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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-11/15/1993PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS Richard G. Ward, Chairman George Ritchie Latham, Jr. Bennett O~lowski, Jr. Mark S. McDonald Kenneth L. Edwards Town Hall, 53095 Main Road P. O. Box 1179 Southold, New York 11971 Fax (516) 765-3136 Telephone (516) 76~-1938 PLANNING BOARD OFFICE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD MINUTES NOVEMBER 15, 1993 Present were: Richard G. Ward, Chairman Bennett Orlowski, Jr. (late) Mark McDonald Kenneth Edwards Valerie Scopaz, Planner (late) Robert Kassner, Site Plan Reviewer Martha Jones, Secretary Absent: G. Ritchie Latham Melissa Spiro Mr. Ward: Good evening. I'd like to call this Planning Board meeting of November 15, 1993 to order. The first order of business is the setting of the next Planning Board meeting. Board to set Monday, December 13, 1993 at 7:30 P.M., at Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold as the time and place for the next regular Planning Board meeting. Mr. Edwards: So moved. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor. Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? PUBLIC HEARINGS Motion carried. Subdivisions - Final: Mr. Ward: 7:30 P.M. Hiqhpoint Woods at East Marion - This major subdivision is for 10 lots on 20.5668 acres located on the north side of Main Road in East Marion. SCTM# 1000-22-3-5 & 31-4-15. Is the applicant here and wish to address the Board? Southold Town Planning Board 2 November 15, 1993 Richard Israel: I believe everything is in order with the application for approval. If the Board has any questions or anybody else has questions, I'll gladly address them. Mr. Ward: Is there anybody here that would like to address the Board regarding this application? If not, what's the pleasure of the Board? Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make the following resolution that we close this hearing. Mr. Edwards: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion to close the hearing seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Mr. McDonald: I'd like to make a further motion. WHEREAS, Lorraine E. Mandel and Marion Woods Associates are the owners of the property known and designated as SCTM# 1000-22-3-5 and SCTM# 1000-31-4-15.3, 15.4 & 16, located on the north side of Main Road, 624 feet east of Stars Road in East Marion; and WHEREAS, this major cluster subdivision, to be known as Highpoint Woods, is for 10 lots on 21.5584 acres; and WHEREAS, the subdivision has been designed in accordance with Section 281 of the Town Law and Article XVIII of the Code of the Town of Southold; and WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, pursuant to the State Environmental Quality Review Act, (Article 8), Part 617, declared itself lead agency and issued a Negative Declaration on August 17, 1992; and ~ WHEREAS, a final public hearing was closed on said subdivision application at Town Hall, Southold, New York on November 15, 1993; and WHEREAS, upon fulfillment of the conditions of this approval, requirements of the Subdivision R~gulations of the Town of Southold will have been met; and be it therefore, all RESOLVED, that the Southold Town Planning Board grant conditional final approval on the surveys dated October 28, 1993 subject to fulfillment of the following conditions within six (6) months of the date of this resolution. Five (5) paper prints and two (2) mylars of the final maps, all containing a valid stamp of Health Department approval and a notation that a Declaration of Covenants and Southold Town Planning Board 3 November 15, 1993 Restrictions was filed pertaining to the subdivision must be submitted. Items numbered 2 and 3 of the Engineering Inspector's August 20, 1993 report must be addressed. If this necessitates a revision to the final road and drainage plans, five (5) copies of the revised plan must be submitted. The draft Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions has been approved by the Planning Board and the Town Attorney. The Declaration must be filed in the office of the County Clerk and a copy of the recorded document must be submitted to this office. The liber and page number of the recorded document must be noted on the final surveys. The Performance Guarantee in the amount of $221,675.00 must be submitted and accepted by the Town Board. As stated in the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions, prior to the release of the performance guarantee, a maintenance bond for the road and recharge area, in an amount equal to ten percent (10%) of the performance guarantee, is required. 5. The dedication forms for the potential trail system must be submitted. 6. The inspection fee in the amount of $13,300.50 must be submitted. 7. The park and playground fee in the amount of $18,000.00 ($2000 per vacant lot) must be submitted. Curb cut approval from the New York State Department of Transportation must be submitted, or a letter from that agency must be submitted stating that curb cut approval not required. is A letter from each public utility company whose facilities are proposed to be installed in the proposed subdivision must be submitted. Such letter(s) shall state that the utility company will make the installations necessary for the furnishing of its services. Mr. Edwards: Second the motion. Mr. Ward: All those in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Hearings Held Over From Previous Meetings: Southold Town Planning Board 4 November 15, 1993 Mr. Ward: Hillcrest Estates Section 2 This major subdivision is for 20 lots on 22.9 acres located in Orient. SCTM# 1000-13-2-8.5. What's the pleasure of the Board? Mr. Edwards: I move that we hold the hearing open while the applicant pursues the Suffolk County Health Services approval. Mr. McDonald: Second Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. All in favor? Ayes: Opposed? Motion carried. MAJOR AND MINOR SUBDIVISIONS, LOT LINE CHANGES AND SET OFF APPLICATIONS Preliminary Extensions: Mr. Ward: Bayberry Estates - This major subdivision is for 18 lots on 50.0171 acres located on the west side of Laurel Ave.; 140 feet south of Yennecott Dr. in $outhold. SCTM# 1000-55-6-35 & 36, & 1000-56-1-1. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman I move that the $outhold Town Planning Board grant a retro-active one year extension of preliminary approval from June 14, 1993 to June 14, 1994. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. All in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Setting of Final Hearings: Mr. Ward: North Fork Country Club - This lot line change between North Fork Country Club and Frances Rogers is located on Main Road and Alvah's Lane in Cutchogu~. ~CTM# 1000-109-4-7.1 & 8. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman I move that the Southold Town Planning Board set Monday, December 13, 1993 at 7:30 P.M. for a final public hearing on the maps dated August 16, 1993. Mr. McDonald: Motion seconded. All in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. $outhold Town Planning Board 5 November 15, 1993 Sketch Determinations: Mr. Ward: Edith Dillon Edson - This minor subdivision is for 3 lots on 6.74 acres located on the northeast corner of Central Ave. and Munnatauket Ave. on Fishers Island. SCTM# 1000-6-3-8 and 6-4-7. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman I'd like to make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant sketch approval on the map dated October 12, 1993 with the following conditions: Prior to any excavation of any lot, the excavation site must be inspected by a professional archaeologist. In addition, during any excavation, a professional archaeo- logist must be present. There shall be no disturbance, other than that of an archaeological nature, within the limits of the archaeo- logical easement shown on the subdivision map for Edith Dillon Edson. There shall be no disturbance of any kind within the 100 foot buffer area around the wetland shown on the subdivision map for Edith Dillon Edson. This subdivision has been designed as a clu~ter subdivision in accordance with 281 of the Town Law and Article XVIII of the Code of the Town of Southold. This must be so noted on the final subdivision map. Mr. Edwards: Second the motion. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Mr. Ward: Steven & Donna Dzugas-Smith - This proposal is to set off a 31,808 square foot parcel from an existing 29.042 acre parcel located on the southwest corner of County Road 48 and Tucker Lane in Southold. SCTM# 1000-59-10-6.1. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman I'd like to make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant sketch approval on the map dated November 9, 1993 with the following condition: $outhold Town Planning Board 6 November 15, 1993 This subdivision has been designed in accordance with Section 281 of the Town Law and Article XVIII of the Code of the Town of Southold. If Lot Number 2 is subdivided in the future, the yield shall be determined after first subtracting 31,808 square feet in area from the total lot area, because said land represents the clustered open space for Lot 1 of this set off application. Mr. Edwards: Second the motion. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Sketch Extensions: Mr. Ward: John & Marqaret Guest - This minor subdivision is for 3 lots on 13.7 acres located on the west side of Crescent Ave. on Fishers Island. SCTM# 1000-6-1-5. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Southold Town Planning Board grant a six month extension of sketch approval from November 30, 1993 to May 30, 1994. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr.'Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Review of Reports: Engineering Mr. Ward: Anqel Shores - This major subdivision is for 49 lots on 92.74 acres located off Main Bayview in Southold. SCTM# 1000-88-6-1, 4 & 5. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Southold Town Planning Board adopt the Engineering Inspector's report dated October 22, 1993. In regard to Number 3 of the report, one street light is required at each intersection with Main Bayview Road. Mr. McDonald: Second Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Southold Town Planning Board 7 November 15, 1993 Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Bond Determinations: Mr. Ward: Francis Greenburqer - This ~ajor subdivision is for 4 lots on 15.581 acres located on the north side of Eugene's Road; 381.541 feet west of Bay Ave. in Cutchogue. SCTM# 1000-97-3-18.1. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I move to recommend to the Town Board that the $4,000.00 cash bond for the approved subdivision of Francis Greenburger be released. All required improvements have been completed. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. All in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. MAJOR AND MINOR SUBDIVISIONS, LOT LINE CHANGES, SET OFF APPLICATIONS - STATE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY REVIEW ACT Lead Agency Coordination: Mr. Ward: Steven & Donna Dzuqas-Smith. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board start the lead agency coordination process on this Type 1 action. This action is classified as a Type 1 action since it is located within the Special Groundwater Protection Area. Mr. Edwards: Second. Mr. Ward: Second. All in favor? ~ Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Uncoordinated Reviews: Mr. Ward: North Fork Country Club. Southold Town Planning Board 8 November 15, 1993 Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, do an uncoordinated review of this unlisted action. The Planning Board establishes itself as lead agency, and as lead agency makes a determination of non-significance, and grants a Negative Declaration. Mr. Edwards: Second. Mr. Ward: Second. Ail in favor? Ayes: Opposed? Motion carried. Determinations: Mr. Ward: Edith Dillon Edson. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a motion that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, make a determination of non-significance, and grant a Negative Declaration. The property contains a documented archaeological site of some reputed significance. A Stage 1 Cultural Resource Assessment has been conducted for the site and the sensitive archaeological areas have been flagged. An archaeological easement has been indicated on the subdivision map, and all proposed building envelopes have been located outside of the easement. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Mr. Ward: Peconic Homes - This mino~ subdivision is for 2 lots on 45.9741 acres located on the s6uth side of Sound Ave. 1917 feet east of Farmveu Road in Mattituck. SCTM# 1000-121-3-7.1 Mr. McDonald: I make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, assumes lead agency, and as lead agency makes a determination of non-significance, and grants a Negative Declaration. Southold Town Planning Board 9 November 15, 1993 Mr. Edwards: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. SITE PLANS Final Determinations: Mr. Ward: D & D CyclesI Inc. - This site plan is for a 3,138 square foot motorcycle repair and sales building on the 2.6 acre Limited Business portion of a 7.845 acre Limited Business and Agricultural-Conservation District on County Road 48 in Southold. SCTM# 1000-59-10-2. What's the pleasure of the Board? Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a motion that WHEREAS, William Droskoski and Steven DeFriest are the owners of the property known and designated as D&D Cycles, Inc.; SCTM# 1000-59-10-2, located at County Road 48 and Kenney's Road; and WHEREAS, a formal application for the approval of this site plan was submitted on August 20, 1993; and WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, pursuant to the State Environmental Quality Review Act, (Article 8), Part 617, declared itself lead agency and issued a Negative Declaration on October 25, 1993; and WHEREAS, this site plan was certified by Thomas Fisher, Building Inspector In Charge, on November 13, 1993; and WHEREAS, all the requirements of the Site Plan Regulations of the Town of Southold have been met; and be it therefore, RESOLVED, that the $outhold Town Planning Board approve and authorize the Chairman to endorse the final survey dated November 4, 1993, subject to a one year review from the date of building permit. · ? Mr. Edwards: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. Southold Town Planning Board 10 November 15, 1993 ~/ Mr. Ward: Mattituck-Laurel Veterinary Hospital - This site plan is for a 4,598 square foot Veterinary Hospital on 1.377 acres located on Rt. 25 in Laurel. SCTM# 1000-127-2-5.1 What's the pleasure of the Board? Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Southold Town Planning Board authorize the Chairman to endorse the final surveys dated September 30, 1993. All conditions of final approval have been met. Mr. McDonald: Second. Mr. Ward: Motion seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. (CHAIRMAN ENDORSED SURVEYS) SITE PLANS STATE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY REVIEW ACT Determinations: Burqer King Restaurant - This proposed site plan is for a 3,000 square foot fast food restaurant on a vacant 3 acre parcel on Route 25 in Mattituck. SCTM# 1000-122-7-3.1 I assume that some of you here or maybe all of you are here to address the Board on this issue. I didn't see anybody leave yet because of the other issues, so at this point I leave the floor open to anybody that would like to address the Board. We are looking tonight at the possibility of a passing on the environmental review. That is a step in the process of doing a site plan. If the Board makes a determination tonight on the SEQRA process, the process would extend into a review of the site plan. Before a determination is made, a final site plan would have to be approved by the Planning Board. So the floor is open if anybody would like to address the Board on this issue tonight, please address by giving your name. Greg Palast: I'm a member of the Southold Town Stewardship Task Force. Our Chairman, Tom Samuels, couldn't be here tonight. He's preparing for our own public hearings on this Thursday, which we hope you'll have the opportunity to attend, to discuss the recommendations which I lust handed out to you, which I m sure you've all seen before, but I wanted to make sure you had a copy. Tom couldn't make it tonight, but I thought it would be appropriate for me to come in - he's asked me to. As you know, the Southold Town Task Force has issued 34 recommendations after a year of work. 34 preliminary recommendations to the Town, after much long deliberation. One of our recommendations, in specific, is that there be no fast food establishment outside the hamlet centers. I'm looking for the specific number in here. Maybe you thought we were kidding, Southold Town Planning Board 11 November 15, 1993 but we really have given a lot of thought to this matter. It almost doesn't matter what number it is in here, I could find it for you. What's important that it's part of a general overall very thoughtfully, carefully considered program that we have, which is aimed towards placing development within the hamlet centers. It is part of the overall program of the Task Force to determine ways to maintain the rural character of Southold. Specifically, keep in mind that, like your Board we are an appointed agency of the Town Board. Our jurisdiction and our mandate is under resolution to consider the code and zoning map and to conform it to the Master Plan and the precepts of the US/UK report as adopted by the Town. What we'd like to do is make sure that we work together so that we aren't working at cross purposes. I understand that the law requires that any EIS, or in this case an LEAF, consider the character of a Town, in our case a rural character. That concern has been designated to be reviewed by the Town Task Force. We've given it a lot of thought. My understanding is that it's not been addressed in the LEAF presented for Burger King here. One of the problems being that this cannot be ignored. We've given this a lot of thought. Maybe you can disagree with the Task Force's findings or maybe you have alternatives that you'd like to present to us or discuss with us, but I think its always been a problem that we've had that these proposals have not given due concern. That there has been no hard look given to the matter of rural character. And I think that before there is some Negative Declaration here, that the applicant, with the Planning Board, give very careful concern and consideration, take a very hard look at whether this application fits in with the rural character of the Town. And it's been the finding of the Town's Task Force that it would not be within the rural character of this Town. We are not targeting Burger King nor even fast food establishments. We're trying to aim, as you know, development within the hamlet centers. We have a particular recommendation as to fast food. We, in addition to failing to look at the question of rural character, would hope all applications will now begin to address rural character as required by law. And the Task Force is trying to give some guidance on a format to do that. But, we would ask the Planning Board to consider the entire Planning process. And we understand ~nder the law that there is no delay considered in speedily r~viewing an application if we are in the midst of a careful review of the Planning process. We are far down the line. After one year, we have given this 16 page set of recommendations. They will be, in many cases, filled out by (inaudible). Some of these have multi-paged details which go behind each paragraph of the 34 recommendations. What we're hoping is that in coordination with the Planning Board we can make sure that your decisions dovetail with ours, and the Town Board's decisions. Southold Town Planning Board 12 November 15, 1993 In consideration, the entire planning process, which is to reform the code and bring it in line with the Master Plan - and keep in mind that the applicant's been aware that we've been in this process for one full year, so it's not like they have not been on notice that this matter should be addressed. We would hope that the Task Force and the Planning Board could work together, not only as to matters such as this application, but the entire process so that we're not at cross-purposes and that your actions can dovetail with ours. And we can also make sure that the code is corrected so that can be no disparity in our actions. So, once again, we would hope that you would have the opportunity to join us this Thursday on the 18th and go over the entire planning process. This is one recommendation, to not have fast food establishments outside the hamlet centers. I think that therefore, the failure of applicant to take a look at this matter, which is required by law, and especially in light of the recently released findings of the Task Force would mean that there has to be a second hard look taken at this application. Thanks for your time. See you Thursday. Any questions? Mr. Ward: Just that, in your opinion, what do you say is rural character? What do you mean by that? Mr. Palast: Well, we have a beautiful description, I hope you'll come Thursday. But, Southold is unique. Southold is unique. I've been all over the country, as many of our Task Force members, and what you see in every town is a Jiffy Lube, a McDonalds, and neon signs, etc. You see them in every town, but you don't see them in our town. Now, it is not our purpose to create absolute prohibitions. And, in fact, what we are trying to do is direct development, as you are. In fact, we share of the time of Valerie Scopaz is dedicated to your efforts, and 50% to our efforts. So we have a lot in common, including our great experienced help. So, when we talk about rural character, we are talking about maintaining open space, and maintaining growth within small town hamlets. So by rural character we mean no sprawl. We mean no businesses, in the ideal world, no businesses spread across like a broken smile across the North Road and across the Main Road and just willy nilly pock marks upon the open vistas. And so what we're trying to do is consolidate businesses into these central areas. And in particular, certain t~pes of businesses, we have determined in fact by consensus of all 16 members, we actually have a statement which we agreed on that fast food establishments are not within the character of Southold Town, period. However, what we have determined is that in light of our total program, that there would be a way if such an application came forward, to integrate them into a hamlet development plan. And we're not talking about a big delay here. We're not talking about holding people up forever. We're talking about a program that we are completing now working that we, like I say, presented Southold Town Planning Board 13 November 15, 1993 as you know to the Town Board already. And we expect it to be acted on pretty quickly. So, no sprawl, no businesses willy nilly across the Main Road or North Road, maintenance of the open vistas and in particular encouraging businesses which have traditionally have been here, because there will be harm. We have made a determination which is our scope, under our authority (inaudible) that there will be harm if you have businesses which are not within the character of the Town. And the harm comes from the fact that, not only do we like it this way, but we live and die by tourism and by maintaining the beautiful vistas. That's what we have to sell. We lose that - we lose the small town character, and we are out of business. So that's where we find harm. 'Cause this is as much a business proposal for the Town as it is something just to keep it nice. Any other questions? Mr. McDonald: You've said that, if I understand it, that they haven't addressed the specific problem of maintaining rural character. Is that correct? Mr. Palast: Yes. Mr. McDonald: And that's why the environmental form is not complete? The environmental review is not complete? Mr. Palast: Well, my understandings that the character of a locale must be taken into consideration. In specific, what we've determined through Task Force, is that we have a rural character. This is not a big leap of research for us, obviously we have a rural character. Once you make that determination that we have a certain type of character which is characterized by small towns within our towns, which we call the hamlets, and open spaces, which basically would exclude such things as fast food establishments between hamlets, and would be out of character. There are certain types of businesses which we do not allow, even now, to some extent we discourage. We are trying to tighten up the rules to make sure that rules which should discourage these things are a little bit clearer. I'm not sure that these types of establishments are necessarily allowed under current law. But we want to clarify that code. And because this was not addressed - you know some EIS's and LEAF's look at questions of like "Are' we going to lose an endangered species?" - well our c6ncern is not maintaining whether the spotted alligator is safe here. The species that could be extinct is the Southolder. The small town person. And that must be addressed. It's not a question - frankly, it's not a question of whether it would be a good idea to address this matter, it is required. An as far as I know...I must admit I haven't seen the latest papers presented today, maybe they do fully address this matter, so I could be wrong on that, but... Southold Town Planning Board 14 November 15, 1993 Mr. McDonald: I'm still confused about what it is that they're supposed to address. Mr. Palast: They're supposed to address rural (change tape). They are required to address the character of the community. And in this case, the Task Force has determined that the character is rural. Mr. McDonald: What specific things would they do, in your mind, to address the rural character of the area. What are the elements that they would do in their review that would allow them to address this question? Mr. Palast: Well, we would determine for example, whether...that's a good question in and of itself, and I'm not going to claim to be exhaustive on this. In fact, as you know, the Task Force has its own attorney, Michael Simon, who is looking at this very issue, and I hope that you would have an opportunity to speak with him on it. He is researching this very issue of fast food, etc. And so I hate to preempt him. He's the lawyer, I'm not, I'm an economist... Mr. McDonald: Well, traditionally the elements would be things like appearance of the building, the appearance of the signage, the nature of the lighting, the location of the building, the amount of grading on the site, the amount of landscaping and the placement of the landscaping. What are the elements that you have in mind that he would address. I shouldn't say he because I don't even know that - but the applicant would address to answer this question in your mind. Mr. Palast: We have Bob Bayley also from the Task Force here, who is an architect and looking at these matters. We also, have to look at the traffic, we are looking at issues such as advertisement of off-brand items through signage that would be prohibited, we would have to look at such things as whether there would be a lot of traffic in and out, whether this is mainly a take out establishment or eat in establishment and we do not have dedicated take out establishments. We do not want them between the hamlets. The question is whether ...I'm not quite sure, frankly, that this applicant can immunerate (?) the problems. Mr. McDonald: Those elements that y~u just mentioned were all answers. Would that be sufficient? Mr. Palast: Again, I don't want to say that I would know it's sufficient. I would want to talk to both the Task Force people and our attorney. In fact, Bob Bayley probably would have more to say on this than I do, on specifics of what we would look at. So it's more than look. One of the things we're trying to do frankly is to move these businesses, especially with heavy traffic, especially where they may be dedicated to take out food, into the hamlet centers and if it's going to be a business dedicated to take out, or mostly by dollar volume or traffic Southold Town Planning Board 15 November 15, 1993 volume by take out, then we may have a serious problem with it. Can we ameliorate it and keep it at the site? That I don't know. Has it been addressed through architectural amelioration? I don't know. Has it been fully addressed I can't tell you right off hand myself. Also, we want to know if it affects the businesses in town and whether it would take away business from the hamlet centers so that we end up with more vacancies and sprawl by removing businesses from the hamlet centers. So it's not an exhaustive list. I can't tell you right off hand. Any other questions. That's the answer. We'd like to sit down and go over, like I say there's a long list about what is rural character and what are its elements and we still have some way to go, but thank you. Tom Flater: From Mattituck. I was just curious what Mr. Palast defined as the hamlet center for Mattituck. Mr. Palast: That's a good question. What we are doing is - come to the meeting on the 18th - we are going to hold a meeting for every hamlet, for every school district. The people who attend will be asked to, in fact, draw a line to define their hamlet. As you know, in the code their are certain definitions, for example 1/2 mile, a mile from the post office. We have certain areas that are designated hamlet business zones. So we have certain definitions on the zoning maps right now, but we are actually working on that question to...part of the the mandate given to us by the Town is to try to correct the zoning map so that we have a very good idea what we mean by hamlet center, so come the 18th. And I should let everyone know we are going to have hamlet by hamlet meetings, asking people to actually draw their lines and say, this is what we consider the center and we're we'd like to see development, as we understand lt. Mr. Flater: OK, thank you. Mr. Ward: Is there anyone else that would like to address the Board as this point? Linda Levy: I'm the Southold coordinator for the North Fork Environmental Council. I'm speaking tonight on behalf of the North Fork Environmental Council and this is, I think, the third time that we have addressed you on the issue of the Burger King. As you probably are aware, we believ~ that there should be a Positive Declaration on this prop6sal, because we believe that it requires an Environmental Impact Statement before a decision can be made. We have two specific reasons for that, that I wanted to go over with you tonight. The first, which may seem minor, but the more you think about it the less minor it seems, has to do with our new garbage law. Up until now, for example back when McDonalds came in, we were worried about how was the establishment itself going to get rid of it's own garbage. And that has been addressed I understand in Southold Town Planning Board 16 November 15, 1993 the documents that have been provided, that Burger King is going to ship out their garbage and it's going to be out of town. But, our concern is about the trash that is going to be littered on the streets and there is a big difference now between now and when McDonalds' application came in about what the impact might be on our community in terms of the garbage. And the difference, of course, is that we now have a fee for garbage. Now, if somebody goes to the Burger King and picks up their hamburger and their french fries, and takes it into their car to drive and eat on their way to the ferry, for example, they can't just stop at a garbage can and throw the stuff away. They have to somehow locate a yellow plastic bag with the Town logo, shortly, to make sure that it's disposed of properly. I thin that one of the concerns that we've all had about the new garbage law has been illegal dumping in the town, and I think that the fact that we have this law is going to increase trash and garbage on our streets in all cases, and in particular in something like a fast food restaurant. Just because they don't have a drive through window doesn't mean that people are going to be eating in the establishment. For example, in New York City, in Manhattan, there are no drive through windows at any of the fast food restaurants, but people don't sit and eat in the restaurant, you find trash all over the street. And they don't have to pay for their garbage to be removed. So we feel that in light of the change in our Town Code regarding how we dispose of our garbage, this is an issue that should have been addressed in looking at this application. More importantly is the question as to whether or not the public has had an opportunity to really address this. The controversy that's generated by the building of a Burger King in Mattituck - and I think the number of people here tonight is witness to the fact that there is a controversy - is not unexpected and I don't think that it's unexpected to you and I don't think it's unexpected to the developer. Only two years ago, the public outcry against the McDonalds was so great that our own Town Supervisor, on record, in the newspaper, stated that he was going to do whatever he could to re-write the Town Code to prevent fast food restaurants from being in the Town of Southold. Now, as you just heard the US/UK Stewardship Task Force, which is an official committee of the Southold Town Board, has recommended that the code be changed so that these types of businesses would only be permitted in the hamlet business zone. And as you know, is currently zoned general business in t~e location that this would go up. ~ This concept that we want this, both businesses and high density residential units, to be in the hamlet centers has been endorsed by all of our elected officials, as well as, I believe, you yourselves, the Planning Board. The proposed development of the Burger King flies in the face of this planning concept and of this recommendation. The impact of this unplanned use on our community character has to be assessed under SEQRA law. In determining the significance of unlisted actions, the SEQRA law Southold Town Planning Board 17 November 15, 1993 states a whole list of criteria of what has to be looked at and one of them is the impairment of the character or quality of existing community or neighborhood character. Now Mark asked before, how would you measure this, what would they check other than does it look nice or is it a garish sign or a pretty sign or...I think that unfortunately, and one of the reasons that we need an Environmental Impact Statement so that we can thoroughly look at this question, is that it isn't something that can be measured just by whether or not it goes along with the architectural design of the rest of the town. It's something that's somewhat intangible but I think that we all have a sense of what. we mean when we say that Southold has a ~ertain character and that a fast food restaurant may not necessarily conform with that character. We would like to see this addressed, and thus far the issue specifically about the community character has not been addressed. We feel, at the NFEC, that by issuing a Negative Declaration what you're telling us because there is not even one single comment in either the Environmental Assessment Form or in your own consultant's report about the impact on this community character, we feel that what you're telling us is that there isn't any impact. But in fact, we don't have any fast food restaurants in Southold right now, so to say that having the first fast food restaurant in the history of this town, 353 years, that that will have no impact on our character seems to me to be a rather ingenuous statement. I don't think that you believe that and I would like to see it addressed. I believe that there has not been a hard look taken at the issue of the impact on our community character. In light of that, we believe that if you were to issue a Negative Declaration at this time, it would be in violation of SEQRA. We have to take a hard look at these issues, there will be trash on the streets, and our community character will be affected. Only the Environmental Impact Statement can adequately assess to what extent this will be affected. We can't answer tonight what those issues are, that's the whole purpose of the Environmental Impact Statement. SEQRA requires that any agency that declares itself lead agency make every reasonable effort to involve applicants, other agencies and the public in the SEQRA process. In this case, we believe that that mandate can only be carried out by issuing a Positive Declaration. Thanks. Mr. Ward: Would anybody else like to address the Board? before the applicant. Anybody Linda Fletcher: I'm here tonight~'also on behalf of the North Fork Environmental Council. It appears that the core issue here is the community character of the Town of Southold and I would like to expand a little bit on what Linda said as regards that. First of all this issue of the community character is of paramount importance to me and to hundreds of other residents in this community. And it directly relates to the Burger King application which is before you. I'm going to try to refer to, as much as I can, to issues and to facts and things that are Southold Town Planning Board 18 November 15, 1993 stated within the SEQRA law and other documents that you have at your hand, that you're able to get a hold of. A stated purpose of SEQRA is to involve the public in the SEQRA process. And Linda just said this, that agencies are charged to initiate communication early on in the process to identify areas of controversy relating to environmental issues requiring indepth analysis in an EIS. If you issued a Negative Declaration for this application that would effectively subvert this process by removing the opportunity for public concern and identification of relative issues and public scrutiny. Secondly, the determination of significance of an unlisted action is made by application of stated criteria in State regulations. Several of those criteria are relevant to this application. Now, on August 5th I presented to your Board a memo that stated the criteria taken out of NYCR Part 617 that I know you are familiar with, and I took out about 4 or 5 of the criteria that I felt were relevant to this application. I would only like to talk about the impairment of the character of the existing community, at this time. But there are others, and I provided you Board with a copy of this and there were pictures that went with it and I hope that it was sent to Cramer and Voorhis. I don't know. Anyway, that business about the community character, which is in part of that list, that criteria, is certainly relevant here because there exists no major chain fast food restaurant in this town. And, if the presence of this type of business appears, we all know that it would alter the face of this community forever. And yet nowhere in the Cramer and Voorhis report and review of this application is this factor mentioned. And this is a factor which is part and parcel of the SEQRA review, but it's never mentioned there. So I thin~ this is inadequate. I don't think this report is comprehensive enough. Also, I'd like to remind you, and it's also in my report, that the failure of the lead agency to consider whether the character of a community would be altered by a proposed action, was held to be arbitrary and propitious by the New York State Board of Appeals. So, that is an important consideration for your Board to look at. Finally, I would like to direct your attention to the LEAF for this project - Part 2 and question number 19 which is found on the last page of the LEAF. I would like for you to note that your chosen consultants, Cramer and Voorhis, have answered yes to the question of the actual existence or likelihood of public controversy related to potential adverse environmental impacts of this application. They said yes, there is public controversy. But once again, it was never addressed in their review. They don't say anything about it. They say there's controversy and they just let it go. This Board is required by law to take a hard look before issuing a determination. The North Fork Environmental Council calls for your Board to do exactly this. You can do no less and no more, than what the law requires. To do otherwise would constitute a failure to comply with the intent of the State Environmental Quality Review Act. And in the interest of good government and Southold Town Planning Board 19 November 15, 1993 prudent planning, we trust this Board to do the right thing. Thank you very much. Ronnie Wacker: I'm from Cutchogue and I'm a member of the North Fork Planning Conference. I have a distinct feeling of deja v~e here tonight. It was only two years ago that we were up here talking to you about McDonalds and we were promised at that time that the Town would see to it that there would be some limits placed on fast food operations and nothing was done of course. Well now we have a new administration, brand new that's coming in January and we all have been busy in the last couple of weeks filling our the Task Force questionnaire to see what people in Southold Town really want the future of Southold Town to be. I propose that we wait until the questionnaire's have been tabulated and the new administration has had a chance to assess them and to act on them. Let's not be hasty, by any means at all. I hope that whatever action¥ou take, you will wait until after we have our new group in place and in any event I do think that we have to have a Positive Declaration, whether its done now or later or whenever, because there are a number of questions that have not been answered to date% So I hope that you will postpone action. Thank you. Mr. Ward: Anyone else like to address the Board? Jean Mariner: I live in Mattituck and Mattituck is the gateway to the $outhold Town and as such it should be kept in such a manner that our major economy - tourists and the second homeowners - have the ambiance that they want and that's why they're coming here. And by allowing this strip zoning to have continued in Mattituck, you are destroying the gateway to Southold Town, destroying the character of the town and there is nothing wrong with taking some time out. The Town's of Oyster Bay (inaudible) there's legal precedent for just taking time out. You'll be upheld in court. You can just put this in abeyance for a short while until the people of the town have spoken through the planning process with the US/UK recommendations and I urge you to think on that and please don't destroy the character of Mattituck anymore. It's already been fairly well destroyed. Maybe we can turn it around and think that this is the gateway to the Town of Southold one of the last great places in the western hemisphere - and perhaps we could all work towards keeping it that way. Thank you. Linda Miselborski: I'm seventeen~years old. I'm in favor of Burger King. I don't eat meat and chances are you won't find me in that place. But I feel that it would be great because it will produce jobs for us kids maybe, and maybe get off the streets where you go and eat. It will be good economically. As far as the problem with the trash, I called Burger King in Riverhead and I called McDonalds in Riverhead and they say they have garbage around their place of business but they take care of it. They have people who go out there and take care of the trash. I called Riverhead Town about their trash problem and they said Southold Town Planning Board 20 November 15, 1993 ~/ it's not as bad because they have people who go around taking the trash. They have kids, older families go around communities and take the trash, pick it up, dispose'of it and he said - Joe Janoski, I talked to - he said it was basically kids were willing to pick up after the trash and get rid of it. (CHANGE TAPE) I'm sure we could have people help pick up the trash. People are concerned about the environment now, I mean there are some people who litter, but I'm sure a lot of people have stopped littering. I know people who littered and they don't litter anymore because of the environment. I just think it would be a good idea to have a Burger King. Thank you. Mr. Ward: Is there anybody who has not addressed the Board yet who would like to talk? Bruce Isaacs: I have one very specific concern about this application. Maybe it's been addressed, I don't know, but somewhere along the North Road there is going to be a sign, or two signs, one from the east and one from the west, directing people to turn south to the Main Road to come and get their Whopper, or whatever. The poor unfortunate lane or street where this sign is directed is going to change dramatically, particularly in the summer and particularly at times when the ferry comes in. Living on Alvahs Lane, I certainly do not want that direction to come down Alvahs Lane, because I don't want my street to be turned into a thoroughfare. I was wondering has anybody looked into this aspect of the application? Mr. Cuddy: I'll address that. Mark McDonald: Do you want to wait until the very end and do all of it? Mr. Ward: Yes. Is there anybody else that would like to address the Board before the applicant addresses the Board? OK, Mr. Cuddy, I guess we're ready. Mr. Cuddy: I first want to thank the young lady who got up and spoke. I go to a lot of meetings and I'm the sole speaker. I want to address the gentleman that just spoke. You indicated some fear and apprehension, I guess, about signs being posted. The owner has indicated to me, and I state here on the record, before all of you, and into the tape, that there will be no signs posted on the North Road, there will be no advertising signs for Burger King. If you want to know/- you asked - that's the answer. No. I would like to go through a little bit factually, before I get to the law. Factually, I think there are some errors that are being made and I think that maybe some people in the audience have been misled. First, let's take a look at what we're talking about as far as that particular area. To the west of this location is a gasoline service station. Across the road is the Southold Town Planning Board 21 November 15, 1993 Suffolk Times and right next to the Suffolk Times is a used car lot. Audience: Illegal used car lot. Mr. Cuddy: It hasn't been illegal yet. It's been there for a year. Right next door is an insurance agency; right after that is GNS. Across the road from that is the North Fork Bank. This is hardly a non-commercial area. And I think factually, we should recognize what'it is. But I think more importantly, let's take a look a little bit at the law. Unfortunately, we don't really address the right Board; and I've said this before and Mr. McDonald has commented on it before. What you're asking tonight is this Board to take the speculation from the Stewardship Task Force and convert it into zoning. That can't be done. It can't be done here, and it's not done. It may be done someday. I don't know if it will ever be done, and neither do you, quite frankly. But what we're looking at is zoning that's business zoning. We're looking at a business zone that permits this type of use. We're looking at a three acre lot and I think three acres is a good size business lot. We're looking at a piece of property that's going to have a building 140 feet back from t#e road and there's no fast food restaurant that's 140 feet back from the road. You can look anyplace you want, it just isn't done. But here it is going to be done. There's going to be 3,000 square feet, which is relatively small. It's smaller, in fact, than McDonalds. But this applicant has been before this Town for close to two years. The applicant is a real estate partnership, and that real estate partnership has owned this land for years and years and years. And the only difference is that there's now a Burger King instead of a McDonalds. Burger King is before the Board the same way McDonalds was before the Board. McDonalds received from you a Negative Declaration and there's no reason that this application shouldn't. To talk about the impairment of the character of the community is quite surprising to me, because we have done everything that we can to make this a decent building and a decent operation in this particular location. I've been through the facts before, and this is an area that's appropriate to have it. The Town has zoned this property this way. You can't undo zoning. And wh~ you're here tonight asking them to do is NOT consider the zoqing. The zoning is there and I think these people, after two yea~s, are entitled to have a Negative Declaration. They have addressed every concern that the consultant has brought before you. They have addressed every concern that this Board has asked for to be addressed. And I would ask you to approve the Negative Declaration. I think they are entitled to it and I think the time is correct. I think this is the time to do it. I'd be pleased to answer any questions that you have. Mr. Ward: Does the Board have any questions for the applicant? Southold Town Planning Board 22 November 15, 1993 Are there any other questions or concerns from the audience at this point? Debbie Sidlaukis: I live in Mattituck. I would just like to comment on Mr. Cuddy's remarks about the other businesses that are in the area. You do need a gas station. These are all necessary things. You need a gas station. You need a bank. The newspaper is a local business and has been for years. The only thing we don't use is that stupid used car lot. We don't need and we don't want fast food franchises on our Main Roads. I think this was made quite evident back when McDonalds was trying to get in. Unfortunately, we had a Board that obviously didn't care about what the majority of the citizens of this Town want. I hope you will give this more consideration because it will change the character. It will change the character of our Town. I'm not saying that the Main Road in Mattituck is heaven on earth, there certainly could be a lot done. But what is there are necessary for everyday daily living and I don't think a fast food franchise fits into the same category. Mr. Ward: I don't want to limit conversation, but if they're issues that have been addressed by either side at this point, I'd like to limit it at this point to anything new to be brought up to the Board for consideration. Linda Fletcher: I'd just like to ask one question of Mr. Cudd¥ when he mentions that the owner is ready to certify that there will be no signage. Who is the owner? Mr. Cuddy: Cofam Realty is the applicant. Mr. Ward: I'm going to have trouble with this conversation on the tape. If we're going to have a back and forth, I'd rather have it addressed to the Board, and Mr. Cuddy if you would stand at the microphone, if you're going to have to answer a couple of questions, let's make sure it's on the tape. Linda Fletcher: So therefore, is it to be understood that Cofam Realty will own the Burger King, or do they just own the property? Mr. Cuddy: Cofam Realty owns the property it will have also an interest in the Burger King. I repr~.~ent the applicant. The applicant is Cofam Realty. It is going to have a Burger King franchise. I have said before when we talked about the signs, that there will not be signs. I spoke for Burger King and I spoke for Cofam. I speak for them now. For both. So there should be'no mistake. Linda Fletcher: I didn't understand who the owner was. I think that's important to clarify that. Mr. Cuddy: Well that's who the owner is. The owner has been the same person since... Southold Town Planning Board 23 November 15, 1993 Linda Fletcher: I know that, but Burger Kings franchised out to other people who maybe it is this property to sell it to a contract vendee. are often their contract on Mr. Cuddy: No. I didn't say there was. Linda Fletcher: No, I know you didn't say there was. I was asking if there was. Mr. Cuddy: May I add just one line, if I could just have a minute. There was concern about fast foods in this town, and I find that an odd concern when we have 7-11's and dells but more importantly, I didn't go far enough west. Perhaps Subway isn't well enough known, but Subway is sitting in Mattituck, in the shopping center, and it's a fast food chain. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Cuddy, I want to make sure I understood. There is going to be no off site signage. Mr. Cuddy: That's right. Linda Fletcher: I have just one more point that I wanted to make. In the report that I gave you, I would like to emphasize that although Mr. Cuddy was emphasizing one side of the application, the North Fork Environmental Council here is asking for a harder look for a Positive Declaration to take a closer look at this application. We are not asking for a ban on fast food restaurants. I would like to make that very very clear. We want more scrutiny. And to that end, another part of the regulations says that the lead agency must consider reasonably related long term, short term and cumulative effects. I think this is something that hasn't come up tonight, but it's in the law again. Cumulative effects of this action are devastating. We know what it means and it was to that point that I included pictures in my report which I don't have to include. You can all take a drive to Riverhead for cumulative effects on Rt. 58. We all know what they are, and the lead agencies are charged with looking at that in making their determination. So I think we need a harder look. Thank you. Jim Small: From Cutchogue. Even if you were to succeed in putting up a nice cozy little Burger King, something not offensive, within five years I know we would have Wendys, Friendlys, Pizza Hut, McDonalds. It'% obvious this trend would follow. Bruce Isaacs: I'm not a lawyer. He said that they won't put up a sign but how is that enforced? What if they change their mind six months down the road. What guarantee is there that this would last in perpetuity, as they say? Mr. McDonald: process. If ordinance. He's on the record. It's part of the SEQRA he violates it, he's in violation of the site plan Southold Town Planning Board 24 November 15, 1993 Bruce Isaacs: And what's the penalty? Mr. McDonald: would... That's a good question. The Building Inspector Bruce Isaacs: Yeah, but that doesn't help Alvahs Lane for instance as far as the sign. Our street is ruined at that point, or whatever the lane happens to be. Mr. Cuddy: Just for the record, if I may Mr. Chairman. This type of operation requires three acre lots because of the Health Department concerns. You have to also be in the right zone. I believe in this Town looking at the zoning. There probably are less than three other places that could contain any possible fast food operation at any time, and they're not all together. So when somebody says that there are going to be a myriad of fast food places here, it's just not zoned that way. It couldn't happen. Tom Flater: I'll be quick. A little bit of repetition. Ail I'm asking is, after listening, particularly to the North Fork Environmental Council, there are obviously some concerns about properly addressing some of the SEQRA requirements and guidelines. We just want to make sure we take some time here. There's obviously some controversy. We either maybe want to see a postponement of your declaration; a better case would be a Positive Declaration. Let the town speak for what they want. And in addition, Mr. Cuddy had mentioned, that for McDonalds there was a Negative Declaration, is that correct? Mr. Ward: Yes. Tom Flater: Just because two years ago McDonalds got negative, I don't think that's got any impact whatsoever on this. Things change over time. So I really think that's got very little to do with it. Thank you. Mr. Cuddy: In light of the postponement, it is simply to give in to a group from the North Fork Environmental Council. To delay is precisely what people wish when they want to obstruct. This isn't a question of entitlement in zoning. We have the right zone. This isn't a question of coming before you in the last few weeks. This application by itself has been pending for month after month after month. The same a~plication essentially occurred before. This is an application that has gone before the Zoning Board of Appeals. It was approved before the Zoning Board of Appeals. This is an application that has had an infinite number of hearings. And whether this hearing is correct tonight, and I have some doubt that there is this type of hearing, but we've had it and everybody has been democratically allowed to talk, which is fine. But it's wrong for any applicant, whether it's Burger King or anybody else in this town, to be delayed inordinately because some people feel that this shouldn't exist. That's all that's really being said. We don't like this Southold Town Planning Board 25 November 15, 1993 application. But the zoning is for this application and it's been for this application for years, and it's wrong to do anything but to have it approved tonight. Barbara Volper: I live in Mattituck. I am involved with no organization. I am not a member of the North Fork Environmental Council. I am here as a tax payer; as a person who cares about the town. I had no idea of getting up and talking. I have to address Mr. Cuddy and a few members. First of all, the seventeen year old girl who is here, I give her a lot of credit for getting up and speaking her mind. Especially knowing that she was amongst a lot of opposition. As far as Burger King getting kids off the street, if they got the kids off the street, if they got the kids off the street there wouldn't be help wanted signs in every single fast food store that you pass, especially in Riverhead. As far as being a kids hangout, I don't think anybody wants that. The businesses that are surrounding the Burger King property, none of them promote excess traffic with the exception of possibly the gas station. Burger King will definitely promote traffic. You are not going to be able to get kids to work there. They don't want to work for minimum wage. I have three children, the youngest is 15, she does not work for minimum wage. I really don't think too many kids will today. The impairment of the character of this town is...you've got to keep the character of the the town the way it is. That's why people come here. I worked in one of the larger vineyards, approximately 3 years ago, and I worked there for four years. And all the people who came to that vineyard, not once did they say to me, "Gee Barb, where's there a fast food restaurant?" They asked me where there was a cozy quaint little restaurant. They come here because they want cozy and quaint. You put in Burger King, you're going to have McDonalds, you're going to have everything else. There goes cozy, there goes quaint. There's nothing left, we can all go to East Marion. Thank you. Carrie Zenkowski: I'm seventeen years old and I live in East Marion. There is absolutely nothing there. There's nothing from Orient to Southold. I may seem lucky, but when I go and hang out with my friends, I don't like to see them drinking, sitting along the side of the road near a beach somewhere, passed out. I'd rather see them at a Burger King or a McDonalds. It may seem ridiculous, but when you proceed to sit here and say our rural construction of our town and this and that, no matter where you go there is going to be something rural about it. There is absolutely nothing in Orient. I ~orked at Terry's Farm Stand, that's, at the minimum, blast of the Island. There's nothing there. People come by and say what's to Orient Town? There's nothing to Orient Town but a little deli, a little antique store, a church. There's nothing there. When people want to come to our town and say oh Orient is such a great place, it's because it's just houses and a little community. There's nothing there for kids. Kids from Orient have to travel all the way to Mattituck to visit their friends. If there's someplace between Orient and Mattituck, sure kids are going to find a place to stay Southold Town Planning Board 26 November 15, 1993 and hang out anywhere. But it's kind of ridiculous to be sitting here arguing about fast food restaurants, when you're subdividing land and property that isn't even being developed. There's property across from Porky's Restaurant in Greenport that's been sitting there for I don't know many years, and it's supposed to be a mini mall, but you don't see that being built. I don't see any small businesses being put in there. There's places across from North Fork Deli and Bagels Plus and Davals. Those businesses went out, they're all closed up. There's a billiards place, kids used to go down and play pool, now there's nothing at all. I go and I hang out in Riverhead, now there's a Taco Bell opening up. You'll see the majority of Greenport, Southold and Mattituck students going there to hang out with friends that they meet from other places because there is other stuff to do on the south fork and up the Island. Mr. Ward: I would like to just take a minute, for those that are present, for Bob Kassner, the Site Plan Reviewer, just to go through the...there are a number of issues that did arise and the applicant did address, and I thought at least for the record tonight that, Bob if you would, just run through those particular issues that were addressed by the environmental review and the Planning Board and others in terms of what has been done by the applicant. Mr. Kassner: As you all know, we did a coordinated review on this. So all the involved agents had input and we sent it to our environmental consultants for their recommendations. The environmental consultants came back to us after due consideration of all the inputs, including a cumulative traffic study, and stated that a Negative Declaration was in order, with the following provisions and. extra data. And what they asked for was sign details. As we all know, the standard Burger King sign is a very large, plastic, internally lit sign. The proposed sign that Burger King intends to present is a wood carved sign with flood lighting. Not the standard plastic Burger King sign. We had some concerns, and they had some concerns about garbage disposal. We have a letter from the applicant stating that all garbage will be trucked out of the site, not going to the transfer station at the landfill. We had some architectural concerns about the building. It has four doghouses; it's very colonial. Recently, we asked for double hung windows to give it a ~ore colonial, more architecturaly significant compatible facade, and that was incorporated into the plan. We had some concerns about the slope. As you all know, if you've gone by this, there's a very steep slope in the front. And we were concerned about some of the erosion into the Main Rd., that is State Rt. 25. The applicant has provided ground cover and has reduced the slope and other types of mitigation measures to Southold Town Planning Board 27 November 15, 1993 reduce this, and during construction will put hay bales and other types of things to prevent the erosion into'the Main Rd. Our environmental consultants had some concerns about the number of trips in the traffic study. And incidentally, it was brought out before, we did a cumulative traffic impact study. We not only included Burger King, but we included Dunkin Donuts and we included North Fork Bank in this cumulative traffic study, to see what the total impact would be on Rt. 25, and that was considered. The major thing was that the 86 seats in this restaurant, there was some controversy whether that was used in the traffic study, and it was. We had some concerns about lighting. Ail lighting is going to be colonial lantern type lighting on 12 foot stanchions and the signs will be lit by floodlights, not internal lighting. So these were some of the concerns that the environmental consultants presented to us and I presented to the applicant and received, what I think, was satisfactory input. Mr. Ward: Bob mentioned a little bit about the architecture and the architect is here,I don't know Mr. Cuddy if you want him to address any of these issues while he's here. Donald Denis: My office is in Aquebogue. I don't know if you're familiar with my office, but it's in character with the community of Aquebogue. And I'm also conscious of what the people in the community are talking about. We've done everything possible within the confines of the site to make the building appropriate for the area. It's a very small building, I think some of you people may live in a house that's bigger than the building. It's 3,000 square feet. It's not a large structure, it's one story. It has a pitched roof, it has the doghouses in the front, which are colonial. It has double hung windows which was insisted upon by the Board here, with transoms, they're all divided into millions. There is no drive-in facility. It's a three acre site and a 3,000 square foot building. I think what you're comparing in character is places like Syosset and Huntington which are building fast food places on 100 foot wide lots. This lot is three acres. This is a large piece of property and it's set back, as Mr. Cuddy said, 140 feet from the road. I don't think that you can find a fast food restaurant anywhere that's set back this distan~ from the highway. I know there's none on Long Island that f know of. It's set back an almost inordinate distance from the road. It's set back to a point where I think it puts the applicant at a disadvantage of trying to have a commercial installation there that will be noticed by the people going by. (CHANGE TAPE). The signage has been reduced to the minimum size. It is not, as Mr. Cuddy said, the typical plastic Burger King fast'food sign. It's an attractive wood carved sign which will be lit from the ground by floodlights, not be neon. Southold Town Planning Board 28 November 15, 1993 So, I think we've done architecturally, everything that's possible. I think to categorize the restaurant as fast food, and say that that necessarily makes it bad is not fair to the applicant. I think we all have occasions when we want to stop to have something to eat and we stop in a place and we don't spend much time. I think the fast food is in the preparat%on, not in the time of eating. If you want to go into Burger King and sit there and have your dinner or have your lunch, and spend a half hour, I don't think it's any different than going into any other restaurant in the community. You can also point out the fact that dells, none of their food that I know of is eaten on the premises, it's all taken off the premises. So I don't really see how this is going to change the character of your community. I'd be glad to try to answer any questions that you may have that address itself to the architecture, but we have made a concerted effort to try to mitigate the restaurant. It really is just a restaurant and to call if fast food I think is very unfair. Are there any questions? Ann Lowry: I'm speaking for both the North Fork Environmental Council and the Task Force. I'd like to speak to what Mr. Cuddy said about you people or a few people, because I think the number of people involved in this are far greater than even the quite full house that we have here tonight. There were enough people so that we were promised, two years ago, that this issue would be addressed by code changes. That was because there was a recognition that a large number, a significant number of people in the town did not want this kind of establishment here. We come here with our frustration, unfortunately we bring it to you, though you are not the ones that broke the promise. But we are here with that frustration, nonetheless. I think it is a question of what the town really wants. And to that point, the Task Force survey did address that in one of its questions and we will be tabulating that in another six weeks, I suppose. And I should think that you would want to have as much in your hands about what the people want, as you could have. Thank you. Mike Commando: I just have a question to proceed my statements. I want to ask you how long do you think it would take after you approve the Burger King, before you would start getting petitions from all these other fast food restaurants and what leg would you have to stand on at that point, after the precedent has been set, to deny them? Mr. Cuddy already used his illustration which was that there is a Subway. So, because %here is a Subway here already, you must allow us in her~. And then you allow them'in there and McDonalds will come and say well you have a Burger King and you have a Subway how can you deny us? This has already been said, I understand. I'm a local business person. I represent no organized group. I'm not affiliated with any group. Corporate American is appealing to your sense of fairness, while small town America appeals to your common sense. It doesn't take long for entrepreneurs to seize hold of an opportunity. This is an opportunity for a business, without a doubt. What your dealing with is an intangible asset - the Burger King logo. What the $outhold Town Planning Board 29 November 15, 1993 North Fork is dealing with is another intangible asset and that's the serenity and the pristine nature of the environment. It's a trade off that I'm not willing to make, and I hope you're not either. Mr. Ward: Is there anybody that hasn't addressed the Board that would like to address the Board? If not, is there anyone else that, before we make any of our decisions, would like to address the Board? Ronnie Wacker: From Cutchogue. I have just one question, and maybe it's been addressed, but I'm not aware of it. Mr. Cudd¥ spoke about the Subway in Mattituck, in the mall there. That seems to me to be an appropriate place for a fast food restaurant, and I wonder why Burger King has not decided to locate in such a situation or in another mall area in Cutchogue, or wherever. Because I think people would be more accepting of it, if it is within the hamlet district. Mr. Cuddy: Can I answer that? Again, I think the problem is, and I first of all want to say that the reason that I referred to Subway is because it was so emphatically said that there was no fast food restaurant. But, more importantly, to answer your question, Burger King has had, through the owner, an opportunity through zoning, to go into this locale. When property is zoned, you can use if for a purpose. What you're saying is, don't use it the way it is zoned; let's speculate on what might happen in two months, or four months, or sometime when the Stewardship Task Force gets through with what it's doing, then perhaps we'll have a change, and perhaps we won't have a change. But let's just put it off and let's not recognize zoning. Zoning is the right that everyone of us has in this room to use property in a certain way. The applicant has that right, now, to use the property. And I am surprised at all the adults here, not the youngsters, but the adults, who keep saying don't think about zoning. Zoning is what the law is. I have to abide by it. You have to abide by it. All of us have to abide by it. The property is legally zoned this way. The reason they want to use the property is because this is the place that they believe is appropriate for their particular type of operation. They haven't found any other place. They've been doing this, through the owner, for close to two years. They have a right to do it. There's nothing we should apologize for. There's nothin9 I should apologize for. This is what zoning allows us to do. ~ This is what local government allows us to do. Someday you may change that. But when it's not changed, I would ask all of you to at least recognize it for what it is, and that is the right to use your own property. That should never be taken away. Unidentified person: That doesn't answer the question. Mr. Cuddy: Now, if you don't think I've answered the question, tell me how you would like me to answer the question. Southold Town Planning Board 30 November 15, 1993 Unidentified person: The question simply sir is why doesn't Burger King go into a shopping mall like the other fast food place? Mr. Cuddy: Because it thinks this is an appropriate place and that's what I just said, for it's operation, as opposed to that type of locale. It believes it will economically do better in that particular locale. It believes it can build a building that will be attractive and will be useful to it. That's why it's there. And it's allowed to do that. Believe it or not, it's allowed. Ronnie Wacker: Well, in one of the malls around, I think you would have more traffic than what you would have on the Main Rd. because you would have people who would be going in the mall for other purposes and they decide, oh I'll stop and get a bite. So, what my question was, was had Burger King thought about moving into the mall because there's certainly enough empty stores in the mall. Mr. Cuddy: There's one other big problem with restaurants going into any mall and that is that the Health Department requirements are onerous. That's the reason that we have three acres of land. Three acres of land is used to put in all the facilities that we need to satisfy the Health Department. We can't do that if we go to the shopping mall. Ronnie Wacker: Well how would Subway be able to handle that? They must have the same problems. Mr. Cuddy: We may be able to get one...no, not necessarily, because first of all their size is much smaller, number one, and number two, you can, in some places get in with a smaller number of pools and other things. You couldn't do that if you put two or three of them in Mattituck shopping center. That just couldn't happen, if that's what your idea is. It'll never happen. Ronnie Wacker: Well, alright, that answer seems reasonable. But it seems to me that if this were to be approved, or if it were to receive a Negative Declaration, that the applicant would be taking advantage of the problems in zoning that we have had in this town in the last four or six years, I guess. We are aware now, we did something about it a couple of years ago. We brought in some people from England and part~ of the United States to look over our situation to tell u~ what was wrong. And we found out and the Town at that time, the administration, agreed that we should follow these recommendations. Of course, in the interim now nothing has been done. And we were all very hopeful at the time. But here we are at the point where some people who have been studying these problems and who are quite reasonable and knowledgeable, have said that they are very concerned about the US/UK recommendations, we have a task to do something that will be constructive to the town. And I hate to see a recommendation that would be brought down now, when we have, just in two months, Southold Town Planning Board 31 November 15, 1993 a whole new administration that may change our future. So I hope you'll keep that in mind. Thanks. Linda Levy: I just wanted to reiterate for one minute, that the point is not that we're saying that the zoning right now does not allow fast food and that we don't want a fast food. The reason that everyone is here and is so concerned, and the reason that the Task Force has made this recommendation is because it is not in keeping with the character of the town to have this fast food restaurant in this particular location, and that is why we are saying that the only way for an adequate understanding of what the implications of this fast food restaurant might be would be to give a Positive Declaration to this project, so that a full environmental impact statement that will take into account all of these issues, will be developed. I cannot refute the fact that it is zoned for fast food right now. Maybe it won't be zoned that way in the future, but even if it is, regardless of whether they change the zoning or not, I would still believe that we would need to have a Positive Declaration and a full environmental impact statement before approving this type of establishment in Southold. Mr. Ward: Is there anyone else tonight? Anybody that hasn't spoken, we really don't want to go back and forth over the same issues. Linda Fletcher: I would like to ask you all a question. It's been my experience that as you drive through these alleys, that Burger King has a really nice thing that they offer to families that is often set up in the front of the restaurant. I think it's called a playground and they put all these toys out there so the kids can play in it. Now, they keep going on and on about how far back from the road this particular restaurant is being set; in fact the architect has mentioned that its almost a detriment how far back from the road it's being set. I'm wondering, what do they have planned next year for that big space on the road, and can there be any conditions, like they've been so willing to sign things like they're not going to keep any garbage in this town, that they're not going to put signs up on the streets of this town. How about no playground? I wonder about that. I can site you court cases in other states where they have gone in and demanded these things. Once they get there they say, yeah, we'll do what you want, we're real happy to do what you want, and a year later they'~e back in; they want the drive through, they want this, they want that. And you talk about law suits, that's when they start to get nasty. It's on the record, it's documented and I'd just like to know can you say something...I mean if you're accepting things about the garbage and signage, what about the playground? Mr. Ward: Well, if there was a playground, it would have to show on a site plan. Linda Fletcher: Right now? Southold Town Planning Board 32 November 15, 1993 Mr. Ward: It hasn't shown. I can't say whether they're going to amend an application ten years from now or five years from now, and decide to do something else, which any applicant can do. But, it's subject to this Board's approval. Linda Fletcher: But then how can you...if you can demand no signage or get from them right now, no signage on other pieces of property, why can't you ask the same thing about the playground right now and the drive through, I mean I know the drive through is... Mr. Ward: Well, basically right now, the drive through is a moot issue because the Zoning Board has given them a special exception for this restaurant, less a drive through. Linda Fletcher: Right. I'm just asking, could you do that? Are you empowered to ask for that kind of a condition - no playground - or not? Mr. Ward: It can be if they offer to give us a condition of that sort it could be part of site plan approval. Linda Fletcher: It seems to me that when you talk about community character, that would really do it. Mr. Ward: Anyone else? Bruce Isaacs: I assume that because of the promise of no signs, that you do not investigate, the worse case situation is that they would violate the promise, and what would be the effect on the north/south streets. Am I correct that you did not investigate that? Mr. Ward: That's correct. Mark McDonald: We do not investigate the possibility of every violation on any application. I can't promise you he won't turn his site into an airport, illegally. We can't examine the possibility of him violating things that are illegal in the town, because there are so many, that we could never do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Bruce Isaacs: But isn't it easy for an applicant to come here and agree to everything, knowing ful~ well that the penalty is so slight that if go against their p~omise later on, why not promise anything at this point. I mean big deal, what are you going to do slap their hand later? But yet, as I keep saying, it will ruin a side street if they direct the traffic down one of these north/south streets. I'm concerned, because I live on that street and I don't want to turn it into a through street. I think you can probably understand my concern, if you lived on one of those streets. Southold Town Planning Board 33 November 15, 1993 Maryann Huntington: I live in Cutchogue. I'd like to know from the Burger King representative whether a giant inflatable hamburger is considered signage? Mr. Ward: No. Maryann Huntington: That means they can have a giant inflatable... Mr. Ward: No, that is not considered signage. Mark McDonald: Under the current code, they can't even have a flag that says Burger King on it. Mr. Cuddy: Ail things you're talking about that we'd do, under the Town code, We'd have to come back to you. I can't speculate on everything that's going to happen in three or four years. I've told you what I know. I don't expect they're going to do any of these things. If it happens, they're going to have to be back here asking for permission to do it. But we don't intend to do those things. Mr. Ward: Anyone else like to address the Board this evening? If not, what's the pleasure of the Board? Mark McDonald: I'd like to make a comment. There's a feeling that the Board almost always has when there's a number of people that show up, that simply out of consideration to them you should delay the hearing and put it off one hearing to consider their comments. And that's been traditional I think of many of the Board's. I know that we have generally done that. However, in all honesty, in this case, all I see is myself dragging you back here to another meeting. Because although whatever sympathies I may feel for the problems you talk about, general zoning in the town, I don't see how that has any bearing on this particular case. The applicant has met the conditions of SEQRA, as best as I can make them out. I'm sure litigation might prove otherwise, because I don't pretend to be a judge or a lawyer, but we've given it a very hard look as far as the way it conforms to the community. It looks like a house. It's set back farther than any house in the town is set back. They've done almost everything we've asked, through every hoop. In fact, they've done more than the McDonalds application in front of them, which we gave a Negative Declaration to as well. If we were to put every application through its pac~s that this one's been through, you could be sure that the applicants would never question about the thoroughness of a SEQRA review in the Town of Southold. It's been intense. I'm not much inclined to go and drag everyone back to another meeting when I believe strongly...I already know how I must vote on this. It has nothing to do with my personal feelings. It's got to do with what applicants are entitled to under the law in front of me. I don't control zoning in this town. That's not my job as a member of the Planning Board. I don't do any of that stuff. At site plans, my charge is very Southold Town Planning Board 34 November 15, 1993 clear. Here's the list that the Town Board gives me to check against. The applicant comes in, I check it against that list; there's some personal decisions, in this case we exercised them, about the look of the building, the extra set-back in it, the landscaping, the run-off, a number of items that we used our personal judgement on. But I really don't see what more we could ask this applicant about the character of the town, other than not going on this site. And that's not one of the alternatives for me as a member of the Planning Board. Now, every other Tuesday, six people meet in this room who can help you. But they're not the five people who sit here. My job is to process these applications. And at a certain point, if I don't process them, I get sued. And when I get sued, you're getting sued. Now, if there's cause for the lawsuit, bring it on. But if there's no cause, all I'm doing is running up the tab for the taxpayers, for nothing. And I don't see it in this case. I really just cannot see it. We've been over it top to bottom. There's nothing left. They're going to cart the garbage away, anything we said, they'll do lt. They've been very cooperative. My personal opinion is, I'd like to read the resolution and grant a Negative Declaration, but I don't know if I have the support for that, so if you want, I'll read the resolution and we'll see if I get a second. Or, if you prefer, we can discuss it. Mr. Ward: Let's read it in. Mr. McDonald: I'd like to make a motion that BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State Environmental Quality Review Act, establish itself as lead agency and as lead agency makes a determination of non-significance (CHANGE TAPE) and grants a conditional Negative Declaration. Mr. Ward: I'd just like to make a statement also, and concur with what Mark has said and that we as a Board have labored over this particular situation, even up to the present, a week ago, asking for revised elevations on the buildings, and trying to make this small building as compatible as possible with the spirit and nature of the facility. We all, and personally, I have some mixed feelings about fast food coming to Southold, but as the spirit of the law allows, it does allow for it at the present time. If we're going to disallow it in the future, we're going to have to change our code,~and change where we're at with it. I think Mr. Denis, as the architect on this project, has done a fine job with what he's been presented and what's presented to the town. Along with this, we have the conditions of garbage and traffic. The conditions of this resolution will include five or six comments from the State Highway Department, which is going to require certain improvements in the road, which is a coordinated review which they have done throughout the Mattituck area, which are going to be improvements made to the Southold Town Planning Board 35 November 15, 1993 whole road system. To that extent then, if there's anybody else who would like to speak. Mr. Orlowski: Well, I would just to support both Mr. Ward and Mr. McDonald. I mean, I've been here a long time, and this was originally a Friendlys that walked away, and then it was going to be a McDonalds and they walked away and most of you people were here. Unfortunately it was the wrong Board and it's the eleventh hour. I mean, it was two years ago and at that time the Planning Board, I think as a whole, we talked about what to do with fast food restaurants. We realize that, that something should be done. Except nobody listened to us, so we have to move on and do the job that's in front of us with the rules that are in front of us. But, I think that if all of you here sat in front of the Town Board every week, that two years ago we probably wouldn't be here today. Like Mark says, there's only so much we can do with the rules that we have. I'll second it. Mr. Ward: OK. Motion's been seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried. OTHER Mr. Ward: Lorraine S. Terry - Approved 4 lot subdivision on the north side of Main Road. SCTM# 1000-18-5-18.3, 18.4, 18.5 & 18.6. What's the pleasure of the Board? Mr. McDonald: I'll make a motion. BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board eliminate the condition that was required as part of the final approval of the minor subdivision for Lorraine S. Terry. The condition that has been eliminated required that "No building permits be issued until the fire well has been installed by the developer and accepted by the Orient Fire District." The Orient Fire District, in a letter dated October 25, 1993, recommended that the fire well requirement be eliminated as the subdivision is covered by an adequate water suppl~ for emergency purposes. The Planning Board concurs with tSe recommendation of the fire district. Mr. Edwards: Second Mr. Ward: Motion made and seconded. Ail in favor? Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Mr. Ward: Opposed? Motion carried Southold Town Planning Board 36 November 15, 1993 Mr. to adjourn? Mr. Orlowski: Mr. McDonald: Mr. Ward: Ayes: Mr. Mr. Ward: Ward: That concludes the meeting So moved. Second. Motion made and seconded. McDonald, Opposed? There being no further business meeting adjourned at 9:15 P.M. for this evening. Motion Ail in favor? Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Ward. Motion carried. *********************************** to come before the Board the Respectfully submitted, Martha Jones, Secretary