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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
............................................ X
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
RECEIVED
September 23, 2010
9:34 a.m.
BOARD OF APPEALS
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Chairperson/Member
GEP~ARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member - start to 3:16 p.m.
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
VICKI TOTH - Secretary
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23,
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Anthony S. Campo ~6411
Richard J. and Joann Savarese #6415
Stephanos Stefanides #6413
Cutchogue New Suffolk Historical
Council #6416 & 6420
Dahna M. Basilice #6409
Roy Ward #6404
Douglas Slama and Nancy Schrank #6418
Louis and Elizabeth Mastro #6417
Ronald A. Pollio #6410
Regina's Garden LLC #6388
Theodore C. Martz, Jr. #6344
Sim Moy #6383
John E. and Sharon I. Wren #6389
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2010
Page:
3-33
34-51
52-64
65-75
76-95
96-117
118-136
137-139
140-150
151-156
157-201
202-222
223-278
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6411 - Anthony S. Campo
MEMBER HORNING:
~Request for a Variance under Code
Sections 280-124 and 280-116, based on an
application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's June 3, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning demolition and
construction of a new single-family dwelling,
at 1) less than the code required front yard
setback of 40 feet, 2) less than the code
required rear yard setback of 50 feet, 3) less
than the code required bulkhead setback of 75
feet; at: 1165 Fisherman's Beach Rd., (adj.
to Cutchogue Harbor) Cutchogue, NY.
SCTM#1000-111-1-26."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning, Mark.
State your name for the record, please.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, Mark Schwartz,
architect for the project.
We originally met with the Campos who
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
were looking to do additions/alterations to
the existing house as the project grew a
little bit and became a substantial project in
a flood zone area we would have to raise the
house. The existing foundation is not really
consistent to Code so we decided on going the
full demolition and a new structure, but
basically in the same footprint. We have a
slight expansion of the building and I have a
letter that I want to show you (inaudible).
(Walked away from microphone.)
(Inaudible) describes the existing
setbacks (inaudible) a little bit. So the
critical corners of the existing structure
that are closest to the water are the
northeast and southeast. Those, both of those
corners we're not expanding in the direction
of the water at all. On the northwest corner
we're moving about 4 or 5 feet closer to the
water and the same thing on the southwest
corner.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could I ask you a
question? Mark, do the Campos own lot 24 and
25?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It was brought to our
attention, and of course you wouldn't notice
it when you were down there, that the road
basically continues through their property and
dead ends at the creek. These maps and
surveys and the size of this property was
truncated by the road. They all eliminate the
road in this situation. In other words, the
road is not inclusive in any of these surveys.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, it's on there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's on there as
additional square footage to the lot or is it
excluded from it or how is it dealt with?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We have a chart, which I
- that's on the plans, which I know is
difficult to read, but the DEC, when we're
doing the site plan, requires us to use all
three parcels in the calculation for lot
coverage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I see.
MR. SCHWARTZ: So we also have a line
that shows lot 26 and the percent of lot
coverage for that one particular parcel that
the house is on. I'm not sure if I submitted
an existing survey from the surveyor, but I do
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
have one of those with me I can show you that
has all of this on it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That would be great,
yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: But that -- (inaudible) on
site plan, it may no be as clear as on the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As these site plans
on all of these applications get a little more
busy, sometimes we forget to look at those
particular areas. I believe it was either a
member of the Planning Board or a member of
Land Preservation that raised that particular
issue and we were discussing it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: You could have that one.
(Away from microphone distributing plan copies
to members.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mark, can we keep
this for the (inaudible)?
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why -- it's
important because that's why you're dealing
with a zero front yard setback, which under no
circumstances would be something no one would
possibly consider, but given the fact that
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
this is kind of a dead end at the harbor,
the applicant's dwelling --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, right.
Encroachment's in the road, basically.
past
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah?
access? Anybody?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Well, who has
(Inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: I mean I drove down it
yesterday.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You ended up in Mr.
Campo's yard, in his driveway.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's a good
question. I mean, I --
MEMBER HORNING: I mean could a fisherman
drive down, go down there; does anybody have a
legal right to go down there to --
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's a private road.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I live on that a road and
there's no -- Generally what happens people
walk down, they walk to the beach and they
walk around. You know, that's just the way
it's being used now. As far as I know, it's
the road that is owned by the Campos, but I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
not sure there's any legal description of how
it's to be used, as far as I know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is
topographically very complicated, you know,
with grading and so on, being in a flood zone.
It's a little hard, I think, to really read
what amount of fill is going on with the
septic. You're going to have to raise the
grade there, are you not, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To,
finished grade of 8-1/2 feet;
it looks like a
is that correct?
8
MR. SCHWARTZ: 8.5 correct. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a lot going
on on that property. Well, I think because
the law does require us to grant the least
variance that we possibly can, the smallest
variance from the Code that we can in order to
avoid hardship for the applicant, let's talk
about the fact that once, as you know, a house
is demolished then we start from scratch.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, cause I don't
-- I want the record to reflect that even
though you've submitted this letter that shows
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
that you are not changing the existing
nonconforming setbacks in two cases and you
are proposing to increase the nonconformity in
two other areas, but the house is no longer
there and therefore to say that you're not
changing the nonconforming status is not
exactly accurate and I just think it's
important to enter that into the record. I'm
not suggesting that there's any outcome
associated with what I just said, I'm not
prejudging that. I just want to explore with
you why it is that you, in enlarging this
house, you can't make it a little more
conforming than what it is now rather than
duplicating nonconformities.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the biggest reason
is because the new septic system takes up a
lot of area on the south side. That would be
the way to push it towards the south, it's
really the only option. Going to the west is
water, the north is water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And do you have a
permit already from the DEC?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that should be
shortly. I submitted it, but I don't have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
final decision. We have the Trustees'
approval and we're still waiting on the
Department of Health.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Could you relocate the
driveway, if you're redesigning the whole
place, relocate the driveway, push the septic
down in that area, move the house in a more
conforming location and relocate the driveway
accordingly?
MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean move it to the
east, the house to the east?
MEMBER HORNING: Essentially, yes,
anywhere more conforming than the zero
setback.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, that's the issue
there, that's the closest we are where the
existing house is 52 feet or 53 feet to that,
to the wetlands line. So if you pull it east
you're closer to the water there. What we
were trying to do is go to the south a bit and
then leave all the existing corners as is so
we're not, in my mind,
nonconformity.
MEMBER HORNING:
increasing the
If the septic wasn't
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
there and you slid the house towards lot 16,
what's called lot 16 on this -- this lot 16
here. Is there any practical ability to do
that? Apparently not.
MR. SCHWARTZ: If we shift the septic
system to the east of where the house is now,
again we're starting to get real close to the
water. We've got 110 feet from the water on
the north side to the septic tank, 85 on the
- we certainly could -- I think we could shift
it a bit, but then the house is -
MEMBER HORNING: What I was suggesting is
relocating the septic to the northeast corner
of the property adjacent to lot 16 somewhere
down in the corner along side the road, moving
the house over correspondingly and moving the
driveway somewhere else. You don't need a
very big driveway anyway right against the
road.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I don't disagree
with the thought, but I just -- it would be
moving that septic system considerably we're
going to start getting closer within 100 feet
to the wetlands, which is --
MEMBER HORNING: What wetlands are you
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
talking about?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's all over.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, from the
point of view of construction relative to
wetland setbacks, in my mind that is a very
beautiful and very fragile piece of property
and certainly I'd stay as far away from any
naturally regulated features as possible. It
appears to me that the proposed placement of
the septic is probably the best place on that
site that it could be located and given the --
the thing that concerns me is the amount of
grading.
How high up is this house going to have
to come off the existing grade to be -- is
that FEMA compliant?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, elevation 11, which
is 4 feet above existing grade. I'm seeing
the 6.8. The primary floor would be about 4
feet above existing grade and the grade does
drop off just a little also (inaudible)
driveway area.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
drywells, one, two, three,
least proposed on here cause you're going to
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four drywells at
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
get -- with recontouring there's going to be
some runoff issues that are going to have to
be --
MR. SCHWARTZ: The only grading which
we're planning to do here is really the -- at
the septic system. The retaining wall, we're
raising that up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The rest is going to be --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pretty much the way
it is.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: There's an existing berm
there that'll have to be (inaudible). I don't
think (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I guess this is
more of a question for the Board, too. The
issue here, of course, is the road, the
boundary of the road, correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm, well,
that's one of them.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And the present access
there really is no vehicular access for that
road cause that would have to drive right
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ZBA Town of Southold - Septen~ber 23, 2010
through the house, the deck there, but you
state that there are -- some of the residents
are using a pathway to the water somewhere.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, kind of as you walk
down the road and kind of get onto Campo's
property at the end of the road.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On the -- to the north
there, they sort of walk along the beach area?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, past that, there's a
dock there and they kind of just walk down the
-- step down that bulkhead and you can kind of
just walk around the -- step down the bulkhead
and walk around. So that's the access to the
beachfront.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But that's on the
Campo's private property.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, yes it is.
From high water down is anybody's property.
So anybody is --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So in effect, they're
using that path how these -- how Hay Waters
Road was designed to be used. My question is
can they move those access rights up there?
We can't do something like that?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: with a decision like
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
this, I'm not the Assistant Town Attorney, but
a decision like this is very similar to one
that we ended up in a 5-, 6-, 7-year
litigation over in Paradise Point and that
would be that the decision should really read
that you can't block the road. Okay and that
our decision is not -- in no way is allowing
these fixtures, you know, the deck, the
driveway area and so on and so forth, we're
not permitting that. Okay, we think that the
road should be open and that was the main
reason that Land Preservation mentioned that -
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
it to me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
formal comments from them.
For this particular --
Yeah, they mentioned
We don't have any
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, we don't have any
formal comments, but they mentioned it to me.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And they said to me
that the road should be open and I said, yeah,
I know the road should be open. I did not
spend a lot of time at the Campo property and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
I knew Mr. Johnstone who was the prior owner
of the property. (Inaudible) in New Suffolk,
I go by this wonderful spot probably 20 times
a summer, okay, and it is a magnificent area
and as the Chairperson has said, but I think
the road has to be open and that's just my
opinion and I don't think our decision can
have any --
MR. SCHWARTZ: I agree 100 percent.
We're not looking to encroach on that road at
all.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The road has to be
open. As the community, you know, gets newer
and more people sell, this has been a
relatively static community in reference to
the amount of people that have owned down
there. It's been family and this has nothing
to do with these present owners or anything of
this nature, but there are a lot of old timers
down there, okay, in the beginning in
particular and there's going to be -- they're
going to say, you know, we want to get in. We
want to go, we want to go to the beach, you
know.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Regardless of how
they get there, the real true access is
through this road, there's no question about
it. I just wanted to clear that issue and --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure,
Please state your name for the
MR. CAMPO: (Inaudible)
Mr. Campo.
record.
it's been
utilized --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
name for the record, we're
Please state your
recording.
MR. CAMPO: Anthony Campo.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. CAMPO: As Mr. Schwartz has stated,
they have the right of way, they have that
whole right of way, of course, but everybody
been using it for years right at the end of
the bulkhead to walk down and around to the
beach. So they have -- and you know, I have
no intentions of ever stopping anybody from
doing that and that's the main reason, Mr.
Johnston, whatever he did there over the years
and when I bought it to him in '86, all that
stuff was in place. I mean, I never added
anything.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, we're not saying
that you did. We're just saying that, you
know, in general I'm running a little gun shy
because of this litigation that we had up in
Paradise Point over the whole situation and
we're just very simply informing you that we
can't do anything that's on a public road. We
know it's a private public road, but it's a
public road to those people who live on that
road and there are a significant amount of
houses on that road.
MR. CA34PO: They do have the right of way
and nobody has ever stopped them. That's all
I wanted to say.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Sure, thank
you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I share my concerns with
Jerry and that, you know, I've been reading
the Suttons and trying to do the Suttons, you
know, I mean this is a little bit more than
that even, quite honestly. You know, you got
stuff built right on the right of way and I
realize it's been there for years. I mean I
go down there a lot, too. I mean I know Tom
Samuels very well and I (inaudible) on
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
occasion and, you know, I've turned around in
this driveway many times. It's not -- I don't
think that's the problem.
I think the problem occurs when, like
Jerry says, new people start moving in and
they take a look at that map and they say,
hey, there's a road here. I should be able to
go down there and, unfortunately, people
aren't as gentile as they used to be. You
know, I won't walk in Mr. Campo's property.
I'll walk on, you know, along the bulkhead
even though it's not my right (inaudible). Of
course, Mr. Campo, I understand, you know, I'm
doing the neighborly thing and letting them
walk there instead of on the right of way, but
honestly when we make our decisions, you know,
our decisions have got to be based on the
facts of the case and what is actually on the
land and what you're allowed to do.
So I mean I personally would like to see
you establish just exactly what this right of
way is. If this is in some deeds, I'd like to
see some deeds that say that and then I'm
thinking maybe you want to clear that off a
little bit and actually move that shed and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: That shed is not there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not there now?
It's not going to be there?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not proposed to be
there? I'm just looking at the survey right
now, that's why.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I didn't see it.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. CAMPO: It's
MEMBER DINIZIO:
That was '09.
not there.
Okay and it's no going -
- you don't propose to put it back there?
MR. CAMPO: No.
MS. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) the Trustees
(inaudible) there And they asked us to move
that flush with the patio. It's still there,
but I believe we removed that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You did.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I'm looking at
their stuff and I'm assuming that that's the
(inaudible) allowed to do. Okay, well you
know, I just think you can keep it as clear as
you possibly can. You know, I guess you
would, well, I was thinking maybe you can move
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the house back to the corner of the wood deck
to get it away from the water, but it just
makes it closer to the other side. It's not -
- you're not gaining anything there and I
agree that the septic system is where it
should be, but if you could just establish for
us because I think we're going to have to at
least condition that you can have this, but
everybody has to have access to that right of
way in our decision. So, you know, 10 years
from now when there's an argument they can at
least go back to this and say, yeah, you have
a right to go on this right of way whether
it's (inaudible) or whoever it is that if it's
entirely that group of people.
MR. SCHWARTZ: As far as I know there is
no group.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I know. It says
private road, I know there's a sign there that
says Fishers Beach, but somehow we need to
establish that maybe it's your beach. I don't
know.
MR. CAMPO: We'll look into that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's talk about the
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house quickly and that is the house conforms
to the height.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And square footage
wise it goes from what exists now, which is as
what?
MR. SCHWARTZ: The total of the house and
the deck is about 29 -- a little under 3,000
square feet total.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As it exists or
proposed?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Proposed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Proposed 29.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what you're
proposing just around 3,000 square feet?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And what is the
existing house and deck?
MR. SCHWARTZ: About 29 -- about 2,000.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3%N: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I do have the chart of the
site plan (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Oh good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh good.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, given the
nature of this road, you know, having a corner
touching technically is very different then
the physical front yard and the way in which
the house has to be sited on this very
irregular piece of property in terms of the
front yard, rear yard and all of that. What
might really be helpful to the Board, Mark,
because the print that you've just submitted
is much clearer and when you start putting all
of these limits of clearing on and everything
else it gets very visually garbled. If you
could just simply produce a -- you could just
call it a plot plan, it doesn't have to be a
proper site plan, in scale, just to show
exactly where you're proposing to locate new
construction and septic relative to where that
road is, okay, what that right of way is, it
would help.
I mean even the elimination of that brick
path to the framed structure on the opposite
side of the road. If we can just simply show
clearance all the way across and that nothing
is encroaching in that area, it's going to
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help us I think really see what it is you're
proposing. Just the simple setbacks and
exactly where structures are going because
here you show --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Those lines are on the
site plan, maybe you can't see them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They are, but
they're hard to read.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean you have
stuff that's -- what's hard here is you don't
see the right of way very clearly, you know
what I mean?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
You can see a lot
of stuff, but you can't tell the boundaries of
that right of way because there's so much
written over it. So many things are being
proposed to be moved. I could see you're
moving the new house over, you know, from
what's there now. So what would be helpful is
just to show us what you're proposing, what
the setbacks are, and where the right of way
is and where the framed structure on the other
side is.
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What's the purpose of that framed
structure, by the way?
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's just a garden room
with a little half bath in it and it's got a
little storage shed on the back of it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and that is on
the subject property still, it's just on the -
- or is it on the other lot?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On the other two
lots. It's the other lot.
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's a different lot.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it's across the
street.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So how is it we
have an accessory structure on another lot
without a principal dwelling? Not that you
can get a principal dwelling on that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't know. It's been
there. He bought it that way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: He bought it that
way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED: These lots were all
merged.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I would assume.
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MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: They must have,
they would have to be merged. If they merged,
no problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They can't merge if you
have the right of way.
MR. SCHWARTZ: At least (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're acting as
though they're merged.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They're all combined
in the calculations anyway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, they are for
the DEC's purposes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Even though they're
truncated by a road, they're still combined.
MEMBER HORNING: So Mark, on the site
plan here that we're looking at, the note that
says, ~two feet from existing building to
property line", when that's saying property
line does that mean the edge of the right of
way?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
MEMBER HOP~NING: That's the same thing,
right?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Then there's another note
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
just above that where the corner is right on
the property line, the zero-point-zero.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, okay, and so make
it clear to me then that near that note the 2-
foot from existing buildinH to the property
line, i.e. the riHht of way, the new house, is
that in the black?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, the heavy black
lines.
MEMBER HORNING: The heavy black lines.
RiHht, so --
MR. SCHWARTZ: The hatch is the existing
house and deck.
MEMBER HORNING: So how far away then is
the proposed house from that riHht of way?
MR. SCHWARTZ: The house itself I would
say is about four feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well --
MEMBER HORNING: It's set back a little
more than the existing; isn't it? I mean
that's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, one survey
says zero.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, I know.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's the deck.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's the deck.
That's why I'm saying, Mark, we can actually
get this cleared up pretty simply. You know
what I'm asking you to do and if you just get
rid of all of the visual clutter, simplify the
footprint of the proposed house, where the
right of way is, and what -- where the septic
is going, where the framed structure is on the
other side of the right of way and just forget
what's there now. What are you proposing?
MR. SCHARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And that, it'll
just be a lot easier for the Board to figure
it out with what's going on.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I see it says existing
patio to be removed, but it says existing
shed, it doesn't say to be removed.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I should have taken that
off cause it's been gone for years.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, take it out.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, that's what I
mean just take it out. I just assumed --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
that you were going to put
It was there.
no I just assumed
it there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, no and if it'll help,
I assume it will help, we can shift the whole
thing 5 feet so that we maybe we have 5-feet
setback from the road. You know, we have the
room to shift the whole thing over.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you do.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I would make it as
conforming as you reasonably think you can and
show, you know, house plans don't have to
change any, you know. You just put the --
perhaps siting it slightly differently and
showing us exactly what you're proposing to
do.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: So let me ask --
did you have something you wanted to say?
Please come, you have to come to the
microphone.
MR. CAMPO: Would there be objection to
having that walkway? It's just laying in
sand, actually.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't really
care. You know, it's --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As long as it can be
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
driven over or walked over.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- flush, you can
walk over or drive over it?
MR. CAMPO: (Inaudible) over or walked
over?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. CAMPO: So I can actually put the
patio back in sand? You can walk over it and
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can't put it in
the right of way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Trustees asked you
not to.
MR. CAMPO: Oh, you can't.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No.
MR. CAMPO: Well, that's what I meant
about the walkway going back to the shed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly I would rather
see you go with just stepping stones.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You probably
shouldn't put anything in.
MR. CAMPO: I'm sorry, what?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just stepping stones,
just something to get to the other --
MR. CAMPO: That's what I'm talking
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ZBA Town of Southold September 23, 2010
about, you know, to get to the shed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But not patio.
MR. C~24P0: There's really no way to get
to the beach in that direction because it's
all overgrown and (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well,
you know, that -- it's not that.
tell you, if you want to hear some of the
discussions that we have to listen to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't want to
hear.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
civil anymore and so,
like I said,
I have to
People just are not
you know, we can't just
assume you're going to be -- that you're Mr.
Nice Guy, which I'm sure you are, presently,
but it's unbelievable. You don't know what
friends you have until you file for a
variance.
MR. CAMPO: It gets to the point where
I did something like that and somebody
complained I'd have to take it out.
you probably
I mean what it
down to is that the responsibility of
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would.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
boils
31
if
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the Zoning Board is to weigh a balancing test
between the benefit to a property owner and
the potential detriment or the welfare of the
community. That is what state statutes
require. So that's why we are careful in our
decisions to investigate what public rights of
way we have to protect in these decisions. So
you know what it is that we've requested,
Mark.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think what we
should probably do is adjourn this to next
month so that in case we have questions and
you can submit this kind of slightly revised
and clarified site plan and we may have some
further questions. So rather than close it, I
think I'd rather take that in and give it
another shot to see if we have any other
questions.
Is there anyone else -- Yeah, I'll make a
motion and you'll second. What time?
BOARD ASSISTANT: 2:00.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 2:00, all right,
we'll put this on for 2:00 carryover on
October 21, okay.
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Now, I'm going to see if there's anybody
else in the audience who would like to make
any comments about this application?
Okay, hearing none, I'll make a motion to
adjourn this hearing to 2:00 on October 21st,
subject to receipt of a revised plot plan.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6415 - Richard J. and
Joann Savarese
MEMBER HORiqING:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application from building
permit and the Building Inspector's May 26,
2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed demolition and construct new single-
family dwelling, at; 1) less than the code
required front yard setback of 35 feet, 2)
less than the code required rear yard setback
of 35 feet, at: 2575 Old Orchard Rd., (adj.
to Orient Bay) East Marion, ADi. SCTM#1000-37-
6-7.1."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And Mark would you
like --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project.
This is quite similar to the last
application. This is a one-bedroom home
that's very small and the Savareses, who are
here today, would like to expand it to gain a
bedroom upstairs and have one downstairs and
just have some basic living space on the first
floor.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
We adhered on the east side to the
existing setbacks, which are very tight to
property line, and we have shown a slight
expansion on the west side towards the road
and that way it would also bump it out a bit
towards the beach 4 feet, the house side 4
feet and the deck side 4 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask some
questions?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, really boy
the
you're picking yourself
properties to build on.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
some really good
Holy mackerel.
Let me just mention
this just for the point of passing, but I do
want to know what the existing square footage
is and what the proposed is, if you would give
it to us, and then I'll make a brief
statement.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, the existing house
is 580, the existing deck is 256 and the
proposed house footprint is 721, the proposed
deck is 256.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You are aware that
this is the house that created the Walz
decision? Okay, the prior owners of this
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
house --
MR. SCHWARTZ: No,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
live next door.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
in between.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
There's another house --
I didn't know that.
Yes, the Walz used to
There's one house
It's two houses away?
I saw it yesterday, I
was down there and met these people and I
said, I've been here before. I couldn't quite
place it, but it was very familiar.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're absolutely
correct and I do apologize.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so Mark
this is what I call a very slivery, very small
building envelope.
MR. SCHWARTZ: We have the same issues
with a foundation that's is really not to code
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MEMBER HORNING:
the one that's right next
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a house in
between them.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, I apologize then.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's almost in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
in a flood zone so in order to do substantial
renovation we've got to raise it up. It
doesn't really make sense to renovate what's
there and it's narrow as it is. So we're just
trying to shoehorn a decent sized house on
this property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're proposing a
front yard setback of 4.1 feet, the code says
35, and a rear yard setback of 0.7. Rear yard
is defined as -- I tell you I wouldn't want to
have to determine what the rear yard is here.
I guess you can, but that's where it has to
be. There is no back yard. There's simply no
-- it's all side yard basically.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, so the hatched areas
are the existing house and the dark black line
is proposed footprint.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Right. You're
expanding the size of the deck, are you?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, the deck is the same
size.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: The same, it's just
moved over.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
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MEMBER HORNING: The deck is moved over
or remains in the same place?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We're adding about 4 feet
to the south side of the house, so we're
pushing the deck out the 4 feet, but it will
still be the same size.
MEMBER HOI{NING: Oh,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
okay.
I mean I can read
them but well that one is not nearly as
confusing as the other one. This is one is
pretty easy to read because it just slid over
what -- construction drawings are just a
little bit more detailed than what the average
person can find their way through.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask a
question? When I was there it was, of course,
in the height of the summer and there were a
lot of cars on that road. Were those the
people that were, this is of course a question
of the Savareses, were those people that were
utilizing the beach from the subdivision and
where parking there to walk down to the end of
the road? I need you to use the mike, Mr.
Savarese, if you don't mind, sir, or Mrs.
MR. SAVARESE: I'm Richard Savarese --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just state your
name please for the --
MR. SAVARESE: Richard Savarese.
Normally not. Normally, the homeowners that
are the Homeowners Association don't park
their car there. Sometimes I may park my car
there, but on the weekends when I know the
beach is going to be used heavily I move it to
South Road.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On the South Road.
MR. SAVARESE: Just to give people access
if they're dropping off chairs or boats or
there's some people with wheelchairs.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well that's
what I had suspected. There were people that
couldn't walk down that were utilizing the --
MR. SAVARESE: No, normally there's not a
car there. Just to drop people off, that
would be it. 4tn of July, is a different
story.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah. It was
sometime in the month of August, but it was a
Saturday morning or Saturday at like 11:00.
MR. SAVARESE: Might have been my car,
but there's never more than two cars there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MR. SAVARESE: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Mark, let me ask you a
question. How do you propose to build a house
like this when the side yards -- when you have
to encroach on the neighbors; do you propose
to get their permission or --
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's a good question. I
think we'll have to cantilever that whole
side. We can excavate three or four feet in,
then build a foundation and cantilever that
over.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The neighbor knows what's
going on and he's -- I don't know if they
wrote a letter -- but he's not against this
application at all. He was at the Trustees'
hearing, so I'm sure we probably could get
that approval from him to use the yard, but I
think we can do it without going over the
property line.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So you would --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: That is by far the
best way to do it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So there is an
existing -- well, I guess what's dug out
already. There's some type of crawlspace
there or is it full foundation?
MR. SCHWARTZ: There's a partial
crawlspace on the east
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
0.7 setback side?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No,
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
-- the west side.
West side, that's the
the other side.
The other side.
MR. SCHWARTZ: 5-point -- the other side.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: There's a kind of a garage
door there's a kind of a storage area
underneath there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh yeah. What about
on the, I guess it's the north side the
northeast side property line with the 0.7 side
yard setback; what's the foundation like
there, the existing foundation, do you know?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I think it's some locust
posts.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, it's locust posts.
So you have to build like a crawlspace there
and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- and the excavation
on that is going to be tricky.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well
zone so --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
on cantilevering?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, on that side,
correct.
it's in a flood
Is that where you plan
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Then again, just I
mean just to put the siding on and install the
windows. That's going to be interesting.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, you're right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: A~d you say you have
permission from that adjoining property owner?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We don't have permission,
no. I just meant that he's aware of the
project and he's not against the project, so I
believe we can get permission to stand on the
property to put in the windows and things like
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's probably a
good thing to have in writing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As point of fact,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
and for us to also have that information in
writing. Don't you agree?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Again, you know
what we want to do is make decisions that
reflect the context in which these proposals
are being made and so if it has an impact and
it does. I think without permission to be on
that neighbor's property it would be pretty
doggone impossible for you to build that
close. So it behooves everyone to have that
information, so there's no misunderstandings
later on.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me just ask a
question, you wouldn't be better off with a 3-
foot setback on that side and elongate the
house a little bit more toward the triangle?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Towards the pointy part?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah or a 2-1/2-foot
setback?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, we can --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I mean we're already
there. You know, ironically, Walz may be one
house away, but --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO:
have to say yet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
And I haven't said what
I know.
I mean, I'm just
throwing it out to you because I mean in
reality it would really make more sense to
create a little bit of a side yard there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's actually to
the rear yard. Yeah, I mean if there's anyway
to do it, obviously, the
the better.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
less nonconforming
I'm going to say this
in all true fairness of my dealing with this
nice gentleman, Mr. Schwartz, because he is
willing to do and make changes that conform
more to zoning than some of the other people
that we have dealt with over the years and I -
- that's why I say that, I appreciate it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. It's a monument
to my misery for the past 10 years is two
houses away. That decision, okay, the Walz
decision basically said that there are no more
preexisting nonconforming setbacks in this
town. Okay, that you can't say because you
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
have a setback that you're entitled to build
on that setback.
Okay. So with that in mind with a zero-
lot-line, essentially, that means that you
want a 100 percent variance on that one side
on the rear yard and let's say 90 percent on
the other side, the front yard. I can't for
the life of me see myself voting for that. I
-- you're actually expanding it. I mean I
can't see that.
You're going to have to do something
different here. You're going to have to move
this up away from both of those sides, further
away enough so you could maintain that house
from your own property. That's the way I feel
about it and if that means getting rid of that
deck and making a narrower house, I don't know
how you do it cause I'm not an architect.
MR. SCHWARTZ: You're talking about the
little deck and stairs?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm talking about
the deck, the 16-foot deck on the back of that
house, you know, you could -- I don't mind you
going towards the water a little bit, but I
mean you could go towards the water another 16
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
feet as far as I'm concerned with -- you have
your septic system there, I guess you can go
10 feet to the house. I don't know what the
codes are, but I mean if you're going to gain
any space here, if you're going to minimize
the variances that are needed for this to
reconstruct this house, certainly that's
something to be had by eliminating that deck,
but honestly I -- no way.
You haven't said anything so far in this
hearing that is going to make me vote for this
one way or the other and certainly we have, in
the past at least, asked our applicants to
comply with some setback that would allow them
to put a ladder up against the house without
putting it on their neighbor's property. I
know this sounds kind of harsh, but -- and I
understand it's probably a pretty valuable
piece of property with the house that already
existed on there, but everything that you're
doing here is contrary to that decision and I
for one am not backing off of it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean certainly
there's probably a way to renovate what's
there, but I agree it's not cost effective and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
it's going to be the same situation. It does
not have any, you know, the existing corners
don't mean anything to you cause we're
demolishing it. To call it renovation, does
that change --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, like I said, two
houses away it was argued that you no longer
have a preexisting setback. It doesn't exist.
Our decision says that, you know, you can't
rely on what you've had to build anything new
without a variance and if we're supposed to be
giving minimum variances. You know, just
granting relief from the Code cause you have a
certain hardship, then honestly a 100 percent
hardship is not a hardship when you have an
existing house that you could renovate.
I agree it won't be as big, it won't be
as comfortable, and I agree with all of those
things, but that house is there. It always
was there, it was built, it's nonconforming.
You know, if you want to go down that road
nonconformance is supposed to be eliminated in
zoning, that's why we have zoning. So we're
not supposed to continue that.
So I think you're going to need to come
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
back with something that's a little bit -- I
mean it's something I can bite into here. I
mean, I'm only one vote, but --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. We do have an
opportunity to make this better, no doubt. Is
there a minimum side yard that you -- or a
yard that you --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm not going to
give you any advice in that respect.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, there are
five members on the Board, so you could
probably get five opinions. I think the thing
that is being asked is to attempt, as with the
case previously, to improve the proposal
relative to the degree of nonconformity and
pare it down to, without completely
compromising the programatic requirements of
your clients, which there's no point in even
building something if it's not what you want,
but if you can do something to improve that
rear yard setback, possibly eliminate the need
to be on the neighbor's property at all in
order to do construction, we should entertain
that proposal as an amended application.
Let me see if there's anyone else in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
audience who has any comments about this.
Anyone else -- anything else from the Board
because otherwise I'm going to propose that he
come back.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. I'd like to
clarify, and maybe Vicki could answer this
specifically, the difference between a
renovation and a demolition for these people
and for us again.
BOARD ASSISTANT: You know what, that's
still before Town Code Committee, renovations.
The problem with this is they're in a flood
zone. For them to renovate the existing house
they still have to raise the first floor
elevation.
MEMBER HOP~NING: I'm not proposing
anything. I'm just saying that you could tear
down everything and leave one wall and it --
BOARD ASSISTANT:
MEMBER HORNING:
(inaudible)?
No, no.
-- would be demolition
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER HORNING: It's a demolition.
BOARD ASSISTANT: Anything over 50
percent technically is a demolition.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: That's what I'm asking.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our Assistant Town
Attorney is working right now in clarifying
some of those.
ASSISTANT TOWN ATTORNEY: It's in the
Code Committee again. It's not defined in the
Code, yet, but that's where the Town Code is
going with the definition of demolition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It would help
everybody if these terms were a lot clearer,
because in Notice of Disapproval we sometimes
get something called one thing and you get
something that looks exactly the same, but
it's called something else, and we need to
clarify the difference between a demolition, a
reconstruction in place and in kind, and a
renovation.
So -- but at the moment we have a
proposal for a demo and it seems to me that's
the most cost effective way for you to be
going. The question here is given this piece
of property and your proposal is still for a
rather small house which is about all this
property could possibly accommodate, how can
you improve the rear yard setback basically.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
I think that's where we are.
So how about we do this, let's ask you to
come back with an amended site plan, perhaps,
possibly with drawings. You may need to
change the dimensions of certain rooms and so
on and you'll -- hopefully this will be the
last time I'm telling you this, we'll get you
on for next month again.
Okay, we're going to put you on at 2:30
out of mercy for you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I'm going to
make a motion to recess this hearing to
October 21st at 2:30 in order to receive
revised drawings and site plans. Is there a
second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6413 Stephanos Stefanides
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variance from Code Sections
280-116(B) and 280-124, based on an
application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's June 11, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed
alterations/additions and nas built" deck
addition to seasonal dwelling, at; 1) less
than the code required bulkhead setback of 75
feet, 2) less than the code required minimum
side yard setback of 10 feet, 3) less than the
code required total combined side yards of 25
feet, 4) less than the code required rear yard
setback of 35 feet, 5) more than the code
required total lot coverage of 20%, at: 780
Rabbit La., (adj. to Gardiner's Bay) East
Marion, NY. SCTM#1000-31-18-17."
Mr. Schwartz?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz.
Our application really is just to expand
the roofline slightly on the landward side and
gain some ceiling height in a bedroom. It
came to our attention that these decks are
apparently were built without a permit back in
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the 60s. I was told by the owners and that's
where we're at.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so all the other
stuff they had on there is all stuff that
existed. It's been there for many, many
years, the decks, lot coverage, it's just been
there.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The house has been there
for many years. Are they going to upgrade
that deck in any way?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as part of this
project.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, new decking or
anything like that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Honestly, I didn't speak
to the owner about that. I --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I've got photographs it
looks okay, it's not great, but I don't see --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not. I went down
there. I just wanted to know, you know,
suddenly they get a building permit and seats
to on it and who knows. You know, so I just
wanted to see, a railing or whatever, but --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: They haven't asked me to
do anything at all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not going to be
sure that it's
part of this and we'll make
not.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So basically all you're
doing is raising that one side to put a
cathedral ceiling inside the house.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Currently, there's only a
pull-down stairs to the small attic space up
there --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
house, but this is
Right.
-- in the center of
just to open up that
the
bedroom in the front
MEMBER DINIZIO:
little storage space,
there.
But you're losing a
attic space.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, there was not much
there anyway.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I know it is a
tiny house. Is it still used seasonally, it's
not --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is it heated?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't think so.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is there running water
and electricity?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What's the square
footage you're adding to it, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No square footage really,
we're adding --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
Just roofline.
Just volume.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: I don't have any
problem with the proposed architectural
additions, but we do have a letter here. Did
you receive this, Mark, from the LWRP
coordinator showing the as-built deck is
inconsistent indicating that it's located
seaward of Coastal Erosion Hazard Line and is
not a water-dependent structure and
recommending that it be relocated landward of
the Coastal Erosion Hazard Line?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I did get that,
yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So what do we do
about that?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean a structure that's
been there for so long I don't see the point
of moving it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It seems to me, if you
take that deck up they're going to ask for
fill in there, put a non-turf buffer, you
know, there's going to be a lot more
construction going on there disturbing, than
if -- that's why I asked if he's going to
rebuild the deck or put new flooring or
whatever, built-in seating, because I intended
to restrict that deck to what it is right now.
Not to be upgraded in any way and, you know,
when it becomes so rotted they're going to
have to come back and do their thing. You
know, they're going to have to come back and
get a permit for it and then they can demolish
it and do whatever needs to be done and make
any suggestions. That was my thought on the
LWRP letter. That's why I asked you those
questions.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, I mean it appears,
well I guess it's not a permitted structure at
this point. I mean, if they have to repair a
few boards, I assume they can repair a few
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
boards.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
cannot be repaired.
I'm going to say it
Quite honestly if you're
going to go and get a building permit to do
whatever you have to do, then -- and that's
what the condition is going to be. So
(inaudible) underneath if (inaudible) was
underneath and you start tearing boards up on
that thing and, you know,
a building permit.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah,
you're going to need
I was just talking
about the deck boards itself, but is there a
way we can (inaudible) --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll restrict it to no
more than 2 percent of the deck boards can be
replaced in any one year, something like that.
I mean I'm fairly serious about making it so
that that deck cannot be in existence 20 years
from now. You know what I mean? I realize
it's there, it's been there for years and you
said yourself, you know, Jeez, it's been there
so long and I agree that at this time it would
probably be more disturbing for that piece of
property and everything else. What you would
have to do to bring that thing up to code then
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
maybe when the time comes you'll get to
reconfigure it a little bit you'll still need
a variance no matter what on that piece of
property.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, you understand
what I'm saying?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I do. I do.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Of course the other
Board members have to vote for that, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I kind of
agree with Jim that there's probably less
impact, adverse environmental impact with the
nas-built" deck than what would happen
otherwise; however, I also feel that it's
incumbent upon the Board to probe
circumstances that arise that are not legal
when we are about to grant a variance, you
know, to do something it would be good to try
and examine what the consequences are for
existing structures that need to be made legal
also.
That deck is not in the best of shape,
you know, it really isn't.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you, I
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
looked at it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So the question is
do we ignore it in order to proceed with the
variances applied for or do we try and deal
with it. We have a recommendation from the
LWRP coordinator, it is a recommendation. We
don't ever have to actually do what they tell
us, they recommend. We can ignore it, we can
change it, we can do what we want, but we
always take it seriously and it's not that
it's that atypical either because the same
situation exists next door.
I mean it's kinda like what's up on
Leeton, there's a whole bunch of houses with
wood decks built right up to the bulkhead. So
if you look at character of the neighborhood
as one of the criteria, it would not be out of
keeping with the character of the neighborhood
and I don't know what the other members of the
Board -- maybe we should just see what the
feelings are on the Board as to whether or not
we ignore it or whether or not we want to try
and find some better answer that would
actually help the applicant in the future and
try and deal with it because who wants to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
in a situation where you're replacing one
board and another board and another board.
You know, either have a proper deck that is
functional and structurally sound or don't.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I walked over the
entire deck and there is a great deal of
movement on the deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's not
safe.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's on its way out.
It should be replaced by a deck that does not
have treated lumber on it and I'm willing to
pretty much with some sort of adherence to the
LWRP recommendation, but not significant,
allowing some of the deck to be there. It can
stay 'til next summer and then after that it
should be removed. It should be brought back
from the bulkhead a little bit and the
remaining portion of it can probably be
enhanced a little bit so it can remain for a
little longer and then, you know, it has to be
dealt on a reevaluation in the future.
If it was completely solid then I would
say let it go for a little while, but it's
not.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I happen to be a very
good test for that, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's very
(inaudible). So I really don't want to carry
this over, but we can't get through one single
application that doesn't require another
hearing. The irony is that the variance
before us is not such a complicated thing,
it's now the tangential stuff around it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's why I
thought not granting them a variance for that
(inaudible) thing that exists the first time,
but when it needs to be replaced they need to
come back in and do the thing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what I'm
saying, I think it needs to be replaced and so
the question is do we deal with it now or
later.
MEMBER DINIZIO: By the way, this is
Walz, too. It all started from the last one,
this is it. Even though you have a
preexisting nonconformity before it wouldn't
be part of your Notice of Disapproval, now it
is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N:
thing, too, is that
zone and --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Well, part of the
it's LWRP, it's in a flood
No, no. I'm talking
about the 5 as opposed to 1.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We deal with it in
deliberation, that's all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think we have enough
information.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we'll figure
out how to handle it. We'll discuss this
among ourselves at a special meeting and we'll
see what we can come up with .
MR. SCHWARTZ: If there were no deck
there, it would not be possible to build this
deck?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I would doubt it.
Maybe if it was all at grade, you could put
down stone pavers on sand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but you're talking
about some serious fill though.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: But right now,
yeah, it's probably hollow underneath that
deck. I don't have a clue what's underneath
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
that deck.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mark, we had an
application going down Bay Avenue for the
house -- there used to be a ramp at the end of
Bay Avenue and that ramp has since been
removed, but the house to the west, Pat Moore
represented the owners on a total rehab of
that house, and we took significant testimony
on what the Town wanted in reference to the
enhancement of that bulkheaded area, this was
just before LWRP, so you may want to take a
look at that and that could answer some of
your questions on what would be done, but
there were requests in there for fill so that
when the water splashed over the top of the
deck -- the bulkhead, the fill wouldn't be
removed in some way.
We know that the deck is holding that in
there at the present time. There were all
kinds of enhancements that were required by
the DEC at that particular time and I think
you'll see that was probably about six years
ago that we dealt with that deck and the
enhancement of that. There is a raised deck
on that house now, but it was the actual
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
enhancement of the ground area in front of the
bulkhead that was the issue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone in
the audience that would like to speak to this
application, for or against?
MR. SCHWARTZ: One other question, if we
were to remove parts of the deck around the
house, but wanted to leave the front section
between the bulkhead and the house, would that
help your decision in any way?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Your concern is that from
the house to the bulkhead.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Mark's concern is the
Coastal Erosion --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hazard Line, yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not the house --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, any other
questions from the Board?
Okay, hearing no further comments I'll
make a motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision to a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - Septer~ber 23, 2010
HEARING ~6416 & 6420 Cutchogue
New Suffolk Historical Council
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for Variance from Special
Exception per Code Section 280-13B(15) and
Variance from Code Section 280-18 based on an
application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's July 19, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning construction of a new
building; #6416 - owners request a Special
Exception for Historical Society, ~6420 - less
than the code required front yard setback of
50 feet, at: 27230 Main Rd., and Case's La.,
Cutchogue, NY. SCTM#1000-109-5-6.1."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Gentlemen?
MR. STUDENROTH: Good morning, my name is
Zac Studenroth, I'm the Director of the
Cutchogue Historical Council and Mike Makush
is a member of the Board of Trustees. I don't
know if you need any further introduction.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just the spelling
of your names please for the record so we can
get that correct in the transcript.
MR. STUDENROTH: The last name is
Studenroth, S-T-U-D-E-N-R-O-T-H.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. MALKUSH: And Mike, M-A-L-K-U-S-H.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. I think
we should let the record show, first of all,
that on your Notice of Disapproval there is an
indication that this had to be reviewed by the
Southold Town Landmarks Preservation
Commission for possible certificate of
appropriateness. We have a letter from them
indicating that they have no jurisdiction over
open space, it's not an historic structure.
The space is not, the buildings are separately
registered with the appropriate registry, but
they do not feel that there's a certificate of
appropriateness necessary nor is a review on
their part necessary relative to this
application.
So what is really before us is simply a
front yard setback variance.
MR. STUDENROTH: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You propose to build a
garage. Why don't you tell me what you want
to do?
MR. STUDENROTH: Okay, perhaps just
(inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You need to go to the
podium.
MR. STUDENROTH: You may have in your
packet a smaller version of that, but I
thought this would help you visualize what
we're proposing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. STUDENROTH:
Okay.
This is a timber frame,
small timber-frame building that is
approximately 30 x 22 feet, single story.
We've chosen a structure of this sort because
it has a -- it's going to be left unfinished
on the interior so we want it to look
compatible to the other buildings that are
there.
The purpose of it is to house an
automobile, an antique truck that we've been
given, which is fully restored and will be a
major component of our collection that we're
(inaudible). The other aspect of this which
is I think most exciting to the Council is
that the other buildings which I'm sure you're
familiar with having toured from time to time
or maybe come to events there, they really
belong to a wonderful era. The wonderful old
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
house and the Wickham House when we talk about
the earlier centuries, the earlier (inaudible)
in Cutchogue and the north fork, this is a
building with a truck from the 1920s that will
give us an opportunity to begin to talk about
the economic and social history of Cutchogue
and (inaudible) in that period.
So that's the purpose of the structure.
To not only house the automobile, but the
siting of it critical to us because it is an
operational automobile. We will be taking it
out, driving it in parades, bringing it out to
exhibit at events that we have. So we didn't
want to tuck the structure off in the back
corner someplace. So the siting is important,
it's virtually level with the existing parking
lot the use of which we extend to the library
and others coming to and from the property,
but that is our property as well labeled on
the survey there as the asphalt pavement.
So that's the justification or the
rationale for where we wish to place it.
Unfortunately, it does require this variance
because of the setback. You see that the
property line swings very kind of far away
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
from the actual road bed and so if you're
familiar with that area if you walk the
grounds you'll see that the proposed corner of
that building appears to be much farther back
from Case's Lane than the actual property line
is. So I'm just saying visually the structure
will not appear as if it's on the road, it's
just that our property line swings quite a
distance away from the actual road bed.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And what was the
significance of the truck again? You said it
was historic, it was donated?
MR. STUDENROTH: Yes, it was donated.
Let me show you it was from (Inaudible)
Wickham's collection of antique automobiles.
He's been, the last year or so, he's been
looking to place some of his collection. This
is a truck that came off the old Fleet Farm in
Cutchogue.
MEMBER SCFINEIDER: Okay.
MR. STUDENROTH: And so that's why we
were very excited to take it as a gift. It's
not the usual sort of an object. You know,
It's going to require care and attention, but
we were excited it's operational so we can
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
drive it in parades, but it will become the
focus of this new exhibit.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Will this exhibit be
open at the same time as the other exhibits
are?
MR.
schedule
the fall,
visitors
STUDENROTH:
is weekends
the summer.
Yes. Our typical
and Mondays throughout
We cannot charge
for the tour. The other aspect of
the siting is that the kind of building it is
we'll be able to open the front doors and
we'll have a direct sight line from whoever is
stationed down in that little carriage
house/gift shop area directly across the
parking lot because we'll have people coming
into that lot and then kind of wandering off
in search of where to start the tour.
We'll have those doors open so that
people can walk over to that building without
actually going in. So it'll be open and it'll
be a part of the tour.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, so your idea is
to actually cluster those two buildings
together?
MR. STUDENROTH: Cluster them together,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
yes. The open space between the school house
and the Wickham House, which is up on the
hill, is actually a sloped lawn, you may
visualize that. In the future, events such as
the Douglas Moore concert that we've been
staging out there for many years will now
orient itself toward that lawn and it'll be
more of a natural amphitheatre that stretches
up from the parking lot. That's going to
necessitate moving the big wooden sign that,
unfortunately, sits right in front of the
parking lot. We're going to move that sign
somewhere down closer to our little carriage
house so that that lawn is an open space that
just stretches up from the parking lot.
So in that sense, these buildings
including the proposed one will kind of frame
that area on both sides.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just ask a
couple of quick questions. The original
application that we have indicated housing
museum displays and general storage. So did
you say there would be a display in there as
well as the car or the truck?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
72
MR. STUDENROTH: Yes, the building is
larger than it needs to be to house a single
truck. It's a two-bay wide building. We
actually have a wonderful carriage that's now
stored up in our other barn and we're thinking
we might want to bring that down and sort of
visually represent the evolution of
transportation and it'll make the link that
way, so it's bigger than it needs to be for a
single truck. Also, to give us additional
space to create this exhibit so that you'll be
able to walk in the building and walk around
the truck and we'll use the surrounding walls
for exhibit panels.
It's a story and a half and the storage
aspect of this, which we never have enough of,
is that within the rafters within the
structure itself we may be able to find some
area to store some things, but there's no
staircase, there's no floored loft.
MR. MALKUSH: We've also had people
already commit that they're going to donate
like an antique bicycle. There's a lot of
enthusiasm about the structure in the
community and different people have different
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
things in their barns and their garages and
basements and it's up to us to really display
it, but we really visualize it as a 1930s,
1940s old-fashioned garage cause we'll have
the car there and with the display as such an
important part of the local history and it
really has attracted enthusiasm into the
Historical Council from some of the people
that have heard what we're doing and telling
us about like a bicycle or there's an old
wagon that somebody else has that they were
showing Zac and I.
So we have all these things on the back
burner (inaudible) for the structure and I
think we're really going to be able to
contribute to the community with it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, are you
proposing to finish the interior in any way,
sheetrock or anything like that?
MR. STUDENROTH: No, it's a timber-frame
building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you're just
(inaudible).
MR. STUDENROTH: So
building are of interest and we'll leave
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that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
It will need minimal
public.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Definitely.
I think it's a far
enough distance from the edge of pavement to
have a buffer there.
MEMBER HORNING: Leslie, just to review
the Notice of Disapproval, the first half of
it is irrelevant now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is irrelevant
now made so by virtue of getting the comments
that we requested from Landmarks Preservation.
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No water whatsoever.
electrical for alarm and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Electric, sure.
MR. STUDENROTH: -- lighting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No heat or
anything.
MR. STUDENROTH: No heat. Well, first of
all none of our buildings have heat. Luckily
we have the library that takes us in in the
winter (inaudible) do our lectures over there
and so (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sounds like it's
going to be a great contribution and addition
to the -- what the Society has to offer to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: And the Special
Exception is still --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Special
Exception is a permitted use and we -- this
garage is a permitted use by Special
Exception. So that is what we are essentially
granting.
Any other questions from the Board?
Anyone in the audience would like to
speak to this application?
MR. STUDENROTH: Well, they're excited to
(inaudible) the Board members.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, hearing no
further comments, I'll make a motion to close
the hearing, reserve decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6409 - Dahna M. Basilice
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~'Request for Variance from Code Sections
280-15, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's May 4,
2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed
construction of accessory garage, at 1) less
than the code required side yard setback of 20
feet, 2) less than the code required front
yard setback of 35 feet, 3) more than the code
required maximum lot coverage of 20%; at:
3255 Bayshore Rd., (adj. to Peconic Bay)
Greenport, NY. SCTM#1000-53-6-8."
MS. WICKHAM: Gail Wickham for the
applicant who, unfortunately was detained and
cannot be here, but hopefully we can address
this without them.
First of all, I just want to address the
benefit of the applicant to this proposal
versus the detriment. Obviously, the
application for a two-car garage will enable
them to put two vehicles inside without the
garage being in the middle of their front yard
by reducing the setback from the side and the
front. That's a benefit to the neighborhood
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
in that there will be less noise from motors
starting, bells dinging, people coming in and
out, and it will be quieter, doors slamming
and the other benefit is that it won't be
visible to the street. It fits right in the
middle of the front yard where the opening to
the driveway from that big hedgerow is. Right
now cars are parked in the driveway because
they don't have a garage and that will be
eliminated.
Because the house does not have a
basement, the garage will also provide storage
for them for their lawnmower and some other
items and I suppose correspondingly there will
be less lawn to mow. It will also be a
benefit because they will move the existing
shed -- remove it. It is now 3-1/2 feet from
the line. I'd like to correct the application
in that I said it was the same distance, 5
feet, it's 3-1/2 from the line. So this would
be an increase in the insufficient setback --
or a decrease in the insufficient setback by
1-1/2 feet.
Balancing against that, I realize the
detriment to the neighborhood I guess is that
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
theoretically there will be less open space in
the neighborhood. Less air and light, but
this is an area of small lots with high lot
coverage. So it really won't be any different
than the way the neighborhood has developed
over the years.
Another possible detriment would be the
shading or potential shading of the natural
hedge on the north side although because of
the separation the hedge will get light part
of the day. That hedge is the neighbor's
hedge on the neighbor's side so if it does
thin out the countervailing factor is that the
back of the garage will not have windows or
lights so it's not like they would be looking
at light or anything that they would otherwise
not want to see and I can also ask the owners
to keep the hedge trimmed back there so there
will be a separation between the back of the
garage and the hedge to allow light in and
that will probably help them preserve the back
of the garage anyway so there's less moisture.
We really don't have another method of
addressing this problem because of the
location of the water supply and the cesspool.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
They're close to the house so we can't attach
it to the house and if we made it smaller,
that would leave half a garage, which would
leave one car out, it's only half a solution.
I'd like you to consider hat the relief
requested is not substantial in light of the
other lot coverage, front, and side yard
setbacks in the neighborhood. Many have
extremely high lot coverage and this is
minimal as we're only 6 feet over the limit.
So the magnitude of this change in the context
of the neighborhood is small. The other very
important mitigating factor is that the side
and front yard setback reduction are
completely masked by this incredibly beautiful
arborvitae hedge that they have across the
front and the privet hedge, I believe it's
privet hedge, on the side line. Given the
height of those hedges and the densities I
don't think the people in the neighborhood
will even know it's there.
None of the other garages in the
neighborhood are blocked in that fashion from
the road. They're all right on the road and
cars have to back in and out of them into the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
roadway to be used and this does not have
that. They will be able to maneuver within
their yard area.
We don't have an issue with wetlands.
We're quite a ways from that and another
reason for the location is that that allows
enough distance between the house and the
proposed garage so that you have a way to get
through between the two structures and down
along side of the house to the water should
you have a need for emergency access.
The difficulty is not self-created
because the lot configuration demands this
type of location and, again, it is the minimum
variance because a one-car garage would only
be half a solution and you would have problems
with your water and sanitary system.
Now, I did a chart that I wanted to give
you today and I will give you today that shows
the other properties in the neighborhood that
have similar garages. It is tied to the
photographs that I put in the application.
Unfortunately, I made a mistake in it, so if
you could just give me a few minutes after the
hearing I would like to correct those numbers.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
To just give you a couple of examples,
there are three other two-car garages already
built in the neighborhood. One is on tax lot
3, one is on tax lot -- oh, four - one is on
tax lot 9 and one is one tax lot 18 and those
all have significantly reduced front and side
yard setbacks with one exception. The
neighbor immediately to our south has a garage
that is setback about 34 feet, but it's a
double-car garage with the little turrets on
the side. That one is 0.06 feet from the line
with respect to the curb and about 2 feet from
the line with respect to the rest of the
garage.
Tax lot 3 has a setback of 25 -- I'm
sorry, lot coverage of 25.2 percent and you
granted a variance to tax lot 4, (Inaudible),
of -- my notes here say 28.7 percent, that's
what I computed, but I just looked at your
decision I think it's 27.8 percent so that's
one correction I have to make, but in any
event it's well over what we are asking for
here and given the layout of our lot there's a
lot more open space (inaudible) than that lot.
So I'm sure you have questions for, I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
done talking for now,
any you might have.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
but I'm happy to answer
As you're aware this
particular piece of property has had two
variances granted already.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: One was
coverage.
MS. WICKHAM:
as I understand it,
for lot
Yes. One of the variances,
the first variance they
did not build the structure. According to the
building permit the only variance that they've
built on was the second one. I think it's
#4687 and that was for slightly less lot
coverage encroachment
MEMBER DINIZIO:
still part of -- what
than we have now.
No. (Inaudible) it's
we granted them, cause I
was on the Board, was a raised patio.
MS. WICKHAM: Which was?
MEMBER DINIZIO: A raised patio.
MS. WICKFL~M: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That was already built,
it was already constructed and we granted it.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. #4687, yes, they did
build that. The other variance was for a --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 49-foot setback
from the bulkhead.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, that was for an
addition, which I don't believe they did
build. #4409 I have a note on that, not
built, and that seems to comport with the
Building Department files. I am aware of
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean so they could
still rightfully build that addition if they
chose to, I suppose, they have a variance for
it.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, at this point though,
that variance, building pursuant to that
variance would result in yet additional lot
coverage I believe so they would have to come
back in anyway. I don't think they can build
it without permission.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay,
- and the simplicity of the
surprised me.
MS. WICKHAM: It was 1999,
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right,
what I was thinking of doing was I don't know
null and void that variance so no other
well that was my -
first variance
life was good.
so I guess
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
variances may be grated on this piece of
property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You can't say no
other.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think we
can do that legally.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We can say that we're
not so inclined to grant --
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) variances
they have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: There are no time
limits.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. WICKHAM: Certainly if they came in
in the future, they being whoever the owner of
the lot is at that time, with another
variance, you have every right to say, listen,
we've had a lot of variances already and I
don't think that
MEMBER DINIZIO: We shouldn't say that
this time, I know that.
MS. WICKHAM: I don't think you can say
you can't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can't preclude
anybody coming to us --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: I guess what I'm saying
is you know you're going out the 26 percent,
which is pretty large, and I understand the
lots are small down there and I know there's
garages all along the road there. I used to
hang out there. A lot of those garages were
there long before we had this law.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, the one with the
turrets on it I believe there was a garage
there before there were turrets. Okay, I
think there was a setback there, established
setback there when they built those things.
It just seems to me like I can remember that
being a garage.
MS. WICKHAM:
structure.
It looks like an older
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, well, you know, in
any case I guess what I'm getting at is since
the time that those garages were placed in the
locations that they were placed, our laws
changed and I know this 20-foot, you know,
according to the lot sizes and all of that has
to have some meaning, at least to me anyway.
I think that we can't just keep creating laws
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
and granting variances and I know that sounds
unusual from me, although I think lately it
has not. I think you have to think about that
setback and maybe move it off that property
line more than the five feet.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, two things I'd like
to mention. Number one, it is a building
which is not a habitable building, it's not
part of a living space.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean the law that
we're quoting here is the law concerning
accessory structures.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And the size of
accessory structures and their proportion to
the side lines.
MS. WICKHAM: But I'm talking about lot
coverage in terms of the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm talking about the
setback right now.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 5 feet from 20 feet, 75
percent.
MS. WICKHAM: The other thing that I want
to mention is that many of the homes on these
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
lots are right up against the property line.
This home, while it was close to the property
line, is much further away on both sides than
many of those homes which are right up against
it. So I'm just trying to balance and the
lack of ability to see this structure at all
because of the beautiful screening they have
done. I'm jut asking you to balance that
against the increased lot coverage request and
certainly you could condition it on
maintenance of the hedge in the sun.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not
much about seeing it, I'm not
much about lot coverage cause
concerned too
concerned so
I realize it's a
small lot and it's on the water. You have
some restrictions there and certainly you
could have it in the front. I'm not even so
concerned about the front yard setback, but
the side yard like I said the Town Board went
and did a pretty good meetings and tousled
over just how they were going to address these
problems of these larger structures being
closer to -- accessory structures being closer
to the property line and they came up with a
law that I think we ought to try to abide by.
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Certainly the standards of that law are, for
this size lot, that particular size building,
you need to be 20 feet away.
MS. WICKHAM: Do you have a suggestion?
The shed was 3-1/2 feet away this is 5.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but the shed
existed prior to -- the shed was probably
given a building permit because at the time it
was okay to do that. Now it is not.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, these are new
laws that they're coming up with.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.'
MEMBER DINIZIO: They affect people.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, can you move
it over at least 6 or 7 feet? I mean that's
not a hardship by any means and it's at least
enough to get lawnmower there and maintain the
hedge.
MS. WICKHAM: Do you mean a total of 6 or
7 feet?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I don't mean 6
or 7 feet more, you're proposing it at 5, can
you increase it to a 7-foot side yard? I
agree with Jim, I don't think that the side
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
yard setback --
MS. WICKI~AM: I don't have -- I don't
think they would object to that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I mean it's
giving you everything --
MS. WICKHAM: Until,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
general quick questions.
this structure, I take it?
MS. WICK}OkM: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: And no heat,
correct?
MS. WICKHAM: No heat.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And unfinished, no
sheetrock or you don't know?
MS. WICKHAM: That I don't know. They
may want to make the inside of the garage so
they can hang things on it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and electric,
of course, you'll have in the --
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, there'll be an
overhead door and lights.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and so you
don't have a problem with some alternative
relief on the side yard increasing it to meet
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well, let me --
Let me ask you some
No water proposed in
No water?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
7 feet?
MS. WICKHAM: I will
agree to that, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
approximation.
suggest that they
That's an
Jim's writing the decision and
we will have to discuss
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it, but --
I'm okay with 7
I'm not okay with --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah,
say we have to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah,
that's why I
compromise.
that's why
I'm throwing out a number and we'll have to
work it out, but certainly I don't have a
problem with the front yard setback and, yes,
we can continue to request that the screening
be continuously maintained and so on, but
bringing it over some more by a couple of feet
more at the minimum is still going to give you
exactly what you've described. It won't be in
the middle of your lot and it won't be visible
from the driveway and so on and so forth, but
MEMBER DINIZIO: Where is the water line
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
anyway?
MS.
Can you -- do you have that on your -
WICK/qAM: I don't seem to have that
information, but my understanding was that it
did -- that's the only question. I think
there's a -- he told me they had a well right
at the -- it would be the southeast corner of
the proposed garage, but I don't think it goes
underneath there.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER HORNING:
an amended site plan,
Southeast corner.
Rather than asking for
we would just --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll just do
alternative relief.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They'd have to give us
the plan before we give them --
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, after we --
the way we're organizing it now in our office
is if we grant alternative relief, the
building permit is subject to receipt of the
plans as we've granted them signed off by us
in our office and we then send them over to
Building Department with an approval and then
we can file it on (inaudible).
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Yes, we will see the plans, it is not
necessary to submit them. We don't know what
the alternative relief is going to be yet. So
MEMBER HORNING: No, but she could amend
the plan and we could provide alternate relief
off of an amended plan.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But we don't know
what the figure is though.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: She could do that,
but it's more complicated.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We could grant a
setback, then before she gets our paper, she
gives us her paper and it has to meet that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: With our conditions.
MEMBER HORNING: I mean these other
applicants this morning we were asking them
for amended plans.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're coming back
before us.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, they're going to
have another hearing and the whole 9 yards.
MEMBER HORNING: We're going to close
this one?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to
close this, there's no reason to have another
hearing on a shed for crying out loud.
MS. WICKlqAM: Can you leave it --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You brought up a good
point about the water main.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
find the water.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MS. WICKHAM: I'll
I think we just need to
Right.
confirm -- if we can
just leave the hearing open for the purpose of
me submitting to you the chart that I would
like to give you with the neighboring setbacks
and --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MS. WICKHAM: --
Sure.
lot coverage and the
location of the water line.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to
leave it open or can't we just close it
subject to --
MS. WICKHAM: No, close it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- receipt
MS. WICK_HAM:
I'm sorry.
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-- subject to my -- yes,
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MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, close it subject to
my being able to meet that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, the clock
will start on our 62 days as soon as we
receive your submissions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
that on the survey?
MS. WICKHAM: I
survey, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
on that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
cesspool?
MS. WICKHAM: No, I
it's a water line.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
where it is (inaudible).
from the Board on this?
Ail right, can you put
The water?
think it can be on a
We'll base our decision
It's not like a
don't think it's --
I'll
to
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: NO.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone in the
audience that would like to address this
application?
Okay. Hearing no further comments,
make a motion to close the hearing subject
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But we'll find out
Any other questions
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
receipt from the applicant's agent, the
attorney, an indication on the survey as to
where the location of a water line is and a
list of -- chart of neighborhood setbacks.
MS. WICKHAM: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6404 - Roy Ward
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for Variance from Code Sections
280-124 and 280-116, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's March 8, 2010, amended June 3,
2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning
additions and alterations to an existing
dwelling, at 1) less than the code required
side yard setback of 15 feet, 2) less than the
code required combined side yard setback of 35
feet, 3) less than the code required setback
to a bulkhead of 75 feet; at; 4075 Stillwater
Ave., (East Creek (Eugene's Creek) Cutchogue,
NY.
SCTM#1000-137-1-8.1."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. THOMAS: My name
Good morning.
is Chuck Thomas.
I'm the architect for the clients, Dr. and
Mrs. Ward.
This project started with the Wards
looking to basically connect their guest
cottage to the main house. They're not
looking to maintain the guest cottage, they
want their guests to be part of their main
house. Upon looking at the property and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
existing house I thought it was too far. The
guest house is quite far from the house. It's
-- the existing setback to that cottage right
now off the side yard property line is 2.8
feet. That cottage right now has two full
bedrooms, bathroom, living and dining, and a
kitchen. Fully functioning kitchen, it is
compliant, it is CO'd.
What we're proposing to do is to remove
that cottage entirely and to do a two-story
addition off the front of the house. Due to
the positioning of the house, it's cocked on
the site, so -- and the existing north
property line setback is nonconforming as it
is. So as soon as we touch the house we're
before you. The existing corner setback is
11.1 feet so at any point, in time going
forward we're noncompliant.
What we're proposing to do is come out
approximately 45 feet from the front of the
house. We're looking to add three bedrooms, a
home office, and a play area for the children.
They have a growing family there are two small
children there now. They were looking to
build that 5.7 feet off of the north property
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
line. That's a worse case scenario.
Like I said the house is cocked on the
site so the further it goes out the further it
gets to the line. We hope that moving from
2.8 feet to the 5.7 feet and removing a
nonconforming use, which basically another
residence on the property, you know, we were
hoping that this would be acceptable.
Also part of this application, we're
looking to do a wraparound porch on the house
and when we wrap it through the southeast
side, although it's not the closest point to
the bulkhead, it becomes 43 feet from the foot
of the bulkhead.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't have a problem
with the porch you have there on the -- which
side is that south side?
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Southeast side,
however, I do have a problem with the proposed
two-story addition. I think you can bring
that into more conformance, if not total
conformance with side yard.
MR. THOMAS: Conformance to side yard
would be 15 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
MR. THOMAS: Based on -- I brought a
picture of the front of the house. We're
trying to maintain the front entry of the
house. We have the front door, we have the
interior staircase, this is really the only
place where we could add onto the house and
have the bedrooms connect to the bedrooms on
the second floor. If we slide it over then we
lose our front door. I have a picture that
shows that fairly clearly also, if you'd like
to see that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, at the moment
you've maxed out a corner in what is
essentially a master bedroom walk-in closet in
order to get 5.7 feet.
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I tend to agree
that you could increase the -- you have a one-
story cottage there now. To create that much
mass and bulk, two story, that close to the
property line is a significant impact. If you
were able to increase that to 10-foot, the
code requires 15, you would thereby not only
improve that nonconformity, but you would also
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
eliminate the need for variance for total side
yard.
MR. THOMAS: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So those are fairly
well proportioned rooms that you're proposing,
perhaps there is a way without compromising
the -- I certainly understand your need to
want to preserve the front door and so on, but
tweaking that volume, the dimension of that
volume, to bring that up to 10 feet, 9 or 10
feet anyway, would certainly help the proposal
for the kind of nonconformity that you're
requesting from us. That's my comment.
It's LWRP consistent.
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And again I don't
(inaudible). I agree with Ken, I don't have a
problem with the proposed wraparound porch or
the bulkhead setback. I think it's primarily
that side yard, which is just
for such a large volume.
MEMBER HORNING: Could I
really too close
ask also in
these renovations or additions here, how do
you go about doing this then? You're
proposing to tear down a one-story frame
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building to start with, correct?
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Then that must mean that
you're putting in all new foundation; is that
correct?
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Since you're doing that
then you should consider better setbacks.
MR. THOMAS: Well, I have the floor plans
with me and I can certainly go over with you
the consequence of sliding this over. At the
-- where the addition meets the house it's
only 15 feet as it is and that is because the
existing stairs in the main part of the house
and the existing front door we would like to
maintain. It's -- 15 feet is -- that's 11
feet off the property line, existing, and like
I said as soon as we extend out we increase
our nonconformity.
MEMBER HORNING:
nonconformity --
MR. THOMAS: Yes,
MEMBER HORNING:
This is increasing the
it is.
-- tremendously.
MR. THOMAS: Well, we're also looking at
bringing the property into conformity with
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
removing a nonconforming use, which is the
second residence on the property. This is a
second residence on the property that we are
removing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
commendable.
MR. THOMAS:
it is being used.
family comes out
I think that's
It has a kitchen. You know,
During the summer his
and does stay in it. We're
looking to remove that.
remove that. We're not
families. He wants his
We're not looking to.
looking to do two
family in the house
with him and this is an alternative that they
certainly could live with.
I'm certainly listening to the comments
about increasing the setback. Going to 10
feet would significantly impact anything that
we would like to do. Perhaps the 8 or 9 we
could redesign to work around.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll make a comment,
sir. You're tearing down an existing building
which you're saying is commendable. We might
agree. You're building an entire new
foundation and a two-story structure. The
cost of relocating a front door or something
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
is negligible in comparison to the overall
cost of this project.
MR. THOMAS: We have to redo the whole
house though, the whole existing. The way
this addition is designed is based on remove a
window and that window becomes the walkway to
the new addition (inaudible) on the first
floor. The first and second floor everything
kind of worked out very well. If we move the
front door, we'll need to remove a bathroom on
the inside of the house. We move the stairs,
that's a total redesign of the whole existing
interior of the second floor of the house.
So at that point -- we redid this house
eight years ago as far as (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, I think my
colleagues are trying to encourage you to come
up with a more reasonable plan, let's call it,
that does not have such an extreme variance
required for brand new construction.
MR. THOMAS: It is brand new
construction, but we're attaching to an
existing house.
MEMBER HORNING: Correct, but you're
increasing side yard nonconformity. You're
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
increasing it rather dramatically.
MR. THOMAS: I understand that, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: That's the issue really
from what I --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's mass. It's
mass.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's footage and mass
is what it is. We're looking at it right now
to see if we can give you something else.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What about putting it on
the other side of the house, (inaudible)? We
just want to discuss it so we have --
MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. If we look at
the inside of the house, the existing layout
of the house, it doesn't work. I mean that
was one of the things that we initially looked
at. We'll rip out the kitchen, we'll rip out
the existing bathroom on the second floor. We
just did -- I did this house for Dr. Ward
before he was married and he did it for
himself and he did a beautiful job and we had
a lot of fun, it looked great.
He gets married, he now has two small
children and now we're trying to not redo
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
everything we just did 7 years ago. This was
not part of the grand plan (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO:
and --
MR. THOMAS: Yes,
It's moving the kitchen
it is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's a lot more
involved than just taking out a couple of
windows.
MR. THOMAS:
would have gone
before you.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
front of the house,
Yes. It would -- I think I
the easier route and not come
Now,
again,
attaching it to the
it's the same
thing, you have a foyer area existing and you
have to remove all of that, a stairway maybe;
is that what we're talking about?
MR. THOMAS: Under this proposal I'm not
moving the stairway or the front door and
we're trying to maintain the look of the
house. It's a fairly attractive looking
house. (Inaudible) roof and it's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a very nice
house.
MR. THOMAS: You know, we've spent a lot
of time on that and we're trying to
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incorporate this addition in keeping the
elements of that existing house. Keeping the
signature of the front door, the (inaudible).
If I move the front door over it's not
centered in the (inaudible), you know, we can
make it look like an addition and maybe force
some of this stuff in, but
what they're looking to do.
are very important to them,
that's not really
The aesthetics
thankfully, it
makes my job look better, but I know it's not
all about aesthetics and I understand the mass
and the (inaudible) roof would certainly
increase the visual of the two-story. We do
have a (inaudible) dormer on the one side, but
we do have a (inaudible) roof on the
(inaudible) side, it's not just a two-story
box.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, look,
architecturally speaking, which I am qualified
to talk about cause that's my field, I
certainly understand the logic of the flow and
the layout as well as the massing on the
elevation. Nevertheless, there may be a way
from the, you know, that's their master
bedroom area with bath?
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MR. THOMAS: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's hard to fit a
stair in, but, you know, that whole section
perhaps can be canted over slightly without
creating literally a courtyard in front of the
front yard. The Board should not be sitting
here really designing for an architect, you
know, nevertheless, I think you're hearing
fairly strong consensus that 5.7 feet for a
side yard is just really too close for
something that's two-stories tall.
MR. THOMAS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Certainly we
commend the elimination of the nonconforming
second dwelling, but again it
it's really small. You know,
little impact on the neighbor.
is very low key,
there's very
There is
hedgerow along there that's going to go caput
as soon as you put two stories up. You know
what I'm saying?
So it's going to be a fairly substantial
shear wall at that corner and if there's a way
that you can talk to your clients and simply
inform them that the Board is concerned about
that and would like, if at all possible, to
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eliminate the combined side yard variance by
increasing that one side yard, but even if you
can't quite make that, that would be what
conforming total side yard -- I don't think
you're going to necessarily make it. You need
35 feet for combined side yard. You have a
lot on the other side, you know, there's quite
a bit. It's 32 proposed, from the porch roof
is 25. So if you had 10 you could eliminate
it. I don't know if you can make 10, you
know, and still provide the kind of proportion
that you want here. There's a study upstairs,
the house has been expanded considerably.
MR. THOMAS: What if I eliminate the
porch on the south side?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's possible that
you can --
MR. THOMAS: Does that do anything for
the total combined side yard that you're
looking for? I mean that doesn't decrease the
massing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I understand
what you're saying, that'll help with that
variance, but I still think we're going to
have to do a little bit better on that side
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
yard. It sounds
MR. THOMAS:
than --
to me, you know.
Do I have a number other
MEMBER DINIZIO: It looks to me like you
could gain 5.6 feet if you didn't have the
wrap around porch on the front of the new
addition.
MR. THOMAS: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If you just took it and
pushed that whole addition in, I don't know
what that does entering -- in other words you
get 5.6 feet if you just pushed the whole
addition into that notch. You might lose a
little bit where it meets up with the house,
but you'd have -- you'd have to put the
hallway on the other side.
MR. THOMAS: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It gets
complicated. When you change one thing it's
like dominoes.
MR. THOMAS: Yeah. (Inaudible) the
window, the stairwell, you know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I bet you can sit
down and figure it out.
MR. THOMAS: Yeah, we can.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: We have a 50-foot run
of proposed two-story addition starting with a
setback of 11.1 feet and ending at a setback,
proposed setback of 5.7. So that's a 50-foot
run. I think that you can step it back, I'd
like to see you step it back. There's no -- I
have to write this up and I'll tell you right
now I cannot write it up for a 5.7-foot side
yard setback on this
addition.
MEMBER HORNING:
two-story proposed
It's 40-foot, 40.8.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, plus the 9.3.
I see you made an attempt to step it back
a little bit more in that 9.3 for the proposed
extension. I want to address the Board, we
would look at maybe a 9-foot side yard?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's all right with
me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that as a -- however, the
I'd be alright with
question is do we
want to ask Mr. Thomas to come back before us
with amended survey and plans or do we want to
grant alternative relief and then let you deal
with it after the fact and then present those
drawings to us in order to stamp them and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
approve them and send them over to Building?
I mean I can go either way, whatever the Board
wants to do.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean if we
want to go with 9 or 9-1/2 feet it's going to
be a minimal combined side yard variance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's going to be a
large side yard variance --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMkN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- considering the
two-story addition.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A lot better than
what it is though.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: A lot better than what
it is and he can --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, well we'll
still be granting a good deal of benefit to
the applicant. I mean they're going to get a
really nice very enlarged house as a result of
the relief should that get granted.
Do you have any feelings about this?
MR. THOMAS: Um --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you want what
you want.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. THOMAS: I have a lot of feelings.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, the ball is in
your court now.
MR. THOMAS: Yes. I respect your
opinions and I certainly understand them and
sometimes you hear comments back and you don't
know quite where they're coming from.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. THOMAS: And these are legitimate and
I totally understand them. If we could do 8-
1/2 or the 9 I'm sure I can rework this out
and get the Wards happy with their addition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then why don't we
do this, why don't we consider acknowledging
in the record that the architect for the
applicant has recognized alternative relief is
viable and, therefore, we will not need to
rehear this. I would like to consider closing
this hearing --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Subject to receipt --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- subject to --
no. No. Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand you don't
want to close anything, but this gentlemen
does have to go back to his clients, they may
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
very well say no. I mean they will. You
know, I don't know if you want to close it
then all of a sudden if he wants to maybe have
the same thing and then (inaudible). Maybe it
was Wren, I forget who exactly it was.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, Wren was never
closed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, no, but again they
didn't like, the applicant, didn't like what
we were proposing and we had to reopen the
hearing or whatever, that's all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm just trying to
save the applicant and us time on the whole
process, if it isn't necessary. If the Board
feels they want to see alternative plans and
you want to confer with your clients and work
it all out beforehand, we can do that. I
think we're getting very clogged up for next
month. We'd have to probably revisit this in
November.
BOARD ASSISTANT: December.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, we don't have a
November, December 2.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do you want to talk
to your client?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
as?
MR. THOMAS: What number are we talking
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 9.
MR. THOMAS: 9. So we're looking at
difference from 5.7 to 9.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the
Right.
It's not a tragedy.
You can crank that volume at an angle.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean as an
architect coming before the Board you must
realize that something like this you might not
get it first shot out of the gate. So you
must have a plan B, I think, and if you don't
then you're kidding yourself.
MR. THOMAS: No comment.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No comment.
want
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to do?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I
What's the Board
think we should
just leave it open so that we can see it after
he does it and then we can close it. Okay, so
in other words we're leaving it open to no
more verbal testimony, okay, we have the plan
in front of us after he submits it. We close
the hearing and then we make the decision.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, why can't we make
the decision and he has to live with the 9
feet?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we can do
that, too.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We can do that too,
sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Look the architect
has testified that he is confident that he can
rework these plans with a 9-foot side yard
setback. If that is the case, then I think we
should leave it up to him and his clients to
do that. If they don't like the variance,
they don't have to build it. I mean we can go
back and forth forever on these. I'd like to
see us moving --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So make the motion.
MEMBER HORNING: Does he want the hearing
closed?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you satisfied
with closing the hearing?
MR. THOMAS: I'm satisfied with the 9
feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right because
what we can then do is write this as
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
alternative relief for 9-foot side yard and
then it will change the combined side yard and
so on and then you will have to submit, before
you will be able to get a building permit, the
final drawings to us.
MR. THOMAS: Oh, they don't go to the
Building Department and then to you?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They will come to
us now because it is alternative relief.
MR. THOMAS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have to see that
in fact, we need two sets of drawings from you
BOARD ASSISTANT: And survey.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and a survey
showing the alternative relief that was
granted. All right, that's going to change
the combined side yards, it's going to change
the westerly side yard and then we will make
sure that those drawings reflect the decision
that we wrote. We will stamp them and send
them over to the Building Department that they
may issue you your building permit. That's
the way the procedure works now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just to let you know
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the other side yard, the 25.5 proposed for the
extended porch, proposed porch is fine.
MR. THOMAS: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So it's fine with me,
so I'm just speaking for myself.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, is there
anyone else in the audience that would like to
address this application?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I'll
make a motion to close this hearing, reserve
decision for a later date.
MEMBER HOR/qING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING ~6418 Douglas Slama
and Nancy Schrank
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~This is a request for a Waiver under
Code Article II, Section 280-10A, to unmerge
land identified as SCTM#1000-98-5-9, based on
the Building Inspector's July 14, 2010 Notice
of Disapproval citing Zoning Code Section 280-
10A, which states that the nonconforming lots
merged until a total lot size conforms to the
current bulk schedule (minimum 40,000 square
feet in this R-40 Residential Zone District)
this lot is merged with lot 10 to the south,
at: 355 and 405 Robinson La., Peconic, NY.
SCTM#1000-98-5-9 and 10."
MS. DOTY: Good day. I'm Deborah Dory.
I represent Douglas Slama and Nancy Schrank
who are the children of Stanley and Bertha
Slama, both of whom are now deceased. Douglas
and Nancy are also the executors of Bertha's
will.
I have here the affidavit of posting to
pass up to the Board. With regard to
mailings, there is one individual who did not
return a green card. I checked online and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
also had the Post Office check. The letter
was accepted at the Cutchogue Post Office and
beyond that there is nothing. According to
the Postmaster yesterday in Cutchogue, and I
quote, ~Somebody missed a scan." So the
neighbor in the back with the very long piece
of property, her name is Faper (sic) did not
receive a notice as far as we can tell. Her
house is all the way dow~ by the water and the
only thing adjacent to the vacant land and the
improved property is her driveway.
I also have here a copy of the filed
subdivision map. For some reason this is not
actually included in the package and there are
7 copies for the Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
MS. DOTY: We're requesting that the
Board waive the merger of two parcels, one of
which is vacant. It's lot number 9, it's 0.47
of an acre and it adjoins lot number 10, which
is 0.508 of an acre and those are based on the
information in the Assessor's office. The two
lots were created in the 1961 subdivision map
of which you have a copy. Family and Bertha,
that's what I will call them for clarity's
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
sake, purchased lot 10 in 1964 and then lot 9
in 1965. They've always received separate tax
bills. They both own lot 10 and completely
cleared that lot as you can see when you go to
the property.
Lot 9, however, is totally overgrown.
According to Doug Slama it has never been
cleared. It's remained fallow for 45 years or
probably longer. They, according to Doug, the
family and Bertha thought of lot 9 as their
mad money, their retirement fund, their nest
egg. If they had wanted additional monies and
a larger lot in 1964 or 5, rather, they could
have done what Stanley's brother, Uncle
Charlie, down street, did when he purchased
property in the 60s after the subdivision was
created.
He bought lot 29, what is now 29 and
subdivided out 25 feet on either side to
adjoining parcels. I have here the property
card for that lot just for information. It
shows on the tax map as well, but they didn't
do that because they were preserving this
separate lot so they could sell it.
Now, given that both Stanley and Bertha
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MS. DOTY:
after what is
purchased.
are now deceased Doug promises that what they
intend to do as executors is he intends to
purchase the improved parcel from the estate,
basically, and reimburse -- and his sister
would get the vacant land and there would be
some money exchanged so it would equal out,
but he wants to keep the house. He said he
intends to move here. His sister, Nancy, is
on the west coast, I believe.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's his name,
Douglas?
MS. DOTY: Douglas.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The applicant.
Deborah, could I just have this again? Lot
number 9 is the improved parcel?
MS. DOTY: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is the vacant parcel.
MS. DOTY: Yes, it's confusing because
the street numbers are --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that was
purchased when?
That was purchased in 1965
now the improved parcel was
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Lot number 10
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
was purchased in when?
MS. DOTY: '64.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
purchased first?
MS. DOTY: No, it's
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
correct.
MS. DOTY: I --
So the vacant lot was
the other way.
I apologize. You're
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have this all done,
I reviewed it, but I may have misconstrued
that one thing and that's why I'm asking you
again.
MS. DOTY: Well, I will opine here, I
think they decided they wanted to build on the
larger of the two parcels.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MS. DOTY: Which happens to be the first
on the road, but the number happens to be the
higher number.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, which is 16.
MS. DOTY: Yes. They built, they got a
building permit in 1966 to build on lot 10.
At that time, I wasn't here, but it would
appear that they cleared the lot to build the
house and they have used it as a single
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
residential property leaving the other vacant,
overgrown. I wouldn't walk into the other one
at this point.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MS. DOTY: It's comparable in size to the
other lots I gave you. (Inaudible) statistics
in my application, I can go back further, if
you wish. I don't think I need to and it's
always been vacant and it's historically been
treated as a separate lot and given the fact
that there are only four vacant lots on the
street, it will not have an adverse impact on
the neighborhood. Two of the lots that are
nearer the water are smaller than this lot and
if you look at them they actually have been
incorporated into the waterfront lot where the
house is, there is landscaping, there is the
entrance there, etc., but they have been kept
in single and separate ownership, as far as I
can tell. I didn't do a search on them.
So those are two small lots that are
being used as part of a larger lot and then
the only other one is at the entrance of
Robinson Lane, which is overgrown also. I'm
not certain if that's improved.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What's the story with
the lot that says, "land of Polly Water."
MS. DOTY: There's a house on it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that is a
lot that must have been --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, that's the lot,
isn't it?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, it's across the
street.
MS. DOTY: It's across the street.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There must have been
a house there prior to this.
MS. DOTY: I believe, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You are aware of why
these lots are primarily half-acre lots?
MS. DOTY: I'm not totally aware, no.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, the reason
being that although we were at 12,500 square
feet coming out of the box in 1957, the
Suffolk County Health Department said we're
not going to allow that, so therefore you need
to boost these lots up and we will only allow
construction on half-acre lots and that's
probably the reason why Henry Smith had to
make them pretty much half-acre, which was
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
interesting.
MS. DOTY: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does any Board
member have any questions on this application?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone in
the audience would like to address this
application? Please come forward.
MS. SCHULE: Good afternoon. My name is
Deborah Schule, maiden name Cucino. We own
the property adjacent to the vacant lot.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you please
spell your last name for the record?
MS. SCHULE: Yes, it's S-C-H-U-L-E.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. SCHULE: First name Deborah, two
Deborahs here today.
Our family has been on Robinson Lane
since 1966; I grew up on Robinson Lane. I
knew when the Slama house was built, that lot
in between my property, my parents' property
at the time, and the Slama's was a nice
buffer. There have not been very many new
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
houses put up on the Lane in quite a few
years. There's a couple of lots I think that
back in the early 70s, but there are few
remaining as you've already seen wooded lots
and that's kind of what keeps the integrity of
the block to be what it is and make it as nice
as it is to have a little bit of a buffer.
So I know that the Town went to, I don't
know if it's five-acre zoning, the zoning has
all changed over the years and so I would just
respectfully ask that you maintain the
unmerged (sic) status and I say that selfishly
so I can have the wooded area around the house
that we have now that we've enjoyed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I just comment on
what you just said so you're clear what we
heard. You just asked them -- asked us to
unmerge those two pieces of property.
MS. SCHULE: No. I said to keep them --
I'm sorry, you're right. I want to keep them
-- I thought they are -- to keep them merged.
Thank you for correcting the record, I
appreciate that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'll just expand on
that. The Town Board a few years ago has made
the unmerger acts a situation easier for the
applicants to apply for and so the Board still
has the right to look at it, but the unmerger
aspects are easier than they were two years
ago.
MS. SCHULE: Yeah, as I understood it,
it's I guess in cases of hardship. You know,
I own my house, my parent's house, with my
three siblings and my parents have been
deceased now for over, I don't know, 15-20
years. If we needed to settle up we'd have to
sell the parcel of land, so I don't see it as
being any different. I know the Slamas, I
grew up -- they never grew up on Robinson
Lane. They summered there, but you know I
guess they're trying to divide up the
properties so each can get their fair share,
but in that case, in my own family case, if I
had to do that I'd have to divide my property
by four. So, you know,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
be aware of that.
I understand.
I just wanted you to
MS. SCHULE: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Anyone else wishing
to address this application?
Deborah, did you want to say anything?
MS. DOTY: I just want to say that this
is a classic case of something that the Town
did probably inadvertently to some people who
were unaware of it and the Town perpetuated
the fact that there was a vacant lot and an
improved parcel by issuing tax bills. We have
a situation, and I've had many, several of
them before the Board where for estate
purposes and tax planning purposes it's a
matter of being able to divide up two parcels
back to the original and allow the family to
do what their parents wanted.
The other thing I would remind the Board
of is that if, in fact, it were one large
parcel it's possible and perhaps likely that
there would be a McMansion ending up there
because the Slamas would not be able to keep
the parcels. They will not be able to keep
the parcel as a single parcel, it will go on
the market.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I ask a question?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
I thought that the Town codified the lessening
of these (inaudible). It seems to me I
remember the Code saying it, but I see nothing
in your application referencing that, that if
it was owned by the same owners and they were
relatives, it was given to relatives, it would
be okay to unmerge those pieces of property.
Is that not --
MS. DOTY: The current Code now, and I'll
defer to the Town Attorney, I don't have it
right in front of me, but it says that to even
get before the Board essentially there had to
be no transfer to an unrelated party or
entity. Here, we have the children getting
the parcels.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. DOTY: So we're in the door and then
you look at the various --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean it doesn't share
cesspools.
MS. DOTY: No, there is no cesspool on
it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's no --
MS. DOTY: I believe there's water on --
yes, there's public water on the road.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm talking about
those two properties. They share nothing?
They share no shed on the property?
MS. DOTY: I'm sure you went down there,
it's totally overgrown.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The lot lines exist
as they existed in the subdivision?
MS. DOTY: Right, there's been no change.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You won't have any
setback problems with the other house?
MS. DOTY: No. No. It was, it should be
a buildable lot. You're not going to have a
well and cesspool separation issue because you
have public water.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I very rarely ask
this question of an attorney, but I'm going to
ask this question. Is it your opinion that
this is a typical merger by death?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, it was merged
prior to --
MS. DOTY: No, it's not.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. DOTY: It's not a merger by death.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is why we have
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
it before us. If it was a merger by death, it
would be exempt.
MS. DOTY: If it were a merger by death,
I wouldn't be here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's not exempt
based upon what Jimmy is asking you, okay, and
that is the reason why you're before us.
MS. DOTY: Yes. You have a situation
where people bought property in the 60s before
the Code, the merger code even existed, even
the old one, the 80s one that everybody refers
to and the Town just kept it going in terms of
it being two separate lots and it wasn't until
the 90s that there was a (inaudible) merge and
that (inaudible) yet again to make it somewhat
more lenient.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A lot more lenient.
Well, it used to be you almost never could
unmerge because you couldn't prove economic
hardship.
MS. DOTY: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And now if you have
a lot that is on the described subdivision and
it's been held in single and separate and it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
unimproved --
MS. DOTY: (Inaudible) unimproved,
totally.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and it's
characteristic of the lots in the neighborhood
the same sizes and zone, the Town has made it
a much more straightforward unmerger, but --
MS. DOTY: Yeah, they didn't even put a
garden on it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Did they receive
separate tax bills?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, they're in the
file.
MS. DOTY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The fact that
people received separate tax bill is
consistent for everybody,
a part of the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
they did physically merge
so that's really not
it wouldn't be if
those pieces of
property they would receive one tax bill.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- argument.
MS. DOTY: I'm not going to go into my
dispute with the Town.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think the
Town ever did that, that was part of the
problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. They never took
the time to do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But if the people, I'm
looking at their intention, if the applicant's
intention and what they always assumed was,
hey, I'm getting two tax bills I got two
separate lots.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was the case
of everybody because the Assessor's office
never acted, they should have because people
would have known what was going on, but they
didn't --
MS. DOTY: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: And that was part
of the problem. That's where the surprise is
coming from where people assumed they were
going to have a piece of property for
retirement or for the kids or whatever,
discovered that, in fact, they had one piece
of property and not two. So the argument that
you got separate tax bills is really not a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
part of, although it's always made, it's kind
of really not, in my mind, a very strong
argument because that's a given for everybody
across the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it's not Leslie.
We're looking at intent. She's stating that
these people had no intent of merging those
two lots and that's what we're looking at.
That's the gist of your whole argument --
MS. DOTY: And the Town never said, hey,
guys --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. DOTY: This has been merged.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And here's why. I get
the two tax -- so I understand what you're
saying --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, we're not
really arguing, we're just talking about the
fact that what the Town did was very confusing
to a lot of people and frankly it's still
confusing --
MS. DOTY: Still is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- in terms of --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's no excuse for
granting an unmerge, I agree with that --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I agree, that's
what I'm saying. That is not a reason.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But I think Deborah, her
whole casr here is they never had an intention
of not having two lots.
MS. DOTY: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And she just gave one of
those reasons was they just assumed they had.
MS. DOTY: This was their annuity. It
was their mad money.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and the line is
there.
MS. DOTY: It was their nest egg. It was
what they were going to use if they ran out of
money and apparently they never did and it's
my understanding from Douglas that he would
get the house as I said ad Nancy intends to
keep the vacant land. The reason she doesn't
want the house is she doesn't want the
obligation of insurance, etc, etc, whereas
Douglas is talking about moving here. All
right, so Nancy is not, at this point,
intending to put up a house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly you're right
about the McMansion. I mean this would be
quite a big house there with a double lot.
MS. DOTY: Absolutely. Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No one's going to buy
two lots like that and not put something --
MS. DOTY: Yes, exactly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
CFL~IRPERSON WEISM3kN: All right, any more
questions from anyone?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
No questions.
No questions.
Hearing no further
reserve
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
comment, I'll close the hearing,
decision.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(TAPE CHANGE, #2)
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137
ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6417 - Louis and
Elizabeth Mastro
"Request for Variance from Code Sections
280-116(B) and 280-124, based on an
application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's June 14, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed substantial
alterations/additions to dwelling, at; 1) less
than the code required bulkhead setback of 75
feet, 2) less than the code required minimum
side yard setback of 10 feet, 3) less than the
code required total combined side yards of 25
feet, 4) less than the code required rear yard
setback of 35 feet, at: 1595 Ba!zview Ave.,
(adj. to Archamomque Harbor) Southold, N Y.
SCTM#1000-52-5-9."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: -- need to change
what we advertised as substantial alterations
and additions to the dwelling to a demolition
and reconstruction, therefore, it would appear
that we need to readvertise this and receive
more information.
We should also make note, are you here to
represent the Mastros in any way?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that's what
thought. I'm just putting that into the
record.
So there is no one here in the audience
to represent the Mastros and I don't know
whether we want to open and close it --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- or just simply
dismiss it to another date,
November --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
2nd'
adjourn it to
December, December
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- December 2nd
subject to receipt of additional information
from the applicant and renoticing.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, that's what I
want to do.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Notice of
Disapproval doesn't match.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So how are you going to
open up a hearing --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I'm
saying, I don't think we should, but I just
want to double check procedurally what the
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139
ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Board wants to do.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
motion to --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
December 2nd.
You really can't.
Fine.
I'll make the motion.
Jerry's making a
To adjourn to
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- adjourn this
hearing without having opened it to December
2nd at -- 1:307
BOARD ASSISTANT: To 1:00.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 1:00.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 1:00. Okay, this is
predicated on the fact that we have a Notice
of Disapproval that meets the -- a proper
Notice of Disapproval to match application and
new advertising.
MEMBER HORNING: We do have this one,
right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, I'm
seconding it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
140
Disapproval May 25,
MEMBER HORNING:
about.
MR. POLLIO: Yes,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
package.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
2010.
That's what I'm asking
further in the package.
Further in the
Oh I know why,
because he didn't meet the conditions.
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HEARING #6410 - Ronald A. Pollio
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variance from Code Sections
280-15 and relief from prior grant #6205,
based on an application for building permit
and the Building Inspector's May 25, 2010
Notice of Disapproval concerning ~as built"
accessory shower, at 1) location other than
the code required rear yard, 2) relief from
Condition #1 of ZBA Grant #6205; at: 165
Second St., New Suffolk, NY. SCTM#1000-10-
20.5."
(TAPE ISSUE CAUSES THERE TO BE A SPACE
HERE IN THE PROCEEDINGS AND CHANGE TO TAPE #3)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is no Notice
of Disapproval on this.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have a Notice of
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141
ZBA Town of Southold - Septe~Der 23, 2010
Let's have this fellow
the rear of the yard it
don't need any permits.
ago or more (inaudible)
should be fine you
So about a year or so
(TAPE INTERFERENCE) --
as an easement to other neighbors cause the
beach is right there.
So really it would really look very, very
funny if it was in the rear of the yard and
actually there is no front of the yard. So
there's a real question here as to whether --
what's the rear, what's the front, and I put
it in the side of the yard because it's
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MEMBER HORNING:
explain this --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's
open the hearing.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Would you state your
name for the record, please?
MR. POLLIO: Ronald Pollio.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. POLLIO: Good. Good morning. I own
the place at 165 Second Street. Some years
ago I contacted the Building Department by
phone and I wanted to construct an outdoor
shower and I got the following instructions.
If you put it 2 feet from the property line in
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142
ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
absolutely out of the way. It's against the
hedges, it's out of sight, and I thought that
was the least intrusive location on the
property. In fact, I got my neighbors to
agree to that, who I'm all very, very friendly
with and they've also concluded that that is
the proper location for the property and
they've voiced their support for that by
sending in -- if you notice on the original
application they signed off on the bottom.
On the cover page of what you're looking
at they agreed with the granting of this
variance and then in your -- I'm not sure if
you all have in your packages -- I got a
separate letter in addition to that from the
neighbor to the west and that's the Martins.
So on two occasions they signed off on it.
I believe you guys need evidence that
everybody's been properly noticed.
Unfortunately, I left a couple behind in my
attempt to organize my file, but I had them
all faxed over so I don't
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
bring your originals in.
MR. POLLIO: No problem.
know (inaudible).
You'll have to
I did not get
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Robin (inaudible) a close friend and I saw
her. They were all given notices of this
letter in addition to receiving it by hand, so
she signed off on her receipt this morning
dating back that she had received it several
weeks ago.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. POLLIO: So I posted appropriately,
I'm not sure what else I can say.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just bring in the
original green cards or mail them.
MR. POLLIO: Okay.
So based upon the fact that this property
is a little bit different than other
properties in that back is really front, if I
were to put it in the back it would look
horrible. It would really be in the way. I
don't know if you know where this property is,
but the original property belonged to --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: O'Leary, Leary.
MR. POLLIO: Well, my property was Leafy,
but the whole property itself was Pugsley and
the Martin and it was subdivided and really
the front of the property looked towards the
Martins' house and the rear of the property to
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the street and it's really kind of one big
compound and everybody walks in front to go to
the beach. So with those considerations, I'd
like the Board to approve my application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I'll say this
much, we were, Jerry and I and Jim were on the
Board when this decision was made about your
deck, which was granted on October 30tn of 2008
and the reason the condition as I recall was
set forth of moving the shower to a more
conforming location was to make sure that the
side yard, once you put the deck on the side
yard, had somewhat of a less obstructed
access.
Now, in revisiting it, we've all been out
to the site. We've all inspected it.
MR. POLLIO: Oh okay.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: We do that with all
the --
MR. POLLIO: After the construction of
the deck?
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. We've seen
the deck in place. Quite frankly because the
slope is so dramatic, the only way you could
from the road access your property is on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
other side anyway and even then you'd have to
traverse some big stone steps and stuff.
Moving the shower would not necessarily
accomplish an unobstructed side yard. As I
look at the shower in place relative to the
deck, I'm not sure that moving it would
accomplish what the original intent of the
condition was, which was to move it to a
conforming location so that that side yard
remained open somewhat because, by adding the
deck, you decrease the side yard considerably
so we were concerned about having to jog
around the shower to get in and out of your
side yard.
Does anyone else recall anything
differently than that?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to ask
Mr. Pollio, you did build the shower, this was
no built by the Learys?
MR. POLLIO: No, no, no. I built it as I
noted earlier --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Before the deck.
MR. POLLIO: -- before the deck. As soon
as I bought it, in 2002, after calling the
Building Department and asking them what the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
proper location would be.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I remember
significant testimony from the neighbors
regarding blocking a water view or something
of that nature.
MR. POLLIO: No, no. That's not my
property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, that's the
other property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's not your
property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: That's the other
guy with the shed. That's the property that
you access from Jane Martin's --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, there was anther
(inaudible) but there was also another issue
on this particular piece of property when Mr.
Leary, who I knew quite well, was renovating
the house prior to your purchasing it. So
that's probably --
So we've had no complaints from the
neighbors regarding this particular location
and subsequently the hedgerow has grown up
adjacent to it.
MR. POLLIO: I never blocked or cut down
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the hedgerow.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, no. Yeah, I'm -
that's grown significantly ad it's kind of
shielding it.
MR. POLLIO: Oh yeah. In fact, the
package reflects they've all approved and
signed off that this is the actual location
and, in fact, they would object to any other
location, which would be conforming.
MEMBER HORNING: Tell us again what the
Building Department told you when you
originally asked them about building.
MR. POLLIO: Well, I didn't -- I had no
idea that the shower was nonconforming for six
years and then when I went to apply for the
building permit for the deck, through Rob
Lenhart, the Building Department or the
variance, you guys put in a condition that the
shower was not conforming and it had to be
moved so, therefore, then I brought this
hearing. That's how it all came about.
MEMBER HORNING:
shower when you built
MR. POLLIO: No.
need a permit.
You got a permit for the
it?
I was told I didn't
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
was doing the
when I put it
correct spot.
relevant.
MEMBER HORNING: You went to the Building
Department --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's if it had
been placed in the correct yard, but you did
not put it where --
MR. POLLIO: I misinterpreted -- you
know, I'm not saying they're at fault, I
probably interpreted it wrong. I heard two
feet from the property line in the rear yard.
I mean if you look at where the shower is it's
kind of in the rear of the yard. As a
layperson, (inaudible) business I thought I
appropriate spot. I thought
in I thought it was in the
I don't know if that's
MEMBER HORNING: That's why I'm asking.
I mean it's relevant what you say. How it
affects the decision is a different matter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I don't know
how the other Board members feel, but we have
a choice. We really were not taking testimony
previously on the shower. We were looking at
the deck, which was granted. You will not be
able to get a CO on your deck until you meet
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this condition --
MR. POLLIO: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- of moving the
shower, or we remove the condition or we grant
a variance, which is not really what's before
us, to permit the shower to remain in the
nonconforming side yard. All of the above.
MR. POLLIO: If I may, if I ever sell,
which hopefully I never intend to do, I love
this spot, I would like to be able to show any
prospective purchaser that the shower is in
fact legal.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course and the
deck as well. I mean you have to have a CO on
these structures. I don't
questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I see what you're saying,
really have any
don't either.
And I really don't,
it's a very open
kind of common green area and placing it in a
conforming location will make it very
conspicuous. You'd have to probably put a lot
of shrubs around it to hide it and, you know,
I honestly think that emergency access in that
side yard is not possible with or without the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
shower there, so that to me is moot and I
don't really have an issue here.
MEMBER HORNING: I don't either.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
decision.
I don't either.
I don't either.
And I'm writing the
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm ready to vote yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we'll
close, reserve decision until we have a draft
in front of us.
Okay, anyone else
wishes to address this
in the audience who
application?
Hearing no further comments, I'll
reserve
Okay.
make a motion to close the hearing,
decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6388 - Regina's Garden, LLC
(adj. from July 29, 2010)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, is there
anyone here who is representing that
application? Would you please come to the
podium and would you please state your name
for the record?
MR. HARBES:
Harbes.
It's being tape recorded.
Certainly, my name is Edward
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and would you
like to tell us about this application, what
it is you want to do?
MR. HARBES: The property was formerly a
retail florist and garden center. We
purchased the property approximately four
years ago, a little over four years ago, and
we would like to convert the former florist
shop into a farm office.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is a permitted
use, if we grant it. Code permitted number of
uses per bulk schedule, what is that that
there is a residential component on there?
There's a house also on the property?
MR. HARBES: Correct. There's a house
and some greenhouses.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CFUtIRPERSON WEISMAN: And greenhouses,
right. We've all actually been there to do a
site inspection. We have notes from the
Planning Board that point out in this
application that you are actually reducing the
intensity of the use. The former use as a
retail florist involved a whole lot more
people coming and going than would be the case
with your private farm office, I presume.
MR. HARBES: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. I think
it's pretty straightforward. The only thing
that the site plan - Planning Board is
requiring some onsite parking review. I guess
you know about that. They want to see, I
guess, where you're going to park the cars.
Okay, I guess you'll probably have some.
MR. HARBES: The parking of the cars
would be to the west of the dwelling that's
also on that parcel.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's
something that the Planning Board would have
to address with them I guess.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: right. Yeah, they
have -- you're going through site plan review
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ZBA Town of Southold - Septeraber 23, 2010
with the Planning Board anyway on this; are
you not? The Planning Board is also looking at
this application?
MR. HARBES: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, okay. Do you
know how far along you are in the site plan
approval process with the Planning Board,
where they are status wise on this?
MR. HARBES: Pretty far along, I believe.
This hearing is one of the last steps in the
process.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: The parking isn't shown
right now on this.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So there are going to
be three uses, residential, agricultural and
office.
MEMBER HORNING: I'd like Mr. Harbes to
describe the use as a farm office in a little
more detail.
MR. HARBES: Currently, we have several
people that work at a farm office, my wife
that does the bookkeeping, a bookkeeper that
comes in once a week to assist her, my son who
is the farm manager, also has a desk for
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
different planning purposes not that he's at
it 8 hours a day, but he stops in in the
morning and checks his computer for messages
and that sort of thing, and that's about it.
MEMBER HORNING: Where is the farm office
currently?
MR. HARBES: Currently, across the street
we have a small building approximately 14 feet
wide by 20 foot long that has approximately
four desks in it currently.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, so I'm trying to
ask whether or not you would at the farm
office receive customers of any kind and need
parking for customers or is it just staff
that's going to be in the farm office?
MR. HA~BES: Well, occasionally a vender
will stop by that might want to sell something
or that sort of thing, but predominantly it's
for internal use.
MEMBER HORNING: And your retail
customers are going to be across the street
buying things.
MR. HARBES: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: They're not going to go
there like they would when it was a florist
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
shop.
MR. HARBES: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So, therefore, it's a
relatively low impact type of office, would
you say that?
MR. HARBES: Yes, I would say that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's actually
proposed as a second use on a nonconforming
parcel size. You need to have 80,000 square
feet per use.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Per use.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: D~nd they have 1.03
acres, 45,000 square feet, that's why it's a
nonconforming second use because they don't
have enough size property.
I don't have any questions. You know,
this is all subject to site plan approval by
Planning Board. Our job would be to grant the
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The additional use.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- additional use.
Yup.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't have any
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MEMBER HORNING:
use or third use?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
considered a second use.
MEMBER HORNING: Part
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I'd like to know second
This is really
of the agriculture
Part of the Ag
operation, so it's a second use. It's a
second use, it's not -- it's a residential and
Ag operation.
MEMBER HORNING: Got it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is a second use
that is a part of the agricultural operation
on the property.
Is there anyone in the audience that
would like to address this application?
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion to close the hearing, reserve decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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157
ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6344 - Theodore C. Martz, Jr.
(adj. from July 29, 2010)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you like to
address the Board, please state your name for
the record?
MR. PASCA: Anthony Pasca, Esseks, Hefter
and Angel, 108 East Main Street, for the
applicant.
Last time we were here a couple of months
ago we were focusing and discussing at length
the alternative proposal, which is really just
to re-recognize the 1978 variance. We
explored that a little bit more and provided a
new survey that shows the -- we've added the
clearing line to the survey. We've also added
a 15-foot buffer line to the survey, which
we're willing to covenant to leave undisturbed
as a non-clearing zone. Beyond that we're not
-- the alternative would not require us to do
anything right now. There's a common driveway
that would serve both lots. There's no
construction proposed. If that's the division
line, there would be no construction proposed
on the lots no clearing at this time. That's
sort of where we're at.
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ZBA Town of Southold
158
September 23, 2010
You know, we think we've built a record
that entitles us to a variance and we're
trying to pose two alternatives, one that
might be more acceptable to either the Board
or the neighbors, but we'd like to get this
process closed tonight.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. PASCA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
So would we.
I think that takes
for questions
MR. PASCA: I'll stay here
or whatever, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
this proposal is the one
Well, I assume that
that the neighbors
and their representatives preferred.
original
original
frontage.
MR.
The
application was to reestablish the
subdivision lot with the street
PASCA: I mean preferred is a -- I
don't know that they're going to say that they
agree to it. I assume they won't agree to
anything that we're proposing, but we're
trying to design an alternative that would at
least be preferable to them. Whether they
acknowledge that or not I --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we'll find
out I'm sure. Are there any plans at all for
new construction on either of these
properties?
MR. PASCA: If the division was done
along the '78 variance line, if all you do is
just re-recognize the '78 variance and add the
conditions that we're offering to add, there
would be no need for any new construction and
no new construction is planned. If the
division line is north/south along the old
subdivision line, then to effectuate that,
we'd have to do some construction because the
-- you know, we'd cut right through the house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The house, yeah.
MR. PASCA: There would have to be work
done. So one is -- I mean that's another
reason why the '78 recognition would be a
little, I assume, preferable for everybody
because it literally would require no
construction, no disturbance, no nothing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: If I might add, if we
recognize the '78 variance that this will only
have one curb cut as --
MR. PASCA: That's right.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- as opposed to the
other one where it went north and south you'd
have an additional curb cut.
MR. PASCA: That's right. Right because
where the curb cut is and unless you moved it
into the middle there's no way to have a
common driveway.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And this is for the
Board also the house or dwelling being located
more center between the existing house bound
property lines, east and west property lines.
MR. PASCA: Right, it would -- the buffer
between the house and the two side properties
would obviously be bigger.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It would be greater.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't have any
questions. Do you have any questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no questions.
MEMBER HORNING: Not at this time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's speak to Mr.
Rizzo and find out what the story is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, who else
would like to address this application?
MR. FLEMING: Good afternoon, members of
the Board. My name is Xavier Fleming. I own
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
lot 202,
property.
meeting,
161
familiar with the introduction of proposing
this alternative method of dividing this
property.
To begin with, I'm going to tell you
things that you know, but I want them in the
record. Mr. Martz bought this property
knowing it was a merged lot with a legal
nonconforming cottage on it in the back. Both
of his proposals for lot de-merge and
consequent building will result in at least
one lot being less than conforming, less than
40,000 square feet. The lot merger law and
the R-40 zoning was created to limit future
development and eliminate building on
substandard lots.
Mr. Pasca, Mr. Martz's attorney, in his
letter of July researched the property on
Nassau Point and found many substandard lots
below one builder's acre, which is today's
standard, but they were built many, many years
ago and the intent of the Town was to limit
future development. They recognized that it
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201 and 200. 202 borders Mr. Martz's
I was not able to make the July
I've read the transcript, and I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
wasn't sustainable to build on every 0.6 acre
lot that may have been part of the original
Nassau Point subdivision back in the late 20s.
My position is the rules have changed.
Mr. Martz, I'm sure he's a smart guy, he knows
that. He bought this property in a
speculative manner. He's hoping to realize a
significant profit by altering the existing
houses or perhaps knocking the cottage down,
which is an unknown at this point, and
building a new house there.
Mr. Pasca says in his letter of 7/21, in
the spirit of compromise, the applicant is
still willing to revert to the original
configuration approved by the ZBA in 1978.
The variance that was approved in 1978 pre-
dated the lot merger law, which you know, it
pre-dated the R-40 zoning, which is the
builder's acre of 40,000 square feet and I
don't think that the applicant has any right
or claim to a 32-year-old variance that was
never exercised by the previous two owners
including the applicant. The original
applicant, I don't recall his name, then
Monsignor Savastino did not exercise it as
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well and as a matter of fact, Mr. Steven
Fasino, Monsignor Savastino's attorney, in a
letter in 2006, recognizing the lots were
merged, asked for a single tax bill instead of
the two tax bills he was receiving on the now
merged lot.
Yesterday, I received a letter dated
9/21, yesterday late afternoon, cause that's
when I came home from work, from Mr. Pasca.
It didn't give me much time to think about it,
with his proposal #2, which indicates that he
would like you to consider a lot division
perpendicular to Broadwaters Road -- no, I'm
sorry, parallel to Broadwaters as opposed to
the initial request, which was perpendicular
to Broadwaters. If you have a copy of that
letter there, I'd like you to try and follow
along with me.
In the first paragraph Mr. Pasca states
that he met with some of the neighbors and
offered to meet with all of them. That's not
the case with me. I received no communication
from Mr. Martz or from his representative to
look at the site and have an opportunity to at
least see what he was proposing in 2.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
In paragraph 2 down towards the bottom,
he goes more over the proposed division line,
as per the '78 variance, will require no
additional clearing at this time, nor is it
intended. Now, intended is pretty ambiguous
because I don't know what he plans on doing
with the cottage and if the variance is
granted as per proposal 2, the existing
primary home on this lot will be on a
nonconforming lot and it will be approximately
36,000 square feet and the rear lot will be on
a newly created conforming lot with the
cottage. I don't know what his plans are for
the cottage, but I don't see any reason why he
wouldn't entertain knocking the cottage down
and putting up a 4,000 square foot house 15
feet from my property line on 202, lot 202.
I'd like to add that the house on 202 was
built by my brother on 1987 after the property
merger law was in effect, my late brother Joe.
It was situated next to my house on 201 to
give us both some separation and privacy and
it was also built as close as allowable to
that property line with the comfort level that
nothing else could be there in the future
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
because the lot merger law was in effect for
four years already and this lot was merged
either under Monsignor Savastino's ownership
or the previous owner.
If that scenario comes true -- let me
just continue here. The existing driveway
will likely continue to service the common
driveway. I don't know what ~likely" means.
If the cottage remains it'll probably remain,
if the cottage goes and a big house is built
back there, in my mind, it's likely that a
second driveway will be installed or this
proposed right of way will be utilized.
He goes on to say, "Should the need ever
arise to relocate the common driveway further
east towards the right of way, a 15-foot
buffer will insure the common driveway is
framed from the property to the east." Now,
that's Mr. Craig Cantelmo, my neighbor.
What this proposal does is, in my mind,
it relieves the Cantelmos of being the primary
injured party and it makes me the primary
injured party now because the potential
exists, as I said before, of a big house being
put 30 feet from my current house on lot 202.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Also in Mr. Pasca's letter of July of 2010, he
says, "In the spirit of compromise, the
applicant is willing to revert to the original
configuration of the ZBA in '78." As I said
before I don't think there's any (inaudible)
in the variance of 1978 and I certainly don't
share this spirit of compromise.
July of 2010, again Mr. Pasca, suggested
that my lots were checker boarded
deliberately. I'm compelled to deny that and
tell you that lot 200 was in the name of my
late brother Joe and myself for many years and
including prior to 1983. Lot 2 is currently
joint with my wife, that goes back prior to
1983. Lot 3, which is -- well I call it lot
3, it's 202, which is the one that borders the
applicant's property, was my brother's primary
residence. Upon his death it became my house
so now you have Xavier Fleming, Xavier and
Susan, Xavier Fleming. This occurred by the
death of my brother and it's no scheme to be
inconsistent, if you will.
In closing I'll say this, the detriment
of the neighbors and the community outweighs
the potential benefit of Mr. Martz in either
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
scenario, 1 or 2. The strength of the Code is
being tested and the quality of the
(Inaudible) life is being threatened and I
make a final request and this
timing of Mr. Pasca's letter,
than 24 hours to digest this.
is based on the
I've had less
If you can't
find to deny this application today, I ask
that you adjourn it and continue the hearing
so that I have an opportunity to look at this
more carefully than I had in the last 20
hours.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I ask you a
question?
MR. FLEMING: You may.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have had -- this
is the third hearing.
MR. FLEMING: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We've had three
hearings.
MR. FLEMING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I would like to
very much respect your request to have an
opportunity to reflect on what you've just
learned, we'll continue to hear what others
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
have to say, but we can certainly close this
hearing subject to receipt of your written
comments with a copy going to Mr. Pasco so
that he may also have benefit of that
information.
MR. FLEMING: It'll be closed to public
comment then though.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: After -- it will be
closed to comments other than what we -- if we
close it today, we can close it subject to
receipt of comments of various kinds. Yours
and others, okay?
MR. FLEMING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can hold the
period -- we can close it at the next special
meeting, you know, leaving it open for a
couple of weeks for more written comments to
come in.
MR. FLEMING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm trying to avoid
having a fourth hearing.
MR. FLEMING: I don't blame you, but I
think in view of the timing of the delivery of
this letter it's not an extraordinary request.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. FLEMING: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome.
Who else would like to come up --
MEMBER HORNING: A couple of questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, stay for a
minute.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, you were talking
about lots 1, 2 and 3.
MR. FLEMING: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: 3 being the one that's
called lot 202.
MR. FLEMING: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Off the top of your
head, do you know what the square footage size
of these lots are?
MR. FLEMING: That's 2.6 acres for three
lots. 202 is 0.9-something, it's the largest
of my three lots. I think it's 0.94.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. FLEMING: 201 is smaller and
improved. 200 is unimproved and serves as my
driveway cause there's a nasty hill there and
it would make -- without it being used as my
driveway it would make my house pretty
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
inaccessible on 201.
MEMBER HORNING: So you're using one
vacant lot as your driveway?
MR. FLEMING: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: And then the other two
parcels are improved?
MR. FLEMING: Yeah, lot 200 is, for
argument's sake, the driveway lot and comes up
the hill diagonally to go t the house on 201.
Any other questions? Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome.
Who else would like to address the Board?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'd like to hear from
Mr. Rizzo.
MR. RIZZO: Good afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Good afternoon.
MR. RIZZO: Mr. Fleming responded to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please
just for the tape enter your name?
MR. RIZZO: Sure. Joseph Rizzo, R-I-Z-Z-
O, 28080 Main Road, Cutchogue, New York 11935.
Mr. Fleming referred to a letter dated
September 21st that he received from Mr. Pasca.
I have yet to see that letter or refer that or
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171
ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
look at that letter. I spent two minutes with
Mr. Fleming very quickly, but I have not had
any opportunity to reflect on that or to
respond to it. With the exception of one
thing, Mr. Cantelmo and I and Mr. Martz met at
the property several weeks ago, perhaps a
month ago, and we walked around the property.
We looked at the buffer zone that was being
looked at and it appeared that if it was going
to be constructed in the manner that we talked
about it might be acceptable, however, the
problem that we had with that is that there
were other agreements that we made at that
meeting that are not reflected in Mr. Pasca's
letter. Specifically, the cottage on the back
of the property.
Mr. Cantelmo and I were very concerned
that that cottage could somehow be moved and
enlarged into a very sizable residence that
would not only affect, as Mr. Fleming
indicated, his properties but would very
deleteriously affect Mr. Cantelmo's property.
Mr. Fleming talked about moving into the
area in reliance upon the de-merger law and,
of course, that's the same thing for Mr. and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Mrs. Cantelmo. I wrote a letter to this Board
dated July 29th where I set forth the numerous
objections that my clients have to this
application. I asked that the Board review
this letter because it does set forth our
objections. Under no circumstances do the
Cantelmos agree or approve to anything that
has been discussed by Mr. Martz because of the
fact that the agreements that we made or at
least the discussions that we had at the
meeting with Mr. Martz have not been reflected
in Mr. Pasca's letter.
We're also very concerned about the
provisions of Mr. Pasca's letter that talks
about "might, maybe, shall", there's no
guarantee that anything that is arrived at by
this Board based upon their application,
there's no guarantee that it will stay as it
is. We have great concerns that if this de-
merger is approved of Mr. Martz selling the
property and billing it as something that a
very large structure can be built on.
I'm very concerned about the
conversations that we had because they were
not accurately reported to this Board so we
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
object in every respect to anything that Mr.
Martz and Mr. Pasca wish to do with respect to
this property.
Again, I ask you to look at my letter of
July 29 and that very definitely sets forth
our objections, which have not changed at all
since they were read. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else here
would like to address the Board?
MR. CORN-WELL: I'd like to read a brief
statement to the Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
please.
MR.
Cornwell,
State your name,
CORNWELL: My name is Thomas
I'm president of the Nassau Point
Property Owner's Association representing
almost 300 homeowners who own homes in Nassau
Point. I live at 500 West Cove Road.
My purpose here today is not to become
involved in any dispute between individual
property owners, but to state the
Association's position regarding lot size
variances. One of the purposes of the
Association is to protect and maintain the
property values of Nassau Point and we
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
vigorously support Southold Town's
comprehensive town planning lot sizes,
especially in light of the existing density of
Nassau Point.
Nassau Point is an area of approximately
500-plus acres with approximately 350 existing
homes and there are still a number of
compliant lot sizes available for development.
The math is pretty easy. Being already quite
densely developed, we strongly oppose any lot
size variances because, as was stated in a
November 23, 2009 memorandum from the Planning
Board office to the ZBA, and I quote, ~Lot
area variances can slowly undermine the
integrity of the Code when taken cumulatively
over time and consequently will negatively
impact the character of Nassau Point.
Furthermore, since Nassau Point is virtually
surrounded by water, the increased housing
density puts adverse pressure on the quality
of our groundwater and increases the
likelihood of pollution of the surrounding bay
waters.
important
wells."
Groundwater being particularly
to those on the Point who have
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
The November 23, 2009 memorandum
mentioned above is also attached and makes a
number of other salient points about lot size
variance with which we agree. We believe that
strict enforcement over zoning laws is
important over zoning laws is important to the
continued wellbeing of Southold Town and
Nassau point in particular because of its
unique nature.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
Do you have those comments in writing?
Okay, we'll make sure that all the Board
members get a copy.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I need to ask Mr.
Pasca a question.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Pasca would you
come to the podium, please.
MR. PASCA: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr. Pasca, you know
we've gone through three hearings here. I
don't see where we're going anywhere with
this. Are we -- I thought the last hearing
which was a very lengthy one was pretty
productive and now I see that it's not going
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
anywhere. So the question I have of you is
can you create a building envelope for these
people in this real lot so that they will be
aware of the fact that if anything is
constructed other than this cottage and the
cottage is demolished that it will at least
keep it away from some building lines or
property lines. I mean we have 1, 2, 3, 4,
property lines there. I don't think they're
particularly as concerned with the one that is
parallel to Broadwaters Road, but it seems
that they're very concerned with the ones that
are on the west side and the east side.
I mean we need constructive stuff here to
get going. We need to get this done.
MR. PASCA: Okay, I hear you and I'm not
saying we're opposed to it, but we also --
we're not getting -- we're surrounded by
neighbors and we're not getting anybody saying
if you do x, y, and z we will come out and
support this. I mean it might be the case if
that happened we could do something. We could
probably show a building envelope on this lot,
but one thing I want to point out is the
neighbors are talking about guarantees and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
what are the guarantees that nothing is going
to happen in the future and we built our
property with the expectation of x, y, and z.
There are no guarantees today.
This lot is a double size lot for this
neighborhood and if it's restricted to the
extent that we really can't do anything with
it the way it is now then there's no guarantee
that somebody will buy that double size lot
and build the biggest house in the entire
neighborhood as opposed to the -- all I'm
saying is we're trying to create a scenario
that would be the most conducive to not
needing to do anything.
Nobody's guaranteeing that somebody down
the road isn't going to want to put an
addition onto this cottage or relocate it a
little bit. You know, we don't want to lock
in anything to that limited extent, but what
we're trying to do is create the scenario
where it's not needed and it's not really an
incentive for anybody to do it that way. We
are willing to confirm that there'll be only
one driveway. Somebody brought up the idea
that maybe we'd be having a second driveway.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
We're happy to covenant that there will ever
only be that one driveway and we're trying to
create at least a 15-foot limit so that it
would never get so close, you know, nobody in
the future could ever move it so close to that
eastern lot line that it would dramatically
impact on them.
As far as adjourning the hearing, my
letter all I did was present a survey which is
the exact configuration that we presented in
July and went over at length for about half an
hour. The only thing that we added to it was
the clearing line and a 15-foot buffer. So
I'm not sure what needs to be considered. If
you want us to consider putting a, you know,
some kind of limited building envelope on it,
I could talk to my client, but I don't want to
leave the hearing open for another month or
two months just to keep that. I mean if it's
something we could do in writing have a
comment period if you want us to present a
plan within a week, you know, we're willing to
do that. I would agree to that, but I don't
want to leave this open for -- I mean it's
becoming an endless application every time we
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
have to break it's two months and I really
don't want to adjourn it for that long, but I
am willing to take your suggestion to my
client and if we can put something together
within a few days that makes sense, we'll
submit it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just let me say this,
excuse me one second. Being acting
Chairperson the last time, okay, and my fellow
colleagues saying to me, you know, we really
need to get this going, okay, I'm not speaking
for you and I thought we had a really good
discourse going on there. To be honest, I
mean it was a little difficult for the court
reporter, the transcriber I should say, but I
thought things were moving in a forward
direction and I realize this gentleman, Mr.
Fleming was not there, at that time, and --
but I think the only thing left to do is give
us a building envelope on that lot so that we
know that houses aren't going to be built
right on top of any one of those property
owners to the west, to the east, to the south,
southeast, whatever it is, so that we know
exactly --- they know exactly what the story
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
is. I don't know how much farther that I
could possibly have gone at this particular
point, excuse me gain, and that's it. That's
my suggestion to you.
MR. PASCA: Well, like I said, I think my
suggestion is if you give us a few days to
talk it through and look at it and if we can
propose that we'll do it in writing and then
leave a comment period open for the neighbors
to look at it and say whatever they want. I
mean I don't think we're ever going to come to
a point where I can come to you and say I have
an ironclad agreement with all the neighbors
and they're all onboard and they all support
us, but I can do my best to try to move it to
a point where their concerns are at least
addressed as best as we possibly can and I
think your idea of a -- certainly a principal
building envelope I think is an easier --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. PASCA: I mean there might be sheds
and whatnot, but we could come up with some
kind of a principal building envelope that
would at least address their concerns. I'm
not saying they're going to agree to anything,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
I'm not looking for their agreement, but I can
at least try to accommodate them that way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That seems to be one
of the concerns, so that's the next issue that
we deal with. I mean the Planning Board does
that all the time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the bottom
line is as you've said very clearly, and as
the neighbors are all aware of, there are no
guarantees. Should another lot be established
legally anything the law permits is
permissible.
MR. PASCA: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's that simple.
MR. PASCA: Unless we agree to put --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Unless you put C&Rs
on it, but even if you put a principal
building envelope down there there's no law
that says you cannot come for variance relief
from a conforming building.
MR. PASCA: That's right. I don't want
to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's not base this
discussion on that because the intent is to
really examine the viability of unmerger or
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ZBA Town of Southold - Septe~ber 23, 2010
not. Now we originally had one that looked at
a reestablishment of the subdivision lines.
That has, I presume, been withdrawn in favor
of this or not? Let's find out what your --
MR. PASCA: I want to leave it on the
table as an alternative because if for some
reason you look at this -- that was our
application was to reestablish the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right.
MR. PASCA: -- division lines. We pose
this as alternative A or B, whatever you want
to call it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so you're
giving us two proposals.
MR. PASCA: Yes. I think the preferred
version would be the current one, which is the
1978 variance line because it really leaves
the least amount of any work to be done, to be
frank about that. The other alternative
requires substantial expense to make it
feasible and as far as construction and
demolish --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you'd have to
demolish part of the house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. PASCA: Yeah, sure. So this
literally could be done and no work is even
done to the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. So that's
your preferred plan.
MR. PASCA: I would -- this is certainly
the preferred version and I would assume it's
the preferred version, although I say that in
quotes, for the neighbors as well that given
the two choices I would figure they would
prefer this version, but I also want to say
that if we do pose some kind of building
envelope, we'll pose it with the expectation
it would become a binding building envelope.
Not the --- we don't want to trick anybody and
so we'll come up with a, you know, we'll put
it in C&Rs if we have to, that's not a -- I
don't think that's an unusual request on Mr.
Goehringer's part at all.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think it's the only
alternative we have in reference to we're
constantly spinning our wheels regarding this
application and there seems to be great
concern about this larger lot in the back and
I could see why, you know, because there are
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
some larger houses in the area, one in
particular on the same road relatively close
to this, and I can see that they have a
particular concern. They would rather see if
there was a larger house built that it would
be in the center of the lot so that not
everybody would see it and it would still
afford their privacy that they have.
MR. PASCA: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that's my
suggestion to the Board.
MEMBER HORNING: I would like to ask --
so you're saying, as Leslie asked, the latest
plan is the preferred plan?
MR. PASCA: Yes.
MEMBER HOP~NING: What was the rationale
with the other plan then?
MR. PASCA: I'll tell you exactly why.
MEMBER HORNING: Please.
MR. PASCA: The subdivision plan was
proposed because it was the original division
line and the long lot configuration, if you
look at the overall neighborhood, the
prevailing development pattern is the long lot
side by side.
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MEMBER HORNING: Okay, right. I
understand.
MR. PASCA: So we wanted to show you --
MEMBER HORNING: Now, then what do you
deem the status of the 1978 variance, what is
the status of this?
MR. PASCA: I think that's up for debate.
We didn't want to press that issue and say,
you know, I have an absolute right to it. We
may, you know, if that becomes an issue. I
don't know. I think I have to do more digging
to tell you an answer for sure whether that's
still a viable variance, but my preliminary
research -- time alone doesn't -- you don't
lose a variance just because time, unless
there's a lapse provision in the Code.
Back in '78 there was no lapse provision
in the Code. There could be other changes
that may have led to it being no longer
viable, but I haven't seen them yet, so I'm
not going to stand here and guarantee to you
that it's a viable variance, but it may be.
MEMBER HORNING: I was curious what
(inaudible) convoluted in a way. You have
this variance from 1978 that was granted, then
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
you come with a proposal for a completely
different type of division and now you're back
to something similar to what the variance was
and --
MR. PA$CA: Both proposals and you could
say it this way though, both proposals pre-
existed. I mean the original division line
up/down, that also existed once upon a time --
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. PASCA: --
(inaudible) --
Sure.
as the original
MEMBER HORNING: But it may have gone
away with the granting of the variance.
MR. PASCA: It went away with the merger.
We acknowledge that and that would certainly -
MEMBER HORNING: Well --
MR. PASCA: There's no question that
because of the merger that original division
line doesn't exist legally.
MEMBER HORNING: Not to belabor the
point, but didn't the 1978 variance alter the
lot line?
MR. PASCA: Sure.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, then those long
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
lines that you talked about no longer existed
that the original lot division no longer
existed after the 1978 --
MR. PASCA: I agree. I agree with that.
MEMBER HORNING: All right, we agree on
that. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else in the audience would like to address
this application, please come forward.
MR. PASCA: Can I just -- if you could
recess for a couple of minutes we might be
able to talk and come up with something. Is
that doable?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'll tell you let's
take -- should we take some more testimony and
let's let everybody hear what everybody has to
say cause it may affect --
MR. PASCA: I'll walk out of the room
then , but we'll come back and try to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can -- did
you not want to hear other comments from
people?
MR. PASCA: sure. I just wanted to take
a couple of minutes before you close the
hearing I may be able to --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, oh yes, but
wondered did you want to do that now or did
you want to wait until you hear what other
people in case you want to take that in
consideration in your discussion.
MR. PASCA: I think that's better.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. SLATTERY:
record, my name is
Cove Road, that is
Good afternoon. For the
John Slattery, 460 West
on Nassau Point.
As a property owner and former president
of the Nassau Point Property Owners'
Association I believe that the protection of
property values is a core reason for the
longstanding existence of our association.
I've had the privilege and delight of
observing Nassau Point for more than 60 years.
For the most part, it continues to have the
same look and feel as it did when I first came
here as a child. While I agree that it is not
good policy for our association to enter into
neighborhood squabbles, it is important to
speak out in support of the existing zoning
laws and in opposition to lot area variances
in general. Our collective fear as the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Association is that lot variances hold the
potential for negative consequences for all of
us.
Here are some points to ponder as you
continue, as we continue I should say, to take
a broader view of relative to the character of
Nassau Point. During my two terms as
president there were several situations that
had the potential to negatively impact our
property value. In each case we provided a
letter of objection or one of its intended the
ZBA hearings. As I recall the ZBA
subsequently upheld the zoning law and the
position that we had taken. For us, it's not
about picking winners and losers, it's about
sticking to the zoning law that protects our
investments and the look and feel of Nassau
Point.
Recently I attempted to count the number
of potential lot splits situated on Nassau
Point. The criteria that I applied were more
than one acre, but fractionally less than two
acres. I stopped counting at 60. Picture 60
more additional homes on Nassau Point with
their negative impact on the quality of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
potable water and the bay that we all love.
Allowing a split simply because the new lot of
0.71 acres will be similar to the average size
neighborhood parcel of 0.73 acres is not in my
opinion sound logic. Given this criteria a
parcel of 1.5 acre three 0.5 acre parcels
could be subdivided into thee lots. Is that
what we want? This is indeed a slippery slope
because of the current economic situation I
predict that you will see more and more split
parcel proposals. When do you take a stand?
As in the past I hope it is now and that you
uphold the strong zoning laws that exist.
In my opinion, this is just one of many
applications to follow. I vote for
consistency and strict enforcement of the laws
that are in place. I agree with Martin Cider,
who in November of 2009, wrote in ZBA #6344
~Lot area variances can slowly undermine the
integrity of the Code and taken cumulatively
over time, obviously, it would not only be the
code at risk but the character of the
neighborhood and Nassau Point property values
in general."
In summary, when the Town initially
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changed zoning for Nassau Point our residents
applauded. Clearly the new zoning laws placed
a limit on further development and helped to
preserve the overall character of our
neighborhoods. I hope that you will not allow
our property owners to become the victims of
unintended consequence. Strict enforcement of
our zoning laws was then and is now a good
thing. Remember you can't unring the bell at
a later date.
May I approach?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Please do. We'll
make sure all the board members get copies of
your comments.
Let me see if there's anyone else at the
moment who would like to add something that
has not been said. Okay, I'd like to request
without in any way curtailing anyone's right
to be heard, to please ask you to be specific
and to the point to the sake of time that we
don't -- if there's some additional
information that we haven't discussed umpteen
times already.
Please. Go ahead, state your name for
the record.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MS. FLEMING: My name is Rebecca Fleming
of 110 Seaman Avenue, Apt. 4H, New York, New
York 10034.
Members of the Board, I'm going to read a
prepared statement. I want to thank you for
this opportunity to express my opinion
regarding this variance requested by Mr.
Martz. I am the daughter of Xavier Fleming
and I am the future trustee of the Fleming
property on Nassau Point. As a representative
of the third generation of Flemings to reside
in Cutchogue, I humbly request that the
committee deny Mr. Martz's request. It is my
contention that this matter be viewed in
broader terms than a dispute between a handful
of property owners. I think the Town Board
had it right when they instituted the one-acre
per lot requirement and the lot merger law of
1983. Viewed together these codes provide
clear guidance in a case like this.
This is an opportunity for the Zoning
Board to assert its roll in shaping and
maintaining the bucolic nature of the Town of
Southold. To grant Mr. Martz's request in
this case sets a dangerous precedent. As
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
you've already heard the Town's current
Planning Board agrees with us all here and I'm
am going to repeat it. I'm sorry. The higher
density that will result in granting this
application is not in the best interest of the
Town as ~lot area variances can slowly
undermine the integrity of the Code when taken
cumulatively over time." Allowing developers
to come in and parse the land into smaller
parts than is drafted in our Code books,
threatens the fundamental characteristic of
this town.
Space. In my lifetime as suburbs have
gotten more crowded and in response ex-burbs
have been built in rings round the suburbs,
it's such a pleasure to return to Nassau Point
and discover time and again how restorative a
little breathing room between neighbors can
be. In 1958 my grandparents built a simple
vacation home here with the intent that the
property always be held in the family and that
is my father's and my wish as well. So far
three generations of Flemings have enjoyed
this town's (inaudible) character. I consider
myself a representative of the third
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
generation as well as a voice of future
generations, my children and grandchildren at
least. It is my hope that you deny Mr.
Martz's request on the basis of the
preservation of Nassau Point as we know it.
If you were to grant this variance, the Zoning
Board would then create an environment where
others expect to receive the same favor.
To speak quite frankly, I expect to be
one of the only people in this room to see the
long term impact of the decision rendered here
today. Your ruling in this case will
determine the nature of mine and my off
springs' experience of Nassau Point and
possibly other generations. Will it still be
the quiet retreat my grandparents knew or
another example of suburban excess and sprawl?
May I approach to -- thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. BENDICK:
John Bendik.
My wife and I
Good afternoon. My name is
reside at 860 Carrington
Road, Cutchogue, New York,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA_N:
your name, please?
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Nassau Point.
Would you spell
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. BENDICK: B, as in boy, E-N-D-I-C-K.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. BENDICK: I'm sorry I don't have any
prepared notes. I'm standing here today
opposed to this decision, opposed to the
demerger of these lots. I have some
experience with the property. Several years
ago I appraised it for Monsignor Savastino's
estate so I know a little bit about it. At
the time of the appraisal as I can best
recall, there was no discussion of a split
taking place. As a property owner on Nassau
Point, I think it would be deterious to the
value of the lot to completely split them up.
In fact, I have taken steps just recently to
do the exact opposite of what is being
proposed here.
My neighbor to the west put her house up
for sale, she moved to Garden City, and after
some thought we bought the property. Our
house is on a 0.7 acre lot, which when we
first came out here I thought we were getting
a huge piece of property, and 0.7 acre doesn't
seem like much. The reason we bought the
house next to us is we didn't want someone
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
coming in as we have seen in other places on
Nassau Point buying a small house on a half
acre of property, ripping it down and putting
up a McMansion. It was our intent in doing
this to preserve the nature of Nassau Point
and I find it impossible to support this
proposal because it is in direct opposition to
what we had done. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we'll take
this comment and then I think we'll do a brief
recess for you to confer with your -- discuss
amongst yourselves.
MR. BOULANGER: My name is Arthur
Boulanger. I live at 1150 Vanston Road,
Cut chogue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Spell your last
name, please.
MR. BOULANGER: B, as in boy, O-U-L-A-N-
G-E-R.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. BOULANGER: I am not a north fork
neighbor -- native. I grew up in an attached
house. I grew up never seeing any grass. My
wife and I moved ot an apartment where our
grass was a flower box. What got me through
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the day was knowing that on weekends I could
come out to Nassau Point and see grass, see
trees. I don't see my wife and I as property
owners, I see us as trustees. Trustees of the
land and trustees of a way of life, a
community, whatever. We all owe a
responsibility to keep something that is
important the way it is. I tried as a teacher
to teach my students the value of history. I
think we also should look at the value of a
lifestyle that is different from the urban
blight. You don't have to go that far, you go
to the golf courses and you see huge houses
built right on top of each other where you can
see into somebody else's bedroom window from
the second floor. That shouldn't happen here.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I'm going to
make a motion to recess this hearing for five
minutes and then we will reconvene in five
minutes and continue. Is there second to that
motion?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(RECONVENE)
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MR. PASCA: -- discussed it with Mr.
Martz and I'll just describe what we're going
to put in a drawing for you within a couple of
days, hopefully.
For the -- we're talking about the rear
lot, which I think is the lot of concern since
there's the most vegetation on it. The
current clearing line on the rear lot on the
western side is about 30 feet, which would be
a double setback. We're going to show a
building envelope line of 30 feet so a double
setback there. On the eastern side, we're
going to double the 20-foot setback to 40 feet
so we'll show the 30 and the 40 which would be
double setbacks for the side yards. For the
rear we think we can pretty easily instead of
50 feet show a 70-foot setback to the rear to
make sure it doesn't get anywhere close to the
back lot.
I'm describing that, you know, we'll try
to get a drawing that shows that, but that's
something we'll include in our proposal for
re-recognition of the '78 lot that it be
conditioned on the doubling of the side yard
setbacks for the rear lot and increase from 50
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
to 70 and we'll, you know, if you close the
hearing today we'll just we'll agree to submit
a drawing within a few days as soon as we can
get the surveyor to put it on.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's fine with me,
but I'm only one member.
MR. PASCA: I'm just telling you what
we're --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that and --
MR. PASCA: I'm not
No, no. I appreciate
expecting anybody to
agree to it, but that's what we're going to --
without any agreement in place we're going to
put that in as a proposal.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think that we --
I think that what -- we can do one of two
things and I can pole the Board on this. We
can either close the hearing and allow a
period of time for written commentary and
response, or we can leave this hearing open
and close it at the special meeting, without
taking anymore testimony, but giving people
maximum opportunity to provide whatever
written commentary to review each other's
documents and so on through our office and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
then close the hearing on that date and at
that point we will begin to start our draft
and our deliberations and so on. What does
the Board prefer to do? Do you want to close
it today subject to a written period of time
to receive various comments or do you want to
hold it open and close it at the special
meeting; what do you want to do?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think it's always
wise to close it at the special meeting just
in case there is ome specific thing on either
attorney's part that we might need to have a
written correspondence with for any particular
reason and I've always believed that in the
23-24 years that I was chairperson. So that's
just my opinion.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMkN: That's why I'm
asking the Board.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I would go with
that, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It'll give
everybody a maximum amount of time without
rush to contemplate whatever further
information they would like to submit or
respond to. October 7tn is our special
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
meeting. So we will hold the hearing open
until that date and we will close the hearing
on that date, thereby allowing anyone to
submit anything in writing that they wish to
between now and then. After that we will not
accept any additional information cause the
hearing will be formally closed.
I'll
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
second that.
(See Minutes
That's a resolution;
for Resolution.)
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podium.
record.
MR.
members
HEARING #6383 - Sim Moy
(adj. from August 26, 2010)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Counsel is at the
Please state your name for the
ROSENBERG: Yes, Madam Chairperson,
of the Board, David Rosenberg, 666 Old
Country Road, Garden City, New York
representing the applicant.
I hope this meeting will be relatively
brief. Just to refresh the recollection of
the Board, at the last hearing some objectants
appeared by counsel and they had an engineer
who had prepared a report. Notwithstanding
our position to that report, it had no real
relevance on the issues because of the
questions about the bulkhead. The report
itself conceded that the house itself will
have no adverse impact on the bulkhead and
there was speculation based upon some, I think
he called it, preliminary quotations or
specifications or calculations, I think it was
that there could possibly be some question
about whether the driveway being so close to
the bulkhead would have an affect.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
Madam Chairperson, you also at that time
suggested perhaps we could move the driveway
closer to the house and there was a question
about the porch and the deck around the
western edge of the house. What has been
submitted now is as to those two and the only
two issues and I won't even say concerns, they
were just questions that were raised, and now
we have a submission that was made, which I
think completely now satisfies every objection
that the applicant -- the opponents had and
certainly answers any questions that the
members of the Board had.
If you look at the plan that was
submitted today, you'll see that the driveway
has been brought closer to the house so that
it is never closer than 12 feet to the
bulkhead and, in addition, we've changed the
orientation of the stairs going up to the
porch on the west side of the house so now
they lead in a north/south direction and there
are no stairs going out to the west. That
allowed us to bring the driveway closer, we
shortened that little parking area on the west
side of the house and made it in the front of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the house so that we have the turnaround room,
which Madam Chairperson you questioned I think
at the first hearing. We have 12 feet now to
the bulkhead. We've satisfied Member
Goehringer's question about the road with the
engineer, the conversation with the engineer.
I think we have now satisfied everything.
I would just again like to remind the Board
that this is a prior nonconforming parcel. It
was always in single and separate ownership
and the variances requested are the minimal
possible to build the structure that's allowed
in the use district to which we're in and, in
fact, this house is closer (sic) to the
bulkhead than several of the other homes that
front on Peconic Bay and as far as the inlet
goes it is further -- it is proposed to be
further from the bulkhead than, in fact, the
house on the west side of the inlet. So that
having been said, I really, unless the Board
has any questions about this plan that was
submitted to accommodate the concerns that
came up at the last hearing, I would just
answer those questions and then the applicant
is prepared to reserve any time to see if
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there is anybody in the audience who is
opposing the revisions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Mr. Rosenberg, I
believe our office received these two drawings
this morning.
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Board has just
seen them. I presume no one in the audience
in particular has seen them other than your
client.
MR. ROSENBERG: I just gave a copy to the
counsel who is from the same firm as last
time, but a different member of that firm.
Again, it was really addressing the two issues
which had come up before.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. ROSENBERG: Nothing else is new about
the plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: See what a
difference moving the stair can do.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just have a
question of counsel. Is it necessary for the
persons that you are representing to see this
plan? Would you like us to lay it down here
for 2 or 3 minutes so they could look at it?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
OPPOSING COUNSEL: (Speaking from
audience, comments indiscernible.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, let's do that.
I'll make a motion to recess for five minutes
and then we'll reconvene.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(RECONVENE)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Is there a second?
Second.
Okay. Please come
before us, state your name for the record.
MS. SCHOEN: Good afternoon, Madam
Chairwoman, members of the Board, my name is
Denise Schoen. I'm an attorney with the firm
-- I'll spell it, S-C-H-O-E-N -- an attorney
with the firm Tarbet, Lester and Schoen and we
have offices at 524 Montauk Highway,
Amagansett, New York, here today on behalf of
the West Lake Association and also
specifically for Mr. and Mrs. Kaminer.
I just want to say at the forefront that
we're very pleased with the revisions that
have been made to the plan that's before you.
I think this shows the integrity of the
applicant and also the integrity of the Board
in making the applicant go back to the drawing
board and protect the bulkhead, which is in
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the interest of not only the applicant, but
also all the homeowners in the West Lake
Association.
What I'd like to add today though and I
know we mentioned it over the last hearing is
that the applicant has already gone on the
record as saying that they are responsible for
maintenance of the bulkhead. What we'd like
to make sure is that the applicant puts other
future owners of the property on notice that
that is a requirement that that bulkhead has
to be maintained. So what we would request of
the Board is that you put or you require the
applicant to put a covenant on the property
notifying future property owners that
maintenance of the bulkhead is a condition of
your approval.
We would also ask that during the
construction process that a maintenance bond
or a performance bond be placed on the
property. This would be to prevent or to
provide insurance coverage in the event of a
failure or a breach of that bulkhead during
the construction process. As I'm sure you're
all aware, there will be very heavy equipment
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
and machinery moving around on the property.
There's a tremendous amount of grading that's
involved in installing the septic system and,
as we've stated on both occasions that we've
appeared before you, maintenance of that
bulkhead is extremely important to our
clients.
So we have those two requests that we
would put to the Board and again we would
thank the applicant for the revisions that
they've made to the plans. Finally, I would
just like a very, very brief amount of time to
allow our engineer to look at the revised
plans. Unfortunately, he's not here today to
cause he has a prior appointment with the DEC
that couldn't be adjourned, but if I could
just give him an opportunity to take a look at
it and assure me that I'm right that the 12-
foot separation is, in fact, what needed to be
done, that would be great.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Thank you. Any
other people in the audience who would like to
address this application?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you a
question?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. ROSENBERG: I would like to respond
to counsel's comments, but please go ahead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That was the
question.
MR. ROSENBERG: I guess let me go
backwards a little bit. We know that the
Bennett report from last time said that the
house itself was not going to create a problem
with the bulkhead and with regard to the
speculation that there may be some possible
impact on the driveway, it was really based
upon very, and I'm quoting now from the
report, very preliminary calculations.
I would have no problem with have no
problem with this Board conditioning the issue
-- this Board conditioning the issuance of the
certificate of occupancy that the bulkhead is
in the condition that it's in now. I am very
confident that none of the construction that
counsel mentioned is going to impact the
bulkhead. The only, and there is not going to
be substantial grading as there is 180 feet of
fill that the Wetlands Board or the local
waterfront revitalization plan suggested that
was permitted. We also have New York State
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
DEC permit that allows for 180 cubic yards of
fill and that's strictly to raise the
elevation a little bit because of the level of
the groundwater.
So -- and that is all going to be in the
front of the house, it is going to be on the
northeast corner, it is not going to be
anywhere near the bulkhead. Any equipment
will be on the northeast corner, it will not
be near the bulkhead. So if there is a
concern at all then just say we can't have a
CO unless we either the bulkhead is not
deteriorated during the course of the
construction. That should take care of that
problem.
The bulkhead is ours, we paid for it, we
installed it. It makes no sense that we
wouldn't maintain it
there is a dock just
owned by our client,
as is indicated before
inside the lake, which is
and they keep a boat
there so they also have an interest in making
sure that the inlet is safe and navigable and
that really is I think the only comments that
I heard.
As far as additional time and this is
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
something that I will strongly object to. If
the engineer's going to look at it and he was
-- had very preliminary calculations which
suggested that it may be not proper to have it
that close to the bulkhead for the one or two
cars a day that might pass over there, I don't
see how any further review of this issue is
going to do anything but delay. As we've seen
each time the Board puts this over for another
month and I'm not -- the issues that the Board
has raised, we've all addressed, this just
gives another opportunity you are aware of and
this is the first time, she's not been here,
Mrs. Moy is 85 years old. She's been -- owned
this property for 40 years. Every month that
goes by makes it less and less likely she is
ever going to be able to live in this house
that she's been trying to build now for
several years.
If -- and I heard the Member Goehringer
say that his preference is to I guess keep it
open and not close it today subject to a
written submission - if the prior application,
maybe this is slightly different, cause I know
there's a special meeting on that one, but I
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would urge the Board so that we don't
continually have people who wake up in the
middle of the night and think of something
else they might want to say, that we might
close the hearing at this time and if you want
to -- and if I can get a copy of it with just
a few days to respond -- give her a week to
put something in as long as I have a few days
after that to respond, I would really
appreciate if the Board would close the
hearing today.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
problem with that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
I don't have any
The point --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't know if
there's other Board members do either, as long
as -- I have no problem with your engineer
having a look at this. I think the plan as
you all see it, is much improved from the
original proposal and that isn't a problem.
We can simply close the hearing subject to
receipt of information from your engineer with
time for counsel to review and make comments
if necessary.
MS. SCHOEN: (Inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine, than you can
just simply let us know that you have no
further comments, your engineer has no
additional comments, whatever you like. Is a
week enough time?
MS. SCHOEN: That's fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: For both of you --
MR. ROSENBERG: As long as I get --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A week for her and
a week for you.
MR. ROSENBERG: That's fine. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Goehringer, I know
you had a question.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, last final
statement, we usually do this or I have
usually done this as time when I was
Chairperson and myself and Madam Chairperson
get along very well and we talk all the time
regarding certain issues and I'm sure she's
not going to be concerned about this, but I'm
going to advise the person writing this
decision that and we have discussed this
briefly -- that all heavy equipment stay away
from any types of bulkheads and I want to know
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
if there is any other heavy equipment that is
supposedly planned other than the driving of
these pilings, okay, which we know has to be
done by a certain type of machine and we've
already taken testimony, which I believe from
Mr. Fischetti which indicates to us that the
driving of the pilings is number one not going
to affect the Moy's house next door and is not
going to affect the bulkhead in any way.
Okay, we're dealing with sand here,
hopefully, and sand absorbs a lot of that
shock; however, we have on some of the parcels
on Long island Sound dealt with the aspect of
restricting during the remaining construction
to what we refer to as light rubber-tired
machinery, that is the lifting of plywood with
these elevated lifts that they use and so on
and so forth. That is construed to be in my
particular opinion, light rubber-tired
machinery and so is the case with backhoes and
so is the case with -- and I'm not referring
to the biggest Dyna-hoe that, excuse me, the
biggest backhoe that comes in to put these
rings in for the sanitary system, we are
talking about light machinery here to be used
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
on the site.
MR. ROSENBERG: Jerry, I don't really
have a problem with that. I assume you're
talking you don't want to have steel treaded
tires --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Don't want steel
treaded, you know, that's my advice to the
person writing this decision.
MR. ROSENBERG: And I will tell you I
wouldn't have a problem and again I can't
emphasize enough to the Board since my client
has already said it will maintain the
bulkhead. It is his bulkhead. He wants to
use the inlet. He is certainly going to make
sure that whatever construction manner and
operation that they're going to be using is
going to have the -- I don't think it will
have any impact, but certainly would prevent
any impact at all through his own self-
interest, not just to accommodate your concern
and the neighbors' concern, but certainly for
his own self-interest he would want that to be
done. So we have no problem with that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have any
problems with a C&R on the subject property
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
for any future owners so that the individual
who may purchase this property in the future
also understands that they will be obligated
to maintain this bulkhead?
MR. ROSENBERG: Well --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is not
uncommon for us to do this.
MR. ROSENBERG: I understand that, I
guess it depends on how broad it is. This is
Mr. Moy's bulkhead. He put it in. I know he
one other time or two other times the
Association itself has, I think, dredged the
inlet. I don't want that to now be an excuse
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me be very
clear this is not about dredging, this is
about the maintenance of a structure.
MR. ROSENBERG: If we're talking about
the structure I can certainly go along with
that. I just don't want that to be an
invitation to possible dispute later on that
sand was leaking through some of the planks of
the bulkhead although we do have a tongue-in-
groove planking on that, and therefore now you
have to dredge the inlet and that I would not
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
want to see happen.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Understood.
MEMBER HORNING: I'd like to ask him one.
I want to clarify one final thing before we
close the hearing. Looking at the West Lake
Association letter of September 15th, which is
very recent, there is more or less a statement
in here, I'll read parts of it. ~The ZBA has
requested updated grading plan in one-foot
contours. The new plan clearly shows the
addition of fill on all four sides of the
proposed house. This is in patent violation
of the wetland permit issued by the Board of
Southold Town Trustees dated July 22, 2009,"
which I have a copy of right here. That
permit clearly states that there should be no
grading of the property and no fill or other
material is placed on the property with the
exception of the amount necessary for the
sanitary system as approved by the Health
Department.
MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. Mr. Horning, I know
where you're going and Bruce Anderson just
whispered in my ear, the current plan which
was submitted it only shows that feathering in
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
218
the lot.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. ROSENBERG:
time (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING:
be violating this --
MR. ROSENBERG:
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. ROSENBERG:
Correct, so --
That did come up last
-- you're not going to
Correct.
-- Trustees' permit.
Correct and if we do I'm
sure there will be people calling the Code
Enforcement offices. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Bruce, you have to
state your -- you know how it is.
MR. ~2qDERSON: I have just one thing to
add.
CHAIRPERSON WEISNLAN: You've done this
before.
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk
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the area of the septic plan if you look at the
plan that was just sumbitted, not the one
they're addressing, it specifically has it in
one-foot segments and it shows that although
we will be at 8 feet around the septic rims
from there it feathers out and we are not
changing of the proposed grade on the rest of
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219
September 23, 2010
Environmental.
I just want to understand, the equipment
you are trying to regulate has to be on what
did you say rubber tires?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Rubber tires.
MR. ANDERSON: So --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And other then the
equipment that's used to drive the pilings,
okay, we understand that. Okay?
MR. ANDERSON: Okay, that's fine.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's all I'm
concerned about, okay, we do this all the time
on the bluffs, all right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's low impact.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah. The reason,
Bruce, we state this is because sometimes
contractors and the applicant is unaware of
it, may have an extra piece of equipment that
they need to park somewhere or they can do the
job twice as fast and they cause more
detriment to the site than they realize so by
saying that -- there's no reason that -- I
have a couple of pieces of --
MR. ANDERSON: That's fine.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- equipment, but I
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
don't use it except for my own personal use,
and I have to tell you in true honest
situations every time we have said that they
have come with relatively modest type of
backhoes to put the sanitary system in. We
realize that you have to put a cement apron
around the --
MR. ANDERSON: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's still a rubber-
tired --
MR. ASIDERSON: Got it. Got it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's not something
some vicious looking thing that just came off
MR. ANDERSON: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- H.O. Penn's lot
somewhere and I'm not -- H.O. Penn's a great
organization okay, but they have sent out some
equipment that I want to tell you would keep a
person up for weeks if they saw that in their
yard and I'm just mentioning that.
MR. ANDERSON: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else in the
audience that would like to address this
application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MR. KAMINER: I'm Henry Kaminer, 130
Midway Road, Southold and I'm the secretary of
the West Lake Association and again we are
very pleased with this revision and moving in
12 feet from the bulkhead line. I just want
to endorse our request that there should be
some kind of a covenant to make sure that --
not that the owners should dredge, that's not
their responsibility -- that it should be
maintained the part along the channel along
the dug canal should be maintained in good
order and that in case of during construction
there should be a bond and, unfortunately,
there is a lot of good intentions, but what
people do don't always fulfill their stated
good intentions and in the past we have had
evidence that in the past there have been
times when one type of construction was
permitted and a lesser degree was carried out
and that's why we were concerned. I can give
you a summary of what I just said.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
All right, any other comments?
Okay, hearing no further comments, unless
the Board had any questions or comments,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
hearing no further comments I'm going to make
a motion to close the hearing, reserve
decision subject to receipt of comments via
the Homeowner's Association's attorney
regarding the engineer's assessment of the
proposed plan as amended and with time for Ms.
Moy's attorney to respond and I'm going to put
a date on that. If we do two weeks that will
be the date of our special meeting which is
Thursday, October 7tn, that will mean that we
will probably not deliberate on that day, but
we will deliberate at the next public hearing
the morning of, which would then be October
21. We would need to have that information to
write our draft decision.
Okay, that's the longest resolution I've
made in my life.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
HEARING #6389 - John E. and
Sharon I. Wren
(adj. from July 29, 2010)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is a
continuation of previous hearing. When last
we met the architect for the Wren's had
requested an adjournment so that she could
participate, but clearly we did continue the
hearing to today although we did take
testimony last time. So we have received some
additional information from her and I would
like to begin by seeing if she's in the
audience here to --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
She is.
Yes, there she is,
okay. I'd like to take your testimony first
so maybe we could have the Board ask questions
or have you clarify anything you've submitted
before we proceed.
MS. KRAMER: My name is Meryl Kramer, I'm
the architect for Sharon and John Wren. Do I
present first and take questions later?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure. Why don't
you tell us what you've submitted to us?
MS. KR~d~ER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Give us a summary
for the record.
MS. KRAMER: Okay the first thing I'd
like to say is that we are amending our
application to remove the lot coverage
variance. We are now going to stick to 20
percent lot coverage and take out that part of
the equation completely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: The second thing I wanted to
clarify that is mostly just a technicality,
but it does really affect the way things are
perceived, and that is that the original
building coverage data that was listed on the
survey did not include the porch in the
existing house calculation. So truly the
existing house and porch is 1278 square feet
and the addition beyond that is 911 square
feet bringing it to a total of 2,189 square
feet, which is 20 percent of lot coverage.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you and we
have that information on the corrected survey
that you submitted with this --
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MS. KRAMER: Now, the remaining things
I'm going to do is to respond to the criteria
that the Zoning Board needs to consider when
weighing whether to vote in favor or against a
particular project. So I'm going to go
through them step by step again and also in
the same time address the concerns that have
been brought up by the neighbors and members
of the Board.
So the first thing is with regard the
character of the neighborhood. This
neighborhood is no longer a beach cottage
neighborhood. After the 1960s there have been
numerous projects and I have listed them on
the letter that I sent to you that have done
renovations and additions to their properties
and what I have done is gone through -- I have
included the tax maps -- I'm sorry, the
property cards of the projects that I have
mentioned so that you can see where I got my
information from and I just wanted to look at
some of the projects in the neighborhood.
The Pinto house which is across the
street has 2523 square feet, which is more
than what - I'm not trying to point fingers
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
here, I'm just trying to give you a comparison
to other properties in the area so we can see
size wise what we're considering because this
is a very small property 20 percent of that is
less than other properties in the
neighborhood. So I just wanted to make that
comparison.
The Illibasi (sic) residence, which is on
the southeast corner where we are is 3,653
square feet not including the 600-square-foot
garage with a room above. Now, we have opted
to include the garage as an attached structure
to our house, which is why our number is a
little bit higher than it would have been
otherwise. The Alessi residence is 1806
square feet, which is closer to what ours
would be if we had not attached the garage.
The Stein residence, which is directly west is
1,988 square feet including the garage.
The Kuchner residence, which abuts the
Wren's property on the south side is 2,542
square feet, not including 785 square feet of
decks and 400 square feet of pool. Lastly the
Ball residence, which is 2,513 square feet,
which again is larger than what we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
considering and that is again a 504-square-
foot garage.
So as you can see since 1948 when the
original 21 homes were built, 28 more homes
were built in the community that brings us to
a total of 49 homes. 10 have been completely
reconstructed, 10 have been remodeled with all
but one being made significantly larger. So
we're not asking for something here that is
uncharacteristic of what has been done in the
neighborhood thus far.
Now I know that we were asked to look at
a redesign and, of course, as an architect my
job is to consider my client's programmatic
requirements to try and accommodate them in a
aesthetically pleasing way and also conform to
the local zoning code and building code and
that's what we do during the schematic design
process. I've attached sketches here which
are not unlike sketches that I do during the
schematic design process and although these
sketches were done after the fact, similar
schemes to this were done prior to your asking
because you're trying to explore different
alternatives when you're designing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
So what I tried to do was decrease the
nonconformity. I stepped back towards the
road, I just tried an arbitrary number because
I needed to be significant, but I also needed
to have a working legal room cause you have to
have a minimum size dimension of 7 feet in one
direction for the building code. So I took
the 7 foot for the breakfast room and wound up
with approximately 8 feet pulling back.
So the first floor it works not as well.
We wind up with a lot of small ancillary
spaces that don't really belong to either the
kitchen or the front, but it could be
reconsidered, it could be restudied and
possibly work, but on the second floor it
becomes truly not functional. In order to
have headroom we need to have space under the
main ridge, we also need to have dormers. We
wind up with about six feet wide on either
side of the ridge. So on the one side that's
where I've located the laundry room, a
bathroom. To put that on the other side we
wind up with a 6-foot wide room, which isn't
really legal not even 6 feet. I mean it's 3
feet, it would be a closet (inaudible). So it
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
really just -- and we have to have physically
a 7-foot room in order to make it a legal room
and we also wind up with, if we don't do that
a 45-foot long single (inaudible) corridor
that goes to one bedroom above the garage,
which is just in my opinion a complete waste
of space. 3 foot long (sic), it's 45 foot
wide (sic) and it's accessing one room. It's
just not practical.
So that was just -- and I did try varying
degrees, but the bottom line is you have to
have a certain width of room in order to make
a room function and you can't move through the
centers of rooms when they're bedrooms. You
have to have a corridor to one side or the
other in order to maintain privacy.
With the comment about whether it's a
four-bedroom house or a five-bedroom house --
I'll try to move quickly -- it's really
irrelevant because we have applied to the
Suffolk County Department of Health for the
proper size septic and we've been approved and
the requirement for a four or a five-bedroom
house is the same. It's a 1500-gallon septic
tank. So we have applied for that with the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
knowledge that that room, the sewing room
could be considered a bedroom and we have
acknowledged that and we did provide for that,
although it is not, in the Wren's case, going
to be used as such, it's a sewing room and
Mrs. Wren does quite a bit of quilting and
will be using it for that purpose. In
addition, the Wren family is an extended
family and they have many children and
grandchildren who live with them and that is
the reason why they want to have a four-
bedroom house.
With regard to casting a shadow or having
any impact in terms of light on the property
to the south that's just physically impossible
because we are on the north side and if you're
on the north side of a property and the sun is
coming from the south, you cannot cast a
shadow. With regard to light, air, and peace,
the property to the south actually has 160
feet from the common property line before the
house. So we don't have a huge impact from
the visual standpoint and I would imagine that
from that property the water would be the
primary focus not to say that they're not
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
entitled to look to the north, but it is 160
feet from the property line to the house.
With regard to -- I'm sorry, there has
been a -- there is an additional letter that
was sent earlier in this week from the
Kuchner's attorney and I
and address that briefly.
in this house since 1947.
just wanted to try
Mr. Wren has been
His parents gifted
the house to him and two sisters and then he
subsequently purchased their interest in the
home. So he has been in this house and
occupied this house continuously whether or
not he was a full owner or partial owner or a
child of the owner is subject to question, but
he was in fact an occupant of the home the
whole time and I think the second concern that
the attorneys brought up was with regard to
whether or not the property was knowingly
nonconforming and, therefore, whether or not
this would be a self-created hardship and I
just I do have a copy that I can submit the
Board from New York State Zoning Code that
states that even if an owner does have
previous knowledge that a property is
nonconforming, it does not make it so that --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
well, I should just quote it. "It's within
the discretion of the Board of Zoning Appeals
to grant an area variance to a land owner who
acquired the property with the knowledge that
it was substandard. The fact that the
practical difficulties are self-created does
not foreclose the granting of an area variance
in an appropriate case."
copy of that if you would
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~LN:
So I can give you a
like.
Excuse Member
Horning he has
and he has to catch the
George.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
time.
to go back to Fishers Island
ferry. Thank you,
Thank you for your
With regard to the benefit sought not
being able to be achieved by some other
feasible method. I think I already explained
that when I talked about trying to explore
different design options and how for a house
with second floor bedrooms it's a physical
requirement to have a corridor with bedrooms
on one side and support services on the other
or bedrooms on the other side and because this
property only has a buildable width of 6 feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
we have to go beyond that. We have to make
this building nonconforming and in the 15
years that I've been practicing on the north
fork and the 25 years I've been practicing
residential architecture overall, I always
start with lot coverage.
If we go to 20 percent lot coverage and
that's what's allowable then you stick within
the preexisting lines of the house, that's a
pretty good staring point and I think it's a
pretty good kind of litmus test of whether or
not something is reasonable in terms of the
final result and I really feel that we are
allowed to go 20 percent and we are staying
within the confines of the existing setbacks
and we're actually reducing the overall height
and keeping within the aesthetic design of the
existing house. I really feel like it is a
very good solution to a difficult problem.
With regard to the requested area
variances not being substantial. Again, the
existing nonconformity already exists for 42.4
feet and we are asking for an additional 32
feet, but we have tried to reduce that by
reducing the lot coverage and we've also tried
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
to reduce that by keeping as much of that one-
story portion with a small dormer as possible
within the programmatic requirements.
With regard to physical and/or
environmental conditions of the neighborhood,
I would like to address the (Inaudible) and
Kuchner concerns. I think already have
addressed some of the Kuchner concerns. With
regard to the (Inaudible) property which is to
the southwest, the massing of the house at
that location stays exactly the same. We're
not changing the existing main gable structure
of the house. We are adding a dormer in that
area that is going to be facing west for light
and air and headroom purposes. Right now the
bedrooms, I mean, you can't stand up at the
edge of the bedrooms right now. So we need
dormers there in order to be able to have the
proper headroom.
With regard to the concerns of Mr. Stein.
Mr. Wren and Mr. Stein have discussed the
dormers on the west side and the Wrens have
agreed to have the windows that are facing the
Stein residence fabricated with obscure glass
so that there will be no visual access when
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the windows are closed to the Stein property.
In addition, we are upgrading the
existing septic system and we are also going
to be providing leaders and gutters to handle
roof runoff. That's really -- I'm not going
to go on and read everything, but I think that
pretty much summarizes everything that's
really critical.
Oh yes, the air conditioners. I
apologize. Mr. Stein was also very concerned
about mechanical equipment and noise because a
lot of the surrounding properties have air
conditioners that are within ear shot of his
property and he does not have such, so he
needs to keep his windows open. So we are
going to not locate our mechanical equipment
on the west side of the property we're going
to find another place to put them -- to put
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Meryl, let me just
clarify that the actual height to the ridge of
the proposed structure is 20 feet?
MS. KRAMER: I have to check the
drawings.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
proportion?
MS. KRAMER: The existing structure or
the proposed; I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what you've
got here is the gable portion will be
approximately -- I'm looking at #5.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The proposed
addition will maintain existing nonconformity
to 32 feet. The gabled portion will be
approximately 20 feet high to the ridge,
considerably lower than the allowable 35 feet
and approximately 20 feet
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
long.
The (inaudible)
will be 1-1/2 story with a roof that slopes
away from the property line and has a dormer
which is located midway up the roof.
MS. KRAMER: Right. Let me just -- I
believe that if I put that there it must be
true, but I want to check the drawings and
make it 100 percent. I believe the existing
ridge is 22 feet and we're going to come in
lower than that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It looks like from
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
the drawing that you're actually lowering the
height.
MS.
ridge is
KRAMER: Yeah, we are. The existing
27-and-change. I don't have that
actual dimension on here, but I will -- it
visually looks to me like 20 feet and we will
make it 20 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Because it does
make a difference along a property line as to
the overall bulk and volume and massing of the
structure and when the Code provides you 35
feet and you're around 20 feet, that's a
significant difference.
MS. KR3~4ER: Significantly lower, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I just wanted to
verify that for the record.
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does anyone on the
Board have any questions for --
MS. KRAMER: I have to say I want to
clarify that the linking structure, if you
will, between the two gables --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MS. KRAMER: -- maintains the existing
height of the existing structure, but the
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proposed gable is lower.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: Is the 20 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I have to write this
decision and you haven't convinced me that 9
feet is in anyway permissible. I mean you
haven't addressed it at all except for maybe a
foot.
MS. KRAMER:
sorry?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
setback.
MS. KRAMER:
I haven't addressed -- I'm
9-foot rear yard
Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I need for you to
address that. I need for you to tell me why
it has to be there.
MS. KRAMER: Well, I tried to explain
that in the drawings, that physically you
cannot have a second floor that has two rooms,
two habitable rooms that are legal size with a
corridor in between that meets the setbacks
unless we just say, okay, we're going to
disregard the front yard setback and we
decided we're going to honor the front yard
setback because it was important in the
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community to maintain that road -- I made the
aesthetic and judgment calls that we were
going to maintain the front yard setback and
maintain the rear yard setback, but I made an
attempt, very serious attempt to reduce the
rear yard setback, but it's physically
impossible to make habitable rooms --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You mean increase
the rear yard setback.
MS. KRAMER: Yes, I tried to increase --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In other words make
it more than existing.
MS. KR~34ER: Correct and by doing that I
wound up with rooms that are not habitable by
today's Code.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: While maintaining
the existing front yard.
MS. KRAMER: Yes, while maintaining the
existing front yard because unless we go
considerably higher than the existing roof
because of the existing slope of the roof and
the existing height of the ridge. So if I
were to demolish the entire house and start
over again and make a complete full two-story
house with a plate on the second floor that
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
was a full height then perhaps we could do it,
but even still we couldn't do it with two
rooms on either side. We could do it with one
room and a long corridor.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It would require less of
a variance.
MS. KP~MER: It wouldn't be functional.
In today's world of construction and
construction costs, it would be imprudent of
me as an architect to design a building that
has all of that exterior wall as a corridor
and only have rooms on one side of that
corridor. It's just not efficient, it's just
bad design.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you that
seems pretty inefficient, but I still think
that, you know, our Town had codes and those
codes, if we're going to grant a variance to a
code, we have to grant a minimum. The minimum
amount and honestly 32 feet carrying on a
nonconforming, preexisting nonconforming
setback for 32 feet in today's, comparing it
to today's Code, to applications we listen to
on a monthly basis, this is a huge variance.
It's huge.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
MS. KRAMER: I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And I am -- I didn't see
anywhere where you addressed that. I mean I
guess you're talking about programatic in the
sense that you have a -- you have been given a
certain criteria that they would like to meet,
that they want to enlarge their house, they
want to have five bedrooms. They need to have
a garage into the house also. All of those
things are what going -- the criteria for
designing the house.
MS. KRAMER: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you left all the
problematic stuff together and redesigned the
house in other words you set that thing back 6
feet or whatever and it didn't work out for
you. You know, it didn't work. I don't know
how the Town gains from any of that. Why have
a setback law that we can't somehow keep it?
MS. KRAMER: Can you have a property
that's 76 feet deep and have a front yard and
a rear yard setback that's 35 feet and not
condemn the property?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Wait a minute, wait a
minute. And have a five-bedroom house with a
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two-car garage on it?
MS. KRAMER: We're within 20 percent of
lot coverage though. We're within the lot
coverage allowed --
MEMBER DINIZIO: But there are other
criteria.
MS. KRAMER: -- by the Town Code.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There are other criteria
though. I mean lot coverage is one thing and,
you know what, I would be willing to grant a
variance on lot coverage in exchange for some
relief on that setback. In other words, you
have a garage there already. Listen, I
understand the problem, but you have to
understand the problem from our point of view.
I mean, this morning we had a man come in and
he was denied a variance because he was denied
a variance cause he wanted to put 20 more
square feet of bulk on his house to put a
cathedral ceiling in, okay. He had to come in
for a variance. Now, we're comparing that he
wasn't changing any setbacks, he wasn't doing
anything other than raising the ceiling, roof
pitch on his roof, and he's before us for a
variance.
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Now, we have a house that already exists,
that existed for many years, that is
nonconforming by well over 60 or 70 percent
and you're asking us to expand almost double
the size of that house. Honestly, I am going
to have trouble in my mind to justify that as
granting a variance. So I'm asking you for
the help and I'm saying to you you have to
give something. I don't know what it's going
to be as it seems like your requirements are
far outstripping the size of your lot.
Now that's -- I'm only one vote here,
okay, but honestly I'm looking at this for the
past 10 years and I'm seeing people coming in
we're denying porches because of this
situation with preexisting setbacks for
porches.
MS. KRAMER: I know.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you're asking us to
double the size of the house on a small lot?
How do I justify that?
MS. KRAMER: We're no doubling it, but --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Close to it, very close
to it and you know you have a lot of space in
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244
there that if you want to have bedrooms, maybe
you have to move your garage.
MS. KR3~4ER: Well, one of the things that
we discussed in one of the other hearings is
that one of the owners has an accessibility
issue.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree. I agree with
you that's part of your problematic issues.
That's all I have to say. I read your -- the
examples that you give, I've looked at all of
those, none of them have a 9-foot rear yard
setback. None of them. All of them have
pretty good setbacks, very good setbacks.
MS. KRAMER: Right, but none of them have
a 76-foot deep property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I couldn't agree with
you more. None of them have --
MS. KRAMER: SO it's unique to the
property and we have to look at it as a unique
circumstance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you, it is
unique. Thee is no doubt about that, okay,
there is no doubt about that having a 76-foot
wide lot -- deep lot is not something that's
unique. I agree with you.
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MS. KRAMER: Is not unique?
MEMBER DINIZIO: It is unique.
MS. KRAMER: It is unique. Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It is very unique.
MS. KRAMER: Yeah, I think it is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a small lot, but
you know what, small lots
homes on them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
have to have small
The 20 percent lot
coverage is allowed and that's what's being
proposed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. A 32-foot
continuation of a nonconforming setback is
being proposed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I am aware of this.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, now she can go up
35 feet, she's allowed to do that.
MS. KR3U~ER: That would be --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
rear yard setback.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
But not with that
absolutely. Bingo.
So the whole point
is you'd need a variance for anything.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Anything. That's right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And that's why
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they're here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But I see the size of
the lot as the amount of lot coverage that's
on that lot, I agree is not going to exceed
the Code, but nearly everything else does and
you haven't -- you reduced it by what, 1
percent and that's it, that's all the
compromise that can be had out of this 60
percent variance you're asking for on a rear
yard --
MS. KRAMER: It has to be a functional
depth in order to work. If we have -- I'll
try and do the numbers here. If we have 76
feet deep lot, we're taking away 35 feet for
our front yard, that's leaves us with 35-plus
feet. Ail right, so that's 41 feet deep.
Now, how much of a second floor -- we're
talking about just second floor here because
we need to work with getting through a hallway
with rooms on either side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but your
insistence on placing that addition were it is
is what's causing the problem. I mean your
insistence that you have every criteria met
makes a hardship here for me. There's no
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reason why you can't go 25 feet to the front
property line. I realize that that would
upset things, but honestly you're upsetting
things any way you do this.
MS. KRAMER: So you're just making it
switch from one --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Correct.
MS. KRAMER: -- one setback to another
and we're
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right.
MS. KRAMER: -- want to keep one setback
intact and ask for a variance for one and now
you're going to say we want two variances.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Now, I'm not
saying -- I'm offering to you, okay, that
there could be compromise on that part of it
as far as I'm concerned. I could write the
decision, okay, that lessens the severity of
that rear yard setback. Okay, now we grant
decisions for alternate relief all the time
and we can -- we realize, I certainly realize
-- I'm a property rights person, I have to
tell you that I find it very hard to believe
that I'm saying what I'm saying, but our laws
are laws and what we do on a monthly basis,
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you know, bringing people in for variances
that seem so minor and then even considering
granting a 9-foot setback on a rear yard of 32
feet on a property line, honestly, I don't
know how we grant that. I don't know how we
do it. It could be 4 to 1.
MS. KRAMER: Well --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Relief is sought,
which is the legal right of applicants, in
order for us to balance the benefit to the
applicants versus the detriment to the
community or vice versa. Those are the
factors we will have to weigh. We just had an
application before us today for an addition
that created -- where we are considering
granting alternative relief with a 9-foot side
yard setback. Okay, granted it gets to be 11
feet farther up, but we just discussed that as
potential alternative relief. That relief is
not terribly different than the relief of 9.3
feet in a rear yard in order to continue to
create a conforming front yard. To me the
visual impact is far greater if you offset
that front yard instead of maintaining the
conforming front yard, it's much more visible
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than what you would see from what is virtually
a non-existent rear yard. A 9.3 foot rear
yard is not a functional rear yard. This
property was established in the 40s pre-
zoning, all of those things.
We see again and again extreme instances
of nonconformities and then we have to look at
the character of the neighborhood to see
whether or not other circumstances like that
have been granted variances or how the
neighborhood had changed over time. I, for
one, believe that you've made a strong case as
to an effort to show as an architect that
you've tried every which way to create a
functional architectural addition. After all
there is a hardship for an applicant who has
to invest money in something that doesn't work
for them.
They have a difficult situation, many
houses in that area have been improved over
time and they've also had nonconformity. I
want to carefully study this record and the
information you've provided us and as Jim
says, the Board consists of five people. He
is the assigned member to write a draft, but
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we all own the draft. I mean whoever writes a
draft, other board members can accept or write
an alternative draft or change. We do this
all the time in deliberation. So I'm not
going to predict the outcome, but I think you
have a very difficult situation and I think
there are as many people from the letters
we've gotten who support this as applied for
as those who are concerned about it.
I think you've made a very strong case in
addressing the concerns of the neighbors in
terms of privacy, noise and so on. There is
nothing to prevent the Wrens from creating a
long row of arborvitae or hedgerow or whatever
they want to -- without any variance at all --
to completely block off their rear yard from
the property to the south. Nothing to prevent
them from doing that whatsoever.
So I think we just have to see how it
unfolds. I want to hear if any other board
members have any other comments or questions
that they'd like to ask of the architect and I
want to see if there's anybody else in the
audience who'd like to make some comments.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not at this time.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, is there
anyone else who would like to speak?
MS. KRAMER: I just want to reiterate
what you said very briefly and that is that,
you know, as an architect we want to make an
informed judgment call as to the visual
impact, among other things, of the house and
it was my judgment call and I still feel very
strongly about this, but maintaining the front
yard setback, maintaining the architectural
design of the house and maintaining the
existing ridgeline was in the best interests
of this project.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to say one
thing cause I think you both are wrong. I
realize you['re both architects, but the
setbacks aren't for the property line. The
setbacks were created so the property owner
would have a rear yard. Okay, the setbacks
were created to protect the property owners'
neighbors, that's why we have setbacks. So
that every house is orderly, that every house
comes in compliance in some way or another.
Okay, I realize that as architects you
look at the aesthetic part of it. The Code
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doesn't look at that, okay, that's one very
small part of the entire variance process.
What I'm looking to do is protect the
neighbors, 35 feet the Town has agreed to
protect the neighbors in the rear yard on this
particular piece of property.
MS. KP3~4ER: But this --
MEMBER DINIZIO: So continuing that after
we made the Walz decision, after we had a
discussion with a gentleman cause his house is
cocked and his house is going to be 5 feet to
the property line we had a very long
discussion with him on a side yard, a side
yard is different than a rear yard, okay,
people have a right to expect that their back
yard is going to be their back yard and that
they're not going to have a house within 9
feet --
MS. KR3~MER: They have a -- the adjacent
neighbor has 160 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You don't benefit from
where they placed their house. Okay, you
benefit from where you put your house. Okay,
I understand (inaudible) and honestly, you
know, if we were just looking at aesthetics
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it's a beautiful, it's going to be wonderful
on a one-acre piece of property. So and again
all of the decisions that you gave me, I
looked at all of them, none of them would have
required a variance of this size, would have
required a variance even 50 percent of this
size.
MS. KRAMER: But none of them have a 76-
foot depth.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Bingo, I agree with you.
MS. KIAAMER: That's the key.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but you want
their house on your property. It doesn't
work, it's too small. This lot is too small
and our Code, everything that we've been
working for, that I've been involved in for 25
years is we're making things more and more
nonconforming. We're making lots that used to
be quarter acre lots, half
acre, now it's two acres.
because that's the way the
acre lots, up to an
Okay, that's all
town people, the
boards have decided they want the Town to go.
Now, this is fine, I don't agree with
that, quite honestly. I think a person's
property is his property as long as when my
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house burns down it doesn't burn down the next
house, I think it's safe. Okay. But that
isn't what we have here and that isn't what
I've been telling people for the past 10
years. You know, we've been telling people
you can't have it because the bulk of the
house is going to be too much. You know, it's
going to be too high. Your accessory
structure now, because it's so many square
feet, has to be 20 feet away from the property
line instead of 5, which is what it always
was. It was 3 feet at one time, okay,
depending on the size.
Now, all of a sudden, you know, out of
the blue we have a 76-foot wide (sic) lot and
you want to continue a 9-foot setback on a
rear yard? Again, I'll reiterate that setback
is not your setback, that setback is for your
neighbors and they have a right to expect that
the Codes would be adhered to as well as they
can be. I realize it's a preexisting house
and I realize that you may want to expand it
in some way. It's a most unique house. The
whole neighborhood is very unique I mean I
know (Inaudible), I know Mr. Nicholls, I know
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the whole 9 yards down there. I used to
hangout down there, but I'm thinking maybe you
have to try and redesign it or do something
and only -- my only reason for offering front
yard setbacks is as a possible way of perhaps
you getting some relief so you could have a
five-bedroom house or a three-bedroom house,
whatever size it has to be.
Okay, so it's nothing personal, but --
MS. KRAMER I'm not taking it personally.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- architects, I know
Leslie does it, honestly that is not what our
Code considers. Our Code doesn't consider how
the house looks or whether it is the same
design as the house that's there right now and
addition. Honestly, that's very small part
although it's getting more and more cause
Leslie's involved. Take no offense, Leslie,
but honestly we never thought about that
before. If someone wanted to put a shed on
their house, it could be anything they wanted
as long as they were (inaudible).
MS. KRAMER: You don't want to say that
to an architect.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have nothing to
do with the design that an applicant --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but you consider it
a lot more than most of us do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think
that's a fair comment, to be honest.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I really don't.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll point it out to you
next time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I am here to uphold
whatever variance relief the applicant is
seeking to determine whether or not it's
reasonable within, you know that's what the
law asks us to do, nothing more. Okay and if
someone has proven in the record that they've
made every attempt to mitigate a nonconformity
and have found that they cannot legally to
code build a room that will fit without
creating an even high sheer wall of 35 feet as
opposed to 20, which will have a far greater
impact, both in terms of Walz and in terms of
streetscape and in terms of rear yard, then to
me that isn't about aesthetic that's about
building codes. That's about what you can
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legally do. This applicant is burdened
significantly with doing anything to that
house, anything.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But Leslie, you just --
what you just said is that
(inaudible) because you're
zero to 20 is okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
it may continue
saying going from
Pardon?
MEMBER DINIZIO: You said going from zero
feet, which is no house there, to 20 feet is
not --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 20 feet is less
than what they have now.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's less than what
they're allowed, but guess what they're not
allowed to do anything there. Anything they
do there is an increase in the nonconformity.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're allowed to
do what we as a board determine they can get
relief from the Code.
to be here.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
appeal that decision.
They are allowed by law
They are allowed to
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We are allowed to grant
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them relief, I'll agree with you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right and it
is up to this board to determine the nature of
that relief collectively and that's what we'll
do.
MEMBER DINIZIO: For the minimum, to the
minimum extent possible.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right.
That's what the law requires the minimum
variance possible.
I want to hear if there's anyone else in
the audience --
MS. KP3d~ER: Thank you for your time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- did you have
comments or questions, Ken, Jerry?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else in the
audience would like to address this, please
come to the podium.
MS. SCHOEN: Good afternoon once again.
My name is Denise Schoen. I'm an attorney
with the firm Tarbet, Lester and Schoen and
our offices are located at 524 Montauk Highway
in Amagansett, New York. I'm here today on
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behalf of Dr. and Mrs. Kuchner who reside at
1726 Arshamomque Avenue immediately adjacent
to the subject property.
Unfortunately, I'm at the same
disadvantage I was at the last hearing in that
I haven't seen the new submission; however, I
did hear a summary of it and I feel competent
to at least comment on the contents of that,
but would like to have an opportunity to
further review the contents of that letter.
It seems to me that the first question
that jumps out in my mind with respect to the
submission is the examples that were given and
I think Member Dinizio pointed out that if the
properties that were brought up as examples
don't have the same type of encroachment on
the rear yard setback as the one in this case,
then they aren't necessarily as relevant as
the architect may have made them seem.
I understand that there's been a pattern
of development probably on all of the east end
that cottages are turning into larger houses,
but I think it's apropos to say that small
lots mean small houses, that's why we have
zoning codes and to ask the Kuchner's to bear
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the entire burden of this application is not
only unfair, but doesn't meet the standards
set forth in the Town law with respect to
zoning. I understand that there's also been
other submissions to the record from other
property owners both in favor and in
opposition to the application. I would like
to point out on the chart that (inaudible,
moved away from mike) that the majority of the
owners that are affected significantly are in
opposition to the application although I
understand that maybe further conversations
with Mr. Stein (inaudible) are all immediately
behind the subject property.
As you're all well aware the existing
residence is situated a nonconforming distance
of 9.4 feet from the rear property line where
a 35-foot setback is required by the zoning
Code. The applicants have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me, can I
just interrupt you?
MS. SCHOEN: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm sorry, I don't
mean to interrupt your flow, but we have to
change the tapes.
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MS. SCHOEN: No problem.
(TAPE CH3tlqGE TO #4)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, please
continue. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt.
MS. SCHOEN: That's okay, I hope that's
your last tape of the day.
I understand that the architect's
position is that the lot is insufficient in
depth size, it's 76-feet deep, which of course
is not in keeping with current zoning
regulations; however, what I would say to that
is that you have to work within the confines
of your own lot. To suggest that the litmus
test for building on this property is the
existing setback from the rear yard lot line
would presume that there are no other
alternatives for the applicant other than
further encroaching and making the situation
worse for the Kuchners than it already is
today and what I would say to that is that
while we understand the importance of
maintaining the front yard setback there is an
additional 6 feet that the property owner has
mentioned that is conforming and, of course,
some encroachment into the front yard setback
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I believe the Board may look upon favorably in
exchange for giving the Kuchner's a little
more breathing room on their own property
line.
The standard of both the Chairwoman and
Member Dinizio mentioned is whether the
benefit to the applicant outweighs the
detriment to the community. The Board also
has to also consider whether the applicant has
requested the minimum variance necessary and
in this case the applicant clearly has not met
that standard. The applicant is not
constrained to use just the 9-foot setback
requirement that they're trying to adhere to,
that of course is not the minimum variance
necessary. They can definitely shift the
building to some degree towards the street.
We would hope that they would make an effort
to move it a considerable number of feet
toward the street, but they do have some room
to either reduce the size of the house or to
push the house or the addition closer to the
street than they are today. We believe just
on that basis alone the application must fail.
The benefit to the applicants in
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renovating, expanding their existing house
within the rear yard setback is clearly
outweighed by the detriment to the neighbors
as a result of the intrusion of the two-story
addition or 1-1/2-story addition now within
their required setback. As it stands today,
the existing house intrudes on the Kuchners'
rear yard setback (inaudible) approximately 10
feet (inaudible) changed --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you please go
back to the mike? We're not picking it up on
our recording.
MS. SCHOEN: No problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. SCHOEN: The proposal as it stands,
is to increase the encroachment of that house
within that rear yard setback by additional
33.7 feet and as these drawings indicate, the
mass of that structure is tremendous and I
would encourage you, if you haven't had an
opportunity already, to go and stand on the
Kuchner's side of the property. I know that
it's been portrayed that the house is, you
know, somewhat like a football field away, but
it's really tight back there and these houses
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are tight up against one another and the
Kuchners do have a reasonable expectation of
using their property in a manner that gives
them privacy. Even if they are a waterfront
lot, they can still of course use their rear
yard or their front yard, however you perceive
it, to their fullest benefit and they're
required to do that.
I think what's happened here is that the
applicant has gotten used to using or looking
at the Kuchner's property as if it were part
of their rear yard, it's not. They're
existing encroachment is tremendous and to
think that the Board would possibly conceive
of allowing that to continue another 33 feet
at the scale that they're proposing is just
mind boggling.
As I stated before, the applicants have
also not requested the minimum variance
necessary. I think even in the submissions
that were made to the Board recently and
during the testimony that I heard today there
is no compelling argument that they need to
continue this nonconformity for the distance
they have proposed or in the magnitude that
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they have proposed. In other words, I realize
they want to max that lot coverage, but if you
have a lot that's only 76 feet deep maybe you
have to make some concessions. Maybe you
don't go to 20 percent, maybe you go to
something beneath that and get three bedrooms
instead of four bedrooms and a sewing area to
give your neighbors a little breathing room.
I think that's he character of your community,
that's certainly the character of the
neighborhood that I saw today.
You also have to consider the five
factors that the architect mentioned. The
first is whether it'll cause an undesirable
change in the character of the community. The
applicants are proposing to locate a
substantial amount of square footage, and I
realize it may have changed, within the
required setback, and we've indicated it on
the board. Sometimes pictures speak louder
than words, especially after I know you've had
very long day, but this whole area that I've
outlined in green is actually the area that's
within the required setback. So it's not that
a tiny portion of this house is within the
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setback, it's substantial and very large
portion of the proposed addition is within the
required setback. So in effect if you're
standing in the Kuchner's rear yard looking at
the structure, right now it blends in, it's
attractive. I think that with the addition,
although we have no problem with the aesthetic
-- with the architect's design, I think it's
beautiful, I just think that in that
particular location the mass of it is just
inappropriate. On a larger lot with a greater
setback, I think this house would look
gorgeous.
A property owner under New York State law
does not have free reign to encroach on his
neighbors' quiet enjoyment of his property
simply because his home predates the enactment
of the -- simply because his home and the lot
predate the enactment of the Town Code.
There's a substantial difference, I believe,
between the maintaining the existing
nonconformity and extending the existing
nonconformity by the additional 33.7 feet. By
extending the nonconformity, you're inherently
increasing the degree of nonconformity. This
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cannot be considered maintaining the existing
character of the neighborhood by any stretch
of the imagination and I would refer the
Board, again, to the Walz decision on that
point.
I would just also point out, and I think
the visual aids help, that the height of the
residence also has a direct correlation to the
degree that it will detriment the neighboring
properties by its proximity to the rear yard
lot line. In particular, Mr. and Mrs. Kuchner
will have to look at the house looming over
their property line for many, many years to
come. These neighbors, Mr. and Mrs. Kuchner,
presently enjoy a southern exposure in the
rear of their yard. I realize that the
applicant says that the house won't cause a
shadow and I'm not so sure that the shadow is
rally the problem. As the Chairwoman said, we
would be fine with a hedge that screened the
property line, that would be great to look at,
it's the expansion of that structure, the mass
of that structure that is objectionable.
The extent of the variance that the
applicant is requesting is excessive and is
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
out of character with the surrounding
properties. This is quite frankly what I
would consider to be an estate size home that
is not appropriate for a 10,000-square-foot
lot. The applicant's proposal to nearly
double the footprint of the existing principal
dwelling while simultaneously encroaching on
the already lessened rear yard setback by more
than 25 feet is entirely inconsistent with the
zoning Code.
I don't want to repeat what I've already
said.
The requested variances, as I stated, are
substantial. Member Dinizio at the last
public hearing stated that he didn't believe
that you've ever granted a variance of this
magnitude before and I understand you may be
considering one or at least you did consider
one today, but I don't know how applicable it
is to this situation.
This is hardly surprising considering
that the rear yard setback variance for the
reconstructed residence is 73 percent of the
required setback of 35. So the addition
actually -- the variance that's required is 73
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
percent of what's required under the existing
Town Code.
We believe that the grant of the
requested variances will have an adverse
impact the physical environmental condition of
the neighborhood. As I've stated previously,
the construction of the new addition in such
close proximity to the property line will
affect Mr. and Mrs. Kuchner and certainly Mr.
and Mrs. Moreland significantly and affect
their quality of life. The applicants are
seeking substantial variances without any
effort appearing to have been made to
accommodate or to help their neighbors in any
way.
We realize there has been letters
submitted by other neighbors, but they are not
as directly impacted as the Kuchners and the
Morelands who are in favor of the application,
but of course what they're going to see from
the street is the continuation of the existing
house. They're not going to have the proposed
structure only 9 feet from their property
line. We do believe that the difficulty
causing the applicant to request these
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
variances is self-created and while the
architect pointed out that that factor is not
a lone determinative, it is something that the
Board should consider. I realize that the
property has been family owned and I certainly
appreciate that and I know the Board wants to
encourage families to keep properties in their
family for many generations, however, I would
say that when you inherit a property or you're
gifted a property like that you have to take
it with consideration of the existing
regulations that are in effect and the fact
that the property is nonconforming with
respect to zoning regulations. So that
whatever price you paid, if you did pay for
it, has to take into consideration or would
take into consideration the restrictions on
the lot and the inability to have a house that
may be larger than is appropriate for the
parcel.
In conclusion I would say that the
benefit sought by the applicant can be
achieved by a method other than the magnitude
of the variance that they've requested, but
directly impact the Kuchners and, at this
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
point, I would just open it up to any
questions the Board members may have and if
I've forgotten to say something I want to give
my clients the opportunity to speak as well.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're getting very
close to the end of the day and I'm speaking
for myself, but the Chairwoman does have leave
in a very short period of time and she is
welcome to speak for herself, but I'm speaking
for --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Jerry.
MS. SCHOEN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And so you know we
can do similar to what we had done in the
other hearing and that is we ask anybody at
the end of this day to put whatever feelings
you have regarding this application that you
may not have said or any new ones you may have
thought of during the hearing in writing to
the Board and we would close the hearing based
on that situation. I would suggest closing
it, I will make the motion doing it or I will
let the Chairperson make the motion.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to see if
there's anyone else in the audience who wants
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
to address this application before we consider
how to close it. I would ask however since we
have take considerable testimony that whatever
comments you make they would be something we
have not -- we don't want to revisit again if
an argument has already been made by anyone to
please keep your comments focused and
introduce new information
the interest of time and
Thank you.
if possible,
(inaudible).
just in
MR. KUCHNER: I will be brief. My name
is Eugene Kuchner, one of the owners of the
lot which is the one most impacted by the
proposed construction and the only thing I
want to do is convey the importance to me and
to my wife and to my children, the importance
of our back yard. The fact that we have a
water view if we look away from the Wrens is
really irrelevant. I prefer my backyard. I
go for a walk in my backyard several times a
day. It's important to me and to find a
structure which is -- and I haven't seen the
new plans, but the old plans have it 26 feet
high, 9 feet away from my rear property. It
would make me very uncomfortable. It would
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
make me feel as if I'm not enjoying my
backyard. As if I'm not getting the full
benefit of Southold. I think many of us come
out here to enjoy open spaces and backyards
and this is my backyard and nobody can speak
for me about how I feel about my backyard and
nobody can say that I wouldn't mind it if
somebody built a structure 9 feet away from
the property line, which is 26 feet high,
which is depending on where you count the
entirely new construction would be 33 feet.
It already is 12 feet which is going to be
elevated so that would also be 26 feet high
and then the area between the area that is
peaked which is now empty space with a dormer
would also be included in the ridge, so that
this 26 feet long span would be 15 feet plus
12 feet plus 33 feet and to say that that 9
feet away from where I take my walks would not
make me feel crowded I don't think anybody can
put those words into my mouth. That's all I
have to say.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, sir.
Is there anyone else that would like to
address this application? Please come forward
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ZBA Town of Southold
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September 23, 2010
and state your name for the record.
MR. STEIN: John Stein, 295 Hippodrome
Drive.
I'm the neighbor extremely to the west of
the Wrens' property. I'm just adding an
addendum to the letter that I submitted on
8/18, do you have that? Just for
clarification of the impact on the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. STEIN: (Inaudible) the two bedrooms
and the bathrooms on it that being the
property line existing there already roughly
at 13.9 feet and my ingress and egress is on
the driveway, which is rougly 9 feet. That's
our way to get in and out and having two
double dormers facing that. As you know, I've
been here from the first hearing and from the
letter I've addressed this to Mr Wren and I
(inaudible) and respect them for 30-plus years
I have no problem with that, but we tried to
resolve this and in meeting the architect,
Leslie at the time when she had said she
really did not know where the mechanicals were
going to be placed or hasn't thought of that
and also the size and dimensions of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
windows on the dormers, that's why I waited
about 3-1/2 weeks and subsequently didn't
realize anything and had to submit a letter to
that affect, but from the standpoint of the
visualization just wanted to give you that
type of impact.
CHAIRPERSON WEISNLAN: Tell us your name
again, sir?
MR. STEIN: John Stein.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Stein, okay, so
you're the adjacent --
MR. STEIN: Yeah, and I have the two --
now I have heard from -- I believe now that
this is going to be subsequently possibly
opaque on when their windows are closed or
not, but am I to the recognition that this is
not going to be voted on today or we're all
going to digest this?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It will not be
voted on today.
MR. STEIN: Okay, because well it's
really a matter of fact then as you can see,
but I appeal to you and I feel for you. I'm
from the town of North Hempstead and I'm in
the incorporated Village of Manor Haven and
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from 1998 to 2003 I sat as an advisory counsel
on the Board of Appeals, but I would just have
to mirror image Mr. Dinizio, a setback is a
setback and this type of impact, I know I only
have two double dormers facing me and I don't
have the expansion of the dormer going over,
but this is really affecting five subsequent
neighbors for one type of a property and I
think it should be applicable and (inaudible)
in that respect. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
Is there anyone else who would like to address
this application? Questions from the Board?
Hearing no further comments, I'm going
make a motion to close the hearing reserve
decision to later date subject to receipt of
comments from the Kuchner's attorney regarding
the submissions by Meryl Kramer the architect,
which you have not had a chance to review yet,
and then I will give the architect and the
client an opportunity to respond to anything
you may write. So we're going to do the same
thing we did earlier. We're going to take
comments for the next two weeks, okay and we
will close this -- no we can just close it and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
277
just take the written thing or do you want to
close it at the special meeting?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'd close it at the
special meeting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to do
that?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anything else?
MEMBER DINIZIO: What are we going to do?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to
close it --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Leave it open to the
special meeting?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can leave it
open to the special meeting to get additional
comments from the Kuchner's attorney and from
the applicants' architect and see what they
come up with and you'll have until October 7.
Everyone does, but you need, I think actually
in fairness, you need to try and get comments
in to us within one week's time from today,
week from today and that gives them, the Wrens
and their architect, a week to reply if there
is any and then we will formally close this
hearing a October 7tn at our special meeting.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 23, 2010
We will not vote at that meeting on this
because we will want to review all the
information submitted between now and then in
order to write a draft, right, so we would
deliberate at the next possible opportunity.
We have 62 days from the time we close the
hearing and we will attempt to get it on the
next regular meeting which is only a week
after. I'm not sure we can manage that, to be
honest. It's October 218t and if everything
comes in on the 7th, maybe. I can't say for
sure, that gives us two weeks. I don't know.
Plus we have to see how many hearings we have
on for that day because we may not have enough
time to spend on deliberations, but we will
get -- we will certainly take care of this as
expeditiously as we can. I know everyone has
been waiting a long time on this.
So make a motion to recess until October
7th subject to receipt of additional
information up until that time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using required electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
October 2, 2010
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