Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-04/23/2009 Hearing1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Southold Town Hall Southold, New York April 23, 2009 10:07 a.m. Board Members Present: GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member RUTH OLIVA - Member MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney ABSENT: KEN SCHNEIDER - Member Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 ORIGINAL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 INDEX OF HEARINGS Hearing: Efstathios and Maryann Katsoulis %6270 Reconvened Madeline Droege %6267 Robert and Beth Anello %6242 Andrew and Elizabeth Greene %6235 Peter and Katherine Baccile %6266 David Berwald %6250 Eric McClure %6269 E and C Property Holding, Inc. and Educational & Cultural Fund of the Joint Industry Board for the Electrical Industry %6245 Alan Cardinale, Jr. %6246 Frank Zagarino Trust 96257 George Yatrakis %6237 Michael and Therese Hughes %6236 Page: 3-17 90-94 18-48 49-89 95-104 105-122 123-150 151-157 158-194 195-218 219-227 228-257 258-302 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: order. Motion? BOARD MEMBER: So moved. BOARD MEMBER: Second. Call meeting to HEARING #6270 - Efstathios and Maryann Katsoulas MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for Variances under Sections 280-122 and ZBA Interpretation #5039 (R. Walz) based on the Building Inspector's November 12, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed additions and alterations to the existing dwelling, which new construction will constitute an increase in the degree of front yard setback and lot coverage non- conformances. Location of Property: 1175 First Street, New Suffolk; CTM Parcel 117-7- 27." Is there someone here to address that? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state your name for the record, sir? MR. KATSOULIS: Estathios Katsoulas. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Katsoulas, I have a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 8?8-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 -- I understand that you want to put on an 8.1 foot by 8.9 foot one-story addition to your dwelling in back, which will continue the side yard as it currently is in its nonconforming state, but before we begin that I'd like to ask you about lot coverage. In looking at all the material in your application, the Notice of Disapproval says that the lot coverage is 24.8 percent now and as proposed will become 25.5 percent. Of course, as you know, the Code permits 20 percent. Now, there is a -- on June 3rd of 2004 the Zoning Board granted a variance #5522 granting you the second story deck. MR. KATSOULAS: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: And at that time that notice -- that variance indicated that the lot coverage was 23.9 percent. Now, how did it go from 23.9 percent in 2004 to 24.8 percent according to the Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval, that's what it says you have now, 24.8. So I just want to clarify it cause I don't understand it. MR. KATSOULAS: So in other words, it grew, you know, it got bigger? PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah. It looks like it grew. No, I don't know what -- maybe the architect made a mistake. You know, I didn't do any extensions since then. You know, it's still the same as original and the only reason I want to do this is I just want to square-off my living room. I mean it's only like 64 square MEMBER WEISMAN: small. MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. KATSOULAS: feet or something. Yeah, it's small. Yeah. Um -- The only -- unless, It's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 unless they consider the deck, the second story deck as living space and that's the -- where the increase came in? MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know. I'm just trying to track down these inconsistencies so that we get it right. MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't we have him call his architect and then come back to US? MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's not -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 because his -- this is even more complicated by the fact that on the Oyster Bay Drafting, who was the architect, they indicate on the site plan that was submitted to us a lot coverage for the house, pool and patio of 16.06 percent, currently, the driveway not being included, and being proposed at 16.52 percent. So we have three different things, a previous variance, a Notice of Disapproval, and a site plan from your architect or drafts person. So I don't really find the proposed addition problematic in terms of your house, but I do find it confusing as to how we proceed with the variance for lot coverage. You already have a lot of your lot covered. You know, you have a large swimming pool with a gazebo with a lot of decking and so on and -- MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah, of this. I mean, it's not really, you know, but it's not part living space I mean -- MEMBER WEISMAN: called lot coverage. any structure. MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah, but it's still Lot coverage includes That was the pool and the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 deck and the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It's approved and that put you over the Code-permitted 20 percent lot coverage. MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand, yeah. And now you want to go even more over that lot coverage, but I want to understand exactly what the coverage is. MEMBER OLIVA: He doesn't know. MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe, Gerry, that's a good idea to have you consult with your architect. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can do -- you can start at the Building Department and then call your architect and come back to us? BOARD ASST.: What's the question? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Lot coverage, there's three different kinds of adjustments for lot coverage. MR. KATSOULAS: Maybe it's an error or a mistake or something and -- MEMBER SIMON: It has to be clarified. BOARD ASST.: I might be able to clarify it. MEMBER SIMON: I mean I saw the same Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 inconsistencies that Leslie did. It's hard to access an application when it is virtually incoherent because there are different numbers and we'd like to know what the real numbers are. BOARD ASST.: are different? MEMBER WEISMAN: Disapproval says it's What are the numbers that Well, the Notice of currently 24.8 percent and proposed at 25.5 percent. The previous variance from the ZBA in 2004 indicated that the existing was 23.9 percent lot coverage. So it went from 23.9 percent in 2004 to 24.8 percent currently according to the Building Inspector's Notice and it's proposed at 25.5 percent. BOARD ASST.: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yet, if you have the site plan in front of you, Linda, the site plan it looks as though it's saying it's 16.06 percent. Proposed at 16.52 percent. MEMBER OLIVA: Take your pick. BOARD ASST.: Well, that's after they demoed the garage. There's a note on the file map that says that the -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. KATSOULAS: garage not built. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. KATSOULAS: There's no garage, the Right, but then -- And I had a old barn there which I it's not existing. MEMBER WEISMAN: the -- knock it down a long time ago so Yeah. So, you see, but BOARD ASST.: It says on the map that the dwelling itself is 11.3 percent as proposed with the addition. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right? BOARD ASST.: And then with the swimming pool it would increase it to 16.52 percent, but then they decided to take out the garage. So they should have returned to the Building Department and get a revised Notice of Disapproval. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm suggesting you do. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean this is all lip service right now. So -- MEMBER SIMON: Are you saying that the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 site plan that we have with the 16.06 percent contains a garage which doesn't exist? MR. KATSOULAS: No. It is a garage that I built back in '87 as part of the addition I did back when I built that house in '87. MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER WEISMAN: garage. MR. KATSOULAS: correct. MEMBER SIMON: Right. He has an attached It's an attached garage, No, I don't mean the attached garage. I mean the -- MR. KATSOULAS: The detached garage, no. MEMBER SIMON: No, no. How does the current plan say 16-1/2 percent when all the other ones say 23.4 percent? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't know, Michael. MEMBER SIMON: That's what we need an answer to. BOARD ASST.: Mr. Katsoulas, have you seen your map? It shows that there's a detached existing garage, but you're gonna be demolishing that. MR. KATSOULAS: It is demolished already. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 You guys visit the parcel. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, BOARD ASST.: It's not it's not there. there anymore? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's not there. BOARD ASST.: So we will need new figures and Gerry, would you like to take over? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like you to go back to the Building Department and ask them if they could verify the figures that they have given you on a Notice of Disapproval and inform them that the garage is not there and ask them if they have any -- I mean it's not a certification from them, but if you need to speak to your engineer, you need to speak to him. MR. KATSOULAS: Speak to him about what? The garage that's not there? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What the exact figures are. Mr. Katsoulas, this is a morning hearing. We're gonna be here this afternoon. MR. KATSOULAS: I know. I know it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You could take care of this whole thing right now and we could close this hearing. We can't close it -- MR. KATSOULAS: I go to the Building Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Department ask them to verify the square footage, that's what you're telling me -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the lot coverage. MEMBER WEISMAN: your copy with you? MR. KATSOULAS: No. MEMBER WEISMAN: You can borrow mine. Take this to the Building Inspector. MR. KATSOULAS: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Say this garage is not here, see where it says, "demo" on here? my MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER WEISMAN: lot coverage is." Take them -- do you have us right now that it's 24.8 percent and that when you put on your addition it's gonna be 25.5 percent. That's not what this plan says. So if they can write -- if this plan is correct, they have to rewrite this Notice of Disapproval to reflect what this -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need a copy of the new Notice of Disapproval. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- is because one of the variances is gonna go away. You may not be PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 Right. Just say, "tell me what Because they're telling 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 over lot coverage. MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER WEISMAN: clarified. MEMBER SIMON: See what I mean? Yes. So we have to have this There's another dimension to this, maybe I can clarify it and this will not be solved by the Building Department. On the site plan on the {inaudible) plan it shows that garage, okay, the one that doesn't exist anymore out in the northwest -- uh, southwest. MR. KATSOULAS: Northwest, I think. MEMBER SIMON: It shows it right on this, on the other hand, the calculations immediately below it seem to include -- seem to ignore the garage, which is shown on the picture just three inches away. In other words, the architect's own drawings seem to be inconsistent. MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER SIMON: Could I see those plans? Sure, please. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: you the plan. MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, all the stuff. MR. KATSOULAS: Yes. We're gonna lend we're gonna lend you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 14 MEMBER SIMON: not there anymore, right? MR. KATSOULAS: No. MEMBER SIMON: Then he has this figure, now the question is, why is this here at all. Maybe that needs to be -- maybe these need to be redrawn so that they're not there, to delete that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you take the Notice of Disapproval which presently exists, Mr. Katsoulas, and go over and see if you can resolve this? MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER SIMON: This shows here and that's to exclude what's in here. MEMBER WEISMAN: I think I know why the variance was 24 percent, cause the garage was there. He took it dropped down to 16. MEMBER SIMON: down, that's where it He's got to get that new And that's what I think needs to be clarified by your architect before we can -- MR. KATSOULAS: MEMBER SIMON: Can I take that? Yeah, sure. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 You know -- Here this 16 percent seems 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 20, variance. MEMBER WEISMAN: for the side yard -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: the lot coverage. MEMBER WEISMAN: will go away. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The magic figure is if you're under 20, you don't need that He will need a variance Yeah. No, I mean, -- but the lot coverage CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and that's what we want you to do. That's what we need you to do. MEMBER SIMON: But if this is right, then the Building Department was wrong in calling it on lot coverage. MR. KATSOULAS: (Inaudible). [Not at mike.] CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Take it with you and we'll adjourn this. MR. KATSOULAS: See what I applied for the variance, whatever (inaudible). [Not at mike.] MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, we saw that and that's -- is that a -- we have that in our -- yes. That shows it as -- is this a survey? Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 15 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 16 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 don't know what it is. MR. KATSOULAS: Actually, this is the drawing that -- BOARD ASST.: It's the same as the one that we have except that it's -- MEMBER SIMON: It's not the same as the one that I just gave him. BOARD ASST.: It is. MEMBER SIMON: That's the one to scale 16 percent refers to this, not to that, and that's official. It could be corrected, but the thing is that if the 16 percent is right without that building, then you don't have any problem at all about lot coverage. BOARD ASST.: It eliminates one of the variances that the Building Department is requiring. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, over by North Fork Bank. MR. KATSOULAS: So I should go back there? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, please. See if you can get a Notice of Disapproval, rewrite that one. BOARD ASST.: We'll give you a time to Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reconvene. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nah, let's wait until he comes back. We'll do it -- MEMBER SIMON: He's not gonna wait -- BOARD ASST.: There may be someone else in audience who will return. Do you want a half hour? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. Give him more than that. Give him an hour. MR. KATSOULAS: (Inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: We're not leaving. BOARD ASST.: We'll be here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll adjourn it to 11:30. MEMBER WEISMAN: We'll make that as a motion? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I make it as a motion. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody here that wants to speak in favor or against this application? Seeing no hands, 11:30. Okay. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 18 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6267 - Madeline Droege MEMBER OLIVA: "Request for a Special Exception in accordance with Code Section 280-13B(14) for establishment of an Accessory Bed and Breakfast, as an accessory use in the existing single-family dwelling, with owner-occupancy, for the purpose of lodging (two guest bedrooms) and serving of breakfast for up to ten (10) casual, transient roomers, at 885 Petty's Drive, Orient, a/k/a Lot 6 on the filed Map of Petty's Bight; CTM Parcel #1000- 14-2-24." MEMBER OLIVA: Mr. Lenhart. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just state your name for the record, please. MR. MARKUM: Fred Markum, Peconic Permit Expediting. MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you? What would you like to ask Fred? MEMBER OLIVA: I would like to ask him, we just have these to scale, but I don't see - - are there windows in these bedrooms? MR. MARKUM: Yes. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: exits? MR. MARKUM: MEMBER OLIVA: Are they up to emergency Yes. Is there any sitting room stay downstairs that the people could sit, before they go up to the bedrooms? MR. MARKUM: Yes. Lots of room. MEMBER OLIVA: Lots of room. It's a big house. I've been there -- I know where it is. They ought to fix the road. Not that road, if they come up Grandview it's not as bad. MR. MARKUM: Right. MEMBER OLIVA: If they come up ?etty's Bight Road it's forget it. MR. MARKUM: Right. MEMBER OLIVA: We went down there yesterday. MR. MARKUM: You need a Hummer. MEMBER OLIVA: Well, we did it in a Toyota. So -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know, I did it. MEMBER OLIVA: I did it. MEMBER WEISMAN: But then we're intrepid. MEMBER OLIVA: And they're able to turn around the cars, they have space for two cars. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2O ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 They're gonna be able to turn around in that space there so they come out. MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Forward. MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: I also noticed on the site plan they have a pool. MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Are the Bed and Breakfast people going to be allowed to use that pool? MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Are they covered with the insurance for that? MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: I don't know how -- (inaudible) cause I want this in the transcript. MR. MARKUM: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a minor little problem here. We need the applicant here to testify that she lives in this house permanently and we need a copy of her license MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and we do PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 apologize about this. This most recently came up, okay, in a prior hearing in Mattituck and we've been asked by members of the Town Board to do this. It is not necessarily couched in the law as it exists right now, Fred. Is she not available today? MR. MARKUM: Right. Well, in that case I'd like to postpone to next month, if that's possible. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do sincerely apologize about this. BOARD ASST.: Well, we did mention it when you filed the application it's always required. We did ask. MR. MARKUM: Sorry. MEMBER OLIVA: The Chairman took the words out of my mouth. Does she live there permanently? MR. MARKUM: Yes, she does. She's a single mom with two daughters that go to Greenport High School. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So -- and we need a copy of her driver's license indicating that she -- it is her permanent address. It could be a PO Box. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, we do. MR. MARKUM: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: May I just ask you to address, while you're here anyway, so we can get as much accomplished today as possible, the two off-site parking spaces. MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: I was there. I attempted to -- there was one car, the garage door was open. There was one car near the garage. I pulled my car in and I flipped around, fiddled around tried to make turns, jack-knifed, it's extremely tight to try and get two cars where you're proposing it on the site is really problematic. They may be able to do it so they don't have to back out and you may be able to pull in so you don't have to back out, but it's going to be a lot of maneuvering. Those proposed spaces are really not -- you can get a car in physically in the square footage that you've got, but to maneuver it in and out is very, very difficult. MR. MARKUM: I've been up there several times, as you may expect, but I never had a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 problem getting out. I mean, two or three cars deep and I problem backing out to -- MEMBER OLIVA: We don't out. it's at least never had a want you to back MR. MARKUM: -- toward the east. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well that's the problem. Backing out, yeah. MEMBER OLIVA: You need to be able to turn around and come out. MEMBER WEISMAN: But when you're at an angle -- you're at quite an angle, actually, to fit the car in and then you really have to do a lot of swinging back toward the garage to back up that way and then drive out. MR. MARKUM: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: It can be solved. I mean, you could, you know, extend the driveway a little bit over toward the grass so that you could have a back up space so you can pull out. You might have to, I mention it because it might have to be, for this proceeding, slightly reconfigured that's all. MR. MARKUM: She also owns the lot opposite her house, so -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, where that split rail fence is? MR. MARKUM: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, well that makes it a lot easier then to -- MR. MARKUM: To the south. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. MR. MARKUM: The lot to the south she owns so maybe something -- MEMBER OLIVA: She has chairs over there, etc. She has chairs and like a little patio type of thing over on the MR. MARKUM: I'm not something her kids did or other lot. sure if that's something. MEMBER OLIVA: Well, whatever. It's not important. But also make sure that there's those ropes in case of an emergency exit on the windows, so they can just flip it and climb down because that is a very big house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Drop down ladders. MR. MARKUM: From the bedrooms? MEMBER OLIVA: Yes. MR. MARKUM: We were before the Trustees last night and we were granted a permit by the Trustees to build a stairway from the deck Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 going down toward the garage along the side of the house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wonderful. MEMBER WEISMAN: An emergency egress. MR. MARKUM: So that would be an emergency exit. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please don't leave until we close this hearing, there may be other people want to speak on it, excuse me, and Michael hasn't spoken yet. MEMBER SIMON: My question is customarily we inspect the inside of a Bed and Breakfast special permit just to simply eyeball that the changes are made and so on and this has not been scheduled yet as far as I know. So that is and Ruth is the expert on this question. The other question I have is I think you read somewhere that it was up to ten units. MEMBER OLIVA: No, no. Just -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This bedrooms. MR. MARKUM: MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER SIMON: for that. is two Two bedrooms. It's two bedrooms. Two cars is insufficient Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: It will be four. Two for the dwelling and two for the B&B. MEMBER SIMON: That's what I mean. Okay, regarding the inspection, are we going to need to do that, that's my question. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we certainly have the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I would like to do an interior inspection to schedule that when the applicant is available. It's typical that we do do that because it's a part of the interior as opposed to the -- MR. MARKUM: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can do that on a Saturday morning, excuse me again for cutting in on you -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It's alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- any Saturday. It doesn't have to be early in the morning. MR. MARKUM: I can find out. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, can you find out between now and the next hearing? MR. MARKUM: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so let's go on and see if anybody else has any -- PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. MARKUM: Can I just give you a little -- would it be okay if I just give you a little background? MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. MEMBER OLIVA: Sure. MR. MARKUM: Mrs. Droege, as I said, is a single mom and has been raising two daughters that go to Greenport High School. She also owns a property in the city that she -- she's -- Mrs. Droege is a lovely person, but a bit eccentric. BOARD ASST.: We know. MR. MARKUM: I know you know. She started a -- she's very into the environment. MEMBER OLIVA: Environment. MR. MARKUM: And is into healthy eating and that whole sort of way of thinking. She began a -- opened up a raw food bar restaurant in the city. MEMBER OLIVA: Really. MR. MARKUM: Where it's all -- and she's got all kinds of recipes that she's written and she's got a cookbook which is raw food. Her idea was to have her home be a Bed and Breakfast for people who are very committed to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 28 about that whole -- MEMBER OLIVA: Genre. MR. MARKUM: Thank you. my initial thought is I don't And as a -- and imagine it's going to be as if you were, you know, serving steaks and attracting people who wanted a great side of beef. So, you know, I don't see this as -- she's doing this, (A) economic times are difficult, (B) she's committed to this lifestyle. She's very much involved in the lifestyle and this was her idea. She started out, she's got a business plan and she's trying to execute it properly. Therefore, it is sort of a natural extension of what her life is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. You are aware of the letter that's in the file from the Demetriades? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 that lifestyle, the raw food lifestyle. So her idea was to use her restaurant in the city, the raw food bar, to attract people who want to get away from the city, who want to enjoy the lifestyle and the raw food and she could make a raw food breakfast for them and generally relax. I don't personally know much 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. MARKUM: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: It's two letters. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's two letters. MR. MARKUM: I also understand that from the beginning before Mrs. Droege got the property that it was a contentious and difficult building to build because of the different variances that were necessary to build it. It's almost as if it's got a hex on it in the sense that that whole surrounding area has created a very contentious atmosphere with a number of people. MEMBER OLIVA: The neighbors. MR. MARKUM: Right. She's very much individual in her own right and feels as though she wants to be able to do this for economic reasons. Her daughters will be going to college soon. There'll be bedrooms to use and that type of thing. So I think it's a good plan. I think it's a good business plan and I think that given the amount of traffic that she's going to attract I really don't see it being -- I don't see them lining up down the Main Road. MEMBER OLIVA: Don't tell them to come up Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Petty's Bight Road. MR. MARKUM: So anyway that's basically my -- MEMBER OLIVA: I give her credit. (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything that you would like to say regarding the two letters that we received and the other one from Tusi? MR. MARKUM: No, it is what it is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you very much for your presentation. We'll give you an adjourn date in a minute. Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? Ms. Wickham was first. MS. WICKHAM: Good morning. My name is Abigail Wickham of Mattituck and I'm here on behalf of Eva Mallace who is also here and her family who own the property immediately to the east of this property. I'd like to go over several different things. The first is that the applicant mentioned application for stairs, which did appear before the Trustees last night, but the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Building Department has not received an application for it and I think that they're gonna need to come back on that because the stairs are within 100 feet of the bluff and outside of the existing house line. So I think that there is something missing from this application right off the bat and I'd like to ask the applicant to address that. The second thing is that the ZBA in Appeal #3849, quite a number of years ago, granted extensive variances in order to just be able to build this house. The ZBA decision clearly said it was for a one-family dwelling. It didn't say anything about it being able to be used as a Bed and Breakfast. So I question whether that decision limits the ability of this applicant to apply for this. Also, there's no hex on this property. The fact is that the property is extremely over built already. Maybe there are other things going on in the neighborhood, but if you look at the very small triangle, which you have in your file of the (inaudible) survey, it's very faint, but it shows that the legal building envelope on this lot is very, very Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 tiny and when they were granted permission years ago to get so close to the -- so intrude so far into the bluff setback jurisdiction they basically tripled the building envelope with the current house. It's a two-story house, four bedrooms. There also is a notation on the property card that the basement appears to be finished. So there's a lot of usage and impact on what is a very small lot. I don't see any computation on lot coverage and I think that that ought to also be questioned. So they're asking you now to basically add an additional use to what is already an extremely nonconforming building on the property, but with a variance. A couple of other things that I think the Board ought to be aware of, you mentioned the condition of the road. It is practically impossible to get up there and I think that's a concern for guests and for emergency access should something happen. Further, it is my understanding that the use of Grand Road by the 17 lots in this subdivision is not permitted. That's a separate subdivision of PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 private roads and I think that they're using those roads because they're not in as bad condition as this subdivision, but they're not allowed to do that. I was advised by another property owner in this subdivision that the association that has the 17 lots in this development recently or not too long ago tried to get road improvements and it was this owner who owns three of the lots in that subdivision that said no, they didn't want the roads improved. So that's why they're in such bad shape. Some of the pot holes are over a foot deep and they're very, very difficult so I think that has to be a major concern in the Board before they grant a Bed and Breakfast here. The other question that I have and I'm going fast cause I know you have a big agenda, but I have a lot too. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We appreciate that. MS. WICKHAM: Is the Notice of Disapproval refers to two guest bedrooms -- not the Notice, the Legal Notice refers to two guest bedrooms with the ability to have ten transient guests for breakfast and I don't PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 think that that's the way that a Bed and Breakfast Code reads. The definition of Bed and Breakfast in 280-4 says the renting of not more than 5 rooms. Well, they're going for 2, etc. for lodging and serving of breakfast to not more than ten casual and transient roomers, R-O-O-M-E-R-S. That implies to me that the people that have breakfast there have to be rooming there and if you have two bedrooms you can't have ten people. The ten people in the definition refers to the fact that you have 5 bedrooms. If you have 5 bedrooms, then you could have 10 guests. Furthermore, they're only providing for two parking spaces. So I think that were you to grant this decision, you would have to clearly limit the number of people. Also -- well I'm not gonna even address anything more on the deck stairway because that's not before you today, but I think it has to be. If we're coming back I'd like to talk about that another time. The parking, you mentioned, is a problem not only in terms of maneuverability, but it is right smack up against our client's Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 property line and I think that's wrong. I think that's inconsiderate. I don't think it is appropriate when they're dramatically increasing the usage of this property to then put all the parking right up on her line without any screening or anything to buffer that usage. I also would like to -- it was interesting to me that if she is running a business in the city to what extent is she going to be an owner/occupant of this -- MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MS. WICKHA-M: -- property. I think that has to be very carefully explored. MEMBER OLIVA: Agree with you. MS. WICKH~LM: There is a sauna that was built without any permits whatsoever right on the bluff. I'd like the Board to inquire about that because I believe there was an order to remedy violation a number of years ago and that never went anywhere and it clearly has no permits. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Wickham, could you give us, as we have discussed in prior hearings about two months ago, the suggestion PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 of the type of buffering your client would be interested in, assuming -- MS. WICKHAM: Well, we're objecting to the Bed and Breakfast. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I understand that. MS. WICKHAM: But assuming there were buffering, it would have to be heavy evergreen screening of a sufficient height to actually screen, I would say, probably 6- or 8-foot trees, 4-foot on center. MEMBER OLIVA: It's a high spot there, too, if the wind is coming from the -- MS. WICKHkM: MEMBER OLIVA: maintain. MS. WICKH~LM: Yeah. That would be difficult to It is open in terms of sunlight. I think they would get enough light there, there's not a shading problem. Then the other thing I would like to do just quickly is go back to the special exception legislation, 280-139, where the Town Board in allowing a Bed and Breakfast in the first place in a residential zone specifically said that the impact that that would have Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 requires an individual case by case review of each application to ensure compatibility with community character, land use patterns and the natural environment. So it's not a given that they have a right to a Bed and Breakfast. You have to be able to determine that this is the right spot for it. Here you have a private neighborhood. You're not on the Main Road, you're not on Indian Neck Lane or somewhere there is a lot of traffic already. This is not only a private neighborhood and a small community, but it is on a very -- it's on a private road, which is in total disrepair. I think it would have a tremendous negative impact on property values, on traffic, on noise, on light, all of those things that you're required under the special exception legislation to look at, on parking and the question really becomes down to in addition whether the plot area and I'm quoting from the code "is sufficient or the use is reasonable", particularly in considering the fact that it could be expanded at some point. So I think the question is whether this Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 is the right spot for this in the first place. Whether this property is in a sequestered neighborhood where you shouldn't be having what is essentially a commercial use in the first place on a lot that's already overbuilt. So that's what I would like to ask you to consider when you're deliberating on this. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MS. WICKH~: Thank you. MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir? Oh, you have a question. MEMBER SIMON: I just want to ask, we have all this on transcript, but if you have any written form of your comments -- MS. WICKHAM: comments. MEMBER SIMON: I can summarize my I think it would be very helpful to us if we had a hard copy of that and -- MS. WICKHAM: MEMBER SIMON: Okay. -- we would hope that if the hearing is closed today, but I guess it won't be anyway, it will be subject to receipt of that -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. WICKHAM: summary. MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER SIMON: I can give you a bullet That would be helpful. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. That gentleman is next. MR. AZARO: Andrew Azaro, I live at 250 Petty's Drive. I want to discuss the road and you were out there so you know about it. MEMBER OLIVA: We know. MR. AZARO: [Moved away from mike] Now here's a picture of -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to show it to everybody here. You only showed it to me. Let us borrow it for a minute. MR. AZARO: Sure. MEMBER OLIVA: I know. We were there yesterday. MR. AZARO: Okay, this is Bight Road. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This road; is that correct? MR. AZARO: A private road. is a private Petty's Drive is one development. Grandview Drive is the adjoining development. Now, the part I'm speaking about now is for a neighbor on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Grandview Drive who is in contention is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: sir? MR. AZARO: Bob Gasker. or 580 Grandview Drive and he Florida now. His What's his name, I think it's 560 takes care of Grandview Drive. The increased traffic on his road because this road is unpassable will mean more debris on a road, which he's responsible for and, our neighbor, I don't know if you're aware of it, tried to fill in these holes once before which she objected to. She said if you fill those holes in and somebody has an accident after it's filled in they're like being on the side of the person who possibly gets hurt, which is outlandish, and I would also like to -- I wasn't gonna bring it up, but I would like to rebut his comment about her being eccentric. The eccentricity is caused by her going through the whole area with a camera and taking pictures of anybody who prunes shrubs or cuts back trees growing onto the road, which endangers the pedestrians and cars. So all the eccentricity is caused by her and that's it. Thank you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. Ma'am? Thank you for your patience. Just state your name for the record, please. MS. MALLACE: Eva Mallace. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MS. MALLACE: I'm just gonna read a couple of comments I've written. I'm Eva Mallace, I'm speaking for my mother Irene Mallace, Paris Mallace and myself. We own the property adjoining Mrs. Droege on the eastern side. We believe that her request for special exception of the zoning for this purpose of establishing a Bed and Breakfast gives us great concern. My family has owned the property for over 26 years. It is located in a lovely very quiet residential neighborhood. We believe that it's completely inappropriate to grant this permission for a Bed and Breakfast. It will most certainly alter the residential character of the neighborhood diminishing the quality of life for all those who live there and it will undoubtedly negatively impact the property values of the properties that adjoin Mrs. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Droege. In the past she's had -- we've witnessed on several occasions nude people prancing about the deck and on the beach. My sister and I have small children they've grown since then, but it's a concern that we've always had. Prior to the construction of this house, the prior owner did request and receive a variance, which I know Gail Wickham had also mentioned, substantially increasing the usage of the property. It is a small irregularly shaped piece of property and we believe that the Zoning Board has already granted tremendous leniency and that additionally leniency would be really excessive an inappropriate. Also, there is the fact that we're really wondering whether this is really the backdoor into establishing a multiple dwelling property. We are not in the position, nor do we want to be put in the position to police this situation. In conclusion, I would just like to ask the Board to please seriously consider the negative implications of granting PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Dadourian. west of Ms. but such permission which are significant and will completely alter this neighborhood. I don't believe that is the intention of anyone in the Town of Southold, which I think strives very hard to maintain a very quiet picturesque environment. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Sir? In the back. MR. DADOURIAN: My name is Greg I own the property directly to the Droege. It's a vacant property, Right. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. DADOURIAN: -- my wife and I are in the process of building there. I'm just gonna read -- a single-family house on that property. We have three very young children. My kids are 10, 8 and 4 and we're looking forward to enjoying this new house with our kids. The thought of having transient roomers next door to us while our children freely play in our backyard is unsettling. We chose this property as the site of our house because it is in a well-established peaceful community Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 with single-family homes. Having a Bed and Breakfast for transient visitors directly next door to us violates our sense of security and peacefulness. In addition, I also believe that having an establishment in a primarily single-family residence community will adversely impact the value of all of our properties. I also want to make one other point that if this is granted and she were to move, maybe this is a question, the people who purchase this property, will they be allowed to use it as a CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. MEMBER OLIVA: No. MR. DADOURIAN: No. MEMBER OLIVA: It does not go with the land. MR. DADOURIAN: Okay. That's all. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much. Yes, ma'am? MS. ZURL: My name is Katherine Zurl. I reside at 250 Petty's Drive. My concern is if Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 this should go through who assumes responsibility if somebody gets hurt or there's an accident on these roads? Also, she mentioned raw foods, will that have anything to do with the Town if this is permitted if somebody gets sick? And also the dwelling, multiple-use dwelling, is there any limits like if she's looking for two rooms and she says up to ten people so there possibly could be a lot of cars there with the parking. She also owns south of her property two more lots, could she eventually this could be expanded into there and expand her raw food business? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. Only for that site itself. MS. ZURL: And -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we need to address this road for one second. BOARD ASST.: I need to ask this nice lady for the spelling of your last name, please. MS. ZURL: Z-U-R-L. BOARD ASST.: Z-U-R-L, thank you very much. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have this application by original jurisdiction that does not require a Notice of Disapproval from the Building Inspector. We are aware of what Petty's Bight Road looks like. This application was not denied by the Building Inspector for a 280A, which is a road improvement situation that would make the road accessible 24/7 by emergency vehicles, by everybody living there and emergency vehicles. We have not significantly addressed the issue of 280A in special permits; however, it does specifically fall within the category and I will instruct -- I will ask the Board if they want to do that during this hearing process and so we'll see what happens. We have done it before, not necessarily on special permits, but in other cases. The second thing I like to tell everybody is that this is a special permit application. This application if, in fact, it was granted and if, in fact, there was a particular problem with it, this Board has removed that special permit application status by public hearings on any special permit that there are PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 specific problems with. To date, for the 28 years, 28-1/2 years I've been on this Board we've only done one. Okay, it was not a Bed and Breakfast, alright. Uniquely this Board has not significantly had complaints regarding Bed and Breakfasts, okay, I'm just mentioning that to you and that's just my observation. I'm not speaking for -- I did say the Board, but I'm speaking for my own personal situations regarding this. It appears that the majority of them that I have been involved with basically have really taken care of themselves. There is a rather large association in town that kind of deals with these and actually most of them have worked out very nicely and that's the story. So that's just my opinion on the whole situation and, notwithstanding that fact, I just wanted you to be aware of that. Is there anybody else who would like to speak? This hearing is going to be adjourned to the May meeting -- BOARD ASST.: May 28th, that's a Thursday at 1:15 in the afternoon. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:15, so we adjourn PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 to May 28. MR. MARKUM: Excuse me. Just to be clear, do you want her here or can I bring a copy of her license with that address on it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We really need her here. MR. MARKUM: Okay fine. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, and a copy of her license. MR. MARKUM: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. MARKUM: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much everybody. I make a motion adjourning the hearing to May 28th at 1:15. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING %6242 - Robert and Beth Anello MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for Variances under Sections 280-124, 280-122 and ZBA Code Interpretation under R. Walz %5039, based on the Building Inspector's amended October 29, 2008 Notice of Disapproval. New construction is proposed as additions and alterations to the existing single-family dwelling at less than the code- required minimum concerning: {1) side yard less than 10 feet, (2) total side yards less than 25 feet. In addition a Variance is requested for lot coverage exceeding the code limitation of 20% on this nonconforming 6,825 square foot lot located at 1980 Leeton Drive, Southold, adjacent to the Long Island Sound." Let me just -- good morning, Pat. MRS. MOORE: Good morning. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just ask a few questions before you start your presentation. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Am I correct that there are five variances before us? MRS. MOORE: We -- MEMBER WEISMAN: One is for the as-built Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 deck, right, and 7-foot rear yard setback when the code requires 35. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Two with lot coverage, 33.8 percent. The code requires 20. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: The third is for a second story addition, which is really a roof. MRS. MOORE: Exactly -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You're not adding any other -- MRS. MOORE: -- that's what is really what we came in for. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: The others became ancillary. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. The fourth is the total side yard setback of 17.6 feet. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: And a fifth is proposed construction has a 7.7 foot side yard from the ordinary high water mark. The code requires 100 feet. MRS. MOORE: That sounds like the -- well, yeah it's the same as-built deck. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it looks like Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 that. So you want to legalize the -- well the Walz, but you also want to legalize the as- built hot tub. MRS. MOORE: Yes, the hot tub. MEMBER WEISMAN: And the at-grade wooden boardwalk and decks; right? MRS. MOORE: Those are what are 7.7. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MRS. MOORE: Those are -- So there's kind of overlap of -- MEMBER WEISMAN: There's some overlapping here. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. You are also changing an interior and exterior staircases, exterior from the first to the second floor. There's an exterior and an interior staircase. I don't think those are the subject of the variances -- MRS. MOORE: No. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but that is part of the thing. MRS. MOORE: Part of it. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. You are -- let me be correct, you are not adding to the current PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 33.8 percent lot coverage that's what's there right now. MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Well, let me -- let's hear what you have to say. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're welcome. MRS. MOORE: We are, as you know, all of you are familiar, I'm sure, with Leeton Drive. Leeton Drive is a very old established community that is bulkheaded and all the lots are very small. All, but one, are comparable in size to this parcel. The houses over the years were -- if they had to be renovated, and I know that the neighbor to the east, excuse me, yes, to the east was recently here before the Board for similar variances and what has triggered the move for variances on any remodeling of these homes is that the flood zone has changed over time and while the flood zone -- we are conforming as a matter of your finished floor elevation, the Building Department through the State Code now requires 2 feet above the finished floor elevation. So what has happened is in this instance PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 my client, as you saw in the variance that you granted in the house to the east, my client actually wants to keep this house small, not add any additional living space square footage lot coverage living area. He merely wants to do some, well, it's repairing for the most part the roof structure because of its age and he's had -- Mr. and Mrs. Anello have had problems with the roof. There's been leaking and any structural changes requiring a permit are triggering the need, (1) for variances because it -- the roof changes are changing the pitch of the roof in order to solve the drainage issues that are existing on the existing roof, and also, when you apply for a building permit which is needed for structural alterations, the Building Department sends you here for variances on what is as-built. Everything is existing. When we speak in terms of the alterations to the house I think they're pretty clear. I have Angel Chorno here if you have any specific questions about the structural alterations. Again, it's roof alterations and some cosmetic changes to the fagade a window PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 here and so on, but again, no square footage change. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait. This is a two-story house (inaudible)? MRS. MOORE: Well, it is. Right now, it's two stories with permits because the first floor is living space. Our problem and this is gonna be -- we're somewhat, going to be, when we get the variances presumably granted from you we will have to go back to the Building Department and start doing a ala carte calculation because we cannot exceed 50 percent of the value of the existing structure in alterations. So we are -- our roof line change, our structural changes we agreed with Mike that what we are going to do is identify all the structural repairs that have to be done on the house and get figures, cost figures for it and then, again ala carte, identify what is our maximum expenditure that we can make without eliminating our first floor. So the long answer is we have existing living space on the first floor. We want to keep the existing living space on the first Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 floor, that is primarily where they live most of the time, believe it or not, the kitchen, there's a bathroom and their bedroom on the first floor and then you go upstairs and then there is the living, dining room and the bathroom. There's a bathroom on the second floor and that space everything is staying the same. Our concern is that if our expenditures exceed that 50-percent-rule the Building Department is going to force us to abolish the first floor living space and we will -- my client definitely doesn't want to come back and build a second -- the same living space above the second, what is now our second floor, and essentially create the kind of structure that is the house right to the east. What happened to the home to the east of this one that got the variances they were -- the value of their renovations exceeded that percentage and they were forced to bring the whole house into conformity with FEMA so their first floor became non-usable space. We don't want to do that. We're actually trying our hardest to keep everything exactly as it is. So there is living space on the first floor PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 and you go up the steps and there's living space on the second floor. It is normal two- story house and anywhere in this community it would be fine, except when it is on the water and you have FEMA issues to contend with. So -- I see questions on your face. I don't know if you're about to ask me something or if I wasn't clear enough. MEMBER SIMON: I'll wait my turn. MRS. MOORE: What's that? Oh, you're going to wait your turn. Okay. Should I continue or do you have questions on that? MEMBER SIMON: Continue, please. MRS. MOORE: Alright, what we are also getting variances for again is an opportunity to clean up the old file. This house is as it was when he purchased the property. The decking that is right to the bulkhead is a boardwalk. This community is essentially built on -- it's all sand and the bulkhead brings the grade up that the house is on and it protects the property. It's been there for, you know, many, many years. The whole community has been there for many years. The Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 decking, I asked my client early on, well, could we eliminate the decking that goes to the bulkhead. The decking is a boardwalk and it goes to the bulkhead. We cannot replace that decking with pavers because the sand in that area tends to cave in. So it's not a very stable material behind the bulkhead and the pressure that pavers would cause causes instability to the pavers. So the decking, the wood walkway as a boardwalk protects and creates essentially what is the only backyard before you get to the water. This is the same occurrence if you're on the property and you look to the west it's identical. The house to the other side, I don't really know what is proposed for the house to the east, quite frankly, but I do know what's there on the west and it is much larger. It's a boardwalk that encompasses for the most part the whole rear yard. That is the standard way of this area being used and constructed. It is a very typical kind of shore community with boardwalks instead of grass and pavers, it's boardwalk. The hot tub is presently there it's on PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 top of a boardwalk area that's actually somewhat tucked into the stairway. It's an amenity that they enjoy and I know Mrs. Anello has had surgery and other physical problems so it is just a good way of some physical therapy for her. Again, it's been there for years and at the time when it was added nobody realized that it needed its own permit and would have required permits from Trustees and Zoning Board. By the way, we did go to the Trustees. We walked -- the Trustees walked the property, inspected it. They really -- they had no issues, no concerns here because everything is stable and well established and they actually left the hearing open given the fact that if the Board, you know, when the Board approves the roof alterations we just wanted to be sure that the Building Department, when we come back, again, to the Building Department and we know, again, ala carte what our improvements are gonna be we kind of close out the permit with the Trustees because they recognized that our alternative would be to build a large two- story on stilts as the house to the east. So we, again, do not want that option, but we may PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 be forced to do it. Our goal here is to keep the house small. They have -- it's just the two of them, they're very comfortable in the house and really don't need much more. So, for once, you're getting somebody begging to please don't make us do more, we want to keep everything small. MEMBER WEISMAN: No objection. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wish you could cut the lot coverage down, but when I get to that I'll -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we could -- my client says, well, we could get rid of the shed, but the shed is our only garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As you know, you need to get access and I'll discuss that when it's my turn. Go ahead, Leslie. MRS. MOORE: Okay, go ahead. I think I've addressed most of the issues. I'd rather address your specific concerns. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie? MEMBER WEISMAN: rest of you go ahead. up questions. Uh, well let me let the I may have some follow- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER OLIVA: What sort the house on? MRS. MOORE: This is foundation. MEMBER OLIVA: Are raise the house because of foundation is -- a cinderblock you gonna have to of FEMA? MRS. MOORE: No. That's our goal, that is precisely why we're here with just the roof alteration and as I mentioned -- MEMBER OLIVA: As long as you don't spend too much. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. We have to keep the dollar value below that 50-percent threshold. We're optimistic because really we're doing a roof alteration. One of the other things that you mentioned and I want to say, my client, when he bought the house, there is a stairway that the prior owners, I believe, had used this as a two-family house just from the way it looks, They have only one kitchen, somewhat separated space. not the way it is. but it was There may have been a family member that the families had the two -- like the mother/daughter type of situation. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: They shared it. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. It's a single-family house. The staircase that goes up to the main second floor, an interior staircase, when the architect and I went in there we both were shocked at this access way. It really is so bad that your mother -- it's a little scary for Mr. Anello's mother to come in and get access upstairs because it literally, you're going up a set of stairs where the ceiling is -- there are no heights, nothing is conforming. One of the things that we hoped to do in this project is actually to provide a staircase, interior staircase that corrects that State Code issue. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MRS. MOORE: Again, we would not have to do a thing, but one of the proposals, one of the incorporation of our expenditures is to make a correction. I think we're okay, I don't think, under FEMA, a correction of a State Code violation, is an issue. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not a problem. MRS. MOORE: So -- but again that's one of the ala carte -- one of the corrections, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 remediations that we're proposing here. MEMBER WEISMAN: So just to reiterate, you're going to really be repairing, doing structural repairs, replacing in kind -- MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: staircase, interior staircase is not an -- the exterior renovation of the issue before us. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: The wood boardwalk, wood decking -- MRS. MOORE: Well, the wood deck is actually in very good shape. It just needs to be included in a variance permit because -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Through the lot coverage or what? MRS. MOORE: Through the lot coverage, exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Because when it was constructed in the '80s, it may have not been considered lot coverage or permit issues because it's boardwalk. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's even building at grade and it's a at grade, yes. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: But today -- it's just the recordkeeping from that period is so bad and this is an opportunity to just put everything on a plan and make it -- and clean up the history. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. So I know you had a variance for the shed a while back, which includes the lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: So what we're really looking at is legalizing the hot tub. MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Which is a temporary accessory structure. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: The roof alterations, which is additions and alterations in a nonconforming side yard and lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, it down in a sense to three. it four, I guess. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: it five. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we could whittle Walz would make That actually makes I originally saw Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 it as five, but then it was -- MRS. MOORE: But they're somewhat overlapping. MEMBER WEISMAN: But they do overlap. I'm just trying to figure out how to write this, that's all. I just want to make sure that we get this addressed. Alright, you are not changing any setbacks. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're not increasing any lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Nope. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Alright. MRS. MOORE: Nope, just make sure I hadn't missed something, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: access to the front yard, yard, okay, the water. Okay, my concern is which is the rear MRS. MOORE: To the waterfront. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the water side. Why can't the wood walkway be replaced by pavers on the side of the house? MRS. MOORE: Actually, that we can. That's about the only area that is not a problem. We have the brick in the front and Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Sewice (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 my client, I apologize, my client did mention that the wood walkway on the side of the westerly side that's 9.3. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm? MRS. MOORE: Again the wood walkway is at grade so it doesn't impact access to emergency vehicle access, which you know we can go there whether it's made of wood or pavers. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: Yes, but certainly we could replace that with -- replace that walkway, but once you get to the rear yard in that decking area in the back -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The brick? MRS. MOORE: No, the waterfront side, I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh the waterfront, yes. MRS. MOORE: You're calling it the front. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're gonna have an issue with the LWRP, which you're aware of. MRS. MOORE: I am, but again that is -- we are not making any changes to the structure and that's where the LWR? may not have realized it when they came back with their PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 recommendation. It is preexisting and, in fact, I think the LWRP has an exception for preexisting alterations. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you need to address that with Mark Terry. MRS. MOORE: Okay, I will submit something in writing, but whether it is or it isn't, you have -- we are making the structure more consistent in the sense that we are correcting State Code issues and you know safety issues. I don't know how much more you can make -- it's an existing house. We are not moving it, we're not changing it. That's why LWRP to me seems a little -- MEMBER OLIVA: Redundant. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, yeah. maybe. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: here's the problem. If we Misapplied, Okay, well but see close this hearing and there is an issue that, whichever way it goes, okay, whichever way Mark Terry deals with it, if he says no it still stands, then you may have to take the deck out. Alright -- MRS. MOORE: Which deck? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The one adjacent to PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the bulkhead. MRS. MOORE: the LWRP. The LWRP -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, MEMBER WEISMAN: Not the MRS. MOORE: Okay. It's CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you're misreading no, it's -- (inaudible) -- not up to him. It's the walkway, okay, is what it is. about a 15 percent -- buffer. Okay. MRS. MOORE: non-turf buffer. Okay, we're talking a 15-foot non-turf Well, actually decking is a In fact, some of the bulkheads that are built on the Trustees, you know, they reviewed at the Trustees that the bulkheading they have like little platforms behind the bulkhead provide for access. It's non-turf -- it is non-turf. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that. We had this discussion way out on Bay Avenue in Orient some time ago, probably four or five years ago, right at the end of Bay Avenue and we clearly never stated if that was non-turf or not non-turf. So now we need to discuss this, okay, because it's going to -- if we can lessen lot coverage, we need to do it, okay. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Well, that's -- I think that the only place I can lessen lot coverage is on the walkway on the west side of the property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I -- for some reason when I looked at this, I seem to always go on a rainy day, not that we haven't had any rain recently, how high is that wood retaining wall on the west side of that brick patio? MRS. MOORE: This one? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it's showing MRS. MOORE: Oh, it's -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the road MRS. MOORE: I think it's a this thing? MEMBER WEISMAN: side. landscape -- Yeah, it's a landscape CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: over it if you needed to? MRS. MOORE: Oh yeah. curb with railroad ties. It's a landscape -- a little elevated. So you could drive Yeah, it's like a MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, there's no Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 impediment to access. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So how would we get pass the shed if we need to go past the shed? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that 9 feet is clear, unobstructed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you drive over the brick? MRS. MOORE: Sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: You drive over the brick, you drive over the wood, you know, if it gets damaged you replace the -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: there any other place that it's a boardwalk. So Mr. Anello, is you can foresee that we can reduce lot coverage by placing pavers here as opposed to -- or brick? MR. ANELLO: The wood walkway going up to the front -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Oh no. On the west side? To the gravel driveway there's, see the wood walkway? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: I didn't realize that was what -- where it says next to the landscape PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 ties. CHAIRMAN MRS. MOORE: a boardwalk right MR. ANELLO: GOEHRINGER: Yeah. That wood walkway is, again, now, it could be pavers. Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That could be pavers. MRS. MOORE: Sure. MR. ANELLO: That could be pavers and this could be pavers along the side. MEMBER WEISMAN: The side yard. MR. ANELLO: MRS. MOORE: the house. The side yard. The side yard, right, along CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: the calculations MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: would help. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: Pat, bullet out the points you LWRP reply that, you know, Would you give us on that? Sure. Of course. Or even a rough diagram Yeah. if you could just just made about the relative to non- turf buffer and it's simply replacement without additional impacts and, of course, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 gutters and leaders and all that. MRS. MOORE: Great. Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a drywell? MRS. MOORE: and leaders. MR. ANELLO: MRS. MOORE: He'll have to have gutters Yeah. The funny thing is the entire property is sand, better drainage right do creating a -- MEMBER WEISMAN: so you actually have into the sand than you Drywell. Yeah. MRS. MOORE: -- containment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, since you're putting the pavers in, you can put the drywells on that side. MRS. MOORE: Well, pavers are gonna be pervious. I mean, they're still not -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I mean, but I'm saying you're taking out a wood walkway, you can put the drywells underneath that. MRS. MOORE: Under the pavers? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Under -- on top -- No, you can put the pavers on top of the drywells. MR. ANELLO: Right. Right here. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: That's okay with me. What I'm saying is that drywells are a structure, whereas the sand is a giant drywell. I mean, we have an entire property that's essentially a giant sand -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that. It was just brought to my attention that the pavers are still lot coverage. I don't honestly believe that -- BOARD ASST.: If you're above ground. MRS. MOORE: No, this is on grade. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want them on grade. BOARD ASST.: If they're on top of the -- okay, if you're on top of the drywells. MRS. MOORE: Oh, if it's on a drywell? BOARD ASST.: Yeah, would it still be at grade? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: grade. MRS. MOORE: No, no, No. They' 11 be at it's still -- no, no, we're not -- they'll still be at grade. MEMBER WEISMAN: These -- the drywell has not been addressed in the Notice of Disapproval or something like that, but in -- Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the law. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but think in this case Pat's right, an excellent drainage for water. still part of the fact is, I sand is such I mean, if part of these renovations in order to maintain the size of this house have to do with cost, I'd like to see them have the opportunity to avoid any additional cost. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not sure that site maintenance is part of that cost. We're talking house structure -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Structure only? Is that how it's calculated? I don't know. MRS. MOORE: Typically, it is structure. I don't -- I honestly don't know -- I've never been presented with that issue whether drainage structures are considered part of the ala carte cost. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cost. I'm (inaudible) do it anyway. MRS. MOORE: I don't know that it's even something that you have to address in your decision because we'll have to comply with the stormwater -- Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I don't think we need to address it. MRS. MOORE: -- requirements and if the Building Department is satisfied with us -- MEMBER WEISMAN: The only way we'd have to address it is if it comes up in LWRP. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, and I don't remeraber that being listed. MEMBER WEISMAN: We may have the LWRP. MRS. MOORE: just gotten it. I just got it today. Today. I have to read MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: I read it quickly. I know That that the issues were setbacks mostly. was -- which is what I expected. It's inconsistent with respect to setbacks, but again if you're not making structural changes, typically, LWRP is not triggered, but I'll confirm that and I will put it in writing. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, good. MRS. MOORE: It will ultimately be at your decision whether our wood walkway replacements to reduce existing lot coverage, cause right now it's an existing lot coverage, PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 is sufficient mitigation for LWRP. I think it can be. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the question is before I leave you and go on to Michael -- MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- you're going to discuss this with Mark Terry? MRS. MOORE: I will, yes. BOARD ASST.: I wanted to add one little cormment that I had a conversation with Mark. MRS. MOORE: Oh okay. BOARD ASST.: And he has in the LWRP that the deck is proposed because on the plans it says as-built and the Building Department had indicated that some of that deck area has no permit, they're not legal. When they're as- built, they are proposed. MRS. MOORE: Okay. That's probably why - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the issue here is does 15 feet of that deck stay or does it get cut back 15 feet from the bulkhead for LWRP? MRS. MOORE: Well, here's a point. We were at the Trustees who always deal with the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 non-turf that seems to be standard requirement. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: kind of their Right. MRS. MOORE: That was not an issue here and, again, I've seen pebbles, non-turf, pebbles, even wood walkways at grade behind bulkheads because again sometimes the bulkheads you need access around the bulkhead. If you're a boater and your boat is coming on to the bulkhead you often times have a small bulkhead that is kind of a lip back and the DEC actually allows that. So I've seen it. Now, whether or not anybody's actually identified it as non-turf, I can't tell you, but I will certainly -- I'll ask anybody you want. I mean non-turf is non-turf. Turf is grass. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need you to ask Mark Terry, he's the one who wrote it. MRS. MOORE: I'll ask Mark Terry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. BOARD ASST.: I believe they're all dealing with it as a structure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then I need you to send us a letter regarding that. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: That's fine. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we know what the story is. MEMBER OLIVA: The bulkhead is in good condition. MRS. MOORE: Oh yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it's in very good condition. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: Some of the things that provoked facial expressions that made you think I had a lot answered. MRS. MOORE: MEMBER SIMON: of questions have been Oh good. I've done my job. My question about what counts as a non-turf buffer well a structure is, one would assume, not counted as a non- turf buffer, although by some reading of the word it might be. So that's why it's worth finding out from Mark about that. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: The other thing is that something that puzzled me before which was answered has to do with the statement on the Notice of Disapproval is the second story PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 addition. I take it what that means is the addition to the second story because usually when people say second story addition it's a - MRS. MOORE: It's a full story. MEMBER SIMON: Okay and I think that's the kind of thing that probably ought to be tightened up a little bit. I'm even wondering and should explore this out as there would be a stage in which the applicant would have the opportunity to look at the Notice of Disapproval before it is circulated to invite the Building Department to try to make it more accurate and less misleading and that's the aegis of the client I would think. MRS. MOORE: Well, that is my job and I take blame for not interpreting it -- MEMBER SIMON: No. It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of going back to the Building Department and asking them, could you put this in a way so that somebody else wouldn't have to interpret it so imaginatively. MRS. MOORE: Right. Well, they have the same plans as you have in your possession -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: Right. MRS. MOORE: -- and sometimes I think the Building Department, in a sense or what I've observed is sometimes don't say the extreme, the most -- MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MOORE: what you think it MEMBER SIMON: they'll take is -- I but the interpretation, Okay, I agree. Yeah, to get you guys to say is. I'm suggesting is that it might be in the applicant's interest to help the Building Department make our job less difficult, by going back to them and saying, I have a problem understanding this and what do you think the ZBA is gonna make of it. They'll say, yes, you're right we just need to retract that sentence. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, should you be recalculating reduced lot coverage based on pavers, it might be useful then to go back to get an amended Notice of Disapproval with a reduced lot coverage and a slightly different wording about the second story alterations to the roof line rather than an addition to the second floor just so that when I write this PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8O ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 there's more of a relationship between the plans before me, which do not have a second story habitable space addition. The only addition to the building, really, is the interior staircase improvement, which is not an addition, and the repair of the second -- of the exterior stair, which is not an addition. There really are no additions. MRS. MOORE: No. MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's a change in the roof pitch, in the roof line. MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. He just reminded me of something. Mr. Anello, on the second floor deck that's part of the living space, he wanted to provide a cover, not an enclosure. It isn't going to be enclosed, just a covering, a roof covering over the existing decking. Maybe that's why they -- I'll go back and I'll check. MEMBER WEISMAN: Get that clarified. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's on the roadside, isn't it? MEMBER WEISMAN: No. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I asked why that was Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 necessary and it's very, very hot there on the Sound in the summer. He has a nice dark complexion, but his wife doesn't and they find that whole space just almost unusable in the summer because it's just so intense. The Sound is not, you know, it's a lovely place to -- it's a beautiful place to live and visually gorgeous, but it is a little -- the summertime is hot. So that was also part of our request and I don't know -- BOARD ASST.: It's not on our diagrams, though. MRS. MOORE: drawings. MEMBER SIMON: drawings. BOARD ASST.: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, drawings, yeah. Yeah. BOARD ASST.: Is it? the photograph. MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER SIMON: photograph. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it was on the It's marked on the it was on the Okay. Oh, that's It's the photograph. It's marked on the Oh, the photograph, but also Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 on the -- it should have been on the drawings. BOARD ASST.: It was hand drawn on there? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that's the roadside. BOARD ASST.: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: No, that was the streetside alteration. MEMBER SIMON: It was the east side. MRS. MOORE: No, no. Well -- BOARD ASST.: It's the elevation diagram. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the elevation diagram. MR. ANELLO: That's it right there. That's part of it. BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you. MRS. MOORE: Okay, let me clarify. When you look at the roof -- there's a diagram of the roof. This is the deck right there. So it's extending, it's providing roof coverage over the existing deck. MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh. BOARD ASST.: You have dimensions on there, right, to show that? MRS. MOORE: Uh, well it would be over the existing. BOARD ASST.: What are the dimensions of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the existing deck that has it? MRS. MOORE: Oh, it's right here. BOARD ASST.: Okay. MRS. MOORE: The existing deck on the (inaudible) plan are 12 -- it's on this diagram. There's a whole -- BOARD ASST.: diagram? MRS. MOORE: floor diagram. BOARD ASST.: that? MRS. MOORE: covering over the BOARD ASST.: there? MRS. MOORE: actually on this one, (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: It's on the second floor Yes. The roof is the second With the dimensions for Yes. The dimensions are second floor. You don't have those on It's not here because it's but if you like Have you got a scale ruler to measure that? Have you got a scale ruler with you? MEMBER OLIVA: We have a copy of that. MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a copy. MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible). PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 84 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll just -- I'll go home and measure it with my scale ruler if you want. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is Mr. Chorno. MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you? MR. CHORNO: This is the coverage of the deck. (Inaudible). [Not at mike.] MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible). MR. CHORNO: (Inaudible) here (inaudible) 32 plus the (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Where's the 4? MR. CHORNO: (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, 4 there, okay. MR. CHORNO: (Inaudible). BOARD ASST.: 4 by 4, okay. MR. CHORNO: And that's covered and again if the money can be stretched to do it. BOARD ASST.: that. MEMBER SIMON: Otherwise, you'll eliminate I just have one further question. It's a general one, not (inaudible) to this property, and that has to do with the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 8?8-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 calculations of 50 percent improved. That's value rather than -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: -- cubic feet or square feet. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Now, I don't know -- I assume, am I correct in assuming that they calculated this on the basis of the current value of the property rather than the original value? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, well -- MEMBER SIMON: of an appraisal. MRS. MOORE: They must make some kind Yes, exactly. We actually have an appraisal in our file that provides the value of the existing structure. Plus, there's some look at when the house -- when the structure was built and kind of the quality of materials at the time. So you can generally get a calculation that is, you know, pretty close and you can establish with the Building Department, alright, we'll call this our value of existing structure, between our appraisal and the cost of construction, the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 86 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 period of calculate foot. MR. ANELLO: MRS. MOORE: $125.00. construction at the time, we can that it's worth $125.00 a square Yeah, it was low. It was relatively low, MEMBER SIMON: The reason I ask is I had some work done. About 25 percent of my house was added onto and I misread, luckily we didn't get in trouble, the 50-percent rule because the actual work that was done was more than we paid for the house. MRS. MOORE: Oh, no it's -- in fact, on a waterfront house it's even difficult because but it's the waterfront house has a value, really the land value. MEMBER SIMON: Right, right. top, was right side of this, MRS. MOORE: So that comes right off the you don't use that number. MEMBER SIMON: Right. So that's what I saying, it's the -- MRS. MOORE: It's very tricky. MEMBER SIMON: I'm glad you're on the but I'm saying it's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 something that (inaudible) by the Building Department at some -- MRS. MOORE: Yes, we go hand in hand, assuming you give us the permission for everything and we know where we stand on setbacks, then we -- MEMBER SIMON: Right. Okay. MRS. MOORE: -- still go back to the Building Department and deal with the specifics. MEMBER SIMON: That question was just for my own information. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We should get going on this, please. MRS. MOORE: Yes, just one more point my client just alerted me to. The house to the east that just recently got all the variances in building the large house next door, they have decking that goes right to the bulkhead as well and that was unaffected by their variances. So that's something to just keep in mind that not only is the house to the west built out the exact same way with the decking to the bulkhead, but the house to east had PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 just recently and I would assume got LWRP approval because it's very -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't remember the LWRP on that. I don't mean to cut you off because we need to continue, okay, however I don't know if that decking is legal or not. Okay, so that's -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I will look into it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- you need to address the issue non-turf buffer area. the issue. Okay of decking on MRS. MOORE: I will address that specifically, I understand. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that we have this etched in stone for future situations, okay? Does anybody else need to speak for or against this application? Okay, we're going to close the hearing pending that issue that we just discussed as non-turf buffer. You're going to give us figures for the removal of the wood deck, the wood walkway and the wood walkway on the west side of the house, the wood walkway running perpendicular to the road. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you're going to subtract that from the lot coverage because it's going to be at grade. Okay and that is the only thing we're -- BOARD ASST.: And the amended Notice of Disapproval. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And a possible amended Notice of Disapproval. MRS. MOORE: I'll take all that information to the Building Department. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. And that is it, so I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6270 - Reconvened: Efstathios and Maryann Katsoulas CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're reopening the Katsoulas hearing, which is the first hearing on the agenda. MR. KATSOULAS: Okay, the garage over here is not existing, was not built yet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. KATSOULAS: Original back in 2004 when I applied to do some renovations to do the second story decks and other -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. KATSOULAS: -- alterations to the house, I applied also for a garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. KATSOULAS: And the architect at that time show the garage where it's supposed to be built, but it's not gonna be built. So I went and I spoke to Mr. Verity, Mike Verity. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MR. KATSOULAS: And he told me the square footage, the percentage of this what's shown over here from 24-something -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 24.8? MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah, it increased to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 91 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 25.5, it is correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is correct. MR. KATSOULAS: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, very good. MEMBER SIMON: So where does the 16.6 percent come from that's on the site plan? BOARD ASST.: The architect's number. MEMBER SIMON: There is an inconsistency in the same page on the architect's plan, that's my point is. MR. KATSOULAS: Yeah, I see it, the 16.06. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's why I had originally asked you the question because we want to have the architect -- maybe the thing to do is talk to the architect and say, look - MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, he may just have made a mistake and that could be corrected on there. MR. KATSOULAS: Maybe the Building Department made a mistake. MEMBER SIMON: No. He did the drawing. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, somebody did and we don't want you to get stuck with the problem. MR. KATSOULAS: Alright, so what do you suggest now? MEMBER WEISMAN: I suggest that you talk to the architect and say, look, the building - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And have him fax us a letter or send us a letter. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's good. The Building Inspector says that without the garage the lot coverage is 24.8 and with my proposed addition it will be 25.5; is that correct? MR. KATSOULAS: Yes, that's what the Disapproval -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what the Building Inspector -- MR. KATSOULAS: Right and also the Inspector say we still have to deal with the setback here. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, that's the side yard setback. MR. KATSOULAS: The side yard setback. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine, that we understand. That is easy to see. MR. KATSOULAS: So the only problem is the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: The architect's site plan -- MR. KATSOULAS: Site plan. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- has calculations for lot coverage that are much, much less than what the Notice of Disapproval says. MR. KATSOULAS: Alright, so let's say the architect make a mistake, we go to the Building Department? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, you just have the architect -- we have to approve the drawings you submitted. They have to have accurate information. So he can either change that drawing, it's Auto CAD. He can do it on the computer and print it out as an amended site plan, or he can write us a letter. MEMBER SIMON: unless he corrects MR. KATSOULAS: will address to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. We can't proceed that drawing. Alright, so the letter The lot coverage. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. KATSOULAS: I know, but to the Zoning Board? MEMBER WEISMAN: The Zoning Board of Appeals. BOARD ASST.: You can call me tomorrow if you have any questions. MR. KATSOULAS: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, now that's Mr. -- MR. KATSOULAS: You leant me this. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, that's your plan, isn't it? MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, right. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Keep the Notice of Disapproval. MR. KATSOULAS: Alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. I'll make a motion closing the hearing pending the receipt of the information from the applicant. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6235 - Andrew and Elizabeth Greene CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The notice reads as follows: "{as amended on 3/24/09). Request for a Variance under Code Section 280-14, based on the Building Inspector's March 20, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning an amended application for a building permit to construct an addition (conditioned space) to attach the as-built construction to the dwelling, which as-built construction will be less than the code-required 20 ft. minimum from the side yard. (The applicant withdraw the previous request for an accessory building with non-permitted use.) Location of the Property: 30653 C.R. North Road), Peconic; Ms. Moore? MRS. MOORE: Mr. and Mrs. 48 (a/k/a Middle Road or CTM 73-4-5." Yes. Thank you. Greene are here. We -- I certainly was listening to your comments the last time and I think I know all of you well enough that I don't need it hitting me on the head too hard. What you suggested was that we consider a connecting heated space, which I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 have spoken to the clients. So you understand that's certainly an -- that's always an option to be able to use an accessory building as additional living space. I -- we did ask Mr. Turkleson who is a builder and had worked on the house to give us a proposal of what it costs to do that connection and I'll put it on the record as far as I have his proposal. He gave it to me in multiple, so I'll give you the original and a copy. I'll just keep the - I don't know which is which, but I'll keep the yellow. The white and the pink are identical. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: As you can see that the cost of a heated space is very high. As you know, I explained our reasoning for having that space is so that they can continue to work from home and have room for their three children in the house. This is really going to be difficult for them. I'm trying to do this in such a way so that they have options along the way. The original garage, when it was built as a garage, should have gotten a variance at the time, but that was an error of PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the Building Department with the setback. So the setback -- the garage was built 10 feet from the property line and certainly not their fault or anyone's, it was just oversight by the Building Department applying the wrong setback calculation. It should have been 20 feet. The garage itself needs a variance and what I would ask the Board to do when their writing this variance is to do it in such a way that if they were to choose the option of removing the habitable -- the living space on the second floor, which certainly is an option for them to remove part of the bathroom and partition walls, that's pretty much it, that that option remains with the ability to keep the garage because the garage itself needs the variance. So when you're writing it, please give us a variance for the garage as-built and then should we wish to use the living space if you, obviously, if you don't want to allow living space without the connection then allow us to connect it, as an option ,if we wish to use that living space, keep that living space, PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 which is the proposal before you is the connection, but I don't want to lose the fact that we need the garage as a garage even if we were to empty out, you know, not use the space. That garage needs the variance. And I'm sure you're aware, if you're not I'm letting you know right now, Mr. and Mrs. Greene are not the only ones. I've had almost on a monthly basis people have come to my office and said our living situation has changed. The economy, somebody has lost a job, somebody has to consolidate the mortgage, you know, they're losing the house, they're consolidating. You have family dynamics that are changing dramatically in this country and we are not immune. I have sent a letter to the Town Board in said, Town Board, I think it's time to start looking at living space for family as family living space. Shelter Island allows that. They allow a garage to be used as living space for family purposes, not as a secondary rental, it's not an accessory apartment. They have that option, but nobody's pushing for that option or it certainly was not my push. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 What we want to be able to do is to have the space in accessory buildings that -- in this case, for example, we have no neighbors. The garage is a beautiful, clean, safe space and it could be enjoyed thoroughly. It's a wasted space right now. They are not alone. There are multiple homeowners out here and it seems for somebody who is struggling to earn a living out here and live in this con~raunity to spend almost $60,000.00 to connect it for the purposes of just meeting our Code seems somewhat ridiculous and maybe we've finally reached that point. I know that you don't feel comfortable, based on my experience with this Board, to allow this when the Town Board as a legislative body it's really their responsibility to correct the Code and I'm hoping that over time they'll be enough people, every time I get somebody here, I tell them Town Board meets every other Tuesday. Go to the Town Board meeting, you have an opportunity to speak, make yourself known because, you know, it's not just one family, it's multiple families and I really feel PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 terrible for them sending them away, but that's where we are. So with this situation, as I said, I want them to have options. If, magically, the Town Board reacts, you know, to their constituency and allows the living space over a garage, that's wonderful. They can avoid the cost of this $60,000.00, but they've got the variance for the.garage as is so that they have an ability to keep it without again having to come back and redo this because it is an expensive process for anybody to make an application and, you know, I don't come cheap. So -- BOARD ASST.: It's a two-fold request and they would address it as a two-fold decision. MRS. MOORE: Yes. It's a two-fold -- Thank you, Linda. That's very well put. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, I'm just, we need to move along, I'm just gonna reflect on one thing and that is do we have any idea how much the extension in Orient cost on that house that you had before us? MRS. MOORE: That was also -- I mean I could call the clients and find out -- I mean Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the Building Department. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was a much longer extension. MEMBER OLIVA: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you will see an application coming before us in the very near future with a very short extension, so you may want to sit in on that one. MRS. MOORE: When is it, today? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. In the near future. MRS. MOORE: Okay, alright I'd be happy to listen. I think it depends on a lot of factors. You know, the length, obviously, making it look like the rest of the house. You don't want to have -- and it has to be heated and it has to be habitable, habitable space. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: to move this along. MRS. MOORE: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is Okay, I would like I was really here to I appreciate it. there anybody that has any specific Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 questions for Ms. Moore because I would really like to go, you know, and this is really the second hearing on this, although this is not the exact same hearing? MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any Board members? Anybody in the audience? MEMBER SIMON: Just one short comment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: I appreciate your spreading this out and giving the options. I think the (inaudible) would be well presented to the Town Board and as we know you're not shy about communicating you're strongly held and well-(inaudible) views. MRS. MOORE: You've noticed? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I'll second this by saying that this has nothing to do with your clients, but I need to go on the record, okay. There are two issues here and that is how do you control just family men~ers utilizing the structure? Number two, every one that we have ever done in the old days, the old ancient days, okay, when I had more hair and a different color and a lot more, Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 103 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 okay, were circumvented and impacted school districts immediately after they were granted. Okay, they all started out real nicely, okay, with the aspect and I can tell you one on Peconic Bay Boulevard on the corner of Sigsby Road, alright, and every single solitary one of them were rented to people other than family and that's something the Town Board is going to have to address. MRS. MOORE: And I appreciate that and I think that there -- they have that control. So keep in mind if families are getting together they can all squeeze into the house or they can feel more comfortable and with some privacy with some extra space. So here's the technical connection. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: my -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, I understand. always the comment, you know, abuse, I'm just giving you That's but people abuse speeding, mean that we don't drive. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: you know, it doesn't Thank you. Thank you. I'll make a motion Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 104 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6266 - Peter and Katherine Bacille MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-15 based on the Building Inspector's October 16, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory garage-storage building proposed in a side yard location at Equestrian Avenue (north/east of Oceanview Avenue), Fishers Island; CTM 1000-9-3-11." MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks as though this one-story structure in the side yard is on a site that has very severe slopes and it's very constrained in terms of options for locating an accessory structure. So perhaps you want to address that. MR. HAMM: Yeah, I'll just give you a couple of things. Steven Hamm, 38 Nugent Street, Southampton for the applicant. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. HAMM: Yes, the architects when they planned this they went to the Building Department and based on the information they had from the surveyor they drew something a rear yard line, which is on my Exhibit A to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 that memorandum I just gave you and it showed it wasn't a rear yard in conforming, but when we went back for the building permit they were advised that, no, the rear lot line or the rear yard is defined by a line parallel to the rear lot line not to the street line. So my Exhibit B shows how we were flipped from a rear yard into a side yard and that's why we're here and, yes, this is the most level spot. It has Trustee approval already. The Trustees like the location and there're slopes pretty much everywhere on the property and that's the practical difficulty here. The neighbor, Mr. Bonsal, who Pat Moore represents, had some input in the Trustees and one of the conditions was raising the berm or creating a berm along side the pool and replanting privet, which is already there on top of that. I spoke to Ms. Moore this morning and they would like us to extend that berm and that's on that separate sheet I gave you, that two-page sheet, the second page of that shows that only a certain part of the privet will be replanted and my client is willing to create that berm farther -- more PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 toward the street and replant. In other words, expand the berm that is already a condition of the Trustees. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: No, It's the hand -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, I apologize. MR. HAMM: I have it Can you give us the it's right here. The hand drawing, on this. MEMBER WEISMAN: addressing the pool garage. So this is actually as well as the accessory MR. HAMM: That's right. The Trustees required it as a condition to their approval for both the garage and the pool that this berm be created; however, the neighbor I guess didn't realize that it wasn't big enough at this point. So you can see there's only a small part of that privet was addressed by the Trustees and my client is willing to extend that so that it sort of protects or buffers against the accessory building as well as the pool and that could be a condition that would be acceptable. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 It's on that separate sheet, it's a two- page letter from Mr. Bacile to the Trustees saying that he was agreeable to that and the architects created a depiction of what he was willing to do; however, that depiction, I guess Mr. Bonsal did not realize that it was not -- it protected only against the pool and not against this accessory building as you can see. The berm is only adjacent to the pool, is willing to extend that so to the accessory building as This is to scale so but my client it's adjacent well. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: we could measure that? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, this is not a scale. MR. HAMM: I'm not sure. That's something that I copied. I just copied it when I spoke to Ms. Moore this morning. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the original plan can you just tell us what that distance is from the berm to the end of the last bush so that we can show that extension? BOARD ASST.: You can send it to us in a letter, if you like. MR. HAMM: Okay. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. MOORE: If I can just identify that measurement. Mr. Bonsal's house, that porch - BOARD ASST.: MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: Just identify -- I'm sorry. Pat Moore. Yeah, for the record, you're representing? MRS. MOORE: Mr. Bonsal. MR. HAMM: The porch that's shown on my Exhibit is part of the -- MRS. MOORE: No, no. Wrong porch, sorry. There are two houses -- well, we'll get into where Mr. Bonsal is, but it provides the privacy from Mr. Bonsal's house, which may not, because of the positioning of the house, doesn't -- it's a little bit difficult to measure on the site plan where the Bonsal house is so that it creates that privacy. So I just want to be sure. Maybe we could talk, you and I could talk before you submit that measurement just so we make sure that we're dealing with the right area that -- for that privacy screening. I don't want him to come up with a number now and then it -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, I really wasn't expecting you to come up with a number nOW. MR. HAMM: Yeah, I really can't tell from this. MEMBER WEISMAN: The two of you get together and just simply add linear feet. MR. HAMM: I can have the architect actually draw it. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: We can take care of that that way as long as you have a drawing that we can stamp that you're in agreement with that indicates how many linear feet of berm and screening, the whole thing, that will help. no heat is proposed in this Question, garage? MR. No heat. MEMBER WEISMAN: No plumbing? MR. HAMM: Yes. They would like to get what is permitted by the Building Department, a powder room and an outdoor shower. MEMBER WEISMAN: You want it no heat. MEMBER OLIVA: Outdoor shower? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. HAMM: No heat, but a powder room, toilet and sink and outdoor shower. MRS. MOORE: Toilet and sink and outdoor shower. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a question? MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so it will be used partly by the -- for the pool. MR. H~LMM: It's a multi-function. A one- car garage, storage of kayaks and bikes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. HA_MM: Maybe put a pool table in and a changing room. MEMBER WEISMAN: Electric, of course. MR. HAMM: Electric. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's it? MR. HAMM: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that was my question. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. HAMM: No. have heat, you know, MEMBER WEISMAN: No sleeping quarters? Absolutely. It won't it's not gonna be =- Right. Okay. Yeah, cars don't need the heat. MR. HAMM: Well, it's gonna be used only PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 in the summer probably. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I mean. Okay. I don't have any further questions. MEMBER OLIVA: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any questions. MEMBER SIMON: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else like to speak? Ms. Moore. MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. Mr. Bonsal called me when he received the notice. So you can understand where he is, I don't know if you were out there to Fishers Island to inspect this because -- and it would be appropriate to see it before you approve it, that would make the most sense. I asked somebody on the island to take a picture. I had to defer to their view, so I'm hoping that this is accurate of where the building and the pool is going to be. Just so (inaudible) understanding, you have the tax map in your files -- BOARD ASST.: That's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we do. MRS. MOORE: The Bonsal family owns two Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 properties, two houses. It's the two that are circled in (inaudible) here. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MRS. MOORE: Okay, this is the applicant's property (inaudible) and you can see by the positioning of the lots they're unusually shaped lots and what has occurred is my client's one house is here, they're both (inaudible) family living in the house. He has the house close to the water on parcel 13.2 and another house on 13.3. The photographs were taken from the porch of 13.3 and (inaudible) determine the color code of that (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have no Google Earth map on this, by the way? MRS. MOORE: have (inaudible) the pool and the with the Fisher's No. It would be helpful to of the neighbors' homes where -- we're somewhat dealing disadvantage of not being right on Island, so it's difficult to know exactly where things are. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. (Inaudible). I'm gonna take the photo (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, give it to -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: No, it's alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I insist. BOARD ASST.: I marked that one already, Alright, thank you. Okay. MRS. MOORE: Which one did you mark 1, the one with the house showing or -- BOARD ASST.: No, the other one. MRS. MOORE: Alright, so the photograph that you've identified as Photograph 1 shows - - is taken from Mr. Bonsal's house there's a porch, a front porch right there and the photograph is taken towards the applicant's house and partly on the property. So you can that's 1, 1 and 2. MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: see where the privet the retaining wall. a retaining wall. is presently. These show On your site plan there's MR. HAMM: There's an old retaining wall. There are some old stone walls that are there that might have been around a Croquet or a lawn bowling area, it's not a border though. MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, just help me, is the pool -- no, no, no. Is the pool going to be landward of that or seaward of that? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have -- we got - MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you two talk about this on your own? MRS. MOORE: No, we have. We have. MR. HAMM: Pat, are you objecting to this application, is Mr. Bonsal objecting to this application? I thought we had agreed that -- MRS. MOORE: He's -- I've been asked to put on the record that he's not happy with this application. If the Board -- and I explained the situation that if, you know, I guess it's his frustration that there's four acres here and that the pool and the poolhouse garage are being placed right on top of his property when there is four acres to work this. So if there is any way of looking at this property and finding an alternative site that is his absolute preference to everything. If the Board is inclined to, you know, in review the fact that the pool and poolhouse is going to be placed here, then, yeah, Mr. Bonsal has asked that the privet on a berm be provided for the privacy, but if it is -- his PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 absolute first choice is please try to find an alternate location. If that can't be, then obviously the privet is -- if not the next best thing, but the -- MR. HAMM: This is almost a fluke that we're even here. It's in an extreme rear part of the property. It meets setbacks. Under one interpretation that the Building Department gave, it was in a rear yard. The Trustees have approved it and we're willing to go this extra mile for his privacy and that's all I can say. It's a flat area that the Trustees thought is the perfect place for this to go. There are extreme slopes everywhere else on the property. MRS. MOORE: I know from the -- MR. HAMM: It's gonna function as a poolhouse in part and it should be near the pool. It's gonna function as a garage, it should be near the pavement -- this is in my memorandum -- the pavement and fairly near to the house and a boat storage, so reasonably near the water. It's a logical -- and further, the architect advised me, I can't testify to this firsthand, but of the two Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Bonsal houses, one is on the water. This will not impact its waterfront views and the second house that's behind, I think that's the one with the photograph from the porch -- MRS. MOORE: from. MR. HAMM: The photograph was taken -- this will not impact waterfront views and it's gonna be very well screened by, not just by privet, but other vegetation that's there now. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. the contours on the survey, Well looking at I honestly, given the size of the proposed garage and pool, can't see where else it could be placed -- MRS. MOORE: I understand the topography is -- we know that from the Jeffries -- MEMBER WEISMAN: -- without enormous cost and land disturbance. MRS. MOORE: There is -- there is potential for placing it, as in the Jeffries application that I came before you, we did some retaining walls and stone walls to help position the pool on a sloping property. So it is not uncommon on Fisher's Island to provide for that. It just -- this development Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 is so unique in the sense that the Bonsal homes, essentially their yard is the adjacent property as far as their visual yard. So it is much more intrusive than ordinarily it would be. Fishers Island, for the most part, maintains privacy and this is just a -- it bothers the Bonsal family because it will impact their privacy given the positioning of the house and if there was any way of relocating these structures so that they are not where they have been proposed, that is the request and, again, I understand where the -- that it's the Board's decision and we appreciate that as an alternative, you know, the privet, you know, the privacy screening be provided, but always -- MEMBER WEISMAN: What house are we looking at here? MRS. MOORE: That is a Bonsal, that is the property on 13.2. The house you're looking at is 13.2. The picture was taken standing on the porch of 13.3. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore is there reason (sic) for you to reduce this information that you're giving us to writing PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 as opposed (sic) and then we can basically rebut to an alternative location give Mr. Hamm time to that or whatever he chooses to do other than the information that you gave us? I really need to get this going. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. I think probably the record at the hearing will speak for itself. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: I believe she's presented the case. I believe they've had discussion. I'm sure that your memorandum thoroughly addresses .site conditions that -- MR. HAMM: And purpose of building -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That led to this decision. MR. HAMM: That's important as to what the purpose of this building is, too. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. HAMM: So its location is important. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah and there clearly has been, this often happens, neighbors are not thrilled with what's going on next door, but if you can at least indicate the elevation of the berm and the linear feet on this PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 drawing. You know, have the architect redraw it so that you understand, you know, the height of the plantings being proposed and the immediate nature of the privacy screening. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: As planted. Then, we can consider that as a factor, you know, in reviewing this -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Will you notice Ms. Moore regarding the information you're going to give us also? MR. HAMM: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we'll give you an opportunity to discuss it in a letter with us and, of course, you'll give the -- MRS. MOORE: Oh yeah. I didn't want to surprise Mr. Hamm. We talked out in the hallway so -- MR. HAMM: Well, I was surprised, actually. I thought we had a deal. MEMBER WEISMAN: You looked rather surprised. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we will give you like -- you can get this information like within a week or five business days? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. HAMM: I believe so, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So then you'll send Ms. Moore a letter and us a letter regarding that. MR. HAMM: I'll talk to her first about what they would like. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes and then you'll And you'll either say yea or nay based upon that. The question I have, is there any other information you want to give us in writing regarding your particular representation of this client? MRS. MOORE: Well, I haven't seen -- the memorandum was just submitted so I haven't even seen it. So -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that, that's why I'm asking you if you want to -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah. If you will allow me just to respond to it, at least send it to my client so that he has an opportunity to look at it. I would only ask if I could have a week beyond -- I'm gonna be away the first week of May, so I won't be in the office. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: gonna say that everything I understand. Okay, so we're is going to be finished by the MRS. MOORE: MR. HAMM: MRS. MOORE: 15th of May? That's fine. That's fine. Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that alright? MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I -- is there anybody else for or against this application? Anybody else, Board members? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing pending the receipt of the additional information that we have just sunnnarized. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6250 - David Berwald MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for Variances under Sections 280-124 and 280-116A{1) based on the Building Inspector's November 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed new dwelling construction (after demolition of the existing dwelling). The new construction will be less than the code required minimum: (a) single side yard at less than 10 feet, (b) combined side yards at less than 25 feet, {c) setback less than 100 feet from the bluff adjacent to the Long Island Sound. In addition, a variance is requested for lot coverage in excess of the code limitation of 20 percent of the lot size after deducting land area below the top of bluff. Location of Property: 1525 Aquaview Avenue, East Marion; CTM Parcel 22-2- MRS. MOORE: Pat Moore on behalf of the applicant. MEMBER WEISMAN: So I understand that you demoing the existing one-story dwelling and building a new two-story dwelling on the existing foundation, adding an addition on the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 landward side of the existing foundation, retaining the existing accessory garage and sanitary. Single side yard will be at 5.1 feet, total side yard will be at (inaudible) .6 feet. Total lot coverage 28.7 percent. The dwelling is setback from the bulkhead at 53 feet. MRS. MOORE: No bulkhead. MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, it's not a -- Well, it to the bluff. MRS. MOORE: I think that Notice of Disapproval was corrected. The bulkhead as -- it was an error on the original notice. BOARD ASST.: think. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it was corrected, I Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: You MEMBER WEISMAN: Notice of Disapproval. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Yeah. BOARD ASST.: April MEMBER WEISMAN: updated one? Wait a minute. should have a more -- I have a November l0TM No, it's April 6. 6, 2009. Why don't I have an Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: It could be in MEMBER WEISMAN: In the mail BOARD ASST.: thing except that top of bluff. the mail -- -- I got it. It basically says the same the word bulkhead now reads, MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now -- BOARD ASST.: And the size of the property has -- MEMBER WEISMAN: me the -- BOARD ASST.: that's what it So would you just give correct or not. MEMBER SIMON: From 14,000 to 8 -- BOARD ASST.: To 8,150. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that is correct. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: So instead of the 14,0007 BOARD ASST.: Yes, to the top of the bluff MEMBER WEISMAN: from bluff and square the amended date is? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: because it's measured line to the street. Okay, so now it's just footage is changed and April 6, 2009. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 -- changed 8,150. I think says. I don't know if that's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. MEMBER SIMON: How does that affect the lot coverage? MEMBER WEISMAN: Lot coverage is the same. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Lot coverage is still the same. MEMBER SIMON: Oh, I'm giving -- the lot coverage is based on the 8000 not on the 14,000. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Right. MRS. MOORE: A clarification, it's from the Coastal Erosion Hazard Line, which is more landward. So we've lost, technically, lost all that square footage to a preexisting lot. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask you a question. BOARD ASST.: Based on the unbuildable land, right? MRS. MOORE: Based on the unbuildable land, that's right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: sure. How are we going to create the 8.5 feet on the east side clear? How are we going to allow for an 8.5-foot Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 line. I you want problem. corridor along there? MRS. MOORE: Well, it currently is that. That's what we have now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that, but we have a stoop in the way. MRS. MOORE: Stoop? Oh, the steps down. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: We could give up the steps down. I mean, that's minor. You have steps coming from two directions, this way and that way. So that's not a problem. The Building Department actually allows steps to go as close as 4 feet to the property just learned that recently, but if to have a clear path it's not a CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: That's the new construction, modified. MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, we don't have a -- at least I don't have a second floor plan. I've got a first floor plan and elevations and I don't know why I'm missing, you know, these. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 I need 8.5 feet. fine. That's part of so that can easily be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: You should. MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have a second floor plan. Does somebody else have one? MRS. MOORE: No, I don't think I either. BOARD ASST.: Well, there's the original file, do you want to look or do you want me to look? It should be -- we just got that batch know why I don't have one (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we do (inaudible) sure. BOARD ASST.: Did you submit the second floor plan? MRS. MOORE: Sure. Yeah, I don't seem to have it in here either. I do, it was emailed to me and it's possible that I didn't realize that the second floor plan had not been printed. I'm just gonna double check the -- BOARD ASST.: We do have elevation diagrams, but not the second floor plans. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MRS. MOORE: The -- in the -- Wait, I have it here in my possession so I can provide it. Somehow, maybe when I was -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think I have it. BOARD ASST.: It's not marked second floor. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not marked. MRS. MOORE: That's probably what -- yeah, it shows east, west, front, Long Island Sound as directional. It's -- I will give it to you though. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: I'll make a copy. For the record, so I don't forget what's there, the second floor is just a stairway up with one bedroom, a bathroom, closet. It's just a one- bedroom suite. BOARD ASST.: I could copy it, Joe, you didn't ask, I would have been glad to do it for you. MRS. MOORE: Oh, thank you. I'm sorry, I (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is the second floor, right. MRS. MOORE: It's very possible that when I was copying it it stuck. MEMBER WEISMAN: This is the second floor. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 t0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Is that in your packet? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I don't have that, I have this. BOARD ASST.: I remember that being in the packet, the other packet. I remember seeing that. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I wondered that maybe when it was being Xeroxed and just didn't mark it. BOARD ASST.: Yes, we'll just receive it from the applicant and we (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. MRS. MOORE: I try to check every page, but, as my husband reminds me, I'm not perfect. Five sets to go through. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right a lot of Xeroxing. MRS. MOORE: Oh yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm just gonna ask for some clarification while you're Xeroxing cause I don't want to out of the room. MRS. MOORE: say anything much while he's I understand. That's fine. MEMBER WEISMAN: The lot coverage currently or as proposed, well let me see. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 It 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 looks as though proposed with the new addition is 31.1 percent; is that correct? Proposed lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: 28.7. MEMBER WEISMAN: 28.7, okay. The existing house and garage is 21.77 MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, existing and then proposed is 28.7. Where did I get 31 percent? MRS. MOORE: I don't know. I was wondering where that 31 percent came from. MEMBER WEISMAN: The new addition brings it up to 31 {inaudible) percent more. MRS. MOORE: Oh, it could be the survey was corrected at one point or another. Square footage is sometimes -- MR. BERWALD: (Inaudible) overestimated on the original survey and the surveyor (inaudible) -- MEMBER WEISMAN: me nuts. We've got Now, this is what drives five different documents saying five different things. MRS. MOORE: Sorry. It's possible the survey -- originally, the surveyor had miscalculated the square footage so we had to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 go back to him. I don't know if, you know, you may have the defective packet that has an old -- the wrong survey. BOARD ASST.: Pat, would you please introduce your client? He's on the record and there's no name given with it. MRS. MOORE: Oh, of course yes. Mr. Berwald is here. He's the owner of the property. BOARD ASST.: Okay and he spoke a few minutes ago. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He was the same owner when we granted the garage, right? MRS. MOORE: You got it, same guy. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: So he now wants to live here year-round. Congratulations. MR. BERWALD: We live here already. MRS. MOORE: Oh, you do. Alright, he wants to live comfortably in this Town year- round. MEMBER WEISMAN: So all of the existing setbacks are proposed to be maintained? MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, what happens with PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 structural problems with the existing foundation if there -- if any are discovered? MRS. MOORE: for repair to the MR. BERWALD: I guess if you could provide foundation -- I had the foundation inspected by an engineer MRS. MOORE: Yeah. on the record? They're and they won't hear you. MR. BERWALD: Sure. Aquaview. (inaudible). Why don't you put it taping a transcript David Berwald, 1525 We've had a structural inspection of the foundation by an engineer and we have -- Dukowski -- and we have a letter from Mr. Dukowski stipulating that it's okay. MEMBER OLIVA: Great. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, what -- is it a poured foundation or is it cinderblock? MR. BERWALD: It's poured. MEMBER WEISMAN: Poured. Can you submit that letter to us? MR. BERWALD: Sure. You have it, Pat. MRS. MOORE: I think I may have it, too. I think I may have submitted it. Let me double check. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: The lot itself, let's see the existing footprint is 800 square feet. You're adding a proposed second story. The footprint will become 1332. Is that right, the existing is 800 square feet and the proposed footprint is MRS. MOORE: Yes, description. MEMBER WEISMAN: the 13327 let me find my project While you're looking for MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. Here I'm looking project description shows new construction of existing foundation and addition. Total new first and second floor 36.9 by 36.4. My calculation came to 1343.16. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that total square footage or is that a footprint? MRS. MOORE: That's a footprint, footprint. MEMBER WEISMAN: 13, what was it? MRS. MOORE: 1343.16. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Please check the math, it's 36.9 by 36.4. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. The lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Obviously, it's heavily impacted by the proposed landward addition. MRS. MOORE: Well, it was heavily impacted by the change to the Code. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very small lot. I understand that, so -- I really understand that, the problem is that affects lots and lots of people -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and much as we might be personally sympathetic to what havoc it wrecks with lot coverage, nevertheless, it is what it is. We have to address it. MEMBER SIMON: That's what it was designed to do. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well -- MRS. MOORE: It wasn't designed to do that. Okay, the garage, we have an existing garage that is relatively new because that was the variance that was granted in -- certainly in our memory. There was a new sanitary system that was installed between the house and the garage. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTran$criptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MRS. MOORE: And we have private wells, not public water. So we have our limitations on where the sanitary could go or relocate it. We could keep -- we could repair the existing system, but once you start moving it around we could have problems here because everybody around has got their wells and their sanitary systems all over the place in different locations. So we are -- he has purposely developed on his existing foundation and done only additions on the landward side. MEMBER WEISMAN: Understood. MRS. MOORE: It's still a very modest house proportionally to, you know -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the house is not terribly wide. The lot is not very wide, but it's quite deep. MRS. MOORE: It is not wide. It's quite deep accept that now our Coastal Erosion Line is -- bisects the property almost in half. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: So we have our -- we obviously could not go any further towards the Sound. Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Right. Right. MRS. MOORE: So any addition has to go landward. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there any way you can see to reduce the proposed lot coverage? MEMBER SIMON: I have a question. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on. MEMBER SIMON: Well, it's relevant to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Isn't that a pergola with a hot tub? MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can that go on grade on a cement slab and lower it? MEMBER WEISMAN: deck around it. MEMBER SIMON: It is on grade with a I can see why Leslie got the 31 percent lot coverage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: No, part CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: of the deck. MEMBER WEISMAN: I thought it was -- it's sitting -- I thought it was Yes, but it's depressed into the deck, if I'm reading the sections correctly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, it was Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 my mistake. MEMBER SIMON: Gerry? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, just wait until she's clear. We'll get to you in one second. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER WEISMAN: deck. Here if you look at -- It's recessed into it. It's recessed into the CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I apologize. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's okay, no problem. I'm just trying to, you know, do what we just did with the other application, you knew, with getting rid of some of the wood, replacing it with pavers. I'm not telling you how to do it, I'm just asking if it's possible. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael has a question. MEMBER SIMON: Specific to Leslie's first question about the 31 percent. I found it. It's on the answer to question 3 on the reasons for use variance. It says 31.1 percent. MRS. MOORE: Oh. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's your answer. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it was my answer. It's probably from the original survey. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but there is -- also relevant to that I believe, although it isn't mentioned anywhere on the diagram, the survey, it shows a proposed addition to the garage. MRS. MOORE: No, no. No additions to the garage, it's existing. MEMBER SIMON: Sorry? MRS. MOORE: It's an existing. Second story deck on the existing garage. MEMBER SIMON: That's already there. MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's there. There's no -- we're not touching the garage at all. MEMBER SIMON: I thought that maybe that was part of the increase in lot coverage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, brand-new. MRS. MOORE: No, when we the garage is were calculating the lot coverage, the problem was that we were -- he originally took from the top of the bluff, I think, and then we changed it cause it's now from the Coastal Erosion Line and then ultimately he -- I don't know, John -- I PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 140 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 went back to John three times, but I don't remember what the -- MEMBER SIMON: I just, Pat, it says on one of these it says proposed deck on the garage. BOARD ASST.: 2004 survey for proposed deck, Aquaview Avenue -- MRS. MOORE: It's an existing, I don't know maybe that was an old survey. MEMBER SIMON: It says proposed on one of the documents that were submitted. BOARD ASST.: Look at the surveyor's map. It's a 2004 survey. MRS. MOORE: Oh, it may have been the 2004 application when we went. BOARD ASST.: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yes, maybe that's the '04 survey when we went for the Notice of Disapproval. BOARD ASST.: It may have been attached to the -- MEMBER SIMON: And that was approved then, in 2004? MRS. MOORE: Yes. It was all done. MEMBER WEISMAN: Speaking of the garage, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 is that -- what's on the second floor? MRS. MOORE: That's the large studio. MEMBER OLIVA: Large studio, we conditioned it, too. MEMBER WEISMAN: That was conditioned in the previous variance. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I just want to clarify that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, what else, Leslie? MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's just continue to explore lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Oy. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oy, is right. MRS. MOORE: When you have such a small project, it's very difficult to cut back. You know, that's the disadvantage of being reasonable from the beginning. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's something obviously we want to explore. MRS. MOORE: Right. Well, I understand, I understand. MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, our job is to grant the least variances possible and these Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 142 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, right in -- MRS. MOORE: -- you know, move it in. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 are a lot of variances. MRS. MOORE: If we didn't have trellis, I mean the problem is that the trellis is probably still being considered as lot coverage by the Building Department, so we could put the whole thing on grade, but the trellis is -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It'll be a structure. It'll be a structure. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, I don't -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any purpose of the trellis other than architecturally? MR. BERWALD: (Inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Yes, I'm just trying to think a little creatively. Where the hot tub is there's also the little porch. You come out of the door and then there's a little decking area. What we could do is move the hot tub closer into the building and kind of include it as part of that decking -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 yeah. Not so, I mean, it probably can't be right on top of the (inaudible), but we can probably cut out coverage easily without any impact to the design. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: It could be right there. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I was thinking. MRS. MOORE: Oh, good. MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean at least, you know, without even really sacrificing the visual character particularly. You can still put a pergola, a trellis if you -- MRS. MOORE: Right, and there'd still be room for this hot tub or one or a hot tub of some design in there. Okay. Do you see where the piles, the columns -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: -- where the four columns -- okay, you have one, two, three, four columns next'to the building. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: We just eliminate from that column landward and just take away -- see how (inaudible) the pen I took it away from you, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 144 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 but I'm sorry -- so that the addition, that hot tub and cover ends where the hot tub ends right now. MEMBER WEISMAN: out? Can you just sketch that MRS. MOORE: We could draw it out. MEMBER WEISMAN: Draw it out and recalculate the reduction in lot, it's gonna be a very small reduction. MRS. MOORE: It MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MOORE: It MEMBER WEISMAN: is. So there will be some. is our effort. But it will be some good faith effort to do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Along with the engineer's report MRS. MOORE: MEMBER OLIVA: the bluff. What bluff in? MRS. MOORE: It's a very stable -- MEMBER OLIVA: Ail vegetation? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, this area of Aquaview most of the homes have very dense bluffs and PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 of the foundation. Yes, the engineer's letter. My question is always with kind of condition is that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 they have little poolhouses at the bottom. So that general area is like a cove in that area. Right? That's where your house -- MR. BERWALD: MEMBER OLIVA: MRS. MOORE: MR. BERWALD: MEMBER OLIVA: We don't have a poolhouse. No. You don't have a poolhouse. It's a stable (inaudible). Yeah. How did they get the beach house down there? MRS. MOORE: Many, many years ago. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was amazed to see that cause I went to the wrong property. I said it can't be this one because we had an application here and so then I went next door and had seen that beach house down below. MRS. MOORE: You probably went to Lorne Greene's old house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that Lorne Greene's old house? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MR. BERWALD: It was built right bluff. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, right. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 into the That 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 absolutely amazing. was amazing to see that, MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I have no further questions. MEMBER SIMON: The reason for the question about the foundation is that one of the arguments for granting a 53-foot setback is because there is an existing foundation (inaudible) safe. If it were not a demolition it would be less of a problem than it is. So we have a combination of a demolition and the closeness of this and the initial problem of the lot coverage. One of the things I think at the very least and this is why the question came up about what if there's problems with the foundation once the work starts. As you know, we've had -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, please. MEMBER SIMON: -- situations with people trying to build a brand-new foundation on the nonconforming location. So we have to put some kind of condition in there that it's time out if there's trouble. MRS. MOORE: Well, here's the situation on this particular property. There really is PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 no other place for this house. to remove the foundation, there MEMBER SIMON: Then it's a the size -- MRS. MOORE: But the house is extremely small as it is. MEMBER SIMON: It's very small and it's being expanded landward. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. Even if we had is -- question of -- the house as it is Yes. You could -- I think that we just need to put a little wiggle room for repairs to the foundation. MEMBER SIMON: Right. Right. MRS. MOORE: Not demo the foundation. MEMBER SIMON: Right, yeah. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: In theory that's -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 variance for lot front setback. MRS. MOORE: coverage as well as for the MEMBER SIMON: Then the question could be it could be expanded half-again as far landward, but that would raise more serious lot coverage problems. The idea is where is the southern boundary, wall, edge of the house going to be and where it is now requires this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Yeah, sometimes that is a necessity that is really unanticipated. MEMBER SIMON: Right, right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What you have here also is a poured foundation. The majority of the problems we had -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the blocks. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- are with block foundations. So -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, definitely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- there is a basement floor in this house? MEMBER SIMON: I think it's unlikely. MRS. MOORE: MR. BERWALD: Yeah. Is there a basement? Uh, a basement floor? 148 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, okay. So that interlocks the foundation. MEMBER SIMON: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As opposed to the dirt floor situations with the crawl spaces and all the rest of it. So more than likely the foundation is going to be okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but what I can -- what we can do is write this -- I can write 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 this the way we did on the East Marion one. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: We condition it with repairs and replacement, if such repairs have to be done would be within the footprint that conforms to the site plan submitted originally. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, that way -- cause we don't want to see you back here either. MRS. MOORE: That's perfect. MEMBER WEISMAN: And you don't want to be back here and we don't want the Building Inspector stopping the work. As long as it's in the same place. ~ MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what's gonna be important here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody else like to speak in favor or against this application? Any other further questions? So there is nothing we're going to get from this Mrs. Moore, except for the square footage reduction with the change in lot PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (63])878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 coverage. So we are going to close the hearing pending the receipt of that. MEMBER WEISMAN: And the engineer's report. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the engineer's report. I'll make a motion. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING %6269 - Eric McClure MEMBER SIMON: "Request for Variances under Section 280- 124 based on the Building Inspector's November 24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed deck construction (surrounding pool) which will be less than the code required minimum single side yard setback of 15 feet and less than the code required minimum single side yard setback of 15 feet and less than the minimum required combined side yards of 35 feet, after removal of an existing preexisting deck, at 435 Westview Drive, Mattituck, adjacent to Long Creek; CTM Parcel %139-1-23." And that's Mr. Fitzgerald's. MR. FITZGERALD: It's Jim Fitzgerald for Mr. and Ms. McClure. MEMBER SIMON: Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: Let me say first, I think the statement of the project needs editing and I would like to suggest to you that in the ZBA form entitled project description that you have place for a narrative description instead of a collection of dimensions and so forth. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: You could always attach it to -- MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry? BOARD ASST.: You could always attach the narrative to that. MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I have. BOARD ASST.: Yeah. MR. FITZGERALD: And I'll read to you what the short environmental assessment form and the application for the building permit says. It is repair, replace or reconstruct as needed the existing pool surround deck, 760 square feet, second story balcony 200 square feet, and entry deck 17 square feet. It is not our existing structure thing. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. FITZGERALD: intention to remove the and reconstruct the whole Right. The word reconstruct appears on the description only to cover the possibility that we might have to replace a joist or some such. The main intention was to fix up the decking. MEMBER OLIVA: Upgrade. MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 153 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: anything? MR. FITZGERALD: So what will change, Pardon me? MEMBER SIMON: What will change? What will change in consequence of this project? No dimensions will change? MR. FITZGERALD: You mean on paper or on the ground? MEMBER SIMON: On the ground. MR. FITZGERALD: They're gonna have a deck, which may or may not include every nice piece of decking -- MEMBER SIMON: Right, but it will be in the same space? MR. FITZGERALD: Everything will exactly as it is now except new wood, be in some cases, new nails, new screws, and like that. MEMBER SIMON: That was my understanding on looking at it, despite what you point out is misleading in the Notice of Disapproval. MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I just -- I didn't -- I didn't, assuming that sooner or later you will approve this, I didn't want the words of the approval to be based on this agenda narrative as it exists now. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what you're telling us, Jim, is that there is absolutely no change in size at all? MEMBER OLIVA: No. MR. FITZGERALD: That's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no questions and I have no problems with it. MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of the rare times that I don't have anything either. MEMBER OLIVA: Oh my God, Gerry, please try. MEMBER WEISMAN: your day for a change. MR. FITZGERALD: Try. We're gonna make Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's been made already by going in front of the other hearing. MEMBER WEISMAN: You aren't kidding. least you have a day now. MR. FITZGERALD: There's certain advantage to extending past lunch time. MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 154 At 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is the secondary deck being extended in any way? Cause it talks about the new entry deck on the -- MR. FITZGERALD: No. BOARD ASST.: Being reduced, yeah. MR. FITZGERALD: Everything -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You're just gonna redo it where the wood is rotted. MR. FITZGERALD: The three items that are in the description that I read to you will all be the same size that they are now. BOARD ASST.: Okay. We have two different maps here and I just wanted to double check because the map that shows proposed is a little different from what -- is CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: existing here. BOARD ASST.: This is I'll show it. This existing here. MR. FITZGERALD: It exists. BOARD ASST.: No, the survey shows this is existing. It's a little -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It doesn't go all the way across. MR. FITZGERALD: This is what exists on the ground now. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: The surveyor is incorrect? MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. It was what existed -- BOARD ASST.: Okay, so that's on one story, the first story, and this is the second story. MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. BOARD ASST.: Okay. MR. FITZGERALD: That entry deck does not exist. BOARD ASST.: So there's a second story deck over the existing planter area? MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible). BOARD ASST.: Yes and that's not shown on here. So you're taking the second story deck off of that planter area? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no (inaudible). Oh, this one here. You're referring to this. There's the second story deck. BOARD ASST.: You're building new. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: now or it does exist? MR. FITZGERALD: It MEMBER WEISMAN: It That does not does exist. does exist. Okay. exist Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: Alright, I just want to be sure. Make sure that we use the right thing. MEMBER WEISMAN: We should use that plan and not the survey. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the plan to use. MR. FITZGERALD: Use the plan (inaudible) the Building Department. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I don't remember the second story deck. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's there. MR. FITZGERALD: It's in the picture. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so anybody else, comments? Anybody in the audience for or against? No. Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 158 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6245 - E and C Property Holding, Inc. and Educational & Cultural Fund of the Joint Industry Board for the Electrical Industry MEMBER SIMON: ~Location of Property: 3800 Duck Pond Road, Cutchogue adjacent to L. I. Sound, CTM Parcel 1000-83-2-17.3. The applicant requests the following, based on the Building Inspector's amended October 20, 2008 Notice of Disapproval: (a) Variance under Zoning Code Section 280-36 based on an application for a building permit to construct a new building which will exceed the code limitation of 2-1/2 stories; (b) Special Exception under Zoning Code Section 280-35B to construct and establish use as a conference facility for member private training and education classes; and (c) Special Exception under Zoning Code Section 280-35B concerning as-built Motel units in former accessory poolhouse building." Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 159 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 A couple of us have been taken through there on an interesting and illuminating little tour. I turn it over to you, Pat, to elaborate your introduction. MRS. MOORE: Sure. Thank you. I do want to introduce, he's here with me, I have the architect, Louis Giacalone, who will be speaking and giving most of this presentation, I guess the technical requirements. Mr. Vito Mundo who is the general counsel and I have the Chairman of the Board, Gerald (inaudible). I'm sorry, I never got his name. So everybody -- the important people are here and we, as you pointed out in the Notice of Disapproval, we have an existing motel with 39 existing motel units that are in the process of being renovated. A pool, a poolhouse and an existing restaurant building. What -- the use of motel is by special permit. This project predates special permit requirements. It was originally The Beachcomber, constructed as The Beachcomber and then made the Santorini Motel. So it has a long history on this property. What we discovered when we were reviewing Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 all the permits, existing permits, are that sometime in the 70s in the poolhouse the building was built as a poolhouse, but at one point or another the rooms were converted and used for additional motel space. So what we want -- since we're cleaning up, we're getting a special permit for the -- it seemed appropriate at that time to just incorporate this four additional units that are informally the poolhouse as motel units and, as you pointed out, there was a tour and we showed the existing conditions of the units in the poolhouse before they were gutted so they could be shown that, in fact, they did exist and that they are in the condition that the rest of the motel actually was in before the infusion of an investment here. The Joint Board of the Electrical Union, this arm is educational and the motel is going to be used exclusively by the members in particular for an educational facility. The meetinghouse that is being proposed here is the location where the programs will be provided and it also provides an ancillary space for a computer room to provide secondary Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 computer back-up systems for the facility that is in Flushing, Queens. I guess since September 11tn there has been a secondary computer control so that documents and data is not lost. So this will be an emergency center as well as a computer center, but that's in a small portion of the overall building. I want to get -- we have a short timeframe before you break. I want to get to the issue that we just heard about yesterday, which is we're gonna talk about -- the architect is gonne present the building, but an issue came up with respect to the Town stormwater law and in the Code there are standards in the stormwater law that provide for that if you're building in a 20 percent slope, and we recently provided to you and I'll put it in the file, the Planning Department as part of the SEQRA process requested that we provide them a survey showing all 20-percent slopes on the property. The property is 16.59 acres at 3800 Duck Pond Road. There are some portions of the property that are sloped and the building as we proposed it, the conference building, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 162 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 meetinghouse building, is going to be built onto the slope not into the slope. I think the Town Attorney and I will have to talk about this, and we may be in conformity with that Code because I think that the way it reads is that if you were to build on a parcel that is completely a slope, 20-percent slope property, rather than building into a sloped area it may be -- it's a matter of interpretation and it's the first time that anybody has looked at this since it's a relatively new law. What we did find, and I have a copy of the stormwater plan, is that the state, as you know, the law that the Town has adopted has mirrored the state. The state, actually the DEC implemented this program Stormwater Pollution Prevention Program, the Town has adopted with a general permit requirement and this project actually did file a stormwater and an NOI to the state, which is -- was accepted. There are a few minor questions, but nothing related to the building into the slope. So we may, again, it may be an issue where the state has accepted our plan and that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 plan may be a duplication for the Town. So we'll talk about that again. It's a new issue here and I just heard about it 4:30 yesterday. Fortunately, the architect was available and was able to clear up that a stormwater plan had been filed, but I will put five surveys that show the slopes and where the proposed building is, if you wish to take those. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Two quick questions, can the building be moved to eliminate that, if that's not the case? MRS. MOORE: Well, I would, for those of you who've been on this site, you know that the property while it's quite large, it is -- the meetinghouse works in hand with the motel's use. It is one overall project, one - they work hand-in-hand. It had been placed set aside somewhat, but the placement of the building tucked into the building (sic) allows for various benefits and I do want to have the architect go over that because -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm aware of that. I'm only throwing that out to you. MRS. MOORE: Okay, alright. Alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's number 1. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Alright. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Number 2 is you know that we're waiting for SEQRA so this is not the -- MRS. MOORE: Yes, so we'll keep it open anyway. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So this will be kept open and there was one other issue. What do you have for the public to look at while we are taking a short break? MRS. MOORE: Yes. We have a lot and would you like us to show you the diagrams first before we show the public and then we can go back in detail on the plans? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll just put down what we have right at this exact moment and if they want to break later to look at anything else, we can do that. I just want to go reviewed the documents over something. When I it says it contains 36 preexisting motel units, 3 apartment units and a restaurant and additional 4 units approved in 1999 and you said that there are 42 units. I'm missing 1. MRS. MOORE: No, I said that there are Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 39, 39 plus 4. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 39 plus 4, okay. MEMBER OLIVA: That was around the pool. MRS. MOORE: Yes. So the apartments were all incorporated in my 39. The prior permits -- it was just the size and the use of them were more intensively than the motel, but they have all been renovated and kept exactly -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: plus 4; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's 36 plus 3 Okay. Alright, we'll put down what we have and if the public has any problem seeing it, then we'll give them time to see it. I'll offer a resolution to take a 15-20 minute break. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (OFF THE RECORD) BOARD ASST.: This the hearing of the Joint Board, continued. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. I'm gonna have Louis Giacalone, who is the architect, continue with this presentation now that your blood sugar is under control. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. GIACALONE: Thank you. My name is Louis Giacalone, President of (inaudible) Giacalone Architects in Farmingdale. We're the architects for the Joint Industry Board for this project. We're here and I'm here to talk specifically about the meetinghouse and its location and its size, but I'm certainly prepared to answer any questions you may have on the overall project as well as any of the other items that we are here before you for the variance of the cabana building. If you don't mind, if I can step up if you can hear me I can go through the boards. For those who were not -- have not been to the site or just to familiarize you with the property, this is Long Island Sound; this is Duck Pond Road; these are the two main motel buildings. This is the restaurant, the driveway and the existing parking is here. This is another roadway and existing parking going up to the cabana building, this is the swimming pool and this is the lawn, what we'll be calling the great lawn around the recreation area and then this area is the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 location of the meetinghouse. With the meetinghouse comes also a driveway, which is primarily for emergency vehicles and for handicap use and for automobiles to bring the disabled up to and close to the building, and then the building is located here. There are also walkways that connect the building and the parking areas. The building, I'll take you very quickly through the plan. The lower level of the building consists of the data center, mechanical room, an office, a game room, and there's a small storage facility with a garage door on this end for lawn equipment. The second floor contains a multi-purpose room and you've heard the description that the Joint Board will be using solely using the motel for their own personnel and this building, likewise, is being used for educational purposes for the people who come out and be on the site. So it's the same people that are in the motel who will be at the learning center. The second floor has a multi-purpose room, which is the primary learning center, a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 storage area, a second meeting room. This multi-purpose room will have 100 people, this will have approximately 45-50 people, a small breakout room, exit stairs, public toilets, another breakout room and this is a roof over that storage area. The second floor is accessed from a circular stair, which is expressed on the elevation as this rotunda, an elevator, and then there's an emergency stair on this side. One of the issues in question that Mr. Verity wanted this Board to be aware of was what we'd call the third level. It's not a floor at least from our point of view. The third level is primarily a deck which occurs over the meeting room. If you remember down below there was a meeting room, this deck occurs right on the roof of that meeting room. Access to this deck is by means of the rotunda stair and the elevator and this corridor and all of this spac~ is contained under the roof level and I'll show you on the elevation. So that in a sense what we've done is we've tucked this access hallway out to this deck under the existing roof and specifically made PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 sure that we stayed within the height limitation of 35 feet to the midpoint of the roof as well as to not express that level at the roof level. The area of this corridor and the public toilets and this small lobby is about 470 square feet, which represents about 2.5 percent of the overall building area about 18,000 square feet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The whole building area is 18,0007 MR. GIACALONE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. GIACALONE: This is the main view, which is the rendering that you see here and the point that I wanted to make is that when you look at this building it represents a two- story building and the power to the elevator and the stair penetrate through the roof, which are permitted penetrations in terms of height, but after the second story is the roof and on this elevation you can see that on the side, which is this side, you can see that the grade slopes from the second floor down to the first floor, but it's more demonstrated on this elevation which is the elevation that PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 faces east. It's not exactly due east, but we've been calling it the east elevation. Because the building is tucked into the hillside for a number of reasons, what you're seeing on that side is a one-story building with the same roof sitting on top. This is the deck for -- that sits on top of the meeting room, which is here, and that corridor that leads to this deck or hallway that leads to the deck is located under this roof and the side elevation again shows and demonstrates that where the back of the building is actually tucked into the hill. This is the first floor which comes out and manifests itself in the front, but in the back the first floor is entirely below grade. I have a section that would show that. In this section, taken through the building looking north toward the water, this is a two-story building this is the first floor, this is the second floor. The first floor has access on grade facing the motel building, but the first floor in the hillside is completely buried in the hillside so that only the second floor manifests itself at the PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 back of the building. This is the elevator core that goes up and there is -- I should have brought a marker with me, but in this section it shows specifically this area is a hallway that's tucked underneath the roof. This is the roofline, this is the hallway that is tucked underneath the roof that leads you from the elevator and the stair out to the deck and it was this small area that Mr. Verity wanted us to present to the Board. There are other details and sections, which I can go over in greater detail with you, that show how the building actually is tucked in. There are a couple of reasons that we tucked the building into the ground. The first was to create more of an earth building so that with the building tucked in it's a far more energy efficient building. Secondly, the placement of the building in this location here, what we wanted to do is to place the building in a manner that really enveloped this, what we're calling the great lawn and the recreational area, that is identified by the existing buildings here, by the existing cabana building and the pool area and the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 172 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Bocce court and the basketball court. We wanted to bring physically this area around so that as you went through the facility you really feel enveloped by this. Secondly, as I said, it buries into the ground so that we have a more energy efficient building and thirdly, what it does also is it doesn't block any of the views. If we had -- you had asked the question. If we started to bring this closer than the views of this building to the water would be blocked by the motel building. So there were a number of reasons to bring the building out here including to somewhat isolate it, this is kind of a dichotomy, we wanted it to be part of the envelopment of the great lawn and the recreation, but at the same time we wanted to somewhat isolate it so that it didn't have to participate with this recreation area. So it was a kind of push and pull, get it a little bit away from the recreation are, get it into the hillside, but at the same time still have it appear as part of this overall development. The intent being, when it's all done it would look like it was there for years Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 rather than someone had just dropped the building in and that's the reason for the shape of the building as well. So that it really finishes the end and brings this curve around. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question originally was probably not to bring it forward, but to bring it farther south. MR. GIACALONE: Farther south going away from the water? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR. GIACALONE: The same issue occurs until all the way in back of the cabana and put it on that flat plateau and we had discussed that. We, of course, as planners had looked at that very many different ways to approach this. What we wanted to do is to get it away from this area to bring it closer where the view could be had, to not isolate it on the plateau and simply not to bring it so far back into, this line represents the treeline, not to bring it so far back into the treeline that it would be totally isolated from the buildings. When you mentioned that I thought you Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)8~8-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 174 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 meant to pull it forward this way. You can see from the grades (inaudible) engineers and you can see from the grade that we've reworked the grade around the building so that on this side the grades are not quite level, but almost level, because we had to maintain a easy access for ADA and handicap to be able to go up the ramp at a 12 percent slope, so that entrance is here, but to also cut the grade around the building and do as little disturbance as possible. So most of the grade, I mean the building literally is being cut into the grade, it's not being built on top of the slope, but cut into the grade. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I realize you're an architect and not an engineer, but what is the stability factor of that entire area there? MR. GIACALONE: We took borings; soil mechanics took borings of the site. Once the building is there the building is acting literally as a retaining wall for the earth. So the -- and the design of the back wall, the concrete wall was designed as such to act as a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 retaining wall, not just a foundation wall. Typically, a foundation wall does act as a retaining wall, but only (inaudible) about 2 or 3 feet below grade and at that point you're only 5 more feet in. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Sure. MR. GIACALONE: We've got about a 14-foot high wall, just literally is being designed as a retaining wall. The building would be anchored by the fact that the footings are down deeper and the footings are down deeper on this side so that neither the building nor the grade are going to slide. I mean clearly that's the first thing that we did as a structural engineer. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. GIACALONE: In terms of the design, and I know some of you, I'm not sure all of you, some of you have visited the site, we're very proud of how we took the motel and converted it into what it is today and this building was to continue that design. The intent was to not build what might appear to be an office building. If we did this in the city, it would be a lot different looking. We PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 wanted this building and the entire motel site to be designed as if it was here for the last 50 or 100 years. So this -- interestingly, even though the motel got built first, this building got designed first and after we designed the building, then we designed the hotel building to match this building. So that everything worked together and the intent of this building was to have the appearance, even though it's a fairly large 18,000-square- foot, to have the appearance of a mansion out here or a manor house out here and not just look like a training center or a computer center or a meeting house or anything else like that. So the design really was to envelope the entire facility. MEMBER SIMON: of people that are MR. GIACALONE: What is the maximum number anticipated to be there? We have either 43 or 43 rooms I think we said, which are occupancy rooms. MEMBER SIMON: MR. GIACALONE: double Right. So that's up to -- with kids sometimes staying in the rooms, could make it up to 100 people. The intent of the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Joint Board is that this is a, obviously, members only. This is not (inaudible) so it's members only. MEMBER SIMON: So it's not going to be a traffic issue or a major -- MR. GIACALONE: [Not at mike.] Actually, we were talking with some of the residents. So no, they'll come Friday afternoon or Friday early evening and be on the site most of the time during the weekend and then leave Sunday afternoon or Sunday early evening, but it's not like, you know, we're gonna have traffic coming back and forth. Of course, some people will leave during the day after training sessions and hopefully go into town and go to the vineyards and such, but for the most part they're coming to the site to stay (inaudible) once you got there (inaudible) leave. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was only thinking for the movement of the building that since the motel is really a one-story building of relatively iow what difference if the building was tucked around the back of the swimming pool area? You'd get the same views, you'd PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 178 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 probably even get better views because the views themselves would be forward of the building, in other words out of the front of the building as opposed to just the decking area. MR. option, GIACALONE: Certainly that's an except that this -- the motel is a two-story building on this side and on this side -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. GIACALONE: -- and then the cabana building cause the grade rises up, so the cabana building is actually higher than these buildings. As you can see here then these are the grade lines and this is relatively flat. So if we had put the building behind the cabana, between the cabana and then the roof on top of the cabana, it represents almost a one and a half story blocked view, which means that if I put a two-story building back here other than standing on the second floor most of the time you'd be looking at the roof of the cabana depending on, of course, where it was sited. If we sited it off to the side, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 then I'd be looking at the roof and the second floor of the motel building. So the intent was a number of things. Yes, the view, but I can appreciate that's not necessarily the function of this Board to worry about the views for the JIB, however, it was part of that but also partially not to just isolate the building because this building -- we believe this building has meaning in the location here because it completes an element. Here that building could go anywhere and literally be an isolated building within the community. So the intention was to try to make this building a part of this community rather than have it isolated somewhere else on the site. You can see that the slope comes across this way and then back into this area. So all of this area is fairly flat and the slope comes back over to here as well. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Thank you. MR. GIACALONE: Any more questions? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to make a comment. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscri~tionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: It's better than what's there. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you've done a really excellent job of campus planning. The use of scale or elements is really terrific. It really does create a far more residential feel than, you know, than a large commercial structure. BOARD ASST.: We're not getting you, I'm sorry. There's paper rattling. MEMBER WEISMAN: I was simply saying that I thought it was a very good job of campus planning, that it was located in a very appropriate site. It's not in the steepest part of the slope anyway. MR. GIACALONE: Right, it's at the base. MEMBER WEISMAN: I very much applaud the effort to use geothermal energy to reduce energy impacts. We're very concerned with that out here, as we should be everywhere. You know, it's a handsome overall architectural strategy. I certainly don't have any problems with it where it is or with any of the other special permits. It's an excellent use for the site. It's a real Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Sewice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 amenity for the members of the Union, but also it's a real upgrade for us out here. We would hope that perhaps some of the members would avail themselves of some of our attractions locally, from time to time, but I think it's a terrific job. MR. GIACALONE: If I may address the issue of geothermal cause that came up at one point. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MR. GIACALONE: The Joint Board is currently -- I don't know when you were there, but the Joint Board is currently installing solar panels on the roof of the existing motel and we're investigating still geothermal; however, we were talking earlier with some of the residents, geothermal in a commercial application is not as strong economically as it might be in residential application. There are many companies that are providing geothermal for private residences. Typically, one unit sitting out in the back yard with 35- foot or 50-foot deep hole with a re- circulating system and only on the coldest days you have to go to electric heat or some PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 other source of heat because you just can't extract enough heat out of the water coming up. In a commercial application, similar to a project we're doing at U.S. Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Park, we needed about 2 acres of land for the -- to drill the pipes, etc, in this project it would be less. It would be a half-acre to an acre of land, but more importantly because we're on the water, just as we are in Kings Park, the DEC also takes control and, although we haven't gotten that far into the design yet, we had to drill about 500 feet to make sure we got below what the DEC felt was a critical area of subterranean water. It's on the Sound actually. So economically to drill 500 feet to extract the water out and then have the temperature delta, which at the manifold was about 5 to 6 degrees, cause they have one system out there now and we're going to piggy-back on it, the delta was about 5 to 6 degrees, which is not a lot of heat to take out for a building, which means you have to have a lot more water, which dictates a larger area of site in order to Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 183 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 {inaudible). So while the Joint Board is still looking at it because the solar is now addressing other issues, my opinion as an architect and having worked with our engineers, the geothermal is not yet ready for primetime use in commercial and the indication of that is that there's very few commercial applications for geothermal on Long Island and in general. The rates that we pay for LIPA as it continues to increase is certainly going to cause a lot more clients, including clients like this that have access to area to investigate whether or not geothermal is possible in the future and it's easy to hook geothermal up to the system because it's basically just trading one water source for another water source, but the reality is that right now, although JIB is looking at this, I wouldn't want to say to the Board, yes, we're going to {inaudible) have it. My personal opinion, as an architect, I don't think we will, but the solar -- MEMBER WEISMAN: But it's still passive, I mean, you're still using some passive devices by building into the hill. It doesn't PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 have to be active geothermal. MR. GIACALONE: Well, that's it. That's part of what I said earlier that it's a passive energy saving. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MR. GIACALONE: Only because I've built an earth house -- building, but the solar and I have solar on my house so I know the benefits of solar energy because I get rebates from LIPA. The main thing about solar on this building and it only happened since January, I'm sure you're familiar with net meter and you can sell power back to LIPA at the rate you buy it from them, which is what I do and during the winter months I actually get a credit on use in December/January. I get a credit on my electric bill and then I pay for it with the air conditioning in the suramer, but because commercial -- I net meter as a resident -- because commercial properties were not permitted to net meter until this past January, solar didn't make sense on commercial facilities. LIPA changed that and Kevin (inaudible) was instrumental in putting that through. So now commercial enterprises can PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 185 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 net meter. Most commercial enterprises don't have enough roof area to generate enough area to generate enough power to have excess power during the day, because the Joint Board will use this facility mostly during that bracket of April to November of summer months and then it'll close for four or five months out of the year, those solar panels will be generating electricity 100 percent of the time and selling it back to LIPA. That's why solar makes sense for this project once net metering was put into effect. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's just address the third story aspect. MR. GIACALONE: Sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: I would probably not have written it up as a three-story building, number one, but having said that it's fully sprinkled with a fire suppression system anyway. MR. GIACALONE: MEMBER WEISMAN: Correct, that's correct. So even if we upheld the Notice of Disapproval and called it a three- story building, it's mitigated by the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 sprinkler system. MR. GIACALONE: And the fact that I have three means of egress out of that. I have the circular stair, which is a legal means of egress. I have the stair in the back and then I have the outdoor stair that gets them down to the ground, which is only one story below the deck. So -- and that was done inadvertently, again, not even thinking, cause the third floor didn't come out until the very end of the design. We had met with the Planning Board on design as well as the Building Department in order to make sure that we were doing the right thing and this third story as a story never came up until the very end of the project, but we just knowing that we had to stay within the three-story limit or 35-feet in stories, designed that third floor to be simply a corridor where you come out of an elevator and go out to the deck. In fact, at times we had to resist JIB's request to well let's add another room up there, let's put some windows in, let's put some skylights, let's make use of all that space and we kept insisting if I do that it's no longer a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 187 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 corridor to a deck, it's now a third floor. MEMBER WEISMAN: Habitable space, yes. MR. GIACALONE: So we kept cutting it back. The only concession we made is we added further on public restrooms on that level rather than have to have people go down to the level below and, frankly, I would get rid of those toilets if those -- if that tipped me into being a third floor, I would get rid of those public restrooms cause they're not required by Code, they're there by convenience. MEMBER WEISMAN: It wouldn't matter if it was three stories, we have the right to grant that as long as it's sprinkled. MR. GIACALONE: Right. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you. MR. GIACALONE: Okay, thank you. MRS. MOORE: I just want to correct the record. It was my misstatement, I just want to be sure we have the right numbers cause you were asking me. We have 36 motel units, 3 apartments, that's 39 units and 5 units in the cabana. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 188 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 5 units. MRS. MOORE: So total was the 44, my numbering was off. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thanks. MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much longer do you think you're going to need to present this case, Mrs. Moore? MRS. MOORE: I think that you have all of this in writing already, so I don't know that you need me to restate everything on the record. It is already in the record. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good. MRS. MOORE: I'm more concerned with making sure we have answered your questions. I know that the issue with respect to stormwater is we're going -- because the location of this building is so important, tucked into the hill for all of the reasons that were just stated, if we have to get an amended Notice of Disapproval under the stormwater law to incorporate that as among of your variances, I think that you've heard enough here today on all our reasoning for doing that and the fact that we do have all PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 189 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the stormwater issues addressed onsite including, you didn't mention this, but we talked about it at the site, Duck Pond Road right now all the water goes down and goes into the Sound. We are actually absorbing all or most, I would say, of the Duck Pond water runoff, the public runoff into the site within the grassed area that is just south of the motel and that's requiring a tremendous amount of leeching pool systems, but we are addressing -- we're correcting a stormwater problem that is a Town problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: So that's -- we're mitigating conditions. That as well as the way that we're absorbing all the water onsite, I think, addresses all the stormwater issues that, you know, I would ask that our discussion incorporate into the variance and we don't even know yet what the paperwork will be, but I assume it'll be -- It's area variance standard so I would assume it's the same paperwork that you have already. It'll just be one added provision of the Code, if that's alright with you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 190 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. So let's go on to the public and make everybody aware of the fact that this is the first hearing and there will be at least one more hearing -- BOARD ASST.: Which will be advertised -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it will be advertised for the next one. BOARD ASST.: -- and noticed again. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody who would like to speak for or against this application? Lady in yellow -- white, excuse me. We need you to use that, we apologize. NEIGHBOR: (Inaudible). We are the owners of the house right next to the property. MRS. MOORE: The top of the hill. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: hill. NEIGHBOR: So we of At the top of the course are the ones most affected by the proposed plan here and I have been very impressed by the plan, by the care of the architect and of the Union and my only concern is that of the noise abatement. There is no noise abatement Code in this Town right now. With the other motels which were PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 191 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 very small and not very nice, we did hear noise coming up from that area. With this larger group, we are concerned that perhaps we will hear noise. The architect has assured me that where the air conditioning units are going to be placed that there is going to be sound baffling and we are very enthusiastic that they are very aware that they are going to be good neighbors and I only ask that if the placement of the mansion, the meetinghouse, perhaps there could be some screening, some kind of vegetation screening so that the noise, not the look, but the noise level of 100 people in the building coming and going 100 people on this deck, which is very adjacent to my property, that perhaps there could be some, when they landscape there could be some vegetation protecting us and that is really our only concern, and I think that we have some very good neighbors in our midst. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's very constructive. We thank you. MRS. MOORE: One of the things we talked about, again, if this building is approved PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscdptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 ultimately where it's proposed, we talked about the possibility that we do have the woods that we are not touching, if we need to add some vegetation into any bear spots, we would certainly do that. The one thought I had was possibly providing some evergreens on their property since they're up high and flat. That possibly the Joint Board would pay for the screening on her own property and she -- and that was certainly something that was a -- NEIGHBOR: Yes. MRS. MOORE: -- possibility for additional sound barrier for them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you contact this very nice lady in this period of time that we're not meeting and resolving another issue that possibly a plan could come up, come forward so that we would be able to incorporate that within the decision? MRS. MOORE: I'm not sure if I understood what you just said. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A landscape plan. MRS. MOORE: Oh, well, unfortunately we're at the site plan process, so we have to establish where our building is going to go -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 tl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand, but we're still planning on putting the proposed building in this location. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Assuming that we will go with this -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you go up and visit this nice lady at her -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, sure. Yes, we can do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: with a plan. BOARD ASST.: Separately. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Separately from this to be incorporated within this decision? MRS. problem. -- home and come up MOORE: That's fine. That's not a Again, that offer is when we have the building here, if we're gonna, you know, we don't control the Planning Board, but we're hoping that they will be, you know, amenable to where we have everything proposed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does anybody else have any questions for Pat Moore at this time? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Okay, anybody else? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion adjourning the hearing without a date waiting for SEQRA and the one other issue regarding slope variance, hopefully not. BOARD ASST.: It may be an amended variance that's needed -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: amended variance. Right, right, an MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have to go to the Building Department to see if ultimately we're gonna have a Notice of Disapproval that addresses this or not -- BOARD ASST.: MRS. MOORE: soon as possible. MRS. MOORE: In time, in time. We'll try to address it as Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for the presentation. BOARD ASST.: Who would like to second that motion? MEMBER WEISMAN: Me. {See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING %6246 - Alan Cardinale, Jr. MEMBER WEISMAN: ~Request for Variances under Sections 280-15C, 280-18, 280-116B, based on the Building Inspector's October 20, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory garage under construction (after as-built demolition of an accessory garage), which new construction is proposed at less than the code-required minimum: (a) less than 50 feet for the front yard setback and (b) less than 75 feet from the bulkhead, Location of Property: 1134 Bridge Lane, Cutchogue; CTM Parcel 1000-118-1-9 adjacent to Wunneweta Pond." Let me just -- MR. GOGGINS: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. GOGGINS: start? Hi, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Are you ready for me to MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just get a couple of questions here. Just to clarify that the new accessory garage, which is currently under construction, as a replacement, is an expanded size in the front yard with a front yard Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 setback of 50-feet -- according to Code requires 50 feet, this would be 13-feet yard setback. MR. GOGGINS: Yes, 13.8 MEMBER WEISMAN: the bulkhead. MR. GOGGINS: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, Okay and 31 feet from go ahead. it front Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 MR. GOGGINS: I'm William C. Goggins, the law firm of Goggins and Palumbo, 13105 Main Road, Mattituck, New York for the applicant. The applicant, Mr. Cardinale, purchased this property in September 7, 2007 and secured a building permit to rebuild a house that was there. The house and on this property of about 80,000 square feet, there is a house and a detached garage that were built prior to zoning. The house, Mr. Cardinale secured a building permit to construct a new house and during that process he decided to rebuild the garage and in rebuilding he ended up having to knock it down. He thought that the setback was 15 feet, which is for a side yard so he moved the garage 15 feet and rebuilt it 15 feet from the property line. It turned out to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 be 13.8, so when they plotted the garage for him the surveyors made a mistake, but the intent was to comply with the Code from that standpoint and actually after I'd done some research on that issue it's interesting when you look at the definitions for a front yard, rear yard and side yard, none of them really fit this unique piece of property. The property, as you know, is almost like a peninsula and it's surrounded on three sides by water and one side by about 157 feet that adjoins the neighbor and access to the property is through an easement. So I have those definitions with me so I can present them for the Board. BOARD ASST.: Thank you, are there enough for everyone? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. MR. GOGGINS: You're welcome. How are you? MEMBER OLIVA: Good, how are you? MR. GOGGINS: So when you look at the description of a front yard it states an unoccupied ground area open to the sky between street line or between the street line PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 established by the official map of the Town or an approved subdivision plat and a line drawn parallel thereto. That definition doesn't describe anything that's near Mr. Cardinale's property. If you look at the description of side yard, it states an unoccupied ground area fully open to the sky between any property line other than a street or a rear lot line and a line drawn parallel thereto between the front and rear yard. MEMBER WEISMAN: That doesn't describe it either. MR. GOGGINS: That doesn't describe it either. Then we go to rear yards. We have an unoccupied ground area fully open to the sky between the rear lot line and a line drawn parallel thereto. So none of this describes or fits within this property. So it's a unigue piece of property. So when Mr. Cardinale decided to move it 15 feet off the property line, if we were to use the side yard setback criteria, we'd be asking for a 1-foot, 1.2-feet variance, if we were to do that. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, one of the important issues, I mean, it really has virtually no impact on anyone in its current position. There is an accessory structure on the other side of the stockade fence; I believe that must belong to the neighbor? MR. GOGGINS: It does. That property is owned by the neighbor John Miller and Sarah Miller. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MR. GOGGINS: And by the way, I've got the green cards for people that had to be noticed. [Not at mike.] They were Miller who own that house next John and Sarah door, Robin Drew, and Walter and Mildred Silvernagle. What we were able to do is ask those people if they would support the application and we received an affidavit from John and Sarah Miller (inaudible), which they support the application. Specifically they state in paragraph 3 that they support the application, that the building has always been there, in fact, there's always been habitable space where people would reside from time to time. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 200 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The conversion to a garage is more consistent with our neighborhood and will look beautiful. So that's the affidavit we got from them. We also got an affidavit from Mildred Silvernagle. Her husband is deceased at this time, but she signed a similar affidavit as well and the third person noticed was Ms. Drew and Mr. Cardinale spoke to her and she said she would sign a similar affidavit supporting this project, but he hasn't gotten it back yet. She sent it by Federal Express. So you're right, it doesn't really impact the neighbors and again this property is surrounded by water and it's consistent with the neighborhood, too, because this is on Wunneweta Pond and, I was gonna wait until I get asked the question, but there are approximately 52 properties on that pond and we found that 26 of them have structures not only within 75 feet of the property and also within 30 feet of the property and we've got the information on those properties as well, which shows that it does. [Not at mike.] I have a chart showing these properties (inaudible) architect is here Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 (inaudible), job, but -- but we did (inaudible) better CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a new thing for you, Billy. This is very impressive, I'll tell you. MR. GOGGINS: BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible). Can I have one more for our absent Board member? I can give this to him, he'll be back for the next meeting, so -- thank you very much. That way I don't have to call. MR. GOGGINS: of course water, The property -- the blue is the yellow are properties that have structures within 30 feet of the water and the white are properties that don't have structures within 30 feet of the water. MEMBER SIMON: property? MR. GOGGINS: Which one is the subject The subject property is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Lot 10, no 1. MR. SOGGINS: Lot 1, yeah. [Not at mike.] What we did was we numbered the properties and we (inaudible) of the -- I also have (inaudible) of the property as well. MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're addressing the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 character of the neighborhood? MR. GOGGINS: [Not at mike.] Yes, I am and by showing you these photos and the property owners and how they relate to each other. MEMBER WEISMAN: So you said 52 properties were on the pond and 26 have accessory structures within 30 feet of the water. MR. GOGGINS: That's right and we got photographs of them all. [Not at mike.] Number 1 is (inaudible) you have photos of that structure. Would you pass that along? Thank you. Number 2 is the second property and all the map is numbered as well so you kind of follow what we did. Number 2 is owned by the Millers, which is the property next door and we've got a few photos there. The first photo shows Mr. Cardinale's structure and the Miller structure right behind it. The second photograph shows the (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you submitting these to all of us? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 203 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: We each keep one? Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MR. GOGGINS: Yes. Keep them all. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MR. GOGGINS: [Not at mike.] The next property is (inaudible) number 3 and (inaudible). BOARD ASST.: Bill, are these small ones yours? MR. GOGGINS: It doesn't matter. If you BOARD ASST.: There are extras. MR. GOGGINS: Yeah, you an put them on the rail. Thanks. [Not at mike.] Number 4 is owned by Fredrick Main and the photo shows the structure pretty (inaudible). Number 5 is the (inaudible) property. This shows a deck which is almost right into the wetland itself. Number 6 is a beautiful piece of property owned by (inaudible) and we've got a few photos of that. The first photo shows a boathouse, which is approximately 10 feet from PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 204 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the (inaudible). Number 7 is a property owned by (Inaudible) and that's a pretty big structure and that's within (inaudible) foot of the (inaudible). Number 8 is a property owned by Geraldine (inaudible) and that structure is (inaudible). Number 9 is a property owned by Daniel (inaudible) and that shows a -- it's like a habitable structure and that property also has a second accessory structure {inaudible). BOARD ASST.: The numbers on the front of the photo are not agreeing to the numbers that you're giving. MR. GOGGINS: BOARD ASST.: that refer to? MR. GOGGINS: Correct. BOARD ASST.: But what would they refer to? MR. GOGGINS: Yeah, what we did was in a boat we went around the creek and took photographs of -- MEMBER OLIVA: MR. GOGGINS: No, I don't -- Those are different numbers Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 Oh. --each (inaudible) house. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 205 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: Right, so that's how you numbered them from your camera? MR. GOGGINS: That's correct. That's how we did it. BOARD ASST.: MR. GOGGINS: that. BOARD ASST.: it for the record. MR. GOGGINS: Okay. (Inaudible) sorry about No, I just want to clarify Thank you. [Not at mike.] {Inaudible) and so that was (inaudible) within about 4 feet of the (inaudible). Number 12 is a property owned by (inaudible) which shows (inaudible) feet from the (inaudible). Number 13 is a property owned by (inaudible) and this shows a shed that's (inaudible). I hope I'm not boring anyone. MEMBER WEISMAN: Nice pictures. MR. GOGGINS: Number 14 is a property owned by Robert (inaudible) it's like a (inaudible) story structure, which is about 30 to 40 feet from the creek. Number 15 is a property owned by (Inaudible) and the main structure is anywhere PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 from 30 to 50 feet from the creek. Number 16 is a property owned by (inaudible) that just shows the structure, a large structure on a dock (inaudible). BOARD ASST.: Would it be possible, Bill, if you could number -- maybe later give us a list of the ones you're referring to and describing cause they don't agree with any of the photos. They're not labeled and -- MR. GOGGINS: No, it's -- well, okay, I can do that. (Inaudible) that's why I gave you these -- MEMBER SIMON: BOARD ASST.: Yeah, they' re They don't have -- kind of hard -- Yeah, alright. are you -- MEMBER WEISMAN: presume. is. but they're not marked on -- Oh, If they're all on the index sheet, They're all on here, MR. GOGGINS: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what MR. GOGGINS: BOARD ASST.: this handout That's right. So the numbers on the right are the ones on the front of the photos, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 that's what I was asking. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, thank you, that helps a lot. MR. GOGGINS: [Not at mike.] Number 17 is structure within 30 feet. Number 18 is a property owned by (Inaudible) and then the boathouse and (inaudible). Number 19 is a property owned by (inaudible) and that's a house that is (inaudible) it's an old shed (inaudible). Number 20 (inaudible). Number 21 is a property owned by (Inaudible) that has a residential structure (inaudible). 22 is a property owned by (Inaudible) a shed (inaudible). 23 is a property owned by (inaudible) a pretty large house. It's in construction right now and it's (inaudible) be about (inaudible) feet (inaudible). 24 is a property owned by (Inaudible) that shows a boathouse. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 25 (inaudible) and that shows a house (inaudible). (Inaudible) are houses that are within this (inaudible) of the (inaudible) and as you can see from the yellow as compared to the white, there's more properties that have these type structures that don't (inaudible) the neighborhood and we went up over to one other creek (inaudible) which is the other part of the map and looked at seven more houses that were on the creek over there. Although it's still Nassau Point, but it's further away (inaudible) neighborhood (inaudible) photo for 26 (inaudible) see this one, but through the brush (inaudible). Number 27 is a property owned by (inaudible) and (inaudible) feet of the wetlands and the creek. Number 28 is a property owned by (inaudible) and that's a single-family residence that's right up to the bulkhead. 29 is a property owned by (inaudible) as well, (inaudible) 75 feet, but it's across the road at (inaudible). Number 30 is a property owned by PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 (inaudible) this shows a two-story structure. You've got two (inaudible) connect to each other and that building on the first photo is build right o~ the bulkhead as well as the (inaudible) structure next to it. Number 31 is a property owned by Elizabeth Oman, on the bulkhead, bulkhead. again, also is house not built but within 10 feet of the Number 32 is a property owned by (inaudible) that looks like a new structure. It's (inaudible). Number 33 is (inaudible) I think (inaudible) mistake in naming this, but there's another structure (inaudible) but it's another structure that's within that 30 feet. [Back at the microphone.] The next point I'd like to make is with regard to the violation of Article 12 Section 280-116B calling for the 75-foot setback. Again, this property is unique and if you measure from the north side of the property to the south side where this current garage is the distance is 157 feet. So you couldn't possibly put any structure there because you Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 210 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 can't possibly meet the 75-foot setback. Well, actually that's not true, you can put a 7-foot building in between. That's all you could do. So again, the Code doesn't really address the unique situation that Mr. Cardinale has on this property. MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask you to clarify something? The first 26 photographs you submitted are all properties on the pond, on Wunneweta Pond. MR. GOGGINS: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Then the other ones that you presented are photos on water that are closer -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're on Fisherman's Beach. MR. GOGGINS: north side of the gave you. MEMBER OLIVA: Fisherman's Beach is at the large colored chart that I Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's nearby. 30 just MR. GOGGINS: MEMBER WEISMAN: feet or more the That's nearby. And they are all within (inaudible). Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. GOGGINS: Yes. What Mr. Cardinale is -- he did the structure while he had the building permit for the house. It wasn't like he was hiding what he was doing. He really thought he was able to rebuild the garage and he thought he was complying with the law by moving it 15 feet off the property line. So it's not the type of applicant who comes in and, you know, rather than ask for permission, asks for forgiveness and I know that there's a big distaste for that and that's not what he was doing. He did it in plain sight, the Building Inspector was there and said it looked good. Jimmy King was also there and said it looked nice, but then they realized that, you know, the structure had moved and then, you know, violations occurred. The Trustees had put a violation against Mr. Cardinale. They made him pay the maximum fine, he paid $4000.00, which if he would have hired me I would have fought it, but he didn't do that. So, you know, he's paid the price for doing this. So we ask that you grant the variance for the construction of the garage Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 as-built and even when he was told to stop building it he was half-way done with the roof. You can see the photos, he's putting a cedar shake roof and half of it is exposed to the weather and he's left it there for months. So, you know, a lot of people would put a tarp over it or start building it just to get it watertight, but he didn't do that cause he didn't want to violate the Code. So he's done everything that he thought he was doing right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the previous garage was 4.2 feet from the property line, so at the very least the setback is substantially more. MR. GOGGINS: Yes and he also converted it from a single-family residence to a garage, a less intensive use. The house also had a septic system. He removed the septic system. In addition, the property was -- that house was accessed by an asphalt driveway. He removed the asphalt, you know, that pervious (sic) structure and put in a non-pervious (sic) pebble driveway. In addition, they had when they did that, when they moved the garage they also changed the pitch of the land a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 little bit because the water, the surface water that was landing was going toward the creek. They put a new bulkhead and they also made it so that the surface water would be contained on the property. So they did that as well. In addition, the old garage didn't have drywells for the roof water, this garage does. So he's done everything he could to address, you know, environmental concerns. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are the drywells close to the water, Bill, where are they? MR. GOGGINS: There's a -- it's one drywell that is about 70 feet from the water. I think it shows on the print that was submitted. There's an upgraded print, it is - CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, I see it. MR. GOGGINS: You see it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. MR. GOGGINS: It's at the -- looks like the south corner, southeast corner -- southwest corner. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. GOGGINS: Yeah, southwest corner of the garage. The one circle was the old septic PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 tank and the other circle is the new drywell. We also received the recommendation of the LWRP today. I read it over and we're having the elevation checked out because in that report it indicates it's an 8-foot elevation. The architect when they put it together said it's an 8-foot elevation in that area and I think the LWRP, whoever did the investigation, was probably going off the old bulkhead not the new bulkhead. If you go off the new bulkhead, you know, he's high enough. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where do you stand with the Trustees now? MR. GOGGINS: I believe they're abiding the event here. They wanted us to seek a variance and have it granted before they address any issues. MEMBER SIMON: So you're here essentially because the Trustees, basically, sent Mr. Cardinale to us? What alerted the Trustees? I'm curious. MR. GOGGINS: The Trustees went to the property to look at the house and saw the garage and thought everything was fine. Then the Building Inspector came saw, you know, PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTran$criptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 215 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 wait a second I'm not building permit for and you need -- MEMBER SIMON: MR. GOGGINS: sure if you have a that structure, you know, Alright. -- one. So then when he applied for the building permit, the Building Department said, oh gee, you're too close to the water, you'll have to get Trustees' approval. You're too close to the side yard or the front yard and you need to get approval from the ZBA. So really it's the Building Department sent us here and the Building Department also sent a notice to the Trustees informing Mr. Cardinale he has to make an application to the Trustees, which I believe he has -- right. And they put that off pending a decision by this Board. MEMBER WEISMAN: What would be helpful, I have to write this finding, would be a submission of your response to the LWRP -- MR. GOGGINS: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- letter, which we've just gotten. If you could get that to us in the next couple of days -- MR. GOGGINS: Sure. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that would be very helpful cause we have to obviously incorporate that in the findings. MR. GOGGINS: Okay, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have, Bill, is there any water run-off leaving the site leeching toward the bulkhead from the garage area at all or from the driveway area? MR. GOGGINS: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the elevations, I mean, you really can't tell when you're there, I've been there twice. I was there early before the house was pretty much completed, okay, and I just I didn't know if there was any water run-off going toward the site or from the driveway going toward the water, I should say not from the site. From the site in front of the garage toward the water, is what I should say. MR. CARDINALE: (Inaudible). MR. GOGGINS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hi, state your name. MR. CARDINALE: Alan Cardinale, Jr. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MR. You're drywell was conduit put CARDINALE: 1134 Bridge Lane. correct. We actually, when that installed we have underground in place at each corner of the garage so there'd be four leaders coming off the garage. Again, I had requested, through a letter to the Town Attorney, if I would be allowed to put the gutters on the building and they felt that it would be best that I wait, but I do have it all in place and all the water calculations have been taken into consideration. There were no gutters before on the previous structure and now we'll have four overhead gutters. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. And you will abide by the non-turf buffer aspect? MR. CARDINALE: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody have any questions of Mr. Cardinale? Okay, Thank you, sir. MR. CARDINALE: Thank you. MR. GOGGINS: Also the non-turf buffer is already in place. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What? MR. GOGGINS: The non-turf buffer is PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 already in place all around the property so that was already taken care of and it's a brand-new bulkhead surrounds all three sides of the property as well and also he moved it in two feet, you know, so he gave up some property in doing that and that's why there's some discrepancy regarding the distances, the old distance and the new distances. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I'd like to see your reply in writing. MR. GOGGINS: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else? Anybody in the audience like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing this hearing pending the receipt of the information regarding the LWRP. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 219 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING #6257 - Frank Zagarino Trust CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we ask you to state your name for the record? MS. GIGLIO: Jodi Giglio of Bennett Enterprises office at 1029 William Floyd Parkway, Shirley, New York on behalf of the applicant. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. MS. GIGLIO: I have letters from the adjoining property owners and surrounding property owners supporting the application for the proposed house to be set at a 10-foot setback. Mr. Falco was here earlier and had to leave for another appointment, but he expresses in his letter that he was -- or is vehemently opposed to the house being moved up and closer to South Oakwood and that it would disrupt his view that he has had since he has lived there and it would also prevent any breezes from coming into the property or in through his kitchen window, but I have copies of the letters from all the adjoining property owners and I also have a copy of my testimony from last time (inaudible). [Not at mike.] PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 220 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: you very much. MS. GIGLIO: Okay. Thank you. Thank So the last time that we appeared before the Board, the Board had made the recommendation that we have the surveyor actually stake the property line or stake the location of the house at a 10-foot, 15-foot, 25- and 35-foot to give the Board a better idea as to where the house would be situated and what the view would be. I don't know if you had a chance to get out there and look at it. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes (inaudible). MS. GIGLIO: Do you have any questions for me? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does anybody have any questions? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I think it was very helpful. MEMBER SIMON: No. I think we've all seen the property at least once and I think it's fairly clear. Just a comment, this is -- the issue, as I understand it, really has to do with concern by neighbors and for neighbors. It's a little bit different from Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the usual case where people want to do something and their neighbors don't want them to do it. MS. GIGLIO: That's correct. MEMBER SIMON: In this case, there's a kind of a (inaudible) between the neighbor and the applicant to some degree. So it's a question of it's both of them against the Code as we see it, our flexibility and our discretion with regard to how we can deal with the discrepancy between that and the Code, which is why it's very helpful to have a number of options shown by posts in the ground. MS. GIGLIO: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: But do you have any questions, comments the relative merits of these posts in these, you know, 10, 20, 30, 35 relative possibilities? MS. GIGLIO: Okay, well what I would like to say is that there are two houses to the north of the subject premises that are situated closer to South Oakwood, probably closer to the 30- or 35-foot setback. We didn't have their properties surveyed, so I PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 can't be exactly sure, but I know that the parcels to the south that are towards the bay are all at a 10-foot setback. Mr. Zagarino"s house currently is at a 3.8-foot setback and he's proposing to move it to a 10-foot setback to be in-line and in character with the parcels to the south. We have letters from the property owner, as I said, to the north that said if the house -- he's objected to the house even being moved up to 10-foot off the property line. He's happy with 3.8 foot off the rear property line, but he said 10-foot he can live with. Anything more than that, he vehemently objects to or "opposed to such construction and relocation for the following reasons". One was the open-air view from his kitchen window, as I'm sure you all saw when you were out there. His view, the summer breezes that he gets off the bay and the view of open space in the front yard of Mr. Zagarino. He feels that his home would be less desirable and less likely to sell in the future that it would devalue his property if Mr. Zagarino's proposed construction were to be moved up PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~vice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 223 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 closer to South Oakwood. He wants the house as Mr. Zagarino has it in the proposed location, which is 10 feet of the property line. Now, I know that the Board has to take into consideration setting precedence here. This is a small community. You have a letter in here as well from Mr. Buscemi who is the Secretary/Treasurer of the South Oakwood Homeowner's Association this is a homeowner's association and he has indicated in his letter that he has polled the members of the Board and that they don't have any objections to the proposed location as Mr. Zagarino has it. If the variance cannot be granted to where it's 10 feet off the property line, Mr. Zagarino would have to seek his alternatives in that he probably would not be demolishing the house and placing a new house 35 feet. He would leave the existing house in the location that it's in and seek to renovate it. Again, in order for the house to be more energy efficient and Code compliant, it would be advisable to me to build a house in the location where the Board saw fit, but Mr. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Zagarino would be -- he would be opposed to doing that, to move the house further up than 10 feet because views and also, object to it. So I don't it would destroy his water you know, his neighbors would know where the Board is in relation and the position to this application whether they are looking at it favorably or unfavorably. If I could get some indication as to if we can work with you somehow to possibly suit the community's needs and Mr. Zagarino's needs and hopefully come to a compromise here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Having grown up in a small neighborhood very similar to this, probably three-quarters of a mile from this piece of property, I can understand the neighbors. I live next to the Ryders on 60, okay, and I probably met you many times there. I grew up in that area. I can understand the interest that the neighbors have and South Oakwood has always been a very, very nice block. There's no question about it. So, in general, all I can offer to you is that it's a democratic vote of three votes, Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 alright, and that's all we can offer. We don't normally poll the Board and we just don't do it. Okay? MS. GIGLIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By the mere fact that no one has actually, and I'll just throw this out, which I probably shouldn't say, no one has actually said to you that they are against it, that's a positive step. Okay? MS. GIGLIO: Terrific. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: However, we must always ask the question and tell you that alternate relief is of concern to us and we did mention that the last time. So we, you know, that is always a pending situation and so we will address it at the next regularly scheduled special meeting. MS. GIGLIO: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And hope to have a decision for you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, I would like to make just one comment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're all familiar with the various criteria that we're obliged to Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 address in our finding and I think you've made a very strong case for the character of the neighborhood in creating a nonconforming, perpetuating let's say a nonconforming rear yard setback. You know, it is really very clear to me from two site visits, actually three site visits, as well as all the testimony and letters submitted that this is a preexisting nonconforming situation, which is pervasive throughout that small neighborhood and has heavy impact in terms of potentially changing it in a radical way. So I just simply want to acknowledge that I think you've done a very -- made a very strong case for supporting the character of the neighborhood with a nonconforming rear yard setback. MS. GIGLIO: Thank you. I'd just like to add for the record that the proposed new construction would -- where the existing house is encroaching into the side yards, the proposed new construction would not be encroaching into the side yards and would maintain the setback of the zone. So the only variance request that we have before you today is the rear yard and the -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Lot coverage. MS. GIGLIO: -- minor lot coverage. from 20-percent to 23. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. else? Anybody else Seeing (sic) in the public? no comment, I'll make a Yes, Anybody motion closing the hearing and reserving decision. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING %6237 - George Yatrakis MRS. MOORE: Let's make sure you have the right paperwork in front of you -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait a minute (inaudible). There we go, you got it. MRS. MOORE: Okay, the last change date of the survey, the last revision is April 9, 2009 and that one has all the setbacks of the newly relocated pool and house and then you should have the Notice of Disapproval, the last amendment being April 3, 2009. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What did you say the date was on the survey? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the survey is April 9, 2009. We just added some additional measurements, but it didn't of Disapproval. The Notice have April 3, 2009, right? CHAIRMAN GOEH~INGER: survey April 3, 2009. change the Notice of Disapproval I I have -- I have a MRS. MOORE: Nope. Keep looking April 9th, that's why I'm checking. MEMBER WEISMAN: You have another Notice that's beyond March 27? MRS. MOORE: Yes, April 3. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: April 3. MRS. MOORE: I delivered all of that April 3. BOARD ASST.: I have all the April 3rd maps and they're all stamped April 3rd, I'm gonna look to see if you submitted anything after April 3. MRS. MOORE: I think the April 3rd letter has the April 9tn survey. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, I got it, I got it, I got it. MRS. MOORE: You got it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else have April 3? MRS. MOORE: Okay, let me show you the difference between the two. BOARD ASST.: original set. MRS. MOORE: I have April 3rd with the Let me show you the difference between the two. BOARD ASST.: Okay. MRS. MOORE: April 3rd has the one measurement. Okay. BOARD ASST.: Okay. MRS. MOORE: April 9th has multiple Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Sewice (631)878-8355 230 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 measurements. BOARD ASST.: measurements. Oh gonna believe it. many measurements. MRS. MOORE: Many, many, many look at this, you're not I have an April 3rd that has There you go. That's the one. I don't know why -- BOARD ASST. But mine says April 3rd , look. Look. came MEMBER SIMON: I don't think anything in April 9th. BOARD ASST.: Really. MEMBER WEISMAN: I have April BOARD ASST.: It is April 3rd. MEMBER WEISMAN: I got it. MRS. MOORE: I have April 9th on this one. 3rd . I don't know what he did. MEMBER SIMON: It's exactly the same. MRS. MOORE: Oh, you know what, I -- sorry, I apologize. April 3r~ is the one. know what it was, Joe cleared it up for me. You My mistake, installed -- the probably -- BOARD ASST.: April 9th was when the sanitary was sanitary information. You We didn't get that one, but Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 we didn't ask for it. MRS. MOORE: Did I give it to you? You don't care, you don't want it. MEMBER SIMON: We didn't ask for it, we don't need it. MRS. MOORE: I have it, but you don't need it. it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make copies of MRS. MOORE: Sorry about that. BOARD ASST.: Only if you want us to have it, we only have April 3rd. MRS. MOORE: I will give you one for your records, but I have Joe here and we can, as an officer of the court, I can tell you that the sanitary was -- BOARD ASST.: we'll take it. MRS. MOORE: If you want us to have it I will give it to you, but I'm using it right now. We installed the leeching pool for the sanitary system. That's CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Give me it down here, I'm make some copies of it. BOARD ASST.: I'll make it, Gerry, that's PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 alright. I've got the machine on so I can -- MRS. MOORE: He's gonna go make the copies so -- sorry about that. Alright, sorry about that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. MRS. MOORE: Good, thank you. Alright, since our last meeting, again, we listened to your comments. What we had to do is to make sure that we could get an approvable sanitary system. So with Joe Fischetti's help they excavated and were able to place the leeching pool and we'll be amending our Health Department approval to reflect the new location for the sanitary. Is that correct, Joe? Okay. That enabled us to bring the house to as close to conformity as we could, which would be a 40-foot front yard setback. We do have the legal side yard setbacks and, of course, to try to put the pool in such a location where it no longer had to be in a side yard. It is behind the house, but all structures are now at at least the closest point 75-feet from the top of the bluff and if you recall from our last meeting when my client purchased the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 property the surveyor had the top of the bluff identified approximately 20 feet more seaward of where, when Joe and I got involved we felt that, because of the topography, we should take a more conservative approach to the top of the bluff. So we have the 75 feet now and I know that there were some discussions about what is approvable by this Board. We actually did better than some of the numbers that we were hearing because we could. So we came back, we're coming back to you with a proposal that we believe is certainly more conforming, is approvable by this Board, is, in fact, much more conservative than the surrounding properties. I do have an aerial photograph that shows the property to the east, which is when you went out to the -- see our house it was staked for you and you could see that the home and the pool are all actually landward of the neighboring homes. The house I saw Ms. Couture, who is here today. Correct? Oh, you're Ms. DuPont. MS. DUPONT: No, she faxed the letter. (Inaudible) work. MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. Oh, she faxed a Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 letter. Okay, She sent proposal, but I apologize. a letter again opposing our I would point out that please look at the -- it doesn't take much, but look at our aerial photograph. You see that her property has a significant second dwelling on the water, on the beach plus has quite a large house up very close to the top of the bluff. It is significantly closer to the bluff than is even certainly our house and certainly much closer to the bluff than our proposed pool. I see Mrs. DuPont here, correct? MS. DUPONT: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Hi. And I would also point out that the aerial photograph shows her property and her property is equally developed close to the top of the bluff. There is also a gazebo and stairway. The gazebo is a significant structure that is right at the top of the bluff as well. Sorry, I get you guys confused, I'm sorry. She'll clarify the record because apparently the gazebo is on the other piece. BOARD ASST.: We're not able to get you on the record, I'm sorry. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: mike. MRS. MOORE: Okay. Cause you're not using the Alright, the gazebo is on Mrs. Couture's property to the east and Mrs. DuPont's property -- the problem is I have the aerial facing one way and the survey another - Mrs. DuPont's house has the beach house on the water and quite a large house right on top of the bluff. So the aerial also shows you the general development in the area and our house, as we pointed out, we are conforming with a 40-foot front yard setback and the house is now a much more conforming proposal. We do have the remains of a building that is at the top of the bluff. My client would like to just take down the portions of the building and just repair the -- it's on locust posts and just put a trellis on top of it. Not to any disturbance to it, but just retain what's there and provide for a trellis, just a sun- block for him. It is showing on the property as part of the Notice of Disapproval and he would like to keep that, if at all possible, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 but here are the aerials. surveys (inaudible). BOARD ASST.: It our file. MRS. MOORE: There you go. more pushed out view and then a view. For the record, Yatrakis, their son, You do have the goes in the left side of There's a (inaudible) I have Mr. and Mrs. and I have Angel Chorno the architect, and Joe Fischetti the engineer. We're all here to answer your questions. MEMBER SIMON: Just noting, I think maybe we all noticed this, remembering very well the vigorous discussion in the last hearing and being reminded of them in reading the transcripts of the last hearing is that there are significant, almost surprisingly significant changes in the revised proposal or what it was before and I think it would be worth mentioning to people who have concerns about this to ask the extent to which the revisions are responsive, adequately responsive to the letters that have been submitted in good faith by people here because I think that they do broaden the dialogue and Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 I think that's what we're here for is to give people the opportunity to exchange their thoughts and questions on this. I have no questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: been to the site a couple -- is there a way, at this present time, to get -- I have not recently been there -- to the remnants of the building without getting poison ivy? MRS. MOORE: What was the Whether you could what? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: to the building. MRS. MOORE: Oh, MEMBER WEISMAN: I have been, I have of times. Is there Whether you can get you can get to it. Oh, you can get to it. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, there is a path because we've had test holes that have had to be taken. So we've actually had more clearing. I think you can get to it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, cause the first time it was virtually impossible. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, when we were there the first time we were going through -- MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it wasn't. If you PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 question? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 were (inaudible) you can get there. If you don't mind getting slashed to death with -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the briars are little (inaudible), yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I will go back again on Saturday and take a look at it. MRS. MOORE: Alright, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're still looking for the LWRP. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we sent it to you in January. Do you have a record of it? MRS. MOORE: The LWRP? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. BOARD ASST.: Do you have it with you cause it's just not in the file. I'm hoping that they sent it to us. MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: it, but -- MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: I will look. It's possible we didn't get I'll look. I thought we did. It' s just like a one-page (inaudible) -- MRS. MOORE: It probably would be considered inconsistent cause when we first (inaudible) it was too close -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 BOARD ASST.: MRS. MOORE: feet. BOARD ASST.: a note on here it Yeah, yeah. -- and it's still within 100 Yeah. It was dated, I have was dated January or received January 2nd. MRS. MOORE: Well, I think (inaudible) BOARD ASST.: That file was all apart when we came in one day on a Monday. We'll find it. MRS. MOORE: January 2nd, yes, I have it. January 6, 2009, that was our original -- BOARD ASST.: That's the same (inaudible). Thank you, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pat, thank you. Thank you. Okay, what are we discussing in this as a recommendation? MRS. MOORE: Well, we have -- we will provide for the non-turf buffer at the top of the bank. I think, generally, that's something that the Trustees have required of US. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's briefly run over to the Soil and Water; do you have PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 240 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 that? MRS. MOORE: Yes, I have that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, this is the second paragraph, "It's determined the site with a home still in place and a new home was not yet begun. The area was cleared and staked. The top of the bluff and the majority of the property is heavily wooded. The base of the bluff was experiencing heavy erosion most likely due to the run-off or flow over the edge of the bluff and possibly ground water seepage towards the bluff face at clay end point." I guess that end. "Care must be taken during the demolition", okay, highest -- MRS. MOORE: Just to give you an update. We did, in the interim, my client did add some seeding to the top -- to the bluff face as part of the efforts to make sure that we continue to stabilize the bluff. We've had -- the problem, as you know, the existing conditions are there. Some of the problems of run-off is actually occurring from adjacent sites and the water run-off. When we are dealing with, when we do the development, obviously we have to maintain the run-off, the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 ZBA Town 'of Southold - April 23, 2009 drainage that is occurring on-site with drywells and the rest. So the problem is existing conditions sometimes we can't control adjacent development. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I had originally was what do your clients intend to do about the bluff itself, at present, or, you know, after construction? MRS. MOORE: Well, if you gave my client the option, he would love to put in a rock revetment at the bottom. Unfortunately, the DEC has alternative plans generally. They want us to seed the bank, see how that takes - - essentially prove that you need more aggressive action. So what we did is we did seeding. We've had various people looking at the, you know, what alternatives the -- the DEC doesn't want bulkhead. There is some ability to put some hardening of the structures with some rock revetment, but that's very limited. So we are looking at a very long process if we have -- down the line, would my client, obviously, want to protect the toe of the bluff for all eternity? Of course. That is his goal, but unfortunately PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSewice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 242 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 it is something that we cannot assure that the, I mean, that's why we have developed in such a way that we have a protected bluff and we are at a safe distance from the top of the bluff given, again, looking at the adjacent properties, how they are developed and many of the homes, well, in particular, the home that is next door to us that has the beach house down at the bottom with cement and the rest, that is a very hard structure, a hardening of the toe of the bluff that has been there probably since I would say certainly before zoning. So probably the '40s, I don't know if you know. MS. DUPONT: MRS. MOORE: MS. DUPONT: MRS. MOORE: history. Aside more -- we have Even before. Yeah, '30s or '40s. It's been there forever. Yeah. Well, forever in our from that, I don't know what done what is within our power to do immediately with the seeding. So -- and the drainage is all -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't know if that's gonna work, excuse me. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 243 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Well, again, water run-off is something that development cures. The conditions that are there right now is the water that is running off not from our development, it's just normal rainwater off the land. When we ultimately develop, we're actually going to solve any water run-off by our own action. So that in a sense development cures the run-off into the bluff. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: We can't control adjacent -- I suspect that the property owner Couture I think is for sale? Under contract. Okay, when that family, if and when they decide to develop the property differently, then at that point, hopefully, they'll be addressing roof run-off and drainage on that property, sooner than later. That property to the east will probably have the drainage cured sooner than the property owner to the west, unless the westerly property owner takes some action. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody else have any questions? Would you like to speak, ma'am? MS. DUPONT: Yes, I would. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 244 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MS. DUPONT: I am Beatrice owner to the west and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: state your name again. MS. DUPONT: Oh, O-N-T. BOARD ASST.: MS. DUPONT: Dupont, the We need you to Beatrice Dupont, D-U-P- Yes. Thank you, I have it. want to say something about the water run-off that Mrs. Moore just mentioned. It's not only the rainwater actually living there, I've been there for almost 20 years. A lot of erosion comes from the Sound eating into the bluff and (inaudible) and then the hill falls down. That's really much more problem than the water from the rain coming from the top of the bluff. I've experienced it and I'm lucky in a way that that house was built way before zoning happen as a big concrete wall and rock wall and that has helped and I've seen much less erosion on my property because of the rocks and because of the behind the beach house. beach house would not be concrete walls that's Otherwise, I think my here today because Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 245 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 really a lot of the erosion is the action of Long Island Sound at high tide and you can see that the cliff and {inaudible) property has crurabled from the -- you know, it comes. I've seen it happen, in fact, (inaudible) crumbled like a piece of cake right down to the beach. I have also some corament about the survey I have. I don't see a date on it, but on the survey I have I see the new building, so I assume it is the new, you know -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can look at mine. MS. DUPONT: I think it is the latest version I have. BOARD ASST.: We have extras. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here take mine, it's bigger anyway. MS. DUPONT: Thank you. Yes {inaudible) something. Mrs. Couture pointed something else to me, which I'd not noticed, it shows the top of the bluff and the gazebo being a few feet away from the top of the bluff. I think this map must be an old map because since then the ~op of the bluff has receded quite a bit and that picture of the gazebo of PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 246 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 Linda Couture and the neighborhood property showing that gazebo is now sitting right at top of the bluff, almost ready to fall into the bluff. Another thing that Mr. (inaudible) and I did last weekend we went on Mr. (Inaudible)'s property and we walked from the top of the bluff to where the marking for the pool is and Mr. (Inaudible) property has got posts every 10 feet from the top of the bluff and what we measured was not 75 feet from the top of the bluff where the pool is. So I think that is discrepancy there that has to be addressed and resurveyed. Also, given that the top of the bluff moves all the time and we are in a very erosion area and that's why we are all here and pretty much opposing anything within the 100 feet of the bluff. I think you got a letter faxed by Mrs. Couture because she could not be here today. Mr. (inaudible), my other neighbor, his wife is very sick and he probably had to take her to the hospital this afternoon so he couldn't come, but he said what he said at the last meeting still stands. Mr. (Inaudible), which is my other neighbor, Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 247 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 also. You see we all feel we live in such a fragile threatened area that hardly any structure (inaudible) is going to jeopardize the whole area. So we really would like the 100 feet to be respected. Another concern which on the map I don't see where the septic system is for that property. We are all concerned about a well placement where there is a septic tank or septic system that will be placed on that property and on the (inaudible) property there is mentioned on the map 'well to be abandoned' and Mrs. (inaudible) probably put it in a letter to you, this well has no -- is not going to be abandoned. There's no -- I don't know why it is marked on the survey as to be abandoned. So we all are concerned about where is the septic tank going to be and I know for a fact that while this property was on the market (inaudible) look at it and then they came to me also to see our cesspool stuff were and they just all walked away from the project saying, you know, with this kind of land, I mean, we are very limited as to what we can do with the zoning and, you know, I think there is a good reason to want to know Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 where the septic tank is, that is a very limited area we have to work with. I think that's pretty much it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Ms. Dupont. MS. want it. DUPONT: I have the picture if you I only made one copy (inaudible) picture and it shows (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MS. DUPONT: (Inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MS. DU?ONT: This is the property which used to be (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where is this picture taken now? MS. DUPONT: This is taken from my house, from my steps that (inaudible) property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MS. DUPONT: And that's a recent picture showing (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MS. DUPONT: It's taken from my steps. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. BOARD ASST.: Mrs. Dupont, the survey is on the map we just gave you -- not the survey, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the sanitary system. We're just getting it MRS. MOORE: It is BOARD ASST.: Yeah, MS. DUPONT: Okay. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, also. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: MS. DUPONT: BOARD ASST.: MS. DU?ONT: Yeah, we just gave you. also. showing on that one. we just gave you. we're just getting it If I could -- Sure. Yes, it's -- (Inaudible). (Inaudible). And that's also is the same structure where the old building is standing and you will be going there I understand Saturday, you will see there is pretty much one wall standing and it is practically 10 feet within the top of the bluff. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Right. MS. DU?ONT: And I think really, I think any structure there is not a good idea and I think I looked in the file and I saw letter from Mr. Levy who is the commissioner of Soil and Water who indicated that no structure should be built in place of that old house Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 250 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 because of the -- erosion going on. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MS. DUPONT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're ready. MRS. MOORE: comments and this between neighbors, Thank you. I appreciate the is not intended as a fight but I think we have to keep in perspective that Mr. and Mrs. Yatrakis as new property owners are being put into certain regulations that are so much more restrictive and compared to what is occurring next door and I think you should have in your file a record of what is occurring on her property and what they have to face. The first photograph that we have is -- these were taken by Mr. Yatrakis March 6, 2008 and the way that they are controlling their run-off is with illegal, because the Trustees usually issue violations to clients of mine that have done this, there are boards and cutting debris and this is -- this is not the way to maintain a bluff and this is what we are having to deal with so I do want to have -- MS. DUPONT: (Inaudible)? MRS. MOORE: Yes. The structure of the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 beach house is sitting on piles and the Trustees, Mr. Yatrakis told me that when the Trustees were out there they noticed that there was work that had been done under the beach house that was not approved. MS. DUPONT: Not at all. Not at all. MRS. MOORE: Well, that's what the Trustees -- MS. DU?ONT: Not at all. There was no work. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: We do have a photograph of the bluff and the structures that they have on their property in relation to ours and you can see at the top of the photograph where their house is which is right on top of the bluff and part of the problem of the erosion that is occurring on that corner is water run-off that is occurring on their property. If they had gutters and leaders and prevented the water from going down the bluff it would certainly improve the conditions for everyone in the neighborhood. MEMBER OLIVA: Whose property is that? MRS. MOORE: This is the woman who just Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 252 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 spoke, (inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, Ms. Dupont. MRS. MOORE: Again, this shows that the rocks that were placed at the beach looked like rocks that were -- did you get a DEC permit -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No -- MS. DUPONT: Excuse me. We had no work done. Everything that every work, everything that is there has been there ever since I bought the house. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MS. DUPONT: It has been there for 20 years. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MS. DUPONT: And I don't know what kind of work you're talking about. There has been no work done at all. MRS. MOORE: Okay. It might have been done by prior owners -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait a minute. This has got to be toward the Board, please. MRS. MOORE: Okay, sorry. But I think that the con~nents that are being made you have to place them in perspective where a client is Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 253 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 coming -- we've -- we have moved the house back, moved the pool. We have moved and done everything the Board has asked and there is nothing that can satisfy the neighbors other than not building on this property and the situation is quite different on their but that doesn't seem to be relevant property, to them. MS. DUPONT: What I want to say would be many years ago it was built there and today if there was a magic wand I could have the house moved back, I tell you I would because it's a real headache being that close to the water. Unfortunately, at the time when I bought the house I did not know what the problems were with the erosions, that they were that bad. It was something that was grandfathered but it was not my choice necessarily to have a house that close to the water. MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. We do have from -- you asked about -- do you have a survey BOARD ASST.: Gerry, with the septic on it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MRS. MOORE: We did have Costello look at Pugliese CourtRepo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 254 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the property back on '06 and what he identified is that -- I'll read it for the record. Mr. Joseph, Mr. -- UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Who is that the prior owner? UNIDENTIFIED: Prior owner. MRS. MOORE: Okay. "As per your request concerning erosion on the bluff at your Southold property, I have determined that the point of erosion was caused by water-related blowout. Since your request, I have looked at 16 other jobs caused by the same problem. That problem was a hydrostatic buildup caused by nine days of rain. The simplest solution would be to hydroseed both areas of erosion and redirect the water coming off the road. The cost of this solution is unknown. My suggestion to you is to contact Tim Coughey at Timothy Coughey Nursery to hydroseed the area." UNIDENTIFIED: We did. MRS. MOORE: Yes, we did. We -- oh, sorry, thank you. On April 11, '08 Costello Marine went back out to reinspect for Mr. Yatrakis, "As requested I am forwarding you PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 255 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 the information regarding the 18805 Sound Avenue (inaudible) which was originally sent to (inaudible) by George Costello." So he reaffirmed that the best solution here was hydroseeding and that is what (inaudible) did. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what you just did. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: Unless you want to talk about the sanitary, Joe said he doesn't have anything to add. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he was successful in doing it with the Health Department I suspect. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes. Well, yeah you better put that on the record. It's still in the process though, right? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not trying to elongate this hearing because we would love to get into the next hearing, but we're just trying to figure out if there is anything else that we have not asked and that is the only reason. We're not trying to bore anybody or Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 cause anybody any upsetment in my particular justification. MR. FISCHETTI: Joe Fischetti, professional engineer. Just a quite comment. I pretty much governed where everything was gonna go on this site when Mr. Yatrakis first bought this property. While the leeching pool location is probably the least optimal for Health Department approval cause it goes a little bit closer than I wanted to having it back towards where I had it in the backyard. When you originally asked to move the house I looked at it again and said, okay, I can, if we find good soil conditions in the front yard 70 feet from the adjacent well to the east and west is approvable. It is outside the area of influence of the wells to suck in the sanitary effluent and the effluent is going to the north. So I have gotten these approved and that's why I okayed this location. We actually found good soil 35 feet down and we installed the leeching pool under my direction. So what -- we don't have Health Department approval yet. We have to go Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 257 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 through the Board of Review still, but I have gotten these approved in these locations and I don't think there should be a problem and that's why it's there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Joe. MRS. MOORE: Thank you, Joe. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else? Any further questions? Anybody in the audience? Hearing no further questions, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 258 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 HEARING %6236 - Michael and Therese Hughes CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Hughes, thank you for your patience. This has been a very long -- we started out this morning, we should point out to you, with almost a 45-minute delay with an arraignment. So we really didn't get started until about 10 after 10. MS. HUGHES: I understand. I'm sorry I don't have any colorful pictures and drawings for you today, but I think I gave those to you before. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we got them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I did share with the Board, I believe it was the entire Board, but if I didn't, and with the Assistant Town Attorney, the frustration that existed between you and your prior attorney and I did offer to the Assistant Town Attorney the ability to swear you in, which I can do and have no problems with, I personally, honestly, believe you're telling me the truth and I'm sure that there are other people that are doing the exact same and I'm not speaking for them. So tell us what you'd like to tell us. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 259 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: scenario at the time? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MS. HUGHES: That's okay. to that. That goes back to -- Are we going back to that I -- only because - I can go back CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't I swear you in first? Raise your right hand. MS. HUGHES: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you solemnly swear the information you're about to give us is the truth to the best of your knowledge? MS. HUGHES: I do. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name. MS. HUGHES: Therese Hughes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Just quickly tell the Town Attorney what happened. MS. HUGHES: Okay. This goes back to my husband and I purchased this property somewhere around September of 2006, I think. At the time that we purchased the property there was a small dwelling and a mobile home on the property, which was listed on the CO. The mobile home, after closing on the property, Mr. Paul Caminetti was our attorney PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26O ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 at the time. He's now since retired. He's in Florida and no longer practicing. At the time after we closed on the property the previous owner Barbara (Inaudible) had given me a copy of her trailer rental permit and said you have to renew this. I said okay, no problem, fine and I went down to the Town Clerk's office to do that. As I think I stated previously, the woman that came to the counter, while she did say and I regret not getting her name to this day, but while she did say that she was not the person that normally handles the trailer permits, she -- I had it in my hand like kind of like this and she came over and she just plucked it out of my hand and stomped to the back of the office and threw it into the copy machine and then mumbled something to one of the other women there and then she came back and she flung it across the counter at me and she just said, "They're not transferable." And that was it. I didn't get an explanation of, you need to fill this out in order to do this for yourself or -- there was nothing. So I was PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 upset and I left and I went straight to Mr. Caminetti's office and I went in and I said I don't understand. We were under the impression, you know, we purchased a piece of property and we got a mortgage on this property. We did it the right way. We got the mortgage on an investment piece of property. We didn't tell them we were living on it. It's an investment property. The bank was aware of the fact that there were two rentable dwellings on the property and they gave us a mortgage based on the fact that we were going to be able to rent and get income from two dwellings. So this, of course, played a big part in our buying the property besides the fact that we owned the property, the business property next door and were consistently having problems with the previous tenants on the property. The police were there regularly. I don't think I gave you, I mean I have printouts from the Police Department of the regularity that they were called over there. There drug dealer that was living there, the Level III sex offender that was living there Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 262 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 and the constant fights and the abuse that we suffered as business owners. They would shoot out the windshields of our boats with Bebe guns and we could -- and these were customers' boats, you know, and we couldn't do anything because you couldn't prove it that they did it. So in any case, I'm sorry that I'm rambling -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The point being you don't live on the -- MS. HUGHES: I went back to Mr. Caminetti's office and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, you don't live on the business site? MS. HUGHES: No. And I went back to Paul's office and I went in and I was upset and I explained to him what had just transpired at the clerk's office and he said, wait a minute, I don't understand. He said, the trailer is on the CO, so why do you need a trailer permit for a dwelling that's listed on your CO? So he said as far as I'm concerned you don't need it, don't worry about it and so I went on from there. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 263 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 So I said okay, fine, and so I proceeded not to worry about it, I guess, until we were visited by the Town Code Enforcement Officer several -- but that was like two years later, I guess. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was Ed Forrester? MS. HUGHES: That was Ed Forrester, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who has since retired? MS. HUGHES: He has since retired. Yes. BOARD ASST.: There was a new trailer put on, you replaced the old one. MS. HUGHES: We replaced the mobile home and at the time that we did it we had -- we looked at the mobile home that was there. We're trying to, in my opinion, there wasn't anything I could do to clean that thing to make it livable for anybody that I would want to rent it to. I mean you have to take into consideration what was living in it. Okay, and what -- I wasn't going to be the type of landlord as the person that owned the property before me because they did no repairs. There was nothing, nothing was done to any of the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 264 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 buildings that were there. So, you know, we've had to -- we've come in and we have nice -- we replaced the mobile home. I was not aware there was a size limitation on a mobile home. We were trying to keep it smaller, but we couldn't find one smaller. We couldn't find a used one that we could afford to purchase that was as small as the one that was actually there and then I was told later that it should have been 40 square feet bigger or something so that it would have been 850 square feet and if I would have known that I would have gotten one a little bit bigger, but you know, we went to a lot of expense to replace the mobile home on the thinking that in Southold Town that there were other properties that had mobile homes on them and that when they get to their -- when they get beyond their useful life, they're replaced. I was not like a house, not like a house that you can do certain repairs on. You can't do certain repairs on a mobile home. So they have a useful lifespan and when that's used up they're replaced. So that's what we were going on and I Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 265 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 mean I regret not having gone down to the Building Department and discussing this with some people before we did it, but I wasn't, I really wasn't thinking that we needed a building permit for something that we didn't build. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just -- I have had no discussion with you regarding this and I'm gonna say this for the record. I had been in that mobile home five or six times basically bringing people out in an ambulance, in stretchers. Out of the mobile home in stretchers, okay, and it was a well-aged mobile home in pretty despicable condition inside. I'll just offer that for the record. MS. HUGHES: Thank you. I got about 10 feet into it and backed out, but -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Cooties. Cooties. MS. HUGHES: I couldn't -- it was not only the condition it was just the -- I don't think there was anything you were gonna get that odor out of. MEMBER WEISMAN: It wasn't very habitable. BOARD ASST.: I used to go by all the PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 266 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 time and say, oh my goodness, look at that place over there and then all of a sudden it was fixed up beautiful and -- MS. HUGHES: Well, I mean, you know, we try to pride ourselves that we've taken the first few homes, I mean, when you come into Mattituck, I mean, there's a couple of houses right after -- I keep wanting to say North Fork Bank Corporation, but it's Capital One. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MS. HUGHES: After the Capital One building there's, I think, three houses and then you start getting to our properties, which we've purchased to the west of this also, but that all really kind of came about in a bulk purchase from the previous owners at the time that they were selling it and the fact that we owned the boatyard next door and really concerned partly with the fact that when you run a commercial business that if someone were to come in and move in next door and we all know how everybody is, they come in, they move in and they move in knowing that they're next to a boatyard and then after they live there a couple of months they start Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 267 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 complaining that it's noisy or that the guys start working at 8:00 in the morning. So we thought it was in our best interest at the time to purchase it and fix it up. We've made it look nice. We've spent a lot of money to do it and we're really -- what we're asking the Board is to grant us a variance to accept the new mobile home and as a replacement of the old mobile home so I can get a revised CO. MEMBER SIMON: Let me say something about the problem, I at least and I think the rest of us are very sympathetic. We're sympathetic to people who act in good faith on the basis of inadequate legal advice. At first, we wondered whether you had been wrongly served by the Town Clerk's office. From what we have done in our research, that does not seem to have been the case. So I don't know, there is a problem and I don't know what -- how you're going to find your way through to the answer. Maybe this Board can help you, but there definitely are gonna be limitations to our own jurisdiction as to what kinds of things that we can actually -- because you're a consumer. You're also a business person and you're used Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 268 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 to having legal advice. What's the difference between a trailer, what's the difference between a building permit, what's the difference between a trailer permit and what's the difference between a second dwelling? These are crucial distinctions as far as our ability to make decisions and not be sued in State Supreme Court. MS. HUGHES: I understand. MEMBER SIMON: So I don't know what -- maybe we can figure out a way of doing this thing, but -- MS. HUGHES: But there's always been two dwellings on that property. MEMBER SIMON: But, technically, it's not clear by the definition whether a trailer substandard size, is a dwelling within the meaning of the Code. Someone people live in their trailers. call them second dwellings. is living in it, They don't MS. HUGHES: states that there MEMBER SIMON: MS. HUGHES: The CO -- I have a CO that is a main dwelling -- Yeah? -- with an accessory trailer and an accessory garage. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 269 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: That -- well that's the ticket. You see that's what's key because the way the Notice was written we've talked about this so that we could at what the problems are -- MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- least clarify exactly so we can address them. The Notice of Disapproval has defined this as a second dwelling on the premises and then the Code requires for the dwelling to be a minimum of 850 square feet, so then they said, but it is substandard as a second dwelling. MS. HUGHES: But there's really no code requirement for sizes of mobile homes in Southold Town. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right. MEMBER SIMON: That's because that dwelling -- MEMBER WEISMAN: But they are no longer - the Notice is very ambiguous because one moment they talk about a replacement of a mobile home, right, on your Notice of Disapproval and then you go down the page and it says the mobile home constitutes a second PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 270 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 dwelling unit and then you go down the page and it says the mobile home is less than 850 square feet. So I think we need to look at the way this Notice is written. Our jurisdiction is to act within the Notice of Disapproval. We can interpret that. We can ask for a revised Notice of Disapproval that clarifies things a little differently, you know, by talking with the Building Inspector. The easier way to do this is to get this defined as a mobile home where the 850 square feet goes away because it doesn't have that square footage requirement. UNIDENTIFIED: It doesn't? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, a mobile home doesn't have a, you know, a dwelling is a principle use, it has to be 850 square feet. An accessory mobile trailer or home does not - is not defined that same way. MS. HUGHES: I mean the house, the main dwelling on the property isn't 850 square feet, it may be 600 square feet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But that doesn't make a difference, you have a CO on it though. MEMBER WEISMAN: But you have a CO. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 271 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a preexisting nonconforming with a CO, so that's okay, but the permission as we understand it on the trailer on the premises disappeared when ownership was transferred. I think that's why you were rudely told this isn't transferrable. The -- what should have happened was a reapplication. MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- for a mobile home. It's not transferrable, but you can reapply for a mobile home on the premises. MS. HUGHES: And if they had done their job properly at the time -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You would have done that. MS. HUGHES: -- then I would have done that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MS. HUGHES: But it wasn't. I'm a little confused and I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm a little confused at what Mr. Simon said. MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. MS. HUGHES: Is that I was under the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 272 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 impression that somebody from the Clerk's office was going to be here and it sounds as if you've already made up your mind that I'm wrong in that situation. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, no. We had a discussion with the Clerk's office, okay -- MS. HUGHES: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and it appears that we don't know who the person was. MS. HUGHES: And as I said, because did you really think that anyone was going to admit to saying that? You know, I mean -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't -- you know what though? With all due respect, it doesn't get us anywhere. MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: It happened. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We understand what happened to you and I the way it happened. MEMBER WEISMAN: disbelieving you. believe you that that's Yeah, no one is CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, nobody's disbelieving you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 273 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's, she said, she said, and that doesn't get us anywhere. MS. HUGHES: Right and that's the way it's -- MEMBER WEISMAN: And right now we're trying to help -- MS. HUGHES: -- going to be. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- you solve the problem and I would like to say I have a great deal of respect for what you've done to upgrade the property and the neighborhood as a result. I believe, you know, without speaking for the Board, there is an understanding and appreciation of that effort that you've put in. MS. HUGHES: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: So -- but we have to operate within the jurisdiction of the Code. So we're trying to find definitions we can work with. Now, if this structure was not sitting on a slab, you know, and it looked as though it was more mobile, even though it's manufactured rather than stick-built, we may have a -- we would have a stronger case of defining it as a mobile home or trailer. I Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 274 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 think therein is the issue. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: How we can get this defined that way. MS. HUGHES: Well, I think -- MEMBER WEISMAN: And not as a second principle dwelling. MS. HUGHES: -- that it's still a mobile home. It may not be a -- it may not -- you can't, at this point, just hook it up to a vehicle and drive it away. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The point of the question is it's not necessarily sitting on a foundation, it's just sitting there. MEMBER WEISMAN: On a slab. MS. HUGHES: It's on a slab. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's on a slab so that there's not dirt underneath it and so on and so forth. So it's just sitting there. MS. HUGHES: No, it's on a -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's sitting on blocks and a -- MS. HUGHES: You can pull the skirting off and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 275 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: -- see clear through underneath. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Mobile homes, typically are not mobile, that's the fact. MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, that's not the crucial thing. One thing is what as far as I can tell, and there was no point in calling in the Town Clerk on this, is the error of the person who served you or mis-served you in the Town Clerk's office was not telling you anything wrong, but she didn't tell you what you needed to do, which is very sad, but I don't know what we can do about that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, what we can do now is look at how it can be addressed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, how we can resolve it. MEMBER SIMON: How we can resolve it or how we can go back -- BOARD ASST.: There are a lot of options and I know the Town Attorney wanted to speak to you on that, the options. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 276 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: something, Jen? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You want to say I was just going to say you -- all of the Board is 100 percent right as far as the Notice of Disapproval being unclear, but I also think there's some clarity that's required in the Code as well because it's silent as to whether mobile homes are dwelling units and that seems to be perhaps maybe an interpretation that the Building Inspector has made here, and, if that's the case, then we can come back here with an interpretation, but understand it will be precedent setting that mobile homes are -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: before. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: We've granted them Okay. And again, you'll have to forgive me because I'm somewhat unfamiliar, what is the difference between a house trailer and a mobile home? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let me just say this, okay, there are basically three specific things, okay. There is a house trailer, which has wheels, which you take to a specific site, okay, and utilize it and you Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 277 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 bring it back and you clean it. MEMBER SIMON: A camp trailer. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A camp trailer, okay. BOARD ASST.: You can sit it on wheels or you can sit it on a slab. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. There is a mobile home, okay, which in most cases has wheels underneath it, put blocks up underneath it on a temporary basis, similar to my discussion with you on the basis of why farmers and people who are nursery people want mobile homes for that particular purpose and they use those for the sole purpose of security of their property. BOARD ASST.: What's the called, a trailer? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's a trailer with wheels on it, but it's blocked underneath and then skirting those around it, okay? MEMBER SIMON: Those are usually mobile homes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're usually called mobile homes and the tires, in effect, are still there or they can be taken off so PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 278 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that they don't deteriorate, alright. There is virtually no difference between that and what Mr. and Mrs. Hughes own. MEMBER SIMON: Right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Because the Code exempts house trailers from being deemed dwelling units. It's silent as to mobile homes and if there's no distinction then this may be very easy. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, you go to a modular home -- MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, Jen, a modular home and a modular home is wide. you go to a double Two mobile homes put together with two sets of axles. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: MEMBER WEISMAN: It CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: fab. Like a pre-fab. is a pre-fab. It's like a pre- BOARD ASST.: square feet when CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: together it's easy because that 850 square feet then. They're usually over 850 you put two together. When you put two it's easy to make Yeah, they usually PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 279 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 run like 1050 or 1100 square feet. MEMBER WEISMAN: And those -- MS. HUGHES: That's what I -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Those constitute a dwelling unit. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Those constitute a dwelling unit. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's just where they're manufactured, they're not built on the site; they're dropped in. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The interesting part of those is they have no wheels. They come on prefabricated dollies. They pick them up with straps and put them on the site. Okay? MEMBER WEISMAN: They're often on a foundation -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: differentiation between -- MEMBER WEISMAN: -- a CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: foundation. MEMBER SIMON: BOARD ASST.: And so there's my crawl space. (inaudible) a not big enough and then it also could be a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 They're put up on blocks. It's not a dwelling, it's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 280 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 trailer. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying. You would put them -- those would frequently be put on usually blocks -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Put up on blocks. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- foundations. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Permanent foundations. MEMBER SIMON: Not on a foundation though. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Thank you for clarifying that. MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you perceive, as our Assistant Town Attorney, we may proceed with this in helping our applicant? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I would suggest we go back to the Building Inspector and try to talk with him about clarifying his Notice of Disapproval and perhaps, you know, maybe he can reclassify this perhaps as a house trailer. I don't know if that's possible, that would make it easier, but again he might not feel comfortable about doing that. BOARD ASST.: He might. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 281 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: He may also be able to say -- and then again if he comes back and says 'No, I don't -- I will not revise my Notice of Disapproval; I believe it is clear because I have made the determination that all mobile homes are dwelling units.' Then, I would suggest to the applicant that she come back to us for an interpretation of whether or not the Building Department's or the Building Inspector's interpretation of the Code is correct and, at that point, we may be able to give her relief and, you know, again we if it's not a dwelling unit she does not require the area variance that she's asking for. MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, suppose that Notice gets rewritten and defines it as a trailer, or a trailer house, a mobile home. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If it looks like it's a house trailer, then I don't even think -- I think she can just go get a trailer permit and just be done with it. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying, that would be the next step. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't believe she would even need to come back here because, and PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 282 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 again I don't know if that's possible for him to do that, but a house trailer is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Exempt. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It specifically says in the Code that it's not a dwelling unit. MEMBER SIMON: You can't live in it, it's only for (inaudible). ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so -- Let me just -- MEMBER WEISMAN: as mobile home? BOARD ASST.: question. What if this was defined I believe Gerry had a CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Le me just -- can you just hold that one second? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, why don't we just reverse the Building Inspector's determination, which we've done before? BOARD ASST.: Today with the one we have and interpret it now? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You can do that also, but again I would -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I think Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Sewice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 283 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 that's easiest -- MEMBER WEISMAN: For the applicant. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- like you to think about the implications and the precedent setting before you do that and I don't know how often these types of situations -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very rarely. MEMBER WEISMAN: Very rarely, if ever. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Because now what you're saying is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the first one in 28 years. MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, do you have specs on the mobile home? MS. HUGHES: Yeah, they were actually given in on the first application. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, then we have it. You submitted them. MS. HUGHES: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: that I'll look. MS. HUGHES: I have them, but I you all have them also. think MEMBER WEISMAN: because (inaudible}. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Let's look at the specs The problem we also Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 284 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 have is the paperwork because she's applied for a variance. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: She will have to apply to you for an appeal of the interpretation, asking you to revise the interpretation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: The other -- this is not the first time that we've considered the possibility of basically overruling the Notice of Disapproval. This is the first time of this particular type, where we want to somehow set aside the Notice and that's not new and that maybe a dangerous precedence, too. BOARD ASST.: You could modify -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Terry, you don't have to give it to us now, you can give it to us later. MS. HUGHES: I think that actually -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was it? MS. HUGHES: Yeah, is that what you're looking for? But, I know that you got that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll make a copy of it. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 285 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, I was looking more for the structure of it. I mean, that's the floor plan and it's kind of defined as a modular, a 16-foot-wide modular here on the floor plan. MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: We're looking for something that shows that it's sitting on blocks, you know what I mean? MS. HUGHES: Well, we -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Which would help us interpret this as a -- MS. HUGHES: -- skirted it to make it -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Look nice. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MS. HUGHES: -- look nice and I think you have these photos as well, but I mean there is -- it's sitting on concrete slab underneath because you would see all the pipes and we did the appropriate tie-downs into the cement. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MS. HUGHES: So that it won't blow away in a hurricane -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the purpose of the cement. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 286 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: It'll probably last better than a -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Than a wood house. If you took the skirting off and what would you see? Are there blocks down there? MS. HUGHES: If you took the skirting off what you're gonna see actually is the trailer. It's still sitting on the trailer, I mean, the CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The steel framing of the trailer. MS. HUGHES: -- the steel frame of the trailer. So we all thought (inaudible) to what it (inaudible). MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: How big a deal is it to take some of that skirting off and photograph that? Is it a big deal, cause if it isn't a big deal -- MS. HUGHES: You just want to see the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: If you show us the steel trailer structure, with the wheels on it -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The wheels aren't on it now, it's sitting on -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's okay that Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 287 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 this is where the wheels go. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The axles were there. MEMBER WEISMAN: The axles that, okay, this was where the wheels go. MS. HUGHES: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: So this was wheeled in, in place, and tied down -- MS. HUGHES: (Inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, of course. MEMBER SIMON: They're not wheeled in, they're dropped. That's what I was saying before, they're never wheeled. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Alright, but you see what I'm getting at? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. This was wheeled in. MS. HUGHES: It MEMBER WEISMAN: was wheeled in. Yes. Going by Gerry's comments, if we have documentation in the file to show that this is sitting on a trailer and tied into the slab, then we really can, I believe, define it as a trailer. MEMBER SIMON: You need -- she can just apply for a permit. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 288 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you just -- we reverse this determination, we interpret it -- ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That it's a mobile home. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- into a trailer home. MS. HUGHES: Okay, I guess I'm still confused on -- MEMBER WEISMAN: for a trailer permit. And then you go apply MS. HUGHES: Okay, problem doing, but I guess point of if it's on the CO MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MS. HUGHES: -- I still permit? BOARD ASST.: trailer you had. which I don't have a I'm confused on the as a house trailer need a trailer That was for the other MEMBER SIMON: That is no longer in effect because it is not -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not transferrable. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: COs are not transferrable (inaudible). PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 289 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: No, I understand. At the -- okay, my understanding of the procedure when at the time, in the Building Department it was Damon that I was working with -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MS. HUGHES: -- and Damon was the one that I think wrote the Notice of Disapproval. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MS. HUGHES: Of course he's now changed positions, he's the Code Enforcement Officer, but at the time that he did that, I know that he -- I think he struggled with the wording on that quite a bit as to how exactly to word that, but I think my understanding was that I was to come to the Zoning Board and get a variance for that and that I was to go back to the Building Department and they were going to issue me a new CO with a new trailer on it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. We were just gonna say that it complied and therefore, you would have to go back to the Building Department again. We never issue COs. MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, we -- MS. HUGHES: No, no, no. Not that you wish the CO, but that if I got the -- when I PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 290 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 got the approval for the variance -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That it was a replacement of an accessory mobile home. MS. HUGHES: -- that it was a replacement of the other one that I would go back to the Building Department and then they could -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the problem. MS. HUGHES: -- issue -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You see the Notice of Disapproval that he struggled to write is not written in a way that would actually permit what you were told you should do. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Because it says there's a second dwelling unit on the property, which is illegal. MS. HUGHES: I know that, yeah, which is really not correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: We're trying to figure out the fastest, easiest and cheapest way -- MS. HUGHES: I appreciate it, I do. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, look, here's one possibility. It says for a renewal for a permit for an as-built replacement mobile home. Okay, now is mobile home defined the same as trailer? Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 291 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes. Mobile home or trailer. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, then if we say that's correct, but -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- we can overrule or overturn the fact that it constitutes a second dwelling, which is substandard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm saying, reverse that. MEMBER SIMON: Which is the same as saying the C of O is irrelevant. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: When you have a permit, you don't have a C of O and vice versa. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: So what you want is a permit. MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe we have all the (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we're giving, by the nature of the zoning application, we're giving him a permit. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're saying it's PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 292 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 in compliance and reversing the rest of the disapproval that the Building Inspector -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Then you can go and get a permit for a trailer. You're done. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: You don't have to get a CO. MEMBER SIMON: The old C of O is dead anyway. So you'd only have to worry about applying for a permit. MS. HUGHES: Right, but I guess I'm showing some concern. I'm showing concern in that, eventually, I want a CO at some point in my -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will get a CO. MS. HUGHES: What? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGERi You will get a CO. MS. HUGHES: Well, that's what I'm asking. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what you will get. MS. HUGHES:' I will get a new CO that's going to -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. They'll inspect it and tell you if this has to be done PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 293 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 or that has to be done, but -- MS. HUGHES: So I would get the trailer permit and then -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it has nothing to do with trailer permit. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, wait, wait. I'm confused. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You -- BOARD ASST.: It won't be a second dwelling. MS. HUGHES: Okay, no. BOARD ASST.: It won't be a second dwelling. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, say accessory mobile home. MEMBER SIMON: And you get C of Os -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course. MEMBER OLIVA: You do? MEMBER SIMON: We only get C of Os for dwellings. MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait, wait. Let's be sure about that. BOARD ASST.: Any structure, any structure. Jennifer wants to say something. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 it's gonna 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 294 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I believe if you want to be able to go back and get a CO that reflects that there's a permitted mobile home use as an accessory on the property, then you CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. -- should actually when you're doing the Notice of Disapproval, in your findings, you should make it clear that this is accessory to the dwelling unit that's on the property. Then she should be able to go get the CO for an accessory mobile home. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's good. That's exactly right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So you won't be just making her just get a trailer permit because at that point if she shows up and asks for a CO with just a trailer permit, they're gonna say, no, we're not gonna put it on your CO, you just have to keep renewing the permit. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's what she does not want to do. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: She does not want that. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 295 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't want you to. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think that's the proper way to do it. MS. HUGHES: No. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You can -- you probably can find in your own interpretation make certain that it's an accessory. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, look, you've just been sworn, so you can testify before us that, in fact, this structure is sitting on a trailer, a steel trailer. MS. HUGHES: Yes, it is. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, which is obscured from view, but with axles for wheels, which is obscured by the skirting. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that's what you said. So -- MS. HUGHES: Yes and that's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- She's still under oath. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: If if you're under oath. Still under oath. you testify to that, we probably don't need photographs. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: Here's the question Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 296 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 have, maybe I'm confused. C of Os apply to things other than dwellings like garages for example, but a garage is not a dwelling unit and if you are planning to rent this for someone to dwell in, then you have an additional problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why? MEMBER SIMON: Because it's not a dwelling. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it is. It's a CO for an accessory mobile home. MEMBER SIMON: How -- what's the difference between -- I thought we were just saying that a C of 0 is applied for any accessory building, but not all accessory buildings are dwellings. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's an accessory trailer building. MEMBER SIMON: And, therefore, is an accessory trailer building a dwelling? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's an accessory structure to the principle dwelling. MEMBER SIMON: But then it may not be used as a dwelling unit. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 297 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure it can. Sure. MEMBER SIMON: You may not be able to rent it anymore than you can rent your garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure you can. MEMBER WEISMAN: Trailers are not the same as garages. Trailers are not defined the same as a garage. MEMBER SIMON: If it isn't a dwelling and it isn't like a garage, but it has a C of 0 what rental rights do you have for it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have the same rental rights as any other dwelling -- MEMBER SIMON: But we agreed that it wasn't a dwelling. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- any other mobile home, okay -- MEMBER SIMON: This is peculiar to mobile homes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, it's only to mobile homes. It's not -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Mobile homes are dwelling, but they are not defined as principle dwellings. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that is correct. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 298 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: They are accessory and it is a permitted use in an accessory structure that is a trailer or a mobile home. MEMBER SIMON: And that means for example, that -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that right? MEMBER SIMON: -- if you wanted to rent out a property on your property you could make it into a trailer and you could rent it to tenants, by that logic. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's true. BOARD ASST.: permitted use. MEMBER SIMON: - I find it really It's (inaudible) a It says it's a permitted - (inaudible) that they're the only accessory non-dwellings, supposedly inhabitable. BOARD ASST.: MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER SIMON: How does that (Inaudible). It would be, which are but I don't ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What's the zoning Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 know that we can invent that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think we go as far as we can go and that's it. Okay and if - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 299 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 district, by the way, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: thing, R-40. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I'm sorry? R-40. Yeah, it's on the Okay, thank you. BOARD ASST.: it's R-40. ASST. the -- It says on the Disapproval TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't have any of MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a goal here that we're gonna try and write this finding in a way that would allow you to go ahead and not have to deal with the Building Department anymore and we're gonna try to write this so that you can just go ahead and get a CO for this structure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She has to go to the Building Department to get the CO. MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course, after we do the findings. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: question is -- Okay, now the MEMBER SIMON: Are you saying that -- Just so I'm clear, Gerry, the policy is if you have an accessory building and it's not a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3OO ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 dwelling, but if it's a trailer or you call it a trailer, then you could rent it as if it were an accessory habitable building on your property? BOARD ASST.: She had a CO, though, there was a CO. MEMBER WEISMAN: That was on the old (inaudible) building. BOARD ASST.: But that doesn't say and it doesn't recreate what she had. MEMBER OLIVA: No, it doesn't say. MEMBER SIMON: (inaudible) to get her a new CO. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, nobody else probably in Town has that same situation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, most of them are gone. There's one up on the North Road in Greenport that has it. Almost across from Morris Lane, they came in and they asked us to replace and it was a relatively small piece of property. MEMBER SIMON: I worry about (inaudible) category. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse my back (inaudible). PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 301 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Can we let you can go now? I feel like we're holding you hostage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know that you're leaving in the near future, but -- BOARD ASST.: The hearing is open, by the way. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, let's discuss this after, after the hearing is closed. BOARD ASST.: Cause the tape is going. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the question is what do you want to do with this? MEMBER WEISMAN: Close the hearing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, close the hearing? MEMBER WEISMAN: There's nothing else to -- we will rule on this variance application. MEMBER SIMON: Somehow or other. MEMBER WEISMAN: We will figure it out. MS. HUGHES: Okay. MEMBER OLIVA: Somehow. MS. HUGHES: I thank you. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to hear the audience comments? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 302 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 MS. HUGHES: I was expecting all these people to be here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER OLIVA: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 303 ZBA Town of Southold - April 23, 2009 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was prepared using four-track electronic transcription equipment and is a Hearings. Signature ~ true and accurate record of the Denise Gasowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: May 3, 2009 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355