Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-10/25/1976JOHN WICKHAM, Chairman FRANK COYLE HENRY RAY'NOR Fa~PaCg E. GO~ Southold, I_ Y. 11971 MINUTES October 25, 1976 TELEPHONE 765-1313 A regular meeting of the Southold Town Planning Board was held on October 25, 1976 at 7:30 p.m. at the Town Clerk's Office, Main Road, Southold, New York. Present were: John Wickham, Chairman Henry E. Raynor, Jr., Vice-Chairman Frank S. Coyle Frederick E. Gordon Ethel Andersen minor subdivision. Mr. Raynor read the legal notice of hearing. Notices of publication have not yet been received due to the holiday. Mr. Wickham: Due to the fact that this is all road frontage, it is not necessary to have a letter from the Town Superintendent of Highways. We have a receipt for the fee. I will ask the secretary to make sure that the proofs of notice are in the file and we will hold the hearing open until this proof of notice is obtained. At this time, I will open the hearing for those that wish to speak in opposition to this subdivision. Samuel Glickman, Esq.: I am representing Irving Latham and Mrs. Edwards. We are in opposition to the granting of this small subdivision with the effect that the land of the Andersen's right now whenever there is a floodtide, there is water into the property. Whenever there is a storm, it flows onto the property. Mr. Latham has other property that water did back up onto. His land and the farm property and the Edwards property. In 1961, Mrs. Edwards made an application for a subdivision and, I believe, this Board said 'yes, you can have four lots on a fifteen acre piece' and the land adjacent is the same type of land. Any high tide, the water comes in. There is only one high spot in the middle of the property. If it is built up, there will be further trouble and everything will be running onto the Edwards land and Mr. Latham's. On the west side, we have a pond in there that both Mr. Burden and Mr. Latham have gone to a great expense of putting in oysters and clams to see if they will grow for the benefit of the north shore and the slightest disturbance of the waters will undoubtedly kill those seedlings. Further, there is Planning Board -2- Octoba. 25, 1976 a drainage passage on the west side which was put in by Eddie King, I have been told, but the flow of the tide from The back end is the bay that would run into The property and back out again and to take the water off the highway will do the same thing. It winds up on Latham's and Edwards' land. If back in 1961, the Board didn't see fit to grant a subdivision I can't see why they would grant one now. The cesspools and all, most of the land is under water most of the time. Mr. Raynor: Where is the Edwards property? Mr. Glickman: Edwards' property is along the side of the Latham property. It is the same kind of property we are talking about. Mr. Raynor: The contour lines are the same. Mr. Glickman: You couldn't tell how it is on the map. (He looked at the map from the file) I apologize. The map I had didn't have contours. Mr. Raynor: You mentioned a pond. Mr. Glickman: The pond is directly behind. There is the canal and there is a pond right here. (pointed in the same general area) It is part of the canal and has just been seeded with clams. Chuck Harris: The pond is confined to this area. canal end) (pointed to Mr. Wickham: This land of King .... Mr. Glickman: It is now Burden. Mr. Wickham: You made some reference to cesspools. You know that the state designates the County Board of Health as The one to have authority over cesspools and this doesn't come before this board, in general. Does anyone else wish to be heard in opposition to this subdivision? Irving L. Price, Jr., Esq.: I am appearing on behalf of Walter H. Burden, Sr., who has title to The premises adjoining on the east and south and Henry W. Burden, who is a tenant and the person with whom Irving Latham has commenced the seeding of this canal or pond with clams and oysters and I can only concur with Mr. Glickman except that I do feel that the Board should take into consideration the matter of cesspools because it is a fact that can't be ignored and, looking at this map, I see that the test hole is made at the five-foot contour and when you look at the lot entitled 'number l' there is very little of That lot that is north of that five-foot contour. Actually, in some ways, the middle lot where they took the trouble to take the test hole was the highest lot of all and we believe the result will be flooding of land of Mr. Latham and Mrs. Edwards and, for all The reasons advanced by Mr. Glickman, Mr. Burden also opposes this. Planning Board -3- O~ ~ober 25, 1976 I would like to reserve our rights to answer any and all matters brought up by the proponent here. Mr. Raynor: Would you consider this property a water course? Mr. Price: I don't know what a water course is, but I went over it this afternoon over a dirt road that was clay and puddles and soft tracks and a good deal of it was under water. That is Burden's end Latham's and some of lot number one was under water this afternoon. Mr. Raynor: By water course, I would mean a natural flow of water from rain to flow across this property naturally opposed to from building. Mr. Price: Yes, under that definition. Mr. Wickham: I find myself very much interested in the concepts that are being presented here and I don't know that this is the time to go further into it but, before the hearing is over, I would like to follow up a little bit more. Anyone else in opposition? Hearing none, I will ask for anyone that wishes to be heard in favor of it? Ethel Andersen: If I wanted to sell this property as a whole piece, they wouldn't worry about water or the way it is now. One was sent to me by Mr. Burden and, if I had enough property, I would have given that nice gentleman a piece of it and no one worried about it then. I am offering the middle piece, as is, to Mr. Burden which would be the piece of land with nothing on it. Gertrude Reeves: I lived in the house that Mr. Burden lives in. Twice in my lifetime has there been water on that property. The water was where her house sits. The rest of the water on Latham's lot was salt water. Her land, I would love to have you see it. Her land is higher than Irving Latham's. His barns are lower except where her house is which is east of this piece of property. Mrs. Andersen: All my property is higher than what's across. All that was built by Ed King, was built on property he owned. There is no more water than anyone else's house. Mrs. Reeves: The water on the road is from rain and the State highway which has not taken care of proper drainage. The water sits where Irving Latham keeps is big equipment. It was there when I was a child, went away and now it is back again. This is all drainage. Mrs. Andersen: Mrs. Reeves has lived there practically all her life. Mr. Wickham: I am familiar with the property. Stanley Duvall, who was Mrs. Reeves' father, was a friend of mine. I am very Planning Board -4- Oct Jer 25, 1976 familiar with the property and more familiar with diking procedures. Mrs. Andersen: This is the first I decided that I would like to dispose of some of it and get some income. Mr. Raynor: How long have you owned the property? Mrs. Andersen: From 1941. Mr. Wickham: Does anyone else wish to be heard in favor? Charles W. Harris: I am quite familiar with the property because I am purchasing one lot. I have looked the property over closely and I wouldn't invest in underwater property. When the basin was dug out, the fill from this was placed along the front of this property that acts as a dike. Approximately twenty feet in from this dike to this point even along the wetlands, there is quite a definite increase in depth of property. If you stand at this point on diked land and look at the water level at any known high tide, this land looks to be not lower than five feet to water at any point. In front of the fragmites, there is a dike. From an investment point of view, we have looked it over very closely and found out that the adjoining property has six or seven buildings and there is a row of trees with a little dike and drainage which acts as a drainage ditch and, if you gentlemen would look at the land, you would appreciate it is a beautiful piece of property and any water from a hurricane would be at the low land. Mr. Wickham: On the map there is a test hole at an elevation above the water table. This is rarely above six inches over sea level at Orient. For your information, any land that lays below an elevation of five feet brings some problems. I am sure you know that. There are several things that I think I should state. Number one, Mrs. Andersen, if this minor subdivision is approved, it still faces on Main Road and is within 500 feet of salt water so it has to go to the County Planning Commission for their action. Number two, any person purchasing one of these lots will have to go to the County Board of Health and obtain permission to build on the lot and they will have to meet their requirements. Number three, they will have to go to the State Dept. of Environmental Control which sets very rigorous standards, as well. If that weren't enough, there is a fourth one which is facing us and this is the Federal Flood Plain elevation which may go into effect sometime next month. It may be delayed longer than that but I think everyone here should be aware of all of these factors. They will, of necessity, be of interest to you. Frankly, this Board is in a position of having a very minor part in it at this stage in the game because the decisions which will affect you are going to be made by other groups in addition to this group. I want you to understand this. Regardless of how the action that this Board takes, there are these additional steps that must be taken. This is a fact of life we can't help. Planning Board -5- Oct ,er 25, 1976 I would like, at this time, to ask one or the other of the attorneys here. I own a great many acres of diked land, about two miles. My understanding is that your contention is that if this is filled to any substantial degree, it will pose a flood hazard. Mr. Glickman: It will flood onto the Latham land at this particular point. Mr. Wickham: This is an interesting concept because, if this is true, then Irving Latham and Ed King and Stanley Duvall and Ed Latham have seriously damaged all of Orient because the diking that has been done in Orient has already resulted in higher tides than ever before. It is a question of who is placing the blame where and, in my humble opinion, believe a few h~undred yards of fill on one of these lots would be somewhat like a fly speck in comparison with two miles of dikes that Ed Lathamhas. Mr. Glickman: I am not familiar with the problem of diking. If you are the expert, perhaps, to your knowledge, you say it will not do it. Mr. Wickham: It will raise the level but it is infinitesimal with the diking that has been done in Orient. Mrs. Andersen: Then, they would never be able to sell any of their land either. Mr. Glickman: That is about true. Mrs. Andersen: We will have to give it away. Mr. Wickham: There is no question there is a problem there. I am in much worse condition than you are with a lot of land that is not buildable. Mrs. Andersen: Could you sell the whole kit and caboodle and I am asking $150,000. Mr. Price: My client would like to point out in reply to Mr. Harris and Mrs. Reeves that Mr. Harris has indicated that he is interested in purchasing one of these lots and Mrs. Reeves, I believe, one of her family is interested also. I also call your attention to the statement that Mrs. Andersen made that she would sell the whole thing for $150,000. I think this is sort of a pressure game being played. Be that as it may, as far as the height of the land, I suppose if it applies to lot number one, whether there is a dike on it, if somebody is going to build a house on lot three, there are five foot in elevations for that, they are going to have to fill in and that is the point I am making and I think Mr. Glickman is, too. It is not because it is diked but the land to be used for houses, the land will have to be raised and when it does that will divert water onto Latham's and Burden's land and the fact that it diverts water to other people's land is our objection, not because it is diked. It is Planning Board -6- 0¢ Jber 25, 1976 the potential and I think it should take consideration and the fact that it will have to be elevated to be built on and that is what we are talking about. Mrs. Reeves: Presently, all of the land that Mrs. Andersen owns, the part that her house is on where she has her drinking water is lower than any other property. Mr. Wickham: The map doesn't show it that way but our investigation team reported the same thing. Mr. Price: Can we ask the surveyor for a correct map? Mr. Wickham: You can. Be assured we will look further into this matter. Mrs. Andersen: When you buy a piece of land, do you have to use that piece in the back? Couldn't you leave it lay? Mr. Wickham: I think Mr. Price said something and you said the same thing. If you wish and if it becomes difficult to get an approved minor subdivision, you may always sell what's lot number one and two together. You have the right to dispose of your property as you see fit. Mrs. Andersen: I would like to keep my home. Mr. Wickham: There are meadowlands sold all the time. Mr. Harris: Is it required that she has a subdivision on three lots? She could sell these lots? Mr. Wickham: She may sell a part of her property as long as she maintains a buildable lot for herself. She wouldn't have to file a subdivision lot. Mrs. Andersen: You can sell the easterly side or westerly and keep it vacant. Mr. Wickham: I will now declare the hearing closed. Anna C. Hansen property. Robert Celic and William Fabb appeared. Mr. Celic showed a proposal for the property of the Anna C. Hansen estate. This has been before the Planning Board before with many different proposals. Mr. Celic wants to make eight very large lots but would like it to be a minor subdivision. He has spoken with Paul Stoutenburg about giving some of the property to Nature Conservancy and said Mr. Stoutenburg was interested. He wants to put restrictions on the property for large sized homes, perhaps. two thousand square feet of living area. The lots will average out to about two or three acres. Mr. Raynor reminded Mr. Celic that state law says minor subdivisions can contain no more than four lots. Mr. Celic asked if there was any way the property Planning Board -7- October 25, 1976 could be divided. Mr. Wickham said they could make some arrange- ments for the property to be conveyed as two separate parcels and come in for a minor subdivision on either one. Mr. Wickham said there is no reason they cannot buy half of it. Mr. Coyle mentioned the fact that they showed a 25 foot right-of-way down the middle and wanted to know the reason. Mr. Raynor said it is not passable at the end where it goes to Inlet East subdivision. Mr. Celic said they would covenant that the road would be privately maintained. Mr. Coyle felt it should be made 50 feet wide just in case the people want the town to take it at some future time. Mr. Wickham asked of they could justify putting in a highway for ten or twelve lots. Mr. Wickham felt four more lots would more than cover the cost of the road construction. Mr. Celic asked if they went into a major subdivision, could the road aspect be revised a little bit. Mr. Raynor answered there were several types of modifications that can be considered. Swaling, different types of paving werementioned. Mr. Raynor said the board would send it to the Soil Conservation District. If they went into a major subdivision, there would be the chance of having twelve or fourteen lots, but Mr. Celic indiated that they would rather keep it to eight. Mr. Raynor asked them to submit something that the board could look at. Mr. Wickham told Mr. Celic to buy half the property and come in for a minor. Col. Ted Dowd. Gary Olsen, Esq. appeared. Mr. Olsen presented six copies of map of this subdivision showing the grassed waterways on Dowd's property and a bigger park and playground area. A cross-section of the sand drain was requested. The secretary was directed to ask the Soil Conservation Service what kind of subsoil they recommend for the grass swales. Mr. 01sen will present more copies of the map upon request. Schackman. Gary 01sen, Esq. appeared. This property is located on Main Road and Aldrich Lane in Laurel and is under contract from Mr. Catalano. He wants to make two parcels in the business zone portion which are of sufficient size according to the bulk schedule of the ordinance. He wants to create two large parcels in the rear. Six copies of the proposal were presented. There was discussion about putting a reservation for a road on the property for cross-circulation in the future if the property to the west is subdivided. The secretary was directed to write the cemetery association on Aldrich Lane to see if they are interested in acquiring more property. Mr. Olsen thought the developer would be interested in selling some property to them because of the largeness of the lots. Planning Board -8- tober 25, 1976 Quail Ruua Estates. Gary Olsen, Esq. appeared. Mr. Olsen presented six more copies of the map. The roads are named on this copy. The secretary was directed to again ask Mr. Dean, Superintendent of Highways, for a letter indicating his approval or disapproval of the roads and drainage in this subdivision. Gibbons minor subdivision. Gary Olsen, Esq. appeared. Mr. Gibbons would like to relocate the right-of-way on the approved sketch plan of this subdivision. Where it is presently located the town has built up the road and there is a drop to the proposed right-of-way which would cause many problems. They would like a 25 foot strip on the north and south ends of the property to the back lots. The Board will look at the property. Luglio. Centennial Manor. Richard Cron, Esq. appeared. There was discussion with Larry Tuthill on his recommendations to remove the reverse curves. It was felt that it was better to have the reverse curves and go with the contour of the land. It was recommended that the recharge basin be squared off for engineering purposes. On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it was RESOLVED to hold a public hearing on the preliminary map of subdivision known as "Centennial Manor" owned by Albert Luglio and others, located at Cutchogue, New York, on November 15, 1976. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon Nina Stevens. Richard Cron, Esq. appeared. There was discussion on this subdivision as to whether it should be brought in separately as a major and a minor for the property by the right-of-way of others. The width of the lots on the Sound are not 150 feet at the building line and this will have to be corrected. There should be a road going to the west in case of future subdivision. It was determined that it was not necessary to have a road go to the east because the property keeps narrowing in that direction. Estate of Nicholas Piccione and Hans Rein. minor subdivision. The public hearing on this matter was reconvened. A corrected description of the property has been received and was to be so noted in the minutes. A notation should be placed on the map indicating there can be no further subdivision. The hearing was closed. Planning Board -9- October 25, 1976 There had been a question presented to the Planning Board office as to the board's policy on overhead LILC0 lines. This refers to minor subdivisions. The board has no policy on this matter. Send a note to Mr. Schroeder to this effect. The following report was submitted by Henry E. Raynor, Jr., Vice- Chairman of the Southold Town Planning Board. The 34th Annual Meeting of the New York Planning Federation was held October lC, ll and 12, 1976. I. Site Plan Under new legislation recently enacted by the state, complete jurisdiction over site plans have been given to village, town and county planning boards. This legislation may be enacted by local town boards if prior authorization has not been given. It is strongly urged that the town boards pass a resolution to this effect. Under this change, no public hearing regarding site plaus is necessary. This is exactly the procedure to date in the Town of Southold. II. Planning Programs It is suggested that planning boards initiate programs of study to recommend to town boards, in areas that are pertinent to their locale. Examples would be wetlands study, new municipal buildings, park and recreation areas, highways, and building designs, planting schedules. III. Zoning Ordinances and Planning Special emphasis was placed on the use of zoning ordinances to aid the development plan. As needs arise through devel- opment trends, the zoning ordinance should be continually revised to reflect growth needs and demands. IV. Park and Playground Areas Donations by developers has become a more accepted practice in many areas in lieu of recreation areas being set aside within subdivisions. The reasoning behind this practice is local governments are finding these dedicated parks and playground areas too small. In many instances it is impractical and too expensive for towns to maintain. V. Fees An analysis of planning board expenditures annually should be made. Fees should be adjusted to reflect the actual operating costs of each board. In this way, the developer is not a burden to the taxpayer nor is he overcharged by the town. I would urge this to be considered. VI. Subdivision Submission Modification When the planning board requests any modification of plans for subdivisions, it is presumed the subdivision is going to be accepted by the planning board. On acceptance of filing with the entire submission completed, the planning board has 45 days in which to act. Time period may not be considered started, or accepted, until after all required documents are in the board clerk's possession. VII. Improvements Section of Regulation The planning board should strongly consider writing into its rules and regulations all possible improvements that Planning Board -10- 04 ~ober 25, 1976 VIII. IX. may be considered in the future, i.e. street lighting, dry sewerage, sidewalks, etc. These may be waived as the present submissions do not require any of these improve- ments. Meeting Minutes It is strongly urged by the Planning Federation all minutes of planning board meetings be taped and stored. Amortization of Zoning Many areas have formulated an amortized plan for carry- over 'spot zoning' and use carry-over (special exceptions). This consists primarily of arbitrarily eliminating a percentage of non-conforming properties which are in variance to the development plan. This is a most controversial issue at the moment. X. Cluster Zoning ~resently, there exists two forms of cluster zoning authori- zations to planning boards. The first is a resolution by the town board to give blanket authorization to the planning board to cluster properties which are deemed proper by the planning board. The second is that a referral be given to the town board by the planning board for each parcel of property submitted. The blanket authorization approach is considered preferrable by the New York Planning Federation. XI. Implimentation of Freshland Water Act Presently, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation is in the process of consolidating a uniform procedures method so that all permits and reviews may be gotten from one office. It will probably be 1977 before this procedure is established. Only 270 of the 1550 villages and towns complied with the September l, 1976 law and kept control of their freshwater wetlands. By not complying, these villages and towns have forfeited these rights to their respective counties. Southold Town did comply and is able to have its own jurisdiction under the State Environmental Quality Review Act. The minimum area to be considered wetlands is 12.4 acres. Smaller parcels may be considered by local government. XII. State Environmental Review Act - Environmental Impact Statements The following items are to be used as guidelines for environmental impact statements requested by planning boards: 1. Description of action 2. Impact of action 3. Adverse impact of action 4. Alternatives to action 5. Itemize loss of resources 6. Explain growth-inducing results 7. Examine effects on energy XIII. Comments During the conference, Fred Gordon and Mr. Raynor took advantage of procuring a printout of all present federal funding available to towns for specific community projects. There is a list of 28 projects for the town to study, ranging from water resources investigation and outdoor recreation to boat safety and historic monument preservation. I would strongly urge further study in these areas. Planning Board -11- Octo Jr 25, 1976 Mr. Raynor made a motion, seconded by Mr. Gordon and carried to approve the minutes of the meeting of October 4, 1976. Heritage Harbor. The following recommendations were received from Lawrence M. Tuthill, Town Engineer regarding this sub- division. That 3 catch basins and 3 leaching pools be placed as listed Lot #1 on east side Lot #2 at intersection of Wesphalis Road and Cox Lane Lot #10 on the south side It is inevitable that each homeowner will eventually drain at least 1/2 of his run-off water onto the highway by sloping of both driveway and front lawn. On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it was RESOLVED to accept the recommendations of Mr. Tuthill dated October 25, 1976 and forward copy of same to the applicant, his engineer and attorney. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it was RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board recommend to the Southold Town Board bond estimate prepared by Lawrence M. Tuthill, P. E. in the amount of $142,000 for the subdivision known as "Greenbriar Acres" located in Mattituck and owned by Werner Adel, Jr. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Gordon, seconded by Mr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED to hold a preliminary hearing on the subdivision known as "Col. Ted Dowd" subject to receipt of cross-sections and drainage information. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon Planning Board -12- Octo Jr 25, 1976 On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED to grant approval of the minor subdivision known as "Laurel Acres" owned by the Estate of Nicholas Piccione and Hans Rein, subject to the following: 1. Placing on the map that there will be no further subdivision of the property. 2. Filing of covenants and restrictions as to no further subdivision of the property. 3. Recommendations of the Suffolk County Planning Commission. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it was RESOLVED to grant approval to the minor subdivision of property of Richard A. Foster subject to recommendation of the Suffolk County Planning Commission. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Raynor, it was RESOLVED to have a public hearing on the minor subdivision of property of Barbara A. Howard located at Southold, New York, on November 15, 1976. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon Hortons Farms Estates - Richard E. Youug Location of the recharge basin was discussed and Mr. Tuthill will arrange a meeting with Mr. Dean and Mr. Young to discuss this matter. Hodor & Staller subdivision. The Board will review this map and make their recommendations. Planning Board -13- O~ ~ber 25, 1976 On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Coyle, it was RESOLVED to deny site plan approval on the property of Winds Way Building Corporation on the Middle Road (C.R.27) and request that a stop order be issued by the building inspector because there has been a substantial departure from the approved site plan. Amended drawings are necessary. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it was RESOLVED that the map of property of John Simicich located on Main Road, Southold, be approved subject to notation on the map that the right-of-way is reserved for possible future dedication to the Town of Southold. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Raynor, seconded by Mr. Gordon, it WaS RESOLVED to authorize the chairman to sign the maps of the subdivision of property of Christine King. Vote of the Board: Ayes;Wickham, Raynor, Coyle, Gordon On motion made by Mr. Wickham, seconded by Mr. Coyle, it was resolved that WHEREAS, our friend and fellow member, Alfred R. Grebe, has been lost to us through death, and WHEREAS, by his passing the Town has lost an esteemed and efficient officer and the people of the Town of Southold have been deprived of his wise counsel and judgment and the Planning Board of the Town of Southold has lost a faithful friend and associate, NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Planning Board of the Town of Southold expresses its sense of loss and its sympathy to the family of Alfred R. Grebe and that a copy of this resolution be entered in our minutes and a copy be sent to his family. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Wickham, Coyle, Raynor, Gordon Planning Board -14- O~ ~ber 25, 1976 Motion was made by Mr. Coyle, seconded by Mr. Gordon ~nd carried to adjourn the meeting. Meeting adjourned at 10:50 p.m. ~YJohn Wickham, Chairman Respectfully submitted, Muriel ]~rush, Se~etary