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DEC 2, 2 2009
BOARD OF APPEALS
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
December 3, 2009
9:45 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
MICFIAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE K~_NES WEISMAN - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member (start to 2:09 p.m.)
JENNIFER ~d~-DALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
LUCILLE CAPPABIANCA - Legal Stenographer
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Joseph Logan and Kelly Walker #6331 3-53
Joyce Orrigo #6332 54-66
John and Linda Scopaz #6329 67-76
Port of Egypt Ent., Wm. Lieblein #6233 77-90
Highland House FI, LLC #6337 91-113
Maggi Travis #6334 114-122
P. Betancourt #6294 123-149
M. and D. Sokol #6318 150-198
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ZBA Town of Southold -
December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
********************************************
HEARING #6331 - Joseph Logan
and Kelley Walker
MEMBER HORNING:
"Location of Property: 1110 Orchard
Street, Orient, lot containing 16,464 square
feet. Requested are Variances from Code
Sections 280-15C and 280-124, based on an
application for a building permit to
construct: (a) additions to the dwelling, (b)
a new accessory garage, and (c) swimming pool,
and the Building Inspector's July 30, 2009
Notice of Disapproval which states the new
construction is not permitted for the
following reasons:
1) Additions to the accessory garage
result in a size that exceeds the
code-limitation of 660 square feet,
and
2) Additions and alterations are proposed
in excess of the 20% code limitation
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
for all construction areas."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, who would
like to be heard on this? Meryl, would you
give us your appearance, please?
MS. KRAMER: Yes. My name is Meryl
Kramer, I'm the architect for the client. I
have the receipts and my notarized
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. KRAMER: I'd like to say also that
Joseph Logan is here. He's one of the owners
of the property and he's going to be speaking
to you with regard to the three-car garage
structure.
I did notice one thing in the
disapproval, it is written correctly, but in
one part of the beginning it says, Ua new
garage building", but it is --
CHAIRMAN GOEERINGER: It's existing.
MS. KRAMER: -- actually an existing.
CHAIRMkN GOEHRINGER: I was going to ask
you that question. Yes.
MS. KRAMER: And then it does refer in
the second portion of it as additions to, so I
just wanted to clarify that it is an existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
garage building, three-car garage. It is 750
square feet, I'm sorry, 775 square feet
existing and we're proposing a 266-square-foot
addition to that and I just wanted to speak to
that for a moment and say that with regard to
the addition to the garage one of the primary
reasons we did an addition is because the
three-car garage is a historic structure in
the village of Orient itself. The owner can
talk a little bit more about some lore that
goes along with it in terms of determining how
to defeat the mosquitoes or something in the
old original use of the building. One of the
things that they did was looking for ways of
how to obliterate the mosquito population. So
we wanted to keep the main form of the
building intact on the inside for both
functional reasons and because it is a big
open beautiful space.
Secondly, the structures that we are
proposing to add on to the existing house and
in the yard structures are all open
structures. We have a open uncovered deck in
one area. A wooden trellis, which it does
have a trellis roof, but it is again very
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
visually open and then a swimming pool. So
the proposed additions that contribute to the
increase in lot coverage, although they do
increase lot coverage, they are not something
that is really visually contributing to the
massing of the property. It's more of a
footprint fixture, so I just wanted to
reiterate that.
I believe Joseph Logan would like to
address the use of the building just to
reinforce that the use we're saying it is is
really going to be that and to alleviate any
concerns of Zoning Districts with regard to a
second residence.
Does anybody have any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
ask you a question, which building are you
referring to in reference to use or both
buildings?
MS. KRAMER: The garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: Which, you know, we're
calling it the garage it's going to be used as
what they call a hobby or, you know, an
artist's space.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: One second, Meryl.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to make sure
I heard you correctly. Are you saying -- I
know it's a 260-square-foot addition to the
garage structure that you're talking about and
you're saying the existing structure is 775,
already?
MS. KRAMER: Yes, so it's already --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, and the Code --
yeah, okay.
MS. KP3%MER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just had, hold on.
1035 square feet with the addition.
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
On the garage?
Yeah.
1470 is --
Well, 775 and 260 --
trellis.
MEMBER HORNING: Including the trellis,
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MS. KR3%MER: 266.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 266?
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: They're including, I
guess, the Building Department included the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Including the trellis,
well, it's 1035 with additions, but then the
trellis is an additional --
MEMBER HORNING: Correct and brings it to
the total that the Notice of Disapproval
states with the trellis.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, we just need to
clarify those --
MS. KRAMER: Absolutely.
CHAIRF~kN GOEHRINGER: So the difference
between the 1135
trellis?
MS. KRAMER:
(sic) and the 1407 is the
Yes.
Okay, as George
do you have a
that out?
MS. KRAMER:
questions?
MEMBER HORNING:
it talks about the Ag zone,
Data statement.
The -- where it has the five
Well, name address and
the Agricultural
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CFIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
just mentioned. George,
question?
MEMBER HORNING: I do. I reviewed the
architectural data statement and you filled
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MS. KRAMER: Yes, there are some
neighboring properties that are Ag zones.
MEMBER HORNING: I was wondering about
statement #8, this is following the address,
etc. Statement 7 says, is the parcel within
an Ag District and the answer is yes, then it
asks for the Ag District and it doesn't set a
number, but statement 8, "Is this parcel
actively farmed" and it appears like you
answered yes, but I think the answer is
probably no.
MS. KRAMER: No. Yeah, I didn't -- the
zoning, I'm trying to find the form because I
know the Zoning Board -- I believe you had
handed me the form with some of the things
already checked.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we didn't fill out
the top portion of it.
MS. KRAMER: Okay, yeah, this is not
actively farmed. There are areas adjacent --
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MS. KRAMER: -- to this property that are
actively farmed.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, right and then
continuing in that vein, on question #9 it
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
asks for adjacent farm parcels that are
actively farmed.
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: I was having a hard time
finding one of them, which I think was either
11.8 or 11-7. I see 7 on the map, but I
didn't know where 11-8 --
MS. KRAMER: It's 9, 11.9.
MEMBER HORNING: It's 9.
MS. KRAMER: 11.9, 11.7.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, right. Okay, so
that should be changed to 9 then --
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
MEMBER HOP~NING: -- on the statement, is
that what you're saying?
MS. KRAMER: I'm having a hard time
pulling up my statement, but when I find it --
C~AIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you sit
down and look at it, look for it and we'll
discuss it later?
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: And one further
question, if I may, just so you know what my
questions are. The certificate of
appropriateness from the Landmarks
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Preservation; does that exist?
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
MEMBER HOR/~ING: Okay, cause I didn't see
that in the file.
MS. KRAMER: I have not received a copy
of it. I think the Building Department still
has it because we are -- they have all our
paperwork because we are -- they have all our
paperwork because we're submitting for permit
pending this hearing and so they just kept
everything and they didn't furnish me with a
copy, but it is apparently finished. It has
been issued.
MEMBER HORNING: If you could locate a
copy and give it to us?
MEMBER SIMON: That's means that this
Notice of Disapproval is out of date then
because it suggests that that is pending --
MS. KRAMER: Pending.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and it looks as though
we cannot decide until we actually have
evidence that that exists because the Notice
of Disapproval doesn't say so either.
MS. KRAMER: Okay, well I could run down
to the Building Department and get a copy and
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
bring it back to you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's great.
MS. KR~34ER: You know, after the hearing
or if you want to keep the hearing open until
I get that to you, however you --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Well, we
would close it suggest to you giving it to us.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is on both the
house and the garage?
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: Just whatever is visible
from the street.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see.
MS. KR/%MER: So parts of the garage they
don't care about. Like the rear of the garage
where the addition is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Where the addition is
going.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, thank
you.
Sir, would you state your name for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
record, please?
MEMBER SIMON: We have -- I'm going to
have more questions for Ms. Kramer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you let
him present it and at least Meryl will be able
to collect that whatever she needs and --
MEMBER SIMON: I have questions, I'll
wait.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, thank you; if
you don't mind.
MR. LOGAN: I'm Joseph Logan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. LOGAN: Very well, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what would
you like to tell us?
MR. LOGAN: Just I have some documents
here which prove that this structure of the
garage is going to be for -- to be used as an
artist's studio and my partner is an artist
and I just have some documents here which show
the size of the works that he makes, which are
quite large and its another reason why we want
to keep that structure open on the inside and
not do any of the -- you know, make little
rooms on the inside. So he has enough space
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
to make his work. I mean also, you know, I
just want to -- I don't really have proof of
this, but he shows through a commercial
gallery in New York City and I can sort of
promise you in the letterhead of the gallery
here that sales happens the gallery. There's
no --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no sales
out here.
MR. LOGAN: There's no sales out here.
So I can show you that and just to say that
our intentions in all of this is to keep all
the structures looking and kind of maintaining
all the integrity of their original historic
presence and so that's why we're putting the
addition onto the back of the garage, but we
also, I don't know if it's noted anywhere, but
we removed a structure when we first moved in
on the back of the house. It was sort of a
70s deck, which is very much not in keeping
with the original look of the house
inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You bring up an
nteresting issue because we granted two of
these so far, one of which is strictly an
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
artist's studio.
MR. LONGAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Over by
(inaudible), I don't know if that's the
correct pronunciation, I apologize if it
isn't, in that particular case, the person who
actually is the artist came in. You can be a
partner on the property, you can be a partner
in general.
MR. LOGAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would expect if
you would at least give us something else
indicating either a sworn affidavit from him
or whatever the case may be, but you don't
have to give it today.
as documentation --
MR. LOGAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Just produce it for us
-- that this is
what this gentleman does and this is what the
issue will be.
MR. LOGAN: Yes. I also have a biography
which lists history of his work and shows he's
done it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the second
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
issue is what are we talking about in HVAC;
are we talking about heating, air
conditioning, plumbing?
MR. LOGAN: I think I'll let Meryl answer
that, but yes, we need it to be heated and --
you know, heating and cooling so he can work
in summer and winter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. Okay and
would we assume that the building would be
used predominantly out here for his work or
would he still be utilizing a studio in the
city?
MR. LOGAN: He would be using -- well, he
has a large studio in the city and I can show
you documentation of that as well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think Michael
offered this and I'll ask Michael, do you have
any questions for this gentleman?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know you would.
MEMBER SIMON: Actually, a question to
the architect, but I'll ask them both. First
of all, this is not so much for you, the -- I
looked at this and, of course, it looked to me
as though this was pending a review by the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Landmarks Commission and is it my
understanding that the Landmarks Commission is
only concerned with what they look like from
the street? That whatever -- that is simply,
this is out of their jurisdiction?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Maybe if you want
to use that mike at the same time, Meryl?
MS. KRAMER: Yeah, the Landmarks
Commission is concerned with the things that
are visible only from the street; however, we
did, in the hearing and in the preliminary
discussion before the hearing, discuss the
entire project because I am on the Greenport
Village Historic Preservation Commission and
so I'm very sensitive to these issues to begin
with and I understand the concern and the
limitations that they have and I wanted to
stress to them that I
architect, looking at
not just at one side.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
much with the aesthetic,
am, you know, as an
a building as a whole
I'm concerned not so
but with the
jurisdictional aspect of this. Namely, would
that mean that nothing -- as long -- as far as
the Landmarks Commission is concerned, you can
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
do whatever you want on the back of the
property as long as you can't see it from the
street?
MS. KRAMER: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And that's the principle,
so the swimming pool and the appearance of
this -- for example, if it had been on the
other side of the garage, then it would be
subject to closer scrutiny than this.
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, that's for
clarification.
MS. KRAMER: Yes, but in addition just as
with the Trustees and with the Zoning Board of
Appeals, the Landmarks Commission does have
public notices and adjacent property owners
are able to come and voice their concerns and
we did not have that --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, but on general
zoning grounds, not on Landmark grounds.
MS. KRAMER: Oh no. On Landmarks as
well.
MEMBER SIMON: As well?
MS. K~AMER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so in other words,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
if a neighbor was concerned --
MS. K~AMER: They would have ample
opportunity.
MEMBER SIMON: -- who could see the
backyard -- and are they noticed on this?
MS. KRAMER: Yes, they are.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, fine.
MS. KRAMER: And they have been and they
didn't --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I have another
question which is probably more for you than
for Mr. Logan. The Notice of Disapproval
refers to a pre-CO in 2007. Now, does that
mean -- what exactly does that mean? I mean,
is there a CO?
MS. KRAMER: There's --
MEMBER SIMON: Or is there just a pre-CO?
MS. KRAMER: I am under the understanding
that it is a C of 0 existing because the
previous owner did some renovations to the
building in the 1970s.
MEMBER SIMON: But why is it a pre-CO as
opposed to a CO? Oh, pre-CO has a certain
meaning at preliminary stage in getting a CO.
MS. KRAMER: Right and then it was never
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
fully executed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the house was
probably built prior to zoning.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's a Certificate of
Occupancy for a pre-existing structure. Okay,
that's what you mean by pre-CO. Okay. I
think that's a matter of clarification because
the term pre-CO typically means something that
you're working on and you're waiting for later
on.
MS. KRAMER: Right. It's a vague term.
MEMBER SIMON: It's a different meaning
of the term.
MS. KRAMER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So there's no CO problem?
MS. KRAMER: No CO problem. I would have
known about that by now because --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you just hold
up one second. It's very difficult to take
this down when you're -- and I just want to
get Mr. Logan's testimony in. Mr. Logan
stated that he -- it's his understanding that
this house was built, the original house was
built in 1925; is that correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. LOGAN: 1825.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1825, excuse me,
1825. That would definitely be a pre-CO. So
would 1925.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand it. The CO
for the garage?
MR. LOGAN: The garage, there was an
original structure built there in the 19th
century and it burnt down and then it was
rebuilt I believe right at the turn of the
century.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. LOGAN: And then this mosquito thing
happened in I think 1930.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, okay. A question
about the garage, it's my understanding that,
and with all due respect to our Chair, the
evidence of the legitimacy of the claim, the
reliability of the claim that it's going to be
used for an artist doesn't depend upon our
making a judgment as to the quality of the
person's work, but just simply be there
sufficient edification that this is what the
person does and this is what the person is
going to use it for.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I never referred to
it on that basis --
MEMBER SIMON: No, you wanted further
affidavits, I thought though --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that the person
is in that business, that's all. That's all
it is. I mean I'm not questioning how long
the person is in the business and the person
could start today for all
purposes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
intents and
(inaudible) --
They could be a
very gifted individual and could start
painting today, but the person is in the
business and that's basically it.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. We agree on
that, but what I'm saying in previous hearings
we've listened to a lot of testimony from
people who are trying to have us assess a
somewhat difficult case and extol the
international fame of the person who is asking
for that particular variance and most of us
thought that wasn't really fully relevant, it
was a way of softening us perhaps to be
sympathetic. That's not the claim here so I
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
think that I have no problem with what you
seem to be presenting on this.
My other question is that I guess the big
problem here is here we have a pre-existing
garage, which is oversized, and I guess, and
you're talking about another accessory
building, which would be subject to certain
kinds of constraints and you'd be allowed to
do that someplace on the property. So am I
correct in saying that you're really asking
that this accessory building, which is totally
unrelated to the garage, basically, be
attached to it rather than detached and that's
why you need a variance?
MR. LOGAN: Right. Can I explain? Can I
explain the function of the accessory
building? There's no plumbing -- well,
there's some old defunct plumbing in the
structure right now and he uses a lot of silk
screen in his work and he needs a sink, a very
large sink to wash out his silk screen. So we
need to build this large sink, which is
attached to plumbing and it seems -- in
addition to giving him the space to do that,
which, you know, would not take up the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
existing space, it seems less intrusive to do
that in a separate structure which is attached
than to do it inside the old building and also
there is a bathroom attached to that as well
and we need some space to store all the things
that one keeps in a garage. So ladders and
garbage cans and --
MEMBER SIMON: I assume that the 775-foot
garage is adequate for the garage storage
purposes. You're not
garage storage.
MR. LOGAN: Well,
asking for room for
that's why I brought
this document to show you the size of his
works, which are paintings which, you know,
are 12 by 15 feet showing that he actually
needs the amount of space that we have now to
look at these paintings and to make them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I continue on that
vane. So there is no welding, he's not a
sculptor, this is -- does he use any
mechanical equipment in spraying, in a spray
booth, in some minor --
MR. LOGAN: He uses a very large scale
printer, which is just on wheels and it gets
wheeled into the structure, but up to now he's
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
never made metal works or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I'm asking
because it has an impact in terms of noise.
MR. LOGAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Some people say
workshops and they're talking about power
tools and those kinds of things that can
create some impacts on neighbors.
MR. LOGAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I would imagine that
media Would be very quiet.
MR. LOGAN: Just a hum.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, just a small hum.
Let me ask a couple of other questions, if I
may, while I'm at it here. We have a letter
from a neighbor, have you seen that? We've
just received it. I'd like to make sure
you're aware of it then. What did I do with
it? Okay, this is from Keith Scott Morton,
who is apparently adjacent. I guess to the
rear of your property and --
MR. LOGAN: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- is voicing some
concerns about the location of the proposed
swimming pool with a 12ofoot setback from
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
their property line. Isn't that the property
line that's got the deer fencing along it?
MR. LOGAN: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and that's about
the only one that's actually open, you know,
not visually screened by vegetation and a
grass buffer and so on and the maintenance of
the pool equipment and so on. We can
certainly grant a pool then -- well, we're not
really granting a pool, it's lot coverage
because the pool is conforming, but we can
condition the location of it based upon
putting it -- the equipment in a sound-proof
cabinet, which we do quite frequently.
MS. KR~MER: Well, we were actually
exploring ideas. I don't have intimate
knowledge of swimming pool equipment, but we
were going to look and see whether we could
locate it in that mechanical storage area --
MEMBER WEISMAN: In the attached
addition.
MS. KRAMER: -- because we're trying to
utilize geothermal and solar power --
MEMBER WEISMAN: For the pool.
MS. KRAMER: -- for the pool and for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
studio. We can't show it on the set of
drawings yet because the Historic Preservation
wanted to see a cut sheet of the exact solar
panel that we were using and so until we came
up with the exact solar panel that we were
using we couldn't get approval. So we have to
go back for that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. KRAMER: But anyway, so we're trying
to actually power the mechanical system
through solar and geothermal and hoping to
integrate that in both the building and the
pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well then let's
pursue this a little bit further. It's not an
issue to propose evergreen screening along
that deer fencing, which is frequently done
for some privacy; however, let's look at the
possibility of how you feel about alternate
relief, which would be to slightly move the --
reduce the size of the pool. It's 20 by 40,
it's a pretty big pool. A small reduction in
the pool might allow for a little bit less lot
coverage and also a setback of say 15 feet
instead of 12. If you reduce the size of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
pool a little bit and possibly move it a tiny
bit closer to the proposed addition that's one
thing to consider.
MEMBER HOP~NING: What is the distance
right now from the northwest corner of the
proposed pool to the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Addition?
MEMBER HORNING: Right. The closest to
the southeast corner of the garage addition,
it's not marked on the --
MS. KRAMER: From the corner of the pool
to the addition?
MEMBER HORNING: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MS. KRAMER: It's not marked on there, it
looks like about 12 feet. The beginning kind
of slopes, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: If the pool became say
18 instead of 20 feet, so you'd have some more
room for -- you'd reduce a little bit the lot
coverage and you'd have some more room for
some screening, evergreen screening. It's a
thought.
Another thought was I realize you're
quite tight on the depth of the addition, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
is it possible, since we're dealing with a
structure that now, it's pre-existing, but
it's well beyond the scale of what the
existing code would permit an accessory
structure to be. It's a small addition, but
is it possible to make that 10-foot instead of
12-foot in depth, which would again reduce the
square footage of the proposed addition and
the subsequent total square footage of the
structure?
I have no problem with the trellis or the
open decks or any of that. Those are
architectural elements that do add to lot
coverage. I don't know the lot coverage is
terribly excessive either, frankly. You know,
it's not that great a proposal, but I'm
looking to see where we have just some slight
wiggle room here for minor tweaking so that we
grant variances that are the least possible
variances that we can grant.
How do you feel about that?
MS. KP~AMER: May I say one thing first?
We show the pool as a 20 by 40 rectangle for
simplicity purposes, at this time, but we were
contemplating having a pool that was slightly
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
irregular in shape, maybe a trapezoid or
something that responded to the different
geometries of the house, which is oriented
more towards the street versus the garage,
which is oriented towards the property line
which really has no relevancy to the street.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. KRAMER: And then there's that deer
fencing. You know, so we've got different
lines that are happening there and we are
looking at trying to -- but since we couldn't
come up with anything definitive, at this
time, I think we're going to do something
really more in the field, but try to stick to
the square footage we showed this, but Joseph,
I don't know how you feel about trying to find
a way to increase the rear setback there --
MR. LOGAN: I would love to find a way
to, either by reducing the size of the pool or
altering the shape of it, to keep it further
from that property line because we want to be
able to hangout on that side of the pool and
also, you know, that deer fence that he put up
is not pretty and I want to cover it up and so
I'm all for that, you know, the 10 feet versus
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
12 feet of the additional structure of the
garage really does in the long run, I think,
work in all of the neighbors' favor, too, to
hold all the things that you don't want to see
sitting out in the lawn. Lawn furniture and
all this maintenance stuff for the pool and so
I would rather try to sort of save some space
with the pool than with that additional
structure, which I think is going to sort of
benefit the community.
MS. KRAMER: The other thing we were
contemplating was actually changing the
configuration, reducing the size of the deck
on the rear of the house and keeping the
configuration very close to what the existing
porch is now and eliminating the addition off
the side. So that would actually, I looked at
the numbers, it would reduce that porch
addition from 235 square feet to 104 square
feet, which would bring our total lot coverage
down to 22.1 from 22.9. I know that
definitely drops the issue of the pool or the
storage, but we actually did talk in the
beginning at length about 10 versus 12 and we
were measuring all the different pool
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
furniture and all
we really did think that 12 was
the silk screen booth itself is
12 so it takes up a lot of that
the mechanical equipment and
the best and
I think 10 by
room because
Mr. Walker's works are so big they need to
have, you know, room to (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, another option is
a slight reduction in the depth of the
trellis. You've got 8-foot-7-1/2 or
something.
MR. LOGAN: And --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That won't have any
consequential --
MR. LOGAN: I would be all for that
actually. I think the trellis is, if anything,
it takes away from the sort of simplicity of
the existing structure and we want to make
that as invisible as possible.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, if you're going to
be able to reduce the proposed house -- what
was that the deck you were --
MS. KRAMER: It's the deck, it's 8.7 by
27.1. It would actually be 12 by -- wait.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm waiting.
MS. KRAMER: Sorry. It's 12 feet wide
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
instead of 27.1.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: So where it says, "Roof over
wood deck" --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
MS. KR3%MER: -- that's the essential
area. We just want to replicate what was
there and would be able to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So instead of 235 it
comes down to what, 1007
MS. KR~4ER: 104.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 104. Alright, so if
that was reduced then the pool would set back
a little farther and the -- and it's screened
and you'd give us a sense of where you're
going to be able to put the pump equipment,
where a drywell is going to go in for the pool
water backwash and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we'd like to
see the maximum evergreen screening that
you're anticipating back there or any other
landscape screening to screen that deer fence.
It's very important to us based upon the
activity that's going to go on in that garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's appropriate
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
for you, too.
MR. LOGAN:
MS. KRAMER:
I understand.
I was wondering,
when we
were looking into doing one of those succulent
fences like they do on the green (inaudible)
nowadays where it says drought tolerant
material. It doesn't require --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Any maintenance at all.
MS. KRAMER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MS. KRAMER: I'm not sure if that's
completely evergreen. I have to do a little -
MEMBER WEISMAN: It depends on what kind
of plant material. It depends most
(inaudible) regrow.
MS. KRAMER: Yeah. I don't know what the
other ones are. I guess we could put ivy in
there as well, which is a common thing
(inaudible) evergreen cause it could be more
of a wall without taking up --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it kind of
shrivels a bit in the winter, but it doesn't
fall off. It's still okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: If the deer don't eat
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before we go on to
Kenny, are you done Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Only one other question
and that's would you please address the HVAC
system.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What you're going to do
on the -- in terms of heating and cooling in
terms of the proposed artist studio.
MS. KRAMER: Okay, well we're looking at
doing a geothermal heat pump system, which
would take advantage of the water temperature
in the ground being a consistent 55 degrees
and the system is going to be supplemented by
electric baseboard heater because the existing
floor in the garage is concrete slab so it's
kind of cold to be standing on, but since the
owner -- he doesn't want to rip up the
existing slab and he wants to keep it a raw
concrete because he's working with paints and
there's no sense in putting money into fixing
a floor that you're just going to get covered
with paints and other materials. So that's
the --
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ZBA Tow~ of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: And some solar you're
going to use also?
MS. KRAMER: And the solar which will be
primarily for generating electricity, which
will then take care of the needs and hopefully
the house as well. It should be quite a big
roof array, so we should be able to use that
for the house as well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is any of
this paint noxious in any way that would
require a different type of sanitary facility
or a holding tank?
MR. LOGAN: It's all water based.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's all water
based. Okay, I just want to wrap this up
before we go to our last two colleagues here
and that is are we or are we not going to
close this hearing today? Are you going to
give us a new site plan indicating all of the
changes that you have incorporated or that we
are -- some of which we're requesting and some
of which that you are telling us today?
MS. KRAMER: I can't give you that now --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course not, I
understand that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MS. KRA24ER: -- but I
you within a week.
CHAIPdV~AN GOEHRINGER:
can give that to
Okay.
MS. KRAMER: But I also just would like
to kind of run down all the items one more
time ~-
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we'll do that
at the end of the next two gentlemen, okay?
MS. KRAMER: Sure. And you also need the
certificate of appropriateness.
MEMBER HOP~NING: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MS. KRAMER: Which I'll get.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'd like to see if
maybe you could reduce the coverage with the
pool instead of 800 square feet. It's
actually larger than the existing garage.
It's a quite large pool for that size lot,
maybe down to 650 that would take 150 square
feet off the total lot coverage. That would
bring it down to almost 0.9 percent. I'd like
another 0.9 percent, if you would consider
that possibly. That's all I have to say.
MEMBER HORNING: I have a couple for
clarification. I'd like you to clarify where
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the pool circulation pumps and the mechanical
things are for the pool. Is it in the garage
or the exterior to the garage?
MS. KRAMER: Are those allowed within the
setbacks, within the side yard --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They are actually
exempt, but we have found out that we cannot
deal with that situation anymore because
people have been attempting to put systems
close to property lines cause they don't want
to listen to them. So now we are, we're
actually telling people where to place them.
MS. KRAMER: Because I was thinking it
could -- we have 5 feet as -- that's the
required setback for the accessory structure
and the addition is 6.4. So I was thinking if
we put it on the west side of the addition or
inside of the mechanical room depending on
what the pool requirements are. I mean you
can't put a condenser inside because it has to
drain.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. KRAMER: But I thought we could
locate that on the west side, which would be -
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any problem
with that because actually it's not -- it's
close enough to the pool to be efficient and
there's nothing but a huge grass buffer on
that side.
MS. KRAMER:
now.
It is a vacant lot right
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it's substantially
setback from the adjacent neighbor. So it
seems to be a very (inaudible) location. If
you can put it inside, fine, if not --
MEMBER HORNING: One point --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just qualify
a statement that I made. I'm clarifying the
statement in reference to pool equipment.
It's very simply they were exempt, we told
them to put -- we told people to put them in
sound-deadening areas, but if they don't put
them in a specific location as agreed to
usually in hearings with neighbors, we don't
grant it. We don't grant it. That's it, I
mean, it has to be that way. We had that
situation in Cutchogue and so, you know, it's
something that people have to come back and
deal with as an accessory structure, assuming
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
that it's denied for that. In this particular
case it's not denied, but lot coverage is
involved. Okay, so lot coverage is part of
the package. So we really would like to know
-- I would like to know where the structure is
going to be. If it's going to be contained
within the confines of this garage addition
studio or outside, based upon --
MS. KRAMER: Well, if we said it's
outside and on the west side of the
mechanicals or the addition to the garage,
then if we were able to put it inside that
would be even better. Worst case scenario, it
would be on the west side and if you're okay
with that then we would get approval for that
and if we can move it in, we will.
C~AIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As long as it's
away from a property line, okay, so people
don't, if there's any sound. If there's any
sound emanating from it, you know, people
aren't going to be disturbed by it. We had an
extraordinary situation in Orient regarding an
air conditioning system, which the person had
refused to move. It was 2-feet away from
somebody's property line.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MS. KRAMER: This will be 5 and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll see. We'll
see what sound, if there's any sound that
emanates from it.
MS. KRAMER: So you're
there's a CO and everything
the owner complains then it has
readdressed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well,
saying that after
is finished, if
to be
that's the
problem. I don't know if it can be
readdressed, that's the reason why we try to
deal with it at this particular time or, you
know, through the process and I have no idea
what happened to the one in Orient at this
particular time. I don't know if Code
Enforcement is dealing with it at this
particular time. I don't know. I can't
answer that question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let's review what
we went over so that you're clear about the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, George isn't
finished.
MEMBER HORNING: I had just one brief --
could you just briefly clarify under what
jurisdiction this review for Preservation or
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Historic Landmarks, who did the
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review, what -
MS. ~ER: It's the Town of Southold
Landmarks Commission.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, not the National -
MS. KR3%MER: Oh, no, no.
MEMBER HORNING: Is it on the National
Register?
MS. KRAMER: No.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, because the
Building Notice of Disapproval doesn't make
that clear. It says either the Town of
Southold, New York State, or the National
Register.
MS. KP3%~ER: It's the Town of Southold.
It's within the Town of Southold Historic
District.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Historic District.
Okay, got it.
Okay.
C~IAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you're going
over this, Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. So we're looking
at a reduction in the size of the swimming
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
pool and a final location which increases that
setback from 12 feet to whatever with proposed
evergreen screening.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or other
landscaping enhancements.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or any additional
landscaping. Okay, the location of a drywell
and the pump equipment condenser for the pool.
Okay, we're looking also at a reduced size in
terms of the proposed porch addition on the
house and a reduction in size of the trellis.
So we will need those dimensions located on
the survey and I don't know, you know, I don't
really think, since you're not really changing
anything aesthetically that we really need to
have another set of architectural drawings if
you show the changed dimensions on the survey
perhaps subject to final submission of, you
know, amended architectural drawings that's
okay and you need to provide the CA.
MS. KRAMER: Oh, Certificate of
Appropriateness, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of Appropriateness from
Preservation, right. I don't believe we
really need an amended Notice of Disapproval
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
because they're very minor things, unless
anybody else on the Board it's necessary, we
can probably make --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not concerned -
what I am concerned about is every specific
element that is now shown. On any sort of
auto cad, can you do anything, can you take
this scale it on and auto cad it down for us
so that we have a final?
MS. KRAMER: Well, this is a surveyor's
drawing and I'm going to convey all the
information to the surveyor.
MEMBER WEISMAN: She'll get a new survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, to the
surveyor.
MS. KR/LMER: Yeah, and I'll have him
revise his drawings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
has to happen, Meryl, is,
have to propose what the new lot coverage
based upon those reductions.
MS. KRAMER: Right. Now, are you--
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're going to be
submitting some material relevant to the
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Okay, great. So --
the other thing that
obviously, you'll
is
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ZBA Town of Southold
- December 3, 2009
activities of the -- what will go on in the
studio.
MS. KRAMER: Like an affidavit or
something?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Like an affidavit.
MEMBER WEISMAN: A_nd affidavit from, you
know, and any other material you want to
submit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is not a legal
form, it can be done on any computer.
MR. LOGAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: with a signature.
The last -- did we discuss the -- within
this -- I apologize I didn't hear it cause I
was writing -- the reduction of the trellis?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that was on
there.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
rear porch addition,
That's part of porch,
trellis, and pool.
MS. KRAMER: Now, when you were saying
you want to reduce the pool to 650 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's what Ken's
proposing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I was just throwing
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that out there for you.
MS. KRAMER: Okay, so if they decide, you
know, if we're doing approximately 700 -- I
mean, this isn't prescribed, you're saying --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we'd like to
see a reduction.
MEMBER SIMON: I think we're asking for
an amended plan, but not complete new
architectural drawings at this point. We
started out talking about alternative relief.
Now, we're talking about the whole list that
Leslie has aptly summarized is what we think
would go into an amended application, which --
MS. KRAMER: I understand that, I just
want to make sure that you're not requiring we
come up with something that's not precisely
650, but we are going to increase the setback
from the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know what? By the
time you reduce the porch and the trellis and
this pool a little bit, you'll probably -- the
lot coverage variance is possibly go away or
be so de minimis that it's not an issue.
MEMBER SIMON: What we cannot do is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you may find the pool
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can be bigger than that by all means.
MS. KP~%MER: I wasn't sure whether the
pool being bigger or smaller was an issue. I
mean suppose they decide to eliminate the
trellis altogether.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's more related to lot
coverage. The pool should be your size, we're
concerned more with the setback.
MR. LOGAi~: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a present
application before us in East Marion, excuse
me, one second, right by Truman's Beach. They
are taking the entire trellis off. Okay, I am
not suggesting that in this particular case.
The trellis was a major component of the
excession of lot coverage for that particular
accessory garage, okay. It is presently
removed, so far as I'm concerned. We haven't
gotten that because the hearing is in January,
okay.
MS. KRAMER: Well, I'll just have to
discuss with the owners what's the priority.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Of course.
MS. KRAMER: But your priority is lot
coverage and you don't care where it is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's definitely
lot coverage. The reason why I said the pool
was because that looked like that was the
least desired area that you can work with.
Obviously, you want the addition to the garage
for the function of the art gallery and the
trellis and the pool being third. That's a
way, if you're going to chop away from area,
why not attack, you know, why not go after the
pool. So that's what we're looking at, the
lot coverage. I'm not picking on the pool per
se.
MS. KRAMER: It doesn't have to be one or
the other. Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: We're just trying to
reduce the lot coverage.
MS. KRAMER: I just wanted to be clear.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But if you're going to
screen from the street, which I imagine you
would, you're not going to want that swimming
pool to -- okay, thank you, George.
I'm assuming since the pool is at least
here and likely to wind up fundamentally in
the side yard as well as the rear yard
invisible from the street, let's put it that
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way, you may be considering, in addition to
the code-required fencing, some sort of
landscape buffer.
MS. ~ER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So can you please
provide that information so that we don't have
to condition it in a way that's going to be
different than what you want.
MR. LOGAN: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just tell us how you
want to screen it from the property line and
from the street.
MS. KRAMER: Yeah, we have a basic idea
right now as to what we're going to do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can submit that as a
separate plan if you want to submit a
landscape plan, site plan, rather than putting
it on the survey, that's fine. As long as we
have the information, you may be able to
provide that, you know, in a different way.
MS. KRAMER: Okay and is there a time --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there's one other
thing that George brought to my attention.
Just give us the information on the Ag --
MS. KRAMER: I have that. Maybe we can
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just go get a copy.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
fine.
MS. KRAMER: I
corrections.
Oh, you have it. Okay,
just made it by hand, the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Corrections. Why don't
you just submit that along with the rest of
the stuff?
Ms. KRAMER: Okay, I can do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just a package of
things.
MS. KRAMER: Okay and when would you like
this by, the latest date? Just because my
surveyor is not always --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have 62 days to make
a determination. Normally, we would be
deliberating in 2-3 weeks. We have some date
conflicts around holidays, so we're not --
we'll decide today when our special meeting is
that we'll be deliberating on all of the
applications for today.
MS. KRAMER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you can get it -- we
need it certainly a couple of days before we
deliberate, but if you need a little more
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
time, we can just deliberate in January.
MS. KRA~ER: But you're closing the
hearing?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't we
deliberate in January on this, okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine. We can
close the hearing subject to receipt and
deliberate at the January special meeting.
CHAIRMA/q GOEHRINGER: Right, which may be
early February.
MS. KRAMER: Okay and if for some reason
we get it to you sooner, then --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MS. KR~34ER: -- we will. I just can't
always speak for somebody else, what their
workload is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MR. KRAMER: -- and hope that they can
get back to me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you need to
incorporate in that particular document that,
in the set of documents that you're sending to
us, the fact that we are going to extend this
hearing past 62 days because it is a little
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
involved, okay, so --
MEMBER SIMON: Not extending the hearing,
extending the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me. The
time to make a decision, so give us 80 days to
make the decision on this one. Okay? Because
we're going to deliberate in early February.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you get it to us
we'll put it on our agenda.
MS. KRAMER: Fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But if you don't,
please include permission to deliberate for 80
days. I'm asking for everybody for that now
because these decisions have become extremely
involved and we need to deal with it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. KRAMER: Okay, I think I've covered -
I think I have everything noted and
appreciate your time.
CHAIRMAN GOEMRINGER: Thank you very
much, Mr. Logan, for your participation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to ask if
there's anybody else in the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, definitely.
Is there anybody else would like to speak for
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, based upon the list of 5
particular issues that Ms. Kramer is going to
give us. I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6332 - Joyce Orrigo
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Location of Property: 66425 C.R. 48
(a/k/a North Road), Greenport. This is a
request for a Waiver under Code Article II,
Sections 280-11 (as amended) and Code Article
III Section 280-12 to unmerge land identified
as SCTM #1000-40-2-12, based on the Building
Inspector's August 4, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval citing Zone Code Section 280-10A,
which states that the nonconforming lots
merged until the total lot size conforms to
the current bulk schedule (minimum 40,000
square feet) in this R-40 Residential
District. This land merHed with the adjacent
property to the west identified as SCTM #1000-
40-2-11."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who would like to
be heard? Would you come up and state your
name, please?
MS. ORRIGO: My name is Joyce Orrigo.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Hi, Joyce.
MS. ORRIGO: Hi. I didn't really prepare
anythinH because I was told I'd be asked
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
(Inaudible) this is my second go-round with
this. I inherited, basically, inherited both
of these and that's when they merged. It was
inadvertent. I had no idea about the merger
until I went to sell them, which was almost
five years ago. I reapplied because the Town
Code had changed slightly and (inaudible). I
don't know if you have any questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm just going to
mention one thing.
MS. ORRIGO: I also have (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thanks.
MS. ORRIGO: And I traced it (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a copy of
your application and I have the statements
withi~ that application which is on page 2 and
I have to tell you this is probably the first,
and this is not a derogatory statement, this
is the first time that an applicant has come
before us under the new law, I think, without
an attorney or representative for -- you know,
a person representing you in reference to
this. I want the Board to be aware of that as
well as counsel because in the past if we find
that there are certain elements of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
particular hearing that may or may not be --
may be lacking, let me first rephrase. We may
suggest to you that you should be represented.
Okay?
George, any questions on this?
MEMBER HORNING: Not at the moment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Our
illustrious attorney member, Mr. Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, my question is
related to Jerry. Yes, usually when we get
this and we have -- this is not the first
application we've had in consequence of the
change in the law and we welcome; however,
typically we see an application that explains
what specifically is true about the
application now which makes it legal, valid,
whereas it wasn't before. In other words, how
-- what I'm saying is what has changed -- we
may have to answer this ourselves, you may not
have to get an attorney to do this, but what
has changed so that we can turn the denial of
2005 into an approval of 2009 or 20107
MS. ORRIGO: Well, I think that the
requirements that you had to -- it may or may
not meet when you had this criteria, one of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
those has changed or two of them, I believe,
has changed. The financial hardship is gone.
CHAIRM3~N GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. ORRIGO: That was one of the grounds
that is not (inaudible), I did not (inaudible)
that since I have a job. I'm not starving, so
I didn't feel the need to prove that.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. ORRIGO: And I believe there's some
other change in the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It has to do with the
size of the lot relative to character of the
neighborhood. It doesn't -- there were subtle
changes in the --
MS. ORRIGO: There was subtle changes and
still very qualifying terms (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I think what is -- one of
the things that was relevant before and now is
clear that it stayed in ownership of members
of the family since it was -- since before the
merger and I believe the examination of this
shows that that is the case. This is exactly
the kind of case where you benefit from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
fact that there is no longer a hardship
requirement and that was often the basis for
people, some representatives used all kinds of
imaginative techniques to claim that it was a
hardship when it was a little bit implausible
and the courts have consistently supported us
in finding these inpersuasive. Luckily, you
don't have the burden of making that case.
MS. ORRIGO: So you're asking me --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we're still
going down the group of people that are --
what I want you to do is I want to make you
feel as comfortable as possible in your
presentation to us, nu~er one, and I want you
to know that I'm not sure that legally we can
tell you that the presentation was adequate or
not, okay. I'm just putting you on notice
that you probably are the first person that
came before us without --
MS. ORRIGO: Yeah, I knew that, but I'm
just trying to save some money this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand --
MS. ORRIGO: It was very expensive last
time and I didn't get anywhere.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I would presume that all
of the detailed facts are already in the
denial. The facts have not changed other than
the criteria for a merger, the facts of
inheritance are exactly the same?
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the single and
separate is described exactly the same, the
inheritance that created the merger is exactly
the same. The only circumstances that have
changed are the ones that the Town Code
changed.
MS. ORRIGO: Well it was inadvertent. In
the language of the first denial it was said
that it was said that it was somehow merged on
purpose and it was not.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it was merged by
law, by virtue of being held in common name.
The same name, when you inherited it was
merged because it was not held in two
different names,
saying?
MS. ORRIGO:
you understand what I'm
Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And for you the dilemma
was, as is frequently the case in these
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
circumstances, not knowing that it even
happened.
MS. ORRIGO: My understanding was that
the ZBA was going to be sort of to help people
get out of this (inaudible) merger process was
to help people who did merge lots unknowingly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is correct,
however, it had to be based upon a series of
circumstances that were described in the Code
and you rightly state economic hardship was
one of them.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That is no longer the
case. The courts ruled that economic --
MS. ORRIGO: (Inaudible) to meet all of
them, I don't think.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Well, you pretty
much do have to meet them all and failure to -
- the courts ruled that the failure to realize
additional profit from the sale of a second
lot. Frequently, what happened was there was
an improved property and a vacant lot next
door, rather than two vacant lots. The courts
ruled that that was not a valid definition of
economic hardship because you still had the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
additional value of the land and even though
it was a -- so it's a bigger piece of property
that you would be selling. That is no longer
before us, so the circumstances are changed
and we can consider your application
differently. For example, it would appear
that your two unimproved lots are basically
the same size as the other developed lots
within this subdivision and that is one of the
criteria we have to look at and I can see that
you're familiar with the Code and --
MS. ORRIGO: Yes, I don't have it in
front of me right now, but I felt like I met
that the first time around.
MEMBER SIMON: I think that's our
understanding of the previous code we never
were going into the question of intentions,
good intentions, bad intentions. Just simply
we on the Board were constrained by what the
Code allowed and now the Code has changed so
the constraints are less and, therefore, it's
a lot easier for us to grant the application.
So your application is timely, let's put it
that way.
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll just draw your
attention to the title search itself and in my
cursory review of the title search looking at
lot number, I'll take 12 first, that you
basically acquired this piece of property on
3/31/94 under Libor 11675 page 622 as a
parcel. Okay.
MS. ORRIGO: Is this 11 or 12, I'm sorry.
CHAIPd~kN GOEHRINGER: This is 12, it just
happened to be the first one, okay, and I'm
not swearing you in or anything of that
nature. When I get into -- I'm reading the
last portion of that title report, okay, in
its entirety and the issue of Joyce Orrigo and
Burt E. Gildersleeve as co-executors to Edgar
O. Gildersleeve to Joyce Orrigo. Do you see
that?
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you are
the sole owner of lot number 12.
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
CHAIRM3%N GOEHRINGER: Okay, as of that
date, which is the nature of this merger
situation.
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then we go on
to Lot number 11, which I just had.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's the last page, I
think.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I dropped it when I
was discussing that. Okay, which was Bert E.
Gildersleeve and Joyce Gildersleeve as co-
executors for Owen E. Gildersleeve to Joyce
Gildersleeve Orrigo. Oh, that was your maiden
name?
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Gildersleeve?
Okay. So on 4/17/95 recorded under --
recorded -- that was the date of the deed
recorded 5/23/95, which I didn't mention on
the other one, under Libor 11726 page 308, you
became the sole owner under lot number 11.
MS. ORRIGO: 11, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that correct?
MS. ORRIGO: Yes.
CHAIRMkN GOEHRINGER:
On that date; is
Okay. Does anybody
have any other questions of this nice lady
regarding this before we go into asking
anybody else?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
C~{AIRFu~N GOEHRINGER:
questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I
Any other
just have a quick
question. This map, Eastern Shores map, do
you happen to know the file map number for
that?
MS. ORRIGO: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Offhand? Okay.
MS. ORRIGO: I was not able to find that.
That had to be on the original.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you want to call
Real Property Tax Service in Riverhead, I'll
give you the number, it's 852-1550 and ask for
the mapper that deals with Southold, it may be
Joe, and ask him if he could furnish you with
the file map number for this subdivision.
They are extremely helpful in Real Property
Tax Service in Riverhead. It's on the second
floor of the County Center.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just
you.
-- okay. Thank
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, we'll
see what develops. Is there any reason for me
to keep this, I just want you to think about
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
this, is there any reason for me to keep this
hearing open for you so that you can talk to
counsel within the next two weeks and see if
you are happy with the way the hearing went
and you need counsel for any particular
reason? I'm not -- this is not -- I'm trying
to be as nice as --
MS. ORRIGO: I'm not sure what you're
suggesting. It's pretty straightforward.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I know you
said that before and I just --
MS. ORRIGO: You know, I went through it.
I believe there's a lot of clarifying terms in
your criteria whether to waive it or not. It
does not, I don't think, say all things have
to be met.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MS. ORRIGO: I mean I would like to say
that of all the places to build an extra house
in Southold that is probably one place where
it would not make (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. ORRIGO: I think it's a -- it's a way
for you to right a wrong that the Town did.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MS. ORRIGO: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Don't leave,
please, until we close the hearing.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
Any further questions?
Hearing no further questions, I'll close
the hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER SIMON: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6329 - John and Linda Scopaz
MEMBER SIMON:
"Location of property: 6300 Indian Neck
Lane adjacent to Little Neck Bay (a/k/a Hog
Neck Bay), Peconic: CTM 86-7-2.1. Requests
for Variances from Code Sections 280-14 and
280-116, based on an application for a
building permit for an addition and
alternations to a dwelling and the Building
Inspector's July 22, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval stating that the new construction
is not permitted because the setbacks are
proposed at:
(a) less than the code-required minimum
of 75 feet from a bulkhead,
(b) less than the code-required minimum
of 20 feet on a single side yard,
(c) less than the code-required minimum
of 45 feet for combined side yards,
and
(d) less than the code-required minimum
of 75 feet from the rear property
line."
Okay, who is representing, Mr. Scopaz,
himself, I see.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. SCOPAZ: Yes. Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning.
MR. SCOPAZ: I'm here also with Tom
Samuels, our architect in case you have any
specific questions about the design.
I believe that the application was pretty
thorough in explaining what we're trying to do
and the context in which we're trying to do it
so that if you have any questions, I'm happy
to answer them.
MEMBER SIMON: I guess my principle
question, it's not a challenging question, is
the side setback where the house is being
added on to is where there is an impact on
setback. It's on the west side of the
property where it's going to a 10-foot,
approximately 10-foot 10-inches setback and
that's part of the addition that is being
added to the west side of the house.
MR. SCOPAZ: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: How do you think that,
well, first of all, how do you justify that
and how -- what is the impact on the neighbor
for example?
MR. SCOPAZ: Okay, well the justification
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
really comes out of trying to rationalize
where you can do an addition on the main floor
of this house with the least amount of impact
to the surrounding areas and what we tried to
do is look at where the various septic systems
are and where, in fact, we could do an
extension and it winds up being that to do a
main floor extension that westerly and
northerly extension are the only places where
we can physically do those extensions.
MEMBER SIMON: There's a lot of room to
the -- it's a relatively narrow lot,
(inaudible) side setback issues and quite a
deep lot.
MR. SCOPAZ: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: There's plenty of room to
the north. On the other hand, I mean,
clearly, you have reasons, architectural and
aesthetic, for wanting the house to, as much
as possible, the house to be on the waterside.
MR. SCOPAZ: Well, as much as possible on
the waterside, but also to remain in context
with the houses immediately adjacent to our
house and to preserve some landscaping. There
are some, north of the house, there are 100-
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
year-old rhododendron bushes and trees that
help define the property and help -- will help
screen what we're trying to do from our
neighbors. So in preparing our plans here we
had extensive conversations with both our
neighbors to discuss the optimal way to do
this and so I believe that's what we've
presented here.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, that's what I was
going to ask because if there is any neighbor
that's impacted it would be the one to the
west --
MR. SCOPAZ: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and that person has
been in contact with you?
MR. SCOPAZ: Yes, we discussed the plans
that we submitted to yourselves with both of
our neighbors prior to doing the submission
because we knew that if they were not
comfortable with --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. SCOPAZ: -- it that, you know, that
it would potentially be an issue. So I
believe that they're in complete agreement
with our preservation of the existing trees
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
and bushes and to do the addition in a place
where it's not going to impact those because
if you go to the property you will see that
the property is quite well screened from that
neighbor.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. SCOPAZ: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: That's one of the things
that struck me, is that I think it's a
splendid location and from the point of view
of looking at it from the water, it was
obvious to me that there was a problem with
the neighbor on either side, I just wanted you
to address that.
MR. SCOPAZ: Right. So there's a large
stand of trees between the two properties and
the house that's situated westerly of us is
quite setback from where we are so that our --
they won't even see our addition.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. There is no poison
pen latter from the neighbor, quite contrary.
MR. SCOPAZ: That's good to hear. Good
to hear.
MEMBER SIMON: I have no further
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CFIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Scopaz, looking
at the plans for this area that my colleague,
Mr. Simon, was just dealing with it appears
that a portion of the ground floor addition is
going to be a master bedroom, the guest room,
a bath, a couple of baths, walk-in closet, an
entry hall and so on and so forth. How much
of that is part of the existing house at this
time?
MR. SCOPAZ: How much of it is part of
the existing house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it all new, is
that all new?
MR. SCOPAZ: For the most part, it's all
new. There is very small overlap between an
existing bathroom and the master bedroom
that's being proposed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's, of
course, to accommodate the family on the
ground floor of the house, specifically, on
the first floor?
MR. SCOPAZ: Well, we're looking for this
to be a retirement residence and so that we
can live on one floor and there are no
bedrooms on the main floor as you can see --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CFIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see, yes.
MR. SCOPAZ: -- in the existing house.
CFLAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, that's what I
wanted you to say, okay.
MR. SCOPAZ: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that was the
purpose of it, okay.
MR. SCOPAZ: That's the purpose of it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to check the
existing and proposed setbacks because we had
a variance that -- well, you had a variance
from the Zoning Board November 16, 1977,
number 2367, that indicated that this variance
prohibited any decrease in the side yards on
what was considered a substandard lot that was
created by this variance. It would appear
that the only setback that you are decreasing
is the one side yard setback that's proposed
at 10 foot 10 inches; is that correct?
MR. SCOPAZ: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have an existing --
I want to just check if these are existing.
Right now you're not changing the setback from
the bulkhead at all, it's 41 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. SCOPAZ: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's noticed in the
disapproval because it has to be.
MR. SCOPAZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But I want the record to
reflect that you are not proposing any seaward
changes to this dwelling. You have an at-
grade exit onto your patio and then you walk
down to the bluff and the steps.
MR. SCOPAZ: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The code-required
minimum side yard of 20 feet on a single side
yard you're reducing this to 10 foot 10 on the
westerly side.
MR. SCOPAZ: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that's a
reduction. We have to, therefore, address the
previous variance from 1977, then we have a
code-required minimum of 45 feet for combined
we have 39 feet. That will also be a slight
reduction because you will -- okay, this is a
reduction and then we have bulkhead setback of
required 75 feet, but it's 73.10, 10 inches,
that's staying the same.
MR. SCOPAZ: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we have two staying
the same, two being reduced. Okay, just other
comments are that the location of the addition
is very well thought out. It is the only
place you can responsively put an addition on
this house. It certainly doesn't have much of
an impact on neighboring properties by virtue
of the fact that one is much closer to the
road, the other has a very generous side yard
and you're not increasing on that side yard
anyway.
MR. SCOPAZ: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And relative to the size
of other homes in the area yours is modest and
so the proposed addition would be in keeping
with the scale of other properties. As far as
I can see. You've received another variance
on April 30th in 1998, which was 4550 to
construct an addition to the existing dwelling
and that would just simply be background
information.
The architecture actually has some
historic significance as well as a previous
home or art studio of a well-known historic
local artist and it looks to me as though the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
architectural proposal before us is very much
in keeping with the character of the existing
dwelling. You're not radically changing any
particular style. So I just wanted to make
those comments and enter them into the record,
but I don't really have any further questions.
I just wanted to clarify that.
MR. SCOPAZ: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: No.
CFIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just don't
leave. We'll see if anybody else has any
questions. Would anybody else in the audience
like to speak on behalf of this application or
against this application?
This looks very good. I have no further
questions, I thank you for the presentation.
MR. SCOPAZ: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I will make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6233 - Port of Egypt Enterprises
By william 5ieblein
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances from Code Sections
280-56 and 280-116, based on an application
for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's July 27, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning addition/alterations
proposed to a (restaurant) building, which new
construction is proposed: (1) at less than
the code-required minimum of 75 feet from a
bulkhead adjacent to Southold Bay, and (2) at
less than the code-required minimum of 35 feet
from the front yard lot line, at 62300 Route
25, Southold; CTM 56-6-6.1. Zone District:
Marine M-II."
MEMBER SIMON: Mr. Strang?
MR. STRAi~G: Yes, good morning.
BOARD: Good morning.
MR. STR~_NG: The application I think is
straightforward, defined pretty well. We are
proposing a waterside deck on the building,
which will run between the existing restaurant
and terminate along the existing wood
retaining wall that's been there for quite
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
some time. The existing building itself is
approximately 50 feet from the bulkhead and
our proposed deck is going to be 20 feet from
the bulkhead at the closest point, which, as I
mentioned, is behind the existing wood
retaining wall.
With regard to the roadside addition,
once again, we're proposing some deck
construction which will also be within the
confines at the roadside of an existing wood
retaining wall. The deck will be pretty much
on the front side, roadside I should say,
flush with the level of the building, and on
the waterside will be down somewhat from the
existing floor level of the building so that
we're closer to the natural grade level at
that point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you ramping down?
MR. STRANG: We're going to ramp down.
There is shown on the site plan a ramp toward
the southerly end of the side deck going down
to the southerly deck so we can ramp down from
there as well as on the westerly side so that
service to the deck from the kitchen area will
be via a ramp that's proposed for that side as
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
well.
Again, there is a lawn in that area at
present time and some landscaping, this will
definitely take the place of that and as far
as the -- for the record, we do have a permit
from the Trustees with the only condition
they've placed on their approval was that the
area between the bulkhead and that existing
concrete sidewalk you see on the site plan on
the south side is to receive some indigenous
vegetation. Otherwise than that, they granted
the permit as applied for and as depicted on
this site plan and we are awaiting the
determination from the DEC at this point, but
they have not as yet made their decision.
So at this point I'll answer any
questions I can. The family owners of the
facility are here. They can answer any
questions that I cannot.
MEMBER SIMON: The question is on the Old
(inaudible) roadside the 3.5-foot setback,
what is at that point right now?
MR. STRANG: A retaining wall.
MEMBER SIMON: So in other words the
retaining wall is going to become the edge of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the building.
MR. STRANG:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. STRANG:
The edge of the deck.
And the deck.
The building itself, the
footprint of the building is not going to be
changed. There will be deck construction
proposed and it's also, just for the record,
there is also proposed as shown on the site
plan a roof extension over the easterly part
of the deck.
MEMBER SIMON: Is there anticipated
internal reconstruction of the restaurant?
MR. STRANG: The internal layout of the
restaurant is being altered and, as a matter
of fact, we have a building permit in front of
the Building Department or an application for
a building permit in front of Building
Department, at this time, to do interior
alterations.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It will continue that as
a restaurant?
MR. STRANG: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It'll be a newer
restaurant as I understand it.
MR. STRANG: It will continue as a
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
restaurant. It will be a restaurant under a
new name and new operator.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: And as you may know, the
tenant of the previous restaurant had been
before us not very long ago with regard to
Hollisters across the way.
MR. STP3~NG: I was not aware of that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Lieblein is in
the audience. The actual applicant of this
project. Are you done, Mike?
MEMBER SIMON: I have no further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Garrett,
where did you say the Trustees were requesting
some plantings?
MR. STRANG: Okay, between the boat basin
bulkhead --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. STRA/qG: -- and the concrete walkway
that's along side the wood retaining wall
where the deck will terminate, approximately
there's a 20-foot strip there between the
bulkhead and the retaining wall and there's
maybe a 5- or 6-foot walkway there and then
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the remaining area between the edge of the
concrete walkway and the bulkhead they want
vegetated.
C~IAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Yeah, I
couldn't see --
MR. STR3%NG: They wanted non-turf
actually, they were specific they wanted a
non-turf vegetation in that area. So --
C}{AIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STR_A_NG:
concern they had,
with.
That was an environmental
which we have no challenge
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there's virtually
no slope to the bulkhead. It's pretty flat.
That grassy area from the building down to the
bulkhead is pretty flat.
MR. STRANG: It's relatively flat from
the building to the retaining wall.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a little bit of
slope, yeah, and then after that.
MR. STRANG: And then after that it steps
down to the concrete and it's relatively flat
from the concrete out to the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah and this is wood
decking itself?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. STRANG: This will be wood decking.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's pervious, it's got
slats and --
MR. STRANG: Yeah, I mean there'll be
gaps and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, rain runoff and so
on.
MR. STRANG: Exactly.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: That was my
question, that's good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's basically
it. I just wanted to make sure, you know,
that there wasn't going to be any runoff
issues and if it's going to be slatted wood,
that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This deck is open
to the sky?
MR. STRANG: At the present it's proposed
to be open to the sky although I don't know
and I'll leave that for the owners to comment
on, but I think that they would like to have
the option to possibly put up a seasonal
covering in the future if they felt that it
was necessary, meaning an awning or canopy or
whatever.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Mr. Lieblein
it's a pleasure seeing you. Would you state
your name for the record?
MR. LIEBLEIN: William H. Lieblein.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would happen
to the water runoff if you chose to put some
sort of canvas temporary canvas up during the
season?
MR. LIEBLEIN: Putting a canvas up over
the season prevents the water from hitting the
deck and going directly to the grass, which is
your question. As you pointed out, the
Trustees and part of our meeting the
requirements of the order on consent from the
DEC, we have just now gotten permission to
install a French drain from the walkway
directly to the west of the area in front of
the restaurant all the way across. So the
walkway that goes down so that people use to
get on the boats from high and dry and the
purpose of that is any runoff from the
blacktop that goes south will go into the
French drain and go through the two-tier
filtration system or separation system
actually is the proper word, and if we were to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
-- if we were to put a cover on this at some
point we would then direct that water into the
same French drain so that it would also go
into the separation system.
At the present time, our thoughts were to
have umbrellas over tables and not have the
enclosure so that when you're sitting inside
in the wintertime and you're looking out it's
unencumbered.
C~LAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. Some of
these, I know this is all hypothesis at this
point, but some of these canvas tops that they
put on the wineries have become extremely
sophisticated in reference to their water
runoff and that's what precipitated me to ask
that question. I suspect you're going to have
to come before us again if you so choose to do
that, and --
MR. LIEBLEIN: At this time, we don't
think we're going to want to do that, we want
to have an extension on the side to give
protection as you walk up to the restaurant
and possibly ask for an awning or something
going (inaudible) just in front of the
building.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
You asked about the interior. Basically,
we're planning to make the bar U-shaped
instead of L-shaped and just change, instead
of the food coming out right behind that
service bar that's there, to have the food go
out the other way and from there go to the
tables. The dining area inside will be
slightly reduced as the bar is slightly
increased. (Inaudible) to go there and create
a menu that's more appropriate to the people
that are in the marina. Most of them have not
been making use of our facility so we're
trying to make something that's --
CFIAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: User friendly.
MEMBER WEISMkN: Boater friendly.
MEMBER SIMON: Boater friendly.
MR. LIEBLEIN: Someone who comes in right
now and is washing their boat would not even
think of going in and get a bite to eat cause
they don't feel they're appropriately dressed.
We want to create an outside venue where they
could go up and sit down and relax and still
be in your own marina, which also (inaudible)
because we're going to draw on our own
clientele. Parking is going to be minimally
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Affected, if at all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is actually
the first time since Armando had it that this
has actually been moderately renovated in any
way.
MR. LIEBLEIN: That's right, 30 years.
31 years ago.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Held up pretty well.
MR. LIEBLEIN: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: More or less.
MR. LIEBLEIN: It's worth it. You know,
it's held up pretty well (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just have to go
back to the original application that Mr.
Lieblein had for this huge storied building
that Mr. Lieblein had spent six months or so
before this Board and then, unfortunately,
didn't build it. They built it across the
street and so it was probably as interesting
as the Hay Harbor Club in Fishers Island where
the application that came before us several
years ago and it's truly a pleasure to see
you.
Is there anybody that has any questions?
MEMBER HORNING: Just customarily and for
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
my own enlightenment, you're open year-round
customarily or seasonally?
MR. LIEBLEIN: The history of this
restaurant goes back to 19 -- summer of '46 or
'47 when my father and my two uncles built the
first (inaudible) restaurant on the property
out of secondhand lumber and my uncle
(inaudible) there until 1960 at which time it
was moved up to its present location. The
building, the roofline that runs east/west
used to run north/south moved up there by the
Davis Brothers --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the Davis
Brothers.
MR. LIEBLEIN: -- who are still around, I
guess their descendents and it was enlarged
and if you've been in there when you walk in
and go over towards the men's room in the
restaurant now there are some raised benches
and if that was the extent of the dining room
at that time that's the big extension my uncle
had. Those of you -- nobody up there, maybe
you, Jerry, can remember that the tank, the
fish tank in the old restaurant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, yeah. Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. LIEBLEIN: Which, when an eel went
down the drain and (inaudible) it blew out and
there (inaudible) in the kitchen. When they
moved it up there, the fish tank got
eliminated and we used to drive back and forth
in front of the restaurant when my uncle
decided to retire and (inaudible) he put the
extension (inaudible) on the front
(inaudible). Part of that building was built
by used lumber in 1946, '47 in the winter of
'46 or '47. So we ran it, our family ran it
up until 1978 and then Armando ran it until it
got turned over to (inaudible) and (inaudible)
I tell the story I wonder what my point was or
what your question was.
MEMBER HORNING: My question was, sir,
that customarily are you open seasonally or
year-round?
MR. LIEBLEIN: Yeah, my uncle was always
open year-round and Armando was open year-
round it's been open year-round as a seafood
bar (inaudible) and our plan is to be open
year-round and then try and make the venue
such that local people will want to come there
throughout the season to use that facility.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Just another anecdote so
to speak, the -- I think appropriately located
multiple programs you have in your area has
served those of us in New Suffolk as an
example of what we did not want to have in New
Suffolk, particularly right in the center of
the (inaudible).
MR. LIEBLEIN: They're beautiful.
MEMBER SIMON: They're beautiful in the
Port of Egypt, okay, but they're not beautiful
in the middle of New Suffolk.
MR. LIEBLEIN: I hear you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you very
much, gentlemen, for your presentation and
some of that history.
MR. LIEBLEIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else in the
audience like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6337 - Highland House FI, LLC
MEMBER SIMON:
"Requests for Variances from Zoning Code
Section 280-14, for this proposed subdivision
of property and proposed single-family
dwelling. Based on the Building Inspector's
August 31, 2009 Notice of Disapproval, the
proposed conversion of the existing garage to
a single-family dwelling is not permitted for
the following reasons: (1) its size is less
than the code-required minimum livable floor
area of 850 square feet, and (2) its location
is less than 60 feet from the front yard lot
line. It is further noted that the proposed
subdivision requires approval from the
Southold Town Planning Board. Location of
Property: Ocean View Avenue and Heathulie
Avenue, Fishers Island, Town of Southold, NY;
Suffolk County Parcel #1000-9-11-7.12."
MEMBER SIMON: Mr. Hamm?
MR. HAMM: Steven Hamm for the applicant.
I have the affidavit of posting and the memo.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. HAMM: Yesterday, when I was
preparing for this hearing, I took a look at
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the floor plan that the architect had
submitted, which is at variance with the
Notice of Disapproval and the survey. I spoke
to the architect and my memo which had been
prepared a couple of days earlier referred to
the 665 square feet. In fact, we need a
variance only for 800-808 square feet rather
than 665, so we're asking only for -- well,
we'll be at 95 percent of the minimum as
opposed to under 80 percent for that and
that's been corrected by hand in that
memorandum.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So wait a minute. The
Code requires 850 --
that
MR. HAMM: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and you're saying
-- oh, I see.
MR. ~L~4M: We have 808, it's the mistake
about probably, we think, because the
came
surveyor measured the ground floor around the
bottom and it's sort of, I guess, a
cantilevered situation here where there's more
space on that second floor as opposed to the
foundation and the garage on the first floor,
but you can rely on what the architect -- the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
architect rechecked it for me yesterday and
the floor plan which I sent in in late
September is correct.
So your variance could read 808 square
feet.
CF~AIRM3~q GOEHRINGER: Is that the maximum
that you're requesting at this time?
MR. HAMM: Yes, we're still 5 percent
short on the floor area.
MEMBER SIMON: One question that occurred
was that with this shortage of floor space it
occurred to us that at least one of the rooms
on the ground floor could have been designated
as livable space if that were necessarily,
particularly, if there are very large variance
(inaudible). Is that something that you
thought about or --
MR. HAMM: Well, I'm prepared to discuss
that, if necessary, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It's less compelling on
the light of this correction.
MR. HAMM: Exactly, it won't be as
substantial a variance than was originally
anticipated.
MEMBER SIMON: But you would be willing
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
to discuss that possibility --
MR. HAMM: I can't, you know, obviously,
it's something that could be done. We would
not want to do it to the whole bottom floor.
MEMBER SIMON: You wouldn't need to.
MR. HAMM: And wouldn't need to either,
but it would seem to be somewhat of a
technicality here. I mean this is a structure
that's already in existence, it's not as
though we're preparing to build it in this
particular configuration.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. As I say, this --
that possibility occurred because of the
apparent unattractiveness of some of the
alternatives such as, for example, moving the
building.
MR. HAMM: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. HAMM: I, if it's important to the
Board, there are 126 square feet in the area I
guess where the mechanicals are now would sort
of be other than the garage and the stables
that could conceivably be finished within the
definition of the code for livable floor area,
which is the operative language.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: The stable could not be.
MR. HAMM: Well, it's just an additional
expense. They are, if you've been to that
site you could see that the house is
undergoing substantial and costly renovation
and they intend, my clients intend to put a
fair amount of money into this structure as
well if they're allowed. So any saving would
be helpful. That's --
MEMBER WEISMAiq: Well, I think there's an
argument that can be made by virtue of our
historic knowledge of this property and the
fact that it really does pay to be able to do
a site inspection. Both Ken and I were there
at the Town Board and met the owner when the
Town Board was over there meeting, our annual
Fishers Island meeting.
MR. PiAMM: She had accompanied me to the
hearing in March on, you know, we were --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right and, of
course, George, knows it very well being from
Fishers Island, but the fact is that it has
been continuously used for many, many years as
a dwelling and there's a lot of-- it's amazing
how -- I mean walking through it it's not even
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
that tight. I guess, you know, the bedrooms
and bathrooms are small, but they're there and
it's literally a three-bedroom, you know,
apartment let's call it. One-story dwelling
and it's just got a small open kitchen living
space and since there is that significant
continuous use I think perhaps and it's only 5
percent, I don't really have a problem with
that. You know, technically, if my fellow
board members feel that an additional
renovation downstairs is appropriate, then,
you know, that's one thing, but it would only
be used, I think for her grandkids to play in
is what she basically said. It would be a
shame to kind of actually have to change, I
think, what is an interesting historic part of
this in that it was really designed for horses
and this particular time the stables are --
the stalls are kind of very nice.
MR. HAMM: They're all there, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the other
observation, of course, is that it's very much
in keeping right where it is with all the
other structures along that road. There's so
many of them that are really almost virtually
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
on the road and --
MR. HAMM: Right and you have a golf
course right across the street so it's not
intruding on anyone.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was actually in
the structure when we were doing the Hay
Harbor Club.
MR. HAMM: She mentioned that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, so I can
remember that.
MEMBER SIMON: One point for the record
so we know that this plan was, as I understand
it, pretty much the second choice of the owner
after the application for permission for that
as a second dwelling on the same property.
There the assumption was that the ownership
was --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sorry, Ken and I are
blabbing away. I apologize.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and the assumption
there was the present owners would use it I
think as Leslie referred to it for the family.
This is not legally relevant, it's as far as
you understand the change would just be a
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
matter of legalizing and improving rather than
changing patterns of ownership.
MR. FLAMM: That's correct, yeah, this is
-- this is an option they were forced into
because of the denial.
MEMBER SIMON: Our concern, of course, is
that since it will be a separate independent
property it is potentially resalable as a
single-dwelling unit, which is why we can't
treat it as simply an accessory minor cottage
on a property. So that's why we're here,
you're here before us.
MR. HAMM: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So it looks like we are
working toward getting something that will
satisfy possible different scenarios for the
future.
MR. HAMM: Right and we're asking this
time as opposed to last time, we're asking for
an area or area variances
variances, so --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
as opposed to use
Right.
MR. HAMM: -- the standard, obviously,
much less and the character of the
neighborhood, as I pointed out in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
memorandum, what we're doing here essentially
is drawing a line on papers that are filed
with the Town and the County to someone who
goes to the site it's there now. I mean what
you have is --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. H/LMM: In fact, I also point out
that, ironically, if the variance is denied,
you know, the owner still has enough land for
as of right to put a second dwelling there.
They could take the kitchen and the bathroom
out of the structure, use it as a garage and
for storage and build a substantial second
dwelling, which I don't think anybody wants.
So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yup.
MR. HAMM: And if you needed to make a
condition and any approval that we would
abandon this use, if a second dwelling is ever
built, that is absolutely what would happen
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MEMBER HORNING: Mr. Hamm, doesn't this
become the principle dwelling on the lot?
MR. HAMM: It does, but it could, if you
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
grant the variances, yes, it will be the
principle dwelling on the lot; however, at
some point, you know, 50 years from now some
other owner may say I want a bigger dwelling
to a conforming dwelling on this lot that
we're creating in which case they would have
to abandon the use of this as a principle
dwelling or for living quarters at all.
MEMBER HORNING: I think that is a
potential concern and what is the status of
the parking that was granted by a condition to
the Hay Harbor Club that is actually right
along side the road boundary line with that
building?
MR. HAMM: That I can't answer that. I
know when they purchased the property there
were some encroachments from Hay Harbor for
the parking for Hay Harbor.
MEMBER HORNING: Is there currently a
lease to Hay Harbor for the parking lot?
MR. HAMM: Not that I'm aware of, I mean
I can find out for you, but I'm not aware of
any.
MEMBER HORNING: If you would, please. I
mean the parking lot is there physically.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. HAMM: Right and it encroaches
slightly on to the Highland House property,
the parking gravel or whatever is there for
that, but that's most -- I think most of that
is in the street right of way.
MEMBER HORNING: knd a combination of the
street right of way and it apparently it goes
right up to the edge of the building on the
roadside.
MR. HAMM: And the Lawrences had to take
title subject to possible rights of Hay Harbor
and others to use that, we're aware of it from
the survey. As far as I know, there's no
formal arrangements with Hay Harbor for that,
so theoretically the Lawrences, I think Peter
had been a president of Hay Harbor at one
point, could say, you know, move or give them
the lease or they could say they have it
because of prescriptive easement that's been
used for a long enough period of time, but
there's no formal arrangement that I'm aware
of.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, again, because
there was with a previous owner a lease.
MR. HAMM: With Husband?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MR. MAMM: There was a lease?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think it was for
a dollar a year. She was -- one of the
criteria that we used in granting the May
Marbor Club was the issue of that parking,
okay, and we know that there was an
encroachment onto this property at that time
and that lady was very agreeable to continuing
anything that went on regarding that so that
it would allow that perpendicular parking and
MR. MAMM: And the Lawrences would be,
too, I'm sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, right.
MR. HAMM: It didn't bother -- when I
pointed out, I said there's a title issue
possible title issue here, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I do not believe,
Steve, that we were ever involved, excuse me
for cutting you off. That we were ever
involved in any formal agreement that we saw,
okay, we very simply said that agreement
probably should have been drawn and that --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
and I didn't remember the time limit aspect,
too, on it, but I'm just telling you that was
a real important decision based upon our
rebuilding of that club for the purpose of --
because of the amount of activity that occurs
during the summer months there on the back
golf course.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, it was to come
up, bring their parking requirements somewhat
up to code in terms of spaces and previously
people were parking haphazardly along that
side of the road and creating a safety factor
or a lack of safety there for pedestrians and
people walking to the beach, etc., so we were
trying to -- that condition was put into the
decision to address the parking concerns of
the site plan of the Hay Harbor Club. I
believe they got a lease arrangement with the
Husbands, with the previous owner, and the
parking is still there. I'm just wondering
what the status of it is.
MR. HAMM: If so, it was never disclosed
when the Lawrences purchased that although
Peter may well have been aware of that, but he
didn't mention it to me and the other
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
attorneys did not and it was not a matter of
public record.
CFAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It did not come up
in the title records?
MR. F~4M: It did not come up, no.
MEMBER HORNING: So the concern would be
that that they --
MR. HAMM: But it wouldn't necessarily,
anyway.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, the concern would
be that they somehow tore it all out and did
not have the arrangement that they currently
have with the Hay Harbor Club and make the
parking area go away and revert back to the
haphazard parking that was unsafe prior to the
creation of the parking lot.
MR. HAMM: Right, but I don't -- I don't
see what that has to do with the matter before
us. The --
MEMBER HORNING: Well, it does if it
becomes a principle dwelling on a separate lot
and there's no -- there's no legal reason to
have the parking there, it could disappear.
MR. HAMM: Well, that --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEMRINGER: First we have to
determine how big the encroachment is, okay,
that's number one. Okay, then I don't know if
the encroachment is the entire parking lot. I
got the impression it was a portion of it.
MR. HAMM: No, me too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It was a portion of
it.
MR. HAMM: A foot maybe or two.
CHAIRMAN GOEMRINGER: Yeah.
MR. HAMM: I may have a survey here if
you want me to look. I'm not sure I have that
survey in front of me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure, if you don't
mind.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's very interesting.
MEMBER SIMON: If there's no formal
arrangement then (inaudible) land.
MEMBER MORNING: Well,
disappears then they could
parking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it's only -- it's really,
then if it
(inaudible) the
Yeah, but I think
I think we've
determined only that a portion of the nose of
the automobile (inaudible). Okay, I think the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
issue came from in front of the front wheels
of the vehicles was really the only
encroachment.
MEMBER HORNING: Because the rest of it
is actually the Town right-of-way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HAMM: According to the survey, it's
not quite up to the building itself and it's
looks like 1/16th of an inch on the (inaudible)
scale.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's almost
nonexistent.
MR. HAMM: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Really de minimis. It's
a foot or less.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. HAMM: This is from some sort of
septic plan or (inaudible) they had on the
plan. The dotted line there is the edge of
gravel.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. FL~MM: And then the property line is
the bold line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HAMM: So it's that distance, about
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
1/16th.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As I told George
when you went to go get it, the issue
originally was a portion of the front of the
automobile as it was faced in, okay, and it
was that portion that was in front of the
front wheel of the automobile.
MEMBER HORNING: Here's a photo that I
took of it that I'm referring to. I haven't
entered that into the record or anything, but
maybe I would if you requested it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, there's the
encroachment of the gravel right there, that's
what Mrs. Husband (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Did you require that
as a condition for the Hay Harbor approval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And there was a --
they submitted a written --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We never saw the
document, she just said that she would allow
that to happen rather than continue --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
the edge of the gravel.
that shows (inaudible).
That dotted line is
George has a picture
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
deal.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah, alright.
No big
MR. HAMM: [Not at microphone.] I would
not even be here. I would not need a variance
if they took the kitchen and bathroom out of
this building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, sure.
MR. HAMM: I could keep that building and
I could -- my clients could build a
substantial residence so and that would happen
if -- maybe it might happen years from now, or
something, but as long as it stays in the
Lawrence family it's not going to happen.
MEMBER HORNING: I have no -- nothing
against that. I mean they have enough room to
do that, they have the lot. Why wouldn't they
do that?
MR. HAMM: We're here because they want
to preserve it.
MEMBER WEISM3~N: Keep it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: While you're up here
I'd like to ask you a question cause I might
want to show you this. This pertains to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
area and I just did a quick calculation and
the second floor is 39.875 feet.
MR. HAMM: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: By 22.79 feet in width
and I come up with 908 square feet.
MR. HAMM: Hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's exterior walls.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's exterior walls.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sometimes architects
calculate floor area by multiplying and adding
up the square footage room by room, but you
can legally, you legally can go with the
exterior wall footprint. I mean, you can
count --
MR. HAMM: Or living --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, sure. 24 and
36.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's length by width
because you may not need a variance.
MR. HAMM: May not need a variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's -- I come out,
well, you have 39 and 10-1/2 inches, which
equates to a decimal. It's 39.875, 22 and 9-
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
1/2 inches, which equates to 22.79.
Multiplied it's 908.75 square feet. So that's
something you might want to look at.
MR. HAMM: Maybe we can do the exterior
walls then. She was using, well I think the
architect was using maybe the landlord/tenant
definition of --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which is interior floor
area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Interior, yeah,
usable.
MR. HAMM: So how do I address that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll just leave it
open until you give us a call and we can close
the hearing subject to that if you want --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- or we can hold
the hearing open until the regularly scheduled
special meeting and close it then.
MEMBER HORNING: Steve, is there any
possibility of getting a letter of intent
let's say from the current owner stating that
they have no intentions of --
MR. HAMM: Absolutely.
MEMBER HORNING: Please, that would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
helpful.
MR. HAMM: That's why we're back here,
this is what they want to do as opposed to put
up a new foundation.
MEMBER HORNING: And how about the
Planning Board's role in this now with the
proposed subdivision it requires approval from
this applicant.
MR. HAMM: If you grant us a variance,
then we can go back to the Planning Board and
pursue that process.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. You don't need a
variance for nonconforming lot size because
you've got two conforming lots.
MR. FLAMM: Exactly, this is exactly what
we need.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
it in the beginning.
Which is why we denied
MR. HAMM: Right, we've just maybe
eliminated one variance and the only one we
need is for the setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HAMM: Not for lot area, not for lot
width or depth.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, sure.
MR. HAMM: You can see that from the site
plan.
MEMBER SIMON: The technicality that the
Planning Board is not going to turn something
down because of a setback.
MR. HAMM: No, in fact, I think they had
no (inaudible) at all.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, a Planning Board
member mentioned to me that the parking seemed
to not be on the site plan, which is why I'm
sort of bringing up the issue, and if you
could get a letter of intent from the owner
that the parking lot will remain there that
would help the Planning Board I believe also.
MR. FJ~MM: Well, your letter of intent
only covers two points.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. HAMM: The parking and the intent of
use to restore this building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The intent of use.
MEMBER HORNING: Yes. Right, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody else
like to be heard regarding this including the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
audience? One single young lady sitting in
the audience and it appears she's not raising
her hand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think she's a little
more local.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we're
going to close the hearing, ladies and
gentlemen, is that what your choice is?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
why not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
there's no reason
Close the hearing
pending the receipt of information regarding
the square footage of the existing, we'll
refer to it as dwelling, being substandard or
not, okay, which would then leave the only
variance, which would be setback and a letter
from, hopefully a letter from the present
owners indicating that they have no intentions
of eliminating the size of the parking lot
that presenting exists most of which is Town
right-of-way. Okay and I offer that as a
resolution.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6334 Maggi Travis
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance from Code Section
280-124, based on an application for a
building permit for an as-built (porch)
addition to a single-family dwelling, and the
Building Inspector's July 13, 2009 amended
Notice of Disapproval stating the new
construction is not permitted at less than the
code-required minimum rear yard setback of 35
feet, at 700 Brown Street (and along 7tn
Street), Greenport; CTM 48-3-18.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record, miss?
MS. TRAVIS: Maggi Travis.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning. So,
obviously, this porch --
MS. TRAVIS: It's not actually a porch
and the yellow notice said deck, but it's just
the covering.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two columns and an
attached roof over patio is basically what you
have with brick there, a walkway. Yeah, to
shelter from inclement weather, primarily.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Okay, so this was built and apparently no one
was aware that it needed a setback variance
from your -- you have two front yards, you're
obviously on a corner lot.
MS. TRAVIS: Right. I mean, I didn't
even think about a variance because I wasn't
thinking that it made the house any bigger,
you know, it didn't add to the square footage
of the house. It's not
really isn't any bigger,
supporting the roof.
-- the footprint
the columns are just
MEMBER WEISMA/q: Right.
MS. TRAVIS: It's not another room or --
it's just a cover over the outdoors.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: When was it built?
MS. TRAVIS: Last summer.
MEMBER HORNING: Last summer?
MS. TRAVIS: Summer, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: 2008 or --
MS. TRAVIS: Yes, uh --
MEMBER HORNING: -- or this past
MS. TRAVIS: No, this year.
MEMBER HORNING: 2009?
MS. TRAVIS: Yes. Yes.
summer?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, alright. And that
was Frank Ulandauer who was the architect on
that?
MS. TRAVIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so the Code
requires -- well, your existing rear yard
setback is 37 feet and this, you know, roof
let's say, roof structure reduced it to 28.9
feet according to the survey, it looks like.
You have a fence all the way around and the
height is perfectly legal and there's plenty
of side yard and there's plenty of space in
the rear. So now I understand why it was
build without a variance first.
Actually, a lot of the houses in the
neighborhood are extremely varied. Many of
them have nonconforming setbacks of all kinds
in that particular area. So the rear yard
that your structure, let's call it, the roof
structure is in, actually abuts the side yard
of your neighbor --
MS. TRAVIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
-- along Brown Street
and I think it's very minimal. It has very
little impact on anything other than to give
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
you a little bit of shelter and sun screening
and so on.
MS. TRAVIS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: At least we've cleared
up what the issue is. So I just want to make
sure that the Notice of Disapproval indicates
a 28.9 foot setback from those columns.
MS. TRAVIS: Okay.
CHAIR_MAN GOEHRINGER: How big is the
structure, 8 by what?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very small.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 8 by 16.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 8 by 16, okay.
MS. TRAVIS: I wanted it wide enough to
include the dog door.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MS. TRAVIS: So he can come in dry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we'll call it a
roofed open structure, it's not a porch.
Actually, we'll call it a portico, it's not
really a porch. Open portico structure. Any
objection to us saying that it should remain
exactly as it is? You have no intent of
enclosing it, turning it --
MS. TRAVIS: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
anything like that?
MR. TRAVIS: No,
-- into a mud room or
it's just really to --
so I have somewhere dry to wipe off the dog
before he goes into the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good plan. Okay, I have
no further questions.
MS. TRAVIS: Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: What is the occasion now
that you come before us with the so-called as-
built, how did you -- recite to us briefly how
that occurred that you made the appeal?
MS. TRAVIS: Oh, the reason that it was
an as-built application you're saying?
MEMBER HORNING: No, I mean did the
Building Department show up down there and
cite you for a violation?
MS. TRAVIS: Yes. Yes, they did.
MEMBER SIMON: There was no building
permit, the issue is not why there wasn't a
variance, but there was no permit.
MS. TP~AVIS: No, I mean this was my own
stupid fault. I had originally thinking about
putting just a canvas awning over it.
MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MS. TP~AVIS: And then one night the wind
was like {sound) and I live alone and I
thought I'm going to run downstairs and break
my neck trying to get the canvas secured. I
really need something more secure down there
and when I started thinking about the canvas I
knew I didn't need a permit for that and I
just didn't revisit the idea that if I'm
changing my mind about not doing canvas I
should go back and see if I need a permit.
MEMBER HORNING: So then you hired
somebody to --
MS. TRAVIS: I hired a builder to come
and do it.
MEMBER SIMON: You had architects, didn't
you, on this --
MS. TRAVIS: He was sort of retroactive,
because --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, I see. Okay.
MS. TRAVIS: -- we built it. I needed an
architect's plan then when I applied for the
permit.
MEMBER SIMON: I see so he was an
architect who --
MEMBER WEISMAN: He drew up the as-built.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: -- drew it as it was built
rather than propose what was to be built.
MS. TP~AVIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now I know how
Frank got involved (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, otherwise --
MEMBER WEISM3%N: Frank would not have let
this happen. He knows better.
MS. TRAVIS: No, I really heard from him
about --
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. TRAVIS:
It's hard to imagine.
-- that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I would imagine.
MEMBER SIMON: It's hard to imagine that
an architect would draw plans and then allow
you to go ahead without a building permit.
MS. TRAVIS: No, no. Frank would never
do that and he told me in no uncertain terms
what an idiot I was.
MEMBER SIMON: It's apparently -- oh, you
said it was only built last summer.
MS. TRAVIS: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It didn't take the Town
very long to figure out what the problem was.
MS. TP~AVIS: I guess he came by while
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
they were doing it.
up.
MEMBER SIMON:
It took one day to put
Yes, I see, but it was
finished by the time the stop work order came
into play so to speak.
MS. TRAVIS: Well, the Inspector came by
and he said, you can finish the day.
MEMBER SIMON: Ahh. Okay.
MS. TRAVIS: But don't come back
So they worked and finished the
tomorrow.
day.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, that's what's --
that's the background behind George's question
and I'm grateful for the elaboration.
MS. TRAVIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no further
comments. I thank you for the presentation.
I want you to go away thinking that we are
very nice people cause we are, okay --
MS. TRAVIS: I know that from past
experience.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you did a very
good job.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm glad you didn't see
fit to hire someone to represent you for this.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would not be
necessary.
MEMBER SIMON: It would not be necessary.
CHAIPdV~%N GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else would like to speak in favor or against
this? I have to ask that question, I see no
one else here.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6294 - P. Betancourt
CFIAI~ GOEHRINGER: The next appeal is
on behalf of Betancourt. It is Appeal #6294.
Mr. Strang is already at the podium. He
is Garrett Strang.
MR. STRANG: Thank you and good
afternoon.
Let me just make a few points, I think
it's pretty obvious, based on the last meeting
and the concerns that the Board had, we
revisited our application and our proposal,
sharpened our pencils a little bit and
(inaudible) submission that you presently have
in front of you. We've reduced the swimming
pool and pulled back the garage, thereby
reducing the relief requested for the front
yard setback somewhat. We scaled back the
overhang on the east side of the building,
which now provides a 25-foot side yard and
brings the total side yard setback into
compliance with the Code. So that relief is
now not required.
We've reduced the total lot coverage from
28.2 to 25.1. We've pulled back the second
floor addition in response to your concerns by
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
8 feet and the overhang by 3 feet, which
addresses the concerns with regard to the
loads on the bluff. We also have with respect
to that, which I'll submit in a moment, a
letter from a consulting engineer that assess
the structure, the loft and what we're
proposing and his determination is that the
proposal would have no impact, structural
impact on the bluff.
The last thing I just want to call your
attention to is we are proposing to reengineer
the northeast corner of the house in such a
way that the roof load will be handled with a
cantilevered condition thereby pulling the
point loads back further away from the edge of
the bluff and addressing that concern as well.
CHAIRMA/q GOEHRINGER: How long -- how
deep is that cantilever, is that the 3 feet
you're requesting?
MR. STRANG: Well, it's on a corner.
We're going to bring, rather than having the
total load on that corner, we're going to come
in I believe about 5 feet on the direction
away from the corner so that it'll help
address that particular concern the Board had.
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I'll submit an original and six copies of
the engineer's support.
I guess, at this point, that's enough
said on my part. Whatever questions the board
members have I'll be happy to address.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the -- this is
from the engineer?
MR. STRANG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll have a quick look
at this. Okay, this addresses impacts on the
bluff.
MR. STRANG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What investigation has
been done to assure us that
loads, even though reduced,
carried sufficiently by the
the structural
are going to be
existing first
floor and that the first floor is not going to
require major renovation?
MR. STRANG: Well, essentially the first
floor -- you mean as far as renovation to the
foundation of the first floor?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The first floor walls --
MR. STP~AiNG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- structure.
MR. STRANG: Are remaining. Remaining in
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
place where they are. The fact that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Exterior walls?
MR. STRANG: Exterior walls.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What about interior
walls?
MR. STRANG: Interior walls are
everything interior, obviously is further back
from the bluff so any loads with respect to we
had to reconfigure loads. We haven't done
total design of the building yet pending your
decision with regard to what we have in front
of us now. Moving our partitions, (inaudible)
partitions, whatever, the loads would remain
within the basement, if you will, or
crawlspace area of the existing house. So
again it would be brought back further from
the existing exterior wall. So the only
thing, the only load on the exterior wall
that's there is what's going to remain.
Everything else would be (inaudible) further
inside the building (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have, as I know
you can appreciate, many, many times before us
situations where the proposal was to do an
addition and then the house is demolished.
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MR. STRANG: Not the intent.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand it's not
the intention, neither was it I'm going to
assume and be charitable, was it the intent of
many other applicants before us; however, when
you start ripping into those walls you know
very well you find all kinds of things that
you may not have anticipated. I'm asking you
to insure us, reassure us and assure us that
that will not be the case here. That what is
there is going to be structurally feasible in
terms of remaining and that you are not going
to really wind up with an improved foundation
and building a brand new house.
You see one of the problems, Garrett, is
we don't have and I know you described why you
like to provide site plan in minimal
diagramatic architectural information, they're
really sort of block diagrams, but this Board
really makes evaluations on additions and
demolitions, additions and alterations or
demolition, based upon far more specific
architectural plans than what we are seeing
here. I believe, Jerry, for that reason,
asked at the last hearing for you to produce
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
some sort of physical model, something, that
would help this Board understand what you're
actually proposing and so you can't tell from
a block diagram what is as-built, what's
remaining, and what's going to be added
exactly in what way. It's just very important
that applications have more complete
information and I believe this Board is
floundering with the ability to really
understand what it is that your client intends
to do under your direction as the architect.
So I think that it would be very, very
helpful to have more specific information
about as-built and proposed in terms of
interior renovations, existing walls, and it's
not that expensive to remove a piece of
sheetrock to see what the existing conditions
of the studs might be. You know, to crawl
underneath and take a look.
As an architect you have the right
legally to provide a letter indicating what
your assessment of the structural condition of
the actual existing house is and what
alterations, not just to the foundation, but
to the actually interior or exterior walls
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
that are being proposed. So that the Board
has a much better understanding of the
complete project.
What is very clear is the changes that
you've made. You spelled it out in a letter,
I see it on the site plan. So I think we
would welcome additional information. This is
helpful in terms of the engineer's report on
the bluff and what you're proposing, but we
need something about the structure itself as
well and some more architectural information.
The other thing is can you tell me what
the distance is from the proposed pool to the
wrap-around bluff is? I don't believe it's
called out on the site plan, if it is I didn't
see it.
MR. STRANG: No, it isn't, but I can
probably scale it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you scale it for us
and see what that is?
MR. STRANG: It would help if I used the
right scale. From the closest corner of the
pool, which is in my opinion is the northeast
corner, to the edge of the bank as per the
site plan (inaudible), we're looking at about
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
66 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's helpful.
Okay, so I see what's --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Would that be top of
bank?
MR. STRA_NG: That's the top of the bank.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The top of bank.
MR. STPJkNG: That's the line at the top
of the bank, yes.
CHAIRMA/N GOEHRINGER: That's the pool
itself, not the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not the terrace. That's
at grade. That's at grade anyway.
MR. STRA/NG: The terrace is at grade.
CHAIR/W3kN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let's see what else
is -- I may just want to come back afterwards.
MR. STRANG: Just a point of information,
we can appreciate what you're sharing with
regard to the difficulty in assessing what
we're proposing. The rectangle that's shown
on the site plan that's basically 24 by 35,
which is not hatched at all, it has some
descriptive writing in, it but it's basically
24 by 35, that's the existing house which will
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remain and the majority --
MEMBER WEISMAN: What I want is
reassurance as to why it will remain, because
it's structurally sound and because we have
drawings that actually explain what
architecture is being added. I mean with
block diagrams, you know, there really is no
architecture there, it's just percentages of
square footage and height and so on. It's
very difficult for the Board cause we talked
about this not just in your situation, but in
others. It's difficult for the Board to
evaluate impact on the neighborhood when you
have no concept of what's really being
proposed in terms of what its visual outcome
is going to be.
MR. STRANG: I think the profile is
somewhat representative of what my client
would like to build and exclusive of
fenestration.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. There's no
fenestration or --
MR. STRANG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- sheathing materials
and there's no interior plans to show the
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relationship between the existing and the
proposed and so on. I think it would be very
helpful to this Board to have a little bit
more information. I don't recall, you know,
if I look at every single application we've
had all morning, every single proposal has had
a complete set of architectural drawings,
plans, sections, elevations, all of the things
that are necessary to really assess exactly
what's being proposed.
MR. STRANG: Okay, that being, you know,
obviously, that's their prerogative. With
what confidence that their design will meet
this Board's consideration and approval --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or they're prepared to
amend it.
MR. STRANG: -- or they're prepared to
incur the expense to amend it, but that's
their decision to make. If I understand
correctly a conceptual floor plan and
elevations would be what would be acceptable
to, by that I mean scale (inaudible) or
whatever drawings, floor plans and the
exterior elevations is what the Board would
like to see.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: When you say conceptual,
you're talking about the early stages of
design.
MR. STRANG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No design development.
I don't need working drawings, that's for
sure.
MR. STRANG: No, no. they're not, we're
talking about conception design. Just, my
client hasn't even gotten to the point yet
where he has a finite idea of how he wants
this to layout. So that would be the next
step that would have to be presented.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. STRANG: with that, obviously some
analysis of the structural aspect of the
existing building is fine as it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would certainly go
a long way --
MR. STRANG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- in helping this Board
come to some informed decision. I mean, the
whole thing is based upon the desire to be
responsible in our decisions based on an
informed judgment --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MR. STRANG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and without certain
information that judgment can become quite
faulty or misunderstood, misrepresented.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to make sure
that what we have before us is what's going to
happen.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not talking about
moving a door over 3 feet or anything like
that, but we need to understand scale, style,
existing, proposed and so on.
MR. STR~_NG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll leave it at that
for now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm wondering if the
applicant has considered planning on having
everything south of where it is now to stay
away from the bluff as much as possible. I
mean there is room to have the pool closer to
the Aquaview and all of the additions and the
house could certainly fit down in there, too,
and you wouldn't be impacting the bluff very
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much. I mean, had they -- do you know if they
had considered alternative plans like that at
all?
MR. STRANG: Well, we've added about 12
feet to the south of the existing house or
toward the pool side with the proposed
addition. This proposed garage that we're
showing comes out even further and in that ~L"
we've placed a pool. There's a lot of mature
landscaping in that circle, if you will,
that's the landscaped area in the front yard
and the existing driveway albeit having to be
altered somewhat, not much, is desired to be
kept so that we're not interfering too much
with the landscaping. Of course, obviously,
as we move closer to Aquaview Road the amount
of front yard relief that we need increases so
we're trying to balance everything there.
Again, we're trying to keep and work with
the existing home that's there and whatever
improvements we need to do make them toward
the roadside and up on the second floor. In
addressing the Board's concerns, obviously,
originally we were going to put the second
floor right on top of the first floor, but now
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
we've set that back an additional 8 feet. So
we're, again, trying to be sensitive and
aware, but still work with the house that's
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the end of Aquaview get?
How well used does
I mean certainly
people mozy on down there not realizing that
it's a private road, even though there are
signs and have to turn around anyway, I
suspect, either in your driveway or --
MR. BETANCOURT: In that cul-de-sac.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have to come to the
mike if you're going to --
MR. BETANCOURT: Oh, I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's okay. State your
name for us.
MR. BETANCOURT: Okay, hi. I'm Tim
Betancourt or Paul T. Betancourt as you might
know from the application and very few people
actually use the cul-de-sac, as far as I know.
My neighbor, who is across from me, and other
than that I don't, you know, we rarely see any
traffic or anything of that nature and as far
as I understand I think that's part of the
Association or it's private property anyway.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
I don't think it's part of Aquaview, in fact,
I think it's part of the Association.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's not part
of Aquaview. It must be an Association
situation.
MR. BETANCOURT: Right, yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you pay anything
to have it improved or any snow removal or
anything like that?
MR. BETANCOURT: No, I think they pay to
-- not that I know of. We have an annual fee
for the neighborhood and they clean up the
area and everything, but they don't -- there's
an easement further down that they recently
put a new fence in and so on and they maintain
the trees and everything, but that's about it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So essentially, if
it wasn't for your neighbor across the street,
you would have total exclusivity to that
access.
MR. BETANCOURT: Right.
CHAIRM3~g GOEHRINGER: Is that correct?
MR. BETANCOURT: Yeah. And if I, I'm not
sure if it's true, but I believe -- I'm not
sure how the ownership of the property in that
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
-- it may actually be part of the two
properties, I'm not sure how it's set up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You probably own to
half of it and he probably owns half.
MR. STRANG: I guess that would be
dependent on the way the deed was described.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct.
MR. STRANG: The survey does show a
distinct property line and a -- it doesn't say
what the width of the right-of-way is, but
they call -- Aguaview is referred to as a
private road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. STRANG: But also I don't know if the
adjacent neighbor to the east can lay claim to
having access over that road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think so,
no.
MR. STRANG: Since it does abut the
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the tax map it
shows it 50 feet and of course --
MR. STRANG: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- where does your
property line actually start, how far into the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
driveway area, do you know?
MR. BETANCOURT: I don't think I could
answer that, I'm not sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BETANCOURT: There is a marker. I
believe it's probably about in the middle.
So
CEAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRANG: If the survey is accurate, I
would say approximately 10 feet from the edge
of the pavement to the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRANG: If the survey shows the
landscaped area accurately, there'd be no
reason to think otherwise.
MR. BETANCOURT: In the summer I might
see two or three stray cars that drive in and
make a u-turn or something. It's very, very
rare. Even the beach itself it's very rare
there's not much traffic.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BETANCOURT: I don't know if it's
relevant or not, I'd just like to point one
thing out. I note that the existing house
does have a second floor now and the load is
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
there and it's called an attic or whatever,
but the weight and the load is there. What
we're asking to do is take that out and remove
it and move the load of the second level back
8 feet. So in a way, you know, we're taking
away all of the concerns about the load as
you're close to the bluff so that -- and on
the corner where we were most concerned we
were trying to cantilever in order to get any
weight off of that corner, which of course was
your concern from last time.
So there is a second floor now and that
wouldn't be there any longer on that level.
You know, it would just maybe it would just be
pulled back 8 feet. So in a way we are moving
the house back 8 feet --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BETANCOURT: -- because there is a
second level now and it does put a, you know,
there is weight from that second level that
pushes toward that area and it wouldn't be
there any longer. I would say wherever we add
the new structure we would have to make it
stronger in order to replace the second level,
but --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, this is a very
good example of the kind of architectural
information that I was trying to get at
earlier because it will benefit you and this
Board to see what is there now more
specifically, other than site inspection,
which we've all done, and site plan doesn't
tell you any of that stuff. I mean it's just
a call out. If we understand that there is
some live load, even though it's attic space,
you're still walking in it, there and you're
going to step it back 8 feet, you know, then
that's what I mean by what is remaining and
what is being removed.
MR. STRANG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For example you said the
exterior walls are remaining, but I can see on
one side, you know, where you're proposing a
one-story addition that the storage thing and
whatever, now on the other side it's not
totally clear how that works with the floor
plan. Are you going to leave those exterior
walls as they are or are they going to be
modified when that portion of the addition
gets added on? I can't tell without a floor
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second level and if
MEMBER WEISMAN:
welcome.
plan.
MR. STRANG: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You see what I'm saying?
So when you tell me the exterior walls are
staying, if I wrote a decision that says draft
it's described no demolition of existing
exterior wall shall take place and then you
find you have to because the floor plan
doesn't work, and you're making a different
exterior wall, a new one, it's all backfiring
and I want to avoid that for you to make sure
that we're all on the same page.
MR. STRANG: On the original drawing for
the house though that does show that there's a
that would be useful --
As-built are always
MR. STR~_NG: Alright, what we have is we
have the original drawings --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you don't have to do
that. If you have them, you can submit the
as-builts and then show as proposed.
MR. STRA/~G: Right. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And again that's the
kind of structural analysis that would be very
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
helpful, too, because if you can go around and
say these walls can definitely stay, these
walls are in question, you know, you don't
have to be absolutely certain, but then we
don't get a stop work order on it. You know,
because suddenly something is torn down that
wasn't expected. We have to be very clear
with the Building Department in writing this
variance or these variances.
MEMBER HORNING: Could you summarize for
us again, if you haven't already, your
concerns, if any, about the coastal erosion,
like from a northeasterly storm or something
like that? It's close there on that one
corner.
MR. BETANCOURT: Well, there's pretty
good vegetation on the bluff. I have been
there through -- I don't think I've ever been
there during a hurricane, although I have been
-- I have a brother who owned a property in
Orient and I've had the experience of being on
the bluff and he was there when there was a
very strong, in fact, a hurricane. So I've
been -- the wind does blow very strongly
there. My -- and you know every now and then
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I have a shingle off the roof or whatever, but
it's held up very well. I haven't really had
any problems. The trees have held up to this
-- we've had a couple of very bad storms this
year where trees were down. I've never had
any trees down or anything like that. I think
in some ways because it doesn't -- maybe the
angle or whatever of the bluff and how it
sticks out or something, it seems to have some
protection. So --
MEMBER HORNING: You're not concerned
about potential erosion?
MR. BETANCOURT: I'm mostly concerned
about erosion due to the deer actually because
the deer are always, you know, there are more
and more deer and I try to -- I do manage the
bluff very well, you know, if I see any
traffic and the deer are moving I always put
grass seed down to sort of stabilize it. So
it's been very stable, but it is a concern,
but it is, as the engineer pointed out that
did the letter for us, he pointed out that the
area that would be steepest and the most
concern is further away from the house, it's
further west of the house. It's where the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
staircase would be in the area that's where
the point is that what we've discussed and
seems to be of greatest concern it tapers down
there. It doesn't really, it's not really
that steep. It drops down and it tapers down
again. So it's not as -- I don't think it's
as much of a concern in that -- on the
northeast corner as it might be on the
southeast corner. No, the --
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. BETANCOURT:
sorry.
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. BETANCOURT:
Northwest.
Northwest corner, I'm
Thank you.
Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Only emphasize the point I
don't have the skill or the competence to
assess more detailed architectural plans, but
I appreciate their value. What I am in need
of, I echo this, is reassurance that what will
be said to remain will remain and to have some
kind of further evidence that that is the case
because that's -- we have repeatedly, as
Leslie said, run into problems when people
came in to unanticipated problems in the
structure once you start trying to renovate.
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So I would applaud the suggestion that you
take further steps along that line to make it
easier for us and give us more confidence in
what we decide.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
sorry, you were about
Can you also -- I'm
to say something.
MR. STRANG: I just wanted to comment
with respect to that. In this particular case
then, and any other as a generic statement, if
you have an existing exterior wall that's
there and in doing the alteration work you
find that you have to replace some of the
structure it's still in kind, in place, so to
speak --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MR. STRANG: It's there, so it's not
going to exacerbate a condition --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I wouldn't think so, but
again this is directly -- each application
needs to be somewhat specific. Most -- just
to finish in terms of the structural analysis
of the existing dwelling that you're going to
provide, could you also please address the
existing foundation, any remediation that
might need to take place, any additional
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
foundation work for the addition that you're
proposing so that we have that information as
well.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a case now that
was supposed to be property -- the existing
dwelling was going to be jacked up, a couple
of courses of block were going to be replaced,
it was going to be put right back down in
place and in kind and the house is gone. We
have a hole in the ground. Okay, they're
coming back before us and these are the things
we'd really like to avoid.
MR. BETANCOURT:
I would as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I can appreciate that.
I'm sure you would like
to avoid it, so you know this is not meant to
be punitive in any way, but rather collegial
in making sure that we are able to accomplish,
you know, what our -- a certain amount of
relief so that you can build what you want,
but within responsible parameters to make sure
that the Building Department is not going to
then wind up sending it back here.
MR. STP~ANG: Right. Understood.
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MEMBER WEISM~2N: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else would
like to speak for or against this application?
Garrett, what's the timeliness in doing
this for us?
MR. STRANG: I would kind of defer to you
cause I don't know what you want (inaudible)
CHAIPJ~32q GOEHRINGER: Okay, good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we'll adjourn subject
to receipt of this and we'll have a -- you
don't want to adjourn, want to just hold it
open, I think.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we'll hold it
open. Yeah, we'll adjourn it to the February
-- we'll adjourn it to the February meeting,
whenever that is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then you can submit all
this stuff before then.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and hopefully
we'll get this all rectified so you can start
this job in the early spring, hopefully, and
there'll be no problems. Okay.
We're going to adjourn this to the
February meeting and we're waiting for
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approval on all the meeting dates and we'll
let you know what that meeting date is. It
will probably be around 1 p.m. in the
afternoon as this one is and -- first one
after lunch -- and I offer that as a
resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
HEARING #6318 - M. and D. Sokol
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last appeal of
the day is prior appeal #6318 Sokol and that's
Leslie's also.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One second, Pat.
MRS. MOORE: Since you're writing the
decision do you want the original to look at
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't care. Well, the
original should go to Lucille.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'll have a look
and pass it down. Give me a copy also,
please.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll keep the copy and
I'll give this to Lucille for the file.
MRS. MOORE: Since we are continuing,
today I do have Mark Sokol who is the property
owner with me. He comes in from Chicago.
What I have started with, in the interim,
you asked for an updated survey, which we
provided to you and submitted it to the file.
That survey is last dated October 15, 2009
that was prepared by Nate Corwin Land
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Surveyor. So you have that in your file
already. You should have in your file, and if
not I have another copy of the letter from
Cedar Beach Park Association, which we
(inaudible) last time. Cedar Beach Park
Association (inaudible) to the location of the
fence and supports our application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do need another
copy of that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'd like a copy of
that.
MRS. MOORE: Just a moment. The original
is in the file.
They have communicated with us since and
they are continuing to be in support of the
application. They were -- they were given
notice of this hearing as well.
Cedar Beach Point Road and Lakeside Drive
are both private roads. Your question at the
time of the last hearing was the width of the
roads and I actually submitted the Cedar Beach
Park maps, which show the width of the road
being 50 feet on both sides of this property
and there are some roads in the old Cedar
Beach community which are narrower, less than
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
50 feet, but they seem to be connecting roads
rather than the main roads, but I have that
map. It's already been submitted. I don't
have another set of copies cause I did submit
7 or 8 of those.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're talking about
this one, Pat? The two-piece --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, two pieces --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just wanted to make
sure.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's the filed map.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I can't find the
applicant's property on this. I think it's
the Xerox crease.
MRS. MOORE: Oh.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
it either.
Oh no, no, no. It's --
Yeah, I couldn't find
MRS. MOORE: You know what, let me just
I can't find it. You're
double check.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
going to check yours.
MRS. MOORE: Sorry,
highlights just for you,
come in highlighted.
I usually make
but I guess it didn't
These are the old lot numbers,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's 83 or 84.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I thought.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Where is that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's right there. Here,
but I don't know. I can't --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe, that's why I'm
asking then because I'm not clear from this
cause the numbers are different than the --
just to make matters more complicated.
MRS. MOORE: Let's see,
say it. So, yeah, it's lot
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
the survey should
80 and --
and I don't see
that on here. Where are we? See that's what
I was looking for based on what you submitted
and I don't see 80, that's why I think it's in
the crease.
See there's 81 on here, Pat.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what?
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's 81 over here and
I would assume 80 is next to it.
MRS. MOORE: It's on the crease, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I said you're
caught in the crease.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Okay, sorry about that. It
is on the crease.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I thought.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, figures.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so --
MRS. MOORE: Let me see if I have a
better print.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Could we look at that
for a second?
MRS. MOORE: There's 81 and then there's
MRS. MOORE: 80,
another --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
section.
79, I'll bring you
Oh, just Xerox that
MRS. MOORE: Here, right here.
MEMBER WEISMA/q: Alright, that's what I
figured.
MRS. MOORE: It was done on the ledger
size. When it got copied and that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's this one and
MRS. MOORE: There are two lots.
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80.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and I couldn't
find 80. I assume based on 78 being there the
next piece that it had to be in between 81 --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's two lots, right?
MRS. MOORE: Two lots, correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So this is the corner
that the Trustees are, you know, looking at
and this is the inlet where the dock is.
MRS. MOORE: That's where the dock is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right in this corner.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's two lots?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two lots, 80 and 79.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's two lots.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I thought there were
three parcels in that little triangle.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. Okay, so can you
give that to us?
MRS. MOORE: Sure, not a problem.
You can see that Lakeside Drive and Cedar
Point Drive East are both 50-foot roads,
that's the whole purpose of this exercise.
Okay, those are the questions that were
posed to us at the last hearing. What I've
also done is the photographs that I gave you
you can see on the top photograph, these are
the photograph that we had in addition to the
ones that are already in your file. On the
top property, if you can see that there are
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two holly trees there, they're probably the
most obvious problem with the deer population.
I put a little line about the height of a deer
or how high a deer can stretch all of the
vegetation has been eaten away. You can see
it's very, I mean it's unusual that the holly
tree is pretty tough stuff, but you have the
points that's above this that hasn't been
affected, but then you have all the lower
portion that's been eaten.
The middle photograph I show on the
street side you have the 4-foot fence that's
where now the survey clarifies for you there
is an existing 4-foot fence on the outside.
We'll talk about outside on the roadside
versus inside on the property owner's side,
there's a 4-foot fence. That 4-foot fence and
the hedgerow, which the hedgerow is about 10
feet or so in height, 12 feet in height, that
is along the landscape area between the
property line and the paved road. So that is
where there is one fence there and you have
testimony from the last hearing that was the
first attempt to try to preserve the property
was with a 4-foot fence and the arborvitae,
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that still didn't help.
So that's when the deer fence was placed
on the inside of the arborvitae which can't be
seen from the road from either Lakeside Drive
or Cedar Point Drive East. That was previous
to the updated survey. My client, his mother-
in-law actually helped draw it in, but this
has now officially been drawn in by the
surveyor and you can see the identifier this
is wire fence when it says wire fence that's
the 4-foot fence. Then there's the hedgerow
which is the other green and then the deer
fence again on the inside of the property and
then the last photograph also that shows you
where the 4-foot fence is. So I have multiple
pictures of the 4-foot fence.
What we have submitted to the Board is a
request for variance for the height of the
fence. The location of the fence isn't an
issue in the Notice of Disapproval. It is
private property and, therefore, the location
of the fence, if it's acceptable by the
Association, the Building Department doesn't
direct you to remove -- call it encroachment
or not encroachment, it is in the area of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
right-of-way of the road right-of-way, but
it's also maintained exclusively by each
property owner. Each property owner has to
maintain their own front yard road frontage,
be it through landscaping or fencing or
anything, that is their responsibility.
I'd also point out in the survey --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible)?
MRS. MOORE: -- you see that there are
water meters that are on the outside beyond
the fence line so that the Water Authority
when they came through and put the lines, the
water meters are also outside of the
parameters of the property line and that's
very common with private roads. Everybody
controls, even the public roads, town roads
most people landscape and improve up to the
travel portion, paved portion of the road. So
now we deal with this particular deer fencing
again on the inside of the hedgerow. The
hedgerow is not an issue, that stays, and we
have a 4-foot fence that's not before the
Board and that stays. So we're really just
dealing with the extension, the height of the
fence on the interior portion.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Also in reviewing older surveys -- my
client purchased the property in 2006. As far
back as 1996 there was, there is and was an
existing split rail fence on the east side of
the property. That's the Adler property line.
That split rail fence has been there, it
remains and there's no plan to do anything
with it. That -- I think that the Adlers had
a concern about that. They think -- I don't
know what they were thinking, but I can
clarify for them that split rail fence is not
what's being proposed to be increased, it's
the deer fencing that's part of the hedgerow.
Again, there were arborvitae on the west
side that's shown as Moskowitz, that
arborvitae has been there since again '96 and
there were -- there was split rail fence and
stockade fence along Cedar Beach Drive East.
That split rail fence shows on the survey that
was submitted to you that was dated back in --
the 2001 survey that was originally submitted
to you and is in your file -- that shows prior
to this updated survey the split rail fence
that was there. That split rail fence was
replaced with 4-foot fence along the Cedar
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Point Drive East property. Again, that is not
the subject of this variance, but it's giving
you a history of the improvements along this
property.
I think that pretty much identifies all
of the activity here and we're here to try to
answer questions more than anything else since
you now have the existing conditions survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pat, when did the deer
fencing go up?
MRS. MOORE: About within the last year,
I would say. The last year.
MEMBER WEISM3LN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: And again that was the third
attempt to control the deer population.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, I understand and
this letter from the Cedar Beach Park
Association is dated June 9, 2009.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So is it -- was the
fencing put up prior --
MRS. MOORE: Oh yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Prior to discussion with
the Association and approval.
MRS. MOORE: That's a good question.
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Okay, Mr. and Mrs. Sokol's in-laws are here as
well and they live in the Association as well
MEMBER WEISMAN: They were here before.
MRS. MOORE: They were here before. They
testified here before and they were the
contact people with the Association. So that
was, verbally, it was they consulted with the
Association, there was no objection and we
asked for a letter when we had to submit the
variance. I knew that you would be asking for
something in writing not just verbal and at
that time they provided that letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
caution everybody, we have to stop in about
two minutes to change the tape.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So at the time to see
how this went, did your client proactively go
into the Association and request that this be
permitted or was it discovered after the fact
that indeed this was on the Association's
property and not private property and,
therefore, would need permission? I'm just
trying to establish the chain of events here.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know that anybody
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really made issues of where structures or
hedgerow because again the fence was already
- there was a fence on the property in --
beyond the property line in the Association
property. There was a hedge already so this
was deer fencing coming later in time behind
everything. So these, you know, this would
have been the third activity and the
Association again never had an issue because
other properties have landscaping, fencing,
hedgerow, whatever.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, what else? You
indicated that the homeowners are responsible
for the maintenance of their own frontages.
There's two in this case, is that described in
C&R with the Association.
MRS. MOORE: I don't believe there are
any formal Association covenants. I don't
know that it speaks in terms of maintenance of
anything.
Jenny Gould is here so I'm sure she'll --
okay, so she might have that information.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, she'll have that
information.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
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MRS. MOORE: Are there any covenants, I'm
not aware of any. I would have researched
that as part of the application cause you
generally ask if any -- there are any
covenants on the property. I'm not aware of
any.
With respect to the road, that -- there
was actually some litigation started a while
ago regarding assessments against property
owners who are supposed to be contributing to
road improvements. We actually just recently
and I represent, I actually did the work for
the Association with respect to that limited
issue on the private roads. We found through
a title search that there were -- that the
original developers of this Association, their
spouses ended up owners of the road and we
ultimately got a hold of a particular -- of
one spouse and we just recently got a deed
from that spouse granting both Lakeshore Drive
and Cedar Beach Drive title. The interest,
whatever interest that they had, title to the
road. So there is clear title. It's always
been, and this is a matter of law, when an
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
association is created that they have a right
to maintain the roads and maintain -- it's
really the issue of the maintenance of the
road and the resurfacing that took place maybe
5 or 10 years ago at this time there was
resurfacing the Water Authority came through
to put in public water throughout all that
area and at that time we started pursuing
finding the rightful title owner. So we, in
fact, it's already be recorded I believe, but
we could always give you a copy of the deed on
behalf of the Association, I have no objection
to that, that they are, in fact, the title
owner. We have that, but there's never been
any doubt that the Association are in charge
of maintenance of the road.
C~AIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As I said to you,
this brought up a very interesting case
situation at the last meeting and, of course,
Jen brought up some interesting point, but --
of course, I'm a layperson, I have
jurisdiction of 2,000 roads in Suffolk County,
but fortunately most of the ones in the town
we sell at public auction. Needless to say, I
don't know what the jurisdiction of the Zoning
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Board is regarding those particular fences and
those particular encroachments outside of the
individual property owner's property line.
That's, you know, I'm telling you from the
heart this is not meant to be a sarcastic or
MRS. MOORE: No, no. And from what I can
tell your -- that's why I say the variance is
limited to the Notice of Disapproval that's
what we're appealing and the Notice of
Disapproval just speaks in terms of the height
of the fence. I've done other applications
here where you have two properties where you
have zero lot line a structure that's
connecting between two and you end up with
common applications by the two property
owners. In this case we have an Association
that is the owner of the road, but they don't
have an obligation to maintain any structures
that the private property owners have, it's
purely for passable, you know, to keep it
passable and resurface on a periodic basis.
That is again why I had the consent of the
Association to have the fence here, but I'm
not asking the Board to give me a variance for
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the location of the structure. I'm asking
merely for the height of the structure. We're
permitted to have a 4-foot fence. That would
as not even be before this Board, because the
Town doesn't enforce private covenants or
private agreements between parties. So again,
my only application before the Board is the
height.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, I think you're
misunderstanding what the Chairman is saying
though. I mean, as a threshold question
before he can even consider the variance, does
the Board have jurisdiction when it's not on
the property.
MRS. MOORE: So it's -- I understand -- I
do understand --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on here's part of
the dilemma. If the Association had applied
jointly with property owner as the owner of
the road for this relief, it would have been
far stronger and far clearer because then
ownership is established, alright. It's not
about who maintains it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a matter of whether
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
or not we legally can grant any kind of
variance on property that does not belong to
the applicant.
MRS. MOORE: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Even if they support it.
MRS. MOORE: I mean if you want me to go
back to the Association and submit an
application on their behalf, I think we have
the support of the Association. They're
willing to do whatever --
MEMBER SIMON: I think that you would
need to because --
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
MEMBER SIMON: -- you can only represent
your client and if a client's fence is not on
the client's property, you're not representing
the right client.
MRS. MOORE: Right. I hesitate to go
through that whole exercise if the Board says
I don't care what you do we're not going to
approve it. I'd rather get some kind of, I
know it's not -- I don't want a pre-submission
analysis, but in a sense just tell me if
you're not in support of a deer fence, you
know, it's a lot of expense for my client to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
do the work for the Association because the
Association, obviously, shouldn't bear the
cost of the application. So it's going to be
our work to submit it for the Association and
the Association is making a separate
application.
MEMBER SIMON: You know as an attorney
that you have to get your ducks in a row
before you get to a hearing and not after.
Don't tell us -- you're asking us to give you
a decision --
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: -- so that you really
should have had them apply.
MRS. MOORE: I'm merely asking that if
the Board is strenuously opposed to deer
fencing, then why go through this --
MEMBER SIMON: We don't have the right to
say anything binding on that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON:
a 3-2 vote one way,
don't know.
We have a -- there may be
it may be 5-0 one way, we
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'm merely asked if
you say no, sorry, we can't do that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At present, under
the confines of the Notice of Disapproval we
are dealing with two particular areas at this
time and one is the property to the west and
one is the property to the east.
MRS. MOORE: But one is a front yard and
the other is a side yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two front yards and two
side yards.
MRS. MOORE: The side yards clearly are
within your jurisdiction and within our
property limits.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm
saying.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. So with respect to
going beyond our property line, then I -- give
me five minutes --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not going to help
you very much to have deer fencing on the side
yards and not in the two front yards.
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean that's not rocket
science.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There'd be no point in
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
granting a variance in the side yard.
C~tAIRSU~N GOEHRINGER: Before you go out,
Ms. Gould, how much time do you need to
present?
MS. GOULD: 5 minutes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 5 minutes. Okay.
So we'll take a recess for 4 minutes or so.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because she wants
to talk to her client.
MEMBER WEISM3%N: Why don't we let Jen
present first?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll
present first, that's fine with me.
MS. GOULD: Jennifer Gould appearing for
the next door neighbor, Fred Adler.
There is proceedings (inaudible) by a
Notice of Disapproval; however, I would submit
that the Building Department probably thought
that the deer fence was on the applicant's
property when they did that Notice of
Disapproval because the survey was unclear,
which is why you asked for a better survey.
So I don't think that the Building Department
has jurisdiction to grant a Notice of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
Disapproval other than to say we don't have
jurisdiction because it's not on your property
anyway so why would we give you a building
permit to put a fence in the middle of a road
on a filed subdivision map. Okay, so that's
the first thing go back there. The Building
Department really probably didn't understand
as many of us didn't understand where this
fence was located.
The second issue is ownership of the
road. Pat says that the Association consents,
they sent a letter and everything. I asked
(inaudible) two weeks ago to do a title search
and it took them that entire time to do it.
Now, I don't have a copy for you, but I can
make one I just made one for the Board. They
went back to when the subdivision was actually
filed. I said I want to know who owns this
road because I had a feeling like many of the
older subdivisions, yes, the maps get filed
but no formal Homeowner's Association is ever
created and that's the search that I got
yesterday at 5:00, hand delivered. No, there
is no -- this is what it says, no dedication
of streets found on record. No declaration of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
deed found establishing a Homeowner's
Association. Area zone maps showing a
community beach and tennis courts and
playgrounds appear to be owned by individuals.
What it says about the streets in the
individual deeds and I had them trace, of
course, my client's deed is, you know, you had
rights to the middle of the road, but all
those rights are subject to everybody else's
ingress and egress. So you can't go putting
deer fences in the middle of the road because
even though you might have the right to
manicure as you say, if you are blocking that
road from access and we have a 50-foot road
here that's only cleared 8 feet. So you know,
there's all this talk like buzzing around
about adverse possession, well, I don't think
you can take adverse possession of a road on a
filed map. In fact, New York property law has
a specific proceeding for it, it's 335 Section
3 of the real property law, which I have here
and many times when you have a filed
subdivision map, there are paper streets
within that subdivision that are not used and
if somebody, a property owner, wants to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
abandon they can bring this proceeding and it
goes to the Assessor and they go through all
this stuff with the County Clerk and you can
file the map, but this section of the statute
is very clear. It's -- the portion of the
road that you want to abandon is subject to
somebody else's right to pass and repass you
cannot do it and the fact is there's a house
here. My client's house is at the end of this
street and they need this road to pass and
repass. We took a photograph and I have one
other copy, I don't have (inaudible), but I'll
give you to look at this right-of-way and how
-- for emergency vehicles this is not a good
thing. Here's the title search.
(Inaudible) do have the jurisdiction to
even hear this. If the Building Department
knew that this they wouldn't even give them
the Notice of Disapproval, they'd say you
don't own the property you can't put a fence
here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, one way to
possibly address this is to ask for a -- to go
back to the Building Department with the
updated survey and ask to see what they would
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
do with the Notice of Disapproval.
MRS. MOORE: If they don't issue the
Notice of Disapproval I don't need a variance
from the Board because the reason that we are
before the Board is because --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The height.
MRS. MOORE: -- of the appeal of the
Notice of Disapproval. So what you're saying
is if the Building Department doesn't issue
the Notice of Disapproval on a fence then
we're not here.
I think they would be issuing the Notice
of Disapproval for is the height of the fence
mainly and that's what I saying coming back to
the Board with is that we are only addressing
a height of the fence. The Building
Department does not make a determination of
the placement of structures and it's --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible) Code Enforcement
office to go out there and say this is deer
fence and hedge are impeding emergency access.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you know, you
bring another interesting case situation, Ms.
Gould, and this is the interesting case and
again remember I, no law degree, I have never
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
attempted to practice law anywhere because I
just don't do it. If there is a matter of
fact regardless of what the right-of-way is
that this particular group of people chose to
leave this road at this point at 8, 9, or 10-
feet wide, cause it's actually wider than
that, I mean it may not be paved any more than
that based upon your right-of-way -- your
measurement of it, which I'm not questioning
in any way, the remainder portion of it may be
within the confines of individual property
owners to maintain as in the case of Mr.
Sokol's lawn, which exists a little bit --
which I suspect he maintains, alright, because
it looks like it's cut. It actually looks
pretty nice, okay, when you look at it. We
looked at the pictures of it.
So now we have to legally discuss the
issue of the letter of the ~Property Owner's
Association" and their interpretation of what
they think they have jurisdiction over and
that's the issue. We run into this problem
every time with every one of these little boat
marinas, okay, this is a very similar type of
situation except that we know the Trustees own
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
the water underneath, okay, but the ability of
the ~Association" has the right to float docks
or place piles in the ground to hold their
docks in place, okay, and so would be the case
in this particular situation.
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
CHAIRIW3~ GOEHRINGER: But we don't --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now let's go back
to the whole situation and I'm going to leave
this thought at this point. I don't know how
long these lovely nice people sitting in front
of you lived in this area right here, but
there was a point when you made a right turn
at the general lane that that road was in such
abominable condition that you couldn't do any
more than 2 miles an hour on that road for two
reasons. Number one, your teeth would chatter
and number two, you would destroy your car.
Okay, at what point and who did the actual
improvements on that road? Now Ms. Moore
mentioned to us, yeah, Ms. Moore said to us,
okay, that Suffolk County Water Authority came
in, which only makes sense it's usually the
reverse of that, okay, the road is already
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
done and they just tear the road up and they
just do patches as some of the roads are in
Mattituck.
MRS. MOORE: That's precisely what
happened here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's
precisely what happened and then the
Association or a group of individuals, okay,
so to speak, repaved the majority of the roads
in the general vicinity including that road
that comes in, okay, you know, where the
general (inaudible) used to be and your
statement is does that give them any right to
say that they're
you're saying?
MS. GOULD:
an Association; is that what
I'm saying that for the
(inaudible) the Association consents to that
location is like saying a little group make up
the Association consent and that's all fine
and good. I don't think it should have any
sway before this Board because back to the
statute even if that Association wanted and
this Association has tried it before to
abandon certain roads that they (inaudible)
roads that people use (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course. Of
course.
MS. GOULD: That's what the point is
here. This thing is blocking. It needs to be
pulled back onto their property rather than
being in the middle of the roadway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in the --
MRS. MOORE: But the only thing that
we're really talking about is the deer fence,
not the shrubs and not the 4-foot fence
because those are the --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: The Zoning Board is not
being asked to address the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to address
-- you can talk to each other,
have to be --
MRS. MOORE: Let me just
but they all
clarify
something. There was some litigation. The
Association was formed. Whether or not the
title search would be determinative of whether
the Association has legal authority over these
roads or not, I don't think a title company
can make that determination. But secondly,
there was an Association that was formed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: The Association actually
sued property owners for each house was
assessed $800.00 per lot for the resurfacing
of the road because, as you said, the road
became impassable and they -- and each home
here was assessed $800.00. The Adlers were
assessed $800.00 and they never paid because
they took the position that they don't have a
legal obligation to pay. That was their
position, that has nothing --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay --
MRS. MOORE: -- but in any case the
Association did pursue litigation and claims
against title companies for property that was
sold that did not call to verify whether an
association was in place and whether there
were assessments. So that process did take
place. Secondly, we did do a search and we
did through going back as far as the
developers, original developers, as I said we
found the title owners that are the best
owners of record that we could find and we
actually got a deed to, in a sense, confirm
the fact that the Association who has been
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
maintaining the roads taking (inaudible)
control and essentially monitoring these
roads. They now have a secondary legal
authority by deed, which would have been a
quick claim deed for whatever interest that
this developer has, we now, the Association
has title ownership. Now whether or not the
title company would have picked that up,
probably not because it was recorded in the
last month or two and the title company --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want to ask one
question. Just one question, okay, and that
is what legal device did they use to form this
Association and that's --
MRS. MOORE: I don't -- I can't remember
and I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the key to
the whole issue.
MEMBER SIMON: You can go back to the
lawsuit. Was this an actual Association that
was a party to that lawsuit or was it a group
of people who called themselves that for the
sake of that lawsuit?
MRS. MOORE: I'd have to go back and look
at the complaint, but I believe it was they
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
called themselves an association and they
actually --
MEMBER SIMON: That's important. Here's
what I'm getting at is there are two possible
reasons why the title search didn't turn this
up. One is that if there is a legal
Association it just didn't happen to cross
their path and the other is that there isn't
any, it's a myth, and that's the problem that
we're running up against right now.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: And we'd like to get
clarity on this and if you're right about it
being a legitimate Association then research
should turn that up someplace.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'll go back to that
litigation and pull it up.
MS. GOULD: The Adlers haven't been sued
for assessments.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, were they sued?
MRS. MOORE:
MS. GOULD:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
against them?
My memory is that they were.
They were parties --
Yeah.
Was there a judgment
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I don't know, I have to
look.
C~IAIRM3~N GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the issue
is we continue this hearing. You're going to
check on this for us on this. We're going to
review the title search. We're going to give
the title search to counsel and we continue
the very interesting case of deer fences.
MRS. MOORE: Here's the thing. My client
made a valid point, he said that if the --
that we'll continue this dialogue regarding
the fence beyond the property line, but we
have -- the fence within the property line
that if the Board says no to the 8-foot fences
on the side, which are not an issue here as
far as, you know, the Board's jurisdiction to
act on that application, we'll move forward,
but if the Board is going to say no, again,
we're not going to approve the fence on the
side, then why are we continuing our --
MEMBER SIMON: What if one fence has to
come down? What is the point of getting
approval for less -- for the fence on the
other side of the property? If you're only
going to get guaranteed recognition for one
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
side of the property to put up a fence, what -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Side yard versus street
frontage, right.
MEMBER SIMON:
to be concerned.
worried about the
not just on one or two sides.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, no. We actually
definitely would need to have the property
fenced, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: And you need the legal
authority to --
MRS. MOORE: The only portion that is
like possibly a temporary fence with the
Trustees' approval is along the waterfront or
in the area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Part of the dilemma is
that the variance relief for side yard --
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The variance relief for
a side yard fence is significantly less --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's only --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- than it is in two
In other words, you have
I mean your client has to be
fence all the way around it,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
front yards, okay.
MRS. MOORE: I understand. Okay.
MEMBER WEISM/~N: So we're just kind of
creating a murky situation. The alternative,
though not as visually desirable from the
applicant's point of view and certainly at
more cost, would be to remove the existing
deer fence on the two street frontages and
relocate it to your property. Clear cut,
relandscape, relocate it, move it away from
the hedge and --
MRS. MOORE: Well, we don't even need to
relandscape because the evergreens are where
the evergreens always were.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine, but what I'm
talking about what you see.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, on the inside of the
property, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What you see, yes, on
the inside, I mean, because then what we're
dealing with is a very clear cut height
variance, okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's true.
MS. GOULD: Okay, if you're dealing with
just a height variance within their property,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
all my client would like to say then is that
it be properly screened.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's' not a problem.
MS. GOULD: Deer fencing is kind of ugly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's ugly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well was have
to --
MS. GOULD: Right now it's right up on
his side yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Frankly, Jenny, I
wouldn't even consider granting, you know, a
height variance on those side yards without
that screening. So, you know, I mean because
that is the least one can do if you're going
to create a visual obstruction like that to
your neighbor's property. I mean the place is
so beautifully landscaped that putting in some
more evergreens to serve that purpose is not a
hardship.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I think that's what
you're talking --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm talking about the
side yard.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. I understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, only one side
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
yard.
MRS. MOORE: Only one side yard, exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One side yard because
the other is open to the creek, to the inlet.
MRS. MOORE: One the one side yard is
between the split rail fence and so it would
require that the (inaudible) on the inside of
the evergreen so you see it, they don't see
it. You know the photographs show that the
fence -- the evergreens are going right
through the meshing. It's not seen, but that's
what --
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to make a
statement since I am probably the curmudgeon
of the Board, I would like to say having
walked around there and without looking at
these problems about the size of the right-of-
way, I would say I have no objection on the
basis of all of this, or at least not
sufficient objection so far as I know to a
deer fence as long as the deer fence is where
it should be and on the applicant's property.
So you want a sense of the Board as are we
going to give you a deer fence regardless of
where it is. Well I tend to be a skeptic and
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
I have skepticism just
general, but I do have
fences on somebody else's property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Sokol, can I
address you for one second to answer your
question?
MR. SOKOL: Yes,
How do you do?
for deer fences in
some skepticism to deer
object'ion to anything that the Building
Department brings before us again as long as
it's on your property. Now, I have to be
honest with you, I did a cursory search as I
- there was some testimony at the last hearing
about these fences in general and I spoke to
some nursery people in the area and they're
telling me that the area that you live in and
I testify to this is a hot area. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a real problem
actually.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And they're
referring to it as, you know, lukewarm, warm
hot. You know, you're hot. Okay and you're
hot because I suspect you've always been hot
meaning the whole area's been hot because it's
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(inaudible) Sokolo
I have absolutely no
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
warm down there during the day the sun comes
out, it's a beautiful place to live. There's
no question about it. Okay, so how could I as
a Board member, I'm not speaking for the
Board, could not be in favor of dealing with
some sort of situation that you people are
dealing with. The whole issue is pretty
similar to what Ms. Gould is referring to and
that is how do you make them look a little bit
better and what's the approximate age of these
things, okay, and that's the whole issue in
I mean, is there going to come a
general.
time --
MR. SOKOL:
which?
The approximately age of
CHAI~ GOEHRINGER: The fence, when is
it going to finally deteriorate that you're
going to have to move it into more of a
compromising place, you know, meaning that
it's a little farther away from the property
lines and all the rest of that situation. So
these are all the issues that I'm learning the
board is learning, okay, and you know --
MRS. MOORE: Well, that would certainly
be a very fair compromise that in the event,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
you know, as the deer fence deteriorates along
the street that it's not replaced in this
location. Really we're only talking about
this fence here that's behind the hedgerow,
well, you're talking about this one because
there's still a 4-foot fence --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I --
MRS. MOORE: -- and the hedge, which the
Board has no --
MR. SOKOL: Just to be clear (inaudible)
background, so the first idea to stop the deer
was to take the hedges as gaps, put in some
extra hedges, but basically fill in the
existing hedgerow. So you start with that and
then you realize that the deer, which are very
aggressive, eat through the hedgerow and look
at them as basically dessert to come in and
eat all the rest of the property and leave
their excrement everywhere. So you say okay,
I have to stop them so you put up this green
temporary fence in front of the hedgerow and
that works for a while and then you realize
you come at 5:00 and they leap, literally leap
these green 4-foot fences like they're not
even there and they go and attack everything
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
else in the property and then you finally
realize, okay, what we want to do is to put up
a deer fence, but we want to do it in a way
that you don't see it from either of the
property. The best way to do that is to have
it adjacent to the hedgerow so that the
hedgerow will essentially grow through the
deer fence, grow above the deer fence and you
don't see the deer fence from either in the
property or outside the property. So that
just gives you a little bit of extra logic
behind how this was constructed.
So, you know, the issue here, I mean as
far as what we're asking for here, in the as-
built fence is one thing, but that's the logic
of how we go to this point. So now we're --
on the side fences it was the same sort of
logic. First use the hedgerow and then put
the deer fence in and that's what we ended
here and, of course, the answer is not
(inaudible) the sides and fence. We need an
8-foot deer fence for essentially the full
perimeter of the property. (Inaudible) we
have to figure out some way temporarily to
deal with the creek because, by the way, they
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
walk around.
Some neighbors feed these deer, they
encourage them and they can't distinguish
between the ones that don't want them there
and the ones that do want them there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: As I see it at this
point, there are two options. One is to pursue
discussions complicated discussions, likely
with the existing Homeowners Association as to
where it's located currently. The other
option is to propose moving the frontages that
are there, the two street frontages -- the
fence that's currently on the two street
frontages onto your property so that we can
discuss height variance on your property.
Side yards are fine, it's the two street
frontages.
Now there is another --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) alright, I mean,
yes, you said 6-1/2 feet and we're asking for
the 7-foot, excuse me, 8-foot. On the Adler's
side, the fence is on their side between the
split rail and the arborvitae, but again the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
way Mr. Sokol described it is it was pushed --
it was put into the arborvitae so it has grown
into -- it creates almost a -- The plant grows
almost around and through --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: -- the deer fencing.
Is your client opposed to where it is?
MS. GOULD: They want -- they don't want
to look at it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, the split rail fence
is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's establish
first -- let's take it in one total package,
please, and we'll take testimony from Jen.
We're aware of the fact that they don't like
it. I need to go down and look at that fence
again --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIPJ~3%N GOEHRINGER: -- between your two
neighbors, okay, I feel very uncomfortable
going through people's gates and going through
people's yards when they're not aware of and
they're not home and they're not there. Okay,
I will tell you within the next couple of
weeks I will go down and you will see me
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there. If I see a car there I'll knock on the
door and tell you I'm there. Okay, if not,
then that will be the case.
Okay, I didn't spend as much time as
looking -- looking at those two situations,
either side, as I did looking at the front and
back.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Sokol's property?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Well,
property line and slightly --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
encroachment.
ME~M~B~ER WEISMAN: Okay,
MRS. MOORE:
that's been there
earlier.
The split rail is on the
it's on the
There's a slight
yeah.
Yeah. That is something
since at least 2001 if not
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so where -- hold
on one second. If and when we get to that
level of discussion, I think it would be
likely that given the congeniality, you know
the basic neighborly decency of all parties
concerned, you could discuss an appropriate
agreed-to remedy for screening that side yard.
You know, I don't believe that that's the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
fundamental problem before us. I think that
can be solved. There is the decision as to
where those, you know, as I said before,
either with the Association pursuant where it
is. without the Association, move it to a
conforming -- not conforming a property
location.
MRS. MOORE: On the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other thing I want
to point out is that you have a unique piece
of property in that you have very well
established trees. You've got an existing
fence. You've got a whole bunch of historic
conditions there. That neighborhood is
riddled with deer problems and, you know, I
understand since I've had Lime Disease myself
three times, the consequences, especially with
kids of the dangers of crawling in grass in an
area like that.
We understand there's a huge deer
management problem in town everywhere and the
Town Board is beginning to finally address it
in some substantive way. Fencing is an
individual's solution at the moment. Clearly,
all it does is displace the problem to your
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
neighbors. It is not necessarily a final
answer for anybody; however, granting height
variances on street frontages of that
dimension is going to establish, as you well
know, a very important potential precedent for
other applicants, other homeowners within that
area or anywhere else for that matter and we
have to think very carefully what the
consequences are. Do we then go ahead and say
to the next applicant well, yeah, you can do
it if you've got an existing hedgerow that's
12 feet tall to hide it?
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) but I think we
do address each property (inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
We do.
individually,
Pat, both --
but - -
MRS. MOORE:
-- if it's all vegetated
-- both are true, yes.
specific in and of itself,
(inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Each application is
but each application, as attorneys you both
know, is exactly what you're going to look at
for previous examples of what this Board
granted somebody else.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the public.
MRS. MOORE:
So but we --
We have an obligation to
(inaudible) screen and
maintain that the screening will be
maintained, which is his goal too because he
doesn't want to change the character of the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you don't want to
look at it either, it's not attractive. I
mean, but I'm trying to articulate what this
Board is facing in making this determination,
that's all.
MRS. MOORE: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to be totally above
board so the applicants understand this has
beautiful property. I completely understand
why you want to protect it and the investment
you have in landscaping and health of your
family. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what are you
going to give us the next time we see you
here?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I'll give you
(inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can talk about how
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ZBA Town of Southold - Dece~ber 3, 2009
you want it to be.
MRS. MOORE: Why don't I let you know in
writing how we're going to proceed?
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, good idea.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And just leave it open
without a date, you want to do that?
MRS. MOORE: Why don't we give it a date
because let's say if we decide to pursue with
the Association, then I'll have all the
paperwork filed (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CMAIR_MB_N GOEHRINGER: Alright, the
February regular meeting.
MRS. MOORE: What's your February
meeting?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
We don't have a date yet
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We haven't gotten
it approved yet,
MRS. MOORE:
fine.
but it'll --
Just let me know, that's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
third week in February.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRM3kN GOEHRINGER:
-- be around the
Alright.
That's not a problem.
And so we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
telling you definitively that month because
that's the same as giving you the exact date
because we're waiting for the Town Clerk's
office to approve the calendar for 2010.
Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I make a motion
and Ms. Gould is there anything that you're
giving us at that time other than what you've
given us so far up to this date?
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MS. GOULD: I'll give you the original
first.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good.
Alright, so we are -- again, I'll make the
motio~ adjourning the hearing until February
regular meeting date.
MEMBER SIMON: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 3, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
December 11, 2009
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