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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BO~qD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
February 25, 2010
10:00 a.m.
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - CHAIRPERSON/Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER AiNDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
VICKI TOTH - ZBA Secretary
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Patricia Witzke #6347 3-11
Elliott B. and Ora J. Heath #6351 12-35
Curtis-Harvey Revocable Trust #6348 36-44
Robert Anello #6370 45-62
Karnik and Haci Garipian ~6345 63-88
Christopher M. & Patricia F. McCarthy #6352 89-98
TFLC, Inc. ~6341 99-111
Harbes Family Farm, LLC #6106B 112-149
Paul T. Betancourt #6294 150-169
Marc and Deirdre Sokol #6318 170-203
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6347 - Patricia Witzke
MEMBER HORNING:
~Request for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
October 13, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed demolition and
construction of a single family dwelling, (1)
less than the code required front yard setback
of 35 feet, (2) less than code required rear
yard setback of 35 feet, at 280 Laurel Ave.,
Southold, NY. CTM: 56-3-3. Zone: R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you,
George.
Is someone here to represent this
application?
Would you please come to the mike and
would you state your name and spell it,
please, and your place of residence?
MR. WITZKE: Yes. william Witzke, W-I-T-
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
Z-K-E. My residence is 532 Laurel Avenue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Mr.
Witzke.
George, would you like to -- what we have
here are two variances before us. A front
yard setback for a proposed new dwelling after
demolition of 22.5 feet where the code
requires 35 feet and rear yard setback at 30
feet where the code requires 35 feet.
I'm going to give George an opportunity
to get in some questions, but would you like
to make some statements beforehand?
MR. WITZKE: Surely. My wife and I are
adjacent property owners right behind to the
side and rear of this piece of property. The
property in question was in my wife's family,
it was her parents' house. We had purchased
the property and the preexisting nonconforming
lot, which we were aware of,
is to put a house up there.
to build there. (Inaudible)
and our intention
Our son intends
and he did
everything as far as notifying the neighbors
as far as the -- what's going on and nobody
had any objections from the neighborhood.
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, how long has the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
house been vacant?
MR. WITZKE: My mother in law's been out
of -- my father-in-law's deceased. My mother-
in-law's been out of there (inaudible) two
years.
MEMBER HORNING: Is it basically
condemned?
MR. WITZKE: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: It looks that way.
MR. WITZKE: Actually.
MEMBER HORNING: And you, basically,
would propose a construction somewhat based on
existing footprint, but expanding upon that.
MR. WITZKE: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Let's see what other
board members have questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You want me to go?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Jerry, go
ahead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What was the
reasoning on pulling the house forward a
little more than pushing it back? In other
words, you're showing a 22-1/2-foot requested
front yard and a 31-foot rear yard. Is there
any particular reason why you didn't push it
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
back a little bit more?
MR. WITZKE: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
No?
MR. WITZKE: Not really, no. I don't
think (inaudible) in any way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there --
are you etched in stone on this? I mean, can
we, you know, move it around a little bit if
we have to?
MR. WITZKE: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What would be --
you're showing the 22-1/2 to the front
property line. How far do you think the front
property line is to the road? You got any
guesstimate on that?
MR. WITZKE: Now?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah. I mean is
there 6 feet to play with in reference to what
you would see --
MR. WITZKE: Probably -- it's not a very
big front yard. I would say about 25 foot
max.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it's another
2-1/2 feet to the actual road.
MR. WITZKE: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it just looks to
me like you're going to demolish a house
that's demolished already.
MR. WITZKE: Right, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and you're
building a modular-type of home, correct?
MR. WITZKE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So the foundation that
you currently have is not something you need
to save to put the home --
MR. WITZKE: No, the foundation --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- on?
MR. WITZKE: Right. Actually, as far as
the structure goes, unfortunately, there's
really nothing we can use at all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. WITZKE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I mean there's reason
that you couldn't move the house on the
property --
MR. WITZKE: Oh no.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- back and forth?
MR. WITZKE: That's right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: You can level the house,
grade, and place this thing where it would be
most fitting.
MR. WITZKE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It seems to me like
you're improving that rear yard setback now
from 21 to 30-some-odd feet. I don't know,
maybe I think your son probably has children
and they probably want a backyard.
MR. WITZKE: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So maybe the more the
better back there. It's still not a lot. I
guess the only way you'd be able is if you
made the units, the modular units smaller.
How do they come? Are these things that are
just kind of set in certain sizes that you
purchase?
MR. WITZKE: Not anymore, no. They can
be pretty much custom made any size you want.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You can within limits?
MR. WITZKE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean is there a
greater cost to that?
MR. WITZKE: That it don't know. My
son's been doing research, but I don't know --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
it's just almost like getting -- building a
house stick-built.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. WITZKE: You're almost unlimited as
far as dimensions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you're just calling
up the company and saying this is the size
house we want, they build
to you?
MR. WITZKE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it, and bring it out
It's not like a factory
that's making modular units, you know, say 20
by 40 modular units that are all on a field.
You go pick 'em out.
MR. WITZKE: Right. No, no.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. WITZKE: No,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
all I have.
It's not that?
no.
Okay.
I think that's
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, does anyone
else in the audience -- would anyone like to
speak to this application, in favor or
against?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just have a
question. The purpose of my question, Billy,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
was to say that you will grant -- you will
allow us to do alternate relief in reference
to the movement of setbacks one way or another
based upon --
MR. WITZKE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It is a democratic
vote. So, I mean, basically when I say, you
know, you need three votes to carry the thing
and it appears that you're going to have more
than that, at this point, but we're going to
determine what we think your front yard should
be or decrease the rear yard as, you know, as
we're so inclined.
I will say this, that having done some
modulars in my life, the more you decrease the
width of the house, the more difficulty you
have in putting hallways in to allow for
bedrooms on both sides, okay, particularly in
the downstairs area. So, you know, I have a
clear rule of thumb in reference to this, but
I can tell you from 29 feet down you're
somewhat limited in reference to the depth of
rooms as you get into that situation and so
I'm just throwing that out to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the record
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also show that we do have also in our file a
support letter from the neighbors.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So hearing no
further comment, I'll make a motion to close
this hearing, reserving judgment to a later
date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING #6351 - Elliott B. and
Ora J. Heath
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's October
16, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed additions and alterations to a single
family dwelling, (1) less than the code
required front yard setback of 35 feet, (2)
less than code required rear yard setback of
35 feet, at 500 Hippodrome Dr., Southold.
CTM: 66-2-13. Zone District R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, George.
Would you please state your name for the
transcript?
MR. HERMANN: Rob Hermann of En
Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road, Southampton,
New York 11968.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Rob. I
believe we're missing one green card. Do you
yet.
MR. HERMAN-N: It did not
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It
come yet.
has not arrived
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MR. HERMANN: We will
as it comes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
note of that. Okay.
MR.
forward it as soon
Okay, I'll make a
HERMANN: We seem to always be
missing one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
The annoying number.
Okay, what would you like to
about this application?
The magic number.
tell us
MR. HERMANN: Well, I'm trying to get
these applications I bring before you smaller
and smaller until you just tell me not to
bother, but here we are. This is a project
that has really been in the works for about
three years. Considerable time was spent in
the design phase for this project because we
have issues dealing with lot size and
configuration, preexisting house location,
roadway, easement, and wetlands associated
with Hippodrome Creek. So a great deal of
time was devoted to developing a design that
would provide the Heaths with the additional
space and dwelling configuration they needed
while maximizing the harmony of the project
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with both environmental and zoning
restrictions of several different regulatory
agencies.
The project that is before you today is
actually a downsized version of the original
project that was presented to and approved by
both the New York State DEC and the Town of
Southold Trustees and, ironically, it was
downsized before going to construction to
eliminate the need to come before you all.
What I will do is, just for a point of
reference, give you a copy of the originally
approved Trustees' plan, which has been since
amended to jive with what's before you, but
the two areas in yellow are what I will refer
to next.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll pass that
along and then we'll put it in the file.
MR. HERMANN: Okay. It should be in your
file already as part of the original Trustee
permit, but I'm just giving you a smaller
graphic so you know what I am about to
describe.
The original project that was approved by
both the Town Trustees and the DEC has
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
included that 12 by 14 (inaudible) addition to
the rear of the house that would have required
about 16 feet of relief from the rear property
line that is shared with Katherine Campbell.
Ms. Campbell had made some comments during the
public hearing phase of the Trustees'
application, some of which pertained really to
issues that aren't necessarily in the
jurisdiction of the Trustees' or your own, but
they involved issues relating to the easement
and where some of the non-disturbance buffer
plantings were going to go, and whether there
were some rocks that might be in the way, or
something, and those things were all
addressed, but more significantly the entire
aspect of the project that would have
increased the footprint of the house closer to
the Campbell property has been eliminated
entirely.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question?
So what you're saying is the portion that
we're looking at, that you just gave the
Chairperson, in yellow has been eliminated?
MR. HERMANN: That's right and the site
plan that you have as part of this application
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does not show those things. So this is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have both. We
actually do, I just checked.
MR. HERMANN: -- (inaudible) plan that
you're getting today. I just wanted you to
see what was eliminated between the time that
the Trustees, the Health Department, everyone
who was involved approved the project and
when it actually went to the building permit
phase, because as you are probably aware there
is construction ongoing on this house now
pursuant to a building permit.
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, could I ask then
was the building permit amended to reflect
that also?
MR. HERMAi~N: The -- when the building
permit application was filed, the plan had
been amended to eliminate those two additions.
They had also been eliminated -- they had also
been amended to eliminate the two portions of
the project for which we are before you today
and as those two things were a reduction in
the porch, which we are before you today in a
front yard. The porch is proposed to be 4-1/2
feet wide and achieves a 33-foot setback from
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Hippodrome Drive. That had been reduced to 3
feet so that a building permit could be
issued.
In the back of the house there is a -- if
you increase the second floor, sky rights as
the Building Department described it, and do
that in a way such that it aligns with the
first story, there is some very small portion
of relief that would be required and that is
shown on the site plan, and that is that right
triangle that I highlighted in yellow, which
has a total of 10.2 square feet that are
legally nonconforming and for which we request
relief.
Now, we are here for a 33-foot setback,
but because the angle of the property is such
to the house, the maximum relief needed is 2
feet, that 2 feet then dwindles down on an
angle to nothing. So the amount of square
footage that is actually nonconforming with
respect to the rear -- required rear yard is
only 10 square feet. When the Heaths went to
the Building Department in the fall they
redesigned the house to eliminate that. They
had also redesigned the porch so that we met
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35 feet in the front and, as I mentioned
already, they eliminated the bump-out toward
Campbell and the pergola and patio on
Campbell's side all for the purpose of not
having to come to the Zoning Board, which you
shouldn't take personally, but they wanted to
get the construction going.
I think what happened, and the Heaths are
here if you would for any reason want to hear
it from them directly, but I think what
happened is they began to second guess the
extent to which they had sacrificed some of
their design given the time and money they
were investing in this simply to avoid an
additional regulatory process, but -- so what
they did was they proceeded with construction
and then redesigned the house again to put the
foot and a half of porch back in the front and
to bring the design of the second story back
to what it originally had been with the plan
that we would come here, hopefully get what it
amounts really to marginal relief, and then go
to that point. Unfortunately, it has been
over three months from the time we filed the
application until now, so the Heaths were
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
faced with one last dilemma, of course, which
was do they continue to proceed with their
construction at full speed and eventually come
here asking you for permission to do something
they've already done or do they deliberately
delay and forestall construction so that that
didn't happen.
You will be happy to know that they chose
the later route. So while the work is ongoing
on the house, no work has actually been done
with respect to these two areas for which
relief is required. We would certainly hope
that's what all people in the town would do,
but nonetheless I commend the Heaths for
continuing what has been a record, since I've
known them, of working very hard on this
design to make sure that it is done in a way
that satisfies their needs without offending
any of their neighbors, for going at a real
conformance with the spirit of the various
codes.
What this space amounts to is an area in
their master bedroom which is a primary goal
of establishing this plan. In other words,
the raising of the roof -- there's already a
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
second story in the back of the house, but
they're lifting the roof in a way that will
accommodate probably what amounts to 30 or 40
additional square feet of useable space in
their master bedroom. Again, approximately 10
feet of which or 10 square feet of which is
nonconforming with respect to the required
rear yard.
What I argued in my application is that
the granting of this relief will produce no
change really whatsoever in the character of
the neighborhood and certainly will not impact
nearby properties due to the negligible
difference in the outward appearance of the
finished dwelling with relief, if you grant
it, versus that which has already permitted to
be constructed. From the road, it would
certainly be difficult to differentiate, let
alone perceive in an adverse way, a 4-1/2 foot
deep versus 3-foot deep porch and, obviously,
the usability of a porch that's at least 4-
feet wide is quite a bit better than one that
is only 3 feet wide. Similarly, the
difference in the view from the north, and
again this is from the Campbell property,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
there is already a second floor, there is
already an expansion of the second floor that
is permitted to continue underway and we're
really talking about a very, very small area
that I don't think anyone would really notice
the difference in, and with respect to
Campbell, who really is the only potentially
affected neighbor in this application, we
again have entirely eliminated what had been
an approved expansion into the rear yard
toward that property.
with respect to the impacts on the
environment, as I had mentioned and probably
don't need to go into great detail here, but
there was minor variance granted by the New
York State DEC for this project. The Trustees
granted approval. Again, both agencies
granted approval for a project with a greater
scope than what's before you now and as
mitigation there is a drainage system of
leaders, gutters, and drywells being added to
the property and there is a 10-foot non-turf
buffer that is being planted with native
vegetation between the easement that provides
a travel-way to the Campbell property and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
Heath's dwelling. So, in effect, even though
it's a 10-foot buffer, you're actually getting
quite a bit more than that because we have to
start the buffer on the upland side of the
easement so as not to block the passageway for
the easement.
Again, I think the Heaths have done a
commendable job voluntarily limiting the scope
of this project without really pushing the
envelope through the regulatory agencies for
all that they can get. I think that they have
done a good job in terms of making sure that
they have not violated any code in terms of
prematurely constructing what we're asking you
permission to do today and I certainly hope
the Board will view this as, if not de
minimis, virtually de minimis relief in light
of what I've laid out in the application I've
presented to you today. Again, the Heaths are
here, I'm here, if you have any questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Rob. We
have a letter of consistency from the LWRP
coordinator and the recommendation, which I
just want to clarify for the record, that I
believe you said you were going to be filing,
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is that Ua natural vegetative buffer be
required instead of the proposed non-turf,"
which was apparently originally proposed.
"It's further recommended that the dimensions,
type, and maintenance activities of the buffer
be memorialized within a covenant and
restriction filed with the Office of the
Suffolk Clerk."
Are you prepared to adhere to that
recommendation?
MR. HERMANN: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Just for the tape,
Rob Hermann has left the podium and is
discussing this with his clients, the Heaths.
MR. HERMANN: Yeah, I was just conferring
with the Heaths. I believe that's what we
were planning on doing anyway. Non-turf
buffers behind bulkheads are sometimes left as
gravel or sand. We wouldn't do that here,
obviously, (inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We need native
vegetation.
MR. HERMANN: -- vegetation would further
the aesthetic of the Heath's property. So we
would certainly be agreeable to that and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
request for the covenant is not an unusual one
so we don't have any problem with that either.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you.
Any questions, George, you're the first.
You're assigned.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, sure. The 15-foot
easement, in terms of the County Tax Map, what
parcels can use that easement?
MR. HERMANN: It is the parcels -- I'd
have to pull out the tax map to remind myself
of this, unless the Heaths know it by heart,
but it provides access to the properties which
are locked away from Hippodrome Drive by the
subject lot, which includes Campbell most
immediately to the northwest and I believe,
and I don't know, George, if you have a tax
map in front of you --
MEMBER HORNING: I do.
MR. HERMANN: -- there could be one or
two additional parcels. It's not much.
MEMBER HORNING: Then there's a lot
number 9 on the tax map which is abutting
Orchard Road, so that may be not --
MR. HERMANN: Well, there is another
roadway on the other side, but it's really not
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
open between the two,
from being out there.
MEMBER HORNING:
neighbors up in,
have to use that
MR. HERMANN:
if I recall correctly
Right. How many
besides the Campbells then,
easement?
I'd have to look at the tax
map, George, I don't know that issue has never
been raised before.
MEMBER HORNING: And it's not an official
right-of-way?
MR, HERMANN: No, it's a travel -- it's
an easement that provides access to those
properties. It is not deemed a right-of-way
that would establish front yard, if that's
what you're driving at, no.
MEMBER HORNING: Is it their driveway?
MR. HERMANN: Um, in effect, it is the
access way to that property. I don't know
whether it -- I mean the Campbells would not
park in it, no. They would have their own
parking on their own property because they
could not block access further to the
northwest.
MEMBER HORNING:
as to the status of
Right. I'm just curious
it as a right-of-way.
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MR. HERMANN: I believe it is legally a
travel easement. It is not a right-of-way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's not a walking
path right-of-way, it's a vehicular --
MR. HEPd~AA/N: It's vehicular, correct.
MEMBER HORNING: But you're saying it's
the only access for the Campbell's among
others?
MR. HERMANN: I can't speak to whether
it's their only access. I know it is their
primary access because that issue was raised
during the Trustee hearing.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, I mean on the tax
map there's no other --
MR. HERMANN: I'm trying to understand
the relevance of the question to what we're --
MEMBER HOP~NING: I'm trying to get to a
personal understanding of the status of a
legal right-of-way.
MR. HERMANN: Right.
MEMBER HOP~NING: You know and who uses it
and whose right-of-way is it.
MR. HERMANN: My understanding is that
it's an easement for the Campbell and other
properties that exist between the Heath
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
property and the road that is further to the
northwest, which I think is Orchard.
MEMBER HORNING: Who maintains it?
MR. HERMANN: (Speaking to the Heaths.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me. If Mrs.
Heath wants to testify --
MR. HERMANN: Yeah, I'm (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- then she can
come forward and speak into the mike or --
MR. HERMANN: Why don't you just come and
address it because I don't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think that's
probably better.
Hi.
MRS. HEATH: Good morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Welcome.
MRS. HEATH: It -- that's actually our
driveway and we give an easement to the
Campbell property and (Inaudible) owns a piece
of property that goes from Rogers Road down to
the pond. The easement ends at Campbell's
property on that side. Our driveway, when we
used to use our garage, that was just our
driveway. We really are not using it, we're
using that more for storage at this point in
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time, but that's why -- and we maintain that
and we've always been told that we have to
maintain it. Put down rocks or whatever and
maintain it and that's what we have always
done. Once it hits the Campbell property, she
maintains her property however she maintains
her property.
On the other side from Orchard there is,
I believe, there's an easement that goes
through Maureen's property and Ms. Campbell
owns another piece of property on that side,
too. The easement is higher up and away from
the pond at that point, but this is just --
all it is is an easement for the owner of that
house, Campbell, to come through to get to her
property, but it's not a right-of-way for
people to be walking around or, if that's what
you're talking about. It's really our
backyard into the Campbell's home and so the
only people who really use that are the
Campbell's, if they have friends or relatives
or something that come by and that's all
that's for.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you a
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
question, Mrs. Heath?
MRS. HEATH: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So in other words,
there is another easement off of the Orchard
property -- Orchard Road or --
MRS. HEATH: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- whatever it is
that would lead into the back of these
properties because specifically when you look
at the tax map it's your house, the Campbell
house, and two other parcels. Are those two
parcels built on?
MRS. HEATH: No. The other parcel behind
the Campbell home is part of Vivian
(Inaudible) her name is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
her backyard really.
She lives on Rogers.
Okay, good. So it's
MRS. HEATH: So it's her backyard and it
cannot be built on. No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so when we go
to lot number 10, which is the lot before the
one that fronts on Orchard, and that easement
goes across that one to gain access to?
MRS. HEATH: No. I believe, from what I
understand, the easement stops at Campbell.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. HEATH: And then -- but then there's
another easement that comes in.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. HEATH: So in other words, if
Campbell wants to come in from the other side,
she would have to get permission from Vivian
(Inaudible) to go through, that's their --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That portion, okay.
MRS. HEATH: -- property, in order to
start using that as her easement.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. HEATH: You're welcome.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, no questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll continue with
looking at the proposed roof deck on the rear
of the house.
MR. HERMANN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: What can you tell us
about that? Is --
MR. HERMANN: That is actually an area
where the roof will -- the existing roof will
become diminished rather than raised and a
roof deck will be established there and it was
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
the interpretation of the Building Department
that that was in effect a decrease as opposed
to an increase in ~air rights within a
required yard, and therefore did not require
relief". It was the only -- it was only the
raising of a section of the roof that we bring
before you today that they consider a
~increase in a preexisting nonconformity",
they deem that the deck would not represent an
increase, but rather a decrease in the
nonconformity because you were actually
lowering the vertical space.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Did that show up here?
I mean I see the area on the -- but I don't
see it as part of
the survey.
MR. HERMAIqN:
the original structure on
It shows on the site plan
as the proposed roof deck. That is -- and
would you want to see, you may have it in the
file somewhere, a survey of the existing
house. That's part and parcel of the existing
house footprint.
MEMBER HORNING: That is, okay.
MR. HERMAiqN: Yeah, it's not an extension
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
out, that's footprint.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, thank you.
MR. HERMANN: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else in the audience who would like to speak
in favor or against this application?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I want to ask a
question before we finish.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Go ahead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Rob, what is your
opinion, based upon your discussion with the
Building Department, on this phrase, ~air
rights"?
MR. HERMANN: Um, in my experience there
are basically two different interpretations of
vertical extensions over an existing dwelling.
The way this town in my experience has always
judged it through the Building Department is
that even if you have a preexisting one- or
two-story dwelling that is a nonconforming
setback from the property line, any vertical
expansion, even within the same footprint,
constitutes an increase in the nonconformity
of that dwelling.
Southampton, by contrast, grandfathers
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
you the right to stay within that footprint
provided that you don't exceed the
restrictions of the Town's pyramid law.
That's how Southampton handles it. They say
if you are too close to the property line, you
can continue to be too close to that property
line both up and out, but you cannot go so
high that you violate the -- what again would
be the air rights that's defined by a 45-
degree right triangle. If you can imagine
that this is the grade and this is the
property line is a 45-degree angle. So you
can go up within your preexisting
nonconforming setback, but if you choose to go
higher than that 45-degree angle, then you
need to go to the Zoning Board for pyramid
relief. They control it in a different way.
I think it's a much more efficient way of
controlling it because my frank opinion is to
have to be here for this seems almost like a
waste of everybody's time to me, and I don't
say that with any disrespect, it just it seems
to me that the scope of this kind of increase
of pushing a roof up a couple of feet really
doesn't impact anybody, but that's the way the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
Town has always judged it. There's no such
language that I'm aware of that's actually in
the Code that provides the premise for that,
it's just the interpretive policy of the Town.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, underneath this
is a part of the kitchen; is that correct?
MR. HERMAIqN: The kitchen actually gets
raised underneath this. So the ceiling of the
kitchen is allowed to -- and that's correct,
correct? The kitchen is allowed to be raised
as well as part of this. In other words,
you're really raising the ceiling of an
existing condition and pushing out the space
of an existing habitable area, but again all
within the confines of the existing footprint
of the house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that has -- that's
a flat roof --
MR. HERF~ANN: Well,
really.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MR. HERMANN: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
it's an angled roof,
It's an angled roof.
There's a little
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
pitch on that?
MR. HERMANN: There's a pitch on that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thanks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. All right,
hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision for later date. Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING #6348 Curtis-Harvey
Revocable Trust
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~'Request for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's October
16, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed additions and alterations to a single
family dwelling, (1) less than the code
required front yard setback of 35 feet, at 3
Reservoir Rd., Fishers Island, NY. CTM: 9-8-
3.4 ."
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is this something
different than what was in the application or
is it the same?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. It's -- my client
provided a little schematic of the area
(inaudible) variance.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: On behalf of my client, I
would apologize --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you -- for
the record.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, Patricia Moore, the
attorney for the applicant. The applicant is
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
-- would have liked to have been here, but
only Mr. Horning has the ability to make his
long trek from Fishers Island, so he sent me
this schematic to try to, I guess, express to
the Board the area that is actually part of
the area that would be
Code.
What we have here
in violation of the
is a house that was
preexisting in the 1980s it looks like the
Zoning Board granted an area to subdivide.
There were three houses, this was one of the
three houses in the development plan of three
homes, and this house is angled somewhat
skewed from Reservoir Road. So you can see
that the house, the entire house corner where
he shows the line, the 35-foot front yard
setback is an existing house that is within
the front yard setback of Reservoir Road.
They have their own internal road system, I
believe, from what appears from the
development plan, but they do -- Reservoir
Road is the setback that we have to
accommodate.
So the existing deck that is there is
presently on the north side, which is the area
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
adjacent to Reservoir Road. It's 8-1/2 feet.
They would like -- they need to rebuild the
deck. The condition of the deck is in need of
replacement at this point, just the years of
wear and tear, and they would like to extend
the deck to 12 feet on one end and you can see
that on the southerly end the existing deck is
only 4-1/2 feet and they wish to extend it out
at the same level and it's at 8 feet. So we
have 12 feet on the north end and 8 feet on
the south end. Also, convert it from an open
deck to a covered deck.
I think that pretty much, you know, the
diagrams and all of the drawings pretty much
speak for themselves and I'd be happy to
answer any questions that you might have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ken, why don't you
go first?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. The existing
deck is 12-feet wide?
MRS. MOORE: The existing deck is 8-1/2
feet wide.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see, 8-1/2 feet
wide.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. The additional square
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
footage that is being requested is an extra 3-
1/2 feet, making the full length of the deck
12 feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There is a little
area, area of the proposed addition?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Let me see. Oh, yes.
I'm sorry, the diagram he gave me. Yes. I'm
looking at the survey at the same time.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Okay, so they
want to cover that and make it a porch. Is
there any intention of enclosing that?
MRS. MOORE: They have not stated any.
It's just a covering.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Um-hmm. Let's see,
that porch would then face west.
MRS. MOORE: Uh, yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, western exposure.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, western exposure.
Yeah, towards Silver -- Eel Cove.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: May I ask a question?
Is that porch only -- that's only over the
three-quarters of the house, the roof?
MRS. MOORE: That is just an extension.
It's covering the -- we have an existing deck
now.
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MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: They're going to rebuild it
at the elevation you have in your file. It
looks like it's the elevation it shows just a
covering (inaudible). [Walked away from the
mike.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: This
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
one that's the house
Right.
MRS. MOORE: So it's a covering extending
from the top of the -- from the bottom of the
roofline for the part of the house extending
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's just an
open --
MRS. MOORE: Just an open --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- covered deck
with columns supporting the proposed roof.
MRS. MOORE: Correct. Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So looking at this
drawing here, this is the --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's the one we were
talking about. It's actually (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It starts from here.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, you're right. I'm
sorry.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, you were
correct. That's a (inaudible). Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. (inaudible) looks
almost (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There's actually more
area because it's two-thirds of the house.
From the second -- well, everything that's --
it's two-story is where the actual roofline
is.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the roofline is the
two-story and this covered portion is at the
ceiling height of the first story.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim, do you have
any questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I guess it's just going
to look like the neighbors'. They have a
flat-roof type of --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, they kind of all liked
what they --
MEMBER DINIZIO: So just some posts
sticking up --
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah and because of the
positioning of this house, kind of diagonally
adjacent to Reservoir Road, he needed a
variance while everyone else I think was okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I didn't catch it when
you were talking, but over the part that is
going to be 8-feet, is there going to be a
roof over that also? It doesn't look like it.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that -- it's -- the
area right now that's 8-1/2 feet is going to
be all changed over to 12 feet and that would
be the entire -- that's just one uniform area.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, okay. Maybe I'm not
being --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's like a notch,
you know, on the south part of the house.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, on the south part.
Yeah, that's part of the house itself. Yes.
So that, yes, the covered area will be shorter
on that end because the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but it will be
the entire length of the deck is being
covered?
MRS. MOORE: It will be the entire deck,
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yes .
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. It's just hard to
tell from the sketch.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's -- that's why I
described it, the shorter distance on the
south end than on the north end.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay, that's
all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, George do you
have any other questions?
MEMBER HORNING: No. The deck is going
to become a porch.
MRS. MOORE: Pretty --
MEMBER HORNING: Correct?
MRS. MOORE: Pretty straightforward.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's about it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, in two words or less.
Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone in
the audience who would like to speak in favor
or against this application?
If there are no further questions, then
I'll make a motion to close this hearing
reserving decision to a later date. Is there
a second?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING ~6370 - Robert Anello
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variances from Code Sections
280-124 & 280-116A(2) based on an application
for building permit and the Building
Inspector's January 15, 2010, Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed additions and
alteration to a single family dwelling, (1)
less than the code required minimum side yard
setback of 10 feet, (2) less than the code
required total side yard setbacks of 25 feet,
(3) less than the code required setback to
Sound of 100 feet, (4) proposed second story
addition is a deviation from ZBA decision
#6242, at 1980 Leeton Dr., Southold, NY. CTM:
58-2-13."
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. Patricia Moore
for Mr. and Mrs. Anello. I have both Mr. and
Mrs. Anello here with me today. So hopefully
we can answer whatever questions and finish
this process up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, Pat. One
green card is missing.
MRS. MOORE: It didn't come in yet. So
we usually deliver them as soon as we get
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
them.
As you pointed out, we did -- we were
before the Board last year, 2009, on appeal
#6242 and at that time my clients had actually
redesigned the roof dimensions and they were
somewhat different than what currently you
have in your file. The current plan for the
roofline is -- again, the existing house is
there, we just want to -- we have to replace
the roof and the design of the roof is
different than what is presently there. They
wanted to add a little cupola on to the top of
the new roof design all in an effort to make
the design of the renovated house a little
more attractive. They have a new house that
has been built right next door, which is a
full 2-1/2 stories that has to meet with FEMA,
so they have a house that's very tall next to
them on the one side. We have a neighbor on
the other side who is similar to our clients
who want to keep their house small. They
don't necessarily want to change -- they've
tried to limit the amount of construction so
that we would not have to make the entire --
change the first floor to comply with FEMA.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
So we have purposely limited the amount of
construction all throughout this process.
The roofline, as I said, is a new design
which is in your file and it should reflect
the design plans that are dated August 10,
2009. (Inaudible) the actual architectural
drawings for the construction drawings because
we did not realize that the Board didn't have
this plan until after we had already submitted
our building permit and then all of this came
to light. So we have the actual construction
drawings.
In addition, the existing second floor
deck in the rear of the house facing the Long
Island Sound, that deck is existing. It is --
it was again part of the 2009 application.
There was decking that was to the bulkhead,
but was approved -- remember we're just
talking about today this second -- I call it
the second floor, it's an elevated deck
because it -- it's actually their story.
They're living area. That deck, we proposed a
roof over it. This is, Mrs. Anello, and I'm
allowed to say this cause usually, you know,
personal situations aside, she has suffered
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
from some skin cancer so she really has to
protect herself against the sun. Right now,
without any covering over that deck, makes
that deck almost useless to her because, you
know, she can't enjoy it. So that roof will
allow her to enjoy the back of the property,
which is the beautiful views of Long Island
Sound. It's tough to live on Long Island and
not be able to be outside.
That is it. It's all over existing, it's
an existing structure with existing setbacks
and it's just modifications of the roofs.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, so when we
discuss some of the issues that were part of
this second Notice of Disapproval, okay, which
refer to the second story deck roof, okay, we
now have that in place with the Building
Department so that will not be an issue if
this Board is so inclined --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- to grant it.
Okay.
MRS, MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Number two.
lot
On the
coverage of the decking and hot tub relief
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
-- I'm reading out of the Notice of
Disapproval, I mean from the Notice of
Disapproval they included -- no included in
ZBA #6242, which is the application of course
which you brought before us in May I believe,
I had thought that decking was going to be
stone. So, therefore, there wasn't an issue
in reference to lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: No, actually the -- what we
talked about is on the west side there was a
wood walkway.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: That's what we decided --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's going to be
removed.
MRS. MOORE: Yes and actually that was --
I gave you the notes that I put on before I
got the survey that showed it. It shows a
wood walkway replaced with pavers. So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That was just on
the side.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was just on the
side.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it was just on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
side. The rest is a boardwalk and we talked
about the problems with replacing it because
it's only sand and it caves.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Now, let me
just go into one other thing. They also refer
to the hot tub. Okay, now I'm just reading
from the Notice of Disapproval, I'm not making
this up.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
have to write this, Pat,
Okay. Only because I
okay. Do we have a
size on the hot tub, is that going to --
MRS. MOORE: You know what, I think I
need a clarification. It says here also the
lot coverage, deck, and hot tub relief are not
included since ZBA file #6232 indicates
approval. So these things are not part of
this application, it was all approved in a
prior application.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I'm
rereading the Notice of Disapproval
incorrectly?
MRS. MOORE: Correct. Yes, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so when I say,
so when I ask you questions about additional
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
lot coverage they are now moot at this time.
MRS. MOORE: Correct. That's why it was
clarified by (inaudible) that my concern was
that during the hearing something got dropped
and I wanted to be sure that it was, you know,
since we're back here, I didn't want to have
the Building Department say to us this wasn't
addressed. So they, in trying to help clarify
everything, all of those issues were addressed
in appeal #6242.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So the existing lot
coverage from the May decision stands?
MRS. MOORE: Yes and we've actually --
yes, part of our plan is the removal of that
decking.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
you up about this.
Okay, I'm not setting
MRS. MOORE: No, no. I (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I just want to
make sure that that is the case. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: To my knowledge.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's right,
that's part of lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry, yes. We can
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
have it on the record.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN:
you come and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
record, Mr. Anello.
Mr. Anello, would
It's not on the
Trustees' drawings. This one right here.
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MR. ANELLO: Okay. Sure. (Inaudible)
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, these are the
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's actually showing
on the survey. It shows the wood walkway on
the front, which is going to be removed and
replaced with pavers. So that's on the plan.
Yeah, go ahead, you can confirm it.
MR. ANELLO: All right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I wish you would.
Okay, the proposed roof also.
MR. ANELLO: Robert Anello. We're
removing that front walkway, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. I remember
that was part of the reduction in lot
coverage.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could you just point
it out on here, Mr. Anello, so I understand
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Come on up.
MRS. MOORE: There's a wood walkway that
comes -- it's like a boardwalk that takes you
to the front entrance. That's the walkway,
the last appeal we were trying to reduce lot
coverage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And the best way to do it
was to get -- without impacting anything cause
everything else was existing --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And this walkway was
the other one.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. AI~ELLO: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Now, to what point,
Mr. knelloz?
MR. ANELLO: It's going to come right to
the edge here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. So it's --
MR. kNELLO: It's going to be this and
this.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's actually
going to be something like this?
MR. ANELLO: Yes. The stairs are right
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
here, too.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it'll include the
stairs, right to there. Okay, so this is out,
this is out, this is out.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And this is out.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure exactly that's
the whole -- I know we did it by square
footage, so whatever the amount of the square
footage is, cause I always thought it was just
the -- we got the square footages from the
stairs.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
letter on that, too?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
Could you give us a
(inaudible).
We need to confirm
when he did the
calculations, exactly what he was (inaudible).
MR. ANELLO: Yeah, all right.
MRS. MOORE: Because I thought it went to
here or next to the house rather than all the
way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I have the original
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
application here with me.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
if it --
I'm looking to see
all the stuff in it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
around --
Are you sure it wraps
MRS. MOORE: That's what I'm not sure
does. I mean if you want to --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No.
MRS. MOORE: -- you can, but I mean I
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's on the survey you
gave me the square footage and that's where
the -- "walkways to be removed, 288 square
feet" (inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's right here.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's where it is,
okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3%N: That's it. I
brought the original with me.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, see how the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're lucky you
have a big (Inaudible) on that so you can put
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
don't know if it --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
that make in (inaudible)?
MR. ANELLO: It's (inaudible)
right there, I'm going to go right
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
otherwise.
MRS. MOORE: Right,
What difference does
end it
around the
record to reflect that he's going -- that that
square footage calculation from the previous
hearing went all the way to there, cause I
don't know that's true.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. It's
presumably just on the side and here, but if
you reduce lot coverage to a greater extent,
so what. I mean ~-
MRS. MOORE: More, right.
MR. ANELLO: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not a problem.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. So what can
we -- we can merely say that the real purpose
and the meat of this hearing is strictly the
roofline, the cupola and the roof over the
existing second story deck.
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(Inaudible)
but I don't want the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) design.
MR. ANELLO: Exactly.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
ask you a question about this.
upside down, that sentence?
MR. ANELLO: Yes.
I'd like to
Can you read
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: These two actually
meet each other and where you have these
reverse gable ends coming in here --
MR. ANELLO: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- this actually
meets in here and there's a flat roof and we
have this circular or is this open in this
particular portion?
MR. ANELLO: That's going to meet, it's
going to meet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's going to meet.
MR. ANELLO: It's definitely going to
meet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So this'll be flat
right in here.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And -- or flat with
maybe a little bow -~
MR. ANELLO: Maybe a bow window I think
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
it is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but that bow
window is going to look over that flat roof.
So that this roof is one continuous roof all
the way across.
MR. ANELLO: Right,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
exactly.
Okay, wonderful.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: While you're up
here, I actually had a question regarding the
plans. The plan submitted for this
application show nothing on the first floor.
Is it -- in other words, it's a blank except
for your stairs.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, he didn't redraw it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He didn't redraw
it.
cause we were only
MRS. MOORE: No, no,
dealing with --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The roof.
MRS. MOORE: Well, actually these are the
construction drawings. So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no
construction going on other than the stairs on
the first floor.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
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ZBA Tow~ of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I just wanted
to confirm that the floor plan from the
original application is not going to change.
MR. ANELLO: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's staying as
is.
MR. ANELLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The bedroom, the
small little bedroom and one bath.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And an open room.
MR. ANELLO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, originally
you had proposed on the second floor a
fireplace.
MR. A/qELLO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That doesn't appear
in this plan now. Is that a change?
MRS. MOORE: It's on my elevation as
having a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It says on the
elevation.
MRS. MOORE: I think it's a prefab you're
using.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. ANELLO: Yeah, we're going to use a
prefab fireplace.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right because
it's not on the floor plan and it is on the
elevation and so I want to be clear --
MR. ANELLO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that we have
consistency in the drawings so you know
exactly what you're doing because an existing
chimney will impact a roofline.
MR. ANELLO: Right, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so you are
going -- (inaudible) --
They're exempt from --
MRS. MOORE: The height.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the height, but
they still have to be noted on plans. You're
going --
MRS. MOORE: Right, if they're going to -
- Yeah, but I don't know that they were
including it in the Notice of Disapproval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~:
No, they're not.
But what I'm asking
is I want to make sure the drawings reflect
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
what your intention is.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you putting in
MR. ANELLO: We are putting in a
fireplace (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I
thought. Well, from what that -- it was
originally in this corner, sort of --
MR. ANELLO: Yeah that's probably right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's probably the
same.
MR. ANELLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: I guess you're going to kind
of place it once the (inaudible) gets done.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, as per
original. All right. Okay, no change.
The cupola, I assume, is strictly an
element for natural light.
MR. ANELLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is no access
to it.
MR. ANELLO: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not used for
any other thing other than a decorative
element.
MR. AI~ELLO: Yeah, we can't get up there.
There'll be no decking in there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No decking. All
right, that's the only questions I have.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No floor.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim, do you have
any questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm glad you cleared
that up because that causes another --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HOHNING: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, is there
anyone in the audience would like to speak
either in favor or in opposition to this
application?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing reserving
decision for a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
**********************************************
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING #6345 - Karnik and
Haci Garipian
MEMBER DINIZIO:
~Request for Variances from Code Section
280-116A(1) and 280-124, based on an
application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's September 16, 2009,
amended January 27, 2010 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions and existing
deck addition to a single family dwelling, (1)
less than the Code required setback of 100
feet from a bluff, (2) less than the code
required side yard setback of 15 feet, (3)
less than the code required rear yard setback
of 50 feet, at 54715 Route 48,
CTM: 44-1-1. Zone R-40."
MR. TALGAT: Ural Talgat,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Southold, NY.
architect.
Your turn.
MR. TALGAT: My turn.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
please.
State your name
MR. TALGAT: Ural Talgat, architect.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, Ural, we have
no green cards at all. Do you have some?
MR. TALGAT: I have (inaudible) I'm
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missing one.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Everybody's missing
one today, so don't worry about it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: At least we have
some of them, that's good.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Maybe it's the same
person.
MR. TALGAT: My clients the Garipians are
here today and I'm sure they'd like to speak.
I just want to go over a couple of things.
The site has two structures, one is the
existing residence and one is an existing
garage. The existing residence is in very
close proximity to the bulkhead. The addition
that we would like to do is 10 feet off the
point of the house towards the road. It's
landward of the existing residence. There is
an existing terrace, again, landward of the
house that's existing and we'd like to fill
that in, also, with the addition. The
addition is a one-story addition and I think
everything is self-explanatory.
If you have any questions, we're here.
The Garipians, I'm sure, would like to also
speak. So I leave it up to the Board to ask
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
any questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's my application so I
just want to get enough information to write a
decision.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: In my file I saw it was
something about a demo, but it was a different
application. Evidently, you're not
demolishing the house?
MR. TALGAT: No, we're not demolishing
the house. That was, I guess, a past
application that I was not involved with.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just wanted to clarify
that.
MR. TALGAT: I believe that the owners
decided to leave the house where it was and
live with it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I mean, the house
has been existing for a number of years.
MR. TALGAT: Many years.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it would be quite a
hardship for you to pick this thing up and
move it to a conforming location.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is there any other
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
reason why you couldn't put it in a more
confirming location?
MR. TALGAT: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: On the property, on that
piece of property?
MR. TALGAT: On that piece of property,
the house is existing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. TALGAT: To move the house would be a
tremendous hardship. They originally thought
of possibly building a new house, but the
hardship of that is just unthinkable. I think
that's the primary reason. The house is
existing. They've renovated the interior of
the home a bunch of times. It's to their
living standards and they like it where it is.
They like the house where it is and the
architecture, the addition is going to be in
keeping with the historic quality of
architecture here in Southold.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean the variance that
we would grant is substantial. Over 50-
percent of what's required -- what the law
requires, but any argument to that that it
would not be a substantial variance? You're
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
talking about having -- adding -- you have a
house that's 1600 square feet and adding
another 800 square feet to that. So, you
know, it's 50~percent. A~y substantial reason
why, you know, that --
MR. TALGAT: The Garipians, I think it
may be time for them to come up here and
speak. Maybe they should come up here and
speak on this.
MRS. GARIPIAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Hi.
Hi. Good afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not yet.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Good morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It feels like
afternoon. Just state your name for us,
please.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Nadia Garipian and my
husband, Haci Garipian.
MR. GARIPIAN: I'm Haci and my brother
Karnik (Inaudible). The house also we bought
together about 20 years ago. We live in house
almost (inaudible). Now, our kids grow up in
Southold (inaudible).
MRS. GARIPIAN: There are five kids in
between two brothers, so we're all together.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
My older son got married and having a baby.
So the reason we're here is like the family is
getting bigger. So we just need a little bit
more room with the living room because the
baby is on the way and also the bedroom that
we have, existing. So it's a big family, you
know. That's the only reason we want it
because we're getting bigger and bigger and
the grandchild on the way.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Congratulations.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Thank you. Very excited.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I guess it's your
first?
MRS. GARIPIAN: On both sides,
one.
yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, that's a big
MRS. GARIPIAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
make all the mistakes on,
you real perspective.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Well,
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the grandparents.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Yes.
That's a big one.
So that's the one you
(inaudible) gives
I'm ready to spoil
That's the job of
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, again, I just
-- I'm just looking for anything that would
say that this is not substantial, but we're
going to say it's substantial. It doesn't
mean that, you know, we're going to not grant
it, it just means that, you know, in your
application you said that wasn't substantial
and honestly it is.
Besides that, I had originally thought
you were going to demo, but you're not, and I
mean the difficulty certainly is something
that you've created just by asking for it
because it is difficult for you to do anything
with that existing house without getting a
variance. As a matter of fact, it's
impossible.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you would need -- to
even add a shed to that house, you would need
something -- some variance. So again,
although it's not self-created, it is self-
created cause you're asking us to --
MRS. GARIPIAN: Yes, we're asking --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. No, I don't have
any additional -- it's going to be behind the
house.
MRS. GARIPIAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Yeah, behind the house.
And it's a single story.
You don't plan on ever adding upstairs to that
any future additions that might --
MRS. GARIPIAN: We just need --
MR. TALGAT: Is there any future
additions? I'm sure we would have to come in
front of the Board. At this moment in time,
there are no future thoughts of adding a
second story. It's just designed to increase
the living space and also the size of a
bedroom, which is very tiny right now.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's
bedroom, that one bedroom.
an existing
Yeah.
MR. TALGAT: An existing bedroom on the
ground floor two bedrooms and we're
maintaining the size of one, but we're
increasing the size of the other. I believe
the floor plans are in front of you. If not,
I do have one copy that shows that and we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
not going above -- we're not increasing the
height of the structure at all. We're staying
below that. It's a one-story addition only.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I just wanted to
get all that on the record so I --
MR. TALGAT: Right. I'm not quite sure
the definition of substantial is. I believe,
I think in my mind when I saw that, I'm adding
10 feet to the back side of the house. I
didn't see that as a substantial addition to
the house. I guess that's my perspective.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I'm comparing
it to the Code.
MR. TALGAT: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, in the Code
basically we say we made all these things
nonconforming --
MR. TALGAT: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in the zones and
nonconforming structures are supposed to be
made conforming --
MR. TALGAT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- okay, when you do
anything to it. Certainly recent decisions
even make that more so.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. TALGAT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So when you say you have
a conformed structure, we're going to add
another 50-percent of nonconformity to that
structure, that's substantial.
MR. TALGAT: I understand. I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's it. Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think the
issue here, Ural, and you may have seen it in
the last hearing, and that is the issue of the
Notice of Disapproval. It says that the as-
built decking is 14 feet from the rear
property line. The prior people, and I'm not
comparing two applications, (inaudible) wood
decking and it's a walkway, okay, and the wood
decking that they have or the walkway they're
taking away and they're putting pavers in.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: To eliminate some of
this setback problem, you know, is there a CO
on the wood deck that exists there between
that and the foundation?
MR. TALGAT: I believe there isn't.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TALGAT: I don't know the past
history of the project and how that appeared.
I think the Garipians could talk about that,
but the deck in the back on the water side --
MR. GARIPIAN: On the water side.
MRS. GARIPIAN: The deck is --
MR. TALGAT: On the water side.
MRS. GARIPIAN: On the water side, okay.
MR. GARIPIAN: When we bought like
(inaudible) something like that, house it was
(inaudible) the house and then from town one
guys came (Inaudible) and the guys
(Inaudible). I say is there a problem, do you
need a permit? He said, no I'll take care of
it. I said, if you gonna take care of it, no
problem just go ahead. They finished in one
day. I didn't know you (inaudible) years ago.
So if you got a problem that deck, it's no
problem. I can move that no problem.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You know, it would
increase the setback but certainly be the
availability of removing the deck and putting
pavers in or just removing it in toro. I'm
referring to the wood portion only.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. TALGAT: Okay. I believe the
Garipians now -- I just want to be clear.
There's a concrete patio.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. TALGAT: And from the concrete patio
out there's a wood deck that goes up to the
top of bluff and from the top of bluff there's
another wood deck that goes beyond the
bulkhead.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. TALGAT: which particular part of
that are we talking about?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're really talking
about the one that's upland.
MR. TALGAT: Okay, on the top of the
bluff?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On the top of the
bluff to the existing house.
MR. TALGAT: Okay, from the top of bluff
here to the house. If that was replaced with
pavers set in sand on grade, the Garipians,
would you be okay with that?
MRS. GARIPIAN: Pavers?
MR. TALGAT: If we took this wood deck
out and put the pavers.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. GARIPIA-N:
no problem.
MRS. GARIPI~-N:
MR. GA~RIPI~,N:
Put the pavers in, I have
Yes.
(Inaudible).
75
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, the deck is not
in the greatest of conditions. I'm not here
to judge your deck in any way, okay.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But that would be one
suggestion and anything else that is
outstanding that doesn't have permits on it
would be important if there is anything
outstanding.
MR. TALGAT: I'm not quite sure what
would be outstanding. You would know better
than I would, but the Garipians, I think, are
amicable to the removal of the wood deck and
replace it with pavers on grade.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TALGAT: And if there's any other
ideas that the Board might have or
suggestions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, is there
a judgment -- there is an issue, I guess, with
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
the Trustees that has to do with the existing
stairs down to the beach, but that is not
before us. The one that is cited in our
Notice of Disapproval has to do with the one
we're talking about, the existing wood deck
that doesn't have a CO and was built without a
permit.
Let's talk about the wood deck that's
going out over the bluff. How do you feel
about preserving that or removing that and
bringing it into greater conformity?
MR. TALGAT: The portion that's from the
top of bluff out --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you have
stairs going down --
MR. TALGAT: There are stairs.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: -- stairs already.
So you have access.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
replacing the at-grade
pavers.
MR. TALGAT: Yes, pavers.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: And then I want to
talk to you about the existing wood deck that
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We're talking about
to the bluff with stone
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
is out over the bluff with steps going down.
MR. TALGAT: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to do is clearly preserve
What we're trying
that bluff from
erosion. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
MR. TALGAT: Okay, I believe the
Garipians are amicable to removal of those --
that wood deck and also those stairs since
there is another set of stairs there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. That's
terrific. Does anyone have any other
questions?
MEMBER HORNING: Just minor clarification
again back to your survey and your plans.
What you're calling in the front there the
roadside, the existing stone patio --
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: -- with proposed -- the
patio goes, right?
MR. TALGAT: Yes, but I guess I just
wanted to make it clear that there is an
existing terrace there.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. Okay, that's the
only (inaudible) and you're building that
there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. TALGAT: The existing terrace, yes,
and we're just --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're covering
over that.
MR. TALGAT: We're covering over it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MR. TALGAT: -- with the addition.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What is the side yard
setback of the proposed addition? Is that
10.2 feet?
MR. TALGAT: It looks like 10.2 feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay and what is the
area of the proposed addition?
MR. TALGAT: I don't have those
calculations right now in front of me, but
it's less than 1000 square feet. How much?
If I take 53 feet multiply it by 10, that's
530. If I add that portion of the terrace,
which is existing,
be building over,
by 20. So that's
it's less than 1000
MEMBER DINIZIO:
that's what we're going to
that seems to be another 10
close to 700, 800, 900 --
square feet.
In your reasons you gave
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
893 --
MR. TALGAT: Okay, if I -- yes. I don't
remember off the top of my head.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That was I was talking
about the whole time.
MR. TALGAT: Okay, I just don't remember
off the top of my head.
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible), okay. I
just don't remember off the top of my head.
I'm sorry.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Do we have an existing
lot coverage percentage?
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's in here also. 9
you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is it in there? Thank
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 9.4?
MEMBER DINIZIO: 9.48.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
really not an issue here.
MR. TALGAT: Yeah.
Lot coverage is
Okay. It's been like
four months since I've looked at this and
submitted the application. So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're not
to admit that, you're supposed to be,
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boom,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
right on the ball there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Excuse me, it's on the
application, right?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, it's on the
reasons. ~Reasons for area variance."
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody have any
other questions?
Is there anyone in audience who'd like to
speak in favor or against the application?
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) cause I have
to write this?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So we're going to remove
the stairway --
MR. TALGAT: We're going to remove the
stairway, the beach stairs, the existing beach
stairs that are going up --
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're calling them beach
stairs?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Wait a minute,
let's be clear. Existing beach stairs --
MR. TALGAT: Existing beach stairs that
are on the western edge of the bulkhead --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
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MR. TALGAT: -- on the property. Those
beach stairs will be removed. The existing
wood deck that's below the top of bluff --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. TALGAT: -- that will be removed.
The existing wood deck that's upland of the
top of bluff, that will be replaced with
pavers on grade.
MEMBER HORNING: With the exact same
dimension as the deck?
MR. TALGAT: The exact same dimension.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Just remember that
the at-grade situation has to be even with
grade. I know you're an architect and we've
discussed with many times before with you, or
else they're going to count it as lot
coverage.
MR. TALGAT: Yes,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
I understand.
Okay.
MR. TALGAT: On grade.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On grade.
MR. TALGAT: On grade.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
have a lot coverage issue,
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You still wouldn't
but nevertheless it
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
should be on grade.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, we're seeing
some Notice of Disapprovals coming in
including patios,
that.
MR. TALGAT:
okay, so just be aware of
Okay. There's one point I'd
like to make that's probably I don't know how
much it has to do with this project, but it
has to do with maybe the general terms of
building on the water in this town. On past
projects that I've come in front of the
Board, we came in for a new building and
although the owner wanted a bulkhead and also
some kind of deck out there, we didn't apply
for it. We didn't come to the ZBA. The house
was approved, the house was built and then the
person who did the bulkheading work came and
did the bulkhead, but there was a deck out
there and I don't know if they came in front
of the ZBA or if they just got a permit from
another agency to build it, but it was there.
It was built and I don't know the exact way
they did it, but I do know that this kind of
work is very important.
It's very important to get the permits
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
from --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. TALGAT: But I guess --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Some people don't.
MR. TALGAT: -- some people don't.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What happens, Ural,
and we've had this happen on Newton Drive very
close to the Anello house --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- okay, they got the
Trustees' permit and never realized that they
needed the setback permit from either the
high-water mark or the bulkhead --
MR. TALGAT: Right. Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- if one existed.
Okay. We've only had one within the last year
or two and it was a pretty extensive deck. It
was a replacement of an existing, again,
pressure treated deck and the person was
aghast that they had to do it. They didn't
realize that they had to make this
application. Okay, but that was the only one
that I can think of. Most of the people that
have come in, have come in and said, well, we
really don't know where the bulkhead is going
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to go, so we're going to come back with an
application and I had always suggested, as a
board member, because you just don't know and
the figures just don't add up sometimes. So
put the bulkhead in first and, you know, with
the Trustees' permission and then come back
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with the whole issue of the LWRP today,
you know, you got the non-turf buffer that
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the depth of the non-turf buffer --
MR. TALGAT: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- is going to be,
what the length of the non-turf buffer is
going to be, and then let's talk decking and,
of course, what's going to be underneath the
decking so that the water that's coming off
the decking is going to be --
MR. TALGAT: Permeates, right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Permeates right at
that point and doesn't go --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Roll off.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Doesn't roll off.
MR. TALGAT: Right. Absolutely.
Again, I've been here with the town for a
while now, not too long, but a while and I
remember going through the Building Department
and at that time I think the Town put, the
(inaudible) of course, today, but they looked
at structures along the water, along the
bulkheads as -- what was the term that they
used, uh, it's -- it basically but some kind
of wooden pathway that goes out along side the
water whether it -- whatever it might be, and
at the time the Building Inspectors did not
require us to get a building permit for those
decks.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Everything needs a
permit.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're right, Ural.
MR. TALGAT: Am I not right?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I gotta tell you I
looked at the deck and the stairways and
didn't even think that you needed the permit
for it, the deck's probably 20 years old.
MR. TALGAT: Yeah, 20 years and at the
time I looked at this application here and a
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Building Inspector back then would have said,
well, you don't need it. Just go ahead and
build it, just make sure you have your DEC
permit in place.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. TALGAT:
applications that
Right.
So I look at these
come up in front of us now
and I say to us,
today's zoning,
to get a permit.
to us, yes it doesn't meet
but back then you didn't need
So is it the owner's fault?
I'm not looking to blame anybody, but that's
the way things were done back then.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. TALGAT: Now, if you're asking for a
CO, if things were done back then that way --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I don't think -
- I don't want to interject, but you know that
line of questioning is today's line of
questioning and it's more for us to determine,
you know, if we can lessen the nonconformity -
MR. TALGAT: Nonconformity, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- without stepping on
anybody' s toes.
MR. TALGAT: Absolutely.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, it seems to me
like you came pretty prepared for (inaudible).
MR. TALGAT: Except my mind, which is
kinda going, but yeah, right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I --you know, I
don't think the applicant should take that
line of questioning as being accusatory.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, not at all.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, not at all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just how we think
today --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and --
MR. TALGAT: Right, exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our quest is to
create greater conformity wherever possible
and you're clearly very willing to cooperate.
MR. TALGAT: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In that regard
though, fortunately we're all on the same page
here.
MR. TALGAT: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But it -- you know
very well that there's so much stuff out there
that's preexisting nonconforming by today's
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standards and so we are attempting to --
MR. TALGAT: Absolutely and I'm glad that
the Garipians are amicable to all of these
changes and what they really need is the space
inside the house. They can live with --
actually, the decking as you've seen they --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not in great shape
anyway.
MR. TALGAT: -- complained about it to
me. I said, well, first let's go through this
process and maybe somehow something will
happen and they're very happy with stone
pavers on grade.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Yes. Thank you.
MR. TALGAT: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good luck to you
with your growing family.
MRS. GARIPIAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no further
comments, I'll make a motion to close this
hearing, reserving decision to later date.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
**********************************************
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HEARING #6342 - Christopher M. and
Patricia F. McCarthy
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's November
6, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed construction of a second floor
addition to a single family dwelling, (1) less
than the code required front yard setback of
50 feet, (2) less than the code required side
yard setback of 15 feet, at 1460 Peconic Bay
Blvd., Laurel, N Y. CTM: 145-2-14,15,16.
Zone R-40."
MRS. MOORE: Okay, Patricia Moore on
behalf of Christopher and Patricia McCarthy.
Christopher McCarthy is here with me today, so
I'll defer to him on any questions that I
can't address.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, one green card
is missing.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, we'll look for it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It must be the same
person that's constantly not sending their
green card.
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MRS. MOORE: I'll look around,
Whatever we find, we'll bring over.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Or track
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
okay.
Or track 'em down.
~em down.
Okay, thank you.
MRS. MOORE: There is an existing house
with an existing garage and my client wants to
add a bedroom upstairs and it is directly over
the existing garage. So it's an addition over
existing structure. The setbacks are
established by the existing structure so the
increase -- the roofline is increasing over
the garage. It's meeting up with, actually
it's a little shorter, but it's meeting up
with the roofline of the main house. You have
an elevation that I provided and I believe
it's slightly shorter, but it's designed
(inaudible) it's like a dormer style and the
rest of the information is all in your
packets. I'll be happy to address any
specific questions you have.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Do we have a proposed
-- do we know what the setback is to the
garage from the front --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, oh.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just don't see it.
MRS. MOORE: No, because this is an
addition to the existing house, we had to use
the setback of the existing house as the
shorter setback.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, okay.
MRS. MOORE: So the surveyor didn't
provide that. It's actually further back than
the shortest setback.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. I see that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And the side yard --
MRS. MOORE: That we do have, 13.1.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, 13.1 and side
yard increases because the property is not
parallel to the garage at that point.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER HORNING:
Yes.
Okay. No further
No, no questions.
Again, as a
clarification, the proposed second story
addition goes exactly over the original
footprint of the existing structure, the
garage, right?
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MRS. MOORE: Yes. (inaudible) the plans?
MR. MCCARTHY: Right.
MRS. MOORE: You (inaudible)?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me, maybe
you better come to the --
MRS. MOORE: Okay, unfortunately you need
to be on the record when you speak.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's not so
unfortunate. You do it often enough.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I (inaudible).
MR. MCCARTHY: Yeah, it's going to be on
the exact same footprint.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just state your
name, please, for the --
MR. MCCARTHY: Christopher McCarthy.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Welcome.
MR. MCCARTHY: uh, it's going to be on
the exact same footprint, I'm hoping, not even
to tear down the original garage, just to go
straight up.
MRS. MOORE:
garage might have
Any possibility that the
to be torn down?
MR. MCCARTHY: There's possibility, but
boy I'm fighting hard with the contractor.
MRS. MOORE: They would need to know it.
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MR. MCCARTHY: Yeah. I --
MRS. MOORE: They would not want, you
know, we don't want to surprise --
MR. MCCARTHY: No. I want that garage
and Sean has told me that that's what we're
going to do.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: So it's just going to --
it's going to -- the walls are going to stand,
they're going to go straight up. Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask Mr.
McCarthy a question?
MR. MCCARTHY: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr. McCarthy the
Zoning Board of Appeals sometime ago did the
subdivision on this property. Okay, do you
own the remaining lots?
MR. MCCARTHY: My wife owns the two lots.
I own the lot in front.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is the
possibility of getting to those lots? Is it
going to be in that small 13-1/2 or 13.1 foot
area or are you eventually going to put a
driveway in on the opposite side, on the west
side?
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MRS. MOORE: The access to these lots is
on the left.
MR. MCCARTHY: There's a right-of-way
down here. I have a right-of-way down this
property or I could put a driveway in the
other side, if I needed to.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the right-
of-way, which is a walking path right-of-way
right now to the beach --
MR. MCCARTHY: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- is that correct?
MR. MCCARTHY: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That can be opened?
MR. MCCARTHY: I don't know. I haven't
gone that far to look into it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You don't know. All
right, but what I'm saying is by the nature of
granting a variance on this particular side,
which is the east side of the property --
MR. MCCARTHY: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- okay, is that
going to inhibit any access to the remaining
two lots?
MR. MCCARTHY: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Or if you had to use
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
your own property,
side?
MR. MCCARTHY:
would you be using the west
I would use the west side.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You would use the
west side. Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah and right now it's --
the garage is there, so there is existing 13
feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I understand that and
I just needed your opinion on that, if you
don't mind. Thank you.
MR. MCCARTHY: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually, Pat, in
your application you make a very interesting
point, which is if, in fact, this lot was not
merged with the other lots,
smaller lot and, therefore,
would become conforming.
then it would be a
that side yard
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's --
unfortunately, the history here is the Byrnes
family owned the property and they must have
had some illnesses and so on and transferred
the properties and retained life estates and
so on, but the code on merger didn't change
until after my clients purchased. Had they --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
if it had changed a little bit sooner, cause
they purchased in 2000, the Byrnes family
could have come to the Board, cleaned up the
waiver of merger --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible), yes.
MRS. MOORE: -- because it was all family
transfers, the lots were still tax map
numbered, were still independent showing as
independent lots receiving separate tax bills,
but because they couldn't do it, the Code
wasn't in place to do it, when my clients
purchased it when the Building Department
requested the single and separate, it became
apparent that the merger had occurred when the
Byrnes owned the property. So we eventually
have to come back to you for an area variance
to separate the house --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: For the two lots.
MRS. MOORE: -- from the lots, but
because they wanted to get their house
renovation started quickly, we said all right
we'll hold off on that. We'll get the
variances we need to do this since this is
relatively straightforward as a variance and
then we'll come back and deal with the --
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The lots.
MRS. MOORE: -- the lot waiver
preparation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, cause that's
what I wanted to get clear on the record
because you had it in the application --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that, in fact,
it's because you want to proceed with
construction that you have not obtained the
waiver of lot merger --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- first because
then you wouldn't have had to come before us -
MRS. MOORE: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: -- for a side yard
variance.
MRS. MOORE: Unfortunately, I -- you
know, the waiver of merger law doesn't -- the
opportunity to meet the waiver of merger
provisions applied to the Byrnes. Once my
client purchased it, I have to come in for an
area variance because of --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
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MRS. MOORE: -- the law just changes the
standard. So we'll be back when he's ready.
We'll be back.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right. Okay,
that's all the questions I have.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does anyone else on
the Board have questions?
Anyone else in the audience like to speak
for this application?
Okay, hearing no further comments, I make
a motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision for later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING ~6341 TFLC, Inc.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances from Code Section
280-63, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's March 13,
2009, updated September 14, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed one story
construction behind an existing building on
existing contractor's yard, after removal of
existing temporary greenhouse. New
construction is proposed at: (1) less than
the code required side yard setback of 20
feet, (2) less than the code required rear
yard setback of 70 feet, at 8405 Cox Ln.,
Cutchogue, NY. CTM: 83-3-8. Zone LI."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please state your
name.
MR. FABB: William Fabb, owner of TFLC,
8405 Cox Lane.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, Mr. Fabb would you
present your case a little bit first?
MR. FABB: Okay. We're proposing putting
up a pole barn construction equipment storage
building for the sole purpose of being able to
take the equipment out of the yard and putting
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
it inside. We would like to clean up the area
property by doing this. It's also going to,
the way that we have positioned the building
on the property, it's going to make it
visually more attractive for the residential
area across the street and, basically, we'll
be able to minimize exterior storage of
equipment and trucks,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
couple of questions.
so forth, outside.
Okay, I guess I have a
First, the building that
you're purchasing,
building, does
MR. FASB:
building.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. FABB: Yes.
is that a standard size
it have a kit?
Yes, it's a standard size
It is.
They have three set
sizes and that would be the size that would --
basically, what we did is the building that we
had come out of previously before purchasing
this property was that size. Now the Town has
granted us a temporary building to be able to
get us up and running, which was great, but we
still have multiple storage containers. We
have things that we're also -- we need to
store for DEC and things like that. What
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
we're trying to do is minimize all that mess
outside. We've already gone ahead and
landscaped and screened off the front, graded
the front to try to make it more aesthetically
pleasing to whatever traffic is going up and
down that road. So --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so basically the
building your purchasing comes as a kit?
MR. FABB: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) --
MR. FABB: We wouldn't construct it. We
would have a company come in and --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. FABB: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Right, they build it.
They make their rafters
one size and, you know, a one-story building
has a side (inaudible) --
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And then it works out
be what 60 by --
MR. FABB: 60 by 100.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- by 100 building.
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Any reason why you
couldn't back that off that side yard? You
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
traffic as it
we'll be able
on that road.
morning.
know, just back the building so that you're
conforming?
MR. FABB: The biggest reason that we're
going to have by positioning the building in
this direction and ergonomically it works out
the best for truck traffic in and out
trailers. We would not be able to maneuver
some of our equipment. It's really tight for
us where we are now. So by backing that up
it's going to give us the minimum area of
swing getting out of those trucks and trailers
deliveries and things like that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you're talking
tractor trailers --
MR. FABB: Correct, that way we don't
have to clog up Cox Lane having trucks back
off of Cox Lane opening gates. They're be
able to come in, keep the flow of traffic.
It's very busy behind us and next to us with
is already. So by doing this
to kind of move some things up
It's very busy there in the
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. So the trucks
are going to come in forward and go out
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forward?
MR. FABB: They're be able to swing right
around and be able to leave in a safe orderly
manner rather than be on the road and creating
more of a problem out front.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and I guess the
front yard setback is kind of dictated by the
fact that you have a building there already.
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you intend to keep
that building there.
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and there wouldn't
be any detriment or any additional problem or,
I should say, additional help to you if you
moved that thing 20 feet from the side yard
anyway? I mean you have a building there --
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you know, you have to
attach this building to that building.
MR. FABB: Exactly, that's what our goal
is. Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so basically the
turning area of the trucks is what dictates
side yard setback.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And anything smaller
than that would probably be a hardship for
you?
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Just let me make
sure I got everything I think I needed. And
you're going to remove that other building I
see --
MR. FABB: Absolutely.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- that's going -- and
you're going to clean everything else up; is
that --
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You don't anticipate any
storage containers on the property?
MR. FABB: We're going to need one, but
we will be storing that in an area where it
will be screened off from the road. We need
to do that for the State DEC.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. FABB: So we need to have that onsite
cause we have periodic constructions by then.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. FABB: But that would be the only
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
necessary container that would be on there
only because we're not allowed to store those
within the building.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is that on your site
plan anywhere?
MR. FABB: No, it's not, but we could
actually either put it next to the building or
wherever we have to.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I would just like
to maybe nail that down.
MR. FABB: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If you could, you know,
just tell us where you -- where you need it.
MR. FABB: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And maybe just put that
on as an addendum to the plan or something
like that. I'm not sure --
MR. FABB: Okay, the other option I could
do is ask them if they would allow us to do
that within the building was well. I'm not
sure how they would, usually they don't, but
maybe if it's in a fire-proof container, then
that's possible.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So what is it?
MR. FABB: It's for fertilizers and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. FABB:
have to read,
them as well.
Fertilizer.
Right, I mean some places, I
it's a very sticky situation for
So I want to make sure that if
we are allowed to do that inside, we would do
that. I do want to minimize anything from the
outside. Aesthetically, I want it to look as
best as I can.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm not so sure
that our Town even regulates those type of
containers in an LI zone.
MR. FABB: Well, any farm or any
agricultural business and any of that business
will need to have that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so I would go so
far as to ask you to do your plans, but you
could just state, you did, and for the record,
that there will be some storage containers for
fertilizer.
MR. FABB: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
this.
MR. FABB: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Jim,
You know, in addition to
Is that adequate,
or do you want anything --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I think it sounds to
me like this is something that is required,
they're going to do it naturally, but if --
think if we hold them to a particular spot on
that site plan maybe that's a problem.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It probably is
because he still has to have Planning Board
approval.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And so we don't
want to hamper their options with you and it
already looks like you have a pretty well
articulated site plan before us.
MR. FABB: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3%N: And it is
recommended, by the way, we have a letter with
comment from the Planning Board indicating
that they support the ZBA's approval of your
application.
MR. FABB: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, certainly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that's important
to also note. I don't see any impact at all
on the character of the neighborhood other
than a positive improvement. You know, it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
an LI zone. That type of operation all up and
down that side of Cox Lane and I think you're
doing a very good job of attempting to clean
up the property.
MR. FABB: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't have any
actual questions. Do any of you?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. What would be
the normal size of the container you'd be
using, Mr. Fabb?
MR. FABB: We could shrink it down as far
as to a 20-foot. We don't need a 40-foot
container. We -- it's in our best interest to
keep as little product as possible. We do not
like to store -- we basically use what we --
you know we pick up what we use and we get rid
of it, but by law with our licensing, we need
to have a storage facility that they can come
and inspect. They do not dictate the size.
So it's in my best interest to have the
minimal size container that I possibly can.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, can I just ask
you a question while we're on the site plan?
MR. FABB: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could you come over
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
here?
MR. FABB: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The roof run-off will
be in that 10-foot corridor area. I suspect
you're putting gutters on the back of the
building?
MR. FABB: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) gutters
on the back of the building --
MR. FABB: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
contain that water; is
-- that drywell
that correct?
is to
MR. FABB: We will pipe across the front.
This is how the engineers designed --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Designed it.
MR. FABB: -- for the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So you pipe
underneath the slab across the front?
MR. FABB: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: I have questions.
Regarding the timing of your construction,
because the legal notice says, ~after removal
of the existing temporary greenhouse", are you
actually going to tear down this temporary
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
Structure first
construction?
MR. FABB:
and then proceed with
The way that we did this with
Planning originally was in order for us to be
able to continue to operate and do this, we
would put up the structure, the new proposed
structure, and before they would issue a C of
0 we would have to pull down the temporary,
remove all of that and then they would give us
a C of O. That's why we strategically placed
that temporary structure so that we're able to
do and operate while they're, you know,
constructing our building.
MEMBER HORNING: So the phrase, ~after
removal of existing temporary greenhouse,"
refers to the time period between the new
construction and the issuance of a CO?
MR. FABB: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anybody else?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone in the
audience wish to speak in favor or against
this application?
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hearing no further comments, I'll
reserving
Okay,
make a motion to close this hearing,
decision to a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEDfRING #6106B - Harbes Family Farm, LLC
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"This applicant has applied for a
proposed change of use from farm buildings to
winery/tasting room buildings. Request for
Variances from Code Section 280-13A(4)C, based
on an application for building permit and the
Building Inspector's amended September 25,
2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning the
proposed conversion of existing farm buildings
to winery buildings is not permitted as winery
buildings are required to be setback a minimum
of 100 feet from a major road; Buildings 1-4
are at: less than the code required 100 foot
setback from Sound Ave., and less than the
code required 100 foot setback from Hallock
Lane, at 715 Hallock Ln., Mattituck, NY. CTM:
120-1-4."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, is
anyone here to represent this application?
MRS. HARBES: I'm here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please
come to the -- yes.
for the record.
MRS. HA_RBES:
State your name, please,
Hello, my name is Monica
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
Harbes and I'm here from Harbes Family Farm
and Vineyard.
BOARD SECRETARY: Before we get started,
do you have your affidavit of posting and the
green slip?
MRS. HARBES: I do.
BOARD SECRETARY: Could you give that to
me, please?
MRS. HARBES: Thank you.
BOARD SECRETARY: Oh, this is the
mailing. The posting that you posted the
sign.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The yellow --
MRS. HARBES: They're on the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're on the
property.
BOARD SECRETARY: You're supposed to
bring us an affidavit of posting for the sign.
It was in the packet that they mailed you.
MRS. HARBES: It was posted on the actual
structure that we want to have -- (inaudible)
and there's another one out by the street.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, they're
posted. We know that, but that's something in
addition to. What the applicant needs to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
bring into the office, and you can do it after
this hearing --
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- it's not going
to hold up anything. There's just an
affidavit saying that you did, in fact, put
them on the property.
BOARD SECRETARY: Actually, this one
laminated it. You don't have to laminate it.
At the top it says affidavit of sign posting,
you just bring that into the office. You need
the original.
MRS. FU~RBES: That's fine. Is it this
one?
BOARD SECRETARY: Let's see.
MRS. HARBES: Is it that?
next
BOARD SECRETARY: Yes,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
couple of days.
that's the one.
So just bring it in
Okay, since this is yours, Ken, do you
want to begin with your questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Questions. Okay, I
think we have three existing farm buildings
that you'd like to convert to wine tasting
rooms, correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. HARBES: Three buildings?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I believe so.
MRS. HARBES: It's only one (inaudible)
and I have to apologize, my husband Ed would
have been here, but he had a -- he had to get
to the -- he had a doctor's appointment 11:30
that could not wait.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
MRS. HARBES: So my apologies that he's
not here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, well from
looking at the site plan it looks like three
wine tasting rooms.
MRS. HARBES: May I look at your --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And there's one,
building #3 that's listed as a wine making
facility as opposed to wine tasting.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The wine making.
(MRS. HARBES IS NOT AT THE MIKE.)
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh.
So this is what's happening now. This is
the wine tasting proposed room #2 and this is
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. Let me
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
ask, just so the transcript -- Mrs. Harbes is
talking to Ken about the nature of each of
these buildings and I think it's important
that we all hear this discussion. So why
don't we do this?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
somewhere?
Do you want to set up
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you come to the
middle here and all the members who wish to go
over this again can stand up and come look at
the same thing together.
MEMBER GOERRINGER: Yeah, this way you're
closer to the mike. Actually, we'll turn the
mike around.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Yes, so that the
(inaudible).
MRS. HARBES: The reason why I asked to
come up here is cause you said we wanted three
wine tasting rooms and that is -- as far as
I'm concerned, I didn't think that was what we
were trying to do.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. HARBES: Oh.
Oh.
It doesn't say on that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Actually, it is a wine
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
making facility, is one building.
MS. HARBES: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's building #3.
MS. HARBES: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And then it looks like
you have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which one is --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- wine tasting room.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, actually 3.
MRS. HARBES: Right here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is building
#3.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Here's the wine
tasting room.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There's one here.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Tasting room.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
room.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Okay.
#2 is a new tasting
Tasting room.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
being used that way.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Ail
room.
That one is already
right, tasting
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CFLAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's the one --
MRS. HARBES: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Building #4.
C~IAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This one is also
listed as --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's indicated --
MRS. HARBES: Wine making facility.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: This is going to be
another wine tasting room back here.
MRS. HARBES: Wine tasting, correct.
Yes.
That's the large barn.
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's -- the big
barn is going to be wine tasting. This is
wine making.
MRS. HARBES: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, this is
already being used as wine tasting.
MRS. HARBES: Currently, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And another little
one back here --
MS. ~ARBES: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- is going to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
for wine tasting. You're going to have people
tasting wine all over your property.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And they're all
existing buildings.
MRS. HARBES: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: All these buildings
are existing, this is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which one is the
one with the setback from Sound, you know,
from the North Road?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This one here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay and that one
is noticed at being setback at 89 feet from
that road frontage. All right, then -- that's
okay. Then we've got the setback -- all the
rest of them are setback from what is Hallock
Lane, which is actually the setbacks that the
notice indicates are setbacks from major
roads. I think it's incumbent upon us to talk
about the nature of this road since it is
really a much smaller road with Ag property on
this side and provides access to all the
houses that are up here on Sound going from
your house going along your grapes and all
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
that other stuff.
So in order for us to understand the
nature of these proposed setbacks, because
they're preexisting nonconforming structures,
we need to talk a little bit about this road,
I think.
MEMBER SCHI~EIDER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are we all clear --
are you clear on --
MRS. HARBES: I am clear on that. I
thought we had already -- the ZBA had already
talked about this roadway.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You did mention it at
the last hearing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: We did in a
previous hearing.
MRS. HARBES: Last year.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We did do that in a
previous hearing, but members of the Board
have changed slightly and --
MRS. HARBES: I see.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA~: -- it's probably a
good thing for all of us to review it together
now because we have this before us.
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MRS. FLARBES: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to --
where is building #2, the new tasting room?
This is building #1.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is 2.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is 2.
MRS. }{ARBES: It's already -- well, we're
closed right now.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay,
building #3 is wine making facility and then
this is the new wine tasting room.
MRS. HARBES: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a large --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A large barn.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So there is no
restriction on how many tasting facilities or
rooms or buildings that a winery operation can
have?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Come back over here,
us.
your
In our Town?
Vicki, and talk with
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: To be honest with
when the Board of Appeals originally
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
granted special permits for these, okay, most
of them were within existing large barns as --
or new large barns, as in the case of -- new
large buildings so to speak. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And I'm referring to
the (Inaudible) one that's on the Main Road
now in Cutchogue.
MRS. HARBES: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The one just west of
that -- I always have an aversion to that
gentleman's name. I apologize, whatever it is
before you get to Manor Hill and, not anything
personal, I assure you, and those were
granted. So this is, to be honest with you,
the first one that I can remember that has
multiple tasting rooms within a truly agrarian
type of facility. When I say agrarian, I'm
referring to agricultural type of facility and
that's probably one of the reasons why the
Board looked at this originally, cause we've
had a couple of hearings on this, right, and
most of the information that was concerning
the Board in reference to setbacks, cause
that's what we do, Mrs. Harbes, of course,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
have been mitigated in reference to setbacks.
Some of which were preexisting buildings and
some of which were not. So I hope that
answers your question only to say to you that,
again, going back in a symmetrical form we --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You know, the question
was there really is no Code per se for how
many locations a winery may taste their
product on the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
to talk?
Vicki, did you want
BOARD SECRETARY: Most of the accessory
buildings and just for point of reference for
everybody as it comes into play here, just
from being where I was prior to here --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Building
Department.
BOARD SECRETARY:
Winery, Petrocelli's,
-- is Peconic Bay
Rafael, they're all
doing satellite wine tasting buildings.
They'll probably not have to come to this
Board, but will go through site plan.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Because --
BOARD SECRETARY: Because they're
(inaudible) variances.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Conforming spaces --
BOARD SECRETARY: Conforming locations.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Locations.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Satellite, oh, you
mean the same location or --
BOARD SECRETARY: On the same property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY: Peconic Bay may come to
us only because they're going to conform --
convert that farmstand --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
BOARD SECRETARY:
tasting room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
BOARD SECRETARY:
Yeah.
-- into a satellite
Yeah, the old --
FYI, just so you see
what's going on and Rafael's proposing a brand
new building. Property size wise, that's why
they probably will not come before the Board.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
(inaudible).
BOARD SECRETARY:
Exactly.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
It's going to be
Conforming location.
Okay, now is that
(inaudible) from a major road and the other
side yard, the other yard locations are --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
BOARD SECRETARY: They don't look at --
they look at that as a road, it's a road.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
BOARD SECRETARY: It's considered a front
yard road setback, but how the Board wants to
interpret --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it is a front
yard.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, maybe it would
be a good time to talk about that now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But it's not --
it's certainly not the same kind of road as
the North Road.
BOARD SECRETARY: Exactly. Building
doesn't say, oh, it's a dirt road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They don't make the
distinction.
BOARD SECRETARY: It's just like a right-
of-way that somebody uses.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Maybe Mrs. Harbes can
speak on this road here, Hallock Lane. How
many homes use that or dwellings use that,
could you estimate or give us a number?
MRS. HARBES: Currently, we are -- our
home -- our dwelling is the only full-time.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
We're the only ones that are there 365 days
out of the year.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MRS. HARBES: I have neighbors that are
currently knocked their house down and are
rebuilding.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's the one we
had.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's the one we
granted the variance.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Next to you, yes.
MRS. HARBES: Yes and then the next
neighbor he resides in Manhattan and he comes
out seems only in the summer.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MRS. HARBES: The next couple have a
business in the city. They're in the
advertising business, so they're again out
only on the weekends for the most part.
There's another family that lives in
(Inaudible), I don't know, who's been here for
30 years, but (Inaudible) have that
(inaudible) house, that family they have two
kids and he works on Wall Street. So they're
out -- they're not out full-time either.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. HARBES: So that's the status of who
lives there and also there, to be honest with
you, there's one more man who has a little
bungalow and he's hardly ever out. He's
actually ill and then my son has his house and
that's it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
dozen dwellings?
MRS. HARBES: Yeah,
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
would be minimally used.
So there's less than a
about six.
Six, okay. So it
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the other
thing is clearly the Planning Board, who
really has to do the site plan approval on
this, is certainly going to have something to
say in terms of the impacts, environmental
impacts. They've already completed SEQRA on
this and declared things as negative
declarations. So they are not seeing any
environmental impacts, which is important for
us to know about, that's why we were delaying
your original application. The site plan
approval in terms of traffic impacts and so on
had to be examined by the state in terms of
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
any adverse affects and clearly there is going
to be a lot more traffic though because, you
know, when this is implemented, you're going
to have possibly buses coming up here, you
know, with tours and so on. So this road is
going to have a lot more traffic on it in
terms of the public, you know --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- when that
happens, but it has not been determined to be
an adverse affect by SEQP~A according to SEQRA.
So really what's before us are a series
of accessory structures that have preexisting
nonconforming setbacks from front yard, two
front yards really, and the one that is
probably the largest, clearly, is the biggest
structure. The big barn is only 8.7 feet from
that road. None of these buildings can really
successfully be moved. I mean they are
buildings that have been there a very long
time that are wood frame and, you know, they
I don't certainly see, historically, I think
it would be nice for them to just simply stay
where they are. Especially the smaller
buildings, which have substantially larger
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129
setbacks anyway. The biggest one is this one
right here cause there would be an awful lot -
- it's really close to the road, but I don't
know, do any of you have any comments or
questions or thoughts about this? Jim?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I wasn't part of
the whole thing, but I'm assuming you're going
to have to do something with that road,
Hallock Lane. Beef it up a little bit and is
there any plans to do that, do you know?
MRS. HARBES: Uh, meaning widen it?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, yeah. Yeah, just
make it so you could have it all this traffic
on there.
MRS. HARBES: There is another --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's pretty substantial
now.
MRS. HARBES: You mean like repaying it?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. HARBES: I
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Yeah.
think --
Making it wider.
MRS, HARBES:
us to widen it to 28 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right,
be -- that all probably has
I know the Town was asking
so it'll have to
to be done.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. HARBES: But we kind of ran into a
little problem cause there's a beautiful old
maple tree right here and we --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MRS. HARBES: -- don't want to cut down a
nice maple tree to make a road.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MRS. HARBES: But I know that Ed is, you
know, he wants to work with the town as well
so we can get moving on this. This has been a
five-year project.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. What's the reason
for all the tasting rooms? What's the -- I'm
sure you --
MRS. HARBES: Okay, I can explain that.
Well, for ourselves, we planted our vineyard
in 2003, five acres. I'm glad we only planted
five acres cause it's very expensive.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's a lot of work.
MRS. HARBES: It's a lot of work, and we
want to remain a viable agricultural business,
and in order to do that because we now have
bonafide grapes that we're turning into, you
know, making into wine, people are coming out
to the east end because they want an
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
experience. So we're fortunate in that we not
only grow grapes, but we also grow corn, we
grow pumpkins, we grow tomatoes, we grow a
gamut of things and flowers, so I feel blessed
in that we can provide all these wonderful
products to people that are coming out to the
east end. So not only are they going to come
to us, they're going to go to, you know,
Krutski's, they're going to go to Raphael --
well, not so much Raphael, but (inaudible) and
all the other vineyards because you can't go
to New York city and get an experience like
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, but I'm talking
specifically --
MRS. HARBES: Oh, I didn't (inaudible)
your question.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- about the actual
square footage of each building.
MRS. HARBES: Why little barn -- wine
tasting barns?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, why --
MRS. HARBES: You didn't visit me last
summer.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're really
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
little.
MRS. HARBES: I can only handle about 20
people --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know but I mean you're
having -- I thought there was just two,
there's three separate locations where you're
going to be pouring wine.
MRS. HARBES: I know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What's the --
MRS. HARBES: -- because why not ask for
the sky because you might not get it or at
least you might get a couple of things.
MEMBER DINIZIO: All right.
MRS. HARBES: So I was, you know, Ed, my
husband is spearheading this project more so
than I am because I have other things that I
do, but --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Land preservation
among them.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. No, no, I just --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We certainly could
ask for him to give us a letter --
MRS. HARBES: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- and ask him to
justify --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, cause I didn't --
that answer you gave about the (inaudible) --
MRS. HARBES: My tasting room was too
small and we looked at the barn and here's
another reason. Have you walked into that big
white barn that we want to convert into a
tasting room?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I went up the road
and looked.
MRS. HARBES: You have to come in. If
you're in the area, I'll gladly take you in
and I'll show you. One of our wine labels, my
son designed it, and it was my daughter's
idea, let's take some of the icons from our
farm and put them on our wine bottles and
that's exactly what we did. We make a
Chardonnay Wooden Wheel. Excuse me. It's an
oaked Chardonnay and we have a picture of a
wooden wheel that's hanging in our barn. It's
this huge -- has anybody been in this barn?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MRS. HARBES: You know what I'm talking
about. It's a huge round wheel that was used
as an elevator. So years ago the farmer
previous years ago used to lower his produce
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
down into the basement. Potatoes cause
there's a basement down there. It's gorgeous.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it's using a pulley
wheel --
MRS. HARBES: It's gorgeous. Talk about
farm history and farm beauty.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I tell you, you
know, I think Jerry's right especially now.
How long is this hearing going to go? Are we
going to close it today or --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can close it
subject to receipt or we can leave it open, if
you want.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I just would like
if I could get a satisfactory answer to the
reason why so many different locations on this
one piece of property have to be tasting
rooms. That's what I'm looking for.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I might be able to
comment on that if the Board allows me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure, I --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I worked in the wine
business for a while and, at the height of the
season, which is the height of the season in
the fall, you get inundated with people.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
There's people all over your operation so to
speak and if you have one tasting bar, it's
inundated maybe three or four people deep.
People hang out, they don't get served, they
go elsewhere. Having satellite locations to
serve the public is at the advantage of that
business because you can spread out so to
speak. Like all right you set up in the old
lemonade stand and you can sell wine in there.
So that's going to draw people there and
that's really the reason, is to strike while
the iron is hot, while the people are there.
As probably the Harbes know more than
anybody else, during pumpkin season Sound
Avenue is inundated and to spread that
commerce out and you know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's really the
advantage that they're looking for, is the
fact that they --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- want to be able to
have another (inaudible) of barn to --
MRS. HARBES: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Otherwise there
wouldn't be an advantage because you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
triplicating all the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: --
that function.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
thinking.
Services here.
accoutrements to
Services, yes.
that's what I was
That's my opinion and
cost
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the ability to
handle increased volumes of customers by
having multiple locations --
MEMBER DINIZIO: So,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~:
-- offsets the cost
obviously --
-- is offset by the
of having duplicative
MRS. HARBES: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
the Liquor Authority,
MRS. HARBES: No,
services.
No problem with
that kind of stuff?
all our paperwork is in
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was kind of looking for.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
my experience.
(TO0 MANY SPEAKING AT THE SAME TIME)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, that's what I
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
order.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MRS. HARBES: I mean we could show you
that we're (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, not at all. I'm
just --
MRS. }{ARBES: And we're (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- looking for a reason
why you had to have that many.
MRS. HARBES: Cause my wine tasting barn
is too small and like Ken, you know,
rightfully said if you have too many people
there they're going to come up and they're
going to walk away. I don't want to lose that
customer.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. HARBES: And also when they come you
want to be able to explain to them, you know,
do a tasting, here are our Chardonnays and you
can't talk about -- explain what your product
is if they can't even get to your --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If they can't hear
you or --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER HORNING:
Right.
Two quick questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. HARBES: Sure.
MEMBER HORNING: Did you say there was an
actual basement under this large building?
MRS. H~LRBES: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: A full basement?
MRS. HARBES: I've never gone down there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It may very well be.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There could be
potatoes down there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Somehow, George, in
sum what they do is they pull 'em back --
MRS. HARBES: I don't think it's a full
basement.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: They pull 'em back,
you know, (inaudible) so there's just --
(TO0 M3~NY PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME
TIME.)
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Originally it was for
agricultural storage?
MRS. HARBES: Oh yes.
MEMBER HORNING: D~nd the height of the
proposed deck --
MRS. HARBES: (Inaudible) barn.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: -- could you just
reiterate what that is on grade, the proposed
deck?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If you can't answer
that, Monica, just have Ed mention it in the
letter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: It's just pavers on
-- at grade.
MEMBER HORNING: Is that what it is,
pavers on grade?
CFIAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: It should say. I
don't know --
MEMBER HORNING: Well, it says, proposed
deck.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's drawn as
pavers, that's not the way you draw a deck.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know, I know.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But, who knows. We
could find out, it depends on who did the
drawing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's description that
rules, right?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so let's
get a little list of what you want in this
letter. We want to know -- have Ed address,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
the record now reflects the potential reason
for multiple tasting rooms on the premises --
MRS. HARBES: Okay. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- but ask him to
supply that information.
MRS. HARBES: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ask him to tell us
what the nature of this decking material is by
the big barn.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the height, if
it's off the ground.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is it at grade or
whatever, and one other question I had.
Because this big barn is so close to the road,
just in terms of public safety, if this
setback is kind of buffered with landscaping
so people couldn't -- weren't tempted to walk
this way, but rather walked that way so they
weren't spilling out into the road, is that a
problem for you? Is it okay to -- would you
accept a condition of just simply putting in a
evergreen arborvitae something just so that
this can become --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. HARBES: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- a little
walkway?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't know. If I
could just comment on that, because --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: You can, of course.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- if there's large
landscaping and people see that and they don't
see the road, they could walk through that
landscaping and then into the road. It could
be a danger, versus some hard structure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what I'm
trying to do is prevent them from even using
this, certainly not the road.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: The intent would be
to prevent them from using the road and this -
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I would prefer a fence
or some type of structure as opposed to
something they could walk through that would
blind their sight so to speak.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what I'm
suggesting is landscaping they couldn't walk
through.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: For the same reason
rather than putting up a fence, just some
vegetatiYe buffer that would --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You could put a --
C}{AIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- you know, direct
circulation --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- split-rail fence
up right across.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: -- and screen this
from --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right across that all
the way to this point.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, (inaudible).
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, Jim is
talking about letting the Planning Board take
care of that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's site plan. It
is site plan.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But we often
condition setbacks with various things like
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
screening.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What's wrong with a
split-rail fence across here?
MRS. HARBES: There are arborvitaes
planted along here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, all right.
Well, it's a thought. We'll leave it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We'll leave it
inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so we're
just going to ask for a submission of the
letter clarifying the reason for multiple
tasting rooms --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't need that, by
the way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: You don't?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'd like to have it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You originally
asked for it.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
a business thing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
still?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
I know, but I mean it's
Okay. You want it
Yeah, I want it,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
sure. We're going to ask him the question on
the rest of it. Just throw it in.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: George wanted to
know about the nature of the deck.
MRS. HDdqBES: The deck, okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I think another
question that should be asked also is why not
try to locate a new wine making facility in a
conforming location? Being the wine making
facility itself would require more
modernization than just say a three-car garage
(inaudible). You don't have to write it all
down. Just why not some -- why not a new
building somewhere else with a wine making --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that question.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
We actually asked him
Oh, you did?
Yeah and, Monica
don't -- it's from what I recollect, okay,
these were long hearings, okay, if you
remember. Okay, and you and Ed sat right
there in the front row, remeraber?
MRS. HARBES: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, he said that
this building in particular is a very historic
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
building and --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
tasting room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
one.
(Inaudible) wine
Yeah, the present
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Ail right,
point this was a tasting room, too,
so I guess they opted to make this now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, that is the
tasting room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That is still a
tasting room.
MRS. HARBES: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I apologize, I am
sorry. But in both situations he reflected
these as being historic buildings.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that is the
reason why he wanted to utilize those.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As opposed to
anything else.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Because of the
historic significance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not only historic
significance, but if you look at the site
itself, because of the number of accessory
structures that are already there, it's very
intensively covered and where would you put
something new of any size without knocking
down something that is of historic value?
MEMBER SCHI~EIDER:
historic significance.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Okay. So it's
I thought the whole
project was to use up the buildings.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's to do
adaptive reuse of existing structures. I mean
it's to preserve them and to utilize them in a
-- for another agricultural use.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MRS. HARBES: We're also outsourcing
premium wine to make some of our wine because
I don't know that we want to spend -- invest a
million and two million, however much it's
going to be, in all this wine making facility
stuff.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're not giving
yourself a big enough space to do it in for
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
one thing. You know, that's gonna limit your
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's just to show some
barrels and that's all the people want to see
anyway.
MRS. HARBES: Yeah. That premium wine is
a full-time job.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, anything
else you can think you want to put in the
letter, put it in.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Whatever Ed wants
to put in there but at least have him address
the multiple tasting rooms and the deck
material.
MRS. HARBES: What is the next step from
here?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: The next step is
that since there's nobody in the audience, we
assume there's no comments, I'm going to
propose to close this hearing and reserving
decision to a later date --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Pending.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and that would
be at the earliest it would be at our next
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
meeting which is going to be in the evening at
6:00 on Tuesday, March --
BOARD SECRETARY: Pending receipt of this
letter.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, that too.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~-N: We'll close it
pending receipt of the notice of posting and
the letter from Ed.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: which if you can
get in the next week, that's fine.
MRS. HARBES: Certainly, we'll do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: And that's all
we'll need and then we'll make a decision and
that decision would -- at the earliest, we
have 62 days from the date we close this,
which would be today, to make a decision. We
will try to make it before 62 days.
When is our special meeting, on March --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 16.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- 16.
MRS. HARBES: 16th, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And you're welcome
to attend and can come, it'll be in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
evening, in the annex, in the bank building
upstairs.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Upstairs, the old
conference room.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right across from
here (inaudible). And that's where we will
deliberate over a draft Ken will write because
he's the assigned member and that's it. You
don't have to do anything else. Just get us
that affidavit and a letter from Ed.
MRS. HARBES: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: And just get it to
Vicki in the office.
MRS. HARBES: Okay, the affidavit --
BOARD SECRETARY: Of posting, the
original affidavit of posting, right, and then
the letter from Ed.
MRS. HARBES: Okay, thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so I'll make
a motion to close the hearing subject to
receipt of an affidavit of posting and a
letter from Mr. Harbes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING #6294 Paul T. Betancourt
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The next
application is from Paul T. Betancourt, it's a
carryover. Since it's a carryover, there's no
need to read the Notice of Disapproval.
Jerry's assigned.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How are you today,
sir? State your name for the record.
MR. STRA-NG: Garrett Strang, architect on
behalf of Mr. Betancourt.
I do have a receipt today which I'd like
to submit to the Board, it is a copy of the
findings from a consulting engineer that
assessed the interesting structural foundation
of the building.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Who was that? Who
was that?
MR. STRANG: John Condon.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. STRA/qG: Okay, I have this. I have
the original and, I don't
copies for the Board.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq:
summarize it for us, Garrett,
MR. STRANG: Yes, I can.
know, six or seven
Thank you. Can you
please?
He essentially
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
made another onsite inspection specifically
focused on the foundation of the building
finding that it has a structurally suitable
foundation meets all Code requirements. The
footing is below grade the proper distance at
a minimum 3 feet and is adequate to support a
two-story structure and he also went on to say
that if we needed to do any reinforcing for
point loads or whatever, they could be
sufficient -- it could be done within the
confines of the footprint of the foundation
without having to step outside.
So I believe that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He saw the plan
with your reinforced -- the proposed
reinforced (inaudible)?
MR. STRANG: Yes. I forwarded the
sketches that you basically are looking at to
him as well, before he made this onsite
inspection.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Garrett, since it's
been a little while and Mr. Dinizio is back
with us, which we're very happy about, maybe
you could just briefly, quickly, summarize
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
where we are at this particular time? Not
necessarily where we came from, but --
MR. STRANG: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- where we are.
MR. STRANG: I believe, at this point,
the Board was looking for more specific, if
you will, renderings of the floor plan of the
house, the proposed floor plan alterations and
exterior views, and some verification that we
would be able to accomplish what we're looking
to accomplish without any compromise to the
bluff and to do that, you know, the work that
we're proposing to do is behind the existing
footprint of the house and any structure
reinforcing, as mentioned a moment ago, would
be within the footprint of the existing house.
The additions, of course, are roadside of the
existing house as well
east side of the house,
Coastal Erosion Line.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
as a bump off to the
but again behind the
Okay, do you just
want to touch base on that one corner that you
were referring to and the loading of that
corner or the unloading of that corner, so to
speak, which is the closest to the bluff?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. STRANG: Right. Based on the
sketches you're looking at, that existing
corner, what we're proposing to do is take the
loading off that corner by pulling back
several feet in each direction the loading
column and cantilevering that corner so that
the load is basically removed from that
critical, if you will, corner of the structure
and that can be easily accomplished, again,
from within the confines of the existing
crawlspace.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. And the issue
of -- has any soil test been done here, recent
soil test on this property?
done
MR. STRANG: There was not a test hole
there, no.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Do we know what the
looks like in question in reference to
soil
typical sandy condition below any type of -- I
know you said no, but you've done some work up
there. Is there any idea of what Aquaview
contains or consists of?
MR. STRANG: I can't honestly answer that
question in any fashion that would be
considered insight, knowledgeable since we
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
haven't done a test hole. I haven't done
anything in that immediate area, but looking
at the land itself it appears to be very well
drained. I have not seen any ponding or
standing water there and the bank itself, or
the bluff, if you will, is stable and well
vegetated with the exception of some damage by
deer, which everything seems to be suffering
from these days.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. STRANG: But otherwise than that, it
is a good and a solid, sound bank. So I'd
have to assume that the soil conditions there
are quite stable and suitable. I'm assuming a
mix of sand and gravel as typically would be
found, a layer of loam or some sort of top
soil for the first 6-16 inches, typically.
Below that should be -- we should find a sand
and gravel mix, which would be normal for that
area.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Assuming the area is
in -- some of the bluff areas have a
significant amount of clay --
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- which in some
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
cases is good and other cases is not, the area
that's covered up is probably okay, and I'm
not speaking as a soil consultant because I am
not, but having had relatives in houses on the
Sound. As you know, as you go down Aquaview
closer to Rocky Point, there are some of these
houses that are actually built over the
preexisting -- over the CZM line and are
teetering on the top of the bluff.
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Have you noticed that
there is, or heard of any significant erosion
to any of the bluff areas within that general
vicinity recently?
MR. STRANG: I have not, but again I
haven't done a thorough analysis of
neighboring properties, but again in general
it appears, if you were to look from the
waterside, walk up and down the beach, which I
have had occasion and have taken the
opportunity to do with respect to this
application, the bluff seems to be quite
stable up and down or east and west, if you
will, of the subject property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Most of the water
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
run-off is going to be placed into drains at
what locations?
MR. STRANG: The -- there is, the site
plan does show, the placement of drywells to
pick roof run-off.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MR. STR3%NG: So it
Right.
is already --
that was
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a condition of the Trustees' permit --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. STRANG: -- which has been issued on
this project.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, they're on
here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're on the
(inaudible).
MR. STRANG: And we have them shown
there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm just trying to
recap everything so that if anybody has any
questions they're coming up now.
MR. STRANG: All right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If I'm not mistaken,
this is the third hearing on this, okay.
MR. STRANG: Yes I believe so.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And maybe hopefully
the final hearing for everybody's benefit,
more particularly your client. The only other
question I had is we originally had a larger
swimming pool, which has been shrunk; is that
correct?
MR. STP~ANG: Yes, that is correct. We
have reduced the size of the pool.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's now 16 by 32?
MR. STRANG: I believe that's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Is that correct?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's what I
have.
MEMBER HORNING: 16 by 32.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: Yes, 16 by 32. I
forget what it was originally.
MR. STRANG: Originally 20 by 40.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we have amended
relief, really (inaudible) before us.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, and the pump-
out for the pool is where?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That reduced the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
lot coverage though, didn't it?
MR. STRA_NG: That reduced the lot
coverage, I believe to make it --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
I have.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
I think that's what
I think you told us
it was going be conforming.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have to get my
notes out from the previous hearings, but I'm
pretty sure that's what happened. I think we
eliminated that variance.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, we did submit at the
last hearing a revised Notice of Disapproval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq: We have a November
17th revised notice.
MR. STRANG: That's correct. That's the
most recent one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a lot --
lot coverage is noted at 25.1 percent.
MR. STRA/qG: Okay, you're correct. It
was more than that previously.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so we still
have a lot coverage variance?
MR. STRANG: Yes, we do. We have a front
yard setback, a lot coverage, and a setback
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
from the bluff. Oh, I believe, if I recall --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The pool is also
technically in a side yard because of the
garage.
MR. STR3kNG: Because of the garage
projection forward, that's correct and what we
did eliminate was we had a requirement for a
side yard relief that was under the previous
plan and we have set the house back on that
east side somewhat so we're now conforming
with the side yards, I believe. Let's see.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 12.5 side yard on
the east.
MR. STRA~NG: Let me just get --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that's 25 feet.
MR. STRANG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
yard. We still have --
MR. STRANG: We have
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~:
25 on the other. Is that
combined? No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
No, wait a minute,
The 25-foot side
10 on the one --
10 on the one and
-- what about the
That's 21,466.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The proposed
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
terrace is at grade, right, Garrett?
MR. STRANG: The proposed terrace is at
grade, that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's the combined
side yard, 35 feet? What's the combined on
this size property?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MR. STRANG: Yeah,
It's over 20,000.
it's a touch over 20.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it's over 20.
I'm trying to see if we -- because with a --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's gotta go over
three-quarters to get the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- combined 35-foot
total side yard setbacks --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It has to be 20 and
35 -- 20 and 15.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we still have a
variance for that, the combined side yard.
MR. STRANG: For the combined, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. STRANG: That's,
seriously minimized..
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
correct and --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Okay.
yeah, that's been
Right. Well, 35 is
20 and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we have 35
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have a total of
35 then.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's it. So it's
conforming.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it's conforming.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Combined side yard.
MR. STRANG: I have to apologize, I
believe I turned in, to you at the last
hearing, my copy of the site plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have several.
Several versions as a matter of fact.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's the reason why
I'm referring to the entire --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we had to
just get an update to make sure that this
decision is written properly.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. The last issue
I have is, and I believe you may have
mentioned this to us before, we have -- when
you were referring to the terrace, were you
referring to the front area?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Here?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is technically
the pool and terrace would be in a side yard -
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So you're saying that
that's at grade?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- because of this
garage --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that's at grade?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: -- and it's at
grade.
MR. STR3LNG: It is at grade, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. So there
really is no specific additional cutting that
can be done?
MR. STRAIqG: We've cut back about as much
as we can, at this point, I believe.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRA-NG: To make, you know, make the
project feasible and usable.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're still
proposing a flat roof at this point?
MR. STRANG: Yes, we are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. STRANG: You'll note from the
drawings in front of you also that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Yes and we
appreciate the, certainly having a floor plan
to see how you're filling in what's on the
site plan. It's a good deal of sense because
you have a better idea of what's existing now
and how you're transforming it as a proposal.
MR. STRANG: And you can see that the
overall scope of the project is not
(inaudible) --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Generally within
the footprint.
MR. STP~AIqG: -- and it's set back. The
second floor is set back and reduced in size
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Yes.
MR. STRANG: -- from the original design
that was submitted with the original
application. So we have scaled back
substantially from our first application.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What do we have on
total square footage? Do you have it or you
can supply it to us on the main floor and
total square footage on the second floor?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. STRANG: I can get that to you. I
don't believe I have that calculated in front
of me here.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, that would
be greatly appreciated.
MR. STR3%NG: If I can do that in letter
form at the --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure. We just need
it by like (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What were you
asking for?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Total square footage
first floor, total square footage second
floor.
MR. STR3YNG:
proposed?
You want existing and
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that'll be
good.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to make
sure we have all of these required variances?
The total side yard setback has disappeared.
We're looking at lot coverage at 25.1 percent.
Side yard setback at 10 percent (sic) when the
Code requires 15. Pool in a side yard and
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
bluff setback.
MR. STRANG: That's
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
correct.
Total side yard of
what?
10 percent? 10 and it should be 15.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Correct, single
side yard.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
15 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A single side yard,
15 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Single.
THE COURT: Code requires 15.
MR. STPJuNG: 15, right and the lot
coverage we have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Lot coverage, pool
in side yard and bluff setback at what is it
40?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Garrett, I can see
that there are roof drains in the flat roof of
this house; is that correct?
MR. STR3%NG: There will be either
perimeter or roof drains --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: How do they drain, do
they drain down through the side walls and
then into the outside catch basins?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MR. STR3LNG: We will have overhangs. So
preferably they will be coming down on the
exterior of the building.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I see.
MR. STR3%NG: But if we have to absolutely
run them interior of the building, which I
prefer not to --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. STRANG: -- they would run interior
and then be piped to the exterior catch
basins.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRANG: But my preference would be
to get them to the outside and run them down
the outside of the building.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What will the lot
look like after the construction is done?
Will there be grass on the exterior except for
any other type of erosion control you intend
to use by the bluff or what will be done?
What will the landscaping encompass?
MR. STRANG: Well, the area between the
house and the bluff is going to remain as it
presently is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
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MR. STR3~NG: It's landscape, lawn, and
some enhanced natural indigenous vegetation.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. STR~_NG: On the roadside, I believe
I'd have to defer to Mr. Betancourt who is
as to what his plans may be with
present,
that.
MR.
MIKE.]
BETAI~COURT: (Inaudible). [NOT AT
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you come --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thanks.
MR. BETANCOURT: As far as I --
BOARD SECRETARY: Would you just enter
your name for the record?
MR. BETANCOURT: Okay, I'm Tim Betancourt
or Paul T. Betancourt as you may have me
there.
My intention is to landscape as much as
possible. So less decking and more plants,
you know, as much as I can get on both sides
depending on, you know, the amount of light
that they get and so on. So --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAI~: Certainly on the
seaward side you would be planting with native
vegetation rather than turf.
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MR. BETANCOURT: Exactly. That's all,
you know, managed up until now and I would
have -- and it's doing very well.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Great. Clean the
poison ivy.
MR. BETANCOURT:
isn't too much --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MR. BETANCOURT: --
what it looks like. So
Well,
fortunately there
Yeah, I know.
but I don't even know
I just --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Better find out
before it finds you.
MR. BETANCOURT: Stay away from anything
that looks close to it.
Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim, do you have
any questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, I think I'm
questioned out.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm set.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Good. Anyone else
in the audience wish to address this
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application?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
decision to a later date.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM/LN: Second by Jerry,
all in favor?
COLLECTIVE: Aye.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Unanimous.
MR. STRANG: Okay, thank you and I will
have that letter to you within the next few
days.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you so
much, Garrett.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, you know what,
actually this is not a correct motion. I
needed to close it subject to receipt of the
letter that Jerry requested.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's correct. I'll
second that.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
HEARING #6318 - Marc and Deirdre Sokol
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, this is also
-- everybody ready? This is an application
carryover on Sokol and Pat Moore's here to
represent the Sokol's. We don't need to read
the notice, but this is Jerry's findings. So
Pat, just enter your name for the record,
please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore on
behalf of Marc and Deirdre Sokol.
Since the last hearing we had agreed that
we would relocate the existing fence to the
property line on both Lakeside Drive and Cedar
Point Drive East. That was a concern the
Board had with respect to issuing a decision
on a fence that was off the premises. So we
resolved that, but I noticed -- we just
noticed today, and I apologize, the surveyor
it was a quick notation without any field
work, it was just showing the existing fence
relocated. The existing fence is actually 8
feet and the surveyor said, ~proposed 7-foot-
high deer fence." So I have to give you new
prints that say 8 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I asked about that
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
because I saw that it was down a foot from
your original --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that was a -- I did
not catch that. It was, as I said, he didn't
go out and do it in the field,
as a notation and he didn't realize that the
existing fence is 8 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Question.
he just did it
fence surrounding -- the entire fence as it
reads on -- is still proposed at 8 feet?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. The existing, the
entire fence, the existing fence is on both
sides within the property lines in the side
yard, yeah, the sides, I guess. It was only
off premises, in the grass, but off property
line along Lakeside Drive and Cedar Point
Drive East.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's right.
MRS. MOORE: So we agreed that we would
relocate the existing fence to within the --
our property line, but the existing fence is 8
feet -- still is 8 feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As proposed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Ail of it is 8 feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You end up with three
different hearings, sometimes it's a little
difficult to remember back to the first
hearing, okay.
MRS. MOORE: Okay,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
testified he indicated that he put some sort
of temporary fence up during the winter down
by the pond or the ~-
MRS. MOORE: Oh, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- do you recollect
what he said he did?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Mr. and Mrs.
Pizzicara, who are Mr. Sokol's parents, can
help me if I say anything incorrect, but my
memory is cause I happen to be at the
Trustees' meeting, the Trustees did not like
the idea of even the temporary fence within
their jurisdiction, but it was the same deer
fence or shorter,
shorter version.
a shorter fence.
I can appreciate that.
When Mr. Sokol
I don't know. It was the
Yes, well he put it -- it's
He used it to block off the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
deer from swimming onto the property. That
was removed at the request of the Trustees.
So right now we don't have any fence on the
waterside.
(SPEAKING TO SOMEONE IN AUDIENCE.)
Did they end up approving something or
not?
Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that's moot.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's good. Now,
again, I don't think Jim sat in on this
originally, but you did tell us, he wasn't
here, he wasn't on the Board, but you did tell
us that in the beginning and in the first
hearing aspect of this hearing, which still
continues, that there were particular issues
of why the fence was placed outside of the
property lines.
for a second?
MRS. MOORE:
Could you just rephrase that
Sure. Well, I believe that
the practical answer to that was their grass
goes out into the paved portion of Lakeside
Drive and Cedar Point Drive is, actually, I
would say 10 or 15 feet beyond the property
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
line. So you only see a monument in the
corner and my recollection is that there may
have been a fence there by the prior owners --
am I remember exactly? Again, its tough for
me to remember what I said so many months ago,
but when they bought the property there was a
fence in the same general area where the pre-
move existing deer fence is. So he assumed,
unfortunately incorrectly, that it could be
replaced.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there
anything else that you would like to add to
this before the Chairperson goes into -- or
the young lady that's here?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Oh yes. What, and
Jenny will, Jenny Gould and I, apparently our
clients spoke yesterday, so we're kind of --
we're not privy to the conversation. Only
what our clients tell us the
so I'm (inaudible). They're
very close, not quite exact.
conversation was
close, they're
So we tried to
put it in writing, but since neither one of us
is able to get our client, you know, in the
same room, but anyway --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Should we subpoena
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
them and get them in here?
MRS. MOORE: No, please don't do that.
That's not even funny. All right, all kidding
aside, I'm going to lose my thought process
here.
What the understanding is between Jenny's
client and my client is that, yes, we are
relocating the fence to within our property
line. We also will agree to relocate, on
Lakeside Drive, cause that's the area that
he's concerned with, that Mr. Adler is
concerned with, to relocate the privet hedge,
which is not your -- before this Board, the
privet hedge and the 4-foot fence. We're
going to put the privet hedge -- move it back
to the Lakeside Drive side of the deer fence.
So it's screened from Lakeside Drive and then
the 4-foot fence -- this is where we kind of
disagree because my client feels that the 4-
foot fence did in fact protect the integrity
of the hedge from the deer eating the hedge
away. So he wants to put the 4-foot fence,
which is to code and height, and the
Homeowners Association had no issue with it.
Again, it's also 10 feet or about
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
approximately 10 feet off of the right-of-way
area, the improved right-of-way. It's inside
the grass area and there's a lot of homes
there that have improvements in the grassy
area, landscaping and so on.
So we're moving everything on the
Lakeside Drive to clear the right-of-way
essentially or increase the width of the
right-of-way of Lakeside Drive. In exchange
for doing all that, Mr. Adler is -- Jenny
should present to the Board support for
keeping the deer fence, all existing fencing
on the east side, the common property line
between Adler and my client, as is on their
side.
The neighbor to the west didn't have any
issue with it and you can see that the deer
fence and the hedge are actually inside our
property line. It's off -- kind of meanders
through and he had -- they had no issue on
that side. So that was the agreement and if
the Board considers that when they're making
determination --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You have to give me
that in a letter because I'm not sure I
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
understand that. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
C~AIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's all right.
Just come forward.
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible) going to have to
decide. We can't totally agree.
Jennifer Gould, Main Road, Southold for -
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me just say this
to you, Jennifer, before you start that.
MS. GOULD: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is not the
nature of the Notice of Disapproval anyway.
So I, you know, I'm not positive that we
really need to recite this and counsel is
here.
MS. GOULD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just let her --
MS. GOULD: I mean we were trying to work
this out as neighbors. I mean my client and
the Sokols very much want to get along
together, okay, and so what Mr. Adler told me
in emails and the phone today, is that he
agrees to would be if they took the fence
along Lakeside Drive being moved back to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
actual property line that has been 14 feet
into the (Inaudible) foot right-of-way so that
is all clear. That was fine with him and
provided the privet hedge was located within 3
feet -- relocated within 3 feet of that fence,
moved back from --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Inside or outside?
MS. GOULD: Outside to provide screening
so no one will see their fence, which seems
reasonable --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. GOULD: -- but you know he said don't
put it like, you know, just move it back 3
feet, make it abut the fence, which seemed
reasonable to me. His issue is with the 4-
foot fence. He said with the 4-foot fence
metal or whatever it is on the road that it's
unsightly and he doesn't see the need for it,
but just have the privet in front right
abutting the 8-foot fence is all that he can
agree to as a neighbor.
On the side yard,
and west boundary line
as Pat said, the east
right now the fence is
along the line. I'm assuming it's properly
screened. That would be a condition, that it
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
is properly screened along that side yard
because when you look at it you see the fence
and you see the privet inside. Maybe it's
grown through, I haven't seen it, I don't
know, and the Adlers own the split-rail fence
which goes along the property line for the
most part, but then veers in on their property
and all the Adlers ask is that the Sokols
don't make any claim to the land between the
split-rail and the fence, the deer fence,
which is already on their line. If you see
that down towards the water?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MS. GOULD: And I suggested to the Adlers
that they just remove the split-rail and put
it on the line, so that they don't have any
issues later.
So the real issue I think is whether or
not a 4-foot fence goes in front of the
privet, which is being moved back, and that
the privet is being moved back and put right
up against the property line.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is there any reason
why you can't put that in writing and have you
both proof it cause so we could get the right
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Well, my client feels that
he needs the 4-foot fence and her client
doesn't want the 4-foot fence.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I know but you could
say that that's the only thing under dispute
at this time.
MS. GOULD: What I would prefer is that
my client put that in writing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I ask a question?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Cause I'm -- I know I
didn't attend the other hearing so maybe I'm
missing something, but I did look at the file
and I didn't see any place in the file where
it says we can grant a 4-foot fence on
property that doesn't own -- the person
doesn't own. So
MRS. MOORE:
MS. GOULD:
You're not being asked --
The question isn't granting
of a 4-foot fence.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, right.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible) understand,
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but -
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I'm just trying to
understand, Jenny.
MS. GOULD: It's kind of like if you're
granting an 8-foot fence, all we want you to
do is consider all other conditions in
granting that 8-foot fence.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand. Okay, but
I think we're here for an 8-foot fence and the
rest of it, in my opinion, just my opinion, is
spurious. It doesn't have any bearing. Now,
if you're saying to us you want a hedge, then
I'm saying the hedge has gotta be on the
property. Then the 8-foot fence behind the
hedge if you so choose. Now, if you want a 4-
foot fence in front of the hedge, being
agreeable to an 8-foot fence, then the 4-foot
fence within the property line, the hedge,
then the 8-foot fence. That's -- that's all
(inaudible).
MS. GOULD: I understand what you're
saying, but what we were trying to do is a
compromise. Say, ideally, yes, that would be
the way it would be, but my client is okay
with the idea of the 8-foot being on the
property line and the hedge being (inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
to the right-of-way. (Inaudible) on the line
and the fence behind it. (Inaudible) the
neighbor compromise with the Sokols. I
understand exactly what you're saying.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but my point is --
MS. GOULD: I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- why are you
discussing that with us?
MS. GOULD: Because we're just --
MRS. MOORE: We were trying to come to an
agreement --
MS. GOULD: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But you both
understand full well, because that's why
you're back here again, that this Board is
only going to be able to deal with things that
are within and on the property owned by the
applicant.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's why the
proposed deer fencing was moved from the
right-of-way onto the applicant's property.
So whatever happens beyond the boundaries of
that property --
MRS. MOORE:
Exactly.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MS. GOULD: Then I have to say on behalf
of my client that if that's the way it's going
to be put to us that the privet has to be on
the property line and that the fence has to be
right behind it on the property, the way it is
on the other side.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What's actually
before us, as you know, is a height variance
for an 8-foot fence in two front yards.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Now, we can rule on
that because, in fact, you're proposing it on
the applicant's property. Before that, we
were just going around in circles, you know,
listening to testimony that really was not
something that was within our jurisdiction to
deal with. So we've made progress. I think
the issues are clear and this Board has to
decide whether or not it's prepared to grant a
very unprecedented extremely substantial
variance from the Code because the Code is
silent, at this point, about deer fencing on
residential properties.
MEMBER DINIZIO: A fence is a fence,
quite honestly. It's not a question of deer
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
fence, it's not cyclone fence, it's not
stockade fence. A fence is something that's
high on the property line.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that's --
that's true, but there is the fact that
increasingly we are having problems with deer
that we haven't had before and so the Code
Committee will be addressing that, frankly, as
they should because it's very timely and there
are many people property owners who are
concerned about deer management. This Board
has to decide, since there is nothing that
talks about deer fencing particularly,
although, yes a fence is a fence, what the
issues are here, particularly in a front yard.
Almost all properties are going to have a
front yard, if they're going to propose
fencing it in with deer fencing.
We understand what the health risks are
and you know, what the garden -- what the
whole thing about protecting landscaping and
so on. We also understand that in
establishing deer fencing, you protect your
own property and displace the problem to other
properties. This Board just has to look at
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
the nature of the variance, as a height
variance, and the Code Committee is going to
be looking at this issue. It was once before
the Town Board a couple of years ago because I
spoke to the Supervisor about this and the
Board was, at that time, disinclined to do
anything about it. They didn't want to change
the Code, they didn't want to do anything
about it.
This is a few years later and we will not
-- I don't believe anyone on this Board feels
that we have the right to make law through a
decision. We are here to grant relief from
the law as it exists currently, which is a
6.5-foot height maximum. I know it's in side
yard, but I'm saying that is the maximum
height of a fence that the Code currently
permits in any yard.
So I'm just reiterating this for our
mutual benefit to simply identify the issues
that are before the Board.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the Board will
have to deliberate and you know decide
(inaudible) feels about it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, that's why I
was very happy to see that you reduced the
height to 7 feet, so you need to give us a
letter amending it, please if you would --
MRS. MOORE: Well, I'm going to give you
a replacement survey. Either way, it's
cheaper for my client if it's a letter, but I
didn't want to have you -- have incorrect, you
know, have a survey that --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: A replacement survey
is fine.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, but I do want to state
that the fact that the Town Board doesn't want
to deal with it, unfortunately, throws it onto
your lap and we end up with a variance because
of -- on a case by case basis, that we end up
having to establish how we're, you know,
screening it and I think Jenny points out we
actually are screening
that's higher than the
12-foot privet hedge.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
it here with a privet
fence. It's about a
The point in
question, I think, is after Leslie's statement
is wouldn't you think it would make sense to
recess the hearing until we see what the Code
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Committee comes up with in reference to this?
MRS. MOORE: It's -- I don't know.
Timeframe wise, it's fine with me, but my
client has -- the fence is there, so --
MS. GOULD: If we're just -- whenever you
have a fence where you've granted a variance
and I think probably a tennis court fences,
you've always required screening, and the
Sokols are willing to do that and our issue is
really the screening plus moving it back to
the property line. So --
MRS. MOORE: Then we all agree.
MS. GOULD: We all agree on that. That
makes good sense.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, I think
the issues are clear.
Do you have a question?
MEMBER HORNING: One clarification for
Pat Moore on the deer fence and the Pleasant
Inlet. Going back to the very beginning of
the hearing today, the Board of Trustees is
not allowing any fence at all in that area; is
that correct?
MRS. MOORE: I wasn't part of that
application. I think they denied the fence
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after, it doesn't mean you can't go back and -
- as they usually do, they want to see if we
get variances for the deer fence before
they'll address -- well we need a permit for I
think anything within 100 feet. So the fence
that's there, to allow it to remain probably
needs a wetland permit along the sides, but as
far as, you know, blocking off the property,
if they were to allow any fencing I think
they'd want to, in the wintertime pushing it
as far, you know, far away from the wetlands
closer to the house so the deer can be stopped
from -- if they do come onto the land they
don't really -- they can't go very far. I
don't --
(MRS. MOORE SPEAKING TO SOMEONE IN THE
AUDIENCE.)
MRS. MOORE: Oh, all right, but that
would only be seasonal, it wouldn't be a
permanent fence. It would be in the -- cause
my clients are going to be there all summer
long --
MEMBER HORNING:
MRS. MOORE: --
off your waterfront.
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Right.
you're not going to block
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MEMBER HORNING: You know, I'm more or
less -- I'm not adverse to the fence at all,
but conceptually and I saw Mrs. -- this lady
here showed me, in fact, the deer were coming
up from the inlet.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: So without a fence there
it's like you're building a stockade to keep
the deer inside the property and then --
MRS. MOORE: Then they're going to eat
everything inside and leave.
MEMBER HORNING: -- in the summertime if
you don't have the fence there then the health
issue is null and void because in the
summertime the deer are going to be wondering
all over the place.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. So there should be
some temporary -- I mean again, it would be
the fence to block the property would be
temporary. It wouldn't be the permanent fence
that's there.
MEMBER HORNING: You're making the
argument of the health issue null and void
because you're saying that when the applicant
is there there is no fence.
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MRS. MOORE: That mesh, it's a mesh with
spikes. So what you can do is almost like a
gate. You run it across your property with
posts and you block off the entrance, but then
when people are there when there's human
activity everything is open.
MEMBER HORNING: Then the deer are out at
night and they're wandering all over the yard.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know how to solve
this problem.
MEMBER HORNING: It makes the health
issue null and void because what you're saying
is that when the applicants are there there
won't be any fence there on the inlet period
and the deer will be able to roam all over the
property.
(MRS. MOORE SPEAKING TO SOMEONE IN THE
AUDIENCE.)
MRS. MOORE: You have to speak on the
record.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's true. If they
don't leave the fence there, it's moot.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: They're gonna eat
everything.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Would you state your
name for the record, please?
MRS. PIZZICARA: My name is Anne
Pizzicara.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hi, just spell it,
please.
MRS. PIZZICARA: P-I-Z-Z-I-C-A-R-A.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MRS. PIZZICARA: This -- the first
thinking was that we would put up a temporary
fence and we went to the Trustees and
discussed it and no decision was made. That
was really dropped, at that point, with the
Trustees. I would argue that we should have
approval to have some kind of modified version
of that original application, if it's
agreeable to have the permanent fence all
around the property. I mean I can't speak for
my son-in-law, of course, but you're quite
right. Why not have the fence around? One --
if you go from the edge of the house over to
the fence, it's a very short distance and a
door could be there. I mean there are many
variations that you could have to have it
permanent and obscured way back from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
water. I mean that would mean 20 feet really
or more, but that would be a discussion with
the Trustees. It hasn't been developed to the
point where we would discuss it with you
because it was left as an open question back
then, but if you're approving all of them that
would be wonderful to get that, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, let's just
reiterate for a moment that what we're really
looking -- what this Board has jurisdiction to
examine is height variance that is 100 percent
beyond what the Code permits. The Code
permits a 4-foot fence in a front yard and we
are now looking at a proposal for an 8-foot
high fence in two front yards and that's --
that's it in a nutshell.
Beyond that, it's appropriate to simply
inform the applicant that while every
application is site specific, you know, and
unique in many ways, this also has
implications for future decisions because
certainly there are many, many property owners
out there who would be equally anxious to
protect their investments with deer fences and
so, you know, this Board will have to really
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
think very carefully about all of those issues
when examining this specific case as well.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And there's also a
percentage of impact on the side yard, okay,
because this being a side yard you can't
encroach into the side yard with a fence 8-
feet high, it has to be 4-feet in the distance
of what the setback would be on the front and
the side yard you're asking from 6.5 feet to 8
feet. So it's, you know, it an extremely
large variance and that's the issue at hand.
That's why I say I'm not a gambling person.
At the very most I gamble about $20.00 in a
slot machine when I go to a casino and then
walk away, but I would hold off and see what
the Code Committee has to say prior to asking
us to make a decision.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm going to suggest
that in the inlet area there putting a
permanent fence is going to -- if we did the
variances for everything, but that, then
that's going to require another variance
perhaps if it wasn't addressed in some way.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're absolutely
correct, George, cause there's no definition
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
of a temporary fence.
MEMBER HORNING: And to me it's
mindboggling to suggest that there's a health
issue if there's no -- if the applicant is
there and he's allowing the deer on his
property when he is there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: George, you know, I read
that in the thing and I thought that that was
very good argument just because those kind of
-- health is everybody's concern and certainly
the deer that are looking at the 8-foot fence
on the outside are doing the same business
they're doing on the inside of that fence,
only to somebody else. So I fail to see
anything in this application makes it unique
to this piece of property.
MRS. PIZZACARA: Except that this is a
hot spot, if you want to you know think of
geography we there because the deer -- it's at
the end of a peninsula and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Where does the hot spot
move when you don't put the deer there?
MRS. MOORE: Keep in mind that the -- now
the deer fencing is being permitted in the
agricultural community. So what's happening
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
is that the farms are getting -- are being
permitted to put up 8-foot fences and now the
problem --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, excuse me.
MRS. MOORE: -- is --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I agree with you.
MRS. MOORE: -- (inaudible) to the
residents.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On structures that
have always been permitted, this is not new.
MRS. MOORE: Well, they have --
MEMBER DINIZIO: They can do whatever
they want.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA_N: They haven't been
doing them because the crisis was not --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that great and
what is obviously happening as a consequence
of the need to protect their business, their
product, you know their financial profit, they
are putting this up and, of course, we are
seeing our beautiful open vistas increasingly
turning into cages and this is why the Town
Board must come to some kind of decision on
deer management and the impact that deer
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
fencing has within that overall scheme of
things. So I think the issue --
MRS. MOORE: I don't know if there is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIN: I think the issues
before us are clear and you do have a choice.
I mean, at least I'm amenable to either
closing this hearing and making a decision
based upon the current law or amenable to
adjourning without a date to see what the Code
Committee does. Those are the two options I
think that we have.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, as long as it's not
considered a violation by the Building
Department, which we have an open pending
application before you, we'll just keep it
open and pending.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that's what --
(Inaudible) --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Honestly, I think we
should make a decision on this and let --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A~d go forward.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- the -- let whatever
the Town Board wants to do --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but that could be very
costly for my client. If you're inclined to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
deny it and then in three months if the Board
or in six months the Board approves it, it's
thousands of dollars to remove this, you know,
as it is the relocation is going to be pretty
pricey to begin with, but he's willing to do
that (inaudible) anything else.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And I'm talking three
months, okay, that's my suggestion.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I mean to me
that's a very reasonable timeframe.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Let me put this in
some perspective because we have throw out
some interesting things here. Okay, like
everything in life there's a domino effect.
I'm going to tell you where this domino effect
came from, it came from Riverhead. Okay,
those fences started in the areas where deer
were starting to chew trees and bushes in
certain areas off of Sound Avenue then all of
a sudden everybody here said who put up your
deer fence and they found out that deer fence
people were moving out and that's how the
domino effect ended up out here, and so is the
case going from agricultural to residential.
Those same deer people put up these fences,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
okay, be them legal or not legal, probably
illegal because they exceeded the height, and
that's how the whole situation occurred.
Okay, because those fences, I can tell you,
went up in Riverhead well before the fences in
Southold went up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, in
considering this, I believe we've heard all
the arguments and testimony we need to on
this. I think it's in the interest of this
Board and in the interest of both the
applicant and the client to rule on this. We
don't have any sense of timeframe and you're
absolutely right, right now you're in
violation. So I think it's probably more
appropriate that we simply go ahead and rule
on this.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, only if it's in favor
cause if it's again now we've got a --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That we can't
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: No, of course. My client
tried to do everything that he could.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We don't know when
this -- you know how slow government works
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
around here. We have no idea how long it's
going to take. Right now --
MRS. MOORE: Well, (inaudible) the three
months and see where they are in the process,
then we can decide whether or not if it's even
likely that they're going to take it up or
not. Then, at least we're getting closer.
Right now it sounds like -- that's actually
why the Trustees held off also because they
were told that there was going to be
discussions about deer fencing. So I do
remember that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I thought they were
holding off and they were going to see what
the Zoning Board did.
MRS. MOORE: Pardon me?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I don't think it
was about -- as far as I know, they're not
even aware of the fact that I just called and
requested that this be placed on -- before the
Town Board so that it could be referred to the
Code Committee. I did that last week.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But it puts the onus
on the Committee to at least discuss it, okay,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
and that's the issue and that's what we need
to do. That's why I proposed three months. I
propose from now until Memorial Day, okay,
we're at the later part of February, and then
we have the hearing in June if they don't make
a decision and finish it. I mean we basically
just --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'll go along with that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'll go along with
that, that's perfect, it's wintertime.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You want to adjourn
to a specific date then?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, the 25tn of June.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Of June.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: June.
MRS. MOORE: June, okay.
MEMBER HORNING: If that is the case,
then I would like
the case of --
MRS. MOORE:
be, yes.
to see the applicant address
Where the connection will
MEMBER HORNING:
MRS. MOORE:
agree with you.
Right.
I agree with you,
Yes.
yes. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, if we're
adjourning this to June --
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- then you can do
that at that time.
MRS. MOORE: Right. In June or before?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In June.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. Yes.
(TO0 MANY SPEAKING AT THE SAME TIME.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) option
on this, I mean how many times do we have to
hear about a fence?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I mean it's a
pretty complicated one, but --
MRS. MOORE: This is a good model for
what you're dealing with. Yeah.
MEMBER SCH!~EIDER: It's a good model, it
has everything. Two fronts --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Some Trustee issues.
MRS. MOORE: I think to legislate the
right way would be (inaudible).
If you don't see it then it's --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's not there.
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MRS. MOORE: It's not there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to
adjourn to a date --
(MRS. MOORE MOVED AWAY FROM THE MIKE.)
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Maybe your client
could put something there by the water.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's what I'm
(inaudible) is to try to figure out and maybe
get some guidance from the Trustees like is it
okay if we put it here?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There you go.
MRS. MOORE: Before I come back.
MEMBER HORNING: I wouldn't want to see
you come back for another variance.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you so much.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. We have
I'm going to propose that we adjourn this to
our June regular meeting at 1:00 p.m. and
Vicki is just going to confirm what the date
is. Oh, wait a minute, you don't have to call
over there I have it in my appointment book if
I can find my (inaudible) I can tell you.
(MRS. MOORE NOT AT MIKE, SPEAKING.)
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on, hold on.
I would not want to have to transcribe this,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 25, 2010
let me tell you. One person at a time.
MRS. MOORE: Are we off the record --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We are not -- we
are still in session.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, never mind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just a second I'm
looking at the date because I have to --
BOARD SECRETARY: Thank you. June 30th,
it's a Wednesday.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Wednesday, June 30tn.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Wednesday, June 30tn.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Our June regular
meeting is on a Wednesday because we couldn't
get the meeting hall on Thursday.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is Wednesday,
June 30tn, I'm going to suggest at 1:00 p.m.
all right?
All right, I make that as a motion. Is
there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
proceedings.
Signature ~Q~ ~~ Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
March 6, 2010
Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service
(631) 878-8355