Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-04/22/2010 Hearing1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS ............................................ x Southold Town Hall Southold, New York ~OARDOFAPPEALS April 22, 2010 9:38 a.m. Board Members Present: LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Chairman/Member GER3IRD P. GOEHRINGER - Member JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member GEORGE HORNING - Member - recused himself from hearing at 10:40 to 11:40 - start to 2:19 p.m. KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney VICKI TOTH ZBA Secretary Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 INDEX OF HEARINGS Hearing: Bryan Weingart #6368 John Shack, Jr. #6363 CMEEC/F I Electric Corp. #6375 Southold Holding, LLC #6371 Kevin & Jeanine Faga #6367 Nick Mihalios #6361 S. Sachman & A. Quardrani #6366 Bruce Goldsmith #6362 Louis and Luba Corso #6316 Theodore C. Martz, Jr. #6344 Page: 3 4-27 28-90 91-104 105-107 108-154 155-174 175-190 191-217 218-252 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: order. Motion? BOARD MEMBER: So moved. BOARD MEMBER: Second. Call meeting to HEARING #6368 - Bryan Weingart 3 ~Request for a Variances from Code Section 20-124, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's May 28, 2009, Updated January 12, 2010, Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed demolition and construction of a single family dwelling, (1) less than the code required front yard setback of 35 feet, (2) more than code required maximum lot coverage of 20%, at: 1445 East Gillette Dr. and Cedar La., East Marion, NY. CTM #38-4-22." {Due to mechanical difficulty there was no recording of this hearing.) (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING ~6363 John Shack, Jr. MEMBER HORNING: ~Request for Variances from Code Section 280-116, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's October 15, 2009, amended December 4, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning demolition and construction of a single family dwelling, (1) less than the code required set back of 75 feet from a bulkhead, (This is a deviation of prior grant #5933 for alterations & additions) at: 1265 Shore Dr., Greenport, NY. CTM 47-2- 26-1." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, would you please state your name for the record? MR. SHACK: My name is John Shack. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning. MR. SHACK: Good morning. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so we have an application here to demolish an accessory garage and proposed 7.9-foot side yard setback. The previous variance that was granted -- MR. SHACK: I'm sorry. The garage will not change. We're going to -- there's a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 little lean-to on the side of it that is much closer to the property line and we agreed in the last process to take that down, to take down the little sort of like storage shed that was attached. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. You're proposing to retain the accessory building on your plan? Originally you were going to attach it to your house? MR. SHACK: That's the -- the garage you mean? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MR. SHACK: The garage was originally going to be attached to the house. It was a much bigger house, it was a two-family house. We were going to put an apartment above the garage and help us -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was withdrawn though. MR. S~{ACK: we couldn't do Yeah, that was -- they said it. So we withdrew it and as the stock market crashed and everything happened, the house was just way too expensive for us to build. So we sized it down considerably to a one-story modified cape. We Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 got approval for that, but the builders -- we're interviewing builders and everybody told us, and our current builder, (Inaudible), told us that it was highly likely that as we put in the footings that the current foundation would collapse and would put us in a position we had to come before you with a half finished house. So we decided to take the proactive way and change the plan. The only change from all the approved plans is that we're going to replace the foundation with a new foundation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It looks as though -- are you preserving this existing garage as you call it? MR. SHACK: The garage, we're going to -- yes, it's a garage. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You think you can renovate that sufficiently to preserve it? MR. SHACK: Yeah, all it needs is siding and a roof and a couple of new doors. It's kinda beat up, but it's structurally sound. The builder as already put in a new cement floor. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so the plans you are now proposing -- what is the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 true bulkhead and front yard setback? Is that 40.5 feet? I'm looking at a survey says 38 feet and your architectural drawings say 42 feet and 46 feet, respectively, and here we have 38 and 47. Do you see what I mean? Please state your name for the record. MRS. SHACK: Yes, my name is Marie Shack, S-H-A-C-K. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. It would appear that, I mean, we are probably bound to use the information in the survey rather than on this site plan. MRS. SHACK: When I spoke to Pat in the Building Department filling that out, she recommended that I put in the 38 to make sure that when the building is completed that it's really within the proposal just in case something happens. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The 47 is to the tide line, it's not to the bulkhead; is that correct ? MRS. SHACK: Yes, right. And I had a new survey made to show the difference between the house and the bulkhead and the bulkhead and the tide line. I did that in December before Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 I submitted -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: December 4th, that's this one. MRS. SHACK: Yes, um-hmm. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: So the setback from the bulkhead as proposed is 38 feet, correct? MRS. SHACK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And what other nonconformities do we have here? I think that's it. Where is your septic going? Is that going to be going all in front here? MRS. SHACK: In the front and that should be indicated on the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is. MRS. SHACK: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Drywells. MRS. SHACK: And I had spent the summer renewing our building permit this summer and that had gotten approved. So we're just sort of taking the advice of our contractor. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think it's good advice. MRS. SHACK: Well, we thought it was good advice and if you saw our house -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We've been there. I've been there three times. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we have. We've all seen it. We've been there. MRS. SHACK: You can understand why we need -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Some TLC. MRS. SHACK: Yeah. I don't even think that's going to work. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's kind of why I asked about your garage. It didn't look like it was very salvageable to me. MRS. SHACK: Yeah. The inside is really structurally strong. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The structure is all right and the slab is okay? MRS. SHACK: Yeah, everything -- the slab is okay. Well, we put a new slab in and the structure is good, so -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, as long as you remove that little shed piece so you have a side yard -- MRS. SHACK: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you're fine. All right, any questions? Does anyone -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER HORNING: I have some. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, hold on one second, George. Vicki says that we need some paperwork from you. BOARD SECRETARY: We need the originals that you've got. MRS. SHACK: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're welcome. Do you have everything? George? MEMBER HORNING: You're set. Good. Okay, sure. I met with the applicants this morning actually. The Town Trustees' permit, I didn't have a copy in my file. I'm requesting one so I can look at it. Are you representing yourself? MRS. SHACK: Yes, we are. Our contractor recently lost his stepfather, so he couldn't make it here today, and our architect had two doctors' appointments so he couldn't make it here today. At one point, I had asked Pat, do I need somebody, she said no, because you know when we've been through this process, you know, even the bigger house was approved and we're just continuing to make it smaller. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER HORNING: Right. You've told me that a couple of times and I -- MRS. SHACK: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: Reading the file though I have to take a little bit exception to that because what was approved was -- actually you got denials and you were granted alternate relief. MRS. SHACK: Right. MEMBER HORNING: Isn't that true? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right. MRS. SHACK: We took off requesting the apartment over the garage. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we also granted a minimum 40-foot setback from the bulkhead and a 9-foot easterly side yard setback. The 9-foot is being maintained. MRS. SHACK: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But in that previous decision we wanted to see 40 feet from the bulkhead and now you -- that's why I asked about the difference between the site plan and the survey. at 38 feet. MR. SHACK: The survey is showing it What I don't understand is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that we don't have -- the original permit. except some drawings. it's not changed from Nothing has changed I don't -- the physical structure is not expanded one iota. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm -- I believe you, totally. MR. SHACK: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What I'm trying to do is make sure our paperwork is accurate because you know we have this plan that's showing it at 42 feet, you know, the architectural plan, the site plan, which was done by Robert Basilino, okay, and licensed architects can stamp drawings and that has a legal -- MEMBER HORNING: Well, doesn't that go to the core of why the applicant is here? In other words, he was granted a variance in 2006 for a 40-foot setback and now you're applying for a variance for a 38-foot setback. I mean, isn't that why you're here? MR. SHACK: No, MEMBER HORNING: then? MR. SHACK: it's not. Let me -- Well, why are you here Because they told us we need Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to because we're replacing -- we're going to change -- replace the foundation. We have not changed the drawing one iota. That was -- what was approved is what is going to be built. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what may be the case here in looking at pointing this out, the 38 feet are to the steps. BOARD SECRETARY: setbacks to steps. this, Vicki's on the survey And we don't count CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, steps are not included in a setback. It's possible though it's not correctly drawn. It says here, "deck to bulkhead". It's showing it as 40 feet. The arrow shows it to the steps, but the notation says, ~deck to bulkhead" at 42 feet, which would indicate that the steps themselves would then be the difference between 42 and 38. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, but the steps are extremely extensive. These are not just regular steps. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: I think George has the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 right idea here. It was 40 feet. MR. SHACK: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: And we didn't make the determination that it's now 38, the Building Inspector -- what we -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The surveyor did. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- called you here for, the Building Inspector made that decision cause he disapproved it based on whatever he - - whatever information he had. Now, I mean you're here for a new variance, that's basically what you're here for and while I have no objection to it, I think that we need to be clear that whatever decision we based our -- I should say whatever information we based our decision on has to be clear. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Exactly. MEMBER DINIZIO: I think Leslie has got a good point that either we get Pat Conklin in here and she testifies that here's what I based my decision on and it is indeed 38 feet or we just grant you 38 feet. We can do it either way. I just don't think that -- I know you're taken by surprise about, you know, you've probably never done anything to the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 plans, but certainly it changed, there's no doubt about it, from what we granted in, I forgot what year -- I may not have been on the Board then -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 2006. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and what we're looking at right now. MRS. SHACK: Well, not only was it granted in 2006 with those plans, but it was also extended. I had to -- because it has expired this summer, I extended the building permit and -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. MR. SHACK: As far as we are aware, okay, there's absolutely no change in the plans since the approved plan. This is my understanding at this point that we submitted the only difference and I showed that to the (Inaudible) when she showed it to the Board people that helped us put this together was that we never -- the only thing we're changing from the original approved plan, is the new versus old foundation. Okay, we're not changing -- now if some drawings have changed, it's really frustrating to me. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: drawings changed? same file and pull go? MRS. SHACK: Well, are the drawings here. Well, did you have the I -- did you just go to the them out and say here we I did have -- these I had Bob put in -- no, I don't think I did have him change them. Yeah, 9/15/09. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's after our decision. What did you change? MRS. SHACK: I think just showing that it was a new foundation, that's what he -- that's the only thing that we had asked him to change, was that now we were going to put in a new foundation and he did that for us and so these were the plans that I submitted to the Board of Trustees that have approved these plans. So if he did those changes -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Do you have that is that the plan that the Trustees with you, approved? MRS. SHACK: I do, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Because we're trying to make sure that all agencies that are involved in reviews have the same drawings. I PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 just want to make sure that this is what we -- Yup, this is what we have. Okay, all right, it's exactly the same as what we've got. Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What's the date on that, 9/15/097 MRS. SHACK: 9/15/09. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what we have now. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what we have now. MEMBER DINIZIO: Is that what we had in '067 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, what we had in '06 I believe was -- MRS. SHACK: (Inaudible) going around the old foundation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- was the old plan, which was this, and that shows 40 foot. Okay? Right? MEMBER HORNING: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, it was not - it was probably not measured from the closest point, at that time, however, we can do a couple of things here. We can do a couple of things here. We can grant PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 alternative relief at 40 feet again. We can if that's where your foundation is, that's where the deck is, you're fine. You just build it where you were going to build it anyway or we can get an amended Notice of Disapproval that says, in fact, this is being measured from the steps and the steps count because they're beyond a certain number of square feet. You see steps don't count if they're under a certain number of square feet. Once they get over a certain number of square feet, which looks like the case here, cause you've got them kind of wrapping all around, then they become part of the setback. Then they become a structure that we include and it may be that that's exactly what happened, but that's the Building Department's interpretation. So if you want to, we can also adjourn for, you know, a little while and have you go over to talk to Pat Conklin about it and see what you want to work -- MRS. SHACK: We'd be very happy with the 40 feet. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah? MRS. SHACK: Yeah, very happy with the 40 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine and then the surveyor will just lay it out that way -- MRS. SHACK: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- in the field. MR. SHACK: takes -- MRS. SHACK: takes to do it. We'll adjust whatever it We'll adjust to whatever it No problem whatsoever. MEMBER HORNING: That's the simplest solution. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we'll just do that way. MEMBER HORNING: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll reaffirm the original decision. it MR. SHACK: Okay. MRS. SHACK: Thank you. MR. SHACK: With the -- MRS. SHACK: New foundation. MR. SHACK: -- new foundation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. Yeah, but I mean obviously we have to deliberate and we PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 have to write a decision. We're not doing that here, but it would appear that there seems to be consensus among all parties that this is an appropriate way to proceed. So the notice says 38 and we will go back to the 40 feet in the original decision and -- Are there any other questions that the Board has? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone in the audience that would like to address this application? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just have a quick question. The survey that's dated December 4, 2009 by John Metzer, that shows the 38 feet. The proposed new construction is supposed to be what is reflected here in the architectural plans, it doesn't look the same to me. So I guess maybe that's where the error is. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: See that might be, yeah. It's not the -- it's not consistent information. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the architectural plans, the proposed house with a foundation, I don't think was correctly transposed onto the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 survey that was submitted to the Building Department indicating the 38 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's exactly right. MR. SHACK: (Inaudible) application. I was down here in December. There was something missing from my application -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you just speak into the mike? MR. SHACK: I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Directly into the mike because otherwise we won't pick it up in the -- MR. SHACK: No problem. There was something missing from the application when we came down to file it in December and Marie went to the builder and got him after lunch -- the surveyor, after lunch, and he quickly put together what they were -- what was missing and apparently that's where all the confusion is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. SHACK: -- because that's different. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. MR. SHACK: Okay. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. SHACK: So I don't know, but I'm happy to do -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We may request that because we are working very diligently to make sure that our records reflect surveys that confirm our decisions, so we may request, and this will happen in deliberation, granting this conditional upon, you know, we may ask for another survey. shows it at 40 feet we can stamp that's reflects the nature We may ask for one that so that we have a drawing a final drawing that of our decision. MR. SHACK: Well, that -- this one, the big one that we're looking at, that wouldn't suffice for that? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that doesn't say 40 either, that says 42. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Why don't we just request it? MR. SHACK: That's fine. Whatever you want. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know what -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I just think we should have the person who did the denial confirm PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that whatever it is, it doesn't really make a difference if it's 40 or 38 or whatever. I mean let's just confirm that this is what it is, this is what the code says it is based on that survey or whatever she used, certainly, I'm assuming. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, she did. MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, if she says it's 38 feet, it's 38 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From the surveyor's point, it's 38 feet. MEMBER DINIZIO: As being part of the structure and it could be. You know, usually the steps are just, you know, 4-foot step down and this looks like an entire wraparound. It's more than, you know, 6 inches off the ground, so who knows maybe that's part of the structure thing. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: is. MEMBER DINIZIO: That could be different from 2006 -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you might be right. MEMBER DINIZIO: It could be completely PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 I think it probably 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 interpreted different (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do we need another survey? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All they need to do is update the present survey. MEMBER DINIZIO: I think this survey is correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, if it's correct then it doesn't need to be updated. MR. SHACK: We'll update it. MEMBER DINIZIO: The person that's doing the survey doesn't have the power to say whether or not those steps are building or just on the ground. MRS. SHACK: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: The Building Inspector, the person who did this, has the power to say what it is and she has spoken to us, as far as I'm concerned, in the Notice of Disapproval. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's right, she called it out at 38 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that isn't the issue. What I'm trying to say is if we are going to grant alternative relief at 40 feet I would like to have in the record a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 final survey that shows 48 feet that is, in fact -- MR. SHACK: 40 feet. MRS. SHACK: 40 feet. to the deck if MEMBER HORNING: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, 40 feet, sorry. 40 feet to the -- or to the steps. MEMBER HORNING: Yes, thank you, Leslie. MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think that's the question though, Leslie. The question is whatever we base our decision on, will -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, it will be what's in here. MEMBER DINIZIO: It won't be 38 feet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, it will. MEMBER DINIZIO: Let's just grant them alternate relief -- we just gotta grant them relief. It's simple as that. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We can put in the decision that it's 40 feet to the deck and 38 feet from the steps if you -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, because of the steps. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: And make it 38 feet, you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 know. If we want to clarify that, it's fine. MRS. SHACK: Thank you. MEMBER DINIZIO: Sorry. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If we can state it that -- I'm attempting to make sure that we don't proceed on decisions without drawings that reflect precisely what those decisions involve. Now, if we want to word it that way and assume that 38 feet to -- the steps are considered a structure in this case, that's the difference. because there's steps -- I mean, Steps generally are not, but so many square feet in these we're not trying to get you to change your plans, understand what we're trying to do is make this our absolutely legal and careful reflection of a decision. That's all. MRS. SHACK: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nothing more. So that's what this discussion is really about. Ail right, we will handle it. If we require anything additional, we will not -- I'm not going to suggest that we close the hearing subject to receipt of additional information because it would appear that the Board does Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not intend that that be required. So we will just, if there are no further comments from the audience or from the -- no, okay. Then I'll make a motion to close this hearing reserving decision to later date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING ~6375 - CMEEC/F I Electric Corp. MEMBER DINIZIO: "Applicants request a Special Exception under Section 20-13B(6), public utility, installation of an emergency generator and request for relief from 280-105B, fence at than the code required height of 6-1/2 more feet, NY. at 1866 Central Ave., CTM 6-8-7&3.2." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fishers Island, Okay, George, did you wish to put something into the record? MEMBER HORNING: Right, what I want to say for the record is that I am an employee of the Fisher's Island Utility Company through its umbrella Fisher's Island Telephone Corporation and I must recuse myself from the case due to a conflict of CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So noted. interest. Thank you, George. Now, would you please stand by the microphone so we can hear you on the tape? State your name. MR. WARN: Good morning. My name is John Warn. I'm a project manager with Connecticut Municipal Electric Energy Cooperative from PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Norfork, Connecticut. CMEEC as I'll use from now on cause the full name is a mouth full. CMEEC is a non- profit cooperative that's owned by half a dozen small municipal, and in some cases, private utilities that service communities in eastern Connecticut and some in central Connecticut. The cooperative's purpose is primarily buying and selling wholesale power with the ISO New England grid. Joining together in a co-op many of these smaller utilities will have better purchasing power when it comes to the buying and selling of that power. CMEEC also operates diesel generators and one gas turbine facility to generate power within the local communities as well as generate power that could be dispatched into the grid as well. I have a Power Point presentation. I'm going to go very quickly through the introductory pieces and then we can get into the issues as we go through. The purpose for the Power Point presentation is really because we have pictures to help understand the nature of the site and the nature of the project. Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3O ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 This project for CMEEC is to install 20 generators distributed throughout half a dozen communities and 11 different sites, primarily to do peek -- these generators aren't designed to run all the time. Our permit for emissions only allows 1200 hours a year of operation. The operative cycle that we expect will be about 300 hours a year, so we try to anticipate when the peaks will be in our power group. In doing that, we determine, okay, Tuesday afternoon at 5:00 it looks like the peak is going to hit for this month and they will run the machines to capture the peak. If we're fortunate in capturing the peak and the weather cools off for the rest of the month, it won't run very much that month. Every month we may have to run several days in a row in order to capture the exact peak. If we can share the power demand on the grid, if there is a peak, then that really affects the wholesale rates that are used and it helps the grid as well to deal with the peak demand. For Fishers Island the back-up emergency nature of this project is particularly important in that each of these units, being Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 within a local distribution grid, can be used any time in the event of a wind storm, ice storm or something that causes disconnect from the New England grid. In the Fishers Island case, there is no back-up power, they're entirely served by Groton utilities through two underwater cables that run parallel that come from Groton over to Fishers Island. There's no connection between Fishers Island and any New York entity with respect to electrical power. As I mentioned, we have 20 units at several sites. Some sites have one unit. The largest site has four units, that's the Mohegan Tribal utility in Uncasville, Connecticut. The Fishers Island installation will be a single unit installation. These are some of the other units that we have in CMEEC. I just put that up to show that we're experienced in asset management, large scale projects, dealing with machinery and equipment related to electrical power generation. The site is an existing electric utility that's part of the Fishers Island utility Company. This is the scene where the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Right now it's cable reels, the poles, a generators will go. transformer storage, lay down area for poles. Ail of that material is going to be moved further back up into the site and the generator will go in. Behind that pole you see in the background is where we will connect electrically into the Fishers Island grid and then behind that you see the substation. Just to the left of the picture you can see a little bit of water, it's on West Harbor. The generator building is right on Central Avenue, which overlooks the harbor. MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I interrupt you just a second cause I went over to the site? These transformers are not there right now; is that correct, George? MR. HORNING: (Sitting in audience.) They're back up. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, pictures right now those from that location. MR. HORNING: (Inaudible) MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, picture of it and, honestly, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 but I mean in the transformers are gone we looked at. I mean I got a it's pretty clear 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 there now and -- because I think you're going to go to another picture that's going to show a different direction and I -- MR. WARN: This is basically what we're replacing and I haven't been out there in a while. We have not done any site work yet. So if the utility has moved that, then that's good to know. MR. HORNING: the picture though. You might ask the date of MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, no, no. I just want -- cause I have pictures that I'm going to give you and they're quite different. It looks quite different from this. MR. WARN: In a better way or negative way? MEMBER DINIZIO: negative connotation, No, no. There's no just this is where you're going to be putting it -- MR. WARN: I can illustrate why this is a very good site. It is a utility and there's a good substation connection that we can come in. In our project we'll take underground cables. All our cables associated with the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 project, power out of the generator, connections to a site service transformer that gets installed and will all run in duct banks to that pole and we'll use risers up the poles for the connection. So we won't add any overhead wiring or anything. The bluff, we want to -- we're right next to the bluff, but we don't want -- our plans shows we're not going to cut into that bluff. We don't want to start dealing with bulkheads along the bluff or affect drainage problems, you know, associated with that. This is an overhead view when everything was there. Again, showing this is behind the generator building. This view, and we'll see some (inaudible), you can see the driveway access into the back behind the generator is wide open and that does create a lane from the northeast where somebody sailing by or walking down the road isn't going to see this generator. It's pretty well hidden from directly in front of the building or anything to the south. We have several -- three tanks of interest for which we've submitted PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 applications to Suffolk County. The applications went in in January, they've been there about 100 days. I spoke with Mr. Ken Clooney, who is the engineer dealing with this project at the Suffolk County Department of Health. He has no issues and he conveyed to me the permits would be issued soon. I have no prediction of what soon is. I'll show you the three tanks. We did need a variance for one tank, which is the base fuel tank, from Suffolk County, that variance has been issued. The variance on the base tank dealt with the permits, they really only want diesel fuel tanks up to 250 gallons. So any tank larger than 250 gallons requires a variance, which is what we haven't received. The base tank is 4200 gallons ultra low sulfur diesel. It's just about a day's worth, if we ran it flat out under emergency conditions for 24 hours, that's about a day's worth of fuel. So if we had to run it for a few weeks say to support the island as the only source of power, we'd be fueling the unit everyday just to keep it going. That one unit is capable of powering Fishers Island at all of the recent Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 peaks. Someday in the future it may grow beyond that. The lows may grow beyond that. There's a day tank, 150 gallons of fuel. That's just simply an internal tank within the fuel system that provides the net suction head to the fuel pump on the engine's positive engine. Urea is a fairly common industrial chemical. We us a 40-percent solution of urea. It's used in fertilizers other manufacturing processes. Our bodies produce urea. It's related chemically to ammonia and the reason, it's more benign to handle than ammonia and so we use that injected into the exhaust stream on a catalytic converter system that's not show here and under the heated exhaust the urea then converts to ammonia, which reacts with the exhaust to remove nitrous oxide in the various forms. The tank is constructed to UL 142 standards. The UL 142 dealing with base tanks for fuel storage are double wall instrumented, lots of features associated with the tanks. They're very strongly constructed. You can see some of the construction. The urea tank Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 also is a cross-linked fiberglass polyethylene design. It has a rupture tank surrounding the inner tank, but it doesn't meet the standards for Suffolk County in terms of two-tank bulkhead protection if there was a rupture of the inner tank. Suffolk County wanted a steel -- they won't accept two fiberglass barriers. So we built a basin within which this tank sits at the Fishers Island -- we're going to build at the Fishers Island site and that basin is capable of taking over ll0-percent of the total volume of the urea tank should the urea tank fail through both of those protective walls, it will all be contained within the basin. The tank, the inner tank and the basin are all instrumented and alarmed both locally and at a remote station. That's part of the application that's being reviewed is the protection around the urea. Urea is relatively benign, but nonetheless we'll make sure none of it enters the environment. This is a better look at the generator. It's a pretty good sized unit. It's about 30- 1/2 feet wide and 50 feet long and about 15 PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 feet high. I'll two that size is of what's inside show you on the next slide or large matter related to first the enclosure, but also the noise abatement measures with a bigger container we can do more things to contain and muffle and smooth out the noises of the operation of the unit. The fueling station is fully enclosed. On the Fishers Island unit, that box you see on the end of the fueling station will actually be embedded and be flush with the outer wall of the unit, that's part of what Suffolk County has asked us to do. The catalytic reduction system, again, is a urea based system where it has particulate filters blocks installed as well as catalytic blocks using a vanadium based catalyst. Under the heat of the engine, the urea converts to ammonia in the exhaust stream and it scrubs out nitrous oxide. You can see the stack testing paths both in initial construction as well as periodic testing later. We do demonstrations for the state I'm sure with stack testing showing what the actual exhaust is. We've got some pretty Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 tight specifications where it has to be. This is a fueling station design. It's a 7-gallon funnel that surrounds the connection and that funnel has a drain directed back to the tank. So if there's any dripping or -- I've seen several fueling operations and I haven't seen any dripping yet, but should something drip as a hose connected or disconnected, it's drains to the tank. environment. We have a spill caught in that funnel and So it will not enter the plan, SPCC plan as well as spill kits on site. Those kits contain absorbent materials, berms, shovels, robes, rubber gloves, all the things you might expect to need in the event of a spill. There's a Spill Prevention Controls and Countermeasures plan. That's what we've hired Environmental Consulting Engineers, they're producing these plans for us and it's about a 50-page document. It covers everything about the federal law with respect to handling fuel and oil spills as well as our internal procedures, who to notify, what to do, immediate response actions, as well as required routine internal PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 and external inspections that are made of the tanks. I'm sure as the -- your agents, we don't want to run into a problem or some fitting that's leaking or something that's not tended to that might lead to a release of the oil. This plan deals with the fuel oil. There's about 110 gallons of lube oil contained within the machine. The lube oil stuff, we don't store lube oil on the site and also there's a station service transformer that has 152 gallons of mineral oil built into the transformer as part of the cooling mechanism for that transformer and the station service transformer sits in a concrete vault surrounded by crushed stone. So if any of that oil were to leak out, first of all, it would be a bad day and the transformer if the oil were to come out it would be contained within the vault that it sits on. The next issue that comes up often is concerns of noise. Some of these are right in the middle of downtown communities, some are near apartment buildings. The one on Fishers Island is remote from most people and it's behind a utility building, but there is a home PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 back behind that site. Some of the design features, a lot of it has to do with the air flow through the unit. To cool this unit, just like your car, you know, you take air in through the grill and the fans blow it across the radiator elements and then the air goes out. If you sit next to a running parked car, you can hear the engine working, but you're also going to hear that air flow. There's over 100,000 cubic feet per minute of air flow running through this machine and four big fans, 40 horse power motors on each of the fans, so it moves a lot of air and there's extended hoods. The size of the unit allows a bigger cross section area by which you move the air into the machine. You know, so if you have a bigger area you can move just more air at a lower velocity than if it were smaller. If we smaller intake hoods they would be -- you'd really hear the whistling through the intake louvers. There are motor operated louvers in here that regulate the amount of air that comes and goes. The size of the unit also allows spring PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 mounting the engine, so it's not hard mounted to base of the unit and that decouples a lot of the mechanical vibrations of the unit. The exhaust plenum you can see where the air is directed upward. Instead of having all -- this is all the air being blown by the fans to the radiators. Instead of having that blasted out the side or the end of the unit, it's directed upward so all the noise associated with that airflow also goes up. The exhaust system is fairly tortured in the sense that it comes up, swings around and goes through a volume chamber, it goes through the diesel particulate filters and then goes through the catalytic converter, swings around and up to the stack. There's no specific muffler unit, but there's muffling action takes place in that I don't know how many feet that is it's roughly 25 feet of exhaust. So that helps mitigate the exhaust fumes as well. The walls are 5 inches thick, they're insulated. So that any airborn noise in there from the engine gets absorbed in the wall. So you clearly can hear the unit running, if it's running, but generally it's certainly not, in PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 our view, distasteful or unusual as a piece of infrastructure and it has a -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to comment that the arrows that you saw there, there's a big hole on the top and that's where there's four 40-inch fans that pull air through there. exhaust. Keep that in mind because that you see, there's a house up That's the that bluff there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not the house that George showed me, it's the doctor's house, George. That is -- in other words you couldn't see it cause we were actually looking at it, but you're going to need to consider, remember this picture when you see his picture of where the house is. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: And we may need to mitigate that in some way. Now, I don't know if you have any options right now you'd like to discuss that's mitigating that -- MR. WARN: I believe I'll -- when we get to site plan we put that in more toward the generator building than towards the house. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. MR. WARN: But we'll know when I get to site plan, I think that's what we did. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MR. WARN: So that's about it. We did some testing trying to figure out, you know, what are the noises associated with this and as part of that testing we hired a group of scientists to come by with instruments at a test cell down where the engines are manufactured and generally in the 60-70 dbs a typical room, you know, people talking, conversation, that's kind of the world we live in, you know, maybe in the 1 to 5,000 Hertz reading, a very quiet day in the library where people are reading (inaudible) you're standing near the tracks and the train goes roaring by you could get up into the 90s. If you go to a rock concert, it's probably 180 or something. Db is a log rhythm of a ratio so none of these numbers are unique. Typically, 6 Db doubles the energy that's being kept by your ears. In the test cell, readings were taken, a couple of them inside the generator unit and then 15 feet around the generator unit. What PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 these numbers show is in the background of the mid-60s running the generator and then holding up a noise measurement device it didn't significantly change the background. In fact, you can see the numbers are zero. That doesn't mean you can't hear the generator, it just means that the energy from the generator will power (inaudible) energy that's there and given that the idea that this is a logarithmic ratio that didn't see significant change on the meter. So that's good. On the other hand, any more than 15 feet from this unit started to test all clear when they were running it and inside the unit it was up in 1200s. I believe you had -- did you get inside the generator -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I had them start it up and -- I have a recording of it, but if you want to try it later we'll do it later on. MR. WARN: Sure, yeah. So if you're saying inside the unit is 150 Db, if you're outside 50 feet away is the design spec it should be down below 65 Db. That (a) is just simply the band, it's the technical -- it Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 defines how sound is measured. You know, like the Y-band. So they actually smoothed out over the band. You'll still hear the fans. You'll hear the throbbing of the engine, but they may or may not actually add a lot to the total sum of the energy in that Y-band. Typically running in the afternoon might be 300 hours a year, that's 100 days per year. We pick an average 3-hour run to try to capture the peak. So every few days they'll probably (inaudible) run for four days in a row and then three weeks go by it doesn't run. It's really depending upon the demand being put on the New England grid and whether the peaks are likely to come that day or not. I think I've covered this. We did conduct a field trip, it was last June. I wasn't there, but the person who lives in the doctor's house or lived there then was invited down. They took measurements and at the time there was no generator there, but the acoustic scientists had a noise simulation machine. You know, that's some kind of machine you can kind of crank it up and demonstrate the levels and -- so for that open house that was held by PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the utility there was interest, but not adverse reaction. It was really a stimulation to just try to get that discussion going. We did go with a higher bidder. We had other people that would make enclosures for us for less money, but they were smaller and didn't have these acoustic mitigation features. So we went with this acoustic sheet metal company and they're pretty good. Back behind the tree you can see the roofline, that is the doctor's house, I believe. Jim, is that the one you were -- MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the one. MR. WARN: Yes. Yes, that's right. So you can see there's two things that happen. Ail that stuff is now right in front of that house, you know, on the upper part of the site and then the generator can be where all that gear is. So it's not far away. Again, just kind of repeating, this is a utility function in a utility yard and I think that applies to the concept of whether the Special Exception is appropriate or not. MEMBER DINIZIO: Do you see where that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 arrow is pointing? That's an 8-foot fence that they already have. An 8-foot fence that CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, they already have one? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, around the transformer. I mean you would not want to have anything less than that around a transformer. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Understood. Yeah, yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: But part of our application is that fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I was going to talk about that, too. MR. WARN: Yes, that's an issue and as I mentioned, we're behind a building and from the south or the east unless you're really determined to find it, you wouldn't -- a casual visitor wouldn't know that generator back there. Looking down the driveway they would definitely be able to see it. One the site plan, because there is a drainage issue, it's kind of a horseshoe. If you look at the contour lines it's a perfect PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 bowl. It just dumps everything in a sheet down on Central Avenue and so we're -- there's this drainage issue that I'll mention when we can and we're going to be down in here. Here's the bluff. I don't think we're going to add to the runoff issues, but we may be able to do some things that could help. We're working with Mr. Richter, the Town Engineer, and our consulting engineers and we've started a stormwater runoff study. I think I'll have the results in about a week. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. You know, I've spoken to -- I asked Mr. Richter to give us some comments regarding on-site drainage plan. MR. WARN: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Because there is such a significant issue there, so much so that in your application you say that the base has to be raised 2-1/2 feet above the existing grade because of some of those problems with flooding conditions. He did tell me that your engineer was developing a plan. So I asked him to hold off until that plan was available so that he could review it and provide PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 comments to this Board -- MR. W~2~N: Good. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- based upon that plan. So that's in the works. MR. WARN: We're going to -- he's going to do calculations for what the site looks like now with a nominal 2-inch rainfall in 24 hours. What it looks like if we build per our plan and then what it looks like if we try to do something perhaps a catch basin would slow some of that down and allow it to soak into the groundwater so -- and we're prepared to, you know, since there is a construction project proposed, if there's something we could do, we might as well pitch in and do it. In our filings with the New York State DEC, we have received the air vent permit and we've received a negative declaration on a whole host of issues. It's in the package. And they essentially looked at what we were doing and came to the conclusion that it was benign with respect to the environment. Ms. Kendra Plath is also -- she's the person at the DEC that we've been in touch with. If you have questions, she -- that's all really fine Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 51 wrapping it up and has no issue the permit soon. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: issues and will Okay. MR. WARN: But I have no clue what soon is other than I was told it took about 90 days and we're about 100 days into the process. So CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. WARN: There have been -- they did authorize the variance that went along with the application for the larger tank, larger PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 type, but they look at everything, waterfowl migration, they look at noise. They looked at a -- they completed a coastal assessment form as part of their findings and again, we were issued a negative declaration. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I just confirm, you have the New York DEC Emissions permit? MR. WARN: We do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have that. And Suffolk County hazardous material storage facility permit? MR. WARN: We -- the application is in, we do not have the permit. I spoke with Mr. Clooney about 10 days ago who said he's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 than 250 gallons. So our sense is that it's proceeding normally and nearly to the point of issuance and this is the cover letter of our New York DEC air permit that was received in early March. Yeah, that is -- you see the -- this is the site plan with generator installed and this part here is that exhaust hood going upward. So we did make an effort in any case to put that, rather than on this end, put it closer to the utility building than the upland parts of the lot. Where a catch basin might go in is somewhere in here. Now there's all - - there's a septic that's been there for many years. Bob Wahl who we're working with, the President of the Electric Corporation, we may have some issues with that septic tank. This is the basin to catch -- where the urea tank is sitting in the basin that'll capture the urea in the event of a leak, but I -- if we do some sort of a storm collection, a drywell or something, it would probably be in there. So we just have to work through it. As we've stated, we've requested a variance for the height of the security fence PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 around. The fence we're proposing is similar to the 8-foot fence that exists now around the substation that's on the same site. Here's another look at the existing and that 8-foot fence is really 7-feet of fabric, chainlink above fabric with the 3 strands of barbed wire it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I -- MR. WARN: This is recommended by most of the guidebooks, the civil engineering guidebooks and the electrical construction guidebooks, at 8 feet. After that last meeting, I went and broke out the National Electric Code and I found this, that a 7-foot fence is -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's required. MR. WARN: -- the minimum. They do specify, they recommend 8, but the 7-foot is the minimum. That would be 6 feet of fabric plus 3 strands of barbed wire. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me mention while we're on this, normally an application for an area variance for a fence height would require a separate application, but if you take a look at general standards 280-142 for PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Special Exception C, we have, I believe, the jurisdiction to examine that fence within that context which states that the safety, health, welfare, comfort, convenience or the order of the Town will not be adversely affected by the proposed use in its location. Certainly a nationally required security fence of that nature would, I believe, be a protection for the safety of the public. So I think we can proceed safely in examining that fence height within that jurisdiction rather than a separate application for a barrier. MR. WARN: I appreciate it. Even though a 7-foot fence by the National Code is the minimum allowable, we're requesting -- there's the property with our fence drawn -- we're requesting an 8-foot fence. It's consistent with what's there and CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, that's fine. MR. WARN: -- would feel good if on a weekend. it's just, some kids CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: you know, no one climbed in there Absolutely not. MR. WARN: 8,320 volts. Not that you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 could put your hand on 8,000, but I did some crazy things when I was a kid, I know. So stormwater runoff is -- this is one of these satellite aerial of the community. You can see it's a perfect collection basin. I don't think much gets down this way. People more familiar with the site think it just kind of runs down that parking lot and then winds up heading down Central Avenue Wahl has described that, and I Richter as well, as Lake Mobil, and then Bob think Mr. there's a gas station here and somewhere down in here after a heavy rain it fills up and the Town is working on some sort of a plan. what can we do to mitigate that. do something upland in this area, probably be in the parking lot to slow it down, you know, the rate at which water accumulates, that might be helpful. We have a lot of crushed stone that's going in around the -- between the fence line and the generator pad that perhaps will serve to slowdown and provide a path for absorption of some of that water into the ground. That dirt's packed down pretty well there. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 YOU know, So if we can it would 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 So here's another view from the dock. Again, it's not a significant impact on the view from the east and south. The -- if you're walking down slowly down Central Avenue, it doesn't show very well, I did put a little Power Point cartoon thing in there that's roughly the generator, that's the best it's going to be. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That stack is about MR. WARN: The generator -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That stack is about 25 feet high; is it not? MR. WARN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah and the generator itself is 157 MR. WARN: The generator is 15. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Plus 2-1/2 feet. MR. WARN: It's raised a couple of feet, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, so that's going to be pretty high up. MR. WARN: It does show there very well. The generator, green part, is that little rectangle is intended to be the catalytic PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 converter and the stack sticking out. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This might be an appropriate time to mention that we did receive recently, and you'll get a copy if you haven't already, a letter from the LWRP coordinator indicating that it is consistent with the LWRP; however, they recommend, and this is what I want to mention to you, significant screening to protect view sheds, evergreen screening primarily. Simply so that the -- you need Leland Cypress, you're going to need something that's going to grow really tall if we're going to protect the views that are currently there because it is a very large bulky industrial structure and right now you have a harbor and you have -- it's on the scale of Central Avenue. So how would you feel about that? MR. WARN: We'd be open to it. In fact, after the Planning Board meeting I spoke with Mr. Wahl who's the president of the utility company, Electric Corporation out there, he's meeting today with the local landscaper on Fishers Island. They're walking the site. We're more than happy to plant whatever would PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 help. I think the issue for Mr. Wahl is how does he plant things in the driveway? You know that opening needs -- there's trucks with trailers and telephone poles coming in and out of there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MR. WARN: Equipment, Right. bucket trucks, that's his garage, the lower building of the three. So that's why he's walking the site today with a landscaper and we'll support whatever is appropriate -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you could produce a landscape plan to protect view sheds? MR. WARN: to respect the utility equipment that has to go in and out behind that building. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure, sure. Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Are you finished with the Planning Board or no? You're not finished? MR. WARN: Umm, I don't know. I've made two presentations, also a presentation to the Architectural Committee. I don't -- We'll do what we can. We have access that is needed for the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Did they ask for -- did they ask for a landscape plan? MR. WARN: No. Ms. Kristy Windsor is the contact person I've been working with there. I'll try to find out and get back to you. I don't know. My sense is we're done, but these things do go on. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay -- MR. WARN: But we're -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can because LWRP in the letter approved you as well as site plan, we certainly can require or request landscape screening plan to protect view sheds there, it's in our jurisdiction. MR. WARN: And we'd be delighted to participate and get you a plan and work something out. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just -- I'd feel more comfortable with the Planning Board handling that. I mean certainly we can require it, but as far as what it should be -- I mean, the site obviously, I mean if it were just a plain old business, I mean, this would be curb cuts and the whole nine yards. If -- this an electric yard where they're pulling 40-foot PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 poles out of this thing, you know, to replace -- and it's all dirt and I'm assuming that just for cost-wise they're going to not want to have to blacktop it and do the whole nine yards to -- so if the Planning Board, and I'm quite surprised that they wouldn't ask you for something, you know, if we're going to require it, we're going to need to see it before we make our decision or the Planning Board is going to need to handle, you know, that part of it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, one way or the other. MEMBER DINIZIO: And so I would approach the Planning Board and they usually handle landscaping and they can probably make a little bit better flow on that piece of property. Having viewed it myself, I can tell you there ain't no way you're going to hide that thing. I don't care how big the tree is, they have to get in and out of that piece of property and where you're looking right now, you're looking right down their driveway at that white dot. MR. WARN: And the site is a very PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 difficult site. There's an easement with an offset that goes back years and years that really constrained us where we could put the generator and I don't -- as far as Mr. Wahl being able to reroute his access to the back part of the lot, I -- he'll have to speak to that, but I -- it doesn't sound easy to me. We'll certainly cooperate and do whatever is in the best that we can do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is that the doctor's house just to the right there? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's it right there. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: He has all his trees cleared out, but he's still up on that bluff and -- MR. WARN: There is some arborvitae in there right kind of looking at the generator. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, he doesn't see the site. He can't see the building from -- cause I went on that property and you can't see the building, but I think you probably can hear this generator running. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a matter of noise and air pollution rather than -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- just visual. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah and there's -- I don't know that -- he won't be able to see that generator, I don't think. Maybe just barely, barely the top of it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: And it's because of what he did, not necessarily the property. So he planted, right, he didn't want to look at the transformer and all those things you saw. He doesn't see any of that just standing up top. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. WARN: You said you had acoustic recording? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I do. I don't know if it'll work, but if you want to hear it. MR. WARN: I'd be delighted. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's try it. He gets to do his show and tell now. MEMBER DINIZIO: Do you want to see my Ipod? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: His homework assignment, you know. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you a question regarding that, Jimmy, before you play it? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, sure. I have to turn on the sound anyway. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Like any generator when it's running at peak capacity, it makes the greatest amount of noise. When you try to soften this peak by using this generator, will the generator be dealing with different levels of electricity flow or will it be running straight in order to take care of that peak? MR. WARN: In the peak shaving mode it will run flat out at 2-1/2 megawatts. To the extent if the Fishers Island load is not 2-1/2 megawatts, which it typically is not, then we will be sending power back through those cables to Groton. We don't anticipate operating the unit at variable power levels. Unless we're in what's called the island mode, island in an electrical distribution sense, not necessarily Fishers Island, but if it were carrying the entire local grid running in this Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 mode without being connected to the New England grid or Groton Utility, then it would be producing whatever power is being -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is needed at that time. MR. WARN: The engine mechanically can operate at various power levels, but -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that would only be if you had those cables not functioning? MR. WARN: That's correct. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If they were not functioning. MR. WARN: It could be an issue with the cables. There's a transformer at Groton Long Point, if that blows, breaker problems, or some reason that the cables or their terminations aren't functioning. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER DINIZIO: The crossing, Jerry, is not there. The crossing is on the other side MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I understand that. MEMBER DINIZIO: I think we've seen it before. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: MEMBER DINIZIO: mile away. MR. WARN: Yeah, bend. MEMBER DINIZIO: Of course. It's probably half a I think, yes. Around the Yeah. So anything like someone throws an anchor hits it, fine, but there's also someone could dig and get it, too. I'm sure it goes right underneath Central Ave. MR. WARN: Sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: I can't imagine it going through the right-of-way there that long. MR. WARN: There are other reasons Groton can go dark. That would, you know, the cables could be intact, all the breakers and transformers are fine, but Groton just doesn't have the power in its grid. I think it would be, historically, it would be very unusual to have, you know, no power, but it could happen and this is a really nice back up if it does. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: to go ahead? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, Thank you. Jim, did you want and you must Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 remember that the main reason that this is being installed is not for Fishers Island power. It's for generating electricity at a cheaper rate. Okay and when they mention this peak thing, that's just a calculation based on weather and the whole nine yards that they base their rates on and if they can generate power at less cost than the peak rate, then they save money. MR. WARN: Sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Now, of course that saves energy, it's -- it goes right on down the line. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: But it's not to their advantage to run this thing any more than they have to because it's fuel. Fuel is not cheap. MR. WARN: No, diesel generators aren't very cost effective per kilowatts to generate power. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. MR. WARN: So there's a specific use for it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me see if I can get this thing going now. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 67 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 So that's 1400 gallons MEMBER DINIZI0: Let me see if I can get it to the beginning. That's me talking. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: a day? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, 4200. MR. WARN: No, 170 gallons an hour. The tank is 4200. We won't fill it above about 3700. We don't want to max it out. In fact, we have 90-percent alarms, 95-percent alarms, overflow shutoffs and all kinds of fill protections. So the capacity is 4200. If we were to fill it from the truck, we would take it to about 3700. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So if you ran it for 24 hours at full bore, what would the fuel consumption be? MR. WARN: That's about it, 24 times 170, so 2 times 24 would be 48, so it's just -- from the top of my head it's about 4,000 gallons. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 4,000 gallons a day. At the present rates, about $12,000.00. MR. WARN: So our normal use would be 3 hours, runs around 3 or 4 days out of a month. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you ready? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 (PLAYING AUDIO OF HIS ATTENDi~2~CE AT THE SITE OF A GENERATOR BEING RUN TO HEAR WHAT THE UNIT WOULD BE LIKE WHEN INSTALLED.) You can hear us walking on the gravel. It's running full bore. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's pretty quiet. MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) talking normal voice, it's not -- it's just amazing what these things can do. MR. WARN: Okay, thank you. You're not 15 feet away or even -- MEMBER DINIZIO: We walked right up to the door. I would have gone in if my ears could have stood it, but they're -- it was not and it was overloading (inaudible). Oh, yeah you do and we had, actually, protection on. MR. WARN: I appreciate your questions. This concludes the formal presentation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, one thing that we do have in our application packet is a letter from Scott Reed, one of the residents on Fishers Island essentially supporting this, but having raised a bunch of questions regarding noise pollution and air pollution in PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 particular, and while he made it clear that that was not a legally binding agreement that you had as a result of the meeting that I believe you held with a number of Fishers Island residents, that CMEEC did say that if in fact it turned out that there was more noise or air pollution than the residents were happy with that you would consider installing an additional muffler at your cost. I just want to confirm that information from your point of view that was in this letter that we have in our packets. MR. WARN: I will have to take that back to CMEEC and get their -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, it's actually in the Planning Board records. It was a letter addressed to Heather. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MR. WARN: It's not the cost. I just have to take it back to them. MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure. MR. WARN: It could throw the entire emissions permit back into the start mode because we're now changing the air flow. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I see. Well, it PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 indicated that you didn't want to do it -- MR. WARN: Yeah, we talked -- we talked - 7O CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- because -- the letter stated that you didn't want to do it right away because you were not certain that it would be necessary at all. So I just wanted to clear that up that's all. It's part of our file and there's a letter about it. So I'd like your comments on that. MR. WARN: Yes. Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: That is something we need to have addressed. I mean that was one of my questions. I couldn't get up on top of that thing to listen to -- look down that hole to listen to it while it was running, but I was most impressed by I could not believe it was even started when we first started and I have that I just couldn't put not enough memory on my stick, you guys want to hear it I'll disk of it or something. I how. I have it starting up. remotely. It's all got all stuff in it -- there was but maybe when try to make a just don't know It's all started sorts of safety -- what's the name of the town I went Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to? MR. WARN: Norge. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MR. WARN: Yeah, Jewett City? MEMBER DINIZIO: Norge, Connecticut. Norge. Did you go to I went to Norge, I didn't go to Jewett City. I went to Norge. There they have this big -- I have pictures of it, too -- displays, all these big -- there were these displays and they can see the generator they're starting and then they start it, a bell rings, and it's quite impressive safety wise. I suppose it's state of the art, but as you can hear, I mean, he took me inside with it not running and he -- we went up to the baffles that you see on the side, those big grates, and he yelled from outside. I couldn't hear him. It's amazing what they -- the material that they use. I could see him, I just couldn't hear him. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's the acoustical material in the container. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I do have concern about that house that's up top hearing more than we're hearing down below. I think Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 we're going to need to explore that a little more. MR. WARN: I could say that the unit at Jewett City is in the middle of downtown Jewett City and its lower -- it's next to a Rite-Aid drugstore and the parking lot is raised. So if you get out of your car you're basically at the level of the top of the unit and it's -- that's our first unit. It's been running for several months and we have not had a single citizen concern. Now, that's somebody going shopping at the Rite-Aid, not somebody on their back deck. So -- but we're equally concerned with you and we'll work through whatever the issues turn out to be. MEMBER DINIZIO: This is located not 100 feet, the one that I heard, maybe 150 feet from a condominium complex. I mean there must be 60 units there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh really? MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh yeah and right across for it, not 150 feet away, is a huge -- MR. WARN: LNG, liquefied natural gas. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- LNG tank. I mean it's bigger than this room. So I think safety Pugliese CourtReportin§ and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 wise someone has really looked at that and, I mean, I don't know that I would have -- that would have been my original place to put a generator, but safe. MR. WARN: I guess safety wise it's pretty It worked because it was a utility property, it had a connection point for electricity and the safety studies showed a benign result. MEMBER DINIZIO: I have these pictures, I don't know if you want to see them. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I'd like to see them. MEMBER DINIZIO: But I was going to put them in the original file. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In the original file. MEMBER DINIZIO: This is his presentation. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To the Planning Board. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, that we just saw. Actually, it's just -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's just a printout of the Power Point -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: You gave us a copy. Yeah. I didn't want to hand it in -- MR. WARN: I have hard copies for you. MEMBER DINIZIO: I didn't want to hand it in beforehand cause I didn't want to feel -- I was excited about this, okay, and I didn't want to feel like I was making you guys -- influencing you in any way. So I thought here in public I'll give you what we need to do. If we have to spend an extra meeting, then we have to spend an extra meeting. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: These are the same, these are the printouts of that. MR. WARN: Those are hard copies of what I just gave you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So there's enough for us to each have one and these are the pictures you took which we'll enter into our office file. MEMBER DINIZIO: The file. I mean there's one there where you could see the gentleman, you'll see how big it is. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a house there. MEMBER DINIZIO: The house and if you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 look at the one you have in your hand right now, my car, you can see the house to the left. All the way -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Here. MEMBER DINIZIO: To the right, excuse me. To the right, keep going. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a house here. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it's not that. This is the house right here. This is where the generator's going. This is the house. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, right. Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: He screened it himself. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: I could draw it in for yOU. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That might be better. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just need to mention one thing to this gentleman, in my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: fence that's there now. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, Jim, that's the that's the houses Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 close to the generator we just heard. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, but that fence is on the -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's there. I don't know whose that is. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I've been on this board for quite a number of years and the only option that this Board has, and I'm not speaking for the Board this is my opinion, if this generator exceeded some outrageous noise levels or created some environmental problem, assuming we had the votes, we would establish a motion to pull the Special Exception in this and we wouldn't do it in this particular situation as we're hearing it right now, but if something outrageous happened and this generator became again environmentally insensitive to the environmental or the noise levels were so extensive that the neighbors were significantly complaining and we've only done that in one instance throughout the years. That was probably done 12-15 years ago on a nightclub that existed in town that we granted a Special Permit on. So the issue of both environmental pollution and noise PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 pollution are of great concern to me regarding this. So when the Chairperson asked you regarding additional mufflers on this unit it's not that I would suggest at this time that we would be granting it, but it is an option that we have if something occurred in the near future or even the far future and even if we weren't, many of us weren't even on the Board, okay, the decision stands -- MR. WARN: Right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The Special Permit stands for itself and that's the reason why I'm concerned about that and it does give us an option. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: Yes. MR. WARN: I'd like to say also in my response, a personal response as the project manager/engineer, the complications starting to go through my head. That has nothing to do with the CMEEC board decision on whether, you know, if they made that statement and I suspect they're going to be willing to honor it. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. WARN: That's -- it's not my call and it's out of my pay grade. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is there any lighting proposed to light up the generator at night, but like a street light type of situation -- MR. WARN: Yes. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- that might affect the doctor's -- MR. WARN: We've done everything we can - that's a good question -- to suppress the lighting, but we do have a low-light TV security camera that, as you mentioned, monitors the site at all times and then at each of the entrance doors there's required to be a light that lights the stairway. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MR. WARN: So it's a safety issue and those are specially hooded and it's a soft light that's directed downward. So all it really does is provide someone approaching the stairs at night is not going to trip and fall. We don't hay any other high lights, flood lights or anything, and it turns out these lights are enough for the low-light TV camera to pick up at night. We can get, you know, we Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 can still see around the site. There's enough soft lighting there that it should not be an irritant in terms of bright lights. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you don't expect any spill onto any adjacent property? MR. WARN: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: If you look at the one with the gentleman standing in the door, the black thing above him is the light and all this is directed to -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Down. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, so there's no like floodlights showing on this thing and none of that. MR. WARN: You can see those lights in the pictures. I could go back to one. In the interest of time, you may - MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, there's one in the picture that I showed them. MR. WARN: Yeah, there's a hood. You see the hood at each doorway. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yup. MR. WARN: That's all Yup. the lighting. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last question I have you may not be able to answer and that is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 who owns the doctor's house? Is it owned by the doctor as a private residence or is it owned by some group within the confines of FITCO or some other organization? MR. WARN: I don't know. I'm told that the person there now is a tenant and is the island doctor. So it may have been -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Good. Okay. MR. WAR_N: -- set up to provide a home for someone that would go out and practice medicine. I don't know. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's less likely they'd be complaining in a normal situation if he actually had free title to the house. MEMBER DINIZIO: George, do you have any idea who owns that house? MR. HORNING: I certainly do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If you're going to answer that, George, you need to use the microphone. MEMBER DINIZIO: You can. Come on up and CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you have to enter into the record that Citizen Horning -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Was asked a question. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. MORNING: George Morning here, member of the public here. I have knowledge of who owns the house in question, which would be the Island Health Project, Island Medical Committee, and the doctors vary. So the doctor does not own the house. There might be a new doctor every once in a while. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. Now, George, hold on. Do you know if that's a public entity or if it's a private, is it a private? MR. HORNING: That is a private entity. MEMBER DINIZIO: Ail MR. WARN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: right. Thank you. In the interest of moving today along, at some point or another, is there anyone in the audience who wishes to address this application? Are there any other last minute questions or comments from this Board? MEMBER GOEMRINGER: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: Okay. There are a couple of things we're clearly waiting to find out about. Planning Board stuff, landscape possibility, drainage plan and so on, we have a choice of either closing the hearing subject PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to receipt of that information or adjourning to a later date, which would be my preference so that if we have any questions in regard to anything we've received, we have an opportunity to ask them. What is the Board's pleasure in that regard? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, you can do two things. You can close the hearing to the verbatim testimony based upon any correspondence that we may be requesting, okay, and formally close it at the next regularly scheduled meeting to all testimony both written and oral. The question is do we want all conditional -- or additional testimony, oral testimony or do we just want individual information in writing and that's the choice the Board has to make. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the only concern that I have is if we do that, if we just reduce it to written correspondence, we can get information, but we may have questions and, you know, we can't go back and forth and question them about the stuff they've submitted unless we do th.at in the hearing. So since this is a big project and we PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 certainly will try to expedite this, you know, I know that you're eager to get going on this project and we'll do everything we can to put it on for the next possible time -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So you would be requesting -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think I would adjourn to a specific date and time so that we could just conclude it at that point and get the information regarding potential additional muffler, you know, muffler, any particular view shed mitigation whether it's from the Planning Board and their comments or through something you submit to us, we want that drainage plan and we want comments from our Town Engineer. We have an MS-4 mandate from the state to deal with runoff and that's a part of this project and by then you'll probably have or are likely to have your Suffolk County hazardous materials storage facility permit also intact and I think that's kind of it with regard to any additional information that I can think of. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Based upon that, unless you have something else, I didn't mean PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to cut you off, I apologize, I will make a motion to close this hearing at the next regularly scheduled monthly meeting as the last application on for that day. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's (inaudible) the month. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Next month. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is one month going to be sufficient time for you to -- well I want to rehear it. I mean I want to be able to question -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You can, yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: It'll be open. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's open. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're just going to leave it open. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's open. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, leave it open to -- I don't know, can we get it on for next month? We have an unbelievable month. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: June is even worse. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's put it on -- we'll adjourn this to May 20tn at 3:00, 2:30 or 1:307 PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 2:30. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 1:307 Let's put it down for 1:30. Okay, so I'll make a motion to adjourn to May 20th at 1:30 p.m. in this meeting hall. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. MEMBER DINIZIO: Wait a -- so let's just get what Mr. Warn is going to need to give us, which is a landscape plan of some sort and the comment on Mr. Richter's drainage plan? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we want the drainage plan to be submitted to Mr. Richter so that his comments will come to us with the drainage plan. MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, so you're working on the drainage plan. MR. WARN: That's correct, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right so it's got to go to Mr. Richter -- MR. WARN: Our engineer has already been in communication with Mr. Richter. They're working together on that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, he stated they're close on it, but we didn't have it PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yet. MEMBER DINIZIO: We'll just receive that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we'll just get it. Landscape plan and any additional permits that may have been issued by then. So I think, you know, that's about it. Landscape and drainage, unless there's anything else anybody can come up with. MR. WARN: You mentioned the Planning Board. I don't know of any issues like this at the Planning Board. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what we can do is ask -- is write to them and ask them for an update on what they perceive to be the status of your application with the Planning Board and we were going to -- you were going to find out from CMEEC their response to the comments in this letter that I'm sure you have a copy of. If not, we'll -- MR. WARN: No, I don't. I wish -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we will provide that for you. If you would make a copy for Mr. Warn or fax it over of Scott Reed's letter from last year. MEMBER DINIZIO: He can have mine. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 87 want to run it by them just to stand on it and you should get writing from them. see where something in MR. WARN: Ail right, thank you. One quick clarification with respect to the Special Exception, your comment was, if it's granted and say 18 months from now the noise is causing -- stirs uproar on the island, you could -- you would pull it. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, we could. MR. WARN: You could pull it. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 just they MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why don't we ask Kristy to come in the next meeting in case there's any questions? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we could do that, too. We could request the Planning Board be present at the next meeting. Make a note on that. We wanted to get some comments. We'll get you a copy of that letter tomorrow. MEMBER DINIZIO: I can give it to him right now. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Yeah, we can get you another copy, Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's Mr. Reed's. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you might 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We would hold a public hearing before we did that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MEMBER GOEHRINGER: we'd do that. It's very unlikely. It's very unlikely MR. WARN: But that's what you're conveying to me that it's -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I'm conveying that we did it once before. It has never done -- before that situation, to my knowledge since the inception of zoning, I don't know of any Special Permits that were ever pulled prior to that, okay, it was revoked conceivably at a public hearing. MR. WARN: Right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: At the extent -- you know, after a decision after public hearing and so I'm not suggesting that would be the case. I'm just saying that this additional muffler system is a great conditional situation for us to deal with if there was concern. That is the reason why I asked who owned the doctor's house and any other houses I suspect are private homes, okay, this has nothing to do with zoning. Okay, they are Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 private homes and those would be the people that would be of great concern as in the person that wrote the letter of concern and those are the people that we have are protecting through our positions on this Board and those are the ones that we have concerns with. I have concern with, I'm not speaking for the Board, and we do appreciate Jimmy going over there and we do appreciate all the noise situation, but who knows what's going to happen in the future. MR. WARN: Right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and we just don't know. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right. Okay -- MR. WARN: I'll get a letter from the CMEEC CEO -- CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Just have them respond to that letter. MR. WARN: -- we'll submit it to you and respond to that with CMEEC's position on that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But our particular concern there was, yeah, was the possibility of additional mufflering for noise and air pollution controls, if it should be needed. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 I'm not even sure how we would word that or what, but I think it's worth having the information in our files. Okay, so we have a motion to adjourn to May 20tn at 1:30 p.m. whereupon we're going to be receiving additional information as just described and I think it was Jerry -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I seconded it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- seconded it. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING #6371 - Southold Holding, LLC MEMBER HORNING: ~This is a request for a Waiver under Code Article II, Sections 280-10A, to unmerge land identified as SCTM #1000-50-4-5, based on the Building Inspector's January 26, 2010 Notice of Disapproval citing Zoning Code Section 280-10A, which states that the nonconforming lots merged until a total lot size conforms to the current bulk schedule (minimum 40,000 square feet in this R-40 Residential Zone District). This land merged with the adjacent property to the west identified as SCTM #1000-50-4-4&3, at: 1120 Soundview Ext., 5,4,3." MRS. MOORE: Southold, NY. CTM #50-4- May I start? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please do, Pat. MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. Patricia Moore on behalf of the applicants. I had provided on the form the history, but I'll go over it briefly. My client is the Gianopoulos family, it's now held in LLC, but it remains as the Gianopoulos family. Nicholas Gianopoulos purchased what's known as Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 tax lot #3. It's a lot created by deed in 1967 and he continued to hold that, the family, he and his wife, and then his family continued to hold that property to today where it is now owned by Southold Lot Holding, LLC. Tax lot #4 also was created by deed in 1959 and this parcel was purchased by Nicholas Gianopoulos in '73 as a separate parcel from tax lot #3 and now that lot is presently owned by Southold Lot Holding, LLC. Finally, we have tax lot #5, which was created by deed in 1949 and this parcel was purchased by Nicholas Gianopoulos again as a separate lot in November of 1973. Mr. and Mrs. Gianopoulos, I believe, had three children and when his young family was growing he would buy these lots hoping that his children would have an asset and to continue with throughout the years. What happened, what triggered recognition that there was a lot merger was that one of the lots was put on the market and at that point in time it was discovered that the lots had merged. So they contacted me. I did a single and separate search of all PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the three parcels, which are all three vacant parcels and we discovered the merger. So the family really was kind of the classic example when we were dealing with the merger law and the revisions to the merger law. Families that bought lots many years ago continued to own the parcels and through really no fault of their own having the lots merge through zoning changes. When I discussed the unmerger at one point in time what we thought was -- or at least my advice was we do have the three parcels. We had the corner lot, lot #3, which if we were to try a request to -- they had actually wanted, would have liked to have three lots, but when I looked at it, it would have required probably variances to build on lot 3 because of the dimensions of the property and the front and rear yard setbacks that would have been applicable to that lot independently. So it was my advice to combine lot 3 and 4 and then have a waiver of merger for 3 and 4 as a combined parcel from lot 5 and that's the application that you have before you at this time. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 We also -- the Code has certain provisions. One being that it be retained in the family and it has been as I stated. I also provided a letter from the accountant as to the family that it is held by the family and the membership of the LLCs, which are family membership LLCs. It would recognize lots that are comparable in size to the majority of the improved lots in the neighborhood. What I did is I actually originally hoping that there was some exception to the merger law with these lots I had done research with respect to the properties and it turned out that the lots to the south on Soundview Avenue Extension were part of a (Inaudible) Dowd subdivision that was approved in the 70s and I provided that data for you and at that time in 1972 the Zoning Board in decision #1700 authorized the subdivision with nonconforming at the time in the 70s. I guess at the time in the 70s I guess the zoning had changed by then allowing for nonconformity with respect to the lot dimensions I think it was more than the sizes and the Board at the time considered the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 character of the neighborhood and granted that variance. So I provided to you -- that subdivision created about, let's see, several lots, I'd have to turn to it, but I believe it was a, I believe, a 6-lot or 5-lot subdivision and took care of most of the land south of -- between Soundview Avenue and Lighthouse Road. There are also similar lots along Soundview Avenue with some conformity of some lots. The corner lot, near Soundview Avenue Extension and Soundview Avenue there is a corner lot that is an acre and it's interesting they've developed a house with a garage next door. So -- or in it's side so it's kind of taken up the entire yard. So the area does -- the size of the parcels particularly the combining of lot 3 and 4 from lot 5 does create a comparable size lot to the neighborhood. The waiver would recognize lot that is vacant and historically been treated and maintained as separate intended residential lots. Again, they have received separate tax bills that's why the Gianopoulos family believed that they had separate lots. The PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 lots are wooded and vacant. So as far as -- they just look like you wouldn't know where the property lines fall, so there really is no development of any of these lots at this time, which is good because it does allow us to combine lot 3 and 4 and not impact the development of that combined parcel from lot 5. Third standard, the proposed waiver recognition of the lot would not crate adverse impact on the physical environmental conditions of the neighborhood or district. This property is dry wooded, very in character with Soundview Avenue development and as far as the Health Department is concerned these lots appear on the 1981 tax map, so they would all be independently entitled to sanitary approval. There is also public water on the street. So there are no environmental constraints on the development of these parcels and, again, it's a voluntary combining of lot 3 and 4 so the Health Department will have no issue with that. Finally, I've given you the prior deeds with respect to how these lots were created Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 and the single and separate. So if you have any questions, it's pretty much a classic example of the relief that the Board legislated in for families that had invested in the Town of Southold and been surprised by merging of their properties. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, I have a question. The survey for lot 5 shows an area of 6,697 square feet. MRS. MOORE: Let me pull it out. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But if you multiply 80 by 213 you get a lot more than that. MRS. MOORE: Let me look. It's a very -- it's possible that we have an error by the surveyor, but I'll double check. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I wonder if there was an error maybe it's 16,697. I don't know, but -- MRS. MOORE: I think my paperwork says 16, yeah. MEMBER HORNING: 19,000 some of it says. MRS. MOORE: I have multiple surveys. Let me look for one that has -- you know what, I actually have a survey here that shows the different tax lot numbers and the different Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 sizes and it should be 16,697. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So they made a mistake on here. MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'll have it corrected. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I looked at that and I said wait a minute, that's wrong. MRS. MOORE: You caught it because when I was working, I was working off of a survey that was correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MRS. MOORE: So what I can do is provide for you a corrected survey from the surveyor. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just so we know, I have the right square footage. Okay. Looking at the tax maps -- MRS. MOORE: Yes? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: clear that the lot sizes irregular all throughout -- it's pretty are extremely the whole area. They 98 all vary in -- pretty much with a minor exception along Soundview where there's several lots that are over 100 feet wide street frontage. This one, lot 5 has an 80- foot width, which does appear to be pretty PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 much the smallest width though it may not be the smallest square footage cause it may be deeper than occasionally something else, but it does appear to be a little bit smaller than pretty much everything else in that area. MRS. MOORE: Well, that was -- I do appreciate that, the Code requires me to go back to the original lot lines, which ideally we would have had a different lot configuration, but you know that's -- I didn't have the law that provided for that without a lot line change. I mean a lot line change just adds an extra cost and burden on the applicant because it's not so much the Planning Board although the Planning Board on lot line changes are now, because of the volume of work that they have, are taking inordinate amount of time. The Health Department, you end up having to go to the Health Department for a lot line change as a subdivision. So that process really adds a real burden and expense to the client that, if we at all possible can avoid given the fact that we are making such -- the family has made such a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 significant, I want to say concession in that they're abandoning what would have been a third lot, tax lot #3. So I thought the Board, given that circumstance and going back to the original lot lines, would certainly recognize that we are making an oversized lot with a corner with a triangle added on to what would be our largest lot, the middle lot. So it is what it is. I can't change what was originally created in that circumstance. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What -- MEMBER HORNING: Pat, would you tell us briefly how your client became aware that the lots were merged? MRS. MOORE: I can tell you very, you know, really very specifically. They -- I don't recall, I think it may have been lot 5 that the family, the mother was in need of some income and so they put lot 5 on the market believing that that lot was a single and separate lot. The broker, I'm not sure if the broker alerted them to a possibility of merger, but I know that I did a single and -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 they called me right away when this became apparent. I think the broker may have suggested they talk to me. It was just a conversation on the phone initially. MEMBER HORNING: An approximate date? MRS. MOORE: Oh, it was before the Code had changed, so it would have been maybe two years ago or so. MEMBER HORNING: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Approximately that period of time. I know that we waited a long time, maybe a year waiting for the Code to change because my advice to them was really the Code as it was before my concern was that we weren't going to be able to get through the standards that had been established through the Courts. So I said hold off, let's see -- at that time, the Town Board was discussing trying to provide some relief to families and I said it's in the works, but I have to wait until the law comes out so I knew how we could approach it. So I know we waited for a good year and then once the law changed at that point the Board wanted to see separate surveys. So I ended up having to hire the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 surveyor to have the surveys created. So the surveys are very -- well, January of 2010, as you can see. So from the time the law was adopted to January of 2010 I was waiting for a survey to make this application. So that's why I say about two years ago and I know specifically because when I did the single and separate that's when I spoke to the family. I said well not only do you have a merger of lot 5, but you have a merger of 3 and 4. So it was really very upsetting to the family and, you know, I was the messenger. MEMBER HORNING: What would be the intent then, the family would try and sell lot 5 and then -- MRS. MOORE: I think -- MEMBER HORNING: -- keep the other lot? MRS. MOORE: Well, now because of timing I don't know if they need to sell or not. I really don't have an answer for you on that. They waited two years, so maybe the family has figured out a way to help mom without having to sell, but that may be an option. Yeah. MEMBER MORNING: And again just to reiterate what we said and what's in the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 record here. These parcels were purchased at distinctly separate times -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER HORNING: separate deeds -- MRS. MOORE: -- with distinctly Absolutely. MEMBER HORNING: bills separately, MRS. MOORE: MEMBER SCHNEIDER: MEMBER GOEHRINGER: time. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and have gotten tax correct? Yes. That's correct. No questions. No questions at this No questions. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want the record to reflect that while 80-foot width is uncommon in that area and it's a clearly substandard size the surveyor did calculate the building envelopes based upon the R-40 setback requirements, which are certainly larger than what these lots actually are. Even lots 3 and 4 are nonconforming at 34,671 square feet in the R-40 zone. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, so we actually may be entitled to greater relief as nonconforming lots. I think front yard may be 40 rather PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 than the 50. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Probably. On lots, proposed lot 5 you've left a 45-width for building envelope, which is not unreasonable. MRS. MOORE: No, that was a nice normal size building envelope. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, please get us a corrected survey. MRS. MOORE: Yes, I will get that for you. Thank you. I apologize. I should have caught that, but I didn't -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are there any other questions? Is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak to this application? Hearing none, I make a motion to close this hearing, reserve decision. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING #6367 - Kevin & Jeanine Faga CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have a written request to adjourn to another date; however I'm going to open this hearing and see if anyone is in the audience wishing to testify cause this was legally noticed and then we will see how to carry on. MEMBER HORNING: ~Requests for Variances under Sections 280-124 and 280-116B, based on the Building Inspector's February 3, 2010 amended Notice of Disapproval concerning demolition and reconstruction of a single-family dwelling at less than the code-required minimum of 10 feet on a single side yard and less than 75 feet from the existing bulkhead (dwelling and foundation were removed, this is a deviation from original grant No's. 6281 & 6243), adjacent to Orient Harbor, at 12632 Main Road, East Marion; CTM Parcel 1000-31-14-8.2." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, would you like to, as the applicant's agent, address the Board. MRS. MOORE: Yes, and I on behalf of my client we apologize for the adjournment. It PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 was really an emergency that happened. The engineer, I just had a blank on the engineer's name, anyway he called or I was speaking with him yesterday and he was telling me that he had an emergency and we were really -- you know, he was having to decide between family and being here and I spoke to my clients. The reality is that he's not going to get a house this summer anyway. So in -- you know, really I know it was a hardship for my client, but I -- we agreed that we would adjourn, hopefully, the Board would give us a date not too far in the future, but we just felt that somebody shouldn't have to decide between family and here. So we agreed to an adjournment. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So this was as a result of a problem with the engineer for the foundation? MRS. MOORE: Yes. I needed him to discuss the foundation and really it was unfair for him, so we adjourned. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to comment or address this application? Does the Board wish to request anything PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 at this time or should we just -- MEMBER HORNING: No. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. MEMBER HORNING: I have one question of the attorney, from -- MRS. MOORE: thank you. Yeah, are you in receipt of the letter Oh, from the neighbor? Yes, your staff very kindly sent it to us. Thank you. Yeah and I did want to, I mean, we want to respond, but I leave that to my client cause he knows the circumstances better than I do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right, so I make a motion to adjourn this application to July. Yes, it would be July 29tn at what time? 1:307 Yes, what do you think? Okay. July 29tn at 1:30. MRS. MOORE: 1:30, okay. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING ~6361 - Nick Mihalios MEMBER DINIZIO: ~Request for Variances from Code Section 280-105, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's November 30, 2009, updated March 24, 2010 Notice of Disapproval ~as Built" fence, (1) more than the code-required height of 4 feet in a front yard, (2) more than the code-required height of 6-1/2 feet in the side and rear yards, at 1230 The Strand, East Marion, NY. SCTM# 1000- 30-2-73.- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, would you like to address the Board? MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. Patricia Moore on behalf of the applicant, Mr. Mihalios and Mrs. Mihalios are here today, so I would defer to them some of their own personal experiences here. The house, just to get an overall picture that this is in Pebble Beach subdivision. It's a waterfront house. The house is on the lot on the east and we are dealing with a fence that is on the adjacent contiguous parcel that is vacant and the yard is a Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 beautifully landscaped yard that's used in combination with the main house. So it all appears to be one piece of property, but they are two separate lots. The property also has, in addition to the fence, there is 18 arborvitae that surrounds the property and it does screen the fence from the street. You don't see the fence on the street and Mr. Mihalios will go into this more thoroughly, but the fence is really a reaction to what has become a nuisance for he and his family. The adjacent house, I see Mr. Panagopoulos and I apologize if I didn't pronounce it correctly, is here today, so I'm sure he'll have his own comments, but the house right next door has been under construction since 2002 is when a building permit was first issued and Mr. and Mrs. Mihalios have had to live next to a construction site since 2002. It's, you know, not only creates the typical nuisance of a construction site, but it is also a dangerous condition given the fact that they have a pool on their property. What originally occurred and during the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 construction of his neighbor's house, the properties in Pebble Beach and I'm sure if you've driven the neighborhood particularly on the Sound-front properties have different elevations and the neighbor had a house that was high on one side and then you have Mr. Mihalios' property that is to his east. When, during construction, his neighbor brought in soil in order to bring the grade of the property to match his easterly -- westerly side and that resulted in a grade change between Mr. Mihalios' property and the neighbor's property of 3 to 4 feet and this created a serious problem originally with drainage. He asked the Town to look at this. Then his neighbor was required to build a retaining wall and deal with -- he hasn't dealt with the drainage completely because the house is still under construction, there is no - the drywells I don't believe have been installed yet, but certainly as an immediate remediation there's a retaining wall now there. Mr. Mihalios always had a fence on his property as needed for the pool and through Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 111 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this construction process it just became to the point where he needed to do something. So he raised the fence and, in particular, the most crucial part of this fence is towards the Sound. It's in the backyard because that is where the grade differential is most severe. The grade of the neighbor's property runs from the street level and then it goes up. His neighbor has the garage entrance, I believe, is under the house. So that's the entranceway and then the property has been filled on either side and then there's a grade differential. The highest grade differential is in the back. So now the fence that used to -- a standard fence when placed on the Mihalios' property, cause that's where he is permitted to put a fence, essentially creates a -- the fence and then the retaining wall on the property of his neighbor so that there is an inadequate fence from the neighbor to his property and there is no protection for anybody particularly children to be stopped from travelling from a neighbor's property onto the Mihalios' property and entering the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 pool area. So it was a seriously dangerous condition that he had to deal with. So he needs a higher fence than the Code would allow because he -- 4 feet of it is just reaching the neighbor's property in the back and, therefore, anything above that area and it's permissible to have a 6-foot fence, only allows 2 feet above the grade of his neighbor. That's an inadequate fence for a pool area. So what he did is, and it may be somewhat high in the back, but almost -- imagine yourself as a temporary condition during a construction period. Mr. Mihalios is here. he's willing to adjust the He can tell you fence height, but we cannot meet the 6-foot high fence height in the rear yard in particular because that would only leave a 2-foot fence between his property and his neighbor's property and that's a serious condition. So I would -- and I'll entertain any questions you have. I'm sure there'll be comments on both sides. So I want to address your questions rather than -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just need to know Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 where the greatest height of the fence is? I don't understand which is front and which is back on this (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry. The highest point of the fence, we actually have the street side when you're looking at the diagram is the left hand side. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: It's as if you're looking at the fence from the Mihalios' property. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: So it's 7 feet in the front. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: And it tapers off to 7-feet, plus 4 on his land. So you can see -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: -- that MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The greatest -- the -- The greatest raise is by the tie walk; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that would be the highest spot toward the Sound? MRS. MOORE: Correct. Correct and then it tapers down as the grade as the hill -- there's a kind of a hill before the bluff Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 114 reaches -- before you get to the area of the bluff. Now there's always been a fence there, so it predates the Trustees' jurisdiction and so on. This was a temporary modification to the existing fence to deal with the height. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So let's just get into the fact of one issue here and that is the issue of what is he willing to lower? Is it the fence closest to the road? MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so forward of the house? MRS. MOORE: Well, here's the thing. The Building Department had to call the entire fence a front yard. I mean, technically if you have a front yard setback of 40 feet it would be the first 40 feet, I believe, under the Code. There's no house on this lot. So the Building Department just considered the whole area 40 feet. At one point or another, kinda common sense tells me that it becomes a rear yard when you reach the point of a front yard setback, a conforming front yard setback. I would say that the first 40 feet would be technically the front yard and then from PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that point forward you have technically a rear yard. There's really no side yard cause there's no house. So if you want to measure from where our house, my client's house is on the adjacent piece, we could use that as a point of reference or we use a standard zoning front yard versus rear yard setback. You know I want to make sure we're both talking the same language when we're speaking front yard versus rear yard. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The properties are not merged or are they merged? MRS. MOORE: I don't believe they merged. You have an -- Yes. We may have a merger here, but I don't know -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually (inaudible) to find out because it's being treated as a single lot. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The way the grass is mowed and it's -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, treated personally by them. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's treated as their side yard. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But I'd like to know legally if it's merged for a couple of reasons. One is you're describing the fence as related to the swimming pool, but the pool is actually on another lot. MRS. MOORE: It's actually on the -- yes, it's on the improved lot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's on their lot, an accessory structure to residential that house. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: thing I'd like to clear up. MRS. MOORE: I'd have separate and analyze back to you on that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: that's worth pursuing. Right. That's the first it that say, to get a single and so I'll get Okay, well I think MRS. MOORE: That's fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Secondly, the -- did I understand you correctly, the neighbor erected and owns the retaining wall? MRS. MOORE: Yes. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, since part of the fence that -- especially the part that's closest to the Sound has actually been installed against the retaining wall, it is literally -- MRS. MOORE: It's on the property line. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, well then obviously so is the retaining wall, but it is not a freestanding separate structure. It's actually nailed into the retaining wall. MRS. MOORE: The fence? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The poles down that end. MRS. MOORE: Ah. Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then that becomes an interesting situation in terms of ownership. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Leslie, when you say down that end, you're referring to the area where the greatest height of the retaining wall is? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's correct, way toward the Sound. You know, back there. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whoever installed Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 it, it's not installed, you know, one up against the other, but it's literally on the retaining wall in part. So that's another matter that we should address in terms of ownership. Also, you know, the whole property is fenced. I mean that's -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's fenced on the bluff, it's fenced on the other side. There's a conforming fence in the front yard of 4-foot height. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, so what we're really dealing with -- I don't know about those structures on the bluff that were erected, that may be a Trustee matter whether that's permissible or not, but that's not before us. MRS. MOORE: I actually -- yeah. I have a very current survey. The surveyor provided for us the location of the fence, which the poles are on our side and the retaining -- the railroad tie retaining wall is, it looks like it may be sharing the lot line. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sharing is a good way to put it. MRS. MOORE: Yeah and I don't know that any -- neither side, I don't think you -- well, come on up cause you have something to say. I don't know that anybody has had an issue with that. Both, I think, are -- MR. MIHALIOS: The fence was installed -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We need you to state your name for the record. MR. MIHALIOS: My name is Nick Mihalios. I am the owner of both lots. This is my wife. MEMBER HORNING: Can you tell us what lot numbers stand for -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, oh, it's subdivision lot 124 and 123. MR. MIHALIOS: 124 and 123. MRS. MOORE: Do you want the tax map number? MEMBER HORNING: No. MR. MIHALIOS: When I build the house in 1987 I complete it in '89, I put in a pool. The Town requested a fence going around the property, which I did. I believe it was 5- foot fence. I did all the way around and no Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 problem since. Mr. Panagopoulos start building his home right next to me. He changed his grade and in the back he bury my fence with dirt and all the silt, sand came into my property. So I told Mr. Panagopoulos I says, listen you're my neighbor, let's have a good relationship. Promise me you're going to fix up your -- you will finish your construction, put up a wall, do something there this way it prevent the water from coming into my property and also remove all the sand and silt that came and bury my bushes all along the side there. Verbally he agreed, but for me to do it correct I sent him a letter and I stated all the things he has to do just to sign and confirm the agreement that we had. Apparently, Mr. Panagopoulos never signed it. He says -- I told him how come you never sent back the letter. He says, listen if I have money left over by the time I complete it, I'll do what you want me to do. So since then my bushes grown very big so I tried to -- some of the bushes were in his property so I want to trim it. So one time I asked him can Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 my people go in your property to trim the bushes not to stand your property. He says okay. He let me the first time. The second time he refused. So what I did I cut the bushes 2-1/2 went in my property and I feet between the existing fence and my property. That, of course, opened up the route for the deers. They came in, they made such a big thing to my property, they eat everything. So I decided to extend my fence. It was my fence, I paid for, I put it in. It wasn't my property clearing his property -- clearing his property (sic). So I extended to whatever it is right now and I know some places we over did it. I admit it and I'm willing to correct it to according what the law requires and this is the whole story how this thing started and I told Mr. Panagopoulos if he would ask me once he see that he disagreed with that he could have talked to me. I was ready to (inaudible) time if he were here and deciding which is the right way or not, but apparently he decided to come in and call the Inspector for a violation. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 So this is the whole truth there and I'm asking the Board to decide what is the best thing to do there. I'm willing to correct it. Some places, I agree, it's not the right way done, but I'm willing to correct it. MRS. MOORE: I think you mean in the back where the retaining wall is. I think that's - MR. MIHALIOS: Yes, of course. Because the retaining wall buried the fence. It's even. My existing fence, the existing fence and somebody made a statement before that it's tilted. It's not the fence goes all the way down and it's facing the retaining wall, which the fence is clearing -- I believe it's clearing about an inch or 2 inch from the property line. So even his retaining wall is facing my property, which is I think on his property line. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want you to be aware that I don't really go on other people's property, even applicant's property, if the property is fenced. I really need to come over and look at the whole project as one particular composite. Okay? So it would also PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 make sense to me and I'm only speaking for myself not of course the other board members, if you tell us what particular area you are willing to compromise other than the area that we just discussed with counsel and that can be done very easily by handing ribbons on the portion of the fence where you're willing to reduce the height of the fence to a certain degree. I use this tape, the same tape that the surveyors use. MR. MIHALIOS: with red tape mark the fence. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: yeah or hang it in certain locations. Tie it to the fence so that we can understand exactly where you're willing to compromise and we can go back and look at it. Again, I'm not necessarily speaking for the Board, I'm speaking for myself. Visually, in life I represent a specific governmental entity and when we take down a tree, we spray paint the tree. I'm not asking you to spray paint the fence I'm asking you to hang these little tags around so that we can understand what you're looking to reduce to and we'll bring a tape with us, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 we'll measure and -- I'll understand the situation much better than I understand it now. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: one brief moment and then Let me just go back I want to see if there are other Board members that have questions. I'm sure there are. The reason that I wanted to understand about these two parcels is because if, in fact, this is a separate lot and it's not merged with where your house is, then you have to have a fence around your pool on your lot, on that lot, not on the unimproved lot. Okay, do you see what I'm saying? MRS. MOORE: I'm not MEMBER DINIZIO: No, MRS. MOORE: Because sure that's true. that's not true. actually the Building Department approved this fence when he constructed the fence. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't have to have another -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No. MRS. MOORE: No. It has property that you're in control enclosed. to be around the of has to be Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So even if it's -- so it's an unimproved lot and it has an accessory fence on it. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: If they sold that lot, then they'd have to move the fence. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They'd have to take it down. MRS. MOORE: Yes, if they sold the lot (inaudible). MR. MIHALIOS: I don't remember at the time -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to get that cleared up. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but there's still the single and separate issue. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, that's important. MEMBER DINIZIO: had concern about the Yeah, very important. I single and separate. I'd just like to see if that is exactly what it appears to be and, you know, I'm quite familiar with the property and I know this gentleman. I've met him a few times, looked Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 at his house and I just want to -- I mean it is on the sloping, you know, he's on top of the hill and you're not, and you know that is a problem and the retaining wall I thought was a fairly good idea. I understand deer, certainly we get a lot of complaints about that. I mean it's just taking that fence and I understand even the part about protecting that pool, that a kid could get -- jump on that, you know, come down from his property, get on that and then over the fence that's 6 feet -- MRS. MOORE: Particularly while the house is under construction, there's really no supervision, there's no nothing. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, no but that I understand even if not, but I mean I'm just wondering why didn't you just move your fence back 6 feet from the property line and just be done with it? You know, have a regular sized fence instead of, you know, going through -- MRS. MOORE: That actually creates a legal problem down the line because you start taking your fence and taking it off the property line and particularly when you fence Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 in a property the title company will actually call it out as a possible added possession. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I mean there's plenty of ways of claiming possession. I mean he could put a -- MRS. MOORE: Well, you know -- MEMBER DINIZIO: He could put a gate on that. He could put a gate on there and he could take all of his yard clippings and dump them in that area. Okay? MRS. MOORE: That's not very neighborly. MEMBER DINIZIO: Listen just a proposal, okay, if you want I mean we're talking some abstract about adverse possession. Let's talk about what could happen there. Okay, I'm just wondering why -- MRS. MOORE: Okay, not advocating. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm asking the question, is there any reason why you couldn't just move that fence, make it a 6-foot fence, get it whatever the safe distance is away from so that you're not having that retaining wall to go through this? MR. MIHALIOS: I don't think it's going to accomplish the purpose even if I move it 6 PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 foot here. Still somebody can fall down from that retaining wall into my property and I'm going to have a lawsuit. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I mean it doesn't necessarily even have to be a retaining wall. It could be what was there before -- MR. MIFIALIOS: Yeah, but it was there before and then the property is sloping down to maybe 30 degrees into my property and then I'm having all the silt and the water -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MR. MIFIALIOS: -- coming in, which I'm not too happy about that. This is the problem. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but I think we're just addressing the fence. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, so I'm just wondering why that little step hasn't been considered or if it has. MRS. MOORE: Well, the fence was always there. It was always prior to the neighbor building, but it was a 5-foot fence or -- was it 4-feet or 5-feet? MR. MIHALIOS: I think it was 5 feet. I Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 don't swear to it, I fence. MEMBER DINIZIO: fence that was legal think it was 5 feet But in any case it was in the backyard. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it was no problem. MEMBER DINIZIO: You know and I understand that this condition changed, it certainly was not your fault. Certainly, you know, the conditions changed and without us, cause we can't control what goes on in the lot next door, I'm asking that question. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Why go through all the trouble when you could just move it back? MRS. MOORE: We talked about it cause I cost money for him to pay me -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: -- to be here. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, MRS. MOORE: You know, talk about the possibility, well certainly. so yeah we did but it really -- it just wasn't -- no matter what, there was a situation particularly where the retaining wall is that really there was no simple solution, safe solution. The safe solution PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 would be if the neighbor put up a fence at his grade, but we can't control what goes on there. Maybe someday there'll be a fence, but it doesn't stop us from needing to have a fence legally because of the pool, but we can't control what the neighbor does and you know -- MEMBER DINIZIO: MEMBER HORNING: Okay. I remain a little bit confused by the layout. I mean we're looking at I think the same survey that you referred to with the subdivision parcels 122, 123, 124 is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's -- MEMBER HORNING: And I'm curious where the pool is located on lot 124 and the house MRS. MOORE: Lot 124 is -- MEMBER HORNING: It's not marked on here so it's confusing. MRS. MOORE: Yes. It's not showing here. Right. MEMBER HORNING: Which leads to the question how is the pool fenced on the other three sides? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Oh, on his property, on the other adjacent property? MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, right. MRS. MOORE: It's got a -- MR. MIHALIOS: It's all over. I mean the Building Department request that at the time (inaudible) -- MEMBER HORNING: And ll-foot fence? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the height of the fence you're asking? It was -- I think it's 6 feet along the side and -- MR. MIHALIOS: 6 feet. MRS. MOORE: -- 4 feet conforming on the front. Well, it goes to the rear entrance of the house with a gate. MEMBER HORNING: whole property -- MEMBER DINIZIO: So it goes -- So it doesn't go the No, George, the ll-foot fence only goes down that retaining wall. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The one side. MEMBER HORNING: MEMBER DINIZIO: property whatever. MEMBER HORNING: MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. It doesn't turn on his At all? I, you know, I didn't Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 really take a look at that, but -- MEMBER HORNING: Right, how about on the Sound side, what kind of fencing goes down the Sound side? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Cyclone fence. MRS. MOORE: Here you see this is the adjacent piece with the house and the pool. MEMBER HORNING: Right and the pool is approximately where? MRS. MOORE: About here, the house is here and the pool is behind in the rear yard. MEMBER HORNING: I see, towards the Sound? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, this and is it sloping is the slope of the bank. along here. MEMBER HORNING: property there. So the fence continues here and It cuts through the MRS. MOORE: It cuts through the property and continues on to the other side to the side lot of the adjacent piece. MEMBER HORNING: It goes down the property line there. MRS. MOORE: And then connects to the back door -- the back of the house mid-way PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 with a gate. MR. MIHALIOS: MRS. MOORE: Yes, the end of the house. The end of the house. There's a house here and the standard connection -- MEMBER HORNING: The rear yard of the house. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you're going inside, you open the gate and you're now in their back yard. MEMBER HORNING: And what other -- again, the height of those portions of fences? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's conforming. I believe, my memory is that it's a 6-foot chainlink same material, chainlink fence in the rear on his opposite on his improved parcel and then it's a 4-foot front at the entrance with the gate. MEMBER HORNING: On the roadside, okay. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The 6-foot along the other side yard, the difference being that in some places the property is bermed up a little bit so that that fence -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it kind of looks more Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 like -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- from grade is still 6 feet, but if you were to stand on a level grade it would be higher, but it's -- the chainlink part is actually 6 feet. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's my memory. MR. MIHALIOS: Yeah, 6 feet. MRS. MOORE: Not 5, 6 feet. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody else, any questions? Is there anyone else in the audience who would like to address this application? Please come forward. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You can use that mike right there. apologize. MRS. MOORE: Okay? MR. name is Oh, that one is not working. I Can I leave the stuff there? PANAGOPOULOS: Good afternoon, my Peter Panagopoulos, lot 122, which is west of Mr. Mihalios back end lot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, would you, please, for the record, spell your name? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: P-A-N-A, G as George, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 O-P-O-U-L-O-S. First name is Peter. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, sir. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Mr. Mihalios build his home around 1980, give or take, and he had the swimming pool right after whatever time (Inaudible). Later on time he purchased the extra lot so no one else could build right next to him. Correction, I did not start as the counselor said, in 2002 construction. It started late 2003. Then I had mishaps. I had Mr. Mihalios -- I had a container in the property, which had ceramic roof tiles, and Mr. Mihalios at the time sent me a letter. He went around at the time collecting signatures did not want that container even though it was on my property and part on the swale, but not on the road, and it was a clear kind of thing. His brother-in-law approached me at the time of excavation wanted to buy me out and it was clear to me at the time, Pebble Beach Association also got together with him, sent me a letter, which I have here, and there were a lot of mishaps. For some reason they did not want me there to build and I had deaths in Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the family, whatever, so that's why the property was delayed and eventually because of all these problems I end up divorcing and having three young children. They live in Orient, but you know with all my mishaps I have to finish that house, I cannot just abandon it. Now, the counselor I believe either is mistaken or is misleading you because I never changed the elevations and I don't know if anyone of you on the Board remember I asked for variance because the Department of Buildings, after many times Mr. Mihalios complained, gave me violations. They said look we had enough you guys. Even though in the beginning they were saying there was no problem, you know, it was construction there was not much there to (inaudible) Mr. Mihalios represents it, but in any case I asked for variance and I built a retaining wall and the question was only along the residence at the time, but then later on somehow Mr. Mihalios convinced the Inspector to go all the way to the bluff 25 feet away from the bluff. I asked for variance and I did. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Now, I never changed the elevations. Mr. Mihalios wanted me and he approached me by the fence, he said, why didn't you put more railroad ties and bring it level? I said, no, look at all the properties from west to east, they all sloping down this way. So why should we change elevation, I like nature, there's no need for it. It was drainage before, why there's no drainage now once the grass grows, the house finished it'll be just fine. I could have put something temporarily, but no I had to put the walls, so I did. Now, as for he has no excuse for him to dig it in the bluff and all around the properties, the two properties that he owns putting a 9 feet fence because if you measure it in the front west as you're looking at his vacant lot west, the west corner if you look along the side and I believe side view is from one end from the front to the back. The rear side would be what is on the bluff, but in any regards, it's 9 feet at the front. It's so ugly, which it was before 4 feet and I have pictures of it here. For all these years Mr. Mihalios was PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 claiming the deer was doing damage to him for 25 or more years that his house was there never had any problem with the deer, but as soon as I started building the house, then is when he changed his attitude. He went all to renovate his own house in and out completely for three years he was working on it. He just --you know, he's right, if he wants to look and be feel that he's the best is fine, but don't take it up on me. hardships. I have enough Now, as to the rear side, let's put it this way, where the railroad ties are and I know it's my obligation, I believe (inaudible) that I should have had the right to put a fence on top of those railroad ties so this way no children would ever cross into his property. So that it's a poor excuse that he had to use that. Now also he mentioned that I should have gone to him after he placed the fence, 9 feet fence, rather than going and complaining to the Department of Buildings. Why should I have done that? he, before he put the fence on, say, look neighbor let's find a Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 Why didn't come to me and solution to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 it. We'd have found a solution, I have no objection, I understand, but all these years, 25 years, the deer did not make a mess in his property or if they did -- but again if we start restricting the deer now the deer makes a big mess on my property. There's doody all over, you know why? Because they stop right there by that fence and every night you see 10-15 deer right there. Now, if -- for years, I live in Orient for 25 years. Latham used to plant tomatoes across the street from my house (inaudible) small road, private road, deer never did any damage to us. We had too many half-acres. He had this (inaudible). Now, the deer takes a little bit from here, a little bit from there, which you don't notice it and a little dirt here and a little dirt there where you can live and cope with it, but if we start restricting the deer, we start putting fences like that naturally one is going to be safe from this kind of nuisance, let's put it this way, another one is going to suffer double. Let's not forget that the north fork depends and all the businesses on tourism. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 140 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Now, if we start putting up 9-feet fences that will be a pilot and then we're going to have another Corona, New York or Bronx. I just don't want to say names, but that's what it comes to. So it was a poor excuse for him to put the fence. He should have come to me first, would have found a solution. I would have put a fence, a nice (inaudible) fence and I have no objection of his fence, but 9 feet and that kind of link fence, if you look at these pictures and, please, maybe you saw, you should see what (inaudible) especially with my condition I had to paint twice or three times a year to remove all this wild stuff that grows, which Mr. Mihalios don't have any problem because the sun turns this way around 10:00 and all the stuff goes through, weaves through the link fence and leans towards my property and it's a real pain for me to paint and keep on cutting it and maintaining that. It is an ugly situation and hard work and Pebble Beach Farms to make it even worse in a way. Pebble Beach Farms Association had a by- laws, which no fence were allowed whatsoever, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 but Mr. Bivona the president, he changed the by-laws to accommodate a few people, a handful of people that put up the fence illegally (inaudible) feet fences and they changed the by-laws which is illegal and I believe any law is based on good common sense. A good common sense says that any law that we pass it should be equal, fair to one and to the other, not fair to one and unfair to another, which this is exactly what's happening with this fence right now with me and I tend to have an argument with Pebble Beach Farms, which of course has nothing to do with this Board, but Mr. Mihalios should have come before and talked to me. We would have found a solution rather than taking up on his own and that was one day we weren't working at the house and I was in Queens and I came back two days later I see the fence up. That was a real kind I say the word sneaky way of doing it so -- and I believe I don't know if any of this Board remembers his own brother in Mattituck had dug a 400-feet of bluff at the time on a new house that he had built there. So is a tradition or Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 142 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 family kind of thing, but this is how it stands and I upset with. You should confirm what the law states and if there's any way I can help with that and make it more aesthetic so I don't have to look that ugly fence like I'm Fort Apache in the Bronx if that was the case I stay in Queens or Mr. Mihalios too if he love fences like that he wouldn't have to move out here. There are plenty of fences down in Queens and other areas. Well, I'm sorry I (inaudible) you. I thank you so much and I hope you consider what I said. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do any board members have any questions? MEMBER HORNING: Is he submitting the photos for us or -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you going to give us these photos? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: (NOT AT MIKE.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Huh? Yeah, we can make some copies of them, if that's all right. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Of the retaining wall and (inaudible) at the time (inaudible) container which it was in 2003 -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- and it was just a container with tiles. Also I have the letter from Mr. Mihalios (inaudible) he upset with me (inaudible). Oh, the counselor said that I'm -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you have to talk at the microphone. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think you need to go back to the microphone. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Mr. Mihalios' counselor said that the retaining wall that I built, you know, I'm sorry, sometimes I forget really what I want to say and it just will come to me I don't know when, but it had something to do with the retaining wall and -- oh, now I remember. About drywells. I have two drywells all my gutters. His is not and no one in Pebble Beach but mine, all the gutters. If you go and really look the pipes into the ground and lead into the front on the right side and who put was Tommy from his father retired and Tommy took over -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Foster. MEMBER DINIZIO: Foster. Tommy Foster. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. PANAGOPOULOS: -- did first time in the back where I have not doors, an opening where the basement leads there's a sliding door it leads outside. Right there is a drain, which it has a drywell to collect water, but the house all around has huge drywell in the front. As you looking at the driveway, you stand in the driveway on the left side after the stone well there's a huge drywell there. So somehow counsel is misleading, I do have and there's no water whatsoever. I contain all the water that comes to my house. My neighbor, yes, has his whole roof complete entire roof in one gutter and the gutter is pointing on me and it keeps on -- that's why the left side, I don't know if you have been there, the left side I cannot finish yet. I put grass on the right side. The left side I cannot because the water comes down runs onto the street and cuts a huge, like a river, it cuts a chunk out of the dirt and I cannot finish it. Many times I complain to them, they say, yeah, we're going to built something else, we're fix it, but they never Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 do that. That's the only water that runs out because of the neighbor on west of me, but as for drywells, yes, I do have two drywells. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, there's a drainage code that everyone who builds now has to adhere to and we're glad that you're doing that, but right now we want, but -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Well, I -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- right now we want to be addressing this fence issue and is there anyone else in the -- are you finished, sir? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Is there anyone else in the audience who would like to address this application? Did you want to say something else, sir? MR. PANAGOPOULOS: Can I (inaudible) if you don't mind? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Come to the microphone, please. MR. MIHALIOS: (Inaudible) Mr. Panagopoulos mishaps, I'm sorry about that PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 (inaudible) in his life, but I'm not the only neighbor complaining there for 8 years. Referring to the container, before he even started excavating, a 60-foot container came and parked in the road in front of his property, part of it was on my property and I asked him, I says, what is this, how long is it going to be here? He says to me, you know, I ordered some tiles from Greece going to go on my roof and this container I gotta use it on my roof so I'm going to keep it until I hit the roof. Now, most of you people know what's going on construction, by the time you excavate, foundation, framing, you gotta be Speedy Gonzalez to finish in two months. It took 7 months to hit the roof and the container was there. That's why I took aside and I ask him why don't you move it in storage place. I figured 10 days, a week, 2 weeks is understandable, but not 7 months seeing that 60-foot container in the road with no blinking lights or nothing. That was the first time on that. The rest, what is he is we say he's a very soft speaker, Mr. Panagopoulos. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 (Inaudible), but let me tell you I (inaudible) nothing. He owes me nothing. He owes nothing to the neighborhood and the neighborhood owes him nothing. You go into a neighborhood you gotta respect your neighbor when you constructing not to do whatever you want and then you say I had a mishap. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. MIHALIOS: Anyway, I'm willing to do the fence whatever the law says, 6 feet, 6- 1/2. I'm willing to reduce it. It was misunderstanding, it's a little bit too high, but I'm willing to do whatever you decide. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very much, sir. Okay. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: I'd like to answer him if I could, please. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Come back to the mike and please try and be as brief as possible because we are really quite far behind and please just address your comments to the fence and not necessarily to the long history of dilemmas between neighbors and construction. What is before us is the fence. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. PAIqAGOPOULOS: Right. Now, on the fence itself I believe if he's going to conform leave his fence at 6 feet, 6-1/2 whatever the law requires, it should be from his property not from my property. If I am higher then I'm required to put a fence there to make up the difference on his fence in case there may be children jump over and go into his pool. Even though this is two separate properties it should be around his pool not really two properties combined together and as for the container it was on my property not his property and in 2003 my father died and that's how I remember. It was a sad thing and he died, by the time we buried we got over it. We started construction later on. So that's the reason why the container -- but it was on my property. It was not on his property and in the pictures you're going to see containers and dumpsters on the road that Mr. Mihalios when he was renovating his house is in there in those pictures. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, I appreciate that and we will -- we're willing to listen, it's a public hearing. The public has a right PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 variance, MRS. record. to be heard; however, we really do need to address just the fence. It's a height that's all. MOORE: I just want to correct the CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We cannot -- we hope that you will build whatever is useful on your property for you. We need to only address, at this point, what is on his property and what the law will allow. MR. PANAGOPOULOS: (Not at mike). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Pat, if you want to just conclude this -- MRS. MOORE: Just corrections of what he said. yes, it's measured from our property, but we can't force him even if he promises the Board that he's going to eventually put up the fence on his property, there is no way to force him. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We know that. We're aware of that. MRS. MOORE: So just for the record that even if he says it, we're trying to protect the property from our side. It is our -- the only reason. Thank you. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just, cause this is my application. MRS. MOORE: Oh lucky you. MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly, I just need to know why it is that you don't feel it's your responsibility to protect, like any other property owner, that pool from somebody going over that fence? MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry? MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, listen -- MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure, I said we do have to. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- if you can't -- if you can't accomplish what the safety requirement for having a pool is because if you build on your property line it doesn't meet the Code. Okay, it doesn't meet the safety Code, i.e. someone scaling the fence from outside your property to inside. Why you don't feel it's your responsibility to move that fence so that a child can't scale that cause that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about somebody scaling the fence and getting in. You're using his -- the slope of that property as an excuse for not building Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 a fence, number one to Code, number two to the safety standards. MRS. MOORE: I appreciate your point, but when he built his house and his and his pool, it was conforming. There were a change to the neighbor's property. There was a grade differential. There was a change to the -- built the retaining wall so he changed the conditions on his property now making our previously conforming functioning and -- MEMBER DINIZIO: fence no longer Do you have any pictures of what it looked like before? Do you have any pictures? MRS. MOORE: Do you have any -- you should ask him if he has a contour survey maybe he has a contour survey from his -- MR. PANAGOPOULOS: (NOT AT MIKE.) It's still there I just stopped because they were complaining about the dirt. So I had no choice (inaudible) -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Look, I'm just doing it so that when I'm writing this and -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, no, -- no -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. MIHALIOS: And before he started construction it was bushes, it was all kinds of trees there and they absorb the water. I didn't have a problem while it was undeveloped lot. MEMBER DINIZIO: We're not concerned about water. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. We do understand there are drainage problems, there are construction -- MR. MIHALIOS: Yeah, but it was 30 degrees wall and all the excav -- all the dirt he took up from his cellar he pile it over there to level it out. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, the way to address that is through Code Enforcement relative to onsite drainage. MRS. MOORE: And (inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and that's what you're doing and that's fine. I must reiterate we have to move on. This is about a height variance for a fence, okay, and I think all of the issues have been addressed. You're doing to do a single and separate search for us in order to determine whether Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 153 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 those lots are separate or merged. MRS. MOORE: I'm going to do that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And I don't believe we need any other information. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We need a site inspection. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that's fine. Site inspector. Leave it open, do you want to adjourn to another date or do you want to just close it? MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, no, no. We need to adjourn it now. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We definitely need to adjourn it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Jerry, is -- wants to see it. He's going to -- who knows what -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah and I haven't seen any of the pictures he submitted. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: Sorry. MEMBER DINIZIO: Sorry. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me -- you know, it's becoming a great habit for us to hear things like sheds and fences more than once. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 154 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That is a real burden on this Board and it's also very expensive for us since you're not paying additional fees for the hearing. We put you on for June 30th at 2:00. I make a motion to adjourn this hearing to June 30th at 2:00 at which time we will receive a single and separate search relative to lot merger. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 155 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING #6366 - S. Sachman & A. Quardrani MEMBER GOEHRINGER: "Request for Variances from ZBA Grant #6040 dated 7/12/07 and ZBA Grant ~6082 dated November 1, 2007, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's December 4, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed cabana and half bath in accessory garage which is a deviation from prior grants, at 4705 Nassau Point Rd., (adj. Little Peconic Bay) Cutchogue, NY. CTM #111- 9-9." MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How are you today? Sir, could you state your name for the reocrd? MR. NEMSCHICK: Ray Nemschick, Nemschick Silverman Architects. I represent the Sachmans. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Now, you -- we had, of course a prior application on this -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Two. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- particular project. Yeah, two. One was for a swimming pool. MR. NEMSCHICK: No. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 156 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we never had a MR. NEMCHICK: It inside setback. There was no reason for a variance. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The last thing that we dealt with on this particular application was some particular questions that are not part of this Notice of Disapproval so I'm not going to bring that issue particularly up. The issue before us today is the use of a portion of the garage for the purposes of some incidental use for the swimming pool. MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, what several of us, all of us have been up there and looked at it and it is strictly that portion of the south corner of the garage which I have sitting in front of me based upon a site plan that you have done, which requires a bathroom and it shows cabana facilities. It shows a counter, a refrigerator and what other particular items? MR. NEMSCHICK: There's a counter, a refrigerator. They're looking for storage for the pool. Essentially they don't want to have Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the kids running back to the house all the way that far to use the bathroom or whatnot. You know, I also recall Notice for that. The Disapproval from the Building Department does recognize that Code would allow this -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just pull that mike up a little. We're having a little trouble hearing you. MR. NEMSCHICK: Yeah. The Disapproval from the Building Department does recognize that Code allows this as an applicable use. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is a permitted use; however, we conditioned the approval of this garage on the basis of not having plumbing or heat. MR. NEMSCHICK: Well, you did that the first time and then you removed it the time after that. The last Notice only says that we were talking about height, it says, ~Grant variance applied for as shown and it says no habitability or sleeping in is authorized under this variance determination." You didn't site interior plumbing. My point was that they're building it right next to the pool. The whole point was that you know, I PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 158 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 mean, this. what I'm not even going to go backwards in They asked me for a half bath so that's I filed for. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I ask you why construction was continued after the stop work order because as soon as that was issued I was out there on that site and it was just framed. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So was I. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There was no sheeting, there was no insulation, there was no -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nothing. MR. NEMSCHICK: Cause the Building Department gave me the approval to continue. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They did. MR. NEMSCHICK: Um-hmm. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have that in writing cause we don't have it in our file? MR. NEMSCHICK: I don't have it in writing, no, but what -- what I couldn't continue CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't understand construction with. Well -- MR. NEMSCHICK: I mean there's no interior plumbing there's no -- Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 159 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is actually water that is in the closet that's inside the garage, the now one-car garage, there is a water spigot and shutoff valve. MR. NEMSCHICK: An outdoor spigot. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's inside the garage. It's in a closet in the garage. MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which I saw when I inspected the site. MR. NEMSCHICK: Well, I mean they're putting the pool filter in the back of the garage so they had service -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's nothing to do with the pool filter. MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The pool filters that's on the side on top of the retaining wall. MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay. Are we counting that as interior plumbing because there's a spigot on the side of the garage? CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: It's not on the side of the garage. It's inside the garage in a closet, which is adjacent to the wall that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 you put up for the purposes of the creation of the cabana. MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whatever. Okay? MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just so the record shows what's going on over there. MR. NEMSCHICK: I understand. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, why do you need plumbing and heating for a cabana and half bath that's for seasonal use? MR. NEMSCHICK: I don't need heating. Alls I need is plumbing. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So this is an unheated building? MR. NEMSCHICK: Um-hmm. Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. You have called out on these new plans unheated storage on the second floor. MR. NEMSCHICK: Always has been there. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a fully finished rather attractive full height space with lots of windows and lights and so on and electric and sheetrock and beautiful finished PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 161 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 steps going up there. Are you actually going to just use it for storage? MR. NEMSCHICK: I'm not using it. The client's using it and that's what they told me they were using it for. I don't -- I mean, we've been back and forth with this. I mean, I can't tell my clients that they can't build something that's within the Code. The way they use it, if they violate the Code in the future, that's a violation of -- I mean it's not really my -- I'm not here to police my clients. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There are also gas lines installed right next to the structure; what's that for? MR. NEMSCHICK: For the pool filter. The pool heater. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have to have gas lines for that? MR. NEMSCHICK: Well, they have a heater for the pool. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They have a heater for the pool. Okay. Let's see what else. Drainage onsite. There was an old retaining Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 162 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 wall right along the boundary of that Carpenter right-of-way. MR. NEMSCHICK: It's still there. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's still there. MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then, of course, there's the new one that was built -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct, they increased it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- around the pool and it's a substantial -- from grade, I don't know what the height is. I was out there, but from grade on Carpenter, which is really just just a pedestrian access to the beach, I assume for some people in the area. MR. NEMSCHICK: Sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was so eroded, it is so rutted, as a matter of fact, there's literally a hole right next to where the steps start as a consequence of I'm sure that huge rain that we had. MR. NEMSCHICK: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That probably created that gully and the pit. There's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 clearly going to be a consequence and maintenance issue along that right-of-way. MR. NEMSCHICK: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have any onsite drainage plans that you could show -- I saw a drywell on the site plan. How is the runoff over that retaining wall going to be handled or is it not? MR. NEMSCHICK: I'm not certain there would be runoff. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think it would turn into a waterfall. In a heavy rain? MR. NEMSCHICK: But I'm not understanding why it would turn into a waterfall. I mean I can put drywells in there. I mean we're also willing to -- the client has, you know, plans to landscape this whole thing so that there's a green belt there so that you don't see the retaining wall, you don't see any of this and, you know, that will also obviously shore up the soil. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would help. MR. NEMSCHICK: Yeah, absolutely. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The root structure would help. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. NEMSCHICK: Yeah, but I mean if, you know, if there is a problem drainage-wise, I mean we're bound by construction codes to maintain all runoff on our site. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right. MR. NEMSCHICK: If we need to, we would definitely put in a drywell in there. You know, I'll put a French drain or something across the wall so that we can mitigate any kind of runoff, absolutely. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I have no more questions. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The fact that, you know, the unheated storage upstairs, you know, usually most of the ones that we see are uninsulated and, you know, you just have bare studs showing. You know, this is completely sheetrocked and very tastefully done second story. MEMBER HORNING: No questions. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to clear some things up. I mean the Notice of Disapproval clearly states that the permit examiner was -- certainly reviewed the record PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 165 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 and it said that there would be no sleeping in there. So I'm assuming that you're okay with that that is part of the happen in this building. going to be any sleeping, -- what's going to That there's not the family is restricted from that, right? NR. NEMSCHICK: Right. There's not -- again, there's nothing on my drawings that will call out for a -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, no. I just thought I heard you say that we got another decision that didn't have sleeping. MR. NEMSCHICK: No. plumbing. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: the restriction of No, interior That was just the MEMBER DINIZIO: Ail right. So it's no interior plumbing and it can't be habitable, which is obvious -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Again, it's not going to be heated. It's -- the bathroom is supposed to be seasonal. Once the pool is done -- Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's what you're before us -- you're before us now just for that bathroom, right? MR. NEMSCHICK: Just for the bath. MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, when you give your reasons though it says, "We are seeking relief from the previous grant of add plumbing and heating to an improved structure"; that's not the case? MR. NEMSCHICK: MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, say again? In your application for your variance it reads in number two, '~The variance sought by the applicant cannot be achieved," and for whatever reason you wrote, ~We are seeking relief from a previous grant to add plumbing and heat for an approved accessory structure." CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: you about heat earlier. MR. NEMSCHICK: miss-type. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. MR. NEMSCHICK: I mea, That's why I asked Oh. That's definitely a something that we're asking for. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. that's not I apologize. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That makes a difference. That's why I asked you earlier. MR. NEMSCHICK: It makes a huge difference and I didn't understand the question, definitely. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's so -- we can't grant it as applied for because your reasons state -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Understood. Understood. We'll amend that and remove that, definitely. MEMBER DINIZIO: It (inaudible) has to be an amendment, it's your reasons. We -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, you should send us a letter indicating that. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, absolutely. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think the whole issue here is what I'm saying what I've heard, and I'm not saying that everybody else is saying this, you're acting as an agent for the applicant, okay. MR. NEMSCHICK: Right. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You have told us that you cannot police your applicants and I mean understandably we understand that, but you are PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 acting as an agent for the applicant. You are a professional individual with a professional license. MR. NEMCHICK: Um-hmm. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And you've come before us before and I'm just mentioning that in general. Okay, so that is the reason why I'm going over things and my fellow colleagues are going over (inaudible) and that's the issue. Okay, so if you would submit that letter to us that that is what you understand and that is what you have built, there are no hidden waterlines, there are no hidden sanitary lines in the walls that you aware or that you constructed or that were called out by you on any plans other than the plans that you've submitted to us; that's what we would appreciate, that's what I would appreciate. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Say again, any plans other than the ones we've submitted to you? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Anything other than this that contractors may have used, okay -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Jerry, Jerry -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Say again. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER DINIZIO: How about we just approve a plan, we make a decision that these plans, the ones we stamp whatever it is, and they don't show the plumbing that we don't want them to have, they don't show any of that, then you know I don't know how a professional can vouch for his customers after the fact and as a professional I would certainly, if I was inspecting a fire system, and I said well, no, no they're going to test this every week and they don't test it for two years and I say, well, I'm going to see to it that they do. Well, I don't have responsibility -- we have plans, if we agree that the plans are what we want to see on this piece of property, what we're granting, then that's what they must follow. I think you're asking Mr. Nemschick for additional assurances that this is not going to be an apartment or whatever -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we condition it. We can just condition the decision -- however, you will submit something indicating the application was in error that you are not proposing heating. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, sure. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That I would like to have and just let the record repeat that you also said that you will be doing landscaping to mitigate runoff and that you will comply with onsite drainage codes. MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, that's it. MR. NEMSCHICK: Can we just revisit. I don't understand the question that I was just asked though. That I'm -- I mean I'm not -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'll clearly state the question. The question is this, okay, and this has nothing to do with you, this is a generic question that's asked, all the time, okay, specifically not asked by my colleagues but asked by myself when I was the Chairperson of this Board. There's no comment about anything else and that is you are a licensed professional, you're licensed by the state of New York and you've produced plans that are before us. Those particular plans are what we draw our decision on. Okay, normally those PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 plans don't -- and this has nothing to do with you, this is a generic question, okay, normally these plans do not indicate anything other than what you have given us, okay, we have seen alternate plans and have actually found alternate plans in buildings where specific drainage systems are called out so that bathrooms can be placed in there. Okay and I ma saying to you and maybe my phrasing was not absolutely correct and maybe my colleague is absolutely correct in what he was saying, that's Mr. Dinizio, specifically what as we see it today this is what we see and this is what we understand and that's it. That's as it stands, that's my final to you and that's all I'm saying. It's not meant to be sarcastic -- MR. NEMSCHICK: What's the question though? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The question was you know of no other alternate plans for this building other than what presently is before us. MR. NEMCHICK: for this building, First off, alternate plans I mean that's not what's on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 172 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the table here. I mean, I can't even answer that question. If somebody else drew a plan for this building or if there are plans for this building that have another function to them, I mean I don't think that you should even be asking me that question. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr. Nemschick we have gone over this building three times. MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We have discussed dormers, we have gotten the building has continued to be built, okay, as you just mentioned to the Chairperson, okay, and that is the reason I ask the question. Okay, I am not singling you out. I have asked this question before to many, many people. MR. NEMSCHICK: Okay, I won't answer the question then. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Then fine, don't answer the question. MR. NEMSCHICK: Fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to address this application? Board members have anymore questions? Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Okay, then I'd like to make a motion to close this hearing subject to receipt of a letter from Mr. Nemschick confirming that the application was for an unheated structure -- MR. NEMSCHICK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and, you know, indicating willingness to landscape and conform to code. MR. NEMSCHICK: And, you know, I'll reiterate the idea that this is not habitable space as well in the letter. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Great, that's fine. MR. NEMSCHICK: I would like to be on the record to say that that's what I've told my clients that it's inside the Code that this is what you can do. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. MR. NEMSCHICK: something after that, If they choose to do I can't, you know, again CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're not responsible. MR. NEMSCHICK: Yeah, I mean it's, you know, it's -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We understand that. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 174 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That's an enforcement issue. MR. NEMSCHICK: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not up to you. Okay, I have a motion. Is there a second? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING ~6362 - Bruce Goldsmith MEMBER GOEHRINGER: "Request for Variances from Code Section 280-124, based on an application for building permit and the Building Inspector's October 8, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed construction of an accessory two car garage, (1) less than the code-required front yard setback of 35 feet, (2) less than the code- required side yard setback of 20 feet, at 2550 Hobart Rd., Southold, NY. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: the record, please. MR. GOLDSMITH: Bruce CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: CTM #64-3-8." State your name for Goldsmith. Mr. Goldsmith, good afternoon. We have before us a variance for an accessory two-car garage with a side yard setback of 3.1 feet where the code requires 20 feet and a front yard setback of 20.8 feet where the code requires 35 feet. What would you like to tell us? MR. GOLDSMITH: Just that I'd like to replace the garage right exactly where it was, basically. It's an additional 6 feet and it's going toward our house and it's not going PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 toward the road any more, but it's the same exact spot where the existing garage was. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The normal process that exists today is that as it has always existed since the inception of zoning is that we may have to deal in a democratic manner, three particular votes in general carry the resolution and there may be the Board may have a particular problem with the 3.1 feet. The Board may have a problem, and may voice it now and they may not, with the 20.8 feet. There could be a modification in both directions, meaning a little bit farther away from the road and a little bit farther away from the property line. The driveway schematic is very nice, okay, I'm just telling you, so in order to deal with the deliberation process we ask the applicants if you will accept alternate relief, okay, based upon some minor modifications within those two side -- the front yard and the side yard. I'm just asking if you will consider that. MR. GOLDSMITH: Well, the existing garage was there and if you notice on the pictures PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that I sent some of the garages are right out in -- right on the road on Hobart Road and when my father built that building way back in the late 40s it was a tin building and it just collapsed in a minor wind storm, but we also own the property adjacent to our property so it's not really affecting any of the neighbors or anything like that. It's our boat shop who owns the property right next to our home, so it's -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The other thing that we would like you to be aware of is that we would like a person to be able to work on that side of the building without going on, even if it belongs to you, someday you may sell that, okay, being able to put at least a ladder on the property without being on somebody else's property. I'm not saying that you're selling that property, you've owned it since the beginning of time. I knew your father very well, okay. So relief is the issue, okay, and it's the degree of relief. When you're -- when you divide, you know, 20 into 5 the percentages are very great, okay, and that's what we work with us percentages, Bruce, and Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 178 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that is the reason why I'm asking that question. Okay. The majority of the people say yeah, I will go with alternate relief. It depends on how the Board feels and how these people -- how we feel about this particular location. A small modification one way or another I don't think is significantly going to affect the position of this garage as long as it doesn't impact the driveway aspect of, you know, your ingress and egress. MR. GOLDSMITH: Yeah, you're right. I think if the garage goes out further toward the north it's just going to look awful to be honest with you. It's going to be like right in the middle of the house, if you see it from the property. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm. MR. GOLDSMITH: And I think where the other one was I think it was perfect, it's, I mean, if I have to come in a little bit maybe I can do it, but I'd prefer to have it the way the old one was if I can do it. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'm just telling you that's what I'm asking you. Okay, we most recently had one on Peconic Bay Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Boulevard in Laurel an equally beautiful waterfront lot as yours is, except on the Peconic Bay and not on this wonderful creek that you're on. Okay and the original proposal was for 5.7 and I'm not saying we're going to take fragments of a foot here. It's probably going to be around that figure. Okay, so I'm just throwing that out to you. I don't want to see something denied when it should be approved, but there has to be some variation here in the deliberation process. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just ask a quick question. You're proposing this garage as unheated and unfinished? MR. GOLDSMITH: Correct. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, the second floor is primarily for storage. MR. GOLDSMITH: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The balcony, I presume, is just decorative? MR. GOLDSMITH: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, just so that you understand the Board can do what it chooses to, but when a nonconforming structure is demolished then all bets are off. It loses PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 its nonconforming status cause it's no longer there. So we're, in a sense, starting from scratch. While I'm very sympathetic to your proposal to leave it where it is, certainly the setback from the road you have there's plenty of other accessory structures all up and down, you know, Hobart that aren't even closer to the road than what you're proposing, could it go back a foot or two more, probably, but the Board is required by law to attempt to grant relief that is justified, the smallest variance that we can reasonably do without causing hardship to the applicant. That's why I think Jerry was asking about that side yard moving it over another two feet or something, you know, it not going to really put it anywhere close to the middle of your house, but it would provide a little bit more space between your hedgerow and the back side of that garage so that you could maintain it, get to it, that sort of thing. I think that's what he's really talking about -- just so that, you know, this is just my attempt to explain what the process that we have to go through is all about. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. GOLDSMITH: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: any other questions. MEMBER HORNING: plans or ideas about Okay. I don't have Anybody here have any? Did you work out any attaching the new garage to the house somehow? MR. GOLDSMITH: Never. It's too far away and I just want to put it back right where it was existing. I mean, I could have left that one wall up (inaudible). MEMBER HORNING: It still would have been a demolition though. MR. GOLDSMITH: It would have been an eyesore cause this came down about a year and a half, two years ago. MEMBER HORNING: Right. MR. GOLDSMITH: I'm not playing that game. I could have left that wall up and my neighbors would have screamed bloody murder. MEMBER HORNING: The Building Department apparently still would have considered it a demolished building, but your proposal is to rebuild it exactly on an existing slab? MR. GOLDSMITH: Exactly where it was before. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER HORNING: MR. GOLDSMITH: concrete foundation. MEMBER HORNING: MR. GOLDSMITH: But that was there existing, sand in there. MEMBER HORNING: MR. GOLDSMITH: On a slab? Right. No, it's a Concrete foundation. all that concrete I removed it and put Yeah, go ahead. (Inaudible) sand because it was cracked and I got rid of all the old concrete. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's brand new construction, new foundation? MR. GOLDSMITH: Exactly. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Any other questions? MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean, let's go along Jerry's line here. I mean, I see you're going to be pulling into the garage on the side. In other words the garage doors aren't going to be facing the road, MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. GOLDSMITH: they're going to be facing Exactly. -- north -- Exactly the way it was on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 183 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the original. MEMBER DINIZIO: (inaudible) -- whatever. So if you moved it, you know, another 2 feet away from the property line, so it gave you 5 foot back there, would that be of any detriment to you, really? The car turning around and it'll be a problem turning around, there's going to be MR. GOLDSMITH: minimum as possible I would like do as just because of the aesthetic because if you have your house here and then you're going to move the -- say the house is here and then the garage was originally over here and then it's in front of the house; it's going to look awful. MEMBER DINIZIO: what, 6 feet? MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: and parcel -- MR. GOLDSMITH: You know, you're adding Right. You know, so you're part Yeah, but 6 feet -- like it was 18 and it's going to 24. Then it's even going to come out more. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I agree with you, but -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. GOLDSMITH: look good. MEMBER DINIZIO: And it's not going to I agree with you, but you're part of that problem. MR. GOLDSMITH: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: You're moving it to the center, so -- I mean we could vary a wall, any wall we want. So you know you're asking for a lot compared to the law and, you know, your situation even if you had left one wall up really wouldn't have really made any difference cause the building was demolished. So if you can't live with 5 feet on that side then we need to discuss that. What about turning the building around? know, it seems pretty square to me, 24 I don't by 24. MR. GOLDSMITH: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: So (inaudible). MR. GOLDSMITH: No, I don't want to turn it around. I just want it the way it was before. MEMBER DINIZIO: So what about if you turn the doors around so they're facing the road. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 185 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. GOLDSMITH: tree there. MEMBER DINIZIO: all these questions. You can't do it there's a Okay, this is why we ask The driveway itself, any drywells in there? Where's your cesspools? MR. GOLDSMITH: The drywell is all the way at the end of the driveway near the garage door -- I mean the house door going into the house. MEMBER DINIZIO: MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: Cesspools, too? Yeah, they're down there. So you wouldn't be driving over your cesspools with the way it is right now? MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No, that's right. And would you accept alternate relief or would you just rather we turn it down? MR. GOLDSMITH: Well, what happens if I turn it down, what would I have to do after that? If it gets turned down, do I have any - CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can't build your garage. MR. GOLDSMITH: I mean would I have to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 come back in and ask for the -- MEMBER DINIZIO: You have to come in with anther application with something that's different. MR. GOLDSMITH: No, I don't want to do that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You shouldn't, we don't want you to do that either. MR. GOLDSMITH: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What we're getting at is that the Code requires your side yard to be, if you were to be conforming, 20 feet. Now, that would put it right in front of your house. MR. GOLDMSITH: Put neighbor's. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: MR. GOLDSMITH: It'll CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: it on the other No, not quite. be close. That would put it way over, so we realize you can't conform. It's not really feasible, that's why you're here. What we're attempting to do is to tell you that 3 feet, proposed at 3 feet when the Code requires 20, that's a huge variance. Okay, we're just attempting to grant it, we're PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 187 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 discussing the granting of it. Alternative relief means we're going to try to maybe make it 5 or 6 feet just so that it isn't as huge. It's still huge. It's still a big variance if you look at the percentage of relief. That's what the Board is really asking you and because the likelihood is that we would grant it, but with a slightly bigger side yard, where you want it maybe a foot back a little, maybe a foot or 2 over, that's what alternative relief means. MR. GOLDSMITH: I (inaudible) -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't have to do anything. MR. GOLDSMITH: Right. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That means that we just deliberate and we say no, we're not going to do it as you applied for, we're going to give it to you but it's going to be a little bit pushed back this way, a little pushed back that way. MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Then you could do -- I mean you could make the garage 2 feet smaller if you wanted to. I mean whatever the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 188 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 difference, that respect. If you chose, it'll be 22 by 24, if you so MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: don't -- MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: leeway -- MR. GOLDSMITH: you could make the building up in if not 24 by 24, chose. Right. But, like I said, if you I thought of that, too. If you don't give us a No, I thought of that too. I could do 22 by 24. MEMBER DINIZIO: You could, I mean it's not -- if we turn it down cause you just don't -- you say I want this and nothing else, we'll turn it down if we can't get three votes, but if we say can no, look let's alter a little bit, how about 2 feet, how about 5 feet, and you know we come up with something that perhaps you could live with -- MR. GOLDSMITH: MEMBER DINIZIO: MEMBER HORNING: That's fine. Okay. You could also incorporate a plan where -- make a plan where you incorporated an attached garage somehow to the single story -- to your dwelling there and Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 have an attached garage. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: lay of the land, plan and the Given the floor the house is MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, I -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think -- MR. GOLDSMITH: before. MEMBER HORNING: idea. MR. GOLDSMITH: there. (Inaudible) where it was That was an alternative It wouldn't look good CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, well there's drywells there and there's cesspools around and all that stuff, but okay I think we're pretty clear on it. Is there anybody else in the audience that would like to address this -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a question. THE COURT: Okay, just one second. Is there anyone here that wants to address this application? Okay, go ahead. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: just a quick comment. not Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 189 Okay, Mr. Goldsmith, The existing house has 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 190 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 got a side yard of 10.2 and reviewing the survey as what reflects is out there the house is incorrectly drawn. I just want to point that out and also there were no overhead wires that I noticed. MR. GOLDSMITH: They're underground. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, the survey indicates that so you would be building your garage over the overhead power lines. MR. GOLDSMITH: No, they're underground. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. MR. GOLDSMITH: So they're not a problem. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: The applicant is going to accept alternative relief? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It sounds like it. MEMBER HOHNING: (inaudible) ? MR. GOLDSMITH: As necessary Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, hearing no other comment, I'll make a motion to close this hearing, reserve decision for later date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 191 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING #6316 - Louis and Luba Corso CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is a carryover and this hearing was opened for the purpose of taking testimony and answering questions, exhausting questions regarding the deed that was submitted after the previous hearing. MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf of Louis and Luba Corso and others because we did provide you with the additional member family LLC, which was created. I also wanted to make sure that my understanding is that all the prior record is continuing including the submissions that have been made. There's been a lot of submissions. I've had a response to Ms. Wickham's memorandum that I think she submitted at the last hearing and I responded to that. In addition, there was other submissions. So if you got a copy of all our deeds with the current status of ownership and I'm sure I have other things here. I have different memos. I have one dated February 4th and then I have the (inaudible) memo, February 12. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, before we get started, yes, we have all of those materials, PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 however, the Board really can't accept the large package that you submitted, that you also submitted to Damon Rallis. MRS. MOORE: On March 15th, the March 15tn packet. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, dated March 15. That is not something that the Board opened the hearing for. We had already gone over the issue of whether it was in the side yard, the front yard, the agricultural structures, what Ag structures were in the area and so on. I think Mr. Rallis did a rather detailed analysis of this and has it available for you to look at, but we did not accept it. The Board has not seen it because we discussed it at a special meeting and decided that this was not something that we could legally accept. MRS. MOORE: Well, I would object to that in that Mr. Rallis at a hearing stated that to his knowledge he issues permits a certain way and he claimed that that is his understanding of the way permits have been issued as far as Ag buildings not having to meet accessory structure and side yard issues and I felt very PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 strongly that that was an error. So I went back and checked the Town record. I don't know what Mr. Rallis submitted as his -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We didn't accept any -- MRS. MOORE: I don't think he submitted anything other than his statement. Yes. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He didn't submit it. No, he wrote a detailed written analysis of this. We did not look at it, we did not accept it. I happen to know he did it. MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, did you -- did you accept his -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we did not and we did not -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, I had no idea because -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and we did not with yours. I'm just telling you he did it. We did not see it. We didn't discuss it. Neither did we see or discuss this. Ail we talked about was the fact that the subject of this has to do with agricultural structures, that we have heard testimony on repeatedly from both parties and the Building Inspector. We did not open this hearing up again to Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 revisit that discussion. MRS. MOORE: Well, I would just, for the record, I would object to that in that that issue was addressed by Mr. Rallis. I went to the Town records. It is part, I mean, everything that is here is a matter of public record in the Building Department records in the computer of the Town records. So to the extent you should have knowledge of these documents is if you sat at the computer as I did and pulled up the history of permits that have been issued. It is a matter of knowledge that the Board is presumed to have because those are Town records. This compilation comes directly from that source and, therefore, I would object that you should incorporate this into the record since it is a duplication of what is a Town record. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what I'm trying to say is that that should have been presented when we were taking testimony regarding the nature of side yards and agricultural structures, at that time. MRS. MOORE: I wouldn't -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That hearing was PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 closed. MRS. MOORE: Well, until Mr. Rallis -- I would disagree with that because until Mr. Rallis stated it I would have no idea that Mr. Rallis believed that that is the state of the law and that is how he should issue permits. It is completely contrary and 180 degrees from what I understand from my 20-some years of practice in Southold and the records at the Town. So this is a compilation of that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The only thing that I can say about that is at the hearing when -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: ahead. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: time of the Pat -- I'm sorry, go Pat, if you feel so strongly about this what I suggest that you do is formally request that the Board reopen this hearing for the purpose of accepting what you've put together. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: They would need a unanimous vote to reopen the hearing for that purpose. Okay, so if you'd like to do that, PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 196 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you can. MRS. purposes MOORE: I will do that for the of accepting this. I appreciate the Town Attorney's advice. I believe that it should -- it could be accepted without reopening, but for the purposes of following her advice to the Board I would ask that the hearing be reopened for the purposes of accepting what is documents in the Town records and a compilation of that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we've already I don't want -- you know, if we don't have to, to have to have another hearing. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: All of this stuff - MRS. MOORE: I actually -- CFUtIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, it's -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You preserved most of these facts and most of these issues in the record already. So to the extent that anybody would like to challenge the Board's determination, all of that stuff would certainly be relevant in a court challenge. I mean it's preserved. The issues are preserved. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MRS. MOORE: Okay. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay. MRS. MOORE: The issues are preserved, but I would like the Board to really -- I guess -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: They just don't want to open -- MRS. MOORE: Understand their own Code, yeah, understand the record. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- the hearing (inaudible) and a whole 'nother set of arguments when you've had ample time to address these issues. I mean I've looked at the record and the timing, Pat, so if you want ask the Board to reopen the hearing. If not, the facts and issues on the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's move on and (inaudible) -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- record. Yeah. A~d you can make it in your Article 78s when you so choose to file them cause nobody's going to be happy. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Okay, well for the record, I PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 ask that this be incorporated into your record and that you open it for that purpose and should you choose not to reopen it I would ask that you refer back to the previous records and the Town records that are in the computer as to how agricultural structures are evaluated and considered by both the Building Department and this Board. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you wish to proceed or Ms. Wickham? How do you -- MRS. MOORE: Well I -- I reopened the -- I don't know what you want -- MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, how about I make the motion, all right? MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: I make the motion that we open the hearing for the purposes of accepting the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Material. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- material -- MEMBER GOEHRINGER: motion. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll second that Yeah, aye. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If -- just understand you should not -- you should also PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 give Ms. Wickham ample time to respond to what she's giving. So you're going to be giving both parties a chance. She needs to look at it and she should be able to respond to it. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, for the record, she was served at the same time -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay. MRS. MOORE: -- so she has had it since March -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes, but if she called the office and they said they were rejecting it, then there would be no reason for her to draft a response to it, Pat. MRS. MOORE: That's why I -- I just happened to (inaudible). ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: if you're going to do this, So just to be fair, you should be opening the record and then giving Ms. Wickham a certain specified amount of time to respond. MRS. MOORE: And I have no objection to having her -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we have to accept Mr. Rallis' to respond. MRS. MOORE: comments as well and he has Yes. Right. And I have -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 and for the record I have no objection because I don't know what the Board is asking for today and it may be that we both need time to know what it is that you're asking of us because you said you opened it for deeds, but I don't know -- beyond that, that's all I know. So it may be that both of us, after we talk today, we may want to respond or give you something in writing. So to the extent that I can certainly stipulate that I would have no objection to Ms. Wickham reviewing this and responding however she feels fit, it is all part of the record. So -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we have a motion and a second and it's -- BOARD SECRETARY: That microphone does not work. MS. WICKHAM: I'll talk loudly. Abigail Wickham. I don't want to prolong this, but I was going to object today to your consideration of those documents. I am objecting to the motion. I think the Board heard ample testimony. The fact that there may have been matters of public record in this document PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 inaudible) records include -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Gail, I'm sorry to interrupt you -- MS. WICKHAM: -- (inaudible) on the record. I must object to your -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can't -- BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah, we're not getting you on the record. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- get it on the record because that mike isn't working. That doesn't work. The mike is not working. You can come -- you can go there or you can use one of these. MEMBER DINIZIO: microphone. Pat, would you share the MS. WICKHAM: Abigail Wickham. I would like to object to inclusion of the additional material in the record. The Board reopened this hearing for a limited purpose. I would like to object to the motion to include it. The fact that it is public record documents ostensibly does not give the Board the right to review it without an analysis and, frankly, I think the additional amount of material and effort that would be required here is not Pugliese CouR Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 going to be productive to this hearing. We've fully explored the issues during the first hearing, subject to whatever happens today in your limited review of the deeds for which you did open the hearing. Thank you. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why don't we hold that motion, Jim, until the end of this presentation that we're going to deal with and then we'll see how it goes? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just table it for the moment. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Table it for the moment. MEMBER HORNING: Can I ask a question pertaining to the motion though? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. MEMBER HORNING: If we approved of that motion and opened the hearing let's say right now for admission of whatever documentation would we then close the hearing again? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You should probably review the material and then -- MEMBER HORNING: Keep it open until -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- keep it open and if you would like to have -- if it brings Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 additional questions that the Board would have, then you would have to bring everybody back and continue your public discourse of what had been submitted additionally. MEMBER HORNING: At a future date. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Correct. MEMBER HORNING: And based on the calendar -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just for that (inaudible) -- MEMBER HORNING: -- scheduling can we have it two or three months in the future rather than next month? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes, of course. Yes. 203 MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Ail right, that's what I want to clarify. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, why don't we proceed with what the purpose for this hearing is all about and then we'll -- before we conclude, we'll discuss how the Board wants to proceed with this document. All right? Ken, this is yours, why don't you begin questioning? PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes. Okay, I guess this would be directed to Ms. Wickham. I have a question specifically about the Steele property and the right-of-way. The northern right-of-way, 50-foot right-of-way that abuts the Corso's. Do the Steeles have access to that right-of-way? MS. WICKHAM: right-of-way? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: MS. WICKHAM: No. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: access to that? MS. WICKHAM: Board understands The east-west 50-foot Yeah. They do not have No. I want to be sure the that that property did border the northern boundary of the Steele property when they acquired it; however, Mr. Corso purchased that northerly strip of the Steele farm from the Steeles including that right-of-way. He then relocated the right-of- way south to the new northerly border of the Steele property and Mr. Steele does not have a right-of-way over it. That's what -- that lot line change, which was approved by the Town, is what made the garage that was the subject Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 205 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 deed, way. of a prior appeal to this Board so -- within the 25 -- 20 feet from the line, it shrunk that whole area. It also enabled Mr. Corso to expand his lots along the Sound and have bigger lots and possibly an extra lot. I don't -- I may be wrong about that, but he was able to use that property to expand his Sound- front lots by basically moving the right-of- way and this -- his lots further to the south. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. The reason for that question was the deed you submitted for the Steeles -- MS. WICKHAM: Yes. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- and the surveys that I have they weren't making sense. MS. WICKHAM: Correct. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The deed didn't match the survey. MS. WICKHAM: Correct. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm going what's going on here? Did this deed -- according to the the Steeles have access to the right-of- So I guess the deed has been modified or MS. WICKHAM: My letter to you stated Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 that the deed I submitted was for the original parcel. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MS. WICk: And that there was a subsequent deed to the Corsos for that northerly piece, which I do not have a recorded deed for cause it went to the Corsos and I suggested that perhaps Mrs. Moore should submit it to you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, so just to reiterate is that the Steeles do not have ingress and egress rights to that 50-foot right-of-way that runs east and west on the north property line. MS. WICKHAM: That's correct. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MEMBER HORNING: Who does, besides the Corsos or is it Corsos' property as you say? MS. WICKHAM: Those three or four lots on the Sound to the north of the Steele property have access. Mr. Steele -- I'm sorry, Mr. Corso -- Salinger and there's a new house in between them, Soja. MEMBER HORNING: Even though the Corsos bought the entire right-of-way and included it PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 in their property, they also have honored right-of-way for the other neighbors; is that about right? MS. WICKHAM: They had to. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I would think MS. WICK/-L~M: They had deeded rights. MEMBER HORNING: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, that was my question. MS. WICKHAM: That Soja and Salinger property, that's the only access to that piece, to those parcels if you look at the tax map. MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thank you. MRS. MOORE: Just a clarification. The - - there was a lot line change. The right-of- way used to be on the northerly end of the piece that was conveyed and it was relocated to the southerly end of the right-of-way as part of the lot line change because at the Town at one point or another the Planning Board long ago thought that they were going to build a northerly access route along all of Oregon Road, a parallel road. So that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Actually ended up -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see. MRS. MOORE: -- you know, with the sale of the (Inaudible) it became no longer an issue. The Steeles do -- they retained the right and it's shown on the deed, they retained the right for utility purposes, but not for access, so they do have the right for utilities. There is a reservation in the deed MEMBER SCHNEIDER: For utilities. Okay. Correct. I could certainly it was a public record so MRS. MOORE: provide for you, it's -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, sorry, could you just turn the microphone. MRS. MOORE: Sure, sorry about that. I do have -- I have the original agreement for the sale of that property and I would state that I want a clarification with respect to Mr. Steele's garage. The garage was -- the original garage was on the property when this property was transferred and the Corsos had no issue with the existing garage. They made a stipulation or in the -- they specifically Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 stated as long as everything complies with zoning they have no issue and that's been the problem that we feel that there has not been compliance with zoning. The original garage was not an objection. The only time we objected was when he tried to expand the garage. That was last -- it was another hearing long ago. So I can provide for you, the record might be clearer, a little diagram that was attached to the contract at the time that showed the area of transfer. That area when you asked who has access there was the Maudlin property that's the furthest to the east. This is all part of the Nina Stevens subdivision way back when that created the lots. Maudlin was the owner, now Salinger the furthest to the east, then Nina Stevens who became -- the Corsos purchased that property and then ended up selling it to Mr. and Mrs. Soja. The Corsos still own two of the parcels, the tennis court and the main house and then actually to the west the Corsos purchased the land and developed two lots, one or two lots to the west which derive their utilities, I believe from this right-of-way. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 210 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 So that's the history for clarification. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: Would you like a copy and I'll submit it, I only have the one, the contract and the deeds that went along with it? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are there any questions, Jerry? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not at this particular time. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, just maybe a clarification cause I wasn't here the whole thing, but we're not talking about the garage, we're just talking about those other structures that are there close to that property line, right? MRS. MOORE: Yeah. No, the garage received a variance -- MEMBER DINIZIO: They're all farm structures? MRS. MOORE: The garage? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. Everything else. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The hoop houses. MRS. MOORE: Well, that's where -- MS. WICKHAM: There's only one structure that is the subject of this variance and that is an agricultural hoop house. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I mean there's other stuff there, but it's not -- MRS. MOORE: There's other stuff there and Damon has said that he hasn't yet decided what to do with that metal container -- MEMBER DINIZIO: MRS. MOORE: -- MEMBER DINIZIO: MRS. MOORE: MS. WICKHAM: hearing. Okay. which he thought was -- Ail right -- -- going to be removed. Not the subject of this MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so it's just agricultural structures that -- MRS. MOORE: That hoop house that was -- MEMBER DINIZIO: -- the farmer feels is necessary for his farm. Right, not -- he's not parking his car there, it has something to do with the farm itself, right? MRS. MOORE: I think that that's somewhat of a disputed issue as far as he has two PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 principal uses that he's claimed, the farming as well as the residence, his dwelling, and there is kind of an overlap of use of that structure, but again we defer to the Code and the use of that structure is something that Damon says he doesn't look at the inside of a building so we don't know what a use of a structure might be. Our position is that even as an Ag or a combined use, you know, if there was a horse farm with a house, it might be the stable it can be whatever. It can be a combined use, we still believe that the issue is that you can't place accessory structures, whether it's accessory structure to a farm. If the farming is a principle use the accessory building is the use and the building part of it and in this case we have a dwelling where this has also been an area where they're accessory residential use is MS. WICKHAM: The question is is (inaudible) use. That was not the question. this an agricultural building, the answer is yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I mean -- MS. WICK~L~24: That was fully explored at Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the prior hearing. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but it says so here in our legal notice it's an as-built agricultural hoop house for storage. MS. WICKHAM: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: So I just -- what I wanted to know was your intention is that it's a farm thing. MS. WICKHAM: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay, that's all I -- that's all I really needed to know. MRS. MOORE: Okay and that has been the issue part of the dispute -- MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the crux of this thing. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Right. And whether or not it's -- even if it is an Ag structure it still has to comply with side yard setback. A structure in a side yard, side yard being where the principal residence is creates a side yard, otherwise the farm has no side yard and it's just a farm. So -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone else? Is there anyone else in the audience who would like to address this application? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 Anything else? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We still have the motion. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I know. MEMBER DINIZIO: I have a motion. I'd like -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm just asking about this one. MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to move the motion. MEMBER HORNING: Don't we need to close this aspect of the hearing first? MEMBER DINIZIO: No. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, we don't want to close it until we -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we don't -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Because we're talking about opening the hearing. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, simply for the purposes of accepting this document and responses to it, okay, we're not going to have any testimony regarding that today, if we have any at all. MEMBER DINIZIO: Like I said, I just Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 moved -- I made a motion and however you want to address it is fine with me, but -- CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Well, we have to call the question then and vote. MS. WICKHAM: May I make one other comment? I would like the Board to be aware that in order for you to review this document, for me to respond to it, it's going to be an extraordinary expense. This matter was brought by the owner, the adjoining owner. This has been a very expensive proceeding for Mr. Steele to defend a building he got a CO for and I would just like to ask the Board in deciding whether -- on the motion cause this is going to be an additional extraordinary expense for an applicant -- to the owner of the property. MRS. MOORE: And I would dispute that because what I have here is just a synopsis of the CO permits that I found and the rest of the volume of this printed document is the documents that I based it on on the record. So what I did is I copied in this instance only the CO the building permit application that would identify what the structure was and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 whatever survey so we could identify what structure we're talking about and the use. So she doesn't need anything more than to look at what I did and look at the attachment and see if she reads the document any differently than I do. So -- MS. WICKHAM: And I have to analyze every single application she has referred to in here and respond to it in relation to this and that's a huge undertaking and it -- you know, we went through all this at the hearing. You closed the hearing. This came in after the hearing was closed. I would strongly object to prolonging it any further. I think the issues before the Board are very clear. MEMBER DINIZIO: All right, ready to go. I make the motion. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have a motion before us and a second to reopen this hearing for the single purpose of accepting this document from Ms. Moore and permitting time for the Board to review it, or response from any interested parties and Ms. Wickham and so on. We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye, please. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 COLLECTIVE: Aye. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Nay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, no. I didn't ask that. Opposed? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Nay. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nay. Abstain? Motion does not carry. We needed a unanimous vote of the Board. Okay. Hearing no further comments on the purpose of the hearing today, I make a motion to close this hearing, later date. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: reserve decision for a Pat's going to give us additional information. MRS. MOORE: You wanted the -- I'm giving you the contract and the -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine. Okay, subject to receipt of contract from Ms. Moore, copies of what you've already talked about. MEMBER HORNING: I'll second it. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 HEARING #6344 - Theodore C. Martz, Jr. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: ~Requests for Variances under Code Sections 280-18 and 280-10, based on the Building Inspector's August 19, 2009 revised November 18, 2009 Notice of Disapproval and an application for a building permit for a subdivision and construction, disapproved for the following reasons: (1) lots merged under Section 280-10; when held in common ownership with the first lot at any time after July 1, 1983...and according to Town Code, the existing lots are merged, (2) proposed Parcel 1 will contain more than one dwelling, (3) subdivision will result in two lots having less than 40,000 square feet for each Parcel 1 & 2. Location of property: 555 Broadwaters Rd., Cutchogue. CTM 104-12-6.1." Good afternoon. MR. ESSEKS: Good afternoon. I'm Bill Esseks, I'm an attorney in Riverhead. I represent the applicant. The applicant is here. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, MR. Esseks. Thank you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 219 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MR. ESSEKS: I believe you copies of our application and I believe you have proof of proper mailing. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. MR. ESSEKS: May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you may. MR. ESSEKS: I wish you would look at I believe it's Exhibit A. Exhibit A shows the map of Nassau Point. There are hundreds of lots that are there. You can look at them and see that there is a substantial uniformity in the filing of the original map, which is the subject of the hearing today. There are I think it's over 150 lots, almost exactly the same width of 100 feet, they're 2 or 300 feet long. They're about two-thirds of an acre and I think our application is something that you can keep for future applications on Nassau Point. We want to recognize what the County recognizes and that is that we have two separate -- there's two lots. They're in the same ownership and there two lots and they're each slightly below 40,000 feet. We want to demerge the lots and I'd like you to follow PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 220 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 with me as I go through my application. In 1978 -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Esseks, just turn it a little closer to you. I just want to make sure that MR. ESSEKS: close. (inaudible). I can't wave my arms that CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. MR. ESSEKS: In 1978 as an aside but as something that is part of the record here, this Board granted a variance or a variance was granted to allow two lots on this property cross-wise instead of lengthwise. If you look in the record you'll see that. In 2007 the Building Inspector issued pre-existing Certificate of Occupancy certifying the dwellings and the cottage were pre-existing. So what we have on our property, a house and a cottage are valid. We don't want to keep them that way. We want to have two separate lots in the same physical conformance that exists today, but demerge them so that they're separate lots. We think we're entitled to that and we think that you should grant us the variance necessary to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 regularize that. The reason we're here is we asked for that determination from the Building Inspector and as your Notice said, he declined to give that for the reasons set forth in the record. Would you look at page 3 and 4 at the bottom of page 3 we do a neighborhood survey and it shows an Exhibit A and an Exhibit H. We should look at those, H has two parts to it and it shows virtually all of the lots on this part of Nassau Point. Dozens, if not hundreds of lots and you can see how they are all of similar width, similar length, similar size, and if you look at Exhibit H the first part of it, you'll see our two lots which are 199 and 200 and the aggregate 1.6 acres. Have you found that? MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR. ESSEKS: The next exhibit and I want to take you through the various process. It starts on page 5 but it folds over onto Exhibit I, H, I. On page 5 we start the various analysis, character of the neighborhood and the case law that we site says that where the nonconformance is PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 virtually universal that we are -- that helps us. It gets us towards an entitlement to an area variance because literally if you look at Exhibit I it says summary of existing conditions and it shows that there are 99.18 acres in these sections of the tax map. There are 135 lots. The average lot size is 0.73 acres. 117 of them are nonconforming, the percentage of lots that are nonconforming is 87 percent are nonconforming. The percentage of the lots under 0.79 acres or less is 100. The number of lots under 0.84 acres is 108, only 2 are larger than our combined lots, which added together are 1.61 acres. We then go through each of the maps and show you the acreage whether they're approved or nonconforming and I believe that that allows us to meet our burden to show the character of the neighborhood and the cases on pages 5 and 6 set forth the possibility of that. If you turn to page 7 of our memorandum it shows neighborhood analysis. Study area 99.18 acres, 135 lots. The average size is 0.73 acres. The nonconforming lots are 87 PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 223 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 percent of those lots are nonconforming. The applicant's current lot has merged with 1.61 acres. A third of the lots -- the third largest of 135 lots at 98 percentile in terms of size, 220 percent the size the average lot. On page 7. If I'm going too fast, I apologize. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, it's fine. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, it's perfect. MR. ESSEKS: If you turn to page 8 at the top, if anything our proposal would be more consistent with and have a beneficial affect on the character of the community as compared to the existing development of the property. The property currently is nonconforming to density requirement by virtue of the two- dwelling lot, the two dwellings existing on the one lot. The applicant is proposing not only to reestablish a division line between the two dwellings, but to demolish portions of the existing structures as necessary to ensure that they are fully contained within the lawful building envelopes for each parcel. There can be little doubt that from a zoning standpoint the property would be more Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 conforming as a result of the proposed variance. So if you give us the variances, we'll have lots equal to like 90 percent or 85 percent of the other lots in this area and instead of having two houses on one lot you'll have only one house on each lot. Now, the -- as you know perhaps better than I, the sections I'm going through here are the sections in Town law for proof of an area variance for about the last 10 or 15 years. I've done the character of the neighborhood. I want to go through the availability of alternatives that starts on page 8. The next factor requires the Board to consider whether the benefit that's sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than an area variance. The benefits received by the applicant is to separate the two dwellings into individual lots so that each can be separately zoned rather than leased. That benefit can only be achieved by an area variance since the subject property does not have sufficient area to meet the 40,000 square foot lot requirement. You PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 must acknowledge however that the applicant does have another option to pursue an east- west division along the boundary line approved by the area variances of 1978. If you -- there was a variance granted in 1978 and there is a picture of it in here, which I will find for you, but it shows that east-west division and the south lot is served by right-of-way. That's more nonconforming than -- that's nonconforming. We believe as a matter of law that is still alive. We don't want it, so we want to give up our merger and we want to give up the 1978 variance. On to page 8, substantiality of the variance. The bottom of the page. The requested variances here are not substantial either in the abstract or in context. Mathematically, the request to create two lots of 36,549 and 34,480 square feet where 40,000 square feet is otherwise required translate to only 9 percent and a 14 percent variance respectively on two lots, 199 and 200. These variances -- those variances when taken in context become even less substantial when the vast majority of the parcels in the study area Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 are also nonconforming in that the average size lot, 135 lots studied, is 0.73 acres, thus translating to an average nonconformity of 20 percent. Stated conversely, the average parcel is only 80 percent the size of the conforming lot. Applicant proposed variances of 9 percent and 14 percent are still well below the average variance of 20 percent. I'm saying everybody, just about everybody is 20 percent off. We're going to be 9 or 14, so we will be more conforming, less nonconforming then are 90 percent of the people that are there. I'll skip down. Four is the impacts on physical or environmental conditions is one of the conditions you have to take into account creating and undertaking a variance application. The fourth factor requires the Board to consider whether the proposed variance will have an adverse affect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood. We don't believe that there's any basis to think that especially when we have the 1978 variance that we could use and don't want to use and that by Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 accepting the variance we'll be taking down portions of all the buildings. We believe we will be improving the physical or environmental conditions on the site as opposed to what exists there. we would be (inaudible). Paragraph 5, as you know So we believe is -- condition 5 is whether the difficulty was self-created. You can argue that it's self-created, but you can also argue that we have the '78 variance which is still in effect and we're willing to give it up, but it's self-created in that it occurred at a time prior to it becoming nonconforming. So I think that the self- created issue, which as you know as well or better than I, is not one that you have to make, is not one that's a killer, but is one that you can take into account if you choose to; however, what occurred here occurred before this property was rezoned to 40. The Planning Board, and we it's the Planning Board, made the recommendation that we think is -- bottom of page 10, top of page 11 -- it is from the Planning Board and appareantly it is it seems inappropriate, but you also Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 understand the Planning Board has no variance capabilities. They have to deal with their standards as opposed to the standards applicable to you. Down at the bottom of page 10, top of page 11. The single lot, if it is a single lot, has two dwellings on it and each proposed subdivided lot will have one dwelling on it. So that's certainly an improvement. Overall density will remain unchanged, but if anything, will become more conforming to the Code requirement for one house per lot. On page 2 where the Planning Board expresses concern about the affect on ground water on yet another septic system, the fact remains that there are already two septic systems serving the overall property and the end result in this application will be the same and perhaps because of the new Health Department standards. Perhaps the septic system will be upgraded instead of as is. The same is true of the Planning Board's comment on page 2 regarding traffic. Since there are already two dwellings on the property the mere division of those dwellings PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to be two lawful building lots will not have any affect on traffic. Finally, the statements about the lot being heavily wooded is irrelevant and untrue. The lot already has multiple structures on it and any owner of the property whether one or two would have a right to clear as much of the property as desired. So I think that we're able to distinguish the negative position taken by the Planning Board and as you understand, the Planning Board has a different Code, different standards, has different powers. The Planning Board never did what this Board is charged by law to do -- page 15 of the memo -- i.e. consider whether the so- called impacts truly outweigh the substantial benefits to be achieved by the variances so as to justify their denial. That balancing test is what determines the outcome of the area variance application under Town Law 267B. I'd like to go through the exhibits with you if I may. The first one (A) is all of Nassau Point. (B) is the current survey showing two lots with the improvements on it, Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 the existing improvements. The next, (C) is the certificate of -- pre-existing certificate of Occupancy dated March 20, 2007 showing that we have a main dwelling and we have an accessory dwelling and that they're legal and it -- we're not asking for anything to be done, we're asking you to get rid of them. (D) and (E) are papers from the 1978 when a variance was given to allow the variance that we don't want that has a land-locked parcel and only accessed by an easement. Exhibit I is, I think, has two parts to it that I referenced before. It shows the size of all the lots in the area and the tables that breakdown what percentage are above and below 40,000, virtually none, and how many of them are smaller than ours. The last exhibit is Exhibit J. It shows exactly the existing conditions. Parcel 1 on the left is 35,545 square feet. Parcel 2 on the right, which is lot 200, has 34,480. It shows the existing buildings and it shows a proposed wall and a proposed frame house for which we have no intention of applying for if we get the variances that we seek from you. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 That's my application. I could try to respond to you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to this presentation, I have to say. Before I think this Board asks questions, I'd like to see if there's anyone else in the audience that would like to address this application. You have to use this mike if you will, please, that one doesn't seem to be recording. MR. RIZZO: Good afternoon. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good afternoon. MR. RIZZO: My name is Joe Rizzo, I'm an attorney in Cutchogue. My address is 28080 Main Road, Post Office Box 986, Cutchogue, 11935. I represent the Cantelmo family who abuts this property to east and the Rehm family that abuts the property to the west. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sir, could you just spell the for the record, the last name only? MR. RIZZO: Yes. E-H-M. I listened to Mr. C-A-N-T-E-L-M-O and R- Esseks present an interesting application. I kinda had the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 impression that I was looking at the wrong piece of property. May I present the Board with some photographs? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Certainly. MR. RIZZO: Thank you. These photographs were all taken by me this morning and reproduced this morning. Each photograph has a description on the upper left hand corner. These photographs were all taken at the Cantelmo residence. I'll briefly go through them although I know you can do that on your own. The purpose of this is essentially to show that the character of this particular parcel, the character of the parcel that seeks to be improved, the character of the parcel to the west, which is the Rehm parcel, and in the rear all of those parcels will suffer a dramatic change when this -- if this application is granted. What I see on every parcel, on every picture rather, is a photograph of trees. This proposed application, I can't guess how many trees will have to be torn down. It changes everything. It changes drainage. It changes the view. It changes the character, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 it is detrimental to every piece of property that is anywhere near to the property that they seek to change. Mr. Esseks talked about the benefits of the variance. I don't think he addressed at all how it affects the health, safety and welfare of the neighborhood. At first Mr. Esseks indicated when he was talking about that he's entitled to a demerger, he didn't tell us why. In 1978 there was a variance granted. The owner at this point asked for another variance, he wants to discard the original one and give us a new one. That doesn't mean that next month he can't come by and ask for another variance. If all the properties in the area are of a nonconforming size that doesn't mean that by definition the applicant shall have a property of an abnormal size. What it does is it uses the argument, well, if everybody can have one I want one too. If everybody else wants to make an application for any type of structure on their property and they're nonconforming they have to come to this Board and make the application. Just because there are properties that are not of the same size PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 234 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 doesn't mean that automatically Mr. Martz, the developer, is anxious to do this. Pardon me for one moment. I'd like to call the Board's attention if you will take a look at photograph 4. It's taken from the close to boundary line of the Cantelmo property looking west onto the small cottage that is presently on the property. The next photograph looks a little more west again barely showing the residence that's there, but a veritable forest of trees. Photograph 6 moves the view to the southwest bringing the dwelling -- it shows 375 wilhelmina Road and as does photo 7. Now, looking at those properties, the construction of a dwelling of the size that the applicant seeks to make with a swimming pool, a driveway, the house is virtually on the 15-foot side yard measurement on the east. I'm not convinced at all by any of the applicant's presentation that there will not be a change in the grade or contour of this property. If there is no change in contour this property when built will far overshadow every structure in the area. The Rehm parcel Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to the west sits down as it is and when a new structure is built, that structure will be literally 50 feet higher than the Rehm residence. The applicant claims that the relief he requests is not substantial and that there are already homes on existing parcel 1. I'm assuming that they are going to tear down the small cottage that is in existence right now and if they're not well then clearly there are more than one property, one dwelling on each lot if we're to consider the lots demerged. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They are, by the way, proposing to demolish to existing cottage. MR. RIZZO: Oh, okay good. Thank you. That's good and they should do that. This hardship has been self-created. In 1978 when they sought a variance the obtained a variance and they divided the lot in a as was described an east/west portion as opposed to north/south as they wish to do now. That was good for them in 1978 it ought to be good for them right now. There's no reason to change except to make a buck, to build a big Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 house, to build a swimming pool and to squeeze that house into a narrow piece of property. I think, with all due respect, that the applicant minimizes the impacts on the area. I've described that I think that when the property is viewed from the street there is, to the east of the Cantelmo property, there is a dwelling this French provincial dwelling that has been constructed. One of the photos in there shows the height of the retaining wall between the French provincial home and the Cantelmo property. It's literally 20 feet high. Trees, I'm told had to be removed from the boundary because of the fact that they would tip over and either land on the French provincial property or the Cantelmo property. I think that in summary the Board has an interest to the preservation of this area and it seems to me that as soon as we start taking down 10s and 20s and 30s of trees drainage will be different. The views, of course, will be different and the neighborhood will be different and I urge this Board to reject the application in its entirety. Thank you. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Anyone else in the audience who wants to address this application? MS. TESE-MILNER: Good afternoon. I'm Angela Tese-Milner. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Angela would you please spell your last name? MS. TESE-MILNER: T as in Thomas, E-S-E, dash, M-I-L-N-E-R, and my name is misspelled in the Notice. I reside directly across the street from the property. My husband and I both oppose the motion and I believe that the statistics that were presented to the Board are specious. Yes, there are so many lots on Nassau Point, a large many of those lots are not developed. Nassau Point is largely wooded and I'm sure that a lot of the lots are merged. The property in question is elevated and it, when it was purchased by this developer, he purchased it knowing that it was a merged property. The building that was on it straddled both properties. It was very clear to him that he was purchasing a merged PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 property that had two houses on it. He was, I think, fortunate to get a variance for the second house since no one had resided in either of those houses for a number of years. The houses -- the property was owned by Reverend Savisano and he lived there with his brother and his sister. They were all unmarried and the property passed through his estate. So a developer came along and decided to buy that property with the gamble that he'd be able to subdivide it and make a good fortune on it; however, Nassau Point is largely wooded and since I'm across the street, I can attest to the fact that this is part of the bird migratory route. In the summer, late summer and fall all sorts of birds come there. I have hundreds of starlings on my property. If he's allowed to subdivide he's going to take down all of those trees and he's going to disturb the bird migration. I'd also like to point out to the Board that a similar request came up to the Board, I believe it was in 2005. It was Nassau Point the Turanos and the Board declined to allow the variance. It was Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 taken up in an Article 78 proceeding and the Board's decision was upheld. So I think that if we start granting variances for every unconforming lot on Nassau Point and allowing mergers of property -- unmergers of property that are already merged and the cutting down of trees, we're going to have a Levittown here and we will destroy the bird sanctuary and the migratory route along the wetlands that are throughout Cutchogue. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Any other comments? MR. FLEMMING: Good afternoon. My name is Xavier Flemming. I own lot 202. It's an improved lot which is to the south of the applicant's property and 201 which is south of that again. There's a house on each of those lots. Currently, because of the -- let me back up a minute and just comment on Mr. Esseks' presentation. In 1978 Mr. Esseks said that a variance was granted to subdivide the property. I'm not familiar with that, I don't question it either though, but the fact PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 240 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 remains that because it remained in common ownership as of July 1, 1983 that variance would have been erased because the lots were not separated prior to '83 and it would have made it a moot point. Unless I'm wrong, that's my read on the situation. In any event, currently the two houses that I own that are south of the applicant's property, one of them is identified in Mr. Rizzo's photograph as a barely recognizable back of brown house. It is a heavily wooded area as Mr. Rizzo said and I can't see Cantelmo's house from that piece of property during the summertime. So it's -- it disappears. I can see it now because the foliage now isn't out and full blown yet, but it is a beauty and a value for all the properties there for mine and for Craig, Craig Cantelmo and his wife Annie. The lady before me suggested that this property was bought on speculation and a gamble. I agree with that. Prior to Mr. Martz buying this property previous offers were made on the property with the stipulation that a variance be granted and obviously those Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 241 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 deals fell through because the seller was not willing to have a contract based on the Zoning Board's application. In the Notice that I got it appeared that the cottage was not being demolished, you've made it clear that it is. It's my opinion that the approval of this application would result in a depreciation of aesthetic and financial value. My property, the adjoining properties, and the affect on the Cantelmo property will be devastating because they'll be putting up a 3000 square foot house, monster house, two-story house next to his rather modest house on a nicely wooded lot now. Something that I think you should consider is, you know, we have this new law that if a merger is created by death it's something that can be addressed to the Zoning Board. That's not the case here and the 1978 subdivision was not executed prior to the '83 lot merger law, the previous owners, the good monsignor and his sister, didn't act on it, they didn't subdivide it then, they could have and now again it's on the -- on your shoulders Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 242 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 to decide if this developer -- if his gamble is going to pay off or not. In closing I'd like to say that the granting of this application will result in a serious burden to the adjoining property owners and the Town of Southold has demonstrated a commitment to land preservation and that's demonstrated through the 1983 lot merger law. They want to keep things a little bit open even in an area like this where 0.75 is the norm and a ruling in favor of this application will be, in my opinion, contrary to the Town's philosophy on land preservation and development. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON WEISMA-N: You're very welcome. Thank you for your testimony. MR. ESSEKS: Two things. One is if I say there was a subdivision in '78, I didn't mean to. It was a variance granted by this Board in 1978 to allow the double-decker rear lot only having access by right-of-way. We believe that our memorandum says I believe we think that's still in full force and effect, we don't want to use it. We stand by our PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 243 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 request. I'd like to submit a letter after the fact within a period of time to be made part of the record. May I do that? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, you may. MR. ESSEKS: What period of time do you want it? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What time do you need? We have 62 days to deliberate from the time of closing the hearing. MR. ESSEKS: Within two weeks? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. MR. ESSEKS: I thank you for your consideration. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want to ask one thing. Do you -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What's the letter for? MR. ESSEKS: I want to expand, support my arguments. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You may address some of the issues that were addressed here -- MR. ESSEKS: Address the comments. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and certainly when we receive that, Mr. Rizzo, we'll make sure you get a copy and that you have time to respond to it. Would two weeks of response PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 244 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 time be adequate? MR. RIZZO: That's fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. That gives us -- UNIDENTIFIED: (NOT AT MIKE) (Inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. Yeah, it's part of the record, so -- MR. FLEMMING: I'm not an attorney. I'd like a copy as well. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'll tell you what, anyone other than the two representatives here can have access to all of that. You need to come into our office and just fill out a form and you can have anything within that file. MS. TESE-MILNER: I would like to have it mailed to my law office, would you do that? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually that might be a very expeditious way to handle that. Mr. Esseks, would you mind, when you send it to us at the same time sending it to Mr. Rizzo and to the other two parties in the audience who - MR. ESSEKS: She gave me her card. I can find him in the phone book. I don't know about the others. (Not at mike. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 245 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you write that name and address down where you would like that letter sent and then -- MR. ESSEKS: (Inaudible). CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you can also come into the office, if you're local. MR. FLEMMING: We're all in the application mailing addresses, the affected property owners. Perhaps it would be a good idea to mail it to everyone? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I don't believe that that is necessarily an appropriate -- anyone can come in and FOIL and application. MR. FLEMMING: I'd be happy to (inaudible). (Not at mike.) CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But as a courtesy since you are all here and gave testimony just simply in fairness to all these different parties, I think we can provide you with -- Mr. Esseks is willing to provide you with that information. So let's look at the timeframe. We will receive a letter from Mr. Esseks by -- want to do two weeks from today? Yeah, within two weeks from tomorrow. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 246 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 you. well, let's look at the calendar and see what that date is so we have that in the record. Two weeks from tomorrow is going to be Friday, May 7. Okay, on or before. Any replies, so any replies to this letter must be received in the Zoning Board office by Friday, May 21st, that's another two weeks after. The May regular meeting is the 20tn. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think we need to close the hearing after that, just in case to because we need time to evaluate this. So -- you know, I'm just mentioning that to CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, why don't we do this then, we can, rather than adjourning to another date we can just leave this open and close it on May 20~n, but we won't be receiving the letters necessarily until May 21st __ MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It doesn't make any difference because all we're doing is reducing oral testimonies 'til that time, just as a matter of fact, we would be closing it. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so what we'll do is we'll close it on the 20tn simply PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 247 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 so that the clock starts, we have 62 days to adjudicate this matter and the clock will start from the date that we close the hearing, which means that we will then have 62 days after the 20tn -- MR. ESSEKS: You've recorded this, have you not? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh yes. It's tape recorded. MR. ESSEKS: And is that available? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, as soon as we get the transcript. That takes about, usually -- the tapes get sent out, the transcript takes usually about two weeks, 10 days to two weeks. MR. ESSEKS: and listen to it, If somebody wanted to come is that available too? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, certainly. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Listen to it? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can't -- I mean you would have to -- we send out -- we have two tapes. One that we keep in the office, one that we send -- BOARD SECRETARY: We only have one today. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, today we only PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 have one tape. So that tape is going to be sent out and normally we have two tapes, but we have all this rigamarole with a machine that didn't cooperate, so we only have one this time. You can listen to it, but it would have to be when it's returned to our office and, therefore, it won't be really available. We'll send it out tomorrow for transcription. MR. ESSEKS: It'll be back in a couple of weeks? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It will be back in two to three weeks, which is the normal time and certainly we can make that copy of that available to you and anyone else who wants it. If you just want to review what's in the record. MR. ESSEKS: Well, see if I'm going to comment about the comments made, I won't have -- I won't be able to listen to them until my two weeks are gone. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: That's true, according to this timeframe. MR. ESSEKS: Would you give me one week past when you get it back, because one of my partners will come down and listen to the tape PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 and finish the brief. That's going to push every thing through then farther into the future so we have to evaluate those dates. MEMBER DINIZIO: Maybe we'll have the transcript in 10 days? CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No. They take longer usually. BOARD SECRETARY: Between two and three weeks. MR. ESSEKS: I want to respond to -- CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can ask them to expedite this hearing -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but that's not (inaudible), you don't want that. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- but they're going to do what they're going to do. We send it out to a (inaudible). MR. ESSEKS: Why don't you move it out a week or so because if these people have their -- they made their statements, I don't take shorthand, I want to be able to respond accurately to what they said. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I understand. MR. ESSEKS: They're entitled to that, you're entitled to that, I'm entitled to that. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25O ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, given the nature of the circumstances here, I think perhaps an alternative would be to simply adjourn this to June. Let everybody respond, let everybody have plenty of time. I know this is an important decision. We might have to actually make it July, I don't know if we can calendar it in June. I don't want to delay it, but neither do I want to rush it. I want people to have -- be very comfortable with the timeframe so that you can all respond to whatever you wish to respond to. So rather than -- I can't guarantee when those transcripts are going to be available. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, there's another issue and that is we have transcript after it comes CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: to review the in. We will have to look at all of the responses as well. It may generate some questions on our part. If we adjourn to July, that gives us an opportunity to reconvene and then to ask questions of those of you who have submitted additional material. So as much as I'd like to close it, frankly, subject to receipt of additional Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 information, it seems as though it may be in the best interest if we just simply adjourn to July and receive all testimony. Each of you will continue to get copies of whatever the other is -- we're not going to change that. We can change the date by which time you'll respond, that's all. So let's just change the date. Let's adjourn to July 29th at 2:00. Okay and this will be subject to receipt of additional written testimony responsive to today's hearing from all interested parties. MR. ESSEKS: And that's the limitation is it not? The responses, written responses. CHAIRPERSON WEISM_Z~N: Written, just written and Mr. Esseks you will still send when you have your response ready, you will send that letter out to those here who have requested it in addition to our office. MR. ESSEKS: Fine. CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then the rest of you will have an opportunity to get your reply in to us and to Mr. Esseks, as a courtesy also, prior to the next hearing. So we'll all be on the same page, everybody will have the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 252 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information. Okay. So I'll make a motion to adjourn this hearing to July 29tn at 2 p.m. subject to receipt of additional testimony, written testimony. MR. ESSEKS: Thank you. MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 253 ZBA Town of Southold - April 22, 2010 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was prepared using four-track electronic transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the Hearings. Signature Denise Gasowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: May 5, 2010 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355