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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
March 25, 2010
10:12 a.m.
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Chairperson/Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member - (start to 2:20 p.m.)
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney -
(Start to 2:33 p.m.)
VICKI TOTH - ZBA Secretary
BOARD OF APPE t'
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25,
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Joseph and Rita DeNicolo #6355
Jay Mandelbaum #6359
Nicolas deCroisset #6354
Julien and Claudia Ramone #6357
Ryan and Jennifer Stork #6358
Stein Family Residence Trust #6360
Lewis Edson #6353
Linda Hill #6364
Peter and Stephanie Cosola #6365
108-109,
2
2010
Page:
3-39
196-217
40-71
72-80
81-83
84-107
110-110
111-159
160-182
183-195
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6355 - Joseph and Rita DeNicolo
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for a Variance from Code Section
280-116(B), based on an application for
building permit and the Building Inspector's
October 5, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed demolition, additions and
alterations to a single-family dwelling, 1)
less than the code required bulkhead setback
of 75 feet, at 3475 Wells, Ave., Southold, NY.
CTM#: 70-4-6."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we have an
application before us to demolish a dwelling
and to do a new dwelling with the
nonconforming setback of 63 feet from bluff
when the Code requires 75 feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Bulkhead.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, bulkhead,
sorry. Correct 63 feet?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 64.8.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Notice says 63
feet. Here we go, the Notice of Disapproval
says 63 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The survey shows 64
feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the survey
shows 64 --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Point-8.
MR. HERRMANN: It's probably the deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 63 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That deck is a
cantilever, right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Uh-huh. Yes, it
shows it. It needs to be to the high water
mark.
Rob, could you just state your name for
the record and then we have a question --
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- just to start
with on the survey.
MR. HERRMANN: Yes. Rob Herrmann of En
Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road, Southampton
for the applicants.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you approach
for a moment?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERRMANN: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just to clarify
this. What we have here is one corner of the
addition that's proposed.
MR. HERRMANN: This is existing. This is
also existing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Existing and that's
what you're proposing to reconstruct.
MR. HERRMANN: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is noted as
64.8, but (inaudible) from here.
MR. HERRMAi~N: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: We do need I think is
the 75-foot mark to -- (inaudible) have that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, from here to
the bulkhead is the dimension that we need, 75
feet would be back here.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, right. I would
like to see that (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You want to see
that noted across here where the actual code-
conforming setback would be?
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. HERRMANN: Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: George, you're
assigned this, do you want to begin with
questions?
MEMBER HORNING: I'd like to have him
present the applicant's situation --
MR. HERRMANN: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Okay.
MR. HERRMANN: This is another 280-116
application on a renovation project where,
again, if this were a natural shoreline with
wetlands we would not be before you, but
because this is a bulkheaded shoreline we
require relief for the work that is proposed
because it is less than 75 feet from the
bulkhead.
What is actually before you is the in-
place reconstruction of the most seaward,
approximately 20x20, section of this dwelling.
The original plan was designed here to
maintain this section of the house as it
exists with only superficial renovations that
would have included siding, shingling, etc.
The original plan that went through all of the
involved regulatory agencies was to demolish
the existing one-story dwelling down to its
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
existing foundation, to reuse that foundation
to build the exact same structure above it and
then with additions to the structure all of
which would be going out to the side and/or
toward the road more than 75 feet from the
bulkhead and also in conformance with all of
the other zoning requirements that would
apply.
That plan was approved by the Town
Trustees. It was issued a permit from the
Suffolk County Health Department and the
project was exempted from the State Tidal
Wetlands regulations by the DEC through
issuance of a Tidal Wetlands letter of non-
jurisdiction. That again as the project stood
was ripe (sic) for issuance for a building
permit.
What happened when the applicants went
through all of that and hoped that they were
done, they began meeting with a number of
builders, engineers, etc., and got into more
specific talks with the architect and they
realized that as part of that plan this 20x20
waterfront section would have been 2 feet, set
2 feet below the floor of the rest of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
house, as we had originally designed it.
There is a certain amount of headroom in the
basement, but it's being lost to ductwork for
the new HVAC system and there is also a desire
to expand the headroom in the basement, which
is only around 7-plus feet now and that was
why the rest of the house was being moved up 2
feet.
So the finished product here would have
been a ~keeping room" adjacent to the kitchen
essentially that
than the kitchen.
just reconstruct
would have been 2 feet lower
So the decision was made to
this section. This was a
room that was a master bedroom that was being,
as I mentioned, transitioned into a ~keeping
room" adjacent to the kitchen. So this is an
important family room to the applicants and so
the decision was made to go ahead and simply
reconstruct this section of the house in the
exact same footprint with the exact same
dimensions without any outward expansion or
upward expansion, any further encroachment on
the bulkhead, nothing. So what's -- what
we're really asking for here is to maintain
the existing condition as it relates to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
portion of the house that is within that
required 75-foot setback from the bulkhead.
What we have argued in our application is
that this Board granting the relief necessary
to reconstruct this section of house because
of the fact that it's really not going to
change anything, other than the raising of
this section of house by 2 feet, that work
will not cause an undesirable change in the
character of the neighborhood or the community
or even really to the property because there's
no increase in the nonconformity of the
setback to the bulkhead.
The amount of relief requested is 12 feet
from that 75-foot bulkhead setback and so,
again, really the concern here would be would
this have negative impact on the environment
as it relates to the bulkhead and the presence
of the adjacent creek. Once this plan was
changed, we went back to the Town Trustees
they issued a modified wetlands permit to
allow the DeNicolos to do this and their
approval was conditioned in part on several
mitigation measures that are incorporated into
the project which includes the expansion of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
existing non-turf buffer behind the bulkhead
to 15 feet, the installation, of course, of a
drainage system of leaders, gutters, and
drywells, and also an upgraded sanitary system
that would be moved out of Chapter 275
jurisdiction.
with respect to that sanitary system,
although it's not necessarily something this
Board would perhaps focus on, but you did
receive a letter from the adjacent landowner
James Rich who had identified an error in the
site plan indicating that his property was
serviced by public water and he informed both
you, as a Board, and the Building Department,
and us, that he is not in fact serviced by
public water, but by a private drinking water
well. As it turns out, Mr. Rich had
previously contacted Nathan Corwin had the
surveyor out to the property, showed him where
the location of the well is, that is now
located on an updated site plan that I handed
to you at the beginning of the hearing and it
shows that the sanitary system has been moved
to the opposite side of the property so that
it now meets the Health Department required
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
150-foot setback from Mr. Rich's well. We
were able to obtain a modified Suffolk County
Health Department approval for this relocated
system last week and so I just wanted the
Board to be aware that with respect to that
letter you received from Mr. Rich that
situation has now been addressed and resolved
to the satisfaction of the Health Department.
Reasonably straightforward application
and again with respect to environmental
standards this is again an application, but
for the presence of this bulkhead, would not
in fact be before you because it meets all
other zoning standards applicable.
If you have any questions, I'm happy to
answer them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: George do you want
to start or do you want me to?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, just on the survey
again, as we were talking, before your
presentation. I feel that the 75-foot mark
from the bulkhead should be shown on the
survey.
MR. HERRMANN:
MEMBER HORNING:
That's not a problem.
Also, can you clarify
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
then on the 20x20 existing structure what kind
of foundation there is there? Is it on a
slab?
MR. HERRMANN: Let me see if I can see
the photo. You should have some photos in
your file. Let me see if I can find those for
you.
MEMBER HORNING: I saw this site
yesterday and I'm -- it looked like it's on a
slab.
MR. HERRMANN: It may be, George, I'm not
sure. That's why I was hoping the file had a
picture that might show that.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, the point being
you're taking this portion down to grade
level; is that right?
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: Are you leaving the
slab?
MR. HERRMANN: There will be a properly
poured foundation to raise this section up the
2 feet that is necessary to meet with the
elevation of the rest of the house.
MEMBER HORNING: Are you anticipating any
excavation? That's the question. For this
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
section, are you going to take out the
existing slab?
MR. HERRMANN: I would think that they
would make whatever modifications to that
foundation are necessary to establish the
poured foundation to go with the rest of the
house, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just follow
up on the foundation. We don't have a
foundation plan and much of what you're
proposing is dependent upon, as you suggested,
reuse of the existing foundation to
reconstruct, rebuild a house that's
considerably larger than what's there now.
MR. HERRMANN: Right, but only with --
that's with respect to the portion of the
house that is not within 75 feet from the
bulkhead. In other words, if they were to
leave -- the initial premise here was if we
left this section of dwelling alone and built,
rebuilt and expanded on the roadside of it and
kept the 2-foot drop down, we would not need
relief.
So I understand what you're saying that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that brings the entire project into your
purview, but again you're talking about
maintaining really an existing condition on
the waterside of the house. This is a unique
section of the house that protrudes towards
the water.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's correct,
however, even though you are proposing
additions in conforming locations, all right
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the lot is
nonconforming and the house is nonconforming.
So when you proceed to do a teardown and
rebuild, our task as a Board is to attempt to
reduce the number of nonconformities
(inaudible) every application.
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: So my question to
you is since you have to dig a foundation
under that existing seaward section, why
should you not be making an effort to bring
that setback into greater conformity with the
Code?
MR. HERRMANN: Because in this case
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you're working with a pre-existing
nonconforming location of this house with
respect only to the bulkhead.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. HERRMANN: So again, if there were no
bulkhead, if this was actually a wetland
shoreline that I would think you would be more
interested in than a bulkheaded shoreline, you
would not even have purview over this
application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: No, I know it meets
the rear yard setbacks.
MR. HERRMAI~N: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But there is a
bulkhead.
MR. HERRMANN: So really the only issue -
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whether we like it
or not, it's there.
MR. HERRM3LNN: The only issue that's at
hand really, so far as I can tell, would be if
this Board felt and I understand this is a
strange role because it's a zoning board not
an environmental board, but is with respect to
the setback to the bulkhead and the wetlands
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
and we have already been issued a wetlands
permit by the Town Trustees for the project.
The project has been deemed consistent
pursuant to the LWRP and so really
environmental standards have been satisfied.
So for here to simply raise within the
same dimensions with no outward, seaward, or
upward expansion, for the applicant to at that
point go back and redesign the entire project
to try to move this structure closer to the
road and eliminate what is in effect an
important component of the house to them,
which is this room that sits out on the water
side, is not even something that they would
consider doing. I mean their alternative
would be to simply leave the thing where it is
at the setback and get a building permit to do
it that way, but that doesn't really make any
sense to me from any perspective.
So really what you're asking is can we
eliminate any nonconformity and the only way
we would be able to eliminate the
nonconformity would be to completely eliminate
the section of the house that we're asking
relief for, which would defeat the purpose of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the need for relief in the first place or to
take the entire structure and move it 12 feet
closer to the road.
MEMBER HORNING: My question. Sir, you
are taking the entire structure down and
you're not leaving the concrete slab. You're
making a brand-new foundation and everything,
so you're essentially making a brand-new house
right there.
MR. HERRMANN: But the question would be
for you to ask that the entire structure be
moved 12 feet farther from this bulkhead and
closer to the road that would set this house
behind the adjacent structures, to what end
would you be asking that?
MEMBER HORNING: Well, to the extent that
we have to, that's our purpose in fact is to
try and see if we can lessen the -- make the
least amount of variance possible.
MR. HERRMANN: Well sure, I understand
that, but there has to be some nexus between
your request and some mitigation that you're
looking for.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, here would be one
if you were leaving the concrete slab and you
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
were building, as you say,
in place and raised.
MR. HERRMANN: That's
to be reconstructed
correct.
MEMBER HORNING: If you had a slab there
in my mind it's a different nature. You're
rebuilding on the slab, but if you're ripping
out that slab and you're making a brand-new
foundation of some kind, at what depth we
don't know, then any kind of excavation work
like that has a greater impact in the
immediate area than --
MR. HERRMANN: An impact on what?
MEMBER HORNING: The land towards the
bulkhead.
MR. HERR_MANN: So the area that is
already staged for construction, which is a
existing cleared, maintained lawn, would be
disturbed more than if you weren't doing that
and the question is, so what? What are you
disturbing? Is there something in your mind
that you would associate with that disturbance
that would negatively impact the wetlands or
the creek?
MEMBER HORNING: There's a possibility of
that, yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HERRM3UX!N: What would it be?
MR.
MEMBER HORNING: I can't state
definitively what that is right now, but this
is why we're here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm going to make a
statement, okay, and that is, Rob, this is the
third hearing that you used this cavalier
attitude, in my particular opinion and only my
particular opinion, "If only that you didn't
have this jurisdiction" or "If only you did
have this jurisdiction". We have the
jurisdiction, okay. It depends upon which
Board you went to first.
Okay, so let's cut that situation out
cause every time you say that you turn me off.
MR. HERRMANN: Well, Jerry, with all due
respect, it's not a cavalier attitude --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It is a cavalier
statement.
MR. HERRMANN: -- it is -- well, but I
have made the argument before and I will not
back off the argument that what is in the Town
Code right now is a situation where if you had
the same exact project next door, whether it
was a slab, a foundation, a reconstruction,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
whatever, the exact same owner, the exact same
project, but it was a non-bulkheaded shoreline
but there were wetlands that the Town would
actually be interested in making sure they
preserve and protect, they would not need to
come to this Board and there has to be some
content in why we come to a Board and ask for
relief. It is not a comment that's made with
any disrespect, not even remotely, to you or
this Board. It is a fundamental flaw with the
Code. I have argued it over and over and over
again. There is a higher standard imposed on
somebody because they have a bulkhead than
there is on somebody who has a natural
shoreline with wetland. That, to me, seems
backwards. If you wanted to impose more
protection, it would be on the property that
had the natural wetlands not on a bulkhead.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Rob --
MR. HER~: That's the extent of the
attitude. It isn't an attitude toward you at
all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Look, the one thing
that's clear in this is that as the Code is
now written, (inaudible) or not, we have the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
jurisdiction.
MR. HERRMANN: I understand that and I
respect it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The place to argue
that, and I'm not suggesting that it's not
appropriate, would be before the Town Board.
MR. HERRMAI~N: I have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They write the
Code.
MR. HERRMANN: I have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And if there's a
problem with it, we're sure that's where it
needs to go.
MR. HERRM3LNN: I have addressed it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Our task is to deal
with the law as it's handed to us.
MR. HERRMANN: I absolutely respect --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We don't write
legislation from this bench here.
MR. HERRMANN: I absolutely respect that
and I understand that and that's why I'm
trying to focus and you're mistaking --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I'm not and I'm
going to tell you why I'm not mistaking it,
okay. This is a real clear cut situation. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
just observed two bulkhead blowouts during
this recent storm this weekend that took out
both of the neighbors' properties. Okay, all
right they took a substantial amount of fill
out of the neighbors' property because there
were no returns on these bulkheads.
MR. HERRMANN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And so interestingly
enough there was more beach in front of that
bulkhead that went out than there was at this
beach cause I've been to this house three
times, okay, and observed the waterfront and
each time I went there, and this is not
degrading the property -- it's a beautiful,
beautiful spot on the open bay, okay -- the
tide has been up primarily to the bulkhead
each time. I didn't go there at a specific,
just said I'm going to go there three times.
It happens to be a magnificent spot, okay,
there's no question of that, but please don't
tell me, okay, that things like this can't
happen. They can happen.
MR. HERRMANN: No, they can happen.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that is the
reason why I suspect my colleagues are asking
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
these questions and that is the reason why I
am taking that approach based upon that. Ail
right. It's going to cost thousands and
thousands of dollars to replace the bulkhead
that went out in front of this and the
potential loss of the bulkheads and the amount
of soil content that went back out into the
bay.
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, in this
particular situation.
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Different area, still
on the open bay in Mattituck, okay, and the
one in particular, and that's the concern I
have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's --
MEMBER HORNING: Can I just say one other
thing? I do not think it's an extraordinary
request to try and determine whether there's
going to be a rebuild on an existing slab or a
brand-new foundation there.
MR. HERRMANN: Oh, I don't think it's an
extraordinary request.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, no. It is
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
going to be a new foundation.
MR. HERRM3~NN: Yeah, it's going to be a
new foundation.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're going to
raise it by 2 feet.
MR. HERRMANN: That's right and so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And there will be
excavation and there will be an --
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What about the
existing foundation, you said you wanted to
utilize that? Have you any engineer's reports
or any information that the --
MR. HERRMANN: No. That the -- those are
investigations that the architect has done and
that is the plan is to reuse that foundation.
So, again, that is what locks us into the
position of trying to maintain this section of
the dwelling and so my --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, at the very
least then you probably need a written
explanation, since we have no foundation plan
to look at, of what portions of the foundation
are structurally sound, what parts will have
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
to be excavated and redone or done new and so
on because if part of the argument is the
footprint that's there now and reusing the
foundation, we need to see that that is indeed
what's going to happen.
MR. HERRMANN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What I do
appreciate is that you indicated the teardown.
MR. HERRMANN: Yeah. Well and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: At least we know
I don't know how many times we've seen
that.
MR. HERRMANN: And that's what it is and
that's what it is and again, don't misconstrue
my response to George. My response to George
is not to say, I don't think your request is
relevant, my response is to say that at the
end of the day this is a developed site with
an existing house surrounded by lawn. So
whether it were a slab or whether it were a
foundation or whatever it is, what I'm saying
with respect to the impact at issue, which is
the impact on the wetlands, my position as an
environmental professional is there is no
difference because what is relevant to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
wetland is what activity might physically
impact it or lead to some impact, lead to some
indirect impact such as the location of the
sanitary system or something like that.
What Jerry is saying I think is actually
a little bit more straightforward to the
extent of saying, well, if you really can
reuse what you have, we might be more likely
to let you stay there, but if you have to kind
of start from scratch anyway, then we would
look to move you farther from the bulkhead and
those are --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why I want
the foundation plans.
MR. HERRNL~2~N: That's right, but they're
two different issues. One actually relates to
an impact and the other relates more to really
a philosophical approach of trying to reduce
the variance necessary.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: That is what this
Board has jurisdiction over.
MR. HERRMAAFN: So I understand that, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We do not, as you
said rightly so, particularly focus on
environmental impact. It's certainly a part
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
of our decision and we do examine these
things, but this Board is primarily here to
grant relief from bulk schedule from setbacks.
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: SO if we have
before us a house that is being totally
demolished and a new house being built, we
have to ask the question as to whether or not
the degree of nonconformity can be reduced.
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And that's what
we're exploring here and the foundation plan
and the analysis by a licensed professional
will help us very much in that regard.
MR. HERRMANN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
board members have --
Let us see if other
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me just say that
is the sincere difference between the two
Boards, okay. Between what, in my opinion,
okay, what the Trustees look at and what we
look at and the different type of criteria
that we have to look at in granting this
application.
MR. HERRMANN: And Jerry, I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
disagree with you, which actually in your
saying that underscores the premise of my
objection to the Code because right now if we
were asking you for relief from a rear yard
setback, I wouldn't even attempt to have any
attitude that you might construe as cavalier,
but unless you disagree that the 75-foot
bulkhead setback is an environmental standard
because it is -- it was set in place before
this town had a proper wetlands law -- what
you are being asked today is to grant relief
from an environmental standard. It's not a
bulk schedule standard. It's not a yard
setback, it's not a yard requirement, it's
none of the issues that you as a traditional
Zoning Board would approach.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's true.
MR. HERRMANN: So that's all I'm saying
and that's where my argument becomes limited
at. When you say, can you reduce the
nonconformity, my question is we're reducing
the nonconformity with respect to the creek,
with respect to a bulkhead, and Jerry is
raising a good point. Well, what if the
bulkhead disappeared? He's relating it more
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
to a bluff situation, but I just -- I continue
to feel how I feel about the substance of
what's in the Code, but again that has nothing
to do with my position to your Board or your
jurisdiction.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to see if
any other board members have questions so we
can move this along.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
make a comment, yeah.
Yeah. I'd like to
Looking at the survey
that you just presented to us, it says here,
~existing one-story frame house to be
reconstructed as a two-story house over
existing foundation." So to me that would
mean that the existing basement with the -- it
looks like its poured concrete walls.
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
those poured concrete walls
heightened by 2 feet --
That will remain --
-- and then on top of
they would be
MR. HERRMANN:
that is correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
They would be heightened,
-- probably all
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
around.
MR. HERRMANN: That is correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: To accomplish your --
MR. HERRMANN: Right and then the new
foundation for the additions would meet that
height.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- new floor level.
I'm sorry, what?
MR. HERRM3LNN: And the foundation for the
additions would meet that height.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh. Right, sure. Ail
right, so there may not be excavation around
the footings or in the backyard to accomplish
that increase in height on the existing
foundation?
MR. HERRM3~X/N: That's correct, but we're
-- I think the question was with respect to
the section of the house that's closest to the
water. I just don't have an answer to your
question.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what we need
to get.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, well, so the
case may be where that part of the foundation
will be removed and replaced.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERP_MA/QI~: I think that's what is
being asked.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, okay. And
you're going to supply us with foundation
plans.
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it's interesting
discussion we just had, but in all honesty our
Board deals with nonconformities day in and
day out and certainly the Building Inspector,
you know, denied you a permit based on
something in the Code and, you know, you have
the option to come before us --
MR. HERRMANN: That's right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- which you're doing.
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think the argument
that the law is wrong, you're in the wrong
place to argue that argument, and I have come
to a realization that if we're going to have
nonconforming structures and these structures
are going to remain such and our Code is going
to read the way it does, which means you can't
expand that, when you tear it down you no
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
longer have that. You no longer have the
setback. You no longer have the opportunity
to do anything other than make that house more
conforming.
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Beyond that, we can
certainly grant a variance based on a hardship
that you may have on that. To my mind a
hardship because you're on a bulkhead,
bulkheaded lot, you've protected your lot.
You know, it's not an argument. The Code is
clear it's 75 feet. I don't -- I don't
concern myself how the Town came to that
decision only that that is the decision that
they continue to support. So I'm going to
lead honestly a little bit more conversation
on what the hardship is for you to not just
leave that building, which you are perfectly
entitled to have, in its place at 64-point-
whatever feet, 2 feet lower than what you
propose to build the house at, which is all
I'm assuming been approved by the Trustees,
DEC and everybody else.
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm going to need an
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
argument, you know, that says that you can't
put a couple of steps in that room and make it
MR. HERRMANN: You could.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, but why are we
having this discussion?
MR. HERRMANN: But the -- because it's a
balance of what the negative impact is on the
character of the neighborhood, the community,
adjacent property, public health and welfare,
the standards that are in the zoning code do
not say the Zoning Board is required by law to
make every pre-existing nonconforming project
conforming. The Code tells you that you have
to balance these impacts relative to certain
standards and I believe that we've clearly met
those standards in this application and at the
end of the day the setback will not be
changed, neither the scope, the height, the
size, any part of this structure that is the
nonconforming portion of the structure will be
changed. It will be 2 feet higher.
So if your Board can demonstrate that
that same structure 2 feet higher is going to
have a negative impact on the community or the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
character of the neighborhood, etc., then you
would be charged with denying our variance
request, but we're here because we think it's
a reasonable request.
And, again, just for the record I did not
come in here nor did I include in my
application or my presentation a complaint
about the law. Jerry made a comment which I
construed as really a personal comment and so
I was explaining back to him, on a personal
level, where perhaps my frustration with the
need for this application comes from and
that's all it was. I'm not here trying to
tell you that you should make a decision
because the law is wrong.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If I
argument though, Rob, it's
have
us.
could follow your
that if you didn't
a bulkhead then you wouldn't be before
MR. HERRMANN: Well, that's true.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, then -- then
you're complaining about
MR. HERRM3kN-N: Well,
complaint, it's a point to
Leslie identified before.
the law.
it's not a
say -- it's what
I'm trying to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
clarify that we are not here for a traditional
zoning bulk schedule type relief. We're here
for an environmental relief. Now you may
your opinion may be that's not relevant
because everything that's in the Code we have
to conform to, but for me there is a
difference because you have a rear yard
setback and you have a bulkhead setback. A
rear yard setback applies to every property in
this zone in the whole town. The bulkhead
setback doesn't, it only applies to those
properties within the zone or within this
community that have a bulkhead. So it
continues to seem strange to me that if
somebody lived next door without a bulkhead
they could go forward with this project as
we've proposed it without being asked to move
the house closer to the road.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, that's --
MR. HERRMANN: Somebody at some point has
got to acknowledge that that's a (inaudible)
law.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we've gotta
move
MEMBER DINIZIO: Rob, there are -- I mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
your Notice of Disapproval doesn't even
mention Walz.
MR. HERRMANN: Doesn't mention what?
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Walz decision. Now
that's because in our Code it says that if you
happen to live on the water you build on the
landward side.
MR. HERRMAIqN: Walz is not (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I think the Town has
out, quite honestly.
Hold on there, hold on.
thoroughly thought this
MR. HERRMANN: Oh, they have --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Like I said, you have an
existing nonconformity there and, you know,
I'm all for you leaving that, okay, I don't
think that that causes any more, but the
moment that you tear that down, in my opinion,
that makes you have the obligation to make
yourself more conforming.
MR. HERRMANN: Yeah, see we just disagree
on that. To me the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to -- I want
to --
MR. HERRMANN: -- obligation exists if
there's a reason to change it, not just --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we've had a
lot of discussion about interpretations of
law.
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I want to discuss,
at this point, because we're taking a good
deal of time to do this, the merits of this
application, which I think have been heard,
questions have been asked. I'm going to ask
if there's anyone in the audience who'd like
to speak in favor or in opposition to this
application to come forward, please.
Okay. All right, hearing no further
comments on this application, I'm going to
make a motion that we close this hearing
subject to receipt of a foundation plan and/or
letter from a licensed architect or engineer
regarding the plans for full excavation of the
proposed new construction.
MR. HERRMANN: Well, do you want to close
the hearing or do you want to adjourn it until
I can provide the information and perhaps
respond with some more specific requests as to
the hardship or the impacts or --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
Board.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I think we should --
I think we should give Rob the opportunity to
explain the information he's going to get to
us, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, then I
will make a different motion.
with that?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
setback.
Do you agree
Yeah, we also need the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine. Yeah, we do
need additional information on the survey as
we discussed earlier, the 75-foot Code
conforming setback from the bulkhead --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: To the deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and the
dimension to the proposed scratched in area to
the --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, of the deck to
the bulkhead, please. So updated survey
information, foundation plan. Why don't we do
this then, let's adjourn this hearing to June?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sounds good.
MR. HERRMANN: TO June?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean May, we can
do it in May. We can do it in May, right.
We're going to have some carryovers, that's
all right. We can't do it
stuffed in April for sure.
with everyone?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
1:307
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's
in April, we're
Is that acceptable
The afternoon, 1:00-
adjourn it to
-- what is the date in May of the public
hearings? I'll tell you exactly what the date
and time will be. May, yes, it's May 20tn and
we'll schedule that for 1:00.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second. 1 or 1:307
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6359 - Jay Mandelbaum
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for Variance from Code Section
280-13 and 280-105(A), based on an application
for building permit to build a tennis court on
a vacant lot, and the Building Inspector's
October 2, 2009, Amended February 25, 2010
Notice of Disapproval stating that the use of
a tennis court is not permitted on a vacant
lot (without a principal dwelling) and the
tennis court fence will exceed the code limit
of 4 feet in height. Location of Property:
920 Kimberly Lane, (North Balrview Rd. &
Roxanne Rd.) Southold, NY; CTM #70-13-20.15.
(Paradise by the Bay subdivision.)"
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, state your
name for the record.
MR. ARNOFF: Good morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good morning.
MR. ARNOFF: My name is Harvey ARnoff.
It's nice to be back before this Board. It's
been a while since I've been here, as Mr.
Goehringer would attest and Mr. Dinizio.
Let me start by saying, I was here
through the last application or the bulk of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
it, and the thing that was hit upon, I think,
indirectly by Mr. Dinizio is your function,
and I'm not here to lecture you, is a
discretionary one from day one. People come
here thinking they have an absolute right to
the relief being sought and it's the Board's
discretion as to whether to grant the relief.
Now, having said that, we're asking for
what amounts to substantial relief here. I am
aware of the constraints of the Code; however,
my clients are in a rather unique position.
They own, and just so you know what they own
in the Town of Southold, they own the parcel
of property directly across the street on
which their principal dwelling is. They own
both lots on either side, I think it's -- I
just want to show Kimberly coming in --
Kimberly Lane. They also own another house,
just so that you know, on North Bayview around
the corner from theirs. This is part of an
overall plan by them, they have three young
children and it is their intention eventually
to have each one of these children having a
house on a lot. That's their long term goal.
It's pretty salutary considering today's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
world and that's what they're setting out to
do, but they would like to put a tennis court
up and they would like to do it so that it is
at the least possibly intrusive upon neighbors
and in conformity with the neighborhood.
To that extent, there was a comment,
there was a letter written which your staff
was kind enough to forward to me by Mr. and
Mrs. Heffner and they were concerned with a
"park-like setting". That's what my clients
want to do. They're not looking for lighting.
They're not looking for -- there's not going
to be any night-time tennis. This isn't going
to be one of those tennis academy type things.
This is going to be a court which can be used
by them and I'm certain by guests and members
of the community as well. It's not going to
be a community tennis court, however.
Now, there is no landscaping plan, which
again I understand the Heffner's concern, but
that's premature at this point. If the Board
wishes one, we can come before it with one,
subsequently, but under the circumstances we
certainly will do everything within our power
to shield the fence and the court from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
surrounding properties, bearing in mind that
two of the surrounding properties are ours,
the one across the street, both of the
properties across the street.
Now, there is some history by this Board
in granting this type of a variance, not
necessarily for a tennis court, but there is
one for a garage in East Marion, but I think
what you have to look at is there's a
difference here. In that case, I believe the
Board requested and it was ultimately agreed
upon that the applicant would merge the two
lots that were across the street because it
was a private road and they could merge the
lots in order to make it a sort of a -- to
stretch the law to make it an accessory use.
That was fine and under normal circumstances
that would be fine here were it not for the
fact that the roads are public highways, they
have been dedicated to the Town. I didn't
know that until last night when I called the
Highway Department and I confirmed they're
Town-maintained roads. So that presents
somewhat of an obstacle.
Now, there are many ways we can deal with
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
this. The Mandelbaums could have come to the
Building Department with an application for a
building permit for a house and a tennis
court. It would have been given, no question,
meeting all the zoning requirements and they
could have undertaken to build a tennis court
first and not started the house for a number
of years and just let it sit there. There's
nothing in our Code, by the way, to prevent
that. That's an anomaly in the Code. They're
not doing that. They're not here under any
subterfuge. They're here before this Board
because they really want to put the court up
and eventually they're going to put a house
up.
Now, how do we as members
community, and I'm a member of
of the
the community
as all of you are, protect us from abuses?
Well, I have a solution. The solution, I
think, is rather simple one. We will enter
into a covenant with the Town as follows.
That if we do not build a home within a
specific period of time, the tennis court will
be removed, period, be it 10 years, be it 15
years, be it -- and give the people a period
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
of time so that they can really figure this
out. We will agree in that covenant that the
property cannot be transferred with the tennis
court intact so that someone else can't -- so
that a stranger can't come along, a member
outside of the community, and own a tennis
court here. We don't want to do that. That
is not what we want to do and we will -- we
will abide by those type of restrictions which
under normal circumstances would be Draconian,
but in this case make sense.
I want to put common sense to a rather
simple application. There is nothing
complicated about this application. It's a
very simple one. It's something that my
clients who want to be good neighbors want to
do and they want to do it in the right way.
I really don't have much more to offer
and I'd be glad to answer any questions Mr.
Horning or any other member of the Board might
wish to ask.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually, I'd like
you to, if you would please, Mr. Arnoff,
approach and just mark on the --
MR. ARNOFF: I think if I use my copy --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you're --
is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ARNOFF: Okay, it may help me --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have highlighted
the subject property where the tennis court
is, but I'd like to see what other properties
where your clients' primary house
Yes, I notice that there's the same sort
of split rail fence on there with the kind of
wooded grassy area. Is that their home?
MR. ARNOFF: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, that's the
other one.
MR. AB/qOFF: This is a vacant lot. These
are both vacant lots.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, there's a house
next to it then down there. Okay.
MR. ARNOFF: These two lots are vacant.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup, okay. No
boundary --
MR. ARNOFF: It's here, this property, or
this property. I really, without looking at
it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, their
primary home is one of these.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. ARNOFF: That's correct and they also
own a house right here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They own the lot next
to Mr. Leotis (sic), because when Mr. Leotis
(sic) came in for a variance --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, (inaudible)
saying it's this one.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- yeah, they gave
testimony.
MR. ARNOFF: I think that's when they
built their house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The house on 20,
20.5?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Do they have a house on
one of these lots?
BOARD SECRETARY: These two.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's a house on both
of these lots?
MR. AR_NOFF: On two lots on either side
of Kimberly Lane there are no houses.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So he owns the house
across the street on the water?
MR. ARNOFF: Yes, he does.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right next to Teddy.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right next to Teddy,
right.
MR. ARNOFF: I'm sorry that I don't --
I've got it here but I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's okay, we
have it. We know which one it is.
MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Arnoff, would you
mind showing us also?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just trying to get
a better idea of (inaudible).
MR. ARNOFF: This one, this one, and I'm
sure, I know it's one of these two, and he
owns this one.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. ARNOFF: No,
MEMBER HORNING:
Not that?
the one --
The one immediately
adjacent to the (inaudible) is not.
MR. ARiqOFF: That's an older house, I
think. What number is that?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So he owns this one.
MR. ARNOFF: I can tell you in one
second.
MEMBER HORNING: And while you're doing
that, so you're stating that they would
primarily walk across the street --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. ARNOFF: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: and/or maybe drive a
car and park along the --
MR. ARNOFF: Hopefully they don't have to
drive that far, because it's literally from me
to you to get to the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It would be more
problem to get in the car and get out of the
car than to walk across the street.
MR. ARNOFF: It's not a very -- by the
way, the lot, the contiguous lot that you were
pointing me to is in fact owned by the
Heffners.
MEMBER HORNING: It is.
MR. ARNOFF: Yes, it is. I have their,
on my mailing I have their tax map number and
the lot that we pointed out is theirs.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Heffners are on
20.177
MR. ARNOFF: No, 14.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, that's -- all
right, yeah, gotcha.
MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Arnoff you answered
my one question anyways cause it occurred to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
me are there other plans for the lot and you
say there are in the future.
MR. ARNOFF: There are, but not -- it
would be an absolute fabrication on my part to
tell you that they are intending to build
within the immediate future. It's not
happening. All right, the children are quite
young and even if they were to build it and
ostensibly to hold it for a period of time,
they're not prepared to do that at this point.
MEMBER HORNING: All right, could you say
this then, that if in fact the tennis court
existed, would the applicant then be able to
build a conforming-sized house on that parcel
in a conforming setback and all of this later
on in the future?
MR. ARNOFF: Provided the Code doesn't
change, absolutely. I don't see any reason
why not. It was situated, it was situated on
the lot with that very intent cause if you can
see from the drawing, it's -- I think it's a
minimum setback off Bayview -- off of North
Bayview. So it's essentially as far back on
the lot with the house then coming into the
subdivision itself.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Ail right, we certainly
would want to avoid the situation where three
years down the road they say, well, don't you
know we can't have -- we need a variance now
because the tennis court doesn't allow us the
flexibility to put the house where we needed
it to be.
MR. AP~NOFF: I believe we could put a
covenant in to the effect that if in fact that
were to occur the tennis court would be
removed.
MEMBER HORNING: All right.
MR. ARNOFF: I mean, again, I'm trying to
be -- my clients are trying to be good
neighbors and they're trying to quote ~do the
right thing", and I've explained to them this
is a difficult application. It's not,
although it's simple on it's face, it's hard
to kind of get your arms around and really
describe.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you have
three front yards,
MR. ARNOFF:
correct.
That's another -- that's
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA-N: That's another
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
rather difficult and awkward problem.
MR. ARNOFF: That's correct. I forgot,
you're correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Amd when you look
at a 10-foot high proposed fence, we now have
three elevations let's say or three --
MR. ARNOFF: Right. Well --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: -- (inaudible) that
are significant nonconforming.
MR. ARNOFF: A fence is a necessity for a
tennis court.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course it is.
There's no question.
MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Arnoff, it would not
be difficult then to actually draw a building
envelope on here that the Board can see as
sort of a proposed building lot so we can then
look at it and say yes, this building envelope
meets -- there's no variances going to be
necessary for whatever size building, 30x30 or
30x50 or whatever it is, is that --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, if you put a house
on this lot as it exists now, you're going to
be having a accessory structure in a front
yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. ARNOFF: Well, no matter where we put
it, Jim, we're going to have --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, so you're going
to need a variance.
MR. ARNOFF: -- a front yard. As Ms.
Weisman said, this is a very unique property.
It's three properties, we'd need a variance to
put up a house no matter what because we're
going to have a tennis court in a front yard,
by definition, no matter what. So we can't
agree to that. We can agree that there'll be
no further, no additional variances required
other than that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Setback.
MEMBER HORNING: So can we assume then
the Building Department sort of overlooked the
idea that the tennis court is proposed to be
in a front yard also in dealing with just the
fact of use?
MR. ARNOFF: No, I think you're correct.
I think they probably did.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. No, they
didn't. They stated the Code correctly and,
you know --
MR. ARNOFF: Yeah, they stated the Code
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
correctly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. I mean you
didn't apply for a house, you applied for
accessory structure on a lot that you can't
put --
MR. ARNOFF: (inaudible) denied it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. So I mean but
that's not to say that after you build this
and you go to build a house, you know, you end
up with a whole bunch of other problems.
MR. ARNOFF: That, you're absolutely
correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so I thought I
heard you say, and maybe we can cut this short
a little bit, that if you were to build a
house on here you would agree to take down the
tennis courts.
MR. ARNOFF: We would agree to take down
the tennis court if we needed some additional
variances other than the mere existence of the
court. In other words, if we needed --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just get to the
microphone, please, because we're recording.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. ARNOFF:
I didn't think it was on.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. ARNOFF: If we,
Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize
Thank you.
using Mr. Horning's
example, let's assume that we wanted to make
the house wider, okay, and then wanted some
side yard variances. We can't get them. In
other words, we would agree we would not get
any further variances in order to accomplish
the erection of a single-family dwelling
unless we removed the court, but if we can
build otherwise in conformity, remember we're
still -- if you just build a house on this
property you need variances. Just for a house
cause there's three front yards.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: It's going to need
a variance no matter what.
MR. AP~NOFF: I mean -- so we're faced
with that. So no, I don't want to agree to
remove the court in any event, I just want to
agree to remove the court if in fact we do
something that further violates the Code other
than the mere existence of the front yard
setback requirements of the Town.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, at that point
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you would need a variance for front yard --
for accessory structure in the front yard,
which would be granted or not at that time and
it would be removed or approved accordingly.
MR. ARNOFF: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Going back to your
example of going to the Building Department
with a proposed dwelling and tennis court and
you decided that you could build the tennis
court first and then proceed with the dwelling
later and maybe even do it 10 years later, but
you still had a --
MR. ARNOFF: You have to keep renewing
the building permit.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. You would have
had a building envelope on the survey in order
to do that and, you know, I don't think it's
unusual for us to kind of want an idea where
the building envelope would propose to be.
They must be, if they're thinking of a tennis
court and a house, then they must have some
idea where they would put it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only uniqueness
about that, George, is the fact that on any
lot such as the lot across the street, which
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the applicant also owns, any house on a piece
of property with three front yards is going to
require a variance anyway. Okay, there's no
other way.
MEMBER HORNING:
of merging it then?
What of the possibility
I mean why not merge it -
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can't merge it
because they don't own the property that's
right next to it.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's over here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That doesn't solve the
problem. That has two front yards.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One second, folks.
Look, you've offered some C&Rs on the subject
property, which we would like to entertain.
Your neighbor, rightly so, suggests fairly
extensive landscape screening if you're
dealing with a 10-foot high fence.
MR. ARNOFF: Absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which is an
enormous variance,
yards.
MR. ARNOFF:
by the way, in three front
There is, I understand that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Well, I mean if you
look at it percentage-wise and 4 feet is
permitted, you know, it's more than 100-
percent.
MR. ARNOFF:
Okay.
I'm well
aware of that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So perhaps what we
should do is get that information from you in
writing, the C&Rs that you would propose, the
notation of a building envelope on the survey,
and a landscape plan to show the location of
the fence and screening and clearly no
lighting, and your neighbor may be interested
in having a look at that plan.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Also, the color of
the fence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we could
start with the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The least obtrusive
color of the fence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The thing is --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Black.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. The other
thing is -- I'm an old tennis player and I
have the busted up knees to show it -- the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
fence doesn't have to be 10-feet, 8 feet will
do for a tennis court.
MR. AP~NOFF: You're the boss.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I'm, you
know, if you look at other fence heights for
existing tennis courts around here, you'll see
that a number of them are 8 feet high.
MR. ARNOFF: It might be a good idea to
have the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: I guess it depends
on how good your lobs are.
MR. ARNOFF: I think it might be a good
idea to have the 10-foot high part on Bayview.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, for the balls
going out in the road?
MR. ARNOFF: That's right, so 10-foot on
one side and 8-foot on --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, that's going to
look gorgeous, right? Different heights.
MR. ARNOFF: -- the other.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I would suggest
that you just talk this over, ask us for the
least possible, and put the greatest number of
covenants on that you can think of, add the
building envelope and some landscaping, show
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
us where you want to enter and exit the tennis
court. If it's going to be private, you're
going to need to have a locked gate on it.
Clearly you've suggested rightly so this is a
private not a public thing.
use.
MR. ARNOFF: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
It's for family
So we want to see
where you're going to propose, unless it's
already on here I don't, you know, where the
entry and exit is going to be and give us a
bit more detail and do we need to hold this
open or do we want to, you know, so we can
question it further after we get the
information --
MR. ARNOFF: It's fine with me.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a couple of
comments when you're ready.
MEMBER HORNING: I have one, too.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only thing is --
the only thing I disagree with, Leslie, is the
greatest amount of screening because it is a
corner lot --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Yeah, yeah.
-- and it is the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
entrance to the entire subdivision.
MR. ARNOFF: Absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Oh, absolutely.
MEMBER HORNING: And will one of the
covenants cover the lack of lighting? In
other words --
MR. ARNOFF: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There'd be a
restriction, no lighting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It would be in
there, yeah, which makes perfectly good sense.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. ARNOFF: Hi.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Okay.
Yes, sir?
I have a question.
Upon site inspection I noticed that there are
many mature pine trees along North Ba!rview and
to me it looks like they would be a natural
screening for this tennis court and I
preferably would like not to see a tennis
court on the North Ba!zview side only because
North Bayview being the most active road and
the tennis court immediate reaction on it may
be a little bit distracting to drivers and
what not, but then again along with the
landscape plan if you could show those trees,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the existing pine trees that are there.
Personally, I would like to see them saved and
maybe the tennis court moved.
MR. ARNOFF: Here's the -- the problem
with that, Mr. Schneider, is this is one of
the, if not the best, one of the best
subdivisions in the Town of Southold and for
the house to front -- what you're asking for
us to do is to take a lot that is part of the
subdivision and have the house front on North
Balrview. I submit that that would greatly
diminish the value of this lot and would not
be in my client's best interest to do that.
In other words, what you're saying is
bring the tennis court, where, the middle of
the lot? Then we definitely can't build a
house. Bring it all the way over to either
Kimberly or -- I think it's Roxanne, I'm not
sure, I -- Mr. (Inaudible) named all these
after children I think when he did this, but
the -- to bring it over there, then you would
have to put the house on the other side and I
don't think that's in my clients' long term or
short term economic interest. It really --
but we would do everything in our power. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
will speak with them about, you know,
certainly saving whatever can be saved. I
mean I think the court is 20 feet off of the
property line, which is then further off North
Bayview.
So I think that your concerns about those
trees might be such that very few of them, if
any, may have to be removed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I make a
suggestion?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let the landscape
plan show what mature trees onsite will remain
and which will be -- I mean a whole row of
Leland cyress will grow in about two years to
about 10 feet tall if you plant (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: These are very large
trees.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: No, they are, they
should stay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well you did say that
in the event that you were proposing a house
there and if the tennis court was in conflict
with the location that you would simply remove
the court. Anyway --
MR. ARNOFF: But the long term plan is to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
have a house and tennis court on this
property. I mean let's not -- I mean it's not
like you put a tennis court up now and five
years from now just tear it down and put up a
house, that's not what my clients want to do.
They really ultimately want a house and tennis
court on this property.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. I see there's a
well on the property.
MR. ARNOFF: There's nothing on this
property at this point.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On the survey it
indicates a well on the property.
MR. ARNOFF: That may be a fire well, I
don't know what that is.
have any information -- I
on the corner of the -- I
well it is, it's not ours.
It's not -- we don't
see that, it's right
don't know whose
Well, it's on the
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
property. Okay, is there --
MR. ARNOFF: That's not unusual. I've
seen cesspools on people's property, too.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, is there any
intent to put any other accessory structures
on this property?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. ARNOFF: Absolutely none.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Such as a shed or
something?
MR. ARNOFF: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Swimming pool?
MR. AHNOFF: No, no.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody else?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, just one quick
thing. In the possibility of what Mr.
Schneider is asking for, maybe the court could
be moved a little farther in than 20 feet and
stagger trees in between the existing mature
trees to totally block the court from North
Ba~rview.
MR. ARNOFF: My clients want to do that.
I mean they want to screen this court.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Without a destruction
to the trees, either existing trees or the new
trees.
MR. ARNOFF: Okay. We will endeavor to
save as many as we can.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let me do
this -- Jim, did you want to add anything
here?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Nope.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I want to see
if there's anyone else in the audience who'd
like to testify on behalf or in opposition to
this. Please come to the podium and if you
would please state your name and address.
MS. LoCASCIO: Good morning. My name is
Anne LoCascio and I live at 14 Kimberly Lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
spell that, Mrs. LoCascio,
your name for the record?
Would you please
would you spell
MS. LoCASCIO: L-O, capital C, A-S-C-I-O.
And I'm here on behalf of my neighbors, Sally
and Peter Heffner who I understand submitted a
letter to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
it.
Yes, we did receive
MS. LoCASCIO: Well, he just wanted to
state -- have me read into the minutes two
paragraphs.
"In general we have no objection to the
tennis court or its location. In fact, we
believe it might even add to the park-like
character of the neighborhood.
objection to the fence height.
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We have no
The site plan
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
submitted, at least that which we received,
however, does not address issues we believe
are most important. First, there is no
mention of lighting," which you cleared that
up, ~and second there is no landscape plan
offered. We are concerned the necessary
removal of trees might be extensive, thus we
would appreciate and believe a landscape plan,
which would screen the facility from our
property and the property opposite on North
Bayview Road should be a requirement.
~Furthermore, unless said landscape plan
also confines all lighting except ground level
pathway lighting strictly to the proposed
tennis court preventing same from being seen
from the above referenced properties, we
believe lighting should not be permitted.
~Thank you for your consideration."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, thank
you. Perhaps you can bring them up to date on
what transpired here at the hearing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Do we have a copy of
that?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We do have a copy
of the letter. Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MS. MONTEFORTE: Can I just say
something?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Please come
forward.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Hi, I am not an
immediate neighbor, but I live on North
Balrview.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And your name is?
MS. MONTEFORTE: Connie Monteforte and my
address is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you spell it,
please?
MS. MONTEFORTE: M-O-N-T-E-F-O-R-T-E. I
live at 470 North Ba!rview and my main concern,
I think everything that these people have done
has always been done in good taste, but the
lighting. I'm just afraid that once the
tennis court is there they can come back,
whether they put it in a covenant or not, that
it's a hardship and they need lighting because
I lived in Huntington and I saw it happen
there. So that's my main concern.
Is there any way that they can come back,
after the tennis court is there, and say you
know it's really a hardship, we'd like to use
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
it at night. Is that a possibility?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If they have
covenants and restrictions that prohibit it,
the only way they would be doing it would be
if they were doing it illegally and then they
would be subject to enforcement and you would
have the right to come to the Code Enforcement
officer and request that they have that
lighting removed.
MS. MONTEFORRTE: Okay, that was my main
concern and the other thing was that I did
come down to the Town to see where it would be
located on the property and there was no
drawing, you know, to see that. I guess maybe
I'm not privy to that information cause I'm
not
an immediate neighbor,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
public document.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
but my concern was
You are and it is a
If you come into
our office and talk to Ms. Toth, she'll be
glad to show you the site plan.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Yes, I did, yes, and I
didn't see where the tennis court would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
located on the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Perhaps he can
explain it to you, I'm sure he'd be more than
willing to explain it to you.
MS. MONTEFORTE: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are there any other
comments?
MS. MONTEFORTE: That's it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anything else from
the audience?
Please come forward.
MS. LoCASCIO: I also have another letter
from a neighbor that I would like to submit to
the Zoning Board from Catherine O'Hara who
also lives on Kimberly Lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, please do.
The Board gets copies, thank you.
Any other comments?
Hearing none, then I'm going to make a
motion to adjourn this hearing to May 20tn at
2:00 and we'd like to receive prior to that a
proposal -- May 20tn at 2:00, April is totally
booked, we can't do it -- subject to receipt
of proposed covenants and restrictions based
on what we discussed here and a landscape plan
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
based on what we discussed here.
MR. ARNOFF: Is there anything in the
letter that was submitted that we should --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The new letter?
MR. ARNOFF: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
for you and we'll make
Board members.
MR. ARNOFF: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
yOU.
We'll make a copy
a copy for all the
We'll send it to him.
We'll send it to
MR. ARNOFF: Thank you. Thank you for
your courtesy.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: So I have a motion
on the floor, is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6354 Nicholas deCroisset
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variance from Code Section
280-15, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's September
23, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning as-
built accessory shed, 1) at less than the code
required 35 foot front yard setback, 2)
location of accessory shed in the side yard
rather than a rear or front yard, (adjacent to
Great Peconic Bay) at 20 Third Street, New
Suffolk, NY. CTM#: 117-10-19."
Would you state your name for the record,
please?
MR. DECROISSET: Yes, Nick deCroisset.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How do you do? What
would you like to tell us?
MR. deCROISSET: I'm not sure how you'd
like me to proceed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, why don't you
tell us why the shed is there where it is?
MR. deCROISSET: Okay, well the
positioning of the shed, well, initially it
was obviously a mistake in the sense that I
wasn't aware of the rule. I had called the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
Building Department and they said there was no
permit required and so I wasn't quite familiar
with the setback requirements. I didn't think
there were some and I -- it's entirely my
fault and the fact that you don't have
knowledge of the law doesn't excuse it, but it
wasn't intentional is all I'm saying.
Basically, the property is a
nonconforming property (inaudible) shed and
it's totally (inaudible) property, it's on the
water and the idea was we wanted to do some
landscaping is try to keep all the accessory
structures together and not spread them out
over the property, so to keep sort of the
aesthetics and the character of the
neighborhood. Also the neighbor behind me, if
you look at his shed and his sort of accessory
properties there,
same line.
The shed was
they're approximately in the
left unpainted, the idea is
for it to gray, weather, and sort of blend in.
So I spoke to my neighbor and we sort of
agreed on the location and obviously it's a
location that's near a parking lot near the
front door so you can load and unload things
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
into the shed without having to walk through
the property. Basically the house is very
small so all the gardening stuff and things
like that need to be put away. I can put them
away there, it's very (inaudible).
So in terms of the three feet, I mean the
neighbor, of course, behind me wants to
preserve his view as much as possible so when
I talked to him about doing the variance that
was certainly an important consideration and
he supported it or they supported it. The
Martins have been there a long time, to get on
with my neighbors if possible, and the other
neighbors that I heard back from that the Dr.
Spire (sic) on the other side, he had no
problem with it. Of course, he's not really
affected by it. I haven't heard from the
third neighbor, but I imagine that they
wouldn't object to this because the shed would
be kept farther away from their property
rather than closer.
So the -- you know, I guess the setback
requirements I understand is 35 feet, this is
31.9, so the request for relief is 3.3 feet.
It's again a nonconforming structure. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
realize that it's a request for a variance and
it doesn't seem like a huge, in fact you
mentioned percentages before, it's about 10
percent, so all things equal I was hoping that
you would approve it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Don't consider this a
sarcastic statement because it's not, sir, but
would it take a tremendous amount of either
effort and/or money to move it to a more
conforming location, in your opinion?
MR. deCRISSET:
must have the most
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
really nice shed.
Yeah, partly because I
expensive contractor
It looks it, it's a
MR. deCROISSET: I built that shed with
my step-father. He planned it, and we, you
know, I helped him for a couple of days, I had
to take off work. It's very heavy. We also
put down sonatubes and so that it wouldn't get
blown away or moved (inaudible). So to, you
know, dig new holes and move it -- I also did
some landscaping so that would have to be
redone, obviously, and whenever you do these
things it costs. It costs money, but it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
certainly -- certainly it could be relatively
expensive.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's one of the
questions that we normally ask, okay, so it's
not a question that specifically --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It doesn't mean
we're suggesting you do it.
MR. deCROISSET: It's a
shed. I can agree, you know,
why don't you just move it 3
really little
it seems like
feet and that was
the question that the Building Department
asked me. They said, well, why would you go
through all that and I think part of it is
that and, of course, part of it is trying to
keep my neighbors happy because, you know,
they've had their property there for a long,
long time and we want to get along with people
and, you know, and I understand that property
hadn't changed in 50 years. Maybe longer than
that since (inaudible) owned it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, frankly, I'll
speak just for myself, I think that your
efforts to be a good neighbor and your
willingness to go through this variance
procedure to do things by the book and to pay
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
for it is very commendable and I would think
your neighbors would appreciate your
thoughtfulness. You certainly have a lot of
support in our record from the Martins asking
for support of this variance and I just wanted
the record to reflect that I appreciate your
thoughtfulness, but also your willingness to
do this responsibly and legally and to pay for
it.
MR. deCROISSET: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does any other
Board member have any question?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to ask
one question. Is there any utility in the
shed, is there any electricity?
MR. deCROISSET: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER HORiqING: Can you briefly tell us,
the shed recently built, give us a date?
MR. deCROISSET: Uh, let's see, when the
building first became was it in -- it was last
summer, so it was -- I just can't remember it
was June, July or August.
MEMBER HORNING: You built the shed
sometime last summer.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. deCROISSET: Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: How did the Building
Department get involved?
MR. deCROISSET: Somebody wrote a letter
just to see what was going on around the
property cause, you know, I'd done some
changes and somebody wrote a note just saying
that it should be looked at and so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The notice is
September 11, 2009, so you probably had just -
MR. deCROISSET: (Inaudible) later, yeah,
I mean we hadn't put the shingles on the roof.
You know, I think we just might, my step-
father was still building it, so the -- you
know, the Building Inspector came in and at
that point he'd come from Massachusetts, so he
said I guess we weren't aware of that. So he
said, would you like us to stop and he said
did I say that? No, but you're going to have
to deal with this, but by that point the
sonatubes were in, the base was in and, you
know, it was mostly done.
MEMBER HORNING: As far as you are aware
at least, would you say that there are any
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
neighbors who have written letters of
objection?
MR. deCROISSET: No.
MEMBER HOPPING: But yet, someone did
notify the Building Department.
MR. deCROISSET: New Suffolk is a tiny
town of 300 and people are very aware of
everything that goes on there. I'm right on
the water, so anything I do gets commented on,
which is, you know, par for the course. You
know, I didn't (Inaudible) back down on the
jetty, other things, you know, people
complained, I put them back (inaudible) blown
away cause I was stupid enough not to pick
them up and now I'm having them redone and I'm
putting them back. So, you know, it's almost
seen as a public house that house because
everybody has seen it, everybody knows it, and
you know but so I think everybody is going to
comment on -- I don't have any more plans.
That's about it.
MEMBER HORNING: Are there many people
come down there to park to gain access to the
MR. deCROISSET: Yeah. To the beach?
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MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MR. deCROISSET: Yeah, it's -- that's why
I built a little driveway so that I could park
there. People tend to park on Third Street
quite a bit. It's a very popular beach. So -
- but mostly the people live in the Town, so
everybody knows everybody, and it's a nice
place.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~lq: Anyone in the
audience wish to speak in favor or in
opposition to this application?
Hearing no further comments, I make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision for a later date. Second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
**********************************************
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6357 - Julien and Claudia Ramone
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let the Board be
aware of the fact that we have -- the office
has been in contact with Mark Schwartz, who is
the architect for the Ramones, and they
weren't aware, even made aware of the fact
that the required certificate of
appropriateness from Landmark Preservation to
demolish the house and reconstruct a new house
was denied. As a result -- yes, it was
denied. Well, the hearing was held open.
They did not accept -- they did not issue a
certificate of appropriateness. They are
going to be doing some additional paperwork.
The architect has requested -- and we
requested that he submit it in writing, but
that was only yesterday, so he hasn't done
that yet -- that we adjourn this particular
hearing so that what they present to us has
some coordination with what they are likely to
get or will get in the way of a certificate of
appropriateness, which certainly makes more
sense because we'd be going back and forth in
circles until got resolved.
So --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I comment? I think
we should open the hearing before we have this
discussion. I mean this should be, you know,
because we have no letter, that should be on
the record, and you know we should open the
hearing and let the applicant do what the
applicant wants to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq:
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
(Inaudible).
that we adjourn to
next month or the month after, whatever it is,
and, you know, it's just hearsay now, really.
It's just, you know, not to say I don't
believe Vicki, but you know it's a public
hearing or announced public hearing, there may
be people out in the audience that might want
to comment on what was published in the paper,
certainly, you know, they should have that
opportunity and when we get something in
writing, we schedule the hearing, and go from
there.
I just don't like the idea of having the
discussion outside the hearing, outside the
public hearing. So it should be opened up and
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, procedurally,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
we can do it either way and that's all right
if you want to do it that way, then we will
open this hearing and I will ask if there is
anyone in the audience who wishes to address
this application.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, let's do that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, let's do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: The hearing is open?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is none. The
hearing is open.
MEMBER HORNING: (Inaudible) adjourn?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is none. So
I'm going to make a motion to adjourn this
hearing to June at 1:00. Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6358 - Ryan and Jennifer Stork
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-15(B), based on an application for
building permit and the Building Inspector's
October 26, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed demolition of existing
accessory garage and construction of a new
accessory two car garage, (proposed height
over 20 feet) at less than the code required
side yard setback of 20 feet, at 3270 Great
Peconic Bay Blvd., (adjacent to Great Peconic
Bay) Laurel, N Y. CTM#: 128-6-8."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr.
need an affidavit of posting.
that in our record.
Fitzgerald, we
We don't have
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I do so declare. I
don't have it at this moment; however, I under
oath will say to you that the posting
requirements have been fulfilled.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, unless I
place you under oath, you aren't under oath.
I don't know that we need to do that. I know
that we need to receive it. When can you have
that into the office?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. FITZGERALD: When could what?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: When can you have
the affidavit of posting in to the office?
MR. FITZGERALD: This afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This afternoon?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. All
right, we'll proceed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Would you state your
name for the record?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, my name is James
Fitzgerald representing Ryan and Jennifer
Stork and I will, as has become my custom,
read my notes, if I may.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FITZGERALD: You will, some of you,
recall that when I first appeared before the
Board for these clients we were asking to
demolish the existing dwelling and the
accessory garage/guest house and replace them
with new structures in the same locations and
with the same uses. That plan was revised
several times, the last resulting in
relocation of the house for the regulatory
minimum setback of 75 feet from the bulkhead
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
and the denial of the accessory structure
because of the proposed continuation of its
existing use.
So we're back. The benefit sought in
this application to be permitted to build a
new accessory garage with side yard setbacks
as previously discussed with the Board, which
are more suitable than those of the existing
structure, as required to accommodate the
proposed structure on this lot, which is only
42 feet wide. The current zoning regulations
require the total side yard setbacks to be at
least 35 feet in this R-40 District, leaving 7
feet for the garage, if we were to comply with
them. The garage we're proposing is only 22
feet wide.
The existence of the original detached
accessory garage/guest house was the feature
that led us to apply for the project we
proposed at the beginning of our plans for
this property. Leaving it unchanged in its
previous location it limited the landward
relocation of the main house further away from
the bulkhead. The project was revised to
allow the reallocation of the dwelling at the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
required 75-foot setback from the bulkhead,
which change required the demolition of the
accessory garage/guest house and the building
of a new accessory structure at a new location
landward of the dwelling.
In the present proposal for the
relocation of the accessory garage to the
front yard, although to a site further from
the east property line, the side yard setbacks
become an issue. Our comments which were made
here concerning those setbacks for the main
house apply as well to the accessory
structure. The setback from the east property
line is the same as that approved by the Board
for the house. It should be considered that
the unusual shape shared by many of the
properties in this neighborhood, and to a
lesser extent with many throughout the town,
is such that the portion of the property
within the dwelling is located has the width
characteristics of a much smaller lot and thus
the side yard setback imposed for both
structures are more suitable for a lot of
ordinary proportions.
We are, of course, proposing less than
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the regulatory requirement, but the relief
sought based upon the predominant lot
configurations does not seem unreasonable.
When you approve this portion of the overall
project for the property, the footprint of the
proposed house will have improved upon the
existing side yard setbacks, the setback of
the house from the bulkhead will be in
compliance with the Town Code. The use of the
property for a single-family residence with an
accessory garage will be unchanged. Under
similar circumstances, many houses with
accessory structures in the larger
neighborhood have been renovated and expanded
and so the ~waterfront-ness" and character of
the neighborhood will be unchanged by your
approval of the variance we seek.
The retention of the guest house use of
the accessory structure was an important part
of the original proposal and, as you know, the
Board denied our application for the required
relief with regard to the use of the accessory
structure, but indicated in its findings that
denial was "without prejudice to filing of a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
new application to build a garage with reduced
side yard setbacks." Here it is.
Thank you.
Now, may I again --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please come
forward.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we'll give you
this mike. That's why I created that little
crevice in there.
MR. FITZGERALD: The crevice is over
here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, then we'll give
you Leslie's.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You clearly told us
by a telephone call requesting additional
information that the upstairs of this proposed
garage is 22x24; is that approximately the
correct situation?
MR. FITZGERALD: The overall dimensions
of --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, not the inside
dimensions, the outside dimensions.
FITZGERALD: That's -- not the floor
MR.
space.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not the floor space.
MR. FITZGERALD: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But the actual
outside dimensions are 22x24.
MR. FITZGERALD: I'd like to read
MR.
you will,
16x22.
something, may I?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
FITZGERALD: No.
the open space,
Sure.
It's 16 -- the, if
the floor space is
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The floor space, all
right, I'm going to write that down, 16x22.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, that is this
dimension.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, so the
-- Thank you, that's why we asked you for
that, okay. So the entire second floor
inclusive of the proposed bathroom is 16x24.
Excuse me, 16x22.
MR. FITZGERALD: 22.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That is the area that
you are proposing as a playroom?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Now, in
looking at the original structure when the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
leaves were on the ground last year, okay, and
we were all sliding around the property in
our cars, we noticed -- I noticed, I'm not
speaking for the Board, that there had never
been any attempt to heat this structure in any
way. There was no heating, there was no air
conditioning, there were no fans, I didn't see
anything. Okay, of course this was probably
right after the Storks purchased the property
or thereabouts.
MR. FITZGERALD: That's right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is there any attempt
at this proposed new use, okay, because it's a
new structure, there is a present use, but
there is a new use, okay, to do any of those
things?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and to what
extent is the HVAC going to exist? Meaning --
MR. FITZGERALD: I would -- I would think
that it would be regular condition space.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: As for a, God forbid I
say it, a dwelling. It is not --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
be seasonal use?
MR. FITZGERALD: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're going to use
that upstairs year-round?
MR. FITZGERALD: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Are you heating the
garage portion of the ground floor?
MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can you find that out
for us, please?
MR. FITZGERALD: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: I would think not, but I
will confirm that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What exactly exists
downstairs other than the garage?
MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What exactly exists
downstairs other than the garage? Is there
anything else downstairs that is going to
exist --
MR. FITZGERALD: No. No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So the entire first
floor will comprise itself as being
MR. FITZGERALD: with the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- storage area and
garage?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, it might be a
workbench or, you know, the things that we
have in our garages, if we had garages.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Part of this plan,
however, shows a storage closet, a shed and a
vestibule with some stairs.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that is, while
it's not in the -- adjacent to and a part of
the overall structure and footprint, the
garage is just an open space with enough room
for two cars to pull in, but there are
additional structures other than that on this
ground floor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Right, right.
They're all -- this
is one building, okay, just so it's clear, and
the actual proposed playroom and half-bath is
really set over the garage portion. What's on
the second floor is just the stairs going up -
MR. FITZGERALD: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The shed and the
vestibule actually have a one-story roof and
the garage portion with playroom and bath have
a two-story with 20-foot high --
MR. FITZGERALD: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- ceiling height.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Now, what is your
definition of the word playroom?
MR. FITZGERALD: A room that the family
can use -- in a previous application I used
the term a day room, which is left over from
my service days. It's a place where family
members can go and leave a mess when they get
done. The kids don't have to pick up their
blocks and their toys or what-have-you. Where
the parents can sit there and enjoy the kids
without worrying about the carpet in the main
house or if the social considerations are such
that the main house facilities are in use for
a swinging party, they might want to have the
kids someplace else.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me backtrack for
one second. Again, through the overall
inspection of the premises, the only place
that I have seen a half-bath was on the first
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
You are now proposing a half-bath on
floor.
the second floor; is that correct?
MR. FITZGERALD: It is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right.
MR. FITZGERALD: For access from the
playroom.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
You have indicated to us that heating and
air conditioning are a consideration under
this application?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That' s correct. On
the second floor only -- oh, you're going to
get -- you're going to get --
MR. FITZGERALD: I'm going to find out.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Find out, okay. If
for a specific reason the Board was so
inclined not to grant heating and air
conditioning because there is no heating and
air conditioning in the existing unit in the
existing building as it exists --
MR. FITZGERALD: All right, may I
interrupt? We spent a lot of time at the end
of the last hearing talking about how the
existing structure and its CO were gone.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, go ahead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So would the Board --
so will you accept alternate relief if there
is that particular consideration? If that is
a particular consideration of this Board in
the deliberation aspect?
MR. FITZGERALD: If you felt, if the
Board felt that it would serve some
significant, logical, and realistic purpose,
I'm sure that the Storks would be happy to
consider that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me backtrack to a
decision that was made on Rabbit Lane in East
Marion where a person did not want to bring a
fishing shack up to present day standards and
there have to deal with all of the other
aspects that were involved, okay, and said
that all we want to do is insulate the
structure. That doesn't bar a person from
sticking in a plug-in heater or something of
that nature, but there were no formal
applications for consideration from this
Board, okay, that I am aware of that allowed,
okay, any formal type of heating and air
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
conditioning system. So that's what I'm
referring to. I mean we understand that if
it's 30 degrees out and you want -- the kids
want to play over there and you want to plug
in a heater, well, that's a different
situation, but conceivably if we are so -- if
the Board under the deliberation aspect, the
democratic way that we deliberate, that is
three votes carry the motion, and there was an
objection to the heating system -- because it
doesn't exist today in the present auspices of
what we're seeing in the much more
nonconforming structure, which is built almost
on the property line, okay -- then you will
accept alternate relief?
MR. FITZGERALD: I will certainly present
it, but I think the property owners would like
to see or be able to read in the minutes the
reasoning of the Board in making such a
decision. Why, what does it hurt? Who does
it hurt to have regular built-in heating
controlled by a thermostat that kids can't
knock over and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm only playing
devil's advocate from the point of view of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
trying to open this up to what may or may not
occur during the deliberation process.
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: All right, I understand
that. The only point I make, again, is that
at the end of the last meeting the fact that
the existing building isn't there anymore and
we are starting from scratch in a new age when
people, when they have the where with all,
make things as comfortable and as real as they
can and -- but on the other hand I have a
portable plug-in heater that I would be sure
to let them have, if that's what the Board
thinks is the best solution.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. The only other
thing I have is that in looking at the overall
height of the structure, I am looking at a
structure that is 22 feet to the ridge. Is
that what is proposed, to your knowledge?
MR. FITZGERALD: May I -- is that what's
on the drawing?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's what it shows.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
feet.
MR. FITZGERALD: 22.0,
The drawing is 22
yes .
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you aware of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the fact that if you -- right now you're
proposing an accessory structure up to 20+
feet. If the height of that accessory
structure was 18 feet, then one of those side
yards would be absolutely conforming. Okay,
you would not even have that nonconformity.
It's because it's 20 feet or higher as an
accessory structure that your side yards are
becoming both nonconforming.
MR. FITZGERALD: No, I was -- that never
came up with the architect or the owners.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
want the 20-foot height --
MR. FITZGERALD: What
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Well, they probably
is it 187
18 feet high would
give you a different bulk schedule for side
yards.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, I'd have to talk
with --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jennifer, have you
got the Code?
One of the concerns that's on a lot
that's -- your lot is 21,974.
MR. FITZGERALD: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On lots between 20
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
and 39,999 --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: (Inaudible) bulk
schedule the proposed 18 feet would be a 10-
foot minimum side yard.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so if you
proposed 18 feet, you would need a 10-foot
minimum side. You've got 14 on one and 5.7 on
the other.
MR. FITZGEHALD: Yeah, the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You'd have a -- if
you moved it over just slightly, you'd have
one conforming and one virtual conforming side
yard. You'd be sort (inaudible) foot, if it
became 18 feet high you would have one
conforming and one almost, literally by a foot
you'd miss conformity on the other side.
Maybe you want to talk to your clients about
that and the architect, so that we can, you
know, reduce again --
MR. FITZGERALD: Sure. As an architect,
do you come across many 18-foot high two-story
buildings with a decent sill clearance?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, but I mean
what this particular architect enjoys doing a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
lot is a whole lot of trellises and a lot of
dormers and some of that I'm actually
questioning whether or not we have the right
percentage of dormer relative to roof-lift
here. It wasn't -- this is the correct plan?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, ma'am.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Okay. But that's
not in our notice, so I'm not going there.
The point is dormers create a great deal of,
you know, additional volume on the interior in
terms of ceiling height. So it's something
that we should at least bring up at this
hearing to see what the reason for the
nonconforming side yards is relative to the
height. If we can possibly reduce it, we
would want to.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can also just
proceed as applied for and see what happens.
MR. FITZGERALD: My comment is that it's
a 4-foot difference and I think that's a lot,
but I'm not an architect and I --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Jim, I've been over
there twice, again, and I have to tell you
this issue of reducing the height and creating.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
less side yard based upon Code requirements is
right on the dollars of what I am thinking. I
really don't want to see a minimum side yard
on this structure of less than 10 feet, okay,
and that is why this whole issue that has just
MR.
at less than 10 feet?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
10 feet on both sides.
FITZGERALD: Do you mean neither one
Yeah, I'd like to see
Okay?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: You're not going to
be able to get 10 feet, almost --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Almost, I know. It's
almost 10 feet. So I mean that's --
MR. FITZGERALD: Is that in any way
affected by the fact that the neighbor to the
east has, in effect, a
that property line?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
zero-side setback on
I am aware of that,
okay, that doesn't mean that this is etched in
stone. I am only presenting it from my
particular point of view, I am not
representing the Board in any way regarding
that. So if you can sweeten that situation a
little based upon the conformity, meaning
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
sweeten the conformity, we would appreciate it
-- I would appreciate it.
MR. FITZGERALD: Are you continuing to
refer to the height and the affect that would
have on the required setback?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you don't
want to reduce the width of the garage to less
than 22 feet --
MR. FITZGERALD: No, I --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- because you need
it for the two cars. The only way that you
can reduce the nonconforming side yard is by
lowering the height, otherwise, it's as
proposed and we can proceed.
I want to see if there are any other
people who have questions on the Board.
MEMBER HORNING: I want to ask a short
question because --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You need to speak to
him because he needs to read your lips.
MEMBER HORNING: All right, it makes the
issue of the dormers very relevant in my mind.
So can you provide,
MR. FITZGERALD:
on that basis.
for example --
It was not disapproved
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MR. FITZGERALD: We went through that
last time on the matters --
MEMBER HORNING: Completely, right.
Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ken, do you have
any --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, I just have a
comment. Because of the narrow width of the
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MR. FITZGERALD: Wait. I have to turn
around.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure, no problem.
MR. FITZGERALD: All right, proceed.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, my review of the
width of the property, I see that turning
around in that driveway if the garage is
positioned so that it is in the center of the
lot, you're coming out and turning around, I
had a hard time turning around in that little
space myself as we did our site inspection.
So I don't have a problem where the garage is
proposed, at this point, that's just me
speaking, and that's all I wanted to say to
the Board.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that's a
valid point.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The only concern has
always been that you need to be able to place
a ladder on your client's property, on their
own property to work on this building and that
is the reason why another foot or two on the
side yard on the smaller side yard, okay,
would be very helpful.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, so you're not --
do I understand correctly that you're not
suggesting that the footprint be changed,
simply relocated?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
to the building where it
I have no objection
is, except that it be
moved over just a little bit.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, that's what I
mean.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As proposed,
alternative relief to increase the side yard,
the smaller side yard by another foot or
something.
MR. FITZGERALD: With the same footprint?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Same footprint,
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same building.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The other issue is
that the Notice of Disapproval reads in excess
The question is is that to the
is it to the ridge? Okay and
of 20 feet.
mean roof or
that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the ridge.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
On the plan it's
I understand it's
shown as the ridge, but if he reduces the plan
to 18 feet, you probably can still go higher
in reference to the present plan. So, I mean,
that's an issue. I mean, not the present
plan, but the proposed plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think accessory
structure code is written to the ridge, it's
not written to the -- it's to the ridge.
That's what he's got.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It is. All right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any other
questions? Is there anyone in the audience
who would like to speak in favor or in
opposition to this application?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I make
a motion to close this hearing, reserving
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
decision to later date. Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We just need the
affidavit to make sure --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
Subject to receipt of the affidavit of posting
we are closing this hearing.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6355 - Joseph and Rita DeNicolo
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Ail right, we have
a request from Mr. Herrmann regarding the
first application that we heard today
indicating the architect -- he's conferred
with the architect and the architect indicated
that there was not going to be necessary to
perform any excavation around the area or dig
up the foundation and so on, they're just
going to heighten it and what he's requesting
is that we reopen the hearing for five minutes
so that he may enter that information into the
record and then decide whether or not we
should adjourn as we previously did, or we
should close the hearing.
I am poling the Board to see what you
think.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Madam Chairperson, I
am suggesting that if the Board do that that
we do it at 1:50, not immediately.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh yeah. We don't
have to interrupt the hearings.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to do
that today, what do you say, Jim?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll certainly entertain
reopening it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right,
let's proceed. Let me look at the schedule to
give you an approximate time. How far behind
are we? We're quite a ways behind and we will
have to take some break. Let's say 2:00,
approximately.
All right, I'll make a motion that we
will reopen this hearing on DeNicolo at 2:00
purposely to receive additional testimony from
Mr. Herrmann.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6360 Stein Family
Residence Trust
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we have a
resolution. The Stein Family Trust has
requested in writing that we withdraw their
application and so since we legally noticed
it, we have to pass a resolution to accept
their letter requesting withdrawal of their
application. I so move, is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6353 Lewis Edson
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variance from Chapter 72,
Art. 1, Section 72-4, based on an application
for building permit to operate a farm stand in
an existing building, and the Building
Inspector's September 21, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval stating the proposed use does not
meet the definition of a farm stand, at 30105
Route 25, Cutchogue, NY. CTM~: 102-2-16."
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Okay, Mr. Edson
state your name for the record, please.
MR. EDSON: Good morning. My name is
Lewis Edson. I live on the Main Road in
Cutchogue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Mr. Edson, before
we proceed, we have two green cards that are
missing. Do you have any --
MR. EDSON: Yeah, we have -- those --
they never got delivered. Those people are on
vacation. (Inaudible) who lives next door
hasn't been around for a few months. Joe
Dunn, could not find Joe Dunn. I have in your
file notice from the Post Office of trying to
deliver both of those --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. EDSON: -- certified letters.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do we have any
greed cards?
BOARD SECRETARY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we just have two
missing. How many were --
MR. EDSON: You've got 17 out of 19,
including the cemetery.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So would you say you
have -- you handed us something that's says
that you mailed them?
MR. EDSON: You have in your file, or
Vicki does, notice from the Post Office of
them trying to make the delivery.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, well then that's
the attempt. That's fine.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, now did you
want to --
MR. EDSON: Yeah, I don't know exactly --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) Edson -
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, let Mr. Edson
present his application.
MR. EDSON: In the file, if you've had a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
chance to read it, I've got all the
information on this application and the
history of the property where it goes back to
when my father originally bought it in '74,
but if I could just before I highlight the
history, I was -- this has been a contentious
situation with the Town for a number of years.
There's been lawsuits back and forth.
In September I went in to see Scott and
agreed with the new ordinance, the new farm
stand ordinance, that I would scale back my
operation to comply with the farm stand
ordinance. When I got turned down by the
Building Department it surprised me because in
my reading of the ordinance, I comply. The
basic problem from what I can see with the
Building Department was that the building
itself is over 3000 square feet. Well, every
winery out here is over 3000 square feet and
they've got a retail section, but in the
ordinance, on page 2 of Chapter 72, under the
definition of farm stand, "Any primary
structure or portion of a structure greater
than 80 square feet", and on and on and on.
Now, I think that the ordinance was set
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
up for this kind of a situation where you have
a larger building, but you can only use a
portion of it for retail operation.
So saying that, (inaudible) be? I first
planted trees in 1979 on 3-4 acres of a farm
and I eventually filled out the 27 acres of
the farm and by 1986 the first trees were
large enough to harvest for Christmas trees
and I built a Morton building in June of 1986
and opened for Christmas tree sales at that
time. The original building had no floor, was
a dirt floor, there was no insulation, there
was no heat. I was surprised at the business
we ended up doing and the following year put a
floor in, insulated it, put heat in. A couple
of years later, I did start to add accessory
items.
In 1984 there was a decision rendered by
the Town Court with Bill Price presiding,
commonly referred to as the James Decision,
which you all have a copy of in your file, and
that decision basically was you had a
greenhouse on the North Road in Mattituck
where he grew plants in and then sold them
from the greenhouse. Part of those things
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that he sold were items that correlated with
the stuff that he grows. George Fisher, who
was one of the Building Inspectors at the
time, had gone in purchased some items that
weren't grown on the property and used that as
the basis for issuing a violation. That
violation was then presented to the Town Court
and the decision was rendered by Price that it
did comply with the zoning at the time. I
relied on that decision. I still feel that
what I did originally was legal. I still
think what I'm doing now is legal, but I'm
tired of the lawsuits and I'm willing to bring
it back in scale, back to the relatively new
farm stand code.
In 1990 I added an addition to the
original building of approximately 6000 square
feet. The original building was 2500 square
feet and if you look at the architecture of
the building it's got skylights, it's got
heat, it's got double doors that go out to the
staging area along the side the building where
all the trees that are harvested from the farm
come in, get baled and get loaded. There's I
think eleven 3x4 windows along each wall and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
remember at the time when Vick Lasard came in,
Building Inspector at the time, said Lew,
you're going to have public asserably in here
make sure you get exit signs over the doors.
Well as time goes on and Boards change,
Supervisors change, people in the Building
Department change, Town Attorneys change,
there is now a different slant on what I was
doing -- what I am doing.
So to try to alleviate the situation,
I've made this application. Other highlights
that I can think of, originally because the
business was more than I expected there was
traffic problems at the property to the point
that the Town provided a policeman to direct
traffic. To alleviate that problem, I widened
the driveway to allow in and out traffic.
Before, it was just allowing one-way in or
one-way out. I own the property along Depot
Lane that is adjacent to the farm and I
created a secondary means of egress out the
side and back of the farm and since 1988, I
would say, there really hasn't been a traffic
problem there.
The other highlight that I'd like to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
point out was in the late 90s the Boy Scouts
requested to use part of the property during
the Christmas season to have a small carnival
as a fundraiser. I granted them that right,
they again had to come to the Board, to the
Town Clerk for the permit, get it approved by
the Town Board, and that happened three or
four times over the period in the late 90s and
I can't believe that the Town Board would have
granted those permits if they thought I was in
violation.
So I think, at this point, that's why I
said there are things, some questions from the
Planning Board. I went to the work session
with the Planning Board. I think that I
basically have covered with them whatever
questions they had. They sent an original
letter, which I went in through the work
session and talked to them about. Then they
sent a follow up letter which I just got from
Vicki yesterday and had made a reply to her
comments, which I presented to Vicki this
morning, which is just going into your file.
So you have copies of the survey which is
supposed to show putting in a new partition
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
which will bring the retail sales area down to
3000 square feet. I'd also like to point out
that not all of that 3000 square feet is
simply Christmas-related items because it's
new I don't have it 100 percent set up,
obviously, but the wreath making and the
wreath decorating has to become a portion of
that square footage and that probably, based
on what we presently use in the back building,
will amount to 20 or 25 percent of that 3000
square feet.
I'm hoping that other questions that I
have forgotten to talk about are answered in
all of the things that I have submitted.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would like to ask the
questions after I hear from the audience
because I'm just a little perplexed as to the
reason why he's here, maybe I can get an
explanation, if you don't mind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually, that's a
good idea because we need to change the tape
right now.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a perfect
segue. So we'll just take one second for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
tapes to be changed and then we'll
in the audience.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
have the tape in order.
see who's
(TAPE CHANGE)
Okay, I believe we
I'm going to ask if there's anyone in the
audience that would like to speak regarding
this application by Mr. Edson. Please come to
the podium, either one, wherever is
convenient.
MS. SAWASTYNOWITZ: Thank you for
listening to me. My name is Nancy
Sawastynowitz, S-A-W-A-S-T-Y-N-O-W-I-T-Z. I
live in Cutchogue and I would like to go on
record disapproving Lew Edson's #6353 request
for a variance.
The Christmas tree farm and huge retail
store has been running an illegal business in
a low-density residential R-80 zone for years.
It is a impact to the whole neighborhood. In
the application his own history of Santa's
Christmas Tree Farm, "In 1987 on the busy
weekends the building was overcrowded and
traffic waiting to get on the property from
Route 25 was backed up 15-20 cars." That was
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
in 1987. We all know how bad traffic is now.
The applicant made the entrance wider and the
exit on Depot Lane. It is not safe. I live
off of Pequash Avenue. To get in and out of
Pequash is really dangerous. There is a
turning lane to Pequash going west, when cars
are going into the Christmas Tree Farm they
stop and stand in our turning lane. Very
confusing, what does one do when a car is
sitting in your turning lane facing you in the
middle of traffic? One suggestion is to close
off the Main Road altogether using only Depot
Road to enter and exit the Christmas Tree
Farm.
To allow an illegal business in an R-80
zone is not Ua valuable asset to our Town or
residents." This is from Mr. Edson's history
of the farm. It is unfair to our town to have
such a large business stay and get bigger and
break the law. After reviewing the
applicant's file, I want to remind this Board
how on February 11, 1997 the Planning Board,
"After repeated attempts to correct the
situation have been made to no avail, the
Planning Board feels that the Building
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
Department should revoke the current
Certificate of Occupancy and issue a violation
based on the fact that a retail store is not
permitted by the CO."
It is a joke if he thinks calling the
business a farm stand will get him approval.
I've been inside the store. There is no way
it could ever be a farm stand. On the
applicant's webpage he boasts, "Retail store
space measures almost 10,000 square feet
making us one of the largest Christmas stores
in the northeast." Would you, the Board, like
to have the largest Christmas store in the
northeast as your neighbor in a residential
zone -- 10,000 square feet of it?
I disagree with the applicant's project
description area variance reason #4, ~The
variance will not have an adverse affect or
impact on the physical or environmental
conditions in the neighborhood or distract
because", his answer, "it has been a part of
the neighborhood for 24 years." Oh right,
breaking the law for 25 years makes it right.
I live in that neighborhood and it's a huge
impact. By breaking the law for so many years
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
is not right. Mr. Edson has cost taxpayers
lots of money paying for lawsuits at Supreme
Court, taking up time with all the different
Boards. It sets a precedent in our town, oh,
just build whatever you want the Town doesn't
do anything about it. It's time to say no to
breaking the law. It's zoned R-80,
residential low-density for a reason, to keep
out 10,000 square feet of illegal store.
The Christmas Tree Farm is not a seasonal
business. It starts Labor Day when we have
serious summer traffic problems. Santa is
there working weekends after Thanksgiving to
visit, more serious traffic problems. Then,
of course, Christmastime, it is nuts there at
the time when the roads are at a bad condition
because of the weather. We need to protect
the character and safety of our residential
neighborhoods, stop this illegal business.
And I just wanted to say one thing, he's
mentioning wineries, but this is not an
agricultural zone that he's doing it in. This
is a zone for residential low-density.
Thank you very much for listening to me.
I'm a little emotional about it because he's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
been breaking the law for so long and I don't
think it's right. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
Is there anyone else who'd like to
address this application?
MS. ATKINSON: Hello. I'm totally
unprepared, my name is Lois Atkinson.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq:
MS. ATKINSON: Sure,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Spell it, please.
first or last?
Last.
MS. ATKINSON: A-T-K-I-N-S-O-N.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MS. ATKINSON: I really didn't come here
prepared to speak. I get up every morning and
I think it's going to be an educational day.
This has been totally negative. I feel like I
own property, but I have no control over what
I can do with it.
This business, I think we're right, you
just heard it, it's a really successful
business in town. It's like one of the most
comfortable places to go after a day like
this, I'd love to go over there and walk
through the building now and take a look at
Santa or the snowYnen or whatever is going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
calm me down about 100 percent. You're gonna
open this afternoon. It's just like one of
the best things you can do on a rainy day is
to go over there. You don't have to spend a
dime, just go over there and have the holidays
and the holidays are limited. It's not -- it
is a seasonal business.
You can't get off of Pequash all summer
long. What's the difference to get off of
Pequash September, October or through to the
end of December? You can't go left turn
anywhere in this town most of the year, maybe
now. Maybe coming now or ending now, but you
can't go -- you're not going left normally.
There's other ways to get off of Pequash. You
can scoot down to Stillwater. I live on
Leslie Road, the people from Nassau Point come
down all the time through Leslie Road to go
out Indian Neck because they won't go out
through the light at Eugene's or Skunk Lane
because they can't get off onto 25.
I've taken kids over there this big who
still think that the line of trees that were
this big when they were 4 years old are now
their size because they're working over there
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
now, maybe. I don't know what they're doing
but they're saying oh the trees get so big.
It's an educational thing for them. Going
through the store is an education thing. They
get to see the old world Santas, the old world
snow people. There's all kinds of things that
they're not going to get if you're buying
(inaudible) Target.
We have to co-exist in this town. It's
all about bringing the tourism in and having
them go home, but we, you know, it's the same
thing -- what are you going to do? In October
shut down the farm stand because you can't get
out onto 25? We can't be doing this stuff.
We need to co-exist. I'm not getting it. I
don't get any of it. I have no idea why one
business is the problem and a successful
business in town. I'm not against all the
wineries and it's come, it's been a lot
different. I moved here in '72. It's a lot
different since '72. Is it bad? No, it's not
bad, but we have to get along and your
regulations, you have to make some adjustments
here. It's just, it's not going to work.
We're going to need to evacuate eventually.
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It's crazy,
MR. SCHWARTZ:
afternoon already.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
your name for the record,
it's nuts.
Good afternoon.
You have to
Benjamin.
It's
state
MR. SCHWARTZ: My name is Benjamin
Schwartz and I'm very happy to be here today
to speak on this issue. It's been a long time
coming before we've had an application to the
Town to legalize this store.
A lot of what we're heard already today
is irrelevant to the substance of your
decision. I'd like to speak about that, but I
will take one minute to just answer some of
the nonsense that we've heard. Specifically,
I remember standing here in approximately 1989
when Gene Cochran was the Supervisor and there
-- I'll try to make this short -- it was
during the Town Board meeting there was a
public hearing that was not scheduled for
another 10 minutes. There was nothing else on
the agenda so everybody was sitting around
doing nothing and Gene said, well, while we're
waiting does anybody have anything they want
to talk about? Well, I mentioned the
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Christmas Tree Farm. Oh, who are you the
Cutchogue Scrooge? We're not talking about
that. We'll just sit here and that's what
they did, sit here for 10 minutes. So that's
the kind of attitude that some of the town
officials had.
Now, I'm not sure if this is an
application for an area variance or use
variance.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is neither. I
will just clarify that for the public.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What is before us
is the inter -- whether or not Mr. Edson as he
has now applied to this Board, meets the
definition, the current definition as passed
recently, of a farm stand. That's what's
before us, not an area variance and it's not a
use variance. He's applied for an
interpretation as to whether what he's
proposing meets the Code definition of a farm
stand.
MR. SCHWARTZ: And apparently his
property has more than one zone on it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's just R-80.
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MR. SCHWARTZ: R-80, so it's residential
zone then not agricultural.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's correct.
MR. SCHWARTZ: But it's permitted
agricultural --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: No, it's --
UNIDENTIFIED:
microphone.)
MR. SCHWARTZ:
finish, sir.
(Inaudible not at
Fine. If you would let me
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But you're asking a
rhetorical question. Would you ask that
question up here, Ben?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, I was.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we'll give
you certainly ample opportunity.
UNIDENTIFIED: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Were you asking
about the zoning? It is R-80, but
agricultural is permitted on that property.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Agricultural
production.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Thank you. I don't know
Mr. Edson and I have nothing personally
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against him and this is not
about the business; however,
is at issue in terms of the
about him, this is
his credibility
documents that he
submitted to you. I would just like to point
a couple of things from his history of Santa's
Christmas Tree Farm. He states, Kin 1979 my
father granted me permission to plant 3 acres
of Christmas trees." On his website is a
different history. ~The first plantings were
put in 1979 on approximately 30 acres of
farmland." There's a big difference between 3
acres of trees and 30 acres of trees, I think.
He also writes in the same history,
will go to my grave believing in Santa's
Christmas Tree Farm. The business I've run
and built for the past 24 years has been
legally operated and a valuable asset to the
town and its residents." Well, if he's coming
to this Board, I believe it looks like that
history was written in connection with his
application saying that he's going to go to
his grave believing that his business is
legal, then he's reviving the six-page
decision of the Supreme Court and
disrespecting your authority to make a
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decision, yes or no, and I respect your
authority and I believe that you will review
the record and I think the answer, conclusion
would be no, but let me enter a couple of
points.
The decision which came out in August of
2009 ordered business to stop. Well, it's
debatable whether that happened or not. There
was a cessation of sale of the manufactured
items on the premises, but the website I
believe has been online continuously and still
advertises that the business will be open 7
days a week 10-5 after Labor Day and 9 to 5
after Thanksgiving and, of course, there's the
after-Christmas sales. According to the
applicant's own website and advertising,
Santa's Christmas Tree Farm is ~the largest
Christmas Shop in the northeast." It's not a
farm stand.
Even if he sold millions of Christmas
trees, that still would not make that retail
operation a farm stand and how many fake trees
have been sold at that location? I've been
living in Cutchogue for 40 years. There are
things I would like to do with my property,
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but I haven't done them because the law says I
can't put buildings in certain locations, etc.
I recently did something, I got a permit
before I did it, not afterwards. If somebody
wanted to -- I'm not a big fan of Christmas,
okay. I am a bit of a Scrooge, I admit it,
but I'm part of the community and if someone
wants to rent a store in the Cutchogue hamlet
center or at the King Kullen Shopping Plaza
and put in Christmas items, I'll look at what
they got and I might even buy something. You
know, that's fine, it's legal, but I do not
believe, I have not believed, and I hope that,
you know, if this Board decides otherwise,
I'll have to accept that, but I don't believe
that this, you know, that a Christmas shop
belongs in that part of our neighborhood.
The fall and holiday traffic to and from
the store aggravates the dangers of an already
extremely dangerous intersection. Lives are
at stake. The claim that the store, if it was
operated as a farm stand, would not create an
undesirable change in the character of the
neighborhood because ~the building exists",
that's from the application we're here to
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consider, is an absurd claim. As as-built
application should receive stricter not lesser
scrutiny.
The ZBA should consider the change not
from the time the application is made and the
building was already built, but from the time
the building was built in 1986. Believe me,
the character of the neighborhood back then
was very different. I used to feel
comfortable bicycling on the roads. Well,
it's not -- this is not the fault of this
applicant, but the Main Road in the past year
or two has become more dangerous. I don't
know if this happened before his store stopped
or not, but if his store is going to start
again, the traffic issues in front of his
store on the Main Road are significantly
different than they've been for the past 20
years. The renovations of the Main Road
including a narrowing of
his store, addition of a
the east and west lanes,
the lanes in front of
third lane in between
and this has been an
area where it is customary for people heading
westbound to pass on the right and people
heading eastbound to pass on the left. Now,
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you've got a turning lane. So when they swing
wide to pass they're head on with the turning
lane.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ben, I want to --
just indulge me for one moment.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: I want to just get
a sense from the audience. How many here are
in the audience prepared to address this
application? Could I just see a show of
hands? I want to know how many more in the
interest of some time, to pace ourselves, I
just want to see how many other people we
have.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I just have a few more
notes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, if you would,
please, just wrap that up so we have time for
other people, too.
MR. SCHWARTZ: A diverting of store
traffic to Depot Lane would just cause a
different traffic nightmare. Depot Lane has
its own problems. In a neighborhood such as
the subject neighborhood with many elderly
drivers, the smart ones are afraid to leave
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their homes now. We don't want to make it any
worse.
I submit this application far from
proving entitlement to the store being
approved. It proves that the application does
not deserve to be approved.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just ask a
question?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You may, of course.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I appreciate your coming
today, Mr. Schwartz, but you know we're here
for just one specific thing and that is to
determine whether Mr. Edson's application
before us meets the definition of a farm stand
according to our code and your answer to that
is?
MR. SCHWARTZ: My answer to that is the
zoning of Southold Town and Cutchogue does not
include a retail store and while farm stands,
there are farm stands which sell manufactured
goods and items, they're incidental to the
primary business. There are four or five
other Christmas tree farms in town and I don't
know each one of them, but my impression is
that each one of them the Christmas trees are
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
their main item. In this case, I believe the
Christmas trees are an accessory item and the
manufactured goods.
The new farm stand law does talk about
Christmas trees as being agricultural,
bonafide agricultural operations. Maybe it
needs some refinements. When it was enacted
there was discussion that the required
percentage of locally grown thing might need
some refinements and maybe this is a test case
for that. I don't know, but the Christmas
trees and all the other things that are in
that law were put in there apparently the
legislative intent talked about the State
Agricultural Department said they should make
it very broad and be very inclusive, but a
farm stand should be on a farm and if there is
access to Depot Lane that would be more safe,
a little safer, even though it still wouldn't
be safe, I think the Town should have the
right to shape the business, but I just -- I
haven't had the opportunity to review all the
documents and all the legal issues, but I have
a very strong feeling that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll provide time
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
for that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I hope that you will keep
this hearing open and maybe we'll have some
more time.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We will consider
that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's see if there
is anyone else in the audience who wishes to
address this application, would you come
forward at this time, please?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd just like Mr. Edson
a answer the question while he's still up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on just one
second.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Mr. Edson, your property
is that considered a farm? Does it meet the
criteria of the town for a farm?
MR. EDSON: It does and I get the Ag
exemption.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Thank you.
MR. EDSON: Have for 20 years.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Come forward.
MS. VAN NAME: Hello, my name is Jean Van
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Name.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
please?
MS.
M-E.
VAN NAME:
Would you spell it,
It's V-A-N, capital N, A-
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. VAN NAME: My husband and I own the
property adjacent to Mr. Edson's Christmas
Tree Farm. We're just east and I think that
we are the neighbors that are most affected or
would be most affected by his business. Our
property faces his parking lot and the
business and I'd just like to say that I've
been living there since '92 and my family has
owned that property since 1945 and I've
observed all the changes. I see all the
traffic, which I don't see as a problem. He
did widen his driveway. Mr. Edson has always
been a good neighbor to us and any concerns
that we might have had about his property or
his business, he addresses right away, and I
don't have any problems, you know, being right
next to that Christmas Tree farm.
I think it's an asset to the community.
I like going there. I like bringing my
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
grandchildren there. I just want to say it's
a very magical place and I support Mr. Edson
in his application. I think he should be
granted the variance. The building is there,
I don't see any traffic problems and I live
right next to him and I see all the time the
traffic and I don't see any real problems with
it.
To make it short, I know we're running
out of time, but I just wanted to voice my
support of Mr. Edson in this matter. Thank
you.
C~{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: I do want to
clarify once again, we do not have a variance
before us. What we have is a proposal by Mr.
Edson to operate his business differently than
what he had been doing in the past in order to
create a farm stand, okay, according to the
Code as it is now written. There was a public
hearing on that particular proposed
legislation and that was on July 1, 2008, all
right, and what I think would be very
instructive to the audience and others who are
interested in this is to become conversant
with what that -- what the definitions
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
described in that Code are and I'm sure this
Board will be asking questions specifically
relevant to the description in that Code
because that is what we have to interpret
based on Mr. Edson's proposal to us.
So let's see what other people in the
audience have to say, you know, I think that's
the best way to continue if the Board wants to
do that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Let's keep going, yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Then we will have a
chance for you to respond and for us to ask
questions.
Is there someone else who'd like to make
a comment? Please come forward.
MS. ST]LHEL: My name is Barbara Stahel,
S-T-A-H-E-L. My husband and I live on Nassau
Point and I'm just referring to the fact that
I've been to some of the vineyards and if any
of you have shopped at Krupski's in the fall
and tried to get out with Pindar if you just
make a right, you don't make a left at that
time of year, and I'm happy to see these
people doing this business. You know, we've
lost so many shops in this area, so the fact
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that this would be a smaller space that he's
applying for and to me you've okayed the
vineyards that have these shops, I don't see
the difference. I think the farm is a very,
very positive thing for our village.
That's all I have to say.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else out there that would like to make
comments?
Okay, let's proceed then. Mr. Edson, if
you'd like to say something now, fine, or if
you'd like to answer questions from us.
MR. EDSON: Well, the only other item
that came to mind that I didn't bring up
before, there's -- I've inventoried the farm,
plus or minus, and there's approximately -- I
have information (inaudible) with me, about
22,000 trees under various stages of growth on
the farm and the annual sales run anywhere
from 1500-2000 trees a season. That will
probably stay the way it is because that's
maxed out the entire farm. So my point being
that the number of sales at sixty-some-odd
dollars per tree against the sales from a farm
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
stand store more than balance out the 60/40
requirement of the farm stand ordinance. I
just wanted to make that point.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: I'd like to ask you
a question in relationship to that point. The
farm stand Code suggests that 60 percent of
the sales of the crops that are produced
onsite be sold in the farm stand. Even with
~U-pick operations", you know the strawberries
or whatever, you know, they're grown out in
the field, the farm stand's on the premises,
but the strawberries are also sold in the farm
stand. Now what you're saying is that 60
percent of your sales will be from trees grown
on your property. I'm assuming, based on your
proposal, they are not being -- you're not
proposing to sell them in the building.
You're going to be selling them as you've done
from people picking them out in the field and
then baling them and so on, you know, along
the side of your property?
MR. EDSON: Well, I think what --
depending on what kind of crop any farm is
raising, depends on how a farm stand is going
to be used. As far as the stand is concerned,
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because of the weather, we also need to
provide a warm place for people to congregate,
which is the stand and why it's heated, and
all the trees when they're harvested come in
and get baled next to the building, but paid
for within the building. Do I bring the trees
into the building? No, I don't bring the
trees into the building, but I'm sure people
don't bring pumpkins into buildings either or
the corn or the raspberries, you know,
wherever farm stands exist. Go from one farm
stand to the next, I think it's hard to
suggest that if I have a farm stand on a
Christmas tree farm, which is specifically
talked about in the ordinance, I don't think
anybody expects the trees to be inside the
building by the nature of the product.
Strawberries can be outside, strawberries can
be inside.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
you're saying. Yeah,
I understand what
clearly if we had
strawberries the size of Christmas trees, they
wouldn't be brought into the farm stand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, certainly
pumpkins, you know, we have all the pumpkins
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(inaudible) set
MR. EDSON:
the same way.
outside.
I don't quite read the Code
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's talk about
floor area. You have approximately a 7,000-
square-foot building and you're proposing to
partition off 3,000, which is the maximum size
that the Code now suggests the farm stand
would be permitted to be. Section 280-72-4 of
the Code defines a farm stand as ~any primary
structure or portion thereof," all right, that
does not exceed 3000 square feet. Section 72-
6-2 defines total floor area of the farm stand
structure not to exceed 3000 square feet and
the floor area is defined as the "sum of the
gross horizontal areas of all floors of the
building or buildings on a lot" and that might
suggest that the farm stand structure is in
fact the entire building not just the area
dedicated to the portion of the sale of items
that you're describing.
Could you please address that?
MR. EDSON: Well, I think that that's the
reason I'm here, is for you to make that
decision. I interpret it on what I read
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before on page 2 under the definition of a
farm stand that it can be a portion of a
building. I recognize what you're pointing
out, doesn't talk about the portions, so I
guess that's why I'm here cause I guess that's
the way the Building Inspector sees it, too.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you a
question regarding that, Mr. Edson? Do you
have any other barns on the property?
MR. EDSON: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Do you store
any equipment in that present area of 7,000
square feet?
MR. EDSON: I don't, but I'm going to.
That's all going to be converted over into
equipment storage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So the remaining 4000
square feet will then become a barn-type
situation?
MR. EDSON: Yeah, yeah. There's a 14-
foot door on the back end of that building in
order to get equipment in and out.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: I have one question.
Mr. Edson how can you assure us that 60
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
percent of your operation is going to be tree
sales?
MR. EDSON: How can I assure you? All I
can say is I can keep an accounting. We can
keep it separate. What happens with the
Building Department is they issue a permit.
Well the ordinance talks about pulling that
permit if you don't comply. There's also
fines and penalties included in that. So the
Code Enforcement, you know, whatever he wants
from me to prove to him that I'm complying
within those guidelines I have no problem with
doing. It's easy enough, you know, to keep an
accounting. Keeping one register for one
thing, one register for another. Whatever,
you know, I'm trying to comply. I'm trying to
come within what the Town presently thinks I
should be doing and whatever that takes from a
reasonable standpoint, I'm willing to do.
I don't know how else to address that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there --
MR. EDSON: I'm not going to look for
more lawsuits.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I understand. Is
there any reason why the building you have
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now, you have sort of three rooms, basically.
You're proposing that the large very long
portion will become equipment storage and then
you have sort of front room and middle room.
Is there any reason why a fire wall can't be
put up rather leaving the doors that connect
all three together to wall-off the 3000 square
feet from the rest of the building?
MR. EDSON: We got a 14-foot ceiling in
that building. You could certainly run one 7-
feet high, which is basically what I have
proposed, but I also have a door proposed so
we can access storage back and forth, you
know, into that building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If you're storing
farm equipment back there and not any retail
merchandise, why would the farm stand portion
need to access farm equipment from that door?
MR. EDSON: Just for ease of operation.
I mean if you want a solid wall, I don't have
a problem with that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm just exploring
all of the questions that people might have in
their mind. I'm making no judgments at this
point. I'm simply looking at the Code and how
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we can --
MR. EDSON: Well, I can just visualize
from time to time if you're back here in the
storage area working on something and you need
to use the bathroom, you can go through a door
to get to the bathroom to get to the bathroom,
which is in the front end of the building.
As far as when things come in that belong
in the store, well, like when the greens come
in, we can keep the greens for making the
wreaths in the storage area and then bring
them forward through that door to add to the
wreath making area as the need becomes
apparent.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you think you
may be storing some greens in the part that
you're proposing to put farm equipment in?
MR. EDSON: You know, I'm --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm just asking.
MR. EDSON: I know you are, but to be
quite honest, until we get into the operation
of using that 3000 square feet, exactly how
it's going to be done, at this point --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You don't know.
MR. EDSON: -- is a guess.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~-N: Okay.
MR. EDSON: Cause it's going to be trial
and error.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: What about your
proposed hours of operation, would you be
operating seasonally and if so what hours?
MR. EDSON: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: I mean what time
frame?
MR. EDSON: We open -- we've always
opened right after Labor Day and the point of
opening that early, which is not really early
anymore if you start seeing the advertisements
in the papers, at that point they're already
starting to talk about Christmas, but we allow
people to come in in September and go in the
field and tag a tree. The type of customer
that is willing to go out in the cold of
December to cut a tree is pretty much the same
kind of person that comes out for pumpkins and
all of the grapes and so forth in the harvest
season.
So a lot of
vicinity, we let
those people are in the
them come onto the property,
get a tag, we provide tags. They go out in
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
the field, they keep the bottom half of the
tag, which is all numbered and then they come
back in January or December rather, November,
December to harvest their tree. We don't do a
lot of business in September. The real
business starts probably the middle part of
October when people start to feel the
Christmas spirit coming, but we like to be
open early to get those people exposed to the
farm and what they've got to look forward to
when they come back. We tell them we have
Santa, we've had reindeer, we've had chickens,
we've got a farm, you know, and it's all part
of selling those trees and we've got a couple
of thousand trees we try to sell every year.
You need that hook, that magnet to draw those
people back and for them to talk about it with
their friends.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would your
auxiliary sales be available after Labor Day
as well? Would the building be open with the
merchandise?
MR. EDSON: The merchandise is -- yes,
but it's pretty well set up by the end of
September I would say. It's a -- it's just
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
basically exposure. There are some sales, but
not very much. It's there to create the
interest to pull the people back and get the
trees. The trees are where the business is.
It's not in the ornaments.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a question. If
I went to your farm today, could I purchase a
tree?
MR. EDSON: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, when do you
start --
MR. EDSON: I'm not there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
MR. EDSON: You know, if you wanted to
come -- the only time I get that kind of a
request is if somebody wants landscaping stuff
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. EDSON: -- and they'll knock on the
door of the house. There's a sign on the
building that says we're closed. The sign
says, "We'll see you after Labor Day," but
those people who really need trees for
landscaping will knock on my door and, in
certain instances we'll sell those to them,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
though, to be quite honest, in the last five
years I don't think I have sold one, but if
you asked me would I and if you showed up
under those circumstances and at this point
cause I don't have the equipment to do trees.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, you don't?
MR. EDSON: So the landscapers or anybody
previously who have bought trees from me in
the spring have brought their own diggers in.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Do you sell -- oh, so
then you don't offer the balled Christmas
trees?
MR. EDSON: We dig maybe 15 or 20 4-
footers that are handlable.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. EDSON: You get a -- you start
digging a tree that's 6-7 feet and the ball
that's required is more than most house owners
can handle.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, I'd like to get
back to why you're here, if you don't mind,
because why you're here really is just one
section of the Code in definitions it's 72-4
and for whatever reason the Building Inspector
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
didn't mention 280, which is the other part of
the Code that discusses definitions of farm
stands. So, you know, when I first read the
Notice of Disapproval I kind of wondered just
why you were here if what your application
states is true that you want to set aside a
portion of your building, 3000 square feet,
which is the maximum for a farm stand and I
haven't heard you say anything to the
contrary, so I'm assuming that that's what
your intentions are to have a farm stand
there.
Now, I guess -- I know that the Town
Board, cause we do have a letter somewhere
from the Supervisor, didn't really consider
your particular operation when they did the
Code. They didn't, you know, they put
Christmas trees in here and they put trees in
here, but they didn't, you know, specify, you
know, the fact that your product is in a field
and that's where it's going to be. It's not
harvested like potatoes, put in bags, and put
on a farm stand. It's not broccoli, it's not
lettuce, it's not -- well, it's closer to
pumpkins, I suppose, it's something that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
kind of difficult to harvest and you send the
people out and they do their thing and you
bring them in on a wheelbarrow and, you're
right, they probably never come inside. You
just count them up, weight them, or whatever
and the cash register has to be in a dry
place. It's simple as that.
So I guess I have no trouble at all with,
you know, if we're going to use the definition
under 72-2 what Mr. Edson is asking for is
truly a farm stand. Now, I've heard some
people question as to whether or not you would
comply to that after you got it and maybe we
could get some assurances that way, but you
meet the definition of a farm. You have more
than 10 acres. I don't understand that, I
mean it says at the bottom of it, ~The
proposed use does not meet the definition of a
farm stand," and everything that you require -
- everything that you've applied in your
application says to the contrary. So I think
that our Board needs to have a discussion as
to whether or not either we're interpreting
this or whether we're just saying to the
Building Inspector, no, this meets the
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definition of a farm stand and I think that
this application under this disapproval is as
simple as that.
That's pretty much all I have. I haven't
heard anything to the contrary, so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There are two
things that happened recently. We received,
including yourself, Mr. Edson, comments from
the Planning Board Director, the Planning
Department Director, which this Board got that
the same day you did, yesterday, and you've
just written and handed to Vicki a reply,
which none of us have had an opportunity to
review, and I think we obviously must do that.
In addition, I would like to request
comments from the Agricultural Advisory
Committee with -- you know, on your proposal.
They were deeply involved in the crafting of
this legislation, originally, and I will
certainly be requesting in writing from them
comments to be submitted to us and to give us
an opportunity to get their comments and to
review your comments that you've just
submitted in reply to Planning Department, I
would like to propose that we hold this
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
hearing open in order to be able to take all
that information in, give you ample
opportunity and us opportunity to review
everything, and then come back and see if
there are additional questions or comments or
submissions that you might have.
So if there are no other -- any other
comments anyone in the audience would like to
make?
Any comments or questions this Board --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just a quick question.
When was this photograph taken?
MR. EDSON: '08.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: '08, okay.
MR. EDSON:
one comment? I
headed. You're
Could I leave you with just
think I know where you're
talking about the new code
coming in in 2008 and not having a discussion
about the kind of operation that goes along
with what I do, contemplated when they made
that ordinance. I find that unbelievably hard
to understand where this business that I've
got that is so well-known, that's been around
for so long, and been contentious to some
people, for that not to be addressed when
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you're making a new ordinance is hard for me
to understand. So I think it was and when I
heard the comment about the New York State
Agricultural Department or whatever it's
called saying that you've got to leave it
loose, I think was the words Mr. Schwarz used,
I can understand that, but if the Board had
felt that what I was doing was so contentious
that was their opportunity to draw up a new
ordinance knowing I
years, that was the
I could do and what
had been in business 22
time to really define what
I couldn't do, and they
didn't.
it up to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that the past is the past.
They just lumped it all in and left
Well, I suspect
You know, you went
through a court case relative to your zoning
and the operation of a retail business.
That's done. Okay, and what we are looking at
now is how your operations going forward will
comply with farm stand code and that's really
what's before us and --
MR. EDSON: Just one slight correction to
what you just said, it is not over with
because the appeal process is still going.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. EDSON: And however that turns out,
I'm willing to just stop, I'm done. We'll
just work it, you know, from this standpoint.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Understood. So
unless there are any other comments, I'm going
to make a motion to adjourn this hearing
subject to comments from the Agricultural
Advisory Committee and the review of the
letter that you have submitted to us.
MR. EDSON: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That we have not
had an opportunity to look at, yet.
MR. EDSON: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And we can hold
this open also to receive other information
from any other interested party.
MR. EDSON: Yeah, most of that is going
to be on the 60/40 questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And that date --
when do we want
on May? We got
MR. EDSON:
to do that? Can we fit it in
a lot of carryovers.
Late in the day in May.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Late in the day on
May 20. Do we have room on the May 20tn
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calendar is the question. We just adjourned
two of them, what do we have for May?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Put it on for June,
if DeNicolo does not continue, we'll put it
back to May.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's a
possibility. Yeah, what we'll do is we'll put
it on for June and then if we can bring it
forward because of the possibility of someone
else withdrawing on that meeting, we'll move
it to May.
MR. EDSON: Okay. I'll get a letter --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
MR. EDSON: Okay, thank you, all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have to adjourn
it for a specific date in June. What is the
date of the June hearing date? We have it for
Wednesday, June 30tn, I bet we couldn't get
this room.
So we will adjourn this to 1:00 on
Wednesday, June 30. Okay?
MR. EDSON: Yup. Yup, thank you very
much.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'll make that as a
motion, do we have a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6364 - Linda Hill
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for Variance from Code Section
230-15, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's December
1, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
accessory shed, 1) location of accessory shed
in the side yard rather than code required
rear yard, at 3190 Haywaters Rd., Cutchogue,
NY. CTM#: 111-11-13."
MR. HILL: Good afternoon.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good afternoon.
MR. HILL: My name is Steven Hill and I'm
representing my wife who is the titled owner
of the property.
As a bit of background our property is in
Nassau Point, and it's very irregularly
shaped. It's very wide and very, very narrow.
The backyard is very small. Before we bought
this house in April of '08, this Board granted
a variance for the swimming, which was built
in the side yard and, at that time, you also
noted that the property was very deeply
sloped.
So we want to build a storage shed
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
because the garage is very small and it's
rally a joke but because that house when the
property was built it barely holds two cars
and so we have grandchildren that come visit
us every single weekend and we've got 10
bicycles and boat stuff and there's no way to
keep the cars in the garage and be on the
property. So we investigated building a shed
and the locations on the site were difficult
to find in the little bit of land that's left
in the back yard. There's a 4-foot retaining
wall and when you try to get the size shed we
want, you, because of topography, you can't
get within 10 feet of the property line and
get the shed in at the same time, it doesn't
work in the back yard, but it does work in the
side yard.
So we picked a location which is in a
densely wooded section of our side yard. We
spotted a location which is roughly 50 feet
off the road and beginning 10 feet off our
property line. As a matter of structure,
we're concerned as aesthetics. I didn't want
to go to Shed Land and buy something that was
incongruous with the rest of my site. So we
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
went to a manufacturer who is going to custom
make a shed, which is made out of cedar siding
and a split cedar roof so that the shed will
be stained so it'll match my main dwelling and
that's why I'm here today.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You know, upon review
of the survey I can see that's the only --
it's the best location for your shed and I
think the same reasoning will apply that was
granted to the pool that may apply to the
shed; I'm speaking for myself.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. HILL: And incidentally, where it's
located we have a gate, which will enable the
kids to get their bikes in and out and be
parked right off the street in doing so since
it's several hundred feet away from where our
garage is.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Um-hmm. Will there be
any electric to that shed?
MR. HILL: We have some electricity down
in that area. So I think I want to put a
light on the outside of the door and a light
on the inside.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
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MR. HILL: No heating and air
conditioning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The bikes don't
need it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No HVAC, huh?
MR. HILL: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I can see, Mr. Hill,
think you were
MR. HILL:
time.
your property is just as gorgeous as it was
the day you walked in here for the variance
for the -- actually the builder did that, I
in contract at the time.
I was in the hospital at the
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, were you in the
hospital? Oh, that's right it was your wife
and the builder at the time and I have no
objection to your application.
MR. HILL: Oh, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Neither do I. It's
-- there is really no conforming rear yard
location in that rear property. There's a
septic tank there, septic system there, a
retaining wall. It's an oddly-shaped lot and
it will have no visual impact. It won't be
seen from the road because of the slope of the
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property.
MR. HILL: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
no objection.
MR. HILL:
picked the shed,
So I certainly have
And just to reiterate, I
you have pictures of it in
the application, which would be harmonious and
not one of these, you know, thousand dollar
kind of (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any questions,
George?
Anyone in the audience wish to speak in
favor or in opposition?
MS. COURTIEN: Thank you. My name is
Joanne Courtien, C-O-U-R-T-I-E-N. My husband
and I are the property owners at 3300
Haywaters, which is the property right next
door to the Hills. Before I make my comments
to this regarding this, I would just like to
give a little history. Although we are there
even a little bit less than the Hills, we have
been vacationing on the north fork for over 25
years with family and one of the things we
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love about it is the commitment by the Town to
keep the quality of living the way it is here.
We bought this home as a vacation home for now
with the intent to retire here and we also
thought it was important enough to be here
today that we both took off from work and did
not just submit a written statement.
Last summer -- our deck is in the front
of the house, and our house is set back
further than the Hills' home, and last summer
I believe it was around the 4th of July we came
out and there was now what I believe is
mechanical equipment for their pool on their
side of the landscaping closer to our
property. So it was landscaped on their side
and it was -- there was nothing on our side.
So now when we sit on our deck our beautiful
wooded view now includes mechanical equipment
and the hum of that mechanical equipment on an
ongoing basis. So we waited because they were
still doing work and at the end of the summer
I went over and I spoke to Mrs. Hill and I
asked if they could please landscape on our
side of it as well as on their side so that
our quality of life would be as nice as theirs
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
and she assured me -- she apologized, she
assured me that they, you know, wanted to be
good neighbors and I shouldn't worry about it.
Several weeks went by, we were out a few
more times, and there was still nothing and
then I received a phone call from Mr. Hill
saying that their landscaper suggested that
they put a stockade fence around it because
nothing would grow there. In the effort to be
good neighbors, we acquiesced and we said
okay, you know, at least we won't have to look
at it and it would be shielded.
Now we get this request to put a shed
right by our property right in, you know, our
view again, not their view. I don't know -- I
know you're looking at the survey, I looked at
the survey that was sent to me. I felt that
there were other places that it could be in
their rear yard. I hear you're talking about
other things that, you know, maybe I don't
understand about a survey, but, you know, all
things considered, we would really request
that this be denied and that another place be
found for the shed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Do you want to --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Maybe Ken wants to
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
equipment --
MS. COURTIEN: I
You said that the pool
don't if it's the pool
equipment, it's mechanical equipment.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is for the pool
and it's not on the survey.
MS. COURTIEN: It's not on the survey.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not on the
survey. It's between that round brick
(inaudible) --
MS. COURTIEN: Right and the proposed
shed.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And this --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, I have a survey
here that says, ~concrete pads for pool
equipment."
MS. COURTIEN: No, it's the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, wait --
MEMBER SCHIqEIDER: Right by the brick
patio that --
MS. COURTIEN: That's not where it is.
MR. HILL: You know what, that was an old
survey and on the --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please come up to
the mike.
MR. HILL: Yeah, when the surveyor did
the spotting for the shed, he didn't notice
that the pool equipment -- we put a hot tub
in, which was part of the building permit we
were granted, and so the equipment for the hot
tub had to be located someplace (inaudible).
So the pool equipment that shows on that
survey was relocated about 50 feet and so we
did, when Mrs. Courtien called us, we did
contact our landscaper. It's basically
wooded, I mean really densely wooded so
nothing green would grow. So we did go out
and we put up an 8-foot high stockade fence,
which screens the whole pool equipment. I
don't think they could see it. They could see
the fence and I explained that afterwards I
would consider putting some ivy to get
(inaudible) over the fence, but that's the
most we can do.
Then with respect to the location of the
shed, I've walked all over the property and
the place where it is is the most innocuous
place that I could find because in the
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backyard there is no place.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I see a photograph
here of the stockade fence. I think that's
where the pool equipment is or -- is it pool
equipment or hot tub equipment?
MR. HILL: Both.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And that looks like it
must be a lot of equipment in there.
MR. HILL: There's two heaters and
there's two filters.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Okay.
Can I just say this
to you? It was very ironic when this
application came in, I never forget a thing,
except occasionally where I lay my hammer when
I'm working on something, okay, but this was
the most interesting application that we had
because this builder promised us that this
equipment was going to be below ground, okay,
and that it was not going to cause any noise
and I realize that this is not the nature of
this application, okay, and we took him at his
word, okay, that that was going to be the
case.
Now, I realize you've added additional
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equipment and I understand that you've tried
to screen it to the best of your ability, but
that's the last time I ever take a builder at
his word. That's absolutely ridiculous and
you'll read it in the transcript, if you see
it.
MS. COURTIEN: If I may, I find it hard
to understand why shrubs will grow 10 feet
away from where the landscaper is saying they
won't grow.
MR. HILL: You know what, because I'm a
sport, if you find me a landscaper that'll
plant shrubs and guarantee them for three
years, I'll pay for it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, now here's the
problem. Okay, we have a significant amount
of -- I'm not a horticulturist, I'm not in any
way anything like that. The acidity of the
oak leaves attacks most everything. It
appears that the only thing that will live is
Leland Cypress because the deer won't eat it
usually, okay, and the deer can jump over this
fence like they just shoot like this, okay,
but in truth, in general, okay, and I don't
mean to be redundant, probably the only thing
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that will grow around it is Leland Cypress and
that has to be irrigated, particularly the
first year, significantly irrigated and that's
the problem.
MEMBER HORNING: May I ask you a
question, too, in relation to the stockade
fence and the color of it? Where is, roughly,
where is the proposed shed?
MR. HILL: May I come up?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let's look at it
right now and get an idea where you think it
is, Mr. Hill.
All right, right there. Just an
that's good.
MEMBER HORNING:
photo?
MR. HILL: Well,
behind the fence.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. HILL: This
MEMBER HOR/qING:
And in relation to the
the pool equipment is
Right.
is the yellow space.
Yeah.
MR. HILL: There's the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Purple shed.
MR. HILL: This is part of the shed,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that's the other side of the shed.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I guess from this
very nice lady's point of view, couldn't the
shed be placed somewhere in or around the pool
equipment?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MR. HILL: (Inaudible). (NOT AT MIKE)
Slope like that and I really don't want to
take down any (inaudible) trees.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, you need to
go back to the mike just because we're
recording, Mr. Hill.
MS. COURTIEN: So are there no trees
going to be taken down for this site?
MR. HILL: There's one tree that's about
-- structurally that's about 3 inches in
diameter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The caliber --
MR. HILL: Yeah, like that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me ask you
something, Mr. Hill, is it possible to move
your proposed location just slightly closer
toward the pool equipment to give them
somewhat bigger buffer and to put some
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
landscaping along that edge between your two
properties to provide some visual screening?
MR. HILL: The answer is the shed is
right up along side a tree which is about 12
or 14-inches in diameter, two trees.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HILL: So I didn't want to take those
trees down to move it further up the hill.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HILL: And if I move it further down
the hill, more trees would have to get taken
down.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Where it is located
as proposed, one second, excuse me, in that
10-foot conforming setback, it is a conforming
setback, can you locate some additional
evergreen screening in that 10-foot space so
that their view is shielded from --
MR. HILL: If the issue is the screening
for the pool equipment, if in fact you could
get a landscaper who will guarantee that
Leland Cypress or anything else will guarantee
it for three years, I'll put it in. I didn't
want to go out and spend $1500.00 on a fence.
I would much rather have something green, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
my landscaper who, by the way, I spent
$100,000.00 with last year, he said that
nothing would grow on there because it's dense
forest and anything he plants is going to turn
leggy and eventually (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think the
pool equipment is -- I think that's sort of a
past issue. You've done the fence. I think
the concern now is adding the shed and whether
or not they'll be looking at that shed or if
there's something that could be done to
mediate the visual impact of the shed close to
their property.
Is that a correct summary, Miss?
MS. COURTIEN: Well, you know, what we
don't want is not to have the shed there. I
just feel like it's, you know, becoming more
and more densely -- his property is becoming
more and more densely populated with, you
know, structures and things and I guess my
question is before we assume that that's the
only place for it, maybe you can explain to
me, I know you talked about cesspools, but it
just seems to be there's a large area in the
northwest corner of the backyard property
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that's unoccupied by anything and I don't
understand why, if the original code is that
sheds need to be in the rear yard, why that
wouldn't be an acceptable area.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you like to
address that?
MR. HILL: Yeah, you have to go look at
it to see. If you go 10 feet away there's
fence running on both sides of the property
line.
MS. COURTIEN: Right, I know that.
MR. HILL: If you go 10 feet off each
corner and then you look at where we've got a
4-foot retaining wall that runs along, there's
no room for the shed. There's a tremendous
rise from where our bedroom level is to where
the top of that corner is. There's a rise of
over 4 feet and, by the way, there's also a
couple of 18-inch wide trees in there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, number one, I
think we need an updated survey and I also
probably need a little more time to look at
the survey we based our decision on cause I
know that this Board does take into
consideration the noise coming from the pool.
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I'm looking at this thing was updated in
January 29th, and our decision back then was
based on the January 29tn updated survey,
January 29, 2008.
I mean I'd like to see that. If that's
what we did, I'd like to see that survey and
if that equipment is where it's supposed to be
I think that maybe you have a problem there.
Number two, I mean you know the shed just
seems to be pushed to the outside of your
property, sir, and --
MR. HILL: What do you mean the outside?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it just seems to
be pushed way over to the corner that's
furthest away from your house that you can
possibly be and, you know, you've asked for --
you've gotten quite a lot already on this lot
and I'm just wondering if, you know, maybe you
couldn't be a little more accommodating in
placing this shed --
MR. HILL: I'm not following what you're
saying. If I could put the shed in the
northwest corner and avoided coming here
today, I would have done it, but between the
slope and the trees that are in that corner,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
it wasn't feasible in my judgment. Now, if
you're talking about putting the shed on the
- where it is now, it's on the south side of
my property. If you want it closer to the
street on the south side, it's just a matter
of taking down a few more trees, I don't think
it would do anything. I don't think it's a
matter of being accommodating.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, again, you know,
it's just a shed.
MR. HILL: It is just a shed, but you
have to be able to get in and get out of it
and it has to serve a purpose.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I do agree with that
and, you know, I think that can be placed, a
shed can be placed just about anywhere.
MR. HILL: You know, I'm --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It can be placed on the
back of your house, if you want to put it on
the back of your house.
MR. HILL: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's leveled and it
looks like you've terraced this place quite
well, you could terrace a little more.
MR. HILL: I don't agree with you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO:
know --
MR. HILL: If you want
the site --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
know this lot very well.
Okay. I'm just, you
to come down to
have been there and I
MR. HILL: And I don't think you're
speaking with authority if you say that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me go back and
take a look at it and we'll reconvene the
hearing, that's my suggestion, Leslie. I'm
not -- I'm just one member.
MR. HILL: I'll be very happy to get you
a survey that shows where the pool equipment
is because that's the only thing that's
changed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And distances from
the property line would be nice, so that we
know where we are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I assume that
you're together? Okay, did you wish to make
any additional comments?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'd just like to ask
you the question which property is theirs so
we can indicate it on my tax map.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MS. COURTIEN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
street addresses on it,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
property.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
number?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
number, Ken?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
number --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
It's 3300, we're to the--
This doesn't have
if you could just like
They're to the south.
Okay, that's their
Can you give it a lot
What's the lot
The lot number is
12.
Number 12.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 12, okay. Well,
this site has -- is really quite an unusual
site in terms of not only the shape, but
incredible slope and so on and clearly both of
you have a common goal that you don't want to
lose any more of the woodland and that sort of
feel and atmosphere, and I think that's
environmentally responsible and visually
certainly a good idea.
So the question would be let's find out
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
where the pool equipment is, which isn't on
the survey, let you think about it a little
bit more, you think about it a little bit more
maybe you want to talk to a landscaper about
screening, you could talk to a landscaper
about screening, and the rest of the --
MR. HILL: Yeah, I did because I would
have been happier --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: To do it.
MR. HILL: -- to put up trees than put up
a wooden fence.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you got
something in writing from your landscaper to
indicate that it would be not feasible to
plant, that it would be able to be sustained?
MR. HILL: Sure. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can have that in
writing. Let the Board perhaps go out to the
site again and have another look and see if
there are potentially alternatives and we'll
come back and discuss it further.
Meanwhile, perhaps you might want to
speak informally to each other and see if you
can find some agreeable solution. It's always
better, I think, as neighbors to work that out
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
rather than us having to do it for you and
we'll just --
MR. HILL: Well, until right now, I
didn't know we had an issue, so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why we have
these hearings. You don't know, you think oh,
simple matter and it's sometimes what's simple
to one person isn't simple to somebody else
and that is why we make these to let the
public know about proposals and so on.
So when can we do -- when is the next
most reasonable time to do this? I guess May?
We could put it on for April, if we're
trying to do it quickly. God only knows --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I think we should put
it on for May.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think maybe we
better do May because we've got April so, so
full. We could do it at 2:30, May 20tn at
2:30. Okay.
MS. COURTIEN: That's a Thursday again.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah --
MS. COURTIEN: No, that's fine. My
daughter graduates from college that weekend.
That's okay, we'll leave here and go there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, all right,
let me just say you can always submit
something in writing and maybe it'll all be
fixed by then.
Adjourn to May 20th at 2:30. Okay and
we're going to get some information about the
possibility of some landscaping, we're going
to get a survey that shows where the pool
equipment is.
MS. COURTIEN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome.
MR. HILL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any other questions
or comments from anyone?
Okay, make a motion to close the hearing
-- sorry, to adjourn the hearing to May 20tn at
2:30 for the purpose of receiving additional
information.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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183
ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6365 Peter and
Stephanie Cosola
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variances from Code Sections
280-116B, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's December
4, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed additions and alteration to a single
family dwelling, at less than the code
required setback from bulkhead of 75 feet, at
2880 Minnehaha Blvd., Southold, NY. CTM: 87-
3-43."
MEMBER DINIZIO: The proposed setback, I
guess, is 64 feet and, Pat, I'll let you go.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. Good
afternoon.
Mr. and Mrs. Cosola wanted to be here,
they're actually travelling to Italy tonight
so we didn't want to postpone the hearing, but
if we need to have them here, you know, I'll
get them back the next available date.
This is an improved property. There is
an existing house with a patio in the back.
The property is in -- is in Laughing Waters.
As you know, from Laughng Waters, I had
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
provided to you in the big packet that I
submitted with the Appeal, you've granted
many, many variances in Laughing Waters, it's
a nonconforming area. These are bulkheads
that have been built a very long time ago and
the houses were, I think, many of them were
built in the 30s through the 70s. This house
is in pretty good condition. It is on a
double sized lot. Most of the lots here were
60 by 150 or so, depending on how far the
bulkhead went.
120, 60 and 60,
the other.
What prompted this application is
This parcel is a double, it's
120 by 164 on one side, 187 on
the
neighbor, Sweeney, that is right to the east
of this property has a wonderful screened-in
porch. You granted a variance for that
application. I'm familiar with the Sweeney
application cause I actually had to do the
variance for -- with the DEC since the Sweeney
property had the setbacks of 25 feet to their
bulkhead. So it was an extensive ZBA --
excuse me, DEC variance application. I had a
lot of information, which I provided to you,
which I ended up gathering for Sweeney for the
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DEC.
This, when I asked the client to know --
this project really starts with the screened-
in porch; they really want that screened-in
porch. The addition was, since the screened-
in porch was going to be built, to try to
provide the living space for the house it's a
relatively small house. It's a ranch house,
only 1648 square feet of living space in the
house. The new addition, the living space is
1614 square feet. The screened-in porch is
437 square feet. Ail in all, it is less than
the 20-percent lot coverage. So we're
conforming with the lot coverage. We also
maintain conformity with side yard setbacks.
We're maintaining, the minimum would be 15,
they've got 16.
So that because of the placement of the
house that is somewhat on a diagonal and not
parallel to the water, the corner of the
addition, the proposed addition, pushes the
setback closer to the bulkhead, but what I did
is, to give you an idea of the setbacks of the
area, I got a tax map and I put on it my
previous information provided to you as far as
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
setbacks to the bulkhead and this property and
the property just to the south, its on the
west, when you're looking at the survey it's
on the left side of the survey. The survey
shows it as (Inaudible) the owner there.
Their property is very similarly developed as
our property and they also have like a roofed-
over addition that pushes towards the water.
It's almost a reverse of what we have and I
was able to get a survey very last moment and
I had it blown up. It's about the same
distance as what we're proposing. So I had to
-- (inaudible) my (inaudible) of the adjacent
piece, which is lot 44.1, the Prado Property.
I had to do it originally with scaling and a
Google map, so it's a +/-64 and I found a very
old survey, which is not very good, but it's
pretty close, it's in that name. So I'm
providing it to you, I just couldn't get
better --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: So what I've handed to you
is the tax map. It shows all of the setbacks
to the bulkhead that have been -- these
measurements have been collected through the
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Building Department records and to the extent
that the surveyors put the information on in
prior variances.
So you can see that there are only two
properties that are oversize, that's my
client's property and the Prado property and
both properties are going to be similarly
developed. Mine is proposed and the Prado
property is actually developed. You can see
from the Prado survey, as I pointed out, it's
a reverse of what we're proposing with the
addition, whenever it was done by Prado, on
the south side rather than ours, which is on
the north side.
This -- my clients purchased the property
from, I believe Mr. Beige, and Mr. Beige had
gotten the permits to build a second story for
this house. When my client checked the
footings of this house, the footings only go
down two feet. It would not support a second
story. So there really is -- the second floor
option is really not viable. It would
require, I asked my client, and he would be
able to testify and if you'd like it as an
affidavit I would, but I would testify that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you know,
MRS.
yes.
what he explained is when he exposed the
footings it's only 2 feet down and that the
only way to put an addition here would be a
real demo and reconstruction and that is
really not something that they can financially
really accomplish nor would they want to. The
house is adequate for their needs as a ranch
and they'd like to keep it as a ranch, with
just this small addition, and as I pointed out
the Sweeneys have the screened porch that kind
of prompted this and the use of the screened
porch is really kind of their -- it's the
entire focus of this project.
I think everything else has already been
submitted to you in writing and it's late. So
unless you have particular questions, I'll
defer to your questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think I understand it.
Probably the crux of your argument is that,
you want a single story --
MOORE: (Inaudible) single story,
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's because of the
argument you want a single story, you know,
you need a little more room.
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189
MEMBER DINIZIO:
beautiful view. So I
sit out there.
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah. It has a
think you would want to
It is wonderful, yes. Yes.
Oh, by the way, there is a shed there
that is existing. He's willing to relocate
it. That's not a problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. I don't have any
further questions. It's pretty
straightforward.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Actually, I
wondered, it's not noted here, do you know
what the current setback from the bulkhead is?
MRS. MOORE: For the existing house?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: From the old survey, I think
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MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And the screened porch
is a real --
MRS. MOORE: Real crucial -- yes, very
important. So please when you're considering
it, when you start tinkering with alternate
relief, please, the screened porch is the part
of this application --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
I gave you a copy of the survey that had the
building permit. It was --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Maybe.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The '03 survey?
MRS. MOORE: Pardon me? Yeah,
(inaudible) like this.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh no, I don't have
that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, so (inaudible) the
measurements --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not telling
you?
MRS. MOORE: Well it only gives me the
proposed (inaudible) feet on an addition
(inaudible) parallel.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. It's on a
diagonal.
MRS. MOORE: It's on a diagonal
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: But it would have
been a conforming setback.
MRS. MOORE: Uh, non -- well (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
sure.
MRS. MOORE: Right,
82 feet would be,
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I'm thinking 100. 75
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
is, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
gone on.
MRS. MOORE:
floor addition --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that survey there?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
feet.
MRS. MOORE:
September 2003.
Yeah, if it had
It would have been a second
What's the date of
(Inaudible) is 82
Yeah, it was last revised
So it was part of the
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measurements, he gave us the calculations.
Lot coverage 18.3 percent.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh yeah, that's
right. I did look at that once before.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, the exact
It's on your current
surveyor provided that.
survey.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
application that they submitted.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And because of the
double lot situation, you do not have a lot
coverage issue, right?
MRS. MOORE: No. We can -- yes, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that portion of it
that's toward the northeast is very simply a
deck where it says, "proposed screen porch"?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I don't know if I
know what -- there is a patio, are you talking
about the existing patio?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the existing
patio, but this portion here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's bedrooms.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: These are bedrooms,
this is an addition to the house?
MRS. MOORE: Oh yes. That would be --
that is actually you have the plans in your
packet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think they
(inaudible). (Not at mike.)
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That wing right over
there.
MRS. MOORE: It is a wing, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, okay.
MRS. MOORE: It (inaudible) master
bedroom, the bathroom laundry, (inaudible)
and then the kids' bedrooms are -- one is an
existing bedroom and then the other is a --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
it's a (inaudible) room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
didn't remember that,
MRS. MOORE: No,
I don't know why I
I apologize --
it's all right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- when
and looked at it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well,
I went out
you know, the
house is a lot smaller than most of the houses
on either side or even across the street and
certainly your expansion is in keeping with
the character of the neighborhood and the
house is in very good condition. It's on a
oddly-shaped lot and it's sort of just a fill-
in merely to -- a wraparound fill-in where the
brick patio is. The property is extremely
flat. There isn't any slope towards the
bulkhead, so that's helpful, even (inaudible)
it's hardly a bulkhead. A couple of rotted
planks really.
MRS. MOORE: Oh no. It's a seawall.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a cement
seawall, but what they're noting as a bulkhead
is the --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, to the -- yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right is already in
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
from my client
Would you like
testimony --
the wetlands.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it -- yeah. The DEC,
I'm considering the seawall as the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: As the setback?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, cause there's
a whole lot of marsh in between.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. Any
other questions?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER MORNING: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Unless you have
questions in the audience?
Hearing no further comments, I'm going to
make a motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision to a later date. Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
MRS. MOORE: Did you need an affidavit
regarding the 2-foot footings?
that or would you take my
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that would be --
that would be nice for the record because I
intended to write it in the decision.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Oh fine.
for you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
going to --
MRS. MOORE: Fine,
affidavit.
I will get that
Ail right, then I'm
just subject to the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- amend the motion
subject to receipt of affidavit.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And I'll amend the
second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
HEARING #6355 - Joseph and Rita DeNicolo
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I make a motion to
reopen the hearing that we heard this morning,
DeNicolo --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- in order to
accept testimony regarding the foundation.
Jerry has seconded it.
All in favor?
COLLECTIVE: Aye.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Rob.
MR. HERRMANN: Rob Herrmann, again, of En
Consultants. First of all, let me thank you
for reopening this. Part of the purpose, of
course, is with the hope perhaps that we could
avoid adding this to your May agenda.
Secondly, let me say that aside from the fact,
as Leslie had pointed out, we got a bit
sidetracked this morning with a spirited
discussion over the merits of the law that
bring this application into the room in the
first place, as opposed to focusing on the
merits of the application that are hopefully
supposed to get me out.
I think a fundamental flaw in my
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presentation to you this morning, and I
apologize for this, is that I was perceiving
incorrectly apparently that really the scope
of your review on this application was
effectively limited to the in-place
reconstruction and raising of this 20x20
section and deck that protrudes into the
required 75-setback from the bulkhead. I was
probably perceiving it this way because that's
the design I've been operating under for about
18 months, is that this section was separate
from the rest of the house and that they could
have gotten a permit to do all the other work
anyway and so it was just really this one
section that we were talking about, but I
understand, after having some time to consider
it, that your Board is really and rightly so
viewing the project in its entirety as the
demolition of a pre-existing nonconforming
house and the construction of a new house that
would still be maintaining that nonconforming
setback.
I just say this again, not to harp back
on Jerry's comment, but I think it was because
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
of this disconnect that I probably seemed
confused and somehow offended or something by
George's question about the condition of the
foundation because I was trying to figure out
what the condition of that foundation or the
way in which this section of house would be
raised was relevant to any different impact
that the project would have on the bulkhead
setback, but I think after hearing everyone's
comments, including Ken's, at the end and
having some time this morning to absorb what
you were saying and have it register, I
realized, and correct me if I'm wrong, that I
think what the Board is telling me is that
your inclination to grant this relief likely
varies on one of two conditions. Are we
really in fact able to reuse and modify or
heighten this foundation, which would of
course have the benefit of not creating all
the site disturbance that Ken mentioned that
would be associated with excavating out the
foundation and pouring a new foundation versus
the idea that we had to scrap everything on
the lot including the foundation. In which
case, at that point, we're affectively
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
bringing this lot back almost to a virgin
vacant state and, at that point, you were
saying, as I think Jim was, what is the
hardship at that point of correcting the
nonconforming setbacks because if you're
starting with a vacant lot, in effect, you
have the ability to do that.
So in response to those specific
questions, and I also apologize because I
really should have had the architect here, but
again I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't --
my take on this one wasn't right from the
start, and I wish I had found these photos
this morning because when George was asking,
you know, was this 20x20 section slab, (NOT AT
MIKE) if I had just managed to fumble my way
to the right part of the file, you will see
that clearly that section of the house is not
on a slab. It is on an already raised
foundation that does, in fact, house the
basement. I conferred with the architect who
verified that the entire foundation is a full
foundation. There is a basement underneath
the entire house, which Leslie mentioned she
wouldn't know because we didn't submit a
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foundation plan. So I think that's up to
apology number 3.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But, of course, if
you walked to the most westerly side of the
house you would see that there was a basement
under that section of it, if I'm not mistaken?
MR. HERRMANN: Yeah, if you -- as I said,
and again, I sort of froze up in the
conversation because I was going on this track
and ended up on this track, but, yeah, I mean
even my own recollection of the house is that
it's on a full foundation. I think maybe what
George was referring to and, unfortunately,
now he's not here, but in the front of the
house, yeah, the grade goes right up almost to
the bottom of the shingle and I live in a
house that's on a slab so I know what that
appearance looks like and that can be
deceiving. But the architect said, no, he
said the intention here is specifically to
avoid all of the excavation and removal of the
existing foundations including over the
section that's closest to the bulkhead so as
not to raise the very objections that the
Board voiced this morning with the notion that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
if we had to, in fact, blow up the site that's
a very different situation than being able to
maintain the same foundation and simply
raising it. So he said that is absolutely the
intention.
Now we are still left with the issue of
being able to prove to you that we can do what
we're representing we're going to do and I
think that goes back to your request, Leslie,
about having some sort of an engineering
assessment. The same as Pat was describing in
the prior hearing, you know, the idea of could
a first story hold a second story and the
question here is can the existing foundation
be reused. So we would absolutely still
supply that to you as evidence of the
intention, but I suppose my question is if
upon receipt of a report that would be to your
satisfaction, the Board would be inclined to
grant the relief, then there's no real reason
to reopen this again in another month. If in
fact it turns out that that foundation really
cannot be used and this were to evolve into a
larger project where we would literally be
blowing up the site, it sounds like you would
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want to have a much lengthier assessment of
what can be done here with respect to, you
know, perhaps changing the pre-existing
location of the house, in which case we would
have to keep this open and we would have to
visit the idea, but again even speak -- I
contacted Ms. DeNicolo and she said that, no,
this was exactly what she and her husband were
hoping really to avoid, by instead of coming
up with a completely different house, actually
having the same house rebuilt over the
existing foundation with the additions and
expansion really just in the front in a
conforming location.
So if they were required to completely
change the whole location of the house with
respect to the bulkhead, then they would in
fact have to excavate and pull out the -- not
only take down the walls, the framing, but
they'd have to excavate and pull out the
entire foundation, which would obviously cause
a much more substantial impact to the site
and, you know, that would harken back to the
concerns that the Board members were voicing
this morning.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Are you going to
have -- you will have to do some excavation
for the additions? You're going to have to
MR. HERRMANN: Oh, absolutely.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, you're
going to have to dig for the portions --
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that you're putting on.
MR. HERRMANN: Right,
the exception of -- and I
-- on the side yard
but actually with
forget what the
number was from the Chapter 275 application --
it was like 8 or 10 square feet or something.
Those new footprints are actually 100 feet
from the bulkhead, so not only in conformance
with -- in other words if those were the only
parts of the project, they would not only be
in conformance with the bulkhead setback, but
they would be in conformance with the wetland
setback as well. So that was the premise upon
which the Trustees had granted their approval,
which was that the expansion was effectively
occurring outside their jurisdiction and the
rest of the work really was occurring within
the same footprint inside their jurisdiction.
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So with the mitigation incorporated they were
satisfied with the project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want to ask
-- I want to point out something, I think, for
the record. While I'm sure this Board is
prepared to entertain the application as
applied for --
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- specifically
this new information that speaks to the
condition of the foundation and so, once the
house is leveled, really all bets are off. We
don't have to base variance relief on the
location of a foundation and its use.
MR. HERRMANN: Understood.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I just want that to
be clear because it's the structure itself --
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and once that's
gone, then the foundation may or may not --
you know, if it can be reused it makes it more
economically feasible for the client and it's
-- your applicant -- and it's less land
disturbance and so on, but that doesn't
genuinely, absolutely in every instance have
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
an impact on reducing nonconformity.
MR. HERRM~2qN: No, that's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We've got
situations where you could use three-quarters
of a foundation and fill-in a little bit, you
know, to step it back a little bit from the
bulkhead. So I just want the record to
reflect that fact
understand that.
information about
and make sure that we
Although I think having
foundations when an
application is in part predicated on the basis
of using it --
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- is an important
bit of information for the Board to have.
MR. HERRMANN: Yeah. No and I understand
that and we wouldn't argue that you were
somehow legally or otherwise bound to grant
relief simply because we were reusing the
foundation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. HERRMAATN: I mean there's nothing in
the Code or in practice to support that idea.
I think what we would argue is that it would
be an important part of your consideration
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
just getting back to kind of what Ken was
touching upon this morning, where there is a
big physical impact different to the site
whether you are in fact excavating out the
entire structure including the foundation and
having to have all of this disturbance
actually not just on the site, but within 75
feet of the bulkhead, as opposed to a
situation where you're really not disturbing
the grade, I mean other than the fact that
there's equipment and machinery and people
walking on it, but it's not a situation where
you're cutting, excavating and then refilling.
So I think that would be what we would argue
would be the benefit to the site of allowing
them to use the foundation because otherwise I
mean the reality is that if the Board denied
the relief and said you had to physically take
the house and move it 5 feet or 10 feet or 12
feet or whatever closer to the road, you're in
a situation where you are just completely, you
know, altering the site and creating a lot
more disturbance and impact to the site by
having to take out all of the foundation and
so getting back to the spirit of what we were
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
arguing in our application to you, is that
when all is said and done the portion of the
house that sits closest to the bulkhead and
the creek will look the same. It will just
be, you know, raised 2 feet higher.
So again, and I just -- I did want to get
to that because I, you know, we got off to a
not-great start and I didn't want to leave
this room with there being this, you know,
sort of tension over this because it is never
my intention to belittle, you know, this
Board's role or the Code or what you're doing.
My frustration stems from an issue that, as
you pointed out, doesn't really have to do
with your role, it has to do with a problem
that I have with a Code because it holds,
potentially holds adjacent properties to
different standards based on whether they have
a bulkhead and I think that's a fair thing for
you to consider.
It's not -- and Jim, to your comment,
it's not my coming in and saying, oh, if only
the stupid bulkhead wasn't here, we wouldn't
have to file this stupid application. I think
it is reasonable for the Board to consider
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
that if there wasn't a bulkhead here that no
relief would be necessary. I mean that's a
reasonable thing to consider because it's a
unique part of the Code. It doesn't happen in
anything else that you deal with, yard
setbacks, and everything would be applied
consistently either if they're conforming lots
or even if they're undersized nonconforming,
everyone with the same area within that
community would still be treated the same with
respect to bulk schedule, coverage
requirements, setbacks. It's only this issue
that kind of can really separate two
potentially adjacent properties. So that's
the point --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we did review
that pretty fully this morning.
MR. HERRMANN: -- of my putting that in
there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So let's --
MR. HERRMANN: Yes, but I guess what I'm
just saying is I want you to understand what's
behind my bringing that up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
apparent, Rob.
It's not --
I think it's pretty
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERRMANN: Okay. Okay, I know, but I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. HERRM3LNN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I think we get it.
I just want to know
what this Board now wants to do. Do we want
to do what had been planned previously, which
is to leave it open and receive this
information from the architect in writing and
have the opportunity to question again or do
we want to close it subject to receipt of that
information in writing; we can do, you know,
either one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I think again I
think it would be only fair to Rob, Mr.
Herrmann, but honestly I think he wants to
close it, but you know say -- I mean I have a
different perception of what I think you're
going to do here. I mean I think you're going
to just leave the cement there and add 2 feet
to it. I just don't see why you wouldn't. It
looks like a poured foundation to me.
MR. HERRMANN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, why -- if that
doesn't change then really there's not a lot,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
you know, it's just -- the hardship is then
you got a house that's going to be 2-foot
lower than the rest of the house. You know,
then I don't think I have too much trouble,
problem with it.
MR. HERRMANN: Yeah and that was why when
we came back to that getting really to the
meat of why we're here, is that the purpose of
that room is supposed to become part of their
kitchen and, again, the architect is using
almost this colonial term ~a keeping room".
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a very
colonial term.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. HERRMANN: And I asked him what else
would you call it and he was just coming up
with, you know, breakfast room or sitting room
or whatever. The point is it's supposed to be
part and parcel to the renovated kitchen and
so the more the applicant started to think
about this they were like every time we're
going to and from the kitchen table, from the
kitchen cabinets --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You step down.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERRM_Aiq~: -- you're going down and
up and down and up and aesthetically and
architecturally why are they investing all of
this money to, you know, redo the whole rest
of the front of the house and then leaving
themselves with this remnant of the original
house that's 2 feet. I mean it's not like
we're talking like a 6-inch step. I mean it's
actually 2 feet lower than the room that it's
supposed to be part of.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. HERRMANN: So again in an effort to
avoid the relief that was -- I mean this is
not, you know, this is not a bluff. I mean
they went through everything. I mean we got
every permit. They went to the Building
Department stage and then it was like, as --
you know and this happens with other clients,
everything started to become real and every
builder they talked to said why are you doing
this? You know this is crazy, we're going to
be done with this and you're going to be
unhappy that you didn't take that additional
step and request the relief from the Zoning
Board and at least give yourself the chance to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
kind of get this done how you really want it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I think it's
clear. I just want to know how this Board
wants to do. It's pretty clear you want us to
close it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a couple of
questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure, go ahead.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The proposed
additions, will
won't, but will
additions, will
they -- I know the garage
the other side proposed
that have a full basement?
MR. HERRMANN: Yes. The idea is that the
structure and, as I understand it, the
structure now has a basement underneath it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct.
MR. HERRMANN: And they want that to be
underneath the additions, I believe.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is where that
information will --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- be in a
foundation plan and a description by the
architect --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERRMANN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- is going to be
very useful.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Normally, it wouldn't
be done under a garage addition.
MR. HERRMANN: No. No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would be slab.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But a question about
the basement. I see you have a walk-out from
the basement on southern exposure.
MR. HERRMANN: Yup.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Can you describe that
basement to us? Is that an active livable
space or is it just storage area?
MR. HERRMANN: It's a partially finished
and used space now, yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. HERRMANN: And I did ask the
architect that question and the issue with it
and this actually is the origin of this --
part of the original of the 2-foot raising is
that I think -- and I don't have the plans in
front of me, but I think he said it was either
7 feet or 7 feet and some number of inches, so
they wanted to create a more usable space with
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
proper headroom in the basement which was
being complicated by the fact that they are
apparently adding also central air and the
ductwork is going to run under the first floor
and basically eat up some more of that ceiling
space. So they would actually end up
compromising that space that's there now
unless they raised it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Unless they raised it.
MR. HERRMANN: So that's kind of the
genesis of the raising in the first place
because the other question that you didn't ask
me is all of this is about making sure that
this part comes up to the rest, well why did
the rest have to come up in the first place
because this is not being done like for FEMA
conformance or anything like that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HERRMANN: This is all
architecturally based.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So does the Building
Department consider --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You did state that
though, right, Rob? You --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
MR. HERRMANN: Yes, I did this morning.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right that you wanted
headroom in the basement.
MR. HERRMANN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. HERRMANN:
Correct --
Oh okay.
-- and that we were
actually losing some based on the renovation
and so --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a very sloping
site. I mean it's a huge grade change from
the front to the back --
MR. HERRMANN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- of this house.
You know.
MR. HERRM3tNN: Yeah, the front is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It might be good to
ask the architect to please identify in the
foundation plan any percentage that's
habitable space.
MR. HERRM3tN-N: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
though some of it -- well,
Because it looks as
right now it's
walk-out. I mean it is, you know, that the
grade on the seaward side, you know, you can
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
walk right out. It can all be (inaudible)
practically, so we need to know what, if any,
portion is going to be habitable.
MR. HERRMANN: Okay and are you --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm not going to
ask for it, but technically the proper way to
show it is in a building section, but I'm not
going to ask for that.
MR. HERRMAIqN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's how it would
really show up. You'd show the slope of the
property and it would show what was on what
level relative to that slope and then, you
know, that's --
MR. HERRMAI~N: Are you also interested in
knowing what the finished habitable space of
that subfloor would be versus what it is now
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would be --
that's easy to do, just note it on the plan.
MR. HER~: Yes. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yup. All right, so
what does this Board want to do? Do you want
to close it --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Close the hearing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: --
receipt of that information?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
subject to
Yes?
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so I will
make a motion that we close this hearing
subject to receipt of information from the
architect regarding foundation and the various
points about it we discussed, reserving
decision to later date. Second on this?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
S ignat ure ~v%~_.~
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
March 31, 2010
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