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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-03/03/1988 HearingTRANSCRIPT OF HEARING THURSDAY, MARCH 3, 1988 SOUTHOLD TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS RECONVENED HEARING: Appl. No. 3701 - Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA requesting reversal of Determination of Building Inspector in his revocation of Building Permit #15428Z issued October 27, 1986. Premises known as 140 Pike Street, Mattituck. County Tax Map Parcel 1000-141-04-005. B-1 General Business Zoning District. The Chairman reconvened the hearing at 7:36 o'clock p.m. Present were: Gerard P. Goehringer, Chairman; Serge Doyen; Charles Gr~gonis, Jr. and Robert J. Douglass, constituting four of the five Board Members. Absent was: Member Joseph H. Sawicki. Also present were Linda Kowalski, Z.B.A. Secretary, and approxi- mately 80 persons in the audience (including Victor Lessard, Building-Department Administrator, Curtis Horton, Sr. Building Inspector, Thomas Fisher, Building Inspector, James A. Schonde- bare, Town Attorney, Mrs. Ruth Oliva, Councilwoman). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last hearing of the evening, and I do have to apologize to you, Mr. Bressler, that you Were not the only hearing on tonight and you are still the last hearing of the evening and I know we promised.you that you would be the only hearing tonight, but there were other hearings just a pressing. (Jokingly) MR. BRESSLER: We'll need another date then. (Jokingly). CHAIRMAN: For the record, this is Appeal No. 3701. It is reconvened from the last regular-scheduled meeting in.behalf of Charles Zahra. For the public in question, during the last hear- ing we had three witnesses sworn in and one that spoke independently and was not sworn in, and two of those witnesses are before us tonight, and that is Mr. Bressler and Mr. Zahra. And we will be swearing in other witnesses tonight. As for the tenure of the meeting, I would ask if there are any spokespersons that would like to speak that represent either group, of if you like to speak as an individual, kindly state your name and please restrict your statements that are germa6e to this particular Page 2 - Transcri. pt of Hearing Matter of'Charles Zahra--'App]. No. 3701 Special Meeting - March 3, 1988 ZBA CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER (continued): subject area, and preferably to this particular hearing. If you are not completely aware of the hearing in question of what is specifically stated within or embodied within the transcripts that I have before me, then I would ask you please to limit your conversation to those areas that particularly deal with that. Secondly, I have a specific p~oblem in the respect-- I made a statement at the last meeting that I was unaware of the whereabouts of the two building inspectors, and that was not particularly true. I'll be honest with the public--I was not -- I was more interested in the hearing than I was basically on the whereabouts or where.. other people were and I apologize to the Buildings Inspectors for that particular part of it. I was aware of course that Mr. Lessard was ill and Mr. Horton was on vacation, and so ~f I caused any problems, I apologize, gehtlemen. All right, I guess we'll start with the hearing. Mr. Bressler, would you step us to the mike for a couple of moments. You were going to supply us with some information. (We had the mike fixed this afternoon,) You were going to supply us with some information that we had requested on specific dates? MR. BRESSLER: Yes, that's correct. At the time of the last hear- ing, as I recall', Mr. Chairman, you had requested in order to aid in the organizing of the testimony a brief chronology of events. I have prepared that chronology listing variance events with copies of relevant documents which were not yet, at least to my knowledge, not in the record. Secondly, I believe that you asked for a chronology with respect to photographs which had been previously submitted. This has been done in the form of xeroxes of the photographs numbered sequentially taken between the period of May to August of 1987. (Mr. Bressler submitted a March 3, 1988 chronology of events, copy of page one of the September 18, 1986 Contract of Sale between the NFBTC and Charles Jo and Jean Zahra, copy of the October 8, 1986 letter from the Planning Board to the Building Inspector concerning the waiver of site plan review in the preexisting building, copy of Certificate of Occupancy #Z8935 dated February 16, 1978 for a restaurant and apartment issued to Joseph Langer, copy of photographs numbered 1 through 19.) CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We appreciate it. Page 3 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else that you wanted to add to the record at thlis time? MR. BRESSLER: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Ok. I believe there's a lady in the back on my left- hand side that would like to say something. MRS. CATHERINE FARR (Southold Citizens For Fair Government): Are you going to take statements on this hearing after the ~nformation ~has been completed? _ CHAIRMAN: Yes. MRS. FARR- Thank you. Then I'll wait till then. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for waiting. CHAIRMAN: All right, basically~ 'I guess we've gotten to the point where we wanted to discuss a couple of issues with the Building Inspectors. So I'll ask Mr. Lessard if he would step up to the mike and raise his right hand. Mr. Lessard, the information you are about to bring forth to this Board is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MR. LESSARD (raised right hand): Yes. CHAIRMAN: Is there anything you wanted to state for the record concerning this case? ~ MR. LESSARD: Because of pending legal activities or action that's pending, if you would, I'd make a statement that would encompass that part of the project that would be -- to where I would consider where the Board of Appeals would be involved and it may have to address it. It would go that way. And that would be probably some time in early September or late August when Mr. Zahra came into my office and he had a terrible problem. That he could not fr-ame the roof affair to meet the existing apartment roof. And I said that at the time, Mr. Zahra, you 'have stamped set of plans from an engineer or'an architect. ,That's the people you should be talking to because the Building Department is not in the business of designing buildings. And he said, "Oh I can't talk to that stubborn GD Greek because he won't do what I want him to. And he said my problem is the new roof that I have to Page 4 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES'ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3,. 1988 MR. LESSARD (continued)' frame will not meet the old one~" That's quite obviously because the ceilings are too low ..in the existing building along with the windows and it would have to be picked .up, And he said, '"Do you suppose I could open up parts of..the accessory apartment and put in 2 x 6's?" And I said roi.him.something to the effect that it is a nonconforming apartment. You'have to be careful you don't exceed the value of the. 50%.. And he said, "Well, I really don"t know what to do." And I said, ~What you have ~t.o do as far as concerned is to go back to your engineer and do whatever you have to." And he left. This was in the morning around l0 o'clock. Early in the afternoon, Mr~ Horton had returned from being on the road, and he said to me, he said, "Was Mr. Zahra in?~' And I said, "Yeah." I~m sorry- he said is ~'Charlie~" in? I said, "Yes, he was this morning. And he said~Did you make any arrangements with him?" And I said "No. What. What the hell is the matter?"' And he said he took the whole top of the building off. So he went back and spoke to Charl. ie, and I guess he got the impression from Charlie and you're going to have to ask Mr. Horton this to verify it, but from what I was told, Charlie .told him that I said that he can do anything he wants. And I said to Curt, Mr. Horton, "You know damn well that nobody in the Building Department to okay getting rid of nonconformity and putting it back." Ok? I guess a Stop Order was issued, wh~ther the first one was torn up or not, I'don't know. It's hearsay, and i'm not going to say that The end result, and Mr. Horton could probably tell you the sequence, Mr. Bressler came in early in the..morning 8:30,ish maybe the following day, the following Monday or w.hatever. He wanted to talk to Mr. Horton because he'can't talk to that damn Lessard, which is perfectly fine with me. And when he left, "I said to Mr. Horton, well what's the end result?" He said he explained to Mr. Bressler that because the top was taken off the plans that the permit was issued for no longer pertain. He would have to go out and get another revised set of plans, and bring them back in again, and Mr. Bressler said fine or something to that effect, I guess. And he would be back. Further down th~ road, we got reports that Mr. Zahra was back working again and I had no choice but because he wouldn't stop, I revoked the permit. Ok? The only other thing that I would say was from that day in early September until now, nobody has come in with the revised plans. Nobody has ever told those people they couldn't have their restaurant. Nobody has filed with the N.Y.S. Board of Review on whatever problem he has there. No one has come into the Building Department to ask if they could make the building safe. Page 5 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD (continued): Nobody has gone to your Board pertaining to the Accessory Apart- ment if that is what this is all about. And that's about I can say. If I can answer anything, I'll be glad to, provided it doesn't go into that legal area. CHAIRMAN: Well, you're going to have to stop me if it does. MR. LESSARD: All right. Yes, I'll try. CHAIRMAN: And I want the public t-O be aware of the fact that thoughts that I have perceived are mainly thoughts that resurrected or illicited from the last hearing, and ~%hey were not specifically anything that I had derived from reading the minutes. And I'll be honest with you, I purposely did not read the minutes. Ok? There was a discussion made ~y the applicant, and I think it was some~ where in that area of that day that Mr~ Zahra came in~ and he reflect~d.'the phrase raising the roof~ Ok? I just wanted to ask you first, if somebody mentioned to you, Mr. Lessard, "I have to raise the roof." What would that mean to you? MR. LESSARD: That could mean one of two things. Either to take the roof apart and out a new one onto it, or it could be as was suggested that the building itself could be picked up and added onto on the bottom, depending what the condition is. CHAIRMAN: Ok. My only question is, at no time were you ever with the thought'that this entire second story was go.lng to be demolished? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely not. perfectly clear. I thought I had made myself CHAIRMAN: Ok. So basically the reason for the Stop Work Order was because of that severing of that second story? MR-. LESSARD: Once that noncon{ormi'ty was removed, then the plans as submitted no longer pertain and by law, you have to come in and show us know~, what are you doing. _ Then what you want to do from this point on, legally be done. You have to meet the State Construction Code regardless. So there is no choice. He did something we had no authority to say, :"'Fine~ Just keep right on going." We had no choice in that department but stop it. Page 6 Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD (continued): And that's what we did. But when he refused to stop it, then we have no choice but to revoke the permit. CHAIRMAN: To your knowledge based upon the New York State Construction Code, which I believe is the Code that's in effect and that you more or less relied on, ok. MR. LESSARD: Yes~ CHAIRMAN: What's required for new construction on the second story of a wood-frame building in a business zone for utiliza- tion of that second story either for - MR. LESSARD: If you are talking a new building, ok, a new building in a Type 5 or wood construction~ flammable material if you would, is not permitted to go any higher than one story. As far as the public is concerned, If it is an existing building, the State cannot say anything except the way it's constructed to meet the safety regulations. Once it is removed, it now becomes.a new bui.]ding. Then you must meet today's requirements, and the State Construction Code says in a Type V, no way can you have an apartment over the quarters over it--must be a 'Type II combustible and a whole mess of other stuff. CHAIRMAN: Just for my own personal edi. fication, What about the utilization of it for a bus.tness pu.~pose on the second floor. Would it have to meet'the handic, aP law and all the rest of it? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. Absolutely. You would have to probably design some type of elevator and put it in there for that. As it stands today.. There may be modifications shortly, but as it is now. CHAIRMAN: I thank you Very muah, Mr.. [essard, That kind of answers my questions. I guess we get to the approach-approach conflict at this particular time, and I do see the Town Attorney in the audience, and do you feel you want to answer any questions from the applicant at this particular time? Page 7 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD: I'd have to know what the question is and what it would involve. Something other than this part of the hearing that involves this Board. CHAIRMAN: All right. Then maybe what we'll do is we'll ask you to sit down and we'll see, maybe we'll get you back up again and we thank you, and we'll ask Mr. Horton if he would step us to the mike for a couple of moments. CURTIS HORTON, SR. BUILDING INSPECTOR: Stood up at the microphone. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Horton, would y~ raise your rig'ht hand and solemn-y swear? MR. HORTON: I do. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. There came a time during the hearing - the last hearing, they discussed the erection of a cement-block wall on the east side. Can you kind of give us some background on that? MR. HORTON: All right, I will try to inform everybody to the best of my knowledge~ This so.-called fire wall, cement-block wall-- I donLt care what we call %t. For the first off, when. the foundation was put into this build~ng-.-I don'-t, know what, rainstorms or what-- the easterly wall collapsed. We were called. We were sent up there. We went up and we observed Russ , he was there, and the wall was all collapsed then. At this time Mr. Zahra said some few things~ and he said something about me like to expand the upstairs if he could and everything like that. Well this is a no-no because the way the permit w.as. issued. So I did make the suggestion that we=-why don~t you go for a firewall 'because you will be too close to another wood.-.frame building, the Broken Down Velice. It would be less than lO -feet. And I said if you boarded it up, it wouldn=t cost you any more money. You're down to the ground--footings now~-start it up and this would be in your favor if you wanted to go to the Board of Review. And this you will see on the set of plans., We talked about it. We wrote it down there, and everything was done this way. He agreed specifically because we told him this was just a suggestion. He didn't have to do it. And it would be to his advantage because we have been to the Board of Review before--in fact there's a man in this audience right now that was there with us and he knows what we're talking about. When you go to that and you lay the facts on, they do_ give you breaks. I'm not saying they give it to you, but they do give you breaks. So this is 2ust a suggestionb He agreed to go with. I'm not saying it cost him any more money or any less money, I don't know. That's not my job~ But this is how it came about. Nobody s6id he had to do it. CHAIRMAN: Does this fire wall have to go all the way to the second story o.r ~s it mainly .just for the first floor? Page 8 Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA- Appl. No. 3701 Special Meetin of March 3, 1988 C. HORTON: It was to go above the other broken down -- there's a one-story building next to it. It was to go above that, which it did. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see, so you mean Hke half way up the roof.. C. HORTON: It wasn't what we filled in, because it was a kitchen. He might have wanted to go this. I don't know what he wanted. He just said he would like to enlarge what he was doing, like a deck or anything, I don't know. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: During the actual granting of this permit, did you have any reservations in reference to the preexisting use of the building? C. HORTON: I was not involved in the granting of this permit. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I am aware of that, but did you have any · feelings about the preexisting use of the second story? C. HORTON: Yes, we all knew what we were doing, we are not Hke that. There is reservation when you have a nonconforming use. And there are certain restrictions, you've got to be careful of. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I thank you very much. I think that is all I have. Thank you Mr. Horton. Is there anything you would like to say in rebuttal Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: No, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly like some questions put to Mr. Lessard either from me or through you. I think his statements certainly raised a number of issues that lead to the investigations. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I ask you a favor Mr. Bressler, could you use that mike over there and we will put Mr. Lessard back up over here and,. if he wouldn't mind, and a, what we will do here is, you will ask the questions to the dais, if you would, the Board and then if he feels that he can answer them, he'll attempt to answer them. MR. BRESSLER: Surely. In the first instance, I believe Mr. Lessard testified in late August, early September this problem arose. I would like him to pinpoint for the Board, if he could, the time when it first came to his attention that'.. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In reference to what. MR. BRESSLER: That the second story had been removed, when last August or early September, was this worked on, that is my question. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You mean in reference to a chronological date, time? Page 9 -Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. BRESSLER: That is .right, all I got was August, September. When did it come down and this problem arise, that is my first question. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you answer that... MR. LESSARD: I tried to pinpoint it as close as I could Mr. Chairman because, at the time I thought everybody understood and I didn't put that much thought into the matter after it was discussed. I didn't figure it was a problem, I didn't see nothing wrong with it and I have got a million other things to do, it was just another one of those things during the day. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. MR. BRESSLER: I would like to know ff a note or record was made of this occurrence, which would help the Board in ascertaining when it is claimed that the taking down of the second story in this conversation occurred. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You' mean, is there some note in the file that would be able to, that would allow this gentleman to refresh his memory at this particular time? MR. BRESSLER: Precisely Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well the only thing that we can do in that particular case is to take a three (3) minute recess and allow the Building Inspector to refresh his memory for that particular incident or action or occurrence, or whatever you want to call it at this particular time. And we will see if, and that is the only !hing I can do at this point. You know, I just want you to remember, although we are on the structure of somewhat of a tribunal, this is not a tribunal in that respect. We are trying to water it down to a certain degree. I am not an attorney, although I spent a beck of a lot of time. in court, I was never trained in that particular area. I wish that you would bear that in mind, okay. So, with everybody's indulgence and seeing, I would hope, Mr. Lessard that you know, I understand and I didn't think the specific questions of this nature were going to be answered or asked rather, of the, to the BOard for your response, but we will take a short recess and we will ask Mr. Lessard if he can answer this. MR. LESSARD: I don't see any bearing on whether that happened on a Monday or Tuesday, but I will give it my best shot. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. We will make that motion for about a three (3) minute recess gentlemen. MEMBER GRIGONIS: Second. All in favor -AYE. Page 10 Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl;~ No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 (Recess--tape off. ) CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I make a motion reconverdng. MEMBER GRIGONIS: Second. All in favor - AYE. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you still going with the same question? MR. BRESSLER: Yes, I would like to know if Mr. Lessard found anything? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:Could you, thank you sir. MR. LESSARD: As far as I can tell, from my records, okay, the first I became aware of the second floor disappearing was somewhere, probably in the week of the 20th of September. I can't pinpoint it any closer than that, I am sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. MR. LESSARD: That is when Mr. Horton made me aware of a problem in Mattituck, I don't go to Mattituck. MR. BRESSLER: I would like the Board to ask Mr. Lessard if he is aware of whether or not the approved plans call for a -new roof structure? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. How else can you add on sir without putting the roof? And you can't put a roof on unless it is new. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If I might just ask a question, are we talking about the roofing material or are we talking about the roof rafters, is basically, you know. Are we talking about. MR. LESSARD: I am assuming that he is referring to new roof rafters. on the part that is going to be added on. I don't know what he is after. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want to basically .... MR. BRESSLER: His understanding is exactly right, the new roof rafters and those items which go upon it. And I take it that answer is yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the addition or for the existing roof. MR. BRESSLER: A new roof over the entire structure, and I take it the answer is yes, as shown on the plans. Page ]] - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing. Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD: Not as indicated on the plans as I determined. I got the impression that that area that existed may in all probably get a new asphalt roof to go with the rest_ of what was added on. I don't know how technical that is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that is basically what my question was. MR. BRESSLER: Well, I would ask then as to whether or not Mr. Lessard was familiar with what the existing construction of the roof was, as opposed as what is shown on the plans. And I submit to the Board that it is evident from comparing the two, that there is a new roof shown on the plans. If you look at two by-eights (2 x 8's) and two by sixes (2 x 6's), which I am advised were not there. I don't see how any other conclusion could be drawn. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want to say anything about that Mr. Lessard? MR. LESSARD: That may be as it is. That is up to the engineer or the architect to take care of. What I studied on that roof plan indicated that it was feasible according to the State Code and that is what my job is. The responsibility of whether the roof is framed properly is dependent upon the engineer or the architect. According to the education law, the executive law, it is up to the architect on all commercial buildings. Has to be there, that is the object of it. I don't know. where this is going to as far as voiding the permit or whatever he has asked to reverse the decision on. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you want to say something Mr. Horton? 'MR. HORTON: Yes, I would like to know if somebody else can whi~perin somebody else's ear, can I go whisper in Vic's ear? MR. ZAHRA: If you want to pay them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, wait a minute... MR. LESSARD: If we are going to turn this into a circus sir, I think I have given you sufficient information for this Board to come to a determination. If we are going to turn this thing into a circus, I have nothing else to say. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman I object strenuously to those remarks. belived I have asked questions in good faith which go to the heart of these issues. And I think that as you, Mr. Chairman, put it at the last meeting, we are trying to get down to the bottom of things here, and I will state for the record that my client and I both cannot appreciate those remarks. And we reiterate the fact that they are asked strictly 'in good faith and in an effort to get to the bottom of things here. I don't believe that this is turning into a circus by any means. It is a very serious matter and I would like to proceed Mr. Chairman. Page 12 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3~01 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, would you do me a favor though.. MR. ZAHRA: Excuse me one second. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR. ZAHRA: I would just like to apologize to the Board and the group for the outburst. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you sit down Mr. Zahra there. I-realize that there are times you might have to confer with your attorney, but, you kind of left me on a cliff hanging here, Victor, and you just have to help me understand this. In other words, although the plans say that they call for a new roof, meaning new roof rafters and so on and so forth, okay. You did not specifically think that they were going to replace anything other than the shingles on the existing part of the roof? MR. LESSARD: That is the common practice sir, but that's between him and his architect, not between him and the Building Department. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, I see, okay. So, you thought he was only going to add on the addition, which was only, only the addition was going .to be the new roof, which was the part which we referred to as a reverse gable, coming off on the east side facing the "Broken Down Valice". MR. LESSARD: That's right sir. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. Mr. Bressler? Exeus'e me, I just had-to clear that issue up in my own mind. MR. BRESSLER: Thank you. That is exactly the point. I would now request the Board to inquire of Mr. Lessard whether whether or not he is aware of whether the plans as submitted and approved, called for a consideration and possible replacement of structural members at the time .the renovation proceeded fo the point where these structural members became apparent to the builder? Is Mr. Lessard aware of whether or not the plans provided for that eventuality. MR. LESSARD: If you are referring to that statement in the plans sir that say, that any wood that is deteriated would be replaced, I would also point out to' this Board, I have not, I, the Building Dept. have seen no reports from any engineers specifying what should be replaced and that is where it belongs. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: May I assume that the answer to my question is yes, that Mr. Lessard is aware of something in the plans which provides for that eventuality. Page 13 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD: Plus the procedure that has to be gone through, yes, absolutely. MR. BRESSLER: I would now ask whether there came a time, whether Mr. Lessard had a conversation with Mr. Zahra concerning the deteriorated oondition of the first floor members in this building and what had to be done to correct them. MR. LESSARD: Not to my recollection. He may have talked with Mr. Horton about it, but he didn't talk to me. MR. BRESSLER: If he didn't talk to Mr. Lessard,: was a conversation with Mr. Horton relayed to Mr. Lessard, wherein a conversation took place regarding the replacement of first floor members? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you remember any, Mr. Horton?. MR. HORTON: Itdo, yes. MR. LESSARD: I did not have a conversation with Mr. Horton on this, other than the fact that when I went on that job, the second or third time, all the first floor members had been removed and done anew. And I asked Mr. Horton what is going on here. And that is the sum total of the rotten wood or whatever you are referring to. CHAIRMAN GoEHRINGER: Would you therefore want to ask that question of Mr. Horton? MR. BRESSLER: Yes, I think I got an affirmative response. MR. LESSARD: Is he done wiih me sir? I'm not going to play yo-yo here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How many more questions do you have? MR. BRESSLER: Not too many, but I think.it depends in part on Mr. Lessard's answers. My next question is, didn't there come a time before the second floor members were removed that Mr. Lessard had a conversation with Mr. Zahra, concerning the rotten s.econd floor members? . MR. LESSARD: No sir, we had no conversation. And I want the Board at this point to understand something. Mr. Horton is a Senior Building Inspector. Mr. Horton is well trained in his job. Mr. Horton doesn't have to come in and report every nail and splinter to his boss. If he did that two things would happen; Mr. Horton wouldn't be able to do the rest of his work, and neither would Mr. Lessard. So, let us not get a little ridiculous on this. What else would you like to know sir. Page 14 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Lessard were you present at the sight when a discussion was had in respect to the fire wall in the foundation on this building? -_. MR. LESSARD: I was sir, yes. .-.. - MR. BRESSLER: And wasn't the question of whether or not the first floor members were rotten and had to be replaced discussed at that time? MR. LESSARD: Not that I was aware of, not that I was aware of. I know that Mr. Horton and Mr. Zahra went off, all over and conversed while I was doing something else. And I know that Mr. Horton advised him, advised him, that it would be to his best interest to put that wall up, and that is all I know about that.. MR. BRESSLER: .Well, Mr. Lessard did you have occasion to look at first floor members while you were down at the building? MR. LESSARD: I did not. I was standing on the first floor, but I didn't look underneath the first floor, no sir. MR. BRESSLER: Well, did you look around the first floor.? MR. LESSARD: Absolutely. MR. BRESSLER: Was it apparent to you at that time that there were structural members that needed replacement? 'MR. LESSARD: They were already replaced when I Was there. MR. BRESSLER: At that time, did you have occasion to view the second story members at all? MR. LESSARD: Yes. MR. BRESSLER: And what did you note? MR. LESSARD: That they were new. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think he is referring to... MR. LESSARD: When I looked at that, there were new timbers added. You may call them ceiling joists, you may call them second floor joists, and technically that is what they would be. At the time, I observed the second floor now suspended with "I" beams. I don't know what else you want me to observe. MR. BRESSLER: Were you told by Mr. Horton that this had been discussed with Mr. Zahra and it was approved? Page 15 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD: What was sir? MR. BRESSLER: The fact that there was new construction. MR. LESSARD: I don't understand~ your question. Did I discuss... MR. BRESSLER: Did you discuss the matter of the new construction with Mr. Horton? And were you told by Mr. Horton that he had discussed it with Mr. Zahra? MR. LESSARD: No, I didn't. I just pointed out to Mr. Horton that I observed everything brand new on the first floor and I wanted to know what was going on. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just again, to the Board and not specifically to the.. MR. BRESSLER: 'Yes, that is the case Mr. Chairman, and everything was new and Mr. Lessard didn't know what was going on and he didn't get a satisfactory explanation. I don't understand why the job proceeded at that point. There is something, let me just state Mr. Chairman, there is something inherently inconsistent about this. According to what we've heard, the Building Department goes down there, .they see all these new things going on, they are not part of the plan, Mr. Lessard doesn't bring it to Mr. Zahra's attention, he presumably has a discussion with Mr. Horton. If it is not cleared by Mr.' Horton, and I haven't heard that it was, and there is no violation issued, and Mr. Zahra goes on his way with no approval and there is no stop work issue. Yet, the Board is lead to believe that at some point, the story which has been put forth tonight comes out, and then all-of a sudden he does something else without approval, and he is told to stop. This doesn't make any sense to me Mr. Chairman. And what I am trying to find out is, what happened at the first meeting when everybody had found out that things had been done anew. No new plans were requested, no stop work were issued. There is something eternally inconsistent, that is my point. And I would invite the Chair to ask any questions it has on the subject because apparently I am not to find out exactly what happened here. And I don't have any more questions along this line. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. LESSARD: All I can say to the Chair, is I observed everything new. I observed that what was new, was in conformity as far as the layout is concerned with the floor plan, okay. Obviously, the attorney doesn't know that much about construction and I can understand that. I observed two things--that what was put up there is what was shown on the plan, and that it was all new. And I questioned the fact that it was new with Mr. Horton, and it is nobody's business but me and Mr. Horton, unless we agree that Page 16 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHR'A - ApPl. No. 3~0i Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR.LESSARD (con't.): something was severly wrong, okay? MR. BRESSLER: In that case, Mr. Chairman I would just put forth a proposition.. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you Mr. Lessard. MR. BRESSLER: . .if that is so, and that if everything that was put up that was new was done in accordance with the plans, and that was okay with the Building Department~, and certainly you know from the last hearing, our position, that that had been discussed in advanced and approved, and that that didn't require new plans. It is our position that with respect to the second story, which was also discussed and which was also a new construction and which by the way is also going to be in exactly the same place, I think we have just heard from the microphone that that too would be perfectly okay. MR. LESSARD: Nonconformity. MR. BRESSLER: I am at a loss Mr. Chairman, I don't have any more questions of Mr. Lessard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. BRESSLER: Now, with respect to Mr. Horton, I just have one or two questions following up on the one that you indicated properly was put to him. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you answer those, assuming that they are within the scope? Thank you Mr. Horton. MR. HORTON: Yes, I would like to answer. First off, I would like to say something to Mr. Bressler and like that. There is a little misunderstanding here. He made a statement about floor joists and like that, he didn't say where and what. I assume the second floor joist. To tell you the perfectly honest truth, I have never been down inside that cellar, because I can't fly down. I'm not Batman or anybody else. That cellar is pretty deep, there is no ladder, nothing when I had been there, and I've never been down in the cellar to see all the timbers and everything that was put in there. The new part you can see, what the old part is, I haven't got the slightest idea, unless somebody buys me a shyhook. That is No. 1, No. 2 is, what I thought he was referring to is either the second floor joist from the second story. And what had happened there, I had pulled in there, one of my times that I pulled in for inspection, and Charlie says I want to talk with you. I said what about. He said I had these old beams laying around my place, and he said the upstairs I think was a little weak, do you mind if I put these in there? Well, if you take a look at what was there and what he put in there, he wants to double them up. He says that gives me more because of that fish plate, it is a little more stronger. Which I agree with. If Page lY - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. HORTON (con't.): anybody wants to overbeam something, fine. He did it on his own and everything else after was done. I did tell, afterwards that everything was fine. I mean, what can you say after a man's done something like this. At that time, the second story was sitting on there and nothing was done above the floor joists, the second floor joists. He did beef them up, which is great, you can go up there and see them today. I don't know how long he he said they were laying around, that's why they were a little discolored, a grey color, but they were a new joists he said he had had at home, or storyed somewhere, but I don't know where. And that is what I would like to square away about the new floor joists. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you the same question I asked Mr. Lessard and that was, based upon the plans, you know, when, during the period of time that there was some minor modifications or anything, did you have any idea that they were actually going to destroy that second floor. MR. HORTON: Not at all, until I drove up there, I don't know the 25th or the 21st of September and I looked and I couldn't believe what I saw, there was no top. I had a call previous to this, you ought to go to Mattituck and see what is going on, there was no top. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but I mean, based upon the plans, did you think... MR. HORTON: No, it wasn't showed, they were to come out toward the street a little bit, and they wanted to change the stairway and go towards the "Broken Down Valice", with the stairway down there, and that's the only thing that I know. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am not trying to add to the questions of tonight I assure you, I just am trying to get this straight in my mind, Mr. Bressler? MR. BRESSLER: My next question of Mr. Horton is whether or not he ever had a conversation with Mr. Zahra about other than the beams supporting the second floor, as to whether he ever had a conversation with Mr. Zahra about replacing structural members in the walls. MR. HORTON: MR. BRESSLER: first ..... MR. HORTON: The second story, I was never upstairs. of getting there after he tore everything out. MR. BRESSLER: How about the first floor? What walls are we referring to? Why the walls of this building, let us start with the There is no way Page 18 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - APPi~ No. 3~'~i Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. HORTON: And if he checked, Mr. Tsontakis, your engineer, he said in a report he couldn't see, he had to take a flashlight. He didn't even know what was there. He was. your engineer. MR. BRESSLER: How about the first floor walls, did you ever have a discussion with him about the rotted and deteriorated ... MR. HORTON: Not so much the rotted and deteriorated, he mentioned a couple of fish plates, which he was changing. He beefed them up for what they called for, in fact, if anybody looks at these set of plans, they are not a good set of plans. You can build by them, if you know how to build. Charlie says he is a good builder, but they are not a complete set of plans MR. BRESSLER: Were they approved? MR. HORTON: They were approved, but if you read the thing, how it was issued, it was for alteration and like that. It doesn't say a new building. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Horton... MR. HORTON: And please check the permit and you will see what it says. MR. BRESSLER: The plans do reflect the existence of a new roof, do they not? MR. HORTON: And may I ask a question? What set of plans do you have there? Are they have been approved as Building Department or one you dragged out of a brief case? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, wait a minute, let us not get counterproductive. We did run into this problem before in reference to different sets of plans because one was photocopied and one was a straight set, okay. I am in hopes that we are dealing with the set that reflects 8/8/86. MR. HORTON: Our plans will have a stamp of the Building Department on there, what you can do and everything else. Any other plans don't pretend to this building. BOARD SECRETARY: We don,t have an original. We have the photocopies of the original of the building. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is one we have. That is the one we are going on, we believe it is the original, but it's just not stamped. It is a copy of the original. MR. HORTON: We have a stamped set. Page 19 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing. Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. BRESSLER: They do look to be the same, don't they? one. The answer is yes. MR. HORTON: MR. BRESSLER: MR. HORTON: in front of us? That's the The one you have been showing your hand over there? Yes. That one over there? The one that you have been waving MR. HORTON: to. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want a copy of ours, Curt? No, I am talking about that one, that he been referring MR. BRESSLER: That has been shrunk, that is all. MR. ZAHRA: Eric, I have that one here that he has been referring to. If he wants to see that one, here it is. MR. HORTON: I want to see the one Mr. Bressler was showing through the air. He had been referring to. MR. ZAHRA: There's no difference in them. MR. BRESSLER: It is the same as the one the Board has, only'.... MR. HORTON: Then I'd like to have an engineer look at it. MR. BRESSLER: The Board has already looked. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, I mean, he wants to have an engineer look at it, so. MR. HORTON: To see if it is the same. I am not going to be qualified to do it. MR. BRESSLER: Well, in that case you can look at the one the Board has and answer the questions, it doesn't matter to me. MR. HORTON: I'm not referring to that, you didn't wave that one in the air. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman, if the witness would like to look at the Board's plans and answer the question that's perfectly okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just bring those plans up so I can compare them 'with the same plans that we have here. No, it is basically this newer set here that you have. The ones that aren't sun-bleached. (Reviewing plans) They appear to be the same set of plans, Mr. Horton, except that they lack the engineer's seal on ours, okay. Page 20 Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. LESSARD: What about our stamps Jerry? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, yours are on the copy of the of yours, okay, we had to reduce it. MR. LESSARD: Well, I mean his. MR. BRESSLER: What about what. MR. LESSARD: The object of putting plans to the Building Dept. is to--the Building Dept. to mark up what is required, not to take them back to the client and have them throw them somewhere and do, and work off plans that... CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are referring to the individual pencil marks that you've placed on the plans, I assume. MR. LESSARD: The red ink marks CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The red ink marks MR. LESSARD: The stamp and the rest of it, and the rest of it, absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I had one--the copy that we have of yours, which again is shrunk, has the fees on it, the fee evaluation in longhand and it has some writing, which I think appears to be yours. MR. BRESSLER: Mr. Chairman, in order that we may get on with this and not get bogged down on things that are not relevant, here is a stamped .set we've got. The Board can see... CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just see that? MR. BRESSLER: It is the same, only that they are very difficult to read because they are faded. So.. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is the original set Curt, if you want to take a look, alright? MR. HORTON: All right, thank you. All right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want to take a look at them while you are standing there. MR. HORTON: No, I'd have To compare ours with that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: and it shrunk. MR. HORTON: All right. Well, this is yours, okay. We just copied it Page 21 Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you want to continue sir. MR. BRESSLER: The question was concerning the new roof and that is when the dispute about the plans came up. I want to know, and Mr. Horton is certainly free to refer to the plans, as to whether or not it demonstrates the existence of a new roof? MR. HORTON: As far as if you look on the plans, there is a point where Mr. Tsontakis put on where it will start from new to old. It doesn't say all new, there is no where it says it will replace certain things. I don't see that. It doesn't say you will put all new timber in, no where. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Horton, am I correct... MR. HORTON: If it did say... Let me add something, if it did say, somebody in this room is awful stupid to go to all that trouble to put "I" beams up there and keep a second story up there, if he is going to tear it all down. MR. BRESSLER: Well, Mr. Horton, how old is this "Coffee Pot" building? MR. HORTON: I couldn't tell you. I don't know, it was there before I was born, I would say. MR. BRESSLER: Not too old. MR. HORTON: No, I don't think that comes into the thing. MR. BRESSLER: Well, were roofs made.with plywood construction back then? MR. HORTON: Pardon? MR. BRESSLER: Were roofs made with plywood construction back then? MR. HORTON: I don't know if roof was of plywood construction, I never saw it exposed. Everytime I ever saw it, it had facial boards on it and it had shingles on it. And I think blueish wood shingles on the outside, I am not quite sure about that. I would have to check. MR. BRESSLER: Well, my question to you is, buildings weren't constructed generally that way were they, back then, with plywood? Page 22 - Transcript of Z.B..A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. HORTON: Well, it depends, if things, it might have been remodeled at one time, who knows, I don't know when the last roof.. A lot of people, I know when I was a builder .I used to put plywood on the roof, I don't know what was underneath there, I never saw it tore up. It was gone. There wasn't even evidence on the ground. MR. BRESSLER: I don't that think I have any more questions from Mr. Horton, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank you Mr. Horton. If anybody else would like to speak in favor of this application, again, we ask again if there are spokespersons concerning specific groups or just individuals. I know this lady had a question here, yes ma'am? Could you use the mike please and kindly state your name for the record? CATHERINE FARR: I represent a group, my name is Catherine Fart. represent the Southold Citizen's for Fair Government. We are at 25 Sterlington Commons in Greenport and I would like you to read the position of our group. The pressure for expansion and development in Southold Town is tremendous. The volume of applications handled twenty-five (25) years ago has probably quadrupled. Thousands of Rems of local ordinance and legislation have been added piecemeal over the past twenty-five (25) years. Elected and appointed local officials are inundated by conflicting demands from constituants.' There are a lot of problems, problems of water supply, problems of land use, sewage treatment, garbage disposal, management of waterways, all are extemely difficult to resolve. We ask our public_ officials, part-time employees for the most part, to judge with the wisdom of Solomon, yet we the voters confront them with withering confusion of priorities. We only offer objections to our own little problems, rarely taking the time for just passionate study of the complete picture. That job is left to "government", such as yourselves. In return, we offer perilously low pay, and lots of criticism. We selected Mr. Zahra's case, as a case in point. Because it is well documented. It illustrates a number of problems now typical between the Town and its individual citizens, specifically these: 1) Conflicting interpretation of rules. ~ Probably the rules are not as clear as they should be, and training and review is inadequate to ensure consistent interpretation. 2) The system is too slow to respond, due most likely to concern that cases be throughly examined to avoid illegal decisions. Perhaps it must be streamlined to offer quicker resolutions. For example, the legal justice system sets up a separate court to manage minor traffic violations and such. Serious crimes receive a slower, more intensive examination of cases, in a different court with different rules. 3) The system punishes a citizen without due process before he receives a hearing. Whether Mr. Zahra gains relief from the defective stop work order or not, he has been punished. BY order of Page 23 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MS. FARR (con't.): the Building Dept., the building has stood open to the elements without a roof since mid-October. Deterioration is evident. No doubt he has also lOst money due purely to the delay. Time as they say is money. 4) Lack of priorities. The determination of priority should be established to move disputes through the system with greater dispatch. 5) Adoption by local governing bodies of the legal concept innocent until proven guilty. We propose that citizens should be judged innocent, unless proven guilty in local civic disputes, as well as criminal ones. Lack of proof, failure to present proof and to do so properly should result in automatic dismissal of cases, as it is done so in criminial area. 6) Lack of accountability. The superivsory body, which should monitor the conduct of the Building Dept., is the Town Board. In the press of business, there appears to be little regular advice or consultation between the members of the Building Dept. and the Town Board. One member of the Town Board is present at this hearing. We look to the full Board to take up the matter now and study this event, not with an eye to punishment, but with all eyes rivited on preventing this whole class of problems in the future. We look to the Zoning Board of Appeals for a streamlined procedure that is much faster than the cumbersome process we now have. We have a long way to go to achieve fair government in Southold. As it has been said, the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. We ask each of you members of the Zoning Board of Appeals to begin this journey by finding in Mr. Zahra's favor tonight. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. (Tape changed) CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: in favor of the application? application? Is there anybody else who would like to speak Anybody like to speak against the Excuse me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Could you come up, I am sorry, it is formality, we have to have you state your name and your... CORRINE GARCIA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, my name is Corrine Garcia and I would just like to speak as a taxpayer that I am thoroughly disgusted that I have to witness a Southold TOwn Attorney, just hired and paid by taxpayers, that I have to witness that he is outside during break discussing the case with a client and adVising him on what he could do to win the case. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak? You have something in rebuttal sir? Page - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter 2o~ CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 37'O1 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. BRESSLER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just like to make a few remarks in closing. First, I would like to resp~ond, just brieflY, to the remarks that were just made. I thinlk that they are completely out of order and I would note for the Chairman that to have the attorney for the Town talking to an attorney for an applicant about matters presently under consideration is, what I would consider to beconstructive rather than destructive. The content of what was discussed, of course, is nobody's business at-this point, but I would just note to the Board that attorneys for parties stop talking to each other, the legal system is going to go a little bit crazy. Finally, in summation, I would just like to point out to the Board that what it has before it, is a very simple and narrow issue. It has before it, the issue of whether the revocation of the building permit, based on two (2) grounds was proper: l) The violation of the stop work order and 2) Failure to comply with plans. I think based upon the testimony at the first session, we have heard nothing to the contrary tonight. That to the extent of the revocation is based on an alledged violation of a "stop work order", it must fall. And indeed no defense of that position was offered by either member of the Building Dept. I might add, that neither even claimed that the defects raised were not in fact there. I think that adequately disposes of the first ground. As for the second ground, that is failure to comply with plans, I would note first that I believe the process was defective in the first instance. There is no 'specification anywhere as to the regard in which the plans were not adhered to. And there has been no supplemental writing ever issued .settting forth in what respect the plans weren't adhered to. Assuming for a moment, if we get over that hurdle, We now come tO the issue of whether or not there is any competent evidence before the Board as to whether or not the plans actually were followed. And I don't believe that the Board has heard any tonight. What tl~e Board has heard from Mr. Lessard rather, is the statement that, when, during the course of construction, additions and substitutions were made to the first floor of the building and they generally fell within the parameters of the plan. But that was perfectly okay. I would put forth the proposition to the Board, that what was intended, with respect to the second floor, was exactly the same. And, if the position of the Building Dept. is to be consistent, and I am sure that it ought to be, that any renovation or replacement which falls within the same general outline, just as the first floor did, would be perfectly okay. We have not heard from the Building Inspectors any evidence concerning in what way the plans could be altered to show anything different. Indeed, they testified that the additions that they authorized and ratified, that is, the additional supporting members and the additional members on the first floor. They didn't stop work for that. They didn't .require him to submit additional plans, rather, they said that is fine. As Mr. Horton said, if you want to overbuild, that is perfectly okay. No request for new plans, no request to stop. No request to do anything. I would submit that the situation with respect to the second floor is identical, and that Page 25 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 3701 Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 MR. BRESSLER (con't.): no plan that they could ask for would be any different. It has already been admitted by Mr. Lessard that in fact the new roof was called for, so it cert_ainly couldn't be that. The walls, which by the way as you heard were to be brought up to code, were going to go in exactly the same place. And we have heard from Mr. Lessard that that ~s okay. I "don't believe that there is any evidence before the Board that any plans have been violated, in any respect. So, I think to the extent to the revocation is founded on that ground, it must fail. And, indeed gentlemen, those are the only grounds that were urged before you. While there have been, I note, several other issues tangentially swirling around this case, they haven't been addressed by the Building Dept., they haven't been addressed by us and formally, they haven't been addressed by you, and they are not before the Board 'tonight. Had they been brought before the Board tonight, then I daresay they would have been considered by us, by other people, and they would properly be before you. But there are only two (2) grounds before you and that is what your decision must be based on. And based on the evidence that we have heard tonight, I don't think there's any basis for sustaining the determination of the Building Dept. I would point out certain inconsistencies in the Building Department's testimony this evening. I would note that their testimony concerning the dates that this problem arose, are completely erroneous. The evidence you've heard is that the conversations and the demolition, with respect to the second floor of the removal took place in August. You will find that in the chronology. The building stood that way for quite a period, while Mr. Zahra was involved in other matters and was getting organized to proceed on the job. And there was a break in there of a good period and the Board can see exactly how long, for looking at 'the chronology. During that period of, and I don't recall exactly how long it was, but it would be apparent to you from looking, no action was taken. And indeed there was a conversation and I believe it was in July, nothing was done in July, nothing was done in August. They waited until September I don't know why. We haven't heard why. They're just in error about that. What caused them to do that, we haven't heard, they didn't volunteer. A complaint perhaps? I don't know. We have inquired of the Building Dept. if there was a complaint? Who complained? The answer we got back is, we don't have to tell you. And that's in writing and you will probably find that in your file, if the entire file was turned over to you. The Building Department's recollection of certain conversations is certainly interesting to say the least. I believe if the Board studies the testimony, they will find that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of the chronology which has been laid out before you. And I believe to sum up in total, there is no credible evidence before the Board that Mr. Zahra violated his stop work order or that he deviated from the plans, as approved by the Buiding Inspectors in any significant way.~ I would therefore urge the Board to reverse the determination of the Building Dept. and reinstate the building permit. And on those grounds and no other grounds. Page 26 - Transcript of Z.B.A. Hearing Matter of CHARLES ZAHRA - Appl. No. 37~Q~!.~ Special Meeting of March 3, 1988 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. This Board will go out and do a physical inspection of the premises. We have looked at it without measuring at this particular point. We will go out and do some measuring. And, we will also, I will also add to the record, because this particular hearing will stay open from a formality point of ~iew, until the next regularly scheduled meeting, which is the 17th. And inbetween now and the 17th, either the building inspectors or the Town Attorney or the applicant's attorney or the applicant may look at anything that we place in the file, based upon this physical inspection. And, I will go over your particular area's of chronology on the pictures and refresh my memory as to my personal instances, as they pertain to this building, which may or may not be placed in this area of personal knowledge and physical inspection. The only other thing I wanted to ask you Mr. Bressler, is that you did not furnish us two (2) deeds. We would like to see the deed from North Fork Bank & Trust Co. in to the property, which was from Edith and Joseph Langer to North Fork Bank & Trust Co. And then from North Fork Bank & Trust Co. to Charles Zahra and wife, or whomever. And, on that particular note... MR. BRESSLER: I will furnish them for you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. On that particular note, I will make a motion recessing the hearing for the formality for no further information on an oral sense, until the 17th, at which time, we will close the hearing. And, which will give us two (2) weeks to do the physical inspection. And, we thank you all for your curtesy ~onight and we thank the Building inspectors for coming down. And, I want to just close on this note and that is that the issue of the subpoena that was mentioned not only in the paper, and not only what I mentioned, it is basically an issue that was used of Mr. Bressler as basically a guarantee that they would be here. And, as you know, that you objected to the closing of the hearing, I'm sorry, you objected to the recessing of the last hearing, so I very simply used that as a secondary guarantee that these gentlemen would be here if need be. And in both cases, neither one of them are subpoenaed tonight, they came voluntarily and we thank you for that. So, I make the motion recessing the hearing and closing it with no further oral testimony on the 17th of March. And, again thank you everybody. ALL IN FAVOR - AYE. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you again for coming in. by Lorraine A. Miller (Transcribed by tapes recorded March 8, 1988.)