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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
October 1, 2009
9:42 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member ~
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
GEORGE HORNING - Member
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant
Town Attorney
22
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant (Start-12:00)
LUCILLE CAPPABIANCA - Legal Secretary
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
William Penney III %6319, 6336
Robert Swing %6320
Peter and Barbara Terranova %6312
John and Daniella Venetis %6313
Robert and Barbara Lewis %6317
William E. Hamilton %6299
Richard Ehrlich %6322
Marc and Deirdre Sokol #6318
Chester Ciaglo #6300
E and C Property Holding, Inc.
& Cultural Fund, etc. #6245,
Page:
3-25
26-47
48-59
60-111
112-130
131-138
139-161
162-208
209-138
and Educational
6314 239-274
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING %6319, 6336
William A. Penney, III
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Location of Property: 45450 C.R. 48
{a/k/a North Road or Middle Road) and Youngs
Avenue, Southold; CTM 1000-55-5-2.2. Zone
District: General Business B. The applicant
is requesting the following, based on the
Building Inspector's revised August 5, 2009
Notice of Disapproval:
"%6319 - Request for a Special Exception
concerning vehicle and accessory sales, and
"%6336 - Request for a Variance
concerning an as-built accessory shed building
in a location other than the code-required
rear yard."
I suspect, Mr. McCarthy, you are
representing these fine people. Okay, would
you come up and state your name, please?
MR. MCCARTHY: Good morning.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
MR. MCCARTHY: Tom McCarthy, McCarthy
Management representing Tidy Car on behalf of
the shed application. Brief background, we've
got, I feel, a unique set of circumstances, a
unique shaped building and a unique property.
We're a corner property, which has two front
yards. We went for -- one of the reasons why
we're here is to help Mr. Penney with his use
for what he's presently conducting on the
site. We went to the Building Department for
an application so that we could sit in front
of the Planning Department. The Building
Department picked up on our site plan
application that we have this particular shed
on the property. The shed has been there for
many years, since Mr. Penney had a previous
site plan application that was approved. He
felt that the shed was approved at the same
time the previous site plan was approved.
Apparently that's not the case. We can't find
documentation to that effect and that's why
we're here. Although the shed was placed in
its location around the same time that the
construction was completed to the previous
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
site plan back in the 1980s.
This particular building is located
several feet off of the principle structure
where he conducts his business. He has two
structures on this property, one is principle,
and this frame building or frame shed is
deemed to be accessory and it's not in the
proper location, although it's a bit unique
because it is a corner property. We have two
front yards. One is deemed to be a side, the
other one is deemed to be a rear.
The Building Department made the
determination of this particular building is
in the side yard. I believe our zoning code
provides that for an accessory building to be
properly located it needs to be located behind
the principle structure. This one happens to
be behind the principle structure, but to the
Route 48 frontage, and because of the L-shaped
nature of the building it is behind it, but
it's not technically behind it the way that
the Building Department is interpreting the
yards. If this structure was to be made
conforming it would, we feel, have an adverse
impact to the neighbors because it would have
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
to be located closer to the neighbor's
property line and further away from Mr. Penney
which would cause him difficulty because he
has his operations, the parts that he stores,
within this particular building very close to
the other building.
We looked at a few other ways perhaps to
handle this request for a variance and one of
them could possibly be to connect the two
buildings with a very small breezeway or
something between those buildings which would
make it part of the principle structure and
not necessitate this variance. At this point
in time, Mr. Penney is looking to keep this as
a separate shed and not connect the buildings.
At some point in the future, he may, but we
believe that if he was to do that he'd be
within his rights and he'd be within his
setbacks in the side yard of the general
business property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Clear something up
for me, Tom.
MR. MCCARTHY: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last time Mr.
Penney was before us it was for a building on
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the piece on the west side.
MR. MCCARTHY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, that building
has not been constructed; is that correct?
MR. MCCARTHY: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: A little bit of background
which may be germane to this, I think
everybody knows, most everyone knows Mr.
Penney and his business and he's been at that
location for 30 years. He
business in Peconic at the
Liquors, whoever remembers
started his
site of Peconic
that right now,
which is Country Petals on Route 25 in Peconic
on the north side before Lucas Ford, just to
the east of Lucas Ford. He bought this
property when it became available and had been
previously used as a gas station and a garden
center by a gentleman who owned it by the name
of Frank Abrams. He was looking to expand his
business, came before the Board for a detached
building on the west side of the property.
His business has changed to the point where
he's looking really to reduce his footprint in
this particular location cause he owns other
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
property out of state where he's going to be
moving some of his campers and accessories at
a point in the future when he gets another
building built up in New England. So he's
going to be looking to move some of his
equipment and inventory from here to have less
of an impact on the property in Southold.
It's more convenient for his customers that
travel throughout New England as well as the
entire eastern seaboard and some of them from
even the mid-west to go to New Hampshire to
purchase a vehicle, to purchase a camper, to
purchase accessories versus coming through the
tunnels and the bridges and what-have-you for
what Mr. Penney has to offer here.
So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me. The
purpose of that building was to entertain the
maintenance of these campers both on the truck
and the ones that are tow-behind?
MR. MCCARTHY: That's correct. It was
for storage and for service and display at the
time of that particular application. His
plans have changed now to move a lot of that
use to another location outside the Town of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Southold for economic reasons.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any time
limit when that might occur or --
MR. PENNEY: The building should be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to use
MR. PENNEY: Oh, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record.
MR. PENNEY:
The building
end of November.
William Penney.
should be completed by the
We're already starting to
move some of our inventory up there, but I can
only do it on a limited basis because it's
just getting late. So the end of November,
the framework is going up for the building
right now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will keep this
piece though that you have down here?
MR. PENNEY: I'm going to keep this
temporarily, but I think probably 80 percent
of our business, to be honest with you, is
going to be in New Hampshire because the
products we sell don't get registered.
There's just basically a cap that goes on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
back of the truck. They're obviously large,
you know, we started out with just regular
caps and then we moved into this, but there's
no registration, there's no title, nothing to
do with the DMV. So when you purchase them in
New Hampshire, there's no sales tax. So,
obviously, it's a huge benefit to our
customers and we're excited about it cause,
you know, we're -- the piece of property we
purchased up there is right off of Interstate
91, one mile into the state of New Hampshire
on Route 9. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Norwetl.
MR. PENNEY: Yeah, it's right -- I mean
we're at the top of the hill. I can go like
this and see Brattaborough (sic).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Be there tomorrow,
tomorrow night.
MR. PENNEY: I will be too. I've gotta
go up and deliver two more campers. See our
inventory is slowly -- we're trying, you know,
to slowly take it up there and sell it. You
know, every time I take two out it's two
that's gone, that's not going to be replaced,
but -- so we don't know what's going to happen
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
here. We really don't. We might end up
phasing this out completely or -- I mean we
work so much off the internet, at this point,
that all we really need here is an office. So
we don't -- I really, at this point, can't say
what we're going to do. I mean we have an
awful lot of customers on Long Island that are
going to really miss us if we do leave, but,
you know, we do a lot as you can see when you
drive by in the morning there's typically two
or three units that are parked out front
because they're there for service. So we
really don't want to give that up either. So
time will tell.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's let Tom
go through with the -- thank you, sir.
MR. MCCARTHY: The reason that we're in
front of the Board is because Mr. Penney's
use, although he's had building permits and
certificates of occupancy, his use has evolved
over the course of time from automotive
accessory sales and he had campers and truck
campers and bed liners and I remember buying a
car phone from Bill when you had to install
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
them in the car and it came
know, many years ago.
So we're -- we wind up
Board because we are trying
in a big box, you
in front of your
to work together
with the Planning Department. The Planning
Department wanted Bill to come in for a
revised site plan from the site plan that he
had approved by the Town, I believe it was in
1987, to kind of look at the uses that he has
here and to, I would say probably the Planning
Board's take on
little bit more
very successful
it is maybe bring it back a
into control because Bill is a
guy. He has a lot of
inventory and he really tends to have somewhat
of an intense use of this particular piece of
property. So we're working together with the
Planning Department to establish a revised
site plan. We have an application in to the
Planning Board for a revised site plan and
we're trying to work with what their
considerations are on this particular parcel
and that's really why we're in front of you
folks because Bill's, I understand this
hearing is specifically about the shed, but
the shed has been there since 1987. We would
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
like to legitimize it and leave it in its
present location, but also his use has evolved
over time and he had to respond to the
economics of his business and evolve into the
sales of campers and recreational vehicles and
so forth and so on at this location.
So he is looking to, as you've heard,
kind of reduce his footprint on the property
from what you see on the site, move things
north to New Hampshire as well as bring it
into compliance with the Planning Board and
your Board to the best of his ability with
what he's allowed to do on this particular
location.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the site plan
that you're referring to is only on 2.2 I
suspect, right, cause he didn't own the other
piece at that time?
MR. MCCARTHY: This is one parcel. It
was a minor subdivision by
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. MCCARTHY: It was
Frank Abrams.
Right.
set off from a
parcel that is now owned by Mr. Hubbard next
door that previously I owned and sold to Mr.
Hubbard at the time that the zoning changes
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
were happening on Route 48 and his intention
was to donate the development rights on that
parcel to the Town of Southold, which I
believe he did do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: So it's my understanding,
Mr. Chairman, that this one parcel is lived in
its present configuration since the minor
subdivision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and when was
that? Just an approximate.
MR. MCCARTHY:
for 30 years and it
his occupancy.
Well, Bill's been there
was subdivided prior to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wouldn't ask you
all these questions if we hadn't received a
letter from the Planning Board which said hold
the Special Exception up, you know, based upon
the fact that the site plan is out and they're
not close to you.
MR. MCCARTHY: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
purpose of my questions.
up.
MR. MCCARTHY:
That was the
It's not to set you
I understand.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, alright.
I've probably said enough. We'll let you
continue with the presentation. Is there
anything else? Do you want to get into the
Special Permit or do you want to --
MR. MCCARTHY: Well, at the moment I'd
love to be able to address if there's any
particular questions about the shed in its
location and the difficulty because I assume
the Board can understand with the L-shaped
building it's very difficult to get the point
of location that is close to the existing
building.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
particular problem with it.
know if anybody else does.
I don't have a
Okay, I don't
Does anybody else
have a problem with the shed?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. I mean it's
technically in the architectural rear yard of
the property. The technical side yard and
it's not uncommon for these circumstances to
take place when you have a property that's a
corner property. The shed's there and I don't
really have any particular issue with its
location. I think it's well-sited actually
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
relative to the functioning on the property.
I think, however, in terms of
interdepartmental cooperation so that we can
work together as you've proposed, I'd like to
see what the site plan review produces. We've
had some comments from the Planning Board and
I think we should be working together to
resolve these successfully and amicably
through probably letting them go ahead and
continue with site plan review.
We could make a determination on the
setback or the location, nonconforming
location for the shed. The Special Exception
I think needs to have considerable review
because it's their jurisdiction.
MR. MCCARTHY: So you're awaiting
coraments from the Planning Department?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Comments having to do
with parking, I see that on the previous site
plan that was reviewed by Planning Board when
you were here for the previous building that
didn't get built, that there was to be some
landscape buffering and that there was to be
no display whatsoever in the kind of park
yards and so I'd like to see how that evolves.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
I'll be interested to see what the Planning
Board has to say about what you're doing now
applying to them and I would have no problem
making a determination on that shed, but
relative to the intensity of use and so on
it's clear that you're attempting to reduce
some of the impacts, at least so stated for
the record.
MR. MCCARTHY: Has this Board seen the
proposed site plan?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. What do you
mean with the Planning Board?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. MCCARTHY: We have a site plan
submitted to the Planning Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
We have the old site plan,
new one.
MR. MCCARTHY: Okay.
we don't have that.
we don't have the
Just for reference
we're looking to -- I actually have one here,
I'd be happy to show you. We're looking to
fence in the area where Mr. Penney keeps his
vehicles and keep them actually beyond -- uh,
behind the front face of the building on both
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Youngs Avenue and 48 to bring things back
behind it so it's less of an impact to the
travelling public, although Mr. Penney will
still need to have vehicles in the front where
his overhead garage doors are where he
services vehicles, sells them and it's -- I
know personally I've been past that location
where there's been a lot of stuff on the front
lawn. I was there this morning, there's a
small trailer there. I think he's made a
concerted effort to really take things off of
the grassed area in the front and to reduce
his footprint and try to pull everything
towards the backyard, but as he stated
previously, that's a process that's really
dependent upon his inventory and how he thins
things out and moves things into the rear
yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER HORNING: No, it's fine.
MEMBER SIMON: I agree that we could in
principle make a decision regarding the shed.
Is there any advantage to you in delaying that
until we decide the whole package? It's just
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
a matter of efficiency. I mean is there any
reason for us, you know, to write a -- to make
a decision and then issue a report now while
we're still going to be coming back to revisit
this property once the Planning Board has done
its part.
MR. MCCARTHY: We'd like to take that off
of our list of things we need to concentrate,
you know, moving forward. We feel that it's
in the best interest of the Board to resolve
that issue and I think that perhaps even, Mr.
Simon, moving that shed, if the shed was to be
moved, it would have more of an impact on the
neighbors and more of an impact on the
travelling public and we really feel that it's
in the proper location it's just technically
noncompliant. So we'd love to --
MEMBER SIMON: Well, I --
MR. MCCARTHY: -- be able to resolve that
one issue and move forward together with the
Planning Board and the Zoning Board on the
other issues that are really not in question.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. I
understand your preference and I agree with
Leslie that the issue of the placement of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
shed is not really an issue. I'm not
persuaded that if there's any material
difference in whether we decide this now
versus decide it later on except for the fact
that it's an additional set of processing for
us, that's all, and the reason -- you never
really indicated why that's important for you
that we do this piecemeal so to speak, except
that it would be neater and cleaner.
MR. MCCARTHY: I understand. I also see
it as there were two separate denials that we
received from the Building Department in order
to move forward and, you know, I think maybe
perhaps if you're not looking to make a
decision on this -- on the particular
application of the shed, perhaps we could get
a memo to the Planning Department on the
Board's feeling that, just for the sake of
expediency without making that finding, that
you're in agreement on the shed location and
what-have-you and we'd be happy to work
together with you, if that meant it was easier
on staff and processing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you certainly
could carry that over to them and, of course,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
we don't know, we haven't received any
comments from the Planning Board regarding the
shed, okay, in general and that would be are
they intending or requesting any buffering of
the shed. Okay, which conceivably if they
want to do it or we do it, it doesn't make any
difference, alright, depending on the
situation. I haven't spoken to my colleagues
about it, so I don't know how they feel about
it at this particular time anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, probably the most
cost effective is for us to adjourn, not to
close the hearing, but to adjourn it subject
to Planning Board review and then we don't
have to go through the whole rigmarole of, you
know, noticing and all of that, but that would
also -- but we could, however, at your
suggestion or request, make some preliminary
comments to the Planning Board should there be
a sort of general feeling about the location
of the shed. That is not uncommon.
MEMBER SIMON: I would support that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can do that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. MCCARTHY: (Inaudible) happy to work
with the Planning Board, we'd love to move the
process along. If that helps you, so be it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We've done that on
commercial properties before. They send us
their comments, we can send them comments that
will be helpful.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: (Inaudible) expedient for
the Board and staff, that's fine, Mr. Simon.
MEMBER SIMON: Great.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, now let's go
into the Special Permit. Why are you
requesting a pad within the grassed area of
this site?
MR. MCCARTHY: Part of Mr. Penney's
trade, even though he does do work on the
internet, is this -- is to display some of his
goods, no different then perhaps some of the
other merchants in town. Unfortunately for
Mr. Lucas on Route 25 in Peconic, that
property is closed down, but a lot of people's
buying decision may be to notice something
similar to Mr. Mullin looking at Mullin
Motors. We're not -- we have him with his
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
vehicles and his inventory out in a place that
can be seen. What we've proposed within this
particular use is to at the site of the old --
the last approval, the last application, to
your Board was for a detached building. We're
not -- we're looking to have that as an
outdoor storage yard on our site plan that's
proposed to be fenced in and landscaped in
front of. So we feel because of that we still
need to be able to provide some notification
to the traveling public to say, okay, this is
what happens in this particular location that
everything that we have is not hidden and that
will help Mr. Penney because we're looking to
screen it more than what it is screened today.
Okay, a lot of what you see there is going to
disappear.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, has the
Planning Board seen this display area?
MR. MCCARTHY: This has been submitted to
the Planning Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: The one that I'm looking
at is a copy of what's been submitted.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Have you received
any comments regarding this?
MR. MCCARTHY: Not as of yet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I think we
need to just let this unfold the way it's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, hold it in
abeyance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, just let them
proceed with their comments and with this
updated survey and proposed fence.
MR. MCCARTHY: I don't think Mr. Penney
is asking for more than what some of the other
merchants that are similarly situated in
similar zones happen to have within our town,
which is a place to not be hidden and a place
to display within a reasonable manner some of
the goods that he has for sale.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see if
anybody else wants to speak for or against
this application. This application will
probably be recessed.
Is there anybody in the audience who
would like to speak for or against this
application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Yes.
MR. MCCARTHY: I am a noticed adjacent
property owner. I own property on the east
side on the southeast corner of Route 48 and
Youngs Avenue and I have no objection to the
application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No kidding.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, hearing no
further comment we'll make a motion adjourning
this until I'm going to say December 2nd and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do we want to adjourn
without a date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If we adjourn
without a date he has to notice everybody
again. So let's go to December 2nd --
BOARD ASST.: December 3rd, I believe.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: December 3.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then if we need to
extend it, we can.
MR. MCCARTHY: We'll continue to work
with the Planning Board in their process and
see how we can come to resolve it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Thank
you very much.
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MR. MCCARTHY: Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: Second the motion.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6320 - Robert Swing
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's July 31, 2009 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a deviation from the
plans approved under ZBA #6159, requesting a
height increase of the dwelling, which
reconstruction is: {1) less than 10 feet from
a single side yard, (2) less than 25 feet
total, combined side yards, and (3) less than
75 feet from the bulkhead. Location: 4295
Bay Shore Road, Greenport; CTM 1000-53-6-24
{adjacent to Shelter Island Sound-Pipes
Cove)."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Notaro, how are
you today?
MR. NOTARO: Good.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please state your
name for the record, please.
MR. NOTARO: My name is Frank Notaro and
I'm here to represent, I'm the architect
representing Mr. and Mrs. Swing.
Before -- if I may, before we got on
board they had received zoning approval.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. NOTARO: And when we prepared the
drawings we raised the issue about flood zone
areas that was then later addressed by the
people involved in it and we realized that we
were below the flood zone. Also, when I did
inspect the existing crawlspace on the house
it is full of mold, mildew. I really can't
certify the condition of the existing flood
joists or sill plate that are there.
What we're requesting is basically to
take the house down and add three courses of
concrete block to get us up two feet higher,
which would then conform to FEMA and that
would bring the overall total on the house to
approximately 27 foot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that mean or is
that ridge?
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MR. NOTARO: That's ridge height.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ridge height.
MR. NOTARO: Yes. So we're not going for
any kind of variance on the overall height,
but we are -- I mean, beyond the 35-foot
limitation, but we are asking to go up another
two feet so that we comply.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Apart from the --
apart from the FEMA aspect, is this house
somewhat similar to the one that was
constructed across the street that was done,
you know, that we had the variances on at one
particular point?
MR. NOTARO: If you're referring to the
one on the south side of this house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, on the south.
MR. NOTARO: I'm not really familiar with
the house. It's a pretty large house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This one?
MR. NOTARO: No, the other one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The other one,
okay.
MR. NOTARO:
dormers and, you
keep
This is more of a cape with
know, basically we tried to
it in the cape fashion to not make it so
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
standout so much there. Basically the second
floor is still a loft space open to below. So
we're in keeping with kind of a character that
the Swings wanted us to do on the house, but I
would imagine they had to also conform with
FEMA when they went through their process.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it was a
couple of years ago we had that.
MR. NOTARO: But it is a different type
of a house, I think it's more of a two-story
home.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, yes. It is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, Frank, the
previous relief that was granted was for a
single side yard of 5 foot 7 inches, a total
of 11.5.
MR. NOTARO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And lot coverage of 26.4
percent. Now, it looks that you're not
requesting a single side yard of 0.1 feet?
MR. NOTARO: Well, actually we're not.
The total -- the footprint has not changed one
inch from what was approved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then how do we figure
that -- explain that one to me cause that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
mystified me. I'm looking and saying wait a
minute if this is just a (inaudible) as what
we approved basically with the elevation
(inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: Well,
other house, previously,
let me explain. The
and I can show you
the survey, I guess they were going primarily
for the variance on the extension that goes
towards the road. That is a little further
away from the side yard than the existing
south side of the existing home and that's --
that just has to be raised within the same
footprint. So now it is affecting the zoning
on it so to speak. Before, that was staying
at a iow level and I --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You mean the elevational
change is creating a --
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, if I may approach?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, do cause I can't
see how it suddenly --
MR. NOTARO: What happened is, and I
wasn't present during the zoning, they were
really going for zoning relief on this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. NOTARO: Keeping this basically the
same, but adding a new roof on here. We're
now asking to raise the existing footprint two
feet up and that brings you closer on this one
side yard with the sunroom. We're not
deviating from the footprint at all. It's the
same footprint, but
distance here.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
line.
now this does affect this
It's on the property
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, but that -- it would
have been the same sunroom either way, it's
now raised up to conform to FEMA.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
the variance needs.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, exactly. Yes. What
really triggered it also is the overall
height, I guess there's a --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. NOTARO: --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reconstruction and now this is
it's a new house.
That's what triggered
Yeah, there's a change.
(inaudible} the original.
Plus it was a
clearly a demo,
MR. NOTARO: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
back on that side, Frank?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
room.
MEMBER SIMON: But
essentially.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
sure it's a new house.
MR. NOTARO: But
not -- I don't think it's
mean that -- Bob Swing is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Can that be cut
It's a very small
it's a new house,
Yeah, it is a new house,
I mean the sunroom is
very extravagant. I
here, we can --
I think you need to
speak to him outside because you need to
explain to him, and I'm not directing you, I'm
just saying --
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- as you know this
is a democratic Board. Three votes carries
the situation. Okay, I wouldn't want to hold
up a project if this Board was not so inclined
a, you know, less than a foot
to grant
setback.
MR. SWING: Right, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to state
your name, Mr. Swing.
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MR. SWING: Robert Swing. The sunroom
that you're concerned about is on a slab and
that's existing today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. SWING: So I mean that's from the
original and that is not going to be demo'd.
We're going to keep that slab there and build
up.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then the question I
have to the Board is how much of a concern do
you Board members have regarding this setback?
MEMBER SIMON: Well, I mean one question
I have is the amount of living space going to
be increased between the two? Is there going
to be living space on the second floor in
consequence of this reconstruction?
MR. SWING: There's going to be a loft on
the, as you call it,
the loft.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. NOTARO: As a
absolutely no change.
same.
MEMBER SIMON:
second floor. We call it
Okay.
result of this there's
Footprint remains the
I'm talking about the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. SWING: Well, that was always
considered in the last --
MEMBER SIMON: -- size of the house. The
reason I'm asking is that since this is a
demolition and the foundation is being altered
in any case, the question of whether you can
rebuild, whether this is a reconstruction or a
new structure is fairly crucial and the fact
is if the house in consequence of this
elevation is going to be a somewhat different
house, it sounds less like a reconstruction
and more like a replacement and that's what I
think you need to address.
MR. SWING: Let me just (inaudible) that.
So looking at the house, if you were to come
into the house before, the crawl space being
dirt, all the subplates and boards are
dilapidated. My floor is sunken in. We're
actually keeping it, when you talk about
reconstruction, we're actually keeping all the
windows that we installed probably five years
ago taking them out. So the first floor is
going to be identical to what it looks like
today and if you look at the plans we're just
going up and putting in that loft and putting
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some windows in and we're taking the footprint
from the original that is today and going
towards the road and doubling the size of the
house (inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: And, also, I guess we're
really kind of zeroing in on the sunroom. The
sunroom is staying as a sunroom, single story.
There's no attempt to make like an additional
space above that space, increase the volume on
that.
MEMBER SIMON: Compliance with FEMA is
required only if
house.
MR. NOTARO:
you do something to the
Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words, it isn't
as though you're applying -- simply applying
for a variance because FEMA is requiring it.
FEMA is requiring a variance incident to the
reconstruction of the house, which then
triggers FEMA and then triggers the need for a
variance. It looks as though -- we get many
FEMA cases where somebody wants to do
something and they -- there's no question
about what they want to do except for the
problem that FEMA causes because they have to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
raise the whole house and it's looking, when I
first read this, as though FEMA was driving
the whole thing and it's clear that it's the
reconstruction that is driving the whole thing
and, while that may not be crucial in a legal
point of view, it certainly is relevant to our
consideration about whether we see this as a
new construction or whether we see this as a
reconstruction of an existing place that needs
to be altered.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in other words
what you're telling me is, Mr. Notaro, that
the house is going to be reconstructed around
the porch and the porch is going to remain
just the way it is or is the porch going to be
raised also?
MR. NOTARO:
also.
The porch has to be raised
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It has to be raised
to meet FEMA requirements. Okay.
MR. NOTARO: Bob has no problem leaving
the porch at the lower level, we would just
put two steps down to it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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MR. NOTARO: But that doesn't comply with
FEMA.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It doesn't comply
with FEMA, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have another sort of
technical question, Frank, please. The
bulkhead setback, 31 feet, that remains the
same as the existing dwelling?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause it's not -- it's
noted at 31, but you're keeping that
inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: Yes,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
absolutely.
Now there's no reference
mn the current notice of disapproval to lot
coverage. I'm presuming your lot coverage is
going to be the same as --
MR. NOTARO: Identical.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it was, which is 26.4
percent?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
the approved --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Nothing changed from
It should be in the
Notice of Disapproval because you need a
variance for that excessive lot coverage.
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MR. NOTARO: I thought they had already
received that in their previous application.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
is a, yeah, this is
now.
Yes, but --
That's true, but --
-- not for the new house.
-- this is -- but this
really a new application
MR. SWING: The way I look at it is it's
the same footprint, what we identified is we
have to raise it. So it's the same square
box.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand. I --
MR. SWING: So it's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm only pointing it out
because I want it to go through properly and
not have some {inaudible) come back later.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're lucky,
Leslie, to have the Building Inspector here
again. So we need to ask him that question,
if he wouldn't mind answering it. Could you
come up, Mike?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I just want to --
I don't want to see you go through any
unnecessary complications.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't want to
put you on the spot, but we are as usual and
we do apologize for that.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Chief
Building Inspector Michael Verity, Town of
Southold.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, the question -
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: The
question, I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is we
granted variances for this house and now in
order to make it FEMA compliant they have to
go up three blocks, okay. We would not deny -
- to my knowledge, it was not denied for
excessive lot coverage. The question is, does
the prior variance still -- is the prior
variance still okay?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: From
what I understand in reference to lot
coverage, yes, that's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so in that
particular case, it appear we're going to be
okay --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
so inclined to grant this
-- if the Board was
application.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As it exists today
without the lot coverage.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail we're trying to
do is facilitate something for these fine
gentlemen. Thank you very much.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I'm just looking at
the previous determination here, that's all,
and it was for the area variance relief as
requested was for 26 percent, actually it says
26.4 percent with the addition and remaining
walk included on the calculation. Alright, so
I just want to be -- this was on the survey by
Peconic Surveyors and I just want to be
absolutely certain we get all the details
right. So as long as the -- I would suggest
then that when the determination is written
that there be, I think, Ken, it's yours, that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
there be in additional information the
reference to the previous variance and the
approval of that lot coverage so that there is
no problem with the Notice of Disapproval, you
know what I mean?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Got it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The record now reflects
what the Building Inspector's interpretation
was.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's the appeal
number, Leslie, the prior?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's appeal #159 on
9/14/07.
BOARD ASST.: 6159.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 6159.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 6159, sorry.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That would be a real
early one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, like 1959.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have a question.
The foundation, the existing foundation, is
all slab on -- the only part that's slab on
grade is the sunroom?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct and the rest
is, I guess, crawlspace?
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, it's about a 2-foot
high crawlspace.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay and you want to
go two -- three courses of block around the
perimeter --
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- and how are you
going to deal with that at the crawlspace?
Just go right on top?
MR. NOTARO: Right on top of what's
existing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: With three courses of
block.
MR. NOTARO: Yes and then put the in
flow/out flow valves that are required.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
BOARD ASST.:
that. Could you
MR. NOTARO:
Sorry, I'm not catching
just repeat that last answer?
We're planning to put three
courses of block over the existing block
foundation portion and then block up the
sunroom to match that height.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
MR. NOTARO: And then put the appropriate
in flow/out flow valves.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The sunroom slab
height is now the existing finished floor,
about?
MR. SWING: There's a step down.
MR. NOTARO: Yes, but it is a step down.
MR. SWING: But it is the floor.
BOARD ASST.: It is what? We have to get
you on tape, it's a tape recording. If I
can't hear you, he's not going to hear you.
MR. SWING: Frank's right, there's a step
down to it.
BOARD ASST.: There's a step down to the
sunroom.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in effect,
what's going to happen is, excuse me one
second, you're going to demolish the sunroom
but save the windows and reconstruct the
sunroom.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
that alteration about five
Actually, Bob did
years ago so he
wants to save those windows.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Excuse me,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Ken.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. I can see by
the second floor plan view that it's roofed
over there. There's no second floor on top of
the sunroom.
MR. NOTARO: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, that's it.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll ask one question, a
couple of questions. On the old application
you mentioned that you're putting in a new
septic system.
MR. SWING: Correct. There is none
today, it's dilapidated.
MR. NOTARO: Don't say there's none
today. There's an existing sanitary system in
question.
MR. SWING: Well, {inaudible) the house
because we need to go through the Health
Department to get our septic and we haven't
been able to use this house in two years
because I couldn't get that permit. It was
very frustrating, so we finally got a septic
permit and we'll put the proper septic in.
MEMBER HORNING: Uh-huh. And the detail
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
of the outdoor shower, would you be tying that
into the septic system or not?
BOARD ASST.: We need one speaker at the
mike, please. I'm sorry. If you really want
it in the record, I have to hear you. Thank
you. Otherwise
record.
MR. NOTARO:
it's not going to be in the
I would have to check with
the Health Department on that, if you can do
that. I would imagine we could do directly
into that, yes.
MEMBER HORNING:
the --
MR. NOTARO:
yes.
I think it's close to
Close enough to the tank,
MEMBER HORNING: Right. And it's close
to the waterfront also and there is also some
concern let's say that you -- water going down
the drain so to speak might leech through to
the --
MR. NOTARO: The water, yup.
MEMBER HORNING: -- water. Also, again,
I wasn't here last year or so, but can you
just briefly explain again how it is that you
had a variance granted within the last couple
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
of years, in fact, within about a year ago,
and then all of a sudden you go from an
addition to a demolition basically, I think if
I understand correctly?
MR. NOTARO: Well, back then I personally
was not involved. They didn't use architects
for this project then. So then I addressed
the issue with the client later on. I said,
what about the flood zone? There's no flood
zone indicated on the survey and that's what
brought this whole thing into being. So this
was after the approval.
MEMBER HORNING: And no one, at that
time, picked up on the concept of being in the
flood zone?
MR. NOTARO: Flood zone, no.
MEMBER HORNING: Thank you.
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
MR. NOTARO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just don't leave,
we'll see if anybody else has any comments.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING #6312 Peter and
Barbara Terranova
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's May
27, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning an
as-built deck addition to the existing
dwelling, which new construction is: (1) less
than the code-required minimum 10 feet on a
single side yard,
limitation of 20%
415 Sound Avenue,
and (2) exceeds the code
lot coverage. Location:
Peconic; CTM 1000-67-2-4."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who would like to
be heard? Mr. Terranova, how are you? Would
you state your name, you are Mr. Terranova.
Just state your name for the record.
MR. TERRANOVA: Yes.
Terranova.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
My name is Peter
How do you do?
MR. TERRANOVA: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us?
TERRANOVA: Together with my wife,
MR.
Barbara,
question,
I am the owner of the property in
415 Sound Avenue, Peconic. Today I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
come before you to request a variance for an
as-built deck on the rear of our home. The
deck as noted does not meet current zoning
requirements, specifically the 10-foot minimum
side setback and the 20-percent maximum lot
coverage.
For the record, the deck does not extend
beyond the side of the existing home. That is
to say the existing home does not meet the 10-
foot minimum side setback and it adds about
1.5-percent lot coverage to the existing
structures on the property. The existing
structures on the property, which included the
home and the detached garage, were built prior
to zoning. So together they comprised about
23-23.5 percent of the lot. Through a
combination of inheritance and buyout, my wife
and I took possession of the house in 2003.
Earlier this year we applied for a building
permit to do some interior renovations to the
home and we had an up-to-date survey done on
the property and that revealed the existence
of the deck for which a permit had not been
previously applied for, hence, this request
for a variance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
What we want to do now is bring the
existing structures into compliance. Attached
photos, I believe, is in your file. You can
see that the deck is not obtrusive at all. It
fits in well with the neighborhood. It's not
visible from the street and is well
constructed.
I'm here to answer any questions that you
might have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How big is the
deck?
MR. TERRANOVA: Approximately 10 by 20.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TERRANOVA: From what I understand,
the deck was built by my mother-in-law who is
now deceased. Before the deck was built there
was a steep, narrow masonry stairs leading up
to the kitchen area. My mother-in-law, who
was getting on in years, was no longer able to
navigate those masonry steps. They were very
dangerous. In fact, when you opened up the
backdoor to the entrance to the kitchen, you
had to actually step down because the door
swung into the landing area. As my mother-in-
law was getting older she also used a walker
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
and occasionally a wheelchair. If she wanted
to go outside and she no longer felt safe
trying to navigate those old masonry steps
that were falling apart. While I can't be
certain, I suspect that her reasoning for
building the deck the way she did was to span
both the bay window and the door, hence the
length 12 feet, and as far as the distance out
is that the only masonry steps actually were
left intact, okay,
masonry steps. I
masonry steps met
were narrow. The
and you have to span those
don't believe the old
code themselves because they
landing was very small and
you couldn't even open the door without
backing up on the steps and in the wintertime
it was very, very dangerous.
So I believe that was the reasoning
behind the construction of the deck at the
time and what we're trying to do is bring
everything into conformance and make sure
everything is up to snuff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I
on the deck, 12.4 by 10.2.
MR. TERRANOVA: Yes.
Thank you.
see the sketch here
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Possibly 124 square
feet.
MR. TERRANOVA: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I guess you're
applying for a building permit for this?
MR. TERRANOVA: Uh, not for the deck, the
deck is as-built. The deck was built sometime
ago. What we're -- what we did is we're doing
some interior renovations to the home now that
we live out here full time. We're adding a
second bathroom inside the home. We're doing
some siding. We're replacing some windows,
okay, we're expanding a bedroom into one of
the -- an existing small porch in the front of
the house. Okay, to make room for the second
bathroom. In the process of applying for that
building permit, which had nothing to do with
the deck, we had the survey done and that's
when we submitted that to the Building
Department. They said, hey, this deck is not
approved and that's what triggered the
disapproval and I have the building permit for
the building work that we're doing. What
we're here today to do is address the deck.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: My concern is that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the Board was to grant the variances for the
deck, we would have to be assured that the
deck was constructed to code.
MR. TERRANOVA: Okay, at the time, I
asked in the Building Department should I have
my designer who did the work, you know, draw
up the approved plans and they said, no, don't
do that at this time. That's not necessary.
If you would be so kind as to just go home and
sketch, not sketch, but draw exactly the way
the deck is built, that would be sufficient.
That's what I did. At the time, I offered to
have that, to have what you just requested
done and I was told don't do that. So I went
home and --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
yeah, we have them.
I think it's probably --
We have them in our --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What we usually do,
Kenny, is make the decision subject to a
building permit and then he has to do what he
has to do, what the Building Department would
request to do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean I'm sure
it's not not in compliance, but whatever they
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
may want, you know, a couple of hangers here
or there, whatever the case might be.
MR. TERRANOVA: Right. Ail those hangers
that I can tell looking underneath it, you
know, all of the attachment hangers and
whatever, I'm an engineer, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh good.
MR. TERRANOVA: -- I mean I can take a
look at something and tell you whether or not
it's there for the duration.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not going anywhere.
MR. TERRANOVA: No, it's definitely there
for the duration.
highways.
wouldn't
York.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you could in
effect stamp your own plans, huh?
MR. TERRANOVA: Well, I don't have my --
I can have my son -- my son's a PE, but he's
not registered in the state of New York. He's
registered in Missouri and Texas. He builds
So I could have him come up, but it
be valid anyway in the state of New
deck, I think our Building Department
care of it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For 124 square foot
can take
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. TERRANOVA: Well, they've come out
and looked at it actually. Actually, they did
come out and look at it and I said, you know,
at the time they were doing the interior
drawings and I said would you like me to have
drawings made up,
and they said no,
their inspection,
stamped drawings of the deck
don't do that. Based on
they said not a problem. I
mean you could confirm this with -- Vicky, is
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TERRANOVA:
this.
Yeah.
They asked me to just
do
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
Procedurally, that's adequate.
BOARD ASST.: It's common with decks to
do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we thank you,
sir. Any other questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. I just simply
wanted to state that all of the lots in that
area are pretty much small with excessive lot
coverage.
MR. TERRANOVA: Well, they're --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very typical of
that little subdivision and they're all
preexisting nonconforming and it's a -- our
concern with the side yard would only be
accessibility for, you know, emergency
services and so on and you have a very open
side yard where your garage is, for one thing.
So you could certainly get equipment in there
and ever up through your neighbor's driveway
you could easily get something on there,
though we prefer to have those kinds of things
take place on your own property relative to,
you know, so I think that I certainly don't
have any problems with it. It's a very small
deck and typical of what's there in the
neighborhood.
MR. TERRANOVA: Yes, and your point is
very well taken and 50-foot wide, in fact,
this view here -- I'll show you how this is.
This is my neighbor's driveway, this shows
just a part --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TERRANOVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yeah, the setback.
-- of the deck.
We'll pass them down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to put them
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
in.
of
MEMBER WEISMAN:
these.
MR. TERRANOVA:
I think we have Xeroxes
You'll notice my
neighbor's garage is very close. Again it's
50 foot and then on the other side of the deck
my neighbor's garage
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TERRANOVA:
is actually (inaudible).
Yeah.
It's 50-foot wide so you
have to be very friendly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any questions for
Mr. Terranova?
MEMBER HORNING: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MEMBER SIMON: Just an observation.
First of all, I'm happy to hear you're
complete and apparently candid and quite
credible filling in details which were not in
the plans about the history of this. I did
notice, I take it you live across the street.
Is that your house across the street, your own
house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he is the
applicant.
MEMBER SIMON: You're the applicant; do
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
you own two houses on that street?
MR. TERRANOVA: The home across the
street was my parents' home.
MEMBER SIMON: I see, okay.
MR. TERRANOVA: And they -- both my
parents are deceased.
MEMBER SIMON: I see.
MR. TERRANOVA: I am a part owner through
Trust.
MEMBER SIMON: I saw the name on the
house, that's the only thing.
MR. TERRANOVA: Yes. Well, it's my
parents' home and I collectively own that
through the beneficiaries of a Trust with my
two brothers and sister.
MEMBER SIMON: I see. No, that's -- so I
understand that the circumstances of which
this application came forth is you were
upgrading the house (inaudible) for whatever
reason and so this will make better sense,
more complete sense than it did before. I
have no questions.
MR. TERRANOVA: Okay, thank you. Thank
you very much.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you, sir.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING %6313 - John and
Daniella Venetis
MEMBER SIMON:
"Location of Property:
#15, a/k/a Takaposha Road,
87-6-4. Requests for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's August 17, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an application for
demolition and a building permit for a new
single-family dwelling, which new construction
will be:
1) less than the code-required minimum of
75 feet from the bulkhead,
2600 Private Road
Southold; CTM 1000-
2} less than 35
line,
3) less than 35
line,
4) less than 25
minimum side
feet from the front lot
feet from the rear lot
feet for both (combined)
yard setbacks,
5) exceeds the code limitation of 20%
maximum lot coverage (building area),
6) access to the property is not in
accordance with New York Town Law,
Section 280-a, and Town Code Section
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
280-109-A."
MEMBER SIMON:
variances.
MRS. MOORE:
Actually --
These are a lot of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you just
state your name for the record?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry. Patricia
Moore on behalf of the applicant. I also have
Angel Chorno who is the architect on this
project.
We actually have kind of a change of
circumstances recently. When we first made
this application the new flood map had not
come out or we couldn't verify the flood zone.
Actually, the map has just been finally
approved and I think the Town Board adopted
the map that's been out and the flood map that
had originally -- we weren't sure what it was
going to be. Under the old map we've had to
raise the foundation. Under the current map,
we believe that we can keep everything as is,
which has made our client very happy because
he, obviously, did not -- the house is in very
good shape, if all of you have seen it. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
house is immaculate, it's structurally sound
and all he wanted to do was put a second story
on the existing structure.
Again, like other hearings you've had
today, depending on the degree of the
improvement, any second story addition
required a FEMA compliance, but the map now
shows that it's an 8 and 6. The existing
elevation of this house is an AE8+ so we could
be in conformity. I think as a "just in
case", you know, we would like to be able to
make some alteration to the foundation, if we
need to, but I -- we're very hopeful that we
don't need to do that. We won't know until
the Building Department obviously takes our
application and confirms everything, but we
believe that everything is compliant.
So that was the new change since, you
know, we started this application, the
drawings, back in January and here we are in
October. So over that period of time the map
has now -- seems to be in place, so we should
be good there.
With respect to the number of variances,
there is actually a history on this property.
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I included the variances that have been
granted on this property in the past. Way
back from 1968 the road itself, Takaposha
Shores was a map developed by Mrs. Campbell or
Mr. Campbell and that variance ultimately he
retained one -- he/she, I'm sorry, I don't
know whether it was a man or woman -- the
Campbell family retained this particular lot
and had to go through variance application
%1223 of 1968 and received 280-a approval.
Thereafter, in 1980, 1985, I believe, oh, I
have it in front of me, in 1985 alterations
were made to the house, that's when the decks
that you saw there were built out. The 1985
variance appeal #3360 for a Margaret Wagner
received variances for the deck, the rear
yard. Pretty much all the same variances that
are listed here, actually, all the same
variances that are listed here. The only one
that was missing at the time was a lot
coverage variance and I don't know why in 1985
that wasn't included and may not be -- it may
have been an interpretation at that time that
the improvements did not require lot size
variance. Excuse me, lot coverage, I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
misspoke, lot coverage variance. So it's the
only one that I didn't see in the old -- the
1985 variance, but we, again, our variance
today is taking all of the same structure, the
decking, the house, again, our request is to
put a second story over the existing house,
keeping the same setbacks. The garage is the
same, it's a one-story garage with a slight
dormer, architectural style; it's not living
space. It's just a small dormer with storage
area. You have the plans in your file. The
decking because of FEMA we thought it had to
be raised some, but if we don't have to raise
the house, then we obviously don't have to
raise the decks and the decks will be replaced
in the same location as they are today.
Correct? The same dimensions of the decks,
yes. That's my memory.
The only difference is that there's a
small covering over a barbecue area now, but
they have requested to be able to cover the
back deck and right behind it's showing on the
survey as the dashed line, proposed covered
deck. It is very hot in the summer with this
property and they -- the previous said it
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
could not be enclosed. It didn't prohibit
covering. We would just want to make sure
that it's clear that we would like to put a
roof over that rear deck.
Let's see what else we've got. The
change that this application required is that
the front of the house needs a -- and this is
where Mr. Chorno will be able to clarify for
me -- it's a proposed one-foot addition to the
front of the house for structural support.
That is something that is being proposed and
that plus an overhanging entrance is the
difference in the lot coverage calculation of
the 300 and -- the difference being 321 square
feet. It is that one foot along the front of
the house with a, just a small roof overhang
for the entrance way. It gives a little more
architectural interest to the house otherwise
it starts looking like a mushroom design and
that's not very attractive.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is part of
living area or this is a porch?
MRS. MOORE: No. Just a porch, just a
covered porch, uh --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a covered
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
porch?
MRS. MOORE: Just a covered, roofed over
entrance porch.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Entrance porch.
MRS. MOORE: Like a, you know, typically
it's an entrance foyer. It's like a 3-foot
stoop area, but this is longer because it's
going from the bay window a little bit wider.
Just, again, architectural style here. These
houses -- we have again a situation where when
these variances were issued the surrounding
property had potential development. Since it
has been acquired by the Town of Southold and
there are only five homes along this entire
Takaposha Road, of those five homes I've found
that three of those homes have had variances.
In the 1985 decision it actually refers to the
fact that some of the other homes had received
variances and I have the other homes similarly
received similar variances because they are,
in some instances, they are two-story homes.
In other instances they put decks in the back,
very modest. It's a modest -- modest homes
with modest improvements.
You have, just for the record, tax lot
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
87-6-2 appeal #3369 from 1985 a Jean Harford
and that was referred to in the 1985 decision
that is in your packet from the Wagner
application for my client's property. There
is also a previous variance %8767, appeal
#5827 dated March 9, 2006 that's Jonathan Zang
and that was the demolition of the house and
reconstruction. I remember that one cause I
was involved in that one and that actually
went through the neighbor's -- the large
property owner, previous to the Town acquiring
it, appealing an Article 78 and it was -- the
decision was upheld. So the decision is still
good. And, finally, appeal %87, excuse me,
tax lot 87-6-10 appeal #3602 dated October 7,
1987 and that's a Margaret McNamara. Again,
it was variances for setback to the bulkhead.
So there's a long history. These are all
undersized properties and any time that these
homes need some kind of addition and
alteration it ends up before this Board. So
there are -- there's lots of history of
variances in this area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What are the
purpose --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
SO
MRS. MOORE: I did that pretty quickly,
I apologize if it was too quick.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's the purpose
of the addition?
MRS. MOORE: It's just adding some living
space, bedrooms. I think it's relocation of
one bedroom or just extra bedrooms in the
second floor? Why don't you go on the record?
State your name.
MR. CHORNO: Angel Chorno, the architect.
We eliminated one bedroom on the first
floor that then
bedrooms in the
bedrooms in the
increased the number of
second floor. One of the
first floor remains as is.
The kitchen is remodeled and change location
and makes the living room slightly larger.
Garage and mechanical areas remain as is. We
don't have to push the whole house up, so it's
going to remain a lot more as is. We don't
want to change that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Chorno, what's
the nature of the sanitary system in a
situation like this? Does the Health
Department require additional sanitary?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I think that -- well,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the sanitary right now is in the front yard
over the driveway area. The sanitary would
either have to have a certification that it's
adequate based on the number of bedrooms, or
it would have to be replaced and we did get
from the Trustees, in anticipation of whatever
the Health Department ultimately says,
approval to replace the sanitary and expand it
in the front yard. So sanitary-wise, it will
either be fine because it was replaced along
the way and it's very likely that it was
repaired or replaced along the way because
when my client purchased the house it was in
very good condition and looked like it may
have gone through renovation already. So
we're kind of making sure that we have all our
bases covered, but we should have no issues.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the last thing
is, from me, Michael, I'm sorry, I'm asking
these questions here; will you accept
alternate relief if for some reason the Board
is not so inclined to grant in toto everything
that you're requesting?
MRS. MOORE: Well, there really is no --
the only alternate relief is our entrance and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
we do need the wall and it's just a cover over
the entry way. That's not habitable space.
The rest of the house, as I said, our goal is
not to do anything to the first -- to the
primary home and everything here has already
received variances. So there's variances on
everything from the 1985 decision. So it's
really one of the simplest applications that
you and I have dealt with because it has --
variances run with the land. Our issue was we
had to raise the house, we wanted to be sure
that the variances were all -- they weren't
nullified or not considered, but if we're
keeping everything exactly as it is, we're
really -- we're replacing in kind and place
the decking. The house, again, is a second
floor alteration that we've kept it to the
very minimum. He's not even building out over
the garage space. It's not a, you know, the
garage just has a small storage dormer. So
it's living space directly over top the
existing living space. The lot, I can't even
reduce the lot coverage because it is the
minimal that we can accommodate here. We just
want to be sure that we have structurally that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
front wall. I think that was the --
MR. CHORNO: Well, the owner was debating
if demolish the whole thing and do a new house
or keep this, and my presentation of the
preliminary by adding a little bit on the
front to change completely the looks of the
house satisfied him and decided to remodel
this and not to demolish and do a new house,
which would have required to follow the
footprint anyway because otherwise he couldn't
build it. So that's the way we came, but I
need those few feet in the front in order to
change the looks of the house completely.
Maybe just one foot added, but that's enough
to give me a break in the front elevation that
lends to a better looking house.
Now, the addition of the second floor is
what the owner wants and I have no say on
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The present
mechanical areas are in the garage?
MR. CHORNO: They are next to the garage,
yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Next to the garage.
MRS. MOORE: They have --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. CHORNO: They stay there.
MRS. MOORE: And they must have been
changed at one point in time to meet FEMA
compliance in '85 because everything was in
FEMA compliance currently.
yeah.
Also, just as a point,
So that's what --
so you're aware,
the variance in '85 that was granted for the
porch that goes around the front granted a
front yard variance to 23.5. We purposely
kept any modification to the front to less
than that previously granted variance
distance. We are at 27 -- excuse me. Did I
say 20 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're at 23.5.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I read the wrong
distance. These numbers are so small. Yeah,
23.5 and 23.7.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These are
percentages?
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. Setbacks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: These are setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, these are the
setbacks.
MRS. MOORE: We kept to within the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
previously approved variance setbacks. I'm
going to rely on my papers to make sure the
numbers are right because I'm looking at a
survey that's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me, for the
record, enter what you're requiring, which is
22 feet from the bulkhead, 23.5 front yard lot
line, 24.5 rear lot line.
MRS. MOORE: Hold on, let me look at a
larger survey, cause --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- I show 24.5 deck from the
bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the rear.
MRS. MOORE: Yup. Is that what you asked
me ?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I'm just going over
what the notice indicates that you're --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- requesting.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that would be a better
place for me to look because I know --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
up and it's clear.
MRS. MOORE:
Yes, the brief is typed
I'm sorry.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let them squint at the
survey. So it's 22 feet from the bulkhead,
front yard setback of 23.5 feet, rear lot line
24.5, combined side yard of 24.5, the Code
requires 25 feet and a lot coverage which is
currently 27 percent, but will be, with the
additional 321 square feet for the front
overhang and porch, at 30.5 percent lot
coverage.
MRS.
MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And there's also --
BOARD ASST.: 28.6.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pardon?
BOARD ASST.: 28.6 on the front yard
without the step area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, and I'm counting on the
Building Department not changing their mind
when we resubmit for the building permit that
the steps technically are not included because
it's an access in.
side of the house,
that into your --
BOARD ASST.:
feet,
If the steps were on the
then we'd have to include
If it's not over 30 square
that's the Code.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MR. CHORNO: The steps are going to be
reduced considerably because we do not have to
raise the house.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. CHORNO: Ail those steps are going to
be a lot less.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, if you
don't have to raise the house, land
disturbance is considerably less.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Clearly, and that's a
really important consideration given how close
you are to the bulkhead. So I'd love to see
some sort of confirmed indication that you
won't have to raise the house, if that's
possible, because I think it really does make
a significant difference.
thing other than the front,
really impact the bulkhead,
The only other
which doesn't
particularly, and
I don't really see it. It impacts lot
coverage more than anything else.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other thing that
you're requesting that's not there now is an
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
additional area of the deck on the water side
being roofed over. There's a small bit now,
you want to do the whole thing --
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- with a somewhat
larger structure.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And --
MRS. MOORE: There's also historically
somehow or another the original variance in
'85 later on, I had this in my papers, there
was a slight increase in the deck, but no
closer to the bulkhead. So between '85 and
the time my client purchased it, cause it was
done by a prior owner, it was interpreted once
the variance was granted for the closest
setback within that area, they could modify
the deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So we would be proposing
variances to cover this footprint and what's
there. So -- I -- did we get Joe to look at
the f~undation, I don't remember. The
certification on the foundation, did we --
MEMBER WEISMAN: He's right behind you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Joe, there you are.
We could have the -- sorry, we could have
him double check. I'm sorry, are you asking
something.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ken was looking at the
new flood map shows that you are required to
be an AE6.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you are, as far as
you know, an AE8 already.
MRS. MOORE: The construction, yes, we
have a flood elevation certificate that shows
and the surveyor has that on here that it's at
8.6, I think it was, which clearly complies
with the FEMA Code today. When I called my
client and gave him the good news he was
thrilled because it certainly saves at least
$10,000.00 on --
MR. CHORNO:
MRS. MOORE:
$17,000.00.
Oh, $17,000.00 difference on
the foundation to have to raise it for the
slightest amount.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: And it would have been a
raising of 4 feet -- 4 inches, excuse me?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. CHORNO: It was a little more.
MRS. MOORE: A little more, okay, but in
any case whatever the amount was to meet the
FEMA, it's really a cost savings that he's
very happy with.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, I guess I'm going
to direct this to Angel, to the architect.
Can you tell us, if it's possible, and this is
really just to enter it into the record that
construction can, all heavy equipment can be
located landward of the existing house and not
between the existing house and the bulkhead in
terms of construction of the second story?
MR. CHORNO: Yes, except for the roofing
over the deck, it's nothing special done on
that side. So the additions that we put in
are on the street side, so I would say no
problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, cause again I'm
looking at land disturbance, the possibility
of a buffer zone that is native vegetation
rather than grass.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, actually, we actually,
we received the Trustees' approval and I was
waiting really for this Board to make a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
decision so I
changing surveys twice,
approved the project as
for a five-foot natural
wouldn't have the surveyor
but the Trustees
proposed. They asked
buffer along --
landward of the -- on the landward side of the
bulkhead and to the extent that survives a
little bit of Spartana grass to be planted on
the bulkhead -- the waterside of the bulkhead.
There's activity, they have lots of children
so there's a lot of activity over there. I
don't know to what extent it's going to
survive, but we said,
best leaving an area,
the kids.
alright, we'll do our
swim area obviously for
So we have, the Trustees have reviewed
this project. It's been approved and we are
going to -- whether you provide it into your
decision a native buffer, native land --
vegetative buffer in accordance with whatever
the Trustees require so that we don't have
inconsistency between the two Boards, I defer
to the Trustees on the buffer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I noticed that you
had that in there and I wanted to have the
record reflect that you were prepared to do
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes,
we have planned to do that.
thank you. Yes,
I just don't have
a survey for you showing that, yet.
We are going to have drywells and gutters
all appropriately placed on the property and,
again, it's -- we've really done the very
minimum to this house that is reasonable to
give the client what he needs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to ask one
more question, it's really Michael's thing,
but we might as well continue down here.
MRS. MOORE: Michael hasn't been asking
one question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Kenny?
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you for noticing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Just a quick
question, the addition requiring more square
footage than lot coverage; is that aesthetic
or is that structurally (inaudible)?
MR. CHORNO: It's more aesthetic than
anything else.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. CHORNO: The way it is now, it
supports the house, the second floor, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
aesthetically unless I put a
front, I can't do it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
question. Thank you.
few feet in
Okay, that answers my
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Angel, is that a
monolithic floor, is that masonry addition?
MR. CHORNO: No. It's going to be wood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. CHORNO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER HORNING: Ms.
Ail wood.
Okay, thank you.
Moore, I wanted to
ask about the latest Notice of Disapproval, a
couple of these items, but one is the access
aspect and I notice you haven't currently
included a letter from the Town addressing the
access.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm wondering cause I
had a hard time finding the location actually
yesterday and I finally --
MRS. MOORE: Once you're there once, you
know where you are.
MEMBER HORNING:
Until then, it's totally
I went back and forth a
few times, finally asked a biker who was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
driving by on a bicycle and they were from the
neighborhood and they knew exactly where it
was and as the Chairperson said I could have
gone down there and not gotten back because of
the puddling on the road.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I answer that
question, George?
MEMBER HORNING: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I had asked and, of
course, being aware of the fact that the Town
basically owns the property now --
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- not basically
they do, I asked the public works gentleman,
Mr. McMahan, to send us a letter. I first
requested that it be denied for 280-a for that
specific reason and then asked Mr. McMahan for
a letter who graciously did indicate that he
would be working on the road, that was after
the $140.00 dent in my truck turning around,
but apart from that because I just figured I'd
go down there with a four-wheel drive seeing
the worst; however, the road in particular
happens to be in relatively good condition
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until you get down toward this house when you
branch off on the right side.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I just wanted
to tell you that's where we were.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wanted to
capitalize on that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, from the time you went
down there that's when Mr. McMahan had
scheduled the regrading and kind of
maintenance work on the road.
MEMBER HORNING: I'm just trying to cover
the technical issue of it being listed on the
Notice of Disapproval.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, I'm glad you -- right.
Well --
MEMBER HORNING: Is there a way to have
it amended again so that it's not an issue?
MRS. MOORE: Well, here's the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why would you want
it amended?
MEMBER HORNING:
for it.
MRS. MOORE:
To not have them cited
I'd have to defer to your
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It has be cited for
it.
MEMBER HORNING:
Okay.
MRS. MOORE:
so because 280-a
It has be cited for it.
Well, I actually don't think
is a variance. Variances run
with the land. Every -- the Wagner decision
and even the Campbell decision, Campbell
decision issued 280-a for this property. The
Wagner decision referred back to the Campbell
decision on the 280-a and it's an interesting
legal point. I was trying to find case law on
it and, quite frankly, I just couldn't, but
280-a is analyzed as a variance and we know
variances run with the land.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd love to answer
this question because you and I don't agree on
this, okay, and that is each 280-a is layered,
okay, and every time you have an application
you need to address the 280-a on this road.
MRS. MOORE: Well, when you get on the
Appellate Division and come to that decision I
will believe you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am not an
attorney.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: But it doesn't -- it's
really in a sense it's fine. It's -- I didn't
have any objection to having it included. The
Building Department had not included it
originally and they would have been the
deciding -- the ultimate entity to decide
whether I got a building permit or not and I'm
glad that -- Mr. Goehringer, he feels that way
and I'd hate to think the Building Department,
if they felt that way, they'd send us back in
for a 280-a when it could easily just be
incorporated into this.
objection to having it
want certainly you can
So I have no legal
incorporated, if you
keep it as long as the
280-a continues as it has in the past. It's
more of a technical issue than --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If it was a Town
road, okay, there would be no reason to
reevaluate it, but since the nature of the
road is modified stone, crushed stone, dirt
and various other types of road coverage,
okay, in my particular opinion the major
portion of the road and, I'm not an engineer,
I just looked -- I've been looking at this
stuff for 29 years, okay, and taught by the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
best in Orient who used to be on this Board,
Bob Douglas, it's in the best it's ever been
except for this road going to this house,
okay, and Mr. McMahan said that he would
address that issue.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But he may not do
it until sometime in the fall.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, there were a couple of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And quite honestly
if the Board is so inclined to grant this
variance, it's probably better that he does
not address it until after this thing is
finished.
MRS. MOORE: Well, there are two houses,
Zang house is in the process of getting --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- I guess re -- it was just
issued permits from the Trustees. So they are
probably going to start their construction
shortly and hopefully we will get all our
permits in place to start construction so
there is going to be activity there. I think
as a reasonable, you know, I hate to give away
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
my client's money, but as a reasonable
condition is just to do any repairs that are
caused by the construction and I think that
that's something that
working on this road,
matter fix, you know,
out the pits that the
both, you know, anybody
should as a practical
put some soil and grade
Town has spent the money
to repair. So whether it's done -- if the
Town does it after the fact, great, no issue,
but if it's not -- if it's done and then we do
the work, that's a reasonable condition to put
on the approval. You know, as a taxpayer and
my client certainly would expect that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The concern I have
is the fact that once you get down there it's
very difficult to go any further than these
houses.
MRS. MOORE: You can't go anywhere. You
go around the circle and you come back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the circle is
closed up, okay, that's the problem.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: No, it isn't.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: I went around that way.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
with
this
okay,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to be honest
you, I went down there specifically in
rather huge four-wheel drive I have,
for the sole purpose of evaluating
because the last time I was there I mean it
was nip and tuck.
the situation.
MRS. MOORE:
Okay, so conceivably that's
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
smaller car, yes,
that --
MRS. MOORE:
repair.
And if I had my
I probably would have made
It would have been a $300.00
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A little more.
MEMBER HORNING: I have one other
question.
MRS. MOORE: I thought this is such a
simple application.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, the Chairperson
has covered the access aspect as far as I'm
concerned. Looking on the technical reasons
of the Notice of Disapproval again, as the
notice says for a permit for demolition and
then the new dwelling and then it goes on
further and says to propose demolition and new
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
dwelling. Now, again, you're not presenting
that, correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, again, when we started
this we had to -- we made the worst case
scenario analysis, which would be the
demolition. I am not presenting that because
my client would rather not demolish. I --
given that we don't know until we take walls
out the condition of the wood behind the
walls, we think it's in good shape. We just
want to be sure that it covers, you know,
again we're keeping -- we keep the foundation
no matter what and the foundation actually we
may not have to raise, it's just a question of
to the degree of the improvements of the first
floor to what extent you see termite damage
and deterioration that is not evident from
exterior or any interior view. So, you know,
we always -- we use that language whether it's
applicable or not just in case, but originally
I thought I had to raise the foundation, I
don't have to do that now.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, I mean it just
seems in reading the Notice of Disapproval
which is -- has a recent revised date --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that -- yeah.
MEMBER HORNING: -- one would think as it
reads demolition and construction of a new
dwelling and you're talking about actually an
addition to the dwelling. So those are two
different critters.
MRS. MOORE: Well, you'll find out from
sitting on the Board that if you don't ask for
it and something happens along the way and you
take a wall down that suddenly the Building
Department says go back to the Zoning Board
because you've had a wall that's come down.
I've had applications that have come back to
the Board four times because of the intention
to not change anything, but with a wall and
something breaks, you know, something goes
wrong. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had one of those
applications, George, last year at this time.
SO you could see why we --
MRS. MOORE: Right, so we learn by our
experiences.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, nevertheless
that's a very important point and, you know,
we have seen this happen before, but given the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
proximity to the bulkhead and so on and the
way you presented this I would consider this a
second story addition based upon the
architects and the engineer's interpretation
that these walls will stand. They are not
coming down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Well, see but that language
is the problem. When does a wall get -- you
may have -- I have to think about the worst.
The whole house, the first floor is intending
to stay, but when you take down the sheetrock
what do you know is behind the walls, the
structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Well, the bottom line is
MRS. MOORE: You take the sheeting out,
you leave the wood and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I get it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I know you do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand, but that
isn't the point. You're absolutely right,
that's part of the problem in doing
renovations. You don't always know what
you're going to get behind a wall, but never
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the less what you are proposing suggests (a)
you won't have to raise the foundation, (b)
you're going to retain the house you've
presented it as though it was
condition in your application.
MRS. MOORE: We think it
in good
is. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I would assume that you
have some credible experts talking about the
structural competence. Mr. Chorno has already
testified here that the wall will hold the
second floor. Okay, that it's an aesthetic
consideration for that extra first, you know,
one foot overhang. There is a huge potential
land disturbance if this whole thing comes
down. You know, I mean it's a very different
critter if you really are demolishing a
structure than if you're renovating the
structure.
MRS. MOORE: I have to say that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's important
that the record reflect the degree to which
you're anticipating activity, construction
activity on the property.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I've given you as much
information, unfortunately, that we can gather
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
today without taking sheetrock down to look at
the interior structure. The footings are
good.
MR. CHORNO: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, go ahead.
MR. CHORNO: I have a case right now
where we open and found instead of 2 by 4s
there were mostly 2 by 3s randomly put so
Building Department allowed us to redo that
statement
and I had to write them and make a
MEMBER WEISMAN: Certainly.
MR. CHORNO: 2 by 4s if I have a problem
and just put next to them the 2 by 6 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, you just sister
them together and then it'll be alright.
MR. CHORNO: (Inaudible) 2 by 4 and
addition 2 by 6 so I don't see any problem for
you to make the condition not to demolish that
bulkhead side of the house and (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Thanks a lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well --
MRS. MOORE: Well, he's the professional.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have to go back
to Michael now because it is his application.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE:
can do it.
MEMBER SIMON:
That's right, he thinks he
One example -- one
advantage of the new policy which allows the
person to present the application and will be
writing to speak last rather than first is it
gives me in particular a chance to collect my
thoughts and to learn from the previous
exchange.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does that mean
you're going to be short?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Eau contrar. Eau
contrar. The (inaudible) said that this is
very simple. It's simple, yes, but it reminds
us all of us of a number of applications which
were equally simple and which the outcomes
were somewhat different from what you're
proposing.
The -- George has done a good job of
doing what I think all of us has done, read
the application and see what it says, the
Notice of Disapproval, which is clearly not
consistent with the way you have presented it.
Now, you may be right in which case something
has to happen, either there has to be a new
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
application or at the very least a new Notice
of Disapproval because as a demolition and it
says it twice, as George pointed out, on this
thing that that's what it is and in support of
that and the significance of it is you say a
number of times the variance runs with the
land. That's a legal opinion which I don't
think I've heard before, I understand that an
easement runs with the land. I understand
that variances run with the land other things
being equal, but to say that it runs with the
land regardless what happens to the structure
is unprecedented as far as I know. The idea
is in other words the history is very
plausible, but history is not the same as
precedent, legal precedent, and the fact that
something -- once upon a time there was
something on this property which had variances
and so forth and such a thing, whatever we do
to replace it, even if it's totally
demolished, must preserve those variances.
That's a novel theory of the law, which I
would like to see tested in court if someone
is going to propose it.
In any case, I take my questions from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
whole question about to what extent can you
lean on the preexisting variances and the
kinds of rather compelling arguments you've
made, if it is a reconstruction, in the face
of indication that this a demolition and,
frankly, I find it rather confusing as to what
we can expect and what you -- and you say you
can't know what you're going to find when you
take it apart. So it doesn't seem to be ripe
for evaluation at this point because of those
difficulties that I'm having.
MRS. MOORE: Well, in fairness to the
applicant, okay, just a couple of points to
begin with, the standards for a variance, and
your attorney will advise you accordingly, but
the standards for a variance in 1985 were
actually more rigorous than they are today --
MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry, why is that
relevant to this?
MRS. MOORE:
whether variances
are --
MEMBER SIMON: No,
never heard that phrase
You're asking about the --
run with the land or they
I'm not asking. I've
run with the land for
variances. It only assumes everything else
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
stays the same and if the building is no
longer there, the variances --
MRS. MOORE: I think it comes
(inaudible), but you know --
MEMBER SIMON: The variances are
demolished along with the building, if they're
variances that have to do with things like
setback and lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. In this instance, the
house where it's proposed wouldn't be any
different. The setbacks are the minimal
setbacks because we have nonconformity here on
the size of the property. As far as our
request, it was the term demolition is a term
that I think we've had the Building
Department, whether I called it a second floor
addition or a demolition, they would call it a
demolition in order to capture any
modification to the walls that may be
necessary, structural alterations. I've
already -- we know the foundation is good. We
think the footings, we checked the footings,
they're fine. We now know that the FEMA is
compliant. Ail those factors now lead us to
believe that this really is a second floor
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
addition, but again the Building Department I
think to protect the applicant and to protect
their own office want to be sure that you've
considered that, outside of the complete
teardown, that alterations to the first floor
are not going to be considered something I'll
have to come back to you for individual
Building Department essentially approval.
So the reason that it was presented or
the Notice of Disapproval was written the way
it was is really to protect the applicant and
ultimately to not stop the project midway
cause that's very costly and very damaging to
the whole process.
MEMBER SIMON: You're absolutely right
and to protect the applicant is also a form of
serving the interests of your client. That's
what the applicant.
you mean by protect
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: That's fine. I guess the
-- I don't think I'm prepared to say that the
Building Department gets it wrong or got it
wrong in this particular case or that you got
it right or the other way around. We are
stuck with the problem that the word
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
demolition does not occur in the
as I know.
MRS. MOORE: It's
it's subjective.
Code so far
an undefined term and
MEMBER SIMON: It's certainly not defined
at the beginning of Chapter 280 and so this is
a -- this is a hard issue.
MRS. MOORE: It's always hard.
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is I think
you'd probably agree that you are pretty good
at striking the envelope of what does and
doesn't count as a demolition and you've won a
few and you've lost a few. Not you but you or
other applicants.
MRS. MOORE:
opinion and your
Well, it's my subjective
subjective opinion and how
it's written then I'm stuck at the end with
the Building Department's interpretation.
MEMBER SIMON: I have no problem with an
advocate making a subjective opinion. I do
have a problem with some individual member
making by himself or herself opinion. These
are matters that have to be accessed and
judged in terms of some kind of general rules
as to which side, which advocate makes the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
strongest claim. That's not what this is
about and so I'm saying it's -- it's going --
I predict it's going to take time to sort this
out to the satisfaction of everybody because I
just don't find that we've -- the things we've
discussed, all of us what counts because we
get as you know we have another demolition
before us today and we have a number of them
and so called demolition -- what is the point,
I think the Building Department, I'm not
asking to reply now, but I think it probably
is concerned itself that it be careful how it
uses words and I think it is careful and not
to see its own words interpreted the way that
an applicant or a particular Board wants to.
Interpretation is a serious business; it's one
of the things that this
in the Code and so it's
take lightly.
Board is charged with
not something we would
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay, Pat I have a
question for you. I noticed that the August -
that the Notice of Disapproval was dated
August 17, 2009 --
MRS. MOORE: The latest one, the 280-a
version?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just let me ask the
question. Do the plans before the Building
Department right now still contemplate having
to raise the house and do you -- and maybe
Michael can answer this, does that have any
implication on whether or not the house would
be considered a demo versus -- no? Okay.
MRS. MOORE:
the history --
MR. CHORNO:
Okay, yeah, you would know
(Inaudible) drawing that is
not here showing what I meant by (inaudible)
the house, that's in the Building Department.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: They have that,
okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, actually the first
floor elevation had anticipated a 10-foot
elevation on the plans cause again the FEMA,
at the time we started this process, had not
come out with their final and the Town had not
adopted that map. The only place it was
available really was either in the Building
Department or the County has a website that
allows you to access the map. So when that
became available we looked at it and said, oh,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
good we don't need a 10-foot elevation, we
have a conforming 8.5.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, no. I do
understand that, but I guess what I need the
Board to understand and I think you understand
it so I don't think I need to hone in on this
point. It's obvious that the plans before the
Building Department show that this is going to
be a demo and you should consider it as such
unless the applicant would like to submit an
application that shows it's just going to be
an addition, otherwise you will be approving a
demo.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, this is why George
raised the question and why I raised the
question indicating that Building Department
notices often say additions and alterations,
you know --
MRS. MOORE: Not if FEMA is involved
though. I don't think because --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we have seen
applications that involve FEMA that refer to
it as additions and alterations. (Inaudible)
was one of them for example (inaudible) and it
was yours.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Yeah and that's why it was
here four times.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it was yours.
MRS. MOORE: Yes and we don't want to be
here four times on this one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Exactly, but you have to
make a decision. Are you -- are you saying
that this is a demo, okay, and a new dwelling
or are you saying it's an addition with some
potential alterations to an existing dwelling
that is now FEMA compliant. Okay, so I think
you're caught somewhere in the middle and the
Building Department wrote this based upon the
FEMA requirements and so on.
MRS. MOORE: At the time, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: At the time, and now
you've got new information and I think perhaps
amended relief, you know, it's --amended
alternate relief or amended notice --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's the
reason why I asked the question will you
accept alternate relief because --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, I thought so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- this Board --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
misunderstood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- cause this Board
may not want you to reconstruct this house in
toto.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Demolish the house.
MRS. MOORE: I apologize. Usually your
alternate relief is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Setback and so on, so I
misunderstood your question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They also may not
be interested in creating a different roofline
on the garage, which creates more space over
the garage. The uniqueness about this
particular application, in similarity to the
one that we had on the Sound with you, which
we're not going to discuss cause we have a
lawsuit at this time with that one, okay, is
the fact that we've only granted you exactly
what you had in that particular application as
is the case or could be the case in this
application. Okay, meaning square footage to
square footage, except for the fact that
you're looking for a second story.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, but please keep in
mind the facts of this case --
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
BOARD ASST.:
as per plans.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
(Inaudible) as per plans,
I'm sorry.
As per plans also that you
submit to the ZBA which may be different than
what you've already submitted to --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, ultimately what we would
be building out is less than this plan. So in
a sense it's a lesser design. Usually when
you've approved the larger you can shrink
down, you just can't expand. That's how the
Building Department, I think, in the past has
looked at it that if you approve this,
anything less is fine. You don't need to have
-- we don't have problems.
BOARD ASST.: We don't have anything for
a new foundation. There's nothing in our plan
to indicate you're building a new foundation.
MRS. MOORE:
foundation.
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
We don't need a new
You don't need it?
No.
You just raised
No, we were just,
existing only needed to be raised,
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and that I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
did say in my application, raised to the level
of FEMA.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. That's what I
thought.
MRS. MOORE: So now that raising doesn't
have to occur, so --
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Please, I guess we're
kind of getting wrapped in the details of the
construction, but please keep in mind, in this
situation, we have five houses in the entire
neighborhood. It's an isolated property. We
have no neighbors on either side. It's the
Town of Southold. We are, if you look around
the neighborhood, the Zang house is a two-
story that was approved by this Board.
Another neighbor is a two-story house. Of the
five, I think there's only one that is still a
ranch, but otherwise everybody else is a two-
story house. Everybody is similarly setback
from the setbacks, side yards, front, and to
the bulkhead as is evidenced by the previous
variance applications and so on. So it seems
to me that the request and whether you define
in this instance demolition to be something
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
complete teardown is, you know, you wouldn't
approve, but repairs and alterations, however
it's defined by the Building Department, is
acceptable. It can work that way, too.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MRS. MOORE: It's
want me to go back, we
This sounds like --
really up to you if you
can modify the plans,
go back to the Building Department and show
them what we have originally it's just a
difference in the foundation, that's it. That
was the only difference.
MEMBER SIMON: Since the ones you're
comparing were neither demolitions nor were
they called demolitions or presented as
demolitions, this sounds like you've made a
pretty good argument for a new application,
one that's quite different from the one that
you've submitted.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) the -- the
definition of demolition is --
MEMBER SIMON: Well, you can't fast and
loose with definitions. Sometimes you want to
call it a demolition for these purposes and
sometimes you don't. I -- does everybody use
the notion of demolition in such a loosy goosy
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
way as you've proposed?
MRS. MOORE: I wish, you know, honestly
it's a definition that should be in the Code,
if you want to stick to a particular
definition. The problem of the loosy goosy is
it depends on who you're asking, because it's
subjective and it's not the Building
Department, it remains that way.
MEMBER SIMON: Well --
MRS. MOORE: It's amorphous definition.
So I don't know how best to do it. So --
MEMBER SIMON: -- you're saying your
definition is so good and it's so amorphous
that we can disregard what the Building
Department says about calling it a demolition?
MRS. MOORE: No, I'm sorry, I don't know
that I'm saying that.
MEMBER SIMON: I mean it sounds -- if I
was a Building Inspector, I would be very
annoyed if I heard testimony that said it's
true the Building Department calls it
demolition, but they don't really know what
they're doing because they call everything a
demolition. Come on, respect the Building
Department. Everybody does on our Board.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I don't think I said that at
any point in time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we just wrap
this up? Okay, I just need to ask you one
quick question.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The information
that we have in the file reflects a revision,
meaning the plans from Angel Chorno --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- are from plans
1/14/09 and we see that on June 3, '09 and
then became 6313 as we have it today. Is
there anything, any plan different than the
one that you are calling out at this time or
is that the plan?
MR. CHORNO: That is the plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is the plan.
MRS. MOORE:
now. What took
this drawing on
That is our only plan right
so long was trying to show
the survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MRS. MOORE: So it was a long time
between January and June to make sure the
survey was accurate. So -- but I don't want
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
to create a problem for the client. It's just
a, I mean, again, never say something is
simple because it stinks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, so we're
going to wrap this --
MRS. MOORE: So tell me what you want me
to do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to wrap
it up and the point in question is from a
symmetrical point I ask the question will you
accept alternate relief?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's all I
need to know.
Is there anybody else who would like to
be heard on this application?
Seeing no hands --
MRS. MOORE: Can I just -- alternate
relief being the construction technique, you
know, that's what I'm concerned with.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, well I can't
tell you that until we get into the
deliberation aspect.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I have to trust you --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If I could tell you
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
that, I --
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
-- that you'll be fair.
I would just say you'll
accept alternative relief as long as it meets
your preferences.
we don't.
MRS.
can keep,
Well, either we give it or
MOORE: Well, as long as the client
you know, what they have. So I
think what they're asking for are minimal
modifications to what they have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This Board has not
necessarily ever asked any client to go in
with a backhoe and take something down that
exists presently, as is presently there, and I
don't remember ever granting a decision to do
that. Okay? So that's the answer, okay, to
the best of my ability.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I will, based
upon that situation, I will make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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112
ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING #6317 - Robert and
Barbara Lewis
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Waiver to unmerge +/-
21,264 square feet of land comprising Lot 279
on the 1922 amended Map A, Nassau Club
Properties (CTM 1000-111-2-10), from the
remaining 39,397 square feet of land
comprising Lot 278 on a Map of Section C,
Nassau Point Club Properties, Inc. and the
southerly portion of Lot 277 on an Amended Map
A of Nassau Point (CTM 1000-111-2-9), based on
the Building Inspector's May 15,
of Disapproval which states that
lot merged with the adjacent lot
in common ownership with the first lot at any
time after July 1, 1983, pursuant to Code
Section 280-10. Location of Property: 600
and 700 West Cove Road, Nassau Point/Nassau
Club Properties,
MS. DOTTY:
representing Dr.
2009 Notice
the subject
has been held
Lewis both of whom are here in the audience.
I believe they want to speak to the Board.
Preliminary matters, (inaudible) --
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Debra Dotty, I'm here
Robert Lewis and Barbara
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. DOTTY: Two of the remaining cards,
the third one the notice has not been picked
up as of this morning and it's not been picked
up. The people who have not picked up their
notice are the people to the north. So they
are the least impacted of the two immediate
neighbors.
We're requesting a waiver of merger of
two lots that appear on the tax map. Lot #10,
which is 21,264 square feet or as the Town
records reflect 0.596 of an acre and that is
the vacant parcel; lot #9 is 39,397 square
feet or according to the Town records 1.04
acres, that is the improved parcel. The
square footage is based on a survey that was
prepared in 1971 or '72, I don't have the date
right in front of me, that survey runs along
the bulkhead in point of fact the lots
actually go out into the water. A subdivision
map controls the size of the lots that are
conveyed, not the meets and bounds description
in the deed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's square
footage.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
in other words
MS. DOTTY:
underwater.
MS. DOTTY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not buildable area.
MS. DOTTY: Right, but we have additional
square footage, so the 39,000 square feet is
actually more than 39,000 square feet because
it goes in -- I'm just saying we have larger
lots --
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's land underwater
Yeah, there's land
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that you want to
include in the calculations.
MS. DOTTY: Yes. I prefer, obviously,
the 1.04 acres on the large parcel and that's
what the Town has. So --
I first met the Lewis' two years ago when
they called me and said you represent George
McAdams and we need to get a satisfaction of a
mortgage from 1971.
McAdams, he now is
(inaudible). So I
Yeah, I represent George
103 or 104 and he's a
prepared the satisfaction,
got him to sign it and then our relationship
evolved into estate planning, that was with
the Lewis' I should say, and they said well we
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
own two lots on Nassau Point and we wish to
leave one lot to one child and the other lot
to the other lot to the other child and I was
in the unfortunate position of saying to them,
well, gee, those lots have merged on the Town
Code. They said, but we get two tax bills.
They are known by two different addresses,
nobody ever told us and I spent some time
discussing with them the implications of the
merger law and they were confused and really,
you know, I can't blame them.
They, the Lewises actually did some
research and they came up with something that
I had never seen, I probably had seen it in
the newspaper, I know I have, it's an ad from
the local paper (inaudible) for the merger law
to get enacted and it says if you own more
than one undersized lot you have to talk to an
attorney. In fact, the merger law says --
BOARD ASST.: We've seen this one.
MS. DOTTY: Okay. The merger law says,
and I'm paraphrasing, a nonconforming lot will
merge with an adjoining conforming lot until
it eventually becomes a conforming lot. So
I'm not saying that the Lewises relied on this
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
ad, but obviously somebody was confused when
this ad was issued and it really continues to
create some confusion as far as people are
concerned when they go researching into the
Town Code or the Town law.
Most of the history of the lot is
contained in my application. George McAdams
bought one lot, built a house on it, bought
the southerly half of the adjoining northerly
lot. We're not trying to create two lots out
of that, alright. The sister bought the
southern lot, which is the vacant lot, and she
bought that in '42. In 1971 both lots were
conveyed to the Lewises. In the purchase the
mortgage that accompanied that there was a
provision that they -- it said basically that
they could convey the unimproved parcel and,
if that were the case and they paid off the
mortgage, it would be released from the
mortgage.
So clearly during the sale and purchase
it was contemplated that the Lewis' were
buying two lots. They have maintained the
vacant lot as an unimproved independent lot.
They've stored some firewood on it, that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
basically it. There was a herd of deer living
in there this year. I saw them hiding in the
rhododendron.
We are trying to get this Board and we
think the Board should recognize the original
lot lines on the filed map as between the
vacant lot and the improved lot. We're not
asking for anything else.
the north. We just want
acres on the vacant land.
We're not going to
1.04 acres and 0.59
The neighbors, as
far as I know, do not object. In fact, the
neighbors to the south said, we'd like, you
know, if you do this, we might want to buy the
vacant land. So --
The majority of the lots in the
neighborhood are more than half an acre and
what I did here because I personally found in
just being chronological, you know, the
listing of each lot next to each other with
the size. I prepared the list and just
reshuffled everything starting with the
largest lot and working my way down.
(Inaudible, not at microphone.)
In any event, you'll see that we're above
the median and, as I said, the majority of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
lots are more than half an acre and we're more
than half an acre. The Town has treated it as
a separate lot all these years. They've
gotten two tax bills. They've paid taxes on
two separate lots. It is the only vacant lot
in the neighborhood. Everything else is built
upon, so one more house is really not going to
make a difference, if they were going to build
on it. They don't intend to build on it.
So I would request that you grant the
waver and I don't know how you want to do
this, whether you want to ask me questions or
listen to the Lewises and then ask me
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to ask you
just a couple of questions first.
MS. DOTTY: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: The history of this and
this is a matter of consistency. Are you
asking for a waiver of merger or are you
asking to say that there never was a merger?
MS. DOTTY: Well, I don't think there
ever should have been a merger, but there was
a merger.
MEMBER SIMON: There's a letter in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
file from the Supervisor,
there never was a merger.
but the Supervisor,
your position?
MS. DOTTY: No,
MEMBER SIMON:
which says that
Not anybody here,
and you say that's not
but that --
Okay, so (inaudible) --
MS. DOTTY: -- goes to confusion more
than anything else.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay and it's not yours?
MS. DOTTY: It is not my letter. I was,
needless to say, surprised when I got it and I
thought maybe we had a new procedure.
MEMBER SIMON: No. That's not --
I just
and so
wanted to make sense of the whole file
MS. DOTTY: I will tell you what happened
there is that I had spent a lot of time as I
said with the Lewises talking about this, you
know, but we get two tax bills, but it's not
two parcels and, as I know Linda knows, I'm
not a big fan of the merger law --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. DOTTY: -- cause it causes a lot of
problems and I finally said, well, maybe you
should talk to an elected official so that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
they hear from their populace what it's doing
to them, what this law is doing to them. So
they met with the Supervisor and that letter
was the result of that meeting.
MEMBER SIMON: I see. The remaining
question is the merger law went in -- what
time was the merger law passed?
MS. DOTTY: The first merger law went
into effect 1983.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I thought.
MS. DOTTY: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So this ad in the Traveler
Watchman of 1996 or so --
MS. DOTTY: '85 or '86, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: You know the (inaudible),
I mean this is 13 years --
MS. DOTTY: I believe I do. I think
that's when they put in the waiver --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. It was
just after the waiver.
MS. DOTTY: It was just after the waiver?
Oh, they put in the Nassau Point provision,
that's what they put in.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright, but I would
assume that, of course, an ad is known only to
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ZBA Town of Southotd - October 1, 2009
the people who read the paper, that part of it
that day, and one of the problems that you
know we've had over the time is a lot of
people didn't know that their properties were
merged and there have been a lot of
discussions, yeah, they're in good company and
one of the reasons I, just as a point of
information, they said well why weren't people
notified when the merger law was passed and
the general one of the questions (sic) I got
was it would have raised havoc. So it was the
people from the Town who knew that it was
better, don't make waves, don't tell people,
don't start unifying tax bills and doing all
these things. So the Town itself back in the
'80s was kind of responsible for much of this
confusion and I guess the point is --
MS. DOTTY: You're right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- we could argue this
thing. I'm not sure the merger law was a bad
law itself, but certainly as drafted it could
have provided a window of opportunity for
people to do something about the merger law to
protect themselves rather than be sandbagged
by it years and years later. So I think
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
that's why we have all of these cases, not
because the merger law is a bad law.
MS. DOTTY: Well, I'm not going to get
into a legal discussion with you about due
process and constitutionality. I don't think
the residents of Southold Town got adequate
notice. I never have felt that way, however,
I'm not here to go to the US Supreme Court on
this one. I'm just seeking a waiver of the
merger in this instance and there are
significant problems with the law as far as
I'm concerned, but I'm not arguing that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think we're here
to just discuss this particular application,
this --
MS. DOTTY: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- particular time
and I'd rather not get involved in any other
discussion --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- particularly the
discussion of vacant land COs that one bank in
this town required for every single solitary
piece of property that they were going to lend
money on. Okay?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MS. DOTTY: We didn't get a vacant land
CO, so you're not going to hear that from me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not saying that
because and I will say this and I'll complete
this conversation and I want to deal with only
that germane issue and that is if you didn't
have the vacant land CO you didn't get money
to build a house, okay, and we found out later
that those particular vacant land COs weren't
worth the paper that they were written on.
Alright, now go on to Leslie.
MS. DOTTY: Is Michael finished?
MEMBER SIMON: I am finished, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. I mean facts
are what they are in this case and I'm just
looking to see if I had any particular
questions relative to it. My notes simply
reflect what you've just reiterated from the
application, from site inspection also that
the lot is one of the few remaining wooded
lots in the area --
MS. DOTTY: It's the only one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and the only one that
doesn't have an improved principle structure
on it. So I'm really, no, I don't really have
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any questions. It was new to me the -- I
wasn't aware of the land underwater issue, but
I think the facts whether you consider that or
not essentially meet the criteria for waiver
anyway.
MS. DOTTY: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no questions.
MEMBER HORNING: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What was the
discussion with Stan Isaksen in your letter
here?
MS. DOTTY: I had been asked to provide
the square footage because
on, based on the survey, I
the square footage myself.
all I could work
could not calculate
I don't know
whether it's simple math or algebra, but I
couldn't do it and so I had -- Linda Kowalski
had asked us for square footage because the
Board's form requires square footage -- I had
originally drafted it using the acreage
because that's a constant. I can go to the
Assessor's Office and compare apples with
apples, but I couldn't compare square footage
with the Assessor's Office information and I
actuaily went to the Building Department to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
see if I could find surveys with square
footages on the other parcels and it was just
hit or miss. So that's why I asked Stan
Isaksen to provide us with the square footage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
Michael, any other questions?
MEMBER SIMON: No. Just a comment.
First of all, it was very helpful that you
gave the information about the comparative
sizes of the surrounding lots. Usually we
just have to look at the Town tax map and it's
not that precise. Secondly, if this is one of
the cases in which the state of ownership
couldn't be clearer cause it's the same owner
before the merger law until now and you did
answer one question that's how did they find
out about the fact that the property was
merged and the answer was probably after it
was too late to do anything except what you're
doing right now and at that time you wouldn't
have been a successful as you might be now
inaudible) the merger law.
MS. DOTTY: It was, to be more precise,
it was February of '08, I believe, is when I
first met with the Lewises and we were talking
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about estate planning and that's when I went,
uh-oh. So that's when they found out.
MEMBER SIMON: I see.
MS. DOTTY: And then eventually they did
appear at the Town Board meeting on the
revision of the law of the Code, so I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: May I -- I just
don't know if it's necessary. If they would
like to speak, they're welcome to, Dr. and
Mrs. Lewis.
DR. LEWIS: We would just be telling you
the story from our point of view that Debra
has shared with you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I
necessary, Doctor, but it's,
don't think it's
you know, we
appreciate you coming.
information.
MS. DOTTY:
from the city, so --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to the podium?
MS. DOTTY:
DR. LEWIS:
should be terse,
did
We appreciate the
They came all the way out
Why don't you then come
This is Dr. Robert Lewis.
Just, I don't know, I guess I
but we were shocked and we
feel that we hadn't been notified in any
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
reasonable kind of way. We were told that the
notice, the legal notice had been put in the
Traveler Watchman paper, which we did not
subscribe to and which had a lot of
advertisements and which they put in our
mailbox, but we never read and I don't know if
we would have understood what the public
notice said anyway cause it was a confusing
law and so we felt extra bad when we noticed
that our four neighbors got certified return
receipt notices of something that wasn't
happening to their land directly, it was
happening to their neighbor's land and we
would have appreciated a little piece of paper
in our tax bills which were sent to us
regularly and which for all those years just
anything telling us that it would have had to
happen within that window of a year or so that
we might have been able to respond and I guess
we would not -- our particular parcel of land,
it's a really spectacular piece of land with a
modest house on it and I think we wouldn't
have had a chance of buying it in 1971 if it
had been like a number of the other homes on
the shoreline of Nassau Point where there were
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quite kind of gracious huge structures on
these pieces of land and in those days people
looked for a home that was commensurate with a
piece of land. Nowadays, if we weren't able
to get relief and we had to give this piece of
land up because we never -- we didn't have the
fallback position of the extra lot, somebody
would just tear everything down and put up
something four times the size. Fortunately,
they didn't do that in those days, so we were
able to get this piece of land because it was
easier for someone to go get a gigantic
structure on a nice piece of land.
I don't know if I'm being clear, but --
so we have no intention, if there's anything
we have to say about it, of ever selling this
because our children love the place as much as
we do and the extra lot is close to the house
and we love the privacy of it, but it is a
failsafe option that we paid for and believed
the terms of the mortgage as they were set
made it clear to everyone that this was a
piece of land that was separate and
potentially sellabte piece of land.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
DR. LEWIS: Thank you.
MRS. LEWIS: I'm Barbara Lewis, I'd like
to just add we've been there for 38 years and
we have changed the garage into a playroom for
the kids, that was two years after we bought
it, but other than that we haven't changed
anything about the land. There's still the
same plantings. We don't have a lawn with
pesticides, we don't have a sprinkler system,
no swimming pool, no tennis courts. It's
really we have kept it the way it was and the
ratio of structure to land mass on our
property is probably very close to what is
described in the Peconic Park booklet of 1883,
which shows Nassau Point as bucolic and I
think we fit into that category and as was
said before if somebody was able to buy if we
had to -- if it couldn't be unmerged and we
had to sell the whole property, somebody would
come in and would demolish the house and put
up as big a structure as they could. Already
at this point our neighbors are within feet on
either side of our property line. So I think
if -- and I think the law was actually, the
merger law actually wanted to avoid high
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density development by parties who assumed
they could unmerge large properties after they
were bought and I think for us it's just the
opposite. By letting us stay on our piece of
property and having the vacant lot as a
fallback position, we actually are
contributing to the fact that Cutchogue for a
little bit longer anyway stays -- keeps its
rustic charm and -- yeah, we're trying to
anyway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
else like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER HORNING: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING #6299 William E. Hamilton
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a carryover.
MRS. MOORE: It's a continuation, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pat, tell us where
you are, what you gave us and what we started
with.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, we've presented to you
revised plans that at the last meeting the
Board asked if we would look to redesign in
order to shrink the pool, make the pool a
little bit narrower. Joe, actually I'm going
to put Joe on the record because it was his
design.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, Joseph Fischetti,
professional engineer.
Mr. Goehringer you had requested the
spillway, you had noted that it was a four-
foot wide spillway and had requested whether
we could make that narrower.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FISCHETTI: I discussed with the pool
contractor, Islandia Pools, and the problem we
reduced it one foot. We could not reduce it
to two feet that you had requested because the
volume of the water that's in there needs so
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
much water to go over the top. His
calculations allowed us to reduce it one foot,
but I did speak to Mr. Hamilton and we reduced
the width of the pool itself an additional
foot so that we could get the two foot that
you had requested. So the pool was originally
I think 13 feet and we've reduced it --
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, 14.
MR. FISCHETTI: 14 and we've reduced it
down to 13. The plans that I sent you also
revised moving the stairway that was
perpendicular to the pool. We moved it to the
side so, in essence, now we have 81 feet to
the pool and actually it shows 77.6 to the
stairway. I don't know why. We could
actually slide that stairway back so that it
actually goes to 81.6, so that the 81.6 would
be the least --
MRS. MOORE: Just so long as it isn't
over the cesspool.
MR. FISCHETTI: No. It's only -- it
looks like three feet and I should be able to
do that fine. So that we could keep the
minimum distance to the top of the bluff as
81.6 and make that work we put it at an angle.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore is there
any reason to get an updated Notice of
Disapproval indicating this?
MRS. MOORE: That's up to you, I think
that's an alternative relief we submitted a
revised plans which are acceptable to
everyone.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does anyone on the
Board have an objection to that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. I just want to ask
about the lot coverage. The original notice
indicated 27.6 percent lot coverage, this
certainly is going to reduce.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, you --
MRS. MOORE: I --
on
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the --
MRS. MOORE: We
What's the calculation
did go back to the
Building Department for --
MR. FISCHETTI: You asked me for those
numbers and we did (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you did. I think that
was either I gave it back to you in written
form (inaudible) lot coverage calculations.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You did give it
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
back --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you must have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I remember seeing
it.
MRS. MOORE: I know I did --
MR. FISCHETTI: It's basically the width
of the pool minus the (inaudible) which is
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: I know it should be part of
my cover letter or -- here we go. The square
footage was reduced by 104 square feet and the
lot coverage was reduced from 27.5 to 27.16.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It's in my letter to you
with the plan dated August 6.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So is there anyone
on the Board that would like to take further
testimony regarding this information that we,
of course, had received very expeditiously
after the hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we did. The only
thing, Joe, could you just submit for the file
an explanation about moving the stairs, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
set of steps so that the setback is the same
from the bulkhead as the deck?
MRS. MOORE: Or you can do it based on
the record.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) --
MR. FISCHETTI: Not bulkhead, top of the
bluff.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Top of the bluff, sorry.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, from top of the bluff.
You can do it --
MR. FISCHETTI: Would you let me verbally
MRS. MOORE: Do you want him to
the record verbally or --
MR. FISCHETTI: -- do you want me to
write you a letter that will revise that?
I'll do it as a letter.
do it on
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
next week.
do it as a letter.
We'd like that in
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then we have that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We got the other
stuff real quick.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, we can do that within
days, yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
clarifies it cause it's not
MR. FISCHETTI: I just
136
October 1, 2009
I mean, it just
on the plan.
looked at it and -
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FISCHETTI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
And you just went, dub.
Right.
But that way we can clip
that letter to the most recent amended plan so
that we can be consistent in the bluff
setback.
MRS. MOORE: Leslie, I know -- I went
back and read the transcript from the last
meeting just to bring me up to speed cause it
has been a while, you asked for the transcript
of the Trustees' hearing regarding the
landscaping or the, not landscaping, the
revegetation plan that was approved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: I have the transcript if you
want it for your purposes, but maybe it's not
necessary.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think it's --
well, I think we've heard enough testimony to
understand from the --
MRS. MOORE: Okay, fine. Yes, it was a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
revegetation plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible) that it's
a revegetation plan. My concern was what's
happened with the clear cutting, but now it's
understood that the clear cutting was a
consequence of invasive species being
eliminated. I'm not thrilled that they had to
put so much Round-up toxic poison in order to
get rid of those.
MRS. MOORE:
Well,
that's the phragmite -
MEMBER WEISMAN: I know. I know, but
they stay there in the soils. Anyway the
point is that that was an approved procedure
and it's clear what happened there.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
any other Board member?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No
Any questions from
questions.
anybody
Estates
MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any questions from
in the public, this is Grandview
in Orient.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING %6322 - Richard Ehrlich
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Special Exception for
Restaurant Use in an existing building under
Town Code Section 280-55-B(1}. Location of
Property: 64755 Main Road, Greenport; CTM
1000-56-4-22. Zone District: Marine M-II."
Okay, so we just got a letter from --
today about -- we got a letter from a neighbor
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I was going to say, not
from me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, not from you. I'm
just trying to find that letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Joseph Miterani.
MRS. MOORE: Which neighbor cause I did
get -- I got one -- I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Joseph Miterani.
Di dyou get a copy of that?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's a fax.
MRS. MOORE: I got 2 Shale Road and
another one Miterani.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Miterani.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. Linda was
kind enough to forward it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you like to
answer that letter of Miterani?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that letter.
MRS. MOORE: Let me
"we would like to ensure
Just let her answer
read it again. Okay,
that there would be
sufficient parking," okay. As
well, I can paraphrase for you.
least in their first paragraph,
to the first,
They are, at
they are
supportive of the restaurant use. They
acknowledge that it has been a restaurant
there before. Things that they were concerned
about, they said they would want the Zoning
Board to ensure that there would be sufficient
parking spaces for the business enough to
avoid overflow parking with the inevitable
noise and garbage that goes along with it.
This has been a restaurant in the past.
It has received site plan for the restaurant.
The Hollisters received site plan approval.
It is remaining as it was as far as seating,
there was always adequate, just your own
knowledge visiting there as well as passing
by, most of us remember when Hollister's was
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
in operation and they had no problem keeping
the parking within the parking lot, which is
where it's intended. This property is large
enough and it's certainly adequate parking to
meet the -- comply with the Code with respect
to parking needs.
The property had a -- to the east of this
property there's a right-of-way that gives
access to some homes behind. We can assure we
don't park in the right-of-way and that's not
-- that's an adjacent property, so I believe
that's part of the Tuccio property. So our
property is well -- it's certainly large
enough it can accommodate the parking. So we
have no problem if you want to make that a
condition. I think it's certainly reasonable.
Okay, ensure that the septic system is
adequate for the business. Yes. We can
assure you that we are going to be submitting
this to the Health Department and the Health
Department will assure the Town that we
comply. Actually there was a whole new
sanitary system that was approved by the
Health Department back in '85. We may have to
make some modifications to it. That's still
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
to be determined. Okay, we will
have to comply with whatever the
Department directs us to do. We
ultimately
Health
were hoping
that they would recognize that the Hollister
Restaurant, again, there's no change to the
building as far as seating goes, we would hope
that they would activate the old, but the
Health Department operates their own rules and
we may have to make modifications.
As far as assurance that the garbage from
the restaurant is dealt with as securely as
possible to "avoid explosion of rat population
that we had experienced in the past when other
restaurants occupied the building." I did
speak to my client about these things. He
said, absolutely. He has a current restaurant
that he operates and it's a well-kept and
clean facility next to the marina. So the
garbage is the standard -- garbage removal is
the standard practice in a good restaurant
business. So that would certainly -- we would
comply with that request as well and that's
about it for his comments.
Did I address the cormments to your
satisfaction?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think so.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, this has had site
plan approval previously by the Planning Board
as a restaurant since 1969. It has a CO.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To serve technicality to
make sure that the use is a permitted use in
perpetuity to ensure that that's not going to
be a problem. In 1994 zoning map was amended,
property was rezoned from B to Marine II.
MRS. MOORE: And it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, the problem was it
wasn't continuously used so it lost its as of
right use and my questions. Any changes
proposed to the height or the setbacks of the
existing building?
MRS. MOORE: I don't believe so. There
may be some roof design change, but not --
certainly all complying with the Code. I
think there's just architectural design change
to the roof, yes, and a cupola also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're going to
have to stand up.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you're going to have
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to put it on the record, sorry.
MR. KIEL: I'm sorry. Brett Kiel, East
End Design Associates.
On the roof we may end up putting like a
glass octagon cupola-type thing, but nothing
over I would say 8 feet probably above the
ridge that's there in just one section just
for a look. Other than that, the roofline
will be the same height all the way across.
MRS. MOORE: You're not changing the
pitch of the roof a little bit?
MR. KIEL: No, roof stays the same.
MRS. MOORE: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the pitch remains the
same. These have to do with questions related
to the Planning Board that's why I'm asking
them in terms of previous site plan review.
Okay. These were co~nents. Any proposed
changes in the parking circulation or exterior
lighting?
MRS. MOORE: Uh, well the parking is
being -- I think they are just making sure
that we have adequate parking to meet the
Code. I think it's still staying the same,
isn't it?
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mean
MEMBER WEISMAN: You mean the survey, you
the survey.
MRS. MOORE: Survey, I'm sorry.
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MR. KIEL: I --
MRS. MOORE: There may be some slight
adjustment because of the site plan, from the
site plan that was approved in '85 they looked
like there was a little bit of extra black top
in one area, so we may just bring that back in
to -- I guess it'll be up to the Building
Department if we put that back as grass or we
keep it as is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. See what -- well,
we don't have jurisdiction over site plan
approval --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and it's already been
done. I mean, I'm asking these because the
previous, what we have is a very old sketchy
little survey, that's about it, in our
application. We've got some drawings of the
building inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, if you look carefully
at the site plan versus the existing
conditions, it's almost that. I want to --
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
site plan.
MRS. MOORE: No.
Cause we don't have the
Well, you have the site
plan that was approved by the Planning Board
in your packet, I'm pretty sure you do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm looking. I have a
(inaudible) survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't see it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we don't have a site
plan. Wait a minute, what is this thing?
Yes, we do.
MRS. MOORE: There, you do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's so illegible.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it comes from the
computer. I apologize that's the best I got.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We do, it's here. Site
plan, Larry and Violet Tuminello.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
1985.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
the Town records.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yeah, Tuminello.
Approved Planning Board
Right, that comes from
Let's just ask -- let me
just carryon asking these questions.
MRS. MOORE: You can. I'm trying to be
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as precise to your questions as I can so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. Sure. What I'm
trying to get at is I would like to see this
stop here with the ZBA.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And not have to go back
to the Planning Board.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Planning Board
approved a site plan --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- so what I'm trying to
do is find out how consistent this proposed
renovation is going to be with the preapproved
site plan.
MRS. MOORE: Right, but remember that the
previous site plan was based on seating and
that's remaining. So and then the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the same number of
seats?
MRS. MOORE: Same number of seats.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, as previously
approved and that will determine parking.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. So parking the
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same. How about circulation, ingress and
egress?
MRS. MOORE: Circulation the same, yeah,
they have two means of -- well circular
ingress/egress.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and, finally, there
is no exterior lighting anywhere on the
parking area.
MRS. MOORE: Oh --
MR. KIEL: Landscaping lighting in the
front across the whole front hedges at this
point and they have a strip on either side of
the east and west entrance that has the little
pier lighting like about a foot and a half off
the ground that might stay, but if anything it
would then be more landscape lighting and just
maybe some lights on around the building.
Nothing that's going to be worried about sky,
you know --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Dark skies. Yeah, I
don't want any spillage over onto the
residential properties.
MRS. MOORE: Right. Well, that would be
probably Code Enforcement would deal with
that.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it would, but I'd
like the record to just include that.
MRS. MOORE: There's no plans for it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So landscape lighting
and then some building security lighting and
so on, but nothing that will spill over.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, let's see what
else.
MR. KIEL: There's preexisting lighting
on a pole on the eastern property and --
MRS. MOORE: Here?
MR. KIEL: On that line there.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, it shows there.
MR. KIEL: Where the dumpster area was,
preexisting up on the pole.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. KIEL: I think that was the only
me,
light.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, actually showing on
the site plan as "Light on pole".
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you could find it
your eyes are better than mine.
MRS. MOORE: Look on the right hand --
for
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the east side of the property is a little
circle.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's it?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I can see "LT on
pole". So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: LT on pole.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pat, you couldn't
find the site plan out of the Planning Board,
the actual file wasn't downstairs?
MRS. MOORE: I didn't requisition it. So
I took it from the computer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, alright. Well,
it's hieroglyphics.
MRS. MOORE: Actually I would -- I
darkened it for you, this is good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely, you jest.
MRS. MOORE: Believe it or not, I did do
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, as long as we
can assure the neighbors on the residential
properties, that right-of-way, that the
concerns that they have listed in their letter
to us will be conditions. Approval will be
conditioned upon meeting those very easily
obtained circumstances.
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MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now let me see what I
have over here. No, I think as long as we
have no change in the number of seats, we're
good on the parking, egress/ingress, lighting.
Now that's a -- is the dumpster going to stay
where it is? That's a construction dumpster
it looks like.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the one in the -- that's
the one that's going to be construction. That
looks like a storage building.
MR. KIEL: No, no. It's the same -- are
you talking about
MRS. MOORE: Are
back?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. KIEL:
you talking about the
I'm talking about back?
That's just storage for the
stuff that was in the
MEMBER WEISMAN:
staying?
MRS. MOORE: No,
MR. KIEL: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: No,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
restaurant.
Alright, that's not
no.
Okay.
that's just like a POD.
What about that fenced
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area that looked like it had --
MR. KIEL: That'll probably be re-fenced
but probably made smaller cause that thing was
so big it was --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So full of weeds
growing.
MR. KIEL: Yeah and it will be cleared
out and probably a concrete pad --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Put down.
MR. KIEL: -- were you put the dumpster
right on it and it'll be probably a daily
pickup of garbage at a restaurant. You don't
let it sit around and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right.
MR. KIEL: -- it'll just be maintained.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that makes a lot
more sense then it's out of sight and if as --
MR. KIEL: They close it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it's picked up during
reasonable hours so it doesn't disturb the
neighbors in the case of any noise.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to ask a
quick question. This restaurant will not
contain the same name, it will be a new name?
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MRS. MOORE: I don't know that that's
been decided yet. Are you talking about from
the Barge?
MEMBER HORNING: Port of Egypt.
MRS. MOORE: I honestly am not sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. This
presently is a year-round restaurant?
MRS. MOORE: The Barge right now is a
year-round restaurant, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is this one
construed to be a --
MRS. MOORE: The intention is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- year-round
restaurant? Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I mean the
improvements are such.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Certainly the
summer months require a much higher volume in
parking and sanitary, a much higher volume
than the winter months, the fall, not
necessarily the fall, not necessarily the
later spring, but definitely the winter is
slower, okay. Is there any overflow parking
that is land banked in any way for the summer
push or the summer rush?
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MRS. MOORE: Well, I -- I mean this
property goes quite a bit further back. There
is always, you know, possibility of adding, if
it's necessary. I don't think that, based on
their experience, even with the Barge it's --
you know, it's the number of seating. You can
be very busy, but there's only a certain
number of seats that you can occupy. So if we
needed to have cars park in the grass, that's
usually the common place overflow, but the
number of spaces usually from going to
Hollister's, and it was pretty popular in its
day had a good salad bar, even in its most
popular time there was always adequate
parking. So we also have Barge --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (inaudible) the number
of seats because if the seats are not -- then
the Code says and the Code determines the
number of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the purpose of
dealing with it differently than a variance on
a Special Permit is to actually accommodate
any other types of things that are not
necessarily ordinary covering that Special
Permit.
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MRS. MOORE: Well, we would have plenty
of space if we had cars that need it, but I
wouldn't encourage more black topping for
those periodic heavy times. You're better off
just using the grass and having people park on
the grass. It just -- you don't change the
look of the property that way and there is
certainly plenty of space there. Including
the entrance ways are very large, they're 30
feet in width. So you could have cars
parallel to the roadway there, the 30-foot
entrance ways and you'd still have plenty of
room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask you a
question, the septic --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- cause that goes back
to '85, can you submit to the Board, please, a
notice indicating, I mean it has to be to Code
anyway, it's going to have to be. The Health
Department is going to have to --
MRS. MOORE: We don't have a choice. We
have to -- yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Board of Health is
going to be --
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but we don't -- we're
in the process of designing the system. I
think we had a meeting, we had an initial
meeting cause our hope was my client was
hoping to make this a turnkey, you know,
startup cause he's on a timeframe for his
restaurant. So this has been kind of a delay
and then when we met, my first reaction to it
was have you looked, you know, have you talked
to the Health Department because they'll take
any opportunity to bring a system even more
into conformity even though '85 to now there
really hasn't been a significant change.
They're looking at it one way or another.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we're going to
need to see a survey with the septic on it.
MRS. MOORE: Well, you have that here in
MEMBER WEISMAN: A new one?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. The survey that is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Those pools still okay?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, those are the
(Inaudible, not at
functioning systems. Yeah.
MR. KIEL: They work.
microphone.)
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it has a Health
Department stamp on it from 1986. So that was
the new system that was constructed right
before the renovation to the building in the
'80s. So they must have come to the Planning
Board, got an approval and then gone and
finished up with the Health Department
February of '86, given the timeframe, and then
that's the actual Health Department stamped
construction plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, anybody
else like to speak for or against this
application?
MEMBER HORNING: I have questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I'm sorry,
George. I apologize.
MEMBER SIMON: Just one question. How
long has it been empty?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's more than two
years.
MEMBER SIMON: I know that, I just was
curious.
MRS. MOORE: '04.
MEMBER SIMON: '04.
MRS. MOORE: December. My client --
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MEMBER SIMON: So it is a --
UNIDENTIFIED: '02 or '04.
MEMBER SIMON: It is a section --
technical requirement necessitated by the fact
that you're a couple of years over.
MRS. MOORE: Correct, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I apologize for
that. It seems that he took title to this on
'02, so it's probably just before '02.
MRS. MOORE: Right. Well, it would have
been two years from that point he acquired it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was just looking
at the property card when you --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, thank you cause I had It
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: July, June or July
of '07.
MEMBER HORNING: One other question for
the public record here. They're going to have
a building permit; is that correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, we hope. Yes. This is
all leading to a building -- we actually made
a building permit application, but that's when
Mike reviewed it and said no, unfortunately
because of the change of zone or the change to
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the zoning code from the business to the M-II.
M-II has a restaurant use as a special permit
not an as-of-right permitted use and, because
of the period of time that the restaurant had
been closed, he felt that we needed to
reactivate this use through a Special Permit
process. So that's why we're here.
MEMBER HORNING: Is there a chance of
getting a Notice of Disapproval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, this is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No this is a Special
Exception.
MEMBER HORNING: No, I mean for the
building permit process.
MRS. MOORE: I think we gave you one, did
they do it without --
MEMBER HORNING:
really is that, okay,
Well, what I'm asking
you get the Special
Exception. You say that you're going to do
some renovations, there's some talk about roof
work, a cupola, this kind of thing. You admit
you're going to need a building permit to do
these things.
MRS. MOORE: Right. Right.
MEMBER HORNING: What is the chance of
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the Building Department denying your
application and you coming to us again for
some other thing --
MRS. MOORE: Very good point.
MEMBER HORNING: -- regarding the plot
plan or whatever?
MRS. MOORE: I wasn't involved initially
with Mike. Did he -- he saw this plan? Ail I
can do is go back to him and say, just would
you look at this plan carefully and see if it
needs anything else and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's be honest,
Pat, what you would say to him is that we are
going through the Special Exception and how
come you didn't deny us prior to that so we
could run both hearings at the same time.
MRS. MOORE: I never am mean to Mike. I
might say it in my brain, but I wouldn't do
that to him. Yeah, we would hate to have to
make any -- well, the alterations right now
are the only -- whether or not the Building
Department would give us the cupola, or not,
would be the issue cause it's mostly the
alterations to the building itself is mostly
siding, windows --
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MR. KIEL: Roofing, trim, exterior trim
and then the interior renovation (inaudible)
in leveling the floors --
MRS. MOORE: Right. So there's no
footprint change to the --
MEMBER HORNING: Alright, thank you.
MRS. MOORE: -- structure, so I think
that's why he felt it was alright. Now the
cupola? I don't know.
MEMBER HORNING: Yeah, okay.
MEMBER SIMON: That's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, again.
I apologize.
Anybody else who would like to speak for
or against this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6318 - Marc and
Deirdre Sokol
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Requests for Variances under Sections
280-105 (A and B), based on the Building
Inspector's revised June 26, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning installation of a fence
which will exceed the code-limitation of four
feet in height when located in a front yard,
and will exceed the code limitation of 6.5
feet when located in the side and rear yards,
at 250 and 350 Lakeside Drive, Southold; CTM
1000-90-3-15 and 16."
Okay, this is a situation obviously with
two front yards. It's a lot that goes through
from one street to the next and the intent is
to put up 8-foot high deer fencing proposed
inside the line of existing Privet hedge.
MRS. MOORE: Privet, yes. Thank you.
Just for your file and Mr. Horning I
think you were there,
inspection.
MEMBER HORNING:
thank you, for doing an
Yes.
MRS. MOORE: The Cedar Beach Park
Association had given us a letter. The
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Association has no objection
place our fence what is within the
way area of Lakeside Drive. It is
inside of an existing Privet hedge,
(inaudible)
right-of-
on the
so road
the maybe 50 feet wide, but the passage way is
much narrower. There, as we'll state on the
record, we have -- there is on the outside of
the Privet a four-foot fence, then there is
the Privet hedge, which is about 10 feet, 8 to
10 feet in natural growth and then inside is
the 8-foot deer fence. So it is screened
completely. The neighbors if you drove around
you saw that there are a couple of properties
that have similar fences. This is really the
only protection that some of the homeowners
find is productive in keeping the deer out.
They are very prevalent in this area and
my client not only has a beautiful yard, a
very vegetative yard that's attractive to the
deer, but he has young children and his
concern is to having the deer going through
with the tick-borne diseases that also add to
the fear and the health problems that occur
here. So he was really -- I think they tried
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their best to keep the deer fence so that it
is not visible, it is not -- it's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What color is it?
MRS. MOORE: It's either dark green or
black, I think.
MEMBER HORNING: It's black.
MRS. MOORE: Black, yeah. It's not the
orange ugly thing. It's not that. So you
really -- one wouldn't really notice. You
don't see it from the street because it's
behind this very lush Privet hedge.
So do you have any particular questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: A couple.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is a part of the
property that abuts an inlet and it's a sort
of a curved situation.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it says here
proposed seasonal proposed temporary deer
Can you elaborate upon that?
MOORE: Right. Yes. What they
fencing.
MRS.
found is that they can
property, but the deer
through the inlet. So
fence their entire
swim onto the property
they have to go
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obviously to get permission from the Trustees
to allow them to put temporary measures to
block the deer. You know, they are -- they
live in Chicago during the year and they come
out so there is -- it's difficult to try to
keep the animals -- I think if you were here
all the time between the pets and so on you
can do your best to not make it pleasant for
the deer to hang around, but when you have it
as a seasonal, you know, as a weekend home,
the deer learn a passage way and they don't
care that you're a weekend resident. They'll
just come through. So in what they found is
that putting the fence along the water really
helps and that keeps the deer away.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that --
MRS. MOORE: The
posts with a mesh.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
What kind of fencing is
same deer. It's just
It's a terrible problem
town wide, but especially difficult problem
over in the Cedar Beach area. There's herds
roaming all over the place and we're very
aware of that. This is a special situation,
too, with the two front yards. The dilemma is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
felt I think everywhere, but the problem when
you put up this high fencing is, of course, it
displaces the problem to the neighbors. It
doesn't stop the problem of deer, it just --
MRS. MOORE: Pushes it to someone else,
yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- puts it elsewhere.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that's why everybody
here has put up fences.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, everybody hasn't.
I did do a lot of driving around in the area
and the one advantage that this property owner
has is that there are already in place mature,
you know, vegetative screens. Does the
applicant intend to remove the four-foot high
fence that is actually on the right-of-way
practically? I mean it is on the edge of that
road. I think it's probably on the Town's
property and not the applicant's.
MRS. MOORE: No, the Town -- these are
private roads. They're not
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
Association's property.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's
yes.
owned by the Town.
then it's on the
why I gave you -
I gave you a letter from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Association --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
property.
MRS. MOORE: -- yeah, I
when I first spoke to them I
As opposed to this
know, that's why
actually am
familiar with Cedar Beach community and I said
well you better have a letter of authorization
to do this because, you know, while it's not
an issue for you you wouldn't want to, you
know, you want to know that one way or
another.
As far as the four-foot fence, I think it
helps -- okay, it keeps at least the street
side vegetated on the top.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We've seen many an
Arborvitae nude all the way up to about four
and a half feet --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- wherever the neck can
stretch. Well, let's see, you know, it's a
difficult situation to me because it's
potentially a precedent setting determination
MRS. MOORE: Well, you can -- yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The tallest fence that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the Code currently permits is 6 foot 5 inches
in a rear yard.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, given the nature of
this property I think we can kind of consider
rather flexible what is a rear, what is a
front and so on and clearly put it up in one
part and not everywhere is not going to solve
the problem. So it's perimeter, it's total
perimeter fencing that you're looking at. My
question is would you consider alternate
relief in terms of height?
MRS. MOORE: If you can --
that the deer can be managed at
height -- if it's not going to stop the deer,
then it's a useless fence. So as far as
alternate relief, your alternate relief would
be the height of the fence and this has been
proven to work. As you reduce the height of
the fence, then the deer just jump up and now
that it's a lush yard, they'll be that much
more encouraged to really feast inside this
property.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I speak to that in
follow-up to Leslie's question?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Go ahead.
MEMBER SIMON: First of all,
around there and I realized that
I walked
there really
is a problem and the fence as proposed is
minimally obtrusive, especially since it's
behind this fence. One of the conditions I
think I would recommend since I'm one person
is that those Privet hedges stay there. I
don't think there's any problem with that.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: I am concerned with the
same kind of question that Leslie raised and I
was surprised that in so far as your argument
depends on the fact that deer are a menace in
the town and the problem is there are too many
of them and so forth and so on, this is not
the kind of problem that the Zoning Board is
really prepared to solve for one particular
homeowner because it displaces the problem.
So those arguments are probably better made
before a Town Board that's going to try to do
something about that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, there have been some
discussions --
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MEMBER SIMON: I know and I think that
would be a good idea. I also think that
arguably business owners aside, that kind of
fence, the black soft fence, so to speak, that
is used might even be conceivably written into
the Code as an exception for the chain link
fence for example which is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
everybody to be aware that
barred.
I just want
we need to stop in
a couple -- about two minutes to change tapes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. So the -- but then
the question is how high does it have to be?
I wonder if you would be prepared to either
have us or submit some testimony about what
the critical height is. I mean we don't know
whether 8 is high enough or whether it is
higher than it needs to be and just to say 8
feet rather than 6-1/2 feet, it would be nice
to have something more persuasive otherwise
somebody is going to come around and say on
the precedent of this 8-foot fence we think
studies show that 10-feet is all we need. I
think we need something a little bit more
solid so we can grant that number because
we've got other applications to be concerned
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
about.
MRS. MOORE: I can --
- can we have --
I will inquire of
We need to hold it
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
right there.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, you're going to change
the tape?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
{TAPE CHANGE)
MRS. MOORE: Are you ready? Okay, what I
would ask is the Sokol's mother-in-law, Mrs.
Sokol's mother and father who live in the
neighborhood and kind of caretake for the
property, they could provide a little bit of
personal knowledge and experience in this area
cause they both live there as well as care for
this property. So with your permission, put
your name on the record and --
MS. PISACARA: My name is Ann Pisacara, I
live at 150 Lakeside Drive North, which is
just around the corner from this.
What I wanted to say is the one thing
about the height, if you observe the farms all
around they have 8-foot fences. That's like
the standard to keep deer from getting in is 8
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
feet. So that seems to have been an adopted
standard. The other thing I wanted to point
out is the deer are probably everywhere in
Southold. We're at the bottom of the
peninsula and I think what happens is the deer
are steered down to our part of the Town.
Also there is a preserve right around the
corner ironically called the Wolf Preserve, if
you don't know, it's a wolf preserve, and
that's both a sanctuary for the deer as well
as an attraction for the deer and that's why
as you walk down main Bayview you'll see the
Highway Department has put up a series of four
or five signs saying deer crossing within
what, a quarter of a mile or something, and
they put those up when deer are killed. They
don't tell us what happened to the driver of
the car, but we can assume that within the
past year four deer have been killed there.
It's an intense population. I think it's
certainly more than you would find in most
other parts of Southold.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I share
something with you?
MS. PISACARA: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I did a little
something different before this hearing, I
spoke to some landscapers, okay, and they told
me there's an extremely hot area in reference
to deer population and, of course, I've been
going to Cedar Beach for many, many years.
It's an absolutely beautiful area, there's no
question about it.
My particular concern with this
application is just as we had discussed
throughout some of the hearings that you may
or may not have been to, that's not a
derogatory statement, when we make a decision
it does tend to go with the land. So I'm
really looking to steer this particular
decision toward our legal department and
asking them for a particular statement so that
if something happens in some case, something -
- if we make a decision as towns people to
control this deer population in some way that
there may not be a need for fencing like this
and that that fencing, once it becomes
deteriorated, would not be replaced.
Okay, now I realize that the fencing
itself is metal with plastic over it or it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
metal painted and the posts are treated posts
and they last a long time and so on and so
forth, but my concern is that once we grant
many of these they're always going to be
there.
I also discussed with the landscaper the
possibility of what the individual deer
population does to the basic foliage that you
have there now and that's of course to this
Privet hedge stuff and they said well they
don't uniquely eat that all the time. They
only eat it when they're really desperate.
Okay, because they really don't like that. So
what you'll see them do is eat pieces of it or
pockets of it in certain areas, okay. Atright
and mainly probably in the winter months when
they're starving conceivably. I honestly
believe they go to Cedar Beach because it
happens to be a relatively warm area as
opposed to the northern side of the island
where it's colder and Southold in its
uniqueness does not have some of the higher
cliff areas that some of the other areas that
we have where we live in Mattituck some of the
cliff areas are 170-180 feet in height. Okay,
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so we, too, on the bay side have this deer
population, we also have it on the north side,
but that's neither here nor there.
So I'm looking for some experience from -
- (inaudible) terminology from the Town
Attorney's office in reference to if the Board
is so inclined to grant this application that,
you know, that it's not infinitum, it's not
forever, okay, based upon what we intend to do
as a community and ask, you know, the Town
Board to do if they're so inclined to deal
with this deer population.
We have had this entire discussion in
toto when Louis Morbaken bought Robin's
Island, okay, and it was very interesting and
the testimony that we took from Joe Fenton who
is an attorney and lived in New Suffolk at the
time. I don't know if he
Suffolk. Pardon me?
MEMBER SIMON: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Louis Morbaken did to that
during that period of time
still lives in New
No. Okay and what
deer population
and conceivably he
has certainly thinned out the herd over the
years and that's exactly what he did and I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
this point, I'm just
not requesting that at
making that statement.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible), but Cedar Beach
would not --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He actually donated
most of the venison to the homeless
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Wonderful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But that's not here
nor there, I'm just telling you that I'm
looking for a statement from the Town
Attorney.
MRS. MOORE: That makes sense. In this
instance, remember you have a Privet hedge
that is blocking the entire fence, so they --
the Sokol family sees the fence. The outside
public doesn't. So the -- it may be
appropriate in certain circumstances, I think
here as Leslie pointed out that if we keep the
Privet as high as it is and hopefully thick as
it is and you don't see it. It's all behind
it. So unlike a farm that puts up the fence
and it's very visible, here it's kept very
residential. You really don't notice it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
one of the concerns that I have is the former
Arch Davis house, which evidently put that
particular fence up without a permit, okay and
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the prior owner?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. Coming
down on Bayview on the same side.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, another property. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A magnificent
compound and it looks horrible, there's no
question about it.
MRS. PISACARA: If you were to develop
standards, I would think there would be
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, actually the Building
Inspector and I talked about that if the Town
Board really wanted to legislate it that if
you came -- if you hid it, it was behind
existing vegetation and so on, there were, as
we said, standards it could be something that
could be easily dealt with until such time as
people don't feel that they have to create
compounds to protect their property and the
deer herd is thinned out however, you know,
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government decides to do it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There
foot high wooden and wire double door
the driveway.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
is an existing 8-
across
Could you address that?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's -- that is the
gated entrance to the property and it is, you
know, as a gate it needs to have a little more
structure to it. I didn't -- personally, I
saw it, that's how I went into the property.
It's actually, I think, attractive. It's
country looking. It is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm actually asking
about the height.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the height, yes, it
matches the same height as --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's post, but I don't
know that it's permitted.
MRS. MOORE: I assumed that the gate and
the fence was all part of the same application
because --
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
Should it be?
Pardon me?
The question
is should it
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
be not that it is.
MRS. MOORE: Oh,
should be --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE:
well I think that it
It's not
-- because if
(inaudible).
you make a
four-foot gate the deer will enter, you know,
will --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course. Of course,
but what I'm saying is it's as-built.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The rest is proposed.
MRS. MOORE: That is. No, actually it's
there.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying
the gate is --
MRS. MOORE: No, no. The fence is there,
too. Everything is as-built. It's already
there. You see it behind the -- we're not
changing the --
MEMBER SIMON: The whole thing is there
except for this --
MRS. MOORE: It's existing. This is -- I
think they didn't realize that it -- cause
typically you don't need building permits for
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
fences. They didn't realize that a deer fence
being higher that they would require Building
Department or Zoning Board. The Building
Department --
MEMBER SIMON: What brought them here
then?
MRS. MOORE: The fact that the fence
that's there doesn't conform to the zoning.
MEMBER SIMON: How did they, if you said
that it was there and it was preexisting and
they didn't know that it needed a permit, what
MRS. MOORE: Well, I --
MEMBER SIMON: -- caused the --
MRS. MOORE: The fencing in front of the
water, right? Yeah. What happened is they
put the deer fencing to block the waterway and
MEMBER SIMON: It was that one.
MRS. MOORE: -- it was there and that's
when the Trustees --
MEMBER SIMON: That triggered it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. I think it ended up as
a violation, but then it was removed. So they
want to have permission to do it seasonally.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Oh, they want to know if we get a variance
first, and then they'll consider it.
MEMBER HORNING: For the record, when was
the preexisting fence put in?
MRS. MOORE: Well, there was some -- why
-- because they would know the
don't you
history.
MRS. PISACARA: It was probably three
summers ago. The first summer --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to use
the mike, we can't hear you.
MRS. PISACARA: I really can't tell you
exactly when the inside fence went up. I know
the Privet's went -- first there was a little
four-foot fence, which did no good. Then they
put up the Privet and then they put the fence
behind it trying to seal off as much as they
could.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. PISACARA: That was the sequence. I
can't give you the exact date.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, there's a split rail
fence, but that's on the adjacent property
maybe that's what you were looking at?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no, no.
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MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER HORNING: So then to carry on with
that, so it's an undetermined date as to when
the preexisting fence was put in.
MRS. MOORE: You mean the existing fence.
MEMBER HORNING: The existing fence,
right, as-built.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, (inaudible talking
over others).
MEMBER HORNING: Yes, as-built.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, it was done, yes, as-
built. Okay, it was done incrementally first
four feet which complied with the Code, that
was not an issue. Then the Privet hedge,
which only works so well and thereafter the
fencing behind. So it's at least a year.
MRS. PISACARA: At the beginning of last
summer.
MEMBER HORNING: Alright, ma'am, my
further question then is because what I
noticed was the entire area was fenced in with
a fairly recent looking, recent looking built
fence, except for the area along the Pleasant
Inlet and the people down there who are here
right now explained to me that, in fact, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
applicant was wanting to put a so-called
temporary fencing there. I want to get into
some details --
MRS. MOORE: You
think.
MEMBER HORNING:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER HORNING:
actually met her, I
Yes, correct.
What is meant by
temporary and how long is that going to be
there temporarily, is it there seasonally?
The deer are there all the time. I went there
with my wife and she says, I don't see any
deer. As soon as we left there we saw swarms
of --
MRS. MOORE: Well, I -- I was going to
say.
MEMBER HORNING: -- deer all over the
place.
MRS. MOORE: Wait five minutes.
MEMBER HORNING: We're glad Fisher's
Island doesn't have these
I think temporarily isn't
there.
deer like this, but
going to cut it down
MRS. MOORE: Well, but it's mostly when
the children, in the summertime, when the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
children are there and the ticks arrive with
the deer. That's really their biggest
concern. So the seasonally would be in the
summertime.
MEMBER SIMON: How does that explain the
use of the temporary? It means what --
MRS. MOORE:
come down in --
MEMBER SIMON:
there?
MRS. MOORE:
It just means it's going to
-- when the kids aren't
No, the deer are always
going to be there, but (inaudible) food --
MEMBER SIMON: The children (inaudible)
only in the summer does that mean it's going
to be taken down in the winter?
MRS. PISACARA: It'll be
simple that we --
MEMBER SIMON: What does
when is it taken down?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
something very
temporary mean,
Well why don't you
ask them and get back to us on that?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I can -- yes.
MRS. PISACARA: (Inaudible) because
there'll be no one there. We're there right
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now because our house is being renovated and
we're house sitting, but it will be something
well back from the water and it will be very
modest. It will be, you know, the green posts
with the thing and it'll connect the house on
both sides to the fence.
MRS. MOORE: So the back yard will be
accessible to the deer.
MRS. PISACARA: That's right. That's the
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but they won't be able
to eat all the vegetation that's around the
side and front.
MRS. PISACARA: The concern with the
Trustees is that the deer and other animals
have free range.
definitely free
MRS. MOORE:
The deer down there are
range.
The problem with -- it makes
more sense to put it here, but it'll be up to
the Trustees because of the deer feces close,
you know, if you keep the deer off the
property, then you don't have the water being
degradated by the animal feces, but we'll
leave that up to the Trustees as far as where
exactly we can put the mesh fence along the
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back of the property.
MEMBER HORNING: Again, in looking at the
survey map or whatever, you have a preexisting
fence 8 feet high around the entire property
except on the curved area that abuts the inlet
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: -- and you're proposing
to put additional fencing inland of the inlet
based upon what you're granted by the Board of
Trustees as to a permitted distance from the
water.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER HORNING: Correct. That fencing
that is not yet there, is that going to be
permanent or is it temporary?
MRS. MOORE: It will be put up and then
taken down. I assume when they're here
visiting they're not going to have the fence -
when they're on the property and here for
vacation do they -- they're not leaving that
fence up?
MRS. PISACARA:
MRS. MOORE:
activity there to
No.
Because there's enough
keep the deer away,
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hopefully.
MEMBER HORNING: So the applicant doesn't
care then in September through May, let's say
the off-season, the applicant doesn't care
that the deer inhabit the entire premises
defoliating everything?
MRS. MOORE: No, I think -- no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It'll be up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It'll be up.
MRS. MOORE: That's when it'll be up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It'll be up then.
The temporary fence will be up then.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Seasonally in the
sumraer it'll come down more often, again
temporary, but there's just posts and mesh.
So it'll come down when there's activity on
the property. When they leave for the weekend
(inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: I thought was concern
was for the deer ticks with the children.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But they said that
they had a lot more activity there the deer
stay away.
MEMBER HORNING: Oh, got it.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you can usually keep
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the deer at bay.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay,
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
understood.
front yards,
the Trustees
of fence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, the way I've
been thinking of it as coming up and going
down it's more like rolling it open and
closed. You're not going to pull all of the
stakes out all the time and lap them back in
every weekend when you go away. You're going
to roll this thing open and closed more likely
than not. So --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: So it'll be temporarily
removed for a brief period of time in the
summer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but the point is
what's before us is permission to have --
MRS. MOORE: (Talking over others, and
not at mike, inaudible.)
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is before us is
permission to have -- what is before us is
permission for an 8-foot high fence in two
actually perimeter fencing, and
will have to approve the portion
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MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can approve the
height.
MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But they will have to
approve the placement of that setback.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else on the Board, Jenny, you want to speak?
Give me one minute. Is there anybody --
any other questions, any Board members any
questions for either Pat or this very nice --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) for this?
MS. GOULD: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. GOULD: Neighbor.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I didn't realize. Oh,
alright. Oh, Adler, okay.
MS. GOULD: I'm putting this record --
this letter in the record (inaudible) copy
(inaudible) from the next door neighbor, Fred
Adler. The letter is by his son, David Adler,
who is his power of attorney.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you tell us
your appearance, please?
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MS. GOULD: Jennifer Gould appearing for
David Adler who is agent for his father, Fred
Adler, by power of attorney.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. GOULD: You know, I'm going to maybe
try and paraphrase reading the letter that
David wrote to the Board, but just based on
what's gone on so far, I just want to state
two things. Starting with the survey; the
survey that was submitted with this
application is not a new or updated survey.
This survey is a 2006 survey. When I looked
at the file yesterday or the day before and it
was for a final survey when this house
underwent renovations in 2006, which I believe
is before the Sokols even bought it, the deed
that I pulled this morning said they bought in
November 2006. So all these fences and a lot
of these lines have been hand put on by
someone other than a surveyor and what you're
asking us to approve of is perhaps a 4-foot
fence, a Privet hedge and an 8-foot fence,
none of which are on the Sokol's property, at
least on Lakeside Drive South. Okay, the
Adlers live on Lakeside Drive past the Sokol's
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house. Perhaps -- I don't know anything about
the backside of this property, just the front
and along the side of the Adlers' property.
So I'm not really
Beach Association
map right-of-way,
sure, even if the Cedar
(inaudible) 50-foot filed
how their letter saying that
they don't mind this really holds any weight
legally. The Adlers have the right to pass
and repass these roads to get to their house.
The only way that the Sokols could call this
property their property is to go through a
legal abandonment and get a certificate of
abandonment and if you look at the statute
this happens, we see where paper streets have
been made smaller or even disappeared. But
for that to happen, the Adlers need to pass
and repass to get to their house and the
Adlers' house is past (inaudible).
I (inaudible) letter to see what their
problem is for the Adlers. How can you
approve a fence that's not on their property?
I just don't understand (inaudible) portion of
it is already preexisting none of it is inside
the boundary line. The boundary line is where
the -- you've got the big survey in your file,
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but there's a bound monument right here, okay.
That's where the monument is. This is all
hand drawn in and the 8-foot is outside in the
road as is the Privet, as is the 4-foot. Now,
along -- this is the Adler's house over here.
Down here the 8-foot fence is smack up against
their property line, their split rail with no
screen.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me see that
spot, please?
MS. GOULD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I found no markers
when I was there.
MS. GOULD: No, I'm just saying by this
old survey that's the (inaudible not at mike}.
This is all (inaudible). That's why, you
know, that's why you ask for a new survey when
you do these cause it's confusing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jenny, dear, we
can't even get a new survey for a lot merger.
Okay, so if you would like us to ask for a new
survey in this particular case --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but you sat before a hearing today that we
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didn't even have an application, a new survey,
we had a 1972 survey and a person objected to
it. So guess what we're going to do, if we
grant it, they're going to produce a new
survey.
MS. GOULD: I thought you -- I only
(inaudible not at mike) new surveys cause it's
so confusing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
The point in question here is, okay, is there
an adverse possession claim on this?
MS. GOULD: I -- you can't do that on a
- well on the filed map it would have to be up
for more than 10 years and you'd have to
litigate it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
So, secondly, let's establish the fact, number
one, when these people brought this property
to the majority of these devices were on the
property. I'm not talking about the 8-foot
fence. Okay.
MS. GOULD: I'm not sure if they were or
weren't. I think -- this is Adam Adler who
lives in his grandfather's house now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can he establish
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that these fences are new?
MS. GOULD: He's not for sure, but he
things the 4-foot is brand new. That's the
one
right on the road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It's actually replacing --
if I could clarify, the survey was done in '06
that was when they purchased this house. This
is the same survey. I actually represented
them on the purchase of the property and I
know we got a new survey. This was the new
survey. The split rail fence is -- it shows
on the property. What they did is they
replaced the split rail with the 4-foot deer
mesh fencing. So that was in the same
position. I don't want to interject more
unless you're ready for me to respond, but
aside from that issue --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not talking
about the -- the easiest way to deal with this
then very simply is to say that if we grant
something, we're granting it on the
applicant's property. We are not granting it
on any other property.
MRS. MOORE: Well, if I could clear that
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MS. GOULD: No, she's already admitted to
part, she said that's why she got the letter
from Cedar Beach cause she knows the Privet
hedge isn't on there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
know that.
MRS. MOORE:
the record here,
private roads.
Well, we didn't
Well, we, if I could put on
Cedar Beach community have
We see on the survey where the
actual road improvement exists. Cedar Beach
recently, the last five years or so, did some
repaving of the roads. The public water came
into Cedar Beach community, but the cormmunity
itself has no intention of expanding the road
beyond what is already there. In fact, it
cost them a lot of money as a community to
improve what's there and there were people in
the community who didn't even contribute. So
-- and I know that for a fact because we ended
up having to bring actions against those that
were part of the community that didn't want to
participate or contribute the small amount for
the road improvements. That being said, the
area where the hedges and where the fence is
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and so on, is all within the grassed area in
front of the property. Each property owner
maintains the area in front of their property
and in some -- most of the time deeds usually
say to the center of the road as far as what
rights you have. I don't think there's any
question the Adlers -- that the community has
passable streets. They are accessible. If
there was ever, I mean we have the Privet
hedge that is there, we're not moving it.
This is inside, the deer fencing is inside the
Privet hedge. It would --
MS. GOULD: But it's not on the property.
MRS. MOORE: -- and the Board, all that
we're asking for is the 8-foot difference. It
is -- we have permission from those that have
control over the roads to allow it to remain,
that is as far as what the Board has to be
concerned with. It is -- deer fencing is not
permanent as you said, someday, hopefully when
the deer population is controlled there's no
need to create an embank,
of your entire property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you know, protection
Now that we know
though, that the Association is saying that
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they have no objection to this the letter
should really be written to say that if it's
not on the applicant's property, but it is
either contiguous or adjacent to, they have no
objection to that either. Okay, if that were
the case, in that particular case, this Board
would have no jurisdiction over those
particular areas.
MRS. MOORE:
But it's (inaudible) I mean
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
everyday.
I deal with this
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sure. The Cedar
Beach Association reviewed this plan and also
since the fence is there they can see for
themselves what it looks like and whether or
not it's something that's objectionable to
them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But -- if --
MS. GOULD: But the point is you have no
-- he's saying they have no jurisdiction.
MEMBER SIMON: In fact, we could not
condition the approval of this fence on the
retention of that hedge because it's not on
the applicant's property.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If it is not.
MEMBER SIMON: We cannot impose a
condition on somebody else, that affects
somebody else's property.
MS. GOULD: That's why you need an
accurate survey. I mean our first point was
to be was to hold the hearing over to get an
accurate survey from a licensed surveyor, not
a hand -- something hand drawn by the
applicant or the applicant's attorney, showing
where the property line, where the 50-foot
right-of-way is.
MRS. MOORE: Well, you -- I think that
most times the Board looks at the degree of
the application and when you're dealing with
deer fencing and the investment of deer
fencing, getting a new survey is an expense
that if the Board is not inclined to approve
the 8 feet then why make the applicant spend
the money to have all the --
MS. GOULD: (Inaudible) issue
they don't have a right to ask for
for a fence that's not on their property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I actually
never really got to that, okay, to be honest
if you --
a variance
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with you I thought about it during the period
of time, alright, because of the private road
situation, okay, but I have to tell you that
this is -- there are very rarely times when we
need to seek counsel's opinion, okay. This
particular time we're going to need to do
that, okay. So if you give us a little while
to discuss that with counsel maybe we can come
back with a definitive judgment. If we can't,
we might just have to hold a hearing open and
MEMBER WEISMAN: You may recall at the
very beginning of this hearing I did ask that
question. I did indicate that it seemed to me
that the 4-foot fence and, in fact, the Privet
were not on the property. I looked at the
survey and it shows, and it does show very
clearly where the marker is and, you know,
where the monument is and, in fact, it shows a
line going all the way across from boundary to
boundary right near the driveway and the
house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only difference
with that is when you're dealing with public
roads, it would be clear cut. Okay, but these
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are private roads. Now, I really --
MRS. MOORE: And I also would point out,
but excuse me, one point I'd like to raise is
that the variance is just for the height.
What you can do is you're not condoning the
location, I'm not being asked for a variance
for the location of the fence, we're just
asking to keep the height at 8 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but Pat there is
no way that I'm comfortable and, again, we
would check with counsel, I'm not comfortable
granting a kind of ephemeral 8-foot height
variance without a survey that indicates its
location. We have to stamp these maps final.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me tell you
where the problem is, okay. The problem is I
don't know what the deed reads in reference to
what the Association allows and to what the
width of the Association of the roads allow
and so in other words, do you own to the
centerline of each one of those roads, each
adjoining neighbor and that's something I
think this Town Attorney's office has to
investigate.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And it's not just
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what rights the Association has, but usually
when you have these private roads the deeds to
each individual property grant the rights to
passage. So I understand that you perceived -
- but the point here is there's been a
question raised about where the hedge is or
where the fence is; is that correct?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: This Board will not
be able to grant you relief if the fence is
not on your property. They need that
clarification so it sounds to me, and please
correct me if I'm wrong, that they're asking
you for a survey that depicts exactly where
the fence is in relation to the property line.
MRS. MOORE: But is your opinion that if
I give you a survey, just going the one step
further, I give you a survey and it shows that
the fence is not within the perimeter of the
property, you're still -- you're saying that
they don't have the authority to grant that at
that point?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No. Who owns the
right-of-way?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, who owns the right-of-
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way.
I can give you a copy of their deed that
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. The person
who owns the right-of-way could come in and
ask for a variance, but if it's not on their
property, how can they ask for a variance?
MRS. MOORE: Well, the -- it's
interesting, the Cedar Beach community, I know
this, the property owners own to the halfway
point. The Cedar Beach Association has
maintenance of the road.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
you're understanding is,
I understand what
Pat, but the question
has been raised and now it has to be properly
reflected in the record. So just answer the
question and I do agree with Ms. Gould that
the hearing should be left open until the
Yup.
(Inaudible).
You can do what you
questions are answered.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
like.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I would
do, too.
MS. GOULD: (inaudible) they have a
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right-of-way and I, not knowing what that
right-of-way consisted of, cause it doesn't
say like some of these say a 50-foot right-of-
way I knew it wasn't cleared the 50-foot, I
went and I researched the filed map, which is
back that map 12/20/27 and sure enough it's a
50-foot right-of-way. So unless that right-
of-way is abandoned they have a right to pass
and repass the whole right-of-way not just the
10 feet that's cleared and further restricted.
I'd like to paraphrase and read part of my
client's concerns into the record and then
I'll be done.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then we'll
adjourn the hearing.
MS. GOULD: Okay, this is to the Board,
I'm going to paraphrase. The Sokol's recently
erected fence is at least 8-feet around their
property. It is unclear whether the variance
for 8-feet is for the already existing fences
that's depicted in the survey sent by their
lawyer or whether perhaps they are seeking
fences for new fences that they are proposing
to erect. Either way, I'm writing to express
strong concern. (Inaudible), paraphrasing.
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The Sokol's yard fronts onto Lakeside Drive.
I have enormous concerns over the fence that
they're already erected on the road by their
property. I'm very concerned about the fact
that the Sokol's front yard fence is 8-foot
high and that it is double the maximum height
allowed, but my biggest concern about this
fence is that I think the Sokol's installed it
on the roadway and that we rely on for access
to our home and property instead of on their
own property. Our property is at the dead end
of Lakeside Drive just past the Sokol's and it
is the only way to get in and out.
I (inaudible) fence considerably exceeds
the boundaries of their property on Lakeside
Drive and correspondingly that it encroaches
on that street diminishing its intended width
by 15 feet or 1/3. We've had a few
emergencies that required emergency vehicles
including fire trucks, police cars and
ambulances since the Sokols erected the fence.
These are dangerous situations and there is no
longer room in the roadway for vehicles to
pass one another due to encroachment of the
Sokol's fence and hedge into the road. As a
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result the vehicles are compelled to proceed
single file and then only in one direction at
a time. Even their (inaudible) which is
plenty ambiguous unabashedly shows that their
8-foot deer fence is located on the roadway
beyond their property line. So the Sokol's
survey is not accurate and is missing much
crucial information. A professional accurate
survey is needed to confirm the location of
all the fences, hedges and boundaries and the
roadway in question and the Sokols should be
required to provide one. If their fence
encroaches the road, it must go. As shown on
their survey, their fence consists of three
layers, including an 8-foot high metal deer
fence, a tall Privet hedge and a 4-foot deer
fence, which together measure 10-12 feet. I
believe most of all that these items are
installed on the road, it's a serious
encroachment.
A front yard fence that is located along
the road should be setback on the owner's own
property. The higher the fence is the further
it should be setback. The Sokols are seeking
to increase the allowed height of their front
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
fence by a tremendous amount, 100 percent
higher than the maximum allowed from 4 to 8
feet. They are seeking a substantial, not
small relief. 8-foot fences are completely
out of character with our neighborhood, an
unwelcome development and set a dangerous
precedence. An 8-foot fence in the front
yard, especially one like this, made of steel
wire mesh needs to be setback quite a bit, at
least 12 to 15 feet in order to avoid imposing
on its surroundings and should have a tall
Privet hedge in front of it to help preserve
the neighborhood.
The side yard fence, and this is the side
yard between the Adlers and the Sokols. The
Sokols have also installed an 8-foot side
fence along our common property line. It
exceeds the maximum height of 6.5 feet allowed
for by zoning in side yard fences and is
constructed of steel wire mesh and is
unsightly. The fence has been placed
virtually on top of the boundary line and does
not provide any type of hedge or plantings to
help conceal it from view or any space on
their property beyond the fence for such
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
planting. With so much wire mesh from this
it makes a depressive appearance like a jail
or concentration camp. This does also have
dangerous sharp wires jutting several inches
into our property that could cut a person who
brushes up against them. We are opposed to
granting a variance to allow 8-foot high side
fence to remain. It is much too tall and
overbearing, is entirely out of character with
the neighborhood and a very unwelcome event.
An ugly metal fencce like this should at
minimum be setback and screened out of view by
its owners, even if it is within the allowed
height.
In sum, we are opposed to granting this
variance to the Sokols for an 8-foot high
fence in the front yard of their property
located at 250 and 350 Lakeside Drive and in
the side yard. Sincerely, David Alder.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so what I am
requesting is we adjourn the hearing and we're
going to send both of you a letter indicating
what the opinion is going to be of the Town
Attorney regarding what our requests would be
going forward with this application and that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
my motion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to do this
to a later date, a specific date or --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we'll go with
December 2 -- 3rd.
MEMBER WEISMAN: December 3?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that'll give
us enough time to look at it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: By the Town Attorney.
MRS. MOORE: I won't do anything yet
because I'll wait to hear from you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, Jennifer will
(inaudible) both of you and to us we'll carry
on on December 3rd.
MRS. MOORE: Alright, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I make
that as a reolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING %6300 - Chester Ciaglo
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-15B, based on the Building Inspector's
April 14, 2009 amended Notice of Disapproval
concerning an application for a building
permit for construction of an accessory
structure or building
on this 55,500 square
construction: (1) is
for personal storage use
foot parcel, which new
setback less than the
code-required minimum 15 feet from a property
line, and (2) contains a building size greater
than the code limitation of 750 Square feet.
Location of Property: 36980 County Road 48
(a/k/a Middle Road, or North
CTM 69-4-8.2. Zone District:
Conservation."
Road), Southold;
Agricultural-
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good afternoon.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good afternoon.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record, sir, not that we
don't know you.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Hello, my name is Frank
Blangiardo, from the law offices of Blangiardo
and Blangiardo here in Cutchogue. I represent
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
Mr. Ciaglo here who is present this afternoon.
I would like to thank the Board for its time
and commend them on the hard work and
dedicated work that you're doing and I avoid
this type of work like the plague.
We do have a new survey and it's dated
March of 2009 for your review and we have a
Notice of Disapproval dated April 29th of 2008.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you tell
us what happened here, Frank?
MR. BLANGIARDO: What happened here is
Mr. Ciaglo is a long time, his whole life,
Southold Town resident and he purchased this
place which he did extend and purchased
another portion, another 35 feet or so from
his neighbor, Eugene Wesnofski two years ago.
So his lot has increased in size and he has
antique tractors is his hobby and he has a
dirt floor coop tent which I think is a fair
assessment, which is in the southeast corner
of his property and it is a little too close
to the property line, that's for sure and it's
an as-built application that we have here. So
I'll be upfront about that, it's an as-built
and we're looking for a variance for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
front and side -- back and side yard
setbacks,
and Eugene Wesnofski, I believe I gave a
consultation to him, he has since in the last
few years now, just recently, sold the
development rights round around this property
have been preserved in the last six months or
so. So it really is out in the middle of the
farm fields there in the agricultural
conservation zone and Mr. Wesnofski, a good
neighbor of Mr. Ciaglo, a good friend, as a
matter of fact he bought that little 35-foot
strip from Mr. Wesnofski a few years back, has
no objection -- no one has objected, to my
knowledge -- and he has several big
agricultural buildings with cement floors to
the west with some of them 4500 square feet,
another one 5000 square feet.
MEMBER HORNING: Who does?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Eugene Wesnofski and
those are agricultural operations.
MEMBER HORNING: Okay.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Mr. Ciaglo is currently
using this building. He maintains antique
tractors and restores them and it's really for
hobby purposes that he has this 1800 square
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
foot hoop tent, which is covered in like a
tarp-type material, which the moment you put
it up it starts to deteriorate from the
ultraviolet rays cause some portion of it
allows sunlight in. So it's that type of a
structure and we're asking for some relief
here so that we can get this as-built hoop
tent, which is kind of like a greenhouse, and
looking for some guidance from the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what's the
actual life of this? Do you have any idea of
how long this thing is going to last?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Chet,
the life of that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the mike? Just
up.
MR.
Junior.
that's Peconic,
what do you think
Why don't you use
state your name while you're
CIAGLO: My name
Address is 36980
11958.
is Chet Ciaglo,
County Road 48,
The average life of the fabric is five
years. The other type of structure is
galvanized tubing so to say, so the life
expectancy out of that is probably pretty
great I would assume since it is galvanized.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
It does sit on 6 by 6 forms with an RCA dirt
floor. You know, they do make replacement
canvasses for this type of -- this particular
type of structure. So I would assume that if
it does deteriorate we are able to put another
fabric over top of it, but you know as of the
galvanized hoop structure, I think that it
would be some time before that would
deteriorate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now this hasn't
gone through a snow situation or it has?
MR. CIAGLO: Yes, it has. It's also been
through when we had those couple of hurricane
storms, so to say, that we had, you know, when
we had some 65 mile an hour winds that came
off there. It's pretty stable.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any reason
why you chose this location as opposed to any
other location with greater setbacks or is --
what is the reasoning for putting it up
without a building permit?
MR. CIAGLO: At this time, this is
something that I've had in the past. I was
also located on the corner of Jacobs and Main
Bayview. We've had one there, of course, it
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was a little bit of a smaller structure, but
it was the same thing. Southold Town does not
have a Code for this particular type of
structure. Since I've had one for 15 years
now, I felt that, you know, we made it a
little bit larger, so to say, that I felt
that, you know, since there was -- we didn't
need to get a permit for this particular type
of structure. When I purchased the property
there was a smaller one there already and
along with a couple of other small buildings
that we had taken down and set up and stuff
like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You purchased this
property from Mr. (inaudible), didn't you?
MR. CIAGLO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think Charlie
died, didn't he?
MR. CIAGLO: Charlie did pass away, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. CIAGLO: So at that time (Inaudible}
was --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You bought it from
Bernadette?
MR. CIAGLO: Yeah. So I chose that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
particular type of -- I chose that spot, that
area in the back there because it's more or
less out of the way. It's in the middle of
the field. You know, I did barricade my
property, you know, with 18-20 foot tall
trees. It's not a structure that you can see
from the road. It's very neat and I keep it
maintained very nice. I am -- I'm not
surrounded by any residential people or
anything like that, you know, there's railroad
tracks right behind me. Briarcliff is a
vineyard that's on the other side of the
tracks. I mean it's basically not in
anybody's way. I've spoken to a lot of
people. It's not a nuisance to anybody, so to
say. So that's really why I picked that spot
in the back there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
Okay.
there are three
issues before us, actually, on this
application. One is that the as-built hoop
house structure is 2000 square feet in size.
The Code only permits 750-square-foot size on
this particular type of property. Okay, it is
subordinate to and accessory to a principle
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
dwelling. Okay, so that's an enormous size
difference. Now, I understand that you're
surrounded by agricultural properties that
have different kind of zoning for the size
structures that are permitted for Ag purposes.
You're indicating that the use here is for
hobby, for storage and repair of antique
tractors. When I was there twice, in fact, I
met you, Mr. Ciaglo, at one point, what was in
that hoop house was an enormous brand new
shiny truck. Being not terribly conversant
with makes and models of trucks,
tell you that it was the entire
hoop house and {inaudible) what
was and anyway not an antique.
to the business
MR. CIAGLO:
I can only
size of the
its purpose
It's related
that you're doing --
Well --
MR. BLANGIARDO: (Inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yeah, well that is a
tractor, ma'am.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, okay. That's
related to your use of your property as a
landscape contractor's yard.
MR. BLANGIARDO: No, that's not correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: No?
MR. BLANGIARDO: No, he has
(inaudible) building, he has his
in the
Pine Oaks.
You may know the name as a big employer here
in Southold Town and we are practically on a
depression. He does employ a lot of people in
Southold Town and he has in (inaudible)
another wonderful business here in Southold
and in their building, that's where Pine Oaks
Landscaping is located and as a residence in
Southold Town, I've surely used a lot of
landscapers and I don't know any landscapers
that are using a tractor trailer or an 18-
wheeler to landscape properties. I mean it's
not congruent with landscaping. So that's not
a landscaping use at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, well the Notice
of Disapproval, so we have to get this
straightened out, that's one thing. Let's get
that, correct me, on the record, it indicates
-- this is the notice from May 6, 2008; is
there an updated one?
April 14, 2009.
MR. BLANGIARDO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Wait a minute, yes.
April 14, correct.
And I'm looking to see
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
if that was removed. It would appear that the
landscape contractor's yard is removed from
this notice, this amended notice; is that
correct?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes. Once we showed the
Town that Mr. Ciaglo has a lease in the Seatow
building they --
MEMBER WEISMAN: They rewrote the --
MR. BLANGIARDO: And also there's been a
change with the Code Enforcement with Mr.
Forrestal retiring.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so this is off the
table. Let's then proceed. So the variance
is a setback at 3.2 feet from the property
line. The Code requires 15 feet and the size
of the accessory structure, which by Code
would be a maximum of 750 square feet and the
as-built comprises 2000 square feet. Okay, so
those are the two variances we're looking at?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. In fact, it says
here the accessory building is 1 foot from the
rear.
MR. BLANGIARDO: I think that's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it's noted at 1848
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
square feet, it's not 2000.
MR. BLANGIARDO: I think that's a fair
assessment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. BLANGIARDO: We're looking for some
guidance and also for the relief
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's got a dirt floor.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Dirt floor.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it can be moved.
MR. BLANGIARDO: It can be moved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: At some expense, but it
could be moved farther away from that property
line. That property line is the line that, I
believe, is next to the Town easement of the
development rights property; is that correct?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Oh, I haven't seen those
development rights. It just recently --
MR. CIAGLO: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's Mr. Wesnofski's
(inaudible) --
MR. CIAGLO: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and he had sold
the development rights to the Town.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct.
MR. CIAGLO: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
clear that it's
boundary.
MR. CIAGLO:
So I'm just getting
a foot away from that
Right, but that building was
also there before he had sold the development
rights.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's --
MR. BLANGIARDO: The survey says 3.2
feet, but I see that in the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Notice is --
MR. BLANGIARDO: -- is +/- 1 foot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, which is why I
mentioned it cause I'm a little confused about
why the survey says one or the other.
MR. BLANGIARDO: That's the plus part,
but it's not a great deal of space.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Looking at the side
yard setback to that, I had trouble reading
that. It looks like 28 feet, but no way
that's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's 2.8 feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So 2.8 and then it's
3-point -- graphically, it doesn't look
correct, but -- so the corner there at 3.2
feet from the rear property line, right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
It is confusing --
see that
3.2
corner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
and --
28.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It has to be 28 feet,
at one corner and 4.6 at the farthest
I apologize for
Yes. 4.6, 3.2, and 28
28 from here and here
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, right,
graphically that doesn't make a lot of sense.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't make a lot of
sense.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
clarification on that
perhaps and --
MR. BLANGIARDO:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
3.2
Could we get a little
from the surveyor
That has to be 2.8.
Okay, but look at the
distance and then look at the (inaudible).
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And then you
other what appears to be 2.8 or 28?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that has to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. BLANGIARDO: Oh, I agree with you.
Would you like to -- would you like me to get
a clarification from the surveyor?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Yeah, sure, why
not. That's fine. The reason why I say that
graphically speaking we look to the steel
building to the north, the one side of the
steel building is 30.1 feet, take that length
and transpose it to that corner, it's not even
near that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. CIAGLO: I think it's 2.8.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It might be 10 feet or
12 feet or something like that. Something
that's upside down or sideways. And does this
building have a concrete footing or anything
or anchorage or anything like that?
MR. BLANGIARDO:
MR. CIAGLO: It
are railroad ties.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
laid down or --
No.
sits on 6 by 6 CCA that
Oh, 6 by 6 that are
MR. CIAGLO:
ground and what
corkscrews.
That are laid down on the
it is it has the large 4-foot
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. CIAGLO: That corkscrew in the ground
and then you have -- and it has a (inaudible)
that you hook to the tent structure and you
just rachet it down.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That you rachet down
to that 6 by 6.
MR. CIAGLO: That's correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Tight and then it's --
okay, so if you had to move this --
MR. CIAGLO: Yes, it can be moved, but it
would be a little bit of a (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Of course.
MR. CIAGLO: It can be moved, yes.
MR. BLANGIARDO: If absolutely necessary
and we realize that these structures as they
exist and some of them are available in little
smaller, a lot smaller in BJ's and the like.
People buy trampolines and carports and put
them up and move them around overnight or
every 20 minutes, if they so feel the urge.
So we realize that it creates a problem for
Building Department and Zoning Board of
Appeals and we're looking for some guidance
here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. One of the big
things, too, is also the size of it.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes, part of the nature
of these types of structures as pole barns,
which I'm a little more familiar, I'm in the
process of doing one in Riverhead now. You
know, you build them in kind of like bays and
this type of structure, I don't think I'm
incorrect, that you just can add another
section or decrease it by a section.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Um-hmm.
MR. BLANGIARDO: So you could make this
several football fields long or shorten it up
to a shorter distance. It goes -- I don't
know what are the increments, Chet, that you
space those hoops apart?
CIAGLO: I believe they are 6 feet
MR.
apart.
MR. BLANGIARDO: 6 feet apart, so you can
make the buildings 60 feet or 54 feet or --
MR. CIAGLO: There is one structure --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to use the
mike.
MR. CIAGLO:
structure that's
Yeah. There is one
identical that just went up
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on Cox Lane, you know, that -- I just, they
had said that somebody had gotten a permit and
stuff like that for it and it has a concrete
floor in it and it has a bathroom and
everything else. I mean we're not using this
for, you know, we're just using this for like
I said I restore old trucks and I like doing
this type of stuff and there was, like I said,
when I bought the property, there was a
smaller one there, we just glorified it.
So you know, it's a little bit more than
what it is, but if you do drive around there
are structures in Southold Town and, like I
said, I feel that it is out of the way. It
isn't harming anybody. If you do drive by my
house, as I'm pretty sure every one of you
have, you know, driven on the North Road,
unless you're absolutely really looking, you
can't see it. You know, it's
hidden and it's in the middle
you know --
really way back
of nowhere and
MEMBER HORNING: Sir, I believe you had
stated a short time ago that, in fact, there's
no building Code for such a structure?
MR. CIAGLO: That is correct. That is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
correct. There was no Building Code for this
particular type of structure because I've had
a couple of other ones in Southold Town that
I've had no problems with (inaudible).
MEMBER HORNING: Let me ask you, sir, if
in fact you had put this in the middle of your
property, just for theoretical purpose, would
you have needed to have a building permit, to
your knowledge?
MR. CIAGLO: If I was to put it --
MEMBER HORNING: Anywhere on your
property that didn't involve a setback --
MR. CIAGLO: If I required -- if Southold
Town required a building permit?
MEMBER HORNING: Right, that's what I'm
asking.
MR. CIAGLO: Oh, yeah. Right, then I
would have followed the Codes and I would
follow everything what had to have been done
and did the proper planning and everything and
had the proper offsets and everything else. I
would have never stuffed it in the back corner
with having a 2.8 from the property line.
MEMBER HORNING: Again, let me ask the
question. If you had placed this on your
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property in some location that was compliant
with the setbacks so that you would not have
needed any relief from setbacks, would you
have needed a building permit?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes, there would be --
the Building Department would take the
position that, yes, you need a permit for that
structure; however, they wouldn't give you any
guidance as to how a hoop tent. They wouldn't
allow something 6 foot with galvanized pipe
with no foundation. It doesn't fit in that,
it's more of a movable type thing.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, what I think is
confusing some of us is what exactly is not
covered by the Code and you're talking about
the specs and some of us, at least I did, got
the impression that this was, you know, like
an accessory building under 100 square feet
you could put it anywhere you wanted to and
you didn't need a building permit and now I
realize that's not what you're saying.
MR. BLANGIARDO: These are part of the
problems that are created by this and as a
practitioner I see that.
MEMBER SIMON: But you admitted that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
building of that size that was going to be
located on your property wouldn't need a
building permit and did not fall under the
radar of the Town Code and so, therefore,
there are two issues. One is that the size
and another one is the placement and you're
saying is that even if it were not for the
matter of the placement they still would have
to go before the Building Department to get
approval as it happens for the particular size
because 1800 square feet is not simply
automatically allowable. So the idea that the
Code doesn't cover the details, regulations
regarding that kind of building is not
(inaudible) that that's how relevant that is,
but our problems don't depend on that
particular gap in the Code.
MR. BLANGIARDO: I agree with you there.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. BLANGIARDO: I agree with you it's
problematic and practicing for 25 years it's
analogous to a 12-foot trampoline with the
netting. I mean --
MEMBER SIMON: Except the size.
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MR. BLANGIARDO: Yeah, okay, so it's a
40-foot trampoline and my daughter has a 40-
foot trampoline. People get these
trampolines, which are larger than 100 square
feet and then you can make the argument that
those are structures. They are, those are.
MEMBER SIMON: They are, those are, but
they're not 1800 square foot trampolines.
MR. BLANGIARDO: I think there are.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Trampoline is not the
point --
MEMBER SIMON: I know--
MEMBER WEISMAN: This -- no, the Code
does address this because what you've placed
on your property is typically agricultural-
type accessory structure when, in fact, the
law says that you have a residential property
though you're surrounded by agriculture and
you're in the AC zone, you have a dwelling
there. Your principle building is a dwelling.
So all the other things that are on there are
accessory to your primary structure.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That means that it's
limited to 750 square feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct. We are here
for a variance from --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, whether you knew
that or not at the time, we now know it.
Okay, so let's just look now at what we have
to do.
So
one,
some
that
MR. BLANGIARDO: Correct. Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And move forward on it.
I'm encouraged by the fact that, number
you can without too much distress take
of these hoops off and reduce the size so
we could potentially consider --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- as you suggested
Absolutely.
Because it isn't
absolutely embedded in the ground, it can be
moved to a greater setback. So it might be
maybe what would be useful because it's
certainly not real clear exactly what these
dimensions are on this survey.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, number one, we
need to know exactly what that is, but you may
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alternate relief.
MR. BLANGIARDO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
also wish to consider, while you're talking to
the surveyor, submitting to us an amended
application which locates this smaller size
and greater setbacks on your property. You
know, does anybody on the Board want to
explore that?
MEMBER SIMON: I think that makes sense.
In other words instead of waiting for us to
suggest alternative relief --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Uh-huh.
MEMBER SIMON: -- maybe it could be, if
you resubmit it, an amended application which
has something which would be something like
what you would have hoped for in an
alternative relief, you'd have a better
chance. We're not going to redesign your
building for you, but so the alternative
relief only has a limited utility. You know,
you might put in something that is three-
quarters the size and only 10 feet further in
and then we probably would, if we grant it at
all, grant alternative relief for that, but I
think you have to do -- you have to come
partway now with an --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Absolutely.
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MEMBER SIMON: -- amended application or
we talk about --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Could I suggest that we
put it on for the December 3rd meeting and
we'll come back at that time with --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. I haven't
spoken on this one because I do -- I want to
clear the record on this. We had an
application with not a building quite this
large and probably more conforming in
reference to its area size in Orient.
Unfortunately, however, that application was
in the front yard area. Okay, it was forward
of the front of the house, the house was set
back a little bit. It was incumbent for that
particular applicant to house two antique cars
over a certain period of time. So what the
Board did do was and it was wintertime or
thereabouts coming at the time (inaudible)
think about this situation that we gave the
person some time to move the building, very
similar to this, it was a two-bay garage
basically in reference to this type of this
construction. What in effect we did not do, I
should say, is we really told him to remove
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
it, okay, because of its situation in the
front yard and I don't know if he ever put it
back in the rear yard, but that's the
situation.
In this particular case, this suggestion
is good okay, because you can lessen the
impact of it by shortening the building and
moving it to a more conforming location and
this would work.
MR. BLANGIARDO:
new survey just like
We also have the survey
that.
MR. CIAGLO: Let me just say something.
Since we used the term tractors as I restore
tractors, what we're referring to is the semi
trucks. This is what I do. I like building
semi trucks. I'm known for having fancy
trucks and everything else. I buy them, I
sell them and do stuff like that. If I
shorten this building, I'm not going to be
able to do what I particularly would like to
do. You know, polishing and doing stuff I
like to do as my hobby. I mean I've spent a
substantial amount of money with the Town
already trying to fight this, trying to fight
that, trying to do everything. You know, I
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
kind of don't want to have it shortened up and
say have a 15-foot, you know, or a 20-foot.
If that's the case, then I might as well take
it down and I'll just end up taking down the
other building and then I'll just go for a
large metal building like a Morton building,
if that's the case, but the thing that bothers
me is that people are putting these things up
all over Southold Town and they're being
allowed to do it and for instance John Fath
just put one up on Cox Lane. He's got the
same exact structure. He's got a bathroom in
it with a cement floor. How could you get a
permit for a temporary structure? There is no
permit. You need a permit for a concrete
floor. How does he get away with a concrete
floor that's in the middle of nowheres out
there and I mean that's in the middle of when
you go down the road --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
big the acreage is, okay.
We don't know how
Just remember that
you're really unique in reference to having
that residential aspect right smack in the
middle of an agricultural zone, but the
problem is you don't own any of that
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
agricultural zone,
right of property,
MR. CIAGLO:
be it both AG rights or
okay, conceivably.
Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's the
unique part about it. So what you need to do,
Chet, is find out what the size is, the
minimal size that you could deal with --
MR. CIAGLO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- for that one
specific unit that's going to go in there.
MR. CIAGLO: Right, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright and that's
what you need to do because as close to the
most conforming figure that we need is going
to make this Board happy and it's going to
take care of this (inaudible).
MR. CIAGLO: Okay. Yeah, I would like to
do whatever is possible so we can just, you
know --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I'll tell you for
the record the largest one we've granted so
far in your type of situation, for a different
purpose than what you want to use it, was 850
square feet. That's a 100 feet beyond what
the Code maximum permits. Right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So just as a
for you to think about.
guideline
MR. CIAGLO: Okay, so we're working with
an 1800 square foot, so that's --
MR. BLANGIARDO: So what we're going to
do is we're going to address the size issue
and the increments of reducing it and what Mr.
Ciaglo's needs are and then we're going to get
in touch with the surveyor and submit our
proposal to you on December 3.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And run over to the
Building Department and get the proper
setbacks you need.
MR. BLANGIARDO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Oh yes. Yeah.
So make sure that notice
reflects what you're really talking about.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In other words, when you
get the new survey showing a new location and
size, get a new updated Notice of Disapproval
so when you come back that notice reflects
what you're asking for.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Oh, we certainly will
ask for that, thank you.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to need
that before because we need to readvertise it
if it's a new Notice of Disapproval. You
understand?
MR. BLANGIARDO: Definitely need a new
Notice of Disapproval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, because if
it's conforming in certain areas --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Oh, I see.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Alright, good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then it's going to
be --
MR. BLANGIARDO: Hopefully it'll fit
within the side setback --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. BLANGIARDO: -- the side yard and the
back yard setback and we'll just be here for a
size variance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They'll give it to
you right away when you tell them about that.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes, sir.
MEMBER HORNING: May I suggest to the
applicant, too, that I mean it seems to me
with my limited understanding of building
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
permitting if, in fact, a building of this
size needs a permit it's greater than t00
square foot, and it does need a permit, then
in fact this issue of whether it's temporarily
there or not is a non-issue really. We're
going to consider it sort of permanently there
and it might have some parts that can be
temporarily moved around or whatever, but in
terms of a building that needs a building
permit, it's not a temporary structure, in my
opinion.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Yes. I understand. I
understand that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BLANGIARDO: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: See you on the third.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I offer that as a
resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
HEARING %6245, 6314 - E and C
Property Holding, Inc. and Educational &
Cultural Fund of the Joint Industry Board for
the Electrical Industry
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're opening this
hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want me to read
the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a new one.
MRS. MOORE: There's an additional.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's an additional
one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just add the
additional one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm just going to
read that one into the record since the others
are a carryover.
So this will be application, "#6314 for E
and C Property Holding Inc. and Educational
and Cultural Fund of the Joint Industry Board
for the Electrical Industry, the property is
on Duck Pond Road in Cutchogue.
"The applicants also request a Variance
concerning an application for a drainage
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
control permit based on the Building
Inspector's June 3, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
under section 236(13), for the reason that the
site plan shows a land area having a slope
greater than 20% for the construction of the
proposed meeting house building."
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. What I've
presented to you for today's hearing, what I
tried to do is to try to (inaudible) and just
giving a recapitulation of what has -- where
we are in the process, I started out with -- I
want to put on the record what we've done
since the date of the last hearing, what
actions have been taken. So I listed for you,
I start off by having since the last hearing
Jamie Richter, our Town Engineer, reviewed the
stormwater pollution prevention permit
(inaudible) and reported to the Planning Board
that the plan conforms with the Town's
stormwater code that's 236.
Secondly, the Town Engineer worked
closely with the applicants to complete a
stormwater collection system on the west side
of the property, which captures the water
runoff from Duck Pond Road and I have the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
engineer who designed the system here, if you
have any questions regarding that aspect of
it.
The Planning Board reviewed the proposed
site plan and they are satisfied with the site
plan. They are -- at this point, we've
completed the file as far as we can go with
the Planning Board.
before we can then
the Planning Board.
They await your decisions
complete the site plan with
Planning Board completed
the SEQRA review process and that, I believe,
has been forwarded to you. On August 5th, the
Suffolk County Planning Commission recommended
denial of the proposed variance of the
stormwater code and recommended relocation of
the building. They based that denial -- that
came to you as a Board. They based it on a
previous recommendation to the Planning Board
on our site plan referral and in the site plan
referral they recommended relocation of the
building, which the Planning Board and I site
further on the Planning Board is prepared to
override that recommendation. Suffolk County
Planning Commission has jurisdiction with
respect to site plan.
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The -- I'm just putting on the record,
not to distract us or to even go into the
technical aspects of this, just for the
purposes of preserving the record on the
issue, the variance side of the stormwater
code does not require referral to Suffolk
County Planning Commission and they did not
have jurisdiction over this issue and I'm just
putting on the record that objection. The
bottom line is that I hope we have unanimous
support from the Board on this application.
We get all the variances and approvals that
have been requested, therefore, we -- you
know, the referral or the issue of the Suffolk
County Planning Commission on the vote for an
override would be moot because we would have
the votes that would be necessary; however,
just as the lawyer, I just have to put that on
the record as far as, you know, protecting my
client's rights.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So that is where we are
since the last hearing. We have this
application with respect to the placement of
the building and in the second phase that I've
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
described I went through the testimony that we
had from last time and just essentially power
pointed all of the points that were raised at
the last hearing and finally we get to the
issue at hand, which is the variance for the
stormwater. I did that again just to bring
us all up to speed just to make sure that the
record is complete and if you have any
particular questions with respect to the other
variances and the Special Permit, I hope we
have everybody here to try to answer those
specific questions, but with respect to if you
want me to go straight head on into --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Head on. Head on.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Hold on, Pat, just
one question.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's obvious that
certain items that you discuss in the status
of actions have been submitted to the ZBA --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
whether the Town Engineer,
-- it is unclear
the first two
points, can you make sure that that's in our
file also?
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MRS. MOORE: Um --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's clear that
it's in the Planning Board file, but --
MRS. MOORE: I was told by Planning that
it was submitted to you. So I have -- all I
can tell you is that they tell me that it was
submitted. I can look in the file after the
hearing to verify it.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't have a copy
of the file. So it's --
MRS. MOORE: I know that they --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I just want to make
sure it's in the file.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, cause I actually when
I was trying to get this back on the Board's
calendar today --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to look.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Do you have it?
MRS. MOORE: I know you have the Planning
Board (inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) thoroughly
and I think we do have it.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: As long as we have
it, I'm fine, but we do need to have our
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records straight.
MRS. MOORE: No, that's fine. If you
don't, you should have it in your file.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me look. I thought
I saw it.
MRS. MOORE: I only got an email from
Planning. I did not have -- they tried to
email it to me, but it didn't come through
whatever format they sent the Town Engineer's
specific recommendation that they gave to
Planning, but Planning paraphrased what the
Town Engineer did and I know for a fact, cause
I saw the copy of the memo, they went from
Planning to the Zoning Board that was the
typical recommendations and referrals. So I
know that that is in your file.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have it. Jamie
Richter letter from --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: September 16.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to Marty (inaudible)
to the Planning Board.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We received it July 24,
2009. In any case, it's in compliance.
MRS. MOORE: Good. Okay.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's here.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're welcome. I knew
I saw it someplace. Why don't we take that
one first and then go back to the carryover?
MRS. MOORE: Do you want me to go forward
with the 236 discussion, are we ready?
MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you want to
proceed, Jerry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like you to
work with the new stuff first so we --
MRS. MOORE: So we make
Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
a record on that.
Alright.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Why don't -- I have
that in my writing and in the application that
I submitted I have the standards under 236-4,
which is a minimized soil erosion
sedimentation stormwater runoff and A through
E. Rather than read to you what has already
been submitted, why don't I have particular
questions addressed by the Engineer with
respect to how we're addressing these issues.
Would that make sense?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, possibly
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seeing where they may be placed on the site
plan.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. I think the first one
-- well, actually I think we talked about the
erosion with the two of you and the wall that
came up last time. Why don't you put --
MR. GIACALONE: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: You started --
[New speaker not at mike.]
MR. GIACALONE: Louis Giacalone, I'm the
architect (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
back.
MR. GIACALONE:
sorry. Is that okay?
How are you?
Welcome
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes. {Inaudible)
the original before, but that'll be better.
MR. GIACALONE: [Not at mike.]
{Inaudible) where the building is. This is
the (inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh sure.
MR. GIACALONE: -- familiar with it.
This is the Long Island Sound. (Inaudible)
this is where the meeting house building is.
(inaudible) and what Mrs. Moore was talking
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about on Duck Pond Road, there was additional
work done to drainage basin in the corner and
that work is done. In fact we were waiting
for some of the landscape (inaudible) to take
hold before it's actually (inaudible) to the
inlet across the street, but that work has
been done (inaudible) program on this plan.
This is a blow up of the building and the
problem that was raised is, how do we address
the runoff that's coming down the hill.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
concerned about.
MR. GIACALONE:
building in here. On another drawing
That is what we're
Right, once we put the
I'll
show you we have leeching pools over here and
over here. The primary reason for this
leeching pool is to take all the roof runoff
from the new building and direct it to the
leeching pools. So what we did in the back,
this line here is a wall, block wall, behind
the wall is a gravel swale that we're
constructing. It's roughly about 2 feet wide
and 2 feet deep and it's going to have a
perforated pipe at the bottom of the swale and
that's going to catch all the runoff coming
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down the hill and it's going to split it in
these pipes here and here and it's going to
connect down to these pools. These pools have
been sized to take the runoff here plus the
runoff from the roof and any local runoff,
they are at iow spots and that's where we're
going to catch all the water
for a 2-inch rainfall, which
a 1 in 10-year storm.
and it's designed
are approximately
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What about a freeze
and a thaw? Will that freeze that soil to the
point that it won't allow any protrusion into
that area?
MR. GIACALONE: Gravel?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The --
MR. GIACALONE: Yeah, I don't think it'll
freeze the gravel --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. GIACALONE: -- because it's designed
so no water stays in the gravel to freeze.
The water is taken away by the perforated
pipes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. GIACALONE: And the pipes are pitched
so that there'll be a natural gravity flow
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once the water goes through the gravel and
gets to the perforated pipe and that pipe is
pitched down naturally occurring, of course,
from the top of the hill to the bottom of the
hill where the leeching pools are. So there's
no standing water in the pipes, nor is there
excepted, nor would there be standing water in
the gravel trough, so to speak. So that's a
fairly standard way, at least from our point
of view, it's a fairly standard way for us
achieving, when we're building into a hill
concerned about erosion, for us to control the
water to a gravel trough and an under gravel
trough to take the water down to the bottom of
the hill and the leeching pools or wherever
else it goes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER HORNING: So the perforated pipe
that you mentioned, it's going to take the
drain water away that's underneath the gravel.
Are you covering it with a landscape fabric or
something so that the gravel will not actually
go into the holes of the pipe?
UNIDENTIFIED: Yes, yes. That's standard
detail, you wrap the pipe in the fabric --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Around the pipe.
MR. GIACALONE: Right. It's a filter
fabric wrapped around the pipe and then the
pipe has holes in it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. GIACALONE: -- so the filter fabric
doesn't allow the fine to get into the holes
251
MEMBER HORNING: That's what I
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And this is the system
that the Engineer, our Town Engineer,
reviewed?
MR. GIACALONE: That's correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What does the back of
the building look like? You have a block wall
and then you have a maybe 12-foot space there
or something, do you have a cross-section of
that area?
MR. GIACALONE: Yes. I'll show you the
elevation and then the cross-section.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
MR. GIACALONE: This is the building line
and then this is the retaining wall and in
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back of the retaining wall is the gravel
course.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. GIACALONE: Here's the rendering of
the front of the building. Here, this is the
side of the building so you can see that the
back, call it the back, the east side of the
building is built into the hill and then this
is the other side of the building where the
grade comes down to the front of the building
and this is the east side of the elevation.
This is all siding and then the retaining
wall, which is coming here, is at
approximately this point, but you won't see
the retaining wall, in fact it's not showing
here. You don't see the retaining wall
because it's obviously buried in the ground.
MEMBER HORNING: Right.
MR. GIACALONE: But you will see the
building above the retaining wall, which
represents here, it presents itself as about a
one-story building.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Would you say the, I
guess it would be the west side of the
retaining wall is exposed? Is it a walk
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around the building there in that area?
MR. GIACALONE: The retaining wall drops
down as the grade drops down.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
MR. GIACALONE: We tried to keep the
retaining wall at the level of the -- as it
goes down.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Lowest profile.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Keeping in mind, if I could
assist here, the hill is this way, okay, so it
is actually --
MR. GIACALONE: Yeah, it's buried.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's buried.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: How far is the
retaining wall away from the side of the
building?
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible) it varies. It
varies cause in this area here where we have
our air conditioning equipment --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED: -- it's much further away,
where here it's just a walkway for anybody
walking (inaudible) --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's what I was sort
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of getting at. That's what I was interested
in.
MR. GIACALONE: Yeah, cause this is the
walkway and the stair coming down from -- so
this is about 10, this is about 18 feet
roughly from {inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Um-hmm.
MEMBER HORNING: That's for access to the
back of the building.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, right. The
question, there is no adjustment on this from
the prior hearing. The purpose of this entire
procedure was to be able to construct it and
for the purposes of the Planning aspect of it
that are going to be, you know, over voted or
have voted so to speak. This building is in
the exact same position as
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
have been to begin with as
concerned, as an architect.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
it was before.
where it should
far as I'm
Yeah.
I'm glad to see
this, you know, kind of resolved in my mind
based upon what is very important kind of
erosion controls and so on.
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My question is the Notice of Disapproval
is still considering this a three-story
building, I would once again like the record
to reflect that what is being construed as a
third story is, in fact, circulation
fundamentally. It's not so much habitable
space as it is at grade access.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
dramatic slope --
MR. GIACALONE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. GIACALONE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay, because of the
One story above grade
Above grade.
-- access.
At that --
MRS. MOORE: I think when you design it
2-1/2 stories (inaudible) trying to design a
half-story --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- but whether or not it's a
half or a third story, the Building Department
(inaudible) coming here for these applications
MEMBER WEISMAN: Get the variance.
MRS. MOORE: [Inaudible, not at mike.]
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MEMBER WEISMAN: There's three levels,
that's the whole point.
MR. GIACALONE: There's a third level
that you can get to by stair and elevator, but
the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. GIACALONE: -- primary function of
that third level was this corridor to get to
the outside deck and so at that third level
there is and I realize I don't have the plans,
but at that third level there was two small
public foyers for the corridor, two small
{inaudible) the elevator comes up and I think
the dumb waiter comes up from the (inaudible)
kitchen below.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Egress.
MR. GIACALONE: So it's basically an
egress path to the deck and, as Mrs. Moore
said, when we were going through this with Mr.
Verity, he said, well, let's {inaudible
anyway but we're designating it as a 2-1/2
story building is just a question he wanted
the Board, Planning Board, to be aware of that
level. As I said, from the back it's not a
three-story building, it's a one-story
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building. So it doesn't present as a three-
story building anywhere and that walkway,
which is depicted here, if I were to shade it
in is under the eaves of the roof. So, in
effect, what we did is we took the attic space
and carved that corridor out of it so that you
could get up to what would have been an attic
and then out onto the deck. So it's not like
we built a third floor and then built a roof
on top of it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, now I just
wanted to make sure that the new members
understood what these variances are for and
what the technicalities were.
Okay, I don't have any additional
questions regarding the application
particularly. I mean we've heard a lot of
testimony previously on the other variances
and this has now to do with this drainage
plan, which has been deemed to be conforming
and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This drainage plan
is a passive drainage plan; is that correct?
MR. GIACALONE: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which is just like
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a swale, like a big swale?
MR. GIACALONE: That's exactly what it
is. Typically, you build a swale to take
water and direct it in certain directions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GIACALONE: On a high hill, a iow
hill, even on a flat terrain you still want to
direct the water so that, you'll see on civil
engineering drawings of a relatively flat site
there are still those bumps in the grading
(inaudible) but, you know, there's still the
bumps in the grading where water is actually
directed into the swale and then out to
wherever you want it to go. So it's a little
more controlled, but in essence, yes, it's a
passive water directional.
MEMBER HORNING: We have a letter here
from Suffolk County Executive dated August 5,
2009 and I'm going to ask if my reading of it
is correct where they state the disapproval of
the variance for the proposed facility to be
built on slopes equal to or greater than 20
percent for the following reasons and they
give the -- it's not on conformance with
condition number one of the approval of the
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259
site plan for the property that the Planning
Commission adopted at their meeting August 5,
2009.
Just briefly explain that.
MRS. MOORE: What does that mean?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Suffolk County Planning
Commission, I'll try to explain complicated
concepts simply. Suffolk County Planning
Commission has to rule over applications that
are particular types of applications.
Generally, this (inaudible) that require a
referral to them. Those referrals are based
on a couple of factors: Is there a county
road within 500 feet; is there a county park
land; is there -- they have jurisdiction over
these. I'm, quite frankly, not sure what the
County owns that would have had a referral
process. My thought is (inaudible) is an Ag
district because among the listed items one is
an Ag district.
So the site plan got referred -- I'm
trying to answer your question. The site plan
from the Planning Board got referred to
Suffolk County Planning Commission. Suffolk
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County Planning Commission, they suspect,
didn't really understand the application this
is what I hear at Planning Board meetings,
that they didn't really quite understand the
application and I guess they ultimately came
back with a recommendation to deny the
location on the site plan that was shown.
MEMBER HORNING: This is the location
that we're talking about?
MRS. MOORE: This is the same location.
MEMBER HORNING: The same location.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly. So on the site
plan this is the location that was shown and
the Planning Board in their back to you in
their recommendation said we understand this
is what they did at the Suffolk County
Planning Commission, that they said we have a
problem -- how did they put it? I think for
Planning they said, we approve of the project,
but not the location, I'm paraphrasing what
they said.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, Pat this letter
here says that --
MRS. MOORE: No, it's condition number
one that was their condition. They approved
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261
it subject to certain conditions --
MEMBER HORNING: This is referring to as-
built decks and they called for a local
determination for the as-built decks.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER HORNING: Then they stated
disapproval for the variance because of the
slope.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was the
purpose of the --
MRS. MOORE: That was the reason it got
referred to them was the site plan and the
site plan showed it in the sloped area.
MEMBER HORNING: So what was the specific
reason why Suffolk County ended up with the
site plan, can you tell us that?
MRS. MOORE: Why they got it?
MEMBER HORNING: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, because under general
municipal law 239M is the section of the Town
law that is -- that requires jurisdictionally
the Town must refer matters that are within
the jurisdiction of the County and the
jurisdiction is like A through C, you know, if
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
you are --
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER SIMON:
particular case?
MRS. MOORE: I
don't know.
What was the reason?
The reason in this
don't -- I quite frankly
MEMBER HORNING: You don't know.
MRS. MOORE: -- quite how these
(inaudible) that --
MEMBER HORNING: It may be adjoining
property owner.
MRS. MOORE: -- they have jurisdiction
- well that needed the referral. When I
looked at the law the only thing I can fathom
is that if you're in an Ag district or
adjacent within 500 feet of the Ag district
and the County Ag district --
MEMBER SIMON: Can you find out
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's both waterway
and Ag.
MRS. MOORE: The waterway would be a
county water, county controlled waterway and
it's not.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Can I just say
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something? On the survey here --
MRS. MOORE: That would be considered
within their jurisdiction? That's not what
the law says, but okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On the survey here it
says adjoining property listed as "Zuhowski
family and Suffolk County."
MRS. MOORE: I thought it was because of
County development rights, but that wasn't --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So that wasn't it.
Okay.
MRS. MOORE: That's not the reason,
according to the law. I mean went looking in
the law why it went. It's not a bad thing to
refer because if you don't refer it and it was
required, it undermines any decision because
of jurisdiction.
MEMBER HORNING:
get back to us, was
Can you tell us, just
it required and what was
the reason,
if it was required.
MEMBER SIMON: Find that out from them.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, that's all I'm
asking for.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
can find out.
And get a letter to us so
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MRS. MOORE: Well, I don't know -- You're
different. Your referral is different from
the Planning Board's referral.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
Theirs is mandatory.
MRS. MOORE: Theirs is mandatory. Yours
is actually they say area variances are exempt
from the referral requirement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But they still
refer it and most of them all come back local
determination.
MRS. MOORE: I think they do it as a rule
of thumb you do it, so you won't have to
decide whether or not you have to do it and
most of the time area variances they have
local determination, they don't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, when we ask
them a technical legal question -- hold on a
sec, maybe Jennifer can answer this also.
This notice is a request for a drainage
control permit, okay, now I've never written a
drainage control permit before. Is this an
area variance? I know the other ones are, but
what are the criteria --
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ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Our Code directs
under Town law 267 so it directs an applicant
for one of these permits to do an area
variance analysis and a direction to do so as
well.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it is an area
variance?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause this here is
section 236{13)B.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No --
MRS. MOORE: 236 --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- 236-15 --
MRS. MOORE: -- would be the variance to
use the area variance (inaudible)
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Criteria.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- of 267, I think it is.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: 236-15.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I have to be
looking at?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yup. It directs
you directly to Town law 267-A.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: George, when we
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took testimony, to answer your question --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Pat, I think the
most important thing about general municipal
law referral is that it can be -- or decision
or disapproval, can be overridden by a super
majority vote of the Board.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Originally,
(inaudible) I really don't want to get bogged
down in the technical whether it was -- was it
required or wasn't it required. It would only
be relevant if we do have
vote in favor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a super majority
Right.
MRS. MOORE: Then it might become an
issue because was it required or wasn't it
required would determine whether a 3 to 2
would be sufficient to grant us an approval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would be different,
right.
MRS.
persuade
MOORE: I'm hoping that we can
all of you that unanimously this
makes sense and that it'll be another day not
this one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
explain to George that we went as far as this,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
okay, and it was the steep slope issue that we
held this hearing in abeyance so that all of
this work could be done and they chose to go
with the swale aspect, as opposed to moving
the building, and keeping it in that direction
and it appears the Planning Board is going to
override.
MRS.
override.
MOORE: They clearly do have to
Their jurisdiction is site plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So I have no doubt that the
Planning Board decision may be done and it
does require a super majority.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we did hear
that they were going to override.
MEMBER HORNING: So the slope and the
fact that the building is built into the slope
to some extent affect this discussion previous
discussion of how many levels there are on the
building, whether there are 2-1/2 or 3 or
what?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it did not.
What it did do was --
MRS. MOORE: Well, the building is
designed as the 2-1/2 stories and it's up to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
you whether you override the Building
Inspector's interpretation that it's 3 stories
and needs a variance or you just granted a
variance as the third story.
MEMBER HORNING: Well, Ms. Moore, I mean
only because I -- when I was previously on the
Zoning Board it was a hot potato issue and --
one of them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Primarily
residential, though.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, and there was,
you know, some of these places where third
levels had sprinkler systems or whatever --
MRS. MOORE: Oh yes.
MEMBER HORNING: -- and of course you go
in some detail of talking about having a
sprinkler fire suppression system on this so-
called third level, but you're not calling it
a third level. You're not calling it a third
floor, you're calling it a deck.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER HORNING: But the deck has
bathrooms. Are bathrooms habitable space?
MRS. MOORE: I don't know.
MEMBER HORNING: Technically.
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the
actually.
MRS. MOORE:
space?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think that was
trigger for the Building Department,
Are the bathrooms habitable
MR. GIACALONE: Yeah, in a residential
environment it's not considered habitable
space because you're allowed to have rooms
without windows that are considered non-
habitable space. So technically it's not
considered to be habitable space. In a
commercial environment, I'm not sure that I
ever had that question before so I can't
answer it, but if you -- if it were a third
floor and it had office space and a desk area,
reception and all the rest of that, then the
bathroom would be part of the habitable space,
because in commercial projects we define an
area of the tenant, so to speak, as the entire
area that you can walk, it's called carpet
area, that you can walk on and a toilet would
be part of that. So if you rent a space that
has 5 rooms at 100 square feet each and a
toilet (inaudible) at 100 square feet each,
you're renting 600 square feet.
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So, because that was not the intent here,
the intent was to provide toilets as a
convenience for people that are on the deck so
that they don't have to go down the stairs to
the larger toilets down below and if that
became a condition, I could take the toilets
out they were more a convenience than anything
else.
MEMBER HORNING: I saw that. As I read
the file, I -- this question came to my mind,
without attending the previous hearing, well,
are these people skirting around the issue
here of whether it's a third floor, they're
talking what's a floor and what's a deck and
they're calling the floor the deck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There was never an
issue that this building was not sprinkled.
MEMBER HORNING: Right, but --
MRS. MOORE: Would it be helpful to you
to have us walk you through the building
briefly? I mean, we can either do it on the
record or after the hearing.
MEMBER HORNING: I'll
colleagues when we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
talk to my
Maybe at the end of
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 1, 2009
the hearing, if George wants to see anything,
he's certainly welcome to do it.
MRS. MOORE: I mean it's all been put on
the record, but it's, you know, one thing
reading it versus another thing with a drawing
and someone walking you through. I think it
would be helpful to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, why don't we
do it after the hearing is closed.
MEMBER HORNING: I mean the height, the
overall height is not an issue.
MRS. MOORE: No. (Inaudible).
MR. GIACALONE:
under --
MEMBER HORNING:
MR. GIACALONE:
That's why we built it
Right.
-- the attic. When the
deck became -- not an afterthought cause
architects don't do afterthoughts (inaudible).
When the deck became a suggestion when we had
all that space up there and we said let's
build a deck and everybody said well, how do
you get up there? So we'll bring the stair
up, we'll bring the elevator up and then we
need a small corridor to get out to the deck
and so, you know, one thing led to another,
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but the important part for us was to retain
the height of the building so that when the
building was designed before the deck showed
up and before the third floor showed up, it
would have been exactly that building with
this roof, but we realized we could, within
that roof attic space, put the corridor and
the stair {inaudible) and the elevator getting
up there. So we never saw it as a floor and
that's why we were surprised when Mr. Verity
had suggested we come before the Board for a
variance. For an area variance --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. GIACALONE:
three story building,
deck and it's access
meant to be a floor.
MEMBER HORNING:
Right.
-- based on this being a
but you're right it's a
out to a deck; it's not
Alright, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason why I
said that in reference to this because it
costs us x-amount of time for this
transcription situation. So if you don't mind
spending a couple of minutes
would be wonderful.
For everybody's purpose,
with George, that
this gentleman
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was a member of this Board for six years and
the Board in its wisdom, the Town Board in its
wisdom has brought Mr. Horning back and we're
very elated about that. He's from the great
state of Fishers Island.
MR. GIACALONE: Well, I'm impressed by
that cause you came by boat or I would assume
you came by boat.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
The bridge to
CHAIRMAN
cost.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
special meetings would be --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER HORNING:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the people of Fishers
(inaudible).
Here comes the bridge.
somewhere,
GOEHRINGER: Imagine what that'd
Oh, please.
Teleconferencing
for
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything
else that anybody would like to speak about
regarding this?
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing and we thank you
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A lot cheaper.
-- helpful.
And it would also help
Island participate
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very much and we thank you for accommodating
our Fishers Island member and I offer that as
a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
{OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature ~_~~.. /~![k~/~~
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
October 15, 2009
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