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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
October 29, 2009
9:46 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member (Start - 1:38 p.m.)
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant
LUCILLE CAPPABIANCA - Legal Secretary
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
BABS Corp. %6284
Kevin and Betty Ann Morris %6328
Kathryn Ferrand-Mooney %6325
Lorraine ?arra %6324
Jon and Jennifer Shipman %6327
Steve and Olga Tenedios %6323
Chris Meskouris %6326
Louis and Luba Corso %6316
Barbara Shinn %6308
Page:
3-3
4-11
12-28
29-43
44-48
49-159
160-179
180-194
195-239
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER:
BOARD MEMBER:
Call meeting to
So moved.
Second.
HEARING #6284 - BABS Corp.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
discussion on BABS Corporation and the
documentation that you received?
BOARD ASST.: No. We'll just open the
hearing and (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're opening the
hearing and I am offering a resolution to
recess this hearing without a date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
HEARING %6328 - Kevin and
Betty Ann Morris
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124 based on the Building Inspector's May
27, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
additions and alterations (to the existing
single-family dwelling) which will be less
than the code-required minimum setback of 10
feet on a single side yard, at 435 Oak Street,
Cutchogue; CTM 136-1-27."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who would like to
be heard? Would you kindly state your name
for the record?
MS. MORRIS: Yes, good morning members of
the board. I'm Betty Ann Morris.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pleasure to meet
you. What would you like to tell us?
MS. MORRIS: We'd like to tell you that
what we're proposing to do is just to make the
back of a very small existing cottage, which
when purchased we realized was inadequate
(inaudible) does not require moving the
existing structure. The other thing to
mention is that the neighbor most immediately
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
impacted by this setback minimum variance that
we're requesting is actually here to speak to
you today. So she would like to speak as
well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the question
I have is you were not denied for lot coverage
based upon the proposed addition.
MS. MORRIS: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the garage, is that what's
With the removal of
actually going to
keep the lot coverage down?
MS. MORRIS: Correct. Actually the
addition itself is only approximately 12 feet
on the rear of the structure --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct.
MS. MORRIS: -- and I believe that the
square footage of the garage is actually more
than the addition being added to the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you will
be within the lot coverage of 20 percent?
MS. MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have any
questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me for
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
jumping in.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No problem.
MS. MORRIS: I don't know if it's
relevant to your application, but I also have
some letters of support --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Definitely. Oh,
yeah. Sure.
MS. MORRIS: -- from the neighbors and
{inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great. Thank you
very much.
BOARD ASST.: I'm going to read the names
of the letters that we're receiving. Signed
by (Inaudible), Ann Cooper and Neil Cooper,
(inaudible), James Barry and Catherine Barry.
MEMBER SIMON: Can we read that letter?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Some of them are in
script and sometimes we have a little
difficulty reading them.
Why don't
are you today?
the record?
you use the mike, ma'am? How
Could you state your name for
MS. COSELL: I would be the neighbor of
the Morris' I live at 485 Oak Street, Mr.
and Mrs. Cosell and we would be very happy to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
have this building proceed and we are very
happy that it's going to be done in a very
legal way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Excuse me. Could I just
ask you -- ma'am?
I just want to ask you you're the
neighbor on which side of the house are you
the neighbor?
MS. COSELL: The right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Facing the front of the
house on the right?
MS. COSELL: Yes. Facing the front of
the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have the gray house.
MS. COSELL: I'm the one that has the
least property on that side there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So they will be the --
you will be the closest.
MS. COSELL: We'll be very close to them,
yes .
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and you have no
problem with that?
MS. COSELL: No,
we have no problem
whatsoever.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay good, thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: I guess my question has
been answered because in looking at this I
agree that replacement of the garage with the
addition to the house makes all kind of sense
and as far as the affect on the environment.
My only question was since this is a side
where there's a nonconforming setback the only
possible objection I can anticipate has
already been answered namely by the neighbor
who is on that side, the woman we've just
heard from, would be the only property that
might be affected and given that there is no
unhappiness expressed by that neighbor, I have
no questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think maybe the only
thing I want to enter into the record is the
question of the maintenance of the preexisting
nonconforming setbacks. There will be no
change according to this survey and I just
want to confirm with your testimony that the
intent is to maintain the existing
nonconforming setback with the new addition;
is that correct?
MS. MORRIS: In other words (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to use the
mike. We don't know if we took that testimony
down from her.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, would you just
come back up to the mike for a second?
MS. MORRIS: There's no intent to move
the existing structure or to expand the side
setback any further than it is already. The
only expansion would be toward the rear of the
property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Along the existing
nonconforming, in other words, you're keeping
it at 2 foot 9 inches all the way?
MS. MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Together with that
situation these are -- the existing structure
is a one-story dwelling and the addition is a
one-story?
MS. MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a minute,
George has a question.
MEMBER HORNING: Noting on your site
survey here fuel tanks, what becomes of those?
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Are those propane gas fuel tanks,
something else?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
propane.
fuel oil or
I believe they're
MEMBER HORNING: Are they going to stay
in place there then or are you going to
relocate those?
MS. MORRIS:
currently are.
Yeah, that's where they
I think that may actually be
incorrect. That's the current location of the
tanks and that is not correct where they're
going to be positioned after the addition at
the rear. They'll be on the rear of the
addition.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. That's what I was
asking.
MS. MORRIS: Yeah, that's the current
location.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, it just seems like
you'd be blocking them in if they stayed
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Morris, looking
at the rear of the property, rear of the
proposed new building adjacent to the proposed
deck, what is that area that's shown as 7.3
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
feet by the 8.7 feet, closest to your neighbor
that just spoke?
MS. MORRIS: Yes, it's an indoor storage
area, like a shed basically.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, it's a shed.
Is it attached to the dwelling itself?
MS. MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's an external
shed attached to the dwelling.
MS. MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I'm glad you
explained that. I just realized that I had a
question on that when I first looked at it.
Thank you.
Any further questions, Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody in
the audience like to speak for or against,
other than the nice lady that spoke before?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING %6325 Kathryn Farrand-Mooney
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-122A and ZBA Zoning Interpretation # 5039,
based on the Building Inspector's July 9, 2009
Notice of Disapproval concerning an
application for a building permit to construct
renovations and additions to the existing
dwelling, for the reasons that the new
construction will create a new nonconformance
with regard to a single side yard at less than
15 feet, and total side yards at less than 35
feet. (Note: This lot appears to be between
20,000 and 30,000 square feet after deleting
the land below the bluff or bank of Little
Peconic Bay.) Location of Property: 1769
Smith Road, Peconic; CTM 1000-98-4-20."
MRS. MOORE: I have Mr. Mooney here with
me. So if there are any issues that come up I
can (inaudible).
This application is taking the existing
house and (inaudible) space over the existing.
The majority of the addition is over the first
floor. There is a (inaudible)
which (inaudible) to the house,
entrance way,
but otherwise
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the existing setbacks are being maintained and
my client (inaudible) it's nonconforming. So
if there are any questions, it's a pretty
straightforward application?
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions. Just a point of information, that
sunken area that is behind the house, what
exactly is going to happen to that?
MRS. MOORE: That is -- well, right now
there are two, what looks like old garage
bays.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: It's a retaining wall. When
this house was renovated, I believe, the first
time FEMA issues were addressed and I believe
that elevations were corrected at that time.
So we have a current FEMA compliant first
floor. They didn't want to seal up the access
way because it provided storage area. It's
not usable space, but there is a garage door
in there that allows access. So that
retaining wall was created at that time is
going to be maintained.
Part -- one of the bays though if you see
that there is a little proposed described as
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the proposed addition for a stairwell within
that area there is a staircase to the second
floor and the choice for the owner was either
use one of the bedrooms as an access way for
stairs or build out a staircase on the outside
of the building. So what they did is that
little box is creating a stairway access to
the second floor and it's positioned within
that alcove that's already in existence. It's
all landward, on the landward side of the
house.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. I have no further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So Pat what you're
telling me is the greatest volume is on the
west side of the house, cause we have a
straight wall which extends all the up on that
side.
MRS. MOORE: Let me look at where you're
-- yes. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that's why it's --
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's sort of tapered,
Is that correct and
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but the greatest volume is actually in the
center of the house. It's -- I tried -- I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
thought it would be helpful on the elevation
to show where the roofline is versus where
it's going and you can see that the center
point for the existing roofline, that is where
the roof is tapered more.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It's a series of -- I'm not
the architect --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gabled peaks.
MRS. MOORE: Gabled peaks, thank you. I
knew you'd have the right terminology. So it
is an effort to cut the roofline so that it is
not voluminous. That's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, actually it's
almost -- it's not a mansard, it's just --
it's chamford, the peak is
a flat roof.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
chamford to create
Now, let's go back
to the opposite of the house, which is the
easterly side. You're showing a side yard
there of 8.4.
MRS. MOORE: The east side. Okay. That
is the shed (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, I have a
particular problem in general and that is that
I have not gone on this property because the
two times that I was down there there were
security --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. It depends
upon how it motivates me. Of course, we were
discussing Takaposha Road I was down on Sunday
morning when I put the dent in the truck.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, yeah. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last hearing.
In this particular one when I see security
statements on fences, okay, I think of two
things, cameras, security statements. You
know, people coming and --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE:
G-So
but
I
-- D-O-G-S.
Well, there are two big D-O-
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Well, they're very sweet,
I wouldn't go in there if they were there.
don't know if they were there at that time
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
or not, but you're certainly welcome to come
and (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I'm going to
have to go down this weekend.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Weather permitting,
walk around, understand the whole layout
because this is a difficult one to penetrate
from any other way unless you have a
helicopter and then we have trees. Okay, so
that's the situation. So I will be back down
to see that again.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So going back to
that easterly side yard. That easterly side
yard is shown at its widest point at 8 feet 4
inches and 7.7 feet at its narrowest.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, is that side
yard going to remain open?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. It has a -- I have a
photograph actually of it. If you look at the
photos that I've provided on the east side
there is a gate there now, but aside from the
gate it remains open.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I
MRS. MOORE: As I said,
existing setback already.
will --
that is an
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I will hold
the rest of my comments and go down the line.
George?
MEMBER HORNING: Who maintains the fence
on the east property line?
MRS. MOORE: Let's see.
MEMBER HORNING: The split rail fence.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the split rail, okay.
Yeah, there's split rail and then there's some
larger kind of overgrown cedar trees. The
cedar trees are, yes, that's the neighbors'.
BOARD ASST.:
that.
MRS. MOORE:
We can't hear the answer to
I'm sorry, on the east side
the cedar trees belong to the neighbor and the
split rail fence belongs to my client.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Is there a new septic
system required or in addition to?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's -- I don't
remember. Yes. They are actually all
compliant at this time, so they would meet
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
current standards. This house was renovated
three years ago, the first floor. At that
time, it would have been upgraded before the
building would have been allowed a building
permit.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So it's compliant for
the proposed --
MRS. MOORE: For the number of bedrooms,
yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think I don't --
you're not changing the preexisting
nonconforming setbacks in any way and the
house is -- it would have been a lot more open
had the house not been sited at an angle to
the property line instead of parallel to the
property line. I don't think a second story
addition is going to create any additional
obstacles. They are what they are and they're
going to remain the same.
The houses on either side of your
clients' are both historic and so the
character of the neighborhood is essentially
in keeping with that addition and it's
consistent with the LWRP. Ail work is going
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to be landward of the existing house and I
don't see any adverse impacts on the
environment as a consequence of building that
second floor.
So it's really maintaining what's there
and improving the house and expanding its
size. I don't see any real consequences in
any adverse way. The setbacks are small, but
the setbacks of the houses on the neighboring
properties are much farther away. So even
though there's a bit of a narrow situation for
emergency access there's nothing we can do
about that anyway, that's what the existing
house has, but the impact is not terribly
great because the neighbors' properties and
the neighbors' houses are both setback
substantially on their side yards. It looks
as though the setback from -- well, it's
really the beach because there isn't any kind
of a bulkheading or whatever -- it's about the
same as everybody else's in the area and
there's a very nice native vegetative buffer
that's, you know, grasses and so that's
installed. So I think it seems to me like a
straightforward application.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Yeah, the road itself is setback
substantially from this very small -- Smith
Road is really a very small sort of a private
right-of-way in a sense. It probably won't
affect that in any way either because the
house is quite a bit away from that access
road. So those are my comments and
observations. I don't have any questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What happens
sometimes, Ms. Moore, during -- sometimes, I'm
not saying it's going to happen this time, is
that when we talk about volume and we talk
about Walz in a pragmatic sense, sometimes
under the democratic way of voting of three
people, some of us are not willing to grant
the volume on the westerly side. The question
then comes in, what do we do, and if you know
the history of Walz that was the issue in
Gardners Bay Estates going back to that
situation. Do we reopen the hearing or do we
just cut it back? And so those are the issues
that I'm just throwing out to you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. I appreciate you
asking because my client's here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that was one
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
of the greatest thoughts about it. I am
looking at the original plan and I'm seeing
that possibly the proposed library or the den
or either bedrooms, okay, and so I'm looking
presently at the proposed plan and looking at
a massive master bedroom on the second story -
MRS. MOORE: Which side, the east or
west?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Both sides.
MRS. MOORE: Both sides?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the existing
plan, excuse me, proposed plan --
BOARD ASST.: Second plan, the next page.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. I'm
looking at the existing plan first, okay. I
don't know how many bedrooms are in the house
in the existing plans.
MRS. MOORE: The bedrooms are all on the
first floor (inaudible). There are three
bedrooms on the first floor now. So it's
staying as the three bedrooms.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's stay as a
three bedroom?
BOARD ASST.: On the first floor?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I apologize. Well, three
bedrooms, a den and library.
BOARD ASST.: On the first floor?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. The master bedroom is
relocated to the second floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Second floor,
right.
BOARD ASST.: Oh,
The whole both sides?
the whole second floor.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, there's like a sitting
area and a master bedroom suite.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. So in
effect --
MRS. MOORE: I mean I would actually
invite you to go inside this house because if
you were to -- the house looks large from the
outside, but actually inside it's very tight
and I happened to be there one weekend when
the kids had friends over and they were on top
of each other. So if you want to come inside
and take a look, it is -- it's a challenge now
for the family with the two kids and this
would be a nice renovation and gives them the
space that they need. So, please, go in.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the point
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
in question, when is your client available to
show it to us on the weekend?
MR. MOONEY: Possibly, Mr. Chairman, next
weekend.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: State
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the record.
Next weekend?
your name.
Yeah, just state
MR. MOONEY: With soccer and with
(inaudible) the kids are playing, it's kind of
hard. We haven't been out here. You do have
access to the property without the dogs and
without the -- the reason the surveillance is
there we unfortunately had several attempted
break-ins over the last two years. So we need
to protect ourselves there because we are
basically there seven months, eight months out
of the year.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MOONEY: And we've taken every
consideration to just be compliant with the
two neighbors on each side what they have just
to afford ourselves -- the house is very small
on the inside. One bedroom used to be a
maid's quarters. It's probably 8 by 8 and my
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
mother-in-law who's 82 and my aunt 82, when
they're all there we're sleeping on the floor.
So -- it looks like it's massive, but if you
really please you really need to eyeball it to
get a better idea of the easements on each
side and whatnot.
We've taken everything into consideration
with environmental impact to do this in the
right way, you know, having Pat with her
expertise and leadership. We're here not to
offend anyone, just to afford us what we love.
We love the town, it's our second home out
here and it is going to probably be my
retirement home and we do need this space, but
we're willing to work with anybody and
everybody to make it suitable for everyone.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why I asked
the question. Okay and in the Walz situation
we had a very similar situation except it was
a front to back ranch. A little narrower lot
and the Board was not willing to grant the
volume on that side. Meaning -- in your case
it's on the west side, in that case it was on
the east side. So I'm just throwing it out
and where we are.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
So why don't you let us know if you're
available a week --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we'll confirm that
next weekend is available. So right now can
we say next weekend?
MR. MOONEY: I'll call my boss when I
leave and --
MRS. MOORE: His wife.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 9:30, 10:00 or
something like that in the morning?
MR. MOONEY: Yeah, my wife and we'll know
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's the
boss?
MR. MOONEY: That's the boss.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wonderful. Thank
yOU.
MEMBER SIMON: Just one question. I am
tied up on Saturday morning, could it possibly
be Saturday afternoon?
MR. MOONEY: We'll be here all day, just
let me know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine.
MRS. MOORE: Does everyone prefer
afternoon?
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MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't need to go see
the house, I mean the interior is not the
relevant issue and I've seen the exterior
completely and I've got lots and lots of notes
and I think the biggest concern would be the
impact on the side yards and, having seen it,
I think there's enough open space between you
and your neighbors to consider granting
something that is a pretty substantial
variance from Walz.
Just so that your client's clear, what
the Chairman is really referring to is that in
some situations where second stories are added
on preexisting nonconforming side yards, the
intent is not to deny particularly, but to
step the addition back a little bit. Narrow
it a little so that the second story side yard
is expanded. That's what we're really talking
about. We're talking about a possible
alternate design. We're talking about a
second story that doesn't go right straight up
from the existing walls, but is set in a
little bit farther. That's typically what
kind of alternatives have been discussed with
the Board. I'm not sure that that, you know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
until they all have a chance to see it what
they're going to say.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, but in all
-- for all indications, Mr. Mooney, the entire
proposed second floor is a master bedroom?
MR. MOONEY: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One single master
bedroom?
MR. MOONEY: Correct.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Okay, is there anybody in the audience
who'd like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
I'll make a motion
pending the receipt of
any information that we may need from the
client or the attorney for the client, Ms.
Moore, after the inspection.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
make that as a resolution.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll
(See Minutes for
We thank you. I'll
second.
Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
HEARING %6324 - Lorraine Parra
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-124 based on the Building Inspector's July
8, 2009 Notice of Disapproval which states
that the new addition/alteration (to the
existing single family dwelling) will be less
than the code-required minimum of 35 feet and
will exceed the maximum lot coverage of 20%,
after creating new habitable floor space on
this +/- 2,475 square foot lot at 970 Seventh
Street, Greenport; CTM 1000-48-2-19."
MS. DWYER: I'm Nancy Dwyer on behalf of
Lorraine Parra.
The latest intention is to build over the
existing deck (inaudible) she's looking to
basically expand (inaudible) area out to give
herself a little bit of a dining area and
extend the living room. There's one
(inaudible) in 2006 as far as setback and lot
coverage and (inaudible) and maintain those
existing setbacks and lot coverage that
exists.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question?
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MS. DWYER: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ken, okay?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, go right ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you're
going to remove the deck?
MS. DWYER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're going to
excavate a crawl space?
MS. DWYER: Correct and pour foundations
walls.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And there will
remain one-story (inaudible) plans?
MS. DWYER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Some Board members
may not be aware of the fact that we've had
some relatively small lots like this. We've
had a garden variety of variances on parcels
in this particular area, but we've also had
some on Peconic Bay Boulevard in Laurel, the
majority of which tend to be, you would think,
in areas of described property. This is
really like a subdivision, an old subdivision,
and I think the smallest one we ever had was a
1800 square foot lot. This one, you said, was
how big?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MS. DWYER: This one is (inaudible) 2400
square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, alright. So
this is -- this tends to be a little
interesting. One of the questions that came
up in a discussion with the Board members,
where is the sanitary system?
MS. DWYER: To be honest, I don't know.
I don't know if it's part of {inaudible) or if
it exists on the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, could you let
us know that?
MS. DWYER: Yes. It's actually a
question that came up before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you may
find it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, in the front
yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
what usually happens with situations
this?
MS. DWYER: As far as
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
know, when you're excavating for the deck or
excavating for the foundation.
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like
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MS. DWYER: What we would have to do is
rethink the location of the addition because
it's not worth getting into the Health
Department relocating the sanitary system.
Those houses are so close to one another that
we have to contend with all of their wells,
all of their septic systems that it's easier
to leave it where it is and to refigure the
addition.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So there's no chance
that there's a sewer there in that street?
MS. DWYER: What was that?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
street.
MS.
system.
Seventh
A sewer in that
DWYER: Well, Greenport has the sewer
I don't know if it continues onto
Street.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the incorporated village,
it is.
It is not within
so I don't know if
MS. DWYER: Yeah, I don't know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask you
another question.
MS. DWYER: Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you
cantilever over the top of the sanitary
system?
MS. DWYER: We can't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, you can't do
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, you've gotta have
access.
MS. DWYER: You have to keep 10 feet
clear of the sanitary system. You know, if
anything should ever happen to that system,
you need access.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need access.
Okay.
MS. DWYER: Exactly.
MEMBER HORNING: What kind of basement
does the existing building have?
MS. DWYER: The existing is a full
basement with concrete walls.
MEMBER HORNING: So you could very easily
access the basement and look at the pipes and
see where they were leaving, what end of the
house.
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So then I suspect the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
first thing to do is do a little research on
this and find out exactly mechanically what's
going on underground and let us know because
we want to be deliberating on this as proposed
on the assumption that it is doable.
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Otherwise, you know,
then we need to -- you need to provide us with
an alternate layout.
MS. DWYER: Layout.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
then goes, what do we do?
Right.
So the question
Do you want us to
postpone the hearing after you investigate it
or do you want us to close the hearing? I
mean we could adjourn it to another date.
MS. DWYER: Yeah, let's do that. If it's
a matter of me going into
look and seeing where the
of {inaudible).
the house taking a
pipes are coming out
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hopefully it's in the
backyard under the patio.
MS. DWYER: That would be nice.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The problem is we
have only one more public hearing in the year
2009 and that is on December 3rd and we are
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
just inundated on that particular calendar.
So I'm throwing out to you, Nancy, what do you
suggest we do?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we put it on for
January?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, we can.
MS. DWYER: If we close it, what are we
doing if we close it? Are we (inaudible) and
starting over and picking up where (inaudible}
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we could
reopen it again.
MS. DWYER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: I wouldn't recommend that
because --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
BOARD ASST.: -- then there are too many
decisions that have to be made at the staff
level.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: It's better to do it
through the Board if you want to keep it on
the Board's review level, at this point,
otherwise you may have to re-file and start
over cause it has to be readvertised once you
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
close it anyway. If you're amending your
plan, you might as well start with a new
application.
MS. DWYER: I don't know that we're
necessarily amending the plan because --
BOARD ASST.: Well, I mean if you're
going to demolish, you'd have to show that on
the plans and then show the new areas that
you're reconstructing. So that's why --
MS. DWYER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: -- you haven't shown that
on this plan yet, right?
MS. DWYER: Well, I do believe the
foundation plan does show the existing
structure being removed and the foundation
walls and structure --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know about
that.
BOARD ASST.: I don't think we have that
plan.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There might be a note
somewhere.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's noted I think
on the plan, but we don't have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it does.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
BOARD ASST.: Yeah --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we have a
foundation plan.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: So Leslie, what was it you
were asking for then? I walked in while you
were talking, so were you asking for something
else?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Me?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no crawl space.
BOARD ASST.: Something you were asking
her for something because we're on an
assumption.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, what I was saying
was that we need to know for a fact what
they're proposing to us now is buildable
because the septic is not located where the
proposed addition is. If that's the case, we
just deliberate. You know, if that's not the
case, then clearly they have to go back and
reconsider where they're going to propose an
addition and that would be dramatically
different than what you -- what is before us.
So perhaps the best way to do this is -- cause
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
that would have to be -- either that's going
to have to be radically amended plan --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It may have to go
to a second story.
MS. DWYER: It would entertain a second
story, which honestly I don't know that she
would even (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Contemplate, yeah, cause
then you have a stairwell and all that other
stuff and it's getting to be more costly.
MS. DWYER: Exactly, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And so on. So I guess
the thing is we can close it subject to
receipt of that information, which means we
can deliberate on this or you can withdraw the
application based upon the fact that this
isn't doable and then take your time to
consider what your client wants to do.
MS. DWYER: I don't believe that the
septic is located in the front yard, being
that the deck is there. The deck has
footings. So somewhere along the way when
they were digging the footings for this deck -
MEMBER WEISMAN: They would have probably
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
found it.
MS. DWYER: So I don't believe that it's
located in the front yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: From a procedural point of
view, would it -- if it turns out, if we close
the hearing, subject to the receipt of
information, if the information is that the
septic system is not a problem, then we don't
have to have another hearing, and if it is a
problem then you can either, you know,
withdraw the application or do something else.
So I'm not sure what advantage is gotten by
leaving the hearing open since we're really
not --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Since you have to
readvertise anyway for new construction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right. I mean if
it's going to be substantially different then
it's a new application.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
an amended plan.
Right.
So that's much more than
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I have to
tell you in all true candor, I enjoy this soul
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
searching of what to do with the Board members
so that everybody is pretty much in sync to
what we're doing. So it's good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, maybe we should
take some questions or comments on the
application as applied for in case anybody has
any questions, assuming that's the one we'll
deliberate on.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Yeah, sure.
Well, that was the question for me.
MEMBER SIMON: My only question, just a
comment I noticed that some of us remember the
previous application and it's an interesting
puzzle because here we have a recognized lot
and it was arithmetically impossible to
satisfy both the minimum size of the house and
the setbacks unless the house went to a second
floor, which was not -- it's a very strong and
expensive recommendation. So what the
applicant got was, the previous owner, I
guess, was kind of frugal for the house with
the -- nonconforming in this way and
understanding that there was a shortage of
living space. Now, one modest way of
improving that problem would be, of course, to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
use part of the existing footprint for more
living space and that seems to be what the
plan is and it makes perfectly good sense
subject, of course, to there not being a
problem with the septic system.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, if you look at the
neighborhood nothing is consistent. I mean
every setback and every house is a different
size. The lots are primarily differently
sized. The addition is, you know, it's very
close to the road. The deck is, I mean, it's
like sitting on it practically, but the
proposed addition is so small and the house is
so small and it has pretty generous side yards
and rear yards that I think that normally I
would say that something that close to the
road, you know, adding bulk to it would be
problematic, but because of the uniqueness of
this lot in that area and the small size of
the house and proposed addition that I'm
prepared to really take that into
consideration. There is no consistency that I
could see. The house across the street is set
way back. The house diagonally is much bigger
and also quite close to the road. The house
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to the other side has a greater setback, but,
you know, it's also fairly small and a little
taller. So there really isn't something that
-- there is no street wall in other words,
there just simply isn't.
MS. DWYER: No, absolutely. The other
house on the other side is on the corner of
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Yeah, that one is
the closest thing to mimicking what Ms.
Parra's property looks like. So I think
that's a chief consideration for me anyway in
reviewing this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
That's basically what
the past in this area
these extremely small
Alright, thank you.
the Board has done in
and particularly on
lots.
Is there anybody else on the Board that
would like to say anything?
Hearing no comment, is there anybody in
the audience would like to speak for or
against this application, Appeal %6324?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing in receipt of the
information from Ms. Dwyer regarding the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
septic system and its position on this
property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
HEARING %6327 -Jon and
Jennifer Shipman
MEMBER HORNING:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124 based on the Building Inspector's June
17, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning an
addition to the existing single-family
dwelling with a front yard setback at less
than the code-required 50 feet, at 4745
Elijahs Lane, Mattituck; CTM 1000-100-4-11."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to state
your name for the record, both of your names.
MR. SHIPMAN: I'm Jonathan Shipman.
MS. SHIPMAN: Jennifer Shipman.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
Okay, what would you like to tell us?
MR. SHIPMAN: We didn't get all the
return receipts from all the letters. We
tracked the one that we didn't get and we have
a copy from the Post Office.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Do you have that with you?
MR. SHIPMAN: We do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to
bring that up here, sir?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what would
you like to tell us on your request, what are
you looking for?
MR. SHIPMAN: The front porch is going to
be a little bit over the setback requirements.
The neighbor to the south is (inaudible) 300
feet away. They're a little closer to the
road than we are and as far as I understood it
it was less than 300 feet and they were closer
to the road they would set precedent for us,
but they're over that (inaudible) and we just
want a front porch that we're able to get out
(inaudible) out and (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MEMBER HORNING: I saw the site yesterday
in the pouring rain and Mr. Shipman showed me
around and I really don't have any questions
at the moment.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
No questions.
No questions. You're
right next to an open corral area of woods and
farm fields across the street. I don't think
that small addition is going to have an impact
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
on anybody except the two of you who will be
able
to enjoy a little more space on your house.
has
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: Short
I'll bet Michael
questions, comment.
After I saw it I went back and looked to see
whether the decorated part, the part with the
shrubbery on to the south of where the porch
is going to be is going to be removed,
apparently it isn't. In other words, the
porch is not going to run the entire length of
the front of the house, just part of it. Then
I thought looking at this, I mean this really
is pretty unproblematic. The reason you're
subject to a 50-foot setback rather than a 35-
foot, why you're here has to do merely with
the fact that you've got a lot of land behind
the house and that doesn't have much affect on
the purpose of this setback requirement in
this particular case. So, you know, given the
smallness of the setback asked for, and the
whole general nature of the neighborhood there
I don't have any questions other than the one
I just asked.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
review the numbers with you, Jonathan. Is --
you're showing the porch at 29 feet 1 inch; is
that correct?
MR. SHIPMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wide, right?
MR. SHIPMAN: Yes, (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right and 8 feet in
width or depth. Okay, based upon the plan you
have specific pillars out there holding the
overhang up?
MR. SHIPMAN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, it is -- it's
going to be poured cement?
MR. SHIPMAN: The pillars?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the porch.
MR. SHIPMAN: The porch is not going to
be poured cement. It's going to be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to be a
wood porch.
MR. SHIPMAN: Correct, on footings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Does anybody
have any other question of the Shipmans at
this time?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Okay, before you
in the audience would
this hearing?
leave, is there anybody
like to speak regarding
Hearing no further questions, I'll
reserving
Okay.
make a motion closing the hearing,
the decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING %6323
Olga Tenedios
MEMBER HORNING:
"Location of Property:
Steve and
17327 Main Road
(private right-of-way), Lot 6 on a Map of
Brionn Gloid By the Sea, East Marion; CTM
1000-23-1-14.10 adjacent to the Long Island
Sound. Requested are Variances under Sections
280-15(C and F), based on a building permit
application and the Building Inspector's
Notice of Disapproval dated July 7, 2009
concerning the following proposed new
construction:
A) The proposed garage with pergola
structure is not permitted:
1) with a setback less than 55 feet
from the front yard line along
the right-of-way;
2) in a side yard when a front yard
or rear yard location is code-
required on a waterfront parcel;
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3) with a size that exceeds the code
limitation of 750 square feet;
The proposed accessory pool building
is not permitted;
1) with a size that exceeds the code
limitation of 750 square feet;
2) with dormers proposed in excess
of the code limitation of 40% of
roof width;
C) The proposed swimming pool is not
permitted in a side yard when a
front yard or rear yard location is
code-required.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, give us
your appearance, please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore on
behalf of the Tenedios. I have Mr. Tenedios
here with me and Mark Schwartz, the architect
on the house and similarly designed the garage
{inaudible) house (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to start with first?
MRS. MOORE: Well, why don't we start in
the order -- let me just explain a little bit
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
of the circumstances that create the
difficulty.
The property, while it's quite large, is
bisected along the waterfront by the Coastal
Erosion Line and the environmental regulations
requiring us to move away from the water. We
have compliance with respect to setbacks from
the water, which is a very important part of
this project and the difficulty is that the
filed map shows the right-of-way that runs --
the 25-foot right-of-way runs along the whole
front of the parcel and it dead ends on what
is owned by State of New York.
At the time the subdivision was created,
the State of New York did not own the adjacent
property. So it's possible that that right-
of-way may have been considered for future
connection, curb cut for future development on
the east, but in any case, it is an access way
that when we asked Mr. Stankevich, who owns
the land to the south, whether or not we can
modify, rework that 25-foot right-of-way since
the reality is that we prefer not to have it
opened up and keep it as natural as possible,
plus also the fact that we would then be able
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to move the structures closer to the property
line. That was rejected so we designed or set
the structures to as close compliant as we
could.
The garage is 50 feet from the property
line, but 25 feet from the edge of the right-
of-way. You're seeing this more often now
with waterfront properties that most accessory
structures end up going into a side yard.
There are a few -- there's little room for
accessory structures in a rear yard on a
waterfront piece of property and in this case
moving the structures even further towards the
street and towards the right-of-way line
creates this necessity for variance as well.
We have -- the structures that are
proposed and with respect to the garage, as I
explained in my application, my client has an
extensive car collection and rather than build
a house with a huge oversized garage that
would kind of detract from the architecture,
it is believed that a detached separate garage
could be placed on the property in such a way
that it is -- it adds to the property value
but (inaudible) from the property.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I ask you a
question at that point?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On these lot
mergers, which has nothing to do with this
application, you are kindly supplying to the
Board vacant lots in the area. Would you
kindly supply to the Board a search of the
surrounding properties and tell us what kind
of garages that exist on the improvements
within this immediate area?
MRS. MOORE: I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we could
possibly or attempt to -- and I don't mean
that in a sarcastic way.
MRS. MOORE: Sure. I -- whatever you
would like I can certainly provide.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There --
MRS. MOORE: Keeping in mind this piece
of property is very isolated. It is along the
water and -- but we have no neighbors on the
east, obviously it is state land. The land, I
can tell you, to the south is vacant. It's
for sale right now, I believe I saw a for sale
sign there. Mr. Stankevich has it for sale.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which pieces does
Mr. Stankevich own?
MRS. MOORE: Right directly to the -- on
the right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, both parcels
MRS. MOORE: There's two lots. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does he own both of
those lots?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. He is actually here
today so you can ask him.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: But the property (inaudible)
he still owns the two lots.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What we've seen in
this area, there are estate-type houses as
your client is building.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Some of
which have attached garages, some of which
have detached garages.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Since it's very
difficult for the Board to go into these
estates and to view them, maybe from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Assessor's records you could give us what the
accessory structures look like.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Their approximate
size.
MRS. MOORE: What I can do is I'll get
Google Earth to give me an aerial and then I
can check the property cards to see to the
extent that the records reflect (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you do that
for us, please?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I appreciate that.
Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, I didn't
mean to stop you --
MRS. MOORE: No, (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know what
we ever did when we didn't have Google.
MRS. MOORE: That is
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
clients -- one of the
amazing.
Okay.
actually one of the
property owners to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
west is Ianu (sic) and he has what you
described, a very large estate home and a very
large garage. I've been on the property. I
can actually (inaudible} --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cause only recently
we've done or had applications to redo one
rather nice house that overlooks the Sound. I
suspect it was on the Sound, my recollection
is not -- it's an approximation of how far it
overlooks the Sound, but the unique turrets
that ~hey were requesting and observation
towers that they were requesting.
MRS. MOORE: I remember that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You remember that
one?
MRS. MOORE: I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: About four years
ago.
MRS. MOORE: It's on the other side, it's
on the east side of (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. On the west
side of this house, this proposed house.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Not a problem, I can
provide that for you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Anyway, we're continuing on. With
respect to the garage, as I said, it is for
his car collection. He also wanted the bay so
it can allow for his boat to be able to be
stored inside rather than in the yard so the
property remains orderly. The square footage,
the additional square footage was for the
pergola, which is an open -- it's a trellis
structure and that just provides architectural
interest and is something that I guess it's up
to the Board whether we consider it lot
coverage or not. It is unroofed in the sense
that it's a pervious lattice material. So
it's nonhabitable but it is -- we would also
provide it here.
With respect to the pool house and the
pool, as I pointed out, they don't have an
ability to put the pool on the water side of
the house nor would anyone be interested in
having us do that. While we could ask for a
permit from the Southold Town Trustees to do
it, it's just not environmentally appropriate
and there's certainly adequate room in the
side yard for a pool and a pool house. The
pool house similarly -- the size of the pool
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
house is under the required accessory size.
It's 729 square feet, but the Building
Department increased it over the 750 by adding
the pergola that is providing shading right in
the area of the pool and patio area. So that
pergola area is actually very helpful in the
hot sun and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But it does have a
second story?
MRS. MOORE: It -- actually we were just
talking about that. My client would actually
like to open up the roof. It was designed so
that it all matches the architectural style of
the house. It originally had been proposed
with a second floor space, second story
storage only. Storage only, of course, but he
would actually, we were talking in the
hallway, and there'd be no issue with actually
opening it up and doing it as a cathedral open
ceiling. So, again, the rooflines and the
pitches of the roof are attractive and match
the architectural style of the house, but as
far as the second floor storage space --
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is on the garage
you're talking about?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: No, I'm talking about the
pool house. I apologize.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just making sure.
MRS. MOORE: We're talking about the pool
house and originally there was going to be a
ceiling and storage space in the pool house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see it.
MRS. MOORE:
to --
BOARD ASST.:
to get his answer,
Thank you.
MRS. MOORE:
clarify the --
BOARD ASST.:
But he actually would like
Excuse me, if you want me
he does have to come up.
Okay. I needed him to
That is not on the record,
only your answers. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. The opening of the
ceiling is something that would be -- Mr.
Tenedios would have no objection to if the
Board wants to eliminate that storage area on
the second floor. What is important to him is
the architectural style of the pool house
again to match the house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
BOARD ASST.: We're just trying to locate
the pergola on the site plan. Is it labeled
somewhere on the site plan, Si?
MRS. MOORE: You know, actually it's not
showing on the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not on the site
plan. It's on the floor plan.
MRS. MOORE: It's on the floor plan, yes.
Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Floor plan, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Where is it located on
the site plan?
MRS. MOORE: On the site plan it's over
the patio area facing the pool.
BOARD ASST.: Over the patio area. What
are the dimensions of it?
MRS. MOORE:
you right now.
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
architect actually
MR. SCHWARTZ:
(inaudible}.
I'm going to get that for
Oh, alright.
I'm going to have the
(inaudible).
Mark Schwartz, I'm
That trellis is proposed to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
approximately 6 feet over the pool house
(inaudible) so about 27 feet by 6 feet.
BOARD ASST.: So it's 27 feet by 6 feet?
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: On the east side of the
MRS. MOORE: On the west side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: West side of the
pool.
MEMBER HORNING: West side, pardon me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mark, can I ask you
another question?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're removing the
second floor on the pool house. What are we
going to see when we walk in there? Are we
going to see heavy timber structurally and
looking through heavy timber are we going to
see a complete open vaulted ceiling with no
timber at all?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We were just talking about
that. With the open ceiling I would probably
expose the roof rafters so you would see roof
rafters of the ceiling pitch.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: With no floor beams
at all in there?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you're
just going to see a significantly vaulted
ceiling as anybody would do even in a house,
assuming it was sheet rocked, but this won't
be.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, thank
you. Okay, do we know how far the pergola is
from the top of the bluff?
MRS. MOORE: It would be the same
distance of the -- well, there's no bluff. It
is 131 feet from the spring high water, which
the measurement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
What are you going to do now, Pat?
MRS. MOORE: Well, let's answer whatever
questions that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, one part at a time
if we could, while we're on that subject. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the proposed pool house is -- what is the size
without the trellis?
MRS. MOORE: 27 by 27, 729 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Two story, but no
second story.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Alright, well
this would be a redesign or whatever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you get into
that, let's talk about the height of it. Does
it exceed 18 feet?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, it's 22 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's 22 feet.
Okay, so it's 18 feet to the mean, 22 feet to
the ridge?
MR. SCHWARTZ: The mean I don't have,
only to the ridge.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is it going to need a
height variance for that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's my question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Depending on the size of
the lot, which will be based on buildable area
not deed --
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MRS. MOORE: Right and the buildable area
is (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. I'm trying to
remember what the new accessory structure code
is and whether or not that -- on a lot that
size.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
side yard setback.
(Inaudible) setback, the
So (inaudible) setback on
side yard (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so what we're
talking about is 729-square-foot pergola --
pool house structure with an additional 6 by
27-foot approximately pergola for sun --
sunscreening sort of thing.
Let me ask you about the positioning of
those two structures, the pool in the -- I
don't really have a problem with the pool in
the side yard. Your septic system is in your
front yard and you're really kind of boxed in
and there's certainly enough room for a pool
on this property. Have you considered the
possibility of simply cranking the pool and
pool house -- cranking the pool at a 90 degree
angle from how you're proposing it and
bringing the pool house over the way you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
it now so that it would be -- increase the
setback from 42.3 feet?
MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure
-- oh --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
this way now.
if I understood
Well, the pool is like
MRS. MOORE: Okay, just switch --
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you go this way and
then move the pool house over, you would be
increasing that setback.
the
are
MRS. MOORE: Well,
separation from the
MEMBER WEI SMAN: I
we have to maintain
sanitary rings that
think you could almost
squish it -- you might have to make the pool
little bit shorter, but you could --
MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure -- I guess I
don't understand the reason for that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The reason.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, isn't that 42.3-
foot setback an issue?
MRS. MOORE: No, I don't believe it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, it's not.
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MRS. MOORE: No.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Ail that (inaudible I
think a 20-foot setback.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: It's location in a side
yard, so it includes everything.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, if the location is in
the side yard the setback of the structures is
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is acceptable.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Which is conforming when
it's in a rear yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, right.
BOARD ASST.: Or a front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there really isn't
any other place for you to put it, if you're
going to put a pool. It has to be in your
side yard, there's no other place to do it.
Alright, do you want to go on to the
garage or are there other questions on that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to ask a
question. You have a green stamp from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Health Department regarding the septic system
at this time? I mean you probably wouldn't
have gotten a building permit and you wouldn't
have gotten this far if you didn't.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And there was no
attempt to make this -- put the septic system
any closer to the house? This is where they
wanted it and that
MR. SCHWARTZ:
pretty much. It's
was pretty much it?
Well, it is installed
there now, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: We had setbacks to wells,
potential wells for lots particularly the
undeveloped on the south. There is usually an
interest in trying to keep --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- distance. The Health
Department directed where (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let's just look,
while we're at it, at the proposed dormer of
more than 40% of the roof width. What exactly
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
percentage is it?
doesn't say.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
The Notice of Disapproval
We have dormers on both
sides.
not sure (inaudible)
pool house elevation
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Gable end dormers on both sides. I'm
but if you look at the
(inaudible) direction of
Well, I guess the
nonconformity had to do with them being more
than 40% of the --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, because the design is
not a typical (inaudible) roofline
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Ail I'm suggesting
is, number one, we need to know what
percentage you're proposing, if it's more than
40%, and, number two, while you're in the
process of redesigning the pool house relative
to the elimination of the second story, might
you at the same time consider reducing that
variance to the size of the dormers and so on
and balancing them a little bit differently.
What we're looking for is the smallest
variance that we can grant that's acceptable
mutually all the way around. So since you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
doing that anyway, let us know what you're
proposing in the way of percentage of dormer
and see if that can be reduced somewhat.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Certainly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the size of
-- now are we on to the garage?
MRS. MOORE: I don't know.
MEMBER SIMON: I want to continue with
questions on the dormers.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, go ahead.
MEMBER SIMON: Following up on what
Leslie said is if we are asked, among the
things we are asked, to give a variance for
the dormers, we are going to need information
as to some -- give us a basis for making such
a variance. If we don't even know how big
they are or where they are, we can't -- we
couldn't recognize -- I don't think we can
make an alternative recommendation that they
should be shorter by whatever, 7 feet or
something like that, unless we know what we're
doing.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: This is, I think, a
general comment which may apply also the, what
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
you call a garage, the larger building, this
is a project, pretty impressive guided by,
what we're not supposed to say, aesthetics,
but an architectural vision and the
architectural vision is essentially to build
something as high and grand as the house,
which is the reason for the appeals to the
architectural coherence. So the dormers are
presumably contributing to this or whatever
these second floor things are. The idea of
having a very large, now I'm mentioning the
other building, the large garage has to do
with possibly how -- is it that it has to be
that big in order to make the dormers look
right, which are, after all, aesthetically
pleasing height, or is it the other way
around? So the idea of this -- and it only
affects us. We don't make judgments on
aesthetics so far as you're asking for a
variance from the rules that have to do not
with height, but do have to do with dormers
and do have to do with building size and if
there -- I hope there'll be arguments other
than aesthetics that will explain why we have
to have such a large garage and pool house
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
given, of course, that there's a two-car
garage already under the house.
MRS. MOORE: Do you want to go to the
pool house architecture?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well we could
certainly look at this and rework the roof
ends so they're at 40% dormer.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That makes sense to just
eliminate that variance.
MEMBER SIMON: To eliminate that
variance, that's fine.
MR. SCHWARTZ: We can do that, we'll find
a way to do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: As far as the overall size
of the pool house, we had intended to stay
under the 750 square feet, which it is now.
The pool house itself, the Building
Department, I assume, determined that they
wanted to add the area of the trellis as part
of the lot coverage for the pool house. So
that's why -- that's the only reason we're
over 750 for the pool house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
the Building Department, as
wasn't being arbitrary. We
You mentioned --
far as I can see,
have a lot of
applications that have to do with pergolas and
they do count and we can't very well expect
the Building Department to say pergolas don't
count --
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) I didn't know
that.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. So that's -- okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But the fact of the
matter is that while it covers -- lot coverage
is not an issue on this property.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is
it to calculate the overall
-- they're using
size cause it's a
vertical structure, even though it's not
habitable, they used it to calculate the size
of the proposed accessory structure.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I just --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, we can (inaudible)
that.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) is that maybe
some guidance from the Building Department
would be helpful because when you get in --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
what the Board worked on with the Town Board
(inaudible) structures, they were looking at
things that we could discuss, dormers,
building size, habitable space. Pergola is an
architectural feature, really no different
than other typical architectural features that
are listed as exempt from lot and area
requirements. So it may be helpful if the
Building Department at one point -- I think
it's a matter of interpretation that if the
Zoning Board says that, no, when you're
dealing with accessory structures you're
actually measuring the habitable space, not
architectural features attached to it, it
would be certainly helpful, but that would be
up to the Board. But, in either case, giving
us the additional square footage for the
garage because of the pergola is really
something that would be -- provide additional
comfortable shade for next to the pool. It is
a feature not only architecturally makes the
building look attractive, it is a useful
feature no different than a canopy or a tent
or whatever non-attractive feature might
provide.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you talking about
the pool house or the garage or both?
MRS. MOORE: No, we're talking about just
the pool house right now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The pool house, fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just remember that
the pool house is the minimum size of a
habitable dwelling that's two-story in the
Town of Southold.
MRS. MOORE: No, 650 I think it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that's for a
one-story. For a two-story, it's 750 okay for
a two-story --
MRS. MOORE: For a habitable dwelling?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct, for a two-
story habitable dwelling in the Town of
Southold.
MRS. MOORE:
that, but okay.
Okay, I didn't remember
This is not planned as a
habitable dwelling, this is a pool house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It will remain unheated?
MRS. MOORE: It'll -- Okay, so there is
intention to make it --
BOARD ASST.: I didn't hear his answer,
I'm sorry.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: No, I'm just repeating.
Heating and air conditioning would be
preferred.
BOARD ASST.: In the pool house, but not
the garage.
MRS. MOORE: In the pool house. We
didn't answer that, but yes. Not in the
garage, but I'll make
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: I
sure that we
just have
a question
specifically
because while we're not here to
interpret the code, we're here to read the
code and it's an interesting question as to
whether the area of the size of a pergola
counts with respect to the size of the
building to which it's attached as opposed to
Right.
And I don't know the
lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
answer to that. Maybe we can't decide -- let
me just ask a question, theoretical, but if a
person does not have a problem with lot
coverage they would be free to put 12 pergolas
scattered throughout their land.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: As long as they met setback
requirements for structures, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so they are
structures?
MEMBER WEISMAN: And lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: The Building Department --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- well, he said
(inaudible).
The Building Department has always
considered it a structure because it is made
of wood.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, then the question
would be and maybe this would be useful, is if
that structure is put in such a way that it is
connected to the pool house structure then, of
course, it increases the size of that
structure, but if it were 6 inches away or
something like that, or what is --
MRS. MOORE: If it, yeah, independent --
Yes, I guess we could design --
MEMBER SIMON: That would be one way of
solving the logical problems at least.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Excuse me, I need to go
back to something here. Pat?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
you've submitted here
The, Mark, the plan that
says unheated storage
and unheated pool house on these plans.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, unheated. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But your client just
said the intent was to heat --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You said your intent was
to heat and air condition this.
MRS. MOORE: Well, then we --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I asked
because here it says unheated storage and
unheated pool house.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) what was
requested.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now if this is a
seasonal use --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- we could assume that
it should remain unheated and un-air-
conditioned. You have an outdoor shower,
which is fine.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's compliant.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Right, it's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you are permitted to
have a half-bath as proposed in an accessory
structure. So all that's kosher. I just want
to make all this consistent.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Let's be consistent,
yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that you are
not proposing to heat or air-conditioning?
MRS. MOORE: No, we'll keep as it is
proposed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, are we now on
the garage?
MRS. MOORE: Just one thing --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You just need to
state your name for the record, sir.
MR. TENEDIOS: Mr. Tenedios, I'm the
homeowner.
I will readily give up the second
The gables, the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The dormers.
MR. TENEDIOS: The dormers, I think,
a role architecturally.
story.
play
I realize you guys
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
don't care that much about architecture. You
really care --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, wait a minute.
That's not necessarily true.
MR. TENEDIOS: I would gladly give up the
pergola and the second story to keep the
structure and the dormers. I believe the
dormers add and enhance the structure. It
would be a shame for us to redraw, represent.
If we could get beyond this point, today, like
I said, I would give up the pergola. I'll
take the heat and the sun, but I'd like to
keep the dormers, if at all possible. And the
second story, I don't need the storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I think that would
be entirely up to you and your architect to
work out. Come back with a proposal, you're
going to do that anyway. If aesthetically you
can eliminate a variance and still satisfy the
client, that's most desirable, but you have to
see it and you have to like it and want to
build it.
MR. TENEDIOS: And I'm saying I would
like it and I was hoping to get beyond this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
point to come to some agreement today so we're
not spinning our wheels.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you
that the uniqueness of this Board --
MEMBER SIMON: That's very helpful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- has really never
been to eliminate a pergola. This is not a
tremendous --
MEMBER WEISMAN: A big issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- sized pergola.
It's a very tastefully done pergola and we go
back now to something other than
architectural. It's a nicely done pergola,
I'd hate to see you give that up. Okay,
because I think it's necessary, but the law is
the law regarding the issue of dormers and the
interpretation of dormers.
MRS. MOORE: I think that (inaudible) of
the Building Department is that a dormer
because --
BOARD ASST.: They've already denied it.
It's over 40%. They've made that decision.
MRS. MOORE: But all because it was a
second floor at the time, if you open up the
ceiling --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why I think
Mark needs to go back to them and discuss it
further.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Yes, when Mark filed with
us he told us that this plan was shown to the
Building Department. So that's why we're
using this Disapproval because Mark said they
denied this plan.
MRS. MOORE: No, I agree with you.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: What we are going to go back
an double check is that if you take out -- if
you open up a cathedral ceiling, now is it a
dormer or isn't it?
BOARD ASST.: That's inside. Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Because now it's not a --
dormer implies a ceiling height, correct?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time,
please.
MRS. MOORE: It's that you don't need it
if you're not doing a ceiling with this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's what I
was -- that's what we're basically saying.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: The point is if you --
in the process of redesigning this to
eliminate the second floor, yeah, go and talk
to Mike and find out --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- how -- if you need
another updated Notice of Disapproval because
it might change.
MRS. MOORE: Right or it may be that
there is no variance --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying.
It may be redefined. So just cooperate and
work that stuff out and get back to us.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: We would need an amended
disapproval, obviously, and that takes time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I would say today's
remarks are very helpful because and relevant
because one of the considerations is whether
the benefit that is sought can be achieved
without various variances. It helps us focus
in on what the benefits are and how serious
they are and I think it's very, very helpful
to understanding how to apply this. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
language of the State Code is pretty general
and it's hard to interpret, you've helped us.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, are we ready to move
on to the garage?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. Yup.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Well, as I stated
before, the garage is oversized and it is
again (inaudible) house and he is trying to
provide adequate space for
(Inaudible) store his boat.
on the southeast corner of
cars and a boat.
(Inaudible) put
the property to try
to keep it somewhat out of sight and it is
using -- it is taking the right-of-way, the
25-foot right-of-way and using that as the
access point. The right-of-way has to be
shared one way or another it would provide the
access point for the garage.
The garage, the short view of the garage
is the (inaudible) from the State -- from the
parking lot. It is also the short distance
that is (inaudible) house. The -- my client
does intend to landscape the property and
create a screen at the property line. So we
will keep the property screened and private in
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
order to protect surrounding properties
including the (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Quick question.
What is the surface of the pavement in the
rear of the garage?
BOARD ASST.: Facing the water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Facing the water.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, under the pergola?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. Facing the
garage.
BOARD ASST.: Is that a pergola off the
garage?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, yes. Off the garage is
the pergola. That's 640 square feet of hash
marks, that's the pergola that was added or
that is part of the garage. That we talked
about, that can certainly be reduced. That
is, again, my client is more concerned about
the usefulness of the garage and the pergola
can be reduced down in size and you can
eliminate it, I guess, if it's a question of
having a garage versus having a pergola. The
garage is the useful portion of the structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is the size of the
proposed garage without the pergola?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: 1,120 square feet. It's
three bays, two cars and a large -- the boat
bay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that the purpose
of making it 28-feet deep?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yeah, boat and
trailer. Again, it keeps it safe and secure
and it's not a -- (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Question. Terminology,
maybe it wouldn't make a difference, would it
make any difference if the building that is
housing the classic cars and the boat were
called a boathouse or a storage house? I
don't know. Maybe the word garage has a kind
of suggestion because it suggests that's where
you keep your cars rather than where you keep
your hobby.
It legally may not make any difference.
MRS. MOORE: No, legally it doesn't
because it's all accessory structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't, it's still
an accessory structure.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. Right, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I have to say that
the largest accessory structure that this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Board has granted since the accessory code was
-- structure code was changed is 850 square
feet.
MRS. MOORE: I think down in Nassau Point
you may have approved other garages of similar
size.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We did approve --
MRS. MOORE: We'll check the date. I
thought it was after the code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We did look at one for
antique cars that was impossibly large.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But they were
significantly -- the reason why I asked the
question for significant garages in the area
they were actually barns in the area that
housed horses.
MRS. MOORE: Oh yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's true.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, I will give you the
information with respect to the garages of
similar size and character and the location
and the ZBA decision is %6240, Phyllis Kaufer
at 3175 Nassau Point Road in Cutchogue. So --
and that decision was March 5, 2008.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And what was the
size of that garage?
MRS. MOORE: 1,440, so larger.
BOARD ASST.: One story?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One story.
MRS. MOORE: Two story, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, it was one
story.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it was one-story.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the garage
doors in order to get the square footage --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, needed to go up higher?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They needed to go
up. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay. This is described
as (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he was using
jacks to jack the cars up.
MR. TENEDIOS: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, Mrs. Kaufer was
in that business and they were jacking them
up. He is also an avid car buff.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The size and its
location will have potentially significant
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
visual impacts on the road, on adjacent
properties because of its height. The
previous variance, that particular garage was
in a kettle hole as I recall. It was quite
suppressed. It would have absolutely no
impact on the neighbor who had no objection or
the road for that matter.
MRS. MOORE: Well, we are --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I don't know that we
can really compare those two applications
particularly. I think --
MRS. MOORE: Well, actually I would point
out that we have no objection to put -- we
have a vegetative buffer, but we could plant
trees on the east side of the property, which
would, you know, grow and cover the structure.
Right now I know that when you're coming --
when you're driving west on Sound Avenue from
the ferry, you see the tip of this house, but
that's it. You see some activity, but the
property is still heavily vegetated. From the
neighbor's property, again, our plan is to
screen it so we could put in significant
screening. That is his plan, so we have no
problem with that. We could also -- well,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
vegetation would be the best way to screen
this. It's not as high as the house, put it
that way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well sure.
MRS. MOORE: You only see the tip of the
house when you're coming -- when you're
driving on the North Road from the ferry. I
don't know that you really will see the tip of
this garage. Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
time on the State property
Well, I spent some
Saturday morning
when I was out there and you get a pretty good
view from the State property into the --
MRS. MOORE: Of the house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Into the entire
piece of -- oh, the house is extremely high so
you would get that anyway.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I would
probably do the same thing. I mean, it's a
beautiful, beautiful structure, it will be.
But, in general, you really should give
us a landscaping plan so we can look at it,
number one, in reference to that side.
Secondly, we really need to address these
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
overly large square footages, in general.
Anything that you can do to minimize those
would be greatly appreciated, basically, what
my colleague Leslie has said.
MRS. MOORE: Well, you know, something to
keep in mind is that the alternative is to
build multiple garages and I don't know that
that's really something that would enhance the
property or, in fact, it creates more visible
clutter for neighbors and for anyone including
the property owner. So we did discuss that,
you know, as we considered, you know, having
to come in for variances. I always discuss
the clients' alternatives and multiple garages
were certainly discussed, but it just --
including combining the pool house and the
garage, but it really didn't -- it didn't lend
to a nice design and it, again, it just really
didn't enhance the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the only thing
that I would say about that is that when
you're designing from scratch as is the case
here, you already have multiple garages, one
is attached.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean you have one
attached to the dwelling, which would --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, well that's for their
own personal (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand. Right, I
understand that, but knowing fully well this
is not like a new situation where you suddenly
went out and bought cars, you had them.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you needed to house
them and Mark and Pat are both very familiar
with these codes and so on. There may have
been, knowing that full well, an alternative
to proposing such a large accessory structure
given the awareness of the need to house these
cars that you have. The other thing is, do
you, given the size of this house, do you
really need a second story? Do you need to
have storage above, do you need maybe a story
and a half for the height
something like that?
MR. TENEDIOS: Well,
of your boat or
storage is important
because there's no basement in the house,
there's no way to store anything.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. TENEDIOS:
MRS. MOORE:
the second floor,
MR. TENEDIOS:
MRS. MOORE:
(Inaudible).
We can reduce the storage on
is that --
I need the storage.
You need the storage, okay.
There is no storage in the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Be right with you.
MR. STANKEVICH: Do you have any speakers
or microphones that goes into the record so
that a court understands what --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Stankevich, we
are asking for the agent for the applicant,
who is an attorney, to rephrase that each
time. I can't force the speaker to speak. If
Mr. Tenedios wants to speak, okay, we will ask
him to speak, but normally that's the
situation. I have to tell you, yes, it's a
little unconventional, okay, but --
MR. STANKEVICH: I appreciate what he's
saying, I just want it in the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. STANKEVICH: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: He can speak for himself,
then. He's -- the storage, I just wanted to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
defer to him if there was any possibility of -
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
Then let him speak.
I would suggest that he use
another speaker, too. If you want to ask him
questions, he can answer you.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) because I don't
want to volunteer something that's not
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Alright, I don't
want to intervene at the time you're about to
say something so I'll -- my question really
had to do with the consideration of the size
of the structure and we have heard -- it's a
very familiar argument is that by the
technicalities of the code if you think of one
building as too large, we can always build
several small ones, which means that you can
build something we and you would like less,
which is not exactly right on point. What I
am concerned though more
talking about impacts of
among the considerations
substantively is in
a very large building
are the property as
yet undeveloped and so that at the moment --
maybe there is someone to speak for the as yet
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
undeveloped property, but the idea is that
this will have very little impact if we do
this, or the other thing. That is in part
because there are no neighbors on the other
side. I would like that on the record, notice
that has to be taken into consideration if we
are talking about impact at all in the
surrounding areas. That's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: Well,
there are no houses.
MEMBER SIMON: That's
neighbors are those people.
Go ahead.
Mr. Tenedios --
there are neighbors,
what I mean, the
BOARD ASST.: Oh, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I suspect you have
relatively high groundwater here; is that --
MR. TENEDIOS: My original intent, sir,
was to have a full basement here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. TENEDIOS: We found during the design
process, the approval process that we could
not have a basement because of the water
table.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. TENEDIOS: I do need the second story
storage space for that. I would consider the
alternative, which is to build a two-car
garage and separate boathouse if that would
make the Board happy. I also would like you
to consider that we're considerably undersized
given the lot coverage that we have here. So
my alternative, yes, would have been a longer
house with a four- or five-car garage or
double decks, whatever. I chose not to do
that, to keep a smaller footprint on a
relatively large structure and have ancillary
space for the other vehicles that I own.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no chance
of putting, making the garage one-story and
putting a basement in the garage and raising
it out of the ground to the maximum allowable
level so that you could utilize the 850 on
both levels?
MRS. MOORE:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
(Inaudible).
I don't know what -- you
lost me on that one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Grading a little
more topography on that side with some maybe
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
some retaining walls and possibly putting a
lower level in the garage --
MR. SCHWARTZ: I see what you're saying.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay, thereby
utilizing it on two separate sides? One side
-- doors on one side and one door on the other
side. The way they've done on these multiple
barns that we've seen all throughout the
country and in New England and down here also.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) water table,
that's the problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's why I
asked the question.
MR. SCHWARTZ: That
the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that the lowest
portion of the property, okay.
BOARD ASST.: It's only 7-foot contour.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I would not
suggest excavation in that area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wasn't really
suggesting excavation, I was suggesting
filling on the outside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. TENEDIOS: To address-- I'm sorry, I
don't know your name.
MEMBER SIMON: Simon.
MR. TENEDIOS: To address Mr. Simon's
concern about the neighbors and what else is
going on in the neighborhood. There are other
homes on Main Road there where they're built a
home on the Sound side and a home on the
roadside. So we're
doing this either.
lots will be built,
not setting a precedent by
Eventually, I'm sure these
but we're on the Sound
side not the road side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why don't we address the
setback?
MRS. MOORE: From the right-of-way? Yes.
Well, again the right-of-way is a mapped
right-of-way with dead end access. The access
really is for my client. The road-front
property owners would, if they went up the
right-of-way would dead end and there would be
nowhere for them to go. The purpose of moving
the garage 25 feet from the edge of the right-
of-way is rather than keep pushing more
structures towards the water, keeping the
garage closer to the property line and at 25
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feet with the additional 25-foot right-of-way,
we are 51 feet from the property line, which
is a comfortable setback for both turning
radius as well as privacy from the southerly
property line. We thought it was a good
compromise. We would certainly, if the Board
wanted us to, move it closer to the road, we
could. We might be able to
pergola, I think we want to
separation between the pool
-- well, the
keep some
house and the
garage (inaudible). I think if we had to
there is some flexibility in the area that is
now shown as the pergola for the garage so it
could be shifted back and forth in that area
without any difficulty.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you could increase
that setback from the roadway --
MRS. MOORE: We could --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- by the reduction or
the elimination of the pergola on the garage,
you could --
MRS. MOORE:
garage was more
Yeah. The pergola on the
of a design element, not --
it's purely design element here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
plumbing in the garage?
MRS. MOORE:
memory, no.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
exterior?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No,
facilities?
MRS. MOORE: No bathroom.
show anything.
Okay, is there any
I'll double check, but by
(Inaudible) on the
sanitary
No, it doesn't
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It's unheated actually.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the second
issue is is the square footage on the second
floor -- I realize that it is a sloping roof -
- the same as the square footage on the first
floor?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Its less. (Inaudible)
calculate the area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you give us
that some time?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Do you have that number?
Oh, alright. I can't hear you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: (inaudible) where the boat
is going to be is probably unusable, so --
BOARD ASST.: That's the first floor
you're talking about.
MR. SCHWARTZ: There's dormers on the
other side also.
MRS. MOORE: No, I think the question was
on the second floor where (inaudible) on the
second floor.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah. Oh, alright. So let
me see where the boat was.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay.
[Everyone talking at the same time,
indiscernible.]
MRS. MOORE: Here I'll show you on this,
you can look at the plans (inaudible).
MR. SCHWARTZ: On the east side of the
garage this roofline comes way down to the top
plate. So you're really, although this may
look like it's usable space, there's no
headroom here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can slide boxes in
there.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a knee wall.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, for storage, not
standing. So as far as usable space, I'd have
to do a calculation if you wanted that
information.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, give us a
calculation on that.
MRS. MOORE: There's another slope here
and here (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Cause you said you needed
it for storage.
MRS. MOORE: It's storage there, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I'd like to ask a question
further about the right-of-way, the one to the
south. It dead ends to State property,
correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Who shares the right-of-
way?
MRS. MOORE: Well, on the map I have the
right-of-way, my memory is that it's not --
there's a deeded right-of-way, but it's not a
documented, there's not a separate road
maintenance agreement. Mr. Stankevich is here
and he would know best if --
MEMBER SIMON: But I mean who gets to use
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the right-of-way besides the owner of --
Tenedios?
MRS. MOORE: Well, arguably the right-of-
way is for purposes of access for each lot to
the road, to the Main Road. So I think
legally that the southerly property would have
-- their right-of-way goes from their property
to the Main Road. Most of the -- the
southerly property owners should not have
reason or be permitted, I think, to go north
to a plot north of the property line because
again the access road is an access right-of-
way to the Main Road, but, again, there's
nothing in writing. It's just showing on the
filed map without further explanation.
MEMBER SIMON: This could help because
if, in fact, de facto the right-of-way is
really the property of the Tenedios and no one
else uses it, then it wouldn't be -- then
there would or shouldn't be any problem about
the setback to a right-of-way because if after
all nobody else is really supposed to use it,
why does it count. It would be nice to have
documents that show that it wasn't a right-of-
way, but I --
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, unfortunately in doing
the title search, I haven't found an actual
document explaining what that right-of-way is
for. I'm relying on common law principles of
access.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. Could Mr. Tenedios
purchase the other part of that right-of-way
so it becomes his property?
MRS. MOORE: We offered. We offered and
Mr. Stankevich was not interested.
MEMBER SIMON: Which means he maintains a
property interest in that right-of-way,
essentially. I mean it's --
MRS. MOORE: Arguably, but I think the
issue might only come up if we were to put a
gate at the entrance.
MEMBER SIMON: I know, but the argument
for the variance depends in part on the
essential uselessness to anybody else of that
right-of-way.
MRS. MOORE: Right, let's argue that even
worse case scenario the southerly property
owners drive up, to where? Ail they'll be
doing is coming up and -- to his property with
no purpose or invitation. There is a beach,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
but there is a right-of-way access to that
beach that runs along the south, excuse me,
the east property line. There is a 5-foot
wide right-of-way per filed map that goes to
the south and it connects to the southerly
property. So each one of the southerly
properties have access to the beach along this
5-foot wide path.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pedestrian access,
that's all.
MRS. MOORE: Pardon me?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pedestrian access.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm interested in hearing
why the neighbors aren't interested in selling
their share of the right-of-way.
MRS. MOORE: Cause I can't force somebody
to do what they really don't want to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mike, what does
that really have to
this point?
MEMBER SIMON:
do with the application at
It has to do with the
argument is that this isn't kind of really a
right-of-way, I mean it's a dead end and it's
hardly used and it seems to be an obstacle. I
mean if we could --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE:
of -- we wouldn't
MEMBER SIMON:
variance.
MRS. MOORE:
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON:
Well, it's only the purpose
need a variance, well --
You're asking for a
I think we still need
You're asking for a
variance over a right-of-way which you're
arguing isn't really a right-of-way.
MRS. MOORE: (inaudible) dead end and our
client is the one who would be the one
entitled to (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Now, you're saying that
the State has no
either?
MRS. MOORE:
interest in this right-of-way
I don't believe so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think, one, they
would want to come into private property.
MEMBER HORNING: Is there any portion of
the right-of-way on any other properties,
looking at the one that goes parallel to the
applicant's southerly property line? Not the
driveway right-of-way, but the one -- the
right-of-way for the garage, let's say. Is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
there any -- it's not showing on this map, but
is it like perhaps a 50-foot right-of-way or
something that has -- is there any portion on
the other property?
MRS. MOORE: No. It's a filed map that
shows an access from the North Road up along
the -- I will find it and I thought I had
given it to you in the packet, but if not I
will double check. It's a typical Old File
Map that shows the right-of-way going along
the west side of the southerly properties and
then it dead ends on my client's property to
the -- until it ends at the easterly line.
MEMBER HORNING: May I rephrase it then,
the 25-foot right-of-way which is providing
access as a driveway to your client --
MRS. MOORE: For us right now, yes.
MEMBER HORNING: -- when it dead ends at
your client's property but continues as a
right-of-way, is that right-of-way exclusively
on your client's property or is it elsewhere?
MRS. MOORE: I believe it's exclusive,
yeah. Are you asking -- there's another 25
feet to the south --
MEMBER HORNING: Or any portion of it?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: No,
map shows the 25 feet
MEMBER HORNING:
no. Nothing. The filed
dead ends there.
And that portion of the
right-of-way is exclusively on your client's
property at that point?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, at that point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so where do
we go from here after we take testimony?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sure that there are
comments and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, after the
comments, I'm only throwing this out. You're
going to have some redesigning --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Well, we have to talk
to the Building Department. I'll get you the
research on the garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the
situation you may not have heard it, this is
not a sarcastic statement, we have one more
public hearing in the great year of 2009. We
do not have room for you at that public
hearing. The next public hearing is January
14tn, that is the best we can do is to recess
this hearing until January 14th --
MRS. MOORE: Well, why don't we do this,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
why don't we let -- let's see what the
comments are because what you're asking of us
could be accomplished without having to come
back. So, but that's up to the Board whether
or not you want to reopen it and have us talk
about what we submitted. I think that the two
things that we're submitting are mostly
dealing with the pool house is right now what
you've asked for is we're going to talk to the
Building Department about dormers and
technically whether it's a dormer or not a
dormer and I think that was it.
We'll show -- well if the Board wants to
move the garage slightly to the north versus
the south, we've given you the green light
that there's room for movement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're giving us
the green light?
MRS. MOORE: Giving you the green light
that the area where the pergola is there is --
well the pergola is 16 feet. Let's say that
there is probably room for 5 to 8 feet
movement towards the pool house for the
existing garage, err, the proposed, pardon me,
for the proposed garage.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We now have a
sloping property line or a diagonal property
line in that area so we can't make a decision
because we don't know what the setback would
be there.
MRS. MOORE: Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cause it's going to
push it more to the west as the farther you go
MRS. MOORE: No, because the pergola is
measured at 20 at the closest point. So I
think you're okay because we're not pushing --
if we pushed the garage back, you're going to
be at greater than the 20. 20 is the closest
point if you look at the survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're giving us
permission -- we don't need permission. Are
you giving us --
MRS. MOORE:
My client is here and he is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
-- no, that's not even the proper phrase.
me rephrase it again. Are you accepting
alternate relief?
MR. TENEDIOS: Yes.
Are you allowing us
Let
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: There you go.
MRS. MOORE: There you go.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) Mr. Stankevich
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: George has a couple
of more questions and then --
MEMBER HORNING: Pat, briefly could you
take us through the last -- the history of the
building permitting and the ownership? I'm a
little bit confused as to I see Stegel sold
it. He bought it -- Stegel bought it in 1999.
Can you sort of -- and then there's some
permit -- building permits from then on. Can
you sort of brief us on what happened --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay.
MEMBER HORNING: -- in terms of the
building permits?
MRS. MOORE: Stegel owned this --
MR. TENEDIOS: Mr. Stegel had his own
permits, his own plans. We didn't choose to
use any of that. We went through the whole
process ourselves. So we have nothing to do
with Stegel's permit.
MEMBER HORNING: So I'm looking at a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
building permit dated July 9, 2008 issued to
Mr. Stegel, apparently, and then he sold it a
month later.
MR. TENEDIOS: A month later is correct.
MEMBER HORNING: And then the new
building permit is not listed even as the
number here.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's an open permit
right now. So the house that's under
construction right now wouldn't be listed yet
probably until the CO is issued.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, so --
MR. TENEDIOS: We have a permit.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Right, for the house.
Right.
I doubt that you'd be
building it without one.
MEMBER HORNING: And so under this
concept of a brand new building permit, brand
new designs, new construction, all of a sudden
you're applying for another building permit,
at least one more for this two-story framed
garage, a pool and etc. within x-amount of
time from being issued brand new building
permit for a brand new construction. Where's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the consolidation or whatever, the master plan
of the property? I mean it's hard for me to
conceptualize that within a year's time all of
these designs have come up, been altered,
changed, new plans, new buildings --
MRS. MOORE: Well, I don't know about Mr.
Stegel's work because that was before my
client purchased the property. It's all a
question of timing as far as this Board has no
-- there's usually a three or fourth month
backlog to get a variance heard. So the house
-- there was a master plan actually with
everything as is shown here or close to it, I
think that was shown to the Building
Department early on, but it was taken -- since
these are accessory structures, the house
could be started and well into the process.
I'm hopeful, timing-wise, it would work out
that if the Board, you know, saw fit to grant
these variances by the time the house was
nearly to the point of end of construction,
the contractors could continue on with the
next accessory structure.
So there is -- it's just a typical
construction schedule and because you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
dealing with a waterfront house where all of
these structures are in a side yard,
everything requires a variance. If we didn't
have this right-of-way to deal with, some of
the structures could have been
yard and be in conformity, but
way I think throws the project
variance situation.
in the front
that right-of-
into an area
MEMBER HORNING: Okay, a couple of more
brief questions to -- go ahead. Go ahead.
MR. TENEDIOS: I'd like to address your
question in a different way and that is to
remind the Board I built a much smaller house
than the law would have allowed. I understand
what you're saying about these ancillary
structures. I don't think it would have been
better to have a 40-foot longer house with a
6-car garage and that's part of the reason.
The home could have been placed in the center
of this property and been much longer, much
larger in size.
MEMBER HORNING: Why would that be
detrimental?
MR. TENEDIOS: Detrimental to who?
MEMBER HORNING: Yourself or the
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neighborhood?
MR. TENEDIOS: I'm trying to keep the
neighborhood and the environment in mind
throughout this whole process.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, it seems like one
building is better than several.
MR. TENEDIOS: One large building?
MEMBER HORNING: Sure, why not? If, as
you say, you would be permitted to do that.
MRS. MOORE: I think you're affecting the
coverage very differently at that point,
lot
but
that's a matter of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Anything else,
George?
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, and Pat I just --
technical notes here. Looking at the local
waterfront notice here.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: The form,
doesn't seem to be filled out at all.
no yes or nos checked.
MRS. MOORE: Oh?
MEMBER HORNING:
the one I have
There's
It's basically blank.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible). Okay, oh,
that's weird. I entered it, but when I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
checked in my computer it didn't -- thank you
for catching that. I answered it and
highlighted -- the yes or
bold, but for some reason
checkmark.
MEMBER HORNING: Oh,
MRS. MOORE: So I'll
I'll give you a clean copy.
MEMBER HORNING: Please,
this --
MRS.
100 feet
no is highlighted in
it didn't get the
okay.
happily, you know,
right. Because
MOORE: Everything here is more than
from the Sound. So everything should
be consistent since we are complying with
setbacks.
MEMBER HORNING: Right and just a note
then too on the State Environmental Quality
Form, the short form on question 10, 10 and 10
affects 11, but the question being, "Does the
action involve a permit approval finding now
or ultimately from any other governmental
agency being federal, state or local?" And
the answer is no. Just explain how the answer
is no if this action doesn't involve a permit
approval.
MRS. MOORE: No, it's any other agency.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
So the SEQRA application is you, so -- but is
there another entity that we need permission
MEMBER HORNING:
Trustees or --
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER HORNING:
MRS. MOORE: No,
Right, like a Board of
And the answer is no because
-- anything like that.
because everything was
more than 100 feet from their jurisdiction.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay. Okay, got it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what else?
Anything else from you, Pat?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay. I'm going to look
through my papers for the filed map. I think
that someone was asking if we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This was a minor
subdivision, was it not?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, Brionn Gloid was a
major where two homeowners got together and
they combined their properties and ended up
with a major subdivision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MRS. MOORE: I actually, yes. I have --
well it's in pieces because that's the way I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
got it from the title company, but I have -- I
can give you a copy of the file map --
You have the complete map? Okay, I'll
let Mr. Stankevich do that, I guess.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Mr.
Stankevich we are requesting you use the mike
over there and address the Board and give us
your appearance.
couple of minutes
about two minutes
call, but I won't
I will tell you in the next
I will have to leave for
to make a quick telephone
hold the Board up.
Is the mike not working?
BOARD ASST.: It was working earlier but
-- there we go.
MR. STANKEVICH: Working?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MR. STANKEVICH: Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning.
MR. STANKEVICH: Thank you for being
here. My name is George Stakavich of the firm
of George Cochran Stakavich and Associates
representing my good wife Peggy and myself who
are the owners of the property to the south of
that which is in question.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
I think what we've witnessed here today
is a performance of creative ambiguity. In
Brooklyn they call it a con job and this is
largely produced by self-inflicted problems of
this applicant. They went ahead and barged in
and built their house and gave no notice to
any authority as to their future plans and now
we end up being asked to sweep up these
supposed problems.
We have a piece of property in question
here of over 72,000 square feet and we need 5
variances? In thinking ahead, master planning
with a good architect, which has been present
here today, couldn't most if not all of these
issues been dealt with at the beginning? It's
not that the proposed that's been built
doesn't have a garage, it does have a garage.
Could have been made bigger. We're told, oh,
there's a water table problem.
where's the test well drilling
what that alleged problem is.
it up as we go.
Well, I say
log to show us
Let's not make
The fact is, I think, that you and I have
not been given a complete picture of what is
being attempted and we've had to pull out this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
morning bits and pieces as we go along and
that's really not the way it should be.
For instance, a simple thing. What is
the nature and extent of this 25-foot right-
of-way? It's been there for 40 years. When
Charlie Ran did the major subdivision of
Brionn Gloid he provided for a access right-
of-way coming up between the two lots Peggy
and I own to the applicant's property and then
turning to the right to the east a 20-foot
right-of-way. You've been repeatedly told
that it's a dead end. Well, maybe a dead end
for the applicant, but not a dead end for the
owners of my property because at the end of
that 20-foot right-of-way is a 5-foot footpath
easement down to a beach on the Sound. A very
valuable and useful asset for my property,
something that I thought would be pretty
obvious from the filed maps, that's what it
says.
Now, one of the interesting things is
that on the applications that were sent to the
Trustees and to you, you look at those maps
and on nowhere does it show the beach, my
beach. In fact, these applicants in their
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
maps include it within their building
envelope. After you approve this application
are they going to go tell their gardener,
"dump all your junk there", and when I
complain or some future property owner
complains, ia some unknowing Building
Inspector going to say, well, the ZBA had this
as a building envelope. They approved all of
this. So bits and pieces have been left out
in this process.
At this time I'd ask the architect to
produce the application for the Health
Department for this property. Do you have it
with you?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I do not.
MR. STANKEVICH: Okay, did you provide it
to the Board?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I did.
MR. STANKEVICH: Okay --
MRS. MOORE: It would be a public record
at the Building Department.
MR. STANKEVICH: That's true.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we'd kinda
like you to use this mike, please.
It's very rare, Mr. Stankevich, that you
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
request
You request it to the
take it down and that
Board is so inclined,
MR. STANKEVICH:
anything of anybody in the audience.
Board so that we can
person then, if the
reacts to that.
Well, in parlance of a
lawyer it's called, request to produce and
it's done all the time in quasi-judicial
proceedings, particularly when the people
often have these things at hand and can, you
know, speed up the process.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Normally what you,
I would have thought you would have done was
to send a letter or fax to Ms. Moore
requesting that to be present at the hearing
if she had it in her possession.
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, as you know, I
asked yesterday for your office to ask them to
bring the file over and you apparently denied
that request, but we'll take it in due course.
I'd like to introduce at this point --
BOARD ASST.: Actually, I think, Mr.
Stankevich, you asked a question and the staff
told you you could ask through the Board today
at the hearing if you needed files.
MR. STANKEVICH: I'd like --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
BOARD ASST.:
that.
MR. STANKEVICH:
this time --
Af
There was no denial done on
I'd like to introduce at
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. STANKEVICH: -- Stankevich's Exhibit
which is the application by Tenedios to the
Trustees.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, for the record I want
to mention that there are two pages being
added to the record, Notice to Adjacent
Property Owner that the Trustees have on file
together with the map that was included, map
SI, prepared by Mark Schwartz is attached to
that notice. Thank you.
MR. STANKEVICH: Now, you'll notice that
on Exhibit A that was the site plan dated
September 30, 2008 the beach parcel, the beach
for my two lots is omitted. Not identified
and, in fact, it is at the northeast corner of
that map and the building envelope as drawn by
the applicant substantially encroaches on that
beach parcel. So that is a grievous error and
it's grievous because you brought it up in
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
your proceedings as to what's the status of
this 25-foot right-of-way. Is it dead ended
or does it have some other purpose? Well, it
certainly does have another purpose and that
purpose is to provide beach access for my lot
owners and that's a valuable enjoyable item.
Now, the second item I'd like to draw
your attention to in this Trustees'
application is that it does show the house and
it does show the two-story proposed frame
garage, but where is the pool, where is the
pergola and where is the beach house? It
seems to me that any action taken by the
Trustees was in the dark with regard to these
items. So I don't think we, you, should place
any weight whatsoever as to the previous
action of the Trustees in this matter because
it looks to me as they might have been
misinformed and there should be no mystery
about this misinformation because the
applicant's attorney says that she has in her
possession or had in her possession the filed
map and I'll present the filed map to you know
as my Exhibit B to show you wherefrom I'm
talking.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
So what are we going to do here? Are we
going to make it up as we go along? When you
ask a legitimate question, people are going to
say, I don't know or that's not the way it is
or I don't know about this beach. Well, we do
know about this beach and we're bound to know
about it and it's been there for 30 years or
more and the beach brings up another issue
here. You know, if we're dealing with simple
area variances here, according to your rules
you know better than I, it's a weighing
process. The importance of the issue to the
property owner and the importance of an issue
to the applicant and I say if we deal with an
area variance here, who are the interested
parties? It's just not this applicant and it's
just not my family or my future lot owners.
It's certainly the people who use Stevenson's
Beach, the Town Beach. They are located at
the east end of this application and they will
be seeing these rather large structures and
they have an interest in that and I'm sure
they'll be notified or should have been
notified. There is another party in interest
here and it's Suffolk County.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Suffolk County for a number of reasons,
but primarily to me, is that this property,
when I say this property, our property, the
Stankevich property, has been selected for
possible acquisition by the County for open
space and I think that these large structures
that are going up impact the value of our
property and certainly the open space
aesthetics of the County and Town's people who
will use the properties to the south at a
future date.
So there are stakeholders here other than
the applicant and myself. I think one of the
most beautiful vistas and rides in America
happens to be driving from East Marion to
Orient across that causeway. You see Orient
Harbor to the south. You see Connecticut to
the north, Long Island Sound and what the
applicant has done here and is proposing to do
in a segmented fashion a little bit at a time
not giving you or any other Board the overall
plan, is that they're going to build a Chinese
wall of huge structures along the bluffs and I
think that changes the aesthetics of driving
from East Marion to Orient. Maybe we should
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
call it instead of a Chinese Wall a Greek wall
and what we're going to end up here is with
the Acropolis blocking our views.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, let's keep it
in a more general sense, please, Mr.
Stankevich.
MR. STANKEVICH: Now we have an applicant
that obviously --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse -- I
apologize.
MR. TENEDIOS: That's terrible.
MR. STANKEVICH: He -- he's sensitive to
the truth. He's a major developer in New York
-- Brooklyn who knows well the rules.
MRS. MOORE: I object to the (inaudible)
and the comments as irrelevant --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That has nothing to
do with this hearing.
MR. STANKEVICH: It does. Let me
explain.
MRS. MOORE: -- to this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It has nothing to
do with this hearing.
with this hearing.
MR. STANKEVICH:
It has nothing to do
We are stumbling through
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
a series of self-inflicted problems and that
should not be the basis for asking for relief
from the Zoning Board of Appeals. We're
dealing with people that are very
knowledgeable about building codes and they've
built themselves into a problem they say and
they want you to get them out of it. I don't
think you should do that at the expense of my
property owners or the public or the County.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask a question at
this point?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sir, it's very clear
that there is value in a pedestrian footpath
to a beach for anybody. There would be no
reason or need, I think to drive a car along
the right-of-way from the Main Road making a
right turn and driving to the footpath because
there would be no ability to drive a car along
this 5, what is really a footpath. My
question to you is in order to maintain the
value of your beach access or the property,
your property with beach access, could there
be some sort of consideration of an in
perpetuity 5-foot wide right-of-way for
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
pedestrian access along the existing 25-foot
right-of-way that then becomes, you know, a
perpetual access to the beach by anyone on the
southerly property. In other words, it is
potentially possible to have both Mr. Tenedios
and have his home there and some accessory
structures, but not block -- you know, it
could be a split rail fence, it could be some
graveled area. It could be something
separated from the proposed driveway so that
there is a permanent pedestrian access for
those southerly properties to the beach.
MR. STANKEVICH: It's already there.
Maybe we don't want (inaudible) feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, but what I'm
talking about --
MRS. MOORE: How much? 5 feet.
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, down to the beach.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, 5 feet --
MRS. MOORE: No, what I thought you were
pointing out is that the 5 feet extends down
to and bisects the State (inaudible). So if
you see that that beach parcel that area on
the filed map it then gets access down all the
way to the state road.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
No, where's the big one?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. STANKEVICH: I think the answer is
simply two-fold. First, this applicant is
asking you to ameliorate their self-inflicted
problems, self-created problems. Now the
hypothetical is that I should throw something
into the pot to ameliorate their problems, but
you omitted another stakeholder. I could
visualize quite easily owners of these
southerly adjoining property wanting to go
down and have a beach party and drive their
car or trunk full of soda or sandwiches down
to the 5-foot right-of-way without walking up
the hill with all of that stuff.
MRS. MOORE: And, quite frankly, Mr.
Stankevich knows that as a matter of law that
would be trespassing. So I do not believe
that this -- given the fact that there's a 5-
foot pedestrian access that goes to the State
Road, that is why it is my opinion that no one
from the south would have permission to drive
their car onto the Tenedios property to access
the 5-foot path when the 5-foot path continues
through Lot 5, that's the Stankevich southerly
property, to the State Road. That is the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
purpose that it was created.
My point when I was asked was this -- can
we -- does the southerly property owner have a
right to enter onto the Tenedios property, I
believe that, as a matter of common law, when
there is nothing in writing that sets forth
what the terms of this right-of-way are, that
common law would dictate and common law tells
you that an access is from your private
property to a public throughway. So the
Tenedios property has a right of access
through Lot 4 and 5 to the road and 4 and 5
have that 25-foot right-of-way that runs from
their parcel, their driveway to the State
Road. There is nothing on record in any of
the covenants that allow Lot 4 and 5 to get
access to the beach via the 25-foot right-of-
way that runs along the south end of the
Tenedios property and Mr. Stankevich has been
saying a lot that has not actually responded
to that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to say
something to Mr. Stankevich right now. You've
given me one copy of both of these things. I
am going to submit to the Board as we sit
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
right here that we are not discussing anything
with you. You can submit anything you want
today because I am not able to pass this
around to my colleagues as we have done while
you are giving us testimony. When you give us
copies for every Board member so that we
understand what you're talking about,
including the copy of A, alright, then we will
discuss it. That will be discussed on January
14th and that's the story. Okay?
So you may continue your testimony, but
don't direct us to anything until you've given
us that information.
MR. STANKEVICH: Thank you. I direct you
to the startling competency of my opposing
counsel as to rights-of-way that, in fact,
didn't even show up on their applications to
this Board and the Trustees,
and the 5-foot right-of-way.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry,
namely the beach
unless we see a
site plan that is different than the one that
the Board has and I have in front of me, both
the right-of-way, the 5-foot path and the
beach parcel per filed map is all shown on the
site plan. It can't be any clearer. Ail of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
these structures have no impact or interfere
with any of the amenities, the 5-foot path or
the beach parcel. In fact, my client's
clearing of the driveway is -- that's what
he's permitted to do. So I think he's
misstating or misrepresenting what the Board
has in front of them. You have clearly what -
there's no dispute that there's a 5-foot
wide right-of-way on a filed map and there's a
beach parcel, but building envelope is nowhere
near or could it be in the beach parcel
because the regulations would never allow us
to develop south of the Coastal Erosion Line
when we have a large, you know, over an acre
to develop in an environmentally compatible
manner.
MR. STANKEVICH: Yeah, I think all you
have to do is go to look at the map that's
presented to the Trustees and it clearly shows
that the claimed building envelope cuts right
across our beach.
Now, I'd like to submit a copy of Exhibit
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I can't even read
It's stapled.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. STANKEVICH: Excuse me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I can't even read
it, it's stapled.
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, unstaple it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is. Now I have
this.
MR. STANKEVICH: Wonderful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you like me
to look through it with this for you?
MR. STANKEVICH: I'm not going to comment
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hope you don't.
MR. STANKEVICH: -- on your shenanigans.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your shenanigans, sir.
MR. STANKEVICH: Now,
Not my shenanigans,
Exhibit C is a
certified survey of Lot 5 where in the 20-fOot
(sic) right-of-way is shown, the 5-foot right-
of-way and the community beach.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I submit again, for
the record, I have one copy --
BOARD ASST.: An original.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is original.
It could be copied so that we could understand
and each board member could understand.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible) supply a
copy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
like me to look at, sir?
Now, what would yo~
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, it clearly shows
the beach that is omitted from the applicant's
site plans.
MRS. MOORE: It's not omitted. Do you
have our site plan that's identified as S1-
July 1, 2009?
MR. STANKEVICH: I have a site plan dated
September 30, 2008 that was submitted to the
Trustees.
MRS. MOORE: But I would say that that is
irrelevant to what we are discussing today
because the Trustees' permit was in order to
demolish the existing house that had been
there and for the activity of the house under
construction. The Trustees may or may not
have jurisdiction over the pool and pool
house. Certainly they would have no
jurisdiction with regard to the garage. So I
don't believe that any of this is relevant to
this Board's consideration.
MEMBER HORNING: If I may, I think Mr.
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135
ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Simon was
the legal
that goes
asking quite a while back to clarify
status of the 25-foot right-of-way
parallel to the southern boundary
and that's of utmost importance in a way
because the question becomes why could not
whoever has access, legal access to this
right-of-way, why could they not drive a car
up there and park and walk down the 5-foot
path to the beach?
MRS. MOORE: I
that because --
MEMBER HORNING:
commonly do if --
MRS. MOORE: --
That's --
actually tried to answer
-- what people would
it is -- if there was a
written document in my client's title and I
read it a long time ago and my memory is there
was no description of what that 25-foot right-
of-way, the purpose of it, was.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, well then the
purpose --
MRS. MOORE: So then the purpose, I
revert to common law purpose of a right-of-way
and the common law purpose of a right-of-way
is to get access from the house to a public
road. That's what this would be -- this would
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
(inaudible).
right-of-ways
right-of-ways.
The Brionn Gloid subdivision has
all throughout that show similar
In fact, I am working on a
subdivision to the west, which the Planning
Board is having us eliminate the use of the
right-of-way and creating our own access
point.
MEMBER HORNING:
would suggest, Pat,
no purpose
applicant,
it so that
at --
MRS. MOORE: How --
MEMBER HORNING: --
Well, that's what I
in a way is if it served
for anybody else except the
then you should seek to eliminate
it's less confusing because I look
I don't --
this thing and I
would say, oh, I'm a fisherman or whatever and
if I had legal access to this right-of-way,
being not the applicant but an adjacent
neighbor, let's say, I would drive up there
and park the car and walk down to the beach
and --
MRS. MOORE: But
MEMBER HORNING:
a driveway for the applicant,
on here?
you'd only --
-- if it only serves as
then why is it
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I have to show what is on
the filed map.
MEMBER HORNING: He doesn't need to have
that right-of-way, he already has one.
MRS. MOORE: The only one -- the only way
that that could ultimately be determined may
be through a court action and it is unfair to
my client to bring a court action to determine
the use of the right-of-way when, in fact,
there -- our variances are standard variances
with this Board. It is -- they are reasonable
variances and we are not building inside --
if the only place we could put a garage would
be on the right-of-way, then I would certainly
say yes, we'd have an issue because we'd have
to have a court determine whether or not the
right-of-way could be encumbered, it could be
blocked. That's not the issue here so it
really is -- would it be -- we tried to work
with Mr. Stankevich to buy the right-of-way or
eliminate the right-of-way because in our
opinion there was no purpose for it. Again,
the Brionn Gloid subdivision anticipated
further development of properties and in the
70s the Planning Board often times created
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
spur roads. So it is likely that the Planning
Board was considering this as a potential
through road, yes, but given that the State
now owns the property to the east, it's a
right-of-way I continue and have to show it on
the map, but its practical use is limited.
So even if you -- the person who buys Lot
5 and Mr. Stankevich does not sell it to the
County as he claims he might because the price
could be quite different than what Mr.
Stankevich would be willing to sell it for, so
we can't count on that. Let's assume that the
owner of Lot 5 comes in and loves to fish and
decides that he's going to use this 25-foot
right-of-way for purposes of a car and park.
And where is he going to park? In the right-
of-way? I'm not sure that that is legal
because a right-of-way is for access only.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, vehicle access.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly. So we could be
looking at somebody that drives their car,
unloads their equipment and has to drive off
the right-of-way.
MEMBER HORNING: Look, Pat, if the intent
was to have a path then the 5-foot right-of-
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
way serves as a path.
MRS. MOORE: But
to --
MEMBER HORNING:
the 5-foot path extends
There much be some
historic rationale or legal reason why that
right-of-way is there and that's what we're
asking you to give us more information on.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is what --
MRS. MOORE: I can't
that doesn't exist.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
It is because that
create something
-- the Planning
Board required at the time.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They had certain
nuances that they required during the process
of developing minor subdivisions and
subdivisions in general.
MRS. MOORE: In fact, for the record, I
did go through the entire transcripts of the
Planning Board records when they approved this
subdivision to look to see if there was any
guidance in any of the resolutions as to what
the purpose of this right-of-way was and I
didn't find anything.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So --
MEMBER HORNING: Okay and then the final
question becomes who has legal --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just hold one
second.
MEMBER HORNING: -- access to the right-
of-way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to ask a
question.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the only people that
would have potentially an argument for legal
access would be Lot 4 and 5, potentially.
MEMBER HORNING: And if you could give us
some information to substantiate that --
MRS. MOORE: I can't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Doesn't exist.
MRS. MOORE: I can't give it, no offense
-- I don't want to say no offense because my
husband hates it when I say that. It is not
relevant to this application. It is requested
-- whether or not Lot 4 and 5 have a legal
right to use it and to what degree is a matter
of hypothetical, at this point, because
there's no document, no documentation that can
give us guidance on that. So assuming the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
worst case scenario that the State and Lot 4
and 5 decide to bulldoze their way, and I
would ask you to go the property and look at
the topography, the reality is that there are
huge boulders that block the access way in any
case. So assuming you can get past that and
somebody to spend the money to remove those
boulders and provide access to the State,
we're asking for variances that are, again, 25
feet from the right-of-way that is a
reasonable distance for a garage that is,
again, it's storage. So it's not a lot of
activity. It's storing of a car and a boat.
You store, you take it out and that's about it
and as far as access of that right-of-way the
extent of its use, if the County buys Lot 4
and 5 clearly that's -- the right-of-way is
eliminated.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, Pat, alright, I'll
just make one final comment because --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just --
MEMBER HORNING: -- you know, it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to keep on
going here.
MEMBER HORNING: Right. If I came over
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
from some other portion of the Town of
Southold and had a beach permit, you're
leaving it wide open that, in fact, I could
possibly --
MRS. MOORE: No, you have no right.
illegal.
It's
MEMBER HORNING: Why are you saying that?
MRS. MOORE: It is a private right-of-
The only people that could potentially
way.
use -- that have permission to use this right-
of-way or potentially could use it, as a
matter of --
MEMBER HORNING: But you're saying you
have no way to prove that. That's what you're
telling -- that's what you said previously.
MRS. MOORE: (inaudible}.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: George, the right
to utilize the right-of-way --
MEMBER HORNING: Yes?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- its origin is in
the subdivision map. So those lots indicated
on the subdivision map as part of the
subdivision are the only ones that have the
right to utilize it.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
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October 29, 2009
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That's
refers to common law, that's --
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- the
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
what -- she
Thank you.
common law.
The question I
have, Mrs. Moore, regardless of what was
submitted to the Trustees at the time that you
were seeking approval for construction of this
house, was there at any time -- let me
rephrase the question.
Is your client paying the taxes on this
beach area that Mr. Stankevich has raised?
MRS. MOORE: I believe so. I don't think
that the Town has deducted any amount of taxes
for this public amenity or this subdivision
amenity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Has your client,
who is presently sitting in back of you, at
any time attempted to block this right-of-way
to cause anybody to realize that this right-
of-way doesn't exist or access to this beach?
MRS. MOORE: I'll let him --
MR. TENEDIOS: Absolutely not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
question I have, Mr. Stankevich, at this time
is, and please in most cases we do not swear
attorneys in as a matter of fact because
you're officers of the court, tell us where
you're going. Tell us what you want us to
understand, okay, and please give us six
copies of anything that you submit so that we
may review them prior to the hearing and/or
don't ask us questions at the hearing until we
have time to study them.
Now where are we going from here?
MR. STANKEVICH: Our position is that we
want the applicant to obey the law. The maps
that they even filed show a 25-foot right-of-
way. It has to be respected unless --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STANKEVICH: Unless, they carry the
burden of proof, there is some unique or
unusual circumstance that relieves them from
their self-inflicted problems.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, tell me how
that affects the area variances that we have
before us.
MR. STANKEVICH: Well, certain of those
variances are triggered by having structures
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
within a certain distance from the right-of-
way and I'm saying there's no need to give a
variance. There's plenty of room on this lot
and there would have been plenty of room to
locate the house and the ancillary structures
within the code. Within the code, but they
chose to go ahead, put this monstrous house,
beautiful house, whatever you term it, where
it is now and they said well we can't move
that because there are cesspools and we can't
move the pool and we can't move various other
structures because we're blocked in. Well,
they blocked themselves in.
problem or yours.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. STANKEVICH:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to interrupt.
MR. STANKEVICH:
place the Board in.
That's not my
May I suggest something?
That's an unfair --
I'm sorry, I didn't mean
-- unfair position to
You're not in the
business of solving all the world's problems,
particularly the ones that are self-inflicted.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we do have a
balancing test, as I'm sure you know.
MR. ST~NKEVICH: Yes, you do. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
mentioned it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And there are six
criteria to be examined. We've discussed a
lot of alternatives with the applicant
including increasing that setback from the
right-of-way. We've heard, I think, a great
deal of testimony. We have some new documents
that we need to be taking a look at. I
believe we've already agreed we will be
adjourning this until -- to receive updated
information and an amended plan in January and
I think we should probably just see what
happens with the reduction of the variances as
applied for in the amended application, which
may mitigate some of your concerns and ours
and we'll have a chance then to review the
material you've submitted and be better
informed for doing a better job of
adjudicating the outcome.
So I mean I think that we've -- I
certainly have no questions left and I don't
see what else we need to be talking about
since it would be a continuing conversation in
January.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to ask one
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question of Mr. Stankevich. If they were not
seeking the variance with respect to the
right-of-way, would you have other reasons for
being here today?
MR. STANKEVICH: Of course, I would
object to all the variances.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, alright.
MR. STANKEVICH: And I object to them
because they are totally unnecessary.
MEMBER SIMON:
question.
MR. STANKEVICH:
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay, you've answered my
-- balancing
No -- okay. Just one
comment, the balancing test doesn't apply to
whether we have enough information or not to
consider something and that's really
(inaudible). We don't know what the status of
the right-of-way is, we are told by the
attorney that clarified it in the record.
That might be a blocker to any serious
consideration we might have on that specific
variance itself.
MRS. MOORE: I would -- I'm sorry, I
don't believe that that's legally accurate.
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We have taken this application presuming that
the 25-foot right-of-way is an access point
for someone; therefore, we have created a 25-
foot setback from the right-of-way to keep the
access open regardless of its use. When you
asked about whether or not somebody can use it
or not, that may be an issue in the court
someday, whether or not the southerly
properties can, but at this time we have-- we
the person has a right to
can only assume that
use it and --
MEMBER SIMON:
irrelevant.
You' re right. It's also
MRS. MOORE: -- our setback is based on
the -- it's not that we are asking to be in
the right-of-way, we're asking to be'outside
the right-of-way at a reasonable distance.
MEMBER SIMON: Fair enough and you could
say then that we also can take your answers or
inability to answer certain questions
regarding the importance of this right-Of-way
to be relevant at least in our use of the
balancing Test.
MRS. MOORE: I --
MEMBER SIMON: We want to --
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MRS. MOORE: I can only answer what's the
use of the right-of-way based on documentary
evidence, I can't tell you beyond that.
MEMBER SIMON: You don't know -- no, what
I'm saying is when I asked the question of
tell me more about who uses the right-of-way
and part of your answer was we don't know, but
we've done our best to find out, that may be
enough for us, some of us, and may not be
enough for others.
MRS. MOORE: Well, then let me clarify.
The only people that would legally have a
right to use this, assuming the worst case
scenario that they have a right to access our
property all the way to the end of the right-
of-way, would be Lot 4 and 5. Those are the
two lots on the south. That is it, that is
the extent of the use of the right-of-way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, now are we
done? Alright, now Mr. Stankevich, in January
you're going to submit to us 7 sets of the 3
things -- I apologize, it was 7 sets not 6.
MRS. MOORE: And would you also provide
them to me as well?
MR. STANKEVICH: Of course.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MR. STANKEVICH: We don't want to hide
the facts when they're in our favor.
BOARD ASST.: By January 4.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need them by
January 4th, okay.
MR. STANKEVICH: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: And also --
MRS. MOORE: I will similarly provide
what we submit to you to Mr. Stankevich. So
BOARD ASST.: It's revised plans and site
plans that show everything accurately.
MRS. MOORE: Whatever ultimately --
BOARD ASST.: You're removing pergolas.
You're removing things and adding things and
whatever --
MEMBER SIMON: What is the date for the
receipt of those papers?
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
We said January 4.
Prior to the hearing date.
The only change on the site
plan that I think is with the pergola over by
the pool. That's the only thing (inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to be showing up on our site plan. Otherwise
we have to --
BOARD ASST.: Oh, well I believe the
pergola of the garage is not shown on the site
plan.
MRS. MOORE: No, that is.
BOARD ASST.: The square footage, is that
in the lot coverage calculation of square
footage.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay. Square footage, I
will give you.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. STANKEVICH: May I, just for the
record, request that the applicant provide, or
the Board, all documents submitted to the
Suffolk County Health Department so we know
what was told to the Health Department, all
documents presented to the Building
Department, so we know what was told to the
Building Department. The documents presented
the Trustees so that we know what was told to
the Trustees and I would like copies of any
other documents counsel is going to supply or
has
supplied to this Board on this application
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
and to ease the burden, I'll pay for all of
that. Just give me a copy, so I'll help, but
I'd like to have a decision made on the full
facts and I think that you want it that way,
also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We will request
that, as you have just requested, to the agent
for the applicants. I have no idea what their
opinion is.
MRS. MOORE: Do you need to have -- we're
not dealing with the house, but do you want me
to give you a copy of the plans -- I'm not
sure that there's any relevance. I'm not -- I
just need to clarify what he --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excluding anything
that has to do with the house. We would like
to see at least whatever you have --
MRS. MOORE: Well, beyond the site plan?
What --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, within the
site plan aspect of what's in front of us.
BOARD ASST.: Where the variances are
requested mainly and how they relate to the
surrounding area.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, no, no, no. I know what
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you asked of me.
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
Okay.
He's asking for things
related to the house that have nothing to do
with this application.
BOARD ASST.: He's asking of you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's asking
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, of me, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail we want
anything that relates to the variances
are before us and that,
encompass the Trustees'
encompass --
of you.
MRS. MOORE: I can give you a copy of the
Trustees' approval.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, and it would
be nice to see the green stamp subdivision,
excuse me, the green stamp survey indicating
from the Health Department --
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I would have
to get that at the Health Department.
that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is involved in this.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah,
And anything else
there's the one open
ceiling area that you were changing on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
garage --
MRS. MOORE: Well, that, yes. Right.
BOARD ASST.: -- we need an amended
disapproval. Yeah, but I just want to clarify
it for the tape recording.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Ail of the items, amended
disapproval, if there's no longer a variance
for dormers on there and if you're redesigning
the building we will need the new diagrams, 7
sets of those also.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: And then if you could send
out the courtesy copy to Mr. Stankevich.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I just want to say one
thing about the previous -- before I got
involved with this project, I did submit to
the Trustees for the house and I believe the
garage was on there in a different location.
That's probably what you're looking at.
UNIDENTIFIED:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
does get approved,
No pool, no pool house.
If this does -- if this
we certainly have to go
back to the Trustees to amend any permit that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
we have now from the Trustees.
MR. STANKEVICH: Uh-huh.
MR. TENEDIOS: {Inaudible) the garage,
for the garages also, beyond 100 feet from the
wetland so it's not their jurisdiction anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not their jurisdiction.
MRS. MOORE: Right and typically the
Trustees ask that we get the variances before
we go to them because if we don't get the
variances we don't have a permit with them.
So it's not --
MR. STANKEVICH: That's why they went to
them first rather than to you. Okay, we
always have an answer here.
MOORE: But that is the standard
MRS.
process.
MR. STANKEVICH: I think what we have is
a standard process of creative obfuscation
here and I think it's worthy that the Board is
going to meet again and get all the documents
in so we can hash this out on the facts.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MR. STANKEVICH: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm offering that
as a resolution.
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BOARD ASST.: Do you want to repeat the
resolution adjourning to a date of January 14
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to, yeah.
I'm going to.
We'll adjourn it to a date of January 14th
inclusive of all the documents that were
requested by Mr. Stankevich that are germane
to the variance applications that are before
us for the sole purpose of getting the proper
documentation so the Board has that.
Mr. Stankevich has --
BOARD ASST.: I can't hear, there's noise
both ways.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Stankevich is
going to submit to us everything that he has
submitted today in 7 copies and that is 6
copies for the board, 1
doing that unilaterally,
BOARD ASST.: Yeah,
copy for -- no, she's
not through us.
what he requests of
you is between the two of you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're submitting
that between you.
with him. Okay.
MRS. MOORE:
So whatever the copies are
Okay.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, 1 copy for
the Town Attorney, Assistant Town Attorney.
Yes, sir?
MR. STANKEVICH: During the months of
January and February I'm going to be in
California doing business (inaudible). I
don't think there's going to be construction
going on during the winter, could we have our
next meeting after February?
MRS. MOORE: That's really a hardship for
my client.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll collect the
information and give it to you and if need be
and if it is needed, we'll have another
hearing. Is there anyone that can come on
your behalf?
MR. STANKEVICH:
that's for sure, but
I'm not indispensible,
(inaudible) --
BOARD ASST.: Right now we don't have a -
MR. STANKEVICH: -- what went on I'm sure
today, I'm not so sure (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we'd be very
happy, as long as you're willing to pay for
it, to give you the -- a copy of the
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transcript that went on today as soon as it's
done.
BOARD ASST.: Can you send us your email,
we'll email it over to you. It takes about
two weeks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Also, there's no --
MR. STANKEVICH: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Also, if, you know,
there's no reason why you
and enter into the record,
physically present, you
comments you have after
alternate proposal is.
MR. STANKEVICH:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
can't put in writing
if you can't be
know, whatever
you've seen what the
Right.
You know, we'd welcome,
you know, in writing comments from you if you
can't be physically here.
MR. STANKEVICH: So do you have a date by
which any alternate proposals would be
distributed?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we just said
material needed to be in by January 4th.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, for the January 14th
meeting.
MR. STANKEVICH: I'll make a written
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proposal or request for further adjournment
(inaudible) my engagements.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Very good.
MR. STANKEVICH: Thank you for your
hospitality.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
Good to see you. I haven't seen you in 20-
something years.
MR. STANKEVICH: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible), it's
just very difficult to keep everything
straight with everything (inaudible) --
BOARD ASST.: You didn't finish the
motion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. So that is
what I am requesting.
BOARD ASST.: Motion is on the floor.
Who would like to second it?
MEMBER HORNING: I'll second it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING %6326 Chris Meskouris
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
124 based on the Building Inspector's revised
July 16, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
a new pergola and new patio (after removal of
deck) with a setback at less than 10 feet on a
single side yard, less than 25 feet on total
side yards, and exceeding the code limitation
of 20% lot coverage on this 6,045 square feet
lot (measured from the Coastal Erosion Line),
at 1400 Sound Beach Drive, Mattituck adjacent
to Long Island Sound; CTM 1000-105-1-35.1."
MR. NOTARO: Frank Notaro, I'm the
architect --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that working?
BOARD ASST.: I can't hear you, I'm
sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to move
that up a little,
MR. NOTARO:
the last hearing.
Frank.
Maybe it got worn out from
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
questions of Mr. Notaro?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
Do you have
I just want to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
clarify that your proposal is to remove the
existing deck and to construct a smaller patio
area at grade.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a wood deck right
now. With a pergola, which is a vertical
structure that is not habitable, which is
creating the -- let's see the existing lot
coverage is now 45.5 percent, typical of that
-- those whole series of houses on small lots
that are cheek to jowl in terms of lot
coverage, but you will be creating a lot
coverage that will actually be reducing that
to 43.6 percent.
MR. NOTARO: That is also correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have side yard
setbacks. One side yard is 0.5 inches -- well
a foot, total requires 10 feet. Total side
yard is 1 foot. Code requires 25. The
pergola is detached open-air structure, just
rafters open to the sky.
Now, the only thing that I would like you
to address is because when you look at the
seaward side of all those houses all up and
down Sound Beach. It is a flat beach, there
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
is no bulkheading, there is none of that.
MR. NOTARO: Actually there is
bulkheading.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me. This
was the highest erosion area that existed
anywhere in Southold Town in the 70s.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I know that's why
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One would not even
know that, I am not bringing this to the
hearing for anybody to say this okay. They
drove 14-foot pilings. I don't know how far
you have to go down to get to that bulkhead,
but there was a bulkhead there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. Now covered by
sand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank the Lord,
okay, cause the Lord replenished the sand,
okay, but there is a bulkhead there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, but there is not a
visible bulkhead. Well, there is --
MR. NOTARO: Partially visible.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Depending, but the point
I'm trying to make is there is a fairly
reasonable consistency in terms of the
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setback, let's call it -- it isn't a street
wall -- but let's just call it a continuous
row of houses pretty much in the same parallel
line. Most of them, all of them, in fact,
looking in either direction, are pretty much
open decks. Some of them, like your
applicants, have second story decks with
pergola in this case. The addition of a
pergola, which would be a very nice
architectural amenity, creates a rather large
vertical structure that will certainly impinge
upon that open feeling when you look this way
and that way. It will be the only house that
will have a substantial vertical structure
beyond the wall of the house itself.
Could you please, you know, give us some
comments on that?
MR. NOTARO: Well, the pergola that was
requested is slightly reduced from the
original request. We actually moved things
backwards a little bit towards the house, away
from the waterside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that the plan we have
before us, though?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: That is the second plan
in other words, that is a reduced --
MR. NOTARO: You're correct in the fact
that most of the line of homes that are there
are pretty much in line right now, but I mean
the pergola as designed is a fairly open
structure. I mean the only thing that would
really be in any kind of view to the neighbors
on either side are the columns holding it up.
You know, its not like we're trying to build
any kind of screening or anything there. It
is basically an open element, visually, and
just again looking at the houses since the
houses are so closely packed together the view
is primarily about maybe a little beyond 90
degrees per home there.
So at one point they're basically looking
at the other house. The pergola again you're
looking through the columns, you're not
looking at a solid structure. Yes, I mean it
does -- it is an architectural element that
we're proposing to be added on.
We did try to keep the columns down to a
minimum. You get pretty large (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Now, one quick point --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
still presenting.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Mike, Leslie is
I'm sorry.
That's okay.
Let me see
what the size of the pergola is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're
looking at that, may I ask a question?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
particular reason why the sitting area of the
pergola is standing in front of the property
on the waterside on the left hand side, which
shows the seating area and the table, couldn't
it be moved back into the normal setting that
exists rather than having it protruding out
into the area which again creates a different
vista?
MR. NOTARO: Well, again, the initial
idea that was presented to me by the client
(inaudible) deck is now. This is where I
enjoy the deck space and I'm looking to do a
pergola here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: So I mean it's kind of
hypothetical, I mean, could it be moved back,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
of course, anything can be done, but he's
assuming that he gave up some parts of his
deck. I understand your question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Is there a
wood deck over the entire right hand side,
which would be the west side, where this
pergola is or is that wood deck just going to
remain and be scalloped out where there'll be
new piles placed in to take away the wood
effect?
MR. NOTARO: No, the wood deck was
proposed to be completely removed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's all pavers now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
marks on the west side are
totally?
MR. NOTARO: Right,
that used to be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
So the diagonal
just eliminated
that shows the area
Used to be deck.
Well, my question
is is it necessary to have this pergola all
across and beyond, you know, from side yard to
side yard on the seaward side? Can it not be
reduced? You know, its really a shade device
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in some respects, but does it need to be over
the entire deck? I mean there are such things
as awnings if you need shade. I mean, not as
attractive as a pergola, in my opinion, but
nevertheless I'm really trying to look at
creating the least vertical mass even though
it is an open and airy kind of structure
there's still a whole series of columns here,
fairly substantial columns and I understand it
from a design perspective, but from a variance
perspective, is there anyway you would
consider alternate relief of some sort, which
is to reduce the overall size of that proposed
pergola?
MR. NOTARO: I may, but
the Board and ask were there
I would address
specific areas --
my client was unable to attend today so I cant
really answer for my client at the moment, but
is there a -- are you referring to primarily
the north side, west, east side that I can go
back to the client on it? You know, again,
this is -- this was their dream, their concept
is being presented here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have 24 feet
just along the house, then we have another 6
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
foot 4 on one side and you've got another 19.5
feet -- no, it's 13.6 feet on the other side
yard, 6.4 on the other side yard, 24 along the
house. I mean it really wraps the whole
house. It's just going to embrace the whole
house this way and that way. So I'm asking to
see whether or not just can we do something to
possibly lighten it. Not to reduce deck size,
that's fine. It's open to the sky and I'm
just exploring that option with you because it
is a substantial structure.
MR. NOTARO: I guess my question again is
is there any specific area in general? I mean
we can address the one on the right hand side,
the west side. Are we objecting to that, as
you said before that is set further in than
the deck {inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not objecting
to it at all. Michael does have a question,
though, Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: What I'd like is to have
something specific that I can go back to them
with.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: My question goes beyond
the specifics. I look at the history of this
and these cottages are pretty much the same
and they all have comparable lot coverage. I
did notice in 1987 this Board didn't seem to
have a problem with granting 45 percent lot
coverage, okay, and the neighbors have the
same thing. They did it with these decks that
they have around them and that's what the
Meskouris have. What concerns me is not what
happened then, but the incrementalism problem
is that if -- given that those decks are
there, nobody's going to make them tear it
down, but its already way out there and I
assume that what happened was that when
somebody built one of those {inaudible) decks
for increased lot coverage and got it,
neighbors said how about me too, and that's
probably how this thing got started.
Now, we're seeing the next step. We're
seeing somebody putting up a building which
pushes the envelope just a little bit further.
We've already got a deck, could we have
something that's really attractive and
comfortable and so for and in the line of that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
I wonder if -- I don't have numbers and such,
but with respect to Jerry's suggestion and in
light of my remarks, do think your client
might consider seriously putting the pergola
in a place where it could be enjoyed, but not
by extending the effective (inaudible)
direction of the house toward the water? I
see the houses, all of them collectively one
after another getting closer and closer to the
water and then maybe from the pergola we'll
go, you know, enclosed porch. From enclosed
porch we'll go to addition and then suddenly
we're going to see in another 10 or 15 years
the houses all moved to where the edge of
their decks now sit. That's -- I don't know
how to stop this except to look at the merits
of a case that comes before us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
for a second because my --
was trying to make is that
let me continue
the point that I
you're reducing lot
coverage, but you're doing so by removing the
wood deck, which is considered lot coverage
whereas pavers are not, and replacing it with
a vertical structure for lot coverage.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now one option
would be you see where you have the seating
area along the northerly and I'm looking now
at the plan --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's on the left
hand side standing in front of the property
looking at the water.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The east side, okay, on
the east side. If that could be scooted back
under the pergola part that is within the
setback of the house, okay, and then -- along
the side of the house in other words, and then
the actual pergola that runs along from side
yard to side yard could be reduced in depth so
that it continues to wrap, I don't mind it
going beyond in the other side yard, but it
would just lighten the whole thing and it
wouldn't be so far away from the house and
then some of the deck would just be open --
the patio rather be open to the sky.
Are you following what I'm saying?
MR. NOTARO: I followed it,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well,
come up and let Leslie show you,
to see it too.
almost.
why don't you
cause I want
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
speak one at a time.
MR. NOTARO: Okay,
seating area here.
Here, I'll show you
Okay, we need to
you're saying put the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Correct.
MR. NOTARO: And you're saying like
pergola here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, this can wrap
like so where you want it like that and --
MR. NOTARO: Okay. Purpose they have big
windows there, it is a sunscreen.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MR. NOTARO: So there is some
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's absolutely fine.
You can do that, but then this part becomes
open, just patio.
MR. NOTARO: Okay, now how far is this
pergola -- how far to the east?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't care if it goes
from side yard to side yard, exactly the way
you're proposing it. I'm just saying --
MR. NOTARO: Okay, something
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
like this --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, but I'm saying
reduce the, no, reduce the depth here to here,
alright?
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To maybe around like so
and then you have that there and have that
there.
MR. NOTARO: Well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, tell me what you
need.
MR. NOTARO: Well, in others words right
now we have 9.7.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. NOTARO: It really should provide
(inaudible) as a walkway, so you need
approximately 4 feet, column, column here.
(inaudible), you know, basically (inaudible) -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. NOTARO: (Inaudible) here so we would
be moving that back approximately 2 feet then.
You know, right now we're at 9.4 and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you don't -- you
don't --
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MR. NOTARO: In other words just at least
to have a -- it's going to look very awkward
to have it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Slammed up against the
house.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need it for
sun.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, what I want to
know is what the maximum depth you need for
the functionality of the (inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: I'm suggesting 6 feet from
the outside of the column to the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that the
rafters run this way.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So then what you would
see is a row of -- you're going to see a row
of -- there's going to be what, just a cap
with just a little overhang on that?
MR. NOTARO: Just a (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because that -- what I'm
trying to do is keep this alignment as much as
possible with the other houses, allow you to
go ahead and put this sunscreening in, create
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
some open patio area.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Move this thing from
back here cause then this thing would be open.
MR. NOTARO: Right. Well, this would
still be the proposed patio.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Oh, yeah, yeah,
but I mean it's open to the sky and then that
seating area just gets pulled back to here.
It doesn't obstruct views or anything. It's
just a way of lightening the impact.
MR. NOTARO: I don't see that as a
problem. I can -- I mean I would say we're 80
percent there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You need to talk to your
clients.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: I mean can I speak to him
and get back to you folks?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, of course.
MR. NOTARO: In the next day or so.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. NOTARO: I don't see -- I think it
still accomplishes what he wants to do in
terms of the seating area covered. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
understand and I will address the concerns you
have about this outgrowth.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: In an amended application
essentially, it could be if your client
agrees.
BOARD ASST.:
alternative plan,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
plan.
(Inaudible) plan, an
not an amended plan.
Right, it's an amended
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to
recalculate the lot coverage based upon that
amended plan.
MR. NOTARO: Well, let's back up a
second. The lot coverage would be the same
because they're putting stone pavers the same
everywhere.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, they don't --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, but the pavers
aren't lot coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, they don't count.
Pavers aren't going to count.
MR. NOTARO: Oh, that's right.
BOARD ASST.: Only the pergola part.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just the pergola.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
So if you're reducing the size of the pergola,
you're going to have a reduced lot coverage.
MR. NOTARO: Alright, now if I submit,
are we talking about another meeting or submit
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think you
really need another meeting as long as we know
what you're doing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not really. I think we
would close the hearing subject -- unless
there's other people who want to comment, but
subject to receipt of an --
MR. NOTARO: Now there's a lot more
people here, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but I'm not
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think they're
for you.
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We'll just close it
subject to receipt of an amended plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The pergola was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
included in the
Notaro?
MR. NOTARO:
BOARD ASST.:
to the pergola --
lot coverage, was it not, Mr.
Yes.
Okay, so the new revision
there's still a pergola,
right, with the revisions or not?
MR. NOTARO: Yes. (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait a minute,
don't leave. We didn't close the hearing yet.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision and
also receiving from the architect the amended
plan including the lot coverage, including the
new Notice of Disapproval which will reduce
the -- should reduce the lot coverage
significantly. Okay?
MR. NOTARO: I have (inaudible) a new
Notice of Disapproval?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know that he
needs a new notice if we're going to give him
alternate relief.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think we
really need a new Notice of Disapproval --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we're going to do
alternate relief.
BOARD ASST.: It's up to the Board. I
leave that totally up to the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I don't think
we need a new -- we just need a new lot
coverage.
MR. NOTARO: The survey changed and I'll
(inaudible) lot coverage.
BOARD ASST.: If the lot coverage were
going up, we would require it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
going to be reduced,
variance.
Yeah, but it's only
so it's a lesser
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to be
reduced. Listen, you have time to do this
okay, remember from the close of the hearing
we have 62 days or whenever you can get it in
we'll address it at the next meeting. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you, Frank.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is what I
offer as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
HEARING #6316 - Louis and
Luba Corso
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Corso versus
Steele and it is appeal %6316. The
culmination of this hearing will be an
adjournment until January 14, 2010 at which
time Mr. Steele and/or his representative will
be given a chance to submit testimony either
verbally or in writing and the purpose of
opening this hearing, okay, is to accelerate
the hearing to that particular point.
Mrs. Moore you, of course, will also have
the right to continue the hearing. So what
we're asking you to do at this point when this
is read is to just give us your opinion so
that we can proceed with it. As you know
these tend to be a little difficult at times
and -- for me in any case and so that's the
story.
Is there anybody would like me to read
this or whose is this
Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"13451 Oregon Road,
one?
This is Ken's.
Cutchogue, appealing
Building Permit #34590 dated 4/8/09 and CO# Z-
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
33674 dated 4/27/09 concerning an as-built
agricultural hoop house for storage on
property owned by Timothy and Jeanne Steele at
13795 Oregon Road, Cutchogue; CTM 1000-83-2-
10.16.
"Letter submitted 10/27 by property owner
T. Steele for adjournment to obtain counsel
instead of closing the hearing. Resolution to
adjourn to January 14, 2010."
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore on behalf of
the Corsos as well as the other entities that
are known at this time the surrounding
properties. I gave you a letter with the
respective entitled owners so it would be
clear. There was some estate planning and
property (inaudible) made.
I'd like to begin -- to me it seems like
a very straightforward issue and I was quite
surprised by the Building Department when they
issued a building permit and a CO for the
structure because it started out that this
building had been in violation and back in --
starting in 2003 Mr. Goehringer's familiar
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
with it,
came in around --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Oh,
that helps because there's been a
but I don't -- I think everyone else
I was on board.
you were onboard, well
little bit
of history there. In '03 Mr.
a building in his side yard,
without benefit of permits.
Steele installed
front yard and
The Building
Department issued a violation. The Code
Enforcement issues a violation and he was
directed to the Zoning Board for variances.
The Zoning Board, and I attached the decision
to my exhibit, in the decision %5618 granted
certain variances and denied certain
variances.
They granted the construction of an as-
built accessory barn in the -- on the east
side of the property and in recognition I
guess at the time his counsel alleged that he
had a agricultural operation there and he
needed a barn. Similarly, he asked for a
variance for other accessory structures. One
of which was a metal storage container which
the Board told him no, that he was not granted
a variance for any kind of storage container.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
As a matter of record and when you go to
the property to inspect, you will see that
that metal storage container is still there.
It was in the transcript they offered to paint
it green. Well, they painted it green. They
-- I don't want to say relocated it because
all they did was, it used to run parallel to
the property line, it got slung around so it's
now perpendicular to the property line.
Nonetheless, it's still there and it's still a
violation. It is beyond me why the Building
Department allowed it to remain there and he
hasn't been directed to remove it.
So that is it, historically. It is
upsetting to me when an applicant goes for a
variance, is told no and then the structure
remains there. There's some problems with
that enforcement. Similarly he built this,
the subject of this application is a professed
hoop house. When he used the plans that were
submitted originally for a much larger 80-foot
hoop house, the barn that is on the east side
of the property they seem to be identical
plans with a different dimension. So the hoop
house now that he has and again if I go back
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to my '03, if I look at photographs from '03,
I see the same hoop house that was there in
approximately the same location. Sometime
after '03 that hoop house ended up getting a
permanent foundation and got built out and is
now currently in what we believe is the side
yard. Somehow his attorney convinced the
Building Department that the code did not
apply to that structure and that is why I'm
here today because I strenuously disagree with
the interpretation of the Building Department.
So I'll start with the code, which is
280-13, speaks in terms of what uses are
permitted in what zoning district and 280-15,
which deals with accessory buildings. So what
I did is I copied -- I'm sure you're all
familiar with it, but I want to be sure you
have it in front of
it.
(Inaudible) is
you when I'm going over
in that (inaudible) zoning
district and you can see that of the permitted
uses you have agricultural operations is a
permitted use. Mr. Steele has a house. He
has a pool, he has a garage. He has a patio
all in the area where -- all is part of this
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parcel and it is on the north side of the
property. He then built this, what he alleges
to be ag structures, what he alleges to be ag
structures on his side yard and if I look at -
- here's my problem. I've always followed
how the Building Department made their
decisions, but I was trying to read from their
permit issuance how they read this and when
you're dealing with agricultural operations
I'm assuming that the Building Department
considered that there are two principle uses
here. We have agricultural, which is the
farm, the growing of things and you have the
dwelling. You have the house that's there.
Where it speaks in terms of that
associated with this agricultural operation
you can have barns, storage buildings and so
on "that conform to yard requirements for
principle dwellings." Not that it is that the
added structure is a principle structure, but
it is only that you're going to apply the yard
requirements for principle structures;
therefore, instead of using accessory
structure setbacks that are smaller, 10 feet
or 20 feet from the property line, if you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
a large piece of property, you're going to
(inaudible) the principle setback, which is
that a large piece of property might be as
much as 40 feet from property line. There is
some logic to that because agricultural
operations tend to be -- they're aggressive
operations and don't always coincide with
residences. So the legislative body, the
Town, when they adopted this code said we
recognize there's a need for agriculture there
are agricultural operations (inaudible), but
in fairness so that there's compatibility
between agriculture and residences we will
apply principle yard setbacks. Okay.
Again, I emphasize it is not a principle
structure and I think that's where there is a
misunderstanding on the issuance of this
permit. So when we go to secondary analysis,
which is, okay you have to have proper
setbacks of a principle structure. Now,
where can they go?
Under 280-15 --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You ready?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, they have prisoners
coming in and they need the courtroom for a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
while.
MRS. MOORE: Are we going to be
interrupted or can we keep going?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. No, we're
going to be interrupted.
BOARD ASST.: We have to leave the room
for the court.
MRS. MOORE: No, I know. Is it five
minutes or is it now?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Minutes.
MRS. MOORE: Alright (inaudible) 280-15
accessory buildings and structures
specifically it says "in [Inaudible] accessory
buildings and structures or other accessory
structures shall be located in the required
rear yard subject to the following
requirements", blah, blah, blah. Well, it
seems very straightforward in our code that
even assuming it's an ag building and I
question its legitimacy as an ag building
because of Mr. Steele's activities with his
residence and other things are --
Alright, we're going to take a little
break?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
Continue.
MRS. MOORE:
Oh, not yet.
They're just looking in.
So we're looking at 280-15
and were looking at structures have to be in a
rear yard. Okay, it seems to be consistent
with every application I've been here with
this Board on today, it is consistent with all
of the way the code has always been
interpreted and more importantly it is
consistent with a permit that was issued on
10/10/07 -- I'm sorry, that's the CO. The
building permit was issued on 5/21/07 for this
property and it's when he built the barn. It
is the permit for the as-built structure and
the building permit, which is # -- let me give
it to you because I have made copies of it.
Permit #33052 dated May 21, 2007, it was a
permit for Timothy Steele, as-built
construction of an accessory building in the
required rear yard as applied for. The
Building Department got it right then. Then
they got a C O 10/10/07 for the barn, which
was an as-built accessory building in the
required rear yard as applied for.
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Again, I am dumbfounded at why all of a
sudden -- the code hasn't changed. There is
no new interpretation, there's nothing. How
(inaudible) accessory structure and hoop house
is a misnomer here because what we kind of
visualize as a hoop house in the ag community
could be like plastic tarp with posts, non-
permanent temporary structure. Here we are
talking about a structure with a full wood
foundation, wood side walls, a full gate door
and --
MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me. You're going
to have to make this testimony in front of the
Building Department because they're going to
have to answer.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I'm doing it -- the
process is appealing the Building Department's
issuance of the permit. I can't direct the
Building Department to be here, but I would
certainly welcome you to ask them to be here
for the next meeting because I am providing
you with the documentation --
MEMBER SIMON: The question is whether
this testimony could be postponed until the
later meeting.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me, Michael.
This has nothing to do with the Building
Department, okay, with them actually being
here, okay. We are hearing testimony which
they can very simply listen to or not listen
to. We can't force the Building Inspector --
the only right that we have to do is to
subpoena the Building
have done that in the
it since then. If we
Inspector, okay, and we
80s. We have not done
so choose and counsel
thinks we should subpoena him, or ask him or
them to voluntarily come here --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I do think that
would be permitted.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just to the extent
that we can hear their side of the story and
also --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And ultimately you
decide who's right and who's wrong.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I was just presenting
at this point documents. I assume that --
certainly if I debated whether or not to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
postpone because the applicant will have a
chance to read the transcript and be here, I
would prefer to have the applicant here --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that -- and
so is the case, okay, with the Building
Department. They can read your presentation
prior to coming here and make a determination
at those particular -- and that is the reason
why we're taking testimony.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We realize it's
taken a little while to get this on. As you
know, this has been a ridiculous schedule this
summer.
MRS. MOORE: It has.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay it has been
extremely busy. We're having 7 hearings on
here starting at 9:40 this morning, we're
still here at 1:30 with no breaks. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Right. No, I assumed you
wanted me to get started so I {inaudible) this
on the record and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what the
purpose of it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just proceed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Okay, sorry.
Again, we were repeating that the
Building Department recognized the need for an
accessory building in a rear yard when they
issued this permit on the same property.
Beyond that, I have additional paperwork, but
I think it would depend on what Mr. Steele has
to say about this as far as his uses of the
property, but I thought that these documents
were --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The uses of --
MRS. MOORE: As far as the use of the
structure --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of the structure.
Okay.
MRS. MOORE: In fact, I don't have the
benefit of going on this property to look.
Ail I can tell you is that he has a
combination of uses, a mixed use property
where he may in fact grow some plants and
nursery stock and he certainly has the
residential nature of that property, but I'm
assuming even for the sake of factual
assumption that he has a legitimate ag
building there that he uses it strictly and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
solely for his agricultural operation, going
beyond that it still requires compliance with
the code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question to you
is would your opinion change if this was a
residential property?
MRS. MOORE: No, it's the same code
conditions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct. I was
thinking you were going to say that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Any questions you
have for me cause I don't want to prolong this
hearing, this has been a long day.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody have
anything they want to say at this particular
time?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it has been
continued so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we thank
you for the presentation.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, it will be
reduced to writing and we will see you on this
hearing at a specific time on January 14.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, there wont be a need
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to notice because the applicant (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Just check with our office
for the time it's probably going to be early
afternoon.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I offer that as a
resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
HEARING #6308 - Barbara Shinn
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Page I just
want to caution you on two issues and that is,
number one, we have take significant testimony
from you, okay, at the last hearing. We have
concerns specifically about what has happened
between then and now, okay, number one.
Number two, we will take short testimony from
anybody that is in your favor concerning this
wonderful application that you have before us
and I say wonderfully because it was the same
situation that existed when Alex Hargrave came
before us and applications that he had for his
barns in the 80s. Okay. I am not here to
hear, I am not here, I don't know if the Board
is here, to hear extensive testimony on
anything that is not germane to this
particular hearing and to the changes that may
have occurred.
Okay, so that's basically -- I'm just
throwing out for some ground rules. I'm ready
for you.
MR. PAGE: Sure. I'd like to introduce
John Rocchetta and he is here to help us
address safety issues that came up and I was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
unable to answer, unfortunately, unable to do
that. There were significant questions from
the Board related to those issues. So if it's
alright with the Board I would ask John to
come up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to use
that mike, John?
MR. ROCCHETTA: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
appearance, please.
MR. ROCCHETTA: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is your
appearance, what are you -- are you an
engineer?
MR. ROCCHETTA: I'm a certified
(Inaudible) wind turbine installer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wonderful.
MR. ROCCHETTA: I'm (inaudible)
consultant for Green Logic and contracted to
install a wind turbine at Shinn Vineyards.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And how do you
spell your last name, sir?
MR. ROCCHETTA: R-O-C-C-H-E-T-T-A.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. It's a
pleasure. What would you like to tell us?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. ROCCHETTA: I wasn't here for the
other discussions. I'd like to know what your
concerns are and hopefully I can answer with
my experience.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will only answer
to the degree of my concern and that was that
wind velocity the ability of this particular -
- to what maximum amount we think -- we were
shown pictures or had the discussion regarding
issues that concern the fact that even through
specific huge windstorms, hurricanes that this
structure still stayed intact. One of the
concerns that I had had was the ability of
understanding that, but not the ability of
having surrounding structures hitting this and
taking it down. Okay, alright, and that's the
concern that I had. That's been one of the
concerns I have had regarding any structure of
this nature. I don't care if it's a monopole
with a, you know, any type of transmission
tower on it or a wind generator or anything of
this nature. That's my concern and this is a
democratic board, they can say whatever they
want.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Sure. It sounds like
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
your concerns are if something is blowing
across the vineyard and it bumped into the
side of the wind turbine would it knock the
turbine down. Okay. I can tell you Long
Island is not very familiar with these
turbines. So we're kind of seeing it for the
first time. Other areas in the country,
they've put this exact turbine as it's exactly
designed here in the middle of parking lots in
Walmart, in car dealerships and things like
that and this is in tornado alley. The
concerns there would be a lot higher than they
would be here. Their sustainable winds in
tornados are much higher. So we designed for
that 140 mile an hour sustainable winds. Here
we only need to design to one point, but we're
going to use the same manufacturing standards
that wouldn't reduce it in anyway.
Could I tell you that a barn couldn't get
rolled over by a tornado and blow into this
wind turbine? I couldn't tell you that nor
could I tell you would that bump into power
lines that sit on the back of a lot of our
houses here. I can tell you that the
foundation is stamped by a New York State
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Engineer as the structure is. I know the
structure itself will not fall based on the
way we design it. What the materials are on
the property, they're built to code at 120
miles an hour. If they do come apart
(inaudible) 2 by 4s, maybe some roofing
material. Is there anything else that you
think that would bump into the side of those?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we have to stop
you at this point. We apologize. You're
welcome to stay or vacate the -- I don't know
what the people will ask you to do.
BOARD ASST.: We'll be reconvening in
approximately half an hour.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll be
reconvening in approximately 20 minutes or so.
BOARD ASST.: Half hour, 45 minutes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Half hour, okay.
(HEARING IN TEMPORARY RECESS.)
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, you were
speaking.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Yes. We were speaking of
if anything had bumped into the turbine and
just to let you know they're designed
similarly to a cell tower or other towers that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
you see in these towns where if those towers
were also hit, they would land on the
structures or property line. So we would meet
engineering standards at that (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we thank you.
I don't think there's any other questions at
this point. Thank you.
Mr. Page?
MR. PAGE: Yes, I'd like to introduce
Chris Baez, Ag Advisory Committee and he would
like to address the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the record,
MR. BAEZ: Yes, sir.
Could you state
sir?
It's Christian Baez,
resident of the Village of Southold. I've
been chairman of the town's Ag Advisory
Committee for about a year and three-quarters.
The Ag Advisory Committee meets regularly,
monthly made up of nine residents of the town
who are involved in various aspects of
agriculture in the Town of Southold and we
discuss and work on relevant issues to
agricultural on behalf of the Town and the
Town Board. Certainly I have personally been
acquainted with the wind energy code going
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
back to
believe,
hearing
its public hearing in April of '07, I
and we have certainly, in that public
that was published in the paper and
the text of the law, certainly noticed that
there was considerably more general or
generous language than there was in the final
law that was adopted in August --
MR. PAGE: If you don't mind I can hand
out to you that information.
MR. BAEZ: Okay, fine. Where we're
coming in at the Ag Advisory Committee because
we have been reviewing this as a group of
agricultural industry operators is the impact
that the law as written has on the viability
of the agricultural industry in this town
being able to use the law as written and when
we started looking at tax maps and the shape
of farm properties out here, which as you all
know are mostly long and narrow, and which
have euphemistically over the years been
referred to as bowling alley farms, with
regard to the 300-foot setback that was
introduced sometime after the public hearing
was closed on this proposed wind energy code
so we started looking at the 300-foot setback
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
to a property line and started looking by
mapping on the various properties how many
properties would qualify as of right without
having to get a variance and while that work
is still in process right now and in progress,
because we hope to have a complete report to
be able to report to the town and the Town
Board that an amendment is necessary in order
to make the wind energy code effective for
agriculture without having to go through an
additionally protracted and expensive
procedure and process. We do and the
Committee has voted unanimously to at this
time recommend that the law be amended to the
tower height of the wind tower plus 10 feet as
the distance from any property line. We feel
that that's justified because of all the other
current towers and what have you that run
across all of our farms especially up on the
Oregon Road area and down across some of my
farmland that I have here in the east end of
Southold that doesn't necessarily warrant a
setback on that part.
The other aspect that does concern us is
that we do see a contradiction between the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
wind energy code as written and the Town's
right to farm law, which considerably predates
the wind energy code. Our principle concern
for the agricultural industry here in the Town
of Southold is that we recognize that when the
land preservation dollars have dried up and
they will, that much of Southold's
agricultural lands will still be unprotected
and our principle concern is that by that time
that we have a very strong and economically
viable agricultural industry here in the town
because that is what's going to keep the lands
open and not put us into the final crop, which
is housing, and I mean it's really an issue of
is this what the town wants. If the town
wants the open farmlands and wants to have an
active viable agricultural industry, then I
think we have to move forward on these things.
Certainly once the mapping work has been done
to the satisfaction of the Agricultural
Advisory Committee we will put the report up
to the Town and the Town Board and will be
making a recommendation to amend the current
law as it is presently written to reduce that
setback and significantly so.
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If you have any questions, I'm at your
disposal, otherwise I'd like to get back to my
farming.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much. Pleasure meeting you.
MR. BAEZ: You're very welcome. Thank
yOU.
MR.
is that
PAGE: Okay, (inaudible) from Chris'
in fact on April 17, 2007 a legal
notice was posted in a local newspaper
regarding the proposed wind energy code that
legal notice did not, in fact, have a 300-foot
setback, but only had the height of the tower
plus 10 feet as is quite clear by the copy
from the newspaper that I've given to you.
Between the time of the public notice there
was a hearing on April 24th, again on April
24th of 2007 the wind energy code was presented
to the public as the height of the tower plus
10 feet and at no time between that public
hearing and the adoption of the law on July
17th was there a new public hearing to address
the substantial change that had been made to
the code by someone. Whether it happened at
the Town Attorney level, the Town Board level,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
there is no record to show exactly when that
occurred nor was there ever an opportunity for
the farming community or the Agricultural
Advisory Committee to weigh in on this new
setback virtually rendering the law, in my
view, illegal. This is the code that was~
finally adopted and printed on August
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I guess the
proverbial question I have to ask you is are
you anticipating moving this tower at all from
your proposed location?
MR. PAGE: That's I think what we're here
to discuss. We've just in the last two weeks
received confirmation from the USDA that we
have been granted a nearly $25,000.00 grant
(inaudible). One of the stipulations of that
grant is that we site it exactly where we
represented to them.
The thing that makes alternative energy
viable today in our community is the eff6rts
that have been made by the FDA {inaudible)
regulates the LIPA in this town, which also
required to give us a rebate. We're at a
place where we can now finally afford to'do
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
this and we are citing it in a location that
has been subject to much scrutiny by other
agencies, by the Long Island Power Authority,
by the USDA and certainly by us (inaudible)
interests. So we have gone to great lengths
to assure that the safety issues are addressed
and I think that we were able to do that today
with Mr. Rocchetta's testimony.
The cost to move it, quite clearly, is
significant, in the neighborhood of $10,000.00
and there is no real reasonable reason to do
that other than a faulty code, which was
passed without legal notice, without public
hearing. In addition to that, in this Town we
do have a right to undertake protective farm
practices code, which in my view gives us the
right to put up structures that facilitate the
processing of our crops as well as the
irrigation of our land as long as, as it says
in the code, that there's no substantial
adverse affect to the public health, safety
and welfare. None can be shown.
Looking at this structure, this wind
turbine has met all of that scrutiny to the
degree that any structure (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
Are there any questions that I can
answer?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I wasn't
prepared to say this, I was hoping that you
would come to an alternate site, but I have to
tell you in all true fairness I work primarily
in liability in things that I do both in my
life here and both what I do in the west end
and in doing that I have to ask you the
question, what is the maximum amount of
liability insurance that you hold on your
property at this time? Are you familiar with
that figure?
MR. PAGE: $2 Million.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it's $1
million on aggregate and $2 Million total?
Okay. I don't know if that's enough based
upon the permit that we have granted you for
the bed and breakfast and that's something
that someone may want to look at, okay, that's
an issue. Okay.
MR. PAGE: I don't understand your
question. (Inaudible) --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we directed
you at the last hearing -- we didn't direct
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
you, we told you at the last hearing that one
of the concerns that I have, okay, is that we
granted a permit for a bed and breakfast,
okay, I have also signed a permit which
happily I signed for a wedding at your
establishment and I understand they're
wonderful, okay. One of the great concerns
that I had was the possibility of something
happening to this wind generator during an
event that may or may not occur in anybody's
winery or anybody's farm. Okay. I assure you
that you spent a lot of time yourself and with
the gentleman in the back of the room
indicating to us that nothing's going to
happen. Okay.
MR. PAGE: As is the case with the
shingles on my roof or cars in the parking lot
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
barn.
MR. PAGE: -- or 100
different freak accidents
Or the roof on your
if not a 1000
that could happen,
quite frankly, and one of the things that we
have discovered through all of this research
is that one of the safest structures, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
safest structure on our property given the way
that it is required to be constructed will be
this wind turbine. It's not the least safe,
it's the most safe. It's the one that has to
meet the highest standard. So therefore, to
question to the safety would be to question
the safety of anything that could fly through
the air from anywhere.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. PAGE: If it's just a question of
liability insurance and we've met that
standard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, I'm
just throwing it out to you, that's all I
could say.
MR. PAGE: No, I understand that it is
quite important to meet that standard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that
notwithstanding that fact. I understand that.
Is there anything else that you'd like to
present?
MR. PAGE: Well, just in relationship to
the right to undertake protective farm
practices code and how that relates there's
been some concern that the variance that we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
asking for is substantial at over 50 percent.
It is my view, my personal view, that when we
are talking about farms, farm structures,
farmland that as a community that supports the
preservation of farming that we need to be
very careful of how we weigh those percentages
against a structure like this. This structure
will be nearly 500 feet from the nearest
residential building adjoining on the property
next to us.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does that include
the tent, too, sir?
MR. PAGE: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The tent, the tent
that you have up? That you usually put up for
these functions.
MR. PAGE: I don't know how the tent's
weighed in on this issue. Quite frankly, I've
never understood your position on that. It
doesn't follow the same kind of logic that I
follow when I think about what would happen to
a tent -- tents in Southold Town, I think, are
required to withstand winds of up to about 60
miles an hour. Any tent that would be on this
property would be devastated, gone, blown
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29~ 2009
away, you know, many, many hours before the
wind speed would get to the point where it
could affect a wind turbine. Those two are so
unrelated it's beyond my ability to comprehend
how the tents would stand and be hit by a wind
turbine. The tent would be standing or could
potentially be standing with people in it
while a wind turbine is falling (inaudible) to
withstand up to 120-140 miles an hour. The
tent would never be there and, quite frankly,
with the wind that you have described and that
you feel we might need to be wary of not much
of Southold Town would be here, but it's more
than likely that wind turbine would be
standing.
You had previously, Mr. Goehringer, asked
that we find a way and I think that maybe
(inaudible) your concern is that the wind
turbine could fall in the direction of another
building. Guide wires can be attached, we
could easily do that. We could also easily,
if it is your concern, I think FAA rules are
300 feet before lights are required, but if
this Board decides that regardless of that,
we could install lights on the tower as well.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just --
could you just rephrase for me because there
was -- the total height of the unit is always
considered to be 120 feet; is that correct?
Is that to the top of the blades?
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you tell us
either at this mike
MR. ROCCHETTA:
turbine is 120 feet
meters to the hub.
starts from. The
about 11 feet.
or the one Mr. Page is at?
This particular wind
tall, approximately 40
The hub is where the blade
blades on this turbine are
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Which they stop
slightly
below the hub, so it would be 120, plus 10 is
logical and is common on a lot of the
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Mr.
Page was discussing the issue of the FAA.
We've had significant hearings on cell towers
here. They are, of course, monopoles, the
majority of them. We have as a Board, I'm not
speaking, required that the majority of them
be lighted, okay, and he has offered that and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
I appreciate that, I have to tell you. Okay.
Mattituck has, basically, an airport that's
not really an airport, okay, but that's a
generous offer. So I thank you.
Anything else, Mr. Page?
MR. PAGE: I have nothing else at this
time except to express my thanks to the Board
for opening -- reopening this hearing and
allowing us to enter this new information. I
think (inaudible) greatly alter the way that
you look at this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was corrected by
saying that one of the reasons at the special
meeting for wanting to open the hearing or
reopen the hearing was for the sole purpose of
asking you what you were going to do with the
electricity. Okay, but I'm still --
MR. PAGE: The electricity goes into the
grid.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Our electricity is directed
straight back into the grid.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The grid itself.
MR. PAGE: Yeah, we don't use it for one
single purpose. It goes through the grid and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
offsets our electric bill, our meter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. PAGE: It turns backwards. So it's
not used to power the irrigation or power
anything in particular, it just goes straight
to the grid.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Also I'd just like to
mention that all of the testimony that was at
the prior hearing is also being entered into
the same record of this hearing.
MR. PAGE: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, a couple of things,
please. Do you have something that you can
received
MR.
course.
submit in writing about the grant that you've
from the USDA?
PAGE: Not with me today, but of
US?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can provide that for
MR. PAGE: I can provide you with the
confirmation of that grant, a letter from the
folks over at (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be great.
That would be very helpful if you can provide
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
that indicating what the terms of the grant
are so that we're clear that they want it
where you're proposing it now and no other
place where agriculturally productive land is
MR. PAGE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- okay, cause that was
something we talked about in the previous
hearing. The other thing is that -- there's
two other questions. One is that you have
presented us, which is now part of the record,
with a letter from -- addressed to you from
the Land Preservation Committee in which --
this is dated September 30, 2009, indicating
that they have reviewed the proposed wind
turbine on property on which the Town owns the
development right easements. Can you -- we
have the documentation, but would you please
tell us in your own words what that's all
about?
MR. PAGE: We went before the Land
Preservation Committee to speak to them about
an alternate location, which would require us
to (inaudible) an additional over 1000 feet
and the cost of that is $10,000.00 locating
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the wind turbine a great distance from the
building where the meter is. Traditionally,
and I think that John can testify, that
(inaudible) traditionally has been sited 1300
feet away --
MR. ROCCHETTA: You have reduced output.
MR. PAGE: You've got reduced output.
We've got reduced upfront --
MR. ROCHETTA: Return on investment.
MR. PAGE: It really changes the equation
quite dramatically and makes -- so the
question is where to find $10,000.00 at that
point. It increases the costs directly to our
farm by nearly 75 percent after the rebate
from LIPA and the grant money, its (inaudible)
lump of money. We worked so hard to get the
number down to a place where the technology is
affordable and that's one of the crucial
things about bringing this kind of technology
to Southold Town where we have so much wind.
Once people start to see this and embrace it,
I think (inaudible) very, very progressive
step forward, will then ultimately create an
atmosphere where the cost of putting up wind
turbines will be greatly decreased so that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
(inaudible) grants will no longer be necessary
and the rebates from LIPA will no longer be
necessary. That is -- we've seen that happen
with solar over the years where the costs just
keep coming down. Even the solar now, they're'
thinking that within 4 or 5 years the grant
money will (inaudible) no longer be needed.
So it's been a good program and one that has
clearly benefitted all of us and that's the
great thing about putting up wind energy
systems is that we take our usage and reduce
it so dramatically so that there's more energy
available to everyone else. So, in fact, we
keep the price of energy down --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me continue to just
follow up on that. From the letter that we
received that you submitted to us that you got
from Land Preservation Committee they have
granted you the
exercise it, to
option number 3,
right, should you choose to
locate a wind turbine in
which is your preferred, if
you need to do it, option it would cost you
considerably more and be out in the middle of
your field, nevertheless, they have approved,
based upon your requesting them to review it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
"The Committee is permitting the structure
within the development rights easement on the
condition that it is compatible with the
purpose of the development right easement and
subordinate to the agricultural use of the
property." There is, therefore, some option
within that easement. The question I actually
have is should you -- what would be involved,
is it feasible to examine the possibility of a
location within that easement that is not
nearly that far out, that would not cause you
to trench that far out into the field, that
would allow us to provide an alternate relief,
you know, than the one currently being
proposed where you move it slightly over.
MR. PAGE: The only -- the only way to do
that would be to reduce the trenching, instead
of having it 300 feet from the property line
at this new location to have it at some number
that you decide. So then I would say 100 feet
of trenching or if its 150, then we're back to
the first location as opposed to -- right now
it's over 1000. So you could save me $7-
800.00, but I still would have to do all of
the other trenching along the eastern side of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
my property to get it in an open area,
otherwise I'm removing vines. As soon as I
start removing vines from the vineyard the
project becomes completely (inaudible),
undoable.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let me sure I
understand --
MR. PAGE: Those vines are removed
permanently. Every vine is a bottle and a
half of -- a bottle and a half of wine every
year for the next 40 years.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there any place --
MR. PAGE: The cost of that is just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Is there any
other -- I just want to enter all this into
the record so that the Board has every
possible option to consider.
MR. PAGE: I appreciate it, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
within the easement
lest distance, less
Should you locate it
area and that requires
trenching, less cost, but
some removal of vines, is there another
location on your property where those vines
could be replanted?
MR. PAGE: No.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, would that affect
the grant that you have, if you locate it
anywhere within the easement other than the
one that option 3 is proposing, which is in an
area that is open, would that --
MR. PAGE: That's not currently -- the
area where we have located it is not under
cultivation. It's not -- it's a road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
it's not
MR. PAGE: It's a farm road,
under cultivation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
you're -- let me clarify,
proposing --
MR. PAGE: To the
no, no. Where
the area that you're
Preservation Committee
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- is within an open
area, not under cultivation.
MR. PAGE: That's correct. That area
does not affect --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The grant.
MR. PAGE: -- the grant.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
Okay, one other question just again to
clarify, the use of the energy generated by
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the wind turbine I believe you stated would be
for crop production and land irrigation.
MR. PAGE: No, that was a misstatement
and I counseled with
it goes to the grid.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
it
(inaudible), it's not --
So it's --
So you're not sure how
comes back because --
MR. ROCCHETTA: I could comment on that.
MR. PAGE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Please.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Whether it be solar
system, whether it be wind turbine, that
feeds
back into the dwellings and when the dwellings
don't need that power it gets fed back onto
the grid so people in the area can use it.
It's exactly the same as LIPA as far as power.
So when you need it, it's there. When you
don't need it, it will get fed onto the grid
reducing the overall load that LIPA sees in
that area.
MR. PAGE: But to answer your question
further, all of that uses for that power, I
think probably the biggest draw on that power,
the absolute biggest draw on that power is
irrigation as far as (inaudible and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
second draw is
winery. Yeah,
temperature.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
temperature.
heating and cooling of our
just keeping the wine at
At a particular
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just have one
question of this gentleman over here. The
engineered guide wires that we were
discussing, that you were
as an option.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
discussing with us
How far out from
the actual
be?
MR. ROCCHETTA:
tower.
stanchion would they be required to
This tower is not guided
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know it's not.
MR. ROCCHETTA: So that actual
engineering would not be done because it's not
a guided tower. It has a
base.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
triangle-shaped
Right.
MR. ROCCHETTA: And when you put guide
wires on a guided tower there's guides on
three sides of it and two different tiers.
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it's something like this. You wouldn't want
to pull directly from a guide wire on a tower
that's evenly based. So what we would do is
we put a guide wire down to a cement block
that's approximately 6 square feet and you
wouldn't make it very --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's not
taught.
MR. ROCCHETTA: It wouldn't be taught.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. ROCCHETTA: You'd have a -- you
wouldn't have a turnbuckle on it, but you
wouldn't tighten it up so it would be pulling
the tower. You would just protect it from
going in one direction, if some catastrophic
accident did happen. That's the way I would
design it and I would confer with the
engineers at (Inaudible) and with the New York
State Engineer that we're using to stamp the
project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
phrase as engineered guide
what?
MR. ROCCHETTA: I would say it would be
safety wire.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Safety wire, okay.
MR. ROCCHETTA: Yeah, it wouldn't be a
guide wire cause you're not guiding the tower,
it's just to prevent it from going in one
direction. Similar to if you're holding a
rope on a tree that's being cut. It has to go
the direction you're telling it to go.
MR. PAGE: I don't think that it's
(inaudible) you know, I'm not engineer
(inaudible) but I think it's your opinion that
it's absolutely not needed, but it is
something that is possible.
MR. ROCCHETTA: It is my opinion,
however, if this is what makes people feel
comfortable and it does add some safety to it,
I'm not opposed to it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the purpose
of my asking that question is the majority of
the storm action that we have that would take
this down, God -- whatever happened, okay,
primarily comes from the west. Okay, and
usually from the southwest, okay, so I mean it
Is that side that is of great concern so that
if the tower was faulted in some way it would
fall back on the vines and not on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
building,
anything
path.
MR.
not on a parking lot, not on
else that was within its immediate
ROCCHETTA: When you -- it's pretty
hard to comment on which way towers fall.
When a hurricane comes you have a low pressure
system, it actually pulls from the northeast
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
MR. ROCCHETTA: -- so it could pull any
direction depending on where the hurricane is,
whether it's in New York City, whether it's
out in Block Island.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But even if it was
on -- if the guide wires were in that
direction and it turned around like that, it
would still fall down primarily on the vies?
MR. ROCCHETTA: That's pretty hard for me
to comment on.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. ROCCHETTA: If we have guide wires in
the direction we want to prevent we want to
prevent it from falling, on this side, and the
cement block is properly weighted, I would
assume -- I've never done guide wires on a
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tower such as this, I don't know if anyone
ever has, but it would have to be assumed that
it would fall not in the direction that the
guide wires are pulling against.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One last question,
please.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to give you an
opportunity to address a letter that we've
gotten from the Planning Board office so that
you can make some comments on that. This
letter is dated August 24, 2009. I'll
paraphrase that -- simply that the -- your
property is before the Planning Board with a
site plan application. Progress has been slow
on this because you're apparently appealing
the Town site plan process with New York State
Department of Ag and Markets and so it's still
in process.
I won't go through all the details, but
the final sentence is the Planning Bcard feels
that locating the structure within the area
that is currently going through site plan
review will reduce the options open to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
applicant and the Planning Board to
successfully complete the site plan
application. Since we have to consider this
letter, I would like to hear your comments
about it.
MR. PAGE: I thought we had addressed
this previously. I would be happy to address
it again.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PAGE; It's an 8 by 8 foot base and
in no way will affect the location of any --
parking. Parking is the only thing that's
left to work out and I'm not sure if -- maybe
Jennifer knows if you guys met with
(Inaudible) this week or not.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's probably going
to be scheduled for next Thursday. So -- but
he is correct. I believe the parking is the
only issue that we have to discuss.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. No, I really
wanted to have you have an opportunity to
address this so that we can take your
testimony --
MR. PAGE: Yeah, we've gone to great
lengths to --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Since they made a
comment, I'd like you to comment.
MR. PAGE: -- to work with the Planning
Board on this issue. There have been gigantic
changes within the Planning Board since we
first applied for our permits related the use
of our property. So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PAGE: -- it has been a long and
difficult process, but we're really close to a
resolution now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Quick question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, sorry.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Just back to the USDA
grant that you may receive, did you contact
them and talk to them about the zoning issue
that we have here before us that if you needed
to install this wind turbine on your or within
your vineyard that you would actually lose
that grant? Did they actually stipulate that
or -- I see in this letter it says that they
recommend that it not be in that, which is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
obvious, I can understand why they recommend
that, but --
MR. PAGE: This is a point system that is
set up and points are lost by locating a wind
energy system on agriculturally productive
land. As a town that supports agriculture, I
think that all of you can understand exactly
why we wouldn't want to do that and we'd want
to site these towers on the parts of our
property that are not in active agricultural
use. So I agree with them and yes, in fact,
we did speak with them about that. Barbara
has been speaking with them about this grant
for many months. There were something in the
neighborhood of 80 hours was it or -- yeah,
maybe 100 hours of work was done on this.
More importantly as to the citing, as
soon as you start removing grape vines, we're
dead in the water. There's no reason to do
the project at all.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: My question is did
they actually say that you would be denied the
grant if you had to install the wind turbine
within your vineyards?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. PAGE: Maybe Barbara can better
answer that question.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MS. SHINN: I'm Barbara Shinn, I'm
David's wife and co-owner. I did work for a
long time directly with the USDA. This is a
federal grant program. Iowa took up most of
the grant money. We all know why that is, but
it was highly recommended to me that we do not
site the wind turbine on viable agricultural
land. It was part of the application. You
actually had to check a box whether it was or
not and give 360 degree photographs of it not
being put there. So I would say, yes, my
answer would be yes, that I was counseled by
our representative in Bath, New York, Tom
Herisky, that we should not site it on viable
agricultural land.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right, but would you
be denied that grant or any grant?
MS. SHINN: We -- it was --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't think I --
See did the USDA say, sorry, you will not get
a grant if you put this wind turbine in your
vineyard?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MS. SHINN: It was implied in the
application and --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It was implied, okay.
MS. SHINN: -- in their counseling of me
and I had to answer no it would not be put on
viable agricultural land. So the grant would
be, I would see it as being forfeited, yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, alright.
MS. SHINN: It's part of the stipulation
of the grant.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
little hard to believe,
I just find that a
but I'm not saying
anybody is misrepresenting this issue here.
MS. SHINN: It's a point system and
everybody is rated. You're rated according to
how you can fit within their stipulations. It
should not be put in a riparian habitat. So
we, in all probability, would not have been
given this grant if it would have been put on
viable agricultural land.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay,
net 100 percent positive that
get a grant?
MS. SHINN: I would say -- I
answer would be yes.
so it's still
you would not
would say my
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, I don't think so.
MR. PAGE: -- deal because we can't
answer that question what is 100 percent or
what is 99 or what is 110.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Sometimes you're looking for
us to be 110 percent right, we can only be as
right as we can be and knowing what's in the
minds of the United States Department of
Agriculture when they give out grants is not
within our ability.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But you will be
submitting a letter indicating that you have
been given this grant. Secondly, is it
possible to submit the grant application?
MS. SHINN: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That way we can look at
what that point system is and we can, you
know, make that part of our deliberation.
MS. SHINN: It's this thick. I will --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you can give us
the classic comic version. You know.
MS. SHINN: Unfortunately there is not,
but I will give you the application.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there a way --
Usually there is an abstract on a grant or,
you know, a summation of some sort or perhaps
you can just let us know what those points are
in the system so that Ken's question can be
followed up on.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, my question is
pretty simple. Would their grant be denied if
they did not get the variance and decided to
put the wind turbine in their vineyard and I
think the USDA might have some leniency into
that if they're trying to promote agricultural
lands.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, usually when a
grant is given, and I've done as an academic
I've written and received a number of grants,
it's based upon the application as submitted
and whether or not one changing that
application would result in the same outcome
is theoretical. I mean you --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- just don't really
know. One thing you might do is talk to them
again and say that this came up and see if
they would put something in writing --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
MR. PAGE: I'm not sure why we'd do --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Let me explain why, as soon as
we start moving this wind turbine into the
agricultural land, we begin removing grape
vines.
MS. SHINN: Which no longer makes the
turbine economically feasible.
MR. PAGE: To get to the point where we
have a 300-foot setback and I think that we've
entered this into testimony previously, we
would need to remove nearly 200 grape vines.
That's about 300 bottles of wine per year at
15 bucks, that's $4500.00 of lost revenue per
year because of where we have sited it.
The wind turbine is only going to produce
$36-4000.00 worth of electricity. Why would
we be spending --
MEMBER SIMON: I --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I see your point.
MEMBER SIMON: I think you said it
clearly at the beginning. Of course, you're
right. Grants are considered individually,
but they're also competitive with each other
and that's why they use a point system, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
you can't talk about certainty, you can only
talk about the probability. The probability
of getting the grant if you get fewer points
for your application in consequence of the
placement is less than it would be if you
didn't have to do that, but you cannot give a
definite answer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: So clearly it's a material
consideration and could have an affect, but
you can't whether it will or will not.
MS. SHINN: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: It could be punitive if
you decide at the last minute to try to
drastically weaken your grant application by
making some kind of change, but that's not the
point. The point I think you've addressed
correctly was that it is a point system and
therefore we're talking about the
probabilities of having a winning score and
you don't want to injure your winning score by
doing something that will have that affect.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Finally, what it comes
down to is there are two options before us
that you've presented. One is as proposed,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
the other would be option 3 in the Town's
easement where there are no -- where it is not
planted.
MR. PAGE: We wouldn't need the ZBA for
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying.
Okay, but that's really -- those are the two
options from your point of view to move it
partially into the easement may jeopardize the
grant and secondly it will cost you because
you will have to take vines out of production.
Okay, so from your point of view, the two
options would be withdraw the application, you
don't need the variance. You're putting it
way out in the field in the easement or we
need to consider it the way you're proposing.
MR. PAGE: At a considerable cost, which
would result in us having to reconsider --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The whole project.
MR. PAGE: -- (Inaudible) at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I understand.
MR. PAGE: We're just not in a position
to write checks for --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand.
MR. PAGE: -- I mean we both feel very
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
passionate about conservation and (inaudible)
to alternative energy, but it has to be within
a budget that we can afford.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course.
MR. PAGE: And the federal government,
Long Island Power Authority, has made this
possible and we would be -- it would be very
sad to see local government, you know, put a
monkey wrench in it and stop something like
this from happening.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Before you close
the hearing, may I just make a suggestion to
the Board. If you're asking the applicant to
submit a copy of the grant completed as
completed by them you may want to suggest
and/or permit that they be allowed to redact
certain personal information because it will
be part of a public record.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
Certainly.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
certainly.
Social Security
numbers, those types of things.
MS. SHINN: Do you actually still want
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
that since we've
and having it be
be put on viable
already said that this grant
-- this turbine and having it
agricultural land is no
longer an issue here?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I suspect not.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
me.
MS. SHINN: But
the --
Well, no, I suspect not.
It's not necessary for
if you'd like a copy of
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want a copy of the
letter saying that you've received the grant.
MS. SHINN: Absolutely. I don't think
you want the whole application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Probably not given what
we've just discussed, I would say I don't need
to see it, but I do want to see that letter
that verifies that you're a grant recipient.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's a good
point, counsel.
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The small --
MR. PAGE: -- less than (inaudible) where
we would be removing more grapevines or any
grapevines.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you also
for your presentation and the gentlemen that
are here with you.
MS. SHINN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you have a
great day.
Hearing no further comment, I make a
motion closing except for the receipt of the
letter mentioned.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Letter from the USDA.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Letter from the
USDA.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll second it.
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 29, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
a true and accurate record of the
equipment and is
Hearings.
Signature
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
November 12, 2009
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