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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
May 20, 2010
10:11 a.m.
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN -
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER -
Chairperson/Member
Member
JA/~ES DINIZIO, JR. Meraber
GEORGE HORNING - Member - recused himself from
hearing at 2:35-2:39 - start to 3:15 p.m.
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
VICKI TOTH - Secretary
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O IGi AL
RECEWED
BOARD OF APPEALS
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Hearing:
James G.
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Anderson and Rosemary Ellis #6374
Page:
3-19
Christa Hildebrand and Jeff W. Abrams #6373 20-44
Toni M. Fine and Barbara J. Cohen #6376 45-58
Allison Tupper #6377 59-62
Unexcelled LLC #6369 63-80
Anthony Bonagura #6378 81-126
Meskouris (P.MoV. Family LLC) #6372 127-144
H. Traendly and B. Cadwallader #6264 145-188
Gwyneth M. Ketterer and Mary B.
CMEEC/F I Electric Corp. #6375
Jay Mandelbaum #6359
Linda Hill #6364
Sykes #6349 189-214
215-217
218-252
253-258
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6374 James G. Anderson
and Rosemary Ellis
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for a Variance from Code Section
280-116B, based on an application for building
permit for addition and alterations, and the
Building Inspector's February 3, 2010 Notice
of Disapproval concerning addition and
alterations to existing dwelling, at less than
the code required setback from bulkhead of 75
feet; at 2875 Bay Shore Rd.,
Island Sound) Greenport, NY.
yOU,
(adj. to Shelter
SCTM#1000-53-6-
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, and would
please, state your name and spell it?
Speak into the microphone for me, please.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Good morning. My name
is Frank Uellendahl, U-E-L-L-E-N-D-A-H-L.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you move that
up a little bit more towards you? Yeah,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
pretend you're a rock star.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Okay, I'm an architect
and I'm here to present this application. The
owners bought this house recently and they
love it particularly the view, but the house
needs (inaudible) major work (inaudible) put
in new windows (inaudible) so obviously there
is this major (inaudible) with the alterations
and (inaudible). The entire structure lies
within -- it's situated within the 75-foot
setback line and there will be alterations to
the floor plan.
It is now a four-bedroom house with 1-1/2
baths. We're going to turn this into a three-
bedroom house with 2-1/2 baths. So the second
floor, which has four bedrooms, will
eventually have two bedrooms. The existing
garage will be turned into habitable living
area, a den. I don't now what the situation
is as far as the foundation is concerned. I'm
prepared to take the existing foundation out
and redo it because we're also extending this
and the one-story structure 3-1/2 feet
landward and there will be a second floor
addition on top if it. The new garage will
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
then be added landward of the two-story
structure. (Inaudible) to Bay Shore Road not
more than 12 feet. They really want to use
this to house their boat and it's not going to
encroach into the open spaces to the south or
to the north.
Then, basically in front of the --
seaward of the structures, there is a one-
story covered entry way, which we're going to
be taking the roof off. We're going to have a
balcony up on the second floor and we're going
to widen the (inaudible) stone as to
(inaudible) a deck.
That's basically the scope of work that
we're planning, proposing to do. I believe if
you look at immediate neighborhood most of the
lots are 50 feet wide and have a (inaudible)
and are way over 20 percent coverage and, in
this case, we have a 100-foot-wide lot that's
about 50,000 square feet and the coverage will
stay under 12 percent. So this (inaudible)
going to allow the (inaudible) for all
residents who live in this area and also for
this family as well.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Can I ask a question?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
How big is the balcony that you're
anticipating above the stoop?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Well, I don't want to
make this a balcony where people will be
sitting on. It's just I want the master
bedroom suite that is now located on the
second floor to have doors so it's all about
use. So I think the balcony will not be
deeper than 42 inches, 3 feet, maximum 4 feet.
I think this is what I put into my drawings
and the numbers of 31.2 feet from the bulkhead
to the balcony. So it's going to be very
shallow.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and you're
actually creating a setback that is about
three and a half foot more landward than the
current setback as defined by the existing
roof that you're going to be removing; is that
correct?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Correct. As a matter of
fact, yes. We're going to actually have less
of a -- more of a setback in the end cause
we're removing the roof, which is the yellow
area on the site plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You just mentioned,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
this is for additions and alterations as it's
in the Notice of Disapproval, and you
mentioned that you're not absolutely certain
about the situation with the foundation?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Well, I -- based on what
I see when I do constructions and additions.
This is a garage. The main house has a full
basement all brick, very scary. I assume we
have a 3- to 6-inch foundation under the
garage. If that is the case, then of course
we will be using it. If that's not the case,
which a lot of times it isn't, then --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You'll need a new
one. But you're talking about for the garage
portion. The house itself as --
MR. UELLENDAHL: The house itself is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That foundation is
okay?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Correct. Nothing will
be added or done to the existing garage, only
the area which is the green areas (inaudible)
addition (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Frank, how old would
you say this house is?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Well, it's -- we were
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
trying to figure out exactly. We talked to
neighbors, it's gotta be close to maybe 90, 85
years old. It's probably one of the first
structures that was built in this neighborhood
and actually it has a brick face, which is in
pretty bad shape. The lentils are eroded, but
it has a very sturdy wood-frame construction.
It's actually a wood frame house. The brick
is just a face.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. UELLENDAHL: And it would be too
expensive to redo the bricks. It's not going
to remain a brick house. It's going to clad
with probably cedar shingles.
MEMBER HORNING:
the brick?
MR. UELLENDAHL:
You're going to remove
Yes. We will have to
remove it because we also are putting in new
windows. The window openings are going to be
different from what the house shows right now.
So it just doesn't make sense to keep the
brick.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, I was looking at
the two different site plans. One is the
Corwin survey showing a 40-foot setback to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
corner of the building and the other one here,
the Anderson/Ellis residence one -- I'm not
sure who made it -- showing a 35.2-foot
setback to the corner. Could you explain
that?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Yes, if you look at my
site plan, which shows 35.2, that actually
goes to the bulkhead. If you look at he
surveyor's survey, the Corwin survey, it goes
to the tide line.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. UELLENDAHL: So I
the scale,
Cad on computer, so I
the same distance.
MEMBER HORNING:
Great.
-- if you measure
I did it with of course with Auto
came up with 35.2, it's
Understood. Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just had a question
about the brick, which the representative
The bricks will be removed,
The interior framing is 2
answered already.
the siding bricks.
by 4 or --
MR. UELLENDAHL: Yes, 2 by 4. It's
actually 2 X 4, so it's not the modern 1-1/2
by 3-1/2-inch stud.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. UELLENDAHL: And it is 16 inches on
center. I opened up the sheet rock on the
inside in various places and in some places
there was not even insulation and so we will
have to reinsulate and reclad the structure.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So you're confident
that the house sort of had what I would call
good bones?
MR. UELLENDAHL: Yes. Very good bones.
I mean, the roof leaks in certain areas there
has been damage over the years cause the water
just drips down, but that's just another--
we're doing the roof as well. So I feel
confident that this will all come to, you
know, it's going to be a beautiful project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISNLAN: So the bearing --
MR. UELLENDAHL: And they do not want to
take down the house because then they will
have to move it back 75 feet and it would be
probably 75 feet wide. This is not what the
neighborhood really wants. So they, of
course, they like the closeness to the water
as is.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. So you're
confident in the structural integrity of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
existing home.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Yes, very much so.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But the question is
possibly with the garage foundation might have
to be redone.
MR. UELLENDAHL:
not very good shape.
Yeah, the garage is in
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's pretty standard.
MR. UELLENDAHL: I mean this structure I
can (inaudible), but I would like to save the
foundation if it's to Code.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right. You testified
to that. Thank you.
I have no further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: When I first looked at
this, your site plan, my assumption was that
we're only in here for the stoop because the
rest of it is landward of the bulkhead.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I don't think we're
discussing the garage, the new garage, the
second story. We're just looking to give you,
I don't know -- what's it look like, a few
inches, a few feet? I don't know what exactly
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
UELLENDAHL: I don't think I'm going
MR. UELLENDAHL:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
steps.
MR. UELLENDAHL:
widening the steps.
Yes.
And you're going to put
Yes. Well, we're
If you look at the -- I
added some plans, you'll see the existing and
then you'll see the proposed. It's going to
be a little wider cause we're going to have a
nice French door unit
that's why I have --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
in the living room and
And above that you're
going to put flat roof above the stoop and
MR. UELLENDAHL: Well, basically the
balcony and --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. UELLENDAHL:
of a cover above this. You know, again,
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Yeah. Yeah.
-- it'll be a little bit
it's
MR.
to encroach with the stoop.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Any more, right, cause
the yellow mark --
MR. UELLENDAHL: The yellow part is the
roof.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- is the roof now that
exists there and that's coming off.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
all about the views. So there will be a
little bit of construction seaward of the
structure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. I mean that's
the nature of our -- of your application not
the garage. Not the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but they will
attach, Jimmy, that's the problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now -- yeah, but see
he's entitled to do anything he wants landward
of that house.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know.
MR. UELLENDAHL: The second floor
addition falls into the 75 --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, the second floor
does. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the other setbacks, other than bulkhead, are
conforming as proposed.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is the
primary.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
your particular opinion,
The point is all of
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Last statement. In
does the stoop exceed
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
30 square
it's with,
aspect for that also.
MR. UELLENDA-HL: What is
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 30
feet because if that's the case then
you know, you're needing a variance
the -- 30?
square.
MR. UELLENDAHL: 30 square feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It looks bigger than
that to me, Frank.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. Jerry, but that's
not the -- I mean he's -- that's why he was
denied. So regardless of how big the stoop
is, he's not contesting that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know, but I need --
what we really should be looking at is the
setback from the stoop, then if its -- if the
stoop is bigger than 30 square feet -- I'm
trying to include this so he never comes back
before us and that's the point.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. UELLENDA}{L: Yes. Jerry, I --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You don't have to
give it to us now, Frank.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Yeah, it's slightly more
than 30.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. UELLENDAHL: It's 16 by 4, so we're
looking at --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's bigger.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Well, the
reason why I asked that question is because if
we grant this at 31.2, okay, and the stoop
exceeds 30 square feet, there's a great
possibility they could send you back.
MR. UELLENDA~L: The 31.2 does not refer
to the stoop.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know it doesn't,
but that's the reason why I'm raising the
issue. Okay, not -- I'm not trying -- this is
not an adverse issue. This is an agreement.
MR. UELLENDAHL: You're helping.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm trying to help
you, at this point, okay, that's the only
reason why I'm raising the issue. So if you
think that it's closer than that, based upon
the stoop, then maybe we should deal with
another -- I mean that affects the Notice of
Disapproval, unfortunately, but I mean that's
what my concern is. Am I correct on this?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's a
nonconforming setback and he's not encroaching
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
any further than what
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's
it.
the existing stoop is.
just widening
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's a kind of
as-built conditions and I guess all we really
need to know is what the setback from the
stoop is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Good point.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to maintain the existing
stoop.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
it's not called out here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM31N:
us dimensions for that.
So he's proposing
setback from the
Yeah, but it's not --
That's not --
It's widened, but -
That's the problem.
If you -- you gave
MR. UELLENDA}tL: Well, can I draw this
(inaudible) and resubmit the site plan?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What you could do is
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
call it out or at least make sure that the
Building Department is aware of the fact that
the stoop may encroach within the setback
issue so that we know what the figure is so
that when we deal with it we can include that
within the decision so you don't have to come
back on this.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Right.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't actually
have to redo the site plan. All you have to
do is give us a letter indicating the square
footage of the stoop and the setback from the
bulkhead of the stoop.
MR. UELLENDA~L: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. UELLENDAHL: My intention is not to
encroach. I mean there is no dimension from
the current stoop on the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The stoop, right.
MR. UELLENDAHL: I can give you that and
I can then write a note that we're not
increasing or decreasing the setback from the
new proposed stoop to the bulkhead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. UELLENDAHL: So we're not coming out
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're not coming out
any farther, but you're making it bigger than
what is on there.
MEMBER HORNING: Which is increasing the
nonconformity.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The nonconformity.
Okay, that's all I'm concerned about. Again,
this is -- this is a pragmatic issue.
MR. UELLENI)A~L: Yes. I understand.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, no more de
minimis. I'm sick of that word.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, it's good.
MR. UELLENDAHL: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you're going to
submit dimensions to stoop and bulkhead.
Okay, is there anyone else in the
audience that would like to speak to the
nature of this application?
Any other questions from the Board?
Okay, hearing none, I make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision,
subject to receipt of information regarding
the setback from the stoop and the bulkhead
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
as-built and as proposed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6373 - Christa Hildebrand
and Jeff william Abrams
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-15, based on an application for building
permit for "as-built" addition to accessory
garage, and the Building Inspector's April 16,
2009, updated September 9, 2009 and January
11, 2010 Notice of Disapproval concerning ~as-
built" addition to accessory garage, 1) less
than the code required side yard setback of 15
feet, 2) square footage exceeding the code
required 750 square feet; at 425 stillwater
Ave., Cutchogue, N Y. SCTM#1000-103-1-10.
Zone: R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please state your
name and spell it for the record.
MR. ABRAMS: Jeff AJ~rams, A-B-R-A-M-S.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: Thank you, Mr.
~_brams. What would you like to tell us?
MR. ABR~34S: First of all, I do have
another card and that I received in the mail
and this came back.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ABR~34S: Basically, this is an
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
extension to the garage for storage purposes.
It is setback, at the time, I thought the Code
when we built the garage was 10 feet and I
thought that was, you know, still the Code and
I was wrong and that's basically it. It's an
extension of the garage, there's a common
wall. One common wall with the garage and it
can't be seen from the street. That's it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you built the
extension?
MR. ABRAMS: I didn't physically build
it. I was kind of the contracting agent. The
people who built it are the workers who built
the garage, which was built by Doug Ferris
Construction, and I hired them independently
of him. So they basically did the same job.
They did all the Code stuff, everything. I
just organized, you know, who comes in first,
second.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
stuff?
What do you mean by Code
MR. ABRAMS: Well, you know, you have the
strapping wires have to go to this and that.
I'm not familiar with that, I'm from
Manhattan. So it's a whole different Code
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
structure. So I knew that I'd have to hire
somebody. So I hired them independently.
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, did you have
a building permit?
MR. ABRAMS: Not for this, no.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MR. ABRAMS: I wasn't sure what size I
wanted. I was going to get the permit
afterwards.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh.
MR. ABRAMS: As a matter of fact --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What do you mean by
that?
MR. ABRAMS: Well, during the pour I
changed -- I changed the dimensions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. ABRAMS: I
out, I wasn't sure.
Uh-huh.
just needed to feel it
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so it wasn't built
with a permit so you probably didn't any idea
of the Code.
MR. ABRAMS:
I needed to have
No, the Code -- I knew that
somebody who knew the Code.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm talking about
the Zoning Code. So now --
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MR. ABRAMS: The Zoning Codes,
it was the same as for the garage,
know they changed.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
have some notes here.
I thought
I didn't
And, let me just see, I
So it's going to exceed
the square footage by about 18 percent and it
exceeds the side yard setback by 50 percent.
Right, it's supposed to be 15 and you got it
at 10.
MR. ABRAMS:
have it.
Well, I have -- it's 11.5 I
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, you're aware that
if you hadn't built that, attached that
building to that garage, you wouldn't be
before us?
MR. ABRAMS: That's probably true, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So attaching it is what
brought you before us. If you had moved -- if
you took that thing and moved it five feet
away from that building, you could have it.
You probably could have another one the same
way until you filled up your yard with --
MR. ABRAMS: Well, that's true, but I
wanted the decking to be as I have the decking
to the garage.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MR. ABRAMS: I wanted it to continue on.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I saw that, it looks
nice. I'm not objecting to that, I'm just
pointing out to you that there's some
absurdity here that because you attached it,
you know, if you build the same size building
five feet away, you wouldn't be before us. So
it's one way or the other.
Now, I'm going to ask you this question,
I hope that you don't take it the wrong way,
but what would be -- cause I have to write
this decision, okay, and to my mind it exceeds
the Code quite a lot. Okay, it needs -- it's
a fairly new Code that we have and, you know,
I'd prefer not to keep stretching that. Now,
what would it cost for you to take that
building and move it five feet from the rear?
From the rear of the garage in other words,
put the other wall up, extend the pour another
five feet; what would it cost you to do that?
MR. ABRAMS: You're talking about 5 feet
away from the garage?
MEMBER DINIZIO: From the building, make
it in conforming is what I'm talking about.
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MR. ABRAMS: I'm confused, excuse me.
You're talking about from the lot line?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. I'm just saying
from -- in other words,
buildings by five feet.
MR. ABR3kMS: Move
that building?
separate the two
it five feet away from
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. What would it cost
you? I'm not asking you to do that, but I
need to know your hardship. I need to know,
you know, why we should grant this because
it's such a hardship to you. I mean, I
understand it exists now, you've built it, you
went through all that, okay, the Town's point
of view is, well, if you'd come and asked us
we would have told you that you couldn't do
that unless you had a variance, okay, so we're
at that point right now.
MR. ABR3~MS: Yes, I
MEMBER DINIZIO: So,
see that.
I mean, I'm looking
for a way to either justify granting this or
justify not granting this and it's would be a
help to me if I had a price, an amount of
money that it would cost you to, you know,
extend that monolithic pour and move that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
building another five feet away from the
building, separate those two buildings, it
would make it conforming, which is what we're
supposed to -- which is our charge right now.
MR. ABRAMS: Okay. I would have to build
-- so you're talking about building a wall
five feet away from the back of the garage and
then extending the monolithic pour and
creating a new five foot extension --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MR. ABRAMS: -- on the other side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm saying separate
the two buildings.
MR. ABRAMS: Yeah, I understand separate
them, but I want to still have the same square
footage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You would.
MR. ABRAMS: So I have to make a
monolithic pour on the other side.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
not a builder, okay,
cost a lot of money.
Well, you
and -- but
-- listen I'm
I'm sure that
MR. ABRAMS: Well, there's also a problem
of the electricity. Ail the electricity comes
from the garage, so I'd have to somewhere go
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
underground --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You would, yes.
Yeah, you would. You'd have to get an
electrician to tell you how much that would
cost you.
MR. ABRAMS:
expensive.
Yeah,
that would be
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll tell you, honestly,
I want to know how expensive. I want to be
able to put that in the decision and say it's
going to be expensive to do these things, if
that indeed is the case.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Surely, Jim, he would
have to find that out from a contractor, so he
would --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly, yes.
MR. ABRAMS: No, I couldn't figure that
out by myself.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm -- and I'm
asking you to submit that information to us --
MR. ABRAMS: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just so that I could,
you know, write a decision based on some
facts. I mean you don't know how much it's
going to cost, right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Yes.
MR. ABRAMS: I'd have to research it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean you couldn't
reliably tell me that and, you know, our
testimony is supposed to be based on expert
testimony. You know, we're supposed to base
our decision on what we hear from the people.
You know, just because someone comes in and
says it's going to be expensive, you know, I'd
say you get a contractor. You know, I mean
you brought up some good points, you know,
what it's probably going to take to do it.
Get a contractor, someone to tell you, hey,
this is what it's going to cost. You know,
you have to move the electricity, have to do
this, have to do that, this is what it's going
to cost to make it conforming.
MR. ABR~34S: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Because that's our
charge, that's what we're supposed to do.
We're supposed to at least grant variances
that are the most conforming.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it would
conform to size if they were separated, but
the side yard --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it would conform
then to side yard. The side yard as it goes
down, the side yard goes down, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It's supposed to be
MEMBER DINIZIO: To 10 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, it's -- Code
requires 15 feet. It's currently 11.5, the
Code requires 15-foot side yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not for a 400-square-
foot building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, for a much
smaller building, you're talking about.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, it would be about
-- it would be two smaller buildings.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I gotcha. It would
be 10 feet because the building would be
smaller.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ABRAMS: If
buildings --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
variance.
it was two smaller
You wouldn't need any
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The side yard
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
setback is reduced by the size of -- it's in
proportion to the size of the structure.
MR. ABRAMS: I see.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you tell me
when you built this, what year?
MR. ABRAMS: '07.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 2007.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right on that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just when it
turned.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA!~: Just when the law
changed and is it heated?
MR. ABRAMS: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there any
plumbing in it?
MR. ABP~AMS: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And it's used for?
MR. ABRAMS: Storage.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Strictly storage.
Okay. Amd why is it, sir, that you're before
us now?
MR. ABRAMS: Cause I need a variance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean, but how did
you become aware of that?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. ABR3~MS: Oh, I have solar panels on
the other roof and a year later I got a notice
saying that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So they saw it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You need a building
permit for that, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So they
realized that this was built without a
building permit and they said you need to come
before us --
MR. ABP~AMS:
saw it. I came
Actually, nobody came and
in and said what is this
notice for and I figured it was because
somebody did see the building. Nobody has
seen the building. They only knew cause I
said it was the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: The solar panels,
probably whoever put the solar panels on for
you --
MR. ABR3LMS: Yeah, but that was done much
earlier, years earlier.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I mean that
they just got around to it.
MR. ABRAMS: Yeah, but at that time, when
I got the notice it was still much later.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. No, I mean
someone was made aware in the Town somehow by
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It could have been
the Census writers.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
anybody.
MR. ABRAMS:
neighbor.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah,
your neighbor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Underwriters.
It could have been
It could have been my
it could have been
Ail right. Okay,
well it's interesting, you know, when there's
an as-built situation, it's interesting to
find out why we're now seeing it after the
fact rather than before. Now you've explained
why we didn't see it before the fact. I was
just curious as to how come we're looking at
this now.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Could I have a couple of
questions?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, please.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I have some
questions, too.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Did you have a
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contractor?
MR. ABRAMS: No.
MEMBER HORNING: So how, physically, how
did it actually get built?
MR. ABRAMS: I used the -- the contractor
who built the garage, originally, back in '03,
I used his workers on a weekend sort of after
work basis. So I knew all these guys.
MEMBER HORNING: Who made the plan? You
know the dimensional plan?
MR. ABR3~MS: That I sort of did as I went
along. I wasn't sure what size I wanted.
MEMBER HORNING: And you had no idea you
needed a building permit?
MR. ABRAMS: I knew I needed a permit at
some point, but I couldn't submit any drawings
cause I didn't know what size. In the middle
of the pour, I extended it five feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, but just to make
the pour, you need a building permit.
MR. ABRAMS: Yes. I understand that, but
I, when I was pouring it, I created a larger
base as I was pouring it because I felt I
needed -- I could only really understand
everything as I saw it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. ABRAMS: It seems odd then, I mean,
if you describe yourself living in Manhattan
where they probably need a permit for
everything except to breathe the air, you had
no realization that you needed a permit to do
this?
MR. ABRAMS: I did. I knew that I needed
a permit, but I figured I mean when we bought
the house there were things that didn't have a
permit that you had to get a permit later for.
It was 10 years later that they had to get a
permit. So I figured as soon as I had the
structure built I'd be going to apply for a
permit.
MEMBER HORNING: Except that's not how
this process works.
MR. ABRAMS: So I'm in doing that now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well back to the
permit issue here. Looking at the property
card, I guess you bought the house in 2000?
MR. ABRAMS: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, in 2000 you got
a building permit to convert the garage to a
living space.
MR. ABRAMS: Right, which was done
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
already, previously.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
another permit in '03
And then you got
to put a porch addition
and to construct a garage.
MR. ABRAMS: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So those permits were
acquired before the construction was done for
all those permits or acquired after the
construction was done or were those permits
acquired after the construction was done?
MR. ABRAMS: Those permits were done
before this extension was done.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
aware that permits have
construction?
Okay, so then you were
to be acquired before
MR. ABRAMS: I knew I had to --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, so we've
established that.
MR. ABRAMS:
could be after.
(Inaudible), I thought it
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, this next
question I guess is directed to the Board a
little bit. If you have two accessory
structures on your parcel, what is the minimum
distance for them to be separated by? Does it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
need to be five feet or can it be -- is it
five feet?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now it's five feet, but
there's -- I wasn't really looking at that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know, but what
I'm saying --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think it's five feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's five feet. Well,
another alternative to moving this addition to
the garage would be to cut off five feet and
just make it smaller. That might be even less
expensive operation than to increase the slab
and move it all over five feet.
MR. ABRAMS: Yeah, that would be less
expensive. It's just ironic, when I made the
pour, I made it five feet more.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It is, it is ironic,
but you see my point where you could actually
-- the part that
garage --
MR. ABR3kMS: Yeah,
you're saying. You're
cut that off.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
is attached to the existing
I understand what
saying at the end just
Yeah, cut that off
five feet, that might be another option and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
maybe Member Dinizio would want a cost on
that, too.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I know it'll be
less than -- I'm asking for the drastic part.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think we should make
the decision based on that and, you know, sure
anything you want to give or anything -- any
compromise you want to propose, certainly you
know that's -- the Board can consider that.
MR. ABRAMS: Well, I would certainly go
with the later surgery.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
need to come to us.
hearing, go cut off
Well, you wouldn't even
You could cancel this
the five feet of the
building -- you know, go check with the
Building Department make sure that it has to
be separated five feet and you could just do
that. You'd be on your merry way. You
wouldn't need to come to us, you wouldn't need
to get the estimates, it would just be done.
Now, let me just say this, the rafters
might not line up five feet. Okay, so say
they line up and the building ends up with,
you know, with the siding and everything on at
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
4-1/2 feet, okay, so you may want to still be
before us so we may consider that 6-inch
variance as opposed to, you know, what it
might be.
Now, you know,
hearing right away,
I wouldn't drop the
I would just --- I would
talk to the Building Inspector, if that's the
way you want to go, and then I would have
somebody look at how those rafters line up
cause that's probably going to be your most --
the most important part is going to be not
wanting to rip out as much of the building as
you can. You want to try to save that, cut it
up five feet and, you know, put what you have
to do. You may end up with, you know, being
six feet, you may end up four feet six inches
at which time if the separation of buildings
is five feet -- it might be 10 feet, I don't
know what it is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm not sure that
it says in the Code, does it?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, there's a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Separation between
the set -- You know, one of the things is if
it's a 750-square-foot conforming structure,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the garage and extension, we would have to
really look and see whether you'd need a --
whether the setback would be 10 feet or 15
feet based on the size of your lot because it
may be that the side yard would still not be
conforming, in which case you wouldn't need a
size variance, but you would need a side yard
variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah,
Building Inspectors look at
but, you know, the
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Yeah, well exactly,
but we may still need to have a variance for
the side yard.
MR. ABRAMS: I see that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You see what I'm
saying, just include -- I have to check the
Code.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just to clear this up
for this gentleman, what are we asking him to
do?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, yeah let's --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's clear this up
so we can find out what you're asking him to
do so we can continue.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, my -- I mean I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
asking him to tell us what it would cost to
separate those two buildings.
MR. ABRAMS: Right, I understand that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And make it conforming,
okay, to make it conforming would mean that
the Building Inspector would make that
decision. Okay, so you'd have to go to him
with your plans and he would not deny you and
then that would be the end of that. You would
need -- cause you're going to need a permit,
number one, to demolish whatever you're going
to demolish and you're going to need a permit
to build whatever you're going to rebuild.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I suspect the point
is that if you consult with a contractor and
find out specifically what the cost of
altering the as-built structure would be and
submit that to us, then we have the choice of
being able to say well this is, despite the
fact that there were errors, this is an
economic hardship now to make it conforming
and we can proceed with the possibility of
granting it or denying it, but that
information would help make the decision.
The other option is to say, well, I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
going to go ahead and make it conforming one
way or the other and then you would need to
get a new Notice of Disapproval or not, to see
whether or not the size would be conforming,
but to see whether or not the side yard would
continue to be nonconforming. Those are
really the options.
We can close this hearing reserving
decision subject to receipt of that
information, in other words two strategies.
One is what would it mean in terms of any
potential variances based upon separating the
two buildings or reducing the size of the
existing structure from the Building
Department's point of view and what would it
cost you.
MR. ABRAMS: Well, I guess --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From the Building
Department's point of view.
MR. ABR~MS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that a
summation?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I mean all I was
looking for is, you know, what hardship.
That's all I was looking for.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I was looking
for and -- but I would not want to close that
hearing. I'd want to have him --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Come back.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- give his explanation,
you know, and certainly give him an
opportunity to comment on what we think about
the cost. You know, if he comes before us and
says it's going to be this much and I say,
well, you know, that doesn't sound too bad,
why don't you, you know, give him the
opportunity to say no that's a lot of money,
you know, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can
adjourn to another date, subject to the
receipt of this. My goal is to try to do the
fewest number of hearings possible because of
the time involved, the staff, with all of us
and with our calendar. You can hear more
hearings more quickly if you don't have to
rehear the ones that we're doing all the time,
but if that's the way the Board wants to
proceed, I don't have any objection, if the
applicant's okay with that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Do you understand sir, what we're
suggesting?
MR. ABRAMS: Yes, go to the Building
Department with different plans.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. You could
just go in and discuss it with them. Get
something in writing from them saying that if
you did this, this would then be either
totally conforming or you'd still need a side
yard variance. Then you'd need information
from a contractor to say this is what it would
cost you to separate the two buildings or to
whack off five feet.
MR. ABR3tMS: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just to give you a
little advice, I wouldn't go to the Building
Inspector for any advice. I would go to a
contractor. I know it cost money, I would go
to a contractor, make up my mind what I could
live with, have him draw it up, have him
submit the plans. That would be the easiest
way for you to do it, sir. That would be the
easiest way for you to do it.
MR. ABPJtMS: Fine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: And then certainly, in
the meantime, you know, you can come back to
us with those costs. If you want to send them
to us, you know, we may decide, okay, it looks
good. Have the hearing the next day, the next
time we have it, it takes five minutes. We
vote on it and then it's approved. It could
be that simple.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right.
MR. ABRAMS: I don't know, I can't give
you a time limit on --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I didn't mean to throw a
monkey wrench into it, but it's just -- it's
obvious what can happen here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, does
anybody else in the audience would like to
speak in favor or against this application?
Hearing none, I'm going to make a motion
to adjourn this hearing to July 29th at 1:00
p.m. Okay?
MR. ABRAMS: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6376 - Toni M. Fine
and Barbara J. Cohen
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-15, based on an application for building
permit for nas-built" accessory shed, and the
Building Inspector's January 25, 2010 Notice
of Disapproval concerning ~as-built" 10X16
accessory shed, location of accessory shed in
the front yard rather than code required rear
yard; at 3100 Indian Neck Lane and Leslie's
Road, Peconic, NY. SCTM#1000-98-1-2.14."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning.
Would you please state your name for the
record?
MS. COHEN: Barbara Cohen, C-O-H-E-N.
[This applicant is very hard to hear.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. COHEN: I'm one of the applicants and
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and what would
you like to tell us about the shed?
MS. COHEN: Well, we're here to request
that we be allowed to have this shed stay in
this location (inaudible) front yard of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
parcel. The property has two front yards and
that's the question -- issue. The shed that
was there when we purchased the property back
in December of '08 was in terrible disrepair
and when we were involved in purchasing the
property (inaudible) and the contractors who
would come later to talk about what can be
done to repair it or rebuild it they all said
as long as you kept to the footprint it was
okay to replace it if you have to and what we
found out subsequent to that is that that's
not true.
So that once it was determined that there
was no way it could be repaired, it had a dirt
floor, the termites were eating the frames and
so on, we had -- we removed it and replaced it
with exactly the same 10 by 16, it was
actually the same height and so on to exactly
what was there.
The main house, the -- is (inaudible) 19tn
century house, but unfortunately it has very
little storage space. The attic is
inaccessible. The basement is three-quarters
crawl space. The remaining part of the
basement that is a partial basement that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
under the kitchen has all the utilities, the
oil tank, the boiler and so on. So there's no
storage opportunity there. We have no garage
on the site. The kitchen itself, although
it's great with all its windows, it has also
three doorways along one wall and since
there's very little wall space. So we're
really crunched to have storage space.
The building itself along -- where it
sits now in its location is appropriate. It
has the (inaudible) and how it does to keep
the character of the neighborhood and it's in
sight line with the other buildings that have
been there since the 1970s and the -- there's
really, the way it sits within the trees that
have grown around it, moving it would be
almost impossible and there really is no other
option in terms of satisfying a conforming
option because of the front yard and the -- so
we (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On Leslie Road, the
edge of pavement on Leslie Road, do you see it
on your survey? How far do you think it is to
your property line? What I'm trying to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
establish here is what the distance, the
closest point of your proposed shed is to the
edge of pavement on Leslie Road.
MS. COHEN: I know on the survey it says
6.2 feet --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MS. COHEN: Yeah,
that's very short.
To the property line.
I don't -- I think
I can't tell you for sure
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MS. COHEN: Yeah,
At least 10 feet?
I would say another 4
feet. Yeah, I would definitely (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And your argument for
not moving the shed to the rear of your
dwelling is it's heavily treed or what is in
the back of your --
MS. COHEN: The rear meaning the north
side of the house, is that what you're calling
the rear?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Mmm, yeah. To the
rear of the house.
MS. COHEN: Yeah, there's wooded areas to
the rear, really all around the house and
certainly in that whole south area. I think I
provided a sort of a planting plan a little
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bit
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
49
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
MS. COHEN: -- in the appendix is sort of
-- there's some locust trees all over the
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
the removal of existing trees?
MS. COHEN: Trees to get it
one.
So it would require
out, number
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: How'd you get it in?
MS. COHEN: Excuse me?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: How'd you get it in?
MS. COHEN: It was actually a kit.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, it was stick-built
on site?
MS. COHEN: Yeah, it was built, you know,
in pieces and then when (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MS. COHEN: I think (inaudible) better
barns.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure, yeah, I saw
that.
MS. COHEN: And it (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I wasn't sure if it
was delivered. Sometimes you can buy these
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
sheds delivered.
MS. COHEN:
they were really
Right, I didn't see where
-- I looked and looked and
looked for a handsome one and a lot of those
that are pre-built ones I didn't think was
appropriate here at all. So I went to the
(inaudible) in Connecticut and an appropriate
one really for the (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I have no
further questions.
MEMBER HORNING: Would you describe the
foundation or the footing that the building is
on for us?
MS. COHEN: It's set on concrete blocks.
It's also anchored. I don't know what it's
exactly called, the thing that is the anchor.
It's a stake or -- but there is an anchor that
anchors it.
MEMBER HORNING: And again, you purchased
it as a kit and it was assembled on the site;
is that correct?
MS. COHEN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING:
MS. COHEN: No,
MEMBER HORNING:
The --
By local contractors?
the --
The Connecticut company?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MS. COHEN: What was that?
MEMBER HORNING: By the Connecticut
company, they --
MS. COHEN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: -- came over and
delivered it and put it up for you?
MS. COHEN: Right. Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Prior to that, you
mentioned consulting with contractors. You
had done that, local contractors?
MS. COHEN: Yes, cause I wasn't sure
whether it could be repaired cause that would
have been the best solution, but it was clear
that that wasn't possible.
MEMBER HORNING: What size of a structure
were you talking about with the local
contractors?
MS. COHEN: The same one because I
understood that as long as you had the same --
MEMBER HORNING: How -- rough number, how
many local contractors did you actually have
brief conversations with, one or two or more
than that?
MS. COHEN: No, we -- I (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Okay and none of them
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
told you that you need -- that you needed a
building permit?
MS. COHEN: No, they all -- they all said
that as long as you -- as long as you put
exactly what you had there and what was there
did not have any -- it had a dirt floor, it's
the -- it didn't have any, you know, added
foundation or, you know, (inaudible) was a
shed.
MEMBER HORNING: Wait, correct me, isn't
10 by 10, isn't that what's allow as a shed?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Without a permit.
MEMBER HORNING: So anything else
requires --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In a rear yard.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, but anything
larger requires a permit, correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It does, but what
happens frequently is the builders will say
sometimes if you replace in kind then you're
okay.
MEMBER HOHNING: But if you demolish it -
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's not always
true because this is not a conforming
location.
MEMBER HORNING: And then it's a
demolition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nobody told you
that.
MS. COHEN: No one told us that
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: I think we should get,
as Jim was suggesting for another application,
a cost review here because when I look at it I
think you could easily have put it in a
conforming location on the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I comment?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, Jim, go ahead.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
think so --
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Well, George I don't
No?
-- because if you look
at the yard there is no --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no
conforming location.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The front yard or side
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
yard here on this lot --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and you know it --
yeah, there's no conforming place for them to
go with it.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, along side of that
greenhouse area or something?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
yard.
MEMBER HORNING:
That would be a side
That's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no rear
yard. Secondly, I walked all over this
property and when you look at an open area
that does not disturb large trees there's
almost none. The point of moving it from a
nonconforming location to another
nonconforming location makes absolutely no
sense.
My only question, I think you've, you
know, clearly explained your need for storage,
okay, the reason it's where it is. You've
shown of the existing dilapidated one that --
the same size as what you replaced, this new
one, and my question to you is the only thing
that I think is potentially intrusive is the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
fact that from Leslie it's very visible. You
know, and the lot across the street -- the one
lot next to you is all very wooded, there's
nothing there. The residential lot across
Leslie is very well screened with evergreens
and set way back from the street and I'm just
wondering can you stick some say Mountain
Laurel or something that takes the shade in
between the existing trees just to try and
screen that a little bit more from Leslie?
MS. COHEN: Actually, our concern was we
got (inaudible) you know, barbecuing and all
that, it was very clear that Leslie Road was a
very open viewing point and that our plans
were to do more screening,
be easily done.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
which can certainly
So if we approve
this with a condition that you plant evergreen
screening appropriate, you know, it's going to
live with those trees -- Laurel is one
possibility to do a variety will grow pretty
tall, but that would be really up to you, that
would be acceptable to you?
MS. COHEN: Sure, but that's what we were
planning to do.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You were planning
to screen that anyway.
MS. COHEN: To do more screening on the
56
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
Ail right, I have no further questions.
All right, anybody else on the Board?
MEMBER DINIZIO: When did you go through
all these contractors, what year? Do you
remember, was it just recently or --
MS. COHEN: We purchased in December '08,
so in the months following because this got
done in May -- April of '09. So once all the
guys were, you know, (inaudible) then
(inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I mean, I could
tell you just from past practices that most
contractors don't really consider the Town
Code. I mean they see something and they know
that they can -- they think that they can just
replace in kind and it's been a normal course
for many, many years that's what you could do
and really there's nothing in the Code that
says you can't do that, except our Zoning Code
which of course (inaudible) exists.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
So I could understand your argument on
contractors telling you that, look, just
replace and in kind you'd probably be okay and
as far as front yard back yard, I don't know a
contractor that would look at that first thing
and say bingo, you know, you need a variance.
As far as the permit's concerned, again, you
know, I guess that's confusing that's been
happening quite a bit with law changes, but
that was way back when from you needed a
permit for any, to 10 feet by 10 feet was you
didn't need a permit for. It had to do with
fences, also, but I think that was probably 10
years ago they did that.
Certainly, you have no other place that
you could put it on this piece of property shy
of hooking it onto your house, which I guess
you don't want to do.
MS. COHEN: Which would be good cause
then it would be year-round accessible --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MS. COHEN: -- anywhere else would
certainly be difficult. You'd be basically
reducing it to a tool shed that you wouldn't
use frequently. Here, you'd kinda want to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
able to get extra glasses for a party or
something, it's --
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, so you kinda
consider it an inconvenience where it is
anyway.
MS. COHEN: But it's -- at least you can
get to it through the, you know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Through your
driveway.
All right, I'm going to -- in the
interest of time and the other hearings, we're
really behind time, I'm going to ask if there
is anyone in the audience who would like to
speak to this application? Okay. Hearing
none -- do you have a green card?
MS. COHEN: I have one more.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Please
bring that forward. Okay.
Hearing no other comments, I'd like to
close this hearing, reserving decision to a
later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6377 - Allison Tupper
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-116B, based on an application for building
permit for additions and alterations, and the
Building Inspector's November 19, 2009,
updated March 1, 2010 Notice of Disapproval
concerning additions and alterations to
existing dwelling, at less than the code
required setback from bulkhead of 75 feet; at
3050 Minnehaha Blvd.,
Creek) Southold, NY.
Mr. Lehnart?
(adjacent to Corey
SCTM#1000-87-3-41."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. LEHNART: Rob Lehnart, L-E-H-N-A-R-T,
here for Allison Tupper.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me, before
you get started, Rob, do you have any more
green cards? We have some missing.
MR. LEHNART: No, that's all that came
back.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Two are missing.
MR. LEHNART: When I get them I'll hand
them back, I haven't gotten them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, can you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
do something about maybe tracking them down,
can you trace them and see what's going on?
MR. LEHNART: Yeah,
gave you so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. LEHNART: Okay.
I'll (inaudible) I
Okay, thank you.
We have a simple
application today. We're basically looking to
put dormers on top of an existing dwelling.
Basically, the only reason we're here is the
existing house is too close, per Code, to the
bulkhead.
The existing house is 37-1/2 feet from
the bulkhead. We're looking to affix two
dormers, the closest one at 40.6.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It does seem totally
simple.
MR. LEHNART: And we haven't built them
yet .
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, you haven't built
them, that's good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank goodness.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm assuming you know
what it's going to cost --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could you tell us
what it would take to move the house?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah,
dollars.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
in writing?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
to ask is how's the
about a million
Could we have that
The only thing we have
foundation?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Is it going to
support two dormers?
MR. LEHNART: The foundation is
absolutely fine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay,
I need to know. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
good. That's all
I'd like to add
that this is exempt from LWRP. We received a
letter, okay, so stating. It's set back,
actually, the second story is set back from
the first story, so it's really landward of
the first story anyway.
Amy other questions down the line here?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
You just -- you really get a feel for
Corey Creek when you come down there, it's a
really beautiful, beautiful spot.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: George, any
questions?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: No questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How do ya like
that?
Anybody in the audience who would like to
speak to this application?
Hearing none, I'd like to make a motion
to close this hearing, reserving decision to a
later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6369 - Unexcelled LLC
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-85(D) 7 and 280-86C based on an application
for building permit for freestanding and
direction signs, and the Building Inspector's
January 7, 2010 Notice of Disapproval
concerning construction of signs, 1) sign
exceeding more than the code required 24 sq.
ft., 2) more than the code required maximum of
two signs in a "B"
25, Mattituck, N Y.
Zone - B."
Zone; at 10300 NYS Route
SCTM#1000-143-3-33.2.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, would you
please just state your name into the record?
Speak into the microphone.
MS. PORTER: Sure. My name is Jennifer
Porter. I'm an attorney with Gibbons and I'm
here on behalf of the applicant, Unexcelled
LLC, as well as the developer of the site, JP
Morgan Chase Bank. I also have with me Amy
Bennett who is a sign company representative
from NW Sign Industries, which is the sign
vender for JP Morgan Chase.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can you just try,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
if there's an on/off switch on that?
BOARD SECRETARY: It's on.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's on?
BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah, it's just not
very --
MS. PORTER: Speak up?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, as much as
you can.
MS. PORTER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, what would
you like to tell us?
MS. PORTER: Okay, basically we are here
today seeking two sign variances. Just by way
of background, Chase recently received all of
its approvals in connection with this
development of a freestanding Chase Bank and
drive-thru at the property, which is located
at 10300 Main Road and those approvals were
received on May 3rd for site plan and final
subdivision approval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is from the
Planning Board?
MS. PORTER: Correct. We've also been to
the Architecture and Landscape Commission and
have received their approval and sign-off as
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
well and have applied for our building permits
and are in the building permit review process
and the expectation is to commence
construction in early June.
What we're here for today are the two
sign variances that were referenced in the
legal notice. The first sign variance is to
permit a 25-square-foot monument sign. The
Code allows for a 24-square-foot monument
sign. When Chase actually has typical
prototype signage that it proposes in
connection with all of its branches and it
just happens to be 1-square-foot over the
maximum, which is permitted by your
municipality.
Just two things
with respect to that
that we wanted to note
sign were that Chase is
proposing a monument sign. We had actually
originally come to the Planning Board with a
much larger blade style sign, but because of
comments and feedback from the Planning Board
we've switched that to a freestanding lollypop
style eye-line sign, which they also gave us
feedback on, and so we ultimately decided to
go with a monument style sign because it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
more in keeping with the character of the
community and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is that why the
Notice of Disapproval says 28 square feet?
MS. PORTER: The Notice of Disapproval
actually is incorrect, it is a 25-square-foot
sign. I'm not exactly sure why it says -- the
sign and the sign details that were submitted
were actually for a 25-square-foot sign. I
think it might have just been a type-o, but it
is 25 square feet. We are only seeking a
variance for 1-square-foot.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. PORTER: And then the other variance
that we're seeking is to permit four
directional signs at the property. The way
that the Code reads in connection with that is
that for all types of property, particularly
with respect to commercial property, and our
property is situated in the B-General Business
District, you're permitted to have a
combination of two signs and what we've
provided for at this site is actually we have
one wall sign proposed which is on the front
facade of the building and we have a monument
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
sign; however, with all of our sites, in order
to allow for like safe and easy access through
the site and to direct customers to the
parking areas, through the drive-thru, to the
exit areas, we proposed directional signs as
well, but because we're limited under the Code
to those two signs, we're seeking that
variance to provide additional directional
signs on the property. Each one of those
signs would be 5 square feet, so they're small
signs, and we submitted details of those signs
and have it with us today if you'd like to see
pictures of that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Definitely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Each of those signs
is 5 square feet?
MS. PORTER: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you want how
many directional signs?
MS. PORTER: Four.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Four and you have
one wall sign in addition.
MS. PORTER: Yes. One wall sign and then
the main, the monument sign.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the monument,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
so those are the two.
MS. PORTER: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you're seeking a
variance for four directional signs at 5
square feet each.
MS. PORTER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are they to be --
where will they -- you have them on a site
plan someplace?
MS. PORTER: We do
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MS. PORTER: It would actually
(inaudible) like that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think we
have a copy of that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, we don't.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MS. BENNETT: I have
could give you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
No.
(inaudible) that I
Would you please
distribute them? Thank you.
While we're waiting for those site plans
to come up, Jim, do you have any questions or
you wanted to see what they have?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just -- no questions
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yet, other than I was a little concerned about
the two signs permitted. I didn't quite
understand the whole (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I didn't either. I
couldn't figure this out.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And the 28 square feet
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MS. PORTER: It's a little cryptic the
way that it's worded and also there's another
provision in the Code which actually says that
directional/informational signage is exempt
from the sign permit requirement, but then it
says but it's subject to all other
requirements of the Code. So to be
conservative we said, well, if it's subject to
every other requirement and you can only have
two signs, even though you don't need a permit
for it, technically you might need a variance
for it. So we went to the Building Inspector
and he made a determination and he said that's
why, you know, we're here today.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Do you know what section
of the Code that -- what actual section that
is?
MS. PORTER: I do, I actually have it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
with me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Good, you're doing my
work for me.
MS. PORTER: It is section 280-86C.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 86C that refers to the
directional signs?
MS. PORTER: It actually says, "The
following signs will be allowed in the
business areas of the Town, which shall
include all areas zoned," and it lists all the
districts included our District B, and then it
says under C(1), ~Two of the following
alternatives: (a) a freestanding sign," which
is one of the signs that we're proposing the
monument sign. (B) is a business (inaudible)
sign," which we're not proposing, (C) is a
window sign, which we're not proposing and (D)
is a wall sign, which is our one sign on the
building. Then it says under Code Section --
I'm sorry, under subsection C(4) it says,
"Such other signs as are authorized by
variance" (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: So here we are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So here we are,
right. Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Go ahead,
Jerry.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Are the directional
signs lighted?
MS. PORTER: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MS. PORTER: No, that's -- I'm glad you
actually raised that question because when
Chase originally proposed this application it
did seek internal illumination of the signage,
but based on feedback, again, from the
Planning Board and from the Architectural
Board, indicating that they highly disfavored
any type of internally illuminated signage.
All of our signage at the site is illuminated
from external sources.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. PORTER: And the directional signs
are not illuminated.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So the sign on the
building will be lighted internally or
externally?
MS. PORTER: Externally, they're goose-
neck --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
shines on it.
(inaudible).
better.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
your name on the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
talk into the mike.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Gooseneck, okay and
so will be the case on the ground sign.
MS. PORTER: Right. The ground sign
actually has a hood over it which actually
It's like a special kind of
Amy might be able to speak to it
We need you to state
You have to come
MS. BENNETT: There's a sleeve hood that
goes over it and the light hits downward onto
the monument. It doesn't shield anywhere
around (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no light
spill in other words.
MS. BENNETT: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We need your name for
the record.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's allowed by
Code.
MS. BENNETT: Amy Bennett.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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MS. PORTER: And then I also wanted to,
just for one minute I know that we're kept to
a strict time limit I just wanted to quickly
run through the variance criteria and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MS. PORTER: -- just basically give our
rationale in support of the variances.
First, we believe that the variances
should be granted because the proposed signage
is entirely consistent with the character of
the area. We're in a commercial zone, we're
surrounded by commercial uses, and you can --
I refer you to actually the pictures that we
submitted with our application. We're
directly across the street from one of the
shopping centers. We're by Starbucks, CVS, a
grocery store --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Waldbaum's.
MS. PORTER: Mattituck shopping center,
waldbaum's, Capital One, Rite-Aid, Starbucks,
CVS are all within close vicinity of our site
and what our signage has done -- and
specifically one of the purposes of the B-
District is to design and accommodate uses
that benefit a large number of motorists. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
again signage and curb appeal is a critical
component of that attraction of those large
number of motorists to the site, particularly
for a bank, which derives a lot its business
from pass-by traffic and use of its drive-
thru.
Number two, there are no other feasible
alternatives in connection with the signage
proposed. As I explained for the monument
sign, we're only seeking 1-square-foot over
just because the way that our signs are
manufactured it's actually manufactured and
designed specifically as a 25-square-foot
sign. we'd have to go to a completely
different sign in order to basically
accommodate the site if you were to deny the
variance in connection with that. With
respect to the directional signs, again, those
are prototypical prefabricated signs which are
designed to meet the needs of our site and
which are coordinated in size so as to best
accommodate our customer traffic.
Third, I'd like to point out that none of
the variances that we're seeking we believe
are substantial. With respect to the variance
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
for the monument, again, it's 1-square-foot
over the max permitted by your Code, and with
respect to the directional signs, although we
are seeking a variance for four signs, those
signs are limited to 5 square feet each and
they're small directional signs as opposed to
seeking another say wall sign or a large
freestanding sign in addition to the monument
sign.
Fourth, we believe that the proposed
signs are in keeping in character with the
surrounding uses in the community and,
therefore, they do not impact any physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood
and lastly, even though the variances are
self-created with respect to this application,
we believe that the variances and the benefits
with respect to our application on the whole
substantially outweigh any detriment that
would be caused by the approval of those
variances and for those reasons we believe
that the variances should be granted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS PORTER: Oh, and one other item, the
last thing I wanted to point out is that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Planning Board did support the variances that
we're seeking and I believe they sent a memo -
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MS. PORTER:
Zoning Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
on record.
They did.
-- back in March to the
Yes, we have that
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: My last question is,
excuse me one second, what bank has similar
signs; the Chase Bank in Riverhead?
MS. PORTER: In the Riverhead shopping
center, the signs? That has similar signage,
but that is -- I believe that is internally
illuminated, but it's similar looking in the
sense that the (inaudible). Yeah, you --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Which would be the
closest one that would be closest to the same
signs?
MS. PORTER: I would say probably the one
in Riverhead because the one in the Riverhead
shopping center is brand-new, that just went
in last year and that is very similar, except
the only difference here is that because, you
know, in order to accommodate the fact that
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it's a dark-sky compliant area and this
municipality cares very much about keeping
signage and particularly illumination of
signage to like an absolute minimum, it won't
be lit up like I would say our typical
signage. So the look is the same, it's just
it's not lit from the back.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MS. PORTER: Our directional signs would
be the same as in Riverhead.
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I -- I think Jerry
was trying to get to is that a 25-square-foot
sign?
MS. PORTER: I don't think -- Riverhead
doesn't actually have a monument sign. That
is actually -- it's within a shopping center
so that doesn't have the same style monument
sign.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Are there any places
that do?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You don't have to
give it to us right now, you can send us a
short note.
MS. PORTER: Okay, sure. I can look. I
believe we're proposing one in the Town of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Brookhaven and we have several other sites.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, one that's
existing, it would be nice to look at.
MEMBER DINIZIO: On the south shore,
maybe.
MS. PORTER: Yeah, we absolutely can
submit pictures, we can submit details.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any questions from
the Board?
Is there anyone in the audience who'd
like to speak in favor or against this
proposal?
I'd like the record to once again reflect
that this proposal has the full endorsement of
the Planning Board and has gone through
complete site plan review and ARC review.
The question that I have, before we close
this, is since the Notice of Disapproval is
inaccurate and your application shows 1-
square-foot rather than -- 25 rather than 28,
do we want to get an amended Notice of
Disapproval or is that not necessary?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I looked at that. It
says, approximately.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It doesn't really say
what it is, so you know --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So then we'll
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq:
it.
fudge
Okay, we don't need
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you at
this morning I was calculating numbers on
3:40
this sign and they don't seem to go and that
was the reason I jumped on the signs and thank
you for answering that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, fine. I
just wanted to make sure that we had all our
ducks in a row and that we didn't need any
additional information.
MS. PORTER: Right. I think that if it
had been in reverse, meaning that if we were
seeking something larger than what he had
disallowed for, we would have gone back and
fixed the Notice of Disapproval prior to this,
but since it was for -- we're seeking a
variance which is smaller than that which we
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noticed for, that we went with that particular
notice.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, hearing
no further comments from the audience or from
the Board, I'll make a motion to close this
hearing reserving decision to a later date.
Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6378 - Anthony Bonagura
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
"Applicants request a Special Exception
under Section 280-13B(14). The Applicants are
the owners requesting authorization to
establish an Accessory Bed and Breakfast,
accessory and incidental to their residential
occupancy in this single-family dwelling, with
four (4) bedrooms for lodging and serving of
breakfast to the B&B casual, transient
roomers. Location of Property: 900 Holbrook
Lane, (adj. Mattituck Creek) Mattituck, NY.
SCTM#1000-113-6-11. Zone - R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay is there
anyone here to -- Mr. Bonagura, did you Want
to come forward? Would you please state your
name for the record?
MR. BONAGURA: Anthony Bonagura, property
owner of 900 Holbrook Lane, Mattituck, New
York.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Go ahead, did you
want to go?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I guess you'll
be also testifying?
MS. BONAGURA: Yes. Barbara Bonagura.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you
very much.
Before we begin questioning, do you want
to have them provide testimony?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. I just want to
ask a question. You graciously showed us your
lovely house on Saturday. Were we looking at
four bedrooms or three bedrooms at the time?
MR. BONAGURA: Four.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Four bedrooms, okay.
I was misconstrued by the first one. I
thought it was only three bedrooms, but it's
four.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, four.
MR. BONAGURA: Three and the master on
the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On the front
overlooking the water, okay. Thank you.
What would you like to tell us regarding
this? Do you have any opening statement so to
speak?
MS. BONAGUI~A: I was not --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Prepared.
MS. BONAGUP~A: -- prepared to make a
statement, but --
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, what got you to
this particular point, is the issue, of
applying for a B&B?
MS. BONAGURA: Well, we had had some
issues in the past of finances and so we
figured how could we build upon things. We
wanted to establish maybe a business and stay
within the local community cause Anthony now
works in the community and I work from home
and so we have past experience with the
restaurant business and so we figured we would
try and utilize it in that capacity as a Bed &
Breakfast.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There have been some
concerns, there will be some forthcoming
concerns regarding the access to your
property, meaning over the private road.
You're aware of that?
MS. BONAGURA: I am now.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. BONAGURA: We had heard some
opposition on the road and I don't know -- I
haven't seen any of the letters of opposition.
I haven't had any interaction with anybody
coming to my door to try and talk to me about
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
anything or find out why we're doing this or
what the reasoning is. So I don't really know
what the opposition is.
Is it only the road that's the
opposition?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I don't know. I just
MS. BONAGURA: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You know, at this
particular point I -- it's a private road.
Okay, we have granted B&Bs on private roads
before. The only real aspect of dealing with
that issue is that, as in any private road
that accesses many houses, the road has to be
kept up. Okay and ingress and egress has to
exist for yourselves and all the other
property owners on that road.
MS. BONAGUP~A: I just want to say one
thing. When we applied previously to have our
summer cottage expanded to the 7-bedroom, 7-
bathroom house, the Town approved it. They
approved this house and they approved that
since it's going from a small cottage that
there would be obviously more people living
there and we had hoped in the past to have
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
Anthony's mother and my parents living there
with my grandmother and that has not worked
out thus far, so that's why we're going to
another avenue.
So in the interim there would have been
other people living there, but like I said,
that hasn't worked out thus far and we're very
careful how we drive in and out of the road.
We respect everything. We have been working
with Paul Pulaski in road maintenance any time
that he has been the person that usually says
let's get together, let's maintain the road
and we are in agreement with anything that --
and going forward we would definitely be more
of a participant in the road upkeep in having
this business.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
in your mouth or mouths,
I'm not putting words
would you be
stressing that aspect either on the internet
or in any communication to any of the persons
that would be using a vehicular access to this
site also?
MS. BONAGURA: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I notice you have a
parking plan and the parking plan is for four
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
vehicles and looking at the property, Mr.
Bonagura, you had indicated that you were
anticipating the parking underneath, we'll
refer to it as a portico and the two other
parking spaces, which is a total of four.
Okay, for this Bed & Breakfast, that's one for
each car if they so chose to use vehicular
access; is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One for each room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: One for each room,
rather.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: And two in the
garage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And two in the garage
for yourselves. Right?
MR. BONAGUR3~: Two in the garage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have no further
questions at this time. I reserve the right
to come back and ask further questions.
MEMBER HORNING: One quick one. The one
letter we received from a Paul and Ann
(Inaudible).
MR. BONAGURA: Across the street.
MEMBER HORNING: So what would be their
physical address then? It doesn't say it on
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
here. Oh, yes it does, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it does on
the bottom.
MEMBER HORNING: 595, okay. You say
across the street so is that about 1.2 acre
size? Is that what they have there?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we'll get --
MEMBER HORNING: I see.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- if you want to
make some comments, we'll get to that in a
second.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Got it. Okay.
The other neighbor? Who is this?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They're anonymous.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay,
Holbrook Lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Anonymous --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
for --
Resident on
So we have an
Do we have any copies
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, because we just
got these two, but I would like to let the
applicants know that if you will stop by our
office, Vicki will provide you with copies of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
all the correspondence we've received.
MS. BONAGURA: That would be wonderful.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome.
MEMBER HORNING: If someone was going to
put a Jet ski on a trailer or something and
come out there for the weekend or something --
MR. BONAGURA: (Inaudible, not at
microphone.) (Inaudible) water skiers, ski
boats or anything like that permitted in the
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: No powerboats?
MR. BONAGURA: You could have a
powerboat, but you have to maintain the 5 mile
an hour speed in and out.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, do you anticipate
people coming there with trailers for the
weekend carrying recreational gear?
MR. BONAGURA: No, sir.
MEMBER HORNING:
cars, anything like
MS. BONAGURA:
Canoes on top of their
that?
They would be coming
themselves with their vehicle and that's it.
MR. BONAGURA: We have a dock on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
property that you could sail up to or motor up
to, but that's gotta be done within the legal
limits of the law. Access (inaudible) --
MEMBER HORNING: In other words, if I
wanted to come there for a couple of nights on
the weekend and I suggested, hey, I have a
canoe or kayaks, I'm going to put them on the
roof of my car; I mean what --
MR. BONAGUtlA: A canoe is acceptable.
MEMBER HORNING: You would accept things
on the roofs of cars? I mean, what I'm
getting at is in this right-of-way, the
private right-of-way, which, you know, how
accessible is it? Could somebody tow kayaks
on a trailer and come to your B&B and --
MS. BONAGURA: I wouldn't want anybody
coming in with anything other than their
vehicle. Nothing else.
MEMBER HORNING: You would accept kayaks
on top of their vehicle let's say,
be appropriate?
MS. BONAGURA: I'm saying no.
just them and their vehicle, that's
MEMBER HORNING: I mean it's a
area.
that would
I'm saying
it.
lovely
I mean I would see if somebody wanted
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
to bring a kayak here, I don't find it
unacceptable, but I'm kind of overall
addressing the concern of the access and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just state
something for the record concerning that,
George? There is a Town ramp on County Road
48 and a Park District ramp on County Road 48
both of which require permits; however, there
is a substantial, and I use that word
substantial, DEC ramp being constructed now as
we speak to probably one of the most fantastic
specifications I have ever seen in reference
to the amount of money spent on Mattituck
Creek down by the breakwater site, probably
within 800-1000 feet of the breakwater site.
A person could very readily go down there and
launch whatever watercraft they had, okay, at
that site and I would urge these people to
have them do that, okay, as opposed to
bringing anything on their site, trying to
drag it across their property to the
waterfront. That's just my opinion.
MR. BONAGURA: No.
MEMBER HORNING: For the record, you're
stating you're not going to encourage --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
you're going to discourage at least as the
minimum people bringing other than their cars
to the site?
MR. BONAGUP~A: Correct.
MS. BONAGURA: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to make a
couple of comments and then, Jim, you can go
after me, please.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Clearly there's
some concern about additional traffic coming
and going along Holbrook Lane because it is a
dirt road and it is narrow and two cars can't
easily pass. So that needs to be addressed
when you're bringing in additional people.
There are some other concerns about the fact
that there is no turnaround. I'm assuming
that based on your site plan that traffic
would come into your property, turn around on
your property and exit without backing up onto
the street; is that correct?
MS. BONAGURA: Yes, that is correct.
MR. BONAGURA: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Concerning
security, loitering and vandalism; you will be
living there as your principal year-round
residence as you are now, correct?
MS. BONAGURA: Yes and we have a 13-year-
old daughter, so we would not want anybody
staying up late, making noise. We would want
people coming in our home that we feel safe
with because, obviously, we're living there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like the -- I'd
like it to be known by all that a Bed &
Breakfast use is considered a residential use
and it is based upon the owner's occupancy and
it is incidental to that. So it is a dwelling
sort of thing although you take money in for
the rental of your rooms to transient
boarders, it is not considered a commercial
business by our Code.
Trespassing, roaming around in the
neighborhood, your Bed & Breakfast guests, how
do you address that?
MS. BONAGUP~A: They have to remain on our
property, solely. If they want to sit on a
chair outside on the beach, on the dock,
wherever --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. BONAGURA: On our porch.
MS. BONAGUP3t: -- on our porch, they are
to stay within the confines of our property.
MR. BONAGURA: Go on the dock.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right, I
don't have any further questions at the
moment.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I got a couple of
questions. I think the residents have a valid
point and I've always disagreed about having a
Bed & Breakfast in residential areas because,
like it or not, it's a business and you know
it could be -- you two folks could be very
well-meaning people and very upstanding
citizens, but Billy Bob could come in and open
up a Bed & Breakfast, okay, and he could have
parties all night long and it would just make
a huge problem for the Town and -- I don't say
it's going to happen here, but I can
understand why the residents have some
trepidation. Certainly on a private road
where I don't think you could get two cars,
you know, one way or the other. I think you
have a hard time getting two cars down that
right-of-way although I know the right-of-way
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
is wide enough, it's not built wide enough.
Although the Town says you can have, and
you meet all the criteria for a Special
Exception, you know, who am I to stand in the
way? And your assurance, while comforting,
they're not binding. You could sell the house
tomorrow, another Bed & Breakfast could come
in, another person could ask for a Bed &
Breakfast, and it would be a little easier for
them to get if it's already existed.
I notice that we turned you down for an
accessory apartment and I know the law has
changed for an accessory apartment.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not yet. Not yet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, soon it will
change and, you know, you might want to look
into that.
MS. BONAGURA: Well, we have been looking
into that for the last two years and it hasn't
changed as to that and that's why we're
pursuing this avenue also.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. BONAGURA: So we're
I see.
trying to do
everything legally. We're not building any
illegal basement apartments. We're not
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
building any -- we're not renting the
apartment illegally. We're not doing anything
behind anybody's back.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. BONAGURA: We're coming to the Town
legally to do everything the proper way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Well, again, I
think you meet the criteria, quite honestly.
You know, you have the rooms, they're all set.
You have the square footage. I saw a ladder
in one of the places so they can get out, I'm
sure all the stuff for fire, smoke detectors.
Those are all the things that concern a Bed &
Breakfast. So I was kind of looking if maybe
you might want to go towards the apartment
thing, but maybe not.
MS. BONAGURA: Well, we'll try everything
possible.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I see that. I was
on the Board then.
MS. BONAGURA: I know. I remember you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. Okay, that's all
I have.
MS. BONAGURZ: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to state
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
two things. Of course, you know you can't
have both. So if that goes through and you
choose to modify this and bring your family
members home like you've been trying to do.
Secondly, and we may have told you this during
the prior hearings, but this Board does have
the right to pull these permits, okay, and we
would do that by the Board's own motion and a
public hearing just as we're having now and
hear testimony and then make a decision based
upon that situation. Okay.
I have to tell you, in the history of the
period of time I've been on the Board that's
only happened once, okay, and it did not
involve either a Bed & Breakfast or an
accessory apartment; however, a similar type
of use but more commercial.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me comment on that,
please. Also it involved a lot of heartache,
a lot of misery, okay, I mean from a
neighborhood that was listening to loud music,
people parking all over the place, you know,
and so that one particular instance we did,
but what led up to it is I believe what your
neighbors are concerned about.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
You know, you have to get from one place
to the other. Yeah, we could pull the permit.
We'd pull the permit after you had 50
sleepless nights, you know, of somebody being
irresponsible. Although I'm not saying you
are, I understand their concerns. Okay,
that's -- I wanted to point that out.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One of the things
that's easier to decide is when you have a
large scale Victorian house on the Main Road,
B&Bs in those locations tend to be a little
bit easier to decide, but Jim's right, we have
very specific criteria in the Special
Exception permit. You go down the list and if
those are met, the Code permits this use on
residential property.
We have a precedent on Lilac Lane in
Nassau Farms of a B&B on a private dirt road,
not as far down the road as where you are,
where we conditioned that Special Exception by
requiring the owners of the B&B to maintain
the road, fill in potholes and so on. All
right. In addition, we have the right to put
any conditions we want on here with this
application and we often do, relative to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
issues of safety, not backing out onto the
street, a whole range of things that we can
do. Pull-down ladders, what Jim was referring
to, smoke detectors and things like that. We
also have the right to put conditions -- C&Rs,
Covenants & Restrictions, on this and if this
Board so chose to do so, we could restrict the
B&B use to you as owners and revoke it should
you sell your property.
Okay, it doesn't have to run with the
land.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It doesn't.
Yeah. So, you
know, just so people are aware
this as a respectable business
was happy with the noise level
that if you ran
and everyone
and the traffic
and so on and so forth and then you sold your
property, there's no more B&B there. Okay, so
that's something to be aware of. You would
not be selling your house with a Bed &
Breakfast use.
MS. BONAGURA: Okay. It's not our
intention to (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, at this
point, I'd like to open this up to public
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
comment and see if anyone here would like to
address the Board. Please come forward and
use the microphone and state your name.
MR. COSTELLO: My name is John Costello.
I am a principal on one of the single-family
residences on Holbrook, 750 Holbrook Lane.
We have a single-family house. As you
have made note of, that is a very narrow road.
Many a times I've gone down there, I have to
pull off the side in order to allow any other
car to get by. There could be a very
dangerous situation if a fire engine had to
get down there. The car would either have to
back up or an ambulance or something. You'd
have to move somewhere, you'd have to go on a
lawn in order to be able to get out of the
way.
The safety issues are certainly a
concern. I have other reservations on this
property. The increased traffic is going to a
considerable increase in traffic. If I was
going to stay at any Bed & Breakfast anywhere
in this country, I'm going to go in and out
and go see what's going on in the town. I'm
going to go entertain myself. I'm going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
restaurants. I'm going go out and see the
wineries. I'm going to go in and out. There
will be a considerable increase in traffic on
Holbrook Lane.
You also noted there is no cul-de-sac or
turnaround at the end of the road. When I go
down to the end of the road just to look at
any portion of that, I have to go into someone
else's driveway,
order to go 180
property at 750,
back out onto the road in
degrees and come back out. My
I also have to back out onto
the road. I don't have a turnaround. It is
not a large house. It's a very small house.
Again, you want to be cautious on that road.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: John, just so you're
aware of it, we don't allow any backing out.
That's one of the restrictions, okay, they
have to turn around on site.
MR. COSTELLO: Um-hmm. The fact of the
matter is there's several properties there
that back out. I can tell you that, including
me.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. COSTELLO: That is not my primary
residence, but it is a small single-family
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
residential house.
There are other concerns by being a dead
end and if a fire engine came down there, let
me tell you, or an emergency vehicle and that
will happen, it will be difficult. It will
present another problem. So the increase in
traffic is just compounding something that
should not be compounded. I hope that this
Board consider this carefully. I'm not
opposed to people trying to make a living, but
I do not want to detriment the other property
owners on it because the Bed & Breakfast may,
may increase the value of that property, but
it may, may decrease the value of everybody
else's property.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, I have a question.
How long have you owned property down there?
MR. COSTELLO: About two years now.
MEMBER HOP~NING:
MR. COSTELL0:
MEMBER HORNING:
Pardon me, 20?
Two years.
Two years and you're not
adjacent to -- you're on the same side --
MR. COSTELLO: On the same side on the
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bay on the Creek side, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: One lot down.
MR. COSTELLO: Two doors down.
MEMBER HORNING: Two doors, right. Okay,
how many parcels are serviced by that --
MR. COSTELLO: That road?
MEMBER HORNING: That road.
MR. COSTELLO: I believe it's
approximately 15-16.
MEMBER HORNING: That many? It doesn't
look that way on the map.
MS. BONAGURA: I believe it's 11.
MEMBER HORNING: 9 or 10.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 11, 11 or 12.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay and are they all
developed? I'm asking the gentleman here.
MR. COSTELLO: I believe they are, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you,
Mr. Costello.
MR. COSTELLO:
MS. TONNESSEN:
same issue, but
You're welcome.
I will because I'm on the
first of all I ask for these
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MS. TONNESSEN: I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Please state your
name and --
MS. TONNESSEN: Okay, my name is Lynn
Tonnessen. I live on Holbrook Lane. I've
lived there for 8 years. I'm very upset about
being in this position because I am not here
to bother my neighbors with issues like that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name for us?
MS. TONNESSEN: Okay, it's -- I'm very
nervous, I'm sorry. Lynn, L-Y-N-N --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's okay, take
your time.
MS. TONNESSEN: -- Tonnessen, T-O-N-N-E-
S-S-E-N. I live at 505 Holbrook Lane.
MEMBER HORNING: 505, okay.
MS. TONNESSEN: I'm the house on the
corner.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. TONNESSEN: The road issue, just to
state that again, is a road that has needed a
lot of maintenance and the few of us who live
there year-round, four families only, we've
been very lucky cause Mr. Pulaski has been
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
taking care of it himself for the last few
years. Before that, apparently the different
people on the road would get together and take
care of what they needed as they need it.
It's not been a very sort of neighborly kind
of situation without a formal group or
association.
So anyway, I hate to be doing this. The
house is very appropriate in and of itself to
be a B&B. I have been inside it because it
has been for sale for about at least two years
and it is still on the market for sale. So
they've had many open houses there and I've
been there. What I did this morning was take
pictures from around the neighborhood so that
you can see the roads and it is not just the
fact that Holbrook Lane is 10-foot wide. I
was out there with a tape measure this
morning. It has to do with how you access
Holbrook Lane. You have to go up Cox Neck,
which then turns into West Mill and you make a
right onto Miller. At this point, Miller is
38-foot wide and you then dive down a little
rat hole of trees into the beautiful
neighborhood. You go from a 38-foot wide
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
street to a 10-foot wide lane and it is blind
and it goes down a hill and it goes up. If
you're coming in at night it goes down so far
that you won't even see a car with headlights
on it at a certain point. You have to pause
and wait to see the lights coming up this
little slope. It's a seriously dangerous
intersection and the only reason there hasn't
been an accident is because the people that
are there, live there and know this about it.
So anyone coming in to stay at a B&B and
spending $300-400-500.00, whatever they're
spending, they're going to think that they own
this quaint little road and then there's
another issue when you go to the bottom of the
hill and you make the right onto Holbrook
Lane, that becomes an issue in the winter
because you cannot drive off Holbrook Lane in
the winter with any snow on the ground without
4-wheel drive, which I don't have. So if
there's even a hint of snow I park my car over
on Jackson's Landing with the permission of
the people in front of whose home I park it
and I walk through the backyard and I drag my
groceries on a rope through the backyard
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
because I don't want to be the one that gets
stuck on that egress and slides into the woods
because if you go up Holbrook, make the right
on Miller, you go right into the neighborhood
called Hideaway Estates and there's about 50
homes back there with kids and pets and this
and that and if I get my car stuck on that
little causeway, you know, they're in trouble.
They won't get to work, they won't get an
emergency vehicle. They'll do nothing,
they'll just wait until I get myself towed out
of there. So one of my neighbors back there,
she's driven me many a time, all winter long,
when I can't access the car -- access my car
to the house.
I have photographs of everything. You'll
notice that the writing is shaky cause I'm
very unnerved by doing this. I do not want to
be here, but I feel I have to be here for this
issue and this issue only. Personally, I
don't care about a B&B, I don't. Their home
is across the street from me and down a bit.
Would I be bothered by it? No. Do I worry
about people walking around? I'm not that
person. But, the safety issue, if there's any
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
way that they can address and I don't know how
you change the road, it's not even a Town
road. I believe Holbrook is a County road. I
think it's technically owned by the County,
this is what I had been told. It's also --
there's all kinds of, as happens here a lot,
there's all kinds of issues of whose road it
is and Wicks Road, what the name of it is and
all kinds of stuff like that.
So if you'd care to look at any photos
here, I hope they can make some sort of sense,
but that's my only issue. The house would be
a perfect B&B, but if they can address the
safety issue, I don't (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very
much.
Is there anyone else here, please come
and address the Board. Just so you're all
aware of this while these folks are coming to
address us, every Board member has visited the
site whether it was an interior inspection or
not, we are all familiar with the road. We've
all been there and observed firsthand the
difficulties of getting in and out of that
area.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's really scary.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, that's why the
Board makes site inspections because what you
see on paper and what you see in the real
world are often two rather different set of
circumstances. You can't really tell the
kinds of things you were talking about unless
you go there.
Please go ahead and state your name,
please, and spell it.
MS. HARPELL: Yes, my name is Lynn
Harpell. I live at 670 Holbrook Lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And would you spell
it, please?
MS. HARPELL: H-A-R-P-E-L-L.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Lynn?
MS. HARPELL: Lynn. The other Lynn.
I can't add too much more to what
everybody else has said prior to this, but I
am concerned, too, and I just do want to note
that Lynn mentioned Paul Pilaski taking care
of our road. Well, yes he has, however, we
have -- I've been there 16 years and before
Paul and even with Paul there, we do all chip
in to pay for the maintenance of this road,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
which amazingly gets potholes in it quite
quickly to our dismay, but I am concerned
about the added traffic as well.
So that's about all I have to add.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
Sir?
MR. KOBRIN: My name is Joe Kobrin and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Spell that, please.
MR. KOBRIN: -- I, too, live at 670
Holbrook Lane. K-O-B-R-I-N.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: K-O-B-R-I-N?
MR. KOBRIN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Mr. Kobrin,
please go on.
MR. KOBRIN: I too have very little to
add to what's already been said, except for
the fact that for example this winter when we
had the terrible snowstorm that we had and
somebody had to go out and get somebody to
plow the road. It was me who had to do it and
out of all my neighbors, only Lynn chipped in
with me to pay for it.
Now, John wasn't there at the time so I
understood that, but Anthony was there and
knew I was paying to have to the road cleaned
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
and never offered to pay for anything and I
asked everybody in the area who was living on
the road at the time to chip in with me.
There was only $150.00 altogether and when
nobody volunteered I just let it go, but I
can't continually pay for it and now if we
have a Bed & Breakfast there and there's more
damage and more problems and more cleaning
that needs to be done, I certainly can't pay
for it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
tell us about how much it
road plowed?
MR. KOBRIN: Well,
cost me $150.00. I got
reasonable.
Mr. Kobrin can you
cost to have the
last winter it only
somebody who was very
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. KOBRIN: And they plowed the road,
but --
MEMBER HORNING: Could you describe the
extent of the plowing in terms of footage, was
it the entire --
MR. KOBRIN: Well, he plowed all of
Holbrook Lane from -- right from Mill Road all
the way down and around --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
MR. KOBRIN: Right
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. KOBRIN:
to the end.
(Inaudible).
Well, that doesn't
Wicks Road, too, or just
The whole road all the way
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Hold on Holbrook
Lane and then you make the turn and what's
that?
MR. KOBRIN: Well, as far as I know it's
all Holbrook Lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All Holbrook, okay.
MEMBER HORNING: It's called Wicks I
think on this.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's called Wicks,
it's the same --
MR. KOBRIN: I'm right at the corner and
it's 670 Holbrook Lane and it's right at the
turn.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. KOBRIN: So it's all Holbrook Lane
and he plowed the whole thing from beginning
to end and it was very reasonable and -- but
other than Lynn, nobody chipped in with us to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
pay for it.
MS. BONAGURA: But I don't remember you
knocking on our door asking --
MR. KOBRIN: I didn't. I didn't.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, wait. I'm
sorry.
MR. KOBRIN: I didn't knock on your door,
but Anthony came up to me and thanked me for
having it done. So he knew somebody was
paying for it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on.
Individuals have
each other.
MR. KOBRIN:
to address the Board and not
Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so --
MR. KOBRIN: I mean everybody knew I paid
for it and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Okay.
MR. KOBRIN: -- I didn't go begging
everybody for $150.00, but everybody knew and
I expected --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. KOBRIN: -- like
Okay.
the old days when we
first moved in there, everybody was out there
to chip in and help out and it's not like that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
now and as I say me and Lynn paid for it and
Lynn paid too, but that was it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. KOBRIN: I can't support somebody
else's Bed & Breakfast down the road by
maintaining the road that nobody helps me
with.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, sir.
Is there anyone else in the audience
who'd like to address this application?
Please come forward.
MR. FARRELL: Hi.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hi.
MR. FARRELL: This isn't on is it? It
is. Okay. Can you hear me?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA~: Yeah.
MR. FARRELL: Joe Farrell and I live at
1225 Jackson Landing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your last name, sir?
MR. FARRELL: F, as in Frank, A-R-R-E-L-
L.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. FARRELL: I just came to listen, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
some people spoke and I have just a few points
to bring up.
I'd like to reiterate this young lady's
point. On that road, you've all been there
where it kind of comes up and I don't know if
you're aware of the slope of the road and the
people who live on that corner, I think that's
Raccoon where it hits on the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We know where
you're talking about.
MR. FARRELL: Okay, we've already had
problems. What happens as people come up that
hill they kind of gun it to get some speed to
get up there and as they come up cars on
Jackson Landing are going wide because there
are cars coming this way on Miller Road. So
you have to kind of get in the way and we've
had near misses already and we've had young
kids and the people on Jackson Landing who
maintain the road we've talked about putting a
bump there, putting a stop sign, but we can't
agree on anything and we don't know if we're
authorized to put a stop sign for the people
coming up the hill if they'll -- so that is an
issue. That is something that's already been
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
on our plates and we probably should have put
a speed bump there, but again we maintain that
side of the road and whether the people down
in that other area behind us if that would
cause friction. So it wasn't done and the way
I came to terms with it is that it's going to
take something, there's going to be an
accident and at that point then we'll probably
act, but no one's really being proactive on
it. That's number one.
The second part is the people of Jackson
Landing, which is the road that abuts Miller,
we maintain Miller Road and we maintain
Jackson Landing. Most people, they assume
that people come up Cox Neck and West Mill and
then turn onto Miller. It doesn't happen that
way. They come up through Cox Neck. We have
the tower there, Dr. Jackson's tower. Have
you ever seen that? It looks like a
lighthouse. So we get a majority of the
traffic. People don't go Miller Road, they
come up through Jackson Landing.
So I don't know if they've done a
business study or estimate how much business
they've be generating and how much more
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
traffic that will be generating,
people of Jackson Landing,
than the people that live
maintain that whole road.
but the
and we're smaller
in the back, we
We pay for it, we
plow it. It's just another, you know, it's
not just the one road where they live, but it
also impacts the people on Jackson Landing as
well.
So those are the two things, the safety
issue and then the maintaining of the road,
you know, that part of it. If we're going to
see possibly a bump of 40 percent more traffic
on the road, again based on maybe a business
plan, well that's going to be more wear and
tear that the people of Jackson Landing will
have to pay to repair, to maintain for
insurance reasons and the same thing on Miller
Road. We'll be -- we also repair that as
well, both sides. Just the people of Jackson
Landing that are not associated. So those are
just some things there.
Thanks very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
All right, let me ask you a couple of
questions, Mr. and Mrs. Bonagura, at this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
point. You've heard your neighbor's concerns.
I'm sure because you have a child you're
concerned equally about safety in the area.
When we were up there, there was a jogger on
the road. We had to stop, wait for that
person to get off to the side and so on. So
we're aware of the difficulty in traversing
the area in general.
I'm asking these questions with an open
mind and I just want to get your reaction to
them. It's not in my mind it isn't meant to
say yes or no, but let's look at the
possibility of, as a business expense, you're
being prepared to accept the responsibility
for maintaining that road in terms of filling
potholes and for plowing it in the winter.
How do you feel about that?
MR. BONAGURA: It wouldn't be a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You feel you'd
generate enough income to compensate for the
cost of --
MR. BONAGURA: We wouldn't (inaudible) to
say (inaudible) for us to pay 100 percent of
it, but we'd pay more than the 1/10 or 10
percent of it. We would pay say half of it.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, again we --
okay, I'll just make some notes. You're
proposing four bedrooms to be rented out.
Would you consider reducing the number of
bedrooms to reduce the potential traffic?
MR. BONAGURA: (Inaudible), yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And what would you
be comfortable with instead of four?
MR. BONAGUR3~: Two.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and the last
question I have, since there is a real concern
about snow plowing and so on and so forth, how
would you feel about running this on a
seasonal basis rather than year-round?
MS. BONAGURA: (Inaudible), this way we
don't have that issue with plowing (inaudible)
neighbors because we didn't know about that.
I didn't -- at least I did not know about that
plowing issue. I would have been more than
willing to participate. As a matter of fact,
Anthony helped (inaudible) when his car was
So I find that to be quite
stuck in the snow.
comical.
MR. BONAGUP~A: (Inaudible) ski resort, I
mean, it's not (inaudible) people coming to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the area in the winter. It's summer that they
want to come. [Not at microphone.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why I'm
asking about the possibility.
MS. BONAGUP~A: Yes. Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Particularly for
those who are concerned about the added safety
problems of inclement weather --
MR. BONAGUP3%: [Not at microphone and
speaking while Chairperson is also speaking.]
(Inaudible) that wouldn't be a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the people who
live there year-round and that has a different
impact than people who live there seasonally
and so on.
MS. BONAGURA: Adding that restriction
would be fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Does anybody
else on the Board have any questions?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, you raised some
particular issues with the Bonaguras. I think
maybe what they should do is define what they
construe to be seasonal in a letter to us so
that we know what we are exactly discussing.
I have to tell you when you discuss
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
seasonal with me this Board has made decisions
in New Suffolk, the old Pugsley application
which goes back to the 80s, and seasonal I
can't remember exactly what that was, but a
seasonal issue would probably be no later than
October 31st and no earlier than April 1st,
which would pretty much shut everything down
for the winter. Okay. So that's my
particular opinion.
MS. BONAGURA:
me.
Okay, that sounds fine to
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, does it, okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Thanksgiving is
dangerous out in those parts?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Well, you never
know when it's going to snow, but I mean you
know seasonal is water on to water off and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's usually when --
in my particular opinion, from a seasonal
standpoint, the minute the pumpkins are over,
that's pretty much the way everything kind of
goes out here for a while. That doesn't mean
people don't come out in November --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't know about
that.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
from a zoning standpoint,
done it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I'm talking about
the way we've always
We're going to
define this on the basis of fruit? Pumpkins.
MEMBER HORNING: I think December 1st to
April 1st, something like that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think we've --
hold on, let me do this. In the interest of
recognizing that we've taken a great deal of
testimony here and we're behind in schedule
relative to hearing other applicants, let me
just make sure that anyone -- if there's
anyone on the Board or in the audience who has
anything to say that has not already been
said, okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd just like to say
that, I mean, I think you meet the whole
criteria, okay, and the Town has already
considered all the traffic and this just
happens to be on the low end of what the Town
considers, I think. I just wanted to put that
in there for the record.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Jim.
All right, any other comments?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
122
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
information.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
-- provide us with
You have to
understand I was not referring to seasonal in
reference to fruit, I was defining seasonal in
reference to heating, okay, and that is the
reason (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How about we let
the Bonaguras decide what seasonal means?
We're going to see that information. I
think we've covered pretty much all bases at
this point.
Do you have one more concluding comment?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just really want to
stress the lack of -- I'm not saying this is a
reason to deny them, but the lack of
visibility in getting on these roads and
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MEMBER HORNING: I'll make one. I would
consider a B&B seasonal to be somewhere
between December 1st and April 1st, that's my
vision of what closing for the winter would be
like.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I think the
Bonaguras can --
MEMBER HORNING: I just mention that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
making turns, something has to be addressed
there, if there are going to be people coming
and going who do not live there and do not
understand what the problems are. I don't
know how it can be addressed without
encroaching upon other people's property and
cutting shrubs or whatever, but somehow,
somehow. We know that we have to pause and
wait before we go down, these other people
will not.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask one
other question. Thank you, ma'am.
Can you please, when you submit to us
your definition of seasonal, your willingness
to do two bedrooms, your willingness to
participate at least by 50 percent of the cost
for the maintenance of the road, would you
also please consider and suggest to us in this
letter how you as members of the neighborhood
would direct your guests to be extremely aware
of the caution that they have to take in
coming onto this property and being respectful
of the neighbors and the potential for traffic
problems and visibility and so on? Please let
us know in a letter how you could do something
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
to mitigate their unawareness of this problem.
That's it. All right, hearing no further
comments, I'd like to make a motion to adjourn
this hearing subject to receipt of additional
information from the Bonaguras as stated in
the record.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. The only
thing I would like to say is we would like to
receive that letter no later than two weeks
from this date.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Anyone have a calendar?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Okay, that's fine.
Today's the 20tn, we
don't have anymore than 31 days, so it's going
to be around the 3rd, 4th, or 5tn of June.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we're going to
adjourn subject to receipt of letter. By the
way, that letter will be part of public
record. So if any of the neighbors here would
like to --
BOARD SECRETARY: June 3.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It'll be June 3.
Thank you, Vicki.
If any of the neighbors would like to
call the office to receive a copy of that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
letter, you are welcome to do so, all right,
and we are making available to the Bonaguras,
just pop into the office, copies of any
correspondence we have in our record from
neighbors of their concerns. That way you can
think it through and provide us with as much
information as possible. All right. I don't
believe there's any need to take additional
testimony. I think the issues are very
clearly defined by everyone, so we will --
We have a motion, we have a second, we have a
date for submission of this letter.
All in favor?
COLLECTIVE: Aye.
UNKNOWN: So it's closed?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Uh, it was --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Adjourned.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's -- it's
closed. It's closed, sorry. Well, adjourned
subject to receipt.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
BOARD SECRETARY:
But --
It's closed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're right,
closed. I'm sorry, Jim. Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it's closed.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's closed subject
to receipt of this letter from the Bonaguras.
Thank you for the correction.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6372 - Meskouris
(P.M.V. Family LLC
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit to construct new single-family
dwelling, and the Building Inspector's
September 3, 2009, Updated February 4, 2010
Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed new
single family dwelling, exceeding maximum lot
coverage of 20% (buildable area); at 530 Sound
Beach Dr., (adj. to Long Island Sound)
Mattituck, NY. SCTM#1000-99-1-12.1. Zone:
R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, is there
someone here to address that application?
Please come forward and state your name and
spell it, please.
MR. MESKOURIS: Hi, James Meskouris, M-E-
S-K-O-U-R-I-S.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: James. Thank you,
Mr. Meskouris. What would you like to tell
us?
MR. MESKOURIS: Well, we want to build
this house -- we're building a house for our
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
children and we'd like to get the size of the
house that we have now, just normal four-
bedroom house, and we do exceed the limit by 9
percent even though the property is much
larger, but a lot of the other part of these
properties are not buildable because of the
Sound and the wetland and the beach. We'd
like to keep the height as low as possible in
keeping with any of the height limits
(inaudible).
That's about it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're proposing
this house on pilings, yes?
MR. MESKOURIS: Yes, we have no choice.
We have to build on pilings.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How high above grade
will it be, Jim?
MR. MESKOURIS: I would say the first
level to the grade would be probably about 6
feet, maybe 7, and we plan to put the bedrooms
on the second floor. One bedroom on the
first, three on the second floor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Frank gave me the
high sign in the back. I think he wanted to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISNL~N: Please come on up,
Frank, to the microphone.
MR. NOTARO: Frank Notaro, architect for
the Meskouris.
We've measured 31.4 inches very slightly
to the ridge of the proposed dwelling.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the pilings?
MR. NOTARO:
drawing, 8/4.
That's including
Correct. That's on the
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: One of the concerns
that the Board members have had -- one or two
of the Board members have had is the inability
to get on the site and really understand it.
Okay, we realize it's relatively flat. We
were just wondering if, I realize you don't
have a building permit, if you could run a
machine down just to kind of go up to the --
not quite to the CZM line, but at least up to
it so that people could walk up there and see
it. I don't know if it's done with a lawn
mower or a brush hog or whatever you're doing
MR. MESKOURIS: Well, most the growth
there are wild rose bushes so --
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MESKOURIS: -- it's kind of loaded
with Poison Ivy.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know, that's one of
the other concerns.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why you
didn't get us traipsing through it.
MR. MESKOURIS: The markings are there
for the width of the property to show from my
neighbor, (inaudible), and you could see the
flag, east of the flag. It's actually about
15 feet off the trees so you could see the
width of the property. There used to be a
deck on the property (inaudible) deck and
that's about the
the (inaudible).
and beach grass.
only clear area except for
I mean it's just rose bushes
Most of the beach grass is
way up top toward the
tide mark.
Tell me what you need me to do.
me to cut a path or something or --
-- closest to the high
You need
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: That is part of the
dilemma. I mean I had to go and trespass on
your neighbor's property to have even a remote
idea. I mean sure you can get the sense of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the width -- of the length of it rather, the
width is easy to see from the road, but you
don't understand the topography. You don't
understand the views to the neighbors.
There's a lot of things that are very hard to
figure out when you can't really access a
property. Sometimes wooded properties you can
walk on, you know, you can walk through the
trees and a little bit of brarable and put your
socks up so that the ticks don't get ahold of
you, but, I think Jerry's right, there are
instances and you're not the only one, there
are instances when people try and stake out
unimproved lots and create a path so that we
can actually see where the stakes are and
things like that. It really is helpful.
Did you want to have that done?
MR. MESKOURIS: We'll create a path down
the center of the property?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Probably, yeah,
that would be fine.
MR. MESKOURIS: From the street all the
way to where the beach grass is.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, no. I don't think
we need that.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, no, no.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just to the Coastal
Hazard Zone.
MR. MESKOURIS: Oh, okay (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, just to there
because you're not going to be building beyond
that. So we --
MR. MESKOURIS: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: -- only need to see
the building envelope.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It probably can be
done with a brush hog, which is that rotary
mower behind a tractor.
MR. MESKOURIS: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A good sized tractor,
so that would be my suggestion.
MR. MESKOURIS: So just cut it right down
to the sand.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The sand.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. So we can
walk on it.
MR. MESKOURIS: All right.
MR. NOTARO: He's not going to get into
trouble with any other authority of the Town?
MEMBER DINIZIO: He might.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
through the neighbor's?
the neighbor there --
Well, how about access
Are you familiar with
MR. MESKOURIS:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. MESKOURIS: --
I don't really --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
access
MR.
MESKOURIS:
well --
-- who had the deck?
I mean I know her, but
You can't really
I think we're better off
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq:
from the neighbor's.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
-- the property
Okay.
So that's why I was
suggesting other than a bulldozer, a brush hog
and not going too far with it, just the point
of --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just a foot path is
all we need.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not suggesting
any particular farmer, but there is one on the
top of the block who is very good at doing
those things and that's Mr. Cooper. He's
cleaned our Park District beaches for years
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
and he does them with --
MR. MESKOURIS: He has that machine? I
don't even know.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, he's got every
machine known to man.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, but you may
want to mention it to the Trustees that you're
just going to create a little path down there
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: At our request.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- at our request.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, there is the
LWRP letter. Are you familiar with that
letter regarding the property and that it's
consistent with the LWRP, the project; have
you gotten a copy of that?
MR. MESKOURIS: I haven't seen it. No,
have not.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, it
recommends to the Board some conditions that
may be imposed on this application and just
another thing that it states that you may
establish a 4-foot wide access path to the
water body. Okay, so the way I read that,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
you're fearful of getting in trouble,
certainly you could, I would suggest possibly
make a 4-foot wide access path to that area
where the deck used to be. That seems, by
this photograph to be very clear and if the
Board was able to stand in that location, we'd
be able to get a good idea what the building
envelope would be like.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
MR. MESKOURIS: Well, wouldn't
(inaudible) to take it right to the Coastal
Erosion, like back off from that a little bit?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, you could stake
that out.
MR. MESKOURIS: Cause that deck is not
that -- as far back towards the water.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, it doesn't have to
go to the water, just to your --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, no.
MR. MESKOURIS: Like if we did the 4-foot
wide path --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, as long as we
could see the stakes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just a path.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Get in there and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
stake it and we can see them, that's all we
need.
MR. MESKOURIS: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The other thing I
wanted to ask you, which is a little more
substantive than this, at 29 percent for a
four-bedroom house, is there any way you can
see of reducing that percentage of lot
coverage?
MR. MESKOURIS: Well, (inaudible) normal
house with four-bedrooms (inaudible)
unrealistic (inaudible). I'd like to have the
-- we have to put our heating system now on
the first floor -- on the second floor and
that takes up a lot of space and we have no
basement. (Inaudible) laundry room will also
have to go -- it takes up additional space and
I was hoping, again, to have at least a
minimum of four bedrooms.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have a
conforming building envelope that you're
working with. The only variance is for lot
coverage. So I mean all your setbacks are
conforming as proposed.
MR. NOTARO: I think we're talking about
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
maybe 400 square feet difference,
approximately.
The rooms that were laid out are really
not excessive in terms of size. I've done a
number of excessive size homes out here.
Yeah, I mean they might be able to be tweaked
a little bit to get, you know, still maintain
the four bedrooms.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Over two-thirds of
this parcel is non-buildable. So I think
that's a little bit of a hardship there.
MEMBER HORNING: Can I ask what the
proposed setback from the road is, Sound
Beach, is it 44 feet that you have on there?
It's hard for me to tell --
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, 44 feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Is that what the --
MR. NOTARO: Sure, yup.
MEMBER HORNING: And it's going to be,
obviously by the picture and the survey here,
more closer to the water than the adjacent
neighbor on the east. Is the same true for
the adjacent neighbor on the west? Is it
forward to the water from that location also?
MR. NOTARO: When we eyeballed that, they
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have kind of an overhang deck area. I think
we're just maybe a little bit beyond that.
I mean they have a patio that has
fixed porch covering on it. I don't
-- I think that constitutes lot
You know,
kind of a
know what
coverage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
covering.
MEMBER HORNING:
the house?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
of the house.
Yeah, it's a pipe
Is that on the side of
No, it's on the back
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's on the back.
MEMBER HORNING: When they were
abandoning -- I visited that lady yesterday.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Was she nice?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, very nice lady,
but she -- I will express her concern because
I urged her to come here as an adjacent
neighbor. Her concern is that she's in
agreement to having a new neighbor house
there, but her concern was that it was going
to be pushed so close to the water that it
would somehow impact her seascapes or
whatever, her
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views from her property.
MR. NOTARO: I mean that's a valid
comment by her, but I think the actual deck on
the proposed dwelling may be a little further
out than her property, you know, if you
include her covered deck. Again, I haven't
been physically there, so --
MEMBER HORNING: What is the minimum
setback in that location then from the --
MR. NOTARO: From the front road?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, what is the code-
required --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 35.
MEMBER HORNING: 35 and you're at 44.
MR. NOTARO: Well, we've got a problem
with cesspools.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They have to put
all the septic in there.
MR. NOTARO: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He's got to put
about a thousand pools in there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER HORNING:
questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
It's tight.
I have no other
I have another
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
question. I have a question regarding this
form, ZBA application form. Do you have this
with you now?
MR. MESKOURIS: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I'll read you
the question then perhaps you can answer it.
One of the questions was not answered here,
number D. Is there a depression or sloping
elevation near the area of proposed
construction at or below 5 feet above mean sea
level?
MR. NOTARO: Well, if you look on the
survey and I think John Metzger took his
contours based upon the other properties, you
know, I think he had something to go on with
the property that's existing to the east, it's
a pretty consistent drop from the road. I
mean really you have an 8-foot contour and
towards -- getting towards the rear of this
house it goes to 10.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: It doesn't show any kind of
massive change.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the answer is?
MR. NOTARO: I would say there is no
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
great depression.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. No, I can't
fill out the application for you, you have to
do it.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So that's no and then
the next question (G) Do you or any co-owner
also own other land close to this parcel? Yes
or no question.
MR. NOTARO: Well, how close?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't know.
MR. NOTARO: They own a number of parcels
further west down the road --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't think the
answer would be a detriment if it was yes.
MR. NOTARO: Well,
next door they also own.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
next door?
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MR. MESKOURIS: Yes.
the little bungalow
So you own the house
To the east.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. If yes, please
label the proximity of your land. So that
would be next door. So perhaps you can fill
out this application and submit it.
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MR. NOTARO: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Specifically, answer
D, which was with respect to the 5 feet above
sea level and G with respect to the co-owner.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anything else?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What were the
numbers of those --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: D and G.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Numbers D and G?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Letters, yeah letters.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else in the
audience that would like to address this
application?
All right, hearing no further comments,
I'd like to make a motion to close this
hearing subject to receipt of a completed
application form relative to letters D and G,
reserve decision for a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And also the
creation of a footpath with stakes so that we
can have a -- look at it before we make a
decision, which will be --
MR. MESKOURIS: I'm going to start the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
footpath from the road go to the area of the
old deck and then continue past the old deck
to the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Erosion Hazard Line.
To the Coastal
MR. NOTARO: If I may suggest, if we did
a central path to where the house is going and
just detoured left and right so we can stake
out --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's a great idea.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Perfect.
MR. NOTARO: -- the corners (inaudible)
water. We won't take the roots out.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Perfect, just down
to grade and that's it.
MR. NOTARO: The poison ivy will grow
back. You know so it'll be like an H.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It could be what's
ever convenient, it doesn't have to be a
straight line.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All we need to see
is --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Don't take down any
trees.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we just need
to see it. We need to be able to get to it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You don't have to nuke
the site, you just need to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's get a date by
when we know this is going to be done. What's
reasonable, two weeks?
MR. MESKOURIS: Not even. I'll go talk
to Cooper and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So within a week?
MR. MESKOURIS: Yeah, by next week.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Let us know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: How about, Mr.
Meskouris, could we ask you to please call the
office and let the office know when it's done
and then Vicki will notify the Board members,
those of us who want to go down, have another
look, and to come in and take a look at your
completed application. So moved.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I did the second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6264 - Henry Traendly
and Barbara Cadwallader
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances (in this pending
subdivision application) under Zoning Code
Section 280-14, Bulk Schedule Attachment 3;
concerning a proposed lot width of less than
150 feet for the applicant's westerly parcel
(CTM 1000-31-14-11), and lot area containing
less than the code-required minimum 40,000
square feet of buildable land for each CTM
1000-31-14-11 and CTM 1000-31-14-12 adjacent
land owned by Mike and Viola Niamonitakis.
Location of Property: 13000 Main Road (and
13220 Main Road), East Marion (adj. to
Gardiners Bay, a/k/a Orient Harbor, Dam Pond
Inlet).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, state your
name for the record, please.
MR. PASCA: Anthony Pasca, Esseks, Hefter
and Angel, 108 East Main Street, Riverhead,
for the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. PASCA: With me
Okay, Mr. Pasca.
today, also is Henry
Traendly, he's one of the applicants, and Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
John Nichols has submitted some, as you know,
has submitted some, as you know, submitted
some letter in support of our application.
They're here to answer questions, but I'm
going to try to do the presentation and give
you the reasons for the variances.
I've also submitted, which I know you
already have, a kind of a large memo and
exhibit packet. I wanted you to have
everything in one spot. This is going on --
this application dates back in many ways
several years and a lot of different papers
have been generated. We wanted to kind of put
everything down in one place so that you
didn't have to turn back and forth between a
lot of different papers.
I assume that at least three of you are
pretty well familiar with the application.
There are a couple of new faces on the Board
and I'm just going to give a brief background,
but of course if you have any questions about
specifics, we'd be happy to talk about it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Before you start, let
me start with that. Okay, you heard what I
said to Mr. Meskouris. I get poison ivy like
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
you won't believe. We really need to get an
access down to the beach on this property,
okay, and I am not suggesting that you do
anything illegal. I'm suggesting you run the
same type of vehicle down with the brush hog
in the back so that we can get down there. I
have never been down there. One of my
colleagues has informed me that they have
trucked their way down, okay --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was me.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- and I just need to
get down there and whatever you can do. I
also suggest that you mention to the Trustees
that, you know,
path at our --
MR. PASCO:
you're
just making a walking
I see what you're saying.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The normal brush hog
is about that wide. You can get them -- we're
talking about a normal path --
MR. PASCO: You just want a path to the
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- down.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A foot path.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A foot path down to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. PASCO: We're not going to kill
wetlands.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're not going to
kill wetlands and we're going to try and get
down there before the poison ivy grows back,
okay.
MR. PASCO: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that's my
request.
MR. PASCO: All right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry to intrude
on your presentation.
MR. PASCO: It's fine. It's fine, we'll
cut to whatever chase you guys want to cut to.
Mr. Traendly, he'll make the arrangements for
it and we'll just let the Board know as soon
as it's ready and that way you can get down
there before the stuff grows back.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. TRAENDLY: [Not at microphone,
speaking.]
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right. Well,
yeah, I mean you don't even have to go to the
high water mark. As long as we can get down
to some particular cleared area down there. I
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don't want you to cut anything away that you
shouldn't be cutting away. I don't want to
cause any problems for you, other than the
fact that we just need to get down there. I
just never have done it. I didn't want to get
involved in a discussion with the neighbor to
the west to transverse their property in any
way. We just don't normally enter into those
conversations with --
MR. TRAENDLY: [Not at microphone.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Traendly, I'm
sorry, you'll have to come to the microphone
if you're going to say something.
MR. TRAENDLY: If it would make it any
easier for you, I do believe that the neighbor
to the east in lot 12, I'm sure he would
cooperate. As a matter of fact, he called us
to tell us if someone from the Zoning Board
visited them and he was -- he would
essentially say, you know, I'm okay with it as
long as you're going to do it nice and it's
legal and so on. We could be good neighbors
and that would be -- that was the extent of
it. So maybe if that's easier for you --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: At the end of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
hearing, I'm going to drop another bombshell
regarding that neighbor, so -- I mean, I could
drop it now, but I think I'll wait until the
end of that. Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that's the issue,
regarding that neighbor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's just
continue.
MR. PASCO: Okay, you're somewhat
familiar with the property. I understand you
haven't been on it.
You have a survey. We've given you an
aerial property; we've given you a tax map.
You'll note it's 7,087 square feet, 35 feet
wide by about 200 feet long from the Main Road
down to the water. I assume you all are well
familiar with the neighborhood. Unusually,
there's no one defining characteristic.
Certainly that small area that's stretched
south of the Main Road is to me very unusual
for the Town to have these Main Road
properties that also have these beautiful bay
front views, but I'll assume familiarity with
that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
We're sort of focusing on, in terms of
our neighborhood analysis, we're focusing on
12 properties that are in this cluster where
the mainland narrows right before the causeway
and people could argue about what's a
neighborhood and what do you really define it
as and we went in part to Mr. Nichols to try
to help us figure that out and that's what
we've determined is really the study area and
we've charted out for you the different
properties that are within that area and the
sizes and whether they're improved or not,
whether they conform or not, and you're
basically looking at 12 properties. 9 of them
seem to be undersized and nonconforming to lot
area. 8 of them seem to be nonconforming as
to lot width. We can't confirm lot width
without the surveys of all of them, but at
least that's what it appears from the aerials
and tax maps.
This property, we're not in some ways
asking you to create a new lot. This lot
existed long before zoning existed in this
Town, long before '57 and long after '57 and
from '57 until 1997 the property was a single
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
and separate property under your code and what
happened in 1997 was that after Mr. Traendly
was diagnosed with a certain condition they
wanted to take care of some estate planning
for some obvious reasons and an up-island
Garden City attorney inadvertently put the two
properties in common ownership thinking that
they wouldn't be merged because the form of
the names were different and they want on with
their lives for the next 10 years assuming
that they were separate properties and they
got separate tax bills and in 2005 sold one of
the properties, the one that had the house on
it to the east, and were left with this
property and a couple of years later started
the process of getting permits for it.
First, they went to the Building
Department. There was not finding of merger
at that time, two times actually they went to
the Building Department. They went to the
Trustees, went through the Trustee process,
got a wetland permit from the Trustees for a
particular house. Started the process with
this Board, that was appeal #6154 and about
half-way through that appeal that was the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
first bomb that dropped in July of that year.
As you guys were sort of negotiating what the
right setbacks would be, the Building
Department called Mr. Traendly out of the blue
and said, we have a merger problem. That
setback variance was put on hold, it was never
decided, and a few months later that's when
the Town was adopting a new merger law,
demerger law.
Mr. Traendly then filed two applications.
One was the waiver of merger application and
the other was this application and for
whatever reason the waiver of merger
application was done first though they were
filed around the same time and they were
always viewed as different ways to get the
same relief; to re-recognize this lot that
they own that they didn't own the adjacent lot
anymore and to try to allow it to be built
upon again. I'm not here to try to reargue
the waiver of merger issue, that's something
you've already decided. We do have a court
case over it, but it's really not -- it has
nothing to do with this application because
the tests are very different between the two.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
I think that -- to start, let's talk
about the real key difference between the
variance test and the waiver of merger test
and that really is -- your job is to weigh the
benefits to them versus whatever detriments
you perceive to the community and that's
really what differentiates this type of
discretionary process. You either, with the
waiver of merger, you either qualify for it or
you don't, with this, a lot is put in your
lap to make a judgment call as to balancing
these two interests. What is the benefit to
the applicant versus the impacts and many
applications that you see, that I see in my
field, deal with benefits that don't quite
rise to this type of level. The benefit that
we're talking in this case is for a
residential property you really couldn't get a
larger benefit. It's the difference between
the property being buildable or not buildable.
It's not the difference between getting a
better view or getting a little more value to
your property. It's between having your
property have any value and having your
property have no value.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
So you're not going to see a residential
application that has a greater benefit on the
benefit/detriment side of that scale and
that's really the thing that I'm going to ask
you to keep in mind when you're going through
your analysis, you're going through your five
factors, is to keep that in mind that, you
know, unlike many applications this is as
great a benefit as you're going to see.
Let's run through the five factors which,
you know, we've gone through this analysis in
our memo, I'll just do it kind of briefly.
Again, whatever questions you have just
interrupt me. Any bombs you want to drop, go
ahead.
The first factor, of course, what's the
impact on the character of the neighborhood
and, again, in a lot of ways it depends on
what you call the neighborhood and we've tried
to define the neighborhood. We've gotten Mr.
Nichols to look at it and to offer his opinion
on it and his opinion is set forth in a letter
and he feels there is, partly due to the
eclectic nature of this neighborhood, that
there really is no defining feature and there
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
are many undersized lots there already
including the two right to the west that are
virtually indistinguishable from this one and
the fact that it already exists. This lot is
physically present there, we're not going to
be taking another large parcel that looks like
one parcel and cutting it into two. This lot
already exists and it is the last one left in
that stretch, so we put forth that argument
that there really is not going to be a
significant or noticeable impact on the
character of the
Number two,
no alternative.
community.
the alternatives. There is
We've already exhausted the
alternative test trying to get this de-merged.
There's no alternative to getting the build-
ability of this lot back.
Number three is the substantiality of the
variance. I understand mathematically when
you look at a variance it's the one factor
that we can all sort of pick a number on. It
tends to be more objective than subjective and
most people when you talk about variances say
well what's the percentage deviation, is it 50
percent variance, an 80 percent variance, 10
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
percent variance, and that's all well and
good, but this test is not an objective test.
This test is not an objective test. You're
not computers, you're not just plugging
numbers in to see what should happen and all
the case law says you have to consider the
substantiality in context.
You could have a neighborhood of
properties that are one and a half times
generally the size of the minimum zoning. A
10-percent variance in that case could be a
substantial variance. You could have an area
where there are a lot undersized properties
like ours, you know, and you have pretty much
80 percent of the lots that are already
nonconforming, a variance doesn't seem as
substantial in that context as it would be if
you were in a neighborhood where 100 percent
of the lots were conforming. So, you know, we
put the numbers down, we've asked you to
factor that into play and consider that in
context and we think if you do consider it in
context it's really not substantial.
Number four: The
physical/environmental
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conditions. What we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
asking you to keep in mind is that we're just
asking to re-recognize the previously existing
lot. The development of this lot will still
have to undergo three levels of review. It's
going to have to go to the Planning Board,
they're going to get to weigh in on this
It'll have to go back to this board to
determine what the right setbacks are going to
be and resume that application that was put on
hold. You're going to get to weigh in on it,
impose, you know, reasonable conditions to try
to mitigate against any impacts and then when
that's settled, they're going to have to go
back to the Trustees and they're going to get
to weigh in on it and impose whatever
conditions they think are reasonable. So
there are going to be many opportunities to
make sure that the development of this lot
won't have an impact, a serious adverse
impact, on the physical or environmental
conditions.
The last of the factors is the self-
created hardship. To me this is the factor
that I'm always confused most about. I mean
there's only one scenario when somebody buys a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
lot and they know of its limitations, we know
that's a self-created hardship. Beyond that,
it's tough for me to understand that. What I
know about this is that it was an
unintentional merger. The properties were
bought when they were separate lots, they were
completely buildable when they were bought and
by a combination of accidents of the Southold
zoning code and an attorney from Garden City
who didn't know what he was doing with respect
to this issue, something happened and that was
the hardship. I don't consider that self-
created. We'll leave that to you to decide.
Again, of course, a self-created hardship
isn't something that in and of itself is
supposed to doom an application.
Those are the five factors. The other
thing, before I turn it over to your
questions, that I want to bring up is that the
last exhibit I submitted was mentioned in the
memo, but I forgot to attach it, is a
precedent for what we're asking for. Mostly,
a procedural precedent whereby a few years ago
the applicant named Morris had an
unintentional merger scenario and they came to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the Board for de-merger and were found not to
qualify. It was a smaller lot than we're
dealing with in an area of Greenport that
there were some undersized lots on the same
block, but across the street there were some
oversized lots. So it's similar circumstances
where there was no true defining
characteristic. They were found not to
qualify for the de-merger, which in some ways
is much more mechanical than the variance
application, but when they went through the
variance test the Board found they did qualify
despite having the 5,000-and-change square
foot lot, the Board granted them the variances
to allow them to re-recognize the parcel and
it's an interesting example, not only for the
procedural fact that the two tests are very
different, but the Board did consider as part
of that variance analysis the unfortunate
facts of the merger and that the other
property had been conveyed out already so
there was really nothing else that the
applicant could do with the lots. So we're
really standing in the same shoes.
Our memo, the last thing our memo
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addresses is the Planning Board memo. I'm not
going to go through that unless you want to.
I think we've responded to -- they had a very
simplistic approach to it. It needs a
variance, so you should deny it, but I think
your job is a little more complex than that.
So I'm not going to -- unless you want me to
belabor the point I will, but I'd like to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to say
it's one of the -- not surprising, it's one of
the most thorough briefs I've ever read other
than Mark's which is also a good brief. It's
certainly very clear. You've provided an
excellent, cogent and very succinct historic
background into the whole procedure so that
all Board members are brought up to speed. I
think just what's needed here is to see if any
other Board members have questions or comments
at this point. We'll start with Ken.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't have any
questions at this point.
MEMBER HORNING: Not at this time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The great concern I
have is side yards. I am a firm believer that
one side yard has to be left open to gain
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
access to, in this particular case, the great
harbor of Orient. Topography of the land is
difficult. I'm not happy with a flat-roof
house in that area, not necessarily because we
deal with -- cause we never deal with
architectural stuff, I find this area very
similar to Island View Lane which is off of
Bay Shore Road and not just, I think the world
of Mr. Traendly personally as an individual,
I've spoken to him to some great length at
times and he's a very, very nice man. I'm not
concerned about his use of the house, I'm
concerned about subsequent uses of the house.
People like to use flat-roof houses for the
purposes of putting a third story or utilizing
the third story for very simply view purposes.
I think that's an intrusion on neighbors, to
be honest with you, and I will drop the bomb
at this particular point.
I cannot understand for the life of me,
why this gentleman, and I did not ask him this
question because of the lawsuits pending, why
he did not take a 10-foot right-of-way off the
east side of this piece of property. It would
have helped this entire lot totally and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
personally think that that's what he should
do. He should require -- he should buy it
from the neighbor, the 10-foot right-of-way,
and I realize that there are --
MR. PASCO: I'm sorry,
who didn't take the 10-foot
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr.
so I understand,
Traendly when he
sold the Mallard Inn. I can't understand why
he didn't do that. Why he didn't add 10 feet
to this property. I realize that there are
obstructions in the way, there's a garage or
whatever, that could have been wrapped around
that, but for the life of me because that
house could have been pushed over closer to
that right-of-way and gaining more access on
the west side as a side yard. It absolutely
baffles me why that wasn't a part of the whole
situation when he sold that piece cause it's
0.90 of an acre. It's a huge piece of
property in comparison to this particular
piece of property and that's my whole issue
because on that issue of a right-of-way it
would have given him total access to the beach
and it would have given us the ability to have
a side yard on the opposite side where the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
neighbor was complaining on the west side how
close the house is and that's just one of the
issues that concerns me tremendously and one
of the real difficult things for me to swallow
in reference to dealing with the width of
this, the very narrowness of this particular
piece of property.
I'm not as concerned about the overall
7,000-plus square feet of the property. I'm
more concerned about the width of the
property. If it was 42, if it was 49 I think
it would be a lot easier, but that's just my
opinion.
MR. PASCA: This is part one --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. PASCA: -- and I know --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's why I'm
throwing it out there.
MR. PASCA: What I think some of your
concerns are going to have to be addressed
when, if and when, Mr. Traendly comes back to
resume the prior setback application and maybe
that would be a point at which the idea of
getting a right-of-way or some kind of rights
like that could be explored by him certainly
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
between now and then. There's really no way
for him to practically go forward with
anything until he knows that he can, you know,
at least get past point A.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's the only
reason I'm raising it.
MR. PASCA: I understand that. It was
sort of at least from my read of the
transcripts going back a couple of years,
cause I wasn't participating in that --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. PASCA: -- sort of the recognition
was at some point to bifurcate these issues.
Obviously, you have to think in the long term
and assume that, you know, he's not asking you
to legalize the lot so that no house could
ever go there, but at the same time what house
and what size house and its setbacks and its
exact location are still going to have to be
explored by you and that's going to be an
entirely separate application. The specifics
of the plans are going to have to be hashed
out and, you know, your suggestion may be the
type of suggestion he can explore between now
and then that might help move that part of it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
along, but we really have to get past point A
because there's really no practical way for
him to invest that kind of effort coming up
with plans, coming up with alternatives,
unless he knows that there's a reason for it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What's the purpose of
the hearing at this time?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They need a
variance for the lot size.
MR. PASCA: Area variance just for the
lot, to re-recognize the lot as a buildable
lot. To put it back where it was before that
day in July of '08 when the Building Inspector
said it's merged. I mean until that -- you
were still considering the application at that
point, where does the house go, where do the
setbacks -- you were asking for more
information from Mr. Traendly at that time,
but that process was stopped dead in its
tracks when, because of the ax of the code and
the prior attorney, the Building Inspector
said you can't get a building permit on it no
matter what until the lot is re-recognized.
So -- and there were two different ways to re-
recognize it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I understand that
and I understand that this hearing is going to
be held in abeyance. So I mean the point in
question is so is it exploratory, is it, you
know, are you asking for us to determine that
at this time?
MR. PASCA: We are asking you to
determine if the lot is a buildable lot. What
specifically goes on there is going to be the
subject of future proceedings and we're not
asking you to commit to anything. We're not
saying, you know -- other than the general
status that this lot enjoyed before whatever,
from '57 to '97 until they were inadvertently
merged. For 40 years this lot was a small lot
that required probably required some variances
at least to put, you know, a modest house on.
We're just asking you to put it back to that
status, that's all.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm just telling you
I don't think I can.
MEMBER HORNING: May I ask a question
also?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, go ahead,
George.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Why is it that this
garage or whatever that's on the site is in
such dilapidated condition? If the lot has
such value, you know, to -- it looks like it's
been --
MR. PASCA: Let me just answer you ~-
MEMBER HORNING: -- virtually abandoned
for years.
MR. PASCA: Let me do a legal answer to
it for now.
MEMBER HORNING: Sure.
MR. PASCA: The legal answer is even if
they wanted to fix it up, they wouldn't get a
building permit for it. They're not entitled
to get any building permits for this lot under
the Southold Code as it exists today, but to
be practical --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Moreover, you can't
have an accessory structure without a
principal dwelling on that lot even if it was
a recognized lot.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. TP~AENDLY: We always intended that
the properties should not be used in
conjunction with each other. This is one of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the things I understood was necessary to be
maintained. So we let it go for that reason,
not because we wanted it to be overgrown and
ugly, because we just didn't do any
improvements and --
MEMBER HOP~NING: May I, what I really
don't understand looking at the overall
situation is why you did not sell that lot
when you sold the other one. Sell it all at
the same time and make a substantial amount of
money and go and buy a piece of property
somewhere and do what you wanted with all the
money you got from selling this property.
MR. TP~AENDLY: Well, number one, I about
broke even believe it or not. That house was
sold, lot number 12, at an auction. Could not
sell it, believe it or not, and I broke even
at best, and we never -- we always considered
that the other lot was going to be our
retirement home lot from the beginning and we
tried to maintain it that way as best I could
and, aside from the slip up with the estate
attorney's advice being taken and putting it
together, inadvertently, that's the only slip
up over the years and when we tried to hold
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
true to that course I, frankly, couldn't
afford the other house at that point and
that's one of the reasons we got rid of it.
It took almost two years to sell it, believe
it or not -- I can't believe that, it's a
spectacular location, but nonetheless that
didn't do me any good.
It never occurred to me, Mr. Goehringer,
that there was even a necessity or reason to
have a right-of-way. You know, maybe I don't
understand that much, but I didn't realize
that would have been avenue which might be
available to me and, frankly, right now I
couldn't afford to buy it from the other guy.
I mean, why would he sell it to me? It would
have been an impossible financial task for me
to undergo, I think. I mean unless he'd give
it to me, I don't -- who knows?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see if
there's other questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I was a little
confused as to the reason why we're here, but
I'm assuming, after reading Mr. Nichols'
evaluation, that we're just -- you have to get
yourself of out limbo, which is --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes. Yes, sir.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you don't have a
buildable lot. You can't get a permit, you
can't do anything. All the -- best thing you
could do is park your car and go down to the
beach on this thing right now. So -- and I
know that the last
full architectural
to see height.
MR. TRAENDLY:
time we were discussing
plans, you know, we wanted
Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: How high it was going to
be, you know, we wanted to see everything. So
I think we were pretty much on course and I do
remember that, you know, all of a sudden I --
this merger thing came up. So I kind of
believe that we were heading down the road to
some kind of variance --
MR. TP~AENDLY: When I -- if I may?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MR. TP~AENDLY: When I reread the
transcripts, also my memory is not that good,
but it's not that bad yet, it's getting there,
but it's not that bad yet, I thought we were
on our way to coming up with a solution that
would satisfy the ZBA and that we would -- the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
comment was made by several members that you
have a buildable lot here, albeit with some
substantial variances, but let's work that out
later and we'll see how much of a concession
we need and so on and so forth and I thought
we were very much on that course, too. I
believed it and took actions behind the scenes
to get those things into the works.
So I frankly, I almost have a question
for the Board -- you can't question the Board,
I'm sure, but I'm confused as to how that
situation deteriorated into what we're
discussing right now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We could probably
answer that, but I believe your attorney has
answered it in his brief very clearly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I don't believe
you want to answer that, not on the record.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, again, that's why
we're here, right? We're here to make --
either make a decision that this is a
buildable lot or not a buildable lot and all
the other stuff that we talked about before is
going to come before us again --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. TP~AENDLY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- at some point in
time.
MR. PASCA: Yes. Absolutely.
MR. TRAENDLY: Yeah, we fully realize
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What we have is the
first application, which was for variances,
setback variances and lot coverage --
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- open. It was
adjourned without a date. Subsequently, the
waiver of merger came up. It was noticed that
there was an inadvertent merger. We denied
that. There was an Article 78, which will
become moot should this Board decide that an
area variance, which uses a different criteria
than the waiver of merger, which has very
clearly spelled out, 1, 2, 3, 4 so on, we
believe, as is the case with this precedent
you've just brought in, Exhibit X, that that
did not meet the criteria.
I think the most compelling argument from
my perspective that you've brought forth is
that the balancing test has a different set of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
standards. We have the state statutes to
examine and the ultimate question we ask is
whether or not the variance will provide a
greater benefit to the applicant than it will
a detriment to the community and those are not
prescribed in terms of equal percentages or
anything of the kind. We can interpret this
on the strength of arguments how those various
criteria balance out.
Should a building lot be reestablished,
then we go back to the original application,
which then proceeds the discussion again about
setbacks, lot coverage, the design, the size
and shape of the roof, emergency access, where
the septic will go, all of the typical things
that go into a proposal that's more than a
footprint. So that is where we are with this
application and what is -- it took awhile to
really sort through all of that, but that's
the synopsis of what is being requested today.
MR. PASCA: I think it's exactly where we
are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah and I --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The purpose of my
question okay, was a rhetorical one. Leslie,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
I apologize.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: You go ahead and
then I'll finish up.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and that is
things change with different attorneys, okay,
and in the past we would have never heard this
application, okay, if the waiver of merger was
still on and I realize that there's a
different set of criteria and I understand
that there are all the things that you very
nicely laid out in this, okay, and it's very
nice to be here and discuss this issue in
reference to the area variance criteria;
however, okay, I honestly believe that a
lawsuit is a lawsuit and then you go and you
deal with it until it plays out and then you
go back.
So I'm not prejudging this application in
reference to this issue of area variance. I
am very simply telling you that I have a
problem with the amount of property that you
have available in reference to what exists
today. I have spent -- 17 times I have been
back to that property to try and understand
without walking on it how it exists, why it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
exists and I know how it existed, how this
thing can be dealt with on the basis of the
width of a piece of property that's 35 feet
wide at it's widest point or there abouts and
it has been an issue that I have had sleepless
nights over just concerned about, okay, and
that is my issue in general and that is the
only issue or reason why I'm mentioning this
cause I have been busting at the seams to this
particular point in reference to the width of
this property and that's one of the concerns
that I have and again I'm not prejudging the
application.
MR. PASCA;: One thing, just to remind you
of, the two property next door are 35 feet,
the two properties to the west are almost
identical and maybe one is 36, maybe one is
34, I don't have a survey of them.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I
it's the issue of --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
feet and 35 feet.
do. It's not that
It's 37 feet, 36
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but they're all
pie-shaped, this is not pie-shaped.
MR. PASCA: The two next door, the two
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
next door.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm looking at ~hem
right now.
MR. PASCA: I don't believe that they're
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I wouldn't call
them pie-shaped, but they widen as they go
toward the water.
MR. PASCA: No, I wouldn't call them pie-
shaped.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: When this decision
was written originally, okay, the original
issues that came in regarding this decision
were all taken from the Assessor's cards.
Every point so much of an acre was done from
their particular -- they were not taken out of
the air, okay, so to speak.
MR. PASCA: No, no accusations.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that is the issue
that I'm saying, not only that we are looking
at a finished product. Now, can you tell me
the difference between a finished product and
not a finished -- that's not the point. The
point is that we had this huge what is
perceived to be downgrade as we go down and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
then we come back up to the beach. I have not
even had the ability to even walk on it to
actually understand it and that's what I do.
I take a cup of coffee, I go down and we spent
7 times at one person's property on North
Ba!rview just to understand what that
particular person was actually wanting us to
do before we granted a variance on that
particular piece of property. I had gone back
there ad nauseum and as I said I've been here
I think 17 times. Okay, I've even attempted
to walk over Dam Pond just to walk to it from
that particular point, but
walk on the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I want to really
Well, that's been
agreed to. A foot path will be created. I do
want to also state though that in having just
mentioned the road frontage of the two
adjacent parcels to the west, it should also
be noted that the subject parcel here is also
35 feet on the water, the seaward side,
whereas the other two are 70 feet.
MR. PASCA: That's (inaudible) yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They flair out,
okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MR. PASCA: If you were developing any of
those parcels today, the houses would have to
be located closer to the street because of
setbacks anyway.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. PASCA: So you're not going to gain
that much from a property flaring out closer
to the water, in terms of setbacks and
location on the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Zoning issues.
Yeah, well the
building envelope would be defined differently
in terms of setbacks any it historically might
have been -- let me ask you a question. I'd
like to hear how you would address this. You
provided substantial evidence about the fact
that the neighborhood has a number of lots
that are nonconforming to code, which is
40,000 square feet R-40 district. You've also
provided case law that suggests that we cannot
do things relative -- you know, just on a
numerical basis, they have to be -- they can't
be viewed as (inaudible) they have to be
looked at in context. I'm curious about the
nature of the substantiality argument. It is
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
clear that, and I can understand this within
the balancing framework, there is a difference
between properties that are nonconforming at
34,000 square feet and properties that are
nonconforming at 7,000 square feet and so how
would we contemplate the relationship of the
neighborhood in which there are three
properties, this one is the most substandard,
the other two that are almost comparable are
developed, okay, and so I'd like you to
address this issue from that perspective about
what is the nature of the degree of
nonconformity
MR. PASCA: I look at it this way and,
you know, I'm not perfect and I'm not going to
claim I know everything about zoning, but the
overall test which is what I started with is
the balancing test. If you look at the
statute, that's what it starts with. Here's
the overall test, you balance the benefit the
applicant and any detriment to the community.
The five factors that follow that are things
that you have to consider in reaching that
balance test and I think the reason why the
case law says that you don't look at things in
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
a vacuum, you don't look at a number and say
it's 50 percent variance, therefore that's
going to have an impact on the community.
It's that in context every variance may be
different in terms of its overall impact. The
impacts on the balancing test, depending on
that context. That's why I said 34,000-
square-foot house, if every other house is
34,000 or even if every other house if 40,000
might not seem like a significant impact, but
what if that 34,000-square-foot property was
in a neighborhood where every property was 2
acres? You might say, you know, that 6,000
square feet extra is going to have a more
significant impact on that community than it
would on a community where everything was
34,000 square feet or everything was 40,000.
So I believe that's what the reports and
the commentators have all warned about in
terms of not focusing in solely on that number
because it's easy to. It's the one part of
this test where we could all just say what's
the number? You know, you compare it to what
the required number is and I can tell you 50
percent, 60 percent, 10 percent, whatever it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
is, but the warning is you have to consider
that for what it's worth and that is how does
it impact that balancing test?
On the Morris application, I looked at
the aerial and that's a 5,000-and-change
square foot property, there's a few other
houses that are about the same size. There's
a couple that are double size lots, there's a
couple -- there's a bunch across the street
that are over an acre. So whatever this Board
granted that application, I'm presuming that
it took that same kind of balancing test into
account and said we don't feel that the
creation of -- the re-recognition of this one
lot, cause that's a big deal, we're not just
creating that of thin air -- the re-
recognition of this one lot that existed for
50 years, 60 years is not going to adversely
impact and tip the scales against giving the
applicant that very substantial benefit that
they used to have and I --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's a cookie cutter
-- it's a cookie cutter subdivision, it's
easy.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's not a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
cookie cutter subdivision, Morris.
MR. PASCA: No, no.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But Morris had a house
on one of the lots, which if Mr. Traendly was
not the applicant and the Niamonitakis were
the applicant, it would be the exact same
situation because they would say look we owned
it, but it merged because of this and that's
what happened to Davie and Nan. Two friends
of mine by the way, I grew up in that
neighborhood and that would be what this would
be about. It was about an owner who always
thought that he had something and Davie and
Nan just never thought about it as far as
merging. It was never something that would
occur to them that would happen because, you
know, they're simple people. They don't have
lawyers on staff and I think that's where we
are here.
We're still here -- I mean we're not
approving anything more than to say that this
is a building lot that's going to need some
variances anyway and I think it compares very
well to the Morris'.
MR. PASCA: It's again, we're just trying
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to put it back to where it was and that's why,
you know, and -- of course Mr. Goehringer
you're entitled to your opinion, but if we
were creating this from scratch and this was
something that we were proposing no one had
ever thought of before, you know, we got this
property we could column off a 35-foot strip
here and stick a house on it, wouldn't that be
great and get a little bit of money out of
that? I think it would be a completely
different analysis that you guys would be
engaged with and I certainly wouldn't have
even been here taking a case like that, but
the point is this lot existed and a couple of
years ago you weren't even questioning whether
a house would go on it. A house was going to
go on it, the question was what size house and
how do we mitigate against its impacts.
Everybody thought, at that time everybody
thought that the prior 40 years he owned it
that that was a single and separate building
lot and you know it's to -- again, it goes
back into that balancing test. We're not just
asking for that little bit of benefit out of
this, I mean, granted it's a 35-foot wide
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property. It's narrow and it's going to
require some other relief, but we're asking
you to weigh it against that substantial
benefit that it will create, which is really
to re-recognize what had always existed. I
mean the Southold Code you guys have been
dealing with for years and you probably have
had a lot of sad stories of people coming in
here that, you know, or heirs who came in and
couldn't believe that these lots were merged,
but that's what we're dealing with right now.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last issue is
that we weren't even close to anything at that
particular point only because we don't have
pre-submission conferences, every particular -
cause we're not allowed to, okay,
conceivably, every particular bit of testimony
and the give and take on the Board was only
scratching the surface of what we could
possibly end up giving Mr. Traendly at that
time. That's my opinion, okay. I'm sure if
we had one or two more hearings we may have
concreted it down a little bit farther, but we
still -- I construed it to be a very difficult
lot to build on and I still construed it that
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the neighbors on the west side were extremely
concerned, okay, based upon their opinion of
what a two-story house was going to impact
their particular piece of property and the
original two feet that was being offered by
the -- approximately at that time, no offense
taken, okay, -- on that side yard.
So I'm just telling you so -- I mean your
presentation is certainly well stated, but I'm
telling you we weren't even close and I
understand that that obviates the overall
philosophy of what we're doing here, but I'm
just telling you that that's one of the issues
that we're dealing with.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think it's
important to separate the two applications.
We can't presuppose -- I mean it might wind
up, should this be a building lot again, with
a 12-foot wide house. We don't know and I
think those are decisions that have to be made
in context with that application should it be
before us again.
I'd like to ask if the Board has any
additional questions at this time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: Just one comment, the
applicant will go away knowing full well that
he has to come back here and there are no
guarantees.
MR PASCA: There's no question and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
MR. PASCA: And by the way, nothing was
- we did quote portions of that transcript to
show where the conversation was heading, no
one's saying you committed to anything. We're
not and I'm saying that for the record we are
not suggesting in any way that, you know,
we're entitled to a variance of X, Y, or Z
when we come back here. We're going to have
to, in essence, start over.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's been over --
MR. PASCA: We're going to be basically
be starting over from scratch and presenting
you with, you know, whatever evidence you need
to make that decision. If you weren't close
then we'll be basically starting over again.
There's nothing wrong with that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the interest of
time, is there anyone else in this audience
that would like to speak in relationship to
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this application?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I'd
like to make a motion to close the hearing,
reserving decision to later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: The only thing that
remains is the path, yeah.
MR. PASCA: The path.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you please have
that done quickly and let the office know when
that's done so that we can go out and have a
better look at the property before we're
rendering a decision.
MS. PASCA: Okay.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6349 - Gwyneth M. Ketterer
and Mary B. Sykes
(Adjourned from 1/21/10.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, would you like
to state your name for the record and --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. Patricia
Moore on behalf of the applicants, Gwyneth
Ketterer and Mary Sykes. I also have with me
Nancy Steelman who is the design professional,
so I may defer to her on any questions on the
design that you might have.
I -- there's been a lot going on
(inaudible) sent you various documents and
right after our hearing you asked me some
questions regarding the CO. So on April 6tn I
sent you a letter describing the CO that we
had. I think, I don't know if Goerge had
asked me or the (inaudible), but in any case
it's in the file.
The existing -- we're dealing with an
accessory structure and the structure as it is
today has COs for everything. After our last
hearing the sense that we got from the
comments that we were hearing from the Board
that you were a little concerned and reluctant
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to allow for the increase in the second floor
area, even though we were limiting that
increased area to storage only, you were more
-- you were concerned about it. We listened
to your comments and we went back to the
client and we submitted plans that are dated
April 29tn those are the plans what we're
working with. We had -- we submitted them to
the Zoning Board, the Building Department said
that the Notice of Disapproval did not need to
be amended or updated in any way, but that is
the plan that is now before you.
It's actually a reduced plan and I'll
point out the areas that are reduced. Do you
have the plan in front of you?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, great.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: If you -- as you can see
this is both in the original plan as well as
in this plan there is an existing full
bathroom on the second floor of the accessory
building. That bathroom is actually being
reduced in size to a stall shower, sink, and
toilet, and the bathroom is being relocated to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
the corner of the building. It's an area
where the stairs are presently, interior
stairs are, and because of noncompliance with
the stairs as well as the riser height, the
stairs are relocated to the opposite side of
the -- across from the bathroom. You can see
on the second floor plan the design. We are
removing a -- the full -- there's a full tub
in that bathroom so that's being removed. So
the bathroom is, in fact, being reduced and
redesigned.
There is an existing outdoor staircase
and that is being removed altogether. There's
only (inaudible) for one access way and that's
the interior staircase. The design, the way
that this was built originally there was an
original two-story portion it looks like in
the 90s the shed, the extra attached to the
one-story portion was added, that area instead
of the roof line that is there presently it
would be a shed roof and we have an existing
wall height of 7.4. It's only going up by 8
inches to make it a new wall height of 8 feet.
So that is the one-story portion. So again,
the two-story existing, exterior wise, is
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remaining the same and in fact being reduced.
There is presently heating and air
conditioning in the building and I want to
make sure that I'm clear because the client
was a little upset with me when I first
submitted in April, early April, the design
that still had the two-story additional square
feet for the storage area. She said well if I
just have extra storage area, I'll give up my
air conditioning, but when we are actually
reducing this down to the existing she really
wants to keep air conditioning. It's an
amenity that, in particularly they are summer
residents, they use the house and the existing
pool house, the humidity and everything and
the air conditioning is really something that
most of us that are here all summer long think
is nice. In addition, the design we're
reducing the windows because of the change to
the shed roof and we're reducing, decreasing
the amount of windows on the second floor so
air conditioning is even more important when
you don't have the windows for ventilation.
So I just wanted to be clear because we
I gave something up to get something that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
she wanted, but since we're retreating and
going back (inaudible) the plan, I want to
make sure that that's understood.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask you a
question.
MRS. MOORE: Sure. Go ahead.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: At the moment I
believe that there's a window air conditioning
unit in the second floor studio. There is no
central air conditioning.
MRS. MOORE: There is no central air.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is no central
heat either.
MRS. MOORE: There is, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is central
heat on the ground floor and the second floor
there is --
MS. STEELMA-N: On the ground there is
heat (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please come up,
Nancy.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes. Nancy Steelman
(inaudible) architect.
Yes, in the corner of the building closer
to the Main Road, the southern portion, there
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
is a mechanical unit that's right there, a
vertical unit on the first floor and they've
operated it, it's all electric, they've been
operating that for years.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, but right now
we have window AC.
MS. STEELMAN: Yeah, correct. Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. You are not
proposing to increase the square footage in
this amended application?
MS. STEELMAN: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I believe it's
1,156-square-foot total, correct?
MS. STEELMAIq: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 706 on the first
floor, 405 on the second floor?
MS. STEELMAN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What you are
proposing is to move over the existing full
bath on the second floor, just move its
location; however, you are also proposing an
additional half bath. Now the Code permits a
half bath in an accessory structure.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm not sure how
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
you reconcile having two bathrooms in there.
You know, if you --
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: When you start to
move things that have preexisting
nonconforming COs, then you begin to start to
tamper with precisely what was grandfathered
by moving this bathroom to begin with. Now
you are proposing that the second floor and
first floor almost have no relationship to
each other because one was granted as a studio
with a full bath and the other downstairs was
just storage and now you're going to change
its use and put in another half bath. I tend
to see this as one structure and so I would
not be at all uncomfortable with having a
bathroom in there, particularly a half bath,
if you choose to argue that well because there
was a preexisting nonconforming full bath
we'll keep that; I'm not sure that the
inclination ought to be to grant a second half
bath.
MRS. MOORE: The only that -- because of
the first floor is a pool house, the Building
Department controls pool houses by making an
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outdoor shower rather than an interior shower.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And when you have a pool
house it's nice to have a toilet and a sink on
the same area in the same area as there --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's nice,
yes, but you have one up the stairs with a
shower.
MRS. MOORE: It's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're not
separate structures.
MRS. MOORE: No. I know it's one
structure. It's just the fact that you have
kids that are wet out of the pool and instead
of running through and going upstairs
(inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, they're not,
they're moving it over. This is where it was,
they're moving it to here.
MRS. MOORE: It's just a convenience for
a particular (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The stairs, they're
moving the stair to here.
The other thing I wanted to question,
since this is a pool house it ought to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
197
seasonal use not year round, heated or not, if
that's what its proposed use is so I want to
bring that up.
MS. STEELMAN: Well -- yeah, but I think
in this situation the stair is open to the
lower floor and there would be heat up in the
upper studio cause they will be using that
year round as studio space and we haven't
closed off the downstairs. I think that they
will probably use this for, you know, a good
six months, you know, on the lower level for
the pool.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, then let's be
clear about it, it's more than a pool house.
You're proposing it more than related to the
pool. You're proposing it as a --
[Mrs. Moore and Ms. Steelman are both
talking at the same time.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I want the
record to be clear about what you're asking
for. You're asking for this year round use as
a pool house when the pool is open and a
recreation room year round.
MS. STEELMAN: Correct and that's
drawings have been labeled.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. I'm just --
I see that, I'm just pointing it out. You
understand that it is very, certainly from my
perspective, this needs to be restricted in
terms of habitable space because you are not
proposing an accessory apartment.
MS. STEELMAN: We understand that and our
clients --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So no cooking, no
sleeping --
MS. STEELMAN: Correct, we understand
that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: So would you be
willing to have us apply C&R so stating?
MRS. MOORE:
MS. STEELMAN:
a potential.
(Inaudible).
(Inaudible)
that would be
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I don't have
any more questions at the moment.
MEMBER HORNING: The original
was amended by new plans, correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: And other than some of
the internal alterations that you're talking
about moving the stairway, etc., tell us more
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about the amended plans in relationship to the
size of the second story and such like that.
MS. STEELMAi~: Yes, I can do that. If
you look at the second floor plan --
MEMBER HORNING: The new one.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes. We're talking about
our current state, you'll see that there is a
note there pointing to window area. All the
walls on the second floor are existing.
They're shown sort of cross-hatched and those
are all existing walls around the perimeter.
So the second floor area is no increase in any
square footage.
MEMBER HORNING: Whereas the other plan
there was.
MS. STEELMAN: On the other plan there
was and in that case we had come over where it
says, roof below on that same plan, that was
then, on our previous plan, was a storage area
that had full 8-foot high walls and with an 8-
foot ceiling. Now,
a little shed area,
space above --
MRS. MOORE: [Not
MEMBER HORNING:
it's going to be only just
it has a little attic
at microphone.]
Correct, I saw the other
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
drawing briefly.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: He actually has them
right here.
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. All right, good.
It's difficult to (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not speaking for
him, I just wanted to --
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you proposing
those -- it would appear from the second floor
plan as amended that there is some access to a
storage area on the second floor.
MS. STEELMAN: (Inaudible) little storage
area, it's storage from that point on.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MS. STEELMAN: It's just access. So it's
not usable. It's storage for anything other
than just miscellaneous boxes.
MRS. MOORE: Right. Where the shed roof
comes down and just
feet --
MS. STEELMAN:
(inaudible) small three
At the most by the time
you have the structure --
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MRS. MOORE: Okay (inaudible).
MS. STEELMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I just did
want to have the record reflect the fact that
there is some additional second floor floor
area.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's (inaudible).
MS. STEELMAN: Well,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
under the rafters.
(inaudible) not --
It's going to be
MS. STEELMAN: Under the rafters, it's
very marginal.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) --
MS. STEELMAN: It's only mainly because I
would prefer to have the ceiling in the
recreation pool house continuing at 8 feet.
It's strange to have it in this part of that
room and all of a sudden go back to
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MS. STEELMAN: So that's why we've done
that. It's just an added space and,
architecturally, I mean I didn't want to do a
flat roof in that area. (Inaudible) a little
more like a barn.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, all right
let's just explore one more question. Since
you're proposing to move this, relocate the
full bath on the second floor, from a space
planning perspective I understand the reason
why, you're getting a bigger studio out of it
by removing the stair and --
MS. STEELMAN: You are, but you're also
taking space where the new stair is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand.
Yeah, yeah.
MS. STEELM3LN: And this is now meeting
code in terms of its overall dimension.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I don't have a
problem with that, but what I'm asking you
about is this is not habitable space --
MS. STEELMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- why do you need
a shower?
MRS. MOORE: Because they had a tub.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Well, that's what
I'm trying to say. If it's a grandfathered
pre-CO situation, when you move it, that's up
for discussion. If you left it where it was,
that's grandfathered. Once you move
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something, it's my understanding that all bets
are off.
MS. STEELMAN: Well, we can keep it, but
we're trying to minimize the tub, the shower,
the toilet and vanity that's currently in
there. We thought as a smaller area it's just
as simple little small 30 by 30 shower, that
it alleviates that larger intense use.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand
architecturally that this plan makes a good
deal of sense all the way around. From a
zoning perspective we have to look at what the
implications are in changing a preexisting
nonconforming situation.
MRS. MOORE: I understand philosophically
your position, but let's keep in mind where we
are here, this is we -- it's a building that's
tucked in next to the pool surrounded by AG
land to the west. They own the adjacent
property on the (Inaudible) Road and they're -
- the closest house is probably 500 feet away.
So it is -- I understand philosophically
you're trying to, you know, keep nonconforming
as nonconforming without any modification, but
there is a benefit here in making the
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structure more compliant with existing
building code. So there is the balancing of
making improvements that make an overall
common sense improvement to the property,
making the property more conforming in other
areas not just looking at it as a zoning
nonconforming structure because it -- and
again, if we were right in the middle of a
subdivision smack down where you have multiple
neighbors and somebody was complaining, I
could understand your -- some of your comments
and concerns, but it's more of a philosoPhical
concern than it is an actual practical issue
here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't see any of
this having an impact on the neighborhood.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is not my
perspective, short of removing the exterior
stair, which is an improvement --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: -- I don't see
anything on the outside that's going to
change.
MRS, MOORE: Right.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I'm just really
talking about the fact that this Board has
already denied, as you probably are aware, the
expansion for an artist's studio of a large,
very large accessory garage in Orient. Here
is another example. This one has, you know, a
full bath in it based on a preexisting
nonconforming pre-CO.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) denied
(inaudible) structure --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, it wasn't. No,
it's a very old large --
MRS. MOORE: -- (inaudible) I didn't know
which one you're referring to.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, that's East
Marion.
MRS. MOORE: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Remember?
MEMBER HORNING: May I ask a question
related to that?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I was carried away
myself there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This Board is not
inclined to grant expansions of already very
large accessory structures. The law was
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changed to sort of prevent that; however, my
concern is that the proposal for another half
bath in a structure that already have a full
bath in it.
MS. STEELMAN: I think my client's
proposed that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand why
they want it.
MS. STEELMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But I'm raising it
because --
MEMBER HORNING: Could I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you know to what
extent can an accessory structure be -- so now
you've got a bath and a half. How do we
justify a full bath and a half?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The point in question
is as you know it comes down to a vote of
three votes, okay, so I mean it may go and
that's what we're saying.
MEMBER HORNING: May I -- a technical
question.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: You have electric
service out there now, correct?
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MRS. MOORE: We do, yes.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Can you tell us what
it's rated for, the panel, is it 120 volts;
what do you have out there in terms of --
MS. STEELMAN: Well, I did look at the
panel when we did the existing condition
(inaudible) I believe it has 100 amp service.
There is underground electric now going to
that area directly. There's a big generator
out on the southern side of the building that
also carries the house. So (inaudible)
primary service into the pool house area with
a generator and then going to the house.
Those were renovations done back in 1980. I
believe there's a 100 amp panel that's there
now.
MEMBER HORNING: And you're doing some
electric heat, is that what you said?
MRS. MOORE: There was electric heat.
MEMBER HORNING: There was electric heat.
MS. STEELMAN: There was electric heat.
MEMBER HORNING: And you're going to heat
it which way now?
MS. STEELMAN: We had planned to do,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
well, with the air conditioning we were going
to do a ducted system --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: HVAC.
-- have a mechanical room
MS. STEELMAIq:
in that far corner.
put
MEMBER HORNING: Are there any plans to
let's say a clothes dryer anywhere --
MS. STEELMAN: No.
MEMBER HORNING: --
MS. STEELMAN: No.
in the structure?
They have three
washer/dryer units in their house and they do
not need anything like that here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, since the
central heat is already there, that's one
thing, but again when you're starting to
change all of that, put in a ducted system,
you're creating a far more habitable year-
round structure. You have a window air
conditioner on the second floor. You can put
another one in on the first floor and you can
accomplish air conditioning that way. I'm
looking to try and maintain this structure to
the current standards while allowing the
applicant to make improvements and to change
the use from a garage to a pool
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
house/recreation room. Okay, so I just want
that to be stated on the record.
Jim, do you have any questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, no -- I mean I
guess the -- I wasn't here for the first
hearing, but I guess the studio was
preexisting cause you never came
MRS. MOORE: It's an existing
(inaudible). Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
never any conditions
storage was just storage.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
any storage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It happened to be
upstairs and downstairs was garage or
whatever, right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There was no
upstairs storage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but that's
that was studio --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and then we had
storage, which we want to change that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Downstairs, yeah.
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-- to us and there was
or reason why you had the
Right?
They didn't have
a studio,
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MEMBER DINIZIO: -- to a pool house?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so I don't know --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just catch myself
wondering whether you could just build another
pool house on the property.
MS. STEELMAN: You could.
MRS. MOORE: We could build (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but I mean
without a variance you could probably do that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have.
MRS. MOORE: I mean the variance that
we're dealing with as far as setbacks go is
because the right-of-way appears from the way
the configuration of this property makes this
a front yard setback when, in fact, if you
were to go out there and take a look, it's
either side yard (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
because of the change of
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Well, that was
the driveway.
When they used to
bring the driveway from the original
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subdivision, now they're bringing it in from
the original sub but just three houses down.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. So it's just technical
thinking in the front yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think anybody --
I don't think we've had any discussion on that
setback. It's just I think it has more to do
with what you have preexisting and why you --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- would choose to --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but don't --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- screw around with it.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but the only problem
with that (inaudible) is pool houses. Pool
houses with toilets and sinks are very
standard. In a pool house adding a toilet and
sink is very standard, the only reason that
this is a complication is because it has a
preexisting height of two-stories and square
footage wise I guess it doesn't conform with
the existing code.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Code.
MRS. MOORE: But again it is already
there, it was already built and it states on
the CO history I think it was -- the garage
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
had been the two-story portion up here is on
the pre-CO so that building itself is a
preexisting structure and (inaudible) keep it
modern and renovated and in good condition.
The kids are in there, you know, they want it
safe. The clients want to spend money on it
to make it a safe building for them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any other Board
members have any questions?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone in the
audience wish to address this application?
Okay. Hearing no further --
MRS. MOORE: I think she wants --
MS. STEELMAN: Could I just make one more
final statement?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you can.
MS. STEELMAN: Actually, I might make two
final statements. The area that we're
discussing is outside the setback. I have
seen this now and I have told my clients
originally, from my first design this
(inaudible), was that what we were doing is we
were increasing the nonconformity because we
were raising and changing the roofline 8
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
inches. This seemed like a fairly
straightforward variance. We've done it
before, we've had to come in for a porch to
increase 8 inches to get --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The height, yeah.
MS. STEELM3~N: -- you know, to meet New
York State Building Code headroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MS. STEELMAN: So that's the point that
I'd like to make. I know that we have altered
the upstairs (inaudible) area. The first
analysis of that was the stairs did not meet
the Code, and because we were changing the use
on the lower floor I needed to make a stair
that -- design a stair that was meeting New
York State Building Code. I had to alter --
in that current location, I would have to
alter the toilet room to decrease the size of
it so I could increase the width of the stairs
and also the length of the stairs had to go
further into the upper floor. So by starting
to manipulate and modify that that way, it
seemed well, you know, now if I'm doing that
let's move the stairs, increase the overall
stair area so it looks better and then also
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
move the bathroom into that slot where the
stair was and then decrease the size of the
bathroom. So those were the process so I
wanted to make that clear (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. Hearing
no further comments, I'd like to make a motion
to close the hearing,
later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
reserving decision to a
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING - #6375 - CMEEC/F I ELECTRIC CORP
(Adjourned from 4/22/10.)
(George Homing, recused himself.)
MR. WARN: Since our last meeting I met
with the Planning Board working through the
(inaudible) on a few issues and I verified
(inaudible) this morning with the Planning
Board that those issues have been resolved to
the satisfaction of the Planning Board. I
don't know what the Board wants (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: We have it in the
record that they are supporting your
application.
MR. WARN: I'm here to answer any
questions or add any details you would like.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, when last we
left this situation the Planning Board was
reviewing the application. It now has support
for the application. We were requesting a
landscape plan, which we now have before us
which has been submitted to them and us. I
wanted the drainage plan examined by the Town
Engineer for approval that it met Town Code
and that has been accomplished. We have a
letter in our file from Jamie Richter so
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
stating. We also have copies ourselves of the
drainage plan. We also received from you an
email indicating you would mitigate with
additional muffling, mufflers or whatever, if
needed, based on sound levels, which was
something in the record and we now have that.
MR. WARN: Might I add, we also followed
it up with a formal letter from the CMEEC CEO
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I don't have --
I don't see any other dangling bits and
pieces. So let me turn this over to Jim whose
application this is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No comments at all. It
looks like all the questions have been
answered and the T's have been dotted, so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sorry you had to
wait so long for it. Thank you.
Anybody else in the audience that wishes
to address this application?
Hearing none, I make a motion to close
this hearing, reserving decision to a later
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
217
date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6359 - Jay Mandelbaum
(Adjourned from 3/25/10.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Jerry, this is your
application.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, it is.
Is there anything you'd like to say, Mr.
Arnoff?
MR. ARNOFF: Okay, I tried my best to
(inaudible) but I did try my best to give the
Board what you asked for at our meeting, the
last time we were here. I had the landscape
garden planner, the garden design center drew
up a plan. I sent you photographs of the
intended fence. The fence that would be used,
they're not intending remove other than
absolutely -- if you notice, you were
interested in the North Ba!rview portion the
interior trees and shrubs are to remain.
They're not going to be removed. They're just
going to be adding things to it and if you can
see each one of the photographs has a legend
underneath it as to what is intended to be
(inaudible) the road, the privet hedge
(inaudible) along the property line, by the
tennis court. Vegetation will remain,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
additional screening in the area using native
Mountain Laurel to screen the court.
So I attempted to write a covenant, I
enclosed a proposed covenant, which I sent to
you, to deal with the issues of these
(inaudible). If I failed to do that, then I
will tell you it is my fault and not the fault
of my clients.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is the picture
of this wooden fence?
to go?
MR. ARNOFF: That
Where is that supposed
is the -- that's the
fence that is going up around the whole tennis
court.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there any
meshing in between that?
MR. ARNOFF: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Obviously, you
know, the balls --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but the fence
is 4-feet high.
MR. ARNOFF: I asked that question, by the
way, that was the question --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is that?
MR. ARNOFF: -- that I (inaudible). That
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
was the question (inaudible) yes, it's going
to be sort of like an invisible black type
fence, you know, chicken wire type of thing I
would assume in between it cause otherwise
it's useless to put the fence up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course.
MR. ARNOFF: My client said if the Board
wants we'll put up black chain link, okay, but
she felt black chain link would be ugly in
this neighborhood. She felt that this would
be decorative and it would be something that
would be a credit to the neighborhood. That's
what she felt. So we'll go either way, but
that's what she said.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and the other
issue is we have the option of going --
anything that we want in reference to any type
of landscaping to either enhance or de-enhance
what you've given us.
MR. ARNOFF: Of course.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. And the option
of course of any type of fencing that we think
may be more appropriate.
MR. ARNOFF: I would say that that would
be correct. Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and the last
issue is the present C&Rs that are on all the
properties here and their setbacks and we
realize that this particular piece of property
has three front yards, okay. Have you
reviewed the setbacks of the subdivision
itself?
MR. ARNOFF: I did. I don't think
they're (inaudible) there's no mention of
tennis courts on it at all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There are mentions
of fences in section 7. "No fence shall be
constructed or placed within 75 feet of the
front or street line of any lot and plot or
between the front of a single-family dwelling
and the front of a street line of any lot and
plot, whichever is greater." And of course
the obvious is that no swimming pool or tennis
court shall be permitted unless it's adjacent
to a single-family dwelling, which is fairly
obvious to most. It's unusual to have an
accessory structure on a building lot without
a principal dwelling.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the unique part
about that is, and counsel is here, nor have I
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
asked her that question, but we are not
necessarily bound by those covenants and
restrictions, particularly in a situation
where you have three front yards, and that's
just my opinion from past precedent, but I'm
throwing it out to you and I'm not putting --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, as we
discussed before, the Covenants and
Restrictions are to the benefit of certain
people. You aren't to interpret them, you
really can't be enforcing them. If the
neighboring property owners have a problem
with them, and they raised it here, then it
would be within your discretion if anyone was
uncomfortable with this, but you really can't
do any -- if -- the benefit are the people who
live -- the people who benefit from the
covenants and restrictions are those who live
within the community, but we can't enforce
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I ask a question?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If we grant this, do we
have precedent over them?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Over who?
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MEMBER DINIZIO:
restrictions?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No,
still have a private right of
Over the covenant and
they would
action again.
MR. ARNOFF: [Not at microphone.]
(Inaudible) if somebody was enjoying the
benefits of those covenants, members of the
community, the actual subdivision community,
would have the right to bring primary action
if they so chose. So --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You could still hash
that out --
MR. ARNOFF: I've had this discussion in
the past with members of this Board
(inaudible) you could make this on the
property line or 300 feet from the property
line, it didn't really matter what the Board
did as far as we're concerned the Board has
the ultimate discretion of that
notwithstanding any C of Os that are on the
property such as the (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could I
question? Have you discussed this
the neighborhood association?
MR. ARNOFF: I don't think there really
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at all with
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is an active neighborhood association. Ail
the neighbors there are -- we have letters in
here saying we're in favor of this as long as
there's no -- the big complaint was, if you
recall, people wanted to make sure the
screening remained and they wanted to make
sure, as I recall, that there would be no
spotlights.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: No night lighting.
MR. ARNOFF: No. No -- nothing other
than ground lighting. I think I put it in
that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Why would you need
ground lighting?
MR. ARNOFF: Because if you get there at
6 or 7:00 at night I don't want people
stumbling off the property, that's all. I'm
looking at literally ground lighting. I don't
feel (inaudible) my clients are not looking
for a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you're
talking about path lighting, but --
MR. ARNOFF: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- nevertheless,
why would you be if the tennis court is not
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lit and it's not light enough to play tennis,
then, you know --
MR. ARNOFF:
that, that's all.
(inaudible) if you don't want
it's not the end of the world,
or the other. It's just that
I'm just concerned about
I understand your
to approve that,
okay, one way
I had -- I put
that in because I felt that it would be a
safeguard for people who would be using the
court, that's all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The other thing
that has to do with the proposed C&R, by the
way, back to landscaping for a second. Has
your -- has the neighbor that shares the
adjacent property line looked at this
landscape plan?
MR. ARNOFF: I have no idea.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. That was the
one letter that we had saying, you know, we
just want to make sure it's screened.
Secondly, the -- there is
to do with landscaping of
a notation that the grade
in section 6, having
the subdivision C&R,
on any portion of
any lot shall not be elevated or depressed
more than three feet from that of the abutting
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street and surrounding lot/plot. One thing
that some people have done with tennis courts
is then to create a very low retaining wall
and lower it slightly below grade so that the
functional fence is about six feet high even
though from the grade of the tennis surface it
might be 8 feet high.
MR. ARNOFF: When you stop using it as a
tennis court you dig a little deeper and use
it as a pool.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There you go or a
foundation for a house.
MR. ARNOFF: I understand the theory.
It's an interesting theory. I haven't
discussed it. If the Board -- you know, my
clients are really -- my clients truly are
interested in being good neighbors and doing
this the right way. So I think that they
would be somewhat receptive to doing something
like that, but if the Board (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I'm just
looking at the C&R saying that they do permit
it up to three feet, that's all. I want that
in the record.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, this is --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMA-N: I'm not sure what
the Board wants to do at all.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is clearly a
tennis court on grade to my knowledge.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what was
they're proposing, yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. ARNOFF: As far as, yeah, this is a
very flat parcel (inaudible) North Bayview I
think. I haven't looked at the property in a
while, but I'm not sure that the (inaudible).
It's pretty flat, so I (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's quite
flat. The other option, of course, is to
grant a lower fence, but to create landscaping
that's a lot higher than the fence. I mean
Leland Cypress, hedgerow, they'll grow to 10-
13 feet tall easily and quickly.
MR. ARNOFF: The problem is I'm not sure
how good at tennis they are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A good hedgerow
will stop a tennis ball, unless they're, you
know, they're Nastasi --
MR. ARNOFF: (Inaudible) they're climbing
up in the trees to get the tennis balls down.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: The other point is
that aside from the fact that I'm sure
inadvertently the proposed C&R that you
submitted to us mentions Southampton and not
Southold
MR. ARNOFF: They did? I'm very sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I think you
just need to correct your templates, that's
all.
MR. ARNOFF: Where is that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's in there.
MR. ARNOFF: Oh, I see it. I'll make
that change, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: The other thing is
that we had talked about 10 years and this
proposal is 20 years.
MR. ARNOFF: Okay, I thought we talked
about -- I truthfully have a note that says
20, if you say we talked about 10, I'll make
it 10. I don't have a problem with that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last point is
this is really not my file, it's Mr.
Horning's, okay, but I just want you to be
aware this is a precedent setting situation,
okay.
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MR. ARNOFF: I know it is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And you know we've
over the years had some great difficulty in
dealing with applications like this. So we'll
see what happens.
MR. ARNOFF: I understand it is precedent
setting. I certainly appreciate -- I'll take
a minute to just say I appreciate the Board
listening to me, but under the circumstances I
think the application makes sense and this
approval makes sense, with the appropriate
safeguards put in place. As a member of the
community, I'm interested in those safeguards
as well as Mr. Goehringer knows quite well.
MEMBER HORNING: Sir,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
any other --
MEMBER HORNING: Yes,
I have a question.
Does the Board have
I do. I would --
picking up on the last public hearing, we had
asked about other plans for this site and you
had mentioned that they had futuristic plans
for a principal dwelling.
MR. ARNOFF: Well, we put in -- we drew
what would be our concept of where a building
envelope would be on the landscape plan.
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MEMBER HORNING: But you're not showing
any setbacks from the street.
MR. ARNOFF: No, no. The reason we're
not is this, as you're well aware this is a
problematic, to use a word that I'm not really
terribly enamored of, lot because it has three
front yards and because of that how we would
situate the house within that proposed
envelope would be -- would differ, it might
depend. Our clients might have a different
design concept, so I'm not certain -- I didn't
know where to go with it. Okay, that's the
truth. I had no idea where to go with
setbacks when we did this.
So I told the landscape design person put
a building envelope in there. I don't care
really almost where it is, but give them some
room to build a house that's going to be about
3,000-5,000 square feet two-story and -- which
is in keeping with houses in the area and, you
know, and that's what we did. I can assure
you that no matter whether they put up a 1500-
square-foot house or a 15,000-square-foot
house, we're going to be here again because
this property is -- you can't build anything
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on this property without a variance. I mean,
maybe you can, but I'd have to sit down a long
time to study it. I don't think (inaudible)
that's why (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Well, we were kind of
interested in sort of a proposed dimensional
layout on the survey showing the proposed
building and, you know, setbacks so that we
could get an idea of what kind of variances
would be necessary in the future for a
building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIN: George, just so you
know, the section 2 on bulk on the subdivision
C&Rs, single family dwelling shall contain not
less than 1800 square feet and in the case of
a two-story dwelling at least 900 square feet
of which must be on the first floor year round
heated, fully enclosed, blah, blah, blah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's 24 by 36.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Very small,
actually. Attached garage, so it would
contain at least 300 square feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Again this is a covenant
that we're not abiding by though.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, but we're saying
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it
two-story house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
could be as small as 900 square feet on a
According to their
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You could meet those
conforming setbacks anywhere. I mean this is
not a 2500-square-foot house on the first
floor, okay, which you might have problems
with.
MR.
Horning,
ARNOFF: I agree and also, Mr.
I'm sure that you're familiar with
the neighborhood. There's nothing in that
neighborhood I don't think under 3000 square
feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, it's very upscale.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Huge houses.
MR. ARNOFF: That's really a very modest
statement. I think most of the houses in
there are 4-5,000 square feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Easily.
MR. ARNOFF: And the one big house across
the street is (inaudible) square feet, I have
no idea, but the big house is the standard
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Well, I think that
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validates the request for showing some sort of
a realistic building layout that we would
consider, you know, what type of variances
would be necessary. I mean they're not going
to build a 20 by 20 structure there, are they?
MR. ARNOFF: Well, again, I don't know
that they've decided what they're going to
build there, that's the problem. They're not
-- the idea of what they're going to build,
whether it's a one-story or two-story, you
know, (inaudible) house on the (inaudible)
they're all different types in that particular
neighborhood. It isn't like there's a
specific type of house that people
(inaudible).
The setback, a good setback on here today
I think would just mean that we would come
back with other different setbacks because my
feeling is that you can't really lock them in
today. If I told you they were going to build
in six months (Inaudible), but at the same
time we have no immediate plans to build on
this property and I'm making that very clear
to the Board and I'm (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Correct, but what you're
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doing by doing the tennis court first is
you're actually limiting your ability to put a
residence on there --
MR. ARNOFF: I don't think we are because
the Board could say take the court out and put
your house on (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Well,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
we could --
Actually, we can
include in C&R the revocation of that -- it
would be a temporary CO for an accessory
structure without a principal dwelling which
is precedent setting really.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, that idea came up
at the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the first
hearing and so --
MEMBER HORNING: -- hearing and then you
weren't very receptive to that idea either of
us requiring the tennis court to be removed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I think he was.
I think he said --
MR. ARNOFF: No, I don't think I -- Mr.
Horning, I have to differ with you. I don't
think that we took a hard line on any issue.
What I'm saying to you is I did take a hard
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line by saying I would not feel that it was
mandatorily removed it would be before this
Board and this Board's discretion to determine
at that time whether the proposed house and
that existing tennis court would be compatible
with zoning regulations at the time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. ARNOFF: And if it were -- and I
certainly would not want to lock my clients
into a mandatory removal of a tennis court and
all it's appurtenances by virtue of having to
drive the first nail into or dig the first
shovel of dirt to build a house. I think
maybe you and I were saying the same thing,
but we're coming at
of view.
MEMBER HORNING:
it from a different point
My point of view, quite
frankly, is that the principal dwelling on a
lot is more of a consideration than an
accessory structure.
MR. ARNOFF: I don't disagree with you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What is before us
is a proposal for a temporary CO on an
accessory structure. It's open for discussion
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as to how to shape the C&R in ways this Board
is satisfied with. Obviously, you're very
cooperative, as the attorney, on having the
option to do that as well as variations with
grade and height of fence and so on. So I
think the Board just has to decide whether or
not we're prepared to go ahead and create this
kind of a situation, a precedent. If the
Board is inclined to say yes, then we will
obviously do everything we possibly can to
make sure that this is an undoable situation
and describe it as a unique situation so that
it doesn't unleash a whole bunch of other
additional applications with similar kinds of
circumstances.
MR. ARNOFF: I would not expect anything
less from the Board. I say that to you as you
(inaudible) what I would want the Board to do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Jim, do you
have a question or comments or anything?
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're definitely
flexible on the fence though, right?
MR. ARNOFF: Yes, sir.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I see.
That, what you showed, I think I'd like
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to have black chain link fence myself. You're
okay with that if that's the case. I mean
have the neighbors seen that fence?
MR. ARNOFF: I think -- let me explain to
you, I don't know that I have (inaudible) but
so I'm telling you that, but that doesn't -- I
just for my part I spoke with my client who
did say if this Board wanted black chain link,
we'll put up black chain link, but she felt
that this was aesthetically desirable. Okay,
I mean again --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
any grand scheme as far as,
the house together --
MR. ARNOFF: There's no grand scheme.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's what I want
to know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's all I
wanted to know.
MR. ARNOFF: There truly is no grand
scheme. If there were, I would not be
representing them unless they were doing
something (inaudible). I've known them for
quite sometime, there's no grand scheme.
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it's not part of
you know, bringing
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: They have a house in the
area, right, and --
MR. ARNOFF: Across the street. They own
a lot across the street and there's another
lot across the street that they own as well.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. ARNOFF: So there's three lots in the
subdivision they own, plus a house on the
corner of, I guess that's in (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm wondering if
there's anyone in the audience who would like
to speak to this application.
Please come forward and state your name
for the record.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yes. My name is Connie
Monteforte and I live on North Bayview. I'm
not part of that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell
your name, please?
MS. MONTEFORTE: M-O-N-T-E-F-O-R-T-E.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. MONTEFORTE: And I did go down to the
Planning Board to see the proposed however
they plan to landscape it this week and there
was nothing there and we couldn't see
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
anything. So I'd like to see it and show it
to my neighbors cause we are --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
MS. MONTEFORTE: It is a concern and we
were just curious to know where on the
property, you know, is it closer to North
Ba!rview to our homes the tennis court or is it
closest to the bigger homes on --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Why don't you come
forward and we'll show you what we have on the
record and we can make a copy of this for you.
MR. ARNOFF: I think there's an extra
copy. I think I gave the Board eight copies.
MS. MONTEFORTE: I went down to the
Planning Board and they didn't know it was --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is the Zoning
Board.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Oh, the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We
zoning --
just got this so
that's probably why you didn't -- by the way,
this is what they propose as a general plan,
we can certainly --
MS. MONTEFORTE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can certainly
add additional landscaping and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: My whole thought on
this situation would be never to see the
court, buried in --
MR. ARNOFF: I agree.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- and never to see
it. Probably in reality never to hear it
because of the way it's buried in the -- I'm
very sensitive about the (Inaudible) factor in
anything that I've ever done.
MS. MONTEFORTE: I mean there is a -- how
they propose it there is a big tall oak tree
there, tremendous tree.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It would have to come
forward of that, I'm sure.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yeah, I mean that would
have to probably come down.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I don't know about --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, no. I don't
think this -- well --
MS. MONTEFORTE: I mean I don't know how
many feet it is from the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's part of the
dilemma, we really don't have a survey with
this on it. We have a --
MR. ARNOFF: I thought it submitted,
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there's a survey --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me not speak
out of turn.
MR. ARNOFF: There's a survey right
there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, that's a copy
of the landscape --
MR. ARNOFF: That is a superimposed
survey that has --
BOARD SECRETARY: That is, but I don't
think it shows setback.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it doesn't.
BOARD SECRETARY: It doesn't spell out
how far you are from the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Yeah. Wait a
minute, let's see. 20 feet (inaudible) here -
so according to this it's 20 feet all the
way around, 20, 20 and 20.
MS. MONTEFORTE: 20 feet from the road?
BOARD SECRETARY: Their property line.
MS. MONTEFORTE: That's the width from
the split rail fence or the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can
decide.
MS. MONTEFORTE: I mean there is a split
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
rail fence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
on the property now.
MS. MONTEFORTE:
BOARD SECRETARY:
survey.
MS. MONTEFORTE:
fence which I don't
Oh, you mean what's
Right, there is one.
You can have the
And then there's another
know who that belongs to.
BOARD SECRETARY: Yup, I see it, right
here. See this right here, this is the
property line. I don't -- this is their
property line, the solid line.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yes.
BOARD SECRETARY: This is the end of the
roadway.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Right so there's some
greenery I guess over here.
BOARD SECRETARY: So 20 feet off of their
property.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yeah, I mean because the
people --
BOARD SECRETARY: But that's only to the
fence, that's not to the court. You can see
the court is inside the fence.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Right, right. Yeah, I
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see that. Right. I know, but still, you
know, it's more this way than this way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, that's because
that's where the house is going to go on the
other side.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Part of the problem
is they have to make it -- they're trying to
plan this, though not in detail, with the
possibility that it might remain there when
they build a house. So the question is are
they building a house that's fronting on North
Bayview or they're building a -- they can't
because they're not a part of that
subdivision, so they have to build on that
part of the lot; however, what we can do is
allow you the opportunity to show this to your
neighbors to submit written comments.
We can close this hearing subject to
receipt of those comments, give you reasonable
amount of time to make the comments.
Obviously, share your letter with Mr. Arnoff
and you could certainly respond to it if you
wish to and --
MR. ARNOFF: Fine.
MS. MONTEFORTE: And also -- oh, here's
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the fence. Oh yeah, that's the fence I'm sure
would be (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The fence if we ever
granted it would be black chain link.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Very embodied,
embodied in hedgerow.
MS. MONTEFORTE:
be?
And how tall would it
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're proposing
10 feet, that doesn't mean we have to grant it
MEMBER DINIZIO: We might stick it into
the ground three feet --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We might require
them to suppress the tennis court three feet
lower so that the --
MS. MONTEFORTE: (Inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. Well, we can
also condition it that no mature trees beyond
a certain caliper are to be removed and
they'll have to site it according to that and
then they'll have to come back with a final
plan showing that they're meeting all the
conditions that we're imposing before they get
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
a permit.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We might not all agree
to that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And we may not, so
you know all of these
MS. MONTEFORTE:
MEMBER HORNING:
are possible.
Well, we would --
Did you tell me they
could not have a driveway on North Ba~rview
without the tennis court?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They can't. They
can't have it period.
MEMBER HORNING: Because of the
development --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
in that subdivision.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. ARNOFF: So then there's no access
permitted.
MEMBER HORNING: Did that come up at the
last hearing?
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: No, but --
MR. ARNOFF: No, it didn't, but you're
correct there is no access to North Bayview.
MS. MONTEFORTE: And as far as the
lighting, I mean even if you allow them to
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have
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There is no lighting.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No lighting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're not going to
allow any lighting.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
lighting on paths.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that I -- I don't think I
Except for ground
I'm not even sure
want to see that, to
be honest. I, you know, it's going to be
minimal. It's going to be a daytime use
whenever there's enough light to navigate that
terrain and play tennis, period.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Let me ask the Board,
do we want to have it staked out so we can all
take a look again? This is rectangle.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
don't --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
I'm okay with it. I
What?
I'm okay with it.
Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think frankly
because I don't think we're going to gain a
great deal more from adjourning to yet another
date so we can examine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah,
either.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I don't think so
I mean I think
we've heard plenty of testimony. I just want
to give the neighbors a chance to respond and
you to respond to the neighbors and then --
MR. ARNOFF: Fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- this
to make a decision. So --
MS. MONTEFORTE: So at least if I can
show it to them and they can --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely and you
can call our office and talk to Vicki anytime,
you know, if you have further questions.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So why don't we do
this, what timeframe do we want? We're
meeting on June l0th, that would be the
earliest that we could make a decision. We
have 62 days to do it in from today.
MR. ARNOFF: Ail right,
response in by --
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yeah,
and if they have anything to say
or --
Board needs
I'll show everyone
(inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There is no reason,
ma'am, to show them that fence. Trust me.
you.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Okay. All right.
MR. ARNOFF: I didn't want to show it to
Did anyone hear me say that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is diagonal
deer fencing (inaudible).
MR. ARNOFF: I've never seen anything
quite like it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Very artistic,
yeah.
MR. ARNOFF: I was saying when I looked
at it, I think this Board --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute, we
have to give you a timeframe. Can you have
your comments and your neighbors' comments,
a week from today?
MS. MONTEFORTE: I will definitely do my
best, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So that
would be --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's a week from
today. Memorial Day is on the 31st --
MS. MONTEFORTE: Friday is the 27tn --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 27th, 28tn-
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MR. ARNOFF: If she does that, I'll need
a day or two further, that's all. You're
meeting the 6th?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The l0th, but we
have to have time to write the (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, that's cutting it
close.
MR. AR/qOFF: Yeah, I'll have the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you know
what, if you have it in and if we're able to
get the decision written for June l0th that's
what we'll do.
MR. ARNOFF: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If not, we will
deliberate at the next regular meeting which
will be June 29th, is it?
BOARD SECRETARY: June 30th is the regular
meeting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: June 30th so it's
not that much farther.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yeah, it might be a
little difficult if people are on vacation
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: Why don't we put it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
until June 30th --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we have the
time, just let them get it in, you know --
BOARD SECRETARY: Today's the 20th --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a Wednesday
because we couldn't get this room on a
Thursday.
BOARD SECRETARY: Do you think by the end
of next week you would be able to see your
neighbors?
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yeah, I'll (inaudible).
BOARD SECRETARY: Because there's no
holiday until the --
MS. MONTEFORTE: I don't know if they
will (inaudible) letter.
BOARD SECRETARY: They can fax it, too,
that gives them a week. Is that okay?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, are we all
right with that?
MS. MONTEFORTE:
BOARD SECRETARY:
so the 28th,
What's the date?
Well, today's the 20th,
that's next Friday.
MS. MONTEFORTE:
BOARD SECRETARY:
MS. MONTEFORTE:
Well, I'll try.
So 5/25 --
5/25?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
BOARD SECRETARY: uh, 5/28/10 and the fax
number is 765-1064, the office number is 765-
2809 and they can call if they have questions.
They can fax us their comments.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, now just a
minute. If you're going to be in by the 28th,
Memorial Day is a Monday so forget that, what
would it be June
MR. ARNOFF: By that Friday.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: By that Friday.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The following
Friday.
BOARD SECRETARY: That's before our
hearing, June l0th·
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's the week before
that.
BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: So give me a date,
just give me a date by what time
BOARD SECRETARY: The
the first Friday, June 4th.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
first
week in June
you'll have your reply in the office by June
4th with a copy for the neighbors.
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MR. ARNOFF: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Fine. You could --
she's going to send it to him as well.
BOARD SECRETARY: Oh, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I am now
making a motion to close this hearing subject
to receipt of comments from the neighbors by
the 28tn of May and a response by Mr. Arnoff by
June 4tn; is there a second?
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
HEARING #6364 - Linda Hill
(Adjourned from 3/25/10.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Hill.
MR. HILL: I'm Mr. Hill representing my
wife, Linda.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. It would
appear that two things have happened. Did you
get a copy of the recent letter from the
neighbors?
MR. HILL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you came back
with an application that actually created a
survey where it suddenly was in the front
yard, realizing through our comments, the
office's comments that that was a different
variance. You went back and changed this to
what we now have, which is a relocation in the
side yard which is then, therefore, the same
Notice of Disapproval.
Let's see what was it, it was we have an
amended survey in the side yard at 39.4 feet;
is that correct?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's what I got,
from the front yard?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yup. 10 feet from the
side yard and it's being proposed to be in the
side yard.
MR. HILL: Yes. That's the front yard,
39.4 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's the front
yard setback.
MR. HILL: So the shed has got the same
setback.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And 10 feet from
the side yard to the shed and the agreement is
to create landscape screening.
MR. HILL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that it is not
visible to the neighbor on the adjacent
property.
MR. HILL: (Inaudible) so that the
neighbor is satisfied with the screening of
that as well.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, tell us what
your proposal to screen this is going to be.
MR. HILL: Well, (inaudible) me and my
landscaper and we talked about trees that will
grow in that environment. We (inaudible)
Leland Cypress and other names that slip my
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
mind since I'm not a landscaper, we talked
about possibly having my landscaper go on the
neighbor's property and limb-up some trees to
get some more light in there. I brought
irrigation down from another area to where the
screening will be and (inaudible) what we
resolved on is that (inaudible) will be
satisfied with what the landscaper says
(inaudible). We'll do that (inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HILL: We have to do some excavation
for the shed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: According to this
letter, the things they -- the varieties they
talked about arborvitae, holly, hemlock, and
skip Laurel is adequate height.
MR. HILL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Additionally, the
landscaper believes, if it's necessary,
they're permitting your landscaper to limb-up
some of the trees on their property that
provide adequate sunlight.
MR. HILL: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To ensure the
health of those plantings and additional
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
screening around the fence that's currently
enclosing the pool equipment.
MR. HILL: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, just so we're
clear. So we can condition the approval of
this location in the side yard with those two
conditions for landscape screening.
MR. HILL: Right. If after we do the
landscaping and everybody's happy and it
doesn't really make it years down the road, I
don't know what to do. I
for that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
can't be responsible
The Board actually
is able to put in a condition that says
continuously maintained, which basically means
that if some particular one arborvitae dies
you have to replace it.
MR. HILL: Well, the thing is this, I
made mention the last time that my landscaper
refused to give a guarantee for more than
three years. I told that to Mr. (inaudible).
He said landscapers never put their name on
something, so he understands that there's no
long term guarantee that these shrubs will
last. I would use reasonable efforts. As you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 20, 2010
know, I'm very proud of my property. I take
good care of it, but I don't think it's fair
for me to be in a position where the trees
keep growing and they don't have enough light
and it's an impossible situation to do what
I'm agreeing to do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. Okay, I
just wanted the record to reflect your point
of view about it and, you know, what the
neighbors said and so on.
MR. HILL: I'm probably going to spend
more money on the landscaping than the shed's
going to cost me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, Mountain
Laurel are pretty sturdy and they really are
good in shade and they're used to growing in
with deciduous trees.
good track record.
MR. HILL: Fine.
So they have a pretty
As I said, I'm willing
to do whatever looks good and will last cause
I don't like throwing money out.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course. Okay, I
have no further questions. Does anybody else
on the Board have further questions?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone in the
audience? I guess not cause there isn't
anyone in the audience.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you for your
cooperation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no further
comments, I make a motion to close the
hearing, reserve decision to a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
and accurate record of the
equipment and is a true
Hearings.
Signature
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
May 23, 2010
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