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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
January 21, 2010
9:45 a.m.
FEB _ 5 20TO
Board Members Present:
LESLIE KAIqES WEISM3%N - CHAIRPERSON/Member
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
ABSENT: JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
VICKI TOTH - Secretary
LUCILLE CAPPABIANCA - Legal Stenographer
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Lauren Krug #6335
Laurence S. and Lilian Simpson #6340
Sheila Conneely #6356
Mark M. and Elizabeth Nardone #6342
Wilmington Trust Company #6343
Frank J. & Donna M. Scarola and
Donna Perrin #6350
Bryan and Mercy McElroy #6346
Gwyneth M. Ketterrer & Mary B.
Theodore C. Martz, Jr. #6344
Steve and Olga Tenedios #6323
Louis and Luba Corso #6316
Sykes #6349
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26-45
46-53
54-69
70-79
80-116
117-117
118-175
176-258
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA-N:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6335 - Lauren Krug
MEMBER HORNING:
~Request for a Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
August 11, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed addition to a single
family dwelling, at less than the code-
required minimum front yard setback of 35
feet, at 45 Oak Road (and Grathwohl Rd.), New
Suffolk; CTM 110-8-9.H
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there someone
here to represent that application?
Would you please state your name and
spell your last name?
MS. KRUG: Surely. Lauren Krug, K-R-U-G.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Can you hear her
all right on the -- we're tape recording the
proceedings as required by law for transcript,
so we need to have you speak into the mike.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. KRUG: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Lauren, pull that
over next to you and it'll be a little bit
easier.
MS. KRUG: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is George going to
read it?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Member
Horning will read the Notice of Disapproval
into the record before we take testimony.
MS. KRUG: Okay.
[Read as above.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, what would
you like to tell us about this application?
MS. KRUG: First of all I have my --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excellent. Thank
you very much.
MS. KRUG: Basically, it's a very simple
mudroom that we want to add on with some
cabinets inside the mudroom to store big pots
so I don't have to go up and down the stairs
(inaudible) in my old age. It's called
seniorizing the house. It's just a very
simple structure. We hope to use recycled
windows and cabinets too as part of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
structure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
by 9-foot by 14-foot high
MS. KRUG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MS. KRUG: Yes.
This says an 8-foot
-- addition.
George,
Okay. I had the
opportunity to visit the site yesterday
afternoon and it looks simple enough. Mrs.
Krug was there, explained the situation, and
have a good idea what she's trying to do. I
don't really have any further questions.
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So that is why you
see if anyone
would you like to
here has questions.
start, please.
MEMBER HORNING:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On a two-story
house on a 3-foot high crawlspace; is that
correct?
MS. KRUG: That's correct. Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The difficulty is
that you have a corner lot and you have 26.2-
foot front yard setback as a result when the
Code requires 35 feet.
MS. KRUG: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
are before us. I'm going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's pretty
straightforward. I have no questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No questions. I go
by your house every time I go down to my boat,
all summer, all fall, all spring.
MS. KRUG: Oh, nice.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I actually never knew
you lived there, Lauren.
MS. KRUG: Oh.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's one of my
favorite roads I have to tell you.
MS. KRUG: It is a nice road, absolutely.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And it's a pleasure
to see you.
MS. KRUG: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so is there
anyone else in the audience who would like to
be heard on this application?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
judgment to a later date, which will be our
special meeting at the earliest date would be
on February 18tn. It's a Thursday evening in
the Town Annex and you're more than welcome to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
join us there if you wish to hear what our
deliberations are about.
MS. KRUG: Very good.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/~: Or you can call the
office the next day and find out what the
decision was.
MS. KRUG: Terrific. Thank you so much.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6340 - Laurence S. and
Lillian Simpson
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for a Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for a
building permit and the Board Inspector's
August 11, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed addition and alterations
to a single family dwelling, at less than the
code-required minimum rear yard setback of 50
feet, at 125 Brigantine Drive, Southold; CTM
71-2-18."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Welcome.
Would you please state your name and --
MS. DWYER: Nancy Dwyer on behalf of Mr.
and Mrs. Simpson.
The homeowners are looking to construct a
screened-in porch in place of the existing
paver patio that they have in their backyard
at the moment. It will be limited to where
the patio is existing as of right now. I
don't know if you got a chance to see the
patio.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, it looks as
though the reason you're before us is because
the Code requires a 50-foot rear yard setback
and as proposed it's 39.8
MS. DWYER: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
feet.
Okay, 256-square-
foot, 21.4 feet by 12 foot addition. So it's
a 10-foot encroachment into the rear yard
setback.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just a technical
question about the survey. I see your site
plan here.
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is the site plan.
It says the information take from site plan
prepared by Garrett Strang.
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Do you have a survey?
MS. DWYER: I do not have a survey. I
only have what was provided to me that was
originally -- it was a site plan that was
originally drawn by Garrett Strang.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I guess he took
it off a survey?
MS. DWYER: Yes, that was my
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
understanding.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Can we get a copy of
that?
MS. DWYER: Sure.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Showing official stamp
or something from the surveyor.
MS. DWYER: I don't know that they have
one. I think that is why I worked off of the
site plan that was created by Garrett Strang.
So we might have to get one, but yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I think the
Board -- we need some type of authentication
of the setback.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: In the past, Nancy,
we have made it subject to that.
MS. DWYER: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not speaking for
the Board, I'm only making it -- that could be
a statement. If the Board is so inclined to
grant it, then we may make it subject to a
certified copy of the survey.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: All right?
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You wouldn't have any
problem getting that?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. DWYER: No, no.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What happens uniquely
we're at 39.8 here it could be actually 40
even on the surveyor's actual evaluation when
they go out and measure a property. So we
want to have the most perfect and again I'm
not speaking for the Board, I'm speaking for
myself.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. No, I mean
the purpose there is to make sure that if this
is granted, then there's no difficulty during
construction with the Building Department --
MS. DWYER: As to what the true
dimensions are.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The surveyors have
one thing, the determination said another and
so on.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And moreover, it's for
the application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Absolutely.
George, do you have any questions?
MEMBER HORNING: No, I don't.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I very nicely met
Mrs. Simpson when I was over there and it's a
beautiful house in a beautiful spot.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No question about it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else in the audience who would like to speak
addressing this application?
Hearing no further comment --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to make
one statement.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: I do hear a further
comment.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, I do apologize
for not mentioning this. Of course, the
reason why we know we're here is because the
house lies almost in the center of the
property, that's front to back, and that's the
whole purpose of it. Okay and I just want to
enter that for the record. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. I'll make a
motion to close this hearing subject to
receipt of a survey by a licensed surveyor.
How much time do you think you need to on
that?
MS. DWYER:
if they can get
have,
I will -- if they have one,
access to the one that they
then I will get that to you as soon as
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
can. If I have to request one, that's
(inaudible) timeframe. I would imagine two to
three weeks.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
just make it subject to.
Okay, well we'll
Our next
deliberation would be on February 18tn, so we
would --
MS. DWYER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- if it's at all
possible, so that we can --
MS. DWYER: I'll do my best to get it in
before that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- take care of
this quickly for you rather than delaying your
application.
MS. DWYER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It would be great
if you could get
least before.
MS. DWYER:
that in by a couple days at
Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If not, then we'll
-- just call and ask for an extension beyond
that deliberation time.
MS. DWYER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very
much. Motion to close subject to receipt.
Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6356 - Sheila Conneely
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Requests for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
November 24, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions and alterations
to a single family dwelling: (1) at less than
the code required minimum rear yard setback of
35 feet, (2) at less than minimum side yard
setback of 10 feet, (3) less than total
required total 25 feet, and (4) in excess of
code imitation of maximum 20% lot coverage, at
975 Town Harbor Lane, Southold; CTM 63-4-12.
Zone District R-40."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Welcome.
Would you please state your name and spell
your last name.
MS. CONNEELY: Sheila Conneely, C-O-N-N-
E-E-L-Y. You had it right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, thank you.
MS. CONNEELY: 895 Town Harbor Lane,
Southold, New York 11971.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. I see
you have some original green cards in your
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
hand. Would you please submit those to Vicki?
Thank you very much.
Okay, you are before us because of a rear
yard setback and a couple of other things.
You apparently had some fire and the structure
is (inaudible) and you're seeking to do
repairs that require a couple of variances,
lot coverage, total side yard setback, side
yard setback on one side 3.1 feet where the
Code requires 10, and rear yard setback to the
deck framing, and then the issue of the
accessory shed in terms of its location.
So what would you like to tell us?
MS. CONNEELY: A year ago this February
my house exploded from a gas explosion.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh boy.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry to hear
that.
MS. CONNEELY: And it happened a week
after my husband died.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you speak up
please? We're having trouble hearing you on
the mike. You can pull that up a little bit.
MS. CONNEELY: A year ago February my
house exploded from a gas explosion that
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
seeped in from the road and it was a week
after my husband died.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm sorry.
MS. CONNEELY: I'm sorry, and my two sons
were in the house and they got out.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Take your time.
I'm terribly sorry.
MS. CONNEELY: Sorry, I didn't think I
was going to get upset, but I guess --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's very
understandable. Would you like some water?
MS. CONNEELY: I'm fine.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Would you like --
MS. CONNEELY: No,
Do you need some time?
I'm okay, but I just
want to get my life back in order. I've been
renting and I just want to fix my -- I have a
nonconforming lot and I just want to fix the
house so I can get back in and I need building
permits to fix the house and it's not like I'm
adding on or going out of the footprint. I'm
just trying to have 7-foot ceilings in the
back. We had leaky ceilings. We had a
terrace that leaked and we're just trying to
cover the terrace and fix the house up so I
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
can get back in and -- I don't know what else
you need. I have some notes. If you have any
questions, cause I have --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is your contractor all
set to go, they're just waiting on the
permits?
MS. CONNEELY: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
I noticed there's a
container out there at your house. So things
look pretty ready to go construction wise.
MS. CONNEELY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. So you're not
waiting on any other permits, Health
Department or --
MS. CONNEELY: No,
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
say I'm very sorry to hear of this
loss for you --
MS. CONNEELY: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And we will do
everything in our power to expedite this for
you, I will anyway.
MS. CONNEELY: Okay,
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
already and I was going to mention this to
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just building.
Just -- okay. I must
terrible
thank you very much.
We actually did it
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Mrs. Conneely that there are basically three
criteria that I have used as past Chairperson
and this was -- this fit the criteria, that's
why we brought you from an outer date to an
inner date and that's why you're here today.
MS. CONNEELY: Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You honestly don't
have to thank me, I love to do it. Okay,
that's what we did. Okay, so that -- we
expedited in that situation.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Calendar wise.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Calendar wise.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Actually I do have
a question about the location of your shed.
From the site plan that we have, it looks as
though -- I'm not quite clear where your
property line is. There's a cyclone fence.
MS. CONNEELY: I believe that's where it
is.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's right next to
the cyclone fence.
MS. CONNEELY: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But according to
this survey, the property line looks like the
shed is half on the property line and half --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
it's very close to the cyclone fence.
cyclone
MS.
believe
fence yours or the neighbors?
CONNEELY: I really don't know. I
it's mine. There was a cement slab
that
there and that's why we put the shed there.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that was before
you bought the house?
MS. CONNEELY: That was there before I
moved in.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: I was curious when I saw
some scarred wood on the side of the building.
What was the extent of the fire?
MS. CONNEELY: Well, the whole
downstairs, the floors, the beautiful floors
that were over 100 years old they were honey
pine, the dining room, the living room, the
kitchen. The whole back of the kitchen blew
out from the explosion and upstairs was smoke
damage. A lot of smoke damage upstairs and
basically they had to gut it, but they were
able to save the frame.
MEMBER HORNING: I looked in the window.
I saw you had the floor joists there and all
the flooring was gone.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Please do try to
talk into the mike simply because by law we're
recording this to create a transcript.
MS. CONNEELY: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: It's hard to see what
fire damage there was because everything has
been taken apart inside.
MS. CONNEELY: Right. Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The site plan
reflects a cross-hatched area of the proposed
second floor addition. Did you want to
explain that to us in any way?
MS. CONNEELY: It's not an addition.
It's just we're trying to straighten out the
roof.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. CONNEELY: And because it was a leaky
roof and also there was a terrace outside that
had -- it was a flat terrace and it was
constantly leaking also.
to cover that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
So we're just trying
Okay, so in effect
what you said was exactly correct then.
footprint is the footprint. You're not
increasing the footprint by any type of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
additional dimensions past what exists right
now.
MS. CONNEELY: Exactly.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you. I
just wanted you to clear that up on the
record.
MS. CONNEELY: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I also would like
the record to reflect that upon site
inspection the shed is conforming,
is no really -- given the size of
the fact that it's on slab, if it
property there is no place you can move it
that would be a conforming location because
you have very, very small rear yard.
MS. CONNEELY: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I presume you want
to reconstruct the deck, the first -- the
ground level deck.
MS. CONNEELY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's framing
there now. Okay and that deck was there
previously, though I don't believe it had a
permit, but what we would like to do is make
sure that in our determination all of the
but there
the shed and
is on your
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
things the Building Department needs for you
to proceed with your permits and so on are in
place, that's the reason why I'm bringing it
up, so that we make
of those things.
MS. CONNEELY: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
sure that we address all
So the only thing I
to confirm that that shed is
need to know is
on your property.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just make a
statement?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: In the past, having
grown up out here on a 50-foot lot, there are
times when encroachments do exist both fence
encroachments and encroachments of sheds, and
I don't know if it really makes any
difference. We can indicate on the -- in the
decision that there could be a possible
encroachment. The encroachment exists, it
exists. No one has asked you to take it down.
We don't know if there's a prescriptive
easement. It's not up to us to really bring
that issue up, except that the shed exists.
So I mean sometimes these situations occur
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
and, fortunately, it's not the house.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I'm looking
to see if we have a survey. What we have is a
site plan, but it is stamped by a licensed
architect. So --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that could
suffice.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we'll just deal
with it accordingly.
MEMBER HORNING: The Building Department
suggests that it should be moved.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They did, however,
it is within our discretion to grant a
variance for its preexisting nonconforming
location, if we so choose, and that's why I
brought up the fact that given the
configuration of the sides of the existing
house and so on, moving it would not create a
better situation because we've all been there
and seen that there's this very small rear
yard and you wind up having it in the side
yard.
MS. CONNEELY: Right.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And then it would
not be conforming anyway. So it's probably a
whole lot easier to leave it where it is and
grant a variance for its current location.
MS. CONNEELY: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: If the Board
decides to do that.
MS. CONNEELY: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, any
other questions by the Board members?
Is there anyone in the audience who would
like to address this application?
Hearing no further comment, I make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
judgment for a later date, which would be
February 18tn in the Annex --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- where we would
be discussing your application and making a
decision.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6342 - Mark M. and
Elizabeth Nardone
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's September
2, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed additions and alterations to a single
family dwelling, (1) less than the code
required front yard setback of 35 feet, (2)
less than code required rear yard setback of
35 feet, (3) less than the code required
minimum side yard setback of 10 feet, and (4)
over the lot coverage limitation of 20%, at
1515 Minnehaha Blvd. and Opechee Ave.,
Southold; CTM 87-3-50."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very much
the green cards have been submitted. Please
come to the podium and state your name, and
spell it.
Why don't you just speak into the
microphone? There's a question about
affidavit of posting and mailing.
MR. O'CONNELL: Affidavit of posting and
mailing?
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BOARD SECRETARY: Yeah, you have two
different affidavits, okay. Affidavit of
posting, you have the other one.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY: And there were four
mailings, we only received two green cards.
Well, two and one return.
MR. O'CONNELL: That's everything that
was returned.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, so you
have to redo one to --
BOARD SECRETARY: We're missing two.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're missing two.
Can you identify which two? And this one to
Mr. James Proce, P-R-O-C-E, that was returned
to you.
MR. O'CONNELL: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So you have to
attempt to resend that. See if you can find a
better address.
BOARD SECRETARY: Where'd you get the
address from for Mr. Proce? Did you get it
from the Town Clerk?
MR. O'CONNELL: Sorry?
BOARD SECRETARY: Did you get it from the
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Town Clerk --
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
BOARD SECRETARY: -- from the Assessor's
Office?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
BOARD SECRETARY: Okay, when we go back
we'll look on the computer and see if there's
a better address on the system.
MR. O'CONNELL: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you contact
the others, please? Please state your name
and spell it for the record.
MR. O'CONNELL: Absolutely. My name is
Todd O'Connell, T-O-D-D, O'C-O-N-N-E-L-L, from
OCG Architects. Architects for Mark Nardone
who's with me here this morning.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you
very much, sir.
Let me ask --
MR. O'CONNELL: I do believe I have
copies of the postings that were previously
submitted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, would you
please submit those now?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can do that at
the end of the hearing, unless you have them
with you.
MR. O'CONNELL: At the end of the
hearing?
BOARD SECRETARY: I have them.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Oh, he's got -- Oh,
they've found them.
MR. O'CONNELL: Oh, you found -- okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, we're good.
MR. O'CONNELL: Thank you.
[Notice read as above.]
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, several
variances involved here, so rather than me go
over them, why don't you address the Board?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes, absolutely. Thank
you, Madam Chair, members of the Board.
This is an existing house which doesn't
conform to the current codes that are in
place. What Mr. Nardone and his wife,
Elizabeth, who's not with us today, what
they're looking to do is to expand the house
and attach it to an existing detached garage.
Now that detached garage happens to be
7.8 feet on the front of the garage, but at
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the property line goes back on an angle at the
back of the garage and is at 10.3 feet, but
now that garage becomes part of a house which
is why we need to go for a side yard variance.
The garage is in line with the house. We're
not changing the setback that's already in
place with the garage, but the fact that we're
attaching that garage to the house it becomes
part of the structure. Furthermore, this
existing house has only an 18.48 front yard
setback and what we're looking to do is just
put a little covering or a little porch in
front of the entrance door to create some
protection when he's at the door and also to
add some aesthetic character to the existing
house and enhance the surrounding neighborhood
around it by doing that.
So the area that we're encroaching into
the front yard, which requires the variance,
is for 17.35 feet, but that is to an open
structure. That is not to a closed structure.
It's strictly, you know, for a porch which is
going to enhance the character of the home as
well as give some protection at the front
door.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just hold you
right there?
MR. O'CONNELL: Absolutely.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: This is my
application. The Notice of Disapproval reads
with the porch addition, reads 17.55. You're
referring to it as 17.357
MR. O'CONNELL: I'm sorry, 17.55. The 5
looks like -- sorry.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The copy of the
survey produced by Joseph Ingegno, who is no
longer the owner of this firm, indicates that
setback of the garage and the side yard as
10.4 feet. Okay?
MR. O'CONNELL: That's correct, in the
back.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: In the back and the
Notice of Disapproval reflects it as 7.8 feet
in the front.
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: While we're still in
the front yard area, it's not indicated on
this survey or on anything that I have found
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
in the file of what the actual setback of the
fill-in is between the garage -- or the
proposed fill-in between the garage and the
home. Okay, just so you're aware of that
situation and I know that they're set back
just a little bit.
intrusion?
MR. O'CONNELL:
Notice that setback
Yes, that's correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Secondly, the
measuring on not the copy that I have in front
of me, I have to get out the other copy,
indicates the rear yard at 34.5 I believe.
MR. O'CONNELL: That's correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, I don't know if
that's taken off the proposed concrete patio,
nor do I know if that concrete patio is
raised, okay, off of grade, okay, which would
make it lot coverage anyway and unless it was
actually flat to the ground.
MR. O'CONNELL: Which it is.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So I need you to
address that issue and I'll go back to your
presentation. I just want to know where we
are on that.
MR. O'CONNELL: Absolutely. I do plan on
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
answering most of the questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. O'CONNELL: The patio itself, I'll
start with the last thing you mentioned, it is
the flat patio level to the ground that the
34.5 is taken to. Okay, so it is not raised
in any way, that particular patio.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. O'CONNELL: So the encroachment of
that patio is for six inches, but it is flush
to the ground.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. O'CONNELL: As far as the setback of
where the -- in between the garage and the
house, the front of the garage and the front
of the house are not exactly in line in the
front. So to make a nice transition and also
to add some aesthetic character, I've set that
connection in from both of those structures
and on the house side I'm setting it in 2
feet. The survey shows that I have a 20.6
setback from Opechee to the house on that
corner. So, to the addition or the connection
between those two areas, it would give us a
22.6-foot setback to that corner.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm. What is it
on the corner of the garage?
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct. Oh, the corner
that connects by the house, actually.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, where is the --
do you know how much the setback is at the
corner of the garage?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes, that would be -- the
survey shows 23.4 to the garage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. O'CONNELL: On that side it's 1 foot
that it's setback, so it would be 24.4 feet on
that side.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's to there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, dear it's to
there. We want to know the setback to the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~: Oh, it's a foot.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Okay.
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct. The difference
from 1 to 2 is because the house and the
garage are not exactly in line.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That is correct,
which is reflected in the --
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct. Now, I'd
further like to state that, you know, we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
going for a lot coverage variance here, but
most of what puts up over on this lot
is for the patio itself. The patio
the uncovered portion of the patio,
square feet I believe. I'm sorry, no. The
open patio is 628 square feet and that is
what's putting us into the situation of
needing a lot coverage variance, but that
particular property is level with the ground,
it does not come up,
in the lot coverage
today.
coverage
itself,
is 560
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I wonder why.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I can tell you why,
because no ground is ever flat and the
Building Department will include that and
that's it.
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
Town about that and we got
We spoke to the
their view on that
and that's exactly what they said. Well, if
you're up a couple of inches one side or the
other, we'd rather you had it covered in the
decision than having to come back to this
Board after the fact. The intent is to have
this whole patio as level the ground as
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
absolutely possible, but obviously a patio
wants to be flat and we don't want to contour
it to the ground. If you look at this
property --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
to the house.
MR. O'CONNELL:
If you look at
it is fairly level.
You wan to contour it
To the house, yes.
this particular property,
It does not have a
tremendous amount of topography on it. So I
do -- I'm fairly confident that we can get it
level with the ground.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, what you're
talking about is the lot coverage is 23.99
percent.
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So it
substantial increase beyond what
by code, which is 20 percent.
Just to clarify that on the front porch,
the open porch addition --
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the front yard
setback. What you're doing is proposing,
you're filling in that notch that exists on
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the elevation, the front elevation of the
house --
MR. O'CONNELL: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- along Opechee
and you are protruding beyond that by 2 feet;
correct?
MR. O'CONNELL: That is --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yeah, you got 19.8
and they're showing 17.55.
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes,
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
that is correct.
17.55, so I just
want to explain that that is fairly minimal
that is essential to just come beyond the
existing elevation enough to create a kind of
portico.
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes and to enhance the
neighborhood, correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, just
clarifying.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There's no roof on
that, right?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes, roof.
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes. That'll be like a
front portico on a home.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: It's open.
on three sides.
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes, open. Right,
correct. It is not enclosed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I go back one
second, Leslie, for a second, please?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. O'CONNELL: Absolutely.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: On this open patio.
The open patio is 628 square feet uncovered.
Okay, what are you determining the covered
area as?
MR.
jacuzzi,
It's open
12.
it in inclement weather.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that?
Okay and how big is
MR. O'CONNELL: That is 144 square feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it's 12 by
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. Now, it
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O'CONNELL: That would be on the
which is off the master bedroom.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. O'CONNELL: We're going to put a
covered area over the jacuzzi so they can use
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
appears that the property line moves away from
that area, so the dimensions of 34-1/2 were
shown in a half circle and that was shown by
the Building Department and I believe that
that's where they got that 34.5.
MR. O'CONNELL: That is correct. It's to
the patio, yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So it's probably
conforming then in that area of where the
jacuzzi is.
MR. O'CONNELL:
conforming at that
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
feet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
say that for the record.
That is correct. It is
location.
Yeah, it's 39.05
I just wanted him to
MR. O'CONNELL: I'd also like to state,
just in terms of the front yard, that the
property line is set in about 10 feet from the
street. So there is a bit more of a buffer
than, you know, what is indicated on the plot
plan as to the property line.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, the -- can I
just say something?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure, continue.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You don't normally
come before this Board, that is not a
sarcastic statement, okay, I -- since it is my
application, what that simply means is that I
have the profound statement
decision. Okay?
MR. O'CONNELL: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If,
to write the
in deliberation,
we want something changed shortened, it is
never elongated, I assure you, and I know I'm
speaking for the Board, we merely have to tell
you that or make a statement and ask the
rhetorical question, will you accept alternate
relief?
MR. O'CONNELL: Yes, I would.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's' all I want to
know.
MEMBER HORNING: I just want to follow
through on what Jerry was saying about the
rear yard setback. Is it true then 35 feet
the only protrusion into that is this --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That circle.
MEMBER HORNING: -- circle of the patio
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yup.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. O'CONNELL: (Inaudible), correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Right and that's about a
half a foot into the setback.
MR. O'CONNELL: And being it's
circle, it's minimal.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. O'CONNELL:
portion.
MEMBER HORNING:
maximum protrusion.
MR. O'CONNELL:
MEMBER HORNING:
on a
Right.
It's only a very small
Half a foot at it's
Right.
Understood.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes. So you're
attempting to make this patio, the proposed
patio at grade.
MR. O'CONNELL: That is correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But you can't achieve
that because there are contours of the
property back there,
can.
MR. O'CONNELL:
you're doing the best you
We will do the best we
can to keep it flush with the ground.
Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No other questions.
Just comment that the drawings are beautiful
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
and it's going to be a whole other house.
MR. O'CONNELL: Thank you. We tried.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
impressive.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
Very, very nice. Very
On that note, we have
requested several people today that there is a
great possibility that one of the conditions
may be that we see a new finished survey of
this entire plan. Okay, we know that Mr.
Corwin owns this farm now. He has what has
existed in the existing house as we see it
when we go and look at it, but we could
request a updated survey indicating everything
that the Board is going to request within this
decision sometime in the future. We may, I'm
using that phrase.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would be --
MR. O'CONNELL: I have no objection.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That would be only
if the one that you've stamped, which is
perfectly legal for us, if the Board
determines that some minor modifications to
that may be appropriate in the determination.
Otherwise, if there are no proposed changes in
our decision, this would be just fine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. O'CONNELL: Very good. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Your license is
more than adequate to submit this drawing.
MR. O'CONNELL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Any other
questions?
Is t here anyone in the audience that
would like to speak on this application?
MR. NARDONE: Hello. My name is Mark
Nardone. I'm the owner of the property and I
just wanted to thank you for your
consideration and your time that you've taken
already to evaluate this, you know. We love
it out here. We enjoy our town immensely and
we're very excited about coming here and I've
enjoyed the time we've spent here already
actually in listening to the Board deliberate.
I just want to thank you for that time and
consideration, that's all.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome. It's your tax dollars at work.
MR. NARDONE: Well worth it, I can tell
you. It's well worth it, it's been very
enjoyable.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Nardone.
Anything else, anyone else in the
audience?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion to close the hearing, reserving
judgment for a later date, which will be
February 18tn at the earliest.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. Pending
receipt of --
BOARD SECRETARY: Two missing green cards
and one redo.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: --two missing green
cards and one redo. Okay?
MR. O'CONNELL: Okay, can you please tell
me which green cards are missing?
We just located one in the file.
one?
BOARD SECRETARY:
MR. O'CONNELL:
BOARD SECRETARY:
Right, we had the one.
(Inaudible) I have.
Oh, you have another
MR. O'CONNELL: Just
the file.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq:
found one buried in
That's good.
BOARD SECRETARY: Oh, the one for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Association did not come back. The one we are
missing is Laughing Water Property Association
and the one for James Proce. We'll have to
get a verified -- a better address for you.
MR. O'CONNELL: will you be getting that
address or can you advise me how to get a
better address?
BOARD SECRETARY: You can give us a call
at the office tomorrow.
MR. O'CONNELL: Okay.
BOARD SECRETARY: We'll give you a new
address and I will verify the address you have
for the Association also.
MR. O'CONNELL: Very good. Thank you.
BOARD SECRETARY: You're welcome.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: Okay, Thank you
very much and have a very good day.
MR. O'CONNELL: You too. Thank you for
your time.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6343 - Wilmington Trust Company
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for variances from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's September
15, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed demolition and reconstruct a single
family dwelling: (1) less than the code
required minimum side yard setback of 20 feet
and, (2) less than the code required front
yard setback of 55 feet, at Off East End Rd.,
Fishers Island. CTM 2-1-8.2."
MR. HAMM: Steven Hamm, 38 Nugent Street,
Southampton for the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. HAMM: Okay, basically what this
boils down to is the owners want to take down
a non-economical very large structure and
replace it with a smaller one and it makes
both economic and environmental sense to do it
to use a portion of the existing foundation.
From the zoning plan view, the existing
structure is, as you can see from the survey,
extremely nonconforming with a side yard of
zero basically and a front yard of I
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
estimated, it's not on the survey, but about
39 feet, and using a portion of the new
foundation we're going to make it more
conforming or less nonconforming to 11 feet
for the side yard and 47.3, which is fairly
close for the 47.3, to the minimum front yard
setback.
In the memorandum, I'm giving you some
figures in terms of cost savings that the
owner would realize and then I would just also
point out in terms of alternatives this area
has been disturbed. It will be disturbed when
it's removed, so it makes sense to use the
disturbed area rather than to try to disturb
an area in the middle of the property that
might be considered and that would be
conceivably conforming. So that, in terms of
the alternative factor that you must consider,
I think that should be given less weight in
this circumstance in light of the facts at
present and the architect is here if you have
technical questions for him or for me that I
might be able to answer.
The existing structure, by the way it's
in my memorandum, has over 6,000 square feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
combined
separate
Board.
of living space. New -- and it's two stories.
The new structure will be one story 1337
square feet of living space and a basement,
each of them have a basement. In this case,
the new basement would be about 1285 square
feet. The old basement was over 3000, I
believe, it's in the memorandum.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. George, this
is yours, would you like to begin questions?
MEMBER HORNING: Sure. Mr. Hamm, the
zero side yard setback with the adjacent
parcel, were these always so far as you know,
always two separate parcels?
MR. HAMM: Well, they were for -- like
many of these FID Co. (sic) lots, they were
for tax purposes, but they are
lots recognized by the Planning
MEMBER HORNING: No question of merged
lots or anything like that here?
MR. HAMM: No, they are -- they satisfy
the requirement under the Code for Planning
Board approved lots. This is a filed map. If
you can -- I put the information on the first
page of the memo. It's lot -- map number 842,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
which was filed in 1991 and it's at least
40,000 square feet and building permit was
issued for the adjoining lot not too long ago.
So, no, I have no question.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm just stating for the
record, as Mr. Hamm agrees, both parcels that
you see here are owned by the same applicant.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So that answers my
question, are the neighbors -- how are the
neighbors --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The neighbors are
not objecting.
MR. HAMM: Even if the, I point out in
the memo, even if these lots came under
different ownership --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. HAMM: -- the structure on the other
lot is quite a distance from -- as you can see
from the photos that I've submitted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From the property
line. Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: That it is.
it. Actually, Mrs. Rego (sic)
several times, I've been there for other
business purposes as well and she was showing
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
me attached to that garage that little blank
space there is actually a perennial garden and
she was proudly telling me, because she's into
flowers, that's the only other additional
space they're keeping there, is that garden
that you see attached to what is now the
garage, correct? And you're going to renovate
the entire garage area.
MR. H~24M: Right. I want to just -- Mr.
Fitzgerald is down from Connecticut so he
might as well get a word in.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Would you please
state your name and spell it for the record?
MR. FITZGERALD: Sure. I'm Sam
Fitzgerald, F-I-T-Z-G-E-R-A-L-D.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Yes, the garage
will be renovated and that garden area, which
she loves, will be kept and there's a curved
brick wall that surrounds that garden, which
she loves, and that's part of the composition
of brick wall there, curving brick walls that
make up the parking court, which is really
quite beautiful which is really, you know,
(inaudible) keep anything of the old house
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: I think the property was
originally in that family's name by cousins
and whatnot, relatives, and then they sold it
to a New York City doctor, Dr. Mayer, and then
they repurchased it from him in subsequent
years.
MR. FITZGER3tLD: That's right. That's
right, I think that Mr. Rego's (sic)
grandfather built the house a long time ago.
The house was sold back then or sold
(inaudible), then they bought it back.
MR. HAM_M: We have a preexisting CO for
the house, if that matters.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I think it's
-- Well this is one of the advantages of
finally have a Fishers Island representative
back on our Board. He certainly knows how to
make site inspections on those properties.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Pretty good job over
here, too.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: He does a good job
here as well, but he can certainly represent
all of us over there. We're glad that those
things can be inspected at this point.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Any other questions, George?
MEMBER HORNING: Just are there any
handicap accessibility items that need to be
put on here that are extraordinary or
customary?
MR. FITZGERALD: Right. Well, as you
know Mr. Rego (sic) is in poor health and
that's a very important part of the design
that have a completely accessible sort of
cottage for him to live in and so we will be -
- so there will be no level changes on the
inside at all. Obviously, there'll be floors
but on the main living floor there will be no
level changes and at the front door there will
be a ramp that slopes up to the front porch.
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there anyone
else in the audience who would like to address
this application?
Okay, that was easy. Hearing no further
comments, I'll make a motion to close the
hearing. Do we need to receive anything?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: No, we have
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
everything.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have everything,
right. Okay, close the hearing reserving
judgment to a later date, which would be a
special meeting on February 18th, if you'd like
to call the office.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6350 - Frank J. and Donna
M. Scarola and Donna Perrin
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Applicants request a Special Exception
under Section 280-13B(14). The Applicants are
the owners requesting authorization to
establish an Accessory Bed and Breakfast,
accessory and incidental to their residential
occupancy in this single family dwelling, with
four (4) bedrooms for lodging and serving of
breakfast to the B&B casual, transient
roomers. Location of Property: 4850 Sound
Ave., Mattituck; CTM 121-3-6."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, good
afternoon. Almost afternoon. Would you
please state your name for the record?
MR. GORMAN: I'm Bill Gorman, G-O-R-M-A-
N. I'm here on behalf of Frank Scarola and
Donna Perrin who are standing with me over
here. They're joint owners of 4850 Sound
Avenue.
I know that some of you know that we have
brought up a number of possibilities for this
property publicly and privately, and we've
determined that a B&B would best fit the needs
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
of the owners now and so we are simply seeking
this Special Exception to operate --
ultimately it would be a (5) bedroom B&B and
on the plans that you may have reviewed
recently it shows the expansion area and still
even with the expansion area it exceeds -- the
owner area exceeds the B&B designated area.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, we need to
clear this up right now, Bill, and that is
when Donna showed us the house, we are looking
at (4) bedrooms or (3) bedrooms? It appears
that we are looking at (3) bedrooms.
MR. GORMAN: Well -- well right now --
right now, we're looking at (3) bedrooms, but
we would like to bump it up to (5).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: You're going to need
to come back with that, you know, an
additional enhanced Special Exception for
that.
MR. GORMAN: To increase it?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm not speaking for
the Board, it's my opinion.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, you would. We
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
56
can grant what is before us, but should you in
future decide to add additional bedrooms and
bathrooms, you would need to come back before
the Board.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: At the moment, the
area that you've described as the future B&B -
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: -- is a part of the
owner's space because it is currently being
used as a workshop/storage, whatever.
MR. GORMAN: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So that is more
appropriately included in owner's space. I
understand you want to -- you're not going to
be able to get permission for a ~'future B&B"
MR. GORMAN: Very well.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- on this go
around. So that is technically still a part
of the owner's space and should you wish to
expand it, you'd need to come back with
another application.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just to clarify
that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the reason why I
ask that question is I always start writing
the preamble to these decisions, since this is
my decision to write, and the legal notice
reads (4), okay, and so I changed it to (3)
cause there is (3). Three bedrooms as it
presently exists, as it was shown to us; is
that not --
MR. GORMAN: Well, there is a fourth,
it's a small one.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I did see that
fourth.
MR. GORMAN: And it has its own bathroom.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAiq: So we assumed that was going
to be pretty clear --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we can't hear.
Excuse me one moment.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Jim, could you
please turn off your hearing amplification
it's not working anyway and it's causing
feedback?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. FITZGERALD: Really?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, which I know
you can't hear, but if you could just turn
that buzzing gizmo off it would help us with
being able to record.
BOARD SECRETARY: It's doing it again.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's still doing
it.
MR. FITZGERALD:
background stuff.
BOARD SECRETARY:
What you hear is the
Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right,
we're good now.
MR. FITZGERALD: Sorry.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you very
much.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So we're going with
the (4) bedrooms then?
MR. GORMAN: There are (4) there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes. Okay, but you
want (4)?
MR GORMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm just going to
question you. It's my understanding the law
reads a maximum of five bedrooms.
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I think
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay. So the
question is when you come back again you're
only going to be entitled to five bedrooms.
MR. GORMAN: Correct and additional one
more.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Correct. An addition
of one more.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So I'm just
mentioning that to you.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: All right, so we're
I'm going to change the preamble back to
four.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: For the decision.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, because, as
you realize, we've seen the two different
layouts. You know, one had three bedrooms,
one had four bedrooms. We just want to make
sure what you've submitted as of January 19th
to the Board of Appeals with the recalculation
and dedicated owner's space, which you're now
suggesting should also incorporate the space
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
you're calling future B&B,
are looking at.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As
proposal; is that correct?
MR. GORMAN: Yeah,
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
but that
the final
is what we
that's correct.
I see three bedrooms.
Yeah, that's the
in front
room?
problem. You see if you take, Ken,
and pick the -- you see B&B living
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, what Bill is
saying, and that's the reason why I'm trying
to get this down pat, is to the right of that
where it says B&B closet --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
that is a small bedroom,
Okay?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
doesn't have --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
It has a bathroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
-- he is saying that
which we have seen.
But it can't be, it
It has a bathroom.
the closet be used as habitable space?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. GORMAN: Well, that should have said
bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM~/q: It shows it as a
closet. It doesn't describe it as a bedroom.
MR. GORMAN: I know.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That is a fourth
bedroom?
MR. GORMAN: Yes, that is the fourth
bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible) sure
about that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Counsel, what do you
think we should do on that? Have you got the
plan? Would you like the plan?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't have the
plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Living room,
bedroom with a bath, here's another bedroom
with a bath, and here's another bedroom with a
bath, and closet. They're proposal is a bath
here, this is really small. They're proposing
that that be a bedroom (inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I just want to clear
that (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: It's not too small.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm not sure you
can make that habitable.
MEMBER HOP~NING: What's it 13 by 8?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, okay,
that's something we're going to look that up
62
MR. GORMAN: We see that there's no
egress window in there.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAN: So that probably would not
be considered a bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I don't think
cause it doesn't have --
MR. GORMAN: And frankly the plan was to
make that the closet, make another access to
the bathroom, and then put the two additional
bedrooms in the future B&B. That's what the
plan was.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's what I
thought because that's what -- and it's
described as a closet anyway, even on this
plan. So --
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So I have no
problem there. So what we are -- but what we
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
are talking about then is three bedrooms as
applied for now --
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- correct?
MR. GORM3kN: Well, yes, since we're not
including that closet and if you're not
willing to extend one more bedroom to
(inaudible).
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Not for that size.
What you could do is put a door in in between
that wall and call it a suite.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, that's
entirely up to them. That's --
MR. GORMAN: Yes. It's still only --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is not by Code a
sleeping space.
MR. GORMAN:
could be a suite.
But with a door there it
Understood.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Suite, right. Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's up to you,
but I want to make sure that we are clear on
what's before us.
MR. GORMAN: I think that would be a (3)
three bedroom.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: So I can leave the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
preamble just the way it is.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah,
change a thing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
you don't have to
So we have three
bedrooms and the one that was indicated as a
closet is again a closet?
MR. GORMAN: It's again a closet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Jerry, do
you want to continue asking questions?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We're going to take
the square footages of what you have. We may
not clearly state them within the
determination of the Special Permit, but we're
going to deal with the receipt of this
particular drawing that you've given us
indicating the nature of this, okay?
MR. GORMAN: I could give you that if we
include a future into the existing owners, I
could give you that number now.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: All right, if that's -- that
would be 4829 square feet of owner designated
space.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 4849?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. GORMAN: 29.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
designated space.
same?
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
4829 of owner
The B&B space remains the
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Anything
else, Jerry?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I don't think so, at
this particular time. We would normally deal
with the aspect of the second story in
reference to a rope ladder or a chain ladder
coming down off of that deck area. So that
second story area is primarily designated for
the owner, we'd certainly want the owner to
come down off that second story space. So
that may or may not be embodied in the special
permit as we speak. Okay.
MR. GORMAN: The deck?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Coming down off the
deck as emergency access.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And I have not
discussed that with the Board in any way.
Okay, that may be an addition in the future.
As I said, it doesn't make any difference if
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
it's casual guests or if it's the owner,
that's what we're concerned about always, is
egress from the second story.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There is one other
issue that is required in a Special Exception
for a B&B and that is, as you may or may not
be aware of, the law requires one parking
space for each designated B&B bedroom and two
for the principal dwelling. So --
MR. GORMAN: You should have that survey
on that --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Could you bring it
forward?
Over here there are five. Do you have
this? Let's just double check what everyone -
- All right, so we have a survey. Let the
record reflect that we have a survey received
November 9th by the Board of Appeals from
Nathan Taft Corwin showing the location of
five spaces, one of which is handicap
accessible. Should you decide to change that
location, we will need another survey.
MR. GORMAN: If we change it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, if you change
the location from that courtyard area, okay,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
and then there will be some required signage.
Typical, you know, signage when you decide
what signage you want to put up, we're going
to need to know about that.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The reason I would
bring that issue up, and I'm not speaking for
Leslie or the Board, is that over the multiple
applications that have been before this Board
regarding this property, there was an issue at
one point, okay, that the courtyard area was
going to be used as a relaxation area for
whatever type of use that was going to be
there and there was a specific plan that was
going to be brought forth to the Board,
regardless of what application it was, for the
use of that in basically a type of planting
area and sitting area.
MR. GORMAiq: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: We noticed that, you
know, based upon this plan that you just gave
us, it encroaches into that and I really don't
know if you want to have cars encroaching into
it and actually facing this area as is
proposed, at this particular time, and that's,
I think, one of the reasons why Leslie said if
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
you intend to change it,
to know that.
MR. GORMAN: Well,
we would really like
if there would be any
changes to the parking, we would bring that
before you when we increase the number of
bedrooms, but at this point, --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's no plan.
MR. GORMAN: -- there's no plan to have
any communal area there.
for a three-bedroom --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
It would be parking
Writing the decision,
one of the conditions that will read that both
the owners and the patrons to this Bed and
Breakfast would be able to view and know that
this is where their designated parking areas
are, okay. So just be aware of that. All
right?
MR. GORMAN: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Does any other
Board member have any questions?
MEMBER HORNING: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have no further
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Is there anyone else in the audience who
would like to address this application?
Hearing no further questions, I'll make a
motion to close this hearing reserving
judgment for a later date, which would be
February 18tn in the Annex. You are welcome to
sit in, it's an open meeting, for our
deliberations or call the office next day to
find out what the decision was. Is there a
second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6346 - Bryant & Mercy McElroy
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
'~Request for Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for building
permit and the Building Inspector's September
29, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
existing addition to a singe family dwelling
at less than the minimum rear yard setback of
35 feet. Property located at 55 Inlet Lane
and Sandy Beach Road, Greenport: CTM 43-4-38."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you,
Jerry.
Can you hear from there? Just state your
name into the microphone.
MR. FITZGERALD: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'll talk loudly.
MR. FITZGERALD: Jim Fitzgerald for the
McElroys and I'd like to first announce that I
have a practically unused Radio Shack hearing
assistance device available if anyone would
like to have it. It doesn't work.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: There's a couple of
administrative things, Jim, that we need to
talk to you about.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: Now?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes. Please come
forward and we'll discuss that with you. We
need a signed statement from -- I understand
you spoke to the wife of the deceased
neighbor.
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mrs. Halligan.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We would need a
signed statement from her indicating that you
had -- she had spoken to you about this
preexisting nonconforming deck and that would
take the place of this green card.
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And there are two
other green cards that we are missing the
receipts on. So we will need those prior to
making the decision.
MR. FITZGERALD:
get them? They went
back.
How would you suggest I
out, they didn't come
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, well perhaps
we don't have the right addresses for them.
MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing came back.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. FITZGERALD: So I don't, you know,
when this kind of thing happens as with Mrs.
Halligan, I went to the Assessor's Office and
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
the record?
BOARD SECRETARY:
MR. FITZGERALD:
are,
Can you hear him on
(Inaudible).
Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3kN: Go ahead, carry on.
MR. FITZGERALD: And the assessor's who
for administrative purposes, the keeper
of the addresses say they did the best they
can.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I believe you can
probably find out
You can go online;
how to do that?
MR. FITZGERALD:
address?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
can assist you with that.
BOARD SECRETARY: To track
through the Post Office.
is that right? Do you know
To get somebody's
Yes. Our office
it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You can go online
at the Post Office they will help you track
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
what happened to those return receipts, okay?
MR. FITZGERALD: Uh-huh.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So at least we'll
know what went on with them.
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know, legally,
we have to have all that information. We also
requested an updated survey from you, I
believe, showing the preexisting nonconforming
deck. We have this one, what is this, what do
we have in the record?
MR. FITZGERALD: You have the -- that's
my (inaudible). I did that.
survey that you have. Right,
did from the survey.
That's the only
this site plan I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. This is
Ingegno, this is not stamped. So you got this
from an existing survey or how was this
produced? This is a survey that -- with the
name block Joseph Ingegno. It is not,
however, stamped with his seal.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So, therefore, it
is not legally acceptable until you get a
stamp from him.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. FITZGEP~ALD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Which is fine, you
just have to have a licensed surveyor stamp
the survey.
MR. FITZGEHALD: Yeah. Ingegno, as you
may know, is gone.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MR. FITZGERALD: And (Inaudible) they can
(inaudible) well he may have done it anyhow.
I'll find out and get you what you need.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excellent. Okay.
We can proceed and the deck needs to be shown,
the preexisting nonconforming deck needs to be
shown on this survey.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So they'll accept
that and we can continue to proceed and we'll
close the hearing subject to receipt of those
green cards and that statement and the final
survey showing that information. Is that
okay?
MR. FITZGEHALD: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Very good.
MR. FITZGERALD: Does that mean we stop
doing what we're doing now?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, we'll carry on
and take testimony, and we'll close the
hearing subject to receipt of that.
MR. FITZGERALD: So may I stay here?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I think so. But
can you hear him in the audience? Okay, he
needs to be able to hear us and vice versa.
Okay, just try and talk into that as much
as you can. Go ahead.
MR. FITZGERALD: As I have been doing
recently, I'd like to read these few notes and
nothing new or magic (inaudible) you ought to
heard now instead of remembering them from the
writings and so forth.
The house was constructed in first in
1968 and the (inaudible) document showing 40-
foot setbacks on two of the three (inaudible)
with the setback to the rear property line of
only 10.9 feet and that got a building permit
and CO in May of '68. I think it's obvious
from the size, location, and configuration of
the deck that in spite of the fact that they
went ahead without a building permit,
consideration was given to the setbacks of the
existing dwelling with an attempt to maintain
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
some sort of order for the deck. Ail of the
setbacks for the deck with the exception of
that to the west property line are greater
than those of the previously approved drawing.
The existing location of the deck is the
only one that could reasonably be proposed if
its construction is being planned at this
time. The geometry of the property bordered
by streets on three sides is such that there's
no location that the deck could be constructed
without a variance under the present Town
Code. The deck is a logical usual use of a
property. The size of desire is compatible
with many other structures both in the
immediate neighborhood and throughout the
town. It's been in place for many years and,
therefore, its continued existence will result
in no overall change in the affect, if any, on
the physical or environmental conditions of
the neighborhood. I'm not aware of any
adverse affect having been reported during the
time the deck has already existed and, lastly,
the house with its very small setback was okay
at the time it was built and, because of the
three-road nature of the property, was in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
right kind of spot. The deck was obviously
located in such a way that it was respectful
of the spirit of the setback needs. They did
the best they could.
The addition of the deck is certainly
appropriate and enhances the appeal and
usefulness of a property while maintaining the
very low lot coverage of only 9.9 percent with
about one-third of the property currently
being undeveloped.
Are there any questions from the Board?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There's no attempt to
enclose it in any way, right Jim?
MR. FITZGERALD: No.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: There are no
anticipated major changes to be made to this
deck as it exists today?
MR. FITZGERALD: Not that I'm aware of,
Jerry. I wouldn't think that it would, it's
very well constructed.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
exist appear to be live.
Yeah. The trees that
You can't tell in
the wintertime, but its relatively live living
trees that are built through the deck; so
they're going to remain just the way they are,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
right?
MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The trees that exist
presently that are built through the deck and
the deck is standing are live trees?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: As I said, you really
can't tell during the winter.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, they are.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay and there's no
attempt to take those down or change anything
in that respect?
MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not aware of the
owners having any thoughts of making any
changes that have anything to do with the deck
or around it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No more questions,
George?
MEMBER HORNING: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have no questions
either.
Is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak to this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Hearing no further comment, I make a
motion to close this hearing, reserving
judgment for a later date subject to receipt
of a statement from Mrs. Halligan --
MR. FITZGERALD: Hallidan, yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- two green cards
that need to either be found or tracked, at
the very least, by the Post Office, and a
survey showing the existing nonconforming deck
with all setbacks stamped by a licensed
surveyor.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6349 - Gwyneth M. Ketterer
and Mary B. Sykes
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
~Request for Variances under Code
Sections 280-123 and 280-15, based on the
Building Inspector's September 24, 2009,
Amended November 4, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning an application for a building
permit to alter the use of an accessory
structure with additions and alterations: (1)
a nonconforming building containing a
nonconforming use shall not be enlarged,
reconstructed or structurally altered or
moved, unless use of such building is changed
to a conforming use, (2) less than the code
required 50 foot front yard setback, (3) less
than the minimum side yard setback of 20 feet,
(4) more than the code required maximum height
of 22 feet. Location of Property: 1995 Ryder
Farm Lane, Orient. CTM: 15-3-1.1."
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. Would you
state your name for the record?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore, 51020
Main Road, Southoldo I have with me Nancy
Steelman, who's the design professional, and
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
if there are any questions regarding the
architectural design, I will defer to her to
the extent that I can't answer it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, may I
interrupt your just for a moment?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Vicki just told me
that we're missing one green card.
MRS. MOORE: We have handed -- we get our
mail later today, so we may get it in time.
We did send it out certified as required in
the Code. As soon as we get it, we'll give it
to you, even if it's after the hearing.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fine. Okay, just
know that we need that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Go ahead.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you.
The reason for this application was that
the property owner wanted to convert the
existing accessory structure, it was built as
a garage, with a studio above that has a
certificate of occupancy. The existing
building was built in '92 and the -- it has a
certificate of occupancy. The owners wanted
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
to convert the first floor space to a pool
house. The location of the building is
directly adjacent to the pool and the pool
house is a nice amenity. They have two
children and it is a nice thing to be able to
have the kids shower clean up in the pool
house, and store equipment and standard stuff
that a pool house provides as an amenity as
well as the fact that it's on the water and
again when the children come up from the beach
they can use the pool house as well to shower
and clean up.
So this was an amenity that they wanted
to provide for the property. The property is
a large piece of property. It is the
homestead for the original Ryder Farm and at
the time that they met with Nancy Steelman
they -- the building that's there for those
that have -- you've seen my pictures if you
haven't gotten out there, but certainly if
you've gotten out there. The property is
secluded.
big farm.
structures,
to make the building look like a barn.
It is adjacent to the Fitsimmons'
It's field next door, there's no
there's nothing, and they wanted
The
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
building is functional, but not very
attractive. As an impartial observer, it's
not an attractive building. They want to make
improvements to it.
We have plans that have been submitted
you and are in the file that shows the
existing conditions of the building. It also
shows the elevations of what the building will
look -- existing conditions as well as what
the building will look like and you can see
that it's an attractive modification to this
building.
When they were considering the space,
taking the first floor which is now full of
storage and converting it to the pool house
leaves them with no other garage and no
storage space. So they asked Nancy to design
the additional space on the second floor as
additional storage, which is shown on your
plans. We are not changing the studio space
with respect to size. The only modification
to that space is a recommendation by Nancy
that there's a tub in that -- again, it has a
CO for all these things -- removing of the tub
and replacing it with a showed that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
typically considered a lessening of a use
because going from a tub to a shower. There's
also the intention to remove the stair --
there are two staircases now, one on the
outside and one on the inside. There would be
removal of the outside staircase and just
having one access on the inside. The stairs
that are there now are very steep and not to
Code and the stairs would provide a safer
access point. So those are the modifications
of the studio space.
Again, not making any effort to expand
it, I know that there was a amended Notice of
Disapproval that was prompted, I guess, by the
Board to the Building Department and I sent
you a letter explaining why I hadn't addressed
it because it wasn't in my original Notice of
Disapproval and I wasn't aware that it had
been issued. So I responded to the Notice of
Disapproval that we are not asking that the
alteration of the studio space is not a use
variance, it is again we are maintaining the
existing space and, to the extent that it is
structurally altered, the structural
alterations are to remove a tub and to replace
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
a staircase that is not to Code. So to that
extent I could understand why that was -- that
provision was added in just to cover all the
bases so that the Building Department if they
considered it an alteration it would be
included in this plan.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a question?
MRS. MOORE: My clients purchased the
property in '01. Everything that is there is
CO'd and I believe the only thing that they
changed since they purchased was the pool was
added and we're here to try to answer your
questions. I think that my written
presentation explained everything I thought
thoroughly, but I'm happy to answer anything
else that you might -- any questions that you
might have.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What is the HVAC
situation?
MRS. MOORE: I'll defer to you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm going to ask
perhaps if the architect could --
MRS. MOORE: Sure. We're both battling a
cold here so she's like -- I'm in no better
condition than she is.
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86
MS.
MRS.
MS.
yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
heater, it is not central
And has a space
MS. STEELMAN: Space heater.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Are you proposing
to retain that or to centrally heat?
MS. STEELMAN: No. It is probably close
to 20 years old and we would be (inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What are you going
to use central heating --
MS. STEELMAN: Central heat --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- and air
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Okay, a couple of
questions, I know Jerry has some questions. I
just want to make sure, number one, you are
not proposing to increase any of the
nonconforming or change any of the
nonconforming setbacks that exist.
MS. STEELMAN: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, secondly, is
the -- are you proposing to heat this
structure?
STEELMAN: Yes.
MOORE: It is already heated.
STEELMAN: It's currently heated,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
conditioning?
MS. STEELMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What do you mean by
central, Nancy?
MS. STEELMAN: Well, I think we're going
to have a small forced-air furnace and it
would be ducted.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Oil or gas?
MS. STEELMAN: Probably oil.
MRS. MOORE: Oil.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right. The --
typically you have a pre-CO on the full bath.
MRS. MOORE: A CO.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: CO, so typically
pool house is obviously a permitted use, but a
full bath is not; however, this is preexisting
nonconforming so that isn't the problem at
all. I think probably the only consideration
here that I want to understand more about is
the storage that's being proposed on the
second floor, which will increase the
nonconformity of
square footage.
MRS. MOORE:
the structure by adding
Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is --
MRS. MOORE: The nonconforming setbacks,
not the use of the studio.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Not the use, no,
but this is -- this structure is already
clearly, because it's preexisting
nonconforming, well over the size permitted by
the current accessory structure law. So what
we're talking about is increasing the number
of square feet of this structure. These are
not just additions and renovations to exactly
what's there. We're talking about a second
story addition, which changes the roof line,
all right --
MRS. MOORE: Maintains the roof line,
actually.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it changes
what is there now making it a second story
roof with a continuous ridge.
MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so talk to us
a little bit about that storage situation.
How will that be treated? Is it finished, is
it open rafters, is it heated?
MS. STEELMAN: I would say that would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
heated and I think it would be finished. We
would insulate it, so it would be required to
put some form of a finish on that because of
the insulation.
MRS. MOORE:
prefer.
MS.
So it would be sheetrocked.
That's what they would
STEELMAi~: That's what they would
prefer and that would be what we plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I'll hold any
further questions. Jerry?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I didn't -- I was
there on a very, very poor day and I did not -
I was not able to actually discern anything
when I looked in the windows. It was gray and
ugly out and so on and so forth. I mean I
really need to go back without snow on the
ground, without anything else as it existed at
that time.
In your opinion, Nancy, is the building
built to year round standards now? Does it
contain any insulation or is it merely just
the use of a summer cottage type of -- not
cottage. Summer use type of situation, you
know, in the winter, in the fall rather, fall
season when you would need something to heat
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
something to utilize it for any particular
reason even for storage purposes for a
temporary time? Is that -- where is it, at
this point?
MS. STEELMAN: Well,
floor level, I don't know if you got
or not --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MS. STEELMAN: --
I'd say the lower
in there
No.
is very exposed.
The
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section that we're planning for that new
addition on the second floor, that section has
very low plate heights and it's got a 7-foot
plate height there. It (inaudible) ceiling,
that's exposed. It's unfinished, it's
unheated. All the interior walls in the other
section, I don't think there's any insulation
in any of those walls. They probably have the
heat in for they didn't have to drain the
plumbing every year for that bathroom
upstairs, but the upper floor is sheetrocked
currently now. There might be insulation in
those walls, but I don't know.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, and the
intended use, not to make you restate things
that either yourself or Pat may have talked
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
about in general, is to really make it
somewhat of a year round structure with the
heating situation?
MS. STEELMAN: I think with my clients,
who are weekend people who come out all year
round on the weekends during the winter, they
have two young kids, I think they're seeing
this as potentially year round.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. STEELMAN: So they don't have to
winterize the system, drain out the plumbing
every year.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And so that's the
purpose of the rec room upstairs also?
MS. STEELMAN: It's --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's called a
studio.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
I meant --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Downstairs it's
described as a pool house and a recreation
room.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: When we open all of
these up at one time we can't even use, I
apologize, that's correct.
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the definition has
over the years bounced back and forth.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So this building is
being proposed as year round use and not
seasonal.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It is proposed
without habitable space, even though it has a
full bathroom.
MS. STEELMAN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Clearly, you may
very well be aware of the Board's concern
about creating a situation that expands an
already nonconforming structure, albeit one
with a CO, and certainly one that has gone
from seasonal use without anything other than
a kind of second story space heater, to year
round finished what would appear easily to
become or be habitable space, sleeping space,
which is not permitted in an accessory
structure. It is not a second dwelling. So
convince us that that will not be the case.
MRS. MOORE: That is -- the Code doesn't
allow it and we've told -- I've certainly put
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
in writing that that is not a permitted use.
There is some consideration, the Town Board,
as you know, I'm not telling you something
that you don't know, which the Town Board is
considering allowing for family living space,
which I support -- I think you know, generally
-- that may be available down the line for
them, if they want it.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Exception.
By Special
MRS. MOORE: By Special Exception, yes.
So we would be back here if we want to take
that -- if that building would ever be
converted to be used that way, we would be
back here before the Board. It just -- it
would be nice to have the space and just, you
know, call it non-habitable as we want it now
and then down the line if it were to be
allowed to be habitable with the Board's
permission it would just be a blessing of the
use rather than emptying out all -- taking
down walls to convert it again.
So it would be nice to have that
flexibility, but we've explained, you know,
the Board's reluctance at this time with the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Code provisions. We can certainly adjourn
this hearing and wait and see what happens
with the legislation. I just don't know --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can do that, but
that legislation may take some time. The
hearing was closed, but --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- the Board did
not vote on it.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The Town Board did
not vote on it and it's going back to Code
Committee and so --
MRS. MOORE: It might be on in February,
March. I just don't know. I have no word,
knowledge of it. You probably have more
information than I.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3LN: Well, this suggests
to me that perhaps you do have that in mind
and if you have that in mind, then we should
adjourn without a date. If you don't have
that in mind, we will proceed on the basis of
the application before us as a pool house use.
MRS. MOORE: Well, only to the extent
that if you limit our heating that would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the concern. We have no problem with making
the space non-habitable because they're
prepared for that and we told them it's
possible you might impose covenants to
guarantee that. I already forewarned them of
that. To the extent that the law changes and
allows the use, it's again as I said it would
be a use change not a structural change at
that point.
So my concern is that if you imposed, you
know, something different as alternative
relief that we don't have a client here,
they're out of the country, so we would want
to have at least an opportunity to discuss it
with them and if, in fact, that causes the
hearing to be postponed long enough that the
law comes out then we know what it is. I just
don't know (inaudible) mystery right now as to
the future use. Right now, we can only deal
with what is today and today is not to be a
habitable space. It is to be used just as
we've described it and, in any case, the
building needs to be renovated. It's very
poor condition.
MS. STEELMAN: Yeah, they have done
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
probably about five years ago a major
renovation to the house and they have multiple
rooms in there. I -- you know, I don't think
that they are planning to change this into
another guest house, at this point. I think
they've got these two kids and they want to
have some space for them (inaudible)
recreation area and they need some storage on
the upper floor.
MRS. MOORE: The pool house would not
change at all. The pool house is where we
want to --
MS. STEELMAN: They decided not to build
a garage cause they don't need storage for
cars, but they do need -- they do need
additional storage.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What kind of studio
is this used for?
MRS. MOORE: It had been built for a
photographer.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I see.
MRS. MOORE: But they use it for crafts,
so it's just a great space that the kids can
mess up without a lot of clean up.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Why couldn't the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
kids use that as a recreation space upstairs
and put some storage space downstairs and make
the pool house smaller?
MRS. MOORE: I think they also have, you
know, guests and things that come out during
the summer and they want to entertain in the
pool house. They have a small wetbar as part
of that. We're in the process now of going in
to the Health Department now for a new
sanitary system. So I think it's also for
their own personal use also as a recreational
facility for parties and things during the
summer.
MRS. MOORE: You know better than I, you
have a very -- she has a very lovely pool
house at her house and it's --
MS. STEELMAN:
MRS. MOORE:
MS. STEELMAN:
We do. It's in a barn.
-- an old barn.
We do, we entertain and I
think that's really what their intent is also.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Why don't we wait a
little while and see what happens with the
future legislation and it's certainly not a
piece of property that you'll have difficulty
notifying the neighbors of a new hearing. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
mean there are about three neighbors involved
here, the farm on one side --
MRS. MOORE: Once again, they are the
owners of the piece next door.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I mean, in
general, I mean it's so easy just to send
neighbor notices out.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm, but as I said, I
don't know how long they're going to be
waiting --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, you can tell us
you want to put it back on.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And that's it. I'm
not talking for the Board, I'm just making a
statement.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, it's a
possibility, but let's see if there are other
questions the Board members may have.
any?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Sure.
Ken, do you have
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes. What's the
existing square footage of the accessory
building?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: The total square footage?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, you know, the
existing and what is the proposed.
MRS. MOORE: Existing, you don't have
measurements? Back to the survey.
MS. STEELMAN: Actually, I don't think we
have the dimensions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, you're adding
20 feet --
MS. STEELMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- by 12 --
MS. STEELMAN: 12 -- by 12-1/2, correct.
MRS. MOORE: So that is the --
MS. STEELMAN: So that gives you general
area.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you have your
calculator? 20 by 12 by 6.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Let them -- if you
don't mind.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No.
MRS. MOORE: Here we go. The total
square footage perimeter of the first floor is
706.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 706.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's existing.
MRS. MOORE: That's the existing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's with the
staircase, the outdoor staircase which is
going to be removed?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I don't -- that
doesn't include the staircase. We don't
usually count that as square footage as an
access point.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And what is the
proposed?
MRS. MOORE: The proposed is --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We also need the
existing second floor to figure out the total.
MS. STEELMAN: (Inaudible) on that. We
adding approximately 250 square feet and
that's 12-1/2 by 20, and the
So the existing second floor
that's just +/-,
main floor 706.
MRS. MOORE:
I have the plans from the
original. Do you want the original plans?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just want to know
the existing accessory square footage and then
what your proposed is.
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MS. STEELMAN: Okay. Yeah, I'd say, you
know, I'm going to give you some very round
numbers. I don't have my calculator, so
approximately 450 square feet on the upper
floor existing and approximately 250 square
feet addition.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So about 1156
existing plus 250.
MS. STEELMAN: Yeah, approximately.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You can submit
something.
MS. STEELMAN: You can formalize that.
Would you like us to have that? Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure, it think it's
pertinent.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: True.
Any other questions, Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
MEMBER HORNING: The first floor, being
you're going to be left with, again, a very
large recreation room?
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
MS. STEELMAN: Large open space and --
MEMBER HORNING: And what are the
dimensions of that, again? The rec room
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
itself without the mechanical storage and
such?
MS. STEELMJLN: That's the same as this.
MS. MOORE: Yes.
MS. STEELMAN: 24 by 20.
MEMBER HORNING: 24 by 20.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's the size of
the rec room.
MRS. MOORE: That's the open area -- the
open area on the first floor.
MEMBER HORNING: And it would be heated,
proposed to be heated by a heater in that
mechanical storage area?
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Central heating
system with ducts.
MEMBER HORNING: Ail
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAi~:
conditioning.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
everything.
MEMBER HORNING:
air or --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
right.
Which includes air
Which includes
Which would be forced
Yeah.
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MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: A modern system, if
you put a compressor somewhere just outside
the mechanical storage area.
MS. STEELMAN: There's actually a fairly
substantial generator on the south side.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, I noticed
that.
MS. STEELMAN: So it would be right in
that area adjacent to that generator.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. Maybe you could
submit -- I'm looking at sheet 2 at the first
and second floor proposed showing the existing
studio stairs.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Maybe you can submit
some dimensions on those --
MRS. MOORE: Of the stairs that are being
removed or --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. Of the --
MRS. MOORE: Of the overall.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Of the rec room, just
similar to what you have there --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- on the second floor
plan showing the new storage area so we can --
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MS. STEELM3~N: Some overall dimensions
there. No problem.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: To show us what's
going on.
MS. STEELMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no further
questions.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Anyone out in the
audience -- cause there's no one there unless
there's some ghost out there wants to speak to
this application?
Okay. Let's decide what we want to do
here. We could close this hearing and rule on
what's before us or we could adjourn this
without a date to see what happens in the next
couple of months in case you wish to make any
changes in this application relative to the
accessory structure code. It is a -- we
already can see that despite it's
architectural elements, which I have to say is
a huge improvement to what is there now,
nevertheless it's a very large increase in the
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degree of nonconformity and we are faced, the
Board is faced with applications like this
where we have preexisting nonconforming
structures that are quite large already
relative to the current code. So we are
carefully considering how to deal with
proposals -- no problem with alteration to
what's there, but when we start adding
additions and additions become not even
seasonal additions, but proposed year round
uses, we're on sort of a gray area and you
know particularly with this pending
legislation, which may or may not have an
impact on x-number --
What is the zoning, it's not R-807
MRS. MOORE: R-40.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: It's R-40. At the
moment, there is no proposed legislation that
permits accessory structures to be used as
habitable, you know, as an accessory apartment
in the zone. That may change.
MRS. MOORE: That may -- that was one of
the comments I had.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But it is not what
is being proposed, at the moment, though
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
you're letter was read into the record, Pat,
at the hearing the other night.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So do you have
anything to say on this Assistant Town
Attorney?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Not at al.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Did the Board have an
opinion?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I might --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAiq: Did you have an
opinion?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I mean we would like,
what we could do is act on this and put a
covenant non-habitable and, if the law is
permitted down the line, then all we have to
do at that point is remove the covenant, you
know, and allow the use. If you're
comfortable with this -- the storage space I
think is the question. The rest of it is all
-- it's a pool house on the first floor which
is a permitted use, and the second floor is an
existing CO'd structure and the alterations
are not, as I pointed out, not an expansion of
that in that we're removing the tub and
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
removing an additional stairs. So we're
actually decreasing in use of that space. So
really the crux of it is whether or not that
new storage space is acceptable and considered
an expansion, expansion you could live with.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the bottom
line is this is a huge property and if the
applicant requires additional storage space,
they have more than enough room on that
property to propose an additional accessory
structure for storage purposes, whether it's a
garage or a shed or anything else. So that is
part of the consideration in expanding this
preexisting nonconforming space. Not the
renovation or the uses, which are permitted,
okay.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm. It just changes the
architectural look of the building.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Yes, it does.
MRS. MOORE: That's the -- cause we
talked about that as an alternative. If we
lived without the storage, what's the building
going to look like?
MS. STEELMAN: And it does -- it's also,
I think one of the other things I'd like to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
point out and how a lot of this started was
the existing play hut, as I described before,
you can see on the existing in that lower
section I had (inaudible) structure. The
plate height there are 7 feet. We would have
to raise that anyway. You know and that
initiated going to the Zoning Board because we
were increasing the nonconformity by lifting
it a foot --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. STEELMAN: -- to an 8 foot that is
continuous through the first floor level so
the 8-foot ceiling height ran through.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: That's on the
ground level, you're talking about. The
ground level.
MS. STEELMAN: The first floor, so I
think that is a part that we would be here
anyway and I said well, we can gain additional
storage by creating a stronger architectural
design as an old barn which was in keeping
with the old farmhouse and to gain some
additional storage by raising up anyway and
going up into that (inaudible) addition, it
made sense.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
So I think in terms of the strategy of
our clients (inaudible). We can go for that
variance, gain additional storage up there,
and make something a lot more aesthetically
appealing. So that was the rationale and
justification of this.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I propose that we
hold it, and this is just my suggestion, and
I'll make a motion holding it for a very short
period of time until we hear from you that you
want to continue wihh the application and
that, of course, is recessing it without a
date. That's my motion.
MS. STEELMAN: I think that would be fine
to discuss with our clients as a next step, if
we can leave it open.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can leave it
open. You can discuss it with them and you
can call us if you wish to have it placed back
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you.
MS. STEELMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
in some other situation.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
-- as applied for or
Well, in any case to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
make alterations to this, even if the law
comes into being you need variances because of
setback, regardless.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah. Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Because it's an existing
nonconforming setback.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: The application
won't change, that's all.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So is that what you
prefer to do? We have a motion to adjourn
without a date. I will second it.
MEMBER HORNING: I have a final
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
questions before we vote.
MEMBER HORNING: Pat,
Ail right,
question.
more
that accessory building was built.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, it was built in '92.
MEMBER HORNING: And it was not built as
a barn, it was not there prior as a barn?
MRS. MOORE: No, it's a garage with
studio space, that's the CO.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MRS. MOORE: I had made a copy of it, of
the Building Department's record with respect
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
to the space above.
MS. STEELMAN: And I think we also want
to note that there was a --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Hold on.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: One at a time,
please.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The file reflects
that the structure itself was preexisting
nonconformity for size and then the alteration
for the studio and the bathroom upstairs was
given a CO in '92 for the alteration.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I -- just for the
record, because I had an old survey that
showed up from -- the date of that survey?
there had been an original garage there. It
shows up in the Building Department records in
'86 and the '92 I couldn't tell if they picked
it up and moved it and altered it, or it was
all new construction.
MS. STEELMAN: I think they tore down the
original garage that was in that corner
because there's no indication of that
currently structurally within the building.
MEMBER HORNING: Can you give us details
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
on that?
MRS. MOORE: Ail I can give you is the
survey that shows the original original that
may have been demolished. We just can't tell
from the Building Department records. I only
have the building permit which calls it an
alteration and it showed it -- it showed a
movement of the structure. So I don't know
ultimately how it was -- it got a CO. So the
structure that's there is a CO'd structure.
Beyond that I can't make --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, the notes
indicate that there was a CO dated 1987.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that would be
consistent --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: with a note to the
Building Inspector that the applicant did not
grant an inspection, final inspection --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- to the Building
Inspector. Then we have a CO on the garage
dated January 29, 1993.
MRS. MOORE: That -- okay and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That is presumably
when the bathroom and the studio were added.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I can make a copy,
maybe or somebody can make a copy for me on
this survey from the 80s which is the one --
the garage probably it was that 80s garage
that was built.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And then I have the plans,
the construction drawings, that were in the
Town records, are from the 1992, approved in
'92. (Inaudible) '93.
MEMBER HORNING: So, Pat, to sum that up,
you're suggesting that at least it was built
as a garage sometime in the 80s or prior to
the 80s, maybe even. '92 or so it was
reconstructed.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, and expanded.
MEMBER HORNING: And the garage was
eliminated.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. There's still a
garage on the first floor. It's just showing
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It shows the
garage.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, how do you get a
car in there?
MS. STEELMAN: Well, that's -- we're not
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
sure when those
MRS. MOORE:
double door.
MEMBER HORNING:
anymore.
doors were added.
The plans actually do show a
It's not a garage
that
Right. No, there's no
MRS. MOORE: It had the double doors --
was the original plan, that's how it was
built.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Well, you know the
old lawnmowers that they used were pretty big
and they were real mowers most of them. Some
of them had certain gangs hanging off of them.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, in the
interest of time, let's wrap this up, please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is there any other
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car --
MEMBER HORNING:
way.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA/q: But those doors --
the garage doors do not exist.
MRS. MOORE: No, it shows --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: On the existing
accessory structure there is no way to get a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
We certainly are going
comments from anyone?
to --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'm gonna let mine
go.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM3~N: All right, we have
a motion to adjourn without a date.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, and
you're going to get back with us. This is
subject to receipt of -- we're still going to
receive from you the proposed square footage
of existing and proposed.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to
receive information -- are you getting this
down?
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We're going to
receive information about the CO to the best
of your ability just on the history of this.
MRS. MOORE: You have it in your packet.
I gave you copies.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, we do have
it, but wasn't someone requesting additional
information on that? George?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: On what?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: COs.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know that I can give
you more than what's on the record.
MEMBER HORNING: About when the garage
was built.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so then
let's leave it so --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- that you --
MRS. MOORE: You have it. Did you say
you now know you have it?
MEMBER HOR/qING: No. We don't have when
the garage was built. We knowledge when it
was altered in 1992.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Right, but I guess
they've done their diligence in doing whatever
they can.
All right, the point is you're going to
submit some square footages as we've discussed
and we're going to adjourn without a date. We
have a motion made by Jerry. I'll second
that.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6344 - Theodore C. Martz, Jr.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We have received a
request from the applicant to adjourn Theodore
C. Martz, Jr., # 6344 to another hearing date
in order to retain counsel and subject to
completing posting and mailing requirements of
Chapter 58. The adjourn -- first available
adjourn date is going to be April 22nd at what
time, Vicki?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 1:307
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do we have the
times down, yet?
BOARD SECRETARY: No.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let's put it down
in the afternoon, let's say 1:30. Jerry,
you'll make a note, please.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I'll offer it as a
resolution.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6323 - Steve and Olga Tenedios
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This is assigned to
George Homing, but we don't need to read the
Notice of Disapproval because this is a
carryover. So we will proceed to hear what
you have to say.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just state your
name for the record.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore on
behalf of Mr. and Mrs. --
MR. STANEVICH: I had requested a meeting
with the Board. This meeting is to complete
my rebuttal. The last meeting --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. Please,
sir, would you just go to the mike? Your
indulgence, Pat, please.
State your name for the record, please.
MR. STANKEVICH: George C. Stankevich of
George C. Stankevich and Associates,
representing the neighbors opposing this
application.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MR. STANKEVICH: Last
Okay.
time we were here
on the 29th of October we had this lengthy
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
(inaudible) windbag going on for an hour. I
got 15 minutes to respond and we ran out of
time --
CHAIRMAIq WEISMAN: Oh. Excuse me.
MR. STANKEVICH: -- and I'd like to
complete my response.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Stankevich, we
will be more than happy to allow you whatever
time you are required to make whatever
statements you would like to; however, I would
ask you to please be respectful of the -- all
those present and refrain from making personal
comments about anyone. The same that I would
ask them to refrain from making any personal
comments about you or anybody else.
MR. STA~NKEVICH: My point is this Board
is not run by this attorney.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Of course not and
MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible) you to
inform (inaudible) allow us to complete our
rebuttal before we go into another round.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, let me
suggest this. The applicant, at the Board's
request, has reduced the number of variances.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
I'm sure you have that information, do you
not, or do you not?
MR. STANKEVICH: I have.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You have the
updated and corrected?
MR. STANKEVICH: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All I would like
entered into the record before, so I will ask
Ms. Moore to be very succinct just a few
minutes, I just want the record to reflect the
changes that Mr. Tenedios has made in his
application, as per the request of the Board,
very briefly and then I would like to proceed
with whatever you want to say about it. That
way at least you can make your comments to the
updated information. Okay, because your
comments may have changed based on what they
are now applying for which is different then
what you were testifying to.
MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible) stop the
subterfuge to divert the attention of the
Board to the essence of what's going on here.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, I will be
glad to take your testimony in full. I would
just like to give them an opportunity to enter
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
what changes have been made very briefly so
that we're not taking up a great deal of time.
We've already heard a good deal of testimony.
We don't need to have any repeated that's
already in the public hearing transcripts. I
ask Ms. Moore to be very brief and then I
welcome your comments.
MR. STANKEVICH:
the word testimony.
testimony?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
descriptions, discussions,
I object to the use of
What do you mean by
Testimony is all
comments made by
anyone appearing before the Board in an open
public hearing.
MR. STANKEVICH: Lawyers do not testify
here unless they're under oath.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm not an attorney
MR. STANKEVICH: They're advocates.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: That's fine. I am
not an attorney and if you feel that the word
testimony is not appropriate, then I will
describe it as comments by the public and by
counsel before this Board.
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MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible) testify if
they're under oath.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I can swear you in,
I can swear her in, or anybody else. That is
not what we're doing here. This is not an
Article 78, this is simply a public hearing.
Okay. So Ms. Moore please proceed briefly and
then we will hear Mr. Stankevich.
MRS. MOORE: All right, on December 1st I
sent a letter to the Board which Mr.
Stankevich received a full -- a letter as well
as all the exhibits. So he has been aware of
this plan since December 15tn.
The Notice of Disapproval was amended on
December 5tn based on Mark Schwarz' drawings of
December 1, 2009. So we are now reviewing the
drawings that are dated December 1, 2009.
those drawings reflect the change to the
square footage of the garage and pool house
which was reduced by elimination of the
pergolas to both the garage and the pool
house. The overall lot coverage was
consequently modified. We were well within
the lot coverage requirements; however, those
numbers changed with the pergola redesign and
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the overall lot coverage of structures is 10.7
of buildable area. The garage is 28 by 40,
which constitutes 2 percent of the buildable
area or 0.014 percent of total lot size.
I would want to put on the record my
reading of the accessory buildings code which
I believe allows an accessory structure that
exceeds 750 square feet for a property that
the total lot size of the property is to be
used. I can do that now before Mr. Stankevich
speaks or I can do it after Mr. Stankevich
speaks, but it was going to be part of my
presentation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's
wait until -- just run through the --
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I'm just
letting you know that. Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We'll let him
speak.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. The pool house is 27
by 27 and it is 729 square feet and it too
reflects 0.4 percent of buildable area. So we
are well within the lot coverage requirements.
The pool house interior was redesigned and the
redesign eliminates the variance for the
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dormers. So that variance is no longer on the
Notice of Disapproval and does not require the
Board's action; however, the pool house does
remain in the side yard, which is a
requirement for accessory structures that they
be, for waterfront property, they're permitted
in the front yard or in the rear yard, which
the rear yard in this instance would be on the
waterfront side, Long Island Sound side, but
there are regulatory restrictions on placement
of structures on the waterfront side and the
side yard is the, what we believe, is the
appropriate location for accessory structures.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I interrupt you
for one second, please?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're saying the -
I understand the pool is in the side yard;
however, it's now on one level with no dormer.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No variance request
MRS. MOORE: No, it's
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
size?
What about the
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Yeah, the size is conforming
MRS. MOORE:
to -- it's under 750 square feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Under 750?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's 729 square feet.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: 660, I believe. Is
it 750 because the property is larger?
MRS. MOORE: 750 cause the property is
larger, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And the pool house is
what? 7-what?
MRS. MOORE: 729.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Carry on.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, I'm just confirming
that 280-15C if the lots are up to 20,000
square feet they're 660, but over 20,000 up to
60,000 square feet it's 750 and if we applied
just the buildable area, then we are within
that parameter. If we use the entire property
size, then we applied the remaining provision
of 280-15C which allows the structure,
accessory structure, to be 3 percent of the
total size of the property.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we can't do
that, so --
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MRS. MOORE: Well, I'm just reading the
code provision.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, so again the Notice of
Disapproval was revised. There remains the
pool and pool house in the side yard. We did
the -- so those structures remain in the side
yard. The garage is also placed in the side
yard and the setback from the right-of-way is
-- requires a variance. However, I would
point out that if the garage were moved a few
feet forward it would be out of the side yard;
however, Mr. Stankevich is objecting to the
placement of the garage where it is now. So
moving it a few feet closer, I'm sure he
wouldn't be happy with it and so, therefore,
we are -- it also requires variance for
placement in a side yard because it is
slightly encroaching in the side yard due to
the location of the house and the garage.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, I need just to
point out --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It was my
understanding, based on the amended Notice of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Disapproval this proposed accessory garage is
no longer partially in the side yard. It
still requires a front yard setback variance
and a size exceeding 750 square feet, but the
new notice does not indicate --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, it doesn't? Okay, then
we must have been able to -- were we able to
move it, Mark? Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah, it is no
longer partially
variance.
MRS. MOORE:
able to shift it
-- you've eliminated that
Okay, then I guess we were
just slightly forward in
order to eliminate the variance for the
structure in a side yard.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: It's so close my eyes
couldn't --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Let me just go
through this very briefly and then we would
like Mr. Stankevich to have an opportunity to
speak.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What we're looking
at with the amended Notice of Disapproval is
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
an accessory garage at less than 55 feet from
the front yard property line right-of-way.
You're proposing it at 25
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It
limitation of 750 square feet.
feet, I believe.
exceeds the code
You're
proposing as previously, 1,760 square foot on
the accessory garage, correct?
MRS. MOORE: We confirmed the size of the
garage, yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'm sorry, that was
the original --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that was the original.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You've reduced it
to 1,120 square feet.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Ail right.
And finally the
pool remains in the side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But it's now
amended to show one -- I'm sorry, the pool,
not the swimming pool the pool building.
MRS. MOORE: Pool house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, the pool
house is in a side yard. It's now amended to
show one level only no dormers, no size issues
anymore. Okay.
MRS. MOORE:
dormer is still
The dormer, the physical
there, it's just not
considered a dormer for purposes of second
floor limitation.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, so it's
really just the pool building is in the side
yard.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And the swimming
pool is in the side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So we're clear on
what the amended notice is and what the
proposed variances before this Board are.
Okay.
I'd like to -- confirmed by the architect
who's shaking his head as is the applicant.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: This will not be
picked up by the tape. Okay, I'd like you to
hold off on any further discussion. Let Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Stankevich proceed with what he has to say.
MRS. MOORE: Ail right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Mr. Stankevich.
MR. STANKEVICH: Thank you.
I think the essence of why I'm here is
that this applicant has not proceeded with
clean hands. Every angle has been shaved and
pushed envelope and now we have some minor
corrections and this is the salve that's to
cure this monstrosity that's in the process of
being born at Truman's Beach.
For example I'd like to present to you
seven copies of a document that I found in
your file. It was submitted to your file on
July 8, 2009 and what this is or purports to
be are the covenants and restrictions on
Brionn Gloid, which gives us some background
guidance as to what's happening here. Now the
reason I've passed this out is that it gives
us a road map, a somewhat ancient road map
back in 1978, as to what the original
development was intended to be and as a result
of said and the extensive comments of my
colleague and witnessing what has been going
on here, I have analyzed where we stand today
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
before you with regard to these covenants.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just for the sake
of recording this, let the recording reflect
the fact that Mr. Stankevich has left the
podium to distribute copies of the C&R of the
subdivision to those in attendance in the
audience.
MR. STANKEVICH: I'm giving you --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And copies to the
Board.
MR. STANKEVICH: I'm giving you now, as
I've just given Mr. Tenedios and his attorney,
an official notice of violations of these
covenants as to what we're seeing done in
front of you as background and why I say it's
a typical example of disingenuity, of sharp
playing, and my point is this, last time we
were here the applicant's attorney essentially
said for you to ignore the 25-foot right-of-
way because it's covered with construction
debris, nobody can use it. Of course, that's
a violation of the file map to block a common
easement and I request that the applicant
clean up his construction debris that's
blocking the 25-foot right-of-way because it
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
interferes with my rights and the Fire
Department's rights to use that right-of-way.
Certainly that cannot persist as a permanent
activity.
The applicant has taken it upon himself
to chain off this 25-foot right-of-way with a
locked chain driving 10 by 10 posts down at
Route 25 and the 25-foot right-of-way, again,
it blocks the neighbor's, myself, use of the
right-of-way, but also the Fire Department and
emergency vehicles. It's outrageous. Just to
do that and take it upon himself to chain off
a common right-of-way. Let him put the posts
and the chain up on his property, but why the
aggression and the pushiness?
Then, you look at the plans, you go look
at the house, he's building a four-story
house. He's got a garage underneath, a living
floor, a sleeping floor, and an attic big
enough to you know hold two or three houses
when in fact the covenants restrict any owner
in that six-lot subdivision to two floors, and
in addition to that they are attempting to put
this house in violation of not only the zoning
law setback but the covenants and restrictions
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
provide for a 65-foot setback of that house.
So, again, a bit of overreaching to say the
least and none of this should have taken place
without prior written approval under the
covenants.
I don't think there has been any prior
written approval and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: May I ask a
question?
MR. STANKEVICH: Yes?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From whom would
prior written approval be obtained?
MR. STANKEVICH: The Association or the
owners.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
MR. STANKEVICH: In addition, it appears
to me that over 50 percent of the trees have
been slashed down. If you look at the aerial
photos of this or you just go up there
yourself, there's a marked reduction in
foliage compared to the last owner, and what
am I to do about this? I would hope that you
would take this as some guidance as to how
this applicant operates and take it into
consideration when you are asked to give
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
further variances because of the pushing of
the envelope.
In addition, you have been presented with
a pile of assessor's notes and a summary with
regard to numerous variances granted in Orient
and East Marion. I suppose this was sent to
you to prove that there's a precedent for
what's going on here today. I say it's an
indictment of what's gone on in the past, but
maybe that's a bit harsh because if we look at
each one of those past variances, it's not
what we have here. What we have here is in
essence the applicant asking you to permit him
to build a Chinese wall, house in side yard,
put up more buildings to create a tremendous
blockage of not only the sky, but also of the
water and that's why, I believe, the zoning
ordinance has those prohibitions in waterfront
areas because in New York neighbors don't have
an easement as of right or by law to their
view, but the Town Board sought in past years
to structure the zoning so that there are
spaces between houses, side yards, through
which people can look at the sky and the
water. That's what is being taken away here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
ASST.
into that.
property owners. I
this was subdivided.
property.
MR.
'87.
When people ultimately build on my property,
they're going to be faced with the Acropolis.
It's going to be like a huge warehouse.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me. Let me
interrupt once again. I'd like to ask the
Town Attorney, it has been my understanding
and I could be quite wrong, which is why I'm
asking counsel to confirm whether or not it is
within the jurisdiction of the Zoning Board to
use the preservation of the views to water on
adjacent properties. I do not believe that
that is something that we have been permitted
by jurisdiction to do and to consider when
granting variances. Can you confirm or that
would -- we'd need to look into that?
TOWN ATTORNEY: I'd need to look
I believe -- these are all private
suspect that at one point
It was all one piece of
STANKEVICH: Charlie Rand did that in
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: There is a scenic
easement that could have been put in place
that would have preserved all of the property
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
owners across the street. I don't know of any
right that he would have as of right to the
views; however, I have to look into it. I'm
not --
So it would only be
CHAIRPERSON WEISMA_N:
by scenic easement --
MR. STANKEVICH: No, I disagree with your
analysis. It's a cleaver analysis, but what
you're doing is turning the question against
me.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, sir. What I'm
attempting to -- what -- you finish.
MR. STANKEVICH: What I'm saying is I
think some thought should be given as to why
the town fathers in the zoning provided the
side yards should be open in these
circumstances and I think the reason is
exactly what you said. I have no legal right
to my view anywhere, unless in the zoning it
says you have a limitation of height, and you
can't put a 1000 foot building is blocking the
view of the moon. So it's a bit convoluted,
but I think it's was a reason why the Town
Board put such in the zoning and I think
that's a legitimate thing to review, but see
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
what the minutes in the hearings say.
What we have here and what we're left
with is, in my view, from my property an
architectural monstrosity, size I guess is
beauty and beholding of the owner, but not to
the neighbor. We have a different view of
this and all of this is done in the name of a
hobby. I mean there is already a ample size
two car or more garage under this house and it
could have been made better and it still could
be made bigger and better. So because he has
a hobby he has a right or ethical demand to
inflict us with what he's doing? Maybe we
should thank God and jump up and down that his
hobby isn't flying. He'd be asking us for a
hangar variance. Maybe he'd want Olympic
Airways to be landing in Truman Beach.
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible) doing that
okay.
MR. STA/~KEVICH: Excuse me --
CHAIRM~2q WEISMAN: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible) at the last
meeting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hold on. I will
attempt to --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible)
tolerate it.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
attempt to ask him once
reflecting this --
UNIDENTIFIED: He
attorney a windbag.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
understand.
I'm not gonna
Hold on. I will
again the record is
started by calling my
I understand. I
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You need to address
not - -
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us,
This comment by myself
It's intended to allow the
MR. STANKEVICH:
is not accidental.
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible) meeting.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just a moment. I
understand your frustration and I ask for your
patience. I will attempt to direct him once
again to refrain as I asked him in the
beginning from personal comments. Please,
sir, what we're interested in hearing are
facts relative to variances.
MR. STANKEVICH: This --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Nothing personal
should be brought into the testimony.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. STANKEVICH: -- allow this individual
to act out his modus operandi.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- the applicant.
MR. STANKEVICH: This is how he's
operating this property, he can bulldoze and
bully it, and do what he wants, and when
people object he's going to hire a politically
connected windbag to protect him.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me. I asked
you once before to refrain from making those
kinds of comments. I would like the record to
reflect that this is the third time --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Fourth.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- I have asked
you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Fourth.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Fourth, I am
corrected. To refrain from making personally
derogatory comments. No one is doing that to
you, sir, nor would I allow them to. So
please address your comments to the facts that
you are concerned with regarding these
variances.
MR. STANKEVICH: So let's bring you back
to the issue I opened with, clean hands which
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
goes to the essence of how a person presents a
case to you and the veracity to which you
should give it. Last meeting I submitted to
you a copy of the original subdivision map of
Brionn Gloid and I started looking at it. I
was not involved with the original filing and
I got curious and I looked at the numbers that
(inaudible) around and I started comparing the
numbers to what has been written upon the
applications to the Building Department and to
you. One of the things that broached my
curiosity is that originally when (inaudible)
did this map he showed the elevations on this
lot to be 14.7 feet. If I look at the plans
submitted by the architect, he shows 10 feet
or less. Now, I have no seen any diminution
of the height of the dunes in this area, so
I'm wondering why we're juggling the numbers
on the maps. I'd like the architect who's
here to explain himself. How do these numbers
jump around from one map filling to his
drawings and to other surveys?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As soon as you are
finished with your comments, I will ask the
architect to address that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MR. STAIqKEVICH: And having seen what's
been going on here, I am more than curious
about what's been jumping around with the
numbers. I've retained an engineering firm
and they are, in fact, shooting the elevations
on this property so that they can study the
surveys and official documents that have been
submitted to the Building Department by
previous owners and compare them to the
current owners' to see why these numbers don't
match up and exactly what are the heights and
elevations of buildings that are going up
there and, of course, if I find that this has
been done in a way to bend the regulations or
subvert or subvent (sic) the regulations then
there will be further recourse to appropriate
authorities in that regard because I know you
have an awful lot of businesses, not you being
detectives, but
you are for the
of (inaudible).
to hear what's presented to
applicant to present this type
I have a further concern that is
partially remedied by the changes that are
made already. What prevents this from
becoming the Tenedios Colony with all these
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
outbuildings being used for sleeping staff and
friends, etc., etc., and that is a very
difficult question I guess not easily remedied
by you because you're not going to go out
there and inspect what goes on here 5 years or
10 years from now, but you're aware of the
situation. Maybe it's been good that there's
been some scaling back. I think that and I
request that you hone to the law and hone to
the ordinance and allow this applicant to
abide by the Southold Town Code because they
have plenty of room with which to comply and
enjoy.
Thank you.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I'd like to ask the
architect to come forward, please, and --
MRS. MOORE: Before -- with that in mind,
I have to comment and then we'll get to that.
There are some things I think have to be
placed on the record.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have questions of
Mr. Stankevich myself.
MRS. MOORE: Pardon me?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I have questions of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Mr. Stankevich.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do you want to do
that before --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Yes, very quickly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: If you don't mind?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: No, I don't.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Mr. Stankevich, it
absolutely amazes me in your presentation why
you haven't gone to the Building Department to
discuss the issues regarding the house which
is not before us. Okay, the house is not
before us. I have to tell you in all true
fairness I walked into this hearing after
lunch or before lunch, which took 10 minutes
today, and I informed Mr. Tenedios that I took
it upon myself to walk into his house over
last weekend and to look at it specifically.
I went through two floors of that house, okay,
and I walked very gingerly around the house
not touching anything including the walls and
I found no more than two stories and this is
testimony that really doesn't have to occur
here, but if you have specific questions
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
regarding the construction, the design, or
anything else regarding this house, the
Building Department is over there, excuse my
pointing, in Capital One Bank. I have no idea
in this world why you haven't gone there and
discussed it with them and that's all I can
say.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: All right, so that
is a comment rather than question. I think
what I'd like to do is allow counsel to
proceed with her testimony and then I'd like
to have any other individuals in the audience
comment as they see fit. So Pat if you --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you very much.
I received these comments today dated
January 21st with respect to covenants, issues
regarding covenants. I would respectfully say
that and Mr. Stankevich is well aware that the
law is that the Zoning Board does not enforce
private covenants. So regardless of what
these covenants say, it is not the Board's
duty to enforce those. That being said, we
are actually abiding by all the covenants.
The house is 80 feet, not that, again, Mr.
Goehringer points out very accurately that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
house has a building permit and we are not
before this Board with respect to the house,
but given that he's painted us with ~unclean
hands", as he put it, to state for the record
the house is 80.6 feet from the front property
line. That is the placement of the existing
house and, again, has nothing to do with --
we're not in violation of any covenants with
respect to that.
with respect to Mr. Stankevich's pointing
out that the Board should somehow by
legislative intent enforce some form of scenic
easement, there is no recorded scenic easement
with respect to these properties. In fact,
the Town Code specifically allows for
waterfront properties garages in the front
yard. If that's not clear that the zoning --
that the Town Board does not enforce any kind
of view easements, if the fact that you can
put structures in a front yard that we are in
fact -- we have -- if we did not have this
right-of-way that is mapped, we would have a
setback of 51 feet from the property line;
however, because of this right-of-way that
extends to the easterly property line, we are
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obligated under the zoning code to be setback
from the edge of the right-of-way. That is
the reason that we are here.
I'll let Mark speak with respect to
elevations. I don't believe that is relevant
here, but I will certainly -- we will answer
whatever questions the Board has with respect
to that. I did pull out the subdivision map.
I am very familiar with this subdivision
Brionn Gloid by the Sea because it did involve
Appellate Division case that I was involved in
with Ianu (sic) which has a large oversized
garage on that property and it was an issue of
whether we were permitted to subdivide. That
subdivision the record reflects and I'm going
to give the Board -- let me give it to you so
that you have it in front of you (inaudible).
If you recall from our prior hearing, the
issue of these right-of-ways and what the
purposes were was raised and I explained that
I had gone through the subdivision file and
took a look at the development of this
property to see if there had been any
directives with respect to the right-of-ways.
There -- the first survey that shows on the
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top, there are two pages. One, I gave you the
subdivision map that was being reviewed by the
Planning Board and then the second sheet is
the final filed map. So you have those to
compare to. As you can see, the original
Brionn Gloid subdivision is showing a separate
driveway access for lot 6 went straight up and
then it continued on as a driveway access to a
beach. To this which they said purpose need,
it was questioned why they had this beach
there, but ultimately it was left there. The
Planning Board took the position that there
should be just one common access for lot 6,
that's my client's property, and then Mr.
Stanke¥ich's properties which are lot 4 and
lot 5. Each lot being preexisting -- well,
now they're preexisting nonconforming.
They're 40,000 and we are in an AC or 80,000
square foot zoning district. So you can see
that there -- at one time there was going to
be lots of driveways, separate driveways.
That was eliminated, ultimately the final
plan had the common driveway access for the
three parcels and you can see that the access
to the beach was made a pedestrian access way
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
that runs all the way from the beach all the
way to the Main Road. So access, is a direct
access to the public road that is the access
point. The right-of-way extends out, but
again there is no commentary or comments about
the right-of-way and the only commentary that
the Planning Board had, at the time, was that
these right-of-ways were for vehicular access
to the Main Road. So it was taking lot 6
access to the Main Road and 4 and 5 have
access to the Main Road. Presumably, they
have access to the beach by the pedestrian
right-of-way that runs all the way from the
Main Road to the beach area. That was the
final version of the map.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me may I ask
a question?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, sure.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Is that covered
with brush or is that cleared?
MRS. MOORE: The pedestrian access?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: It is -- it has not been
cleared, to my knowledge, it's not accessible.
It's all covered with brush.
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CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED: There's no construction
debris.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I was going to get to
that, yes.
What Mr. STankevich I think misunderstood
my comments from before that the driveway as
we are proposing to access the garage is the
only reason that there would be any clearing
of that property for our driveway purposes.
There would not be permission by lot 4 and 5
to clear our property to get access to the
pedestrian right-of-way when there is a
pedestrian right-of-way that gives access
directly to the public road on the state road.
So we -- any clearing is going to be for our
purposes for our garage. We were --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Who would be
responsible, if anyone, for clearing and
maintaining the pedestrian right-of-way from
the Main Road to the beach? Is there any
Association issue or is that --
MRS. MOORE: That would be the lots --
there is no Association here, to my knowledge.
There are -- those that would have
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theoretically a right to use that beach would
be entitled to clear a path of the pedestrian
right-of-way. Since our property has direct
frontage on the beach, it would not be
necessary. My client would have no legal
obligation to clear that pathway. We
wouldn't, I don't believe, my opinion would be
we couldn't stop lot owner 4 and 5 from
clearing the pathway because that would be a
reasonable use of a pedestrian access way;
however, there are endless cases because it's
endless to the litigants to what extent is a
reasonable access for pedestrian use. I'm
sure that the future owners of 4 and 5 would
be good neighbors and be reasonable. There is
also the public beach next door. So if they
don't want to clear -- go through the expense
of it or even go through the effort of walking
that distance, they could take the public --
the adjacent state beach. So that gives some
background of the comments that were made last
time.
Again, the covenants. We are complying
with all the covenants. I don't see what Mr.
Stankevich is pointing out that we are in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
violation of, but again irrelevant to this
hearing. I do want to point out that the
placement of the garage and the placement of
other accessory structures are somewhat
hampered by the sanitary system, which the
Health Department approved here and is an
enlarged system that's in the center easterly
side of the property. The sanitary placement
has to maintain a proper 150-foot separation
between the future home sites to the south, so
that area was dictated by the Health
Department, had to remain an appropriate
distance and, at one point in time, we
considered moving the house forward, in fact,
we actually prepared an application. We were
going to come to the Board to move the house
closer to the right-of-way, but that would
have certainly lessened our front yard more.
There is -- because of the -- it didn't make
sense to make that application, so I actually
withdrew it after Mr. Tenedios had me prepare
everything and that would show in your old
files.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Pat, I have to ask
you indulgence, please, for just one second.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
We need to change
MRS. MOORE:
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
Continue please.
the tape.
Oh, yes.
[Tape change.]
Okay, we're ready?
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Thank you.
Let's see. I do have just to put on the
record with respect to the Code, I know that
the Building Department considers buildable
area with respect to the accessory buildings
and structures of 280-15, but I do want to
provide a copy of the language of the Code
because I understand how it's being
interpreted, but the language itself says, ~On
lots over 60,000 square feet no accessory
building shall exceed 3 percent of total size
of the parcel." When we're dealing with
buildable area, we deal with lot coverage and
the only place that we talk about buildable
area is in the definition that appears for lot
coverage because that was a definition that
was added later -- the buildable area was
added late in the game, it doesn't necessarily
appear throughout the Code. Just by reference
in a sense or interpretation has it been
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
applied that way, but the language of 280-15
specifically says that total size of the
parcel and we have a parcel that is over
77,000 square feet, which 3 percent of that
number would allow a garage that is larger
than the 750 square feet. I would ask that
the Board keep that under consideration. I
did present it to the Building Department and
the Building Department said, no, let's leave
it to you to interpret whether or not that
applies or it doesn't apply, but I do want to
have it reflected in the record just in case.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You know very well
we do have to look at buildable area by law.
MRS. MOORE: I know. Well, actually
that's what I'm saying maybe the law -- I know
how the Board believes it's -- just I ask the
Board to read the language that is actually
written in here. That often times we think it
means one thing, but when you read it
literally in the Code it says something a
little different. So that's -- when I was
preparing for today's hearing, I read it
carefully and I said, ~total size of the
parcel", well which size of the parcel are we
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
dealing with and that's when I went back and
analyzed whether or not, in fact, the
buildable area is a definition that can be
read into this versus the language that seems
to state to the contrary.
I believe -- I don't want to rehash
everything from the first hearing. I think
I've addressed Mr. Stankevich's comments. Did
you want Mark to discuss the elevations?
Again, we have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISM/LN: Or any of the other
things that he wishes to --
MRS. MOORE: Again, I would point out
that the elevation -- that this property had a
house on it prior to this house being
constructed. So to the extent that the --
when the subdivision was created there -- I
don't believe there was a house on this
property. At least on the map it shows it as
vacant. I believe that the lot 7 was the only
house that was existing at the time. So to
the extent that there has been any grade
changes or whatever as shown on a (Inaudible)
map versus a current map, those changes could
have occurred at any point in time prior to
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date.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
to the project.
The survey was done by John Ehlers and
what we did was took the information from John
Ehlers' survey and utilized it on our site
plan. So to my knowledge what's on our site
plan and what's on John's Ehlers survey is
correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: What is the date of
John Ehler's survey?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't have --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We might have it in
our packet.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sure I have it.
Yes.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: I have it in the
packet? So I have it in front of me?
MRS. MOORE: It was actually -- I think
it's attached to your packet as a previous
survey, but the -- the survey is dated July 9,
2008. It was the survey I believe, yes, it
was used when Mr. Tenedios purchased the
property because it is guaranteed to title
company and so on. John Ehlers, (inaudible)
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East Main Street, Riverhead prepared it and --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: July 9, 2008 is the
date?
MRS. MOORE: The date of the survey, yes.
July 9, 2008. If you find that you don't have
it in your file, I'll certainly provide it but
I'm pretty sure it was part of the packet.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What was the
elevation then?
MRS. MOORE: Which elevation?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The highest point was
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAIq:
the topos.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
this survey.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
highest.
MRS. MOORE: So 10
11.
We're looking at
there were topos on
10 is around the
-- around the old --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Elevation 11.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Around the original
house it was elevation 11. Then it tapers
down to 10 and it appears that -- yeah. And
for the record Mark incorporates the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
information from the surveyor into the site
plan as it's prepared so you are basing your
data on a certified document survey.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What was the issue
again, was it the --
MRS. MOORE: Just a question of
elevations not matching the original
(Inaudible) survey from whatever survey he was
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Would that be this
one?
MRS. MOORE: It could be -- oh. Okay,
the original subdivision map survey.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, upon further
review of this (Inaudible) survey, you were
looking at a 14.1. Was that what you were
suggesting was the elevation?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me, Ken. If
you are asking a question of Mr. Stankevich
could I please ask you to, please, go back to
the microphone to make it clear?
MR. STANKEVICH: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So you're suggesting
that's an elevation?
MR. STANKEVICH: That's what
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
be.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well --
MR. STA/qKEVICH: On the other side of the
road it goes down 5.7.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, if you review
the lot numbers from left to right, you'll see
they go in sequence and I believe that those
are tax map numbers.
MR. STANKEVICH: Okay, that could be an
explanation.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay, cause I was going
to say I did not see a 14 on this at all. So
yeah, 14.6 I think was the number that --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Your lot number is
MRS. MOORE: 14.10.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
your tax map number.
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
number.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Yes. That would be
that's the tax map
Correct.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: And
elevation.
MRS. MOORE: No, it's not
it is not an
an elevation.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you for pointing that
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out.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Do any Board
members have any questions of the attorney or
the architect?
MEMBER HORNING: I do.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: George, would you
this is George's assigned draft, so --
MEMBER HORNING: All right, going back to
the original layout and the site plan and the
placement of the septic. It's not drawn on
here, the actual location of the septic pipe
leaving the main house. There's just sort of
a distance given, 52 feet roughly to the tile
field, correct?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
line, but it also
line also.
MEMBER HORNING: That is
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
Yes, that's a dimension
should be as a proposed pipe
the plan.
CHAIRPERSON WEISM_AN: Excuse me, may I
ask you to please just for the tape to enter
your name into the record, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: He did.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You did it, I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
sorry. You've already done that so the
architect is speaking.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, that's the dimension
line in, its proposed pipe line.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, so the one that's
marked 36.5 from the pool house, that's a tie-
in pipe also to the septic; is that correct?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: And the one that's
marked 55.8 from the two-story proposed
garage, that is a septic also?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: And for what purpose do
you need septic in the garage?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Actually,
do.
MRS. MOORE:
matter of fact.
I don't think we
No, we don't have it as a
There's no -- our plans don't
show -- this was original sanitary approval
from the Health Department, but our ultimate
plans I don't think have any bathroom in the
garage nor any intention for the garage. It's
just a repeat of --
MEMBER HORNING: Or any intention of
making a pipe connection to it?
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MRS. MOORE: It's -- right here shows a
little dash line.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean I would think I --
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I probably had put
it in there. It may even be on the
application to the Department of Health.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't have that with me,
but there is --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. SCHWARTZ: --
There is no bathroom?
(Inaudible).
MR. STAiqKEVICH: Smoke is (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: No --
MR. SCHWARTZ: If we wanted to have a
sink, could we have a sink in the garage?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: Yes, you could as
of right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't even think it was
our original plan. We just -- maybe it was
just on our original plan this is where we go
back and forth for months and months so
(inaudible) the Department Health approved the
plan to see if we actually have a, you know,
(inaudible) to apply that into the existing --
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MEMBER HORNING: Ail
get us a copy of that.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's
going to need --
MEMBER HORNING:
health plan septic.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
approval.
right, if you can
fine. They're
A copy of the public
Health Department
MEMBER HORNING: And there's nothing
sited in your plan of the garage for a
placement of a half-bath or anything like that
so --
MRS. MOORE: There is none. Yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: Give us some ideas of
full intent then if you're going to have a
septic connection to the garage what you would
be doing with it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: Also, Pat, is there any
outstanding documents we need from the Board
of Trustees or any other --
MRS. MOORE: I had actually submitted the
-- because if you can see the Trustees have a
setback that we submitted the whole -- let me
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
back up. The house had the
and I believe the pool --
MR. SCHWARTZ:
the garage.
MRS. MOORE:
Trustees' approval
I believe the house and
The house and the garage had
the Trustees' approval that Mark had done
before I was involved and then we submitted
the request for the entire project as it's
shown here to the Trustees. We had the public
meeting. They approved it on the record that
they said they were going to hold off on
issuing the permit until we had the variances
issued so we don't have to go back and revise
it again. They'll -- they're waiting until we
have Zoning Board approval for placement of
the structure before they give us a written
permit. So I went as far as I could go and
then -- but they didn't -- I think Mr.
Stankevich asked them not to issue the permit
and they honored that request and I have no
problem.
MR.
MRS.
STANKEVICH: I didn't say a word.
MOORE: Okay. No problem.
MEMBER HORNING: How do we get a
transcript from the Board of Trustees?
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MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: We can request the
transcript from the Board of Trustees.
MRS. MOORE: My memory is that they did
it as an administrative permit when they list
the entire group of administrative permits and
they approve it as a whole --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: As part of the
entire resolution.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: But we can get a
copy of that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: In fact, can you
provide that for us? It should be just a
public record then.
MRS. MOORE: I can give you the record
that the hearing took place and -- well it was
administrative so there was no --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Just get a copy of
the agenda.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I would have that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: From the Trustees.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's fine.
MEMBER HORNING: I'd love to get a flavor
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of what that meeting --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Sure, I understand.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that meeting had --
there was no comment whatsoever. The Trustees
had no issue.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: It's administrative
so they just do it simply in a group.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- are granted an
administrative permit.
MRS. MOORE: I was there in case they had
any questions and Mr. Stankevich was there as
well -- well, you came late actually. They
had already completed their approval of the --
of all the permits. So we stuck around until
Mr. Stankevich left and there were no comments
and I heard later the following day that they
were going to hold off on issuing the actual
physical permit until the Zoning Board acted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, in the
interest of time, because we are running quite
behind now, I'd like to ask if George or any
of the other Board members have additional
questions.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Only if Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Stankevich attempts to raise any other issues
and that's not a sarcastic
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
any other questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
about the chain across
statement.
Ken, do you have
I just have a comment
the right-of-way. It's
just my own personal thing. I don't think you
should do that.
MRS. MOORE: It actually -- I've been
there many times at different times and the
chain is not there. I
posts, the contractor
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
was up.
MRS. MOORE: Oh,
there and it wasn't.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
mean there is two
I was there, the chain
all right. I've been
So I walked down and I
checked out the property, but safety concerns,
the Fire Department whatever that would, you
know, and plus it is a right-of-way.
Apparently, what you submitted here it's a
right-of-way for lot 4 and 5.
MRS. MOORE: True but they're unimproved,
they're vacant parcels, but, yes, all right
we'll keep it down.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: They still have a
right to access.
MRS. MOORE: They have always have a
right to go down that right-of-way to their
property, not to our property.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, correct.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's fine. I don't
think we have a -- I think the contractor's do
it just to protect the public from a
construction site.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, perhaps maybe if
you -- this is just a suggestion. You could
install it up on your property line and then
you could, you know, prevent the public from
gathering --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
Hanging out there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
fine.
that's easily done.
Yeah, right.
Ail right, that's
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you, Ken.
Any other comments from the Board?
Let's see if there are any other people
in the audience who would like to address this
application who've not yet been heard. Please
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come forward and please state your name for
the record.
MR. TENEDIOS: My name is Steve Tenedios.
I'm George Stankevich's neighbor and I'm the
guy that's building the Acropolis.
I can't imagine with Mr. Stankevich's
experience and degrees that a lot of people
have duped him or pulled the wool over his
eyes over the years. I think George
Stankevich knew very well what he was buying
when he bought the two parcels on Main Road in
front of my property and what he was buying
was bayfront property and I can only imagine
that the reason he is here fighting as hard as
he is is because he feels that some advantage
that he might have had is no longer his for
the taking. So all this malice and avarice
that he's projecting towards me and this
project I think it driven by greed, by the
desire for more, and I think he should stop.
I'm building a nice home. I'm building
it for the enjoyment of my family. I'm not a
developer, I'm not a flipper, and, yes, on
April 4th we'll be there with (Inaudible) and
we'll be dancing and you're welcome to join
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
us, George. You keep fighting me and I'll
keep fighting back. It's your choice.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Thank you. Is
there anyone else in the audience who would
like to speak to this application?
Okay, in the interest of time, please go
ahead and say whatever you'd like to, but I'd
like to try and limit comments to no more than
5 minutes so that we can get on with the next
hearing.
MR. ST~LNKEVICH: All I have to say in
conclusion is if they're all nice people,
they're all friends, so ignore the law and go
along with what I say. I mean you just heard
somebody tell you that the chain is never up
and one of your me~ers say, beg your pardon,
I was there and the chain was up. You hear
people tell you that I said to the Trustees
don't make a decision until you make a
decision. There was no hearing I said
nothing. I mean everything is fast and loose.
Let's ignore the law.
One word that has not been mentioned here
in two meetings is segmentation. It's a
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planning con job by which developers give
Boards and municipal authorities a piece of
the project get it approved, then come back
with the next and get another piece approved,
or come to you on the next piece of pie and
say, well, we can't comply with the law
because we put the cesspools already where I
could put the buildings. You know, if people
were forthright (inaudible) lay it all out for
all the people concerned and you fit the
pieces together before you start, but what you
have here is segmentation and the lame
argument we don't have a place do this. The
only hobby I have
cars.
Why in front
is collecting trucks or
of this garage do we have a
2000 square foot paddock? I mean if we've got
the garage are we going to store trucks
outside, too? What exactly is the future of
this?
That affects the value of my adjoining
properties and the enjoyment of the future
owners of my properties, which is why I am
here, it's a legitimate concern.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So noted on the
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record and --
MR. ST~NKEVICH: It's not unusual either
for people to be so concerned.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. STAiqKEVICH: It is unusual to see
people so sensitive about raising the issues
that the law should be abided by unless there
are good and sufficient reasons not to.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, we have a
good deal of information from all concerned
parties entered into the record and submitted
to the Zoning Board. If there are any other
comments, I'd like to hear them now. If there
are none, we certainly have ample information
to proceed. Did you have anything else you
wanted to say?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we would like to offer
for the Board, we are -- my client is willing
to screen his garage and all the structures
with arborvitae along the property line,
right-of-way line, whichever, so that Mr.
Stankevich won't see the structure, but in
doing so you're going to be blocking the views
even more so. That's his choice, but we're
willing to screen these structures. So to
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that extent, if you -- if the Board wishes to
make it a condition of the approval, we'd
certainly be willing to do that.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: So noted.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Could you give us a
plan to show us what you're going to do?
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They're not going
to unless we condition it.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Yeah, but we're -- if
you have something in mind 10-foot arborvitae,
we'll provide 10-foot arborvitae. We have no
-- that's not a problem. I checked with my
client right before I spoke.
MR. TENEDIOS: 12-foot arborvitae.
MRS. MOORE: 12
MR. STANKEVICH:
dazzled camouflage.
foot arborvitae.
Maybe you should have
MRS. MOORE: In any case --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Well, at the moment
both of those lots are unimproved, so let's
just deal with one thing at a time here.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, they're wooded lots at
this point.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: They are.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you very much.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Hearing no further
comment, I'd like to make a motion to close
the hearing, reserving decision for a later
date, which would be at the earliest February
18th. If decision can not be made by then, we
may need to ask for an extension. We'll try,
this is a little complicated so we'll see what
we can do. We do have 62 days from today, so
it's certainly possible to do this.
MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: You're very
welcome, sir.
MR. STANKEVICH: Sitting here I just
noticed one thing. Mention was made of the
Ianu subdivision next door.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Excuse me, sir,
first of all you need to go back to the -- an
we have a motion to adjourn this hearing.
MEMBER HORNING: Which I'll second.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: -- which has been
seconded. I don't think that any other
additional comments are appropriate right now.
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, one short sentence
regarding --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAiq: All right, let me
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
let you make that sentence before we vote. Go
ahead.
MR. STANKEVICH: That application went
smoothly because the neighbors were consulted
and, in fact, I agreed to it as did the other
neighbors, they were consulted.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay. So noted.
We have a motion and we have a second. There
is some information that we will be receiving
prior to deliberation.
MRS. MOORE: I will confirm what you need
just so I have a list. You want the --
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Ail right, let's go
over the list.
MRS. MOORE: Sanitary approval.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Yes,
Health Department approval.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN:
copy of the
(Inaudible) plan,
if there's any future use of septic and its
relationship to the accessory garage.
MRS. MOORE: Do you want the -- I'm
sorry, do you want us to tell you what the
ultimate -- if we want a sink? I mean, no
bathroom or --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: We want to see the plan
that was approved --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: By the Health
Department.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: A copy of the
administrative approval by the Trustees, well
the agenda then with notes that just simply
give us a letter indicating you were present,
this is what happened, and that they're
holding final approval in advance until this
Board makes its decision.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON WEISMAN: Okay, I don't
believe there was anything else. Okay, so the
motion is to close this hearing subject to
receipt of those few items. Do we have a
second?
MEMBER HORNING: I do. No, Jerry was
second first.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
HEARING #6316 - Louis and Luba Corso
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: This is a carryover so
there is no need to read the Notice of
Disapproval. We do have with us, at the
request of the Board, Damon Rallis from the
Building Department to clarify some of the
issues surrounding the issuance of a building
permit.
How do you want to proceed? Do you want
to testify first or provide information first
and background, what is your pleasure?
Just a moment. Let's just note that Pat
Moore is at the podium.
MRS. MOORE: The last time we opened the
hearing and it was very brief. Last time it
was just to request an adjournment so we
opened the hearing and it was very brief, but
it has been a long time since the start of
that hearing, so I would like to go over my
presentation and that way you will be able to
(inaudible) of the issues and my reading of
the Code and maybe at that point Mr. Rallis
can state how he -- his interpretation differs
from mine.
CHAIRMAN WEISMA-N: All right, that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
fine. We can do that and then we can respond
to counsel's comments.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAiq WEISMAN: You meaning Mr.
Rallis. The tape has to record that.
Please go ahead and proceed.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
I do have a memorandum that sets forth
all of this, but rather than -- My professors
would always tell you don't give anybody
something to read while you're speaking or
there won't total attention. So I will go
through it and then I will --
I refer to 280-15 which speaks, in our
Southold Town Code, which speaks in terms of
accessory buildings and structures, which
states that "in AC zoning districts, R-80,
120, and 200 and 400 districts, accessory
buildings and structures or other accessory
uses shall be located in the required rear
yard," and then it goes on ~subject to the
following requirements." It is my contention
that this language is clear and unambiguous,
that accessory structures must be located in
the rear yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
This issue was addressed as to the
Steele's property in an appeal that Mr. Steele
brought in -- in a decision that was issued
10/3/06 in appeal #6618 which addressed some
of the same issues that I -- that bring me
here today because it was dealing with
accessory structures that were built without
permits and placed in a side yard. The appeal
#6618 dealt with three different requests for
relief.
The first was a 30 by 80 accessory, what
he described as accessory Ag barn, which was
located in the rear yard. The Building
Department directed that it be located in the
rear yard with less than the 75-feet minimum
rear yard requirements. The (inaudible) on
that plan was identified as building 1. There
were several buildings on that plan and that
was for building 1. The Board granted that
variance and Mr. Steele is permitted to build
a 30 by 80 accessory Ag barn in a rear yard.
The second request for relief in that
appeal was an addition with alteration to an
as-built accessory garage. The Board granted
the existing accessory garage in a side yard
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
with a side yard variance and a front yard
variance, but denied the expansion of that
garage. So it was partial relief there.
Finally, there were two accessory sheds
that were again as-built and referred
throughout the presentation in the record as
agricultural storage containers, which
identified it as building 3 and 4 and again it
was in a yard other than the required rear
yard. So throughout that appeal we were
identifying agricultural structures that had
to be placed in a rear yard and because they
were not being placed in a rear yard they
were, in fact, located precisely the same area
that this particular structure that Mr. Rallis
issued a CO for,
those structures,
building 3 and 4,
a permanent C for. That --
which were identified as
were denied.
I would ask the Board since we are here
that please note that when you're out at the
property the storage container was merely
painted. The metal storage container, which
was one of these structures that was
prohibited from being there, was painted. It
had -- Mr. Steele wrote a nasty gram for his
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
neighbors at the end and moved it a few feet,
but left it in a yard other than the rear
yard. Again, he never corrected that
structure. The Building Department has yet to
explain to me what is going on with that
structure, whether it's in violation, not in
violation, but it has remained there to the
frustration of the neighbors and in
contradiction of the Board's previous denial.
I also would point out that in 2006 there
is a photograph, which I attached to my
submission to you as Exhibit C, which shows a
hoop house which looks eerily similar to the
one that's there now and a storage container,
which was the subject of that appeal. And it
remains -- the hoop house now is the subject
of this application. It is beyond me whether
that hoop house was built there during the
time of the Zoning Board hearing. I know that
there had been a hoop house there and Mr.
Steele, in the testimony, stated that it was
being relocated to a rear yard, so it may be
that the Board said, okay, he's promising to
move it, but we have again a hoop house there
that is still there. The neighbor, you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
in your file from Mr. Soja a letter which
opposes -- similar objects to the placement of
this hoop house which is a -- it's more than
just a plastic covered Ag hoop house. It has
a foundation, it has wood sides and it has a
significant structure behind it. It is a
permanent structure that's there.
We believe that the building permit that
was issued by Damon Rallis for this 20- by 24-
foot hoop house was issued in error and that
it would have required coming back to the
Board for a variance. It's a different hoop
house in a different location, again, but
unclear because the survey showed a hoop house
there and we still have one today, but they
disregard the language of the Code.
Mr. Steele's property, and according to
appeal #6618 and it continues here today, has
a single-family dwelling. It has a pool, a
detached garage, and additional accessory
structures. As a result of that appeal there
was a large Ag building that was built in the
rear yard. I don't believe it's the same size
that had originally been asked of you, but it
is in a location -- general location that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Board had approved and that everyone's living
with.
I would also point the Board to the
language of 280-13A with respect to permitted
uses because for the life of me I've been
trying to figure out what -- how this
structure has a permit and Mr. Rallis will
certainly state that, but I want to point out
that 280-13 with respect to permitted uses
allows in this zoning district of single-
family dwelling. It also allows for
agricultural operations and Mr. Steele has
what appears to be field and garden crops
planted on his property. It speaks in terms
of, 280-13A, speaks in terms of paragraph C
that allows barns, storage buildings, screen
houses, including plastic covers and other
related structures provided that such
buildings shall conform (inaudible) Ua
building shall conform to the yard
requirements of principal buildings." Yard
requirements is the schedule that's attached
at the back of -- I'm telling you something
you already know, but it's a schedule of 280
that is attachment 3;1, that identifies what
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
are the setbacks of principal structures. The
setbacks are what have to be applied for Ag
structures. So assuming that and I'm doing
lots of assumptions, Mr. Rallis will have to
clarify this, we already have a principal use
on the property of a single-family dwelling,
and all the accompanying structures that are
related to the residence. He does have a
field crop for agricultural activity there.
He doesn't have -- it's a question of what
uses are permitted there, but I would argue
that the (inaudible) are the principal use of
the property and the plants are the accessory
-- are the -- another principal use that he
has of growing agricultural products.
Any accessory structure, any barn, and so
on, is an accessory structure that's accessory
to the agricultural operation. So assuming
you're allowed two principal uses on this
piece of property and that is a question for
the Building Department, in either case, these
barns, these accessory structures are
accessory structures and have to comply with
the provisions of accessory structures
requirements. With respect to yard
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requirements they have to meet certain front,
side, both sides, and rear yards, but the
location of these accessory structures is
dictated by 280-15, which says they must all
be in a rear yard, and a rear yard has been
established by the house that there's only one
rear yard.
So I look forward to hearing from Mr.
Rallis myself as to how this permit was issued
in particular because we've dealt with these
issues and previous Notice of Disapprovals,
some that I think Damon may have issued in the
past, that led to the 2006 application all
dealt with all similar structures, barns,
accessory odd structures as Mr. Steele would
call them. The only thing that was -- the
only structure, which was a residential
structure, in that 2006 application was this
garage, which was being used for personal use.
Otherwise, everything else (inaudible) of that
hearing deals with these structures as
accessory structures.
That concludes my --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Before you leave that
situation, I think we need to clear up a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
couple of things. I think this is Kenny's, do
you have any questions of Pat, at this time?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Not at this time.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just want to
recollect what I remember from what was it the
2006 hearing?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: I remember the
decision, okay, and I remember looking at the
property and I think I was up there three
times. Not necessarily on the property every
time. You know, I like to announce that I'm
here if I'm there and, you know, sometimes I
feel a little funny going on people's property
that aren't home or whatever the case might
be, but the one thing I did recollect was the
construction of the building that's before us
today during that hearing process.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: And I do recollect
Ms. Wickham telling us that Mr. Steele had
anticipated building or wants to build a
larger agricultural building on the site,
okay, but because of financial reasons, you
know, it wasn't constructed or it wasn't being
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constructed at this time and I don't have a
copy of the -- I just have a copy of the tax
map, I don't have a copy of the decision. I
don't have a copy in front of me exactly at
this moment, but I can remember that that
particular building was to be built sometime
-- someplace farther down, okay, that if you
were to stand in front of the right-of-way
equidistant between Oregon Road in the back
someplace in the middle of that or maybe
skewed a little more towards the house, but
definitely on the agricultural property and
that's all I understand.
I'm not telling testimony out of school.
This is what I recollect from that particular
hearing and that's all I can remember. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: But I remember that
the building, according to Mr. Steele, was a
necessity at that time he needed it, this
agricultural building that supposedly is in
front of us today all right and the nature of
this hearing. That's all I remember --
MRS. MOORE: But there was an Ag building
that was built where the barn is. There's a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
large oversized hoop house I guess is what
it's called in there and he got the approval
of the variance to be closer than 75 feet from
a year yard, which was adjacent to the
easterly Ag piece and nobody had an objection
to that. That was the appropriate place where
an Ag structure should go and that was our
understanding. So again it -- we're very
frustrated by this application that we're
here, we have to be here again.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Let's do this, before
we ask any questions or hear any more
comments, I'd like to ask Damon to come and
clarify from the Building Department's point
of view what the situation is.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Hi.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: One other thing, I
don't seem to find in this application I have
an old -- this is the only survey of the
property I seem to find in my application.
Let's take a look at that. It doesn't really
show the whole property.
MRS. MOORE: That was -- that was what
they submitted as part of their (inaudible),
but that's what those structures were a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
response to a (inaudible) to a request for
(inaudible).
[Board members are speaking to each other
and Mrs. Moore is barely audible.]
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: We do, that's what I
took it out of.
MRS. MOORE: All right.
CHAIRNLAN WEISMAN: But I don't see and
that's why I'm asking if I'm mistaken --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
submitted a (inaudible)
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
what we've got. Yup.
cause I actually
Hold on. Let's see
MRS. MOORE: There's another survey that
was submitted as part of the building permit
application.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Oh,
Are you familiar with this?
up and have a look at this to see if that's
something you recognize.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I'm familiar
there's this one.
Damon please come
with that. Actually I
over here.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
about you?
have a copy of that
Okay, good. Gail, how
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. WICKHAM: (Inaudible).
CHAIRNLAN WEISMu~N:
MEMBER HORNING:
hoop house and that
(inaudible).
CHAIRM/LN WEISMAN: Okay,
Damon go ahead. Thank you.
Okay.
You want to clarify that
(A) is the one that
let's carry on.
Would you please state your name for the
record?
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Damon Rallis.
Can you hear me okay?
CHAIRMAiq WEISMAN: Yes.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: I'm the Zoning
Inspector for the Town of Southold.
When I wrote the building permit, I was
the plans examiner for the Town of Southold.
Just so that everyone understands that.
There's a lot to digest here and I don't know
that I can answer every single one of Pat's
concerns and I'll probably -- it would be best
if I could answer your questions, but I do
want to say a couple of things.
First of all, I'm not prepared or at
least I didn't research enough to find out for
today the basis of the previous disapprovals,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the previous Zoning Board of Appeals
decisions, all I really prepared for today was
this one particular hoop house. I don't know
if I wrote the previous disapprovals or
someone else, regardless. I can tell you
this, every structure on that property
including the one in question, but the other
structures that were part of the previous
Zoning Board of Appeals decisions, do have COs
right now except this container structure.
Now, I'm going to put on my other hat, as
Zoning Inspector. I'm now in charge of Code
Enforcement. Without going into too much
detail there was a previous Code Enforcement
Officer that had issued, including the tickets
for the building that is in front of us today,
so it was the previous Code Enforcement
I was working on it as the plans
I am not a Code Enforcement
Officer.
examiner.
Officer.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
explaining that.
Thank you for
ZONING INSPECTOR P3tLLIS: I believe that
the container that is there, although I know
that's not the subject of this hearing, I do
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
want to make this clear that that is in
violation and I'm dealing with it.
Unfortunately, it's been a little slow going
because you guys have made a decision on that
container, basically that it had to go. Mr.
Forrester, the previous Code Enforcement
Officer, made a different decision. So I have
to work through that before I can make my own
decision as to what to do with this container.
I'm not ready to address that issue today and
I don't think it's appropriate to have that
discussion today.
As for the hoop house, I disagree with
Mrs. Moore's interpretation of the Code and,
historically, you know, I've been with the
Town for almost 10 years as a plans examiner
most of that time, as far as I know we've
pretty much always addressed farm buildings
the same way. Farm buildings are not
accessory structures. There is a reason why
there is a separate section of the Code that
talks about farm buildings having principal
yard requirements. I agree with Mrs. Moore
that they have to meet the same setbacks that
a principal dwelling would have to meet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
That, in the building Department's eyes, and
I'm sure if Mr. Verity were here he would say
the same thing, that doesn't kick you over to
the accessory section of the Code. Accessory
buildings are accessory to a use.
Let's talk about a dwelling for example.
I have a house. If I want to put another
building up, that is clearly going to be an
accessory to that home whether it's a garage,
a swimming pool, etc. That was the intention
of that section of the Code, put it in the
rear yard. We want the pool behind the house,
we want the garage behind the house, and it
meets a certain set of standards for setbacks.
They're actually more relaxed than a principal
dwelling cause you can put in the corner and
fit in the backyard.
We talk about two uses on one property.
It took me a while to sort of struggle with
that, but let's just say that, that he has two
uses on the property. He would be allowed to
have two uses. You would need one use --
you're allowed, one use per acreage, and AC
zone is two acres. Two-acre zoning, either a
flag or piece. You could have a house, you
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
could have a farm, both permitted uses. Where
I run into trouble is you can't say that a
building is accessory to a farm operation.
The idea of an accessory is an accessory to a
principal building not necessarily a principal
use. If I have a farm, what am I putting my
garage behind? Do you follow what I'm saying?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: How am I
putting it in the rear yard? I don't think
that by having two uses, we have a house, sure
I want to have a use that's associated with my
house. A pool for example, it's cut and dry,
it goes in the backyard. I need a farm
building for my crops. Well, we go to the
principal section of the code that says I have
to meet principal setbacks just like a house
would, which means I can put it anywhere on
the property as long as I meet principal
setbacks and, in this case, this is what we
had done.
The only other issue I want to address is
-- I'm just trying to think this through.
There was something else I wanted to say
related to this.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
well, yes, the fact -- I want to give a
little history of how this happened. I will
tell you that when Ed Forrester wrote his
initial ticket to Mr. Steele, Mr. Forrester
wrote the ticket, I believe he wrote it as an
accessory structure.
MEMBER HOR/~ING:
are you --
Okay?
Ticket for what, what
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: It was built
without a building permit, this structure was
built --
MEMBER HORNING: Notice of Disapproval
kind of a --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: No, a citation.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: It was an
appearance ticket and it was written as
commission to the offense of construction of a
storage building without a building permit.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: One was issued
for one that was in the rear yard, which I
think was part of the previous EVA decision
and one was written for one that was what he
determined to be in the front yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING:
if you could for us?
and a hoop house B.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS:
what you have?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
same one.
Could you identify those
There's a hoop house A
Could I look at
I think you have the
MEMBER HOP~NING: Right. You said you
anyways. Hoop house A is next to that
did,
container.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Is that this
one?
MEMBER HORNING: The one next to the
container is hoop house A.
ZONING INSPECTOR HALLIS: Hoop house A,
that ticket was written and that's the one
we're discussing today, correct, hoop house A.
That was written as construction of a storage
building without a building permit. Mr.
Forrester didn't make any determination at
that time whether it was an Ag building or
storage building accessory to the house and,
very frankly, I don't see why he would; I
wouldn't either as the Zoning Inspector. My
main objective would be to go out and give a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
ticket to Mr. Steele for building a building
without a building permit.
At some point, as part of -- and I don't
recall how it all played out with Code
Enforcement, but at some point Mr. Steele or
Mr. Steele's attorney came in and applied for
a permit for hoop house A, the one we're
talking about. Originally, when I first
looked at it, I will admit, I looked at it as
an accessory building. I said well, gee --
cause I don't know Mr. Steele. I don't know
that he has a farm. I have to rely on an
application. That's what the plans examiner
does. There is, to some degree, you have to
put some trust in the applicant that they're
telling you what they're doing, what this
building's purpose is. At first glance, I
thought well this is an accessory building.
This is in the side yard, but if you look at
his application it clearly states that it's an
agricultural building. So after reviewing the
plans and reviewing the application, I decided
that as an Ag building it could be in any yard
location as long as it met the principal
setbacks and, furthermore, and this to me is a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21 2010
little back up for myself because it's almost
like a checks and balance system, although I
didn't have to send it to the Zoning Board of
Appeals, because it's a farm building I had to
send it to the Planning Department for site
plan because any farm building has to go in
front of the Planning Board. I did get a memo
back, which I have here, and the point of
bringing it up is that I'd like to believe
that if they didn't think it was a farm
building they would have told me. They
basically waived the site plan because of the
I guess it was the size of the building, the
way it was constructed, they considered it to
be a minor addition to the property and the
Planning Board signed off on it and said they
were okay with it.
MEMBER HORNING: Is this the
February 23, 2009?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Sediq.
ZONING INSPECTORRALLIS: Is that from
Tomara Sediq?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
ZONING INSPECTORRALLIS: Yes, that's
correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
that?
MRS. MOORE: I'm aware of
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
Do you have a copy of
it.
So I issued the
building permit based on all that information.
MEMBER HORNING: What is the necessary
side yard setback for --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I believe it's
20 feet. I should have my Code book in front
of me, but I forgot to bring it. I believe
it's 20 feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Only 20 feet.
MRS. MOORE: I have it, I can let you
know. It is setback for a principal -- a
principal setback --
MEMBER HORNING: Ag structure, yes.
MRS. MOORE: Well, a principal setback is
I can tell you in the AC zoning district
requires side yard of 20, both side yards of
45.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay,
MRS. MOORE: 20 feet.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
believe on a
or --
so 20 feet.
20 feet, but I
front yard setback it would be 75
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: 60.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: 60 from --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: What was that 20?
MEMBER HORNING: 20.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: And it's noted as 23
on the survey.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: And the other
thing, I'm sorry, I'm just sort of processing
some of Pat's arguments and I just want to
answer all of her questions. The construction
of the building -- Pat has mentioned the way
it was constructed, it's not temporary. We in
no way believe that this is a temporary
building. In fact, Mr. Steele had originally
argued to the Building Department and Mr.
Forrester that he didn't need a building
permit because it was temporary. It was the
Building Department that made the
determination that based on that sort of extra
stuff, the knee walls, etc., that this, in
fact, constituted a permanent structure and we
made a decision that a building permit was
necessary for it.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, does this Board
have any other questions of Mr. Rallis, at
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
this point? Ken, do you --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes,
question. Looking at copies
tickets.
ZONING INSPECTOR R3tLLIS: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Ticket #964 and
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
them, I apologize.
Yes, here it is.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
copy I have?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
same hoop building A?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
bottom is for building A.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
I have one
of the appearance
965.
I have to find
Do you have the same
I do.
That's for the
The one on the
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: The one on the
top is for what I assume is noted as building
B. I can't say that for sure because I really
only investigated hoop house A before I came
here today.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: I do know that
the one on the top was for another building
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
built without a building permit. That one did
go in front of the Zoning Board of Appeals. I
can't say why, at this point, but it does have
a CO. Before I came here today, I checked to
make sure that every building on the property
did have a CO with the exception again of that
painted container.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: To my knowledge,
Damon, that was the building that I was
referring to when I was speaking to Mrs.
Moore. Okay. The hoop house B, hoop house B
was being constructed during the time of the
last hearing, okay --
MRS. MOORE: Without
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
a permit.
-- without a permit
and we did not address that in our decision.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Hoop house A or
hoop house B, I'm sorry.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Hoop house B was not
in any way addressed in that decision. It
couldn't be, it was under construction. It
did not have a fagade on it, at that time,
that it has today, okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: You're talking
about the one in the back?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: The one in the back.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Then perhaps,
and, again, I did not research that building
before I came here, so I can't say all of this
is definitely accurate. It has a CO, perhaps
it didn't need a variance.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Right.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: That I don't
know.
MRS. MOORE: But I do want to clarify, it
appears because there was an existing
container and then there was a future
container, that's the survey that I had, and
then the -- from that prior hearing there was
testimony back and forth about a shed. So
they kept relabeling what it was. Whether it
was going to be a shed --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's where the
confusion was.
MRS. MOORE: That's exactly right, but
it's in the same general area as the other
structures that were being classified as
structures.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: One of the
reasons that I sort of made the disclaimer in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the beginning, that I'm only speaking to this
structure is, again, I don't know who wrote
the previous disapprovals. It could have been
me, but the point is that the important thing
to remember is the part where I mentioned I
have to rely on the application. I can't say
for certain, sure, maybe Mr. Steele stood in
front of you and you asked him what are these
buildings used for and he might have said for
Ag storage, but I'm hard pressed to believe
that those were applied to the Building
Department as Ag storage or there's probably a
good possibility that he wouldn't have been in
front of the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Again, when you have two uses on one lot,
you have the house use and you have the farm
use, it's up to MR. Steele to come in and say
here's a building. I'm going to use it for my
house as one set of setbacks or rear yard
requirements. This is for my farm, it has
another. I'm not saying whether that's right
or wrong, I don't even know if it's the right
interpretation, but it has been the
interpretation of the Building Department for
as long as I've been here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
built building,
question Damon.
time
You know, in an as-
I just have to ask this
I have known you for a long
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Sure.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: -- and I have no
malice in -- you clearly explained the whole
situation. How can you determine that without
actually going out there and looking at the
building?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I saw the
building.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay, you opened the
doors. You realized there was agricultural
stuff in it?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: It's got tools
in it.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Rakes and
stuff.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Couldn't that be used -- I'm
sorry. Isn't that also for residential use?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Couldn't it be
used on a farm?
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ZBA Town of Southold -
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
205
January 21, 2010
I -- I mean we're not
MRS. MOORE: It's interchangeable, yes.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: You know, I
tell people al the time when it comes to Code
and now in this stage, when I was -- I do have
to say that this is actually very important.
I don't know how I would have handled this if
I were the Code Enforcement Officer back then.
That's a totally different bargain and he
handled this the way he thought was best to
handle it. As a plans examiner, Jerry, no I
wouldn't go out there and look inside of a
building, it's just something the plans
examiner doesn't do, but I had the liberty in
this case, because I was working with Eddie,
preparing to become a Code Enforcement
Officer, I actually went out there with him on
this one cause it was one of those ones where
he said, look, it's sort of crossing over.
This is going to be your job soon let's do
this together, but that said I say this to
people all the time. We're not CSI. I mean I
can't go out there and you know the guys got a
farm, he's got a hoop house, do I know if his
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
kids' bikes are in there? I don't, you know,
what are we going to do? Are we going to go
there everyday to check it? We can't.
As far as I was concerned in writing this
permit, it was an Ag building. It didn't look
like anything else to me.
MEMBER HORNING: Couldn't you use it dual
purpose also, an Ag structure?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
you ask. You know, you could,
Depends on who
but then would
it have to -- there's the theory. I mean if
somebody used it to store the chemicals for my
pool, is it accessory to the house, then
should it be in the rear yard? I mean it's
sort of -- you've got to use some common
sense, I think.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
appearance tickets.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Again,
Please continue, Ken.
Okay, back to these
Yes.
so Mr.
Forrester was out on Mr. Steele's property and
he noticed these two hoop houses and there
were no building permits for them.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Correct.
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Appearance ticket #964
was for that.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Appearance ticket #964
is for hoop house B, which was in the rear
yard and #965 is for hoop house A, which is in
the side yard, he wrote it up as a front yard.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I would
actually argue that it's partially in the
front and partially in the side.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
fine.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
Mr.
Fine, that's
Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And then seeing that
Steele went to get his permit for first
for hoop house B, which would be in the rear
yard here, and he got a building permit and CO
for --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Which one are
you -- I don't have B, I only have A.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, well B permit
~33052 --
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ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I know it's on
the survey, but I'm saying I don't have the
building permit for that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: All right, well I have
the copy of the -- well, it's the building
permit and the CO.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
May I see it?
I'm guessing
that's for hoop house B, (inaudible). Right?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Possibly.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Possibly cleared up.
Then here we have now applied for another
building permit for the hoop house in
question, hoop house A, and he applied for a
building permit and he got a CO for that and
that is the topic of discussion here along
with the container.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Permit number what, Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Here. And so my
question is --
MEMBER HORNING: Building permit #34590Z
is for hoop house A.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct, that's the
one in question and it was your determination
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that it is in a side yard because of its
accessory use to farming, agriculture.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's
Yes.
agricultural use
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I want to take
that word accessory use out because we're
talking about principal setbacks.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: It's part of
the farming operation, so therefore it's not
accessory to the farming, it's part of the
operation.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
if -- okay, it has to be there.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Its yard
location, as a plans examiner, its yard
location means nothing to me, only its
setbacks. Now, you brought up the previous
permit and I'm glad I got to see that.
Clearly, it would have stated if that was in
front of the ZBA for any reason when we wrote
our building permits and our COs, we mention
it there were requirements from the ZBA. So
in that case that one didn't go in front of
In other words,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
the ZBA and you'll see how I wrote that one.
KAn accessory structure," which tells me that
it was accessory to the home as applied for.
Okay, I'm not saying what it's used for, I'm
saying how it was applied to the Building
department. It was applied as an accessory
structure and, therefore, had to be in the
rear yard and I wrote that out as I would with
any other building permit that it had to be in
the rear yard as an accessory structure. It
was not applied to us as an Ag building.
Whether or not he's using it as that, I can't
say, it was applied to us as an accessory to
the home and, therefore, it met a different
set of requirements than the Ag building did.
That's why both permits and COs are covered
differently.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
CHAIRMAN WEISNL~N:
Okay.
The only thing I'd
like to have clarified is precisely what area
on this very difficult to read survey --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Horrible
survey.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: It's awfully tiny. I
mean it's a stamped survey but it's so small
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ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Even big it's
hard to read.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: It's kind of like
chicken scratch, but nevertheless we'll do the
best we can. I'd like to know, given that
there's a right-of-way here and there is
another access road here, what constitutes the
designated rear yard?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Well, now here
-- this --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Cause we have two
front yards.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: This opens up a
whole new can of worms because I was asking
myself the same question last night when I was
looking at this again for the first time in a
couple of years and as best I can piece this
together, okay, if I can look at the survey
with you --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: You certainly can. If
you can see it.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: In fact, the
line is right here, someone drew that in it
appears. We, at some point, prior to 2007,
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I'm going to say "we" referring to the
Building Department, I don't know if it was
myself, I don't know if it was me, Eddie or
Mike, we determined this to be the rear yard.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAI~: Um-hmm.
just
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
borrow your pen?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Yeah,
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS:
And if I could
please.
My line's not
copies of --
want to come
care?
very straight, but that would be the front the
yard, side, and side, which begs the question,
there's a 50-foot right-of-way, okay.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Why don't you label
those and then what I'm going to do is make
I don't know, Gall, Pat, do you
forward to see this or you don't
MRS. MOORE: I think I know what he's
drawing cause I had to draw the same thing.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, Gail you want to
just come up? I'm asking, for the record,
that the two attorneys come forward so we can
all look together at this survey.
Gail, have a look at that.
MS. WICKHAM: (Inaudible) is irrelevant.
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ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: No, I
(inaudible) in a second but (inaudible) this
is the rear, front, side and side?
MS. WICK/qD24: I'm (inaudible) take a
position on that today.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: You can check it, you
know, put it on your survey if you want. I
just want to get it clarified for that point
of view cause it's very tough to figure out
and that speaks to this (inaudible).
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Well, what I
just drew, that is how the Building
Department, as of right now and has at least
in my own memory in the past few years, laid
out Mr. Steele's property.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Well,
ZONING INSPECTOR I{ALLIS:
that --
You're going to
ask me (inaudible). Even the Zoning Board of
Appeals agreed with that through all their
decisions. This is the rear yard, this is the
side yard, but again I'm not sure where you
guys are going with this, but the fact remains
I don't think yard locations have any bearing
on this permit, only setbacks.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Because it's an Ag
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structure?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct.
MRS. MOORE: I would respectfully request
that he point to the Code where it says that
because there is no language that says ~except
for agricultural structures." That's been my
point all along that I understand how you
interpret it. It's the only way I could
imagine that this could be interpreted in
order to give a permit, but the Code does not
say that. If the Town wants the Code to say
that there is a legislative process to do it
and even the Zoning Board in 2006 did not
adopt that interpretation because the hoop
house B that you show on here was specifically
a barn --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I have to
disagree. The CO -- nor the CO, the
application, or the -- I can't speak to the
testimony in front of the ZBA, the application
for that hoop house, the application for that
hoop house, and the CO for that hoop house not
once does it call it an agricultural building.
It calls it an accessory structure accessory
to the principal dwelling. They are not the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
same structure.
MRS. MOORE: Which
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
to address the Board --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- not
The might look the same --
(inaudible) --
Hold on. You two have
I'm sorry.
each other.
MRS. MOORE: I'm trying to --
CHAIRMAN WEISM3tN: You could address each
other, but you have to look this way. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I'm pointing out that
in 2006 that's when Mr. Steele got permission
to build a barn. Let's forget about the
accessory --
ZONING INSPECTOR HALLIS: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- but a barn in a rear yard
which had been established by this -- by our,
you know, by the lines that have been drawn
there and (inaudible), at less than 75 feet
from the rear property line. So that is
established precedent; it was not appealed by
Mr. Steele. It is the law of the case. That
is an interpretation.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: 75 feet from
the rear property line.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, rear property line
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
being --
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: That's great
where was the variance that says that that
building had to be in the rear yard? Remember
principal --
MRS. MOORE: The Notice of Disapproval
that said it.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: So they got a -
- no, no.
MRS. MOORE: They got a variance to place
the --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: For a rear yard
setback.
MRS. MOORE: For a rear yard setback and
it was identified, the applicant's (inaudible)
in the application as a barn.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: A barn --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: One second. Could you
please come forward and note on this survey
which barn you are talking about? Pat, tell
us which one. I mean this is an impossible
little document and it's important.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: It is. It's an
impossible property, no offense.
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MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) when we were in
the hearing.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Ail right,
are we calling the barn?
MRS. MOORE: This was
barn.
so now what
applied for as a
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: That's what I thought.
MEMBER HORNING: B, hoop house B.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Hoop house B was
applied for as a barn.
MRS. MOORE: During the testimony hoop
house -- well, I'm not really clear on whether
hoop house B was under review or not under --
it was sheds, containers, and so on and they
were being labeled or actually the application
to the Board and the testimony, Gail said, "I
wish to amend my application to make these
agricultural structures." That was part of
the record and she was trying to argue these
are agricultural structures so let them go
here in the side yard close to the property
line. That is in that hearing and the Board
still denied those structures in the side yard
because the Code does not say that even and I
would disagree with Raymon on principal use
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
cause the principal use plantings for Ag --
Sorry. Damon states that what is principal
accessory use, the principal -- if we're going
to allow for two principal uses, the
agriculture is a principal use. The barn and
all those structures are accessory to the
agriculture, that's the only way I've
understood that we have -- if there were no
other structures on this property maybe you
could argue, I don't know, but it's always
accessory --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Well --
MRS. MOORE: -- and here in this
particular case you have a property that has a
reserve area for the house. This is the area
where it's been deemed that he can have his
residence use. The fact that the Ag buildings
to this area -- it's so predominantly the
reserve area for the main homse because the
pool. He has all these activities. The Ag
use is in the development rights area, but
okay they're contiguous.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: They are
contiguous.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, you know what, I
think, at this point, if you will permit me to
do so, I think I'd like you to just hold back
on additional comments and just let Ms.
Wickham come to the podium.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
Sure.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: You know, make her
comments and then see if the Board has
additional questions of her and then let you
continue.
MS. WICKHAM: Good afternoon. Gail
Wickham, I'm here on behalf of Steele.
I'm going to assume that Mrs. Moore
didn't just say that you can't have AG uses in
residential areas and just go from what I was
planning to say. Before I get to the
substance of our discussion I would like to
take a brief detour and give you a bit of a
procedural history. This application to you
is the latest in what has been a persistent,
nasty, and petty course of action against the
Steeles by Mr. Corso for well over a decade.
Since 1998 he has perpetrated litigation
against the Steeles regarding right-of-way
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maintenance on what is the simplest clearest
agreement you could imagine. Primarily
occasioned by flooding from his properties and
expansion of his use of the right-of-way and
that has cost the Steeles thousands of dollars
to defend. That's probably why they haven't
been able to build the barn.
He has -- just to give you an idea of how
petty it is. He has sought to hold Mr. Steele
in contempt before the Supreme Court of the
State of New York for constructing a small
dirt apron to a farm driveway that goes from
his farm onto the shoulder of the right-of-way
not even onto the roadway. He required the
Court of Appeals -- the Supreme Court to
direct him to remove hay bails from a drainage
ring on the side of the roadway in the
shoulder that was keeping silt out of the
drainage ring Mr. Steele had put in. These
are just a few examples. He has made false
complaints to the Suffolk County Farmland
Committee, to the DEC, countless complaints to
the Southold Town Police, the Building
Department, and the Attorney's office. The
sheer volume of those complaints have forced
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them to pursue several complaints. Some
valid, some not in the face of the relentless
prodding and the FOIL attempts from Mr.
Corso's representatives and his attorneys.
He's made lewd and threatening remarks to his
children taking photos of them as young
children and if you can understand the
Steele's frustration, unfortunately it did
provoke an unkind reaction in the nature of
that sign. It is unfortunate, but I think I
have never seen anything like this in my 30-
some years of practice. Unfortunately, I have
to say it's understandable. That's a
backdrop. I'd like to now get to the
substance.
Mrs. Moore has so confused and misled
this Board as to what happened here, she has
no idea what's what on this property. I can't
imagine how confused you must be and think how
confused Mr. Steele must be and Damon admitted
the Building Department is confused because of
the peculiarities of side yard setbacks,
front, and rear on this property. It is a
difficult problem. I myself have spent hours
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with the Building Department trying to figure
it out. I think I pretty much get it now.
Let's go to what's on the property. The
metal shed, which was the subject of a prior
variance, an as-built located behind the
garage 5 feet off the line. The ZBA did deny
in the prior variance that as-built location.
He moved it to a location now to the left of
the hoops A. A location that he and Mr.
Forrester personally reviewed before he moved
it. Beyond that, that building is not part of
this appeal and we should not be addressing
it. It is not involved in the building permit
which is being appealed in front of you today.
The prior appeal also requested a
variance for an as-built garage, which was
built after the issuance of a building permit,
but the problem was he had changed the
location from the permitted location in order
to preserve some old trees on the property.
The Board of Appeals did grant a variance for
the changed location that he built the garage
in.
MRS. MOORE: The 8 by --
MEMBER HORNING: Pardon me, can you go
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into that in a little bit of detail as to the
variance? Was it for the side yard setback or
MS. WICKHAM:
know that it was
I honestly don't recall.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The appeal number?
MS. WICKHAM: The appeal that's referred
to in (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Is that 66187 That's
appeal #6618.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Can I just say
something to you regarding that, Ms. Wickham?
I was the one that asked for some addition --
MS. WICKtiAM: That's my --
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, that was your
next statement, okay.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah. The second -- the
other thing he asked for was to extend that
garage further to the west, make it bigger.
That was -- that would have been a permanent
extension. That was denied by the ZBA and he
did not build it.
He also asked for an 8 by 22 proposed
storage shed that's shown on that first map
that Mrs. Weisman produced this afternoon.
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That was also going to be a metal storage
shed. That's really the only thing that
changed on the map. He never relabeled
anything. He didn't and I specifically recall
discussing Mr. Goehringer at that hearing
whether it could be moved further east over to
where the barn was proposed. We showed it on
a later map that way, but ultimately the ZBA
denied a variance for that, too, and it was
never built. The proposed 33 by 80 barn on
the east side was approved, it was not yet
built.
Hoop house B is completely unrelated to
the prior appeal. It was never discussed, it
was never part of the appeal, and has nothing
to do with the barn. That is not part of this
hearing and wasn't part of that hearing.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: That's absolutely
correct.
MS. WICKHAM: The current hoop house --
oh and the metal shed as I mentioned is not
part -- that was -- it was an as-built. It
was moved pursuant to Mr. Forrester's
direction and remains where it is now and it's
not part of this appeal.
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The hoop house, which is part of this
appeal, was constructed without a building
permit after Mr. Steele went to the Building
Department, was told in writing that he did
not need a permit for that hoop house or the
other one over on the east side because it was
not on a foundation, and I don't recall
whether they discussed Ag building or not,
they must have. Both the location and the
structure of this hoop house, that's before
you today, were cleared with the Building
Department before it was constructed and it
was 20 foot off the line that was critical to
Mr. Forrester.
Subsequent to the construction of that
hoop house, Mr. Steele had difficulty with the
stability due to some high winds during the
winter. He, therefore, secured it with a
wooden frame on the bottom and a wooden door
assembly on the south which faces away from
the neighbors and they can't see it, and a
wooden support on the north, which exactly
follows the shape of that original structure.
So there's absolutely no impact to the
neighbors with respect to those changes that
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
he made; however, not to be deterred, Mr.
Corso filed a complaint. Relentlessly pursued
the Building Department and the Code
Enforcement Officer and they did issue those
two violations that you mentioned earlier as
well as two related, both for the same
building.
After trying to negotiate with the Town
Attorney's office for a considerable amount of
time, there were issues as to the temporary
nature of the building, the agricultural
nature, lots of different issues, Mr. Steele
elected rather than spend more legal fees to
take the violation and agree to apply for a
building permit, which he did which was
issued. The CO was issued, now we're here
before you today to try and square it away.
So this is all something he had tried to
comply with. He was told what to do. It's
not something he just went out and did and the
rez judicata claim as to the prior decision
does not address this structure or this
location. There is no rez judicata as to the
prior appeal with respect to this permit or
this CO.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Mrs. Moore refers to some confusion about
an agricultural storage shed in the prior ZBA
decision, that's not the structure we're
talking about today. The mark up of the code
section that she shows in her papers is not
probative of anything nor is my January 31,
'05 letter regarding the proposed barn on the
east side; it was not built and it is not
relevant to this matter.
This structure is an Ag building. The
Code has always permitted co-use of
residential and agricultural uses on a
property. It's not exclusively one or the
other. You can have both. Agriculture is not
accessory to residential, it's its own
principal use. That is clear from section
280-13A and this is not an accessory
structure. Setbacks are determined on their
own merits not with respect to where the
residence is located.
I think what Damon was trying to say is
that accessory -- the provision that says
accessory structures must be located in the
rear yard does not apply to this situation
because it's not accessory. I also want to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
point out that this building has no concrete
in it, it has no nails in it, it has a
woodchip floor, it is 90 percent used for
agricultural tools. Yes, there's pruning
equipment, he has a nursery. He had to prune
with handsaws, pruning equipment, ladders,
supplies. He has burlap, he has tents. He
has agricultural vehicles in there. I don't
know if he's got bicycles in there. I have a
washing machine in my barn. It doesn't mean
I'm disqualified. Everybody's got stuff in
their barn, it just happens. So I think the
fact is that it is used as an agricultural
building but should be determinative of that
issue.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Can I ask you to
please just summarize for the Board's
clarification precisely what action this Board
is expected to take in this case because we've
had --
MS. WICKHAM: I think you --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAI~: -- so many discussions
about --
MS. WICKHAM: I was actually getting to
that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Yeah. Good, let's find
out what --
MS. WICKHAM:
issued its permit.
The Building Department has
You are being asked to
overturn that based on error. I think Mr.
Rallis has explained there was no error. The
burden on the applicant is to establish error.
You can't second guess the Building
Department. You have to find that they issued
the permit in error and I don't think they
did. I think there are issues as to whether
this application is timely made. It was not
made within 60 days of issuance of the
building permit. The applicant knew of the
issue prior to that time at least as early as
the time of the Planning Board's site plan
consideration because Mrs. Moore was there.
I think the applicant has a legally
vested right to keep this building where it is
and I would ask you not to -- not to put
basically another gun in Mr. Corso's arsenal
against his neighbors and I'm asking you to
please deny the application and uphold the
building permit.
Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Thank you.
Pat, did you want to make some comments
or Damon have you any further comments?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I'd like to say
one thing. I should have let Gail speak first
because I guess I'm getting senile. She is --
there is truth to the fact that Mr. Steele put
these buildings up, and as I did say earlier,
had -- I do believe he did come to the
Building Department, in all fairness, and
asked a question about temporary structures,
hoop houses. That's why I mentioned earlier
that we determined after looking at those
structures and now I recall that's why Ed
Forrester brought me out there. These sort of
additions that he made although there's no
concrete there, there's knee walls, there's
the framed bracing and all that. All of that
was added to the tent that he had originally
put up and that was why we made the
determination that they were, in fact, not
temporary structures, but they required a
building permit. So I just wanted to clarify
that, that yes, the Building Department did
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
say that to Mr. Steele in the very beginning
and --
MS. WICKHAM: And that was all resolved
by the violation.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: That's correct.
That's correct.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Gail, would you please
just state that at the podium?
MS. WICKHAM: That issue was -- the
question of temporary versus permanent was
resolved as far as the violation was concerned
by Mr. Steele accepting the violation and
applying for a building permit.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. WICKHAM:
something in.
MRS. MOORE:
MS. WICKHAM:
Mrs. Moore just handed
(Inaudible).
Okay, I would like an
opportunity to respond to that.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, we all --
MS. WICKHAM: I would like to ask if you
received a letter from Ms.
this application.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER:
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
silinger regarding
Yes.
I don't have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
signed copy of that. I might want to point
out a letter from the neighbor to the north
who goes by this property as much as anyone
other than the gentleman who cleared all the
property immediately to the north. I want to
point out to the Zoning Board, because I know
you're always concerned about screening, that
there is extensive screening along the north
line behind these buildings. That was done
partially as a result of the prior appeal and
also additional screening that Mr. Steele put
in. Some of these trees are evergreens and
they -- some of them are double row of
arborvitae and they are higher than the
buildings in question. I have a -- Pat I can
give you a color copy of this. It's a
photograph taken just last week which you have
to strain to see this --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: I think most of us
where there and have made inspection.
Certainly Jerry and I (inaudible) the previous
hearing so we were requiring those screenings.
Excuse me one second. Gail, did you want
to submit that photograph or do you have other
copies?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. WICk: You may have that.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Oh, you want to just
submit this to the office file? Do you want
to have a look at it, Pat?
MRS. MOORE: I've been there. I know
what it looks like. If she would just provide
me a copy of whatever she submitted, then I'll
just have a copy. That's fine.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: The Board's just
taking a look at it, that's all.
MS. WICKHAM: That is not a Google
photograph. He took that picture.
MRS. MOORE: May I continue then?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Oh, all right.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
CHAIRM3LN WEISMAIq: It's a good
photograph.
MS. WICKHAM: It's a great photograph.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Are we -- are we
prepared to --
MRS. MOORE: Can I respond?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Let's see if she has
MS. WICKHAM: I'm done.
MRS. MOORE: You're done.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, Pat go ahead.
MRS. MOORE: I will respond in the order
of the comments.
I provided for you a letter dated
December 28tn from Thomas Iles, Director of
Planning. There is a long history here and in
part and there is always two parties to every
disagreement. Mr. Steele does not come to the
table with clean hands. Every structure that
has been put on this property has been built
first and permitted later.
MS. WICKHAM: That is not true.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Hold on.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, every accessory
structure that we've dealt with before the
Board has been a basis of permit after the
fact. There has been very aggressive, very
rude behavior with Mr. Steele. Mr. Corso uses
the legal process. Mr. Steele uses -- picks
up dog feces and puts it on a sign. The
development rights area became a dirt track
where kids from all over were going to the
property at all hours and several children,
anywhere from the two in his family to 15-20
kids, would congregate to drive the dirt
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
track. That has been a source of difficulty
for the whole community and certainly Mr.
Steele -- the fact that he uses the legal
process I give him credit for not getting so
frustrated that it leads to altercations
between the two because it gets that bad.
So there is a long history here and it is
definitely not Mr. Steele who's (inaudible)
been beat up by Mr. Corso. It has been a
community that has complained to Mr. Steele to
please go by the law, don't be a nuisance to
your neighbors. It's not his agriculture use
that is a nuisance, it is all the other
activities that occur there that create the
nuisance.
Gail speaks and uses the term -- and this
is why the hearing from '06 is so confusing --
because she just identified the metal truck
transport container as a metal shed. That has
been -- that is why it's so difficult when I
go back to the record and it's so confusing
because we are speaking in terms of a large
trailer container, metal container, and she
speaks in the flowery ~metal shed". A metal
shed is a shed that is typically 10 by 10,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
that's a shed. We have been dealing with this
container and you see it there and it's still
there and the Board is aware of that metal
container and asked Mr. Steele to remove it
and it never got removed. So, again, it is
not always -- it is not Mr. Steele getting
beat up, it's Mr. Steele doesn't want to
conform with any of the -- doesn't want to
conform to the directives that the Board gives
or that the Town gives.
The hoop house I think was clarified that
if he went into the Building Department and
said I want to put a hoop house in, they're
thinking a plastic hoop house with rings, no
foundation. In fact, what he built there and
you see it for yourself is constructed with a
foundation. For whatever reasons, he needed
it, that's beside the point. The fact is that
it was constructed and it has significant
railroad ties. It is permanent. So it is
again construction without a permit.
But they are asking for you to make an
interpretation of this Code that says, fine,
you can have two principal uses and, again, I
didn't say that residential property isn't
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
permitted to have agriculture. It's based on
the size of the property, the number of uses,
principal uses per acreage. He may be
permitted to have both a residence and an
agricultural use there, but the fact remains
that the Code says that if the -- the
agricultural use is the planting of crops,
it's the crops, not the structure that he uses
to trim or support or store equipment and so
on. That has been the universal
interpretation that I'm aware of coming before
the Board with zoning applications. I am not
aware of the Building Department allowing --
considering, particularly where you have a
mixed use property, considering the Ag
building to be a principal structure that goes
anywhere on the property without any
consideration of where other structures might
be and in this case we have a significant
principal use, which is the residence.
So, again, I emphasize it all sounds very
nice and very logical, but that's not the way
the Code reads. It doesn't say, accessory
uses in a rear yard except for Ag uses. It
says, "All accessory uses must be in a rear
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yard." And we have a rear yard here by
placement of the house. If there was no house
here and the only use was the agriculture use,
the planting. Arguably maybe they'd have an
issue of, well, all right where does it go
because we don't have a front, a side, a rear,
we're using principal setback. But, in this
instance, we have another principal use and
they have established what is a front, side,
and rear yard and, again, I believe that there
is precedent because in 2006 the barn to be
used for agriculture was determined to be --
had to be placed in a rear yard and it could
be closer. The variance that was issued was
closer than 75 feet to the property line. So
again, I -- it's asking the Board to read into
the Code something that doesn't exist.
If Mr. Steele wants to lobby the Town
Board to make that position in the Code, so be
it. You may have some controversy at the
hearing that people don't want to have Ag
buildings directly in the side yard of a
principal dwelling. I think there are
ramifications going both ways on that, but it
requires a public hearing not a interpretation
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
that's being asked be read into the Code.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Can I ask for a moment
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: The two documents that
you submitted --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- did Ms. Wickham get
a copy?
MRS. MOORE: I gave her, yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: All right, I don't
know that we got a copy for the file.
MRS. MOORE: I have extras.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: And a letter.
[Mrs. Moore and Ms. Wickham discussing
what they each have in terms of
documentation.]
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: I finally got
the Code book in my hand. I just want to make
one more --
MRS. MOORE: Here you go.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, just come
forward, I just want to make sure, and there's
more I want to ask you about this.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: You know, 280-
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
13, use regulations in the Town Code talks
about permitted uses. ~One family dwelling
not to exceed..." etc., etc. nOne dwelling on
each lot." That gets us out of that problem
of having, ~'I have four acres. I could have
one dwelling for each." You know, as I said
earlier you could have one use. This is well
thought out. Number 2 says, "The following
agricultural operations and accessory uses
thereto including irrigation...", etc., etc. and
it talks about barns, storage buildings,
greenhouses, ~and other related structures
provided that such buildings shall conform to
the yard requirements of principal buildings."
This was set out in this section for a reason.
I'm trying to figure out why we're not
discussing 280-13C, accessory uses.
MRS. MOORE: I (inaudible).
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Correct. Why
are farm buildings not in that section? This
is how the Building Department interprets
this. That's the permitted use section, this
is the accessory use section. I'm not seeing
in the accessory use section the following --
MRS. MOORE: The first -- go on.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: "The raising of
farm and garden...barns storage buildings,
greenhouses", again I'm just trying to bolster
what has been the way it has always been. For
us to start saying now that farm structures,
even on a property where there's a house,
you're automatically putting in violation I
would just guess maybe 37 percent of the
properties in the Town of Southold. This is
the way it has always been interpreted. Maybe
Ms. Moore is right, if this is not the
intention of the Town, maybe the Code has to
go back and be rewritten, but the way I read
it and the way my colleagues in the Building
Department have always read this is this is
the way we treat Ag buildings. I just wanted
to clarify that, that there's a separate
section for accessory buildings.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Thank you. Thank you,
Damon.
Pat, what I wanted to ask you is to just
explain to us this letter that you've
submitted from Thomas Isle and I'd like to
have Ms. Wickham --
MRS. MOORE: Oh yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- we'll give you an
opportunity to respond to this.
MS. WICKHAM: Fine.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: We can do it here or
we can certainly do it in writing after this
hearing. I want to make sure you all have
ample opportunity to respond in whatever way
you feel confident you need to. Can you just
explain what the relevance of this letter is
to this application?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. I would not have
presented this letter had Gail Wickham argued
that Mr. Steele has been beaten up and he's
such a law abiding citizen and it's all Mr.
Corso that is coming down hard and using all
influence in such way that Mr. Steele has to
constantly be in a defensive mode. I'm
paraphrasing the testimony that she gave and
she gave various examples of how Mr. Steele
has been beaten up. Well, I guess I'm
pointing out that that is not the case. We
use the legal process to -- when we read the
Code or there is something that is being done
that is clearly against the law, we call the
appropriate official, or at least in our
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
opinion is against the law, we leave it to
those officials to determine is it legal or
not legal.
In this instance Mr. Steele after many,
many efforts to please ask him to stop having
the track that was -- it was a berm with a
track and in the field there was a dirt track
that was in the --
MS. WICk:
MRS. MOORE:
Excuse me.
-- development rights.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE:
MS. WICK/RAM:
It's prejudicial.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
One second.
MRS. MOORE: Well,
by claiming that Mr. --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
address us.
One second.
She asked for --
All of this is irrelevant.
I'm getting to that.
but you brought it up
Hold on. You have to
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: One thing I'm going to
request of both of you, while it's easy to
have tempers flair amidst feuding neighbors,
understandably, and this is certainly not the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
first application in which we've heard that
today, what is really before us is not
specifically the behavior of either party.
What is before us is an upholding or an
overturning of a building permit and that is
the jurisdiction of this Board, as far as I
see it. So I asked for clarification because
I wanted to understand the relevance of this.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: I have enough, I
think, I think the Board has enough
information to understand that this is a
documentation of the dilemma that the two
neighbors have had with each other. Okay and
while we have taken testimony on both, you
know, both sides, I think fairly, what is
really before us is the facts in terms of the
building permit and whether or not it was
issued properly or it needs to be overturned -
MRS. MOORE: I --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- as being issued in
violation.
MRS. MOORE: Right, I would also
emphasize that this deals with the use of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
development rights area,
agriculture. Mr.
are agricultural
agricultural use,
a use that is not
Steele emphasizes that these
structures for his
but in fact there is a court
action because he is using the property in a
way that is not in keeping with agriculture.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: He --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
Okay.
Fair enough. My
question is is that in litigation now; is that
what you're saying?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. There is a TRO
actually --
CHAIRMAIq WEISMAN: All right, so that's
in litigation, but that is not something to be
decided by this Board.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. There is not -- it's
relevant, but it is not --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
It is tangential --
(Inaudible).
-- to the -- correct.
Okay, so it's supplemental information.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: To keep us abreast of
what's going on. We spent a long time on this
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
application, I'd like to know if there's any
questions that any other Board members have of
any parties here, then I want to see if
there's anybody else in the audience who'd
like to speak to this application. First, let
me see if there are any things any Board
members want to ask at this point.
MEMBER HORNING: I would ask one final
question to the Building -- in your testimony
today you're saying that Ag structures must
conform to principal setbacks or principal
dwelling setbacks as delineated in the Code
for principal buildings.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Are you also suggesting
then that the Code has a totally separate
section regarding Ag buildings and that side
yards, and setbacks for side yards, and
placement of the buildings is not delineated -
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Well --
MEMBER HORNING: -- so they can be placed
anywhere on the property, front yard, side
yard, rear yard?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Ask me that
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
question one more time, I'm sorry. Say that
one more time.
MEMBER HORNING: You're saying that they
don't -- that an Ag structure doesn't meet --
doesn't have to meet the single family
dwelling accessory building setbacks --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: That's correct.
MEMBER HORNING: -- of rear yard, etc.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Right.
MEMBER HORiqING: -- Ag buildings must
meet, again, what kind of setback --
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Principal
setbacks.
MEMBER HORNING: Principal building
setbacks?
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: It refers in
the Code, it says principal setbacks in the
Code.
MEMBER HORNING: Principal setbacks.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: That's how it
reads.
MRS. MOORE: It says, ~Yard requirements
of principal buildings.H
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: There you go.
"Yard requirements of principal buildings."
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MEMBER HORNING: Principal buildings.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: There's a --
the way we interpret the Code there's a
section that discusses farm buildings. It
doesn't say, farm buildings need to be 20 feet
from the property line. It says, ~Farm
buildings have to meet the same requirements
as principal buildings." Principal buildings
meaning, in the case of a residential zone,
the house, the main building. There's a
separate section in that -- in 280-13 that
discusses accessory uses, different from where
it discusses the Ag uses, that talks about
swimming pools, garden houses, pool houses.
MEMBER HORNING: Understood.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
over to a whole other set of
requirements.
That kicks you
setbacks and yard
MEMBER HORNING: The Ag structure could
be in a so-called front yard is what you're
saying --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: -- or any yard as long
as it met the principal setbacks required --
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: Correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
it
-- which in this case
MEMBER HORNING:
are 20 feet --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct, side
yard, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, any yard. I mean
could be in his front yard. So --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Right.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: It would need to meet
the front yard setbacks.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Well,
talking about setbacks it says, "20
the side yard line," that's
not the yard location.
MEMBER HORNING: Got it.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS:
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: It's
Now,
when I'm
feet from
the property line
Thank you.
It's tough.
tough.
just one moment, obviously you have
something more you'd like to say. Let me see
if there are any other questions from the
Board at the moment on anything we've heard so
far.
Okay, are there any other comments that
anyone else in the audience would like to make
regarding this application?
Okay, Gail, why don't you sum up --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. WICKHA~: I just want to try and
clarify his question. I think what Damon is
saying is that when you're dealing with a barn
or an Ag building you look at it without
regard to there's a residence on the property.
It creates its own determination of where it
can be. So when you say front yard -- no?
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Uh --
MS. WICKHAM: That's the way I look at
it.
ZONING INSPECTOR P~ALLIS: I'm not saying
that because then that would mean that once I
put up one barn that becomes the principal
structure. It doesn't have to be. I can come
in with another barn --
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: -- and put that
in another location.
MS. WICKHAM: But vis a vis the residence
-- vis a vis the residence they're two
separate --
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct.
MS. WICKHAM: You look at them as two
separate situations.
ZONING INSPECTOR RALLIS: Correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. WICKHAM: I want to just say with
respect to this dirt bike thing, this is the
first I've seen this.
another complaint that
is only an allegation.
Again, it's probably
Mr. Corso made and it
I don't think it's
determinative of anything, I don't think it's
relevant to anything, and I would also like to
include in the record the Notice of Protected
Farm Practices under the Town Code, which
specifically talks about design, construction,
and using the farm structures and it's policy
matter of the Town (inaudible).
Mr. Steele took great lengths to --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Where does this come
from?
MS. WICKHAM: Southold Town Code.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Do you know what part
of the Code it is?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, I have -- I'll give
that to you. It's 280-97 -- it's
CHAIRM3~N WEISMAN: 280-97.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah and --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay.
this, I'm going to accept that
Why don't we do
for the file
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
and I'm going to ask that the office -- can
you provide additional copies for us -- you
know what, we can make them.
MEMBER HORNING: We all have --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: No, we don't have
that.
MEMBER HORNING: We don't have that?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: No, this is something
that -- we have the Code. That's true, we can
look it up.
MS. WICKHAM: It's from the Code. It's
actually what the Town Clerk (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: I'm just going to make
a note here, it's refer to section 280-97.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is there anything in
particular you would like to highlight in --
MS. WICKHAM: I did.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MS. WICKHAM: It starts at 97, it's the
Farmers (inaudible) and the Protected Farm
Practices are in 99.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Through 99, all right.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: 97 through 99.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: In Section 280-99,
Protected Farm Practices. Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
Ail right, hearing no other comments and
no other questions --
MRS. MOORE: May I just comment on the
Farm Practices, just for a moment?
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: That comes from the -- also
from Ags and Markets Law and there is -- it's
clearly indicated in Ags and Markets and Farm
Practices that zoning -- you still have to
apply zoning. We don't object to having Mr.
Steele have barns or agricultural buildings,
they just have to be placed in the appropriate
yard and our contention is that the
appropriate yard is the rear yard where the
other hoop house B, at one point, it was a
barn, it is the Ag building that -- that is
the area that is -- it should not be on top of
the residential homes, that was the objection
in 2006. That all of these structures that
were being put into that corner of the
property were all adjacent to the residences
when Mr. Steele had ample room in what would
be the "rear yard," by the rear yard
definition, is next to his agricultural land.
Next to the development rights land and, in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
fact, it's right there where his landscape
crop is. So proximity, makes more sense to
put Ag structures next to your activity rather
than next to the residential uses and that is
in 2006 a very -- it was part of your findings
of the Zoning Board decision. I recited in my
memorandum the language that you used in 2006,
which I believe is very appropriate in this
instance as well, and I --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: This memorandum?
MRS. MOORE: That memorandum, yes. And I
would respectfully request that the Board not
come up with new language. I think Mr.
Horning pointed out to Damon, where does it
say it in the Code, is there a separate
section in the Code for Ag structures. That
is precisely the point, there is none, and
accessory structures are accessory structures,
and it's clear according to the Code where
accessory structures are and I would ask the
Board to (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: All right we're going
to (inaudible). Unless there's something
absolutely new, I don't want to cut you off
MS. WICKHAM: This has no relation to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
this hearing as to --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: I understand that.
MS. WICKHAM: And Damon did not say that.
There is a specific section 280-13A 2(c) that
talks about Ag buildings and I'm not going to
repeat --
CHAIRMAi~ WEISMAN: Look, I believe that
the public -- the transcript is going to
reflect all of this information.
MS. WICKHAM: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: We absolutely have
plenty --
MS. WICKHAM: More than you need.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: -- for a determination
on this and I want to thank Damon for
appearing and clarifying the circumstances
under which this permit was issued and I want
to thank both counsel for their representation
here.
MRS. MOORE:
names.
MS. WICKHAM:
We're not calling each other
No.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
unclean hands bit, so that was
mild relative to (inaudible).
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Well, we had the
-- but it was
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MRS. MOORE: Very mild.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay, we have no
further comments from anyone in the audience
so hearing none, I will make a motion to close
the hearing reserving decision for later date.
MS. WICKHAM: Excuse me. I had asked for
an opportunity to respond to this memo.
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Oh, yes, that's
right. We'll give you time.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: How much time would
you like? We're deliberating on February 18tn,
if we're prepared.
MS. WICKHAM: That's fine, by the 127
CHAIRMAN WEISM3LN: February 127
MRS. MOORE: Maybe I need to --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: You might want to
respond.
MRS. MOORE: So I'll let you know if I
need time to respond to her comments.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. WICKH3~M: You tell me. You tell me.
I don't want to give you a date.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Let's look at the
calendar. I don't have a calendar in front of
me. Does anybody have a calendar?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
MS. WICKHAM: It's not going to be very
long.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Well, how about two
weeks and then you'll have --
MRS. MOORE: Two weeks --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: What's the date in two
weeks from now?
MRS. MOORE: Why don't we come up with a
date, January --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: Monday, February --
I'm going to get my calendar out so we
can straighten this out right now and we won't
have any confusion about timeframe. Let's
see, February 4tn is a Thursday and it's two
weeks from today. Okay? Thursday, two weeks
from today. Pat, how about responding by --
can you do it within a week --
MRS. MOORE: I don't know how much she
writes.
CHAIRM3kN WEISMAN:
want to -- if we want
I think the most we
to try to discuss it on
the 18th, we're going to need a little bit of
time. Can you try to Friday, February 127
MRS. MOORE: If I do need an extension --
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: You'll let us know.
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN:
I will.
Is that all right?
Okay, so we're going
to close this hearing subject to receipt of
response from Gail Wickham by February 4tn to
Pat Moore's memorandum and then time by Pat
Moore to reply to Ms. wickham's memorandum by
Friday, February 12.
MRS. MOORE: I'd like it the same day the
Board gets it, so I -- because if they
(inaudible) --
CHAIRM31N WEISMAN: That's fine. That's
fine. Can you provide for that, Gail?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN WEISMAN: All right, there's a
motion here. Is there a second?
MEMBER GOEHRINGER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 21, 2010
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
proceedings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
January 25, 2010
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