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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hail
Southold, New York
May 28, 2009
10:05 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KEN SCHNEIDER - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
ABSENT: RUTH OLIVA - Member
Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Deborah Sutherland and Charlene Mott %6273 3-19
Luke Licalzi %6280 20-39
William and Maragaret Howell %6275 40-52
Stanley and Christine Malon %6271 53-121
Kenneth Marlborough %6279 122-174
Vincent and Laura Manetti #6278 175-188
Michael and Linda Gambardella %6272 189-195
John and Kathleen Berkery %6277 196-202
Susan Tsavaris %6289 203-207
Madeleine Droege %6267 208-232
Leann Nealz #6274 233-239
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6273 - Deborah Sutherland
And Charlene Mott
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Zoning Code
Section 280-13(m), based on the Building
Inspector's January 14, 2009 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an application
concerning conversion of the basement area to
an accessory apartment (without a permit).
The Certificate of Occupancy for the existing
single-family dwelling was issued May 31,
2007, and Section 280-13(m) states that the
building must have a valid Certificate of
Occupancy issued prior to January 1, 1984, or
proof of occupancy prior to that date.
Location of Property: 42205 County Road 48
(a/k/a North Road, Middle Road), Southold; CTM
1000-59-3-25.1."
Who is representing the client, the
applicant at this time?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please state your
name for the record, please.
MS. SHOTT: Good morning. My name is
Maryanne Shott, I'm here as their niece.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, how do you
do? Who are these nice young ladies?
MS. MOTT: My name is Charlene Mott.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Deborah
Sutherland.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. What
would you like to tell us?
MS. SHOTT: First of all, please excuse
us if we're a little nervous. We've never
been through anything like this before.
The house -- the family, their parents
bought the existing structure that was on that
property back in 1954 and Debbie and Charlene
have lived there caring for them, with them,
throughout their lives. In May of 2005, the
house burned down through an act of God. We
lost the, you know, the CO went with that
structure. So they rebuilt the house, brought
their parents home to it and, unfortunately, a
short time later they both passed away. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
it's not as if we built a structure we
couldn't afford, but now with the current
economic situation we're having a hard time --
they're having a hard time surviving there.
They've lived in Southold their whole lives
and we're just hoping -- Jim Mott, anytime
their father needed a permit or did a
structure, he always came to the Town and he
always did it legally and that's what we're
looking to do as well, but we're hoping that
in Jim Mott's honor maybe you could just grant
us this variance.
Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, let me -- let me get
clear on the sequence here. This was a new
house that was built on the site, correct?
MS. SHOTT: After the fire, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: After the fire and so what
you're asking is an exception to the rule that
says it has to be 25 years ago in order to do
this and are you also suggesting that because
there was a preexisting building on that house
(sic) in which that apartment could have been
built -- that building is no longer there?
MS. SHOTT: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: One of the problems about
this is, as I understand it and I've had
advice from counsel on this, is we're asking
- this is not a variance that you're seeking,
it's actually a special permission and there
are a whole series of conditions which you are
aware of and one of which is 1984 and it's my
understanding that the Board does not have the
authority to grant that and that only the Town
Board has the right to do this.
In other words, what we do in these
cases, typically, is we simply look to see
whether all the conditions have been satisfied
and then we don't have the discretion to waive
any one of them, as you know, there are a
number of others. And I would defer to
counsel on this for further advice, who has
also pointed out to me, however, that there
are court cases which seem to support what I'm
saying, which is that the Town Board does have
the authority to do this,
doesn't.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
but the Zoning Board
And just to let you
know, the Town Board's authority would be to
change the Code. You can't ask them for a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
variance, either. The ZBA is the only Board
who can grant variances in the Town. So --
and I do know that the Town Board has been
considering changing this specific section of
the law, unfortunately, they haven't done so
yet. So, again, only the Town Board can
change the Code.
MS. SHOTT: Should we -- I don't know how
we handle this. Do we then ask for an
adjournment and hope that in the meanwhile the
Town Board changes the Code or do we -- when
we leave here today do we go to the Town
Board? I don't know how to handle it.
MEMBER SIMON: It's my understanding that
if the Code is changed, you wouldn't need to
come before us except for the routine being
relative to the -- I'm not
adjournment --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
come to this Board.
sure that an
They still have to
MEMBER SIMON: It'll require a special
permit whether {inaudible or not.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: But you would meet
this criteria of the special permit criteria.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are yQu aware of what
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
section in the Code refers to the special
permit because your application that you
filled out was for a variance? So I want to
be certain that you know that to create legal
accessory apartment you need a special permit
to do that, not a variance, and they have, as
Mr. Simon said, specific criteria. It's very
clear, it's easy to understand. It's like a
checklist.
One of the things and the most immediate
concern is the fact that we are not, at this
point, able to create -- to offer a special
permit unless the building was in existence in
1984 or before. Now, you know, there are
these special circumstances where COs expired
with the burnt-down house and the new one and
so on. That's the one thing I want to make
sure you know about that checklist. Secondly,
frequent -- I understand you want to put this
in your basement, which makes sense. I mean
you may not have anywhere else to put it. It
may not be bad to check with the Building
Inspector because sometimes basements are not
-- you can't convert them to what the State
Code allows as habitable space. It depends on
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the windows, the access and so on. So the
next thing I would suggest you do is meet with
the Building Inspector to ask him to come and
look at your basement and see whether or not
it could be turned into a legally habitable
space.
Those are two things and then I think
perhaps we might inquire on your behalf of the
Town Board. The Affordable Housing Advisory
Commission that I also sit on has been
recoramending for some time the change in that
date to update it because we need more
affordable housing in this area and we want to
try and create them out of existing housing,
stop, rather than building on more open land.
So I think it's very timely.
We can't in any way guarantee what time
frame the Town Board is going to take to look
at this, but, as our attorney said, they are
very aware of it. Perhaps with a case like
yours it might expedite. So at the very least
having a meeting with them to bring this up
and explain what's going on may result, may,
in some movement that's swifter. In the
meanwhile, you could kind of hold on for a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
little while longer, but be sure that the
Building Inspector says, yes, this can be
converted into habitable space because
otherwise it's moot. It doesn't matter if it
can't be made into a legal apartment.
MS. SHOTT: Thank you. We did look up
the Southold Town Code with that list things
that we need to have in order, 280-13.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so you know.
MS. SHOTT: And we meet all of the
criteria other than the age of the house. My
husband happens to be a building inspector and
he's been through all the State Code courses
so we're aware that we would need to have two
-- one or two egress windows in the side of
the house that would not be visible from the
front of the road. Nothing about the
apartment would be obvious from the front of
the road. So everything -- all of the other
criteria is met.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So what would be good
then would be to submit to the office your
reaction -- your response to those criteria
rather than what we have now, which is the
variance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MS. SHOTT: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that list and tell us
In other words, take
about it. Answer those
questions for us rather than the variance,
which is not relevant to this request.
BOARD ASST.: Well, I just wanted to
mention that when they first filed the
application, I did give them the special
exception forms that had the requirements for
the date and all the other conditions. They
mentioned they could not meet that one
condition of the special permit and that they
were told by another source from another
department to go through the Building
Department get a Notice of Disapproval --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, I see.
BOARD ASST.: -- variance because they
couldn't complete all the requirements. I
didn't want to take their extra filing fee for
that, the extra work they'd have to do to make
extra packets. I thought maybe if they could
follow this first step, if the Board were
going to grant it, then they could come back
another time and file the special exception
application.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
that's
that's
know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gotcha. Okay, that
makes sense.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The thing that
concerns me being a fireperson is you can
probably tell us in writing that the house was
burned more than 50 percent or was, in fact, a
total loss and you should really do that in
writing to this Board, okay?
MS. SHOTT: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because if it was
less than 50 percent then maybe the house
could have been rebuilt. So then this is an
issue. I remember the fire, I remember the
devastation. I did -- I am not a Southold
fireperson, I'm a Mattituck fireperson. So
an interesting issue right there and
something it would be good for us to
Normally, the question that I would ask
and I know the house was there for a long
time, was there a mortgage on the house? Did
the mortgage company determine the house to be
a total loss, then I'm sure there was some
sort of fire insurance on the house,
hopefully, and that's the reason why you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
rebuilt the house, but those are all the
things that you should tell us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's great.
There may be some way in which, although it's
never been done, we can find, based on these
unique circumstances, some way of creating an
exception, but this would have to be through
legal counsel. It's not automatically in our
ability to do that.
So Jerry what would you advise them is
the next step; how should we proceed?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I mean,
counsel is really saying that we need to go to
the Town Board, so maybe that's a situation
that they may need to do. In one particular
case, it would put them on, meaning the Town
Board, on, based upon what they're going to do
regarding this law, okay, and how it's going
to be worked. At this avenue, we really don't
have anything to hinge-pin the special permit
to the variance and that's the problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay? Except for
the unique circumstances that you are
suggesting.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Jennifer, do you think
you could help them approach the Town Board,
to meet with them during a work session or
something to help them --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Of course, I mean,
I can put something on the agenda, but again,
as you all know, we will be having a new Town
Attorney starting and I'm sure there's going
to be some lag time and I believe that the
entire town has been wonderful with the Town
Attorney's office and this has been brought to
the Town Attorney's office to their attention
and I know it's on the agenda of the Town
Board to change. I just don't know the timing
of it. So I can raise it at the next Board
meeting, which is on Tuesday. If, again, the
agenda allows for it, yeah, there has to be
room on the agenda for it and at some point
they kind of cut everybody off because
otherwise they would be there until midnight
at night.
If that's not the case, I would suggest
that you write letter to the Town Board or to
Supervisor Russell explaining the
circumstances and kind of just pleading your
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
case and urging him to kind of put some
pressure on him to get this law changed
quickly because it's having an adverse impact
on you and your family.
MS. SHOTT: Okay. So that's what we'll
do. We'll write the letter. Thank you.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And then --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Compile all that other
information.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The ZBA has two
and, of course, I believe the applicant can
proceed and it would ultimately be up to you
how you would like to proceed. The ZBA can
deny your application as it stands without
prejudice and/or they can adjourn it
indefinitely until the Town Board changes the
law. So I don't know how the ZBA would like
to proceed and I don't know how the applicant
would like to proceed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In this particular
case, I would like to adjourn it without a
date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Me too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why collect another
filing fee and make you produce the same
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documents all over again --
MS. SHOTT: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- which probably
wouldn't be the case. You may be submitting
additional information.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Again, be mindful
that a Board member has asked you to revise
your application to set forth how you meet the
special permit criteria.
MS. SHOTT: That's what we'll include in
the letter, is any type of proof that we have
about the fire that more than 50 percent of
the house was damaged, if there's any mortgage
or fire insurance on it and we'll answer all
of those questions.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, we're
suggesting two separate --
MEMBER SIMON: Two separate letters.
MS. SHOTT: Two separate letters, okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, one to the
ZBA addressing the special permit criteria as
set forth in the Town Code and providing the
information that the Chairman has asked you --
MS. SHOTT: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- with respect to
the date of the fire, the amount of damage to
the home and a second letter to the Town Board
basically requesting them to change the
section of the law with respect to the 1984
date.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, just to follow up on
that, I don't think it's either necessary or
even particularly helpful for you to include
that fire information in the letter to the
Town Board.
MS. SHOTT: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Just what you want them to
do and you've been advised that this is
something that you will need to do if you're
going to go forward.
MS. SHOTT: Okay, thank you.
BOARD ASST.: There's one form for the
special permit
help, too.
MS. SHOTT:
I didn't give to you it would
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And in the case of
your husband, mentioning your husband as being
a building inspector in the State of New York,
he's certainly welcome to give his opinion
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
regarding the condition of the house if he is
-- and this is not a sarcastic statement --
MEMBER SIMON: It's in a different Town.
MS. SHOTT: It's a different Town.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It -- the
individual certification is done statewide.
MEMBER SIMON: I see.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, which
empowers that person to at least evaluate the
premises. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you're right,
that -- I was going to suggest that, too.
That should be in writing because they would
be -- it's an automatic red flag when
something is in the basement.
MS. SHOTT: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, unless it's at
grade and you walk out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm referring to
the fire issues.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fire and, you know, the
possibility of making that habitable space
according to the State Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you assemble all that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Attorney,
moving.
by death,
together and talk to the Town Board and Town
and we can possibly get this thing
In fact, the waive of merger, merger
when two properties were merged,
this is exactly how that law was changed to
make it fair, more fair to people whose
properties were held separately, but they were
merged by virtue of death of one of the
spouses for example. That law was changed
because of the nuraber of hardships it was
causing and we were unable to do anything
about it because we were limited by what the
law allowed us to do.
So perhaps this is a situation that can
benefit the whole Town, you know, not just you
by bringing it to the Town's attention.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great. Alright, so
is there anybody would like to speak for or
against this application?
Alright, we'll hold everything in
abeyance and I'll make a motion recessing the
hearing without a date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6280 Luke Licalzi
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
~Location of Property: 2105 Calves Neck
Road, Southold; CTM 1000-70-4-46.1. Requests
for Variances under Sections 280-15F and 280-
122, based on the Building Inspector's revised
February 23, 2009 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions and alterations
to the existing accessory structure and
concerning the accessory building (as-built
pool-house) which are not permitted, for the
following reasons:
1) Accessory Garage building with
proposed additions/alterations:
a) create an increase in the degree
of the side yard location
nonconformance, where the code
permits a location in a rear yard
or front yard on this waterfront
parcel;
b) create an increase in the degree
of the setback to the side
property line at less than the
code required minimum of 15 feet
on this 58,519 square foot lot;
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
c) the height is proposed at 25
feet, where 22 feet is the
maximum code-permitted;
2) Accessory Pool-house building: the
as-built construction is in a side
yard, where the code permits a
location in a rear yard or front yard
on this waterfront parcel."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Gorman, how are
you. Would you state your name for the
record, please?
MR. GORMAN: Fine, thank you. Bill
Gorman here on behalf of Luke Licalzi.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ken, would you like
to ask any questions of Mr. Gorman or do you
want to just -- for him to present it?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I'll let Mr. Gorman
proceed.
MR. GORMAN: Well, you said it all. We
are certainly looking for the second floor on
there. We understand that there is an
increase in the level of nonconformity. We
took some additional -- these were photo
shopped, we were able to take some pictures
and show what this would look like if we put
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
it at 22 feet and if I may --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
This is a picture of what?
MR. GORMAN: Well, the -- you'll see the
existing one is how it exists today and then
the proposed is a Photoshop version of the
difference in what it would look like, after
construction, at 22 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. GORMAN: 22
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's at 22?
feet.
That's the code --
MR. GORMAN: Correct and we were thinking
that perhaps the 25 feet is a bit much.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're looking from the
neighbor's property. This is the neighbor's
barbecue shed. Okay and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we're looking
through the neighbor's barbecue shed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the building behind
is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is what is now;
this is what the new height would look like.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: What is the existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
height?
MR. GORMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
17 feet. (inaudible).
I'm sorry, I'm not picking
you up. There's other noise in the room,
sorry.
MR. GORMAN: Alright. Yes, 17 feet to
grade and we would like to go up to 22 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's upstairs?
MR. GORMAN: Upstairs there is a half-
bath.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For what purpose?
MR. GORMAN: It's going to be a studio
for -- I guess they do office work there.
MEMBER SIMON: The half-bath, that is
proposed, not in the existing?
MR. GORMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
It was office?
MR. GORMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. GORMAN:
studio.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Proposed, correct.
I didn't catch the answer.
An office.
For an office?
Or a studio, an office
Do you intend to have
it heated? Air-conditioned? Finished?
MR. GORMAN: No, it would be a seasonal
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structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Seasonal, no heat.
Yes.
So you're talking about a
Mr. Gorman, is
there any reason why that couldn't be built on
the road side in between the house and the
front property line -- I see that you're 79
feet off of the front property line, 78 feet 2
inches off the front property line, in some
way?
MR. GORMAN: Well, that's something
certainly something that I could discuss with
the client, but I think the objective is to
minimize the construction costs and minimize
the disturbance to the area by just building
on top of what already exists.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have
significant screening between the road and the
house --
MR. GORMAN: It's very screened, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. And I would
tend to think that that would be really an
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MEMBER SIMON:
seasonal studio?
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
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excellent spot to put it, be it one story or
two story, and the reason being that you
probably wouldn't even require a variance or
it may require a variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's still going
to require it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is, yeah, it
probably would require a variance, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's still gonna require
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. My particular
problem is that this building is only one foot
off the line.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's a
concern for this Board, for me, excuse me, not
the Board. I don't know what anybody else's
concern is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, precisely. If you
build it -- the height to code that eliminates
one variance, but nevertheless the impact on
- I mean it's literally smack on, as the
photos show, it's absolutely on top of the,
you know, common property line and you're very
close to the creek, too. There's a lot of
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room on the property and there are probably
some better design options that will have less
impact and require less of a variance. One is
the construction of an entirely new -- there's
no lot coverage issue here at all. So one
would be a one-story studio of some sort,
another accessory structure. The other is an
addition to the garage and it's interesting
because the garage is now accessed on the
waterside. You know, from the driveway you
kind of turn around and enter that way.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So, you know, just
simply changing the curve of that permeable
driveway slightly and adding a studio on to
the side that is closest to the house is
probably gonna have a far, it will still
require a variance, but it's going to have far
less impact.
MR. GORMAN: Are you saying leave it
where it is and move --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You could leave it where
it is and build on this side.
MEMBER SIMON: A new building.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, build an
additional a one-story addition onto the
existing garage, the 17-foot high garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right here on that side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not really
enthused about building onto anything there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right there and just
swing that out a little more to stay away from
here, both vertically and horizontally.
Another option is to just simply place another
structure there because this is really having
a huge impact. I think maybe we need to hear,
probably -- I know you must have received a
letter from the neighbor.
MR. GORMAN: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So perhaps that
individual is here and would like to make some
comments about it, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's find out if
any Board members have any other comments
before we do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ken, do you have
any other coraments on this?
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MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I think they can
consider putting it in a different location on
the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll be right with
you, Mike.
That's exactly what my suggestion is. It
could be a one-story structure there. You
still have the two-car garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Move it. Yeah. That's
right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or it could be one
and a half stories, so not to overshadow the
house.
MR. GORMAN: Are you suggesting perhaps
bringing it up the driveway; is that what
you're saying? Bring it up the existing
driveway?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My suggestion is to
back it up to the pool and that would put it
right there, right where you see that brick
walkway in front of the house.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
in concert with the pool.
aesthetic point of view --
And it can be used
I mean just from an
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you talking about
adding it onto the pool house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I'm talking
about in the front --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Putting it in that area?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- in the front of
the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, right. Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right here. Right
in this area right here. Right in the front
here. Right in this general vicinity here.
BOARD ASST.: The front of the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In front of the
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know what, I
think --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have a garden
variety of screening here. Okay. I'm not
referring to a garage, I'm referring to a
studio.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: A structure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A structure and
that would be my suggestion. You know, I
mean, that would be my suggestion. You can't
see it from the street anyway, the house will
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overshadow it. You wouldn't even know it was
there. It doesn't have to be there, it can be
forward a little bit farther. I mean, you
know, it can --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know what? I think
perhaps the thing to understand is we ought
not to be necessarily designing it for them.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not
designing, we're telling them location.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Yes. But, what
I'm suggesting is that it seems that the
general reaction is that the impact is, as
proposed, is substantial. Perhaps more than
what this Board is likely to consider, though
we would have to vote. If you want us to do
that, we can do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we have two
issues here and that is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The pool house is the
other one, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a
nonconforming garage already that wants to be
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- increased to a
second-story. Okay, not only because of its
location, but because of its proximity to the
property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's number one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The point is if
this entire property was not screened, I would
never have suggested an alternate location
like I just suggested, but I have to tell you,
uniquely, we don't normally do that, but this
one is so screened and so private that what
would be the difference --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a big property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- putting it over
there?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, I'm sorry,
we've been holding you up.
MEMBER SIMON: I take it a little bit
differently. The most significant thing about
this when you walk over it is that here is the
garage, which is one foot off the border. You
would not have -- there is no chance that such
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a garage would be allowed if you were starting
from the beginning. It's nonconforming and it
is a legal unit and so the problem is you want
to achieve a certain benefit.
These applications are about a benefit by
basically piggybacking on the nonconforming
structure. One of the legal requirements
according to state law is whether the benefit,
this touches on what other people are saying,
whether the benefit that is desired, namely a
studio, can be achieved without a variance and
the simple short answer to that is, yes.
I agree with Leslie we shouldn't be
telling you where you would put it, but that
since they're -- since you're not -- I don't
see anyway of getting around showing that, at
least so far, you haven't, no one has
presented the argument why the benefit cannot
be achieved except by increasing the degree of
nonconformity of this nonconforming property
is I don't think we really have much choice as
far as following the state law is concerned.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Michael is absolutely
right. The other thing though is that in
considering options bear in mind that both
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accessory structures, other than the pool in
the side yards, which are nonconforming on
waterfront parcels, so if you're going to
propose trying to do this without a variance,
then I think you need to think about putting
it in the front yard cause that means it's not
another structure in the side yard or come
back with a structure in the side yard and
seek a variance.
MR. GORMAN: So you're not liking that
addition on the side anymore.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or add it to the
house, make an addition to the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: It's not going to need
variances, probably.
MEMBER SIMON:
We don't have any --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
yard, just for a side
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Just for the side
yard variance.
Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: We have no jurisdiction
over what you do that is legal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean they could
request a side yard variance.
MR. GORMAN: No, I know.
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MEMBER SIMON: So I --
MR. GORMAN: I'm very clear on that.
MEMBER SIMON: So basically we don't care
what you do, if you do it legally.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, before we
leave this situation, let's discuss the pool
house.
MR. GORMAN: I don't want to keep him
waiting.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just hold on, Mr.
Kramer, one second.
MR, GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct me, if I'm
incorrect. I opened the door, but did not go
in the pool house. I found in the pool house
two changing rooms, a wet bar, a refrigerator;
is that what exists in that room? Is there
any water facility to that --
MR. GORMAN: There is a toilet and a
sink.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is a toilet
but there are
and a sink,
no showers
MR.
which I did not see,
in there?
GORMAN: No --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes there is.
MR. GORMAN: Yes, there is. Let me get
- I thought I handed up, but it's far too
small to even be considered (inaudible) for
any, I mean, it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You'd be surprised.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it really is tiny.
It really is.
MR. GORMAN: It is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a bench about this
big.
MR. GORMAN: You can barely move around
in there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They need to put a
(inaudible) person in there.
MR. GORMAN: Oh wait, I have it right
here. I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It does have a shower.
MR. GORMAN: Here you go.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, I saw that,
just needed it on the record.
MR. GORMAN: You have that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, I have it.
The pointed question, is there any
anticipation of doing anything differently
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
this exists right now?
GORMAN: No, we're just trying to get
than as
MR.
the CO on the building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
with it.
don't have any problem
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. Okay, and
there is no anticipation of putting any heat
or air-conditioning in that room?
MR. GORMAN: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I just
needed it on the record.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the pool house is
small, iow. It's buffered by the equipment on
the side yard, you know, from the neighbor,
the pool equipment and I don't really have a
problem with the variance in the side yard for
the pool and giving it the CO.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody else
on the pool house at all? Okay.
Mr. Gorman,
dais and ask Mr.
MR. GORMAN:
we will ask you to vacate the
Kramer to come up.
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mr.
Kramer, for your patience. Would you come up
and tell us what you would like to tell us?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Just state your name for the record.
MR. KRAMER: Thank you. John Kramer, I'm
the neighbor to the west and the pictures I
think show the view from my deck, which was, I
think, the subject of my letter and the
reality is both Luke and I bought with these
crazily placed buildings and I guess in 1947
it seemed like a good idea, you know, to put
those things right on the property line, but
we bought with the knowledge, you know, that
they were nonconforming and couldn't be
expanded and while Luke and Rita are the best
neighbors in the world, the next guy in might
call that a recording studio for his rock band
and it's right on my property.
So I'm just concerned about the
possibility of increasing the nonconformance,
that's my issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. KRAMER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the question is,
Mr. Gorman, where do we go from here? Are you
going to get back to your client? Do you want
us to rule on the pool house?
MR. GORMAN: Yeah, we'd like to, if you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
would, can you vote separately -- can you
separately vote on the pool house and then let
me hold over to another meeting?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. No, we can --
you can remove the garage from the application
and we can vote on the pool house and then
bring in a separate application for something
else, hopefully, in a different location.
MEMBER SIMON: If it
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
variance.
needs a variance.
If it needs a
MR. GORMAN: Okay, well allow me to get
back to you on that. So, at this point, if we
could just leave it, just hold it open.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we can leave
it open with a date or without a date. I have
to tell you we're pretty busy.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah. I think leave it open
without a date. We'll probably --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Without a date.
Okay.
MR. GORMAN:
the application, but
with the Licalzis.
-- elect to remove it from
I just want to discuss it
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
sounds pretty good.
MR. GORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on one second
while I look at my paperwork.
Okay, so we're going to recess this
without a date; is that correct? Alright,
I'll offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody want to
speak for or against this before we vote on
this? We actually did, but -- okay.
Seeing no hands -- Anybody against?
Okay, thank you.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6275 William and
Margaret Howell
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116A(1), based on the Building Inspector's
October 15, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning an application for a building
permit to construct additions and alterations
to the existing dwelling, which new
construction will be less than 100 feet from
the top of the bluff or bank of the Long
Island Sound, at 9202 Bridge Lane, Cutchogue;
CTM 1000-73-2-3.1."
Mr. Nemchek?
MR. NEMCHEK: Yes. Ray Nemchek, Nemchek
Building and Architects.
I'd like to submit first a letter in
response to the LWRP concerns. I have several
copies.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. We need
one for the record, if you have an extra one.
MR. NEMCHEK: I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. NEMCHEK: Actually, my client wants
to increase or propose new additions landward
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
of the existing man-made land to the point
that we create another two-story addition to
increase the size of the house. The actual
lot coverage is only going to 5 percent lot
coverage from 2.5. The addition is roughly
double, just a little less than double.
As far as the bluff and the bank are
concerned, it says in the letter from the
LWRP, which I'll just reference now, that they
were concerned with the protection of
basically the ecosystem, obviously, the bluff
and the sound. It sits on a crested bluff,
which as everyone knows is swaled to the
extent that runoff doesn't go over the bluff
no matter what. So that mitigates the idea
that anything is going to get into the
ecosystem or down into this bluff. The other
idea is that we'll put in subsurface drainage
to take on all of the swell from the roofs and
from whatever the house creates so that we can
get it into the (inaudible) as soon as
possible.
The other thing I'm (inaudible) about,
one as far as structures, loss of human life
and erosion. Ail of the additions save a 15-
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
square-foot window or bay window that's a
projection, it's not, you know, it doesn't
have any foundation, we're talking about
cantilevering it, everything is landward of
the existing man-made structure, which I think
is the intent of the Town as far as what new
construction should be placed. It used to be
that landward of the existing man-made
structure was a looser term, but these days
I've taken the most conservative outlook on
that and put everything landward of the house
itself from the bluff.
The only other thing would be that
basically this structure, the Howells have
sought through the DEC to plant their existing
bluff, to the point where there was any kind
of erosion happening, they've shored it up.
So all the indigenous or there's been natural
vegetation planted on that bluff which you see
listed on the site plan that you have.
The other thing is that the house as it
is right now is a flat roof and it's a board
and batten style typical of when it was built.
I don't think anybody would debate the idea
that this was never a good idea on Long Island
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Sound with the kind of wind and reaction to
the Nor'easters that come into here, but we
seek to put almost a pavilion on top of the
building to mitigate the runoff, you know, on
the flat roof and the kind of water
infiltration and those would be attached to
the existing structures and that would give
them a better situation as far as water
infiltration.
The other thing is that we choose to re-
side the house and most of the windows towards
the water on some of the addition would stay
and then the proposed where the kitchen is
would be new and we'd create new fenestration
for the house itself.
So that pretty much describes it other
than we look to increase or link the house to
the pool through the use of decking and either
impervious surfaces or pervious surfaces
depending on how they want to proceed at this
time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there a CO on
the swimming pool?
MR. NEMCHEK: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is. Okay.
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MEMBER SIMON: I'm a little bit puzzled.
I'm not skeptical, I'm puzzled. My copy of
the application did not contain plans for the
new house. I don't know whether others did,
but I couldn't get a sense of what the new
house was going to look like. So I have a
series of questions on this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not a new
house, Michael.
MEMBER SIMON: The --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Here you go. I got
them.
MEMBER SIMON: I know I put them in a --
the same house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The same house, it's
going to look like craftsman.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. In other words,
nothing is being demolished.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I didn't get this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You didn't get the
survey?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
MR. NEMCHEK: We're not going to demolish
the existing dwelling other than to open it
where the (inaudible) structure is going to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
(inaudible) new addition.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Now, from our point
of view, I believe the important thing is you
have this 41-foot or 42-foot setback from the
bluff. Is that going to be effected in any
way?
MR. NEMCHEK: No. No, other than -- the
42-foot is actually not going to be effected.
The only thing that we propose on that side of
the house, as you see on the site plan, is the
15-square-foot projection of -- it's a window
bay.
MEMBER SIMON: The (inaudible).
MR. NEMCHEK: But it's not -- it doesn't
have any foundation, there's no footing.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. So my questions
would be answered if I had not mislaid the
plan, probably. Okay, I have no further
questions at this time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Did you want to see what
it looks like, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
drawings.
Let me ask,
Yeah.
They look like working
(Inaudible), could you
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clarify for me the Notice of Disapproval says
41 feet setback from the bluff and the survey
shows 42.
MR. NEMCHEK: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The survey, I presume,
is the more accurate.
MR. NEMCHEK: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we're going to go
with the survey.
MR. NEMCHEK: I would.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's 41+/- on the
Notice.
MR. NEMCHEK:
were looking at.
I think that's what they
The bluff itself, as far as
the survey, I would trust that more than
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
heavily vegetated. We also
from Soil and Water
the bluff is
received a letter
indicating that when they
went to visit the
resource concerns,
site there was no natural
but where are you proposing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait, just wait a
minute one second. We just need you to move
that mike up a little bit closer to you.
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MR. NEMCHEK: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Where are you proposing
to put in the drainage system? In that swale?
MR. NEMCHEK: Yeah, I mean, not towards
the -- everything will be landward. Drainage-
wise, I'm going to keep everything -- keep in
mind that, when you visited I'm sure you
understood that the slope is actually towards
the swale. So all the drainage I'm going to
keep landward of the pool actually. I'll
create a drainage system that we can come back
and bring it back towards the -- I'd like to
put it in the driveway, if I can, with some
kind of accessible drywells.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well it's
landward.
MR. NEMCHEK: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But are you going to be
able to channel that water from the swale down
the front around the house?
MR. NEMCHEK: Well, if I -- basically
what I'm saying to you is I'm going to create
leaders and downspouts that are going to go
into a subsurface drainage system.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Subsurface, alright.
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MR. NEMCHEK: So we're going to take it
all back around. I'm not going to do it by
means of swales or any kind of grading.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Contouring.
MR. NEMCHEK: No. I think it's better
served because I don't want
the house either.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
to keep it next to
I'm sure. There
is some rot already on the siding that's --
MR. NEMCHEK: Yeah and there's
significant damage. I mean basically they've
been keeping (inaudible) on this house for a
while and they're at the point where they want
to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This house was
built in the 70s wasn't it?
MR. NEMCHEK: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
owner?
MEMBER SIMON:
Yeah. Are you the
Can I jump in and ask a
very short question?
MR. NEMCHEK: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: What is a swale?
MR. NEMCHEK: A swale?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
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MR. NEMCHEK: A swale is when you create
a difference in topography so that you can
direct water to where you want it. Basically,
if you want to create a swale to redirect
water so that it takes it from one place to
another, you know, you could -- if you put
swales in where there's flat ground,
obviously, the water is going to run where it
has the least resistance.
MEMBER SIMON: And what is the swale in
this case, since you referred to it several
times?
MR. NEMCHEK: I didn't. It was a
response to that we're not going to create
swales (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON:
It's going to either be -
Oh, okay.
I see. You're
not going to create them. So I don't need to
know.
MR. NEMCHEK: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, any other
questions?
While you're standing there, we'll ask if
anybody in the audience would like to speak
for or against this application. Would
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
anybody like to speak for or against this
application? This is Howell.
Okay, any other questions from the Board?
Any concerns of the Board regarding this
application?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, just reassurance
there's nothing happening on the seaward side.
There's no change in the --
MR. NEMCHEK: No. Well, other than
dealing with the house itself as far as the
look of the house. I mean you can see I'm
changing --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's just facade.
MR. NEMCHEK: Okay, I just want to be
clear.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But there's no change in
the setback?
MR. NEMCHEK: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And your submission
regarding LWRP is your submission. That is
it?
MR. NEMCHEK: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In reference to
your opinion?
MR. NEMCHEK: And this letter that I gave
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
yOU.
yOU.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me?
MR. NEMCHEK: And this letter that I gave
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the letter that
you gave us.
MR. NEMCHEK: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the issue of
renurturing the bluff, could you just state
that again?
MR. NEMCHEK: It's already been done.
The house --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're referring to
it being shown on this plan.
MR. NEMCHEK: It's shown on the plan for
information because I wanted to make sure that
everybody understood that they replanted this
bluff in order to mitigate the erosion or
There is really no active erosion
on this bluff cause it's so heavily
negate it.
coming in
vegetated.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It really is. It's
dense with Rosa Ragosa and native plants.
MR. NEMCHEK: Which is what we'd want to
see anyway.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
Alright, thank you, Mr. Nemchek.
MR. NEMCHEK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING %6271 - Stanley Malon
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Location of Property: 1445 Fleetwood
Road, Cutchogue; CTM 1000-137-4-33.1.
Requests for Variances under Section 280-
17A(1) and Section 2780-15(b) (c) (d), based on
an application for a building permit and the
Building Inspector's Noveraber 5, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory
garage/pool house. The reasons that the
application were disapproved are:
(1) two one-family dwellings will be
created on this 16,059 square foot
lot,
{2) the proposed total square footage
will be 1739 square feet instead of
the code limitation of 660 square
feet for lots up to 20,000 square
feet in area,
(3) the dormers will exceed 40% of the
roof width limitation;
(4) the height will be 24.6 feet instead
of the code maximum limitation of 22
feet,
(5) the setback will be six (6) feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
(6) instead of the code required minimum
of 20 feet."
Is there someone here who would like to
speak?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record.
MR. ALVINO: My name Chris Alvino. I'm
with Harold Gebhardt, Architect, 363 North
Wellwood Avenue, Lindenhurst.
Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
Leslie, do you have any questions of this
gentleman? Do you want me to start?
I'd like to say something. I did have a
very nice cordial discourse with the
applicants at the site, which I don't normally
do. Okay and I did mention to them that,
regarding the new law, that you're appealing
at this particular point, we're still calling
it a new law even though it's over a year old,
and that the code requirement is the 660
square feet. I suggested to them that if they
needed a small pool house that possibly they
would consider building something like that in
a separate storage building adjacent to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
pool.
MR. ALVINO: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I also told them
that in the past, over the past year or so,
the Board is not so inclined, has been so
inclined, and I'm not speaking for the Board
I'm putting it on the record, I'm speaking for
myself, in granting a building of this
magnitude --
BOARD ASST.: Inclined or not inclined?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am not inclined.
BOARD ASST.: Not inclined.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not inclined and
that's the story.
aware of that.
MR. ALVINO:
that.
So I just wanted you to be
No problem, I'm aware of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I (inaudible)?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just so the record is
clear, the proposal is to demolish an existing
frame garage. It's a very small garage,
accessory garage in the front yard and to
replace it with an in-ground pool in the same
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
location.
MR. ALVINO: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright and then to
build a new accessory garage and pool house.
The first floor is 825.62 square feet and the
second story is 841.62 square feet as
proposed. Now you are aware that the proposal
also incorporates on the first floor a
refrigerator, a sink, a 10 by 15.8 foot room
with a kitchenette, full bathroom with a
shower, toilet and sink and so on. A fairly
extensive, elaborate plan.
The outdoor -- the shower is accessed
from the outside, not from the inside, which
is legal rather than accessing it from the
interior; however, the structure as proposed
is -- I haven't calculated the percentage,
cause I didn't know I was going to have to,
but I will -- it is a total of 1739 square
feet and the Code permits 660, so you can do
the math pretty quickly. It's more than 100
percent variance.
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which is unheard of. We
simply, our responsibility legally is to grant
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the least variance possible with consideration
of impact on the neighborhood and benefit to
the owner, being fair to both. The excessive
dormers are easily remedied. That originally
that accessory law was put into place,
accessory structure law, in order to ensure
that second stories in accessory buildings
would not be habitable, but essentially the
roof pitch would remain low enough that it
would be a place for storage and so on and
some light could be let in. That's not the
real issue.
The real issue is that it's incredibly
close to the side yard, okay, of the
neighboring property. The code requires 20
feet on a lot this size and it's 6 feet away.
So the impact would be enormous and the fact
that the height is not a huge variable. It's
24.6 instead of 22, but the intent is to use
that second floor.
MR. ALVINO: As storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
heat it?
MR. ALVINO: If I may?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Please.
Do you intend to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MR. ALVINO: Here's the situation. When
I first went to -- Christine and Stanley Malon
have been living in the house approximately 20
years. So they've lived there quite a while.
They've got a couple of kids and they've got
grandchildren. They would like a pool. They
wanted a pool and they wanted, of course, a
new garage because the garage they have is
disheveled and in bad shape. They don't have
much of a rear yard and you have to stay
within a certain amount of feet away from the
bluff and tidal wetlands and stuff of that
nature. So we had to take that into affect
(sic) .
Also, what was very important in this
application is the trees. We have some oak
trees on the property. We don't want to take
down any oak trees. We don't want to damage
any trees that are there. They've been there
a long time. I didn't want to put the garage
on the south side of the property because it
would block the house, which is a really
beautiful house and the property is well taken
care of and manicured. The intentions here on
building the structure was, number one, to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
able to put a car in there and get it off the
street and off the driveway to have a garage.
Number two, to have a pool house where, yes,
it would be air-conditioned and heated just
the back portion, the lower level of the pool
house where they can, you know, have their
drinks and relax poolside facing the back.
They have a little bit of space there on the
north side of the property to be able to check
out the water while they're enjoying the pool.
The reason for the height although we're
not that much over the -- we're not asking for
that big a variance on the height, was to put
storage up there. Right now they don't have
much storage at all in the house and, second,
in building this garage we'd like it to match
the house. So as you could see by the
elevations it's a nice looking structure and
we're matching the house with the columns up
at the top and that's what we're looking to do
here.
I mean if there's any -- if we need to
put some vegetation along the north side of
the garage/pool house or a couple of clear
story windows, cause right now there are no
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
windows on that side, we have no problem with
that, but that's the application. We're
looking for a pool house/garage and some
storage and I know we're -- it's a little
bigger, but it's a nice looking -- it's not a
big box. It's a nice looking structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. I agree with you,
it is very nice looking,
legislate aesthetics.
MR. ALVINO: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Our laws are
but we don't
grounded
upon impact on the neighborhood, the size of
the lot relative to the -- so that accessory
structures do not begin to dwarf principle
structures, principle dwellings. The proposal
is so large that the Notice of Disapproval
actually calls it out as another dwelling.
MR. ALVINO: Yeah, it's definitely not
another dwelling.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's clear by the
plans as proposed that there is not a
conscious intent to use it as a dwelling.
Nevertheless, we still have to deal with that
in the Notice; either by overruling it or, you
know, in some way addressing it.
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MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's simply, no problem
having a pool. There's no problem having a
pool house, there's no problem having a
garage. The problem is that the scale of what
you're proposing is so drastically beyond what
the law permits, the variance is too
substantial.
MR. ALVINO: There are structures that
are of the same size and, I mean, I have
pictures here of one being built now on
Fleetwood Road. I mean, I have photos, if I
could bring them up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Please.
MR. ALVINO: Just to the south of the
property you have a guest house that's just as
large. (Inaudible) copies for the entire
Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Well --
MR. ALVINO: That's a pretty big
structure there (inaudible). I think the
height is pretty close to the height we're
asking for and that's just up the block. Just
to the south of this property we have a
structure of the same height, same size and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
mean all up and down Fleetwood there's a lot
of this that's been granted or built.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It depends on when it
was built.
MR. ALVINO: Yeah and I do understand
that as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and how, if it was
built with benefit of CO and permit or not.
MR ALVINO: Sure. I mean that's a big --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Many things are built
and not done with permits. Nevertheless,
perhaps (inaudible) we are familiar with the
neighborhood.
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Our job in part is to
look at the character of the neighborhood.
It's not the uses you're proposing that's
problematic. It's the fact that the law now
has been changed in the last -- it's almost
two years, I think.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's almost two
years.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because accessory
structures were being built that were just so
conflated in size and so large that they were
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
creating not only lot coverage impacts, but
changing the neighborhood. They did look like
a second dwelling and the Town Board along
with the Code Committee believe that accessory
structures should be subordinate to principle
dwellings and this is a way of creating a
relationship of scale. You know, as an
architect, you'd understand that.
MR. ALVINO: And I respect that and I
understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think there'd be
a problem redesigning this in terms of the
dormers, you know, you could just consolidate
them into one or whatever, but the height is
not -- can be tweaked. That's not -- the
biggest variance is the size, the square
footage and the 6-foot setback.
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The bigger the
structure, the bigger the setback has to be.
MR. ALVINO: I mean that's -- sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's this kind of
relationship.
MR. ALVINO: And I mean we're here for a
variance. I --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Many variances.
MR. ALVINO: Yes and reviewing everything
with my client to their needs, and the sizes
they expressed to me and the fact that we're
setting this up, I mean, driving by this
property you see the house and we set this up
so the garage doors are centered between the
two oaks trees. I don't know if you see that
in the elevation, but it's definitely by
passing this on the street this is going to
look like a garage with a peak on the top
(inaudible) is a little proposed 1-foot bump
out with some columns and stuff, but that's
just purely aesthetics.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The balcony you're
talking about.
MR. ALVINO: The little balcony only
comes out a foot in the front there just to
match the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ALVINO: We're not looking to do
anything other than storage up there and it
looks like a garage. I mean it's not -- it
doesn't have windows in the front. It doesn't
have a front door, you know, so it is a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
garage. So I mean, this is what we're going
for.
We're hoping you guys approve it. If we
have to scale back, if you tell us to scale
back, we're going to have to go to the drawing
board. This is what we're presenting in hopes
that this gets approved.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the issue.
Do we scale it back or do you scale it back?
MR. ALVINO: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do we scale it back
or do you scale it back?
MR. ALVINO: Well, I guess that depends
on what happens here today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well --
MR. ALVINO: If you guys disapprove it,
then we're going to have to scale it back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we can, you
know, this is a democratic vote on this Board
and it takes three votes to carry. The issue
basically is alternate relief and that's
something we need you to think about.
BOARD ASST.: Or, if you want a denial,
you can reapply and come in with different
plans and start over.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MR. ALVINO: Okay, so this may be an
expediting situation.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MR. ALVINO: If I scale it back, I
wouldn't have to go through this whole process
again.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. ALVINO:
That's right.
That would be really nice.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we don't want to
cause any undue economic burden to your
clients or delay.
MR. ALVINO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But we have to -- so
we're trying to be as upfront as we can.
MR. ALVINO: And I really appreciate it.
So if I go back to the drawing board now and
scale this down a little bit --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not a little bit.
MR. ALVINO: -- and represent at a new
date --
MEMBER WEISMAN: A lot of bit.
MEMBER SIMON: I think we need
(inaudible) hearing.
MR. ALVINO: Oh, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A lot of bit.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Look at the law again,
not a bit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A big bit.
MR. ALVINO: I understand.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, the gentleman
left asked this question.
Okay, well first of all, it may be a
small thing, but several small things come
together and make a not so small thing.
MR. ALVINO: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: One is I looked at it and
they say if it's for storage I'm not familiar
with needed extensive dormers for the sake of
storage and it raises a question. The second
point which is another small thing, is I
noticed when you referred to the neighbor's
house you called it a guest house.
MR. ALVINO: Whatever it -- it is
house.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words, if it's a
guest house, why isn't this a guest house
because a guest house is another kettle of
fish with regard to the pool because guest
house suggests places where, you know, guests
live, stay, even seasonal. So those are
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
concerns. And I know something that confused
me cause when I first read this thing about
1600 square feet and then I thought well it's
a second floor, are they counting the second
floor? And if I looked at the site plan, it
points out here that there is a supposed
second level storage area of 840 square feet.
It doesn't notice what is, at first,
obviously, the case is that even without the
second floor it is doubling the size of the
garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's basically going to
be at least one and a half times the size of
the original building in terms of floor area.
So it is a really substantial change. That's
to specify a little bit why we are -- what are
we talking about when we're talking about
scaling down. I understand that -- the
desirability of a pool. I also understand the
desirability of a new garage because you want
to put the pool where the garage was. I also
understand that while you're building a new
garage you might like to have some storage
area, but then to have something which has
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
three times as many square feet for the
storage area plus garage, it raises a question
as to whether this is a whole new ball game
and I think that -- because this really jumps
out when you at the picture because this
structure, which is -- part of it is two-story
-- is almost as big as the whole house and
that's the whole question of to what extent is
the accessory? Are we talking about an
accessory house next to this garage storage
area or not? That's -- I'm just expressing
this (inaudible) comment to invite the -- very
seriously the need for significant scaling
down.
MR. ALVINO: I mean the reason why you
see all those little peaks is aesthetics and
the reason why we -- it's really a garage
attic. It's not really a floor, it's a garage
attic that we're putting storage in. I mean
to put a flat roof on this thing it would look
like a big box and it wouldn't be pretty
aesthetic and we are 76.48 feet away from the
street. We are pretty far set back from the
street and I don't want this thing to look
like a big box. I don't want it to have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
squatty roof and I want it to be dynamic and
architecturally pleasing, which it is, and it
is centered between the two oaks and I think
it'll look really nice there. Just
aesthetically while we have this height, we
just happen to have an attic space above this
garage that can be used for storage.
If I were to take the peak on the garage
and bring it down flat, we wouldn't be able to
stand up in there and put anything up in there
and in turn it would aesthetically be a box
and with no dynamics. Like the house is very
dynamic. So this is not like we're trying to
get away with anything crazy here or funny,
it's just we're trying to make it look -- work
well with the house. Keep it aside from the
house so you could still view the house and
then catch this auxiliary view of the garage
with the little balcony matching and just,
inadvertently, we have some storage space.
It's not like we're trying to get a second
story in this thing, it's just because of the
high peak. Any structure you build with a
high peak is going to have an attic and this
is essentially an attic and the only reason
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
why you see all these little roofs and peaks
is aesthetics so it doesn't look like a big
box was built there. I mean that's what's
happening here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you just
let us give you a square footage that we're
going to live with?
MR. ALVINO: I have no problem with that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that's
what we will do and we will close the hearing
based upon alternate relief.
MEMBER SIMON: When we close it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When we close it.
MR. ALVINO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other thing to
consider --
MR. ALVINO: That would be fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- is that since you're
demolishing an existing accessory structure
and the code requires a 20-foot setback to the
side yard, you're proposing 6 feet. Now,
you've made your case about views past the
house and so on. Understandable. Should you
have all kinds of options available, that's
probably where I'd site the structure;
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
however, a 6-foot side yard for a large
structure is simply a very, very small side
yard and while you're reconsidering the size
it might be prudent to also reconsider the
setback or we can provide alternate relief
that will tell you the minimum setback that we
will permit and --
MR. ALVINO: That would be great.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the maximum size we
would permit --
MR. ALVINO: That would be great.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and then you could
redesign accordingly.
MR. ALVINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then that is what
we will do.
MR. ALVINO: I mean, what I will ask, if
it's okay -- I have no problem with that --
what I would ask, I mean, I'm doing this a
long time and a lot of my structures I --
almost of all of them that I design and build
I'm always asking for height because I do like
high peaks. What I would ask for, I don't
mind shrinking the structure and making it,
you know, and complying here with whatever you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
guys tell me you will approve, but I will
request that the height, I mean, I'm not that
far over what you guys would allow, depending
on, you know, when you narrow a structure, the
height I could bring it down a little bit, but
I probably will ask for a little bit of height
variance as well because of aesthetically I
don't want this thing to look like a box.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm. Well,
we'll certainly take that into consideration.
MR. ALVINO: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else would like to
speak?
Yes, ma'am? You can use the other one if
you so choose. He has papers there.
We need you to speak into the mike, if
you would.
MS. HOWARD: I talk pretty loud so I
don't think that'll be a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, state your
name for the record.
MS. HOWARD: My name is Ann Howard and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MS. HOWARD: -- Mr. Chairman, members of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the Board, community members, my name is Ann
Howard and my husband Rick Hogan and I live
next door to the Malons, 6 feet away from the
proposed structure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: North or south
side, ma'am?
MS. HOWARD: We're on the north side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MS. HOWARD: Our property abuts them on
the north side.
I prepared my remarks prior to the
discussion so I may repeat a few things that
have already been mentioned, but I think it's
very important that you hear our feeling about
this proposed project.
We bought our property about 16 years
ago. We've been out here part-time until the
next couple weeks we're moving out here full-
time. So we will be living next door to the
Malons and both of us will be here full time.
Certainly we believe that we're the ones most
affected by this proposal. The first thing
that jumped out at us when we saw the proposal
was the justification, and I quote, "That the
condition exists on nearby lots." And that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
a true statement, the condition does exist on
some nearby lots.
In other words, over building that
requires a large number of substantial
variances diminishes the open space, packs the
properties, and, we believe, reduces property
values, is okay because it's been done before.
We certainly believe that variances are just
that, modifications to the standards set by
the Code. If variances were automatically
granted, then as it's being requested by this
appeal, they would have been written into the
Code in the first place.
We all recognize that in hindsight and I
believe this was already said this morning, in
hindsight we did some things, we made some
decisions, that now are inappropriate. So we
believe that our past actions don't have to be
the same and we can modify future actions. As
such, we believe that these variances should
be granted -- should not be granted
automatically because the condition exists on
nearby lots and I'd like to talk a little bit
on what has happened in the neighborhood.
I'm going to call this a domino effect
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
because it actually has gone from property to
property to property and it's diminished the
open space to the detriment of the
neighborhood and it's diminished the property
values as a result of packing the properties.
So I have a little handout that I would like
to show you. I know you've probably visited
the property so you sort of know, but
(inaudible} I wanted to -- I made a little
diagram (inaudible) and I do have a copy of my
written remarks, if you would like to have
that.
The first property that was built was the
Walsh property, number one. That's where it
started. Mr. Walsh built a separate two-story
structure that included a garage and a second
story for office space and storage space. The
effect of what Walsh did was actually a
disservice to the Malons. The Malons are on
their north and Walsh actually walled-in the
Malon property. So this was the first
structure that was built. That building
appears to us to be about 7 feet from the
property line and in effect the Walshs did
away with their open space and they looked to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the Malon side for the open space. It's easy
to see that this diminished the value of the
Malon property.
The second property was the Schiavone
property. Now Walsh no longer owns this
property, Schiavone no longer owns this
property. So it has been several years ago.
This building is tall, it was a very tall
large addition that Frank Schiavone built onto
his house. If you've been there, you've seen
this house has a footprint unlike any house
you've ever seen. It is very long and narrow
and resembles a motel more than it does a
home. Aesthetics aside, it is attractive, but
it's a very strange shape for the lot. What
the Schiavone project did was to wall-in the
Walsh's even more than the Walshs had walled-
in the Malons. So everybody is walling-in
everyone else. The Schiavone house now
stretches from as close to the bluff as
possible almost back to the road and they have
about a 10-foot setback, it appears.
The result is this property is now packed
with almost no open space and I would like to
just say that when the Schiavone project was
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
being planned, Mr. Walsh at that point was
trying to sell his house. Frank Schiavone had
not built anything yet, but he had made an
application for a permit and Walsh had a buyer
or the hearsay in the neighborhood was that
Walsh had a buyer for well over $1 Million
Dollars. When that buyer heard what was going
to happen next door, he backed out. Along a
few other things happened in the meantime, but
when the Walsh property finally did sell, it
sold for well under $1 Million Dollars. In
fact, we talked with the real estate agent and
this was before there were any mortgage backed
securities and real estate moguls all this, so
this was a couple of years ago. The real
estate broker told us this that, in fact, the
Schiavone building was a big detriment in
selling that property and it made it very
difficult to sell because of this very large
structure very close to the property line.
So now we come to the Malon application.
It, essentially, is going to wall us in just
like the Walsh and Schiavone have done to
their neighbors. That is the Malon proposal
utilizes open space on their neighbor's side,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
our side, while eliminating much of their own
open space. The Malon proposal is out of
scale with the size of the property, as you
have mentioned,
one-third acre.
that, you know,
and this property is actually
So it is a small acreage
a beach cottage was built on,
initially a long time ago.
A second house is being proposed that
rivals the size of the main house. The
additional house is way too big, it's too tall
and it's too close to our property line and,
of course, that's what we're most concerned
about. If any open space has remained, it's
our responsibility because these other
neighbors have filled up their lots.
Maintaining open space should be a mutual
responsibility between neighbors.
When we remodeled our house several years
ago, we were right here and we asked for a
variance because we added on to an existing
cottage. We have a little triangle in the
bedroom, and I think you can see that in my
diagram, a very tiny space that we asked for a
variance in order to make the room a usable
size. I think the total is about 9 square
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feet, maybe went over the line, the setback
line, about two linear feet. So I think this
is what we talk about when we talk about
variances, the spirit of the Code and I don't
think there was any discussion, no one
complained at all when we asked for a variance
like that.
So this affect of the variances that the
Malons are asking for, the excessive height, a
second story, or maybe it's one and a half
story, but it's a very tall structure, a 70
percent reduction in the setback space from 20
feet to 6 feet, and excessive square footage
all of these effectively rewrite the Code.
They aren't small variances that are in the
spirit of the Code. Individually and
collectively, they're all substantial and we
think it represents an undesirable change in
the neighborhood and certainly it has a
detrimental effect on us.
We do have some other concerns that I
would just like to mention. One is the water
and the runoff water. The area where this
building is going to be is really -- the site
plan says it's level ground and that it's
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where the garage was, but the pool is going
where the garage is and then this other
building is going behind that closer to the
road. The land slopes from the road down and
then it goes back up to the bluff. So, in
fact, this is a low point on the property and
as such it's a natural collection place for
runoff water, ice, snow. We see this in the
wintertime there's quite a bit of collection
there. The site plan says that the structure,
the land will be graded away from this new
house, and with a 6-foot setback we're
questioning whether that's going to increase
the runoff and the water would be channeled to
our side. There'll also be some runoff from
the roof, so where will that be channeled?
We would like to also understand the
provisions for emptying the pool when
maintenance is required. Where will all this
chlorinated water go? I'm not so familiar
with the pool regulations, but it is a concern
to the environment. I certainly hope that it
wouldn't go into the creek. So where does
this drainage go for both the rainwater and
the pool water.
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The height of the building is a concern
and, of course, you've already mentioned that
it's out of scale, but we're also concerned
that because it is in a low spot that the
temptation may be to have some backfill. We
have seen this in another structure down on
Fleetwood Road where certain height, I
suppose, was approved, then there was backfill
used. So we think it's not just the height of
the building but actual elevation is a concern
and we think that backfill should not be
allowed.
When we look at the information that was
available to us right now, we see no
provisions for a fence around the pool, maybe
that's not required at this point, or a pool
safety -- a pool covering. We have small
grandchildren, so does Christine and Stanley,
so we would question about the safety of the
pool and hope that that would be covered, but
more importantly, I think that at a time when
we on the north fork are being, you know,
asked to conserve water and to conserve
energy, we would question the Town in
encouraging pool construction from so many
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substantial variances requested and Peconic
Bay is right there.
We're a little concerned about the noise,
air-conditioner compressors, the heat,
whatever those -- where are those units going
to be placed? We would imagine, although I
don't know for sure, that they would be in
that setback space that's already compromised.
So the pool pump, the air-conditioning unit,
heating units, all of these things are
unanswered questions as is the lighting. How
much outdoor lighting will there be? How will
we be effected by that and speaking of
lighting, I'm also concerned that by building
this tall structure very close to our property
line it cuts off some of the natural sunlight
that comes into our property, particularly in
the wintertime when the sun is very low in the
sky. I would suggest that probably the south
side has already been compromised and this is
why the Malons would like to build on the
north side, but because these other buildings
are all on the north side of the property.
We've been good neighbors with the Malons
and we've always been very respectful to each
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ZBA Town of $outhold - May 28, 2009
other and so I don't take this lightly. I
don't relish talking, I find it very
uncomfortable and, yet, I also don't want to
see this domino effect continue in our
neighborhood. I believe that none of us want
Fleetwood Road to look like Long Beach Island
on the Jersey Shore and if you've ever been to
Long Beach Island, you would know what I'm
talking about. I do think that it's very
important that we maintain our property values
and improvements we make and obviously the
Malons are trying to make it aesthetically
very pleasing, but I think more important than
anything else we believe that it's important
to defend the beauty of Fleet's Neck and it's
very dependent upon preserving open space and
this responsibility should be the
responsibility of the neighbors on both sides
of the property line. So we urge the ZBA to
deny this appeal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you have that
written, ma'am, before you go away, will you
please submit a copy of your letter?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MS. HOWARD: I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Okay, would
you give this nice young lady a copy?
MS. HOWARD: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir? Yes.
Please state your name for the record.
MR. HOGAN: My name is (inaudible) Hogan.
I'm Ann Howard's husband. I will not talk as
long as Ann did.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need you to speed
this up a little if you don't mind.
MR. HOGAN: One thing that I heard before
that sort of struck me, you know, they're
talking in the site plan or in the
applications that the property is 16,800 feet.
I see on the site plan itself, the most formal
looking piece of paper, that it's more like
14,800-somehting. So I think -- I don't think
it's quite as large as that and so that number
seems to be floating around and the coverage
of the space at times, the way I figure it and
I look at the existing structure is 17.2
percent of the footprint coverage on the
property and not 15-point-something that I see
also on there. So I think, you know, somebody
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
may be more qualified to take a look at this
and see actually what those numbers are.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the figure
for you, sir.
MR. HOGAN: I'm sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the figure
for you. Building area is 2370.11, giving a
lot occupancy of 15.9 percent. The property
area --
MR. HOGAN: Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is 14,869.29.
The existing residence is 1297 square feet.
MR. HOGAN: I think he mentioned that it
was 16,000 not 14,000.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Yes, but
the difference may be that the portion of it
that is in the front, which would be in the
rear of the house toward the water, is not
buildable. Okay, so therefore it is not part
of that lot coverage.
MR. HOGAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.:
one size and this
size.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I think the survey map had
is the correct building lot
Yeah, the survey shows
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
an area of 16,060 square feet, but that's not
the buildable --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But, again, we're
talking building area. That's not the
buildable area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not the building
envelope.
MR. HOGAN: Alright, maybe that's the
discrepancy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HOGAN: One thing that the gentleman
mentioned before was that there's no conscious
attempt for a dwelling. Well, I would say
there may be no conscious attempt for a
dwelling now, but of course, with the scope of
the building the way it is you can easily see
that it could be. So the question is what
about the future? You know --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I assure you, by
the time I get done with it, it will not be a
dwelling.
MR. HOGAN: I think with everything
that's said, it's easy to see that the
proposal for a swimming pool complex mostly
affects our property and I guess, you know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
one thing that I would like the Board to
consider doing is request the Malons to fund
an appraisal so that we could find out what
the property value impact will be on our
property for such a large structure so close
to our building, even when it does get pared
down is the feeling that I'm getting from you.
Second, I do not believe that the
proposal in a way is made in good faith. In
the sense that I think something of a little
back and forth game is being played and that
is, you know, they're asking for sort of an
outlandish plan here for a pool complex and
that's being offered and I think the hope is
actually that well it may be pared down, but
we'll be able to get like the majority of
this. So I think they're sort of waiting for
this thing to be pared down, but so in that
sense I don't really think the offer is really
being done in good faith cause I don't see how
anything like this could be approved; how
there was any hope for this to be approved.
I think that as such and I think you're
intimating this, there really is no room for
compromise the way the thing stands and that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the plan really should be totally revised and
I think the plan really has to be revised in a
way that's more limited in size and scope and
maybe moves the project to the Malons' south
side. They say this is sort of impossible, but
doing that would utilize the existing
driveway. It would give that a straight shot
right into the garage. It would risk no more
trees and it would put what is now their blank
north elevation wall next to the wall that
exists on the Walsh property. So if you're
going to put two walls together that are sort
of blank walls, why not put them together?
All tolled I think this would greatly
help preserve the open space instead of
putting the large building next to us, which
basically is using our open space in order for
them to have any sense of open space
themselves.
The plan
excessive for
today that is offered is
this small piece of land. It
pursues its own self interest without
consideration for the neighbor, meaning us,
and also for the neighborhood. I think a
little bit more neighborliness would be in
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
order in terms of what they come back with
next time.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Schwartz, how
long are you going to take?
MR. SCHWARTZ: About 5 minutes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'm going to
ask for a short recess while you set up here.
Okay and then we will
ready for you.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
reconvened.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Schwartz.
BOARD ASST.:
going.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
come back and we will be
I'll second that.
(OFF THE RECORD)
The Malon hearing is
We're ready, Mr.
We've got a projector
Can I speak from here?
Yeah, sure.
I'm just very pleased to
be here to present to you a few pictures of
our neighborhood. Unfortunately, these are
(inaudible). I've been living there for over
40 years and I apologize for not being here
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
for each application as the various
developments were proceeding. I was here, if
you remember, when the Curtins applied for a
couple of -- one variance and we were
successful in preventing that atrocity.
Anyway, let me show you the pictures.
This is down the street from me and
called Fleetwood Road Hollow because Fleetwood
Road has too bumps or in Long Island terms,
they're mountains. This one here and around
the corner there's another mountain where it
goes down here and then the road from here to
here is a little valley, Fleetwood Road Hollow
and right in the center there that's the Malon
property; the subject property of this
application.
Here's a photo from the front and you can
see how the road slopes down to that point and
how the property slopes down into the area
where the proposed new structure is. I'm
concerned with how the adding of all the
impervious surface to this lot will affect the
water table in the area. I still have a well
and I think a lot of the recharge takes place
on this property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Just a very quick tour, I only have a
couple of pictures. This is the only one I
took of this front of this. They call it a
house, it looks like two houses sometimes, but
it really doesn't look like any house that
you've ever seen; that's the Schiavone house
that Ann was talking about before. This is
Schiavone's vegetable garden. You know,
people come out here because we live in the
country, but does this look like a vegetable
garden in the country with the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's not really
germane to this project.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I have two pictures
and this is the side yard of the Schiavone
project as it's built. From the other
direction in the side yard you see the air
conditioner. Well, on the other side of the
Schiavone residence is the heating system. So
all winter in the nice quiet winter when the
snow is on the ground and it's beautiful. I'm
listening to the birds' song and I hear their
heater running. Walshs hear their air
conditioner all summer. It's sometimes a very
quiet neighborhood especially (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
This is a view of the Schiavone house
from the Walsh's yard and I know you're not
going to let this happen to the (inaudible)
but I just thought we'd take a quick look.
This is the Walsh's guest house/garage. You
can't get any vehicle in there now. There's a
fake door in the front of it. It's not a
garage, it's a living space; however, it
doesn't have a -- any plumbing.
In the old days the houses were set back
a little bit, not only did they have a water
view they had a front yard. Better for the
animals, the environment and for the people.
Schiavone's house is really towers over the
creek. Walsh is set back a little bit.
Malon's house is already towering over the
creek. This is the Property Owner's
Association Neighborhood Beach. It's a
beautiful open space. We have a lot of
beautiful open space. That's why I'm here.
45 years ago when my parents bought a house
out here for the summer property I said I'm
going to live here. I love this area and
that's why I appreciate you're letting me just
to -- from this beach if you were to turn and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
look to the side you can already see the Malon
residence which is overpowering the
waterfront. There's the Malon's surveyor who
was in the neighborhood yesterday with a pole.
I think he was trying to find other properties
with tall houses. Those are all the pictures
I have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: I do have a short
statement for you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you turn the
lights back on? Thank you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, thank you very much.
I just have a statement I've written so I
won't waste your time, I'll just read it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SCHWARTZ: A balancing of the
equities assumes there are equities on both
sides, here there are not. In this matter of
Malon versus the public interest, a divide and
conquer mentality is the problem not the
solution. The solution is to completely deny
the entire application. Such an outrageous
unreasonable application shouldn't be
entertained.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
This application is for permission to
bend the law to change another house and yard
into two houses with no yard. This proposal
is simply a plan to benefit one property owner
at the expense of all others. Fleet's Neck
residents are lucky to be beneficiaries of a
hospitable natural environment developed with
well planned, constructed and maintained human
improvements. {inaudible) Fleet's Neck is
highly desirable residential neighborhood
predominantly developed before zoning as a
summer colony of Cutchogue. Streets and lots
were laid out, buildings were designed in
relation to the whole.
More recently despite zoning regulations
supposed to protect the public interest,
developments have been less desirable. As
summer cottages are being renovated, as year
round houses and new year-round houses are
being built on marginal lots the neighborhood
character is losing its sense of community.
You, the ZBA, have the responsibility to
interpret the regulations and deny or grant
variances to protect the public interest. The
decision to approve or disapprove this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
application to dramatically increase the
intensity of use and to dramatically increase
the impervious surface on this small lot in
this small neighborhood will itself have a
significant impact and also be a precedent for
developments on larger scales. Fleet's Neck
may be small, but it is, and this is not just
my opinion, one of the most beautiful places
on earth, at least it was until recent
developments have spoiled it; however, we
should not give up because it's already
compromised. We should try harder to protect
and restore the beauty.
The application for a use variance here
is frivolous, irrational and fraudulent. The
application should be summarily denied. The,
with all due respect, professional architect
who prepared this application forgot to
include a north side elevation in his plans.
Obviously the appearance from the neighbors
wasn't a priority. Even an application for an
area variance is required to prove that the
detrimental impact on the neighborhood is
relatively insignificant. An application for
a use variance requires proof of hardship.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Not only has no proof of hardship been
presented, the applicant's wishes and desires
have been substituted for any proof by the
applicant despite their clearly frivolous
nature. A big house doesn't belong on a small
lot. If you want a big house, you have to
have a big lot.
The subject lot is on the bottom of the
road. Buildable area is between a steep bluff
and a steep hill. Even with the existing
level of development, the use overflows the
lot. Frequent use of the street, currently,
frequent use of the street for parking
obstructs traffic and in the winter blocks the
snowplows. I know of four properties on
Fleet's Neck with two residential dwellings.
On East Fleet's Neck are Dunhuber, Robinson
and Williams cottages. None of them have a
main house like Malon does. None of them were
built recently.
This application is based on ignorance of
our neighborhood character
the neighbors' interests.
be allowed to be used as a
and disrespect for
The law should not
springboard.
Please don't allow the law as a springboard to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
replace open space with overdevelopment. The
application should be entirely denied. The
combination of a larger size than the maximum
allowed by law with a smaller setback than the
minimum required by law and over the top of
the maximum legal height does not suggest a
compromise. If this applicant wants to
compromise a new application should be
required.
To the north are two small triangular
lots on an outside corner. Neighbors like
Malon could be considered in legal terms to
have unclean hands and malice aforethought.
I'm not claiming their out to harm the public
interest, but they just don't recognize
anything but their own interest.
On a personal note, I learned of the
Malon development when, as I was getting into
my car one day, I noticed the surveyor's
tripod on my property. The one leg of the
tripod was on my driveway, there was nobody
around. I had to assume that they were
surveying my property. Eventually the
surveyor showed up and explained to me that he
was just going from the corner to locate where
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the Malon's property. This is not in my
backyard, it's down the street from me. The
decision you make here, I think, and the
approach that you take to this application is
going to carryover into other applications all
over the north fork.
Yesterday the same surveyor when he
showed up yesterday he asked me if I had an
elevation of my house. Well, you know, my
house was built before zoning and has nothing
to do with what current law allows. Even if
there was nobody here to speak against the
instant application, you should deny it due to
the failure of the applicant to satisfy the
burden of proof which is on the applicant. He
is supposed to be presenting to you how this
will not impact the neighbors detrimentally.
Walsh, Schiavone and Malon are not the
only examples of overdevelopment on Fleet's
Neck. A few doors down is the McGill mansion.
The Property is so narrow he asked his
neighbor to move her cottage to the center of
her lot so his new mansion wouldn't be so
squeezed. Then, at the beginning of
Fleetwood, the Lizewski mansion dwarfs and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
detracts even from the new houses which were
built nearby which are more in keeping in
scale with the neighborhood. I'm not against
all new houses. The old cottages which are
next to the Lizewski mansion now look like
they're on a different planet, planet earth,
you know, and Cutchogue, what Cutchogue is and
should be, and still is.
It's interesting to note that Walsh and
Schiavone both developed their property in
phases. The initial phases of their
development were not in keeping with the area.
Their final phases are really overwhelming our
neighborhood, but we still have a lot of
beautiful houses in our neighborhood. I
encourage you to come and take a walk because
ours is a pedestrian neighborhood and it's no
longer maybe a seasonal colony, but it's a
beautiful place to live year round and with
your help we can keep it that way. I do
believe that, not you specifically, but prior
Zoning Board of Appeals made mistakes granting
the permission they did to Schiavone and Walsh
among others. I think we can learn from
mistakes, we don't have to repeat them.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Walsh very much wanted to put in a second
house there. He was denied the right to put
plumbing. Why should Malon be allowed to have
plumbing? Schiavone, his wife was crazy for a
pool. She had young kids she wanted them to
have a pool. I don't know why they couldn't
swim in the bay and the harbor like we did as
kids, but she wanted a pool. Even Schiavone
realized his property was too small for a
pool. I realized the application for a
variance for a pool is not before you, but I
think the fact that a pool is planned should
be considered in your consideration of any
application that Malon presents.
In closing, I'd just like to say that not
only would this proposed application add to
the already significant overdevelopment of the
east side of Fleetwood Road, if this property
were developed according to the application,
it would be the most intensely developed
property on East Road and probably with the
exception of maybe the big house. Anyway, I
thank you for your time and if you have any
questions, I'm easy to find.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
MS. (INAUDIBLE): Good afternoon. I'll
be brief. Thank you for hearing me. Nancy
(inaudible) Fleetwood Road.
I'm here to oppose the five variances
the Malon proposal. This proposal is
everything the north fork should not become.
The law has to balance the benefit to Malon
against the detriment to the
Buildout of a small lot does
neighbor.
What is the applicants'
neighborhood.
not benefit any
on
hardship for two
dwellings? A McMansion as a second home on a
small lot approximately a third of an acre.
It is on the bluff of an already impacted
fragile creek front. There is a pattern
taking place on the north fork shoreline of
second homes building out their lots. Our
Town wants to protect its natural resources
now and for the future. The hardship here is
not that the applicant wants to buildout a
small lot, but a small lot on the wetland
should be protected. The character of the
neighborhood is already showing degraded
buildout for at least -- for a loss of words,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
it's gross. Any way you look at it, from the
creek, street, or your yard, huge over
buildout McMansions are not the north fork.
My family has farmed here for four
generations, that's not what we want to
protect, McMansions. We want to protect the
open space.
This lot is the lowest part of the block.
All the water runs off to this spot and
floods. I've seen the Malon drive flooded
many times. The applicant has already tried
to stop the natural flow of runoff by building
up the top of the driveway with a blacktop dam
causing huge flooding problems on Fleetwood
Road. Is this proposal going to address the
flooding of his land or is the burden going to
be put on taxpayers to have drains built? It
is a big problem in the winter. I walk my dog
twice a day on that road. It becomes an ice
skating rink and floods. The floods freeze
causing more burden for the Town to have to
sand that low spot extra than other spots in
Fleetwood Neck.
The applicant spends a lot of money to
have the neighborhood surveyed. Take in mind,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
some homes were predated zoning. We have laws
now. Let's follow them and protect the
wonderful north fork. It is not Lindenhurst.
Cutchogue is the sunniest town in New York
State. How sad it is to see huge oversized
McMansions built out on small lots and block
the light from their neighbors. Plus the view
is not in keeping with the rural living we all
want to keep on the north fork. Would you,
the Board, like to have an oversized McMansion
the only thing you see from your home and yard
this is not country living. Have you seen
what build out did to a once beautiful place
in Westhampton on Dune Road? Here is a copy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll take it for
the Board.
MS. (INAUDIBLE): Thank you.
That was taken in 2003 from the New York
Times and that used to be a beautiful ocean
front and now it's just all buildings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's Westhampton
Dunes; right, Nancy?
MS. (INAUDIBLE): Yes.
Build out on small lots
character of Southold Town.
Dune Road.
changes the whole
You, the ZBA,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
have the right to make the determination if
buildout will change the character of our
neighborhood. Please think hard and long on
the precedence allowing McMansions on small
lots has to the fragile environment of the
north fork.
Would you like to look out your window to
a huge wall of buildings? We have to respect
our environment, not destroy it. Five years
ago we wanted to build a little cottage on
Benjes (Inaudible) property and it's three
times -- it's over an acre. They were told
no. Please say no to this proposal with just
a third of an acre.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
copy of that?
MS. (INAUDIBLE):
that alright?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MS. (INAUDIBLE):
copy it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Thank you.
Thank you.
Nancy, can you submit a
It's handwritten, is
Yeah.
I'll submit it after I
That's fine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
BOARD ASST.: That's fine.
MS. (INAUDIBLE): Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to close
this hearing. You need to wrap up, sir.
MR. ALVINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name, please.
MR. HUNTINGTON: Yes. I'm Ray
Huntington, Fleet's Neck, in Cutchogue.
The Petitioners, Stanley and Christine
Malon are members of our association. The
association believes the Town Code to be a
community agreement. An agreement as to how
we should treat one another. We look to the
Town and particularly to the Zoning Board of
Appeals to do the sometimes difficult job of
adjudicating the Code and doing so without
forging weaknesses that allow unwarranted
dilution of that community agreement.
We're not here to lobby for a particular
person, but rather to ask that you understand
our perspective as an association and as a
community, as part of the Southold community.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MR. ALVINO: May I say a couple of words
and then --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just restate your
name for the record, please.
MR. ALVINO: No problem. Chris Alvino,
I'm from Harold Gebhardt's office and we're in
Lindenhurst.
There's just a couple of things. I mean
I've been doing this for 16 years, I'm a young
architect. My house is beautiful, my property
is beautiful. I think the Malon's property is
beautiful. I've seen properties on Fleetwood
Road that aren't so beautiful. If you ever
looked at this gentleman's yard you'd know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please --
MR. ALVINO: I know. I understand, but
I've heard a lot of ugliness today. Things
that weren't said in good faith, that we're
not doing something in good faith. Things
that -- gross I heard. I heard a lot of ugly
terms --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please.
MR. ALVINO: But there is no hardship
here. We're looking for a garage, we're
looking for a little pool house attached to it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
and it, inadvertently, we're going to gain
some storage space with a garage attic. We
have no problem scaling down the project.
There's no problem here doing that. When I
went to Cutchogue and I saw -- they asked me
what they'd like and what their parameters
were for the size that they needed. I --
driving down Fleetwood Road seeing things
being built and things that were built around
the area that were kinda large.
So here we are presenting an application.
We have no problem scaling it down. I would
love for the Board to tell me what they would
approve. All I ask is for a little bit of
leniency on the height. I'd like to gain a
little bit -- I'd like to not have this thing
look like a box. We are open to do whatever
you guys suggest on whatever size or setback
suggested. We are -- I don't want to take
down any of the trees. We're being cool with
the trees. We're going to use Sona tubes
around the trees instead of a continuous
footing around the trees so we don't damage
the roots. We know what we're doing in that
aspect. We're keeping away from the -- as far
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
from the street as possible and we willing to
work with the Zoning Board of Appeals in any
way possible and, of course, make the
neighbors happy and the community happy. So
that's basically all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just want
to tell you that we will be requiring you to
sound deaden the pool equipment. We will be
requiring you to put the necessary drainage in
for both the pool --
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- even though it's
not necessarily an application that's before
us.
MR. ALVINO: Not a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We will be
requiring you -- we will be putting it in the
shall statement at the end, okay, not
necessarily the must statement.
MR. ALVINO: We're here to work with you
guys. We're just looking for a garage and
pool house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and the
particular drainage that is required for the
roof gutters and leaders.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, regarding
this project and those are the suggestions.
MR. ALVINO: No problem. We're going to
get that, I guess, in writing and then we're
going to come back before the Board?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. You're going
to get it in writing and that's going to be --
that's it.
BOARD ASST.: Today is it unless you want
to reapply.
MR. ALVINO: Well, a moment ago, when I
was standing on the other side of the room,
you said we don't have to go through the
process, how does this work?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You don't have to
go through the process again, we're going to
give you a maximum of square footage that we
are going to live with based upon this
democratic that we have here.
MR. ALVINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is three
votes. Okay?
MR. ALVINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Three votes carry
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
the decision, alright?
to as alternate relief.
MR. ALVINO: Do I
before the Board again?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
with plans. Our concern
Okay.
That is what we refer
resubmit plans and come
No. We don't deal
is square footage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on. There's two
ways that this can be done.
MR. ALVINO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you seem to suggest
that we can hold this hearing open. You can
talk to your client based on everything that
you've heard from us and the audience and come
back with a different proposal.
MR. ALVINO: I think that sounds good,
but go on. I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, that would mean
an adjournment, no additional fees. You come
back and the public is invited to review the
next proposal. That's one way to handle it.
The other way to handle it is to close
this hearing now and this Board will rule upon
what you've applied for and it's already clear
that we will not accept the application as
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
applied for.
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But we have the power to
grant alternative relief, meaning this is the
maximum we will permit. Before you've
redesigned it, we will tell you what we would
permit. Secondly, we can condition that
permit with a variety of things that have been
raised by the audience that we would have done
anyway.
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But nevertheless that
includes what the Chairman was referring to,
drainage, proper drainage,
drywell --
MR. ALVINO:
sure.
gutters, leaders,
Fencing, sound deadening,
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail those kinds of
things can be taken care of and must be taken
care of. Okay, that would be conditioned. So
those are the two options, we either hold it
open and you come back with an alternative --
BOARD ASST.: Or many alternatives.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or a couple of
alternatives, yes. You could come back with
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
two or three different options.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the problem
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or we close it and vote.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the problem,
the next available calendar is October 1st, SO
if you wanted to confer with your client and
come back here within a short period of time
and tell us, I mean you could have 20 minutes,
half hour, whatever you want, okay, but we
cannot hear this again until October 1.
BOARD ASST.: It can't be expedited any
better than that if you do the other because
it's like submitting a new application. So
it's a new process. You have to get a new
amended Disapproval for your changes that you
do, if you -- suppose you have three different
plans --
MR. ALVINO:
one, but a moment
would tell us --
Well, I'll come back with
ago -- earlier you said you
be.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go back --
MR. ALVINO: -- what the maximum would
BOARD ASST.: Even if it's one.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but you still
need a new Notice of Disapproval, okay, which
will be -- that would be basically the issue
that you would be falling under the old
Disapproval at this particular time. The
variance granted would take care of a portion
of that disapproval, alright, within the
confines of that disapproval. What I'm saying
to you is that --
BOARD ASST.: Just amendments to it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, amendments to
that particular Disapproval, but what I'm
saying to you, at this particular time, is
that you cannot come back until October 1st.
We are completely saturated. Ail our time is
taken up at this time.
MR. ALVINO: Okay,
BOARD ASST.: The
Board doesn't tell you
you can come back with
The smallest is
what size to come with,
many options, whatever.
always recommended, the smallest --
MR. ALVINO: So we can get approved for a
smaller size today?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct --
not today.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
BOARD ASST.: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Within two weeks.
MR. ALVINO: I'm -- in two weeks we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me?
BOARD ASST.: I need your name for the
record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please come up here
and use this mike.
No? Okay.
MR. ALVINO: I don't know, I'm not a
stupid person, but I'm confused here.
BOARD ASST.: Let me make -- no, no, no.
Let me clarify it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is going to
take a half hour. Let's go.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we'll clarify this
very quickly. If we decide to just simply
proceed, we have, with what you proposed to
us, we have two choices. We can deny it
outright, in which case you go back to your
client and you do the whole thing over and
then you come back and you reapply.
MR. ALVINO: Okay. That's one. That's
understandable.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's one. Okay,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
that's we close it today, we can deny it. We
close it today and we can say well, we're not
going to approve what you've asked for, but
this is what we would approve. That's without
your designing anything. Then that means you
go back to your client after this vote and
that's what you're bound by. Okay, setback,
height, size and so on.
MR. ALVINO: Gotcha.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's called
alternative relief. That's one thing.
The next thing would be to leave this
hearing open until October. That would mean
that you would go and talk to your client,
redesign it yourself based upon what you
consider now to be a more enlightened
perspective on what the law requires and what
we're likely to allow.
MR. ALVINO: Yeah, I would say number
two. I'll take door number two.
MEMBER SIMON: You don't have the option
of door number two because we have the option
of either denying it outright or denying it
with alternative relief.
MR. ALVINO: Alternative relief.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: It's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We do have the option,
too, of adjourning the hearing.
MEMBER SIMON: No, but he doesn't want to
-- he doesn't want to adjourn the hearing.
BOARD ASST.: No, he wants to close the
hearing and let the Board make alternative
relief.
MR. ALVINO: That alternative relief
sounds --
BOARD ASST.:
beginning.
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
beginning.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the most
expeditious situation.
MR. ALVINO: That's what we're looking
for.
MEMBER SIMON: You get no further input
before you hear from us, that's all.
BOARD ASST.: You're done today.
MR. ALVINO: That's not a problem. I
mean I have to essentially when you give me
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Right.
That's what you said in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
that relief design according to that relief.
So I have to do something. I have to do that,
that's fine. Alternative relief is good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
BOARD ASST.: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion closing the
hearing pending the receipt of the second to
last speaker's, Nancy (Inaudible), her written
form that she's going to give us a copy of.
You're going to type it or something?
MEMBER WEISMAN: She can Xerox it.
BOARD ASST.: It was read already into
the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to do this
if I don't say that we can't accept it, you
understand?
MS. (INAUDIBLE): I can Xerox it right
here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And Benjes' also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. And we are
going to not accept anything else on this
hearing so it will be closed at that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
particular and granting alternative relief.
BOARD ASST.: Well, if I could just ask -
- there was one neighbor where improper notice
was sent, we need to give them --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's right.
BOARD ASST.: -- a chance to respond to
that cause they haven't received it. They
don't know that you're voting on it today.
MR. ALVINO: No problem. I think you
guys got the certified mail of the copy --
BOARD ASST.: They didn't receive it yet.
So we have to know that they receive it. So
we get the signed green card.
MR. ALVINO:
the green card.
BOARD ASST.:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, I have that with me,
How many days to respond?
That's right, we
need 14 days.
BOARD ASST.:
respond.
14 days to give them to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we are not going
to close this hearing, we'll close it at the
special meeting, which is on June (inaudible).
MR. ALVINO: I guess we'll receive the
alternative in the mail?
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: There is one thing I want
to make clear, is we don't have to offer
alternative relief.
MR. ALVINO: I
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that.
MEMBER SIMON:
no, no, no.
MR. ALVINO:
understand.
Yes, I was going to say
We can just simply say,
I do understand that, sir.
Thank you. I mean I would -- I like the idea
of that so we don't have to wait until
October, so that would be greatly appreciated.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, would you
like a question answered? You were concerned
about something? You need to use the mike.
[Audience member not at mike, speaking.]
Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do bear in mind that
Michael is absolutely right. There's no
assurance, we have to really mull this all
over, review all the facts before us, the
testimony, the application, the site and the
six criteria that we have to look at --
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: -- for variance relief
and there is a possibility of denial straight
out.
MR. ALVINO: Sure. I do understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In which case, then you
have the choice of going back to your client
and redesigning and resubmitting, you know, a
different proposal or there will be
alternatives.
MR. ALVINO: No problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's -- but we have to
vote. We have to --
MR. ALVINO: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have to come to
consensus on this.
MR. ALVINO: I do understand and thank
you so much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. ALVINO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So again, I offer
that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING %6279 - Kenneth Marlborough
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
15, based on the Building Inspector's October
7, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning an
application for a building permit to locate an
accessory swimming pool structure in a front
yard in part, rather than entirely in a rear
yard, at 95 Strohson Road at Little Neck Road,
Cutchogue; CTM 1000-103-10-15."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, how are you?
Mr. Ross, would you state your name for the
record, sir?
MR. ROSS: Yes. Good afternoon. Ladies
and gentlemen of the Board, my name is Dan
Ross. I'm here today representing Ken and
Carol Marlborough who reside at 95 Shrohson
Road in Cutchogue and they're seeking a
variance from 280-15 that prohibits accessory
structures, in this case, a pool in the side
yard.
The Marlborough property is on the corner
of Strohson Road and Little Neck. So because
of their corner lot they have two front yards.
They don't have two back yards, but they have
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
two front yards. The proposed pool extends
approximately 18 feet into what's defined as
the front yard. The pool is a 36 by 16 foot
pool and it will be 75 feet from the road. I
just want to note for the record that the
survey, the '99 survey that the pool was
located on shows a one-story house. It's a
two-story house and the vegetation has changed
since the survey. With respect to vegetation
there is a landscaping plan that is part and
parcel with this property that I'd like to
hand up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does it mirror any
of the concerns from the neighbor that
submitted a letter?
MR. ROSS: I hope it does, although I'll
let them speak for themselves.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just, while
you're doing that, Dan, let me just comment --
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
you received?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
think we did.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: We
Was it two letters that
Yeah, two letters, I
Yeah, you're right.
did. I saw that --
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is that the color copy, Dan? There's a color
copy available also. I'd like to find out if
the neighbors have had an opportunity to look
at that landscape plan. I would think not.
MR. MARLBOROUGH: Ken Marlborough. I've
met with neighbors over the weekend --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a minute,
okay. Just a minute. We will put the plan
down so you can review it. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you have the color
copy with you, Dan?
MR. ROSS: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
read.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ken, could you put
that down for us? Let these people just take
two minutes and take a look.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right here? Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: Anyone
look at it.
Just that it's easier to
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is professionally
done. I saw this in color on the site, the
applicant (inaudible).
MR. ROSS: I just note that the
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in the audience can
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
landscaper put some vegetation east of the
property line because I guess he couldn't help
himself. There's no intention, of course, to
put any trees on anyone else's property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's along here.
Yeah.
Let me, while they're looking at this,
let me just mention that I have seen this
plan. It happened that the applicant was at
home when I did a site inspection and I saw
the view in color and I'm familiar with --
this is a professional landscape plan that
includes a slight berm and I'm familiar with
the nature of all of these plantings and they
are expensive. They're going to be absolutely
beautiful. They will provide a great deal of
coverage from that pool from both roads and I
believe should -- this is one of the most
comprehensive landscape plans that have been
submitted to date. I believe they will
certainly more than abate any of the concerns
that neighbors justifiably have, I think,
having it open with the road. It's very
thorough.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
I agree with that,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So, Dan, go ahead,
continue.
MR. ROSS: It's not a Southampton hedge
20 feet around the property. It is open to
the southwest, which provides a view to the
water from the property, which is what the
Marlboroughs are looking forward to. The
Marlboroughs believe it provides a decent
screening under the circumstances.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How large or can
you find out for us, Mr. Ross, how large the
arborvitae will be when planted in the rear of
the pool, you know, regardless if it's side
yard, rear yard, whatever.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's 6 to 8
feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it only says
it on the most (inaudible) section. It does
not say it directly in back of the pool so
that we have some noise mitigation regarding
that.
MR. ROSS: 6 foot?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 6 foot.
MR. ROSS: Would that be okay?
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. ROSS: 6-foot high.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These will be
continuously maintained; is that correct?
MR. ROSS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: With a drip system?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other thing that's
standard is that drywell will be required for
pool water backwash.
MR. ROSS: That's on the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's on the plans, I
just want the audience to know that it's also
on there that there will be a drywell to take
care of any problem with dumping the pool
water. It won't be just surface water.
Secondly, any pump equipment that will be, you
know, pool equipment will be required to be
placed in a soundproof box to make sure that
there is no noise infiltration into the
neighborhood from any equipment. That's
something we tend to do standard conditions.
MR. ROSS: I've spoken to the
Marlboroughs about placement of equipment and
they would have no objection to the placement
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
any place to the north of the patio. Right
now it's placed next to the deep end, but if
it's your pleasure that it be in the shallow
end down there, that would be okay with them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think they need
to place it the farther, the farthest possible
place away from any neighbor. So whatever
that is.
MR. ROSS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And, of course, we
discussed sound deadening equipment.
Where are we?
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else have
any questions?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I just have a comment.
It's a good location for the pool, the only
location and when you move the equipment,
you'll have to also move the backwash drywell
and I think you have plenty of locations for
that. Hopefully, those septic systems won't
get in the way, but other than that along with
the screening that was the neighbor's concern
and the community's concerns, everything looks
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
good.
MR. ROSS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Sir, use either mike; I don't care, just
state your name for the record.
MR. TRENTACOSTE: My name is Bob
Trentacoste. I live across the street from
the Marlboroughs and on the outset I have no
objection to the pool whatsoever. I think
they should have a pool and their layout is
beautiful. My problem is that the pool plus
the patio extend the fence out 25 feet past
the house. The plantings that are proposed
for the perimeter, as far as I could see,
don't cover up that fence from the Strohson
Road area. The plantings he's proposing
around the pool are inside the fence not
outside. What I'm looking at from Strohson
Road across the street from me is the fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is how
high is that fence?
MR. TRENTACOSTE: I have no idea.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, if it's for
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pool purposes by state law it's gotta be a
minimum of four feet.
MR. TRENTACOSTE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does four feet
bother you?
MR. TRENTACOSTE: For 25 feet? I would
rather not see it. I would like the plantings
to be on the outside of the fence rather than
look at a white plastic fence, number one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can
make sure of this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
sure where --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can
you -- let's just
Yeah, let's make
you see at that
point or do you want to approach?
MR. TRENTECOSTE: I'm on Strohson.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why don't you come up
and (inaudible)? I just want to make sure we
understand what your -- what area you're -- is
this around here? You're over on this side?
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
this?
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'm right here.
And you're worried about
Cause they're planting
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
around here, you just said.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, can you face this way
so that I can hear the answers to the
questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. These are not
shrubs.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: Yes they are.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. If you look at
the plan you'll see there's many deciduous
trees, very tall trees. There's a number of
arborvitaes which are very tall and evergreen.
There's some in here, too, but in any case --
no not along here.
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me, what's your
name?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we do this
over here?
BOARD ASST.: Thank you. We're not
catching your answers.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you just come
over here and do it?
BOARD ASST.: So you're not going to be
on the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the plan, we have the plan
We need you to use
(inaudible). Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Mr. Ross, do you want
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
at 25 feet of fence.
to see this?
From here I'm looking
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on one second.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the fence will be
over here. Okay.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: It extends out 25 feet
past this residence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but we're talking
about the fence on the pool that goes this
far. Okay.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, and then it
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returns and goes back that way.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: That's right and all of
this planting all looks lovely, doesn't do a
thing for me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well what this will do,
this is a dwarf mugho pine that will be about
four foot high and gold mop cypress --
MR. TRENTECOSTE: Excuse me, dwarf mugho
pine is about a foot and a half.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But it grows about that
high.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: No, that's why it's a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
dwarf.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
any case these are --
Well, I'm sorry, but in
alright, well these are
not high plants. You're absolutely right, but
they will cover a 4-foot fence by and large.
This is next to the fence and this is a
laurel, a mountain laurel. Okay, Japanese
cut-leaf maple. You know what, this type of
grass grows very high, maiden grass. I think
what we could possibly do is just ensure that
we condition this fence with plantings that
will obscure the fence.
MS. TRENTECOSTE: What we really want is
the perimeter planted. I don't care what he
does inside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Here?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Can I ask you a
question? Can I interrupt? Where is your
view from?
MS. TRENTECOSTE: Well, it's where you
come in down Little Neck and you come up
Strohson --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Where is your house?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: So what is your view
now?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Do you see their house,
their house.
their house.
all.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
fence?
MR.
fence?
MR.
TRENTECOSTE: What fence, the back
WELCOME:
my fence.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
fence?
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
this way or from here?
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
And you see their
My house (inaudible) that's
Well, you see a fence.
No, I don't see it at
You don't see that
Not at all.
So what's your view,
I'm not talking about
the view from my house, I'm talking about an
overview of this property.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
MS. TRENTECOSTE:
the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Oh.
An overview coming into
From the street you
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do you see their backyard?
MR. TRENTECOSTE: We see
MEMBER WEISMAN: You see
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
mean?
MR. TRENTECOSTE: From the street.
MR. ROSS: From both streets.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: From this area here.
MR. ROSS: The Marlboroughs expect --
this is where people are going to sit and this
is the view, their water view and the water is
this way and (inaudible) and they want to keep
this low so they're not going to put a 6-foot
fence in or they can't see the water. That's
-- they don't want to put a Southampton hedge
in that's going to make the road seem like a
city street.
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
that.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
I would agree with
Why is the pool fence
on the outside of the shrubbery instead of on
the inside?
MR. ROSS: I see the shrubbery on the
outside and the inside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, there's some in
here and there's some here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go back to
the color of the fence, is it a black fence?
MR. ROSS: Don't know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't know what the
fence is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because we -- there
was an assumption made it was a white vinyl
fence.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: Well, the letter I saw
was that it wouldn't be a typical (inaudible)
fence, but would be a plastic stake fence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, one of those picket,
probably picket-type --
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Something so that
children cannot clirab over it for their little
feet.
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TRENTECOSTE:
Yeah, I guess so, sure.
Well, that's the part --
My comments weren't
what it looks like, my comments were the
overall picture of people driving up my road
that I live on --
MS. TRENTECOSTE: It's just not in
character at all.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: -- and looking at a
fence.
MS. TRENTECOSTE: It's going to be wide
open and all the towels will be hung over the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
fence.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: We just think it's
wrong.
BOARD ASST.: We have it in the record.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Okay.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: The kid's will be
yelling and splashing the water (inaudible)
fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. TRENTECOSTE: And I didn't care
because it's not my house.
MR. WELCOME: What does the law say about
how close this pool can be in comparison to
the house from Little Neck Road? What does
the law --
BOARD ASST.: What is your name, sir?
MR. WELCOME: Harry Welcome, I'm the next
door neighbor of the --
BOARD ASST.: Spell your last name,
please? W-E?
MR. WELCOME: W-E-L-C-O-M-E.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think it's three
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's a flat
accessory structure as opposed to like a
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building.
MR. WELCOME: Well, why are we even
talking about this, it's 187
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's 18 feet.
MR. WELCOME: Why are we even talking
about this if the law clearly states 3 feet
maximum, why are we even talking about a pool
that's 18 past the house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not in the
rear yard.
MR. WELCOME: Pardon me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not in the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, I thought you were
talking about the septic, like how far --
MR. WELCOME: No. This is Little Neck
Road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. WELCOME: This is the edge of their
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. WELCOME: What does the law say about
how far beyond the house the pool can be in
relation to the road?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't.
MR. WELCOME: Zero.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't and that's
why they're here.
MR. WELCOME: They need a variance to go
18 feet out from this line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Here's the house. Okay.
MR. WELCOME: Because there's no room for
the pool in the rear property --
MEMBER WEISMAN: If everything could have
been back here, not coming -- here's where --
MR. WELCOME: If the law clearly states
zero. Why, I mean --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
could put it, right
can't fit it in.
-- the law says they
in this area. You just
BOARD ASST.: It's up to the Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why they're
asking for a variance.
MR. WELCOME: (Inaudible) steal. If the
law says no stealing of money, how much can I
MEMBER SIMON: I don't understand what
exactly is zero?
answer to?
MR. WELCOME:
What question is zero the
The distance from the edge
of this house to the road, how far beyond that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
wall is
MEMBER WEISMAN:
why --
MEMBER SIMON:
the pool allowed to extend?
It doesn't say,
that's
It says zero, it doesn't
say the number of -- it doesn't say anything,
that's what we're saying.
BOARD ASST.: It says it has to be in the
rear yard and the rear yard is here.
MEMBER SIMON: It doesn't say zero
distance, it doesn't specify what the distance
is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The reason they're
before us is because they can't fit this over
here. Okay, so a portion of this pool is in
the front yard, two front yards to be exact.
Okay, that's why they're here for variance
relief. Otherwise they wouldn't need it.
MS. TRENTECOSTE: The point is it's
really going to detract from the area, if the
perimeter is not --
BOARD ASST.: Repeat that, Ms.
Trentecoste is speaking.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. Wait a second,
you're concerned about being able to see the
pool from the road.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MS. TRENTECOSTE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. What she's saying
is if the pool were right here, they wouldn't
even be
see the pool.
MS. TRENTECOSTE:
the house.
MEMBER SIMON:
you're on Strohson.
here and you would still be able to
Not if it was behind
Right -- oh, I see because
Just driving by.
Driving -- passersby.
MEMBER SIMON: Not from your house?
That's the -- (inaudible) because you said if
the pool were back here you wouldn't be here,
in fact, they wouldn't be here either. Okay,
so what you're concern is that by granting
them the variance to have the pool this far
over, you can see it from here?
MS. TRENTECOSTE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: And from your house and
your concern is not what you can see from
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the
pool from here?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MS. TRENTECOSTE:
MS. TRENTECOSTE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but if you -- okay.
So you're concerned about being able to see
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
there because you couldn't see it from there
or whether it's here or whether it's there?
MR. TRENTECOSTE: Sure. Sure it's a
concern.
MS.
TRENTECOSTE:
character of --
MEMBER SIMON:
legal concern.
MS. TRENTECOSTE:
know (inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON: No,
this. Is that it might
It's the general
But what I mean it's not a
-- the area. I don't
what I am saying is
very well affect the
area for anyone to have a swimming pool at all
where they didn't require a variance because
you could see it and so you could screen it
next to the pool, but you cannot screen it
next -- you can't require them to screen it
from the road.
BOARD ASST.: I'm not --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you all just go back
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
use the --
Yeah, you need to
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you just go to the
mike and state your name for the record?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MR. WELCOME: My name is
I'm the neighbor to the north.
if I understood the answer to
Larry Welcome.
I'm not sure
the question
that I asked. Did you say that there is no
number of how close a road -- how far beyond
the house a pool could be in relation to the
road or did you say that the number is zero?
MEMBER SIMON: No. No, I didn't say the
number is zero. I'm saying is there isn't
something in the Code that says how far or how
close or how far the pool is from the house,
never mind the road.
you were --
MR. WELCOME: No,
That's what I thought
I'm talking about the
relation of the pool to the road and the
house. In most townships on Long Island a
pool cannot be any closer to the road than the
leading edge of the house.
BOARD ASST.:
Southold.
MR. WELCOME:
We don't have that law in
There is no stipulation
that pool could be up against the road? That
pool could be up against the road?
BOARD ASST.: It doesn't have to be --
no.
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MEMBER SIMON:
right. If a pool
there wouldn't be
If you have a -- you're
is in the back yard then
a variance because then it
would be in the
allowed.
MR. WELCOME:
MEMBER SIMON:
edge of the house
road (sic)
Right.
Then that
that limits
in which it's
limits, it's the
how close the
The back yard of
So actually there
something in the books saying that a pool
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the house.
MR. WELCOME: Right.
is
pool can be to the road.
MR. WELCOME: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: And so you're absolutely
right. By getting a variance at all, even one
foot into the side yard, then it exceeds that
principle.
MR. WELCOME: So in other words, a
variance means that there is something written
that needs to be varied.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Namely the fact that
the pool -- they're asking for permission in a
corner house not to squeeze the entire pool
into the back yard, which is very tiny.
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cannot be
the house. It should --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
use the mike, I'm sorry.
MR. WELCOME: My concern
people have on their property.
I've never stated one objection
the Marlboroughs have ever done.
closer to the road than the side of
Ma'am, you need to
is not for what
I don't --
to anything
They've got
the CCA playhouse that's falling apart that's
been there forever. I haven't said a word.
They've got piles of brush and crap that
they've -- excuse me -- that they leave for
months and months on end until the Town picks
it up. I never said a word. They've got
fluorescent colored kayaks and plastic toys
all over their yard, I've never said a word to
anybody including them. I'm not a complainer
of what people have in their yards. It's
their yard, fine, if it's legal.
If this isn't legal, I don't want the law
changed so that they can have more stuff of
theirs for me to look at. Alright?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
little bit, please?
The law requires
May I clarify that a
pools to be in
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backyards, unless it's a waterfront property.
The only reason that they are before us is
because if they are to have a swimming pool
they have the burden of two front yards and a
very tiny rear yard. They're on a corner lot.
MR. WELCOME: Do they know that?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, that's why they're
here.
MR. WELCOME: Did they know that when
they bought the house?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just finish, I'm
really attempting to clarify the Code that's
all without prejudice, without opinion. The
bottom line is that in order for them to put
in a swimming pool they must come before this
Board for relief from the Code. The Code does
not tell us when someone's going to put it in
a side yard how much in the side yard they are
permitted. It just -- it leaves us the
discretion to determine how far in that side
yard is reasonable and what kind of mitigating
circumstances, like screening, are required in
order to protect the privacy and character of
the neighborhood. Alright.
I think that they've gone into a great
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deal of effort, it looks to me, to provide a
professionally done landscape plan that will
be an amenity, okay. Now if your concern is
being able to see a four-foot high fence, that
can also be taken care of by this Board that
will require plantings that will obscure the
fence or perhaps a solid fence so that you
don't see the pool at all and they can put
whatever they want on the other side in the
way of landscape or not. That can be a part
of this condition, but the law doesn't say how
far in the side yard they're allowed because
they're not allowed in the side yard at all.
So the point, yeah, but there is a reason
that the Zoning Board exists. We are the
Board of Appeals. Every citizen has the right
to appeal to us for relief from the Code
because of the unique circumstances they face.
Everyone of us has different shaped backyards
and weird shaped lots sometimes and things
that predate zoning and situations where we
have two front yards and can't comply, you
know, because you don't have a backyard in
some cases and so that's why this Board is
here. It is not the Board of No, but on the
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other hand we can say no if something is
unreasonable, but it is a property owner's
right to appeal to us for relief from the
required rear yard. That's all we're looking
at here.
MR. WELCOME: Okay. Well, this is not a
weird shaped piece of property. It's
basically square, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. WELCOME: When they bought the house
and rebuilt it, it was exactly where it is
now. Okay, they knew going in where their
backyard was. The law says that the pool must
be in the backyard. I could understand if no
neighbors objected to put it in, but every
neighbor as far as I know is objecting based
on where the pool is being placed and I feel
on that basis alone they should be denied.
I'm sorry I don't have written notes that I
could make a copy for you and I'm wondering
was there an environmental study done on a
drywell. Our watertable is only 17 feet. I'm
right next door and it's only 17 feet. Would
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't do
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environmental studies on drywells.
MR. WELCOME: Well, whoever came up with
the idea of a drywell to put 20,000 gallons of
chlorinated water into --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not the 20,000
gallons, sir, it's to backwash the filter.
That's the only --
MEMBER SIMON: It's not for emptying the
pool.
MR. WELCOME: Yeah, that's what I'm
talking about, for emptying the pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. It is not for
emptying your pool.
MEMBER SIMON: You're not allowed to
empty your pool.
MR. WELCOME: Where would they empty it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is for
backwashing the pool filter.
MEMBER SIMON: The tank.
MR. WELCOME: Where would it be emptied,
I mean, if they had to do it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me? What
would they do? I assume they would get one of
the tanker trucks in, the same tanker truck
that came to put the pool water in.
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MR. WELCOME: Okay, well that's one thing
that's just a minor concern. My concern is if
the law clearly states that it must be in the
backyard, without objection from neighbors I
could see a variance in a --
MEMBER SIMON: Let me have a try. Is by
what you're saying is, and if you're right,
then anyone who bought a corner lot would
probably be agreeing never to put a pool on
their property at all.
MR. WELCOME: They know going in where
they --
MEMBER SIMON: Wait, wait, wait. I'm
saying that's what you think, but that isn't
necessarily true. I mean, for example, a
garage is also supposed to be in the back
yard. Yet, if somebody doesn't have a garage
in their backyard and they want to build one,
what's to stop someone from making your
argument that says you can't have a garage in
your -- when you bought the property you
shouldn't have bought one that was on a corner
lot because you couldn't have a garage.
MR. WELCOME: Yeah, solid argument.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but this is a kind
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of a no-brainer variance given the fact that
the Code was not written specifically with
corner lots in mind when it came to structures
which are ordinarily in the backyard. The
same thing is true in waterfront properties
because waterfront properties have two front
yards because one of them is on the water and
the other one is on the road. So adjustments
have to be made. The Building Department
doesn't do that, they turn it over to us.
These are kind of the no-brainers, in general,
unless there is some excessive problem in
which case which is why we have a hearing, but
to have someone come in and say not one inch
because it's against the law and we have a
right to stop it is a novel view that we're
not used to, but we'll consider it.
MR. WELCOME: Well, most laws are pretty
specific. You know, I know if I break a law I
pay for it. There's really no appeal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to move
this along.
MR. WELCOME: But, I'm just -- that's my
only objection is that it's 18 feet past the
house. The law says it's not supposed to be.
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Everybody is objecting to it based on that
alone. The extent is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have two things
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's duly
noted.
MR. WELCOME: The aesthetics are -- I
don't think there's anything in the law about
aesthetics.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have two letters here
and neither letter says that they object to
the pool. They object to it being visible.
BOARD ASST.: We need your name, please,
before you speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: First of all, we
need your name.
BOARD ASST.:
MS. CANCRO:
Strohson Road.
At the mike.
Anna Cancro, (inaudible)
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you spell the
last name, dear?
MS. CANCRO: C-A-N-C-R-O.
The law is here. You people are supposed
to help us along with the law, but the basic
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thing is a person with that size in that spot
should not have a pool there. I'm telling you
that that pool will be a detriment to the
neighborhood, bring down our values because
the person does not have a good track record
of keeping the property screened or anything.
He completely denuded it when he bought it.
He has kids' stuff all over the lawn and I
have no faith that what we see we are ever
going to get. Okay?
I do not -- he does not have an
underground sprinkler system. I don't know
how they're going to keep this stuff alive.
He planted three or four bushes, they died.
It's not somebody who has had a -- what's the
word? He says one thing, but it doesn't
happen and I have no faith that what you see
is what we're ever going to get and once it's
in, then who's going to really enforce it?
Who's going to say these bushes aren't growing
or they died or you have to replant them?
When will that happen? That's our concern
here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can put a
condition in the decision.
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MS. CANCRO: Okay, I'm just telling you
that there's a reason for that law. It's a
good law. There should not be a pool in the
front of the house. Okay, that's it and I
vote against it as a neighbor who lives two
doors down.
MEMBER SIMON: The --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just -- could
we hear the next person before --
MEMBER SIMON: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am? Could you
just state your name for the record, too,
ma'am?
MS. MACLEOD: I'm Mary MacLeod. I'm one
of the people who wrote a letter and I am -- I
do not object to a pool per se and if you're
willing to consider a variance then I want to
make it clear as an architect and as a
professor of architecture that I do not think
that landscape plan succeeds in screening the
pool or the fence and I also object to the
large scale of the patio extruding in that
plan that doesn't show up on the smaller site
plan and I'll be more specific.
One, I think all of us want to assure
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that planting occurs before
plan because we
that. Two, the
moment there is
any C of O of the
again are very concerned about
Strohson Road view, at the
no high bushes blocking the
view. When I talked to Mr. Marlborough, who
couldn't have been more gracious, he did say I
can plant more things. I think I would really
want a guarantee of that. Also, the equipment
house that shows up on one site plan doesn't
show up on the other site plan. We have no
idea where it's located.
I want to also stress I have a particular
problem that makes me nervous about this whole
plan. Not only did the site plan that the
landscape architect do show extensive planting
on my property, which is adjacent on Strohson
Road, but when I went over to inspect it, of
course, there is no longer an evergreen hedge
shielding the two properties. I discovered
that Mr. Marlborough had cleared, and it
really never bothered me too much, about an 8-
foot swath of land on my property next to his
driveway. Certainly I had already told him
when a tornado blew a dead branch onto his car
that if he had nervousness about any trees I
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would be fine if he
horrible, but right
moved the garage --
took it down. I felt
now the property -- he
you should know the
driveway is extended one foot over beyond what
exists on the site plan. My property line is
literally at the edge of his driveway and I am
concerned also, although I have no direct view
of the pool, I'm concerned about noise and
sound as well, but because of my nervousness I
can't figure out what landscape architect in
his right mind would do planting on somebody
else's property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, counsel
said that should not have been there.
MS. MACLEOD: That's after I pointed it
out to him.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. MACLEOD: He was going to present --
I mean, when I -- there was no mention when I
talked to Ken that that was a mistake. I also
found a tree planted on my property that they
had planted along with extensive irises. It's
fine, that was just brush and I don't really
mind, but it's an attitude of not screening
but clearing that concerns me, but I just want
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to make it very clear that the Strohson
roadside is not shielded and I also want to
speak for one of my other neighbors who wrote.
She's very clear that she would prefer
shielding on the road, not inside the fence
around the pool, and I think we all feel the
landscaping plan is insufficient.
I think this is a different problem than
the Welcomes where the pool is literally in
their backyard. They can look down on it.
They're worried about noise, they're worried
about lots of things because it's hugging the
property line. My objections are from
Strohson Road and as a neighbor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want the
driveway screened from your property?
MS. MACLEOD: I surely would like the
driveway screened and right now because
there's almost no place because he extended
the driveway by only a foot that already was
bad enough having a --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I'm talking
about screening on your property.
MS. MACLEOD: I would like it
yes .
screened,
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MACLEOD: But by an evergreen hedge,
not by landscape architect.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MACLEOD: And'I would also mention I
don't like this reference to Southampton
hedges. The whole road is hedged. This is --
and it was hedged before he moved in.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Okay, counsel, can we just discuss a
couple of things with you?
Thank you, Mr. Ross.
MS. MACLEOD: I (inaudible) that the --
{inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You made the offer
of placing the equipment in any location.
Does the Board have a preference to the
location? I asked that it be as far away from
the --
MR. ROSS: Any location between the pool
and the fence there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. ROSS: We don't want to put it in the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, can it go in
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the southwest corner?
MR. ROSS: Southwest
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
housed.
-- rather --
It's going to be
MR. ROSS: What if -- why not the
northwest next to the garage? I understood
that the Welcome house is closer to Little
Neck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where is the
preference, does anyone have a preference?
Give me one second. I'm just talking to
the Board, I'll be right back to you.
The Welcomes were noticed and they are
not here. Okay, that's right, so that's why
we're moving it to a location other than that
location and counsel reflects next to the
garage. How far, counsel?
MR. ROSS: Right in the corner there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to show
us where that location is?
No, that's too close to his property.
Can we come down here?
MR. ROSS: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, if it's in the
soundproof box I don't think it would be a big
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deal and you can camouflage it with a few low
shrubs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I was
thinking you got existing cesspools here. I
thought you could maybe put a drywell here
with a pumpout in here.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
shifted 90 degrees.
Yeah, that'll work.
What if the pool were
MS. MACLEOD: We all would like it
shifted 90 degrees.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The cesspools are
in the way.
MS. MACLEOD: (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, you can't
speak without raising your hand, I'm sorry.
MS. MACLEOD: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think this is the
best location if you can do it here. Maybe
take the fence and go over with it a little
bit or whatever. The garage entrance is this
way, is it a double entrance to the garage?
Yeah, I mean you could squeeze it in here
anyway, couldn't you? Yeah, okay.
Alright, we'll be right with you. So
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we're going to mark this up in what we
referred to as, I'm going to call this the
southwest corner.
UNIDENTIFIED: Southwest of the garage?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Southwest corner
just past the garage, okay, and then the --
BOARD ASST.: South of the garage, you
mean?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. And then I'm
going to indicate an area for the pump out
area which is definitely between the, you
know, it's pretty far away from the cesspools,
but I mean right in that general vicinity
there.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it can be pretty
close to the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, right
adjacent to the garage. I mean, it's going to
be in a soundproof thing anyway. Alright?
Alright, question, ma'am?
MS. MACLEOD: (inaudible) sounds like the
equipment (inaudible) would be in my view
inaudible) I don't see why it can't be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because, and this
is not a sarcastic statement, we cannot make
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everybody happy.
MS. MACLEOD: No, no. I understand that,
I just think it could be within between the
garage and the area --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Counsel just
indicated to me that that was a bad area
because that's an area for an entertainment
area.
MS. MACLEOD: They have a huge patio
proposed for entertainment extruding in that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, we will
request that to be screened. Okay?
MS. MACLEOD: If I have an evergreen
hedge in that area, I will not have an
objection.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want that hedge
planted on your property?
MS. MACLEOD: As close to the property
edge as possible (inaudible) on the property
line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah cause the problem
is, you know, he's got the driveway there and
it looks like whatever hedge was there that is
no longer there was, according to this survey,
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was partly on your property and partly on his
property at one point. It's no longer there
at all.
MS. MACLEOD: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So if we are to
condition this with a row of evergreen, you
know, it could be pine, it could be Leland
Cypress, it could be arborvitae as long as
it's 6 feet high and can grow in the sun.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Counsel, do you
have any problem with that along the driveway?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we fit it in?
MR. ROSS: The whole border or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it would probably be
from the garage to the house.
MR. ROSS: The house to the garage?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you know, in that
segment from the garage,
MS. MACLEOD: Yeah,
sure that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
mike.
the part you'd see.
I'd just like to make
You need to use the
MS. MACLEOD:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
use the mike, I apologize.
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Ma'am, you need to
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MS. MACLEOD: This, of course, only
affects me. I think my neighbors have other
objections, but as far as I'm concerned, I
would like to see a plan of the planting or
have it consulted with me. It was a bit
disturbing, I don't think it was intentional.
I thought their spirits were good, but not
only to see a plan done on my property, but
also to find out that the land had been
cleared and there were plantings that I didn't
know about. So I would just like to --
before, I would like that specified, but I
would also like to see what they're specifying
since it's my property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. ROSS: I'm sure
speak with Ms. MacLeod.
Can you do that?
the Marlboroughs will
I have a problem with
the Board making a requirement that the
Marlboroughs plant plants on someone else's
property. I just think it's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well --
MR. ROSS: I'm sure they could talk about
it and get it done --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you know I
have to say that it's been done before, Mr.
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Ross, and I know it's not --
MR. ROSS: Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- it's kind of
unique, okay, but as you know some of the
things we've done in the past have been unique
and this is just a -- adds to that uniqueness.
MR. ROSS: You could see that he was
anticipating doing it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean it's on the
plan.
MR. ROSS: You would just argue about the
type of plant, now, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Jerry.
They want to have
Occasionally we
have gone so far as to mandate planting on a
neighbor's property in the past. Do you think
that is a reason why we should do that again?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. ROSS: Alright, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean as far as
the -- this is a very close area right here,
we're trying to accommodate everybody's
concern.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'd like to suggest that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
perhaps we leave this hearing open that Ms.
MacLeod, Mr. Ross and the Marlboroughs examine
some of these issues about the nature of the
screening, that we request that the screening
along the other street, not Strohson, what's
the other one?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Little Neck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Little Neck, that
incorporate along the outer perimeter
evergreens rather than deciduous trees and
those trees, they can put those on the inside
if they want.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What about Strohson?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm just going to get to
that. That they ensure that whatever
plantings are proposed around the fence that
the fence be opaque so the pool isn't shown
and that the evergreen plantings obscure the
fence, which will therefore obscure the pool.
I certainly understand and I believe
(inaudible) also suggested that diagonal view
out to the bay is an amenity for the homeowner
that nobody would really want to have a 6-, 7-
8-foot high fence or screen, but as long as
you don't see the pool from the road or any
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
other place because it's screened, that should
mitigate the concerns. We'll make sure the
equipment is not loud and is not heard by
anybody, that the issues of drainage are taken
care of. We have a proposal for, I believe,
the other neighbors' property, for 6-foot high
evergreens. If you want hedgerow rather than
evergreen cause it's flatter and less
intrusive, that's easy.
What else can we do? Can we maybe --
MEMBER SIMON: I --
MR. ROSS: The problem with that is, you
know, they want to have the pool in for the
summer. I think the Board's concerns are
clear, put it in the decision.
MEMBER SIMON: Wait. Would it be
helpful, more efficient if perhaps all three
of the neighbors that are concerned would get
together as soon as possible so that whatever
comes up, if this hearing has to be adjourned,
is at least there's agreement among the
neighbors and the Marlboroughs, we hope.
MR. ROSS: I would rather -- I would
rather not adjourn it. I would rather, the
Board has heard the neighbors, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
Marlboroughs have met with the neighbors, make
the decision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, ma'am? Could
you just let me finish this last statement to
counsel, please? What, in effect, could
happen here is this, regardless of whatever
meeting occurs, you've produced a very nice
plan. My wonderful colleague, Ms. Weisman,
came up with a proposal. We just want the
plan redone to discuss the type of plantings
that have to be done and the addition of the
hedge for this nice lady's driveway.
MR. ROSS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can submit
that, okay, by the 14th of June. Okay, we need
it before the 14tn of June.
BOARD ASST.: The Friday before, the 9th
or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a good idea. We
can -- as long as it's something to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can deal with it
as a first deliberation at that meeting okay
and everything is incorporated, everything is
done and the words "continuously maintained"
are going to be in there. Okay and that takes
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
care of the problem.
This young lady was first. Please.
MS. MACLEOD: I just want to say I think
that that omitted possibly the concern not
only very strongly about (inaudible) the other
letter and I think some of the other neighbors
on Strohson Road as well as myself, if the
plantings on Strohson Road right now and Ken
sounded very amenable to extending them a
little bit and adding them, but right now
there's not sufficient planting on Strohson
Road to hide this rather large
patio/entertainment area that would not hide
the diagonal view. So I would ask that we
also ask for more extensive planting on
Strohson Road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's what
you need to do at this meeting. You need to
do that so that he
document for us.
MS. MACLEOD:
that we have not
group meeting,
can produce a better
I just wanted to clarify
all met. We invited Ken to a
he couldn't come. (Inaudible)
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you, if you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
can't meet with Mr. Marlborough, he has an
attorney with an office in Mattituck.
MS. MACLEOD: We've been calling him, he
knows.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I mean, you
can meet with them, can't you?
MR. MACLEOD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean ~'m not
setting you up, I'm just mentioning --
MR. ROSS: Mr. Marlborough's the Athletic
Director for Shoreham/Wading River whose
budget just went down so he's been --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
Ma'am, you had a final question?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me --
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me one
second. Just let me get this question.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Is there a timeframe
for these plantings? Again, it's been said
that the track record of these owners is very
poor. We are looking at every one of these
plantings planted by Mr. Marlborough at his
convenience. This could be another ten years
of plantings.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. He's getting
no CO until it's planted. There's no CO and
it has to be continuously maintained, which
means there has to be a drip system for each
one of these plantings, okay, until they
become mature evergreens, mature deciduous
trees, mature whatever, and this is not a
sarcastic statement, mature whatever they are.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. No, what I'm
saying is that this entire project that you're
seeing could take 10 years because he's going
to do it. He's not going to
landscaper and pay thousands
have these planted.
call in a
of dollars to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But then it's going
to take 10 years to build the swimming pool.
He can't use the swimming pool until he gets
the C of O.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay, gotcha.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we will clearly
state that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I might also suggest
that this Board has heard public testimony
from all parties concerned and we have the
hearing transcript. I believe that it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
possible even without continuous meetings with
each other -- you've told us what your
concerns are and counsel understands them and
they're going to have to redo a landscape plan
that reflects what we've talked about and
submit it to this Board.
We can close the hearing now subject to
receipt and then rule on this decision based
upon the submission of an altered landscape
plan with a changed location for the pump
equipment and drywell that will address your
concerns from both roads and from adjoining
properties. Okay, and if we don't see
something we think should be there, we will
write it into the decision that it should be,
that it must be.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Question, ma'am?
Last question. We need your name.
BOARD ASST.: We need your name.
MS. CANCRO: C-A-N-C-R-O.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
MS. CANCRO: These plantings do not dry
or they die (inaudible), who do we complain
to? You people or -- if this doesn't happen
and the pool is there --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Code Enforcement.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Code Enforcement.
BOARD ASST.: Code Enforcement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Code Enforcement,
they have to be replanted.
MS. CANCRO: Code Enforcement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: The
"continuously maintained",
Yes.
decision will say
which means if one
little plant dies, forget about it, if there's
something that dies there that creates a big
gap so that suddenly there's visibility where
there's not supposed to be their obligation is
to replace it. If they do not, you can
complain to Code Enforcement. They will look
up this decision, they will see that it is
required by our finding that this be
maintained and that they are -- and they will
be fined if they do not replace it.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: {Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail of us.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: {Inaudible) for years.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think he's trying
to rectify that now, we would hope that that's
the case.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
beautiful corner and it's
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
go down when that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
AUDIENCE MEMBER: --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
That used to be a
not now and I
This appears to be
Ail our property values
Right.
(inaudible).
Okay, we thank you.
Alright, Mr. Ross, thank you. Thank you
everybody. And I offer that resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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175
ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING %6278 - Vincent and
Laura Manetti
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Requests for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-122, based on the Building
Inspector's November 19, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed additions and
alterations to the existing single-family
dwelling. The reasons stated for disapproving
the building permit application are that the
new construction will constitute an increase
in the degree of nonconformance on a single
side yard, on total (both) side yard setbacks,
and at less than 75 feet from the bulkhead, at
150 West Shore Drive, Southold; CTM 1000-80-5-
5.1 adjacent to Southold Bay."
Why don't I let you go ahead? I did find
a couple -- I have a question here about the -
- some small inconsistencies in the Notice of
Disapproval and the application in terms of
setbacks, but let's get to what it is you want
to -- it's been a long morning right into the
afternoon.
MR. HERMAN: Robert Herman from En
Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road, Southampton,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
New York on behalf of the applicants, Laura
and Vincent Manetti.
We can -- I've reviewed the Notice,
Leslie, and I'm not sure where there's an
inconsistency, but let me try to go over what
we're doing and then we can decide if there
is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
MR. HERMAN: First of all, we are not
proposing to do anything outside -- I should
say we're not proposing to do anything that
requires relief from this Board that is
outside this existing developed footprint of
the property. Occurring nearest -- I'll try
to deal with each of the two variances
separately. With respect to the relief
required from the bulkhead, what is occurring
nearest to the bulkhead, which is the 47.8
feet shown on the site plan, and I think
that's the number that it gives, 47 feet at
the bottom of the Notice of Disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it does plus or
minus.
MR. HERMAN: That is the in-place
replacement of that existing wood deck, which,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
from what I've been able to cull from the
records, was permitted in the early 90s and
has a C of O. With respect to the most
seaward portions of that deck and that would
be the portion requiring the greatest relief
from the Board, we are maintaining exactly
what is there. There is also an existing
sunroom that is centered on the back of the
house that is coming down and being
constructed just to its west is a one and a
half story addition so that the easterly or
southerly, southeasterly portion of the
existing sunroom will be replaced by this one
and a half story addition and then the most
westerly or northwesterly portion of the deck
will also be replaced.
In other words, the new addition that's
on the water side will occur within the
footprint either of the existing deck or the
existing sunroom. Then to the east there is a
proposed covered porch, which again will occur
within either the footprint of the existing
deck or within the footprint of the existing
sunroom that is being demolished. So the
bottom line is all of those improvements are
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
occurring within the same structural footprint
that is there.
I think maybe what you are looking at is
the fact that the Notice of Disapproval notes
a single side yard setback of 9.7 feet. Now
that 9.7 feet is to the corner of the existing
house. Now, the -- there is a mirror setback
of 9.2 because of the way the house angles
toward the property line from the proposed one
and a half story addition, but what I seem to
have figured out from the way the Disapproval
was written there is also about an 8.8 foot
setback to the corner of the existing deck and
that number seems to be reflected in the
Notice of Disapproval because the Notice of
Disapproval describes a total side yard relief
for 20.1 feet. If you take 8.8 and add it to
the 11.3, which is the other side yard on the
south or east side of the property, it adds up
to 20.1.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you approach and
show me where it is?
MR. HERMAN: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause that's where
I was
I was looking on the survey and I just
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
179
didn't see it. Are you talking about this
wedgy bit here?
MR. HERMAN: This corner right here, even
though it isn't shown, is 8.8, which is what I
mentioned.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This --
MR. HERMAN: From that corner to the side
yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: From here to here?
MR. HERMAN: Correct. So if you take
11.3 and add 8.8 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause it wasn't calling
it out.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: It's not parallel.
MR. HERMAN: In the side yard, so that
8.8 which isn't shown and this 11.3 is your
20.1, which is mentioned in the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So 11.3 down here.
MR. HERMAN: So that's your total.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine. So now I got it
cause it wasn't called out and I just wanted
to make -- cause I can't stand it when there's
inconsistencies --
MR. HERMAN: Well, I --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause we don't know how
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
to write it.
MR. HERMAN: Well, I think what may have
happened is even as they were writing the
Disapproval Notice they may have been just
taking the distance to the house without
respect to the deck, but if I understand
interpretation of the Code correctly, we need
the relief for the deck as well, even though
it's permitted, it's C of O'd, because we're
completely rebuilding it, which we have to
because we have to completely dismantle parts
of it the additions, they almost treat it as
if it's new construction, which is one of my
pet peeves with Southold Code because if
you're rebuilding a legally permitted
structure then you really can't treat it as
new construction, but nevertheless.
So anyway, with that clarification, the
47 feet from the bulkhead is to the nearest
corner of the deck. If you want to take to
the nearest setback to the side yard, it would
be for the attached deck, which is the 8.8 and
then adding that to the existing side yard on
the other side, you get your 20.1 and then
that makes us consistent with the Notice of
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Disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there's one other
thing. I have so many numbers down here.
MR. HERMAN: I think that's it, Leslie.
I think it was just that on the Notice of
Disapproval, I think if that said 8.8 instead
of 9.7, you wouldn't have been confused.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. HERMAN: It seems to me that's what
it is2 Now, I don't know if maybe when Vicky
wrote the notice maybe she checked with the
surveyor to come up with the -- I don't know
how else she came up with the 20.1, but it's
right on the Notice.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which is funny because
the actual notice says 9.7, but the survey
shows 9.2.
MR. HERMAN: Well but it shows
proposed addition.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HERMAN: The 9.7 you
shows up on the
the corner of the
MEMBER WEISMAN:
is. There it is.
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end up with is -
survey in smaller font to
existing house.
Alright. Oh, there it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
was
MR. HERMAN: I
MEMBER WEISMAN:
didn't catch it until I
I see it.
MR. HERMAN: -- filing it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. That's fine.
MR. HERMAN: In any event, hopefully,
that discussion highlights the fact of what
we're doing here is really just dealing with
the preexisting setbacks are. Obviously, the
deck, if we're reconstructing the deck where
it is, we unavoidably need relief to do that.
Again, we're keeping it the same except for
the portions closest to the house where the
sections of deck are being replaced either by
the addition or by the sunroom. The addition
on the -- the one and a half story addition on
the -- nearest to the road is actually not a
subject of this application because it exceeds
both the required bulkhead setback and it does
also exceed the minimum side yard requirement.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so basically the
house is actually in need of some repair, the
chimney --
MR. HERMAN: Right. I was just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- needs redoing and --
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MR. HERMAN: Yeah, I was waiting for the
phone to finish.
Meryl Kramer is here if you want to speak
with her a little bit about the design
specifically, but I can at least relate what
is relayed in our application, which is the
fact that basically the applicant is seeking
to correct what now is really a substandard
design of the easterly and northerly portions
of the existing dwelling. This house was
obviously modified in the past. On the east
side of the house the roof slope is too
shallow to drain the water properly because of
the inner section of the roof that was added
and the original roof and, in fact, Meryl has
pictures. In one place there is a chimney,
which was originally a wholly external
chimney, that is now partially out and
partially inside the house and you can see all
the water damage that is coming down right
around the chimney on the inside of the house.
So basically the purpose of the
modifications now, other than, obviously, to
renovate and improve the use of the house, is
to correct some of those problems that existed
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
previously and where that chimney is that's on
the north side of the house it's the wall that
separates the original dwelling from the
sunroom. It's what's bisecting that stone
chimney that resulted in the chimney being
part in and part out of the house. So the
proposed northerly addition now will actually
fully incorporate the stone chimney into the
interior by extending the original roof line
of the house. The easterly addition is -- we
are keeping the first story intact, basically
they are dormering over it and putting on a
new gabled roof on that side.
This project was reviewed by the Town
Trustees. Obviously, there is a wetlands
permit required from them because of the
portion of the project located within 100 feet
of the wetlands boundary, which for all
intents and purposes here is the bulkhead. So
you see their jurisdictional line crosses
through sort of the roadside of the house and
so along with the construction and renovations
there are some environmental improvements to
the property that went along with the proposed
plan for the wetlands permit, which this Board
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would also be
the fact that
nonconforming
than 100 feet
interested in, which includes
there is a preexisting
sanitary system located less
from Peconic Bay or Southold Bay
on the property now that will be replaced with
an upgraded sanitary system located more than
100 feet from the bulkhead. A drainage system
of leaders, gutters and drywells will be added
to the property, of course, to capture and
recharge roof runoff and there was a proposal
that was approved and endorsed by the Trustees
to establish a 6-foot wide approximately 380-
square-foot non-turf buffer adjacent to the
slope that leads down to the bulkhead. This
is not a bluff environment, it is -- there is
an embankment here that goes up to around
elevation 23 and the toe is bulkheaded, but
it's a very, very well vegetated bank face and
so we're looking to maintain that and enhance
that area a little bit with the non-turf
buffer behind it.
Again, Meryl
has any questions.
but I'm hoping in
Kramer is here if the Board
I'm happy to answer them,
light of your last two and a
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half hours this should be
one.
see
a relatively easy
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd just like to
the pictures that she has reflecting the -
MR. HERMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- deterioration.
MS. KRAMER: Sorry, I only brought four
copies.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright.
MR. HERMAN: Again, if it's the Board's
pleasure, I'm sure that Meryl can relay the
architectural design of the project more
effectively than I can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything
you'd like to say regarding that, Meryl?
MS. KRAMER: My name is Meryl Kramer, I'm
the architect. I can't let the opportunity to
go by and say nothing, but I think Rob pretty
much summarized the idea behind the design,
which is to try and extend the existing major
gable of the house, which is the prominent
design feature of the house and incorporates
the chimney within that to try and improve the
drainage and eliminate the flat roof by adding
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a gable which is more in keeping with the
style of the original architecture of the
house and gain space under that roof by adding
dormers on each side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any questions that
you have, Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. It's the -- plans
are very clear. I'm an architect, it's fine.
I have no questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's see
what develops throughout the hearing. We
thank you. Thank you both.
MS. KRAMER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what
develops. Anybody else like to speak? Sir?
MR. BARRY: Good afternoon, Rob and
Patricia Barry, 100 West Shore Drive. We're
the neighbors iramediately contiguous to the
east. We're delighted that the Manettis are
going to do this and we really look forward to
your approval. It's a good case.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hurray.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
else like to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
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closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6272 - Michael and
Linda Gambardella
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
December 15, 2008 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed addition to
the single-family dwelling. The Proposed
breezeway addition is proposed to connect the
preexisting two-story garage to the dwelling,
resulting in: (1) a side yard setback at less
than the code-required 15 ft. minimum and (2)
lot coverage exceeding the code limitation of
20%, at 9480 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue; CTM
1000-118-6-7 (adjacent to Peconic Bay)."
MR. SCHWARTZ: Hello. Mark Schwartz,
architect to the project. We're looking to
simply add a 7-foot by ll-foot breezeway
between the two existing structures. The
setback from the side yard to the breezeway is
about 22 feet. I believe the existing
detached garage is about 4.8 feet from the
property line. We're looking just to add this
so we have a covered walkway between the
garage itself and the side yard or entry
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(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is this truly an
apartment in this garage?
MR. SCHARTZ: It's, I think, it's a guest
occupancy or guest quarters, I believe.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: When does that date
from, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm not sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a pre-CO,
obviously.
MR. SCHWARTZ: 1983.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 1983.
BOARD ASST.: What's the lot coverage?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The lot coverage is
21 percent, right, 21.9 percent?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. The breezeway
itself is actually 0.1 percent increase on the
lot coverage. On what's there now.
BOARD ASST.: How many square feet is
that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How many square
feet is what?
BOARD ASST.: The 0.1 percent, we need
that in the decision.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it's 2
percent.
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, 0.1 percent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, it's 0.1
percent.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
increase.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
percent.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
footage, Mark,
It's a tenth of a percent
Currently it's a 21.9
Yeah.
So what's the square
do you have that if the new
area?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes,
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
77 square feet.
thank you.
Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: And that's an open
breezeway?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, open and will remain
open.
MEMBER SIMON: My only question is are
they doing this just simply to get out of the
rain?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, also aesthetically.
The addition to the existing house that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
there now is about 11 feet from the garage, so
aesthetically it kind of ties the --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh and is this --
MR. SCHWARTZ: And it looks nicer than --
MEMBER SIMON: Is there a reason it
wasn't done in the first place?
MR. SCHWARTZ: They honestly didn't think
of it. The honest answer is we didn't think
of it or we didn't want to come to the Zoning
Board, correct? We did everything we could on
the project to try to avoid coming to the
Zoning Board. We had an issue with the pool,
the location of the pool had to be 75 feet
back from the bulkhead, which kind of set
where we could set our addition and as the
addition went back towards the front of the
property it created a little bit of a lesser
space then we would want.
MEMBER SIMON: One question is when the
garage was built there before the breezeway
there was a 4.8-foot setback. Was a variance
required for that?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh no, it was probably 40
or 50 years ago.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, I see it's 40 or 50
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193
years --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, we're not doing --
well we're altering the garage we're kind of
reshingling it. We're not changing the shape
of the garage, we're just connecting to it.
BOARD ASST.: So no variance has been
granted for that.
MEMBER SIMON: No variance was granted
{inaudible) but if the garage had been -- I
don't know what the setback there is, 5 feet,
there would not -- the only reason there would
be a need for a variance now is because it
would be a setback for the house rather than a
setback for the garage. The
requirement for the house is
MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct.
setback
greater.
BOARD ASST.: It's for the garage.
MEMBER SIMON: But the garage is being
connected to the house and therefore the
garage setback is no longer (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: As part of the house, you
mean?
MEMBER SIMON: When it becomes part of
the house the setback requirement changes for
the house.
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MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. So that would be --
even if it were -- even if the garage were
nonconforming, you would be here for that side
setback.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I meant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why he's
here, is that correct?
MEMBER SIMON: No, he's here because the
garage is -- it wasn't a conforming garage
much less --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You mean conforming
as to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean it's a
preexisting garage.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I know -- as to the
setback for the garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct.
Okay, anybody have any questions of Mr.
Schwartz?
Anybody in the audience have any
questions of Mr. Schwartz? Appeal %6272.
Hearing no questions, seeing no hands,
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I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6277 John and
Kathleen Berkery
MEMBER SIMON:
"Location of Property: 250 Bayview
Drive, East Marion (adjacent to Spring Pond);
CTM 37-4-2. Requests for Variances under
Sections 280-116 and 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's January 15, 2009 Notice
of Disapproval concerning an application for a
building permit to construct additions and
alterations to the existing dwelling. The
reasons stated for disapproving the
application are:
(1) a single side yard setback will be
less than 10 feet;
(2) the combined side yard setbacks will
be less than 25 feet (both sides);
(3) the rear yard setback will be less
than 35 feet from the property line;
(4) the setback to the bulkhead will be
less than the code required minimum
of 75 feet;
(5) the percentage of lot coverage on
this buildable lot area of 8,676.41
square feet will exceed the code
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(6) limitation of 20%."
MEMBER SIMON: Lot coverage to, I
believe, 21.9 percent. Yes, Mr. Schwartz.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi, Rob Schwartz. This
sounds complicated, but it's actually
straightforward. We're reducing the overall
lot coverage somewhat and we're also reducing
the size of the actual living space of the
house. On the south side there's a -- we're
going to remove the existing 12 by 15 sunroom
as you can see on the -- if you look on the
existing south elevation. In place, as we
remove that sunroom we'd like to put a deck,
an open deck in that area and add a roof over
the 12 by 29 space that will be on that south
side once we remove the sunroom. We're also
looking to add a 4-foot by 8-foot entry
platform to get into the side yard into the
side of the house and a 5-foot by 8-foot
shower, outside shower, that's on the west
side.
MEMBER SIMON:
the Code, what is
From the point of view of
changing with regard to
setbacks since it's already nonconforming?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well nonconforming.
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MEMBER SIMON: It's well nonconforming
and is the nonconformity increasing in any
place?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER SIMON:
from this. So this
No. No, it's not.
That's what it looked like
is just because it's a
change to an already nonconforming and it has
to be reevaluated and the nonconformity then
will since be renewed.
MR. SCHWARTZ: And also we're within the
75-foot setback from the bulkhead.
MEMBER SIMON: Right,
preexisting nonconformity.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
right, which is a
Okay.
Well, really you're
putting the answer -- the question, and
correct me if I'm wrong, you're putting the
porch out which creates a little nonconformity
and two bay windows.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
BOARD ASST.: The entry steps
(inaudible).
yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The entry steps,
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, if you look on the
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existing survey, there was an existing --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Porch there.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the 4-foot by 25-
foot concrete ramp went into this house so
there was 100 square feet
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
side?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay,
on that west
That was removed.
4 feet by what?
MR. SCHWARTZ: 4-foot by 25 feet and
that's on the existing survey.
BOARD ASST.: It shows it on the east
side on the survey map.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah,
side, sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
side?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
proposing steps?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
proposing the shower,
shower.
BOARD ASST.: I
It's
you' re right. East
It is the east
Yes.
So on the west side you're
On the west side we're
5-foot by 8-foot outside
can't see this plan.
very tiny, it's hard to read.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
you on one sheet,
BOARD ASST.:
good.
Is this shower a --
I thought it would help
actually.
A little bigger would be
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that shower in
the northwest corner? Where is that shower?
MR. SCHWARTZ: I think it's on the
southwest. It's shown on the west elevation,
the proposed west elevation on the bottom
right hand corner.
BOARD ASST.: What about on the first
floor plan, I'm trying to find it on the site
map?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: It's just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Slight bump out.
BOARD ASST.: I'm just trying to find it.
Where is it on here, is that it?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that's the entry.
It's not on this one.
BOARD ASST.: It says new entry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Outdoor shower.
BOARD ASST.: But that entry is on the
east side so this is reversed? This is east
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side, this is west.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's where the
problem came in.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, right here.
Okay, good. Who has questions of Mr.
Schwartz on this application? Anyone?
Anybody in the audience have a question?
Mark, anything to add?
BOARD ASST.: What's the square footage
of the new area that's increased?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Increased new area
square footage?
BOARD ASST.:
increased number?
MR. SCHWARTZ:
For lot coverage, the new
It's -- there's actually
the overall coverage is less. Total building
area proposed is 2261 and existing is 2307.
That's in the site plan area calculations.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2307?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Existing lot coverage?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And what's the proposed?
MR. SCHWARTZ: 2261.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2261.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no
further comment from anyone,
motion closing the hearing,
decision.
I'll make a
reserving
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6289 - Susan Tsavaris
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116A(1), based on the Building Inspector's
March 4, 2009 Notice of Disapproval concerning
a proposed addition and alterations to the
existing dwelling with a setback at less than
100 feet from the top of the bluff or bank of
the Long Island Sound, at 2170 The Strand,
East Marion; CTM 1000-30-2-53."
Who is the representative?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record?
MS. TSAVARIS: Susan Tsavaris.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, would you tell us
about your application, please?
MS. TSAVARIS: Okay. I have a sunroom,
an existing sunroom that's there. Okay and
it's a two-story sunroom and it's severely
leaking and it -- what we're looking to do is
take the glass fagade off and have a new
sturdier structure put in its place in the
front. You know,
there.
MEMBER SIMON:
the rest of it is staying
On the waterside?
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MS. TSAVARIS: On the waterside, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Is there going to be any
extension closer to the --
MS. TSAVARIS: No. No. Oh, the
footprint will not be changed.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Is there anything
that is being changed other than this --
MS. TSAVARIS:
take the glass off,
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. TSAVARIS:
Susan's husband.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. TSAVARIS:
The only -- no.
okay, but the --
Yeah, okay.
I'm George Tsavaris,
They'll
Okay.
We're looking also to --
the second floor is pulled forward so that the
face of the sunroom is one straight structure.
MS. TSAVARIS: Straight line, right.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, but it will not
overhang where the front is?
MS. TSAVARIS: No.
MR. TSAVARIS: No.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay,
further questions at this
may have questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I don't have any
time. Other people
Is that that 3-1/2
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not shown there either.
BOARD ASST.: What is
for again?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it you're looking
It's 3-1/2 feet,
the overlap on the second floor. I had just
seen it before, oh, here it is 3 feet even.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the second floor
is currently stepped back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So they're just going to
step it forward so that it's parallel to the
bottom.
MS. TSAVARIS: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, now
is this for the entire face of the portion of
the house that faces the water or is it --
MS. TSAVARIS: Just for where it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just the solarium?
MR. TSAVARIS: Just the solarium.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just the solarium
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MR. TSAVARIS: The three on the top, yes,
on the second floor?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not there, no.
Just let me get to that particular one. It's
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on the second story.
MR. TSAVARIS: The solarium is being
brought forward to meet the first floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that will have
regular windows in it as opposed to --
MR. TSAVARIS: It's going to have
hurricane-proof windows.
MS. TSAVARIS: Hurricane-proof windows.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, Michael,
anything else from you?
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have anymore.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
questions.
Nothing, Ken?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Nope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just stay
right there.
Is there anyone in the audience like to
speak for or against this application?
It may be the fastest hearing that we've
done.
The setback is 70 feet according to the
Code to the top of the bluff; is that correct?
MS. TSAVARIS: I believe so. Yes, that's
where it's marked.
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BOARD ASST.: Is it -- there are two
maps. One said one setback, and the other
said another. So you want us to use the --
MS. TSAVARIS: The 70 feet.
BOARD ASST.: -- 70 feet. The surveyor
had the 70 feet.
MS. TSAVARIS: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So does the Notice.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, so we don't
usually go by -- so we're going to go with the
70.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyway
that you would like to check that to make sure
that is completely accurate and let us know?
MS. TSAVARIS: I think that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You think it's
accurate.
MR. TSAVARIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so hearing no
further comments, I'll make a motion closing
the hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6267 - Madeline Droege
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is a continued
appeal. It is appeal #6267. Excuse me,
special exception.
Fred, would you just state your name for
the record, when you get up there? Thank you.
MR. MARKUM: Fred Markum, Peconic Permit
Expediting. If I could beg your indulgence, I
know you wanted Ms. Droege here for proof that
she lives there full-time and, because of the
backup in your schedule, she had a quick
meeting that she had to go to and is on her
way back presently. Can we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, you are aware
of the letter that we sent you?
MR. MARKUM: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And -- which is not
necessarily --
MR. MARKUM: I can address that stuff,
but you wanted her here,
back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do
the Nealz and then --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
so she's on her way
Right. Okay.
you want to maybe do
No, we sent him a
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letter --
MEMBER SIMON:
she comes back.
But we have to wait until
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, we can do that
at the end of here, but let him present this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine.
MR. MARKUM: Fine. With respect to your
communication, basically, you saw the revised
May 12th submission of drawings?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. MARKUM: With the high water marks on
it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. MARKUM: Okay, the second floor deck
and stairs and steps, let me take that first.
Okay, that we applied to the Trustees because
of the setback from the high water mark and we
have approval from the Trustees for that. We
have not filed plans to the Building
Department for that as yet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. MARKUM: And, basically, we will be -
- we were of the understanding that the two
structures on the deck side of the home were
not aS big as they appear to be. We will be
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applying to the Building Department for a
denial on those as well as the sauna and would
like, if possible to, you know, have that
wrapped into a July meeting, if possible, to
finish this up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
we'll deal with it.
BOARD ASST.:
application.
MR. MARKUM: Okay. Okay.
After it's filed,
You have to file a new
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the purpose of filing the
MR. MARKUM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
You are aware of
applications?
You are. I mean,
in the special exception situation everything
has to be perfectly CO'd on the property.
MR. MARKUM: Right. It was --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We actually thought
it was until further investigation that came
to us.
MR. MARKUM:
we looked at it.
We thought it was too, until
We were told that the so-
called sauna is 4 by 5, but the other two
structures just slipped by. We thought they
were 10 by 10, which wouldn't have caused that
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problem, except for the side lot setback.
BOARD ASST.: Well, it still has to meet
the Zoning Code, the size doesn't exempt you
from location in the side yard.
MR. MARKUM: Right, you have to get a
hurricane structure. I understand.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, any size. 10 by 10,
5 by 5, you still have to be either in a rear
yard or a permitted front yard, not a side
yard.
MR. MARKUM: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we're talking about
the shed of the greenhouse in the side yard?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MR. MARKUM: Right. I mean, do you want
me to go into any of the issues that we
covered at the last meeting with respect to
answers to that? No. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only other
thing that's up in the air is the issue of
280A.
MR. MARKUM: We have -- we made an
appointment with the -- with Jamie Richter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MARKUM: To meet with him and find
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out what he thinks is the solution.
BOARD ASST.: And that's through the
Planning Office you're doing that? The
Planning Board office you would need to do
that.
MR. MARKUM:
BOARD ASST.:
Okay.
Cause they have a --
it's a
Town-approved map.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The road is
primarily within the subdivision except for
one little portion of it on the way out.
MR. MARKUM: Right, okay.
BOARD ASST.: We've contacted the
Planning office and told them that you would
be in touch with them. Okay, thank you.
MR. MARKUM: Right. Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, and that
is the story and when you get to that
particular point give us a yell and we will
make every attempt to put it on for a
decision.
MR. MARKUM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
MR. MARKUM: Okay. Thank you. You have
the other information you requested and --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. We'll just
hold this abeyance for a little while and see
if she's able to come.
MR. MARKUM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If not, she can do
it at the next hearing.
MR. MARKUM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Uh --
MR. MARKUM: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think she's here
right now.
MR. MARKUM: You got it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hi, Mrs. Droege,
how are you?
MRS. DROEGE: Hello.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just tell
us your name, please, for the record?
MRS. DROEGE: Madeleine Droege, D-R-O-E-
G-E.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Raise your right
hand. Do you solemnly swear the information
you' re about to give us is the truth to the
best of your knowledge?
MRS. DROEGE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. You have
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submitted to us a driver's license indicating
PO Box 162 in Orient and the zip code. Is
that where you live?
MRS. DROEGE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Well, it's a PO Box.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but -- is not
-- what is your street address, I should say.
Thank you.
MRS. DROEGE: 885 Petty's Drive in Orient
Point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is that where
you live?
MRS. DROEGE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I should say that
was your mailing address, I do apologize.
MRS. DROEGE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. And if you
were so inclined to vote in either a School
Board election or in a public election for the
election of any candidates who were running in
the Town of Southold, would you be voting in
Orient, New York?
MRS. DROEGE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
have any further questions of this particular
applicant.
Does anybody else have any questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you have another
residence besides --
MRS. DROEGE: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the one in Orient?
MRS. DROEGE: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is your only
residence, okay. How often are you in the
city? You have a business that you run in the
city, yes, a restaurant?
MRS. DROEGE: No, I don't run it from the
city.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You run it from your
home?
MRS. DROEGE: I own a building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MRS. DROEGE: I manage the building and
it's online. My building is operatable (sic)
from my computer and my telephone.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. DROEGE: And I just basically rent
it. I press the button and buzz people in. I
look in my camera and watch them as they and
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then when they sign the lease they come here.
I rent my building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You rent your building.
Okay. So could you tell us a little bit about
the business that you operate?
MRS. DROEGE: The building is my
business.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The building.
MRS. DROEGE: I mean if you're asking
about the -- it's not a restaurant. There is
a theatre on the ground floor, it's vacant,
and so, as the building owner, I'm renovating
it and I installed a snack bar in the theatre,
but I, myself, am not running it. I'm going
to hire someone to do it, but I do go into the
city to inspect the renovations. It's my
building, ultimately, if I had to work there,
I would, but mainly I'm just setting it up so
that it's turnkey and someone else can -- it's
more attractive to a renter.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is this an apartment
rental or a commercial or a retail --
MRS. DROEGE:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. DROEGE:
No, no. It's ground floor.
Where is it?
Church Street in Manhattan.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. DROEGE: It's a theatre.
the C of 0 for the building, it's
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gotcha.
There's
a theatre.
Okay.
MRS. DROEGE:
in Greenport, but
theatre is a live
It's like there's a theatre
it's a movie theatre. My
show theatre.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. DROEGE: It's like the Greenport has
a snack bar, my theatre didn't have one so I
installed one. It's -- as a building owner,
I'm responsible for my bottom line, it's to my
best interest to enhance it. In a recession
it's very hard to rent. Normally, I would
just show it to someone and they would just
take it as is and renovate it themselves, but
the market is weak so at the moment I am
beautifying it and making it more turnkey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
Questions?
MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so what's the
Board's pleasure in this particular
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application? To hold it in abeyance until a
further application comes in regarding the
issues that we just discussed with Mr. Markum
and then run both of them simultaneously?
BOARD ASST.: Adjourn it without a date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Adjourn it without
a date, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. We might want
to take any additional testimony today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we will.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I think that's the
best and most economical way from your point
of view, for us to just
date until you have all
that you need to.
adjourn it without a
the parts together
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. DROEGE: Is that good?
MR. MARKUM: Yes, that's good.
MRS. DROEGE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Wickham, could
you use this mike over here?
MS. WICKHAM: Good afternoon. Abigail
Wickham, Mattituck, New York representing
Mallace to the -- adjoining to the east.
I'm not going to go into anything other
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than -- oh, wait a minute, that's what I
wanted to do was have you ask her some more
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we'll ask her
at the next hearing, don't worry about it.
MS. WICKHAM: Will she be at the next
hearing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll ask that she
be at the next hearing.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay. I just want to
clarify a couple of questions in furtherance
to what you asked and I'd also like a copy of
what was submitted today, but I can get that
at another time since we're adjourning.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to mention for
the record, since it's going to be
transcribed, that Mrs. Droege the owner, left
the hearing and is not present.
MS. WICKHAM: Before I could ask that the
Chairman address additional questions.
BOARD ASST.: Her representative is here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
reason why we can't give you a copy of this
right now.
MS. WICKHAM:
If you have an extra.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
objection to that,
MR. MARKUM:
MS. WICKHAM:
Do you have any
Mr. Markum?
(Inaudible).
Thank you. And I gave him
a copy of my (inaudible).
I guess I am --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of your letter?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
letter.
Can we have a copy
We have a copy of her
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a copy,
that's right we have a copy.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, yeah, we have it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to excuse
us, we've been in session --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail day.
MS. WICKHAM: I know. I realize --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's been really,
really difficult today.
Alright, so I'll make a motion recessing
the hearing without a date.
Oh, I'm terribly sorry.
MS. GASKO: [Not at mike.] {Inaudible).
Okay, my name is Patricia Gasko. I live
at 560 Grandview Drive. We have a lovely home
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that we built (inaudible) hands, we love it
here and my concern is the roads. Okay?
There are two access roads to Madeleine's
house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just clear
this up for you before you go any farther? We
have requested that the Town -- we haven't
requested, but Mr. Markum, who represents Mrs.
Droege and is sitting in back of you, is
having the road evaluated for New York Town
Law 280A, which is improved access. We are
referring to Petty's Bight, or Bight Road.
Okay and the adjacent roads that lead to her
premises.
So I'm not taking words out of your
mouth, okay, you're certainly welcome to say
this, but we will not know anything until such
time that we get the evaluation from the Town
Engineer regarding what they have to do to the
road to bring it up to minimum specifications.
We are aware of the situation with Grandview
and the overuse or, excuse me, the use of that
road.
MS. GASKER: Ail the time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As access to the
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Petty's Bight
subdivision.
subdivision.
MS. GASKER:
we're concerned.
subdivision or the Bight
I forget the name of the
But even beyond the road,
We have grandchildren that
frequently come to visit us as do other people
in the area and the added traffic going
through there, you know, people ride their
bikes running, walking, playing, running in
the street for a ball, there's curbs, we're
frightened.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can't -- there's
nothing I can do about that, that is a matter
of a different agency in this Town, okay --
BOARD ASST.: Well, she might be talking
about safety. Are you talking about safety?
MS. GASKER:
BOARD ASST.:
to finish.
Cause she didn't really get
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but that's a police matter. It's not a matter
before this Board. If somebody is improperly
using your road, then you need to call the
police on it or any other agency. That does
not affect this particular -- we're saying we
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want to bring the road up to specifications so
the road is being used. That's what we're --
that's what we want to do,
MS. GASKER: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
okay?
So people aren't
using an alternate road to this premises and,
you know, I'm not taking anything away from
your statement, I'm merely saying to you that
that's what we are trying to do.
MS. GASKER: Now, who will be responsible
for finishing that road? The people that live
in the other area, the Bight area?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MS. GASKER: They all have to chip in to
finish that road?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It -- they have
several options. Okay, the main and probably
the best option would be to ask the Highway
Superintendent to create a special use
district for the reconstruction of that road
and in doing so they would be taxed, everyone
would be taxed for the construction of the
road over a, probably a ten-year bonding
period. Alright and that is what I referred
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to as the most utopian (inaudible) that could
be done.
MS. GASKER: Now you're referring to the
people that live in that, not in the Grandview
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
Not in your section.
MS. GASKER: -- Estates section.
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. That's the
one, the other one would be just to fill the
potholes and make it more accessible. Okay,
that's the least. I am not the Town Engineer.
This is not a sarcastic statement, you're a
very nice lady, okay, I just wanted you to be
aware that that
before us here.
MS. GASKER:
is one of the issues that are
Yeah, cause there's beach
grass growing, trees. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're very
welcome.
Yes?
MS. WICKHAM: I know you've had a long
morning, but I just want to clarify that I
think what this lady was saying was beyond the
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concern that she might have that would require
police intervention that she is concerned
under your special exception criteria of the
things we've mentioned, which is traffic and
safety and extra people coming in and out as a
result of the bed and breakfast operation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My --
MS. WICKHAM: I think that's beyond what
is just a question of calling the police for
safety.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is some truth
to that, Ms. Wickham, but the issue is I don't
know who allowed the two subdivisions to be
joined in general. If it is the Planning
Board, it's the Planning Board that needs to
address that.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
(Inaudible).
Right and once the
road is brought up to specifications the road
should be severed, not in reference to
severed, but a barrier should be put up
between both roads, okay, and that's my
suggestion on the whole situation. I am not
involved in that, nor is this Board
specifically involved in that.
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BOARD ASST.: I thought she was talking
about the special exception standards.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: If you put a barrier
(inaudible) access to the fire department, the
police department? If you put that -- you're
talking about putting a barrier between Bight
Road and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am only saying
that that is -- that sounds like what
everybody in Grandview would want. I am not
suggesting that in any way, manner or form. I
am only saying that that's what I've heard
from some people that that's what they want.
They don't want people accessing the Grandview
subdivision -- is that a public road or a
private road?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Private road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a private
road. Okay, so it has to be dealt with in
that way. Okay --
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Grandview Drive
actually a paper street,
on (inaudible) map.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
and I
we don't even
find it
I understand that
-- certainly not in a Hagstom because I
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
looked for it, okay, and the new Hagstroms
which cost $49.95 it's not on that either, to
my knowledge. So the Planning Board created
both of those subdivisions. They need to deal
with both of those subdivisions in reference
to what has to be done here. We are basically
out of this because the roads are
significantly in those subdivisions. I'm not
throwing this -- I'm not casting it away, I'm
just telling you that the issue of 280A, which
is approved access 24/7, is an issue that was
brought up regarding this special permit.
That's what needs to be addressed in the
Petty's Bight area.
Okay, pleasure.
Anybody else like to say something?
Yes, sir.
MR. DADOURIAN: My name is Greg
Dadourian, I'm the owner, the landowner next
door to Mrs. Droege.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh yeah. How are
you doing? How are you doing on the house?
MR. DADOURIAN: We haven't started
anything yet, but we're working on --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wanted to ask you
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
that at the last hearing.
MR. DADOURIAN: Nothing new.
My question is what -- going forward now,
what is the -- are we talking about the bed
and breakfast?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's held in
abeyance until the applicant's agents get the
proper information that we need to go forward
with the special exception. There are
specific things that need to be done to the
Droege property and applications that need to
be submitted to us.
MR. DADOURIAN: Okay and they didn't know
this before today?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, actually none
of us knew it because they had actually had
all legal approvals but never made -- I hope
this is not -- this is not meant to be
derogatory toward anybody, but they needed to
make applications to the Building Department
and that's what we're waiting for.
So those are all the issues that are --
MR. DADOURIAN: So you're going to push
another meeting you said in July?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't know --
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MR.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We
they hope it's July.
BOARD ASST.: It depends
file, cause they get a number
DADOURIAN: You don't know.
hope it's July,
on when they
and right now
our next availability
MR. DADOURIAN: Wow.
BOARD ASST.: So --
MR. DADOURIAN: Okay,
is October 1st.
Okay.
we've been through
this before, but I mean if it's in July it's
going to be tough to get the same cast of
characters here again to --
BOARD ASST.: I think July's closed. You
have to knock somebody off for July and that
would be very difficult to do.
MR. DADOURIAN: So, at this point, I
shouldn't discuss my opposition to the bed and
breakfast, you're not taking that testimony?
I mean --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll take any
testimony you want.
MR. DADOURIAN: I did it once before, but
I don't know if it's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Actually, it's
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230
even know who anyone is if
running around.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
they're transients
I have to tell you
that we've been granting special permits for
bed and breakfasts for a long time. My
opinion, and my opinion only, the track record
has been relatively good. The bed and
breakfast organization which there's a group
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probably sometimes better, at this time, to
submit it in writing and then to enhance it or
de-enhance it based upon, you know, the future
hearing.
MR. DADOURIAN: My personal concerns are
the safety of -- concerns of transient people
staying next door to me and just next door to
me, but being in the same neighborhood,
residential neighborhood as other people. I
mean, it is a residential neighborhood and
being transients we don't know them and I
have, you know, I have small kids and I'm sure
that there are other small kids there. So my
concern is that, you know, having strangers.
You know, one day it's one person and the next
day it could be someone completely different
and we don't know them. You know, we don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
of, alright, some people belong to it, some
people don't, it's voluntary, do a wonderful
job and most people are very happy with it.
MR. DADOURIAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But I want you to
be aware, as I have told everybody, that
special permits as well as they can be
granted, they can be taken away. I have to
tell you this also, we've only taken one away
in the last 20 years,
that -- but -- and it
breakfast.
okay, and I'm not sure
was not a bed and
But we have not had any significant
problems.
MR. DADOURIAN: For the record, I'm not
opposed to the steps. She wants to put steps.
I'm not opposed to any of that. My opposition
is just to the bed and breakfast itself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Alright.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to mention too
that when you file a new application that both
applications would be going on the same
calendar for everyone's convenience. The new
mailings and the new sign posting and a new
legal notice would be published for the same
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neighbors. So you'll see a new sign up and
it'll be posted ahead of time that the
applicant has to follow up with.
MR. DADOURIAN: A sign where?
BOARD ASST.: At the property to let you
know --
MR. DADOURIAN: At the property.
BOARD ASST.: -- the B and B hearing will
be held on a certain date.
MR. DADOURIAN: Okay, will I also get
something in the mail?
BOARD ASST.: Are you -- you're right
next door?
MR. DADOURIAN: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Yes, you would get a
certified letter again from the agent.
MR. DADOURIAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Hearing no further comment, again, I'll
make a motion adjourning the hearing with no
date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
HEARING #6274 - Leann Nealz
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
January 14, 2009 revised Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed rear screen porch
addition to the existing dwelling, which
construction will result in a rear yard
setback at less than the code required minimum
of 35 feet and lot coverage exceeding the code
limitation of 20%, at 195 Village Lane,
Orient; CTM 1000-18-5-8."
So there are two variances, for the rear
yard setback and for lot coverage. Now, you
are aware that you would still need a CA, a
certificate of appropriateness from the
Landmarks Preservation?
MR. GOBLE: Yes, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. GOBLE: My name is Blake Goble. I'm
the architect representing Leann Nealz.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you spell
the last name?
MR. GOBLE: G-O-B-L-E.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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MR. GOBLE: And as you can see from the
site plan, the proposed addition, which is
basically a -- they're interested in having a
sleeping porch accessible from the bedrooms,
which are in the rear of the house, would
encroach on the 35-foot rear yard setback by
approximately 3 to 4 feet on the north corner
It's a property -- the property line
so it's sort of a pie-shaped
of that.
is angled,
intrusion.
The lot coverage is already exceeding
the
20 percent maximum allowed with no proposed
work. We're at 21.6 percent coverage. We are
increasing that in this proposal to 22.7
percent. The proposed setback would be 31
feet and 1 inch from the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. GOBLE: 31 feet
rear property line.
30-what?
and 1 inch.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The step is 5 feet,
isn't it?
MR. GOBLE: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I believe you made the
reasonable arguments that less than 5 foot
width is not much of a habitable space.
MR. GOBLE: That's correct, yes. I mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
that's about getting a place to sleep, really.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a 5-foot by 28-foot
4-inch covered porch on the first floor and a
5 by 28 for covered second story balcony.
MR. GOBLE: That's right. The balcony on
the second floor is under the eave so the
standing room really is the middle third of
that, I'd say 6 feet. You know, at the north
and south end it's coming down to the first
story.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Will that
(inaudible) have a flat roof
MR. GOBLE: No, no, no.
gable and the existing gable
that, correct.
on it?
We're taking the
and extending
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Cause you'd
get a little wet if it started to rain.
MEMBER SIMON: Is it a screened porch?
MR. GOBLE: Screened porch, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: And it'll be open during
the winter?
MR. GOBLE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: No walls?
MR. GOBLE: No, no glass. No, just
screen.
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MEMBER SIMON: And no heat?
MR. GOBLE: No heat. In fact, even the
crawl space underneath. There will just be a
permeable deck on the ground floor. So we're
just going to put posts to hold it up.
MEMBER SIMON: So you're saying that this
porch is really narrower than most people
build their decks.
MR. GOBLE: I mean there's not much of a
yard and we didn't want to sort of take over
the yard with this, but the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The dormer
situation is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The dormers are fine.
MR. GOBLE: The dormers are under the
Landmarks -- we're going through both.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
They're --
MR. GOBLE: --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's up to them.
of these.
That's an aesthetic
device under their jurisdiction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MEMBER SIMON: When do you meet at
Landmarks?
MR. GOBLE: I've met with them three
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times over the past three months.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How is that going?
MR. GOBLE: It's going well. Their
concerns mostly are for the historic nature of
the house, so we've been talking about really
rather minute details of rafter (inaudible)
and keeping in the Arts and Crafts style
house. So really what those dormers can be
stylistically appropriate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How old is the
house?
MR. GOBLE: 1925, I believe, I'm not
exactly sure, but from the 20s I believe.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very nice.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are they waiting for our
variances?
MR. GOBLE: Landmarks?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. GOBLE: We're concurring, and yeah, I
mean it's just the schedule that --
MEMBER SIMON: They're not overlapping.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I understand.
MR. GOBLE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, some -- once in a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
while we do overlap, in this
There was an accessory structure
us and we had to workout who has
MR. GOBLE: I see.
case we' re not.
once before
jurisdiction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Priority jurisdiction.
MR. GOBLE: These seem to be two separate
concerns --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, okay.
MR. GOBLE: -- for the Board of Appeals.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any further
questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you sure,
Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: No further questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Have you talked to Skip
and (inaudible) about the house? Are they
aware of the plans? Did you get a letter back
from Waxberger next door, the neighbor?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not sure.
BOARD ASST.: No, there's no letter.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I mean just the
receipt of the --
MR. GOBLE: We did get the receipt.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: The green (inaudible)
receipt.
MR. GOBLE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You go it, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So they've been
notified.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, on that
note, we'll make a motion closing the hearing
and reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 28, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature~/~]~ ~. ]_t)~-
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
June 17, 2009
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