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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK:
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
April 24, 2008
9:37 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney
ABSENT:
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24,
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2008
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Paulette Garafalo and Thomas Giese #6143 3-7
Christopher and Evelyn Conklin #6155 8-21
John Van Gelder #6148 22-37
Donald Hohn #6149 38-84
James Meskouris #6142 85-108
CJC1 Corp. #6146 109-140
Michael Kenin #6153 141-151
Lia Polites and Kevin Ferro #6129 152-176
Kurt Freundenberg and Janet Latham #6121 177-180
Paul and Maureen Cacioppo ~6127 181-189
Greg and Karmen Dadourian #6131 190-211
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order.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24,
2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Motion?
BOARD MEMBER:
BOARD MEMBER:
Call meeting to
So moved.
Second.
HEARING #6143 - Paulette Garafalo
and Thomas Giese
MEMBER OLIVA:
~Request for a Variance under Section
280-122, based on the Building Inspector's
January 18, 2008 Notice of Disapproval and ZBA
Code Interpretation #5039 (Walz) concerning
proposed additions and alternations to an
existing single-family dwelling which will
result in an increase in the degree of the
existing front yard setback nonconformance, at
less than 50 feet. Location: 90 Sterling
Road, Cutchogue; CTM 104-4-4.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who's here for
that? Yes, would you kindly come up to the
mike, sir, and state your name for the record?
MR. GIESE: Tom Giese.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
The nature of this application, to my
knowledge, is the fact that the house is
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
nonconforming in reference to its front yard.
It's my understanding that you're going to put
a gable roof over the top of the garage or a
gable end roof --
MR. GIESE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- over the top of
the garage.
MR. GIESE: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One thing I didn't
see in the plans and maybe you can answer for
us the enclosure and pulling out the front
door to the end of the --
MR. GIESE: Right to the front.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How big is that?
MR. GIESE: The total is about 16 square
feet. It's an existing stoop that would
become a master bath with a bedroom.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, yeah. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would become a
what, sir?
MR. GIESE: A master bathroom, well, part
of a master bathroom for a downstairs bedroom.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So where is the
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
front door going to be then?
MR. GIESE: The front door will be
approximately 10-15 feet to the
There'll be three French doors.
here if you need it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that.
MR. GIESE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We were just
unaware of what the actual -- I got a copy
that I couldn't measure appropriately and
that's why I asked the question.
MR. GIESE: I have copies here if you
need them.
CHAIRM3~N GOEHRINGER:
just couldn't measure it
left of that.
I have a copy
I remember seeing
the scale on my rule to measure it.
MR. GIESE: Oh, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no problem.
Thank you.
MR. GIESE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else?
MEMBER OLIVA: No, it's really a very
minor --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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We have a copy, I
and I couldn't find
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24,
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
straightforward,
addition.
MR. GIESE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Board Member.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
It's very
very minimal kind of
Wait, one more
You' re just
expanding
that is
street?
MR.
it by 16 square feet, correct, and
-- is that in the direction of the
GIESE: It will come out, but --
MEMBER SIMON: It goes sideways,
actually, it's just extending the --
MR. GIESE: It doesn't encroach the
street any further.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, so it does not
increase the front -- decrease the front
setback of that building, but just for that
extension, right?
MR. GIESE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: I have no other questions.
MR. GIESE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else would like to speak in favor or against
this application?
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Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
HEARING #6155 - Christopher and
Evelyn Conklin
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116B, based on the Building Inspector's
April 2, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
proposed additions and alterations to the
existing dwelling which will be less than 75
feet from the bulkhead, at 3400 Ole Jule Lane
at James Creek (dredged canal), Mattituck; CTM
1000-122-4-20.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. and Mrs.
Conklin, how are you today?
MR. CONKLIN: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just
state your name for the record?
MR. CONKLIN: Christopher and Evelyn
Conklin.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. What would
you like to tell us?
MR. CONKLIN: What we're trying to do is
come up with the best plan for the house on
the existing footprint and to not add any
additional footprint to the house and to
provide for my family to be able to improve
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the home.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you,
you were very gracious when I came over to
show me the house and my discussion with a
fellow Board Member also, we do appreciate
that. Unfortunately, yesterday we received
this second Notice of Disapproval, which
reflects the setback from the bulkhead and we
did put it in the mail, but it didn't get to
you timely.
MR. CONKLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to ask
Ms. Weisman if she -- she is our resident
member and architect. I'm putting her on the
hot seat, I'm just asking her if she would --
has anything that she would like to discuss
regarding this application and --
BOARD ASST.: Member Oliva just mentioned
that there is no CO for the deck.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'm sorry, we have a
problem with the setback and we also have the
problem that we discovered while reviewing it
yesterday, unfortunately, that you have a CO
for one part of the deck, but not for the
other part of the deck.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
all.
MRS. CONKLIN: We didn't realize that at
MEMBER OLIVA: I'm not saying you did,
I'm just telling you we ran into that problem,
which does present one other little glitch.
BOARD ASST.: The additional variance.
MEMBER OLIVA: Could you read the Notice
of Disapproval, Gerry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
The new one?
Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It just -- it really
just adds the deck, the setbacks and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it does.
MEMBER OLIVA: It does, cause I didn't
see it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: ~The proposed
construction of this nonconforming 35,220
square foot lot is not permitted pursuant to
Article 22 Section 100-280A-116B which states
all buildings located upon which alternate
concrete riprap or similar structure exists
adjacent to tidal water bodies other than
Sounds shall be not less than 75 feet from the
bulkhead. New construction is noted at 50
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
feet from the existing bulkhead as-built decks
are noted to 37 feet from the bulkhead."
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, that's why because
the original Notice of Disapproval had 55 feet
and we started to look at it yesterday and the
plans said 50 feet and said, which is it? You
know, we have to be very precise so that
there's no discrepancy in the record so that
you know and we know just what you're going to
do.
MRS. CONKLIN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question was
when we were over and we saw your decks, of
course, there's no question they are in very
poor condition, which you're aware of. You
don't even use them. Are you anticipating the
reconstruction of those decks in place in
kind?
MR. CONKLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just as they exist
today?
MR. CONKLIN: Yes.
MRS. CONKLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I think, from my
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
perspective the proposed architectural
additions are very straightforward. The
primary issue can be boiled down to a couple
of things. We now have to address the change
in setbacks that were Noticed and potential
resolution of the Certificate of Occupancy,
but those are mechanical details that we can
work out beyond the hearing. My question, I
actually paced it off, because it wasn't
Noticed, the deck setback. I realized the
house was set back from the bulkhead much more
than the deck so now we understand exactly
what that dimension is at 37 feet. It wasn't
noticed on your survey either, so it's good
that we have that information now.
It would appear that you're only
increasing the footprint of the existing house
minimally on the front elevation toward the
street; is that correct?
MR. CONKLIN: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's no change in the
existing setback from the bulkhead, it's all
footprint landward of that area.
MR. CONKLIN: Correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, you're going to
put
on a new roof over part of the existing house,
which will remain one-story and another
addition will be two-story.
MEMBER OLIVA: With a garage.
BOARD ASST.: There's a little more than
that. They wanted to explain a little bit
about the garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: On the survey it had two-
story addition over the garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right. They're not doing
that.
BOARD ASST.: It may be a half-story.
Mr. and Mrs. Conklin wanted to explain
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well (inaudible)
drawings are showing me at the moment. Why
don't we go ahead and the main thing would be
today to clarify exactly what your wishes are
and what the legal circumstances that we have
to follow to help you get what you want; if
that's doable.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
So why don't you tell us more about these
plans.
MR. CONKLIN: As built to the plan, the
original submission was a rough drawing by
John Metzger on the survey to the Building
Department on the proposed second story
addition and I apologize for my ignorance of
what constituted a second story and over the
garage being it's only a five-foot knee wall,
I believe it qualifies as a half-story. So
that's the mistake on my part.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so over the
garage it's a half-story. Okay. That's the
description, but it doesn't change any of your
plan. Your plan --
MR. CONKLIN: Right, it --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Your tentative plans are
reading as half-story.
MR. CONKLIN: Correct. The application
on the survey, the original application to the
Building Department --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, (inaudible).
MR. CONKLIN: Correct.
BOARD ASST.: It's only on the survey, I
believe --
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ZBA Town of
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I didn't pay much
attention to the survey, actually. I was
looking at the plans and the architectural
plans show it as a
the elevation, the
MR. CONKLIN:
story and a half based on
height.
Over the garage, correct?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the rest is two-
story.
MR. CONKLIN: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so disregard the
notation on the survey by Metzger dated --
what's the date on this stamp? The last date
was April 4, okay.
MR. CONKLIN: 2008.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's let the record
show that the notation on the proposed second
story addition, which is going to be the
garage, is inaccurate and that the
architectural plan by Peter Podlas, P-O-D-L-A-
S, dated 03/08 on A5, page 5 of 5 are correct.
Is that right?
MR. CONKLIN: That's correct, as built
per plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we should add that
in terms of the context of the neighborhood,
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
you know, we are familiar with the house on
the one side that is actually a three-story
house.
MRS. CONKLIN:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It's a three-story.
And the house, your
other neighbors on the other side certainly is
much larger and taller than yours and you have
a very oddly shaped piece of property. Very
lovely side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nice view also.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes and a wonderful
view. So it's certainly, as far as I can see,
it's very much in keeping with the character
of the neighborhood, which is one of the
conditions that we have to take into
consideration.
I really don't have any other questions
or anything that needs clarification other
than to say that I assume that you're quite
convinced that your architect is certain that
your existing first floor is structurally
sound enough to support a second story. So
that you're really renovating, you're not
tearing things down particularly; is that
correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. CONKLIN: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Substantively, I have no
problem at all. I just have a question about
procedure. As I understand this, with this
late discovery of the as-built -- the
nonconformity of the as-built deck, which
ordinarily would require a variance by itself.
I mean, for example, if you had not
recommended this, if you were selling the
property as is and not doing the improvement a
cycle variance would have to be given just for
that specific deck in order for the person to
get the C of O for that and that would be
properly noticed, it would be in a whole
statement about what was going to be asked for
and there'd be a hearing on it.
Now, the issue is it may not be an issue
at all, I sort of would hope that there is no
issue, but strictly speaking, we may be in a
situation where we're granting a variance for
the as-built deck without there being a full
hearing on that and that may be a technical
matter, which the legal counsel might have to
deal with. As I say, we could not predict
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ZBA Town of
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what seems likely that that application for
the variance for the variance for the as-built
deck would be successful, but it is a glitch.
That's all.
BOARD ASST.: If I could just mention
that, the legal notice was advertised it did
cover the as-built
proposed addition.
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
areas as well as the
It did?
Yes. It did not limit them
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
Thank you.
MR. CONKLIN:
Yeah.
That's good to know.
They're okay on that.
What is of importance to us
at this point, prior to zoning,
permit process --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
the lengthy
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to a certain setback.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh okay.
BOARD ASST.: That's in the paperwork and
it wasn't a new discovery, all the information
was already in the file --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, it's in there. So
we're clear on that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. CONKLIN: -- unforeseen, has led to
our house becoming in a state of disrepair.
The roofs are beyond the state of disrepair,
they are non-repairable a~ this point.
MEMBER OLIVA:
underneath?
MR. CONKLIN:
MRS. CONKLIN:
Putting buckets
We have them, believe me.
We've done that. We've
tried to repair them and --
MR. CONKLIN: Each and every rainstorm
and knowing that my only plea, at this point,
would be for the Board to expedite their
decision based on the deterioration of my
house. I had no idea it was going to take me
four years in the permit process, prior to
Zoning. It's been a lengthy uphill battle.
thank the Board for all their help in
answering our questions along the way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One question I
never asked you is, do you have any basement
underneath this house at all?
MR. CONKLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You do.
MR. CONKLIN: Yes.
I
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is it a full-
length basement or is it --
MR. CONKLIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I just --
MR. CONKLIN: It's actually dry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's actually dry,
that's amazing. Wonderful, actually.
MR. CONKLIN: It is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll see if
anybody else has any comments either in favor
or in opposition and then we'll close the
hearing.
MEMBER OLIVA: Just to mention there are
quite a few letters of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, a substantial
amount of letters in favor of --
MEMBER OLIVA: -- your application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- your
application.
MRS. CONKLIN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
back.
MRS. CONKLIN:
We love our neighbors.
They obviously love you
We actually have neighbors
right here, John and Amy Wood are in support
of our project. They've been great.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. CONKLIN: Thanks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you.
Is there anybody
else who would like to speak in favor of this
application?
Is there anybody who would like to speak
against the application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6148 - John Van Gelder
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
~Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
January 16, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed new dwelling, after
demolition of the existing building, with
front yard setbacks at less than the code-
required 35 feet. Location of Property: 10
Hickory Road and Chestnut Road, Southold; CTM
54-6-14."
Mr. Fitzgerald, how are you? Would you
state your name for the record, sir?
MR. FITZGERALD: Good morning.
MEMBER OLIVA: Your name, sir?
MR. FITZGERALD: Jim Fitzgerald for Mr.
and Mrs. Van Gelder who are here.
I think that the most significant thing I
can tell you about the project, which of
course is shown in the papers that you have,
is that the faces of the proposed structure
that will replace the existing building are in
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the same location as the corresponding faces
of the existing building. So that the
setbacks of the street front yard and the dirt
front yard remain the same
road right-of-way
as they are now.
MEMBER OLIVA:
house bigger, right?
the
You're just making the
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER OLIVA:
old one?
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Yes.
And you're demolishing
Yes.
Going from scratch.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This includes the
new foundation, too, Jim?
MR. FITZGERALD: Sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: New foundation?
MR. FITZGERALD: My hearing device broke.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, stand right
there, that's fine.
It includes a new foundation or are you
using the new foundation?
MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know. Would you
know the answer to that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait, we need you
to use the microphone.
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ZBA Town of' Southold - April 24, 2008
BOARD ASST.: And give your name please.
MR. VAN GELDER: John Van Gelder.
Currently there is no foundation on the house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh really?
MR. VAN GELDER: No, the house previously
was located at another site. It was moved to
this site many, many years ago. It's on
blocks and cinder blocks.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. VAN GELDER: And wood stilts. So
it's on the dirt ground. There's a small
foundation where the oil burner is, but that's
maybe a 6 by 12 room. The rest of the house
is just above the earth. So it's a --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's a
relatively easy demo then?
MR. VAN GELDER: It's a relatively easy
demo and the original part of the home is
very, very old. So it's severely compromised
by termites and dry rot. So we were unable to
renovate, go up or out or anywhere. The only
alternative we have was to demolition the
house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Looks pretty. It's a nice
setting.
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MR. VAN GELDER: It's a beautiful piece
of property. Unfortunately the shape of the
property restricted us where we could put the
house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. VAN GELDER: With all the setbacks
for the lines because of the preserve on one
side, the right-of-way, and the front yard.
So we would have had -- if we moved the house
we would have had to put it in a situation
where it would reduce the back yard and we
would have had to expand the driveway. It
would have been a longer waterline cause we
want to go to Town water. So for economics,
we thought if we stayed on the same footprint
we would reduce a lot of the issues cause we
didn't want to have to encounter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just
spell your name for the -- oh you have it.
You are the applicant.
MR. VAN GELDER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I didn't know
that. You said the last name quickly.
MR. VAN GELDER: Oh, I'm sorry.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
problem.
MR. VAN GELDER:
the applicant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
No, it's no
Yeah, I'm the owner and
Anything else?
It's a lovely site
and I was just wondering just how you -- I
didn't know, you know, just how you were going
to do everything.
MR. VAN GELDER: Yeah, well --
MEMBER OLIVA: Because it really is
long.
MR. VAN GELDER: It looks long because
that little room on the end and then the
little deck, but basically the house is only
going to go --
MEMBER OLIVA: You have that staked over
there.
MR. VAN GELDER: It's staked in the back
as to where the house is going to go out and
that's restricted because we can only go so
far to the preserve behind us.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. VAN GELDER: And we're only going
north a couple of feet, so really it's not
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
going to be much bigger than it is now. It's
going to go out a little further in the back.
MEMBER OLIVA: Nice spot. Good luck.
MR. VAN GELDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
and also up.
MR. VAN GELDER:
Thank you.
It will go out slightly
Yes, ma'am. It's going
up, yeah. A story-and-a-half, I believe, is
how they labeled it. I'm not sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's -- I'd have to look
that up.
MR. VAN GELDER: Okay, I'm not sure on
the terminology.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It was really a
a two-story or
statement that it's going to be
one and a half story house.
MR. VAN GELDER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you are
retaining all of the setbacks that are
virtually the same, literally the same, in
fact.
MR. VAN GELDER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would appear the
house may be very slightly -- the new house
may be at a slightly different angle than
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what's existing; is that incorrect, or is it
exactly the same?
MR. VAN GELDER: It's the same.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The walls are exactly
the same orientation to the --
MR. VAN GELDER: Yes, the front and side
walls are the same. The back is going to jut
out a little bit on the one side and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, to just clarify.
MR. VAN GELDER: -- the north side will
be extended further towards that backyard
line, but the overall footprint, if you look
at the plan, you'll see where the dotted line
is and where the solid line is.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. VAN GELDER:
difference will be.
Right.
That's where the
It's not much of a square
foot addition in the size of the home.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The first floor looks
like it's going to be proposed as 2,060 square
foot or -- oh, that
MR. VAN GELDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
would include the garage?
Yes, ma'am.
Right. Okay. Well in
terms of the context of the neighborhood, as
you, and I know only too well since I'm your
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
neighbor down the street, there are many, many
renovations like that that have happened in
that neighborhood over many years and you've
done such a nice job of fixing up what's there
already with the termite damage.
MEMBER OLIVA: I was wondering why you
were changing it.
MR. VAN GELDER: Well, our plan was not
to do what we're doing. It became this way
because of the -- when the builders came in
and looked at what we wanted to do with the
renovation and the addition and they went
downstairs they said it won't support -- it
can't work.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I have to say I
think it's very helpful to face that fact now
because we've had many applications where
renovations have been attempted and discovery
of structural problems happen after the fact
that have led to even more problems and more
delays. So frankly, distressing though it may
be, it's better to just do this correctly to
begin with. So I think it'll be a great
addition to the house and I'll welcome you
full time to the neighborhood.
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MR. VAN GELDER: Thank you.
what we're looking forward to.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
MR. VAN GELDER: Thank you.
Yeah, that's
Okay. I have no further
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I like the plan. I
like the way it's conceived. I have a
question about whether we might want to see or
some of us might want to see greater proof
that -- about the rotation of the house. As
you know, once the house is demolished the
permit to build and the variances are
technically carried out as though there never
were a house on that block at all and so the
argument would have to be made and Mr.
Fitzgerald made it to some degree is that if
there were no house on that property would you
then be able to make a strong argument to put
it exactly in that spot with those small
setbacks? You say that the lot would be very
crowded and I just wondered if you have more
to say about that point and if you address
from a de novo situation rather than the fact
that it is, as you say, it's been there for a
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
long time, the neighbors are used to it is not
the most powerful argument I've heard on
locating a house in a particular place given
that this is going to be demolished and
replaced.
MR. VAN GELDER: Well, one of the things
that drew us to the house when we bought it
was the fact that we had all of that backyard
area, both visually and what's ours for our
use. We live in a very tight neighborhood in
Nassau where houses are on top of each other
and when we saw this house one of the reasons
what we bought it from Jean was because the
backyard was so beautiful and now that we
can't renovate the house, we didn't want to
lose the backyard just because we can't
renovate the house and we have to build new.
So we wanted to retain that backyard. If we
were to move the house where it can go based
on the site lines, we would have a huge front
yard, which we can't do much with because the
Town setback comes so far into it.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. VAN GELDER: And you have a
restricted backyard and the side yard we can't
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
do much with because we're on a private road.
So we wanted to retain the backyard. So once
we found out we couldn't renovate, we said
well let's just put the new place right where
it is and that was our decision.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, my question is
granted that to make it fully conforming would
have imposed a considerable burden on you and
is there any indication why, for example, if
it were moved one or two feet to increase some
of the setbacks, I'm not saying that would be
what we would recommend, but would that be
objectionable? Is this sort of a unique
perfect spot and everything else is seriously
inferior?
MR. VAN GELDER: I honestly don't know if
there's an -- if I can answer that. I know if
we moved it back one or two feet I don't know
how much room we have left from the preserve
because we're restricted on the distance from
the preserve on the east side of us. So if we
move back two or three feet to clear the front
variance, I don't know if we open a can of
worms in the back or not and the thought
process when we designed the house was if we
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build on the same footprint we should be okay.
You know, we didn't think that -- we really
didn't think that we had a variance issue
cause the house was there. This
We didn't --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. VAN GELDER:
is new to us.
Right.
-- we're not builders.
Then we would have the expense of the
additional driveway because we would have to
extend it to wherever the house would go.
Especially if we put it further back in the
variance and then we want to switch to Town
water and my understanding is we have to pay
from the foundation to the property line,
which if we move it back that extends it and
we have a septic tank that's an issue. So
there's some economics that are playing into
it as well as trying to keep it where we
thought we would keep it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I would also like to
just add especially that the setback from the
right-of-way belongs to your neighbor
actually, I guess it's Steve and Maureen's
property.
MR. VAN GELDER: Yeah.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a 50-foot right-of-
way and even though it would appear that it's
13 feet, it's 13 feet from the (inaudible).
So visually it has absolutely no -- that side
yard has no impact, technically the side yard
could be, I guess, it's actually characterized
as another front yard.
MR. VAN GELDER:
why we had to apply
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's what we -- that's
for the two variances.
It is the architectural
side yard of your house,
really a --
MR. VAN GELDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
but it is considered
A second front yard.
-- front yard. So that
does require a variance because you're not 35-
feet from that, but appearance is very
misleading on the survey. It really has --
there's a great deal of distance between you
and the Barbieri/Pastore property to your
west.
MR. VAN GELDER:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
The northwest.
Yeah. So I don't have
any objection to continuing that setback,
particularly since it's not paralleling it,
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it's rather oblique to it, which makes it even
larger as you get to the back of the house.
MR. FITZGERALD: May I?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FITZGERALD: I think the main problem
is the unusual configuration of the lot.
MEMBER OLIVA: It is.
MR. FITZGERALD: With the two main
streets intersecting at that point and the
right-of-way, which was not there when the
house was built. The right-of-way was added
when the property was subdivided at a later
date. So the house was there before the
right-of-way, but of course when the house is
gone, demolished, the right-of-way now is
there before it. Anyhow, I think that the, as
an outsider, if you will, to the neighborhood,
the fact that that house will be located at a
significant distance further away from the
paved roads it would look as the most
different one in the neighborhood because all
the other houses are about where this house is
from the standpoint of the feeling of this
setback from the paved road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's true.
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CHAIRM3%N GOEHRINGER: The only thing to
add to that, excuse me for jumping in,
Michael, is the fact that the majority of the
houses on the east side of Hickory Road have
relatively small lots. There are only two
lots on that side which square footage wise
almost compare to yours. We have had
variances on that side, okay, so taking in
consideration that side, which the majority of
your property is on that side of the road,
okay, there is precedence in reference to
granting a variance.
Excuse me, Michael.
MEMBER SIMON: I would say that both Mr.
Fitzgerald and Mr. Van Gelder have done well
in responding to my question. I'd just add
further that when I visited the property I was
struck by the fact that the flag is about
half-way between the house and this de facto
right-of-way. So it looks like it is as
Leslie said one of those not in frequent
problems of the technical two front yards. If
it were a side yard, which it looks like, you
wouldn't have a problem.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: You wouldn't have a
problem.
MEMBER SIMON: And I think the point of
my raising these things is that we have to
write these things in a way that would be
convincing to somebody else who might be
skeptical and just to make the strongest case
for whatever it is that we decide. I thank
you very much.
MR. VAN GELDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak in favor or against this application?
Sir, please state your name for the
record.
MR. BARBARA: Steven Barbara. I
presently acquired that right-of-way and I see
no objection to them building their house
exactly where they want it. I think it's
going to be a good added thing to our
neighborhood. They're good, caring people and
I'd like to see it take place just the way it
is right there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much. Anybody else?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
*****************************************
HEARING #6149 - Donald Hohn
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-15 and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's March 17, 2008 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed new dwelling
and accessory shed structure for the
following: (a) the new construction will
exceed the code limitation of 20% for lot
coverage; (b) the new dwelling is proposed at
less than 35 feet from the front yard lot
line; (c) the proposed shed will be in a side
yard rather than the code-required rear yard,
at 945 East Gillette Drive, East Marion; CTM
38-3-2."
I would be happy to hear you address the
points of your application.
MR. HOHN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman,
members of the Board. My name is Donald Hohn,
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
my lovely wife, Susan. We are the owners and
the applicants.
I have one green card for you, Linda,
that came in late.
BOARD ASST.: Oh great. Thank you.
MR. HOHN: I'm asking relief on three
separate variances. I'd like to address each
one of those one at a time, if I may. The
first one would be the lot coverage. We
bought this property in 2004 and I proceeded
to design a lovely colonial-style home with
living space, living room, eating space,
kitchen and master suite on the first floor.
Second floor consisted of two bedrooms, a
study and a bonus room, but then we quickly
realized that this was going to be our
permanent retirement home and the fact that
climbing up and down stairs as you age can be
a problem. My wife has already had one knee
operation.
So I scrapped that plan and I decided to
draw up a ranch-style home. Just because of
the nature of the beast, a ranch home has a
much larger footprint than a colonial-style
home and that led me to being in front of you.
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I tried changing the dimensions of the house
to meet the footprint, the lot coverage. I
lost some of the size of the rooms, they
became too small and just the layout of the
house wouldn't work right. So I'm basically
stuck with this ranch-style home.
The second is the setback. I front on
two streets. I front on Gillette and our rear
yard is East Gillette. Legally, I'm not sure
how it's considered, but I consider it as two
front yards.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. HOHN: So I'm treating my rear front
yard as a front yard to my neighbors on East
Gillette. I can place this house in three
different locations on the lot. All the way
forward with a 25-foot front setback, 35-foot
in the rear. I can split the difference 30-
foot front, 30-foot rear. I can move the
house all the way back to have a 35-foot in
the front and 25-foot in the rear.
The reasons I chose to move the house to
the front of the lot the house across the back
is 56 feet wide. If I move the house all the
way to the rear, at 25 feet from the property
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line I feel that the impact on the two to
three neighbors on East Gillette will be a
tremendous impact because the width of the
house is a straight 56-foot wall. So by
moving it to the rear I felt was not the best
option.
If I move it to the front 5 feet and put
a 5 foot -- 30 foot setback in the front and
30-foot setback in the rear, I eliminate some
of the impact on the people on East Gillette,
but now I'm impacting the people on Gillette.
So instead of two to three people on East
Gillette, I now have two to three people on
Gillette. So I'm impacting four to six people
instead of two to three.
By moving the house all the way to the
front leaving 25-foot setback in the front,
35-foot setback in the rear the only portion
of the house that will be within that setback
is the garage. The garage is 25 feet wide at
that point. The rest of the house, the garage
would be at 25 feet from the setback line.
The front door would be 53 feet from the
setback line and the bathroom portion would be
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47 feet from the front setback line or the
front property line I should say.
So by the house being basically an L-
shape and the difference in dimensions will
break up the appearance of the house. Instead
of looking at a 56-foot solid wall, you'll be
looking at different dimensions from the
streets. There's going to be gable ends,
reverse gables on that portion of the house.
So the visual impact, I feel, won't be as
great as if I move it all the way to the rear.
So that's my decision for moving it to the
front rather than to the rear.
The third variance is a shed other than a
rear yard. I really don't have a rear yard.
I have two front yards. So I decided to place
the shed on the north side of the house. I
did this for several reasons. The south side
of my house from the property line is 10 feet,
minimum 10 feet. The north side is 33 feet
from the property line. My intentions are to
build an 8 by 10 shed, place it 10 feet from
the house. An 8 foot shed will still give me
15 feet from the property line, the setback
line. So the shed will be within the setback
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lines. Also, the house to my north, it is his
rear yard. He faces, the house physically
faces Manor Road and sides on Gillette and
East Gillette, so it is his rear yard, my side
yard that's where I want to put the shed.
If I put the shed in my rear yard, or my
front rear yard, it's going to affect the
people on East Gillette. So that's why I
chose to put it on that side. Also on that
side of the house eventually if we get central
air conditioning the air conditioning units
will be on that side of the house. I intend
to have a stand-by generator that's going to
be on that side of the house. The gas meter
is going to be on that side of the house. The
air vents for the heating system are going to
be on that side of the house and I intend to
use the shed to block the view and block the
noise from my neighbors by using that shed and
putting those utilities, the mechanicals,
between the shed and the house.
That's all I have to say. Have you any
questions?
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. I don't have any
questions concerning the placement on the
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property of either the shed or the house
itself. I noticed, however, that in defending
giving very good justification for that
particular placement, you showed concern about
the impact minimizing the relative impact on
your neighbors, which is laudable. The issue
of having to do with impact on the neighbors
is also, of course, the lot coverage and
without the lot coverage problem there
wouldn't be -- it wouldn't be that delicate as
far as moving the house around and so the
question is while I understand the advantages
of having a ranch-style house, a ranch-style
house with a 3,000 foot floor is fairly
sizable on a lot that is moderate sized. It's
like a quarter of an acre, about .30 of an
acre, I guess, and I wondered whether since
most of that that setback problem on one side
and the area is accounted for by the, what you
call L-shape, the fact that the garage sticks
out. It's a pretty sizeable garage, which is
sticking out.
If it were desirable to reduce the lot
coverage, could it be, would it be
considerable that the house could be designed
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in such a way that the garage would not extend
that far out? Saying that the whole house
would be somewhat smaller in area and thereby
the garage would not then be sticking out
toward the road on the Gillette Street side.
That's a suggestion and you obviously don't
have to take it
about this.
MR. HOHN:
or not, but that's my concern
I'll answer that. I tried
redesigning the house by moving the garage
back, but in doing that it took away one of
the bedrooms, it took away some of the
entrance area. So I tried to reconfigure the
house to make it almost square rather than L-
shaped. What that did for me is that -- this
is going to be a manufactured home and in some
instances when you change one wall you change
other walls in the house and it wound up, by
moving the garage back, it actually made the
house larger. It made the house larger in
areas that we really felt we didn't need. One
of the areas was the walk-in closet became 10
by 15. Now for some people a 10 by 15 closet
is great, but we have a very simple life and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
don't need a 10 by 15 closet to hang my two
suits in.
So, yes, I tried to move the garage back.
I tried to redesign the house, but the
footprint actually became bigger. Another
redesign I had if you look at the plans across
the back of the house there's a study, a
breakfast nook, a covered porch and a sitting
room. My original plan was the breakfast
nook, instead of being a square room was sort
of octangular, and the sitting room was only
8-foot octangular-type of room and it
eliminated the enclosed porch. The problem
with that is, being a modular home, to add
these units, add the roof lines and the custom
to build that was prohibitive. So the
decision was to square-off the breakfast nook
and square-off the sitting room and that left
a space in the middle. So I just made it a
covered porch.
covered porch,
to the house.
It seems
house would add cost to
So I could eliminate the
but actually it would add cost
funny that taking away from the
it, but it will. So
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that's why the back is a straight piece rather
than octangular different size rooms.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: I have no further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the plan, the
proposed plan on the survey indicates a garage
that is 25 feet 3 inches. Looking at the plan
that you submitted it shows that at 20 feet 2-
3/4 inches plus that portion that I can't read
where it says -- so I suspect there's an
overhang over those two; is that correct?
MR. HOHN: Looking at the house from the
front there's a two-bay garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HOHN: The right hand bay should be
25-feet from the property line. The left hand
bay is setback 2 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
I'm talking about the internal size of the
garage. The internal size of the garage on
the right hand bay shows as 22 feet 2 and I
think that's 1/4 inch.
MR. HOHN: 22 feet 2-3/4 inches, correct.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, now that's
the one that protrudes out a little bit
farther --
MR. HOHN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- which affords it
the 25 foot setback; is that correct?
MR. HOHN: No, it's both garages.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's both garages.
MR. HOHN: I'd have to cut 10 feet off of
both garages to meet the setback.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I understand
that. I'm just trying to figure out how we
get more footage in there if the garage is
only 22 feet because the plan here reads --
BOARD ASST.: The survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- the survey
rather reads 25 feet 3 inches.
BOARD ASST.: Plus another 2-foot
extension.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, plus another
2-foot extension. I'm just trying to get a
little more setback from Gillette Drive.
BOARD ASST.: There's an extra 2 by 12,
an extra 24 square feet at the end of the
garage.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When we get down to
these minute figures -- you can study this and
get' back to us. It's not something we're
putting you on the hot seat for right at the
moment.
MR.
the set
feet.
HOHN: You're saying the garage from
-- from the property line shows 25
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 25 feet 3 inches on
the survey. See here, that wall?
MR. HOHN: That's the wall of the garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not the setback.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the opposite
wall. I'm not asking -- I'm even talking
setback.
MR. HOHN: Right, it's the opposite wall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking
internal size of the garage.
BOARD ASST.: See the 70 feet? There's a
2-foot extension that's part of that 70 foot
wall on the 10-foot setback side where the
garage is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to come
over here and we'll show you what we're
talking about?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
Here we're showing 25
MR. HOHN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
we're not showing anything,
feet 3 inches.
Okay, down here
okay, and this is
a 2-foot jog in the right hand garage.
Alright, that's what causing you to be 25 feet
from the front property line on the 10-foot
side.
BOARD ASST.: Otherwise it would be 27.
MR. HOHN: Actually it's all -- it's 10
feet of this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's 10 feet of
that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The width.
MR. HOHN: The width.
BOARD ASST.: It's 12 on here. See that
12 --
MR. HOHN: It's 12 and 13.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HOHN: It's 12 and 13.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that cut does
exist?
MR. HOHN: Yes, that cut does exist.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HOHN: So this portion is at 25 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. HOHN: (Inaudible)
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
making the entire thing 27
Is there any way of
is at 27 feet.
Is there anyway of
feet?
MR.
feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You
HOHN: I can move that garage back 2
Yeah, that's my
can only do that if
you move the entire building back
feet.
BOARD ASST.: Or cut
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
cut it off.
(inaudible)
it off.
I'm asking him to
foot
and the other one is tight
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
reason --
MR. HOHN:
concerned.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
increased the size of it?
MR. HOHN:
MR. HOHN: That would leave me with a 20-
garage, which is what the other one is
For some strange
-- as far as 20 feet is
So is that why you
I don't particularly care --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead.
MR. HOHN: I'm not particularly fond of
large cars, but if you wanted to put a large
SUV in there and maybe a workbench or
something else in the garage a 20-foot garage
is not that big in depth.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's talk
the opposite side now. The survey shows that
you're 36 feet from East Gillette Drive, so
you can move that to 35 feet.
MR. HOHN:
why I did that.
plot the house,
Yes and I'll explain to you
When I asked the survey to
I asked him to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HOHN: -- the front building line at
25 feet and the south building line at 10 feet
and we came up with a 36-foot setback because
the property -- I was under the impression the
property was 130 feet deep.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. HOHN: It's actually 131 to 134.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HOHN: So yes, I could move that back
and that's probably what I'll do is move it
back to 35-foot rear yard.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HOHN: 26-foot front yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason why I'm
saying this, we have had significant variances
down here, Mr. Hohn. We kind of get as close
to 30 feet as we can, alright, on these and I
think 27 is a relatively workable figure,
okay. This is my opinion, this is not the
Board's opinion. I'm not speaking for the
Board, alright. If you could, in my
particular opinion, increase that setback to
27 feet, I'll be honest with you and this is
not a sarcastic statement, I don't care if you
go into the room and back another foot,
alright, and I understand the reason for depth
in these garages and, you know, when we come
to the country we have all kinds of things we
want to put in the garage. I'm not inviting
you over to my house because you can't even
get in the garage, okay. No one can get in my
garage, but needless to say,
to you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
that's my request
I think you've
made compelling arguments for everything that,
you know, you're requesting variances for and
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while I think it would be fine to have a 35-
foot setback that would bring you back 1 foot,
not 2 feet, as Mr. Goehringer suggested, it's
only a small portion after all of the overall
footprint that's encroaching into the legal
setback,
MR. HOHN: Correct. It's a portion of
the garage. Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, so frankly I think
that that, in my interpretation, is less of an
impact than the lot coverage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't even get
to lot coverage yet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm saying to me, and I
understand when you have a manufactured house
any changes from the components that configure
that house creates an anomaly and that is
expensive because then you start customizing
and what you're doing is reducing the cost
effectiveness of premanufactured components.
So I think that's a reasonable argument, you
know, and from my point of view the room sizes
are not excessively large anyway in what
you're proposing and certainly I appreciate
the vision of wanting to build something that
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
you can age in place with or deal with any
kind of mobility issue. Quite frankly, more
and more people are becoming aware of the
problematic nature of stairs, you know, for a
number of reasons. So I think that's another
argument you're trying to make here.
It is a small lot and so it's difficult
to put, especially with two front yards, it's
difficult to put a substantial size footprint
on here, but if you need that lot coverage in
order to create a house that's cost effective
for you, I think you've cited it as
thoughtfully as possible and I think
everything you're proposing is quite clear.
So it's just a matter of, once again, asking
if you've -- if you were to take off the
covered porch at some expense, let's say, all
that really does is require a cutout instead
of enclosure over the cutout, have you any
sense of what that would do to reduce the lot
coverage? It doesn't look like it's a very
large space, but let's just examine that while
we're in the hearing to see what the
consequences might be of the omission of that
one --
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MR. HOHN:
covered porch.
feet off.
It's roughly 10 by 21, that
So take roughly 200 square
MEMBER WEISMAN: The only way to really
have a -- if you do that and reduce the shed -
- if you get rid of the shed,
particularly desirable --
MR. HOHN: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the shed that's what,
which is not
But if you get rid of
80 square feet?
MR. HOHN: 80 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's 280 square feet.
I'd have to sit here and figure out what that
MR. HOHN: I still would not be with --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not much of
anything.
MR. HOHN: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not a substantial
MR. HOHN: 20% is roughly 2655.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. HOHN: I'm at 3246.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're not gaining a
substantial amount in reduction of lot
coverage.
MR. HOHN: And I will say this, I'm not
gaining in lot coverage, but I increase my
cost.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That I understand. What
I'm trying to do is look for the record at the
feasibility of reducing lot coverage, what the
options are and then we can look at the
agreements for not doing it. What I'm trying
to point is the two obvious places where lot
coverage could be reduced without compromising
your design and the components that make that
design happen would be those two pieces, the
shed and the covered porch, and I'm now also
pointing out that you're not reducing the lot
coverage by any substantial amount by
eliminating those two pieces.
You would have to do some substantial
additional reductions. You could do a
substantial amount by having a one-car garage,
that would probably be the only significant
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
way to reduce lot coverage. Can you just make
a comment on that for the record?
MR. HOHN: I still, if I reduce it to a
one-car garage, I would still only have -- I'd
still be above the 20 percent.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh no, I know you --
there's no way you're not going to be above 20
percent.
MR.
it.
HOHN: Right, there's no way I can do
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm just attempting to
explore with you any possible way to reduce
that lot coverage. Right now, it's 4.5
percent over the 20 percent and if there was a
way to bring it down to 23 percent or 22-1/2
percent. We're just, you know, trying to
provide -- our job is to provide what the
minimal variance, the smallest variance from
what is conforming that we possibly can. So
this hearing gives you an opportunity to
address for the record why that's feasible for
you to do, what you think your options are or
not, relative to trying to become more
conforming than the 4.5 percent.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. HOHN: The only way I could possibly
conform to 20 percent would be to remove the
porch, remove one of the garages and remove
the shed. It would add cost to the house by
removing the covered porch. By making a
single-car garage, I'm a firm believer I like
to have the vehicles inside. I don't like to
look at cars sitting in driveways, boats
sitting in driveways, ski-dos sitting in
driveways. If I can get those in a garage I'm
happy. So that's the reason why I'm proposing
a two-car garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
concluding anything.
Bear in mind I'm not
I'm not suggesting that
it is not possible to grant the variance for
the lot coverage you've requested, but it's
our responsibility to explore options with
you.
I don't have any further questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. HOHN: One question about the
setback. I'm sure you're all familiar with
Marion Manor with the size of lots and the
variances that have been granted. There was
just a variance down the street from me where
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
he has a garage in his rear yard, again
another front yard, and he's less than 35 feet
from the back yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That garage is not
attached.
MR. HOHN: It's not attached, correct.
Correct, it's a single -- it's a separate
garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Accessory garage.
MR. HOHN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Wait
one second, Ruth?
MEMBER OLIVA: You know you've made an
excellent presentation about what your needs
are and the cost and what have you and it's a
difficult decision both for you and for
ourselves as far as lot coverage is concerned
and the only ones we did come up with really
is take the porch out and that's going to cost
you more money or cut back on the garages and
the garage is 20 feet or something, that's not
very big either. So it doesn't leave too many
options.
MR. HOHN: No. I tried my best, I say
I've redesigned the house several times and it
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
just keeps on coming back to this. I tried
redesigning it to move the garages back, the
house actually became bigger.
MEMBER OLIVA: Well, the thing is you're
going to need some storage space because you
won't have an attic.
MR. HOHN: Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Are you having a basement?
MR. HOHN: There will be a basement,
correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: There will be a basement.
MR. HOHN: There will be a basement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So right now we're
at 26 feet.
MR. HOHN: 26 feet, 35 feet in the rear.
In fact, if it's -- it would be 35 feet on the
rear on the north side, the south side would
probably be 33 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Any proposal
to put any type of screening in to screen any
portion of the house from your neighbor? No?
MR. HOHN: On the shed side, yes. The
shed, I intend to use the shed as the
screening and some landscaping from my
neighbor to the north. It's his rear yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Adjacent to the
shed or along the property line?
MR. HOHN: Excuse me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Adjacent to the
shed --
MR. HOHN: Adjacent to the shed. My
intentions are to leave that 15 feet --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Open.
MR. HOHN: -- the 15-foot setback open.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you
very much. Let's see what develops.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
Sir, state
you come up.
MR. VITALE:
your name for the record when
My name is Robert Vitale. I
own the house at 1045 Gillette Drive, that's
south bordering property to it.
I figured let me listen to the
presentation first, you know, to see all the
issues and I got the drawing here. My house,
okay, is -- I kept all the setbacks. My front
porch faces Gillette Drive because when I
built my house I think I completed in 2003 I
followed what the rest of the block had.
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Everybody was facing Gillette Drive and what I
have is a footprint, but not a full-view of a
house and today what I understand the front of
the house is going to be East Gillette Drive.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Gillette Drive.
MR. VITALE: Gillette Drive is the front
of the house. Okay.
I have a front porch in front of my
house. Now this is almost like building I
guess 20 feet with a pitched roof, a 20 foot
wall in front of my view. So that is my
concern, that setback. Nobody else has that
setback. My property, my house is 30 feet
wide because it's true we do have a front
setback and we have a rear setback. Now I
didn't come and ask for any changes because,
you know, I have to figure my neighbors. So I
kept to everything and now this house here
with this setback actually creates a wall to
my house that I can't see the front and I just
don't want to view a building on the side of
me. So I think it's kind of unfair the way
this thing is being built.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
The house on lot 57, the rear of the
house because the house -- the side of the
house has three fronts that's north of this,
so his wall is 50 feet wide. If the house was
inverted it would even be more neighbor
friendly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What do you mean?
MR. VITALE: Because I have a 70-foot
wall here because he's not holding these
setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that setback is
conforming. The side yard setbacks are
conforming.
MR. VITALE: The 10-foot is conforming,
but the house itself is 70-foot long --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand
(inaudible).
MR. VITALE: -- because of the front
setback that is nonconforming.
Right. It's the lot
as opposed to me
40 feet to the front.
Right.
BOARD ASST.:
coverage.
MR. VITALE: Okay,
holding my setbacks at
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
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MR. VITALE: So, you know, I was hoping
maybe we could come to some resolve and this
maybe it could be inverted, you know --
MEMBER SIMON: What do you mean by
inverted?
MR. VITALE: Reversed. ~bsolutely -- no.
Flipped over and rewritten.
BOARD ASST.: Like a mirror.
MR. VITALE: A mirror, absolutely.
CHAIRM3%N GOEHRINGER: Facing East
Gillette.
MR. VITALE: Right, because, you know,
the concerns here everybody that's across the
road, my neighbors on East Gillette Drive do
not border him, they're across the street. I
actually border so this is done with no
concern for me. It's done 10-foot off the
property line. 33 foot 9 inches off the other
property, which is their backyard, but this is
my side yard here and he wants to put a 70-
foot wall 10 feet away from the property line.
It's not even centered on the property. You
know, it takes away my vision, my -- you know,
so that's basically my concerns and if it
could be addressed, you know, I'm not -- I
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
would like to see them build the house and I
definitely like to see them improve the
property. It's a wooded lot, you know, I
think it would be better for the neighborhood,
better for the block. This is a little
overwhelming on my side. Those are my
concerns.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sir, what is the side
yard setback for your house on that boundary?
MR. VITALE: I have that here.
MEMBER OLIVA: Take your time.
MR. VITALE: 22 feet 8 inches.
Okay, I
have 19.2 on one side and 22 feet to his
property.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. VITALE: 22
Okay.
foot 8 inches.
It's more
or less centered, you know.
MEMBER OLIVA: And your setback from
Gillette Drive is what again?
MR. VITALE: 40 foot and my porch comes
out, it's 40 -- 7 feet --
MEMBER OLIVA: And how about --
MR. VITALE: Hold on, 40.7 feet and my
porch is 5 feet wide at that point. So it's a
40-foot setback, basically.
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MEMBER OLIVA: How about from East
Gillette?
MR. VITALE: From East Gillette I'm 60
feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
double lot also.
So you have a
MR. VITALE: It's not a double lot, it's
a single lot. I have two fronts. Just the
way -- it's identical property. Basically the
same square footage of ground coverage, but
what I did because I needed the room, so I had
to go with a colonial.
MEMBER OLIVA: You built up.
MR. VITALE: So I could shrink the lot
size cause I didn't want to impose. You know,
everybody else's house there -- the basic
house there is a small ranch that's been
existing or Cape Cod.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right. I know.
MR. VITALE: You know, so the other
houses down the block there was a couple that
were built that were Colonial and that's what
we decided to do. You know, try to keep the
lot size, you know, as much as possible.
I'm basically concerned with the setback.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: I understand that, but I
also understand their physical problems about
the going up with a Colonial is very nice when
you're young and you can run up and down the
stairs. As you get older you start looking
for something that's just flat, which of
course will take up more room than your
Colonial.
MR. VITALE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
That is the concern.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's a difficult decision.
MR. VITALE: I applied for a variance, I
think it was 2004, from the Town. They were
very gracious, they granted it to me, for a
pool. The problem was the same thing, we have
two front yards.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. VITALE: And I wanted to establish a
rear yard. So I put in an in-ground pool. I
had one of the neighbors complain, you know,
they weren't happy with it and I had to put a
line of property line trees.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. VITALE: So it could not be seen.
MEMBER OLIVA: I remember.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. VITALE: Whatever it cost, that's my
burden, that's not my neighbors' burden what
it cost. So I understand your concerns and
the money and it's going to cost -- but that's
not my concern. That's, you know, his concern
and that's -- the property is maybe not big
enough for the house that's needed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If there were a row of
very dense evergreen trees along the border to
screen the wall of their proposed house from
your porch and your house so you were looking
at landscaping, basically, and not a wall, how
would you feel about that?
MR. VITALE: If it was to the side or in
the back I would be fine, but in the front,
you know, I'm not too happy with that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm talking about
perhaps the entire boundary, you know, all the
way to the front or setback so that all you
see is part of the garage. In other words, if
there were a way to visually screen it with
landscaping, what would be your ideal or
preferred, let's say --
MR. VITALE: I'd like to sit outside and
not have a huge wall. You know? I would like
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
to be able to see the road if I got the kids
playing I want them to be able to hear the
cars coming before they run out into the
street, that's another concern.
MEMBER OLIVA: (Inaudible) street.
MR. VITALE: You know, because once you
put something like that you're actually
blocking -- everybody comes from the
neighborhood onto Gillette Drive. So now if
the kids are playing in the front or riding
their bicycles and they get out into the
street, they're not going to hear that car
until it's right on top. You actually, you
know, you're blocking -- the trees are nice,
but it's actually blocking -- if it was
setback a little bit more, you know, five
feet, maybe even 10 feet I could deal with it,
but you're asking for 15-17 feet all of 10
feet off the property line. Maybe if you
pushed it in a little or inverted it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The applicant has
indicated some -- a very sensitive awareness
of setbacks from both East Gillette and
Gillette and has indicated some willingness to
be somewhat flexible in terms of which setback
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
goes where and has made an argument for why he
proposed it the way he did.
Would you be willing to address your
neighbor's concerns? Can you comment to the
Board, please, on what your reaction is so we
can explore that?
MR. VITALE: Thank you everybody.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was the reason
why I asked the question regarding screening.
MR. HOHN: I've always assumed that my
front yard would be Gillette cause that's
actually what the address is, 945 Gillette. I
could reverse the house and face East
Gillette, but then my backyard would be his
front yard and I think that would be more of
an objection than leaving it facing Gillette.
I also thought of flipping the house,
putting the garage on the north side as
against the south side. The reason I put the
garage on the south side, the south side,
which faces his house is what I considered the
quiet side of the house. The other side of
the house, which is the backyard of my
neighbor is where they're going to entertain,
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
that's where their kids are going to play,
that's where our master bedroom is and I tried
to keep that as far away from the property
line as I could. That's why I moved it to 10
feet facing his yard.
On that side of his house there's no
entrance. I'm not sure if there's any
windows.
MR.
MR.
VITALE: On the side, yes.
HOHN: There's a side. I understand
his objection to my garage sticking out will
block part of his view. I feel for that, but
I tried to move the house. If I move the
house back too much I'll be impacting the
people on East Gillette.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what do we do
about screening?
MR. HOHN: I can certainly screen the
back. I can certainly screen along the side,
but I think the objection he has is sitting on
his front porch is the corner of my garage is
going to obstruct his view not necessarily
between the houses.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only by five feet.
Okay, if you screen all the way up to the end
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
of the garage because you're going to --
excuse me, I apologize, I'm reversing it
Within 27 feet,
the way to the
27 feet --
MR. HOHN:
front yard, is
now.
basically, you can screen all
tip of the garage so you'll be
From the rear yard to the
that what you're saying?
MEMBER WEISMAN: From East Gillette to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the garage.
MR. HOHN: From East Gillette.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other option, of
course, is to wind up with 30 foot setback
from East Gillette and increase the -- add
another 5 feet to the setback on Gillette.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And still do the
screening. I mean you rightly argued that the
closer you are to the road from your
architectural rear elevation the greater the
impact to the neighbors on East Gillette. If,
however, you set it back an additional five
feet for the compromise and then screen that
with evergreens along East Gillette it would
be very minimal visual impact.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. HOHN: Well, like I said, if I set
the house in the center of the property 30-
foot setback front, 30-foot setback in rear,
now I'm impacting four to six people with the
visual impact. Rather than moving it forward
where I'm only impacting two to three people
and the width of the garage is what's the
problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not sure that the
impact on East Gillette with screening and
additional reduction by five feet would have a
huge impact. In driving around there, you
know, it's clear that some houses face East
Gillette, some face Gillette. It's quite
common to have them changing from one
orientation to the other although most of the
ones on Gillette, as you point out, face
Gillette.
MR HOHN: Face Gillette, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Rather than East
Gillette. That's the wrong way to say it.
More houses with the two front yards seem to
be fronting on Gillette rather than East
Gillette. I think this is just a matter of
tweaking the dimensions to come up with a --
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
you know, to give you the house that you want,
but to have the least impact on those parties
that are concerned and I greatly appreciate
your awareness, number one, that it's a very
large footprint for the reasons you've stated
and, therefore, your willingness to be as
flexible as possible and as thoughtful as
possible in terms of how that large ranch
relative to the small existing ranches will
affect the character of the neighborhood and
your neighbors. I think we probably heard
just about all the -- unless other people have
comments.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the only thing
left is to go 12-1/2 and 12-1/2 --
MEMBER WEISMAN: On side yard?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On side yard and
that's the only other thing that's left.
MR. HOHN: I could do that, but that
would move the shed closer to my neighbors on
that side.
MEMBER OLIVA: Their back yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Your neighbor's rear
yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. HOHN: My neighbor's rear yard and it
would put my master bedroom closer to the
noise, if you will.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't other thing is
that your neighbor to the south, you know, who
just spoke, sorry I forgot your name, is
setback a fairly substantial distance on that
side yard.
MR. HOHN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think it's so
much an issue of the distance between your
actual architectural wall as it is the
diagonal view --
MR. HOHN: He's concerned, rightfully so,
sitting on his front porch, my garage will
block part of his view.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it is a very long
unbroken elevation.
MR. HOHN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I think, you know,
you've done a very thoughtful job all the way
around of thinking of just about everything.
The good thing about a public hearing is that
we get to explore a variety of options that
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the house
property,
are reasonable and our job is to try and
balance individual property rights with impact
on the neighborhood and the common good, and I
don't think we're all that far away from a
reasonable resolution.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what do you want
to do?
MEMBER WEISMAN: See if there's any other
comments to be made and then deliberate.
MR. HOHN: I can certainly move the house
back five feet and give it 30-foot setback
front, 30-foot setback rear, but, as I said, I
feel that that would impact the people on East
Gillette quite a bit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You could also move
over farther from the 10-foot
from the 10-foot side yard a little
MR. HOHN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- bit farther into
the lot.
MR. HOHN: Yes, I could.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HOHN: But as I said, then I'm going
to be moving over that shed --
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: Well, that shed is moved
anyway cause you said it's a minimum of 15-
feet from that north side and --
MR. HOHN: At the property line so now
the shed would be in that setback.
BOARD ASST.: No because the 10-foot
setback if you say you move that 10-foot to 15
that's 5 foot difference. So if you shift the
house 5 feet to the north your shed will still
be at 15 feet cause you have a 21-foot area to
play with here between the shed and the house.
MR. HOHN: Between the house and the
house and the property line is 33 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
MR. HOHN: 10 feet from the house 8 foot
shed, 15-foot setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
BOARD ASST.: Um-hmm.
MR. HOHN: I'd be moving the shed closer
to the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, but you would still
be 15 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. HOHN: No, it would be less than 15
feet.
BOARD ASST.: Could you, I'm sorry, I'm
confused. I'm trying to understand this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't know if
that --
BOARD ASST.: If you just took this whole
thing and shifted it over 5 feet, just took
the whole house and shifted it over 5 feet --
I'm sorry, I apologize. Just take the whole
plan and shift it over 5 feet so that you have
15 here, the shed is still in the same
location. The shed is not going to move.
MR. HOHN: No, from the house to the
property line is 33 feet.
BOARD ASST.: 33.9, almost 34 feet, okay.
MR. HOHN: If I leave 10 feet from the
house to the shed, which is what I'm
proposing.
BOARD ASST.: For what?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the area
that he wants to put the utilities in.
MR. HOHN: My utilities are going to be
in that 10-foot area.
BOARD ASST.: Alright, so that's 18.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
18.
MR. HOHN: The 8-foot shed is going to be
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. HOHN: That leaves me with 15 feet
from the shed to the property line.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. HOHN: If I move the house north it
would eliminate or reduce this 15 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct.
BOARD ASST.: Yes, well the 5 feet though
where the shed would be -- this is where -- so
the shed would be 10 feet from that north line
instead of 15.
MR. HOHN:
Correct.
Instead of 15,
correct.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, that's what I wanted
to go over.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could that be done?
BOARD ASST.: Could that be done?
MR. HOHN: Again, moving the shed closer
to the property line, that could be done.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, but here's
where the problem lies. This is a democratic
organization here. Okay, we have -- we need
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
three votes, alright, and so, if you want to
leave it up to us, you can leave it up to us
or if you want to speak to your neighbor and
get back to us based upon everything that you
have presented to us today before May 8tn,
we'll close the hearing based upon that your
comments and/or his comments one or the other
as long as you both talk between the both of
you or else we have to leave time --
BOARD ASST.: If you have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- open for his
comments and so on and so forth then it goes
on for months.
MR. HOHN: Right, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To be honest with
you. This is the way the whole situation
works.
BOARD ASST.: The procedure is there's
one other things we're forgetting. Before the
Board votes on an alternative plan you should
give us that plan. So if you agree to move
the shed to 10-feet from the line and move the
house 15 you would need to give that to the
Board so that they can stamp it, if that works
out. If they approve it, that gets stamped so
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
you don't have to reapply all over again. I
would recommend that sometimes the Building
Department will send it back if we don't stamp
the map that is agreed on today. So if --
MR. HOHN: I have no problem with leaving
it up to you to make the decision as to where
to place the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. HOHN: Once that
Okay.
decision is made I
can certainly go back to the surveyor and have
him move the house on the survey and move the
shed on the survey.
BOARD ASST.: We would need that, before
the Board makes the decision, for the file.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, the point is we're
not going to propose alternative relief unless
we know exactly what is it.
MR. HOHN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: We're not going to say you
can have everything you want except it's going
to be 10-foot over, if we haven't seen plans
for what that looks like.
MR. HOHN: Okay. Alright, thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: My understanding is he's
asking us to provide alternative relief
without the drawings.
BOARD ASST.: Right and I'm saying
procedurally we don't normally do that you
have to reapply again. Building Department
will probably send you back,
another six weeks.
MEMBER OLIVA:
BOARD ASST.:
which means
Right.
You really don't want to
lose another six weeks. I don't think.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Linda, are you
suggesting that it's in Mr. Hohn's --
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, Mr. Hohn could decide
whether to offer an alternative --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Talk to your neighbor
and then you propose to us.
MEMBER OLIVA: Get the site plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just through a site
plan, same house or whatever, but relocated
based upon all that you've heard, based upon
what you heard from us, what you heard from
your neighbor, talk to your neighbor, come
back and we can close this hearing subject to
receipt within say a week of a redrawn site
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plan that takes into consideration all the
things we've talked about. Attempting, look
it's very clear that you're an extremely
thoughtful and reasonable person, so I'm sure
you can absorb the comments and come up with a
recommendation to us that you'd be satisfied
with and that we can then say, okay, we can
grant this as applied for. In other words,
based on the alternative plan and then bam we
know exactly what we're doing. Building
Department knows that we approved a particular
survey and we're done.
MR. HOHN: I understand.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, you wouldn't have to
reapply if we take that procedure.
MR. HOHN: Okay, very good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Vitale?
MR. VITALE: One more thing. According
to what I heard, if we could do 15 feet maybe
set it back another 5 feet with property line
I would have no problem with it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. VITALE: Okay, I'll state
now.
it right
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
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MR. VITALE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so we'll
make a motion closing the hearing, reserving
decision except that we are waiting for
comments from the applicant based on the
proposed new placement of the home.
BOARD ASST.: And the alternative plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the alternative
plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
BOARD ASST.: Subject to receiving that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
And I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6142 James Meskouris
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's March
25, 2008 amended Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions and alterations
to the existing single-family dwelling, which
new construction will result in a lot coverage
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
exceeding the code limitation. Location of
Property: 1350 Sound Beach Drive, Mattituck;
CTM 106-1-36.1 (formerly 36)."
As I understand it, we're looking at a
proposed single-family house with 42 percent
lot coverage where the Code allows 20 percent
in the R-40 District. This is a nonconforming
13,847 square foot lot. The proposed two-
story addition is 22 by 24.7 foot footprint
and the front elevation.
grade patio in the side
removed.
The proposed at
yard other walk to be
I have several questions, but I think
perhaps I'll let you go ahead and make your
presentation, Chris. I just want to ask one
quick question.
MRS. RIVERA: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is the current lot
coverage? We know it's nonconforming also,
but -- do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED:
MRS. RIVERA:
Meskouris.
Just state your name.
Christine Rivera for
The existing house is approximately 1500
square feet. Okay now based on the original
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ZBA Town of
Southold - April 24, 2008
survey when it used to mean high tide mark, I
mean if we go by either the Coastal Erosion
Line or the bulkhead it does vary. Perhaps if
we start with the survey it'd be a lot easier
to explain why the house is designed the way
it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Let's do that
then.
MRS. RIVERA: Let's go back. In 2000,
Mr. Meskouris was granted a variance to put a
roof overhang over his existing deck and it
was over the entire existing deck on the sides
and the front. He never built that roof
overhang.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Excuse me, did you say
on the sides and the front?
MRS. RIVERA: Yes, it was on the sides
and the front in 2000. He was granted a
variance for that. So he never got around to
building that so on this new plan we have now
cut back the roofline to be only on the
waterside 20 feet by 12 in the front waterside
and then with sort of a hip roof overhang on
the sides extending 6 feet, 5 foot with a 1
foot soffit.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
So we've brought back the roof overhang
approximately 4 feet on each side maybe even a
little more. So this was granted a variance
back in 2000, but we reduced the roof overhang
substantially since then on this new plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let me just clarify,
the roof overhang you're referring to is a
kind of pergola you want to put on the side
elevation and on the rear?
MRS. RIVERA: [Away from mike.] Okay, so
this is the (inaudible) so it's actually 6
foot on the side over here. This is 12 feet
total and this is the 6 foot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This
side?
MRS. RIVERA: This is
is the seaward
the seaward side
and this is the existing house as it is right
now and this is the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is the new
addition.
BOARD ASST.: There's a deck on the
waterside right now that's not shown on there.
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at mike.] There is a
deck (inaudible). This entire property has a
deck all the way down almost to the bulkhead.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MRS. RIVERA: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
cause you said
existing house, but then the deck is --
MRS. RIVERA: The deck is (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time.
MRS. RIVERA: The deck exists all the way
to the edge of the property line now.
MEMBER OLIVA: Chris, you never then did
the overhang over the deck so that is open as
we look at it today?
MRS. RIVERA: Yes. The deck is
(inaudible) to the edge of the property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You said walkway was to
be removed. Are you -- right now it's -- I
can't tell what the space is. Where's the
property line, here?
MRS. RIVERA: The property line is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's there. Okay, so
it's there to there.
MRS. RIVERA: It's 50 feet to the
property line and the house is 29 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so you're
talking about removing --
BOARD ASST.: Did you say -- yeah, 29.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're talking about
removing this deck?
MRS. RIVERA: We're removing all of the
decking and replacing it with pavers.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, pavers. Okay, this
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- will be what
underneath the pergola?
MRS. RIVERA: Will be pavers.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pavers. So everything
at grade --
MRS. RIVERA: All the decking is being
removed and we're putting pavers.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And what about the
decking that's over here?
MRS. RIVERA: It's all going to be
removed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and this will just
be open also or covered?
MRS. RIVERA: There's no alternative on
the water other than to put a structure
because awnings don't work, (inaudible) don't
work.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's too windy.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at the mike.] I have
an awning that I'm replacing already
(inaudible) structure that (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: What's the setback from
here to the property line?
MRS. RIVERA:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. RIVERA:
I think one side --
10 and 9 it says.
The actual on one side it's
almost 10, 9.8 and the other it's 10. So it's
approximately 5 foot on one side and a little
bit more on the other. You're talking about
the actual roof overhang?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I'm talking about
the -- from the overhang to the property line.
MRS. RIVERA: It's approximately 5 feet
on each side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For each side yard?
MRS. RIVERA: Yes and that's just to the
overhang.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
overhang.
MRS. RIVERA: Correct.
BOARD ASST.: For me that's probably why
it was difficult cause on the survey there
were so many lines (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, hard to tell what
the heck's going on.
BOARD ASST.: So now it shows 3.9 on the
survey for the setback on the west side. See
where the 10 is over there just above the 10
closer to the water, 3.9 foot? See the
measurement he has there?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right up there.
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at mike.] Yeah, I
think that's maybe this (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.:
right.
MRS. RIVERA:
Oh, right. Yeah, you're
[Not at mike.]
(Inaudible)
cement wall or (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: You just didn't put in that
5, right?
MRS. RIVERA: Well, you just go to 10
foot and (inaudible).
Just take out the
we started designing this house a couple of
months ago, we pulled this in, as you can see,
on the westerly side to give me the setback 15
feet, which that's what was required on the
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BOARD ASST.:
(inaudible), okay.
MRS. RIVERA:
[Not at mike.] Now, when
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
side and then I had to (inaudible) on this to
meet the setback requirement and then have 30
feet for the front yard. So we were trying to
avoid coming to the Zoning Board when we
designed this house by pulling it in on the
one side, and (inaudible) 35-foot front yard
setback, but then in the interim they changed
the ruling, the zoning between the bulkhead
and the Coastal Erosion Plan, etc. That's why
we are now nonconforming cause the original
was 19 percent of the lot size.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MRS. RIVERA: Okay, so we got caught,
unfortunately, in the rezoning of the Coastal
Erosion Line and the bulkhead in the middle of
designing this structure. So under the old
rules we tried to meet all the setbacks. We
kept it back 35 feet and kept it -- the second
story so as not to increase the nonconformity
we kept it in on the one side, that's why it's
uneven. The second story is pulled back so as
not to increase the nonconformity.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you saying that the
proposal as presented was originally, with the
additions, 19 percent lot coverage --
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MRS. RIVERA: (Inaudible) lot coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- until the building
envelope was defined differently?
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at mike.] Yes,
exactly. That is the first (inaudible) 19
percent on the survey.
BOARD ASST.: Using the whole property
even --
MRS. RIVERA: Using the whole property
(inaudible) to the high water.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To the high water, yes.
Okay.
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at mike.] As it has
always been defined, (inaudible) know very
well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's not digress
on that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So now you're proposing
a 30-foot front yard?
MRS. RIVERA: 35-foot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 35-foot, so that's
conforming.
MRS. RIVERA: That's conforming, correct.
And this section here is also conforming it's
10 on one side and 15 on the other.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
setback.
MRS. RIVERA:
It' s
Um-hmm.
conforming on the
Mrs.
might have been a long hearing.
MEMBER OLIVA: Very long.
MRS. RIVERA: I know it's
Yes, side yard setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you,
Rivera, if you didn't bring this in it
confusing
between the bulkhead and the Coastal Erosion
Line and the high water mark, etc., it does
get rather confusing, but you can see the
design is that (inaudible) brought it in to
meet the setbacks that were (inaudible)
several months ago.
BOARD ASST.: There are a lot of roof
lines, you can't see that on a survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. But you're -- so
what you really need is lot coverage variance
and two side yard setback variances?
MRS. RIVERA: Yes, well I don't know --
this is granted already.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do we need a new
variance?
BOARD ASST.: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: The overhang.
BOARD ASST.: For the columns in the
roof, you do, for the changes because
structurally that wasn't part of the original
deck that was approved.
MEMBER SIMON: No.
MRS. RIVERA: The deck was (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: No, it was the roof.
MEMBER OLIVA: The roof overhang was
approved.
MRS. RIVERA: (Inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, right.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) deck?
MEMBER SIMON: So the columns would not
be --
MRS. RIVERA: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: I guess that's maybe why
cause it was altered (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: But let's look at the
Notice cause the Notice only really sites lot
coverage.
MRS.
Notice?
RIVERA: Looking at the current
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: The amended Notice of
March 25:n only refers to --
MEMBER OLIVA: The old one. I was
looking for that overhang.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time.
MRS. RIVERA: [Not at mike.] Okay, this
was already approved as a much larger roof
overhang. So that's why it's not in the --
it's been reduced. So, basically, it's the
lot coverage (inaudible) side yard (inaudible)
extension (inaudible) lot coverage.
MEMBER OLIVA: I was looking for that
overhang, it nearly drove me nuts. You
enclosed -- I thought your sunroom was
originally the deck and you just enclosed it.
Okay, so I got that squared away.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You're building
back, you're building landward. Right?
MRS. RIVERA: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So you don't need
anything in relation to the bulkhead.
MRS. RIVERA: No.
MEMBER SIMON: May I make a comment?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know if
Leslie is done yet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. Okay, well it's a
good thing that was previously granted because
two 5-foot side yards don't give you enough
emergency --
MRS. RIVERA: Well, they can't get in
there anyway. I mean there's just no way
because the -- I'm sure you've been out --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have.
MRS. RIVERA: -- you can't get in there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's going to
happen on the situation here is you're going
to run lines on both sides of the houses and
fortunately all three houses are all
relatives. It's the son, mother and father --
MEMBER WEISMAN: For now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Forever and ever,
they have a lot of children. Mother, father,
two sons, okay, and a lot of grandchildren.
Alright. This will remain in this particular
situation for a long time, trust me, but
that's what'll happen and you'll take the one
with the greatest amount of access and that's
where you'll put the --
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ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Let's not make the
assumption that it's going to stay in the
family part of our reasoning for a decision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not making it -
- Leslie asked the question. You're
absolutely --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Cause we're not
going to be able to use that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- correct.
MRS. RIVERA: There's also, just so you
know, they recently -- when the Suffolk County
Water Authority redid the pipes in the area
there's a fire hydrant right across the
street.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, I'm not
counseling anything with regard to --
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- emergency
access. I'm just saying let's not --
MRS. RIVERA: Okay, (inaudible).
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- make it appear
that the basis of our decision is that we
think it's going to stay in the family.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're absolutely
correct. I stand corrected on that point.
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MRS. RIVERA: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Okay, could you repeat
for the court reporter?
MRS. RIVERA: There's a fire hydrant
that
across the street.
BOARD ASST.: And it's
guess you would say.
MRS. RIVERA: Yeah,
about emergency there's
for fire access I
you know, talking
a fire hydrant right
across the street from this property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I noticed that
there was a previous variance granted and that
when I went out there was rather confused to
see that there was no overhang. So I thought
okay, now I understand exactly what happened,
it wasn't done and the fact that it's reduced
in width from the original variance is
commendable. At least there's some sort of a
space between property lines. I presume that
you built the addition on the front of the
house to the west --
MRS. RIVERA: West, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and it will be just
about the same setback as that.
MRS. RIVERA: Yes (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MRS.
ASST.
now is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so we're really
just looking at a variance for lot coverage
and that would not have been necessary had the
Code remained unchanged in terms of definition
of building envelope.
RIVERA: Right.
TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, what it is
It is what it is, I
MEMBER WEISMAN:
know.
BOARD ASST.: I just have one request,
until the Board is able to place the entire
decision -- can we borrow the model for a
couple of weeks? We will keep it in a safe
place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to keep it and
(inaudible) place.
MRS. RIVERA: (Inaudible) no clue as to
how it's going to look either. Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, I'm
reiterating what I said, counsel, I stand
corrected on that. You're absolutely correct
and I do apologize for saying that.
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I do want to say one other thing that in
1974 the owners, and I don't think they were
the present owners of this property, but the
owners of the majority of the parcels in this
particular area placed pilings, drove pilings
down 14 feet into the sand because of the
severe erosion problem that was there. Today,
we have probably 90 feet of beach in front of
that bulkhead. It has been an asset to not
only the Mattituck Park District, of which I
have been a Commissioner of to this past year
for 30 years, and most of these properties
that the (inaudible) land has helped this
entire area amazingly.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. A comment on the
change in the Code. It should be clear, of
course, that the fact that it was changed in
the interim doesn't automatically invalidate
it and it caused us to review the reason why
the Code was changed at that point and decide
which kinds of properties it would be relevant
for and which ones not, because we certainly
have the authority to grant variance and, as I
understand, the debate on the changing of the
Code to include wetlands and other things had
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
to do with putting in houses that were too
large on properties that already -- if the
wetlands were included and it does not -- it's
not at all clear that the purposes of the Code
are changed are really necessary to a property
like this. Another way of saying it is, I
think we did feel that if this were the kind
of property that the Town Board was looking at
when they decided to amend the Code, they
might not have amended the Code in this way.
The point is there can be, there has to
be reasons why we might think that the change
in the Code would not apply to this case
because sometimes it does apply. So it's
never automatically just because it's changed.
MRS. RIVERA: The unfortunate thing is
that it's such a blanket Code change that I
would say that probably over 95 percent of the
homes that exist today are nonconforming as
they are originally built. With the Code
change now, they're all -- even my house,
which is a fairly large piece of property and
I happen to be on a corner is nonconforming.
MEMBER SIMON: But that doesn't mean that
they would have been allowed right now, that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
just because they're nonconforming and they're
grandfathered.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think the point
to be made from all of this is that, if the
Board is considering granting this or a
variance approaching this level for this
property, the thing to concentrate on would be
the fact that it was made nonconforming by
virtue of the new Code, but also the
neighborhood, okay, that's really going to be
the controlling issue in granting a variance
such as this. The neighborhood, what does the
rest of the neighborhood look like?
MRS. RIVERA: Well, if you're familiar
with the neighborhood --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I am.
MRS. RIVERA: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And I don't mean to
make a leading suggestion, but that, to me,
that's how it can be justified. Not to try
and read the mind of the Board that passed the
law and say we're not going to apply it to
these types of properties. I think what you
have to do is look at the surrounding
neighborhood and say, is a variance of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
degree does it
it (inaudible)
MEMBER SIMON:
germane argument.
MRS. RIVERA:
change the neighborhood or does
or is it similar.
That's clearly a more
Ail the homes on that end
are pretty much most of them are 50-foot width
lots and they're only option, if you do want
to extend, is to go up and over that's the
only -- because they have such a small side
yard setbacks. Most of them were built in the
60s and 70s.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I understand
there's a lot of physical constraints, they're
unique lots. There's a lot of countervailing
arguments, but I just want the Board to focus
on --
MRS. RIVERA: And the bulkheads were put
in in the 70s. There was never a bulkhead
until the erosion problem happened and so that
bulkhead would never come into place, you
know, as a setback from the bulkhead in
today's Code.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
I understand.
Any other questions?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Rivera, what I
really need and I think Leslie was kind of
lining up to that is just a letter to you
indicating what we have now and what we have
adding up to that
just tell us --
MRS. RIVERA:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
42 percent. If you could
Well, it's right here on --
It's in there.
How much of a change is it?
Is it like a half-percent or is it -- Is it a
half-percent over or under? He doesn't give
the existing percentages, though, of what's
there before the change compared to the
proposed.
MRS. RIVERA:
about this --
BOARD ASST.:
lot coverage.
MRS. RIVERA:
BOARD ASST.:
on the new law --
MRS. RIVERA:
BOARD ASST.:
Okay, so you're talking
The lot coverage, only the
Of the existing --
Of the existing today based
Okay.
-- and the proposed.
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MRS. RIVERA: Where is that taken from?
Is that taken from the Coastal Erosion Line or
the bulkhead?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, whatever his
calculation, the same calculation --
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: -- but as a before as of
yesterday and then proposed as of next month.
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: That helps and then we can
put that in the decision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if we have
another hearing some time we'll know exactly
what we had and so on and so forth.
MRS. RIVERA: Sure. I'll have the
surveyor (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else have
any comments, on the Board, regarding this
application?
Is there anybody in the public that would
-- I didn't see any hands, so I'm just
continuing -- is there anybody in the public
that would like to comment either for or
against this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing --
MRS. RIVERA: Before you do, Linda, do
you want me to include the deck overhang in
that calculation or just the actual house
structure?
BOARD ASST.: The deck overhang because
it's more than 18 inches, so you include the
entire overhand with the columns because
that's part of the --
MRS. RIVERA:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
the old calculation it's
house you want now?
BOARD ASST.: No.
no, it's --
MRS. RIVERA:
Okay.
-- main building.
Alright, that's --
strictly just the
The old calculation --
You want a calculation with
the existing house, as it exists today, based
on the new Code, what that percentage is?
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. RIVERA:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. RIVERA:
BOARD ASST.:
Yes.
Okay.
Yes, correct.
You have the rest on here.
Yes.
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ZBA Town of $outhold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN:, You have proposed at 42
percent. So all we want to do is backtrack
and look at --
MRS. RIVERA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- so we can compare the
increase.
BOARD ASST.: It may be a quarter-
percent, but whatever that is --
MRS. RIVERA: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
MRS. RIVERA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much. So I'll make a motion closing the
hearing --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
MEMBER SIMON: Subject to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- subject to the
receipt of that information that we just
requested from Mrs. Rivera. I have a second.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6146 - CJCl Corp.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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"Request for Variance under Section 280-
50C, based on the Building Inspector's January
11, 2008 amended Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed business building
(retail business and contractor's yard) in
this B-General Business Zone District, which
building will have frontage greater than 60
linear feet along the street. Location of
Property: 74495 Route 25, Greenport; CTM
1000-45-4-4.1."
CHAIR~LAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, can I just
break into this conversation for a second?
Would you state your name of the record,
sir?
MR. BARRON: Yes, Shawn Barron from
Suffolk Environmental Consulting, Corp.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you? We
need some green cards from you and --
MR. BARRON:
those for you.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I was going to ask. I have
And the affidavit
of posting.
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ZBA Town of South°ld ~ April 24, 2008
MR. BARRON: Yeah, I have the affidavit
of posting and some of the green cards for
you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank
you very much.
MR. BARRON: You're welcome.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. BARRON: You' re welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, I
apologize.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, the
application shows a two-story retail building
with a garage. It's a common area which
contains (inaudible) 12 foot by 8 feet, 40
foot by 40 foot retail office space, some
second floor accessory apartments and an
unfinished attic of about 3,772 square feet
and the application is also under review by
the Planning Board and the Trustees because
there are wetlands. We have comments from the
Planning Board indicating there are wetlands
on the property to the rear of the proposed
building site and we have plans indicating
what the elevation and the floor plans of the
proposed building would be.
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I think at this point we should just hear
what you have to say about this application
and take it from there.
MR. BARRON: Certainly. We actually have
two permits from the Trustees. This was
granted wetland approval and I should state
that the real basis of our hardship is the
wetlands on-site, but I'll back up a little
bit here.
I'm here
Construction.
for Colin Ratze, Ratze
Colin owns a pretty large
contracting business. He owns this property
now and, I guess, uses it as a work-site, but
with all respect to Mr. Ratze, it's kind of an
eyesore now and we really want to clean it up
and he needs some space to house all his
equipment, have a little office and then
rental space to help fund the whole project.
The property is on Main Road. At the border
of the Village of Greenport and Southold, kind
of at the entrance of Southold and this would
be an opportunity to really dress it up a
little bit, actually. We've got some nice
landscaping proposed and it's going to be much
better than it looks today.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
size of the structure is required by
The
Mr. Ratze to house his equipment. He does
have a large business and lots of large
equipment and we want to keep it inside. So
working off that size of the building, I think
it's 8690 is about the overall footprint,
8,690 square feet. We're certainly aware of
that 60-foot requirement and if we were to
reduce that width of the building to 60 feet
given that we have a required square footage
from Mr. Ratze, that would make the building
longer and encroach closer to the wetlands.
So part of the consideration for this land is
that we made it wider to increase the wetlands
setback and tried to make the Trustees happy
and the DEC happy, but that wetlands permit is
still pending.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is your proposed
setback?
MR. BARRON: From the wetland?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, from the wetland.
MR. BARRON: Currently, the building
itself is proposed 121 feet from the wetlands
as they're shown on the map and the parking
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
area would be 65 feet from the freshwater
wetlands on-site.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You say those two
permits are pending.
MR. BARRON: We have a Trustee permit
that's been issued.
MEMBER OLIVA: When did that issue,
please?
MR. BARRON: Excuse me?
MEMBER OLIVA: What was the date on that
issuance of the Trustees?
MR. BARRON: I'm pretty sure it was
submitted as part of the application. Let me
see here, September 19, 2007 and eight copies
of the Trustees' authorization were submitted
as part of the application.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'm just asking that
because we received a letter from the Planning
Board that they're waiting for the DEC to come
in and flag the wetlands and then have the
Trustees go on and look at it again.
MR. BARRON: Yeah, the DEC and the
Trustees are separate entities. The Trustees
have issued two wetlands permits based on the
wetlands boundary that's out there. The DEC
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
has been to the property and has redelineated
the wetland boundary as they see it, which is
different from the wetland boundary that's on
the site plan and that's going to be trouble
for us with the DEC. They'll require 100 feet
and this might actually require some revision
to comply with the DEC wetland setbacks. In
which case, we'd actually probably have a
greater hardship for the road frontage cause
we have to keep trying to stay back and then
actually move closer to the road, but we
haven't had a chance -- the DEC was only out
there I think Monday to reflag the wetlands.
We haven't had a new survey drawn up, but
we were trying to get a letter from the
Planning Board basically a letter just stating
that they overall approved of the proposed
improvement, but they didn't want to comment
on that just based on the wetlands question.
So I imagine the Trustees, I'm not sure that
they've revisited the site to look at the
wetlands. I know they were probably supposed
to send Mr. Terry out to take a look at the
property again with respect to the wetlands,
but I'm pretty confident that the DEC has
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
flagged it the w~y they flagged it. So we're
going to have to deal with that anyway
regardless of what the Trustees said.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's why I wanted that
on the record.
MR. BARRON: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll continue with my
questions.
MR. BARRON: Certainly.
CHAIRMJ%N GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record.
MR. RATZE: My name is Colin Ratze, I'm
the owner of this property.
A couple of things that you need to know.
One, there's a deli to my left and there's a
resident on my right, which is a working
resident. I actually -- I planned this
building almost four years ago in two
buildings. I was going build the Historic
building that is right next door to the
Planning Department and I was going to put a
barn in the back to do all my business out of
that looked like it was in the Hamptons.
After spending $60,000.00 I gave up. I pushed
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the two buildings together and came up with
this building.
I made the front of the building one-
story so that it could come closer to the road
because you changed the law of two roofs 33-
feet high. So now my neighbor had started a
new deli and my other neighbor has a
residence. I tried to push the building back
inside bevuase it's a contractor's yard, even
though it's going to have two stores in the
front, one being my business, and one being
something else an architect or something. I
wanted the building to be wide so that you
couldn't see into the back.
The DEC, you know, it's a small town,
came to my property and was in a very good
mood because there was 150 trees on my
property and thought I cut them all down. My
son started a wood business and got robbed by
his wood business. He's 11 years old and
makes $75.00 a week cutting wood. The trees
were put there by a friend. The DEC guy saw
them and he thought I cut them on the
property. The problem was the DEC couldn't
tell what kind of trees they were and didn't
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notice that they don't even grow on my
property. Okay, so to make everything
complicated, he decided to be in a bad mood
and walked 33 feet closer to my building. So
that's what has come up, but it's okay cause I
went to the bank, which was just built and
stood six feet off the parking lot in three
feet of water with my life jacket on because I
didn't want to drown.
So I am definitely the highest property
in the area and I am definitely going to have
the most room to the wetlands. So what I
proposed to try to do was for the resident to
the right is to try to have my shop big enough
to bring the trucks inside. All of you know
me, I live on Wiggin Street in Greenport. All
of my trucks go to my property are in my
garage right now, but I'm just getting too big
so half of my stuff is here. I came here
today in a 40-foot truck. So I would like to
bring everything into my garage and kind of
hide it. Put everything in the back of the
garage and not take away from Mr. Domino's
business cause he has an antique business over
there. There was also (inaudible) for me that
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
you wanted me to connect my property to Mr.
Domino's. I don't think he wants me to turn
my 18-wheelers around in his
didn't want me to connect it,
blame him.
property, so he
which I don't
Okay, so I tried to keep the local
business here. I've tried to put my employees
above me, which I only can put one apartment
because I'm on clay, alright, and I tried to
have a retail space that would help the deli
to the left and the contractor's space on the
right. So everything would go down one
alleyway and one alleyway back, but because of
the laws changing I've had a hard time trying
to do this. I also have gone almost broke
doing it.
If I wanted to make this building a
little cheaper, I could make it out of metal
like everybody else on the North Road and
really have a piece of crap in 20 years. So
I've tried to make this with cedar siding, I
tried to make it nice. I tried to make it --
I actually am kind of upset because I don't
know if you're all familiar with Dave Capell's
building, but I built that. Okay, I've built
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the side that just got hit by a car, I built
that 15 years ago to match the right side. I
wanted to build a building that's brick that's
the Historic Building and I wanted to put that
in the front with big steps and, you know,
sacks of potato so it would look like it owned
everything, but you've taken all my money, I
can't. So the best I can do now is to build
the front the way I have now in the plans and
make it look presentable and nice and try to
keep the construction in the back and I
actually added a hallway in between the two
buildings so that the stores could rent the
back garage space if they wanted to without
intruding in my business where I could, say if
he wanted to rent I could give him five feet
of my garage and just put a door in the
hallway. Then if he moves out I can just take
the door out.
So I've tried all my ways and I'm asking
-- across the street I have the gas station,
which is well over 80 feet, Riverhead Lumber,
which has not only close to 80 feet it's well
over 80 feet. He's probably three times the
size. The bank with the two buildings down
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the street they passed right through the law
that I didn't pass through, but our Building
Inspector Mr. Verity, he doesn't like to stamp
plans and he doesn't have any signature on
plans so he kind of forgot to sign mine too.
So I lost out on that double garage.
So what I'm trying to do and I know the
Supervisor of Southold Town and the Mayor of
Greenport have both come to me on my design to
ask what I was going to do. So I don't know,
drive by yourself. I'd love to see it look
better, but tomorrow you're going to have a
70-foot crane there cause there's nothing I
can do. I can't hide anything. I mean I can
put a 70-foot crane in the back of the
building and hide it and you wouldn't even see
it, but I can't do that now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, do you want
to reflect on this at all?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Briefly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's let
Leslie finish her -- Mrs. Weisman finish her
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
No, we want you to stay there. We need
the Environmental Consultant, too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Procedurally, okay,
character of the neighborhood, perfectly
appropriate. It's perfectly reasonable to
reflect on the variety of the scale and the
different elevations of the buildings that are
on both sides of Main Road, east and west.
It's characterized by a variety of different
sizes really, some of which certainly are
above 60 lineal feet. I think, procedurally,
what I'm aware of is that this is also under
review by DEC and by the Planning Board for
site plan and so what I'd like to do, for your
benefit and for your convenience, is to try
and coordinate those reviews as quickly as we
can and as successfully as we can because as
you can well appreciate if we are mandated, or
you're mandated, by the DEC to increase your
setback from the wetlands from what the
Trustees suggested that will change your site
plan and it will, as you've already pointed
out, create a closer relationship between the
front of your building and the street. The
scale, therefore, will have a greater impact.
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The one thing I think that is very useful
is that in the architectural plans you've
presented the front elevation you're proposing
the massing is broken down by three gables,
which really creates a much more contextural,
much more successful contextural solution or
proposal than what might be the case if it was
an unbroken elevation, which would be rather
severe.
So I think that bodes well for your
attempt to create something that works well
within the context of --
MR. RATZE: I think that in most
situations we all wait on each other, but I
think here you all have to be the leader of
all the groups and I'll explain to you why.
One, it's a contractor's yard so I want to
hide the stuff in the back so I would like to
get the 80 feet. Whether the DEC says I can't
come closer or not, I still need the 80 feet.
I can't go any bigger than 80 feet because I
need to come in on the right side there's a
driveway. The left side I'm leaving open for
Mr. Domino. I've also pushed the house back
for parking so Mr. Domino has a retail space
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
so he could see the deli. I've also pushed it
back for the residence space. I mean I hope
my neighbor's playing in my yard as far as I'm
concern, I could care less, but by you stating
that you want me to have the 80 feet and
pushing that I can have the 80 feet, that
almost tells everybody else that you're
okaying it as long as it's where it is and the
DEC would almost have to follow-through and
the Planning Board, too. I think that you
need to instead of waiting for everybody else,
I think that you need to step up as the
leaders and tell them what you want because it
could go around, it's already gone for four
years and I think that -- you know, this is
kind of funny to most people, but to me it's
not. I'm a contractor and I put up with all
the people telling me, oh, well start next
week, we'll start next week. I have about
$300,000.00 worth of deposits in my bank
because people are trying to book me, but
they're never able to book me because they
can't get there because they're going back and
forth.
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So I feel that you really need to be the
leaders on this and say, look, it's a town you
come in and there's a building across the
street is well over the 80. He's also set
back. He's put small peaks in so we're not
coming into a tunnel when we come into
Greenport. He's put the big building in the
back, he's trying to house his things. I
employ 16 employees. I'm one of the biggest
contractors out here and I gotta tell you
something, I'm ready to move.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Ratze, we have a
Notice of Disapproval which is only referring
to the nonconforming proposed 80 linear feet
Code permits a maximum of
of frontage when the
MR. RATZE: 60, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't have a variance
before us for a rear yard setback.
MR. RATZE: I understand and I'm hoping
that you're not going to, but -- I'm not
worried about the rear, but what I'm saying is
that if you can sometime meet and say that you
like the 80 feet as long as it can stay like
this. The rear setback, let me explain
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
something, the rear setback is 121 right now.
The DEC gentleman came to the property, like I
said, and the DEC can change every two years.
There's marks on the trees where the ribbons
were, but the kids went out in the last four
years and played paintball and one of them was
the DEC and the other ones were the shirts.
So they took the ribbons off all the trees.
If the DEC went out there with an axe like
they do in Maine and all the poor countries,
we wouldn't have these problems, but the DEC
seems to move their ribbons as they feel to
move them, okay. I'm not sure having Costello
Marine's equipment on my property benefitted
me that day, but it sure didn't do me any
great thing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me clarify, you're
saying the proposed building setback as it
site plan before us the site
appears
plan is
MR.
on this
RATZE: It was 121 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and the --
MR. RATZE: The DEC just came in and --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and the parking
area is 65 and you're saying what? The
Trustees have granted you a permit?
MR. BARRON:
you, yes.
MR. RATZE:
As per what you see before
Yes. They had no problems
with it because the bank is six feet
feet of water.
MR. BARRON:
needs to concern
from four
I don't think this Board
itself with the rear yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No --
MR. BARRON: The only thing we're here
for is really the 80 feet in the front.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Leslie's point,
Leslie's point, I think, is they can go ahead
and grant or not the 80 feet, but if the DEC
then makes you move your building forward more
all bets may be off on the 80 feet --
MR. BARRON: That fine.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- because
(inaudible) may have more of a concern about
it being closer to the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
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MR. RATZE: Well, if you look at the
plan, honestly, I could split the difference
on this and if you split the difference on
these two buildings on this plan that you're
looking at, I'm not even hitting the back of
the cars right now. So if I need five feet or
something, we could come forward five feet
without a big problem, but I'm trying to keep
it like it said not a tunnel and by you guys
setting the motion that we're going to allow -
- we're thinking about allowing him at 80 feet
I think it'll get this thing on the road. The
DEC really can't, in my opinion, do too much
to me because like I said I took a picture of
me behind the bank in a life jacket and waders
in three feet of water and I'm six feet from
the parking lot and not even 75 feet from the
wetlands. I'm the highest property out of
everyone there and what's good for one is good
for all.
MR. BARRON: If the Board saw fit to
grant a variance for this proposal and we did
have to go closer to the street cause of the
DEC. Obviously, we would have to come back to
this Board. I imagine you would make that a
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condition that if it goes any closer to the
street we would have to revisit this Board to
reconsider the 80 feet. What I'm hearing is
if it's closer to the road the 80 feet might
be more of an issue.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would be, yes.
MR. BARRON: Okay, and if --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's my only concern.
I don't have a problem --
MR. RATZE: I understand what you're --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- with the 80 feet as
proposed because you've designed that front
elevation, as I said, to breakdown the mass of
the length of the building.
MR. BARRON: That was a consideration.
MR. RATZE: One more thing before you,
I'm sorry, Mike Domino's building is, I want
to say, 25 feet closer to the road as a
straight two-story building. My 42 feet in
the front by 80 is only one story. So even if
I was to come up to Mr. Domino's line with the
other people, it would still not be a tunnel.
Okay, so I don't think the Board here would
have a problem with that, but --
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MEMBER WEISMAN: When you're talking
about tunnel, you must be referring to --
MR. RATZE: Well, if you have a straight-
up structure, straight-up two stories straight
up in the air, it's a tunnel.
MR. BARRON: I think he means as you are
coming into Southold --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You mean the side yard?
MR. BARRON: No.
MR. RATZE: No. I'm saying as you drive
your car into Southold --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time,
please.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're talking about the
street wall?
MR. RATZE: Yeah, as you walk down the
sidewalk it would be a tunnel if you had a
two-story building. The two buildings -- the
building in the front of my 80 feet is two
stores, which is a one-story building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. RATZE: Which was a very beautiful
building with Yankee gutters, but now it's a
big V. You know, I mean --
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's get one thing
straight right now, sir, and that is you've
not been before this Board before, okay, on
this application. So whenever you refer to
anything in this Town it's other Boards you've
been before, it's not been this Board.
Alright, that's number one. Number two, okay,
what that gentleman down there who is our
counsel and I apologize for pointing at him in
front of our secretary, tells us what to do he
counsels us. He would be the determining
factor if we deal with this variance only at
this time. No matter how many times you say
it, he is the determining factor because he is
counsel to this Board and he is the Assistant
Town Attorney of this Town and we have great
confidence and feeling regarding him.
So diffuse the situation as of right now
on anything else that you intend to say and
let your consultant do his job along with our
architect who is a wonderful Board member.
MR. RATZE: You're right. He's very
good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. RATZE: He does his job well.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So please let's
it. Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to hear you
finish your presentation.
MR. BARRON: Thank you.
the width of the building is
do
As Colin said
also to hide a
lot of the construction equipment that's going
to be stored on-site. Again, I submit that
our hardship is the DEC's -- the wetlands that
we have to keep away from the wetlands and we
have a certain size structure that we have to
deal with. Any closer we go to the wetlands
it's much more difficult and certainly not an
option now.
We submit that the amount of relief is
not substantial, especially given what exists
within the immediate neighborhood as stated
RBS, the Empire gas station, the building for
the bus depot, Hart's Hardware further up the
road all have frontages in excess of 60 feet.
The RBS might be actually close to 120 feet.
So it's certainly not going to set a
precedent, nor is it going to have an adverse
impact on the physical and environmental
conditions in the neighborhood. Moreover, I
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
would submit that the proposed improvements
are going to actually have a benefit to the
environment because we're going to have
drainage now on-site. We're going to have
stormwater runoff control where now none
exists. The building will have leaders and
gutters that empty into drywells. There's
going to be drains in the parking lots, etc.
that should improve the environmental
conditions at the site.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Did Planning Board
do SEQRA on this project?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think so.
MR. BARRON: I don't think so.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, it's not --
it may not necessarily be a problem because
this is a lot line or lot area variance, it's
probably a Type II action for this Board, but
I was just wondering if they had made any
conclusions.
BOARD ASST.: It's still pending.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MR. BARRON: As Mr. Ratze also pointed
out that because of the width of the front
elevation the structure has been built in an
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
effort to reduce the massing so it's not so
towering and close to the road.
I guess I really don't
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
the points that, you know,
-- if you have any
I really have raised
I had some concern
about, which is procedurally how to resolve
this multiple agency review. We will talk to
our counsel and see whether or not an
examination is (inaudible). I mean my
suggestion would be, frankly, and I would like
your comments, to hold the hearing open so
that you don't have to do anything else.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I would say first
let's hear from anyone else who might be here
and then I can talk about what we can do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I mean it's not
infrequent that Town agencies make decisions
and then the DEC either agrees or disagrees
and if they disagree often times, more often
then applicants care, you have to come back
and then get your Town plans revised in
accordance with what the DEC wants. You know,
I don't think this Board needs to wait until
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the DEC does something. You know, I think if
Planning of ready to move ahead, if the
Trustees have already moved, and you know what
you want to do, you can do that, but let's
hear from anyone else who wants to speak.
MEMBER SIMON: First, my understanding is
that we can only decide 80 feet versus 60
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And as you pointed out if
we did decide for the 80 feet that would be
conditioned, if necessary, but in fact on not
being drafted changes to the building
regardless of who they were enforced by, DEC
and so forth. I think we can simply duck the
question of whether an approval by us would
provide ammunition in dealing subsequently
with other agencies. First of all, you can't
predict what will happen and secondly, we
don't do that. So I think that we have to
consider the 80 feet versus 60 feet on its
merits and as the plan is described right now
and I would encourage you to keep making those
points.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: No comment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll reserve any
comment for later.
Is there anybody in the audience would
like to speak for or against this application?
Mr. Domino, how are you today? Even
though I addressed you by your name, would you
please state your name for the record?
MR. DOMINO: My name is Michael Domino.
First of all, I'd like to thank you for the
opportunity to speak here and since it's been
a long time since I've been before the Zoning
Board of Appeals and I want to congratulate
you on having someone from our Legal
Department here and also a court reporter. I
think it's something that other agencies in
this Town should copy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. DOMINO: It would lead to fewer
problems down the road. I'd also like to
mention that I'm past president of North Fork
Environmental Council and I'm still on the
Board of Directors of North Fork Environmental
Council. I own the property to the east of
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Mr. Ratze's proposal and before I bought that
property I employed both Eastern Environmental
Science -- Services rather and Miller
Environmental, two respected organizations, to
make sure that I did not purchase property
that had wetlands on it. It may sound like a
contradiction to what you've heard, but I did
a phase I on the property and phase II before
I purchased it. Nowheres were wetlands ~noted
on the property that I own nor Mr. Ratze by
the Town Trustees nor the New York State
Wetlands Maps and that came into play later
when I submitted an application to build the
deli that Mr. Ratze referred to and suddenly I
had wetlands and I dealt with that issue. No
need to go into that, at this point.
My building was close enough to the road
so that DEC was not involved; however, you can
sense Mr. Ratze's frustration and I appreciate
the position that he's in. He's done nothing
wrong. I'm here to support his attempt to get
a variance on the 60-foot linear in the front.
I received the certified mail and I looked at
this. By the way, those of you know that I'm
a former science teacher, I got out my
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
microscope so I could read the plan, but I
spoke with Mr. Ratze and my wife and I
represent Greenport Heights Development, LLC,
have no objections to what he's done or what
he's stated to do and I think he's going to be
an asset to the situation.
I'm trying to say I believe that he's
correct in that he's being unfairly targeted
in the situation. He does own dry land, the
bank received -- went through the same process
and they're far closer to the real wetlands
than either I or Mr. Ratze and they went
through the process. Mr. Ratze also pointed
out that there is evidence that it was
flagged. By the way, the gentleman who
flagged it on Monday was the same gentleman
who flagged the property for me and he's much
more severe in this case than he was for me.
So I'm speaking in support of Mr. Ratze's
application. I also want to point out that
I'm going to submit a letter to you that shows
the conditional support because there was an
issue with the Town in my application
attempted to force Mr. Ratze and I to have the
crossover that he referred to. Neither of us
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
have ever been in favor of that, it's a whole
ball of wax, but to protect my -- as President
of Greenport Heights, I have to protect
Greenport Heights interests. My support is
conditional on my understanding that there is
no crossover shown on this proposal on the
site plan that they've prepared and legal
knows that we've been through this when I was
before the Planning Board.
If that issue should be resurrected
somehow by other agencies in this Town, is
what I'm saying, I will seek legal redress.
At no point in time have I ever been in favor
of contaminating my -- it's why I went through
phase I and phase II to make sure I was buying
clean property -- and to make it clear, if a
crossover should be pushed by the Planning
Board or whatever, I will seek redress.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Are you
going to give us something?
MR. DOMINO: Yes, I am, sir. A copy is
also going to go to Supervisor Russell and to
Mark Terry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. DOMINO: Thank you very much for the
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ZBA Town of Southotd - April 24, 2008
opportunity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
yOU ·
No problem. Thank
Anybody else who would like to speak for
or against this application?
Counsel, is there any reason why I
shouldn't close this hearing or should
recommend to the Board that they shouldn't
close this hearing?
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MR. BARRON: It's perfectly fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for being
here.
MR. BARRON: You're welcome.
~CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
141
HEARING #6153 - Michael Kenin
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
March 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions to the existing
single-family dwelling at less than the code-
required 35 ft. minimum front yard setback,
420 Lake View Drive, at Marion Lake, East
Marion; CTM 31-9-11."
This had gone through a series of Notice
of Disapprovals, it turns out it does not have
the same requirements as the setbacks from
tide lands because Lake Marion is, I
understand, a freshwater lake. So may I --
I'll reserve further questions after hearing
your presentation.
MR. BARRON: Thank you. Shawn Barron
from Suffolk Environmental Consulting,
Incorporated, for the applicant, Mr. Kenin.
As you correctly pointed out, there was
in the Notice of Disapproval it stated that we
had -- required a 75-foot setback from tidal
water bodies, but as you pointed out this is a
freshwater wetland, so that setback does not
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ZBA Town of
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apply. Simply we're here for a variance today
for a set of stairs with a roof over it. The
roof is totaling 36 square feet, with a 30-
foot setback. The existing structure is
located 18.8 feet from the front yard -- from
the street, I guess the right-of-way
currently.
We feel that this is a very minor
variance request. It's certainly not going to
have any impact on the neighborhood or the
environment. We have received Trustee permits
and, I believe, we have DEC approval as well.
You'll have to forgive me, Mr. Anderson was
supposed to be here for these things, but he's
not in the office this week and all this stuff
landed squarely in my lap. $o if I appear
slightly unprepared it's because I am. We
certainly have a Trustee permit for the
improvements, but really I'm kind of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can let us
know.
MR. BARRON: But really if you have any
questions, I don't really have much to
present. I think it's a very minor variance
request. It's a very small structure and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
don't believe it's going to impact anybody or
anything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to say
by the nature of the new Disapproval we have a
situation where it's still a great concern,
but that concern is now not within our --
germane, it's not germane to us, it's not
within our jurisdiction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What new Disapproval?
Is there one other than the April?
BOARD ASST.: The Building Department
amended it to remove the requirement
(inaudible) from the bulkhead.
MEMBER OLIVA: March
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I'll give you one, a copy.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, so
for a variance on the front
MR. BARRON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that --
10.
From the bulkhead.
you're only asking
yard setback.
Right. Only for
BOARD ASST.: I think you said that,
though. You're aware of that?
MR. BARRON: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so I have the new
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one then.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: He has it already.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have it.
BOARD ASST.: He has it already, we can
fax it later or tomorrow.
MEMBER SIMON: Just a --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I didn't
understand was on the April 1st notice it says
the lot coverage is less than the required 20
percent.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What does that mean?
BOARD ASST.: That means it's not over 20
percent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's conforming.
BOARD ASST.: It's a different Building
Inspector that's adding more (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
co~forming.
MEMBER SIMON:
He's saying it's okay.
So it's okay, it's
Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I've never seen a Notice
of Disapproval say it's okay. They usually
say it's not okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: Right. We don't want to
open that up and have them list everything.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's just the front
yard setback and that's really because the
side yard, the (inaudible) side yard, is also
a front yard because it fronts along the
right-of-way.
MR. BARRON: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so it's really
for a set of steps and a little covered
entrance on the side of the house?
MR. BARRON: 36 square feet that just
affords some protection.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there not something
also on the seaward side of the house on the
rear (inaudible)?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BARRON:
Marion Lake.
There are a proposed wood
deck, a proposed plant area, a proposed patio,
a proposed pergola, a set of wood decks and
stairs to be removed and I guess some new
stairs constructed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, but there is no
variance required for additional construction
on the seaward side?
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. BARRON: No.
BOARD ASST.: It's a freshwater pond.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Fine, so then the
only variance before us is the very small
increase. There's a door there now and you
just want to -- Do you have any idea -- I
should finish my sentence. You just wanted to
cover a set of steps. You don't have to jump
out of the door, basically, to the ground.
MR. BARRON: It's where the driveway is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. BARRON: It will --
MEMBER WEISMAN: My question then is at
the moment there's a pretty tight turnaround
for parking. You know, you pull in and
there's room for two cars and then you have to
jacknife back out.
MR. BARRON: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) drive out
rather than back out to the right of way. I
only found one car on the premise when I went.
That will make it pretty difficult, if not
impossible, for a second car to be in that
space. Can you -- do you have enough
information to address that or is that not
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
something that --
MR. BARRON: Except that
probably add, just looking at
I -- they could
it quickly, they
could probably add a small area. If you look
at the survey on the west side of the
dwelling, there's a drywell. Recharge, RD.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. BARRON: Just to the west of that I
imagine you could probably have a turnaround
section. So if there was a car there you
could back up, turn into that, and then be
able to --
MEMBER OLIVA: It's real tight.
MR. BARRON: It's certainly tight.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you're really
basically just going to get one car in there
that's going to come back out into the right-
of-way, you know, reverse and turnaround in
the little L-part where the house is and then
go out. It's tight, but it's actually tight
now anyway.
MR. BARRON: It is what it is. Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You'd still have
problems with guests or whatever backing in
and out. I don't think it's substantial
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
enough to, you know, offset the request for
what I think is a very small non-intrusive
addition into the, I guess, right-of-way.
It's really in the side yard, architectural
side yard. It would just improve the
appearance of the house and make it more
functional. I don't have a problem with it.
I just want the transcript of the hearing to
reflect the recognition that will impinge upon
what is functionally an important turnaround
space because one does not want to be backing
out of a right-of-way. It's a fairly long
distance, you know, to the other road and --
MR. BARRON: You have the other right-of-
ways. Duly recognized, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no questions.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Just a question
about this backing out. The backing out onto
the right-of-way would not mean -- would that
mean backing out all the way down the right-
of-way or just to back out onto it and then go
forward?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BARRON:
MEMBER SIMON:
That's right.
That's what I was thinking.
So if that's the case then
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I'm not sure, since I probably disagree with
my colleague a little bit here, there's
certainly no requirement that people who have
driveways on ordinary Town roads have to be
able to drive frontwards out of their
driveways. It comes up only if it's a main
road and this is not only not a main road, it
isn't even a road. So I'm not sure that's a
major consideration. As long as they wouldn't
have to back all the way down the right-of-
way, which is not the case.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It depends on how many
cars are parked there. No, it's even
difficult to -- yes, it's a right-of-way. It
really isn't a driveway. Well, the part that
I guess is really -- is technically adjacent
to their house, rather than in front of their
house, could be construed as a driveway. It's
just a little awkward and my concern is
strictly just the problems with cars, that's
all. Not at all with the addition, so it's
just simply something to note. It isn't going
to prevent a decision on my part, but I think
it's worth noting because I realize I have a
fairly large car and when I pulled in to where
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the car was parked I had to back out, swing
this way onto the right-of-way and then drive
straight out. If that's reduced and it's one
car then it makes that turning radius a little
tighter.
MR. BARRON: A little tighter.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't want to belabor
it.
MEMBER OLIVA: Your request for variance
is really just for that little porch. I was
just environmentally worried about that
bulkhead and the original pictures show that
whole land there fairly level and now it looks
to me as though that land is sloping more
toward that bulkhead and I hope whoever put it
in knows what they were doing, frankly. It
worries me, but it's not in our jurisdiction,
so that's --
MR. BARRON: You know, we will have the
project fenced during construction to contain
if there's water disturbance.
MEMBER OLIVA: I know that.
MR. BARRON: But --
MEMBER OLIVA: I looked overboard and I
looked at that big -- how many 20-25 feet that
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
big bulkhead holding that whole big bank in?
I mean it's big and the land, we have pictures
that you submitted that show the land fairly
level from the house to the bulkhead. It's
tipping, just to let you know.
MR. BARRON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No other comments.
Is there anyone else would like to speak
in favor or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6129 - Lia Polites
and Kevin Ferro
BOARD ASST.: We need affidavits.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need affidavits.
Mr. Yakaboski, please.
We're not -- we're opening this, we're
not reading the legal notice.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you. Was there
anything else? Let me check.
No, you're fine. That was it, thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MR. YAKABOSKI: Mr. Chairman, you folks
have had a long,.hard morning. You've heard
me once before. My record is in, although we
didn't have a transcript as yet, I --
BOARD ASST.: We've got it available if
you'd like --
MR. YAKABOSKI: Beg your pardon?
BOARD ASST.: We got it yesterday, the
transcript.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Oh, very well.
BOARD ASST.: It is entered into the file
as of yesterday.
MR. YAKABOSKI: What I would like to do
is refrain from taking your time at this
point. I don't think it's necessary, we've
had this discussion before. You know why
we're here and that is that we had some
incorrect information regarding an adjoining
owner and that's been corrected by new notices
to the adjoining owner and if there's anyone
who wishes to comment, you know, I'll defer
until that time. Unless anyone has any new
questions since --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, my only
question is, have you had any discussion with
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
counsel regarding the opening of this hearing?
MR. YAKABOSKI: I'm sorry, with who?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: With the counsel
that's representing the people next door, have
you had any --
MR. YAKABOSKI: I don't know of any
attorney that's representing the adjoining
owners.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh. Okay, thank
yo~/.
MR. GROSS: I'm an attorney representing
an adjoining owner.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Oh,
MR. GROSS: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: We just
yesterday, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you.
you are. I'm sorry.
received notice
Come on up. Thank
MR. GROSS: Good afternoon. Amiel Gross,
Tuomey, Latham and Shea, Kelly, Dubin and
Quartararo for Mr. Patrick Higgins and Ms.
Jennifer Higgin$. They're the owners of 410
and 484 Jackson Street, which is the two lots
that are directly east of the applicant's
property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
I've got the tax map here if anyone on
the Board would like to see the location of
the Higgins' property in relation to the
applicant's.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the only
question is that the Higgins' property has
actually been subdivided and has two specific
lots where the applicant that came before us
has only one piece of property with two
specific buildings on them.
to them both as dwellings,
that correct?
MR. GROSS:
the two parcels.
We're referring
so to speak; is
Yes, it is. The Higgins own
They're husband and wife and
they own them together. For all practical
purposes here, it's essentially one lot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They took title to
both parcels, I don't mean to cut you off, in
both names?
MR. GROSS: I believe they're separately
held. Is that --
MS. HIGGINS: They are.
MR. GROSS: Title is Mr. Higgins owns one
lot and Mr. and Mrs. Higgins own the parcel
where the home is situated.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MR. GROSS: With the Board's permission
we'd like to submit our comments. We have a
letter that summarizes our client's comments
and with your permission I'd like to make them
part of the record. May I approach?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
MR. GROSS: Thanks.
I was just going to briefly run through.
I know it's getting a bit late here in the
afternoon. Unless
take a look at it?
MEMBER OLIVA:
anyone would like time to
You can talk.
MR. GROSS: Sure.
MR. YAKABOSKI: May I just interject,
you happen to make one for me?
yOU ·
MR. GROSS: I think I do have a copy for
Sorry about that.
i'd just like to say at the outset on
did
behalf of the Higgin$ that they have no
opposition to this second structure as it
exists and there would be no opposition if the
applicant were simply renovating what's there.
They understand that it's a preexisting
nonconforming use or structure and that it was
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
there when they purchased the property and
that's not their objection. If the applicant
wanted to renovate it, no problem.
The opposition and objection here is the
substantial enlargement of that second
dwelling from what is a cottage into what is
essentially another full-blown house, another
primary dwelling, if you will, that's over
3,000 square feet. So that's the -- what's
been applied for and the subject of this
hearing. So we wanted to make our comments
heard on that basis.
I'll just briefly run through the
arguments. First is that we agree with the
Building Inspector's determination and
implementation of the Code and that is that by
definition the second dwelling in a zone that
only permits one dwelling per lot is, by
definition, a nonconforming use and as a
nonconforming use under the Code it cannot be
enlarged. We defer to the judgment of the
Town Attorney, but in this case we support the
Building Inspector's interpretation that this
application would be an improper enlargement
of a nonconforming use.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: May I ask how you
reconcile that view with the Appellate
Division's decision in Dawson v Town of
Southold Zoning Board?
MR. GROSS: You know, it's -- that is
authority that suggests otherwise and, you
know, we're not here to necessarily say that
that's bad law and, you know, it certainly is
one interpretation. I think I'll just state
that we support the interpretation of the
Building Inspector and leave it at that.
Second, if the Zoning Board determines
that this is not a preexisting nonconforming
use and thus reversing what the Building
Inspector has determined, it certainly is a
nonconforming structure and we also would
submit that under the Code this proposed
project would be a significant enlargement of
that nonconforming structure. We've attached
to our submission here the precedent from this
Board in the Walz decision and believe that it
applies in this case. The facts were somewhat
different, but if you recall in that case the
applicant came before the Board and basically
said we're going to stay within the footprint.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
This is a nonconforming structure, we're going
to build up rather than out and the Board said
no that's an enlargement of the nonconforming
structure and therefore it's improper. We
believe that same rationale applies in this
case and that this is a very significant
enlargement of -- if the Board chooses to
determine that it's a nonconforming structure,
it's unquestionably a significant enlargement
and we believe not permitted by the Code.
Third, we would point out the
precedential value of this decision and I'm
sure the Board is well aware of, you know, I
believe there are numerous lots in this Town
that have preexisting nonconforming second
dwellings. So this is quite an important
issue and we believe that if this application
is permitted that the floodgates will be
opened such that everyone in this Town will be
able to come before this Board or not come
before this Board to have the Building
Inspector approve substantial enlargements.
So we would caution the Board to consider the
implications of this as far as the precedent
that it would set and, in fact, we believe
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that it would be setting the wrong precedent
because it would result in expansion of
nonconforming structures rather than the
reduction and as this Board is well aware,
strong policy in the state to reduce
nonconforming uses and structures and in deed
it's in the Southold Zoning Code as one of the
very purposes the gradual elimination of
nonconforming uses. So we would hope that the
Board would rule consistent with that purpose
and set what we believe is the correct
precedent for the Town of Southold.
Fifth and finally, I just wanted to
address the issue of variance because if you
look at the relief that's sought before the
Board it's sort of if not one, if not two,
then it appears the applicant is seeking a
variance and we believe that not one piece of
evidence has been presented or actually could
be presented in this case that would support a
variance in this situation. This is a cottage
that purports to be enlarged by 100 percent.
It's 1500 square feet, at the end of the day
you'd have over a 3,000 square foot second
dwelling. That is significant under -- I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
not going to cite cases, but as you well know,
that's doubling in size of nonconforming use
or structure. We can't see that there's any
hardship to not being able to do this. If
they want to renovate this grandfathered
structure, the Higgins has no problem with
that. It's this just huge inflated doubling
actually that is the problem and we don't see
any hardship in not being able to do that. We
would point out there are adverse physical and
environmental potential impacts with this
application because it would be increasing,
doubling floor space. It would be adding
bathrooms, bedrooms, and this is an
environmentally sensitive area, as you know,
right on the Peconic Bay and an upgrade in
sanitary, it would have environmental impacts.
The last point on the variance and this
will be my final point is regarding the
undesirable character that this building would
generate in the neighborhood and I'd like to
introduce to the Board Ms. Jennifer Higgins
who is the owner to comment on that because as
a resident who lives there she has firsthand
knowledge of the character of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
neighborhood. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you?
you?
Hello. How are
MRS. HIGGINS: Good thank you. How are
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good.
MRS. HIGGINS: Really just what we are
opposed to here is any interpretation here
that would allow what is listed in the
preexisting C of O as an accessory seasonal
dwelling to be enlarged, as Amiel pointed out,
basically doubled in size to create what is a
second home. A second single-family dwelling
on a lot where there already, you kwow, there
already is one house.
Up and down Jackson Street there are a
lot of houses that have some kind of accessory
building, none of them come anywhere close in
size or scope, as far as I can tell, I haven't
been in all of them, in terms of usage. I
know Vince Toosey (sic) has a big three-car
with some space up above, I don't know if he's
got bedrooms up there or what, but it's clear
to me that no one has two homes on one lot.
I think the bigger picture of the Town of
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162
Southold I know there are many, many, many of
these preexisting structures throughout the
town. You know, I think if you set -- this is
a lot to go through, you will have lots of
people coming in here standing before this
Board wanting to enlarge and put a second home
on their property. I understand that their
desire is to share it with their family, to
use it only for family use, I'm sure that's
the case; however, in three years, five years,
ten years something changes, they move out.
What's going to happen then? It's two houses
on one lot. That is, as far as I understand
it, not allowed under Southold Code.
I know -- I read the transcript from the
last hearing. I know that the point was made
several times over by Mr. Yakaboski that we,
you know, people -- we seem so willing to rush
into, well, this is Southold, you can't have
two houses, you can't have two houses. That's
what we do. I think that's the point. This
is Southold, that's not part of the Code here.
This is not a bedroom community closer to the
city where we have high density housing.
So those are our concerns.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Higgins, just
on the point of -- you have approximately how
much in total acreage?
MRS. HIGGINS: I believe it's 2-1/2,
maybe a little bit more --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On both lots?
MRS. HIGGINS: -- with the two lots
combined. Yeah, both lots combined.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just wasn't
too sure and when you read the tax map it's
not really, you know, you don't know if those
are the correct figures.
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah, you know, and again
I know -- I believe the minimum lot size in
this area is an acre. I mean for there to be
two houses on one property that's less than
two acres, I think is unfortunate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
Thank you. Anybody
This is my case to
write.
Higgins, your property is 2-1/2 acres.
two properties.
MRS. HIGGINS:
MEMBER SIMON:
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A couple of questions, first to Mrs.
It's
Yes.
How many houses are on
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
there now?
MRS. HIGGINS: Currently there's one
house on the street-side lot.
MEMBER SIMON: And you -- could you build
legally a house on the other lot, if you
wanted to?
MRS. HIGGINS: Yes, we could.
MEMBER SIMON: But the difference is
those are two recognized lots where this is
only one recognized lot.
MRS. HIGGINS:
MEMBER SIMON:
for the attorney.
sorry?
Yes.
Okay. Okay, now questions
What's your name, I'm
MR. GROSS: Sorry, Amiel Gross. A-M-I-E-
Gross.
MEMBER SIMON: It seems that the -- I'm
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concerned about the precedent, too, and I'm
also concerned -- was concerned last hearing
since you read the transcript, about the
possible -- the floodgate argument and it is
important, I'm convinced by reading Dawson
case and also reading the remarks in the
transcript and hearing Mr. Yakaboski, is that
the issue is primarily if the issue is it a
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building or is it structure or is it a use and
nonconforming structure; it seems that it is a
nonconforming building and structure in which
case the Board will have to consider whether
to go with Dawson, basically, or to go with
our Building Inspector with regard to point
number one in that argument, but much of your
argument is based on assuming that even if it
is considered a structure and not a use
there's the question of what kinds of things
are going to be allowed on this.
Now, it's my understanding is that the
only -- am I correct in thinking that this, if
this is a precedent, it would not be a
precedent in a sense of changing the law
arguably, because this particular possibility
of converting a legal nonconforming structure,
which happens to already be a second home,
would apply only to those places which were
legal as opposed to places which were built
illegally as people sort of surreptitiously
put up apartments in their garage and then
they claimed the right to then convert it to
a house. $o I don't know how many such places
there are in the Town, but if it is it might
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be making a case which has not been made
before and it could have affect, but only as
an example rather than as a legal precedent.
You understand what I'm saying?
MR. GROSS: Yes, I do. My understanding
and I have no personal knowledge of this, but
in reading the transcript from last hearing a
comment was made that there are a lot of these
nonconforming structures or uses on lots
throughout the town. In other words, you have
a lot where you can only have one residence
and you have two nonconforming. So it would
apply to all of those --
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. GROSS: --
MEMBER SIMON:
What's --
I would argue.
Well first of all,
some of
those remarks that you read on the transcript
were mine and I reviewed them. That is to say
it's not just any old nonconforming structure,
but one which is a legal, but nonconforming,
second residence and that's a lot smaller and
I don't know how many there are; however, even
if that distinction is made and there are
other people in the town who are in a similar
situation to this is -- that's a case that
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would come before us anyway just like this
case because this -- whether -- regardless of
the way this one is decided cause it doesn't
need this case as a precedent in order to make
the same argument that Mr. Yakaboski has made.
MR. GROSS: Agreed.
MEMBER SIMON: So I'm not sure how that
plays out.
MR. GROSS: Well, if the Board were to
rule a certain way, they would come in using
that precedent as support for their
application.
MEMBER SIMON: But if they came in the
other way they'd still come in.
MR. GROSS: Well, they could but then
this would be negative precedent and then --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so now am I right in
thinking that would be it cause it would be,
therefore, in setting a negative precedent,
which if it's a sound precedent that it would
be upheld in the law. If it were a negative
precedent, which could then be reversed on
appeal, then, of course, it wouldn't be a
negative precedent at all. It could be at
worst a mistake on the part of the Board. So
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we have to look at it very closely.
MR. GROSS: Agreed with everything you
say. The concern is, you know, negative
precedent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Can I focus, maybe?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, please.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The presentation on
what I'm most concerned with, you know, I said
a lot of things on the record last time.
That's not what I like to do, but my view, and
it's not binding on this Board, but it's my
advice to this Board, is that a second home on
a property such as this is that does have some
legal sanction such as a CO is a nonconforming
structure as opposed to a nonconforming use.
Now, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you
want with it. That means it has a right to be
there, it is not an illegal use. It is a
residential district, it is a residential use,
but it is my view that if you want to increase
it in size and that includes going up and I
agree with counsel that the Walz decision does
apply here, that you need a variance, because
our Code strictly does not allow you to
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increase the degree of nonconformance without
a variance, which is why I think we're here or
should be here.
So the debate then or the presentations
then I think should focus on the nature and
scope of the increase in mass of the home. It
is relevant that it's preexisting nature is as
an accessory dwelling. I think the seasonal
issue is a little bit of a red herring, it's
not something that we really focus on in our
Building Department and here as to whether
something is seasonal or not. I think they
could probably upgrade from seasonal to year
round without any administerial application to
the Building Department to add heat.
So I think we should talk about how big
the structure is now, how it relates to the
size of the other structure, how big it's
proposed to be and why and what the rest of
the neighborhood looks like and I have one
How close is this to Kimodenor
question.
Point?
MR.
YAKABOSKI: Reading your mind last
week, I ordered an aerial photograph.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
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MR. YAKABOSKI: (Inaudible). The nearest
dwelling on Kimodenor, let me see one of these
is one inch equals 80 feet and one inch equals
55 feet. This is one inch equals 55 feet and
this is one inch equals 80 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: See that after
counsel looks at it?
MR. YAKABOSKI: Sure.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: K-I-M, this is
going to be close, K-I-M-O --
MEMBER SIMON: D-E-N-O-R.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The reason I raised
Kimodenor Point because it's a unique piece of
property in this town in that it is one lot
with numerous homes on it and several of those
homes have come before this Board to enlarge,
to be enlarged and I think certain of them
have been granted variances to do that.
BOARD ASST.: We have two different
conversations going on here and I'm not sure
if some of this should be going on the record
or not, but --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So now that
property is somewhat different in that the
individual dwellings are all not accessory to
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
each other on that lot, but they have been
granted variance to increase their size and to
grow over time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just say
something, counsel? This is a lot to take in
this one hearing. What I would like to see
and I know this is a little -- asking a little
from Mr. Yakaboski, is his overall opinion
regarding the transcript that we just
received, okay.
MR. YAKABOSKI:
record from --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. YAKABOSKI: Okay,
I have not, you mean the
From --
I have not read the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not the transcript,
the submission from counsel.
MR. YAKABOSKI: (Inaudible) --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes and I would
like to see you do that in two ways, one in
writing if you could before us and then I
would like you to comment on his, okay, in
writing and if you gentleman still think we
need a final hearing on that basis I would
like -- you know, we'll hold a final hearing,
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
but I would like you to at least go back and
forth once on this rather than taking it all
on the record at the same time. I have to
tell you that Dawson was a voluminous record
most of which could have been done in this
manner, okay, that was the Nassau Point
situation with Steve Angel, which was the
nature of a seasonal dwelling. I'll give you
my opinion on seasonal dwellings after 28
years on the Board, and that's it, okay,
regardless of what counsel has to say. I'm
not taking that away from you, counsel, by the
way. I do agree with you on what you said
regarding the word seasonal, but that's it.
That's what I would like and I don't mean --
you know, I think we've, you know, I think
we're at this particular point where opposing
counsel needs to discuss what you submitted
today and then we'll go back and we'll give
you some time to do that back and forth at
which time you'll submit it to each other and
to the Board at the same time so that we can
review it and we will be better prepared, if
you so think we need a final hearing.
I think we do because my question to you
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is going to be this is a democratic Board,
you've heard this statement before, we need
three votes and if you want to consider
alternate relief that may be one of the things
you might want to consider.
BOARD ASST.: Based on the volume.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Based on the
volume, okay.
MR. YAKABOSKI: I'll leave those for the
record.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
objection to my doing it this way?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't. You
should run the meeting however you see most
expedient.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody else
have an objection?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I would say if
counsel has anything further they want to say
today you should probably allow it.
MR. YAKABOSKI: The only other thing I
would say is this relating to Kimodenor Point,
I did get a call from Mr. Archer who is the
president of the association (inaudible) he
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
indicated they had no objection to the
proposed plan of Ms. Polites.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What you may or may
not be aware of we are asking Kimodenor Point
to give us every time an application comes in
cause it comes in actually either from the
applicant or from the corporation itself,
alright, because they --
MR. YAKABOSKI: When they renovate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When they renovate.
A lot coverage, an ongoing lot coverage
figure, okay, of what they estimate on upland
land so that we know and can keep a running
balance on that.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Of course, we don't have
any issues here on lot coverage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, that's not
the point, but I'm just telling you where we
are with Kimodenor.
BOARD ASST.: We're talking about volume
of the footprint.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Volume of footprint
as it deals with all of the --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I don't mean to
suggest that whatever goes on Kimodenor Point
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
both new owners and that's
tell
goes outside, cause it is unique, but it also
is relevant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm only telling
counsel that because I thought it was a good
point. We came to a threshold and we said
that's what we need, okay.
BOARD ASST.: If you would like a copy of
the transcript we just got it yesterday and
you can have that.
MR. GROSS: I thank the Board Members on
behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Higgins.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Thank you for continuing
past your normal break time. I appreciate it
greatly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I do want to say
this in all true feeling that I actually
congratulate owners of both pieces of property
and I sincerely hope that we can work this
out. Okay?
MR. GROSS: Very well, thank you.
Cause I know you're
the situation and
Patrick I said hello.
MRS. HIGGINS: I will.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. HIGGINS: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On that note, I
will make a motion recessing the hearing
without a date and allowing counsel to discuss
their individual views based on the
submissions from Mr. Gross today. I would
expect that they could do that within a four
to six week period and get back to us for a
specific final hearing date, probably I would
love to say June. Okay, if we could do that?
MR. YAKABOSKI: Very well.
BOARD ASST.: We would need to know if
three to four weeks if it's June cause we
would need to readvertise it again.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Understood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
MR. YAKABOSKI: Thank you. Good day.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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177
ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
HEARING #6121 - Kurt Freundenberg
and Janet Latham
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This hearing was
held on 2/28/08.
to be heard?
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
were.
pool,
Who's here that would like
Mr. Freundenberg is here.
We'll resume where we
MR. FREUNDENBERG: Right, no swimming
just the shed that exists there.
Yes. I'm sorry, my name is Kurt
Freundenberg.
There was a shed there.
was built the shed was built.
When the house
I was going to
put a pool in, but I decided not to put the
pool in. When I was putting in the pool
application, Pat Moore indicated that the shed
needed a variance. So I said okay, let's get
the variance or let's apply for the variance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FREUNDENBERG: So now that I'm not
going to get the pool, I think I should
follow-through and get the variance for the
shed that's there.
BOARD ASST.: So you're officially
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
withdrawing the pool from the application?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: Yes, I am.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, the shed
is how large?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: It's 8 by 12 and it
matches the house, custom made to match the
house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. It's
present location is where it's depicted on the
survey?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: If you're facing the
property it's on the right hand side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It shows it's 31.81
feet from the front property line or fence and
it's 4.2 feet from the easterly property line.
MR. FREUNDENBERG: That's right. It was
situated there because of the geography of the
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Is there
any electricity in there, sir?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: There is an electric
line running to a light.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there any
plumbing?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: No.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: The distance from the shed
to the front property line, is that greater or
less than that of the house?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: Um --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The house is 23.9.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's set back further
than the front of the house?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So clearly it's in side
yard not front yard.
MR. FREUNDENBERG: It's in the side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Primarily side
yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Totally side yard.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. One of the
questions that were asked in the application
will be is there any other possible place on
the property for the shed?
MR. FREUNDENBERG: No, because of the way
the property slopes down. If you go down to
the back where I'd love to put it, it's a non-
disturbance zone.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. I don't have any
further questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: No questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we thank you.
Anybody else like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
HEARING #6127 -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to tell us where you are?
the record.
MR. LEHNERT:
Paul and Maureen Cacioppo
Rob would you like
State your name for
Rob Lehnert. I have
another letter from adjacent neighbor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MR. LEHNERT: Okay, since the last time
we've been here, you've received revised
plans. The pool has now shrunk to a 15 by 25
size. You can see in the plans that there's
going to be fencing, wood fencing put up along
the rear of the lot and the side of the lot to
-- along with planting to block any of the
noise from the pool machinery. The pool
machinery was pulled -- if you look at it, it
is to the northeast corner of the lot. It's
the farthest away we could take it from the
adjacent neighbor at the rear. The adjacent
neighbor at the side of the property, the east
side, is a couple of hundred feet away. So we
feel that's the best place for the machinery
to make the least amount of noise (inaudible)
the neighbors. I've also showed a chain link
fence on the plan that we're going to need per
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New York State Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We've been asking
everybody and you may have heard it throughout
the hearings that that -- when we refer to the
machinery, we're referring mainly to the pump.
MR. LEHNERT: It's the pump and the
heater.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The heater really
makes no noise.
MR. LEHNERT: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the pump that
needs to be placed in a relatively soundproof
shed, compartment. When I say shed, I mean 3
by 4, I'm not referring to --
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, assuming the
Board is so inclined to grant this variance.
MR. LEHNERT: Okay, I would also -- the
Board already has copies, I believe, of the
four letters from some of the adjacent
homeowners stating that they're for the pool
application and again today we have one from
Mr. Ricaboni (sic) another resident of Jackson
Street, for the application.
I would also like to speak to the letter
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
of Mr. Ravenack (sic), who is the neighbor to
the rear of the property and just pretty much
dispute some of the things he has to say. One
of the things he mentions here is the safety
and the fencing for his grandchildren. As you
know, we have fencing, and for any pool New
York State Code requires us to have fence to
comply with the Code and we're going to have
that. He also has a question about the water.
We submitted a letter since the past hearing
to state that the water is going to be brought
in from an outside source.
property is not on a well,
connected to public water.
The current
it's currently now
So we're not
drawing any well water and the pool will be
filled from an outside contractor. That's the
changes we've got.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have seen both
one dated February 14tn, from Mr.
letters,
Tohill?
MR.
LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And --
MR. LEHNERT: I have the original letter
from the first hearing, I haven't received
anything else.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
BOARD ASST.:
were three letters
MR. LEHNERT:
hearing.
BOARD ASST.: Well, the
Tohill is the first letter.
MR. LEHNERT:
BOARD ASST.:
Jacobs, from Mr.
Yeah, that's it. There
in opposition.
The first for the first
one from Mr.
Um-hmm.
And the second letter from
Jacobs. The second hearing
from Mr.
third letter is
(sic) .
MR. LEHNERT:
BOARD ASST.:
Gates and Ms. Jacobs and then the
from Mr. and Mrs. Ravenack
Yes.
Okay,
thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else you'd
like to add?
MR. LEHNERT: That's it, at this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else like
to speak? Anybody have questions?
MEMBER OLIVA: The pool is not that large
and as long as you have good screening there
plus the fence, (inaudible) fence.
MR. LEHNERT: If you've been to the lot
there's a 6-foot wood fence in the rear of the
lot. We're proposing to bring it up to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
side and again there's going to be chain link
fencing around the rest of the pool.
MEMBER SIMON:
at this point?
MR. LEHNERT:
point has gone down. We've brought
22.1 percent from the 23 we had the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, let's see
what develops throughout the hearing.
Anybody like to speak for or against
application?
You need to use the mike, sir,
name.
to
What is the lot coverage
The lot coverage at this
it down to
last time.
this
state your
MR. GATES: My name is Clayton Gates.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. GATES: I'm the owner of 645 Jackson
the west of the property under discussion.
I'm very glad that the water issues have
been cleared up. We are on a well, so we
definitely have concerns about the water
coming from the well to supply the pool and
also about the chemicals that might, you know,
leach into the ground from the pool itself,
but it still leaves a big concern. These are
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
very small lots where this
occurring.
properties,
east side,
186
close together. The houses are very close to
each other and we're very concerned about the
noise that's going to come from this pool.
They did put up a fence, but you know that's
not going to stop much noise and this pool is,
you know, just a few feet from our property
line and this could be a very, you know,
changing nature to our very quiet neighborhood
and we're very concerned about that. We --
it's -- the neighbor to the back, you know, is
just a few feet from their back yard and this
is something that we're all going to have to
deal with, if this goes through.
I'm disappointed to hear that they're
already, they're pushing even further past the
variance on the property lot coverage.
There's a lot of building on that very small
lot and I just want you, I'm sure you all will
consider that very carefully, but we're all
going to live with the noise more than we'd
like in New Suffolk, which is a very quiet
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development is
There are basically four
in addition to Mr. Tohill's on the
but there are lots that are very
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place.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is the anybody else would like to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion -- Go
ahead.
MR.
like to
Gates.
LEHNERT: One more thing, I'd just
speak on some of the comments from Mr.
The distance from the property line,
the pool is really nowhere near on top of this
property line. It's approximately 50 feet
from this property line. Between his property
line and the proposed pool there's an
accessory cottage. The building on the lot,
you guys know the history of this whole thing,
we have an -- we had an approval for a much
larger building, which we chose not to build.
So we're basically asking for the coverage we
had on a two-story building last time to be
put towards the pool. I don't think that's a
big deal for the lot.
As for the small lots, you know, there
are small lots, there are large lots all along
Jackson Street and everyone knows that area
there are big houses down there and one of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
letters that we received from -- for the pool,
actually, is from the neighbor directly behind
us who would be most affected and he has no
problem with the pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Hearing no further comment -- yes, sorry.
MS. JACOBS: I'm Jennifer Jacobs. I'm
Clayton's wife who just had spoken. I just
wanted to -- I know that on the plans that we
saw it showed that we have Town water and I
just wanted to make it very clear to everybody
that we do have a well. I know Clayton
mentioned that, but I just wanted it to be
really clear.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Appreciate it.
Yes, sir.
record.
MR. GLEIS:
Please state your name for the
Sure. My name is Tom Gleis
and I live in New Suffolk and on the subject
of this house my comments are non-technical.
It's more cosmetic. My wife and I walk that
neighborhood all the time. Jackson Avenue is
a gorgeous street and I think the house that's
there is absolutely beautiful, it fits in with
the character of the neighborhood. It looks
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beautiful and it hasn't even been landscaped
yet. So I think that that and also in light
of the fact that it's fenced-off and also
heavily shrubbed around so that visually
there's no real impact by the swimming pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Again, hearing no further comments, I'll
make a motion closing the hearing, reserving
decision until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
HEARING #6131 - Greg and Karmen Dadourian
BOARD ASST.: There's no representative
here, the attorney could not be present. If
there was any additional testimony, she would
ask for an adjournment so she could reply to
the testimony.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're continuing
this is to Mr. and Mrs. -- you're continuing
your opposition regarding this swimming pool?
MR. DEMETRIADES: Yes.
MS. DEMETRIADES: Yes, we are.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything
you'd like to add to it?
MS. DEMETRIADES: Well, our concern is,
again, the location and we feel that the pool
(inaudible) that's not enough. Now our
concern is the location of the pool like last
time and also our concern is our water pump is
very close to their water pump, the proposed
water pump or whatever if it's there. That
would make a lot of noise. What about the
quality of my water? Maybe that would be
affected because they're very, very close.
Not even 10 feet away from one another.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Health
Department usually makes that any
consideration. So you can certainly call them
regarding that. That's the best I can do for
that cause we really don't deal with that
aspect of it in this hearing.
MS. DEMETRIADES: Okay, but there still
is the noise that the -- well they say they
would put some kind of shrubbery around, but I
don't think that would help at all. And still
the location they say, in the letter that
Patricia sent she said, that they have 45 feet
away, but they using my feet, my 45 feet, not
the 15 feet which would make this wide. So
they cannot use that. They cannot use my
property line to make the point that they have
my house away from there, where they --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, they can use
it, but --
MS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible) point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why I asked
you the question in the beginning.
MS. DEMETRIADES: Okay, I'm opposed to
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
that. What they are using, but I'm opposed to
it, too. We are opposing still the location
of the pool, it should not be there. Like I
said, they have not done any changes at all.
All they did is put some shrubbery, that's
all. The location is still there and the pool
is tremendous and everything and that's our
concern.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. You are
still with the concept that you would rather
see the pool on the water side?
MS. DEMETRIADES: Absolutely, absolutely.
Also they have the house, it's a big house.
They have the deck there, you know, they have
to do something. They just cannot have
everything, you know, whatever they want.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Ms. Demetriades, when you
had called me and asked me questions we were
talking about moving it closer to the road.
MS. DEMETRIADES: Well, yeah, up front.
If -- but they haven't done anything around
that.
BOARD ASST.: That's what I'm asking you.
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What is it that you're (inaudible)?
MS. DEMETRIADES: First, I would like to
see the pool in back of the house (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Right. And second?
MS. DEMETRIADES: The second, probably
very close to the street so it would be away
really from my house and all the noise. There
will be a lot of noise, there will be a lot of
(inaudible) and things like that. Like I
said, you know, nice and quiet we have there
for so many years. Now all of a sudden we're
going to have all this -- whatever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, yes ma'am.
Could you use the mike?
MS. DROEGE: I would like to speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me?
MS. DROEGE: I would like to speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, you're welcome
to. Would you come up and use the mike?
MS. DROEGE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last gentleman
was there raised that mike up pretty
I don't know if you have to pull it down
that
high,
or ---
MS. DROEGE: Okay, let's see. Okay,
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
that's not bad. Okay.
I'm going to read my letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's actually the
best we've had all day.
BOARD ASST.: Would you tell us your
name, please?
MS. DROEGE: My name is Madeline Droege,
D-R-O-E-G-E. I'm the neighbor to the east and
even though the pool is not going outside my
kitchen window I would like to say I believe
the person who purchased this lot is very
rude. I don't think it is possible that
someone would invest in a lot with the purpose
of building a house with a pool without
checking first to see if they could. To ask
for a variance is rude to everyone not just
the neighbors.
The Code was created to make everyone
equal. No one is allowed a pool on the side
of their house in the setback area. It would
be house pool, house pool, house pool. All
lined up next to each other with everyone
looking out their kitchen window at all the
naked people drinking and making noise. How
rude of Karmen to suggest that a few trees as
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
a screening device would make it okay for her,
but for no one else, to install this pool.
Also, what about the noise? I don't
drink alcohol, but the rest of the world does.
That's when everyone lets loose and gets loud
with the only option to call the police and
report a noise problem and I don't feel that
we should be subjected to that because there
is no other remedy once the pool is in. You
can't tell someone, oh, you can have the pool
but you can't like get rowdy. You can't do
that. $o once the pool is in they could do
whatever they want.
The pool will devalue the neighbor, the
neighborhood and the resale values. Why
should the neighborhood suffer for her, I
want, I want, I want? She comes from an
overcrowded neighborhood perhaps and would
like to make this neighborhood an overcrowded
neighborhood, too.
Also I asked for two variances and was
denied both times. I wanted a Titanium
personal windmill no louder than a flag
waving, and there were many flagpoles
installed in my neighborhood, one across the
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street from me, for my personal use installed
on my property. I should have been granted a
variance because it is my human right to
harvest whatever natural elements are
available to me, earth, wind, sun, water and
it's supporting the environment. Why can a
large corporation gain support for windmills
for industrial use, industrial profit,
industrial control while the homeowner is
marginalized and can't get any?
I also asked for a variance for a small
balcony in front of my house which faces
south, on the second floor, to allow me to
stand in the sun during the winter. I was
also denied this variance. If Karmen gets a
variance for this pool then I'm going to
resubmit for my variances and if I don't get
approval I would like to know why.
The neighbor next to Karmen on the other
side of the easement installed a pool in the
front of their house. This is the only
solution that I think would be appropriate
because if the pool in front of the house it's
not in our view in the back of the house where
everyone enjoys the ocean. It's in the front
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
of the house, let her sacrifice. She came
into this neighborhood it was already the way
it is and she wants to make it like Queens. We
don't have pools on the side of our house in
this area. Why would she? And if she does,
then everybody will use her as an example to
get a pool on the side of their house, which
is ridiculous. And why should these people,
any neighbor suffer devaluation of our
property?
If I drove into an area and I saw a pool
on -- it's absolutely rude to have a pool on
the side of your house and I drove into an
area such as ours where everything is done
with great care and concern by everyone in the
neighborhood and I saw a pool on the side of
someone's house with people drinking and
carousing, I would get turned off and I might
not want to go in that neighborhood and that's
basically what she's saying. She's saying I
don't want to make my house smaller, oh no, I
want my big house. I also want my view of the
ocean, no I can't put my big pool there. Oh,
I didn't do my homework, I didn't do my
research. So I guess we all have to now
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suffer because she decides, after the fact, to
put a pool right in our face. It doesn't --
it's not right at all and I think she knows
what she's doing and I don't know why she
thinks she's going to get a variance.
Now the people next to the easement do
have a pool in the front of their house and I
would say because of that and not having any
problem with that, I would suggest she does
it, but she's not going to want to do that
because that would bother her. So it's okay
to bother us, but it's not okay to bother her
and so why don't you make your house smaller?
Why don't you move your house around? Why
don't you put the pool in front where it's not
going to bug anybody? She's the one who has
to make the compromise not us.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Anybody else like to speak?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing --
BOARD ASST.: It's adjourning. She did
ask for the adjournment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's right.
I apologize, yes. Adjourning.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
So you're revising your
BOARD ASST.:
motion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, I'm revising
my motion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to adjourn -
- adjourn to another date or just --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have to adjourn
to June, we're booked up --
BOARD ASST.: Booked up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- with May, so we
adjourn to June.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We could close the
hearing subject to (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: I would ask the attorney
inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the
Interesting part about it is we have a member
of the Board that is still waiting for Soil
and Water Conservation on the water side. In
other words, considerations from Soil and
Water evaluations for the bluff area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have Soil and Water.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, it's only for upland.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's upland
basically.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
BOARD ASST.: Property near here?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, this piece.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's not what I wanted.
I have a problem on those
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
(inaudible).
(inaudible).
She wants
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well then subject
to that then I'll agree with your adjournment
pending receipt of Soil and Water additional
information and final request of the
applicant's attorney.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Did you get that? Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll make that a motion.
Well, you make the motion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is everybody aware
of what we're adjourning to? We're
adjourning, we are still waiting for Soil and
Water Conservation, which is a Suffolk County
organization, which gives us an evaluation of
the property. Alright, they gave us an
evaluation of the upland area, we want
comments from them regarding the area that is
on the slope, alright, the slope going down
and we would like to be able to give that to
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
the applicants in hopes that they will work on
that bluff, okay, based on the entire
construction that they are proposing and in
particular, at this particular time we're
really concerned about the house, too.
MEMBER SIMON: Question. Will that have
any bearing on the question of whether the
pool might be located on the Sound side of the
house?
MEMBER OLIVA: I assume if they wanted to
put the pool in the back of the house, they're
going to have to come in for another variance
cause it's going to be less than 100 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not sure what you
(inaudible) that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Road and water.
MEMBER OLIVA: Water side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which?
MEMBER SIMON: Which is which?
BOARD ASST.: Which is back?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Waterside.
MEMBER OLIVA: Waterside.
MEMBER SIMON: Did I understand the
speakers that that was the side that they
would prefer to have the pool?
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MS. DROEGE: I think road side.
MEMBER SIMON: What?
BOARD ASST.: Technically, it's the road
side on the zoning.
MS. DROEGE: Technically, the Town Code
if you're on the water some people call it the
(inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: It could be both. Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I have done in
the past with past Boards is we have
recommended a renurturing of the bluff.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then we have
asked the applicant to come back after the
bluff has been renurtured to discuss the
possibility of building a house in a location
other than what they are proposing at this
time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the 100 foot --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would be within
100 feet, but now we have what we construe to
be a stable bluff.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, which we
don't know if it's stable or unstable because
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
we are not necessarily experts on this. We're
asking Soil and Water to tell us if it's
stable or unstable and that's the reason why
we're sending it back for their opinion
regarding the stability of the bluff.
MEMBER SIMON: And we cannot decide on
the pool question until we know about the
bluff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct. I
mean any change of the pool at this time.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which the neighbors
have asked us to take into consideration. How
does that sound, Counsel?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's hard for me to
follow, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's hard for me to
say.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think you're
adjourning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, we're adjourning
subject to receipt --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That sounds fine.
May I ask is there a permit or variance
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
already existing on the home or the proposed
home?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is we suggest to them --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) side yard
variances --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- that they take
the comments as a courtesy to work on the
bluff so to speak. Okay.
relatively shallow bluff.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
What we usually do
variance needed on the home? Is that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. They're 100 foot
back. The front yard setback needs a
variance.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The front yard
setback needs a variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) 40 and it's
30 feet.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The roadside requires a
variance and the second variance would be in
the side yard (inaudible).
PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscri~ionSe~ice
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This is a
Okay, so there's no
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you
it's been one that we have seen -- not seen in
a long time where they actually have a
conforming setback to the top of the bluff.
Again, a shallow bluff.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, uneven.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, ma'am.
MS. DROEGE: May I ask --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to come to
the mike.
MS. DROEGE: May I ask if we will be
notified by registered mail,
don't know if we're calling
was not notified properly.
because this
it a hearing, I
First they sent
-- I
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it, my letter to the wrong address and I got
it late. I really think I should have gotten
a certified announcement of this hearing that
included the time. So I had to make a trip
over here to find out what time it was today.
The letter that I received, which was a copy
of a letter to you, did not state the time.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I'd like to respond
to that. The Town Code requires certified
mail notice for the first hearing as well as
the posting of the sign and the legal notice
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206
ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
in the official newspaper of the town. When
the hearing is adjourned by the Board with a
date and time, I believe you may have even
been present at that first hearing when the
Board adopted that resolution, it is not re-
sent out for certified mailing, but it would
be in the record. You're welcome to call our
office at any time knowing that it's been
adjourned and we could tell you the time and
place.
MS. DROEGE:
BOARD ASST.:
MS. DROEGE:
nOW?
Is no letter sent out then?
No.
Do I find out the date here,
BOARD ASST.: Not additional letters and
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We haven't decided
if we're going to set a date at this
particular point. We have two options, we can
adjourn it without a date and then once the
actual hearing has been reduced to writing we
then give that document to the attorney who is
not present today. She is presently out of
state to my knowledge.
Now, in this particular case, I would
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207
ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
like to propose that we set it for the June
meeting so that we have it so then we can tell
you right now, approximately right now, and
the June hearing. What is the June calendar?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's also
advertised in the Suffolk Times prior to the -
MS. DROEGE: I don't get that, but I
would like to take your number and the name of
the person to call if you don't give out that
date. 765-18007
MEMBER OLIVA: No, 1809.
MS. DROEGE: And I ask for any of you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Ask for Linda.
BOARD ASST.: I would recommend though
that you adjourn it without a date so that the
new mailing can be sent out again.
MS. DROEGE: If I get the mail. She sent
it to the wrong address.
BOARD ASST.: Well, it's sent to the
address that you have registered on the Town's
property system. So if you want to --
MS. DROEGE: I think it was a type-o
cause I do get my tax bill.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
BOARD ASST.: Well, give it to us now.
MS. DROEGE: Well, I have a mailing
address of PO Box 162, Orient, New York 11957
and that would be M. D-R-O-E-G-E.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're getting your
mail properly?
MS. DEMETRIADES: In New Jersey. It's
okay.
BOARD ASST.: Well, you could call our
office at any time. Don't just wait, call us,
please.
MS. DEMETRIADES: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER.: Okay, let me go
back and if you want to adjourn it then
without a date so we know that she will have
to resubmit letters to the surrounding and
adjacent neighbors?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I have no problem
with that if, in fact, we're waiting for Soil
and Water to come, it's the applicant's
attorney's request that we're not closing this
hearing, then we may as well adjourn it
without a date.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good. Okay. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
then I'll make the motion to adjourn this
hearing without a date waiting for the
attorney to receive a copy of the transcript
of this particular hearing and then informing
us when she is ready and able to send out new
letters to the surrounding or adjacent
property owners.
BOARD ASST.: And Soil and Water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the Soil and
Water report.
What?
MS. DEMETRIADES: And hopefully with a
new proposal, with new --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, my discussion
was the same before and that is and it really
wasn't far from you it was from Grandview,
believe it or not, and that was to build the
house, renurture the bluff, and then come back
to us regarding the pool application. So that
then we knew that the bluff was stable enough
to do what they had to do and that was it.
BOARD ASST.: I have a question of Ms.
Droege. There's proof in the file that the
mailings were sent to PO Box 162, Orient as it
has you as a Corporation, Oak Beach
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210
ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
MS. DROEGE:
BOARD ASST.:
MS. DROEGE:
phone number.
Corporation.
MS. DROEGE: Yeah and I do receive mail,
but this is to 695 Teddys Drive.
BOARD ASST.: In the file it shows they
did mail it to your correct address. Just so
you know, that's what we would have them mail
it to the PO Box number.
MS. DROEGE: Okay, that was the property
out there.
How many weeks notice do we get?
BOARD ASST.: Well, you could also call
our office and you would also get notice at
least 7 days prior to the hearing.
At least 7 days, okay.
7 days or more.
I'm just going to write the
BOARD ASST.: Sometimes you get a lot
more, but the Code says 7 days prior.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I will
offer a resolution again, based upon those two
things that we're looking for and do you want
me to reiterate those again?
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we are
recessing it without a date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - April 24, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
April 13, 2009
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