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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-07/30/2009 Hearing1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Southold Town Hall Southold, New York July 30, 2009 9:57 a.m. Board Members Present: GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney LUCILLE CAPPABIANCA - Stenographer Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 INDEX OF HEARINGS Hearing: Page: Diana Delucia #6296 3-8 FIDCO for Walter C. Flower III and James And Diane Baker %6297 9-15 A. Connolly and L. Vicarelli %6301 16-19 Diane Manson and Amory Millard #6298 20-47 Jason Taggart #6295 48-83 Paul T. Betancourt %6294 84-118 William E. Hamilton #6299 119-149 Joseph and Joanna Chernushka #6302 150-167 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: order. Motion? BOARD MEMBER: So moved. BOARD MEMBER: Second. Call meeting to HEARING #6296 - Diana Delucia MEMBER SCHNEIDER: "Request for Variances under Section 280- 124, based on the Building Inspector's February 10, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed deck addition to the dwelling, which new construction will have setbacks from the front property line at less than the code-required minimum of 35 feet and from the rear property line at less than 35 feet, at 4573 Wickham Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 107-4-5 (adjacent to Long Creek)." CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who is representing? Could you use the mike please and state your name? MS. DELUCIA: Diana Delucia. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Good morning, Diana. MS. DELUCIA: Good morning. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm looking at your plot plan here. I just have a question about Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 the steps. Will the steps to the deck, the proposed deck, be within the outlined proposed deck area or will they be additional to that? MS. DELUCIA: The front steps that you see going up to the house now will be on the, I guess what's considered the front of the house where it says 10/3 feet there. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes. MS. DELUCIA: And there's a dash line, that's where the steps would be to gain access to the deck. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay and so those steps will be within that -- MS. DELUCIA: Within that footprint that we have. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's my question, okay and then will there be any other set of steps MS. DELUCIA: back. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: that boundary? anywhere else? There will be steps in the Okay, again within MS. DELUCIA: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: One comment on the survey there's something that says framed Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 screen wall. MS. DELUCIA: Yes. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: indicated correctly. MS. DELUCIA: This -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What is MS. DELUCIA: Why is it? That seems to not be that? into a kind of a Okay, I had the distinct pleasure of meeting your neighbor who is a person I know very well, Mr. Dickerson. MS. DELUCIA: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And he had told me that he had spoken to you and that he had no objection to application at all. I may have further questions. I'll go on to Michael. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 I guess years later made storage shed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What is that? MS. DELUCIA: It's actually a storage shed. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: A storage shed that's attached to the house? MS. DELUCIA: Yeah. I guess this was the original very old survey and it was designated as framed or FR screen wall. It was actually 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 6 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the deck is 39 inches above grade with the railing; is that correct, as proposed? MS. DELUCIA: You know what, I -- if it's on the drawing then that's said. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, what the engineer it's on the drawing. The Suffolk County Soil and Water recommends that there be a French drain underneath your deck. MS. DELUCIA: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: As proposed. MS. DELUCIA: That's in my blueprints for the deck. We had when we met with the DEC that was one of the ideas that we came up with to help mitigate the runoff -- MEMBER WEISMAN: existing stormwater Right. MS. DELUCIA: -- which is a severe problem there now, so this is actually going to solve a lot of the current issues by putting a drain, the gutters and the French drains. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 7 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: So that is going to be discharged into a drywell or into this French drain? MS. DELUCIA: Into a drywell. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll repeat my question. The roof runoff will be discharged through gutters and leaders into a drywell? MS. DELUCIA: Yes, correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: On the property and underneath the deck which will be pervious I presume, you know, it'll have slats so the water can drain directly down into the drain? MS. DELUCIA: Into the French drains, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Alright, no further questions. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of that and that we were all okay with that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any further questions, but don't leave until we close the hearing, please. Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6297 - Flower and Baker MEMBER SIMON: "Request for Variance under Section 280- 14, based on the Building Inspector's March 30, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed re-division of land as a result of a proposed lot line change, which will create a lot size at less than 120,000 square feet in this R-120 Residential Zone District. Location of Properties: SCTM 1000-10-5-8.3, 1000-10-5-9 and part of 12.9, Private Road off East End Road, Oriental Avenue, Peninsula Road, Fishers Island, New York." An address that makes no sense to anybody but people who live there, I guess. Mr. Ham would you? MR. HAM: Stephen Ham, 38 Southampton for the applicant. something for Linda here. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. submitted a copy of the Nugent Street, I have Mr. Ham DEC permit issued on - MR. HAM: For the proposed right-of-way, at the end of the day just -- I'll get to the conclusion of all of this. This is currently Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 a FIDCO building lot 44-7 on the map of Fisher's Island Development Corporation so it could sustain a house and so forth. At the end of the day, it will have a driveway on it and that's all. I'll explain it a little bit using FIDCO, they're all FIDCO lots in block 44. Lots 3, 4, and 5 are owned by Walter Flower. Lot 6 by James and Diane Baker. Lot 7 by FIDCO, which also owns a little road between lot 4 and lot 7. The proposal is Walter Flower, the owner of 3, 4, and 5 will purchase lot 7 and that little road spur from FIDCO. He will retain the northerly part of 44-7 and the road which will merge with his site, which are lots 3, 4, and 5. He will convey a strip about 7,000 square feet to the Bakers who own lot 6. They will construct a driveway which has been approved by the DEC and the Trustees because there are wetlands across the road. So there are approvals in place for that. The southerly portion of lot 7, the one for which we're asking for a variance, will be donated to the Henry Ferguson Museum which, as you know, is the repository for open space on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Fisher's Island. The Museum will in turn impose its usual declaration of covenants which prohibit development. So as I say at the end of the day what's now a building site will have a driveway on it MEMBER WEISMAN: TNRs the site. and that's all. will be applied to MR. HAM: At the time of the donation the museum automatically puts those on. So if you'd like to make that a condition to any plan, that's fine. The Planning Board is aware of this as well and they have -- I saw their report and they're in support of this and as I said the environmental issues for the driveway have already been addressed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that why the dotted line shows Conservation Easement? MR. HAM: Yes. Flower -- the way -- we did it this way so we didn't have to do a subdivision. We would have been creating two lots out of 44-7. So what we did was, I mean, it's part of the contract for all this, if Flower will impose a conservation easement to the Museum and what he is retaining and what will be merged. He will allow -- be allowed PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 to do a little landscaping in the road where it's his driveway now and that's actually the whole point of this. He doesn't want Baker to use his driveway so he's arranging for Baker to have an alternate access. The dotted line will be a conservation easement area. So most of what -- in the first place, it's going to be merged with his property. In the second place, it will -- most of it will be he can't tamper with it anyway. So most of this land will be open space either by virtue of the conservation easement or by the declaration of restrictions which the Museum will impose on the southerly portion which they will acquire title to. The only part that will be developed in a sense is this proposed drive right through the middle of it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is Baker using that driveway now? MR. HAM: No, it's not -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not that proposed driveway, no. MR. HAM: No. They have vacant land. This came up when the Bakers purchased the PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 building site lot 44-6. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. MR. HAM: Mr. Flower has, I guess, invested a good bit of money in his entryway and he's using the FIDCO road exclusively anyway. So it sort of made sense. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER SIMON: It appears that the lawyers have it covered pretty much. Are you representing the client on this, on the transfer as well? MR. HAM: Yeah, well I'm -- he's from New Orleans and he has counsel for that. MEMBER SIMON: Go ahead. MR. HAM: I've represented Baker, essentially, but I'm doing the application on behalf of both. MEMBER SIMON: I haven't been able to think of anything that the lawyers haven't thought of as far as questions about this; therefore, I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, this is unbelievable. Two applications now and no questions? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 Flower has -- separate 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 up. MEMBER SIMON: I'm warming up. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, you're warming MEMBER WEISMAN: No, the record will now reflect the transfer of who's getting what where. Ail we need is the paper trail for this all to be clear. It looks like a win/win situation and no additional construction, more open space. MR. HAM: the estate of ago. We had a driveway situation in Glen (inaudible) a few years MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I remember that one. So, as long as, as I said, as long as it's now clear as to what is actually being proposed and why and seeing how this will prevent another building site on this lot, I have no objection or questions. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in writing the decision, we are talking about the entire conservation easement over a land area of 40,720 square feet; is that correct? MR. HAM: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. HAM: No, you're only dealing with the size of the southerly which is 61,280 square feet. That's -- we're here to grant a variance to allow a 61,280 square foot lot to be created because the rest of the land is being merged -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's right. MR. HAM: -- with one lot or another. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's a creation of a nonconforming lot -- MR. HAM: So if you'd like to grant that variance subject to the imposition of declarations -- of the usual declarations imposed by the Museum, that's fine. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: like to speak in favor or application? Okay, anybody else against this Seeing no hands, closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll make a motion reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6301 - Arthur J. Connolly and Lorraine Vicarelli MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's January 21, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed additions and alterations to the existing single-family dwelling, which new construction will be less than the code- required minimum of 15 feet on a single side yard, on this 32,478+/- square foot parcel, located at 3505 Wickham Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 1000-107-9-9 (adjacent to the shoreline of Long Creek.)" MR. CONNOLLY: the owner. MEMBER SIMON: MR. CONNOLLY: owner. MEMBER SIMON: Hi, I'm Arthur Connolly, Sorry? I'm Arthur Connolly, the What would you like to tell us about this that's not contained in the documents? MR. CONNOLLY: We're renovating our current house which was built, we believe, in the late 1800s. It has a existing brick Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 foundation and one of the side pieces that sticks out is, you know, 14 feet from the side and we would like to align the back porch so we have squared it off and the only way we could do that without -- the only way we can align it is within the 14 feet cause we don't want to have to break off anything with regards to the existing structure. MEMBER SIMON: So if you are -- this porch would be lengthened by what 5 feet or so? MR. CONNOLLY: 1 foot. MEMBER SIMON: The porch is 1 foot but the extension variance you're asking for, of the porch -- MR. CONNOLLY: It's a 12-foot -- it'll be 12-foot the nonconformance. MEMBER SIMON: Right 12-foot in length and 1 foot'in width. MR. CONNOLLY: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: So in other words if it weren't for that 1 foot you wouldn't be here today. MR. CONNOLLY: That's correct. MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on that. It's a little bit beyond the deminimus standard, but it's pretty minimal. MR. CONNOLLY: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I agree. I did want to ask you one question when we went out to -- we all went individually to inspect the site as we always do, and I just don't see it in the file here, I assume this is a -- that you have a certificate of occupancy for this preexisting nonconforming, what's called here a one-story framed garage and workshop? It's close to the water. MR. CONNOLLY: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: However, it's clearly a dwelling. MR. CONNOLLY: Yes, we have a CO. MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a CO on that. Okay, cause I know there are lots of them around and I just wanted the record to reflect that that's perfectly intact. Yeah, that's just a 1 foot variance on the side yard and I think the elevations you've submitted look very nice. I think it will be a nice improvement. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. CONNOLLY: Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No questions from me either. Let's see if anybody else has any. Is there anybody else like to speak in favor or against this application? Seeing no hands, we hope to have a decision for you shortly. I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2O ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6298 - Diane Mason And Amory Millard MEMBER WEISMAN: "Location of Property: 495 Maple Lane, Orient; CTM 17-2-3.1. Requests for Variances under Sections 280-13C and 280-122, based on an application for a building permit to construct additions and alterations to an existing accessory building (currently a garage), and proposing to convert the existing garage, with or without the proposed additions, to an art studio or habitable space, which is not a permitted use in accessory buildings. The Building Inspector's January 26, 2009 amended Notice of Disapproval reasons for disapproving the application are: {1) the existing accessory garage is located in a front yard as per Variance %5462 issued 2/12/2004; under ZBA Zoning Code Interpretation %5039 (Walz), the proposed additions and alterations will constitute an increase in the degree of nonconformance, and (2) the proposed layout of the building appears to create habitable PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 space, which is not permitted in accessory buildings." BOARD ASST.: He's submitting three green cards here. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. BOARD ASST.: Five green cards, correction and the one that you didn't get back, did you get an envelope back or you -- Okay, so there's a possibility they never got it. Alright, since we weren't aware of it until today we'll have to research it tomorrow and I'll ask the Board for a 10-day period so we can look into it for you. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state your name for the record, sir? MR. HILL: My name is Ronny Hill and I'm with RLH Land Planning Services representing Manson and Millard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, when I first looked at the application I was a little confused upon site inspection that it kept referring to a garage when there were literally no garage doors. So I finally figured it out. I just want to make sure I PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have it right. Thanks to Linda, I requested and received information from the original Building Department on the original application. MR. HILL: Correct, because we had an outstanding building permit which allowed us to go forward to the extent for what you saw. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that we did and it would appear that Reeves granted -- applied for in 2004 variance for the garage, which was built under #5462 in the front yard. You have three front yards, obviously. There was a certificate of occupancy issued on a non-habitable unheated accessory two-car garage with an unfinished attic. Secondly, in 2007 the property was sold to Millard, right, and then in 2008 building permit #34124 permitted alterations to the garage, which replaced and removed all of the windows and doors. That's where the garage doors went. MR. HILL: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Now I understand why it's additions and alterations to an existing garage. Phew. I looked at it and said that's PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 not a garage. Alright, the Notice of Now, I get the chain of events. so currently January 26, 2009 Disapproval is amended from August 4, applicant the garage to secondly, the bath and that, 2008 because number one, the now proposes a change of use from an artist's studio and, alterations incorporate a full therefore, makes it a habitable space. A half-bath is permitted in an accessory structure, by Code, but not a full bath and there's a slop sink also proposed as I understand it. Okay, that's what I've managed to glean out of it so please continue to tell us more, Ron. MR. HILL: can add outside There's not very much that I of what you said, except that BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing you, sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Bring it around to your side, either side, whichever is more convenient for you. MR. HILL: Are you suggesting that I talk a little too softly or -- BOARD ASST.: Yes. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. HILL: I see. Good morning. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. MR. HILL: There's not very much more than I can say outside of what Member Weisman has said. It is, in fact, an accessory structure that my clients are requesting that it be converted into a habitable space in order to use it as a paint and artist's studio. I -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So let me ask you the question, excuse me for interrupting. What's the purpose of the full bath? MR. HILL: My client, Diana Manson, has a particular medical condition. Besides needing a slop sink there because of the paints and arts studio, she also has a medical condition that doesn't allow her to be very far from the bathroom and the feeling is that if she has and plans to use this space as she plans to as a artist's studio, paint studio, for her to try and get back to the house to use the bathroom could lead to some very embarrassing situations for her. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me just carry on. The fact is you can incorporate a half- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 bath. It could have a toilet and sink. The thing that is making this habitable space as per Code is the shower. Now, what circumstances would require a shower? MR. HILL: I would like to ask, if you don't mind, please, that to be addressed by Ms. Diane Manson. MEMBER WEISMAN: Of. course not. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me be a little more direct about this, okay? We had an application before us on Main Road in Orient, and I'm not comparing these applications in anyway -- MR. HILL: I understand. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- for a blind painter. Okay, he required a bathroom upstairs and a bathroom downstairs. I don't honestly think that this person ever inhabited this structure for the purposes of painting anything. It all of a sudden became a separate cottage, okay, and was rented and has -- and is presently on the market as a separate cottage and that is we're asking these questions. not speaking for the Board. the reason why We are -- I'm I am extremely Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 concerned about these things. This has no -- this is no objection, no presupposition to any one of you two lovely ladies sitting before us, okay, and I'm saying that quite honestly. MR. HILL: Let me just correct you though, Jerry. Diana Manson is one of the principles in the structure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. HILL: Her partner, Amory Millard, is not here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's fine. There's another lady here that appears to be a friend or whatever the case may be. MR. HILL: Right, but what I'd like to do is to address the full bathroom and I think it's a very valid question and I understand it, but rather than me explain it I think it cannot be explained any better than by Diana Manson herself. MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course, sure. MR. HILL: Because I just would not want to explain it. So if you'll allow me, may I ask her to come up and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course, of course. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. HILL: Diana. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to use the microphone. If you would state your name for the record, please? MS. MANSON: Diana Manson. I have diverticulitis and I guess those of us who are of a certain age, you know, are used to the middle-age medicine and I have a scar that I would be happy to show you -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, necessary. MS. MANSON: operations which that's not -- from the second of two I've had in the last six years and the problem that I have is occasionally uncontrollable urge to defecate and, in fact, yesterday -- as well as being an epileptic. So these diseases combine to be extraordinarily humiliating in any form of public life. Yesterday, as I was walking the dog I actually defecated in my jeans outside the apartment building in New York. So for me to actually, to spend any viable time in a separate location is to have a bathroom. Full bath doesn't seriously in any way concern me. It's somewhere where I PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 can use a toilet and clean myself up is imperative to me in order to be able to work. I've recently gone on a part-time contract with my company, which allows me to spend more time out here every given week, in fact, three days a week before counting the weekend, and I want to be able to take full advantage of that. I work as the executive vice president of Creative, an animation company and so I'm constantly at work and I'm about to start work on Peter Rabbit and Eric Carlsbury who'll be Caterpillar. I want spend a lot of time surrounded by nature rather than stacked on top of people in Manhattan. MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you just hold on, stay there for a moment. You have no objection to the MS. MANSON: mean that's what removal of the shower? It would be helpful, yes, I I'm saying. It's very hard to clean up in a basement after the particular problem. We have absolutely no intentions of renting the space out, which we call the garage mahal, when we bought the property it was this astonishingly huge structure which turns out to be simply perfect for my purposes Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 of, you know, story boarding and everything else that I do. MEMBER WEISMAN: And what kind of artwork does your partner do? MS. MANSON: I do the artwork, which is part of the Australia (inaudible) that I do. I just needed to be here in order to do my professional work, but what I do is, don't take any offense, based on Aboriginal dot painting, which is a combination of -- BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing you, can you speak into the mike? MS. MANSON: I'm sorry. Aboriginal painting from Australia is a sort of acrylic on canvass board. travel gathering nature. It's a combination of and mapping and looking at MEMBER WEISMAN: I know it well. I have a (inaudible) now. So you'll be the only person who'll be doing artwork in that -- MS. MANSON: I will be the only person. MEMBER WEISMAN: You will be the only person. Do you plan to heat it? To insulate it? MS. MANSON: I would hope that I'll be Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 able to work during the winter because the winters for somebody born in New Guinea are the hardest months out here. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right now, of course, all the rafters are exposed. MS. MANSON: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: But I'm assuming if you want to use it year-round you've plans to do some sort of -- MR. HILL: If I could just address that. The intention behind the application initially when we submitted it was, in fact, for year- round use. As Ms. Manson has said, she plans to spend quite a bit more time out here than she has and it's imperative that besides being able to accommodate her medical condition that she at least be able to have the lighting and the ability to clean up the use of the paints that she plans to use in her work and to be able to work even year-round in the wintertime and, yes, it would be a heated space. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, the variance that granted this garage actually could not -- would not likely have been granted now. It isn't the front yard Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 location, but our accessory structure law, as you know, permits a maximum 660-square-foot size structure and that was developed because, in fact, so many properties are way over lot coverage and were proposed really huge accessory structures that in some cases were comparable to the principle dwelling and so this law as developed to make sure that accessory structures were, in fact, subordinate to the principle size that we didn't over develop inappropriately on properties, which everyone ought to be in favor of because it has very adverse impacts. This one is now preexisting nonconforming so the size is not something we're gonna deal with. I think the front yard location was approved previously. I think primarily we're concerned about uses because this is really a use variance. This habitable space in an accessory structure is not currently permitted by Code, as you know. So we're really looking at a use variance, which, you know, kind of requires slightly different criteria than on an area variance. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. HILL: Yes, I understand. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me stop at this point. MEMBER SIMON: I have some suggestions. First of all, I find the situation and the facts rather compelling and I am concerned as Jerry has raised the problems of the use, the future use 10 years, 20 years from now of the place if there were another owner, but I think there ought to be some ways around this problem. First of all, I think the idea that the difference between habitable and non- habitable depends entirely and solely on whether it's a full bath or a half-bath seems to be rather bizarre. The usual test, the traditional test, of course, had to do with cooking and facilities and so forth like that in the matter of habitability. So there is some leeway in this. Some conditions could very well be written into a decision as I understand it, which could guarantee the kind of use that is being applied for. Secondly, another possibility which I think is worth exploring, is it occurred to me that something like this PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 could be covered under the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is a lever for getting a bit of leeway if accommodations are made specifically to deal with the condition, which again it's protected by Federal law. MR. HILL: Yes, I understand. MEMBER SIMON: So what I'm saying is I don't have the details of this, but I think it's something -- MEMBER WEISMAN: because ADA only is MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER SIMON: Michael it isn't only applied to public -- Public. Okay. -- organizations. Right, so in order to get analogy, but I'm speaking -- but the idea of the need for the heat and other features, which would make it more adaptable at some later time by somebody to a residence maybe could be designated by some consideration of conditions either partial or limited heating. For example, it's a pretty good sized building and I understand the need to make it usable in relatively small areas for the purposes for which you intended. So I was wondering if you would be willing to consider as part of this Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 some suggestions as to how this might be easier perhaps to steer a way around the problem of precedence and future misuse of the property. Clearly, I'm sympathetic. MR. HILL: I understand. MEMBER SIMON: So I'm just throwing this out as some suggestions. Leslie is right about the ADA. MR. HILL: and initially I In understanding your issue heard Jerry's comment with respect to an existing structure in Orient that is currently on the market and up for sale given that they received a variance from the ZBA. I would only suggest, to address your point, Michael, I believe my clients would be agreeable to such conditions of use for the property because it still would allow Ms. Manson and it would accommodate her in her use of the structure as well as being able to facilitate her medical condition. I also would like to just say that there -- the Board did, in some cases, back last year accommodate a similar case, which was ZBA %6108 -- BOARD ASST.: 6107 PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. HILL: %6108, it was called Kinga/Crary, C-R-A-R-Y. MEMBER SIMON: Right, right. MR. HILL: And I believe that my clients are no asking for anymore than was granted to that same type of application. It was pretty much a similar situation where multi-facet in that it was requested for a paint studio. It was a heated space, habitable space, but they also had the additional issue of setbacks and so forth for that particular property. In this particular case, which is similar but yet different, my clients are just no more asking for the use of that and I think I would have to talk to them about this, but I think I did go there with them regarding this, prior to this hearing. As an option have as conditions to the ZBA approval and determination in their favor, have as conditions that upon such time as when the use is no longer necessary for my clients that they would be willing to forego and to revert the structure back to its garage -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: original state as a And -- and if title Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 changes. MEMBER SIMON: Right (inaudible). MR. HILL: Yes, because at that point the use is granted -- I would, my thing is that the use would be granted to Manson and Millard and, yes, upon such case that the title changes it should no longer be granted that you granted the ZBA determination in her favor and based on her circumstances not the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, what I had just written down in my notes, the covenants and restrictions or conditions that would upon transfer of property -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think because of the size of the structure we need to deal with covenants, okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. HILL: We do, we need to do it I agree and that's why I bring up that particular case -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's go back to that case alright. We're talking about a building that is one-third this size, that's number one. Okay. Number two, we're talking about a property that is much smaller than Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 this one, okay. MR. HILL: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We were talking about a piece of property, a building that we finally got, basically, got onto the property. I mean it was literally on the line. So the Board was willing to acco~nodate this person. It is a situation where it was a reconstruction of an existing old, old, old probably 1920s, 1930s garage, MEMBER WEISMAN: It also Preservation. okay. needed Landmark CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, so along with Landmarks we were pretty happy that the building was being rehabilitated for the specific use and there were some concerns in reference to skylights and issues that violated Landmarks, but apart from that situation, okay, what we have here is a building that's three times the size. What we have here is a couple of members of this Board sitting in on that 2004 hearing and hearing the neighbors from the prior owner saying, I don't know why you're building this thing so big and why you're placing it here. Okay? Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 The placement was not a concern, it was the size of the building and the purpose of it. MR. HILL: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These prior owners told us, told me, okay, that they needed it for storage purposes for boats, okay, and for lawn equipment and for gardening equipment. Alright, we now have that entire reverse because I believe that there's a degree of habitability, okay. The primary degree of habitability when you use the word primary means the ultimate and that is a home. Okay and then you step back into degrees of habitability. The degree of habitability is the ability to occupy the structure for hobby or professional purposes, alright, but never to sleep in it, never to utilize it except between the normal hours that a person would do so and that could be from 4 in the morning until 10:00 at night if they wanted to depending upon when they felt the urge that they wanted to do what they wanted to do. It would be very similar to a person that was restoring cars or restoring anything that they wanted or restoring paintings, basically the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 same situation. MR. HILL: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So here I think the typical question I need to ask is why do you need something 1200 square feet, can you utilize something in reference to the heating and insulating it and practical purpose of approximately half of that and use the rest of it for storage. I don't care if it's insulated. I just mean, does the entire building have to be heated and air conditioning and all the rest of it? You're more or less conforming to the 660 square feet that you were alluding to when you first -- which is what the Code requires. MR. HILL: Right, right. I would have to go back and ask because I can't address that at this very moment. The person acting as the project manager for this proposed project is here and she's just informed me that what they're doing is installing an air conditioning unit that will make the space habitable, heating and air conditioning, but that the way that it's being installed, I don't know if this makes a PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 difference to you or if it answers your question to any degree, but she's saying that based on the way that this is installed that it will be easy to remove to facilitate the reconverting of that to a garage. MEMBER WEISMAN: duct work for the -- accessory structure back You're not putting in MR. HILL: No, no duct work. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just exposed ducts CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She's gotta use the mike. Just come up and use the mike. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, come to the mike. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your name for the record. MS. LIPEDES: Hi, my name is Rae Lipedes. I'm project manager for Joel Daly Home Improvement and we're working on this project and we tried to design this so that it would be a temporary area and our HVAC guy has a unit that hangs on the wall and no ductwork. It heats and cools most of the unit, most of the area. I don't know that it would be that comfortable on a really cold day, you know, Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 but it should keep it habitable most of the time and when you're done heating and cooling that building you just unplug it and take it out. So we felt that was the best answer for their concerns. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's an air conditioner that runs forward and reverse basically? MS. LIPEDES: Exactly, it heats and it cools. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. So I think the topical issue here is do we need 1200 square feet or 1200-plus square feet and that's the issue that we need to pose to you. If you need to speak to your client then we can reconvene this in 20 minutes, okay? That's my opinion and that's the question I'd like to have answered, okay? I don't -- I have no objection to using the building as storage in the back or in the front or the side or whatever they want to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Or in the loft. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- or in the loft. We have no, I mean, store anything you want, but the issue is do you need to utilize this Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 entire building, okay, and that's the question. You know we offer -- MR. HILL: I would like to confer with them because given the -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine. MR. HILL: Excuse me for just a minute. MS. MANSON: I think the fact that Mr. Reeves has boats and, you know, his hobbies were the maintenance of the house and building things, my professional work allows me to be in another place that's far more congenial and that my hobby is completely different is the thing about the space that the damp in the garage otherwise my instinct would be to be in the real garage rather than the garage-mahal because the real garage is just near two toilets and it's attached to the house. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's attached to the house, right. MS. MANSON: So this garage-mahal, this astonishing structure is there, but you know the damp in the garage precludes working there and so after a very full life, this is my third continent and my third career, I have plenty of stuff in storage that I can get from PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 (Inaudible) in London and bring out here and put wherever we decide. Just the space that I want to work in, the work that I do is for preschoolers and I want it to be done in a large inviting environment and this seemed to me to be the perfect solution after the damp issue. So, you know, for me it's -- if you came to see my offices you would actually see a sand pit down from the office because we're such juvenile (inaudible) to stay in touch with out little audience and I'm looking for that kind of -- to replicate a place that {inaudible) for myself to work in most effectively. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the issue is you need that square footage and the issue is that you will consider, I'm sorry, we may consider covenants and restrictions with a reverter that at any time you don't utilize it it will go back to its original state and that is unheated, unoccupied. Okay, based upon those (inaudible) of habitability that I'm referring to. MEMBER WEISMAN: We may also because it's quite possible to also remove showers if you PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 put in a kind of a self-contained unit an inexpensive unit that's not fully tiled and so on, you know, one of these fiberglass things that can be removed as well because a half- bath is permitted in an accessory structure. MR. HILL: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: So in the spirit of attempting to accommodate you as a property owner for your work and medical condition, if we can work out a situation, frankly I'd love to be able to say yeah, subdivide that space, leave the rest raw, finish off part. That's pretty difficult to do in a space that's configured that way with such, you know, high ceilings and windows and so on. MR. HILL: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's almost wasteful too to not -- if you're gonna do it to enjoy the -- but what we're trying to do is grant the least variance possible, which is what we're supposed to be doing. So keep in mind that the shower would be removed and the heating and cooling would be removed and so on and it would expire with transfer of property. Perhaps this is a situation, since it's Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 preexisting nonconforming, by size and has previously received a variance -- MR. HILL: Thank you for that, because that's (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: -- then perhaps we can work out something that is going to be responsible to all parties. MR. HILL: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's see if anybody else would like to speak. MR. HILL: I'd just like to finally say I think that's exactly why I mentioned the conditions as they were laid out specifically on that ZBA case #6108. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, I understand that, but remember it's an entirely different MR. HILL: I understand that, but I'm talking about just the fact of the conditions and even part of those conditions mentions the HVAC system being removed and the reverting back to an accessory structure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. HILL: And it's that instance that I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I applaud you because it's important to bring the applicant with you, okay, so we do appreciate your information. You can't -- we really apologize for asking such pointed questions, but those are all part of the aspect of gathering information that we need. MR. HILL: situation where you her medical could. Well, for me it was a I couldn't begin to express condition better than she to CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, of course. MR. HILL: And for me to do that, I just couldn't and I would feel that I'd violated her privacy. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it wasn't appropriate anyway. MR. HILL: I'm sorry? MEMBER WEISMAN: It wasn't appropriate for (inaudible) -- MR. HILL: No, and I just couldn't, but on the other hand she could. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so let's see if anybody else would like to speak for or Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 against this. Seeing no hands, any further questions from Board Members? Since there's no further questions I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6295 - Jason Taggart MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Waiver to unmerge 13,750 square feet of area (CTM 1000-78-3-28) from the remaining 12,650 square feet of area (CTM 78-3-29), based on the Building Inspector's March 18, 2009 Notice of Disapproval which states the subject lot merged with the adjacent lot pursuant to Code Section 280-10. Location of Property: 1145 Nokomis Road and Wabasso Street, Southold." It's a front to back merger, what's the street on the other side? That's -- MS. MOORE: Nokomis. MEMBER SIMON: -- Hiawatha, MRS. MOORE: Yeah, Wabasso. the improved house -- MEMBER SIMON: Right. MRS. MOORE: -- and then behind, but caddy-corner not directly back to back, is the vacant lot on Wabasso. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, right. Okay, Ms. Moore would you like to tell us about this? is it? Nokomis has Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 MRS. MOORE: Yes. Good morning. Patricia Moore, 51020 Main Road, Southold. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 I'm the attorney for the applicant. Since this originally was presented to you in 2004 there has been a growth of the Taggart family. I'd like to introduce everyone. You have Jason Taggart with his wife, then you have their lovely daughters, Hannah and Lindsey, and grandfather, Tom Taggart. They are all in the neighborhood. Tom Taggart also lives in the surrounding community. This presents an interesting case because when the Code was changed or actually going backwards back when the original law was put in the books this was the first case that the courts determined that economic hardship was an issue to be addressed. Prior to that time, economic hardship had not really been an issue that had been used as a basis for a denial and in the courts economic hardship the only time that that word appears is in the use variance context and what happened is that this case, and I say thanks Jason for this, because after the point of the original Taggart case that went to the Appellate Division, it changed the standard and at that point pretty much all Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5O ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 waiver mergers were impossible to achieve. As a result of that case, through grassroots activity and the recognition that when that law was interpreted as economic hardship in that way that the original intent behind the waiver of merger law was not to deprive everyone of being able to get a waiver of merger. The Town Board acted and adopted the new version of the waiver of merger law in 2008. We're now before the Board under the new criteria, the new standards and what I found in reviewing the transcripts of the record of the original case, which is case #5389, was that there were many documents that were submitted and I would ask that they be incorporated into your file, but four documents that I have a copy just for your file records because it is all Town records at this point. The first thing I'd like to put on the record is a letter that Doug Penny prepared that outlined the request for the waiver of merger and, quite frankly, Doug Penny is a very good, fine attorney did really a very PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 good job and, unfortunately, it was the interpretation of the economic hardship I think was the killer, was the nail in the coffin, otherwise he did a very good job in presenting all of the standards and I've just put that on the record for you. As part of that application, which I'll also submit here, is a tax map where Doug Penny and the applicant submitted tax maps showing what vacant lots there were and the rest being improved and it does analysis. He provides in that analysis the percentage of improved lots as to the character of the area and with respect to the standard, which is the way we would recognize a lot that is comparable in size to a majority of the improved lots in the neighborhood. The documentation that was presented in that case, Judge Emerson came to the conclusion in her decision that the ensuing lot would be consistent with the size of the lots in the neighborhood. So in that decision there was a conclusion that in fact this lot does conform with the size of the neighborhood and I provided in my application a copy of the filed PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 map, pardon me, it's an old Wickham Map of Laughing Waters and it shows the development of that subdivision and how the lots were created at that time and the significant percentage of them are the same size as this parcel and others were jury-rigged over the years and pieces were taken from one or another lot and reconfigured, but for the most part the lots are consistently developed and the setbacks of the homes are all consistent. It's a well-established older neighborhood that was developed in the 1950s and the 1970s. So the standard with respect to the comparable size I think certainly has been met both in the Emerson decision and in the history that was presented on the record. The waiver would recognize the lot as vacant and historically been treated and maintained as separate and independent residential lots since the date of the original creation. This property was originally acquired by Mr. Kwosnik who is Mr. Taggart's grandfather. When he was in the nursing home, the property was transferred to protect it from being attached through Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Medicaid and Kwoznik and Cosenza -- Cosenza was the daughter, there was a family member there. There was a transfer for purposes of the immediate action while he was in the nursing home and then with the intention at the nursing home it was quite clear that Mr. Kwoznik wanted Jason to have this property. He wanted to have his grandson living in the same neighborhood where he had been living and had the family, several family members are living in the same subdivision. So the property was ultimately transferred to Jason for consideration. There was money exchanged so that Mr. Kwoznik would have money to pay for his care in the nursing home through the Medicaid limitations. The existing house is centered on the property and the vacant parcel remains vacant. It was -- It's grass and there are 22-foot Eastern Cedar trees that surround the entire perimeter of the vacant lot. Jason was about his daughter's age when those trees were planted and now they are That would provide, in a for any house that's put quite large, 22 feet. sense, a screening there and certainly Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 we'd have no objection if, as part of the waiver, the screening remain because it's lovely and it enhances the property. The third standard is proposed waiver recognition will not create an adverse impact on the physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. That, too, in the original application Doug Penny did a fine job, he provided from Suffolk Environmental Consulting an environmental analysis that made a determination of the sanitary that was conforming. In fact, they got Health Department, this property does have Health Department approval. The vacant lot has Health Department approval and there are no environmental issues, wetlands, nothing that impact or adversely impact the development of this property. So I would refer you back to Suffolk Environmental, the letter dated August 29, 2003, which again Emerson did not find the issue as a relevant issue here. It was really Emerson was addressing the fact that the economic hardship could not be satisfied. Finally, in that application the neighborhood that was in place in 2004 Mr. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Taggart had a petition from his neighbors, all the property owners that were surrounding that were all in favor of his application, not that it's really relevant. Neighbors don't have a veto power, but at the time it was -- there was support. It's a close-knit community, many families are interrelated. There are multiple family members living in this community and again it was a supportive exhibit. So I want to put it into your record as well. If you have questions -- MEMBER SIMON: Yes, I -- MRS. MOORE: Go ahead. MEMBER SIMON: I only have questions regarding one aspect perhaps because more included in the file. of this and this is documents need to be Namely, I'm interested in the connection between Mr. Kwoznik and Mr. Cosenza or the Cosenza family, the intermediate -- MRS. MOORE: Oh. MEMBER SIMON: Because we don't have anything on that accept they're just named and I don't know -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Yes, actually I will put that on the record. I actually did a will for Mr. -- Mrs. Cosenza. MEMBER SIMON: Was Mrs. Cosenza a member of the family? MRS. MOORE: Yes. Sister of Kwoznik and why don't you come and put it on the record so they can be -- MR. TAGGART: Mr. Kwoznik's sister -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for the record. MR. TAGGART: Oh, Jason Taggart. My grandfather, his sister was Mrs. Cosenza and she took over with the house because of a Power of Attorney when he went into the nursing home. MEMBER SIMON: Did she live in the house? MR. TAGGART: No. MRS. MOORE: It was a Power of Attorney for purposes of transfer of the properties. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, now I guess it would have helped a lot if some of what I just heard was in the application because from what I could read and I read it several times, Ms. Cosenza could have been a complete stranger PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 not known to anybody in the neighborhood. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER SIMON: And since one of the requirements, which you mention under the waiver of merger, is that it be continuously in the family. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER SIMON: So I would like to see some documentation, never the less, as maybe a condition after the hearing is closed perhaps. MRS. MOORE: Well, we can provide an heirship affidavit if you'd like -- MEMBER SIMON: Because I don't know what the periods of time were, was it for example (inaudible) I hope these will be answered in the documents. Was this a rental property for a period of time or was it, whether it was one month or three years or ten years, I would like to know that. I think we all would like to know that so we could check to see whether the requirements are met. You've spent a great deal of time on the aspects of the waiver law, which are quite frankly on the surface of it not problematic at all by my -- I don't have any questions PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 about those. MRS. MOORE: MEMBER SIMON: Okay. But there was a troubling lack of information on that particular one and I'd welcome the opportunity to see a fuller part of the record. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I mean, I can provide for you the timeline. Mr. Kroznik, Deiter Kroznik, that was his home as I recall, yes, and Adele Cosenza as we can point -- as we'll state is -- was the Power of Attorney for Mr. Kroznik. Do you want to know when he entered the nursing home? I mean, as long as we establish that they are all family, which that was the case. Kwoznik, Cosenza was the family, the Kwoznik family and Jason is the grandson. MEMBER SIMON: The relevant point is not whether he had Power of Attorney, anyone could have Power of Attorney, but the actual ownership, change of ownership of the property at that time and it looks as though the person who had Power of Attorney was the owner of the property and if that's true then it's expressly important that that person be a Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 member of the family. MRS. MOORE: Not a problem. Mrs. Cosenza was a member of the -- Kwoznik-Cosenza. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, you went to a lot of trouble to write this very complete and descriptive. I just -- maybe you skipped a page. I thought maybe (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I skipped a page in the I apologize. I guess I was taking -- I remembered, personally, that Mrs. Cosenza was a family member only because I had done a will for her, but I apologize for not carrying it through. MEMBER SIMON: We don't have access to your personal memory. MRS. MOORE: Sometimes I forget you can't read my mind. So I apologize, that's my fault and I will certainly give that to you, that's not a problem. MEMBER SIMON: I have no further questions. MRS. MOORE: I mean, if you want to take it right now on the record sworn to -- MEMBER SIMON: I'd like to see it in writing. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine. Do it as a affidavit -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you like to say something? MS. ANDALORO: I would just like to note for the Board the issue was raised of rez judicata in this instance because a determination has already been made and I think the issue was specifically raised with respect to how this got through the Building Department when they had already issued years ago a Notice of Disapproval. I want to -- and this has nothing to do with the application before us right now, I'd just like to point out that there are very specific factual circumstances here and I don't know if the Town Board meant to open the door to all of the applications that were denied under the old law. I think the jury is still out on that so I don't want this decision to make a - - to create a precedential effect for all of the others or open the door for all of the others that have been denied in the past. MRS. MOORE: Well, with all due respect, when there is a change in the law, in PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 fairness, applicants are entitled to come in with -- based on the change in the law. I know that from my action before the Town Board it was these cases and many of the cases that were denied that were the factual patterns and the people that came to the Town Board meetings and I can assure you I made sure that all my clients came and spoke at the Town Board meeting to express their dismay at the way this law had been interpreted and then acted on with (inaudible) Board action. So whatever the intent was, I think that, as a matter of law, when there is a change in the law that an applicant's entitled to come in and make an application. I think in fairness that's what prompted the change in the Code were the people that were -- you know, not those that don't know that they have a waiver, or that they have a merger in that in some cases may or may not have presented a case. It was those cases where they had actually made applications and then been denied that prompted the appearances before the Town Board. So I -- MEMBER SIMON: I -- Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MS. ANDALORO: Excuse me, Michael. Pat, I understand your argument, and I do agree with you that the rules with respect to the ZBA have changed; however, the rules with respect to the Building Department have not. So in this instance it's arguable whether or not the Building Department should have issued an additional Notice of Disapproval because it had the same application it had before it. MRS. MOORE: So how does one get here other than through a Notice of Disapproval? MS. ANDALORO: That's what's out -- that's what's out with the jury right now. I understand your argument and again I believe the issue is undecided and ultimately I think after consideration, you know, I believe the Town Board will do the right thing and let people exert their rights, but it's not clear and I, again, don't want to open up the door here for a precedent to be set and I just want it reflected on the record. It's very unique with this BOARD ASST.: application. on MEMBER SIMON: I would like to add though the -- it may not have a bearing on this PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 case (inaudible) correct, by rights, your history of the changes of the waiver of merger law. Whether people complained about the way that economic hardship was interpreted or not, the courts regularly have consistently upheld that the waiver -- that economic hardship simply could not be satisfied on anybody's interpretation except that of the applicants that an opportunity cost, as economists call them, does not count as economic hardship. So the reason it was changed was not because the Town Board changed it's mind about economic hardship, it felt that this was too many cases had been decided and several were brought to the courts after this one and the Court naturally came back with the same answer, as long as you have an economic hardship clause to that case it's not gonna fly. So it wasn't the (inaudible) of the Board or anything like that, it was a matter of this is settled law and so, right, if the law changes then what was settled law becomes moot is the issue. The question of the rez and I think that judicata is a separate issue and I think that I agree with Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Jennifer, I'm delighted by what she said. It's not a matter for this Board to jump into because it's between the Town Board and the Building Department and the courts. MRS. MOORE: I guess I'm a little confused because how -- the Building Department doesn't have the discretion to say this has been decided, this has not been decided or whatever. Theirs is a black and white world, which is you make an application and you get a Notice of Disapproval and then it comes before this Board. So I'm confused on the procedure. I mean, you either go back on the original Notice of Disapproval and appeal that -- MS. ANDALORO: Extend -- MRS. MOORE: What? MS. ANDALORO: Extend time by it, though, Pat. For most of these cases those Notice of Disapprovals came out years ago. So again -- MRS. MOORE: But the law didn't change until recent -- MS. ANDALORO: MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible). It's under -- that interpretation, quite frankly, would undermine Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 all the efforts that took place for five years to get the Town Board to change it because you're penalizing those that got a determination versus those that didn't wake up until today and found out that their lots merged. That is not a fair -- MS. ANDALORO: Again, Pat this is not the forum for that argument and I understand it's not our -- MRS. MOORE: the -- No, no, no, but I think that MS. ANDALORO: -- decision to make. It is an issue and it has to be brought to the Town Board and they'll look at it. Again, but I just don't want this case to set precedent for everybody before and, again, I do believe that the Town Board will ultimately agree with you, but as a policy I can't make those policy decisions and neither can this Board. MRS. MOORE: Since it doesn't impact this case -- MS. ANDALORO: case. It does not impact this MRS. MOORE: Okay, but it is helpful to me because I have a handful of applications Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 that were injured and were -- and appeared before the Town Board for relief and that's fortunately they finally acted. So -- BOARD ASST.: There's also another procedure. You have the other procedure that's available that's in the new law also. MRS. MOORE: Which is? BOARD ASST.: Which is to apply for an area variance under the subdivision regulations -- MRS. MOORE: But that's always been the case. BOARD ASST.: But that's a have, but that's also in the new law that was added in. MRS. MOORE: But that's always, an area variance has always been -- BOARD ASST.: I'm just mentioning it though it is in the new law to confirm it for anyone so there's no misunderstanding. MRS. MOORE: Well, I can't -- I won't dispute that cause I haven't looked at that particular issue. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: Okay, any questions about this case? Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Hi Pat. MRS. MOORE: Hi. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, since it's on the survey though it isn't in the Notice of Disapproval I think we discussed, you know, the merits of the proposed waiver of merger and the established two lot sizes. I'd like to simply state the following relative to I think a single and separate is easy to establish as well. While I think it's a kind of admirable and wonderful situation where families wish to remain in close contact with each other and so on, when we grant these kinds of waivers they really have to be on the basis of, you know, the facts because, you know, it's very possible that this would be sold. There is no guarantee when you waive the merger for two lots what's gonna happen to that second lot. So just so the record reflects that while we're sympathetic to a family situation, you can't unmerge based on the promise that a family member is going to be the beneficiary of that. Having said that, since the survey that we have show not only the lot, but a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 proposed dwelling on the lot, let's talk a little bit about that proposed dwelling. Even though it's not before us, it's relevant because it's presented. We're looking at a 12-foot side yard setback as proposed, it says proposed house. You know, conforming rear yard/front yard setbacks. Is a 12-foot side yard setback on this size lot conforming? Isn't it 157 I don't honestly know. Jen's got the -- you've got the Code book. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just come up here, please. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, this is an old -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I just want to make sure this survey is -- MR. TAGGART: This is Jason Taggart, again. Yeah, I think Gerard mentioned this back in '06 that he was worried about fire trucks or anything let alone the setback so I agreed that I can move that 18 to 20 feet. The reason that the house was set in there, so if you look out my backdoor you're not looking at somebody else's house. You're looking at a house that's turned sideways, it looks open and you're not pawing each other and he says PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 would you mind moving it over in case of fire or anything, but come down cause the driveway was, and I agreed to it, yes, I would. MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, to the point is let the record reflect the fact that this survey that's part of this application, which is dated May 22, 2002, okay, does not incorporate any sort of proposal for a house as cited on this survey. Okay, it is strictly looking at the character of the neighborhood, the size of the lots and so on. Alright, not a specific proposal -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, not variance -- requesting a MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I understand. It's not even on the Notice, but it's on a survey and it's important that we get all of this cleared up before we proceed because certainly it's fairly obvious that scooting it to one side has to do with open views. Nevertheless, given the size of the property and the size of the proposal here, it's just so close to the property boundary I just wanted to make it clear that this does not in any way suggest that we're -- that an endorsement of a waiver Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7O ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 would endorse the location of a house in that spot. Alright, that's all. MRS. MOORE: Okay, fine. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that acceptable? MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's fine. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody like to speak for or against this application? Sir? I do have one letter in here, by the way, not in favor of this unmerger. Sir? MR. TRIPTREE: My name is Richard Triptree. I live directly across the street from where the proposed piece of property -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want the spelling of his last name? BOARD ASST.: No, we have it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. TRIPTREE: -- 110 Wabasso Street. I have a few questions. I would disagree with Ms. Moore about the environmental impact basically because if they build a house on that particular lot, the level of the lot, the house is gonna have to be raised. I've been PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 battling with the Highway Department for two and a half years since I moved in because of the flood damage on Wabasso Street and the inability of all the drains, the damage to the road, to handle any water runoff. I incur massive floods in with Mr. Russell, -- two weeks ago. front of my house. I spoke went to his office last week I have pictures for you. Mr. Harris came to my house and they pumped the drain out. I have mosquito infestations in front of my house. I have -- I can't keep my vehicles clean because of the massive floods in front of my house. Any house that's built on that property is going to have to be raised because of the level of the property. I have no objection to Jason and Tom building a house there. I'm not happy about it, it's their property, but I'm not here to dispute what they want to do, but I do have problems with the environmental impact. I have been battling with the Town to get this fixed, they keep on promising me they're gonna fix it. I have huge potholes in front of my house. I have foul-smelling mud in front of my house. My driveway is falling Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 apart. I can't -- I moved there approximately three years ago and I renovated. I put well over $100,000.00 of my own money into renovations on the house. I can't do the outside, it looks like a bomb hit it because of all these floods. If anybody would like to look at these there are extra copies. They're more than willing to see what I'm talking about. I have not been able to get any help to take care of it, so -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is this the only location on the block that you're having this trouble? MR. TRIPTREE: After everything runs from every other block down Wabasso to Hiawatha, everywhere runs completely in front of my house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you specifically speak to the Highway Superintendant about -- MR. TRIPTREE: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, to the Highway Superintendant about a special use area there just to take care of this, in other PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 words, a total excavation of both sides of the road with -- MR. TRIPTREE: That's what they told me they were going to do. They've never done it and now if you drive past my house you hold your nose when you pull into my driveway. You can't get in the driveway cause of the pothole and the road falling apart. You'll see pictures of the floods in front of my house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. TRIPTREE: Now, as I told Mr. Harris, a lot of the landscaping area on my property is my responsibility, but I can't do it because they haven't fixed their portion of their responsibility. So again, I disagree with Mrs. Moore's application as far as there's no environmental -- there might not be on Jason's property cause it's a very well manicured piece of property, but there will definitely be a negative affect on mine as there is the only piece there. I also have a question, not to jump around, there is another double section piece of property to the north of Jason. If you grant this application, what's gonna stop them PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 from dividing that piece of property into two separate lots? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, each piece is unique, that's all I can say. MR. TRIPTREE: Yes, I understand that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let me just jump back again. Whenever we have a particular problem with a property owner with water, we always suggest that they discuss with the Highway Superintendent the possibility of a special use drainage system just for your piece of property, okay? In other words, for yours and the surrounding people's that are having that problem. So in other words if they have to capital that money for the purpose of that and they have to charge you some interest in reference to doing that, it sounds like it's having a tremendous negative affect upon your property based upon -- and problems with everything as you're explaining to us. So in the past special use districts have been created for this purpose and that's why I asked you if it was only affecting your property and no others on the block. Okay and that's just my suggestion to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 you, okay. MR. TRIPTREE: suggestion. Now I do I get it fixed? Alright, that's a valid go back to the point of how I've been to Mr. Russell. I've been to his office. pictures. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Highway Superintendent. I've shown him the No, this is the MR. TRIPTREE: I've been to -- Mr. Harris has been to my house. We stood in front of my house for half an hour. I showed him all the pictures, nothing's been done and like I said I have no objection to Jason's proposal. Now, they're great neighbors. They take very good care of their home. I have no problem with it; however, I do have a problem with another structure because it's going to have to be raised and the runoff from that structure is just gonna make matters worse. So, you know, I don't mean to -- if this is an economic situation why their selling the property, I certainly don't mean to create undue stress on Jason's family, that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to try to get something -- avert something worse being done because, obviously, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 I can't get anywhere after almost three years of trying fix this problem. MEMBER SIMON: Would you be saying that the value of Mr. Taggart's property if the waiver is granted will be increased after the Town gets around to solving your problem? MR. TRIPTREE: Absolutely, cause the house will be right there, but the house would be situated almost in front of where the problem is. It'll be a little to the south of where the majority of the problem is, but something has to -- because they're going to raise the house, they're going to have to raise the foundation to get the runoff away from the foundation and the only place for it to run will be directly at my house. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there are pretty vigorous drainage codes that the Town will enforce through the building process that will require all roof runoff, all drainage will have to be done through drywells, gutters and leaders and so on on site. That's -- we fortunately now have a very, very serious drainage code that has to be adhered to. If the property was wooded, where there were lots Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 of root structures and so on that absorbed, you know, actually absorbed some of the water problem there, I would have some serious concerns because clear cutting would have a significant additional impact even though drainage was to be onsite. This is really lawn. This is already prepared for building site, if you will, but I really have sympathy -- in fact, you were before us, were you not, for your front porch? MR. TRIPTREE: Absolutely. MEMBER WEISMAN: And it looks really nice, actually, I went out there, but it is a substantial problem. You've documented it very well and I think the thing to do is to not necessarily confuse the two issues, but on the other hand I would really like to see this Board do whatever it could since it's part of this hearing to assist you in getting the Town to do the right thing and to deal with it. I mean, maybe you need to get Jamie Richter out there who's the Town Engineer. Somehow or another this flooding situation is really serious. I can see that it has very -- it would have bad impacts on anybody, on your PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 property as well anybody else in that area. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was suggesting. MR. TRIPTREE: Sure. as the Taggart property or Let me explain what CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What they do is they float a performance bond, okay, and floating the performance bond that bond has to be paid off, okay, over a period of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years. You would have to share in the cost of that performance bond, that's what I'm suggesting since you're getting nowhere, okay, in this situation. It's done when roads are not brought up to normal specifications. Water can be done in the same way, I mean, we're really in a different venue here in discussing this at this immediate time, but that's what I'm suggesting. If you're going nowhere with this request, then ask him about the possibility of a performance bond and let him do the total drainage so all the drainage is taken care of in your particular situation and so the further drainage -- the further lots in the area aren't further exacerbating - - I'm talking about vacant lots as you just PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 directed. So all of the property owners in that area, not just yourself will be required to pay a portion of that performance bond, which will increase the value of your house at the same time, that's what in effect I'm referring to, since it appears you're not going anywhere with this at this time. I'm just throwing it out to you as a suggestion. Alright. I'm not talking about a lot of money here because you're using Town employees who are working, alright, mainly what that does is it requires so much infrastructure and it pays for that infrastructure, all the rings, all the cesspools, all the piping. I'm not referring to cesspools, I'm talking about the drainage. MR. TRIPTREE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what the performance bond does. Okay and I'm just throwing that out to you. BOARD ASST.: It requires Town Board resolution. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It requires Town Board resolution, but I mean it has to be instituted through the Highway Department. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MR. TRIPTREE: any longer, I know have to go through Not to make this run on you're busy, but why do we that process if the Highway Department is there to maintain the roads? I'm a little -- why would we have to go through that bond if the Highway Department's already there to take care of the roads that are obviously crumbling? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, because the roads themselves, although may be dedicated to the Town themselves, may not have met the standards that they are now meeting today. Alright, in reference to handling traffic and excuse me, water runoff and we run into it all the time, okay, in reference to some of the roads and I'm just saying that that may be the situation. I'm just saying that that's another avenue that you could pursue and you don't have to do it strictly from yourself, I mean there are other people that have property contiguous and/or adjacent to this that are going to have the same problem. BOARD ASST.: You want to have the neighbors all get together. MR. TRIPTREE: I'm the only one with the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that's not necessarily true because we don't know what the affect of that corner lot is going to be and we don't know what the affect of this lot is going to be. We're not here to discuss that issue, but I'm offering that to you as only free information because there is no doubt that you have a beautiful house. There is no doubt that you want this situation rectified and I'm just saying to really do a nice job on that turn as it comes around in front of your house so that you never have this problem again, okay, that would be the avenue that I pursue. MR. TRI?TREE: So I'll where do we go from here? try to make this - I'm not trying to delay this proceeding, but where do I go from here? You're telling me CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would suggest to the Highway Department that -- what's the possibility of a special use area just to take care of this water problem to be shared by XYZ property owners who are all going to benefit from it? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 BOARD ASST.: You might with a representative on the if they're willing to, you know, for you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it's a recommendation from the Highway Department. MEMBER SIMON: And the Town Engineer. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: suggestion. MR. TRIPTREE: Okay, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: want to speak Town Board to see look into it thank you. It's a pleasure. Anybody else like to speak? Hearing no further comment -- MRS. MOORE: Just one point I just want to emphasize here, some of the drainage issues there are as you pointed out the road as it was built they probably did not have adequate drainage on the road itself, but the homes in that area because they were built from the 50s to whatever, until the drainage code was implemented recently have gutters and drywells that go straight out to the property and then drain onto the road. This property will not have that because it has to comply with the current drainage code and as the homes are PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 Yes, that's my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 improved or renovated those houses too will be required to upgrade and put drainage to address their roof runoff issues. So over time new houses and renovated homes will correct that, but in the meantime it's not -- this property does not create the problem. It's actually the existing developed properties that are creating the problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure, that's correct. I agree with you. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. Let me put in the documents that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we're gonna receive from you a -- MRS. MOORE: I'll give you an affidavit as to the family heirship. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: And the dates. MRS. MOORE: The dates, sure, yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I'll make a motion closing the hearing, subject to the receipt of that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 84 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6294 - Paul T. Betancourt MEMBER WEISMAN: "Location of Property: 1825 Aquaview Avenue, East Marion; CTM 22-2-6 (adjacent to Long Island Sound). The applicant requests Variances based on the Building Inspector's March 24, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning an application for a building permit for the following proposed construction: 1) Under Section 280-124 for proposed additions and alterations to the dwelling with: a. Front yard setback at less than 40 feet; b. Single side yard at less than 10 feet; c. Combined side yards at less than 35 feet; d. Lot coverage exceeding the code limitation of 20% for lot coverage (based on a nonconforming 10,133 square feet of buildable area); 2) Under Section 280-15 for swimming pool construction proposed in a side yard Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 3) instead of a code-required rear yard (or code-required front yard for waterfront property); Under Section 280-116A(1) for proposed additions and alterations to the dwelling at less than 100 feet from the top of the bluff." Would you like to for the record? MR. STRANG: Yes. just mention your name Good morning. Garrett Strang, architect, 1230 Travelers Street, Southold, here representing the applicant, Mr. Betancourt who is also present to answer any questions the Board may have as we move through the proceeding. I'd like to make a brief presentation, if I may and then take questions after that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MR. STRANG: In looking at the site plan as you review it, basically, the primary reason that we require variances is due to the fact that there exists a small house on the lot and the property is bounded on the north by Long Island Sound bluff, which having a Coastal Erosion Zone setback encroaches Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 86 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 substantially on the lot. Due to that Coastal Erosion line the net buildable lot area, as mentioned in the disapproval is about 10,000 square feet. Strict application of all zoning requirements would basically not allow a building envelope without the need for variances. Almost all of the proposed work is required to be landward of the existing house, which is a small one and a half story home with about 840 square feet on the first floor and about 400 square feet in the attic area, part of which is dormers. The existing home was built in the early 1960s. There is a crawlspace under the house. Since my client bought the house about 7 years ago, his use of the house has changed and he would like to make this residence. He would also like family accommodations he needs a full-time -- he has some to make, specifically one being he'd like to have his mother be able to live with him as such we're proposing expansion of the house as you see. The proposal for the first floor addition is approximately 550 square feet of living space. There's a full second floor addition PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 which some of which will be living space, some of which will be deck or upper terrace space. We've proposed a small single car garage and approximately 300 square feet of general storage and garden storage, which will replace an existing garden shed. In addition, there's a proposal for a swimming pool with a relatively small terrace surrounding it. Ail of the above have received a permit from the Southold Town Trustees as well as a determination from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation that it is out of their jurisdiction and that's based on the elevation of the property and the bluff. So obviously part of the challenge is due to the Coastal Erosion Zone requiring that the additions and swimming pool be located outside of the Coastal Erosion Zone thereby placing it primarily by the front side of the house. A point I'd like to present for consideration is if we were to take into account the substantial loss of lot area due to the Coastal Erosion Zone encumbrance on the property, as stated, it brings the lot size PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 down to 10,000 feet. If we were to go to the bulk schedule using 10,000 square feet as a lot size, the required front yard setback would be 35 feet not 40 thereby reducing the proposed nonconformity. The required minimum side yard would be 10 feet and the total required side yard would be 25, not the 15 and 35. Also eliminating the proposed nonconformity in that particular situation. Another point is the proposed front yard setback does increase to a conforming 40-foot setback very quickly as the pool is set on an angle to the front property line. In addition, I would like you to take note of the fact that the property is at the dead end of a private road. The only traffic that passes by this property is that of the owner and his immediate neighbor across the street and that there does also exist an established mature planting buffer along the road, which is evident if you were to visit the property. Finally, the pool by all accounts and appearance would be in the front yard except that by definition it is defined now to be in a side yard because of the garage addition. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 So I just wanted to bring those points up for the Board's consideration and I'd be happy to answer any questions that the Board members may have as well as I said Mr. Betancourt is present and he could answer any questions that you might have of him as well. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well let me begin by just entering into the record a couple of the proposed nonconformities here. The proposal involves just about doubling the size of the existing house. It is now requiring six variances. A front yard setback at 26 instead of 40 feet. Single side yard at 10 feet instead of 15, combined side yards at 30 instead of 35, lot coverage at 28.2 instead of 20%, swimming pool in side yard which granted is for interpretation, it's something that is interpreted because of the unique situation on a cul-de-sac, and the garage, and finally of greater concern to me anyway is the dwelling which would be with the overhand 27 feet from the top of the bluff. Now we have a situation with the wraparound bluff basically. MR. STRANG: Yes, we do. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9O ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: So there's some pretty - - and that existing dwelling is really quite close where there's a small bit of law area and then I see that, in addition to an extremely steep slope, that is heavily vegetated with natural vegetation the applicants have actually also planted some native plants. There are some Montauk daisies, there are some natives grasses, there are some raspberry plants and so on there. But it's sitting almost a-typical of what that whole bluff area looks like. It kind of wraps and juts out almost like a promontory and then is cut back. So there are significant concerns with adding additional weight that close to the bluff. Now a full second story though you may not be encroaching any farther the overhang is what is encroaching farther as I understand it. MR. STRANG: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that correct, Garrett? MR. STRANG: Yes, there is an overhang which -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: For severe weather -- MR. STRANG: To help in weather. It partially will be used as an open terrace up on the upper level. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. So that's a lot of load up there we're talking about a deck of some sort. See again what we don't have, we have the building diagrams, the elevational diagrams. They're not articulated, there's no real fenestration. Are you proposing flat roofs on all of these? MR. STRANG: This is part of the consideration, my client would like to have a home with flat roofs, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, so that presents a particular kind of drainage situation. I'm assuming that drainage would be taken care of with gutters and leaders, MR. STRANG: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: But and drywells. I am really concerned about that much construction that close to the bluff even though a lot of it is landward, we are really spreading this out and spreading this up. It's a small cottage on a fairly restricted lot and so I think, you Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 know, I'd like to hear --I just wanted to enter those circumstances into the -- we don't really have any MR. STRANG: house at all. MEMBER WEISMAN: bit difficult without floor plans so this -- No, we haven't drawn the Right, so it is a little seeing a bit more of the house. I know you tend to prefer to do site plans and see what variances you're gonna get before you encumber your clients with the price tag of as you're designing something, but there's an advantage to that, but there's a bit of a disadvantage to when we're trying to really evaluate precisely what's going on here. It may not be as difficult for me to imagine having a similar background as you have, but it does have some disadvantages for other Board members who are not quite as versed in potential although given this happen. architectural conclusions diagram anything could Having said that, let's hear what other people have to say. We do have some LWRP and Soil and Water concerns to look at particularly, but I'll stop for now and come Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 back. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Garrett, I'd like to really have you consider the possibility of moving this house back a little bit since you have a crawlspace underneath it it would greatly enhance the whole picture. Even -- I mean it's the loading aspect is just unbelievable. MR. STRANG: If I may interrupt just for a second to address that particular point, and I know Ms. Weisman made the same point as far as the loading issues. The house is obviously presently there and it is a one and a half story house so there is a second floor load already all be it not as CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MR. STRANG: -- large Intense. as what's being proposed, but it is basically as large as that closest to the bluff. So I mean as we move further away from the bluff with the additions, the load obviously moves further away from the bluff. So I don't see if there's an extensive amount of additional load being placed on the foundation wall along the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 or closest to the bluff than what already exists. There's also the possibility that we could reinforce in the basement somewhat, not basement but crawlspace area, somewhat with some piers, girders and the like to bring that load further back in under the footprint of the building. To address Mr. Goehringer's point about moving the house back, moving the house back obviously brings everything even closer to the road than presently, but in order to jack the house up and slide it back it's gonna require a tremendous amount of heavy equipment and the like running around between the house and the bluff side which I think is a detriment in my opinion. The idea here is to have the least amount of disturbance between the existing house and the edge of the bluff and by being able to go just straight up over the existing walls, we have zero if any disturbance between the house and the bluff. wanted to bring up. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a point I Well, let's go on to the swimming pool. The swimming pool is too large. It should be, in my particular Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 opinion, it shouldn't be there at all, but it should be the smallest possible swimming pool that the person could utilize. Okay, even if you have to go back to the width of a lap pool, that's number two. Number three, I have no idea and no conceptual ability to tell you what this roofline situation is gonna look like and your client can do what he wants, but the tree situation that's up there and the way that wind blows out of the northeast, I wouldn't put a flat roof on this house in any case, but that's neither here nor there. I just hope there's no anticipation of utilizing the flat roof for any observation purposes from this house because we don't deal with that in any way. Two stories it. MR. STRANG: is two stories and that's Um-hmm, understood. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's probably a proposed (inaudible) this proposed deck. MR. STRANG: Well, the deck is at the proposed second floor level not at the roof. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MR. STRANG: I think I understood what Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Jerry's point is the roof with an whatever. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: smaller pool, it will open that we're not gonna go up on observation platform or By utilizing a the easterly side yard up a little bit more and that's basically the situation and I just -- I'm concerned about load and I'm concerned about -- I think you have to give us more -- I have to see more plans I can't visualize this. This is a pretty small piece of property. It's bigger than Bay Shore Road, but this Board has requested on Bay Shore Road of the typical architects that come before us that do have individual models so that we can utilize inaudible) and see exactly what's being done. If it's not plans, then let's see a model. Let's see how it looks. Let's see what the overall aspect of it is and try and understand the load aspect as you are requesting it in reference to the girder situation in the crawlspace and so on and so forth. I have to tell you in all true candor, I watch these guys from Yaphank stick two steel beams underneath a house of this size with Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 absolutely nothing on the opposite side and, because there was no basement under the house, because there was a crawlspace, and put a collar around the house to run small single bladed bulldozer and slid that house back 14 feet with absolutely no disturbance at all to anything on the, what I would refer to as the seaward side of the house and if I was this applicant that's what I would do, but -- I'm just trying to think of their name cause they did work for me at one time, too. MR. STRANG: The movers? Dawn? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the ones in Yaphank over on -- I'll find them. MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a couple of them that do it. What's interesting is many times as we know people are very reluctant to want to give up that water view for obvious reasons, regardless of bluff impact. In this situation, that property is configured in such a way that there's a water view everywhere. I mean it could be -- MR. STRANG: It's a unique piece of property. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- 30 feet back and you Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 would still have an absolutely unencumbered water view. In that sense, it's an extremely valuable piece of property and a beautiful piece of property. I think probably the reaction by the Board is it is not a-typical that people want to convert small cottages into larger properties for year-round use. It happens all over the place and I think there's a reasonable situation in most situations you can understand why people might want to do that. I don't feel I'm here to prevent that, but I certainly want to grant the smallest variance as we possibly can in every situation, which is what the law requires us to do, and when you have a property that in order to proceed requires six variances to double the size of a small house on a small lot, then I want to question what we can do to reduce some of that. 28% lot coverage is -- I understand, the law is the law. I mean even though we have people in here all the time attorneys, architects arguing they changed, you know, what's considered a building lot. They changed because we now have the Coastal Erosion Hazard Zone imposed. Well, we all Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 know there's reasons why those laws have been imposed and changed. I'm not so sympathetic, therefore, to arguments that talk about what it could have been had those laws not been put into place. They were put into place for a very good reason. So 28.2% lot coverage is substantial, especially when you're also talking about a second story increase and I would like to know, Garrett, if you could speak to your clients and see how you might in some way respond to the comments and questions you've heard from the Board relative to maybe alternate proposal that reduces some of these variances or eliminates some of the variances. There's just so many of them on such an environmentally fragile piece of property that I would be very eager to hear any possible discussion that you and your clients might have that could allow us to proceed in granting him some relief, but with something that's going to have less number of variances and less significant ones. That's a really close setback to the bluff. MR. STRANG: Well, it is, but it exists already and we're trying not to disturb it and Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 work -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand. I think what Jerry said is something you could think about and discuss. I would be more inclined to grant a larger percentage of relief if the bluff impact was reduced. MR. STRANG: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: But, you know, it's kind of develop this way, come back this way. We're trying to play the shifting games on the slope. So again I think the side yard, actually the entrance is in the side yard essentially, right? You're not changing it -- MR. STRANG: No, the entrance will be from the east side. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's gonna remain as proposed and should be remain on the side. So there'll be a lot of movement along that side yard, which is really close to the bluff and, you know, there's -- anyway, I think I've said what I -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to mention one thing. I did ask the LWRP coordinator to go out and take another look at this not to have him change his mind in PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 reference to the consistency or non- consistency aspect of it, but mainly from the point of view of making a more evaluative inspection of what he might suggest to us. MEMBER WEISMAN: To mitigate. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To mitigate. Okay and I don't set people up, trust me. Garrett this is very simply for that particular reason. MR. STRANG: No, I understand. I understand. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, does want to say something, but did you want to say something first? MR STRANG: I just wanted to make a point and I know the Code is the Code and basically because the code says swimming pool surface area is considered lot coverage it puts us at the 28%. I believe if we back the pool out we're at 20% lot coverage, but you know a pool is basically at grade and for all intents and purposes it's not covered, it's open, but I know the Code says you have to consider the pool area as part of your lot coverage when you calculate. Now, ironically the terrace PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 that surrounds it doesn't have to be, but the pool itself does. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. STRANG: And that's worth 800 square feet right there, but again going back to your recommendation, we can look at the pool and see about resizing it and the like along with some of the other points that were brought up. MEMBER SIMON: I have -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You can look at the storage stuff as well. MEMBER SIMON: Much of what I would say has already been said. I support most of what has been said, but not being a potted plant I thought I would put in a few comments myself. First of all, without reviewing these points I say looking at the front (inaudible) one thing you look at here you have a small house that was built quite close to the bluff on a not a very large lot and it looks as though one might have to choose between a small house very close to the bluff and a swimming pool and the swimming pool is certainly one of the things that prevents the whole business being built backwards if they wanted a bigger house Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 and as far as whether the swimming pool should be counted as lot coverage or not well you know we're not gonna change the Code in this hearing. MR. STRANG: I understand that. I don't expect that. MEMBER SIMON: But the -- I mean, but the idea of having this where it is now, as it looks like, cause all we have really are these plans. You commented about the load on the bluff, which is a concern. Well, it don't know that it's strictly true that the load on the bluff would stay the same given that it's going to be in effect almost like a cantilever leaning forward on the extension of whatever it is 8 feet further out onto the bluff. So that would probably be something that would be fairly hard to sustain since it would be a significant increase in the nonconformity in that particular critical direction. Having said that, I appreciate the remarks on the ease of moving a house. I would think this is a bigger deal than people who know about it do, but there's something quite -- it's a wonderful spot. It's a Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 wonderful promontory as Leslie referred to it and you've got a house, which is perhaps disappointingly small in this very choice spot up front. Luckily, you could still have a view by having more of the house further back. If the swimming pool is going to be a casualty of this, that's a decision for the homeowner to make, but I think you've heard some of us saying that we're not terribly happy about some aspect of {inaudible). I just mention one thing. If you ask for six variances, there's a pretty good chance that a couple of Board members are gonna be opposed to two of them at least. Even if they're not the same ones. MR. STRANG: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you referring to variances or Board members? MEMBER SIMON: Both. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to use the mike and tell us who you are. MR. BETANCOURT: A thought that I had -- Yes, hi, I'm Tim Betancourt or Paul Betancourt as you may have me down and one of the thoughts I always had when I'm sitting in the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 living room and so on is that that one -- in my mind there's only one sort of fragile corner of the property where you would have concerns about, you know, the bluff being close to the -- you know, the house being close to the bluff and everything. I don't think that the western corner is really that much of a concern and anything towards the road I don't think is really -- there's, in my opinion, it doesn't seem like that would be an issue. The real issue is in that corner where if you look at the imaginary line that we have there, that's really, yeah, this little area where the line crosses that corner and I never really had -- in my mind there is already a foundation there, a structure with the lower, it has a crawlspace and in my mind that if anything we wouldn't be tampering. It does show sort of building out a little bit on the lower level, but there wouldn't necessarily there wouldn't be any weight on the upper level necessarily. I could set back the second floor so that there's no strain on that added. So if you had any push on the eastern side, it would just be a one-story structure. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 It wouldn't really have the weight and you don't necessarily have to dig out or anything like that. You could just put -- and then the second level could sit back from that corner in any way necessary so that there's no strain on that area there. In fact, in my thoughts I also was thinking, if necessary, the whole corner could be -- the living space of the lower level in fact could be, you know, there could be some sort of a pull back just in the corner so that that strain -- so that there's no strain in that part and then the second level would be sitting on top of that area so that there's no sort of -- you're not really putting any added strain on the lot itself or the, you know, the bluff. I'm more than willing to do that in any way necessary. In a way, I -- in my thoughts I think that, yeah, the thought is that the living space and the outdoor space right in that corner would sort of come together in some form, you know, and so if it was a terrace, a one story terrace with an enclosure or something with not a lot of weight. So it PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 doesn't have the weight. So that corner really wouldn't -- we wouldn't be looking to put more weight on that corner. I'm not looking to do that. So whatever we need to do in order to satisfy everybody in that area, I don't have a problem with adjusting our design in order to whatever the restrictions you would give me, I can work with that corner. Pull it back a little bit so that there's no added weight in that location. MEMBER WEISMAN: This is one of the advantages of coming before the Board without too much investment in conclusive designs where you become very fixated on the cost you've already spent. Having said what you've just said and heard what we've just suggested, would the two of you, architect and client, be agree to perhaps discuss this further with each other take into account what you've heard from us, the questions we've had, the suggestions we've made and to come back with an alternative site plan or perhaps diagrams or whatever you want to say that has incorporates some of the things you've just said where you step back the second floor PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 108 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 where you try to increase side yards a little bit, maybe look at that storage area that you're proposing. Look at the swimming pool and things like that and see how you can reduce the lot coverage and some of the other nonconforming variances that you've applied for and let us take another look at it. How's that sound? MR. STRANG: That's fine with me. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that agreeable to you? MR. BETANCOURT: The second floor can be MEMBER SIMON: Amended application. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, an amended application. MR. STRANG: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We cannot be with you, however, until October 1st, okay? MR. BETANCOURT: I'm trying to think if there are any questions that I would have. It's easy to move the second floor back a little bit, this way and that way, whatever is necessary. You know, it's -- there's room for Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cutting back on space, having a outdoor space. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. BETANCOURT: mean I would like to little more Oh, sure. But the lower corner, -- I wouldn't have any interest in putting anymore strain on it, I certainly want to try to hang onto that little corner cause it's a very beautiful little space there. MEMBER WEISMAN: you're talking about? MR. BETANCOURT: MEMBER WEISMAN: but The northeast corner The northeast, yeah. Well, this is a start. the all to. You know, you came before us with a request for a whole lot of things. We're trying to work with you to figure out how to accommodate your desire to expand your dwelling and the amenities on your property, but doing it with least number of variances. Garrett's here the time knowing what these things amount we ' ve there So if you were to come back with an amended plan taking into account the things described, I think we could take it from and I appreciate your willingness to Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 work with us rather than to have us state no, denial, denial. We don't want to do that particularly to property owners, but, you know, sometimes if they're unwilling to bend a bit it's just too overwhelming a proposal and we have no alternative -- MR. BETANCOURT: The idea of moving the house is sort of a concern to me. I think it's, you know, I'm kind of hoping to reduce the corner and I would like to at least try to work with that template if it's possible and try and reduce the strain on the second floor if it's possible, you know, and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have, Mr. Betancourt, did you have the foundation evaluated not only by your architect here, but by an engineer to show that the foundation is able to withstand -- MR. BETANCOURT: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's what you should do between now and the next hearing. Okay. MR. BETANCOURT: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that we know exactly if you can use that or not. Okay, and PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 that's the issue. MR. BETANCOURT: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: away from Mr. Strang. MR. BETANCOURT: I assume there're also different materials that one could use that might not be as heavy as others as well and ways to, you know, to do the structure in order to take the strain away from that part of the building. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just remember one thing, you are open to the northeast. The house that we moved back was 140 feet, okay, and the house was built to conform to those wind directions coming from the northeast, particularly those tremendous winter winds. MR. BETANCOURT: Okay, the rain comes through at a horizontal -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Quite a fast clip here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, so that's another consideration you need to do when you're referring to this second story area that's facing the water, all of the water. Okay. MR. BETANCOURT: Not taking anything Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 But there certainly a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 lot of materials, correct, that are made these days that can work, you know, can help with that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The most sophisticated one was the one that we had in Mattituck where the person wanted to build very close -- excuse me I didn't mean to cut you off -- very close to the top of the bluff where they were using composite materials as opposed to conventional construction. MR. BETANCOURT: Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping to, I'm looking forward to working with a lot of green materials and so on and so forth. I am a builder in Brooklyn. I have some experience and you know I'm kind of excited about doing things that are progressive and all of that that are good for the environment and I'm definitely not looking to -- I'm not looking to build a McMansion or anything like that. The rooms will be limited in size and all that. It's just a home for the long term and I'm not really interested in anything too big, in fact, but it has to be able to be big enough to sort of live there for a long period of time. I don't inten~ to sell it ever, so - PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 113 MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, it is a really interesting bluff situation because it's not typical at all. It's really a shear condition. There's no bulkhead, there's -- it's just -- it's kind of dangerous, actually. MR. BETANCOURT: interestingly -- MEMBER WEISMAN: There is -- well Those steps and that platform you've got on there it's just really cantilevered out over nothing and it's -- I'm sure as a property owner you don't want to see you our house or your property damaged and so MR. BETANCOURT: No, for sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: So we've had years and years and years of experience with waterfront properties on the Sound and we want to be good environmental stewards and we want to help homeowners protect their properties while protecting their neighbors' bluffs as well as their own. So it seems like you're quite aware of those things and I think we can have you get together, come back with an amended plan that incorporates your suggestions and Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 we'll -- and ours and we'll see where we are. MR. BETANCOURT: Okay. Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking like 1:30 on October 1st. That may be the secondary meeting that we have. There may be the need for a third one, okay, based upon what you've given us. Please give us all plans, models, whatever at least -- what do we need it three weeks before? MEMBER WEISMAN: Two to three weeks before. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Two to three weeks before. MEMBER WEISMAN: Two to three weeks before, we review it again, the amended really is what we -- the amended application. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If it requires an amended disapproval, please MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, eliminating or reducing the get that, Garrett. if you're nonconformity just go to Mike and get an amended Notice as well so it's consistent. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Everybody else okay with that? Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Anybody else like to speak for or against this? I just want you to know that we're squeezing you on to that one in October. MR. BETANCOURT: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you may have to wait a little while in the afternoon. MR. STRANG: I may have a conflict with that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You may have a conflict? MR. STRANG: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The next one is October 27. MEMBER WEISMAN: You want to do October 27 -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 29th, excuse me. October 29th, the 29th is alright. That's actually better for us. Okay, so let's go with October 29. MR. STRANG: No, I believe I'm out of town on the 29th. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, the 29th, so are you -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you alright for PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 October 1st is that when the -- MR. STRANG: That's the one I think I may have conflict with from a logistical point of view being able to get everything together and submitted on time, which is early September, at this two weeks from now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, okay right. MR. STRANG: And based on other obligations I have, I don't believe I can perform -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, what works for you? MEMBER WEISMAN: It's too soon. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go for the next meeting then. MR. STRANG: We can go with the next meeting after that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what's the next meeting? We don't have that date. Okay, MEMBER WEISMAN: It'll be the November date. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It'll be the November date. MEMBER WEISMAN: So you can have it mid- Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 October, end of October? MR. STRANG: Yeah, that shouldn't be -- it'll be before the end of October cause I'll be out of town. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's good. MR. STRANG: So we're gonna have to do mid-November, the meeting in mid-November, I guess, right? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it'll be -- it'll be-- MEMBER WEISMAN: I've got the date, we'll give you the date. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, let's look at the date. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll give you the date. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The November meeting is December 3. Yeah, it's December 3rd because of the holiday. MR. STRANG: December 3. MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's December 3rd here, that's gonna give you plenty of time -- MR. STRANG: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go with 1:00 Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 on December 3. MR. STRANG: That's after the lunch break? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. you? the first hearing Yes. Is that good for fine. we'll do MR. STRANG: That should be CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that. Let me write this down. MEMBER WEISMAN: I better write December 3rd 1:00. MR. STRANG: Alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: it down, That's good cause we're always in a good mood at Christmas time. MEMBER WEISMAN: Cookies are welcome. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll offer a resolution to adjourn the meeting until December 3. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING #6299 - William E. Hamilton CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Requests for Variances under Sections 280-4{B), 280-18, and 280-116A(1), based on the Building Inspector's revised April 8, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed swimming pool, deck, and raised patio construction, which new construction areas will be: (a) less than 100 feet from the top of the L.I. Sound bluff or bank, and {b) greater than the code-limitation of 20% lot coverage on the +/- 29,406 square feet of buildable land, located at 2670 Grandview Drive, Orient; CTM 1000-14-2-3.6." Mrs. Moore, how are you today? MRS. MOORE: Oh, good. Thank you very much. I have Mr. Joe Fischetti, professional engineer who is also here, he and I together with the help of Dave (Inaudible) on the landscaping and Rob Herman on permits, we've all been putting our heads together for the past two years to try to develop this property with a pool in such a way that would be a minimal impact on the bluff and neighbors and Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 so on. We submitted or I've submitted a plan that is based on the pool being partly in place of the existing deck and it would be considered an infinity pool that then it drips over to the secondary tier that's being shown there and I've given you plans and the floor plan of the pool to give you a description of it and Joe is here to describe it more fully. The proposed project has been reviewed by the Town Trustees and we did get a permit from them. In addition, very recently in the last two months, last month, we got approval from the Trustees for the privet that's landward of the bluff, at the top of the bluff. If you recall from your inspection there, there is a fence that is about 40 feet from the top of the bluff, landward of the top of the bluff and then between the fence that is there and the top of the bluff there is a lot of privet and that is actually not a native species. It's not conducive to maintenance of the bluff and we had gotten approval from the Trustees to replace the privet with appropriate native drought tolerant plantings. So the -- again, the property is -- has PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 been maintained. It is heavily vegetated. The bluff is stable and the application that's before you is adequately setback from the top of the bluff. We are -- the structure itself is at 80 feet from the top of the bluff. The 70.6 is a stairway that because of the elevation of the property and the structures we have to get access stairs down. Those stairs go straight out and that is the encroachment towards the bluff of the 70 feet, but 90 percent of the structure is at 80 feet from the top of the bluff, 80 and 85 on the one corner. We've given you the setbacks. The -- we had originally designed a plan that required no variances; however, it was not a good plan. This plan, I believe I gave you a survey of it, but if not I can provide one for your file. A pool was being incorporated to the existing deck within the side yard, but in fact within the existing decking; however, it could only go on the east side of the property and that is where the existing sanitary system is. Due to well distances and placement of the sanitary, we actually -- that plan required the sanitary Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 system to be placed in the area where it was 65 feet from the top of the bluff. That is permissible under both DEC regulations and also Health Department regulations; however, it was not an appropriate plan. The Trustees approved it, but we thought when we received this plan, Joe Fischetti and I and Rob Herman, we all looked at it and said this really -- this is not the best plan for the pool. So at that point we came in with this proposal, which does require variance for the setback from the bluff, but in fact it's landward of where an existing sanitary system would be placed. So we just felt that the plan itself made sense and that we were meeting the policies of the Town to keep structures as far away from the top of the bluff as possible. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just throw a MRS. MOORE: Sure, go ahead. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're not gonna like what I say and I'm not saying it in anything but a positive cause we're really not allowed, okay, we had an application in the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 great town of Greenport on the Sound just east of the Eastern Shores subdivision the newer subdivision up there, my memory escapes me what the name of the subdivision is, large houses, substantial setbacks from the Sound and specific covenants as exist on this particular piece of property. I don't think at this immediate time nor do I think in the future that we can vary this 100-foot setback without you going to the Planning Board and asking them if we can -- if you can encroach into that 100 feet. out to you. MRS. MOORE: Um, So I'm just throwing that honestly I don't believe the covenants apply to that, prevent you from building within 100 feet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had that exact same situation occur in that subdivision. MRS. MOORE: Which subdivision are we talking about? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The one I just described to you. MRS. MOORE: Oh, the other subdivision. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the other subdivision. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay, cause here you have on both sides you have pools and you have houses that are all within 100 feet of the top of the bluff also keeping in mind that the covenants when they were recorded back in the '82 the top of the bluff whatever the map was at the time may have been a different top of the bluff, I don't know specifically, but I'm not aware of -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know how those other swimming pools got there. MRS. MOORE: They were -- well, it's not just -- it's both properties, but the house itself and you granted a variance for the deck back in the '80s when the house was originally built. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but I'm just saying I'm not sure we had the actual jurisdiction to do so, okay, based upon that situation that I just described to you and -- MRS. MOORE: Explain to me who is -- oh, I see. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean I don't have any particular problem with you going to the Planning Board, okay -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MRS. MOORE: No, I just this would be a first because none of the properties in the subdivision have ever gone to the Planning Board for any of the structures that are all typically within 100 feet of the bluff that's shown now. I don't know what the bluff was at the time. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. The only jurisdiction they needed it must have been from they were granted as a matter of right from the Building Department; I have no idea. I'm not blaming the Building Department, I'm just making that statement. MRS. MOORE: Well, I mean I can discuss it with the Planning Board, but I don't believe that these are applicable to this application. MEMBER SIMON: the covenant? MRS. MOORE: What is the language of The only thing -- there are various things. No grading permitted within 50 feet of the top edge of the bluff adjacent to the Sound except such grading as may be necessary to control and remedy erosion or to prevent stormwater from flowing over the edge Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 of the bluff. That's for grading. No sanitary within 100 feet of the top of the bluff. Let's see what else -- MEMBER WEISMAN: No stormwater runoff -- MRS. MOORE: No stormwater runoff, we clearly are not going to do here, in fact, the Trustees required us to have drywells for the pool wash, which in this case we're doing anyway. No, let's see, clearing and cutting of vegetation within 100 feet of the top of the bluff shall be limited to that necessary for maintenance. There is no vegetation here that we're cutting adjacent to the bluff. This is all lawn. MEMBER WEISMAN: explain -- there is Well, actually can you some grass by the deck and then there is an estate fence and then there is a whole area right to the top of the bluff that has been clear-cut that has some remaining small native trees and basically woodchips or thereabouts. So -- MRS. MOORE: No, that still must be the area that we recently got approval for -- because the last time I was there seaward of the fence was privet. Now we have -- that's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 what I was explaining -- the Trustees granted us approval to replace the privet with native vegetation that is probably being conducted right now. So that's a separate permit, but this pool is being proposed all landward of that fence. MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand. I understand. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: But, you know, that I don't understand why that whole swath was clear cut. MRS. MOORE: MRS. MOORE: It has -- How does privet wind up with that kind of depth? I mean it's (inaudible) area. MRS. MOORE: Yes, it grew out of control naturally and it actually was -- it went -- we went through a very, I mean, I'd be happy to give you a transcript of the hearing from the Trustees, which Dave (Inaudible) testified that it is not a native conducive species to being adjacent to the bluff because its shallow root system. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I understand that. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Yes, actually it would be helpful. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I'll be happy to provide that for you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it would be helpful. I'm just trying to understand exactly what happened environmentally, particularly within relationship to the covenants and restrictions imposed by the Planning Board relative to this non- disturbance buffer and the point of clear cutting -- MRS. MOORE: I don't think anybody knew that these covenants existed, quite frankly, cause I asked and I checked to see if there were any covenants and it didn't come up on his title. Now I don't know if the title company didn't find it, but this comes -- I don't know where. This came from you guys, don't know who provided it to you -- MEMBER WEISMAN: We got it from the LWRP. MRS. MOORE: Oh, the LWRP, okay. He found it, but my client wasn't aware that there was this prohibition. In any case, the jurisdiction to address revegetation landward Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 of the bluff would be the Trustees. So it was presented, it was approved by them. That's all I can tell you that it was done with a very specific revegetation plan. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the point in question is I have to tell you I think Joe's swimming pool plan is very unique and very, very nice, but I think we're barred from dealing with it unless you go to the Planning Board. I think you have a certain right to mention all the stuff that's up there now, so maybe you want to do that rather than have this -- MRS. MOORE: Again, I would point out that the covenants -- we are more than 50 feet, I mean, the only thing we would have to do for excavation for a pool it would require you can't do it within 50 feet from the edge of the bluff, but we're not within 50 feet. The clearing and cutting of vegetation within 100 feet, as you point out, none of us realized that this covenant existed. We may have required the Planning Board to give the okay to the Trustees to do it to give us the approval, but that doesn't impact our pool Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 application. There's nothing here that prohibits us from -- it doesn't say no structures within 100 feet. I think that's what you're interpreting that these covenants say and I don't see it. Again, number one is no lot line changes, okay. Number two is no grading within 50 feet, which we're not doing. Three, no sanitary shall be installed within 100 feet of the top of the bluff. We would have had issues on the sanitary design that got approved by everybody, but that's not being -- we're actually not -- we don't want to do that plan. No stormwater runoff resulting from development or improvement of subdivision or any other lots shall be discharged down the face of the bluff or directly onto Long Island Sound in any manner, which we are absolutely not doing. Number five is clearing and cutting vegetation within 100 feet and as I said there is no vegetation that we're cutting or clearing for this pool application and then number six the access beach along the Sound shall be by means suitable structure designed and constructed in a manner which will result PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 in the least disturbance and stability of the bluff. I think there is, yeah, there are stairways now. So there is nothing here that precludes our making this application or asking permission from the Planning Board to make this application. MEMBER WEISMAN: The current lot coverage is? MRS. MOORE: Okay, the current lot coverage, well, under the -- based on the buildable land definition -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I want to know. MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's 22.6 percent. MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're proposing? MRS. MOORE: 27.5 percent and as I pointed out that all the properties in this area were developed and their pools were developed before the change in the definition and our lot would be otherwise being developed at 16.3 percent. So the 20 percent lot coverage -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I do have to say we -- you bring that up again and again and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 again -- MRS. MOORE: relevant, so -- MEMBER WEISMAN: the law has changed, I know because I think it's I have to say that once it's changed for a reason, it's changed because of significant environmental impacts. It's changed equally for everybody not just for your clients and it's not a hardship. You know, we have to calculate lot coverage not based on what the law was, but what it is now. It changed for a reason. MRS. MOORE: I understand your point, but my point is that -- MEMBER WEISMAN: So the proposed lot coverage is 28 percent. MRS. MOORE: 27.5 -- MEMBER WEISMAN: 27.5. MRS. MOORE: I give you that and technically 27.5 percent is; however, when you are looking at the character of the area and how the community has been developed, I believe it's very relevant to know that all the properties in this area have been developed under the prior definition and that Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 this property within the character of the area within our lot coverage increase would be at 16.3 percent. MEMBER SIMON: Pat, I'm trying to identify the principle that you're working from. Namely what you're saying is if there was a situation where things were built and a law was passed that changed this, what does that do to the argument that said when something is prohibited it would have been allowed had it been done before the law changed. What's MRS. MOORE: the law changed, the point to that principle? But again I point out that and I also point it out in my written, they based it, the lot coverage was based on landward of the Coastal Erosion line. The Coastal Erosion line is a map that arguable could be a 25-50 foot area of difference because it's a -- the scale and the line on the map. So when you are basing your lot coverage on a Coastal Zone line, which is an imprecise line, I'm pointing out that that is, one, I think it's poorly legislated to begin with, but I understand that's not your issue -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: It's relevant to the amount of people (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: It's relevant with respect to how the community has been developed, which MEMBER SIMON: But are you -- what you may be saying is and this may be a legitimate case of interpretation, that when the Town Board amended the law it never occurred to them that there'd be a problem about Coastal Erosion Hazard lines and things like this so therefore we can disregard that. MRS. MOORE: I don't know that you -- I don't know that you're prepared to disregard it, I think you need -- MEMBER SIMON: Well, you're suggesting that we do. MRS. MOORE: No, no. I am putting on the record, I give you the actual lot coverage based on the Code's requirement and that is 27.5, which is not the 20 percent. MEMBER SIMON: a significant increase over It's pretty big. It's -- MRS. MOORE: But the existing -- but what I'm saying is that these properties when they Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 relevant MRS. argument? were subdivided back in the '80s, which isn't that long ago, and the houses were all developed in this community that this house was developed under current definition at 22.6 and when you look at the surrounding community they're equally -- the houses I gave you the aerial of the two homes next door which are just as large and have significant pools. MEMBER SIMON: I still don't understand your argument for exempting this particular house from changes in the law. MRS. MOORE: Well, I've never said I asked to exempt, I'm pointing it out -- MEMBER SIMON: That's what it comes down to. You're making the -- MRS. MOORE: I think it is relevant to the application; it's up to you whether you find my argument credible or not, but I think it is a relevant point. MEMBER SIMON: It's relevant, what you're saying is gosh if the law hadn't been changed, this would have been fine and that's a point. MOORE: Are you understanding my Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: I don't know what legal point it has -- MRS. MOORE: Maybe (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, let's -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go back to the concrete. MRS. MOORE: Okay the concrete application. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The concrete is size of the pool MRS. MOORE: up and -- 136 the is what? Okay, Joe why don't you come lots of questions, come on up, Joe. Let me give, Joseph give you some background. MR. FISCHETTI: Sure. MRS. MOORE: You have I'd be happy to -- MR. FISCHETTI: Fischetti. Let me MRS. MOORE: Are you listening? MEMBER WEISMAN: I am. MR. FISCHETTI: -- so you can understand what's happening here. When the house was built it was built an upside down house. The living areas were on the second floor and the first floor is really basically a basement Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 cause the back of it is partially underground. So the floor is really -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I could never figure the house out anyway. I've been there three times. MR. FISCHETTI: It's a crazy house. It's something that the builder used so he could double the house. the living areas. habitable spaces, The second floor is really The first floor has some but basically it's the second floor. So everything is on the second floor. When you come out of that area on the deck, you're coming out to your deck and your living area. So the swimming pool had to be up high to really get a good relationship with the deck and the living areas and the way we did it was to raise some patios and we raised the patios to give that structure some feeling that it wasn't up in the air, that it would be real structure. So we put some -- we raised the pool. It's sitting on the grade and the two patios on either side are basically retaining walls filled with soil and when you -- yeah. And the existing decks will stay the same on the side. So you walk off of decks PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 and patios. It's a good relationship, we worked with (inaudible) on doing that. So that's the reason for the elevation on it. You step down a couple of levels to the patios and then you step down to the grade, which is the grass areas. MEMBER WEISMAN: Joe, what's the height of the retaining walls? MR. FISCHETTI: They're -- the walls are about 6-foot high because the deck itself is about 7 feet high. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I thought. MR. FISCHETTI: So the walls are -- these are just walls, 6.6 feet from the existing grade. 6 feet, so you could step down from those instead of having wooden decks, we made patios and it kind of changed the texture as you're going out. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you go over the size of the pool again, please? FISCHETTI: It's 34 feet by I think MR. 14. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, with that 4-foot that is the infinity. MR. FISCHETTI: Yes, the -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 lip 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's a 4-foot spillover? MR. FISCHETTI: 4-foot spillover, 14 foot with a 4-foot spillover, 34 foot inside dimensions longwise. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and you're calculating that distance to the pool at what to the top of the bluff? MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, the pool distance, I just want to clarify the length -- MR. FISCHETTI: 80 feet. MRS. MOORE: I think that's at 36. 36 is the length from the outside wall versus the inside, so it's 34 inside, 36 -- 34 inside wall to wall of the pool. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: 36 exterior rim to exterior rim. MR. FISCHETTI: And your question was pool is 80.3 feet. MRS. MOORE: 80.3. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. Is there any chance of getting the original subdivision map lot line shown on this survey so that when we go back to the Planning Board we can tell the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 140 ZBA Town of Southold July 30, 2009 them that this is what we have and what's your opinion regarding the C&Rs cause we'll make the presentation to the Planning Board so that there's no questions about any of these lots up here anymore. MRS. MOORE: I mean, I'll look -- I'll see if we can get the filed map. Probably this is the file map. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a filed map. MRS. surveyor, MOORE: Yeah, so we can ask the we'll see what we can do to give you the top of the bluff. the bluff that we have we're not sure when 85 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: that for us? MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Yeah, cause the top of is at 12/18/03 date so Okay, so you'll do I can provide that. You know, again I point out on the record that the C&Rs don't prevent you from -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. I just want to make sure the Planning Board is aware of the fact that this is the situation and that there are pool s that have been granted up there. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Oh, absolutely. Well, there's all kinds of things that have been granted up there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: on the opposite side many, We granted a pool many years ago. MRS. MOORE: The eastern one, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And there are such large houses coming up and we told a man to build a house without the pool and the setback we originally settled on actually put one of the major egregious structural piers in the middle of the pool. So he built it in the middle of the pool and that was it. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: The house was obviously built so that there's no way you could put it in the front yard or side yard because of the garage. MRS. MOORE: No, MEMBER WEISMAN: there so -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: right. You need the driveway As I said, Joe, I've never seen a floor plan like that. You know, I was in there during construction -- MR. FISCHETTI: I've done it for my Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 142 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 brother where you want the views, upside down houses all the time. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, but with a grand stairwell like that and (inaudible)? MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean it's a little over the top. MR. FISCHETTI: (Inaudible) okay. Did you see his artwork? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. MR. FISCHETTI: His artwork is over the top, but very good. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean it's a beautiful house. MEMBER WEISMAN: Ken and I wanted to know, we have these photographs, we also saw some stakes while we were there. They represent what? MRS. MOORE: Okay, the stakes, the furthest out stake is where the stairs end. The stakes are the corners of the pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: The furthest stake is the stairs. MRS. MOORE: There are, let me pull the pictures. I know, I looked at it, too, and-- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: From your isonometric, it looks as though you're cutting back or cutting into the existing deck, yes? MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: And you have some substantial stairs there already, so this is being cut back, this is being set in and you've got a 6-1/2 foot high stone retaining wall (inaudible) I presume? MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: With an elevated pool. The pool is higher because to grade, I would imagine, and these are now impervious stone with terraces. MRS. MOORE: Pervious. MEMBER WEISMAN: They're pervious? MR. FISCHETTI: They will be brick and sand, so they'll still be pervious. MEMBER WEISMAN: So they'll drain through to the underneath. Okay, but from this I'm trying to relate this to this. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, let me -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Because it looks like, if you're cutting into the existing deck and this is setback so much closer to the water Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 than what this looks like, then what are we MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'm just gonna put "end of stairs". Okay, (inaudible) sure -- MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, I remember that's what the Trustees said. MRS. MOORE: This is the end of the stairs? MR. FISCHETTI: Right and these are the interior of the pool. MRS. MOORE: And the interior pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: So then these are the MRS. MOORE: Ail end of the pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: You can do that on here. stairs? of these are the pool, These inner ones, these must be where the retaining wall goes in? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we marked -- MEMBER WEISMAN: There? MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER SCHNEIDER: correct. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, edge of everything. MR. FISCHETTI: That's where the -- Visually, it's that's the outside Yeah, the edge of the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: And then these two are the end of the staircase. MRS. MOORE: Yes, the end of the staircase. We wanted -- we had to show the closest point, which would be the staircase and then the interior stakes (inaudible). MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: And if we said to you the lot coverage is too substantial, can you reduce it? MRS. MOORE: Well, it's hard, but -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why does this spillover have to be four feet? MR. FISCHETTI: It could probably be two feet. I thought that there might be some flexibility there. I have to talk to the contractor. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you ask him and see if you can reduce the square footage that way? MRS. MOORE: Okay. Yeah, that won't change the whole design. Yeah, cause other parts are the existing decking. So -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need an amended diagram then, if you do that. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we'll give you the square footage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean in a -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, if we're able to pull back the spill line, then the decking will also come back. So we'll give you that entire dimension assuming that it works technically - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: question is that a spill, MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: a vicious spillover. It's spillover. MR. FISCHETTI: I mean the point in excuse me, Pat. A spillover is not a controlled No, what happens is the volume, I didn't do the design, but the volume in there has to be large enough to hit the pump and back in again for the overflow. So I have to talk to him and maybe we can find someplace else to put that volume. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. FISCHETTI: We don't need that distance. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Go with depth. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, go with depth. Okay, anything else, anybody? Anybody else like to speak for or against this? Okay, so we're going to -- are we closing this hearing or are we leaving it open? MEMBER WEISMAN: I think Linda said the fax machine was jammed or something, so just BOARD ASST.: There may be a letter coming in and the fax is jammed. So -- MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: have to unjam it, file. (Inaudible) the neighbor -- (Inaudible) machine so I but it'll be added to the CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So wait a minute. We're waiting for -- we're gonna get you to put the original top of the bluff on the survey, okay, you're gonna check the spillway situation and the possible reduction of the deck, maybe we should leave it open. MRS. MOORE: Okay. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, leave it open. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we'll do that - - we're loaded for August. September group. MRS. MOORE: September is October 1st, right? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, I'll make a motion adjourning the hearing until October 1st. MRS. MOORE: Okay, for the record I did try to -- Mr. and Mrs. Levine tried reaching me and they never gave me their correct phone number. So I tried calling, if they call you tell them to call me. I left a message on the answer -- the cell phone answering machine of the wife, the number I had gotten from you. I don't know if it went through or not. BOARD ASST.: Did you do the mailing that we talked about the other day? MRS. MOORE: No, I couldn't because it's only two days ago. BOARD ASST.: I know but, well I didn't know until two days ago what you did and -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I tried -- no, what I tried to do was call because I sent him a copy to the address -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold July 30, 2009 BOARD ASST.: Please send another mailing to them, tell them it's on for October 1st, certified mail. We'd like to have the certified receipts to the -- MRS. MOORE: Do we know their address though? BOARD ASST.: It's on the Assessor's Office records, if not -- MRS. MOORE: Well -- BOARD ASST.: I'll get it for you, I can't while I'm here. MRS. MOORE: Would you? No, no, of course. I'm not sending it out tomorrow. BOARD ASST.: Tomorrow I can answer your questions on that. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's fine. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 HEARING %6302 - Joseph and Joanna Chernushka MEMBER WEISMAN: "Location of Property: East Marion; CTM 31-18-20.1 640 Rabbit Lane, (adjacent to Gardiners Bay). Requests for Variances under Sections 280-116B and 280-124, based on an application for a building permit for additions and alterations to the existing dwelling, and the Building Inspector's March 13, 2009 Notice of Disapproval, for the reasons that the new construction will be: a) less than code-required minimum 75 feet from the bulkhead; b) less than a minimum 10 ft. single side yard; c) less than 25 feet for combined side yard setbacks; d) less than the code-required minimum rear yard setback of 35 feet; e) greater than the code limitation of 20% lot coverage on this parcel containing less than 4,700 square feet of buildable area." Let me just clarify the application as PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 applied for. The proposed setback from the bulkhead is at 19 feet. The minimum side yard is 4.6 feet as proposed. The combined side yard is 20.3 feet as proposed. The rear yard setback is 26 feet as proposed. The Code lot -- the proposed lot coverage is 30.9 percent as proposed. Okay, so would you like to make some comments? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Say your name for the record. MS. MARTIN: Amy Martin of Fairweather Brown, 205 Bay Avenue, Greenport representing Joseph and Joanna Chernushka about the cottage at 640 Rabbit Lane, East Marion. Also, Mr. Chernushka is also here with us. I have a couple of clarifications on our application that I just want to iterate because when I was reviewing these we had made this application back in April and the design and working drawings were not then completed. I had made the assumption that the application would be a winterized house; it is not. The only thing that is being done is the second proposed floor is reworked it will have insulation only for the purpose of keeping the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 elements out, not -- it is not to be a heated space. This is a seasonal fishing cottage and it is hoped to remain a seasonal fishing cottage. It won't require an energy calculation to go through the Building Department as such. The other changes were that we were asked to add the Coastal Hazard Line to the survey and our site plans were also asked to show the buildable and unbuildable -- non-bu£1dable square footage to survey and site plan and we had done that as requested. I had also made the assumption in the application that the raising of the house to meet the flood plain requirements for AE9 were going to be on sona tubes, they are not. It will be block construction similar to what is there now, only it will be four feet higher to meet the flood plain regulations. It's currently at 7 foot 4 from the grade level and it needs to be 11 foot 3, we're proposing it at 11 foot 3 to be above the -- 2 feet above the 9 foot elevation level. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So Amy, what are you doing? You're taking that existing PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 153 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 building and lifting it to 11 foot 3? MS. MARTIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MS. MARTIN: Basically all the owners want to do is make the upstairs habitable space. It's the only thing that they've asked. It's got two little dormers and in order to do this, it's considered because it's only a 558 square feet house, it's considered a 50-percent renovation by making the second story because we have to also reconfigure the stairway down to meet Code. So we're not changing anything whatsoever to the footprint of the house, except for removing an existing fireplace that's on the outside. There's a large chimney that's on one side of the house that will be removed. There will be no fireplace in the revised structure. So to skip to the heart of things, basically every single nonconformance for which we were disapproved is exactly what were all preexisting. We're not asking to do anything but lift the house up and have it meet flood plain Code because by making the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 154 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 upstairs habitable we have to do that. So the only -- I mean, I've got all kinds of things that we've -- we went before the Trustees and there's a major problem with the fact that we received the LWRP resolution two days before the Trustee hearing, so we weren't able to do any remediation with any environmental group to get input, but what we do know is since we applied we have done -- since we got the LWRP and the letter from you saying that you wanted us to -- we had (inaudible) (inaudible) leeching pools LWRP has asked that me move make these (inaudible) and the the house back behind the Coastal Hazard Line. Now, every house on that block has one corner at least that goes ahead of that line. Our house goes ahead of that line approximately 5 foot 6 inches where, like was stated in the previous application, that line is based on one inch equals 200 feet on that map that the LWRP uses. So if give that line the possibility little tiny plot would be 8 or you were to that on this 10 feet wide, we're really only 6 inches back from the front edge of that line as it's drawn on the Coastal Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 ZBA Town of Southotd - July 30, 2009 Hazard Line. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're saying that 61.8 square feet is that what you're referring to, that little wedge piece? MS. MARTIN: Yes. Yes, seaward of the Coastal Hazard Line as our surveyor has used the center of that line on the Coastal Hazard map and it's what we had on our site plan. So we're saying that double line is what could be construed as the Coastal Hazard Line as it's drawn. Now -- MEMBER SCHNEIDER: On either side -- MS. MARTIN: Yeah, there's 5 feet either side. Some people say it's 8 feet wide, some people say it's 10 feet wide. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask you a question, in reference to moving the house back, in order to provide the height that you need the movers are gonna have to come in and pick this house up anyway -- MS. MARTIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in reality moving it back a couple of feet isn't gonna make that much of a difference. MS. MARTIN: It wouldn't except for the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 location of the leeching pool. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The leeching pool or the cesspools? MS. MARTIN: The leeching pool is 6 foot 6 from the existing rear corner of the building. There is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You mean the existing leeching pool? MS. MARTIN: The existing leeching pool. According to the Building Department because we're going from two bedrooms to two bedrooms and the only change to the house is being lifted up, we would not have to upgrade the septic -- these cesspools. For the wetlands Trustees to pass us, we had already, before we came to you, we had already took off the table the fact that this had a nonconforming, somebody before the Chernushkas, had bought it in 1990 and had put bedrooms in the cottage in what was the garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MS. MARTIN: We have Right. said that we will take that and make that back into a garage. As a garage, it's allowed to have a bathroom and a sink. To make the Trustees happy about Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 the fact that we couldn't move the house back because the existing leeching pool is there, he has agreed to totally remove the bathroom out of the garage; therefore, making the impact on this area less. It is a seasonal fishing cottage that has been a seasonal fishing cottage for 60 years. The Chernushkas own another house in East Marion that is only a weekend cottage that they enjoy. It is not something that is going to be a year-round thing because it just would require too much to do. MEMBER WEISMAN: Excuse me, Amy, this was a part of the hearing with the Trustees to remove -- MS. MARTIN: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: The return of the garage to a non-habitable space. MS. MARTIN: Well, actually before we came to you, we had to agree to that. That's the only way because the person who owned the home before they bought it had done these changes, they didn't have a CO for it -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MS. MARTIN: -- and it was not discovered Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 158 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 at the closing. It was -- he was an attorney and didn't make that disclosure. So the Chernushkas bought this thinking that everything was in place and it was not and they are very happy to put it back to the garage, take out any, you know, bedroom facilities that are in there, and we're also going to remove the shower. Now, they have made the concession to also remove the bathroom and sink and it will be just a garage with electricity in it. It will not have any running water. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so this is part of the Trustee permit. MS. MARTIN: Permit. And they 4-1 approved that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you don't have to move it back? MS. MARTIN: So we don't have to move it back according to them and I understand the LWRP and it's serious meaning to especially (inaudible) properties and whatever, but I think, as even stated in Mr. Terry's recommendations, this is a situation where there would be a considerable hardship to move PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 159 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 this house back because if they are -- do any work to these leeching pools that exist, they would have to create one of those 4-foot walls, above ground fields of pools, which is so out of character with the neighborhood and the use that it would be much more of a detriment to the community than this seasonal little cottage with its three leeching pools. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me ask another question. Right now there is a permanent structure over the deck, there's a seaward deck which is just posts with a, you know, wooden -- MS. MARTIN: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- actually, sunscreen just to avoid rain. MS. MARTIN: It's a roof, yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: But I mean it's there primarily just to avoid sun and rain. MS. MARTIN: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Can that be removed and just a retractable awning put on for the same purpose? MS. MARTIN: The plan that is before you has a second floor balcony that comes out and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that little roof is there still in that -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It is there, but you're proposing to use it as a second floor balcony? MS. MARTIN: Well, just for that one bedroom that there is a railing around it. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, right. So you're going to leave it and you're proposing to use it as an exterior second floor deck? MS. MARTIN: Yes, but unlike the current little -- I mean, it's not gonna be any larger than what you currently see. It will just have a little -- it'll be room for two chairs to sit out there, but unlike the current situation it will all have leaders and gutters and take the water that the roof runoff that now goes over the bulkhead landward. Now, according to the Trustees in that area they don't want drywells because it is totally sand. They jut want the water to go back off the property, off the lead edge and they don't require drywells as such to be there because it just leeches through. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does your client have any objection to a covenant indicating that this shall remain as a seasonal cottage? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 Just mention it to us on the record, sir. I apologize. Just state your name. MR. CHERNUSHKA: Joseph Chernushka. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MR. CHERNUSHKA: Good afternoon. Well, we don't have any objection to it being a seasonal cottage that is what exists and it's used as. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason and I always like to give you the background on the whole situation, okay, we have one down in New Suffolk where we had a similar type of application on and the person made it a year- round structure. They live in trailers out here as year-round structures, I guess they could live in this building as well. I mean, I know it's a little brisk in the wintertime, but -- BOARD ASST.: Which is being converted to a garage? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is a cottage that's being converted to a garage. No, I'm referring to covenants on the house. MEMBER WEISMAN: They're gonna remove the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 162 ZBA Town of Southold July 30, 2009 nonconforming illegal, no C O on the habitable second dwelling and turn it into a garage. BOARD ASST.: Oh, I didn't know what -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in order to keep that remedy in place, meaning that it remain as a seasonal cottage, the covenant would say that you are going to keep it as a seasonal cottage, which very simply means no heat. BOARD ASST.: In the main building. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In the main building. MR. CHERNUSHKA: I understand that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, I'm gonna be honest with you on the record, that doesn't mean you can't plug in an electric heater if you're there in October, okay? But we're talking about a sophisticated heating system, okay, making it a year-round house. Okay, that's what we're talking about. That's what we're understanding from your person -- the agent that's representing you and it sounds like you don't want to do anything else other than what you have; is that correct? MR. CHERNUSHKA: That's correct. CHAIRMAN GOENRINGER: So, therefore, you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 wouldn't have any objection to that? MR. CHERNUSHKA: I have no objection to that, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. MEMBER WEISMAN: I would like to say that given the character of that, the history and character of that neighborhood, I welcome seeing something as modest as what you're proposing. The elevations are really in keeping with the nature architecturally with the spirit of the community. When you look at a couple of the other renovations there, these enormous, you know, boxes that have been built are completely out of character, totally out of scale for probably a similar reason and wanting to make them year-round dwellings. It has really created an incredible shift in the beautiful kind of seasonal scale of that whole Rabbit Lane and I really welcome an application that respects some of that quality and character and does not attempt to conflate these tiny little lots with excessive lot coverage into something beyond what they were intended to be, you know, those sort of Coney Island boardwalk. As an architect, it makes Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 my eyes hurt. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Changing the subject, did you ever get a price on a sanitary project like you were discussing? MS. MARTIN: I originally spoke to Chris (inaudible) and he said that the pools alone not recessed, this is what he said to me, he felt that there wasn't room on the property to construct the kind of system that would be needed without total removal of the garage and CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MS. MARTIN: And that cost aside, the removal of the garage, just to construct the above ground plus it would be as ugly as the one at {inaudible) that is way above ground and -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That is horrible. MS. MARTIN: -- quite totally out of character to the neighborhood. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's property line to property line. MS. MARTIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know what you do with your cars. You can't drive on top PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 of them. MS. park on It's as MARTIN: And you have to be able to your own property not on the road. I said the character of the neighborhood would be totally destroyed by it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MS. MARTIN: The other thing is moving the house back takes away whatever view the people on the landward side have of the water because as the box gets closer to you you lose any peripheral vision you had, whereas, you know, we're trying to do the minimal. We wouldn't be doing (inaudible) if it wasn't the 50 percent (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, to everybody's point though, it's probably better that you do the raising anyway because those blocks have been there for a long time and they've done their service. MS. MARTIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no question about it. MS. MARTIN: And it has been approved as being safe. The building movers have looked Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 at it and the engineers have decided that it will structurally handle the raising and we'll work out the details on how (inaudible) where the water does go and that's all things that we'll work on. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, can you submit a transcript of the hearing, the Trustees' hearing? MS. MARTIN: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you do that? I have to write the finding, I'd rather -- MS. MARTIN: That only happened last -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so as soon as it's available. MS. MARTIN: Yes, as soon as it's available I will get that to you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you, sir. We thank you, ma'am. MR. CHERNUSHKA: Thank you. MS. MARTIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody else would like to speak in favor or against this? Any further questions from Board PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 members? I just have to say this ritualistically. Hearing none and seeing none, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision pending the transcript of the Trustees' hearing. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold - July 30, 2009 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was prepared using four-track electronic transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the Hearings. Denise Gasowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: August 23, 2009 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355