ,detailed
implementaiion, and ~Wiitl~ greater cltizen i~p,~t, this document Will hel'.p,' Southold
Town pursue wha[,t~l~e ~reat majority of L~S ihave been trying tO keep !for many
Pg 24 - LL Zoning
years. Water is, in fact, the key resource in the Town of Southold, both salt
and fresh water, and is far more important than the land. To see agriculture
and in fact all present property owners largely restricted to two-acre zoning,
ostensibly because of limited water, and then to grant multiple-use districts
greater density than they were given twenty years ago, is not only unthinkable,
but is clearly indefensible in court. I would like to say, I. discussed this problem
with may attorney this morning, after spending about five hours reading over
the fine print of the document we have before us today, and he said clearly
this is actionably, and I'm not one to throw my weight around, but if the Town
Board were to pass this as is, the implementation as is, I assure you there
would grave consequences. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Is there anyone else on the left, in the back?
LLOYD TERRY: My name is Lloyd Terry. I'm a farmer from Orient, and I
want it clearly understood that I represent probably only my own thoughts.
Then, again, probably in a larger sense, a lot of the farmers feelings in the
area. When farming was really tough in 1956, following the year of 70 cent
potatoes, and farmers didn't know which way to turn, or what crops to plant.
Some of the bigger farmers went out of business. It was sad. The same thing
is happenir)g all over the country. In seven years, according.to the statistics,
we lost a million t~armers. You don't ~have to be a village scholar to figure
that in a few more years, we may face some Of it. I'm not trying to bel dramatic.
I'm just telling you the wa~y it appears' to me. In 1956 I could have fiied a map
for half acre. zoning.~ My ~thinking at the time was thai~ SomebOdy is aiways
going to ask~to do ........ ;and by changing our schedule, andiplanting differant
crops~ .we started! to,corne.~up the hill., a lil~t[e, and then came ~onii3g 'to' one
acre. Now, as it's been. p~e¥ious~ly ~s~:atedj by that time ~he ]a'~/'s passed the
number of lots for .sale on;i,my farm. 'iBut ~e~continuedito~farm, 'again,. because
we t'hought it was ~ righ'~ thing to.~do~ and .somehow: we'd g~t a~ong, and
we did.'l w~t into ~eb~ike a,10t..o~others.. . When I fi~she~farmi0g~.in ~975,
I was $137,000.0.0. in~.the ~h~le. '1 filed'~for a ~inor subdivi a~nd in,.ord~r
to have t~at'~accep~ed, I ~a,. ~, . .?~ , ' '.. :' '. ~h ~nt
or sales,: WOUld ))(' ;; II, ih(')," 5,,JI),3,'.
have ~v.er.'dent,. I ~'i!q;li(~(] Ior ~
of ens~fficie~t I~:~1(I. Nl~w
an.' ::=... ,"., .. · I~',;y"of room. was
that pa~t:i~ul~r time:~ a ~holce"be~ween. ea, ~ so
I choose ~o eat aOd.':SUpport ;my .fam:il~..N~w, ~when ~t ~as atlge'd ~o two ac1'95
you've ~e~uc~d ' ' '* ' ' ' ' '~ '
the ~1~'~0 a. quarter. ,No~, f anyone o Lhs :roo~,~ th~nks it's
fa r t~e;way,the Town ~as trea~ed; th~ ,farmer, ,that~s'~feec ~d s ~ppor~ecl ~.1~ 5 '
· ' :~ ': ] ' '~' i I' ::.' ':"":'
Town, and pa'd for, ~,alf',{he sc~oal. ...... ta~e~,.I
it. Thp~s all.. Now ~We:h~ped to.farm m,~h~ ~uture, ~LIt ~l~e ~a¥ d~ls .t,,aster
Plan is set up, that .[~f ~o~ looked ..a~ ret. d..signa.ed m~[3, ~ou ~1 f. nc. tn,.~ on
one off my smal,I farm~i, I'ni l)',-()l.)iil.)iy' i~ li,~e ~b~;'five ac~e~.. Where is t~,e,:young
fellow ,tOday going le l.,t~y I,~(I ~ith ~hi~?;~b'~igi~, i~dea"of~big act~a~e., ,a~d will
I do~t thm.~ so. We ~e oslng o~r ~o~o~r ~eneratmn whet.~er ,you ~e
or not. li['~;.going to ~5~ ~ i)l~,c~:'~d~- ~l~?'{~'~flueh~ and'th~ el~er'l~; ~o
well be ab;!e,to h~e, or so~ebocly w~t,.
hack ~ an~mbre, an~J ~ s~te of a the rh~orc abO~t':tb~ oan'n~n~ ah'd sa ' g
th~s aod~ s~v~ng that., and that's amusing
the farm it comes frbm the lips of someone. .who has:n~er b~e~ ~n a=;~a'm,' or
connected wi~h it. I.t.'s a lot of'h~g~;~s~i~~ and ~ say that you've got some common
sense. It's a matter of morals. [ bel~e~.in li~ing and let live. I don"~ ride
down the road and see what I think ib'w¥6ng with somebody else's property
Pg 25 - LL Zoning .... -, -i: :' .. ' :. :t,..., ,.
and I don't want anybody to tell me what to do. Now I think it's sad that
we can't do what our forefathers did, and if we have to sell a small piece of
farm that will leave most of our farm to be in a farming stage. I can't see
why it can't be done. But, no, we've got to be two acres, we've got to be
five acres, and I just don't know where we're going to wind up. Now I think
that all your planning, probably in good faith, has done more to expedite the
demise of the farmer in this particular area, because a lot of them saw the
handwriting on the wall. It was map the farmer-get out. I was stupid. I kept
on farming. Now I'm being penalized for farming. My children help me. make
a living. I can not give them an acre of land to build a house on, and anybody
that can't live on an acre of. land has got to have a lot of money. I'm telling
you that. We need to .go back to common basics and common sense, or you'll
lose a lot of the young blood that's going to fill this old man's shoes. Thank
you very much.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else in the rear?
MAL NEVEL: My name is Mai Nevel. I'm from Shelter Island. I'm a foreigner
over t-lmre. Hairlegger. I hope I don't take up too much of your time. We're
connected by one thing, and that's the Peconic Bay, and I traveled accross
there tonight, just to come over here and speak to the Town Board and the
people of Southold, I will .be speaking for the Peconic Bay Task Force, which
I'm a member of. I think it's a good organization. I'm also the former supervisor
of the Town of Shelter Island. I've been the Baymen's President over on Shelter
Island for over 20 years. One of the happiest times of my life, I worked for
Smith Neil Company, one of the biggest fishing industries of the world out
of Greenport, and met a lot of people over there. Met a lot of friends. It's
sad for me to come accross the ferry nowadays and look at G~eenport. it's
no longer the fishing town it was. As a person from Shelter Island, I think
Greenport is.on the skids, way dewnhill. It's just a shame to see all the docks
falling in. the water, and I'm sorry to say, I-hate to see the condomi.niums coming
up in thei'r place. I'd like to read a prepared statement from the Peconic Bay
Task Force. Ladies and gentlemen of the Southold Town Board. As you know,
many, many people depend.on the benefits the bays and the creeks in the Peconic
Bay Estuary have provided., food, recreation, livelihoods, tourist attraction.
But as .you also know, the Peconic estuary is in crisis. And it is imperative
that the. public officials of the Towns who share the resources do all in their
power to protect the estuary from further pollution. This means enacting
legislation and amending zoning to assure that all current and futur~ development
does not further degrade the surface waters. I would lik~ to remind you that
as a result of the State of the I~ay Conference, public offici,als on all levels
formally recognized tl~e significance of the Peconic Estuary system to! the economy
and quality of life of ithe people on eastern Long Island, and also'it~ regional
and national, importance. Our county, state, federal and most local officials'
have also recognized that while the Brown Tide study is not yet complete, there
is enough sceintific evidence from the completed 208 Study, and thd studies
of the Chesapeake Bay estuary system to prove that over-developmer~t of a.n
estuary,s shoreline can result in the demise of the estuary. It is time that
all local officials recognize these findings and act accordingly. Right now,
in the western part of the Peconic system, in Reeves and Flanders Bays, the
polluted waters have curtailed swimming and fishing. GreatIPeconic is now
suffering similar sympltons, two creeks in Southold Town have already been
closed to shellfishing,:and it is just a matter of time before beach closing will
follow if we continue on the present path to destruction of our natural resources.
You have only to study the. history of Long Island Sound to understand that
the pollution will continue to dr.ft from west to east. The Sound is~a deep
Pg 26 ILL Zoning
water system with good flushing capabilities. The Peconic system is shallow,
with m'ini~um ability to flush out pollution. The Peconics cannot absorb any
more pollution. The estuary is already overstressed. I am here tonight because
the Peconic Bay Task Force has resolved to speak out on any plans and proiects
that may further adversely affect the Estuary. It is my turn to represent
the Task Force and present the following comments on the Southold Town proposed
zoning amendments. 1. The proposed marine zoning amendments do not protect
the coastal waters. 2. The proposed shoreline zoning will most certainly inflict
further damage to the estuary unless more stringent controls are included.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Southold Town Board, you have much work before
you if you are sincere in you resolution to help restore '..the Peconic Estuary
to good health. Members of the Peconic Bay Task Force are availal:le to help
you develop proper zoning for Southold Town's shore|ine so that you can carry
out your resolve to protect our most valuable east end resource. Thank you,
and please call on our experts for help. I'd like to call on Southold when Shelter
Island comes around to getting a Master Plan, because we don't have any, to
come over and speak on our behalf. I think we are joined as east end tow.ns
and we should do. whatever we can to try to help the Peconic Bay.. ~t's in'
al, ire '.straits. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR SUPERVISOR: Thank you, Mel, and I do think the two towns
have always worked.very well together. Anyone. in the middle, like to address
the Town Board? In the back?
VILMA. MARSTON: I'm Vilma Marston, president of Water, ' Land and Wildlife
Protection Group. I will mention the wortd moratorium, but I mention it in terms
of dissatisfaction with the Master Plan. That is more in the way we can express
ourselves~ We would, like to tl~ink and hope that we are.. having input in the
democratic process, on. deciding.~an important issue pertaining to our lives in
one, Qif the .most beautiful areas in the Northeast, a land so fragile and lovely
that has given us its. nourishment, as the farmer so amply put it, its wildlife,
its clean beaches, i.ts wildlife, shellfish and no longer.existing fish, its clean
wa.ter, its dreamy .pace and recreation. We want to preserve' for the future
generations that wl~ich we have enjoyed. We realize that. t.h~..Town Roard ihas
worked to keep up ,their work load and still, do right by the' Master Plan..But
we s~ill think it needs, a great deal of work. We, the Water~iLand~ Wildlife
Protection Group is asking for.a one year moratorium to.straighten out certain
specific and pertinent issues with regard to the Master Pla~'~ AIth~ugbi
North. Fork papers this week. quo~ed that the to:wn hall had ~'eceived app.r~ximately
98 ~to 100.clipo~ts concerning a moratorium or dissatisfactionll~ith the!MaC,er
Plan, if you i.nt.erpr, et moratorium to mean that. We woul~d like, ,to go on, pul.blic
record that this.~pas~ summer in. addition.to our organization.of c~ose to i0!~,
plus we went~ on, record to tl~e Town Board requesti.~g a mor, a..t~orium,, which'
letter was also.published in the Suffolk Times. We, also, p,re~ented to
Plann ng Board with a' letter to tl~e Town Board, a petition wlith 16.5 p~us s~gna-
tures regarding ithe~.proposed building surrounding R~chmon~l Creek and~o~her
creeks. Th,s s supposedly a !OW dens~;ty aFea ;and an
there w be eve · 1{, ~omes su:rround~ng f.h s frag e cree~, whe:re trri,s £a~mer
can't even get one acre for h s son. There wi be 10~ homes~ ha:l'f acre. denslt,es
some open space~ place for boat ramps. The Master Plan .dc~e~snt ~dd~e_s [~h]s.
The zoning sa,,vs, '!AC", agricultural and Iow density areas,. Now, who wi;l]
occupy these;,bo,.mes? W~II ~t be people from around here?. ~l~e de.v. elo, p~ng.~:om-
pany ;fo~r tl~ !i~0i~theast part of the creek, an At antic Cty d;~Ve oping ~or~l~ny.
The owners al~e .from A~t ant!c C~ty. Specu ators. During the~ ~o.rks, a pro~bosed
approxilma~ely,..801cluster homes in another .adjacent agricultural area, a clu~ster
of appr0x.matey 110 houses. All zoned agricultural. All th.ese houses wil~l
surround a fragile creek which is a migratory and resting route for water and
Pg 27 - LL Zoning
land birds, afeeding ~round for endangered species, the least tern, osprey
and plover and a nesting ground for the tern and plover. There are signs
there by Nature Conservancy, and also with the DEC. Some of the subdivisions
have been approved, others have not. We demand it ....... attended a scoping
session, and we are awaiting an environmental impact statement on the northeast
part of creek. They presented a small impact statement, which was thrown
out. We're still waiting for a new one. Furthermore, we want to protect our
acquifer from the runoff that will be the result of these homes. Buffer zones
in most cases are ignored especially in dense housing developments. We're
not going to tell people, keep this place wild, because it will absorb pollutants.
They're just going to mow it down. They're going to have housing associations,
and they're going to plant whatever they want to plant. You can see it already
happening along the 'creeks, which have become polluted. We would,like to
add!'.'that Richmond Creek is one of the only shellfish, state cert fied~ she'lilfish
creek, and I saw fishermen today trying to fish, take out clams and he couldn't
find!.any. Getting wor~ied; ' We hope that with land acquisition we can negotiate
with~ the developers to'pu~c~hase the waterfront land, which i.nlcidentally was
created by the. developers! Without a permit a number of years~ ago.. And ir~
thiS, I want i,s'ay thank!:¥oa' to Mr. Wickham. I found his .name in the t~ile.
In 1972, he Wa:s fighting, l~h;e developers. They had dredged the creek illegally,
and. I found ~orre:spon~lan~ from him. He discovered it. .i~ 11977, we put
a stop to One of the developments. Now they sold to other '~spe, culators and
they,'re starting to, w~t.h~ th:e~r subdzws~ons. Imagine creating waterfront property
by f. lood.ng I~nd. Th~s. Es' ;what developers have done. Dr~dg,ng and .deep
scooping illeg~l'ly. Oh'~ all '.he meant to build on this land, "on.. liltt~le half acre
zonings, with Is0me oPen, sP~:e. We're allowing it in agricultural zoning, l'd
also like .to add we. ate' not .only interested in Richmond Creek, but the entire
North-For'k'.w~.th ~ts frag,~le creeks, rEch farmland and wood,s, and a once produc.ng
bay. ReCe:n~]~y. severaii!,c, re~?l~s.. ~' were declared critical environmental areas. In
fac~ this...sun~rner our.,, g~oup. , . was instrumenta.. .in getting about: . 100 peOple, here
to !have I~ic.hmond C~ig~k'~d~clared cr~t~cial enwronmental area, The. Master Plan
had .alread~ .l~en ~r0cei~Se~l before the know~edge of critici~l'a.reas were evident.
Back to ~he f~ct. ',W~' ~equire time to correct the zoning. ~e need timei.to
consider land~. nve~tigat on' and acquistion. We need .tithe :~ insPect °Ur~,l.~and
surround.rig the cr, eek~ for .nd~an art. facts. I nc~dently I've spoken to. the~ indian
Museum and ,they s~¥ ~che~ are loads of ~ndian artefacts around.the creek' areas.
anc~ ~n one case, th~ developers already gone .nto the wetlands to try to prove
whether therei~were.or ino~;'iand we had a violation issued, and they neve~
put the w~t:lands b~k in order, and they did destroy somel Of. the indian artifacts.
That's on ~he' R~chniond Sl~Ores project. How can we feel sorry .for Certain
developers, rSt~dy the: fil.~s and you will see how they dredged creeks illegally,-
destroyed indEan art~acts by going into the wetlands. Furthermore, .the~, cer-
tainly are not' ~:reatir~g ~job~ras the files will show that man,.of, the~ 'li~/e:out
of state and' wii~l us~ .0ut 0{f the state developers~ So are tl~ese peoplel, coming
here? Iti',isn't: that W~ lwa.n.,tl to keep people out~ It's that ~he who,le t~hing~ is
artificially c~ea:~ed ~;~o~.r expense° Can we say that they care for the land?
I say,no. Our ~.'._sr.,:3[,on .~a~'.'.,no. In many cases nvestmentiwas on¥ specula-
tEve. Study 'th~..~'..c~zp~.:,nd ~.~.:-~ Shores and R~chmond Cree~'. F~arms f. les~ These
files are ~hick. Turhiover, land, all of it done for speculative purpose. Yes.
the~ may be entitle~l to; thils land, because they bought it.. But God ,aind .nature
.own the land. That Wino owns it, not the speculators. And we as citizens
have a right ~o prote~t.:thi~ land, our heritage, our health, odr wildl!if, e, our
water, our peace, o~r .roads through congestion, all of which rights a~e written
into the New York AcqUisition Quality Bond Review Act. Parti0f the law. We
have rights helrtg. We ~.aV, e'the right to protect the water i,and~:, migra,tory route
nesting g~-oun, ds for 'en~ar~ered species, to protect the shell~f:i~'h, thel iive~ihood
Pg 28 - LL Zoning
of fisherman and farmers, and more, and in so doing we will be protecting
the Greater Peconic Bay. Yes, we feel that by the use of the democratic process,
which you are now offering us, that we should imput into, that you will consider
our ideas and our thoughts, and we hope, we hope there will be some move
in the right direction and perhaps a year's moratorium might help us get the
plan in order, Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else in the middle? Jeanne?
JEANNE MARRINER: Thank you. Once again I appear before you and ~ hope
you will listen carefully. I'm Jeanne Marriner, from Mattituck and I'm speaking
as a private citizen. Speaking.of the Town of Southold~ Albertson Case~ Esq.,
Southold Town Clerk, in 1876 said, "This pleasant arm of land, this jewel, which
nature has made so lovely in its settin, so precious in its valuable qualities
of soil and climate and coastal water. . Grand old Southold." One hundred .years
laterr in 1976, South01d Town was still a pleasant arm of .,land .as it celebrated
the Country's Bicentennial. 1976 was also the year that a job promotion made
it necessary 'for my family to leave Southold for a few Years. When we. returned
the pleasant arm of land Was still pleasant, but changes were evident. Eyeryone
was concerned about the future of the Town and the M~s~e~ Pan ~as the topic
of the day. The Town had engaged 'the services of pl~n~i~g .experts to ~dev~op
a viab.e plan for ~oUthold. To assist t~e planners, the .~ague of ~omar~ ,Vo~ers
and the Gre~nport~/Southold Chamber o~ Commerce took~ ~,rve~s. These 'scie0~fic
samplings i~dicated that ~esidents, business people, seco~ home.o~n~rs~an~
tourists ~an~ed to p~otect and pressere agriculture, fishi~O a~nd ~he ~nv~iron~ental
quality of life~ wh~.~formed the basi~s of t~e.~t~urist ~cO~. Town. ~ffi~i~.~s~
had'a real ~h~ enge~ to harness development, a~d create a ~Hveable ~wn
a sound economic b'a'e wi[h h0usr ng and 'ecr~al ona opportu lt~e ~o~
. . . . ..... .
and w th respect ~or"t ae un quo aatu'a 'esou 'ce~ w a ch ~a:Re~ the l~w~n So alt.tact ye
The .e~pe~t~ ~n Rl~n0~ng came up w~Lh a set of goals a~d a natural re:ioof:cs
inven'to'ry~h~ch w~'e to be the basis for zoning legislation and the.dCvlgomenz
map." The ,Ma':stet ~l~n, thc document which ~¢ticulaled the ~esign ~o,' t;~e ";'o'~n.
was bas.ed ;6n, p'rote~t'.ing qnd pr~eser<'ing th~ rura~.'~,arilim6 character ,]f
town;'., cre:ati~g. .. ... a,. Var:iety.. .. of t~ousing .opportunities for all aqes_ and i~co~e.s..
encouragi~g..a~ricgJ.~g, re, f[shi'ng 'ano tourism, protracting ~he li~;~ited
of gro~d wa~eF,, ~hd the q'ua'li~y of the coasta~ wa'Ler. 't-he. Plan also st~'~ssed
the need'.~or'cQntdo;lled growth ~n kee~ing with,fragile .:arryin caf;ac.it;es ,'~
South01'd ToW~,: t~i:~ 'pleasant arm of land. It also indica~6d that it was ;"rF. ortant
to protect local businesses as ~ell as beaches, wood ands, and v,.aJ, er~,.ays
contribute to the qu~iity of li~e' that has made ,~he To¥~n ~ti~l'~ac~iv[. to i:ourists.
as well as the people who live here. It says a:ll 1his. ~ra ~he:,.~:~aster 'P'.~n ~ocument.
I read il. all when I ~eturned. I ~'~as en'thused tha~ our To~n .:~ficial~
been so f~r-sighted a'nd thoughful,' and then'c~me the ~oni~ rr.aR a~pc amendments
which were supposedl'to adva'~ce the goals o~ Lhe ~S.~aste,- PI~;":. '~6w other' Towns
have managed' to set goals for o,'derly g,-owth alqd ac;lale~e' ~ese goq~s.. East
Ilampton and Garden .C~ty are two Long~ Islam~,~ca~e~.~n, p~.~E. T~e,;~ow,~s
I,ved. ~r~ Connect~cuL and. ~iassachu~se~s ~el"~ m~ure tow~,s t~at b~d..been
planned and had ~]r(~w,n (]racefuil),', mainlaini.ng [he~r c,.~al~t~ o[ li,~e ,~",d
taxes, and ~t ~s, lad~es and gentlemen, p knowp.fac.t " '
taxes~'as' well a~S.]a~ use under cohtroi. ~ s~e~aecl to me that if o~he%
could~,pl.a.n ~,r.,~th~ Southold could, 'too. D.ur.~g the summel' cf 19q6,,
· of th,. ,. .- ,:, , ,,,,,i, to, dep . and
use ~ ~i",~ .. · ~-~ '~, ;~n:. ~ ~d,,,' d~',','Ol'~",' ;~ .,"ressu;e n the,'Fa~ OE 1986,
the I.~.~:,.~,. oi ~,'~.~,,~ '..~. r~ '~r<...,,'.nl~'d ,: :,-~<:. ~.m based on this book
SouthOld 2000, or Wh'a~ ..]o ~'. w,,nl .~m.- ~.~, ;,'> ~ike in the year 2000?. ~e invited
Town officials, dha~b~rs of com'merc~'; c~'vic leaders and the medie, ato take
part in a discussi0n'~fter a presentation of th~:ideas for land use planning
Pg 31 - LL Zoning ,
before last summer, when the envir~.)'fii~i~tilS~"'~P~t~y much a national high
priority for the whole country. I think tho~e two points could be changed.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else in the middle would like to
say something to the Town Board? Anyone over here on the right like to speak?
Sir?
JAMES DILL: My name is James Dill, and I come from probably, somebody
people have never heard of it, the town of New Suffolk. We call it the gem
of Southold, but there's a point in the Master Plan, that I was amazed to see
when I saw the maps in the Suffolk Times. New Suffolk is a historic village,
as you know. There's a street that goes along the water called Jackson Street,
that goes from West Creek, which is the west boundary of New Suffolk, to
the public beach, which is the east boundary. That has been designated RR.
It is all private homes, and RR, as I gather from the paper, means that it
can.have hotels, motels, marinas, etc. Now this is right on Peconic Bay over-
looking Robins Island. It is all private homes, some of. which are quite historical.
One of the old Tuthill homes is on this street. All private homes and on fairly
good Pieces of property. There's a. lovely beach. Now: many people tonight
have spok.en about Peconic Bay. They've spoken about' cree'ks, yes, but, they've
spoken pollution in Peconci .Bay. You are taking the ~laster.'Plan~ the Master
Plan is taking strictly' residential area of nice homes many of~ that have been
there for years and ,/ears, and saying that can be hotels, motels, you name
it. I can .not see t!~.e logic of taking that one little piece, you go across 'West
Creek, in. the town of Cutchogue, and it's R40. Why I don'~ know, what they've
got that;~welhavenft. It gets awful close to Mattituck; that's the problem, Thank
you very much.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else on the right like to address
the Town Board? Sir?
TOM LOWRY: My name is Tom Lowry. Like Mr. Dill, I'm from New Suffolk,
too. I've had a hell of a good time here tonight, because I've been applauding
everyone, whether I agree or not. I have been heard at, I guess most of these
Master Plan meetings, and I've yelled. I've cajoled. I've argued. I've tried
to be rational , and none of it has helped. One thing, however, I think
that this evening has made me aware of, is that nobody is happy with the way
things are now. For God sake's, get off your duff and do something quick.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Tom. Anyone else on the right?
WES RUROEDE: My name is Wes Ruroede. I'm from Greenport. To supplermnt
what the gentleman just said, therefs got to be a reason for this complicency
by the Town Board. Would anyone on the Town Board care to correct me?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Wes, this is a hearing for you to make comments to
the Town Board.
WES RUROEDE: This is an emotional issue. There are a lot of us who are
very concerned. More so than you can imagine. What I take by it, I'm an
engineer, I understand how things work. I don't understand politics, but
regardless of that, my attitude regarding this, I'm going to put it right on
the table. I'm not going to beat around the bush. The reason that I see that
things going to hell around here as quickly as they are. I sense something
to do with, it's a type of organized crime. Not the type of Luciano, and his
brother Guido. This is serious. This is' people we've elected, not doing quite
the job we expected of them, when we elected them. This is power, influence,
and above greed involved in this. What can we do about it? We asked Mr.
Pg 32 - LL Zoning
Schondebare this afternoon, the legality of a moratorium, we could do that,
uphold it, and finally agreed the Town environment was .good enough for us
'to stand up for, and take- stand behind in the court. We love our environment.
Why can't we join up. Hire the right people. Specialists. The right lawyers.
People who are in tune with saving an area. Not working with the powers around
it to destroy for their selves. The dollar rules,we all know that. The environment
has come behind economics for the last time. It's time for us to stand up and
environmentalists, and just worry about the dollar. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else on the right like to address the Town
Board? Anyone on the right? Benjy?
BENJAMIN SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Frank. My name is Benjamin Schwartz,
here tonight as an individual, that cares deeply for Southold. I don't feet alone.
I represent myself. I have somewhat an expertise in land use law. In developing
expe[tise, and therefor maybe I'll be able to speak for some others, too. including
the Town Board. The amendment of the Zoning Ordinances is not easy, but
it's worth it. We are tonight discussing the zoning ordinance, the amendment
of th.e zoning, ordinances is not all that different from inactment of one originally,
it's a process .which should be taken, very seriously. In order to approach
it correctly I'd like to review as quickly as I can, some of the basics of the
law in this area. The zoning power:of the Town Board maybe the single., most
important power of the local Southol,d Town government. It's delegated ~o
the Town by ~he State, with some cQ~ditions. The first conditions of the zoning
po~r is that t'he exercise the zoning power, which is the enactment or the
amendment .of the zoning ordinaces form of exercising the z.oning power, must
be ¢onsi'~t'entwith the comprehensive plan. Those words consistent wi,th a compre-
hensive plan have been a problem for lawyers since before zoning aro,und~. The
first zoning o~dinances.were requi.red to. be consitent with th~.',c0mpi'ehen?ve
plan. The reason this is a prolslem, is there where no plans. The zoi~i~g
ordinances came first. The plans came ~ater. In some cases, t,he plan ne~er
showed up yet, We're stll waitin.g~. So the zoning power must! be consistent
with c~mPrehe:nsive, plan. ~lso, it must be ex~rcised in the ~[~1~ .i~terest.
The public interest in this ~ase, .inClude5 the economic base of' ~he ~rown.' The
ethics of the ~own, the private ~right.s o.f the i~divi~du~ls in' tli;~e'iT°!Wn, ~h~e inner
structure of the Town, th~ roads, ;wate~ supply, sewer, handl!~g capabjl!t.es
recreation pro~vided~ and other :pub:lc facilities.' Also, the cu~l~ral character
of the Town a~d I'd just I ke to s.t0p, here to note, 'that env.~oh:~ent ~s npt
only natural environment, the cult,u'ral and natura! environmer)l~ are inseparable.
In fact,in law, and~in the law the cultural envilror!ment is one of'the basi,s of
which zoning can be:exercised. I~ terms of South~ld, I've been an ind~Nidual
who has come and go. ne from South01d, 'ye stayed here, I ',m~d here When
I graduated 'f~om h~gh school, I had ved here n~the. sl~mmers prewousy
I lived .here .~ couple, of yea~s yeai'~'rdun~l, b~t then I was, I" f~t it was my
best interest to leave, to find an e~_t~cation and gain some e×per, ier~ce. I. hope
to return her~ per, manently. I'm ~till riot sure ' ! be aiole to' ~16 tl~a't~ ~
my eyes, when I think of the cultural character of Sour, hold, ~ ~hink ~that.' there
two. When I come here in the summer, I'm in one place c~lturally, soGi~a,!ly.
In the winter..it's qu!te a differant,place. The'differance is primarily, I ~think,
population density, but also, it's something in .whi;ch it .is very hard to p.ut
into words,, called community respec, t, pe.ople's attltude.si to~,ards each o~th~r,
etc. These a,~e very difficu'lt th:ings. I said, tO amend .the. zor)i~0g ordina~nce
is not easy, .but there are important things. It's ~0rth it. ~lso, tl~e~lasit thin~,
that the pubic interest, it's'important to know about the public intere,st~ lis
that it doesn't really put to much value on short term profit. Unfortunately,
a lot of the developmental proposals .which at this point are still all init~al:ly
by business and pri~ate individuals and they're ... and actually its coming
from the Town government, although that's a possiability. So short term profit
Pg 29 - LL Zoning
found in the book, "Toward Eden". The presentation detailed how one town
became frightened by what was happening in neighboring areas and how the
Town leaders were determined to find out if there was a way the town could
grow and still preserve a desirable quality of life. The Mayor of this town
said. "1 want this town to be a pleasant place for the people who live here,
with adequate green openspaces, public access to our beautiful waterways,
wooodlands and parks, with paths for walking and bicycling. I want a variety
of housing accessible to all income groups, and I want to keep the taxes under
control so people can afford to live here." All the Town officials agreed that
they wanted to stem random development and sprawl and have a human-sized
town. At the Mayor's.ffequest, the Town Attorney took courses in land use
regulation and planning law, and the Town hired an ecological planner, and
allocated enough funds to take the Town through to a. good plan. The ecological
study became the base for the Master Plan, the official 'maps, the zoriing law
and the sub-divisi'on .law. It took time to set up the environmental guidelines
and there ~vere some law suits brought by developers, but the court found
that the Town had ac=ted in.good faith for the good of the townspeople and
dismissed the suits. Wh.'at emerged finally was legislative programl for environ-
mental !protection and' P~anning, and legally defensible zoning policy and law
based· On o'bjective.sc]~n'.tific data, not personal prejudices-and :attitude.: The
program sati'sfied';b~)th~ economic and envionmental interests. How to do this
is all detailed, and .l'~elmentioned this before, in Towa'~d Eden by Arthur Palmer,
available in !iht.aries ahd .from the publisher. This boor is factual and proves
that sound, tbwn; planR'i'n9 is not impossible. ~t just requires· the com~nit~ent
of all town officials. An editorial in one of our local .papers urge.d the .Southold
Town oYfic~i'als to:folloW the example set forth in the beok; and the members
of SouthoId 2000, the. NFEC, the League of Women Voters?and other:i0r~aniza-
tions ahd concerned citizens have spent the past 2 years trying to ge~ the
Town o~fficials to·do this, ..to take time out, to recognize that we all have a
real stal~e; ir~ the Town and that there are ways of adVancihg the very. commendable
goals of ~he 'Mas~ter P~lan that will hold up in court and w'il;I insure that Sou~hold
will stilil'be pleasant i.h th~ year 2000 and beyond. Ir'is n0;~ too late:!:t.'o pause,
to regroup, ahd'. to' ;d'o wha~ has to be done.to protect ithe. i!Tbwn from:!ithe'sprawl
to the west... Much :lip seJ~ice has been given by Town offi~a,ls about' the desire
to preserve our.rur~a~mar.i.,time character. In fact, not to01. I~ng ago,;:~iwhen
I think, you!il remember this, Jean, the Town Board adop~l, ~ To~vni.::Son9
called, "Grand OId.,S0uthoid", that says, "the gem of Long !sland's North Fork,
Grand Old:: Southold; :Preserve it we must, yes, preserve it we must.:" Now
is the time, ladies 'and 9en:tlemen, put your money where your mouth' ~is. Hire
the experts and come up With a I egistlative program for e~virnomental protect
and planning; that ~ill keep our taxes and our Town from going out of control.
Declare a 'moratorium. Db 'whatever is legally necessary. Above a'll, vote no
on the zoning map a. nd a~m~ndments. I understand that legaily if you pass
it, it will be'very d'ifficul~!,to undo it. Make sure that 'you; .~.11 of yog.~ go down
in history .as., the public official who preserved, not destroyed, grand:,oid Southold
Town. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPY: Thank you, Jeanne. Anyone else in the middle like
to address? Joe?
JOE TOWNSEND: I'm Joe Townsend. Hopefully I'll be brief. I probably will
be because I haven't prepared anything. I'm a member of Southold/2000, and
I belong to the North Fork Environmental Council, but I'm here to urge you
to pass this, both the plan and the map, because I feel that there are significant
gains that are made during the four or five that we have worked on this plan.
We live in a very inperfect world, and there are parts of ~he zoning map, that
I can take exception to. Obviously there are parts that many of you take exception
Pg 30 - LL Zoning
to. I've heard both sides of the story. One person is concerned because his
land is going upzoned to 2 or 3 acres, which would in some respects help the
creeks, because it would eliminate the development. Other people who say
they are defending the farmer feel that they should be upzone further~ and
development around the creeks should be eliminated. I think that the interests
of the people that own property and the people that do no~f have been balanced
fairly in this. The people that want development and the people that do not~
have been balanced fairly. It's very difficult looking at from the outside to
realize the kind of negotiation and the kind of work that went into this, the
kind of review. You know what went into it. You know that if you don't do
it, because of the interest of people on both sides, how are going' to come to
any kind of conclusion. You know you're not going to. My feeling ~s that you
should pass the Master Plan. You know what's in it. It's workable. There~are
gains that have been made and they should be realized. It's long ,past d~ue.
We have a lot of development here that wouldn't be the way it is now,
Master Plan were passed two or three years ago. I'm sorry that
speak in opposition to so many people I agree with, but the point is tha.tl..a
moratorium legally won't work if you don't have a plan that you're!.wait!ng.to
put in, so what I would suggest that people who are concerned with the 'zoning
around marinas, and the zoning around farmland ..that they present the B6ard
with a plan for those specific areas. It would-be no more difficult afte~ the
Master Plan s passed than right now, because you're dealing witi~ ~he
thing. You're dea lng w~th zoning map, you're deal nga body? ~Of ~ ~o~
have the same problem afterw'ards. . Meanwh le. we'll haYe the ~i0te~i~n~.i ~. ~ . ~'o~
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Please have a little cou. rtesy~a.nd le~ the~m~n make
his statement as everyone .else can.
JOE.~TOWNSEND: We have excellent set.of laws that the new Master Plan
provide us with. Do you know the ~,ork that's gone into' it? Do y~ou know
the interest that are spoken on' both sides of the issue~.. How maln~ times it's
been ~reviewed? You look at a map and some things don't make.~s~nse until
you look into it further. My f~e ings s t should be done now.and if changes
are t° be made, f we have Inade, quate .~on.ng let's approalch that ~a~terwa~ds~
You can not put a moratorium in'..My feeling is tha~t you will. see an~ther,,five
years trying to g~t sometl~ing stronger~ more strigent. Tihank your.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Joe. Anyone else in the middl~e like to
address? Ma. rga ret?
MARGARET FEENEY: I just have two points in the Master Plan. i'm Margaret
Feeney from Laurel. There's two points to the Master Plan that ~ think could
be improved to help the environment. One of them, is the Master Plan calls
for a twenty, feet buffer between the we~tlands and any disturbance of the ~and.
The Nassau~Suffolk Regional Planning Board in its nine point source of. pollution
document as~ks for a 100 foot buffer. Since ~ think lately almost e.ve.ryone is
aware of the problems with pollution, coming from runroff, that lawns contribute
to the I~ol.lution in our creeks. Changing the Master Plan to requir~e a hundred
foot buffer, as the original Planning Board suggests, would be a W-orthwhi~e
change. The other point is in the marine 2 designation, that allows 100 foot
unit density to motels, which tends to put the most dense development ~n our
most critical area, since most people are goin~g to put motels closelto the water.
This doesn't seem .like good planning with the. pollution problem, t.hat we've
been having: putti.ng this incredible dense a~ea right 'by our water. A~ earlier
speaker talked abo~.ut our right to protect the wetlands, and the environment.
In fact I think all of you know that it's the law, and your obligation toprote~t
these wetlands, not the rights of the citizens, so if our Master Plan was made
Pg 33 - LL Zoning
· - 'L-,,i!.~,,~ ~ .~
it's not that much part of public interest. Long and short term profit usually
ends up long time loss, is what short profit means. Profit great, if you'd like
to think about that, but loss is not so good. Okay. So you've got your zoning
ordinance has to be' consistent with a comprehensive plan. The plan in turn
by law, must be up-to-date, and there was a zoning ordinance that was struck
down because it was not based on an up-to-date plan, a zoning change in Bedford,
New York, Mt. Kisko, Bedford, Mt. Kisko was the case.. It went to the highest
court of New York St ate not too long ago. And that's not too far from here.
The plan must also be comprehensive in scope, and the best example of a plan
what was truly comprehensive in scope is reflected in 'the Ramapoe case., which
is one of the landmark case of ..... It envolved a' plan that was so detailed,
not only did .they have a moratorium, parts of their moratorium extended up
to 18 years.long for certain parts of the town. I'll get to that in a minute.
In terms, of really the issue today, we're talking about' the zoning amendments,
and there .is' some feel. lng, I preceve on the part of some indivi~Juals, that
we should just. passithis thing, and then we'll go and make changes later, if
it's not perfect.'. But, legally, that is all wet. Legally, legislation and zoning
ordinan, ce and zoning .amendments are legislation is considi~red a' semi-permanent
action. The .rea'son~it.'s sero-permanent is because there's an expectation.that
every ten years or so~ you will go back and revise it, as.we are doing now.
The reason it' is. permanent is because you are not expected to go and cha:nge
the zon.,ing law.f0r' every developer, every case, every person who wants to
do something wi~h their pi, roperty. In the zoning there, are. Pr'ovisions: for variances,
to protect~ ip.riva~e rigl~ts ,W. hen you need a little adjustment~; and, for s'pecial
uses to, p~-otect lhe public in[et'est, thereby enably th~iTO~ ~Dalrd to ~etain
some d.'~.cretion, and slilll prope,-ly exercse their authO~-it~ijlbi~[i~to~pa-Ss a ZOning
amendment~ with the .f~eli~g that this is the best we can: doli'.~t this ;[im~, and
we II work o~ ~t 'la,ter, ~s,l~ndefens.ble legally. There w,.I,I r~o,~ on!ly be leg.slat.on
of litagat, ion~ but the I~ita~ation will be successful in challahg~ing.such'action.
Now I come to the issue Of moratoriums, and this is very muc~ an issue here
tonight, I take issue.~with the Supervisor, due repect.. We;~:,~e-in~ dis~ss.i~g
moratoriums. (Tape cl~anged) We must have reasons for Wha:~..we say., an'd
we must :be aware of the consequences of the way we vote, The idea, okay,
I've already said. this !act.i~)n you're going to take when you vote on the zoning
should be considered ~ permanent thing. You should also~feel~ .t:h~t you have
a choice. You shouldi'~kn~ that it's not too late. You shouldl know that. there
are alternatives~. '..that :ilf ~e'don't pass these proposed zoning,'"" the world will
not end,. We don't n:e,~cesa, rily have to call a moratorium, ~llthough I w0Ul~l.
like to see that. But...what we're talking about here, wlhat,',!l'm trying t:o express
is that .there must .be.i'~there are alternatives. The idea of~:a.vote is that there
is a cho. ice and .we"re pre~ented tonight with yes or no, ar~.d that's not'muCh
of a choice. Unfortuniitel~ ~he planning process has procee~led to thi~. point
and choices have b:eeni',made along the way, for this reasoni.or float reason..
Who knows. A Io~ Of the r. easons are not known, but at thi§¥point it ~would
have been nice, and w,e c~)uld still go back, and develop s.a!Y? three alternative
proposa!s, maybe al plan (or. zoning with Iow density, medi~lm den'sity~ high
density, something:al0~g those lines, and then we could pi~k'and chose between
them and perhaps putltog'ether a plan out of the three. Bu',t.'j,uSt to cond...
or another alternative.in/environmental impact processes, ~he SEQR law and
the Nationa:l Envi:.ronm~nta:I 'Policy Act on the national and ~[a't'e levels., there's
a requirement that alw~]ys.must be considered as a certain altern~ative. It's
.called the No Act'ion Alternative. In this case, that's a mc~ratorium. Now people
are very scared when ithe~ hear that word moratorium. I d0'n't know. why.
I really...l'm more afraid d,f rushing ahead without knowingi~hat we're doinc].
One reason, sometimes peo, ple say, well,there's a lot legal ~i~q~irements for~
moratorium. Well, I have ,studied in depth the law on mora~t°riUms n New York
State, and I could tell:you 'there's not much of it. The co~rt:s and the legislatures
Pg 34 - LL Zoning
have decided to abstain from becoming involved. They have left this to the
local governments. It's up to you. If you want a moratorium, you're expected
to do it fairly. And if you do it fairly, your decision will be respected and
be upheld by the courts. There are basically two kinds of moratoriums which
have been used. One is a planning moratorium, and this is used for the purposes
of going back and preparing a plan. It could also used for going back and
preparing a zoning ordinance. That would probably still come under the genera!
term planning moratorium. The other one is a service supply moratorium, and
I think that the pressure that's being put on our roads, water supply~ sewer,
and all the other services which the public needs in this town. We justify
a moratorium on that ground also. So either way. 'If it is true that there
and don't think there's anybody who would question the fact, that right oow
Southold Town is faced with .... development proposals. The development pressure
may have eased off a little bit recently. That makes it all better time to ~ake
a break and take stock, and reorient themselves. But even with that slight
easing there, there still is a lot of development right now. in the works~ and
I don't think there is, there are'a very few anyway, people in Sour:hold Town
who are unaware of atleast one development, which .that indivi!dua~l single d~velop-
ment is going to have a significant adverse .impact o.n the ~nvironmental
or the cultural character of the town. But if you take all this d~velopmen~
that's underway together accumaltive effect of that development then:l thi~k
that t's c ear we're ta k ng: about erretrie.vab e. cornm itment ol~ -e~ci~u?~es~ ~a~d
probably i.rrive.rsab!e envir;onrnental degradat,ion, if we oon't r~ave an aRp~Pria~e
plan ~n place. As ,we further develop as the:. dens.ty,iof~ the tdwn:~nc?ea~es~
so too, does th~ need. fox,organization, and that doe~sn',t.,c~m,e ilf~ro~n, i.ndivi~d'fial
developers. ~NO. one developer i.s conCerneld With tl~e;i'Wh01~i::~o,wn''. 'That's
role that the ;l'own ~iBoardi has. to :pla~;The real quest:i0, n.ltl~!ink~ ,corne~ dc.,wn'
to ease the .]a.~.d us~a .regula;tion., ~whic:h th,e scheme,, .W~hilch.,~ .~o.w i~ placel...!a'dequate
or not; that's: a legal qi..aes~ion. That'.s a political,qta~stion,:
5UPERVISO:R. iMURP,HY: Excuse me. Would you try to sum up. There are
other people that.vgpuld like to speak, too.
BENJAMIN SCHWARTZ: I'm sorry, if I'm..Am I boring people? Let me try
and finish in 59 many words. Development, perse, is not wrong, but I think
most peopl, e would like to see development going on, but development per quad,
that's a .legal term meaning, in context. The context being a sensitive environment
and perhaps a inadequate, legal regulatory scheme. The regulatory scheme,
and I'm not g.oi. ng to go. into any kind of detail, but just, we were talking about
zoning. Zoning is ,the cornerstone of land use law, but ilt operates in conjunction,
in context wi.tl~' the plan on which the zoning :based. The lsubd~ws~on regulations
which are ;a.s~parate thing, site plan r.egulations which are another kind 01:
zoning law, and in Southold Town I'm proud' to say that we have other special
laws, 'like t.hel core ,watershed recharge .p an under cons~d~r.,atlon and hopefully
a waterfront ~evit~l:zation plan coming;on th,e=line. But all these speci~li]aws
and things:, thfise (;an not substitUte a comp~r~hensive land use plan~ and .a
zoning ord. ina~ce t01,,irnplement that. In conclusion, I ask you to say no,' and
to do what~eve!r~ is ~e~c~esary, perhaps appointing a task ~-orce~ with a c]ealr
mandate a0d deadline.and maybe even a mora~o'rium, although I think you, might
be scared. I don't know. If you.;don't call aimorato~ium, I .hope we will find
out why. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else on the right like to address the Town
Board? We'll a~sk in the center again, is there anyone who would like to address
the Town Board? Harold?
Pg 35 - LL Zoning
HOWARDZEHNER: My name is How~rd.Zehner. I live in Greenport. I'm a
licsensed professional engineer, and I've spent a lot of time at Town Board
meetingsand organizational meetings, where the Town Board has called upon
members of various organizations to make suggestions towards the Master Plan.
Unfortunately at a hearing people applaud emotionally and take emotional sides
and the podium does not have a chance to respond. Supposed facts can be
stated at, by people, and you don't know if they're true or not true. I under-
stand that a moratorium isn't illegal. It's been looked into, and it's been considered
by the Town, and I understand~ there is many difficulties with establishing
a moratorium. This is my understanding,yet our Town Attorney, Mr Schodebare,
cannot respond at a hearing. This is undesirable. I don't know the answer.
Perhaps some of the .more important discussions that' have come up could be
answered, perhaps, in the newspapers, by the people on the podium~ being
responsible people, so we know of some of these statements are facts, or if
they're hearsay,, or 'individual ~thoughts. I will also, like to.say, before I give
a very.shOrt' talk, that. at any hearing the people who show up are the'negatives.
The people who are agains't..something. It's been well .established. I know that
Army Corp will do anything to avoid a hearing;. Not because they don't want
to have a hearing, because it's expensive and the hearing results and state
information.that you'ye heard..in the past. I'm sure everything, you've; ' heard
here tonight, yo.u!ve~ heard sometime in the past. I was raised on a farm.
I was.also rais'edby par;ents that were into politics. My father,~was in~o,.politics.
I know .that pr01~.lems..with.making political deci sions. I wondier if M.r,'Latham
here, Mr. Terry, I rather, I wonder about his problem. It bothers me, that
he should be'. deprived,.~o'f getting the value for his land tltat'.,he shou'.l~l be'getting.
That heis i'bee'n c. ontin~ly~upzoned. I call that upzoning W~hen he caln.'t'seli
off a half alCre~ I~ut.oOw' he must only sell off five acre pa. Fcel. s. .'1 ddn't'know
i,f he has,beenlicon;sid~r~ed, and other farmers have been c'~nshflered, ,although
I ye' tried tb 100k i,nto.~v~l;ything I can on the Master Plan~ii I doni't
the ans.'W'ers. I woOld ..l!ke =t~ assume that you people have iln, r~0m~ w~ C~or~S]dered
Mr. Terry's problema'~d.°ther farmers' problems. But we ~on,t
can't te~ll Us,.now, and',i',everyone hasn't read every word in'ii,that M~astelr Pihn.
They halve. ~.MI0~ peo~le :here haven't had time or maybe nb't 'the e×c~Ss tO
the Ma~.(t.er F'laa. I h~a~en't read it all. I have a good feeJin'g 'for:wl~at's.i,n
the Ma~,~er Piar~, 'beca.U~e.i've been i nvol.ved in some parts or.lit. ;'Ju~:t let'~ me
say thi§, real'quick. ;.,'~il:~ Wrote something down here. I hal~'to re, ad ~nything
but ouri:,~Cou'n(~ilman, an!~l Councilwoman, with the added impOt' of m~ny! 'other
organiza{~ions.0~er :fi.v.e;i .yea rs hard work have originated a Nlaster ~Pian f~r~our
Township,..Th~ese pe6~le!are elected officials. They repres:ent' us. we~,can't
know al!~th~: detaHs.~,~e can't know everything that they cens=~der,. W~e h~ve
to rely~ .upon il~hem~ 'Wel voted them in to office. We have 't(~ ~-ely Upon tb~em.
I understan~t the.last, li!a~ttempt for a Master Plan was in 1967, twen~ty-gne'y~ears
ago. M.uch',has chang.~{~ in'this time frame. Our Town Board.should, bet commended
for their en'ormous;ef~o~t.:A five year effort. I think they~;shbUld!belcorhm'ended,
right or wrong, However you people feel, I think they should be .commer)ded.
They've worked very ~:.h.!ard at this. They get the same sal,ar¥ whether or. not,
they spendtumpteen hours working on a Master Plan. They!r~ doingiso~nething
they fee'l~ is, necessary.". I think they should be respected for it. Not~ beat"over
the head. W.e should m.ake positive suggestions, not just negative sugges~tions.
Positive suggestions. The Board has a reasonable cross-se;ction of past .and
present men, bets, who :have worked on this plan including Paul 5toutenburgh,
a devout environmentalilst Businessmen are on the Town B6ard. A judge, is
on the TowriiBoard, and others who represent us. They've:come up.with a
good a Plan!aS 'they can. They've spent five years doing it~;' It's fooli'sh to
think that they can redo or approve this-in a very short period of time. To
build a !house' it may takes eight months to do ninety percei~t ,of thei house,
and another eight mont~hs to do the last ten percent. It will take another five
Pg 36 - LL Zoning
years to clean possible errors in the Master Plan, meanwhile we'll have nothing.
If you think the situation is going to be better with nothing, then with the
Master Plan I think you are absolutely wrong. But that's my opinion. We had
eight zones before the affordable housing zone, which makes nine zones. Most
all businesses and residen[~r:~ fell into by exception catagory or some kind of
non-conforming catagory, or some kind of screwed up catagory, so that the
Zoning Board of Appeals was always involved in trying to settle controversies
We now have 16 zones to cover the present rarity of business and residents~
which are necessary with our existing situation in Southold Town. Existing
businesses and residential considerations. Most important we have a hard thought
plan, which is for the future. Which is positive. Which should not be destroyed,
but adoped and perhaps modified with a six month study, but adopted and
again, I think it's questionable whether or not we can have a moratorium, t
don't think from what I've heard it's a legal manuever or procedure. 'Again,
l'd like to say that I think for every positive speaker here~ tliere, may be 'ten
at home who are not here. It's negative people who come to this h6aring, come
to most any hearing. I think that's gene?ally thought to be'. true. I Could~ be
in error. Thank you very much for your time.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Is there anyone else in the middle, who would like
to address the Town Board? Would you please let some or, her people spe~k
first. You spoke before. How about those who haven't spo~ken yet. Let's gi~ze
them a chance. Bob?
BOB WACKER: I'll be very brief, but I think what the gentleman who just
proceeded me was saying, was that why do we bother with these hearings at
all? You fellows have made up your mind, for better or worse. There are
good things about the Master Plan, and we think there are very Dad things
about it and we want you to redo a certain '.thing. Now if we're wrong,. You've
spent more on reviewing it than I. have. But all I can recall is about four or
five years ago,about the last one 0f.these hearings I atter~ded and it was, for
this reason I quit coming to these things, we had a very similar discussibn~
on a very similar issue, and when it was al.I over, one memlder of the Town!.
Board; no longer here I'm haPpy to say, he's., bac:k seliingl~real 'estate, p~l[~d
a folded piece of paper out of his pocket~ a,n:~l, read this Pi'ece of paper
that he ihad listened vlery carefully to all our.;:.~rgumen~s, and he was .v~ry
pressed,.with our sincerity and that what we.'had said cer~tain~y~mo~ed him,,
but unb,ailance and ca .......... he was forced ~,.to conclude ,thal~. h.e wias,goi~g
to vote ,against the wish which was expressed "by the majo~it¥.?o~ t.bl~ ~eo~le'~
present. Of course~ what I m suggesting to, you is thai'that.piece 'Of paper
was wr~.tten by h~m or somebody ,else long I~e~?re .the. hearing, everl.i~oegan~ And
all I'm ~¢king yOU now i:s thiS, a,he'a~ing, an,,.d, hlare you ,il.i;,st~ir~, 'o? ,aliie we just
go.ng th,.r, ough~..have,.you already made ~p yo.~r minds. How, ilman'~, ipeople, there
have f0~ed: PieC~ ef p~.per i.n their pockets?. That'~ia![ I..w~nted,~o say.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY:. Bob, we're having a public hearing to take your imput,
to lister~.to you. That's what we're here for. That's what we.spen't:a .10t of
time and ,public hearings on listening to the people. That's what :we're' doing.
Anyone else? Dave?
DAVID STRONG: My name is David Strong. I'm from Mattituck, and I'm also
the owner of Strong's Marina. I wasn't going to speak tonight, but because
you've~ al'l arrived tonight to say about the marine district and while I'm not
necessary in favor with the way it's layed out in my particular circumstance.
I just felt I had to say something to commend this Board. People come up and
say these people haven't listened and they haven't put the imput, but they
Pg 37 - LL Zoning
really have. They m.ght not agree, and they certainly don't agree with me
all the time, but we need to do something, and the waterways are getting worse
· and worse. You're only other choice as far a waterways go, is to let people
continue to put more and more boats and affluent wherever they choice to do
it. We need to start someplace. As far as the rest of the town goes, we've
all seen how that happened. I've been a twenty-five year resident in this
Town and I would like to stay here. All you have to do is look at Route :25
in Mattituck and I have store there also, and you can see how that looks. It
time to do something. I think they've done their homework. They've listened
enough and really don't think it's fair to just say that they haven't done this,
because l see that this people work. I just want to really comment you'. for
the work, not necessarily agree with everything that!s in' the Plan, but I recom-
merit that it be implemented as soon as possible. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, Dave. Anyone else in the middle, who hasn't
spoken before. In the back?
ANN KNOWLES: I just want to ask a question.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Would you use the microphone,please, and identify
yourself
ANN KNOWLES: Ann Knowles.
SUPER~/ISOR MURPHY: What is the question?
ANN KNOWLES: Why can't we have a moratorium? .What's wrong with it?
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: This is a public hearing on the zoning, really. I could
answer that question for you later. Let's not get on to that. Sir?
FRANK WILLS: My name is Frank Wills. I live in Mattituck. I think one of
things that we might be literally losing sight of is relativity. The thing that
Einstein invented. All of us probably remember that twenty, or forty, or sixty
years ago, you could' but an acre for a few dollars, and today an acre in Mattituck
or in Southold is what? Sixty to eighty thousand? And presu~31~al~lyin ten years
unless the economy crashes it will probably be over one hundred thousand.
What time frame are we talking about? But the plan to work that you're doing
here is planning for the future. The past is gone. Forget it. You can no longer
bring it back. You're planning for 2000, you're saying, but 2000 is tomorrow.
Do it even longer, therefor I suggest. Strengthen the Plan. Make it tighter
because in five years you will regret if you didn't. Time is exhJlerat~.g, the
birth rate, there are more and more of us, which is what is creating the problem
There were no problems here a thousand years ago. Ten thousand years ago
there was an ice age. I'll guarantee you that at the rate we're going in the
year 2000, which is lite rally tomorrow. In a few weeks, it will be 89. Ten
years these days go quickly. Make it tighter. Some of us, the farmers, the
fishermen, personal property owners, we're all human, and one of the atributes
we have is greed. We like our pockets. We always keep hoping that we will
get more and that things will get better. Having lived as long as most of the
people I see right here have, you know that is a fact. There are some offsets
.to the good life, and regretably we may have to lose some in order to keep
this place the way it has been, and we hope to somehow maintain it. I suggest
we have a moratorium and tighten it up, and in order to have a moratorium,
we must have an answer, make it three months, but do not procrastinate like
we're doing on the Shoreham thing, with Mr. Coumo, and LILCO, or the federal
government, with taxes and the deficit. We can enact this way here. Let's
Pg 38 - LL Zoning
do it now, but look for tomorrow. Don't look back. It's gone. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, sir. Anyone else in the middle who hasn't
spoken yet? Anyone over on the left, who hasn't spoken? Anyone who would
like to speak again? Yes, ma'am.
GIGI SPATES: My name is Gigi Spates, and I'm from Southold, and I came
here unprepared but I have a few remarks to make on what I've been hearing.
I think, in deed, a lot of you have put in a lot of years of work. I know that
personally from some of you that I know a little bit, and the rest of you, I
just assume you've worked hard and I know people before you worked hard.
But none the less, I feel that in the last few years, a lot of pressure from
the environment and awareness about its needs has come about, and it's hit
all of us very hard as well as you. I think public sens[ tivi ty is reallyt great
here tonight. A lot greater than l've ever felt it. I'd like you to give, us
credit as the public for a newly raised con s~ioasn,ess. I believe that if .we had
a moratorium and 'it would go under effect, that we will work with you during
the moratorium period, and in a way that you've never seen us work. Many
of us have become .... professionals lately. We delve into land .use la~ en~iron-
mental law, we research Planning ~ard files, know 'this ~er~o~lly. ~ Study
the Master Plan and zoning requirements. We have organizations that ha~e really
come forward in the last few years. We have individuals, too, that ca~ wo~k
with you. We expect that you came here with an open mi'nd, ~oni'g.ht and ~e
ask you, please, to reconsider. Whatever decisions you had: ~bef0re you came
in here tonight, please reconside,r,what you h~ard ~oni g~ ~a~'s :"~o im~p:r~nt
to all of us. You and us. We've got to work togethe~ on th ~. We..can ~ b~ ..politically
devisive, and we can't be ~nd~wdually.dews~ve. This ~s. ou~ pl~ce, a~d'~ ~now
a lot of people. . in this audience. People. r ght here. Th s person,to~~ ~1...; : ..,.:~,- l~!g~ing
to leave ~ ~t doesn't work out here. ~ 'can't stand what's ~a~o~n ~'g to, ~he~
land. It tears me apart everyday. You,Ve got to, pl~ase,, ti~t~.n :.~p '~" :''
as :~hi, s
last gentleman said. It's so Very, very important. "Pl~.se '.l.i~n :~o u:s.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Is there anyone else I~:~),w~uld,.!ike to
address the Board? Yes, ma'am? "
VELMA MARSTON: Thank you, Mr. Murphy, for being so democratic, because
today I spoke five times at noon, and I'm speaking tonight. Velma Marston.
I'm speaking now, as an individual, although I am president of Water, Land
and Wildlife. I think this young lady spoke ~ery apply and very beautifully.
I think there has been an increase in sensitivity on environmental issues
which was not present when the first plans where made for the Master Plan.
We're a different .people on this Board, who are not as environmentally or
this present Board, maybe. I would like to take issue with some:of the: remarks,
made that many people .who come here are negative. If negative means ,~reserving
the environment, I'd have to take issue with that. Most of the pdople Who
expressed themselves offered positive solutions which I'hope you will alll think
about, and possibly in democratic fashion reCOnsider and pos!Sible, vote f~r a
moratorium. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Is there anyone else who would like to comment to
the Town Board? Ronnie?
RONNIE WACKER: Ronnie Wacker, North Fork Environmental Council. I wanted
to respond to Mr. Zehner. He said he thought that a moratorium would be ~ega[ly
indefensibly. The Department of State of New York has written, I believe,
on moratoria, and it said that a moratorium is perfectly legal. It must have
certain key elements. One of them is that it must be for a specific length
of time . It must be for a specific action. I don~t remember what the other
Pg 39 - LL Zoning
two elements were, but if it has one or more of these elements, it can be defensible
in court. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Anyone else like to address the Town Board again?
HEATHER TETRALT: I'm Heather Tetralt from Mattituck. I just want to say
about the Master Plan that a lot of it, I think, is written really well and sound.
Very nice. It sounds like what we possibly do want for the future, and like
everyone's said, everyone's worked on it very hard, but I don't, from what
I see, I don't think the zoning goes along with what it said in the Master Plan.
The Master Plan sounds wonderful; It talks about how this Town should be.
It sounds great~ but then when you look at the zoning, it doesn't match up
with it. I really think the zoning needs to be looked at again. I don't think
you should pass it now, and then go back and try and. make changes. I don't
think that's going to work,' and like Gigi said that if this Town continues, to
develop at the rate /ts developing, certainly myself, and many of the young
people I know, will not stay here. We don't want to live in, you know, Linden-
hurst, that's why we're here. Okay, I just, also do call for a moratorium. I
have the signatures of 10 people, who could not be here. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to
address the Town Board? Steve7
STEVE LATSON: My name is Steve Latson. I guess I'm speaking for myself.
I think the Master Plan should not be passed as it is. I think we should have
a year moratorium. I think that every Board member should seriously attempt
in the next six months' or so, to put together a plan that is realistic, and faces
some of the addresses, the zoning problems, that are evident from what you are
now going! possibly going to vote on, or you are going to vote on. Obviously,
M1 and M2 are a joke. They don't define anything. I mean, M2 says this is a
great place for agriculture and also, for hotels, or motels. That doesn't make
too much sense; Eleven out of the sixteen M2 zones do not follow the actual
defihition. I t01d you this' six months ago, and I guess you didn't pay much
attention. You should have corrected that right away. Eleven of them are
on creeks. M2'is supposed tobeloperwell flushed areas, There's so many things
to say and I'm just not going to say them. I~ve said what I really have to say.
I would say thi~, that if You're. looking for a positive note, Mark McDonald and
Bob Villa just presented you a'plan that is not in the Master Plan, but it should
be, and that's' the type of, planning that we need. And they have set up a core
watershed area that wi!l be here fifty years from now, and Jt will guarantee that
every single h~me owr~ers, or property owner will not lose anything, through the
use of TDR's,'and this is 'also what you should be doing on the coast, in the
sensitive areas. I hate to speak in public. Once in awhile I pull it off. I mean
right there twd Weeks ~go, yo, u saw something that is so much superior to any-
thing in the Master Pi~n. I couldn't believe it as far as recommended zoning.
Right in front Of your! faces. Take that and just apply that type of attitude to
the rest of the .,areas i!n tl~e Town, and to the problems, and in a year you'll
have a good Master .Plan, and a good zoning map. It's unbelievable that you can't
just sit down and do it. Waterfront revitalization, we have nowhere, I mean there's
no way that we can do anything ourselves, because you have't given us the zoning
to do. How can 'you' go in~o Mill Creek and say, the west side should be preserved
when there's no mecha,nism to preserve it. We need those mechanisms, and the
mechanisms are there. So wake up and start doing it. I mean, I can't believe
it. I hear people saying that you've done a good job. I disagree. I've seen things
layed out all over the iplace. It's so obvieus. You were presented with the answers,
just the other day,by ~two people who are well respected in the community. I
can't believe you're not responding to these things. It's unbelievable. Thank you
very much.
Pg - 40- LL Zoning
SUPERVISOR: Thank you. In the back? Yes?
GEORGE FONDAY: George Fonday. I would like to say that I'm originally from
Huntington, and I've seen what happened to Huntington. I was born there in
1949, and it's turned into, everybody knows what that has turned into, and l
don't want see Southold Town turned into the same thing that Huntington has.
Two land owners that I know of here, my landlord, and also my good friend are
here tonight. They don't want to see it turned into the same thing that Huntington
has been turned into. I wish you would all please consider, other than your
monatary considerations, I wish you would consider the... I'm never going to
be able to afford a house, ever, probably, unless I win the lottery,, but.l would
like to see the' rest of these nice people, I would like to see them hold on: to
their places, and especially the farmers, to keep their land' and keep it from being
another Huntington. Than'k you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you. Anyone else? Jeanne?
JEANNE MARRINER: I'd just like to say that in the book, Toward Eden, by Arthur
Palmer, and in the other book, Design with Nature, by lan McCarb, if you took
that and read that within the next two weeks, you would know
how to do. There are laws all written Out. You can apply them. You could have
all this done in six months, if you would just open your minds, and go do it.
Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Is there anyone else who would like to address the Town
Board?
LLOYD TERRY: I would like to, if I may, and then 1'11 go. One thing that
distress me a little bit, we've heard nothing about individual rights. Each one
of us has our ideas about our own rights, but if you listen to the Borch hearings,
one that sticks in my mind, is that, I think it was Mr. Botch, Judge Borch, that
said when one group of people excercise their rights, they take away the rights
of somebody else's. Now as far as environmentlism is concerned, I'm all for it.
Our family has been in farming for two hundred and fifty-six years. We've done
nothing to hurt the environment. I think down our way in Orient, the State has
done as much, the highway, has done as much to pollute Hallocks Bay, then the
farmers, who have gotten the credit for it. That is the runoff from the north
side, runs right down the Main Road, goes into a trench, into a four foot conduit,
right accross John Tuthill's meadow, right under Narrow River Road, right into
Narrow River, and then to Hallocks Bay. Now I saw it after a heavy rain, 'when
it was just the color of coffee coming out there. If I'd had a camera, I'd have
some good pictures. I think we'd better find out who the culprits are, and. as
far as a moratorium is concerned. The reason that the developers come in i:s probably
because some poor soul has to sell some land. I'll admit that:, somebody hais 'done
it just to. make money, but a lot of us are doing it for our livelihood. Whien you
think about declaring a moratorium, just. think about clamping down on all your
pay checks. Your pensions, and everything. Put yourself in the f~rmer's iplace
for once and you'll damn well find out what a moratorium means. I've ggn~ through
some hard times, and I can tell you the: farmers accross the country are :not
sleeping well. Try to practice the golden rule, that's all I can say.
SUPERVISOR TERRY: Thank you, si-r. Anyone else? John?
JOHN NICKLES: I'm John Nickles. I really didn't plan to speak tonight, but
after listening to the session this afternoon., and this evening, and having been
a member of the Town Board in 1982, when the Master Plan was initiated, I think
Frank and I were there, and Joe Townsend was a councilman, also. That time
Pg - '.41 - LL Zoning
had been ten or eleven years since our zoning had been updated. We thought
it was important to begin that process. It's now six years later, and although
the Master Plan and the view of many people may not be perfect, it's better than
what we have, and I want to remind the Board of one thing. Zoning is a living
organism. It changes with the times, and what the people want. A moratorium
is a do nothing action. I say adopt the Master Plan, to a continuous update of
the Master Plan as it is now, and make it better based on the comments you've
heard here tonight. We all think this is God's country. We all want to keep it
that way. I think the most perfect thing I heard tonight was said by Farmer Terry
from Orient, common sense. I think i'f the Town Board applies common sense to
what they've heard tonight and what they have to-address. I think that three
different Town Boards have worked on this Master Plan, along with paid professional
planners. This is not a precipit,,~s.act. As a real estate broker I'm perfectly
happy with zoning with have now in place, but we all recognize, I've been here
fifty years, we have to do something about controlling growth and keeping what
we love about Southold, Southold. We want to keep it God's country and I ask
the Board to keep that in mind, and do what you have to do. Thank you.
SUPERVISOR MURPHY: Thank you, John. Is there anyone else would like to
address the Town Board? (No response.) If not, we'll close the public hearing
and thank everyone, and I could guarantee you that every member of the Town
Board will take all your comments -i~n~r advise~t. -Thank you,, again..
Southold Town Clerk