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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK:
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
October 21, 2010
9:32 a.m.
Board Members Present:
LESLIE tQkNES WEISMAN - Chairperson/Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member - start to 3:16 p.m.
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
ABSENT: GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
VICKI TOTH - Secretary
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Nancy Conlon #6419
Edward Latham #6421
Benali, LLC #6422
William Adams #6424
Elizabeth Lyons #6423
Carrie Tintle #6428
Mark and Sharon Melnick #6426
McNamara Family Trust,
Harriet McNamara #6393
Anthony S. Campo #6411
Richard and Joan Savarese #6415
John and Daniella Venetis #6396
241-248,
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3-59
60-92
93-156
157-173
174-203
204-210
211-219
220-226
227-240
303-326
249-301
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
EARING #6419 - Nancy Conlon
MEMBER HORNING:
"Applicant requests a Special Exception
under Article III, Section 280-13B(13). The
applicant is the owner requesting
authorization to establish an Accessory
Apartment in an accessory structure, Located
at: 310 Huntington Blvd., Peconic, NY.
SCTM#1000-67-4-8."
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf of
Nancy Conlon. I have Nancy Conlon here. I
also have Anita Busby, I can't read my own
writing, who is a neighbor in support.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ms. Moore, we have
a letter from Code Enforcement regarding this
application, which we just received yesterday.
So I'm assuming you have not --
MRS. MOORE: No, I haven't.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we have a copy
here for you so that you can address this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
letter. I'd like to read this into the record
and then give you an opportunity to respond to
this letter and to present your application.
This is from Damon Rallis who's the
Zoning Inspector and: "Per your request, I
have investigated the history of the above
referenced property in an attempt to answer
specifically the question of whether the
accessory building in question had a valid
certificate of occupancy prior to January 1,
2008 and whether or not it was eligible for a
certificate of occupancy prior to that date.
My research revealed the following: There
have been no pre-existing certificates of
occupancy issued for this property.
~On March 16, 2006, a building permit
#31842Z was issued for the construction of a
new single family dwelling on the property.
Around the same time, a Notice of Disapproval
was issued for the accessory building, applied
for as a pool house and determined by the
building department to be 'living quarters'.
~The building permit reads specifically,
~Construction of a new single family dwelling-
modular, with garage under, front porch and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
rear deck, subject to ZBA variance for
accessory.'
~Following all inspections related to the
construction of the new dwelling, the building
department sent a notice to the applicant
expressing the fact that no certificate of
occupancy would be issued for the house until
the accessory structure has been legalized.
To date, it has not been legalized and the
house has not been issued a certificate of
occupancy.
~Therefore:
- The accessory structure has no
certificate of occupancy, nor has it ever had
one.
- The house has no certificate of
occupancy, nor has it ever had one.
- Neither building was eligible for a
certificate of occupancy prior to January 1,
2008 nor has it ever been eligible."
The reason for this letter is because
there is no Special Exception permit standard,
and those are rather different than area
variance standards, where we can interpret the
Code and grant relief. With Special Exception
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
standards, either the applicant or the
application conforms to the standards or they
do not. So we are here to see whether or not
it was possible for this application to
conform.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So a certificate of
occupancy on or before January 1, 2008 or
eligibility for such --
MRS. MOORE: Right, as an accessory
structure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- as an accessory
structure.
MRS. MOORE: Not whether or not it was a
dwelling or not a dwelling, the issue is
whether or not the building was there prior to
January 2008, correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: That is my
understanding.
MRS. MOORE: Good. All right, may I
proceed?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. I'm glad
that this issue comes up first because I'll
address it first. We have been in the process
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
of trying to retain this building for what it
really needs to be used for, which is the
accessory apartment. Mrs. Conlon has needed
that going back to 2002 because she purchased
the property in 2002. At that time, and I'll
give you an original photograph plus a
photocopy, which includes some of my notes, if
you don't mind, I have my note on this, but
you can see the original (inaudible) 2002
here's my notes here.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Everyone has a
copy of this?
MRS. MOORE: They will in a moment.
When Mrs. Conlon purchased this property
in 2002 at that time this structure, this
accessory structure was present. You can see
for yourself if you look at the photographs in
the file of the current what the house looks
like or what the structure looks like today.
The only difference between what it looked
like in 2002, the seller of the property, Mr.
Huntington at the time, was in the process of
renovating the structure and ran out of money.
He was renovating that structure -- do I have
the right owner? Hildreth, excuse me.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Hildreth.
There was a foundation for a house that
was under construction as well because at some
point in time, let me look at my notes, that
original house -- there were two structures
here. One was the accessory structure that we
have before you today, which at the time was a
place that was occupied as a dwelling, plus it
was being occupied as an art studio for
Pemberton who was a very famous local artist
and I have further documentation on that as
well, but I'll go through the history here.
So that structure was present.
At the same time that the front house had
burned down and the seller at the time ran out
of money. You can see that a foundation was
started, but didn't go very far. So Mrs.
Conlon purchased this and she continued to
live in the accessory structure until such
time as she had enough money that she could
apply to rebuild the front house.
So at this point the front house is
built. The issue is whether or not the
accessory building could have gotten a CO for
an accessory building. You can see from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
photograph that when she purchased in 2002 it
was there. It was the same structure if you
had a chance to go inside you can see for
yourself that it hasn't changed very much on
the inside. On the outside what she did is
made the structure safer -- Do you need
something Mr. Horning?
MEMBER HORNING: I'm looking for the date
on the photograph.
MRS. MOORE: She had a little sticky,
it's from the date of her purchase and I can
have her swear on the record that -- when she
took the photograph because she's the one who
took the photograph.
So in any case, in 2002 right off the bat
that structure was there. So whether or not
it would have been eligible for a CO, it
certainly would have been eligible for a CO at
that time. The difficulty here has always
been the use of the structure, not the fact
that the structure existed. The use here for
all this period of time we've been trying to
come up with ways to preserve it under the
proper zoning rules and until today, or until
the Code just recently got changed to allow
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
for living space in accessory structure, it
was a really difficult burden for her to get
approval to make that structure -- to continue
that structure as a living space. It was
certainly a single-family dwelling at the time
prior to the construction of the front house,
but once the front house was built, now the
Zoning Code says prior to our change, that you
couldn't have living space in an accessory
building, it would have been considered a
second dwelling. We wrested with that for all
this period of time, we tried to come up with
different scenarios.
I have about four different plans in my
file. We started a couple of different
proceedings. One she was have it as a pool
house and then realized she couldn't afford
the pool. We also considered possibly
connecting cause prior to the change in the
Code the only way you could retain living
space an accessory structure was to connect
the structure. I had drawings done. We were
ready to file the application to connect the
structure and that's when the Code changed.
Thank Goodness, because really what she needs
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
is the space for her family.
She has three adult children in various
stages of graduate school. They're all living
at home as the economy has caused this for
many people. She is one of them. So she
continues to work. She is a professor, but
she also has the three children that are going
through educational process, but they're
adults and they theoretically should be out
living on their own, they need the financial
assistance and this is certainly a beautiful
structure that she has wanted to retain.
So I disagree with Mr. Rallis'
conclusion. I think that he confuses the use
of the structure versus the existence of the
structure because it would certainly have been
eligible for a pre-CO. The issue was always,
in my mind, coming -- the Building Department
would not give me a pre-CO without coming to
you and proving it. We have affidavits, which
I included in the file, from neighbors that
had lived there since the 50s who remembered
having their milk delivered. That structure
was there. It doesn't -- even a non-historian
or someone who hasn't been out here their
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
whole life could see from just the
architectural style could see from just the
architectural style and going in the building
that it's not a new structure.
So I believe that we've addressed that
both in affidavits that are in your file with
respect to the -- when that structure was, in
fact, there. It was being used as a dwelling
and, secondly, I have the photograph and I'll
have -- if you would like, I'll have Mrs.
Conlon swear to the fact that that was a
photograph taken in 2002.
I also have for your information, the
fact that this structure has cultural
significance in this town because we have Mr.
Pemberton who has become -- he was always a
highly respected artist, he has since passed
away, and is part of our cultural heritage
here. He is very well known for his art work
and posters that he's created and we've gotten
from local newspaper articles that had been
written including some of the artwork that he
had produced for the Village of Greenport,
beautiful posters and the rest.
So I will also distribute that for your
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information. The first one is a photograph of
his artwork, which is the cover page of
Peconic Bay Shopper, that's a June 2010
addition. Here's an article from the Suffolk
Times of August 16, 2001 and this is UA Life
Taking on Color" and it has a photograph of
Mr. Pemberton and his artwork. Here is the
Secret of the Signs, which was another article
in the Suffolk Times, I'm sorry, October 30,
2001. Mrs. Conlon was kind enough to do all
this research. It's good to have a
(inaudible) client.
Okay, in the articles you will notice
that his artwork is still displayed in San
Simeon today. So if you want to go see it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I do want to
point out that our Board does not have
landmark jurisdiction.
MRS. MOORE: No, I understand.
Absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is about an
accessory apartment meeting the Special
Exception standards.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I'd like to ask
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you, these calculations in the file --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- who did those?
MRS. MOORE: The drawings were prepared
by Angel Chorno, architect, who you know.
They're stamped. What I did is I -- rather
than have, you can correct it, but these are
my calculations taken from the floor plans.
So I took the floor plans and provided the
square footages for your convenience.
Certainly you can -- again, it's for your
convenience. I would refer back to the floor
plans for the actual measurements and the Code
is somewhat loose with respect to how you
measure the living space. I don't know if the
living space is be measured from wall to wall
or the living space to most of us would be
habitable space and sometimes you'd cut out --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's the livable
floor area.
MRS. MOORE: Livable floor area.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's calculated by
removing the stair and the bathroom, which is
correct.
MRS. MOORE: Good. Good.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So what you're
saying here is the first floor has 366 square
feet of livable floor area and the second
276.4 square feet of livable floor
floor has
area.
MRS.
MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. You are
aware that the Special Exception standards
require only one floor?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If that is the case
then neither the first floor or the second
floor on its own has the minimum required 450
square feet of livable floor area to meet the
standards of the smallest size accessory
apartment a Special Exception permit would
permit.
MRS. MOORE: Well, my --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The maximum is 750
and the minimum is 450.
MRS. MOORE: I understand. My
understanding of the provisions of this Code
is that when the Town Board was legislating
they wanted to see ideally all the space on
one floor, but the reality is that there will
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
be structures, because you're occupying
existing structures, there may be a need on a
case by case basis to grant a variance of the
placement of the living space such as in this
case where you have an existing structure that
has been already designed and used just as
it's being shown with a living space within
the two floors.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But you do
understand, and the reason that I stated at
the outset of this hearing, that unlike area
variances where we can interpret the Code and
we can grant relief from the standard set by
the Code, with the Special Exception permit we
do not do that. We must either meet the
standards, we can condition them and we do
often, but we meet the Special Exception
standards or we don't.
MRS. MOORE: I'm not -- I would
professionally disagree with that analysis in
that there -- it depends on how the Board
chooses to interpret these as conditions or as
conditions which can be modified. A Special
Exception may have different -- if it says you
can't have more than one family, okay, that is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
a specific condition you would not be able to
modify, but the condition that is how the
floor living ratio should be allocated, I
believe that that provision in the Code is one
that you could modify, you could adjust.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have not -- well
MRS. MOORE: I mean that's a legal
opinion that I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the five years
I've been on this Board I have not seen a
Special Exception standard variance.
Conditions are usually if it's on the second
floor like a B&B Special Exception we'll
condition it with a ladder, drop-down ladder,
or condition it by saying you can't back out
onto the street.
MRS. MOORE: I understand what you --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Those are not
Special Exception standards --
MEMBER HORNING: Which are criteria, not
conditions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- which are
criteria for whether or not you meet the
requirements of the permit.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: It is, again, it is whether
or not it is, as you say it, criteria
condition of the Special Exception or it is
for example a Special Exception might say you
have to have the structure be set back at 100
feet from the property line. I'm thinking a
winery or -- a use that might be a Special
Exception use or -- and in that instance you
are permitted to grant a variance from that
requirement. If you'd like a memorandum of
law I can put one together for you. I think I
will -- I understand you haven't done it
before in your time, but that's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Town Board made
its standards very explicit. Now, there are
options available now with accessory
apartments in principle dwellings that are as
of right.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: However, even if
you were to entertain attaching, moving and
attaching that building, you would have to
make sure that, 1) the expanded foundation did
not exceed 25 percent of the existing
principle dwelling and (2) that the dwelling
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
had a certificate of occupancy on or before
January 1, 2004.
MRS. MOORE:
think that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
one.
in this
MRS. MOORE:
instance,
Or eligible for one. I
Or eligible for
I think the issue has been,
we have a house --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The house was built
in --
MRS. MOORE: -- that was --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- 2006.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not 2004.
MRS. MOORE: But as far as connecting it
to make it not necessarily -- if it's all the
same family to connect it is that it's all one
family and it's just living space that's
connected as a suite or so on for the family.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You'd have to
remove the second kitchen or you would have to
apply for a two-family dwelling.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. I mean we would have
to do modifications, but the whole purpose of
coming in for this application, I thought, was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
to bring a structure that has -- it's clearly
been there for a very long time and the reason
I know you don't -- you're not a cultural
historical board, but I think it's important
to recognize that the structure has value to
the community. It has been used.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No one is
suggesting it be torn down.
MRS. MOORE: Well, but that's the,
the options you give a property
unfortunately,
owner is
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well --
MRS. MOORE: -- if you can't use it for
anything what's -- what do you keep it for?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the 2000 survey
showed the structure as a concrete block
garage. The 2003 survey, this is all in our
file --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- notes a concrete
block garage, but now shows a second story
wood porch with no permits. On 10/4/10 a memo
was received from your office sent to the
Health Department dated 9/29/10 along with a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
survey dated 9/30/10 showing the structure as
a two-story building pool house.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Assessor's
photos from 2003 and '04 show the garage under
construction, again no permits.
MRS. MOORE: You've seen the photograph
in 2002, that's when it was -- when the
Assessor's found it, I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It continued to be
in 2003 and 4 it was still under construction.
MRS. MOORE: This, well, to the extent
that you see it as it is, I guess the
Assessor's Office was considering it under
construction, but it was there. It wasn't
built, it was getting new shingling and the
front doors were replaced.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nothing was done on
the interior?
MRS. MOORE: She upgraded -- well,
because it was her home at that point. It
became her residence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So it had to have proper
electrical -- well, certain the electrical was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
under code at the time so she did make that
safe.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Stairs.
MRS. MOORE: The stairs I think --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, but all that
work needed to have been done with permits.
MRS. MOORE: We acknowledge that that --
the reason we are here is to clean up what has
been a continuing problem which is what can we
legally -- what does the Zoning Code allow us
to do with this structure. It took until
current Code today to give us at least the
opportunity to come before the Board to deal
with it and why we're here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that is why
we're hearing the application despite the fact
that it did not meet the standards of the
Special Exception.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that's why we're
permitting this hearing today.
MRS. MOORE: I understand and that is why
I would say to you that as far as the living
space is concerned we considered possibly
placing all the living space on the second
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
floor, which would then push our -- we had a
choice. Either make the -- bring the kitchen
upstairs or bring the bathroom downstairs
cause right now the bathroom is on the second
floor, the kitchen is on the first floor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So in order to make it all
conforming on one floor, we would have to
allocate the space. Now the space that we've
allocated that is presently living space
today, I give you the square footages, is as
it is today. If I have to allocate space
differently because as you say, well, we'll
give it to you but only if it's on one floor
because we don't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You won't meet the
minimum standard of 450 square feet of livable
floor area using just one floor, according to
your own calculations.
MRS. MOORE: Well, but remember the
calculations I'm using are taking out certain
areas that we could convert to living space.
So we would have, for example, the second
floor --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, the numbers
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
aren't work.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know because I did
very basic numbers when I did --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, they won't
work.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I've looked at the
architectural drawings and so on. On one
floor you're not get 450 square feet of
livable floor area with both a bathroom and a
kitchen and even one bedroom of living space.
You just aren't have it.
MRS. MOORE: By removing, well, I have 24
by 22; what's that? 600 no -- I'm sorry, I'm
terrible with math here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's 528.
MRS. MOORE: 24 by 22 I have here cause
I'm just -- I'm measuring the exterior walls.
So if I took a laundry area that's presently
there and I converted it to part of the living
space and the bathroom stays as the bathroom
is, I think that we could come up with the
living space that we need. I don't think it's
the right answer here because we have what has
historically been a second dwelling or
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
historically been a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't have any
legal right to a second dwelling on that
property whether it's historic or not there's
no pre-CO on this --
MRS. MOORE: Well, but if it was -- pre-
CO --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- as a second
dwelling.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. The pre-CO is
only what the Building Department determines
is evidence of. There are structures out
there that have no pre-COs, it's just there's
no documentation other than what could be
proven through affidavits and by Zoning Board
action that would prove that, in fact, we have
a pre-existing second dwelling.
We had that all along, certainly until
the front house burned up. There was no
intention to abolish the second dwelling. It
was the reality of having the timeframe of
rebuilding the second house. So I think we
could establish that this could have qualified
or could still be -- could have qualified as a
second dwelling and has the intention of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
owner continued to be a second dwelling, but
that to me was a much more cumbersome
application than to come before the Board
under the new Code which allows the accessory
structure to be used as living space. Again,
it's living space for the family only.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: That is required by
the Special Exception.
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely and she has --
actually, that's what she wants. To the
extent that under the affordable -- somebody
who qualifies under affordable could certainly
be here down the line when the kids finally
economically can move out of the house and
move on, that's wonderful. She's prepared to
keep under the affordable housing program.
It's a very cute structure. She's lived there
very comfortably in the past. It could be a
wonderful structure for somebody to continue
to live comfortably, and, again, I think that
the Special Exception law as it's written
provides for flexibility on a case by case
basis to allocate the space within two
structures.
I think I've proven that the structure
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
was in existence prior to that 2008 date. The
structure was not built for the purposes of
this law. It's been there for a very long
time.
MEMBER HORNING: Pat, why didn't the
applicant apply for a CO?
MRS. MOORE: We wanted to, the Building
Department didn't want us -- they -- the
instructions I kept getting were, we're not
give you the pre-CO for the living space that
you have unless you go to the Zoning Board of
Appeals. Okay, so my client's option was
always come to the ZBA and get the
grandfathering of this structure as a pre-
existing dwelling. That was the only option
that the Building Department was ever giving
me. So we hemmed and hawed on coming in
because again I have the affidavits that I had
from -- that are part of this file now. So I
think I could have come in there, but it was
so difficult at the time and the Board was,
for the most part, creating -- was not
favoring creating second dwellings, even if
they could be determined to be pre-existing
nonconforming structure, I had several
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Suffolk,
Services
MRS.
that.
applications in the 25 years that I've been
around. I've had a couple of applications
like that and it's been very difficult and
I've had Boards that I thought I had all the
proof I needed and then the Board would just
say, no, no, we're not let you -- we're not
acknowledge that you can in that instance
renovate it to make it expand or whatever.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A huge part of the
dilemma is a letter from the County of
Steve Levy, Department of Health
MOORE: Oh, I have an answer for
that
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- September 24tn
is a letter that was written to you --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
actually.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
28
I presume you've
received it. This was from Department of
Health saying, KAn inspection on or about
December 23rd,'' this is in answer to your
question, George, "by a representative of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
department reveals that occupancy of a house
and an illegal apartment and use of a sewage
disposal system at the above referenced
facility has begun without benefit of a proper
approval permits from this department. This a
violation of", blah, blah, blah, ~which
prohibits the occupancy of any building unless
department approval has been obtained for the
existing or proposed water supply and sewage
disposal facilities. Based on information
from the Town it also appears that the total
bedroom count of these two structures exceeds
the capacity of the existing sanitary system.
Please resubmit a site plan survey proposing
to upgrade the sanitary system to accommodate
5 bedrooms."
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was the
problem.
MRS. MOORE: Well, no it wasn't a
problem, honestly. That is all a process that
we would have to go through --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- once we got the approval.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
We have an existing sanitary system. It is
connected, it's always been connected. When
she built -- When Mrs. Conlon built the house,
she built it for a certain number of -- the
sanitary system was built for a certain number
of bedrooms just for cost purposes. The
Health Department said there's no -- and I'll
speak as an officer of the court -- I spoke
directly to the gentleman who wrote that
letter, I forget, I'm sorry, who was that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: John Guis --
MRS. MOORE: John Guis -- yeah, that guy.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That guy.
MRS. MOORE: I spoke with him directly
and I said what's the problem. He said
there's no problem, all you need to do is
submit the survey that shows the existing
sanitary system with an expansion pool. The
existing septic tank that's there is a 1000
gallon system. It would need to be replaced
with a 1500 gallon system, the septic tank
itself, and I said that's not a problem, but
which comes first? You know, the chicken or
the egg. Do we wait to get the approval
because that requirement is based on it being
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
bedrooms. If the Board says, well, I don't
care what you've shown us, we're not grant
this, now I don't have bedrooms there, I don't
have living space so my sanitary system
doesn't have to be modified.
So I would say the most of your
applications for accessory apartments once
it's authorized by the Board it will end up
going back to the Health Department to either
certify that the existing system is adequate
or upgrading the system to accommodate the
number of bedrooms. That's the standard
procedure and that's what the Building
Department would require of us prior to
getting a CO for this as an accessory
apartment and prior to issuance of occupancy
permits. I think the Code already says that
you should comply with Health Department.
So we had, in order to avoid any issues
of, you know, I acted immediately when I got
that letter. I thought it was premature, but
that's fine. I did not want to create an
issue. I sent you a copy of what I submitted
to Mr. DiGuiseppe, which was the surveyor's
design of the sanitary -- modification to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
existing sanitary system that would be
compliant with the County law. So he said no
problem, send me the survey, I'll stamp it
approved and I'll send it back to you and when
you're ready we go through the process of
upgrading the sanitary system.
So our problem is timing, which is -- I
know you're rushed, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our problem is
timing, too.
MRS. MOORE: Well, you asked me a
question, I have to answer it fully.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want you to have
every opportunity to be heard.
MRS. MOORE: I know. Well, are you
satisfied that I've given you a full answer on
that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just quickly for
clarity purposes, Pat, I know that you believe
that you've provided enough proof to show that
this was a pre-existing second dwelling. The
Board has not acknowledged that. So it's just
a difference of opinion. I don't see anybody
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
on the record or I haven't heard anybody
concede that, so -- they didn't respond when
you said that, which is why I wanted to
clarify it for the record.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I would be happy to
provide you with additional, more thorough
affidavits from the neighbors than I've
already provided. I didn't prepare the
affidavits that talk about the fact that the
milk delivery was there and there was somebody
living there and, you know, so on and so
forth. I can provide a much more thorough
affidavit from the neighbors that were living
there, at the time, that know the property,
know the activities on this property and I can
provide you additional proof.
I think that the Code for my purposes for
this accessory apartment application had to
prove that the structure was there prior to a
certain date, which I think I've proven to you
that that is the case. Now, whether or not
you want me to give you the proof of the
occupancy of the structure as it is today for
purposes if you wish so you don't address the
issue of whether or not you need to grant a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
variance for the living space, it was already
living space as it's allocated today, I'd be
happy to do that. That would be the relevant
issue I thought the law itself allows you to
create that deviation from the Code all on one
living space, but if you feel it's not in your
opinion, I will give you more evidence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Would you agree that
this accessory apartment and accessory
structure is in a new territory of decision
making?
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely. Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Now, if a
standard set by the town law requires a CO or
a pre-CO --
MRS. MOORE: Or eligible for a pre-CO --
MEMBER HORNING: -- or eligible for --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. That means that you
don't have to have it in hand, just proof that
it existed.
MEMBER HORNING: And requires a standard
of x-amount of square foot on one floor --
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER HORNING: -- and the Board decides
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
we're ignore those standards and waive them
for the first applicant that we have to deal
with, doesn't it seemingly set up some sort of
a precedent when the standards are thrown out?
MRS. MOORE: Honestly, I think that it
would be a good precedent to set only because
I have a lot of -- there are -- I have seen,
not all of them are be before you, only those
that, you know, I have in hand, some of them
can meet the Code of all in one living space
no problem whatsoever. Others, because of the
way the space has been allocated, may have a
laundry room on the first floor that's shared
and living space on --
MEMBER HORNING: A final question then.
Why, when the Town was considering this stuff
very recently --
MRS. MOORE: Uh-huh, right.
MEMBER HORNING: -- did not people from
the community go to them and say, hey look,
this is arbitrary and capricious or whatever,
don't build this into the law; why didn't they
do that?
MRS. MOORE: Personally, I tried. Okay,
beyond me, I don't know that anybody --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Did you give testimony
and --
MRS. MOORE: It's in the public hearing,
yeah. In the public hearing I went to the
Supervisor and the Supervisor who was the only
one who spoke said, "Well, I think we're
giving you enough." So --
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- kind of take it and leave
it t!rpe of attitude and --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat. Pat, that's
really not relevant here.
MEMBER HORNING: I asked the question.
MRS. MOORE: You asked me.
MEMBER MORNING: All right, I'm finished.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You spoke at the
hearing and you made your case --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- and the Town
Board voted on legislation. If you disagree
with what the legislation says, you think
there's a problem with it, you have a remedy.
you can go to court and challenge the validity
of the legislation.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Or -- well, you can go back
and ask the Board to modify it, but I don't --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- think they've had enough
applications. I think it's something where,
again, I think that the law of a Special
Exception allows variances from the condition
depending on what that condition is.
MEMBER HORNING: It's not a condition.
It's a standard, it's a criteria. It's
different than a condition.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The Board has
spoken on that issue, Pat.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You've told them
what your opinion is.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: They've told you
what their opinion is and you disagree.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's continue.
Let's see if there are other board members
that have questions and I want to see who in
the audience would like to --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just a question.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't know if
it's covered adequately in the record, but
this whole issue of eligibility for a CO on or
before 2008 is really -- to me there are still
some questions that haven't been answered.
MRS. MOORE: I guess clarify for me what
is your reading of the code that I have to
prove. The language says --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It says eligible or
have a valid CO on or before -- what is it?
MRS. MOORE: January 1, 2008 --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- 2008 and, again,
Mrs. Moore has presented evidence that this
structure was in existence in 2002, she gave
you a picture.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And then she gave
you some affidavits about people who have
testified that the building was there
previously. Now, again she has to establish
that it was built prior to 1957, the date that
the Zoning Code was enacted, and I don't know
if she's done that to your satisfaction and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
don't know if it's clear in the record, but
you may want to think about that.
MRS. MOORE: But is a pre-CO --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If you had a pre-
CO, you'd provide it to us.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. But is a pre-CO
prior to zoning --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Yes.
law?
MRS. MOORE: -- or a pre-CO prior to the
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well --
MRS. MOORE: That's the whole issue --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- then you have to
show -- and obviously you couldn't show it to
the Building Department or you would have had
a pre-CO in hand today.
MRS. MOORE: No, I couldn't get -- no,
no. Remember my statements. I could prove to
the Building Department that that structure
was there and from the town property cards
themselves when they started keeping records
and these were two separate lots at the time,
there is a photograph of the structure and the
original house that was there --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, just because
(inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: -- from the 60s -- what?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- Tax Assessor's
Office doesn't mean that it was a legal
structure. You do know that. I mean if there
was a structure on the property that was built
illegally and the Tax Assessor goes out there,
they're assess you for it whether or not it's
a legal structure.
over town.
MRS. MOORE:
I mean I've seen that all
I think I need clarification
on what you want from me --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, again, you
can show --
MRS. MOORE: -- because a pre-CO --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- that the
building was eligible for certificate of
occupancy or that it had a certificate of
occupancy on or before June 1st of 2008.
MEMBER HORNING: AS an accessory building
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: As an accessory
building --
MEMBER HORNING: -- a single-family
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
dwelling? I mean --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- or --
MRS. MOORE: I mean I don't think that's
the point. What are you asking of me? If you
want a pre -- if you want proof that the
structure was built there prior to zoning,
I'll give you more affidavits and we'll keep
looking for photographs or whatever to prove
that it was there prior to zoning. Based on
affidavits --
Were you around at that time in the 50s?
No? Okay, I know who -- yeah, we have a
couple of people that are just elderly and we
don't, you know, it's tough for them to get
here.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
the Board, you don't have
Pat.
MRS. MOORE: No, no,
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
Board.
MRS.
Well, it's up to
to prove it to me,
no.
It's up to the
the
MOORE: But if that's an issue, I
think the Board has -- I want to call it
judicial notice by virtue of the Town's own
records and as an architect the vintage of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
structure that it was definitely there prior
to zoning, okay, because there were two
dwellings there prior to zoning.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That's a very
general statement you've made, Pat, I mean
vintage of the structure to me doesn't really
mean much --
MRS. MOORE: All right, I'm sorry, the
architecture and the construction materials
that are there, it was not a --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The Board would
have had the opportunity -- did anybody go to
inspect?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
Yes, we did.
okay, do you agree
with that statement or -- I mean, I don't --
this is an important issue. I think it should
be fleshed out on the record and I'm be quiet
now because I don't -- I've pointed out the
issue.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a two-story
dwelling, which is what it is at the moment,
is extremely modernized on the interior. So
how, when it was done exactly, you know, it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
very clear that whatever bones may have been
there have been covered up because short of my
getting down on my hands and knees and
examining the foundation, which I did not do,
I thought it was a rather rude thing to do, I
did not go and check the furnace or the boiler
to see what date was on there, which I could
have done. We can go back and do that, but
the point is in very recent times that
structure --
MRS. MOORE:
yes.
Oh, it's been renovated,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- has been brought
from what was a block garage on a survey,
whether it was being used as a dwelling or
not, listed as a garage then it was listed as
a pool house --
MRS. MOORE: And the pool house is based
on an application we were
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
understand.
MRS. MOORE:
making.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
make --
Right, I
-- which we ended up not
I know.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The point is
there's a long history on this property.
MEMBER HORNING: I think we're missing
the potential use for it. I envision if I
went back in the past, just on my limited
knowledge, I envision a single-family dwelling
with an accessory building that some artist
was using as a studio.
MRS. MOORE: And had been living there,
That's the whole point, he was living
too.
there.
MEMBER HORNING:
the big house then?
dwelling?
MRS. MOORE:
were
Then who was living in
Uh, in the single-family
The Pemberton family. They
MEMBER MORNING: You mean he was living
there illegally all along?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: In the little studio,
the studio where he worked?
MRS. MOORE: Well, to the extent --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute.
MRS. MOORE: Can we do (inaudible)?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is getting --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
this is getting -- we're almost an hour on
this.
MRS. MOORE: I understand that, but let
me have -- I have a neighbor here to put on
the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm ask for
testimony from anyone in the audience who
would like to make it --
MRS. MOORE: Good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- okay?
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And then we'll see
if other board members have questions or
comments they would like --
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Also there are a
lot of other conditions here that you haven't
discussed, so I don't know --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: What conditions
would you like --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, what --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You don't have to
discuss then, but again there's a long list --
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) the
application for an accessory apartment, I mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
there's a lot of things here that this
particular application just doesn't meet.
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I mean I know
you've touched on two of them --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~2q: Jim, would you like
to pick up on this?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
parking we have parking,
please cause if it's
but I don't, you
know, beyond that I don't know what --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Again, I'm of the school
that when the Town Board makes a law, then
that's the law and we are not -- they're
giving us the power to grant a Special Permit,
then the permit is just to examine to ensure
that you meet their criteria for that permit.
That's how I look at a special permit. I mean
anybody in the Town can grant special permits,
the Zoning Board doesn't have that power
exclusively. It's actually granted by Town
Board.
Okay, so the Planning Board could do it.
Quite honestly, I've never wanted to have that
with the Zoning Board because it does tend to
confuse things. Now, I mean I'm looking at
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the application and right off the bat we're
looking at a minimum size and it has to be on
the first floor. Neither one of those two
meet the criteria there. So I can't
understand --
MRS. MOORE: Well, at present, as it is
allocated, as the space is allocated today, I
can't meet the square footage criteria,
minimum square footage --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No, no. Pat --
MRS. MOORE: -- but I could if I moved it
around.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Pat, Pat --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Pat, I'm talking about
pieces of paper you handed us --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- a request, an
asserting of your right to ask us, the Town,
for anything that you please. That's your
right to do that, but you're also asking us to
vary a condition --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Criteria.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- not a -- criteria of
a special permit
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: The allocation of space,
right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- okay, when you get a
permit you have to meet the criteria and,
honestly, I'm not willing to do that. Above
and beyond whether or not this is eligible to
have a CO or knowing the Pemberton family,
knowing how long they've been there, knowing
that there's more than one Rip Pemberton, the
whole family was called Rip. The fact that
the person that's in the Peconic Shopper is
famous; my father's featured there this month,
so I guess that makes him famous.
I think that all the other arguments just
don't -- are spurious. I don't see where we
have to in any way grant anything, pre-CO, CO,
or not. I mean I'm fairly convinced that that
particular building was probably there long
before zoning because I know that area. That
area is old.
MRS. MOORE: Very old, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, I mean it was
a dirt road as I can recall. I can recall a
dirt road, now I'm 57 years old. So I know
they've been modernized, they're mostly
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
smaller houses and some -- even this house is
probably bigger than it was originally. I
don't know, but I'm just saying that it
probably was.
You're coming to us asking for variances
on a special permit and, honestly, I'm not
going that way.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Especially not the first
one, I mean certainly not, and although the
Board has been guilty of doing that, I could
think of a couple of applications that we've
granted that, I'm not in this instance. I
think that we met long and hard, the resulting
law was the result of much compromise on both
sides and it's a dirty business.
If you went and reconfigured this, with
the 25 percent I think you could add, I'm not
an architect, not a builder, I don't know,
maybe you can get that on the first floor. I
don't know. I think you'd have other trouble.
You'd probably start running into lot coverage
problems. You know, I don't know what it
would be, but that's incumbent upon you to do.
MRS. MOORE: Well --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: You got your stuff
together.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You asked us
this.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean this should have
been a 15-minute discussion.
MRS. MOORE: I wish -- this is a very
unique application --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I --
MRS. MOORE: -- I wish it wasn't your
first one. I just needed to know, are you
willing to grant variances for the allocation
of space --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you made it
unique.
MRS. MOORE: -- if the answer is no --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You made it unique.
Honestly, after listening, I'm pretty sure
we're close to the end of this hearing, that
I've probably heard everything we're hear,
no, I'm -- this is a yes or no question.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I need a yes or no as
far as if the Board is not inclined to grant
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
variance, then I have to go back to the
drawing board, see if we can allocate space nu
such a way that we could accommodate all the
living space on one floor and, again, it would
just -- it would be a question of which is the
least expensive way to do it, kitchen up,
bathroom down. I mean, it's -- I know you're
an architect. I acknowledge your expertise,
but give us an opportunity to try to see if we
can allocate the minimum space. You know, I'm
disappointed that you're not willing to give
the adjustment.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We still have to
make a determination as to whether or not this
was as the Code, which I have right here, says
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- number 13, "One
accessory apartment in a lawfully existing
detached accessory garage, barn or storage
building."
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: ~Subject to the
following requirement." We have not yet
established that it was a lawfully existing --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Well, that's what I was --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- accessory
garage, barn or storage building.
MRS. MOORE: Well, storage building is a
generic term. The structure is a storage
building.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Listen.
MRS. MOORE:
Hold on. Hold on.
Yes. Yes?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Then just divide it.
They can come back with their proof. If you
don't think that that's the case, I happen to
think that lawfully because this thing had to
have existed well before we had zoning.
MRS. MOORE: Right, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I think that's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As a garage,
probably.
MRS. MOORE: Well at least at a minimum
a storage building.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Inaudible) law --
MRS. MOORE: Well give us a chance to
give you affidavits to that effect.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Excuse me. I believe
that this law is concerned with existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
structures.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, whether or not,
like she has a beautiful house in there now is
not relevant to the application in that what
we're worried about is that there is -- there
was a building there, something there that
they could turn into an apartment.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, all the other
stuff, electrical, drainage, sewage, all of
that stuff comes after we say --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you can have an
apartment in the building. So if it were a
brick building, cement block and they were
driving cars in it prior to 2002 and I can
probably say from my own experience that it is
more than likely that building was there
before zoning, I
had a CO of some
for an apartment
think that they could have
sort, not necessarily a CO
and I think that's where
we're getting confused here.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But again, to me it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the
other stuff.
MRS. MOORE:
with the other stuff. Let's see
accommodate the space.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's
And that's fine. I can deal
if we can
find out if
there are any other questions. Do we have any
other questions here for the moment? Ail
right, let's see who in the audience wants to
address this.
MS. BUSBY: Hi, Anita Busby and I live
right behind the Conlon property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name please for the record?
MS. BUSBY: B-U-S-B-Y.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. BUSBY: We purchased our property in
1992 and I had visited the people that live
there before that for a few years. That
building was always there. It was
cinderblock, it was very ugly. So when Nancy
moved in they resided it and made it very
lovely. To us it was an improvement in the
neighborhood.
I know that Mr. Pemberton had his shop in
there. He had a bathroom in there and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
believe a coal burning stove of some sort.
There was a stairs and, at some point, when I
asked the person, I mean of course this is
hearsay, but I asked who lives there and my
neighbor told me, the woman I bought the house
from, that his son lived there from time to
time. So I don't know if that adds anything
to this, but I hope that you would really
consider allowing this apartment to stand as
it is because it is very charming and it
certainly would meet a need for a family. Not
a big family, a husband and wife, or a woman
and a child or at this point Nancy's children,
but that's the kind of thing it's been in the
neighborhood.
It's always been there, now it looks
better than it ever looked. So it doesn't
really change the flavor of our dirt-road
community. There are all dirt roads there.
So I hope you will look on it more favorably.
I understand -- I did not know about all the
of the criteria with ground floor, upper floor
and all of those numbers, but that building
has been there and it seems a very good way to
use the building as an apartment.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Anyone
else? Please.
MR. BOOTH: Hello Board. My name is Ed
Booth. I own the property next door. I'm one
of the neighbors.
I'm not so delighted by this development.
I think that -- I'd just as soon not see the
number of neighbors next door double. I note
sewage problems, new amounts of effluent will
be around. I own the lot also right behind
the place where my house is and that would be
affected I think by the placement of the
sewage she has lined up. There are some wrong
things by the way about this plot plan I see.
There's already a cesspool some 38 feet in
that 100 feet or whatever in use next to the
from the edge of her property.
I wonder how many people have actually
lived there. I don't know what the number
would be restricted to. There is not a lot of
parking, otherwise I guess those cars wouldn't
be occasionally on the street. Let's see,
what else.
All right, that's basically it. I
thought, by the way, it was not permissible to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
have two dwellings on the same property. It
looks like this is that situation to me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) at the
moment, but they're attempting to do something
to take advantage --
MR. BOOTH: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- of a new code,
which does permit an apartment on one floor in
an accessory structure that has existed.
MR. BOOTH: I'm all for the ideas, it's
just that I didn't think it was happen next
door to me I guess. All right, that's all I
have to say.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you Mr.
Booth. Is there anyone else here would like
to comment?
MS. CONLON: I just want to clarify. I'm
Nancy Conlon and thank you for listening to
this.
When I bought the house my attorney was
Ernie Brewer and he said, he established
through my mortgage and title that the
building was pre-1957 so we could not get a CO
because it didn't need one at that point. So
that is in my title record and, at this point,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
having the kids home it is a benefit and I
thought that was the purpose of the Town's new
ruling to make housing affordable so our kids
would not leave the area so that they would be
able to work and live here and, unfortunately,
for my children cause they are back in school,
that's the good part, they cannot afford to
live anywhere else, at this point.
So that was really all that I wanted to
clear up. It's a great neighborhood. I agree
with Ms. Busby, I feel that I've enhanced the
neighborhood cause it was a sorry looking
building when I bought it and it did exist and
what Pat said I went to the neighborhood and
talked to the people who had lived there
previously and they're the ones who've given
me the stories about what was done with the
property beforehand. Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Nancy could you also put on
the record the number of cars that are
presently parked there?
MS. CONLON: Well, I have 5 kids -- I'm
sorry, I have 3 kids and my car and the boat.
So there's usually 5 cars there unless
somebody comes over or something and I do have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
enough parking cause I had a macadam driveway
so that we can fit 7, so everything is off the
street, which isn't really a street it's a
dirt road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. CONLON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else would like to address this application?
Are there any other questions from board
members?
I'm suggest that we close this hearing
subject to receipt of any additional
information within the next two weeks that
counsel would like to submit to this board
based upon testimony here.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there a second?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6421 - EDWARD LAT}{AM
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances from Article III
Code Section 280-14 (Bulk Schedule) based on
an application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's July 29, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed two lot
subdivision, Parcel 1 1) lot size less than
the code required 400,000 sq. ft. for two
uses, 2) side yard setback of less than the
code required 30 feet, 3) lot coverage of more
than the code required 5%. Parcel 2 1) lot
size less than the code required 200,000 sq.
ft., 2) lot width less than the code required
270 feet at; 31900 Main Rd., Orient, NY.
SCTM#1000-19-1-7.5. Zone R200."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
please.
MR. TREZZA: I sure
Enter your name,
can. I'm Anthony
Trezza with KPC Planning Services on behalf of
the applicant. I have with me today the
property owner and applicant, Edward Latham
and his wife, Helen, as well as Debra Dory who
is the attorney for the project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you not hear?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
I don't think we can control the volume.
MR. TREZZA: I'll try to speak louder.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have in our
record the following correspondence. I just
want to make sure you have all of these pieces
so that you can address them.
MR. TREZZA: Okay, sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have a letter
from LWRP, from Suffolk County Planning and
from the Southold Town Planning Board, from
Soil and Water. Do you need copies of any of
those?
MR. TREZZA: I have the Soil and Water, I
recall getting that. The Planning Board I did
get a copy. LWRP and the Planning Commission,
I did not.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let me just
give you all of those. Nothing remarkable,
but nevertheless
it all.
MR. TREZZA:
I want to make sure you have
Ail right, you'll see I gave
an aerial overlay showing the subject property
as well as the surrounding properties
including the properties that Mr. Latham
preserved back in 1984 and all the adjacent
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
residential lots including those on the north
side of the road and I'm get to that during
my presentation.
Let me just give you a little background
here. What we're looking at and it may seem
confusing in that we're asking for a lot of
stuff here. In fact, it's pretty
straightforward. I'm put this in perspective
so we understand exactly what's going on.
The subject tract is 10 acres of land
that's the remaining portion of land that Mr.
Latham owned from a previous development right
sale that took place in 1984 and a transfer of
title of additional land. There had been a
development right sale to the County of
approximately 114 acres and then fee title
transfer ownership to the State for an
additional 122 acres back in 1984. So Mr.
Latham back then preserved a total of 236
acres and then left out the subject tract,
which is 10 acres of land with some wetlands
as you can see on the survey. This property
contains the existing residence and garage and
all the farm structures that are actively
being used in connection with the active
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
agricultural use of the adjacent preserved
land.
Mr. Latham now is in the process of doing
his estate planning and, in doing so, the goal
is to subdivide the remaining piece into two
lots as shown on the survey. The first lot,
we'll say Lot 2 will contain the existing
house and the residence that's his wife and
then the other piece with all the farm parcels
are go to his son. We're here because we
want to have the ability to get a residence on
that lot, as is typical with any active farm
property, often you want to have the ability
to have a residence on there so someone could
live and operate the farm as is the objective
here on that property.
Unfortunately, we simply don't have
enough lot area to do so given the existence
of the wetlands. We did try to get this
process as a retroactive conservation
subdivision from the Planning Board as opposed
to coming in and getting a variance. This is
something that had been done in the past, but
unfortunately our request was denied because
of some clustered open space issue that's not
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
really pertinent to this Board, but the bottom
line is that we simply could not get it
processed as a retroactive subdivision and
instead had to come and see the Zoning Board
to get variances that Mr. Dinizio outlined in
the introduction here.
So that's the gist of what we're doing.
This is not development in the traditional
sense. This isn't a developer coming in
trying to get more out of the property than
what's really there. This is a farmer who
preserved 236 acres of land doing some estate
planning and needs to get an additional lot
with the potential for a residence on there
for his son. If you've been to the property
down there you wouldn't know that there's
anything going on on this property. You can't
see anything from the road, no one's even
know that there's two lots back there. So I
just wanted to give you that little
background.
Now, I want to start off by also saying
that the development rights component here is
important because back in 1984 when Mr. Latham
sold his development rights and did the fee
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
transfer of the open space, it's not like the
process is today. The zoninH is different,
the subdivision regulations were different.
Today, if you come in to preserve land you sit
down with staff members that would include
Melissa and staff from the Planning Board and
you will know exactly what your subdivision
potential is. How many lots can you get in a
conservation subdivision? How many lots can
you get in a standard subdivision, all the
rules are laid out for you and you Ho ahead
and you do it.
That was not the case in 1984. You know,
there was no such process and again the
regulations were so vastly different that the
circumstances back then and the circumstances
today are quite different. So this is not Mr.
Latham not trying to comply with the zoning
laws, the fact of the matter is everything has
chanHed over the course of time makinH it
difficult for him to do this estate planning
without getting the variances requested. So I
think that's all I wanted to say
about that.
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I'd like to go through your criteria for
granting the variances and then I'm entertain
any questions that the Board or the public
has. The first is whether or not there's be
an undesirable change to the character of the
community. This property is already developed
largely with structures that people don't know
are there. You can see them from the road.
The future potential for an existing
residential lot isn't change the character of
the community taking into account that the
immediate adjacent property of 236 acres has
already been preserved, there's other
preserved land in the neighborhood, so quite
frankly the rural character of the community
is remain exactly as it is today. There
won't be any changes.
The other side of it is that in terms of
character of the community, as already alluded
to, if you want to preserve farmland the first
step is to preserve farmland either through a
development right sale or other land use
mechanism, but that means of itself isn't
sustain active farmland over time. In cases
like this, farmers have had the ability to do
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
something reasonable with the property that's
left over. In this case, subdividing it off
to get an extra residential unit. To me
that's very consistent with the character of
the community having a residential lot with
agricultural buildings used in connection with
active agricultural land actually defines the
character of the community. So there's not
be any changes with regard to that.
In addition, if you look at the aerial
photograph you're see that the subject
properties that are being created, even though
they're in five acre zoning, are still
significantly larger than many of the other
lots that are in the area. Particularly on
the north side of the road, there's a
subdivision and it's not fully developed, but
there is a subdivision with lots in the range
of 1-2 acres so there's that. The other side
of it is if this property had not been
preserved or, for example, the Terry parcel
next door came in for a subdivision, in fact,
the subdivision regulations result in
clustering of lots, which inevitably results
in lot sizes that are be smaller than what
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the zoning requires and I just point that out
to sort of explain that the 5-acre zoning is
really a density issue, but the design of
subdivisions ultimately will result in lots
that are smaller than what the zoning
requires, that's a fact of the subdivision
regulations. So I just point that out that
even taking in account future development
potential of the surrounding neighborhood
you're not result in lots that are
inconsistent with what can be built up.
Whether or not we could accomplish this
in any other method, again, we tried to go to
the Planning Board. We tried to get this
process as a retroactive subdivision; it was
not possible. So we have to come before the
Board to get the variances that are requested.
As to whether or not these variances are
substantial, taking into account the
circumstances by which this lot was created,
which was through development right sale and
taking into account the physical
characteristics of the surrounding
neighborhood of the smaller lots, no, the
variance we're asking for are not substantial.
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In fact, development of the property is be
consistent with what's going on in the
neighborhood so as far as substantial it's not
just a numerical value, it's not just that if
you're asking for a 10-acre variance is that
substantial. There are other considerations,
in this case, the character of the community
which I think the Zoning Board can and should
take into account when determining whether to
grant the variances.
Then the other side of it is this
property could have seen a lot more
development. What we're talking about at the
end of the day is one additional possible
residence on a property that ultimately was
246 acres, not substantial however you look at
it. This will not have any impacts on the
physical or environmental conditions of the
neighborhood. This is type-II action so no
further SEQRA review is required, but I would
also point out that the most environmentally
sensitive parts of this property have already
been preserved, the farmland, and the wetlands
and the open space. So Mr. Latham's already
addressed any environmental concerns. All the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
other structures are there, they've been
there. Some have been there since the turn of
the century. So in that regard, there won't
be any affects on the physical or
environmental conditions of the neighborhood.
Whether or not this was a self-created
hardship there will be debate in town about
whether or not it is and I would say, again,
looking at the difference being done in 1984
where a farmer didn't have the benefit of
staff sitting down with them and saying here
is what you can and can't do with your
property. Here is the maximum number of lots
that you can get based on the subdivision
requirements. Mr. Latham sold the development
rights and all these years later is trying to
do estate planning, the regulations have
changed. I mean they've even eliminated set
offs, which was supposed to be a simpler
procedure, particularly for farmers to a
subdivision and even that was taken out of the
Code. So over time the regulations have
changed so vastly that this really wasn't
self-created. It's just a product of the
situation changing as the Town changed over
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
time. So I think those are the points I
wanted to address.
I'd also like to point out that the
Planning Board, as you guys know, did their
review of this and they support the
application. I'm just looking at -- I saw the
Soil and Water. They have no issues with the
subdivision. County typically is a matter of
local determination and we have a consistent
review from the LWRP so we've met all those
standards. I know there was an LWRP review I
prepared the form and submitted it. So on
balance if the detriment to the adjacent
properties or the community or I should say if
the benefit sought by the applicant doesn't
outweigh any detriment. There is be no
detriment. No one is even know that there's
another residential lot back there and we're
talking about one extra residential lot. So
there is no detriment to the community.
So on balance I think this is a
compelling case to grant the variances taking
into account the history of this property and
I have to ask the Board to take into account
the time period when Ed Latham sold the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
development rights and preserved the open
space, 236 acres, and to get one extra lot out
of it is not unreasonable. Again, this is not
some massive development being built out in
Orient. It's a very simple project, quite
frankly. So that's what I have to say about
that and I'm happy to answer any questions
that you have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, now we should talk
about the Notice of Disapproval because that's
what we're trying to deal with here.
MR. TREZZA: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Nunfoer one, what is the
total square footage of the lot, one lot, the
whole piece that you have before we split?
MR. TREZZA: Is 435,600 square feet, 10
acres.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. TREZZA: That includes the area of
the wetlands.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Does it include that
right-of-way also, that Suffolk County land
now - -
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. TREZZA: No, it does not. That's a
right-of-way that was created that provides
some future access should it be needed to the
preserved piece in the back, which is
specifically, I believe, it's specifically
accounted for in the easement. So that 50-
foot right-of-way that you see that says,
"Land of formerly the Latham Farm and the
County of Suffolk", is not part of that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not included in that
435,000?
MR. TREZZA: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. It also mentions
here about two uses. What are the two uses on
that piece of property? That would be parcel
17
MR. TREZZA: Parcel 1, well it would be
the proposed future residence as 1 and it
would be the -- let me just I'm going back to
the second part of that. We're showing a
2000-square-foot footprint and we accounted
for that in our coverage requirement. See we
have a 5 percent coverage maximum, it's
already at 7.78 with a 2000-square-foot house
in the future, it would simply go up to 7.86;
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
that's hardly substantial. So the first use
we're talking about there is possibly the
residential and the second use relates to the
existing farm structures as a, I guess in
Mike's determination, as a principal use and a
principal agricultural use of the property.
Sure there could be some debate about
whether it's accessory or not, but we're here
for the variances, so I think that that's a
determination that Mike made and so we proceed
like that. So those are the two uses.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What is the current lot
coverage?
MR. TREZZA: On that property, on lot 1
it's 7.78 percent.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's currently without
the house.
MR. TREZZA: That's currently without the
house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. TREZZA: With a 2000-square-foot
house, it would go up to 7.86 percent. A 0.08
percent increase in lot coverage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I see. So what was the
first number you gave me, 7-point?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. TREZZA: 7.78 percent.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 7.78, okay. Afterwards,
it'll go up to 7.86 percent.
MR. TREZZA: Yup.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not much of an increase,
is it?
MR. TREZZA: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and then lot 2,
what is the proposed square footage?
MR. TREZZA: Lot 2, 122,170 square feet.
Again, it's arranged in such a way because the
estate planning is accounting for the existing
residence and the garage to be transferred at
some point to one owner and then the farm
structures with the future residence to
another owner.
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right. Okay and
then the building that's 10-foot frame garage;
what is that? Is that a garage for the house
or is that just
little notch --
MR. TREZZA:
talking about.
I'm not
a garage for, you know, the
I know exactly what you're
I'll let Debra answer that,
exactly sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MS. DOTY: Debra Doty, attorney for Ed
Latham. I was not alive at the time, but I
believe it was built around 1840 and it's an
old garage that's been sitting there since
then, that would be retained on the farm
building lot.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. It hasn't got
anything to do with the house now other than a
car or whatnot?
MS. DOTY: No, the detached garage for
the house is the one in the back, to the back
to the west of the house on lot 2.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. All right, what
else do I have here? I think that's it. I
see -- I mean there's a lot of wetlands so,
you know, like that kind of hurts you a little
bit. So all the structures are here, the
setback problems with the wetlands you can't
possibly do anything about anyway.
MR. TREZZA: Most of
pre-date zoning and, like
go back to the late 1800s.
these structures
I said, many of them
MEMBER DINIZIO: Do we have a place where
you might want to -- where you would put a
house, is there a --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. TREZZA: Well, we simply -- we had
this debate with Mike Verity. We show a
square box for the proposed house. We didn't
want to commit to a location because we don't
simply know. Nothing is proposed to be built
at this point, you know what I mean, so it's,
you know, but we have to show it cause Mike
suggested it for two reasons. Number one,
cause everyone like's to see that you could
put a house there and, number two, because
there was a coverage issue to begin with, we
wanted to get that issue addressed with this
application. So we're accounting for a 2000-
square-foot footprint and certainly that can
be conditioned as a maximum. I don't think
anybody wants to come back to get another
variance once it's said and done. So --
MEMBER DINIZIO: One more thing.
MR. TREZZA: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What about access to
this lot 17
MR. TREZZA: Right now you could see
there's one common access. Okay and we're
work this all out cause remember we still have
to finish up with the Planning Board for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
subdivision and typically that's where we'll
address the access issue. The plan is that
there will be a common access easement for the
time being to cover both lots, to cover the
existing driveway that is there and it will
serve both lots. There could be potential
and, again, we could work this out with the
Planning Board, that farm parcel, like you
were just pointing out with the 50-foot right-
of-way, there could be and it probably makes
sense from a legal standpoint that if these
properties had ever been sold or transferred
to new ownership, that access to lot 1,
particularly that's being used in connection
with the farm piece, could in fact have access
over that right-of-way that's immediately to
the east, but for the time being the plan is
that we're have a access easement that covers
the existing driveway that will provide access
to both lots. It's existing itself.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're confusing me.
I'm looking at your survey and you're saying
that the access that is existing "Land now or
formerly Latham farm property," is that the
access you're talking about?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. TREZZA: No. If you look on the
survey there's an existing driveway, right?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, I see that.
MR. TREZZA: And we're , as part of the
subdivision, put a common access easement or
however the wording is over that driveway,
which will provide because we're need access
to lot 1 over lot 2, even though we have road
frontage there's wetlands there. So we're not
getting a driveway coming through the
wetlands.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That was my concern.
MR. TREZZA: Yeah, absolutely not.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. TREZZA: We will have one access. It
will provide access to both lots. What I'm
saying to you is that that 50-foot-wide strip
that you see to the east could potentially
provide access to lot 1 in the future, but
that's be negotiated, I think, with the
Planning Department and the typical thing to
do is to have a common access easement over
lot 1 -- over lot 2 to cover the existing
driveway and that's how we're do it, but
there will not be a second direct access onto
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Main Road through the wetlands there at
point.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
have something more
this
We're probably need to
formal than that because
when we make our decision we're base it on
the survey --
MR. TREZZA: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and the survey has to
be fairly accurate and certainly there has to
be access to this, you know, this farm lot.
MR. TREZZA: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There has to be access
to it somehow --
MR. TREZZA: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- so maybe you need to
address that now.
MR. TREZZA: Sure. Like I said, the map
was drawn up this way to provide for road
frontage requirements. Okay, we show road
frontage on Main Road for lot 1. Again, we
can't get access directly to Main Road through
that portion because there's wetlands there.
So we could certainly have a notation or
something done to the survey that provides
access to lot 1 over the existing driveway --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: You need to have
something legally binding that is be on that
survey.
MR. TREZZA: Well, the Planning -- the
Planning Board isn't approve the subdivision
without those legal documents.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Neither would we.
MR. TREZZA: Okay.
MS. DOTY: The intention of what we --
Debra Doty, again. The intention of what we
had discussed was that there would be what I
call a terminal easement, terminable easement,
over lot 2 for the benefit of lot 1.
That easement would remain in effect for so
long as basically both properties remained in
the family. Should one of the lots get sold,
there would be access in the back and up that
50-foot right-of-way to the Main Road and the
Board may want to consider granting the
variance subject to an agreement by the
Planning Board regarding that easement.
The easement has not been drafted yet,
but I've spoken with Mr. Latham about it and
he's amenable and he encourages it. So I mean
as I said to him this morning, if the farm
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
parcel where sold to a huge farming operation
and they were running bulldozers up and down
their driveway, that wouldn't be acceptable
and that, therefore, we will make plans with
the Planning Department to cover that
contingency. That, if the farm building
parcel got sold, or the house parcel, that the
easement would terminate and I've done
terminable easements before.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask you a
question, Debra, before you go away. Can you
put in writing that information to the Zoning
Board so that we can incorporate that as a
condition?
MS. DOTY: Certainly. I mean my only
thought is that it might make sense to work it
out with the Planning Department because I'm
not entirely certain what language they're
require, but our intent is for lot 1, there
would be access over lot 2 that would
terminate upon various contingencies. The
primary one being transfer of sale of either
one of the two lots and that access then would
be around back and up to the east.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I guess what I'm
attempting to do is figure out how we can go
ahead and take care of the Zoning Board issues
and allow you to proceed with Planning Board
without holding up our decision. So if we can
find the language that will allow us to
condition our determination based upon
agreements with the Planning Board in some way
or another --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think it's very
difficult to grant two lots when you don't
have any kind of access to one of the lots
that we're granting. You know, I think that
that's the fundamental rule, you have to have
access. You can't -- what is the resistance
with doing it now? Is there --
MS. DOTY: I just haven't worked out the
language yet. That's the problem and we
haven't talked to the Planning Department and
Board and I'm concerned that if I were to give
you language and they didn't like the language
then we're back here to change the language,
but I could provide something that, you know,
substantially, this will be what we're talking
about if that's acceptable to the Board here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think it speaks
to the intent, but I think Jim has a valid
point --
MS. DOTY: Absolutely. I agree.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and that, you
know, we want to just make sure that what
we're approving is what happens and so we just
have to figure out just how to do this. I
don't believe we'll need another hearing on
this, I don't see why -- if we could hold it
open subject to receipt of an agreement and
then close it and make a determination. You
know, what we're trying to do is figure out
how to make sure the process works smoothly
and legally all the way around and not having
to come back and look at an amended decision
because the language was different or
something like that.
MS. DOTY: Well, couldn't you provide the
variances granted contingent or conditioned
upon the Planning Board's sanctioning
alternate access for the farm building parcel;
isn't that possible?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, it is
possible.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MS. DOTY: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But I think we
would want to make sure that we get the
language correct (inaudible) --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah (inaudible).
MS. DOTY: I'm not resisting giving you
language. I just don't want to be --
MEMBER DINIZIO: We have a policy
basically that we make our decisions based on
the final result of what it's look like. We
ran into a lot of problems with not having
that because, you know, applicants would tend
to after the -- the applicant for building
permit would tend to submit whichever survey,
one of several surveys they may have submitted
during the process that they liked and
sometimes that happened.
I'm not saying that's happen with Mr.
Latham, I'm just saying that we're trying to
adhere to that. So as close as you can come
to permitting us to grant two lots, two legal
lots, which means access to both on a survey,
certainly would be the ideal. I mean just
making the survey and, you know, you're the
lawyer. I know you for many years, I know
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
that you can do it, but just we need to see
something.
MS. DOTY: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I need to see something
that's tell me that, yeah, this is what's
happen. I mean if it was a question of a few
feet and you have to come back to us, you
know, I mean they have to come back to us
cause that's the government works, but I know
we can't grant two lots -- we can't grant a
lot without having some access.
MS. DOTY: I understand that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Without you committing
to some access.
MS. DOTY: And we're saying at this point
that there will be access across lot 2, that
there would be an easement. I haven't drafted
it yet, but we'll work on language for you. I
mean the intent is not to land lock the farm
parcel because that doesn't do any good.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's what I'm
saying. I mean, you know, and you're asking
us to grant a lot that doesn't have access.
That, you know, that's not good either.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can look at
granting the size of the two proposed lots,
the dimensional subject to legal agreement
with the Planning Board as to the location of
rights of way and moreover a final survey
approved by the Planning Board, which we'll
then enter into our decision after the fact.
We'll file it with this decision. We can do
it that way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That would be fine. We
don't have to grant it final approval until --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we can do
it that way.
MS. DOTY: And I'm sure I'll be having
conversations with the Town Attorney over this
anyway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MS. DOTY: So, you know, but that's the
intent.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I would also
just like to enter into the record relative to
this correspondence that we've received that
the Planning Board is in support of these
variances which leads me to believe that
they're not have a problem with figuring out
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the rights of way. Secondly, we have a letter
from Soil and Water indicating no adverse
environmental impact on the proposal and we
have a letter from LWRP indicating it is
consistent. So I thought that would be
important information to enter into the record
since we're trying to address these issues now
in our hearing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Were there any -- I
don't think I saw the LWRP
he would like to have?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
what that letter says.
Anthony. What does it
it's consistent.
-- conditions that
Let me look and see
Oh, we gave it to
say, Anthony? It says
MR. TREZZA: I think that's all that it
says. There were no recommendations.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: I'd just like to get on
the record prior to 1984 when the development
rights were traded off, would you say this was
one large farm at
time?
MR. TREZZA:
that time, prior to that
Absolutely.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
89
MEMBER HORNING: And would you say that
these two parcels were sort of subdivided out
of the development rights. Did they become,
did that become sort of a subdivision itself?
You alluded to something like that.
MR. TREZZA: Yeah, if -- yeah, what
happens is the development rights sale
occurred and, as you could see on the tax map,
they broke out that one --
MEMBER HORNING: That one parcel.
MR. TREZZA: -- which we're proposing to
subdivide into two.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MR. TREZZA: As part of the subdivision
process, we are memorialize what you're
speaking of. That farm parcel, that large
farm parcel is -- will officially be a
separate lot. It's not, unfortunately, again,
even back in 1984 the regulations were
different so people sort of did these things
and, you know, municipalities were okay with
it, but the fact is that we are have to
memorialize that and we will because it'll
make it much cleaner, I think --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING:
my final question.
MR. TREZZA:
MEMBER HORNING:
now do we define it
Is that what you're
Okay,
Sure.
that brings me to
What you're proposing
as a standard subdivision?
go to the Planning Board
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account the amount of
MEMBER HORNING:
subdivision?
MR. TREZZA:
That's correct.
land that was preserved.
So it's be a standard
MR. TREZZA: That's what the Planning
Board is defining it as, yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: A standard subdivsion.
MR. TREZZA: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: And yet you have this
large conservation piece in back of it, but
conservation subdivision is not a part of what
you're doing right now.
MR. TREZZA: We tried.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. TREZZA: We tried to have it done
retroactively, which has been done in the
past, but there were other reasons why so we
looked into it. We've been trying taking into
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else in the
audience that would like to address this
application? Please come to the mike.
MR. RYALL: Hi, my name is Bill Ryall
and I live in Orient. I'm just here for
another matter altogether, but this is the
sort of thing I've paid attention to and been
involved with the Peconic Land Trust and I
just, since no one mentioned it, I want to say
what Tim Caulfield mentioned to me recently
about another piece of land, which is that the
Land Trust has come to realize that they have
to also encourage a place for people who farm
the land to live on the land, too, but it
hasn't really worked that well just preserving
land and hoping that it had been farmed by
people who might have to live 50 miles away at
this point. So that's just my two-cents
worth.
I would certainly be in favor of this.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Anybody
else?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
make a motion to close the hearing subject to
receipt of information from Mr. Latham's
attorney.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6422 - BENALI, LLC
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
~Request for Variances from Article XXIII
Code Section 280-124 based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's August 27, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed construction
of a single family dwelling at less than the
code required front yard setback of 35 feet,
at: 1275 Cedar Point Dr., West (adj. to West
Lake) Southold, NY. SCTM#1000-90-1-2."
We need -- is there someone here to
represent Benali, LLC?
MR. KRAM: Steve Kram.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, Mr. Kram.
Hold on one second, let me just see what
correspondence we have here to make sure that
you -- also we are missing three green cards.
Do you know anything about that?
MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Anderson, I know,
filed with the clerk the actual certified mail
receipts, but I think we had only gotten in
two or three green cards; correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we have three
outstanding. Can you try and trace those to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
see where they are
MR. ROSENBERG:
slips, so it was mailed.
affidavit of mailing.
through the post office?
We have the certified
We have the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Could you
just give your name for the tape?
MR. ROSENBERG; Yeah, Madam Chairperson,
members of the board, my name is David
Rosenberg, Rosenberg, Fortuna and Laitman, 666
Old Country Road, Garden City. I'm here on
behalf of the applicant, Benali, LLC. Also
with me on the presentation to day will be Mr.
Bruce Anderson who I know is very familiar to
this Board, from Suffolk Environmental
Consulting, and also Steven Kram who is the
principal of the limited liability company.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, now before we
get started, counselor, I want to make sure
that you're aware that we have correspondence
in our file from LWRP, from Suffolk County
Planning, from the Trustees, and we now as of
this morning have two letters from neighbors.
MR. ROSENBERG: Okay, I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have all of
that correspondence?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR.
Defriese,
the east,
think it was.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
got --
MR.
ROSENBERG: I have a letter from
who is the neighbor immediately to
dated about October 19tn or 18tn, I
ROSENBERG:
Um-hmm and we just
I also have something
from the Town asking I think something about
re-flagging the property, a request for re-
flagging the property. That I have, yes. I
don't think I have the other correspondence.
I know we were looking for the LWRP assessment
by I guess Mr. Terry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's make
sure you get a copy of that. The basic --
basically what Mr. Terry has done -- let me
pull this out. I want to make sure you have
copies so that you can address all of these
things.
MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The LWRP was simply
suggesting -- I'll read it into the record, I
will skip over the description of the
property. "The wetland delineation line shown
on the survey titled, 'survey of lot 134 map
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
of Cedar Beach Park filed December 20, 1927
and map 40' submitted to the Board is
substantially different from the wetland
delineation line shown on the survey submitted
to the Board of Trustees for the Kram
application on the same parcel. The later
line was used to issue permits for a dock
structure by the Board of Trustees #6325 and
the New York State Department of Environmental
Conservation," and there are some numbers.
"It is recommended that the application be
amended to reflect the wetland line previously
recognized by the issuing entities. The
surveys are attached for your perusal. Once
an amended survey is received the Local
Waterfront Revitalization Program coastal
consistency review can be conducted for the
proposed action."
So he is essentially saying until there
is some reconciliation between previous survey
that shows wetlands located in quite a
different location than the prior survey that
was submitted to the Zoning Board, which is
basically what the Trustees also were
addressing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. ROSENBERG: That explains the
Trustees' request, I guess.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're also
requesting, while we're reviewing the
document, that the wetlands be re-flagged and
surveyed by Interscience, JMO Environmental
Consulting, or EN Consultants; the point is
that they're requesting that the Zoning Board
and Trustees, hire a consultant for the
purposes of re-flagging and also to examine
potential environmental
been done yet, but that
discussion.
impact. That has not
is part of this
MR. ROSEBERG: Madam Chairperson, if I
could just see Mr. Terry's either
correspondence or his report because I'd like
to see what the variance is between the two.
If the wetland line is further south and he's
suggesting that's the one we could use,
obviously I would have no problem. If he's
showing it's further north, then I think we'll
have to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You
have
the Trustees'
MR. ROSENBERG:
Just a minute.
letter, yes?
I have the Trustees'
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
letter merely asking --
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Suffolk
County letter that simply says it's local
determination, basically. Letter from Douglas
and Lydia Defriese and a letter -- do you have
a copy of this letter, Vicki?
BOARD SECRETARY: Yes, I'll go make
copies right now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: I have the letter or more
of a memorandum form addressed to you from Mr.
Terry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: LWRP also. Just
let the tape recorder note that the Board
Assistant has left the room to make copies for
the applicant of the correspondence.
MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But we can
continue.
MR. ROSENBERG: Madam Chairperson, I have
what appears to be almost a memo addressed to
you from Mr. Terry, as President of the Board,
dated October 13tn suggesting that the re-
flagging be done and I also have a copy of
request by the Board, this board, to JMO from
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
October 15tn requesting in effect an estimate.
So Defriese letter I do have. It's only Mr.
Terry's correspondence and you said that I
guess the County had referred this back for
local determination. I guess I can --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: While we're talking
about correspondence, do you have a copy in
your records of two things, which speaks to
previous applications on this property? One
is dated January 4, 2002 Mr. Frank
Campanelli, who I believe is the previous
owner of the property, received by the
Trustees April 3, 2007 from the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Do
you have a copy of that?
MR. ROSENBERG: I do have correspondence
from DEC. Can I ask what was the date of that
letter?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The date of that
letter was January 4, 2002.
MR. ROSENBERG: I do not have that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: All right, let me
make that available to you and also a Southold
Town Conservation Advisory Council letter
dated March 20, 2000 recommending again
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
disapproval of a wetland permit application of
Frank Campanelli. This would be to the
Trustees because concerns with the road
setback and septic setback and the proposed
house is within 18 feet of open water, this
was to construct a one-family dwelling, septic
system, deck and floating dock with ramp.
The pertinent part of the DEC letter has
to do with the fact that they state they've
"carefully reviewed your application to
construct a single-family dwelling, deck,
garage, driveway and sanitary system in the
adjacent area of a tidal wetland. It has been
determined that your application failed to
meet applicable standards." It goes on for
some time, but concludes that ~in fact this
lot would not support a septic system in any
location." There is the suggestion that the
property be used strictly for structures such
as a shed, storage building, gravel parking
area, or any other type of small structure,
which will not utilize a sanitary system or
require extensive amounts of fill. I believe
on this basis a dock was constructed and then
it was afterwards given a permit after it had
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
already been constructed.
I'd like to make both of these letters
available to you.
MR. ROSENBERG:
date of that letter,
Thank you.
please?
What's the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The letter from the
DEC is dated January 4, 2002 and stamped April
3, 2007, which I believe was in connection
with a request to build a dwelling with a
sanitary system. That is more recent, that
took place in 2007. I believe Mr. Kram was
the individual who made that application.
Finally, Vicki
of that.
MR. ROSENBERG:
that you refer to,
on April 14, 20107
is give you copies of all
The CAC recommendation
that was at a meeting held
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, the CAC was on
the original application from Frank Campinelli
that would have been March 20, 2000.
MR. ROSENBERG: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In conjunction with
the letter I referred to from the DEC, dated
April 3, 2007, the final piece is a letter
from the Board of Town Trustees dated 4/11/07.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
It is Benali, LLC requesting a wetland permit
to construct a two-story frame dwelling 20 by
60 on piles and associated sewage disposal
system, obviously the same address. This was
an examination of an existing 50-foot dock.
The condition was to remove two sections to
make it 30 feet and remove the sliding path.
The review on the bottom says DEC denial is
forever proposed house 34 feet from tidal
wetland recommended a denial. "Property used
for access and dock. Upland not substantial
enough for a dwelling."
Do you have a copy of this?
MR. ROSENBERG: We do that, in fact, Mr.
Anderson had specifically searched the file
yesterday morning to see
come in --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
if anything else had
This is all in
laser fiche on the Town records.
MR. ROSENBERG: I will say what's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Did you make a copy
of this for him, too?
This is the file of the Trustees. I have
all that, that's just to make sure he gets a
copy and I need that back. Did you make a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
copy of the new letter?
BOARD SECRETARY: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, she's
just making you a copy.
MR. ROSENBERG: I guess I'll address
these later on. If I can just at least do the
introductory part of the presentation --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. ROSENBERG: -- but I do have some
very specific responses both to the DEC letter
and some of the other things that you have
addressed.
Members of the board, I represent Benali,
LLC, the applicant, this is a nonconforming
lot. I would like to present to either the
clerk or counsel, for the Board's
consideration, a certification from Stewart
Title Insurance Company confirming the fact
and certifying to the fact that this lot has
been in single and separate ownership for in
excess of 40 years and certainly preceding the
Code of the town. Madam Chairperson, with
your permission?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. ROSENBERG: The other thing, in view
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of some of the conversation we've just had,
which I guess gets into some more legal
arguments we may have later with counsel and
the rest of the Board over the fact that if a
variance were not to be issued for the minimum
amount that we have asked for, which is really
the minimum amount possible, which I'll get
into later, whether or not there was a taking
of this property and that I would just suggest
that there are at least three requests that my
client did make to see if there would be
anybody interested in taking this property for
open space or for anything else.
The first was made to the Peconic Land
Trust and that rejected the request and, in
fact, their determination was that any natural
easement or preservation easement would not
have any significant public benefit. So all I
have is an email from Hoot Sherman at the
Peconic Land Trust, which I think this Board
is familiar with, back in August of '08 and
they rejected that. I'd like to also present
this to the Board as well and make this part
of the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. ROSENBERG: And the other one is an
application or I should say a conversation
that was conducted with the Nature Conservancy
to see whether they were interested in the
property. They similarly found that this
parcel was not within what they would
determine to be a significant parcel for their
consideration.
Again, I have an email concerning that,
which I'd like -- and that goes back to March
of this year --
Lastly, I know the Board is very familiar
with Patricia Moore, who represented Benali at
one point, and this property concerning the
dock issue, but at that time and back in '07
she also made inquiry to see whether the Town
itself would be interested in acquiring this
property and the Town expressed it had no
interest in acquiring this property at that
time. Yeah, by the way, at the time it was
suggested that if they wanted to take it there
would be a donation of the property and the
Town was not interested in it.
MEMBER HORNING: DO you have that in
writing, too, sir?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Ms.
you.
MR. ROSENBERG: I have the letter from
Moore to the Town asking --
MEMBER HORNING: Whatever you have, thank
MR. ROSENBERG: This is a letter from May
21 to the Town Board suggesting that they
would offer (inaudible). I don't have a
written response from the Town, but Mr. Kram
(inaudible).
Madam Chairperson, members of the Board,
at this time, I'd like to introduce Bruce
Anderson who I think is well known by this
Board as our environmental and planning
consultant who will make the technical
presentation of what we're trying to do here
and why this is the minimum possible lot size
-- minimum possible variance that we could be
seeking to have any use of the property at all
for the use which is permitted and then I will
later introduce Mr. Kram who has some comments
he'd like to make to the Board and I will also
then follow up on the DEC issues and some of
the objections raised by Mr. and Mrs.
Defriese.
MR. ~LNDERSON: Good morning. My name is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Bruce Anderson. I'm with Suffolk
Environmental Consulting and I represent the
applicant, Benali, LLC.
To assist hopefully everyone in this
room, I'm enter two things into the record.
The first is a correspondence with
accompanying materials that outline the
variances that have been granted in the
immediate neighborhood taken from Town
records. I'd make that part of the record.
The second item I will put in are a series of
aerial photographs. There is an aerial
photograph, a subdivision map, and a tax map.
I'll put this in so as to provide you with the
sense of the character of the land.
The applicant, Benali, LLC, proposes to
construct an 860-square-foot single-family
dwelling. The two-story single-family
dwelling would contain three bedrooms and
would be served by a septic system and public
water. The subject parcel contains 7185
square feet, which consists of 6,580 square
feet of upland and 605 square feet of
wetlands.
Coverage over the upland portion of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
site is calculated at 13.1 percent. Subject
parcel is also parcel number 134 of the
subdivision map of Cedar Beach Park, which was
filed in 1927, and lies within this R-40
zoning district. A comparison between the
subdivision map and a tax map will show that
the property boundaries established in 1927
are the same property boundaries that exist
today.
There is one lot that consists of two
properties, there's actually two lots that
consist of two properties that are merged
together so that the areas, the dimensions,
the difficulty experienced by all of these
lots date back to the original filing of the
subdivision map and those dimensions, those
lot areas have been maintained from 1927 to
present. This parcel like nearly every parcel
comprised in the neighborhood is a pre-
existing nonconforming parcel with respect to
lot area and it is a recognized building lot.
Subject parcel is also unique in that it is a
waterfront lot and that lot depth is limited.
On August 28, 1967 the Town of Southold
granted a building permit #3587Z authorizing
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the construction of a 24-foot by 36-foot one-
story dwelling having a front yard setback of
35 feet. That was for this parcel. So in
1967 a building permit was issued and a house
could have been built in 1967.
We are requesting --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) prior,
correct?
MR. ANDERSON: Correct.
We are requesting a variance pursuant to
280-124 that provides that for lots under
20,000 square feet the front setback shall be
a minimum of 35 feet. As proposed, the
dwelling would be 10 feet from the front lot
line and that would be the lot line at Cedar
Point Drive West, therefore, 25 feet is
requested. It is the only variance we need
from this Board.
The neighborhood consists of similar
sized lots, as the tax map and the filed map
will show. In addition, the aerial photograph
before you will show how those lots were
developed and you'll see that they were
developed with single-family dwellings,
substantially nonconforming with respect to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
various nonconforming setbacks which are
outlined by variances as I've shown you there,
but also as evidenced by the aerial photograph
that I've put into this record.
The neighborhood is characterized as
consisting of 26 lots that surround West Lake
or have frontage on Peconic Bay and nearly all
of these lots exhibit some form of
nonconformity. The tax map will show that all
but two parcels are the same as created in the
filed maps. 25 out of the 26 lots that
comprise the neighborhood remain
nonconforming.
Our variance criteria, we submit that
there would be no impact to the character of
the neighborhood because the property is
typical for the neighborhood and the dwelling
to be constructed is of minimal size. The
existing front yard setback for the property
adjacent to and east of subject property, that
would be the property owned by Defriese who I
understand is objecting to our application, is
setback 18 feet from the front lot line and 5
feet from the water. There are other
properties that enjoy either pre-existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
nonconforming front yard setbacks or variant
setback relief.
We submit that the benefit sought by the
applicant cannot be achieved by some other
method feasible for the applicant to pursue
other than the area variance because, first,
the lot is of limited size containing only
7,185 square feet of which 6,580 square feet
are upland. Second, because the lot has
limited depth given the distance between the
wetland boundary and the road is 55 feet.
Third, because the project seeks to maximize
wetland setbacks, thereby placing the house in
closer proximity to the front lot line than
otherwise required, and fourth, because the
lot was created as part of a subdivision which
was created prior to the enactment of the
restricted statute making it nonconforming
with respect to area and dimensional
requirements.
We submit that the variance sought will
not be substantial because the variance has
been minimized by constructing a small house.
In fact, the coverage proposed in this
application constitutes 13.1 percent of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
upland area and, thus, it is 35 percent below
the maximum permissible coverage permitted in
this zone, which is 20 percent. The front
yard setback is only 8 feet closer than the
dwelling adjacent to and east of subject
property. That would be the Defriese parcel.
We submit that the granting of variance
will not have an adverse affect on the impact
on the physical and environmental conditions
of the neighborhood because all best
management practices have been incorporated
into the project design and those best
management practices include the following:
First, the septic system would be
suitably elevated above ground water, would be
appropriately surrounded and contained within
a retaining wall, and would properly serve the
dwelling to be erected.
Second, the runoff generated from the
project would be suitably captured and
recharged. The project would comply in all
respects with stormwater control standards of
the Town of Southold.
Third, a continuous line of hay bales and
silt fence would be installed to contain any
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
construction related erosion events and the
land would be suitably stabilized by
vegetation upon completion of construction.
Fourth, the proposed driveway would be of
gravel and, therefore, would be pervious.
Fifth, sufficient area for parking would
be accommodated underneath the dwelling.
Sixth, the dwelling would be constructed
on piles, thereby obviating the need for
trenching required in standard foundation
construction.
Seven, no grading is proposed and the
fill proposed at 111 cubic yards is the
minimum amount of fill and is to be utilized
solely for the construction of the septic
system.
We submit that the hardship we experience
here is not self-created because this is a
pre-existing nonconforming lot in the zone in
which it lies and is recognized by the Town as
a building lot. The applicant has sought to
minimize the variance relief requested through
project design. That means small house, house
on piles, hay bales, driveway, parking areas,
limitation of grading.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Taken together, it is our contention that
the benefit of the applicant, if the variance
were granted, would outweigh any detriment to
the health safety and welfare of the
neighborhood or community. The benefit to the
applicant would be the ability to develop this
property in accordance with its intended use
which is residential. Development of the
parcel in a manner consistent with the
development patterns of the neighborhood will
not impact upon the health, safety and welfare
of the neighborhood or community. That
concludes my basic presentation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. KRAM: Madam Chair, members of the
board, thank you for taking the time to hear
us today. My name is Steven Kram. I own a
home at 2 Sunset Lane, which is 500 yards from
this subject parcel. I've been coming out
here for over 40 years. My uncle, my aunt, my
mother lived out here until she passed last
year, and now my children come out here. My
son, Benjamin, my daughter, Natalie, hence the
name Benali; it's a combination of their
names.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
I see Jim Fitzgerald sitting here. He
knows that many years ago I launched a search
to find a piece of property. We looked at
aerial photos, found empty lots and called
people to see if they were interested in
selling so that my children could live next or
as close as possible to me. I think that's
important. You may know the Zebitz' they do
the same thing with their family and we know
each other since we were children out here.
I take exception to the neighbor to the
east's letter. I went to Mr. Defriese after I
bought this property. I let him know what I
was apply for and, you know, to try to get a
permit to try to build a house for my kids.
For him to write a letter that says I knew it
was nonconforming -- I've only met the man
once and that was after I bought the property.
So I don't know how he could know anything
about what I knew.
He was very unhappy that I bought this
property. Apparently, he had been trying to
buy the property himself. He's a real estate
developer and he'd been trying to get it and
was very upset that Mr. Campanelli sold this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
to me and he told me, at the time, that he was
give me trouble and it was all about sour
grapes because he really should have that
property. Those are his words, sour grapes,
and that's what he's doing. He wanted to make
sure nobody could build but him. I only met
him once.
His letter says -- I told you that I'd
only met him that one time after I owned it so
it's just self-serving. I would also note
that Mr. Defriese's house, while he talks
about the extent of our nonconforming use, his
house is 8 feet from the water. 8 feet. You
can go over with a tape measure, maybe it's 8
feet 3 inches and that was approved. He also,
when he applied for his house, he proposed
being 10 feet from the road, now he objects to
our doing that. I just find it upsetting.
I'd like to reemphasize that I offered to
put a conservation easement on this property.
I went to the Peconic Land Trust, they then
came back to me and said, well, we might be
interested. Will you pay $10,000.00 as a
donation and we'll take it and that'll help us
maintain the property? I said, okay, I'll do
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
it. They then still said they didn't want it.
The Nature Conservancy didn't want it. The
Town of Southold, not interested. They kept
saying this is not an important lot to
conserve and there's no public benefit and
they'd just have to maintain it. You know, if
there's no public benefit, I'm not sure how
now people can feel that this has to be
preserved as open space.
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, what was your
intent when you bought it?
MR. KR3~4: My intent when I bought it was
to build a home there. My mother was getting
elderly. I was starting to run out of cash
and I thought, okay, if I donate it to the
Town I'll live with that, take my tax
deduction. I'll go home. Nobody wanted the
property. So I figure, okay, I'm build a
house for my kids. We had six family meetings
about this. My son who lives here in New York
desperately wants to have a home here to be
able to be part of this community. I said,
okay. I mean, I'll build a house.
MEMBER HORNING: So you're saying simply
that you bought it originally with the intent
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
to build a house.
MR. KR3d~: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Then you -- now you're
saying you ran out of money.
MR. KRAM: At that point I did. At that
point it became difficult. My mother was
dying and it became difficult and I said, you
know something, if I can -- you know, I don't
want to have a fight about this property. I
don't want to argue about it, I'll donate it,
if people feel that this is a valuable piece
of property. Everybody turned me down.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. I wonder if you
had any of these -- you bought it in what
year?
MR. KR3kM: Was it '05? I forget what the
MR. ROSENBERG: Deeded date January 26tn
of '06.
MR. KPJkM: '06.
MR. ROSENBERG: (Inaudible) '05.
MR. KRAM: '05.
MEMBER HORNING: Where was the DEC notice
of permit denial from the DEC to Mr. Frank
Campanelli dated April 3, 2007 and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Southold Town -- this other correspondence
from the Conservation Advisory Council dated
March 20, 2000; where were those when all of
your considerations were taking place?
MR. ROSENBERG: I thought you were asking
about the denial, which I'll address. If you
want (inaudible).
MR. KRAM: I'd be happy to. When we
bought this property, Mr. Campanelli, directly
asked whether there were any denials or any
issues that this property, said no. He hid
those letters. He did not provide it to us at
the closing. He did not inform us. The only
thing he gave us was a copy of an approved
permit to build a house there in 1960 -- '67.
That's the only thing he gave me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's follow
up on that. How are you using the property
now?
MR. KRAM:
a dock there.
We're not. I mean it just has
We use it once in a while.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you use it to
launch a boat from, I presume.
MR. KRAM: Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't
have a boat, but yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a dock.
Did you build the dock?
MR. KRAM: Yes, I did.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: And did you have a
permit or did you get the permit after you
built the dock?
MR. KRAM: I'd be happy to explain.
Actually, Jim Fitzgerald is here. The entire
time the dock we being permitted and being
constructed I was in California. Somehow
there was a miscommunication by Mr. Fitzgerald
and Mr. Crowley and -- Crowley being the dock
builder, and somehow he was told we have a
permit and he went ahead and built the dock.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you have a dock,
you also have a shed; is that correct?
MR. KRAM: Yes, I applied for a shed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you have some
parking area cleared on the property.
MR. KRAM: Yes. Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So while there is
clearly no public benefit as determined by
other agencies, there is to you a private
benefit of recreational use. You have
storage, you have a dock, you have water
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
access and you have parking.
MR. KRAM: Well, I guess that just makes
the point that when I got the dock permit,
which was the first step, there was no
condition, no agreement. No statements on my
part that we wouldn't build a house. We never
said that. We never said that to anybody.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You may not have
done that, but we also have information from
4/11/07 in which Benali LLC requested a
wetland permit to construct a two-story frame
dwelling on piles with associated sewage
disposal system.
MR. KR~M: Even back then we did, that's
right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes and nothing
came of that, it was denied, so why is it
different now? What is different between 2007
and 20107
MR. ROSENBERG:
Chairman.
MEMBER HORNING:
I'll address that, Madam
I have another question
for this fellow, or the applicant's advisors
or whatever. Are you part -- is this parcel
part of the West Lake Association?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. KRAM: Yes,
MEMBER HORNING:
from them?
it is.
Have you heard anything
MR. KP3~M: No, actually I had a
conversation with both the president and I
believe he's the treasurer, Mr. Gunn and Mr.
Prokop, saying they absolutely would not
oppose our application.
MEMBER HORNING: That's curious and I'll
make a comment because we had another
application down on the shore side of --
MR. KR3U~: In which they were very
actively opposing the application.
MEMBER HORNING: Yes, my point. So I'm
curious as to why they --
MR. KR3~M: They have told me they have no
issues with my application.
MEMBER HORNING: Can you get that in
writing?
MR. KI~AM: I don't -- it's the
Association, I guess I could try to get them
to come in here.
MEMBER HORNING: Wish you would because
they were so active in this most recent
application, I'm curious as to --
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MR. KRAM: Fine.
MEMBER HORNING: Anything in favor of the
application benefits the applicant --
MR. KRAM: Thank you, I appreciate that.
MEMBER HORNING: -- whether from
neighbors, etc.
MR. KR3%M: I appreciate that.
MR. ROSENBERG: Members of the Board, I'm
at somewhat of a disadvantage, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just for our Board
Assistant's sake, just spell your name again,
please.
MR.
R-G.
ROSENBERG: Rosenberg, R-O-S-E-N-B-E-
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. ROSENBERG: I'm at somewhat of a
disadvantage because what, and I appreciate
the Chairperson having the clerk give me a
couple of these copies, but would I be correct
in assuming that the Board will probably
continue this hearing because of the wetland
issue and the flagging of the wetland? In
which case I want to reserve obviously time to
look into some of this, but I do have some
preliminary comments based upon what I've
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seen.
Madam Chairperson, the first thing that I
remember you specifically addressing when we
talked about things that were in the file, was
an April 11, '07 it looks like a checklist
from the Board of Trustees and presumably that
was on the wetland permit and, in fact, you
had read into the record that it says, the DEC
denial is forever, which is a handwritten
notation at the bottom of that document coming
from somebody on the staff of the Town Board
of Trustees, not from DEC, and what is really
puzzling to me, when they say that DEC denial
is forever and this is in 2007, is that we've
had a submission to the DEC on this property
for a tidal wetlands permit and on September
30, 2009, which is two years later, they are
considering our application. They do not make
reference to any prior application that was
denied. They do not make any application with
reference to the fact that something was
denied forever and, in fact, the chief thing
here which goes to the reflagging issue and
why there may appear to Mr. Terry to be an
inconsistency between the two maps and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
certainly we don't object to the reflagging I
just want to make sure that nobody thinks we
were trying to do anything, is that in this
letter, which I will now make part of the
record, from DEC dated September 30, 2009,
~'Our technical staff," according to the
letter, "has determined that the tidal
wetlands boundary at this site is currently
located along the 2-foot elevation contour.
Please revise the boundary shown on the survey
accordingly."
The DEC has indicated and their technical
staff has confirmed that the wetland boundary
is at the 2-foot contour, which is why you
will see that our survey, in fact, shows the
wetland boundary at the 2-foot contour. Where
that prior survey came from and I don't know
who made that determination, I don't know, but
I certainly think that DEC's technical staff
would probably be in the best position to
determine where the wetland boundary is. So
I'd like to present this for the record.
I would ask that since this is the only
copy that sometime after we break I may be
able to get a copy.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. ROSENBERG: Getting back to the
notation on this Town document about DEC
denial being forever. The only thing I can
think of and, again, I am somewhat puzzled
myself and I'll walk you through what I'm
seeing here, is that I see this notice of
permit denial from January 4, 2002, which, as
the Chairperson pointed out, has a stamp of
April 3, 2007, more than 5 years later, and
then that memo from the Town Board is April
11, '07, which is a few days after the stamp
date that's on the DEC letter.
The DEC letter that I have is not signed.
It shows certain CCs that were crossed out.
It shows a paragraph crossed out with a
notation ~insert doc or okay paragraph". I
don't know what that means and, again, one of
the reasons I am appreciate the continuance
of the hearing is I would like to go to DEC's
file and I don't know if this letter is
actually issued by DEC. It could have been a
draft, it could have been something. I would
assume that if they were sending a copy of
anything to the Town it would have been an
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
executed copy without editorial comments on it
and even that letter doesn't say anything here
has been denied forever. In fact, it made
reference in the last paragraph, again
assuming this letter was, in fact, issued by
the DEC, the paragraph there on the second
page says, "This permit denial is made without
prejudice and is based upon current conditions
on the site." It appears to me that the very
existence of that paragraph says that this is
not forever and you are certainly always free
to come back in and make another application.
So again, I'd like to have the
opportunity to check the DEC file, which I'm
sure Mr. Anderson will, but again the
reference to the DEC denial being forever is
clearly a notation by somebody in the Town not
the DEC itself.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think this was in
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It doesn't
necessarily mean it's
doesn't say who it's from.
MR. ROSENBERG: Well,
form --
from the town, it
I'm making a Town
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You're saying by
the Town, I understand your point, but let the
record reflect that --
MR. ROSENBERG: No, somebody filled out
that form. It could have been a form that was
out at the clerk's desk and some member of the
public picked it up and filled it out.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes, okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: I don't know, but in fact
that even makes the credibility of the
finality statement even more suspect if
anybody could have filled it out. So I would
only point that out to the Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What is probably
more compelling is the description and we will
certainly give you ample time to address it
indicating that in relationship to a proposed
house and septic on this lot, ~It doesn't meet
the standards for permit issuance described in
Section 661.9C and since it is not compatible
with the public health and welfare and will
result in an undue adverse impact to the
present and potential value of the tidal
wetlands. High ground water influenced by
tide at the site will ultimately result in
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
failure of the septic system, thereby leaching
nutrients and pathogens from resistant
effluent into tidal wetlands and surface
waters. The proposed 25-foot setback of the
setback of the septic system from the tidal
wetland boundary is not sufficient to prevent
leaching of these chemicals into tidal waters.
The introduction of these materials into West
Bay would constitute an undue adverse impact
to the resource. In fact, this lot would not
support a septic system in any location."
With that in mind, let me just ask you on
your current proposal for a septic system, how
high is the concrete ring that you're
proposing right at the road?
MR. ROSENBERG: Okay, Bruce can answer
that one section, but before I forget if I can
just comment on one or two things you just
said. Looking at the letter, which I've just
handed in to the Board, the September 30, 2009
letter from DEC specifically says that the
"proposed dwelling is located within 25 feet
of the boundary, not closer than 25 feet of
the boundary, and that the sanitary system
that's proposed to be located 30 feet from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
wetland boundary" so certainly we have a
different -- I don't know what the application
was that this 2002 letter refers to, but
clearly from what you just read and what shows
in the 2009 letter, it clearly shows that this
is a different application. I don't know, in
fact, what this application was for, which is
one of the things I want to go to DEC and
check on, but clearly to the extent that
they're talking to the dimensions that you
just read it's clear that -- and since it was
again if it was ever issued by DEC was made
without prejudice and before you ask Mr. Kram,
for example, what's different, I'm now telling
you right on the face of these two letters
there is a significant difference.
The other is we have designed a retaining
wall around the entire sanitary system, which
would prevent the very leaching which the 2002
letter suggests was a possibility. As far as
the hei8ght, Bruce?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson. The
survey before you shows the elevation at the
road, specifically at the northwest corner of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the property to be at 6.6 and the top of the
wall is at 8.6. So this is a 2-foot wall.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: The next thing I'd like
to address is the Defriese letter, which was
submitted to the Town, I guess, in the last
couple of days, October 19, 2010. I think Mr.
Kram has already indicated that, whether
explicitly or by implication, I suppose that
Mr. Defriese feels that if he can help defeat
this application he'd be able to go to Mr.
Kram and buy the property for a song because
he has already expressed an intent,
disappointment and even anger when he found
out that he was not able to purchase the
property and, in fact, it would be owned by
somebody else, but looking at his checklist of
items that he wanted to address, this lot is
just about 50-percent wetlands. That is
absolutely not true. We already know that the
DEC has determined that the wetland boundary
is at the 2-foot contour, which is literally
probably within 5 or 6 feet of where the mean
high water mark is. So it is probably less
than 10 percent wetlands and we are, of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
course, going for wetland permit and that is
the jurisdiction of the DEC and perhaps the
Town Board, but not this Board.
It shows, the next checklist there shows
a two-story structure at 1600 square feet,
that's obviously gross livable space. As you
know, we have an 800 -- I think just roughly
800 square feet on the first floor, and
roughly 800 square feet on the second floor.
The exact dimension is I believe 20 by 43 and
that takes advantage of the full width of the
lot and also recognized the smallest possible
dimension we can have as far as the depth of
the lot with the house on it. So I don't have
any comment on the second point.
Number three, ~every home around the lake
has a 35-foot setback and this would be an
eyesore and look like what is usually found in
a transient trailer park development." Well,
all I can say is that if you look at the --
that's an absolutely untrue statement. In
fact, Mr. Defriese came in and asked for a
variance so he can have the front of his house
extended into the setback. His rear yard is
only 8 feet from the water, which has clearly
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
required a variance by this Board and by DEC.
If you look at the aerial photo, which Mr.
Anderson prepared, you'll see the Papalezio
lot has a front yard setback of only 15 feet
and that in fact is pursuant to a variance
granted by this Board and that applies to the
front yard. I'm looking at the survey here
and I see numerous other lots where there is a
significant variance both in terms of the rear
yard and the front yard. In fact, in previous
applications and ruling on those applications
this Board has specifically said that this is
a old area with full substantially
nonconforming lots with numerous previous
variances granted.
So continuing with Mr. Defriese's letter,
the septic system would have a four ring
septic system and that is apparently what is
preliminarily designed within 25 feet of West
Lake. That is absolutely not true. It is
approximately 47 feet from the lake and it's
30 feet from the wetland boundary. So I don't
know what he was referring to there. The fact
that this area may or may not be in the FEMA
flood line is, of course, irrelevant because
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
that's something that Suffolk County
Department of Health Services will be
determining when they approve or disapprove
our application for sanitary.
It indicates that the plan shows the
septic tank to be within 5 feet of the road,
that is true. We are have the retaining wall
around it, as I indicated, both on the north
and the south and the west sides so that there
will be no leaching of any effluent in the
event of some sort of flood or high surge.
There will be no leaching into the wetlands or
into adjacent properties.
Referring to the Southold sweepstakes, I
think the only sweepstakes he's interested in
is the one where he's try to buy the property
from us if this Board turns us down and no
doubt either come in to expand his house or
build his own house on it. The fact that this
would be the most conforming lot that we know
of in the Southold Town is clearly erroneous
in that there are many other lots not only
here, but elsewhere in the town that were
prior nonconforming lots where relief has been
given to the homeowner
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
consistent with the Town Code.
The septic system to be erected in the
wetlands. As I've already indicated, DEC and
even that other survey that Mr. Terry referred
to both indicate that the septic system will
not be in the wetlands no matter whose
definition of that boundary line is used. So
I think the Defriese letter is purely being
done for the reason of just somebody who's
frustrated because he can't own the property
next to him.
The connection with the standard that
this application is subject to, and that this
Board must consider when granting it, is
whether an undesirable change will be produced
in the character of the neighborhood. As this
Board has previously stated most recently in
granting an application for Moy, 106 Mulberry
Street, Corp., which I think you know I'm
familiar with and on the Papalezio
application, on the Thiess application, on
Quinn, on Carol and all those application that
Mr. Anderson has put in, this development is
fully developed. They're all prior
nonconforming lots. Most of them, if not all
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
of them, don't comply and, in fact, the
reference to the fact of turning this place
into a trailer park is ludicrous because this,
as far as I can see, is the only buildable lot
left. I don't see any other buildable lot on
the lake that can be used and certainly in the
immediate area. So this is not have any
detrimental or windfall precedential affect on
anything else happening in the community.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you know about
the property next door that's on the corner?
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It also has a shed
on it.
MR. ROSENBERG: My understanding is that
there was a covenant and restriction put on at
the time they were given the wetland permit
and they have voluntarily agreed to restrict
their lot, which is the not the case, we
haven't. So that cannot be built upon because
there is a C&R filed against that property and
I believe that was the condition of the grant
of the dock permit, which was not a condition
when this dock permit was issued.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Two, whether the benefit sought by the
applicant could be (inaudible) by some method.
There is no other way we can make the
residential use of this lot, which is in fact
a permitted use, the only permitted use of
this lot, and we have taken -- whether this is
substantial or there's an alternative to do
it. We have kept the depth of the house at 20
feet. We have taken the full advantage of the
width of the lot by making the width 40 feet.
We cannot possibly make it any closer. In
fact, when the Defrieses came in and asked for
their original proposal of being 10 feet off
the road, this Board pushed -- wanted them to
go further back closer to the water. We don't
have that luxury here because of the practical
difficulty of our lot and its prior
nonconforming parcel. We cannot go any
further back, so there is no other way we can
locate any house on the structure other than
the minimum size house, which we have in fact
proposed. That goes to, of course whether
it's substantial and whether there is
alternative.
As to whether it's self-created, we
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
already have the title company's certification
that this was a buildable lot. It was a legal
lot. In fact, there was a building permit
issued in '67 for this lot and, therefore, it
was only the subsequent adoption of the
ordinance by this Town, which rendered this
lot unbuildable so, therefore, there is no
self-created hardship here.
As to whether or not it will have any
adverse affect on the physical or
environmental conditions, Mr. Anderson has
already indicated that the way the house has
been designed and during the construction and
the use of the house there should be no
adverse impact on the physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood
or in the zoning district.
So based upon the standard that Section
267B provide there is -- it seems to me
because of again the prior nonconforming
existence of this otherwise buildable lot that
my client can't be rendered absolutely no use
of this property as a residence and,
considering the small modest size of the house
and what we've proposed, I think that this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Board must grant the area variance.
I will say that you obviously are aware
of that we have applications pending before
the Suffolk County Department of Health
Services for sanitary so that is not an issue
before this board. We also have an
application pending before the DEC for the
wetlands permit, so that is not the issue
before the Board. We also have an application
before the Board of Trustees for a wetland
permit and, in fact, we were on the cusp of
having that hearing back in I believe it was
March when literally about four hours before
the hearing we were told we should come here
first.
So again, whether the wetland permit
issue is or is not to be considered, it's
certainly not to be considered by this Board,
this is strictly with the area variance for
the front yard for the difference between the
road and the front of the house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Well, only in so
far as one of the state statutes that we're
obligated to address in area variances has to
do with environmental impacts, as you well
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
know.
that
that
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I don't think
it's -- that I necessarily agree with
last statement that we have no concern
over environmental impacts. You would not
have hired an environmental consultant if
there were not issues related to environmental
impacts. As a matter of fact, I'm request,
counsel, that when you have time to do your
research and respond to all the various things
that have come up in this hearing and the
letters that have been submitted, that you
provide this Board with a complete copy of the
previous application to the DEC for a dwelling
and septic system so we have that as -- so we
do know that it's definitely from the DEC and
all of those questions are solved and we're
looking at the correct information on the same
property.
While you're talking about you say it's a
small house that you're proposing, let me ask
a question, how high are the pilings in order
to be FEMA compliant above grade? Perhaps
Bruce can answer that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. ROSENBERG:
elevation, I believe,
feet above grade.
UNIDENTIFIED:
MR. ROSENBERG:
The first floor
is be 11 feet or 13
12 feet.
12 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So 12 feet above --
MR. ANDERSON: No, no. 12 feet above sea
level, which is about 8 feet -- 12-plus puts
it about an 8-foot clearance underneath the
house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So the actual first
livable floor of the house on the proposed
two-story house is 8-feet above the road?
MR. ANDERSON: Right.
MR. ROSENBERG: Not above the road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the property,
which is pretty much level with the road.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The grade.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The grade of the
road.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then you're
proposing a two-story dwelling on top of that.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the total
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
overall height from grade to the ridge?
MR. ROSENBERG: We have not yet done full
building plans, but it will be less than the
35 feet required under the Code; we are not
looking for a variance. We are not looking
for a height variance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nevertheless, if
you're talking about something that's 35 feet
high or -- you know, 30 feet high, 32 feet
high, whatever that happens to be, if it's be
two stories it's be close to 35 probably, you
know, a few feet less maybe, 10 feet from the
road, that's a fairly substantial visual
impact. I'm not sure that one could conclude
that it's a small dwelling. Perhaps in terms
of square footage you might suggest that it is
that. Do you know the overall square footage?
MR. ANDERSON: The house immediately next
door is substantially larger, substantially a
greater volume, substantially has a higher
ridge, I believe.
MR. ROSENBERG: As does the Papalezzio
house which is 15 feet from the road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand. I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
just asking about what you're proposing. The
Board will determine how it sits within the
character of the neighborhood, but I just want
to get clear on what your actual proposals are
because it speaks to the issue that you
brought up about it being a small house. I
think it's 1600 square feet, you're proposing
a three bedroom house.
MR. ROSENBERG: Its roughly 800 -- it's
20 by 40 -- 43, so 806 feet I think on --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's 1600 square
feet and three bedrooms.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISNL~IN: And how many
bathrooms?
MR. ANDERSON: The floor plans are a part
of this record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ANDERSON: I believe it's two.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: I think also when
you're --
MR. ROSENBERG: while Mr.
looking at this, Mr. Kram has
I'd be happy to have him address the question
directly, is that the prior application made
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
to DEC was withdrawn.
Oh, the Trustee application, okay, that
was withdrawn.
MR. KR3~M: What we -- Steve Kram. When
we applied for the Trustees, Mr. Fitzgerald
may remember better than I cause he
represented me at the time, we applied to the
Trustees there were issues raised, questions
raised. At the time, we never -- I don't
think we ever even responded. I think the
application just kept getting postponed. I
never got a notice of denial. We never even
responded to any of the questions raised. I
think the application was abandoned.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. KRAM: I mean that's why we're
reapplying now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, well all of
that information is on laser fiche in the town
records. So it's available to you, to anyone.
MR. KRAM: As far as the question --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: For a moment, while
we're looking at this, while you're making
comparisons with other properties in the area
it is probably worth noting that the vast
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
majority, if not all of them, are bulkheaded.
They're built to be level and they're
bulkheaded. This property has never been
addressed in that way.
MR. ROSENBERG: No and also I think this
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And as a
consequence the contours of the land are very
different relative to drainage and to West
Lake.
MR. ROSENBERG: My recollection --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Saying that, it's
something we'll discuss further when we look
at the location of kind of straightening out
the issues of where the wetlands really are.
MR. ROSENBERG: My recollection, also
even this morning when I drove past the lot
again for about the third time, is that this
parcel seems to be somewhat less sloped or the
angle of the slope is less than a lot of the
other areas. In fact, looking at the plan
that was just presented I see the front
elevation in the northwest corner is 6.6 feet
and in the northeast corner 7.2 feet. So
going back to the 70 feet there's really only
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a change in average elevation of less than 7
feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Should this Board -
- we will continue, obviously, we're not
close this hearing, should the Board entertain
a residence on the property, would you be -- I
would like you to think about whether or not
you would accept alternative relief for the
size of the house.
for example.
MR. ROSENBERG:
One story in stead of two,
Madam Chairperson, if --
maybe I could have one or two and I haven't
spoken to -- so I'm just exploring what you're
suggesting. Would that by implication then
give us perhaps side yard variance or any -- I
mean you can't go any further back. So unless
we can still have some reasonable minimum
living space would that at least allow us to
go out to the sides more or would it perhaps -
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't know. I'm
just offering up the opportunity for you to
explore with your client and your
environmental consultant the possibility of a
smaller house.
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MR. ROSENBERG: One of the other things
that again I'm thinking because I understand
that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) a house
is even necessarily --
MR. ROSENBERG: At least the concern that
you had for the -- what would appear to be the
front elevation being particularly large in
view of the closeness of the road that perhaps
if we can even offset the second story, maybe
set the second story back a little bit with an
overhang over the first, which would at least
put an angle to the inclination to the
elevation to the house. If that's something
that can be done from an engineering point of
view, we may be able to make some preliminary
inquiries and find out if that can be done.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I only bring it up
because we often do in public hearings talk
about whether or not there are other ways of
conceptualizing how you approach this. I have
no answer and I have no opinion at the moment.
I'm just entering it into the record as an
option for you to think about between now and
the next time we talk.
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MR. ROSENBERG: The other thing is to
specifically answer the question you asked.
There are three bathrooms proposed in the
house. One in the master suite upstairs, one
full bath upstairs and then one bathroom
downstairs on the first floor, which I think
it only a half a bath. Right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
2-1/2 baths?
Okay.
Ail right, is there anyone in this
audience that would like to address this
application?
In the interest of time, we've take a
good deal of testimony, we will not be
this hearing so we can continue with
additional discussion and we do have -- we're
way behind. We've had two very, very long
hearings already.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I just say
something?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would entertain a
smaller building also.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So more food
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
for thought.
UNIDENTIFIED: (Indiscernible.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pardon? Well, I
want to see if there's anyone in the audience
right now. Well, if someone has taken time to
appear, you know, I don't -- it may not be
possible for them to appear at another hearing
and, as a courtesy to all parties concerned,
if there is anyone here who wants to address
this application, at this point, please come
forward and state your name. If not, then
fine. Then we'll calendar and we'll adjourn
to another date.
Do you have any questions at the moment?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
MEMBER HORNING: I asked mine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Okay. Hearing no
further reply from the audience or anyone
else, I'm make a motion to adjourn this
hearing to -- are we get it one for -- is
that enough time or do went to go to January?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You may want to
consider that you have to go to the Town Board
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
saying.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
That's what I'm
-- and we have to
give our -- if we hire a consultant they have
to have time to look at the prior (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, this is why I
asked that.
MR. ~2qDERSON: Before we adjourn can you
walk me through what the procedural
requirements are in hiring a consultant and
let us know what impact, input, and what our
responsibilities are as an applicant?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to do that, Jennifer?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that. I've talked too much.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: At
is nothing in our zoning code,
Sure. Do you want
Sure.
We'll let you do
this time there
ZBA rules that
allows the ZBA to hire a consultant, nor does
it address charging the applicant fees. So
this is something that the Town is doing. We
have to get permission from the Town Board to
do so and we have to pay for it ourselves.
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MR. ANDERSON: Well, I saw a memo already
submitted to JMO Consulting and to make it
easier upon you and you may relay this to the
Town Board, if you come back with estimates at
any time, number one, we would want the low
estimate --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You don't have to
pay for it, so I don't --
MR. ANDERSON: No, hear me out. Hear me
out. We are willing to pay for it, but we
want the low estimate.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MR. ANDERSON: And if you refer them to
my office, I'd like to review them.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay. We are
required under our procurement policy for
professional services to get two estimates, so
well try to do that.
MR. ROSENBERG: Counsel, I might suggest
again my review of the DEC letter, which
apparently you didn't have before that
technical staff has already determined where
the wetland boundary is. Perhaps if the Town
wants to save the money on that expense --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The Town Board may
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
very well decide that. We also have people in
Town Hall that can do this. We have Mark
Terry who has been trained to do wetlands
delineation, so it's up to them.
MR. ANDERSON: Under those circumstances,
then it would seem unnecessary. Why not send
Mark Terry out, since you've told us he's
trained to do this?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: He may. Again,
it's all a function of his work load and I
mean this is -- he's not assigned to do work
for the ZBA, so it may not be possible, given
his current work load and what he's working on
right now with the Town. Again, it's
ultimately up to the Town Board.
MR. ANDERSON: Didn't I just hear that
he's already put in information on this
application?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Relative to --
MR. ANDERSON: So he's already working
for the Zoning Board --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: He does all the
LWRP. He's the designated LWRP coordinator.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Once the wetlands
are flagged, he will, as LWRP coordinator,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
write his review.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That's one of his
tasks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whether it is
compliant or consistent or exempt or
inconsistent with recommendations.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's his full
time -- that is his job in Town Hall.
MR. ANDERSON: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He has the
qualifications to flag wetlands, but as
counsel pointed out, he may or may not be the
person the Town Board approaches. We have an
obligation to give them two estimates. We
will be doing this jointly with the Trustees
who made that request themselves, probably in
relationship to your pending permit to the
Trustees, because they're finding
discrepancies among the surveys, and so we'll
proceed with that on that basis and on that
basis I think we better calendar in January
simply because there may be a lot of going
back and forth and attempting to sort all of
this out.
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MR. ROSENBERG: Can we put it on for
December and then, if we don't have it, it can
always be postponed at that time?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think there's a
lot to do. You have a lot of homework to do.
We have tons of investigating to do. This is
not to shutdown the process or anything like
that, it's to make sure that we're doing it as
expeditiously, but as fully and responsibly as
we can.
MR. ROSENBERG:
hearing date?
When is the January
BOARD SECRETARY: It's a tentative date.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It has to be
confirmed because it's 2011, but it's January
6tn, it's very early in the year. That is what
our proposed date is.
MR. ROSENBERG: Okay, that will be fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's subject to
availability of the meeting hall and so on
before the Board. They have to fight that out
in the Clerk's office to make sure we can get
the space we need, this space on this date,
but that is what we propose.
MR. ROSENBERG: Madam Chairperson,
again,
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I assume that counsel or whoever refers this
back to the Board of Trustees for the hiring
of the surveyor or the flagger, suggests as an
alternative at least now that you have that
information from the DEC that it may be
academic.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That'll all be
presented to the Town Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it will and
what would also be very helpful in this
process is, if, in the interim, counsel, you
could provide to us in your due diligence the
complete copy of the previous application to
the DEC.
MR. ROSENBERG: I have that noted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very
much. Submit it to your office as soon as
it's available, prior to the next public
hearing.
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. I assume, if we
have to do a FOIL request for it, it may take
two or three weeks for it, maybe longer, with
the DEC, but we will start that process
quickly.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. Thank you
very much.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion to adjourn this hearing to January 6th
at 1:00, unless the date is changed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6424 - William Adams
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for Variance from Article III,
Code Section 280-13C, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's September 13, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval, concerning construction of an
accessory structure; proposed construction of
an art studio is not a permitted use, at:
1060 North View Dr., (adj. to Long Island
Sound) Orient, NY. SCTM#1000-13-1-2."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is someone here to
represent this application?
MR. RYALL: Hi, I'm Bill Ryall and I'm
the architect for the renovations as well as
for the whole project and the owners are here,
too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just ask
you, do you have any green cards?
MR. RYALL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Great. We need
those, thank you.
MR. RYALL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And to let you know
what we have in our records, a copy of the
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LWRP determination and Suffolk County
Planning. Do you have copies of that?
MR. RYALL: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we'll give
you a copy.
MR. RYALL: So I have the receipts, post
office receipts and for the three letters for
the adjoining property owners were mailed and
only one card came back yet from the Post
Office, but I also have three letters from the
adjoining property owners,
the project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
too, in support of
Okay. Enter those
into the record then. Let me just, before we
get started on your presentation of this
application, Bill, the LWRP -- Suffolk County
Planning basically remands this to local
determination. That's all that says and I'll
give you a copy of the LWRP. It is consistent
with the LWRP and the only recommendation that
they make is that the driveway be constructed
of pervious material.
MR. RYALL: Of course.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's an okay
thing with you, I presume.
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MR. RYALL: That's on the plans that we
filed and were approved by the Building
Department, actually.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA~: Okay, would you
like a copy of this for your record?
MR. RYALL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. RYALL: Okay, so owners of the house
-- the house is in the (Inaudible) section of
Orient and the owners are Alix and Bill who
are sitting back here, bought the house just
about less than a year ago, and there's an
existing house that's on the bluff and would
be too close by today's setbacks so we're just
renovating the existing house and then
building a painting studio for Bill, who's an
artist.
That's the accessory structure which is
setback so that there are no problems with
existing setback rules or size of construction
or property line setback. So we applied to
the Building Department at the beginning of
August and I applied for both the house
renovation and the studio at once. At least I
gave them the plans at the Building Department
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and they required us to separate the
application into two parts because of this
saying we need to get this variance for the
artist studio. So we have -- so we dealt with
that separately and we have the building
permit for the house renovation and that
permit came on August 27th from the Building
Department while we worked out this artist
studio and how to apply for it.
Well, actually we applied for it as an
artist studio and the Building Department
said, well, if you apply for it as a workshop,
not a studio, that's approved in the section
of the code wherever this is. So we said,
okay, we'll do that and then they said, well,
actually the horse is out of the gate and now
you have to get a variance because a studio is
not allowed and we said, well, we'll call it a
workshop. A workshop is where an artist works
and an artist calls it a studio, you call it a
workshop.
Anyway it was too late for that, so
that's why we're here. I'm not sure if we're
actually needing a variance or we just need
you to say that you approve accessory
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structures that are used by an artist. I
don't know. You know, it's not -- I don't see
it outside of the use. It's just becomes a
question of how you define the word workshop.
The Building Department said that if we would
just build a swimming pool, too, we could call
this building a pool house and there'd be no
problem with it, but we don't want a pool.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It looks like
semantics.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on. Okay, you can
hold on just a second because, you know, the
implication of an art studio is that you'll
have people there coming and looking at the
pictures. So that's what the Code, that's
what the artist's studio implies.
MR. RYALL: Oh, I see.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it's not really
something that hasn't been thought about.
MR. RYALL: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So the reason why they
said call it a workshop is if he's just go in
there, and not slop paint on canvas, but if
he's go there and ply his trade, but nobody
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is show up and he says that, then okay, maybe
we can think about it as workshop.
MR. RYALL: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so your insistence
on a studio to me implies something that you
may need to now tell us or we may need to
restrict it.
MR. RYALL: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's a few things we
can do that would probably still get you a
building in which this gentleman could do what
he would like to do.
MR. RYALL: Yeah, he's not running it as
a business with cars coming out and people
visiting like that. I mean there'd be no more
visitors coming for that then would come for
people living in their house to come and see
them.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean will he have
people driving up to look at his pictures,
will he be displaying his pictures there where
people will come and will he be having
showings?
MR. RYALL: Not a show. I would imagine
that someone might stop by once in a few
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months and take a look at what he's working
on, but you know it would be almost like a
friend pulling up their car and coming by to
see you because it's a place to work, it's not
his professional gallery for showing his art
and also I'm not insisting we call it a
studio. I actually tried to call it a
workshop, but I guess I didn't do that the
right day or we called it a studio and once we
changed our mind you can't
now. So here we are.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
call it a workshop
as opposed to
semantics, which is I think where we were
getting to.
MR. RYALL: Yeah, I understand the
difference.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think that
you're get from this Board that you're be
able to call that a studio.
MR. RYALL: Well,
artist works.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
its' really where the
Yeah.
MR. RYALL: That's what it is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well try to get --
MR. RYALL: He can't work in his existing
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house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, he could.
MR. RYALL: Well, you could but you need
a room to work in.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Code envisions that.
MR. RYALL: Right. And also, this
workshop or whatever you want to call it is --
it has a toilet and a sink and it has a work
a utility sink. It doesn't have a kitchen,
it doesn't have a shower or a bathtub, so I
mean there's no way anyone's live there.
So we have -- I wanted to say also that
on the plans that were approved for the
existing renovation the plans were checked,
which were approved, we need to -- it says to
comply with and check the Town Trustees and
the New York State DEC also. Well, the DEC
already wrote their letter saying no effect.
No effect for the (inaudible) and the Trustees
approved it, too, and so in other words, the
Building Department didn't ask for anything
from you on the renovations to the existing
structure, but I'm bringing this up because on
Friday, September 17tn one of the building
inspectors showed up and put an immediate stop
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work order on the construction of the
renovations of the house and then the next
morning on a Saturday morning two policemen
showed up to I suppose arrest anyone who was
working on the house. I don't know what else
they'd be doing there and the contractor said,
well, here are the plans. It approves this
work and, in fact, the part that the Building
Inspector was objecting to was a wooden deck
which had rot and the plan shows the deck to
be replaced in the same position, same size,
everything and he, based on that, he put an
immediate stop work order on the house and the
contractor showed the plans to the police
whose response was let's get outta here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay --
MR. RYALL: So he wrote another one on
Monday saying we have to go to the ZBA for
your permission.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we're
separate those two.
MR. RYALL: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just for the
record, for your information, the reason a
stop work order would have been placed on the
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deck was that it's not a conforming setback
and, if it is removed, then you don't
automatically have the right to replace it
with its pre-existing nonconformity without a
variance. That's why, even if you're
replacing it in kind, it's not --
MR. RYALL: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that's why that
happened.
MR. RYALL: Oh, we could have just put
that in for the variance. We didn't know that
because and the Building Department approved
the plan showing it being taken off and put
back on the same spot though.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, well we'll
get that one sorted out, but at the moment
let's look at this one. This is Ken's
decision, so I'd like to give him a chance to
ask some questions.
MR. RYALL: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, well Jim covered
the discrepancy between studio and workshop,
so we're , if we decide to grant this, we're
condition it as a workshop where there'd be no
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
retail sales and no public viewing of the
artwork. Okay?
MR. RYALL: Sure.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Now, if you refer to
your plans, the floor plan of the proposed
studio, there's a description of one room in
there called office.
MR. RYALL: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: An office is not a
permitted use in an accessory structure.
MR. RYALL: Right, okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So that would have to
be removed.
MR. RYALL: Well, again, how about really
an alcove with a desk and the wall of books
for reference.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What you do -- an
office is not a permitted use.
MR. RYALL: Right. Okay, so we'll change
that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, take that out
and let's see. I have no more questions right
now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I think that
pretty well covered it as long as we'll also
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
likely put on as a condition what you've
already attested to that this is not habitable
space. There are no sleeping quarters,
there's no cooking facilities --
MR. RYALL: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: -- and the like and
we will expect that you will be resubmitting a
plan making those changes in language to
reflect that it is --
MR. RYALL: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- a workshop for
an artist --
MR. RYALL: Right, absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and an alcove.
MR. RYALL: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How you furnish it
is not part of our jurisdiction, but
understand that the term office is really only
part of a principal dwelling.
MR. RYALL: No, I -- it sounds like
commercial stuff going on there that's not
what the point is at all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Is it seasonal use then,
also?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. RYALL: No, I think they'll use it
all year round. I mean actually this
structure and the renovations to the existing
structure will probably be to the highest
standard of energy efficiency of any building
on Long Island.
MEMBER HORNING: It'll have a heating
plant of some kind then?
MR. RYALL: It has the tiniest heater
imaginable, but it does have heat.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Primarily passive
solar.
MR. RYALL: It's actually -- technically
conforms to the European standard for passive
house, but they passive but, in fact, there is
an electric heater.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) wall.
MEMBER HORNING: In the workshop?
MR. RYALL: In the workshop and in the
existing house, too. Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: Two separate ones.
MR. RYALL: Totally, totally separate,
but it's the -- they do have a co~bined septic
system which has been approved by the Health
Department.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Might I just add, Bill,
one more thing out that there will also be no
private showings, private viewings.
MR. RYALL: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know what I mean,
the invitation-only type things, you know,
none of that.
MR. RYALL: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I don't want this
used in a residential area for this gentleman
to profit.
MR. RYALL: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand that he can
do his paintings and stuff there. There are
places where he can show his paintings. That
place is not in his house.
MR. RYALL: Well, yes, and you understand
it is very tight community with small -- well
this is large lot, but many are half acre and
the houses are not that far apart from each
other and we have a, you know, it's a private
subdivision so we're all very aware of what
each other is doing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's the reasons
why (inaudible).
MR. RYALL: And no one wants that kind of
traffic at all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you have
submitted letters of support from neighbors.
MR. RYALL: And it's to just saying no
objection, they actually say we are supporting
Bill and Alix's application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
those.
Ail right, is there
We'll get copies of
anyone else in the
audience who wishes to address this
application?
You need to enter your name, please.
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Alix
Pearlstein. I just wanted to address that and
that whatever the term is it has nothing to do
with bringing in people for selling at all.
It's really about a really private place just
to make paintings.
MEMBER DINIZIO: One question. The type
of material that you're using is it flammable
in any way? Is there a reason why it wouldn't
be desirable in a house?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MS. PEARLSTEIN: It's not flammable, but
it can smell a little bit.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just trying to --
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Yeah, but oil paints and
canvas and that's about it, pencils, pens,
charcoal, etc.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MEMBER HORi~ING: Is there a gallery where
they are shown?
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Yes. There's a gallery
in New York where they're shown, but this is
not about a gallery at all. I just wanted to
make that really, really clear. It's just a
place, a private place to make the paintings.
MEMBER HORNING: Those paintings are
shown in a gallery, people can buy them?
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Yes, in New York, but
not here. It's two entirely different
functions and the artist makes their work in
their workshop and then they go to another
place to be sold and to have people see them.
So it's really, I just really want to stress
it's really about being in a private place to
make work that's not disturbing anyone.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just want to say so
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you know then as just a workshop for an artist
there's no business activities conducted out
of this accessory structure.
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Absolutely. That's what
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The office will be
removed. There will be no public viewings, no
private viewings.
MS. PEARLSTEIN: No, we wouldn't want
that at all, that's not what it's for at all.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Very good.
MS. PEARLSTEIN: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Any other
comments?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close the hearing, reserve decision.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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174
ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6423 Elizabeth Lyons
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for Variance from Article III,
Code Section 280-15, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's August 26, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval, concerning construction of an
accessory garage; proposed location other than
the code required rear yard, at: 8680 New
(aka Fifth St.) (adj. to Great
New Suffolk, NY. SCTM#1000-117-
Suffolk Rd.
Peconic Bay)
10-12.2."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
your name for the record,
Hi, would you state
please?
MR. FITZGERALD: Jim Fitzgerald for Mrs.
Lyons.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we have all
the green cards. I just want to make you
aware of the fact that we have a letter from
the LWRP indicating the proposal is consistent
requiring the installation -- this is their
recommendation -- of gutters, leaders and
drywells for stormwater collection and that we
have a letter from Suffolk County indicating
local determination.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: I have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have copies
or would you like them?
MR. FITZGERALD: I'd like copies.
When we submitted this it seemed like a
very straightforward and simple application
both for you and for us,
several days, Mr. Lyons,
contacted by Mr. Brusco,
but within the last
son of Mrs. Lyons was
a neighbor to the
north and to the west, and asked if the
proposed structure could be moved to make it
better from the standpoint of the northerly
property to maintain a semblance of a view of
the waterfront and the Peconic Bay area and my
client is willing to do that. The problem is,
for us, that it puts the -- would put the
structure intruding into the front yard
setback, which was okay the way we submitted
it originally at 40 feet.
From the standpoint of the Lyons, it is
okay, they're willing to make these
accommodations, but the question then becomes
how do we here deal with the change, which
appears to add another variance required and
the immediate question is to discuss it now.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Shall we simply adjourn this meeting to
another time or do we have to go back and
start all over again from the beginning?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Fitzgerald, how
far forward are you talking about moving it?
Toward Fifth Street?
MR. FITZGERALD: May I?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. FITZGERALD: Whatever it is I would
need to (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Right.
As long as you don't set off all of our
microphones like you do sometimes.
MR. FITZGEHALD: It's setback 40 feet
now, which is the required setback so that any
movement toward the road, which is part of the
request of the neighbor, makes it vulnerable
to another --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, which
neighbor, this one or that one?
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it's the same,
this is Mr. and Mrs. of the same
mister who happens to be here is
made the request. Mr. Brusco.
MEMBER HORNING:
family. This
the one that
It doesn't seem to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
affect the line of sight at all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It sure looks like
it.
MR. FITZGERALD: He's asking that we move
it closer to the house and closer this way --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, this is a
conforming side yard. 20 feet is a conforming
side yard.
MEMBER HORNING: What do you have in
writing from him?
MR. FITZGERALD: Pardon me?
MEMBER HORNING: What do you have in
writing from him? Can you submit it?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's here, so he
can testify. It's all right, he's here.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: He can explain that to
you. Shall we do that right now?
CFIAIRPERSON WEISMkN: Sure, why don't we
do that?
MR. BRUSCO: Thank you. Joseph Brusco --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name, please, sir?
MR. BRUSCO: B-R-U-S-C-O.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. BRUSCO: After speaking to Mr. Lyons
this morning, they had agreed to move the
structure 5 feet further away from our
property and closer to their house and also
instead of a 40-foot setback from the street,
a 30-foot setback from the street.
MEMBER HORNING: Then they would have to
go and get a revised Notice of Disapproval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup. We'll have to
re-notice it, we'll have to re-advertise it
because we right now have a legal notice that
refers only to a location in the side yard
whereas a, you know, on waterfront property a
front yard is conforming. So we would have to
take this -- there's have to be a lot of
steps involved.
If it was still in the side yard and you
moved it somewhat, then we won't have to re-
notice it because it's still a side yard, but
the problem is that you would then -- if you
want it moved toward Fifth Street, then it
doesn't have a conforming setback anymore. So
then we need another variance for that.
Honestly, where -- do you have -- I
noticed some children's play equipment and so
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
on up there on that property.
MR. BRUSCO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't know if I
saw a dwelling. Is there a dwelling also?
MR. BRUSCO: No, there's not.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. So
essentially the view that you're concerned
about is from that play area.
MR. BRUSCO: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you're okay,
you own the house that would be to the west,
correct?
MR. BRUSCO: Yes, that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you want --
what yard did you want moved, from the west or
from the northerly?
MR. BRUSCO: They agreed to move it 5
feet closer to their house as well as a 30-
foot setback from the street as opposed to 40-
foot. I believe he has it redrawn in red
right there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, good. We
have copies for everybody.
MEMBER HORNING: Our job is to grant
minimum variance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Thank you, George.
MEMBER HORNING: Not increase the number
of variances. The applicant maybe would do
that for you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't see any major
change in moving it this much.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, can I -- these
people could put that building, I believe, 10
feet away from your property line right now
and not even need a variance. Do you concur,
Mr. Fitzgerald?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think he
heard you, Jim.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You could build this
structure here and not even need a variance,
10 feet away from that property line. You
could, am I right?
MR. FITZGERALD: From the standpoint of -
MEMBER DINIZIO:
structure, right.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
being very generous
in my opinion.
Being an accessory
Yes.
Right, so I mean you're
in making it at 35 feet,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).
MR. LYONS: Good afternoon. Daniel Lyons
on behalf of my mother, Elizabeth Lyons.
If I could just explain a little bit,
it'll I think shed some light on what we're
trying to do here. We want to put -- I
understand your point and I'm trying to
accommodate my neighbors as much as I can. I
think we're both be there hopefully for many,
many years together and the potential view
from Mr. Brusco's lot to the north of us, if
he ever was to build a house there, would
really be on the western side of that, if I
were to put it legally 10 feet away from his
lot, that would be catastrophic to any view
from behind.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But you've thought about
this, right?
MR. LYONS: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You would not need a
variance to do this.
MR. LYONS: Correct, yeah. That's why we
stuck it immediately behind the existing house
figuring there wouldn't be much difference.
Then when you stand up there -- when you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
actually on the property you can see how it's
a little more disturbing. So we said sure we
can move it 5 feet closer. The only problem
is that when it gets 5 feet closer to our
house the rear windows -- it's very close.
Then we said can we please move it 10 feet
closer to the street so when you look out the
back bedroom window you're not right on top of
the garage.
MEMBER HORNING: Have you considered
attaching it to the house?
MR. LYONS: We had considered attaching
it and decided against that because the two
main bedrooms of the house are against that
back northerly wall and we would lose those
windows. We'd lose any cross-ventilation.
We'd lose a lot of natural light. The expense
was greater. We have an external staircase
down to the basement that we would lose, so we
decided against
reasons.
One of the
that for expense and other
things I did this morning, and
if you look at the aerial photo available
there, you can see the common thing in this
neighborhood is to have many, many garages and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
accessory structures that are 10 or 15 feet
from the road. The neighbors two houses to
the east you can see a large house on the bay
and then a smaller garage and if I can
approach there are some photographs of some
adjacent and nearby properties that have
garages and other accessory structures that
are within one car length of the road, however
long that might be.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, sir, are you
advocating or proposing then that you want to
revise your plan to go with this one that was
handed to us and an amended Notice of
Disapproval?
MR. LYONS: Yeah.
start all over again if
I mean I'm willing to
I got some preliminary
read that
If the 30
obviously,
like we're not asking for too much.
feet would be considered -- and,
there's nothing binding, but if we
had some indication that the Board would be
willing to give that type of setback, then I'd
be willing to start over again. If that's
what we have to do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what it means
is that you would then have a Notice of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Disapproval saying partially in the side yard
because it -- well, no. You're absolutely
parallel, I guess you're actually parallel to
the front, so it would be two variances
instead of one. It would be in the side
yard. The front yard setback variance of 30
feet where the Code requires 40.
MR. LYON: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, there would
be an additional fee because there's two
variances and we will have to re-notice and go
through the process again. Typically, the
Board, as Mr. Horning pointed out, we would
want to not create more nonconformity than was
reasonable and, even though you're absolutely
right, I know all of us are familiar with this
neighborhood.
MR. LYONS: Right. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There are many
nonconforming accessory structures in the
area, but for us to take new construction and
create a greater nonconformity than what is
required, I feel ambivalent about it. In some
ways, it's no big deal, really. If you want
to try to accommodate your neighbor and you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
willing to go through all this rigamarole,
I'll let the other board members speak for
themselves.
MR. LYONS: Yeah, there's a big tree
line. Just also to note, there's 30 feet of
trees and hedges between that part of the yard
and the road. So even at 30 feet this is --
it can't even be viewed from the street
anyway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. I noticed
that when we were out at the site. There's
high hedge all the way across.
MR. LYONS: Yeah. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you will view
it. It's a 22-foot high structure.
MR. LYONS: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As proposed.
MR. LYONS: Yeah, I think those hedges at
this point may be higher, but in any event,
yeah, I mean I'd be willing to go through that
just to keep everybody happy, if, you know,
there's some indication that that's not
completely unreasonable and the neighbors are
supportive of it, then we could go 5 feet
closer to the house and 10 feet closer to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
road.
MEMBER HORNING: It's unfortunate you
didn't present this plan originally.
MR. LYON: Absolutely and it was kind of
a, you know, I think I spoke to Mr.
Fitzgerald, it said somewhere in here on page
2 or 3, that it was be several months and so
I never even really talked to my neighbors
about it and then all of a sudden the hearing
came up, which was much quicker, which is fine
for me, but it was somewhat my fault that we
didn't get a chance to speak to all the
neighbors in advance cause I thought this
hearing would be much later and then all of a
sudden it was just the week before that we
really got to talk to everybody and Mr. Brusco
made these requests, which I think are
reasonable requests, and the point is if it
goes closer to our house we kind of want it
moved away a little bit towards the road
because there's one set of windows that would
be significantly blocked. That's the reason
why the two requests go somewhat hand in hand.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And let's just go
for a moment to the rest of this accessory
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
structure as proposed. Any heat?
MR. LYON: No heat.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No heat.
Unfinished?
MR. LYON: Unfinished.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just storage on the
second floor?
MR. LYON: Just
floor. I would like
storage on the second
-- my mother has a bunch
of -- comes from a family of seven children
and kinda has custody of all the family
photographs and, at one point, she had some in
an attic and it got humid stuck together, so
she does want to have air conditioning, if
that would be permissible.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In a window?
MR. LYON: I think, depending on the
builder and the cost they were talking about a
central air, but no heat.
that's allowed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. LYON: No, okay,
windows.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Central air, if
No.
we'll just do
I wouldn't think so
not with a full second story because you know
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once you're starting to install --
MR. LYON: Yeah, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you've got a
finished space. You have a habitable space.
If there's duct work in there, if it says for
the air conditioning then it can be centrally
heated like that and it becomes a whole other
proposition.
MR. LYON: Okay.
do it with a window,
Ail right, we'll just
that's fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's nothing to
say you can't put electric in there and that
you can't put in a window air conditioner, you
know, if you need it seasonally.
MR. LYONS: Right, okay. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just thought
while you're here already we should explore
all of the issues associated with this --
MR. LYONS: Right. Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- so we don't have
to revisit them again and hold it up any
further.
MR. LYONS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What does the Board
want to do, do you want to --
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MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to comment
further.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please do.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know that I'm sticking
on this, but I think I have to, quite
honestly, cause the law is the law. You're
asking us to grant you well over 100 percent
variance because you could take this building
and build it in your rear yard and not need a
variance. You're asking us to take this thing
-- I mean that's why I asked.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not a 22-foot high,
18 feet.
MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry, that's the
problem. The height we're proposing, needing
the 20-foot setback.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right. If it
was --
MR.
yard.
FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) for the side
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If it was 18 feet
high --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you're asking
for 35.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, if it was 18
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feet high then the setback is smaller.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you're asking for a
50-percent variance or maybe a little less. I
guess what my problem is just because, you
know, I don't want to sound callus, but the
rules are the rules and we're supposed to
grant the minimum, like Mr. Horning said, and
you're asking us for a lot more than just the
minimum and now you're asking us to also
intrude on the Town setback, which is the
street basically. We're trying to maintain
the same setback as other houses. I know that
this is a very old area. I was just actually
working down there on Third Street yesterday,
and I realize that, but at the same token
you're asking us to push it because a neighbor
doesn't want to look at it, you're asking the
town to look at it basically and you're asking
for much more of a variance
is needed.
My preference would be
than I think that
that you just
leave it where it is. I thought that was
reasonable, it aligns with the house. The
setbacks on the side yard are all aligned.
is essentially almost as though it were one
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house. Certainly that side yard or that 20-
foot setback meets the code, you're well
within it and I do understand the reason why
you'd want to separate it because you have a
house that already exists that has bedrooms
that need windows and I could certainly -
that's certainly an excuse for building it
where you propose to build it, but going from
40 to 30 on the front yard when you've already
gone from 20 to 35 in the rear yard, you know,
for me that's a stretch when we're looking at
the Code, but I'm one person on the Board,
just so you know, okay.
MR. LYONS: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have to
say.
MR. LYONS: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I think we should
eliminate the extra variance. I don't think
we need to do that. I think what was
originally proposed is the best scenario for
what you want to build here.
MEMBER HORNING: I would agree with that.
MR. LYONS: Is it persuasive that even
immediately next door and then one and two
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houses away there's similar accessory
structures that are much closer to the road?
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, what you need to do
is withdraw your application in some fashion
and reapply --
MR. LYONS: Okay. Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: -- with the different
setbacks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: That is a choice --
MR. LYONS: Yeah, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA~: -- but I also hear
this Board saying that in having before us an
application that requires one variance and
then coming back with an application that will
require two, despite the fact that you could
make an argument that there are plenty of
accessory structures in side yards that are
nonconforming yards, a number of them are pre-
existing, a number of them are quite old, and
so when you have a situation like that that's
what it is and it may be part of the character
of the neighborhood, but for the Board to kind
of support creating more variances than the
smallest number required in order to grant you
a nonconforming location is simply counter
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
what the state statutes require of us. In
fact, in our decisions one of the criteria
that we have to include in the decisions,
which you will read, is this is the minimum
necessary in order for the applicant to enjoy
the benefit of an accessory garage in a side
yard. So I don't know how we could say it
would be the minimum when if you came in with
this we probably would say push it back.
MR. LYONS: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And eliminate one
variance. I mean we have typically done that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There is no
guarantee, so if you reapply that we won't do
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If it's important
enough for you to go ahead and withdraw the
application and come back with an alternative,
that's your prerogative, but we are also
prepared I think to close
rule upon as applied for.
MR. LYONS: So the 5
this hearing and to
feet closer to our
existing house is not a problem --
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MR. LYONS: -- from your point of view.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, because that's
a side. It's still in the side yard.
MR. LYONS: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 20 feet is a conforming
setback.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. So if you
want to make it 25 feet and still be in the
side yard, that's not a problem.
MR. LYONS: Okay, all right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If you want to let
us know you want to do that, then we will
write --
ASST. TOWN ATTOP/qEY: They're not before
us for that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We don't have to worry
about that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, they're only
before us for --
MR. LYONS: It's not a variance I'm
asking for.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's still at 20 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, so --
MR. LYONS: All right, can I just talk to
Jim for a second?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You know, there's a
swing set back there, there's no building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're talking
about a future house.
MEMBER HORNING: There's no detriment to
the neighborhood.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our job is not to
preserve views, that's not part of the --
unless it's a scenic view shed.
MR. FITZGERALD:
speech?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
scares me.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well,
May I make a little
Brief. Speech
this is and
perhaps you can dissuade me of this mindset
that I have. The objective of the Zoning
Board of Appeals, it seems to me, is to
protect the character of the town and the
neighborhoods and what have you. Based upon
the things that you all have said now, it
seems to me that what you are doing is
protecting the Town Code. When people drive
down the road in New Suffolk and they see this
garage, wherever it ends up being, they're
see the garage, they're see the neighborhood.
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They're not see the code. They're not know
whether or not it was a minimum variance and
less than minimum and the question then, of
course, in my mind at least, becomes what is
necessary and I think my impression is that
what is necessary is what the homeowner wants.
To him, that is the necessity of this
particular application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That may be his
personal choice, but that doesn't necessarily
mean -- we are obliged to follow state
statutes and those statutes talk about the
greatest conformity possible, all right. Now,
I -- it is not just to protect the character
of the neighborhood, it's to make sure that
any variances we grant have no adverse impact
on the character of the neighborhood.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our mandate is not
in those statutes to preserve views for
potential future houses. If neighbors can
work something out, fine. We have no
objection to that, but unless it's a scenic
view shed that would fall under the LWRP, that
is a secondary issue. Our greater concern are
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the setbacks that you're proposing and right
now the only variance is the side yard
location and so to create an additional
variance I think you're hearing loud and clear
why this Board is attempting to adhere to the
Code to the greatest extent possible while
granting the applicant a variance for a
nonconforming location.
MEMBER HORNING: Leslie, can we entertain
this revised marked up site plan and keep the
same Notice of Disapproval or do we have to --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we can't.
MEMBER HORNING: So if --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not what was
advertised.
MEMBER HORNING: -- the applicant wants
to get a revised Notice of Disapproval, submit
revised site plan, you know, just like you
have, I would advise you to get all the
written comments from your neighbors in favor
of your new plan and saying this is the
compelling reason why we need to have a front
yard setback now because our neighbors think
it will be detrimental to the neighborhood to
put it in a more conforming place.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. LYONS: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's no guarantee
that --
MEMBER HORNING: Well, no, but I mean
that's his best bet if that's what he wants to
do.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: right, right.
MR. LYONS: Yeah, I mean I'd like to go -
I mean I'll do whatever if there's some shot
at keeping everybody in the community happy.
I think that's probably the best way for me to
go. Where does that put us? Back here at the
next meeting or how long would that look like?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We could put it on
for the month of December.
BOARD SECRETARY: It depends on the
Building Department.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it depends on
how fast they (inaudible). We can --
MR. LYONS: Yeah, I mean you got that
within a week last time. Right?
MR. FITZGERALD: What?
MR. LYONS: The disapproval from the
Building Department is pretty fast.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You'll have to get
a revised survey showing the new proposed
location.
MR. LYONS: Okay, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You'll have to get
another Notice of Disapproval. We have to
have time to advertise it. You have to have
time to send out mailings. It's December 2nd
the next --
MR. LYONS: Okay, so I think if we jump
on that we got six weeks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you sure that's
what you want to do?
MR. LYONS: Yeah. So put it over to
December.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, then why
don't we, I guess we'll consider this
application withdrawn. We'll close this
hearing and we won't make a determination
because you're substantially in effect
withdrawing this application; is that correct?
MR. FITZGERALD: Is that correct?
MR. LYONS: Yeah, we'll withdraw this and
I'll apply for the new one 10 feet closer to
the road and I'll submit what other evidence I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
can gather in support of that application.
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so would you
please submit to us in writing your formal
request to withdraw this application?
MR. LYONS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And then what we
will do is, as soon as you have all of the
stuff for the new application, we'll put you
on the calendar as fast as we possibly can and
if we get --
(TAPE CHANGE)
2nd of December, we're happy to do
-- the
that.
MR. LYONS: Yeah, I'm trying to do
whatever is least offensive to the neighbors
and the town in general. I don't want to
offend the Code or anything else, I'm just
trying to keep it in the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail I'm saying is
that you've been given some background on the
attitude and operation of the Board.
MR. LYONS: Right. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And if you want to
proceed on that basis, knowing that unless
there is some extremely compelling evidence
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
submitted as to why two variances are
required, you may well have a granting of
alternative relief, which requires you to put
it back --
MR. LYONS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- pretty much in
the side yard with a conforming front yard.
If you --
MR. LYONS: Okay. All right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- want to go to
through that, I can't guarantee because we
have to see your application and what your
evidence is.
MR. LYONS: Yeah. All right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And we'll give you
every fair opportunity to present your case
fully.
MR. LYONS: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'll take
that step. I'm not going build anything now
anyway.
MEMBER HORNING: Letters of support from
your neighbors in support of your new plan.
MR. LYONS: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's not a
guarantee.
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MEMBER HORNING: It's not a guarantee no,
but I mean --
MR. LYONS: Not it's not, but it's --
yeah. Neighbors outside of the people that
touch my property or community letters; it
doesn't matter? Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Whatever you --
whatever support you can garner.
MR. LYONS: All right. Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know what, it'd be
faster, you know, I pay very little attention
to the neighbors --
MR. LYONS: Ail
MEMBER DINIZIO:
right.
-- especially in this
instance because, quite honestly, it's not up
to the neighbors.
MR. LYONS: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's up to what you're
allowed to do on that piece of property --
MR. LYONS: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and how far the Board
is willing to go in granting it.
MR. LYONS: Right. Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. LYONS: Okay. Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right. Hearing
no further comments, I'll make a motion to
close this hearing. We are not reserving
decision because we're not deciding, but this
is subject to receipt of a letter requesting
withdrawal of the application.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6428 - Carrie Tintle
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for Variance from Article XXII,
Code Section 280-116, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's September 23, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval, concerning second story addition
to a single family dwelling at less than the
code required setback to a bulkhead of 75
feet, at: 1235 Lupton Point Rd., (adj. to
Deep Hole Creek)
115-11-8."
MR. GOLFO:
Mattituck, NY. SCTM#1000-
Good afternoon. My name is
Tony Golfo, I'm the contractor for the
project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name, please?
MR. GOLFO: G-O-L-F-O.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Are you
aware that we have a letter from the LWRP
coordinator indicating that this is exempt?
"It is a minor action that is exempt from the
LWRP" --
MR. GOLFO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and that we,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Suffolk County determines it's
determination. Would you like
your file?
local
copies just for
MR. GOLFO: Yeah, sure. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It has no adverse
impact at all by what you're doing, in other
words, it's fine by them.
MR. GOLFO: Basically I'm here to answer
any questions that you may have on this.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
want to do.
MR. GOLFO: It's a
Yeah, tell us what you
second floor bathroom
above an existing bedroom.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. GOLFO: So we're not changing the
footprint at all. It's the only place we can
put it without having to go for other
variances.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And the proposed work
is landward of the existing home --
MR. GOLFO: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- compared to the
bulkhead?
MR. GOLFO:
believe, it's 60
Yes. Right now we're, I
or 50-something feet from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
bulkhead, we're supposed to be 75.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. No further
questions from me. Anybody else?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want to
mention that I have a -- had the Code been
written so that setbacks for additions or
structures landward of an existing house on a
bulkheaded property, had it included the idea
of additions or structures as it does on
bluffs, you wouldn't be before us.
You have no nonconformities that you're
creating as a result of the second story
addition. The only nonconformity is the
bulkhead setback of 56.9. Your house is
setback at 42.5 and that is something we're
look at in terms of clarifying the Code
because this is a very simple situation. I
have no problems with it and no questions and
I think the Building Inspector interpreted the
Code strictly in this situation and I just
wanted you to be aware of that.
MR. GOLFO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean I personally
would like to see our decision expedited as
quickly as possible so you can proceed with
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your construction.
MR. GOLFO: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're welcome.
MEMBER HORNING: One brief question for
When was the existing house
I don't know. I
originally around --
Give us an approximate
the record.
built?
MR. GOLFO: Oh God,
think it was moved there
MEMBER HORNING:
year?
MR. GOLFO: '40s.
MEMBER HORNING: Pre-code, pre-zoning?
MR. GOLFO: Oh yes. I would think so,
yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: He's got
card. There's a permit (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's old.
very old.
MR. GOLFO: The structure itself,
taking apart the inside, is very old.
a tax
It's
we're
MEMBER DINIZIO: The reason you're before
us is because of a decision that the -- an
interpretation that the ZBA made and they
still haven't done that yet, which is called
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the Walz decision. That should have been
quoted in this Notice of Disapproval. It
seems that they're getting a little lax on
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have to say, Jim,
with all due respect, I had a discussion with
Mike Verity about this interpretation cause I
wanted to understand why and he said clearly
they are not creating any new nonconformity.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They're building in a
nonconforming area --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, they're not.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in other words --
yes. They're supposed to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not according to
the Building Department, so --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly, that's why
they did it, it's obvious,
of Disapproval. Okay --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the way the Code is written.
to do with Walz.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it
here's the Notice
No, it's because of
It has nothing
certainly does.
We've never -- listen. I've been on the Board
for 20-some-odd years, Leslie.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the Walz
decision is not that old.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I see that things --
yes, I agree with you it's not that old. It
was 2001. Now, quite honestly, this is when
we started getting these types of variances.
It used to be you just go to the Building
Department and put your bathroom up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, I know.
I know.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It was done. Okay, so
you could talk to Mike all you want. You have
to read the Notice of Disapproval and the
reason why (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we are
supposed to be reacting to the Notice of
Disapproval --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you 100
percent.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_~N: -- and that's what
we're doing. Okay, the Building Department
made its determination.
Is there anyone in the audience who would
like to speak to this application?
Hearing no further comments, I'd like to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
make a motion to close the hearing,
decision.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
(See Minutes
reserve
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6426 - Mark and Sharon Melnick
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
"Request for Variance from Article III,
Code Section 280-15, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's September 23, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval, concerning proposed accessory
garage at 1) less than the code required front
yard setback of 35 feet both front yards, 2)
less than the code required side yard setback
of 20 feet at: 405 Private Rd. #3 and ROW,
(adj. to Jockey Creek), Southold, NY.
SCTM#1000-70-6-15."
Is there someone here to address this
application?
MR. SIRICO: Yes. I'm Michael Sirico,
I'm his agent or contractor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Do you have
a copy of the LWRP, Suffolk County Planning
and are you aware of letters from the
neighbors?
MR. SIRICO: Yes, I'm aware of the
letters from the neighbors. I might not have
all the copies of the LW -- whatever you have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see. Well,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
let's just enter into the record that the
LWRP, and I'll give you copies, the LWRP
indicates that this is a minor action that is
exempt from review and Suffolk County is local
determination and then we have two letters in
the record.
BOARD SECRETARY: Three letters.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Three letters. Do
you have three letters from neighbors?
MR. SIRICO: No. I only have one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have one and
who would that be from?
MR. SIRICO: Elizabeth (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let me give
you copies of one from Patricia, it looks like
B-U-E-R-K-L-E, Buerkle, maybe, and Carol Simon
and Charles Hardy, so that you can address
those as well.
MR. $IRICO: I also have the owners here
today also, if there are any questions they
can answer.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Good, thank
you.
Ail right, so let's start out with
acknowledging that we have received on October
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13th an amended Notice of Disapproval that
includes the size of the garage.
MR. SIRICO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so you're
aware of that, you know all about that.
MR. SIRICO: Yes, I am.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so we can
certainly take testimony today, but we will
need to re-notice this because the -- and
adjourn this to another date because the
garage -- this was not part of the original
notice.
So we're going have to go through that
process through the office; however, let's --
let's see if there are people here in the
audience who want to make some comments about
this application?
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
to a later date.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Leslie.
BOARD SECRETARY:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Not if it's adjourned
I think we should,
Just adjourn it?
Let's just get -- unless
it --
someone wants to say something about
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: -- then just adjourn it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I will.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, don't have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why I'm
asking if anybody wanted to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't have any testimony
from this gentleman, all right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I just wanted
to make sure that if people that were here
that wanted to make a comment on what was
before us had the opportunity to do so. So if
no one wants to make comments, we will adjourn
since we have to adjourn and re-notice anyway
rather than taking time for testimony today,
we'll continue to pursue it.
I think we can put it on for December 2nd
at -- what time, 12:307 No, we just did one
at 1, 2:00. Okay?
MR. SIRICO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we'll -- I'll
make a motion to adjourn this hearing subject
to re-notification based on an amended Notice
of Disapproval to December 2nd at 2:00.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6425 - Thomas V. Perillo, Jr.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variance from Article III,
Code Section 280-15, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's September 23, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval, concerning proposed accessory
garage at less than the code required side
yard setback of 10 feet, at: 1410 Great
Peconic Bay Blvd., Laurel, NY. SCTM#1000-145-
2-17.2."
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just see
what we have here. We have no LWRP letter,
and we have local determination from Suffolk
County.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: It was
very briefly I know that
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
name for the record.
Okay.
in this case, just
Please state your
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf of
Mr. and Mrs. Perillo. This is one where we
submitted the plan, but did not realize, and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
my fault as well, I did not realize that the
garage was partially in the side yard. So we
had the setback appropriately identified of 5-
foot from the property line, but it is in the
side yard. So I just received by fax, it may
have come yesterday or sometime earlier today,
the amended Notice of Disapproval. So we have
it, but I don't know if you have it yet.
BOARD SECRETARY: We do. We have it.
MRS. MOORE: You have it now?
BOARD SECRETARY: Yup.
MRS. MOORE: Oh good. Okay, so now that
I have it, I'll submit -- if you'd like any
additional paperwork with respect to this.
BOARD SECRETARY: You have to re-mail,
re-notify, everything.
MRS. MOORE: It's fine. I mean we -- we
know.
BOARD SECRETARY: Is it a survey that
they gave you; you're going to revise the
survey?
MRS. MOORE: I have the survey, that's
how I got the Notice of Disapproval. So I
have that already.
BOARD SECRETARY: Whatever we don't --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
all we have --
MRS. MOORE: I'll bring you up to speed
with --
BOARD SECRETARY: -- the amended Notice
of Disapproval is all we have.
MRS. MOORE:
with the survey.
BOARD SECRETARY:
MRS. MOORE: It
Notice.
BOARD SECRETARY:
-- the amended disapproval
Good.
should be attached to the
It wasn't.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, fine I will submit it.
It's not a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: So that's it. We're just
adjourning to what date?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Did the steps put it
in the side yard; is that what it was?
MRS. MOORE: There is -- yeah, there is
an addition -- a small addition and the deck -
- the patio is elevated, so the patio would
have exceeded, it would have been the
equivalent of a deck.
house shows --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Plus there is an -- the
I was there, okay.
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MRS. MOORE: I didn't bring my whole file
with me, but --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's all right. I,
well is was just wondering. I thought maybe
it was just the steps that did that.
MRS. MOORE: That portion here, oh, it is
partially the steps. It's actually been moved
back (inaudible) where the shed is.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, oh. Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We can address that when
we get the --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just have one comment
(inaudible). This plan here --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, had the correct
location.
MEMBER DINIZIO: This has the correct
one?
MRS. MOORE: That has the correct
location. The survey was not correct and it
was --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Was not correct. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: My client did not realize
that the surveyor had given me the wrong
drawing and I thought the architect did not,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you know, since I got it in person from the
client, until I scaped it, my client said it's
on the right location. I said, what are you
talking about? So we corrected everything to
make it -- so you'll be getting a survey that
conforms with the architect's plan that's
already in the file. So we'll have everything
that matches.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, we're
put you on, I'm make a motion to -- is there
anyone here wanting to address this?
I'm going to make a motion to adjourn
this to Dece~ber 2nd at 2:30; is there a
second?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
sir.
record, please?
MR. McNAMARA:
HEARING #6393 Harriet McNamara
McNamara Family Trust
(adjourned from 7/29/10)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good afternoon,
Would you state your name for the
Terrance McNamara.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
you like to tell us?
MR. McNAMAHA: Well,
Okay and what would
we had initially
decided to do the additions because of some
family matters, but unfortunately matters have
now taken a different turn. So we are not
interested in pursuing an addition in any way,
shape or form. So the only thing that was
left from the initial application was the
location of a previously built shed with
setback, the setback was incorrect, so that's
the only variance that we're actually applying
for.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I believe we
received that in writing.
MR. McNAMARA: Yes, you did.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we're talking
about an as-built shed, which is about 12-foot
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
by 8-foot in size at a 5-foot front yard
setback from the road and the Code requires 35
foot.
MR. McNAM3tRA: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, when was this
shed built?
MR. McNAMARA: It was in the early 90s.
It was recently resided.
MEMBER HORNING: Do we need a revised
notice this time or no?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not really because
it was part of the application.
MR. McNAMAHA: It was part of the notice,
we were asking for more and now --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're asking for
less, so we don't have to re-notice it or
anything.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can carry on.
MEMBER HORNING: Maybe we'll ask, can we
ask why you are not pursuing your addition?
MR. McNAMARA: Yeah, well, see we thought
my mom would be staying with us, but quite
honestly what happened during the summer is
she just turned as she got out of bed to get
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the phone and her femur snapped and then we
went through all that and within three weeks
they told us there was just no hope with any
of that. So we'll just keep her in her own
home with a companion and, you know, it's not
going to change, and my own family, the
children all said we really don't need any of
that and so -- we really don't need any of it.
We're pretty comfortable where we are. So
that's why it was ultimately we decided not to
bother. It was a lot of effort for really no
real benefit. That's where we left it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. How is this
shed being used currently?
MR. McNAMAP~A: It's used to store things.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there any heat
in it?
MR. McNAMARA: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's make
sure we're looking at the right one cause
there's a couple of inaudible).
MR. McNAMARA: the other one was redone
with a building permit, I don't know when. My
brother-in-law did it, but he had a building
permit. The big one is actually two stories
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
because the (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
make sure we have -- the three of us
were on the property when we had the
we had the annual meeting on Fishers
I'm just going to
actually
-- Yeah,
Island
and George picked us up because we were at a
loss entirely trying to find anything and
Vicki and I and George viewed it. I just want
to make sure that we're talking about, please
come forward and make sure, we're identifying
this shed you're talking about.
Are you seeing that, George, it's that
shed.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, right. Right.
You're not doing anything in the front of
the house or anything like that anymore.
BOARD SECRETARY: One of the things I
remember Jerry suggesting was applying for
pre-COs and maybe we should --
MR. McNAMARA: Yeah, we didn't bother
with that pre-COs because we decided not to do
the addition. I have the CO for all the work
that has been done.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which would be
what?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. McNAMARA: Which would be this
extension here, which is the only (inaudible).
I have that, I have a copy if you'd like it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are there any COs
or pre-COs on any of these other structures?
MR. McNAMARA: No, the other homes are --
we took over the house in '95, I believe, from
my father-in-law who owned the entire --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Complex.
MR. McNAMAIIA: Right and that was split
down the middle. Three of the children going
one way and three the other way.
MEMBER HORNING: Terry, there's two pre-
existing single-family dwellings seasonally
occupied on the one parcel.
MR. McNAMARA: Right, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Which we determined was
one parcel --
MR. McNAMARA: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: -- even though it has
two different lot numbers or whatever.
Legally, are they owned by the same entity?
MR. McNAMARA: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: The whole thing, right.
Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. McNA_MAR_A: Yes. Yeah, it's the two
sisters and a brother actually who own the --
MEMBER HORNING: Well, the McNamara
Trust.
MR. McNAMARA: The McNamara Trust is
Harriet's part, it's my part, and then Tom
Algran and Karen (Inaudible) are the other
two, Harriet's siblings.
MEMBER HORNING: And everybody is on the
deed?
MR. McNAMARA: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so are there
any questions that anybody has here at this
point?
MEMBER HORNING: I don't have anything.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Since that is the
only variance before us, we're looking just
strictly at a storage
existing shed.
MEMBER HORNING:
-- setback for an
I have a question. At
what difficulty could you move the shed?
MR. McNAMARA: There's nowhere to move
it.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR.
Thank you.
McNAMARA: Ail the rest of it is --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the shed's way high above and all the other
part is actually waterfront, which really
nothing should be there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Any
questions, Jim?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. We had a discussion
about the -- I think we're okay. We have a
shed and that's it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's a shed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, anyone else
wish to address this application?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing, reserve
decision.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6411 - Anthony S. Campo
(adjourned from (9/23/10)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a carryover so
we don't need to read the legal notice.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
for the project.
You had asked
Mark Schwarz, architect
-- the Board had asked for
a clearer site plan with the property lines
clarified and we also did shift the house a
bit further away from the right-of-way so now
from the deck we have 4.4 feet, whereas when
last we met we were pretty much at zero at the
corner of the deck. So we tried to push it
over a bit, we're tight with a septic system
that's on the south side
we can do, at this point,
from the right-of-way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
and that's the best
with the setback
Mark, where on this
is the right-of-way, however? I see the wood
path is still on this, it should be somewhere
in here, but I don't see it indicated on here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
boundary is on there.
BOARD SECRETARY:
MEMBER HORNING:
Just the north
I gave you guys new --
This is the way --
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BOARD SECRETARY:
MEMBER HORNING:
the right-of-way.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
line, right?
BOARD SECRETARY:
we had.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that one. We got this.
Oh, the 14.
The one after that shows
Which is the property
That's what I thought
No, I don't have
This makes a lot --
now I get it. This says 4.4,
the right-of-way on here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah,
this line.
BOARD SECRETARY:
but I didn't see
I don't have
I think you showed me
That's the one you
showed me and, unfortunately, when you
returned it you gave it to Liz, so she wasn't
aware of what you were accepting.
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have the one copy, but
more.
BOARD SECRETARY:
(inaudible) can make
that one and I said that's what they wanted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's submitted to
ZBA 10/13/10 and this is stamped 10/14/10.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I must have given you the
wrong one, but this is the right one. I only
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MR. SCHWARTZ: I wanted to show this to
Vicki just to see and she said it would be
okay, bring the other ones back. I brought
them back the next day and gave it to
Elizabeth. I guess I gave her the wrong ones.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right,
following what's going on over here?
have the one he meant for us to have.
one copy, you have
at it because --
BOARD SECRETARY:
MEMBER HORNING:
are you
We don't
We have
And it's very clear.
What do we do with
these, the wrong ones, give them back?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Give them back to
Vicki.
See I looked at that and
is clearer is than the other,
I said, well it
but where's the
right-of-way. This is what we're supposed to
have.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, there you go.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That looks a lot --
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the way it will
look.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: so you were saying
this now is 4.4 instead of zero from the
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right-of-way.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That corner, this
is a corner of the deck?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah and what other
changes?
MR. SCHWARTZ: That was really it. We
just clarified (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: You say you shifted it a
little bit?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was this, right
and there was a shift, so the (inaudible)
wasn't really there so that's gone and this is
the existing driveway. Now what happens over
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MEMBER HORNING: The building is in the
exact same footprint as it was before? I
thought you said you shifted it a little?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We shifted it this way.
MEMBER HORNING: Oh, that way, got it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So the only
encumbrance is part of the driveway, I guess,
and this path through here, which is up for
discussion.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
That's a wooden --
MR. SCHWARTZ: I
It's wooden, right?
think so, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q:
and then wood walk.
You can drive over
MR. SCHWARTZ:
It says brick walk
It's at grade, is it not?
it?
Yes. That walkway is at
grade, right, that walkway that goes to the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's not
raised as I recall. It's the footpath over to
the accessory structure, it's just at grade?
Pavers? Come on over. Would you just enter
your name into the record?
MR. CAMPO: Anthony Campo.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anthony Campo.
This here, this path this is just at --
MR. CAMPO: Oh no. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What is it built out of?
MR. CAMPO: It's just pieces of slate.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not wood, as I
recall, is it?
MR. CAMPO: No, it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: It's just stone.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It says wood.
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MR. CAMPO: It used to be wood years ago
and I just laid slate there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so it's
stone path at grade.
So let's go over the setbacks again.
Let's go over what the variances are now, just
relist them and make sure we get copies of the
correct site plan.
MEMBER HORNING: How soon can I get --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Why don't you take
this copy? You take this one.
MEMBER HORNING: All right.
BOARD SECRETARY: You need it more than
we do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we have a 4.4
instead of the zero side yard setback; is that
-- no, front yard rather?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's front yard.
MEMBER HORiqING: 4.4.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_A_N: Okay and then what
other issues do we have here?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
it.
I believe that was really
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have to look on
my old notes.
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BOARD SECRETARY: Rear yard at 50, less
than the Code required setback of 50 and less
than 75 feet to a bulkhead.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's look at the
notice. You have a front yard setback at 40
feet and a rear yard at 50. On the site plan
shows zero, which is now 4.4 and rear yard of
26.5. Is the 26.5 still the same?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 22.9.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We got 22.9 over
here, the house is 34, the deck is 22.9; is
that right?
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's the latest, yup.
MEMBER HORNING: So the distance from the
bulkhead must have changed too then, right?
BOARD SECRETARY:
wetlands.
MEMBER HOHNING:
you say --
BOARD SECRETARY:
one.
MEMBER HORNING:
plus 4 or what is
from the bulkhead,
78, oh no, that's the
It says 30 so wouldn't
No, that's the wrong
We don't know if it's 30
it then, right? Distance
it was originally 30.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have Code
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required 40 feet and we have rear yard setback
at 26.5, Code requires 50 and you've changed
it now to 22.9 from the deck and with that in
order to shift the house for this front yard
setback. All right and what is it from --
BOARD SECRETARY: That's the question.
He'll have to provide that to us anyway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we need to
know, the site plan had a setback from the
bulkhead of 30 and we now need to know what it
is here.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, it's a little bit
more to the --
BOARD SECRETARY: It's probably like 34-
and-change.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah or maybe less than
that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's going to be a few
feet more than what it was, but I'll have to
get that on the plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 33 to 30 plus or
minus.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Where do you take it
from, the very end of that bulkhead?
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BOARD SECRETARY:
closest to the structure,
deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Yes, the part that's
which would be the
Yeah, it would be
from the
closest.
BOARD SECRETARY:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
corner of the deck right over to the
Yup.
That very end part?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, that very
end. Okay and we have to make a note that the
stone walkway in the right-of-way is at grade
so it could be driven or walked over.
So Mark, how about you just give us that
dimension and provide a couple of copies of
the corrected, you know, this survey to us?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, sorry about that.
Yup.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right. Does
the Board have any questions, at this point,
of this amended plan?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't.
MEMBER HORNING: Again, we have the
Trustees' approval, correct?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: We have the LWRP saying
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
it's consistent and we have Suffolk County
saying it's local determination.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
the DEC permit
for the septic.
BOARD SECRETARY: You have to revise
those.
MEMBER HORNING: We could make our
decision pending approval of the DEC? I mean
are we going to have that before we make a
decision?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It would be we
couldn't do -- anything within the DEC's
jurisdiction he wouldn't be able to do --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
without the permit.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
condition it, that's fine,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Yup. I'm still waiting on
and the Department of Health
Exactly. You could
but --
That's just
redundant. I mean they have to --
MR. SCHWARTZ: I also need the, nowadays
Department of Health wants the Trustees'
approval and the DEC approval before they give
you their approval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On the septic?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
is just --
(inaudible)
DEC.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On the septic.
Right. So what is the site plan dated? This
it's still dated December 30, 2010
amended, revised -- no, no that's
BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah, so he didn't re-
date it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: It's not re-dated
on here, Mark. It's just by hand on here it
says 10/13. So what we need is to just make
sure that this site plan, this September 30tn,
just make sure that we know this is the final
amended plan. Now, because these setbacks
have changed we can do this as an amended
application. I don't believe we have to do an
amended Notice of Disapproval.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Are they smaller?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: No, that's --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The variances, are
they smaller?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, they're -- well
BOARD SECRETARY: Two are smaller and one
is larger.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N:
one is larger.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
area, rear -- it should be
a problem with it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
for rear, side variances?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
things.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Two are smaller and
Are they the same
fine. I don't have
Yeah, I mean --
(Inaudible) asking
Yeah, the same
Yeah, that's fine.
But the variance
distance has been increased or decreased, not
by much, the right-of-way is clearer.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay, that's fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, this was just
so we could see what you're actually proposing
and you've just tweaked that a little bit and
then therefore reduced that a little bit. As
long as we get all the information we need, I
think we can just go ahead and close this
subject to receipt of the --
BOARD SECRETARY: Showing the setbacks.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just make sure you
write the revision there, the dates and stuff
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
so we know which set of plans to work with.
The Building Department gets the right one and
we get the right one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
would you do us a favor?
I think, Mark,
Put down site plan
dated today and an amended site plan so we
know very clearly it's an amended site plan.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: As of what date then?
Today?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Put it done as of
today, that means this is the first time we've
really talked about it so, as far as I'm
concerned, it's the first time I've received
it.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So let's date it as
of -- what are we doing, October 21, 2010 as
amended. Okay.
All right, clear?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, okay. Great.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, anyone
else in the audience who wishes to address
this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Hearing none, I make a motion to close
the hearing, reserve decision subject to
receipt of an amended site plan dated October
21, 2010 as discussed and reviewed in this
hearing; is there a second?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'll second it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
241
HEARING ~6396 - Richard and
Joann Savarese
(adjourned from 9/23/10)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Enter your name for
the record, Mark.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: We --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, let's just
check the date.
BOARD SECRETARY: You probably didn't
date it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom date is
September 29tn, that's usually a print date.
So it may have printed it
change, I'm not sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I've got October 13, 2010
then or it didn't
Wait a minute.
on this. He
actually changed it. We received it on
October 14.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's the one. No,
that's the one with the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's the one with
the revised side yard.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Your revisions don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
reflect the side yard up top. I don't know if
it was that way or not.
BOARD SECRETARY: 3.3.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is correct.
BOARD SECRETARY: 3.3 the closest.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
BOARD SECRETARY: No,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It's 4.6 now.
3.3.
3.3 over here,
right and notched back to 4.6. 3.3 on both
sides of the property line.
MR. SCHWARTZ: What we did was we reduced
the size of the deck by 6 feet and we shifted
the building forward a bit so we can get a
total of 3.3 feet on each side, which seems
adequate to at least service the building and
re-side or put new windows in or whatever
might have to happen without going on the
neighbor's property.
MEMBER HORNING: That one October 13.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mark, do you have
the LWRP comments on this? This was received
September 15, 2010 in our office.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
no.
I don't have them with me,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Here, let's look at
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
what it says, we'll provide you with a copy.
It's consistent, but it also says the Board of
Trustees issued a wetlands permit on July 22,
2010 "condition on the Board of Trustees'
permit is the establishment of a natural
vegetative buffer seaward of the AE zone line
as depicted on the site plan dated June 5,
2009."
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: My first question
is has that changed on this revised site plan?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No. No, it hasn't.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is the same
then. "In the event that the action is
approved, it is recommended that this
condition be memorialized in the record.
Additionally, it is recommended that the term
of the buffer and maintenance activities are
better defined. A sample definition for a
natural vegetative buffer follows," and that's
right out of the code book.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know,
describing what it is with a 4-foot wide path
and so on. I just want to make sure you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
no issues with these as
MR. SCHWARTZ: No.
is all natural as it is,
way.
conditions.
Actually, that area
it'll remain that
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, we don't
want this coming back, okay, do you understand
what I mean?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yup.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. LWRP
referred. Were there any other changes, out
of curiosity, did you manage to -- I think you
did talk to the neighbor and the neighbor had
no problem with, I believe, with your --
BOARD SECRETARY: Can I speak on that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, go ahead.
BOARD SECRETARY: The neighbor, the
adjoining neighbor last name is DeChance, he
did call the office twice actually. He didn't
want the house moved forward because it would
-- he has a copy of this revised plan --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Right.
BOARD SECRETARY: -- and he's fine with
that and I can attest to that cause he did say
it over the phone.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Want me to swear
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you in?
BOARD SECRETARY: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY: Cause they always
change their mind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The question is
it's still very, very tight. One, you'd be in
a private right-of-way doing construction and
the other you're going to be very close to
somebody, if not on their property, and --
BOARD SECRETARY: He said he had no
problem with that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- since that was
an issue, what -- did you get anything in
writing from him at all?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No. No, I didn't get it
in writing. He did speak with the Savareses.
BOARD SECRETARY: He spoke with me too,
and he has no problem with the ladders and all
that issue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's all all
right. Does this Board want it in writing or
do we -- is testimony adequate?
BOARD SECRETARY: You need to put it in
writing for the future.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you want to get
something from the neighbors, it's still
extremely close to the line.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That would be my
choice, to have something in writing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you do that?
Since there's not really an issue there's no
point -- we can just close the hearing subject
to receiving that letter.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If that's what the
Board decides to do.
Is there anyone else in the audience
wants to address this application?
Any board members want to make a comment
or question?
MEMBER HORNING: I'm not sure I have the
LWRP letter. I know I have a note that it was
consistent, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's right here.
MEMBER HORNING: I've been looking for
it, so if I could get another copy of it?
BOARD SECRETARY: Here you go, that's for
him.
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
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BOARD SECRETARY: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Your copy. That's
fine. And we'll make sure you get a copy of
this so there's no surprises here because --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I did get a copy, I
just don't have it with me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine because we
will be writing in our decision a condition to
support this recommendation.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, you're
aware of that. Anything else, anybody?
Hearing no other comments, I'm going to
make a motion close this hearing, reserve
decision subject to receipt of a letter via
the architect from the neighbors, what's their
name?
BOARD SECRETARY: DeChance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: DeChance, property
owners indicating no objection to trespassing
on -- cause that's what it is -- their
property during construction.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And, you know,
spelling out anything else they have issues
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
with or concerns over. Okay?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Ail right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there a second?
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6396 John and
Daniella Venetis
(adjourned from 8/26/10)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Have you received
everything you need from everybody?
MRS. MOORE: I don't know. The only
thing new that I got to my knowledge is the
September 20th Land Preservation Committee
report.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good, that's
exactly --
MRS. MOORE: It's the only thing. Okay,
good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: I don't believe I've ever
got an LWRP comments on this one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see if I have
it in here.
BOARD SECRETARY: Pat just say your name
for the record.
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf of
Mr.
but
and Mrs. Venetis.
There was one on an original
-- I believe that's
application,
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ASST.
held that over.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
over.
ASST.
TOWN ATTORNEY: I believe he just
Yeah, he held that one
TOWN ATTORNEY: It's the same one.
BOARD SECRETARY: Yup, the same thing.
MRS. MOORE: It's a different
application, but I mean typically what happens
on a second floor addition is it's an exempt.
You've gotten lots of those in your -- even
today you've gotten additions and so on that
are all exempt, but --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's all good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It says it's
consistent.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, all right. Well, then I
won't complain.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Stop arguing, it's
consistent.
MRS. MOORE: I don't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The only thing I
want to make sure people are aware of, your
clients and other applicants going forward, we
are taking it upon ourselves to make sure that
any correspondence that we receive in our
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office, the applicants or their agents are
made aware of.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. I heard your --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We are also
requiring, well we are indicating on our
instruction sheet for all applications that
the applicant and/or agent should review the
file in the office prior to the hearing to
make sure you have all the information.
BOARD SECRETARY: We're no longer sending
anything out.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that's bad.
BOARD SECRETARY: Because stuff gets lost
and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We've been getting
complaints. We've been asked for amended
notices based upon -- amended decisions
because they claim they didn't get an LWRP
letter and we put in a condition based on it
and that's not happening anymore.
MRS. MOORE: Well -- okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's now going to
be the responsibility --
MRS. MOORE: Just a suggestion, that what
you've been doing in the past works great that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you
their agent
else --
BOARD SECRETARY: Well,
you know, prove your case.
MRS.
still leave it up to the applicant or
to verify that there is nothing
its up to you to,
MOORE: -- but it's always helpful
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It works great
because it's very convenient for all the
applicants and their agents for --
MRS. MOORE: Well, yeah because you can
act on things more quickly than to come to
Vicki weekly --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you can --
MRS. MOORE: -- and say, Vicki, what do
we have this week?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can call or you
can have your secretary call and say if there
anything new in the file? That's why you've
heard every single hearing today that we have
a list saying do you know that there's
neighbors' letters, do you know there's this
and do you know there's that and Vicki has
gone to the trouble of actually making copies
to hand to people today.
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MRS. MOORE:
(inaudible) yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
best to --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
courteous --
Oh, I know I've watched
So we are doing our
-- be very
Right.
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something went in the mail
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
and they didn't get
MRS. MOORE: I don't have a -- yes. I
have no complaint of the way things were
operating and I think you're right that it's
up to the applicant or their agent to make
sure that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're informed
about what's there or not.
MRS. MOORE: -- we're informed, but it
certainly is always helpful to get a copy
since you're forwarding those documents to the
board members at the time just to add one more
into the process. Again, it's not a
representation by the Board that that person
has receive it cause I heard one of the
comments, one of the architects complain that
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MRS. MOORE: That can always happen, but
BOARD SECRETARY:
that.
MRS. MOORE: --
So we're eliminating
I would have request that
you not eliminate that correspondence going
out because at least
several applications
convenience.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
for somebody who has
it certainly is a
We will continue to
be as helpful as --
MRS. MOORE: Appreciate it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- we can, but we
are lifting some of the responsibility, which
is not required by any means, on our office
staff to do what they've been doing. We will
continue to be as cooperative and helpful as
possible, but the -- as you know, the
applicant and/or the agent is responsible. So
we'll have things here at the hearing. The
intent is that we don't want to have things
coming back at us. Having said that, we ought
to review then this letter from the --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, let's do that cause
that's why we're here, actually.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From the --
MRS. MOORE: Well, there's two documents
that you have received since the close of the
hearing. The first document that you received
is dated September 20th from Department of Land
Preservation and on October -- I have my cover
letter, I'm sorry -- you received on October
8tn Interscience Environmental Planners and
Development Consultants provided an opinion
and report along with photographs with respect
to the project and that was submitted as I
said October 8. So those are the documents
that we talked about the last hearing.
One was that you had sent it out to Land
Preservation waiting for comments and I
pointed out that we had actually waited -- we
were expecting Interscience to provide a
report, but at the time of the last hearing
they had not completed it. So given the
timeline of this hearing, we were able to give
them adequate time to review -- to inspect the
property, review all the record, and prior to
(inaudible) of October 5tn, his report. He had
the benefit of the September 20th letter so
that if there was anything in there that he --
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that contradicted his conclusion, we could
address, but bottom line is that the
conclusions he draws in his report are that
this project, as it's proposed, will actually
provide environmental benefit to the area
because, one, it will require upgrade of a
sanitary system, an that too was -- that
conclusion was concurred also by the
Department of Land Preservation.
We are prepared to provide the buffers
that are typically required by the Town
Trustees anyway with respect to along the
bulkhead. We are also prepared to comply with
drainage and again that's standard operating
procedure, but certainly something that
because of this project we are obligated to do
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could we maybe go
through these one at a time?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: How would you like me to do
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I have both
documents in front of me, so I --
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MRS. MOORE: Oh, so you'd rather -- okay.
Which would you like to go through first, it's
your choice.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, with regard
to the septic system proposed, let's look at
it --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the Land
Preservation letter and your (inaudible)
letter.
MRS. MOORE: Right, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Clearly a new
sanitary system is going to improve things.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: However, Land
Preservation has some concerns. Obviously one
of them is no additional runoff directed
toward Corey Creek.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And that because it
has to be raised, it be visually screened, but
not screened with something that -- well,
screened from the Preserve. Now, what I want
to have your comments about is they're
recommending that the septic system that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
you're proposing they want to see one that's
designed and proven to be substantially more
effective under similar circumstances than the
design you're currently proposing. That's
bullet number one.
MRS. MOORE: I understand that, but as a
matter of law the County Health Department
will make sure that our current system meets,
if not current standards, well I don't think
they have -- yeah, we probably, depending on
the -- there's public water there, right?
Okay, we're on public water, we may need
variances from the Health Department because
when you're building on the water the style or
the design of the system has to meet certain
regulations and oftentimes that's done by way
of variance because if, you know, if you have
the shallow rings -- the standard system is
the deep system that is buried. When you have
a waterfront piece of property and you have a
shallow system, so I haven't yet -- again,
which comes first chicken or the egg, if we
get this approval, we have to go to the Health
Department to get approval.
We will get approval for whatever system
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the Health Department believes conforms to
their regulations or to the extent that they
deviate from the regulations getting a
variance from the regulations and I caveat
that because I haven't made the application
yet and so if the sanitary system -- we know
that a sanitary system on the water has to
have at least a 2-foot clearance below the
bottom of the system clearance and then as far
as the distance, because it's an existing
house, the setback from the sanitary to the
house, I don't know do we need -- can we meet
the 10-foot requirement, it may need an 8-
foot, so until the system is actually -- until
the application is submitted, we know it's
going to be conforming. We know that -- I
clarify. We know that the Health Department
has to review it and approve it.
So as far as the way it's described here
by Land Preservation, yes, we're going to have
a more conforming system than what is there
today because we can anticipate that the house
was built in the 60's or so, the sanitary
system is the same vintage, nobody was
concerned about the distance between the
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septic system and the groundwater at the time.
The -- you know, it's there, we know it's in
the front yard, but, you know, beyond that
it's going to conform. It's going to be
approved by the Health Department. So we
already know that it's going to be a more
conforming system.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What was the actual
comment, Leslie?
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: I'll read it to you, ~With
regard to the septic system, we recommend a
septic system design proven to be
substantially more effective under similar
circumstances than the current design." Okay,
we agree.
"In addition, we recommend that any
elevated septic system approved not cause any
additional runoff to be directed toward the
Preserve or Corey Creek." Again, we agree on
it's typically a system -- it's a cement, it's
a wall of some kind with sand, it's pervious,
so we will not cover it, which the Health
Department would never allow us to do anyway,
but it will be by its own design a pervious
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system. So that we, again, that is correct.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Leslie, I just have
a quick question.
MRS. MOORE: Yes?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't know -- and
you can chime in, Pat, this current design,
are they referring to what's in the
application or what's already installed; I
don't know.
BOARD SECRETARY: No, they have to design
a brand new system.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: They do --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have -- because we,
yeah, we have to --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Is that part of
your application right now?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's not -- it's not
before the Zoning Board because it's not the
Zoning Board's jurisdiction.
not
BOARD SECRETARY:
from us.
MRS. MOORE: No,
They need a variance,
I've already said, yes,
we will have to go to the Health Department,
yes. Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, I understand
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you have to go to the Health Department, Pat,
but I mean from an environmental perspective
and we all acknowledge that you have one of
these criteria that allows you to consider the
physical environmental impact, I mean if
there's a better septic system out there than
what's before you, I could say and I could
justify the Board saying, well, you can try to
do better. There's a better one out there,
why don't you use it?
MRS. MOORE: And we will.
TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay, but you know
ASST.
MRS. MOORE:
We don't disagree.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- the Health
Department has minimum standards, okay, so you
could walk in there say a one-star septic
system when there's a five-star one available.
Do you know what I'm saying?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, they won't let us to a
one-star when there's a five-star is available
and it could work.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: But again, the
Board, you know, the Board can say as part of
your consideration of the environmental
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impact, we want you to put the best that there
is out there because it's an environmental
impact assessing --
MRS. MOORE: Well --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- I wouldn't say
they wouldn't have jurisdiction.
MRS. MOORE: -- I'm not sure that, you
know, here's where the Board's --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So long as it's not
-- so long as it wouldn't impact your Health
Department approval.
MRS. MOORE: Well, we agree that we are
going -- our only -- what the Zoning Board
should be addressing is we insist that you get
Health Department approval. No problem.
We're doing that already, we gotta go to the
Health Department, it is what it is, but to
dictate what kind of system? It is way
outside the purview of this Board. I would
even argue that --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: On a particularly
very sensitive environmental parcel --
MRS. MOORE: I honestly, I would say to
you there is an existing house. We have
already established that there is an existing
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sanitary system. We are upgrading that
system. So we are already a defacto
improvement on the existing system.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whoa. Whoa, nobody
is arguing that.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, but --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, I'm saying for
you to say that they don't have jurisdiction
to look at the septic system, you know, they
do.
MRS. MOORE: I --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And if they have,
you know, if you have any kind of knowledge of
what could be done better --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, if you have an opinion -
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- with respect to
this septic system --
MRS. MOORE: -- then give it to us, we'll
consider it.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- you can
certainly say, we suggest you use this as
opposed to what you're proposing because it
would do a better job.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The only way we
could do that is by having our own engineer --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, exactly. Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
don't do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
And we normally
We don't. However,
I'm discussing this because these are the only
things that are left on this application.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What is sounds like
though is that the Land Preservation
Department may have had somebody on the
committee --
MRS. MOORE: No.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- and we don't
have some -- it's unclear in the memo.
MRS. MOORE: I was at that meeting.
Okay, let me start off with saying I just want
to put the objection on the record for future,
but not to discuss it any further, Land
Preservation jurisdiction and recommendations
are inappropriate and not -- there's no legal
basis for this recommendation. Aside from
that, rather than detour and have a big
argument of whether they have legal authority
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or don't,
determine that,
doing is we're
these comments
a court may someday in the future
but not today. What we're
accepting to the extent that
can be incorporated reasonably
and logically into our project, we're
listening. It would be as if any neighbor
would come here and said, hey, I'm a neighbor.
I want to make sure that when you do your
sanitary system you make a good system that
the Health Department would approve because
the Health Department's job is to protect both
the environment and me as a neighbor from
drinking your poo-poo. Okay? Sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: That's
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I mean look --
it.
-- we don't need to
go through a whole bunch of lecturing.
MRS. MOORE: Ail right. Fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The bottom line is
you have described this accurately, these are
neighbors. The Town owns this property that's
adjacent, there were notified accordingly.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have an
obligation, just like we would with Planning
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Board jurisdiction, to pay attention. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: I -- no, you have an
obligation as a neighbor to pay attention just
like Mr. Dinizio heard neighbors previous --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As far as I'm
concerned, the people who monitor the public's
benefit and enjoyment of the land that we have
paid to preserve, okay, we have as much of a
responsibility to protect the interest there
and I believe that any neighbor, homeowner,
would want the environment carefully
preserved.
MRS. MOORE: He's -- he lives there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, what we're
trying to do here is simply insure that that's
the case. It isn't the matter of being
argumentative or fractious, it's a matter of
acknowledging that they want this preserve to
remain pristine for the benefit of everyone.
All right?
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I just say one
thing, though, Leslie?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just one thing. I agree
that there was a letter from Land
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Preservation, they are not experts in sanitary
systems --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No they're not.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and neither are we.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, we can take their
comment as a neighbor, fine. Now, what I'm
hearing from this applicant is that they're
going to do whatever Health Department, the
experts in sanitary systems --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- tells us what to do
and we could -- we don't really -- can accept
or not accept that, that's up to us. We're
talking about what? Setbacks here, that's all
we're talking about. So I think you're just -
- you don't need to hash this all out because
the experts will take care of it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I agree. I agree.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I agree. Let's
move on to the next one.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We really are
looking at it --
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MRS. MOORE: Next, do you want to look at
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
have no objection.
Wetland buffer, you
MRS. MOORE: No, we have -- well, let me
clarify this because my client tells me that
when the Town was considering the acquisition
of this property there was a long discussion
with all the homeowners that were there and
I'll have him put it
was there, I wasn't.
MR. VENETIS: We --
Venetis.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. VENETIS: Okay,
on the record because he
hi, my name is John
Hi.
so me and Mr. Randy
Parsons from the Hamptons I think, the
attorney was from the Hamptons and we had a
long discussion between us and my attorney and
him, about -- are we talking about the road?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, not yet.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. We're talking
about the split rail fence that you were
saying --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Landscape buffer,
in other words.
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MR. VENETIS: Oh yes. Basically, we had
all discussed that the land that was around
the perimeter of the property shall remain the
same and that we would basically -- it would
be forgiven to cut -- they set the boundaries
on either sides of the -- and we signed off on
the boundaries including the front yards and
the back yards.
MRS. MOORE: Which would have been the
encroachment that you just clarified in
determining --
MR. VENETIS: Correct. Correct and that
they would -- we would basically maintain the
way that they are. We were not allowed to
improve upon them, but we were allowed to
maintain them the way that they are and not do
anything to them to build or to touch them any
further.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. That's
where the land that's preserved, that's a non-
disturbance area.
MR. VENETIS: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. That's a
little bit different. I'm on your guy's point
number 2.
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MRS. MOORE: Oh, I thought you wanted to
go over the Land Preservation letter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I'm going
back and forth.
MRS. MOORE: Let me just so he just
spoke, so I'll clarify. The Land Preservation
said with regard to side yard boundaries --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Side yard
boundaries, right.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. ~We recommend that
the property be delineated with fencing not
more than split rail fencing or hedging to
prevent encroachments into the preserve
property. That's what he's talking about.
MR. VENETIS: And we and Jim McMahon,
basically at the beginning of every year, me
and my dad, if any trees or anything fall
down, we go in and we clean up the path for --
and we've done it many times, even in
emergencies when the trees fall down. We go
over to the town. We do our own cleanup and
taking out all the brush and anything that
would disturb the road, but basically
maintaining and making sure that everything is
safe so that everybody can pass and that
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everything's safe. So us putting up the
fences and stuff like that is something that
we discussed way back when with attorney,
Randy Parsons, and my attorney.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I think what
they're referring to is on the side yards,
where you're adjacent to preserved land,
simply --
MRS. MOORE: Well, but that's just --
yeah --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- on your
property not the --
MRS. MOORE: No, but what they're asking
for is to essentially -- arguably, they
because it's all preserved except for that
area that -- well it's all preserved, except
for the areas that have been cleared over the
years that the neighbors have cut back the
overgrowth because otherwise having preserved
land next to you is also -- it would be like
having a vacant lot next to you, eventually
everything from the vacant lot of the preserve
kind of takes over your property.
So there has been, historically all these
properties have kind of cut back, not a lot,
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but just what 5 feet maybe?
MR. VENETIS: The gentleman before, Mr.
Blocker allowed us like 3 feet to cut back the
brush and basically that's all. We make sure
that the brush doesn't overhang onto our
property.
MRS. MOORE: Right. So suddenly the Land
Preservation they've forgotten these
agreements through the acquisition process and
now want him to identify his property line
with a split rail fence essentially, you know,
kind of blocking off -- it just seems to me --
MR. VENETIS:
know, it's --
MRS. MOORE:
It's a military thing. You
Yeah, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, wait. I
don't think that's for a minute what they're
talking about. I think they're just referring
to the fact that I don't think that anyone
would object to any continued clearance of
overhanging brush and so on that's coming on
your property.
MRS. MOORE: But it's vines and the rest,
it's low.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
What they're
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recommending is a way of describing this is
your property line, that's all, and doing it
very gently with something like a split rail
fence to reduce any unintended encroachment
meaning walking around and through and on the
preserved property.
MRS. MOORE: Here, you've gotta get --
sorry.
MR. VENETIS: Well, here's the -- I'll
come up. Here's the -- basically at the end
of our bulkheads is posts that basically cut
us off from the preserved property and that's
the area that is, basically, I think there's
two or three feet on one side and the other
side is -- I think it's maintained by the
gentleman next to us, not us, but there is
another area that is 2 feet or 3 feet on the
other side that's basically the two adjacent
properties and he maintains some sort of area
on his side and it's just basically to cut
back the brush and keep the -- from the
overgrowth looking like it's, how would you
say, like it's vacated property or it doesn't
look finished, that's all, overgrown.
MRS. MOORE: So I guess his point is he
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MR. VENETIS:
property line.
MRS. MOORE: That survey.
do I have it? Let me look.
Here take a look at the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I really don't
think that's what they (inaudible) at all.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, on this side you're
talking about? Okay, on the east side.
MR. VENETIS: You got
MRS. MOORE: Point-3.
MR. VENETIS: -- 12.3
and --
literally 12 --
feet on one side
I don't know -
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didn't like this suggestion. It was something
that was just -- his property is already
pretty small to have this split rail fence and
then now he's clearing the opposite side.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're talking about
the side yard right at the edge of the
property. It's not --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, yeah.
MR. VENETIS: I really just comes right
up, in some cases it comes right up on my
window. I mean whoever --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I don't think
that's what you're talking about.
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MRS. MOORE: 12.3.
MR. VENETIS: -- 12.3 on the other side.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is it the phragmites?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is it the phragmites?
MRS. MOORE: No, no. The side yards,
we're talking about in the sides we only have
12 --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: We were talking about
the plants.
MR. VENETIS: With the trees and --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Trees and stuff, okay.
MR. VENETIS: A lot of them are dead
trees and beyond there and we don't touch that
stuff. The other thing is they come down on
our property a lot of times.
MRS. MOORE: I mean there's no problem
with us saying we're not going to encroach
further, but for us to have to put a fence, it
seems like a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A 4-foot split
rail, 12 feet away from either --
MRS. MOORE: But it's their property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that's why I'm
binging these things up now --
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MRS. MOORE: No, no and I'm glad you are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- I don't want to
wind up making conditions --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that have not
been discussed here.
MRS. MOORE: Well, our preference is not
to have a split rail fence.
MR. VENETIS: If they need to put up a
fence I don't want to contribute to a fence.
I mean I'm already -- I'm sorry. I don't want
to put -- if they need to put up a fence I
don't mind that they put up a fence. I'm not
-- you know, it's so nice to come out to Long
Island and not have fences between your
neighbors and that's the reason we come out
here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But your neighbor
is a preserve.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, but --
MR. VENETIS: Again, it's a preserve and
I completely understand that, but I'm also
entitled to maintain it as per your -- as per
the regulations of the Town.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
something in writing about that?
MRS. MOORE:
that --
MR. VENETIS:
MRS. MOORE:
Well, actually it's beyond
For me maintaining it?
-- at the title when the
town purchased property any encroachments that
were in place at the time, the Town bought
subject to those encroachments. So, to the
extent that there had been clearing or any
additional space --
MR. VENETIS: And the road, too.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the road is there,
yeah, well that's the road to the extent that
it encroaches on outside of the boundaries of
the right-of-way that, too, can remain.
So just like when you buy a piece of
property when you have grass or lawn that
exceeds your property line your title will
show that you've gone beyond your property.
That's what the Town bought. He's not asking
to expand it or improve it; he just doesn't
like the idea of having the Town tell him to
put up a fence when he bought the property --
when the Town bought the property. Promised
that they could keep the areas just as they
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are and now is kind of backwards when this
recommendation comes in, suddenly imposing
putting identifiers, fences.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Okay, I think we've
exhausted this. Let's go on to on your
consultant's number 2, wetland buffer.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: "It's my
understanding the property owner/applicant is
willing to add a low-growing vegetative
wetland buffer, native beach grass as"
(inaudible) ~Virginia rose, in an attempt to
mitigate the negative impacts of overland
runoff into the adjacent wetland. Buffer
design has not been determined at this time."
Okay, now we're talking about your
bulkhead.
MRS. MOORE: Correct. Yes, just the
bulkhead.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, there's --
MR. VENETIS: I'm fine with it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
recommendation.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
The LWRP makes a
they do similarly and
I'm sure the Trustees when I go through their
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
bulkhead.
identified,
of it.
process --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: We're going to go with
that?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll condition it
according to recommendation of LWRP for a
wetland buffer along the bulkhead.
MRS. MOORE: they didn't say -- along the
I don't know that a distance was
let's keep it, you know, the width
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
width.
MRS. MOORE: See
now you've got -- the
Minimum 10-foot in
that, you know, right
rear yard is -- right
now he doesn't have grass.
the pavers, 2-foot pavers
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
He has just -- no
Along the bulkhead.
MRS. MOORE: -- along the bulkhead,
right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, he's
recommending removing that and planting a
buffer.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, he's -- and he's
prepared to do that, he'll put plants, but
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it's not 10 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
We can decide what
MEMBER DINIZIO: It looks like it's 18-
inches to me. The size of a paver.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I mean we'll plant
plants, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we are going
to look at the recommendation of the LWRP and
establish a wetland buffer along the bulkhead.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, keeping in mind that -
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3IN: I am not going to
sit here right now --
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. We're just
telling you we --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and say how many
feet it's going to be.
MRS. MOORE: Right, we are prepared to do
it. Keep in mind that there won't be runoff
because our dry -- we'll have drywells and
gutters that collect the runoff so that
landscape buffer is more important when you
don't have gutters and leaders and that's the
Trustees oftentimes when you have an existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
house and there's nothing going to be done.
You have it, so you know let's make it
reasonable.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Gutters, leaders
and drywells are an absolute Code requirement.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, but this -- we're kind
of backward --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're on a
bulkhead and you've got very -- you know how
fragile your property is. Everybody, all
those five houses in there have environmental
issues and you know for us to look at LWRP
recommendation is not unreasonable. Okay and
your own consultant indicated a willingness to
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- incorporate one
and so have you.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, let's
move on to the disturbance area in your
proposal, number 4. You indicate that there
is an engineer's report that's concluded the
first story can support the second story --
MRS. MOORE: That was at the first
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hearing, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
have is a verbal statement
What I believe we
from the architect.
MRS. MOORE: You have a written, oh you
have two things.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- indicating
inspection.
MRS. MOORE: You have -- Angel Chorno is
present and testified at the last hearing.
You also have as part of your application
dated January 10tn to the Zoning Board that was
in the application packet itself, it says,
~This letter is to affirm that I have made
visual inspection of the --~.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that inaudible)
letter?
MRS. MOORE: No, this is Angel s letter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, all right.
MRS. MOORE: That was part of your
packet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's not an
engineer, he's an architect.
MRS. MOORE: No, it's an architect, but
that's okay, we won't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I'm just setting
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the record it was
architect report.
MRS. MOORE:
yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the hearing --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
was generated --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
an engineering report and an
It's an architect's report,
When I asked him at
-- how that report
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- he said, well I
looked at it and I said did you dig around the
foundation, did you cut into sheetrock and
basically it was fairly minimal.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it was --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He did not -- you
said that --
MRS. MOORE: You were there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you looked at
it. Mr. Venetis said that he examined the
sheetrock and --
MR. VENETIS: We cut open the walls for
Mr. Chorno. He examined the interior of the
sheetrock and we also went into the crawlspace
and he measured the block out and we showed
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
him joints and all the mortar joints and all
that stuff and he was fine with it. I guess
285
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you're going to
assure us that, in fact, that first floor and
foundation are staying.
MR. VENETIS: They have to stay as far as
budget is concerned. If they're not staying,
then I'm not doing it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're not staying.
Well, that's an important issue.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Finally, I think
it's the issue of the road.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And now you, I am
sure, are familiar with condition that the
Board imposed upon Mr. Zang when his variances
were granted.
MRS. MOORE: You actually in -- in the
first Zoning Board hearing you actually
granted the
of the road,
application,
ZBA granted the depth approval for Wagner.
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280A, which required maintenance
and it was also in the Wagner
the history of this file when the
It
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
was in there as well as there was 280A
approval there. So at least my memory is that
the first Zoning Board grant --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. I'm going
to read you the -- read you that decision.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, go ahead. Only the
whole --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Zang, I'm going to
read you that condition.
MRS. MOORE: Well -- okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: ~This is
application ~5827, Jonathan Zang, Takaposha
Road, March 9, 2006." All right, the
variances were granted.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think Zang had
280A, as a matter of fact --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) he does
not (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: He doesn't, I know cause I
was the applicant on that or the agent at
that. I have, as I said, Wagner's, the right-
of-way, let me see the condition, I think it
was here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, what we're
saying is that before the issuance of a CO the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
applicant shall file for an application for a
variance based on 280A.
MRS. MOORE: Right, but that's Zang, not
ours. Ours --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And they have to
specify the required materials to be applied
to the base of the applicant's right-of-way
for safe, clear and unobstructed access from
the Town street to the applicant's property
for the reason that the lot does not have
direct frontage along an improved town street.
Now the condition of the road that you
all use is in the same difficult, you know, I
know you do your best to clear things, but I
can't tell you the number of times I've been
out there and where the culvert is it's
underwater. You know, I mean I could not pass
in my car on several occasions and I know you
must certainly understand and experience the
same thing.
Mr. Zang has been meeting with the Town
Engineer and the -- we have had a meeting on
the whole problem with Takaposha Road, you've
received a letter from the Assistant Town
Attorney notifying all homeowners about the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
fact that something has to be done to ensure
safe access for emergency and ambulance and
fire and so on and -- yeah, you can.
MR. VENETIS: Okay, going back to when
the land was bought by the Land Preservation
Board they basically, Mr. Parsons and Mr. Jim
McMahon from the Town, basically he told us
that they would maintain -- partially maintain
the road and keep it clear for us and they've
been doing so at the beginning of every
summer. They go in and take away some of the
brush --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
part of the road.
MR. VENETIS:
the road, in fact,
At the beginning
-- at the beginning part of
all the way in.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To your house?
MR. VENETIS: Yeah, straight to
everybody's house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Across the culvert?
MR. VENETIS: Yeah, and they grade the
soil and they basically do a great job of
maintaining it and keeping it straight once a
year.
In the event that we have an emergency,
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we've definitely cleared the road before in
the past and taken out any brush or trees that
have toppled over into the road. We've done
that ourselves and we continue to do so. At
one point, Mr. Parsons and Jim, they said that
they were going to make an improvement and
have a deck or parking area outside onto the
Main Road and they were going to have some
kind of a deck or walkthrough to the beach,
originally when they bought the property, so
that this way people would have access to the
beach and to the preserve.
I don't know what happened since then,
but now people do walk down that dirt road on
a regular basis and they drive their cars down
there and it's something that is a concern to
all of us.
I have already lost a few items. You
know, our homes are not too far away from the
Main Road. So people do walk back there and
they treat the place as their own and I've
already lost one ski -- a whole jet ski.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, when
we're talking about emergency, we're talking
about at 3:00 in the morning when someone, God
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forbid, has a heart attack or a fire breaks
out. That's not your obligation to go out and
look for brush.
MR. VENETIS: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know?
MR. VENETIS: No, no. I understand.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean the Town has
now become very, very aware of this whole
access issue for a number of reasons. I mean
there was just a work session in front of the
Town Board this Tuesday where Vinny Tirelli
from fire fighters was present talking about
tremendous number of problems on both public
and private roads out here in terms of just
getting -- I guess it's in today's paper.
MRS. MOORE: Goodbye George, Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fishers Island
ferry calls.
(3:16 p.m. MR. HORNING LEFT THE
MEETING.)
Let me just read regarding 280A access.
We have here a letter from Jim McMahon of the
Department of Public Works -- what are you
talking about?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You don't have to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
read that, it's just for your information.
BOARD SECRETARY: That's just info from a
higher --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, right. All
right. That's fine.
MRS. MOORE: I just want to clarify the
record because again --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's from
Venetis, previous Venetis.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the previous Venetis
application had the letter from Jim McMahon
that acknowledged that the Town maintains the
Town -- it's not a town road, but it's a Town
maintained road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, subject to
fulfillment of it's obligation for emergency -
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But the obligation,
what that obligation is is what's under
discussion. Part of that road is owned by the
County, not county, it's private. The
beginning part of that road off of North
Bay~iew is privately owned. I don't know if
you're aware of that, that's a little
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
confusing. Then, the Town when it bought the
Blocker property --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, right, Blocker started
into the road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was in, right,
then it has some obligation to do some
maintenance, but it's not clear what.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One of the biggest
problems is should construction equipment come
across that most fragile area where the
culvert is and cause collapse or some damage,
then we're going to want to make sure that if
you're bringing in construction equipment then
any damage caused to that road is going to be
your responsibility to repair.
MR. VENETIS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I'm not
saying there will be, hopefully there won't
be. It depends on the kind of construction
equipment you bring in.
MR. VENETIS: Thank God there's no
foundation, there's no heavy equipment.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I mean you're
not bringing in a cement mixer, so --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MR. VENETIS: Thank God.
MRS. MOORE: Just keep in mind, I mean,
just practically, you have the trucks that
come in with the wood supplies, lumber or
whatever, it might be easier to have them come
in with small trucks. I mean just as a
practical suggestion.
MR. VENETIS: Absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right, but I
want the record to reflect that that was a
recommendation of both the Town Engineer as
well as the Land Preservation Committee.
MR. VENETIS: And as far as being green,
I do my own landscaping. I don't have -- but
the neighbors and I would, you know, I would
strongly recommend that anybody who does do
construction on those five houses have to
contribute or contribute monetarily cause I do
every year and I believe we should maintain
the road monetarily.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think that's a
very good idea and I think that it's incumbent
upon you and your neighbors to get together
and see what you can collect and --
MR. VENETIS: I think that you guys could
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
enforce that because any time you --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can't. It's a
private road.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What the Town is
going to be doing now and it's doing it with
Zang's is we're withholding their CO until the
make the improvements to the road for 280A.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I mean so nobody in
that area and that's what that letter was
advising people, you're not going to be able
to get permits to do anything unless you do
something to that road.
MRS. MOORE: Or you promise to restore
the road.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, it's not a
restore. No, no. It's 280 -- you have to
bring it up to 280A standards. 15 feet
emergency access.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it is, but it is
presently that, at least the --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: A fire truck can't
go over that culvert, Pat.
MRS. MOORE: Well, but
luck. In, I mean the ideal
It's bad.
the culvert, good
is to have the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
Town replace the culvert with a little bridge
or another culvert. So that's not going to
happen.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's not going to
happen.
MRS. MOORE: So I mean those houses were
built in the 60s so far fire trucks and
emergency have fortunately not been impeded.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: (Inaudible) Pat and
it has to be acknowledged by the people who
live there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible)
somebody dies in a fire.
MR. VENETIS: I understand that, but let
me ask are they going to come up with anything
to --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I have no idea what
Zang is going to do. They have a problem and
again if anybody else who wants to come in for
a permit is going to have a problem going
forward. So you're on notice, that's that. I
mean I don't know what else to say.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible)
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Let me ask a question,
so the Town once maintained this road?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The Town maintains
it for purposes of it's a trail --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, no, no, no. See that's
the mistake I am --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute.
Wait a minute. Let him finish his question.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Does the Town have to
maintain it for the purposes of access and --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, because there are five
homes there and the Town purchased the
property with those five homes being there.
would --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, do you
understand under the law --
MRS. MOORE:
I
-- professionally disagree -
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
(inaudible).
-- that the Town --
Ail right,
MRS. MOORE:
here, but
a lawsuit
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It's not really relevant
I think you're going to end up with
It is relevant.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: No. I don't want to have a
fight here with the Town Attorney. I think
that legally when the Town acquires a piece of
property with an existing road that serves
five homes, the Town acknowledges and this was
very important, he tells me that the closing
was held up because of this issue. They
wanted the Town to acknowledge that they were
going to maintain that road to at least the
standards for the five homes.
What they do as a trail, you don't have
to maintain anything. So you're right, if
it's just for a trail, that's not the issue
it's for the five homes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: (Inaudible the
nature preserve though, I mean --
MRS. MOORE: No, but this -- it is not a
nature preserve --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, unfortunately,
whoever was representing your client and the
people who live there, at that time, they got
nothing in writing. Nothing in writing that
benefitted the owners down there. Nothing,
that's the problem.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I think as a matter of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
law, your title search would show an existing
road and five homes. So I think as a matter
of law --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
and it also did easements,
It would also show
Pat, that every
single -- those owners down there have the
right to maintain that road, just as they have
the right over it.
MRS. MOORE: They have the right to
maintain it, but not an obligation and you're
trying to -- Town is trying to push the
obligation --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You're right. The
Town doesn't have an obligation either.
MRS. MOORE: -- to the homeowners. Well,
historically, he has done it, but would he
like to have some of the other homeowners that
have been less cooperative and --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If they got
together and --
MRS. MOORE: -- yeah, you know?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what? We
are not experts.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I am entering this,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
I brought this up because it's important --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- because we're
going to wind up conditioning your decision on
some of these issues as we did with Zang.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There will be
differences, obviously, they're different
properties and so on, but there are some real
problems that, with all respect to property
owners, we also have an obligation to the
welfare of the community and that's your
neighbors and it's in everybody's best
that a safe, habitable place.
in a very fragile environment
interest to make
Five homes exist
MR. VENETIS:
And remote.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and they're
there -- and remote.
MR. VENETIS: Absolutely. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Really remote and
so this isn't about being punitive to anybody.
This is really about attempting to provide
property owners with what they need within the
boundaries of what our appellate jurisdiction
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
is when it's reasonable and at the same time
create an environment that's healthy for the
nature preserve and healthy for the people who
live there in terms of safe access.
That's our goal and we really don't have
to hash out anymore here. What we were here
for was to examine the recommendations of your
Interscience and of the comments from the
neighbor, namely the Land Preservation
Commission. I think we've covered all the
points.
MRS. MOORE: Everything else was already
dealt with, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we've
discussed them in detail. Everything's been
entered into the record so no one's going to
get surprised and now the Board, you know, I
think has more than ample stuff to go ahead
and close this hearing and proceed to
deliberate. Write a decision and deliberate.
MRS. MOORE: I really appreciate, thank
you for your patience and indulgence in this.
Please don't get -- don't misunderstand my
comments. We do appreciate your work and I
know you're trying to draft a decision that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
will address the concerns adequately and
fairly for Mr. and Mrs. Venetis.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
MRS. MOORE: Please, just my -- what
sends me on a little loopy rage is where I see
the Town trying to bring things in from a side
way that I don't want you as the Board to be
sucked in with some kind of condition that
they have now -- whatever they're up to. I
wasn't privy to any meetings so I don't know
what it is that they are directing the
Building Department with respect to issuance
of permits or COs or whatever, the Building
Department has an obligation that when you
submit a building permit you have 280A and
you've got all the permits that you need, they
have an obligation to issue a building permit.
Would you need to make sure that at the
time you come in for the CO, I don't disagree
that as a matter of just good stewardship of
the Town that the Building Department should
make sure that any ruts, any damage to the
existing conditions of the road be corrected.
That's the difference we're making here, is
that we will -- we've already agreed
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
throughout our whole presentation that we
would do that and --
MR. VENETIS: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: -- we're, you know,
see that's a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right,
we're very clear.
same page.
MRS. MOORE:
I think everybody's
Okay. Yes.
I don't
I think
on the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We've fleshed out
every issue I can possibly think of and maybe
more than we really cared to.
Is there anyone else in this audience
would like to address this application?
Is there anyone else on the Board has any
questions?
Hearing no further comment, I make a
motion to close the hearing reserve decision
to later date. Is there a second?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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303
ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
HEARING #6415 Richard J.
and Joann Savarese
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, we have
a request that I'm going to bring before the
Board to open the Savarese hearing that we
just closed, for purposes of receiving
testimony from the neighbor so that it may be
entered into the public record. The
applicant's agent is not here, but the
applicant is here; is that
MR. SAVARESE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
correct?
Okay,
please note
therefore, I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
COLLECTIVE: Aye.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Ail in favor?
Ail right, we have
a quorum. The motion carries unanimously so
we will reopen the hearing.
Would you please state your name?
MR. DeCHANCE: Thank you, Madam Chair,
and I apologize for my tardiness here today.
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that the applicant said yes. So,
would like to make a motion on that basis to
reopen the hearing for that purpose. Is there
a second?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
My name is Bill DeChance. I am the owner of
the residence immediately east of the Savarese
residence and I've come basically to speak in
favor of the application and would like to
speak specifically just to the side yard
setback that this Board will consider in
conjunction with that application.
If I just can approach for a moment, I
have an aerial of the property I'd like the
Board to be able to take a look at.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure. Can we get
one for the record and we'll take another one
if you have it, we'll mail it to George.
BOARD SECRETARY: I'll get him one.
MR. DeCHAIqCE: Madam Chair, as I said, my
wife and I are the only adjoining bay front
residence known as 2555 Old Orchard Road and
the applicants are my neighbors. We've owned
the house since 2003. This particular area
has some history before the Zoning Board as my
opposite neighbor to the east is the Walz
residence and I understand that the prior
owner of my house, Mr. Martin, came here and
opposed certain construction that was done by
the Walz's and generally as I understand it in
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
the history of the Southold Zoning Board there
was some recollection of that and some of you
may have been sitting on the Board at that
time and I point that out to let you know that
that's the residence that my family presently
owns.
We reside in this residence during summer
months and I intend to retire there as soon as
my kids are old enough. The area is unique
for its views of the Orient Bay and it's
mature trees which run right up to the beach.
The beauty of these trees and the shade that
they provide are not found in many areas of
the town. The character of the community was
established many years ago with narrow bay
front lots within the relevant radius. Many
of the homes originally built in the 1920s
including the one that I presently own. The
established development of the area has
resulted in homes holding a fairly consistent
setback for the bay with narrow side yards.
The applicant's home, as I know it
through secondhand knowledge only, is called
or was called at one time Yellow Shutters. It
was hauled to its present spot via a barge
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
from the south fork many years ago. Its
purpose was to provide housing to the family
of a seriously injured child. Its location on
the parcel including a minimal side yard
setback to my parcel was the result of
considered decision by the community at that
time.
At t he time that I purchased my property
I was aware of that minimal setback and
accepted such as part of the character of this
community. The applicant's home, however, is
unique for many other reasons and I give you
the aerial for that purpose. As you look at
the aerial you can see Old Orchard Lane where
it becomes a paper road and ends or terminates
at the beach. The applicant's house is
immediately adjacent to the paper road.
The applicant has no northern neighbor
cause that is the canal that runs behind our
houses. The applicant has no southern
neighbor because that is Orient Bay and the
applicant has no neighbor to the west because
that is the Association access and the
Association beach. So I am the applicant's
only neighbor and if you look closer at the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
aerial you can see my house and you can see,
in its present location, the applicant's house
sits fully seaward of my house. So that --
and the point is to impress upon you that when
we're talking about setbacks, it's setback to
nothing because there's no house next door to
it. My house is fully north of and this house
is fully seaward of my house already.
I was unable to attend the initial
hearing on this application, but was advised
that there was suggestion from the Board about
disturbing the already existing side yard
setbacks by requiring the application to
enlarge the setbacks and possibly move the
home another 6 feet seaward to accommodate the
loss square footage. This suggestion would
create, as you know, a long and more narrow
building envelope uncharacteristic of this
area. More importantly though, it would set a
dangerous precedent, I believe, for similarly
situated waterfront homeowners who wish to
build their houses closer to the water.
If you take just another look at that
aerial you'll see the applicant's house is
already forward. By forcing increased side
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
yard setbacks, we are pushing them closer to
the water. We are actually taking then almost
out of this neighborhood. There's nothing
else here on the aerial, therefore, within the
relevant radius that would compare. What you
would be doing would be precedent setting for
this particular area.
I believe it would set a dangerous
precedent for similarly situated houses,
waterfront homeowners who would wish to build
closer to the water. From a personal
standpoint, it would move this home, which is
already completely forward of my house even
further forward cutting off any water view to
the west. In short, it appears that the
benefit created or proposed to be created by
this Board for a better conforming side yard
is outweighed by the dangerous front yard
setback it would create and injury it would
inflict on neighboring parcels.
When considering the variances originally
proposed by the applicant in conjunction with
Section 267B in the town law, I ask the Board
to consider this: The variances sought by the
applicant and specifically this side yard
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
setback will not create an undesirable change
in the character of the neighborhood or the
detriment to nearby properties. As stated,
the character of this neighborhood was created
60 years ago with long, narrow, nonconforming
side yards. The applicant's original plan
does not encroach any further into these side
yards and as the only residential neighbor of
this parcel, from now and for the next several
generations if I have my own way, I don't
object to it.
I can affirmatively state that no
detriment would be created to me by the
original plan. The only undesirable change
and detriment that could occur would result
from this Board's desire to disturb an already
existing side yard setback. Such an action
again would result in a narrow, long home
inconsistent with neighboring homes and
uncharacteristic of this area.
It would further erode the character of
the neighborhood by causing the removal of at
least one mature tree as I know it that's in
excess of 100 years old and managed to survive
the hurricane of 1938. The home is already
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
fully seaward of my home compelling the
applicant to move it even further seaward
would create a detriment to nearby properties
as it would cut off water view to the west and
create dangerous precedent for similarly
situated waterfront homes.
Second, the benefit sought by the
applicant cannot be achieved by some other
method other than an area variance. The
applicant proposes to reconstruct their home
in the least burdensome portion of the parcel
where it has been situated for many years.
None of the homeowners in the relevant radius
meet the required setbacks. A home could not
be constructed on this parcel in the absence
of an area variance. Applicant has no other
method to pursue other than coming to the
Board for such variance.
Third, the requested area variance for
the side yard setback may be considered
substantial when compared to current Code
requirements; however, when we look at what's
actually on the ground and compare the
original plan to the neighboring homes in the
neighborhood, we find that many substantial
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
deviations already exist though substantial
deviations from the Code; however this is an
area of established character and the
character was developed long before the
present zoning requirements. Therefore, when
compared to the established development
pattern, the area variance is not substantial.
Fourth, the proposed variance will have
no adverse impact on the physical or
environmental conditions of the neighborhood
because the original plan contemplates
rebuilding on essentially the same footprint
as the original home, which has existed in the
same spot for many years. The altered plan,
however, will adversely affect both physical
and environmental conditions by causing the
destruction of mature trees and by creating
precedent that would allow for construction of
homes closer to our waterways.
The difficulties suffered by the
applicant, finally, is not self-created. The
Board is well aware that the configuration of
the parcel is unique and it has existed in its
state for many years. It's my belief and I
ask the Board to consider and ultimately
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determine that the area variance as originally
sought by this applicant are the minimum
necessary to preserve and protect the
character of the neighborhood and the health,
safety and welfare of the community.
Again, from a personal note, Richard and
Joann Savarese really have been wonderful
neighbors. They have a love for their
property and home that's unmatched by anyone
else I see out there. At any time they can be
found tending to their property. They can be
found swimming in the water or reading on the
beach. They are special caregivers of this
particular parcel and deserve the variance as
originally sought from this Board.
So I thank you for your consideration. I
ask you to please take some time to look at
what you would be doing by altering the
setbacks and I think that the best view of
that would be a consideration of the aerial
that I've presented to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, thank you for
your testimony and we will certainly have all
of it in the transcript and that will be
available to us in about two weeks' time. The
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assigned meraber, Mr. Horning, who lives on
Fishers Island had to leave. He's assigned.
What we get is a -- each of us get assigned a
certain number of drafts to write, that
doesn't mean the whole Board doesn't
deliberate and alter them, if we feel we need
to or whatever, but I want to ask you a
question because the -- I'm just looking here
now. It would appear from these, and we did
not actually explore this in testimony, the
original site plan appears to have located the
corner of the deck from the high water mark.
The original is 116.44 feet. It is now in the
amended site plan proposed at 104.7 feet.
I'm just verifying that because your
testimony pointed out that in creating these
wider side yards this would then be bringing
it closer to the water and I wanted to take a
look and see exactly how much closer we were
talking about.
MR. DeCHAiqCE: Thank you. If we're
measuring from the deck, it may be different
because the proposed or the altered plan has,
as a result of the placement of the house, a
shorter deck. So I don't know where that is
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being measured from.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the
the
They're both from
corner of the deck, but he's cutting back
deck. The second version cuts the deck
back.
MR. DeCHANCE: Yes, moves the house
forward, cuts the deck back.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It cuts the deck
back, so they sort of split the difference I
guess.
MR. DeCHANCE: I think the overall change
is 6 feet further seaward,
affect.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
12 feet.
MR. DeCHANCE: Yeah,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
something to that
116 and 104, like
12 feet.
So 12 feet further
seaward than what the original proposal is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If I may comment on
this?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Go ahead, please.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I was the one that said
it was possible. You know, I guess I had in
mind that that deck would turn into a patio.
Okay, which would then mean that you wouldn't
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be moving any closer with the house to the
water, but you could still gain --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But you would by 4
feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but you could
still gain -- no, because we always measure to
the deck. You have 16 feet on that deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, not on the new
one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm talking about the
old one. I'm talking about the old deck was
16 feet and it was 100-something feet to that
deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 104.78 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, which is that is
the setback that we're using to the water,
right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Uh-huh.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now,
Yup, to the deck.
my thought was they
could either make that deck smaller, which is
what they did or they could just eliminate
that deck and put a patio in and still have
the same size house, but be able to move that
house back away from those side yards. I
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appreciate everything you said as being a good
neighbor, but honestly that property could
change hands tomorrow because of circumstances
unforeseen and a 6-foot fence could go up
alongside that house and he could never
maintain it and we're -- this is what we're
worried about.
So like I said, I appreciate it, but I
don't see where it's a detriment and certainly
they could work within the limits of what we
were looking the first -- I'm talking about
the setback limits from the water -- and still
get a nice house there that they can enjoy and
perhaps not a deck, but they can lay down
block on the ground, whatever, nice and neat
and still enjoy -- get out
water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
there and enjoy the
Guess what? I'm
sorry, Jim to interrupt you, but I've made an
error and the 116 that I've just described as
the original setback, that is not to the
corner of the deck, that was to the corner of
the house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The house, right.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So what has
happened here is that in changing the side
yard, enlarging them, by cutting back the
proposed deck, the depth of it, the 104.7
setback is the same from the corner of the
deck in both proposals.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We didn't move the
construction any closer to the water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's not any
closer.
MR. DeCHANCE: Yes, as it appears --
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're gaining the side
yards.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We gained the side
yards and we did not -- I have to correct
myself because I misread this. The setback
from the corner of the deck to the high water
mark is the same in both proposals.
MR. DeCHANCE: I don't have it before me
and I apologize, but I think what we did was
we reduced the size of the deck by the
distance the house was moving closer to the
water.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. Yeah, they did.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: And again they could
have moved it back further, which I'm
perfectly fine with what they're requiring
now, what they're requesting now, but there's
still a problem with being able to put a
ladder up on that house and maintaining it.
Again, you -- I realize you'd love to be there
tomorrow and 100 years from now, but sometimes
it doesn't happen and we see it all the time.
Neighbors come in and they have the right to
put up a fence and all of a sudden this
gentleman can't maintain his house.
MR. DeCHANCE: I understand that, but let
me make some comments in that regard. The
applicants deserve a deck and I think that our
Association rules --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, they got a deck.
MR. DeC}{ANCE: And they should continue
to have one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) but are you
opposed to what they're proposing now?
MR. DeCHANCE: Absolutely not.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I thought
you said.
MR. DeCHANCE: My purpose of coming here
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
was to support their application, but to talk
to you about a consideration of where exactly
the house should be on the lot and I know that
you spoke about there's no difference because
we cut the size of the deck, but look at the
aerial again and you can see the consistency
in the setbacks of those waterfront houses and
not only is this already out of character, due
to the shape of the lot, but this Board is
actually considering bringing it further out
of character by moving it further seaward and
you can see again by just looking at the
aerial none exists in that regard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're not doing that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But we're not
moving it any closer.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're not moving the
construction any further to the --
MR. DeCHANCE: Yes, but we're moving the
house. No and we're moving the house and,
secondly, if you take a look at the aerial
when I'm on the grass portion of the seaward
side of my house, the water side of my house,
moving that -- moving the physical house 6
feet forward cuts off the western view of the
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water.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. DeCHANCE:
Well, I mean --
So what we may be doing is
creating precedent for the location of the
house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh no.
sir. There is no lot --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is so unique,
I don't see how this is going to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- or road like this.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As you stated, this
Certainly not,
is very exceptionally odd lot.
MR. DeCHANCE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I don't see how
that would particularly -- what we're trying
to do is give the applicant a new house and
when that happens, when something is torn
down, this is not a substantially different
proposal than what the first proposal was. If
you really look at it, it really isn't
substantial.
MR. DeCHANCE: No. You move the physical
house 6 feet and the point being and the only
point I wanted to make today if we bring
anything from what I said was in this Board's
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desire to create a more conforming or better
conforming, cause it can't conform on this
lot, but a better conforming side yard, you
are considering physically moving the
structure further seaward and my impression --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, it's not
further seaward.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not advancing that
structure at all, sir.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not. That's
what I just was --
MEMBER DINIZIO: 104 feet -- 104.7 feet
and it's going to stay that way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In both proposals,
so it isn't going to go anywhere.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: He's talking about the
house itself.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The physical house,
not the deck. The deck is cut back.
BOARD SECRETARY: The face is moved
forward, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The house is moved
closer to the seaward, but the distance
remains the same cause the deck is cut back.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, but take the
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deck out of the picture and he's looking, I
guess, you're concerned with that would be the
south facing wall of the house, southerly
facing wall of the house is moved towards the
water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. DeCHANCE: So the only thing I
question is in the need to create a better
conforming side yard, you're bringing this
house a little bit further out of conformity
with the character of this area. That's my
only point, hopefully you will consider it and
that's all I can ask that you do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. DeCHANCE: Thank you very much.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I mean you understand
that the Savareses have to have the ability to
work on their house and having a 3-foot side
yard you can barely get a ladder on that.
It's very dangerous and though you're willing
to allow them to perhaps encroach on your
property to work on their house, like Mr.
Dinizio had said, what if something, God
forbid, happens to you and then another --
somebody else buys your property and they say
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put up a big fence, then how's he going to
work on his second floor?
MR. DeCHANCE: This is an issue that's
been there for the last 60 or 70 years since
that house was there. I will affirmatively
state and put in writing that I give them the
right to come on my property to construct and
I will actually offer all of them to live in
my house while their house is being
constructed. There's never been an issue.
This is a community that's a wonderful place
to be part of.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm sure it is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think that's
terrific because as a matter of fact we asked
earlier on we asked the architect Mark
Schwartz to get in writing your willingness to
do what you've just testified you would be
willing to do.
Having said that, however, these
variances run with the land and once the house
is built, it's built, and so it's very
difficult to avoid personalizing things
because we're real people. We're you
neighbors, too. You come before us and we
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 21, 2010
talk human being to human being; however, this
Board is obligated to depersonalize situations
because of the reasons just stated. Life
circumstances change. They may sell their
house and you may hate the new neighbor. So
what we're trying t do is balance all of these
things. That is our ultimate responsibility
is to balance the benefits of the applicant
versus the detriment to the community and I
think it's a wonderful thing when people are
good neighbors and cooperate with each other
and support each other's property rights and
we will certainly will take all that in
consideration.
I'm glad you appeared before the Board.
I see you've spent a lot of time preparing so
I'm glad we were able to have a quorum to
reopen it and time for you to enter in your
comments. I think we'll weigh it carefully.
Mr. SAvarese, do you have any comments
you'd like to make before the Board since
you're here?
[MR. SAVARESE SAID SOMETHING FROM THE
AUDIENCE AND DID NOT COME UP.]
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, thank you.
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MR. DeCHANCE: Actually I have a copy of
the comments, maybe you can provide them to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely, yes.
We would be happy to take them in writing. I
suppose that, in fact, will serve since you
have it in writing, do you have anything in
there about your willingness to allow them to
encroach on your property during construction?
MR. DeCHANCE: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, you can do it
by hand, it doesn't need to be typed out.
MR. DeCFLANCE:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
in the file.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq:
just want to make sure --
(Inaudible).
Just something we have
Yes, exactly. We
MEMBER DINIZIO: Something they can go to
when they want to paint their house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. DeCHANCE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. Hearing
no further comments, I'll make a motion to
reclose the hearing, subject to receipt of
this written comment about use of the
neighbor's property.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
October 24, 2010
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