HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-08/26/2010 Hearing 1
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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
August 26, 2010
9:42 a.m.
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Chairperson
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member - start to 3:17 p.m.
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER 2kNDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
VICKI TOTH - Secretary
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RECE'[VED
BOARD OF APPEALS
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Steve and Olga Tenedios #6407 3-41
Judith B Ullman and Judith A. Moch #6403 42-54
William A. Penney III (Tidy Car)#6319,6336 55-75
Thomas M. and Maureen F. Dowling #6412 76-87
Michael and Renee Bellero #6414 88-105
Bonnie M. Quinn #6408 106-112
Andrew W. and Dana Queen #6401 113-121
william Gorman, Christi Watts-Gorman #6405 122-146
Eileen F. Debaney #6406 147-167
John and Daniella Venetis #6396 168-202
Orient Fire District
(T-Mobile Northeast, LLC) #6379
Sim Moy #6383
John E. and Sharon I. Wren #6389
Alexander L. and Tracy M. Sutton #6385
203-204
205-265
266-283
284-325
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6407 - Steve and Olga Tenedios
MEMBER HORNING:
~'Request for Variance from Code Section
280-15(F), based on an application for
building permit and the Building Inspector's
June 11, 2010 Notice of Disapproval,
concerning proposed two story two car
accessory garage, 1) location in a side yard
when a front yard or rear yard location is
code-required on a waterfront parcel, at:
17327 Main Rd., East Marion. SCTM~1000-23-1-
14.10."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you,
George. Pat would you mind?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, good morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: State your name for
the record, please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, Patricia Moore on
behalf of Mr. Tenedios. I have Mr. Tenedios
here today and I also have Mark Schwartz the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
architect, design professional.
We have an application before this board
for what would be considered a technical
variance, it's placement of a conforming, both
in size, square footage and side yard, rear
yard, all setbacks or required setbacks. The
variance is for placement of the structure in
what is technically considered a side yard.
The reason is we have had prior applications
and the Board has encouraged the applicant to
downsize, which this application reflects. As
I said, a conforming structure with respect to
dimensional requirements and there is no other
feasible location for a garage other than what
would be technically a side yard without
violating a front yard setback.
On prior applications we had requested to
move closer to the right of way. It's a 25-
foot right of way which is a dead end right of
way giving access to at most three parcels,
this being the seaward parcel and the setback
required from a right of way on this property
requires 55 feet. So when the garage is
proposed anywhere else, it would require non-
compliance with the front yard setback.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
So the application really does speak for
itself. As I said, it's a technical variance
because on a waterfront parcel you're
permitted to put a garage in a front yard
provided the garage is in a conforming front
yard setback. That would not be possible here
without requesting a variance. We obviously
do not want to put a garage or any additional
structures or any structures closer to the
Coastal Erosion Line, which is the seaward
side of this property, for multiple reasons,
in particular environmental reasons.
So we're here to answer whatever
questions you might have and we hope you will
certainly entertain this application and grant
the application as applied.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
George, did you want to start with
questions or shall I or what?
MEMBER HORNING: I'll hold off a minute.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Let me ask
some questions then and then we'll go from
board member to board member.
Mark may be the one who needs to answer
this, Pat, I'm not sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. Yeah, sure,
that's why I have him here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, why don't you
come to the podium, Mark?
State your name for the record.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Mark, how
high is the cupola and why is it necessary?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It appears to be 22 feet
to the ridge of the building. It looks to be
about an additional 8 feet added just to -- we
have the pool house also has this type of a
cupola so we just kind of went with the other
accessory building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that that was the case.
Well, I assumed
I noticed it's on the
pool house; however, I'm asking it because it
certainly does increase the bulk -- visual
bulk and height of
two-car garage?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
the building. This is a
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and with a
utility sink, there is no toilet being
proposed?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: No toilet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is a gas fire
heat machine listed on the plan. Can you tell
us a bit about that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I think he just wanted to
put some of his valuable cars in here. He
just wants to --
MRS. MOORE: Why don't you come up and
just explain that?
MR. TENEDIOS: Steve Tenedios, homeowner.
It's a Modine type of a heater hung from
the ceiling just to warm the space. I'll be
storing antique vehicles in there and
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, there is no
central heat or air conditioning proposed.
Okay. That's it for the moment from me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think you answered
most of mine. The building, however, is
insulated and is sheet rocked?
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes, it is.
MEMBER HORNING: No questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Okay. Any other
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
comments you would like to make or I'll ask
others?
MRS.
respond.
MOORE: No, just an opportunity to
Thank you.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course, sure.
Is there anyone in the audience who would
like to speak to this application?
MR. STANKOVICH: Good morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning.
MR. STANKOVICH: My name is George
Stankovich. I'm an owner and attorney
representing the owners of the adjoining lots,
4 and 5 at Brionn Gloid by the Sea.
As Yogi Bera said, ~This is d~j~ vu
again." We've been here before. There has
been a previous set of hearings and decision
on this matter. We have the same applicant,
Steven and Olga Tenedios, the same owners of
lot 6 in Brionn Gloid by the Sea. We have the
same objecting neighbors, George and Margaret
Stankovich, owners of lots 4 and 5 Brionn
Gloid by the Sea. We have the same house as
in the previous decision, the same pool and we
have again the same issue of an oversize
garage in a side yard. All of this has been
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
previously determined and apparently to be
ignored today at the request of the applicant.
They want to ignore the common law
pertaining to administrative law and the town
law pertaining to rehearings. We know, you
know and I will cite cases to you, to your
attorney, that in a circumstance such as this
common law principle of rez judicata, the law
of the case applies. If the applicant had any
dispute, dissatisfaction, disgruntlement or
objection to your previous decision they
should have taken it to the Supreme Court.
They did not. So they are bound by what you
said in that decision.
What did you say in that decision? You
spoke to the issue of the side yard and size
of the structure. You ruled that it should
not be -- a variance should not be given for
that purpose.
Now the common law with regard to
administrative law is that under those
circumstances there is no jurisdiction for you
to hold another hearing unless it is alleged
by the applicant that there is some change of
circumstances mandating that you ignore what
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
you decided several months ago or that there's
some newly discovered evidence that you -- was
not available to you several months ago.
Those words do not appear in the
application before you. There's not a smidgen
of mention of newly discovered evidence or
change of circumstance. Under those
situations the ZBA should even countenance
another hearing on this issue of side yard and
size of structure. Those are principles well
recognized in 2nd Dept of the Supreme Court
that controls us.
More pertinently there has been enacted
in this state 267A of the Town Law subdivision
12 that speaks directly to this circumstance
because ZBAs have been peppered with continual
requests for rehashing and rehashing of issues
previously determined and Section 12, which
I'm sure your attorney is well aware of, calls
for the fact that under these circumstances an
application should be made for a rehearing
that this hearing today should be noticed as a
rehearing unless you all unanimously agree
with rehearing, it goes no further to put an
end to this, but this is gleefully ignored.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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It's arrogant.
This is an action of a politically
connected inside lawyer who thinks that law
should be ignored, that you should be
bulldozed, that applicants should be coming in
again and again to wear down the neighbors.
It's not right and you have not been bullied
by that type of tactic in his prior
proceedings. You've demonstrated and you've
rendered fair decisions that were all bound by
now.
The issue here is repeatedly put to you,
"this is a technical variance." There's no
such term in your Code as a "technical
variance." It's a signal by the applicant
saying ignore the requirements, it's a
technical matter. No, it's an area variance.
It deals with dimensions and it deals with
location, which you've dealt with already.
The side yard has been dealt with already and
the same arguments apply.
The Code provides, in order to keep side
yards open in waterfront districts for obvious
reasons, that the accessory structure can be
placed in the front yard. There's plenty of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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room in this front yard to put another garage.
I don't think Tenedios wants to look at it.
It's ugly, who would want that on their front
lawn? So put it on the side in the face of
the neighbors. Let them look at the garage,
not me. It's not as if there is no space
conforming for a garage on this property. Of
course there is, but they've already built a
garage into the house, adjoining and that
garage could be expanded to 2000 square feet
under the house had they so chosen when they
built the house.
So they created a hardship. They said,
well, we want to have an industrial structure
to store my cars. So let's stuff it on the
side and stuff it in the face of the
neighbors. Arrogant.
What about the size of the structure?
They claim to you that it's now conforming. I
beg to differ. It's two-story. It's over
1400 square feet both floors. It's an excess
of the 750-foot restriction on this property.
So the same issues are there that you
decided months ago, the location in the side.
~knd, by the way, if you look at the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
application, which seems to show that this
garage is 20 feet from the side line, but the
sideline on that easterly side of this
property includes a 5-foot right of way. So
the measurement is to start at the easterly
edge of that right of way.
be at least 15 feet not the
by the Code. It's another
created ambiguity?
So it appears to
20 feet required
(inaudible), a
The applicant obviously wants to comeback
to you again and again and again. Well, I
don't think that strategy is a mystery. It's
part of a segmented strategy, it's part of a
strategy commonly called the salami strategy.
You keep slicing it and slicing it and slicing
it and dicing it and, you know, the neighbors
aren't going to show up one of these days, the
Board is going to get tired of it, so let's
keep slicing. I don't think that is an
appropriate way of doing business. We should
call it the (inaudible) which of course is the
sausage deception, another variation of the
same strategy.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Stankovich, I'm
going to give the applicant an opportunity to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
address some of your concerns and then I'll
give it back to you, just so that we don't get
too far here.
MR. STANKOVICH: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. I'll attempt to
address only the actual misstatements rather
than editorializing. I don't feel that's
professional.
Mr. Stankovich incorrectly points out
factually that this is a new application. The
garage dimensions are different. The prior
appeal and I pulled out the notice and the
prior Notice of Disapproval does confirm my
memory. The Board certainly has this record.
The prior application was for a garage that
was -- that would exceed the dimensional
requirements. This application conforms with
all dimensional requirements. The prior
application wanted to put the garage closer to
the right of way. Again, it is a dead end
right of way that arguably this homeowner is
the one to use. We have not yet determined
whether or not the other two property owners
are even going to use this right of way
because it is not their access from the lot to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the street.
Nonetheless, my client has left it open,
has improved it. We welcome you to come to
the property to see the improvements that have
been made; they are all first class and
certainly enhance the value of Mr.
Stankovich's property, at least my opinion and
the reasonable person's opinion, Mr.
Stankovich's opinion aside.
This is a new application, new
dimensions. As I said before, the garage is
in the side yard because it cannot meet the
55-foot front yard setback, which was our
preference from the prior application, but
we've made this application as conforming as
could be legally possible. We have -- my
client and I have looked at this with the
architect and considered all the alternative
locations and the garage placed anywhere on
this property in the front yard, which would
be the only alternative, not in the back or
the waterfront side, would violate the 55-foot
front yard setback.
If the garage were placed on the west
side of the property, the house, as you can
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
see is at 55 feet, that's how it was measured
by the Building Department. So if you just do
a radius, that is the 55-foot setback and it
extends along the west and where you see a
waterline indication that is approximately
where the 55-foot setback ends. So on the
west side it was not feasible without again
coming back to this Board for a variance.
The most logical, open area for a garage
is the east side of the property and it is
where it is proposed today. So when I say
it's a technical variance, it is in a location
that does not conform because we cannot put it
in front yard, which would be measured from
the house at it's closest point to the road,
that's where the front yard would be measured
from, or the rear yard which is the back deck
area. So that is why we are here.
It is a new application. We did review
the prior application. It is -- the Board
felt that we could come in with a more
conforming or a conforming application and
that is what we chose to do. So Mr.
Stankovich's statements, I believe, are both a
misstatement of the law as well as the facts.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I should just add
that you could, in fact, put it in the front
yard where it would be conforming, but then
you would need variance anyway. You would
need a front yard setback variance.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right now, the
variance you need is a side yard. So either
way it would need a variance one way or the
other.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, and we are at
conforming side yard. I point out that the
side yard setback was reviewed by the Building
Department. This is a pedestrian 5-foot right
of way that appears on the original
subdivision map. It is not a road or a
street, which is what a setback is measured
from. So the 20 feet is again conforming. We
have made the most conforming application that
we can and make it a practical usable
structure for my client.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question?
MRS. MOORE: Of course.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, in the
original -- the past decision, I didn't write
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that decision and I'm not speaking for the
person that did, there was an intent to try
and place this particular building on the
westerly side of the property. Okay. Is
there a location that the Tenedios family
would -- could possibly use on the west side,
bearing in mind that variances may be needed
to do so?
MRS. MOORE: That a what, a variance
would be needed?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A variance may be
needed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not may, would.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
Yeah, the only place
is very close to the property line where
opening is on the circle.
I could visualize it
the
MR. SCHWARTZ:
meters --
MRS. MOORE:
We have meter panel, gas
Water line.
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- water line all in the
area and the reason we didn't do that was
again trying to conform to the 55 feet and it
was the area that didn't have setbacks already
in order for us to put all this equipment so
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the neighbors wouldn't object.
MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Tenedios, while
you're there, when you testified that you want
to store antique vehicles in this, what are
your estimations of how often you would be
driving vehicles in and out of the garage?
MR. TENEDIOS: Depending on the weather,
hopefully very often.
MEMBER HORNING: Throughout the year,
very often?
MR. TENEDIOS: Throughout the year. My
intent is to make this a year-round residence.
MEMBER HORNING: And where do you drive
the antique vehicles? Do you leave the
property with them or you just drive them
around your driveway or what? I mean what are
you doing with them?
MRS. MOORE: You drive when it's good
weather.
MR. TENEDIOS: When it's good weather.
MEMBER HORNING:
a drive --
MR. TENEDIOS:
MEMBER HORNING:
You take the car out for
Correct.
-- on the public roads
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. TENEDIOS:
MEMBER HORNING:
frequently?
MR. TENEDIOS:
Correct.
And you would do this
Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: So the garage would be
used on a active basis, not just for the
storage, you'd be --
MR. TENEDIOS: Active basis.
MEMBER HORNING: -- actively using it.
MRS. MOORE: Which is what the driveway
is there for.
MEMBER HORNING: I was just curious, you
know, some people have an antique and they --
MRS. MOORE: And they never take it out.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Right.
MR. TENEDIOS: And I think we should also
note that we've improved the side yard -- the
right of way where the other two lots have
continuous access. I've put a gravel drive
down. We cleared the 5-foot right of way
going to the beach, even though there's no
home there now, there's nobody using it. We
cleared the path, we didn't have to, and I did
that with good intent with good measure for
Mr. Stankovich's pleasure. I think we've made
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
every attempt to make the neighbors happy and
to do whatever we can to live harmoniously
together.
MEMBER HORNING: It certainly looks quite
different than it did a year ago.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: I did notice that
you had cleared that right of way and that you
have a large stone retaining wall with
substantial plantings.
MR. TENEDIOS: Right. Somebody else
would have left it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Bramble.
MR. TENEDIOS: We planted it to keep
somebody from doing that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I do want to point
out something, however, and it is not before
us, but it is on the survey that we are
looking at, that would be the drawing we would
have to deny or approve and that is the
mention of proposed deer fencing. I noticed
that along that right of way it is already
installed. I did not -- is it installed on
the westerly side also?
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I didn't go over
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
there because I was only looking at the site
for the garage that you're proposing. We
cannot approve an 8-foot high deer fence --
MR. TENEDIOS: It's not 8-foot.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pardon me?
MR. TENEDIOS: It's at 6 feet, which I
believe is what the Town Code allows.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 6 feet is
acceptable in a side yard, but --
MR. TENEDIOS: It's at 6 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On the westerly --
MR. TENEDIOS: Ail around.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Then that
probably has to be changed on your survey.
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Because I'm not
about to suggest that this -- that we endorse,
you know, a survey that has --
MR. TENEDIOS: It's 6 feet and I welcome
you to go and measure it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah,
mean I looked on the one side.
the other. I'm being honest with you, but I
do note that you --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) the new plans,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
obviously, with just -- all the landscaping on
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Yes. That's fine,
so it'll be conforming and so is your 4-foot
pool fence.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But I did want to
point that out.
MEMBER HOP~NING: We're requesting a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we're
requesting a corrected survey.
MRS. MOORE: Our --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What about this
business of the proposed new limits of
clearing? Have you dealt with the Trustees on
that or what? Is it approved, you know --
MRS. MOORE: Is it approved limits, we're
using an older -- Mark, why don't you come up
here cause this is from the original survey
where you see the limits of clearing area?
MR. SCHWARTZ: This is --
MRS. MOORE: Existing, oh. Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: This is existing
boundaries.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, proposed limits of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
clearing.
limits of clearing on here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the clearing has been done.
MOORE: Yeah, I --
MRS.
MR.
MRS.
Okay. You have a new proposed
It looks like all
TENEDIOS: (Inaudible).
MOORE: Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I
remember that this had gotten for a larger
garage, the Trustees had approved that
application. The original application was
approved by the Trustees. I didn't go back to
redo the -- it's been extended and continued,
but I haven't gone back to modify this. We'll
have to go back to the Trustees to modify the
original application assuming the Board grants
this one. I have to show them this new
dimensional and locational plan to amend it.
It doesn't make sense to amend it until I knew
what the Board granted.
At this point, we don't have the garage.
So the Trustees will most likely look at the
area of clearing as well.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So what you're
saying is you need to go back to the Trustees
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MRS. MOORE: I have to go back and look
at the original approval the Trustees granted
because I don't recall the clearing limit. I
do recall the garage being larger in a
different location. I haven't gone back to
them on that amendment, but it should be a
straightforward amendment since we are
actually smaller and I think in the general
area, just a smaller structure.
The Trustees just want to make sure that
we have -- whatever is going to be built is in
fact the permit that they've approved. So you
have in your file the original Trustee's
permit, I believe.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Well, you
know, with a question --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- because you
have an approved area of clearance. The
proposed garage, other than one tiny little
corner, seems to be within those boundaries.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I just want to
make sure that we're clear, I don't like these
dangling questions.
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MRS. MOORE: No, that's quite all right.
That's better --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I want that
cleared up on the survey and the process as
well, but that --
MRS. MOORE: Well, any decision would be
still subject to the Trustees' approval, so
you know your own decision can certainly say
and you don't usually review clearing issues,
so you can certainly put in the decision that
it's subject to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Well, I'm aware of
that, but I just want to make sure that this
deer fencing height is changed, it's
conforming now.
MRS. MOORE: Right, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You've got proposed
along the front yard at 8 feet.
MR. TENEDIOS: It's all around at 6.
CHAIRPERSON WEIS~ULN: At 6 and, of
course, a 6-foot high fence in a front yard is
not permitted. You realize that, 4 foot.
MR. TENEDIOS: The front being?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, where the
right of way is is considered a front yard, so
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that has to be cleared up.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, we'll
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
conforming 4-foot height.
(inaudible) that.
we will change that.
Change that to a
MRS. MOORE: To a conforming, yes, and
after a while you may not even need fencing,
but I don't know (inaudible).
MR. TENEDIOS: It's not a problem to
change that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I'm just
making notes on the survey so I don't forget
any of these details.
Jerry, you wanted to ask a question?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to
reflect back on the original decision and the
reason why we did not entertain your prior
application and uniquely this application is
different, there's no question about it. It
may be in a similar yard situation, but it is
a completely different application; however,
I'm not speaking for the Board, I'm speaking
for myself, I tend to like to put things to
bed, okay, so to speak. Is there a plan that
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
you could come up with on the west side to
place a building if the Board was not so
inclined, and I'm not speaking for the Board,
I'm speaking for myself, to place this
building in the location that you presently
have, something that --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, as we stated before,
it's a hardship for my client in that all of
the utility, which are very sensitive to
relocate, keeping in mind that Mr.
Stankovich's objections are mostly visual
because we could have easily put the house
over in front of, which would have been a much
larger structure, over towards the east and
just flipped everything over. So that's why
view easements -- and Mr. Stankovich could
have purchased a view easement if he had
wanted to keep that area clear.
It's, you know, we've presented what we
think is a reasonable request given that it is
again it's a placement of the structure in the
side yard, but conforming in all other
respects. If you're allowed to have a house
put in that area, certainly a smaller garage
is not an unreasonable request given the fact
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that the Town Board had, you know, the Code
allows you to put a garage in a front yard for
a waterfront house. We are moving it away
from the front yard so that we're keeping it
away from the property line, as Mr. Stankovich
had previously requested. So we've tried to
accommodate him, but putting it on the west
side just is not feasible given the -- all of
the utilities. Those are significant
utilities.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How would you feel
about -- I mean the property is so beautifully
developed and there are very large imposing
structures on it, I know it doesn't go over
lot coverage, but they're very, very large
imposing buildings and there are a couple of
them now. How would you feel about a
reduction of the visual mass of the garage in
its proposed location by the removal of that
8-foot high cupola? I know it's an aesthetic
inaudible).
MR. TENEDIOS: If that will help put this
issue to bed, as you stated, yes, I will do
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
just reduce the visual impact.
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes, if it puts the issue
to bed I'd be willing to remove the cupola
completely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I just
thought I would put that on the record and
find out.
MRS.
can make
MOORE: I'm glad he's here cause he
that decision.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the building
could be moved closer to the pool house, too.
It could be moved at least another 5 feet
closer to the pool house if --
MR. TENEDIOS: If that's what needs to be
done, again, I'm --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Why would you want
to do that?
MR. TENEDIOS: It's conforming right now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is a
conforming side yard, both of them.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean that is a
conforming side yard.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You know, I
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understand. What I'm trying to do is cover
any variables that may come up in the
deliberation process and I realize that's like
rolling dice in a wheelbarrow, okay, but I --
not that I've ever done that, but --
MRS. MOORE: On this side of the table,
too, so please ask the questions that you --
MEMBER HORNING: I'll ask a question
about the idea of attaching the garage to the
west side of the house in the vicinity of
where ou have it labeled "proposed driveway,"
on the west corner right adjacent to the
existing garage.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that's where the
driveway is now?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, well it says
proposed on the survey.
MRS. MOORE: Well, no, it's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's there.
MRS. MOORE: -- built.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, so what's the
possibility of putting the garage there?
MRS. MOORE: Well, the existing garage --
MEMBER HORNING: Attaching it to the
house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MRS. MOORE: -- is there, but you have
the existing garage doors already facing that
direction.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MRS. MOORE: You're the design
professional --
MEMBER HORNING:
out.
the
I'm just throwing that
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I think the design of
(inaudible), but you're the architect.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the interest of
time, you know, and not getting too far, I
just want to ask if the Board had any other
questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm reading the
other decision that we made in March and,
quick honestly, I don't see where this
application is any different.
MRS. MOORE: Any different?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean other than a few
dimensions, I mean it's still a place in the
side yard and you know it still has -- I'm
reading all of the reasons why we didn't grant
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that building before, all those reasons still
exist. You know, aesthetically too large --
MRS. MOORE: Well, aesthetically it was
too large cause it didn't conform to zoning.
So now this structure conforms to zoning.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Other than the fact --
MRS. MOORE: So presumably we meet all
the dimensions --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I don't know how
you could state conforms to zoning and be
before us.
MRS. MOORE: It conforms to the
dimensional requirements of an accessory
structure. Before the prior application was a
three-car garage with two stories and cupola
and the rest with pergolas, that was the
original application. We actually eliminated
pergolas to try and reduce the mass, but the
garage was still the same garage. The Board
said no that was too much and it was denied
for that reason. We've now made a conforming
structure so when the Code says, you know,
that somebody that owns over an acre is
allowed to have a garage of certain size,
that's conforming. That's not here before you
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
as a variance.
The only variance is the placement in the
side yard. Remember our previous variance was
a front yard variance to put it closer to the
right of way. We offered in discussions we
can push it back. In fact, we actually pushed
the pool house back a little bit, but this is,
yeah, okay it's the same property and we're in
the same general vicinity, but it's a
completely different application.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
seeing it, honestly.
front yard variance,
in the side yard. I
understand that, but
difference, you know,
Okay, I'm really not
I mean you know I see
side yard variance, it's
see all of that, I
I honestly don't see much
in the actual
application. You still want a building that's
going to be in the same general vicinity. Now
there are places where you can put this garage
and not need a variance.
MRS. MOORE: Please tell
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. MOORE: I
where.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
me.
Okay --
challenge you to tell me
-- you can attach it
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
right to the garage. You can attach it to the
garage right now.
MRS. MOORE: Now --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You'll have to add two
more doors, I know you'll have to do some work
there just like everybody else does.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I would say we've
looked at that. Originally when we looked at
it before the house was constructed, we had --
the original plan was to move the house closer
to the right of way, but that would have
required a variance. So we actually tried to
push --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You got 80 feet here.
You got 80 feet front yard.
MRS. MOORE: 55.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No --
MRS. MOORE: The Building Department told
us we are measuring the 55 feet from the edge
of the right of way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but what about to
you?
MRS. MOORE: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's 80 feet to the
property line, but 55 to the right of way.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: The right of way goes
all the way across the property line?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it does.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not here on the
map.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it is, see where it
ends, but you have to take an arc the way the
Building Department interprets the front yard
setback. If you take -- let me do it this
way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're going to have to
explain it to me cause I don't see that.
MRS. MOORE: I'm going to do it
(inaudible). [Away from microphone.]
MEMBER DINIZIO: I wasn't here for the
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Oh okay. See this is the
right of way right here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. MOORE: The Building Department says
we have to be 55 feet from all points of this
right of way; that was our problem. So that's
why we couldn't, right from the beginning --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're going to
need a variance no matter where they put it.
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MRS. MOORE: That's --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: If they put
anything anywhere --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, anywhere on this --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- they will need a
variance. The variance they have chosen is
side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's the least
intrusive affect on adjacent property.
MRS. MOORE: The minimal practical
application, minimal variance practical.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I understand --
MRS. MOORE: Now you understand?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, are there any
other comments from the audience?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Leslie, may I ask a
question for clarity of the record?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Certainly.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What's the square
footage of the proposed garage?
MRS. MOORE: 27 by 27.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
27 by 27.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that
MRS. MOORE: Less than 750.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay, cause he said
it was 14. I just wanted to --
MR. STANKOVICH: That's including
upstairs.
MRS. MOORE: No, he said --
MR. STANKOVICH: 729 per floor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: And the second floor is
storage, unused space. Okay.
MR. STANKOVICH: I beg your pardon? It's
usable space.
MRS. MOORE: But it's no habitable.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not calculated
-- it's not calculated, it is a permitted
height and it's not part of our Notice of
Disapproval.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir?
MR. STANKOVICH: I think your questioning
was persuasive because we have now found that
they've gone and cleared illegally with regard
to the Trustees' prior decision. In addition,
they again have violated the covenants and
restrictions. They've made no attempt to go
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
to the neighbors to explain what goes on with
regard to the covenants filed on this property
and in that regard I would request that you
grant administrative judicial notice of the
entire file in the previous proceeding to make
it part of this proceeding and, in particular,
the subdivision map in the covenants and
restrictions. Is there any objection to that?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I don't believe we're
bound by covenants and restrictions.
MR. STANKOVICH: No, but they reflect
upon the attitude and attempts of this
applicant to continually go beyond the
restrictions of the law, whether they are
continually going to the Building Inspector to
place buildings where not permitted and that
has come before you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have to reserve
decision on that, we -- counsel has to discuss
that with us.
MRS. MOORE: And it's my opinion
obviously that the covenants and restrictions,
certainly you've stated, it doesn't apply to
the Zoning Board, but if those -- we are no in
violation of the covenants that are on this
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
property. So --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think we should
reduce this to writing so that we can
understand it in both situations; that's just
my opinion. I'm only one person.
MR. STANKOVICH: I would like two weeks
after the close to submit a brief.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do you have any
objection to that, counsel?
MEMBER DINIZIO: We have the covenants --
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have them in
previous -- We have them. I believe we have
ample testimony at the public hearing, we will
have the transcript, all the facts will be
before us --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- everyone has
stated their opinion clearly, and I don't
think we need to require anything else.
MR. STANKOVICH: Except I must note that
the hardships feigned by the applicant are
self-created. They've brought this project in
a segmented fashion and now, using the salami
strategy, they want to take one piece out of
the last decision and plead their case before
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
you and ask you to weigh on both sides and
gain traction to further expand their
encroachment. This is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think your point
is very clear, Mr. Stankovich.
I'm going to ask if there are any other
comments anyone else would like to make, any
questions of the Board?
Hearing no further comments, I'd like to
make a motion to close the hearing, reserve
decision.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6403 Judith B. Ullman
and Judith A. Moch
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's March 2,
2010, updated May 25, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed foundation
reconstruction and alteration to year round
dwelling at: 1) less than the code required
front yard setback of 50 feet; 2) less than
the code required side yard setback of 15
feet; 3) conversion of front porch to
habitable space which pursuant to ~Walz"
constitutes an increase in nonconformance.
Property located at: 7617 Soundview Ave.,
(adj. to Great Pond aka Leeton's Lake)
Southold SCTM#1000-59-6-9&14."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. State
your name for the record, please.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, Catherine Mesiano on
behalf of the applicants.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Cathy.
Would you like to proceed?
MS. MESIANO: Yes, the purpose -- I'll
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
back up.
BOARD SECRETARY: Cathy, could you take
that mike and place it around the corner to
you? I'm having difficulty hearing you.
Thank you.
MS. MESIANO: The
the property October 9,
applicants purchased
2009 and a condition
of their mortgage was to have heat installed
and convert the house to a year round
residence by October 2010. Being in a flood
zone, the FEMA requirements come into play.
FEMA states that any improvement to the
structure greater than 50 percent of the cost
of the structure requires that the structure
be conforming in all ways FEMA requires.
We are in an AE elevation 9. The first
floor elevation is 10.34 feet, so we are
approximately 9 inches shy of FEMA conformity.
It was determined that the proposed
improvements to the structure would constitute
greater than 50 percent in putting in a
heating system and putting in windows that
would comply with current requirements. So
therefore, we're back to dealing with the
foundation.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Now this is not the first time I've come
before this Board on an application that is
driven by these same motivations. So in a
nutshell for the want of
height of the foundation,
the structure as in lift
the 9 inches in the
we now need to raise
up not raze demolish,
put in a new conforming foundation and then
set the structure back on the new foundation.
The new foundation will be in the same
footprint as the original house. The house is
not going to be enlarged. Unfortunately,
again, I've dealt with several of these
issues. By the time the structure is brought
into conformity with FEMA, the budget for the
improvements of the dwelling are used up and
what the new buyers or new owners had hoped to
achieve with the structure now is out of reach
because of the cost factor.
So we are here basically because we need
to lift the house up 9 inches to enable us to
convert this to a structure with heat in it.
We're not proposing any additional rooms, any
additions. It's strictly lift it up from the
foundation and put it back down and then
winterize the house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
I'd rather deal with the Board's
questions than to go on.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA~: Yes, sure. Well
they're converting a screen porch to habitable
space --
MS. MESIANO: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- which invokes
Walz. It's a front yard setback of 42 feet
where the Code requires 50.
MS. MESIANO: Right --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Side yard is being
maintained at 13.3.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Front yard at 29.9,
correct?
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, we just got a
letter from the applicant indicating what
you've basically described and it's primarily
putting the new foundation on. It's not going
to be a teardown, there's not going to be
reconstruction.
MS. MESIANO: No. No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
This building is
stable enough to raise it off the foundation?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MS. MESIANO: We've -- it's been
inspected by the architect and they have had
contractors in to make these determinations.
The first thing they did, of course, was dig
around the foundation to see if the foundation
that was there could be modified as we've done
in other situations, but they found that there
are no footings to the foundation. So
therefore, the foundation is not adequate. So
that has to be ripped out and a new foundation
installed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And what kind of
foundation is being proposed? We don't have
any --
MS. MESIANO: Poured concrete. There's
no plans because at this point everything is
conceptual and frankly they don't have enough
money in their budget to draw preliminary and
then less preliminary and so we're dealing
with the conceptual aspect because we don't
propose any changes other than to the use of
the existing front porch area so the footprint
of the house will remain the same.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Are we going to get
a foundation plan, though?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MS. MESIANO: Are you?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. I mean we don't
know how deep the foundation is, we don't
know, you know, we know the size of it
conceivably by the outside footprint of the
property, but --
MS. MESIkNO: Right, is that relevant
though because this Board doesn't deal with
Building Codes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's not the point.
The point is is it a full 8-foot foundation --
MS. MESIANO: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- is it a 7-foot
foundation, is it a crawlspace foundation;
what kind of foundation is it?
MS. MESIAI~O: The flood elevation is
elevation 9, therefore, the floor of the
foundation can be no more than at elevation 8
and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: First floor?
MS. MESIANO: No, the first floor
elevation will --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not a slab,
it'll be a crawlspace (inaudible) --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, will be at 11.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it'll be a
crawlspace, it has to by --
MS. MESIANO: It'll be a 3-foot crawl
because we presently have 10.34, for the want
of that 9 inches we have to go through this
entire exercise, and then we will have a
foundation with a slab that's 3 feet deep and
it will have the flow-through openings as is
required by FEMA.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You mean the
breakaway?
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: with no utilities or
anything in there.
MS. MESIANO: No. According to FEMA they
cannot be there.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But uniquely, since
you don't have a footing, the foundation has
to be rebuilt anyway regardless of the height
condition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, right.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, so I mean
that's --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It has to be
reconstructed.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And it will be done
in, as you had said, and I'm not being
redundant, I want to just very simply say
this, you will be lifting the house, not
physically taking the house off the
foundation? I mean only by the mere fact of
lifting you will not be --
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- removing it and
skirting it over to another to another
location?
MS. MESIANO: To my knowledge, it's not
to be moved, again, that's excess expense.
They'll be lifting the house up, constructing
the foundation under it,
back down.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
putting the house
Okay.
MS. MESIANO: We don't need a temporary
site on which to store the house.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The reason I ask that
question, Cathy, is because we've had
applications where people wanted to increase
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the size of the house.
house off its location,
reason why we ask that
Physically take the
okay, and that's the
question.
MS. MESIANO: Oh sure. No, I'm open to
any questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: I'm sure by the look on my
face, you'll tell if I don't like them, but
I'll always give you an answer.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's fine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions. I mean we
got 15 feet and it's going to stay 15 feet,
right?
MS. MESIANO: It is what it is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and you got --
MS. MESI~O: We have the CO.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- 29.9 and you're going
to have that and the side yard is going to be
13.3 when you're done?
MS. MESIANO: It is what it is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And there's no second
story?
MS. MESIANO: No, but I would like to
say, if in the future they wanted to come back
to this Board for a second story, I would not
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
want to foreclose that, but at this point in
time there's on discussion of it. The whole
budget is going into the foundation.
CFL~IRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Ken,
question?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Side yards, a
conforming side yard is 15 feet?
MS. MESIAI~O: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I guess it would be
too much of a difficulty to ask them to make a
conforming side yard since they're making a
new foundation and move the house over to --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would be more
excavation, that would be more disturbance.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, right.
MS. MESIAi~O: And it would decrease our
wetlands setback, which is driving all of
this.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good point. No
further questions.
MEMBER HORNING: No. I might point out
that according to the Notice of Disapproval
and the legal notice that if you were going to
consider putting a second story on at some
time in the future, you might very well be
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
cited again for this Walz
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
be.
reference.
Yeah, they would
MS. MESIANO: Yes, I understand.
MEMBER HORNING: It's nonconforming --
MS. MESIANO: Yes, that's why I said I
wouldn't want to preclude the option of coming
back because, at this point, we need to
winterize the house and because of the age of
the structure and the fact that it was
constructed as a summer cottage, much more
than a coat of paint would constitute more
than 50 percent of the cost of the structure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I can only assume that
they (inaudible) deny it for Walz for those
two setbacks because you're demolishing the
foundation.
MS. MESIANO: I'm sorry, the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I can only assume that
they didn't mention Walz for the other -- they
only mentioned Walz for the front porch
because the foundation is going to be
demolished so it's beyond Walz. Those
setbacks are beyond Walz, so they're going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
be back.
MS. MESIANO: Walz was mentioned because
of the conversion of the porch --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. MESIANO: -- into living space.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, is there
anyone else in the audience who would like to
speak to this application?
MR. McCARTHY: Good morning. Tom
McCarthy, McCarthy Real Estate Southold. I'm
not here for the application, but I'm familiar
with it and its difficulties. We have
previously marked the property for sale prior
to the two individuals that own it today and I
have been familiar with several other
situations like this and I think that the
hardship comes because the prior applicants
and this applicant really complied with the
law and the Certificate of Occupancy that they
had was seasonal because they did not have
heat in it prior to a Building Department
inspection and there's many other little
cottages around town that don't play by the
rules. They would actually add heat and then
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
have the Building Inspector come in and do an
inspection of the property and say, okay, it
has heat and you can have a regular CO, but
the previous owners did not install heat to
this residence as what the mortgage might have
required and they played by the rules and
unfortunately they're being hurt by it, but I
understand it's a very unique situation. I'm
very familiar with the house, you know, its
location and its setbacks and, you know, I can
certainly agree that it is a difficulty and to
Cathy's point I'm in favor of the Board
granting it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Tom.
Thank you for your testimony.
Amyone else?
Okay, there are no further comments. I'd
like to make a motion to close the hearing,
reserve decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6319 & 6336 - William A. Penney
III (Tidy Car) (adjourned from PH 12/3/09)
[There was a recess previous to this
hearing and it appears the appearances were
not on the record.]
MEMBER HORNING: Is that the only change?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So this is the site
plan that is currently before the Planning
Board for approval?
MR. McCARTHY: Actually, I stand
corrected. (Inaudible) there were a few other
minor changes and it has been modified and I
believe it's to deal with the site triangle
and the turning lane at the intersection of
Youngs Avenue and Route 48 because of the Code
and what's necessary for the sight distance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you bring up a
-- do you have a copy with you?
MR. McCARTHY: I do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let us
at it and then what I'm going
is just submit an updated one
for us.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay,
that on this one either.
have a look
to ask you to do
to the office
well I don't have
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
copy of it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah,
to need that and it's just a --
They'll give us a
we're going
this is the
variance in the side yard and then this is
another condition --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We really haven't
taken any testimony on the special exception
anyway, have we?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
We were really waiting to
No, not really.
see what the
Planning Board was going to do with the site
and, actually, we did, I mean, we did take one
-- we did, I recall talk a bit about, when
Bill was here, the fact that there was some
possibility of moving a good deal of the
inventory up to -- was it Vermont or New
Hampshire, I don't know which.
MR. McCARTHY: Vermont.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's -- is there
an update on that or is he planning to operate
this as a full time business here?
MR. McCARTHY: Well, he's planning,
because of the economic benefits to both
himself and to his customers, of moving a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
great deal of the business and inventory up to
the north and I believe he's under
construction on another facility up there now.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So what's going to
happen to this facility?
MR. McCARTHY: At this point, he's
looking to comply with what's been requested
of him, which is to come into compliance with
Town Code. So, as we know, Bill's been there
for many years and he's been in front of
various different boards to try to -- and the
Building Department has been trying to
regulate his use because he has been -- he's
overgrown his site. He's been a very
successful guy, so it's been bursting at the
seams and I think we're trying to reduce the
inventory and come into compliance to the
greatest extent possible with the Code.
So he's still going to operate at this
location. He's not going to close it up, but
it's going to be somewhat of a scaled back
operation from what we're seen previously.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So what kind of
display is going to exist in this area
eventually, which is part of the special
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
exception? Do we know?
MR. McCARTHY: I believe that he's
looking to that area for some of his mobile
goods, some of the slide-ons. He also does
chairs. Bill's a guy who sells things that
are all in and around the recreational
industry. So it may be building tubes, it
could be chairs, it could be slide-on campers;
anything in that area.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So in other words,
what you're saying is when he's put stuff
there they have complained about it and that
is the reason why he wants to bring it into
compliance?
MR. McCARTHY: That's correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I mean, we usually
see a new vehicle from Lucas Ford with a
slide-on camper on it and this type of
information.
MR. McCARTHY: That's correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is not any type
of new automobile industry that he's getting a
franchise on or anything of that nature?
MR. McCARTHY: Nope. Basically a
validation of his existing uses and the site
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
plan as well creates a little bit better flow
from what we had in the past.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I appreciate
this being before the Board, because, in fact,
what we're really looking at is a permitted
use; however, it's been operating without
permission --
MR. McCARTHY: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- for a very long
time and the business has spilled all over the
site and there have been a number of
violations as a consequence against the way in
which the inventory has just been spread all
over the place and with site plan approval in
place right now the CO is for car service/gas
station; that's it --
MR. McCARTHY: And garden center, I
believe.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: My information only
says car service/gas station. Maybe I have --
don't have a complete permit --
MR. McCARTHY: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, I want to
make sure that what will happen on this site
is what is being proposed, which is to also
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
operate it for motor vehicle sales.
MR. McCARTHY: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Otherwise, it's
going to become -- if he starts throwing all
these other things out there, he's operating a
retail business of a very different nature.
If he's selling, you know, lawnmowers and he's
selling chairs and he's selling inner tubes
and he's --
MR. McCARTHY: He is selling accessories
to the recreational vehicles and that portion
of the industry. I think that he's selling
there has scaled back over time where his
focus is mainly the vehicles themselves and I
think the accessories have really scaled back.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Can they be
accommodated within the building? within the
existing building, do they have to be
displayed all over the place or can they just
be part of an accessory -- like a store? You
know, you go inside and you look at what's
what? I'm trying to look at visually what the
result is going to be on the site.
MR. McCARTHY: I understand.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, together with
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that statement, excuse me, is he should give
us a laundry list of what he intends to
display and we should be able to tell him,
through his special exception purposes, if
they conform or don't conform to the special
exception.
MR. McCARTHY: I can request that of him.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right? I mean this
way we now what's going to be -- I can go back
30 years and tell you that this was a gas
station. It was a wonderful gas station, it
was probably one of the greatest country gas
stations that existed on this road and of
course you're absolutely correct; what it is
today is certainly not a gas station.
MR. McCARTHY: It had been a gas station,
a garden center. One parcel was -- it was a
two-lot subdivision, this is one of the
resultant parcels. The parcel which is
adjacent to the west has been preserved by Mr.
Hubbard, okay, so I think that's an important
piece to consider is the impact to any of the
neighbors of this particular use cause there
won't be any building as per I believe private
and public covenants on the adjacent 3-acre
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
parcel to the west between O'Malley's and this
use will not be built upon.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But the building that
was granted by the Board on the west side is
still a part of this property not necessarily
this particular site plan.
MR. McCARTHY: That's not within his
scope right now. He doesn't have any
intentions, he was looking to solve the issues
on site with the space needs and he's moved
that issue up to New Hampshire.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I see.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I reviewed the previous
decision #4826 of January 18, 2001 involving
conditions and what we approved then was
subject to the Planning Board's site plan
approval and a landscape plan and from my
understanding there doesn't seem to be any
landscape plan that was put into effect based
upon this last decision; is that true or not
true?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is true, that
is why there were some violations because
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
there was an approved site plan not a special
exception for the use, but there was an
approved site plan and the conditions of that
site plan have not been met. There is no
landscape buffer --
MEMBER HORNING: No, right. Can you
address that issue?
MR. McCARTHY: The Planning Board has
revisited that and we have already submitted
to them landscaping that meets, from my
understanding that meets their satisfaction.
We've got arborvitaes and buttercup shrubs,
junipers, old gold, rhododendrons, hydrangeas,
etc. on the --
MEMBER HORNING: My question then why
would it be, here it is 9 years later, let's
say, and the landscape plan was not
implemented that we approved to be implemented
in this decision? 9 years later is a long
time to not do anything.
MR. McCARTHY: I understand your question
not only was the landscape plan not
implemented, neither was the variance for the
building and the building wasn't constructed
either.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's the huge
building on the west side --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: The shed you're
talking about --
MEMBER HOP~NING: Right.
MR. McCARTHY: On that, it was a separate
building that was -- we had several issues at
the time I believe it was with the building
facing the street, we're on a corner property.
(Inaudible) that structure to the west in
where we're presently just asking for sales
and service yard and there was a detached
large building at that time and, George, I
believe, to your point that the landscaping
was not done at that time because that work
that was granted by your Board was not
started.
MEMBER HORNING: And we're going to get
an updated survey, correct?
MR. McCARTHY: Yeah, I'd be happy to
submit that to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~uN: And also whatever
information is before the Planning Board. If
you have a landscape plan, you know, whatever
information they have would be appropriate for
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
us to have --
MR. McCARTHY:
for you. Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
we're on the same page.
I'd be happy to get that
-- in our file so
MEMBER HORNING: A couple of other
questions or comments. There's a second
condition on our prior decision says
something, "No outdoor storage of vehicles for
display, storage or sale." Now, there seems
to be a number of vehicles. I mean, if
they're not -- they may not have a for sale
sign on them, but they're certainly on display
in the front area on Route -- and I presume
they're for sale, too, but I don't know that
for a fact because they don't have a for sale
sign on them, but they're either there for
display or for storage in violation of this
condition. How do you address that issue?
MR. McCARTHY: Most of the vehicles that
you see on the front there are for service.
The bay doors face the corner of Route 48 and
Youngs Avenue. So the things that come in and
out of that very similar to willow Hill
Automotive, if we were to make the same
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
argument across the street. They've got a
parking lot, those vehicles are for the
customers whose vehicles are coming in and out
of the building, that are being serviced.
There may be inventory that gets delivered to
Mr. Penny's location where he had to prepare
it for sale, add different accessories that
may not come from the factory that he adds to
these vehicles and he moves them around the
lot.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I comment on that
too? You know, in 2001 we had made a decision
and they didn't follow through on any of it.
They didn't do the variance, so the storage
that you see now is all going to be moved
inside this building. I mean we had turn
radii and buildings, we just had a bunch of
stuff and you know all of this -- anything
here is going to be servicing what's going to
be -- I think you have to store everything in
there and just pull one vehicle out, do what
you have to do, pull it back in and I think,
you know, the other side of the story is,
look, we didn't do the variance, okay. We
didn't do any of it so, you know, like the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
landscaping and all of that, it's just they
didn't follow through on the variance, but
that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know,
they ignored it, they just didn't do what they
had asked to do.
MR. McCARTHY: George, to your point, the
gentleman's in business and his is located on
business property. He does not want to be
hidden and I think part of the inventory that
he has is his calling card similar to Mr.
Lucas on Horton's Lane or Mr. Mullen on Route
25. When people drive by, yes, they're going
to drive by and they're going to see that he
does have inventory that's coming and going
and it's serviced and that's how he makes his
living and he's not looking to be hidden and,
if he was, perhaps he'd be in another location
and not on Route 48.
So I think that his inventory as it comes
and goes contributes to the success of his
business, but I understand that you don't want
it, you know, spread everywhere hither and yon
and I think our site plan is an attempt to
say, okay, if we are going to display let's
designate the area where it is and lets all
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
agree on how we can move forward.
MEMBER HORNING: I was just trying to get
at the root of what happened to the previous
decision and what remains of it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, I just believe
that -- exactly what Jimmy said, we took
significant testimony from them, there was
significant agreement in reference to that,
which is embodied within that particular
document, and that is the reason why I asked
that question of Mr. McCarthy because he has
basically scrapped that entire idea; am I
correct?
MR. McCARTHY: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. With regard to
the shed and -- if I may ask about the shed,
why could not that be attached to the main
building and/or why wasn't it attached to
begin with and, therefore, alleviating this
problem of having a shed?
MR. McCARTHY: It certainly would
alleviate it, if it was connected in some
fashion. We'd have to be at the Building
Department, a building permit, and create some
sort of a code compliant attachment. I guess
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
we'd have to go for site plan on that as well
if there was an attachment in that --
something with that. We have the location of
the building, which we feel is the least
obtrusive, and if it was attached it would
comply with the setbacks, you know, for a
principal structure, but we have a real
hardship because the accessory structure
setbacks do not comply because that's in a
non-compliant location for the yard.
So it's something that is not of the same
durability and quality, it's more of a
portable structure that's sitting on a slab
and it's not really -- it doesn't have a
foundation so to speak and it's not of the
same like, kind and quality to attach it to
the principal building and what the building
code may require of him to do that.
MEMBER HORNING: So that doesn't involve
any issues involving the allowable road
frontage of a building, would it?
MR. McCARTHY: Not that I'm aware of.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Just curious why it was
not attached to begin with and --
MR. McCARTHY: It's not really a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
principal use within the building, it's for
accessory storage, and it's --
MEMBER HORNING: It could nevertheless.
MR. McCARTHY: At some point that
building may disappear because I believe its
usable life is a lot less than what the
principal structure's usable life is.
MEMBER HORNING: Amd was it constructed
without a permit?
MR. McCARTHY: My understanding is that
it was. It's something that was purchased and
delivered on site from, I believe, a shed
company up on Route 48 much as, you know, some
other folks may have in their backyards, this
is a similar type of construction. It was
purchased and delivered.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, there's a
long history here of a variety of things going
on on this site that would be very timely to
have improved and legalized and I'm glad to
see that approaching. I'm assuming that there
will be on the site plan as finalized,
approval as finalized, a display area and all
of the vehicles that are taking up stripped
parking spaces they're all -- there's a number
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
of them, when I was there yesterday or the day
before, sitting in the parking lot, okay, and
there's no place to legally park your car. I
mean you just put it wherever you can put it
because that stuff is everywhere. It's in the
side yard, it's in front of the cyclone fence,
where the landscaping was supposed to be. As
you know, it's everywhere. The stuff is
everywhere.
There are some really rusty old junk cars
and a lot of other junk on the property and is
it fair to say that when site plan is
finalized and, you know, approved and should
this permit be granted, special exception
permit be granted to legalize the use that Mr.
Penny will be complying with getting it --
cleaning up that site and locating his
inventory where it's supposed to go in the
(inaudible)--
MR. McCARTHY: That's my understanding.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- with some stuff
on display and in the allowable display, but
that parking will be available for customers
and that when he's working on vehicles they'll
either be back in that rear yard by the shed
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
or something or brought in when he needs to
and put back into whatever --
MR. McCARTHY: That's what I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- storage area as
appropriate?
MR. McCARTHY: That's my understanding.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is it his
understanding?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Will you relay that
understanding to him?
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: I know Bill.
Believe me, I know him, that's where I bought
my first radar.
MR. McCARTHY: I believe that that's his
intention and that's why we're here is to try
to come into compliance and I think he's
already made some strides in removing some of
the things that he's accumulated over time.
Reducing his inventory and I'd like to point
out to your point that, if you look at the
site plan that's in front of you, directly in
the front of the building the garage bay door
shows a dimension of 41 feet 10 inches, if you
will, facing the apex of 48 and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, yeah?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. McCARTHY: -- parking spaces 8, 9,
10, 11, 12, and 13 are not presently in that
location. Okay, the rear (inaudible) stop, if
you will, is at the 41-foot mark so what we're
doing is we're trying to provide better
transverse access across the site because
right now it is very tight in front of the
building so we're going to move those parking
spots, together with the Planning Board's
approval, further towards the intersection of
Route 48 so there is more room for him to
transition his product in and out and for
people to park.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so we're just
-- what we need is the final site plan --
MR. McCARTHY: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: -- so whatever we
decide to do we're looking at drawings that
are the right ones.
MR. McCARTHY: I apologize that you don't
have the most up to date.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: Okay. Does anyone
else have any questions?
Is there anyone else in the audience
would like to speak to this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Anything else you'd like to say, Tom?
MR. McCARTHY: Thank you for having us.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no further
comments, I'll make a motion to close the
hearing, reserve decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean this is, of
course, closed reserving decision pending
receipt of updated survey and --
MR. McCARTHY: I would provide
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, you're going
to have the things that we requested. You're
going to submit to us an updated survey a list
of the items to be sold on the subject
premises. We're waiting for Planning Board
comments and you're also going to provide us
with anything else you've submitted other than
the survey to the Planning Board, which is
landscape scheme and so on. All right?
MR. McCARTHY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So those were all
the things. The clock will in terms of making
a decision is going to start when all of
that's received. Can you have that to us
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within the next week or two?
MR. McCARTHY: Within the week.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. Okay, and we
can probably schedule it for the special
exception meeting that's (inaudible).
All right. Okay, that was a corrected
motion.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6412 - Thomas M and
Maureen F. Dowling
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's May 26,
2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed
additions/alterations to a single-family
dwelling at: 1) less than the code required
side yard setback of 15 feet, 2) less than the
code required total side yard combined of 35
feet. Property located at: 1200 Broadwaters
Rd., (adj. to Broadwaters Cove) Cutchogue,
SCTM#1000-104-9-3."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: State your name for
the record, please, Mark.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let's see.
Do you want to start with the presentation or
do you want to have some questions from us?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Briefly, as we developed
this design we knew there was a concern, an
issue with the side yard. The setbacks,
existing setback on the west side is 3.3 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
So as we (inaudible) the additions and
alternations, what I thought was a proper way
to do it and I thought possibly we wouldn't be
at the Zoning Board is that if you take the
setbacks at the southern part of the building
with 3.3 we did add to the garage, but the
opposite setback is 32.5, so we have a total
of 35.8, which is greater than the 35
required.
It's the same in the middle and it's the
same on the northern end if you add the
setbacks that we've created with the new
additions. So it's only the total side yard
if you take the smallest on the west and the
smallest on the east, but as you kind of
progress out towards the waterside of the
house as you add them (inaudible) the
additions that we're proposing are within
requirements for both a minimum side yard and
total side yard.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ken, did you want
to start with some questions or did you want
me to?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You can start.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Just a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
couple of questions here. This is, obviously,
a very unusually shaped lot and kind of, you
know, very wedge-shaped with the point narrow
to the street and widens a great deal toward
Broadwaters Cove. You also have a very
unusual situation with wetlands, which seems
as though the marshes have migrated seaward of
the bulkhead. So that's a rather unusual
situation.
We -- the LWRP letter indicated a non-
disturbance buffer, but frankly I think we
need to have Mark go out there and do a site
inspection because I don't know what he's
determining is non-disturbance and where a
landscape buffer should be or so on and so
forth and I think since he's the expert, we
are not, I would certainly like to have him gO
and inspect the site to see how best that can
be handled.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I agree. I was
talking to Mark earlier in the week and tried
to get him out there, but he just didn't have
a chance to get out there and take a look.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so we can
look into that further to figure all that out.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
I was out there the other day, is that
all grass now? It slopes considerably toward
that bulkhead, doesn't it, the property?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, it's kind of
manicured grass towards the north right up to
the edge of the wetlands and then beyond that
is kind of a maintained area that looks more
like natural grass. It's not fertilized or
watered, so it kind of turns the grass
(inaudible) beyond the landward face of the
wetlands.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And does the
applicant go through that to get to the
bulkhead to access the water in any way?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's all wide open, it's -
- it looks kinda like wetland area, but it's
sandy and (inaudible) and up towards the
bulkhead it's definitely more like a beach
area. I think they did the bulkhead probably
35 years ago or 40 years ago. They probably
excavated and graded that upland area around
the bulkhead that long ago. So it's been used
that way for many years.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the -- what is
the size of the proposed seaward deck with the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
hot tub? I don't think I noticed, it's down
there, but it's very tiny.
MR. SCHWARTZ: It is 644 square feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What would be the
length and width? I can't read it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's about --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Huh?
MR. SCHWARTZ: About 20 feet north to
south.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 20 feet?
MR. SCHWARTZ: 20 feet, yup, and I'd say
about 30 feet east to west, 25-30 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and I see that
the setback to the wetlands is 89.9 on one
side and 100 on the other. Anyway you can
work that out so that it's 100 feet from both
of those areas?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a very, very
large deck.
MR. SCHWARTZ: We can certainly look at
the size of the deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a really huge
deck.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, we can certainly
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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line, but I don't see it
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well,
do that. I think when I
anywhere on your --
we're not going to
sent out the notices
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reduce the size of the deck. Is that a Zoning
Board issue? I thought we were here for the
side yards.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's not on
the Notice of Disapproval as a setback issue,
you're right about that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: We have a Trustees'
meeting next month so I'm sure it'll be
addressed then.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine then
and environmental impacts are part of our
(inaudible) so we have the jurisdiction to
discuss it, you know. There's a letter from
a neighbor indicating they don't object to the
3.3 foot where the accessory garage is located
now as long as that doesn't get any higher.
It looks as though you're proposing to
maintain that as a one-story --
MR. SCHWARTZ: We'll maintain that, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that height is
maintained. They mentioned something about an
outdoor shower 6 feet from their property
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
for the site plan, we were thinking about
putting the shower on that side, but that's
why you saw that, we will not do that.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that isn't --
cause I didn't find it anywhere on here and
I'm thinking, all right, I'm missing
something.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That was an error on my
part.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. That's it
for me for the moment.
Let me just mention a little bit about
the structure of the existing house. The
basement foundation, what are you doing with
that foundation? I see you have a foundation
plan some is going to be staying and some is
being added. Can you talk to us a little bit
about how much of the existing house you're
able to keep, how much has to be renovated,
how much is being removed?
MR. SCHWARTZ: The existing foundation
for the house and the garage will remain.
We're kind of connecting the two with a new
foundation. The garage structure for the most
part will stay intact. The main house will --
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the first floor structure will stay. The
exterior walls most likely will remain and, in
fact, they have to remain on the west side
because they're too close. We're adding our
second story addition 15 feet in on that west
side, so as not to have another variance issue
to deal with and then the roof and the second
floor structure will be removed and replaced.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So new roof over
everything.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Roof, yes. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In general, it's
additions and not demos.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. It's significant
demolition to the main structure --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No significant
demolition to the main structure, did I hear
that --
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, it is significant to
the main --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is.
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- to the main house. The
roof the second floor that's there now is
going to be removed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: The second floor
structure will be removed and we'll be working
from there to add and alter up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so the
existing second story is going.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: The whole second
story is new, but the footprint is the same
except for the attachment of the garage and
the --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well and the screen porch
proposed --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: --
and the deck. There's that
porch and the deck.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's a two-story
structure, the screen porch and above it is a
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
something on the -- yeah.
Okay, we don't want
field as you can imagine.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
doing?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.
and the screen
octagonal screen
A study or
any surprises in the
Hi, Mark. How are you
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ZBA Town of Southold - AuHust 26, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So all the new
proposed work and additions will have
conforminH setbacks?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. No further
questions from me.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll ask about the
foundation and the existinH foundation where -
- is it like a unused garage underneath there
MR. SCHWARTZ: There is -- yes. It's
basement and a storage area that they pull in
their sailboats and things like that, riHht
now.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. So it's not
habitable space in there?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not now we are
proposing to create a recreation room and
probably that garage area and that (inaudible)
space is habitable.
MEMBER HORNING: I know you're not cited
for having greater than 2-1/2 stories, but how
do you explain that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: The Building Department
defines the third story, I believe, as a grade
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
plane calculation if you have 5-1/2 feet of
exposed foundation from existing grade to
first floor, finished floor and we're less.
Definitely less than 5-1/2 around the corner
of the house, I believe, so it wouldn't be
considered a third floor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You'll see that in
number 5.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, we have another
application.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's next.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Coming up.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I've seen, definitely
discussing the overall mass, looking at the
mass from the pond area, it's not a pond, it's
saltwater, so any possible reduction of that
deck area would be greatly appreciated. Any
way to -- the mass is unbelievable. It is a
very, very narrow lot. Fortunately, it's
skewed back a little bit more toward the
street, but it's great.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't have any
questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else in the audience who'd like to speak to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
this application?
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion to close the hearing subject to receipt
of comment upon site inspection by the LWRP
coordinator.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
88
HEARING ~6414 - Michael and Renee Bellero
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for variance from approved
Cluster Subdivision setbacks and Code Section
280-18, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's May 26,
2010, amended July 13, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed
additions/alterations to existing single
family dwelling at: 1) less than the approved
front yard setback of 25 feet; 2) more than
the code required maximum number of stories of
two and a half. Property located at: 2095
The Strand and The Greenway, East Marion,
SCTM~1000-30-2-52."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, lucky you,
back-to-back.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect.
This house was built, I believe, in the
'80s. When it was built it was not built with
any kind of a variance. What we're trying to
do is expand the -- what I would consider the
second floor and add a couple of bedrooms.
When I submitted to the Building Department
they told me that this is considered a third
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
floor addition. So our addition does not go
higher than the existing ridge of the main
structure. It does increase the size of the
second -- the upper level.
That was the one issue and the second
issue was the -- we're trying to create a new
entrance, a new stairway to the first -- to
the main floor from the street. The setback
required is 25 feet, we've got a set of stairs
that come down to a landing and then you turn
to go down another set of stairs and that
landing is where we get the variance issue in
the front yard at 16.5 setback.
So adding to the house and not going
above the main ridge doesn't appear to be any
kind of a major concern, I've spoken with the
neighbor and he's not against it. He had a
retaining wall issue that we're talking about.
I think it's a reasonable request just to get
two bedrooms and a bathroom on the second
level, the upper floor.
MEMBER HORNING:
referring to?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
What neighbor are you
The neighbor to the north.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, that's the one
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
it would have the biggest
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
there's this house --
impact on.
It's back here, but
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why would they have
an impact, this house is down in a nook
almost?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This one is way up
on a big retaining wall in the back there
where the cyclone fence is. You're talking
about the neighbor that's got the orange fence
all the way around the cyclone fencing?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: And on the other
side is the golf course.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, his house is set
way to the west. He's not really adjacent to
the house, so he's not concerned (inaudible)
the occupants of the house, natural light or
anything like that. It's all wooded area back
there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's my file, can I
speak?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So you're telling me
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that this fourth and fifth bedroom is located
in the existing portion, there is no additions
to the -- I'm going to refer it as the third
story.
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, I believe I misspoke.
There is a -- we are adding to the corner to
the northwest corner.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Northwest corner,
okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: See the new square that's
10 by 11 or 100 square feet or so?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That addition there starts
at the basement and goes up all the way to the
second floor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that -- this 17
feet, this one?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 17 feet by 13.37
MR. SCHWARTZ: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which are you
talking about, oh this one?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, this right here is
attached to this jag roof
up a bit (inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
(inaudible) things
Yeah. So it's so
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
light it's hard to see which hatch is which.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So what do we -- if
we were to look at this today, maybe we should
look at it -- what are we seeing on the second
floor -- what the Building Department is
referring to as the third floor? Today, we're
seeing one bedroom, is that correct, with a
deck?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, open space with a
master.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, open space
with all vaulted ceiling in here?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: To the first floor?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is this here?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right now it's a roof.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: For the first floor
(inaudible) roof.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so this is
going to be added on to to include this.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and how big is
this area, do we know?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: I -- the second floor
addition --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 45 feet wide by
11.9-1/2. Yeah, it's asymmetrical, it's 15
feet on --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're showing it as
over here as 15 --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 15.8 on one side
and (inaudible) on the other side.
MR. SCHWD~RTZ: [Not at microphone.]
(Inaudible) It should include the sitting
room, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It looks like it's
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) is on the
chart there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Now, is there any
sprinkling in this house at all?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No. I didn't speak with
the state. The state (inaudible) it's a two-
story structure with a basement. A basement
with two levels above it
about the sprinklers.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
(inaudible) concern
Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: Their definition is
different than the Town's.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you have that
in writing?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't have it
writing, but I will get it.
Can you submit
Right?
And then what we're
anticipating doing is creating a family room
down in the basement --
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you get it and
submit it to us?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It will help.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so based upon
the prior application that we were discussing
down in Nassau Point, the difference here is
that we have a walkout basement and garage
area, basically, which exists now?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As exists right now,
let me just backtrack, there is a half-bath in
there?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so if we were
to walk over there we would see a half-bath?
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I reviewed the --
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- the existing foundation
drawing.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Uh, yes, existing
it's on. It's on 8-5.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: To be a toilet and a
sink.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I think it's a full
bathroom.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's a full bathroom?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could you check that
for us and let us know.
So you're going to convert that to a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
family room. The mechanical area is going to
stay where it is, that's where you wrote
existing bath when it says proposed, right,
cause there's a shower in this one?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yup.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The owner's father is
handicapped. He was in the military
(inaudible) utilize this basement area, that's
why we're expanding that
so he can get up to the
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(inaudible) elevator
(inaudible).
So there's going to
be an elevator over here?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's existing.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's existing.
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's kind of a lift
inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's a lift. Okay.
All right, so I guess the real question
is what is the need for the fourth and fifth
bedroom? Have they expressed that to you?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes (inaudible) children
(inaudible) one bedroom for each child
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The proposed new
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
stairs that are requiring the front yard
setback, you're going to call them out. You
have one enormous setback from this wooded
area that's not even visible from Greenway,
it's just a wooded part of the lot.
You're decreasing it, are you, from the
existing nonconforming setback? Is it being
reduced from -- what's it being reduced from?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: It's being proposed
at 16.5, the Code requires 25 on your second
front yard, but I'm asking -- what is the
current?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
(inaudible).
Okay, just checking
that that's the case. So you're going to be
decreasing -- well, increasing the non-
conformity by like 3-1/2 feet.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) lower
(inaudible) it's not (inaudible) the stairs.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, understand.
Yeah, so the measurement 16.5 is from the
proposed stairs. Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, I need to
digress one second regarding this third story
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
aspect between the difference between the
state and our particular code. By the nature
of Mark giving us this letter from the state,
are you saying that we would not be sprinkling
the third story or requesting?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We would not be
saying that? That's why I'm asking if the
state says that they're determining it to be
two-story and, therefore, does not require
sprinkler system then I want that evidence
submitted in writing. It would have an impact
on whether or not -- normally if we do grant a
variance for a third story, we'll have it
sprinkled according to Code, our Code. So --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me digress back
again. Let's assume that the Board was not so
inclined and did consider this to be a third
story and I'm speaking for myself now --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- not for the Board,
should we request any other alternate relief
from Mark other than the fact that, you know,
this may go or may not go? We don't know how
it's going to go, okay, in deliberation I'm
saying. In other words, is there any -- are
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
there any changes that could be made to the
dwelling that would not create three bedrooms
on the second or third floor, whatever way we
determine it to be, shall we ask Mark for any
alternate relief on this? He indicated --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it would be
an enormously different design. I mean, you
know, it's not just a minor change.
(Inaudible) of course (inaudible) we can
expand, but what you could do is indicate --
the Town may or we may require that you
sprinkle it anyway regardless of what the
state says.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: My original question
was (inaudible) why don't you put the bedrooms
in the basement? You've now indicated the
reason why is because a gentleman is going to
be, the father I suspect, is going to
utilizing the basement or a portion of the
basement -- a parent.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, so therefore
you're still in need of fourth and fifth
bedrooms on what would be the second or the
third floor. Okay. Is there any other
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
addition that can be put on the house rather
than going up?
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Not at microphone.) Well
certainly we could do it. The other option
would be (inaudible) I could to try and fill
in and create (inaudible) on the property so
that this wouldn't be considered a third
floor. We certainly could do that and the
property would then (inaudible) front setback
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Setback.
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's a lot of
money and a lot of drainage.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Exactly.
(inaudible) this structure.
(inaudible) --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, primarily on
the waterside.
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- (inaudible) scale.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay and it
would create a greater difficulty for the
people who are of wheelchair need because the
ability of having walk-outs is an advantage.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Vicki wants to get
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We're not really
Certainly
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
this on tape.
Yeah, there are also site conditions to
think about. This is a very difficult site.
You know, it's shoved way over to the corner
of one part of the site and the grade changes
are dramatic. I mean, you know, there's
virtually no rear yard and --
MEMBER GOEMRINGER:
location for the house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It's a strange
The side yard is a
little slit, basically, with a wood retaining
wall. You know, going out is much more
complicated than going up, you know, in any
feasible way. So that's what it looks like in
my opinion.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Towards The Greenway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, yeah. Well,
you know, they have some mechanical stuff in
that, you know, there they have septic,
they're proposing septic there. It's the only
flat part, actually, on the whole property.
MEMBER HORNING: The existing septic is
there and you're going to make a new septic.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. We have to have a a
new septic system when we add bedrooms.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: And so if you expanded
towards The Greenway with an addition, you'd
have to change the whole septic layout as
well, too, because you would be expanding into
that existing septic area.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, as well as the --
that existing deck area, the lift that's there
now. You'd cut this concrete also to get the
lower grade up to this, about 4-foot high up
to this lift.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So my next question
is do we close the hearing; is there anything
else that we may need from this applicant --
from this architect?
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~2q: Does anyone want
anything? I've already said I'd like to get a
letter from the state, not suggesting it would
determine the outcome one way or the other,
but at least it's information from them. Is
there anyone else wants anything?
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're talking about --
If the basement is not a floor now, it sounds
like it's turning into a floor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what my issue
is. This is really a three-story house?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, right and,
honestly, you know, I think prudence tells you
to consider that top story a third story and
tell them to put a sprinkler system in there
and I think it would cover all of it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Done deal.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's what I
think I would do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, yeah, that's
what I'm saying, I wasn't suggesting it was
going to preclude our nothing doing that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right, no.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But at least if we
-- I don't require any -- I don't need any
other information, but if anybody else on the
Board would like something, state it and we'll
get it.
MEMBER HORNING: Is there any way of
redesigning that stairway system exterior with
the landing on it to, you know, make it less
non-conforming in terms of the front yard
setback, that 16.5 figure?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, not -- I don't think
there really is. They do have a stair that
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now is a -- kind of a straight line adjacent
to it, but the problem is that the owners feel
that you really can't see where the front of
the house cause the stair is kind of skewed to
the side towards the garage. So it's really
just an aesthetic way to get up to the main
level and into the front door.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I wouldn't be so
concerned about that, George. I mean I would
be so concerned about it if we were on a road
that was very well accessed, but it's on a
dead end. So that's why I didn't raise that
issue understanding that it really is an
aesthetic.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. I mean it's
a corner lot and that
has --
MEMBER HORNING:
is a cul de sac and it
There's a golf course.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: And the guy on the
other side of the street is way setback. So
in this case it really doesn't have a beck of
an impact one way or the other. It's stairs,
it's not like it's a big (inaudible) --
MEMBER HORNING: Are we concerned with
minimizing variance?
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Of course, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Without a doubt,
certainly.
Is there anyone else in the audience who
would like to speak to this application?
Okay, hearing none, I'll make a motion to
close the hearing, reserve decision subject to
receipt of a letter via Mark Schwartz from the
state regarding the Code for sprinklers of
floors.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6408 - Bonnie M. Quinn
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for variance from Code Section
280-116(B) and 280-15, based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's June 14, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning ~as built"
alterations/additions and accessory structures
at: 1) less than the code required setback
from a bulkhead of 75 feet; 2) accessory
structures located in side yard when the rear
yard location is code required. Property
located at: 1075 Cedar Point Dr. West (adj.
to West Lake) Southold, SCTM#1000-90-1-4."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I guess it's
afternoon in about a minute.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not quite.
MR. STRANG: We'll try to sneak it in and
get it done before it's afternoon.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's not even close.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good, barreling
right along.
MR. STRANG: Good morning. Garrett
Strang, architect on behalf of Bonnie Quinn.
The application I think is pretty
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
unaware of
closed out
effort, at
everything into either -- well,
approval, I should say, on all
that we're talking about.
straightforward. My client bought this house
back in the early 2000s, I think '01 to be
precise, and it came with the situations that
we're looking at today were there and she was
the fact that they had not been
and dealt with. So she -- her
this point, is now to bring
to get the
these issues
Specifically, there was a second floor
deck that was added that in actuality is
further back as far as setback to the edge of
the lake. It's setback further than the
existing first floor deck. There's an arbor
that apparently was built, which is an open,
relatively open, structure I think with a
child's swing or something under this arbor
and there was a 10 by 12 shed that was place
in a side yard. Obviously, the only practical
location for that, all things considered, as
it would be you couldn't put it close to the
edge of the lake and to move it into the front
yard, if you will, which is permitted on
waterfront property would be, I think, not
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road, and the edge of the lake.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
got it. Yup.
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appealing at all to the neighborhood. So in
my opinion, the shed where it is is probably
in its best location and it appears also that
there was an outdoor shower that was added to
the utility room, which again is insufficient
setback to the edge of the lake.
So that's the nature of our application
and certainly any questions the Board has I'll
be happy to address.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: When was the house
built?
MR. STRA~G: The house was built in 1986
or that's when the CO was issued, so I'm
assuming that's somewhat --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Wasn't there Zoning
Board action on this?
MR. STRANG: Yes, there had been to build
the actual house --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I remember it.
MR. STRANG: -- because of the nature of
the configuration of the lot, proximity to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. STRANG: I think subsequent to that
variance having been granted. At some point
in time, the previous owner put in the rip-rap
that's presently there. We do, for the
record, have a Southold Town Trustees' permit
for everything we discuss here in the
application.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no further
questions right now. Does anybody else have
any questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I have none.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I just remember
the variance originally and I can understand
these things happening. I don't really have
any objection to them in any way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Okay, just one
quick question just to see what your opinion
is. The arbor that is really close to the
wetlands, it says 18 feet, but that's to the
far edge; it's really practically sitting on
it. It's nothing more than a wood platform
with two ladders and a little child's swing in
it and it really isn't a big deal one way or
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the other, but how essential is that to the
applicants? I mean could they move it or get
rid of it?
MR. STRANG: Well, I mean it's there, if
the Board objects and wants it removed,
certainly I think my applicant won't challenge
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's very minor,
but I just think I need to ask that because
we're trying to grant the fewest variances
possible and that looks like a very nominal
inconsequential structure that's very, very
close to --
MR. STRANG: I'm not sure what the
longevity of that structure would even be at
this point. It's filmsy.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That would be my
comment, too. It's like I don't even, in my
opinion, I don't even know what's on the
survey, why it's even on the survey. It's
just some type of swing structure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is. It's just
lattice with a platform and a little swing
thing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But anyway,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
nevertheless it is on the --
MR. STRANG: Yah, we're trying to cover
all the bases.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, sure. Sure.
I mean how do you feel? Do you want to keep
it or --
MR. STRANG: I think my client would like
to keep it, but if it becomes an issue,
certainly they'd acquiesce and have it
removed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, I have
no further questions.
Is there anyone in the audience who would
like to address this application? Bruce.
MR. ANDERSON: Very quickly, Bruce
Anderson, Suffolk Environmental.
What are the setbacks that are requested?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see, 27 feet
to the second story deck. This is --
obviously, 75-foot bulkhead setback is
required by Code. What's in place is a second
story deck at 27 feet from the bulkhead. An
arbor, which we've just described, at 18 feet.
39 feet to a framed shed, which is 12 by 10,
approximately. 34 to an outdoor shower, which
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is attached to a utility room and an arbor and
shed in the side yard where the Code requires
it to be a rear yard or front yard in the case
of waterfront property. So those are all of
the various variances.
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
Any other comments from anyone or
questions?
Anything from the Board?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I'll
make a motion to close the hearing, reserve
decision.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6401 - Andrew W. and
Dana Queen
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's December
8, 2009, updated May 27, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed deck addition
to a single-family dwelling at less than the
code required rear yard setback of 35 feet.
Property located at: 1380 Koke Dr., Southold
SCTM#1000-87-5-18."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have any
green cards with you today?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, you can proceed, I
guess if you want to (inaudible).
MR. QUEEN: I'm trying to build a deck --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just say your name.
MR. QUEEN: I'm sorry, Andrew Queen.
I'm trying put a deck on the back of a
house we purchased approximately a year ago
and the setbacks are not obviously adequate.
Some other factors that I think come into play
as it relates to it is there's a 12-foot right
of way that belongs to my neighbor that
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
mitigates the impact on the neighbors behind,
both neighbors on either side have expressed
in writing that they have no objection to it.
I understand that the condominium association
to my rear has expressed --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sir,
speak into the microphone,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
you might want to
loudly.
Thank you, sir.
MR. QUEEN: They've expressed concern
about that. So in my view this should be
relatively low impact. The right of way that
goes through there has full growth trees. You
can barely see anything to the rear in the
months there's leaves on the trees during
which the deck would get use as well as the
12-foot right of way that's in there brings me
to nearly the required distance to the
adjacent property to the rear.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so what's on the
other side of your rear yard?
MR. QUEEN: A condominium association
which is already a high-density area. The
decks there are built -- it looks, I've not
walked back there, per se, but visually 10
feet from their back.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I believe it
is, too. You know, I'm just reading your
reasons and I'm having a hard time reading
them. Did you go to Catholic school? I'm
only kidding.
MR. QUEEN: I got a B in handwriting.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Or you're a doctor, one
or the other.
It just says adequate foliage exists and
you just covered that and number two, there is
a right of way, which is approximately -- and
I can't read what it says.
MR. QUEEN: I confirmed that with my
neighbor who owns the right of way, it's a 12-
feet wide strip.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But it says, okay, it
says approximately the -- something -- width
maybe.
MR. QUEEN: It's approximately the width
of the proposed deck.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I see. All right
and then you're talking about that condo being
a high-density area, that's fine, and you
really don't have any other place to put this
deck. It's customarily in a rear yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
116
there's a sliding glass
door that's already to the rear of the house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. QUEEN: And actually the deck would
not go further much further out than the
existing stairs that egress out of that door
that were already existing to the door.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay, it looks
like it's a fairly wide deck. Is there any
way that you think that maybe you might -- is
there any reason why you have to have it that
MR. QUEEN: I think I've got the deck at
about 15 feet wide at this point.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 17.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 15 at the step, but
in the corner you're notching in some steps to
get down from the deck to your yard. 17 feet
is the majority depth of the --
MR. QUEEN: Okay, look I think I have the
survey drawn, I may have altered it in the
months (inaudible) the actual survey drawn
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MR. QUEEN: What's that?
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's customary to have a
deck in the rear yard.
MR. QUEEN: Well,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
would be 20 feet from the back line, which
would then I think be -- the deck would be 16-
foot wide from the furthest rear of the house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so -- oh, you're
looking at it from the opposite way we're
looking at it. We're looking to reduce the
amount of footage, which is fine, but, you
know, just is there any reason why you can't
have an 8-foot deck?
MR. QUEEN: And 8-foot deck probably
wouldn't give us an area to actually enjoy.
The object would be to be able to have a table
and chairs out there and put the barbecue and
(inaudible) --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What's the condition of
your rear yard right now? I mean is it grass?
MR. QUEEN: The rear yard, it's tree and
grass.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. First time I've
seen the Lowes things. Pretty neat.
MR. QUEEN: Inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Can you consider
reducing that deck somewhat to increase the
setback from 20 to 25 feet? That would give
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
you a 12-foot, still substantial. 12-foot is
not nothing.
MR. QUEEN: I would consider reducing it,
I would prefer not reducing it all the way
down to 12, if at all possible.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, but you will
do some reduction?
MR. QUEEN: Yes. Obviously I have to
deal with (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And how about the
people who are in the condos or the one person
here said that they're, obviously, they're
somewhat concerned because they're
considerably lower in grade than you are.
MR. QUEEN: Yeah, they're a ways down,
they're a good ways down. I actually, looking
out my -- (inaudible) the condo.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I know cause I saw
it yesterday, the day before when I was there.
It's a dramatic slope, but the trees that are
there are primarily deciduous. Would you
object, not that you're out there in the dead
of winter, but one of the things suggested by
that owner would be some sort of visual
screening. Would you object to putting in any
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
evergreen?
MR. QUEEN: Frankly, I think that takes
away from what that area already is. A
stockade fence I would view as an eyesore.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I wouldn't suggest
a fence.
MR. QUEEN: I have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Put in some
evergreens.
MR. QUEEN: -- spoken with my neighbor
that owns, actually this morning, that owns
the right of way of there, but if I'm required
to put the screening, he would allow me to put
the screening on that end of the right of way,
which would probably not make the person to
the rear happy. He's actually been trying to
take over that right of way. He's put up --
he's planted bamboo through there. He's put
trellises inside of there, so he's actually
trying to take on that piece of property. So
I've spoke with my neighbor who's not actually
given him permission to do these things. If
it would be required by you guys to put up
that screening, but (inaudible).
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MEMBER DINIZIO: The right of way would
be more or less part of your yard, right?
MR. QUEEN: I don't think that's the
proper thing to do. I think that the right of
way there is a very natural thing that looks
very good to both of us and we should both try
and enjoy it and take advantage of our
neighbor's good graces.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we just have
to enter it into the record, that's all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just put it out there,
I mean --
MR. QUEEN: Of course. I mean
(inaudible) did give me that permission, by
the way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh okay. With regard to
the shape of the deck, there's a bump-out
there. Is there a reason for that bump-out?
MR. QUEEN: There's not, it's just
aesthetic.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So say you shaved that
off and squared that off; is that, I mean is
it something that you have to have?
MR. QUEEN: I think that's about 2 feet
or so, yeah, if I shaved off the 2 feet I
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think the deck at that point would be -- if I
could get 14 it would probably be okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean the stairs are on
the side --
MR. QUEEN: Yeah. I put the stairs on
the side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
no questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah,
You okay? I have
I'm fine.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone in
the audience who'd like to speak to this
application?
Okay, hearing no further comment, I'll
make a motion to close this hearing, reserve
decision to a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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122
ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6405 - William Gorman
and Christi Watts-Gorman
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for variance from Code Section
280-121(A) la, based on an application for
building permit and the Building Inspector's
May 14, 2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed change of use to an existing
structure: 1) In the AC Zone the proposed use
is not allowed, 2) per Zoning Board of Appeals
grant #1508 structure was granted vacuum
cleaner sales and repairs, proposal is to
change to retail antique/craft shop. Property
located at: 45805 Route 25, Southold
SCTM#1000-75-2-14."
MR. GORMAIq: Hi, I'm Bill Gorman. I'm
co-owner of the property with Christine Watts
who's here.
Well, we discovered that the use of this
property was limited to a vacuum cleaner sales
and repaid store when we tried to get a permit
to build a second floor. So we've since
withdrawn that application. Now, we're just
trying to get an expanded use for the
building. I don't know if you'd call it
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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expanded, but you know vacuum cleaner retail
and repair is similar to retail store or shop
in that we would just like to get a
clarification from the Board that we can use
it for, you know, retail concern, craft shop,
gallery, anything along those lines.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question,
whose is this?
Are you fabricating anything in this
antique shop?
MR. GORM3~N: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there
anything that is somewhat different from a
retail operation that you would be -- would
have been doing if you were selling vacuum
cleaners or repairing vacuum cleaners in any
way?
MR. GO~: Anything different --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well let's take the
(inaudible) repair of a vacuum cleaner, I
mean, and the refurbishing or staining or
varnishing of a piece of antique furniture,
which you may or may not do in this location,
okay, I mean I'm going to the N-th degree as
opposed to what was priorly granted here. I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
just asking --
MR. GORMAN:
done, we've had
there.
That was done. That was
(Inaudible) Antiques was
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAN: They would do a little bit
of refurbishing, certainly nothing on an
industrial level. There was no power tools.
I think they did, well, I know they did
picture framing in there so they might have
had a little miter saw, but other than that
they would buy the frame lengths and chop them
to do the miters and do some of the frames
that way. So I think we're never looking at
anything more than -- I would imagine that
wouldn't even be considered light industrial.
I think it would just be more of a retail
concern.
We've had a couple
rent the place. One of
of people looking to
those was the Down
Home Store, he's just a bunch of little odds
and ends and crap, that stuff and I'm sure he
does little repairs as well, but we can't
obviously sign an agreement with them, any
kind of lease agreement without having this
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
resolved. So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Specifically what
use or uses are you applying for?
MR. GORMAN: Well, the category is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You keep mentioning
MR. GORMAN: The category is a retail
store or shop and that is what we're looking
for is that we would like it to be a little
bit broad so that we, you know, perhaps this
guy won't rent the building out then, you
know, it would be difficult to have to come
here every time there's a potential tenant and
see if we could get it approved. It's a
retail store that falls into the category of
retail store and shop, then that's what we
would hope to achieve today.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. GORMAN: Understanding that it's a
home to Christine and my daughter and adopted
son, so you know we're never really going to
have anything that would be offensive to
living there or offensive to us or anyone else
living there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I read the decision
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
before and the reason why it was so narrowly
defined was that the property is AC, you know,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
for anything.
It was really used
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, (inaudible) use
and you know, I'm not prone to this, but quite
honestly it's AC zoned and I realize it had
traditionally had business in it. I would
prefer that we grant this on a case by case
basis. You know, if you have something
definite coming in, you know, let us take a
look at it. I mean a vacuum cleaner shop was
the result of that, certainly doesn't have
like outside storage, probably doesn't have a
lot of traffic, you know, that would could
come with antiques and some retail uses.
People going in and out, so I mean I
understand cause I had spoken to a real estate
agent about this particular piece of property
and his -- he gave me his explanation too.
You know, you need to have leeway when you're
trying to sell a piece of property or trying
to use a piece of property and that I
understand, but on the same token we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
talking about a piece of AC zoned property,
we're not talking about a piece of business
property.
MR. GORMAN:
antique store, a
Should we define it as an
(inaudible) store or an art
gallery? Could we just give it to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Actually, my point of
view on a use variance, which is next to
impossible to get, my purpose would be that he
who comes in, comes before us, and states what
they want to do, and we make that decision
based on that and again it's only because
you're asking to have -- basically you're
asking to have it rezoned to a business use
perhaps limited by a decision we might make,
but quite honestly we don't have all of the
information.
I mean you could say art gallery, fine,
but, you know, an art gallery can be guys
displaying stuff outside, it could be you're
going to have shows in there, I could be -- we
don't know. I'd like to be able to ask those
questions before carte blanche having a
business expanded on a piece of AC property.
Then again, if you attach this to 10 acres you
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
could have a farm stand there and probably
have rides and corn mazes and everything else.
I realize (inaudible) the Code, but that is
the case.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our Town Attorney
has just brought the Code over and I want to
enter into the record and read to you what
retail store is defined as because it's very
broad and it's "An enclosed structure where
goods are offered for sale to the public and
take-out items including hardware, drugs, food
and beverages, furnishings, apparel and
similar products." Minor repair services
within the establishment may be undertaken as
part of product sales as opposed like a shoe
cobbler would do, you know, a shoe repair
place would do repairs there and so on.
That's quite broad.
One of the things that's required in a
use variance is to provide evidence that you
could not realize a reasonable return on the
use of the property as it's currently
permitted and I can certainly understand
logically why there's not a big rush to repair
vacuum cleaners; however, do you have any kind
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
of documentation or proof that you attempted
to rent this out to anyone in terms of its
permitted use? Is there anything you've
advertised that you could show us? You need
to have some evidence other than the logical
suggestion that maybe that isn't such a
booming business anymore.
MR. GORMAN: Do I have any evidence that
the vacuum cleaner store is --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, that you've
advertised, tried to find a tenant so that you
could realize a profit on the rental of your
property.
MR. GORMAN: I think there is a
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You need to use the
mike. Just state your name for the record.
MS. WATTS: Christine Watts. The Down
Home Store, the building was for sale and he
was looking to, you know, stay and he was
uncomfortable and I was uncomfortable and I
actually (inaudible) and that's why we came to
this.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, how did he
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
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know about this building being available?
MS. WATTS: I was in his store and I said
that I didn't have a renter there and he said
that he would love to rent that store. There
are -- I've spoken to a few other antique
based, small gift shop sort of things and I
recently spoke to Lori (inaudible) farmhouse
who was considering relocating. She may not
be anymore, but again anybody with the issue
at hand would not take our (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I guess, yeah. No,
I don't think that you want to proceed with
renting on an illegal basis, but what I'm
trying to get at is I'm sure that there are
many businesses that may be local here now
that would be interested, that makes perfectly
good sense. What I'm trying to find out about
because one of the requirements is that the
applicant show that they cannot use their
property as it's currently permitted.
In other words, it's not enough to say we
have renters in another category. You have to
demonstrate that you cannot rent that property
for what it's currently permitted use is,
which is vacuum cleaner --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No.
MS. WATTS: It's residential.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Everything, everything
in that zone.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, that's the
other part or it could be used -- it could be
rented out as a house, such as residential or
it could be used in an agricultural manner. I
mean that is what the required criteria for us
are. We, it's like an area variance, there
are different criteria for a use variance and
that's not an easy one to prove, particularly,
which is why there are not that many granted.
Now, I certainly don't want to see your,
you know, your property sit there while you're
paying taxes on it and can't use it for
anything, that's a hardship. I understand
that, but I'm trying to get into the record
whatever we can to show that as it's currently
zoned it's not adequate and certainly to call
it a retail store just about opens it up to
anything according to the definition in the
Code of a retail store.
MR. GORMAN: I think there's a built-in
hardship in that if the building is vacant for
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
two years and it loses it's grandfathered --
it loses it's use.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But it's not
grandfathered. The use that the Zoning Board
gave you is forever, it's not grandfathered.
MR. GORMAN: Okay, so that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not like a --
MR. GORMAN: So that is not a concern we
need to have. What about the time factor
where we advertise? I mean certainly we can
see if we advertise and we have a potential
candidate we say we need four months to do the
application and do the hearing, I mean there's
a built-in financial hardship there as well
without having some sort of category that we
can at least say, you know, an antique store.
I mean an antique store was there for 20
years.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But here's -- let
me try and state this again. If I were -- I
won't give you advice, it's what I would do,
but the way in which you can prove that this
permitted use for vacuum cleaner sales, which
is very narrow, isn't economically feasible is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
to advertise for someone to rent that space
for that purpose.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And to say we
advertised two months in a row and we got
absolutely no bites on this whatsoever. I
mean documentation that shows you've made an
effort to try and rent it out then we have
some evidence, because that is what the Code
requires us to have. I mean it is -- we're
not -- we don't have a lot of wiggle room that
is the law.
MS. WATTS: (Inaudible) go through this
whole process and then come back?
MR. GORMAI~: I think perhaps we -- can
leave this application open?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can adjourn it
without a date.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To give you ample
time to go and --
MS. WATTS: (Inaudible) be sufficient?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would warn you that
it's not just vacuum cleaners. That piece of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
property is zoned AC and there's plenty of
things you can do in an AC zone.
MS. WATTS: (Inaudible) what?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you would have to
look in the Code, quite honestly. You would
have to look in the Code and see, but again
the use that we -- that the Zoning Board gave
you in that use variance is only one use, one
additional permitted use in that zone for that
one particular piece of property and it was
very specific in that, you know, it gave the
criteria, it said, it described what the area
was as you did, and going from AC to business,
that's a huge jump and, again, if you had your
ducks in a row and someone came in and said,
you know, I'm really interested in this and
came before the Board and said, look it's not
that much difference, here's what's going to
happen. We're going to have an art gallery
say, right, but we're not going to have
advance wine and cheese tasting and shows:
it's just going to be people that come in and
see the art that I (inaudible).
Okay? It's just cause there has to be a
lot of restrictions on that. Again, I got
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
from the application itself, from the decision
itself that they considered the use, which is
vacuum cleaner sales, was not a very intense
use for that particular piece of -- particular
building, which is close to the highway,
probably not the best place to have a house,
to have a residence, you know, so it was
giving them some use for that piece of
property and I think you'd be hard pressed to
at least convince me that it can't be used for
something AC. I mean not that you couldn't --
you know, you could get any farmer to rent it
and do something in it, but --
MS. WATTS: I'll try again with the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, again I believe
it's attached to 10 acres that's used. You
know, there's plenty of things, plenty of ways
of going about it. I mean to my mind, it
would be better if you went to the Town Board
and got the zone changed. I mean based on the
criteria of what's around, there's gas
stations there, oil and heating guys there,
you know, in the general vicinity. I think
there's a doll factory there. There used to
be a firehouse not too far away, I don't know
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
what it is now. There's a car dealer down the
road, it's on the Main Road. Ail those things
kind of make a compelling issue for maybe a
zone change of some sort.
Listen, don't think I'm sending you on
your merry way, I'm just saying a use variance
is even tougher to get than a zone change
would be, in my opinion, based on the decision
that was given for that vacuum cleaner sales.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm only one of five.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- this building,
this structure that's being used is on the
same lot as your dwelling?
MR. GORMAN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it is an
accessory use to a principal dwelling cause
it's on one lot, it's not a separate lot.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's an accessory
building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Accessory building
with a separately predetermined use, which is
by use variance, but it is another building on
your lot that's improved with a principal
dwelling. $o there are other options in
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
addition to agricultural or vacuum cleaner,
which is to convert this to an accessory
apartment in an accessory structure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think they want
to do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: I'm just saying
what the options are.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There are plenty of --
there's a garage, there's -- yeah.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's options for
what you can do with it.
MR. GORMAN: Is that a possibility?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We now have a new
accessory apartment law, which says that by
special permission and there's -- we have the
forms available for you to look at that will
spell out the criteria. If you meet them
based on the size and you're occupying the
principal dwelling as long as you propose to
have as a tenant either yourself a family
member or someone who qualifies on the
affordable housing registry, which doesn't
mean that you have to accept the first on the
list or whatever you can interview, there's a
long list of people on there. That is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
something that you could bring before this
Board. There are square footage requirements,
I can't tell from looking at it off the top of
my head, but I'm saying that's only -- so I
guess what we're really trying to do is in
order to get a use variance you have to really
show that you can't do anything else with this
property, you just can't because that is what
the law requires us to have as evidence in
order to enter into a -- put into a
determination, into our findings and if we
were to do otherwise, we would be leaving
ourselves open for a considerable problem;
lawsuits and everything. We have to make
those arguments based upon the required
criteria and you know what they are, you've
seen them.
MS. WATTS:
microphone)
So (inaudible). (Not at
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. WATTS: And this has been now six
months since (inaudible). So if I did find a
renter and they came before the Board and it
was acceptable to you, is that still something
that we can do or not?
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The only way that
you can rent this out, and again I would
suggest if you'd like come into the office and
we would be glad ot provide assistance in
explaining the Code to you. What you would
have to do would be to apply for special
exception permit to do that and meet the
criteria of the permit, I'm not talking about
retail, I'm talking about -- are you talking
about a retail renter or are you talking about
as a tenant for a residence, for an apartment?
MS. WATTS: Well, I don't have a family
member that --
MR. GORMAN: Or a Section 8 --
MS. WATTS: Section 8?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: No, it's not
Section 8. The Town has a workforce housing
registry, people who already live in the town,
mostly, who are looking for a rental place and
who have fairly substantial income. If you
would like to know more about that, I suggest
you just go right down the hall and talk to
Phillip (Inaudible), he's a special projects
coordinator who will give you all the
background on what's involved there. I mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
it's something for you to explore.
At least you can rule it in or out as an
option. I mean we're trying to work with you
here is what I'm saying.
MR. GO~: I understand that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And to kind of
explain what the law limits us to. We can, we
may personally empathize with your situation,
but we have to base this upon very rational,
you know, spelled out criteria and I'm trying
to explain how it is you need to build up your
case before this Board.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Going back to what
the Chairperson said, you have to also explain
to us that whatever manner or process you used
in the past six months to try and find
somebody, okay, is a part of the procedure.
So if you start from ground zero today and
come back in two months, you say in two months
I have tried to rent this for the purpose of
what existed. It hasn't existed and,
therefore, I need to do something. In the
interim you can open the lines of
communication up with the Down Home Store and
say there's a possibility we might be able to
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do something here. So whatever way -- or go
the affordable housing route that the
Chairperson --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But again you'd
have to show that you couldn't use it as a
residential use or an agricultural use, that
you would really need to change its status
from retail vacuum sales and repair to some
other retail category.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the dollar and
cents proof of what it would take to return it
to a residence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right now it's
clear that it's been used as a gallery because
there's paintings on the walls, there's
paintings stored allover. There's, you know,
chairs stacked, there's a screen for lectures
or seminars were going on there or something.
So, you know, however it's been used or not
been used, the bottom line is for us to
consider a use variance, we'd have to have a
very strong case.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else -- are there other questions from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Board?
MEMBER HORNING: Septic system for that
building, can you explain to us what it is?
MR. GORMAN: The septic system is tied
into the house septic system.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. You purchased in
1999; is that correct?
MR. GORMAN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: And what was it being
used for at that time?
MS. WATT: (Inaudible) antiques.
MEMBER HORNING: So already there was a
violation of use going on when you bought it.
MS. WATT: (Inaudible).
MR. GORMAN: And they'd been there for --
MS. WATT: We didn't know.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: A long time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And nobody questioned
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, of course,
nobody looked into it and --
MR. GORMAN: I'm not claiming ignorance
as an excuse, but we just assumed, you know --
MEMBER HORNING: I'm just trying to get
some of this in the record for the historical
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
perspective of what has been going on there.
So in 1999 there was an art gallery --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Antique --
MS. WATTS: Antique store.
MEMBER HORNING: -- and how long after
your purchase was that in use?
MS. WATTS: 8 or 9 years.
MEMBER HORNING: Until?
MS. WATTS: (Inaudible) --
MR. GORMAN: Yeah, she moved by 7-11.
She moved to one of those red buildings.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So then you had a
vacancy?
MEMBER HORNING:
that?
MS. WATTS:
find out.
MR. GORMAN:
MS. WATTS:
MEMBER HORNING:
anything else --
MS. WATTS: Nope.
MEMBER HORNING:
Do you have a date on
I would say it was -- I can
I think it was 2008.
2008.
And has it been used for
-- since then?
MS. WATTS: Nothing, I have (inaudible)
people and so I have my equipment and my
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
chairs in there, at the moment. There has
never been any -- the North Fork Environmental
Council wanted to have a screening there for
their board once, they came and they did it
there. I applied (inaudible) so art that's on
the wall is not for show, it's just my
friends'. Actually, in all honesty,
(inaudible) there once a week and he doesn't
even pay me rent. So that's the only --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think
anybody was criticizing and, in fact, it's
very laudable that you're attempting to do the
right thing on this property. Nobody was
really questioning your lawfulness.
MR. GOPd~J~N: Is there an avenue for it's
been in use for so long that --
MEMBER HORNING: No, I'm just inquiring.
The structural soundness of the building
overall, do you have any assessment on that --
MS. WATTS: It's been all redone. It's
redone almost completely.
MEMBER HORNING: So as far as you can
testify, it's a structurally sound building --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it was built in
'72 or something --
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MEMBER HORNING: When I saw it there were
some cracks in the wall and such, but those
are cosmetic?
MR. GORMAN: Cosmetic.
MEMBER HORNING: All right, so it's a
structurally sound building with septic
attached to another septic use by the adjacent
house on the same parcel, correct?
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What does the Board
want to do?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We want to adjourn it
without a date, let them get some things
together and see if they can come in and if
they can prove they need a use variance --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to everybody?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Is that agreeable
Sure, yeah.
Okay, so I'll make
a motion to -- I did ask and there was nobody
else in the audience --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- who wanted to
address the application. Okay, hearing no
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further comments, I'll make a motion to
adjourn this hearing without a date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6406 - Eileen F. Debaney
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's June 3,
2010 Notice of Disapproval, concerning Was
built" deck addition to existing single-family
dwelling, 1) less than the code required front
yard setback of 35 feet, at: 1140 Carrington
Rd. and Vanston Rd., Cutchogue. SCTM#i 000-
111-6-10."
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
are you today?
MRS. MOORE: Hi.
Okay, Ms. Moore, how
Good.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore of all the
years I've been going to Nassau Point, I've
noticed this house going down Carrington.
We've had friends that we spend a lot of time
in Carrington. This house has been in
existence for a relatively long period of
time. What would you like to tell us about
the deck?
MRS. MOORE: Sure. Well, at little bit
of background, Debaney is the former owner at
the time we made the application. My client
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Mr. and Mrs. Bendick were in contract for the
purchase of the property, both Debaney and
Bendick joined in the application.
Mrs. Debaney is an elderly woman. There
was a cement patio under the deck and, at some
point in time as she was having trouble
walking, her son built the deck over top of
the patio because it was more elevated to the
backdoor. It met up with the backdoor. It's
still only a few feet above grade. It's not
on grade, as the patio was it was slightly
above grade. Apparently, they should have
gotten a building permit for the deck, it was
not discovered that they didn't have a permit
in so my client and I did the CO search and we
discovered that the deck did not have a
permit. So that's the application we're
making today.
We -- you've gone to the property. You
can see and I'm sure you've seen for yourself
Carrington, the corner of Carrington and
Vanston, the house is quite elevated from the
road and when you're on the Bendick/Debaney
property the deck -- it has no neighbors,
essentially. Vanston Road is wooded, so it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
screened from view from Vanston Road when
you're actually in a car down on Vanston Road
and you try to look up to see, you can't even
see it. You can barely see the house. The
Debaneys some years ago purchased what is on
the survey showing as lot 362. That was
actually one of the Nassau Point properties
that was -- the Debaneys purchased with their
adjoining property owner and split to give
both of them half the piece because that area
there is a natural swale. So all of the water
that comes off of the Bendick property, the
water naturally flows into the swale the
natural swale, which is on my client's
property and, in fact, that swale picks up a
lot of the water that is carried from off
premises from other properties in Nassau
Point.
Nassau Point, just for the record, is a
hilly, wooded area where it's a 1930s
development with some drainage, but many of
the homes predate our drainage code. So a lot
of the drainage problems that I believe one of
the neighbors raised in his letter are from
existing homes that may have in the past were
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
not built with proper drywells for their
homes. That will eventually be corrected over
time since the Town has now adopted a drainage
code that hopefully new homes and large
renovations will require compliance with the
drainage code.
In the interim, for this particular
application, I had Angel Chorno, the Bendick's
archictect, go out during a rainstorm to see
where the water was running off and the letter
was prepared to address where water is running
off from this property. So the conclusion is
that this deck, any -- again there is a patio
underneath, the deck is pervious, but the
patio underneath any water that's on the
premises goes towards the swale, which remains
on the clients' property.
I think -- if there's any other
questions, I'd be happy to address them.
Angel Chorno is here, Mrs. Bendick is here and
we would just ask to be allowed to retain a
wood deck, which is attractive in character
and quite small in relation to the homes and
this property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Maybe I missed it,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
but are you attempting to do anything about
the water runoff on the house?
MRS. MOORE: The existing house, the
house that's there?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's -- we're not
doing anything to the house. There's no
construction --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, no, no. Are you
attempting to put any storm drains in --
MRS. MOORE: To the existing house?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- to this house?
MRS. MOORE: There are drywells there,
excuse me, there are gutters and leaders, but
I don't believe there's drywells, right? No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's nothing
showing on the survey.
MRS. MOORE: There's nothing showing
there. I mean it's up to the Board, it would
certainly be an expense given the fact that
we're not doing anything to the house and the
property is quite large given the lot coverage
here and, again, any water runoff is in fact
going in -- staying on our own property into
that swale.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Into that swale.
MRS. MOORE: Into that swale, which is
our property. So we have water containment
occurring on site for all structures on site.
It seems that there is no drainage issue
applicable to this particular property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, Pat. I was
only thinking from the standpoint of the
cement slab, which may be --
MRS. MOORE: Well, I was concerned about
where the water was going --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that's the reason
why I raised that issue.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I know and that's why
we specifically looked at it and that water
from the slab is going into the swale.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and the last
statement, very simply is, there is no
intentions or intent to enclose this deck in
any way?
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Screen porch, nothing
of that nature?
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Very good. I have no
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further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm all set.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I have no
questions either except to add that I was
there when it was raining cats and dogs also
as well as when it was dry and to be perfectly
candid I saw no observable runoff of any
consequence that went into the road. It's a -
- as you point out, Nassau Point is full of
properties that are of varying grade, lots of
hills and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Nooks and crannies.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: -- nooks and
crannies and it's not (inaudible). So I have
no questions.
Is there anyone else in the audience who
would like to address --
MRS. MOORE: I would just also point out,
I'm sorry, there is a catch basin that's
showing on the survey and the letter pointed
it out, but there are actually two catch
basins. The one on the east side closest to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
my client's property is
Road on the survey. It's
the surveyor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~:
showing on Vanston
identified as CB by
Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: So there is a catch basin
there. There is also one observed across the
road from it. So just a point of information.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone in the
audience wish to address this, please come
forward.
MR. RASWEILER: My name is John
Rasweiler, I'm the person who wrote the letter
objecting to the request
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N:
your name for the record,
for the variance.
Could you spell
sir?
MR. HASWEILER: R-A-S-W-E-I-L-E-R.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. RASWEILER: I live on the property
directly across the street from the Debaney
property and in recent years there has been a
very serious stormwater runoff problem there
and this is not a figment of my imagination.
It's my understanding from numerous
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communications with the Highway Department
they computerized everything and I have had
numerous interactions with them since 2006. I
was actually the one who requested them to put
the drainage well on the corner of the Debaney
property. When that didn't work, they then
put another drain well, a substantial one, on
the opposite side on the corner of my
property.
We're not yet certain that that is
solving the problem because so much water goes
down to that intersection when traffic goes by
it splashes the water up onto the embankment
and the embankment has been washed out on
repeated occasions. The most serious, recent
serious bout of flooding occurred in March of
this year. That was after that western
cistern had been put in, the one on the corner
of my property. That flooding washed out the
embankment and again I had water going all the
way through my property leaving a wide trail
of destruction.
It goes through my property, it goes down
an embankment next to my pump house down to
the beach where if you look at the beach right
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
now the beach is a mess. The debris is still
down there. The water down on the beach does
not come only from the intersection of
Carrington and Vanston; however, that is a
contributing source of the water. So it's an
environmental issue.
All of that water and debris, because it
takes a lot of forest litter and deer
droppings down into the cove, it's going to
pollute the cove. So I've been trying with
all of my neighbors to cut down on the amount
of stormwater runoff because of both the
erosion and the environmental damage to the
cove.
Now, I do disagree with the statement
that there is no significant runoff from the
Debaney property. It was not my part to go up
and stand on the property, it's not my
property. All I could do was examine it from
the roadway from all sides. If you look at
the slope of their driveway, they're dumping
water from their driveway, which is a small
circular drive in front of the garage, they're
dumping that water onto the roadway, which
slopes down to the intersection. Similarly
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the house directly across the roadway on
Carrington, which belongs to (inaudible) at
985 Carrington, they're similarly dumping
water onto the roadway. I'm getting all of
this. It's not only coming into my property
at the intersection, but there's another place
opposite the driveway of the piece of property
right behind lot 362 where the roadway is
presently being washed out.
I was fully prepared to go to the Highway
Department yet again to have them come and
repair that until this matter came up out of
the blue. I said, hey, hold everything.
Before I get that repaired, it's an issue with
respect to this request for a variance. So I
held off getting in touch with the Highway
Department about that damage being done.
Again, it's water going down into my property
and it's going to undermine the roadbed that
is directly below the Debaney property.
I agree from looking at the situation
some of the water is probably going into that
depression behind their house, which they
apparently own, but from what I can see some
of it's probably also going onto Vanston Road.
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Certainly the water from the driveway is going
onto Vanston Road.
My goal, at this point, frankly, I'm not
trying to get them to destroy the deck. I do
not object to the deck on aesthetic grounds.
I've never objected to the deck on those
grounds; however, something has to be done
about the damage that's being inflicted by
stormwater runoff from that property and some
other properties in the immediate area.
That's why I registered my objection and I
think there are simple steps that could be
taken to arrest the amount of runoff.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Have you attempted to
speak to them at all?
MR. RASWEILER: No because I haven't seen
anybody there and, you know, it's only been
several weeks and, furthermore, I'm very, very
busy. I had to take a day off from work to
come here, but I felt it was important enough
that if there were questions you could ask me
questions I could respond directly.
I would really like to do everything
possible to facilitate the matter. I'm not
trying to be a thorn in the side of the new
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people that apparently own the property now.
I just want the problem solved.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is Mrs. Debaney here?
MRS. MOORE: She's -- Mrs. Bendick is
here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Bendick is here.
Are you willing to speak to this gentleman
outside on the --
MRS. BENDICK: (Inaudible
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If you have to say
something, you have to come up to the mike.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Come on up, please.
Just state your name for the record.
MR. CHORNO: My name is Angel Chorno.
I'm the architect who did the drawing for the
existing deck and I'm the one who sent the
letter that I was there Sunday looking at what
the rain is doing. Of course, it was not a
storm like the one that he mentioned, but it
was substantial rain.
All of that semi-circular drain that the
property has, half of that goes the opposite
side. There is a crown right there and half
is going to Vanston, the other half goes the
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other way. So half of that drive is not
putting the water into Carrington Road. That
water is going around the corner into the
catch basin that's shown on the survey and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Angel, can I ask
you to just hold on one second? I'm sorry to
do this, but we have to change tapes.
(TAPE CHAIqGE TO #2)
MR. CHORNO: -- to the catch basin. The
little bit that slips through the catch basin
goes around the corner and goes to the same
swale that is on the property that was
mentioned before. So I don't know how you can
say that that property is dumping water in
your property. It has to go a long way in
order to do that.
MR. RASWEILER: Okay, well where is --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You have to approach
the Board, excuse me Madame Chairman for
saying this.
MR. CHORNO: That's all I have to say.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: Leslie, could I ask this
fella to identify his property on this map?
MR. RASWEILER: Okay, my property -- I
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have to look at the map myself
where the words ~Vanston Road"
Oh, well all I have is
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
we'll compare it.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Yeah.
locate your property on this.
-- do you see
are written?
Bring that up here,
See if you can
MRS. MOORE: Is it that horseshoe there?
MR. RASWEILER: This is Debaney and my
property is all of this.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. RASWEILER: From Vanston Road all the
way down to the beach. In other words, it's -
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) your house?
MR. RASWEILER: That's my house. So it
would be this piece and that part, okay, and
there's a drainage cistern here and there's
one at the corner and then there's also a
drainage problem down in the hollow
(inaudible) there's a drainage problem over
here.
MEMBER HORNING: That's my pen.
MR. RASWEILER: All of this is my
property.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. RASWEILER: So I'm handling
stormwater runoff damage done here and there,
okay? And all you have to do if you go out
there right now and go onto my property you
can see the damage. I haven't cleaned it up
since the last time. I cleaned it up --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You need to go back
to the mike, please.
MR. RASWEILER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, look, let me
make a comment, if I might, please? I have a
very similar situation where I live and it's
very frustrating.
and we know it's
damages property.
I mean flooding is awful
environmentally awful and it
What we need to understand
is whether or not this deck, this rather small
deck that's been there a long time, which is
what's before us, is contributing to that --
if there's any evidence to show that that deck
is contributing to runoff.
If it's driveways and accumulation from
other properties and so on, that needs to be
addressed with the Town Engineer, Jamie
Richter, or with Pete Harris with the Highway
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Department and I know you must certainly know
them both at this point --
MR. RASWEILER: He's Town Superintendent
of Highways.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIg: Yes.
MR. RASWEILER: I know he's been out
there --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Yes and it's a
problem all over, especially in Nassau Point.
~unyplace where it's really hilly, you're going
to have intersections and properties that are
just, you know, subsumed by water especially
when you have really, really heavy rains. So
it is a problem, but what is before us is a
24.4-foot setback where the Code requires 40
feet for a preexisting -- not a preexisting,
it's an bas-built" deck and whether or not
that -- the real concern we would have would
be whether or not that deck is a contributing
factor and if so if there's something we can
do to allow the deck to remain and to mitigate
some of that runoff, but I really haven't
heard anything that suggests that the deck is
responsible.
MR. RASWEILER: The deck could not be
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totally responsible. The driveway definitely
is contributing, but that's a separate issue.
I believe the Code now states that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: It's impervious.
MR. RASWEILER: -- if somebody now puts
in a driveway there has to be some sort of
drainage provided, but that driveway I assume
was put in previously.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. RASWEILER: With respect to the deck,
you know, I can't go up on the property. It's
my property to go up on the property every
time it rains. Furthermore, it's the very
heavy rainstorms that are causing the damage.
Rain like we had this week, I went up there
this morning and there was no evidence of
damage; however, when there's a torrential
downpour and that's happened on a number of
occasions in the last four years, I have a
swath of damage through my property and the
water has to be coming from Debaney and
(Inaudible) properties because they're above
me and they drain down in my direction.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. HASWEILER: With respect -- there are
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simple solutions. There's a retaining wall,
if that could be patched up to hold, that
would help to hold the water. And, finally,
all one has to do is dig two small trenches
along the side of the deck, put in some
perforated pipe, stone on top of it and the
pipes run them into a drywell. I could do it
in one day as a do-it-yourself-project. So
there are ways of making sure the deck doesn't
shed any water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. RASWEILER: I say that, I worked as a
mason's apprentice many years ago and I did
that kind of work. So I'm familiar with the
kinds of solutions that one can come up with.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HASWEILER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anything else?
MRS. MOORE: I think it's already been
stated that the water -- that we have a 294
square foot deck and we have a 4.8 percent lot
coverage overall of this property so it's a
very minimal development of this house on the
overall size of the property and my clients'
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purchased an entire extra piece, that extra
swale, to really solve all, you know, drainage
from other sources, but certainly at a minimum
it covers all of our drainage needs.
So it seems, you know, he's asking --
we've dealt with the drainage. The Debaneys
dealt with the drainage just by the fact that
they purchased the property to prevent another
house from being developed and keeping the
swale as it is. So I don't know what more we
can do, I think the evidence is that we're not
creating a drainage problem by this 294-
square-foot deck which used to be a patio.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Okay.
Any other questions
or comments from the Board?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing, reserve
decision.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6396 John and Daniella Venetis
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Requests for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's April 20, 2010 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an application for
reconstruction and second floor addition,
which new construction will be:
1) less than the code-required minimum 75
feet from the bulkhead,
2) less than 35 feet from the front lot
line,
3) less than 35 feet from the rear lot
line,
4) less than 25 feet for both (combined)
minimum side yard setbacks,
5) exceeds the code limitation of 20%
maximum lot coverage (building area);
at 2600 Takaposha Road, (adj. to Corey Harbor)
Southold; CTM 1000-87-6-4."
MRS. MOORE: May I start?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you can.
MRS. MOORE: Good afternoon. Patricia
Moore on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Venetis. I
have with me today Mr. and Mrs. Venetis and
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their lovely family, the four children, all
their children. I also have with me Angel
Chorno who is the design professional on this
project.
We -- what I presented to the Board to
give you, to make life easier, I gave you a
memo in support of the variances, which I'll
go over. Just to identify the documents that
are here, for your information. There is a
portion of the tax map book so you can see the
circular road that ends, that is the Takaposha
Road I have on it it shows the tax map numbers
and the five homeowners that make up this
small community. I also have, for the record,
an aerial, Google aerial photograph of the
houses in this community.
After that I have an outline, which I'll
discuss setback issues. In particular the
front yard setback because as I was preparing
for this hearing and getting some surveys that
the Building Department had, I realized that -
this came up on the Zang application -- the
Building Department had applied an average
setback for a front yard setback and we
actually have, the Venetis property and the
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Hartford property, we found an old survey from
the Hartford Living Trust, which is the
neighbor to the right of this house, tax lot
number 2, and the front yard setback is
showing us 19.5 as the existing setback. So
an average setback of these two properties
would be 24.5.
So we actually have the existing house,
even with the variances that were granted on
this house would have conformity with front
yard setback, but that seems to justify the
variance in the past that was granted for this
deck because when you take the average
setbacks of all of the homes, it actually
comes to the number that the variance for the
deck was given many years ago. So the numbers
all match up, but nonetheless we are
requesting just a second floor addition over
the existing space so we are actually even
more conforming in that our setback of the
front yard is the house, which is at 28.6. So
if you apply the average setback of 24.5, we
are conforming at 28.6.
After that I provide you with some
property cards that show the progression of
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the development of the properties in this
community. The first one that just happened
in the order, tax map order, the first one is
Venetis, the next one is the Hartford
property. Most of these properties have
pretty much stayed the same property owners
and they have been renovated over time and the
best way to see that is the property cards,
the Assessor's records which in many cases
have the original house that may have been
built in the 60s and then the renovations that
many of these homes were renovated in the 80s,
that seems to be the timeframe of many of
these renovations. So I provide you with some
of the progression of the improvements in this
neighborhood and as you go you'll see the
different photographs.
Hartford is, as I said, the closest house
to us. They don't have a bulkhead, so their
setback is -- they don't have to deal with
setback to the bulkhead. In fact, the
wetlands are pretty much the same distance as
our bulkhead is. So again these properties
are very similarly developed. When I show you
the Zang application, which actually got a
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variance, I guess they're just waiting for the
client to build and we have the survey from
the file of the existing house, so I have
Zang. Then Pinella, Pinella seems to be the
only house that has pretty much stayed the
same. They haven't -- they may have renovated
with some window replacements and things like
that, but from the looks of it it doesn't
conform with FEMA and any renovations at this
point would be back to this Board because of
the FEMA issues. So that's just obvious from
the look of the house. The foundation is
maybe a foot, foot and a half, from grade and
you know from the surrounding area that the
conforming elevation has to be higher because
of the flood zone.
Then finally, the house that is McNamara.
That is a significant house and it has -- you
can again see the progression of the
improvements of this house from 1980 when it
was first constructed, 1990 when an addition
was added, it looks like a second floor was
increased, and then finally more currently
there is an open building permit for all new
decking and siding and windows and so on. So
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there's been a lot of work to that, but for
whatever reason it didn't have to come before
you being that it's improvements to the
existing structure.
So that just gives you the flavor of the
community. Looking at the first page of the
memo, I tried to take the issues with respect
to the variances that the Building Department
has sent us here for, but again I point out
that with respect to these variances we have
downsized this proposal. We are doing just a
second floor. The bedrooms are being
relocated to a second floor. It is only a
portion of the house over the living space not
over the garage in order to get the extra
living space on the second floor, which is an
attic right now. So it's a roof dormered
second floor.
My clients are willing to reduce the lot
coverage, the existing deck that had
previously been granted variances in the 80s.
So they're willing to take away from what is a
legally permitted structure, the decking, in
order to provide the living space to the
second floor. For obvious reasons, their
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children are here, their family -- this is
their family and they will speak for
themselves, but the living space, the bedrooms
are for the children. Eventually these little
kittens turn into cats and they need a little
more room.
The second variance is the lot coverage.
Again, we are reducing the lot coverage. We
are not increasing the lot coverage for the
second floor it is no change, but we are
actually reducing the lot coverage by cutting
back some of the decking. So that is pointed
out here. The third variance, which is listed
here, is setback. The front yard setback and
as I pointed out, before when we looked at the
front yard setbacks of the neighboring houses
and the closest house within 300 feet we
actually have a conforming front yard setback.
Nonetheless, we are still willing to reduce
the doubts in order to provide for the living
space.
Finally, the side yard setbacks. The
side yard setbacks that are required are 10
and 15. It's -- what we're doing is, again,
second floor space that's the existing house.
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If you look at the survey, the Venetis survey,
you can see that the existing house on the
east side is existing at 12 feet, we need 10.
so we are conforming there. On the west side
the deck remains in part, but the house where
the addition is going is actually at 19 feet
and the requirement is 15. So we are
conforming, our second floor would be
conforming to side yard setbacks. The
Building Department when I asked about this
they said well because you're making a change,
even though we are cutting back the existing
deck they felt that they just should just
include it all in the variance request so it's
all dealt with under one variance, but I would
point out that we are conforming with respect
to this proposal.
The other portion, as I said before, the
existing deck is -- most of it is remaining.
What they would like, my clients would like to
do is just add some trellis to the back deck,
the waterfront side of the deck that does not
require any structural changes. The trellis
would just enable the owner to put a fan on
the back on the deck because that seems to be
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a better way of handling the bugs in this
area. The -- I'm sure you're all aware of
when you're near the water particularly so
much undeveloped area around them the bugs are
quite (inaudible) and it's very difficult for
them to use the back deck as soon as the
afternoon draws near and the evening -- they
just need some air circulation and the fan
would be the proposed way of doing it.
They would keep the deck unenclosed in
the sense that the trellis provides just a
support mechanism for a fan, but structurally
it doesn't require any modification. The
footings area adequate, it's just a
modification to the posts of the deck.
In reviewing the (inaudible) history of
this property it appears that there was an
error made by the Building Department cause
there was an issue in the prior application
that somehow or another this was a seasonal
dwelling and I wondered where that came from
because the pre-CO showed that there was heat
in the house and there always has been and my
clients, to their knowledge, have always had
heat. It appears that the pre-CO referred to
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a heat pump and it was a heated house. When
the Building Department issued what would have
been the addition to the deck in the back by
the prior owners (inaudible) or something like
that, that building permit. The Building
Department claimed that it was a deck addition
to a seasonal dwelling and that was an error
on the Building Department's part because that
was a heated house and their own pre-CO showed
it as a house that was built with a heat pump.
It was heated, insulated and had all -- it was
what it is today and I confirmed with my
client and yes the, you know, they've had to
replace the heat pump with a newer version
because of the many years, but it's always
been heated. So it has been and will continue
to be a heated year-round house.
We have intentionally kept the garage the
same so that we are again minimizing the
request to just second floor and the trellis.
The neighborhood is for the most part, I've
given you the drawings to show you what the
neighborhood is like, and I did review Land
Preservation when they went for the hearing
the acquisition of the (inaudible) property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
There was a recognition that there are five
homes in that area and, in fact, and I'll
provide this after the hearing, but what I
went to look at their files they -- the
environmental report that was done for the
(Inaudible) acquisition actually pointed out
that as the homes are improved that these
homes that are existing will in fact have
their sanitary systems replaced and upgraded
so that they are more conforming and more
environmentally making an environmental
benefit to this community.
Also, in support of that position, even
though common sense tells you that that is in
fact the case, I have asked Interscience,
which does the environmental reports for many
of the Southampton and Village of Sag Harbor
and so on, they are going to provide the main
opinion letter to put in your file with
respect to the fact that this project, as it's
proposed, will not have an adverse impact on
the environment. Your own SEQRA determination
concludes that, but in fact will be an
enhancement to the environment in that and
also the fact that the house will have proper
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drainage when the roof is altered. So I will
ask that then environmental report be
provided.
I also am aware that you sent this to
Land Preservation for comments and their
meeting isn't until --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: August 31.
MRS. MOORE: -- August 31st so it'll
probably have to stay open I'm sure to accept
that and giYe us an opportunity to review it.
So anticipating all that I'm giving you what I
have, but in anticipation of more information
to come. I would also point out that the
purchase of the (inaudible) property comes
about the same time that the Town acquired the
Zoomis and the Hertado properties and created
conservation subdivisions, which at the time
they were doing a generic impact statement to
try to reduce residential homes on all these
large tracts of property. So the (Inaudible)
property was just all part of the overall
Town's plan to reduce residential development
on undeveloped property. So I'm not,
certainly not, to prohibit or limit the
ability of homeowners of existing homes to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
improved and upgraded and expanded as need be
within reasonable limits, you know, which we
think we have here today.
This being the most -- this is a very
reduced plan that we've provided for you. We
have made this plan feasible for the
applicants, but also in consideration of
minimizing volumes and size of this project
and we hope that you will feel that this
project is certainly in keeping with the
Board's policies and the law. I believe I've
gone through, I have it all written out so I
don't want to read to you what is already in
writing, that seems to me redundant and not
necessary.
So I'm here to answer any questions and
any design issues that you may have questions
that you may have or questions you might have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's Ken's so do
you want to start?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. The first one
again is with the sanitary system. You're not
sure where it's going to go or where --
MRS. MOORE: No, we know where it's going
to go.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, you do.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. We're -- obviously a
sanitary system, a new one is not required if
we don't do anything on this property. So
it'll continue to be as it is, which is it's
right now in the front yard. I would say on
the left side, on the west side of the
property in the front yard in front of the
decking area. That's where the existing
sanitary system is presently. We have a new
design. Joe Fischetti actually designed a new
sanitary system and -- is he here? No. Okay,
I saw him in the hallway earlier, but he's not
here for this application, but certainly I can
defer any questions to him.
We have a design. In fairness to my
client in spending so much money to get here,
the next step would be to give this sanitary
design, which is a conforming design, to the
surveyor, which Stanley Isakson is no longer
in Town so I would have to have the new
surveyor plot it on the survey and submit it
to the Health Department as a modification to
the existing system. So all being in
conformity with current standards, that's the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
plan.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Specifically the
amount of bedrooms.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have -- the number
of bedrooms is four in total.
MEMBER SCHi~EIDER: Three -- four, right.
Four.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry, five.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Five. There's one on
the first floor, that's the existing. The
other ones were relocated to the second floor.
There is an additional one bedroom, that's why
we're going for -- we have to get sanitary
approval. If we kept to the same number of
bedrooms the sanitary would -- we wouldn't
have to go there, but because we are adding
one bedroom and -- oh two bedrooms, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you please
speak at the mike because we're tape recording
MRS. MOORE:
you get -- okay.
I'll repeat it for him so
Go ahead.
He's actually -- the property owner is
going to clarify.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, fine.
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MR. VENETIS: It's a three-bedroom home
182
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you just
state your name, please, sir, for the record?
MR. VENETIS: Oh sure. John Venetis.
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. VENETIS: It's a three-bedroom home
right now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you're going to
make it --
MR. VENETIS: We would like to make it a
five-bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Five-bedroom.
Okay, thank you.
MRS. MOORE: For what reason?
MR. VENETIS: We have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think you told
us.
MRS. MOORE: I think it's obvious,
for the record, I mean --
MR. VENETIS:
MRS. MOORE:
but
We have four children and
Well, for the record since
we don't have a stenographer to count heads.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If we were being
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videotaped it'd be fine.
MRS. MOORE: That's true. So that's --
the plan is as shown here on the -- with the
elevations. Yeah.
Go ahead. Do you have other questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, not at this time.
MEMBER HORNING: Pat, without being too
lengthy, could you kind of describe the
difference between this application and the
application that was denied?
MRS. MOORE: Sure. Okay, this -- the
first application, the Building Department
considered the application a demolition
because initially when we applied we thought
that the FEMA regulations required us to raise
the foundation and given past history of
raising foundations and what impact it has on
an existing first floor, it might result in
more being removed than was -- than would have
been allowed as a renovation rather than as a
demolition. So that was the initial, the
biggest issue that seems to have been -- while
during the hearing and just before the hearing
we found that the FEMA map came out and it
looked like we didn't have to do it, it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
still -- our Notice of Disapproval still
addressed it as a demolition.
Also the plan was to build a second floor
over the entire existing house, so we've cut
back and not used any portion of the garage
space, horizontal space for any addition. The
original plan was keeping -- it was actually
creating a wall in the front of the house in
order to change the architectural design of
the house and that's not here. We are
actually removing the bay window and removing
some of the existing decking. That is
different from the first application. So the
-- we are removing structures that had gotten
variances to exist, the decking that had been
previously permitted.
are finding that the
have been conforming,
So even though now we
front yard setbacks would
it still would trigger
the lot coverage issue and since we had our
application was to reduce the lot coverage to
make this application more conforming we still
have to address lot coverage from somewhere
and the only place we can take it from an
existing house is from the existing deck. So
that's also part of this. This plan is
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185
different than the previous plan.
MEMBER HORNING: Let me tackle these in a
different way then. Notice of Disapproval
distance from the bulkhead, on the one that
was denied the distance from the bulkhead was
applied for at 22 feet. On the new Notice
it's 22 feet, so distance from the bulkhead
remains the same, correct?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I would ask the Board
to look at that because we -- the reason I --
cause I went and spoke to Pat Conklin at the
Building Department and said we're not
changing the deck, it's the same deck.
She said, yeah, but I want to include it all
as part of the same Notice of Disapproval
because you may, in granting the second floor,
which is at a more conforming front yard
setback, the distance of the second floor from
the bulkhead is 35.9, almost 40 feet. That's
really -- that's the area we're changing. The
deck in the back is the same deck.
On the first application if you had to
raise the house you had to raise the deck to
meet the floor of the raised house. Since we
don't have to raise the house, the deck is
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exactly the same. The trellis, whether or not
that would constitute an increase, the
Building Department prefers to include it
rather than exclude it and it's up to the
Board whether we can have a fan or not,
trellis.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, Pat, the copy of
the survey that you submitted with your
memorandum here shows a distance from the deck
to the high water mark of 24.5 feet.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: Extrapolating the width
of the bulkhead, I believe that's where it
comes up with this around 22 feet.
MRS. MOORE: And probably I think that
the steps down maybe as well.
MEMBER HORNING: So I'm trying to get
what the difference is between this
application and the one that was denied
remains the same, correct?
MRS. MOORE: This application the
distance to the bulkhead remains at 35.9 for
the second floor of the house. If that's --
if what I'm answering --
MEMBER HORNING: That's not what the
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Notice of Disapproval says.
MRS. MOORE: Ail right, I can't control
what a Disapproval says. The Building
Department prefers to include everything.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, the second thing
here item, lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: The new notice says lot
coverage reduced from 27 percent to 24.5.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: The other application
that was denied called for lot coverage of
30.5 --
MRS. MOORE:
difference.
MEMBER HORNING:
that?
So that's clearly a
-- you would agree with
MRS. MOORE: Oh absolutely. Well, that's
clearly a difference, yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: Side yard, the new
application calls for combined side yard
setbacks of 24.3 feet, which is just a little
bit under the Code requirement and the
decision that was denied called for a combined
side yard setback of 23.5, which is 1 foot
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less than approximately -- in other words, the
new denial increases the side yard setback
about one foot; would you agree with that?
MRS. MOORE: I actually don't agree. I
mean I agree that that's what they say, but I
would point out that our second floor is at
conforming 12 -- well, more than 12.3 cause
the second floor is not over the garage. I'm
using the 12.3 from the garage when you need
10 and you have 12, that means that you have
conformity on the right side, and on the left
side the deck was at 12.3. We're cutting the
deck back and the house addition, the second
floor is at 19.5. So 19 is more than 15, so
we're conforming with the minimum 15. So I
would say that I don't think we needed a
variance for the second floor on side yard
issues, but again the Building Department
tries to be as conservative as possible. Once
you're here for variances they prefer not to
make the determination on whether or not
cutting the deck back or it requires a
variance or not because it had already a
variance, a side yard variance in 1985 when it
got the deck. It was allowed to be at 12.3,
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if you recall the prior decision, but when --
if you granted an approval here, you're
actually modifying the previous appeal in that
we're reducing that 12.3. We still have it
towards the back, but we're actually cutting
back some of it so it overrides in a sense the
design that was approved in '85.
So I think the Building Department felt
that it had been part of a variance, we're
cutting it back, surely, so -- but it made
sense to cover it all because when I -- once
you approve or if you approve this, we have to
come back to them with a building plan that
conforms and we don't want to have any
misinterpretations of what was allowed, what
wasn't allowed. It's easier if it's just all
shown at once and we, you know, we go from
there.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay one further
question.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Front yard setback. The
latest Notice of Disapproval, the substance in
your appeal here calls for a front yard
setback of 28.6 feet. The application that
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was denied you were requesting front yard
setback of 22 feet. Tell us what changed in
terms of the front.
MRS. MOORE: From the first application?
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's what I -- we
changed -- there is a bow window. You see
that little pop-out where it says, "paved
driveway" on the survey?
MEMBER HORNING: I see that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay,
That's the bow window,
We're not changing the
that is cut back.
so that's cut back.
front of the house
at
all. The first plan had architectural
elements to try to change the design of the
front facade. That's not being done here and
the changes, again we're cutting back from
existing. That window is popped out and the
second floor is the only additional space, and
the second floor starts at 28.6. That's the
setback, front yard setback of 28.6. Do you
see that measurement on the right hand side?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: That's the foundation.
That's where the front yard starts, but again
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I point out that when you look at the average
setback as the Code says, when you're going to
-- let's say you're building a house and you
have within 300 feet everybody in your
neighborhood is at 20 feet, you can build your
house at 20 feet because that's the way the
neighborhood has built out and the Code
specifically says that. When we apply an
average setback here we could go as close to
the front yard to the street as 24.5 and we're
not. We're actually cutting back and we're
going up.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thanks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me follow up on
this for a minute, in a nutshell one of the
most dramatic differences, as you said Pat,
rightly so, the first application that led to
denial was for a demo.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And this new Notice
of Disapproval in addition to the things we've
already gone over is describing this as
reconstruction and second floor addition.
Now, the architect's plans show what new
construction on the walls on the first floor
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
are being proposed and what is to remain.
There is also a letter on record --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- indicating that
there was a visual inspection.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, I would like
to find out a little bit more about what the
visual inspection entailed. It's very
difficult without ripping into sheetrock,
without digging up to see the condition of the
foundation.
MRS. MOORE: Actually, we cut the
sheetrock, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMJ%N: Then that's what I
want to find out more about because clearly
one of the most important aspects here is the
fact that this first floor will remain because
it is not described as additions and
alterations, it's described as reconstruction
and that term may very well mean demo and
rebuilding in place and in kind; it has been
known to be defined that way. So I'd like the
record to clearly reflect exactly what kind of
changes on the first floor are being proposed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
I know the removal of the bay window, cutting
back of the existing deck and so on.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There are a couple
of pieces of bearing wall that are being
changed, it would appear, east and westerly
walls look as though they're intact. So
perhaps, Angel, do you want to come and talk a
little bit about
here?
MRS. MOORE:
MR. CHORiqO:
this structural analysis
Yes, come on up.
We are removing the kitchen,
the wall in front of the entrance and pushing
that wall to allow the kitchen to be larger,
but that's -- we keep one of the existing
walls of that kitchen. Now, in the porch
where you see dark, that's the pieces that we
are changing to make a recessed porch. We are
modifying the bathroom wall to accommodate the
stair, which is a new stair. The existing
stair is in the back and that is being removed
and we put the new stairs in the front. We
close where the shower is, it's an existing
shower, the bathroom remains as is. Modernize
the kitchen, that's about it.
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Then we change windows and put doors and
this and that, that's where the other dark
pieces show because we have to cut in order to
increase the window and to patch the windows
and that's about it. The bedroom number 1
remains exactly as it is. Laundry, mechanical
both, garage is all as is. We're not changing
that. The kitchen is the only area that we
are renovating.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The floor plans do
-- are very clear, you know, in terms of what
you're actually doing with partition walls and
weight-bearing walls. I want to know about
the structural condition of the foundation
because that was a big issue before, so let's
look at how you went about analyzing that it
has -- you indicated in your letter that
inspection showed the foundation was in good
condition and it only needed possibly some
enlargement for a cavity for insulation
purposes. Can you amplify that?
MR. CHORNO: Yes. The first floor has 2
by 4s like all the properties of the time. We
have to increase the size of that putting an
additional 2 inches to the 2 by 4s or put in a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
2 by 6 next to the 2 by 4s in order to
accommodate more insulation, but the 2 by 4s
are in good condition. I've been doing jobs
here where you open the walls and they are all
rotten.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, exactly.
MR. CHORNO: This is not the case in this
house, for what I could inspect there and
look, I didn't take the drywall, I didn't
take. So it looks like it's in good condition
and maybe the owner can verify that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Did you actually
remove some sheetrock to inspect the condition
of the studs?
MR. CHORNO: Yes, we did that. The
father came with me and we go into the
(inaudible) and we cut and I looked to see if
it was rotten or not because I've been having
these surprises often enough so that's what I
want to know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Especially on the
water. So you can sister studs to the
existing?
MR. CHORNO: Yes, they are good studs and
we can use that for construction purpose, it's
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no problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. While you're
still there let me just look --
MR. CHORNO: So in order to be more
acceptable, we cut the height of the old
structure considerably. We're doing some
trick in the second floor to get dormers and
to get the walls at 5 feet in order to change
the height that was like 38 feet to 26 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: For the roof.
MR. CHORNO: So the overall from the
ground outside to the top of the roof is only
26 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's to the
ridge.
MR. CHORNO:
MRS. MOORE:
failed to point
Yes.
George, you were asking.
that out,, that's another
I
change that from the first application to this
one is an overall reduction in the height and
mass of the second floor that's what he's
talking about.
MR. CHORNO: A substantial --
MEMBER HORNING: That's understood, but
the Notice of Disapproval is --
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MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) sorry.
MEMBER HORNING: -- it doesn't address
that.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MR. CHORNO: So that's all I can tell
you. I cannot --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. CHORNO: -- guarantee anything in the
(inaudible) of the structure. (Inaudible) I
don't know, I can go there and try to
investigate as much as I can with the
cooperation of the owner and that's about it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's the
foundation, poured or block?
MR. CHORNO: Block.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and were you
able to inspect it, did you dig?
MR. CHORNO: Yeah, but (inaudible)
because it's a flood zone. So it's not a real
problem to look at the foundation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Did you want to say
something? One other question before we get
to that. Just so it's clear, your plans show
the proposed trellis, I believe that's why it
was noticed at 22 feet because that's another
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structure. The deck, you know, that's an
addition on top of the deck being proposed so
that is why that was noticed at 22 feet from
the bulkhead because that is where the deck is
and the trellis you're proposing will be in
addition to that.
MRS. MOORE: It's not a roofed --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's two gables --
well, I'm about to clarify. According to the
plans and the elevations,
open raft --
MR. CHORNO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
you're proposing
-- two gables --
MR. CHOP/qO: Yes, it's a true trellis.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- but it is just
open, a (inaudible).
MR. CHORNO: Right. Right, the purpose
is to support fans, not create shade.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right.
MR. VENETIS: To tell you the truth, if
the first floor structure and the foundation
were in question, we wouldn't be able to -- it
would -- we would value ourselves right out of
this project. We couldn't afford to rebuild
the first floor and do a new foundation or
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raise the home and it was one of the best
things that we found out that we didn't have
to raise the structure or knock down the first
floor and we can just add an addition cause we
couldn't afford to do it any other way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Venetis, have
you also spoken, I think I overhead you, I'd
like to enter it into the record, you've
spoken to a contractor?
MR. VENETIS: I've spoken to three
contractors and did get three proposed costs
for what was on the drawings, like a
preliminary bid based on. We would probably
hire a local company to do the extension and
do anything related to the exterior of the
home and I would probably take on the interior
myself because that's what I do for a living
and I think that I would probably cost me a
lot less to do it myself on the inside.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure and you have
four little helpers.
MR. VENETIS: No I don't, just the
demolition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We don't want
demolition really. Don't use the D-word.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. VENETIS: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anybody
else in the audience that would like to
address this application?
Okay, we're going to be receiving
comments as you recognized in the beginning,
Pat, from the Land Preservation Committee that
is going to be meeting on August 31st and you
also had a report you wanted to submit to us
from a consultant.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I apologize. It's
vacation time for everybody, so that's
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: You know what, I
think the easiest thing to do is to adjourn
this to October at 1:00 and that way --
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, October what?
BOARD SECRETARY: 21st because otherwise
it's September -- I don't know if that's
enough time for everybody to
MRS. MOORE: Oh, for me
in the next two weeks, so --
respond and --
it should be done
BOARD SECRETARY: What about Landmark?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MRS. MOORE: They're meeting on Tuesday.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Land Preservation
is meeting on August 31st so they can get
comments and they're usually pretty quick.
BOARD SECRETARY: All right, it's
September 23rd --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's leave it to
October.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: We're just so
jammed up. 1:00 --
MRS. MOORE: My client's okay with it, so
I'm okay with it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're not going to
start building right now anyway. October 21st
MRS. MOORE: You said at 1:007
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 1:00 p.m., all
right.
So hearing no further comments, I'm going
to make a motion to adjourn this hearing to
October 21st at 1:00 p.m.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6379 - Orient Fire District
(T-Mobile Northeast, LLC)
(Adjourned from May 20, 2010 PH)
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-70(i) based on an application for building
permit to co-locate on existing wireless
communication tower and install equipment, and
the Building Inspector's August 13, 2009,
amended December 8, 2009 updated March 4, 2010
Notice of Disapproval concerning co-location
of wireless communication tower,, 1) tower
exceeding the code required maximum height of
45 feet and the prior height granted of 90
feet; at 23300 Main Rd. and Tabor Rd., Orient,
NEW YORK. SCTRM#1000-18-5-13.8. Zone R80."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to open
this hearing because it was legally noticed
and see if there is anyone here who wishes to
testify, but we have received a letter
requesting adjournment without a date from the
applicant because they are going to be
revising their application based upon
material, some (inaudible) and material that
are going to be submitted based on comments
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from the Planning Board and the Planning
Board's consultant. So let me just see if --
Is there anyone here who wishes to
address this application?
Okay, hearing no comments, I'll make a
motion to adjourn this hearing without a date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING ~6383
(adjourned from June
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq:
Sim Moy
30, 2010 PH)
We have received
some information, I think it was as of today,
yesterday or today.
BOARD SECRETARY: Yesterday.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yesterday from West
Lake Association and
yesterday or today?
BOARD SECRETARY:
-- was this also
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we got two
reports from them and certainly this Board has
not had a chance to read it and really go
through it, but I just want you to be aware of
that and we'll take testimony now.
Would you please, I presume you're here
to present.
MR. ROSENBERG: Madame Chairperson,
members of the Board, my name is David
Rosenberg. I appeared last time the hearing
was held, which was on June 30tn. The Board
I'm sure recalls that at the last hearing we
submitted pretty much a complete application
and there were two concerns presented by the
board members. I believe it was Member
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Goehringer who expressed some concern about
the road specification for the extension of
West Lake Drive to the new residence.
Following discussion with the Board, Mr.
Fischetti our engineer did, in fact, consult
with a Town Engineer and following that
meeting he sent a letter, which should be in
your package now. I believe
14tn of this year, if not, I
believe you already have it.
it's dated July
have a copy, but I
It's on Mr.
Fischetti's letterhead as a professional
engineer confirming his conversation with Mr.
Richter that in regard to the specification
for the road that the proposed 6-inch thick,
3/4-inch stone blend roadway surface for the
12-foot wide roadway would be adequate to
support emergency vehicles to comply with
Section 280-137A subdivision E, as Mr.
Goehringer had inquired about. So I think
that should pretty much deal with that issue.
The other issue which was discussed was
the question that there was some concern that
the site plan as originally presented could
require a person driving a vehicle to the new
residence to actually have to back out along
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the driveway to the extension of West Lake
Road and there was a suggestion that maybe we
could come up with some sort of turnaround
area and Mr. Fischetti has amended the site
plan. I believe that was also submitted to
the Board and, again, if there are any
questions about that, Mr. Fischetti is here.
That also is dated July 14, 2010 and it does
show as to the extension of West Lake Drive
and the stone driveway a turnaround area was
added to the immediate -- I guess depending on
where you're looking, but if you're facing the
front of the house it would be just to the
right off the driveway so that a vehicle could
be parked there and if they want to depart
from the house they can back up into the area
of the stone driveway along the side of the
house and proceed or they can park closest to
that stairway into the side of the house and
if they were going to leave they would back
into the new turnaround area and they can
proceed out.
So those are the only two concerns that
the Board had and I believe that was the
purpose of adjourning the hearing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
I have Mr. Fischetti here who did the
design work, but Madame Chairperson, I am
aware of some submissions that were made, but
that not being -- I'm certainly not going to
volunteer any arguments or address them until
they're formally made before the Board. So
with the permission of the Board, unless you
have any questions on these two points, I at
this time have nothing else to present;
however, of course I would like to reserve, as
is the custom of this Board, that if there is
any opposition or any other comments submitted
I'll have an opportunity to address them at
that time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Certainly.
MR. ROSENBERG: Chairperson, just confirm
you have both of these, the letter from Mr.
Fischetti to the engineer and -- I want to
make sure they're part of the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I believe so.
MR. ROSENBERG: I believe they were
submitted many weeks ago.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We got them. This
is the plan, there's a cover letter and then
there is a letter confirming a discussion with
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
the Town Engineer.
MR. ROSENBERG: Right. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so George do
you want to continue to ask any questions or
shall we see what else comes up?
MEMBER HORNING: Let's continue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have received
information from West Lake Association and
from E.D. Bennett Consulting Engineer.
Counsel, do you have copies of this recent?
MR. ROSENBERG: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, fine.
I think it would be a good idea to maybe
get comments from all interested parties
before we continue to question; is that
acceptable to the Board or do you have a
question?
Jim, do you have a question you want to
ask?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, not at all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody else? All
right, let's see who else is here and would
like to address this application. Who' like
to address the Board?
MR. TARBET: Good afternoon. My name is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
John Tarbet,
Amagansett.
before you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
name, please?
MR. TARBET:
A-R, B as in boy,
Tarbet (inaudible) law firm in
This is my first time appearing
Can you spell your
The last name is Tarbet, T-
E-T.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. TARBET: We were working until
yesterday (inaudible) and I'm like permission
to hand in to you (inaudible)
have multiple copies of it.
everybody.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
materials. I
I have copies for
MR. ROSENBERG: (Inaudible).
MR. TARBET: There's two things I'm
submitting. One is the report by the engineer
and the other is my memo of law, both of which
were emailed to the applicant, nothing is
change.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so you have
copies. We've already received that, let me
just double check here.
MEMBER HORNING: Leslie, no. This one is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Memorandum of law I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
think is not (inaudible).
MR. TARBET: I don't believe I ever
handed the memo of law in until just now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, this
memorandum of law is today?
MR. TARBET: Today.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, did you
give counsel a copy?
MR. TARBET: An original copy.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Okay, so now we are
(inaudible).
Keeping us busy with the reading, folks.
All right, please proceed.
MR. TARBET: Yeah, my name is John Tarbet
and I am here actually representing the West
Lake Association. The application is
particularly important to them because their
riparian rights to access Little Peconic Bay
and the major concern of the Association is
the bulkhead. The -- our engineer has gone to
the property, inspected the bulkhead, and
there is a legitimate concern that the
bulkhead will collapse if the project goes
forward.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
It's primarily the driveway that is less
than 2 feet -- less than 1 foot from the
bulkhead is a concern. There's a concern with
the traffic on the already loose soils and the
already deteriorated bulkhead will cause that
bulkhead to collapse. If that bulkhead were
to collapse, it would be catastrophic to the
environmental and access to the inlet as well
as to the environmental concern of access to
Little Peconic Bay to residents.
As you know there's a (inaudible) it's a
benefit to the applicant and a detriment to
the neighborhood. In this case, the detriment
is clear cut. Access to Little Peconic Bay,
if that bulkhead were to collapse, it would be
at least a year possibly longer before they
were able to get the proper permits to get the
bulkhead replaced so we're asking the Board to
consider requiring the applicant to simply
bring the bulkhead up to what would be
considered strong enough to support the
proposed construction. We're not asking the
Board to not grant the variances, we're asking
for the Board to consider the detriment and
require the bulkhead be brought up to proper
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
standards.
I have Drew Bennett here. He's in the
audience I'd like for him to come up and talk
to you about his inspection and what he saw
and when he went to the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Please come
forward.
MR. BENNETT: Good afternoon. My name is
Drew Bennett, consulting engineer doing
business at 84A Park Place
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
last name.
in East Hampton.
Please spell your
MR. BENNETT: B-E-N-N-E-T-T.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: Thank you.
MR. BENNETT: I've been practicing for 26
years professionally, the last 18 years on
Long Island and in the tri-state area. I
currently serve as the village Engineer for
the Village of Sagaponack and the Village of
East Hampton. I'm also currently under
retainer with the Town of Shelter Island, the
village of North Haven, as well as the Town of
East Hampton.
I was retained by the community
association that Mr. Tarbet referenced, West
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Lake Community Association, to perform an
inspection of the subject bulkhead. The
purpose of the inspection is to basically make
an assessment of its condition and how -- and
make a prediction of how it would perform once
the proposed project was constructed.
I performed the inspection on August 18th
at low tide. I conducted it both from the
water side with the aid of Dr. (Inaudible)
boat as well as on the land side. I met the
applicant's engineer, Mr. Fischetti, at the
property. We had a discussion of what to do
about the bulkhead, the history of it, and how
it was constructed.
what I observed was a conventional timber
bulkhead that was in fair condition. It shows
its age, which we estimate to be about 30-40
years old. It's been recently replanked as
sand was beginning to flow through the timber
bulkhead and it was planked on the landward
side of it to try to minimize that. Once sand
begins to run through the bulkhead that's
beginning to fail and not serve its function.
The original face of the bulkhead is actually
in quite poor condition and there's planking
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
on the landward side of it. There still is
evidence on the landward side with what they
call piping through the bulkhead, which is
basically sand running through the bulkhead
even after the planking has been replaced.
Most of the critical components of this
bulkhead are not visible so you can't inspect
them. The piles themselves I have no
knowledge of what the depth is, how long they
are. I asked Mr. Fischetti if he knew and he
can speak to this, but my recollection of our
conversation is he did not have the design
details of the construction (inaudible)
installed. So I don't know how deep the piles
are, I don't know how deep the planking goes
into the mud of the channel I don't how long
or what the condition of this (inaudible) of
soil (inaudible) that particular bulkhead.
I can tell you that the piles themselves
are relatively small and, as I mentioned
earlier, the bulkhead age is estimated to be
between 30 and 40 years. So in sum the
existing condition is fair. In my judgment it
continues to serve its intended function which
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
was to stabilize the inlet that's there and
provide water circulation and navigation.
Looking forward to how it would perform
based on the proposed project, I have some
reservations and those reservations are that
there are three aspects that I looked at of
the proposed project. One is the driveway
and basically the house, those two aspects.
The house is far enough from the
bulkhead. It would be set on a timber-pile
foundation and in my judgment will not have an
affect on the bulkhead itself; however, the
driveway, based on the plans that I have is
located as close as 2 feet from the timber-
pile bulkhead that we're talking about and
that would create additional load on the
bulkhead and we'll call it a surcharge load.
I looked at the size of the timber planking
existing timber pile dimensions and the height
of the pile and the number of tie backs that I
observed and I made an estimate of whether or
not -- a very preliminary estimate because
again I don't know all the specifics of how
this thing was constructed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
It's an adequately constructed bulkhead
for the condition, assuming that all the
materials are in good condition, but in my --
based on my preliminary estimates, it's
probably not suitable for what I refer to as a
surcharge load or additional load placed on it
other than the native material. I -- the
ground that's near the bulkhead is soft and
basically wouldn't -- at this point in time,
wouldn't support a car (inaudible) bulkhead
face.
I personally would have very deep
reservations about parking a loaded truck next
to the bulkhead or a fuel truck and so I --
engineers tend to be safe. The public health,
safety of the public is our number one
priority and, in my judgment, there's not
enough knowledge of the true condition of the
bulkhead and I don't think there's enough
(inaudible) safety on this particular bulkhead
in its condition that would be prudent to
allow traffic or heavy trucks to park near it.
So if it does fail, I think as Mr. Tarbet
pointed out, several bad things could happen.
One, people could get injured as I also point
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
out in my report, which is dated August 20tn
that the bulkhead is flush with the ground and
the driveway is going to be 2 feet from it.
At a minimum you'd want to have a guardrail so
that people wouldn't go off the end of it.
So in my opinion, it's risky to allow
traffic to park next to this bulkhead and I
find it to be a risk that the consequences of
that risk being the bulkhead collapse,
(inaudible) to navigation and heaven forbid
someone be harmed or injured. There are some
very serious consequences if this fails.
MEMBER HORNING: You're testifying here
based upon the driveway being put on the
existing grade and just stones being put on
top of the existing grade; is that what you're
basing your remarks upon or the change of
grade?
MR. BENNETT: I would assume that the
grade is changed. The bulkhead isn't going to
be raised so we have a fixed point in time and
there'll be a slope. So the way the contours
are drawn you'll see that it's a relatively
flat slope. If there was a lot of fill the
runoff would go directly into the dug inlet
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
itself. So I would assume that they would
prepare the driveway and the standard
construction would be that there would be a
sub-base and some sort of permeable pavement
on top of that, but the piping -- I did see
signs of active piping meaning sand running
through the bulkhead and so I would expect
that the sub-base would only last so long
before you'd see similar effects within the
driveway itself and I also point out in my
report that correcting, once sand piping
starts like that, correcting that is actually
a challenge. The practice is to continually
try to patch it and it works for a while and
then it fails somewhere else or the patch
fails and really the only way to really
prevent that entirely is to replace the
bulkhead in its entirety, in my opinion.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a question. If
you had the construction plans of this
bulkhead --
MR. BENNETT: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- would you think you
would still come to the same conclusion,
regardless of the depth and the piling --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MR. BENNETT: I have no idea what the
conclusion would be if I had the construction
plans. I'm making some assumptions of what
the standard practice, construction practices
are here on eastern Long Island.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. BENNETT: knd it's difficult for me
to see the condition of the foot pile tips
cause they're underground or under water. It
would help me tighten my prediction, but it
would still be a prediction.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, what you've been
witnessing is -- would you call it failure of
the bulkhead?
MR. BENNETT: It's beginning to fail,
yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Beginning to fail, so
regardless of what construction drawings were
or are, the condition still exists.
MR. BENNETT: It's a tired bulkhead.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. BENNETT: A tired bulkhead and I also
point out in my report that the next major
coastal storm that we have where we have beach
overtopping, I would not be surprised if the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
bulkhead collapses or failed in that type of
event without the construction. The next time
we have a major storm surge and wave action
overtopping the bulkhead, once water gets
behind the bulkhead it's quite harming to the
bulkhead. The piles themselves show ice
damage, they also show decay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to ask you
if the house as currently proposed on pilings
is proposed with an easterly side yard setback
of 10 feet and the water service is coming in
along that property line. If the house were
moved over an additional 5 feet toward the
westerly side toward the bulkhead, the dug
canal I'm talking about, and a driveway was
located on the easterly side of the subject
property, would that possibly create a more
appropriate response to the problem -- I also
think it's frankly quite dangerous simply from
a human safety point of view to be parking a
vehicle in the dark a foot away from a canal.
You know, if the house were -- I mean we want
to keep property as far away from bulkhead as
we can, obviously, so it's a bit of a
conundrum to be suggesting moving it closer to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
a bulkhead; however one does need to be able
to get off of that right of way and bring a
vehicle on to the property, if a dwelling is
to be there. What is your reaction to that
proposal?
MR. BENNETT: Moving the house closer to
the dug canal and putting a driveway on the
opposite side of the house --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: About 5 feet.
MR. BENNETT: Yeah, the house as its
intended right now would be on a timber-pile
foundation so this load would no have an
affect on the bulkhead, in my opinion. Moving
the driveway further from the bulkhead would
address my concern that I raised of having a
(inaudible) load next to an old bulkhead. The
only question that I would have as a technical
person is in reviewing the soil data, the
soils, the site is a dredge spoils site, in my
opinion, and below the dredge spoil is bog.
So it's an old marsh, but it's been buried.
So doing some quick calculations of what the
likely depth of those piles are before they
get to competent ground they're going to be
quite deep. So in my report I also suggest
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that they probably ought to do a test pile to
make sure that they have the expected bearing
capacity with respect. So assuming the ground
is good where they move it, and they can get
the piles (inaudible) to the house, that would
be an option.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. The other
issue that the Association had some concerns
about was the use of the Association's right
of way for a creation of a pervious driveway
and by moving the driveway of the residence
onto the easterly side it would certainly get
rid of the necessity of using that, at least
that part of the right of way for access to
the subject property. So that's another thing
for us to look at.
Do any of you have any questions of this
Okay, we may want to question you
further. Who else would like to speak now on
behalf of this application?
MR. BENNETT: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This gentlemen here.
MR. HENRY: Is this working?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
raise it a little so you don't have to kill
your neck while you're standing there?
MR. KAMINER: Thank you. Thank you. I'm
Henry Kaminer, I'm secretary of the
Association and the -- I sent you pictures
pertaining to the conditions and what has been
discussed is the plans, how it will be built
and a few people on both sides of the argument
have talked about grading and how it will be
graded, but I -- and the actual diagrams of
the building plans show grading, but I don't
think that that's possible because on July 22nd
a year ago when the Trustees gave the
permission for the building, and you have that
in your kit, they said that it could be built
with a buffer 4-foot wide, etc., but no
grading of the property, no fill or other
material placed on the property with the
exception of the amount necessary for the
sanitary system as approved by the Health
Department. So that anything that would
require grading I don't think would be
permitted. So that makes it complicated.
Anything requiring grading would not be
permitted so I don't know how that could be
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
done if you include grading as a necessary
part.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: knyone else?
MR. SCHAB: I'm David Schab, I'm Henry's
son-in-law. I just also wanted to add that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please spell your
name.
MR. SCHAB:
also (inaudible)
S-C-H-A-B, David Schab. That
that members also consider
that not only do emergency vehicles have to
get onto the bulkhead, but also the dredging
machinery also periodically is brought up near
there, I believe, and we need to make sure
that there's room for that and that the
bulkhead can support the dredging machinery
that goes along the right of way. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're welcome.
Anyone else like to address this
application?
Counsel, do you have any comments or -- I
see people busy back there talking perhaps if
they want to consult. Did you want to consult
with each other?
MR. ROSENBERG: No. Madame Chairman, I
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
think I've heard enough and I'm prepared to
respond and my experts are certainly here
prepared to respond as well.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: Madame Chairperson, if I
seem somewhat frustrated it's because of the
continual opposition that the neighbors of
Mrs. Moy have done to try to frustrate this
project, particularly Mr. Kaminer who, when he
looks out of his second floor bedroom window
now sees over the property and has a beautiful
view of the bay, but that is not a basis for
this Board to deny the relief sought.
I also see that Mr. Kaminer submitted a
letter on the West Lake Road Association
letterhead and, yet, there are people that I
know who are part of that association who have
never gotten notice of a meeting and were
never informed that the Association was taking
any meeting to determine whether or not the
Association or its officers have the authority
to represent themselves as being part of an
Association action.
Members of the Board I'd also like to --
I do this with all due respect and I will
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certainly respond to these issues, but it may
be as an exercise of caution as an attorney
and to preserve my rights and to preserve the
record. I would also like to say that it is
of my opinion as an attorney -- I've been
doing this for 25 years -- that the objections
that have been raised and I will address them
are totally irrelevant to your proceedings.
You are a Board of Zoning Appeals you have the
power to interpret the Code. You have the
power to grant variances. You certainly have
the power to condition the grant of that
authority; however, this is a prior
nonconforming parcel. This parcel was created
as a legal building lot years before the Code
was in effect. It is an application for, I
think, two or perhaps three area variances.
What this Board should be looking at are the
factors set forth in the Town Code, which I
addressed the last time.
For example, whether it is self-created,
which we know it is not. Whether or not this
is the minimum application for a variance that
we can make and still have some use of our
property. Whether this changes the character
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of the neighborhood, which it certainly does
not as all the other homes around West Lake
and more importantly, if you look at all the
other homes fronting along Peconic Bay, not
one of them satisfy the existing Code
requirement and there is a document, which we
put in last time, that shows that a requested
variance that we have puts the rear of our
house no closer to Peconic Bay than the other
properties that appear along that aerial
photograph which we have.
In fact, it is ironic to me that if you
look at the brief submitted to counsel, in the
very first paragraph of his brief and perhaps
those of you who want to just take a look at
it the memorandum of law in the fourth line he
agrees that the Moy property is unique in that
it has water frontage on Little Peconic Bay
and on a dug inlet that provides access to
West Lake. Well, what is the very standard of
practical difficulty which is what you have to
determine for an area variance. One of them
and the main one is the uniqueness of the
property; they're conceding it's unique.
They're conceding that this lot exists as a
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legal lot before the code was in effect.
There's no question in my mind that as far as
the application for area variances go we have
established the requirements under the Town
Code.
Again, I will address their issues, but I
want to make it very clear and I want to
preserve the record that whether or not the
bulkhead is structurally sound or not goes to
the engineering, it goes to whether or not the
building engineer or the Town Engineer will
approve the drawing, it will go to whether or
not our professional or structural engineer
will seal the drawings when they apply for a
building permit, but it has nothing to do with
whether this Board has a consideration as an
engineering opinion as to whether or not the
bulkhead is stable.
Now, let me talk about Mr. Bennett's so
called report. Again, and if the Board would
like to follow along I'd be happy to show you
some of the things which concern me about the
credibility of his testimony. If you look on
page 3 of his report, which he says is his
assessment, three minutes after he describes
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the facts, but now he's expressing some
opinion.
Number one, it says, ~The subject
bulkhead is old, but in fair condition." So
the only difference we have right now between
Mr. Fischetti and Mr. Bennett is whether it is
good or fair. They both concede it is not
perfect. None of them concede it is poor or
bad. Kit has received periodic maintenance,"
continuing on page 3, ~and was designed
consistent with local construction practices.
In my opinion, it continues to adequately
serve its function of maintaining the dug
inlet." So Mr. Bennett in his professional
opinion is saying that it was designed and,
therefore, approved with local construction
practices at the time. Now he's saying he
wants to uncover the pilings, he wants to do
geo-technical reports. Well, you know what,
if he was retained as an expert if he wanted
to do those reports, he could have. If he
chose not to, there is no reason to put that
burden on the applicant.
The second point of his assessment is
that the new planking is in good condition,
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agrees with what Mr. Fischetti said. If you
look at the bottom of the third point, it
says, "This development is in close proximity
to the bulkhead," and he's describing the
proposed structure. It says, Kin my opinion,
the location of the house will not result in a
surcharge of the bulkhead." Now today he was
equivocating on that and I guess he didn't
want to say something which he could not
professionally support, but he certainly tried
to equivocate from what was in his own letter.
It says, "The construction and location of the
house will not result in a surcharge," which
to me is the load bearing nature of the house
~on the bulkhead." So he's talking about the
driveway and the landscaping. He's worried
apparently that the weight of the landscaping
may have some load on the bulkhead which will
cause a catastrophic failure.
Number five, "Very preliminary
calculations suggest that the bulkhead is not
adequate to support the loads from cars and
trucks and landscaping." I don't know what
preliminary calculations were, but if I am an
engineer and certainly our engineer has
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actually done those calculations. Our
engineer is a structural engineer. Our
engineer would have gave his opinion based
upon calculations and he's prepared to defend
those calculations to this Board. I don't
know what very preliminary calculations
without any other authority or any other
explanation of that means.
Number ten, "I am not able to determine
the type of landscape proposed along the
subject bulkhead. I am concerned that when
these plantings mature they may interfere with
navigation in the channel." Now I am not an
engineer, I don't know if anybody on this
Board is an engineer, but I can't fathom how
you make that conclusion and have any
credibility as a professional engineer by
saying that the type of landscaping on the
landward side of the bulkhead on top of the
and landward of the bulkhead when it matures
will affect the navigation in the channel.
Number twelve, Kin my opinion, the risk
of bulkhead failure is blockage of the inlet,
which would prohibit navigation and restrict
tidal circulation." The only type of failure
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he could be talking about would be a
catastrophic failure. My client has
maintained that bulkhead. The piles have been
there for 40 years and they have not moved.
Those piles have been there for in excess of
40 years and that bulkhead is still there. It
is either in fair or good condition. It still
adequately performs its function and when I
say fair or good, again I'm emphasizing that
both engineers say it is not bad or poor.
I think that Mr. Bennett in his report
was a little bit more candid than he was
today, but certainly if there's nothing there
that should have this Board consider those
factors and again Mr. Fischetti will actually
address them, but I think that the Board
should know that.
The other thing I just want to raise, Mr.
Kaminer made some or maybe it was the son-in-
law, made some comment about the grading
perhaps violating the conditions of the Town
permit. I can assure you Mr. Fischetti will
again confirm today that the plan as
submitted, the only fill we are bringing in
there is to elevate the property the minimum
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amount required for the Health Department
permit for the sanitary system and no other
grading and no other fill will be presented.
At this point, I would like to ask Mr.
Fischetti to address the more technical
natures of their objections, but again it's
with reserving my right, with all due respect
to the Board, and I am going to present that
that I don't think that that is relevant at
all to the issue of an area variance for a
prior nonconforming parcel for an area
variance.
Again, I believe last time I submitted
the curriculum vitae of Mr. Fischetti. I
think the Board also indicated familiarity
with him and has previously heard his
testimony as an expert, so I won't bother
going through that again.
MR. FISCHETTI: Good afternoon. I'm Joe
fischetti.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Good afternoon.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Good afternoon.
MR. FISCHETTI: Mr. Bennett is a very
competent and capable engineer and I'm glad
that he was there. I met him on the site when
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
we looked at -- when he was over looking at
the Moy bulkhead. You have some new documents
that just came in. I did review both Mr.
Bennett's report and the attorney's
description that actually took Mr. Bennett's
report. Lots of words, a lot of comments, but
there's really -- as engineers we need to be
very simple. There is really only two words
that we need to look at and analyze. Sound
and failure.
Those two words are important today
because they've been used -- one of them has
been used often. When I look at houses or
structures, if you look at a roofline that's
been framed with 2 by 4s and it has a sag in
it, that 2 by 4 and that roof structure has
failed, but it hasn't collapsed. It's not
doing the job that it was intended to.
If you have a floor joist that undersized
and you put your lumber and your load or you
put your furniture on there and you walk on it
you may find that the floor is not level.
That has failed possibly in accordance with
building code, which is one way of failure or
it's failed because it's not producing or it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
not doing the job it's supposed to do. So
that piece of lumber has failed, but it has
not collapsed. The job of the bulkhead is to
hold the lateral load of the soil. That's its
job. It is to hold the lateral load of the
soil. If the bulkhead has moved, it has
failed if it hasn't handled that lateral load.
Now, Mr. Bennett was out there for an
hour and a half with his 3-foot level and in
his report you'll see that he says that it's -
- it has movement from one-quarter of an inch.
He actually looked at it from one-quarter of
an inch to three inches. So his report says
that there's some non-level -- the bulkhead is
out of level from a quarter of an inch to
three inches. Nowhere in that report does Mr.
Bennett say that that bulkhead has failed.
Actually, what I would say today is that
that bulkhead is in structurally sound
condition. I'm a Board Certified structural
engineer and there's not a person in this room
today who will refute what I just said. That
bulkhead is in structurally sound condition.
It is doing the job, actually Mr. Bennett says
that in his number one, which was brought out
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
to you. Number one on his assessment, "It has
received periodic maintenance. It was
designed consistent with local practices and
in my opinion it continually and adequately
serves its function of maintaining the inlet."
(AUDIENCE MEMBER SPEAKING IN BACKGROUND
AI~D MR. FISCHETTI LISTENS TO WHAT HE SAYS, BUT
IT IS INDISCERNIBLE TO THE TYPIST.)
MR. FISCHETTI: Let me -- let's give some
history here. I spoke to Mr. Moy. This
bulkhead, when you talk about piping or sands
filtering through, this bulkhead was repaired
by Costello 8-10 years ago. The way Mr.
Costello repaired this bulkhead was he dug out
the back of the wall completely. He exposed
all the ties, he exposed all the dead men, he
put filter mesh in the back, he put tongue and
groove planking in, backfilled it. Now, Mr.
Costello inspected all those tiebacks. They
are -- they're all galvanized 1-inch tiebacks.
Mr. Costello would not have allowed any rotted
tiebacks to be there while it was exposed. He
backfilled it and nothing has been done -- I
have to say that's the only thing Mr. Bennett
is wrong about. Mr. Moy has not maintained
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
this. That bulkhead has not been touched for
8 years.
So I disagree that this is piping or
seepage through there. I think it's just
backfill, it's just compaction. If you have
filter mesh and you have tongue and groove
planking, which is less than 8 years old, you
don't have seepage through there. So you
might have one or two, but this is just
settling. So it is -- this bulkhead is
actually structurally sound. I have to
reiterate that the attorney here said I did
calculations, but no, I did not do
calculations because I don't know what's in
there. I don't know how many tiebacks there
are there, but this bulkhead is structurally
sound.
Now, what you have to understand is that
this -- if I wanted to fail this bulkhead what
I would do is I'd get a dump truck filled with
soil and I back it up to the edge of that
bulkhead. Now, what would happen? Now, this
is not going to happen normally all we have
here going is residential cars. If I put a
fully loaded dump truck next to there I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
going to ask the question what happens? We
know what would happen.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It would start to
buckle.
MR. FISCHETTI: It will start to move.
That's the failure. We're not talking about
catastrophic failure here. The only way that
bulkhead is going to fail catastrophically to
fall in there, is if a meteor came down and
fell on it. Now, the point is that under
normal circumstances with normal cars in here
we will maintain that bulkhead. We will look
at it. If it tends to move or it tends to
fail for any reason in the future, it will be
maintained by Mr. Moy and I think this is a
diversion to the original application here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Before you leave.
The original discussion at the last hearing
was the issue of 280A and approved access.
MR. FISCHETTI: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The discussion with
Jamie Richter, the Town Engineer, and so on
and so forth and, of course, you've been
before this Board many, many times where we've
talked about using light machinery on the top
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
of a bluff, okay, rather than using heavy
machinery for putting swimming pools in and
other types of things. The purpose of the
280A aspect and the specific type of ground
cover is primarily for 280A, but it is also
for my fellow fire fighters.
MR. FISCHETTI: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Because as OS~A has
continued the trucks that used to cost
$12,000.00 went to $24,000.00. Now they're
$270,000.00 that is the reason why new fire
departments are being built, new doors are
being put in, and the weight of them are 17-
1/2 to 18 tons. It's a lot of weight and that
is one of the concerns. This is a very unique
application and I agree with whatever
everybody says about it. It is adjacent to
the water, so my question to you is do you
fell the same way if we end up with an 18 ton
vehicle adjacent to that bulkhead?
MR. FISCHETTI: The Town Code requires it
to the property line. Your firemen will be
coming along West Lake Drive, they're not
going to come into my driveway.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not necessarily.
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MR. FISCHETTI: Not necessary.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If there was an --
the normal process is the first responder
goes. I'm not talking about this particular
fire department, I'm talking about our fire
department which is two towns away. They
always bring in these cases a heavy rescue
vehicle. A heavy rescue vehicle is a usually
a pumper with heavy rescue equipment on it.
They are going to go to the quickest, easiest
spot to be able to get to. Not only a house
situation, but a water situation and a water
situation could very simply be Little Peconic
Bay or this wonderful, beautiful lagoon area
that exists here.
Okay, I'm just asking you that question
because if you feel differently, then this
property owner should really inform the fire
department that they really shouldn't bring
any heavy vehicles in here.
MR. FISCHETTI: As I said, I go back to
the Town Code that says that the fire vehicles
have to go to their access. They're not going
to be coming into that driveway.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There is no way you
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
can stop them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
When they --
If there's
a fire
(Inaudible) surround
that house or they're going to go in as far as
they possibly can to gain access to that
inaudible).
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay, then all I can say
is if they put a pumper in there, the failure
would not be a catastrophic failure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FISCHETTI: But possibly a deflection
of that bulkhead, at the present time, but
that's all that -- that's what would happen.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just ask a
question. How do you feel about the previous
comment about moving the house toward the
westerly dug canal somewhat, maybe 5 feet and
the driveway on the easterly side of the house
or in the front because as a matter of fact,
there's no reason why a pervious driveway
can't go over a septic system.
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk
Environmental. To address those points
quickly you have to understand that this is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
subject to very heavy and very detailed
scrutiny by both the Trustees and the DEC.
The suggestion that we would take the house
and move it closer to the water in any
direction is clearly prohibited by their
regulations. So that is not a practicable
alternative.
The other thing you should know, the
suggestion of putting a driveway over a septic
system is prohibited by Suffolk County
Department of Health Services regulations for
residential construction.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else here -- does the Board have any
questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just have a comment.
This relates to Mr. Fischetti about the
Trustee permit about the grading on the
property and the fill. You gave us a topo
that we requested at the last meeting and
after looking at this it looks like there is
fill being proposed in areas above and beyond
the proposed septic system, which is
permitted.
MR. FISCHETTI: It's a combination of --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
it's not fill, it's movement of the existing
soil back and forth.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's regrading.
MR. FISCHETTI: It's regrading, this is
not a level site here and secondly, I'm and
answering the question that some areas,
because of the way the steps are, we want to
raise that area so that there aren't that many
steps to come down. There was somebody else
from the community --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: If that satisfies the
Trustees' permit then I guess I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They did indicate
they wanted no grading onsite, other than for
septic.
MR. FISCHETTI: The sanitary system needs
grading.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. Other than
for that, which obviously has to be raised to
Health Department standards --
MEMBER SC~EIDER: But in a topo here it
indicates the grading goes all the way from
the septic system, continues underneath the
proposed house along with its pilings and goes
past the steps. So it's (inaudible).
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MR. ROSENBERG: (Inaudible) I think it's
just a feather down from the elevation of the
septic system to the existing grade. They
don't want it to have a terrace.
MR. FISCHETTI: Again, I don't know the
termination. So you're saying -- I'm trying
to determine that the Code says that it has to
stay exactly the way it is, that it can't be
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Not the Code, the
Trustees.
MR. FISCHETTI: Not Code, the Trustees.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: The Trustees'
permit.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's the Trustees'
permit, which --
MR. FISCHETTI: Then we will leave it as
is. Then that -- those grading plans that I
have was moving dirt around to get the proper
height.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It goes from 6 feet to
8 feet, so that's considerable. I could see
if you're moving 6 to 7, but just addressing
the concerns of --
MR. FISCHETTI: Well, the 8 feet is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
required for the sanitary system and it's
slowly going down from that area.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, no. I'm not
talking about the sanitary system. I'm
talking, I guess that would be -- let's see,
going south of the sanitary system.
Underneath the whole house it's 8 feet
elevation, it's brought up to 8 feet where
there exists 6 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's very possible
the Trustees' permit didn't realize that there
had to be some regrading. You may have to go
back and tell them that.
MR. ROSENBERG: Well, whatever we have to
do to comply with that permit --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: I'd rather not go back to
them, if you recall we had a (inaudible). So
we will comply (inaudible) comply.
MR. FISCHETTI: We will comply.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, again, I'm
addressing the concerns of your neighbors here
and it's --
MR. FISCHETTI: What is the concern --
MEMBER SCKNEIDER: The concern is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
compliance with the permit, that's all.
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay.
MR. ROSENBERG: I don't know if that's a
concern of theirs or they're raising a
technicality in hopes of influencing the
Board, but --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's your opinion.
MR. ROSENBERG: -- within standards of
the Town Code I don't see how that changes the
character of the neighborhood whether it's at
6 feet or 7 feet or at 8 feet and I don't see
how grading will affect the character of the
neighborhood. We will comply with the permit,
but I think that these are red herrings that
they're bringing up and are not within the
factors or the criteria that this Board is
supposed to be concerned with.
With all due respect, you're certainly
(inaudible) to ask the question and we will
answer them, but I'd just like to make that
point.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask you a
question.
MR. FISCHETTI: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The non-disturbance
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buffer proposed along the -- along Little
Peconic Bay, along that bulkhead, what is the
width?
MR. FISCHETTI: Say again?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The width of the
non-disturbance buffer that's proposed along
the bulkhead --
MR. ROSENBERG: It's already existing as
a matter of fact. It goes along the entire
bulkhead. (Inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Yes, I've seen
that. I've observed it. I just want to know
what the --
MR. ROSENBERG: It's 15 feet. My
recollection is it's 15 feet. 15 feet.
MR. ANDERSON: That was required as per
Trustees' --
CHAIRPERSON WEISgLAN: Right.
MR. ANDERSON: -- (inaudible
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I observed
that it's there. What's the width of the
proposed driveway at its widest?
MR. FISCHETTI: At its widest, actually
the driveway itself coming up had to be 12
feet to be compliant with the Section of the
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Code that Jerry was asking for. As it comes
in here, it might be a little wider where that
parking area is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Yeah, but there's
no scale indicated here.
MR. FISCHETTI: The scale is 1 --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, 1 inch to 10
feet.
MR. FISCHETTI: It might be 20 feet to
get two cars to park on that one area, it's a
little bit wider.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, are we saying
it's 20 feet wide?
MR. FISCHETTI: I'm thinking that I set
it up for two cars.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMkN: It seems --
MR. FISCHETTI: It doesn't look 20 feet.
I don't have a scale with me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I don't
either, that's why I thought maybe you knew it
because at the very least --
MR. FISCHETTI: It might be 18.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- this may be an
inconvenience for the applicant, but at the
very least the width of one car, you know, one
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could be the backup space. You're going to
have to a little maneuvering here. There
needs to be a buffer along that dug canal.
There needs to be some sort of protective
buffer along that dug canal and a railing, a
guardrail of some sort.
MR. FISCHETTI: We have no problem with
guardrails, and as far as the width goes, now
that we have a turnaround area I think we can
probably do a narrow driveway. The portion of
the driveway along the western side of the
house by a foot or two.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Probably do better
than a foot or two.
Okay, anybody else?
MR. FISCHETTI: Excuse me, just a
comment. We could probably reduce the parking
area down to one car and I could probably get
3 feet out of that entrance where it comes
around the turn. So I could get three more
feet out of that section where it's closest.
So we could probably get 5 feet there and,
again, a barrier of some kind should not be a
problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Joe.
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MR. FISCHETTI: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This gentleman is
ready to speak. Did you want to make a
comment, this gentleman is waiting to speak?
Okay, please come forward.
MR. GUNN: I just wanted to ask the
attorney --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You address the
Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Please state your
name.
MR. GUNN: I'm sorry. My name is Peter
Gunn and I'm President of the West Lake
Association.
I have been vociferous in terms of my
words of -- against this project, but I was
challenged, I think I heard today, that I did
not have the authority to have our attorney --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This way.
MR. GUNN: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Address the Board.
MR. GUN-N: I'm trying to elicit from the
attorney his objections to, on technical
merit, I guess, to our attorney who is
representing us here today, that I didn't give
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notice to the, or have the permission of, the
rest of the West Lake Association.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, regardless,
we have the information you supplied us with
and any applicant has a right to legal
representation and so does anyone else who
wishes to come before this Board, so that's
moot.
MR. GUNN: Well, just for the record, I
can't give you the exact date, but there was a
meeting of the West Lake Association and our
efforts were to hire an attorney and engineer
to represent us in this regard.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right,
the record is set straight now. Thank you.
MR. GUNN: Uh --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: uh -- okay.
MR. GUNN: I just wanted to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to just --
go ahead, finish your point.
MR. GUN-N: I'm sorry. Mr. KamineR tried
to explain what this objection was and, again,
he held up this similar piece of paper. You
all know what it is and it's the permit issued
by the Board of the Town Trustees. This new
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grading map, which was asked for by this Board
at the last hearing July 30th, has been
submitted and in essence it is been submitted
in violation of the Trustees' permit. That's
the only point I'm trying to make. The other
issue is that Mr. Fischetti on the last
hearing explained how we could grass this and
make it look good and plantings, etc, etc.
The only vegetation allowed for this entire
site is the natural vegetation grasses. There
is no sod or lawn to be allowed. That's all I
wanted to talk about. Thank you.
MR. TALBET: John Talbet, Talbet, Lester,
and (inaudible) for the West Lake Association.
I'm not going to respond to personal
attacks. I just want to set a few things
straight. When my firm was contacted I said
well, we don't really do neighbors who want to
oppose pools in people's backyards. We're not
looking to prevent people from building houses
on their property. We said what is your
concern? They said their concern is the dug
inlet. It's our right to get to Little
Peconic Bay. I said okay, we'll hire an
engineer, we know a good engineer and if he
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
says there's a problem, we'll show up. If he
goes out there and says that thing is fine,
then we're not going to be here tonight.
So Drew went out and he has very, he
stated on the record, he stated it in writing,
but he has very legitimate concerns regarding
what will happen to the bulkhead if this
project is built. I don't believe I heard Mr.
Fischetti say -- actually, I think I heard him
say that it will fail if -- and there may be
some discrepancy, disagreement about whether
it would be catastrophic or not and I'm not an
engineer, but I know that bulkheads can fail
in a catastrophic way, but even a failure is a
problem.
In this case, the applicant is requesting
a 51-foot and I do think that when you're
requesting a 51-foot variance from a bulkhead
the state of the bulkhead is something that is
pertinent to the application. So when you're
requesting a 51-foot variance and one of your
neighbors says, you know, I'm not opposed to
your variance, but I have to make sure that
you're not going to interfere with my right to
get to Little Peconic Bay. The only way he
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wouldn't say, you know what, I'll bring that
bulkhead up to standards so you're satisfied
it's going to hold is cost. So apparently the
applicant doesn't want to spend the money to
bring the bulkhead up to a condition that
won't fail and instead he's asking you for a
very large variance.
So we think that it's a failure to the
application. They have to be at the minimum
necessary and refusing to spend money to bring
this up is failure to meet the minimum
standards. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Bennett, did
you want to make any comments regarding
anything that you heard or you're all right?
MR. BENNETT: Drew Bennett, Consulting
Engineer. I would like to express my
appreciation to Mr. Fischetti, he did
facilitate my inspection, and I do appreciate
his opinion. I do not agree with his -- all
of his judgments and I think we're not that
far apart. I think most of it has to do with
vocabulary, but I think you did hear that, and
I don't want to speak for Mr. Fischetti, but I
think we would all have some reservations
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about parking a dump truck on the edge of this
bulkhead. I'd park my bike there, but I don't
know if I'd park a fully loaded dump truck.
In terms of a catastrophic failure, I
think John has touched on that a little bit.
This past winter I saw hundreds and hundreds
of feet of bulkhead snapped off where the pile
snaps. Once the pile snaps, it goes. So I'm
not predicting that, but it does happen and
that's (inaudible) very recently.
The only thing I'd like to touch on of
the attorney's comments, it's basically I
think I'm pretty clear in my report and I
thought I was clear in my testimony that I do
not believe that the house, in its proposed
location, will have a detriment to this
particular bulkhead. I do have serious
reservations about the parking lot,
(inaudible) the parking lot and its location
to the bulkhead. I think that's all I would
like to clarify. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the
other hearings that are before us,
a great deal of testimony here and rightly so,
it's a complicated issue and we want to be
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we've taken
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
fair to all interested parties, I'd like to
have some summary comments if there are any
other questions before the Board, then the
Board will decide what to do next.
MR. ROSENBERG: I just heard it again,
for those of you who recall it from last time,
I'll restate it again, the Moys actually do
have a dock on the Pond, so they also use that
inlet. So they have every reason to maintain
it. We have already said that if the permit
were granted we shall maintain it. I think
these are maintenance issues. I think it's
demonstrated by the fact that 8 years ago we
redid the whole bulkhead. He uses that inlet
himself, so he has no reason not to maintain
it and I think that this is again focusing on
issues that are not relevant to the criteria
that's established in the Town law for you to
grant an area variance. These are all
maintenance issues. They will be continued to
be maintained provided we get the permit and I
think if you look at the bulkhead on the other
side of the dug inlet, this is as functional
as that side is. There is no concern and of
course the (inaudible) is clearly an example
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of hyperbole. If there is any concern by the
way that during construction it is -- we will
represent just like we have other conditions
in the permit like hay bales and all that kind
of stuff, that any heavy construction
equipment will not go near the bulkhead
because they can certainly get to it from the
extension of West Lake Road and from what I
call the front of the house. So none of those
heavy construction vehicles will be close to
the bulkhead.
I think that based upon the evidence
presented, and the criteria that this Board is
compelled to consider based upon Town law,
that we have satisfied our burden of proving
that the variances requested should be
granted. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have just one
question more. As proposed, there is a
wraparound deck, you know, obviously raised
deck along the -- both bulkheads, the one on
Little Peconic Bay and the one that's facing
the dug canal and that side, is there any
reason why that deck along that side facing
the dug inlet cannot be removed and the
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driveway brought over closer that way to the
house and further away from that bulkhead?
MR. ROSENBERG: I think even if the deck
were removed, I think we'd still need some
landing at the top of the stairs going up to
the house so that the landing itself would
have to be there. So the driveway would still
have to be west of the landing and staircase.
So I would think we wouldn't actually be able
to move the staircase any closer to the house,
I think that the Code would require a landing
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It would, but why
is it necessary to have -- you have one
entrance off of West Lake and you've got two
sets of stairs off of the other one. Why do
you need a fourth?
MR. ROSENBERG: That's closest to the
driveway so if you come in with packages,
that's also the kitchen side of the house. So
with grocery shopping or anything else, that
would be the way they would come into the
house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
looking for some sort of
Well, I'm just
concession here, some
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way of designing, redesigning something.
MR. ROSENBERG: I think Mr. Fischetti's
already indicated he could probably pick up 3
feet by narrowing the driveway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I understand
that. I'm just looking to see the minimum
variance possible and if there's a way that
maybe that deck along the side could be -- you
can redesign the stairs. The stairs do not
have to go perpendicular to the dug canal.
They can come up to a landing and be parallel
to the dug canal.
MR. ROSENBERG: Yeah, Madame Chairperson,
as far as the, again, so we understand each
other, as far as the minimum variance we're
requesting, that goes to the edge of the house
and the house we're not talking about moving.
So as far as the variance goes and out of
respect for the Board we've already indicated
we will narrow the driveway. If, in fact,
that landing is not needed or if we can
reconfigure the stairs so they go parallel to
the house instead of outward toward the dug
inlet, we're certainly prepared to make those
modifications.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
thing I want to point out
setback of 24.3 is not to
Yeah, the only
counsel is that the
the house, it is to
the deck.
MR.
that.
MR.
It is to the proposed deck.
FISCHETTI: Let Mr. Anderson handle
ANDERSON: Just a suggestion.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. ANDERSON: (Not at microphone)
Inaudible) to run the stairway to the side.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I was
just proposing.
MR. ANDERSON: (Inaudible) this way and
bring it over that way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
over.
Right, to bring it
exactly. Well, you're even maintaining your
depth that way.
MR. ANDERSON: (Inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean what you're
gaining is this, which is what I was proposing
anyway. At the very least you can add to the
narrowing of the driveway by rerunning the
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. Yup,
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steps that way, there's a car parked right
here anyhow.
MR. ANDERSON: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're not losing
anything and you're giving yourself a little
more safety from that bulkhead in terms of --
you need a door swing, too, when you open the
car doors you need to be able to step around
it and not into the canal.
(3:17 MEMBER HORNING LEFT THE MEETING.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So how about we do
this. We also have a lot of stuff to read
that we just got yesterday and, you know,
normally I would propose closing this hearing
but I think because we may have further
questions and we do want to have time to read
everything we can -- how does the Board feel
about --
MR. ROSENBERG: Madame Chairperson, if I
may, if the Board closed the hearing and had
any other questions, it could certainly reopen
the hearing. I would like some finality as
far as giving the opposition, for lack of a
better word --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: Reopening the
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hearing is a lot bigger deal than just leaving
it open. I don't know about that, but we can
close it subject to a certain amount of time
to receive additional comments and to read
this, but you know if we have questions, if we
read the materials submitted, we have a
memorandum of law that no one has read that
was just received, you know, we have a lot of
information to digest --
MR. ROSENBERG: I just hope the Board
would --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The person writing
the draft findings will probably want to
review the transcripts, which take about two
weeks, sometimes three in fact to get back
from the consultant and this is a very long
hearing and it's a lot to read.
MR. ROSENBERG: I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'll poll the Board
and see what they want to do. Do you want to
close it or do you want to adjourn it to
September.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Hold it to the
September meeting.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's do
this, we're going to adjourn this to
September. We will fit you in at 2:00 in
September even though we're very crowded
because, hopefully, there will be -- we'll be
able to open it and close it without any
additional commentary, but at least that way
every one concerned has an opportunity --
MR. ROSENBERG: Is it possible to get
2:30? I don't know what the last scheduled
hearing is you have that day, but --
last
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. ROSENBERG: All
That would be the
right, then we'll
keep it at 2. I just also want the Board --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Bear in mind that
it's (inaudible).
MR. ROSENBERG: -- that Mrs. Moy is 86
years old and I think you might have seen her
here last time. She does have difficulty
getting around and she would like to hopefully
enjoy the house before she passes on.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We won't take that
long to make a decision, believe me. I
promise.
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UNIDENTIFIED: What is the September
date?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The 23rd.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I made a motion to
adjourn this hearing to September 23rd at 2:00
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING #6389 - John E and
Sharon I. Wren
(Adjourned from July 29, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have an
application before us now that has previously
been heard on July 29tn and before we get
started on that, there's no need to read the
legal notice because it's a carryover, before
we get started I just want to let the audience
know that we have received and I'm assuming,
rightly or wrongly, that many of you, if not
all of you are aware of the fact that the
applicant's architect, Mo Kramer, was unable
to be here today and has requested in writing
that this hearing be adjourned to next month
so that she will have an opportunity to come
before the Board to address any questions the
Board might have or any comments that anyone
from the public might be making.
So I'm going to open this hearing and we
will take testimony if there are those here
who have something very important to say. The
architect can certainly read the transcript,
you know, and come back and be prepared to
comment accordingly.
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So let's see if there's -- who's this
assigned to?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So let's open this
hearing up and see if there's anyone here
who'd like to address this application.
Please come forward, state your name for
the record.
MS. WREN: My name is Sharon Wren and I'm
the applicant for this variance and we have
one particular family that is very strongly
opposed to us having this renovation in any --
in his first letter that he wrote he specified
that he did not want a variance of any kind,
at any time, any place, any time being granted
to us and when his -- the wife Ms. Kirchner
inherited this property this property from her
father a couple of years ago, she approached
my husband and she said, ~I hope it's okay
with you, but we do not plan to maintain the
part of our property," which is actually the
front of their property, "that is closest to
your property because we don't really use that
area." And she had said that to my husband.
Last week, I think it was last week,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
there was a work session or something here and
since that time, I think that was Wednesday of
last week --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was a special
meeting.
MS. WREN: Yeah, it was a special
meeting. Since that meeting, they have been
parking two different cars as close to our
property line as they can possibly get them to
kind of set that they are in fact using that
end of their property. Now, the opposite side
of their property is where they really do use
because they have a large deck and a swimming
pool and it's on the bay side. The part of
the property that faces our property is
basically a big circle drive that they come
in, they park the car and then we never see
them. Now what happened last week is suddenly
they start parking these two cars as close to
our property as they possibly can.
Yesterday I came back from shopping and I
saw two beach chairs close to our property
under a dead Lilac tree facing their house.
So again they're trying to establish that
they're going to use this part of their
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
property and so they don't want us to be so
close when, in fact, our house and their house
are 170 feet apart.
Now today I went out into my backyard and
they were constructing -- putting up a
lacrosse net about three feet from the
property line and my daughter went out and she
said, ~'Excuse me, what are you doing?" They
said, "We have a son who is in college who is
on," some big team, "who plays lacrosse and
when and if he comes," and I've never seen
him, "he might want to practice his lacrosse."
Now, with this net being put where they
put it, if I go out my back door I'll be hit
by a lacrosse ball because it's right there
and right on my property line and any ball
that they hit, if it doesn't go in the net, is
going to go in my yard. I took some pictures
just to give you an idea.
Also he does not like the idea that we
may obstruct his sunlight.
north side of his property.
this picture where the net
We are on the
You can see by
is, where the car
is, where his house is and there is sunshine
(inaudible) there and here's another picture
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
of their lawn chairs under the dead tree.
Here's another picture of the two cars that
are parked there.
I don't understand why they are being so
nasty, I really don't.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Wren, in all
true fairness, I've been on this Board for 30-
1/2 years, I'm not the Chairperson on this
Board, I have asked people to go out and try
and rectify things. I can't answer your
question. Things tend to be counterproductive
at certain times. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't have given us those pictures,
they're valuable pictures; I think. I'm not
speaking for the Chairperson. I think we
would like to keep them in the file if we
could.
MRS. WREN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We were -- I will, as
the Board will continue this hearing, and I'm
speaking for the Board, we will then render a
decision and we thank you. I am personally
thanking you for the pictures, although I'm
sure the Chairperson would and the members of
the Board and we'll go from there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MRS. WREN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And we'll continue
the hearing as we have and we will make a
decision some time after the next meeting,
which is September 23.
MRS. WREN: We always had a very nice
relationship with her father. As a matter of
fact, I maintained his rose bushes when he
became ill and couldn't do it anymore. I took
care of them cause they were on the split rail
fence that is adjoining our property and then
I got to the point where I said, you know,
it's really a lot of work for me to maintain
your rose bushes. How about if I dig them up
and plant hydrangeas across that back, in
front of his fence, the split rail fence and I
said I will dig up the rose bushes, I will buy
the hydrangeas, I will take care of them and I
have watered and pruned those hydrangeas on
his property until just this year when we had
our battles with his daughter and I mean I
just don't understand what's going on. It
blows my mind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One second please.
We have two letters that are brand new, well
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
pretty brand new August 25. Same people,
different letter, we've heard from them
before. We have one letter that I'd like to
just enter into the record from a Stephen
Latham supporting this application indicating
that some of those who have written letters or
complainants can't see the Wren property from
their homes while others haven't even seen the
plans, submitting that some of the complaints
are born out of personal animus for John and
his family having nothing to do with the size,
location or architecture of the project.
On the other hand we have a letter from
Thomas and Barbara Ball indicating that this
will be one of the largest houses in the
neighborhood on one of the smallest lots in
the neighborhood and that it will result with
a huge second floor dormer denying privacy and
will create additional runoff.
Can you address those three issues?
MRS. WREN: Absolutely. As far as being
one of the biggest houses on the smallest lot,
that is absolutely untrue. Right next door to
us we have another Tudor that I understand he
-- they have renovated. I mean, I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
understand, I know they have renovated quite a
bit and they definitely have the smallest lot
and they've covered 28 percent of their lot.
The house across the street from us used to be
a ranch and it is now a two-story house that
is probably -- our renovation will be about
the size of that house.
Every -- almost every single house in our
community has been renovated and the house
that is exactly behind our house used to be a
smaller house. Now they've put on a big
sunroom, this was the previous owners, and
they are covering a good percent of their
property as well. We are certainly not going
to be the biggest house in there. There is
another house that -- I forget what that is.
Rogers Road and then the one coming in.
Orchard. There is a large house, very large
house that I believe was one of the existing
houses that we called the -- anyway it's a
big, big structure, much bigger than what we
are proposing.
So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And with regard to
your proposed second floor dormer, how huge is
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that and how will it affect the neighbors'
privacy and anybody?
MRS. WREN: It will be over -- we want a
two-car garage with two bedrooms with dormers
over that and it will not affect anybody's
view in any way, shape or form. The Kuchner
property it won't -- what it would affect is
they wouldn't be able to see Hippodrome Drive.
It's not affecting their view, it's not
affecting their sun because they have trees in
their back yard that they couldn't really see
except if they are back on our property line.
They wouldn't even be able to see our house,
probably, through the trees. I don't, you
know, I don't understand how it's going to
affect anybody's view of anything.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How about runoff?
Are you planning to put in gutters and leaders
and drywells, as per Code?
MRS. WREN: I'm sure the architect would
put in gutters and what-have-you. The Board
of Health has given us permission for our
septic fields. I don't -- I can't see -- the
neighbors who are across the street from us
are only 125 feet from us. The Kuchners are
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
170 feet from us. The house across the street
is -- I mean we're not blocking any view of
them. We're not blocking anybody's view. I
don't understand what the problem is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see if
there's anyone else here that would like to
address this, bearing in mind that we'll have
continuing testimony next month.
MR. TALBET: John Talbet, Talbet, Lester
and (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. TALBET: Second time today, second
time ever.
I do have some pictures of this
application and I just wondered did you get my
memo of law (inaudible)? If not, I'll give it
to you again.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Have we got a
memorandum of law?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I thought we did.
MR. TALBET: Okay, good. I wasn't sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Oh yes. Yes. We
have it right here.
MR. TALBET: I just wondered, when this
is continued will there be a chance for me to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
speak then?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh yes.
MR, TALBET: Mrs. Wren, she's already
made my point for me. She's obviously
disturbed by the fact that my clients have
started using part of their property to park
their car, for the beach chairs and put a
lacrosse net. It's their property. They're
looking to put a -- in effect, it would be a
27-foot high, 43-foot long wall 9 feet from
her property line. The setback is not -- the
setback is not from her house it's from the
property line and I have a hard time imagining
where a Zoning Board would go from here.
Once you grant a two-story high 33-foot
long addition on a small property 9 feet from
a property line, it's hard to imagine a larger
variance. Is it the minimum variance
necessary? Absolutely not. Is it
substantial? Absolutely. So I just wanted to
clarify those two things and I'll be here next
time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. Thank you.
Anyone else?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MRS. KUCHNER: Mrs. Chairperson and the
Board, Mrs. Wren, I do want --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~:
please.
MRS. KUCHNER: Yes,
State your name,
I'm Mrs. Kuchner. I
do want to clarify some things. I think that
the photograph that was presented by Mrs. Wren
is a very good example of why we're concerned
about our privacy. We're using our yard in a
way that's appropriate for a family. She has
been quizzing me on what I'm going to be
doing. How I use my property as long as I'm
not making a lot of noise and I'm not making a
lot of mess and I'm not interfering with them
is -- should not be her concern. I resent
having pictures being taken of me without my
permission while I'm putting up a lacrosse
goal and by the way my son is a Division 1 --
was a Division 1 lacrosse player and he does
play lacrosse and uses -- we have used that
area.
Another example is she has been talking
about the comings and goings of my family and
her daughter made several comments to me,
unwanted comments, and I do want to preserve
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
that for the record, about my guests, about my
person, about what I was doing in my yard on a
beautiful morning. I do want to indicate that
they are requesting a very large variance.
They are asking to put -- to double or more
than double the size of a house 9 feet, I
think it's 9 feet 3 inches from my property
line.
The laws talk about property lines, not
distances from the doors of homes. I
certainly can understand that one might need a
small variance to put up a cellar door or for
something that is of importance in terms of
safety. The Wrens are asking to put 25 feet
of their home in the space that the Zoning
Board in their Codes have indicated should be
the area between homes. That is more than two
rooms. I do not understand why they should
assume that they can place two of their rooms
in the space and this is what is upsetting me
a great deal. I am sure that there are other
configurations that could allow them to
renovate and I do understand that they want to
stay in a lovely neighborhood and that they
want to winter there.
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ZBA To~rn of Southold - August 26, 2010
My father and my mother loved that area
and were fulltime residents and when I retire
we also plan to stay in the area and we have a
dream of lovely space, a rural area that is
fitting with this area in Southold that we
have loved for many, many years. Our family
has been living out here in Southold for over
40 years and my sons grew up summering there
with their grandparents. I grew up summering
here as did the Wren family.
So I really feel that I have to rely on
the Board to look at the specifics of their
Code and not to make up new ways of thinking
about things, such as the distance from the
door. We have a larger lot then the Wrens,
but we also pay taxes on a larger lot and this
was part of the dream. The concern is
setback, which is required 35 feet and they
are demanding 9 feet 3 inches, something like
that, and the concern is proportion of the
size of their building to the lot size that
they have.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ms. Kuchner, I just
wanted to let you know that the photograph
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that we just received from Mrs. Wren does not
show anybody in it. Okay, just objects. You
were not photographed, just so you know that
that's not in our file.
MRS. KUCHNER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, is there
anyone else who would like to make a comment
on this application at this time?
MR. HEATH: Good afternoon. My name is
Bruce Heath, resident (inaudible) on
Hippodrome Drive.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you spell
your last name?
MR. HEATH: Yes, it's H-E-A-T-H.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. HEATH: For the past 30 years we've
been vacationing out in Southold, we're now
permanent residents. We're just, my wife and
I are just finishing this whole process, and
finally completing our house and moving in
shortly. Over the last five years, four
years, since we've been out here permanently,
I got involved within the organization itself
in terms of the politics. I thought it was my
time to kind of step up, during all those
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
years I was playing with the kids and raising
them. I don't want to get into personalities
within Dixie (Inaudible), but I think it would
be accurate to say that, unfortunately, it's a
community right now that's full of tension.
It's a beach community which doesn't have a
beach, depending on the tide.
If I was to move in as a total stranger
or any of you today and you were to meet
somebody, depending on who you spoke to at
Dixie (Inaudible) and you saw the -- I've been
checking around and I saw that the beach is
gone, I think it's an act of God, you make a
certain amount of enemies. If you say it's
because of bulkhead, you'll make maybe a few
enemies. If you raise the topic that it maybe
has to do with homes that were built
originally on the water back in the 80s, you
also make enemies. All I'm trying to say here
is there are no clear answers to this
question, but the tensions that exist
sometimes do overflow and having gone through
the same process of having neighbors with
concerns when we were doing our building come
to us and I could see the difference between
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
somebody coming with a sincere reservation. I
know the difference when somebody's coming
with a personal feeling cause they're just not
getting along with their neighbor, it doesn't
say anything about either side, but I would
like to say that I do believe that part of
what's taken place has split our area and it's
almost like you're for us or you're against us
and it's going to play out in many
applications I believe as time goes on here.
We don't have many homes that have not
been renovated in Dixie (inaudible) but
unfortunately it's almost like you go to do
something and the tom-toms start. The phone
calls are being made, people are being called
in and I don't understand how some of that
works sometimes. If I have a complaint
against a neighbor, I talk to my neighbor. I
don't need another neighbor to call, but it's
politics at its worst sometimes and maybe
hopefully it'll get better one day, but that
is something that's overhanging this
organization -- I'm sorry,
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
this community.
Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
Okay, I'm going to reserve any questions
I might have until the next hearing,
especially in the interest of time today.
Does any other Board member have anything
they'd like to add at this time?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Hearing no
further comments or questions, I'm going to
make a motion to adjourn this hearing to
September 23rd at 2:30.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
HEARING ~6385 - Alexander L.
and Tracy M. Sutton
(Adjourned from June 30, 2010 PH)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The next
application before us is also a carryover.
Jim, that was your application, would you like
to begin questioning?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. They can present
their case.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Do you want
me to just ask because we have heard testimony
on this, Pat has presented the applicant's
case. We have the transcripts and all of
that. I want to know if any other Board
members, at the moment, have any other
questions, otherwise I'll see who else is in
the audience and whether there are additional
testimony. I don't know if I want to go back
over stuff that we already heard and presented
or whatever unless there's some crucial reason
why, but I would assume everybody in the
audience is pretty up to date on what has been
discussed so far.
We have not received any additional
information other than today a petition and
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
was there -- it's signed by one person and I
don't know if it's going to be signed by
anybody else, but it's called a petition. So
one would assume more than one signature, but
nevertheless I'm sure that they'll have some
comments about that.
MRS. MOORE: May I get a copy of it at
Vicki's convenience?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It doesn't have to be now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's just go ahead
and take some testimony.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. I don't want to
rehash everything. You have the transcript
and I think last hearing we actually discussed
an alternative size of the lots in the area,
particularly Victoria Drive area. We had
already stated for the record that the 50-foot
right of way, that parcel that's shown on the
tax map will be retained as is as a right of
way. My client has no objection to that and
that was a request by the community, which we
would certainly honor.
I had given you two different maps, if
you recall. The one, the map that I first
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submitted with my application was the map that
had been before the Planning Board so that's
why I submitted it to you. That is the map
with respect to the lot size, the proposed lot
size of lot 2 made a more conforming lot to
the Victoria Drive neighborhood, which it
seems to belong to. So we wanted -- that is
our preference. The lot 1 on the subdivision,
which would be a little bit oversized was
around the Suttons' house and then that
particular map for purposes of clarifying and
acreage square footages we just showed it as
parcel A and parcel B, that provided square
footage calculations. That was the first map.
The second map when there were some
questions by the Board I think Jerry had asked
a question as to had we looked at an
alternative plan that provided -- that evened
out the lots, we said, yes, we actually had a
drawing of that and that showed the evening
out of the two lots. Again, we would prefer
that lot 2 be the smaller one requiring a
variance, a greater variance in a sense that
more of the acreage would be on lot 1, but
again it leaves for a better dimensional
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
parcel for the overall subdivision of these
two pieces. That map, the second map,
actually provides a better drawing of the
roadway.
What we were discussing out in the
hallway and I'll have Eileen Powers -- Ms.
Powers come before the Board -- we came up
with certain consensus as a group and we'd
like to present it to you for consideration,
but one of the issues was keeping that right
of way as a separate tax lot number with,
which right now is in a separate LLC, keeping
that as a separate and not having the property
line as shown in the first map extend across,
but keeping it as a separate unit that
hopefully we can get the Assessor's not to
create a tax bill for it and just assign it to
the minimal tax bill that you would apply to
the adjacent property if they can do that so
that you don't lose it again for lack of
taxation or lack of payment of taxes, but
keeping that parcel separate so that it's very
clear that we're not preventing anybody from
accessing it.
Also, I think I recommended it to the
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client as well to keep it in a separate LLC
for liability purposes since we're going to
have people crossing that right of way, it's
better to keep it as a separate distinct unit.
So that was something that would require
me to draw it up, but I think for purposes of
the variance application you just have to tell
me what variance size lot you would be
agreeable to and then after that I have to go
to the Planning Board to actually finalize the
subdivision. So rather than me redrawing and
drawing again based on whatever the Planning
Board comes up with, just tell me what
hopefully you will approve. We will draw it
and then submit it to the Planning Board for
final approval.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me just suggest
something to you.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If you are intending
not to put a tax map nurser no the right of
way --
MRS. MOORE: Not, no. That's a
misstatement. I'm sorry if I said that. It
actually gets a tax map number from the
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property, but it doesn't get assessed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, no. What you do
is you load the assessment onto lot 1 --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly 1 or 2, whichever --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- whichever, yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, however the Assessor's
-- exactly. You and I are on the same page.
Yes. So that the county doesn't assign a tax
bill that we then have to pay separately.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Or that you forget to
pay.
MRS.
exactly.
MOORE: Or that they forget to pay,
I've done that before with other
parcels and it works out very well.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: I agree.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You did previously
testify that on the 50-foot right of way you
are quite prepared to file C&Rs to indicate
that the maintenance of that right of way will
be taken care of by the applicant as it is
currently.
MRS. MOORE: (inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It will be kept
open and unobstructed.
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Of
MRS. MOORE: Yes, open and unobstructed.
course. Maintenance is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- for use as it is
now.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
clients as the owners
That's fine. My
can certainly covenant
that. My concern is other people using it,
what they might with authorization or without
authorization do in the future. We would all
like to keep it just as it is. So yes, in
fact, why don't I go over some of the things
that we talked about and then I'll have Eileen
confirm it, but what we talked about was that
we would take out the language on the map that
Nate Corwin had written with respect to that
what he had identified it at one point as a
7.5 wide private right of way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's on here
that way.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I actually have that
language taken out because the right of way is
actually the 50 feet. So I don't know where
the 7.5 came from and I'm not going to
research it because it's irrelevant. So --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It says the edge of
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path.
MRS. MOORE: It's the -- exactly, it's
actually the edge of clearing a long dirt path
should stay. I mean that's actually good that
kind of establishes how the road is actually
improved now and we want to try to keep it
that way. With a caveat that I can't control
the Planning Board and what they tell us to do
with this pathway because it is our access for
lot 2, so given -- remember it's our driveway
out to Victoria Drive. So the Planning Board
I guess technically would have the right to
tell us to clear the pathway a little more,
but we have to kind of leave it up to them.
I'm hoping -- it's a driveway. For us, for
lot 2, it still remains a driveway. So I'm
hoping that that's sufficient for them.
My concern is covenanting what we can --
what may be out of my control with the
Planning Board's review. So I leave that to
your discretion how you address that. You can
certainly put in a decision that your
recommendation is to keep it --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible)
conditions (inaudible) --
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, to keep it, because
the Planning Board always requires us to file
covenants on whatever conditions that the
subdivision are imposed. So ultimately we'll
come into a covenant, but I just don't know
what they're going to say or require, so I
just alert you to that issue. That was the
first thing we talked about and we have no
problem with that, with the community.
Keep the right of way separate as a
separate piece and we talked about that first
so again we all are in agreement with that and
at the first hearing,
the 280A issues man.
be applicable because
Jerry, you always are
I don't think 280A would
I -- as long as the
Planning Board approves the subdivision would
be a road in the subdivision. So I think
we're okay there. So I
off the cuff --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
stand corrected on my
Except for the
possible access into lot 2.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, that's what I'm
saying that 280A is applicable except if it
appears on a subdivision map.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
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MRS. MOORE: So in a way, so this access
will appear on a subdivision map so I think we
need the 280 -- we don't need 280A.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You actually need
280A because it's outside the subdivision map,
okay, on --
MRS. MOORE: No, no, it's still in the
subdivision map. We own -- the right of way
is still, I think it's
to be looked at by the
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
it's a matter of --
still part of our land
Planning Board.
Okay. Ail right, so
MRS. MOORE: It's going to show up on my
map.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY: You may have a point
though, actually.
MRS. MOORE: Tell me how you want me to
do it.
BOARD SECRETARY: Cause you're keeping it
a separate tax lot it's still going to be
included in the lot area for subdivision --
MRS. MOORE: No, actually that's not
true. The -- maps on subdivision maps, Howie
Young does this all the time. You've probably
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seen it with Howie's map. He calls them
parcel A or parcel B, which are areas that are
designated on a map, but aren't lots, what he
calls lot 1, lot 2, but if you call it a
parcel A or B it's not a development lot. It
could be a drainage area, it could be a sump.
It could be any part of the overall
subdivision. I don't want to have to come
back to you for 280A, so I will do it however
you'd like.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, it's only the
one lot anyway. It's only lot 2 anyway.
MRS. MOORE: As far as what?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The 280A off of
Liberty Lane.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, but -- yeah, to
Victoria Drive.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: But I don't want to have to
come back for a variance for 280A for lot 2
when we are dealing with it today and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We can (inaudible)
that he Planning Board could do it too.
MRS. MOORE: Fine. As long as we address
it, however you want it.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
regarding that, but --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
about it, that's all.
I mean (inaudible)
Let's not forget
The option is
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3tN:
always to condition based upon C&Rs.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's right. That's
right.
All right, as long as it's addressed
we're good.
Finally the last comment that I had
received from the community was that if we as
the developer impose private covenant on lot 1
-- excuse me, lot 2 as a smaller parcel, it
could, on the first draft it would be obvious,
but lot 2 as the smaller parcel would be
30,000 square feet. So it would be under the
one acre and the nonconforming size of the
parcels would be applicable in the Code and
that allows a 40-foot front yard setback. So
what the community asked of us was to place a
private covenant on that lot that whoever
purchases or if my client develops that
property that they will not -- they will agree
that there will be no structures closer than
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40 feet to the road, the front yard setback.
So maintaining a minimum, which is what the
Code would require, 40 feet, my clients have
no problem with that, that's certainly
reasonable and regardless of which setbacks
would be applicable we would agree that no
less than 40 feet would be provided and that
was it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~N: This is the survey
that -- the most current survey proposing that
lot to be 39,291 square feet?
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) what?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 39,2917
MRS. MOORE: Well, no, we have two maps,
remember?
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_A_N: Right and lot 1 is
40,000.
MRS. MOORE: The first map has lot 2 at
30,063.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We don't have that
map.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we do.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we have it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Wait a minute, let me
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take it out of the file.
MRS. MOORE: That's the June
map.
30, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have it.
MRS. MOORE: It looks like this.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me see that map,
bring it right over here.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, you see what it
is, they reduced the size. Wait a minute,
where you getting 30,000?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Because they
removed the right of way.
MRS. MOORE: We're excluding --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, excluding that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: So now we have one
lot, we have --
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Lot 1 at 61,0007
MRS. MOORE: No. Yes, yes. Yes. Lot 1
is showing --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Look at it, lot 1
is not including parcel A is 49 --
MRS. MOORE: -- not including it's
49,292.
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MRS. MOORE: No, no.
was this.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
The first proposal
Well, included the
parcel, it included the right of way.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. Remember that it
always included the parcel, but the community
wants us to keep it as separate so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I understand that.
But why one at 49
and the other 30, when you could make 40,000
conforming and the other one 39 and
conforming, almost?
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: So you're talking
about two lots at this point neither one of
which include, now you're calling it parcel A
and B and that's the right of way and lot 1 is
49,292, lot 2 is proposed at 30,063.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And what is the
reason for having them --
MRS. MOORE: Differing in size?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: -- so different in
size when the first proposal was to make them
both as conforming as possible?
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MRS. MOORE: Are you looking at the
second map? The reason -- we had talked about
this all in the prior hearing, so I didn't go
over it, but our reason was that the homes on
Victoria Drive are all half acre, quarter
acre. That whole community I'd given you a
whole presentation last time as to the size of
the lots in that community and they were all
anywhere from 10,000 to 25,000 square feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I remember that.
MRS. MOORE: You remember that, all right
so that when I created the lot that is already
double even though nonconforming in respect to
meeting the one-acre requirement, they are
still almost double the size of the
surrounding community --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So 30,000.
MRS. MOORE: 30,000, exactly. So it made
more sense to keep that as the smaller parcel.
Also keeping in mind that the other piece is
already developed with a full house. It faces
North Bayview Road and the homes along North
Bay~iew Road have larger parcels, larger
pieces. So the house that's there and faces
North Bayview Road fits in the community of
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the North Balrview Road homes and the lot 2,
which faces or is closer to Victoria Drive
fits the community of the Victoria Drive area.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I got it. I
remember now.
MRS. MOORE:
So that was the reason they
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I remember it now.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, good.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just say
something?
MRS. MOORE: Go ahead.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You had mentioned a 40-
foot front yard setback and the building
envelope indicates a 50-foot.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it does.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. No, that was -- Nate
provided that based on he was using the 41,551
with the right of way area, that's why he
looked at it as 50, but if you actually create
the property line ending at the road then you
become, under the nonconforming sized lot
requirements, it allows a 40-foot front yard.
So we didn't want to have a misunderstanding
or a misrepresentation that again this was the
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map that the Planning Board had first looked
at and they were using the area from the road
into the lot calculation, which requires a 50-
foot front yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, which is what you
have on this map. So we need to --
MRS. MOORE: I can give you another map.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, let's clarify the
whole thing.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're getting rid
of that dirt (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: I can give you a map
revision that has all of these changes on it,
but my only concern was the expense of
changing, and the time, of changing maps that
when I've been to you and I still have to go
to the Planning Board and who knows what other
little tweaks the Planning Board is going to
require. So if you would like, I can
certainly file with you what the Planning
Board's version of the map --
MEMBER DINIZIO: We could make that a
condition.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I will submit to you
the final version so it'll be part of your
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record. Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMJkN: That's what we
would have to send over to Building
Department. In other words, the final
approved --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) stamped one map,
yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If we condition it
that way, we'll have to wait until we get it
and that's what we'll send over to the
Building Department. That's the way we're
doing it now so that --
MRS. MOORE: That'll be in the file.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- it goes with the
decision. You know, the final drawing with
the decision.
MRS. MOORE:
prefers. I was
this process.
I will do whatever the Board
just trying to be efficient in
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Well,
sure there are lots of comments others
audience want to make.
MRS. MOORE:
others to use.
in the
I'll leave the maps here for
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CMAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Vicki's going to
we're --
MS. POWERS:
Just one second,
change the tape and then
(CHANGE, TAPE #3)
You won't see my face I'll
be down there doing this. At any rate, we're
relying on their representation that they'll
remove the language of the 7-1/2-foot dirt
path or whatever and reflect that it is
actually a 50-foot wide right of way because
that has been the concern of the neighbors
from the beginning. Right. And again we
don't object to the smaller lot, but since it
-- and in either plan it would be a
nonconforming lot and would be entitled to the
reduced setback of 40 feet from our right of
way and so we would just ask that they be
required to covenant that they won't seek a
further variance of that setback so that the
integrity of the road is maintained and that
the house can't be any closer than the 40 feet
to the road.
With respect to there was some discussion
earlier about how the right of way should be
maintained and whether there should be a C&R
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and I think that our suggestion, and I didn't
really discuss this at length with my
neighbors, but would be there is reference in
their application and Ms. Moore's letter that
the only clearing would be that which was
required by the Southold Town Building
Department or Fire Department to maintain
adequate fire and emergency access and I think
simply language to that extent would be
acceptable and my neighbors would be happy
with language like that, but they would be
required to maintain that, but that would be
it. So I don't think know how the Board feels
about that. I think it's something that keeps
the roadway the way it is which is what
everybody wants. Over the years get bigger
and shrink, bigger and shrink depending on how
faithfully it was maintained.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What you might do is
you might go to the Planning Board meeting to
tell them that.
MS. POWERS: Oh, we will.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: During the period of
time that the County owned the property, you
know, we have it proprietarily; we didn't do
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anything to it, then we sold it to the feller
(inaudible) and that was his old assumption to
extend it at one point and leading into his
own personal property and so forth.
MS. POWERS: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what caused
most of the problem.
MS. POWERS: Right and I think now that
we've worked it out sort of a lot of this is
sort of a by the way, but there is a lot of
reference in the application of it being a
paper road and, you know, I did some research
because I had a different opinion of what a
paper road is and there's really not a lot of
authority on it. My opinion of what a paper
road is a road that's never been opened. A
lot of subdivisions in the County,
particularly out on the east end and in the
Pine Barrens, etc. where there are a lot of
paper roads where these roads appear on paper.
There are also neighborhoods and I'm more
familiar with the south fork, that's where I
worked primarily, but where the roads were
never opened and they were used as part of the
neighbors' property for years and years and
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years and that's a paper road and that's the
kind of road that's abandoned.
This road was opened, it shows up on all
the Google maps. It shows up on Map Quest.
You can get directions in through there,
everywhere. It's a road that's been open and
used and so just to clarify I don't agree with
that that it's a paper road, but since we've
reached this agreement we're going to keep the
road a 50-foot right of way and it's going to
maintain its individual character with a
separate tax number and they're going to get
their two lots. I think it's sort of a by the
way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. POWERS: I'm not sure, some of the
neighbors may want to speak. I'm not sure,
but essentially I did speak to everybody in
Reydon Heights that's here and that has
reached out to me and everybody is in
agreement that we would support the
application the way we've just laid it out.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. POWERS: Thank you for your time.
MR. GRIGONIS: William Grigonis, 470
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Columbia Road, Reydon Heights, Southold.
I got a letter that pretty much says
exactly what Eileen had put forward and it
kind of delineates that, you know, keeping it
in 50-foot just so it's in writing so you have
something -- and also I've got a map which
actually, it's got the Suttons' property. It
shows Victoria Drive and, with what transpired
outside before we came in today, I know my
wife and I, we concur that the smaller lot
size of 30,000-foot lot size is more conducive
with our neighborhood. As far as the Suttons,
they're really not part of our neighborhood,
they're the North Bayview Extension
neighborhood, which are larger lots. I mean
those are over acre to two acre lots all of
those. So I think it works out in the best
interests from my point of view and I concur
with Eileen. I'll give these for the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Thank you. That'd
be great. We'll make copies for our Board
members.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Other comments?
MR. HELGERSON: Yeah.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISM3LN: State your name,
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please.
MR. HELGESEN: I just wanted to take --
John Helgesen. I live on Summit Road in
Reydon Heights, 28205.
I've been there on the property there for
the last 50 years and I want to thank
Eileen and I want to thank Pat and the Suttons
for coming up with a reasonable agreement on
how to protect the Suttons' interest and
protect the property owners' interests and I
believe that it's going to be best with the
smaller lot size and a covenant on the right
of way. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMJ~N: Great. Thank you
for your comments. It's been a pleasure to
see some agreement.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We'd like to applaud
you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. Really.
MR. KENNEDY: Tom and Claire Kennedy, 900
Victoria Drive.
Again, just to tack on what was already
said, in the works of a compromise, we do have
some documentation that was provided to us by
neighbors who couldn't be here today that
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asked us to submit, as well as some comments
we made on the application as we saw it.
We'll put that in the record, but also, you
know, taking note the conversations that took
place this afternoon beforehand, we're in
agreement that, yes, the smaller lot size
conforms to our neighborhood and also the
addition of having the 50-foot roadway intact
for our right of way is really where our
interests lie.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very
much. We'll again put this as part of our
file and we'll have copies, Vicki will make
copies for all the Board members.
Are there other comments?
MS. GUARRIELLO: Jean Guarriello, 75
Columbia Road, Reydon Heights.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name, please?
MS. GUARRIELLO: G-U-A-R-R-I-E-L-L-O.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. GUARRIELLO: There was a reference
made to the maintaining of the road, of the
dirt road and the maintenance. In the past,
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I've lived in Reydon Heights for 16 years, and
in the past the community members of Reydon
Heights had maintained that road because it
was not purchased at that time by anybody
else. So now that all this has transpired,
the County sold the parcel to the Suttons, to
the corporation. As far as maintenance of the
road, we have seen it over the last two years
not being maintained, but I'm assuming that's
going to be addressed with the Planning Board.
If this variance is approved, they will make
sure that that's maintained.
If the Suttons do not have an issue with
it, I run a daycare and we certainly have
cleaned up litter. I'm trying to teach the
children about the community and maintaining
the community and we have on occasion taken
garbage bags and picked up litter along that
dirt road. I'd like to continue to do that if
they don't have a problem with it. So again
I'm in accordance with all the other
agreements that have been made today. Thanks
for your time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim, did you have
questions or comments?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, considering the
time, I've listened to everything and it
sounds really nice, but I honestly am still
unclear as to just exactly what the specs in
that right of way and maintenance and I just
wondered if you could clarify that for me. I
suppose -- who exactly is going to be
responsible for that because I hear 50 feet on
one side, so I'm wondering if there are
expectations of a 50-foot wide swath through
this --
MRS. MOORE: No, that's precisely what we
want to avoid.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well again that's
what I hear. I hear oh, 50 feet, 50 feet.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. I think, Eileen you
can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what
their concern is to show the 50 feet as a
right of way, technically, legally as a right
of way, but for purposes of the condition of
the road, there doesn't seem to be any
intention by anyone, including my clients,
correct, to do anything more than what is
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presently there, you know, only to the extent
I want to -- again, if the Planning Board or
the Building Department when you to go build a
house on lot 2 says we just want to make sure
you have a cleared path cause the ground is
clear.
It's just the arbor, the trees, clearing
a path of 15 feet we may have to do that.
It's our property, we own the property. We
are subject to the
it and use it, but
clients' property.
rights of others to cross
it's still underlying my
So they would have the
ability to go and put some -- if the Planning
Board said we want you to put crushed stone
for the access point to lot 2, we may have to
do that. If the Building Department says we
want you to cut back the branches and make a
15-foot cleared path on the ground as well as
the air, we would have to do that for lot 2.
I think that you pointed out the kids might
come there and pick up litter and we can't
stop anybody that has a right to use this
right of way to come onto the right of way,
the 50-feet of the right of way, but what we
don't want is to suggest to the community or
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my clients -- they want to keep everything
looking like it is. They don't want to have a
50-foot wide opening that looks like a lawn
from one end to the other. I don't believe
that's ever been discussed or expressed as a
desire here.
When the driveway goes in for parcel B
and the house has to go in for parcel B you
have trucks and you have some equipment that
has to get in there to build the house, but
that's within the rights that they have, they
own that right of way. To have somebody, to
express my opinion, but I have to, you know,
you get a crazy person in the neighborhood who
has some hatred of trees and gets -- hires a
bulldozer cause he has the money and just
clear cuts, we do not want that. We do not
want to see that. So as far as maintenance, I
don't know what -- people have a right to use
it. Maintain it, my clients don't have an
obligation to create a roadway for the
community. That was never, I don't think the
community wants that either. They want to
keep it a nice country road.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Country road.
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Country path.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. Country path and
we would like to keep it the same way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: During the course of
time we get potholes or we get whatever; whose
responsibility is it to keep it passable?
MRS. MOORE: I mean, yeah --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Or maintain that it's
passable? Evidently it's passable now.
MRS. MOORE: I think both sides would
have a right to do it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, that's a good
answer, but I want to know who has -- who's
going to have the responsibility?
MRS. MOORE: Who has the obligation? Our
legal obligation would be to have lot 2 have a
safe and passable access to Victoria Drive,
that's what they legally would be required to
have and that would be their -- the obligation
and most likely the Planning Board would
impose that obligation on the owner of lot 2.
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, what about
the rest of it to Bayview?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, 400 feet, I don't know
that anybody would want to maintain it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just mention
something?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The County of Suffolk
has owned this piece of property for like 12
or 15 years. It is by far one of the most
unique rights of way that I have ever seen in
the respect that it has a substantial amount
of sand base to it and the water runoff from
Victoria down just becomes encapsulated into
it, then it dries out and it's never really
every gotten bad.
I have transversed that property probably
500 times over the 12-14 years that the County
of Suffolk owned it, I was a -- I was in
charge of 2000 private roads and this was one
of them. I don't do that anymore and the
unique part of that situation is that we never
improved anything, but this road seemed to
always exist. It never became blocked, oh
sure in a snowstorm sometimes once in a while,
but it was so unique, it -- I don't know if
it's the encapsulation of what you're saying
with the trees or whatever it does, it's never
been -- I've never not been able to go through
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it and that's not with a four-wheel drive
vehicle, that's with my two-wheel drive
vehicle and I'm just using that as an example
here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: My, honestly, my fear is
that we don't have the discussion and we have
expectations and that's my concern.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, let's wait and
see what the Planning Board says. I mean we
can't make that determination.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that might be
good, too.
MS. POWERS: Obviously, traditionally
when there's a subdivision and there's a right
of way created or whatever, it's addressed by,
nowadays, by the Planning Board, etc. and they
file a grievance, who's going to maintain it
and how it's going to be maintained and who's
going to have responsibilities there.
Obviously this happened, the developer gave us
the right of way and then because he never did
anything with hit the property was lost to
taxes and the Suttons ended up with it so it
was never addressed, but as long as there's
some kind of -- I think everybody's in
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agreement that it is going to continue the way
it is.
You could put a covenant on it that says
just what we said that it has to be maintained
to allow emergency access and that would be
probably slightly wider than it is right now,
but not much.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Whose responsibility is
that?
MRS. MOORE: My client just said she
wants to be -- she doesn't want to have open-
ended who's going to do this, they're going to
be responsible for the maintenance of this
right of way and just keep it in its current
condition. Whatever the condition right now
is, which is sand and cleared.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
hurricane and trees
responsible to pull
Okay, so there's a
fall down, you're
them out, right?
MRS. MOORE: You asked a question and
it's going to get them all going again.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm sorry, but I have to
know this.
MR. HELGESEN: You asked a question about
what happens if a hurricane or anything else
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
like that, that right of way has been in
existence for 50 years in its current
condition and I don't know the exact number of
hurricanes that have passed in the last 50
years, there's been many more than one. Okay
and right of way stayed essentially the same.
Let's not make an issue out of something that
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not an issue, sir,
it's not a question of an issue it's a
question of expectation, okay, and if a tree
falls down in the right of way and it's not
passable, whose responsibility is it to take
the tree out? That's all I want to know.
Now, if this lady is saying that it's her
responsibility, she'll get the chainsaws out
there and cut it down, fine.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: She has
it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I want to
know.
MRS. MOORE: Right. As a matter of just
the Planning Board's procedures they're going
to make us covenant to maintain it. So we're
-- it's going to be ours --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, that you have
to -- they're going to make sure that you have
a flag. You're going to have ingress to your
lot.
MRS. MOORE: Right, well yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but that's only a
small amount of that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, but there must
be I don't know how many ways that people have
said on both the applicant and those who are
here in the audience that there is an
agreement that this right of way will be owned
and maintained by the Suttons and that it will
be maintained for emergency access but it will
be maintained as essentially a country path.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, with the same
character as exists. I believe your letter,
Mr. kennedy --
MR. KENNEDY: Yes, ma'am, I was just
going to say that paragraph 2 is requesting
exactly that just for emergency, police and
fire ingress/egress, which we've seen in the
past month we had a tree on Main Bayview and -
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I remember that, I
was down there and got stuck.
MR. KENNEDY: -- that's where they were
sending the traffic and my sister built a
house there about 35 years ago right across
the street from my house and I've used that
for -- I'm 47, so I've used it for 35 out of
47 years. That road has not changed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So and you want to
keep it that way.
MR. KENNEDY:
is.
Keep it exactly the way it
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think it's kind
of clear in your letter, which is just why I
was just kind of scanning it. The Board will
get copies of that and we will make sure that
the decision reflects the wishes that both
parties have agreed to.
Pat, you're going to make sure we get a
survey that clears up the notion of a 40-foot
building envelope and we're going to put a C&R
on that referencing maintenance at minimum 40-
foot setback from that right of way.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
You're going get
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rid of the language that not describe this as
a 50-foot right of way and you will continue
to describe the dirt path that runs through
the 50-foot right of way. We're going to see
the proposed access to lot 2 on there right
now it's described and we're --
MRS. MOORE: It's there, right? Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, yeah, I have
some crossed out proposed --
MRS. MOORE: All right, because it had
been proposed as a 25-foot right of way for
the Planning Board cause that's what they
required, but we're going take that off.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, but that's
something that you're going to have to take
out and the sizes we discussed. So if you
provide that to us, we have letters. If you
want to submit something summarizing it as far
as --
MRS. MOORE: It's on the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's in the
transcript, it's on the record.
MRS. MOORE: Did you want me to give you
a map now or do you want to write the decision
with all of these as the conditions working
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 26, 2010
off of the maps
the map that ultimately --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE:
submission.
I have and then have us file
321
-- gets Planning Board
MEMBER DINIZIO: Your map is going to
have to reflect our decision, because you're
not going to get the decision until we get the
map. So --
MRS. MOORE: That's what I'm checking to
see if you can work off the map that I have
for the decision and advise --
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just submit a
revised survey, it's not that big a deal to
revise this (inaudible) mostly, you know what
I mean.
MRS. MOORE: I would do (inaudible).
That's fine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean we have to
reference that in the decision.
MRS. MOORE: I don't disagree with you, I
was just trying to be efficient, but -- I'm --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're going to
need that for Planning Board anyway.
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MRS. MOORE: That's where I'm going to
start with the Planning Board, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So give us the map
we can write our decision, that gets
forwarded. They're going to want a comment
from us anyway. They'll get the decision with
the map that they're going to be reviewing,
the survey.
MRS. MOORE: Ail right, that's fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any other comments
or questions from anyone?
MRS. MOORE: Giving me time to get -- the
surveyor is extremely slow.
will order it up immediately,
that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
hearing subject to receipt
It's not -- I
but understand
We can close the
and the clock will
start when we receive the survey, the Board
will have 62 days for deliberation.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. Good. That's
fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can we do it that
way.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sound good? Okay.
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MR. BREITWEG: I was going to say we live
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Your name?
MR. BREITWEG: Tom Breitweg, B-R-E-I-T-W-
E-G, and Mary. We live on 95 Highwind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you just say
the name again?
MR. BREITWEG: B-R-E-I-T-W-E-G. We live
in 95 Highwood right next to the Suttons and
we've enjoyed them as neighbors very fine
people. We kind of think back to the first
Christmas we were here and the kids were
lovely kids, brought over cookies and we were
embarrassed we didn't have anything to give
them and we, every holiday, we try to give
their kids something for Easter we gave them
chocolate bunnies and they gave us nice notes.
So they're lovely neighbors and the reason why
we moved out here was because the people are
great and the community is terrific.
I just wanted to say, you know, cause we
haven't talked about this but we view this as
a compromise because honestly nobody wants to
put a house there in the community. Nobody
likes the idea. It's beautiful the way is it
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right now. To us it's a negative on the
community, but at the same time I think the
meeting here kind of underscores how great the
people are in the north fork, everybody is
willing to compromise. So we view that -- we
were here for the previous discussion, it was
kind of embarrassing, but I'm glad I don't
live in that neighborhood, but we're
supportive of it generally speaking, but we're
a little disappointed that obviously this
upset the neighborhood and some of the beauty
of the neighborhood and some of the beauty
that we recognize in the north fork, but
lovely people, lovely people that we -- the
one good thing about this is we got to meet
more of our neighbors and so it is what it is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I'm going to
make the motion to close this hearing subject
to receipt of an amended survey by Ms. Moore
for the Suttons reflecting the variety of
things we've already described 12 times and
the clock will start on our decision at that
time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using the required electronic
transcription equipment and is a true and accurate
record of the Hearings.
Signature~ ~' Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
September 15, 2010
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