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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-06/30/2010 Hearing 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Southold Town Hall Southold, New York June 30, 2010 9:30 a.m. Board Members Present: LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairperson/Member Member JAMES DINIZIO, JR. Member GEORGE HORNING - Member start to 3:10 p.m. KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney VICKI TOTH - Secretary Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 INDEX OF HEARINGS Hearing: Mary Zupa #6394 John J. Abele #6386 Sim Moy #6383 Andrew Greene #6387 Thomas and Nancy M. Spurge #6380 Charles Mattina #6381 Page: 3-11 12-23 24-102 103-115 116-122 123-153 Frank and Donna Scarola, Joseph F. Gonzales #6384 Alexander L and Tracy M Sutton #6385 Lewis Edson #6353 Nick Mihalios #6361 Marc and Deirdre Sokol #6318 Donna Perrin #6382 154-159 160-170 171-243 244-287 288-340 341-348 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Call meeting to order. Motion? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 BOARD MEMBER: So moved. BOARD MEMBER: Second. HEARING #6314 Mary Zupa MEMBER GOEHRINGER: '~Request for a Variance from Code Section 280-14 based on an application for building permit to build a new single family dwelling in addition to an existing marina, and the Building Inspector's March 24, 2010, Amended April 1, 2010 Notice of Disapproval stating that the proposed construction is not permitted unless the same conforms to the Bulk Schedule and Parking Schedule proposal is at less than the code required 80,000 sq. ft. of land. Location of Property: 580 Basin Rd., (adjacent to Southold Bay) Southold, NY. SCTM#1000-81-1-16.7. Zone: R-80. (The Zoning Board of Appeals, in its Decision # 5244 dated August 2, 2004, granted the applicant from the 80,000 sq. ft. requirement to allow the construction of a new single family dwelling, however, the grant was conditioned upon either the abandonment of the existing, legal nonconforming marina use or PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the grant of a variance pursuant to Section 280-121G that would allow the nonconforming use to continue in conjunction with the single family dwelling - a permitted use. This application is being made to fulfill this condition.)" CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Jerry. I'd like to begin by asking the Board's legal counsel, Mr. Frank Isler to provide some background to the Board on this particular application. Good morning. MR. ISLER: Good morning, everyone. My name is Isler. I'm a member of the firm of Smith, Finkelstein, Lundberg, Isler and Yakaboski in Riverhead. I'm Special Counsel to the Zoning Board and have been on this matter for many years. As the Notice indicates, in 2004 this Zoning Board granted the area variance with respect to the Bulk Schedule to allow the construction of a single-family home on this parcel which is under 80,000 square feet. The condition that was read in the Notice requires the owner, in order to get a building permit, Pugliese C0u~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 5 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to either abandon a nonconforming use that's on the property or come to the Zoning Board, as their doing today, to get an approval under the nonconforming section, which is Section 280-121G of the Code, which would allow the use to continue in conjunction with the permitted use, that being a single family dwelling. As the Board knows, the 2004 decision including the condition that I just mentioned has been affirmed through the Appellate Courts and the applicant, the property owner, is now before you today to ask you to consider the variance piece that would allow the nonconforming use to continue. You can -- you've already adjudicated essentially the area variance piece of this. Your 2004 decision contains findings under ~other criteria" of Town law that are necessary to be made to include the area variance component of this application. You can rely entirely on your record and your prior decision with respect to the variance for the area of the property for a single-family house. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 6 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 The only real issue before you today, if you rely on your prior decision and adopt it, is whether or not to allow the nonconforming use of the Paradise Point Association docks to remain on the property in conjunction with the new use. Based on my review of the facts and history of this property, I cannot see any reason why those two uses would not be compatible with each other to continue and your Code does provide for the opportunity for this nonconforming use to continue in conjunction with the permitted use. Obviously, that's going to be your decision and your evaluation. Unless the Board has any questions, that pretty much sums up why we're here today. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you. MR. ISLER: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to call upon the applicant next or their representative. MS. ZUPA: Good morning. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Morning. MS. ZUPA: I'm Mary Zupa. I'm the owner Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of 580 Basin Road. (Inaudible) thanks to the members of the Board and many thanks to their support staff for their help. What I'm here to request this morning is a variance in order that I may construct a home on 580 Basin Road and co-exist with the docks of Paradise Point Association on 580 Basin Road. If you have any questions of me, I'd be happy to answer them. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We've all been there a number of times, so I think it's fairly clear. Most board members here are quite familiar with this. MS. ZUPA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you. MS. ZUPA: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Zupa. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? MR. ZUPA: Yes. Good morning. I'm Victor Zupa, Mary Zupa's husband. I was asked this morning to be folksy and not legal. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Don't tell me you Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 brought a guitar. MR. ZUPA: As a matter of fact -- We're here to request a building permit after many years of turmoil and, as was stated in the notice and Mr. Isler stated, to allow the continuation of the nonconforming docks on the property in connection with the permitted use of a residence. So we're here to build a house, do something constructive, so to speak, but I did want to say that I really appreciate the efforts that all of the Board members have made with respect to this, currently. Particularly the support staff and the support attorney, Frank Isler. I thank you for your efforts. If you have any questions of me I'd be happy to answer them. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman, I saw you down at the property the other day. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I wish you the best. MR. ZUPA: Thank you, appreciate that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: only want to say I Mr. Goehringer, I Okay, is there anyone else in the audience that would like to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 address this application? MR. PASCA: Anthony Pasca, Esseks, Hefter and Angel, 108 East Main Street in Riverhead. We've been the attorneys for the Paradise Point Association during this whole process and I have reviewed the application. I think I said it a couple of years ago that if they ever came in with this application we would support it and we're supporting it. I just do want to note for the record, just so it's not misconstrued down the road, one of the maps shows some obstructions to our easement. There's like a hay bale line across our easement and we're not consenting to that type of construction, but I don't think that's really your jurisdiction, but it is a map that's attached to the application so I have to make a note of it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. PASCA: Other than that, we're joining in the request to co-exist and move forward on this. If you have any questions, of course -- MEMBER HORNING: I have one just for clarification on the Paradise Point Marina Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 area. Are you able to expand the dockage there at all in the future or not? MR. PASCA: I tend to doubt that would ever be possible. We've been through contraction, this has been like eight years, an eight-year process and during that process the Trustees -- we went through Trustee and DEC proceedings and the docks went from 11-12 slips down to about 7 now. So you know the way the Trustees work and I assume we probably have to come back to this Board as well -- MEMBER HORNING: So your best judgment is you will not be expanding it at any time in the foreseeable future? MR. PASCA: There are certainly no plans for it and whether it would be legal to do it or not, I haven't really thought that through, but (inaudible) it's hard to get anything done these days like that with the Trustees. I'd be surprised that it could ever happen. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to address this application? Frank, would you like to make any concluding remarks or -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ISLER: Only that based on the testimony you've heard today, you can close your hearing and proceed to making a decision. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you. Hearing no further comments, I make a motion to close this hearing reserving judgment to a later date. Is there a second? MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6386- John J. Abele MEMBER GOEHRINGER: ~Request for Variances from Code Section 280-10(A) based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's March 18, 2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning waiver of merger which states that the nonconforming lots shall merge until a total lot size conforms to the current bulk schedule (minimum 40,000 square feet in this R-40 Residential Zone District). This land merged with the adjacent property located to the south identified as SCTM #1000-70-4-41 at: 500 Harbor Lights Dr., Southold, N Y. SCTM #1000- 71-2-12." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there someone here would like to address this application? Good morning. MR. OLSEN: Good morning. My name is Gary Olsen, I'm the attorney for John Abele who's making this application having my offices at Main Road in Cutchogue. The applicant is seeking a waiver to unmerge property for tax lot number 1000-71-2- 12. This is a vacant lot in Harbor Lights, PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 identified as lot number 17 on map of Harbor Lights Estates section 1 filed June 8, 1965 and it's owned by John J. Abele who purchased the property on January 13, 1999. Mr. Abele and his wife Ruth Ann Abele purchased the adjoining parcel known as tax lot 1000-79-4-41 also known as lot number 30 on the map of Harbor Lights Estates section 1 on November 30, 1966. This property is improved with a single-family dwelling and a certificate of occupancy was issued by the Southold Town Building Department #Z2841 issued on September 12, 1967. Ruth Ann Abele passed away on May 13, 1990. Under Section 280-11 of the Zoning Code the Code provides that the Zoning Board has the ability to waive a merger. Following the criteria set forth in the Town Code for a waiver of merger, we respectfully request that the Board grant the waiver for the following reasons: 1- The lot proposed to be recognized has not been transferred to an unrelated person or entity since the time the merger was effective. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 2- The waiver would recognize a lot that is comparable in size to a majority of the improved lots in the neighborhood. This lot is 100 feet by 200 feet and lists on the Assessor's records at 0.46 of an acre and is the same size and general shape as all the surrounding lots in the neighborhood. This is a lot on a filed subdivision map designed to be part of a community of similarly sized parcels. The waiver will not result in significant increase in the density of the neighborhood, it would only be increased by one building lot. This is a residential community with homes on all of the surrounding tax lots. I have submitted a list of the 35 surrounding lots in Harbor Lights which lists whether or not each lot is improved or vacant and also displaying the size of all the lots. Every lot in the surrounding neighborhood is improved and all are of the same size as the lot for which we're seeking a waiver of merger. As is evident by looking at the tax map of the surrounding parcels as well as the list that I have submitted, this lot is PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 consistent with the size of the surrounding properties. Actually this lot is the only undeveloped lot in the community. It is a corner parcel which is bounded on the north by Harbor Lights Drive and on the west by Windjammer Drive. Mr. Abele's house parcel is only bounded on the west by Windjammer Drive and on the north by lot 17 and 18 on the subdivision map. Failure to grant the waiver would result in the combined lots forming an L-shaped parcel which would be double in size of the other lots in the subdivision and would not be in keeping with the basic rectangular shapes of the other subdivision lots. 3- The lot proposed to be recognized is vacant and has historically been treated and maintained as a separate and independent residential lot since the date of its original creation. Mr. Abele has always received two separate tax bills and has always treated this lot as a separate and independent residential lot. His intention was always to keep this lot single and separate. I have submitted to the Board letters from eight surrounding PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 neighbors all in support of granting the waiver of merger. As a matter of fact, in the letters the neighbors are saying they don't even know why Mr. Abele has to go through this process. It's clear that the neighborhood has always considered this to be an independent residential lot. 4- The proposed waiver and recognition will not create an adverse impact on the physical and environmental conditions in the neighborhood. The waiver of merger will allow for construction of one single family dwelling on the original deeded lot which will not result in a significant increase in the density of the neighborhood. Granting the waiver will not result in any alteration of the natural details, character, contours or slope of the parcel. Please note that the Harbor Lights section 1 was listed on the exception list in former Section 100-12 of the Town Code which reinforces that lots in Harbor Lights section 1 were to be considered valid building lots and although there's no longer economic hardship standard in these type of applications, the failure to grant the waiver Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of merger would be economically devastating to this applicant who has always counted on the value of this lot for his retirement. It's also very -- if you've -- I'm sure you've looked at the parcel, it's right across the street from the water. A house properly designed would have a beautiful view of Southold Harbor. If the Board does not grant the waiver of merger, this lot effectively would be worthless to Mr. Abele. There has been precedent set by the Board in granting waivers of merger in similar instances. In fact, the Board has granted waivers of properties which it had previously denied such as the Taggart application Zoning Board file #6295. If there was ever an instance in which the Board should grant the waiver of merger, today's application would be the one since all the standards of the Code have been satisfied and met by this application. Accordingly, it's clear that we've met all the criteria set forth in Section 280-11 of the Town Code and I respectfully request that the Board grant the waiver of merger. In my opinion, this is the model application for PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 which the waiver of merger should be granted. There's one more extenuating circumstances, Mr. Abele has entered into a contract to sell the house parcel to a buyer who's entitled to the $8,000.00 tax credit under the recent Stimulus Package. In order to take advantage of the tax credit, the closing of title must take place no later than today, June 30, 2010. This contract is contingent on the granting of the variance. I have formally requested, at the Board's request, a letter asking that the Board render a decision this morning if at all possible. We have a tentative closing scheduled for this afternoon pending the decision of the Board and that letter was sent to the Board on April 30, 2010. I appreciate your time and consideration and would request, again, that you grant a decision today, if you can. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Mr. Olsen. MR. OLSEN: You're welcome. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just state that I think your application is complete and the criteria are compelling. The Board did PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 discuss your request and at the time the Board was rarely, you know, votes on anything that is not before them in a draft form. All of the things that you have now entered into the record clearly stated in the decision, I will poll the Board and see if there is any interest in changing that. The general procedure would be to make that decision at the next special meeting. What's the date of that? That's July 13 BOARD SECRETARY: July 13. CHAIRPERSON WEISMA-N: -- but I will at your request here, before the public, poll the Board and see whether or not the Board is willing to do anything -- MR. OLSEN: It's an unusual time and we are -- actually our office is absolutely swamped with closings because everybody wants to close by today so that people can take advantage of the tax credit. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand. MR. OLSEN: And actually this process started I believe back in March when we applied for a Notice of Disapproval from the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Building Department so we could get before the Board but, because of the timetable of the Board, today was the earliest date that we could get. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. It's an unfortunate time all the way around. Let's see if there's anyone else in the audience -- MR. OLSEN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- or if the Board members have any questions of you. MEMBER HORNING: I'd like a little clarification on this tax issue that you're talking about with the Stimulus Package and why today is so important. MR. OLSEN: Because the Federal law says that in order to take advantage of the $8,000.00 credit closings have to -- contracts have to be signed and the closing has to take place before June 30, 2010. MEMBER HORNING: That's stated in that law and there's no extension or anything? MR. OLSEN: Not that I know of, but actually just mentioned that he thought that he had heard that it may be extended another Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 three months, but I don't know. Actually, from Mr. Abele's standpoint, we're really requesting this not for him but for his buyer, but I don't want to risk closing the house parcel and then find if the Board doesn't approve our application that he is left with a lot that's not buildable. So it's really the buyer, the buyer's attorney that's requesting this, but it's kind of -- my experience in my office that it's across the board all bank attorneys and everybody is being pressured as we are to get these things done. It's tough, but -- MEMBER HORNING: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see what else comes up. Are there any other questions from the Board at this time? Is there anyone else in the audience would like to speak to this application? MR. ROMBOLI: Bruce Romboli, I right across the Good morning. My name is live at 240 Windjammer Drive street from Mr. Abele. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please spell your name for the record? MR. ROMBOLI: R-O-M-B-O-L-I. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. ROMBOLI: My wife and I have had a home here for over 20 years and Jack has been a very good neighbor and I'm here on behalf of my wife and some of the other neighbors in support of his application. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. ROMBOLI: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Anyone else? Okay, we can close the hearing, but let me ask procedurally how we want to do this. Do you want to close the hearing then discuss at the end of the day the possibility of entering an earlier decision or MEMBER GOEHRINGER: problem with it. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't have any Either do I. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- find out what people feel? We certainly will close the hearing I would presume. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes? MEMBER HORNING: All right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yup. Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: discuss this at the end of want to do it now? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: to you. Do you want to just the day or do you No, it's entirely up CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm going to close the hearing cause it has nothing to do with rendering the decision. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I'll make -- hearing no further comments or questions I make a motion to close this hearing, reserve decision to later time. Is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6383 - Sim Moy MEMBER HORNING: "Request for Variances from Code Section 280-124 & 280-116 based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's January 12, 2010, Updated March 15, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning construction of a new single family dwelling, at (1) less than the code required minimum rear yard setback of 35 feet, (2) less than the code required setback from a bulkhead of 75 feet at; 750 West Lake Dr., Southold, NY. SCTM #1000-90-2-1. (adj. to Little Peconic Bay and dug Inlet)" CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there someone here would like to address the application? MR. ROSENBERG: Good morning, Madame Chairwoman, members of the Board, my name is David Rosenberg. I'm an attorney, the address is 666 Old Country Road, Garden City, New York. I represent the applicant today. I think the Board members have all seen the property, they're familiar with the application. At this point, I would like to introduce our consultant, Bruce Anderson, from PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Suffolk Environmental Consulting who I think is well known to this Board and I think Mr. Anderson will make an initial presentation and then we also have an engineer available to answer any questions to the Board as well as I am prepared to answer any questions of any of the Board members. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: My first question is is it B-E-R-G or B-U-R-G? MR. ROSENBERG: B-E-R-G. I have a card I can present to the Secretary. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you, Mr. Rosenberg. MR. ROSENBERG: So Madame Chairwoman, I'd like to introduce Mr. Anderson. CHAIRPERSON WEI SMAN: Yes. MR. ROSENBERG: Again, I think the Board is very familiar with Mr. Anderson on other applications as well as -- CHAIRPERSON WEI SMAN: Yes. MR. ROSENBERG: -- some other matters that have been presented before the Town Board. MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk Environmental Consulting with offices in Main Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Street, Bridgehampton. I have two exhibits that I'm going to pass up to the Board. The first one is simply a copy of the tax map (inaudible). The second is actually two aerial photographs that cover the same area this shows that the nature of how this neighborhood is developed today. In this application the applicant proposes to construct a 1,061 square foot single family dwelling with an attached deck. This would be a two-story dwelling containing three bedrooms. It would be served by a septic system. There's also public water available to the site. The lot in question is known as lot 119 of the subdivision map Cedar Beach Park which was filed in 1927 and the property lies within the Town's R-40 zoning district. The parcel is a pre-existing nonconforming parcel which (inaudible) lot area and is a recognized building lot. The subject parcel is also in the (inaudible) of what is actually a peninsula located at the mouth of West Lake. It is bulkheaded on three sides. The bulkhead is in good condition. In addition, today the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 engineer is also here, Joe Fischetti, who can answer any questions that pertain to the design of the house, the condition of the bulkhead and any of the methodology relating to the construction of the house. We're here requesting relief from Section 280-124, which provides that the lots under 20,000 square feet the rear yard setback be a minimum 35 feet. Review of the application, including a survey, shows the dwelling would be 31 feet from the rear lot line, which would be that lot line fronting Peconic Bay, the relief of 4 feet is required from that description. The second area of relief is from 280-116 which establishes a 75-foot setback from bulkhead on lots adjacent to tidal waters. As I said, we have -- are a peninsula we are basically surrounded by bulkheads. The dwelling with attached deck would be 24 feet from the westerly bulkhead and 27 feet from the southerly bulkhead. So relief of 51 and 48 feet is requested, respectively. The neighborhood as shown on the attached map and the accompanying aerial is clearly PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 residential in nature. The vast majority of lots are under 40,000 square feet and, therefore, are nonconforming just as this lot is nonconforming. You'll see that the houses are of moderate size and the house that we've proposed is in the small range of houses that are found in the area only consisting of 1,061 square feet. We've defined 26 lots that surround West Lake including the bay front and of the 26 lots that are there 10 front on Peconic Bay. All of the lots fronting on Peconic Bay are bulkheaded and none of the lots contain structures and houses that are setback 75 feet. So every house fronting on Peconic Bay is nonconforming with respect to the 75-foot bulkhead setback rule and the second aerial that's attached to your exhibits provides some measurements as to how far they are back from the bulkhead. You'll note that there's a house directly across the inlet, which is also surrounded by bulkhead which would provide a 15-foot setback off the bulkhead fronting the inlet and 39 feet from the bulkhead fronting the bay. So we are consistent with how we've Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 laid out this house. We believe that we meet the variance criterion in that there would be no impact to the character of the neighborhood, the property is typical for the neighborhood. The dwelling structures would be of minimal size at 1,061 square feet. It would be setback from the southerly bulkhead to an approximate equal extent as other dwelling structures having frontage on the bay. In addition, the rear yard setback, which would be the distance between the dwelling and mean high water, would be similar for this lot as for other structures and houses fronting the bay and it is setback to a greater extent than the dwelling on the other side of the inlet and that relates to that setback from that bulkhead fronting the inlet. We submit that the benefit we seek cannot be achieved by any other method other than the granting of an area variance because the lot is of limited size being 8800 square feet and because it's bulkheaded on three sides, it cannot be developed without variance relief. We don't believe the variance sought would be PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 substantial because we're constructing a small house. The rear yard setback of the dwelling plus the relief requested is only 4 feet from the 35 feet that's required and as the bulkhead setbacks requested are similar and typical for that (inaudible) the neighborhood. We do not believe -- we submit the granted variance will not have an adverse affect on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood because all best management practices have been incorporated into this project design. You should know that the project already benefits from a New York State DEC tidal wetland permit. It also benefits from a Trustee wetland permit. The best management practice that I referred to that are going to be applied here include a septic system that would be suitably elevated above the ground water table would properly serve the dwelling to be erected. We would contain all runoff from the project by installation of gutters and leaders and drywells and we would comply with the Town's drainage standards pertaining to stormwater PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 runoff. We would deploy a continuous line of hay bales and silt fence around the perimeter of the dwelling so as to preclude any short term construction-related erosion impacts either into the inlet or into the bay and the land will be suitably stabilized by vegetation upon completion of construction. The proposed driveway would be a gravel material and therefore permeable. A 14-foot non-disturbance buffer has been required by the Trustees and the property owner intends to comply with the requirement. No grading is proposed at the site and the fill that is proposed is contained solely within the area for the septic system. That amount of fill, 180 cubic yards is necessary for the proper construction and function of this septic system. In your records you will find a statement from your local LWRP coordinator that will deem this project to be consistent with the Town's LWRP. You'll also find a letter from the Soil and Water Conservation District who opine that there are no natural resource PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 concerns relating to this project and that the bulkheads are in adequate condition. The Conservation District is recommending that low-maintenance grasses or native plants are to be utilized on the site and that a silt fence be installed along with a hay bale line, that roof gutters and downspouts be used and the applicant intends to fully comply with the recommendations of the Conservation District. Finally, the hardship here is not self- created because this is a pre-existing nonconforming lot in the zone in which it lies and is recognized by the Town as a building lot. The applicant has sought to minimize the variance relief requested through project design, maintaining a small house trying to maximize the setbacks as best we could and, therefore, it's our contention the benefits to the applicant, if the variances are granted would outweigh the detriment to the health, safety and welfare of the neighboring community. The benefits to the applicant obviously in this case would be the ability to develop the property in accordance with its intended Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 use which is residential. The development of the parcel is in a manner consistent with the development patterns of the neighborhood. So it's not an impact upon the health, safety and welfare of the neighborhood or community and based on that we believe the project, the variances sought should be granted. That concludes my presentation. As I said, we have Mr. Fischetti here to answer any questions related to any questions related to the construction of the house and also the design of the septic system. He's also inspected the bulkhead. He's also familiar with the access. There may be neighbors here who wish to speak on it. So in the interest of moving things along, I'm done and I'll answer any questions that you may have or perhaps they should be held towards the end. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to do that, should we just reserve our questions or is there any -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, let's do that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- one who has a question at the moment? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, let's write it PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down so that we can -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I had one setback question, but that's fine I can reserve it. Let's move on. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. ROSENBERG: I just want to comment on one or two things Mr. Anderson said and again that was the two aerial photos he handed up today. Again, the proposed structure will be setback no closer to the Peconic Bay, Little Peconic Bay, than the other houses if you look along the entire strip there from the aerial photograph it's pretty apparent. In fact, there are some houses west of the inlet which appear to be even significantly closer. The other thing is as far as a change in the neighborhood or anything else similar to the last application, which was on the waiver of the merger issue, this is the only lot that I see that is still available on the south road here of Little Peconic Bay and it's certainly going to be residential consistent with the other areas. I would also like to bring to the Board's Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 attention, perhaps it is aware of or perhaps not, I would ask the counsel I submit to counsel a decision by the decision by the Appellate Division on the application made to the LWRP permit before the Town Board of Trustees, which compelled the Town to issue that permit. There are certain findings in there which I think may or may not be relevant to your determination, but certainly it finds that the proposed structure which is the same structure we're talking about today, was reviewed and at that point the Court compelled the Town Board to issue the LWRP permit. So I'd like to just hand up both the Appellate Division case and the underlying Supreme Court case by Justice Rebolini to counsel, if I may. ASST. TOWN ATTOP~NEY: Thank you. MR. ROSENBERG: Members of the Board, the only other issue I know that there has been some discussion and there was prior discussion about this West Lake Road. There is a right of way there, nothing that the applicant is doing will interfere with any rights to anybody else on that right of way. We're not PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 going to be blocking that right of way, we're not going to be interfering the right of way to the extent those rights exist to any other adjacent property owner or member of the Association, they will have those rights. So I don't -- I understand there were one or two letters submitted by people who raised an issue as to whether or not the driveway or anything else would interfere with the right of way, it will not. If anything, it will actually improve the access for those people who have existing rights in the right of way because where now it's just this grassy area it will now be improved with a gravel driveway. So to the extent that anybody has a right, it will not be interfered with. To the extent that anybody doesn't have a right to use that, there's no impact of that because there's no interference with their rights at all. So I think that is an issue which is really not necessary for consideration by the Board. At this time, Joseph Fischetti. professional engineer. I'd like to introduce Mr. Fischetti is a I'd also like to -- I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 think this Board is in fact familiar with Mr. Fischetti before, but for purposes of the record, I have a CV I'd like to offer for him, if I may. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. FISCHETTI: Good morning, members of the Board. Joseph Fischetti, Hobart Road, Southold. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning. MR. FISCHETTI: I was retained by Mr. Moy to complete architectural designs for a modest home on that property because of the recent changes, recent September changes in the FEMA requirements we had our FEMA zone change from an A zone to a B zone, which required the house to be designed on piles. I inspected the property and the bulkheading and the bulkhead is in very good condition. The piles themselves are friction piles and will not have any affect on the bulkhead during the construction or support of the home. Access to the property is very easy, should have no problem with the construction. We've designed a retaining wall around the sanitary system which is a requirement because Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of the high water table and the requirement for keeping the bottom of the sanitary system two feet from groundwater and that's the reason for the retaining walls and the additional soil conditions. I'd be glad to answer any additional technical questions that have to do with this project. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would that conclude the formal presentations that the applicant wants to make so I'll open it up to questions from the Board. MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, Madam Chairperson. The only thing I would like to obviously reserve some time if there are any comments from anybody in the audience to respond to that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure. Certainly, no problem. MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Who had a question? MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Barron -- who is this fellow here? MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Rosenberg. MEMBER HORNING: Rosenberg, sorry. Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ROSENBERG: No problem. MEMBER HORNING: I'm curious, can you just give us a brief synopsis of this court case decision regarding the issuing of the LWRP? MR. ROSENBERG: The Board of Trustees originally turned down the application for consistency finding under the LWRP. We objected to that, we commenced a proceeding in Supreme Court and we were successful. Justice Rebolini granted our petition and found that the Board acted arbitrarily and capriciously, not your Board, the Board of Trustees, in denying that permit. The Town then appealed it and the Appellate Division affirmed the finding of Supreme Court finding that the Board had acted in arbitrary and capricious manner and granted -- directed the Board to grant the LWRP permit, which it did. There were some issues raised there which I think were relevant to this application, but there was a question for example about the possible impact of the sanitary system on the lake and the Court found that to be unwarranted objection because there's no basis Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4O ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 for it and the design had in fact been made so that there would be no adverse -- potential adverse or significant adverse impact. There were some questions raised by the Objectants at the time concerning West Lake Road, those were also found not to be warranted for any basis to dispute the LWRP consistency finding. There were questions of procedure, the fact that Mr. Terry, who had originally initialed the consistency finding, the Board of Trustees then decided to go out and get another expert not only to render a different opinion and the Court found that to be inconsistent with the normal procedure and for all those reasons the Court found that the LWRP permit should have been granted and in fact it was, which then gave us the ability to come back here. Again, I would only point out, as Mr. Anderson is already emphasized, that this is a pre-existing lot so there's no question of self-created. The hardship in fact was created when the Town's zoning code evolved with a lot that they've owned in single and separate ownership now for more than 40 years and this -- in fact, the lot was originally Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 mapped back I think in 1927. So certainly until these new imposition -- the new imposition of the new and more sophisticated zoning requirements came into play this never would have been an issue and it's -- that's why it is not self-created and that's why we believe we have a very meritorious case on the basis of the pre-existing nature of the lot and the prior nonconforming use of the lot and the single and separate ownership of the lot for the past 40 years, but certainly we have done everything we can to mitigate any possible concern. Again, as Mr. Anderson pointed out there is not one home that we found adjacent to the bulkhead that is in fact within the 75-foot current limit which didn't exist at the time we acquired the lot and in fact the house on the other side of the inlet is going to be closer to the inlet bulkhead than our home will be. To the extent that there was any concern, any construction traffic or anything like that, we'll be able to access the house from the east so we won't be going near the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 bulkhead. We'll be able to have the access come right through the adjacent property. We have the adjacent property's permission, which as you probably know, is a related party, but it's single and separate ownership. So we're not going to be running any construction trucks right up against the bulkhead although Mr. Fischetti and both the Soil and Conservation District have indicated that the bulkheads are all in very good condition. MEMBER HORNING: (Inaudible). We have in the application file here the letter and the permit from the Board of the Town Trustees dated July 22, 2009 which approves the project, if I'm looking at it correctly. MR. ROSENBERG: Court's decision. MEMBER HORNING: Right, that was after the Right and we have another letter from the local Waterfront Revitalization Program dated June 21, 2010, which finds it consistent. MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. MEMBER HORNING: Are these the only two documents that are pertinent to the case right PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ROSENBERG: MEMBER HORNING: regard? MR. ROSENBERG: No. -- would you say in that In the application we also have a wetlands permit from the Department of Environmental Conservation, which I think would be persuasive to your determination, that they have also found that this proposed structure is consistent with their own regulations and guidelines for the issuance of a wetlands permit. MEMBER HORNING: I meant in regard to this court case decision that you were talking about, regarding the issuance of a consistency document from the LWRP and the Town Trustees, all that had been cleared up and these -- MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: -- documents relate to all of that clarification, the Trustees has approved the project. MR. ROSENBERG: Right. MEMBER HORNING: The LWRP has issued a letter of consistency. MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. MEMBER HORNING: Thank you. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Also sir, there are no other appeals pending from the Town of Southold regarding this from the other prior Boards? MR. pending, In fact, ROSENBERG: There is no other appeal there's no other application pending. now that we have the LWRP permit we're here for the variance application and hopefully if that is resolved we will submit the application for the building permit. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question of Mr. Fischetti? MR. ROSENBERG: Sure. MS. RICHMOND-GERSHON: Mr. Fischetti, how are you this morning? MR. FISCHETTI: Pretty good, thank you. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Two quick questions, you mentioned the types of pilings that were going to be driven, what did you call those? MR. FISCHETTI: Friction piles. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, what does that mean? MR. FISCHETTI: Basically there's the piles themselves support the structure by the friction of the pile. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. FISCHETTI: What we do is we hammer the pile down with a rig that's consistent and we find out exactly how much that pile can hold. So it's held by friction and not by any loadings other than that so there's really no lateral loads that are going to affect the bulkheading on this house. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just came in contact with the reconstruction of the inlet down there by Atlantis recently and my question to you is the installation of these pilings is this going to cause any negative effect to the houses, more particular to the house to the east? MR. FISCHETTI: No, none at all. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: When you're driving them? MR. FISCHETTI: Not at all. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is strictly a driven situation? MR. FISCHETTI: Yes, it is. It is a driven situation there are vibrations, but they don't permeate that far out from the piles themselves. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, the other issue in reference to the sanitary system, you know, we've had many comments from you and many changes on prior applications and I consider you to be somewhat of an authority in reference to the position of these sanitary systems and you've been very helpful in some of these situations. Can this present septic system and the -- I refer to it as the (inaudible) system or the cement walls that are going around it, is this going to be elevated above grade or is it going to be pretty much on grade? MR. FISCHETTI: Yes. I don't remember how high up. I think actually we've -- I've eliminated a large portion of some of the -- which we had originally had, so we need to elevate I think it's maybe 50 percent of the area is really what's required and some of that is only two feet above grade. So it is above grade because we have to elevate these tanks so that the bottom of the tanks are a certain distance from the ground water. So yes. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And of course the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 reasoning for me asking that question was that in a normal situation we could put drive-over covers on them and they could be used as a portion of access to the parking area or whatever the case is and you're telling me in this particular case that is not -- MR. FISCHETTI: Well, first, one of the requirements from the Health Department is that the sanitaries not be placed in driveways. That would require, if I placed it in the driveway, we would have to get another variance from the Health Department, but I'd have to tell them that there wasn't any other place to put them where there really is. So these have been designed so that they're not placed on a driveway and they're out of the driveway area. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's your opinion that and I'm asking -- it is your opinion that this is the best place and maybe the only place that this sanitary system could go? MR. FISCHETTI: That's correct and I've tried to put it in its best place, that it met all the requirements of the Health Department with this design. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Goehringer on the Plan, which Mr. Fischetti prepared, there is an elevation showing the top of the retaining wall by the septic tank and I was just -- he can specify it for you. MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, we've kept the -- the retaining wall is basically about 18 inches, it refreshes my memory cause I remember it to be about one foot or two feet. There are a couple of requirements for that retaining wall where the pitch from the top of the wall -- let me step back. The requirement for the retaining wall comes from the requirement that the pitch from the top of the sanitary system is to be 5 percent. If you can't keep that 5 percent within 20 feet, then you have to have a retaining wall and because of the -- that's the reason because we were constricted that was the reason for the retaining wall. As you can see, we've tried to locate that outside the driveway area, so this is the only place that the sanitary can be located. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the natural material in an around that area that whole Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 system is usually some consistency. MR. FISCHETTI: Yes, we sandy soil. We do have -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: the retaining wall. MR. FISCHETTI: Oh, retaining wall. sort of sand bank run do have, yes, I meant the top of the top of the MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, as a finished product, that's what I've seen in most of these. Is that usually what's going to be done now? MR. FISCHETTI: You want to keep a permeable soil all around that -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. FISCHETTI: -- all around those leaching pools. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. FISCHETTI: The top of it would be topsoil. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh you're putting top soil. MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it could be planted then? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, it will be planted. The top will be planted, it could be grass area, it could a nice area, but it doesn't have to be -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But it will be approximately 18 inches above grade? MR. FISCHETTI: Yes, point, yes. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: setback questions actually, at the highest Okay, thank you very Okay, I have so whoever wants CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Anderson's aerial view shows 22 feet from the bay bulkhead. to address that whether it's Joe or counsel or Bruce. MR. ROSENBERG: I'll try and if not I'll call on Mr. Anderson or Mr. Fischetti. well Mr. feet and 27 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, I see that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. The survey it's -- on the Notice of Disapproval is saying 31 feet, which according to the survey looks like to the corner of the deck where the 26.3 or the 27 feet are to the steps, proposed Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 steps. MR. ROSENBERG: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so I just want to clarify that the dimension of 31 feet is to the corner of the deck, whereas here it would look like it's being shown at 27 feet on this aerial? MR. ROSENBERG: Madame Chairwoman, I'd like to stress to you Bruce did this late yesterday for presentation purposes and I think he did that not to -- I don't want to say it's to scale, but the survey, the actual application is the 31 feet which is the correct one. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. ROSENBERG: And I think that's more from him just using the satellite map to -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. I just want to make sure these numbers are consistent that's all. MR. ROSENBERG: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that's an approximation, the survey and the Notice of Disapproval is accurate at 31 feet to the corner of the proposed raised deck. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the other dimension is to the steps, which is 26.3 and 22.7 there. Okay. So that was one question. The other question that I have is with regard to the proposed driveway. MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I see that the proposal begins the gravel driveway actually on the -- in front of along the easement, let's call it or the access way in front of the adjacent property and continues along and then curves onto the subject property. MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I don't seem to see many other driveways of any kind along -- on these properties. It all seems to be pretty much grassy area that people are just pulling up on. Can you explain why that long driveway that is not on the subject property is proposed as opposed to accessing it simply by the existing right of way? MR. ROSENBERG: Right now it is a grassy area because nobody really goes to the west of that last existing home. I think in Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 consideration of both the existing home that's there and for the ease of use of the applicant there should be some gravel driveway put down there because otherwise I think you'd end up with muddy ruts especially, you know, after it rains or anything like this. This will allow the driveway to be maintained in a safe condition without tripping hazards or without ruts or without potholes and it would allow for any water that would otherwise go on a mud tire track to accumulate. This way the gravel will allow it to percolate down. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's -- well, go ahead, talk to me a little bit more about that. MR. ANDERSON: I just want to add one additional point. I believe it is the Building Department's requirement that driveways be finished minimally with gravel the context of any building project. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, driveway that's on the premises, okay, subject property. I'm talking about the proposed gravel that is not on the subject property and -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 well the on the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ANDERSON: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. ANDERSON: It's consistent with what we have next door and you'll see if you would go to the aerial view you can see that structure setback 55 feet from the bulkhead. MR. ROSENBERG: Two lots to the east of the subject property. MR. ANDERSON: That's actually the other Moy lot, that's a garage and you'll see that the stone driveway that goes out into the right of way so we're basically just extending that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: come back. Okay. Well, I'll MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Bruce, here's the problem, okay, we had an application similar to this over on Gin Lane. This application has not been denied for 280A, which is improved access, okay? It is to the benefit of any applicant to deal with 280A for access to this particular piece of property, not necessarily the interior access of it, as the Chairperson has discussed, but at least to the tangent of the property, all right, and this PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 is an issue that has not been addressed, okay, to date on this application and it can be dealt with two ways. Okay, it can be dealt with by rewriting the Notice of Disapproval and indicating after going to the Building Department and requesting a 280A access which is really the proper way to do it because you're never going to get a CO without a 280A access. Okay. That means meeting New York Town Law minimum standards, okay, for fire and emergency vehicles. All right and that's what needs to be done in my particular opinion. I am only one Board member and so I am just mentioning it, I'm throwing that out to you, okay. MR. ~2qDERSON: You do know that as you read State Law 280A that I believe its 10 feet is presumed adequate for purposes of emergency access. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're not raising what the width is for one house. Okay, I am only raising what the bed has to look like to support emergency vehicles. We're talking 30 to 40 ton, excuse me, 30-40,000 pound vehicles. Okay, 24 hours a day 7 days a week, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 okay, 365 days a year. MR. ANDERSON: Well, can speak to that. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. maybe Mr. Fischetti Pardon me? Goehringer, I would also like to suggest that if the Board is favorably inclined to grant the application and make that a condition, whatever the condition is if it's state highway or any commercial -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We may not be able to do that because you have not -- it has not been addressed in the Notice of Disapproval and that's why I'm suggesting -- my suggestion, I'm not speaking for the Board, I'm suggesting that you go over to the Building Department and do that, but that's entirely up to you, okay? I, you know, issues that come up, again, this is a strictly democratic organization, okay, there are some people that don't believe that, some people that do believe it. I'm telling you as a fireperson for 43 years, okay, and I certainly believe it and I certainly attest to it and I have to tell you PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 that in the past application that we had over on Gin Lane, that person had a 280A and they were able to get a CO on their property. On their property, okay, I'm not positive that's going to happen here. Okay, you may come back in a subsequent application and I'm just mentioning it to you. Okay? MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Goehringer, if I could ask, and again the Chairperson, though I do many of these hearings I have not had the honor of appearing before this Board before, but frequently when a Board imposes a condition or if, in fact, there is a condition for a CO which we would have to deal with the Building Department, this is the application for a variance on certain setback requirements. Certainly if there is an additional requirement that we need to get a CO, the Building Department would, I'm sure, bring that up and I'm even further suggesting that my client would be prepared to make, accept any condition that you would impose that requires us to comply with whatever reasonable requirement the Board has. Again, we're on the application before the Board PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 right now for the variance for the setbacks and I think it would be an unnecessary burden on my client to first have to get a disapproval and then come back again because this issue can be handled either by condition or strictly through administrative and ministerial task of the Building Inspector and it's when the building permit is issued and when the CO is issued to make sure that the road or the driveway that we have complies with whatever town or state requirements there are. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I could not agree with you more, okay. Except for the fact that without the Notice of Disapproval saying it must meet 280A standards, we don't have the ability to go to the Town Engineer and say this is what we propose in reference to, meaning from this Board, okay, and we need you to review those. We have a new law which reflects of course the issue that Mr. Anderson so eloquently stated and that was that all water runoff be maintained on the property and so is the particular case and I honestly believe that no piece of property is flat, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 okay. So therefore if some minor little drainage is required by the Town Engineer it would behoove you and your client and all of these wonderful people that came before us today to be aware of the fact that we need a plan, okay, to get to this property and the plan that we need is New York Town Law 280A, which is approved access. So that's just my suggestion to you and I'll leave you with that particular point. I don't mean to belabor this. MR. ROSENBERG: And we appreciate that and we will certainly do whatever we have to do to comply with that. I would only remind the Board and counsel of the Board that I appreciate the concern, but I think procedurally since we have the disapproval of the Building Department application and it raises these two things that we are here before this Board today and we've made our presentation based upon those two, I'm prepared to go even further and suggest that we shall do what you have requested, but I don't know if that would be a basis for this Board to either defer or deny or delay the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 consideration of the application as it presently exists. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: I think this is just point of information and -- MR. ROSENBERG: Yeah, I -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- we'll proceed as applied for; however, I -- MR. ROSENBERG: We've accepted that and we will certainly consider that and do whatever we have to to satisfy emergency services and the highway. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to see if other Board members have questions. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, certainly the access and that state law have hazard standards, hazard standards for how an access way has to look for one house or five houses and how wide it has to be and all that is written in there now. I mean I can only assume that the Building Inspector is going to make you comply with that anyway. Now, whether or not you have to come before the Zoning Board for that access, I'm not quite understanding Jerry's point of view, but he honestly every time that he's asked for PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 it seems to come back. So you know -- and I've never understood it, but again if it's -- and I agree that if it's not in the Notice of Disapproval I don't know how, why we'd consider it. I would just state that we are independent minded people, all five of us, and we all come to our reasoning independently and it may behoove you just to get it from the Building Inspector, you know, ask him and let us know what he says. MR. ROSENBERG: To me it almost sounds, in no way minimizing the situation, but at this point for example the insulation in the attic and the insulation between the walls, I mean if we require R-19, we're going to have to do R-19. MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. ROSENBERG: if we don't have it Yeah. The Building Department won't give us the CO or when they look at the plans and it's not specified on the plans, we won't get a building permit. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well particularly access to the property. I've been on the Board for over 20 years, okay, with Mr. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Goehringer, he's been longer, and I can only say that any time that Mr. Goehringer has 280A up, okay, we wind up seeing it. ROSENBERG: And we will comply with brought MR. that. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you know I just think that, you know, that that should be all that's said about it and come on back, you know, or send us a letter, tell us what the Building Inspector said cause we do follow his lead. MR. ROSENBERG: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: Sir, one -- I'll seek another clarification for the record, based on the aerial photograph showing the Moy property and the inlet and everything, the adjacent parcel and I think you stated already was Mr. Moy's also? MR. ROSENBERG: MEMBER HORNING: Yes -- with the building lot -- the building already built? MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. MEMBER HORNING: So and he is in agreement with the access and improvement, necessary, standards; PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 if of the right of way to meet state is that correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, he is. MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thank you. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last question I have is -- go ahead, Ken. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You said the adjacent property is also owned by the MR. ROSENBERG: No, it's applicant. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: asked? MEMBER HORNING: MR. ROSENBERG: applicant? to owned by the Is that what you No. The adjacent property, the applicant is Mrs. Sim Moy and the adjacent property is owned by Mr. Dai Moy, her husband. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: Right, but they are in agreement to upgrade the road to meet -- MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, in fact, the Moys are present in the room. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: Okay. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last question I have is the issue of elevation of the house at present grade so that we can discuss the issue PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 64 MR. ROSENBERG: MR. FISCHETTI: MR. ROSENBERG: 7-1/2 or so? 7-1/2. So it would be about 6- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 of the deck. What will be the finished grade of elevation that the house will be at it's highest point to the first floor? MR. ROSENBERG: I'm looking at the survey here and Joe maybe you can answer the question, it looks like the first floor elevation will be at 14 feet. MR. FISCHETTI: I think that was raised because of the FEMA requirements. MR. ROSENBERG: It was previously at 11 and they raised it now to 14. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's going to be 14 feet out of the ground? MR. FISCHETTI: No, 14 feet elevation. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Elevation of 14, what's the lowest floor from grade in your opinion, Joe? MR. FISCHETTI: The height. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The height so to speak. MR. FISCHETTI: From the grade right now that would be (inaudible). 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 1/2 feet. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 6-1/2 feet up. MR. ROSENBERG: I'm looking, don't forget, FEMA required that for any possible potential for flooding underneath the house. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yup. MR. ROSENBERG: I'm looking for example at a couple of the elevations on the survey where it shows 7.3, 7.5, 6.9. So if that's the existing elevation and the first floor elevation will be 14, there's roughly a 6-1/2 foot difference. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. Thank you. Where's -- I'm sorry, where's the elevation 7.3? MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Schneider, you have the same map I'm looking at. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. MR. ROSENBERG: For example, the lower right hand corner is elevation 7.5. I'm looking over here where there's a well right I see -- see 7.5 now. here of the inlet, it says 6.91. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I Okay. MR. ROSENBERG: Yeah, okay. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 It looks like there's a 2 or 3-foot range in the elevation on the existing lot now. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to hear if there's anyone else in the audience that would like to address this application. Please come forward and state your name for the record at the microphone. MR. GUN/q: Thank you. My name is Peter Gunn. I live at 2145 Little Peconic Bay Lane in Southold and also on West Lake. I'm also the President of the West Lake Association, as such I've written a letter to the Board -- I think the Board is in receipt of it -- with a number of concerns. I don't want to bore the Board or the audience with that letter per se, but I do have a couple of questions to try to clarify the numbers that are being shown as elevations and distances on this drawing before you today and the one question I have is we just heard that the elevation difference from the 14-foot finished first floor elevation to the grade in the front of the house is 6-foot differential and I would ask Mr. Fischetti does that platform or stoop as shown on the drawing -- I PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 think it shows it to be 4 feet plus the stairs coming down, which will be about another 8 feet, actually project the entire house forward to the 12 foot, according to the drawing here. I don't believe that the numbers shown as setbacks to the stair and setbacks to the platform agree with that -- those computations. I would just like to ask Mr. Fischetti to see if he can explain this or CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Did you want clarification of what the setbacks from the deck and from the steps that lead to the deck from the bulkhead are? MR. G UNN: Well, not -- no, it's from the -- I'm talking out in the front of the house. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In front, okay. MR. Gl/N-N: Well, I call it the road front. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The road front, okay. MR. GUNN: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MR. GUNN: That was one of my major concerns and my other concern was with regards Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to the drive. It is a double drive on the side and it comes extremely close to the dug inlet bulkhead and Mr. Fischetti says that the bulkheads were in good condition. Was he referring to all bulkheads or was he just referring to the bay front bulkhead? I think that really needs clarification and the other issue that I bring up is that if you drive into this driveway how do you get out? Do you back all the way out or do you in some way turn around without -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Winding up in the - MR. GLYN-N: -- winding up in the drink? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Perhaps we'll see who's representing the applicant would like to address that particular issue or those issues? MR. ROSENBERG: I think I'll ask Mr. Fischetti to address a couple of things, but I would say and again Mr. Gunn was -- I was unsure whether he was talking about setbacks. Originally he was talking about elevation. I would say regarding the elevation that the total height of the house, with the elevation PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 that's required under FEMA, is going to be well below the height limitation of the zoning ordinance. So we're not asking for any relief from that whatsoever. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. ROSENBERG: As far as the turning movements, Mr. Fischetti -- MR. FISCHETTI: If I could comment again on the elevation level, which is what Mr. Gunn was really concerned about, the elevations. When I stated the elevations we have the new sanitary system on this profile, you have on the survey, is elevation 8. So we're going 14, that's 6 feet. So basically the whole front yard has been raised because of the grade of the sanitary system. So the existing grades that are there already are around 5-1/2 and 6. We're raising those to 8 and we're, again, we're 14. He raised a good point. This is a complicated project we probably would have a turnaround. So maybe the dotted lines that are shown there, we would probably have a turnaround so that you don't back out. That's up to the obligation of the, you know, of the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 final designs of the driveway itself and there's enough room in here to do turnarounds. That's not in there and I won't even address it at this point. As to the driveway being close to the bulkheads, yeah, that's fine. I don't see it as a problem. The bulkheads are in good condition, both the dug inlet and all the way around. So that having a car drive within 2 feet of the bulkhead will not cause the bulkhead any damage. So those are my -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask a question cause I too had some concern when I was inspecting the site about the proposed, which I am now learning, despite the fact it is on the survey, your opinion. MR. FISCHETTI: is not final designs Well, as I said, the If the Board wants that in point is the turnaround. an actual exact drawing of the pervious driveway on the property line, we have the access coming in here, we might have to -- I would not want them to back out and I guess that's probably an error on my part or an error that we just eliminated. Normally you PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 would have an area where a car could do a two- point turn and then turn around. I have not analyzed that, so the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think that's something that would be very important. MR. FISCHETTI: Sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Another thing is the possibility of a -- it's not terribly wide, but nonetheless a -- MR. FISCHETTI: But for clarification I'm saying that we have the room in here to do it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you do. MR. FISCHETTI: As the attorney says, we can back out into the easement and make the turn around, it does not show it. MR. ROSENBERG: MR. FISCHETTI: MR. ROSENBERG: The right of way. The right of way. Which we have unfettered access to. To me it looks almost like a one- family home with a single driveway. I back out into, instead of what would be the street, you'd back out into the right of way. MR. FISCHETTI: It does not show it and we can show it if the Board wishes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can do that, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 you don't have to drive out you can back out, but there is some concern about the safety of backing out or even driving in very close to what is the water. I mean I'm not talking about necessarily the structural integrity of the bulkhead. I'm talking about the safety in the dark of somebody driving in or driving out that close to water and wetlands also. There are some -- I did it myself when I inspected the site. MR. FISCHETTI: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I do understand what some of the issues are in terms of circulation on that site with a vehicle and on the adjacent sites. In fact, I backed up on the adjacent property so that I wouldn't be -- have my wheels that the bulkhead. MR. FISCHETTI: close to the marsh or to There's nothing in there that's allowing you to -- there's no designation of a driveway. There's no designation of landscaping or anything that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: not at the moment. like Not on the -- well, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. FISCHETTI: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why I think it's perfectly valid to talk about the design of the vehicular access in and out of this property and along the right of way, which the Moys -- MR. ROSENBERG: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- or any other property owner who has the right to use would be using. So that is -- that's one of the things that I think I'd like to address. MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So are there any comments; did that clarify your questions? Are there other comments from the neighbor that you would like to be reflected in the record? MR. GUNN: Yes, that's -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Come forward, please, Mr. Gunn. MR. GUNN: Mr. Fischetti did not address the question with respect to the condition of the bulkhead. He -- CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: On the inlet side? MR. GUNN: On the inlet side. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. GUNN: He attested that is in good condition and I referring to the bay side, but quite honestly I don't the bulkhead suspect that he is which is brand new, know how old the inlet side is, and I do know that it is deteriorated because quite honestly there are sink holes and every bulkhead gets sinkholes in time. So I simply would ask are you testifying that the bulkhead is in good repair on the entire site or just -- that was my first question and my second question is -- was with regard to the measurement of 35.9 to the property line from the stoop and then the measurement -- it's hard to read it. the CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: survey, Mr. Gunn? MR. GUNN: Yes. The CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you looking at same one. You want to know what the setback to the stoop from the property line in the front yard is? MR. GUNN: That's clearly defined as 35.9. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, I believe that's Code compliant. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. GUNN: Yes. Oh, here it is. Then there is another measurement to the same property line of 30.9 showing a stoop which is 5 -- or stairs of 5 feet in run. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. MR. GUNN: I don't think that is physically possible. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's see who wants to address that then. I think I should clarify for you, Mr. Gunn, the setback of 35- point-something feet to the house is considered a conforming setback for front yard. The steps are not included in calculating the setback. They are permitted by Code and they do not have to be included in the setback. MR. GUNN: I understand that. All I'm saying is from a -- your perspective and our perspective when you look at this really the numbers just don't add up. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You think you can't get up that high with that horizontal run; is that what you're saying? MR. GUNN: The maximum allowable is 8 inches to step up. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On the riser. MR. ROSENBERG: Madame Chairman, I think you answered the question of whether it counts for the difference to the landing and the steps which are excluded from the calculation of setback to the structure. I would like to ask Mr. Fischetti just to nail this down. I've heard him say it twice now, but with the Board's permission I'll ask him again. Mr. Fischetti, did you examine all of the bulkheads on all three sides of the property? MR. FISCHETTI: The determination is the structure is sound. There are some sinkholes in there where some sand does go through the area, but that does not -- the bulkhead is structurally sound. So it's really a terminology of who's asking me what the -- what's considered okay or good condition. It's good condition structurally. There are some sink holes and there are some soil which is kind of normal and those are usually handled with a filter mesh and back filling and not from having to reconstruct the bulkhead and that was by (inaudible) question. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you know who is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 responsible for the maintenance of that bulkhead? MR. ROSENBERG: The Association (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So the bulkhead is the responsibility of all those neighbors who belong to the Association? MR. FISCHETTI: I can't answer that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm trying to find out and put it in the record, that's all. MEMBER DINIZIO: All three sides. Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please come forward. MR. ROSENBERG: Mr. Gunn in his letter ot the Board acknowledges that the inlet is maintained or the bulkhead of the inlet is the responsibility of the Association. MR. GUNN: I beg your pardon? MR. ROSENBERG: In your letter, you indicate that the Association is responsible for the maintenance of the bulkhead of the inlet. MR. GUNN: No sir. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. If there's going to be discussion, everyone has PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to be at the microphone. Well, I believe there was some concern in that letter expressed to the fact that if any damage to the bulkhead was undertaken during the construction of the proposed residence that the Moys would be responsible for repairs. MR. ROSENBERG: Yes and they certainly have a -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was the request of the Association. MR. ROSENBERG: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How does your applicant feel about that? MR. ROSENBERG: We have no problem with that. In fact, as a matter of fact, we have been doing that all along because we are there and we see it and we've always maintained it and we'll continue to do so. MEMBER DINIZIO: But who is really responsible for, you know, that peninsula and the bulkhead itself? I mean is it the property owner or is it the Property Owner's Association? MR. ROSENBERG: I know the Association Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 has maintained the dredging of the inlet. I know that, but if the bulkhead is on our property, then Mr. Moy is -- okay, so it's on the applicant's property and we would be responsible for -- MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. ROSENBERG: MEMBER GOEHRINGER: MR. ROSENBERG: No, the inlet side. MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. ROSENBERG: fronts on West Lake, On all three sides? Uh -- Two sides. Peconic Bay side and Right. The north that actually I don't think that's within our -- I don't think that's actually our property. That's beyond -- outside of our property line. MEMBER DINIZIO: But that's where the right of way is going, I mean that's where your driveway is going? MR. ROSENBERG: No. actually coming off the The driveway is right of way. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I mean if that's -- it's going to be closest to the bulkhead upon which you have no -- MR. ROSENBERG: No, no. Actually, Mr. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Dinizio, if you look at it, if you look at it that bulkhead is (inaudible). MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, yeah. MR. ROSENBERG: The one that I think we're concerned about is the inlet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So the inlet bulkhead is owned and maintained by the property owner? MR. ROSENBERG: The applicant. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The applicant, right, as would be that portion along Peconic Bay that is running along the subject property? MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whereas the West Lake bulkhead is -- the Association is responsible for that. MR. ROSENBERG: I would think so. I'm not sure who actually owns that, but that -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That goes along that and is actually parallel to the easement that the Association has the right to. MR. ROSENBERG: Correct. A right of way. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right of way. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER HORNING: May I ask a question on that also? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: I would ask the attorney for clarification on the maintenance of the right of way then also, besides the driveway. Your applicant will maintain his driveway, will build a driveway. Who is actually responsible for the 280 access and the right of way? MR. ROSENBERG: The applicant will maintain any part of the right of way adjacent to its premises as of now Mr. Moy does on the part that's adjacent to his premises. MEMBER HORNING: Does anybody know if this Association has any responsibility regarding the maintenance of the right of way? That's my question. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Mr. MR. GUNN: Okay, a little Gunn can -- history here. These are all roads in there, in the entire subdivision of Cedar Beach Park so if you look at your drawing and look at the West Lake Drive where it ends at the dug inlet, that is the corner of the Moy property. The PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 bulkheading that goes beyond that on -- yeah, that goes beyond that and sticks out into West Lake and goes easterly, is part of the Cedar Beach Park right of way. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And it's going to change -- MR. GUNN: In other words, we have other bulkheading within this Cedar Beach Park. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand. Now, is that maintained by the Cedar Beach Park? MR. GUNN: There has never been any need to maintain it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If it fails who would be responsible for repairs? MR. GUNN: We are, yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Association. MR. GUNN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that's all we need to understand. MR. GUN-N: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: And the right of way, who's responsible to maintain the right of way? MR. GUNN: Over the years Mr. Moy has Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 kind of -- because nobody was using it -- incorporated it into his front yard and maintained it, a grass area, and up until -- in fact, he's planted some trees they're partly on the right of way, they're partly on his property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But you've heard -- you've heard testimony here. MR. GUNN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And we can condition any relief we grant with the fact that the Moys have indicated that they will continue to maintain unobstructed access to that right of way to anyone whose rights are involved. MR. GUNN: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: that continues to be resolve the problem. MR. GUIxIN: Yes, the Okay and as long as case, that should CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Is there anyone else here who has questions on the Board and would like to speak to this? Okay, please come forward and please address those things that we have not yet Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 it does. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 heard because applications, on this one. (inaudible) with other we've spent a good deal of time We've blown it, so please direct things that we haven't heard. MR. CASE: My name is Jerry Case. I live at 505 Cedar Point Drive West on that body of water. I think the water is the key to what I want to say. This piece of property is three sides on the water and we're talking about three feet here, five feet there above or beyond or below the needs. We're talking about a sanitation system that the Town Trustees arbitrarily were not crazy about and I don't want to take a gamble with our water. We're having enough trouble in American right now with our water and I don't like to see something that we're guessing might work go through and have all these animals and life put into danger. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Please come forward and state your name for the record. MR. KAMINER: I am Kiam Henry Kaminer and PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 we own two properties on West Lake, 130 Midway Road and the adjacent one, 250 Midway Road. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please spell your name for the record? MR. KAMINER: Yes. Henry Kaminer, K-A-M- I -N-E-R. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. KAMINER: And the whole attraction of this whole development is that we're on the water and we are very concerned about the periodic dredging at our expense, of the inlet and we are very concerned that we must have access to that bulkhead by that road so that if we have to use trucks to remove the fill or whatever it is, we can do that and we're very concerned about the possibility of any damage by collapse or by soil coming over or something to that inlet. That is one of our main concerns. Another concern is, as I understand it, the zoning laws have to do with the Town wanting a certain spacing of houses for safety and for privacy and for aesthetics and for health reasons and minor changes are often granted, but major changes of variance is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 another story and I think that the Moy family wants clearly to have a, what you might call, a family compound. I'm all in favor of that, I like that myself, but I think that they have a way to accomplish this without this much difficulty if they would only build on the other side of the existing structure. I think it would be easier for them to get approval within the law if they would build their additional structure not on this tiny little piece of land, but on the -- I guess it's to the east of their existing property, would want to do that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like counsel if they to ask a question; would you please come to - MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would your client object to imposition of covenants and restrictions regarding the maintenance and unencu~Dered access of the existing right of way to any Association member? MR. ROSENBERG: We would have no objection and, Madame Chairperson, just so you understand as far as the right of way goes, we Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 can't do anything to interfere with anybody's rights there. So whatever C&R you want to impose as a condition, that just really restates the obvious or whatever the legal requirements are, I certainly don't think we would have to extend that right of way to anybody else who doesn't have an existing right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, certainly not. MR. ROSENBERG: And certainly we're not going to interfere with anybody who has an existing right, and as far as maintenance, again, we would be prepared to covenant that we would maintain the existing right of way in front of the applicant's property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and with regard to conditioning this relief, should it be granted, in terms of the agreement to repair any damage to the West Lake bulkhead and the right of way that may inadvertently take place as a consequence of construction? MR. ROSENBERG: We would have that obligation if we were negligent in somehow causing damage during construction. We would have that obligation, so I have no problem PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 again providing expressly for that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. I have no further questions. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a quick question. Yes, I have a question for Mr. Fischetti, please. Hi, Mr. Fischetti. MR. FISCHETTI: Hi. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm looking at your elevations here, specifically the proposed grade of 10 feet. Okay, that's throughout the whole perimeter of the house? MR. FISCHETTI: Let me get my drawing. Okay. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The proposed grade is -- the proposed elevation is 10 feet. It indicates natural grade at around 7, I guess that's an average taken. MR. FISCHETTI: It says, yes, natural grade. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And on the survey now, I'm looking at the survey, on the sanitary section it looks like the highest point is 8.2. MR. FISCHETTI: Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 Yeah, there's a conflict ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Where is the conflict? Is it in the elevations proposed? MR. FISCHETTI: Probably in the architectural drawings. They tend to be a little loosy on the elevations. The site plan and the surveys are -- should be governing. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. MR. FISCHETTI: When we do that, we're -- on the architectural drawings when we were doing that is just try to draw steps in the -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: To make the steps fit. MR. FISCHETTI: To make the steps work. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. MR. FISCHETTI: So if it's 8, then in essence the grade would come down. So we would comply with whatever the site plan is showing on architectural drawings. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The only problem I have with it is that it looks like there's going to be an extensive amount of fill brought onto the site. MR. FISCHETTI: We'll go back to not using this -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Don't use the 10-foot Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 elevation? MR. FISCHETTI: As I said, this is -- don't use the 10-foot elevation. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MR. FISCHETTI: We would use the elevations that are done on the site plan cause that is the engineering designs that are done by the site plan. This tends to be a little bit -- this was an elevation that was done for your purposes after drawings and in essence that's in error. It should be down to 8 and the steps would then change. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, so then a proposed finished grade, average finished grade for this project would be what? MR. FISCHETTI: Basically it would -- we would not be -- well, that's a hard answer because we have a proposed finished grade on the sanitary side of 8 and we have some existing grades on the other sides that change, that may be 6 we're talking about 7 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: or 7. I would assume and 8. 7 and 8. Could we ask the engineer to provide a grading plan or topo? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. FISCHETTI: We could get a little -- if you're interested in something that's more specific for around the house -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, specifically so we can -- MR. FISCHETTI: -- that would be fine. It tends to be a little bit -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- see how the driveway is going to work so it's not a huge slope into the bulkhead, how it affects the adjoining property as far as slope goes. MR. FISCHETTI: Not a problem. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Drainage. MR. FISCHETTI: We can do that. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Where things -- maybe in 1-foot contours? MR. FISCHETTI: Sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually, I was going to propose a specific design for the use of the right of way and the driveway in terms of (inaudible). MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, I'm looking at -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So while we're doing that, we might as well incorporate the contour intervals to show -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. FISCHETTI: Not a problem. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the contour intervals to show what the gradient is going to be and on-site drainage. MR. FISCHETTI: We'll do that -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Septic and whatever with more detail. MR. FISCHETTI: Okay. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Was there any preliminary calculations of the amount of fill that may be incorporated in this job? MR. FISCHETTI: 180 cubic yards is the sanitary. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 180 cubic yards just for the sanitary. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) different. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's the area just enclosed by the retaining wall? MR. FISCHETTI: That's correct. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I have no further questions. MEMBER HORNING: For Mr. Gunn, please. CHAIRPERSON WEISNL~IN: We have one more comment from the audience and we've got one PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 question from a Board member. MEMBER HORNING: I would like to ask again cause I'm still trying to sort this out, let me ask this floating dock to the north of the Moy property, just to the north of this right of way, whose floating dock is that? MR. GUNN: It's a dock that Mr. Moy installed. MEMBER HORNING: property? MR. GUNN: No. MEMBER HORNING: question is in terms But it's not on his Okay. My specific of this right of way, in your estimation, whose responsibility is it to maintain the right of way? Does the Association have any legal obligation to maintain the right of way? MR. GUNN: We maintain all the rights of ways. MEMBER HORNING: If someone was required to turn it into a certified 280 access, whose responsibility is that? You have in your documentation that you, Association somehow goes down to the bulkhead at the inlet for maintenance purposes. IF this was required to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be a 280 access -- MR. GUNN: Right. MEMBER HORNING: -- whose requirement-- who it? MR. GUNN: Let me ask this. heard of this 280, but does -- this in your estimation is required to upgrade I've never MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A. MR. GUNN: A or whatever the rule is, is covering private roads? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: It's legal access to a lot and it has to do with fire protection, Mr. Gunn. MR. GUNN: Well, all I can say is West Lake Association is like a separate group from the Cedar Beach Association, but it's within the Cedar Beach subdivision and over the years both organizations have maintained the roads and maintained clear passage. You know, these things tend to grow in and close in on you and we have contracts with -- there is people who do this maintenance, fill in potholes. MEMBER HORNING: Sir, let me be specific again. If in fact the Moy property is PuglieseCou~ Reportingand/ranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 required to have 280A state access, is your Association obligated to provide that for them? MR. GUNN: I would think not. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I explain this -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Very briefly because we have got to move on. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Specifically it's up to the Moys to provide the access to their property. MR. GUN/q: That's correct. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, over your, meaning the Association's, land. Okay, after they have done that, I would suspect, this is only an hypothesis, that it would be up to the Association to maintain it after they built it because it is their need to get to their property. All right? Now this is not into the property, Mr. Gunn. property. MR. GUNN: Yes. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is to the Whatever they choose to do after the property to create a driveway into their property, this is to the property, to the access of their property. So in doing Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 so, in gaining that 280A, okay, they in effect, maybe not formally, turn it over to the Association and the Association would then be responsible. That's my take on it, okay, and I'm just telling you that may or may not be the case, but I'm trying to answer a question and facilitate the hearing at the same time. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I think you dragged it out a little longer cause I just have to say this. Access to a lot has -- you have to have access to a lot to make it buildable and that access has to be maintained well enough, the trees cut, you know, a certain height away. MR. GUNN: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Wide enough, the base has to be enough to hold a fire engine. You know a truck, anything emergency that's going to come there, that's what this 280A is all about. It's all about fire safety and public safety. Now, again, I think that that particular aspect of this is not the subject of this hearing at all because the only way that that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 gets to us is if the Building Inspector looks at a map and says this lot requires access, okay, and he will be the one ultimately to say whether or not the drainage is needed, what the base has got to be. That's all set out in standards in the Code and we used to do it, real long driveways. I mean we have one I think the next hearing. I mean there was the subject of a 280A hearing that probably lasted how long, Jerry? Six months. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Forever. I mean they're still talking about it, but I think this particular lot I think when you talk to the Building Inspector you're probably going to find that he's going to make sure that access to that lot is built and access to that lot is maintained and we can, we can put it in as a condition if we have to and he probably will if we so choose to grant it. MR. GUNN: I do know that as West Lake Association we do carry liability insurance for West Lake Drive. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we've address these sufficiently and the applicant has already agreed via counsel to covenant the maintenance of their portion that is adjacent to their property. 280A will come up in another context and not here. One neighbor, apparently, wanted to make a comment before we close this hearing or we adjourn it to another date, depending on what this Board wants to do. If you'd like to come forward now, make the comment, and then I'm going to suggest we adjourn -- MEMBER DINIZIO: May I just make one more statement. Mr. Gunn is a customer of my security company, I just wanted to acknowledge now that he's a partner in my business or anything like that. He sends me a check every six months, dutifully, and you know I just want you to know there's full disclosure that he's a customer of mine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, fine. There's no need for recusal on that? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I don't believe so. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not going go bang him if he doesn't pay me. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just as closure. MS. CASE: I'll be quick. Constance Case, 505 Cedar Point Drive West, Southold. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MS. CASE: And I just -- my understanding is that the original objection to this approval of this application was on the basis of the variances that seem to me to be huge and I just want to -- I didn't hear anything that changed that situation at all and I just request that you think about that. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you. All right, we're going to -- we have requested some additional information from the engineer, the applicant's engineer. If you'd like to make a concluding statement -- MR. ROSENBERG: housekeeping issues. No, just to address the I understand that we're going to make some inquiries of the building Department for the 280A situation and inform Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the Board of that. Mr. Fishcetti may make some indication on the plan about the traffic movement and circulation to get out of the -- back out of the house and the other thing is somebody on the Board I think Maybe Mr. Schneider or somebody or the Chairperson suggested some grading or landscape plan, which we will do. If it's the pleasure of the Board, perhaps, I suggest that the hearing be closed and we can submit all of this to you prior to your next meeting, which is think is -- BOARD SECRETARY: July 13. MR. ROSENBERG: July 13, is that doable, Joe? Joe is saying yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want more testimony? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but I mean the 280A is part of something that needs to be done. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You want to do that, okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: close it until we get MEMBER HORNING: I don't think we should the information -- Yeah, I agree with Jim, especially the main -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right. We may have questions regarding the grading plan, the design of the driveway and possibility of 280A being incorporated into any relief we need to grant or conditions we need to impose. So what I'm going to do is make a motion to adjourn this hearing subject to receipt of the information that counsel just stated into the record to August August? BOARD SECRETARY: -- what's the date in August 26. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: August 26tn at -- BOARD SECRETARY: 1:30. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 1:30, you want to do it? Okay, we're going to adjourn this subject to receipt of that information to August 26tn at 1:30 p.m. All interested parties may reappear. The information that our office will receive will be part of the public record and may be accessed through FOIL in our office by any concerned or interested individual. So if any of you would like to see before the haring what the applicant has sent into our office, you're welcome to inquire at our office. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Do we have a time by which time we want to get this information in? You should give us at least like a week or so before the -- MR. FISCHETTI: You'll have it all before CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- hearing just so we can review it before in case we have questions. MR. FISCHETTI: the end of July. MEMBER HORNING: You'll have it before Good. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, great. Okay, so that was my motion. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6387 - Andrew Greene MEMBER MORNING: "Request for Variances from Code Section 280-116(A) based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's March 24, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning construction of an accessory in- ground swimming pool at less than the code required setback from a bluff of 100 feet at: 30653 Route 48, Peconic, NY. SCTM #1000-73-4- 5. (adj. to Long Island Sound)" CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, George. Good afternoon everybody. MRS. MOORE: Good afternoon. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, before we begin, I do want to state something for the record with regard to this -- not this particular application before us, but with regard to a previous application that this Board heard last year just about this time, which had to do with an accessory apartment in an accessory structure. At that time, the Board granted a decision, rendered the decision that required the applicant to either remove the nonconforming use or attach the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 accessory structure to the principal dwelling. The Department inspected and observed recently that none of those things have been done. No action has been taken and it continues to have two bedrooms in the second floor of the accessory garage. I only bring this up because it is an awkward situation when there is an enforcement issue of prior variance where relief has been granted, conditions imposed, and for the last year no action has been taken; therefore, it is not in accordance with the previous relief granted. So to have this Board consider additional relief or yet another application with a previously outstanding situation on other relief that was granted is at best asking us to be extremely generous and gracious in hearing this application. MRS. MOORE: May I speak on that? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You certainly may. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. As you know, yes, I was going to discuss that at the end of the hearing, but certainly we can discuss it now. That application was rejected and we were given alternatives. We PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 followed Covenants and Restrictions that have been filed and I have a copy of it -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have it. MRS. MOORE: You have it in your file. Those covenants allowed the applicant the opportunity to wait to see what would happen with the accessory apartment law, which has been -- it started the discussion of that law, as you know, was about that time and it's just recently within the last couple of weeks finally got decided and approved. So my client really had no -- their lifestyle, their personal situation, they are -- they were at a point where they didn't know which way to go. This law would possibly be beneficial to them to put this -- one of the options is to connect the building, the main structure to the accessory building and that infrastructure and the cost, it was a significant cost and it would be a significant architectural design change to the house. So that would not be the first choice given and given the fact that the code was being changed and it did make provisions for that in our C&Rs because we PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 knew that that might come about if the law was available for my client, then potentially they could come before the Board and ask for relief. All the improvements are there as you saw from your own inspection. You inspected at the time of this hearing it was not at a time when we asked for an inspection, you -- the Code, the decision said when the work was done and after the work was done the floor plans were to be submitted and the Board would have the right to inspect to confirm that it had been done. They haven't done anything yet. They did not ask for an inspection and they are really at a transition point now where they have to make those kind of decisions, but I don't believe that it stops you from making this -- from us making this application. The pool application has no bearing on this particular -- on the prior application for the accessory building. They have to deal with that accessory building, no doubt. They know it, they have - they just don't know which way to turn with respect to how to deal with that building. So Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I assumed you would be stating those exact reasons, but I still want to point out that it was perfectly possible -- I read the C&Rs and the C&Rs essentially indicated only that should the law be changed they had the right to revoke the C&Rs -- MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- preventing them from ever applying for that as an accessory apartment. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: However, it did not give them the right to do nothing for a whole year. That could have been - the bathroom could have been capped off the shower could have been capped off. The beds could have been removed. It and unused. MRS. MOORE: could have remained empty But to do that would be several thousands of dollars to remove the infrastructure that's there in order for them to then make an application and have to put it all back. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't have to Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 remove the entire Nevertheless, I MRS. MOORE: it. So -- infrastructure. Well, that's the way we read CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't want to argue or overdo this discussion, specifically in the interest of time, but it is important to reflect upon the fact that a Board is now considering -- being asked to consider additional relief when, in fact, the applicant is in violation of previous variance. All right? That's all I'm going to say about it and I'm quite prepared to open this hearing to hear about the pool, but certainly this applicant must move very quickly -- MRS. MOORE: They're going to have to make a decision. At this point the law is in place, so we know -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what your options are. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that's all I want to say on that. MRS. MOORE: Pardon me? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the options, they will be reviewing those options and -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: When the law was in the new parameters and acting accordingly they'll either have to apply to this Board for relief -- MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: -- if they qualify, whether they have to remove the nonconforming use or they will have to attach it. Those are the options. Let's move on to the hearing that's before us. Unless, counsel, did you want to add anything? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, I'd like to give you some advice on this after this in executive session; if you would like to make a motion? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You want to do that right now? MEMBER HORNING: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To executive session? Let's do it now, okay. We're going to recess to executive PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 session for five minutes. MEMBER HORNING: I'll make the motion. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: be fine. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ten minutes? Ten minutes should I'll second it. We'll be right back. (THE BOARD WENT TO RECESS FOR EXECUTIVE SESSIOIN AND LEFT THE HEARING ROOM.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, what we're going to do now is take advice from our legal counsel and we've opened the hearing on the pool application. What this Board has decided to do is to adjourn without a date and without prejudice for this application so that we may have the information from the applicant as to whether or not they are in -- either one of two things, are in compliance with the previous decision or are applying for compliance with the new accessory apartment code and we -- MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, maybe I -- you're opening the hearing. Am I going to submit all the testimony today -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we won't be taking testimony today. We've opened the hearing so that we can discuss this application and we would be -- MRS. MOORE: So we are making this-- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We are -- We have opened the hearing on the swimming pool. We are going to adjourn it without taking testimony so there's no bias in any way and we will be revisiting that application. We're going to adjourn it without a date and then it will be up to the applicants to either comply with the previous decision and then we will take a look at the swimming pool application or if they don't comply with the previous decision to then comply with the new accessory Town Code either to come in to us for relief or whatever is required by Code. MRS. MOORE: I just -- I would just object to the fact that you're not taking this application and our -- I mean we're here, we're ready, we have everything submitted. I -- again, I don't believe that the application PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 for the pool has anything to do with the accessory building and, just as a matter of information, my client has maintained the permit with respect to being able to do the changes to the interior of the building under a building permit. They have continuously paid the Town to continue that permit in order to be able to make the interior changes to comply with your decision or ultimately to connect it. The garage, from the aerial photograph you have in your own file shows that it was eligible for a C of 0 at the time that it was under construction and the Code, you know, the new law allows we can make that application as long as the garage was eligible for a CO prior to that magic date and off the top of my head I don't have that date. So -- but for your information we don't -- we've tried to keep the options open by paying the Town to extend the building permit with -- so that we can make the changes to the interior when the decision was made. So it seemed to me that they were attempting to comply with your decision, all the options, the fact that the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 new law was coming into being and we didn't know what it would say and it's been out there for two weeks. So not being able to just, you know, at this point I would -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, listen, Pat, this is certainly -- I mean your client is in violation of the Code here. It's certainly a terrible precedent for this Board to set if we were to consider additional relief from the Code when there is a violation of the Code pursuant to a ZBA determination. MRS. MOORE: But I would professionally disagree that we don't have a violation because we have a building permit that's been extended in order to allow the modification to the interior of the building and if we -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Do you did have an approval in hand for an accessory apartment right now? MRS. MOORE: Not without an application to this Board. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay, so you're in violation of the Code, correct? MRS. MOORE: No. I'm sorry, without it being used as an accessory apartment, I mean I PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 don't know that there has been -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Again, there is a decision of this Board that's in place. Pat, you can disagree with the advice that's been given and that's fine. We are professionals MRS. MOORE: That's fine. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- you can fight it. I understand that you disagree. I believe that you noted it on the record. MRS. MOORE: Yes. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And you know what your opportunities and your obligations for your client are to proceed. MRS. MOORE: Okay. All right, so I guess you're opening it for anybody to comment, but not me. So -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No. We're not going to take any testimony. MRS. MOORE: Oh, from anybody, okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, certainly if we took testimony from the public we would take it from you. MRS. MOORE: Okay. I don't know (inaudible) already. That's fine, so it's PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 without a date at this point? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, so I'll make a motion to adjourn this application without a date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6380 Thomas and Nancy Spurge MEMBER SCHNEIDER: "Request for Variance from Code Section 280-124, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's November 20, 2009, Updated February 18, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning "as built" deck addition at less than the code required front yard setback of 35 feet at: 3273 Manhasset Rd., Greenport, NY. SCTM #1000-43-1-9." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, is there anyone here to address this application? MS. MARTIN: Good afternoon. CHAIRPERSON WEISM/LN: Hi. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good afternoon. MS. MARTIN: Amy Martin as permit agent for Nancy Spurge the property owner. I am an employee, office manager, and permit agent for Fair Weather Design Associates and (inaudible) in Greenport. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Amy, we need two green cards, they are missing. MS. MARTIN: They are still missing. I have gone to the homes and left the paperwork at the neighbors' houses and one is in Tucson, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Arizona and one is in Brooklyn and we have not received them back. They may have come in today's mail, actually today's mail doesn't arrive until now, so I will bring them in when they come. If you care to keep the hearing open until those are received, we understand. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MS. MARTIN: Basically, the reason we're here is because the applicant did apply for a permit to build a second story addition and at that time it was realized that there was a deck that had been changed, added to the front yard setback on this flag lot. The front yard is determined by a right of way that goes to an adjoining property through this property. The property is a nonconforming lot. The home is too small, the second story addition was bifurcated from this and they were allowed to do that. That has been done and there are no proposed changes to the existing deck, but it does exist at 24 feet from the right of way. There is a previous ZBA determination about this right of way in 1966 when the property was created and the determination says that the Board finds that this right of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 way would become -- they were concerned about it being just left as a mud driveway and they had asked that it be -- ~it is the opinion of the Board that the bank run should be put on the right of way from Manhasset Avenue north to the point where the applicant has access at approximately 249 feet and that the right of way should be accessible to ambulances, fire trucks and all other emergency equipment." It remains so. There have been no other obstructions. This is a lawn area and basically we're just here for relief from that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I think we all went and did a site inspection. It's a very private right of way. It's a wide right of way, unobstructed and it certainly has no visual impact whatsoever as far as I can see on any adjacent property and certainly that's in keeping with the character of that neighborhood so I don't have any questions, but I'm going to poll the Board. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Let me ask a few questions. Can you describe the right of way, the rest of the right of way? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MS. MARTIN: It's grass. It ends at where this person's driveway is and the rest of the right of way is grass until the fence of the property that has not been developed, I believe, next door. There is a tree there and I don't think that's an actual obstruction, I think you can go around it on either side if you had to get an emergency vehicle, but it's not paved across this property and there's no -- I don't know whether that 249 feet is to where it ends currently or whether that's to MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, what I was getting at is the right of way continues on past other parcels -- MS. MARTIN: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- which have access at another road and how would you describe the right of way? It's fully treed and it's not improved, correct? MS. MARTIN: It's unimproved. The property that it -- actually there's a fence at the next property that goes across the right of way. It's sort of a no-man's land because there's already another driveway that Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 does behind this right of way. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So this right of way pretty much the accessibility of it ends at the applicant's parcel? MS. MARTIN: Um -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The ease of accessibility I should say. MS. MARTIN: No, the -- well, the easement -- yeah. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The easement continues, the right of way continues -- MS. MARTIN: The easement continues, but it's not developed, it's not being used and there seems to be another driveway behind that and the properties on the next block and I'm not actually sure who would access this at this point. It is not -- it's unused. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct and the other parcels that adjoin the continuation of this right of way have access to this road. Is that -- Anders (sic) Lane. MS. MARTIN: Anders (sic) Lane. So there is another interior lot adjoining that is undeveloped and other than that, it also is where several tax maps meet and it's very hard PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to discern, you know, how it continues, but there is no use past this driveway of the existing right of way. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, that was basically my question. MS. MARTIN: In simple form, yes. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: About the deck, I'm looking at an older survey that shows a wood deck in approximately the same location as the one being applied for as an as-built. MS. MARTIN: Um-hmm. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I guess it was just added onto during new construction or something or -- MS. MARTIN: No, the new construction had nothing to do with this deck. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MS. MARTIN: The applicant has owned the house since 2000 and sometime in that time period, I'm not -- however, about five or six years ago they needed what was a small little entryway into the house whatever into this deck and this has nothing to do with anything new. They don't intend to try to make it any larger or do anything to it, they just want PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 permission to have a CO for it. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I'm looking at a survey from 2000 showing that deck. The dimensions are slightly different, but basically the same location. MS. MARTIN: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I have no further questions. MEMBER HOHNING: Just one. What's the reason for an updated Notice of Disapproval from the previous one? MS. MARTIN: We did not apply for ZBA in time the first time. You have so many months to do that and we did not do that within that time period. MEMBER HORNING: No other changes are --- MS. MARTIN: None whatsoever. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No questions. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else in the audience wish to address this application? Hearing no further comments, I'd like to close this hearing, reserve decision; is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionServlce (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6381 Charles Mattina BELLMATT PROPERTIES, LLC MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for Variance from Code Section 280-124, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's March 1, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning deck additions at less than the code required front yard setback of 35 feet at: 545 Koke Dr., Southold, NY. SCTM #1000-87-5-14." MS. BISHOP: Good afternoon. Stacey Bishop, (Inaudible) Construction Services here on behalf of Mr. Mattina who is here with us this afternoon. Basically, Mr. Mattina just completed a modular home. On the original plans for the modular home was incorporated a 5-foot sliding glass door outside his master bedroom with the intent on building this deck to enjoy the bay views across the street from him. There was some sort of mistake with respect to the architectural plans that were submitted by the architect and the deck wasn't included. By the time we got this worked out with the Town we got the disapproval because it did PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 not conform to the front yard setback. So as a result we are here in order to get this approved for Mr. Mattina. You've visited the house, the house is complete and he's spared no expense with respect to landscaping and the house is absolutely beautiful. The deck, the uncovered deck is not outside the characteristics of the neighborhood. There are adjacent property owners that have similar decks and additionally I have here six affidavits signed by neighbors that would have a visual impact should this deck be building the deck. gentleman Mr. Kevin approved, in favor of A seventh party, the (Inaudible) lives right next door is unable to attend. He lives out of state. I did, however, have a phone conversation with him yesterday and he also states his approval of this project. So we're hoping that the Board will concur and allow Mr. Mattina to construct the deck. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ms. Bishop it appears we're missing a green card. Do you have that? MS. BISHOP: No, it was never returned, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 however, it was for Mr. Caggiano. I did receive a phone call over the weekend saying that he would be here at the hearing. So he's aware of it. (Inaudible) here. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we got a correspondence with -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we received an email from him, so obviously he knows. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so we can -- that green card was supposed to come from Mr. Caggiano? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Caggiano. MEMBER DINIZIO: We can, right? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so he knows. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, he's aware of this hearing because he submitted an email to Jim, do you want to ask questions? MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I'd kind of like to reserve until later, but I will ask one question. That is -- I mean this is a deck and customarily decks are supposed to be -- not they're supposed to be -- are built in the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 backyard and I'm just wondering if there's anything, any reason more compelling than the fact that you ordered a door instead of a window because, you know, that can be replaced in an instant; is there anything more compelling than that? MS. BISHOP: Oh absolutely. We've got beautiful bay views right out the front door. MEMBER DINIZIO: Views, yes, I agree. MS. BISHOP: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: But it has a front yard setback also. MS. BISHOP: That's correct. MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, so I mean views are nice and you know you have a nice view from a window that's the same as standing out on a deck. So I was just wondering if there are any more compelling reasons other than that fact that you shouldn't be allowed - that you shouldn't be able to put this deck, which you could be allowed to have without the use of a variance, you'd meet all the code requirements if you put this in the rear of the house. I'm just wondering if you could expound on that and try to convince me that PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 otherwise. MS. BISHOP: Absolutely. The house is built into a slope, there really are no views to the rear of the property. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, we're not concerned a bout views so much as having to grant a variance with a minimum, you know, ingress on people's property. I mean you built a house - MS. BISHOP: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: You had every opportunity to set your house back as far as you could legally set it back. MS. BISHOP: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you, at any point in time, you could have built that 10 feet into the house setback and you didn't and that's okay. MS. BISHOP: Um-hmm. MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly, the hardship suppose would be replacing the sliding glass door with a window of the same size, a bay window or whatever. A couple of boards to shingle it up and it's done. So I'm not seeing any real hardship here or any PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 compelling reason why we variance, MS. saying. should grant a about a 30-percent variance. BISHOP: I understand what you're There is a significant difference to sitting out on a deck and enjoying the views and the breeze and whatever comes off the bay and just staring out a window. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but you could put a lawn chair on the front lawn and it would be just the same. MS. BISHOP: It's all sloped so it's all (inaudible) if you saw the property. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I agree. No, I did, I saw it. MS. BISHOP: You have to understand too that there are neighbors who have similar decks. I understand what you're saying about the offsets, however, they're similar, it's not going to usurp the character. This isn't a grandiose, you know, bi-level deck that wraps around the house and is going to support summer evening parties. This is a house that's occupied by a retired couple that moved here with their elderly mother and they'd just like the enjoyment of the views that they have PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 across the street to the extent that blocked by the other residences that there. it's not they have MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but one can only assume that those decks are -- the setbacks meet the Code requirements, right? MS. BISHOP: Yeah and I've also submitted affidavits from persons that will have an actual visual impact of this deck, not people that are on other blocks, situated that have animus because there is a neighborhood feud going on as far as MEMBER DINIZIO: concerned with that, (inaudible) people that are No, but we're not ma'am. MS. BISHOP: I understand. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm trying to get you to concentrate on that, too. MS. BISHOP: But what we have here is I've submitted affidavits that are signed by the residents of the areas across the street and adjacent property owners who are saying we don't really have a problem if it's granted. It's not going to upset them, it's not going to upset the characteristics of the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 neighborhood and it's for Mr. and Mrs. Mattina's enjoyment of this home and his retirement. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so that's your explanation. Thank you. MS. BISHOP: How specific do you -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll tell you I'm just going to reserve until after I hear from everybody else. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's go down the line. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MEMBER HORNING: Not at this time. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You could, of course, reduce the depth of the deck, okay, and still put a lawn chair out on something smaller than 10 feet and -- MS. BISHOP: What I talked to my client about was the 10 feet you see the typical lounge chair is roughly about 6 feet and you don't want that right up against the house. You still want to have the chance to walk around it. So it seemed to be a reasonable depth, if you take that into consideration, and the 14-foot width is conforming to that PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 part of the house that has a modular projection that just happens to be approximately 14 feet. That's actually a little bit less than that. There's going to be no stairs, so it's not going to impact in that way. It's just going to be in and out from the bedroom. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, the -- I just want you to be aware that when we deliberate on these things the deck could get smaller. MS. BISHOP: Understood. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If the Board was so inclined. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want to point out that the survey that we have as well as the deck plan from Steven Rosette, architect, is not accurate. It's not accurate in the following sense. I don't care about these stairs here because they're going anyway, that was just to meet Code for, you know, safety. MEMBER DINIZIO: They put stairs there, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: deck is granted. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 That's going if the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MS. BISHOP: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But this plan and the survey shows stairs running parallel along the side of the house from the front porch and in fact they're coming straight out. MS. BISHOP: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so that's not what's before us, but you know these documents are not exactly accurate and I just want the record to reflect that it doesn't have an affect on the deck per se, but it is not exactly accurate. MS. BISHOP: Understood. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, in my making a site inspection I did observe that this property is on quite a slope, but there's a retaining wall that there are other decks in front yards along that particular private road, which is a small private road, and the deck does not seem to be very large in scale, although we don't have a lot of details. I mean, obviously, you're going to have to have a railing on this deck. It's raised and so on. MS. BISHOP: Right and -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The plan that we have is really just simply a footprint, we don't have any details about the deck. I don't believe we do. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: there's not much in But you know it's not that -- I just again want to say that sometimes we have architectural drawings that show the elevation, they show the, you know, the actual railings and so on, but in this case we simply have a proposed position and you know, 14 by 10. MS. BISHOP: And dimensions that were submitted by the architect. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Right. MS. BISHOP: I did try to follow up with him, incidentally, just for your information, he is in Seattle and he's not expected to return my understanding (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is the -- MS. BISHOP: This is the architect, Steven Rosette. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, the architect. MS. BISHOP: He'll be back after the 4th PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of July so that's what he had submitted with respect to this application. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I have no further questions. Anybody else on the Board? Is there anybody in the audience who would like to address this application? Please come forward. MR. BELLISIMO: Hi, my name is Tony Bellisimo. I'm the Bell part of Bellmatt. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. BELLISIMO: Charles Mattina is my brother-in-law. Mr. Dinizio, I have an answer to your question. The architect blew it, okay, from the minute we started the application to design this house for my mom we wanted a window for her to come out and look at the waters outside. We only found out the day that we put the application in to the Town that we were denied the building permit because that was outside the box. We were told by the architect technically we can get a variance for it, so we went ahead with it. Okay, if we would have known before we would surely have pushed it back to where it had to PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 be. So that is the answer, I hope the answer to your question. The second point I'd like to make is just if the Board saw fit to approve it we would have no problem with a smaller deck. We just want that ability to come out for my mother. MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on, hold on. Don't go away. MR. BELLISIMO: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you submitted some plans; do we have those? MR. BELLISIMO: (inaudible) -- MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. BELLISIMO: MEMBER DINIZIO: see it. BOARD SECRETARY: MR. BELLISIMO: (inaudible). MEMBER DINIZIO: The original plan with the deck on it. With the deck on it. We do, cause I didn't We don't. The original plans I didn't see that. I'd like to see a copy of those. MR. BELLISIMO: MEMBER DINIZIO: for us now. We might have them. You don't have to get Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. BELLISIMO: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'll take them, sure. MR. BELLISIMO: This is exactly what happened, we didn't -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: In the interim just let me ask this question, when your mother would come out, would she naturally go and sit on a lounge chair or would she stay in a wheelchair or what type of -- MR. BELLISIMO: My mother was diagnosed with Lupus, I -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. BELLISIMO: She has no wheelchair, she has no walker. We can't fit a lounge chair there, she can't sit outside. We got a deck between in the (inaudible) we'd like her to be able get out and take a water. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just some sort of a deck. MR. BELLISIMO: MEMBER DINIZIO: look at the at least sit on Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so can we -- oh, anybody else? I'm sorry, I kind of wanted to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 do a little horse trading maybe or maybe look for some alternative and perhaps we can close this hearing because I is entirely too much. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: feel that the 10 feet Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just wondering if there isn't someway and perhaps the architect or somebody can tell me, say if we made that a 4-foot like space that she could get around and she could sit on that front porch that's there and have a view. In other words you come out that door and be at the floor level of the house, not climb down and go over to that porch and sit and watch the sunset or -- MS. BISHOP: I have a 4-foot porch in front of my house, it doesn't allow you a lot of room to negotiate, especially with somebody with Lupus. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, is she -- I understand the Lupus part of it. MS. BISHOP: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so say it's five feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Six -- MS. BISHOP: Six will give a little bit PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of a turning radius. MEMBER DINIZIO: Fine, but what I'm looking for is -- what I really don't want to approve, honestly, myself, is some three or four people sitting out on this deck looking across someone else's property, okay, at a view. I think that I don't want to encourage that when customarily these types of decks -- we're not talking about a porch now, we're talking about a deck -- MS. BISHOP: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- are in the rear yard because the people who built those decks want the privacy, okay. They're not on a public road. Koke Road is private, I know Koke Drive. I know some people down there. So that's so -- you know how I'm thinking. MS. BISHOP: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you know if we can accommodate the fact that if someone would like to sit in front of their house and look out, I have no objection to that. MS. BISHOP: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: But I do have objection if we have to grant a variance for them to do PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 that more than is necessary in order for them to achieve that. MS. BISHOP: Okay. I understand. MEMBER DINIZIO: So I'm asking if you could come up with some kind of plan maybe a little bit more detailed than what was given to us, the sketch, because I had originally thought that those steps that are on the side were what you were asking us for cause I saw what you had. MS. BISHOP: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and it looked pretty temporary to me. It looked like you wanted to do something else, go along side for some reason. MS. BISHOP: You mean what was temporary outside the door? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, for the 6-foot. MS. BISHOP: Right, that was for the C of O for purposes of obtaining the certificate of occupancy they had to put that in there. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. So, you know, if you can, I wouldn't mind encouraging the person to go over to the porch and sit down and lounge if they want and look out, but I PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 140 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 just think that us granting a deck at 10 foot in the front for these reasons -- MS. BISHOP: Well, I think Mr. Mattina indicated that he would be willing to just kind of shrink it and if the Board would take into consideration something of smaller size - the 14 feet is following that modular projection, so aesthetically it's decent. It maintains that character of the house. You saw the amount of time that they put into the (inaudible) of the house, but if you could do it like at six feet or eight feet or something a little bit smaller and still be able to put a chair, if the Board is willing to consider that rather than dismiss the application in its totality, we would be more than happy to, when the architect returns, to submit to the Board plans that are detailing -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, if we grant alternative relief you would be required to submit, before you could get a building permit, what the plans conforming to that alternative relief are. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's why I was asking for the plan. I mean I want something more PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 detailed so that we can vote on it. I would like to incorporate that deck into the porch, quite honestly. I would like to see that the steps, the front steps and that deck and the porch all be one. Okay so -- MS. BISHOP: You want it to extend beyond the 14 feet around so that you're actually just making it back to the same square footage as it was -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, whatever square footage. Square footage is not what concerns me, honestly. MS. BISHOP: Okay. It's the deck that -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. It's the fact we're granting a deck for someone to lounge out on in a front yard. end up doing that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just don't want to If we reduced that setback, we'll be reducing the variance by granting alternative relief. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, we may but linear wise though we're going to increase the linear footage on the frontage, but we're going to make it more walkway than a deck to the porch where -- Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 142 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I think that's re -- well, I think our concern is primarily the setback. MEMBER DINIZIO: Reducing it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, reducing it. How they design that really is up to them. I mean if they want a deck that just comes off a bedroom where it isn't a part of that front -- the front porch is set back in a well. The only thing that projects beyond that are the steps that lead from it down to the front lawn. Now, I would leave it up to the applicant as to how they want to design it. I think our jurisdiction is the setback, you know, and I mean I'm perfectly happy with a -- if you're willing and you seem to say so, consider alternative relief to say what that relief should be and then you're going to have to design something that conforms to the relief we granted. MS. BISHOP: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then we will not stamp those plans until we have plans that show the alternative relief that we've granting. In other words -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MS. BISHOP: I apologize for interrupting you. The alternative relief that you're making reference to is shortening or increasing actually the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The setback. MS. BISHOP: -- setback by shortening the deck. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's correct. MS. BISHOP: But not necessarily redesigning the whole front to incorporate it into the porch. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm suggesting that that's your prerogative to design it the way you want. MS. BISHOP: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our jurisdiction is that setback. MS. BISHOP: Setback. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And if we decide to grant you a different setback than what you've applied for, you could either reject it, but you're saying you're not going to. MS. BISHOP: No, (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You could always say no, you don't want that, then you don't PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 build anything. MEMBER DINIZIO: My only offer was that because we would, you know, if you had to scoot that deck out further along the property line, not out, but say we cut you down to five feet, I would be more than willing to grant you another four foot of that five feet to make it part of the deck. That was my offer, that's more than she wants to give you, okay, which is fine, but -- MS. BISHOP: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: My idea was what I'd like to do at the end of it, whatever makes you happy. I mean if it's only five foot and it's just a deck and it's not adjoined, I'm not going to object to that, but I -- MR. BELLISIMO: We would under no circumstances want that adjoined. That's a bedroom window. We wouldn't want anyone walking up the stairs to be able to go over to a bedroom window. MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. BELLISIMO: Yeah. What we would like is enough, maybe six to eight feet instead of whatever that 14 foot number is, enough to put Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 a lounge chair there or a wheelchair. We don't want a walkway. We'd like something that we would be able to sit and put a lounge chair, get up with the wheelchair turn around and get back into the bedroom. MEMBER DINIZIO: I offered to join them would allow you to do that on the porch. MR. BELLISIMO: We would -- MEMBER DINIZIO: And honestly that -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think what you're talking about, Jim, is this, you're talking about this is the landing connecting that across to the deck. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Along the front of the house. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you see what -- and I was saying what we were talking about, our jurisdiction is just this depth here from the front yard. If we cut that back and you were saying you would prefer this to be a spatially detached private area accessible only through the bedroom and just leave this the way it is. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 So yeah, there's a -- you know, it's security issue there or whatever. MR. BELLISIMO: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So all right I think we've sort of heard what we need to hear. Is there anyone else wants to be heard on this in the audience application? MEMBER DINIZIO: I have a couple just on CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, hold that. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Go ahead, Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: I wanted to address Mr. Caggiano's email. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's what I wanted to do. MEMBER DINIZIO: Go ahead. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Go ahead, Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I just wanted to say we read his comments and I -- MS. BISHOPS: Okay, I'm not familiar with his comments. MEMBER DINIZIO: I've read his comments and I don't think they're pertinent to this application. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MS. BISHOP: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Jim. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I was going to ask the applicant to respond to Mr. Caggiano's letter. You can respond to it in written form if you like and submit it to the Board. MS. BISHOP: I'm not aware of what his comments are. I'm not privy to that email, so I don't know what -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We'll give it to you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we'll give you a copy of it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, he's just talking about a cesspool and a shed I guess that's located on the piece of property. MS. BISHOP: Everything that exists on the property is conforming to Suffolk County with respect to cesspools. I have the Suffolk County certificate of occupancy for that structure as well as the Town. MEMBER DINIZIO: You have COs for everything? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MS. BISHOP: Everything is compliant. MEMBER DINIZIO: What about the shed? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MS. BISHOP: The shed is compliant because it's -- the Town has been to the property numerous times throughout the inspection process under -- while it was under construction and for final inspection to receive the certificate of occupancy. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's why I thought it was not pertinent. MS. BISHOP: It's not. I think the shed code, if I remember correctly, is 3 feet off the property line and there's just a lot of animus here because he wants to view the information of this house and while it was on the market he had every right to purchase it as did Mr. Mattina and we chose to -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, let's not go down that road. MR. MATTINA: (Inaudible) situated with the house. The shed is 5 feet off the property, it's an 8 by 10 shed. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It doesn't even need a CO. MR. MATTINA: (Inaudible) the property with a C of O and all the (inaudible) in place. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's fine. It just wasn't indicated on the survey and that was the concern from Mr. Caggiano and when we get a survey it should be complete with everything, all the structures that are on the parcel as well as the correctness -- MS. BISHOP: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- as the Chairperson pointed out before as the location of the steps. So we need complete surveys. MS. BISHOP: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: accurate survey? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Board. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You want an Well, that's up to the No, we don't need - MS. BISHOP: Everything has been approved and inspected by the Town. MEMBER HORNING: Regarding the porch, I mean you do have a door or some sort of an access going to the house from the porch? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The front door. MS. BISHOP: That's an access to a bedroom. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER HORNING: From the porch? MS. BISHOP: The porch that exists or the MEMBER HORNING: right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: door. The porch that exists, That's the front MEMBER HORNING: That's the front door, right, so you could not achieve this result of sitting out there on the front porch? MR. BELLISIMO: It's a closed porch. (inaudible). MEMBER HORNING: It's open on the one side that you're talking about having the view on. MR. BELLISIMO: (Inaudible) extension with the railings, proper railings. MEMBER HOP~NING: Right. MR. BELLISIMO; So she would be able to come out of the bedroom and sit there. MEMBER HOP~NING: MR. BELLISIMO: deck. MEMBER HORNING: On the porch. Not on the porch, on the What I'm saying is doesn't the porch have the same view as the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 proposed deck? MR. BELLISIMO: The porch does have the same view, but she wants to come out of her bedroom (inaudible) sit on the (inaudible). MEMBER HORNING: people normally do. sit on their porch. MS. BISHOP: It benefit for -- MEMBER HORNING: Right, which is what Right, they go out and is enclosed to the It's not enclosed on four sides, it's open to the view of the water, isn't it? MS. BISHOP: It has like an overhang. MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, but no one is looking up at the stars, you know, either, they're looking out at the water. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Maybe she's not looking up at the stars. MEMBER HORNING: She can go in the back here. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can we move on, please? I mean these are not -- these are not important -- MEMBER HORNING: I just thought she could achieve the same result by going out on the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 porch. MR. MATTINA: I'd just like to say something, I'm the homeowner -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just state your name for us. MR. MATTINA: Charles Mattina. I'm sorry, my name is There is no access to sun. This is an enclosed, inset porch. You cannot sit there on a lounge chair and, you know, lay in the sun. So the whole idea of the deck was to be exposed. You know, I'm not proposing any kind of (inaudible) anything like that, it's just an open deck basically to sit in the sun. MEMBER HORNING: I understand. Thank you. MR. MATTINA: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else who wants to address this? Okay, hearing no further comments -- MEMBER DINIZIO: So we're going to get a copy of that original plan for the Building Inspector? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If that's what you would like. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 153 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to see it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so we're going to close this hearing subject to receipt of the original architectural plans that were submitted with the deck to the Building Department. Okay, all right, and we will propose to close the hearing subject to receipt of that information from you to our office, reserve decision to a later date; is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 154 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6382 - Frank and Donna And Donna Perrin MEMBER GOEHRINGER: ~Applicants request a under Section 280-113B(14). Scarola Special Exception The Applicants are the owners requesting authorization to expand an Accessory Bed and Breakfast, accessory and incidental to their residential occupancy in this single family dwelling, from three (3) bedrooms to five (5) bedrooms for lodging and serving of breakfast to the B&B casual, transient roomers. Location of Property: 4850 Sound Ave., Mattituck; CTM 121-3-6." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, who is here to represent -- ah. MR. GORMAN: Hi, I'm Bill Gorman. I'm here on behalf of Frank and Donna Scarola and Donna Perrin and if you'll recall last January of this year we applied for and were approved for a three-bedroom B&B and we're here today to increase that to a five-bedroom B&B. CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Okay. I see you've changed the -- we do have a new site plan showing the relocation of the parking, five Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 cars, one for disabled, and in the end you are now proposing -- you have sought Health Department's okay in this. MR. GORMAN: We have that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have three half baths and seven full bathrooms in this proposed B&B, so that's a lot, but that's up to the Health Department. I presume the two owner parking spaces are going to be in the attached garage? MR. GORMAN: That's correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let's see what anybody on the Board has to say. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The square footages that you gave us, Bill, are correct? MR. GORMAN: Yes, they are. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not saying that you did anything incorrectly, I'm just saying that to the best of your ability you've scaled those out? MR. GORMAN: My abacus and my calculator MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The increase of the two bedrooms, can you tell us will there be any significant increase apart from people to Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the overall exterior design of the house that would cause any other negative feedback on property owners or any upsetment from the property owners? MR. GORMAN: There are no footprint changes. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. GORMAN: There are no windows additional spacing, any other directions than the directions that they're facing now. We're going to leave the garage doors in place so it will look like a garage door on either end of the long building. Do you have those elevations? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do we have what? MR. GORMAN: Do you have those elevations (inaudible)? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think we have it. No, we just have the -- MR. GO~: On the long shed where the two additional bedrooms will be we have large doors on either gable end. We will leave those. So it's really going to be very little. There is no exterior change. I think we're adding two -- we're adding a window near PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 one of the bedrooms near the bed on both ends of the building on the south side. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It looks the common area that you're going to break through, you know, this (inaudible) now storage area, it looks like you're putting a door in there from the lounge that's existing, which we had talked about at length previously, but you're also going to put a door in the exterior wall on the current storage area out of that common area it looks like? MR. GORMAN: Yes, that door actually exists. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, the door is there already. All right. MR. GORMAN: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: And the headboards of the beds are in other words? MR. GORMAN: Exactly. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is there any addition -- now you have to understand this is all one piece of property, I know you understand that, that's not a sarcastic statement, but is there any major change in reference to the shed areas or the barn areas that are going to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 158 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 alert neighbors that there is something else going on here other than the special exception as it exists today? I mean is there any active -- any renting of these barn areas? MR. GORMAN: There is no renting of any of these barn areas, there is -- one of the buildings is being used for storage of excess material as a consequence of construction. There has been some work. I know that one buildings there (inaudible) on site. So there are some -- one of the buildings is being used to build, I don't know, tables and whatever (inaudible). MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so what I'm going to ask for is, being the person that has this application, is that we do one final inspection after these -- all of these changes have been completed. I'm not necessarily reflecting Mr. and Mrs. Perrin's apartment, that's not the issue that we're here for, we're just to look at downstairs -- I mean if you want to gratuitously show it to us, you can do that also, okay, but it's not necessary. I just want to see the whole thing done because we very rarely grant a five- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 159 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 bedroom B&B, but I would like to see the whole thing once it's completed as a final inspection. MR. GORMAN: So the Board would like to review it. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR. GORMAN: And you'd like to see inside each of the buildings as well, is that what MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No. No, that's not an issue. I'm just -- I'm only reflecting what neighbors' concerns are regarding a five- bedroom B&B and I'm only asking you if you'll anticipate any other changes that might occur, okay, in the near future, which we may ask about. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are there any questions from the Board? Are there any people in the audience who would like to address this application? Hearing no motion to close to a later date; further comments, I'll make a this hearing, reserve decision is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6384 - Joseph F. Gonzales MEMBER SCHNEIDER: ~Request for Variances from Code Section 280-116 based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's Amended December 10, 2009, Updated March 9, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning nas built" rear deck and existing sheds, at less than the code required setback from a bulkhead of 75 feet at; 2700 Ole Jule Lane, Mattituck, NY. SCTM#1000-122-4-14. (adj. to James Creek" CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MS. GIGLIO: Good afternoon, Madame Chairman, members of the Board. My name is Jodi Giglio of Bennett Enterprises with offices at 1029 William Floyd Parkway, Shirley, New York here on behalf of the applicant. The applicant is seeking the variances for the rear deck and also the two sheds. He has obtained a permit from the Town of Southold Trustees for the structures and we are respectfully requesting relief due to the depth of the rear yard from the house to the bulkhead. We have approximately 61 feet where PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 75 feet would be required for any structures in the rear yard and we respectfully request permission to allow these structures on the property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I just have a couple of questions on these green cards before we -- MS. GIGLIO: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- ask questions and so on. I understand there were some mailings that were not completed to people that had to have notice. MS. GIGLIO: Right. What I did is I went to the Assessor's office and I picked the properties that were adjoining and also behind and then directly across the street. There was one parcel that was (inaudible) I think it was -- There's one parcel on here that's in lot 4, lot (inaudible) -- Lot 13 that has an -- I didn't have the paper with me when I went to the Assessor's office, so if you'd like to adjourn it so that I can notify these other property owners, I just didn't see a -- I don't see a tax lot number on Lot 4, the one directly behind 13 where the ~X" is. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm. BOARD SECRETARY: 47.1. MS. GIGLIO: Well, 47.1 was notified, I believe. BOARD SECRETARY: Okay, the ones that missing, Jodi, is 122-5.14, 122-44.8, and those are the ones that we sent you when we sent you the -- mailed those instructions on who had to be notified. MS. GIGLIO: Okay, BOARD SECRETARY: MS. GIGLIO: Okay, so 44.8 is -- County of Suffolk. then 47.1 is? BOARD SECRETARY: An underwater piece of property. MS. GIGLIO: But that wouldn't be adjoining, right? BOARD SECRETARY: See how Jane's Creek comes around and then we got water and land. They wanted them both notified. MS. GIGLIO: Okay. BOARD SECRETARY: And then 44.8 -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what, let's do this, let's go ahead and take testimony and -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I want the sheds on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 162 are 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the survey and knowing what the distance is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see what all the issues are and we'll adjourn it to a specific date pending the paperwork (inaudible). Let's go and let's hear the we'll see where we land with it. Ken, Ken? testimony and BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah. MEMBER GOEHRINGEH: I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is assigned to do you want to ask some questions first, MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, sure. I see there is an existing concrete slab on the back of the house, rear of the house and the applicant started to build a deck, which is why he's before us right now. What's the -- any special purpose for the deck or is there any special purpose for the size of the deck? MS. GIGLIO: The deck would come right off the back of the house and Mr. Gonzales is here if you would like him to testify as to why he picked the size. I know that there are other properties in the immediate vicinity that have decks that are in the rear yard, so Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 I don't believe that it is detrimental to the surrounding property owners and I do believe that it is within the character of the neighborhood and the decks that are in the rear yards of the adjoining properties and along the bulkheads, but Mr. Gonzales is here to testify as to the wood deck is elevated. It comes right off the slider into the backyard and the concrete patio is to grade and there's also a door that comes off of the garage that goes out onto the concrete patio and that's where he has his barbecue and other items. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: with regard to that shed that's very close to the bulkhead, it's just a plastic storage container. I believe there was information in the application that said that the applicant is willing to move that to a more conforming location; is that correct? MR. Gonzales. Yes. lawnmower, shed. GONZALES: Yes. My name is Joseph I'm from 2700 Ole Jule Lane. That deck (sic) is for the it's a very tiny deck (sic), I mean Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The shed you mean. MR. GONZALES: Yeah, but the other shed I already moved. It's on the -- it's already on the survey. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, well there's two. The one that's a little kind of for the mower, that's close to the bulkhead. If you could move that closer to your patio -- I guess you really need to keep the side yard open because when I was there I observed that you had a boat on a trailer that was -- and that side yard is probably the only way you're going to get that boat there if you're going to store it -- MR. GONZALES: That's right. That's right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- on your property. So you wouldn't want to be putting a shed in that side yard. MR. GONZALES: No, I can't. MS. GIGLIO: Anywhere where you would want to put the shed would be a determination of the Board. He's amenable to moving the shed, so wherever you would like him to put it, regardless, it needs a variance. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you also have a -- is that -- do you keep that carport up all the time, the canvas sort of -- MR. GONZALES: Yeah, I keep my car in it cause I converted the garage to a living space. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so that's where you're -- MS. GIGLIO: With permits. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MS. GIGLIO: Okay, I just to -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand that. I'm just checking cause that's not on the survey and it doesn't have to be. It was just observed when we were there and I'm just checking about possible locations. MS. GIGLIO: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't want a shed where your car is supposed to go. MS. GIGLIO: Yes. Thank you for recognizing that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So are we going to offer alternative relief for the location of the sheds; is that what we're doing here? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, what's before us is the deck. The shed could simply be a condition to move the shed. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, with what we want to do with the deck. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: My question was was there a specific need in mind for your wood deck? MR. GONZALES: Well, see the concrete slab that I have in back of the house is a patio. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh. MR. GONZALES: And it's always falling apart. The stones are coming up so I was constantly sweeping the thing. So that's when I decided the deck would be good. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. All right, and the size of the deck, would you consider possibly making it smaller? MR. GONZALES: Yes, I could make it smaller. Yeah, I can make it smaller. MS. GIGLIO: The deck is existing. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I see that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The framing is Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (63])878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 existing. MS. GIGLIO: The framing is, correct. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The framing is existing. MS. GIGLIO: So if you want to specify how much smaller you would like it because I know that he's got the footings in place and what have you so it would mean cutting it back and then putting in new footings to support the deck and changing the joists that go across. So if you have an idea in mind that would be acceptable to the Board for the size of the deck, then Mr. Gonzales can concur that that would be something that he could accommodate. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. I see that it's 16 feet deep. Would you consider 12 feet deep? MR. GONZALES: Sure. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That'll be good. I don't have a problem with the width of the deck. No further questions on my part. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't have any questions. MEMBER HORNING: Just to go over a couple PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 of the details. Mr. Gonzales, you -- according to the record, sir, you bought the current location in 2001, right? MR. GONZALES: Yes. Yes. MEMBER HORNING: And the structure was already there, correct, the house? MR. GONZALES: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: Right and the best I could tell it was maybe built in the late 1950s. MR. GONZALES: Yes. (inaudible). MEMBER HORNING: Right, prior to building codes, really. So -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Setback codes. MEMBER HORNING: Setback codes, right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: bulkhead. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Setback code from the From the bulkhead. MEMBER HORNING: So it's pre-existing in that respect and there's no place in your rear yard where you can put anything without -- any structure without being in violation of the existing setbacks; is that correct? MR. GONZALES: That's correct. MEMBER HORNING: All right, thank you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else? MEMBER GOEMRINGER: You have no anticipation of ever enclosing this, it will remain open to the sky? MR. GONZALES: No. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Great. Thank you. MEMBER DINIZIO: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so is there anyone else in the audience that would like to address this application? All right, hearing none I'm going to make a motion to close this hearing subject to receipt of the two missing green cards or proof of attempt to deliver those green cards, which ever come first; that? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: is there a second on Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6385 - Alexander L. and Tracy M. Sutton MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for Variances from Code Section 280-18 based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's October 14, 2009, Updated March 18, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed two lot subdivision, with total lot area less than the code required 80,000 square feet for two lots at; 1160 North Bayview Rd., Southold, NY. SCTM#1000-78-9-54 & 78. Zone: R-40." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, yeah. Perfect, we need the green cards. Thank you. There's two more missing. MRS. MOORE: Those are the -- we can find them through the internet through the Post Office. The Post Office got them, they sent them, but I think internally the Post Office sent them somewhere, who knows where, to come back. So I don't know where they are and as soon as we get them I'll provide them to you. BOARD SECRETARY: Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So I take it you're representing the applicant. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 172 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: I am, thank you. Pat Moore on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Sutton. I, just for the record, I did provide you today with a memorandum that is for your benefit going over the different issues that -- for an area variance and a lot of the research that I had done, so rather than recite it all, I'll follow it along in my presentation, but you have it there as a memorandum. Also, I wanted to have a correction. I gave you a revised survey. It's a corrected survey. The date of the survey, the surveyor used the same date, March 17th as his last revision because it was an error on his part on identifying as to lot 2 the front yard setback. The print that's in your file showed the building envelope right up to the road, which was incorrect. It's not really relevant to the Board's determination because the Board is dealing with the area variance for the size of the lots and the footprint would have been something we go back to the Planning Board, but I didn't want to have any confusion at the hearing that our building envelope was somehow going to be right up to the right of way. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 That's not the Code, that's not permissible and we corrected it right away as soon as I saw that to submit to the Board. So you have a good clean, accurate survey that shows the building envelope at 50-foot from the right of way, which is as the Code requires the measurement to be shown. It doesn't change area calculations at all. With respect to this application, also, while you have the survey in front of you, the reason, I had the surveyor try to identify the lot areas in as clear a manner as I could and the reason that we're here before this Board is to create lot 2, which is an undersized lot less than one acre in size. The way that that is calculated is the area of the lot excluding what is shown on this survey as parcel B. Parcel B is the area of the right of way, which was the whole issue why the Planning Board obviously couldn't approve it because originally when the Planning Board approved the sketch plan on this it included what we identified as parcel B as part of the lot area towards the lot. I know that the neighbors are here, I PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 174 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 just want to make sure that they understand that. The lot area for lot 2 that is proposed is 30,063 excluding any lot area from the right of way. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why don't we show it to them so they see it? MRS. MOORE: I gave them that. They already have it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Pat? MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZI0: On here it says 44,551. BOARD SECRETARY: Not including parcel B, they took this out. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I see. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you see how we did it? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Lot 2 is listed as 44,551 square feet in area data. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You are now -- that would have included the right of way, but you are saying that -- MRS. MOORE: Yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I see the setback now of the building envelope on proposed lot 2 PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 does not include parcel B, which you're calling the right of way area. MRS. MOORE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: saying that that is -- And you're now MRS. MOORE: The reason, just again, the reason I've used this map is that this is the map the Planning Board was using. So the way the surveyor prepared the map originally he had the original lot area at 44,551 meeting the 1-acre -- the 40,000 minimum square foot requirement. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: I did not want to make too many deviations to the map, to try to keep everything consistent since the Planning Board had already looked at it a certain way. That's why I've, I think that I've, as I said, I identified the parcel B area of lot 2 as the excluded area, lot area. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So parcel A is a continuation of that right of way -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, parcel A is the portion of the right of way that would be part of lot 1. The reason it was done this way, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 again, and we are -- I'm trying to follow what is the County policy with respect to right of ways and that the County -- my clients purchased this property from the seller of the house who also acquired title to the road, to that parcel A,B area. The County typically sells or gifts or whatever they do with the road areas or right of ways or parcels that they own, they -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's called a direct sale. MRS. MOORE: A Direct sale, exactly, to the adjacent owner with the understanding that that area is to be merged to the adjacent property, not to be left as a separate parcel because in many cases that's what caused the County to take title is that a tax bill wasn't paid and the County ends up owning that separate parcel. It is still showing on the tax maps as a separate tax lot number, but at the end of this whole process when we return to the Planning Board, hopefully with the Board's approval, the pieces will be merged and we will be in accordance with what is the County's policy to terminate or end these PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 separate parcels from showing up on the County tax map as a separate and distinct parcel. So that's why the property lines go, the proposed property line bisects parcel A from parcel B. I know that my client doesn't care, I mean it doesn't change the lot size of lot 2, however, I think it would impact a 280A application because now we have lot 2 getting a right of way through parcel B as a separate and distinct property. So it kind of satisfies two avenues. One being it merges the property in accordance with the County's policies and, two, it eliminates the need for a 280A for lot 2. So I -- that was my thinking when the map was prepared. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And one other related question. Let's look at the third segment, the proposed 25-foot right of way off of Liberty Lane/Victoria Drive can you explain how that works? I mean that's an existing -- MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure I understand your question, what 25-foot -- oh, I'm sorry, yes. The proposed 25-foot right of way, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The right of way PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 178 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 that exists now -- MRS. MOORE: That is an existing -- I think the surveyor probably left that from the previous map. I didn't catch everything. So I think the original map probably had it as a proposed 25-foot right of way. The right of way for others to use, will not change. We're not proposing anything. We don't need a right of way if we own, you know as part of lot 2, because lot 2 will have deed title to the road to the point where it meets up with the Town road Victoria Drive and Liberty Lane. Once it reaches -- once you have title -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a flag lot. MRS. MOORE: It's a flag, yes. Thank you. It's comparable to a flag lot. When the surveyor first prepared this I think he had it or right now he has it as a separate tax lot number so it's showing as a proposed right of way. So I think that's where the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I was confused why it was -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I hadn't even seen that that's why when you said 25-foot right of way I didn't catch that -- Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: actually, or how would you want it to read? MRS. MOORE: Probably that language is not -- there's no language there because -- off? How should it read CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we can cross it MRS. MOORE: You can cross it off because CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: of parcel B. MRS. MOORE: exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: right now. MRS. MOORE: Okay. That would be part it's part of parcel B, Okay, let's do that CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you proposing to keep the existing -- we'll call it road, it's a sort of footpath road, it's what's there now -- are you proposing to keep that open and available from North Bay-view Road to Victoria Drive as it currently exists for any car or individual to walk on? MRS. MOORE: Pedestrian. There -- we have no legal right to terminate anyone's right of way. We know that. There is no plan Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to do anything with this right of way; it can continue to exist as it is. It's adequate to provide as a driveway to lot 2, so there really doesn't need to be any improvements other than those improvements that you, the Board, might impose on a driveway or the Building Department might require with respect to getting access to a house. So aside from whatever the state building Code might dictate, there's no plans on those at all. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you're agreeable to C&Rs on that, right, just -- MRS. MOORE: Yes, absolutely. No problem, that is what the law is, so I don't - - it's fine if you're restating what the law would be. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: looking at, at this point, for an undersized lot. MRS. MOORE: Correct. straightforward. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Really what we're is an area variance It's pretty Okay. MRS. MOORE: Now, what I did with respect to my memorandum, when I went back and I looked at my submission, I realized I had Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 called Reydon Heights a filed map when, in fact, it's not. It was pre Planning Board, so when I checked with the Planning Board they didn't have a record of the map being approved by them. It was not a filed map, so I just wanted to correct my description of Reydon Heights. It's the Southold Town -- it's not a Southold Town Planning Board approved map, nor is it a filed map. So I did not want anybody to raise an issue that I misstated the status of that subdivision. Going along with my memorandum, what I -- the standards that we have to show with respect to an area variance on creation of this lot that there will be no -- the question is whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties with the grant of this area variance. What -- in evaluating that I pulled commentaries from Town Law as well as cases and the cases seem to say look at the surrounding neighborhood. This is something that you're already well aware of the procedures, so I took what would be tax block 8 and 9. In fact, there's much PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 more of Reydon Heights is actually in a separate tax map, it's not showing on tax block 8 and 9, it's further to the -- on the east side, but just in that area I listed from my feeble attempts at looking at very small tax map numbers it's approximate measurements, but even with approximate measurements, most of the lots in this area and I would say from the lots that I counted 73 out of 78 lots in this general vicinity that the neighborhood there are are undersized. There are I've described as 73 out of 78 lots -- many or much less than the size of this proposed property and there are -- I separated those in my memorandum. Tax lot 79-39 through I'd say 42 that were closer in size to our proposed property. So there a really is a neighborhood of very small, undersized half-acre, quarter-acre sized lots with some of the newer subdivisions even those are in the 30,000-32,000 square foot size range. So that's all set forth in the memorandum. Whether the applicants had achieved this -- is it feasible for this applicant to get Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 183 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 this variance through other means, what -- I've misstated that. Whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than an area variance. Well, initially what they tried to do was to acquire this extra land, which was through the Planning Board process and my client tells me only 10 feet of this area -- 10 feet out and the entire length would have given the area lot area that they needed to make the property conforming, but as you know and we know now that the Planning Board cannot use that area towards the yield calculation because it's specifically set forth you can't do that in our Code with respect to buildable land. So that was, unfortunately for everyone, not discovered until way into the process when the Planning Board was really ready to issue preliminary map approval and that issue came up. So again I think some of the confusion was the fact that this is not a filed map and it is not a Planning Board approved map. The status of this road, the north end of Victoria PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Drive was undetermined. The Planning Board ultimately, conservatively said the entire area, 50 feet by the entire length, would be excluded even though the actual improved area is about 10 feet by the length of the area between North Bayview and Victoria. They have taken the most conservative view and there we are. Again, there's a lot more said here, but I'm trying to move along and get to some points where you might have questions. Are the requested variances substantial? I actually had to call the surveyor twice because the survey that we have of the individual parcel with a house is a 200 by 400 measurement, perfect 200 by 400. Even I can do that math, which is 80,000 square feet, but the surveyor said no because the parcel is somewhat of a parallelogram it loses some of its area when the number crunching occurs. So what we have here is a 709 square foot differential between a pure rectangle and a parallelogram. So it is not a substantial deviation from that which is required and you learn something new everyday with respect to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 185 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 parallelograms. Anyway the fourth standard is the variance will not have an undesirable impact on the character of he neighborhood and will not have an adverse impact on the physical and environmental conditions in the neighborhood. If we are granted the variance and we return to the Planning Board, the Planning Board has a very extensive subdivision review process and they have tree clearing limits. We have clearing limits on every parcel, every new parcel that is created. As we've already stated or I've already stated on the record the road, the paper road, there is no plan to do anything to the paper road. So as far as the way it looks today, it's wooded. It's passable, but it's left natural. That is all remaining as it is. I saw one of the letters from a neighbor that was concerned about extensive tree clearing. The Planning Board places covenants and restrictions that limit tree clearing so that is -- you could certainly impose that as a condition as well. It is what -- you could apply that -- use the same language as the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Planning Board has, but the Planning Board requires us to follow covenants with respect to tree clearing limits. So I'm going to be - that was one of the issues that were a concern. Again, I would also point out that the size of the proposed parcel is about three times the size of the adjacent parcel to the south and so we feel that certainly it is consistent with the neighborhood and not adverse environmental impact to the neighborhood. It will meet all the sanitary Health Department regulations. It will be -- my understanding, yes, there is a water meter along -- actually inside the property so that parcel 2 can actually be connected to public water, but we'll leave that up to the Health Department ultimately. I believe that that's the lot that was going to be connected to public water; is that true? Yes, the Health Department, I remember reading it, yes. (SPEAKING TO SOMEONE IN THE AUDIENCE.) With respect to whether the alleged difficulty was self-created, finally, again PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 187 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 they purchased both pieces anticipating that no variances were required. They did get pretty far with the Planning Board and there was no -- they didn't come to the Board for an area variance as a first choice. We're here due to the status of the 50 feet that is a right of way. That pretty much takes care of my presentation, but I'm here to answer questions and I'm sure there'll be questions from the audience. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's ask Jim since it's his. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm just a little bit confused about parcel A and parcel B and - MRS. MOORE: Sorry. MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, it's fine, I mean I understand, I guess, that the Planning Board -- someone doesn't use that square footage, Parcel A or parcel B -- MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in the calculation for the lot. MRS. MOORE: Yes. but Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 188 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: But I see a black line drawn all the way around that, both of those lots, so I'm assuming that somewhere along the line that amount of square footage is calculated into that lot somewhere. MRS. MOORE: To the extent that you're taxed for it, yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: that's what it's for. Okay, all right so MRS. MOORE: Yes. So the Assessor will most likely -- they don't differentiate between the area that's in the right of way or encumbered from an area that is not encumbered. So it maybe the -- I don't know, I don't want to speak for the Assessor's office. The property card may show the larger number in order to be able to assess based on the larger number. The fact is that with respect to creating the lot we can't use that area. With respect to maintaining and cutting grass and trimming and things like that, it's all part of your property and as I said before including it into the area -- Let me step back. Excluding it from lot 1 and 2 there's a line that stops at the right of way, okay, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 189 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 makes sense for my clients in the sense that you can create -- you can have a separate LLC so you have less liability, but I don't believe that is the intent the County, when the County transfers property, that they want to see those pieces as a separate and distinct tax lot number. So I'm weighing the policies of the County to merge the two pieces so it's under one tax map number versus the liability that having people crossing a right of way on your property, but that's why we have insurance and you know it'll be dealt with. MEMBER DINIZIO: So was, originally, this was just a road? I guess I mean it described as a subdivision not on any -- it hadn't been acquired by anybody to have that road there, right? I mean it was put there, drawn there by somebody. MRS. MOORE: I'll give you what I have, which is back in I think 1940 is the number, in 1940 Reydon Heights was developed as a plan, okay, as a map and it wasn't filed with the Suffolk County Clerk, but it was development plan and there are lots of them in PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 190 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the Town where the developer created the development plan and then sold properties or lots out of that development plan. Like a typical, kind of like we do condominiums today, that way. When the developer was creating the road areas, they showed Victoria Drive to go from North Bay-view Road down through this development. I think that's a map in your file -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, we have it right here. MRS. MOORE: You do, good. Okay, so the map was created that way. There were conveyances out from the developer or the common owner of parcels. You can make out of the subdivision parcels that have a right of access by their deed. So anybody who has a right of access in their deed has a right to cross this pathway in whatever standard, whatever condition it might be in, and that's what we've been trying to say. If anybody has a right of access, that doesn't stop. So if you have a right of access in your deed, absolutely. You can earn rights through PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 191 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 prescription, it really is irrelevant at this point because it's there. It's not going to change and if you have a right to cross it, you cross it. Where we did find through -- the Planning Board, during the process as they were reviewing this, said well, why isn't this road and dedicated road and, in fact, James Rich, who's still around, he was when this affidavit was done in 2009 gave a little bit of history that Jim Rich, Junior when he was sitting on the Town Board from 1970 to '82 actually heard applications for dedication of roads and acceptance of roads and that this particular north end of Victoria Drive was specifically not accepted for dedication probably because it was in the condition it is today. You know, the Town doesn't accept roads unless they are built out to Town specs. So the Town Board chose not to accept this road for dedication. Other roads, Liberty Lane and Victoria Drive and Cedar -- some of the other roads, I don't know which, all of them, but those that were accepted for dedication became town PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 roads. So that's why Liberty Lane and Victoria on the south end, where it's showing on the survey as a town road, those were actually accepted for dedication by the Town Board. So I have the letter and I have the map that went along with it just for historic purposes to answer, I think, I've answered your question. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, just -- I read some of the letters here also. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: They're talking about a dirt road, you know, I just wanted to get an idea of just what exactly how it came about and it seems to me like it's being treated separately, but it's really not, and you have no right to tell anybody that they can't go on that road if they have a right to go there. MRS. MOORE: No. Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, that's all. MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'll just put this in your file. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh this is the background. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: That's from Jim Rich and that actually comes from the Planning Board files, by the way. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask the Board if they, at this point, have any questions of Ms. Moore, if not, I'll ask the public to make comments. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is there any particular reason, Ms. Moore, why the lots weren't more equally formed? MRS. MOORE: I knew somebody was going to ask me that. I actually have a map that gave me the equal, you know, if we were to create the line and make the two lots as equal as possible. I have a map and I can provide it so you know what that lot area is. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: It was -- my client has a house there and it's already developed. There is a well, there is the sanitary and so on. So their preference was to keep the house parcel a little bit larger fronting on North Balrview Road since that seems to be where the areas of the larger lots are versus the southern lot which is closer to the Reydon PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Heights development, which has 10,000 to 20,000 square foot lot sizes, so the design makes sense in respect to how conforming the neighbors' homes are. So we're trying to keep the character of the area closer by the way the lot is developed, but I actually did ask that question. I actually have a map the surveyor did and I'll provide it for the Board so you can see that is an option, a first choice, and also I was trying to keep to what the Planning Board had already reviewed so I didn't want to bring a new element in with equally sized lots cause now -- I mean certainly have the right to tell us to do that and I'd explain it to the clients and they'll live with whatever it is that you grant them, but then we're going back to the Planning Board and it's a little bit different map than what they had originally seen. It's not a big deal, but -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: the Planning Board now? MRS. MOORE: Well, Where are you with they denied the preliminary map approval, so I think technically we'd have to go back. They have Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 a sketch, but we'll go back with the sketch of the map, the last correspondence that I saw and I have a copy of it here for you because my question to the surveyor was where did these three parking spaces come from, what is that? You'll see it on proposed lot 2, that actually came from a letter dated February 24, 2009 from the Planning Board asking for modifications to the map and they were really close to issuing preliminary map approval. I mean the letter here says, "In order for this application to be granted preliminary approval, the following items should be addressed on the map." So they got pretty far, but that map or this map, as it was proposed to the Planning Board, was technically in error so that's where we are, I believe going back. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're anticipating. MRS. MOORE: I'm anticipating. CHAIRPERSON WEISNLAN: Well, that makes life easier. That's all right. MRS. MOORE: But just for clarification for the record, the evened out lot is PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 identified, he doesn't use new dates for the maps, at the bottom right hand corner of the map it says number 27-166B, okay. You're reviewing I think C. MEMBER HORNING: MRS. MOORE: D. All right, this is E, so -- because they're going to look so much alike that -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That E is the one that shows the more even -- MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: is almost conforming. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So in this one, lot 2 Yeah, lot 2 is 39,291 square feet, lot 1 is 40,000; is that correct? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yup. MRS. MOORE: Yes and in this one, you know, not every map is the same. In this one they didn't even calculate the parcel A, parcel B for the square footages. He just gave me -- I asked him tell me what sizes the lots are as close to being equal as possible and that's what he gave me. He didn't give me the -- after that when I was trying to do the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 application I realized well how much square footage is the road versus the lot. So that's why parcel A and B and just for information sake when the surveyor isn't using -- it's not part of the -- it's not the lot, they describe it as parcel A and parcel B because they don't want to confuse a (inaudible) that is a lot. It's actually calculated area. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That will be annexed after -- MRS. MOORE: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- this approval and Planning Board. MRS. MOORE: So -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can assume that parcel A and B is going to include that entire area. MRS. MOORE: It's not going to change. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not going to change -- well, it will change the square footage simply because the lot line -- MRS. MOORE: Well, it's only square footage in actual use, but not in area calculations of the lot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The total. Yes, I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 get that. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I get that. All right and this would be an alternative -- MRS. MOORE: With respect to the size of the lot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- to the size of the lots. MRS. MOORE: Okay. Again, we're going to leave it up -- I'm sorry, what? MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just going to ask a question. This brings that well to about three feet from the property line. Is that a problem? MRS. MOORE: I don't know -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In terms of septic. MRS. MOORE: No, I don't think there's a rule on the setback of a well to the property line. I think as a matter of the first five feet -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Only to the septic. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the septic we have (inaudible) setback. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On lot 2, that would be a -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And then whatever the septic is on the adjacent lots. MEMBER DINIZIO: You get -- MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what? MEMBER DINIZIO: You get a much bigger building envelope on this map. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You sure do. MRS. MOORE: Exactly, yes. The size of lot -- the size of the house on lot 2 is significantly larger and the size of lot 2 really doesn't conform to the balance of the neighborhood itself. It's an option, so to understand what all the options are, I spent my clients' money. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that is a possible alternative plan. Okay, so this is alternative proposal. MRS. MOORE: This is an alternative, just to know what that alternative is, should you choose to consider it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: So I'm clear in my own head, right now in terms of the Town, there is PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 one parcel; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Yes. The Town, yes, the Town has this as one tax lot number 78-9 lot 54. MEMBER HORNING: For the Town; for the County there are two -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, no, no. I'm sorry. Okay, I misunderstood your question. The Town has two parcels right now, the main house with a lot that is 200 by 400 and it is identified as tax lot number 78-9 lot 54, that's the house where the house sits today. It also, the Town also shows what I described as parcel A and parcel B as a separate tax lot number 78-9 lot 78. MEMBER HORNING: So that's basically where the area of where the right of way is? MRS. MOORE: Exactly, that is the 50-foot MEMBER HORNING: Okay, that's what I -- MRS. MOORE: I call it a paper road because of what I've understood roads that appear on a map that aren't open are described as. MEMBER HORNING: The County doesn't own Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 any of that, correct? MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER HORNING: It is a private right of way and the net result when this lot subdivision is made, let's say, you could extend the proposed property line right through the right of way; is that where it's going to be? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, my client owns both parcels. MEMBER HORNING: But the right of way will continue through there. MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's subject to the rights of others. It's like any property that you -- MEMBER HORNING: Okay. MRS. MOORE: -- buy. It has a pathway or a right of way running through it, you always get a title and your title company will say, you know, you own this property subject to the rights of others to cross what is the designated right of way. MEMBER HORNING: And then they're going to have to redefine the areas of the tax parcels accordingly? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Well, what will happen is when the subdivision gets finalized the subdivision will probably require -- will be filed with the Suffolk County Clerk. When you file the maps the County Real Property will assign new tax map numbers to it and will change the boundaries of the tax map to reflect whatever it is that you've shown on the filed map and ultimately the deeds will reflect what's on the filed map. MEMBER HORNING: Right. Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody else have questions? We'll see what the public wants to -- maybe we should reserve our questions until we hear more from the public? Okay, so let's see who else in the audience would like to address this application. MRS. MOORE: I'll leave my map here, unless you mind. MR. KENNEDY: Good afternoon, Madame Chairwoman, members of the Board. My name is Tom Kennedy, I'm here today with my wife Claire Kennedy. We live at 900 Victoria Drive in Southold in the Reydon Heights community. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 203 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 We're here to address our opposition to the application and the variance. Just a point of record, the proposal that you were just handed we were just handed three minutes before this hearing opened. You're going to hear from a number of neighbors today who are going to express their feelings about the matter before you today. However, there is a number of neighbors who, for work commitments, family commitments, health issues, who could not be here. So to be handed this at the last comment and be expected to digest this without having the benefit of one of our neighbors who is a lawyer who prepared a lot of legal research on this matter for us and expect us to be able to tell you our positions, it's really not fair. We need an opportunity so all of our neighbors who have an interest in this will be able to look at this. I ask you to consider to adjourn this matter so that other people can view the file. Your office there's a note on your office that says that people cam come view a file up until the day before a meeting, so to be handed this, this was handed on the day of a PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 meeting, doesn't give us ample time to actually do any research. So that being said, I just do want to discuss a couple of points to you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, that's fine. We'll take that under advisement. We can make sure that everyone, all interested parties concerned will have an opportunity to see the full record and comment on the full record. We'll address them, let me make sure the application that we had was the parcel at 30,063 square feet. Is that the survey that you've reviewed? MR. KENNEDY: Yes. MS. KENNEDY: It shows the dirt road as being included in -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you got the very original -- MS. KENNEDY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. MEMBER DINIZIO: Which was actually the one that the Notice of Disapproval is based on. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, Yes. let's just make Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 205 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 comment. The applicant has just submitted, it wasn't really a last minute thing, it was more a response to our questions, in all honestly. You know, we wanted to see what it would look like if those lots were equal. I mean, that's -- it's not a new proposal. It's just part of the testimony that we take to help make our decision. So, you know, you're welcome to ask for an adjournment and it would be fine. I have no objection to it, but I don't want you to think that there was anything other than a response to a question we always ask. You know is -- can you do better than what you're proposing and that's we're willing to take a loot at it. MR. KENNEDY: Thank you for the clarification. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask you something, would you, based upon the fact that we now have two other surveys before us both of which do not include in the yield the right of way area, would you like to continue to testify on the basis of the research that you've gotten relative to what is no longer really going to be what we would be reviewing, Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 which included that right of way in the yield MRS. MOORE: No, no. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it doesn't -- MRS. MOORE: submitted to you from the CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: -- that No, there is a map that was inception -- Right. included the area within the road bed as part of the lot area. So I just want to make that clear, the only map -- the only difference of the correction was the building envelope 50-foot setback. Otherwise, the lots -- the surveys are identical. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. MRS. MOORE: And it's always excluded the right of way from the lot area. I just want to make sure you understand (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. MR. KENNEDY: Again, it's not trickery, it's just the fact that there were omissions that we saw in the application. There were things that were not addressed that now are that we haven't had the opportunity to digest; however, there are several people who took PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 time out of their day that do want to bring some points across to you and if -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. MR. KENNEDY: -- you would give us the opportunity -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll listen to it all and -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just say something on the onset, please? There's a little difference between, over the last 30 years that I've been on this Board, a little difference between the onset of you standing there and approaching us and sitting at home and going over this, you know, in your den, out on your deck, whatever the case might be. It's my suggestion that you take notes when you review this entire thing, either by yourself or in the entirety of other people in the community, and that you can either send them to us, okay, and then review them again in another hearing, but don't -- sometimes this stuff becomes extremely voluminous and when you're sitting at home you're going to think of so many more things to think about than you're going to when you're standing PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 before us. Not because I'm trying to make you uncomfortable, I'm trying to make you as comfortable as possible in what you're telling us, okay, but you're just going to think of more things, okay, because you're not standing at the dais or whatever the case might be. So if you want to send us a letter, okay, thinking of all of those and then maybe coming up with a couple more when you testify again. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what I'd like to do is to take any comments that those of you who took time from your schedules want to submit to us, bearing in mind that I will be making a motion to adjourn to another date, so that everyone will have an opportunity to see the proposals that are being submitted today and to make your -- to adjust your comments accordingly. So let's go ahead and see what it is you have to say that you'd like to enter into the record, but I would ask that you try your best, knowing that this is pretty quick to do a turnaround, to address those things that you think may continue to be relevant to the current proposals, just for the sake of time. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. KENNEDY: Well, again, for the sake of time, the Planning Board record that the actual record is on a disk. It's a 478-page record. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We know. MR. KENNEDY: You know. And again, there's further correspondence that actually, I think, from the Planning Board that lays out how far it did get and their reasons for the disapproval, they consider it to be the roadway. Our concern is that it's not used in the yield, that would be number one, but I'd like to submit that for the record cause it's the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The comments from the Planning Board? We'll take it, but we do have them. MR. KENNEDY: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But that's fine, if you have a copy for us, we'll take another one. We do have their comments by the way. MR. KENNEDY: And the (inaudible) of the entire file. The math involved in the calculation of the one parcel being divided into two, when it's 80,000 square feet taken PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 210 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 alone, it comes up short 709 feet, but the second lot that they're proposing, actually they're asking for a variance of almost 25 percent. That second lot is about 30 percent. So I think the math when it's presented one way it makes it sound like it's a small variance, when in actuality it's a pretty large variance. It's 10,000 feet short, not to -- again to say that it fits into the character of the neighborhood, the counsel's submission about the area that are about 30,000 I counted from seven lots in feet. Ail of our lots are a lot smaller, closer to 10- 15,000 feet. The building envelope on lot 2 which is the closest to our neighborhood is huge. It's larger than -- so that would mean this house would not fit into the character of the neighborhood. MEMBER DINIZIO: Could you expound on that? MR. KENNEDY: Well -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: house would be too big? Are you saying the MR. KENNEDY: No, I'm saying the building envelope. I don't know how big the house Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 ultimately will be, but the building envelope if you were to have -- if you -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, we got that, but I'm just wondering, what's your objection to that? MR. KENNEDY: Well, just characterization that it fits again the in with the neighborhood. Well, most of our lots are smaller, 10-15,000 feet. A majority of them, so therefore our building lots -- I mean our building envelope would be smaller and the houses that we have are smaller because the majority of the houses in our neighborhood are 30-50 years old. So this is going to be a larger house on a larger parcel; it doesn't fit in with the character of the neighborhood. Again, in regards to access over the roadway, it is a roadway and there was reference to it in what was just submitted to clearance for emergency vehicles, which currently doesn't exist. It's my understanding the Town Code requires 20 foot wide and 14 foot clearance, if that's correct, and that's not the case right now. It's limited down to 10 feet. I don't know -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 again, there's a trailer that's placed on the road by the owners. There's a boat, there's some seeding. I don't know, it's causing us purposely to shrink the amount of usage we have over our right of way, but that's currently where we are. I don't know if you had a site inspection. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MR. KENNEDY: And again those would impede emergency traffic. To say it was self-imposed, there was definitely issues when the property was purchased from the County and transferred to the owners that they had an awareness that there were some problems with the merging. This was not self-imposed, an understanding that the didn't go through because they definitely had closing almost of that there would be some problems later on down the road and that's why we're here. Again, trying just for economy of time, cause I know a lot of people want to talk and I'm sure you'll be hearing from us again, but if you do grant a variance that the variance that there needs to be conditions placed on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 it, a restriction on the variance that the front yard setbacks on both lot 1 and 2 at the edge of the roadway it has to go back from there as proposed, but there should be no -- it should be recorded that there will be -- it should be required by the applicant that the restrictions be recorded against the property before they resubmit the subdivision to the Planning Board. Again, you know, I had my mind, I had what I wanted to say for economy of time, but also again being thrown off a little bit by trying to digest what we just saw. I really don't have all of my thoughts put together. Again, there was incomplete information on the application that wasn't addressed until we just saw it today whether it was -- MS. KENNEDY: Question 4 on the original application wasn't even addressed, it just skipped right from 3 to 5 and that was of concern to us as well. MR. KENNEDY: So again, we're asking that if a variance is granted that the road is not included in any setbacks, that that is made a condition that all of the -- included in any PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 covenants and restrictions are the right of way over that the merabers of the community have. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I think that looking at the map that was just submitted that, you know, you'd be quite happy with what they're proposing cause that's exactly what they did. You know they set -- that building envelope starts at the right of way, you know at the 50-foot mark of that parcel. MR. KENNEDY: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: So you'll have that setback from there and certainly that's the Town Code anyway. You know, you would -- you'd need a variance to go any closer to that. MR. KENNEDY: What we're asking though is that there be a condition put on there that says there can be no further relief granted so that doesn't -- you know, if the property does change hands if it's sold that somebody doesn't comeback to you later on and say, well, I need relief from this 50-foot and again come closer to the road. The building envelope was pushed back, well somebody later Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 on down the road, another owner may come back to you later in time and say well we want to move it forward closer to the roadway. So we're asking that if you do grant it that that be a condition in there and also to guarantee the right of ways over the roadway. MEMBER DINIZIO: We have from counsel on that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We to get advice have to see whether legally we can deny relief. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, you know, everybody has an opportunity to, you know, seek relief, everybody does. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't know whether we can do that, but we'll look into it. We'll look into all that stuff. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: appeal -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We can't deny an Without hearing it. MR. KENNEDY: Again, this is a -- I'm going to just wrap up real quick. Again, there was a number of neighbors who couldn't be here who had submitted letters of support, we had actually placed a -- CHAIRPERSON WEISM31N: Letters of support Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 for your position? MR. KENNEDY: Letters of support for our position. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In other words, opposition. MR. KENNEDY: Opposition. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, just to be clear. MR. KENNEDY: Opposition. There was also, we filed back on June ist of '09 a petition from the neighborhood that also supported our position of opposition and legal research done by one of our neighbors. I'd just like to submit all this, again, they are in the file. They are on the disk and -- Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we will accept whatever you submit. Is there someone else in the audience who would like to address this application? I would ask that -- that's fine. Please try and be as succinct as possible. MR. GUILD: My name is Jack Guild. I live in 1420 North Bayview Extension, next door. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell your name for the record, please? MR. GUILD: G-U-I-L-D. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. GUILD: We've been living there for 24 years. In that course of time I've seen the neighborhood go from rural to suburban and personally I really never wanted to live in suburbia. I just state that Southold is a rural-type place; I would like to see it stay that way. I'm hoping to stay here, but either these people want to live here or they want to turn a profit on the place. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're welcome. Anyone else? MS. GRIGONIS: My name is Joyce Grigonis. I live at 470 Columbia Road in Reydon Heights and I need to go back to work as soon as possible, so everything they said is what I wanted to say and I just submitted to you -- BOARD SECRETARY: Speak into the microphone, please. MS. GRIGONIS: And I submitted to you option 3, which would put all the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 inconvenience of a subdivision on the homeowner and not an entire neighborhood, including all the traffic when the house is being constructed. Construction work is traffic. That would probably -- I did not interrupt you -- and all the vehicles that would be blocking the road and parked up and down our streets when the house is being built impeding emergency vehicles. I also had a discussion with Pete Harris yesterday on this site and he gave me permission to quote him. That on the condition of the road and why it is in the condition it is now, "It's the homeowner's responsibility to keep it clear of vegetation 20 feet wide and 14 feet tall. Legal responsibility with Southold Town Law and the Fire Department." It's a 50-foot wide roadway 505 feet long recognized by the Assessor's Office here in Southold Town Hall, but as you can see I made my own plans because this is part of what I do in my job, that would only put one person inconvenienced. An entire neighborhood would not be inconvenienced and that's all I have to say. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 219 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Thank you. MEMBER DINIZIO: Ma'am, I have a question about this submission -- MRS. MOORE: May I get a copy -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Just a second. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- cause you submitted this. I'm just wondering it says, ~Southold Town recognized roads." MS. GRIGONIS: By the Assessor's Office. MEMBER DINIZIO: So I mean that's just they recognize the parcel not necessarily the right of way. MS. GRIGONIS: They recognize that as a roadway. MEMBER DINIZIO: As MS. GRIGONIS: Yeah. determined last year. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: a roadway? This was all Say that again. MS. GRIGONIS: This was all determined last year. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That it was a recognized Southold Town road? MS. GRIGONIS: With Southold Town Assessor's Office. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 220 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 UNIDENTIFIED: comments from audience.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, you have to come to the podium. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. We just need -- all I'm trying to do is clarify so when I write a decision, okay, so hold on just one second. Hold on just one second. Hold on. If you're saying it's a Southold Town recognize road -- MS. McLAUGHLIN: MEMBER DINIZIO: (Audience member made some there some kind of decision on that or is that part of the record already? I didn't see anything in the record that -- MS. McLAUGHLIN: No, it's -- I mean it's always been a road and with the Planning Department it was a big discrepancy with the application and if it was a road or not a road and it was determined to be a road and we were told that we needed to submit a letter to the Assessor's Office saying that we don't ever want this to have an abandonment of road. So that's what I think Joyce is referring to as they're recognizing it as a road. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 Unimproved roadway. Now where is the -- is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, do you have a copy of that letter? MR. KENNEDY: In the Planning Board decision as well it refers to it as a roadway, that is a document that I submitted to you and in that document, in the disapproval that was given to the applicant, they recognize it as a roadway. It is defined specifically based on Town Code and it is in the disapproval that was given to the applicant by the Planning Department. I don't know the exact page, it's a two- or three-page document that I submitted to you earlier that -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I say something? MR. KENNEDY: -- defined it as a roadway. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, go ahead. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What you're saying is this, every piece of property in the state of New York holds a property description code, it's referred to as a PDC. Okay and the Assessor's of the Town of Southold are indicating this particular piece of property as a PDC, ~a road". They will tell you what that PDC means, okay, and they will give you a 1, 2, or 3-digit number on it of what that PDC PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 means. Okay, which they're saying the assessment on it -- you have to remember that in the years gone by there were never assessments on these kinds of properties, that's why the properties were not taken. Then, the State Department of Equalization said to the Assessors, I'm going to say sometime in the 60s or the 70s, you need to assess every piece of property in the Town and it was at that time -- it could have been before that, I'm not telling you that that's when it actually started -- so they then placed an assessment on it. They found the owner of the road and they told them that the road is now being assessed and it is your responsibility to create, you know, to pay the taxes on this road. If they did not find an owner, it was recorded as an unknown owner, okay, after a period of a couple of years, if the taxes were not paid because an unknown owner isn't going to pay the taxes, there could have been an owner on this one, I don't know, but the County of Suffolk would take the property and that's the story. Okay and that's how it happened and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 223 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the subsequent owner of the house, to my understanding on this particular piece, not the present owners, acquired this piece of property by direct sale and the direct sale then existed as it exists today. Just be -- when the Assessor says they're assessing it, they're saying that they're putting a Property Description Code on this piece of property as a roadway and that's the story. MR. KENNEDY: Well, if the record is going to stay open, I have -- if you'll accept further documentation, we'll check with the Assessor's Office and the County to clarify that point and then submit documentation to you at a later date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to clear it up when you were making that statement that every piece of property in the town and every piece of property in the county has a Property Description Code. MR. KENNEDY: Well, again, we want to clarify that point so you have the most accurate information and we'll do that. Thank you. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. MS. GRIGONIS: And another thing I might convey to you, several times we've had floods and just last week we had a tree fall down and closed off Victoria Drive and we were all pretty much forced to use Cedar Drive during the five hours and that includes emergency vehicles. If this driveway once it gets put into the house off of the roadway, the unimproved roadway, you know, we're going to have to be clogged with construction vehicles and if something like that happens again, I mean, regularly the end of the road floods. If you go there now you'll see the big flooded area still damp and full of water and you can check the police report from last week of a big huge locust tree that shutdown the road for almost six hours while we all had to use the unimproved roadway -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I know all about that, I was trying to get there when it happened. MS. GRIGONIS: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I must have gone around in circles for 25 minutes trying to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 figure out where the main road was. MS. GRIGONIS: So Pete Harris met with me yesterday and he explained how it works and -- MEMBER DINIZI0: Yeah, but I think you're confusing Pete Harris' definition of a road and a actual definition -- MS. GRIGONIS: He told me that the Assessor's Office (inaudible). this last year with the first MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, right, too. MS. GRIGONIS: MEMBER DINIZIO: We already did the Assessor's application. The Assessor's right too, but you know the letter that we have here it's a right of way and there's a distinct difference between that and a right of way -- between a road and a right of way. MS. GRIGONIS: If you go on Google maps or any Hagstrom Atlas, any Atlas has this as a road. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, I agree with you 100 percent, but in order for it to be a Southold Town -- how do you say it -- recognize roadway, quite honestly, it would -- that would have to be a dedicated road. That Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 would have to be a 50-foot wide paved to a certain specification, whole nine yards and the Town, as I understand it, would not accept any less than that. MS. GRIGONIS: Um-hmm. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so we would -- MS. GRIGONIS: That's why the parcel is 50-foot wide and 505 feet long. MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh yeah, no it was definitely put there there's no doubt about it, but these things get abandoned and obviously this got abandoned. MR. KENNEDY: It's not an abandoned road. MS. GRIGONIS: It's not abandoned. MEMBER DINIZIO: I have to tell you something, who paid the taxes on it? MR. KENNEDY: Again, we submit -- you asked us to submit documentation and I did and in the documentation is a lot of legal research by our attorney who states it's a roadway. That, you know, I ask rather than us who are amateurs, we're not in this field, read her interpretation, the case law that she cites to determine how we, you know, to support this case. The title report is PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 included, this is all in that 470-some-odd page Planning Board file, which has all the title reports. It has the County information in it and it has her legal opinion of how we came to the research that it is in fact a road. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we will give plenty of time and attention to the submissions by everyone. I want to also say that we want to make sure that Ms. Moore has access to all of the documentation as well so she can formally address them at the next hearing. We will have another hearing on this, so all parties can respond to whatever information is forthcoming. Is there someone else that would like to address this application? Please come to the podium. MR. HELGESEN: My name is John Helgesen, I live on Summit Road, which is on the center of Reydon Heights and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell your name for us, sir? MR. HELGESEN: H-E-L-G-E-S-E-N. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. HELGESEN: And we purchased the property in our family when the subdivision was initially made. So I just wanted to bring a little history into this. Initially all the roads were private and together with all the owners we have right of way to the bays and to the back road, North Ba!rview Road. Eventually the original owner of the property who achieved it by deed and (inaudible) his intention was to turn all the roads over to Southold Town, but most of them got turned over and upgraded and turned over except the right of way in question, whereas the owner, I believe, thought it was because it was eventually sold by tax lien cause he thought he did not own the property anymore, but got billed on it. So now you have an opportunity to prevent the negative aspects of that error from perpetuating and that's what the residents are objecting to is the negative aspects of that error on the basis of the Town or the County or the original owner from perpetuating down stream and Barbara who is going to speak PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 before us, right of way she'd have a totally landlocked piece of property if parcel A becomes in litigation again because parcel A is part of the right of way and has no guarantee of access to her house. That water meter that you're talking about is water meter for her house, not water meter for the street, it's a water meter for her house. So this all this -- you have an opportunity to keep an error from perpetuating. That's all I have to say. MEMBER HORNING: error, please? MR. HELGESEN: Could you describe the The error being the Town or whoever was supposed to have picked up that piece of property and developed it like the rest of the roads, was not done. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They didn't do it. MR. HELGESEN: In the 50s, the Town was a little looser on building construction and property division and so on, than we are now, that's how the error was initiated. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you're asking and you're saying that, what? You want it Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 to remain an error or you want the error corrected? MR. HELGESEN: Well, have the error corrected. it would be nice to It would be nice, I doubt that will happen, but we need guarantees in there so that the negative affects of that error won't perpetuate. MEMBER HORNING: And sir, then it would seem by observation if the subdivision was approved, let's say, with proposed lot 2 if their access was through this right of way, which would be maintained better and improved more -- MR. HELGESEN: lot 2 was in that, were part of that. I'm not saying proposed but parcel A and parcel B Now the owners have nicely clarified those parcels, but it also makes it easy to -- it could get confused in a few years from now when individual parcels are sold -- MEMBER DINIZIO: But if you have one more driveway coming off of that right of way, wouldn't it be an improvement then? MR. HELGESEN: If you had a driveway in to parcel A off that right of way would not be PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 a problem. MEMBER HORNING: Right, rather than let's say here we're looking at a proposed substitution where you have this very long driveway coming in from North Bayview at the same time that you have a town road parallel to it. MR. HELGESEN: I -- I'm not sure what you're looking at. MEMBER HORNING: No, it is not. MR. HELGESEN: I'm not seeing -- I haven't seen what you're looking at, so I can't -- MEMBER HORNING: You're in favor of having it as a town road. MR. HELGESEN: as a town road. MEMBER HORNING: MR. HELGESEN: I'm in favor of having it Thank you. Or something put in the situation where five years from now the next Planning Board or the Building Committee or whatever the case may be does not have to go through the same thing year after year after year. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, sir, that's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 what I at the beginning of this hearing asked of the applicant's attorney, if there would be any objection to covenants and restrictions, regardless of what the outcome of this might turn out to be, to make this roadway, whether it's a roadway, right of way, this described vehicular path from Victoria Drive or continuation of Victoria Drive to North Bayview, if that would remain open, unencumbered for public access in perpetuity regardless of the sale of any parcels and the point is that if it is, in fact, something that other people have access to, they have no right to deny access to those parties. So we can in other words address some of the concerns that you have through covenants and restrictions, okay, but what we want to do is hear what everyone's issues are, what everyone's concerns are. We have a couple of new pieces of information, everyone will have a chance to digest it, to come back. I think that if those of you who have consulted an attorney run this information by the attorney and we can have comments from that individual on your Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 behalf or if that person can come and testify at the next hearing and Ms. Moore has an opportunity to see what those comments are so she can also address them. We'll get, you know, keep moving this along and we'll get farther to some sort of resolution one way or another. MR. HELGESEN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're welcome. Is there anyone else who would like to address this and I would like to -- let me see who else is in the audience who wants to address this; can you raise your hand? I'm just trying to pace us a little bit. It's kind of pathetic, but nevertheless we do have a couple of other applications and they're sitting here patiently while we continue and I don't want to rush people, but I would request that you make your comments as focused and as brief as possible. Thank you. Your name? MS. McL~AUGHLIN: Good afternoon. My name is Barbara McLaughlin and I reside at 1075 Victoria Drive, which is the parcel immediately adjacent to the Suttons' property Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 and lot 78 runs completely along the front of my home across two of my driveways. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MS. McLAUGHLIN: I actually had a lot of things I wanted to discuss today, but I guess most of those points were touched upon. There was one thing that really I had sort of an issue with and a question about. On the ZBA application they request five area variance reasons, five reasons that should be submitted in order for the application to be considered, and I know that Ms. Moore brought this up briefly before, but on reviewing the original -- on reviewing her application, which was not the ZBA traditional application, it states on your original application that "the five reasons are the minimum that is necessary," and adequate and minimum is in capital letters, that is necessary "and adequate and at the same time to preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood and the health, safety and welfare of the community." I have two points to make about that. I submitted to you earlier when Ms. Grigonis was presenting, the police report about the road PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 closure since my house is right on the end of Victoria Drive, I was home that afternoon, and I witnessed many cars being directed through that road. So I would just like to say should this appeal be approved that there be made, there be set into place a variance restriction so that this road should always be left available should there be a natural disaster or an emergency situation to serve the community being that it's the only alternative ingress and egress into the Reydon Heights community. Going back to the application that was submitted by Ms. Moore, question 4 was excluded from her application and this states that "The variance will not, and I say not accentuate that because it was also written in capital letters in your application, ~have an adverse affect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district." I just want to say something personally about this and I'll try and keep it short. I have lived at this address since 1997. I chose to purchase this property primarily because of its location. It's very Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 236 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 private, it has a beautiful, natural setting. I, for many years, along with my neighbors have enjoyed the abundance of wildlife there and the peaceful environment and from what I understand from certain of my neighbors who have resided in this community for 30-40 years it's always been the case. There are two Atlantic White Cedar trees which border my property and the Suttons' property. Atlantic White Cedar trees are endangered and my understanding, and I have to verify this, they are protected. I am currently corresponding with the North Fork Environmental Council to make sure that responsible steps are taken to preserve these trees in the event that this appeal should be granted and the construction proceed. But, you know, going back to this final point I wanted to make and I'm going to read this to you if you don't mind. ~The removal of trees in the existing natural buffer on the borders of parcels 54 and 78, which 78 being the roadway, 54 being the Suttons' existing parcel, would destroy the aesthetic and natural beauty that I and my neighbors have PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 enjoyed long before the Sutton family has lived here. I question why the Town would institute specific zoning laws only to make special exceptions for individual interests at the expense of the community. "Last year the citizens of Reydon Heights and the surrounding neighborhood submitted a petition to the Planning Department in opposition to the alteration of parcel 78. More recently the homeowners immediately adjacent to the Sutton property have submitted letters pleading with the ZBA to consider the negative affect this subdivision would confer on the value of their property and more importantly to their right to peacefully enjoy the natural environment they have intentionally chosen as their home. I sincerely and respectfully ask the members of the ZBA to weigh the intent behind the proposed subdivision with the expressed concerns of the neighboring community. I believe the Town Zoning Board should demonstrate an ethical and moral approach in their decision to grant this variance and honor the terms they set forth in their PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 application that is, and I quote, ~To preserve and protect the character of neighborhoods and the health, safety and welfare of the Southold community." Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. I think we had another comment. It's a race to the podium, which one of you wants to go first? MR. KNUDSEN: Good afternoon. My name is Warren Knudsen, 265 Liberty Lane, Southold. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell your last name, please? MR. K/qUDSEN: K-N-U-D-S-E-N. I'd like to thank the Board for two things. For your patience and the adjournment and knowing we'll have a subsequent hearing. I reviewed the file last week and found an old survey from the previous hearing before the Planning Board. (Inaudible) gave us an update, I haven't had a chance to see it yet. It's my understanding it's a modified version which may be a hybrid. You may see on that parcel A and B that's the roadway, you're going to see two lines and a comment on there. It's going to say, ~proposed 3-1/2 foot PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 walkway." It was the intent in this original process to close that road down to a 3-1/2 foot walkway. Those who had right of way would be reduced down to a walkway, which was kind of ~We're giving you something, be thankful for that." So that's -- we're cautious on our comments and I'd like to see that new plan if it's -- the only modification is the size or the numbers, it hasn't changed much from the original. If the original doesn't say that, I'd be more than happy to give you a copy, reducing that roadway to a walkway. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Any other comments? MR. PIETANZA: Good afternoon. I'll try to be as brief as possible. My name is Vito Pietanza and I live at 435 Highwood Road. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please spell your for us. MR. PIET~2qZA: P-I-E-T-A-N-Z-A. My property is attached to the lot that contains the proposed variance; therefore, I am against this proposal. The back of my home PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 240 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 already faces two homes, should the Board allow this variance, the back of my house will now be facing a third home. When we purchased this home many years ago we were completely happy to have two homes in the back of us. Now, we pay a certain consideration for the privacy of that large lot. It wasn't always a single lot and we felt that there would be only one home. We paid that consideration for this assurance and I'm sure my neighbor did likewise. I'm also sure that the applicant in purchasing this property also took that consideration into account. I am surprised that after a short period of time this change is being proposed at a very high cost to the surrounding property owners. I'm also sure that the ZBA Board will take that into account, not only the positive impact that it will have on the applicant, but also the negative impact that it will have on all of us to reverse this clear impression for all of us would be self-aggrandizement for one person and a great detrimental loss for the rest of us. Pugliese CourtReportingand (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. the Board have any other questions at time? MEMBER DINIZIO: this? Does this We're going to continue CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We are going to continue, yes. I think what we're going to do is, in the interest of other applicants today, we've taken plenty of testimony, I want to make sure everybody has an opportunity to review everything that's been submitted and to have ample time to comment. You may submit your comments in writing, if you wish to, to this Board prior to the next hearing. You may bring them to the hearing, whatever you choose to do. We'll make sure that you have access to any of the material submitted, all parties have access to that information. Pat, do you want to make any closing comments or you next hearing? MRS. MOORE: just want to wait 'til the (Inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait and see what's -- okay. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 242 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: an amended submittal? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's possibility for us to consider. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This new map, is this an alternative The one you just gave us? MRS. MOORE: respect to, as Mr. It's just a submission with Goehringer asked how it would look if all the lots were even. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. MRS. MOORE: So I had that map already prepared, so it's for your information. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: The preference would be the original submission. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: with A, B parcels -- MRS. MOORE: With the A, B parcels. Again, the A, B is just for identifying area of that road, just to clarify. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so I'm going to make a motion to adjourn this hearing to August 26th at 2:00 p.m. August 26th hearing date at 2:00 p.m. at which time we will continue discussing this application; is PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 243 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 244 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6353 - Lewis Edson (Adjourned from PH 3/25/10) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is a carryover so there's no need to read the notice. Mr. Edson, would you like to address the Board? MR. EDSON: Sure. Lewis Edson, Main Road, Cutchogue is where I live. When we postponed or continued this meeting from last time the Board has requested that the Town Agricultural Committee be involved in the decision, which they've now done, and the Chairman is here present, and I'll let him speak to the Board about their proposal. The thing that I would like to leave with the Board in making their decision is that I have every intention, I will comply with the ordinance for a farm stand permit as it's written and I will build a divider in the building similar to the walls I already have in there, which are approximately 8 feet high and I will continue them and section off the section of the 3,000 square feet allowed under the ordinance from the back of the building, which will be storage and equipment handling. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 245 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 The only thing that I will do on that wall is put in a door, a solid door similar to that so we can get from one and pass through from one end to the other, just to be able to get from one -- otherwise we're going to have to go out of the building and back in the building. It doesn't make sense. MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, so no public in there, though, right? MR. EDSON: No public. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: However, if it is continuous, if there is a way to get from the 3,000 square foot portion to a storage area, then it is one building. MR. EDSON: Then there won't be a door there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it has to have no door. MR. EDSON: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I regret that you have to go use the bathroom in the back or whatever and go outside to come back in, but that's the only way to consider it an actually distinctly separate building. MR. EDSON: All right, understood. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 246 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If there is a passageway from one section to another then it's still the same building and that is what also the Planning Board, by the way, is suggesting. MR. BAIZ: If I may comment on that, Madame Chairperson, and members of the Board of appeals -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure, just enter your name for the record first, please. MR. BAIZ: Yes. My name is Chris Baiz and I spell the word Baiz correctly, that's B- A-I-Z, not B-A-Y-S. Pardon me, I just had to get that in. When this law was in legislative intent and being drafted, and I guess the primary drafter of that at the time was Councilman William Edwards, so we go back a little ways. We spent probably two and a half years drafting this up. The intention was that a pre-existing building on a farm, such as (Inaudible) potato barn or equipment barn, all steel building or whatever, could be properly partitioned so that a certain square footage of the building could be used for the retail PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 247 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 sales area. I don't want to appear here to be correcting the Board, but it would not be inappropriate to have a doorway moving from the public retail sales area to the office area and the non-public retail sales area within the larger building so that the owner/operator of the farm stand could access additional inventory that's being warehoused in the back and brought forward into the public retail sales area. That's -- I just want to offer that point in terms of what was the intent when this was being originally drafted. We certainly, in the current state, I mean, the applicant could apply with variance for the whole building to be the farm stand so long as the 60/40 requirement in the Farm Stand Code were kept. So I simply want to raise those points and I believe you all have a letter from the Agricultural Advisory Committee. In my role as Chairman I simply serve to put the thoughts together and carry the message, but this is the opinion of the entire committee and it's not just Chris Baiz's personal thoughts on a piece of paper here and our conclusions were Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 that a farm stand permit should be issued without variance and without site plan approval. The property already is a bonafide agricultural operation as defined in the Codes in the Town of Southold. It exceeds 7 acres, it exceeds $10,000.00 in revenue averaged over two consecutive years in terms of revenue production. It's setback more than 50 feet from the road. It has a minimum of four parking spaces, etc., etc. So there's no need for site plan approval. We also did not see the need for a variance so long as the retail sales area meets the criteria of being less than 3,000 or up to, but not more than, 3,000 square feet of the extant building. It's cheaper for a farmer to build one large building and then accommodate the several different things that he might be doing in it like partly his retail sales area, partly his inventory and warehouse for -- up to his 40 percent of offered products that are not his primary agricultural products and also for servicing his farm equipment or storage or what have you and his office space. So if he were required to build two separate buildings PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 with the same square footage it would be more expensive. Farmers don't make a lot of money. I believe John Wickham and now his son continues to reiterate farming is a land rich and cash flow poor kind of business to be in and the Town Agricultural Advisory Committee acts, if nothing else, but as the protestants for agriculture in the Town in part because we really see that we're only going to have a viable long term land preservation program in this Town so long as we can make agriculture profitable. If it's profitable, people won't have to sell the farm. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Okay. MR. BAIZ: Do you have any other questions I can answer in regard to this? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I do. MR. BAIZ: Please. MEMBER DINIZIO: I have to write the decision, so -- MR. BAIZ: Oh okay. All right, fine. Good. Now I know who I have to talk to. MEMBER DINIZIO: I've read most of the paperwork and, you know, I understand the Farm Committee's part of this, but -- and I'm PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25O ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 trying to put in context this door because the doorway seems to be where we could have a little bit of contention and I mean I'm trying to liken it to a winery that I passed not too long ago, maybe yesterday or the day before, to a bunch of lawn chairs all along like the clearing part outside the tasting room, outside the winery itself that to an expansion of that kind of farm stand if you will. You know, a winery -- MR. BAIZ: What do you mean, outside the front door or something? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No, they're in the back. It's a nice little clearing in the field. MR. BAIZ: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: And you know they're taking their business, which is the selling of wine and corkscrews and whatever else and this is just part of where people can go sit and partake of the fruits of that labor. In other words the wine, it's MR. BAIZ: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: this just to enhance that. And I'm just thinking door doesn't define the farm stand, the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 actual 3,000 square feet stand -- MR. BAIZ: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: defines the farm and the doorway defines those lawn chairs. I mean it's just another part of what goes on in a farm, i.e. whatever he's storing, his trees or he's doing work. I mean they could do the work without the cover of a roof or they could do it with the cover of the roof in a nice heated place. They could do it both ways and it could get done just as you can sit out on a lawn chair at a winery. You can do that same thing inside, you know, the tasting room if it were big enough. So I'm just wondering, the door itself, I'm sure, Mr. Edson, you're not considering it as part of the farm stand. You're considering it as part of your business. MR. BAIZ: His warehouse, his storage, his office. MEMBER DINIZIO: tree farming. Yeah, the business of it MR. BAIZ: The door would say, just like does in any other establishment, "Employees Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 252 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 only, no admittance". MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. We have to get passed this 3,000 square feet. We have to get to that point of how to define that and I understand. So I want to encourage this, I think that you're right. Mr. Edson could build a farm stand 3,000 square feet somewhere else on his property, I'm assuming, am I right? MR. EDSON: With doors. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. You could do it anywhere 3,000 square feet or you could do it in this building that exists already. MR. BAIZ: Which was the original legislative intent. We did not have Mr. Edson's agricultural operation in the fronts of our mind at that time. MEMBER DINIZIO: No. MR. BAIZ: What we had was the economies for the agricultural community so they didn't have to go out and build a separate building for what takes place behind the door. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well that's what I was getting at with the chairs. MR. BAIZ: Yeah. Yeah, because -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 253 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I was getting at because -- MR. BAIZ: Yeah, cause I mean per square foot that's twice the price when you have to build a separate building. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right, so the door is not a fire door because it's not a fire wall, right? It's just going to be an 8- foot high wall and you could yell over it. You could throw Christmas trees over the wall if you could reach that high. MR. EDSON: It's a 16-foot ceiling. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right, but the walls are going to be 8-foot high, just standard 2 by 4 whatever, you know, with sheetrock or whatever you're going to put on it and a doorway. MR. EDSON: There are already partial walls in the building. MEMBER DINIZIO: Um-hmm. MR. EDSON: And two of them come together with about a 12-foot opening presently and my intent is just to close that 12 feet, which on some of the surveys I gave you last time define the 3,000 square feet of the retail PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 254 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 area. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay, I think I have enough. MR. BAIZ: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: I appreciate your help. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'd just like to make a comment. I personally don't have a problem with the door access from retail to your other operation provided it's limited access obviously from the public. MR. BAIZ: That's what it should be and must be. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's just me saying that. MR. door. Jim, not. EDSON: It will have the sign on the MR. BAIZ: Yeah. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I think I agree with if that's what Jim was trying to say or MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I agree with him also. MR. BAIZ: Are we good? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have no questions. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 255 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm good. MEMBER DINIZIO: We don't know that yet. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we don't know that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: I have been asked I have been asked by someone who had been in the audience for a long time, but had to leave, because we were getting so out of whack with out time, to read into the record a -- so you can also hear it Mr. Baiz -- MR. BAIZ: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- a letter. This is from Ray Huntington for the Fleetsneck -- MR. BAIZ: Homeowners. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, homeowners and it says the following: "Of course you will decide this request based upon conformity to Chapter 72 which describes farm stand uses, that is proper, but we ask you to be aware that there is a long history of non-conformity to the community agreement we call the Town Code on this parcel. The Town has issued a number of citations and judgments have been issued against the violator. The operation of a retail store on Main Road and Pequash Avenue Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 increases traffic accident risk, yet the applicant continues to push the envelope out of self-interest only. This behavior should be considered in determining whether the potential conformance to Chapter 72 exists now or will in the future. Since the majority of the sales value is derived from Christmas tree ornaments, lights, decorations, etc., not grown on the parcel or in the town, as judged by the out of town traffic entering and leaving, the application should be denied. Operations on the site are not within letter or spirit of Chapter 72. The town supports agriculture as an expanded industry we agree, but the growing of Christmas trees on this property is not a significant portion of the business being conducted." That's the completion of the letter. I would like to say that I think some of these issues have been addressed in the previous hearing. I believe the applicant, these issues were settled in court. The applicant is attempting to comply with the current Code as it is written and I just personally want to add that; however, we have had testimony that PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 257 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 you are aware of the fact that somehow the -- we didn't require it, but the Planning Board at one point had asked for some verification that you're sales would be 40 percent accessory to the principal sale of Christmas trees and wreaths that you would be producing from -- MR. EDSON: Right, that's part of the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- boughs grown on the premises, that those boughs would be brought into the interior space, the 3,000 square foot portion, and you would be actually making them up and selling them from the inside or the outside of that area. That the retail portion would probably be that front room and I'm just reiterating that for this hearing's record; is that correct, Mr. Edson? MR. EDSON: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. BAIZ: If I could -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just simply want to link the past hearing with this one. MR. BAIZ: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So just to refresh people's memories on this. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 258 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. BAIZ: If I can address that point a little more expansively on the 60/40 relationship. When the original legislative drafting was taking place, it was the intent that 60 percent or more of the values offered were direct from the farm production, okay, and that they were, you know, not processed materials like jellies and jams or wine or whatever you, but that that was the principal, primary agricultural product, but in the law it is not what you have actually taken in in revenue, but it is what you have offered in display in your retail sales area and up to 40 percent, the remaining 40 percent is what is offered, but not to exceed 40 percent of the value offered for sale, and as I pointed out in the Agricultural Advisory Committee's comments and, just to be clear on that, in understanding paragraph 72-7A and B 1-4, please understand that the foregoing is ~offered" products. "Though a farmer may turn his inventory under 72-7A, which is his principal farming product, only once per year, he could turn his inventories," in 72-7B 1-4, ~many times per Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 259 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 year and still be in compliance with Chapter 72." That is the way the law stands and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So let me get -- MR. BAIZ: -- part of this was done so that farming wasn't a part-time job, so that a farmer could have wintertime sales. I mean everybody else I know of gets a paycheck 52 weeks a year, but a farmer was stuck with what he had at his little farm stand and when we were writing this, drafting this legislation over the years I did a windshield cruise of the Town of Southold and I drove all over looking for anything that looked like a farm stand from a card table on up and I counted 32 in the entire town from some dumb little shack that hadn't been used for 25 years to card tables to the 5 or 6 principal farm stands in the town and we don't need to name names. We know what the (inaudible) all are, what farms they belong to, and yet one of those principal farm stands they had to shutdown by late November early December because the poor woman standing behind the counter with her fingertip cut-off mittens or what have you so she could have some PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 260 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 dexterity, it was just getting too cold in there for her and our effort was to provide a continuing source of revenue through the year that helps a farm family get by a little bit better cause there is no money in this business until we make it 100 percent tourism/consumer retail at our front doors in this kind of environment where we are not asked to protect $3,000.00 a acre or $500.00 an acre farmland like my soybean farmer friends out in Illinois. We're protecting $100,000.00 an acre land and keeping it open and it's tough to do being asked to do it on what normally grows on $500.00 or $3,000.00 an acre land. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me do some follow up questions regarding what you just said for clarification for the Board. MR. BAIZ: Sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You are saying that it isn't a 40 percent revenue versus a 60 percent revenue, income in other words from sales, but rather -- MR. BAIZ: What's reported on your tax return. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MR. BAIZ: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. You're saying that the law indicated, quoting here, "offered for sale". MR. BAIZ: That's right. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: That would mean non display." MR. BAIZ: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that would mean 60 percent of what was on display in that building would have to be trees and wreaths. MR. BAIZ: We advised Mr. Edson of that and he said -- well, I'll let him say it -- but when the Agricultural Advisory Committee visited his operation back in May, we were very candid with the applicant on that point and he demonstrated to us at that time how he would be setting up the space to accomplish that and quite honestly we told him you don't need eight Santa Clauses in a row sitting on the shelf, have one, and then every time that gets sold you go through the little doorway in the wall and bring another one out from the warehouse in the back. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 262 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: there are two issues just said. MR. BAIZ: Yes, ma'am. The point is that that relate to what you CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One is that in previous testimony Mr. Edson told us that your business is relatively seasonal, that you have, you know, a sign on your door -- MR. EDSON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- simply because people may come out in the fall and want to tag when it's warm enough a Christmas tree to be dug or cut later on. All right and then at a certain point after the Christmas season when things taper off, then you go back into the growing situation and you're not -- your retail store is not even open to the public. MR. EDSON: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that -- will that continue to be the case? MR. EDSON: That's correct. That's correct, the building's not set up for it either. There's no air conditioning in the building, it's absolutely miserable in there during the summertime, but in the 24 years PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 263 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 I've been doing it there it has broken down that starting on Labor Day people start thinking about Christmas and when they start thinking about it is when I want to be open. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So I just wanted to bring that point up again to just make sure that we understand that in your case, unlike other farmers where the crops are primarily in the summer and the fall, you may begin in the fall. Your growing season is maybe the summer, but your sales is in the fall through the spring let's say. Okay, that's one thing. MR. BAIZ: Well, up until four days after Christmas, let's say. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well -- MR. BAIZ: I'm speaking for the applicant CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, but he had told us -- he had told us when he wants to operate his business. MR. BAIZ: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But what is different today than what I've heard previously is that -- because we talked about PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 264 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 as a Board the difficulty when you really are balling and burlaping a tree that's dug from the field, are you going to -- I think Ken's analogy was that if the strawberries were as big as Christmas trees they wouldn't be on the stand either, you know, for display. So how do you then put 60 percent of what you're offering visually, now it's actual merchandise, it's a material physical thing. They have to be trees and wreaths according to what we just heard, whereas 40 percent can be the retail accessory items that you bring in to sell in order to -- MR. EDSON: I think the equation has to be similar to going into a field and picking a pumpkin then going into a farm stand, nobody's taking that pumpkin bringing it in or putting the building in the field over where you would go pick a pumpkin. If you just transfer that thought from a pumpkin to a Christmas tree, obviously, that tree is not going to be inside the building, but in my operation certainly the area where a lot of sales are done are through the wreaths, both plain and decorated, which we make on the premises from trees that PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 265 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 grow on the farm, but if you're asking me if I'm going to bring balled trees into the building, no, and I don't think Horace is going to bring the pumpkins inside his farm stand either. I think each operation, each farm operation is going to be somewhat different in the way it's (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, they're going to have to be, they're different products, but I want the record to be -- MR. EDSON: I don't see -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- very clear because we now understand that the intent of the law was not 40 percent of your revenue versus 60 percent -- MR. BAIZ: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- but on what you offer the public. MR. EDSON: Um-hmm. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And according to this, it's written that it should be within the retail sales area. Now it is not necessarily feasible to bring 60 percent of your trees, you know, into the retail area. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 266 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 So I think it's important, as a precedent, that we kind of come to understand the distinctions and how your business is going to operate relative to this. I mean it's very hard to write a Code that covers everything. I don't know of another Christmas tree -- and I'd love to hear other comments -- I don't know of another Christmas tree operation that has such a large potential farm stand. Usually they're just pretty small with a field out there. People go and have them cut or dug up and they -- MR. BAIZ: Well, not in the Town of Southold certainly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. I'm saying within our Town. MR. BAIZ: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And so this is quite an unusual exceptional situation, which I don't particularly envision experiencing very often anymore, but the Board has to be very clear because this is the first time we've had this particular kind of thing before us and we want to be very certain that the decisions that we make reflect the intent of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 267 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the Code, but that also are responsible in addressing the kind of operation that you have because there may be some other Christmas tree operator who decides to come before us for a large structure that they want to -- I don't know. There's no way to know it, I just know that typically this is not how Christmas tree farms operator relative to a farm stand. So maybe you want to make some comments about that. MR. EDSON: All I can do is set it up the best I can and then have it reviewed by the Building Department. Let them make the decision. I don't know what else, you know, I can set up the operation where it shows where the wreaths are being made, but the wreaths are only made during the time of Christmas. They're not made, you know, at Labor Day. MR. BAIZ: September, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course. MR. EDSON: So I can only say that I will comply with the ordinance and I think it's going to be (inaudible) and if it has to be changed, then it will be changed, but going with the spirit of doing it the way the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 268 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 ordinance requires. MR. BAIZ: MR. EDSON: to answer. Yeah. I mean it's a very hard thing CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup, it is, but I want to give you every opportunity to -- MR. EDSON: I know. I don't see any peach trees growing in the farm stand. You have to go out, you have to get them. You have to go out and you have to get the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's a lot easier to put -- nobody's digging up the peach trees. The peaches are for sale and the point is a lot of people -- MR. EDSON: But people go and pick them off the trees. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, they do. Yes, they do, but you normally have the peaches also on the stand and you will have some of your produce, you know, what you're growing within your building. MR. EDSON: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But it's a little different, so I just wanted us to have full disclosure and full opportunity to think PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 269 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 through all the issues. MR. BAIZ: I think you're looking at it correctly and, just to conclude on that point, the 60/40 was intended as a going forward in the course of business over the season or the year or what have you and the reason that the farm stand permit was not to be issued only after there was clear and present proof that this is exactly what it was going to be. I mean we're trying to help agriculture stay agriculture here and that someone come along and come in and say, well, today you've got 41 percent of trinkets and only 59 percent of your primary Ag production, you're in violation. You know, it's not just on a balance sheet type basis where at this moment in time we expect that it may go a little bit one way or the other, but if there is a clear violation and there are complaints to that violation, the Town Building Department has the right to revoke the farm stand permit. So -- and then we start over again or the business plan gets readjusted and I think that Ag Advisory recognizes that it's a little fluid, a little squishy in that area, but PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 270 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 we're trying to accommodate farming and this is really the first big farm stand permit request that we are aware of at the Ag Advisory and when we were -- had the legislation and public hearing, the number of people that go up and spoke about the horrors of having 3,000 square foot farm stands all up and down the Main Road, you know, nobody's in a hurry in farming to put up $150.00 a square foot buildings because it's an awful expensive way to sell a $0.75 head of cauliflower, etc. So -- but we have to have some way to be prepared to make agriculture in this town be able to generate the kind of revenues that it's going to take to survive on $100,000.00 an acre of land for the future and we're trying to get ready for that future now because I think it just got here yesterday. Thanks. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see what other comments, anyone else in the audience want to address the Board? MR. SCHWARTZ: I've been here for almost three hours. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So have we. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 271 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: name for the record. Six hours. Please state your MR. SCHWARTZ: My name is Benja Schwartz and I live off of Pequash Avenue, which this business is opposite Pequash Avenue. I have one brief question and then I'd like to read two statements. I had at least a dozen people ask me to come and speak today, they couldn't be here, but I think we need to consider the residents of Southold not just the farmers' interest. The Agriculture Advisory Committee is fine, but maybe we need a Rural Residents' Advisory Committee maybe it's not such a good idea to preserve farming by turning into big box retail cause that's what we're talking about here today. My question is how could they be -- you're saying put one Santa Claus on the shelf and then open the door and get to the warehouse in the back? What is the -- you know, the law which was passed and I was at the public hearings and we tried to consider all the possibilities of what could happen, is very clear it says, ~in all cases the farm PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 272 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 stand structure shall not exceed 3,000 square feet in total floor area." Now, I don't understand how you could say you're going to partition a building and call it two buildings because there's such thing as a townhouse, but with all due respect, 3,000 was quite a large building to shallow. Now, this building happens to be hidden, but the next one might be out in plain view of the Main Road and, you know, a barn is a barn, a store is a store. If you're going to combine the two and especially I would like to -- would like to ask if maybe at of (inaudible), if the intent maybe the Board the conclusion is to use the rear of that building, the 7,000 square feet for warehouse purposes, for essentially part of the retail use. I don't think that is in compliance with the law. Let me just not waste your time, I'd like to go home, too. Can I read two statements? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure. MR. SCHWARTZ: The first one is from Nancy Sawastynowitz, something like that, Sawastynowitz. ~Thank you for permitting someone to read PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 273 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 my letter at the hearing. On Monday, last week June 28tn at approximately 5:30 p.m. on my way home from work I was waiting in the turning lane to turn into Pequash Avenue and there was a long line of traffic coming in the other direction. There was a break in the traffic and one car pulled out. The car behind followed without looking, bang, the two cars crash. Well, after seeing the accident this is directly in front of the location of the Christmas Tree Farm, I'd like to point out to the Board once again what that impact brought to my attention, how dangerous an intersection we're talking about here. '~So I'm against the requested variance because of the adverse affect it would have on the traffic conditions to allow the largest retail Christmas Store in the northeast to be approved as a farm stand is way out of line. This property owner has been breaking the law for well over 20 years. The Planning Board and the Building Department disapproved it. The Supreme Court ruled against Santa's Christmas Tree Farm and the second loss was brought by Southold Town. We thought we'd PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 274 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 won, but now it looks like we -- this Board might grant this business a permit. This would set a negative precedent in our Town, just build whatever you want, pay a fine, make some friends and get out of jail free. ~Please say no to this request. Real farm stands are an important part of the rural way of life on the north fork not huge retail stores." That's Nancy's. The bottom line as I see it is that the definition of accessory needs to be better defined in connection with this application. In dictionaries we find definitions such as something of subordinate or supplementary importance, not essential in itself, but adding to the beauty, convenience or effectiveness of a principal thing. How does Southold Town define the word accessory? A recently permitted accessory garage/pool house on Fleetwood Road would become an illegal secondary principal use. Docks are usually considered to be accessory uses, but Southold Town has permitted docks on properties without principal uses, turning the accessories into PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 275 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 principal uses. In the context such as permitting accessory apartments, the definition is unclear. The recently passed accessory apartment law permits an accessory apartment in an accessory building, but only if it is an accessory use of the accessory building. This application, the ZBA is presented with the issue of how to define accessory in the context of Southold Town Code part 2, Chapter 72 agricultural uses law. Consider the definition of farm stand in the law; any structure used for the purpose of retail sales of locally produced agricultural products. Now, is that what we're talking about here or are we talking about a structure used for the sale of imported designer collectibles? The law continues, as well as the accessory sale of processed agricultural products, agriculturally related products and incidental accessory items. Now, I don't know what incidental accessory items are, but I know that they are supposed to be the accessories not the main point of the store and with all due respect we just had the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 276 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Chairman of the authors of this law come here and tell us that he pointed out that the law talks not about the actual sales but about what is offered in 60/40 percentage, but as he pointed out the business could actually be 90 percent -- he didn't say 90 percent, but it could be a much greater percentage of incidental accessory items than principal items. That's not what accessory means, that's not what this law says. I note that this law says that all of the agricultural products offered for sale have to be grown within the Town of Southold. At least 60 percent by the owner or lessee of the farm stand and it's permitted to have up to 40 percent agricultural products grown by some other person or entity engaged in bonafide agricultural production within the Town of Southold and not including agricultural products not grown within the Town of Southold. So you cannot legally sell one ear of corn or a tomato or grape or whatever according to this law in a farm stand that has a permit under this law if it's not grown in Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 277 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the Town of Southold. Now, the practice may be different out there, but we're here to apply the law and with all due respect the drafters of the law, they had their intent, but when we went to a public hearing process and we settled on specific language in the law and your job is to interpret that language. Their intent is one factor which you are entitled, obligated, you know, you need to consider, but when you have people coming here and talking about things that are, you know, that are completely unenforceable and illogical, I don't know how much weight you want to give to their opinions because that's what they are. To quote from the summary judgment decision, do you know what a summary judgment decision is? You have an attorney, she can advise you. Summary judgment is when the Court says, "I don't need to have a trial. I don't need to hear testimony or evidence. On the papers presented to start this lawsuit it's obvious," what did he say is obvious? He said, ~there is no logical whereby the above enumerated list," what was being sold at the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 278 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 store, "can be considered to constitute usual and customary accessories to an agricultural operation." End of story, that's it. You have the definition of the farm stand in the law and this store doesn't meet it and I, with all due respect, would suggest that the proper thing for this Board to do would be to apply the law and disallow this application. End of story. However, there's a thing called dicta. A quasi-judicial board, such as yourself, is entitled to authorize and expected in some cases when it's appropriate to look into some other issues and I have some notes here about the 60/40 limits in Section 72-7.4 which specifically establish maximum and minimum quantities of produce and other items offered for sale. When it is as clear as it is in this case that the ~farm stand" applied for is really a retail store, selling farm stand products only as a symbolic focus, the ~farmer" should not be given the opportunity to present evidence of the relative dollar value of the agricultural products and imported accessories. You're not just not giving him Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 279 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the opportunity; you never got an answer to your Chairman's question. How is this proposed permitee going to comply with the law as it is on the books? We don't know. Furthermore, the phrase in the law ~agricultural related products and incidental accessory items" should be defined and we maybe need the Town Board to get involved and do some more legislative refining of this law, but it is your position right now to start the ball rolling and make a stab at it with a quasi-judicial definition interpretation of what this law means by agriculturally related products and incidental accessory items. I do not believe that the kind of imported manufactured items imported from China and Taiwan and who knows where that are sold in this store have any place in a bonafide agricultural business in Southold Town and I've lived here for longer than you have determined and I have been working in the agricultural industry. I don't own a farm, but I've spent many, many hours in the field and in the tasting rooms and in the stores, and now I'm working currently as a delivery Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 280 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 for a perennial nursery and I love farming, but I know that farming is not always above reproach. You know farms have done a lot of damage to the environment and I submit to you that if we permit box stores to be -- and stores selling the kinds of things that this stores intends to and has been selling for the past 20 years, we will not be protecting farming we will be signing a death warrant for farming in the Town of Southold. A separate issue is the Section 72-8 maximum size of the farm stand, which very clearly expressly prohibits farm stands from being located in buildings greater than 3,000 square feet in total floor area. There's no allowance in that section for partitioning any part of the building. If you imagine almost a 10,000 square foot building then you take 3,000 square feet one-third of that, now if you were to partition off 80 square feet, that's the minimum size for the farm stand, that would be a little fraction of that space, but 3,000 square feet you're not just adding a little bit in this second part of the building, it's more than -- it's tripling the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 281 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 size of the permitted building. With all due respect, that does not comply with this law with or without a door. Without a door, you are inviting completely unenforceable behavior on the part of the applicant. Even with a door he could still use it as a warehouse in the back, but I haven't even heard anybody ask him if he plans to use it as a warehouse. I don't even know what your position is whether that's legal or not or whether that's going to be prohibited. Granting any variance on this case would result in preservation of undesirable changes which have already been produced in the character of the neighborhood. We don't have to talk about what might happen, it's already happened. Permitting this business to continue would continue the detriment to nearby properties that have been created by the existence and continuing operations of this unpermitted retail store. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Benja, in the interest of time, may I ask you -- MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm finished. That's all I have to say. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 282 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else in the audience that wishes to address this application? Let me hear other comments before we listen to -- MRS. MOORE: Okay. Sorry, I'm just a resident of Southold here and not speaking as a lawyer. I just want to -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let the record reflect that -- MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. Pat Moore speaking as a resident of Southold who has bought Christmas trees at Mr. Edson's place and other places and I want to commend Mr. Edson on being a pioneer in Agro-tourism. I participated in the tourism -- the booths and so on and there was always an effort to increase tourism. Now that we have it, there's -- you know, the hope is to quash it. I think sometimes if any pioneers, the Code has to catch up to them. I've always been disappointed in Town Boards, including the one my husband sat on, which was that this use should have been permitted as an agro-tourism use throughout. The Town Board should have Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 283 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 cleaned that up long ago and Mr. Edson should have been permitted to continue. I think his use is a very good use that has extended the season and the people to come out and enjoy this area up through Christmas and for many years we've rolled up our sidewalks at the end of the summer and all the businesses had to rely on what was here in the summer and that was it. Mr. Edson was the first to bring the people out and have them see the pumpkin fields and see the Christmas trees and really extend the season. I'm happy to hear that the farm stand Code has provided some avenue of relief. It seems that Mr. Edson is willing to live within the bounds of the farm stand Code and I would hope that you grant that application. I, as you said yourself, very few are going to fit this criteria and as far as concerns, site planning of these Ag buildings is going to satisfy the concerns of Mr. Schwartz, Benja Schwartz has raised as far as site planning. So I personally hope you grant this application and I hope Mr. Edson can continue to function in this community and provide a PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 284 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 valuable use. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you. MR. BAIZ: If I may speak one more CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: summary comments. MR. BAIZ: Yes. Just You may make time? some of all, the reason that the law now states 3,000 square feet we were between 3,000 and 4,000 for the retail sales area of the building, that's the public area where you can buy the farm products and related items was that that was what the New York State Department or Division of Agriculture and Markets determined was reasonably unrestrictive. Farm stands upstate don't look like farm stands here on the exist today. Farm stands upstate are north fork that large square footage buildings and I've never visited one, but if you, you know, we always take the Harbes Farm Stand as an example that is sort of an amalgamation of a number of ideas from farm stands from all over upstate that the Harbes family brought here and said look this PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 two things. First 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 285 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 is what agriculture is doing somewhere else and unfortunately for my grandfather and other grandfathers out here they didn't get enough time to get off the north fork to see what the rest of agriculture was doing in the United States and that's why, in many cases, we're still practicing the grandfather method of farming. But in the law, the retail sale -- definition of retail sales area in Chapter 72 says, "dedicated to the marketing and sales of farm stand products including public restrooms, but excluding storage areas, temporary display areas, and other areas not accessible to the general public, which immediately implies that you're building is larger than 3,000 square feet if you want to have the maximum retail sales area of 3,000 square feet. So 72-6A2 72-4 of retail point I want this is here, the letter I Chairperson, and also just the definition in sales area, okay. The other to make is that the only reason as I understand, it based upon received from you, Madame is that there was a Notice of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 286 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Disapproval from the Building Department to issue the farm stand permit "based on the proposed use of the existing building as a farm stand is not permitted per Chapter 72 Article 1 Section 72-4 definitions." I think that the Agricultural Advisory Committee has clarified that, in fact, this does fit the definition of a farm stand when appropriately partitioned. Okay and the other issue was also pursuant to Article 1 Section 72-6C requires site plan review. Now, I have only informally heard that Planning said this isn't their business and there's no site plan review required here for this. So I mean those are the issues that have to be dealt with by this Board, not whether if the applicant is selling Christmas trees and as we pointed out in our report the Agricultural Advisory Committee commented on that 72-7B-4 ~other accessory items but limited to the specific farm stand agricultural operation such as decorative house wares, planters, and like items." See Christmas trees, see Christmas decorations such -- so it is relevant to the specific farm PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 287 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stand. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Edson, do you have any comments you'd like to make? MR. EDSON: I've said everything I can, whatever, I'll comply. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does the Board have any other comments? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, then I'm going to make a motion to close this hearing, reserve decision to a later date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 288 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6361 - Nick Mihalios (Adjourned from PH 4/22/10.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no need to read the legal notice. MRS. MOORE: Just to recap, at the last hearing Mr. Goehringer asked if my client could put some colored tape or some indication where he would be willing to cut the fence down to make it as conforming as possible and he did do that. I took photographs which I'm going to give to you, but I only have the one set, I'm sorry, but I'll describe it on the record. He owns two properties, there's the house parcel and then the vacant parcel that is landscaped and the two properties are treated as one piece by the Mihalios family. The fence that is showing on the -- I have a survey. The one that I'm looking at is the for tax lot 73 that's the vacant parcel. That survey shows the vegetation in the front which as you recall from photograph these photographs show that there are 25-foot cedar or cypress all along the front property line and the fence that's behind it is 4-feet along PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 289 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 the street frontage. Then when it turns to go down along the property line, the fence is presently at the 7 feet. Mr. Mihalios has indicated and he has stated on the record, that he is willing to cut down the front of the fence from the strand, from that corner, back to the front line of his house. It's the front that continues -- the front wall is where the fence begins. At that point, that front yard, which I would imagine is the front yard setback of the house, he'll cut that down to a 4-foot compliant height; however, at that point he would ask that the fence run up and be measured -- measuring from the neighbor's grade because the problem here is that my client's grade and the neighbor's grade are different. The neighbor has soil and the grade has changed so it's higher than my client's property and he would like to keep the measurement taken from the neighbor's grade. From the last hearing you know that the neighbor's house is still -- has been under construction. There's been a building permit Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 290 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 open since 2001 and the house will continue to be under construction as the neighbor is certainly entitled to have a building permit that there's no timeline on how long a house can be under construction. So it's for his own security and for his own privacy, to keep that fence in place. We've shown the fence where it goes from 3 feet to the 7 feet and then it runs along the -- I'm sorry, let me clarify. The picture is (inaudible). I'm sorry, looking at the photograph and just clarifying so I don't misstate it, he's taken the tape and shown it at the 7 feet, but it looks -- it's at different levels at each of the pieces of fence because the grade changes with a retaining wall on the neighbor's property. So you're seeing the gradation of the height. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, Pat, if I might for just one second. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I certainly went back and took a look. I think most people did. MRS. MOORE: I Oh, you did. I'm sorry, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 291 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wasn't sure -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. We requested that it be taped out and as a consequence we all went back and saw it. MRS. MOORE: Great. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I think we have about three panels from the street at a conforming 4-foot height and I measured about five panels at about 6 feet and then three panels at about 7, then to the full existing il-foot height down to the bluff. Now that's measuring it from the applicant's property and not necessarily from the neighbor's property. MRS. MOORE: See that's what it looked like to me, but he's telling me it's measured from his property 7 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I said. I'm measuring it from his property. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but he's telling me that measuring from his property each one of those, the one you describe at 6 is actually 7, that's why I'm -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what would be most helpful, because these are visual judgments. Nobody has measured, you measured PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MIHALIOS: Yes, I measured it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- but what we don't -- and we have a visual judgment because we went out there and saw it, but I didn't take a tape with me. So what I think we're going to need is -- and after we close the hearing -- but what I think we're going to need is something on the survey that just shows the running length of each of those sections and the height from your grade understanding that it will have a different visual impact on the neighbor's experience of those heights. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Right, what I would suggest is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You could have it from either side, you know, what is the height on your side, what is the height on the neighbor's side a lineal -- MRS. MOORE: just on the, you know, kind of Yes. MR. MIHALIOS: She did it from our side, this is what we're proposing. This survey shows exactly exactly (inaudible). PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 293 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: On your side. MR. MIHALIOS: Yes, except the (inaudible) the line of my house, I conform with a 4-foot fence and we can draw this whole thing again, but the rest of the fence is according to the tape measure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right and it climbs up and up. So what we need is how many lineal feet at what height, that's all. MRS. MOORE: Okay, so I can take that drawing and have the daughter -- your daughter is an architectural designer. MR. MIHALIOS: Yes. MRS. MOORE: What we'll do is we'll take this, we'll show the panels -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Show how many panels at what height. MRS. MOORE: Yes and then we'll show the next set of panels. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, from the road to the bluff. That's all we need. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Well, this is actually to scale. I had that originally done requesting each panel to be shown. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: So we'll CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 294 we can, you know, as long as it's clear what you're proposing as an amended relief requested -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we still request the 7 feet at the Sound end where the retaining wall is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: -- that's the most important part and that's at 7 feet taken from the top of the elevation of the retaining wall elevation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's on the neighbor's side. MRS. MOORE: On the neighbor's side, that's the thing. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's still a height variance cause 6-1/2 is what is -- MRS. MOORE: Well, because if you're measuring from our side it's 4 feet more -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: variance on your side. It's a height Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 show that on this. Yeah. If you do that, and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 295 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: -- because the neighbor has -- starts with a 1-foot retaining wall, then it gets to a 3-foot and then finally a 4-foot retaining wall. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let me ask a question. Is it possible from the neighbor's property that the highest fence measured at their grade is Code conforming to 6-1/2 feet? MRS. MOORE: Well, could it be? Well, what she's asking is could from the neighbor's side this be 6-1/2 feet. MR. MIHALIOS: (Inaudible) 7-feet, I'm accept it 6-1/2 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, all that means is that, you know, that would be -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, from the neighbor's side. MR. MIHALIOS: Yeah, from the neighbor's I would accept 6-1/2 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, that would be code conforming at their grade. MRS. MOORE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and that would -- we wouldn't have to be dealing with that. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 296 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 Your side because it's considerably lower is another unusual situation. MRS. MOORE: Right. MR. MIHALIOS: And the problem that I had (inaudible) recently the deer they come and they ruin the whole property there. That's why I request for 7 feet. If the Board feels that it's too high, I will accept the 6-1/2. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Question from anybody? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you for the inspection of your home. You were very gracious. MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm glad you all made it back. At least you should have told me I had no idea. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I almost stayed for dinner. CFIAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think (inaudible) or I would have moved quicker. I think the neighbor's here, did you want to make any comments, sir? of MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Good afternoon members the Board. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 297 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good afternoon. Just please state your name. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: My name is Peter Panagopoulos. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you have to spell that again for us. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: P-A-N-A-G-O-P-O-U-L-O- S. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Peter is the first name. I'm west of Mr. Mihalios vacant lot. I understand my house for a long time under construction because thanks to my neighbors my retaining wall was not supposed to be there, there was no need for a retaining wall as I mentioned in the first hearing we had, but Mr. Mihalios pounding on the Department of Buildings made me put a retaining wall, which all the lot sloping down and including the lot that his house is east of me there is no retaining wall why his ground is above the lot east of him? He never put up a retaining wall, but he forced me with the Department of Buildings they gave me a stop order for almost PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 298 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 a year it took me before I go through hearings and everything else in order to put that retaining wall while Mr. Mihalios has violated every rule in this book and made this department and any department feel the same. He excavated on the bluff, he put that fence all around the two properties that he owns and on the bluff, never fined, never gave a summons and today he has the face to come and say that he's going to put up a fence because he wants privacy. It's not because he wants privacy. He put up those (inaudible) trees which he cut my view after I spend thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a view and he took that view away from me, which is okay and doesn't matter. There's one God to see all that, but the fence, 9-feet fence, and nobody's mentioned is 9-feet the fence. It's not 7 feet and he's asking for a variance or he's asking for permission to put up a fence for his whatever reason. Yes, that fence is going to be laying situated on his property, so therefore we have to go by his property not where my retaining wall is because if that fence was on my property then PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 299 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 we count from my property. that. He's going to situate He's asking for that fence on his property, so we have to measure from his property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: We will be doing that. We will be doing that, but what my -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Also -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: My -- please go ahead. I don't want to interrupt you. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Okay, I'm sorry. And also he tied his fence and tilted the fence in such a way that looks so ugly. The idea is to discredit me because on the east side where his house is he has a fence which is 6 feet, not even 6 feet and if you see it, anybody went there, he just planted trees there. So he just violated another rule. What is it 100 feet from the bluff you're not supposed to erect anything without any permission? So he tied his fence, the ugly fence, right against the railroad ties, which eventually the winds, the tremendous winds there is going to pull those railroad ties down and not to mention that Mr. Mihalios and Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3OO ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 I look at him in his face and I'll tell him he approached me once by the fence. He says, why do you bring it higher, put a concrete wall? He gave me a contract once he wanted me to put a concrete wall there. He had planted all that just to discredit my house to make it look ugly and it is an ugly fence and if that's permitted he should remove that fence completely and put on the inside of his trees so let him enjoy -- see it. Not me, I have to go on my knees bleed my hands get ticks on me all over my body to clean up that fence constantly throughout the year because the sun side is on the west side and naturally nothing grows on his side but between that fence and into my property. I have to maintain it, I didn't create it. He should remove it completely and if there was a need for a fence because I was forced to put a retaining wall, then I'll put up a fence, something that will not change the aesthetic, the character of the area. He doesn't see that fence from where he is, so (inaudible). Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 301 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISM~-N: So let's suppose the fence -- suppose the height variance, which is a substantial variance from the neighbor's on the neighbor's property, suppose that fence were located so that it was screened from your view by the evergreens and to screen the fence if the applicant wishes from his own view -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: I'm sorry, I -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I said if the fence MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's now on the applicant's property, but there are evergreens on his side of the fence that screen -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that cyclone fence from his view, but not from yours. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If the applicant had a height variance to accomplish what he wants, but the fence was on his side of the evergreens and if he wanted to screen that from his own view he could plant another row of evergreens so that it was between PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 302 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 evergreens. I mean that's up to him. How would you feel about that? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well, as I said, I cannot change the law and I don't want to make something that is illegal because if it is illegal to be 9-feet fence what's the difference where it is? Again, if it's okay with this department it becomes (inaudible) it doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't make me a slave to be maintaining that fence plus to look so ugly because I spent so much money and to have 9-feet link fence leaning like this and you know it's about 10 feet away from my house. It's a real shame. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are leaves getting caught in the cyclone fence and things like that? When you say you have to maintain it, it is on his property, but you're seeing it. Are leaves and debris getting caught in that cyclone fence that you're removing? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Things that grow right on the fence and weave through the link fence but he cannot view it and everything grows on this side. In other words it weaves through the link fence and -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 303 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: Ail right -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- grows on my side and I have to constantly, all kinds of stuff. CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: you know, poison ivy You remove it. PANAGOPOULOS: I gave you pictures MR. before how it was and I clean - CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we have those. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- it up, but it's torture. I cannot do it no more. I'm not a young person and is a nightmare. Plus the ugliness that exists there and if that is permitted there is going to be a (inaudible) anybody else will be doing just the same and not to mention (inaudible) there not supposed to be any fences whatsoever because what the law I believe requires that it should be equal to everyone, not to make it comfortable for one and very inconvenient for the other. Some handful of people that have money they change the bi-laws and they allowed the fences to be built, but 4-feet only and not 9-feet fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: The fence that is PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 304 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 there right now is 9 feet and don't let anyone kid you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: It was 4 feet and then he brought it up over 9 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, they're now making a new proposal and I'm just now going to ask them if what I just suggested to just once and for all get rid of this conflict between your neighbors if this Board is willing and I would ask to see what the Board is going to do, but if this Board is willing to grant height variances on your side of the property in order to make sure that this is not a burden to the neighbor relative to his property, his view, his having to maintain that fence even though it's on your property, you don't see it, how would you feel about relief that said, all right, we'll grant you some height variances on your property, but that fence has to be screened from his view in a place you can maintain it by moving it to where it's on your side of the evergreen, which you've already planted, letting us know from the applicant's elevation and your PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 305 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 elevation how many panels at what height, you know, this way it's 6-1/2 feet. On your property it's 9 feet or whatever it happens to be all the way from the road to the Sound and then if you so choose to run a row of evergreens on your property, you have plenty of room to make sure you don't see the fence either, that's fine. You know, that's your option. Are you following what I'm saying, counsel? MRS. MOORE: I do. I'm -- I just want to CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does the Board hear what I'm saying? MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you're making a suggestion that will make it more palatable. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, that if they want to move that fence on the other side of the evergreens where the neighbor is not burdened with maintaining it or seeing it, the applicant has it on his property -- he has it on his property now, but would be willing to do that, and would tell us how many panels, you know, how many linear feet you want to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 306 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 have the height and how you're measuring it on your property and what the height would then be on the neighbor's property, then this Board can make a decision. I think that will -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Are we allowing -- suggesting that they can make the height of the fence 6-1/2 feet above the grade from the adjoining property owner's grade, but on their side of the evergreens? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct, but it would be much higher than that on their property. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On their property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, but what I'm saying is that the -- well, they'd have to have it higher. He said he wanted it 7 feet on the applicant's grade; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: From the applicant's side 7 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: it still 11 feet or is it And on your side is lower than that? the MRS. MOORE: Well, it changes based on CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's the highest? MRS. MOORE: The highest is -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 307 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Towards the bluff. MRS. MOORE: -- 11 because it's a 4-foot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying it was originally proposed from your property. MRS. MOORE: The entire length. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And 7 feet from the height of the applicant's, but what I'm saying is that at the very least make it 6-1/2 feet, which would be code conforming on the applicant's property. Okay, that would probably bring it down to property. I'm asking, at near the bluff. MRS. MOORE: It's just the record -- 10-1/2 feet on your the highest point -- just to clarify CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If the -- I would like the applicant to have the option of providing us, based on all we've heard and what we discussed, with an amended survey that is showing what we just asked. Showing these various panels, how many linear feet they are, how much height on your property, how much height on the applicant's property cause the grade changes substantially. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 308 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Let me just -- concerns that I would have if I was him. You've got a retaining wall that's right on the property -- right up to the property line. So you're asking us to put a fence inside our property line inside the evergreens, presumably. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct. MRS. MOORE: That's then can be with -- if we want the fence, that fence would be with a variance for the height that we want. The problem that we have is we will have a no- man's land area from his retaining wall going right to his property line to the fence that we are proposing for our own privacy that is going to be an area that is in a sense where some -- I don't want to say abandoning, but we are losing that area between -- so we're giving him the three or four or five feet that it takes to accomplish that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, not at all. The retaining wall is at the edge of his property. You would have right up against that retaining wall -- MRS. MOORE: A fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. The point Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 309 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 is you have evergreens that are literally growing through that fence right now. MRS. MOORE: Well, no. That needs a clarification. MR. MIHALIOS: May I? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Go ahead. MR. MIHALIOS: My cypress trees are 6 foot on my property. I have 3 feet between and the reason why I cut it because he never let me go on his property to trim it. So I leave room of two and a half feet between the fence and the side of the trees, so I trim it. MR. Pi~NAGOPOULOS: No, that's not so. MR. MIHALIOS: No, it is because -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: It's against the fence, it's against the fence, that's why you asked me to come on my property. (BOTH GENTLEMEN ARE SPEAKING ~2qD ARE INDISCERNIBLE.) MR. MIHALIOS: Don't please. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: interrupt me, Yeah, let him speak and then you'll have your opportunity. MR. MIHALIOS: Because I have a lot of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 310 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 things against you, but this Board doesn't have to listen to those things. The retaining wall, I did insist on it because he raised his house above my property and then on the other side, on the west side, it was draining the whole thing and all the water was coming on my property. So I tell him level off your yard. The only way to level off his yard is build the wall. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand, okay. MR. MIHALIOS: Which he penalize me now because he put the wall -- I'm penalized now cause my fence buried the same height as his wall. I don't think it's fair and the fence is illegal height now, but I'm willing to cut it down to the low, what is it? 6-1/2 feet. It's my neighbor and I have the right to have it 6-1/2 feet high fence. The only thing is, the only consideration is the retaining wall. If I put 6-1/2 feet from my property I'm only 2-feet above his ground. neighborhood can go over, CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: that. A kid from the he can fall over. No, we understand We talked about that the last hearing. MR. MIHALIOS: (Inaudible) to reconsider Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 311 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 it, give me the okay from the high point to put 6-1/2 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why I asked you, it's going to be a lot higher if you measure from the grade of your property to the height that you're proposing, the 6-1/2 feet. MR. MIHALIOS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What I was saying was at the very minimum cut it down so that from the neighbor's property at his grade it's 6-1/2 feet, which is at least conforming on his side. MRS. MOORE: feet? Rather than the 7, 6-1/2 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, he had been willing to do that, not moving the whole fence in -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I brought that up because he raised an issue about its appearance. Now, you have beautiful properties, that whole neighborhood is beautiful. Okay? And everybody there clearly cares very much about their investments and about the aesthetic qualities. You know we were there and I observed, too, that that Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 312 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 section of the fence that's at its highest smacked up against that retaining wall is pretty ugly. I don't believe you want to see it and I don't think he wants to see it. At least what you have now the existing - what you have now that's up there, even though you're going to make it a little shorter, okay, at least it is somewhat camouflaged by the existing cypress, certainly on your property, but it isn't so awfully ugly on his property either. I mean we've been there, we've seen it. Ugly is a personal judgment, okay? MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I'm not going to sit here and hear testimony from anybody about what's ugly and what's not, but we all know that the highest part of that fence is not very attractive. So I'm just asking for a little bit, I realize there's been dissention and difficulty between you. This Board is going to make a decision. We have listened to both of you with equal respect and equal time. We understand what the issues are. You're back here because you agreed to make some PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 313 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 better amended, you know, application that would reduce some of these heights, that would be more conforming. What I would like to have you do is submit to us the survey that shows what those panels are that you're proposing, okay, so that we have a drawing that we can stamp or we can say we want some changes on, if you still want alternative relief. The Board will have to look at it. We saw it visually, okay, but what we don't have is a drawing that actually shows from both sides what variances are going to be. In other words, right, submit another drawing, in the field? MRS. MOORE: Yeah. those height Pat, you did not you just taped it off No, he gave up some of the height that you had request and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct. MRS. MOORE: -- he taped it. So, yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So can you please then summarize what those measurements are on a drawing? We have to stamp a drawing. We can't just go out there and inspect it visually, all right? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 314 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 And I'm suggesting that you reduce that highest series of panels so that it's conforming on the applicant's side and then we'll see what this Board wants to do. Is that a reasonable -- MR. PA. NAGOPOULOS: something? Can I (inaudible) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you'll have an opportunity to speak one more time then -- Ail right, are we clear on this? You would like to say some more? MR. PA. NAGOPOULOS: On the highest part of my retaining wall and I mentioned the first time it's so simple, but the idea behind all this is just to discredit my property, that's what that fence is there for. He discriminates about the deer? Yes and as we said and it's in the books, law is based on the good common sense. Common sense says that if you restrict the deer from one place it's going to make double damage on the other which is mine and it should not be permitted. That's one thing. Secondly, I mentioned the last time that on my highest part, on that retaining wall, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 315 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 maybe the whole length of that wall because of his pool I'll erect a fence an aesthetic fence. I'll put up the fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On your property, of course. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Right. On top of those railroad ties. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What type fence do you propose to put up? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: I'll put a nice vinyl fence, brown. Something that not just a white thing (inaudible), but something that will be low and will be safe so no children can jump, 5 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the problem is -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: From my property which it will be 9 from his property. Why he's rejecting it? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, because first you don't have -- you don't have it up He has no assurance that you will put of all, there. it up. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well make an agreement. I mean that's not so -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 316 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, his pool is protected, his pool is already protected. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: His pool is not protected. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's fenced in. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: No, what -- MRS. MOORE: This is the pool fence, too. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is the pool fence. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: A pool fence between two lots, now we're talking about two lots on the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's too high, but it's a pool -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- house is one lot where the pool is and the vacant lot is another. So what -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He has a right to he has a right to have direct -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: (Inaudible) two separate, different lots. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. He still has a right to do -- to put that fence up to protect the pool. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 317 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Okay, but not 9, 10 feet, 11 feet fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's correct. That's right, it's only -- the maximum -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: There should be -- the fences on his property should be measured 6- 1/2 feet and not an inch more from his property. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that's what's before us. We're asking them to -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well, they're giving miscalculated numbers and they misleading you that that's not so. Where they put those ribbons, that's Mickey Mouse. It's more than 7 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, they're going to have to give us a proposal on a survey with exact measurements and then, if we accept those measurements, they will have to -- then you know it's an enforcement issue. That is what he will have to comply with. MR. MIHALIOS: Right. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: But what's so difficult if I put up a fence for safety situation along the railroad ties and then PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 318 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 he'll take the rest of the fence, which is minimum for him to see from the inside and take that fence and put it on the other side and grow some evergreens, is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: whatever? The idea I'm not suggesting we're going to grant this variance either. I don't know, the Board, Mr. Dinizio has been assigned this. We're going to have to write a draft, we're going to have to -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: DEC or DEP don't have any jurisdiction 100 from the bluff? The whole fence is right all along the bluff, down the bluff and everything is restricted there. I mean what if I do the same and everybody else? Before we know it it's just Bronx Zoo over here. We come over here not to restrict the animals or the deer because if we don't like it we go elsewhere, we don't have to come here. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, this is also a rear yard in addition to being a bluff a fence is not really treated quite in the same way as a structure. So -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well, it's down the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 319 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 bluff -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We observed that, yes, but you have -- you can't put a fence up on your property to protect his pool. He, by the law, has to do that. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Okay, fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whether or not we grant him a variance in height is another story, but he has to do it. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Okay, fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He can do it close to his pool. He can do it on his property line. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: If he wants to keep the same fence, link fence, there's nothing I can do, that's his choice, but it has to be 6- 1/2 feet and not higher. First of all, he has to have the proper permits in order for him to have that fence 100 feet from the bluff and the rest I have to deal with it, but again, as we said, we cannot just discriminate because of the deer and because if Mr. Mihalios does that, I should do the same and anybody else and that's not proper and I believe that is going to ruin the aesthetics and nature of PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 320 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 this -- of the north fork. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I think -- MRS. MOORE: I don't want to belabor this, I just want to make sure that the way that I'm suggesting he do it on this plan will satisfy you, the Board. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what we really want to do is just see what your proposed amendment is, that's it. MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's what we're -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: we're going to do with it, MRS. MOORE: No, no. Not prejudging what but -- I understand, but what I am suggesting that we do is this is Mihalios side, this is neighbor's side, we'll give you the measurement from the neighbor for the panel and the measurement on the Mihalios grade. So you'll have what is the measurement of the height that we're proposing from the Mihalios side and how it translates on the neighbor's side. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm, yup. Yeah, how many panels are of whatever from the road to the bluff. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, this is from the road. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 321 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: need that measurement. MRS. MOORE: Okay, so CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: way we're -- Um-hmm, so we just that's -- Yeah, that's the MRS. MOORE: -- does that make sense? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- going to have specifics so we know what we're voting on. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: But you have to understand 6-1/2 feet from his property, so this way we don't go back and forth, we waste their time, taxpayers' money and everything else. 6-1/2 feet from the property where the fence is laying situated, not from my property. MRS. MOORE: Sir, the -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: No, let's make it clear now so we don't go back and forth. We did the same thing the last time because I see where you're going to. You're going to end up bringing back next time 6-1/2 feet from my property, from the top of the railroad ties. MRS. MOORE: We already made a variance PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 322 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 application to the Board. The Board is going to -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: You cannot ask for a variance to ask for a height from my side of the property. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: No, no, he's not. MRS. MOORE: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's not. MRS. MOORE: We're not. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: This is what she's driving at, I can see it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMJLN: No. What I -- what I requested was I want to see what the visual impact of their proposal is on your property. That's the only reason I care about how high it's going to look from where you are. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: There is an impact and we know that, it looks -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's still -- now they're asking for height on their property, which is the only thing they can do. MRS. MOORE: Right. The variance is from our side. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: If the fence was yours, we Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 323 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 wouldn't need a variance. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: But it's not mine, no. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. So we have to ask for the variance. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Yes. MRS. MOORE: That's why we're giving it to the Board with the measurements from both sides, so from our side it's a variance -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well, you cannot restrict, as we said, you have to keep -- as a consideration you cannot restrict the deer with your kind of measurements because then it's not equal to me and anybody else. It protects you but destroys me and that's not equal, so therefore it should not be granted. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, we hear you. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, anyway -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think what we need to do is -- MR. MIHALIOS: (Inaudible) Mr. Panagopoulos, (inaudible) build the house you should see (inaudible) -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we're not going PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 324 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MRS. MOORE: No, no. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: to go back and -- MR. MIHALIOS: Just No, we're not going talking about take a look at what he has done to aesthetics CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Look, we've been there and -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Let's not go into it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we're not going to go into it. We have heard this and -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: No. I removed blocks of concrete from his (inaudible) down to the (inaudible) scaffolding he had buried into my property and I'm not saying a thing. He wanted to buy me out. He want to destroy me and they did in a way, they made me divorce, lose my family because of this man, but is not the end of it. Is not only here, I'm not going to leave this fence on 6-1/2 feet, it's going to go down to 4 feet what top of this says. I'm going to fight him to the end. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 325 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Thank you, so much. I'm sorry. MEMBER DINIZIO: I know. I know, but the fence, the height of the fence -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- is for what reason to you? MRS. MOORE: Why do we need the height? MEMBER DINIZI0: Why do you want it so -- why do you need to have it so high -- why do you need to have it 6-1/2 feet measured from his side? MRS. MOORE: We said that at the last hearing -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I know, but I'm thinking, I'm hearing deer fencing. MRS. MOORE: Well, initially the hope was to stop the deer from coming through and that would have been the 7-foot deer fencing, but because they're coming from his side of the property the 7 feet -- stopping the deer -- it really was important to stop them from coming from that direction. MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't worry about what PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 326 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 I'm not a deer director. MRS. MOORE: I understand that. MEMBER DINIZIO: What I'm interested in is the 6-1/2 feet which any person is entitled to -- MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- okay, on their property, which you don't need a variance for. You're measuring from a piece of property that does not belong to you, right? MRS. MOORE: All right, so we are also trying to protect from his side -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on. Hold on. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: 6-1/2 feet is what the Town has agreed upon. MRS. MOORE: Yes, but usually you're comparing grade to grade. MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on, no grade, honestly, is ever flat, okay. No grade is ever flat and I mean we here on Long Island are really fortunate because I mean if you take a ride off any bridge and go 20 miles past here there's not a house that is not on top of one or the other on either side, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 327 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 everything is built on a hill. You know I understand that this is a little abnormal here and people don't understand that, but quite honestly that's the way it is. MRS. MOORE: But it wasn't -- it was not always that way. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I -- MRS. MOORE: It was changed because Mr. Mihalios has had a fence there forever, since his house was built and the pool was built there was a fence there. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, there had to be. MRS. MOORE: There had to be. When the I'm sorry, I can't pronounce your name so I -- when -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't worry about -- MRS. MOORE: Okay, when he changed the grade and put up the retaining wall, now the fence we had was inadequate. It was inadequate because UNIDENTIFIED: audience). MRS. MOORE: ((Inaudible, speaking in Okay, it doesn't matter. here MEMBER DINIZIO: What I'm just getting at is what I would like to see, quite Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 328 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 honestly, is the top of that retaining wall, 4 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Above it. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's it. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: That's how it should be. That I would agree to, I will put a fence MRS. MOORE: Well, here it is. We're going to submit to you the 6-1/2, which is his preference. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: You as a Board will deliberate and decide what we should get and then we will deal with whatever it is the decision is, understanding fairness on both sides. If he had his own fence things would be different. We would not be able to -- we would not be able to rely on his fence for the security of our pool. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, you couldn't. MRS. MOORE: But at least there would be privacy and protection and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you could, however, fence that pool close to the pool, as many people do, you don't have to -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 329 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: I understand that possibility. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just a minute. You've made a decision, you've decided what you want to do. That doesn't mean that you don't have alternatives. If what you're talking about is protecting the pool that is required by Code, options. MRS. MOORE: not the only one. there are a number of other No, no, no, but the pool is You have -- when you have a 4-foot differential, a 6-foot fence, you have 2-foot difference. Anybody, any child, any nuisance, children will trespass, animals will trespass and they will come over a 2-foot -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have -- MRS. MOORE: You're talking about a 2- foot -- MEMBER DINIZIO: 4-feet will be enough. MRS. MOORE: -- differential. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Look, look. Boy do I understand this issue and I'll tell you why, because my neighbor did exactly to me what happened to you. I have a neighbor with a wooded property that was very, very low. The Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 330 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 bottom line is it's now very, very high and they built a very high house on it and they, in order to contain the change in grade, they had to put in a retaining wall because they couldn't possibly contain the slope. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Railroad ties. I had, in anticipation of construction going on, put in a fence, a conforming fence with panels that sloped down to keep it -- we would -- the property goes like this. Their house is here, I have a 6-1/2 foot high, they have a 4-year- old child who stands in their driveway and my fence, which is on my side at 6-1/2 feet high, is 2-feet high for this kid. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But there was nothing I could legally do about it. MRS. MOORE: Unless you came in for a variance. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But I grounds for -- MRS. MOORE: We do have care of it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: had no a way of taking -- a variance. I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 331 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 had no basis in law for a height variance. MRS. MOORE: Legally you have a safety issue. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't have a swimming pool. MEMBER DINIZIO: If you had a pool you would. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If I had a swimming pool. MRS. MOORE: But you also have a safety issue with a child that has only 2-foot on their property. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's their problem not hers. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is not my problem and it's not my burden to bear. MR. MIHALIOS: But it was never a problem MRS. MOORE: Well, if he falls you'll be sued. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From their property? No. They created the grade, it's their railroad ties. MRS. MOORE: Personal injury case. MEMBER DINIZIO: In any case, listen -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 332 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm saying this is not the only time in this town where these kinds of things happen where one neighbor does one thing and another neighbor builds something else and -- MRS. MOORE: And it changes the circumstances, absolutely. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: circumstances. -- it changes the MR. PANAGOPOULOS: That's not so in this case. I was forced with the Department of Buildings, Mr. (Inaudible) came and gave me -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- handed me the violation after many (inaudible) in the Department of Buildings. They wanted to settle this case once and for all and they hand me the violation and I had to do it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so what you are arguing is that his problem was self- created. MR. MIHALIOS: But look at this carefully. His house is built up, grow up and he's pitching 80 feet of water towards me by Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 333 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 5:00. (Inaudible). It's MRS. MOORE: It's 5:00. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, hold on one second. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to get to one thing cause I'm going to write this decision and I'm going to tell you what I'm looking at. I'm looking at 4 feet above, in other words 4 feet measuring from his property. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's in contention and that fence is not going to be chain link. MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry? MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not going to be chainlink, it's going to be something more aesthetically pleasing than that. MRS. MOORE: You tell us what. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just letting you know that because I mean people are -- I can understand, you know, granting a variance in this case and I do understand that, but I also PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 334 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 understand that if we're going to grant a variance of a fence that high, people -- other people will see that. Other people will see that and I'm sure other people have the same circumstances. If they do, I want to make sure that that fence, which affects the neighbor, naturally, just aesthetically, is pleasing in some manner because his side is going to be 10 feet 7 feet probably if it's 4-foot. feet high -- MRS. MOORE: On our side. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: But on his 1/2 feet -- MEMBER DINIZIO: feet from the top of ties -- MRS. that thing on or whatever -- Right, it's 4 side it'll be 6- Not 6-1/2, it'll be 4 that -- those railroad MOORE: He doesn't see the portion that's on our side cause -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No, he doesn't, no. I agree with you, but guess what, the Town -- we're granting that variance and you need it, it's going be a pretty doggone looking fence. That's all I can say. Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 335 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MR. P~AGOPOULOS: privacy, but they have (inaudible) feet high, You're talking about those line of cypress they have -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't worry about that. We're not worrying about that. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- so much privacy. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute, this is not so much about privacy. This is about securing -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: That's what they're saying -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is about securing the boundaries of the property. Otherwise you do not need -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm securing the pool. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- fencing all along the bluff. This is about securing the boundaries of the property, all right, let's be very clear that this variance, the height variance is a consequence of that. All right, whether or not this Board is inclined to grant it because it's a substantial variance, a very substantial variance, and we've attempted to work with both of you in a fair way, to listen to all of you. We have all the information me Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 336 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 need. You know, it's unbelievable how much testimony we have to take over a fence and the next case is going to show even more for a hearing. MRS. MOORE: Oh yes. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: On a fence. Okay, now this Board does not need to hear any more about these fences to make a decision. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so I'm actually going to close this hearing, subject to receipt of the survey -- MRS. MOORE: Not survey. It's not a survey, I want to be accurate in the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's an elevation. MRS. MOORE: Elevation, yes. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Subject to receipt of a plan from the applicant showing the height -- the number of panels and the number of lineal feet, the proposed height from the road to the bluff along that adjoining property line, what you are proposing. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You've heard what PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTran$¢riptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 337 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 we are suggesting, you talk to your client and work out what you want us to look at, and then we will make our decision. We understand the issues, we know what the Code allows and we know what you're asking, and I think we're pretty clear why you're asking it. So we will simply deliberate and the earliest we will be able to deliberate will be at the next special meeting -- BOARD SECRETARY: July 13. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you're welcome to be there. Not that's on July -- MRS. MOORE: that drawing so I to testify, but to listen, the 13tn 6:00. Well, you're going to need don't want to give them -- I'm assuming -- how quickly can you -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How much time do you need? MRS. MOORE: Okay, by the end of July we'll give you a map. family to do this. MEMBER DINIZIO: half. will He has to rely on About a month and a CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, then we not be deliberating on this. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 338 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Yes, you probably won't. MEMBER DINIZIO: Next session. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The next probable deliberation, we have 62 days -- MRS. MOORE: All right, well 62 days from the receipt of the plan seems to me the way the law would impose -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can start the clock then, when we receive the plans. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, cause I don't know how -- I mean it might be ready in a week, it might be ready in three weeks. So I don't want to give anybody unreasonable expectations. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine, but I don't want to delay this indefinitely either and so let us do this, let's say subject to receipt by the end of July, by July 31st, that's the really end of July. Okay. MR. MIHALIOS: Madame Chairman, I have a question. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MR. MIHALIOS: The gentleman, he made up his mind already, he says -- suggests 4 feet over the railroad ties. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 339 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He -- what -- no. MR. MIHALIOS: He says, he's going to write it (inaudible). MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm telling you the way I'm thinking I'm writing this decision, okay - MRS. MOORE: But he has to convince the rest of the Board. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The way he writes it is not necessarily the final decision. Every one of us is assigned to various drafts, to write them. They belong to the entire Board. We are, you know, five votes. Okay, so if somebody doesn't like a draft, they can propose changes to that draft and we vote, and if we have three out of the five votes that say yes, then it passes. MEMBER DINIZIO: And my saying that was in deference to you so to let you know, okay, after hearing what I've heard for the past four meetings, okay, okay. MR. MIHALIOS: MEMBER DINIZIO: what I've determined, (Inaudible) -- No, cause we're pretty Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 340 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 much done with the testimony. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're done. MEMBER DINIZIO: So -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why don't you wait until after we close the hearing? MEMBER DINIZIO: We didn't close the hearing? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I'm closing this subject to receipt of height amended relief -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I really don't want to stop him, Mr. Mihalios wants to say something. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- height by July 31st, okay. We're all clear on this. MRS. MOORE: Okay, Vicki will send me a reminder when I -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You just remember. Okay, I made a motion to close this hearing subject to receipt of the information from the applicant. MEMBER DINIZIO: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 341 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 HEARING #6318 - Marc and Deirdre Sokol (Adjourned from PH 2/25/10.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: This is a carryover. MRS. MOORE: I actually don't know why we have this particular hearing continued. Was there a reason? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This hearing was continued to receive final information about where the property, you know, staking it which you just did, where you're going to propose moving the fence to. MRS. MOORE: Oh, that I gave you back in April. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And why was it that we did a carryover; I have to go look in my notes. MRS. MOORE: Oh, because -- yeah, the Town Board was going to review what the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Was looking at the possibility of -- at the moment, it's very clear that the Town Board has done nothing with this and probably won't -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 342 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Well, but even if they do, it didn't -- it was not going to satisfy this condition cause we have two road frontages. So that's why -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Vicki's saying that I did not formally open this for the record. Now Jerry is here so we are now about to look at the Marc and Deidre Sokol application #6318, which is a carryover, so no legal notice needs to be read and the reason it was adjourned was because the Town Board was potentially going to look at deer fencing. It was given to Code Committee, there was one brief discussion. The Town Board, if it chooses to act, will do so over a period of time. That clearly will not be timely. They did not take any action. MRS. MOORE: But I'm sorry I didn't get the Code Committee, but I thought the Building Department was going to take the position that if it met certain criteria that a homeowner could do it as of right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I can explain. I've been working on this personally and it's Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 343 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 scheduled either tomorrow or next Thursday, it's back on for Code Committee. I was given the task of going to local fencing vendors, getting specs and samples of deer fencing that would be appropriate, but the consideration and I don't think it would suit your clients' needs, Pat. MRS. MOORE: No, it doesn't apply here. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It may on the side yard. MRS. MOORE: Yes. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: considering allowing 8 They were feet on the side yard - CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And rear yard. -- and rear, but not in the front, so you'd still need variances and we're still probably -- I would say if they were to put it on for the next Town Board meeting for notice, we're at least 30 days, 60 days away from getting legislation. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Before we even have -- we'd like to have a public hearing. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 344 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And it doesn't mean (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: No. That's why I sent the letter requesting we get back on the calendar because -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right, which is why we're -- yeah. MRS. MOORE: -- it didn't make sense. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Exactly. Now, we're on the same page. So now what we're doing is really looking at the height variances for the two side yards and for the two front yards. I want to state that there is no rear yard on this property. MRS. MOORE: No. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, the Notice of Disapproval says something different. Okay, read the Notice of Disapproval. It says, side yard and rear yard. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It says -- no, it says it cannot exceed 4 feet in height when located inside a rear yard shall not exceed 6- 1/2 feet; however, it doesn't mean there's rear yard on this property. It's quote, unquote, there's no rear yard. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 345 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I understand, but I really don't think that to be -- unless you're on a corner lot, so are we saying that both of these are side yards then -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Even the back of the house is a side yard? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, it is. MRS. MOORE: Well, yes because -- well, actually, yes because you have two front yards and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Two front yards and they have two side yards. MRS. MOORE: And I guess the water side is the back yard, but we have regulatory restrictions on wetland side. So we really don't have a rear yard in this instance. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Are we saying that the waterside is the rear yard, though? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No. MRS. MOORE: No. I don't -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Nonetheless CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: a side yard. Where the water is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 346 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 is the side yard. MEMBER DINIZIO: I know. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. They have two sides yards and they have two -- and they have two front yards. So I don't, you know, I think we've heard everything we need to hear, this is just a pro forma reopening so that then we can deliberate. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- on, you know, everything we've heard so far. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The staking has been done. I have not been down there. It has been done. MRS. MOORE: It was done Monday and I confirmed actually the email that I sent yesterday -- I called this morning to verify Nate's office and they (inaudible) and -- I would suggest you go earlier than later because stakes can be popped up. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I'll go earlier. I'll go either tomorrow or Friday. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so there are no questions from the Board and there's nobody there left to testify; so I'm going to close PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 347 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 this hearing, reserve decision. Is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 348 ZBA Town of Southold - June 30, 2010 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was prepared using required electronic transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the Hearings. Signature ~ _~: Denise Gasowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: July 4, 2010 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355