HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-09/26/2013 Hearing
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1 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
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3 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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6 Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
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8 September 26, 2013
7:02 P.M.
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10 Board Members Present:
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12 LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Chairperson/Member
13 ERIC DANTES - Member
14 GERARD GOEHRINGER - Member
15 KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
16 GEORGE HORNING - Member (Excused)
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18 JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
19 VICKI TOTH - Secretary
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23 Jessica DiLallo
Court Reporter
24 P.O. Box 984
Holbrook, New York 11741
• 25 (631)-338-1409
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1 INDEX TO HEARINGS
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3 Hearing Page
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5 Planning Board of the Town of
6 Southold, #6685 3-69
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September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 3
• 1 HEARING #6685 - PLANNING BOARD OF
2 THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
3 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This evening's
4 hearing is dedicated to a hearing that was
5 requested of the Zoning Board of Appeals
6 by the Southold Town Planning Board. I am
7 going to read into the record what the
8 legal notice states. The applicant is the
9 Town of Southold Planning Board, #6685.
10 Request for Town-Wide Interpretation under
11 Section 280-146(D) of the Town Code as to
12 whether two uses are consistent with Town
• 13 Code Section 280-13(4) and
14 280-13(C)(1)(10) as part of a winery use
15 or permitted accessory uses fr a principal
16 winery use. The first is the use of the
17 winery as a dance and social club, and the
18 second is as a retail cigar store. I would
19 like to open this by explaining a little
20 bit more about what the purpose of
21 tonight's hearing is, because I would like
22 to try and set the framework in a way that
23 people understand exactly what is before
24 the Zoning Board. This is a request from
• 25 the Planning Board for an interpretation
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 4
• 1 of two sections of the existing Town Code,
2 and that is pursuant to 280-146(D), which
3 describes the powers and duties of the
4 Zoning Board of Appeals. I am going to
5 read you that section of the code so that
6 everyone is clear about what that means.
7 280-146(D) states interpretation this
8 is under the section under the Powers and
9 Duties of the Board of Appeals, an appeal
10 from an order, decision or determination
11 of an administrative officer or on request
12 of any Town officer, Board or agency, to
• 13 decide any of the following: (1) Determine
14 the meaning of any provision in this
15 chapter or of any condition or requirement
16 specified or made under the provisions of
17 this chapter. So what that means is that,
18 the Zoning and Planning Board, which I am
19 sure all of you are aware of, had an
20 application for Site Plan Review and
21 approval from, Vineyard 48. That is not
22 what is before us this evening. The
23 Planning Board is prohibited from
24 permitting or approving anything on a site
• 25 plan that is not permitted by the Town
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 5
• 1 Code. They do not have jurisdiction to
2 make that determination. The Zoning Board
3 does. So as a consequence, the Planning
4 Board asked other Board's, like the
5 Trustees have done, has put in an
6 application or request to the Zoning Board
7 to interpret certain sections of the code.
8 This means that tonight is not a review
9 specifically of Vineyard 48 per se.
10 Rather we have an interpretation that is
11 going to have Town-Wide consequences.
12 What we're going to be doing is making a
• 13 decision precipitated by two activities on
14 the Vineyard 48 site, which then asks the
15 Planning Board motivated them to ask
16 the Zoning Board to look at the code and
17 see how those two uses related to what the
18 code says. We accept actually on
19 face-value the facts that have been given
20 to us in this packet. Okay. This packet
21 contains a whole series of documents. Our
22 intent is not to revisit the content of
23 those documents per se. They are what is
24 before us. They are a part of the Zoning
• 25 Board records. So let me tell you actually
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 6
• 1 what is in this packet, so you know what
2 this Board has already read and already
3 considering part of our proceeding. The
4 packet that we have includes a cover
5 letter, which I will soon read into the
6 record. Site plan's from 1990. This is
7 all from Vineyard 48. The first site plan
8 was approved. A 2006 site plan showing as
9 "as-built" plan, which is considered the
10 most recently approved plan. And the
11 current proposed site plan. We also have
12 Planning Board approval, resolutions and
• 13 letters, 1995 approval and resolutions and
14 a 2006 CO approval letter, final
15 inspection and plan. We have Planning
16 Board Public Hearing transcripts. If any
17 of you were here on either June 3rd or
18 July 1st before the Planning Board, every
19 one of those comments, we have a copy of
20 because we have transcripts of both of
21 those hearings. That included commentary
22 from anyone who was there and that is now
23 part of our Zoning Board application. We
24 have a summary of the Cigar Store history
• 25 and timeline. We have photos. We have
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September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 7
• 1 police reports. We have letter's from the
2 applicant's agent. We have video on CD
3 with links to You Tube and other social
4 media website's that are used for
5 marketing of what has been called "DJ
6 Dance Parties." Those are the things that
7 we have in our packet and we have read and
8 digested thoroughly. Now in addition to
9 that the important thing to make a
10 distinction between is we're not going to
11 revisit those. Those are considered facts
12 before us. There is no need to rehash
• 13 problems associated with Vineyard 48. We
14 are here to look at the bigger picture.
15 We're actually here to look at two
16 activities that have been described by the
17 Planning Board in a certain way, are
18 permitted at any winery in Southold Town.
19 And so let me read into the record and
20 by the way, we will not be making a
21 determination this evening. Just so you're
22 aware of that. We're fact finding tonight.
23 I am going to read you the letter from the
24 Planning Board now so you're aware of
• 25 exactly what was asked of us by the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 8
1 Planning Board. This is dated
2 August 28, 2013. The Planning Board is
3 reiewing the site plan application
4 referenced above. That is Vineyard 48, aka
5 Rose's Vineyard LLC. During the course of
6 the Public Hearing, an issue arose about
7 whether the uses on the property are
8 consistent with Section 280-13 of the Town
9 Code and permitted on the premises. Please
10 consider this memorandum as a referral for
11 an interpretation under Section
12 280-146(D), which is the part I have
• 13 already read to you about the powers and
14 duties of the Board of Appeals, as to
15 whether two uses are part of a winery use
16 or permitted accessory uses for a
17 principal winery use. The first is the use
18 of the winery as a dance and social club,
19 and the second is the retail cigar store.
20 The consideration of these issues is
21 necessary to insure consistent treatment
22 of similar applications for devolvement of
23 other agricultural parcels in the Town.
24 All right. So they're asking us to look at
. 25 all agricultural parcels in the Town. Use
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 9
1 #1 "Dance and Social Club" or "Bar." Is
• 2 the activity describe below permitted and
3 within th scope of a "winery" as set forth
4 in Section 280-13(4) or is it considered
5 an "accessory use" to a winery as used in
6 Section 280-13(C)(1) or C(10)? Now in
7 order to make sure you understand what
8 that means, I am going to read, they are
9 very brief, those sections of the code, so
10 you're aware of what the code currently
11 says. As some of you may or may not know,
12 the Zoning Board has the jurisdiction to
• 13 interpret the code as it exist. It is not
14 our intent or our authority to write code
15 or write the factual legislation. We are
16 here to simply determine the sections of
17 the code that the Planning Board has asked
18 us to look at relative to two uses at any
19 winery in Southold Town.
20 Section 280-13, Wineries which meet
21 the following standards: The winery shall
22 be a place or premises on which wine made
23 from primarily Long Island grapes is
24 produced and sold; (b) the winery shall be
• 25 on a parcel on which at least 10 acres are
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 10
• 1 devoted to vineyard or other agricultural
which is owned by the winery
3 owner; (c) the winery structures shall be
4 set back a minimum of 100 feet from a
5 major road; and (d) the winery shall
6 obtain site plan approval.
7 Section 280-13(C)(1) says: Accessory
8 uses at wineries is limited to the
9 following and subject to the conditions
10 listed in 280-15. (1) Any customary
11 structures or uses which are customarily
12 incidental to the principal use, except
• 13 those prohibited by this chapter.
14 And 13(C)(10), wineries may have an
15 accessory gift shop on the premises which
16 may sell items accessory to wine, such as
17 corkscrews, wine glasses decanters, items
18 for the storage and display of wine, books
19 of winemaking and the region and
20 nonspecific items bearing the insignia of
21 the winery. Wineries may not have a
22 commercial kitchen as an accessory use but
23 may have a noncommercial kitchen facility
24 for private use by the employees. Okay.
25 Those are the two sections of the code
•
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 11
• 1 that we have been asked to interpret
2 relative to two activities.
3 Now I will get back to the letter,
4 which describes the two activities. This
5 is from the Planning Board. "Dance and
6 Special Club" or "Bar." The testimony
7 before the Planning Board, and the
8 affidavits submitted in Court proceedings
9 show that during 2011 and 2012, and into
10 2013, the wine tasting accessory use of
11 the property has transformed from a
12 sedate, small scale winery focused on wine
• 13 tasting into a full-fledged, often raucous
14 party site that draws large crowds of many
15 hundreds of people where the focus is on
16 entertainment and drinking alcohol. The
17 patrons are encouraged by the combination
18 of DJ's, loud pulsating music, and alcohol
19 to let down their guard creating the
20 "anything goes" atmosphere of a crowded
21 dance and social club, a business model
22 typically attributed to night clubs. An
23 entry fee, cover charge, is charged in the
24 form of requiring entrants to purchase
• 25 four coins for wine sampling at the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 12
1 entrance, regardless of whether the person
• 2 intends to sample wines. However, there
3 is a footnote to that. And this is all a
4 summary of the two public hearings. The
5 testimony of the applicant was that
6 pregnant women, children and designated
7 drivers were not required to pay to enter
8 the premises. On weekends, this appears to
9 be the primary use of the property and the
10 business model the owners have stated they
11 intend to continue promoting. These
12 activities appear to be atypical of wine
• 13 tasting: 1) collection of a cover charge
14 at the entrance; 2) marketing strategy
• 3
15 (See video and Facebook posts/photos); )
16 pitchers of frozen sangria or "slurpees"
17 as they were referred to by the owner at
18 the Planning Board's Public Hearing; At
19 the hearing the owner admitted that he has
20 no idea how much alcohol is in this
21 pitcher, plastic pail or large plastic
22 pumpkin, nor do the patrons who are
23 encouraged to drink through straws (see
24 attached photos). Serving wine as a frozen
• 25 concoction with fruit appears designed to
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 13
1 disguise rather than highlight the flavor
• 2 of the wine; 4) Large number of security
3 guards for crowd control. To try and
4 control this behavior which results from
5 the "anything goes" atmosphere the owners
6 have purposely created, the site is manned
7 by security guards; 5) Numerous
8 intoxicated patrons. The Planning Board
9 heard many examples of intoxicated patrons
10 having an adverse effect on the quality of
11 life in the neighborhood to the point that
12 residents have changed the way they live
• 13 on their properties (e.g. closing windows
14 due to the noise, not permitting children
15 to play in the yard, not being able to
16 have outdoor family get together's);
17 6) Incidents include: Intoxicated patrons
18 staggering across Route 48, falling down
19 and having to crawl onto waiting buses,
20 nudity and sex acts occurring within sight
21 of and in neighbors' yards, and patrons
22 trespassing to urinate and defecate in
23 neighbors' yards. In addition to
24 neighbors' eye-witness accounts of these
25 problems, there are numerous police
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 14
1 reports illustrating similar problems (see
• 2 attached). That is the description that
3 we have been asked to determine if that is
4 a permitted activity on any winery in
5 Southold Town. Second is a Cigar Store. Is
6 a retail store making and selling
7 primarily cigars a permitted use in the AC
8 Zone or a customary and incidental
9 accessory use associated with a winery?
10 The testimony before the Planning
11 Board from the owner of the property shows
12 that the cigar store is a separate
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• 13 business from the winery. This store is
14 not shown on the previous site plans
15 approved by the Planning Board. While the
16 location of the cigar store may have been
17 previously used for retail sales of wine,
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18 retail use there was never officially
19 approved by the Town. In 1988, the ZBA
20 granted a conditional approval for retail
21 sales of wine with the requirement that
22 the site plan be completed. We find no
23 evidence of a site plan for retail in that
24 building ever being submitted or approved.
• 25 In 1990, the ZBA approved wine tasting
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 15
1 here, again with the condition that a site
• 2 plan be completed, and a subsequent
3 variance to allow a temporary tent for
4 wine tasting also called for site planning
5 to be completed. The first site plan was
6 approved in 1995, and did not involve any
7 retail in the original building. Instead,
8 a separate wine tasting pavilion was
9 proposed and approved. On all site plans,
10 the building in which the cigar store is
11 located is labeled "lab and office." The
12 applicant's agent and others have pointed
• 13 out that there is a photo of the Cigar
14 Factory in the Planning Board's file,
15 implying a tacit approval of the Planning
16 Board for this use. Regardless of the
17 existence of this photo, there is no
18 written approval of the cigar store or any
19 retail use of that building by the
20 Planning Board, on a site plan or
21 resolution. Further, the Planning Board
22 does not make determination on whether a
23 use is permitted. The Certificate of
24 Occupancy also do not appear to include a
• 25 retail for this building. For your
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 16
1 convenience, we have also included a copy
• 2 of relevant correspondence between the
3 Planning Board and the applicant's agent,
4 as well as transcripts from the Public
5 Hearing's. We respectfully request your
6 interpretation as to whether a retail
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7 store making and selling primarily cigars
8 is permitted in this zone at this site.
9 Kindly provide this Board with the
10 requested interpretations together with
11 supporting reasoning for the Planning
12 Board's official record. We are available
• 13 for questions, and are available to attend
14 the hearing. That is the request in
15 entirety that we have received from the
16 Planning Board. Now again, we won't be
17 making a decision this evening. Let me
18 summarize before we start asking people to
19 make comments, the questions that we have
20 been asked to interpret; are retail cigar
21 stores and/or the regular operations of a
22 large scale DJ dance party in an
23 agricultural zoned district normal
24 customary and accessory uses to the
• 25 marketing of grape growing and the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 17
1 production and sale of wine, which is the
• 2 principal use at a winery? Examples of
3 permitted uses; wine tasting building are
4 permitted marketing tool that are
5 accessory to the principal use of growing
6 grapes and producing wine. They are there
7 to produce sales of wine. A corn maze or a
8 u-pick situation at a farm, is a permitted
9 accessory use. For the principal
10 agricultural use of growing and selling
11 pumpkins for that matter. So we are here
12 to fact-find on appropriate uses for
• 13 wineries throughout Southold Town. Again,
14 the activities described at Vineyard 48
15 precipitated this request but we're not
16 here to focus on Vineyard 48 this evening.
17 We are here to focus on those two
18 described activities and whether or not
19 any winery in Southold Town should be
20 permitted to make, manufacture and sell
21 cigars on site in a retail building or are
22 they permitted to have large scale dance
23 party's with DJ's and loud amplified noise
24 with great frequency and regularity as a
• 25 business motto. Now, having said all of
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 18
1 that and I thank you very much for your
• 2 patience, let's see if there are any
3 comments that anyone would like to make.
4 I am going to ask the Board at this point,
5 if there is anything else that you wish to
6 add to what I have said and then I would
7 like to turn it over to the audience? No.
8 Okay. Let me see if there is anyone here
9 that would like to address this
10 application that is before the Zoning
11 Board. Please come forward and state your
12 name for the record.
• 13 MR. SHIPMAN: Bill Shipman, 75
14 Horseshoe Drive, Cutchogue. You said this
15 is fact-finding. If I could forward to
16 you, a Freedom of Information Report that
17 I have obtained from New York State Liquor
18 Authority, which their liquor license has
19 been they put it as misrepresented. I
20 would like to show you black and white
21 from the Freedom of Information website
22 that they have, that that particular
23 liquor license is in fact expired on
24 9/30/2011. They are operating under
25 State Authorization Protection Act which
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 19
• 1 enables them to operate while they are in
2 litigation. This information from the
3 website I think is vital to your decision,
4 the Planning Board's decision. I also
5 think when you have two other New York
6 State litigations revolving around your
7 business practices that those have to be
8 taken into consideration for whatever
9 building plan that they have, that has
10 obviously now kicked over to the Zoning
11 Board of Appeals. To me that conflict of
12 interest is extraordinary. I am sure that
• 13 the Town Attorney's Office has a little
14 bit of work to do in explaining how that
15 is going to work. Do you want to take a
16 look?
17 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We will accept
18 it and make it part of the record. It is
19 probably fundamentally directed more
20 towards the action involving the Planning
21 Board with regard to site plan approval.
22 Specifically with reference to Vineyard
23 48. What our concern is, fundamentally,
24 and if you have comments and I am sure
• 25 this Board would welcome them and from
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 20
1 anyone else in the audience, based on the
• 2 code that I have read to you, would this
3 let's say for operating, let's go with
4 the dance party and social club, would
5 that be an appropriate use on an
6 agricultural property for a winery
7 anywhere on Southold Town, not
8 particularly one that is very closely
9 associated with residents residential?
10 If you have any comments, having
11 experienced we certainly have your
12 comments from the Planning Board Public
• 13 Hearing. We have the agent's comments as
14 well in there, with regards to activities
15 of Vineyard 48. And so what we would like
16 to do is see how the community feels about
17 that kind of activity. Is that an
18 appropriate accessory to the principal
19 agricultural use? Is it directly related
20 to the marketing sales and wine tasting
21 MR. SHIPMAN: Well, I think my
22 opinion on that is obviously going to be
23 biases because of the years of our
24 particular situation has occurred. So I
• 25 don't think that I would give you a fair
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 21
1 answer. Two and a half years ago, I would
• 2 have said, "sure." Let them have a party
3 and you know make money, be productive but
4 when you're put in a position like many of
5 us have been put in, in the last two and a
6 half years, and how the Town government
7 has been manipulated, that is going to be
8 a tough decision for you because now
9 through us, you have now realized our
10 experiences in dealing with this. Left
11 uncontrolled and unmonitored, somebody has
12 ruined it for them. A lot of people I
• 13 think. And you know, a lot of my comments
14 would have been regarding closely on the
15 particular vineyard but we go back to any
16 business that has litigation from New York
17 State Supreme Court allowing 34 vehicles
18 parked on their site and up until two
19 weeks, up to 60 vehicles parked on their
20 site. Not that I am lashing out on Town
21 government but they don't have a plan that
22 they are taking or that we know they are
23 taking and that is the whole thing about
24 being a community. You know, we are not
• 25 giving a lot of information and we become
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 22
1 frustrated and they are telling you what
• 2 is going to be happening. Over two and a
3 half years, they are allowed to do that
4 and we're wondering where justice is and
5 where community in-keep is.
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's difficult
7 we appreciate your circumstances. I
8 think you can appreciate ours. It's hard
9 to make a distinction between the
10 specifics vineyard that precipitated the
11 code interpretation. And a generic
12 response, but what I could ask you and any
. 13 one else in the audience, based upon your
14 personal experiences of being exposed
15 within the content as adjacent neighbors
16 to a vineyard to which the type of
17 activity has been described, has taken
18 place, if you were to live near next to a
19 different winery, let's say, and the same
20 sort of thing is going on, based upon your
21 personal experiences, would you feel that
22 is appropriate?
23 MR. SHIPMAN: I live next to two
24 vineyards and up until these owners took
• 25 affect of Vineyard 48, the owners prior to
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 23
1 that had many functions on Saturday's and
• 2 Sunday's and they were never a problem.
3 And at times we went over to do these
4 things over the week, because that would
5 be our slow time. Our kids were at other
6 functions or grandma's house. And when the
7 owner asked where we were from, "Oh, we're
8 right across the street." "Okay. Here is
9 my card." I forget his name. Tony
10 whatever his name was. "If you have any
11 problems, give me a call and I will take
12 care of it." That is how it was. Up until
• 13 2010-2011, I have very rarely called the
14 police except for a motor vehicle accident
15 at two o'clock in the morning. 2011-2012,
16 I am calling every Saturday.
17 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Let me
18 try and frame this a little differently.
19 What changed the activities in your
20 experience at a winery that was perfectly
21 fine into something that wasn't perfectly
22 fine? What were the circumstances that
23 transformed this into something, in your
24 opinion, that was not appropriate
• 25 accessory to the principal agricultural
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 24
1 use?
• 2 MR. SHIPMAN: When that business
3 plan was allowed to grow and somebody said
4 that they could do whatever they want. And
5 when you call for help from the
6 government, they said that they didn't
7 have a noise ordinance. And then next
8 year, they had a noise ordinance. And then
9 the following year, the noise ordinance
10 would be better. Then again, the noise
11 ordinance can only be measured if the wind
12 is under 10 miles an hour. If the noise is
• 13 for a consistent amount of time. If the
14 supervisor is available to measure the
15 noise. So when the government is
16 constantly chasing one step behind on what
17 the business is doing and they interpret
18 law or Town Code or building occupancies
19 for whatever works for them under the
20 threat of litigation, it extends this
21 process to where we are two and a half
22 years later. So when that business plan
23 grows unchecked. It goes from 200 people
24 to 400 people than 500 people. 600 people,
• 25 buses parked all along Route 48 with
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 25
• 1 people screaming. You have to file a noise
2 complaint and then the dispatcher tells
3 you, "sir, can you turn down your radio?"
4 "No, ma'am. That is the DJ across the
5 street." I have made three complaints
6 about it today.
7 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me see if
8 I can summarize this, intensity,
9 activities on the site
10 MR. SHIPMAN: Frequency.
11 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Frequency of
12 the activity rather than just an
• 13 occasional. We do have special permits
14 from the Town upon review and approval.
15 MR. SHIPMAN: You know what another
16 kicker is, when you ask the officer to
17 have the manager come over and see if this
18 is an acceptable level of noise? I promise
19 I will behave myself and you will be here.
20 I was always told he said he was too busy.
21 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank
22 you for your comments. Please say anything
23 else that you would like to say.
24 MR. SHIPMAN: I am sorry this had to
• 25 get all the way to the Zoning Board of
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September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 26
1 Appeals.
• 2 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you for
3 your comments.
4 MS. MCCABE: My name is Mary Martha
5 McCabe. I grew up in Mattituck and I
6 bought a house in Greenport a number of
7 years, '96. I think what we're talking
8 about here tonight is quality of life on
9 the North Fork. We used to have a sleepy
10 quiet little place here. It's not any
11 more. There is too many people. There is
12 too much traffic. You can't shop on the
• 13 weekends, etcetera. I don't want to
14 filibuster you.
15 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
16 MS. MCCABE: That being said, my
17 parents have passed. My siblings are all
18 out of state. So on holiday's, Labor Day.
19 I go to my aunt and her name is Mary Gray
20 Hudson-McCabe. I am scared to death to
21 drive to Riverhead because on the weekends
22 I watch them come out of the vineyards, go
23 slow and then into the next vineyard. They
24 are driving drunk all over the place. It's
• 25 very obvious if you try and travel west
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 27
• 1 and back home. I have found so many drunk
2 drivers that I can't I'm I don't
3 even take 48. That is so bad. All of them
4 are bad. Not everybody gets a limo or
5 taxi. I have never been to a wine tasting.
6 I don't think drinking and driving is a
7 great thing. The other day, I was in
8 Mattituck off Wisteria at Peg Tuttle's
9 house. I shouldn't name names I will
10 stop right there and I won't name any
11 further names. She just passed away. That
12 being said, the little girl that I was
• 13 speaking with that evening told me about
14 the drunk lady at the vineyard this
15 little girl is about yay big, 9, blond,
16 beautiful little kid. The drunk woman
17 fell on her and scratched her and then
18 passed out and then they carried her away.
19 I said, I would have called 911. That is
20 assault with a deadly weapon, with this
21 woman. So I may speak again, but I think
22 the story sees this. Thank you.
23 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you for
24 your comment.
• 25 MS. HELINSKI: My name is Lori
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 28
• 1 Helinski. I live on County Road 48, next
2 to Vineyard 48. For us being directly
3 next door to the vineyard, it has been
4 going on for a lot longer than that. We
5 have first brought it to our supervisor's
6 attention when he was first running for
7 supervisor. So you know how long it has
8 been going on. I have been involved in
9 agriculture most of my life.
10 Unfortunately, I have to say that we can
11 no longer live here. If you want to ask me
12 if that use for a vineyard is agriculture,
• 13 it's a big fat, no. When we bought that
14 property, we bought it not for
15 development. My (In Audible) six in the
16 morning. I work full-time. I have three
17 kids. To this day, I have to leave my home
18 every Saturday because the music the
19 music is a lot lower now. It's that
20 resounding funk that goes through the
21 ground and the house. It's beyond
22 unbearable. It's not agriculture.
23 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Have you been
24 to other wineries?
• 25 MS. HELINSKI: We live in between
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 29
. 1 (In Audible) and Vineyard 48. Night and
2 day on how those operations are running.
3 They're drunk. They are not tasting wine,
4 number one. Number two, if they are not
5 that drunk just the atmosphere. They are
6 there to learn about farming and growing
7 grapes and what it takes to produce real
8 wine.
9 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do they have
10 music at the other
11 MS. HELINSKI: They have always had
12 music. We have never had an issue. Any
• 13 time I ever have an issue, I can go speak
14 to Ann Marie and her door is always open.
15 Very polite. Very respectful. A wonderful
16 neighbor. I can tell you from experience,
17 night and day. From one neighbor to the
18 next. We tried to approach Vineyard 48
19 and we got absolutely no where. He did not
20 want to speak to anybody.
21 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what I
22 would like to do is try and characterize
23 what is normal and ordinary and accessory
24 at a winery. In an agricultural zone,
• 25 whether it's music I will tell you
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 30
• 1 personally, I am a very big supporter of
2 the wineries here. I love wine and I love
3 our wineries and I am a frequent visitor
4 to different wineries. Music is often
5 MS. HELINSKI: It's a good part and
6 we agree with that. It's how you handle
7 the behavior of your patrons overall and
8 if you can't handle it, the behavior of
9 patrons, then you have no right to be in
10 business. To say that you have no control
11 of what people do at your business
12 location is a joke, and an insult. And if
• 13 you don't have control, maybe you should
14 cut down on the amount of alcohol that you
15 are serving. I don't understand how
16 serving sangria in a pitcher can be
17 misconstrued as tasting wine. So as a
18 vegetable farmer, if I sell vegetables at
19 my farm stand in Southold Town, it has to
20 be off my field. But if I am a winery
21 owner, I can just pull in juice from
22 anywhere. I can sell beer. How is that
23 agricultural? How are you making it a
24 fair playing ground? That is why there are
• 25 30 many wineries out here. We're over
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 31
1 saturated with wineries. And some of them
• 2 are going to be forced to take up business
3 practices because (In Audible) talk about
4 money. You know. As you have in front of
5 you, how much people have to pay just to
6 walk into the door. That's an awful a lot
7 of cash every single weekend. There is
8 more coming down the pipe. I feel it's
9 really unfair for all the farmers in Town
10 who are busting our butts for nothing.
11 Except for supplying our Town and our
12 families with great fresh grown
• 13 vegetables. Wine? People are going to
14 argue with me and say we need wine
15 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I may be one
16 of them.
17 MS. HELINSKI: We don't need the
18 wine. Now, the reputation that Southold is
19 getting is a party town. Greenport this
20 summer has been hopping. It's a party
21 town. I have heard from a lot of the
22 seniors in Greenport. They are fed up.
23 They can't wait to get out. The
24 populations in school are going down. You
• 25 got hard cider coming down the pipe.
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 32
• 1 Vodka. Ten years from now they're going to
2 legalize marijuana. Where are we going to
3 be at? Now we were over saturated with
4 potato farms. Every one went into
5 potato's. A lot of the potato farms went
6 out of business. The wines came in and
7 saved our open space. We got what we asked
8 for. I remember people back then saying,
9 you're going to have a problem. There are
10 going to be a lot of drunks on the road.
11 No, they're just tasting wine. We're
12 flushing Southold right down the toilet.
• 13 As far as I am concerned, I am with the
14 rest of the group, with the "save what is
15 left" sticker. Yeah, cut off the save.
16 What is left? What's left. You can not
17 hear yourself think in this Town. It's
18 ridiculous. You can't even go out on the
19 weekends. Our infrastructure is not meant
20 for all the buses. There are no shoulders
21 on the road. I can go on and on. No, a DJ,
22 dance club is not agriculture. You're not
23 selling your grapes or your wine. I don't
24 have any idea how you can consider that
• 25 agriculture. Two, the cigars. How that is
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 33
• 1 considered local agriculture is beyond me.
2 I don't know. Obviously to me, the way the
3 law is written, you want to sell coasters
4 with your vineyard name on it, you want to
5 sell wine glasses with your vineyard name
6 on it, for marketing purposes we all get
7 that. I have no idea how a cigar factory
8 is part of the winery issue. I think
9 Southold Town better wake up, because as I
10 said, it's all coming down the pipe. We
11 already have the reputation as a party
12 town. It's just going to continue. Thank
• 13 you.
14 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you for
15 your comments.
16 MS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf
17 of Vineyard 48. I have Matt Metz here with
18 me and William Moore. We're both attorneys
19 for Vineyard 48. I will begin with I am
20 going to break this presentation into two
21 segments. The first is with respect to the
22 law and there are certain legal issues
23 here that I want to put on the record. We
24 have memorandums prepared with respect to
• 25 the law. And then I have after that, an
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 34
1 analysis with respect to the questions and
• 2 the issues that were raised by the
3 Planning Board. To begin with, I noticed
4 as you were describing the application
5 consisted of and what was in your file. I
6 was there today and the Advisory Committee
7 had submitted in response to the Zoning
8 Board's request an analysis of what is in
9 their view of a customary accessory use
10 and with respect to the quite frankly,
11 that the Planning Board has put you in a
i
12 position that they're trying to get you to
• 13 legislate.
14 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait. Wait.
15 Wait. I must interrupt you there. First
16 let me
17 MS. MOORE: No, I think it's my
18 presentation. So if you can disagree with
19 me
20 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I am just
21 going to clarify a fact. Neither the
22 Planning Board the Planning Board is
23 not asking us to legislate. We are not
24 here to write legislation. We are here to
• 25 interpret the existing legislation in the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 35
• 1 code. Period. Wait a minute.
2 MS. MOORE: I object to this style
3 only because
4 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can object
5 on the record. That's fine. We have the
6 letter, which I was going to bring up
7 later but you're perfectly welcome to do
8 so. It was the Zoning Board's request
9 MS. MOORE: Yes, it is.
10 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: to go to
11 the Town's Agricultural Advisory
12 Committee, since they certainly have some
• 13 expertise and interest in this definition
14 of agricultural uses. And they did provide
15 us with comments. You certainly got them,
16 and they are a part of our record.
17 Everything that is in that letter is
18 information that we will take to heart and
19 we will consider in our decision. We have
20 nothing to do with what happened at
21 Vineyard 48 per se. It has to do with what
22 happens at wineries throughout the Town
23 based upon the existing code.
24 MS. MOORE: I respectfully disagree
• 25 with how in fact there is an application
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 36
• 1 and this is not a generic application. It
2 is specifically addressing Vineyard 48.
3 It has the Board has required the ZBA
4 post a Vineyard 48 the ZBA noticed all
5 the neighbors around Vineyard 48. There
6 are other wineries that I am sure are
7 going through site plan review. I am not
8 aware of any postings or certifications or
9 any notices of going through any other
10 wineries or any other proposals. So I
11 respectfully disagree with the way that
12 this is being analyzed in the sense that
• 13 it is a "Town-Wide interpretation." That
14 is not the way it looks, smells or sounds.
15 The old saying if it quacks like a duck
16 and walks like a duck, it's a duck.
17 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we will
18 note your objection for the record.
19 MS. MOORE: Thank you. So let me
20 begin with some objections as a matter of
21 law. The first objection is the fact that
22 this submission of a referral of this
23 application is unauthorized. And as a
24 matter of law, the Planning Board Chairman
• 25 has no authority to act on his own. There
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 37
• 1 is no resolution of the Planning Board
2 that I saw. None that was attached to the
3 request. So right off the bat, this
4 request is defective as a matter of law.
5 So I will give you a memo that addresses
6 these points but to touch on them one by
7 one, I don't want to re-read or read to
8 you my memo. Second issue is, we have an
9 issue with statute of limitations. The
10 time periods to file an application
11 questioning the property on a subject
12 property has long passed. The Planning
• 13 Board raised this issue alleging that the
14 activities came to life during a Public
15 Hearing. That is very disingenuous. As far
16 as back as November 14th of 2012, I met
17 with the Planning Board, with the
18 architect and we had what is the
19 pre-submission conference. So right from
20 the beginning, this particular application
21 was being discussed was being discussed
22 in November of 2014. Excuse me, 2012.
23 Thereafter, on February 22, 2013, I was
24 directed to submit my application to the
• 25 Southold Town Building Department and the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 38
• 1 Planning Board under a new procedure,
2 which was obtaining a Notice of
3 Disapproval. In that Notice of
4 Disapproval, the only issue that was
5 raised was the fact that we needed to go
6 through site plan approval review in order
7 to increase our parking, in order to
8 accommodate essentially try to solve
9 the issues that had been raised between
10 2012 and 2013. So in good faith, we began
11 the process and quite frankly, it was a
12 solution an agreeable solution that was
• 13 agreed to between Mr. Isler as the Town's
14 Counsel and Mr. Sullivan and myself, with
15 respect to trying to solve the problems
16 here. Rather than continue with the
17 battles that that were being initiated.
18 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, may I
19 just ask you a question?
20 MS. MOORE: Uh-huh.
21 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Once again,
22 your comments are as though the
23 application in front of us is for Vineyard
24 48, and it is not. I am going to reiterate
• 25 what I said. We have a request based upon
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 39
• 1 what is precipitated from the review of
2 Vineyard 48.
3 MS. MOORE: I understand how
4 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And we're not
5 looking at Vineyard 48 per se. What
6 happened there, happened there. The facts
7 are here. You entered facts into the
8 public record and so did the neighbors.
9 And that is what was given to us in way of
10 a description of activity that we are
11 asked to examine, relative to the existing
12 code as to whether they are ordinary,
• 13 customary accessory to the principal
14 agricultural use of a winery.
15 MS. MOORE: I understand what you're
16 saying
17 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then please
18 address your comment then to perhaps the
19 third section where you were actually
20 going to make reference to the specific
21 questions about whether or not dance
22 parties and club type of activity are
23 accessory, customary and ordinary to
24 wineries
• 25 MS. MOORE: All right. You know what
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 40
• 1 I will do, since it's already I
2 understand. I understand. What I am going
3 to do then is submit for the record our
4 objections, which are the legal objections
5 which ultimately depending on how this
6 develops, we will address in another
7 forum. In the meantime, I am going to put
8 this on the record so at least we can go
9 on for that point.
10 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We would
11 welcome that. And I thank you for putting
12 that in writing so we could consider it in
• 13 larger context. We thank you for doing
14 that.
15 MS. MOORE: So I am now going to
16 assess some of the issues that quite
17 frankly when the Ag Advisory report came
18 in, for the most part precisely clarifies
19 what is customary and accessory in the
20 wine industry. It was surprising. I
21 thought it was fair and balanced and it
22 reflects the agricultural industry.
23 Whether we like it or not. That is
24 there are other regulations that are
• 25 applicable here. What I am finding or what
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 41
• 1 we found so far here is that the issues
2 that the Planning Board has asked you to
3 address are a re-litigation of the same
4 issues raised through multiple venues with
5 respect to Vineyard 48. They have gone
6 through code enforcement. They have gone
7 through Supreme Court action, Justice
8 Court, criminal complaints and now this.
9 So just bear in mind that this is just a
10 continuation of the same arguments, same
11 statements that have been raised at every
12 one of those forums. Let's start with the
• 13 SLA. They are identical arguments that New
14 York State that was submitted to New
15 York State Division of Alcohol Beverage
16 Control. The language that was submitted
17 stated. The complaint was on or before
18 January 1st of 2013, that the winery has
19 been continually operating as a nightclub
20 and DJ and dance party atmosphere. That
21 was an allegation that was raised that the
22 SLA has been hearing and reviewing through
23 multiple hearings and testimony. And
24 quite frankly, has not yet made a
• 25 determination. It's not going as well as I
i
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 42
• 1 think the Town had hoped.
2 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, we're
3 still addressing
4 MS. MOORE: I understand but
5 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I asked that
6 if you would please use your expertise and
7 contribute it towards this hearing in
8 regards to your understanding of the
9 existing code relative to wineries. Not
10 just Vineyard 48. Let us assume that it's
11 not Vineyard 48. Let's assume it's
12 Sampson's Vineyard. Okay. And they operate
• 13 in Southold Town and they have large scale
14 DJ driven dance parties and every week
15 anybody.
16 MS. MOORE: But since we're the
17 problem
18 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is it in your
19 legal opinion a valid accessory use for
20 the principal use of agriculture.
21 MS. MOORE: But you have combined
22 that argument in a generic form with the
23 activities of Vineyard 48. That's the
24 problem.
• 25 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 43
• 1 MS. MOORE: Yes. That is precisely
2 why we have objected throughout. It's not
3 a generic application. You are using
4 Vineyard 48 as a fact of this is what is
5 happening. Rather than
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me give
7 you another example. The Board of Town
8 Trustees came to us a few years back.
9 There was a situation in which litigation
10 was taking place. Residential property.
11 All right. The Trustees decided that they
12 wanted based on the environmental signs to
• 13 have this dock removed as a boat basin and
14 reconfigured. Okay. The owners were
15 concerned that if those docks, which were
16 preexisting nonconforming to the code were
17 removed, they would lose their preexisting
18 nonconforming status. So they came to the
19 ZBA requesting that we look at the
20 existing code and we decide whether or not
21 given the fact that it was not a
22 self-created hardship but the Town itself,
23 who said based on sound environmental
24 science, that we need to revisit the way
• 25 those docks are constructed. And this
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 44
• 1 Board interpreted the code to state that
2 no, they would remain intact, based upon
3 the Trustees requirement. Okay. This is
4 not unusual. And it was a specific
5 application with specific litigants.
6 Specific legal status. Exactly the same
7 here. It was precipitated, a request for
8 the Town Board to determine whether those
9 docks once removed could be reconstructed.
10 Okay. The ZBA. So it was not without
11 precedent. It was not meant to be
12 vindictive or punitively directed towards
• 13 Vineyard 48. It's meant to say that these
14 two kinds of acts of activities what
15 are the consequences based on what the
16 code currently says.
17 MS. MOORE: Let me separate this
18 with the issue of the cigar. Again,
19 Vineyard 48 there are CO's on that. There
20 is a CO that was issued. The Planning
21 Board requested code enforcement. Code
22 enforcement came to a conclusion. So
23 Vineyard 48, we have a CO. The Building
24 Department has determined that the use in
• 25 their mind is an accessory use. So we have
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 45
• 1 that for our client's property. Now, what
2 we again, I can the Ag Committee
3 spoke about farm uses, a customary
4 accessory use. What we found is that there
5 is the use of cigars as pairing. You pair
6 cigars with good wine. Just as you would
7 pair, maybe chocolate. So if we had five
8 examples, the little retail area that has
9 always been retail, sold chocolates there,
10 is that a customary accessory use? The
11 answer is the same for both. So the fact
12 is, there is significant literature and I
• 13 can provide that to you as exhibits
14 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Again, Pat,
15 you're speaking of Vineyard 48
16 MS. MOORE: I
17 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I am going to
18 read something from that letter. I am not
19 going to read the whole thing because it's
20 part of our record, but I want people in
21 our audience to have benefit from some of
22 those comments. All right. The AAC it
23 does go into the history of how a industry
24 or a wine spectator was originally
• 25 published. The whole idea of cigars and
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 46
• 1 wine were quite popular. However it says
2 here, the AAC does not see the hand
3 rolling of cigars at this site an
4 agricultural activity or accessory, as
5 there is no tobacco growing production in
6 the Town of Southold. If there were, a
7 different view might be forthcoming. Or,
8 if the sale of cigars in a winery gift
9 shop because of the wine/cigar marketing
10 combination was listed as an accessory to
11 wine and wine sales, another view might be
12 taken. However, there is no reference to
• 13 support cigars on agricultural use lands
14 in the Town of Southold from tobacco
15 elements not grown here. The wine/cigar
16 rage across the U.S. doesn't make it legal
17 to sell on Town agricultural lands when
18 cigars are not grown in the Town.
19 MS. MOORE: I understand that and
20 what we're saying is there a recognized
21 customary and accessory developed
22 through the use of outside of the Town
23 of Southold. It could be Sonoma Valley. It
24 could be in Oregon. We used to not
• 25 recognize at gas stations that the that
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 47
• 1 the convenience stores was an accessory
2 use and ended up being denied and then the
3 Court's said, of course it is. It's
4 outside the scope of your little the
5 little town. In a general way, because
6 that is what you're asking for, is that
7 use that would be customary and
8 incidental. And what we're saying, yes, it
9 is. Just like if you were selling candy,
10 chocolate, you don't have a cocoa tree
11 growing in the backyard. It's the same
12 thing. And that's the same thing that the
• 13 Ag & Market's Law, that there is the
14 marketing of wine which you compliment
15 other things. Whether it's cigars,
16 chocolate, food. Those are the types of
17 things that the wine industry has
18 recognized as customary and accessory.
19 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So noted, but
20 is it recognized on an agricultural
21 property as a retail store making and
22 selling cigars. Is that permitted in the
23 AC Zone District?
24 MS. MOORE: No. You're wrong. What
• 25 you have significant proof in the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 48
• 1 Zoning Board's own file and
2 Mr. Goehringer, you were Chairman at the
3 time, that when the Biddell's owned this
4 winery they went through several
5 Bidwell's owned the winery, they went
6 through several years of approvals and
7 they first came out here, the wine room
8 was one where it was it wasn't
9 recognized and it was a little skeptical.
10 So Bidwell started with his agricultural
11 development, his winery. And the building
12 that is in the front, the cement block
• 13 building, in the Planning Board's own
14 special permit file has a little drawing
15 and coloring of the same area that is now
16 being used for the accessory sales of the
17 cigars. If you go inside this particular
18 building and that is why it really depends
19 on how it is set up because in this
20 building, what you have is the identical
21 same retail space that was developed back
22 in the 90's when that building was
23 originally built and was originally for
24 the retail sales and display of their
• 25 wine. That is still there. The only
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 49
• 1 difference between the cigar sales, the
2 cabinet that was originally there, is a
3 humidor. That is the only difference.
4 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand.
5 However there is no tobacco. When they
6 were putting wine in there, they were
7 growing grapes there too. No one is
8 growing tobacco on their property.
9 MS. MOORE: You are not getting my
10 point where we're not growing cocoa
11 leaves either. So the reality is that it
12 is a customary accessory sales just like
• 13 corkscrews. Just like glasses. All the
14 tchotchke's that are sold in wineries. It
15 is the equivalent. And the cigar store has
16 been recognized by the Building Department
17 as the equivalent. What we did with the
18 Building Department is to ensure that this
19 was going to continue and be considered as
20 accessory and not a principal use of the
I
21 cigar store. The principal use would have
22 to grow the tobacco leaves in the back.
23 But as an accessory, the sign was modified
24 and the language on the sign changed so
• 25 that it was clear that you're entering
I
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 50
• 1 Vineyard 48 Winery. You are not
2 entering
3 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I really have
4 to stop you.
5 MS. MOORE: No, I am sorry.
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're saying
7 "Vineyard 48," that is all you're focusing
8 on. And I tried to make it clear from the
9 very beginning
10 MS. MOORE: Fine. Then Ackerly Pond
11 Winery. Another winery that we used to
12 know of used to pair chocolates from their
• 13 winery. No difference from the cigars that
14 are being sold at Vineyard 48. These
I
15 accessory uses that are developing with
16 the wine industry is pairing of
17 complimentary services and products. So am
18 I saying that absolutely cigars can be
19 considered an accessory use and what I am
20 going to do, I have the Wine Spectator
21 which has articles about complimenting
22 wines. Multiple articles about sales that
23 are being sold on the Internet with the
24 cigars and the wine industry. And
• 25 hopefully this is going through giving
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 51
• 1 you the kind of data that you can see that
2 cigars and wines go hand and hand.
3 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. We
4 welcome that information and we will put
5 it in our records.
6 MS. MOORE: All right. The next
7 issue is with respect to weddings, dancing
8 and so on. We
9 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just one second.
10 MS. MOORE: Okay.
11 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to
12 point out that I was going to make a
13 distinction and ask you a question,
14 specifically. And again, I am teetering
15 on this between the specifics of Vineyard
16 48, which you seem to obviously
17 understandably want to represent a client,
18 but again, we are really trying to put
19 this into a broader spectrum. In the
20 Public Hearing transcript before the
21 Planning Board, you noted that the cigar
22 store is a separate retail business that
23 is, in your words and Mr. Metz's words.
24 That people enter from the age of 18 and
• 25 on because that is the smoking age
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 52
• 1 permitted. You can only be 21 and older
2 to enter into the winery, and that it is a
3 separate retail enterprise.
4 MS. MOORE: Let me clarify. I am
5 would you control your people. It's very
6 annoying and I am trying to be polite.
7 The cigar store is owned by the principals
8 of Vineyard 48. So just like Harbes as
9 another example, that has different
I
10 principals that own different aspects of
11 their enterprise. You have the berry
12 picking by Patricia Harbe. You have the
• 13 winery by I don't know. You have the
14 food vending. A farm may consist of
15 different entities all under the same
16 ownership of the principal. That is what
17 we have here. The reason that the sales of
18 the cigar is in the little building and
19 not in the tasting room it is
20 regulated, as our winery is regulated, who
21 have very similar laws. Because the wine
22 industry is regulated by the Federal
23 tobacco laws versus the State regulated
24 liquor laws. Their recommendation is to
• 25 keep the cigars in the retail area of the
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 53
• 1 old building. We have the wines the
2 bottles of wines are displayed just as
3 they always have been. However, the
4 tasting can't be you can't bring the
5 cigars into the tasting room. That is
6 something that there are nuisances in the
7 law. That doesn't mean that it's not an
8 accessory use. You use them together. In
9 your own house you can enjoy them. The
10 problem is, you have 18-year-old buy the
11 cigars. Where they cannot come into that
12 tasting room where a 21-year-old can be
• 13 served. That distinction between the age
14 regulations means that they have to be
15 segregated to a certain extent. It doesn't
16 mean that the uses are customary and
17 accessory. It just means for purposes of
18 other regulations, State and Federal,
19 there has to be some segregation. Did I
20 basically describe that? Close enough,
21 okay. Just so that we have on the record
22 and that it's understood, we do have
23 multiple layers of regulations. We have
24 Federal, which is the alcohol Tax and
• 25 Trade Bureau, TTB under the US Department
i
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 54
• 1 of Treasury, which controls the wine
2 permitting process and all wineries have
3 to get that approval. Then you have the
4 State, which is the alcohol beverage law,
5 which is the SLA. And then of course, you
6 have the Ag & Market's Law that provides
7 regulations. So as you can see, it's
8 you have to be practical as well as
9 legally compliant. So that was why we
10 described it as the sales have to be in
11 that small building. With respect can I
12 now go to the dance issue?
• 13 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you can.
14 I just ask that you be as precise as
15 possible, so that other's in the audience
16 might have a chance to address
17 MS. MOORE: Okay. With respect to
18 the dance club, social club, bar issue.
19 The Planning Board use certain criteria to
20 is dancing allowed? Is music allowed?
21 That sort of thing. With respect to the
22 tokens
23 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, you're
24 going back to Vineyard 48. I understand
• 25 your frustration but
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 55
• 1 MR. MOORE: Let me make a comment.
2 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You have to
3 state your name, please.
4 MR. MOORE: William Moore, for the
5 applicant. What the Planning Board did in
6 it's request for your interpretation was
7 to characterize the use as a dance club,
8 DJ, bar or whatever you want to call it
9 and in doing so, gave you a series of
10 bullet points, which in it's opinion,
11 created an ora, by which it came to the
12 conclusion, that we think this is a DJ,
• 13 dance club/bar. And in doing so, it
14 addressed a series of points. One of which
15 was the sangria. That was addressed by the
16 committee. It's actually a product that
17 was sold here. It's not a concocted
18 beverage. The point was, the Planning
19 Board had given you a characterization
20 which you are saying the facts on the
21 records and we want those facts and we're
22 looking at what it is that they have
23 described (In Audible) could we all
24 agree that nightclubs aren't allowed in
25 vineyards? Well, you look at the hours of
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 56
• 1 operation of this place and it wouldn't
2 fall under the definition of a night club.
3 I don't have the point is, Pat is
4 trying to address how it is characterized.
5 Whether or not and this is the problem,
6 it's not a if you were asked
7 generically what are the ordinary
8 customary accessory uses for wineries in
9 the Town of Southold. If that query was
10 put to you without having the load
11 question, you can sit there and answer
12 that. At this point, you're legislating.
• 13 The Planning Board has laid the question
14 before you, not, "please tell us what is
15 an ordinary accessory because we're trying
16 to understand as we're looking into this
17 thing?" They placed specific
18 characterizations and uses for you and Pat
19 wants to talk about what it is in those
20 descriptions.
21 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well yes.
22 MR. ISLER: Madam Chairperson. Frank
23 Isler, counselor for the Town. The
24 question before the Board and assume the
• 25 following facts, whether they're at
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 57
• 1 Vineyard 48 or in Mars, are these facts
2 if a place were to operate, would these
3 set of facts, not that there are places
4 that are necessary operating under these
5 set of facts, but if there were a place, a
6 vineyard in this Town that operated under
7 a certain fact and they have told you
8 what they are, please tell the Planning
9 Board is that a permitted use or a
10 permitted accessory use to a winery. You
11 are not making a finding by answering that
12 question, whether Vineyard 48 is
• 13 conducting themselves in that way. That is
14 not the issue. We're not here today to
15 discuss is Vineyard 48 handing out tokens.
16 Is there dancing parties at Vineyard 48?
17 That is not the issue before this Board.
18 The issue before this Board is assume a
19 place does have the following ten
20 different things, would that be, in your
21 judgement, an interpretation of the
22 current code, a permitted use in a winery.
23 That is I believe the applicant's
24 attorney's have a misrepresentation
• 25 we're assuming that is Vineyard 48 and
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 58
• 1 we're not. Not whether Vineyard 48 is
2 doing it. Not whether if Vineyard 48 has a
3 cigar store and it does or doesn't have a
4 CO. This has nothing to do with the
5 operational facts as Vineyard 48. You are
6 just being asked to assume these facts
7 generically and if a place is doing tokens
8 as a cover charge and playing loud music
9 and if you're dancing and doing this, is
10 that a permitted use. That's all. With
11 all do respect to counsel, we're not
12 saying and we're not making any findings
• 13 about Vineyard 48 in this process.
14 MR. MOORE: Let me just make a
15 comment on that one briefly. If this were
16 benign as an application as that, as Pat
17 said, Vineyard 48 wouldn't have a notice
18 posted on it and the neighbors wouldn't
19 have received legal notices. Not really
20 the quite benign application that I
21 thought it really were. The Town needs to
22 address on a comprehensive level what it
23 needs to agricultural businesses to look
24 like. That is why I say, you're being
• 25 pushed into the legislative field right
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 59
• 1 here. You have to look at what is being
2 characterized there. And I think you were
3 giving, Madam Chairperson, a short trip of
4 that report, you didn't want to overwhelm
5 with reading the whole thing
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's part of
7 our records.
8 MR. MOORE: It's part of your
9 records and I ask you to give great
10 consideration to it. We're passionate
11 because we're here defending an applicant
12 where we seen the process where the
• 13 Planning Board has suspended it's
14 application while this benign question is
15 being asked. I take exception. It's
16 important that this is not the way to be
17 doing it.
18 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you for
19 your comment.
20 Is there anyone else in the audience
21 who would like to address this Board?
22 Please come forward and state your name.
23 MS. MCCABE: My name again is Mary
24 McCabe. I am known as my Ms. (In Audible).
• 25 My mom was Pat McBridge from the potato
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 60
• 1 farm. When one speaks at these meetings,
2 do they have the right to go on for
3 ballbuster, two hours once they have the
4 floor? I really don't understand.
5 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that a
6 question?
7 MS. MCCABE: Yeah.
8 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One of the
9 nicest things now we have (In Audible).
10 MS. MCCABE: Yeah, I am sure you're
11 sorry.
12 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Public
• 13 Hearing, the reason why the neighbors were
14 notified is because under the law, when
15 the Zoning Board holds a Public Hearing
16 and it's in a quorum, then we're obligated
17 under the law to post that to never make
18 decisions without benefit of a Public
19 Hearing. We're before the public because
20 it's a democratic process. So that all
21 interested parties can come before the
22 Board to be heard and their opinions
23 considered, with fairness and an open
24 mind. With regards to time, it is my
• 25 feeling that although we try to pose it,
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 61
• 1 and provide ample opportunity for everyone
2 to be heard, there are no time limits per
3 se. People have the right to be heard. And
4 we, as a Board, are very patient, and are
5 willing to dedicate as much time as
6 necessary for people to be properly heard.
7 Some people take short time and some
8 people take long time. There is, you know,
9 it's my job to try and conduct this in a
10 way that is respective of people's
11 opinions, doesn't allow it go completely
12 haywire, overboard with regards to time.
• 13 Usually, it's because we have another
14 Public Hearing coming up, but this evening
15 we don't. But to answer your question, it
16 depends on what people want to say.
17 MS. MCCABE: Thank you. When I said,
18 filibuster earlier, it was a joke and then
19 it became reality. So I really had to ask
20 that question, and it's a school night and
21 I am a single mother and I am handicapped.
22 So I have to go.
23 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Again, the
24 reason why we post these meetings, it was
• 25 in the Suffolk Times
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 62
• 1 MS. MCCABE: I know.
2 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're
3 obligated to do that so that all
4 interested parties can be informed about
5 the proceedings about Town government.
6 And if you have anything to say about it,
7 regardless of your point-of-view, you have
8 an opportunity to come before this Board
9 in a democratic process. That is what a
10 Public Hearing is about.
11 MS. MCCABE: Thank you very much.
12 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
• 13 MS. HELINSKI: Lori Helinski,
14 Cutchogue. I just want to be clear. There
15 are many accessory uses that could be
16 compared to a farm. One is food. Food and
17 wine. We don't allow restaurants at
18 wineries. The farm that I was employed at
19 was having a wine tasting with the fresh
20 vegetables to seven people on a Saturday
21 and got closed down by Southold Town. And
22 then I go two miles down the road and not
23 be able to pull into my driveway because
24 the winery next door. I don't understand.
• 25 It seems like some forms of agriculture
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 63
• 1 can do whatever they like and want to do
2 it. That is the general feeling amongst a
3 lot of us. You should do it for all.
4 Make it a fair playing field. To try and
5 explain better the music and the dances.
6 Being sandwiches between two wineries,
7 yes, I do hear music from two wineries.
8 Obviously the one closest is the most
9 loudest. And it's also the type of music.
i
10 It's the bass that doesn't go away. Then
11 the noise ordinance that was finally
12 passed, can't be picked up but you can
• 13 feel it in my home. Feel free to come in
14 and check it out any time you want. That
15 is completely different from a wedding,
16 playing wedding music. How you can
17 legislate that, I don't know. How you can
18 teach people character? How to act in
19 public? I don't know. How you can
20 legislate that? It's beyond me. I know
21 first-hand how much legislation is coming
22 out of all departments. I know how costly
23 it is. I can only look at the amount of
24 money that the wine industry and the crowd
• 25 that is in Albany, I quake in my boots for
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 64
• 1 Southold Town because it's not good for us
2 at all. It's not going to be good when
3 you have the State coming down and telling
4 you what you have to do over local law.
5 We're the one's that have to deal with it.
6 They live in Albany. It's the dollar.
7 It's how you vote. It's where you spend
8 your money. If I need to make it more
9 clear, I will put it in writing. Please
10 feel free, I am listed.
11 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
12 MS. SUMMERS: Lynn Summers,
• 13 Mattituck. In 43 years that I have lived
14 in this Town, I have worked for six
15 vineyards. Three that happen to be in the
16 Town of Southold. At all times, every
17 vineyard owner and every one who worked
18 with me was given strict instructions of
19 the decency, the respect for neighbors.
20 Food and use of pairing of foods,
21 sometimes chocolates and many times they
22 were not sold. They were just given to
23 accessorize what took place. But I have to
24 say, as a whole, every vineyard that I
• 25 have worked at or attended, has
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 65
• 1 non-disgraced itself. I was literally
2 almost killed last October 7th in front of
3 Vineyard 48. It was incredible. And Bill
4 you were there I turned to look to my
5 directly in front of me and the limo
6 came directly into westbound lane, missing
7 the eastbound lane. And two cars, we
8 pulled up to the other side of the road.
9 And then at that time and it was like a
10 wreck. There were cars all over. Prior to
11 my incident, I had found out from Southold
12 PD that there had been an incident that
• 13 took place, the Fire and Rescue people had
14 been to Vineyard 48 because someone had a
15 seizure and at that time, another limo had
16 hit a vehicle with one of the volunteer
17 fire. But I can tell you that in every
18 place that I have worked, we had security,
19 learning, talking to limo drivers. We
20 would not take limo drivers who were
21 disrespectful and brought in drunks. That
22 is all I have to say. I am very proud of
23 most of the vineyards. I think they all
24 deserve respect and admiration because
• 25 they're just trying to do a business like
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 66
• 1 anybody else. And for the most part,
2 respect agriculture and support it
3 greatly.
4 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there
5 anyone else who would like to address the
6 Board? Are there any comments from the
7 Board?
8 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just think
9 that it was a very good evening in
10 reference to some of the things that we're
11 dealing with. That we have been dealing
12 with in general. Traffic of course being
• 13 one of them. I have had the distinct
14 pleasure, as is the Chairperson, in
15 enjoying wine at the vineyards in Southold
16 Town. And in reality, I think what
17 Ms. Summers said is primarily what I can
18 say from what I have seen from the
19 vineyards that I have been to on a
20 weekend. And to be honest with you, the
21 majority of all of those vineyards they
22 are very much in favor of an operation
23 that is probably more family oriented and
24 a groups's of people that are there to
• 25 enjoy the vineyard, the sun, the grapes.
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 67
• 1 There is something very special about
2 sitting in the back of a vineyard at the
3 rear, a way away from the road and
4 observing the grapes as they're growing
5 and enjoying wine at that vineyard during
6 that particular process. I find it almost
7 safer to be honest with you, which is
8 probably not the best word to use. Sure I
9 have seen people dancing and enjoying
10 every aspect of these vineyards. Those
11 are the areas that I am going to focus on
12 when I make my decision along with this
• 13 absolutely wonderful Board, in dealing
14 with the aspects of what is customarily to
15 the vineyard. I did have the great
16 experience of going to Napa Valley this
17 time last year, and I observed what they
18 sell, what they use and what they display.
19 And just as the prior Town Board members
20 which some of them are not with us
21 anymore, of which was a great friend of
22 mine. She used some of that aspect in
23 dealing with the legislation that we have
24 today, and I will be dealing with that
• 25 aspect. And I appreciate everybody's
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 68
• 1 comments, as I am sure the rest of the
2 Board does.
3 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anything else
4 from anyone?
5 (No Response.)
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no
7 further comments okay.
8 MS. MCCABE: Thank you, Ms. Weisman.
9 Again, it's Mary McCabe from Greenport,
10 formerly of Mattituck. If someone has a
11 permit for a minor renovation, and I might
12 not be in the right place to ask this
• 13 question, bear with me, and it suddenly
14 becomes a mic-mansion and your perception
15 is that it's about half house and half
16 land. What recourse does one have? Is
17 this where you go or the Town Board
18 meeting?
19 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: render a
20 Notice of Disapproval if it's not a proper
21 size
22 MS. MCCABE: I did that already.
23 Thank you.
24 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We don't act
• 25 unless we're doing what we're doing
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 69
• 1 tonight. Unless we have an official
2 document from code enforcement official or
3 the Building Department.
4 MS. MCCABE: Thank you. I
5 understand.
6 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no
7 further comments, I am going to make a
8 motion to close this hearing and reserve
9 decision to a later date.
10 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
11 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ali in favor?
12 MEMBER DANTES: Aye.
• 13 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Aye.
14 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Aye.
15 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Aye.
16 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
17
18
19 (Whereupon, the September 26, 2013,
20 Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of
21 Appeals concluded at 8:37 P.M.)
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• 25
September 26, 2013 Regular Meeting 70
• 1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
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4 I, Jessica DiLallo, certify that the
5 foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public
6 Hearings was prepared using required electronic
7 transcription equipment and is a true and accurate
8 record of the Hearings.
9
10 Signature4-
11 Jessica DiLallo
12
• 13
14 Jessica DiLallo
Court Reporter
15 PO Box 984
Holbrook, New York 11741
16
17 Date: October 8, 2013
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