Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-03/03/1988 Hearing (2) TRANSCRIPT, OF HEARING SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS SPECIAL MEETING OF THURSDAY, MARCH 3, 1988 Appl.-No. 3607 Applicant(s): JAMES O'NEILL and PETER McSHERRY Location of Property: N/s Wiggins and W/s 8th Streets, Greenport. County Tax_ Map ID No. 1000- 48 -01 -22. Board-Members present were: Chairman Goehrin~qer P. Goehringer, Members Serge Doyen, Charles Grigonis, and Robert J. Douglass. Absent was: Member Joseph H. Sawicki (out of state). Also present were: Linda Kowalski, Board Secretar. s, and approxi- mately. 50^.persons at this point in time in the audience. lne bnalrman opened the hearing a't 7:30 o~clock p.m. and read 'the notice of hearing and application for the record. This hearing was recessed from our February 18, 1988 meeting (as agreed). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER- This was a hearing that was recessed from the last regular meeting in the Matter of O'Neill and McSherry, Appeal Number 3607. You're on. WILLIAM D. MOORE, ESQ.: I have a copy of the C.O. for the dwelling, which I didn't realize there were two. I got that for you first off. CHAIRMAN: Good. MR. MOORE: And I may as well stay up here describing in writing, it may be easier. You had asked me the last time to see if we couldn't re-draw the line of this proposed Lot Number 2. I don't know if you've got the surveys in front of you, but I'll spread them out again. This one has some additional information. You also asked for the square footage of the dwellings° CHAIRMAN: This is where Lot No. 2 is 3,228 sq. ft. MR. MOORE: C'orrect. CHAIRMAN: Ok. MEMBER DOYEN: Thank you. (Copies were distributed to Board Members.) MR. MOORE: We put on the square footage of the house, and that's the change on this survey that Mr. VanTuyl prepared for me. You had asked originally to see if I could move the northerly property line in some fashion, and I can't do it because as I show on this survey, and those surveys show as well, the cess- pools for each of the respective homes--I can't move that line any further north, otherwise I'm incorporating pools from the Page 2 - Transcript of Hearing - Appeal #3607 Matter of James O'Neill and Peter McSherry Board of Appeals - March 3, 1988 Meeting MR. MOORE (continued): larger dwelling, which fronts on Eighth Street. The Health Department has already said that they do not approve the existence of septic systems on somebody else's land with an easement to get to it to repair--they will not go for that. CHAIRMAN: Right. MR. MOORE: So I can't change that northerly property line. What I did do was suggest pushing the easterly property line out approximately -- how many feet did I do that? About 15 feet-- I'm sorry, 22 feet. And if you do that as I show on this survey here, just my own scribblings-- 22 feet by 60-- you add an additional 1350 sq. ft. to that proposed Lot #2. It takes away the same 1350 from the larger Lot #1, reducing that one to 7882 sq. ft. It balances them out a little bit better, but we really can't move this northerly line any further north than it is because of the situation of the cesspools. I can't go all the way to Eighth Street with that easterly line because the water main is there and we have to get the water access from the large house down to the main. So that's about the best I could do. And I'll leave this with you as an alternative to expand the size of Lot #2~ as the only feasible alternative from what we had originally presented. CHAIRMAN: And you said the footage on that was what? MR. MOORE: By adding that additional square footage, it's approximately 1350 sq. ft. in that hatched area. CHAIRMAN: And you said the dimensions were how much? MR. MOORE: That should be 17½ feet by -- I'm sorry, 22 feet by 60 feet. Twenty-t'wo feet by sixty feet. CHAIRMAN: Ok. MR. MOORE: That's the only alternative we really have in separating these two lots and obviously we need a variance to do it because there's no way we can separate these two houses and come up with legal size building lots. Page 3 ~ Transcript of Hearing - Appeal #3607 Matter of JAMES O'NEILL and PETER McSHERRY Board of Appeals March 3, 1988 Meeting MR. CHAIRMAN: Ok, we thank you very much. MR. MOORE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are still on Appeal #3607, which is O'Neill and McSherry. Is there anybody else that would like to speak in favor of this application? (No one) Anybody like to~ speak against the application? (No one) Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing and reserving decision until later. MEMBER DOUGLASS: Second. On motion by Mr. Goehringer, seconded by Mr. Douglass, it was RESOLVED, to close the hearing and reserve decision until later in the Matter of Appeal No. 3607 - Application of JAMES O'NEILL and PETER McSHERRY. Vote of the Board: Ayes: Messrs. Goehringer, Doyen, Dougl~ass and Grigonis. (Member Sawicki was absent.) This resolution was duly adopted. Respectfully submitted, ~.~o~~ a my Southold Town Board of Appeals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD BOARD OF APPEALS RE: Charles Zahra - Application for Reversal of Determination of Building Inspector - Revocation of Building Permit. Town Hall Southold, New York March 3rd, 1988 8:15 p.m. BEFORE: Gerard P. Goehringer, Chairman Robert J. Douglass Linda Kowalski, Secretary Charles Grigonis Serge Doyen, Jr. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A P P E A R A N C E S : WICKHAM, WICKHAM & BRESSLER, ESQS. Attorneys for Charles Zahra P.O. Box 1424 Main Road Mattituck, New York BY: ERIC BRESSLER, ESQ. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GOEHRINGER: This is the last hearing of the evening, and I do have to apologize to you, Mr. Bressler that you were not the only hearing on tonight so, therefore, you are still the last hearing of the evening~ and I know that we had promised you that you would be the only hearing tonight, but I'm sorry there were other more pressing issues before you or just as pressing. MR. BRESSLER: I need another date then. No, just kidding. MR. GQEHRINGER: For the record, this is Appeal Number 3701, is reconvened from the last regularly scheduled monthly meeting. This is on behalf of Charles Zahra. For the public in question, during the last hearing we had three witnesses sworn in and one witness that spoke independently that was not sworn in and two of those witnesses are before us tonight, and that is Mr. Bressler and Mr. Zahra, and we will be swearing in other witnesses tonight. As for the tenure of the meeting, I would ask if there are any spokespersons that would like to speak that represent either a group or RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 7 8 9 10 11 12 ~13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 if you'd like to speak as an individual, kindly just wait -- just kindly state your name and please restrict your statements that are germane to this particular subject area and preferably to this particular hearing. If you are not completely aware of the hearing in question, of what is specifically stated within or embodied within the transcripts that I have before me, then I would ask you please to limit your conversation to those areas that particularly deal with that. Thirdly-- or secondly, I have a specific problem in the respect that I made a statement at the last meeting that I was unaware of the whereabouts of the two building inspectors and that was not particularly true. I'll be honest with the public, I was not -- I was more interested in the hearing than I was basically on the -- of the whereabouts the other people were or whereabouts other people were and I apologize to the building inspectors for that particular part of it. I was aware, of course, that Mr. Lessard was ill and Mr. Horton was on vacation, and so if I caused any problems, I RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 apologize, gentlemen. I guess we'll start with the hearing. Mr. Bressler, could I -- would you step up to the mike for a couple of moments? You were going to supply us with some information. We had the mike fixed this afternoon. You were going to supply us with some information that we had requested on specific dates. MR. BRESSLER: Yes, that's correct. At the time of the last hearing, as I recall, Mr. Chairman, you had requested in order to aid and in organizing the testimony a brief chronology of events. I have -- I have prepared that chronology listing the various events with copies of relevant documents which were not yet or at least to my knowledge not yet in the record. Secondly, I believe that you asked for a chronology with respect to the photographs which have been previously submitted. This has been furnished in the form of Xeroxes of the photographs, numbered sequentially, taken between the period of May to August of 1987. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Documents handed to Mr. Goehringer.) MR. GOEHRINGER: I appreciate it. Is there anything else you wanted to add to the record at this time? MR. BRESSLER: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOEHRINGER: I believe there's a lady in the back on my left-hand side that would like to say something. MS. FARR: Are you going to take statements from people on this hearing after the hearing information has been completed? MR. GOEHRINGER: Yes. MS. FARR: Thank you. Then I'll wait till then. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you for waiting. All right, basically I guess we've gotten to the point where we want to discuss a couple of issues with the building inspector, so I'll ask Mr. Lessard if he would step up to the mike and raise his right hand. (Mr. Lessard approached the podium.) 'MR. GOEHRINGER: Mr. Lessard, the information that you're about to bring forth to RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this board is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR. LESSARD: Yes. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. Is there anything that you want to state for the record concerning this case? MR. LESSARD: Because of -- because of pending legal activities or action that's pending, if you would, I'd make a statement that would encompass that part of the project that would be to where I would consider the Board of Appeals would be involved and may have' to address, if you would go that way. And that would be probably sometime in early September or late August when Mr. Zahra came into my office and he said he had a terrible problem; that he could not frame the roof affair to meet the existing apartment roof. And I said that at that time, "Mr. Zahra, you have a stamped set of plans from an engineer or an architect. That's the people you should be talking to, because the Building Department is not in the business of designing buildings." And he said "Oh, I can't -- I can't talk RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 -13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to that stubborn GD Greek because he won't do what I want him to." And he said "My problem is the new roof that I have to frame will not meet the old one." It was quite obvious because the ceilings were too low in the existing building, along with the windows and it would have to be picked up. And he said "Do you suppose I could open up parts of the accessory apartment and put in two by sixes?" And I said to him something to the effect that it is a nonconforming apartment; you have to be careful you don't exceed the value of the 50 percent. And he said, "Well, I really don't know what to do." And I said "What you have to do as far as I'm concerned is to go back to your engineer and do whatever you have to," and he left. This was in the early -- this was in the morning, around 10 o'clock. Early in the afternoon Mr. Horton had returned from being on the road, and he said to me, he said "Was Mr. Zahra in?" And I said "Yeah" -- I'm sorry, he RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 said "Was Charlie in?" morning." And he said "Did you make any arrangements with him?" And I said "No. Why? What is hell is the matter?" And he said he took the whole top of the building off. So he went back and spoke to Charlie and I guess he got the impression from Charlie, and you'd have to ask Mr. Horton this to verify it, but from what I was told, Charlie told him that I had said to him he can do anything he wants. And I said to Kurt, Mr. Horton, "You know damn well that nobody in the Building Department has the authority to okay getting rid of nonconformity and getting it back. Okay?" I guess a Stop Work Order was issued. Whether the first one was torn up or not, I It's hearsay, and I'm not gonna say don't know. that. I said "Yes, he was this The end result, and Mr. Horton could probably tell you the sequence, Mr. Bressler came in, early in the morning, 8:30ish maybe the following day or shortly -- the following Monday or whatever, wanted to talk to Mr. Horton because he can't talk to that "damn Lessard," 9 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 which is perfectly fine with me. And when he "Well what's the end left I said to Mr. Horton, , result?" He said he explained to Mr. Bressler that because the top was taken off, the plans that the permit was issued for no longer pertained, he would have to go out and get another revised set of plans and bring them back in again. And Mr. Bressler said fine, or something to that effect, I guess, and he would be back. Further down the road we got reports that Mr. Zahra was back working again, I had no choice, but because he wouldn't stop, revoke the permit. Okay? The only other thing that I would say was from that day in early September until now, nobody has come in with the revised plans, nobody has ever told those people they couldn't have their restaurant, nobody has filed with the New York State Board of Review on whatever problem he has there, no one has come into the Building Department to ask if they can make the building safe. Nobody has gone to your boa rd pertaining to the accessory apartment, if that's RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ' 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 what this is all about, and that's about all I can say. If I can answer anything, I'd be glad to, providing it doesn't go into that legal area. MR. GOEHRINGER: Well, you're going to have to stop me if it does. MR. LESSARD: All right. Yes, sir, I'll try. MR. GOEHRINGER: And I want the public to be aware of the fact that the thoughts that I have perceived are mainly thoughts that were resurrected or elicited from the last hearing, and they were not specifically anything that I had derived out of reading the minutes, because I'll be perfectly honest with you, I purposely did not read the minutes; okay? There was a discussion made by the applicant, and I think it was somewhere in this area of that day that Mr. Zahra came in and he reflected the raising the roof; okay. I just wanted to ask you first, what -- if somebody mentioned to you, Mr. Lessard, I have to raise the roof, what would that mean to you? MR. LESSARD: That could be one of two RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 things; either to take the roof apart and put a new one onto it, or it could be as was suggested, that the building itself could be picked up and added onto on the bottom, depending on what the condition is. MR. GOEHRINGER: My only question is that at no time were you ever with the thought that this entire second story was going to be demolished? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely not. had made myself perfectly clear. MR. GOEHRINGER: So basically the reason for the Stop Work Order was because of that severing of that second story? MR. LESSARD: One, that nonconformity was removed, then the plans as submitted no longer pertained, and by law you have to come in and show us now what are you doing, can what you want to do from this point on legally be done. You have to meet the State Construction Code, regardless. So there is no choice. He did something that we had no authority to say fine, just keep right on going. We had no choice in that department but stop it, and that's what we I thought I 12 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 did. And when he refused to stop it, then we have no choice, but to revoke the permit. MR. GOEHRINGER: To your knowledge, based upon the New York State Construction Code, which I believe is the code in effect -- and that's what you more or less rely on? MR. LESSARD: Yes, sir. MR. GOEHRINGER: Okay. What's required for new construction on the second story of a wood frame building in a business zone for utilization of that second story, either for -- MR. LESSARD: If you are talking a new building -- MR. GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. LESSARD: Okay. A new building in a type five or wood construction flammable material~ if you would, is not permitted to go any higher than one story; okay, as far as the public is concerned. If it is an existing building, the state cannot say anything, except the way it's constructed to meet the safety regulations. Once it is removed and it now becomes a RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 new building, then you must meet today's requirements, and the State Construction Code says in a type five no way can you have an apartment or living quarters over it. It must be a type two noncombustible and a whole mess of other stuff. MR. GOEHRINGER: Just for my own personal edification, what about the utilization of it for a business purpose on the second floor? Would it have to meet the handicapped law and all the rest of it? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. Absolutely. You would have to -- you would have to probably design some type of elevator and put it in there for that, as it stands today. There may be modifications shortly, but as it is now-- MR. GOEHRINGER: Okay. I thank you very much, Mr. Lessard. That kind of answers my questions. I guess we get to the approach -- approach a conflict at this particular timer and I do see the town attorney in the audience and I'll see -- do you feel that you want to answer any q~estions from the applicant at this particular time? RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LESSARD: I'd have to know what the question is and whether it would involve something other than this part of the hearing that involves this board. MR. GOEHRINGER: Then maybe what we'll do is we'll ask you to sit down and we'll see -- maybe we'll get you back up again. We thank you, and we'll ask Mr. Horton if he would step up to the microphone for a few moments. MR. LESSARD: Thank you. MR. GOEHRINGER: I thank you. (Mr. Norton approaches the podium.) MR. GOEHRINGER: Mr. Horton, would you raise your right hand and solemnly swear -- MR. HORTON: I do. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. There came a time during the hearing, the last hearing, that they discussed the erection of a cement block wall on the east side. Can you kind of give us some background? MR. HORT©N: All right, I will try to inform everybody to the best of my knowledge. This so-called firewall cement block wall, I don't care what we call it -- first off, when 15 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 -13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 the foundation was put into this building, through, I don't know what, rain storms or what, the easterly wall collapsed. We were called -- we were sent up there, we went up and we observed, both Vic and I, he was there, and we seen the wall was all collapsed in. At this time Mr. Zahra said some few things and he said something about either he'd like to expand the upstairs if he could and like this. When -- this is a no-no because the way the permit was issued, so I did make a suggestion that we -- why don't you go for a firewall, because you will be too close to another wood frame building, the Broken Down Velice, it would be less than 10 feet, and I said if you boarded it up it wouldn't cost you anymore money, you're down to the ground, your footings now, start up and there would be in your favor if you wanted to go to the Board of Review and this you will see on a set of plans. We talked about it, we wrote it down there, and everything was done this way. He agreed specifically because was told him, this is just a suggestion, he didn't have to do it, but it RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 would be to his advantage, because we have been to the Board of Review before. In fact, there's a man in the audience right now that was there with us and he knows what we're talking about, and when you go to that and you lay the facts on, they do give you breaks. I'm not saying they give it to you, but they do give you breaks, so this was just a suggestion. He agreed to go with it. I'm not saying it cost him anymore money or any less money, I don't know, that's not my job. But this is how it came about. Nobody said he had to do it. MR. GOEHRINGER: Does this firewall have to go all the way to the second story or is it mainly for the first floor? MR. HORTON: It was to go above the other -- Broken Down is the one-story building next store, it was to go above that, which it did. Now, it wasn't formerly filled in. He might have wanted to do this, I don't know. He just said I'd like to enlarge what he's doing, like a deck or anything, I don't know. MR. GOEHRINGER: During the actual RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 granting of this permit, did you have any reservations in reference to the preexisting use of the building? MR. HORTON: I was not involved in the granting of this permit. MR. GOEHRINGER: I'm aware of that. But did you have any feelings about the preexisting use of the second story? MR. HORTON: Yes, we all know what we're doing, like that, there is reservations when you have a nonconforming use and there are certain restrictions you got to be careful of. MR. G©EHRINGER: I thank you, very much. I think that's all I have. Thank you, Mr. Horton. Is there anything you'd like to say in rebuttal, Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I'd certainly like some questions put to Mr. Lessard either from you or through you. I think his statements certainly raise a number of issues that bear investigation. MR. GOEHRINGER: Could I ask you a favor, Mr. Bressler? Could you use that mike over 18 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 -13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 there and we'll put Mr. Lessard back over here, and if he wouldn't mind, and what we'll do here is you'll ask the questions to the dias, if you would, to the board, and then if he feels that he can answer them, he'll answer them. MR. BRESSLER: Surely. In the first instance, I believe Mr. Lessard testified that in late August, early September this problem arose. I would like him to pinpoint for the board, if he could, the time when it first came to his attention-- MR. GOEHRINGER: In reference -- MR. BRESSLER: -- that the second story had been removed. When in late August, early Se,ptember was this work done? That's my question. MR. GOEHRINGER: You mean in reference to a chronological date, time? MR. BRESSLER: That's right. All I got was August, September. When did it come down and this problem arise? That's my first question. MR. GOEHRINGER: Can you answer that? MR. LESSARD: I tried to pinpoint it as RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 close as I could, Mr. Chairman, because at the time I thought everybody understood and I didn't -- I didn't put that much thought into the matter after it was discussed. I didn't figure it was a problem. I didn't see nothing wrong with it and I've got a million other things to do. It is just another one of those things during the day. MR. GOEHRINGER: MR. BRESSLER: I understand. I would like to know if a note or record was made of this occurence which would help the board in ascertaining when it is claimed that the taking down of the second story and this conversation occurred? MR. GOEHRINGER: You mean is there some note in the file that would be able to -- that would allow this gentleman to refresh his memory at this particular time? MR. BRESSLER: Precisely, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOEHRINGER: Well, the only thing we can do in that particular case is to take a three-minute recess and allow the building inspector to refresh his memory for that particular incident or action or occurrence or RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 whatever you want to call it at this particular time and we'll see if -- you know, that's the only thing I could do. MR. BRESSLER: Please. MR. GOEHRINGER: I just want you to remember, that although we're on the structure of somewhat of a tribunal, this is not a tribunal in that respect. We are trying to water it down to a certain degree. I'm not an attorney, although I've spent a heck of a lot of time in court. I was never trained in that particular area, so I wish that you would bear that in mind; okay? MR. BRESSLER: Fine. Three minutes would be perfectly all right. MR. GOEHRINGER: So with everybody's indulgence and seeing what I would hope Mr. Lessard -- you know, I understand and I didn'.5 think this specific question of this nature was going to be answered -- asked, rather, to the board for your response, but we'll take a short recess and we'll ask Mr. Lessard if, you know, if you can answer that. MR. LESSARD: I don't see any bearing on RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whether it happened on a Monday or Tuesday, but I'll give it my best shot. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I make that motion for about a three-minute recess, Gentlemen. MR. GRIGONIS: Second. MR. GOEHRINGER: All in favor? THE BOARD: Aye. (At 8:30 p.m. a short recess was taken.) MR. GOEHRINGER: Are you still going with the same question? MR. BRESSLER: Yes. I'd like to know if Mr. Lessard found anything? MR. GOEHRINGER: Could you -- thank you, sir. MR. LESSARD: As far as I could tell from my records, okay, the first I became aware of the second floor disappearing was somewhere in probably the week of the 20th of September. MR. GOEHRINGER: That's -- MR. LESSARD: I can't pinpoint it any closer than that. I'm sorry. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. LESSARD: That's when Mr. Horton made 22 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me aware of a problem in Mattituck. to Mattituck. MR. BRESSLER: 23 I didn't go Now, I would like the board to ask Mr. Lessard if he is aware of whether or not the approved plans called for a new roof structure? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. How else can you add on, sir, without putting the roof? And you can't put a roof on unless it's new. MR. GOEHRINGER: If I might just ask a question, are we talking about the roofing material or are we talking about -- MR. LESSARD: I don't know. MR. GOEHRINGER: -- or are we talking about the roof rafters? MR. LESSARD: I'm assuming he's referring to new roof rafters on the part that's gonna be added on. I don't know what he's after. MR. BRESSLER: His understanding is exactly right, the new roof rafters and those items which go upon it. And I take it the answer is yes? MR. GOEHRINGER: For the addition or for the existing roof? RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. BRESSLER: A new roof over the entire structure. I take it the answer is yes, as shown on the plans? MR. LESSARD: Not as indicated in the plans as I determined. I got the impression that that area that existed may in all probability get a new asphalt roof to go with the rest of what was added on. I don't know how technical that is. MR. GOEHRINGER: Well, that's basically what my question was. MR. BRESSLER: Well, I would ask, then, as to whether or not Mr. Lessard is familiar with what the existing construction of the roof was as opposed to what is shown on the plans, and I'd submit to the board that it's evident from comparing the two that there is a new roof shown on the plans. If you look at two by eights and two by sixes, which I'm advised were not there, I don't see how any other conclusion could be drawn. MR. GOEHRINGER: Do you want to say anything about that, Mr. Lessard? MR. LESSARD: That may be as it is. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That's up to the care of. 25 engineer or architect to take What I studied on that roof plan indicated that it was feasible, according to the state code, and that's what my job is. The responsibility of whether the roof is framed properly is dependent upon the engineer or the architect. According to the education law or the executive law, it is up to the architect on all commercial buildings, has to be there, that's the object of it. I don't know where this is going to, as far as voiding the permit or whatever he asks or whatever he's asked to reverse the decision on. Did you want no say something~ MR. HORTON: Yes, I want to know if somebody else can whisper in somebody else's ear. Can I go whisper in Vic's ear? MR. ZAHRA: If you want to pay him. I happen to be paying him. MR. LESSARD: If we are going to turn tlhis into a circus -- I think I've given you enough information to this board to make a determination. If we're going to turn this into RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 tt 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 a circus, I have nothing to say. MR. BRESSLER: I object strenuously to those remarks. I believe I've asked questions in good faith that go to the heart of those issues, and I think as you, Mr. Chairman, put it at the last meeting, we're trying to get down to the bottom of things here, and I would state for the record that my client and I both do not appreciate those remarks and would reiterate the fact that are they are aske,d strictly in good faith strictly to get to the bottom of things here and I don't believe that this has turned into a circus by any means. It is a very serious matter and I would like to proceed, Mr. Chairman. MR. ZAHRA: Excuse me, one second. I'd just like to apologize to the board and the group for the outburst. I'm sorry. MR. GOEHRINGER: Would you sit down, Mr. Zahra? I realize that there are times you might have to confer with your attorney. You kind of left me on a cliff hanging, Victor, and you have to help me understand this. In other words, although the plans say that they RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 call for a new roof, meaning new roof rafters and so on and so forth, you did not specifically think that they were going to replace anything other than the shingles on the existing part of the roof? MR. LESSARD: That is the common practice, sir, but that's between him and his architects, not between him and the Building Department. MR. GOEHRINGER: Okay. So you thought he was only going to add on the addition, which was -- the addition was going to be the new roof, which, is the part that -- which we refer to a reverse gable coming off on the east side facing the Broken Down Velice. MRo LESSARD: That's right, sir MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Mr. Bresster? Excuse me, I just had to clear that issue up in my own mind. MR. BRESSLER: Fine. Thank you. That's exactly the point. I would now request the board to inquire of Mr. Lessard whether or not he is aware of whether the plans as submitted and approved called for a consideration and possible RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 replacement of structural members at the time the renovation proceeded to the point where these structural members became apparent to the builder? Is Mr. Lessard aware of whether or not the plans provided for that eventuality? MR. LESSARD: If you're referring to that statement in the plans, sir, that say that any wood that is deteriorated would be replaced, I would also point out to this board I have not -- I, the building department, have seen no reports from any engineers specifying what should be replaced and that's where it belongs. MR. GOEHRINGER: Okay. Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: May I assume that the answer, then, to my question is yes, that Mr. Lessard is aware of something in the plans which provides for that eventuality? MR. LESSARD: Plus the procedure that has to be gone through; yes, absolutely. MR. BRESSLER: I would now ask whether there came a time when Mr. Lessard had a conversation with Mr. Zahra concerning the deteriorated condition of the first floor members in this building and what had to be done RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 to correct them? MR. LESSARD: Not to my recollection. He may have talked to Mr. Horton about it, but he didn't talk to me. MR. BRESSLER: If he didn't talk to Mr. Lessard, was a conversation with Mr. Horton relayed to Mr. Lessard, wherein a conversation took place regarding the replacement of first floor members? MR. GOEHRINGER: Do you remember any, Mr. Horton? MR. HORTON: I do, yes. MR. LESSARD: I did not have a conversation with Mr. Horton on this, other than th.e fact that when I went on that job, the second or third time, all the -- all the first floor members have been removed and done anew, and I asked Mr. Horton what's going on here. And that's the sum total of the rotten wood or whatever you're referring to. MR. GOEHRINGER: Did you therefore want to ask that question of Mr. Horton? MR. BRESSLER: Yes. I think I got -- I think I got an affirmative response. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LESSARD: Is he done with me? going to play yo-yo here. MR. BRESSLER: I'm not done -- MR. GOEHRINGER: do you have? MR. BRESSLER: 30 I'm not How many more questions Well, not too much, but I think it depends in part on Mr. Lessard's answers. My next question is, didn't there come a time before the second floor members were removed that Mr. Lessard had a conversation with Mr. Zahra concerning the rotten second floor membe rs ? MR. LESSARD: No, sir. We had no conversation, and I want the board at this point to understand something; Mr. Horton is a senior building inspector. Mr. Horton is well trained in his job. Mr. Horton doesn't have to come in and report every nail and splinter to his boss. If he did that, two things would happen; Mr. Horton wouldn't be able to do the rest of his work and neither would Mr. Lessard. So let's not get a little ridiculous on this. What else would you like to know, sir? RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 31 MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Lessard, were you present at the site when a discussion was had with respect to the firewall and the foundation on this building? MR. LESSARD: I was, sir, yes. MR. BRESSLER: And wasn't the question of whether or not the first floor members were rotten and had to be replaced discussed at that time? MR. LESSARD: Not that I was aware of. Not that I was aware of. I know that Mr. Horton and Mr. Zahra went over and conversed while I was doing something else, and I know that Mr. Horton advised him -- advised him that it would be.to his best interest to put that wall up, and that's all I know about that. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Lessard, did you have occasion to look at the first floor members while you were down at the building? MR. LESSARD: I did not. I was standing on the first floor, but I didn't look underneath the first floor, no, sir. MR. BRESSLER: Well, did you look around the first floor? RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 -13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. MR. BRESSLER: Was it apparent to you at that time that there were structural members that needed replacement? MR. LESSARD: when I was there. MR. BRESSLER: They were already replaced At that time did you have occasion to view the second story members at all? them? MR. LESSARD: MR. BRESSLER: Yes. And what did you note about MR. LESSARD: That they were new. MR. GOEHRINGER: I think he's referring -- MR. LESSARD: When I looked at that, there was new timbers added. You may call them ceiling joist. You may call them second floor joist, and technically that was they would be at the time I observed the second floor, now suspended with I beams. I don't know what else you want me to observe. MR. BRESSLER: Were you told by Mr. Horton that this had been discussed with Mr. Zahra and it was approved? 32 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LESSARD: MR. BRESSLER: const ruction. MR. LESSARD: 33 What was, sir? The fact that there was new I don't understand the question. Did I discuss -- MR. BRESSLER: Did you discuss the matter of the new construction with Mr. Horton and %~ere you told by Mr. Horton that he had discussed it with Mr. Zahra? MR. LESSARD: No, I didn't. I just pointed out to Mr. Horton that I observed everything brand new on the first floor and I wanted to know what was going on. MR. GOEHRINGER: Could you just, again, fo.r the board, not specifically to the -- MR. BRESSLER: If that's the case, Mr. Chairman, and that everything was new and Mr. Lessard didn't know what was going on and he didn't get a satisfactory explanation, I don't understand why the job proceeded at that point. There is something -- let me just state, Mr. Chairman, there is something inherently inconsistent about this. According to what we've heard, the RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Building Department goes down there, they see all these new things going on that are not part of the plan, Mr. Lessard doesn't bring it to Mr. Zahra's attention, he presumably has a discussion with Mr. Horton, if it's not clear by Mr. Horton, and I haven't heard that it was, and there's no violation issued and Mr. Zahra goes on his way with no approval and there's no Stop Work issued, yet the board is led to believe that at some point the story which has been put forth tonight comes out and that all of the sudden he does something else without approval and he's told to stop. This doesn't make any sense to me, Mr. Chairman, and what I 'm trying to find out is what happened at the first meeting~ when everybody found out things had been done anew? No new plans were requested, no Stop Work were issued, there's something internally inconsistent, that's my point, and I would invite the chair to ask any questions that it has on this subject, because apparently I'm not going to find out exactly what happened, and I don't have any more questions along this line. 34 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ~13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. LESSARD: Ail I could say to the chair is I observed everything new. I observed that what was new was in conformity, as far as the layout is concerned with the floor plan. Okay? Obviously the attorney doesn't know that much about construction, and I can understand that. I observed two things, what was put up there is what was shown on the plan and that it was all new, and I questioned the fact that it was new with Mr. Horton, and that's nobody business but me and Mr. Horton, unless we agreed that something was severely wrong. Okay? MR. BRESSLER: In that case, Mr. Chairman, I would just put forth the proposition -- MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Lessard. MR. BRESSLER: -- that if that is so, and that if everything that was put up that was new was done in accordance with the plans and that was okay with the Building Department, and certainly you know from the last hearing our position that had been discussed in advance and approved and that that didn't require new plans, it is our position that with respect to the RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 6 7 8 9 10 i1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 second story, which was also discussed and which was also new construction and which by the way was also going to be in exactly the same place, I think we've just heard from the microphone that that, too, would be perfectly okay. MR. LESSARD: Nonconformity. MR. BRESSLER: I am at a loss, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Lessard. MR. GOEHRINGER: MR. BRESSLER: I don't have any more questions for Thank you. Now, with respect to Mr. Horton, I just have one or two questions, following up on the one that you indicated properly was put to him. MR. GOEHRINGER: Do you want to answer some questions, assuming that it's not without the scope? MR. HORTON: First off, I'd like to say something to Mr. Yes, I would like to answer. Bresster and like that. There's a little misunderstanding here. He made a statement about new joist and like that. He didn't say where and what. I assume the second floor joist. To tell you the perfectly honest truth, RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 I have never been down inside that cellar because I'm -- I can't fly down. I'm not Batman or anyone else. That cellar is pretty deep, there's no ladder, nothing when I've been there, and I've never been down in the cellar to see all the timbers and everything that was put in there. The new part you could see. What the old part is I haven't got the slightest idea, unless somebody buys me a sky hook, number 1. Number 2, what I thought he was referring to is either the second floor joist from the second story, and what happened there I pulled in there one of my files and I pulled in for in,spection and Charlie says "I want to talk to you." I says "What about?" He says "I had those old beams laying around my place," and he said "The upstairs I think was a little weak. Do you mind if I put these up there?" Well, if you take a look what's in there and where he put in, he wants to double up. That gives me a little more because the fish plates is a little stronger. I agreed. He did on it his own and everything else after it was RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 done. I did tell, afterwards, that everything was fine. I mean what can you say after a man has done something like this? At that time the second story was sitting on there and nothing was done above the floor joist, the second floor joist. He did beef them up, which is great. You can go up there and see them-today. I don't know how long he said they had been laying around; that's why they were a little discolored, he said he had them stored at home or someplace, I don't know. That's what I want to square away about the floor joist. MR. GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you the same question I asked Mr. Lessard, and that was; based upon the plans, you know, when during the period of time that there was some minor modifications or anything, did you have any idea that they were actually going to destroy that second floor? MR. HORTON: None at all until I drove up there, I don't know, the 25th or 21st of September and I looked and I couldn't believe what i saw. There was no top. I had to call previous to this, "You ought to go to Mattituck RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and see what's going go on. MR. GOEHRINGER: plans -- MR. HORTON: 39 There's no top." But I mean based upon the No, because it showed they were going to come out toward the street a little bit and they wanted to change the stairway and going toward the Broken Down Velice with a stairway down there, and that's the only thing that I know. MR. GOEHRINGER: I'm not trying to add to the questions of tonight, I assure you; I am just trying to get this straight in my mind. Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: My next question to Mr. Horton is whether or not he ever had a conversation with Mr. Zahra about -- other than the beams supporting the second floor as to whether he ever had a conversation with Mr. Zahra about replacing structural members in the walls. MR. HORTON: What walls are we referring to? MR. BRESSLER: Why, the walls of this building, let's start with the first -- RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 !0 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 MR. HORTON: The second story, I was never upstairs. There's no way of getting there after he tore everything out. MR. BRESSLER: How about -- MR. HORTON: If you talk to Mr. Tsontakis, the engineer, he said he couldn't see, had to take a flashlight. He couldn't see and he was your engineer. MR. BRESSLER: How about the first floor walls; did you ever have a discussion with him about the rotted and deteriorated -- MR. HORTON: Not so rotted and deteriorated. He mentioned a couple of fish plates what he was changing. He beefed them up. In fact, if anybody looks at those sets of plans, they're not a good set of plans. Charlie says he's a good builder, maybe he can build them, but they're not a good set of plans. MR. BRESSLER: Were they approved? MR. HORTON: They were approved. If you read, the alteration and like that, it doesn't say a new building. MR. BRESSLER: MR. HORTON: Well, Mr. Horton -- And please check the permit RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 and you'll see what it says. MR. BRESSLER: The plans do reflect the existence of a new roof. MR. HORTON: May I ask a question? What set of plans; you have, are they approved by the Building Department or the one you dragged out of your briefcase? MR. GOEHRINGER: Let's not get counterproductive. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman -- MR. GOEHRINGER: We did run into this problem because of different sets of plans because one of them was photocopied and one was a straight set. I am in hopes that we are de,aling with the set that reflects 8/8/86. MR. HORTON: Our plans have a stamp of 'the Building Department on there, what you can do and everything else. Any other plans don't pertain to this building. MR. BRESSLER: MR. HORT©N: in your hand before. MR. BRESSLER: MR. HORTON: The answer is yes? The ones you've been showing Yes. This one you've been waving RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in front of us. MR. GOEHRINGER: ours? MR. HORTON: one he's been referring to. all. MR. BRESSLER: MR. ZAHRA: MR. HORTON: Do you want a copy of No, I'm talking about that It's been shrunk, that's Eric, I have that one here. I want to see the one Mr. Bressler has been showing through the air, that he's been referring to. MR. ZAHRA: There's no difference. MR. BRESSLER: It's the same one the board MR. HORTON: has . I'd like an engineer to look The board has already I want an engineer° He wants an engineer to at it. MR. BRESSLER: looked -- MR. HORTON: MR. GOEHRINGER: look at it. MR. BRESSLER: In this case, you can look at the one the board has and answer the question. Doesn't matter to me. 42 r RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 MR. HORTON: I'm not referring to that one. You didn't wave it in the air. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman, if the witness would like to look at the boards' plans to answer that question, that's perfectly okay. MR. GOEHRINGER: Could you just bring those plans up so that I could compare them with the same plans that we have here? It's basically the newer set here, the ones that -- yes, thank you. They appear to be the same set of plans, Mr. Horton, except this lacks the engineer's seal on ours. MR. LESSARD: What about our stamps, Jerry? MR. GOEHRINGER: Well, yours are on the copy of the -- of yours, okay. We had to reduce it. MR. LESSARD: I mean his. The object of putting plans through the Building Department is to -- the Building Department to mark up what is required, not take them back to their client and have them throw them somewhere and work off plans that -- RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GOEHRINGER: Oh, you're referring to the individual pencil marks that you placed on the plans, I assume? MR. LESSARD: The red ink marks and the stamp and the rest of it, absolutely. MR. GOEHRINGER: I have one -- the copy that we have of yours, which again is shrunk, has the fee -- the fee evaluation in longhand and it has some writing which I think appears to be yours. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman, in order that we may get on with this and not get bogged down in things that aren't relevant, here's a stamped set we've got. The board can see -- MR. GOEHRINGER: MR. BRESSLER: they're the same. Could I just see that? The board can see that It's the same, only they're very difficult to read because they're faded. So -- Kurt. right. MR. GOEHRINGER: This is the original set, MR. HORTON: Ail right. Thank you. Ail MR. GOEHRINGER: Do you want to take a 44 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 look at them? MR. HORTON: with that. MR. GOEHRINGER: copied it and it's shrunk. MR. HORTON: All right. MR. GOEHRINGER: sir? No, I'd have to compare ours This is yours. We just Do you want to continue, MR. BRESSLER: Well, the question was concerning the new roof, and that's when the dispute with the plans came up. I want to know, and Mr. Horton is certainly free to refer to the plans, as to whether or not it demonstrates the existence of a new roof? MR. HORTON: As far as if you look on the plans, from a point when Mr. Tsontakis put where it will start from new to old, it doesn't say all new. It nowhere -- it says it will replace certain things. It doesn't say you'll put in all new timber in there, no way. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Horton, am I correct -- If it did -- let me add MR. HORTON: 45 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 something. If it did say, someone in this room is awful stupid to go up there and put I beams up there and keep a second story up there if he's going to tear it down. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Horton, how old is this Coffee Pot building; do you know? kn ow. say. MR. HORTON: I couldn't tell you. I don't It was there before I was born, I would MR. BRESSLER: Not too old. No. I don't think that comes MR. HORTON: into the thing. MR. BRESSLER: plywood construction back then? Well, were roofs made with MR. HORTON: MR. BRESSLER: Pardon? Were roofs made with plywood construction back then? MR. HORTON: I don't know if the roof was plywood construction. I never saw it exposed. Every time I saw it it has fascia boards on it or shingles on it and I think blueish wood shingles on the outside. I'm not sure. I'd have Go check. MR. BRESSLER: My question to you, 46 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 · 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 buildings weren't constructed that way generally back then, with plywood? MR. HORTON: It depends. It might have been remodeled at one time. Who knows? I don't know when the last roof -- I know when I was a builder I used to put plywood on the roof. I don't know what was on there. I never saw it tore off. It was gone. There wasn't even evidence on the ground. MR. BRESSLER: I don't think I have any more questions of Mr. Horton, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Horton. If anybody else would like to speak in favor of this application, again, we ask again if there are spokespersons concerning specific groups or just an individual -- I know this lady had a statement. Could you use the mike and kindly state your name for the record? MS. FARR: is Cathleen Farr. I represent a group. I represent the Southold My name Citizens for Fair Government. We are at 25 Sterlington Commons in Greenport and I would like you to read the position of our group. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 "The pressure for expansion development in Southold Town is tremendous. The volume of applications handled twenty-five years ago has probably quadrupled. Thousands of items of local ordinance and legislation have been added piecemeal over the past twenty-five years. Elected and appointed local officials are inundated by conflicting demands from constituents. There are a lot of problems, problems of water supply, problems of land use, sewage treatment, garbage disposal, management of water ways, all are extremely difficult to resolve. We ask our public officials, part-time employees for the most part, to judge with the wisdom of Solomon, yet we the voters confronted them with a withering confusion of priorities. We only offer objections to our own little problems, rarely taking the time for dispassionate study of the complete picture. That job is left to, quote, government, close quote, such as yourselves. In return we offer perilously low pay and lots of criticism. We selected Mr. Zahra's case as a case in point, because it's well RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 documented. It illustrates a number of problems now typical between the town and its individual citizens. Specifically these; one, conflicting interpretation of rules. Probably the rules are not as clear as they should be and training and review is inadequate to insure consistent interpretation. Two, the system is too slow to respond, due most likely to concern that cases be thoroughly examined to avoid illegal decisions. Apparently it must be streamlined to offer quicker resolutions. For example, the legal justice system sets up a separate court to manage minor traffic violations and such. Serious crimes receive a slower~ more intensive examination of cases in a different court with different rules. Three, the system punishes a citizen without due process, before he receives a hearing. Whether Mr. Zahra gains relief from the defective Stop Work Order or not, he has been punished. By order of the Building Department, the building has stood open to the elements without a roof since mid October. RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Deterioration is evident. No doubt he has also lost money due purely to the delay. Time, as they say, is money. Four, lack of priorities. of priorities should be established to move disputes through the system with greater dispatch. Five, adoption by local governing bodies of the legal concept innocent until proven guilty. We propose that citizens to be judged innocent, unless proven guilty in local civic disputes, as well as criminal ones. Lack of proof, failure to present proof and to do so promptly should result in automatic dismissal of cases, as it is done so from the criminal area. Six, lack of accountability. The supervisory body which should monitor the conduct of the Building Department is the Town Board. In the press of business, there appears to be little regular advice or consultation between the members of the Building Department and the Town Board. One member of the Town Board was -- is present at this hearing. We look to the full board to take up the matter now A determination 50 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 and study this event, not with an eye to punishment, but with all eyes riveted on preventing this whole class of problems in the future. We look to the Zoning Board of Appeals for a streamlined procedure that is much faster than this cumbersome process we now have. We have a long way to go to achieve fair government in Southold. As it has been said, the journey of 1,000 miles begins with the first step. We ask each of you members of the Zoning Board of Appeals to begin this journey by finding in Mr. Zahra's favor tonight. Thank you. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there anybody else that would like to speak in favor of the application? Anybody like to speak against the applicat ion? MS. GARCIA: Excuse me. MR. GOEHRINGER: Yes? I'm sorry, it's a formality, we have to have you state your name. MS. GARCIA: Mr. Chairman, my name is Corinne Garcia, and I would just like to speak as a taxpayer; that I am thoroughly disgusted RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that I have to witness a Southold town attorney just hired and paid by the taxpayers, that I have to witness that he is outside during break discussing the case with the client and advising him on what he could do to win the case. Thank you · MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there anybody else that would like to Do you have something in rebuttal, sir? I'd speak ? MR. BRESSLER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. just like to make few remarks in closing. First., I'd like to respond just briefly to the remarks that were just made. I think they're completely out of order and I would note for, the Chairman that to have the attorney for the town talking to an attorney for an applicant about matters presently under consideration is what I would consider to be constructive rather than destructive, and the content of what was discussed of course is nobody's business at this point, but I would just note to the board that if attorneys for parties stop talking to each other, the legal system is gonna go a little bit crazy. 52 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 tl 12 13 14 15 16 17 i 8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 Finally, in summation, I would just like to point out to the board that what it has before it is a very simple and narrow issue; it has before it the issue of whether the revocation of the building permit, based on two grounds, was proper; one, the violation of the Stop Work Order, and two, failure to comply with plans. I think based upon the testimony at the first session, we've heard nothing to the contrary tonight. That to the extent that the revocation is based on an alleged violation of Stop Work Order, it must fall, and indeed no defense of that position was offered by either member of the Building Department. I might add that neither even claimed that the defects raised were not in fact there. I think that adequately disposes of the first ground. As for the second ground, that is failure to comply with plans, I would note first that I believe the process was defective in the first instance; there is no specification anywhere as to the regard in which the plans were not adhered to, and there's been no supplemental RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 ~4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 '18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 writing ever issued setting forth in what respect the plans weren't ~adhered to. Assuming for a moment that we get over that hurdle, we now come to the issue of whether or not there's any kind of evidence before the board as to whether or not the plans actually weren't followed, and I don't believe that the board has heard any tonight. What the board has heard from Mr. Lessard, rather, is the statement that when, during the course of construction, additions and substitutions were made to the first floor of the building and they generally fell within the parameters of the plan, that that was perfectly okay. I would put forth the proposition to the board that what was intended with respect to the second floor was exactly the same, and if the position of the Building Department is to be consistent, and I'm sure that it ought to be, then any renovation or replacement which falls within the same general outline, just as the first'floor did, would be perfectly okay. We have not heard from the building 54 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 '18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 inspectors any evidence concerning in what way the plans could be altered to show anything different. Indeed, they've testified that the additions that they authorized and ratified, that is the additional supporting members of additional members on the first floor, they didn't stop work for that, they didn't require him to submit additional plans, rather they said that's fine, as Mr. Horton said, if you want to over build, that's perfectly okay, no request for new plans, no request to stop, no request to do anything. I would submit that the situation with respect to the second floor is identical, and that no plan they could ask for would be any different. It is already being admitted by Mr. Lessard that, in fact, a new roof was called for, so it certainly couldn't be that. The walls, which by the way as you heard were to be brought up to code, are going to go on in exactly the same place, and we've heard from Mr. Lessard that that's okay. I don't believe that there's any evidence before the board that any plans have been RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 56 violated in any respect. So I think to the extent that the revocation is founded on that ground, it must fail. And indeed, gentleman, those are the only grounds that were urged before you. While there have been, I note, several other issues tangentially swirling around this case, they haven't been addressed by the Building Department, they haven't been addressed by us, and formally they haven't been addressed by you, and they are not before the board tonight. Had they been brought before the board tonight, then I dare say they would have been considered by us, by other people and they would properly be before you, but there are only two grounds before you, and that's what your decision must be based on, and based on the evidence that we've heard tonight, I don't think there's any basis for sustaining the determination of the Building Department. I would point out certain inconsistencies in the Building Department's testimony this evening. I would note that their testimony concerning the dates that this problem arose are RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 completely erroneous. The evidence you've heard is the conversations and the demolition with respect to the second floor of the removal took place in August. You will find that in the chronology the building stood that way for quite a period while Mr. Zahra was involved in other matters and was getting organized to proceed on the job, and there was a break in there of a good period and the board can see exactly how long, from looking at the chronology. During that period of -- and I don't recall exactly how long it was, but it would be apparent to you from looking, no action was taken, and indeed there was a conversation, and I believe it was in July; nothing was done in July, nothing was done in August. They waited until September. I don't know why. We haven't heard why. They are just in error about that. What caused them to do that, we haven't heard, they didn't volunteer. A complaint, perhaps, I don't know. We've inquired of the Building Department if there was a complaint. Who complained? Th'e answer we got back is "We don't have to tell RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you." And that's in writing, and you'll probably find that in your file, if the entire file was turned over to you. The Building Department's recollection of certain conversations is certainly interesting, to say the least. I believe if the board studies the testimony they will find that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of the chronology which has been laid out before you, and I believe to sum up, in total, there's no credible evidence before the board that Mr. Zahra violated his Stop Work Order or that he deviated from the plans as approved by the building inspectors in any significant way. I would therefore urge the board to reverse the determination of the Building Department and reinstate the building permit and on thoss grounds and no other grounds. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. This board will go out and do a physical inspection of the premises. We have looked at it without measuring. At this particular point we wiil go out and do some measuring and I will also add to the record, because this particular 58 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 -13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 hearing will stay open from a formality point of view until the next regularly scheduled meeting, which is the 17th, and in between now and the 17th either the building inspectors or the town attorney or the applicant's attorney or the applicant may look at anything that we place in the file based upon this physical inspection, and I will go over your particular areas of chronology on the pictures and refresh my memory as to my personal instances as they pertain to this building which may or may not be placed in this area of personal knowledge and physical inspection. The only other thing I wanted to ask you, Mr. Bressler, is that you did not furnish us with two deeds. We'd like to see the deed from North Fork Bank and Trust Company, which was from Edith and Joseph Langer to North Fork Bank and Trust Company, and then the deed from North Fork Bank and Trust Company to Charles Zahra and wife or whomever is on that particular note. MR. BRESSLER: I'll furnish them for you. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you. On that particular note, I'll make a RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 '13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 motion, resetting the hearing for the formality for no further information on an oral sense until the 17th, at which time we will close the hearing and which will give us two weeks to do the physical inspection, and we thank you all for your courtesy tonight, and we thank the building inspectors for coming down, and I want to just close on this note, and that is that the issue of the subpoena that was mentioned not only in the paper and not only what I mentioned is basically an issue that was used to Mr. Bressler that basically a guaranty that they will be here, and as you know you objected to the closing of the hearing -- I'm sorry, you objected to the recessing of the last hearing, so I very simply used that as a secondary guaranty that these gentlemen would be here if need be, and in both cases I -- neither one of them are subpoenaed tonight. They came voluntarily and we thank you for that. (Continued on next page.) 60 RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So I'll make the motion recessing the hearing and in closing it with no further oral testimony on the 17th of March and again thank you, everybody. ~ All in favor -- THE BOARD: Aye. MR. GOEHRINGER: Thank you again for coming. (TIME NOTED: 8:53 P.M.) 61 RAM COURT REPORTING sERVICE (516) 727-3168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATION 62 I, DONNA SADLER BREITENBACH, a Notary Public in and for the State of New York, do hereby certify: THAT the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of my stenographic notes. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this ~ day of '~t~_ __, 1988. DONNA SADLER BREITENBACH RAM COURT REPORTING SERVICE (516) 727-3168