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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
June 25, 2009
9:45 a.m.
Board Menfoers Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KENNETH SCHNEIDER - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
ABSENT: RUTH OLIVA - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Durante and Anna Galeotafiore #6286 3-32
Michael and Kathleen Miggins #6285 33-48
S. and D. Villareal #6288 49-97, 136-144
Angelica Bergolea and Iskender Erey #6283 98-106
Michael and Robin Drews #6282 107-127
Joe and Ronnie Ruggieri #6291 128-135
Spiro Geroulanos #6290 145-159
Michael Conway #6287 160-163
Daniel and Nancy Fischer #6292 164-187
BABS Corp. #6284 188-225
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6286 - Durante and Anna
Galeotafiore
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variances, based on an
application for a building permit and the
Building Inspector's December 2, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning new additions and
alterations to the existing single-family
dwelling. Variances are requested: (1) under
Section 280-122 and Code Interpretation under
ZBA #5039 (Walz), and for the reason that
construction is proposed with an increase in
the degree of nonconformance with regard to
existing nonconforming single side yard, and
each front yard, and; (2) under Section 280-
124 for additions at less than 10 feet on a
minimum single side yard setback, at less than
35 feet from the front lot lines along Hobart
Road, and at less than 35 feet from the front
lot line along Old Shipyard Lane. Location of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Property: 2635 Hobart Road (and Old Shipyard
Lane), Southold; CTM 1000-64-5-31."
If anyone is here for that, do you want
to come up and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Notaro. Just
state your name for the record. Yes, sir.
MR. NOTARO: My name is Frank Notaro.
I'm the architect for my clients and I can
answer any questions that you may have.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, actually I do have
a couple of questions. Let's just make sure
we understand it.
We have a situation with two front yards,
the additions are basically going in the
architectural rear yard and some small ones on
either side of the front elevation. The front
yard setback is 18.5 on Old Shipyard Lane and
the front yard setback of 25.8 on Hobart, the
code requires 35 feet in both situations and
the third is for a side yard setback of 9.8
feet and the code requires 10 feet. Is that
your take on this?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: If I may add one thing. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
front porch needs to be removed, it's just on
locust posts and it has to -- it really needs
work so that's why we'd be taking that front
enclosed porch down and just extending it to
fill in those two spaces we show on the
survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
structure with (inaudible),
the same.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Notaro, could
you pull that mike closer to you on this side
around the corner?
MR. NOTARO: I'm sorry, say that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you pull that
mike closer to you on the side?
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Either way and lift
it up a little bit cause we're not getting
you. That's wonderful, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Questions here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't see on the
survey that I have, which is this one, I don't
see the existing shed that's on the premises.
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okay. So then the
but the setback is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Yeah, when we went out to do site inspections
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- I --
MR. NOTARO: I mean that certainly, that
was there when I started the project with the
client.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm sure. I'm
just saying it doesn't show up on this survey
and we probably should have it noted. The
other question that I actually have is that
this survey indicates a depth on the back of
18.5 for the addition; is that right? 18 feet
5 inches and 15.4 feet along the entire back.
MR. NOTARO: I just want to look at my
plan a moment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, just double check
it.
MR. NOTARO: No, that's not correct.
It's a 10-foot addition off the back of the
existing house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ah, that makes more
sense because --
MR. NOTARO: I mean that's what our plan
shows.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- if you look at this
and you try to scale it, not easy --
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- this looks like it's,
you know, not very deep and it's set back
substantially from --
MR. NOTARO: Right, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- this side yard;
however, in pacing out what the dimension is
on here it would be very close to the side
yard and it would have a significant impact on
the neighbors through the openness through
that backyard. So I guess what I'm asking is
maybe we need to have some more accurate -- if
you're saying that this addition on the back
is not 18.5, it's 10 feet --
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me check your plan.
I'm sure your plans are more accurate than
your survey.
MR. NOTARO: Unfortunately, getting the
surveys from this person was very difficult.
BOARD ASST.:
you.
MR. NOTARO:
I'm sorry, I'm not hearing
We were just -- getting
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ZBA Towh of Southold - June 25, 2009
surveys from this surveyor was very difficult
and we were just glad to get them back. We
didn't notice that one incorrect number on
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
see --
MR. NOTARO:
You know, I'm looking to
If you look on our drawing -
MEMBER WEISMAN:
page A1 of your plans,
right?
MR. NOTARO: Yes,
-- the changed part on
that's the addition,
right. Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Yeah,
feet.
MR. NOTARO: That's 10 feet.
that's 10
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I think what we
really need is an accurate, you know, we
should proceed and hear all, you know,
anything anybody has to say, but we should get
a survey that reflects the setbacks correctly,
you know, with the proposed addition and the
shed in place.
MR. NOTARO: I believe if I scaled that
off it would be 10 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The setback would be 10
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. NOTARO: No, the
at the 9.9 on the side --
18.5. If you look
MEMBER WEISMAN: Should be 10 feet.
MR. NOTARO: -- of it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. NOTARO: It's basically the same as
the 10-foot. He just didn't change the number
on there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Well, I don't --
I mean you're perfectly qualified to do a plot
plan and, you know, stamp it.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah. True.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean I don't care
whether it comes from you or you get it from
the surveyor, but I think we really have to
have the -- I don't know,
think?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Jerry, what do you
Well, I think, you
know, I think what you should do is after the
construction that you should just submit a
final survey to the Building Department and
give us a copy and I
proper thing to do.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
think that would be the
Well, except I need to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
know what the setbacks of the proposed, we all
need to know what the setback from this
proposed addition to that side yard.
MR. NOTARO: Well, it's showing at 9.8 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean we can
(inaudible) and we can close the hearing
subject to receipt of an updated survey.
That's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well here's
the problem, Leslie. If we had a complete
perpendicular line in the rear, but we have a
line that runs on a diagonal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So where would you
like it from?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The closest point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The closest point.
So the closest point would be on the
southeasterly side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, on that corner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So maybe Mr.
Notaro could scale that for us?
MR. NOTARO: I didn't bring my engineer's
scale.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't mean now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, later.
MR. NOTARO: Let me see if I understand.
I'm looking at a 9.8 distance from the rear
right corner of the existing house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's to --
MR. NOTARO: That's to the side yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's to the side yard.
He said 9.8.
MR. NOTARO: You're referring to the rear
-- the other side yard in the back.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. I'm referring to
the distance between the proposed addition --
MR. NOTARO: Okay, I can prepare a site
plan for you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to this property line
here.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He'll just prepare
a site map.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right,
absolutely. You can do that.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And then with the
correct dimensions for your proposed
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
additions.
MR. NOTARO:
limited life on I
that's why I didn't
there.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
as we have -- I
write this that
MR. NOTARO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
issue with setback.
Let's see what
shed is included.
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
questions, actually.
Again, I would stake my
believe that's to scale,
see that 18-foot number in
Okay. Alright, as long
just want to make sure when I
I have accurate information.
Sure.
Okay, cause it's all
else. Make sure that the
don't have any further
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just wait one
second. Linda has a question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
BOARD ASST.: I just wanted to be -- I'm
sort of confused. You're talking about the
southeast corner of the addition and that
would be on the southwesterly property line or
the southerly property line. Do you mean the
greater distance, the larger rear yard area
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
that goes north?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the lesser with
the diagonal you can see it better.
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, the lesser of the rear
of that back --
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, the diagonal. It's
the same line as that?
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. But the 9.8 was okay
at the closest point?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh sure.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine. It's not
that side yard, it's the --
BOARD ASST.: Rear yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Architectural rear yard,
yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Alright, thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'd just like to see
an updated site plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. Okay, so
MR. NOTARO: I can produce that based on
information on this site plan.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. NOTARO: Because it'll take me
forever to get this revised.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We understand that,
that's the reason why I
facilitate.
MR. NOTARO:
BOARD ASST.:
said whatever you can
Yeah. Okay.
But you're adding the shed,
right, to your site plan?
MR. NOTARO: Yeah. Can I take
measurements, like three-point measurements
off the house?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, that's fine.
MR. NOTARO: And indicate where it is?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
MR. NOTARO: I mean it does have a fixed
foundation.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that -- we got these
Would you also be sure
in two parts and because
of the way it's Xeroxed, the lot coverage is
not an issue, but I just would like to know
what it is. So make sure that I can -- that
it's maybe on larger paper or something so
that I can see, you know, it's actually cut
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
right where it says, "lot coverage =" and then
on the other page it's kind of bleeded out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's proposed at
17.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like 17 and 12,
but I'm not sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Is that right?
Okay, than that's fine.
You'll stamp it
anyway, right?
MR. NOTARO: Yes, I will.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so what, in
effect, is going on here? What are we doing
on the second floor?
MR. NOTARO: Basically, by raising the
mansard roof we get a little more usable space
upstairs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: Right now it has about 6-
foot-three headroom up there, which is not to
Code and they want to utilize that upstairs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You've been -- this
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
is only for everybody's assistance so we don't
see you back again.
MR. NOTARO: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And it's not that
we don't want to see you back, okay.
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You've inspected
the property. The foundation meets those
qualifications to put an elongated roof on and
to change the entire structure, basically, on
the second floor?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's all I
want to say.
MR. NOTARO: We actually, um, we actually
will be adding so portions to that in the --
there's a crawl space and a full basement
portion where the boiler is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. NOTARO: So we will be adding some
space on the foundation to reinforce it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but it's
going to in place, in kind.
MR. NOTARO: In place, yes, of what's
existing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
first story structure will
total teardown?
MR. NOTARO: The first floor structure
should remain. We're not -- I mean, there are
going to be some point loads that have to come
down from the second floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. NOTARO: And we'll address those with
footings in the crawl space and that other
portion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you're
anticipating using a portion of the foundation
as it exists?
MR. NOTARO: Oh, I
of it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
why we're asking this,
MR. NOTARO: Oh,
Okay and -- but the
remain or is this a
Okay, alright.
You know the reason
right?
sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay.
Alrightey. Let's
see what else develops throughout the hearing.
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would say 95 percent
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Thank you.
MR. NOTARO:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else would like to speak
this application?
Thank you.
Is there anyone
in favor or against
Sir, would you come up and use the mike
and state your name for the record?
MR. MARSCHEAN: My name is Dick
Marschean.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you spell
that, sir?
MR. MARSCHEAN: Huh?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you just -- can
I have the spelling of your last name?
MR. MARSCHEAN: M-A-R-S-C-H-E-A-N.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. MARSCHEAN: The present plot plan for
this particular piece of property has right
now existing 645 square feet, according to the
plans. The proposed addition is adding the
lot coverage to 940 square feet, which is 17
percent of the building on the site and that's
without the shed. If you take 20 percent of
the total lot area, 5,392 feet, you get 1,078
square feet. So there's only a delta of 138
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
square feet between the 17 percent that's on
the drawing and the 20 percent that's the
allowed minimum 20 percent to be on the lot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Obviously, the shed takes
more than 138 square feet, the shed that's on
that property. So right now as we sit here or
as we plan here, the proposed addition plus
the shed is more than 20 percent. That's
what's on the paper right now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's why
we're asking for the shed to be placed on the
site plan and we're asking for a proposed lot
coverage. If it exceeds 20 percent --
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yes. It will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, if it does,
I'm not questioning your math in any way, okay
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yeah,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
alright.
-- we have an
engineer producing a site plan and if it does
he has to go back to the Building Department -
MR. MARSCHEAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and he has to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
be denied for a second variance application,
okay, to be incorporated within this variance
application and he has to reapply.
MR. MARSCHEAN: What do you -- why are
you speaking of -- what are you using the word
variance for?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because you're only
allowed 20 percent.
MR. MARSCHEAN: I know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. MARSCHEAN: So and that includes the
-- and the shed would encroach on that right
now as we speak, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I don't know
because I don't know how big the shed is.
MR. MARSCHEAN: It's more than 138 square
feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know what
it is.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Well, I can tell you it's
more than 138 square feet. I live down there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but did you
measure it?
MR. MARSCHEAN: No, I didn't measure it,
but I can --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: The point is, your point
is well taken and that's why we are requesting
the architect that created the survey with the
shed added so that's
MR. MARSCHEAN:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(inaudible) beginning --
So -- (inaudible) speak.
Then he will have to
calculate the total new lot coverage with the
addition and the shed and, as the Chairman
said, if that turns out to be over 20 percent,
he has to go back to the Building Department,
get an amended Notice of Disapproval that
includes asking for a variance for the
addition, which will put the property -- the
lot coverage over 20 percent.
MR. MARSCHEAN: And no construction can
start until all that is done, right?
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Now, the thing is that
the shed you're saying, just so I get your
right, the 20 percent includes any structure,
whether it's a shed or the existing structure
on the site right now, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
tennis court, any of those
those structures.
A swimming pool, a
things. Any of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. MARSCHEAN: Alright, okay. Well,
this particular lot doesn't have a place for a
-- I don't know whether there's a basement
with this house or not because if you look at
the plan that I have in front of me, which I
got from the Building Department, there's a
flood zone line and I know that during one of
the hurricanes this whole particular area from
this house on the corner all the way down to
the beach was under water. So the thing is
that this piece of property really with the --
as it exists right now without any additions
is subject to 3 feet of water plus, with a
hurricane, and I've seen it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Alright. Now, the other
reason I come to speak to you about is not so
much about the details of the property because
I think what we have agreed to is that we need
a new site plan since you have determined or
who was speaking before said the 18.5 foot
that's added onto the back of the house here
is not 18 feet, it's 10 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. MARSCHEAN: And so we need a complete
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
new set of drawings, elevations,
nine yards that go with this --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the whole
No. The drawings are
accurate.
MR. MARSCHEAN: What's that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: His drawings as
submitted to us are accurate. What is not
accurate is the plot plan.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yeah, but the elevations
would be also inaccurate also.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yes, they are. Hey, I'm
an engineer. I know what I'm talking about.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well --
MR. MARSCHEAN: They're wrong. They have
to all be redone. You got right elevations,
you got left elevations. You got --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have those, sir.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yeah, but the thing is
it's got this extra 10 feet. It's not 18
feet, it's now 10 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we --
MR. MARSCHEAN: So if you're going to do
the drawings, let's do the drawings --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let the architect
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
address that.
MR. MARSCHEAN: -- so that they're all
correct and they match. Okay?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They do match.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
architect --
MR. MARSCHEAN:
this
They do, sir. Let the
How can they match if
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because it's only
the survey that's off, sir.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This
drawings are correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is correct. His
It's only the
survey that's off. Now, what I would like you
to do so that we completely get you to
understand what we have --
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- I would like you
to sit down over here with our entire packet
and review it. Okay, so that you understand
it totally. We'll hold the hearing in
abeyance for about a half hour and if for any
reason you think that there is something
incorrect, you then tell us. Okay?
MR. MARSCHEAN: I can tell you that right
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now.
BOARD ASST.: He reviewed it yesterday
for about an hour.
MR. MARSCHEAN: I was here yesterday. I
was in the Building Department.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you're telling
MR. MARSCHEAN:
this drawing here,
The elevation drawings,
this is a plot plan, okay?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MARSCHEAN: This is a plot plan.
Okay, it's no different than any of the other
drawings. You're trying to make this a
distinction between this and the elevations.
The whole thing together is a package that was
submitted to the Building Department for their
approval. So it all goes together. So any
change on this drawing constitutes a change to
the packet and the thing is if it affects any
of the other drawings, they have to also be
changed. So what I'm telling you is that you
don't have a correct set of drawings right now
based on this gentleman saying it's only a 10-
foot setback and it's 15.
Now I didn't want to get into this kind
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
of an argument because I didn't know that this
thing was coming up. I have other reasons to
talk to you about the properties down there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
stop then, at this point?
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, if
Okay, could we just
Mr. Notaro?
I could address --
thank you for bringing up the flood zone to
us. If you notice on the first floor plan --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to
approach the Board regarding that. You just
have to say it forward not to --
MR. NOTARO: Okay, there is a utility
room that is to put the boiler in there. We
have to raise the electrical and that -- but
thank you for bringing that to our attention.
And you are licensed in the state of New York?
MR. MARSCHEAN: Yes, I am.
MR. NOTARO: Okay and your last name is?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, you must
bring your --
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- information, not
necessarily to this gentleman.
MR. NOTARO: The drawing that we gave
you, our architectural drawing shows 10 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
I will present an accurate site plan for your
review.
MR. MARSCHEAN: You're not (inaudible)?
MR. NOTARO: No, I'm not Hogan, I'm Frank
Notaro the architect who drew the
architectural plans.
MR. MARSCHEAN: So you're -- okay.
Alright, that's okay. So the -- okay. So
this particular drawing and the other drawings
are all in with the Building Department's --
in with the supervisor in the Building
Department.
MR. NOTARO: What we do initially is just
issue a very preliminary drawing for
disapproval knowing that there are zoning
issues on a particular property. So they have
preliminary drawings and they write up a
response to that and give it to zoning.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Alright, so when were you
going to let the Building Department know that
there was a 10-foot setback -- 18 rather?
MR. NOTARO: I don't understand the
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need -- excuse
me. This is not between two people. This is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
for the Board to understand. You came here
for that particular reason and now you're
expressing it. You must express your
statements forward to the Board.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what were you
going to say?
MR. MARSCHEAN: I'm just saying the
Building Department needs a complete set of
drawings based upon his information.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MARSCHEAN:
you right now.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
happens.
MR. MARSCHEAN:
That's what I'm telling
We will make sure that
That's the existing
drawings, the elevations drawings, including
the surveyor's drawing also all have to be
submitted to the Building Department and
signed off by the Building Inspector before
any permit for construction shall begin.
That's the law.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We will make sure it
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
happens.
MR. MARSCHEAN: Now, I have
reason to talk to you about this.
is what's bothering me here with
another
The thing
regard to the
area that I live between Hobart and Town
Harbor Road is an area where we have what I
would call sort of a series
put up in the ~60s and ~70s,
most of them with a garage.
of homes that were
story and a half,
Again, this
house, this particular property doesn't have
room for a garage and if you put a garage on
this property, obviously, you're going to
exceed 20 percent without even doing a
calculation. So that may be coming down the
line after I'm dead and buried, I don't know,
but the thing is all I'm just saying to you is
that the houses that are in this area are
story and a half and they have a certain
character in this neighborhood and the thing
that's bothering me is that we spend a lot of
time in this town looking
that developers are going
from farmland and develop
after plots of land
to maybe take over
things and we've
completely lost sight of the fact of the
existing homes that we have with lots that are
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
interspersed that don't have houses on them
where building is taking place in the areas
that I'm talking about where I live, okay.
And the thing is the house that's next to
this house, the one that's right on Shipyard
Lane is the famous two-story house that we
have there. How that ever got approved by you
people I don't know, but that is completely
out of character and it's very ostentatious,
almost as ostentatious as the house that you
have up by the lighthouse up there where the
guy looks down on somebody else's shower and
the one around the bend here on Bayview Avenue
near the Catholic cemetery, the yellow house
there. These are two houses and the third
house is the one that's going to be next to
this one. I'm surprised that the owner of
this house is spending money on this because
he'll never get his money out of this house as
long as that one that's looking down right on
his back porch. It looks right in his
backyard. There's no privacy whatsoever for
the houses all along Hobart Road there as they
face the creek and the people down there two
or three houses down from this house where a
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
guy just told me that they have actually
abandoned their houses. They don't come out
here in the summertime anymore as a summer
house because they don't have any privacy.
So the point I'm making to you, more than
whether plans are right, wrong, or
indifferent, is that you have really not
looked at the areas that are developed already
that have lots that could be possibly
developed. You've spent most of your time on
land preservation, which I have no problems
with, I have no problems against that at all,
saving developments and everything else, but
what you're really doing is you're causing the
character of the areas that I live in and I
live on Hobart Road and I don't want to see it
turn into Coney Island while I'm still alive
and that's what I got to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Okay, are we going to close this hearing
pending this information?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, subject to receipt
of --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Subject to receipt
of it? Okay.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing subject to the receipt of
the information that we're going to get from
Mr. Notaro.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
31-15-13
MRS.
morning.
HEARING %6285 - Michael and
Kathleen Miggins
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"This is a Lot Waiver request under
Article II, Code Sections 280-10A and Section
280-11, based on an application for a building
permit and an application to unmerge
properties for an area of 13,987 square feet
as a separate lot. Based on the Building
Inspector's February 23, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval determination and Article II, Code
Sections 280-10A and Section 280-11, this
13,987 square feet of land are has merged with
the adjacent 8,902 square feet of land area.
Location: 200 East Lane (and adjacent land
known as 555 South Lane), East Marion shown as
County Tax Map Numbers 1000-31-15-12 and 1000-
respectively.''
MOORE: Thank you. Yes, good
We have two parcels here --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to
state your name for the record.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, sorry. Patricia Moore
on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Miggins.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
The parcels are, as was stated, two
nonconforming parcels that are in what is
commonly known as Gardiner's Bay Estates;
however -- section 1, 2, and 3. The improved
parcel appears to have been created through
Zoning Board action in 1957 as Zoning Board
decision #23, which I think is one of the
earliest ones I've read in recent time, that
Zoning Board decision did recite the fact that
this area is of undersized lots and the house
that is on that parcel, which faces South
Lane, is of similar character to the
community.
Mr. and Mrs.
Miggins, when they purchased
the property, were unaware that they merely
had to put one parcel in one family name
versus both of their names. They bought them,
both lots, by separate deed with -- as husband
and wife and, unfortunately, at that time it
merged. The parcel to the north, which would
face East Lane, is an adjacent parcel by the
rear property line of the South Lane parcel.
They face two separate streets. The Miggins
when they purchased this property, O'Neil-
Daley, husband and wife, had owned the parcels
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
-- well, the parcel to the back since
for some
'68 and the house parcel since '71.
Unfortunately, they had merged by death, which
that provision of the Code was corrected. So
we have a continuous single and separate
parcel up until the Miggins purchased it in
the same name. So we think that we are
complying with the provision of the merger
law. They have owned the property, not
transferred it to anyone unrelated. They
still remain as the owners of the parcel.
With respect to recognizing the lot that
is comparable in size to a majority of the
improved lots in the neighborhood, as I said
before, this is the area of Gardiner's Bay
Estates. If you have the opportunity or have
had the opportunity to go down to this area,
you will see houses that are all very similar,
small parcels. The lots are on average
anywhere from 7,000 square feet to 10,000
square feet of varying dimensions. The larger
parcels being on the water, which are narrow
parcels that appear on the map of Gardner's
Bay Estates.
The parcels have been maintained as
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
separate pieces. You will see when you go
down there that the parcel that -- the vacant
parcel that faces East Lane remains wooded,
undeveloped and all that we saw was a concrete
cover, which quite frankly nobody has yet been
able to determine or at least my client has
been unable to determine what that is. It may
have been an old sanitary system. It may have
been an old well site. Gardiner's Bay Estates
does have public water and the house does have
public water. So that is the only improvement
on the vacant parcel and, as I said, in the
old days, often times, nobody got surveys
between -- before sanitary systems were dug.
So it's very likely it could be an old
sanitary system.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The house was
purchased when, Pat?
MRS. MOORE: This particular -- the house
was purchased -- let me just make sure I have
the right date. I'm sorry, I have it right
here. The house was purchased in '99 from the
O'Neil-Daley family. Mrs. Daley,
unfortunately, passed away and Mr. Daley, as
the surviving spouse, transferred the house to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Mr. and Mrs. Miggins.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And when was the
lot purchased?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
what you said.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When was the lot
purchased? Oh, the --
MRS. MOORE: Both parcels were purchased
at the same time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes.
As I said, it would have been a very
simple avoidance of the merger had they
realized that if they merely put the one
parcel in just the husband or the wife's name.
They weren't aware of it and in '99 when they
purchased, the correction to the merger law
with husband and wife when there is a death
had not yet been established. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is Town water
there?
MRS. MOORE: To my knowledge there is
Town water, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Town water or a
centralized water system.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Yes, a public water system,
yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
system.
A public water
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I just want to
make sure I've got the -- the improved lot is
13,987 and the adjacent lot that you wish to
unmerge is 8,902 square feet?
MRS. MOORE: Uh, let me just double check
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or it's the other way
around.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I'm looking -- yeah, I
have separate surveys in your file, but the
improved parcel is 8,902.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, then the bigger
one is the one --
MRS. MOORE: The bigger one is 13,987,
which happens to be larger than most of the
lots in that area. That parcel we think was
created by Mr. Thorpe by deed. It may have
been an area that was retained by Mr. Thorpe
for future Gardiner's Bay
Estates IV, but by then the zoning had
changed. So --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
have any further questions.
no further
questions.
I don't think I
Is there anybody
else would like to be heard on this
application?
Would you like to use that one or do you
want to cross to the other side?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, go ahead. I --
MR. KRAMER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
the record, sir.
MR. KRAMER: Good morning, my name is
Gregory Kramer and I'm here on behalf of my
wife Elizabeth Kramer who is the owner of 85
East Lane and that is the property that is
across the street from this, 200 East Lane,
and I'm here to oppose the application.
The purpose of my opposition is that the
area over the past 10 years has become more
developed. There -- this property sits on a
block where there's a -- the most recent
construction was on a parcel that was
approximately 0.80 acres, substantially larger
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
than this lot. I understand that there is a
history to this parcel, but many people are
burdened by the merger law and although it's
unfortunate that some people do lose the
ability to build on a lot because of the
merger law, I think the spirit of the law is
that we're trying to preserve the open space
and we're trying to see properties on larger
parcels that are unique to this area.
My home is on a parcel that's 0.6 acres.
The parcel next door that's immediately across
the street from 200 is on a half an acre. The
waterfront properties are perhaps comparable
to the 13,000-square-foot area that this
parcel is on, but the parcel on the corner,
that's on the corner of South Lane and East
Lane, that's quite a small parcel. It's just
over 8,000 square feet. So the merger
actually of these two properties actually
gives that total area that they have now about
21,000 square feet, which I think that size is
more in keeping with the area that we're
talking about. So we're opposing the
application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. KRAMER: I would also mention that
there are some other neighbors. I don't
personally know the Miggins', but there are
some other neighbors who do know them and
they're not here today because of their
relationship and I think they don't want to do
something like that to their friend, but they
are not happy about this application. I know
I'm perhaps the only one opposing it today,
but there are others who are not happy about
this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. KRAMER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, is there
a possibly that you could -- you've done this
in the past, I don't want you to do the whole
subdivision, but could you do the immediate
area and tell us what's vacant and what's not?
MRS. MOORE: Sure, I can provide that for
you. That's no problem. Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you provide
that?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, within a
two street area. We're not talking about --
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, within the surrounding
streets, I would imagine, the Gardiner's Bay
Estates.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: I have no problem. I would
like to point out though that the improved
parcel on South Lane was the subject of a
Zoning Board, as I pointed out before, the
Zoning Board approval, and the prior law, I
don't think this one has it, but it exempt in
a sense a lot that had gotten Zoning Board
approval. So the improved parcel in and of
itself, got it's own -- got approval to be
developed. So we are now merging it to a
vacant lot or the vacant lot is now merging to
a vacant lot that was previously approved by
Zoning Board action.
So it does create a very unusual
circumstance here that we're adding land to a
parcel that had Zoning Board -- had been
granted a Zoning Board variance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have a copy
of that variance?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, it's in your packet.
Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: It's number 23.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we have it.
We do have it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, I know you do. It was
setbacks and it was a recognition that the lot
had already been or was the balance of land
that was owned by Thorpe after he had sold off
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I remember.
MRS. MOORE: It's within your vintage?
BOARD ASST.: That was quite a while ago,
about 15 years ago.
MRS. MOORE: No, No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
No, in 1957.
MRS. MOORE: In 1957.
BOARD ASST.: Oh, 1957.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's how the lot got
developed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Zoning Code at that time,
published in a newspaper.
there wasn't a book of zoning.
BOARD ASST.: And there wasn't a merger
law back then either.
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There wasn't even a
it was actually
In other words,
ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: But I don't know why it was
that then the Zoning Board -- well, it got
setbacks.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, setbacks. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it's a corner
lot, too. So --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. It is a corner lot.
I will provide that for you. One aspect
that I always find and I think is important to
note on waiver of merger applications is that,
in fact, when you force people to merge or
accept the merger of properties to make one
entire parcel, it tends to in a sense change
the character of the neighborhood because now
the house that is there, which is kept small
and only 14 percent lot coverage, there is no
incentive to keep the houses small. Now
you've got a half acre parcel that you could
theoretically develop 20 percent of that. So
you end up, in a sense, with neighborhoods
that are well established with undersized lots
you get these merged properties that all of a
sudden you end up with undersized houses that
get developed on the piece that are somewhat
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
out of character of the area and that is my
observation of keeping the lots just as they
have been developed as undersized because you
and you keep the character of the area. When
you develop this vacant lot, you'll be
developing it with a house that again is
within the setbacks of that property or
presumably. Certainly, there's less
justification for variances when you have a
piece like this that you can comply with the
Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you want to say
something?
MRS. MOORE: Did you want to say --
UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah, I want to say --
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED: Why is the 1957 variance -
- is that still valid today? I mean we have a
lot that is merged and we've created a
conforming lot. Would that ZBA decision still
stand and I'm just putting that out there.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. I believe -- well, as
you know Zoning variances run with the land.
The house, this particular house, if you
wanted to make improvements to it, the Zoning
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Board decision in a sense grants you the
variances for the setbacks that you've
created. So, in a sense, the Zoning Board
decision converts what are nonconforming
setbacks to conforming setbacks based on the
Zoning Board decision. So --
UNIDENTIFIED: What were the variances
granted in the 1957 decision?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, gosh. I have to go back
and look.
UNIDENTIFIED: Was one lot size?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MRS. MOORE: I don't believe it was one,
no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it was setbacks
cause it was a corner lot.
MRS. MOORE: It was a corner lot so
setbacks, but in the determination of granting
that variance there was a recognition that it
-- that the size and character of the area
enabled the Zoning Board to grant a variance
for a house with those setbacks because again
it was not out of character. So part of the
deliberations and the basis of the decisions
supports that the character of the area had
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
already been established for this particular
lot.
UNIDENTIFIED: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just to further
expand that, okay. It has nothing to do with
this application, but if a person gets the
variance to build a house, this is my take on
it; however, gets no further building permit
application there is a possibility that -- and
they build structures on the property, like
accessory structures or whatever, you know,
those are just like any other structure they
build without a permit and that's just a --
MRS. MOORE: That's not applicable here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's not, I know,
I said that. I said that in general.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Anybody else like to
Absolutely not.
speak?
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, subject to my
submission of the vacant lot versus improved
lots.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. That is
correct.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING #6288 - S. and D. Villareal
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances based on an
application for a building permit and the
Building Inspector's June 10, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval under Section 280-15 for the
reason that an accessory garage on this
ll,256-square-foot lot because the code
requires accessory buildings located in a
required rear yard, subject to (1) the new
construction is less than 15 feet from a
property line and is proposed at a height of
20 feet, and (2) the new construction is not
located in the code-required rear yard.
Location of Property: 722 Brown Street,
Greenport; CTM 48-3-25.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
MR. BARRETT: Good morning. My name is
Robert Barrett and a P.E. in the state of New
York and I'm here to answer any questions on
behalf of the owners who can't be present
since they're both working.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Questions, do you have
questions?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
is conforming to the best of our
We're placing this building on a
The height
ability.
front yard --
in a front yard area, so basically the only
issue that we have here from the Building
Inspector is that of side yards?
MR. BARRETT: Yes, sir.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do we have an issue
of size?
MR. BARRETT: Yes. The lot is two very
small lots that were merged to make a quarter-
acre lot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BARRETT: And unfortunately, the two
lots that were merged are back to back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BARRETT: One faces onto Leonard
Street and the other one onto Brown Street.
The Villareals have built -- well, they
haven't built, but they've purchased a very
nice home as their family home on Brown
Street.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BARRETT: But, because of the lot
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
configuration, it's only 50 feet wide.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. BARRETT: And the zoning laws say for
a quarter-acre lot you're supposed to have 15-
foot side setback on either side. The
existing house has a 15-foot side setback on
one side and a 10-foot 6-inch setback on the
other side. In approaching the challenge of
placing a two-car garage on the north lot, the
situation basically was, of course, I was
limited by coverage and I was also restricted
by the side setback, and in order to make the
garage actually reasonable for a family, as I
said, they both work. They each have a car
and there's a third car, actually, which
usually is in the driveway of the house. I
advised that we should go with a 24-foot wide
garage and that leaves an ll-foot setback on
one side and a 15-foot setback on the other
side. Then, the other issue you mentioned is
because of the merger we don't have a rear
yard to put the garage in. So we have to put
it in the front yard if you look at the lot
from the Leonard Street side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just wanted
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
to ask you one other question and that is it's
set back from the Leonard side at what point?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 35 feet.
MR. BARRETT: It's 11 foot on the
westerly side --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, not the side
yard, but the front yard.
MR. BARRETT: Oh, the front yard is 35-
foot setback, which is in --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it's
conforming on the front yard.
MR. BARRETT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's go on
to Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I have a couple
of questions. I have no issue with, because
it's a 50-foot wide lot, I don't have any
problem with the side yard variances. Nor do
I have a problem with it being in the
technical front yard because you have no other
option; however, there's a couple of things
that I'm concerned about.
First of all, I don't know why the
Building Inspector did not notice the size as
nonconforming. The maximum size for an
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
accessory structure on this size lot is 660
square feet.
MR. BARRETT: Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that -- what you are
proposing is considerably larger than that.
It's 900-and -- where is it?
MR. BARRETT: It's 960 I believe.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's 960 square feet.
Now, in addition to that, I have no problem
with a 24-foot width to accommodate a truck
and another car, but the footprint that you're
proposing, the house itself is 24 feet wide by
32 feet long, and you are proposing a garage
that's 24-feet wide and 40 feet long.
MR. BARRETT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a bigger footprint
than the house.
MR. BARRETT: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So size is an issue and
I believe that there is an error here that
needs to be looked at as a variance. The
other thing that concerns me is that you're
proposing -- it's perfectly fine for the half
bath to be in there -- but you're proposing a
second floor very large storage area with full
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
clearance for headroom and you're proposing a
workshop area in there. Is this to be used
for conunercial purposes because that's what it
looks like?
MR. BARRETT: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is he going to be taking
in or is she going to be taking in -- do auto
repairs, or --
MR. BARRETT: No, she -- she's actually a
cashier in the supermarket in Greenport. Her
husband, I first met her husband when he was
proposing to act as the contractor to make
some repairs to a home and that's how we got
to know one another and that's how I got to be
asked to draw up this garage.
The reason why the garage is 40 feet --
yeah, 40 feet long is that his truck, which he
doesn't use everyday, because with gasoline
and everything, the price it is here, he has
this third vehicle that he goes to work in,
but on occasion he uses this much larger
truck, which is actually 26 feet long. It's a
big truck and he, right now, he has it parked
in the Leonard Street side of the lot and he
would like to put it under cover, if possible.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Now, because it's so long it sort of creates a
small workshop area on the other side where we
have room for a 20-foot automobile.
You got to remember, you know, it's not
just the length of the automobile, you need a
couple of feet to get around it, so -- but it
does leave a small area for a workshop. Now,
what he has said is, and this is what he asked
me to do, there is limited headroom above the
garage, if we go with a 20-foot high building
and he wants to be able to store some lumber
or maybe drywall or something like that, where
it can't be taken directly to the jobsite
where they're doing the repair. So he may
have this material on-hand perhaps for a
month, you know, before they're ready and he
needs like a buffer store.
So it's not really commercial, but he
does want the ability to buffer-store
materials from when he receives them to when
he can actually take them to the jobsite.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're saying the
storage is for construction materials?
MR. BARRETT: Yes. Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause over on this plan
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
that you've stamped the second floor has
loading doors?
MR. BARRETT: Yes, the second floor has
two doors that open inwards to allow someone
on the ground to lift timbers and push them up
and somebody else takes them in. The storage
area basically is only the area roughly the
same size as the doors because of the roof
truss and everything.
limited access in the
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It gives you very
side bays.
Well, it also says,
small parts storage up there. What small
parts are being stored?
MR. BARRETT: Well, small parts -- these
fellows who do repair work, they do have
pieces of machinery, you know, not just nail
guns, but somewhat larger pieces like
compressors and things like that and he
couldn't really explain exactly, but I gather
it's small pieces of construction equipment
that he needs to take to the job site to do
his repairs. If you've ever been --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So there's no proposed -
- there's no proposed commercial use on the
premises?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
use?
MR. BARRETT: No,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BARRETT: No,
home and they've got,
children and so forth.
ma'am.
It's for the owner's own
this is their family
you know, several
the
size from the 660 to the 960 that
proposing.
MR. BARRETT: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that is going to
require a variance and it is not noticed in
the disapproval and I don't understand why.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the point is,
what do we do at this point? Do we ask Mr.
Barrett to go over to the Building Department
now and ask them to rewrite -- to write
another disapproval?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I think that's --
yeah, I would like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we ask him to
bring that back and then modify --
BOARD ASST.: He has to file a new
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
Yeah, well the big concern that I have is
fact that we have a substantial overage of
you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
application
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He has to file a
new application for that particular variance.
MR. BARRETT: You want -- simply said,
you want me to take the drawing that you've
seen --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BARRETT: --
Along with the survey.
to the Building
Department and get this disapproved on the
basis of the size?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, here's your Notice
of Disapproval and, yeah, take the current
Notice of Disapproval that does not make any
reference to the size, it makes reference to
the location in a front yard and it makes
reference to the ll-foot and 15-foot side yard
setbacks, which require variances. There's
three variances. You need a fourth variance
for the size you're proposing so we can act
upon that.
MR. BARRETT: Which is just inside the
20-percent limit.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I'm not talking
about lot coverage, yeah, because that's okay.
It's not over 20-percent. I'm talking about
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
the 960-square-feet you're proposing.
MR. BARRETT: The footprint of the
building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, the footprint. Ah,
here's my --
law.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Based upon the new
BOARD ASST.: It's possible that maybe
the Building Department didn't see the new
plan that we have; they didn't know that it
was over 660 square feet?
MR. BARRETT: No, they -- no at the time
it was disapproved, Mr. Villareal was even
more ambitious. He wanted to include a shower
stall so he could wash up before and the
Building Department told him absolutely no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's not a
dwelling, he can't move in there.
Alright, so are we clear? We might as
well mention this to you, since you're here
now. Note that the Building Inspector Michael
Verity is present in the audience. This
gentleman's Notice of Disapproval for an
accessory garage structure with half-bath,
indicates three variances on a nonconforming
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
ll-foot and 15-foot side yard when 15 is
required and a variance for being in the front
yard. It's two lots back to back that merged.
They both are on front yards, so we have no
problem with the conforming front yard setback
of 35 feet, but those are the three variances.
What's missing is that it should be a maximum
660 square feet and he's proposing 960 and
that was not noticed.
So he's going to need an amended Notice
of Disapproval so that we can act upon what
he's proposing.
BOARD ASST.: We also need an amended
application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And an amended
application.
BOARD ASST.: That needs to be
advertised.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: May I speak?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Michael
Verity, Chief Building Inspector, Town of
Southold.
In reference to that it
reference the 15 or 11 feet.
should not even
You're talking
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
about an accessory in a place where it can't
be, that should be the only variance, at this
point in time. If you decide to grant that,
then you have to look at -- and it's done
historically this way, if you look at the
other approvals or disapprovals -- then you
have to look at the size, then you have to
look at the setbacks, then you have to look at
the height. We don't even know if you need to
go to step 2 when we can't even get past step
1, which would be an accessory in a front
yard. It can't be there, it's not permitted
by Code. So we don't need to discuss color;
we don't need to discuss front yard setback,
side yard setback, size, height, depth,
anything. So that's why.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see. Well, it's
interesting because then I don't understand
why the Notice of Disapproval pointed out that
it's a 20-foot high structure, which therefore
requires a 15-foot side yard setback, if all
the --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Again, it
should not have. You have to go to step 1,
before you go to step 2, and we're too far
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
down with that and I apologize for that. That
should not have been drafted that way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, how about we get a
new draft then so that we can act upon exactly
what it is that we need to approve?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, I think
you can act on it, it's an accessory in a
front yard, but then you have to take into
consideration all the other sections of the
Code, that's the problem. Historically, it's
been done that way and it's -- go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you indicate
on -- could you ask your staff to indicate on
it that this is only step 1 so that we would
be aware of the fact that there are other
steps involved?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, as long as we know
(inaudible) because there's --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah. Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- a number of variances
required for this as proposed.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
agree.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to miss one and have
I agree. I
So I just didn't want
this gentleman back
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
before us --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, there's
two ways you can handle it. Either it's
permitted or not in the front yard --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: If it is, then
this is what you have to do, then we can
readdress that if that's the case. If that's
BOARD ASST.: We don't have a new
procedure for that. This is the first time --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: No, that's the
way it's always been done.
BOARD ASST.: I mean, with the Zoning
Board of Appeals we've never had a procedure
to address going back you midstream before the
Board acts on a decision.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: No, but
there's been other decisions based on that,
almost identical to it.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, that's what I'm
saying. So the Board acts first, but then he
has to submit a new application before the
Board --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: He would have
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
to do that, that's correct. You're allowed to
have this accessory building, but now you have
to have this accessory building that's too
tall, it's too large, whatever else, it's got
a bathroom that's not permitted. So that's
what we'll have to address, at that point in
time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Board could
uniquely say that we wanted the building
pushed back farther, so it's partially in the
rear yard and it's partially in the front
yard.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Front and
side, he really doesn't have a rear yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Front and side, I'm
sorry, I meant front and side, I apologize.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct, then at that point in time you could
see what could happen and then we would then
have to say well you're in the side yard and
we would have to address the next step or set
of questions in a different manner.
So it's really a touch situation.
There's really no perfect way to handle this,
but again, historically, we address the use
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
first where it's not permitted. Then, if it's
okay, yes, we're going to allow that, but then
this is what you have to do. You have to be
at 660, you have to be at 18 feet, you have to
be the color blue or whatever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is not a
criticism, Mike.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yes?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In effect this is
almost a one-year process that this person,
that this applicant would have to go through.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, it's
pretty intense.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's pretty
intense.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Intense,
definitely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Frankly, I would prefer
I think to expedite this since these are all -
- even though they -- well, you're saying they
only should have been in the front yard, but
nevertheless --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- we have one that
gives us side yard variances as well.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: You can
address it that way, but I think we're too far
down the road. If you want we can redo that,
you can re-advertise and go about it that way.
I don't know which way is better.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I honestly don't have an
issue with it being in the front yard and I
don't think anybody else does either.
Precisely where in the front yard is another
story. Right now, we've got it at a
conforming setback to a front yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For a primary
structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For a primary structure.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: For a primary
structure, that's correct, but it's basically
that it can't even be there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand. What I'm
saying is I don't believe, given that there's
two front yards and it's a very long lot, I
don't really object to them having the
accessory structure where it's proposed. My -
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, but we haven't
heard the rest of the public --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, I'm -- yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm saying at this
point, you know, but certainly the size is a
very big issue and we really can't act on the
legality of that size with a nonconforming as-
proposed until it's noticed.
CHIEF BUILDING
MEMBER WEISMAN:
middle here.
CHIEF BUILDING
correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're not
through and we're not really at
INSPECTOR: Yes.
So we're kind of in the
INSPECTOR: That's
all the way
the beginning
either. So I just want to understand
procedurally what the most expeditious way we
can proceed without undue burden to the
applicant so that we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is no
expeditious way at this point, and that's the
problem. Okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, well let's
figure out what has to be done.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Alright,
so --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: The owner of
the property is also here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I don't know
if Mr. Barrett is aware of that. So -- yeah,
he's been here since the beginning of the
hearing. So --
MR. BARRETT: Sorry, I (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we'll -- we will
talk to Mr. Barrett regarding what exists in
reference to this structure as it's presently
located and then discuss whatever the issue is
concerning -- whatever the issues are
regarding the public on this particular piece.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: And Leslie,
you're correct, there's two ways to handle it.
It's the front yard only and then you have to
-- everything, soup to nuts on the remainder
of it. The height, like I said, the size and
whatever else, setback requirements as well,
should be addressed. There's only two ways,
that is kind of in the middle and it should
not have been drafted that way.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now it's advertised that
way and --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: So that's why
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we act only on part,
only on part of this notice?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, there is only
one other issue and that is the issue that Mr.
Barrett has presented before us and that is
the issue of storing construction equipment
and supplies in a residential structure.
There is nothing commercial down there, so I
mean --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Except for (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well that may
be nonconforming.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it is.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That is
nonconforming.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Is there an
issue in the Building Department regarding
that, Michael?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: You can have a
home occupation. To that extent, it might
push it over the edge and it might --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
the
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
thing as well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So when you go to
laundry list, you may discuss that?
That's another
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: And again,
speaking as the Building Inspector, I'm also a
property owner across the street and if need
be I'll speak after that. I'd rather not
speak about the property, but I will speak as
a Building Inspector. We did have a violation
on the property for the use of the basement
for illegal housing. So that would be my only
concern in the design. As it is with any
other design that we see that comes through
the Building Department, we would be concerned
because of the bathroom and the full bathroom
and the size of the area. Leslie had
mentioned storage --
MR. BARRETT: Mike --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Let me just
finish. Let me just finish. She had
mentioned storage and possibly running a
business out of there. My concern would be
more so of being habitable space, living
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space.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
design, that's another step we
Building Department and, again,
Well, that and --
By intent or
can take in the
didn't want to
go there until we actually found out if it's
going to be a permitted use in a front yard
and that's something we can address through
the design policy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why I have
tried in my particular interpretation to
reduce the second floor area to a ceiling
height of 6 feet 9 inches. So it doesn't
reach that 7-foot limitation, which is
moderately conforming, okay, and that's all
I'll say.
Mr. Barrett?
MR. BARRETT: Well, I've heard everything
said. I only wanted to make one comment
I don't want to make it appear that I'm
you
and
being argumentative, but just a few moments
ago when the other speaker spoke, he mentioned
a whole bathroom. What's before you today is
just a toilet and washbasin.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. BARRETT: So I'm not sure what you'd
call that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a half bath.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct, that's a half bath.
MR. BARRETT: It's not a half bath --
yes, it's a half bath. Yeah, good.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: The original
design that came in to us was a full bath.
MR. BARRETT: Oh, yes. Absolutely.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: So that's what
I was stating. By design the intent was there
to be habitable space.
MR. BARRETT: This is the drawing you're
referring to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Your applicant
wanted to mention something.
MR. BARRETT: Please.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
name for the record, sir.
MR. VILLAREAL: Hi,
Just state your
How are you?
my name is Salvatore
Villareal. I own the property and the reason
(inaudible) was with the second floor the
first time I met Mr. Robert I tried to make
the second floor with the full bathroom and he
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
set up, that's why he mentioned now. After
that he only set out the first floor with a
half bathroom downstairs. You know, and low
ceiling. I don't know if he see the other
blueprints or I don't know what's going on,
you know, but he only show half bathroom,
without a shower or anything.
Before that we mentioned like that, we
think about it make like a garage with the
second floor livable,
legal. I said, okay,
the storage on top.
but he says it's not
well I do the garage for
You know? Then what he
mentioned before about the tools because I got
a lot of machines and lawn mower and stuff to
take care of the property, I try and keep it
inside and dry because I got ticket before for
the small shed I got in the back. I guess it
was not legal, but I said when I bought the
house it was like that. You know, for keep my
stuff dry, you know, and that's the whole idea
of building the garage keep the stuff off the
property. You know, keep it clean, you know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Very good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sir, what -- there's a
little area here called workshop area. What
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
work do you intend to do in there?
MR. VILLAREAL: That for my tools. For
the tools I use, the lawn mower to keep inside
the shop and small stuff I have. I have a gun
(inaudible)
over there,
it to you.
air compressor. I put it off to the side I
take it off my truck. You know, because I
have a trailer in the back of my job. If I
that trailer and keep that stuff
that's why -- that's why I mention
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's lawn equipment
plus stuff for your private residential use
but also construction equipment?
MR. VILLAREAL: Well, yeah. Like a gun,
saw, you know, keep it dry and all because I
have a trailer. Maybe he know I have a white
trailer and I want to get rid of that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You want to get rid of
the trailer and put the equipment in the
garage?
MR. VILLAREAL: Yeah, put the equipment
inside the garage and keep it dry like
everybody doing now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you plan to do any
carpentry work in that workshop area?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. VILLAREAL: No, not for the moment,
no. I'm going to try to keep the space
(inaudible) there and that's what I figured
out, that's what I think about.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. VILLAREAL: Before I do it, I try to
figure out to make a living space over there,
but he told me you can't. I have to back off
the blueprint. I believe you have it, he
showed it here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. VILLAREAL: Alright, thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Alright, let me just go back to Mr. Barrett
one second.
MR. BARRETT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Barrett, as you
know, you've been before this Board a couple
of times. If we are going to act on this
application I need to ask you the question,
are you willing to consider alternate relief?
If the Board is not so inclined to grant this
building or a building, I'll refer to it as,
in its present location as proposed, in other
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
words --
MR. BARRETT: Of course.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are?
MR. BARRETT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so then the
Board would really be able to push the
building back farther from the street, closer
to the technical, we'll refer to it as, the
technical rear yard of the applicant's
property.
MR. BARRETT: Do you have any feeling as
to how much?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. No because
it's done on a democratic basis based upon the
three votes, okay, and this is a new one for
us. I have to tell you --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, I'm not
comfortable with acting partially on this with
a height variance, you know, with the height
and, I mean, it's all dominoes all over the
place here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but in effect what you're doing is the use
first and -- excuse me, the building first, as
it is nonconforming in that location. Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: In the front yard.
That's fine. I would like to have a Notice
that asks us only to rule on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you got side
yard setbacks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now we have side yards,
too. so I don't see how you separate -- this
is a problem. I don't see how you can just
separate them because they are not conforming
side yards. So how do you then write a Notice
of Disapproval based on this site plan?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or
side yard.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
you deny the
Or what you
could do is -- and again probably through the
advice of the attorney would be the best
thing, is you could have an accessory in a
front yard, but it has to be 660 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
the side yard requirements.
foot
case
It has to meet
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's going to be two 15-
side yards, which they can't do.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, in that
it's -- no, it would be actually a 10 and
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
a 15. So his building would have to be --
it's a 13,000-square-foot lot if I'm --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but that's
only --
MEMBER WEISMAN: 11,000 -- no, it's
11,253.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: 11,000, okay,
so if you were building a principle building
on there you would have to have a 10 and a 15
for if you were building a principle building,
but if you two 15s that's correct, you go to
the next -- but it still would allow him a 20-
foot wide building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's what
I'm saying. So he can -- I don't oppose --
it's hard for me to keep me as a neighbor and
the Building Department separate, but I'll do
the best that I can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but just
remember, you have a legal right to speak here
because you own a piece of property --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, but I
want to change my hat if I have to --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well,
I mean --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
change it.
I'll change it
and then I'll walk back in again. So -- as
long as you can separate it, I don't oppose
anyone the use of their property. So a 660-
square-foot accessory garage in a front area,
I do not oppose. Obviously, you have to grant
that relief, but I feel based on the
application and the attorney, and anyone else
can correct me if I'm wrong, I feel that you
can grant that at 660 square feet at the
proper height at this point in time based on
the application that you have. I would just
hate to see it go back for another two to
three months or a month or whatever unless
this is truly what he wants, then he would
definitely have to re-advertise.
If you're leaning towards an accessory in
the front, which that's what I'm gathering,
then you have to then go for the possibility
of three other variances.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, if we were to
grant -- we could simply deny all the other
whatever the (inaudible) the side yards --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
example a
whatever,
know --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's correct
and then, by default, he would be back to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Grant a front yard and
then everything else would have to be
conforming to Code and then --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- sir, if you propose
something that is not conforming to Code, for
side yard or height variance or
then you're going to need to, you
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Then he would
have to reapply, re-advertise, everything.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Make a new application
and new --
MR. BARRETT: Would it be possible, I
know you have a lot of other cases --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. BARRETT: Would it be possible for me
to leave for a while and talk to the owner and
see, you know, this is -- you know, I want to
thank you. It's been very instructive for me.
I've learned a lot listening to the interplay
between you. Would it be possible for me to
come back and give you some indication because
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
between now and when you have your discussion
it will be, what, three weeks from now?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. BARRETT: Maybe we can come up with
something that is much more in line with what
you're indicating. I do know that Mr.
Villareal wants to get moving on this. If we
have to go into, you know, a complete review
he understands we're probably looking at next
year before --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you could submit -
you could submit an amended plan and --
MR. BARRETT: Yeah, that's what I'm
thinking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I would --
yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: More conforming to Code.
MR. BARRETT: And it's his decision, if
he doesn't want to do that now, then your
decision is whatever it should be.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Again, like
you said, though, the decision, I feel, I may
be 100 percent wrong on that, could be made on
the accessory in the front yard, but that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
stating then, okay, everything else has to
comply.
MR. BARRETT: Hmm.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: If they're not
happy with that decision, they could accept
that decision and then they could reapply for
something taller, longer, wider.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That would be
my personal recormmendation, if I can make
that. I mean, it would make sense to me.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
660 --
Yeah, they could do
So you're saying
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Proper height.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail to Code.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And in conforming
location, which it is in a conforming location
at this time.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
that it's in a front yard --
Well, except
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, I'm saying
that, but, I mean, that's why it's being
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
denied.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct. That would be -- that was
technically the only variance that it should
have been reviewing, at that point in time,
because you can't get to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Side yard.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: -- step 2, 3,
and 4 if you can't get past the initially --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But if we get to
this situation again, you can give us the step
situation so we can understand that.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well,
hopefully, we don't have something like this
again. This is kind of like virgin ground.
We've had something similar to it --
BOARD ASST.: They always come back
though.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, well
they always do. We always have discussion on
it, a little better discussion on it and I
think in the future that would be advisable to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
see if we can kind of word it a little bit
better prior to, for everybody.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, in future it would
be -- if that's the way you want us to
proceed, it would be best to indicate --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yes. Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- variance number one
subject to ZBA approval, the following
variances, as applied, for will need to be the
subject of another --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Notice of
Disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: A new notice, yes.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Which would
make sense and, like you said, there are other
cases which I can bring to the table in a
discussion for another day so we can go over
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Barrett
at this
MR.
okay.
Okay, so Mr.
you understand what we're discussing
particular point?
BARRETT: Yes, absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The point, the
point on the table is that of a 660 on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
square footage, okay, in the conforming
location, meaning setback location, only
setback. Okay, with a front yard variance for
allowing the structure to be in the front
yard, okay, because of the unique nature of
your client's application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the height --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the height
would be conforming. The question I have is,
do you need more than an hour or two to deal
with your client so that you can come back
today to discuss that with him or do you need
multiple weeks to do that?
MR. BARRETT: Well, I would like the
opportunity to talk to my client. I didn't
know he was going to be here this morning --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BARRETT: -- and so I'll certainly be
back to you within an -- let's see what is the
time? 11:00. What time do you close for
lunch?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, 12.
MR. BARRETT: 12, okay, that gives me
enough time to at least talk to him.
BOARD ASST.: Mr. Barrett, I just wanted
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
to mention to you and I've done this on other
applications when the Board is talking about
alternative relief, a denial with something
different, and if you wanted to amend your
diagram to show a lot more conformity, you
know, height per Code, size per Code, a
different diagram and an alternative plan, the
Board, you know, might consider adjourning it
until you can submit that. Adjourn it to a
future date, but that would just be an option
that the Board -- a procedure that the Board
has used in the past.
MR. BARRETT: Well, I'm a fairly rapid
worker. If I had to, I'd turn it around in 24
hours, but I know that's not necessary.
BOARD ASST.:
able to today --
MR. BARRETT:
BOARD ASST.:
Yeah, the Board wouldn't be
No, of course.
-- cause we would need time
for the public to review the new plan, when
you submit it, and it would be adjourned for a
future date. We don't know what that date is
yet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so let's do
that. Let's adjourn it to a future date and
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
we'll -- this will give you time to talk to
your client and come up with a new plan if you
so choose.
MR. BARRETT: Okay, we'll adjourn it.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: And if any
amendments are needed, if that's how you want
to handle it, if it's going to go beyond the
accessory in a front yard, then we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: -- just make
the proper adjustments and do a re-
advertisement, if necessary.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want
a date, what do you think?
BOARD ASST.:
to do that?
MR. BARRETT:
Mr. Barrett,
to give me
did you want
Yes, I'm concerned about
the lateness of adjournment to another date.
BOARD ASST.: There's nothing before the
Board to look at today. It's due 21 days
before the hearing, so the future date looks
like --
MR. BARRETT:
21 days.
BOARD ASST.: Well, how much time do you
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It could be within the next
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
need to submit everything in eight sets and to
get an amended Notice of Disapproval and then
to submit everything to us?
MR. BARRETT: Well,
the Building Department,
week --
BOARD ASST.:
time.
MR. BARRETT:
that will depend on
they take at least a
No, I'm talking about your
Yeah, well for me I could
probably get everything done in a week and
plus a week for --
BOARD ASST.: I
are filled up, maxed,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
September.
BOARD ASST.:
September group.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
off the record?
know that July and August
total max.
So you're talking
So we're talking at the
Can I speak
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: You might want
to consider this today, Mr. Barrett, but
that's totally up to you. I think that one to
two hours to talk to your client and make this
as conforming as possible, otherwise, you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
talking September and then you might as well
just --
BOARD ASST.: Well, the Board still needs
the amended plan, unless you wanted to waive
that procedure and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we'd make it
subject to that.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: But that's still coming
back to the Board with a new application, if
it's subject to.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, if you
allow the accessory in a front yard with
everything else conforming --
BOARD ASST.: Without seeing a plan, you
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
have to see a plan, you're just
You wouldn't
approving an
accessory in the front yard, right?
BOARD ASST.: No, but the Board's
procedure has been they like to have a plan to
stamp and we don't have a plan to stamp for
the Building Department.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
weeks anyhow.
involved with
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, a
decision wouldn't be made for a couple of
Again, I don't want to get
your policy, I'm just trying to
BOARD ASST.: It's a legal procedure to -
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yes, I
understand that.
BOARD ASST.: -- stamp those for the
official file.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but I mean we
wouldn't make a decision until we had the plan
anyway. So --
BOARD ASST.: So you have to adjourn the
hearing to receive it or do you want to close
the
to Mr.
for a
okay.
hearing subject to receiving it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's entirely up
Barrett. So let him talk to his client
half hour or so and then get back to us,
MR. BARRETT: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And so --
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's hear from the
people that want to speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we're coming
right now for you. Just give us a minute
we're trying to work this out. Okay? We'll
be right with you, Mr. Dinizio.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mike did you want to say
anything as a property owner?
MR. MICHAEL VERITY: Yeah, as a property
owner, again I don't want to take away from
anybody's property rights, if it's legal. The
only thing that can't be legal, obviously,
because of the two front yards, I don't have a
problem with that. I have an accessory
garage, I do tinkering and stuff like that. I
do not have anybody in there. I do not have a
problem with that. So I don't want to take
that away from him and, again, the other
variances that may be needed, I think they can
be avoided and that's pretty much all I need
to say, at this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. MICHAEL VERITY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Dinizio, just
state your name for the record, please.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. DINIZIO: My name is Paul Dinizio. I
live at 637 Brown Street across from the
applicant.
I'm glad you brought that to the
attention cause the structure bigger than the
house. Okay and if it looks like a house, it
probably is a house. Okay and I'd like to
correct Mr. Barrett and Mr. Villareal --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please just direct
MR. DINIZIO: No, but I mean I just want
to correct the statement that he said with
their three children, they must have a lot of
aunts, uncles, brothers, and sisters, too,
living there in the house cause there's a lot
of traffic coming and going from the house and
I really would not like to see any more.
As far as him building a garage to keep
his vehicles in, I have no problem with that.
I have a problem with the height and the
length. As a workshop, fine. As running a
commercial business out of, he can buy a piece
of commercial property just like I have and
paid taxes on it for 30 years. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
Sir, could you come up, use the mike and
state your name. How do you do?
MR. DAVIS: My name is Paul Davis. I
live at 235 Leonard Street, which is directly
across from Mr. Reale's (sic) back yard. I
have a couple of things I'd like to share with
you, if that's possible.
This is the view from my (inaudible)
window to Mr. Reale's (sic) back yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need that to --
Oh, he brought us pictures.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, he's got a couple.
I'll just look at them and pass them on.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright.
BOARD ASST.:
or the same one?
MR. DAVIS:
Are they different photos
Different.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. DAVIS: You can have them. And
regard to the variances for the aforementioned
property, as you guys know, Mr. Reale (sic)
has been fined several times for code
violations as far as inhabitants in his
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
basement and structures in his back yard. As
you can see from the photos that Mr. Reale
(sic) has a blatant disregard for the
conditions of his yard and how it affects the
neighbors. There's an unlicensed vehicle
parked in the back as well as his private
vehicles that are in the
The lawn is -- well,
inside is well manicured.
front.
the lawn on the
The lawn on the
outside of the fence gets to be three feet
long, has assorted debris in it. You know, it
catches debris as it flows down. There's
construction stuff that's thrown out there for
weeks at a time and not taken care of.
I can only see that approval of that
garage or that industrial building would
result in, you know, storage space that he
would use for salvaged equipment stuff that he
hopes to use, stuff that will sit there for
years. The vehicles may never make it inside
with all his gear and everything. We do have
a lovely neighborhood there and it's on the
upswing. Things are happening there, people
are improving their properties and I'd like to
reap the rewards of that, the pride of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
ownership there.
The building that Mr. Reale (sic) is
beyond commercial. You know, it's industrial
at best. I don't want to look out there and
see that stuff there. I also have a letter
from another neighbor who couldn't be here
today, that's Ms. Laurie Latney and it's
notarized.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need it, sir.
Thank you.
MR. DAVIS: You're welcome.
I guess in closing, I would say that, you
know, having a good neighbor is a great thing.
Sal has not always been a great neighbor
although I do heartily endorse the working man
and if he wants to build a garage that
conforms to all our rules, then there's no
problem with it. Just review that setback a
little bit more because it's his back yard,
but it's my front yard, and on that note how
tall is the fence in your front yard?
MR. VILLAREAL: Four feet.
MR. DAVIS: Four feet?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, he's got a very
large --
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's tall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
I need you to state your name for the
record, sir.
MR. PURCELL: My name is Bernard Purcell.
I live at 813 Leonard Street. I've talked to
Mr. Deville {sic) about the building in
question. I personally don't have any problem
with what we people do on their property is
their own business. I'm here today because I
never been here before and it's a learning
experience. After hearing what's going on, I
really don't have a problem. If he downsized
the building and made it more of a garage
instead of a monster building, I really don't
have any problem with him building it, but
points have been made that maybe he should
just downsize it and start from scratch.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Anybody else?
Thank you.
Okay, seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
to adjourn this hearing for approximately half
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
hour. For anybody who would like to stay, I
think a half hour in time is not burdening
situation. I realize that you -- we are all
working people and -- but we'll reconvene
about quarter of 12 and we're finishing the
first hearing at that and thereafter -- the
first hearing after this. So I make that
motion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
HEARING #6283 - Angelica Bergolea
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Requests for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on an application
for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's February 17, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval for additions and alterations to
the existing single-family dwelling proposed
at: (1) less than the code-required minimum
of 75 feet from the bulkhead adjacent to
Orient Harbor; (2) less than 10 feet on a
single side yard, and (3) less than a total of
25 feet for combined side yard setbacks, at
680 South Lane, East Marion; CTM 38-6-7."
BOARD ASST.: I need to ask Mark for
affidavits and the green cards.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you, Mark. Mark,
there's one green card. There are two
missing. Do you know if the two neighbors
received it?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't know if they
received it. I sent -- I know I sent them
out.
BOARD ASST.: And you sent them on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
16tn of June. They weren't returned by the
Post Office as undeliverable?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, no.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the record?
Could you state
Excuse me.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
Hello, again.
What would you like to tell us?
MR. SCHWARTZ: This project we're looking
to add a~second floor over the main structure
of the first of the house. It's currently a
two-story house with a kind of a (inaudible)
styled roof. We're going to remove the roof,
add a second story, hopefully, and there is an
existing sunroom on the waterside,
approximately 10 by 31. That area we'd like
to turn into a second floor deck off the
bedroom upstairs. There is no expansion of
the existing footprint. We are also asking
for a set of stairs off of that second floor
deck down to grade and a small addition on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
street side that is conforming to Code. So
that's the extent of the project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Will the actual
aesthetics of the construction change? Will
it still be cape style or will it be more like
a colonial?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, it would be a full
two-story.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A full two-story,
so it will be more like a colonial.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Did I submit the
elevations? I thought I submitted the
elevations.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you did,
yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You inspected the
foundation on the house itself and you feel
that the construction can bear the load of
this?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So there is
no anticipation of any reconstruction of the
foundation at all at this point? You're not
touching the first story at all; is that
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correct?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, they are.
MR. SCHWARTZ: The first floor of the
main house is fine. We do have to look at the
sunroom foundation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: But we're not knocking
this house down, for sure. The first floor
will remain; we're going to work from there
up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So the only
-- the only manipulation, if that's the proper
word, would be in the sunroom area. The rest
of it would pretty much remain, I mean, it may
be de-shingled and so on and so forth, but
that's probably the extent of that
construction and new windows or whatever?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. We're going to do
new windows and new siding also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, so you're
going to de-shingle it, you're going to
replace the windows on the first story, but
the overall first story will remain intact?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, not for
whatever updating goes on in the inside, but
the four walls on the exterior apart from
whatever that is affected by the sunroom and
what you have to do there to beef that up to
put a deck on. It'll be a flat-roof deck, I
suspect?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
new exterior staircase that leads to the
second, to the proposed second story deck,
that's going to leave a 5 foot 4 inch side
yard.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other side yard is
currently 14 foot 6, but you're putting in a
proposed Bilco door.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's going to leave a
very diminished side yard in terms, you know,
I'm thinking of complete access for emergency
equipment in the side yard to get down to the
water and the back of the house on the water
side. What can be done about that, if
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Mark, the proposed
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
anything?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I suppose we might
be able to move the Bilco to the front of the
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Where we have that 8 foot
1 inch.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. SCHWARTZ: 8.1 foot --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That "L". That's what I
was thinking --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I was
hoping you would do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I was
thinking cause you've go to at least leave
some sort of side yard access. So if you can
move that then we can possibly justify a 5
foot 4 inch side yard, which is very, very
close, but I don't -- I don't have the front -
- there must be access from the interior of
the second floor of the house to that deck,
yeah? When you're done with that plan?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
-- there will be, yes.
There will be.
There's a bedroom up there
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104
and there'll be access from the bedroom.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, but you really
want to have an exterior access as well, a set
of steps?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, I just want to
bring these up. This is possibly moved to
here. Let's see if I had any other -- and
you're sure that the weight is going to be
alright, additional weight that's sitting
really smack on the upper bulkhead
practically. You have a --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, I was concerned about
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's really,
really close. I just want to have you address
for the record the loads on that first floor
relative to where it is on the -- it's not a
huge slope or anything, but let's hear what
you have to say about the impact on LWRP.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, there certainly will
be an impact of the second floor weight onto
the existing embankment. It's a concrete
foundation; it doesn't have footings so and
there's 2 by 4 stud walls on the first floor
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
of the structure, so the additional weight is
not -- wouldn't be a factor any kind of
concern certainly to the existing embankment
or the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And there's no need for
any kind of heavy construction equipment in
that area?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No. It will not have to
come around to that side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Let me see what
else. What else did I write in here? So
primarily you're dealing with the existing
footprint on the -- yeah. Total side yard --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The only addition to
the footprint is the new proposed entryway?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That setback --
well that's set back 110, over 100 feet, so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so you moved that
Bilco door, yeah. I don't think I have any
other questions. The stairs that are there
are already existing. You've got a small
little planter bed of roses there. There's no
additional impact then to the bluff?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. SCHWARTZ: No. We actually, we have
had our Trustees hearing. We don't have the
permit, at this point, but they had no major
concerns with the application exactly as
shown.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alrighty.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Are you installing --
are you installing drywells to catch --
MR. SCHWARTZ: We are, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
Okay.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak on behalf of
anybody would like
application?
Okay, I guess
go on this thing.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
this application? Is there
to speak against the
we're pretty well ready to
Thank you.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING #6282 - Michael and
Robin Drews
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Requests for Variances based on an
application for a building permit and the
Building Inspector's February 17, 2009 Notice
of Disapproval for construction of deck and
platform accessory structures at less then the
code-required minimum of 75 feet from the
bulkhead adjacent to Little Peconic Bay, at
7425 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue; CTM 118-4-
Do you want to just proceed, Jerry, or
shall I point out a couple of things?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, you can
proceed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's yours.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Understand that what's
before us -- Mark, you want to just enter your
name for the record?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, Mark Schwartz.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, what's before us
is a set of deteriorated stairs that go from
the top of bulkhead of the subject property
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
down to the beach and the existing stairs that
upon site inspection are a completely
unusable. They're really dilapidated. You're
replacing them in approximately the same
location.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: With some changes.
Namely a platform that's 4-foot by 8-foot
which is a landing. There's a kind of upper
bulkhead and then a slope sandy bulkhead and
then on that sandy flat slope you're proposing
a 10-foot by 10-foot flush deck and then down
stairs.
So tell us a little bit about what
happened with the Trustees. There are several
variances on the teardown and building of a
new home on this property and some variances
were granted in 2006. That was with a demo.
We have a 1999 variance also on a deck with
the condition that it was never to be enlarged
or moved closer to the bulkhead, but anyway
that was all demolished anyway.
So now we also have to look at the fact
that the survey that we have there are some
structures on the property that are seaward of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
the existing deck, the new deck that was built
that's attached to the house, namely a sauna
or a hot tub rather and a sort of a pool
feature, a water fountain feature, fish pond
right adjacent to that deck and then we also
have an outdoor kitchen structure that's being
built. So can you address those things for
us, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure. The -- they're
actually, those structures are not seaward of
the existing deck. They're actually set in.
They're beyond 75 feet from the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: And we had submitted
amendment to the Building Department and
gotten approvals for these structures that you
see that are built.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
like to see them on a
Well, I would certainly
survey. The survey that
we have doesn't show them.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I didn't think you needed
to address it because they're beyond 75 feet.
When we submitted it to the Building
Department --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's from the lower
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
bulkhead, right?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I'm just talking
about -- I'm only talking about right now the
two structures that you mentioned, the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: -- hot tub and the sauna.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHWARTZ: And the outdoor kitchen
area, barbecue area.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
beyond the 75 feet,
Yeah.
Those structures are
so as far as I know,
it' s
not in your jurisdiction to review them. So
we submitted that to the Building Department,
they approved it and
MEMBER WEISMAN:
building permit?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
permit?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
the amended plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(inaudible).
Do we have an amended
NO.
You did get a building
I actually have a copy of
That would be helpful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would be
helpful.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
the record. So --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yeah, thank you.
I just want to mark it
Yeah.
for
BOARD ASST.: Do you want to see it first
before I mark it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. I'd like to see
it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) survey that
shows the 75-foot setback (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, this is what we
got for the --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: This is what we have
partially.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have parts of it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Well, we have the
whole thing, but it's in two pages.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. What is
that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: This was also submitted to
the Building Department application
(inaudible) so you see the 75 feet
(inaudible).
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: That's a better
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
drawing for our purposes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For our purposes.
BOARD ASST.: So there's a site plan and
then the first -- just for the record, cause
there's a tape recording,
a plot plan or is it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
the first diagram is
this is a -- these
are architectural drawings of --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Plan views and
sections.
BOARD ASST.: Plan views and sections and
then there's also an amended site plan dated -
- let me just open --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) date.
I don't think I have a date.
BOARD ASST.: There's no date.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It may be part of
another plan.
BOARD ASST.: It's called expanded U at
site plan and this is prepared by you, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
Yes.
I guess and prepared --
It was submitted to the
Building Department also.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
MR. SCHWARTZ: That I just printed today,
so I probably has today's date on it.
BOARD ASST.: It doesn't have a date, but
I'm going to say today's date on here. I'll
add it just with a note.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll give that you
to in a second, (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, let's see we got a
letter -- okay, while we're doing that, Mark,
can you please address the -- I know you did
in your application, but I have to write this
finding so I want to have it in the record.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The inconsistency with
the LWRP.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm not really sure --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the usual just --
regarding the steps and platform though that
you're proposing. It says, "it's policy 6
6.3, distance from the proposed 10 by 10 is
zero feet from the bulkhead and the 4 by 8
platform 18-foot seaward from the bulkhead.
Minimum setback distance at 75 is required."
Well, I just want to -- they are
requiring a minimum 10-foot landscape buffer
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be established landward of the top of the
slope line, planted with indigenous drought
tolerant -- the usual stuff. So can you
comment on any of those issues?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, we did present this
plan to the Trustees, I think well over a year
ago. They approved our request that we had
actually requested for two 10 foot by 10 foot
flush platforms at the bulkhead level because
there was one area there that we're showing on
this plan had more of a sandy area, didn't
have so much grass growing in that area, so
they felt that it was okay for the 10 by 10 on
that side. The stairs and the 4 by 8 platform
is standard approval from the Trustees.
So they have no problem with the size of
the 4 by 8 platform, but when I submitted it
to the Town the Building Department said we
needed a variance because we're within the 75
feet setback of the -- of the bulkhead, for
the 10 by 10 deck on grade and also the 4 by 8
platform, but what you see before you had been
approved by the Trustees and there's no
jurisdiction with the DEC.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
over the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. SCHWARTZZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
For the landing
Yeah.
Okay. Anybody else
MR. SCHWARTZ: And if you walked the
beach, the area has many much larger
structures at the bulkhead, much larger flush
decks and sheds and things like that in that
area. So it's not unusual to see a deck down
at the bulkhead area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what I can
remember granting over the years were two
small boathouses in this area probably 20
years ago, 15 to 20 years ago, but I have to
tell you we have not done anything recently,
and I'm not speaking for the Board, I'm just
saying from my own personal thoughts, and
anything else probably does not have a permit,
okay, and probably was built without a permit.
I'm only saying that, again, in my particular
opinion. I don't know that. I have not
reviewed it, okay, to make that determination
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
and that's basically the situation.
MR. Schwartz: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, the requests
for those particular -- they were boathouses,
okay, boat sheds that there was -- and they
were in an area where the height was 10 feet
to the top of the bluff and it was the
inability of the people to bring those boats
up and it was mainly used for security
purposes. So they were what we refer to as
accessory structures for boat storage and, as
I said, probably the later 80s that we dealt
with that, maybe one in the early 90s,
whatever, but I can only remember two.
Leslie, anything else?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Nope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Michael?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Okay, I'm Mike
Verity, Chief Building Inspector, Town of
Southold.
I heard the quick discussion, as I was
coming back in, in reference to the barbecue
pit area. As long as that's at grade, there
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
is not a problem with it. If that remains
above grade, as it appears to be constructed
now, that will need a variance to side yard
just to make you aware of that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what we were
thinking, okay, and when you refer to at about
grade, you're saying basically on grade.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: At grade. I
know you don't like the lawn mover thing, but
drive across it with a lawn mower, wheelbarrow
or whatever, bicycle, at grade. I know it
states at grade on the amendment that was
made, which could definitely be criticized for
being incorrect, because on the plan, the plan
view, it states at grade, but an elevation
view of it shows it 6-1/2 inches above.
That's not the same in the eyes of the
Building Department, so it's got to be one or
the other, and if it's raised above grade,
then it requires a variance because it's too
close to the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It doesn't make a
difference how high above grade, as long as
it's above grade.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR. It's above
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
grade, that's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean it could be
three foot above grade and --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct. I think there was an interpretation
at one time in reference to grade in reference
to patios and decks done by the Zoning Board
I'd have to say within the last 10 years in
reference to --
BOARD ASST.: What if it's built on a
deck?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I'm sorry?
BOARD ASST.: What if it's built on a
raised deck?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's -- if
the deck is at grade, it's not a problem.
BOARD ASST.: No, a raised deck.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Then it needs
a variance to the side yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To the side yard
setback.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct. I just want to make that perfectly
clear.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: But, like I
said, the plan does show at grade, but on the
plan elevation -- on the plan view, excuse me,
and on the elevation it does show 6-1/2 inches
+/- above grade, which is not the same thing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It's
contradicting itself.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we certainly want
to make sure that that's legalized, you know,
while we're at it.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Right. That's
what I mean, that's why I'm bringing it to the
table. If that's going to remain as is, it
needs to be addressed with this Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I'm sure you're
not about to change --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why don't we do this?
How about this as an idea, can you talk, you
know, we can adjourn for a little while and
you can perhaps get this notice that deals
with the stairs, you know, the proposed stairs
to include -- look at the drawings together
and see if that's side yard setback variance
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- today.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, that's a
no-brainer.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, oh.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, just do it today
is required. Get an amended Notice to include
that and do it all at once.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean that seems to me
to be the fastest way to do it.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that mean we'll be
back in September or October?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. no. Do it --
Today.
so we an address it along with the stairs.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Otherwise,
it's got to be at grade, truly at grade.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we don't have
it advertised for a side yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's true, we don't.
BOARD ASST.: We don't have an
application for it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's true. It
would have to be advertised.
BOARD ASST.: You would have to submit a
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
confirmation that you're amending your
application for the additional variance
relief.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's true.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a 39,000
square foot lot, so it's under 40. The house
is at 23, 20.3, 11.0 to the stoop, but the
average is 15.5. So you got your 35 there
now. So this isn't --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It's actually
a separate issue, but I heard it, I heard the
discussion when I came back in. It's a
separate issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: So I think
again, one can be handled separately from the
other. If there is a problem with it, which
there appears to be, it needs to be addressed
and it can be addressed in a separate
application.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, it's very hard when
the applicant has one plan and they get denied
and come in and apply, and midstream they're
amending the plan as they go along. When we
get to the hearing, we find out there are
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other variances that might be needed and --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, but
that's something on an open permit right now,
so there's really no need to even address
that, at this point. I'm not sure why it was
advised to be put together. That wasn't the
advice of the Building Department. So --
BOARD ASST.: No, I didn't mean that. I
just meant that if we knew that you were going
to change the plan for your applicant, we
could have prepared and advertised it
together.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I didn't know myself.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I think he was
requested to do so.
BOARD ASST.: By the client -- by the
client, you mean?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I'm not sure.
I think there's a memo in your file that would
tell you who it's by.
BOARD ASST.: Oh,
to have you come back.
it once. Sorry.
okay. We're trying not
We try to get through
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: But if you
can't do it without re-advertising, you have
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to separate it and you should act on the one
and then you can do it separately on the
other, if need be.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we're going to
try and see what we can do. What's the
minimum side yard on that side?
foot
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No,
setback line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
10 and 10.
this is just a 10-
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: The house setback on
this side is 15.5.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but this sticks
out beyond that. So the sauna sticks into the
side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's where
the issue is whatever it sticks out.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well -- and the --
there's needs to be a total of 25 feet, right?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It would be 35
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 35, alright. So it's a
10-foot side yard setback from the -- we'll
call it the kitchen barbecue area and then
we've got a --
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CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Again, the
barbecue area you would not have jurisdiction
over, if it was at grade. The barbecue,
they're not regulated in the Code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: And the -- I
heard you mention the fish --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the pond.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, that's,
again, that's hardscaping. That's something
that would probably not come into play with
the setback requirements.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's raised.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: But it's
hardscaping.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It's a
fountain. We don't regulate fountains. It's
something that you might want to take a look
at --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you
look at --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: No, I'm
familiar with it. I've been to the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You saw this, alright.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It's kind of
like the barbecue. I personally and the
Building Department does not feel that there's
jurisdiction -- you do not have jurisdiction
over that. It's no different than someone if
they were to put a waterfall or something like
that in their yard, there's really no setback
requirements for that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is pretty
unique though, Mike, in the --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It is, Jerry,
it's probably the first time that I've seen
that before --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is because it's
only a visual effect around the hot tub and
that's where the issue is --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But it's an
integral part of the hot tub.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It's not
needed for the hot tub, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the hot tub.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It is a first
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
time that I've ever seen something like this.
If you were being real conservative, you could
probably say that you could include it part of
the structure and make the need for a setback
requirement, side yard setback, as well as the
barbecue as designed. I mean, as-built, I
should say not as designed, as-built. You
could say definitely that they're a part of
the setback requirements, which would be 15
and 20 and I think they're both at 10
approximately, 10 and 10.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Well, clearly we
go ahead and act on --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: But I that's a
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the steps.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: -- separate
issue and that's something that would have to
be addressed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) and I think
probably what's going to have to happen is the
two of you are going to have to figure out if
another application for side yard variance is
required.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, and I
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
think it should be a separate application,
personally.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's going to be
the easiest way; the only way at this point
that we can handle it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we can -- we'll act
upon what's before us relative to the proposed
steps and this platform so -- and then you two
figure out if you need additional things to
make
this legal.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, anybody else
like to speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing this particular application --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- pending a future
application for the completion of the work
that's being done on the site. I offer that
as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING #6291 Joe and
Ronnie Ruggieri
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-123, based on an application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
amended March 17, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a deck addition and garage addition
to a new single-family dwelling (under
construction), which will be less than the
code-required minimum of 10 feet for a single
side yard and less than a total of 25 feet for
combined side yard setbacks, at 3690 Peconic
Bay Boulevard, Laurel; CTM 128-6-6."
Is Mr. Ruggieri here? How are you, sir?
Could you state your name for the record?
MR. RUGGIERI: John Ruggieri.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. RUGGIERI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
How are you?
Can you tell me how
you found out that you had a 9-foot
MR. RUGGIERI: We had the plot
done.
side yard?
survey
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGEH: Okay.
MR. RUGGIERI: I've included that with
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
the application --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. RUGGIERI: -- and on the surveys, the
setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and along with
this, you're requesting a -- it looks like a
9-foot deck on the easterly side.
MR. RUGGIERI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that you
will end up with 9, 9 and 8 is 17, so it'll be
approximately a 17-foot total side yards on
both sides; is that correct?
MR. RUGGIERI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, is there
any indication that that deck is going to be a
porch or will it remain open to the sky?
MR. RUGGIERI: Open to the sky.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no further
questions. Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: For the record, I see
you have a very unusual shaped building
envelope because your front yard and rear yard
property lines are oblique, they're not
perpendicular. So that's clearly creating
some impact here in terms of what you can do,
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
but I'm wondering is it because you have a --
is that drywell or sanitary in the back there
in your building envelope?
MR. RUGGIERI: Drywell.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a drywell. I
wonder why you have not, just for the record,
explored the possibility of a deck on the rear
of the house rather than the side yard.
MR. RUGGIERI: Accessible from the
kitchen. We'd like to put a barbecue there.
The kitchen is right in the center of the
house. So the idea is you'd be able to walk
out of the kitchen onto the deck and barbecue.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm, and what's --
what's -- I don't have the
of me, I had it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I
bedrooms from what I
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the back?
MR. RUGGIERI: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
doesn't make sense in terms
floor plan in front
think there's
can see.
There are bedrooms off
so functionally it
of the use of the
deck in the rear, at this point. There's a
heavily wooded parcel adjacent to that side
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
You have 9-foot clear on the other side
which would provide emergency access and
yard.
yard,
the house that's on the east is considerably
farther away than the house that's on the
west, which sits back toward your back yard
anyway. Probably it would have a greater
impact on that house if it were in the back
yard to begin with. So I just wanted all
those issues to be raised here.
I don't have any further questions. I'll
see if anyone else has to testify as to
anything else.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There was something
I wanted to add, I'll let Ken go first.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is the final
for the Board's knowledge, of the
lot,
original minor subdivision of Journey's End,
which was an estate. The major portion of
Journey's End belongs to the McDowells and
they were not the developers of this
particular piece of property. They actually
purchased it. The estate itself, which is on
the Peconic Bay, but we've had variances on
these lots before with the other one that's on
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
the opposite side or the most westerly side.
The one unique thing about this, and I'm
always concerned about access around the house
for fire and emergency purposes, is that there
is a driveway adjacent to this piece on the
westerly side, so that's pretty good. Okay
and it makes life a little bit easier than the
normal situation of it being buried into a
wooded area on both sides.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to ask you
the question, Mr. Ruggieri, which you may have
heard during this hearing, and that is the
decision of the deck area is a democratic
decision by this Board, you need three votes,
okay. If the Board is not so inclined to
grant you the total request of your
application, are you willing to accept
alternate relief for the size of that deck?
MR. RUGGIERI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are. Okay. I
thank you.
Let's see
available that
if there is anybody else
would like to speak for or
against this application.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. RUGGIERI: Yeah, I'd like to say
something, your Honor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, thank you.
State your name for the record.
MR. RUGGIERI: Joseph Ruggieri.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. RUGGIERI: I'm senior, he's junior.
It's a unique situation where my son is a
contractor/builder and he agreed to put up the
house for me and he knows I have special needs
because I have double hip replacement and bad
asthma. So he went back and forth diligently
to the Town to try and fit a ranch on a very
crazy shaped property and I give him a lot of
credit for that. Then I saw the backyard and
I indicated to him I thought it would be flush
with the back. I can't get down these steps
that easily and he said even if I can, I'll
build you a small deck there, and that's what
I basically asked him for so I'm not
inconvenienced.
With the garage, right now, my wife and I
feel that if we could afford it we would do
it, but we're willing to let that go at this
moment because he already put up the wall on
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
that side of the house and my wife also feels
because that other house on the west is so
close and the dinning room window is in the
shape of a bay window she doesn't want a wall
coming out and blocking it. So if anything
what I -- I wanted the garage selfishly so I
could pull my car in and not get wet if it's
bad weather, but I would be willing to foresee
that if I had that deck on the back of my
house. So that's what I'm really looking for,
at this point. Okay? But I want to thank my
son for taking all the time with this and I
think he's been doing a very nice job and I'm
not prejudiced either. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Anybody else like to speak?
Okay, hearing no further comment, I'll
make a motion closing the hearing, reserving
decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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135
ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CONT'D HEARING #6288 S. and D Villareal
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BARRETT: My name is Robert Barrett
and this is a continuation a previous
discussion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What have you come
up with, sir?
MR. BARRETT: Well, my client, on behalf
of himself and his wife, and I have talked it
through, we've actually discussed it openly
with Mike and, clearly, we do need the
variance that the auxiliary building being in
the front yard, but with the exception of that
my client is willing to ask me to modify the
drawings and bring them in-line with all the
other Code -- uh, zoning requirements.
The only thing we're a bit anxious about
is we would like to stay with the 35-foot
setback. The actual building will now be 33
feet deep rather than 40 and the width will be
20 feet, so it'll be a 660-square-foot
footprint.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry, you said
616 or 660?
MEMBER WEISMAN: To Code.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. BARRETT: Yes, per Code. What we're
going to do is we're going to -- the drawing
as you see it right now, we have two separate
doors. What we'll do is we'll go to a 16-foot
wide door supported with a beam inside the
garage and the height of the building will be
18 feet and the width of the building will be
20 feet. I have committed to him that I'll
have the drawings modified, you know, within
the next 36-40 hours. We then have to present
that to the Building Department, get them to
disapprove it, on the basis that it's in the
front yard, and then we'll pass it over to --
well, the Building Department will pass it on
to you guys.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good. What about the
side yard?
MR. BARRETT: Sorry?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Side yard?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Conforming.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, conforming.
MR. BARRETT: The building is 20 feet
wide so the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you can now do 15.
MR. BARRETT: -- side setbacks will now
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
be 15 feet on both sides.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BARRETT: In fact, I'll --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's the
plan, okay.
MR. BARRETT: If there's basically plan
signed off by Mr. Villareal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Let's mark it for the
record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you're going to
give us the actual stamped plans.
MR. BARRETT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BARRETT: Very quickly.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Mr. Chairman,
he stated that he would submit it back to us,
it doesn't need to be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It doesn't need to
be.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: No.
The application that you have
them should suffice. Again, that's up to the
Board and to the attorney.
MR. BARRETT: Oh, thank you. I don't
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in front of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
need the disapproval --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So all we need is
138
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just your amended plans.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. I just wanted to ask
the Board, just so we can officially include
what we have to in our record or not include
it, do you want copies of the amended plan
before you vote?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, so we would also need
to have six copies, please, of the amended
plan when you do them, Mr. Barrett.
MR. BARRETT:
BOARD ASST.:
disapproval later.
MR. BARRETT:
copies.
BOARD ASST.:
Oh, yes.
With the amended
Okay.
Yes, I've give you six
And I just -- I had a
question, during the testimony you said it
16-foot wide building --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: No, that's
door.
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the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The door.
MR. BARRETT: 16, the door.
BOARD ASST.: The door was 16, okay, so
the building was 20.
feet.
UNIDENTIFIED: The building is
20 by 36
MEMBER WEISMAN: 20 by 33 feet.
BOARD ASST.: 20 by 33 and 18 foot high.
Thank you very much.
MR. BARRETT: 660 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 15-foot side yard
setbacks on the sides.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MR. BARRETT: By the way, I made one
minor error when we were talking. You
mentioned small parts and the small parts is
the area under the roof truss where you have
to bend down and you could just lay things
that are small in that area. I was trying to
differentiate between those and ten 8 by 4
sheets of drywell, which we plan probably to
have in the center.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Wonderful.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Chairman, I'm assuming
that's one story with 18 feet, I didn't hear
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I think it's
going to be two-story.
MR. BARRETT: Yes, we're going to have
the roof truss. It's the usual 30-square-
foot.
BOARD ASST.:
Barrett? It's 18
MR. BARRETT:
It's 18 feet per Code,
feet per Code?
18 feet per Code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the loft
above?
MR. BARRETT: Yes.
storage
Mr.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Interior stair access.
MR. BARRETT: We would like to have some
kind of a pull-down stairs.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pull-down.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Will there be a half
bath?
MR. BARRETT: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No bath.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No plumbing.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And you're going to
try to maintain the same garage/first floor
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
141
ceiling height?
MR. BARRETT: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Probably for the
truck, the height of the trucks.
MR. BARRETT: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the second floor
ceiling height would be approximately 5 feet,
I'm going --
MR. BARRETT: (inaudible) have to bend
down.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. No further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Everything you've
heard, Michael, is conforming; is that
correct?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Sounds like it
is, yes, at this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we'll put
the normal restrictions on it. Okay, that it
only be used for storage. I usually use the
words dead storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No heat, no plumbing.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, no
plumbing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I'm serious
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
because this is not a commercial operation.
This is a very simply a storage situation.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Would
anybody else like to be heard?
Sir, just come up and reiterate your name
and --
MR. DAVIS: Bob Davis, 235 Leonard
Street. I wasn't clear on the amount of space
between that front yard and the building. Is
that yet --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 35 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: He's proposing it as 35-
foot setback.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which is a
conforming setback for a primary structure,
okay, which is what the Code requires for a
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: A house.
MR. DAVIS: So is that what is going to
happen or --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what we
would like to do.
MR. DAVIS: You said something about
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
before you would move it closer to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's only if it
was bigger. I was concerned about it going
back farther if it was bigger.
I have to tell you from the pictures that
you have submitted, I think it would be better
in this particular situation that it was a
little closer to or at least the original
presentation, in that position because if
there's storage, it would be stored in back of
the building and you would probably see less.
MR. DAVIS: 35 feet is a lot of room.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I'm not talking
about in front of the building. I'm saying
that in front of the building, it's a front
yard situation, so you're really not supposed
to store anything in the front yard.
MR. DAVIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any fixture at all.
Okay and the -- and you were absolutely right
on the dollars when you mentioned the word
what is the conforming fence height and it's
four feet.
MR. DAVIS: Okay, alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Up to that
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
35 feet. So what you do at 35 is then step it
back up to the 36, excuse me, to the 6 feet.
From the entire front yard area, the front
yard is supposed to be 4 feet.
MR. DAVIS: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we condition that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, sure. Is
there anybody else?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing reserving decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING %6290 - Spiro Geroulanos
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124A, based on an application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
March 5, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
raised patio and swimming pool construction
which will be less than the minimum code-
required 40 ft. front yard setback on this
31,915 square feet parcel, located at 2130
Broadwaters Road and Crabbers
Cutchogue; CTM 104-9-13."
Garrett, let me ask you a
(unopened) Road,
couple of
questions. How much regrading is needed as
applied for?
MR. STRANG: We are going to be regrading
the area within the confines of the retaining
wall shown on the site plan, adding fill.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
MR. STRANG: (Inaudible) how we even got
here, would that be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, sure. Why not?
MR. STRANG: Okay. Great. First of all,
for the record, Garrett Strang, architect,
offices at 1230 Travelers Street, Southold
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
here on behalf of the applicant, Spiro
Geroulanos.
Well, I'd just like to make a point that
with respect to the legal notices and the
green cards, I have submitted to the Board or
to the office three of the four and the fourth
one, as of this morning's mail, still has not
yet arrived. So once I get it, I'll be happy
to bring it over to the office.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. STRANG: Actually, our original
design here for this property had the pool
placed in a location that would not require a
variance and that was our preferred situation,
myself and the owner. We submitted that
design to the Trustees and they granted us a
permit. Subsequent to that, we submitted it
to the DEC for a determine of no jurisdiction
that was based on the fact that all the
proposed work, being retaining wall, pool,
terrace and the like, was behind the 10-foot
elevation contour, which is a typical non-
jurisdiction determination line for the DEC
and has been for years.
The DEC, in reviewing, it decided to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
refuse it and request a full permit
application. We mentioned to them that the
property immediately adjacent, which has a
similar pool and terrace situation in a
similar location on the property, had received
a non-jurisdiction determination. They
basically said well someone must have done
that in error and we don't care about that, we
want you to do a full permit and we submitted
that permit and they denied it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: On what basis?
MR. STRANG: On the fact that it was less
than 75 feet from the edge of the edge of the
wetlands. So we -- they came back, as part of
that denial, they came back and said we'd like
it relocated to be placed where the existing
deck and hot tub are. We mentioned to them
that to do that would not only require a
variance from the local Zoning Board, but that
we'd also have to move cesspools and the like
and bring in additional fill and they
basically said, just deal with it. That was
their position. That was the only thing that
they would find acceptable.
So, according to that, we amended the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Drawing, which is what you're looking at in
front you presently, and they did, in fact,
grant us a permit for that, which you see. It
has received a DEC permit. So, at this point,
what I'd like to do just for the record, so
you have it, would be to present some copies
of the original plan, the Trustees' plan, the
DEC denial and request that we put it where
the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. STRANG: -- pool, you know, where the
present deck and hot tub is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, did Trustees also
approve this plan that's before us?
MR. STRANG: The Trustees -- I am
waiting, based on a conversation I had with
the Trustees, I'm awaiting a decision from
this Board in the event that there is any
further amendments made as a condition of your
approval, which hopefully there won't be, so
that we can put it in front of the Trustees
and get their approval on a final layout.
Again, I'm hopeful that this Board will concur
that what we have is acceptable.
I did run it past the Trustees. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
consensus -- I shouldn't say the consensus,
the input that I got was given the fact that
the pool is now being placed further away from
the wetlands then what they originally granted
a permit on, it should not encounter any
challenges with them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the plan that the
DEC approved is the one that -- it's the one
that proposes to include an area of grass?
MR. STRANG: The one you're looking at is
presently in front of you is the one I just
submitted, which is the one that they denied.
Okay and that would not have required a
variance and that was our hopes. We didn't
want to have to come before the Zoning Board
for relief so we placed it where we felt that
would not be a challenge with the
understanding that most -- I shouldn't say
most likely, I was fully convinced that we
would -- we would be able to get a non-
jurisdiction determination from the DEC and
for some reason --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
setback from Crabbers;
So you have a 16-foot
is that right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which would have
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
been a side yard, right?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which would have been --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, a front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a front yard, but
it's -- Yeah, it's a road. Here it's 16 and
the pool at 22.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, but that's the side of
a neighboring property. Crabbers is on the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, gotcha. On the
other side altogether.
MR. STRANG: (Inaudible). Right, we'll
still be in compliance with that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Okay.
MR. STRANG: We went through that at
length with the Building Department and
everybody concurred that that would be without
the need for a variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it was seaward of the
house, but still 75 -- well --
MR. STRANG: Well, it's 50 feet -- it's
50 feet to the wall and a little more than
that to the pool, but again the Trustees
granted a permit on that, which we have in our
possession, but the DEC decided no, we're not
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
going to give you no jurisdiction. You have
to get a permit and then when he did it, they
said no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright,
LWRP consistency letter.
got.
well we have an
MR. STRANG: Okay. Yes, that was what I
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, we all
know the whole story of Crabbers and I'm sure
you wanted to avoid that as much as would like
to have avoided that.
MR. STRANG: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I see there are no
neighbors here, which relieves me greatly.
MR. STRANG: That's a good sign.
Actually, I've never played to a packed house
before, so this is kind of cozy.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, this is rather
nice.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're still on the
record, though.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm trying to find the -
- wait a minute I've got them here someplace.
I have to write this up so I have to make sure
I have all the testimony. Where are these --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
here we go. This is the current one that's
before us with a setback from Crabbers of 7
feet.
MR. STRANG: 12 feet to the pool, 7 feet
to the retaining wall, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How high is that
retaining wall above grade?
MR. STRANG: That retaining wall is --
there are -- there were -- I did submit some
cross-section profiles, if you will.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see the (inaudible).
MR. STRANG: At the level of the pool
where the retaining wall is for the pool
itself, the highest point that retaining wall
is above the new lawn area and I emphasize the
word new, cause we are raising the grade to
put in -- make lawn, is 2.3 -- 2-1/2 feet. A
little bit less than 2-1/2 feet max --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. STRANG: -- that that wall will be
and the pool terrace itself will be above the
adjacent lawn area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the whole platform
that the pool is sitting on is going to be 2-
1/2 feet above the existing grade.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. STRANG: Above the adjacent lawn, but
again adjacent lawn is being created by
another retaining wall out beyond that, which
is not a part of this application -- it was
deemed not to be -- to raise the grade up
higher, but essentially -- and that was
approved by -- that retaining wall was
approved by the Trustees as well to create a
larger lawn area, play area for the children,
but the only thing that's in contest here,
with respect to zoning, is the pool and the
retaining wall that's immediately adjacent to
the pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, so that's the one
that's parallel with Crabbers and that's the
one that's 2-1/2
BOARD ASST.:
MR. STRANG:
foot high in elevation.
Yeah, it's right here.
This here is -- let me get
my bearings straight. Yes, this wall here is
2-1/2 feet above this grade --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. STRANG: -- and these walls have been
added to raise the grade above what is
existing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. STRANG: At highest here, four feet
above this and (inaudible) topography. So
we're at a point where this is actually, I
believe, if I recall correctly, this terrace
is either at or slightly below the deck level
that's already there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So how high is this
going to be along Crabbers?
MR. STRANG: That's goes from zero at
this point --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, with the
elevation.
MR. STRANG: -- to four feet at this
point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah cause it slopes.
MR. STRANG: Right, the grade is dropping
is down. That way they have this area, see
cause they have young children, so they have
an area here that they can develop with lawn
and kids can play and not have to be
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're adding -- well
this has approval
over here?
MR. STRANG:
from the DEC, the drywells
Yes. Everything on this
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ZBA Town of $outhold - June 25, 2009
plan is exactly what went to the DEC.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Wow. Really there's a
lot more land disturbance going on this way
over here than what you proposed before, a
whole lot more, a whole lot more. You got
room to put them over here, actually, along
the side yard with Crabbers.
MR. STRANG: Well, see I think their
position is that they looked at this, since we
are filing this area anyway, to just drop the
pool in place and then fill around it is not
that much of a consequence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, this is all very
heavily vegetated right now.
MR. STRANG: There's some vegetation,
there's some trees. Some of the trees are in
very sad shape, so they were slated to come
out even under the original application. We
do have a non-disturbance area right along
{inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible)? Yeah.
It's 50 feet. It's so hard to know where the
wetlands are designated when you walk the
property.
MR. STRANG: They were staked --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I did see that.
MR. STRANG: -- about a year ago.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I didn't see anything
down here. I saw the stuff up here
(inaudible).
MR. STRANG: There were stakes for the
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
even a travelled road on the original
subdivision along the water down there and
it's really quite crazy the way that whole
thing --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's really weird.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, well I don't know if
there was a road or just an easement
(inaudible) vehicular traffic.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it was the
vehicular one, but it was -- yeah.
MR. STRANG: It was for pedestrians so
people could walk the shore.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and their
horses and, you know,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to need to be?
I saw those.
In reality, there's
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How high is this going
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. STRANG: This is all four feet or
less at this point. (inaudible) to the
highest.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
would be --
The highest on there
-- again, you hit
Mr. Strang, in
property
Road?
MR.
reference to based upon what we're going to
ask for, is your client willing to take
alternate relief if we cannot arrive at a 7-
foot figure from Crabbers Road or that
line that's contiguous to Crabbers
STRANG: I think he would be, within
reason, although we're really tight in there.
The house exists. That's it, we can't move
the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it right on the head there,
MR. STRANG: -- differential between
(inaudible) grade and existing grade here is
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, can I just
ask the proverbial question --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. STRANG: We need some circulation
area around the pool we kept it to a minimum
as you can see. The difference between the
12-foot and the 7 feet leaves only 5 feet to
walk, like the width of a normal sidewalk, to
walk between the pool and the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Retaining wall.
MR. STRANG: -- retaining wall and it's
similar at the closest point on the other
side, which again is because of the jut out of
the house. We have to kind of work around
that. So again, I think we already
(inaudible). four feet over there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Between that jut
out and the house?
MR. STRANG: Between the jut out, yeah,
between the jut out and the pool, I think is
about four feet, if I'm not mistaken, and
we're kinda, we're kinda tight. The pool is,
I mean --
MEMBER WEISMAN: 18 feet wide.
MR. STRANG: 18 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's been reduced a
little bit.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, the pool is an 18 --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
it's an 18 by 36. Typical pools had been 20
by 40. Now, the typical pool is 25 by 50,
obviously, that's not going to work here. So
we went to the 18 by 36, which is a little bit
small, but it's usable, certainly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is this a Gunite
pool or is it liner?
MR. STRANG: At this point, it could go
either way, but I think from an economic point
of view, we'll probably do it as a vinyl liner
with either a concrete or block wall situation
since we do have to bring fill in.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. It's a lot of
grading.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to be
beautiful when it's done.
We thank you.
Anybody else like to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING #6287 - Michael Conway
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Board Inspector's
November 6, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed addition with alteration
to the existing single-family dwelling on a
nonconforming 21,000+/- square foot lot, for
the reason that the new construction will be
less than the code-required minimum side yard
of 15 feet, at 2950 Rocky Point Road, East
Marion; CTM 31-2-1."
Who would like to be heard?
Would you use the mike, sir, and state
your name for the record?
MR. BEIN: Rich Bein, contractor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you?
MR. BEIN: Very good, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us?
MR. BEIN: Well, the only thing I can say
is that the house was built once upon a time
back in the 50s or 405 or 30s, we don't know
by the CO, and they didn't have 10-foot --
they had 10-foot side yards or no side yards
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
at all and the house. He's looking just to
add another 5-foot addition onto what's
existing there to make his den 5-foot larger
and we ran into trouble due to the fact that
it's now 15-foot side yard. It didn't pay to
move the extension over the 2 or 3 foot or 5
foot, actually, cause it would kill the back
of the house and the yard at the same time.
None of his neighbors have had any
problem with it. He gets along with everybody
and everybody thinks it's a great idea.
There's not much else to say, it's just a
small thing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In a kidding sense,
I'm only kidding, okay.
MR. BIEN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're the guy that
changed the shingles on the house and I was
looking for a yellow house that wasn't yellow.
MR. BIEN: That was me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wanted to say
what is going on here;
yellow house.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
yellow on the ground,
I'm looking for a
I saw this piece of
I said that's it, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
us a picture of the house. It was
you gave
very easy to find from that.
MR. BIEN: Find it, yeah. I'm sorry
about that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The only reason you're
before us is because you're proposing to
continue that 10-foot side yard setback for --
MR. BIEN: That's correct, yes. For 5
foot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a very -- the
house (inaudible) way over to the side. You
have a huge side yard on the other side.
You've got a big rear yard. It's a very, very
minimal addition and, also, it's wooded. You
know, you have neighbors on either side with
big trees along one side, woods on the other,
woods in the back. I think it's a very simple
request and I don't have any problem with it
at all.
MR. BIEN: Great.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, I'm not
kidding, Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Will you do this
particular application?
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll write it up. Add
it to my list.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have
anything you'd like to say to this fine
gentleman while he's here?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions from me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No questions.
MR. BIEN: I'm sorry about the yellow.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're putting a
full foundation under this?
MR. BIEN: No, it's a crawl space, slab,
elevated slab.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Elevated slab.
Alright. Anybody else in the audience
that would like to speak for or against this
application? Boy, I think you're in today.
MR. BIEN: Alright, thank you, sir.
I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING #6292 - Daniel and
Nancy Fischer
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances, based on an
application to the Building Department of the
Building Inspector's February 6, 2009 Notice
of Disapproval concerning a proposed
subdivision of property for the following
reasons: (1) the proposed subdivision is not
permitted with less than a minimum 40,000
square foot lot size in the R-40 District, for
proposed Lots #1 and #2; (2) the existing as-
built (without permits) one-story structure is
proposed on Lot #2 with a side yard setback at
less than the code-required minimum of 15
feet; (3) the existing accessory shed is less
than the code-required minimum of 10 feet.
Location of Property: 38785 Route 25 (Main
Road) and Ryder Farm Lane,
15-8-1.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Orient; CTM 1000-
Mr. Cuddy, we need
to ask you for the two green cards, if you
have them.
MR. CUDDY: They haven't come back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They have not come
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back.
Would you state your name for the record,
please?
MR. CUDDY: Charles Cuddy, I represent
the Fischers, Nancy and Daniel Fischer who are
the owners of this property. We don't have
any yellow shingles so it shouldn't be a
problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you have a red
barn.
MR. CUDDY: We do. I would like to hand
up, at the beginning, two matters. I'd like
to hand up a calculation page, which we've
done of the surrounding lots, and also a
report from KPC Planning Services and I have
somebody here who will testify with respect to
that report.
BOARD ASST.: Is there one for each
member or is it just one set?
Okay, thank you.
MR. CUDDY: This application really is
two variances because the third one, which is
the shed has been moved back beyond the 10-
foot line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, good so that one is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
going away.
MR. CUDDY: So we've taken that and moved
it out.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay, so
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which
on?
this 10 --
lot is that
MR. CUDDY: This is -- that's on lot #2.
Just the shed.
Moved to a conforming
MR. CUDDY: Moved to a conforming
location beyond the 10-foot property line.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Will we be getting an
updated survey reflecting that?
MR. CUDDY: If you need that, we can give
it to you. We haven't gotten that, but we're
in the process of getting it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
MR. CUDDY: We can give you that, yes.
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MR. CUDDY: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
location.
there was a shed that was close, as you can
see on the northerly line, and it's been moved
back and it's way more than the 10 feet from
the line now.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So the shed's been
moved, not the proposed property line?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
We have essentially then two variances
that we're talking about. One, the lot size
variance and, two, the side yard variance for
the existing structure on lot %2.
Historically, this was part of an area that
was subdivided, which is known as Orient-by-
the-sea. It's in an R-40 district. Ail of
the Orient-by-the-sea subdivisions and the
adjoining subdivision is in that R-40
district. So all lots there are either 40,000
or less and I think if you look at the
calculation sheet as we go along you'll see
that virtually all of them are less than
40,000 square feet, but, historically, this
property, and I put this in the application,
was part of a larger lot, was part of the
drainage area. So this lot itself was 82,000
square feet originally. The drainage area was
not taken out as part of the subdivision, it
was done separately, and that's on the
subdivision map that I put in my application.
If you took the 82,000, we obviously would not
have to be here for that variance.
The Town has just indicated in another
application that I have that a drainage area
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will be paid for as part of the yield in a
conservation subdivision and I want to make
that on record so everybody can understand.
In other words, this drainage area, which was
taken from our property, we don't get any
yield from. This, I think, is about density
and I'm saying to you that right now as of
this date the Town is paying one of my clients
for a drainage area based upon that being part
of his yield. So I think there's a different
standard that comes into play and I think that
that drainage area should be counted, but
assuming it's not counted because that's the
way it looks on the map anyway.
I also want to point out to you that
since this is really a question about density
that the Fischers could have on their house on
lot #1 an accessory structure. If they had an
accessory apartment, they would have the same
density that we're talking about here now
because there are two lots. You could have
two families in their larger house, the larger
house being that on lot #1. So I don't think
that density factors in to be a real serious
question. I think that you also are aware
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that this second building has posed a problem
in the past. The second building is now
completely empty, has been empty for months.
There is no occupant in it, it's not being
used as a dwelling at this point. I think
it's important to point out to you that the
Fischers are going through the same process
everybody else would, except as Mrs. Weisman
often says to me, what about people that come
in and have no permits, what do we do with
them? In this case the Fischers are paying
that penalty because there's a violation
against them. They have to go to Justice
Court, they're going to be fined. So there is
something that's happening that doesn't happen
to other people.
Moreover, if you take the Fischers today,
what they have to do is the same as anybody
else, you or me. The Fischers have to go and
get a building permit, the Fischers have to go
and get site plan -- excuse me, subdivision
approval for the two lots. They have to go to
the Health Department and all their things
have to be current. So no matter what they've
done. The Building Department may make then
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
do some things over. They are not going to
gain anything that somebody else wouldn't get.
In other words, the benefit to the Town is
that they're going to do the whole process,
plus they're going to be fined. So I think
that sort of equals out the situation for
them.
I would also hope that in your file is
the Planning Department's letter and I just
want to make sure it is, if not, I'll hand it
up. The Planning Department has indicated
pretty much what I'm saying and that is that
this is not a problem per se because the
variance that we're asking for is essentially
on the lots less than 10 percent. Each of the
lots is more than 36,000 square feet. The
requirement is 40,000 square feet.
As to the side yard, I would point out to
you that the side yard is next to a drainage
area. It's nearly 100 feet away from the
nearest house so that no one is impacted by a
side yard that's 11.4 or 11.5 as compared to
15 feet. I also would also point out to you
that the nice thing about the layout of this
site is that Ryder Farm Lane is one entrance
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
and the Main Road is another entrance. So
there are not two driveways on the Main Road,
which I think is significant.
As far as the impact on the community and
the impact on the environment, Mr. Treza who
is a former town planner, but is now with KPC
Planning, is going to testify. I would also
again say to you, again, that these are not
substantial variances we're asking for. Is
there an alternative? Not really, but I would
point out to you, density-wise the alternative
is to have an accessory apartment and you end
up with the same situation as far as the
number of people on those two lots.
I think in this case, while you could
call it self-created, I don't think that the
Fischers ever understood the process that we
go through initially here to gain the permits
and approval. They certainly do now, they
absolutely know it now. They probably know it
better than most people in town and I would
hope that under the circumstances, having the
calculations before you, and I think it's
important that eventually we all look at
those, but I'd like Mr. Treza to testify on
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
behalf of the Fischers, particularly as to the
questions as to community impact and the
environmental impact.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going to be
asking him questions?
MR. CUDDY: Am I going to be asking him
questions? No, but if you'd like me to, I
can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. CUDDY: No, he's going to testify
just in narrative.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need to
swear him in, that's all, cause I don't know
him.
Who did you work for before, sir?
MR. TREZA: I worked for the Town.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You worked for the
Town, how long ago was that?
MR. TREZA: Uh, it'll be, let's see about
a year and a half.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MR. TREZA: It's two years, my
understanding was that I had talked to a
previous town attorney that after two years
which it says in the Code from the Board that
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
you work for.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
referred to.
MR. TREZA:
Zoning Board, I
prior to --
Yeah, that's what I
Yeah, I didn't work for the
worked for the Planning Board
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't know if
that -- the Code, my understanding of the Code
is that it's not specific with respect to who
you worked for. It's you're not supposed to
appear across the board before any Board,
which I mean I think it's waivable if it's
disclosed. I have to check the Code, though,
I don't have it with me.
MR. TREZA: I would double check the Code
and I'm almost certain that the way it read is
that it says that there's a revolving door
policy, that I'm not allowed to appear before
the Board from which I worked, and I think it
states something like that, for a period of
two years. I've already been -- just for the
record, I've already been before the Board of
Trustees on another application.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MR. TREZA: Where this issue was raised
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
and subsequently addressed, so I --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: How did they come
out on it?
MR. TREZA: I was able to proceed with my
application.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that, sir?
MR. TREZA: Uh --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
Okay.
How long ago was
I remember looking
at this issue, your name came up.
MR. TREZA: Yeah, March or April,
something like that.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, it was very
recent after I had started.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are we going to
accept it or not?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If you want, I
could check the Code, I mean it's disclosed.
Do you think that there's a conflict? You
know --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no problem with
it. I mean you're an expert in affordable
housing and housing in general.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I have no problems.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
It's factual --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I think your
testimony would be welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would we do if
there wasn't, we would just negate his
testimony.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We would disregard it.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, you could
disregard his testimony, but, again --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you raise
your right hand?
MR. TREZA: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you solemnly
swear the information you're about to give us
is the truth to the best of your knowledge?
MR. TREZA: I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, state your
name, please.
MR. TREZA: My name
KPC Planning Services.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. TREZA: Thank you.
My role in this application is really to
address the issues as relate to the character
of the community and where there would be an
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is Anthony Treza from
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ZBA Town of Southold June 25, 2009
impact as a result of this subdivision as well
as the environmental and physical conditions
of the neighborhood.
We put together two drawings with the
report. One is an aerial just sort of gives
the idea of where our property is in relation
to the existing community with the subdivision
line shown and then, more importantly, the
residential neighborhood analysis map, which
is based on the tax map. We've grayed out the
area that we've included in the analysis,
which included 175 lots. We've specifically
used the Orient-by-the-Sea subdivision as well
as the adjacent land, End at Orient, I believe
it's called, subdivision and because they're
both in the R-40 zoning district. Clearly,
this property is among that neighborhood, so
it was appropriate to use in the analysis.
Also, we're talking about variances from the
R-40 regulations so it was important that we
focus on the neighborhood as it relates to
that zoning district.
The -- I could basically rather than read
through this while analysis, I'll give you the
summary. We did an analysis of 175 lots that
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
are (inaudible), but there on the map.
Basically what we showed is that we have lot
sizes that range from 12,200 square feet all
the way up to 82,000 and change. The average
lot size is 29,416 square feet and the median
is 25,169 square feet. So, essentially, this
establishes the lot size characteristic as it
relates to the neighborhood. We are proposing
lots that are 33 or 36,000 square feet and are
larger than the average lot size of the
surrounding community. More importantly, of
the 175 lots that we used in this analysis 106
or 60 percent of them are actually smaller
than the lot sizes that we're proposing with
this application and 69 percent of them are
less than the zoning requirements in the R-40
zoning district.
So as far as the impact on the character
of the community, I think that we've
established through an analysis of 175 lots
there was an average lot size of 29,000 square
feet that the lots that we're proposing are
certainly not out of character with the
smaller lot sizes and certainly with the fact
that there are nonconforming lots that make up
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
an overwhelming majority of the community.
So, in addition to that, we should point out
that with respect to the larger properties in
the R-80 zoning district next to us, that
should those properties ever come in for a
standard subdivision, in which the Town
requires 60 percent preservation of open space
in the clustering of lots, what would
essentially happen is the lots would become
around 30,000 or 35,000, depending on how much
infrastructure is on the site, as a result of
the clustering requirement. So within the 2-
acre zoning that's adjacent to this property,
potential standard subdivision would result in
lots that are around the size that we're
proposing and, yet, are in a 2-acre zoning
district. So I think that the characteristics
of smaller lot sizes can also occur as a
result of the Town's subdivision regulations
and certainly with the adjacent properties
next to ours.
Again, with
setback variance,
respect to the side yard
the -- this is an existing
structure and, again, it's nearly 100 feet
away from the nearest residence and as a
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result there would be no impact. So as far as
the surrounding neighborhood goes, what you
see on this property today is basically what
you're going to see on this property tomorrow
with a line down the middle. There will be
absolutely no change to the character of the
community.
As it relates to the physical and
environmental conditions of the neighborhood,
I've been out there and, although this is a
type-II action not subject to any further
environmental review, I did go to the property
and there are no wetlands on or adjacent to
the site. It's not in a critical
environmental area and there weren't any
environmental limitations, you know, that
would prevent us from moving forward with a
project like this. So there won't be any
impact certainly on the environmental
conditions.
So, basically, to sum it up, this project
will not result in an impact on the character
of the community. It's consistent with the
character of the community and I've given you
all the lots itemized with all the lot areas
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shown. So you could see that we're proposing
lots that are more conforming than what's
actually going on there now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. TREZA: Do you have any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Comments.
say that I welcome the fact that
is now in the --
currently before
testimony and Mr.
compelling case for this application and I
welcome this information as presented. I also
am very happy to see that the previously
nonconforming second dwelling on this property
is about to be conforming and legalized should
this lot line change of these two lots be
granted by the Board. I'm glad to see this
application before us in
presentation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
for the record?
I'd like to
this proposal
this proposal that's
us has made, I think, by your
Cuddy's testimony a very
Hi, state your name
MS. BISTU: Maryanne Bistu (sic), I live
at 1105 Parkview Lane in Orient-by-the-Sea,
which is the subdivision just east and north
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
of the property in question.
that I go down everyday.
to get to the Main Road.
represent the people who
It's a street
It's Ryder Farm Lane
I really think I
live in Orient-by-
the-Sea when I say that there is no objection
on the part of the people who live in the area
most of them are not really aware of the fact
that there is anything unusual in that
structure or the location or the use of the
property and I can attest from driving by all
the time that all of the houses to the north
of the sump, which is just north, adjacent to
the property, they're all on very small lots.
My lot is supposed to be an acre, it's really
a shy-acre and I have one of the biggest lots
in the subdivision there.
the largest size in that
of those houses on Ryder
So an acre is about
subdivision. So all
Farm that are
existing are all on smaller lots, I would say
they're about a third of an acre.
I would say what Mr. and Mrs. Fischer are
doing is in conformity with the rest of the
neighborhood not only in Orient-by-the-Sea,
but also on the Main Road in that area on the
north side of Main Road. So I just wanted to
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say that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. BISTO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
say, to make one statement which has nothing
to do with this application, but if anybody is
here for the Romanelli application it will not
be heard today. I'm just telling you I didn't
want anybody sitting here if they're thinking
Romanelli is going to go on.
Mr. Cuddy?
MR. CUDDY: Just briefly, the KPC firm
does not just consist of Mr. Treza and I had
asked them and -- cause they are a little
better at it than I am, to prepare this
calculation page. I did that initially in my
application, but I wanted it to be firm before
you, so that's why I asked the firm to do it
and we're putting it in on that basis. Not
just that it was prepared by him, but it was
prepared by KPC because we asked for that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Anything else you'd like to state, Mr. Cuddy,
before you sit down, again? No? Can you just
-- now can I just ask you one quick question?
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How does this compare, this application, in
your mind with the prior application that we
had?
MR. CUDDY: I think there are some
significant differences. I think --
obviously, the house is vacant. The size --
actually the size of the lots are different
because before you had a lot that was 30,000
and a lot that was 40,000 and now you have two
equal lots that are 90+ percent. We have a
situation where I think the process that we've
gone through, the violation process also was
in the process at that time. So we're sort of
paying back and trying to redeem ourselves, I
think. In virtually the focus, I think,
unfortunately, was not on the R-40 district
and I think that's where the focus has to be
and that's what we've done here. So I think
in those areas it's significantly different
than what you had before and I think so much
so that I think it's virtually a different
application at this point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So then you feel
that rez judicata does not exist in this
particular presentation?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. CUDDY: No because I think there are
differences that are significant. Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and for the
Board and I've held back on this, and I
apologize to my fellow board members, in order
to inspect the premises whom do we have to
call?
MR. CUDDY: Mr. and Mrs. Fischer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. CUDDY: We can give you a phone
number for them and so absolutely the premises
is open, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'm just
looking at this from a timeline. This weekend
I have a doctor's appointment early Saturday
morning, but I could be -- what? Okay, I was
thinking next weekend is, of course, the 4th of
July, I was thinking the following Saturday,
which is I think around the 11tn.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of July?
MR. CUDDY: The Saturday after the 4th
would be the 11th of July.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that good?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is it unlocked?
MR. CUDDY: The structure that is the
second dwelling, so to speak, is unlocked. So
you can all go --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we can just all go
when it's convenient.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, then we'll do
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why don't we just do
that?
MR. CUDDY: You can drive right to it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be much
easier.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I'll
probably go either this weekend or the 11tn
depending upon, you know, cause I have a
fetish for the candy or not.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The strawberries are
going quick.
MR. CUDDY: We have no problem, it's
completely unoccupied and it is unlocked.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, very good so we
don't need to trouble you and knock on your
door and --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is
there anybody else who would like to be heard
on this application, for or against?
Any questions, further questions from the
board members?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not at all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then we will --
then I will entertain a motion to close the
hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're closing this
hearing and reserving decision until later.
I'll second that.
BOARD ASST.: Could I ask you if you get
the green signature cards, there's two
immediate neighbors adjacent to the property,
as soon as you can get that.
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I apologize. I
have to modify that and I think what we're
going to do is leave it open until the special
meeting on the 21st and then we'll close it.
We're closing it today as for verbal
testimony.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then we'll
close it in receipt of the green cards.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have two people
that have not --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and then we will
close it totally, okay, on the 21st.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, make that as a
motion and I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will make that as
a motion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
HEARING %6284 - BABS Corp.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Requests for Variances, based on an
application for a building permit and the
Building Inspector's June 3, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval for the proposed reconstruction of
a single-story accessory
conforming 20,082 square
the Hamlet Business Zone
(barn) building on a
foot lot located in
District, for the
reason the new construction will be less than
the code-required minimum of 10 feet from two
property lines (side and rear lot lines), at
13105 Main Road, Mattituck; CTM 140-3-39."
BOARD ASST.:
Mr. Coggins is not
(inaudible) okay. This is
want to give to the Board.
that through the hearing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the record, sir.
That's for you. I guess
going to be here
a letter that you
Do you want to do
Okay, thank you.
State your name for
MR. BRACIN: My name is Albert Bracin, my
wife and I are the owners of BABS Corp., which
is the owner of the property in question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you an
attorney, sir?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. BRACIN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. BRACIN: I have a copy of the
photograph of the posting, which we signed an
affidavit for, and I also have a USPS receipt
that says that the green card that hasn't been
returned has been received by the recipient to
whom it was mailed.
BOARD ASST.: Great.
I like those. Thank you,
another kind of a letter.
That's wonderful.
I thought it was
MR. BRACIN: And my attempt is to get
permission to renovate a barn which, is in
some derelict condition. I guess it's been
like that for a long time. I applied to the
Building Department to get the permit and they
said because it's on the property line I need
to come to the ZBA to get permission to do the
construction or the renovation.
It is my understanding that this barn was
moved to its current site in 1910 and it is
also likely that in 1910 the then owner of
that property, which would have been known as
the Glenwood Hotel back then, owned the
adjacent property to the west and the -- which
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
is owned by Ms. Wickham, and to the rear or
the north, which is owned by the Mattituck
Park District. Both of those parcels were
bought by the owner of the Glenwood probably
in the 1930s. All before zoning existed and
before town codes existed and probably before
people were really concerned about things like
side yard variances cause Mattituck wasn't as
populated then as it is now. So the building
exists, it's existed in that spot since 1910
to the best of my knowledge and it's existed
at that property line intersection probably
since the 1930s when I guess the then owner
began to sell the property off.
So it exists. It has existed for a
rather long period of time. It's in terrible
condition. I personally believe the building
has some historical value in that it used to
be a blacksmith shop somewhere in the town of
Mattituck and it was moved when the blacksmith
was replaced by the horseless carriage. So,
you know, my goal here is to take something
that looks less than attractive and fix it up
so that it looks like what it ought to look
like and doesn't have a FEMA tarp on the roof
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
and it doesn't have water pouring through it
and, hopefully, we can deter it from falling
in on itself. So that's my request to the
Board is permission to -- I'm not sure what
I'm requesting honestly. I think I'm
requesting you to approve it where it sits,
which is where it's been forever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BRACIN: During the course of this
sending out the notices, I was contacted by
Ilene Powers who has sent a letter to you
requesting that the fence be moved. I went
and observed the fence after she and I spoke,
and I did verbally tell her and I'm happy to
tell you that I'm happy to move the fence.
The guy who lives in the apartment put up the
fence as a present to the former owner, in
essence, and he put it in the wrong spot. I
showed him and I said, Jack, you put this in
the wrong spot and he said, okay, I guess I'll
move it. So, you know, we certainly have no
problems with that and, I guess, Ms. Wickham
is going to give you a letter requesting that
the door and window on the west side, which
abuts her property literally, in the barn be
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
eliminated and in the reconstruction process
I'm more than happy to do that because I can't
go out the door because I have no place to go
and the window is already boarded over. So
you don't even know that it's there, but I'm
happy to eliminate it in whatever we do in
terms of the plan and she's further requested
that there be no exterior lighting. There is
none now. I don't -- personally, I agree with
you. I try to keep my lights off as much as
possible. So I'm happy to comply with that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the use of
the building, Mr. Bracin?
MR. BRACIN: It's a storage shed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BRACIN: Not a very effective one
because it's got a giant hole in the roof.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What kind of
utility would you be placing in there other
than electricity?
MR. BRACIN: I can't imagine anything
else. I mean, I'm not planning on plumbing or
something like that. It's basically a storage
shed. Currently, it's an eyesore.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would it be
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
insulated in any way?
MR. BRACIN: I would like to make it
weather tight. So whatever I have to do to
make it weather tight so it's not causing --
you know, so whatever gets stored in there
doesn't deteriorate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't want to
steal this from my colleague here, so I'm
going to go back to him. He actually has the
right to ask these questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay. Obviously, it's
very close to the property line.
MR. BRACIN: Probably on the property
line.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Have you
any alternate design to bring it
property line or do you plan --
MR. BRACIN: I was hoping to leave it
where it exists because it's sometime in the
recent or prior to Mr. Coggins owning that
property so let's say 10 or 15 years ago
maybe, maybe more than that by now, the prior
owner put some concrete pilings in to give it
somewhat of a foundation. Those are already
in place. I did begin to speak to Mr.
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away from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
Deerkoski who submitted the plans about
whether it was feasible to move it. He said
to me, well, I don't know about the stability
and, quite frankly, he couldn't predict the
cost. So I'm going to guess to move it, and I
can't move it too far, so I'm not sure what we
would accomplish by moving it and I can't
imagine what the cost would be. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just jump in
here?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't grant
anything on zero lot line. Okay, I'm not
speaking for the Board, okay, I'm only one
vote. You're missing two members today, one
is in the hospital and one is away. Okay, we
then go into the normal statement of alternate
relief. This is a democratic organization,
you need three votes. We do not have three
out of five. We do not have those members
present, nor do we normally poll the Board in
reference to the side yard/rear yard situation
of where this building exists, but we can tell
you -- I can tell you that I can't vote in its
present location. I couldn't vote before
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
because I was in a Park District Commissioner
for 30 years up to 2007.
MR. BRACIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but now I can
vote, okay. So I would say that you kind of
need to -- the first thing you need to do is
tell us, yes, you'll accept alternate relief
and --
MR. BRACIN: Tell me what alternate
relief means.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, alternate
relief very simply means that as we go through
the deliberation process the Board will come
back to what they construe to be the minimum
setbacks that they would request or require in
order to have an affirmative vote on this
particular reconstruction. Okay.
MR. BRACIN: So you're going to come back
to me with a suggestion --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. We're going to
tell you that that's what it is.
MR. BRACIN: Oh, okay, alright. Whatever
you want to call it. I mean, it can always
just stay where it is like it is, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, until it
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
196
falls down. It actually is probably -- and
the Chief Building Inspector is here, but it
is probably eventually going to be, and this
is only a hypothesis, possibly a violation
will be set forth and they'll ask you to tear
it down.
MR. BRACIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So here may be your
attempt, and this is not, again, I'm only one
vote, so I'm using that phrase, to place it in
a position that it could be reconstructed in
in a manner which it sounds like you want to
reconstruct it because of
MR. BRACIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
its historic value.
Okay. And so
I'm
being very diplomatic about this because
kinda think the building adds some character,
okay --
MR. BRACIN: Me, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes and that's the
story. And if I'm incorrect, Leslie --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I just want to ask
some questions to add some of this into the
record about the structural conditions of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
existing barn. Your plans show, "replace any
damaged or defective structural members within
building as determined in the field." That
was stamped by the P.E., the professional
engineer.
MR. BRACIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That tells me that they
don't really know how much can be salvaged
structurally and how much of it is going to
have to be tear down. I did see that you have
some new roof trusses in there.
MR. BRACIN: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you began, at some
point, to --
MR. BRACIN: Not me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Somebody did.
MR. BRACIN: As you see it, that's how I
got it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's how you got it,
so those have been in place for about how long
do you think?
MR. BRACIN: I don't know. I guess we've
owned the property for close to five years, so
it's before that, but it could be 12, I don't
know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: By the time you take
off, you know, the floor is kind of gone. So
by the time you take off the --
MR. BRACIN: Actually, the rest of the
floor is there, somewhere, piled up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, underneath those
planks. So if you take off the siding and so
on, so I guess some of this hinges on, I mean,
there really is very little foundation per se.
There's some posts. So, I guess, if a case
could be made that it is structurally in very
good shape and what it needs is cosmetic
renovation in place and in kind that's one
thing, but if, in fact, it's in such a
deteriorated state, that makes it almost a
different situation in terms of a request to
move it, slightly, because so much of it is
gone.
MR. BRACIN: So much of it isn't gone.
The roof has a hole. It's an old shingle
roof.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. BRACIN: It's deteriorated. There is
one beam that looks like, to me, like it's
been repaired and it would need some
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
additional repairing, but other than that
everything else structurally looks to be okay,
given the fact that it's an old barn and it's
a post and beam construction. So, I mean, I'm
not a carpenter or an engineer so I can't
attest to it, but to me it's not an
overwhelming amount of work to be done.
Could it be picked up and moved or
dismantled and reset someplace else? I
suppose. I mean, at some point in time you
say what's the value, it's a shed. I can put
a smaller shed and, you know, it'll be a whole
lot less expensive, but it'll be something
from Kaufold's Shed Shop, not a 19 or an 1800s
blacksmith barn that has some meaning to
people who like historic things including
myself. I don't buy old buildings cause I
don't like that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
there's a huge tree,
Can you renovate --
I think it's an elm tree.
I'm not an expert in that, but it looks like
an elm tree.
MR. BRACIN: I think it's an elm tree
also. I just saw it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That are right adjacent
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
on that rear property line that are literally
growing onto and in the -- I'm sure the roots
are underneath the barn.
MR. BRACIN: I'm guessing they are.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you renovate in
place and in kind without damage to those
trees?
MR. BRACIN: As far as I know I can. I
mean --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. Let's see what
else anybody has to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I honestly believe
in this life in this day and age anything can
be moved and anything can be renovated.
MR. BRACIN: Absolutely, all it takes is
a lot of money.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You just said the
major, major statement.
MR. BRACIN: Maybe my taxes will come
down, if I rip it apart.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's where we
are and so contemplate the issue of --
MR. BRACIN: Well, do I -- I'm not being
rude, I don't understand the process. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You kinda have to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
commit to it before the hearing is over.
MR. BRACIN: I have to commit to what?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alternate relief.
BOARD ASST.: What the Board would do is
say they do not accept your plan, they would
deny it, but then they might say they will
allow a building of a certain size at a
certain setback without you having to adjourn
this hearing to submit an amended plan. In
other words, if you end this hearing today,
the Board could move ahead and vote on a two-
part decision or they could approve it. You
know, a three -- there could be three choices,
or if you want to adjourn it and come in with
something that's more conforming on setbacks
to a future date and go back to the architect
and have him redesign it, move it over to have
more of a setback. You can do that as anther
option.
MR. BRACIN: As a practical matter, does
the Chairman, I mean, you must have some idea
in your head as to what is a reasonable -- I
don't know what the setback is, 5 or 10 feet
I'm guessing side yard, rear yard for shed. I
don't even know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's hear
what maybe your neighbor feels and then we --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Also I'd like to have
Mike testify if he has any comments about this
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He has no comments,
he's showing --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: I'm here for a
specific question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it has to do with
your interpretation of the structural
condition of the building.
in a former life.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
yeah, we'll hear from Ms.
It was a building
Let's hear from --
-- she did not raise
her hand, but she is moving in --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're calling you to the
MS. WICKHAM: I'm Gail Wickham, 13015
Main Road, Mattituck adjoining on the west.
I just have a letter I'd like to give to the
Board for their consideration resulting from
conversations I had with Mr. Bracin and I
leave it to you to make your decision.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
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MS. WICKHAM:
helpful.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
ask you how you feel
location.
So I don't know if that's
Well, I'd just like to
about it in its current
MS. WICKHAM: My request to him had been
to move it two feet to the east just so that -
- I thought it would solve a whole host of
evils in terms of maintenance and whatnot. I
think he can work around the tree. It's a
beautiful tree and I think it is an elm tree
and I will say it's been a pleasure to be able
to have a dialogue with him. Hopefully, you
guys can work something out.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. That's
helpful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Have you talked to Gall
about the proposal of hers?
MR. BRACIN: I already told you I agreed
to the door, the window, that it'll only be
used for storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. BRACIN: The moving part I am playing
telephone tag with Mr. Deerkoski, the
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engineer. I should have gotten the
gentleman's card before he escaped. Yeah, I
mean it's a big cost. I'm trying to -- well,
we all know what our pocket holds this year,
than when I started this process two years
ago, so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. It's possible,
you know, the side walls remain the same and
that you just take that wall that's really
sitting on the property line, move it in a bit
and take the wall that's closer to your
building and move it a little bit further.
MR. BRACIN: Well, you have to physically
shift it out, you know, put new pilings and
shift it because Ms. Powers said the same
thing. Well, if you're going to move it, move
it off our line too, which would get it
further away from the elm tree.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It has to be moved
both ways.
MR. BRACIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BRACIN: Ms. Wickham is asking for
two feet. I don't know what it means. We had
this conversation on Tuesday, I think, and I
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called the engineer. By the time we got back
I got a telephone message from him, we got a
telephone call back. So I have no concept of,
you know, cost or practicality.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know what
might be useful then is we can request that
you get a letter from the engineer indicating
what potential costs may be involved to you in
moving it a few feet, lets say, in both
directions off the property line and what the
current structural condition is. In other
words, would it have to be totally torn down
to move it or is it possible, you know, that
it's structurally sound enough to move it --
MR. BRACIN: I might have to do some of
the renovations before I move it to make it
more structurally sound, I guess.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You see here's
where the problem lies, Leslie, the problem
lies that then you need these temporary
easements from neighbors, okay, to do that.
In this particular case, if it's 5 and 5 you
don't need easements from neighbors to go on
their property to put certain things up.
Okay, when you're starting 2 and 2 and this
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is, I'm not putting anybody who owns property
adjacent to it on the spot, but you know
you're going 2 and 2, you know, you have to go
on somebody else's property to do it. Okay?
MR. BRACIN: Why bother?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then you have
to rehab their property after you do
destruction to it. That's why really 5 and 5
is probably the minimum that you could do
without causing any major destruction to
anybody else's property. So I'll make the
suggestion to 5 and 5, if you think you can do
it, and if you want to get a letter from Mr.
Deerkoski.
MR. BRACIN: I'd have to speak to him.
I'd have to speak to a contractor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BRACIN: I mean, you know, it's
another month's worth of running around and
trying to figure this out because it's not a
simple -- it's not a, jeez,
mind right now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I'll make up my
I understand that.
MR. BRACIN: At some point in time,
not worth it. I mean, I'm trying to do
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something, you know, I think I said the
conversation with Ms. Powers. I mean I live
in Lake Grove. I was born in a Hawkins house
and I moved to the house that they built for
their son when my dad bought the house in 1950
it had no heat, light or running water and the
outhouse is still in the back yard cause I
think it's a cool outhouse and I have another
outhouse that Dave Overton the former
Brookhaven Historian gave me because he said
you'll protect it. Well, it fell down, but I
can't throw it out because it's there and
that's just the way I think about these
things, but, at some point in time, you say
well is it worth it anymore. What's the
difference?
So, you know --
MS. WICKHAM: I just want to say I was
going to leave it up to the Board how they're
going to handle this issue, but if he moved it
two feet, at least two feet, off the line I'd
be willing to give him an easement because I
think I just don't want it right on top of the
line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. So
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there would be 2 and 5 then.
MR. BRACIN: Well I mean I'm happy to
adjourn this and go try to work on some
numbers and see if it makes sense.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have three
weeks before we meet to discuss this. Do you
think that you'd be able to talk to the --
MR. BRACIN: I would think I'd be able to
do that, hopefully.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and submit that
information to us?
BOARD ASST.: In writing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In writing.
MR. BRACIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, so we can
evaluate that as part of this application.
MR. BRACIN: So the next meeting is?
BOARD ASST.: Well, it's only for written
MR. BRACIN: Well --
BOARD ASST.: -- they're adjourning the
oral today and extending the written.
MR. BRACIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're extending the
written until the 21st so we need to have the
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information --
BOARD ASST.: The week before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- a week before
that, the Tuesday or the Wednesday before.
BOARD ASST.: That would be the earliest.
I mean we have 62 days.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: So there's no --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BRACIN: Oh,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's true.
okay.
We have -- we
(inaudible) to deliberate three weeks after
today on all the applications --
MR. BRACIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can
following month.
MR. BRACIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
time.
MR. BRACIN: Yeah,
I'm on the road a lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
extend it to the
If you need more
it's just 4th of July.
SO --
That's fine. How about
you get it to us as soon as you possibly can?
MR. BRACIN: Yeah. I'll talk to the
engineer. I'll try to get some concept of
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what it would involve to move it and figure
out if it's worth it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. I mean, just
for the record, I'd like to say I have
profound respect for old historic structures -
MR. BRACIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and it's a wonderful
old barn and it does have, in my mind, some
value and I sympathize with your feelings
about it and your desire to want to retain as
much of that as you can, you know, authentic
structure. The point is, by the time you
start replacing an awful lot of it, how much
is really -- you probably could recycle a lot
of the wood that's on it.
planking and so on.
MR. BRACIN: Well, Ms.
me, what were you thinking
You know, the
Wickham had asked
of doing and it's
simple, I'm not a contractor, but in my mind I
was thinking I'd take the existing siding off,
put new siding underneath it, you know,
sheathing and then recover it with the old
siding. I think that would make it help for
the weatherproofing and help for the
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structural soundness and still it would look
like what it looks like at least from the
outside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Yeah, if you
want to -- really, I mean the goal would be to
keep it looking the way it is only
structurally sound.
MR. BRACIN: Exactly like it is. Just a
comment from me, I understand not approving
zero lot line, you know, somebody, two guys in
the 1930s decided it didn't matter and the guy
who's trying to do something very simple and
hopefully community minded and helpful and an
improvement --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll give you my
take on that.
MR. BRACIN: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the take.
If you can't put a ladder on your own property
to work on it, all it does is
MR. BRACIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
cause a lawsuit
-- cause when you
fall off the ladder you sue your neighbor.
Okay?
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MR. BRACIN: Well, you might, I wouldn't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, not you. I'm
just making a statement, broad (inaudible).
MR. BRACIN: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So that's
all I can tell you. So where we always
suggest that you would at least be able to
have enough area to put -- when I say area I'm
referring to setback.
MR. BRACIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To put a ladder up
to paint it or to hire a contractor to paint
it or whatever the case might be.
MR. BRACIN: Yeah.
Okay, I'll evaluate it and either
withdraw or submit some more information and
see what we come up with.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I wasn't sure if
there was an answer on the alternative relief
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he's going to
give us a --
BOARD ASST.: You'll let us know in
writing on that, the 2 foot and 5 foot?
MR. BRACIN: Yeah. Well, that was my
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next question.
should aspire
CHAIRMAN
the best. If
let us know.
What are you suggesting I
for and we came up with --
GOEHRINGER: Well, 5 and 5 is
you have to move an elm tree,
MR. BRACIN: I think 5 makes me have to
start dealing with cesspools and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So tell us that in
a letter. That's all, tell us that.
MR. BRACIN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we -- let's
adjourn it to the next regularly scheduled
meeting.
BOARD ASST.: Oh, you're adjourning it
until --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're actually
adjourning it without a date, okay, and ---
Yes, Mike?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Do you have
questions of me, Chief Building Inspector?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not necessarily.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was just going to ask
you about your impression about the
feasibility of retaining most of that
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structure and moving it (inaudible) right
where it is.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well,
(inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: You'd have to come --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Before you
do that, we're going to adjourn it to the next
regularly scheduled meeting. Okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be our next
public hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would be our
next public hearing.
BOARD ASST.: Would you be able to have
the information three weeks from now because
if you need more time we can adjourn it to
August?
MR. BRACIN: I'll try to do it. If I
can't, I guess I'll --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's do it for
August, then this way you'll have it. It's
the end of the month in August.
BOARD ASST.: August 27th.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. We'll
adjourn it to August.
Go ahead, Mike.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
MR. BRACIN:
BOARD ASST.:
Thursday.
MR. BRACIN:
BOARD ASST.:
What's the date in August?
August 27th, it's a
Okay.
And the time will be
approximately, I would guess the time will be
approximately 12:30. We'll confirm the time.
MR. BRACIN: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Mike?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Michael
Verity, Chief Building Inspector, Town of
Southold.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I just would like
to ask, you've seen the building and I just
want to ask your opinion about rebuilding it
where it is. How much of it is salvageable
and rebuildable and how much of it would
actually have to be a tear down and if it's a
tear down it's a lot easier to move and, if it
can, be rebuilt.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: If it was
basically a repair, or an alteration to an
existing building, he wouldn't be in front of
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you right now. I
your question. I
between the lines.
don't know if that answers
think you can kind of read
I'm not in favor or
opposing this project, I just want to be very
diplomatic on how I answer the question. We
did it as a reconstruction if you look at the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: -- straight
down at the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not a Walz.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Huh?
BOARD ASST.: W-A-L-Z, it's not a
nonconforming increase.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: It wouldn't be
an increase, it's basically that, that it's in
our eyes coming down so it has to be relocated
at 10 and 10 or 10 from any property line.
That was the concern because of the inspection
that was done probably about five years ago
prior to the owner owning it, Mr. --
MR. BRACIN: Bracin.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: -- Bracin
owning the property and that's the concern.
Otherwise, if it was just alterations to an
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
existing building, he could legally make the
alterations to that building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So when I inspected it
it looked to me there wasn't enough that was
really structurally sound, there weren't
enough bones, as they call it, here to really
-- like more than 50 percent of the building
was salvageable so that you could just simply
do repairs. Reconstruction means you can --
you're rebuilding the whole thing, pretty
much, and you can locate it where it is or you
can move it. A repair is another story, but
you have to have enough there that doesn't
have to be demolished in order to do the
repairs, otherwise, it's pretty much a tear
down and building it new right where it is,
-- you understand the distinction I'm
which is
making?
MR. BRACIN: I understand the
distinction. I don't see it like that, but
I'm not --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Again, it's
based on the plan that was submitted.
MR. BRACIN: I don't have this -- well,
then, I'll submit a different plan. I mean,
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don't see it that way. There's one beam in
the middle of the south side, I think, I mean,
you know, there's a little -- there's a beam
that's sagging that's shifted down. It needs
to be replaced or scarfed and made whole again
and what that connects to. It's a post and
beam, the bones are limited in this building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Very much so.
MR. BRACIN: I mean, there are hardly --
there's not a lot to do here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, this is why I
wanted the information from your engineer
because the way it was phrased on the plans it
was determination in the field. In other
words, didn't figure out in advance what
percentage of the building can remain and what
percentage would have to be repaired. Okay?
MR. BRACIN: Repair is different than
reconstruction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right. That's
right. So if the engineer stamps something
that says 60 percent of this building can stay
put. It's sound enough we can sister things
up to it and so on, we had to take off the
roof, the trusses are okay, I mean, to look
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and see exactly if we can call this a repair
or if it has to be really calculated as a
reconstruction, which is essentially most of
it is demolished from the
MR. BRACIN: I don't,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
calling for footings that are --
MR. BRACIN: They're there,
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These
ground up.
I mean I've done --
Leslie, he's
they're
footings are
not there. Those footings that are in those
plans that we have before us are not --
MR. BRACIN: No, that's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're not there
so the entire building has to be raised, not
raised to the point of being demolished --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the point of what I just
need --
-- but raised to
said before. Now you
MR. BRACIN: So you might as well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- licensing
agreements from neighbors to put it in the
same spot. You pick it up, you put new
footings in in an alternate location and you
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put the building back down.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's the
point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He inspects the
footings --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: We had a site
inspection, like I said, and based on the plan
itself, it appears to be a tear down and
rebuild. It's almost impossible, as
submitted, to do anything other than.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's what I was
getting at. I mean, I want it to be clear on
the record that whereas I am in real sympathy
about retaining old buildings right where they
are, I don't think this looks like, you know,
a repair to an existing where it is. It looks
like so much is going to have to be replaced
that it really justifies moving it, but I want
to give you an opportunity to talk to your --
MR. BRACIN: Right, right. I'll talk to
him again.
MEMBER WEISMAN: --- engineer and see
what cost is involved ---
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MR. BRACIN: I'll have him talk to you, I
guess, I don't know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, because it's --
MR. BRACIN: I don't see it like that, I
see it as basically I fix the corked beam and
throw a new roof on it and leave it at that,
if that satisfies it.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Again, as the
statements are made, other than what was
submitted, I mean if you want to resubmit
something, I guess, in the next three to five
weekday weeks or however long before the next
hearing, we could review it and see if there's
even a need for the Zoning Board of Appeals.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. BRACIN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, if it's a repair,
the Building Department can determine whether
MR. BRACIN: Maybe we can (inaudible)
overzealously did what engineers like to do,
which is design lots of stuff and I'm thinking
of a simple repair of a barn that's not going
to do much except be waterproof and not caving
in on itself because of further deterioration
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from the elements.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
plan, that's what triggered the
to be here today.
MR. BRACIN:
then.
I will be
Based on his
need for you
speaking to him
I thought the footings were
I looked down, I saw cement
MEMBER WEISMAN:
ones.
MR. BRACIN: So they may not all be
there.
What's wrong with the locust posts? I
spent my entire life living in a house with
locust posts that have been there since 1730
or 50, whatever they were put in. The house
has been there.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR:
meet code.
MR. BRACIN:
it's existing.
They don't meet code, but
It's what's there. I'm happy
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He's putting in some new
MR. BRACIN:
already there.
footings.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, so talk to him
about perhaps an amended plan that, if
possible, if possible --
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with locust posts.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Even if
another plan does come in and we approve it
without Zoning Board of Appeals, I guess I'm
speaking to the Board, there may still be a
need because of once the contractor gets into
the project, he realizes, you know what, I
still can't save anything regardless of what
the engineer has to say and it's a total tear
down. At that point, he stops, it's back to
the Zoning Board of Appeals. So that's why --
MR. BRACIN: If it's simple, I'm happy to
move it. I mean that's, obviously, only a
very small piece of this cause now I have some
technical information that I didn't have
before.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, I'd like to
close this, I mean, adjourn it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Adjourn it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Adjourn it to August.
Maybe we should adjourn it without a date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, August 27.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 25, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature %.~_. ~~
Denise Gasows ki
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
July 6, 2009
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