Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-04/01/1974Southold Town Planmng Board SouTHOLD, L. 1., N. Y. 11971 PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS John Wlckham, Chairman Henry Meisa Alfred Grebe Henry Raynor Frank Coyle MINUTES SOUTHOLD TOWN PLAA~]ING BOARD April 1, 1974 A regular meeting of the Southold Town Planning Board was held at 7:30 p.m., Monday, April 1, 1974, at the Town Clerk's Office, N~in Road, Southold, New York. There were present: Messrs. John Wickham, Chairman; Henry Moisa, Vice,Chairman; Henry Raynor; Alfred Grebe; Frank S. Coyle. Sleepy Hollow. Final map of subdivision ~ hearing held. The hearing was called to order at 7:30 with the reading of the legal notice. NOTICB 1S PIERBBYGIVBN that pursuant to S ction 276 of the Town Law, a public hearing will be held by the Southold ToWn Planning Board at the Town Office, Main Road, Southold, New York, in said Town on the 1st day of April, 1974 at 7:30 o'clock in the evening of said day, on the question of the final approval of the following plat: Plat of property owned by Leo Kwasneski, entitled "Sleepy Hollow", consisting of a parcel of land situated at Southold~ in the Town of Southold, Suffolk County, New York. Any person desiring to be heard on the above matter should appear at the time and place above specified. Dated: March 15, 1974 BY ORDER OF THE SOUTHOLD TOWN PLANNING BOARD JOHN WICKligM, CHAIRMAN Affidavits of publication were presented from the Suffolk Weekly Times and the Long Island Traveler --.Mattituck Watchman. Copy of the letter to the Planning Board -~ ~2- ~=~il 1, 1974 attorney informing him of the hearing date was presented. Letter was read from the Suffolk County Department of Planning was read stating that they did not have the clearance from the New York State Department of Environ- mental Conservation dated March 12. The Planning Board letter of transmittal dated Nfarch 13th enclosing same was noted. The letter from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation was read. The Certificate from the Bureau of Environmental Health Services was noted. Mr. Wickham: I wonder ~f these lots have any limitations on them, lots 11, 12, 13 and 14. This Board will probably require it to be shown on the map. I will read for information a letter under date of October 1~ 1973 to Raymond Dean, Superintendent of Highways. On September 18, 1973, the Planning Board on a motion regularly made and seconded RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant preliminary approval to Sleepy Hollow, owned by Leo Kwasneski, situated at Southold, subject to the following conditions: ~nat the proposed roadway be named. That the problems with Glen Road be worked out with the Town Super. intendent of Highways and the Town Highway Committee. Mr. Donald Frederick~ one of the residents of the Wilsberg development said at the meeting that he owns Lot 35 which is adjacent~ and that when the residents bought they bought knowing that they had private roads. He approves of the layout of the proposed subdivision but is concerned that Glen Road will become part of the other road as, according to the map, these r~ads connect. /s/ John Wickham, Chairman Mr. Wickham: Letter under date of October 11, 1973 from Raymond C. Dean to the Planning Board stated that it would be illegal for Glenn Road to be used as it is a private.road. I will now open the hearing to the public and we will listen first to anyone who may wish to make statements in opposition to this subdivision. Mr. William Pfeffer~ Glenn Road, Southold: Am I correct that nothing you have read indicates there will be any access to Glenn Road on which I live? Mr. Wick_ham: The statement from the Town Attorney says it will be illegal for this developer to connect with Glenn Road and from a practical point of view we have had this come up in other cases and we have insisted that a rattier be put across with reflectors~ etc.~ because with all due respect to all parties concerned ten or twenty years from now it is almost certain that demands will be made to the Town Board to open the roadway. This Board has been party to this sort of thing so many times there is no question about it. Mr. Keith Hartge, Willow Pond Lane, Southold: We have met at Hall's Marsh as a committee. They were hoping there would be some type of bordering along the end near the conservatory or, if possibte~ some type of buffer zone because they want to keep it natural for the schools and other scientists who would wish to do study. We would like as much as possible to keep it in its natural environment. This is not in opposition but what some of our thinking was. Planning Board -3- <~ ~;April 1, 1974 Mr. Wickham: It was the thought of the Planning Board originally that the whole end be park and playground for the use of the residents of this sub-- division as required by law. There is no provision in the subdivision law to make park and pIayground for any persons other than those residing in the subdivision so it is related to the total area of the subdivision. These developers have actually provided more park and playground than they are required by a wide margin. At the same time, there might be a question about how useful it was unless you want a waterfront playground. Mr. Richard Green: .I own a piece of property that one of the lots borders. Is there anyway I can get access at a future time? I own property in West Creek Estates. Mr. Wickham: In this Town a subdivider may not leave a narrow strip between his highway and adjacent property owners so you have access to the road that he lays out. If he has a private road then your use of it might be limited but he cannot leave a narrow strip between your property and the road. What you are saying is the reverse of Mr. Fredericks. Presumably, you would like access. We know from past experience that this will work out. Mr. Raynor: Should Grissom Lane become a dedicated highway to the Town you would have access. Mr. Wickham: You could use it at the discretion of the developer. Mr. Green: The piece I am speaking of is only the triangular piece. Mr. Raynor: Until it is dedicated to the Town it is private property. Mr. Wickham: He can allow you to use it. Ms. Shirley Bachrach (League of Women Voters): The area noted as the park and playground area, since that is a marshy area, its designation of park and playground is grata£tous, is it not, because it would not be used actually for a playground area. Would it not be more likely to be used for a study area perhaps~ as suggested? Mr. Wickham: It was the thinking of this Board that waterfront recreation is in great demand and this might be the very best kind of recreation because we do not have enough waterfront property for all the people in the Town of Sou/hold and this way we can have the waterfront for the use of all home owners in a subdivision. Ms. Bachrach: But that would be specifically for those home owners. Mr. Wickham: Nature Conservancy owns the adjacent property and how they handle it is their business. Our problem is to do the best we can for the people in this subdivision and not in the Town of Southold in general or any other group or agency. Ms. Bachrach: This would merely border on their property? Mr. Wickham: Right. Mr. Raynor: The park and playground should be put in for preserved area. We are aware of the geography. It was designed to go around this iow lying area. Planning Board _~ ~4~ April 1, 1974 Mr. Green: There is a considerable part of h~ghland. I think he has laid out a nice development and we only didn't want a throughway so you came back the same way you came in. I think he did a nice job of laying it out. Mr. Raynor: As long as Glenn Road is privately maintained, the people can restrict it any way they want. Mr. Fredericks: Mr. Wilsberg says he is going to continue. Mr. Wickham: Is there anyone who would like to speak in favor of this subdivision? Mr. Gary Olsen: I am an attorney representing the applicant, Leo Kwasnesk~. I think the Board is very familiar with this entire subdivision since, ac¢ordin§ to Mr. Kwasneski, he first started discussing the subdivision somewhere back around April of 1973 and we have been before this Board p%riodically since. I think that the final layout is a creation both of the desires of the subdividers and the wishes of the Planning Board. It is attractive and meets all the minimum standards. It has been approved by the Sg£folk County Department of Health and the Environmental Conservation Department and, accordingly~ I would request that since there is no objection tha't this subdivision be approved as submitted. Mr. Pfeffer: What is the resolution of the letter that you read that the applicant should get in touch with the Superintendent of Highways? '7, Mr. Wickham: This was at the time of the preliminary approval. We are required by State law to have a hearing on preliminary approval and any problems are worked out and resolved before the final map is presented. It always happens that there are some left to be worked out and so quite often actions taken giving final approval are subject to a few minor points and also subject to notice of receipt of the bond by the Town Board. This usually takes weeks if not a month or two so we have plenty of chance to work these things out. ~4s. Bachrach: You read that you did not receive a letter from the County on the Tidal Wetlands Act. Mr. Wickham: We have received a clearance from the State under the Tidal Wetlands Act. We have not received final approval of the County Planning Commission because we neglected to send the County a copy of the State approval. It hasn't had time to get back to us. Mr. Olsen: To answer Mr. Pfeffer's question, I believe your question was c~oncerned with the original letter from Mr. Dean at which time it was indicated that the road would merge With Glenn Road. To avoid the issue a~ to whether or not we would be using Glenn Road property~ we have redesigned that portion with a turnaround on our own prQperty. Mr. Wickham read the following memorandum to Mr. Raymond Dean from Lawrence Tuthill, P.Eo~ dated March 31, 1974: Re: Subdivision , Sleepy Hollow Meeting at site at a.m, March 25 with Mr. Dean, Judge Martin Surer, Town Highway Committee; Mr. Frank S. Coyle: Town Planning Board Member and L. M. Tathill Planning Board _~ -5~ April 1, 1974 The following recommendations and comments were made. 1. That recharge basins be provided in place of leaching basins except on Willow Pond Lane at the entrance. 2. That the high point of grading on Willow Pond Lane be at the deflection (900 turn). 3. That the turnaround be provided at the end of Grissom Lane. 4. That the park and playground area be more clearly layed out in the field. At the present it appears to be mostly wetlands. Mr. Wickham: We need the approval of the Highway Committee as well as the Town Superintendent of Highways so it is to be expected that the Planning Board will insert these conditions as conditions of approval. The Highway Committee told me they would not any longer approve leaching basins. Mr. Wickham: If there is no one else who wishes to speak I will declare the hearing closed and the board will discuss it later in the evening and notify the people involved. Casola. Gary Olsen, Esq. appeared. On this subdivision, because the report of the Soil and Water Conservation District showed a very high water table and because we felt there might be some question about the survey as presented by Young and Young dated February 20, 1974, we had our engineer go down and check it and I have a report under date of March 31st. The following letter from Lawrence Tuthill~ P.E. dated March 317 1974 was received. In accordance with the request of Mr. John Wickham, I measured the water table-on March 31 on the property of Robert Casola between Orchard Street and King Street in Orient at the existing test well and in the approximate location of test holes #1 and #3 as shown on plan dated Feb. 20~ 1974 and also halfway between these two areas. At the approximate location of test hole #2~ high salt grass was growing indicating a very high water table. The measurement from the surface to the ground water is as follows: a. At the test well 20~ b. Vicinity of test hole #1 28" c. Halfway between test holes #t & #3 18" d. Vicinity of test hole #3 22" Planning Board -~ ~6- April l, 1974 Mr. Wickham: It is obvious to us one or two things . either the map is in error or ~e~the tests were made under very different conditions because of this last one in the vicinity of test hole #3 being 22" and the one on the map showing four feet~ this is less than half. Obviously~ it would throw out all the computations of the County Board of Health because they are based on four feet to water if~ in fact~ it is only 22 inches. This is when they were tested yesterday and~ bear in mind~ that we have had several days of rain. Mr. Olsen: It looks like our tests were done in December of 1973. Mr. Wickham: We have a report by the Soil and Water Conservation District which showed in one case 12 inches and yours showed nothing like that and then we have one from our engineer which shows 207 25~ 18 and 22 and the average here is certainly less to water which has been our contention all the time that most of this land was too low. I can only suggest that you have your engineer verify these figures because if they were taken in an extremely dry spell they could very well be very different from existing figures. On the other hand~ if Larry took them after a three day easterly Storm they could be higher. We accept that and somewhere inbetween there could possibly be a more realistic figure. One other thing I would like to see some control on is levels. We have run into a problem before now where a surveyor used an assumed datum and it wasn't very r~listic. I really don't know what Young and Young used in this particular case but it is obvious that there is too much discrepancy with the-measurements made by our engineer yesterday and the figures shown on this map. We must get closer than that. Ms. Bachrach: Did you happen to see last Saturday's Newsday about federal flood plan insurance showing Southold doesn't have its area mapped. Have they sent for mapping on this? Mr. Wickham: The Suffolk County Soil and Water Conservation District made a map of all the flood plains of all the eastern part of the county and practically all of Southold Town except for the hills along the Sound are in the flood plain. Fifteen feet or below is right up to the Main Road in New Suffolk and Mattituck and Southold, This is all flood plain on what they submitted. This report has been officially presented that all of Southold below contour of fifteen feet £s flood plain. Ms. Bachracb: It would protect the Town to know that certain land is not insurable because it is below the flood plain level and anyone who wants to gamble should not be rescued by the Town or the County. Mr, Wickham: Th~,s flood plain determination is much more complex than appears on the surface. In the Town of Southold we are not exposed to ocean hurricanes. They figure the fifteen feet is adequate elevation and probably much higher than we would seriously recommend. In Westhampton Beach twenty feet is not adequate. In every vicinity because of the contour of the lgnd and openness to the ocean you have to take a different figure. The hurricane of 1938 was twenty, fi~e feet in Westhampton Beach and it was substantially lower in New Suffolk. We have had higher tides subsequent to that time but we are fortunate that we are not open to the real hone~ to goodness hurricane. Planning Board -~ ~7~ ._/ April 1, 1974 Mr. Wickham: I would suggest that when Young and Young come down they pick up Larry Tuthill and go together. Mr. Olsen: I would like to meet with the Planning Board and the Town Attorney on this matter. I have discussed this file with him and he has some ideas and we all have ideas and I think this particular case is an example why it is good to have the Town Attorney at hand. I would like permission to set up an appointment at everyone's convenience to discuss this file. I have been before this Board every meeting since August and I am basically where I was in August. Mr. Wickham: We told you every time it was too low. Mr. Olsen: I realize the rules and regulations of the Town and covenants and restrictions might be a good way to work this out. I think we ought to sit down with him. Bverytime there is something else the map should show. I have some reservations about the whole minor subdivision in the Town. I would like your permission to set up this meeting. However you want it. We have to sit down and thrash around these legal questions with the Town Attorney present. When can I set it up? Bven if we came back and convinced you these figures are accurate I still have a feeling that we will be no further ahead than we are now at extra expense. Alot of money has been spent in prese~tin~ this to the Board. Mr. Wickham: We told you from the first we thought this was a borderline case. I would be happy to meet with you at almost anytime with Mr. Tasker. Mr. Olsen: I will set it up and give you a call and maybe set it up in a week or so. Mr. Wickham: I do feel this report of Larry's casts a shadow on the-whole approval of the County Board of Health because it is based on this map. Mr. Olsen: The point is the Department of Health at any given time will have a set of regulations for minimum standards. What-its standards will be for individual owners will vary a year from now from what it is today. I think Mr. Moisa's point is well taken. I think the covenants and restrictions should be worked out that everyone should be put on notice that they have to meet the requirements with fill rather than setting any particular figure. The language we can work out with the Planning Board. My feeling is that all other aspects meet the present Town minimum standards. I h~ve urged that approval be given to this subdivision as a matter of law and yet I still do not have approval even with the contingency of working out language of covenants and restrictions and that is why I feel meeting w~th the Town Attorney will be helpful and I will set one up. Mr. Wickham: At this time why don't you speak to Young and Young about this? Mr. Olsen: I will speak to them tomorrow. Planning Board April 1, 1974 .~.lijah's Lane Bst.atep.,. Seq~ionr~.i. Joe Saland appeared. Mr. Saland discussed with the Board his proposed Section II. He was told to check with the Superintendent o£ Iiighways on the layout of the proposed roads. Joe McCari subdivision at Laurel Lake. Joe Saland appeared. There was much discussion about this proposed subdivision. Some of the items covered were the Long Island Expressway, high voltage wires, many rights-of-way. Col. Ted Dowd subdivision. Tom Daly, Esq. appeared. Mr. Daly: This map meets the requirements for cluster zoning. Mr. Wickham: It does but it would be better as one-acre zoning. Mr. Daly: If he can get the twelve lots in, I will go along with one-acre. Mr, Young of Young & Young: The main reason we went this way was to try and keep it open space. The reason I didn't show any drainage is we didn't make a decision where it should be. Casola. Mr. Young: It was referred to mean sea level by Van Tuyl. The test wells were dug by Casola. ,Mr. Wickham: We would like to have you go down with Larry. Mr. Young. I would be glad to. Everything looked good until I saw this report. Mr. Wic~ There is too much discrepancy. at it ~~ three days of easterly storm° to live there when the wind is east. We recognize that Larry looked The people are going to have Mr. Young: I will check that out and dig some test h~les. Lucile Mosba~k. Rudy Bruer, Esq. appeared. Mr. Wickham: I was unhappy because you told us you were going to request a variance on Lot #4. We told you to make four lots and you are notifying us that you are going to redivide one... Mr. Bruer: Mr. Gillispie told me it was a good idea to make five lots out of the whole thing and we got to a point where they couldn't grant variances because they were taking over a function of this Board and they suggested Planning Board April t~ 1974 that I come back. They said if I came back with this proposal that I would be able to come in and get a division of the other lot and we~would covenant that there would be no further division of the property. Officially, I am coming in here for a four lot minor and I wanted to be'above board and not to say that I did something behind your back. This is the intent on this and it was the intent when I went through the expense of getting a survey. We have felt that five lots would be a reasonable request because you have four existing residences here. Mr. Raynor: It is not in our jurisdiction to grant a five lot minor. Mr. Bruer: Technically~ it is~ but I am asking for a four lot minor and I will be going in to the Board of Appeals and they said as iong as this Board would not be against it. I have two existing cottages on this lot and the rest is a beautiful layout~ I think. What we are actually doing is eking for one more house on it. Mr. Wickham: It is not unreasonable. Mr. Wickham: Do you have any format of the covenant that you would file with us restricting lots numbers one and two so that they would never be subdivided? Mr. Bruer: We could give you something in recordable form to file with this map. Mr. Wickham: We will take action later tonight and let you know. You have discussed this with the Appeals Board before you brought it here. Their position as stated in their letter to us dated October 18~ 1973 is: "This would require lot area variances for two existing cottages. Two other lots would be substantially larger than 407000 square feet and would be covenanted to prevent further division. "The Board of Appeals position is that this proposal is a desirable project and that area variances for these small lots should be granted subject to Planning Board approval of the whole project." .fiugu~t Acres. George Wetmore appeared. He has given three copies of the map to the Superintendent of Highways and ~we will await his recommendation before we take further action, l~r. Wetmore will be informed. Orient Point. Richard Cron, Esq. and Mr. Wilsberg appeared. Mr. Cron: We tried to comply with just about everything that was recommended in Larry TuthilI's letter except the set~ack. I did check when I was down to Van Tuyl's and Land's End runs from high water mark and not from the bank. On the Bay side it is not possible. I think they put in all the leaching basins, etc. I made the observation that raising and running eastward would not be practical on the road profiles. Planning Board ~10~ .~April 1, 1974 The Board then checked the map against Larry Tuthill's recommendations. Mr. Raynor: Do you propose to eventually dedicate the highways? Mr. Cron: No. Mr. Cron will get 12 copies of the preliminary map to the Planning Board. After a recommendation from the Superintendent of Highways~ we will set the preliminary hearing. Mr. Moisa made a motion, seconded by Mr. Coyle and carried to approve the minutes of the regular meeting of March 14, 1974. On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED that Lawrence Tuthill, P. B., be requested to draw up a bond estimate for the roads in the S_~.eepy Hollow subdivision subject to the recommendations of the Superintendent of Hig~wk~s. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Moisa, Raynor, Grebe, Coyle. On motion made by Mr. Coyle: seconded by Mr. Raynor~ it was RESOLVED that approval be given on the preliminary map of Greenfields at Southold, New York~ dated March 5, 1974 and revised March 11',' 1974. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Messrs. Wickham, Moisa, Raynor~ Coyle, Grebe. James Dean RLr. Raynor went down and checked the property and drew lines on the map from the road to high salt grass. Mr. Wickham directed that the following letter be written to Gary Olsen, Esq. "Our Board has investigated this as per the sketch map submitted March 14~ 1974 and dated July 31, 19757 amended January 8~ 1974. '~ue to the lowness of the land and the fact that one of the well points for the Beachwood complex is located in the close proximity.of lot D~ it is the feeling of this Board that there are~ in fact~ only two buildable lots on this piece of property. We suggest that the property be submitted as a two lot subdivision making the most of the highest land.~' Planning Board ~ -11- ~ April 1, 1974 On motion made by ]v lt. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Moisa, it was R~SOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board approve the minor subdivision of Lucile Mosback located at East Marion, New York subject to receipt of a legal instrument stating that lots one and two will not be further subdivided. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Moisa, Raynor, Grebe, Coyle Jack Levin. It was directed that Mr. Levin be notified that he should submit an amended site plan. The following letter dated March 19, 1974 to the Planning Board from Raymond C. Dean, Superintendent of Highways was read. Gentlemen: I would like to suggest the following recommendations before the Town accepts any new roads. 1. Ail street signs be purchased by the developer of any subdivision before the Town accepts the roads. 2. Ail traffic control signs be~purchased by the developer of any sub- division before the Town accepts the roads. 3. Burning of all brush and stumps to be on the site of any subdivision as the accumulation of brush and stumps has become too excessive for the Lake Lodge Brush Disposal Area. Iiindly advise me of the above suggestions. /s/ Raymond C. Dean On motion made by Mr. Grebe, Seconded by Mr. Raynor~ it was P. ESOLVED that the following be adopted into the rules and regulations of the Planning Board: (1) Ail street signs be purchased by tbs developer of any subdivision before the Town accepts the roads; (2) Ail traffic control signs be purchased by the developer of any subdivision before the Town accepts the roads; (3) Burning of all brush and stumps to be on the site of any subdivision as the accumulation of brush and Stumps has become too excessive for the Lake Lodge Brush Disposal Area. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Moisa, Raynor, Gr-ebb, Coyle. Planning Board ~ ~12~ ~April 1, 1974 Mr, Wickham asked that it be put in the minutes that the Code and the subdivision regulations regarding land subject to flooding are different. On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Raynor and carried, the meeting was adjourned. Respectfully submitted, Muriel Brush, Secretary ~ohn Wickham, Chairman