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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-06/04/1974 PLANNING BOARD MEM BE[RS John Wickham, Chairman Henry Molsa Alfred Grebe Henry Raynor Frank Coyle Southold Town Planmng Board SBLJTHrlLD, L. I., N. Y. 119'71 MINUTES SOUTHOLD TOWN PLANNING BOARD June 4, 1974 A regular meeting of the Southold Town Planning Board was held at 7:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 4, 1974, at the Town Clerk's Office, Main Road, Southold, New York. There were present: Messrs. John Wickham, Chairman; Henry Moisa, Vice-Chairman; Henry Raynor; Frank S. Coylei Alfred Grebe. Orient Point - Hearing on preliminary map. The hearing was called to order at 7:30 p.m. by the Chairman. Mr. Henry Raynor read the Notice of Hearing. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that pursuant to Section 276 of the Town Law, a public hearing will be held by the Southold Town Planning Board at the Town Office, Main Road, Southold, New York, in said Town on the 4th day of June, 1974 at 7:30 o'clock in the evening of said day, on the question of the preliminary approval of the following plat: Plateof property owned by Ernest E. Wilsberg, Harold W. Wilsberg and~ Richard J. Cron entitled "Orient Point!', con- sisting of a parcel of land situated at Orient in the Town of Southold, ~ounty of Suffolk and State of New York, bounded and described asfollows.. BEGInnING at a point on the ordinary high water line of Long Island· Sound, where same is intersected by the easterly line of land conveyed to Ruth L. Young by deed recorded in liber 1961 cp 271; thence along said ordinary high water line the following 6 courses and distances: (1) South'50© 35' 40" East, 177.46 feet; (2) South 71o 43' lC" East, 701.40 feet; (3) thence South 67© 38' 50" East, 231.39 feet; ;(4) South 75° 25' 50".East, 234.54 feet; (5) South 87© 32' 30" East 652.60 feet, (6) North 82° 56' 50" East, 620,29 feet to the Planning Boak.d -2- ~. June 4, 1974 easterly end o£ Orient Point; thence easterly and southeasterly, around the easterly end of Orient Point to a point on ordinary high water line of Gardiners Bay where same is intersected by the westerly line of land of U. S. Government; thence still along ordinary high water line of Gardiners Bay, the following 4 courses and distances: (1) South 56° 18' 10" West, 1003.70 feet; (2) South 51o 22' 20" West, 815.39 feet; (3) South 73° 26' 30" West, 231.60 feet; (4) South 58° 49' 00" West, 164.13 feet; thence North 33' 40' West, 139.25 £eet to the southerly side of a 15 foot right of way granted to U. S. A. by liber 4062 cp 27; thenoe along easterly line of a "reserved area" of approximately 8 acres,.,North 2° 03' 40" East, 534.19 feet; thence South 76° 1!' 20" ~st, 343.60 feet; thence South 74° 45' 40" West, 203.85 feet to northeast corner of land conveyed to Long Island Lighting Company; thence along land of Long Island Lighting Company, South 78° 11' 40" West, 100 feet to land now or formerly of Nathan Hicks; thence along said land now or formerly of Hicks, 2 courses, as follows: (1) North 8° 04' 40" West, 75.31 feet; (2) North 29° 25' 30" West, 210.73 feet to the easterly line of land of Ruth L. Young; thence along land of said yount, 3 courses as follows: (!) North 0° 57' 30" East, 142.12 feet; (2) North 82° 48' 10" East, 171.08 feet; (3) North 1° 21' 30" East, 1,000 feet to ordinary high water line of Long Island Sound, to the point or place of beginning. EXCEPTING therefrom those easements and parcels of land previously conveyed to the U. S. Government and to James Hughes and NnnHughes. TOGETHER with the balance of the land included within the rights of way conveyed to the United S~ates of America on January 27, 1956, by an instrument recorded in liber 4062 of conveyances, page 27, in the Suffolk County Clerk's Office. EXCEPT so much thereof as is referred to in said instru- ment as: "Also an easemenv for a power andtelephone line, l0 feet in width, the southerly boundary line of which begins at the iron pipeat the northerly end of the fifth course ~of the easement first hereinabove described and runs South 81° 14' 10" West, 215.60 feet to a point South 8° 45' 50" East, 5 feet from the existing pole marked 'NY #22' provided, however, that no poles or other supports shall be placed within this l0 foot easement." SUBJECT to the perpetual easements of the United States in, on, over, under and through said area; and also SUBJECT to the right of certain parties to pass and repass over said easements; and also SUBJECT to the right of James T. Hughes and his wife, their heirs and assigns, to pass and repass thereon. Planning Board -3 .... June 4, 1974 SUBJECT to the tenancy rights of Gn~mman Aircraft Engineering Company. SUBJECT to any state of facts an accurate survey might show or an inspection would disclose, and to covenants, conditions, easements, restrictions, and reservations of record. TOGETHER with a right ~o use for bathing and general beach use (but not for any commercial purpose nor for the erection of any structures) adjacent premises bounded and described as follows: On the North by the south line of the U. S. Government easement; on the East by the premises here- inafter described; on the South by Gardiners Bay and on the West by land of Eugene MdDonnell or the State of New York. TOGETHER with all of the right, title and interest of certain parties (except the right to pass and repass thereon) of, in, and to all tha~ piece or parcel of land bounded and described as follows: On the North by the southerly line of the Government easement on its most easterly course; on the East by the Government easement; on the South by land of Eugene McDonnell and on the West by the State Road. TOGETHER with the right to pass and repass below the ordinary high water marks of both Long Island Sound and Gardiners Bay over land of the United States Government near the easterly end of the premises. Any person desiring to be heard on the above matter should appear at the time and place above specified. Dated: May 17, 1974 BY ORDER OF THE SOUTHOLD TOWN PLANNING BOARD JOHN WICKHAM, CHAIRMAN Affidavits of publication were presented from the SuffolM Weekly Times and the Long Island Traveler - Mattituck Watchman. Mr. Wickham: For the record, the map Submitted does not conform with the legal description in that there are no courses or distances shown on these maps which will be required. The map shows the very tip of the point beyond the U. S. Government property. Is that in the description? Mr. Cron: The description went around the point. Mr. Wickham: I would like to reserve the right of the Board to go over the easements and the exceptions because they are a little too complicated at this time. Planning Bo~d -4- June 4, 1974 Mr. Cron: They no way affect the subdivision. Mr. Wickham: I would like to say the map jibes with the legal description and I am not sure that is true. Mr. Cron: This thing has been pending for a long time and you have had the description all this time. ~Why haven't these been resolved prior to tonight? Mr. Raynor: Didn't we ask for metes and bounds? There was a question about the easterly tip of the property being not Wilsberg. Mr. Cron: We had indicated in all prior hearings that there would be no reservation of that tip. That is in your minutes. Mr. Wickham: That is true. This is a preliminary hearing and it is not necessary at a preliminary hearing to have all of these matters in conformity with the requirements for the final hearing. The file contains a statement from the Super- intendent of Highways under date of April 5, 1974. Gentlemen: The Highway Committee and myself have made a study of the site and the preliminary maps and concur with the layout of the subdivision. /s/ Raymond C. Dean Mr;Wickham: I also have a letter from Dean about recommendat- ions made at the site on March 4, 1974 and an additional memo on that meeting on March 4th. I have a letter which again points out the fact that preliminary submissions do not require the same degree of conformance. The following is a letter from this Board to Mr. Cron as attorney and principal, dated December 31, 1973. Dear Mr. Cron: The County normally requires subdividers in areas where bank erosion can be expected to put on their map a line one hundred feet back from the top of the bank and we suggest this. In addition, ~uuder Section A106-42(9) the Southold Town Planning Board requires the approximate location and size of all water lines, etc. if this is going to be served by a central water system. Under Section A106-42(10) a storm drainage plan is necessary including the approximate location and size of the proposed lines and connection to storm water recharge basins. Both of these are prerequisites for a preliminary hearing. ~ Plar~uing BoSm.~d -5- June 4, 1974 Also, we will probably require that the park and play- ground area include the very end of the island. After a report from the Superintendent of Highways and completion of the above, we will be able to set a preliminary hearing. /s/ John Wickham, Chairman Mr. Raynor: Do we have any submission from the Suffolk County Department of Health? Mr. Wickham: No. Mr. Wickham read the following disclosure affirmation dated September 4, 1973 and signed by Richard J. Cron. Richard J. Cron, an attorney at law, and one of the fee owners of lands known as Orient Point, New York, does hereby affirm the following statement under penalty of perjury: That the sole owners of the lands subject to this appli- cation are as follows: Ernest E. Wilsber~n Harold W. Wilsberg Richard J. Cron Mattituck, N. Y. Mattituck, N. Y. New Suffolk, N. Y. That there are no other persons having any interest herein, direct or indirect, except that of George and Benjamin Latham, who have a beneficial interest in the premises by virtueof being purchase money mortgagees. Mr. WiCkham: As far as this Board knows this is an adequate submission to hold a preliminary hearing and it is our usual practice to ask those who wish to speak in opposition to this to have the first chance. Before doing this, I would like to say that there has been perhaps more than a little interest in this particular piece of property by various agencies and groups and individuals. This hearing tonight is to discuss a plan for development which has been submitted. We are discussing a map of a subdivision and the chair is going to rule against general statements such as that people do not or do like i~. We are discussing a proposed plan for subdivision and the maps that have been presented. Mrs. T~edke, PresidenT, League of Women Voters of Riverhead- Southold read the following letter and received the answers to herequestions as she went ~long. Mrs. Tiedke: Generally speaking, the League is in agreement with the SOuthotd Town Development Plan. We are convinced that agricultural land is too valuable to permit its develop- ment for residential use; we also believe that land that is unique and/orof marginal residential or development quality, Planning Board - 6- June 4, 1974 for whatever reasoD~ should be left as open space. With the question of the development of Orient Point at hand, we have some questions. We would appreciate answer~ to each question. Question: Would the area be eligible for flood plain insur- ance? Mr. Wickham: We spent four and a half hours last night discussing this and at this point we have no answers. Some of this land does come within this flood plain area probably. Question: What protection will there be for residents in the evenv of a hurricane? or a so-called 100 year storm? or a 400 year storm? Mr. Wickham: This is a requirement of the County and the Planning Board and this is backed up by the report of the Army Corps of Engineers showing what the rate of erosion has been for over 100 years. We have dopies of these reports. I think your 400 year storm is a little far out. N~es~iedke: Manyppeople do talk about it. Mr. Wickham: With the rate of erosion at Orient Point, in 400 years there won't be one. We have the report for over a hundred years and if you accept that' as a normal rate then in 400 years there will be very little left of it. Mr. Cron: The tides can change and there could be an increase also. Question: What specific recommendations does the Suffolk County Health Department have for water use in this area? What are their projections of availability and purity? Mr. Wickham: (to Mr. Cron) You are figuring on a municipal plant? Mr. Cron: We have already made our own determinations. Mr. Ray, or: The Board does not have that information yet. Mr. Wickham: The Town does not have the privilege of making even recommendations let alone determinations ~because the County,under State law, insists on the complete perogative. It is their responsibility and we may not share it. Our Town Attorney has been very clear in this. It is a department of planning which we may not engage in by State law. For those of you who are interested, this is what the New York State Wetlands Act is trying to do and I also think it is incredible. Question: With Health Department regulations requiring wells to be drilledto 40'; what exception'has been made in this area where there is a one foot water table? Planning Boated -Z- .. ~ June 4, 1974 Mr. Wickham: This is a central water system. Question: How will seepage from the sanitary system be retained within the periphery of this small penninsula? No answer. Question: Why does the 1967 Town Development Plan map show Orient Point as green open space, while the 1969 Development Plan Map indicates this area as Agricultural-Residential? Mr. Wickham: This particular part is not pertinent as I see it to the hearing on this matter. We would be glad to discuss this at a future time. The remainder of Ms. Tiedke's letter reads "We regret that Raymond and May were persuaded, for whatever reasons, to withdraw Orient Point from their 1967 recommendations for open space areas. We propose that the best use of this area after all would indeed be as open space as indicated on the original 19~7 Development Plan Map. Mr. Wickham: Does anyone else wish to be heard in opposition or wish any clarification on the issues? I would like to point out that regardless of which way the decision ofthis Board goes at this time, the developers are entitled to the prescribed legal procedure. If they meet the requirements of the Town of Southold, the Planning Board may not say no. We the people of the Town of Southold have had ample oppor- tunity to set the subdivision standards and requirements in such condition as we thought we wanted and needed. Generally, we are satisfied. Any developer who meets the stated properly accepted requirements obviously can expect that his subdivision will be gra~ted. If there is no one else who wishes to be heard in opposition, I would like to open the hearing to those that wish to speak in ~avor of it. Mr. Cron: As this Board well knows, we have appeared here on many occasions in the past and have spent considerable time and effort and money in endeavoring to formulate a form of development for Orient Point. Mr. Wickham: I would like to say for the record that this is maybe the third proposal you have made. I agree you have spent alot of time and effort and this is at leas~ the third map. Mr. Cron- Whether ~ the delays that have ensued, whether they were just or unjm~$,I would like to point out at this time that wehave complied with every single law that the Town of Southold requires for a subdivision map andwe would expect forthwith approval of that map. We have complied aud I would expect the normal result that would follow compliance. Planning Boated -8- June 4, 1974 Mr. Wickham: Is there anyone else who wishes to speak in favor of this subdivision? If there is no one else who wishes to be heard on this matter I will declare the hearing closed. Mr. Cron: I want anything further to be said on the record for the hearing. Mr. Wickham: This Board has said several times that we support the County's position that when an erosion problem arises there should be a building line setback of 100 feet and this is a recommendation that we received from the Soil and Water Conservation District. They also dug up the records from the Army Corps of Engineers which they and we base this point on. This will mean that this map will have to be revised. We have in the past accepted a preliminary submission before it went to the County Planning Commission. In fact, the State law is rather unclear about this and the County Charter is also. b The County says in general that we are not to submit to them until we have had preliminary approval. We know from past experience and we expect in this case that this map will have to be redrawn and the lots rearranged in conformity with their plan and we have so notified the developers and this is why this letter. Mr. Cron: I would like this in the recordl. The first point t would like to make is we e×~mined the adOoining parcel, Land's End, which this Board approved. The setback on that subdivision was from the highwater mark and not the bank. I don't think I should be bound by anything more than the adjoining landowner. If you disapprove this map I deem the Town of Southold condemning all of that property. I will bring action accordingly. No one says what setback I have to go. There is nothing in your regulations. If you are hanging your hat on something the Connty says, if it is your position on this map that a 100 foot setback is necessary, I consider it a condemnation act on your part. Mr. Wiokham: The Chairman of this Board has always felt at avery serious disadvantage in discussions like this for the simple reason that we have had no legal training. The Town Board does not see fit to provide us with counsel. We can only say at this pointwe will have to take the matter up with Town Counsel. Nevertheless, because Ibelieve in an open and a frank discussion of what we consider the problems involved, you will recall that our letter of last December said the. County "usually". Mr. Cron: It doesn't mean anything to me. This Board must follow the rules and regulations of the Town of Southold development and I see nothing in the rules and regulations of the Town of Southold. Mr. Wickham: The Town is required under the County Charter to submit all subdivision maps to them for review and their Planning Boaz~d -9- ~ ~ June 4, 1974 approval and we find it very difficult to approve maps which do not meet their requirements. Mr. Cron: How do you explain the different requirements in this short time with Land's End and Orient Point? It is the same piece of land running contiguous. Mr. Wickham: We have the report of the Army Corps of Engineers which shows the erosion on the Bay side is much more severe than the Sound side. Mr. Raynor: Before the Board reaches a decision we will go through the requirements that we had for Land's End. Mr. Wickham: There is one other question. Is the old hotel property which is khown here under the name of Wilsberg, is this contiguous or not to this? Mr. Cron: Yes, it is contiguous. Mr. Wickham: This Board normally requires some sort of a statement about the plans for development for contiguous property. Mr. Cron: It will be developed with its permitted uses under the ordinance. Mr. Wickham: At the present time, I believe this is zoned for higher density use. Mr. Cron: It is zoned for multiple residences Mr. Wickham: As of now, this Board is assuming that it will be developed for multiple residences which is the use for which it is zoned. Mr. Cron: Yes, it will be developed for the use for which it is zoned. It will not be used for resid&~,~ial development. Mr. Wickham: There is no real impact of that property on the subject premises. Mr. Raynor: Do you intend to develop a private water system? Mr. Cron: Yes. aynor.~ Would it be entirely within the bounds of the subdivision? Mr. Cron: It will be outside the subdivision. It would be shown on the map if it was there. Mr. Wickham: I also point out that our requirements are that when the maps are submitted they show the location of the water mains, etc. This Board has accepted the fact that you have been for one reason or another held up and as far as Planning Boated -10- June 4, 1974 this Board is concerned, each one of them is reasonable but you have submitted at least three different maps. There has been a long delay and for this reason we have been willing to waive some of these requirements for preliminary submission. If there is no one else who wishes to be heard I will declare the hearing closed. Shirley Bachrach: In some areas developers of large develop- ments are required to have an environmental impact statement on all aspects of their property. What takes the place of such an impact statement in an area such as this where the environment is the major concern? Mr. Wickham: Quite frankly, nothing. The problem has been that there has been no agency or group or individual who has been willing to undertake an impact Study on such a small project as this. The impact studies tHk~ this Board is aware of are much ~reater in scope and extremely e~pensive aud time consuming. We think this is unreasonable. Ms. Tiedke: Couldn't impact statements be tailored to the area? Mr. Wickham: We have no idea. The following people came to the hearing late as they under- stood the hearing was to be held at the Supervisor's Office. Mr. and Mrs. Albert Krem, Mr. Kahn, Mr. and Mrs. Berhard, Mr. Bentz and Ms. Evelyn Gordon. James Primm who works out of Ewvironmental Control was also in attendance. Highland Road Corporation. Richard Lark, Esq. and Howard Young appeared. Mr. Lark: On your suggestion, I have talked to the Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Presbyterian ~hurch regarding the pocket park on the Main Road. We have m~de a ~en~ative arrangement where they could utilize this property. The surveyor says we do not need it in the Comp~tatio~ for the park and playground. This will be eliminated in the plan we have revised. They want to expand their parking facilities ~ad possibly have a curb cut. The cross.street has been located. I talked to the adjoining landowner and found out his viewpoint on a through street. Some members suggested running one of the roads through. He was against that. This gives ~ouribackyards all with a 150 foot building line and eliminates the Elag lot concept. Howard (Young) says he cannot eliminate the cul-de-sacs. We do have a slight topo- graphy problem. Mr. Young: The main problem is the topography by this hill and it is nicely wooded. Planning Bo~_-d -11- i June 4, 1974 Mr. Wickham: You know how our Superintendent of Highways feels about cul-de-sacs and you have three. Mr. Lark: I told the owner that there was a possibility that the Town~ht not accept these for dedication. It may be these will be private roads for the property owners to maintain. These might not be dedicated then for that reason because he doesn't like them. Mr. Raynor: What is the engineering problem that is creating the block? Mr. Young: We ran into a drainage problem with a low area and my client wants what he wants. We lose a lot and create a drainage problem. Mr. Raynor: Even with the northerly property being woodland? Mr. Young: Yes, you still end up with a low area which could be solved but I lose a lot. Mr. Lark was told to go to the Superintendent of Highways and see if he would accept the cul-de-sacs. Mr. Richard Mohring and Mr. Bart Piscitello arrived just as the conference was at an end. Leisure Oaks. Proposed condominiums of Mike Tsontos. Mr. Tsontos and Mr. Steve Tsontakis appeared. Mr. Tsontos presented five sketches of the proposed condominium layout. He explained the property is presently zoned light industrial and this would constitute an upzoning. He said it was across from the shopping center and he felt this was a natural area for this thing. He said ~ey will have their own public water supply. In answer to a question about sewage, Mr. Tsontakis said there would be individual septic tanks, etc. for each unit. He said they spoke with Mr. Villa and he didn't require individual units but he is recommending one for each unit. They contemplate thirty-five unitS. Mr. Wickham: You are allowed 35 units but I would advise you to shoot for something less because if you shoot for the whole thing you may end with something a little bit out. We would like to look them over and have the Building Inspector look them over. Mr. Tsontos is to be scheduled for the first meeting in July. James Dill minor subdivision. Mr. Renny Terry, Esq. and Mr. and Mrs. Dill appeared. There was a discussion on the four-lot minor subdivision mostly concerned with rights of way to the back property and the beach. Planning Board -12- _ J~ne 4, 1974 It was generally agreed that there should be twenty foot rights of way on each side of the property designated as lots I and 2 and from there to the water ten foot walkways an either side of the property designated as lots 3 and 4. In discussion later on in the evening, this was again confirmed. On motion made by Mr. Moisa, seconded by Mr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED that the minutes of May 15, 1974 be approved. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Moisa, Coyle, Grebe. On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Coyle, it was RESOLVED that the minutes of M~ 20, 1974 be~approved. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Moisa, Coyle, Grebe. On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded byMr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED that the planting plan of Sound Shore Resort Motel including marble chips in the shrubbery bed by the front porch and extra planting along the easterly edge of the lawn near the drainage area be approved subject to a review in two years. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Moisa, Coyle, Raynor and Grebe. The next meetings will be held June 24 and July 8. Mr. Moisa made a motion, seconded by Mr. Coyle and carried that the meeting be adjourned. The meeting was adjourned at 10:lO p.m. ~J~hn Wickham, Chairman Respectfully submitted Muriel Brus~