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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
August 27, 2009
9:49 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
ORIGINAL
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27,
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2009
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Anthony and Lisa Sannino #6194 3-50
Norman and April Wenk #6304 51-67
Christine Franke #6305 68-78
Mary Garbriel 96310 79-83
John and Barbara Severini #6309 84-101
Michael Mongello and Joseph Finora #6307 102-111
William R. and Marlen Bloethe #6303 112-127
Kelly Myers #6306 and 6330 128-139
BABS Corp. %6284 140-140
Barbara Shinn #6308 141-213
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6194 - Anthony and Lisa Sannino
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request Special Exception under Zoning
Code Section 280-13B(14). The Applicants are
the owners requesting authorization to
establish an Accessory Bed and Breakfast,
accessory and incidental to their residential
occupancy in this single-family dwelling, with
one bedroom for lodging and serving of
breakfast to the B & B casual, transient
roomers. Location of Property: 7490 Alvahs
Lane, Cutchogue; CTM 101-1-14.4."
Okay, let's see.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would one of you like to
come to the microphone or both of you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just need
you to state your name for the r~cord.
MR. SANNINO: Anthony Sannino.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. SANNINO: Lisa Sannino.
BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing your voices
very well on the tape recording.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So when you speak
just try to speak to the mike.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, closer,
mike.
MR. SANNINO: We did put information
together, if we can hand out a packet to the
members.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. SANNINO: And as well we have one of
the return receipt letters with a second
attempt.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that letter
goes to the clerk.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, can you say which
property owner that is returned for?
MS. SANNINO: Across the street.
BOARD ASST.: Across the street.
you very much.
closer to the
Thank
MS. SANNINO: The farm there.
MR. SANNINO: We did get a verbal okay
from Eric Hell (sic) who's also our neighbor,
but wasn't able to attend today.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
Let's begin this way. We have a note
from the Planning Board, which I'm sure you've
seen. Have you gotten a copy of the coraments?
MR. SANNINO: Yeah, we were asked to pick
that up on Tuesday afternoon and we did and we
also did a written response to that as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I see in your
package you have a copy of the covenants and
restrictions that they requested.
MS. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's great. We can
all then, you know, the Board can review them
to see whatever -- anything that might pertain
to the siting of a bed and breakfast there.
MR. SANNINO: There's nothing (inaudible)
in the covenant, no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't appear on a
quick scan that there's any significant issue
with regard to that permitted use, but we'll
take a close look. Let's see what else. What
else do you have in the package here?
How about addressing -- did you do
anything about the park -- indication of the
parking?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. SANNINO: Yes, we included a survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Entrance and exits and
stuff.
MR. SANNINO: Yes, we included a survey
showing the three required parking spaces.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ah, here it is. Here we
are, okay. Right by your garage, your
attached garage.
MS. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Planning Board quite
logically is concerned, as are we, with
entrances and exits to any kind of a public
accommodation. Since you only have one guest
room being proposed the increase of vehicular
traffic would be negligible really. So I
don't see that as a particular concern that we
have to address.
So have you been operating this? We also
see that there's been a citation by Code
Enforcement for the operation without a permit
of a B & B. Have you been operating this yet?
MR. SANNINO: No, we haven't and we were
not given any such letter and we noted that
also. It says Code Enforcement sent us a
letter and we did not receive it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, you didn't receive
MR. SANNINO: Did not.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a copy,
like to see it.
MS. SANNINO: Yeah.
MR. SANNINO: We'd love to see it and we
if you' d
did request a copy of any information. We
were given the memorandum on Tuesday afternoon
and in reading it quickly we did ask for any
information or any letters pertaining to this
and nothing was presented.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have a letter
within our file and certainly we can make that
available to you through the office later on;
is that right? Yeah. You really ought to at
least have a look at that.
BOARD ASST.: Which letter is that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is a letter from
Code Enforcement from Damon Morales indicating
that they are in violation of --
BOARD ASST.: The Planning Board -- I
mean Damon was going to serve it on him.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So maybe that hasn't
happened yet.
BOARD ASST.: It's not in the file as of
this moment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I thought I saw it.
BOARD ASST.: Oh, you got something from
Damon, but it's not in the file until he
serves it (inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see.
MR. SANNINO: What is the normal
procedure for Code Enforcement? Cause I was
trying to look that up on the website and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't honestly
know, to be honest with you. It depends upon
the individual.
MR. SANNINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is -- this is
not a ticket so to speak. Okay, it would
enable you to go -- pardon me.
MEMBER SIMON: It's a letter.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's a letter.
It's a cease and desist letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, .it's not an
appearance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No.
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me, we were told
yesterday by Mr. Morales that he's attempted
delivery and you haven't signed the green card
at the post office.
MS. SANNINO: Oh, interesting.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) mail maybe, I'm
not sure.
MS. SANNINO: We got the mail, yeah.
BOARD ASST.: That's the message we got.
MR. SANNINO: We get the mail at home.
MS. SANNINO: Yeah, at home.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, you might want to see
Mr. Morales in the Building Department. He
has an office to the left
Department.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We
for a short period of time so
in the Building
can adjourn this
you may go over
and get the letter, if you want to at the end
of this hearing, just for the purposes of
reviewing that and then reconvene it at like
11 or 11:30 or whatever.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you'd like, but I
think we can proceed with just addressing the
issues that are before us.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The application is for a
Special Exception permit and as you are aware
the Code lists various criteria that need to
be followed in order to -- we don't have a lot
of flexibility about the Special Exception
permit like we do with variances and assuming
that all of those criteria are met, we did do
a site inspection I believe all of us went at
one point and you welcomed us into your
beautiful home and we saw the situation. As
far as I can see, the criteria as spelled out
seem to all be accoramodated including a pull-
down ladder on the second floor for safety.
There is -- the Planning Board's comments
as well as Code Enforcement also keep making
reference to a winery as a permitted use in an
AC zone, but you need to have 10 acres and you
have 5 acres; however, that is not what is
before us now I want to make it clear for the
record that what we are doing is separating
those two things that when you are ready to
make application for that particular purpose,
we will review that at another time. So I
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
think our comments and questions and your
comments should be directed just to the B &
So your statement is that you have not
been operating it.
operating it.
MS. SANNINO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Bo
You've set it up to begin
Right.
You've set up a website
to begin (inaudible) people.
MS. SANNINO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
I really don't
have any questions. I just wanted the record
to explain what it is that you're requiring or
desiring to do and maybe the rest of the Board
might have some comments or questions.
They've seen the property.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no questions.
I've seen the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a little
out of the ordinary, but I'm going to ask you
both to raise your right hands.
Do you solemnly swear the information
you're about to give us is the truth to the
best of your knowledge?
MS. SANNINO: I do.
MR. SANNINO: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In my discussions
with you on Saturday you indicated to me that
you are not operating a winery in this
location; is that correct?
MS. SANNINO: Right.
MR. SANNINO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you also
mentioned that whatever you were doing you
were doing it at another location that you
were either renting or using whatever the case
may be.
MR. SANNINO: If I could elaborate on
that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. SANNINO: We were quickly informed by
the Building Department that such a use would
not be acceptable and we did start a website
and we did have intention early on -- we're
only living here for two years now since '07.
I think our application for the B & B and the
proposed barn for such a use and whatever had
taken place at the same time. Being informed
quickly, we made moves to find a location and
I assured the Building Department that before
we did anything we'd assure the Board and
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
anyone that we wouldn't be operating or doing
anything like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So from a business
standpoint, you being a contractor, you're not
necessarily receiving any lumber to your site
via big trucks or anything of this nature?
MR. SANNINO: Yeah, typically our
construction materials go to the jobsite.
BOARD ASST.: I didn't get that. It goes
to where?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The jobsite.
BOARD ASST.: What's the jobsite?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Whatever jobsite
he's working on.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the majority of
the vehicular traffic is limited to, at this
particular time, to your own personal vehicles
or any guests that you may have at the house
itself?
MR. SANNINO: Correct.
MS. SANNINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, in the future
it will only be limited to the same situation,
I'm putting words in your mouth, I'm just
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
asking, it will only be used for whomever you
had that will utilize this Special permit if
the Board is so inclined to grant it and any
or relatives that would come and visit
friends
you?
MR. SANNINO: Correct.
MS. SANNINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're just
trying to limit that to that whole issue of
any business use on the property and so on and
so forth.
MR. SANNINO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we deal with
this or I deal with this usually on the basis
of, you know, farm related situations that
where there -- I mean you have a very nice
vineyard there and we're just trying to limit
it.
MR. SANNINO: Jerry, we also do a very
big harvest fest at our house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. SANNINO: Last year all of our family
members come out. At any given moment, for
instance this past weekend, Lisa's cousin from
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Pennsylvania was out in Orient just stopped
by. I mean it's continuous.
MS. SANNINO:
party.
MR. SANNINO:
My daughter's birthday
My daughter's birthday
party was yesterday.
MS. SANNINO: There were 20 kids running
around. Yeah, we're a big family. Yeah,
private and we have a lot of them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
MS. SANNINO: We're just so happy that we
live out here and it's a beautiful place and
we welcome everyone to come and enjoy it.
MR. SANNINO: We've been actually
harvesting on this property since '05 prior to
even starting construction. It was our first
harvest there and I believe we probably had
over 100 people there harvesting grapes on
that particular harvest.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Just
Okay, good.
to add to the
clarification, from the inspection of the
place, none of these questions, which were
mentioned in Code Enforcement letter, were at
all evident to me at the time. I never
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
thought of having any questions. What I saw
is what is described in the application and
nothing more. Yes, the application doesn't
mention vineyards, but there's nothing wrong
with vineyards as long as there's no evidence
that a winery is being constructed. So we can
see it was easy enough to focus on what the
application is about without putting on
blinders.
MS. SANNINO: Right, um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just, while
you're here, let's get this entered into the
record. We're looking at -- I'm now reviewing
the criteria for Special Exception and I just
want the record to reflect that I believe you
are meeting those requirements. The applicant
plans to comply with on-site parking
requirements, with one guest room we're
The other two are
Right.
talking about one space.
for your household.
MS. SANNINO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You comply with the
requirements of a dwelling unit, yes. The
accessory B & B as applied for is reasonable
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
in relation to the district in which it's
located adjacent use districts and nearby and
adjacent residential uses. You have a series
of letters from your neighbors indicating
support. Certainly there would be no
disruption to the safety, health, welfare,
comfort, convenience of either the Town or
existing adjacent use districts. There are
other criteria.
So at least this way we're talking about
the things that are involved in granting the
permit and I don't see any problem with your
meeting any and all of those criteria. I'd
just take a look at the covenants and
restrictions to confirm that the Planning
Board (inaudible) in any way put any sort of
constraint on the operation of the B & B and I
think that's it.
MS. SANNINO: Thank you. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good luck with your
business. It's a beautiful spot.
MS. SANNINO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you sit down
we have just one request.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
BOARD ASST.: I'm just checking over the
exhibits to be sure we have everything. On
the covenant there seems to be a page or two
missing. You only have page 1 and page 2 is
overlapped from some other pages. Some
paragraphs on the left of the page are
missing.
MS. SANNINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you check
that for us and give it to us if there is any
additional information?
BOARD ASST.: Give us a new set of the
covenant with all pages by tomorrow.
MS. SANNINO: Yes
BOARD ASST.: Tomorrow is fine. Thank
yOU.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright and the
question of the Board is is there any reason
to deal with Mr. Morales' statements
(inaudible) receiving them? Do we want them
in the record; do we not want them in the
record?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't really see them
as totally pertinent to our application
whatever happens with Code Enforcement happens
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
between Code Enforcement and them. They've
testified under oath that they are not
operating, they're prepared to operate, but
are not operating it and even if they were,
frankly, the attempt here is to legalize the
operation. So I,
we need any more
up to them to --
personally, don't feel that
information. That's really
MEMBER SIMON: I would agree.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I would agree with
that, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Does that mean that the
letter from Enforcement will not be entered
into the record?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, if we close
the hearing, definitely.
BOARD ASST.: That is pending, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we can close the
hearing.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we're not going to
add that to the file.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. SANNINO: Okay.
MS. SANNINO: Okay, thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, don't
leave because we have other discussions here
probably.
MS. SANNINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody else
like to speak for or against this application?
Sir, would you come up and use the mike
and state your name for the record, please?
MR. SOMERSTEAD: My name is A1
Somerstead. I live adjacent to the Sannino's.
Their house and vineyard are to the west of me
and to the north of me they have a 400-foot
right-of-way which passes by my house to the
vineyard.
Now, I'm against they're being granted a
license to run a B & B for many reasons.
Plus, this site is overused. He has a lot of
things going on here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you to
raise your right hand?
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you solemnly
swear the information you're about to give us
is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Yes, sir.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: First of all, he had his
residence here. He runs his construction
business out of here, although there isn't
heavy lumber trucks there are trucks making
deliveries now and then. He also has this
vineyard and he does have a winery, but he
calls it by another name. He's trying to do
an end-run around this. He has advertised on
the internet or last year or so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can't, pardon
me, ma'am, you can't speak without --
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Okay. He has what he
calls a wine educational group where he has
people sign up to come and learn all about the
wine making procedure, cutting the grapes,
trimming, and all that. At the end of the
year they have a harvest, they barrel and
bottle the wine and then they divide up the
spoils so to speak. You have to pay a certain
amount to get your own barrel and you get your
own bottles of wine with your name on it,
guess. At times I have seen 20-30 cars on his
property parked all over the road.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Now you've been to the site, you can
imagine 20-30 cars parked on this place. He
also has his field hand workers going up and
down this road. You talk about the original
covenants. The original covenants say that
this road is not to be a hindrance or any
other pest or cause the neighbors any grief.
Well, it is. This road is 400 feet on the
north side of my property made out of gravel
10-foot wide, it's a one-way road. You can't
get -- two cars can't pass there. My concern
is with all the traffic here we sure don't
need more traffic even though it may be one or
two cars. Enough is enough already, he's got
too many things going on here.
Talk about his B & B. I spoke to Damon
Morales the Code Enforcement man. He was out
there last week. I saw him; I met with him
Friday at his office. He has issued a cease
and desist order for his B & B and a cease and
desist -- not cease and desist, but he has
been cited for operating a winery.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just
explain something to me, sir? He has just
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indicated to us, under oath, that he is not
operating a winery.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Well, he may not call it
a winery, but if you're making wine and
selling it, what is it? Are you giving it
away?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the point in
question is, when you actually produce the
grape -- I don't know this much about it,
okay, other than the fact that when you crush
the grapes and when you put it in barrels,
okay, he's indicated to us that he is not
doing it at that location. Okay, so he may be
doing that at an alternate location and
bringing the barrel back. Okay?
MR. SOMERSTEAD: I don't think so. He
has a wine barn -- the bottom of his B & B is
a wine barn where he holds his affairs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So where is that?
MR. SOMERSTEAD: On the property, his
garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: He's applying for a B &
B upstairs on the garage a two-story garage.
The bottom started out as a garage, but it's
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converted to a wine barn now. He calls it
wine barn on his website. Now you can go on
his website and look up all these things, it's
there for the public to see.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We are aware of
that, sir, and I have to be perfectly honest
with you, we're going to ask him that question
the minute you finish mentioning this to us.
Okay, so that we know exactly what the story
is and that's what we do. We're kind of like
investigative before we make a decision. So
MR. SOMERSTEAD:
been running the B &
Also I submitted -- He's
B before he's licensed.
You know, it's very presumptuous of him. So
he's the kind of guy who comes out here and
does whatever he wants. You know, he thinks
he can get away with anything he wants.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just
elaborate to me and to the Board what is the
real concern in reference to using the right-
of-way? Is it dust, is it --
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Dust and when it gets
dry every car that goes up and down there
throws a cloud of dust and it (inaudible) over
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
the property. I can't sit in my backyard and
enjoy myself if every time a car goes by here
comes a dust storm. Plus, that dust is laced
with pesticides that they use to spray his
grapes. You know, I can't -- and it's very
unsettling. I can't enjoy my own home
especially when he has these wine groups with
20-30 cars here. Some of the earlier ones
even had two tour buses from Adelphi
University. Can you imagine two tour buses
going down that road?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to come up
if you want to talk.
I mean, we're going to ask him when he's
finished to sit down and you can talk unless
you want to come up and -- I'm not pushing to
you do it, though. Okay? I apologize, go
ahead, sir.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Oh, no. That's why I'm
objecting to this B & B. It's just one of
many things that he's been doing and we don't
need anymore on this property. Like I said,
he's got a residence, a construction business,
a winery, a vineyard, he's got field hands
coming and going. His workers from the
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construction company always coming back and
forth to pick up something or looking for a
paycheck. It's never ending, especially on
the weekend when they have these wine groups.
They are also allowed to show up on his
property any time they want.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just mention
something to you, that the nature of this
permit is a permit that is given by this
Board. It is a permit that is also, in an
abuse situation, could be taken away. We've
only done that once in the Town of Southold
and it was not done recently, but the issues
of these permits are important for us to
understand or the issuance of these permits is
important for us to understand the entire
situation, okay? And that's what we're doing
at this particular time. We're fact finding
at this point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you kindly
approach and show me on this tax map exactly
where your property is? I just want to be
clear where -- here's the flag
there's their property.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: Alright,
(inaudible) and
I'm right here.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, you're right there.
Okay, you're right at the entrance of -- yes.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: (Inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Here's the survey,
Leslie, if you want to use that. Here's his
property right here.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SOMERSTEAD:
map.
Okay. Alright.
Here's a more detailed
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's fine.
MR. SOMERSTEAD: So you can see it's a
flag lot and every time they come back there,
he's up and down that road, dust is flying all
over the place. The traffic especially on the
weekend when he has these wine groups is non-
stop.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SOMERSTEAD:
Alright, I appreciate.
I say enough is enough
already. I say these people if they wanted to
engage in these activities they should have
bought a place with a direct access to a road
so they didn't disturb their neighbors. I'm
not against them trying to make a living, but
not at my expense.
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That's all I have to say and I think my
wife, Frances, she has a few statements to
make as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
mike.
MR. SOMERSTEAD:
Let her come to the
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you like to
speak, ma'am? Okay, would you state
for the record when you get up here,
MS. SLEZAK: My name is Frances
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you need to
speak into the mike a little bit. I
apologize. There's no preamp on that mike.
BOARD ASST.:
please.
MS. SLEZAK:
BOARD ASST.:
MS. SLEZAK:
Spell your last name,
S-L-E-Z-A-K.
Thank you.
I reside at 7405 Alvahs
your name
please?
Slezak.
Lane, Cutchogue on the property that abuts the
Sannino residential property on both the
westerly and northerly boundaries.
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I'm requesting you deny the permitting of
a Bed & Breakfast on the Sannino property at -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need you to raise
your right hand.
MS. SLEZAK: Oh, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright.
Do you solemnly swear the information
you're about to give us is the truth to the
best of your knowledge?
MS. SLEZAK: Yes, I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. SLEZAK: I'm requesting you deny the
permitting of this Bed & Breakfast on the
Sannino property at 7490 Alvahs Lane,
Cutchogue as I believe it is not incidental
and subordinate to the principle use of the
dwelling, but another means to morph this
property's functioning of a vineyard, winery,
and building contractor's business which
significantly, adversely and directly
endangers my health, safety and general
welfare.
This Bed & Breakfast is located above his
three-car garage, which he uses as a winery,
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and refers to this B & B as his "Tuscan suite"
on his Bella Vida Vineyard website,
www. Sanninovineyard.com. Before I go on I
would just like to say that -- I'll go on for
now. I object to this B & B as it produces
more commercial activity with the potential
for more disturbing winery activities
intruding on my privacy perhaps even combining
the use of the B & B with more large transient
groups having outdoor celebrations with loud
and noisy music, food and alcohol; such
perhaps as having a wedding and a wedding
suite causing noise and traffic disturbances
and nuisances to me and my property.
I also have a concern of danger arising
from drinking and driving traffic on this dirt
access road that abuts my northern boundary.
This "Tuscan Suite", the B & B has been
advertised on the Sannino's Bella Vida
Vineyard website prior to its being Town
permitted and I have witnessed an elderly
couple seemingly living in the B & B property
since May or June '09. I've even witnessed
one of the male adult, on a different day this
was, the male adult waiting with one of his
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
children to catch the bus. I've also seen the
elderly female lady waiting with one of the
children to catch the bus 6, 7, 8:00 in the
morning. I believe that couple has been
living in there, that gold car goes back and
forth everyday.
The Sannino's winemaking group was
initiated July '07 as on their initial
website. They have a new website now and I
have copies of it at home. I wasn't going to
bring it because I figured we were talking
about the B & B, we weren't talking about the
winery, but since we're investigating I will
send you what I have written, in which he's
inviting the public to his open houses. I
have the dates here in the packet of the
actual dates that he invited open houses,
everybody welcome, come on in.
Wine tasting. Wine taste making
activities. He's has 20-30 cars at a time
cramming together for unsafe parking. These
20-30 cars really become 40 or 60 passersby my
property on their abutting access road to
create danger to my personal property as they
part in my trees and maneuver unsafely close
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to my person and property. Particular
disturbance was the attending of three Adelphi
tour buses filled with people snaking along
the abutting access road and outdoor harvest
events. One being for two days of one weekend
with cars coming and going all day long with
loud, live outdoor music amplified to blast
disturbing noises much of the two days. These
were not private parties, these were listed
events on his website, which I have.
Even just the residential traffic on this
10-foot wide and long narrow dirt access road
to the Sannino property from Alvahs Lane that
abuts my property northern boundary causes me
health and safety concern. Traffic on this
eroding dirt road causes clouds of dust over
my property laced with pesticides from the
abutting rows of grapes approximately 10 feet
from my property line. Having B & B guests
would only increase these concerns with their
many comings and goings on this road. It's
not just one car there, it'll be back and
forth all the time everyday having people at
the B & B and I don't need anymore ongoing
traffic and problems.
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The number of cars entering the access
road doubles with the disturbing traffic as
they exit on the same one-way road.
Congestion of cars have even lined up on
Alvahs in front of my house waiting for their
turn to enter the access road causing great
drifts of dust going completely across my
property as they travel as a line of cars when
possible. As a matter of fact, one time when
they were all coming to pick up their cases of
wine in the evening in December when it was
dark they lined up in front of my house and
they couldn't even get down the road. They
had to wait, they had to go down and they were
in the back putting cases of wine in the cars,
then the car would go. Then another car would
go. This took like three hours of this going
on. All towards --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How recent was
that, ma'am?
MS. SLEZAK: Excuse me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me,
recent was that?
but how
MS. SLEZAK: Last December. I have it
written on my calendar at home because I have
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been taking notes. I didn't bring it all
because I thought we were talking only about
the B & B and I didn't want to get into all
the negative things. I mean I have more. I
could go on with the DEC and the over
spraying. I'm not getting into all of that
now. He's been cited.
All too often cars speed or drive
recklessly on this road causing safety
concerns for me and my property. It can be
very difficult and discomforting to try to sit
and relax on my property at times due to all
the commercial activities generated by the
Sannino wine making activities. I question
the size of the Sannino site, the location of
the B & B and whether the area is sufficient,
appropriate and adequate for this B & B with
the Schneider greenhouse business and its road
to the back of the operation, its trailer
housing two adults and three children all
almost sitting on the northern Sannino
property and my home and property in such
close proximity to the Sannino activity.
I feel there is an overcrowding of land
use and activity. Within 50 feet of my
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northern boundary I have activity of a
residence, vineyard workers, pesticide
spraying, invited public for winemaking,
traffic related to a winery and a building
contractor's business which as he said he
himself building locally has driven back and
forth to go pick up wood to go back to the
site, a greenhouse business and a trailer for
residential use.
Should there be a fire well as once
planned for the Sannino property as in their
initial site plan under the previous owner,
which was changed due to its use being only a
vineyard with no building structure? The
previous owner of this property, Mr. Watts,
was denied the opportunity to build a winery
on this site and has his winery production in
Greenport called Turnhaven Cellars Winery.
Knowing of Mr. Watts' denial to have a winery
at this location in question, I believe the
Sannino's should have selected a more
appropriate site for their anticipated
business with a direct access to a road which
would not be a nuisance to a neighbor. I
believe this concentrated activity of business
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
has morphed into the area to devalue my home
and my property.
In reading several articles about the
Sannino's, one in particular a vineyard
offering winemaking membership by Mark
Harrington, July 25, '07, which is on the
internet as other articles, he talked about
Mr. Sannino's love of winemaking matured at
their previous home in Manorville with a quote
by Mr. Sannino referring to winemaking, "it's
been an idea in the works for years and
years," Anthony Sannino said, "the location
was the key. We wanted it to be on the north
fork." Our town has been busy preserving land
in the area near the Sannino location and I
have included a map showing development rights
bought by the County of Suffolk and the Town
in the surrounding area.
I feel with the number of residences and
preserved land, commercial activity to be
increased here would be inconsistent with its
rural character. I object to commercial
activity morphing to infringe on the rights of
the homeowners to enjoy the land to its
fullest. I object to the establishment of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
this requested B & B. Thank you for your
time, consideration.
I also have a packet of information. I
have photos submitted and I also have from his
website dates where he invited the public,
it'll be in your packet, but I'll read it to
you right now. March -- I have from the
previous year, '08. 3/3/08, 3 p.m.
educational wine tasting. Open house 12 to 2
on 4/26. 4/27 open house 2 to 4. People do
not come on time, they just kept coming. As a
matter of fact many of these lingered
afterwards. 5/1/08, deadline for labeling.
5/2/08. 2007 and new 2008 members wine and
cheese social 5 to 7 p.m. We're accepting
2008 membership applications. When you sign
up membership will be iramediately activated.
You can start to learn the whole vine to wine
process from the beginning.
In addition, to our state reds, Bella
Vida is excited to offer white wine for the
'08 harvest. What does that mean? He doesn't
have white grapes? Is he getting more grapes
so that now he can have more people come to
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make more wine and have more traffic come to
his garage that is a winery?
May 31st educational tasting schedule.
Saturday, May 31st 4 p.m. wines of Italy.
Saturday, June 21st 4 p.m. wines of France.
Saturday, July 19th aromatic white wines.
Saturday, August 16tn 4 p.m. sparkling wines.
Saturday, September 13tn 4 p.m. hot climate
wines. $35.00 per person for members and
their group. $45.00 for sparkling wines.
$45.00 for person for non-members. He allows
non-members to come to these activities and
also to his harvest fests. It's not just
members, he invites others on the website.
"We also do private tastings for any member
and their family, friends over the summer in
the vineyard. Please contact us if you're
interested in setting up another date and
time. In addition to our states reds and
rose, Bella Vida is excited to offer
Chardonnay for the '08 harvest."
I have more things in the packet. I have
photos, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just clear
one thing up. What you are basically
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
referring to is any activity that relates to
the grapes that are presently grown on this
property or any future grapes or any grapes
that may or may not occur on how they get
there. What you're saying is that the
creation and, please, I'm not putting words in
your mouth, I'm just trying to understand
this, okay, because you're here to counteract
or contradict me, what you're saying is that
the creation of a one-bedroom suite for the
purposes of the B & B will exacerbate this
situation or create more of a hazard or
whatever the case might be.
MS. SLEZAK: I'm saying it opens the door
for him to create more activities. I don't
see it as just a B & B for one person. I see
it as an extension of his winery. Nowheres --
when he's asked to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
I understand what you're saying, but go ahead.
MS. SLEZAK: Nowhere has he been
forthright. When he moved here and put the
winery in operation, I went to see Mr. Anthony
Tezi who was the Planner at the time of the
building -- before the building hearing. I
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went to him and I said, I pointed out two
things which I don't have with me now, that
the actual survey is incorrect as according to
the -- where my septic and my well is. I
pointed it out to Mr. Tezi, I said because
their survey is incorrect and I didn't write
this down, but I have concern that my well is
so close to the constant spraying of pesticide
that I feel it should be accurate that survey
and it's not. I also asked him if he has any
ideas of it becoming commercial. He said, oh,
no, no. It's just an interest, their hobby
and there's no -- they have no concern for
making it.
Prior to the hearing, I was out on my
property one day and the Sanninos passed me
and they approached me when I was living there
and they asked me what's like living here and
I said well I just have one concern that any
commercial activity beyond the vineyard, there
was a vineyard there with Mr. Watt's property,
but it was only limited at the beginning there
was a grass road it was a grassy field. It
wasn't a dirt road. I said any commercial
activity extension would be upsetting to me
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and I would object. Oh, no, no. We'd never
do that. We're quiet people. We want to keep
to ourselves and to me then when I see what
happened the very next harvest when he talked
of the first harvest prior to his quote
whatever winery. Sure I saw them, they lined
up on the whole road in my trees, that whole
400 foot were cars lined up. He didn't even
have the decency to have them park in the
back. He had them park on the dirt road all
along and you know what they people trying to
do to get out? They couldn't get out they
were trying to maneuver and then people make
rude comments to me, his guests make rude
comments to me when I'm in my garden. Oh,
what are you doing over there? Spying on my
friends? I'm working in my garden. I don't
need that kind of aggravation. They're not
monitoring it and if you notice the dirt road
doglegs so they don't see what's going on down
there. They don't see the cars speeding.
They don't get any of their own traffic. It
stops right there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
We appreciate it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. SLEZAK:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
move this hearing along.
anything in rebuttal?
MS. SANNINO: Can I just
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of
MS. SANNINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you for your time.
Okay, we have to
Mr. Sannino,
give you this?
course you can.
You only have four,
okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
Leslie.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
We need one for the record.
Thank you very much.
I can share with
Okay. Give one to
Michael. I have one for the record and let me
have the extra one and we'll share it over
here.
MS. SANNINO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SANNINO: We'll be quick in
responding. There is a notice I'd like the
Board to hand to our neighbors, if possible.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm. We don't
normally do that, but it'll be made part of
the record. They can pick it up, okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. SANNINO: Quick response. If you
notice also on the website we have a new
location for the wine events. As far as
harvest goes, we will be having a harvest at
our home and it definitely will be family and
friends and I'm sure Code Enforcement can
check that at the time, but as far as a new
event and everything the website will clearly
state its new location and all of the events
as far as bottling, making the wine and so
forth.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So any activity
that occurred in the past is not going to
occur on the site at this time?
MR. SANNINO: Correct, but we can't
assure that we're not going to have a
tremendous amount of traffic cause we are a
very active and social.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. SANNINO: As far as the older people,
those are my parents who have been staying
with us until I finish their home. We are
currently moving their furniture today, so
that activity will slow down a little bit.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have an extra
copy of this right here?
MR. SANNINO: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is that, Jerry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a notice of
protected farm practices.
MR. SANNINO: Yeah, we are in the Ag
district. We do have an Ag number and we do
have farm workers working in the vineyard and
that will always continue.
another copy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it in the file because we
We don't have
Okay, we'll leave
don't -- anything
you give us we don't give out unless we have
an extra copy. We'll give these people a copy
when we're done.
MR. SANNINO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so again
we're going to close this hearing at this
particular point; is that correct? Is
everybody comfortable with that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. SANNINO: I'm sorry, do we know when
we'll know the results of the hearing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I am going to
ask the Board the schedule meeting for
deliberation is around three weeks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Three weeks, I think.
BOARD ASST.: September 15.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: September 15tn, I'm
going to ask that meeting be moved to
September 22nd so you might want to call and --
so it'll either be September 15tn or September
22nd. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're
going to make a decision that night; it means
we stop deliberation on that. Okay, we have
62 days to make a decision and if we can't
make a decision in 62 days, we speak to the
applicants and ask them if we can have an
extension and we would be calling you and
telling you that we need an extension.
MR. SANNINO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to ask one
more question before we close this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Will you please just
clarify just to conclude this, that what
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
you're saying is that the intensity of use in
terms of cars coming and going because of the
kinds of activities related to your wine
tasting, are you actually using your garage at
the moment to bottle wine?
MR. SANNINO: No, we're not. No, we are
not. We did welcome all of you Board members
to take a look and nobody wanted to, but we've
already moved our --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It never occurred to me
to look in your garage for winemaking
activities.
MR. SANNINO: Also in regard to
construction, I think if the Board looks at
the system of how many permits we have for
construction, possibly the construction
vehicles pertain to the construction taking
place at my own home, not my business per se.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to clarify.
You have been engaging on your property in not
only the harvesting of the grapes, picking of
the grapes, but bottling it as well on the
premises?
MR. SANNINO: For home winemakers, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For home winemakers.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. SANNINO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You are saying that
those activities are now going to take place
elsewhere. Ail you will be doing --
MR. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- will be having field
hands --
MR. SANNINO: Correct and harvesting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So pick the grapes,
harvest the grapes, the grapes will be
transported elsewhere ---
MR. SANNINO: Right, production location.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- for production and
welcoming the public?
MR. SANNINO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because I am concerned
about the intensity of use of the property.
It's a 5-acre parcel, not a 10-acre parcel.
MR. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We know that. This was
not the subject per se of the hearing, but it
is certainly relevant in terms of the numbers
of uses on the premises.
MR. SANNINO: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I'm glad this came
out so we can address it. Would you have any
objection to when the Board grants variances
or Special Permits we have the legal right to
make conditions upon those permits, would you
have any objection to our placing a condition
upon the granting of this B & B that no public
activity for winemaking or even wine -- don't
know about the wine tastings either --
MR. SANNINO: No, we won't be doing any
of that, correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so you're alright
if this were to be granted you would
condition the fact that your property is not
to be used for any of those
purposes?
MR. SANNINO: Correct.
commercial
Yes, as far as
the farm purposes and activities they would
have to take place. You can't grow the grapes
somewhere else.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, oh sure. Well the
harvesting of the grapes.
MR. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They would be done by
field hands and friends and family?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. SANNINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that would take
place over how long a period of time?
MR. SANNINO: It's usually done over a
weekend time. It's not a big vineyard. So
within two days we have it harvested.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are under oath
and I -- it's not that I don't believe you, I
do believe you, but I want to see your garage
anyway.
MR. SANNINO: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what's
Saturday? 9:30, 10:00. 9:30,
time
I'll
just knock on the door when I
MR. SANNINO: Okay.
MS. SANNINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
see you also. Okay?
mike.
Thank you.
MS. SLEZAK:
Did Mr. Sannino
I may come over and
Yes, you want to use the
I just wanted to clarify.
say that the garage was not
the past?
a good
okay.
come over.
being used as making wine now or in
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. SLEZAK: Did he say now or in the
past?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now.
MS. SLEZAK: Oh, alright. I was going to
say because even on the website there's
pictures, there's even videos of them making
wine in the garage. So I just wanted to
clarify that. If he's saying it's not there
now, that's a different situation. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just have
you telephone number, please.
MS. SLEZAK: 7342898.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just in case
I'm outside I'll call you on my cell phone.
MS. SLEZAK: I appreciate that. Thank
yOU.
Sannino,
number?
MR.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And Mr. and Mrs.
could I just have your telephone
SANNINO: 7348282.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank
you very much.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6304 - Norman and
April Wenk
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for a Variance from Zoning Code
Section 280-116, based on the Building
Inspector's April 22, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed additions to
the existing dwelling at less than the code-
required minimum of 75 feet from the bulkhead
adjacent to Gardiners Bay. Location of
Property: 415 South Lane (a/k/a Huckleberry
Hill Road}, East Marion; CTM 31-16-2.2."
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. THORP: Hi, my name is Charles Thorp.
I'm the contractor, Mark Schwartz is the
architect (inaudible), he's away.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you
a question before you start so I don't forget
to ask this? Did he give you a copy of the
letter from John Senko?
MR. THORP: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he didn't.
Okay.
BOARD ASST.: I've got an extra copy
here.
MR. THORP: (Inaudible) site plan of the
building.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we need you
to answer this or give us an answer, you know,
within two weeks
it.
BOARD ASST.:
your name, please.
after the hearing so we have
We can't hear you. We need
It's being recorded and we
send it to a court reporter. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record, please.
MR. WENK: My name is Brandon Wenk. I'm
Norm and April's son. I've seen a copy of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Cinco's (sic) letter, my father did reply to
the letter last week. I know he gave a copy
to Mark Schwartz and I'm not --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a copy.
MR. WENK: Oh, you have a copy, my
father's reply letter?
BOARD ASST.: Well, because I think you
faxed it to us. Mark Schwartz didn't send it.
MR. WENK: My father probably faxed it.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, your dad did and we
sent it to the Cinco's (sic) only yesterday.
MR. WENK: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
So that clears that up.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. THORP: So you're denying the permit
within 75 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. THORP: You know, this is my first
meeting in this type of situation so I'm not
familiar -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We promise,
Charles, not to grill you that hard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. THORP: Okay. Ail I can do is tell
Mark Schwartz that (inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, I --
MR. THORP: (inaudible) to the permit.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- have a question and
it would help if you had a copy of this, this
site plan.
MR. THORP: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The proposed new first
story addition, the distance from the bulkhead
MR. THORP: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- okay, is indicated.
It appears to 88.8 feet, but it could be a
lesser point --
MR. THORP: It is, I believe it's 75
feet. The bulkhead jogs in --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes, I see that.
MR. THORP: -- and cause of the
(inaudible) that corner is the closest to the
house. May I approach?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure. Show me. Show
me where --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Okay, I want to know what your closest
distance is to the bulkhead with the new
proposed work.
MR. THOR?: (Inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's what we
need.
MR. THORP: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean, we have
a number here of 60+/- from the existing
house. Okay, and now we have the proposed.
MR. THORP: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I guess it's the
second story addition that's proposed.
MR TBORP: It could be -- it could be as
much as 60 feet from the point.
BOARD ASST.: When the application was
filed we were told that was the point that the
new addition started, the closest point that
it started.
MR. THORP:
BOARD ASST.:
Okay.
The alterations.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
told me, yeah.
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At 60 feet.
60 feet.
That's what Mark Schwartz
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, it appears that
it's at this corner and there's no new work at
that corner.
MR. THORP: Right. It's back from there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's back form there
so then that would be further.
MR. THORP: Further. He had mentioned to
me 75 feet. So this'll be another 15 feet to
the --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, that would
certainly help.
MR. THORP: Makes sense, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like we have
73.1 foot --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I see 73.1, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Isn't that what that
line is? 73.1 foot to the new construction.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: But what's it taken
from? Is it taken from this point in the
bulkhead or is it taken from the perpendicular
of the bulkhead?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like diagonal
MR. THORP: It's usually the closest.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's closest point.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's just here for
clarity, (inaudible) clarity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, what the
existing house is.
MEMBER SIMON: The existing house,
that's not the new.
MR. THORP: 60 is existing, 73 is
proposed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 73 is proposed for the
new --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: 73.1.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: --- is what you're
looking for.
MR. THORP: That point is renovation.
The existing (inaudible) here this area is
existing, we're going to renovate part of that
area to move the kitchen into that room.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So this is what's in
the house already?
MR. THORP: In the house, yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the actual, the new
structure is all the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is back here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
all the way back here
point here, I guess.
MEMBER SIMON:
It's 73 --
--- new structure is
and that is at this
How many feet is that?
MR. THORP: Well, if that's 72, this has
got to be more than 75.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's a little unclear,
that's what I would like to know.
MR. THORP: Alright. Well, it's 60 and
then to that point here, it looks like 73.1.
Se --
BOARD ASST.: And the elevation --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
this could be 73.1.
MR. THORP: This
well it looks -- this
It's unclear because
is 4.5 this line here,
is further away.
MEMBER SIMON: That's the shortest
distance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are any of the
proposed additions within 60 feet, that's the
issue.
MR. THORP: No, not at all.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's existing. Ail
new construction -- all new construction is
landward of the existing --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
dwelling.
MR. THORP: right.
Landward, yes.
-- of the existing
Mark said to me no
new work is within 75 feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: I'm not sure
Okay.
if you're
aware that on the elevation plan he does show
that there's a new bedroom, a new second floor
plan and it's starting at the same footprint
of the house, which is 60 feet.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Correct. That's
landward.
BOARD ASST.: That is 60 feet, so --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The new work is
landward.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So they're noticing it
(inaudible).
MR. THORP: (Inaudible) here that goes
down.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. THORP: The ridge goes down about
right here.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah.
MR. THORP: So that from there forward
toward the water is going to stay. From the
ridge pack is where we're going to add --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 73 foot mark.
MR. THORP: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Jerry, may I raise a
question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, can you just
wait one second, Mike? Is everybody set with
this now?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So where the new work
starts is going to be 73.1 feet --
MR. THORP: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- from the bulkhead.
MR. THORP: Correct.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. So you're
looking for a 1.9 foot variance from the
bulkhead.
BOARD ASST.: Could I just mention to Ken
one little thing, the 73 foot --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: -- it goes closer than that
now and you're only approving it at 73. The
Building Department may send him back again,
so you want to go with that 60 feet that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 60 foot.
BOARD ASST.: -- they have on the Notice
of Disapproval so you don't have to reapply.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. THORP: Okay
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In other words, you
don't want to have --
MEMBER WEISMAN: See it refers to
renovations, alterations to the existing
dwelling.
MR. THORP: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: With the same setbacks.
MR. THORP: You know, to be honest, I
know this roof is only 5 years old, but we may
end up striping that side of the roof. I
mean, but structurally we're not doing
anything other than maybe a side of the
roofing, but it's still within the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's still within
the 75 feet.
MR. THORP: That side of the roof would
be within the 60 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: May I ask a question about
this? It doesn't have to do with -- I think
it's a matter of how the Building Department
interprets the Code, namely if some part of
your house is less than 75 feet then anything
else you do to the house, even if it's part of
the same house, evokes a disapproval and
that's -- that is the way the Code appears to
be written. It doesn't deal with that case.
So the idea is if you had a house, I mean
this is a hypothetical, if you had a house
that was preexisting 40 feet from the bulkhead
and the other side of it was 60 feet from the
bulkhead and if you decided to build 10 feet
further landward from the landward side of the
house, they would disapprove it on the reading
of this and if that's the way the Code is
going to be interpreted, maybe it needs to be
revisited, then I think we do have to have
precise numbers to deal with this. I don't
think it's a substantive problem, but it's a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
technical problem about how the Code is
interpreted as it is currently written.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We really don't
want you to get another stop work order based
upon changing a small facade or a small little
overhang or whatever the case might be.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the way I looked at
this perhaps it is beyond 75 feet, that's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The new construction
where this might be a little unclear and we
know the house is within 75 feet.
MR. THORP: Yeah, the newer construction
is beyond 75 feet.
BOARD ASST.: What is the closest point
of the new alterations, is it 57 feet did you
say?
MR. THORP: The closest point is 73.1.
BOARD ASST.: So the 60 feet you said
that the roof would be modified and some
structural change would be there and that's --
MR. THORP: It could be, I don't think so
cause it is only a couple of years old.
BOARD ASST.: In the elevation plan, I
don't know if you want to take a look at it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. THORP: This area here is going to be
added on this way (inaudible). This area here
(inaudible) and that's the roof color. We may
end up striping this roof here to the roof
coming up to the ridge.
BOARD ASST.: Very minor.
MR. THORP: The only thing, the facade,
the soffits, everything is fine on that side
of the house. You know, there's a new deck,
fairly new deck (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. THORP: So, you know, it seems to me
that that's the only work that I could see
that we would do, other than maybe the siding
on the side going to the front cause
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
(inaudible) you wont have to come back.
MR. THORP: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Charlie, let me -- it
appears that what you're going to do is
increase the height of the existing second
floor; you're going to raise the ridge in some
way?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR.
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the existing house?
MR. THORP: Uh --
THORP: No higher than the existing
Not, but it will match
I believe so.
You're expanding the
You're adding a fifth
bedroom and one and a half baths are going to
become three full baths and it would appear
you're adding 393 square feet of new
horizontal area or 1 percent increase in lot
coverage, still conforming lot coverage,
however. Okay, I'm just verifying it. Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No further questions
from me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or me.
MEMBER SIMON: Or me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any further
questions from anybody for or against this
application?
BOARD ASST.: I just needed to ask for
the one green signature, you can get it back
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
application.
MR. THORP: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
kitchen and the den.
The ridge height on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
to me.
office.
card.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
signature card.
MR. THORP: Okay, is that
the
You can have it dropped off at the
The one neighbor's green signature
We're missing one
(inaudible) or
BOARD ASST.: You would you have
list. We can check it for you.
MR. THORP: Is it (inaudible)?
BOARD ASST.: Out of all of them,
it on
one that you didn't send. We'll tell
second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that the letter from LWRP
project is a consistent project.
BOARD ASST.: When
office, check your file,
who's missing give us a
there's
you in a
While you're doing
indicates that the
you get back to the
if you can't find out
call.
MR. THORP: Alright, what's the phone
number?
BOARD ASST.: Oh. Okay, hold on a
second.
MR. THORP: What's your phone number?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
BOARD ASST.: No, (inaudible) we got back
-- okay, you're missing Martini, Garden City
address.
MR. THOR?: I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
BOARD ASST.: Martini, garden City
address.
MR. THORP: Martini, thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. THOR?: And your phone number here?
BOARD ASST.:
MR. THORP:
BOARD ASST.:
7651809.
1809, thank you.
Yes. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Okay, before you leave, Charlie, we have
more questions.
Sir, would you like to ask any questions?
MR. WENK: No, I just wanted to be here
to answer the question on that letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Thank you
very much for coming.
Anybody else would like to speak for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6305 - Christine Franke
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for a Variance from Zoning Cod
Section 280-124 based on the Building
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Inspector's
Disapproval
alterations
February 19, 2009 Notice of
concerning proposed additions
to the existing single-family
and
dwelling with a setback at less than the code-
required 40-foot front yard setback, at 32345
Main Road and Bight Road, Orient; CTM 14-2-
17.1 {parcel contains 29,119 square feet)."
Yes, what would you like to tell us?
MS. MARTIN: Good morning. I'm Amy
Martin of Fairweather Brown Design, 205 Bay
Avenue, Greenport.
This is a farmhouse on the Main Road of
Orient. The owner has informed me that the
kitchen dates back to 1870 while other parts
of the home were adjoined to it in 1930s. It
was one of those houses that they moved and
parts fell off and they planted it. You know,
it was one of those really great Orient
stories. The house was formerly the home of
Bertha Okula, the current owner's mother, and
the previous application was made to
predecessors of this Board to subdivide this
and the property north of it now known as
belonging to James and Christine Franke at 295
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70'
ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Bight Road. The subdivision was granted and
signed by Chairman Goehringer in 1984.
Since then, the farmhouse was set up as a
living trust for Bertha Okula in the name of
her two daughters and, at this point in time,
Christine Franke is the sole owner as both her
mother and sister have since passed away.
There are issues with the Tax Assessor's
records that need to be resolved, but the
record of this hearing should be amended that
the applicant is Christine Franke only. James
Franke and Christine own the adjoining
property. So I -- we have to straighten that
out legally.
She's working, Christine is working this
morning here in Southold and can't attend the
hearing, however, if you have any questions I
can reach her by phone.
This -- they have no interest in selling
this home. The renovation, repairs and small
additions are being done in a manner that will
allow for the home to possibly be used as a
future Bed & Breakfast upon her eventual
retirement from her current occupation, but
that's nothing we're applying for here.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
The house has a preexisting
nonconformance of being less than 40 feet from
the road. The intentions of the owner are to
retain the historic character of the house and
bring the second story up to Code concerning
required headroom. One story addition to the
kitchen and wrap-around porch is proposed for
the east end of the house moving the exiting
two cellar entries that are currently in the
front of the house on the public side to the
back of the house. So, all of the new work is
proposed five feet farther from the Main Road
than the existing porch on the southwest end
of the residence.
Basically, what we're asking for is like
half of the house is too close to the road,
which is why we were disapproved cause it's
one of those we were just talking about where
doing any work on the upstairs because the
whole house is less than 40 feet to the road
as it exists causes the disapproval. The
front cellar ways are actually the same
distance from the road as what we're proposing
for the little front porch on the kitchen end,
but because so much of the house is ahead of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
the 40 feet we're, you know, there's more
there to disapprove of.
I don't believe -- we had one neighbor
has given us a verbal approval, Ed Latham, who
is one of the farmers in the area who lives
across the street is in favor of the house,
which is in fairly bad condition right now, of
being worked on and brought up to, you know,
restored. The idea is not to change at all
the character of the house, it's just to make
the upstairs legal. Make some of those really
tiny rooms into a more usable space. Right
now there are so many knee walls that anybody
over four feet tall would hit -- it's a great
place to raise kids, but
adults upstairs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a little tough on
This is like a
really major renovation though. I mean in
comparison to what the condition of the house
is now, right?
MS. MARTIN: It really -- interior it is,
but as far as the additions to the footprint
and the nonconformance, it really isn't.
Basically, most of what's being done is
raising the back side of the house to higher
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
headroom and the additions on the ground floor
are really one story little porches and a
small addition to the kitchen, which is really
quite tiny for the size of the house.
MEMBER SIMON: Is any of this being
demolished, the existing house? The existing
covered porch is going to be removed; is that
correct?
MS. MARTIN: The existing porch, no.
It's going to be restored. It's not really a
demolition thing. They may have to change
some footings and raise it up and work on it
as they can, maybe the roof there will have to
be replaced because it's in bad shape.
MEMBER SIMON: My question is that the
Notice of Disapproval I believe says 24 feet
is going to be the resulting front setback; is
that right, 197
MS. MARTIN: On the east end of the
house.
MEMBER SIMON: On the east end, but is
the 19-foot setback going to stay the same?
MS. MARTIN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It is. Okay, I didn't
find that on the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. MARTIN: Okay, the porch will be
exactly the same footprint and it just will be
repaired.
MEMBER SIMON: So everything that's being
added is going to be farther away from Main
Road than what is existing there?
MS. MARTIN: yes. The closest we will
be, actually, I believe those two cellar ways
are actually 24 feet from the current Main
Road, which we will be removing. So the
footprint is about the same as what exists
there now with the cellar ways.
MEMBER SIMON: So what you're really
asking is for permission to extend the house
where every square foot of the extension will
be setback more than what now exists?
MS. MARTIN: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. I have
no further questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It'll be setback,
actually, the Bilco doors that are there now
are like 23.8 feet.
MS. MARTIN: Right, it's slightly --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're proposing a
wrap-around porch at 24 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. MARTIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's close --
MS. MARTIN: And a much cleaner look than
what's there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I would say so.
That's the joy of architecture. No, I just
wanted to clarify that the -- it's virtually
the same setback as what's there now. It's
going to serve a whole lot better.
MS. MARTIN: For all intents and
purposes, we are increasing the amount of --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Habitable space, but
making a Code --
MS. MARTIN: But we're not bringing
anything closer to the Main Road than exists.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, the vertical
habitable space will be as per Code.
MS. MARTIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, this doesn't have
to go before Landmarks Preservation?
MS. MARTIN: No, it does not. It is not
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. MARTIN: We did apply with
Agriculture because it's in the farm community
and everyone was noticed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MS. MARTIN: And there haven't -- I
haven't received any communications.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Amy, we have a main
state road that's 66 feet wide, that's the
state right-of-way. Does the stone actually
start right after that 66 feet? Did you do
any measurements to see what the --- how much
grass we really had that was state property up
to that point?
MS. MARTIN: I did not do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MARTIN: I have surveys that might
show that, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you have any
information on that could you just --
MS. MARTIN: Okay. I'm sure originally
when the house was there that the road was
narrower 1817.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. MARTIN: So the
and the house has gotten
Right.
road has gotten wider
closer.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They put a cement
road in there, I mean there's no question
about it, okay, I just didn't know how it laid
out in reference to
(inaudible).
MS. MARTIN: I
the property because it's
don't have that, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you see anything
like that, would you let us know?
MS. MARTIN: I will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In other words is
there any --
MS. MARTIN: A marker that shows --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, is there any
indication that there may be more land there
than the 24 feet that's initially shown --
that you're requesting --
MS. MARTIN: From the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and that
actually exists.
MS. MARTIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, between
the rights-of-way. Usually take a middle line
and this gentleman -- and he knows this better
than I do and that's why I wanted to ask the
question before he started talking and asking
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
questions and I
more land there.
MS. MARTIN:
just didn't know if we had
I believe there is more land
to the property line, which doesn't show the
right-of-way that is there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MS. MARTIN: There is more land there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is more land,
okay.
MS. MARTIN: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. Just we
want to see that the property line is not the
edge of the roadway.
MS. MARTIN: Okay. I don't believe it
is. I will --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't think so
either.
MS. MARTIN: I will ascertain that and
get that to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Very good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application? This is %3
of the agenda, 6305.
Hearing no further questions, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING #6310 - Mary Gabriel
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances from ZBA Decision
#5199 to remove Condition that the
construction for a deck remain open to the
sky, and from Zoning Code Section 280-122,
based on the Building Inspector's April 7,
2009 Notice of Disapproval, to build an
enclosed addition to the dwelling, instead of
a deck open to the sky, with a setback at less
than 35 feet from the rear lot line, at 1115
Sound Drive, Greenport; CTM 33-4-74."
Let me just enter a few bits into the
record here. Why don't
name first?
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Yes.
My name is Linda Beutelschies.
you just state your
Good morning.
I'm the
architect for Mary Gabriel.
attend today.
BOARD ASST.:
name.
She was unable to
Please spell your last
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Oh, yes, certainly. B
as in boy, E-U-T as in Tom, S-C-H-I-E-S. I'm
at 9 Bernstein Boulevard, Center Moriches,
11934.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so the applicant
is before us because they previously received
a variance from the ZBA %5199 January 2003
permitting a nonconforming deck setback at 32
feet from the rear yard and that the condition
was that this deck remain open to the sky. At
the moment, the applicant -- sorry, that's not
right. The property is a nonconform -- the
property itself has a 32-foot rear yard
setback from the house. The deck addition is
at 20 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Code requires 35.
So that's what the variance was for. Now, the
proposal is to add a sunroom over about 11-
foot by 11.8 feet.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
11.4 by 11.8 feet.
Yeah, 11.4 by 11.8 it
says on the -- with a crawl space underneath.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It'll just take up that
small portion of the deck.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Without going beyond
the existing deck. Basically, the deck is 10
feet deep with two 16-inch treads. So we want
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
to go the 10 feet plus one tread and the wall
construction, 4-3/4 inch.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what will it
reduce the deck to? Excuse me, Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: The existing deck
currently length is 33 feet 9 inches.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: The remaining deck
area after construction, if approved, would be
23 feet 9 inches.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: The 10-foot depth
remains of the deck, but the new deck area
open to the sky would be 23 feet 9 inches in
length.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does your client
have any objection to that continuing --
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: No, not at all. They
were looking for the least encroachment, as a
matter of f~ct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if we again,
we're removing the encroachment, we replace
the encroachment -- excuse me. Removal of the
condition, replace the condition --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay, as open to
the sky for that 22 -- 23 feet 9 inches.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Right, they don't want
that altered. They really appreciated that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's okay. That's all
I was going to ask or say anyway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sorry, I didn't
mean to do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is very
straightforward --
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: Yes, it aligns with
the side of the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it's a very small
percentage of the existing deck and it will
really just enhance the livable space in the
house.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: That's correct. They
have no dining room. So their existing
sitting room is to be moved out there and the
space they have in the southwest corner now
would be the dining room, the new dining room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. BEUTELSCHIES: And they would match
all the exterior materials, cedar siding,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
(inaudible) siding,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
asphalt dimensional roof.
I have no further
I have no questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody else
like to speak for or against this application?
Hearing no further questions, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING #6309 - John and
Barbara Severini
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-116 and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's January 26, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed addition to
the existing dwelling, which new construction
will be: {1) less than the code required
minimum of 15 feet on a single side yard, and
{2) less than 75 feet from the bulkhead
adjacent to Fordham Canal. Location of
Property: 565 Gull
1000-35-4-28.27."
Would you care
Pond Lane, Greenport; CTM
to address this?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the record,
MR. HERMANN: Robert
You need to state
sir.
Hermann of En
Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road, Southampton,
New York on behalf of the applicant.
How's everybody doing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good.
MR. HERMANN: I'm glad this is Michael's
cause he likes the kind of stuff I'm going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
get into today.
This is probably one of the more de
minimus variance applications that we would
put before you pursuant to the Building
Department.'s interpretations there are two
variances at issue. One is the fact that the
-- and again this is notwithstanding Michael's
hypothetical on one of your prior hearings --
I believe that the reason we are here for a
variance for being less than 75 feet from the
bulkhead is not because the house is less than
75 feet, but because the proposed addition
itself is 70 feet. So either way we're here
before you today for that. The other issue
relates to the side yard setback where the
Building Department determined this to be a
nonconforming lot, a preexisting undersized
nonconforming lot of greater than 20,000
square feet, roughly what did they say 25-
26,000 and, therefore, they applied a 15-foot
setback to the principle dwelling from the
side yard.
While we would ultimately ask you to
grant that, what we are asking for you first
is actually to set aside the Building
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Department's interpretation on that point and
that's the variance that I want you to just
engage me a little bit because I think that
this case raises a critical flaw or a critical
I guess delinquency you would call it the way
the Code is written now with respect to lot
area.
What the Building Inspector has done is
they have taken the 18,602 square feet of
upland and the 7,947 square feet of underwater
land, combined it, and put us over 20,000
square feet in lot area and thus applied the
setbacks accordingly. The problem that we
have with this is our assumption based on two
reasons was that we would have had a 10-foot
side yard setback because the area of the lot
is actually less than 20,000 square feet once
you exclude the underwater land.
The problem here is that the 280-4
definition does not offer a definition of lot
area per se and 280-124 is silent as to
whether underwater lands should be excluded or
included in your lot area calculation when
determining what your lot area is and then
applying the yard requirements accordingly.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
So what we would argue is what the Building
Department what they should be doing here is
looking for guidance from other sections of
the Code as to whether underwater land is
included or not and the two other sections
that I could find would be Article 22, Section
280-113, which for the purposes of computing
density for development it excludes underwater
land. Under the more recently refined version
of buildable land, if you go to 280-4 in
definitions, again,
directed to exclude
land.
for buildable land you are
from lot area underwater
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. HERMANN: So now here for the
purposes of applying yard requirements,
however, the Building Department is deciding,
inconsistently with those other sections of
the Code, to include underwater land. So what
they're doing simultaneously either by Code or
by interpretation is saying for the purposes
of giving you your buildable area which, of
course, is critical because it dictates how
much of the lot you can fill with structure up
to 20 percent, we're going to make your lot as
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
small as possible, it's going to be 18,000
square feet and that's going to define your
buildable area, but then for determining which
nonconforming yard requirements we're going to
apply, we're going to at the same time
suddenly throw that underwater land back in,
say your property is 25,000 square feet and
now apply also the most restrictive
conceivable yard requirements in the Code.
So what the end goal here is is not so
relevant to me. You may say well it's
laudable that the Building Department is
trying to pinch the homeowner as much as
possible to keep structures as small as
possible, but legally I would think, and
equitably, you would want to at least be
consistent in how you're applying the Code.
Even if you say, well, that's not the way
the Code is written now, we would think that
the Building Department would at least go back
to any precedent that had been previously set
by this Board in reference to this property
and this Board has issued one prior variance
for this lot and as part of your determination
a few years ago you state in your written
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
decision that this is an 18,602-square-foot
lot. So not only do we believe that the
Building Department is acting inconsistently
with the direction they should be getting from
other sections of the Code, their
determination is inconsistent with this
Board's prior decision.
I had a conversation briefly with I think
it was Pat Conklin in the Building Department
and she said the prior decision had not
related to this kind of setback relief, but I
would argue that that's immaterial. In other
words, if you decided at that time what the
lot area was, one could reasonably conclude
that everything Mr. Severini showed at that
time you would have been viewing relative to
what that lot area was and anything that he
was showing would have to have complied with
the setbacks associated with that lot area.
So really what I'm asking you to do with this
case is to really act where the Code is really
absent because again there is nothing under
your nonconforming bulk schedule that says
whether underwater land should be included or
excluded. So this may be an unusual case
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
because you have a situation where if you lop
it in, it's one setback and if you take it out
it's another, but it is definitely a
deficiency in the Code.
Now, I have to understand that you may
not agree with me or you may feel that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sometimes we don't.
MR. HERMANN: But there's nothing you can
do at -- This is a pretty good one though, you
have to admit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You had to give it
to Michael. We couldn't just address the
normal variance --
MR. HERMANN: No, be -- well, the problem
is that I promised John I would do this
because now getting to the variance, which is
what you want me to do, this was really
designed so as not to be here at all. It was
designed to meet that 10-foot setback so we
wouldn't have to come to you and the addition
was also proposed specifically on the landward
side of the house so we would have that
exception to the 75-foot setback requirement
from the bulkhead. The problem is, in
addition to everything else I just talked
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
about, the Building Department also
interpreted that this addition is not on the
landward side of the house because it comes up
on to the west side of the house. It's still
farther back than the rest of the house, but I
know that this Board and the Town have spent a
lot of time with that area of what should be
exempt and what's really landward and what's
not. So I'm not going to get into that today.
I'm just making the point that we really
thought we were okay several months ago when
Mr. Severini applied the building permit
application. So again notwithstanding that,
notwithstanding your decision on our appeal of
the Building Department's interpretation,
basically, these are variances that truly are
minimal. They are not going to change the
character of the neighborhood. They're really
not going to change the character of the
property with respect to the bulkhead because,
of course, most of this house is already much
closer than the 70 feet that this addition
will be and for all common sense purposes it
really is a roadside addition. It really is
on the landward side of the house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
With respect to the 12.4-foot setback
from the side yard, should you choose not to
accept my prior argument, the adjoining parcel
has a house that is 12.2 feet from the side
property line. So not only are we only asking
for 2.6 feet of relief, but we're asking for
the same situation that exists on the property
to the west.
We cannot achieve this addition without
asking for some relief given the
interpretations by the Building Department.
Obviously, there's nowhere, and again this
goes back to Michael's hypothetical, there's
nowhere we can put the addition on this
property that wouldn't be less than 75 feet
from the bulkhead and you have to believe me
and trust me when I tell you that Mr. Severini
went through about 15 iterations of this plan,
pinching walls, pinching corners, minimizing
the structure as much as possible so we can be
as far from the bulkhead as possible.
We would argue that both percentage wise
and the number of feet of relief we're asking
for these are both, again, de minimus requests
for relief. This is a project that has been
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
approved by the DEC. As the Board knows,
there's a 75-foot setback requirement from
wetlands for the state. They granted us
effectively a 5-foot variance for the addition
to be 70 feet from the bulkhead, as here the
bulkhead and wetlands are one and the same,
and as I included in the written narrative,
the variance will not have an adverse or
impact on the physical or environmental
conditions. Once again, we are on the
landward side. The wetlands adjacent to the
site consist of unvegetated littoral zone
tidal wetlands that front the deep water
manmade dredged canal. This canal is
characterized by a heavily developed shoreline
where the majority of developments are located
similarly in preexisting nonconforming
distances from the canal surface waters and
wetlands.
Nonetheless, the project incorporates
specific mitigation measures to minimize any
perceived impact to the project including the
use of pervious gravel material for the
driveway, installation of a drainage system of
leaders, gutters and a drywell to capture and
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
recharge roof runoff and establishment of a 5-
foot-wide approximately 320-square-foot non-
turf buffer in place of the existing
maintained lawn on the landward side of the
bulkhead on the westerly side of the property.
We were granted a wetlands permit from the
Southold Town Trustees for the project as
well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question? What was the purpose of the
addition to the house as opposed to leaving it
as a accessory structure in a side yard?
MR. HERMANN: The purpose of the -- say
that again?
CHAIRMAN
house?
GOEHRINGER: Attaching it to the
MR. HERMANN: Oh, well that relates to
the interior design. I don't know if John or
his architect might want to speak to that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're putting bedrooms
there.
MR. HERMANN: It's basically an expansion
of the master bedroom.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Master bedroom suite.
MR. HERMANN: Upstairs.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: For habitable space.
MR. HERMANN: Yes, for habitable space
with the garage underneath.
MEMBER SIMON: You don't want them in the
garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: It has to be attached.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it has to be
attached.
MR. HERMANN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to
understand we just took two hours of testimony
on a winery situation in a residential
district, so I just had to ask the question if
he was planning on winemaking up there.
MR. HERMANN: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe they'll have some
wine up there.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I think you're right
in thinking this is the kind of application
that interests me. You also -- I also had to
follow the course of the logic that you've
made, the course of the logic of your
argument. In a way it answered many of the
questions that I was going to ask anyway and
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
the only -- the thing is -- well, just two
points, which are just observations. The
point is this curious phenomenon, which hasn't
been decided, is that when the measurement of
buildable space was concerned it didn't take
into account the fact that some of the
unbuildable apace is under water.
MR. HERMANN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: And, therefore, would
presumably not have found it as lot coverage
and, therefore, that change in the law would
have no affect on that.
MR. HERMANN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: So then they're bringing
this in to say, well, if it's under water it
sounds as though it has -- it's buildable
space. I mean what's -- it's understandable
that they would make it that way. The other
is so the -- so that distinction could be
made, that's not for us to argue how the Code
should be rewritten.
MR. HERMANN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: But, I guess I would say
that the variance in other days, another
Board, you'd probably get the variance on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
grounds that the reduction from 15 to 12.4
would probably be acceptable by this Board
instead of this rather I think impressive
argument it should have been 10 feet in the
first place and you wouldn't have been here.
MR. HERMANN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: But the reduction to 12.4
is not what I would call de minimus. It may
be minimal, but it's not de minimus, but it --
I think you've done -- presented parallel
arguments which make this a lot less difficult
to conclude if not maybe more difficult to
write, but not difficult to conclude.
Okay, so I appreciate your (inaudible).
MR. HERMANN: No problem. I appreciate
you're hearing it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. All this
flurry up here is because my hands have gone
numb. I can't write my notes anymore.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's absolutely
freezing up here, it really is.
MR. HERMANN: Like I said I had the
simple answer, I didn't know if you were
looking for something more --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have a specific
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
question if it's okay, about the site
inspection. I observed, I'm sure everyone
else did too, a whole stand of very mature
evergreen trees along the sort of close to the
boundary. I'm not sure who they belong to.
It was very hard to figure out the property
line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Would you state
your name for the record, sir?
MR. SEVERINI: John Severini, property
owner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MR. SEVERINI: Thank you. Yeah,
those
evergreen trees are beautiful. They're old
and they are my neighbor's, Bob and Allison
Wizurik. I've talked to them, you know, many
times about this project cause it's been years
in the formulating. I've had an arborist come
in. We do have to do some trimming upward to,
you know, remove some branches, but he assured
me, you know, we're far enough away from the
rot system as to not harm the trees. We -- I
love trees and I will do everything in my
power to make sure that those trees are
preserved including a different kind of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
foundation, which if we have to go that route
the contractor talked about helico drilling
some cylinders, if you will, down into the
ground and not a straight foundation, but I
will definitely have an arborist --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So as to maintain some
of the root structure.
MR. SEVERINI:
trees are beautiful
those.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yeah. Correct, those
and we will preserve
It was just not clear,
you know, it was so close and I could see they
were certainly going to have an affect on the
two-story addition so I wanted to see how that
would all play out.
Can you submit something to that affect
either from your arborist or your neighbor or
you indicating that there is an agreement with
your neighbor that whatever impact that
construction will have on the trees as applied
for will be resolved --
MR. SEVERINI: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- through mutual
agreement or some such thing.
MR. SEVERINI: Yeah, absolutely.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have two weeks
to do that, sir.
MR. SEVERINI: Okay, so should it be from
myself or the arborist or the contractor or --
BOARD ASST.: It's your property and you
would be the one who is agreeing to replace
the damage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So whatever they
would give you, you would submit to us.
BOARD ASST.:
letter.
MR. HERMANN:
You would submit it with a
Okay. I don't know how
close your relationship with Bob is, but if he
would be willing to sign a memo that says that
he is aware of it, that he's discussed this
with you and that you've taken responsibility
to cooperate with him or whatever. I think
that would probably be the most effective
thing in addition to something from an
arborist.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. HERMANN:
A letter from both of you.
They just want to know that
it's being observed and there isn't going to
be Mr. Wizurik coming in here --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Screaming and whatever.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. HERMANN: -- with a camera in his
hand in a month and a half.
MR. SEVERINI: Okay, absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no
questions. Anybody else like to speak for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later pending the receipt of the letter that
we just requested from the applicant.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING #6307 - Michael Mongello
And Joseph Finora
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Waiver under Zoning Code
Section 280-11, to unmerge 19,208 square feet
of land from the remaining described property,
based on the Building Department's March 11,
2009 Notice of Disapproval, the properties
merged under Section 280-10(A) and were held
in common ownership with the first lot at any
time after July 1, 1983. The total area in
the existing merger consists of 34,018 square
feet. Location: 950 Wells Road and 900 Wells
Road (at corner of Albo Drive), Laurel. CTM
1000-126-3-5 and 1000-126-5-7.3, respectively.
Zone District: R-40 Residential."
Who's representing them?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Finora.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, Mr. Finora, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
use the mike, Mr. Finora,
please.
MR. FINORA:
Can we ask you to
and state your name,
My name is Joe Finora and I
guess I'm considered the contract vendee.
in contract to purchase the land from Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Mongello who is one of the heirs of the estate
and the property has been deeded to him by the
executrix of the estate of his mother, Mrs.
Agatha Mongello, and he's been in contract to
sell the land to me for I guess about four
years now and we had the zoning -- the merger
problem and since the merger law was changed
it seems like we fit within the criteria of
the new merger law requirements and that is
basically what gave rise to us asking for
relief under the new merger provisions.
I've done some extensive background
checking on the situation as far as the lot
size goes. I met with the Town Tax Assessor's
office and unfortunately I cannot give you a
copy -- you probably all have a copy of this
map, but they've marked off all the existing
parcels and it was quite clear to them that
the parcel in question is greater than the
majority of the lots in the area, also greater
than the majority of the lots in the 1000-foot
area of these subject parcels and they seem to
meet the other requirements of it being in
separate ownership and never been transferred
to anyone outside the family prior to whatever
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
date, you know, you mentioned and we see no
reason why it cannot be done.
So my application to the Board was to
have the property unmerged and have it treated
as a separate lot so I can proceed with my
contract with Mr. Mongello. My sole reason
for me wanting this is because my wife and I
would like to build a home that would be right
on the same street as my son. He lives down
the road and, you know, we have three
grandchildren down there and we want to be
closer to them as we approach our golden
years.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Finora, can you
tell us who is present with you today?
MR. FINORA: My wife is here and also Mr.
Mongello.
MEMBER SIMON: Reading this application
it took me a long time to sort it all out.
Actually, it was helped a little bit only a
few days ago when I got another -- a
supplement that helped because the -- one of
the elements, as you know, and this is
asserted is that it has been in common family
ownership.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. FINORA:
MEMBER SIMON:
presented made it
figure this out.
Right.
The documents that were
very, very difficult to
For one reason is that one
person, namely Ida Mongello, Agatha --
MR. FINORA: Right, that's the deceased.
MEMBER SIMON: And --- but I mean there
were (inaudible) owners. Basically to figure
out and I guess it would have helped and we
don't have to do this in the report, it would
help if it was easier to see that that
provision was followed is (inaudible)--
MR. FINORA: (Inaudible), yes.
MEMBER SIMON: -- is also a relative.
There are easier ways of doing this, more
conspicuous ways of presenting a genealogy
than I found in this application.
MR. FINORA: Right. Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Having spent quite a while
doing this, I figured out that that provision
does seem to be followed. I looked at the lot
and very clearly they are distinct. They
ought to have been thought of as single and
separate because one of them is totally
undeveloped.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. FINORA: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, do you live -- who
lives in the existing house?
MR. FINORA: Uh, Macry (sic), Maria Macry
(sic). She's the executrix of the estate.
MEMBER SIMON: She's the -- and so she's
staying in that house and she wants to sell --
they're selling you the other --
MR. FINORA: No, she's already
transferred the lot to her brother, Michael
Mongello.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, that you want to
purchase.
MR. FINORA: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I see, alright.
MR. FINORA: Now let me clear up
something with the name. Her name, the name
of the woman that owned the property is
Agatha, but she's also known as Ida.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, they were -- I
tried to figure out when one of them passed
away and was the property was transferred from
Agatha to Ida or Ida to Agatha.
MR. FINORA: No. I had an Aunt Millie
who I called Mildred for years and when she
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
died I found out her name was Carmella.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, of course.
MR. FINORA: So I always called her Aunt
Mildred because everybody called her Millie.
I only found out after she died she was
Carmella. So, you know --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. FINORA: -- cause I had a mass card
prepared for her and they said oh, no, it's
not Mildred, it's Carmella. What were we
calling her Millie for all these years? It's
the same situation, Agatha is her real name,
but she was known as Ida and she is a
Mongello.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FINORA:
Right.
Her daughter is Macry.
Maria Mongello married Macry and Maria is
presently living in the house there with her
husband, but they haven't been there for about
the past two years because he is very sick and
the last time they arrived at the house he
crashed into the gas meter and, you know, they
had to cordon off the whole area because he
broke the gas line. He's very sick, so
they're trying to settle the estate and she
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
transferred the lot next door to her brother,
Michael, and he's here today.
So that -- I don't know if that helps.
MEMBER SIMON: It does. I just would say
you provided most of the raw data and then it
would be helpful if you'd actually do the
interpreting, the applicant did the
interpreting of the data rather then simply
giving it to us or just --
MR. FINORA: Right. Well on some of the
papers that were submitted, I did put Maria
Macry nee Mongello and also it should have
been Agatha AKA --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, I did -- that was
on the later section I got yesterday.
MR. FINORA: Yeah, so that's, you know,
about all I could tell you. I don't know if
you have any other questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any other
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's move on then.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, actually just to
clarify, when we went to visit the site, the
parcel that's adjacent to the improved lot
that's on the corner it's all wooded.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. FINORA: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that all one lot,
that wooded area or is that a double lot?
MR. FINORA: Well, the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The two lots, you own
one, Mongello owns one and there's another
wooded lot.
MR. FINORA: Well, as you face the
property, the property to the north of the
parcel is owned by Macry. It's not owned by
Mongello. It's owned by Macry who is -- she's
Marie Mongello married Macry. That's, you
know, that's her married name and she owns the
property next door. I believe it's in the
name of her and her husband.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I guess what I'm
trying to say is it looks really very large,
all that woods.
MR. FINORA: Oh, no it's not the whole
parcel, it's several lots.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm trying
to clarify because I saw a standpipe there on
the road and that I assumed was the property -
MR. FINORA: Yes. Yeah, that's a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
surveyor's marking.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's the parcel
cause there's continued wooded area, but
that's not the size we're looking at. We're
looking at from that standpipe over to the
improved lot?
MR. FINORA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
BOARD ASST.: This parcel border is owned
by Dominick Macry.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No questions.
Anybody else like to speak for or against
this application?
Sir, could I ask you to come up and use
this mike over here? Yes,
the record.
MR. WOLFROM: My name
state your name for
is Paul Wolfrom. I
own the house on 1055 Wells Road, which is
diagonally across from the property in
question.
We've lived there for six years. I am
happy to see -- would be happy to see that
particular property developed because it turns
out that a lot of the local contractors use
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
that as a convenient stopping place before
they take their stuff down to the landfill and
not only that, but there's a lot of local kids
that use that piece of property to sneak away
and have a couple of beers. They built a big
tent back there last summer, and you know, it
just -- I would like, prefer to see that place
developed as opposed to continue to be used as
a convenient place to dump stuff. So that's
my point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you spell
your last name for me?
MR. WOLFROM: Yes, Wolfrem, W-O-L-F-R-O-
M.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
MR. WOLFROM: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone
else would like to speak in favor or against
this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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113
ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING #6303 - William R.
And Marlen Bloethe
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for Variances under Zoning Code
Sections 280-122 and 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's April 6, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval and ZBA Code Interpretation under
R. Walz #5039. The reasons that the building
permit was disapproved concerning proposed
additions and alterations to an existing
single-family dwelling, which new construction
will be an increase in the degree of front
yard setback nonconformity at less than 35
feet. Also requested is a variance for
additions which increase the lot coverage over
the code limitation of 20 percent. Location
of Property: Greenwood Road, Fishers Island;
CTM 1000-12-1-13.1."
Hello. Would you like to come to the
microphone?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please state your
name, Sue.
MS. YOUNG: My name is Susan Young and
I'm here on behalf of William and Marlen
Bloethe that own the property and I'd like to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
also point out that I think we need a rear
yard variance also as has been pointed out,
but was not mentioned in the disapproval.
Basically, what we're trying to do is to
make a peripheral improvement of a house that
is in a historic area. (Inaudible) was built
over 100 years ago and it was a planned
community where all the houses were set back
the same amount and they were all of similar
depth and they had front porches and back
porches. Generally, those front porches and
back porches have remained, but some of them
have deteriorated and fallen off and in those
cases some of the owners have requested
variance to put them back on and that variance
was granted in the name of the application was
Rand and that is the next door neighbor to
this property. These front porches are a
pleasant accommodation to houses that would
otherwise look rather severe.
What we're trying to accomplish partly is
the preservation of the court so that the
houses can remain hopefully looking kind of
similar to each other and this particular
house was smaller than all of the others and
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
when these wings are added to it, it will be a
similar size, at least on the lower level.
They considered possibly expanding the second
floor, but the (inaudible) is against it
because it has a slate roof and also it's not
very good design wise because the house might
sort of tower over the neighbors, so that
these additions being low down are not so
imposing on the neighborhood.
With regard to the front yard setback, I
guess I already said that I think that it
would be ha~ing the porch built the way that
it's described would make the house more like
the other houses and would be an improvement
to the neighborhood. With respect to the lot
coverage, the lot that the house is on is very
unusual in that it's kind of triangular and
it's small and it's difficult to improve the
house because there is an enormous tree on one
side and then a neighbor on the other side and
you don't want to go too close to the neighbor
neither do you want to cut down the tree. So
it has to be done, you know, carefully. So
what we did was we just duplicated a bay on
each side. The back yard faces a -- well the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
existing fence would remain and existing
landscaping would remain. The Church, there's
a Church Fellowship house back there and it
wouldn't be any closer, the addition wouldn't
make it any closer to the -- make the built
upon part any closer than the original deck.
Basically, in order to preserve these
houses -- to preserve these houses you have to
be able to turn them into a good use because
right now they're so small that a family can't
(inaudible) live in the house. There was no
downstairs bathroom and also the views
previously looked directly out to the next
door neighbor's outdoor shower and on their --
into their dining area so that if you're over
there it looks like you're looking right into
their house, but with this new design that
sticks out in the back a little bit more, you
look out to the ferry and down onto a lawn and
so it would actually minimize the visual
interaction between the houses. The addition
doesn't affect any views. It doesn't block
anyone's views and I think that's about it.
Oh, I got letters from a few of the
neighbors. The neighbors closest by are the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Rands and they're the ones that really see the
addition and we faxed in a letter from Susan
Rand. The Ferry District says that they will
send a letter, there's a letter of no
objection. The Ferry District says that they
will send a letter of no objection, but can't
do that until they meet, you know, because
they are a governing body and they have to,
you know, okay it. They're going to meet on
September 1st. The school sent a letter that
they have no objection. The Church doesn't
meet until the 20th,
of different people
know they didn't ---
but I talked to a couple
from the Church and you
they didn't seem alarmed
by it. They had trouble figuring out where we
were talking about because the fence and the
landscaping I think are so complete that they
don't really notice the house over there.
I guess that's it. I'll be happy to
answer any questions. One addition, I sent in
a new survey and remeasured and the back yard
setback should be according to the new survey
measurement.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I have a
question. There was a variance %2718 back in
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
August 22, 1980 that gave you a variance to do
the deck at 14.3 feet; am I correct?
MS. YOUNG: (Inaudible) 14 feet long, I
think it was 10 feet wide.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The setback I mean,
14.3 feet.
MS. YOUNG: Oh, okay, yeah.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Now it's 13 feet. Was
it built --
MS. YOUNG: Well, we need a total of 25.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right.
MS. YOUNG: So if we have 15 feet on one
side, we only need 10 on the other.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking about
the rear yard. Wasn't the rear yard?
MS. YOUNG: The rear yard.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The rear yard setback
variance of 14.3 feet that was what was
applied for and granted and --
MS. YOUNG: Right, but it should be the
same. It's the same thing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: -- it's the same deck
we're talking about.
MS. YOUNG: It's the same thing and if
they came up with a different number, all I
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
can say is that we want to build it in the
exact same place that it is right now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The point being that
there was a variance granted for that deck
that exists today in the rear yard.
MS. YOUNG: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: At that setback.
MS. YOUNG: Alright, I didn't realize
that.
BOARD ASST.: It's not on the survey, the
setback to the deck, so we would need that.
You should have that setback by the surveyor.
MS. YOUNG: I think it -- isn't it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's take a look
at the new survey you just gave us.
MS. YOUNG: Look at the new survey by the
surveyor.
BOARD ASST.: That's the one we're
looking at.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's here.
BOARD ASST.: It says 21.5 feet to the
new addition to the house.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I see 13.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 13 is on here.
BOARD ASST.: Do you see 13 on the -- I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
looking
MS.
YOUNG: I measured.
I measured from
BOARD ASST.: Oh, that's not the survey
that they're look. They're looking at --
MS. YOUNG: {Inaudible), let me explain.
BOARD ASST.: They're different.
MS. YOUNG: Basically, we didn't want to
build the house in the wrong place, obviously,
so even though I could put in a site plan of
my own and have it recognized, we chose to
have the surveyor come out and do a new
electronic survey of the property of which,
you know, you'd have with a CME stamped on it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
MS. YOUNG: So the correct setback would
be from the -- a perpendicular point from the
shortest distance from the back of the -- from
the rear lot line to existing --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm just
commenting on the variance that was granted to
build that deck.
MS. YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Which I assume that's
the same deck.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. YOUNG: It is, yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The rear deck and the
variance was for a 14.3 foot rear yard
setback.
MS. YOUNG: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Your plan is
indicating that it's 13 feet. I would have to
assume then that the deck was built a little
bit larger back then than what was granted or
it grew.
MS. YOUNG: Yeah, I think the measurement
was not as accurate in those days because we
often were working with a Xerox and we would
scale off the Xerox and so this survey by CME
should be as accurate as is possible today.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
MS. YOUNG: So I would -- the deck wasn't
built any bigger, it was just I think that
perhaps they had the house positioned on the
lot in a slightly different way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is definitely
a good point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. The other thing
is that the -- you're absolutely right. The
Notice of Disapproval makes reference to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
fact that you have a -- the existing dwelling
notes a rear yard setback of 13.3 feet.
MS. YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm assuming that's the
deck, that's certainly not the dwelling.
MS. YOUNG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The new construction
maintains that setback then Walz is quoted
here, but they don't really -- they do notice
the side yard, the front yard and the -- what
do we have? Front yard setback of 28 feet
when the Code requires 35, and lot coverage of
25, the Code allows 20 percent, but they don't
really, although they cite the distance, they
don't include a disapproval for that rear yard
setback.
MS. YOUNG: I think that it was
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I wonder if you
should get an amended notice to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to let
it go because it may be an established rear
yard setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, relative to the
previous variance, you mean?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. YOUNG: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: What happen -- the
procedure would be, if an applicant ever finds
that something wasn't addressed by the
Building Department you should get an amended
corrected disapproval and then you can process
the --
MS. YOUNG: I could have done that last
week, but I didn't realize that I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We couldn't
advertise it anyway by that time.
BOARD ASST.: I'm not sure, I mean, the
procedure has been when you need another
variance you need to get your amended
disapproval. So you might want to do that
anyway for the record.
MS. YOUNG: For the record, yes. That's
not a problem.
BOARD ASST.: It hasn't been advertised
for that, so I would also -- technically, you
know, that's another procedure.
MS. YOUNG: Well, all of the other issues
are covered.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As I said, based
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
upon these there could be an established rear
yard setback because all of the houses are
pretty close --
MS. YOUNG: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay, and as you
know we've had really a laundry list of
variance applications on these houses since
they all went to private ownership.
MS. YOUNG: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we're not dating
ourselves in any way, however, in saying that,
are we? No.
MS. YOUNG: I try not to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In any case, so --
BOARD ASST.: Are you saying established
rear yard based on the prior variance to the
rear yard?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm saying based
upon all of the parcels and the placement of
the houses, even though they were government
houses, okay, that there's a possibility they
may not be looking at the rear yard because of
the established rear yard setbacks of all of
the houses on this --
BOARD ASST.: I think you're talking
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
125
way in the --
BOARD ASST.:
though.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Mention the prior variance
And mention the prior
variance, yeah,
another notice.
MS. YOUNG:
certainly --
and that way you won't need
Okay. Next time I'll
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that alright, Jen?
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MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's primarily
Walz here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe we can --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But I'm just saying
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- actually approach it
that way and just indicate that there's no
increase in the degree setback nonconformance
though there is an increase in the bulk.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. YOUNG: That's true, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Volumetrics, which is
why Walz is triggered because it's a vertical
increase. Maybe we could just treat it that
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And if for some
reason that doesn't work we will make -- we
will try and take you as quickly as we
possibly can.
BOARD ASST.: If there's a problem down
the road.
MS. YOUNG: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If there's a
problem.
BOARD ASST.: I'm just wondering, do you
think it might be something that's important
to get an amended disapproval just to have it
in the file so that we can show the Board
ruled on it as amended or should we just
address it the way it is?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you're going to
do it that way, I think you should have the
amended disapproval
MEMBER WEISMAN:
though?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have the same rear
yard setback.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, but just to have it
in the file though to show that --
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and, you know, again --
Do we have to advertise,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine. I don't
care, you could go over there today and just
take --
BOARD ASST.: Would you be able to get
the amended disapproval?
MS. YOUNG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And just take --
MS. YOUNG: I could go over there today
and bring it back here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, you could.
MS. YOUNG: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you certainly
could.
BOARD ASST.: Or you could leave it in
the door right there in the other building and
I'll get it later when I go back, so you don't
have to come back.
MS. YOUNG: Alright, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to make the paper
trail.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just tell
(inaudible).
MS. YOUNG: Alright, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) so we don't
have any issues.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MS. YOUNG: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Anybody
else? Do any of you want to say anything
about this hearing? No.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, pending receipt of
the amended Notice of Disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING %6306 and 6330 -
Kelly Myers
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Location of Property: 1730 Deep Hole
Drive, Mattituck; CTM 115-12-23.2 (adjacent to
Deep Hole Creek).
"%6306. Requests for Variances from
Zoning Code Section 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's March 25, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed addition to
the existing dwelling on this 8,480 square
foot lot, with proposed: (1) lot coverage
exceeding the code limitation of 20%; (2) a
side yard setback at less than 10 feet;
both combined side yard setbacks at less than
25 feet.
"#6330. Amended Request for Variance
from Zoning Code Section 280-116, based on the
Building Inspector's amended August 12, 2009
Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed
addition to the dwelling at less than 75 feet
from the bulkhead."
Alright, it looks as though we
issues a single side yard at 8 feet
10. Total side yard setbacks of 18
have three
instead of
instead of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
25. Lot coverage at 21.4 percent instead of
20 percent and bulkhead setback, that's number
four, at 57 feet and the Code requires 75
feet.
MR. LEHNERT: Well, the side yard
setbacks --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Enter your name.
MR. LEHNERT: Oh, Rob Lehnert, Peconic
Permit Expediting, Cutchogue.
The side yard setbacks are in keeping
with the existing setbacks of the house, which
therefore kicks in the aggregate side yard as
being under. The reason that the deck is
actually sticking farther out into the rear
yard than would be allowable is we have a
basement entrance down there so we're trying
to maximize the use of the deck and still be
able to use the basement entrance in the back
of the house without moving it to the side.
There is a Bilco door at the rear of the
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
MR. LEHNERT: And that's what kicked us
into the less than 75 feet from the bulkhead
and like I said, the lot coverage is basically
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
to get a decent size deck in the back of the
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What are the dimensions
of the deck, for the record?
MR. LEHNERT: The dimensions of the deck,
it's -- well it's 663 square feet and exact
dimensions of the deck, I don't have a smaller
copy here, it is approximately 20 by 32.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like your
incorporating, rather doing a cutout for the
Bilco door.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're incorporating --
are you incorporating the existing platform at
the top of the house of two of the treads or
are you building
MR. LEHNERT:
completely new.
it new?
We're building it
The existing deck is going to
be torn apart, but they don't want it at the
high level of the first floor, that's why
we're stepping down.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, understand. I
have a couple of questions here. You said the
deck was up. Currently there are some wood
posts with some sort of chicken wire there on
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
there enclosing an area, how much farther
seaward of that is this proposed deck? Do you
know?
MR. LEHNERT: The wood posts right now
are approximately -- I'm going to say 10 feet
landward of the proposed deck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's about 10
feet more?
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, about 10 feet more.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's the nature
of these high tides right now? Has any of the
water gone over the bulkhead at all?
MR. LEHNERT: No. We haven't had water
come over the bulkhead in awhile. In a good
northeasterly, it'll come up to the bulkhead
and as you know back there when it blows
northwest it takes the water out of the bay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, yup. Thank
you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think the side yards
are not really, they're sort of exactly where
the house is. So I don't really have too much
of an issue with that. The increased lot
coverage is not a very large 1.4 percent,
however, the -- I have a strange question here
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
which is -- well, first of all the property
begins to slope rather rapidly beyond where
those existing posts are which gives me some
degree of concern for runoff and the like into
the water. The other thing that is strange to
me is we have an LWRP letter of consistency,
which I don't get at all.
MR. LEHNERT: Okay, the bulkhead existed
previously. It was approved by the DEC. The
Trustees and that's -- Jerry's right, that's
what kicked that in.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 57 feet from the
bulkhead, that's what you're proposing is the
deck will be 57 feet from the bulkhead. How
is that --
MR. LEHNERT: Because the bulkhead exists
and it's legal, that's what made it conform
with the LWR?.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The same thing with
the DEC, are you going to get a letter of non
MR. LEHNERT: We have a letter of non-
jurisdiction from the DEC from the bulkhead
project.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. LEHNERT: We have an approval by the
Trustees and, like I said, because the
bulkhead's there, they've got their buffers;
it conforms.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I've gotta write this
down cause this is news to me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's usually been
the whole determining factor anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The bulkhead is
preexisting and, therefore, the setback is not
significant?
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. LEHNERT:
To them.
To them
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. LEHNERT:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. LEHNERT:
with it.
To them, it is to us.
Yes.
You're a different --
Right.
To the LWRP they don't berm
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. The depth of that
deck, let's take away the landing and steps,
the step down. So the depth of
width is about the width of the
MR. LEHNERT: The width is
the house.
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that deck, the
house.
the width of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. LEHNERT: The depth of the deck
taking away the steps, you're looking at about
15 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And would you have any
objection to reduced lot coverage and to
increase the bulkhead setback of setting that
back a little bit,
very wide deck.
MR. LEHNERT:
that 15-depth cause it's a
Urn- hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a big deck and we
do have an issue of the property sloping. It
will be a wooden deck, I presume.
MR, LEHNERT: Yes, it's going to be a
wood deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you feel about
alternate relief?
MR. LEHNERT: We wouldn't have -- if we
were allowed to have the steps to grade
outside of the deck, we wouldn't have a
problem cutting that back a few feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You want the steps to
come out beyond the deck --
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, right now the steps -
exactly.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right now they're
within.
MR. LEHNERT: If we get the steps
outside, we can bring the deck back and have
that as usable space.
carved
depth is
MR.
height.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
objection to that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And how many feet, well,
so what's the depth of the -- we got one, two,
we have four risers, treads rather, four
treads.
MR. LEHNERT: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What do you reckon that
are they 8-inch?
LEHNERT: Yes, they're eight inch
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. 16, so 32
inches. You can cut back a minimum three
feet.
MR. LEHNERT:
problem with that,
would go outside.
Yes. We wouldn't have a
like I said, if the steps
MEMBER WEISMAN: And let's see that would
give us a depth of approximately, you're
saying it was 20, so that would be 177
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Open to the sky,
right?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes, open to the sky.
Everything is open to the sky.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not concluding, you
know, this is not -- we have to vote and
deliberate, but I just wanted to explore it.
It could be that 17 is fine, it could be that
15 is going to be recommended.
MR. LEHNERT: That would lower the
overall coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would.
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It may reduce a variance
as a matter of fact.
MR. LEHNERT: It would reduce the
coverage variance. I mean you're not going to
substantially reduce the 57 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, but we can make
it 60 feet or something like that, you know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it's the
agreement situation based upon four people.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: I looking at some slightly
different data, comparative data, than Leslie
I know a couple of things. First of all, a
663-square-foot deck is a pretty sizeable
deck, especially when you realize that it is
very significant increase in the size of the
house and it also involves a reduction of the
waterside setback by one-quarter, or 24.8
percent, and that with the lot coverage it
does, from looking at those numbers is that
there is some kind of motivation to try to do
the sort of thing that Leslie was suggesting
that may lead to eliminate the need for a lot
coverage variance and also that would increase
the distance from the deck back.
So I would be certainly in favor of that
kind of a suggestion.
or is it sort of the
Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Can you comment on that
same as your comment to
Actually what just - can
you calculate for us and submit to the office
what the lot coverage would be of a 17-foot
depth with the steps or whatever and at 15
feet?
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, if I brought the edge
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
of it back to where the arc would start, you'd
lose about 3 feet off of that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Give us those two
figures, I would say.
MR. LEHNERT: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Just let us know.
We'll see where it lands in terms of reducing
to create a conforming lot coverage.
MR. LEHNERT: It would reduce it. Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: See what that would do.
Just calculate it for us and submit it in a
note.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you're going to
have to calculate the steps back in because
they're more than 30 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, they're more than
30 square feet so that would have to be
included in the lot coverage, but see what we
can do to help us tweak the proposal.
MR. LEHNERT: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, anybody
else want to be heard?
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and pending the request of
the new measurements and lot coverage from the
architect. I offer that as a resolution and
reserve decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING %6284 - BABS Corp.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to open
BABS. It's a prior hearing. I open it and I
request that it be adjourned without a date or
with a date?
BOARD ASST.: I just want to mention that
we did call the owner twice and asked him if
he would be able to submit the amended plans
for alternative relief that the Board
discussed at the previous meeting and he
thought that he would have it a week before
the meeting and we didn't receive it. I also
confirmed the time of the hearing today, so
I'm not sure what happened.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to make a
request that we adjourn it to October 29.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
HEARING #6308 - Barbara Shinn
"Request for Variances form Town Code
Chapter 277, Section 277-3B(1), based on the
Building Inspector's April 8, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval stating that the proposed wind
turbine is not meeting the code requirement
for a minimum distance form a property line,
total height of the small wind energy system
plus 10 feet, except that it shall be set back
at least 300 feet from a property line
bordering an existing residential structure.
The proposed location is shown 136.5 feet
measured easterly to other land identified as
CTM 1000-100-4-4; zero feet from the
applicant's agricultural land along the west,
and +/- 18 feet from the applicant's
agricultural land south of the wind turbine.
The applicant's properties are shown with an
area of 1.2 acres, or 22.49 acres with both
applicant's single-family dwelling and
agricultural lands. Location of Property:
2000 Oregon Road, Mattituck; CTM 1000-100-4-
part of 3 (now 3.1 and 3.2)."
Good afternoon.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Mr. Shinn would you
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
-- excuse me, Mr. Page would you kindly use
the mike if you're going to speak, state your
name for the record.
MR. PAGE: I'm David Page from Shinn
Vineyard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
What would you like to tell us?
MR. PAGE: First of all, I'd like to tell
you a little bit about myself and my wife. We
moved to Southold Town in 1996 after growing
up in the mid west and meeting in the Bay area
of California and falling in love there with
both each other and with food and wine.
BOARD ASST.: Could I ask you to speak a
little closer to the mike? I'm sorry, I'm not
hearing you.
MR. PAGE: Of course.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. PAGE: We started a career there both
of us in the restaurant industry. Myself
surrounded by local food and wine in
restaurants where I worked in San Francisco
and in 1989 the earthquake in San Francisco
displaced us. The restaurant industry went
into a tailspin and Barbara and I decided that
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
a move might be in our best interest.
So we moved from California to New York
City and soon after were able to scrape
together enough money to open a tiny little
restaurant in Greenwich Village, which we sold
after running for 15 years, this past year.
Our restaurant was well known for supporting
local wines from the North Fork. In fact, we
were the only restaurant in New York City to
sell local wines exclusively. So we developed
relationships pretty quickly with winemakers
here on the east end and were able to in 1998
after five years of hard work to purchase a
property on Oregon Road that was formerly the
Tuthill property.
It had been long in disrepair at that
point. The barns were falling down, the house
was virtually abandoned. There were a couple
of young men living in it who had cluttered
the walkways throughout the house and the
staircases with garbage. It was in pretty bad
shape. It needed a tremendous amount of work.
Over the past 10 years, we've revitalized the
property.
We started in 1999 by applying to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
Building Department here in Southold Town to
renovate two of the first buildings. At that
time, we applied for an application to
renovate agricultural buildings. My
conversation with then head of the Building
Department, Ed Forrester, I let him know
immediately that the plan was to, at some
point, open a winery and tasting room on the
site. He asked me whether or not that was
happening any time soon. I said, no we
haven't even planted the grapes yet. We're
not likely to be able to take our first
harvest for three to four years and we'll need
the winery, at that point, at the very least
and he said to me after I had written on the
application "site of future winery," I don't
think that that's the right use on that
application. So I'm going to cross that out,
and he did, and replaced the words future
winery, which I had put in with the words
"agricultural use".
We renovated the barns; saved them
virtually. We had to replace three of the
four corner posts of the (Inaudible) Winery.
There was a dirt floor in one of the sheds, we
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
had to put a wood floor in. We did a pretty
extensive job of revitalizing those buildings.
We planted our vineyard, we harvested our
first crop. We did not make wine at the site
until the 2006 vintage and at that time we
simply added equipment, started producing
wine. Opened a tasting room and continued to
do business. Later on, a barn that had been
occupied by a farmer up on Oregon Road, which
some of you probably know Butch Robert Rowle
(sic) had been cleaning grain and baking his
grain in one of our barns. He finally
retired.
We converted that barn then to barrel
storage and case storage and at the time of
that application to the Building Department to
do that renovation a site plan review process
was begun. We were told by the Building
Department that wineries needed to be site
planned and that ours was not. So we began
that process which led us to many, many dead
ends and a struggle that has taken us over
three years.
It finally led us to the New York State
Agriculture and Markets Commission asking them
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
to review our case because we felt, as has
been determined, that the Code in Southold
Town for -- well, for our particular situation
because we do this on a case by case
situation, but the Code as it relates to our
site plan review is unreasonably restrictive.
I have here a copy of that that I'd love
to show you guys. I think that this will help
clarify the letter that was sent from the
Planning Board to your Committee.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You mean the most
recent letter, Mr. Page?
MR. PAGE: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The most recent
letter?
MR. PAGE: Yes, from yesterday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a copy of
it.
MR. PAGE: Yeah, this is actually a
letter from the Ag and Markets Commissioner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I see. Okay.
MR. PAGE: It is the ruling. In the
letter that was sent to your committee it
states that no ruling had been made. If you
look at this in the first paragraph here, it
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
states that no ruling has been made. The
ruling has been in effect since June 1.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible)?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I suspect it's on
the site plan.
MR. PAGE: This is on the site plan
related to the Planning Department's letter
that you received.
BOARD ASST.:
I'm confused.
We have the application so
MR. PAGE: Yeah, I am too, quite frankly,
I am too by this incident. So everyone knows,
where we stand as it relates to the Planning
Board --
BOARD ASST.: The letter is dated June 1,
2009 for the record.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: For the record, I
would just like to make a point of
clarification. Our office has been in contact
with Ag and Markets and has confirmed that
there are additional steps to be taken and
that that letter is not a formal order or an
opinion of Ags and Markets. So --
MR. PAGE: It actually -- it actually is
and I think that (inaudible) you're mistaken,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
but it actually is and that's been confirmed
on several occasions.
All you need to do is read it and if you
don't mind, just because I think I've been
challenged slightly here about this letter,
what it says is that "based upon review and
investigation the Department of Ag And Markets
has concluded that the Town of Southold Zoning
Code and it's administration by the Town and
the Planning Board to require that Shinn
Vineyards, LLC submit a full site plan review,
which required the assistance of licensed
professionals, development of drainage
calculations, compliance with landscaping
requirements, and upgrading of interior roads
to be consistent with the Town's minimum road
requirements, unreasonable restricts the farm
operation in violation of AML 305A.
"The Department has further concluded
that the Town has not demonstrated that the
public health or safety is threatened by the
Shinn Vineyard LLC farm operations."
It goes on to say that "The Department
requests that the Town confirm within 30 days
of the date of this letter that it will not
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
150
impose such requirements and will otherwise
use a streamline site plan process. If steps
to comply are not taken, the Department may
take appropriate action to enforce the
provisions of ~LML 305."
I think it's very clear.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Shinn, I'm
going to be very frank with you, I have let
this go a little bit farther. You have
clearly stated your opinion. I am not here to
discuss that. I am here to discuss -- the
site plan is the Planning Board's purview.
Whatever this says, is fine. Okay, you must
understand, however, that we follow the Codes
of the Town of Southold.
MR. PAGE: I appreciate that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a Zoning
Board --
MR. PAGE: I appreciate that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay, however,
there is no doubt in my mind that there are
certain issues regarding your particular site
that have -- people are aware of, okay,
concerning the amount of activity that a
person can do on the site based upon what goes
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
on today and, of course, the permit that this
Board has granted you in reference to your Bed
and Breakfast. Alright, at this particular
time I would just like to leave that issue
aside and I would like to go onto the issue of
the wind turbine.
MR. PAGE: Okay, I appreciate that.
I thought that it would be important to
address the letter that was sent yesterday
since the Planning Board has raised this issue
and by receiving it yesterday, I felt that I
needed to at least speak to you about it. I'm
sure you can understand that.
As it relates to the issue of our wind
turbine, I would like to first give you guys
each a couple of things that show you what
we've been able to accomplish so far
(inaudible). These are letters from LIPA and
from the USDA showing how (inaudible). LIPA
has, Long Island Power Authority is putting up
a significant amount of money. They've done
several site visits and has concluded that
this is a viable project that they're
supporting with approximately 50 percent of
the funding. USDA through a grant program
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
will be providing 25 percent of the cost of
the project. In addition to those two
documents, it's I think important to know that
the federal government is also, through the
stimulus program, offering a 30 percent tax
credit on the remaining cost to us. In these
economic times, it's really important for
farmers like us to look for any opportunity
that we can to reduce our costs. Energy costs
being the highest cost that we have. I think
it's a great advantage to us to have the
support of these institutions as well as the
federal government.
The next thing
here is the support
the local community.
that I'd like to show you
that we have gotten from
There were, as you
probably know, many letters written both from
our Supervisor who stated in a letter to the
editor, which I can show you, on June 18th
that, if I can quote, this is from Supervisor
Russell, "I actually helped draft the
legislation that allows for wind energy
technologies to be located on working farms
and actually support David Page's application.
"I wrote a letter of support for his
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
grant application and made several phone calls
on his behalf." It goes on to say, "I hope
Mr. Page receives the approval he seeks and
agree that waiting for five months for his
case to be heard is frustrating and
unfortunate."
There are letters from a number of local
residents as well as there's a letter in here
from Joe Gregella (sic), who runs the Long
Island Farm Bureau, in support of our project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to get back
to the variance itself, sir.
MR. PAGE: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: I want to just ask, we
don't have copies of those letters in our
file. Do you want to submit those for the
record?
MR. PAGE: The letters to the editor?
BOARD ASST.: Ail the letters that you're
talking about and the --
MR. PAGE: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: But there are letters to
the editor and -- I thought that you meant
that there were more letters, too, that you
were going to --
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible)
BOARD ASST.:
take those.
I mean I can give
Whatever you have. Anything you want to
give, let me know.
MR. PAGE: This is related to the
setbacks, just so that you understand, sir.
All of this is related to the setbacks and
right now we have a Code that doesn't work for
farmers. Requiring a farmer to locate a wind
turbine 300 feet from a property line that
borders a residential structure in Southold
Town restricts 75 or 80 percent of farms in
Southold Town from being able to use this
technology. It doesn't have the benefit that
I can understand to anyone to do this. The
difference between 300 feet and in my case 137
feet, I don't know what it's accomplishing for
the Town as it relates to safety or any other
issues. The safety issues do come up and they
are very important to understand.
The Code, I think, very clearly takes
care of the safety issue when they require
wind turbines to follow the Building Code. In
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
other words, if I use inferior methods to put
a new roof on my barn, I'm not coming before
the ZBA and getting a variance for using those
inferior methods, right? (Inaudible) follow
the Code. We have to follow the Code here.
The Code is specifically in place to ensure
the safety of wind turbines.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, just some
clarification for the moment. The height of
the actual proposed wind turbine, we have two
different things. The application says 120
feet, there's a handwritten little note on
there that it's
us exactly what
wind turbine?
MR. PAGE:
possibly can.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
its efficiency.
80 feet. Can you please tell
height you're proposing this
Trying to get it as high as we
To obviously not deny
MR. PAGE: And that's why there's a
difference between what you see in the
application and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can't grant it
in that we have to know what the heighth is
you're requesting. Secondly, we have to know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
excuse me, Leslie, one second -- we have to
know where there is one so we can listen to
it, okay, because of the amount of drone that
these give off. Okay, so you gotta tell us --
MR. PAGE: Sir, but I think it's really
important for us not to enter any kind of
information that's not factual into the
record. So if you're concerned about noise, I
think we should talk about that specifically
and not tell us that because of the amount of
MEMBER SIMON: Let's go back to the
question. If you're not going to tell us --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we please just --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Whoa, whoa.
MR. PAGE: I'd love to address the
(inaudible), I think it's an important
question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to use the
mike though because we're taking this down.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the first question
really is just to clarify what you're actually
proposing. What is the height of the proposed
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
wind turbine that you would like to see on
your property?
MR. PAGE: What we have is 100 feet, 120
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's not 80, it's 120
feet.
MR. PAGE: That's right. As it was
initially applied for.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason why we
ask that question is the maximum height that
was granted in Mattituck so
live in Mattituck --
MR. PAGE: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
feet and that is antennas
far -- I happen to
Okay, is about 110
that are next to the
auto parts store. Alright, they vary from 110
to 114. We had requested that those be
lighted because of Mattituck Airport, okay,
apart from whatever FAA standards required at
that time and I'm just asking you that that's
the reason we need to know that information.
Okay.
MR. PAGE: I understand that. I think
the Code allows for 120 feet.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the question
is at 120 feet, if this Board was so inclined
to grant that height, we need to light it,
okay, because it needs to be a lit thing. We
have airplanes --
MR. PAGE: The Code doesn't require that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am telling you
that we will require it. It has nothing to do
with the Code, okay. I will require that.
But let's go into the noise issue.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just a minute, before we
do that because that could be a lengthy
technical discussion, I have some simpler I
think questions based on the application
before us precisely as it's being presented
that I think I would like to clear up.
First of all, I just want to make a
comment about your correct observation about
the discussion currently on the Town Board and
in Code Committee about potential future
improvements and greater flexibility in the
way in which alternate energy comes to the
Town. There is discussion, I know you were
there as I was, at the work session Tuesday of
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
changing the Code from 300 feet from a
property line to 300 feet to a residence;
however, it is important for the record to
reflect the fact that this Board is unable to
make legislation and to change the Code
regardless of how we might feel about its
inadequacy. All we can do, legally, is to
make decisions based upon the law as it
currently exists. So I think that's important
to point out.
Now, I'd like to ask you specifically
about the fact that we have, based on where
you're siting it, your proposed location at
the moment about 16 feet from your barn and 16
feet from where the grapes are, let's say. We
have a map that shows an 80-foot, an 87-foot,
and an 80-foot fall zone to areas that the
public comes into contact. One is your barn,
the other is the concrete patio. There is
some parking back there. There is a tent area
and so on and the proposed location is very
close to areas that the public has access to
and other structures. Can you please tell us
a little bit about how you'd like us to
consider that in terms of the safety of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
public?
MR. PAGE:
important for
Safety issues are very
structures and the Code requires
this turbine and the tower to follow the
uniform building code, which means it would be
able to withstand hurricane force winds,
Category 4. I think that that is important
here. We have to build them so that they're
safe. Whether it be, in other words if the
roof of my barns do not follow the uniform
building code and during one of those same
events right where you imagine that there's
some possibility that in some huge storm that
there might be people under a tent, which I
find hard to imagine that that's where they
would be in that circumstance, but the roof of
my building could blow off and hit the tent
and harm people. I guess my neighboring
farmer in his tractor could fall asleep on his
tractor and drive it into the tent. There are
circumstances that are beyond our capability
to legislate and that's why we have things
like uniform building code to protect the
public safety. To go beyond that, I'm not
sure why we would do that. Why there'd be any
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
necessity to do that, to go beyond the
requirements that are imposed by the State of
New York to protect the public from I'm not
sure what.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have 120-foot high
proposed wind turbine and in at least three
directions, you have grapes in the other
direction, we have two structures, a tent and
so on, parking, cars parked, people walking.
There is a consequence with potential --
MR. PAGE: Why then do we allow cell
towers to be put up right next to police
stations?
BOARD ASST.: We need to change the tape,
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
MR. PAGE: What I would do then is let me
hand out some information cause this turbine
is (inaudible).
(Inaudible) I
to why (inaudible)
safe.
don't really understand as
of something that's clearly
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just counter
with that one second, okay, if you don't mind.
We had a gentleman on this Board of whom we
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
still speak with great reverence by the name
of Serge Doyen from Fishers Island and he now
lives in Groton, Connecticut. He is
approximately 89 years old and he went through
the '38 hurricane. The wind velocity in the
'38 hurricane was measured at the airport in
Fishers Island at 193 miles an hour. Okay, as
you well know and I am not a superstitious
person, but I am going to knock on wood, okay,
that we haven't had a significant hurricane
here and we hope we don't. Okay, alright, but
most of those towers that were constructed or
have been constructed are between 125 and 150
mile an hour towers. Okay, in the towers are
monopoles. Monopoles seem to be a little bit
more effective because they break half way as
opposed to the tripod towers or the single
towers and so on and so forth. So that's the
reason we want
the purpose.
MR. PAGE:
to know this, alright, that's
I understand and as has been
pointed out and quite well that what we're
here to do is to follow the Code and if the
Code is already written for wind turbines on
farms so that they're allowed if they follow
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
the uniform building code and they're allowed
to go 120 feet, I'm not exactly sure why I'm
debating that with you folks. Maybe you could
help me --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. PAGE: -- with that. This debate
happened at public hearings. This debate
happened with the Code Committee. This debate
happened with the Energy Committee. This
debate happened. Now we're having it again
today and I'm trying to understand why we
might not be specifically talking about the
setbacks.
MEMBER SIMON: Let me try to answer that
briefly. One is that we're not here to decide
what the Code says, if that's all we wouldn't
exist. Secondly, it's not for us to decide
whether the Code is good or bad or what it is
like in other places. We are here to make a
decision on fairly narrow grounds as to
whether we can deviate from the Code as
written. We are not here to have a debate.
We are here to scrutinize as many facts as we
can -- as can be mustered so that we can
decide where are we going to allow some kind
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
of discretion with the Code. That is -- we
can interpret the Code, we're not going to
rewrite the Code. So I think it's possible to
narrow the discussion a little bit to what I
suggested.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well that was my --
MR. PAGE: I understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- next, my next point
was that based upon the application as applied
for with I calculated
what the notice said,
percent variance that
140 feet because that's
it's 136, it's a 54
you're requesting from
the code-required setback. Whether that's a
reasonable setback or not, that is the
percentage of variance that you are
requesting. That is very specific to us and
to this application. The law requires us to
grant the minimum variance possible in order
to -- if such variance is reasonable. If it's
a reasonable variance.
So the next question is if 54 or 55
percent is too large a variance, how do we
decrease that variance in terms of the
setback. Clearly, you've sited it adjacent to
the area that you've sold development rights
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
for to the Town, there's an easement there.
Some consideration may be given to whether or
not moving that setback a little bit farther
into that, which obviously we couldn't grant
that, that would have to be a permission of
land preservation, the entity that holds those
property rights, as to whether or not an --
this kind of structure would be appropriate.
I want to say one thing though, just
personally, I have -- this is not the Board
speaking, this is me speaking -- I am a very
strong proponent of alternate energy and this
is not what is in question here. Its time has
come. I know that there are many people who
feel that way and certainly I believe the Town
Board and Code Committee are working swiftly
to examine how we can be more flexible and how
we can encourage others, including on
residential properties which is also, as you
know, under discussion.
So that is a huge variance, that's just
the setback. That's a huge variance.
MR. PAGE: It's a huge percentage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, so can you talk to
us a little bit about that.
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MR. PAGE: We applied for a United States
Department of Agriculture grant which will
supply 25 percent of this funding and one of
the questions that was asked of us in the
application was whether or not the wind
turbine would be located on agriculturally
productive land. By checking no, my grant
goes through. By checking yes, it's located
on agriculturally productive land, our grant
doesn't go through. The US Department of
Agriculture does not want farmers to put wind
turbines on agriculturally productive land and
for good reason. We shouldn't be wasting our
productive capabilities (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Sorry, we have noises in
the room --
MR. PAGE: In order for us to place the
wind turbine in the vineyard property at a
distance of 300 feet or some other distance to
be determined, we would have to remove posts,
wires, vines that would be a very costly
proposition and negatively impact the ability
for us to do this in an economic way. It just
doesn't happen if we're taking out vines and
then providing access road through the
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
vineyard to the turbine wherever it would be
located, so that when maintenance happens a
crane could reach the turbine. So it's not
practical to do it. The USDA takes $25,000.00
away from us, the cost to us more than
quadruples by moving it out into the vineyard.
Its present location is safe, it's
efficient, it does the job it's intended to
do. It reduces the impact that our farm has
on CO2 emissions. It takes power off of the
grid. It's a great thing, alternative energy.
We need to be visionaries. On this Board, the
folks here, we need to see past some of these
old stereotypes about alternative energy and
understand how safe it is and understand the
importance of taking this step forward.
Southold Town has an incredible natural
resource with the ability to produce power
with wind. Today, on my property, I have a
Long Island Power Authority tower standing 80
feet in the air carrying those cables across
the farming community there. There's no power
in them, I don't know if you folks are aware
of that, but they've been abandoned by the
Long Island Power Authority. The danger of
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that is 100-fold, maybe 1000-fold of any kind
of danger of having wind turbines sited where
I'm siting it. It's not in view of anyone
from their home. It can't touch anyone else's
property if it were to in some crazy
circumstance fall. It's safe; it does what
it's supposed to do.
You know, what's really wonderful about
the possibility of wind here on the North Fork
is that one day we might be able to replace
those God-awful diesel engines that power
irrigation up and down the North Fork with
wind, which is quiet. Wind is quiet, wind
turbines make no more noise than the wind
blowing through the trees or the wind rustling
against the vineyard leaves. It's very, very
safe. We've got to get a grasp of this.
Wind turbines don't fall down any more
than the trees on my property might be
uprooted and slammed --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me ask you this --
MR. PAGE: -- against my house. I mean,
my goodness, you talk about an unsafe
situation, that's an unsafe situation. We
allow, you know, 80-foot trees to be planted
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next to properties and next to the area of my
property where there would be parking and
people and all of that, but for some reason
we're looking at this structure and trying to
find ways to make it the -- it's what's
bringing us the goods. It's a possible thing,
the way that they're mounted, the way that
they're built, it's a --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
more questions and --
MR. PAGE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- others need to do
what they have to do.
MR. PAGE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The turbine will
generate a certain amount of electricity,
obviously, that's the intent. You have a
bunch of different uses on your property at
the moment, your residence, your B & B, your -
MR. PAGE: We're two uses on our
property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so --
MR. PAGE: We have a single-family
dwelling that happens to have --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: With a B & B.
MR. PAGE: -- a Special Exception as a B
& B.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right,
Board that granted that.
I was on this
MR. PAGE: I consider that to be one use
and I consider my winery to be the second use.
There are two uses.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well,
tasting room, too.
room,
there's a
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a tasting room -
MR. PAGE: That's the same use, tasting
winery -- it's the same use.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
MR. PAGE: I would -- that's what I would
MEMBER WEISMAN:
services and so on for events
MR. PAGE: We don't have
on our property.
Potential catering
and --
catering service
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well there's --
we'll leave that for the moment. The bottom
line is that what I want to know is how you --
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where will that electricity that's generated,
what will it power?
MR. PAGE: Irrigation and for the
vineyard and the winery building itself. So
mainly, our biggest use is refrigeration
during the month of October, November and
December.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PAGE: We use refrigeration to cool
tanks of grapes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's for agricultural
use.
MR. PAGE: Absolutely, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I want the
record to show. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're done?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Where can
you show us one of these? Is there one on the
south shore erected now?
MR. PAGE: Southampton College, exact
same unit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, can you make
an accommodation for us to go over and see it?
MR. PAGE: I think that Joe would be able
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
to help you with that.
MR. FUCHS: Certainly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Joe Fuchs is from Green Logic
who would be the installer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great.
MR. PAGE: Joe has been onsite in
Southampton as the rest of us and --
BOARD ASST.: How do you spell his last
name, F-U?
MR. PAGE: F-U-C-H-S, Joe Fuchs.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have your
telephone number, Joe?
MR. FUCHS: Sure, I'll give you my card.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
The second issue is an engineering one.
In other words, if the Board was so interested
in granting this based upon this public
hearing or public hearings, what type of
reinforcement could be done so that these
fall-down areas or these areas that you have
sited on your map from the present or proposed
location of the turbine be placed on or near
the agricultural area actually on the
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agricultural area either through a wire-type
of setup or some other structural engineering
feat, okay, I don't mean that sarcastically,
so as to bolster that based upon either a
southwest wind or a particular wind that would
cause that type of problem, meaning having it
fall on your reserve property?
MR. PAGE: As opposed to fall where?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As opposed to
having it fall either on the parking lot or,
you know, on the concrete patio, on the wood
deck, or God forbid on your -- that beautiful
barn that you have there on the center of the
-- toward the rear of the property.
MR. PAGE: That's a really difficult
question. You're asking me to act as an
engineer --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I'm throwing it
out to you.
MR. PAGE: -- here and redesign something
that's already been designed to meet the Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, I mean
conceivably a northeast wind and God forbid it
blew down it would blow on your grapes. Okay,
it would fall down on your grape vineyard.
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MR. PAGE: I don't think it would,
actually.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But I mean if it
did --
MR. PAGE: I don't think that it would.
I don't think it's even possible, so I'm
having a hard time going through those steps.
Maybe, Joe, you can speak to this in the way
that these things are engineered and how they
might collapse and fall, but I don't think it
would do anything what you're -- it just is
not possible. So it's hard to go to that
place where -- it's unreasonable to go to that
place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Joe, you can use
this over here. That mike over there. Just
state your name for the record. This is being
recorded, of course, because it's transcribed.
MR. FUCHS: Joe Fuchs, Green Logic
Energy.
In terms of the way the system has been
engineered, as David mentioned earlier, it's
capable of handling hurricane force winds and
that's accomplished through a concrete base.
There are 31 cubic yards of concrete, many
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tons of concrete that this is anchored in and
that's really the basis for the strength of
the structure. The lattice tower provides
very little wind resistance and the turbine
itself, should the wind blow very hard, at 35
miles an hour it actually disables itself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At 35?
MR. FUCHS: At 35 miles an hour it turns
sideways to the wind so the resistance of the
wind against the turbine unit itself is
mitigated by winds higher than 35 miles an
hour. I think in the package that David
provided you this particular manufacturer is
on Oklahoma in the center of tornado alley and
there is a number of pictures of a
neighborhood where the neighborhood was
basically devastated. The one structure that
did stand is the turbine. So they're really
over engineered to be extremely safe and
stable.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you know, I
completely agree with you in the respect that
the wind will blow through the supporting
tower, alright, however, the question is as
was mentioned by the applicant that we have
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additional things that go across farms in
these high wind areas. We have uprooted
trees, we have things that fly, alright, which
could take the tower down. Okay, that's what
we're -- I'm conceivably concerned about.
I've been a fireman in Mattituck for
almost 42 years. Okay, we were part of the
tornado situation on Belmar Drive when it
physically picked up an entire house and
deposited some of it in New Suffolk, some of
it over on the Downs farm and portions of the
roof were found on what is presently the
Laurel Lakes Golf Course. What we're trying -
what I'm trying to do is ask you if you can
engineer a situation where this fall down
depending upon whatever direction this wind
goes, okay, will keep this particular device
off of that parking lot and those particular
structures which fall to the north or
northeast of this particular tower, this
proposed tower.
MR. PAGE: Is that a requirement that you
make for all structures?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
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MR. PAGE: You make the same requirement
for every house that's build in Southold Town?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not for every house
that's built, sir, but anything that's 120
feet high. I have to tell you nothing has
ever been, nothing, the last tower that we
granted was for East Marion Fire Department at
110 feet. Okay, and that is the last one and
that is a monopole which will break off, okay,
and hinge down approximately 50 percent.
Alright? This still is a tripod tower and
that's what I am looking for, alright, and
that's all I can tell you.
I am trying to mitigate some of these
issues for you, okay, to remember whatever
anticipatorily happens in this Code, okay,
happens in the future. We are dealing with
the Code as it exists today. I'm trying to
work with you at this particular point and do
the best I possibly can. I have been here a
long time. I have enjoyed this particular
job; I do the best I possibly can. I spend my
entire life trying to help people in doing
this, alright, and I assure you I'm not doing
it as a whim, I'm doing it as a suggestion to
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
you to give us some ability to look forward
and what we can do to assist you. Alright,
sometimes it's guide wires, sometimes it's
just flat old steel that holds these things
up. Sometimes it requires more individual
cement areas to support this in that
direction, but he is asking for something --
I'm referring to -- they are asking for
something that is adjacent to an area which is
well used in his vineyard, okay, and
structures which mean a lot to a lot of people
and could possibly contain people at certain
times.
We don't know what's going to happen in
the future, okay, we just don't know. We
can't tell you what 150 miles an hour is going
to do to the North Fork.
160 miles an hour did in
I was born in '47, okay.
We know what 155 and
1938. I wasn't here,
MR. PAGE: It's interesting to note that
my house was standing through that hurricane.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, but we
don't know what the wind direction was. Okay,
we don't how the wind direction changes in a
hurricane. These are all the issues, okay.
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MR. PAGE: I don't think that will ever
in this room or in any room or by invitation
of any engineer be able to mitigate every
circumstance that is possible.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not
mitigating every circumstance, sir.
MR. PAGE: But what we can do -- what we
can do is this situation is to meet the
standard of the New York State Uniform
Building Code and that's a pretty high
standard. We can also demonstrate, as we have
with the handouts that we presented, that
these wind turbines have withstood tornado
force winds.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. PAGE: We can also show you that
there is one standing at the Southampton
College. These turbines are all over the
country, they're all over the world in many
different situations where they're not here
and what we have here in Southold Town is a
natural resource that we need to use going
forward. If we are going to protect ourselves
from hurricanes, from the loss of power, we
are going to need to invest in alternate
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sources like wind and wind is our best asset.
It's the thing that I think can really get us
into the future. We have to let go of this
fear that there is this one in ten million
chance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Listen I don't think
that you're -- I don't think you need to argue
the merits of wind energy, certainly not to be
you don't.
MR. PAGE: What I'm arguing is not just
the merits of wind energy, but the merits of
this particular machine and its ability to
accomplish all that you're hoping for in terms
of its being able to withstand these
circumstances.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just make this
quite simple. I'm going to hold this Google
map up for you to look at. This is where our
variance kicks in. This is where you're
proposing along this line. This is where
you're proposing to site the turbine. This is
the property line that's in question where
it's 136 instead of 300 feet, okay, according
to the current Code. I just want to make sure
I'm accurate there. If you look at this
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residual property which is residentially used,
for the winery and so on, there isn't any
other -- forget the fall zone for a minute --
there isn't really any other location on this
area that would allow you to reduce the
percentage of the variance you're requesting
because this is the farthest point, maybe it
would be a few feet farther over here in the
front yard, but it's not allowed --
MR. PAGE: But it's not allowed because
of the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- because of the road.
So that is as far away as you can get it from
that property line.
MR. PAGE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because the first thing
I asked was is there a way to reduce the
variance you're requesting. In other words,
can we find something less than a 55 percent
variance, which is enormous. I mean this
Board just doesn't typically grant anything
like that,
else, it's
looking at
variance.
forget wind energy or anything
a structure on a property and we're
its setback and the percentage of
So I'm looking to see if there is
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any way to make it less of a variance. I
don't see how, perhaps you might, but I don't,
which is why we talked about the possibility
of locating it somewhere within the easement,
which I don't even know is possible.
It may not even make sense, but what I'm
trying to look at is the only thing --
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible) or from any --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- this Board can
address is this one variance. These are all
relevant questions because we need to examine
every possible fact that you want to present
in this particular application, but this is
the only thing we're ruling on really, that
and its safety relative because that's part of
our balancing test. When you're looking at
area variances, one of the things is health
and safety. That's one of the requirements.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to use the
mike.
BOARD ASST.: Please give your name,
first, thank you.
MS. SHINN: My name is Barbara Shinn.
I'll make this short and let David continue,
but there is no fallout shelter in our barn,
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in our winery or, obviously, in a tent
standing in the field and there is a zero-
percent chance that during an event where
there is wind speeds 190 miles an hour that
any of these buildings would be occupied. I'd
just like to say that.
MR. PAGE: Yeah,
I thank you, Barbara,
it's an important point.
for bringing this up.
The meteorological data that we have related
to hurricanes is going to evacuate this area.
It's certainly going to evacuate a tent or a
tasting room or a barn, you know, hours or
probably days before an event like this could
happen. So I'm not exactly sure -- and this
event, of course, is not the event of my tower
collapsing because the likelihood of that
happening even in a hurricane situation is
negligible.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
during those hurricanes,
During that --
I asked people where
they hid and they hid in their small
basements. They hid their sprout house
basements, which were even deeper than their
own basements and they hid in the basements
their barns.
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MR. PAGE: Right, they didn't hide under
tents, they didn't hide in barns without
basements.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But they didn't
have 120 towers next to them, okay, that could
crash down into those structures, okay, and
I'm only telling you. I am asking you for
that information, if you choose not to give it
to me, that's fine.
MR. PAGE: I think that we have provided
you with the information, clearly, we've
provided you with the information that makes
this tower safe. Okay, we're required to do
that under the Code. We're required to site
this tower so that it is safe. We're required
to construct it so that it is safe.
MEMBER SIMON: I want to focus it again.
David, I want to know what is it you're asking
us to do given what we're all talked about.
You've made a very strong case for the problem
you have. People have made a strong case for
the kinds of additional problems which people
worry about, but we're dealing with a Code and
ourselves and the limits of the power of this
Board not to go beyond its power.
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You can -- are you asking us to say grant
the variance, which really means essentially
give you a pass because you're not giving us
reasons to state -- the reasons you're citing
are not the kinds of reasons that we could
give in justification of supporting your
conclusion which would stand up in court. We
don't have the discretion to say because of
your very strong feelings and concern and even
if they're right, that's enough for us to say
okay, David and Barbara you can have what you
want because you deserve it. We can't do
that.
What do you want us to do? Just grant
the variance, is that it? What can we say if
we say yes to justify granting you the
variance?
MR. PAGE: That there is no circumstance
in which the construction of this turbine
causes any harm to any neighboring property.
I'm sorry? And we have no other place to put
it, this is all we've got. We're a farm, you
know, farming operations in New York State are
protected as you know by Ag and Markets Law.
Maybe the guidelines should be looked at. Ag
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and Markets has clearly, in cases in upstate
New York, specifically, granted farms like my
own the right to put these types of
structures.
Actually the State of New York Ag and
Markets Commission doesn't even call them
structures, they're farm equipment. I think
that's an important distinction that might
help you in this decision.
farm equipment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
This is simply
not according to
our Town Code. According to Ag and Markets,
yes, but we have to go by our Town Code, which
refers to these as structures.
MR. PAGE: You have to go by the Town
Code until the State of New York were to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Change
MR. PAGE: -- rule that
restrictive. If you look at
it.
the Town Code is
the guidelines
that are set for establishing Code in
municipalities the guidelines suggest that
municipalities refer to wind turbines as Ag
equipment.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
what happens here.
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Well, this may well be
Certainly the timing is
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odd in the sense that I wish you were before
us maybe six months hence, because perhaps
maybe things would have been changed by then.
MR. PAGE: The only thing that spurred
any kind of change in the local Code was my
application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well --
MR. PAGE: Okay, which was rejected,
which then put me in front of you folks. The
Town Code, there was nothing that was on the
horizon to be considered about changing the
Town Code until my application came through.
Six months from now --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the fact of the
matter is --
MR. PAGE: The timing would have always
been the same is I guess my point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: well, the fact of the
matter is that all of this is up -- is being
discussed at the moment at the Code Committee
including residential properties. Here is our
situation as a Zoning Board, right here and
now, which is that we're faced with a decision
that says Shinn Vineyards is only able to site
a proposed wind turbine at approximately 136
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feet from a
when the Code
MR. PAGE:
understand --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
second.
residential property line
says 300, right now.
What you also need to
adjacent
MR. PAGE: Go ahead, sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is -- what you've
just stated accurately, I believe, is that you
have on other viable 1Qcation that could do
things any better on your property in terms of
reducing that variance. Here is the dilemma.
Not every property is suitable for a 53
percent variance. In fact, I don't remember
almost anything that this Board has granted
that offers that kind of a variance. We would
have to have enormously compelling reasons and
there are six, you probably know them, it's
very easy to look them up. There are six
reasons, Town laws that are state mandated
that represent the balancing test that we have
to fill in the blanks for and that's what
Michael was saying.
We have to -- we -- this will be a
precedent, okay, this particular application,
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and we have to be able to justify every single
one of those criteria not all to the same
extent, but we have to in the end conclude
that the benefit to the applicant out weighs
any particular detriment to the health, safety
and so on of the public. Okay, because that's
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MR. PAGE: We know through this --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So here's -- that's the
problem.
MR. PAGE: -- discussion that there is no
safety issue here. We know that based on the
way that the Town Code is written. We know
that there is no safety issue at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One of the criteria says
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MR. PAGE: I haven't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: One of the most
important criteria is that is the variance to
be granted substantial? That one criteria
alone can make or break an application. Is
this a 5-percent variance?
have a problem with it.
MR. PAGE: Right.
We don't usually
MEMBER WEISMAN: 10 percent, depending on
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what it is, how many variances and so on. A
50-something percent variance is far more
substantial than what this Board generally is
able to grant.
MR. PAGE: In this particular case the
reason that it is not substantial is because
the distance from the turbine to any
residential property or actually any
residential structure is hundreds of feet
beyond the 300-foot setback. It's -- this is
Oregon Road. The danger has been mitigated by
the fact that it's Oregon Road. There's
nothing out there. There's nowhere for this
thing to fall that could present any safety
issue for anyone at all and that's on top of
the evidence that we've presented that shows
quite clearly that they don't fall down. They
just simply don't fall down. There is no
evidence at all on the other side to suggest
that they do fall down. All of that is just
our imaginations run amok. They don't fall
down.
These structures are built to stand and
withstand hurricane force winds, they don't
fall down and on top of that what we have in
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our particular situation, which I think
creates an atmosphere where this 53 percent
variance can be granted, is the fact that the
residential structures are so far away from --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Except for your
own. Except for your own structures.
MR. PAGE: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're not out of
the fall down zone. Okay, your structures --
MR. PAGE: They're not required to be,
sir, by the Town Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They are required
by me to be.
MR. PAGE: I don't understand that. I
thought that we were here to address the Code
as it stands and not -- that's what I don't
understand. If the Code says that it's the
neighboring property that we're protecting by
the setback it has nothing -- and the Code
doesn't ask that with anything --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible)
property, I can't discriminate against whose
property it's supposed to be --
MR. PAGE: But the Code is written in
such a way that I'm allowed to put these
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things close to my structures and there's a
need to do it as well, sir. There's a need to
do it. There's a need to have wind turbines
sited as close to structures as possible and
the reason that there's a need for that and if
you'll look at wind turbines as they are built
anywhere, they're always next to the barn,
they're always next to the farmhouse. There's
a reason for it, the reason is that we have to
run cable from the turbine to the meter and if
we have to run cable hundreds of feet, as this
present Code is written, establishes that we
have to run cable that's gigantic. We get
voltage loss. The equipment doesn't function
properly.
So it's really important that they're
next to buildings and that's where they're
always sited. You'll -- anything that you
look at in the documentation that we've
provided will show you that they are always
sited next to structures and they're sited
next to structures in area where you might
think that would be crazy because it's the
tornado corridor in Oklahoma or places such as
that.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay, in partly response
to Jerry and partly to you, is the main reason
why you're allowed to build closer to your own
home than you are to somebody else's home has
to do with the fact that the law doesn't --
allows people to impose risks on themselves,
but not on other people. So that's a --
that's a simple historical policy reason, but
the question is what may not matter is
entirely how many feet it is from the
neighbors' house, you mentioned structure, or
other neighbors' property is not all of the
members all of the time are inside the
resident's house. So it is a risk to a
neighbor if it is that many feet from the
neighbors' property. The law does not say 300
feet from a neighbor's house, it says 300 feet
from a neighbor's property and there may be a
gymnasium out there where children are playing
MR. PAGE: We don't have that --
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is the
safety issue is not entirely -- is it would
handle the apparent, which may seem an
inconsistency on your own home and somebody
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else's even if it was just on yourself and
(inaudible) --
MR. PAGE: I understand that. I
understand that, but
bordering properties
are wide open spaces.
it's clear that the
are farm properties that
MEMBER SIMON: They're residential
properties, that's the problem. If it were
unoccupied farmland, it would not be an issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think we need to
move on and we appreciate your testimony,
we'll take it into consideration.
I think the gentleman in the back in the
blue shirt would like to say a couple of
things and since we know you Mr. Bill, we do
still need to have you state your name.
MR. EDWARDS: My name is William Pearson
Edwards of Mattituck. I have a great deal of
interest in the subject of alternative energy
and I've lately joined the Board of the NFEC,
which also has a great interest, but I'm not
here in anyway relative to the NFEC. I'm here
first of all --
BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing you, I'm
sorry.
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MR. EDWARDS:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. EDWARDS:
You can't hear me?
No.
That's not a complaint
anybody usually makes.
BOARD ASST.: The noise in the room is
echoing, sorry.
MR. EDWARDS: Well, my name is still Bill
Edwards.
I was on the Board and I was very
involved in the passage of this legislation
and so I've followed this hearing with some
degree of special interest. The variance as I
understand it relates to the 300-foot
requirement, which was, I'll be
straightforward with you, was necessary to get
we agreed to it those of us who were in favor
of legislation for wind turbines in order to
pass the legislation. One member of the Board
wanted that in there and we wanted Southold to
be at the cutting edge and we always felt like
we would go back or whatever a future Board
would go back and readdress the legislation
and I'm here actually simply to bear witness
that I sat on August 4th in a meeting of the
Code Committee where four of the six members
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
of the Town Board were present. Now I
recognize this doesn't legally matter, but it
is significant that the four members of the
Town Board who were present in the room were
all agreeable to doing away with the 300-foot
setback requirement and letting it simply be
the -- I believe the height of the tower plus
10 feet would be the proposed setback
requirement.
Now I recognize that this Board only can
deal with existing legislation, it can't deal
with what might come in the future and Jerry
you pointed that out repeatedly and you're
absolutely correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know who
drummed that into my head? We had this
wonderful Town Attorney from 1955 to 1988 by
the name of -- the gentleman from Greenport
and he said don't talk to me about future
legislation.
MR. EDWARDS: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was it.
MR. EDWARDS: However, the reason
speaking on behalf of this legislation,
right,
I'm
you're
it is future legislation and it may
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very well be resolved in a very short time,
depending on how the Board finally settles on
this legislation, but was to be informative to
this Board as to how the legislation evolved.
I do think though that it would be
reasonable, in my opinion, for this Board, I
recognize you have to look at percentage of
variance, I mean it's part of the process, but
in this case I think that is deceptive because
it really is pretty much one place on the
property where there the person making the
appeal can place the property and it is
insignificant that the next door neighbor
whose setback it represents is Marty Sidor who
has not voiced an opinion pro or con on this
project and I would emphasize hasn't voiced an
opinion against it, and knowing the way things
work I would assume that means that Marty and
Carol have no problem with it, but I think
it's not -- I think it's not unreasonable to
issue a variance in this case and the Town
Board I know is concerned with the fact that
so far since the legislation was passed, which
is two years ago, there hasn't been a wind
turbine constructed in Town and I think the
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300-foot setback, I know the 300-foot setback
is part of the issue. So I would just say
that I don't think that the percentage is
quite that important.
With respect to the safety issue, I just
want to mention we did discuss that at great
length when we worked on the legislation and
knowing that more and more agriculture out
here is going to involve consumers onsite,
it's not simply a field out there, it's a
field where there may be a tasting room, there
maybe a farm stand, there could be a lot of
different things and the members of the Town
Board at that point still did hold to the
opinion that if there were a problem with the
structure and it fell down it would be falling
down on the person's own property, the
setback. Everybody was agreed the important
setback was relative to the next door
neighbor's property, ie., you can't have it,
if it did fall it should fall on your own
property, but we do --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's say I buy
that, okay, except for the fact that we have
granted a special permit to these very nice
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people for the purposes of operating an
activity and so that further compounds that
whole issue that you -- the decision you just
arrived at.
MR. EDWARDS: Right and I'm only
mentioning -- I understand that and I'm only
mentioning because it was discussed at great
length when the legislation was written and
the Town Board decided to leave it out. So
I've said what I came to say, which was that I
don't think the variance is as great as the
percentage would tend to suggest and I know
that the Town Board, because I saw it, is
seriously contemplating doing away with the
300-foot requirement at which point I guess
they could build the thing as of right. So
that's why I came cause I
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
wrap this up.
do believe --
Yeah, I want to
MR. PAGE: I understand. I didn't
understand the part about the -- two things.
The first about granting us a special
exception or how that has anything to do with
this particular setback variance for the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, special
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exception for the special permit, but you will
admit to me as you stand before me that the
wind direction of fall, if it fell to the
northeast, would take out a portion of the
barn that you're referring to that Butch
(inaudible) used to rent. Okay, it may reach
-- it's definitely going to reach your
dynamite barn, okay,
out or it would take
of all those patrons
and it's going to take
out any one of those cars
that you would have in
that stone parking lot.
MR. PAGE: No, I can't at all agree.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You cannot agree
with that?
MR. PAGE: No because it can't fall down.
It's not going to happen.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But if it did fall
down it would do that?
MR. PAGE: These hypotheticals get, you
know, a --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me ask another
question.
MR. PAGE: Someone's car that's parked
there could also be taken out by the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And a portion of
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the tent maybe also.
MR. PAGE: A lot of things could happen,
there's no question that a lot of things that
could happen, but I think that the thing that
would remain standing before, you know, a car
is more likely to blow into the building. My
trees are more likely -- everything on my
property is more likely to cause damage to my
property. The last thing to be affected
because of the way it's
to be the wind turbine.
The very last thing.
constructed is going
That's just a fact.
201
don't think that you're talking to the right
Board.
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MEMBER SIMON: That might be a very good
point to make to the Town Board or to the
Legislature mainly that there should not be
safety rules for structures that cannot fall
down. It may be a terrific idea, it's not for
us to make it.
MR. PAGE: It's built so that it --
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I meant, if
it's built well enough, then there shouldn't
be any setback requirements in the name of
safety. That may be a very good idea. I
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MR. PAGE: I think that these setback
requirements --
MEMBER SIMON: They may go for that.
MR. PAGE: These setback requirements,
quite frankly, I don't know that they are
particular to the fall zone. As a matter of
fact, I think that maybe there's some
confusion about that. The setback
requirement, the reasons I believe that it
should be height of the tower plus 10 feet,
has nothing to do with the tower falling down.
What's more important, what's important cause
we know that these are structurally sound, is
that the turbine blades don't cast shadows on
other people's houses. That's what we don't
want and that's why we have the setback the
way that it is because the blades are up
there. It's not that they're going to fall
down. We have established Code that requires
them to be built so that they can't. Not that
anything is possible, but we're protected.
We're protected. We've protected the public
against that happening.
What we have to make sure that we do is
protect the public against shadows. We don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
want that in your windows.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you don't mind --
MR. PAGE: This turbine cannot possibly
do that because of the nature of where it's
sited.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you don't mind if the
shadow hits your property if it's in, you
know, if it affects your home or your winery,
that's okay?
MR. PAGE: Well, I know that the way that
the sun -- in other words I don't want to do
it to your property, my neighbor's property
for five minutes of the day. That's not fair
to your property, but to my property --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, it will cast a
longer shadow as the sun sets.
MR. PAGE: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Your tower will cast a
longer shadow than the tower itself. So what
you're saying there is incorrect.
MR. PAGE: You need to protect against is
that shadow in somebody's window. We've
protected that by the way that we've located
it and in my house I know that it's going to
be (inaudible) that's my decision.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me ask another
question. We frequently work interagency, we
have to. You know, the Zoning Board and the
Planning Board often, very often have
applications that both Boards are reviewing
and we work back and forth with comments and,
you know, how we time things.
Now, we have a letter that you also have
indicating that the Planning Board is
currently working with you on a site plan
review because some of the parking area that's
near where the proposed site is is actually on
development rights land and they're looking at
the possibility of some little bit of
reorganizing of circulation and parking on
your property and what they've requested is
that your options and their options during
this site plan review not be tied in or be
limited by or limited by any decision that
this Board might make and --
MR. PAGE: There's no possibility of
parking other than that particular location.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well -- no, no. I'm not
saying that. I'm only saying that what we
have is a request saying that the site plan
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review process is taking place before the
Planning Board who would like us to allow that
process to go forward.
MR. PAGE: We've been working for three
years (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Before the -- before a
definite decision is made on the location of a
turbine. I'm just bringing that up because
that's what they're asking us to do.
MR. PAGE: I know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And, of course, it's
your neighbor Marry Sidor who wrote the
letter, who's the Chair of the Planning Board.
MR. PAGE: No, Marty didn't write it.
(Inaudible) wrote it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
it Heather?
MEMBER SIMON:
He didn't write it. Was
George wrote it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
wrote it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: George
okay, obviously for conflict
Alright. So it came
George Solomon
Solomon wrote it,
of interest.
from the Planning Board.
I just want, you know, I want to let you all
know that we are aware of that request and
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that we have to take that into consideration,
I think, in our deliberation.
MR. PAGE: I understand. I understand
the Planning Board (inaudible) the Town
Attorney's office has rejected the ruling in
front of you from the State of New York.
Quite
York
frankly, I don't think the State of New
(inaudible) enforce their ruling leaving
us in a position of a
Ail that we're asking
Southold in site plan
streamline fashion as
lengthy deliberation.
from the Town of
is to do it in a
is required by the State
of New York and as has been determined by the
State of New York. This process is close to
being resolved. Melissa Spiro and my
attorney, Charles Cuddy, (inaudible) parking
are getting close, but as it relates to
drainage that's being resolved as we speak by
Ellen Connell from Cornell that on our
property we've done drainage calculations in
the past who can verify that there are no
drainage issues on our property. The Town is
very well aware of that, but the Town puts up
a big (inaudible) that creates a lengthy
deliberation and all of this could have been
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resolved years ago as it relates to our site
plan had the Town simply adopted the
guidelines set forth by Ag and Markets related
to site planning farm operations.
This is a farm operation, we should not
be subject to the same (inaudible) that
(inaudible). So we've gone through in this
process several times during this, we've gone
through (inaudible) Planning Board. It's a
long and difficult process that we have
endured.
In the meantime, we are in the position
today to take advantage of grant money and new
funding from LIPA. This money goes away
quickly. LIPA funds, they have I think
$800,000.00 left to fund wind projects on Long
Island. We were smart enough, focused enough
(inaudible) application (inaudible) that we
have been accepted (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay --
MR. PAGE: But the thing (inaudible)
grant money, that money is gone forever. Once
that money is gone it's gone. So if we get
held up by the Planning Board, the Zoning
Board, etc., etc. over these issues that are
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
such -- that are minutia over something that
is necessary for us to sustain ourselves as
farmers here, we're going to be out to the
tune of $8-10,000.00 per year (inaudible)
because I don't have $100,000.00 to put this
thing up. I can't afford $100,000.00 to put
up a wind turbine, but with the support of
LIPA, with the support of the USDA and with
the additional support of the tax credits this
is going to cost us less than $15,000.00. I
have $15,000.00 for a project like this and
this project, if you folks can make it happen
that this can go through, this will open eyes
for the rest of Southold Town. This is going
to be a beautiful new way to see the future in
the Town as it relates to alternative energy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the only
thing left is to discuss with Mr. Fuchs a
specific date to look at the Southampton
College turbine tower and generator. I'm
looking at the Saturday after Labor Day, which
is the 12tn, are you available the 127
MR. FUCHS: I'm away that weekend, but I
will get somebody to show you (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Say like 10-
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
ish. We can meet him in the parking lot.
Where is this? It's on top of the hill,
right, over by the --
MR. FUCHS: It's right off 27. If you
turn down the entrance to the college --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FUCHS: -- there's a guard gate. The
guard gate -- I've been there a few times and
I've asked the guard, can I go see the tower
and they let you go right through.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you talking
about the main gate going up to the original -
on Montauk Highway?
MR. FUCHS: Well, the entrance isn't on
Montauk Highway --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's not, it's
on the (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's near the railroad
tracks (inaudible).
MR. FUCHS: Go right over the railroad
tracks and it'll be on the right hand side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a gate. It's a
gate there.
MR. FUCHS: You can see the tower
(inaudible), follow the road to the tower.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Right. Okay.
yes. I was there.
I was there twice.
I don't necessarily ask people when I go
there. I try and get a feel for what the
situation is; I have to be honest with you.
MR. FUCHS: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I've been there
and, of course, I met the both of you when we
did the barn situation a couple of years ago
and we were looking at the barn for a
particular reason. I forgot what the reason
was, after you had finished it. Was there
something in the barn that you required a
variance for?
MR. PAGE: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. PAGE: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that what it
was?
MR. PAGE: (inaudible) at little bit
further away from Marty's property, but there
was still a setback issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, because I met
both of you in the barn that time and I was
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
telling you how beautiful it was.
MR. PAGE: You were on the Board
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Other than Ken, I
think we all have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I've been on the
Board since February 2, 1980.
MR. PAGE: {Inaudible) February 2?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, or
thereabouts.
Is there any reason, Mr. Fuchs, to have
you present at this location? We can move it
to the following weekend, the 19th, if that is
the case or thereabouts.
MR. FUCHS: There's no reason. I would
imagine what you want to accomplish is to see
the structure and (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, here's the
problem.
MR. FUCHS: That's not anything that I
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the problem
that we had before and that was no wind at
all. It was my understanding that you can
generate a noise by these units, you can
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
actually place electricity on them to have
them run without wind; is that correct?
MR. FUCHS: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not at all. Okay,
the original one that we toured was the one
that's sitting in the middle of the farm over
there by Edwards Avenue.
MR. FUCHS: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's ironic that
Bill Edwards left in mentioning that
situation. And the day that we went there
there was absolutely no wind. So they
generated about an 11 or 12 miles an hour by
electricity. Okay. So conceivably that
normally doesn't happen where this tower --
they get a pretty good wind off the bay.
MR. FUCHS: Yes. Again, if it's a very
quiet day the turbine will need about a 5 mile
an hour sustained wind.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FUCHS: (Inaudible).
MR. PAGE: This handout that I gave you
(inaudible) community in California that got
involved with a project there on a vineyard
and asked that the applicant have a sound
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
engineer come in and measure the decibels of a
turbine. So this gives you some numbers that
are quite interesting to see exactly how quiet
the turbine is at 20 feet I think its only
about 5 decibels above the (inaudible) noise.
The same turbine, the same size, the same
height. What's really curious about it is as
you get up to 120 feet, it reverses. The
ambient noise is actually registering more
decibels than the turbine. So, actually, what
they're dong is they're running the decibels
with the machine on and then turning it off.
So you can see that these machines are very
quiet (inaudible) 160 or 170 feet from the
location of this (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask you one
more question. Since some of us are retired,
they probably could go on their own and just
listen to it themselves. So maybe it's not
necessary to actually make a permanent
appointment and let everybody go over on their
own assuming that the -- we could indicate to
these people in security that we are a -- you
know, we're coming from the Town of Southold
that we're coming to see the turbine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
MR. FUCHS: (Inaudible). Actually
videotape it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so let's
leave it at that point and if we run into any
problems we'll get ahold of you when you come
back. We appreciate that.
MR. FUCHS: Fair enough.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Have a good day
everybody.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing and reserving
decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
{OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 27, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
?ugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
September 8, 2009
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