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Home My WebLink About02/09/1984 TRANSCRIPT - DRAFT ORIENT - HAMLET MEETING - FEBRUARY 9, 1984 SPONSORED BY THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS AND THE NORTH FORK ENVIRONMENTAL COUNCIL Joseph Townsend - On behalf of the of Women Voters, Town of Southold Town Board, League and the Southold Town Planning Board, I would also like to welcome you to the first unofficial sanctioned discussion of this new Southold Town Master Plan. This Master Plan as will become very much aware, I am sure, is not completed. We are here for your input and that you process will be further described by Mrs. Oliva'. I am glad to see we have such a turn out, although if I had realized there was going to be this many people I probably wouldn't be here. I guess a variety of emotions have brought us here tonight ranging from public spirited excitment and optimism on the part of some of us, all the way to confusion and outraged horror on the part of others. I think it is safe to assume that no one person has exactly the same idea on how Southold should look in the future. That's what makes formulating a Master Plans so difficult. Virtually no one is going to be completely satisfied. The only thing that I think we can agree on is that since 1967 when the last Master Plan was completed by Raymond & May, I think there is a map from that plan 1 over there, a lot has changed. whoever heard of condos or Temik and that they would be drinking fine and For instance in 1967 who would believe expensive wine grown on vinyards and bottled in wineries right here in Southold. Since that time the building industry in Southold has also gone through several periods of boom and bust. Right now, however, there has never been more pressure for growth and development. It was obvious to the Town Board and to the Town Planning Board that the old Master Plan was no longer appropriate. We, therefore, decided to interview several planners and on the basis of their presentation we decided to accept Raymond Parish Pine & Weiner's proposal. Mr. Stewart Turner who has directed the development of the Plan for that firm has defined the Master Plan as a statement of our aspirations and our goals. To arrive at this statement they gathered all informaton available on the Town's resources and interviewed many people representing the various associations, Chambers of Commerce, and interest groups. The map right there represents the synthesis of all this info. It also represents the completion of the second phase of the three phase project. This map and its accompanying report will provide the planning guidelines for making the necessary changes to our zoning laws. I am fairly certain, however, that only a part of it has been 2 recommended on this map will be accomplished. How much depends a lot on the input we Get tonight and on other meetings like this. Well, briefly stated, the goal of this plan is to preserve the rural quality of the life that we have now in Southold - or X-urban quality as they like to call it - which i gather is something between suburban and total boondocks, while allowing a modicum of growth around the hamlets. The proposal allows for some limited growth in light industrial and commercial areas and for some expansion of our marine and resort facilities. One major objective of this proposal is the preservation of farming. This can be accomplished by transferring the rights to develop farmland to those areas around the hamlets. This is a complex concept which we can discuss in greater detail later. As a Town Board member, we have not been formally presented with this plan. It still is in the stage where the Planning Board is going to refine and kick around some of the ideas they've come up with and then we will schedule more hearings on proposed you all can attend. As I has been kept informed of zoning changes which we hope say, while the Town Board the progress of the plan, it has really been the Planning Board which has worked closer to the planner and also the Master Plan workshop which Ms. Jean Tiedke was a member of. And am going to ask her to discuss in a little greater 3 Jean Tiedke depth the type of information that went into formulating this plan and after that Ruth Oliva will come up and talk about the type of exchange that we want to get into here tonight. So, Jean. I'm going to disappoint you. I am not going to go into this in depth at all. I am going to tell you, the workshop was a very interesting experience. Ruth, of course, was a member and we had, I think there were about nine or ten of us all together, five of whom appeared at all of the meetings. However, the RPP~ did come up with a whole series of positions - potential positions - which you can see here. This was a fairly extensive amount of work that they did. They addressed land use, agriculture, population and housing, the water problems which we know we have in great profusion, general environmental problems, development of more park space, open front space and public areas for swimming, et cetera, situation of schools, cultural things such as historical areas and archiological sites, economic factors including transportation, agriculture, jobs in general, fishing, et cetera. As you probably know, the League of Women Voters has been involved with town planning since the original plan came up way back in 1967, and I have a whole long file of things that we addressed then that we said we thought maybe should be done in the Town and Ruth Oliva - as I go over that file I find a number of things that have not been done, and as I went over the old plan, which came out originally in 1967, it took, I believe, four years before it reached it's final form and there are a number of things in that plan that have never been addressed by our town government, many of which are readdressed once again in the plan that we are talking about now. Of course, the League also put out a survey two years ago and I know that some of you here answered that survey for us, and we appreciated it, and it came out almost exactly the way the public attitude back in 1967 came out - save agriculture, don't push say more. Ruth. open space, save development too far. Need I i hope this is going to work. Can everybody hear me in the back? Fine. I just wanted to re-emphasize, because we had so many queries about it, that this preliminary map is just that, a preliminary map and just for discussion purposes only. It doesn't mean that your property is definitely going to be developed one way and you see it another way on the map. This is why we are having the meeting tonight so that we have your input and we will tape this and we will have a transcript made and we will have copies forwarded to RPPW, the Planning Board, and the Town Board, and if anybody wishes to read over these transcripts, they will probably be ready some time next month. I was speaking to Pauta Gilbert at RPP~ just the other day and she wanted me to tell you that this map shows an optimum situation that they feel is adaptable to the town of Southold for year round population of 40,000 but with public water and sewer in the hamlets in conjunction with a Now low density/residential means one unit acres, period. Medium density/residential find here per two you will looking at Pebble Beach and some other the transfer of development rights program. They feel that the density in the hamlets which they propose is really not too much different from what we have already, except in their plan, you will have to have public water and sewage to accommodate it. And they also want to say that there is a need for a Master Plan because it is so much better when you have a carefully controlled growth in a systematic fashion rather than having development creep up here, there, and everywhere, so that you might have a lovely house in one spot and perhaps an industrial plant in the other. That is why we have zoning, that is why we try to have Master Planners help us with our work. And I would like to just explain the different densities that are on this map. The first is low density/residential which you will see most of East Marion and Orient north of the Main Road. developments here in East Marion and roughly Brecknock and also in through where it is already developed here in Orient. Now medium density development is one unit per acre except if you have public water, then you may have two units Der acre. If you have both water and sewage you may have four units Der acre and hopefully tied in with a transfer of development rights program. Then they have hamlet density residential~ East Marion does not have any of that. Orient does. Right here on the west side of Tabor Road going down past Tabor and south almost to King Street. That would entail four to sim units Der acre with water and sewage, both public water and sewage, development rights and a per acre is to encourage and a transfer of the reason for the six units lower cost housing - not low cost housing - I said lower cost housing because we really do need this type of housing for our young people, :for our older people. There is no affordable housing here. At the rate we are selling off these lots at $165,000.00 an acre there isn't going to be any. Next we have residential/resort and you will see that here, for instance, where the condominiums are in Shipyard Lane. I don't think that needs any explanation. General commercial would be here just in Orient where the Country Store is and the hamlet centers are done right here in East Marion and they are calling for another hamlet center, a commercial area on the east side of Tabor Road, off the Main Road. Marine commercial are obviously up at, such as marinas up at Orient-By- The-Sea, and I think that is about the only one that we have here for that. have none of that here. If questions about that later, Light industry - we you want to ask that would be fine. just suggest additional industrial area which would be primarily office or high tech industries will be on the west side of Greenport, in Southold, and then in western Mattituck. None of the rest of these, oh, recreation, open space they have included the wetlands all around and some places have seen wetlands where they own a really means is that if the land is I know people lot. What this to be developed it goes before the Planning Board and the ZBA that they will be aware that this is an extremely sensitive area and to be careful of the way it is built upon. I think that more or less concludes what we I have to say here and now. I am going to put this mike over here, and if we do it the way we did last Thursday, it worked out very well that you just line up and pick up the mike and ask a question, tf any of us can answer the question, we will. If not, these remarks will be forwarded to RPPW and hopefully they will give you an answer at some later date. Don't forget there Constance Terry, Orient Point will be new hearings coming up. Once the zoning ordinances are set down, then the Town will be coming back to you for public hearings so just remember nothing here is set in concrete, and I hope later you will look at these different kinds of maps for just Orient. How they did that, they took what was already here, the factors involved and how they came to the conclusion of the final map which is on the right. So if you will just step up, anybody that has a comment. I'd like to ask a question. I've noticed on the map down towards the point Jean Tiedke - Would you give, please give your name when you address ..... Constance Terry - Constance Terry, Orient Point. On the map there is an area along the Sound shore the beach area, and it says "Public, Semi-Public". Now this happens to be, part of that happens to be my land which abutts the sound bank, Goes all the way. What does semi-public and public beach mean? Ruth Oiiva I will quote exactly. Public, semi-public uses in the Plan primarily includes schools, governmental offices, churches, fire houses, police stations, land-fill, libraries, post offices, and museums. Are you sure it is not open space because some of those are extremely confusing. Constance Terry - On this map it shows the beach area and it has that shading that ................ What I am referring to Jean Tiedke May I comment on that? Down on this right - to my right - the easel to my right, there is a map from the 1967 plan, and it shows very black lines along the edges of the shoreline, and I have been very concerned about this indication of open space all along our shorelines, also. Apparently, what it is, is beach areas, steep slopes, and wetlands. It does not mean they are going to take your beach. Their terminology is very bad. Ruth Oliva - I Connie here. and beach area think it showed too, probably on the map when looked at it it looked different than the map It is definitely just because it is a bluff to be Jean Tiedke Beach, bluffs, and wetlands. Constance Terry Because next to us where is, their area of beach is it is from there on west. to clear up. the Green Acres development a different shading than And that's what I wanted Jean Tiedke - I think there are going to be a lot of things that will be cleared up eventually. Joyce Terry, I'm Joyce Terry. I'm President of Stirling Cemetary Association On the proposed map they have an 10 Carleton Lattimer Ruth Oliva Joe Townsend - extension of County Road 48 but on the map it goes beyond New York State's 25 down as far as Manhansett Avenue. The Board of Trustees of Stifling is concerned the effect this will have on the cemetary and we are bordered by Route 25 on the~north and Manhansett Avenue on the west. The old part of the cemetary is in the Northwest corner with gravestones going back to the 1700's. We would like to know if this proposed route is going to encroach on the cemetary property and what effect it will have. - My question. Oh, my name is Carleton Lattimer. We bought the Rackett home diagonally across from the Post Office. My question is probably a foolish one, too, but we have only been here six months. Can you de~ine a hamlet for me. What is a hamlet as opposed to, say a village? Joe, I think you can answer that better than anybody. I'll do my best. I think a hamlet you would have to call an unincorporated section of relatively dense population within a township as opposed to a Village which is usually an incorporated entity with its own government. We have one village in Southold Town, and that's Greenport. There is one village in Southampton Town, which is Southampton, and so forth. !t Carlton Lattimer - Thank you. My second question is, I looked at the map last week and I find that generally in the vicinity where we live around the Post Office dark mark, saying something about it being is & industrial to a point, or something? Commercial. That was it. Yeah, in East Marion. does that mean? In other words, it home, so it our concern. What exactly encompasses our Ruth Oliva - That I think I'll have to refer to RPPW, but... I would assume that they primarily would be on the north side of the road - and not certainly if you're there, you're existing and they certainly can not kick you out. Carleton Lattimer - The map does not define on what side of the road, all I saw was I am suddenly sitting there in the middle and it would be commercial or whatever Jean Tiedke - Ruth, can I comment on that, too? I think originally RPPW used those marks to indicate a hamlet center - not a commercial area - just a hamlet center as being where there .... as in Southold, for instance, there's a pharmacy, there's a, you know, various little shops as a hamlet center, does not mean that your area is going to become commercial. What did he tell you? Marie Smith I spoke to Mr. Turner and he is a very unsatisfactory man to speak to. He has to hold for 12 ten minutes. But he explained to me that the hamlet center as a density commercially will take in both sides of the road. He now have a Post Office, a fire house, and a small store that's open for the summer, that causes a great deal of congestion. I'm sure everyone here knows about the congestion in East Marion. It takes you ten minutes to cross the road in the summer to get your mail. And I asked him why it was necessary. I said we're not really a hamlet, we're just a spot between Greenport and Orient. We have one store. That's all we want as far as the people I have spoken to say. He said, "Oh, well." And as his explanation of the open space in East Marion is very strange. Be takes in the cemetary. Well, I know people there don't do anything, they don't use anything, but it's hardly my idea of open space. And if your at all familiar with the Brooks property, the broken down house that's across from the Post Office, that's four acres that the developers are waiting in the wings to Grab. Only the Department of Welfare owns it, because they have a lien on the property - it will be up for auction soon. And there could be a very strange development there. But Mr. Turner believes that it is open space and is talking of making a right of way, he says there is a lake right there. Well, it is not a lake. It is a very mosquito ridden swamp. So, his answers are not 13 Carlton Lattimer Rose Columbimi, Pebble Beach Ruth Oliva Rose Columbimi - satisfactory. car in hamlet means. I don't think he ever got out of his East Marion. And East Marion does not meet density. I'll tell you what hamlet density Hamlet Commercial Density means stores, offices, all kinds of commercial development. We've got three shopping centers around Porky's circle, maybe just waiting to see if they'll happen. If we have stores in East Marion and then there'll be stores in Orient, they have a habit of spreading sideways until you have a continuous strip of development. Always ugly it looks just like hope that answers your question. from the horses mouth. Jericho Turnpike. I got it straight - Thank you very much. I assume they are not going to take our home and build an office building. I am Rose Columbimi from Pebble Beach. I noticed in the Suffolk Times, that there is indication that a road, an additional road, is being extended from the Long Way. Now the Long Way happens to be a private road. I would like to know what the purpose is, or what purpose it would serve. Aren't you speaking about - are you speaking about this road here? The Long Way going into Pebble Beach. The main road going into Pebble Beach. On this map it indicates 14 Ruth Oliva - Rose Columbimi Ruth Oliva - Rose Columbimi - Ruth Oliva Joe Townsend - that there would be an extension of that road. I think the only extension they are proposing is the extension of the road that goes east and west along ? Rocky Point Road up past Stars Road leading to a road that's a fire road here in East Marion that will go up to the beach which they are proposing for public access and park and recreation. The Long Way in East Marion, to Southern Place, continuing in until it dead ends at Dam Pond Road and routing traffic back. Which would be an indication to me that they intend to route traffic through it. It's a poor choice of words. According to this, if I can read it to you, i don't think so, I think that is basically going on from Rocky Point Road east to Dam Pond, extending that road not from Pebble Beach. Well, they indicated the Long Way. Right here it says the Long Way. I would like to know. since that is a private road, how they are able to do that. I don't think they can unless they could make it a town road. Joe. Just a comment on the road situation. Just a brief comment. If I understand, listening to the tapes of the last general meeting, their philosophy in 15 Rose Columbimi Jean Tiedke - developing and widening roads was to create a situation that would not bring increased development necessarialy into $outhold Town, but to eleviate traffic problems that are beginning to develop on Route 25 and some of the main arteries through the hamlets. It's been my experience that road widenings and extensions are about the least likely things to be accomplished as a result of the Master Plan, having seen roads appear on maps in the past and on surveys and so forth that never come about, because, just as you say, they are very controversial and people are not particularly enthusiastic about having roads in their back yards. As far as, as far as us appropriating a private road, the Town has the power to condemn, but I somehow think that that will not happen. If traffic problems become so great that we do have to widen roads, at that point I think we would probably consider that part of the Master Plan. That's a vague answer, but I do not believe that we will be taking over the Long Hay in the near future. i cannot see what possible purpose it would serve to open up a road up there. Could I ask a question at this point7 I live in Southotd Village - Southold hamlet and driving up tonight I was aware that the shoulders of Route 25 are in very bad shape in many places. Certainly we 16 Unidentified Audience George Smith - Jean Tiedke - Ruth Oliva Unidentified Audience - Unidentified have a bad traffic problem out here between Plum Island and the ferry traffic, not to mention the ordinary people who live here. Would it help, if instead of widening that road, there were improvements just to the shoulders? I-would like some comment from somebody about that. I'm sure it would help to improve the shoulders, but we all know that when the State gets ready, they are going to widen that road. My name is George Smith. I live in East Marion. I see four hamlet maps for Orient touching on various aspects of how it exists now and what is proposed for it. I see none for East Marion. I live in East Marion. Do such maps exist and where are they? Are they being kept under wraps, if they exist? Why weren't they prepared? Peconic does not have any, either. They only did these type of maps for Orient, Southold, Cutchogue, and Mattituck. We also pay taxes. difference between anywhere else. We school district, We also vote. There is no East Marion and Mattituck or have all our own election district, and so forth. We are entitled to it. 17 Audience - We're just as good. Ruth Oliva - Unidetified Audience - Anybody else? I don't have an answer. When will we get the answers? Ruth Oliva - We will ask RPPW. Herbert Mandell - My name is Herbert Mandell. I've made inquiry twice - once at a prior meeting and again at this meeting, before it started, as to why in laying out the zoning lines and map a central line of major highways was utilized to a great extent so that on one side of the same highway you might have agricultural and the opposite side of the same highways residential of various types and/or commercial industrial. I don't think that kind of a map and the assessed and in some cases even the impact of this evaluation of the communities has been thoroughly studied, if this is in fact the case. It is contrary to most zoning practice that I have ever seen. I have been involved in this kind of business all of my life, and I won't tell you how long that is - many years, and i think that some study should be given to that. Thank you. John Underhill John Underhill from Orient. Ruth mentioned there will be four to six units per acre in some sections of East Marion and Orient, providing that there is public water and public sewer. Does any public water and 18 Jean Bill Tiedke - Heinz - public sewer now exist in East Marion or Orient? OK. Now, who is going to pay for it. It's a tremendous undertaking and tremendous cost and so we don't end up with a fiasco like the Southwest Sewer District up island and this is going to happen. Ndt to mention the traffic because the roads have been torn up, you won't believe the Main Road in Orient the traffic from Plum Island and the ferry in the summertime is horrendous. But going back to the roads now, the road work, that's one thing. Also the speed limit up there is ............ traffic on the roads, tearing it up, the trucks and the bulldozers is going to be horrendous. There is no way we can get that public sewer and public water ......... it sounds almost impossible. They are covering all bases, is what they're doing. I'm Bill Heinz, from Orient. I live down the road a ways. And I have a separate piece of property in a separate deed from the one that is a true deed for my property, and I have been trying for a permit to put a house in there, but it was refused. Now you can put six houses on an acre if you have running water. I have plenty of water. Our cellar is full all the time, there is so much water in there. I have had big expense and I have been turned down and I am very upset about it. if you want to keep older folk in 19 Ruth Oliva - Bill Heinz Ruth Oliva - Bill Heinz - Joe Townsend - Bill Heinz - Joe Townsend town, you don't want older folk living here, you might as well say it, old and young will want to get out, whom will you get in here, and we've been here a long time. Now answer me that question, please. I don't disagree with Mr. Heinz. But according to RPPW the only time you can have sim units per acre would be if you have public water system, a public sewage system, a transfer of development rights, and one unit of housing for That is the as far as I those six units would be for lower cost the younger people and the older people. only way, and it really is in the future can see it. Well, myself because it is easier keep on the property that I have, but I leave Orient. Now what am i want to put a little house for my wife and and I can't do not want to going to do? I can't tell you that. I don't want to go to Florida. Mr. Heinz, how large is the second parcel that you have the deed on? The second parcel is two hundred fifty-five feet deep, but it's about ninety feet wide, and I was refused. So that's just shy of an - is that shy of an acre? 20 Bill Heinz - Joe Townsend - Bill Heinz - Joe Townsend - Bill Heinz - Joe Townsend - Bill Heinz Lloyd Terry - Just shy of A half-acre. Well, we have, we have one acre zoning in $outhOld since 1971, so that's the size...unless it was an approved lot before that, if it was sub- divided after seventy-one then it's been since that time that that. since you wouldn't have been able to build on parcel, unless it was sub-divided previous to Then you might have a case for it. Well, we bought this lot especially for that purpose so that we could eventually build on that, if the house got too big and the property got too big. The only thing ~' ~na~ i can think of is that the Health Department may be the ones that No. It's the Town. The guys on the Town Board turned me down. It was a building lot prior to ...... It wasn't a building lot. It was not a building lot. Maybe I should apply again, I don't know. I'll tell you one thing, you are chasin,~ the young people and the old people out, believe me. At the present time you have several people engaged in what is now classified as non-conforming business. If this Master Plan goes through, how is 21 Joe Townsend - Lloyd Terry - Ruth Oiiva - Betty King this going to effect these people? Are they going to be put out of their business, or are they going to have to be forced to go somewhere else in a classified zone? You have two acres alloted in, unless I am mistaken, for business. We have less than that now. any of the pre-existing uses. pre-existing use, and unless So it shouldn't change Pre-existing use is a you want to take special zoning action to eliminate pre-existing uses, the use of the land will remain the same. So, if you have a non-conforming use, you will continue to have a non-conforming use. tt seems to me this it is an infringement on our rights and I can't help but wonder on how the members of the Boston Tea Party would react to something like this. And also, I wonder how many people who aren't farmers would like to have their securities attached from time to time, and say you've got to set aside fifteen percent because we can't let Wall Street collapse. I think you're treading on pretty thin ice. Anybody else? My name is Betty King. I feel sorry for the old gentleman who can't build on a piece of property he has bought. I feel very sorry for the young people a piece of property who settle for 22 Jean Tiedke Betty King - Jane Gohorel something in Greenport for $25,~00.00 Like he said, the old people are squeezed out and so are the young people, and it's going to continue that way. Now let's go to the Planning Board for business area. You say it's less than how many-acres? Less than two. Are we going to continue having non- conforming business in Orient, and if we are is it always going to be the petitions before the Board, are all of us going to have to go through that forever? can't see that kind of planning is going to take care of what's going to be become in the future. Not from the way What would you recommend? I don't know. But I just don't think that that's the answer. Now here is the question. This gentleman has water. It would never be allowed if he has water for a home if he isn't going to be allowed to build a home on it. Some little like that would certainly support a business - building - and making some profit on that one. I mean, those small parcels of land .... I mean, the public should be protected. This man has spent his money and bought it and now he cannot build. What is he going to do? Nobody else wants it - they can't build on it either. My name is Jane Gohorel from East Marion. I wonder if you could e×piain the meaning of the transfer of 2~ Joe Townsend - development rights and receiving period. I read of this plan in the Suffolk Life yesterday, a broad outline of the major aim of the Master Plan. And there was talk about transfer of from areas which are meant to be farmland to receiving areas. what that means. development rights preserved as open And I don't understand I'll do my best. I haven't been too close to the development of this plan, but I do think I understand the concept of the transfer of development rights as it has been applied here. Basically, what they want to do - a parcel of land has a lot of rights attached to it. One of those rights is the right to develop or the right to put a house on it. What they want to do to preserve the farmland, is to allow that particular right to be sold and transferrred to another area. Preferably - and you see them as areas of medium density around the hamlets, in other words you have an area of medium density, you like to build one house on one acre - which is the way it used to be here in Southold Town all over. Now you could put two houses on one acre if you had a water system or four houses if you had a water and sewer system, but you would have to buy the development right from the farmer to do that. That area is called the receiving area. They put some additional wrimkles into this, which is what I think 24 the gentleman who spoke just a little while ago was referring to, in that they would make it impossible for a farmer to sub-divide in lots greater than ten acres, less than ten acres rather, but they will allow that farmer the right to sell his development rights to someone that wanted to build higher density dwelling around the hamlet~ farmer to get the value of value of his land, without This would allow the his land, the development developing it. It occurs to me there are a lot of problems with that it's an interesting concept, but I think that there has to be a market for that to work, for the farmer not to be hurt. And we have to pursue that further and analyze that legislation involved in enableing that and also there is the talk about the concept of the land bank which the Town would operate. In other words the Town would acquire development rights much as they acquire development rights now through the Farmland Preservation Program through outright buying them acquisition and then they would distribute, they would sell those rights to developers who wanted to build higher densicy dwellings, perhaps low income housing units where they want to put sin units per acre so that some of the young people and older people can afford to own housing, put that and they could sell those development rights to those people and buy more of the developing rights of farmland elsewhere. 25 Gert Reeves Ruth Oliva Jean Tiedke have preserved farming in in In doing so they will Southo!d Town. That's the basic idea, and I know it is a little confusing, but I'm not hardly conversant it. I'm Gert myself that I would not get up and talk. There are a few of you out there who have been around here a little bit of a while. Do you recall how many farms there were in Orient alone? Guess how many there are Reeves, and I made a positive announcement to now. Three farmers or two, and I remember when there were over thirty-five, and I'm not that old. What are these people going to do that mortgaged their property, that want to sell~ Up in Southold, on the beach there's a lot of houses, and for sewage they piled them on top of the ground and then built sand up over the top. There are places in Orient where they are refusing to allow people to build because the water is only three feet below. Why can't we build up with sand on top of it? I believe .... I can answer that. County Board of Health changed regulations as far as cesspools go, that not allow any more mounding. That was a years ago. That's how that came about. I believe the their rules and they did couple of We do occasionally learn something. 26 Ruth Oliva Anybody else? Ralph Martin Yes, it seems ... I'm Ralph Martin from East Marion. i think everybody can hear me - I talk very loud anyhow. It seems like there seems to be quite a bit of population density here, there and everywhere else. But have these consultants actually sat down and taken a straw poll or referendum as to how much the citizens, the tax payers, and the people who live here now want the land developed, only what they can think of or what the Town Council says it might be better to develop everything and get rid of it. Now East Marion has no, as far as I can see, has no farmland left in it after, in the Master Plan. I, for one, would rather not see all of the open land gone for development. I would like to see some open land left. But have these consultants found out, the people who live here, what we would like. It's not so much the Town Board - they are our custodians, but are they really or are they in their own fiefdom, as in the past and probably sometime in the future, to do what they so desire with lack of regard to the people who live here and pay here. Ruth Oliva - I think that that is why we are having these hearings, so that they do have the people's input to see what they want. Ralph Martin - i mean the developable land develop it one hundred 27 Jean Tiedke - percent, fifty percent, twenty-five percent or what. Where do you start from. Where do they get their ideas of what is best for Southold? How many of them really live here and have something here that we have? I would say very few, if any~~ Ruth, may i comment on that also? Mr. Martin, way back in the middle or late 1960's Cornell University did a survey in Southold Town - quite an in-depth survey, ran pages and pages and pages. One of the major findings was that at that time the public in Southold Town wanted to save open space. When the Raymond and May plan came out about 1967-68 one of their major points was save open space. When the League of Women Voters did a survey two years ago a major point was save open space. We just hope they listened. (End of Side ~ 1) 28 (Side ~ 2> Ruth Oliva ......... This is one of the reasons to have these meetings so that they know, for instance, that you don't want it that dense, that you perhaps don't want double the population that you hage now in town. Maybe you want to prepare a plan that says for thirty thousand people, not forty thousand people. This is for forty thousand people year round, but with no time limit. They never put a time limit. This could be in the year two thousand, it could be in the year two thousand fifty. They are just saying this is the optimun, this is how many people, the saturation point, if you're going to save ten thousand acres of farmland. Ralph Martin if they want to save - but the question is so they can check and see what we want. Ruth Oliva - As I said, that's why we're here holding these hearings. That's why your comments will be forwarded to them. Janice Robinson - My name is Janice Robinson. i would just like to say that I like the idea of allowing the revolving land banks and Stu Turner brought it up at the meeting at the Peconic Youth Center. I hope that we will be able to hear some more information on it and I hope that others will be able to have something to say about whether the land gets purchased and also whether, do 9 Joe Townsend - we know at this point whether it will be individual towns doing the purchasing or will it be towns, like will it be Southoid Town, or will it be done by Orient or East Marion or .... and will the money be raised by taxes or how will the money be raised.- We've got a Farmlands pretty much dedicated development be able to, Preservation Program which is to the outright purchase of rights and thats it. However, what we may and actually that's the simplest way to preserve open space. Because then you don't have to worry about anybody who owns the land who might be concerned about what's happening to his, the value of his land. So just the outright development rights to the land preserve what we have here now. buying of the is the simplest way to But that's when the taxpayers, that's when push comes to shove, that's when the taxpayers have to put their money where their mouth is. After that it gets a little more difficult and you are forced to come up with concepts like the transfer of development rights so that people that own land can get something for their birthright, something for what they saved for. But, in the transfer of development rights, the developer is the one that buys the development rights. Now he may buy them from the land bank which is a town wide thing, but the developer buys the land, the development rights for the farmland. There is a lot of questions, as I say. For instance, how do you establish the value of the right? Obviously the development right on the Sound is going to be worth more than the development right next to the Cutchogue dump. How do you develop, you know, the cost of those development rights? The people that live next to one of these area, these receiving areas, tha~ is used to looking out over a field that now is zoned two acres, all of a sudden finds out that they are going to have eight houses next to them. How do you handle their complaints? Because your going to get a lot of problems that way. I mean, it is very nice to conceive of opening up all of the farmland, and I'm a hundred percent for it, but when next to my house is going to be a sub-division of four houses on one acre, I might get a little nervous. So there are going to be problems that come about as a result of the development rights program, but idealy the entity that buys the development right is the developer. So that we don't have, as taxpayers, don't have to Day for all of the open land, and the developer can get a more economical density, to create more economical housing or high priced housing, whatever he wants to do in an area that close to services and so forth. But its not, individual hamlets are not going to buy development rights. The Town is going to continue to buy development rights for farmland preservation, I hope. but under this 31 proposal, the developers are the ones that development rights through the town bank. can designate where they are going. ideas. One of which, I don't know here, but he inspired it in a way, buy the That way we I have some other if John Tuthi!l is of using, of letting a farmer in lieu of taxes dedicate development rights, so if the farmer is having trouble paying for his, paying his taxes, and wants to hold on to his land, maybe he can sell the Town the development rights in lieu of taxes. I don't know if that's legal or not, but that's another kind of thing. Other things one project, one thing that Ruth Oliva is very very fond of is whats going on in Nantucket. Some of you may have read that section in the New York Times where they, on purchase for second homes of more than a hundred thousand they put a two percent tam on the transaction, and that money goes for the purchase of open land. That way it doesn't affect the people that are trying to buy a small house as their primary dwelling within the town. It's an interesting concept. We haven't got that legislation down here. But these are things that can be accomplished. That's a lengthy answer to a very simple question. Jean Tiedke Yeah. Joe, if you don't mind. about saving open space. I and my husband can do. I'd like to add a little bit to that, too, A lot of us are concerned Now, there's not much that We live on one third of an 32 Ruth Oliva acre in the hamlet of Southo!d. Joe mentioned somebody being alarmed on getting four houses on an acre next door to them. That is really not that terrible a problem, I can assure you. Because I live in an area where there are a lot of quarter acre, one third, and one half acre, and that's the Founders Landing Estates, just south of the Main Road. It does grant tax benefit to the person who owns the land. You could also, of acreage can donate to Nature a very nice tax break thereby State. There are a lot of lots people who own a lot Conservency and get both Federal and in our hamlet centers which are small lots, which are in existance, which are not going to be wiped out by the two acre zoning, which are available for much less than fifty, sixty, seventy thousand dollars. And I think that we should encourage the development of what they call in-fill lots, in other words, behind my house there'e one that's one third of an acre. This could be built on. We live on one third of an acre. The house has been there for fifty, sixty years. We do have water from Greenport. This is the kind of development that I think we should encourage because we do need places for older people. We do need places for our young people. ! might just add. I think we have about forty six hundred of these in-fill lots ranging in size from a quarter acre all the way up to a few acres. it's worth looking into. Jay? So, Jay Bredemeyer My name's Jay Bredemeyer. My feelings personally as a resident of the hamlet, the younger person with the transfer of development rights are not going to serve the needs of the younger and the older people. You're asking that group of people in the future to pay for public sewage, public water, as well as maintaining open land for purpetuity. You add these costs up and this will be the absolutely most expensive developable property that you have ever seen in this town. Also, if your looking to preserve open space, I think you will have to 10ok for some kind of tax base for the farmers and I think we're all going to have to pay for it. The transfer of development rights, to me, does not seem like a good procedure for doing that. I just see the cost being astronomical. Plus the fact it isn't working. We've found our nest beautifully by providing food for the better portion of the country, and, I don't know, maybe it's going to be technology that's going to do it. Somebody is going to have to aside from being responsibilities big problem coming up darker shading pay for it. Now, as a Town Trustee. a resident of the hamlet, I have in that area, and I see a really for Mattituck Inlet. The of the map would indicate more dense 34 Ruth Oliva - Marjory Smith Ruth Oliva use, or more commercial uses. And the 208 study and other studies show that there seems to be more pressure on that particular area and that's very similar to the situation to the that existed in the Great South Bay Area where the Town Board had given up, could not afford the cost of the clean-up program which were designed to get their shell fishing waters back into So, I foresee Mattituck Inlet being totally lost to all shell fishing and the rest of us here are already complaining about it, being shut down. So I think that sort of a situation is something that the developers should look into. I think if you want to have forty foot pleasure boats docked end to end at Mattituck it would make that our marine recepticals, you might consider doing that. Otherwise, I don't see Mattituck as a viable body of water for shell fishing. Anybody else? Marjory Smith from Orient. residents who were unable Papantonios. And i would need a commercial area out here? one to me. I don't understand it. I have this letter from to be here tonight, the like to ask, why do we This is a strange I think their answer was to our question about that quite a while back at workshop was because of the 35 proposed increase in population along the north side of Route 25 in Orient, that instead of conjesting the roads going all of the way into Greenport, it would be more feasible to have like just another general store or what have you in the village. Marjory Smith ! can't agree with this at all. You are opening a Pandora's box. Connie Terry - Ruth Oliva - May I just add a line to that. having a small commercial area added main road is so that people won't go If the point of to Orient's to Greenport, the only reason they won't go to Greenport is that if you develop it into a large Key Food, IGA. A & P, another country store is only going to hurt Linton and add nothing to the rest of the ....... Anybody else? Isabelle Wiggin - Isabelle Wiggin. I wonder if the Long Island Sound Study recommendations were taken into consideration as far as the Dam Pond area? Ruth Oliva - I believe I did mention it, Isabeile, to them that it had been on the Tri-State Planning as preserving part of Dam Pond. As i said, the only thing that's now on Dam Pond, they are proposing really on the Sound front to make a public beach out of it, because there really are very few areas in Southold Town that are owned by the Town as access to the 36 Unidentified Audience - Sound, which is unfortunate. I did mention it. Anyone else? Now is your chance. You like it. You don't like it. Suggestions. The last question was very appropo. Do you like it or don't you like it. are no maps up there show the real zoning can I don't know because there of East Marion which actually that you have in mind. All I say is that RPP&W has not done their homework. Ruth Oliva - Unidentified Audience - I would just like to add one thing, that when this is the general process i don't disagree with, you know, your premis of not having a map for East Marion. But, when they come out with the zoning maps, as you can see with these maps, they are not done lot by lot, but the zoning map will be, each lot will be designated at what zone, and perhaps through your input they will have a more definitive approach to East Marion. This will be in the next couple of months. They are going to start working on the zoning ordinances. I guess the thing that bothers me in all these kind of meetings, is that someone, it could be a developer, it could be someone designing a Master Plan, is that we appear, and we look at a bunch of presentations on I'm sorry for the people of East Marion that they don't have the graphic artists that 37 Ruth Oliva - Orient deserved for some reason or other but, there it is and now that we continue to conserve the gasoline by driving here, there, and everywhere to say that you can't do that to my piece of property, or you can't do that to my neighbors property, when does it get down to the individual property owner who says,"Yes" or "No" or "Don't do that across the street" or so on and so forth. In other words, are we now at combat situation against, or in favor of this plan? How do we actually say what we want as individuals? In other words, what form does our input take? I would suggest, as Henry Raynor had suggested last Thursday night, that anybody that has a specific problem or request or desire, or what have you, to write to Henry Raynor at the Planning Board at Town Hall. And he assured everyone there last week, that each letter will be very carefully reviewed, so i suggest that you write there. Then also, when the zoning ordinances are drawn up, we will all have to, and the Town Board, will have to come back to each hamlet again to present these and there will be public hearings, and these will be lot by lot, and it's another chance to say "Yes, we want it" and "No, we don't want it" in a very specific area. Yes? 38 Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oliva - Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oliva Estelle Adams - You mentioned that there might be a possibility of Dam Pond becoming a public beach. No, there's just one public area up on the Sound there on Dam Pond that they are proposing as a public beach. But, again you have a lot of processes to go through. First of all, the road is just a fire road and privately owned, the beach is privately owned, this piece of property is up for development. So there are a great many problems. You just can't snatch property away from people. I mean you have to compensate them in some way, as a last resort, but you have to have their O.K. unless you condemn it. That's too involved. That was my second question. Is that the reason they are extending the Long Way because it is going to come in to Dam Pond Road. That's the reason. Yes. That's one reason. Also to relieve the congestion up there because there will be more homes. I'm Estelle Adams from Orient. times when people have mentioned that one of ways that extra old rents There have been the could be possibly feasible to take care of people or some of our younger people at that are not too prohibitive would be to give 39 permission to some of these larger, older houses that could be separated into two living units with a stipulation as far as density and all is concerned. Now, should this come up, would this then entail transfer of development rights? Joe Townsend - That's been discussed apart from the Master Plan proposal, at various code committee meetings. And, it seems we've planned to take action regarding two family houses several times, at the last minute, something always comes up. It is going to be considered in the Master Plan. We are considering several proposals allowing apartments above commercial property in commercial zones. Things that would theoretically allow for less expensive kind of apartment. Dividing up some larger buildings built prior to 1940 would, having a certain floor space, is another consideration. But you have to be careful with environmental considerations and so on and so forth. But we are also cognisant of the fact that families are not the same size as they were, today, and those houses outlived their usefulness to a large degree, in many instances, and that might be an appropriate use. We were thinking about creating two family districts in areas where the proponderance of these houses .... there's been a lot of illegal apartments put in in the las5 twenty years. It is a very difficult thing 4~ to enforce, and even if you make it legal, it's probable that these people will not come forward. To regulate it you have to have a very large staff, a well paid staff, creating even more problems. But we do plan to solve that particular problem in the next year or so - the two family housing. It has been addressed and we have come to the some conclusions and I think you will see the answer in the next year or so. Jean Tiedke - I would like to I understand it house you would that correct? speak about that, too, Estelle. As right now to have a two apartment have to have it on two acres. Is Ruth Oliva Four acres· Jean Tiedke - Four acres. All right. Because of the two acre zoning. Now this is, this is kind of silly· Speaking for myself, we live in an eight room house on one third of an acre. For thirty years there were four people living in that house because successive families had two kids, including us. Our kids are gone, those kids, obviously, are long gone, so now there are two people in an eight room house. So, presumabely, if we wanted to turn our upstairs into an apartment it would be a nice size apartment, three big rooms with a kitchen and a bath, we would have five rooms and a kitchen and a 41 Bill Heinz - bath - we would probably not use any more water than a family of four had used, but i don't know what the Zoning Board of Appeals would say if i went to them tomorrow and said we want to do that. I bet they would say "Absolu~e!y no". And this is something that is going to have to be clarified relatively quickly, in my opinion. You talk about two family houses that people are converting and there are many illegal ones, right? Well, I went to the Town Board and I bought an old house in the town of Southold. It had about seven bedrooms and I liked that house and everything about it~ And I went down and I got permission to convert to two family. When I got those two family in everything done the best, whatever I do I do the best I put in a cesspool and it had two rings and a dome and around it was nothing but sand. Then who comes along - the Department of Health found out in time. He said "Rip that out. You need another cesspool". I had to rip that out, put three domes, put three rings and a dome. That was the one apartment. And for the ezactly the same thing. do when they go for That cost me money. other apartment I did That is what people have to a permit. Let me tell you this. And in one upstairs apartment I had only one person living in there for many years, and downstairs two people. Now tell me, do two 42 Joe Townsend - Bill Heinz - Robert Douglas people - and I ask them, suppose I put a welfare family in here. Then you don't have to put any cesspool, just one ring will be fine. Now where does this come in? ~ I'm not familiar with the provisions of the Health Department. I was railroaded. And that was Health from Riverhead. Now the if you want to rent your house, guys - do it on the sly. the Department of people I warn you, don't go to those My name is Robert Douglas. i couple of things on this map I Number one, marine industries. reside in Orient. A think are very lax. Several of the marine industries on this map are already existing. Now anybody that's in business in Southold Town knows that our resources are from the water. Where are these people going to go. Where is the money going to come from? There is no room for expansion. The second thing is, open space is great. But who's going to pay for it. i mean, how much can ....... in that class there isn't a handful that is left in Southold Town, they can't stay here. As far as traffic on the highways, you haven't seen nothing yet. The New London ferry lines right now is building another boat in Florida to start this summer. You think the hundred car ferry was bad, Bob Scott - you wait, now you got two one hundred car ferries thats going to run this line. This is going to continue. How long before they go around the clock? And as far as commercial businesses. .Who wants commercial businesses? Do you want someone to pick up your garbage every week and pump your cesspool when it's overfu!l? Where is he going to go? Do you realize just how few actual nonconforming businesses there are in Southold Town? Look at the map. Go talk to the town. You'll be dumbfounded - all your friends that do your plumbing, your heating, your electrical work, just how many of them are not covered under nonconforming uses. Hi. I'm Bob Scott, and I'm in Orient now. The thing I am trying to address is something similar to Mr. Heinz. He~s got a piece of property that is ninety by two hundred fifty wide. There's other people who have had a quarter acre piece of property that were, at one time, zoned and proper to build on. if Mr. Heinz had put that into another name, given it to his son, his son would be able to build on it right now. I think the study should absolutely anybody - I think the study should think about these ones, these lots, that were previously allowed to be built on to allow them across the board, not whether it is single or separate ownership, or whatever, if they were allowed at one 44 Joe Townsend time to be built on, if they were eighty by a hundred, if they were ninety by two fifty-five, if they were an acre, whatever the story is, less than the two acres they should be allowed to be built on, and then young people and old people can live on them. When the zoning ordinance was changed in 1971 from less than an acre to an acre, at that point lots that were not owned in single and separate ownership and adjacent to each other, contingent to each other, were merged. So thereafter everything had to be one acre if you owned, if you owned two lots next to each other, they were merged. At the most recent upzoning, two acres, we eliminated that aspect of it, so if you own two one acre lots next to each other, and they were considered separate lots, you could, you did not have to checkerboard them - in other words, you still had two building lots. Checkerboard means put them in different names. It's a device used to avoid the joining of contingent lots. t think what we are talking about, if somebody separates a lot, and puts it in a different name, it has to be a good building lot. You're not going to be able to build on it if it is small in size even if it's in a different name if you separate a piece of land. The reason that was done, on tots less than an acre, was that the reason 45 Pat Lyons Ruth Oliva Unidentified Audience we went up to an acre originally was because the Health Department demanded that every lot that didn't have sewer or water be at least an acre, so Southold Town, some months after that, came through, we went along and raised our zoning to-one acre and the joining of lots happened at that point. It's been that way now for thirteen or fourteen years. As Ruth said, we do have forty six hundred lots available, most of which are an acre or less~ My name is Pay Lyons from Orient. Mr. Heinz, we had a house and went through the whole Zoning Board of Appeals situation and, low and behold, we have a legal two family house in Orient. So it does work. Maybe we got lucky. But I think that this problem with the two family units could be used to help preserve a lot of the older houses that, unfortunately, are not going to be feasible now. And I think there should be some bending of the rules a little bit, even things like making sure that the second unit is rented on a year round basis to a full time resident. These are restrictions that I think that should be considered and all, more- help to everyone. Thank you. Anybody else? I just want to know if the people that are doing the 46 Ruth Oliva Unidentified Audience Ruth Oliva - Gert Reeves - study did address the problem that Mr. Douglas just mentioned about the increase of the Long Island ferry boat service between here and New London. i think they did take that into consideration with their transportation studies, and that's why they are proposing, if the ferry keeps increasing and we have more population, to widen the four lane highway out to Manhasset Avenue. ........ If this becomes an interstate type of transportation system, then i can't understand why our state keeps pouring money into it, does that mean that the proposed portion of road out to Manhassett, couldn't that also mean that eventually it would be coming ail the way out to here? As the man says, it is supposed to be dynamic, and dynamic means change. Who knows? Right? I think we've been sold a bill of goods, anyway. Southold Town, I understand, I might be wrong, has decided to give money to the New London Freight Lines, or whatever it's called now, Cross Sound Ferry, to build additional roads and parking lots, and a two story ticket office, waiting room. In Connecticut they built their own. Why do we have pay for it? to 47 Ruth Oliva - Joe Townsend - We didn't pay for it. I'!l let Joe answer it. Actually, I don't know too much about that proposal. I do know, and I think, I do know that the County is providing low interest loans for businesses in certain areas. We would administer that County money. It's part of, I don't know even what grant program it comes out of, I think it comes out of community development, but I'm not sure. We would administer that money to any qualifying business. You get the advantage of the interest, we don't put out the money. However, we are responsible for the money going back, so have good collateral deserves that money. we have to be very sure from wherever we decide There are a couple of that we businesses from Southold Town that have applied, one of them was the Cross Sound Ferry. And that's as far as I know it's gone. I have not voted on anything like that yet, as far as I know - it's possible I was out to lunch - probable. But, as far as t know, it has not been completed as of this date. There has been articles in the paper to that effect, but as far as I know it has not been accomplished. That's where that is. But it is not Southold Town's money. We are not taking tar payers money or Grant money of our own and putting it into some ..... 48 Gert Reeves - Joe Townsend - Ruth Oliva - Robert Berks Ruth Oliva Marie Smith - O.K. It is not Southold Town's money, it's our money. We are all taxpayers. Now, as we both know. We are going to have two hundred cars going up the road, we are not going to get out of our driveways, i can't get out of here on this road ndw with the boat traffic. I have to wait until all the traffic is gone you can't get out. Some people want to put up a traffic light. We don't want one to begin with, but we may have to. The other thing is, when they come down to widen the road, to Orient, Main Road. We've got is going to be on the road. Droskoskies are going to have to move back. How much do they own behind so them. take a ride down Lloyd Terry's All the their houses they can move So am I. They will have to have more public hearings ......... Anybody else? I'm Robert Berks from Orient. I would like to make a suggestion, it's all very good that the planners will, at their leisure, listen to this tape. But at the next meeting ! would like them here to face us and answer us directly. I'm sure they will be. I'm a practical person and I worry about silly 49 Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oliva - Dan Latham - Ruth Oliva Dan Latham little things like fire houses and schools. We are going to have an increased population. Are they going to be sterile, not smoke in bed, or anything? They'll have no children in school, no fires? haven't seen nor heard one representative from a fire department or a school out here. Don't they have anything to say? Are they planning for an increased population? That will cost us more money. Where do we address a letter if we have an interest in the town? Name and address. Mr. Henry Raynor, Chairman, Planning Board, Town Hall, Southold, New York 11971. Danny. With all these lines in so called areas for high ~evelopment, low development, and farmland and such, is there any definite population that they have set for Orient and East Marion? NO. Just to look at the area of East Marion, they have a right to complain. Right now there is a sucessful farm in East Marion and there's a lot of land and is owned by development, and East Marion, you look at the map, and in ten years there will be nothing left of East Marion but solid development, and the north side of Orient, if the Town is supposed to have 50 Ruth Oiiva - Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oiiva - Unidentified Audience - Ruth O!iva - Jean Tiedke - Unidentified forty thousand people, does that mean that Orient and East Marion are going to get twenty thousand We'll have to ask them that question. I don't think they have come to any definite population for each hamlet area. That, maybe, will come up in the new zoning and you can tell better. Will these consultants be here at the next meeting? I think so. I would love them to hear some of our suggestions. I do think so. Yes. I think ... I don't believe you mean the next meeting because the next meeting will be on the Southold hamlet. But when the zoning comes up, that's what your saying, that's when they will be back again, and the Town Board will be involved with that very deeply. I would like to ask a question of all of you, particularly you from ... well, two questions. One to the people from East Marion. You know that Orient has an historic district. Do you think that it would be worth while trying to set up an historic district in the center of East Marion? Have any of you thought about that? 51 Audience - Jean Tiedke Joe Townsend - Unidentified Audience - Jean Tiedke - Unidentified Audience - Jean Tiedke - Unidentified Audience Jean Tiedke - For what purpose would it do? To preserve the cultural heritage that we have which is, a lon of it has gone down the drain already. There's a process going on, Jean, there's a process going on where they will be going through all the historic... How would that effect development? If the houses are there, it would keep them from being torn down. The other question I want to ask is to ... The other question I would like to ask is, what do you recommend for Orient Point itself? Do away with it. Do away with the whole Point? Would you like to see a State park out there, a Town park, a local community park, or do you want condominiums, do you want ... what do ~ou want? Well, all I heard was "no"s and a lot of buzz. Leave it the way it is, but who's going to pay for it? Public interest. Suppose that we could get a fund going for a town-wide park out there. What would you do? Would you all contribute, or would you say 52 Unidentified Audience - Jean Tiedke - Ruth Oliva Joe Townsend Ruth Oliva Dan Latham - Ruth Oliva - Dan Latham - Ruth Oliva - no town park the way you did before. We already have a park - Orient Beach State Park. A Town park, I said. Think about it. Joe, do you have anything to say in conclusion? No, ah... No one else has anything? Danny? ? want to ask about this agricultural land. Once it gets to be zoned and it is zoned agricultural land, that is it? I mean, it is going to be an agricultural land for eternity? Nothing is in perpetuity, but that would be the hope, I think would be ten acre zoning. Hope? Hope? They can't just one area in the Town is going just because a want it to be. happens twenty sit there and say that to be agricultural hundred percent of the people here I want it to be, too. But what years from now if the farmer is not eligible to keep on farming? What is he going to have to farm a two hundred and fifty acre or three hundred acre farm and not be able to do anything with it? I think that's why Joe said that the old TDR program 53 Dan Latham - Joe Townsend - is very complex and has to be looked at very carefully. Deed my farm, deed my rights to Billy Gil!oolly so he can put six houses on an acre across the street? I don't think it is going to work. It's not going to work. You can zone an area agricultural, as long as you want you can call it agricultural for years, but until it comes down to a Supreme Court decision, that man has a right to sell that land. Anybody, you know ... if your land is in agricultural zone and you have sold your rights, it is like any other covernent. the new development it's a covernent that goes with that land. You've sold that right, and you can't get it back. if there's a buyer. You see, the problem is that there has to be a buyer, I think, to make it work. to be assured, assuming that there land in Town, if there's no market The farmers have is a market for for any land in Town, then nobody can expect the land to be bought. But, there is the reasonable assumption they are going to be able to get something out of the land other than, you know, a vacant piece of farmland when they are all through with it. The concept of buying the development rights thing is that the farmer should be able to get compensated for the developmental value of his land. If it doesn't 54 Dan Latham Joe Townsend Dan Latham Joe Townsend Lloyd Terry - work, then it's no good. If that can't happen, then it's no ... as far as I'm concerned, it's no good. Does that change the zoning. I mean, once it's zoned agricultural lands forever, you can't sell that property for ... You see, that's the little enforcer they put in there that, you know, the zoning would be ... the farmer would still have the right to sell his develoopment rights but he wouldn't have the right to develop it himself. But I'm not asking that. I'm asking once it is termed agricultural, zoned agricultural, that's'it. That's it, until it next changes over. in 1927 there were thirty-three farmers in Orient. I think it has been stated that, as of now, there's three, more or less, farmers. And a few others delving in it in small acreages. I think the handwriting is pretty clear on the wall, and it's all well and good to say we want all this lovely space. How many of all you people are coming down and buying land and going into the farming business? You are leaving it in the hands of the few existing farmers, continue in debt, and you are going to penalize them if they to farm and say, even though they may get as many of us have, you can't sell your 55 Joe Townsend Lloyd Terry - Joe Townsend land for anything else. ridiculous. This is absolutely Well, they will have sold the land, though. They will have sold that option, theoretically. Sixty percent of the farmers in the United States, if you have watched that TV recently, and some of them I saw crying on television when they were being auctioned off. It's not just Orient that is losing farmers, we are losing them all over. How many of you people would stay in hundred thousand dollars said you got to stay in with private rights. business if you lost a in one year? And somebody it. I think we're meddling Maybe you're right and maybe it won't fly. You know, there are a lot of questions. The only thing that is consistant is, by way of conclusion, is change. And, you know, if there are enough farmers go out of business, what are we going to eat. There has to be farmland. There will always be a need for farmland. It will become profitable very quick if everybody goes out of business, as you can attest here. How many more people want to ask a question or make a comment before ... how many more people? May I just have a show of hands? That want to ask ... one, two ... OK, we'll have ... three, four let's have four more questions and then call it an 56 Unidentified Audience Ruth Oliva - Unidentified Audience - evening. I want to ask you, on this map we have open space that runs from Mudd Pond all the way down to Grand View. Then Grand View all of a sudden becomes private property all of the way to the water. And also down here at Green Acres, it seems that these people from Orient By The Sea. People who own waterfront today, right now, have to provide water rights. Under don't want you to define it, Mr. Turner ought to be here. this open space, I and I don't want to He's the man who should be answering the questions. We paid seventy thousand, Mr. Supervisor, and we should have that man up there answering these questions. There's a hell of, excuse me, a lot of acres involved here taken away from people who paid top dollar for that land. I think i said before that the designation, because I asked Paula Gilbert and Stu Turner, the designation on these maps for open space where you see it near the Sound, or on the Bay, is for wetlands, if it denotes wetlands, bluffs, dunes ..... I know exactly where that is. It's where Mr. Reese is developing. 57 Ruth Oliva - Unidentified Audience - Joe Townsend Unidentified Audience Ruth Oliva - Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oliva - Yes, that's Grand View. That's right. Right next door is the same type of ... and then we come back to open space again. With three major developments where you have a lot of pressure from the public, the developers, sure, they're going to speak up, but what about the private individual owner who bought this property. I know a gentleman right here who paid over two hundred thousand dollars to spring for a house on the Sound, and he probably doesn't even know that - what you're trying to do. That's light residential development. Forget it. Then it should be you misled the lady that lives out because then it should include Mr. think in Orient Point, Reese's property. That's a good question. I think you ...... drive him out of town, the farmer ...... there are very few organizations where contemporaries who try to make a living, try to make it Good for our children Basically they explained to me that when they did designate that it was a fragile area. If you have another question ..... 5~ Unidentified Audience - Ruth Oliva Unidentified Audience Jean Tiedke Unidentified Audience - Unidentified Audience - I have no complaint with you - i want Mr. Turner here to answer the questions, unless he has somebody Then please write a letter saying that to Mr. Raynor. ........... I think there are a lot of people here who don't have the definition, like we said at the first meeting at the Supervisor's office. I think that of what exactly Could we have your name please? Edward Jazini. Doesn't the TDR encourage growth? It seems to me that preserving farmland, the way to do it would be with a trust not with a TDR that actually encourages more growth, it encourages sub-divisions, it encourages higher taxes, it encourages development of things like this water system, I mean, that's going to be an incredible upheaval. And also, is the ferry company a Connecticut corporation or a New York State corporation? Why is it that we are supporting a Connecticut corporation? What does the Town have to gain, particularly with Orient and East 59 Joe Townsend - Unidentified Audience - Joe Townsend - Connie Terry - Marion with increased traffic on the Main Road? it doesn't benefit us ............. coming down that road. Orient and East Marion ......... is nothing but a direct road to get to Greenport and on ~o the Expressway ............ And why is it that we have no control over the size of the ferry, that's the only leverage i would think we have, is at the ferry ramp. Why doesn't the Town do something about this, as far as benefiting the citizens, instead of a Connecticut corporation? As I said, as far as I know there has been no formal vote on that loan. The, you know, there hasn't been - not completed, we haven't had a chance explained to us who would apply for the loan, but we have not formalized any loan. ......... Albany, Perry Duryea was your representative up there. You know him, Joe. He Gives everything to Montauk, I thought nothing came here. May i add a comment to that? The increase of the ferry traffic and the increase of the size of the ferry, I believe that a member of the Town Board was the one who promoted it, because I had several discussions about that with the Board, with a member of the Board. 60 Joe (End Townsend of Side There were two of us on the Long Island Ferry Commission. Frank Murphy, the Supervisor, and I was on it. At that point they were trying to determine how fast to promote the service. 2) 61 (Side No. 3) Unidentified Audience That's where that lay. Couldn't the Town ask for some of the taxes on that - a dollar car for the use of Southold... Joe Townsend I doubt it~ What the Town can do, if you are very concerned about this, and it is a problem, and I recognize it is a problem - the Town can write our objections to the Interstate Commerce Commission, we can write to the State of New York and ask them to limit the size of the ferries, and to register a complaint. Another person you might contact that Unidentified Audience - would have influence in that area is Joe Sawicki who is our Assemblyman, and Ken LeValle who is our State Senator. They are both very involved in it, and that's your avenues there. The Town really hasn't got much to do with the traffic on Route 25 or the ..... we can't even get speed limits changed in a very fast manner. It took us several years to get the changes that were recently done in East Marion. Yes. This is the last question, if that's all right. If you were a member of the Commission as is Mr. Murphy over there what is the projected growth of that ferry terminal? How many cars do you expect to 62 Joe Townsend - be coming thousand? You should have an area. up and down the road - forty or fifty folks were on the commission, you idea what the growth is for this That was three years ago. But t can tell you maybe Frank can tell you about the projected growth ..... I can remember seeing the traffic studies that were done. The, I can't remember the volume, it was approximately double, if !'m, what they thought they could it's probably that already. that was a very low estimate not mistaken ..... carry back then. And Back then I thought of what probably would happen. But there is a problem that exists. People do have to get from Long Island to Connecticut. There is never going to be a bridge, and you won't find too many new ferry terminals because of the reaction that we are experiencing right now. People just do not want to see ferry terminals for environmental reasons, and for social reasons, they do not want to see ferry terminals. So we're going to have to live with a ferry terminal, because we're not going to be able to impose them on any other community. We can try to limit the size of it, and i will be happy to take up that matter, but we're going to have to live with the ferry there, i also fought the ferry in Greenport, if you recall, because I felt it would ruin Greenport to have it 63 Ruth Olive - Joe Townsend - Frank Murphy - come in the middle of it, Greenport. if he would like to Frank is here, Frank would like to say Thank you for the other just a couple of words. issue. Thank you Joe. Just to address I don't want to stay on it long. you want, you are welcome to come in tomorrow or any day, and I will make the projections that will show. The the ferry question, Any figures that to the office you a copy of big concern last year, last summer, Bill Pell and myself met with Commissioner Larocca, head of the DOT, Department of Transportation, in New York, and we got concerned. One of the big problems was the heavy traffic, the increased traffic, what could be done to eliminate the bother to the people out here. One of the suggestions that came out of it, and you can be assured, we were assured by the Commissioner of the Department of Transportation that Route 25 will not be any taking of land. That means that, unless maybe just to straighten out a real bad curve, that that's about the only reason any land would be taken. The only thing that will be done, and it's planned for in that new bond issue that everybody disapproved, and will be the improvement to the road shoulders and resurfacinq. It will not increase the speed, it will just make it much more 64 Unidentified Audience - Frank Murphy - quiet, and much more safer for the people through the drainage and that. One of the other things we tried to get, and it's going to go with the cooperation of the Suffolk County DPW - Route 48, which is like bypass, dual highway down there. The same thing - where it is not four lanes this will not be widened any further, it will be just safety, so that you can have a turning lane in it, you will have decent shoulders to ride on, a lot safer, no more land taking no more widening of the road as it is going through Cutchogue and Mattituck. Does that mean that this road drawn on the map down to Manhasset really is invalid. I believe so, yes. It's just something that Raymond, Parish ..... and we have the assurance, and one of the reasons, we did not want the increased truck traffic to be going through the Village of Greenport, Southold, Cutchogue, and Mattituck, and to bypass them. I would like to thank the League of Women Voters, and the Town The people alive. It the North Fork Environmental Council, Board for bringing this meeting about. are really finally starting to come was very disheartening and very upsetting for the Town Board, that the lack of input that these planners were receiving from the peoplel are coming around, everybody is letting their You 65 feelings be known, and this is the only way these people are going to do a good job. They can only work from the information that we give them. When we tell them we don't want something, .that tells them how they are going to design it. Bu~, unfortunately, they didn't get out to people properly, they didn't get everybody's feelings, and it was really quite a concern of the Town Board, and various people followed this. I'm glad to see that people are coming alive - we are getting input. These people did want to come, they would come, but they were talking about four or five thousand dollars extra money. We felt that the League could do as good or better job to collect the feelings of the people. Meetings like this there is going to be one in each hamlet - to collect the feelings of the people and bring it to these people. And they are scheduled, according to their contract, they have to have the zoning meetings in each hamlet. This will be done, probably, within the next four or five months. So again, thank you all. Thank you for coming out, and ! appreciate it. 66