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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-03/19/2009 Hearing1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Southold Town Hall Southold, New York March 19, 2009 9:30 a.m. Board Members Present: GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member RUTH OLIVA - Member MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member KEN SCHNEIDER - Member LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney 01 ,, INAL Pugliese Eourt Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 Hearing: Mensch, INDEX OF HEARINGS LLC & North Fork Self Storage#6259 Page: 3-11 Steven and Christine Garms %6260 12-24 James and Denise Martin #6262 25-32 E. Marelic #6255 33-46 Frank Zagarino Trust #6257 47-74 Brian Frawley %6261 75-85 Frank and Diane Palillo #6263 86-98 Mary E. Manning %6265 99-104 Peter and G. Schembri #6256 #6276 amended 105-135 Highland House FI, LLC #6253 136-151 Paul Katz %6258 152-158 Kevin B and J. Faga #6281 amended %6243 159-172 Romanelli Realty, Inc. #6224 and #6100 173-262 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: order. Motion? BOARD MEMBER: So moved. BOARD MEMBER: Second. Call meeting to HEARING %6259 - M. Mensch, LLC and North Fork Self Storage CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request for a Variances, based on the Building Inspector's November 25, 2008 Notice of Disapproval, which states that a proposed public self-storage building with an Apartment is not permitted, for the following reasons: (1) under Section 280-64C, no single structure shall have more than 60 linear feet of frontage on one street and the building will exceed this frontage along Depot Lane, and further; (2) under Section 280-62C Accessory Uses, an Apartment is not a permitted accessory use. Location of Property: 115 Commerce Drive, Cutchogue; CTM 96-1-1.2." Marty, do you want to come up? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: come? MR. KOSMYNKA: Marty, do you want to Marty Kosmynka, I'm the applicant. I'm the owner of the North Fork Self Storage. I'm in contract to purchased this from John Men$ch. I'm here in front of you for two reasons. One is I need a variance for the rear of my building at 75 feet. I believe the Code states 60 feet. The mere shape of the way this particular building envelope is planned it's like a cone. The front of my building, which will face Commerce Drive, is 30 feet in width and the rear is 75. It's like a one of these things. I will not have any direct access from Depot Lane to the rear of my property. It's pretty well buffered pretty nicely over there and I did try to -- if you see the rear of the building, I kind of, you know, jig-sawed the back of the building. So, you know, I tried to go 20 feet from this property and 10 feet to break it up so you wouldn't see this massive wall behind Depot Lane. So that's what I've done with that one. I mean, the (inaudible) is really paramount to my business. I sell security and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 since 911 people have gotten even more intense to have security at these storage facilities and it's just part of the business profile. I'm here to answer any questions you have. MEMBER OLIVA: How many square feet is that apartment? MR. KOSMYNKA: About 1000 and change. MEMBER OLIVA: That's what I -- about 1000. It has two bedrooms. MR. KOSMYNKA: Yeah, it's two bedrooms with a study. You know, computer room, whatever you can call it. The Health Department says it's a three bedroom, but it's fine. By the way, the Health Department is being granted as we speak. They don't appear to have any problems with it. I don't have any heavy uses or any big sanitary flow here and the building will be sprinkled, by the way. I've also been in front of the Architectural Review Board. I did not get their comments back, but I don't believe there's any real resistance to this. MEMBER OLIVA: Is it going to be the same architecture as the other storage? Pug[iese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. KOSMYNKA: It is. We've been very -- I've been very sensitive to keeping that same type of feeling like with the -- MEMBER OLIVA: With the low lighting and everything at night? MR. KOSMYNKA: Yup, yup, yup. Yes, it's on the site plan. MEMBER OLIVA: And you'll have a good evergreen screening again? MR. KOSMYNKA: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. KOSMYNKA: Without a doubt. Along Depot Lane. Right, right. Well, actually Depot Lane is actually growing. I see we've got some nice trees growing on there. Henry Raynor planted them probably about 15-20 years ago and they're finally taking root. MEMBER OLIVA: And that was the old Montauk Bus? MR. KOSMYNKA: Yes. owner. He actually does John Mensch is the have site plan approval. He took ill and he decided to sell the property. They're using it until the end of this year and (inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: What's all that earthen Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 material over the fence there? Is that for the other -- MR. KOSMYNKA: Yeah, that's not me. That's the other -- I'm only the fenced-in area. That's my building envelope, that's -- MEMBER OLIVA: Okay. MR. KOSMYNKA: The drainage is actually in place (inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: I saw that. Is that one or two stories, the building? MR. KOSMYNKA: building. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. KOSMYNKA: It will be a two-story Two story. Other than this, there's no other requirements as far as parking. I did everything according to the (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, this is a honeycomb building similar to the other one that's heated or is this a open cold storage building? MR. KOSMYNKA: No, no. It's a -- it's similar to what the -- the second story is. The second floor will be climate control. The first story will be (inaudible) doors open up and (inaudible). Then there will be a slight PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 (inaudible) smaller units on the first floor, but basically climate controlled. A mixture of both, a mixture of both, but the same type of feel. It's a mansard roof with, you know, green (inaudible) in the same brown. I went to a class and they said my carbon footprint compared to the depot is a lot less. I don't know what that means. MEMBER WEISMAN: I can tell you. MEMBER OLIVA: Leslie is our architect. MEMBER WEISMAN: After, I'll tell you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If I could interrupt the hearing for a second, I forgot to introduce our new Assistant Town Attorney, Jennifer Andaloro here on my right, and Ken Schneider our new member, over to my left and your right. MEMBER OLIVA: Welcome to both of you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Welcome to both. MR. SCHNEIDER: MEMBER SIMON: the number of 1400 apartment. MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you. Okay, I thought I had seen square feet for the No, I don't think so. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you can't find Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 it now, you can supply us with that -- MR. KOSMYNKA: No -- MEMBER OLIVA: It's 1100 or 1200 square feet. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, here it's 1200. MR. KOSMYNKA: The watchman's quarters are the same footprint as the office, 1,128 square feet. MEMBER SIMON: Alright. So it's mistake. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's feet. MEMBER SIMON: MR. KOSMYNKA: plans naturally shows MEMBER SIMON: Is residence for the -- MR. KOSMYNKA: MEMBER SIMON: there? MR. KOSMYNKA: security. MEMBER SIMON: MR. KOSMYNKA: since which is 1100, like 1100 square Right. You can see the set of (inaudible). this essentially the (Inaudible). The watchman will live That's right. 24/7 Alright. And I have to tell you 911 they've actually come out with PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 recommendations for the storage industry. We kind of always did it, but now they really have come out with, you know, you have to be vigilant. This is what you have to do -- MEMBER SIMON: Just a point. Clearly we've already approved a watchman's quarters on the same section of land, the same portion of land. So consistency works in your favor, certainly. MR. KOSMYNKA: Thank you very much. MEMBER OLIVA: You have an elevator going up? MR. KOSMYNKA: I do. It's a regular people elevator. MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. Okay, I don't have any further questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you made a very compelling application. There are two precedents, both by this Board, that not only the first, as Michael said, that granted not only to you but 15 years ago to Jim Gray who's storage unit is over on Horton Lane with the condition that that apartment be occupied only by the security/watchman/manager. MR. KOSMYNKA: Right. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: I presume the same situation is acceptable. The other precedent is the interpretation for an application by Liv Sellers #4708, July '99 that ruled that where there are two street frontages, only one has to comply with the 60-foot or less Code requirement. So, again, I think you have, particularly with site plan approval and a big buffer along Depot Lane, a very compelling argument for simply granting the variances. It's certainly an appropriate -- it is the use in that area. There's no question that it certainly won't be any detriment to anything or anyone. So I don't really have any problems with it. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone else who would like to be heard on this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING #6260 Steven and Christine Garms MEMBER SCHNEIDER: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-15, based on the Building Inspector's November 24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed swimming pool in a side yard instead of the code-required rear yard, at 425 Rene Drive, Southold (Lot 3 on the 1978 Map of Gendron Minor Subdivision); CTM 54-6- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: your name for the record, Would you state please? MS. QUIGLEY: Good morning, I'm Kathy Quigley from Swim King Pools. MR. GARMS: And I'm Steve Garms. MS. QUIGLEY: We just request permission to put the in-ground pool in the side yard. The rear yard is only 20 feet deep and frankly just not wide enough for us. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No narrow lap pools in there. MS. QUIGLEY: Not a narrow lap pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: Put in a bowling alley. MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you for putting the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 pictures of the house. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, I think it's pretty straightforward. MEMBER OLIVA: We went up there, I hope that you improve that road a bit. MR. GARMS: Oh yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Please, but anyway, I think it's a good spot for it and the house looks lovely and I wish you lots of luck with it. MR. GARMS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No attempt to enclose this in any way? This will be an open pool meaning open to the sky. MR. GARMS: Yes. Yes. MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's virtually only in the best place available. It's on the flat part. It's open to the sky. The trees are cleared in that area, there's some screening already in place, you know, the time you would use it there's some deciduous trees and so on up there. I think there's only one neighbor who would be directly affected who's directly PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 opposite with your property on Rene Drive, but there's very large setback distances. It's not that they're close together in any way. I don't have any particular issues with it. BOARD ASST.: We want to be able to pick everyone up. Sometimes when the court reporter transcribes she's not able to pick up every word. I'm not hearing you well. I don't know if it's me or if it's the mike. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, the mike. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any -- you of course have to put a 4-foot fence around the periphery of the pool. Is there any landscaping you're anticipating around that fence at all? MR. GARMS: Probably not at this time. Like you said, I have a lot of screening and there's a lot of trees there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. GARMS: So I'll probably keep it with no additional landscaping. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Just stay there, we have a gentleman who wants to speak. Would you come up and use the mike, sir? MR. STUTTS: Sure. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very State your name for the record. MR. STUTTS: MR. GARMS: MR. STUTTS: the pool. Paul Stutts, I live -- Steven and his wife. First, wife jotted some stuff down mental capacity of flea. Morning Steve. Hey, how are you doing? Don't worry, I'm not against I'm a neighbor of I have some -- my cause I have the We've known them since they've been here what 7 or 8 years or something. MR. GARMS: Yeah, 5 years. MR. STUTTS: They're beautiful people, beautiful children. There are a few -- but we have no objection to the pool. As a matter of fact, Swim King did our pool in 1986 in our house in Sag Harbor. MS. QUIGLEY: Okay. MR. STUTT: It was beautiful. I don't want to get into that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You kind of have to make your statements to the Board. MR. STUTT: To the Board. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can pull that Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 mike up a little bit. MR. STUTT: Yeah. me. I think you can hear as you know, by us. is going to fix it, three-fold really. Now, one of our neighbors but our concerns are One is being blocked in. I live on the end of the road and we're worried about the trucks. First of all, the heavy trucks that are going to come in to do this, cause I know all about it, is -- we're worried about them blocking the road, but I'm sure they won't, I've never had a problem with that. But the tearing up of the road is what we're really concerned with, I don't know how it can get worse than what it is, but that's what we're really worried about. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 BOARD ASST.: Yes, you're fine. MR. STUTT: The issue that my wife and I are concerned with is, like Steve knows, the condition of the road is horrendous. MEMBER OLIVA: I agree. MR. STUTT: As a matter of fact, one of my grandchildren got a concussion coming up that road. You know, she came out of her car seat, hit her head on the roof. It's owned, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. GARMS: Yeah. No, I know. MR. STUTT: You know, cause the kids come once a week and it's a -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to make your comments to the Board. MR. STUTT: Do it to the Board. It's like an episode coming up that block and I'm concerned that it's going to be worse. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you a question? Did you ever ask the Building -- the Highway Superintendent anything about this? MR. STUTT: The Highway Superintendents know all about it. As a matter of fact, the neighbor that lives at the end of our block, I don't know his name -- MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) Schroeder. MR. STUTT: No, not Schroeder, the other side of the road. Schroeder is the one that's going to fix the road. MEMBER WEISMAN: side. MR. STUTT: Oh, Pederson is the other is that Pederson? As you know, he's he's had, he approached me, I'm sure approached Steve about drainage coming Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 down our road, crossing over the street and going down into his iow-level place. You know, I've had a lot of -- he seems to want to come to me all the time. MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you talking about the other side of Soundview? MR. STUTT: The other side of Soundview. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's (Inaudible). MR. STUTT: Well, whatever his name is, I don't know, but we've had problems with him. So that's one of our concerns, it's the road. I don't know, our neighbor is going to fix it, Schroeder, but in the being done, you know, it up that, you know, interim while this is to tear -- more tearing we're worried we might not even be able to get in there. it's like a mud pit. The other thing be drained because I You know, You know, it's horrible. is where the water would know from having a pool from Swim King that you have to backwash the pool and everything else so we're worried about that because any more water that comes into that road is going to cause a bigger mess. MEMBER OLIVA: Excuse me, but is that a PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingand/ranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 private road or is it -- MR. STUTT: It's a private road, yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Well, I suggest then when you can see the Town Attorney. Some places have formed an association that they pay off how much it would cost to bring the road up to specs, Town specs. MR. STUTT: Right. MEMBER OLIVA: Then you pay it off, you would have to pay it off in your taxes. Sometimes the Town will chip-in something, in these days I doubt it, but that's the only way, really you could do it. MR. STUTT: Right. MEMBER OLIVA: But they've done it up in Orient by the Sea cause there was one road that was just a mess of things, but they formed their own district and then had it appraised and had it brought up to Town specs. MR. STUTT: Right. MEMBER OLIVA: But that's the only way unless you have somebody there that's going to give you (inaudible). MR. STUTT: (Inaudible) is also on that block and he's in the business. He's going to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2O ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 -- I've fixed it myself, my sons are both in construction and we've fixed it, as Steve knows, multiple times. Tried to straighten it out, I've dropped in fill, concrete, everything. Nothing works, but Bobby said he was going to fix it after you're done. MR. GARMS: really quick? MR. STUTT: MR. GARMS: Can I comment on the road, Yeah, go ahead. I realize the concern of the road, it is a private road and my daughter is actually handicapped. We have the small bus come up the road everyday. MEMBER OLIVA: Right, right. MR. GARMS: So I do know the concern you brought up. We spoke with Bob in the fall to repair the road and I think once we get this done, maybe I'll have them drop some stone in that muddy spot and then once this is done we'll -- all the neighbors need to get together outside of, you know, as a -- MR. STUTT: Oh definitely. MEMBER OLIVA: You could do that and just all chip-in to keep it -- MR. STUTT: That's what we're going to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 do, all going to chip-in. MR. GARMS: I'll make sure that the road is -- as well as Mr. Schroeder (inaudible) to put some crushed stone in that one spot because my concern is my daughter is handicapped and if I need an ambulance up there or that bus needs to get up the road and during the winter I try to maintain the, you know, the snowplowing at least on that one section of the road to get up and down. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. GARMS: We'll address that. In regard to the backwash, I have a large drywell on the property and I can connect right into that and wash it into that and just let it drain into the ground so we don't have to worry about any run-off. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good, that was our next question. MEMBER OLIVA: And mechanicals for the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I was looking to see if you have a drywell on the property already. MR. GARMS: I don't know if it's -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a leeching pool on here, but I don't see a drywell. There's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 your water well. MR. GARMS: You know what, I think that's MEMBER WEISMAN: In any case, you will need a drywell for backwash. MR. GARMS: Yes. I will not be -- there won't be any backwash on the property cause I can't even take any more water on my property. MR. STUTT: it's all clay. MR. GARMS: It doesn't leech up there, Yeah, so that -- MEMBER OLIVA: Are you going to (inaudible) the liner? MEMBER WEISMAN: It's boulders and clay. MR. GARMS: done, I'll put into that. We Yeah, when I have the pool a well in and just backwash don't have to worry about it. MEMBER OLIVA: The mechanicals will be not -- and of course, you know you'll have to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 soundproofed? MR. GARMS: Yes. Yes. I don't want to hear it either. MEMBER WEISMAN: We can condition this with, yeah, with soundproof cabinetry for the pump equipment and drywell. You know, that's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 fence it. Four-foot fence around it. MR. GARMS: I have a two-year-old, it'll be fenced two times. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want you to know that in some instances these accesses are denied within the disapproval for 280A, which is fire access. This has not been the case in this application. Okay. So it really behooves you to either speak to the Highway Superintendent and create that special use district after the pool is built and after the road is improved by whoever improves it, but in future situations up there it may be denied and you may not be able to do anything until the road is brought up to minimum specifications. So just be aware of that and that's the only reason why I allowed this discourse to continue, okay, because we wanted to explain that to you and just make you aware of that situation up there. BOARD ASST.: There's a procedure for that, too. You can apply for a variance under the New York Town Law 280A for fire vehicle access and that means everyone who has access over that right-of-way may have to chip-in and PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 bring it up to standards. Zoning Board of Appeals or it's on a development map. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's also the Planning Board if Is there anybody else who would like to this application? Seeing no hands, closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: speak for or against I'll make a motion reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING #6262 James and Denise Martin MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-114, based on the Building Inspector's November 7, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed one-story additions and alternations to the existing dwelling, which new construction will be less than the code- required front yard setback of 60 feet on this 160,781 square foot parcel, located at Meadow Beach Lane extension (120 Suter's Right-of- Way), Mattituck; CTM 116-4-31." Is there anyone here to present that? Ural? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MR. TALGAT: Good. How are you, Ural? Ural Talgat, Samuels and (Inaudible) Architects. Good morning. Good to see all of you, especially you, Ruth. I'm here (inaudible) this project for the Martins and I just want to explain a couple of things. The Martins originally wanted to add a garage structure. They're buying a couple of cars and they wanted to store them. As of right, we explained this to the Martins, we can only locate that garage structure in a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 portion of the property that was probably not too conducive for development and I have an aerial photograph. If I can show the Board? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MR. TALGAT: a small copy and (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, this [Not at microphone.] I have I also have a larger copy is the alternate, proposed alternate location. MR. TALGAT: [Not at microphone.] According to zoning, we can build it as of right and we were not sure that that would be the correct placement for the garage structure (inaudible) portion of the property that is considered (inaudible) as the front yard. So we decided to attach the structure to the existing residence, thereby, what was happening and that's why we're here, it would be in a portion of the front yard by adding three feet to the existing structure or the (inaudible) or (inaudible) towards the north (inaudible) and we thought that this would be less impact on the property than say (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll begin. First of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 all, I absolutely agree that the very small addition you're proposing, which is one story, to the existing two-story garage, which has bedrooms above it, it's attached, has significantly less impact on that property and on just the neighborhood. MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very unobtrusive and it's really rather small and of great importance to me is that the only house that's directly affected by it is the house that's right across from the garage entrances -- MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- on that road, right- of-way, and the individual property owner wrote a letter of support for it. MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're essentially maintaining the same setback that you already have from that right-of-way and the right-of- way is a secondary road relative to the primary road that you face. So I think it looks very handsome, the roof pitches are very nice. I think it'll be done very well and it's certainly much less of an impact than Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 another accessory structure. Also, it makes much more sense in terms of just the way the property functions. MR. TALGAT: Yes. This is all true and one thing that we decided also was to keep the accessory structure iow, architecturally in terms of massing when we were looking at the building there was a tower formed there and to protrude out from that on top of the garage we thought that would detract away from the architecture, the historical quality of that house. So we decided to keep it iow and unobtrusive also. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. The shed that's mentioned here and is on the plan, just a concrete pad is down there now, right? MR. TALGAT: I believe so, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you're building that -- they're putting in the swimming pool, so we just have the pad there. MR. TALGAT: That's correct. Yeah, it hasn't been built yet. We were here a couple of years ago. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's related to the use of the pool? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. TALGAT: That's for the pool, right. MEMBER WEISMAN: The equipment and so on. MR. TALGAT: Right. Correct. That shed MEMBER WEISMAN: variance for already, courts and so on. MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, further questions. MR. SCHNEIDER: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. TALGAT: MEMBER OLIVA: is. The pool you've got a so it's the tennis MEMBER WEISMAN: that pool's going to I don't have any No questions. The tennis court. Did it work out nicely? It's beautiful, it really Can't wait to see how look. MR. TALGAT: Yeah, wait until you see the pool. The pool is supposed to be very nice, but I was really happy about the tennis court. MEMBER OLIVA: It's great. You'd never know it was there. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's really unobtrusive. MR. TALGAT: The last time we were here we were talking about the (inaudible) factor PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 and -- MEMBER OLIVA: Right, oh yes. MR. TALGAT: -- I was thinking about that, but I think it's mostly I hear more of sailboat lines hitting masts more so then I do tennis courts where the balls are bouncing, but it turned out very nice and I'm very happy and the Martins are also very nice people. They tried to do the right thing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that was one of the considerations I was hoping they were doing. It's very nice. MR. TALGAT: It is. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any specific questions. We've had, as you know, a couple of variances on this property. I mean it seems to be done very properly. MEMBER SIMON: requirement for the setback, of course, the property, which Just an observation. The setback, front yard is affected by the size of is why the Code calls for a 60-foot setback on that side. MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: Which is pretty considerable and hardly has bearing on that PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 side of the property and the other mitigating factor is that's hardly the kind of road, that right of way, for which a 60-foot setback would seem to be obviously called for. MR. TALGAT: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: The other is in the separate ancillary comments that people made about the swimming pool, what I do remember, this is just a off-the-record sort of question, I mean it's on the record, obviously, but there was concerns from the neighbors and while to all of us here it looked as though there was a wonderful accommodation with the guard on the tennis court, I hope the neighbors are equally happy. That's all. MR. TALGAT: I think they are. I don't see any of them here right now. I don't know. So far the neighbor to the east and a little bit to the north, I've met him and we've had dealings with him in terms of landscaping, etc, etc and so far we met with him out there a couple of days I saw him and he had no complaints whatsoever. I think everybody is more concerned about getting the project PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 finished, at least the swimming pool, and so they can enjoy the summer and the Martins also want to do this and I'm not sure of their time schedule. I know Mr. Berger was here, but I don't know if this construction project will start in this spring, probably next fall so the Martins can enjoy the property and the neighbors also. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Okay, does anybody want to ask Mr. Berger a question regarding anything? He's standing outside right now. MEMBER WEISMAN: No. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that a pertinent issue to the Board? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't think so. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there anybody in the audience would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing and reserving decision until later. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6255 - E. Marelic CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request to Waive a merger of two properties under Zoning Code Section 280-11, based on the Building Inspector's November 24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval, citing Section 280-10. This property is shown on the Map of Bay Haven, Lots 32 and 33 as: (1) CTM 88-4-19 as vacant land, with a nonconforming area of +/- 17,500 square feet, and; (2) CTM 88-4-18 as an improved parcel, with a nonconforming area of +/- 17,500 square feet; At 1160 and 1000 Bay Haven Lane, Southold." MEMBER OLIVA: Ms. Moore? MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state your name for the record? MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore, I'm here on behalf of the Marelic family. Eva Marelic is here and so is her son. As you know, the waiver of merger provision was long in coming. It was a Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 provision that was put in a long time ago and recently -- MEMBER OLIVA: Updated or down (inaudible), whatever. MRS. MOORE: -- the input from yourself, Ms. Oliva, and in general, I think, support of the Board to try to bring fairness back to the process of grandfathering lots that were developed and bought really without the knowledge that they would merge. So we have a situation, I call Mrs. Marelic my poster child for waiver of merger, and I'm very pleased that that's the first application I get to bring before the Board. Bay Haven, as you know, is a very well- established subdivision in Southold. It is -- I asked Mr. Marelic how many lots remain vacant and really there find one, but it may be somewhere. This is one lots. It is also a lot facing one street, Mrs. is very few. I didn't interspersed there of the few vacant that is arguably Marelic's house is facing the other street as adjacent property. The properties are similar sized to the Bay Haven community. There are probably in this Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 subdivision alone 50 lots and in the adjacent subdivision another 50 lots and they are all of comparable size. So given the circumstances, again, Mr. and Mrs. Marelic when they purchased the properties the house lot was purchased in 1983, thereafter, in 1990 the vacant lot was purchased in anticipation of good investment, possible, you know, for her children and so on and unbeknownst to them the fact of buying them in the same name, at different times, and by different deeds, unfortunately, merged them. So again, I'm very pleased that we're -- we have the opportunity to come back to the Board to ask for a waiver of merger and, as I said, this was Mrs. Marelic I always say I think the Town Board was finally persuaded when Mrs. Marelic really laid into them as a mother would to the Board explaining the circumstances and the need for fairness. So we're here before the Board and if you have any questions I have them here; we'll answer whatever questions you might have. MEMBER OLIVA: Did you submit the PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 original plans for the subdivision? MRS. MOORE: The subdivision map? MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: I don't think I have the subdivision map. I can look in the Assessor's Office to see if there's a copy of the filed map there. I can try to piece together -- MEMBER OLIVA: I'd appreciate that. MRS. MOORE: I can do that. It's not a problem. MEMBER OLIVA: And also the adjacent one. I am familiar with that area. MRS. MOORE: What is the name of the adjacent subdivision, do you know? MEMBER OLIVA: One was -- Gin Lane is Bay Haven and then you have -- what was the other one? BOARD ASST.: Gin Lane is part of Bay Haven, right? MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MRS. MOORE: Bay Haven is this subdivision, I believe. Do you know what the name of the neighboring subdivision is? MEMBER OLIVA: That's Midway. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Ramble Road is across the street I think. MEMBER OLIVA: No, Ramble Road is down there. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but I think it was on the other side. MEMBER OLIVA: Because there was a big -- oh never mind. MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'll look and see if the Assessor's can provide that for me. MEMBER OLIVA: We did ride down there and it's a nice wooded lot, the empty one, and according to our new waiver of merger provision I think it seems to meet the criteria. MRS. MOORE: Yes. It's pretty much very straightforward. MEMBER OLIVA: Cause all the lots in that area are the same. MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes. And I did, as an officer of the Court, I'll put on the record that I did receive phone calls from the neighbors that we noticed and they were all very much in favor, you know, hoping that Mrs. Marelic is successful. I thanked them and Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Sewice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 they didn't have to be here, so -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the record, Moore, they bought the house in 1983; correct? MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MOORE: MS. is that '93. Uh, the house was built for them; is that correct? MRS. MARELIC: Yes in 1983. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, they bought the lot that the house is on in 19837 MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Do you need the (inaudible) page? I have the single CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: it right now. MRS. MOORE: Okay. and separate here. No. I'm looking at MEMBER WEISMAN: merged? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: Was On what basis were they Merger by death. it upon death? MRS. MOORE: Well, actually they were purchased in the same name. Both lots were purchased -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: Different years. MRS. MOORE: -- as Lucca Marelic and Eva Marelic and then -- but, at that point, I think that there was a provision for waiver of subdivided -- of certain subdivisions. So Bay Haven may have been one of the subdivisions that was exempt and then the exemption came out and the -- it continued to be in the same name. They did some estate planning in '98 and it was changed over to Lucca Marelic and Eva Marelic, his wife, as tenants in common. So they split the ownership, but again it remained in both family names, the husband and the wife. Mr. Marelic passed away, but, at that point, the ownership had continued pretty much both in the same name. MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's still then a merger by death? MEMBER SIMON: Would have been. MEMBER WEISMAN: Would have been. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it would have been a merger by death. It's interesting because I read -- the way that the Code is written it's a little confusing where it -- when you buy -- it does allow for transfer in a family and I PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 honestly couldn't tell if, you know, if it's purchased as a husband and wife and then transferred one to the husband, one to the wife, or whatever, that's permissible. I honestly, and if you're reading it that you can, that would certainly simplify things. We may not have to come to you on very simple applications like this. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MRS. MOORE: But I couldn't, in all fairness, I couldn't understand how it was written. So if that's -- if you find that it's not necessary to waive merger because you were permitted to transfer as a husband and wife into, you know, creating single and separate status from a family situation, that would simply things greatly. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well you already are before us. So I mean we -- MRS. MOORE: No, I obviate my need to come are family members. know. It would in on future ones that MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Yes. MRS. MOORE: And I think if that was -- that may have been the intention. I just PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 couldn't tell, as it was written, if it was -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it was the spirit of the law -- MRS. MOORE: Yes, exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but whether for the letter of the law, as described that way, it's very difficult to figure out. MRS. MOORE: I know that particular paragraph or sentence is a little convoluted, so I'm not sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: But what I would like to ask for, if you can provide it, is the 1959 Planning Board created subdivision map that shows the unimproved lots as well as the lot that the house is on and if that wasn't on there then maybe it was created by deed. I just want to, you know, before we go ahead, cause you certainly do meet -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- as far as I'm concerned all the criteria for waiver based on the new law. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to have the legal documents in place. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MOORE: Sure, that's not a problem. It appears from the single and separate, the way it usually reads is if it's -- if the lot wasn't created at the time it would in the single and separate say, "part of premises", and that's not the way the single and separate shows. It actually clearly shows that map of Bay Haven was filed in '59 and, thereafter, in one -- lot 9, let me see what it says here. Lot 9, the adjacent lot, lot 19. William Wells I guess would have been the developer at that time. He sold the vacant lot to Alexander Vitale, but it's as a particular parcel, not part of another parcel adjacent parcel, but I'll get you the map. MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible). MRS. MOORE: It shouldn't be that difficult to get the file map. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, have the tax map -- yeah. MRS. MOORE: I can get just so that we it -- I'm actually heading to the Assessor's Office so I can get that. That's not a problem. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, good. Alright. I don't have any other questions except how in Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the world do you contend with the deer in the area? Oh my God. MRS. MOORE: Don't feed them. MEMBER WEISMAN: They're even worse then in my property. MRS. MOORE: Don't feed them. MEMBER WEISMAN: They were literally annoyed that I drove up. MRS. MOORE: They're actually hanging out at my office. I've have somebody that hit a deer in my office, which is downtown. MEMBER OLIVA: Come to my backyard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry to say, but I need to go back to my original question. MRS. MOORE: Oh, what was your question? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in the purchase of the lot, the lot was purchased -- MRS. MOORE: The vacant lot you're saying? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. It was the lot tax map number 19. MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In 1990; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Let me look. Yes. June of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 1990. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: from Alexander F. MRS. MOORE: Right. You just mentioned Vitale as the -- Yes, the executor, right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- executor of the -- to Lucca and Eva; is that correct? MRS. MOORE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good. And then they did the exact same thing with the estate planning, as you mentioned, in '98? MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the lot as they did to the house? MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: Just a comment on the history of this. I agree this is the poster child for the amended law; however, as I remember and we spent a lot of time reading, discussing and analyzing the two precedence. It's very clear under the law of three or four years ago this would have been a hard time because of some provisions of it, but once the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 merger by death was already put into law this would not have been a problem and the other things would simply have not applied just because of the history of this. I mean looking at it, I mean, at any time, even five years ago, this was a case that would call for the law to be changed if the law said they couldn't do it because it's a -- not only is it a vacant lot, it is a lot that is totally unimproved, but as you know and you have some familiarity with cases where the so-called vacant lot wasn't completely vacant, but it was generally used and it was a lot harder to make the case that this was really one lot or really two separate lots, tax bills not withstanding. This is an easy case. MRS. MOORE: This is probably one of the easiest cases you're going to get, yes. MEMBER SIMON: Right. And it would have been a relatively easy case some time ago, at least a year and a half ago before this particular -- MRS. MOORE: Right. I think that the waiver, the unwaiver, the unmerging by death was a first step in the process -- Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: Right, yes. MRS. MOORE: -- which this one unfortunately they acquired as husband and wife and husband and the death, obviously, had occurred, that would have been exempt right off the bat. MEMBER SIMON: Right, right. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: No further questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone else would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. {See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING #6257 - Frank Zagarino Trust By Carey Zagarino MEMBER SIMON: "Requests for Variances under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's November 14, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a new single-family dwelling (after demolition of the existing building), for the reasons that the new construction: (1) will exceed the Code-limitation of 20% lot coverage on this 8,711 square foot lot, and; (2) will be less than the Code-required 35 ft. minimum rear yard setback. Location of Property: 200 South Oakwood Drive (westerly side), at Laurel, also shown on the Map of Laurel Park as Lot 15 and part of 16; CTM 1000-145-3-3.1." MS. GIGLIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the Board. My name is Jody Giglio of Bennett Enterprises with offices at 1029 William Floyd Parkway, Shirley, New York, here on behalf of the applicant. I have submitted the affidavits of mailing and posting along with white mailing PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 receipts and returned green cards and envelopes. The subject premise is situated on the west side of South Oakwood Drive 195 feet south of Peconic Bay Boulevard in Laurel. The applicant is requesting permission to demolish an existing one and a half story single-family dwelling build prior to the Town of Southold zoning ordinance and the proposed construction of a new two-story single-family dwelling. The existing lot coverage is 16.64 percent. The proposed is 23.3 percent and the zoning requires 20 percent. So we're requesting relief from that as well, as Mr. Simon had indicated, the rear yard setback, which is the existing is 3.8 feet, the proposed is 10 feet and the zoning requires 35 feet. I have provided the Board members with a copy of the Town of Southold property card. The card indicates that on May 19, 1960 a permit was taken out to remodel the existing home. In 1963, another permit was taken out for a proposed addition. On December 31, 1971, Mr. Zagarino purchased 0.006 acres from Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the adjoining property to the north. It appears that the shed and the stairs to access the roof deck were situated on the adjoining property and the transfer of the acreage was presumably the result of sale of the property to the north. The current taxes on the property are approximately $5,000.00 per year. As per the Assessor's Office to which I provided a set of the proposed plans, the new tax roll will reflect approximately $10,000.00 in tax revenue to the Town of Southold. The variance request before you, we feel, is minimal in character and will not adversely affect the surrounding properties or the values thereof. There are several homes on the block and I believe you all have photos of the homes on the block that have been remodeled. The proposed home is more in keeping with the nature and character of the neighborhood than the existing bungalow style currently in existence. The hardship is not self-created with regard to the rear yard setback in that the existing home is 6-foot closer to the rear property line than what is being proposed. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5O ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 The applicant can show that he meets the lot coverage standard by 87 percent, therefore, we feel the request is minimal for both variances being requested. The variance requested will not have a negative affect on the environment. The neighborhood is 100 percent developed. The sanitary system is substandard and does not meet the requirements of Article 6 of the Suffolk County Sanitary Code. There will be a new sanitary system installed, which will thereby benefit both the environment and groundwater management. We respectfully request that the Board grant the approval for the demolition and the proposal for the new two-story single-family dwelling. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I have a particular question. I'm not sure whether the people are aware that a demolition does not allow preservation of the nonconforming setback. MS. GIGLIO: No, I know that. MEMBER SIMON: Therefore, it's a significant -- it would be a significant variance with regard to the rear setback, even at 10 feet and then the question comes, and PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 this is a question I'm going to ask you, is since there's 60 feet between the proposed front of the house, between there and the road, why is the house being placed 10 feet, and now a higher house, 10 feet from the rear boundary line? MS. GIGLIO: Okay, the reason being is that the majority of the houses are situated on the west side of South Oakwood Drive maintain a similar setback to the 10 feet that is being proposed and if the house were to be moved up towards South Oakwood another 15 feet, the rear yard would actually be the side yard of the adjoining property to the north and the rear yard of the proposed dwelling would also be the side yard of the existing house to the west. MEMBER SIMON: Say that again, I don't think I followed that. MS. GIGLIO: If the house was pushed up closer to South Oakwood, then the rear yard would be the side yard. So the people would in the side houses -- MEMBER SIMON: I don't understand why it would be the side yard. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. GIGLIO: Because the people on both sides, the adjoining properties to the north and south will be looking from their houses into the rear yard. MEMBER SIMON: It'll be continuous with their side yard. MS. GIGLIO: That's correct. MEMBER SIMON: It would not become the side yard of this property. MEMBER WEISMAN: Of this property. MS. GIGLIO: No, of this property. I'm sorry, yeah, I'm saying it wrong. MEMBER SIMON: So the concern is about the neighbor's side yard not being mirrored on the other side of the property line. That's a new consideration, which I hadn't really thought of in those terms. Whether it's sufficient for the variance as applied for is something that we need to examine. MS. GIGLIO: Right, and as I indicated, the further up the house moves closer to South Oakwood, the rear yard -- the way the house is proposed right now, 10 feet of the property line, is in-line with the neighbors. So the closer we move the house up, the rear yard if PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 they were to, you know, put a swimming pool or something in the backyard the houses to the north and to the south would then be looking down -- their houses would be even with the swimming pool rather than -- MEMBER SIMON: Okay, just to mention this, first of all, the fact that the neighboring houses are similarly nonconforming MS. GIGLIO: Right. MEMBER SIMON: -- is not an overpowering argument in favor of allowing a new house to be built, which is equally nonconforming. Secondly, with regard to the back yard, if, for example, the Zagarinos decide that they want to put in a swimming pool, or the successor owner, there would be no place for them to put it, but the front yard, which would require a very major and significant variance. So I -- we still need further arguments why the house shouldn't be made nonconforming (sic) since they're starting the new house, which will fit someplace else on the lot. MS. GIGLIO: Okay. Do you have any PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 objection to moving the house another 15 feet closer to South Oakwood? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you a question before you speak, Mr. Zagarino? MR. ZAGARINO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have a plan for the sanitary system before the Health Department, at this time? MS. GIGLIO: No, we don't. We were going to wait and see what the Board determines before we expended the costs of engineering the sanitary system and also paying the fee to the Suffolk County Department of Health Services. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's what I thought you were going to argue that the Health Department requires the sanitary system in the front yard. MR. ZAGARINO: Yeah, there'll be no more room. MEMBER WEISMAN: Which they will. MS. GIGLIO: They will, right. MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you won't need 60 feet to put it in. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. GIGLIO: No. It's -- MEMBER WEISMAN: In looking at the other houses along South Oakwood, it seemed that their front yard setbacks were not as far back as what you're proposing. MS. GIGLIO: Okay, do you -- MR. ZAGARINO: The houses to my south are all setback on the same line, if not closer than I am. Ail the houses to the south towards the water and I have, right now, when you look at the plans and you take the garage that I propose, which is a pretty large garage cause I have a business that I do big outdoor movie screens, which I've done in Love Lane and things like that, and I keep my trailer there, which I don't think is very hospitable to the neighbors or my boat, and the reason I did these plans was so I could put them into the garage. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, um-hmm. MR. ZAGARINO: And if we moved it up towards the center of the property, that garage would almost be right off the street cause the garage is out from the house on an L-shaped form. So I thought for the look of Pug[iese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the neighborhood and to keep everything clean and to keep it away that's why the garage is a little oversize so I can put everything inside and, obviously, I love where the house is situated and it's been there since, you know, 1943 and nobody's ever considered a pool cause we live, you know, five houses from the water and -- MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. ZAGARINO: Near the water. -- you know, this is in a trust left to my children and we've been there since 1943 and in my sister's will and in my will is that the kids never sell this house either and we have a huge involvement with the neighborhood three or four generations and we love being set on the back property line and with the neighbors. The way it is, I really can't fight for why, but one thing is the garage I had that will house my trailer and house my boat. If I move it forward, that garage will be significantly -- I would probably need another variance -- MEMBER OLIVA: Variance. MR. ZAGARINO: -- because the garage would slide so close to the front of the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 property, not the front of the house. Mr. Simon and I were looking at the house and he was asking me where it would come and I didn't know at that point either. We were trying to figure it out together, but the garage on the L of my plans goes so far cause it's just a long garage when I slide it to the middle the garage will be right at the front of the street (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, suggesting that you do that. no one's I mean, but the way your site plan is drawn you have 16 foot 4 inches from the property line to the wall of the garage. MR. ZAGARINO: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's a significant setback. Your house is much farther back than that and I don't have any objection to the additional lot coverage, that's fairly small if you really have good reason for a big garage, you know, that's at 33 feet. That's fine, but our job is to grant the smallest variance reasonably possible. So what we're exploring with you are the arguments you may offer to us to say, well, 10 PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 feet is the smallest. You know, even though it's large, it's very justifiable and I can understand emotionally saying this is where we're used to having our house and we're making it a little better than what it was, but when it's a demo and you're not rebuilding in place and in kind you really kind of start from scratch with the Code as written and so what we're trying to do is discuss with you where you could logically put in the sanitary system, which will be in the front yard. MR. ZAGARINO: Right, (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: And trying to create a little more conformity in the rear yard without your having to feel that, you know, it's completely alien to you in terms of what you're used to for all these years. MR. ZAGARINO: That, I mean, I can totally under, I mean, it's hard to argue the case of what is conforming cause I understand what's conforming now. I mean when you look at, you know, when you look at the houses on the block and every house from me down to the water is all on that back property line -- MEMBER OLIVA: Right. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. ZAGARINO: Visually it conforms very well now and I mean I'm the one who proposed the, with Scott Russell, proposed the skate park to be done in Mattituck and have gone through all that with the Mattituck Parks. I have two boys and many of their friends that skate and they all skate in their front yard and I much rather have one piece of property that's big enough to throw the football with my son and do the recreation that I do than to end up with two small yards. You know, I could say I want to throw the football with my 10-year-old which we do everyday. I mean that's not a sufficient argument for you, but for me it is. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me ask you this, given that you have 60 feet, if you were to move it toward the road another 10 feet, you'd have 50 feet and you'd have a 20-foot rear yard setback. That's something that I would consider far more, you know, directed towards conformity than 10 feet. 10 feet as opposed to 35 feet on a total demo is a lot. It's a really big, big variance and I do PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 understand your reasons and that's why we do have the public hearing so we can see -- MR. ZAGARINO: Well, obviously, on a selfish note, the way the neighborhood has been constructed, the two houses that are behind me are both on Peconic Bay Boulevard -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MR. ZAGARINO: -- and have totally cleared lots to the water. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MR. ZAGARINO: So where the house is now I have an undisturbed view of the water from my house and when you slide the house up I look into the barn that was approved one year when my family was in Florida and these people next to us built a full two-story car garage that I stare in. Ail of a sudden, you know, you go away one year when I was a kid and you come back and this huge barn is there. They did it in the winter when nobody was here and it's a flat wall right on my property and when I move the house up 15 feet, from the upstairs that I'm building, instead of having a water view I look directly into this person's barn and even if I, I mean, personally, I'd love to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 have it 2 feet from the property line cause I have an undisturbed view of the water from where I'm building the upstairs. The second I slide it up, there's literally a two-story barn, it's a huge barn the gentleman did and when I slide the house up anywhere you look out of my house now looks right into his barn. Even the way I've designed it, I've designed putting windows on the back so I'm not staring into this gentleman's wall. MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MR. ZAGARINO: So I mean that -- I mean that significantly affected my -- MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a more interesting -- MR. ZAGARINO: Well, it affects my resale, it affects the view and it affects what I'm looking into out of this whole -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. MR. ZAGARINO: I mean I was hoping -- I didn't know until I met Mr. Simon, I thought if they were on the property line, I could stay where I'm at. I didn't realize until I came today, but with the whole design and the architect I had draw the plans was to be able PuglJeseCou~ Repo~JngandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 tl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 to get the view from the back of the house and literally where this person's barn is we don't have any windows cause you're staring right into a flat wall there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to one thing, that this is a democratic remember vote. MR. ZAGARINO: I understand. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Three votes carry the application. So, in the presence of what Ms. Weisman is saying, we have to ask you the question that you will consider alternate relief as opposed to what you are requesting and that means whatever we can agree to is what will be the vote on the back yard setback. Will you do that? MR. ZAGARINO: Well do I -- MS. GIGLIO: Absolutely, we will certainly consider it, and what I would like to do for the Board to get a better idea and a better feel is, if we were to move the house up 35 feet is maybe have the engineer go out and stake where the back of the house would be because it's been other situations where there are other preexisting nonconforming setbacks PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that are close to the rear property line, once you build a house next door to it and you move it up, you know, the neighbor to the south is walking out his front door and looking right into his back yard, such as he would be -- his view of the water would be inhibited by the large barn that was built. So if I could have the, you know, rear of the property staked where the rear of the house would be at 35 feet, then again maybe at 25 feet and then again at 10 feet, just to give the Board a better feel, and I'll submit a letter and copies of the stakings after that has been done to give you a better feel for what Mr. Zagarino has stated to you. MEMBER OLIVA: You don't have public water along Peconic Bay Boulevard? MR. ZAGARINO: Yes. MS. GIGLIO: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. ZAGARINO: the east of myself. So you could tie-in -- It goes down the street They ran it down to (Inaudible), but they never came down South Oakwood. So it's quite a run, believe me, we've always wanted it. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service {631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay. MR. ZAGARINO: And it's quite a run to get it down our street. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's true. MR. ZAGARINO: And I was offered, obviously, this is my first time doing this, as you can tell, but I was offered from both neighbors on the side and the back and the front for them to come here today that have seen the plans and like where I have the house situated, they all offered to write letters. I didn't know if I would need them or not need them. I actually just saw one of the gentleman, cause I work up in Riverhead at the gym, who said do you want me to come speak. My directly across the street neighbor to where it's situated and everything; I don't know if that helps whatsoever, cause I know you have your zoning, but they are all -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it does. MR. ZAGARINO: Ail my four neighbors are willing to come. They are all willing to write letters and they all offered and I just have never been through this and didn't know what it would encompass. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because -- MEMBER OLIVA: Where do you have your well? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just wait one second, because of your mailings -- MR. ZAGARINO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, the fact that we can't close the hearing today, okay, they're welcome to write letters. MR. ZAGARINO: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we'll accept them up until the 14th, we're actually -- we're in effect, my suggestion to the Board is to close the hearing to (inaudible) testimony today and then to physically close the hearing on the 14th, which is the day we deliberate. BOARD ASST.: Make it April 7th, it's always the Friday before our meeting that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it's the Friday before our meeting, so they have until April 7. MR. ZAGARINO: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, I forgot about that. Ruth, I apologize. Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: And can you contact the office, please, when you have the stakes in place, so we can (inaudible) the site -- MEMBER OLIVA: We can go down and look. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and get a much better -- we've done this before, it's a very good idea. MS. GIGLIO: Certainly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We also need you to paint in the area of the stake, so just in case the stake falls over the paint is on the ground, with marking paint. MS. GIGLIO: Certainly and then we'll get the letters from the neighbors as well. I'll affirm the addresses that these were sent to and hopefully, get all the receipts before the The address for the one Yes, I will do that, too. -- you said you had the new 7th of April. BOARD ASST.: neighbor that's -- MR. ZAGARINO: BOARD ASST.: address for. MR. ZAGARINO: And the neighbor who I'm very good friends with that I was talking about, where the card came back, who is on my PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 south side, his house is set to the middle of his property. The reason I did the L -- GIGLIO: That's the side of the MS. garage? MR. ZAGARINO: No, no, no. looking out he is on the north Peconic Bay Boulevard and this If I'm side towards gentleman and I are friends and he has his kitchen built out there and the reason I did the L the way I did it from the other side is cause that -- they only have a hedge and if I built the garage on his side he would be staring out into the wall the same problem I had. So because we talked about it and the architect first wanted to do the L with the garage on the Peconic Bay Boulevard side and we moved it to the other side cause I didn't want to have my neighbor staring into a whatever 27-, 30-foot garage wall right outside of his kitchen window. So that's -- he's one I know would be opposed to me moving up because if I moved up he'd be staring right into the side of my house. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, one of our, you know, reasons for action has to do with character of the neighborhood and -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 68 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. ZAGARINO: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the stronger case you could make about that, the more justification we have for greater variance. MR. ZAGARINO: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not suggesting what the outcome is going to be, but, you know, following up on MR. ZAGARINO: No, but at least I know now how to proceed (inaudible). MEMBER SIMON: In line with this, we're not going to close the hearing today. It's going to be closed in what three weeks from now, three or four weeks, and the record is still open. There's no reason why you couldn't put some of these arguments in writing to us between now and the 7th of April. MR. ZAGARINO: much. MEMBER OLIVA: Okay. Thank you very So you have and septic system on that piece MS. GIGLIO: Correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me one second, we just want to rectify this one your own well of property. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 situation regarding this one letter that came back. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, there's two. The letter that came back is actually to Joan, it is not to Mr. (Inaudible), to Joan, so I assume Joan may be the owner of the property. You would need to have her address. MS. GIGLIO: Who is the one that -- MR. ZAGARINO: Jody Giamallo. MS. GIGLIO: -- just recently got divorced? BOARD ASST.: Joan is the name on the -- MR. ZAGARINO: That was Vinny Valco, which is on the other side. MS. GIGLIO: Vinny Valco. MR. ZAGARINO: Right, one of them. BOARD ASST.: This is Joan (inaudible) that we would need the address for. MR. ZAGARINO: I can go to her parent's house and her address cause she's moved into the city somewhere and I don't know where she gets her mail, but I will -- okay, that's the one that we need though, that one? BOARD ASST.: Yes, that's the important one. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me. 7O ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. ZAGARINO: Okay, she's cattycorner to BOARD ASST.: Thank you. The only other thing is the next hearing is April 23rd, if the hearing is left open it would be April 23rd date to close the hearing. MEMBER SIMON: Oh yeah. We can't close it at a special meeting. MEMBER WEISMAN: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We could close it on the 14th, if we receive all their documentation. MEMBER WEISMAN: No. Well, to close now subject to receipt. close at a public hearing, MEMBER SIMON: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think, we would have We have to and then - could close at any hearing, okay, as long as it's an open meeting. A scheduled open meeting that we've scheduled, we've closed at special meetings infinitum over the years. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. BOARD ASST.: If you're adjourning the hearing and we receive testimony from a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 Pardon me. You 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 neighbor, we would need her to appear on April Right. Right, that Okay and that may happen. Do I ask my neighbors to 23rd -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: is correct. BOARD ASST.: MR. ZAGARINO: I just have them Letters are fine. come here to testify or do right letters? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you send a certified BOARD ASST.: letter to Joan -- MR. ZAGARINO: BOARD ASST.: I'll do that. -- she's the only other one No problem, okay. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You're going to put Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 address. BOARD ASST.: on the 23rd. MR. ZAGARINO: She may appear, she may not that's, you know, can't speak right now. MR. ZAGARINO: Okay. BOARD ASST.: You can't speak for Joan, I guess, right? MR. ZAGARINO: No. I know her parents live further down on Peconic Bay Boulevard, I can go knock on their door and try and get her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 some setback markings MS. GIGLIO: Yes. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: down you said? Looking at the site plan on the north property line, that extra property that you had purchased so you could have the steps on the property there, if you open that up, what's that a five-foot extension? MR. ZAGARINO: Right. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: If you extend that southeast property line, could you put a stake there also at your 15-foot setback? MS. GIGLIO: The south -- MR. ZAGARINO: Here, what he's saying where the piece is here. MS. GIGLIO: Okay, so you want the northeast corner of the house staked? MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes. MS. GIGLIO: Okay. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right at that -- if you were to extend that line. Once you encroach into that then you would have another issue of -- MR. ZAGARINO: Yeah, then I get closer to what where we lose that piece -- I see what Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 you're saying. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: that is. MR. property. Okay, so we see where ZAGARINO: When I move off the Absolutely, I totally understand. To the 23rd. Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to not rush things. So we can get out there in time so you can submit all the stuff you want and then just come back before us at that time and we'll finalize it. MR. ZAGARINO: If that's the 23rd, by what date do you need the letters? BOARD ASST.: 14th. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We actually haven't established if we have room on the 23r~ yet. BOARD ASST.: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that's the reason why I was pointing toward the 14th. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER OLIVA: That's fine. MEMBER WEISMAN: I was just, procedurally, wondering whether it's simply better to just keep the hearing open until the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: The 14tn? BOARD ASST.: We can make room, that's why I (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if that's the case, we'll ask anybody in the audience if they would like to speak at this hearing at this time. If we see any hands, then we can make a determination of that (inaudible). I see no hands. So then can you get us a date, Linda, excuse me, a time for the hearing on the 23rd? BOARD ASST.: On the 23rd I would say at 1:15. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I make a motion adjourning this hearing until April 23rd at 1:15. MEMBER OLIVA: So moved. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6261 - Brian Frawley MEMBER SIMON: "Request for Variances based on the Building Inspector's November 3, 2008 Notice of Disapproval and Zoning Code Interpretation # 5039 (Walz application), citing Code Sections 280-112 and 280-124 for the minimum required side yard setbacks on nonconforming lots (51,955 square feet in this R-80 Zone). The applicant is proposing a new dwelling at less than 20 feet on a single side yard and less than 40 feet for total side yards. Location of Property: 4545 Hallock Lane (a private road), Mattituck; CTM CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: name. MR. WEBER: My name is 1000-112-1-2." Please state your Fred Weber, I'm the architect for the owners, Brian and Amy Frawley, who are sitting here, as well as the builder, Eugene Berger, who is here. I have the affidavit of postings as well as we sent out two notices to the surrounding property owners and only got one green card back. I contacted the owner or neighbor on Tuesday on the telephone. He lives in the city and he Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 said he hadn't been to the post office. I got a copy of the tracking from the post office. So it's sitting at his post office box right now, but the owner had already sent him a package, which showed all the floor plans, all the elevations of the house. So he had that package and we had conversation about it on the phone. He said that he knew the hearing was today that he wasn't going to be here. He basically had no objection to the project and he states that in the letter. Further, we got a letter of non- jurisdiction from the DEC since this application was filed. So I just wanted to submit that as well. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. MR. WEBER: So basically the lot is located on Hallock Lane, which is a small private road in Mattituck that leads up to the Long Island Sound. It's an elevated site with views of Long Island large site, a little configuration of the Sound. It's a fairly over an acre, but the lot is quite narrow. It's 75 feet wide by almost 700 feet deep. the depth of the lot is about nine or ten PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 So 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 times the width of the lot. So that creates some difficulty. There's an existing house on the site. It's an existing two-story house, it was built in the 1990s, early 1990s and it's, you know, not very well constructed. It needs some repairs including a new roof. sided production style house. this forward, this is a view from the water looking back. you currently look at as you It's a vinyl I can bring from the house So this is what look out toward Long Island Sound. There's not a lot of windows there and the bathrooms are facing the view. Ail the living spaces are on the other side of the house, there's no view to the water and it's not that well constructed. Basically, we've decided that the best thing to do would be to a teardown of the house. I know teardowns are not that popular or at least they're suspect, but in this case I think it's justified that the house that's there wasn't really designed for the site. It was basically a house that looked like it was going to be put in a subdivision and dropped on (inaudible). I have a few renderings of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 what the proposed house would look like. The idea is to make it much more into a kind of a shingle or craftsman style house. The -- again, it's going to be opened up to views of Long Island Sound a lot more. As far as the location of the house, off the back is a coastal erosion hazard line here. (Inaudible) there is the top of bluff, which we're over 100 feet from, so in that regard we've, you know, considered all the site plan requirements from the bluff. The difficulty is basically with the lot. I show you a first floor plan of the house. On the eastern side -- well, first off, this dotted red rectangle is the location of the existing house. This orange shaded area is the area that we've in a sense backed off the footprint of the existing house. So on the east side we're building, we're proposing to build 15 foot 6 inches, which is the existing setback from the side yard. Then all enclosed spaces that are remaining outside of that envelope here and here we are setting back the required 20 feet. On the west side, again, we're moving the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 boundary of the house back five and a half feet, which is that orange area, except for a small projection here, which is really a small architectural feature that the idea is to get views from the back rooms out to Long Island Sound and it doesn't have a great impact on the overall, you know, massing of the house. As far as the second floor, again, this is the profile of the existing house and these are the enclosed areas on the second floor, which are back at the 20 feet setback. So we are not blocking any neighbors' views. There's also a garage, detached garage proposed, which would have conforming setbacks and possibly we just located the swimming pool although the owner is not positive that's what he's going to do, but we (inaudible). Do you have any questions for myself or the owners? MEMBER SIMON: First, it's somewhat refreshing to see where there's a demo and there is a requirement for setback variation that the setback variation is not on the side of the water. MEMBER OLIVA: It sure is. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: And so the case for the narrowness of the lot is a strong point, but one question I have and this may have to do with the Building Department, it cites the Walz interpretation and I was curious whether anyone -- if you have any idea why they decided to invoke Walz where there is a demolition. In other words, we're talking about -- it's not a matter of increasing the nonconformity, it's starting with a brand-new nonconformity, so to speak. MR. WEBER: I agree. MEMBER SIMON: So that may just be an editorial problem on the part of -- whether Walz or not doesn't really make much difference as far as I'm concerned and I suspect for other people on the Board. I don't really have any questions. I certainly see that it's fairly modest. The thing is the fact that the variance of the footprint, the variance for the setback on the side is -- the setback will be greater than before is good, but necessarily because it's better, but just because it's okay. If it is okay, it's okay. I have no further questions. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to mention that we have not received anything from the evaluation of Soil and Water Conservation regarding this site. We are realizing that you are setting back the required distance from the Sound, the Code- required distance that is. So their recommendations tend to be very constructive based upon the overall objective of the future of the bluff, which we hope lasts for 100,000 more years. Okay, but we will send that you, forward that to you, when we receive it and this may be another issue we may want to leave open for a little while. I just wanted to mention that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. It's certainly going to be a wonderful house to live in. The side yards are more than adequate for emergency access, okay, so that's one advantage, and it is an incredibly narrow lot for a property that's that large in acreage. So I think it's only reasonable to want to put a fairly substantially sized house on a piece of property like that and I don't really have a great deal of difficulty with this because Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 82 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 there's absolutely no impact on the neighbors. There no impact on character of the neighborhood. There's no environmental impacts and I applaud the fact that you straight upfront said we're getting rid of this house. We're not going to start trying to pretend we're rebuilding (inaudible) and that you're consistent with the LWRP. I mean, those are the major things where we get into trouble. So I wish you good luck with this project and I think that roof jog is a wonderful device for a diagonal view as well (inaudible) as an architect (inaudible) myself. I mean it's just a little jog and it isn't intruding on anything. We have to call that the setback distance, but clearly the setback is even more substantial than that. So -- MR. WEBER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- no questions. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MEMBER OLIVA: I, too, was surprised that you didn't own that nice vacant spot to the west, but you don't. The lot is extremely Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 narrow and I think what you're doing sounds wonderful to me. MR. WEBER: Okay. MEMBER OLIVA: You meet the setback to the bluff, which knowing how much I like that CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had an application before us for a swimming pool attached to the side of the house along with a deck in Mattituck and during the application process a portion of the bluff just lopped right off. Okay. MEMBER OLIVA: Yup. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we could close the hearing pending the receipt of the Soil and Water Conservation evaluation, which would -- we could give you time to respond to that based on what they may or may not recommend -- MR. WEBER: You would be forwarding that to me or I -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As soon as we receive it, yes. MR. WEBER: Okay. two. BOARD ASST.: It should be in a day or Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. WEBER: So it's already in motion. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's already in motion, yeah. BOARD ASST.: We could have it on the desk at the end of the day today, but -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. What we would like you to do, and I'm not putting words in your mouth, is to tell us that you have accepted it and that you will take a look at the recormmendations that they are going to deal with based upon this. I have to tell you that that's one of the concerns that we have regarding this. It's something that does not necessarily cost the property owner any money to apply for, we basically do it on our own for anything that's on the water and their recommendations are very valuable. So those are -- and I'm not putting words in your mouth, so you don't have to -- MR. WEBER: No. I have to defer to the owner (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need you to use the mike, Mr. Frawley. MR. FRAWLEY: The question is that we'll follow the recommendations. I mean, within PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 reason, certainly, we want to preserve the bluff as well. We paid a lot of money for this property last year and that's what we paid for. So we're here cause we want to keep that property there and we'll do what we need to do to make sure that happens. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. The reason why I ask that question is we usually incorporate that into the decision, that we have received it and these are the recommendations that they are requesting and so on and so forth. Is there anybody else in the audience would like to speak for or against this application? This is appeal 6261. Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing pending the receipt of the information from Soil and Water, which we'll forward to the architect at that time. MEMBER SIMON: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING #6263 - Frank and Diane Palillo BOARD ASST.: Mr. Barrett, I wanted to give you a copy of a letter that the Board received today from the LWRP coordinator who states it's consistent. This is for your information. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request for a Variance under Sections 280-116-C and 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's December 2, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed additions and alterations to the existing single-family dwelling, which new construction will be less than the Code-required minimum of 35 feet for a rear yard setback and less than 75 feet from Great Pond (freshwater). Location of Property: 7433 Soundview Avenue, Southold; CTM 59-6-5.1." Mr. Barrett, MR. BARRETT: how do you do? Good morning. Robert Barrett and my address is (sic) Road, Nassau Point. Before I start, I'd like to give you a small handout that might help with the few words I'm going to (inaudible). Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 My name is 4295 Anston 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 As you know, allow my clients, Palillo, who are I'm here today to ask you to who are Frank and Diane sitting here, to get permission to modify the home which they've just bought at this address. If you look at the small handout you will see two colored photographs on the first page. One shows the front of the house and the other shows the back of the house and then the second handout is a drawing which shows you where exactly those dimensions are, which are mentioned in the disapproval. Before I proceed any further, those details I most happily report that I have received the affidavits of post date and mailing and I've also received the green receipts from the neighbors and those were lodged with the office two or three days ago. Since that time, I've also received emails from two of the neighbors. People are so busy these days they can't come personally. I'm sure they would if they could, but I'll just say -- I'll paraphrase what they said. In the case of Helen Bellano who lives two doors from the subject property, she says, we have no Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 objection to the renovation that the Palillos are planning. We think it will be an improvement on our little neighborhood. In fact, on the point of improvement, partly as the result of Frank's interest in purchasing this property, that has also had a beneficial affect on the properties in as much as Suffolk County Water have now taken the water service into this part of the road and all -- MEMBER OLIVA: Very good. MR. BENNETT: -- the way to the end so that all the houses can have the benefit of public water in the future. The second email I received is from Roy Faulk who lives next door to the Palillos. His wife is quite ill and they have made one trip here this past year, but it's doubtful they will be coming here personally, they live in California, and what they said was, "As owners of the home adjacent to the Palillos and being the owners of the buildable lots across the private driveway from the Palillos residence, my wife and I have no objection to the remodel plans as conveyed in all the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 89 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 documents which we have seen and reviewed. In addition, we will be pleased to see the notable improvement to the immediate neighborhood structure, appearance and value what the documents define." In other words, they're saying the plans Frank has are to upgrade this 1957 house in terms of appearance and in other matters also. The primary objective that he has is he and his wife have bought a house and are a married couple who have three daughters. So, you know, they're a very reasonable family. The current house, I would call it a semi-cape. It has two very small bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs and then the only decent size room downstairs is in fact subdivided into two rooms, which are in fact two bedrooms. Now, what we want to do is we want to merge those two rooms downstairs into one and it will become a combination TV room and possibly a place where guests might sleep overnight. The family will be sleeping upstairs and they, right now, they have basically one and a half bedrooms and the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 whole purpose of the improvement is to extend the second story in two ways. MEMBER OLIVA: Over the garage. MR. BARRETT: Number one to make a bedroom, which right now is 8-foot square into something more like 8 by 12 and then add a second bedroom so that in all they have three bedrooms on the top floor where he and his wife and their children can sleep comfortably in a peaceful neighborhood. MEMBER OLIVA: This is going to be done over the garage? MR. BARRETT: Yes, the reason they bought exactly. I might add this house is when they first came apparently they just fell in love with the view of Great Pond. MEMBER OLIVA: I don't blame them. MR. BARRETT: And, you know, it really does have one of the best views for being on the wider part of the pond. Now, you've seen the drawing and on the drawing the green outline is the current footprint of the building and what we have used as a guiding principle throughout all of our discussions as being we must stay within PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that green footprint. MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm. MR. BARRETT: And so what the owner decided was to extend the dormer on the lake side of the house and then, in order to add a little more illumination, add three gable dormers on the front side of the building. In no case do we violate the existing footprint and what more can I really say? It's adding to the house to make it more viable for a growing family. The benefits are several fold. First, of course, Frank and Diane get the weekend home of their dreams and from the point of view of Southold Township there's some significant advantages to us. Currently, this home which has basically been there since '57 is served by a single cesspool, which is only about 35 or 36 feet from Great Pond and it's many, many years old. The first thing Frank decided he wanted to do was he wanted to abandon that under supervision from the Health Department and we then went to the Health Department with a preliminary design for a large leaching field front lot. As soon as we had PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 preliminary approval from the Health Department we then went to the -- region one of the New York DEC and to the Town of Southold Trustees for approval to place that leaching field where it is. The DEC were a little concerned because the whole property is well within the 300 foot jurisdiction of the - however, they gave us permission and the Trustees followed up and also gave us permission, but only on proviso that the active leaching pools are outside of their immediate jurisdiction, which is the 100 foot from the bulkhead line. Having got that information, we then had to redesign the septic system to put the leaching pools basically in a row and that involved basically feeding the three on one side by one line and the three on the other side by another line. Now that is a unique configuration and Frank went through the added expense and time, etc, of obtaining approval from the Suffolk County Design Review Board of the Health Department in order to get that approval. That approval came through in November and shortly thereafter Frank became the proud owner of the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 house. He made a judgment that he would go ahead at that point without full approval because there was still the variance, but I think that adding this modern septic system can't do anything but good to Great Pond. The other aspects which could be considered improvements are, of course, the appearance of the house and we have, clearly have, written confirmation from two people, but I have interviewed everybody on that street and everybody, as far as I could see, are very happy with what we're doing and in some cases they wish they had the funds to do something themselves, but you know, that's life. So that's really all I have to say and I and Frank and Diana are obviously here to answer any questions you might have. Thank you. MEMBER OLIVA: The deck is going to be rebuilt also? MR. BENNETT: No, ma'am, no. The deck is in fine shape and it may be repainted, but the structure -- MEMBER OLIVA: The structure is good? Pug[ieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. BENNETT: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: From underneath, too? MR. BENNETT: I think I know how your question was forced. The Building Department when Vicky {inaudible) wrote the argument she mentioned reconstruction. The deck she's referring to is not the primary deck. As I said, when these people bought this they fell in love with the view and one of the architectural details they want is a very small balcony from what would be their bedroom MEMBER OLIVA: Oh okay, second floor. MR. BENNETT: It's 7-1/2 feet wide and it's cantilevered over the deck 5 feet. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BENNETT: the footprint. MEMBER WEISMAN: deck? MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BENNETT: Okay. Of course, it's well within So it's a second story Second story. Second story. MEMBER WEISMAN: It was confusing. MEMBER OLIVA: It was confusing. MEMBER WEISMAN: {Inaudible) structurally PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 in bad repair (inaudible). MR. BENNETT: No, I think, I'm not sure, it's hard to tell when these things were repaired, but I think the existing decks might have been repaired back in the 90s when the bulkhead was repaired. MEMBER WEISMAN: That wouldn't had -- MEMBER OLIVA: The footings -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm sorry, Ruth. You go ahead. MEMBER OLIVA: With previous experience out west with my son's deck, the footings are -- I'd like an engineer's report on the footings to make sure that they're safe because we've had, you know, you've seen it on the TV of decks falling down and I wouldn't want this to happen to these people and, of course, there is some mold and stuff on there, but that can be scrubbed off. MR. BENNETT: Sure. MEMBER OLIVA: There's no problem with that and the dormers will be in the front and in -- facing the pond? MR. BENNETT: Yes. Following the example of the architect who preceded me, I have a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 drawing here I'll just show you. [Not at microphone.] (Inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BENNETT: MEMBER OLIVA: twice. MR. BENNETT: Oh, that's This is -- The front, fine. I've been there [Not at microphone.] (Inaudible) back of the house. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. BENNETT: And here is (inaudible). So this is CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: continuous dormer. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BENNETT: the the existing -- It's called a A continuous dormer, okay. [Not at microphone.] (Inaudible) and here is the little balcony -- MEMBER OLIVA: Um-huh, okay. MR. BENNETT: -- (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. That's very helpful. MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you very much. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's going to make a great improvement in the neighborhood. MR. BENNETT: Thank you. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Soundview, so -- MEMBER SIMON: been answered. MR. BENNETT: MEMBER OLIVA: I live right on Ail of my questions have Thank you, Michael. So there will be leaders and gutters installed to a drywell? MR. BENNETT: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that. Yes. The -- when we went before the Town Engineer, of course, he wanted drywells to be added. MEMBER WEISMAN: They're on the survey. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. MR. BENNETT: [Not at microphone.] There's one here, one here and one here (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: More than adequate. MR. BENNETT: Three is perfectly adequate for this property. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, of course it is. Good. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the only other thing I just want to mention for the record is that the LWRP coordinator indicated that the evaluation is that the property is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 consistent with LWRP and I'll ask if anybody else would like to speak in favor or against this application. Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6265 - Mary E. Manning MEMBER SIMON: "Request for an Interpretation and/or Variance under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's revised December 12, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed addition to the existing single-family dwelling: (1) which will be less than the code-required minimum 10 ft. side yard, and; (2) which new construction will place the existing garage in a side yard instead of the Code-required rear yard, at 700 Terry Lane, Southold; CTM 65-1-12." MS. MANNING: Good morning. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning. State your name for the record, please. MS. MANNING: My name is Mary Manning. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MS. MANNING: How are you? I live at 700 Terry Lane in Southold, New York. I am the applicant for the two side yard variances as stated in my application. I believe the application, the survey, pictures and your visit to the site is fully self- explanatory; however, if you have any PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 questions, I am here to answer them. You have letters from my neighbors approving my application and I certainly hope you will grant me the variances so I can obtain a building permit and begin this addition. I have a contractor by the name of A1 Riker who is all ready to build the addition. We can get it done in the next month or two if you grant me the permission. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Wait. I understand you're asking basically it's not a increase in the footprint, but you're simply replacing the deck with a first floor addition; is that correct? MS. MANNING: That's correct. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I don't have any further questions on this. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's very straightforward. I certainly would want to have a little sitting room to look at that lovely pond and garden you have in the back. MS. MANNING: Yes, in the sununer it's just beautiful. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Charming, just charming. It's just an anomaly that your garage will be suddenly, it's not moving anywhere, it's just a legal technicality, so good luck with it. MS. MANNING: Thank you. MEMBER SIMON: I have a question. Since the garage isn't moving and the deck isn't moving, how does it place the garage in the side yard? That I didn't understand. MEMBER WEISMAN: I didn't either, frankly. MS. MANNING: I have no idea what that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This has been a recent new -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I really don't understand it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- evaluation by the -- not really recent, in the last couple of years, by the Building Inspector -- BOARD ASST.: addition. MEMBER SIMON: was. BOARD ASST.: Because it's a one-story But it's where the deck But -- yeah -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: In other words, the deck - MEMBER OLIVA: It makes it more -- MEMBER WEISMAN: These plans are not -- BOARD ASST.: It was written up -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Although I think when I got there, cause the site plan shows it as though it would remain in the rear yard. MS. MANNING: It is in the rear yard. MEMBER WEISMAN: But when we got there, I could see -- it looked as though it's possible that somehow the garage is a little more forward. MEMBER SIMON: Unless it's caused an overlap. MS. MANNING: It is not, no. MEMBER SIMON: Unless the addition is going to extend just a little bit to the rear of where the deck is, because I paced it out and the edge of the deck is in line with the front of the garage. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's right. MS. MANNING: It's not really, it's actually back towards the house. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it's a little Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 bit farther back. MS. MANNING: It's not -- it would not come directly to meet the front of the garage, there's about three feet where the deck ends and then the garage to the left, but the addition isn't going there, it's going to the right hand side extending out of the kitchen. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, regardless, I mean, it's just easier to go with the Notice of Disapproval rather than starting to question it. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: And I have no problems with either variance. MS. MANNING: Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MS. MANNINGS: Thank you. MEMBER OLIVA: It's a charming little house and I love the way you've done it. MS. MANNING: Mr. Mullins house. MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you, it used to be That's where he grew up. Yes. Oh. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. MANNING: It's original 1930s (inaudible) block. MEMBER WEISMAN: Very sweet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no questions. MS. MANNING: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll see if anybody else would like to speak. Is there anybody else in the audience would like to speak regarding this hearing, 61657 Seeing no hands, closing the hearing, later. I'll make a motion reserving decision until MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING #6256, 6276 as amended - Peter and Gail Schembri MEMBER SCHNEIDER: "Requests for the Variances, based on the Building Inspector's January 20, 2009 amended Notice of Disapproval concerning: (1) a proposed rear addition to the Existing dwelling with a setback at less than 100 feet from the top of the bluff adjacent to the Long Island Sound, and; (2) concerning a proposed single-story addition to the existing dwelling with a setback at less than the Code-required 15 feet on a single side yard on this 24,053-square-foot nonconforming lot. Location of Property: 1435 Sound View Road, Orient; CTM 15-3-16." MR. SCHEMBRI: How are you? I'm Pete Schembri. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to say one thing. When I originally inspected the property with Mr. Schembri, he did indicate to me that he was going to bring a second PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 application in and that is why we have a second application in and that is why we have a second application number; however, we are in fact incorporating both applications hearings into one. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Schembri, what would you like to tell us? MR. SCHEMBRI: Just I purchased the house back in November and early October, November and just the house was built in the late 1950s. I believe the original house that was built (inaudible). Our first thought was to actually replace the house that was there, the structure, but most of the neighbors that we had spoke to asked if we would consider keeping the house. With that, we have decided to keep the house that was there and make due with what was there and try to keep the integrity of what MEMBER OLIVA: MR. SCHEMBRI: in the same state the community was originally basically for what it was and what it is, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 Right. -- and to keep the house that it was. So we built it that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 stands there today, the only thing that we're missing was just a little more room. We have two kids, we plan on retiring there full-time. It's our own personal house. If we could have done anything else, we would have, but there's no other place to go in the footprint of that size, but to go for a variance try to gain a little more room. We went in front of the Trustees. We had two meetings and the only thing they have asked us to do was if we would consider making the room a little smaller. We did that, the meeting was last night, instead of 18 by 18, the room is going to be 16 by 18. MEMBER WEISMAN: 16 (inaudible) 2 foot setback from the bluff more. MR. SCHEMBRI: MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. SCHEMBRI: MEMBER WEISMAN: 2 foot less. So it would be 87 Correct. Okay. feet? MR. SCHEMBRI: And they felt there were no environmental issues that would be a problem and they said we're good to go. So they sent us here and here we are. MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's going to make PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that then totally the same as the deck, in line with the deck? MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes, that's what they wanted, to keep it in line with the deck. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what it is, yeah. MEMBER OLIVA: I didn't get to walk to the edge of that bluff. What condition is that bluff in? MR. SCHEMBRI: It's in very good shape. MEMBER OLIVA: Is it vegetated? MR. SCHEMBRI: Fully vegetated, yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Fully vegetated. MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Did the Trustees ask you to put a non-turf buffer at the top? MR. SCHEMBRI: Yeah. What it is is stairs out of there and they told us to stay off that whole section of the bluff. We're quite a ways away at 85 feet, so -- MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, I was pleased to see that. MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes. Yeah. MEMBER OLIVA: Because with those nor'easters back in the 90s destroy -- because the composition of the bluff in Orient-by-the- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 Sea and further west is really just old glacier material, a very fine gray cobbly-type of stuff that washed away -- MR. SCHEMBRI: Yeah. I guess back in the 50s or maybe the 40s, I'm not sure, the Army Corps of Engineers actually put jetties there. So there's like four jetties that protrude out along Orient-by-the-Sea. MEMBER OLIVA: They -- what's his name, used to have a railway down there at the end to launch boats for fishing. MR. SCHEMBRI: Right. Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: So let me ask -- MEMBER SIMON: Yes. I just had to (inaudible) and summarizing the Code is 100 feet, it wasn't always 100 feet and ordinarily when somebody wants a variance and exception to this there's going to be a reason. MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct. MEMBER SIMON: And the powerfulness of the reason depends upon how much of a variance is granted. In this case, what the -- there's a reason for the 100-foot rule. Certainly, because in many cases 100 feet is pretty much PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 what we need, and in some cases it may be less than we need and perhaps this case. So that would be an argument that could be made if you had a more hostile Board than you seem to have at the moment. So I think the argument would be that, in this case, the idea is that, yes, the deck and the addition could have been in the other side of the house, which is obviously not attractive from the point of view of the builder, and to make drastic changes in the structure of the house is also an enormous expense. I guess what I'm saying is that this seems to make sense, but looked at fully in terms of the particular reasons for doing this. So this is a long way of saying that I do not have any questions, but I guess what I -- the reason I'm saying this is I would like to resist the suggestion that sometimes we hear throughout the Town, not from you, certainly, but from other people, is look all you have to do, if you want an exception from the Code, is come before the Board and if the Code says 30 feet and you come and ask for 25, you can automatically get it. I don't think this is PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 automatic, I think it's deserved and I think the burden continues to be on the applicant to convince us, as I think you're convincing me, anyway, that it will be deserved. MR. SCHEMBRI: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: My -- first of all, as I said when I saw you at the site, you've done a lovely job on the renovation and I think that your approach to this entire property is the reason why relief was built into the law. You have no alternative location. MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very small house, you've kept it a small house while others have chosen to demolish or substantially enlarge. It is not a significant variance and the question I actually have is procedural, I think, rather than -- perhaps what you might want to do is submit a request for amended relief of 87 feet from the bluff, rather than 85, just so we're consistent. We don't need another Notice of Disapproval, or we can provide alternate relief at 87 feet. So (inaudible). MEMBER SIMON: Correct. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that's just a (inaudible). Gerry, what way do you prefer he do it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hadn't gotten to that actually, but normally what we ask the applicant to do is come up and modify the application, himself or herself. MEMBER WEISMAN: So submit a request for amended relief at 87 feet from the bluff. MEMBER SIMON: Couldn't we just do it by simply denying it at 85 and -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we could. MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, we could do it either way. MEMBER SIMON: -- have the amended at 87. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to ask the proverbial question alternate relief? MEMBER SIMON: is will you accept But it doesn't require anymore papers. That's what I'm saying. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he just -- he signs it on the application, right on the survey. MEMBER WEISMAN: I think rather than put Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 down a denial, since you have already requested a greater setback, it's probably better if you just simply request 87 feet instead and put it in writing and then we're done. MR. SCHEMBRI: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Any other questions? MEMBER OLIVA: No. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No. It's a nice project. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see if anybody else would like to speak. Would anybody else like to speak? Sir, state your name for the record, please. MR. CHUSIANO: My name is Mr. Chusiano. I reside at 1525 Soundview Road. I'm directly next door to Mr. Schembri. A number of years ago my wife and I were contract vendees for a Sound-front piece of property in Peconic. At that time, we applied for all the proper permits and fulfilled all the requests of the meetings of the Trustees and the end result was we weren't allowed to Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 build because we were less than 100 feet from the bluff. We were sandwiched between a small wetlands and the bluff, we were at 87 feet. The property was deemed non-buildable. So after an expensive lesson we just said, okay, that's the law, you know, we accepted it and just moved on our merry way. Then we found this piece that we live on now, it was vacant property. We bought it and now that we had the education behind us we submitted all the plans. Inadvertently, at some spots it was 97 feet from the bluff. We were told no good; you have to redo these plans. So we spent a little more money, redid the plans to accept the other three feet and everything went fine. Now, last year I applied to the Trustees to have stairs, beach They sent over one of examined the property. access stairs put in. the Trustees, he He said no problem, you know, we're only 8-foot high. Based upon what he said, we went and we got all our paperwork in order, spent $3,000.00, came to the meeting and once again we were denied. We were denied because there's a law that's in Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the book that says if you're an adjacent property owner to an association property and the association property has beach access, I can't have access. I mean are there laws or is there no laws and who abides by the laws? I mean I got it three times here. It's not right. It's not right. It questions your credibility, to me. So if this happens, I mean, if it's okay then I'm building my stairs. There's no reason, it sends a message to me that there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to do that. MEMBER OLIVA: We can't grant you that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to understand one thing, you have not been before the Zoning Board in any one of those -- MEMBER OLIVA: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- situations. Okay. I can't speak for the Trustees on what they have done. Okay. And I was unaware of the fact that you couldn't have stairs, which is not necessarily germane to this application, but in all true candor, I understand your frustration. That's all I can tell you at this point. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: Right. BOARD ASST.: It sounds like a lot of other agencies, too, not this agency. MR. CHUSIANO: Well, like I said, you know, it was all based on setback. So -- MEMBER SIMON: I appreciate your remarks, though. MEMBER OLIVA: Right, I agree. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I do, too. I would ask you one favor, could you close that back door for us, please? MR. CHUSIANO: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much. Is there anybody else would like to speak on behalf of this application? Sir. Would you come up and state your name for the record? MR. LOBO: My name is Joseph Lobo. I live at 870 Soundview Road. I applaud the Trustees and I applaud the Board determination to maintain the ecological soundness of Long Island and our area. That's very good. The bays, I'm not an expert in that area, but I believe that you're doing -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 whatever you're doing, you're doing for the best interest of all residents, those who live by the bluff and those you live on the other side and those who live by the town. I think it's commendable, but I find and I think it should be something that should be applied equally to everyone and if you are to make the decision that Mr. -- what's his name? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Schembri. MR. LOBO: If he can build or not, it has to be consistent with past decisions, not based on personal relationship, business relationship or whatever or because these type of reasons. If he want to build an extra room, it could be done on top of the garage, I imagine. He has plenty of room up there. This setback it was determined to be 100 feet, it should be a reason and it should be a compelling reason and it should not be a reason that could otherwise be looked away in order to allow these things to happen because there is no control. You begin to make allowances and that's how (inaudible) maybe we should take a lesson on what's happening to the country now. Ail these rules and Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 regulations were relaxed until there is no laws and then everybody goes down. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just speak one second regarding that? MR. LOBO: I think that (inaudible) should be -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I apologize for cutting you off. When this law actually came into being, we had applications before us on a piece of property called Eastern Shores in Greenport, which are surprisingly smaller lots than these. They're narrower, little higher bluff, a lot of beach frontage and Councilman actually spearheaded this law, they have a rocks on the Stautenberg who which goes back sometime. I said to him, Paul, I don't know how this law is going to apply to Eastern Shores, which is a nonconforming lot in reference to size at that time. If Mr. Stautenberg was here and remembered that discussion with me, yes, that's what I to be attributable hopefully, he would say, said. He said, the law has to each piece of property, each piece of property is unique in its own fashion and I understand exactly what you're Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 saying, but the one thing you must understand, you and everybody else and I'm not pointing to you, I'm making a general statement, that by the nature of us looking at this piece of property, which is unique, it's a beautiful piece of property as I'm sure yours is and I'm sure the gentleman's next door is. We have a bluff that is relatively low, that is totally vegetated with no visible signs of any scoring down below. It has existing groins out into the Sound that have been in place there many years. Those are all factors that I use in judging the percentage of the variance and that is what I will use in the justification of this in granting it or not granting it and I just want you to be aware that if we didn't have that application before us at the time, okay, when Paul Stautenberg developed this law and the Town Board voted on it and it became Code and was codified in this I wouldn't have asked that question of him. What he said to me was, I just want you to look at every piece of property. I want you to determine the uniqueness of that property and the aspects of that piece of PuglJeseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 property. Is it high erosion area, is there (inaudible) scoring on the property, does the granting of this variance cause a significant detriment to this particular piece of property and that's what I want you to look at and that's what we're looking at in this particular property; that's what I'm looking at, I'm not speaking for the Board, but if they would ask me, that's what I would ask them to do and I know that the majority of them are going to look at it on that basis. I hope that answers your question. MR. LOBO: In other words, you're taking a calculated risk because in order to build you have to dig and you have to create foundation, you have to remove the soil -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. LOBO: -- and you have to create an unnecessary, who knows, detriment to the area that could render that beach more susceptible to damage in case of -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me -- again I apologize. MR. LOBO: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me go a little Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Semite (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 bit farther. We suggest to the applicants in any construction on the waterfront area that several things be taken into consideration. Hay bales be placed, okay, toward the waterside, that's number one. Number two, we suggest that no heavy equipment come in, nothing more than a modest size backhoe with rubber tires, no bulldozers, no anything that runs on chains or has anything but rubber belts or rubber tires on it. Okay and that the cement that is required to produce this room adjacent to the deck, okay, be done in a modest fashion so that no weight is added to the loading of the bluff that sits toward the rear of this house and that's what we do and we've done it on every single application since the law has come into being and where we started, specifically, was with swimming pools. Okay, because we have a garden variety of swimming pools in several areas of the Town and the one I'm thinking of right now is in Greenport in Pebble Beach where we have a phenomenal amount of swiraming pools on several levels of bluff, okay, much higher than this Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 particular piece of property. So we have done these things, okay, never in any way to hazard -- cause a hazard to the bluff in construction of something that intrudes into that 100 foot setback. I just want you to be aware of that. MEMBER SIMON: I would like to add something. I think, if I understand you, you're speaking to the question of consistency and what you could expect. MR. LOBO: Absolutely. MEMBER SIMON: I take that very, very seriously and we do. For example, it would be very embarrassing if we had made the kinds, we as a Board, had made the kinds of decisions that the speaker before you spoke of and now we seem to be changing. That, obviously, didn't happen, but the idea is there are two ways of getting it wrong. One is to be quite arbitrary and capricious is the term in the law when we get sued in who we give what to and the other one is to be mindless and mechanical regardless of the particular circumstances and I do agree with you that we need to justify every time we do something and should be able to distinguish what we do from PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 some other precedent just so that it is not just different but relatively different. So it's a different thing. We are trying, we're learning individually if some of us have said things that indicated the way we were leaning, five members of the Board will vote on this and it is a matter of taking this and taking prior consistency into account and the difference is if you were talking and mentioned that what happens in the nation and deregulation, if we made a decision that people don't like with regard to relaxing a regulation, it isn't because the government is ignoring the regulations, but it is scrutinizing, as Gerry would suggest, each case on its own merits so it's not descent into lawlessness, which I guess is the really scary fear that we all have when things don't seem to make sense. I take your comments very, very seriously and I think it's part of the general problem and I think that you've helped us clarify this whole issue, I think, at least I hope so. MR. LOBO: Thank you. BOARD ASST.: Sir, could we just have the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 spelling of your last name? MR. LOBO: L-O-B as in boy, O. BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much. MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to briefly add a comment, which is that people are not necessarily aware of the fact that the Zoning Board operates by State law and the State requires that we evaluate every application, every site individually. Now, that doesn't mean -- as Michael said on it's merits -- that doesn't mean that we don't look at other decisions that are related to it or precedent, but the Board of Relief is unique in a sense that the law requires us to use five specific criteria to evaluate each application for an area variance, not just that we make it up as we go along cause we feel intuitively this is a better decision or not and we have to write these findings with compelling arguments to justify variances and if we can't justify them, then we don't grant them, but the Board of Relief is here to grant relief from the law when such relief is justified based on these criteria. So I wish you had come before the Board PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 of Relief, sir, who spoke previously, because we may have been able to interpret things differently based on the merits of your particular application, in so far as we may have had jurisdiction over what you were trying to do, we may not have had jurisdiction. The Building Inspector would determine that. So it's important sometimes that the public understand {a) we do take all these comments very seriously, but we take our work very seriously because we affect the rights of property owners and we have to balance those rights as property owners with the rights and the welfare of the community and the environment and those are the boundaries that we operate within legally. So I just want there to be some understanding as to how and why we make the decisions we do and you're most welcome to come to our public meeting in which we deliberate over the potential decisions one way or the other. You may have heard us ask applicants, would you accept alternative relief, which means, that's too big a variance, you know, Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 can we make it a smaller variance, can you set it back farther, are you willing to do that? They don't have to be willing, we can deny it or we can provide alternative relief and they can accept it or not, you know, but we try to collaborate and cooperate in a reasonable way and in a very open way, which is why these public hearings are great because it gives anyone concerned an opportunity to speak about whatever is on their mind. MR. SCHEMBRI: I'd just like to say one thing. He mentioned just about environmentally the footing for the foundation of that 16 by 18. The other alternative was to take the entire house down and start from scratch and I don't think he realizes what that does environmentally digging out the entire site. Right now, it's a footprint that's on a -- right now half that house sits on a crawl space. There's probably a 15 by 15 little cellar in the entire house. For me to take out that entire structure to gain 4,000 or 5,000 square foot house it could be on that footprint, but I didn't alter what was there because I tried to keep the integrity of the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 community and that's what he was talking about keeping what is in place and I think by taking material out to do a full cellar like my neighbors do have in all their homes and excavate that type of site there would be tens times the amount of affect to the environment in that sense in hauling out in dumpsters what's there. You know, we just minimal impact on what what we had and that's tried to keep the was there and work with -- realistically that room is only like 290 or 280 square feet, 16 by 18, that's what the room size is, you know and we're going to do a crawl space under that. So we're not gonna really excavate a foundation for living area down there, it's just going to be a 4-foot trench and leave the material on site, it's not going anywhere. Just so he knows. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We just want you to be aware though that we are going to request that you use the lightest machinery possible. MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct. We'll use a mini excavator. Correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, and -- PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. SCHEMBRI: That's my own personal home. I'm going to be there for the rest of my life, I want it to be right, too. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak? Yes, ma'am. MS. IANELLI: My name is Deborah Ianelli. I'm the neighbor on the opposite side and, yes, I really do appreciate that Peter kept the original house. I, too, have an original house right next door and I'm actually very close to it. The houses are very close together so my concern is actually resale value of my home if that's going to disturb my resale value and also I'm concerned about my quality of life out here. I came out here like everybody else to enjoy the environs, the outside, and I'm concerned that this kind {inaudible) a new precedent that people can now just start building out 15 feet, 10 feet and I'm more concerned that it's just very close to me and I'm also concerned about a flagpole issue that a flagpole is allowed to be -- I don't Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 understand how a flagpole is allowed to be constructed in the back of a view that has a view of the Long Island Sound. How is any of this allowable? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just explain something to you? Unless you have scenic easement over anybody's property -- MS. IANELLI: A senior -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A scenic easement, you cannot -- MS. IANELLI: build their homes? So that's how everybody can CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You -- you know, your -- this may sound a little strange, but your view is guaranteed for your boundary lines. In order to have this view or that view, you need to have a scenic easement over that property. Okay, and I have to tell you, in the history of this Board that I have been on for 28 years, I know of one scenic easement that is in Mattituck, okay, that is call Matimar and it easement by the neighbor in swimming pool. That is the it is at a marina is a scenic the rear over the only one I have ever seen, okay, only because the person who Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 is the neighbor owned the property and proceeded to make sure that they had perfect view over that swimming pool for the continuation of the period of time that they owned that piece of property. So it is extremely important that you understand that whatever your neighbor wants to do, he or she can do it, okay, based upon the Codes of this Town, and that's basically it, but we hear waterfront issues, water view issues, excuse me, all the time and unfortunately we have to come out with that standard, I have to come out with that standard statement. I'm free to have everybody else offer a similar statement, I'm not laughing at the situation, I'm being honest with you. I always have to be careful with the words "I" and "we", okay, because although I'm speaking for the Board as being a member, I am only one member of this Board, regardless of Chairperson or not Chairperson and I don't control the Board in any way. We are five different independent thinkers and we do it in a democratic process. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. IANELLI: May I just show you a photo of Google Earth? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. BOARD ASST.: Can you speak a little louder? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we just mark that as being yours? BOARD ASST.: MS. IANELLI: separates us. Okay. (Inaudible) hedge that CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, sure. MS. IANELLI: (Inaudible) here and more here. My other neighbor Mike has a lot more room and we are just very close right here. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Did you ask the purpose of this room Oh yeah. I understand why Mr. Schembri what was? MS. IANELLI: he's doing it, to make his house larger. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. What the purpose of the room that's closest to your house cause I know there's a garage, a two-car garage on the site. MS. IANELLI: (Inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What did he tell Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 132 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you? MS. IANELLI: It's a bedroom. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a bedroom, okay. Alright, is there anything in this, during the hearing that we could assist you in having that hedgerow continue between the two houses and have it continued to perpetuate or can more greenery be placed there? Tell us what you would like to be done. MS. IANELLI: I don't know how far out it's going actually -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to present that to the Board. He can offer a statement. MS. IANELLI: I don't remember if it's going past the hedge line. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's pull the survey back out. MS. IANELLI: This is the side -- no it's not. MR. SCHEMBRI: BOARD ASST.: the hedge line. It's on the inside. This is on the inside of CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, it appears that you have total control over most of the hedgerow based upon the survey. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Sewice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. IANELLI: Correct, that's property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. our Okay, my concern that any type of live screened now. I CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MS. IANELLI: It's already screened, but it's still -- we're going to be very close together. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService {631)878-8355 in screening, greenery, plantings. MS. IANELLI: It's realize it's screened. question to you is, are you of a the construction of this bedroom will cause some problem with you and that you needed additional screening on that side between the two houses, between your property line and Mr. Schembri's? MS. IANELLI: I'm concerned that it's just so close. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that, but tell us what you would like us to do or what you'd like Mr. Schembri to do and we will consider it. MS. IANELLI: I'm not a builder. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that. BOARD ASST.: I think she's asking that it be at least 15 feet to meet Code; is that what is. you're asking? MS. IANELLI: I don't know what the Code BOARD ASST.: The Code is 15 feet. feet. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The garage was there; MS. IANELLI: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. So MS. IANELLI: It could be made The Code is 15 is that correct? it's -- into the room, which has been done up the block. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. When I was there the garage was open and it is strictly a garage. Okay, there's no question about it. Okay. MS. IANELLI: Oh yeah -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure anything can be done. I think based upon the size of the, which Mr. Schembri testified to, the size of the basement, I think it's going to be a garage, okay, at this particular point. But, at this particular point, is there anything else that you -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. resale value -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: alright. MS. IANELLI: close together. IANELLI: I'm just concerned about I understand, -- and the houses are very CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Okay, thank you. Yeah, can we make this part of the record? MS. IANELLI: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, thank you very much. Is there anybody else who would like to speak? Hearing no further comments, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6253 - Highland House FI, LLC MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-121G, based on the Building Inspector's November 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed alterations to an existing detached garage with (nonconforming) apartment above. The reasons stated are that "whenever a nonconforming use of a building or premises has been discontinued for a period of more than two years or has been changed to a higher classification or to a conforming use, anything in this article to the contrary notwithstanding, the nonconforming use of such building or premises shall no longer be permitted, unless a variance therefore shall have been granted by the Board of Appeals." The Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval is based on a Pre-Existing Certificate of Occupancy application inspection report dated 10/27/08 that states that the existing detached garage with apartment above has not been used in years. Location of Property: Oceanview Avenue and Heathulie Avenue, Fishers Island; CTM Parcel 1000-9-11-7.12." PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 Mr. Hamm? MR. HAMM: Stephen Hamm, 38 Nugent Street, Southampton for the applicant. I have a memorandum and letter from a neighbor that I received this morning if I can MEMBER SIMON: Um-hmm. MR. HAMM: I just want to give a little background. First, to point out Highland House FI, LLC which is the owner of the property is actually just an estate planning device not an investment company. It's owned by the Lawrence family, Susan and Peter Lawrence who have been long-time homeowners on Fishers. Mrs. Lawrence is here today, she's an experienced restorer of historic buildings and you can see on the cover of my memorandum that's a photograph taken in the 1920s that shows this carriage house in the foreground and the main house in the background. The property itself was in the Husband family, Elizabeth Husband, since the middle of the 1950s at least. Mrs. Husband died in 2002. Affidavits were submitted, which are also attached to my memorandum, showing that PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the carriage house, the apartment which is the top floor of the carriage house, a three- bedroom apartment was used continuously from prior to 1957 up until her death, which was in 2002. The property was then in the Husband, not technically in the estate, but the estate was being settled. It was in a trust that she had created during her lifetime. Some family members used it from time to time, but apparently it fell into disuse. They put the property on the market, Webster Bank, the Trustee of the Husband Trust put the property on the market in 2008. Well, I shouldn't say put it on the market, what they did was very unusual. It was a sealed bid process. They offered it to about eight potential purchasers and there were no conditions that were allowed other than clear title and there was a financing contingency, but there were no contingency, for example, determining that the apartment use had not been abandoned. In fact, Mr. Lawrence spoke informally and we're not holding anyone to this, but he was advised that use would be okay; however, following the closing we applied for the pre-existing Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 certificate of occupancy and we're here because it was turned down due to that particular section of the ordinance that was quoted. The main point that I would like to make, and then if you have questions for Mrs. Lawrence, she'd be happy to answer them, the main point here is we have a 4.56 acre parcel of property which is close to 200,000 square feet in an R-80 zone requiring a minimum of 80,000 square feet. This property is capable of being subdivided under applicable -- there is a small easement area that will not be counted, but the lot yield for this particular piece of property would be two lots; therefore, by granting a variance here you would not be setting a precedent that someone could come in and say, well, you gave this use on one lot and therefore would be held to something that you would not want to, have to explain later. My clients are very much interested in keeping this property intact. They have a large extended family, they do not want to subdivide it, which would be their option if PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 140 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 they could not get this apartment use restored. I think that's the points I'd like to make in introduction and if I can answer something or Mrs. Lawrence, then could you let me know. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you saying you'd trade-off the subdivision for the purposes of leaving this house intact? MR. HAMM: They would stipulate that this structure, if allowed, they would allow it or if it could be they would convert it to a conforming use, if they were to subdivide in the future. I wouldn't want to foreclose that in perpetuity and they have no intention of doing that, but if that were part of the stipulation -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in effect what we're saying conforming size and square footage, the lot lines. MR. HAMM: in reference to the but without drawing That's correct. I may be wrong that Southold ordinance at one time allowed a second structure in a single-family zone if there were enough lot area. Now I could be confusing that with another PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 ordinance, but -- MEMBER SIMON: It's another Town. MR. HAMM: Okay. Maybe that was a Health Department regulation. MEMBER SIMON: You might have confused that with a proposed legislation, which is making the round in some circles, but -- MR. HAMM: be -- you know, neighborhood is the memorandum, So the answer is, yes, you'd the character of the -- I addressed these issues in but clearly the structure is there. My clients have committed a large budget to restoring both the main house and the carriage house assuming they can use it for what its historic use has been and you -- I think you received something from Mr. Hobson, one of the neighbors, who would be very much impacted if a much larger second dwelling were built on, through subdivision, on this property. I just handed in one from a neighbor to the south whose property itself had been subdivided pursuant to a variance that he granted 20 or so years ago for lot area. That has two houses on it. So this is, you know, this is a large PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 142 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 lot. You're not going to be doing anything that someone will say -- will come back to you and argue that this is a precedent for them doing the same thing. These facts are very, probably very -- I shouldn't say very unique, but close to being unique. Unique in the variance sense anyway. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, just a couple of questions. I take it your argument as defense against the precedent objection is to give a word, uniqueness, and not just the uniqueness of the size of the lot, but also the historic nature of the building and the argument being, the argument that you might make, I suppose, is that it would be terrible to see this property go unused or totally empty, which would be under the doctrine of waste, would be a problem. That's the type of argument I'd imagine one could make. MR. HAMM: Yes. I address the various issues in that memorandum, including that, yeah. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MR. HAMM: And they would not, if they don't get the apartment use, it makes more Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 sense for them to convert this to a conforming use and then do a subdivision and put up, you know, probably what would be a much larger dwelling so you'd end up with three structures on this property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a question? Is this the Hay Harbor Club next door? MR. HAMM: It's the golf course, yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you aware of the time that we agonized over the Hay Harbor Club application through a series of hearings that, you know, it was close to McDonald's in Mattituck I have to tell you. MR. HAMM: Or Southampton Luraber maybe? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, or Southampton Luraber. akin to you. MEMBER SIMON: It might be a little more A little bit more substantive question is though that is this an application for a use variance? MR. HAMM: Well -- MEMBER SIMON: Somewhere in the application it talks about it and the conditions are fairly explicit and they're a Pug[iese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 lot harder to meet. MR. HAMM: I understand and I addressed that in case you consider that, I'd prefer that you consider it to restore a pre-existing nonconforming use, whatever category that falls under; however, I would -- MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I would suggest, I mean, the application seems to be ambiguous between those -- MR. HAMM: Well, that's just it and I addressed the harder issue because I think the issue, if you're going to consider it an area -- the ordinance doesn't say a use variance or area variance, it just says a variance. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MR. HA_MM: So you can disregard my arguments if you're willing to concede that it's an area variance in which case, obviously, our burden is -- MEMBER SIMON: Well -- MR. HAMM: -- much less. MEMBER SIMON: -- also, arguably it would be a matter of interpretation as to whether it fit under area variance rules or use variance rules and we are the body that decides Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 interpretations. get that clear. questions. So okay, I just wanted to I don't have any further MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to confirm some facts here, from the elevations it would appear topographically that part of the garage is below grade. The entrance to the garage (inaudible) and apartment is at grade. I'm looking at this drawing in particular. MRS. LAWRENCE: Hi, Susan Lawrence. I live in Darien, Connecticut. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I'm just trying to get a sense of the character and topography and -- MRS. LAWRENCE: That's right. The lower level has two stables and an area for carriages to be stored. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and then there's an apartment above, which is actually at grade on one side, anyway. MRS. LAWRENCE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, involves no alterations to footprint, I mean, perhaps MRS. LAWRENCE: the proposal the exterior or the exterior but no -- Correct. No, that's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. So basically it's MRS. LAWRENCE: It's upgrading systems. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just going to remain the way it is but being upgraded (inaudible) and modernizing and so on. MRS. LAWRENCE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, it's been that way for 75 years, I suspect if somebody had owned the property and absolutely abandoned the use, that would have been one thing, but given the way the law works and the length of time it takes to probate, especially if there's a trust involved and so on, it seems to me that that set of circumstances is what created the abandonment as it were or lack of use. So I think that there is some argument to be made there. Certainly it's much easier to approach this, should the Board decide to, not as a use variance, but rather as a restoration of preexisting nonconforming use that the abandonment was a consequence of legal action and not of disinterest in its continuation of its use. Having said that, I Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 don't really have any questions, I think the application speaks for itself. I'll just read your submission carefully and see what -- MR. HAMM: (Inaudible) is the much more difficult use variance issue, but they're similar. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Lawrence can I ask you a question? MRS. LAWRENCE: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. Hamm, I apologize for doing this. We thank you for coming in, it's very nice of you to come. Depending on which way this Board goes on this particular issue, it seems that this building is very important to you on the basis of a total renovation, not an architecturally changed total renovation, but a renovation so to speak, is there any chance in the future that it would become any more conforming in reference to it's setbacks to the property lines? Would it be moved in any way? MRS. LAWRENCE: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because of -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that's the reason why I'm asking the question, because of the lower half of the building -- MRS. LAWRENCE: Right. You would lose the architectural integrity (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so at all times that building has to remain in its present location. The reason why it was so interesting to me to ask that question of Mr. Hamm, excuse me, I wanted to see the Nay Harbor Club from that driveway, from that building. Okay, some seven, eight years ago when had that application and the amount of times we had hearings on it and the amount of people that came over. So I am aware of the building now and that's basically what is unique to me. That property. MRS. LAWRENCE: MEMBER WEISMAN: is a beautiful piece of It is. It definitely speaks to character of the neighborhood. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean when you look at these larger estates, which are becoming fewer and fewer, and greater density and subdivision and so on, it really transforms a historic of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the entire area. MRS. LAWRENCE: My theory is if we subdivide it that somewhere along the line it's going to get split up out of our family - MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. LAWRENCE: True. -- that a much larger probably inappropriate structure would be put up. MEMBER WEISMAN: control it. MRS. LAWRENCE: You couldn't be able to No, we couldn't control and in a dense space there would be three buildings, so -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Whatever was by right the zoning, which is a lot of different things. Yeah. MRS. LAWRENCE: MEMBER OLIVA: questions. Right. I don't have any MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MRS. LAWRENCE: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone else who would like to -- Mr. Hamm? Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 150 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. HAMM: Well, if you do put a condition on it, I just -- I don't want to foreclose forever the possibility of subdivision, but we would convert it to a conforming use as a condition to any future subdivision. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you give us some examples of conforming -- excuse me MR. HAMM: Storage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- basis to -- MR. HAMM: Storage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, no. Okay, but why don't you give us some suggestions in reference to the type of conditions that -- MR. HAMM: Oh. Sure, I'll submit them in writing to you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible). Okay. MR. HAMM: Yeah, I'll submit them in writing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. HAMM: Yeah, I'll submit them in writing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you do that? MR. HAMM: I would be happy to. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a little Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 more you bring in. MR. HAMM: It is. month. MEMBER WEISMAN: unique than most of the applications that I'll see you next I guess you will. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody else would like to speak for or against this application? This is the Highland House on Fishers Island, it's 6253. Seeing no hands and hearing no appeals out of the audience, closing the hearing, MEMBER OLIVA: I'll make a motion reserving decision -- Second. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- based upon the information that we're going to receive form the attorney or subject to. I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6258 Paul Katz MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-15{F), based on the Building Inspector's June 23, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory garage at a setback of less than the code-required minimum of 50 feet from the front yard lot line, at Mattituck Creek, 100 West Mill Road, Mattituck; CTM 113- Is speak? there someone here who wishes to CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Dwyer. MEMBER WEISMAN: As I understand it, you're proposing a 30-foot by 23.4-foot three- car garage at 37 feet front yard setback. You are on a corner lot. There are a lot of wetlands on the property that are having an impact upon where you can place things on the property. So other than the front yard setback, the footprint of the garage and the height is fine, it's to Code and both within the zoning Code. The accessory structure is alright for the size of the lot. Okay, I'll make some comments and ask Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 153 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 some questions like to say. MS. DWYER: after you tell us what you'd Nancy Dwyer on behalf of Paul Katz. Mr. Katz is here with me today. We are limited, because of the contour of the property and also the wetlands on the property, as to where this garage can be placed. We have explored different options on the property of what we can do and we feel that this has been the easiest place to place it. Less intrusive on the wetlands than any other place, it is approved by the DEC because of withholding the 10-foot contour line to the bluff and that has basically determined why we have found this place for the MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright receive an exemption from the MS. DWYER: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: letter? MS. DWYER: Yes, MEMBER WEISMAN: garage. and we did LWRP. Did you receive that I did. Thank you. Well, the land slopes toward the creek and the garage is primarily on the flattest portion of -- the proposed site is on the flattest part. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 154 MS. DWYER: That's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: There really aren't any other houses that are particularly in view, so I don't see any impact there particularly. Let's see. You know, the right-of-way is essentially fairly wide and it doesn't have other houses, it just leads to the water. MS. DWYER: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you know who has -- whose right-of-way -- who owns that right-of- way? MS. DWYER: No, I don't. Actually, it's the Town, I believe it's the Town of Southold that owns that and from last I saw it, it's pretty heavily wooded. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MS. DWYER: So I don't think it's used too often. MEMBER WEISMAN: Too often. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's a drainage pipe underneath the road that runs from the back wetland area and the purpose of that is to drain into the creek, which of course -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's really not PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 much draining anymore because it's really not too much of a wetland anymore. MS. DWYER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Well, anyway it wouldn't affect the right-of-way, it's on the other side of the house. So and you would be entering the proposed garage -- MS. DWYER: He would be entering the proposed garage from the West Mill side. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. is not by the right-of-way. the other side of the house. Yeah, but the site The site is on MS. DWYER: No, it's on the side of the property. MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait, wait. right-of-way Oh, yeah. Okay, I'll just pull my survey out. I got it back here. I just want to confirm this cause I have to write this. Oh yes, sure. You'll enter off the right-of-way, there's a driveway down and there's West Mill. This proposed garage is unheated? MS. DWYER: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: only. to remain For cars and storage Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 156 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. DWYER: Just for cars and storage. MEMBER WEISMAN: No plumbing? MS. DWYER: No plumbing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only the utility of electricity. MS. DWYER: That's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: No other questions. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions. MEMBER OLIVA: No, except {inaudible) taken that house because you're right opposite Luthers Road there going up, otherwise, I can see -- would it be just about where that car was parked? MS. DWYER: Um -- MEMBER OLIVA: I think that's the flattest area there. MS. DWYER: It's the flattest area where we're proposing the garage. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no way any car could be parked there because it's totally wooded right now. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There are flags there. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, no questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not answering for you, Nancy, it's just that I know the piece really well. MEMBER SIMON: Just the place that is now being used as a car park, that's on the other side, right? That's on the north side. MS. DWYER: It's a horseshoe driveway basically. MEMBER SIMON: Right, right, right. That will stay? MS. DWYER: That will stay. MEMBER SIMON: And will the garage be used for putting things? MS. DWYER: cars in as opposed to other For putting the cars. MEMBER SIMON: Rather than have the cars where they are. MS. DWYER: That's correct. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. I have no questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see if anybody else has any questions, Ms. Dwyer, don't leave until we close the hearing. Is there anybody else would like to speak PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 158 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 for or against this application? Anybody like to speak against the application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63~) 878-8355 159 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HEARING %6281 amended, 6243 - Kevin B. and Jeanine Faga CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, this is a continued hearing, Faga #6243 and 6281. Mr. Butler, would you state your name for the record, please? MR. BUTLER: Jeffrey T. Butler, here on behalf of Kevin and Jeanine Faga. Mr. Faga is here with me. Just to refresh the Board's memory, we were here last month with the denial -- a denial was written for the 75-foot setback, new construction within the 75-foot from the existing bulkhead and we then recognized that the proposal also included extending vertically some walls that were already within the side yard setback. So I had to get the denial rewritten and we're here back today to show you that we've amended the plan to push the addition back as far as possible, as we had discussed, and to include both aspects of the denial. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of the issues here that came about is, is this house going to be lifted at all? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 to that MR. yes. MR. BUTLER: We have to come up eight inches to comply with flood. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the existing house, which is shown as (a) existing one-and-a-half story residence to be renovated to a two-and-a-half story residence, will be lifted eight inches and then everything that's attached or conforming to that will be lifted same amount; is that correct? BUTLER: To the best extent possible, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MR. BUTLER: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. What do that, that's not a sarcastic statement MR. BUTLER: Well, in the -- MEMBER OLIVA: Lifting the house. MR. BUTLER: In the course of construction -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right? MR. BUTLER: -- the plan is, like I stated last time, the foundation is, that's there, is sound. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. BUTLER: The intent is to pick up Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 you mean by the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 floor system. There is some remedial work that needs to be done to the floor system that's in place now. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. BUTLER: Renovate the existing structure on top of that once the new -- once the foundation is lifted, the floor system is lifted up. The front part, as we talked about, is about three feet of the existing front part of the house, front being on the water side, which is being cutback so there's foundation work that needs to be done there, so that we're back on the opposite side of the Coastal Erosion Hazard Line. MEMBER OLIVA: And FEMA. MR. BUTLER: Excuse me? MEMBER OLIVA: You're raising it because of FEMA, too, right? MR. BUTLER: Yes. Yeah. So that's -- that's the plan. MEMBER OLIVA: What is the composition of the foundation that's there now? MR. BUTLER: Cement block. MEMBER OLIVA: Cement block. MR. BUTLER: Yeah. We're also filling in Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 162 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 the basement, too, there's a basement there. MEMBER OLIVA: Right, you'd also have to fill that in because of FEMA, with sand. MR. BUTLER: To be FEMA compliant as well. MEMBER WEISMAN: courses on the top to So you'll just be adding raise it. MR. BUTLER: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What kind of ground disturbance will there be? MR. BUTLER: Um, there'd be ground disturbance where the new addition is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. BUTLER: And there'd be ground disturbance seaward of that for the three -- four footings to carry that porch that we moved back. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. BUTLER: There'll be ground disturbance where the existing house or foundation is being cutback and that all lies landward of our hay bale and silt fence line that we have. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But here's the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 question, let's assume that in a catastrophic situation you damage the foundation. We give you a decision which says in place, in kind. Okay and for some strange reason you have to either put spread footings in or something else that would require you to come back here, that's a concern that I have -- MEMBER OLIVA: I do. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- so inclined to grant you this if this Board is variance based upon some of the suggestions that you have made for us that we have made to you and, I mean, filling in a basement is a little problematic, but, you know, assuming that wouldn't be much of a problem, but lifting may be a problem. MR. BUTLER: There's a Bilco door. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. BUTLER: For access down there now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. But, I mean, once you fill it and you raise it you're going to put a cement barrier over the top of that sand. MR. BUTLER: Correct. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you foresee any PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 problem in a damage situation of taking those "I" bolts and cutting those off and lifting this structure up that would damage the foundation that would cause you a problem with the Building Department on a nonconforming situation? MR. BUTLER: I, like I said, I've been and looked at the foundation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm. MR. BUTLER: The existing foundation -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hope you think that this is all -- this is not counterproductive, this is (inaudible). MR. BUTLER: No. Absolutely, I understand exactly. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. BUTLER: This is a sketch I've put together for you. BOARD ASST.: That's the foundation area, right. Okay, thank you. MR. BUTLER: Yes. [Not at microphone.] The blue represents, the hash marks (inaudible) on the (inaudible), that's what is being removed. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BUTLER: here is the new. blue. Right. Okay, the other hash mark It represents -- that's the MR. BUTLER: existing which is eight inches. MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct. MR. BUTLER: The yellow is what's in place, the blue on top of the top hash mark is the new wall that's being poured in place. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. The yellow represents going to be raise one block, MEMBER OLIVA: Okay. MR. BUTLER: Alright. I've inspected this foundation on the inside, I'm comfortable with this supporting the new structure. The area, the only place that could be (inaudible) is out of here on these walls. We did some excavation on the outside and saw the same block structure. So it's reasonable to assume that it's going to be capable of carrying that load that's there now. If the situation comes up, we have an opportunity in filling this basement in to do some pinning for spread Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 footings, if required, on the inside without disturbing the existing foundation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's what's so unique about this particular application and that's why it's a little intriguing to me to be honest with you. MEMBER OLIVA: How deep is the basement that's there? MR. BUTLER: I think it's 6-6, I think. MR. FAGA: Good afternoon, I'm Kevin Faga. MEMBER OLIVA: Hi. MR. FAGA: The main structure is well under 6 feet. MR. BUTLER: Yeah, it doesn't classify as crawl space that's why it needs to be filled in. So it's -- MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BUTLER: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BUTLER: Okay. But it's not 8 feet. It's not 8 feet. No, it's probably about 6'6". I remember ducking under the girders. MEMBER OLIVA: I could get under there. MR. FAGA: Me too. MR. BUTLER: But you won't be able to. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER OLIVA: No. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, if the Board is so inclined to grant everything that you are requesting at this time, how would you suggest that we handle the aspects of something being faulted so you don't have to come back from the Building Department? MR. BUTLER: is damaged in the MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BUTLER: If the existing foundation Yeah. -- course of lifting and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You've have to cut the pins off. I mean, you know, this is not just -- it's just not laying there, I'm sure it's pinned down. MR. BUTLER: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I mean these are all issues. Blocks can blow out and you can have a fault in a wall and the reason why I ask you this question we had a similar situation on the Sound, which you may or may not be aware of, and in this particular case the footings were substandard, so they had to replace an entire wall. Okay, and I'm not saying that's the case here, okay, but -- Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Be aware. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Be, you know, we have to make you aware of that because there's a possibility this is going to hold up the whole process again if that situation happens. MR. BUTLER: If we damage beyond repair in the course of construction, the existing foundation, how do we protect that with your decision, is that the question? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MR. BUTLER: I don't know. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we could simply say that structural repairs to the foundation, existing foundation, as needed are permitted so long as they are done within the existing - MR. BUTLER: The existing footprint. MEMBER WEISMAN: Footprint of the existing foundation because you're not going to be replacing those walls. I mean, the house is not (inaudible). MR. BUTLER: No, but there may be some remedial repair. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm concerned about. Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 169 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: repair -- BOARD ASST.: MR. BUTLER: Right. The remedial (Inaudible) beyond repair. For instance, Gerry -- MEMBER WEISMAN: house itself? BOARD ASST.: MR. BUTLER: The structure of the No, the foundation. -- to make this further flood compliant we have to cut in vents. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you're going to do that with a saw. MR. BUTLER: We're going to do that with a saw, but, yes, in the course of removing and lifting, if the sill plate pulls up a block, you know, that block would have to be -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Replaced. MR. BUTLER: -- replaced. MEMBER WEISMAN: But that's okay, you know, we can write it so that reconstruction or replacement is permitted so long as it's on the existing footprint of the existing -- MR. BUTLER: Right. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And it doesn't make the foundation not structurally sound. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible). MR. BUTLER: Right and, like I said, with the footings, I can handle that on the inside based on the fact that we're filling this. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I think it's a great idea. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. MR. BUTLER: Yeah. So we -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'm just -- I have to tell you that I'm just using this as a model or a learning experience for future applications, not necessarily this one, but, you know, future ones that we need to address because we think we have everything covered and then -- MR. BUTLER: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- something happens. We certainly don't wish this to be the case -- MR. BUTLER: BOARD ASST.: MR. BUTLER: No, I understand. We had one similar to this. And we've all seen things happen on the construction site that -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 171 (tape change) CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that sounds good. You're okay with that? MEMBER WEISMAN: Absolutely. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. (Inaudible) to do spread footings, you know, if they're handled within the volume interior volume of the existing foundation, there's no additional land disturbance. It's fine. MR. BUTLER: Correct and we do have footing work to do within that boundary because they have, like I said, some remedial floor structure work to do and new walls coming. That's why we have some new footings in that space anyway. MEMBER WEISMAN: That you have to put in anyhow. MR. BUTLER: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: And the addition. MR. BUTLER: Plus there's the addition, correct. MEMBER OLIVA: Which also will be just a crawl space? MR. BUTLER: Yes. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 172 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, we'll ask the question, is there anybody else would like to speak in favor or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 HEARING %6224, 6100 Realty, Inc. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Romanelli Ms. Mesiano, could I ask you to come up here for a moment? This has nothing to do with this -- maybe it does. We'll open the hearing first, but I need you to verify something. BOARD ASST.: This is the Romanelli hearing %6224, 6100 we're recording. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct. Would you verify the fact that this is the newest plan that Mr. Romanelli has before us? BOARD ASST.: That's the May l0th submission that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the May l0th, okay. Would you kindly lay that down there on the table? Would you verify that these are the changes to be made for that building for us? You are the agent for Mr. Romanelli? MS. MESIANO: Yes. These are the proposed current plans to the (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, why don't you lay that down there right next to it? MS. MESIANO: Okay. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 174 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're going to take approximately a three to five minute recess on this and we're going to let the public take a look at these so that everybody sees that there is a change in this plan. The major change is, of course, the front building which has gone from 100 feet in width to, I believe, 75. Okay, would you like to state any other changes that you actually may be aware of? MS. MESIANO: Yes. Another change is that what we identify as building %3 has been brought forward or northerly and that setback which is now 75 feet is now, I think, in compliance with rear yard and, let's see, we reduced the size of the front building. We changed the setback of the front building. Under the Code, we would have been allowed a 63-foot setback using the offset of the properties within 300 feet; however, we have the setback of 76 feet and again we've reduced the size of the building by 25 percent. The 75-foot setback (inaudible). MR. ROMANELLI: The rear building and the front building are the two main ones. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Romanelli. MS. MESIANO: Yeah, and commented. BOARD ASST.: That was Mr. Mr. Romanelli is here For the tape. MEMBER WEISMAN: So building #1 has three offices not four? MS. MESIANO: Yes. They've given up one of yield, which as you're well aware will have an impact on the (inaudible) of the property (inaudible), but that's a concession Mr. Romanelli was willing to make to try to achieve this type of plan. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay -- go ahead Leslie. MEMBER WEISMAN: So there'll be a total of five contractors on site? MS. MESIANO: One, two, three -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Previously, I think there were six. MEMBER OLIVA: Three I see here. MS. MESIANO: Three in the front and one in each back building. MR. ROMANELLI: One in each back building. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we urge the public that are interested in this to, you know, page through this, we realize that this is very quickly, you know, take a look at it and a situation which is a presence that you have to look at, but it's an ongoing -- MRS. MESIANO: It's a work in progress. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a work in progress and it's ongoing. At the culmination of the hearing, you know, we're going to again say that we have not gotten the SEQRA approved yet by the Planning Board so that may even -- we may have a quick final hearing on this sometime in the future or we may do something else based upon this, but we urge you to look at this plan and corament on it, if you're so inclined. So we'll take a four- or five-minute recess while you're doing that comfortable looking at it, not Mesiano, but the public. so you're you Ms. MS. MESIANO: I'll say, too, if anyone has questions I'd be happy to answer them. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTran$criptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you stand there then and do that? MS. MESIANO: Okay. I'd be happy to answer, if anyone has a question about the plans, I'd be happy to explain or clarify. BOARD ASST.: them. MS. MESIANO: MEMBER SIMON: BOARD ASST.: break. AUDIENCE MEMBER: record. After they've reviewed During the break. During the break. Well, when we return from We want them on the CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: on the record. BOARD ASST.: Yeah. Yes, we want them Also I just want to mention we just received this at 12:30 today from Mrs. Genovese. So that's a copy for your file. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: in mind -- what, go ahead? BOARD ASST.: No, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: to take a recess for about Okay, bearing that You go ahead. I'll make a motion four and a half Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 178 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 minutes. MEMBER OLIVA: So moved. (OFF THE RECORD) to CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Motion reconvene. MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Mesiano, if you would, during the presentation, it doesn't have to be immediately at this exact second, reiterate that -- we have everything down there, I have to get those up. Thank you. Thank you very much. Could you reiterate again the situation of the difference between the original application and this one with the changes that were made so that we -- MRS. MESIANO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- can again ponder upon those changes? MRS. MESIANO: Yes. My name is Catherine Mesiano on behalf of Romanelli Realty. The most recently submitted site plan, which I believe was submitted on 3/10 and is dated 3/3/09, shows some modifications made pursuant to the Board's reactions to our initial submission. The first modification PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 consists of, the first modification I'll mention is with respect to the setback of the front building to the main road. Under the Code, I believe we're required a 100-foot setback; am I correct? However, whether it be 100 or some other number, the Code goes on to say that relief is granted if you can demonstrate the setbacks of buildings within 300 feet. Very roughly stated, I won't go into the decimals and the tenths, but very roughly stated those measurements were taken, the calculations done. We could have set this building back at about 63 feet from the front lot line; however, we have now shown it at 76 feet. The building originally submitted, or the plan originally submitted, for building %1 was for a building that was 100 feet in width. We've reduced that by 25 percent. We're now proposing a 75-foot structure that would have the potential to house three units. Our other principle change is that building %3 has been, it's location has been modified and it is now setback 75 feet off of the rear lot line, which is a compliant setback. So we've PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 eliminated the number of variances requested and we have eliminated the extent of the variances requested with regard to setback and SO on. Do you have questions before I go any farther? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we'll listen to your presentation. MRS. MESIANO: Okay. Again, I've reviewed the Code that pertains to this many times. I've heard the comments that the neighbors have made and I've heard some of the comments that have been made in general by this Board and other Boards and I just want to make several statements that pertain to this. First of all, when we look at the Code for limited business district, it clearly states and I'll paraphrase, I don't need to read everything, the purpose is to provide an opportunity to accommodate limited business outside of a hamlet central business area or business corridor. The Town is concerned with the character of the area and trying to maintain the rural character and I think I should stress that character is more of what PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 it is much more so than rural in and of itself because this community, this area in general has made a transition from 25 or 30 years ago from a very rural community to a rural appearing community because, even though you have agriculture and you have farm stands and you have wineries, these are not little homegrown businesses, these are big business. These are multi-million dollar ventures and while from the road they may appear rural in character they are anything but rural when it comes to their bottom line. So while you don't have the appearance of Route 110 in Farmingdale for example or Melville, you certainly aren't dealing with a small hometown operation, you're dealing with big business and at the same time by reaping the rewards of those big businesses in the dollars that your tourists and people who avail themselves of these companies spend trying to maintain the character. So I think its being rural is something that's something that's overlooked. It's not really, in my mind, it's not rural anymore that a rural character, it's certainly big business. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 I would like to continue, you're concerned about design features and so on. Well we're attempting to present plans to the Board that whose appearance is in keeping with other structures in the area. I think if you looked a little west of this property on the north side of the Main Road where the new Bridgehampton Bank is and the doctor's office in that vicinity, there are some newer buildings that are attractive and they have a rural character. They're certainly not rural in nature, but their character is the comfortable look that I think this Town is trying to preserve. You're talking about uses, existing and future uses not to detract from surrounding uses and I think it's necessary to point out that this, it's been said, at the risk of repeating myself, this is a limited business property; however, when one buys a residential property that abuts business property one has to expect that if that property is vacant or nothing is happening on that piece of property, one has to expect that there is the possibility in the future something may be PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 183 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 done with that property that's as of right under the existing Code. It's a buyer beware issue. If one is so fortunate to purchase a piece of property where nothing occurs for years and years and we have the status quo, well we're lucky if we enjoy a view, if we enjoy some kind of a scenic vista, we're lucky. We don't get to own those things, Those are gifts and those are things that we can appreciate for as long as we can enjoy them, but we cannot expect to sacrifice another person's property rights for yet another's ability to enjoy a vista or the scenery strictly because well I've always had that view and I want to maintain it. I think that the underlying tenet of property rights, the rights inherent in the ownership of property should be kept in sight. You talk about the uses looking to generate low amounts of traffic. Well, if you look further down in the section of the Code under limited business and you look at the use regulations and the permitted uses, I would say that Mr. Romanelli's proposed use of this property which, as we discussed earlier, would PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 have a -- we're looking at a, did we say, a six-unit, six potential tenants, let's say, and if we have six potential tenants and they're contractors of various types under the permitted types of functions in the Code, each would have maybe two or three employees during good times. During these times, they're going out of business, but each may have two or three employees. So if we have six or seven tenants who have two or three employees, we're talking about maybe 25 vehicles twice a day Monday through Friday, typically. Whereas if we looked at the permitted uses and we looked at for example funeral homes, well we know that we can have hundreds of cars on any given day twice a day late at night. You know, people complain about oh, I hear the doors slamming and, you know, this, that and the next thing, but you think about the intensity of the permitted uses. If you were to look at a professional office, it may or may not. A funeral home you certainly could have much more traffic. Restaurants, you could certainly expect to have far more traffic. If one were to put a winery in this location, Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 185 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 which is a permitted use, you might not have that traffic everyday, but it's right along winery row and you would certainly be looking an intensity of traffic much greater than what we envision this project to generate at its completion. If you look further into the Code, it talks about uses permitted by special exception of this Board. Clearly, this use that Mr. Romanelli proposes was contemplated since it's clearly listed as a use permitted by special exception. It's not a use that's been designated strictly to an industrial area. It was certainly contemplated as was an antique shop, an arts and crafts shop and a gallery. So it's not as though this was something very creative that we came up with and said, well, gee, let's run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. It's clearly a use that was contemplated in the formulation of this Code albeit a permitted use a special permit use, but it was considered. Another point that I want to make because we talk about the size of the property and this property, the zoning calls for an 80,000 PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 square foot lot, but we do have this pre- existing parcel. There is a provision in this section of the Code that allows the Planning Board to grant a waiver for a lot as small as 40,000 square feet. Now, we haven't gone that route yet, we haven't gotten that far into it with the Planning Board because we're sort of log jammed with a chicken/egg situation which we're trying to overcome with the SEQRA determination, but the Code does say that with a special exception or a special waiver from the Planning Board a 40,000 square foot lot could be allowed. We have in excess of 60,000 square feet. Okay, we've talked about the average setbacks and the relief that we could enjoy from that and I will just fortify, I believe I said 100 feet and the Code does say structures shall be set back at least 100 feet and then (B) of that section goes on to say except where you can demonstrate adjacent parcels are less. So I think with respect to those items, I have a clear picture of where we're going. A couple of other items that should be mentioned, historically there were seven PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 187 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 buildings on this property. There are now four buildings on this property. We're proposing to put three buildings on the property. We didn't set out to play games with the buildings that were there and try to fix them, raise them, bump them out a little bit and say well, they're pre-existing we're just using what's there. We didn't go that route, we didn't want to even attempt that type of a scenario. a plan and this plan in one building, but We were forthcoming with could easily be executed I think that one building would be in contravention of all of the intentions of this section of the Code. How would one come up with a building of that many square feet? 20 percent is allowed of that 63, so that's in excess of 12,000 square feet in a single building and I do not, I want to make this very clear, I do not put that out as a threat in any way because Mr. Romanelli does not want to build one large building with the burden of trying to make it appear rural in character. The campus style plan of this property does help it retain that flavor. Like I said, there were seven Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 188 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 buildings, there are now four buildings. We're looking for three buildings. We meet all of our parking requirements. We do not exceed the lot coverage requirements. We do not exceed height requirements. MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER WEISMAN: May I just follow up -- Yes. -- to one of the things The property is 63,338 you said? A question. square feet. MRS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, the Code allows one use per 80,000 square feet. MRS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: The interpretation is that we have three buildings with three distinct uses on a substandard lot size, which would actually produce a 221 percent relaxation of the Code requirement in terms of a variance. How do you address that? MRS. MESIANO: How do I address that? My first response is what constitutes a use? If this were one building it would be considered a building with multiple tenants and that one building would constitute a use. I realize PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 189 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that there are three structures that are proposed that are not joined by any structural manner; however, the final outcome is the same as whether it would be one building or three separate buildings because the use is as a contractor's yard. The use is not as a plumber and a woodworker and an electrician and a whatever, the use is as a contractor's yard. MEMBER WEISMAN: But Cathy, you still have a 63,000-square-foot lot. MRS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: One building for a contractor's yard is supposed to be on 80,000 square feet. MRS. MESIANO: Well, I understand that, but this is a preexisting lot. MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand that, too, but the intensity of use being proposed -- MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the three buildings - MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which constitutes three uses on a 63,000-square-foot lot when Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 190 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 80,000 per building is required, is absolutely huge. Now, I grant you that the building is a permitted use by special permit, without a doubt, that is perfectly understood. MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: The part you didn't mention in terms of character of the neighborhood was residential and rural. MRS. MESIANO: Okay. Yes, I did try to - MEMBER WEISMAN: And there are surrounding properties that are residential and this -- MRS. MESIANO: That's right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and this -- the intent of the purpose of this Article of this Code is to -- the additional uses much generate low amounts of traffic and be designed to protect the residential and rural character of the area. MRS. MESIANO: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you address the residential nature? MRS. MESIANO: How do I address the residential nature? Okay, any of the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 191 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 residential property would, of course, be screened from this by the buffering that's required under the Code. The buildings are not two-story, they're not high obtrusive buildings. We're not proposing any noxious uses and, as I said earlier, when one buys residential property that is adjacent to business zoned property one has to assume the risk of that knowing that there's a chance that there could be, is/could be commercial activity on that parcel. I don't think the burden is clearly on the owner of the LB property when the buyer beware standard should be applied to anyone purchasing residential property. If you know that you're adjacent to commercial property then you have to know that there's, if it isn't already there, there's a potential for something else other than a house to be there in the future. MEMBER SIMON: Can I try a slightly different approach? MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just follow up and then I'll stop and others can (inaudible questions for later. How far along in the SEQRA process are PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 you with the Planning Board? MRS. MESIANO: The Planning Board sent this out to Nelson and Pope last week and a young lady from Nelson and Pope was at the property yesterday. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so clearly, you know, traffic impacts and so on are best evaluated by SEQRA review. MRS. MESIANO: Absolutely. MEMBER WEISMAN: Which you're undergoing. MRS. MESIANO: Absolutely. MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know -- the Planning Board did send, and I know you have a copy, comments to the Board of Appeals on October 22nd of last year. MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: Requesting that we consider the traffic generated from the proposed use as well as the proposed design features that will impact the surrounding residential properties and rural character of the area. The conclusion was, their cormments to us, which I want to just mention for the record, in case you or anyone else would like to address them, was that, number one, the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 intent of the limited business zoning district is not being met by the proposed intensive commercial use of the property, not the use, but the intensive use. Two, the subject property is substandard in size. Three, the application is for new construction that should be designed to fit the lot size. Four, the proposed project requires substantial area variances and any hardships claimed are self- created. You already addressed that you've eliminated some of those variances and, number five, the applicant can easily comply with the Code zoning and bulk schedule requirements thereby eliminating the need for variances. You would, of course, still need a special permit for the contractor's yard. So I'll just leave it at that for the moment if you want reply or -- MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER SIMON: I'll wait. I'll wait. Okay. I would approach this differently. Under the reading of the Code that you suggest and probably correct me, the King Kullen Shopping Center is one use; right, cause it's one building with (inaudible) it's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 all commercial use. mean by use, right? MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER SIMON: I mean, that's what you Yes, um-hmm. Okay, now if King Kullen were totally wiped out by a fire and was going to be replaced, and the -- they decided that instead of having one building they did it with three buildings; would it still be one use with three buildings? That's what we're talking about here. MRS. MESIANO: Yes and I -- not having a chance to look at it from that perspective earlier and really mull it -- MEMBER SIMON: Right, I know. It's a hypothetical. MRS. MESIANO: -- over, I would have to say because the intent of the tenancy, the intent of the businesses that are conducted in here, whether there units are joined structurally or they're separated by five feet, ten feet, twenty feet, whatever the number may be, the "use" is the same because in a shopping center everyone goes to the shopping center. MEMBER SIMON: It's commercial use. It's Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 an over -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the same use and (inaudible) -- MEMBER SIMON: But it is -- I mean, it's commercial. What I'm saying is the notion of use that we operate -- MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER SIMON: notion of shopping. Yes, right. -- is as broad as the Shopping is a use even if there are many, many businesses. MRS. MESIANO: Right. MEMBER SIMON: And so in other words, the word use doesn't mean anything. Residence is a use because you could have 50 houses, that's all the same use. So that means that the notion of use really kind of drops out, what then you have to deal with is the question of buildings, numbers of buildings and that if you take the analogy of residential then numbers of buildings matter and here you got a problem of three buildings, forget about use, three buildings, which require 80,000 square feet each. You're going to have three buildings in 62,000 -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 63,000. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: What? Three buildings in 63,000. So whether you do it by (inaudible) the notion of use, you've still got a problem. Then you, if you forget about that, you still have a problem of three buildings where only one is supposed to be. I mention these things because together these kinds of considerations seem to add up to the rather general qualitative conclusion, which we hear from the critics, is this is a whole new ballgame. Putting up multiple buildings on a lot which isn't big enough for multiple buildings much less the question of whether it's use or not or whether how broadly we define use. I think this is a challenge and it's a challenge that very well perhaps be met, but it needs to be met, I believe. MRS. MESIANO: Okay, I need to -- what I'd like to respond is that although this is a 63,000 foot preexisting parcel in a zone that requires an 80,000 square foot -- MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me. Have you ever seen a non-preexisting parcel? MRS. MESIANO: Yes, actually. MEMBER SIMON: I mean it's a -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MESIANO: debate that point? Yes, actually. Okay. Yes, actually. Shall we In this instance, granted we have a 63,000-square-foot parcel in a zone that would otherwise require an 80,000-square-foot lot. The bulk requirements under the 80,000-square- foot zone requirements are met with the exception of the front setback, but I think I've addressed that and I've crossed that off the list. I don't have to meet the 100 feet, I can be as close as 72 -- 62 or 63 feet, that's the one that's gone away. Our parking, we meet all parking requirements even though this lot is 63,000 square feet. Under the zoning Code, particular types of a use is assigned so many parking spaces per square foot. Well, this calculation has been done. We have ample parking for the square footage that's proposed. Whether the square footage is one continuous structure or three smaller structures, we've still accomplished these things. The only area where we have been PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 unable to satisfy the requirements under the bulk schedule is the 20-foot setback and the width of the front building bringing it down from 100 to 75 where 60 is required, I think is a substantial concession especially considering it's not just a concession in the number of lineal feet fronting on the Main Road, it's a concession in the profitability aspect of the project because I know they're trying to make significant changes, but we still are a Capitalist society; making money is still okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: I have absolutely no disagreement with that, but the justification for 221 percent variance to create an economic yield on this substandard property is without precedent. Nowhere in our reasons for findings do we have economic profit. If the property was purchased in order to realize a certain amount of profit and the yield has to be that substantial to do so, it was probably the wrong property to purchase because how do we justify a 221 percent variance. MRS. MESIANO: I'll go back to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you do that? PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MESIANO: MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. ROMANELLI: I'll go back to 280-42. I'm on the record, right? Yeah, sure. Can I use this mike? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MR. ROMANELLI: go ahead. MRS. MESIANO: You are John -- John Romanelli, but Cathy Okay, I just want to respond to that by saying that the Code allows for a minimum of 40,000 square feet when single and separate ownership since 1989 can be established. I had the title work done, I can establish that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but that would be of the Planning Board, not the Zoning a waiver Board. MRS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: And that has to do with subdividing. Okay, that has to do with -- MRS. MESIANO: Subdividing? MEMBER WEISMAN: -- yield. Well, the 40,000 is a waiver of the 80,000 square foot in terms of site planning, site plan approval. MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be for one Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 '16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 use and we are still talking about -- instead of 80,000 for a building we're talking 40,000 for a building. Okay, that's still not 221 percent even if -- and it's not something we can grant either. I mean you might discuss that with the Planning Board, but the Zoning Board has no jurisdiction over that waiver. So for us we have to try to figure what more than 200 percent variance looks like. MR. ROMANELLI: I think you're looking at the numbers wrong and I don't use economics as a reason for any of it. The economics are my problem, I agree with you there. The -- I guess where my frustration comes with this is I look at uses that are allowed, which is to say a restaurant, a winery. If they were one use, if it was a one use building and they were going to make the two back buildings accessory uses those buildings could be there. I could have that same square footage, you could have more traffic, you could have more impact on weekends, holidays, that kind of thing. I look at this project as a square footage and maybe that's where I'm going wrong. I'm looking at it as square footage of PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 what would be allowed on my lot coverage on a substandard lot of 63,000 square feet, what's my lot coverage going to allow me to do and that's the approach I took on it. So maybe I'm looking the numbers differently, I should work on more of this 200 percent variance that you're looking at. I say my lot coverage is my lot coverage. I took, originally took the first approach of one big building that handled my lot coverage, handled my parking, handled my drainage, and did everything that was required of me. I looked at it, in all honesty, as an ugly project. You know, I went back and said let's keep the character of the neighborhood, the look of the street. Of course, I came in originally with 100 feet planned on the front road. After hearing everyone's complaints I went back, I remeasured and said alright, you know what, 100 feet might be too big of a building for that location, but I still took everything down as my lot coverage. So I take this approach of this variance of how do you make this justification? Well, the justification is one building could go -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 202 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 could cover the same square footage I'm proposing in an ugly sort of format in my mind. It would be a long narrow building, entrances on the side. Neighbors would have entrances they would have to see. Coming east or west, you would see the side of the building cause the property would make it to be deep onto the piece. So east and west you would now see visual impact of whatever was going to be there, whether it be a winery, whether it be a restaurant, whether it be a contractor's yard, whatever this is allowed in this zone. So the original approach and design was to go with the character, take my lot coverage, which I'm allowed I'm under it, just for the record I'm under the lot coverage, break this property up into three separate buildings. If you know the design of the property, it's narrow in the front, it opens up in the back. The two buildings were moved towards the back to get away from the road to open it up and get it away from visual impact from the street. We know we had a variance on that rear property line where we were very PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 203 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 close to the neighbors in the back who are opposed to the project. So, okay, so how did we do that, so we turned the building a quarter of a turn gave 75 feet off the back property line and let it be -- I'm not sure of the exact numbers but if this was a one-use project and that garage in the back was going to be built as an accessory use I believe the accessory building could be 25 feet from the property line, I think is the number, so by asking for a principle use I'm going to make it 75 feet from the property line. So that rear neighbor is really gaining 50 feet of buffer from a building because I'm asking for a principle use. So to me that's a benefit to them, okay. By shortening the building we softened the look of what the Main Road is going to look like and how big this building is going to be. You know, we're trying to keep the porches in the front and the big garages in the back. Okay, that was the whole -- that was -- really the whole visual impact was to soften the blow from the street east and west, so again how do we come up with this whole justification for 200 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 percent lot coverage and -- by lot coverage, by what does one building allow me to do and how many square feet of building can I have on my substandard lot of 63,000 square feet and then break that up into three smaller buildings so it's not so grand. That's how I justify it. Again, and I want to bring up again that back building that is now 75 feet off. If I bring this project back as a one-use project I'm asking for an accessory building. Okay, I come back and say, if I don't get it as a three principles, then I'm coming back and saying okay, give me one use. I'm probably going to keep the same plan turning those other buildings into accessory use buildings and they become 20 feet of the back property line. You know, I'm looking at the best case scenario for everybody. MEMBER WEISMAN: What do you use the accessory buildings for? MR. ROMANELLI: Accessory to the front use. You know, and let's be honest, I'm trying to be really a straightforward approach on this in the Town. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 205 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. No I -- MR. ROMANELLI: I could, you know, I could say they're accessory uses, take over the front building and rent the back out and who would know the different five years from now. AUDIENCE MEMBERS: We would. MR. ROMANELLI: Right and then the Code Enforcement -- MEMBER WEISMAN: The neighbors will. MR. ROMANELLI: They would know and the Code Enforcement is going to come and now you have to justify it turns into a battle and back and forth, right? So we're really taking the approach of let's avoid that conflict. Let's look at what common sense -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You would never do that. You're an upstanding, well-respected businessman in the community. MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER WEISMAN: that. MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER WEISMAN: that. Right. That's correct. And you wouldn't do Right, but -- And you wouldn't do Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. ROMANELLI: I'm -- my thought process was really common sense on the neighbors, on the surrounding neighbors. To minimize really what is there and what could be there. MEMBER SIMON: on your position -- MR. ROMANELLI: sympathy. MEMBER SIMON: MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I'm very sympathetic I don't need the -- is reasonable. I just need your vote. I know. But I guess the question is, what exactly are you going to invite us to vote for that we could live with and here's the problem. If the Town Code were amended in such a way that a project such as you're envisioning were allowable in that LB zone -- is it LI? MEMBER OLIVA: LB. MEMBER SIMON: LB zone and that maybe the layout was multiple buildings or one huge building, for the law maybe that wouldn't made any difference, but the big question is and I think this is it, is your neighbors don't want anything as grand as that. They don't want another King Kullen Shopping Center in their PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 midst. MR. ROMANELLI: Right. MEMBER SIMON: And what you're trying to do is to make it look as little like a King Kullen Shopping Center as you possibly can and to try to get by the relevant Boards. I don't know -- there are a lot of balls that are being held in the air at this time. Under what description are we going to have a project like this, which many people in the area aren't very happy with and (inaudible) it or dividing it from one building or to many buildings whether that does it or not, I don't know, but it's a mess. MR. ROMANELLI: There's not really -- listen, there's three variances. The one for the front building 75 feet over 60, right? The other variance is for 20 feet on the one building on the west rear side. I think we're 20 feet from the property line. That'd be it. MEMBER SIMON: No -- MR. ROMANELLI: And then the contractor's yard special exception, okay, which I don't think is out of the realm. MEMBER SIMON: Wait. What about the size Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 of the buildings? MR. ROMANELLI: The buildings I'm under lot coverage. I guess your issue is how do you justify three buildings versus one. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's where you're not MEMBER SIMON: There's where the 220 percent variance comes in. MEMBER WEISMAN: than lot coverage. MR. ROMANELLI: Yes. It's different Okay, so I like I said, let's spin common sense on it push those buildings together, do I fit the lot coverage; yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: We're not lot coverage, that's -- MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. ROMANELLI: to put logic on it. MEMBER SIMON: MR. ROMANELLI: what you're saying, and say let's add them up and talking about It's not lot coverage. -- the same -- But that's where you need Yeah, but it's not -- No, no. I understand but I'm saying maybe we need to put logic on it and not say -- MEMBER SIMON: But logic is always going Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 to be constrained by the law. I mean logic may give you a recipe for writing new laws, but as a Board that's what we're not doing. MR. ROMANELLI: There you go. There you go. MEMBER WEISMAN: We can't write new law here, you realize. If something is wrong, you know who you have to go talk to. I want to ask for a point of clarification on the Notice of Disapproval which says proposed building #2 at 75 feet -- MEMBER OLIVA: 75 feet from the rear property line, number 4. MRS. MESIANO: Number 5? MEMBER OLIVA: 4. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, where is my -- Yeah, number 4, variance for proposed building #2 at less than 75 feet from the rear property line, alright it's 40 feet that was what it was. BOARD ASST.: It was 40, now it's 75? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, not that one. Not that one. Building #3. I'm looking for the side yard (inaudible) -- BOARD ASST.: The side yard #3. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right -- no that's on PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 210 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that building. Building %2 is notice -- MEMBER OLIVA: 75 feet from the rear property line. MEMBER WEISMAN: I thought there was something that said -- MEMBER SIMON: I think there were two is what the trouble was. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it is. No, no, I just looking -- I just have to study this cause there's some things that are the same as before and I'm looking for -- MR. ROMANELLI: The one building classified as building #2, the one on the rear, the west one really hasn't changed from the original submission. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it hasn't changed. Yeah, it's the one -- I see. BOARD ASST.: Building #2 still needs a rear yard variance. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but it says here, variance for the proposed building #3 at less than 20 feet from the side lot line -- BOARD ASST.: Originally, when they applied, the new plan shows it different. MEMBER WEISMAN: Shows it at 20. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 BOARD ASST.: So now he -- MEMBER WEISMAN: So you need an amended Notice or not, I don't know. In other words, I don't understand why point number 5 is the way it is because your site plan shows it a 20-foot side yard -- BOARD ASST.: No, it says the plan has been amended and they did not obtain a Notice of Disapproval. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. That's all I'm asking. I just -- so it's not consistent. BOARD ASST.: Right, exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: The Notice is not consistent with the site plan. BOARD ASST.: Exactly. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I wanted to point out. Cathy, do you see what I'm talking about? Building 93 side yard setback at 20 feet, which is conforming. MR. ROMANELLI: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, if it's a new Notice it still calls it out as nonconforming -- as less than -- MR. ROMANELLI: As nonconforming. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- 20 feet. BOARD ASST.: I think I know what happened. They did submit the amended plans to the Building Department for -- MR. ROMANELLI: Right, you're right. We submitted the (inaudible) plan going -- MEMBER WEISMAN: So I'm pointing that out so you can do that just, you know, get it up to date cause -- BOARD ASST.: paperwork. MEMBER WEISMAN: easier. MR. ROMANELLI: out cause it's one Just to clean up the -- it makes life a lot I'm glad that was pointed less variance to get. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Yes, it is. MEMBER SIMON: This is a constructive suggestion, if it works. Meaning that you would like it if it works in order to get more than -- in order to satisfy the one use for 80,000 square feet, then you have to call the whole thing one use. Everything there is one use and then would you be suggesting that maybe we should interpret the Code as saying that the one use doesn't preclude having PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 multiple buildings all that have the same use. MRS. MESIANO: That is the point I was trying to make. MEMBER SIMON: Is it? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, use is not defined by activity. MEMBER SIMON: Use has got to be defined by something. MEMBER WEISMAN: Use is defined by activity relative to what special exception will allow. You know, in other words, you can't use it for a disco, okay, but -- MEMBER SIMON: For an entertainment center it has six discos. MEMBER WEISMAN: In the case of the way it's -- that's the Mallen decision, that's a different thing. In the case of a -- this situation, the Notice has been determined based upon the size and the number of buildings relative to the size of standard lot. It isn't the activities taking place within them say -- MEMBER SIMON: Except for number 2, which says it can only be one use. MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand that, but Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 I'm saying -- MRS. MESIANO: use. MEMBER SIMON: what I'm saying. The Code does not define a Yeah, exactly. That's MEMBER WEISMAN: But those Codes are written differently than for a commercial property in a limited business. Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 use. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the square footage that is defining the use. MEMBER SIMON: No. MRS. MESIANO: It only defines use with respect to square footage, but it doesn't lay out clearly what constitutes a use. MEMBER SIMON: You're absolutely correct. MRS. MESIANO: And I think that's the point I've been trying to make -- MEMBER SIMON: Okay. MRS. MESIANO: -- is that we disagree on what a "use" is. I'm saying a shopping center is a use. When you go to the Rite Aid, you go to the dry cleaners -- BOARD ASST.: Well, that's retail. MEMBER SIMON: I know that's a retail 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MESIANO: Right, I'm not even referring to the Code, I'm just referring to the conceptual aspect of the way the neighborhood, the community uses a facility and in this -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail we can do is interpret it based upon the Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval. Now we can overturn it -- MEMBER SIMON: too. MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MESIANO: We can interpret the Code, We can interpret -- That's -- I think that is -- now that we've striped away a lot of the superfluous matters and we've gotten to the essence of the question, it boils down to the same stumbling block that we've come to is I'm saying, I've been saying this is a use, it's a contractor's yard and whether a contractor uses all the space for his entire operation or the electrician, the plumber or whatever, uses the use for their individual operations the "use" of the property is one classification and I studied the Code, I dug through the Code extensively looking for something that would Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 tell me what is a use. MEMBER SIMON: It doesn't tell you. MRS. MESIANO: It doesn't tell you, so I think what I'm asking you for is for you to tell me what constitutes a use. MEMBER WEISMAN: I will say this about -- MEMBER SIMON: Let Linda (inaudible). BOARD ASST.: This is one other thing, I asked the Building Department when they originally wrote your disapproval how they determine it to be three uses when there are three buildings. Are they principle buildings or are they three separate uses and the answer that was given to me was because there are different tenants, they are separate businesses and, therefore, separate uses. MEMBER SIMON: arbitrary -- MRS. MESIANO: BOARD ASST.: Yes. That's a rather That's a very -- I'm just telling you what their answer is. So -- and I don't think we have a formal interpretation -- MRS. MESIANO: Right. Yes, that's -- BOARD ASST.: -- of what a use is anywhere. PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MESIANO: presumptive. MEMBER SIMON: BOARD ASST.: speak for himself. MEMBER SIMON: That's arbitrary and We could -- Well, he's not here to Maybe a role that we could play, what we could talk about, is namely since the Code is at best unclear about what counts as a use and most of the things that have been suggested don't really -- use does not have to do with land. Use has to do with use. So we can, if that's true, then we could conceivably interpret the word use in the Code in a way that gets rid of that problem. MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute. MR. ROMANELLI: Don't make any more problems. MEMBER WEISMAN: The issue before us is not whether it's three different kinds of activities, okay, it's all one type of activity -- MEMBER SIMON: Use, yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: The Code was written to avoid intense impacts. It's intensity of use that we're talking about. When you have three PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 buildings on a substandard lot, which is so over the top in terms of the size of the variance as written by Code and interpreted by the Building Inspector, that's a big problem. The Code was really written to avoid intense impacts. No one here is disputing the fact that a contractor's yard is a permitted use by special exception. If the intensity of activity on that property -- MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but intensity has nothing to do with multiple uses. It could be MEMBER WEISMAN: But we aren't arguing about multiple uses. MEMBER SIMON: But then where does the intensity come in? MEMBER WEISMAN: It's by virtue of the size of the building and the size of the lot, that is how intensity is handled. It's impacts, it's the principle of -- planning principle. MEMBER SIMON: But if it were a principle use would that capture it? If it really were a building -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It would still need a Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 219 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 variance because if you're proposing that many is okay square feet, even if the lot coverage MR. ROMANELLI: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- then what you're going to have is a large building on a small substandard lot and it's still going to be less than 80,000 square feet. You're still going to need a variance. MEMBER SIMON: You can't have it both ways. MR. ROMANELLI: I need a variance for -- to have a building on a substandard lot? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MR. ROMANELLI: Okay, so I need a variance for a building on a substandard lot. MEMBER WEISMAN: big for the lot. MR. ROMANELLI: A building that's too Okay, basically that's what it's for. So now let me just run this by you. If one building was built that met all front yard, side yard, back yard setbacks needed no variances on any of those matters, where does that leave us? Does that leave us with a building still too big? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh, yeah. MR. ROMANELLI: And though your lot coverage would be under the minimum lot coverage allowed by the Town? MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER OLIVA: MRS. MESIANO: MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah. That's right. Then why -- So you can regulate the size of the building by the substandard lot rules -- MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. MESIANO: MR. ROMANELLI: MRS. MESIANO: Yeah. Then why does not the -- Then can we? -- lot creation Code 220 come A lot preexisting MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. MRS. MESIANO: And we can demonstrate Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 preexisting -- a nonconforming, lot. into play, the lot merger and creation? is a piece of property is recognized as a legal lot and there are several tests that set that forth and we can provide a single and separate search that shows this property as a single and separate lot into the 20s and further back. It is a, if you will, a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that it is a nonconforming preexisting lot and I think, at this point, I have some confusion as to why this lot isn't recognized as a legal lot. lot. MEMBER WEISMAN: It is MEMBER SIMON: It is a MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course recognized. legal lot. it's a legal MEMBER SIMON: It's just what the constraints are. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just for the zoning. MR. ROMANELLI: a question of substandard I'm a little confused on Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 because that section says you need one use of the Code, the 280-24A per 80,000 square feet, the way it's been interpreted over the years while I've been here is that you're allowed one use for a lot that's legal single and separate up to a size Can I just -- Yes. Okay, BOARD ASST.: MEMBER SIMON: BOARD ASST.: MRS. MESIANO: It's substandard for the zoning, yes, but I applied all of the requirements of the zoning -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 of 80,000 square feet. MRS. MESIANO: Up to. BOARD ASST.: So your lot is legal for up to 80,000 square feet for one use. MRS. MESIANO: Okay. BOARD ASST.: So if you have a 50,000 square feet lot, you're allowed one use without a variance. MRS. MESIANO: Right. BOARD ASST.: So once you go over that, the 80,000 per use kicks in. MRS. MESIANO: So this brings us right back to our prior discussion because we're saying what constitutes a use if -- MR. ROMANELLI: asking for one use. MRS. MESIANO: MR. ROMANELLI: We have one use, we're -- if we rented -- Up to 80,000 square feet MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but how many square feet is the use actually occupying? MRS. MESIANO: Suppose one company came in and said I'll take the whole thing? That's one use. BOARD ASST.: Well, that's what I'm PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 223 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 saying, the Building Department has been interpreting it differently over the years and no one has asked the Zoning Board for an interpretation on MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MESIANO: BOARD ASST.: MEMBER SIMON: it. Right. So -- That's why we're here. So I think -- intensity, it's not a matter of intensity per use. If you had six obnoxious uses, that would be very intense. So it's not the number of uses that triggers the intensity problem, it has to do with the size of the enterprise and that's supposed to be regulated by the square footage MR. ROMANELLI: Or lot coverage. MEMBER SIMON: Not lot coverage, but actually -- MRS. MESIANO: In this case -- MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, okay. MRS. MESIANO: -- it's regulated because we're under the lot coverage that's the 20 percent lot coverage. We're under that, we meet all of the bulk requirements except for the 40-foot setback from the rear lot line of Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 building %2 and the width of building %1. So I think after all is said and done we've come back around to the same point. What constitutes a use? So I'm hearing that if one tenant occupied the property that wouldn't be a problem because it's one use; however, if four tenants occupied the property, it would be considered multiple uses; am I hearing that correctly? MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MESIANO: MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MESIANO: I'm puzzled about that -- And I know, again -- -- actually. I know, again, going back to the Building Department, but forgive me for saying so, but I could stand at that counter until I got older and grayer and I wouldn't get an affirmative. BOARD ASST.: Well, there's -- MEMBER SIMON: I would just say the Building Department is no better than the Code that they apply. BOARD ASST.: else, too, though. because it abuts a Well, there's In that zone residential concerns that there might be a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 something they wanted, area there were lot of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 intensity of use. So they said 80,000 square feet per use when you require a special exception on vacant land, especially. Okay, it didn't require a special exception. You could, I believe, you're allowed to have a dwelling in a LB zone -- I don't have the Code book. If you have a half-acre lot, you can build on your lot, but once you go into the special exception criteria that's where they tightened up with that 80,000 square feet and also the use of the property, I believe that we don't have anything to say what the activities are and who the one contractor use is for all three buildings. MRS. MESIANO: So then I could put a winery in there or a funeral home that would be a far more intense use with far more traffic generated, music on weekends, parties MEMBER SIMON: Apparently. BOARD ASST.: If that's what the Code says. MRS. MESIANO: So I could do that. BOARD ASST.: The Code could say that. MRS. MESIANO: So I could do that -- Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: questions and then we should see what audience wants to -- MEMBER SIMON: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: See if there's other the Okay. Starting on my left hand side, your right hand side, who would like to speak over here? Say your name for the record, sir. MR. GENOVESE: rear property. please, You know, I appreciate everybody wanting to try to do something good for us since it took me three months to even have John move two oil trucks that were in the way. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had already discussed that, let's move on -- MR. GENOVESE: But the bottom line is, you've got -- you know, I grew up in construction, okay, you've got a construction yard that's going to end up to be a junk yard. That's my problem. So you've got three buildings on this and it's like putting 5 pounds of you-know-what in a 1 pound bag and then you're going to have -- this lot is going PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 Louis Genovese, I own the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 to turn into a junk yard. I mean, I can't understand how the Town could even approve this when I got disapproved of a 10 by 14 shed on two and a half acres of property. I just don't understand it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MR. GENOVESE: to me. Well, I don't -- I It just doesn't make sense CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't understand when you're referring to a junk yard, I've seen other properties that Mr. ROmanelli -- MR. GENOVESE: What happens is these construction companies, these plumbers, whoever is going to come in here -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Inside the building, not outside. MR. GENOVESE: Outside the building behind the building it becomes a junk yard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, inside. Inside. We are putting a restriction on it inside the building only. Only automobiles that are plated or trucks that are plated outside the building. That is it. MR. GENOVESE: Not going to happen. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I'm telling you that's the restriction on it. MR. GENOVESE: It's not going to happen. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's Code Enforcement's property. MR. GENOVESE: Because when I was going to buy this property, that property was vacant and the property to the and I asked the Town, I plus the Town Board -- left of me was vacant asked the Zoning Board CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You didn't ask me. MR. GENOVESE: -- what's going to be in here. It was a different Board, okay, what's going to be -- this is 10 years ago I'm going back. Well the property that Mr. Romanelli wants to develop that's going to be restricted to a grocery store, retail, boutique, nothing in the construction level. That's exactly what it is. If that was told to me 10 years ago, with all due respect to the fine attorney over there, I wouldn't have bought this piece of property because I don't want to hear, I don't want to see construction trucks coming in. I don't want my kids to be around it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir. Sir, we Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 didn't zone the property. another Board. MR. GENOVESE: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. GENOVESE: It was zoned by That's what I'm saying. By the Town Board. No, what I'm saying is I'm answering a question when the attorney said well residents should understand that when they're buying a piece of property it comes with (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. MR. GENOVESE: I understand that and I asked those questions then and that's what I was told. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no doubt that at times property is rezoned. There is no question about that, okay, I don't know if this property has changed its zoning since the implementation of the master plan in 1989. I have no knowledge if it has changed subsequent to 1989 because I can tell you it's when we went from 7 zones to 17 zones, okay, and I suspect it has held that validity since 1989. So I don't know who you spoke to, I'm not questioning who you spoke to, I believe exactly what you're saying, okay, and in 1989 PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 was the last significant update of this Code. It started in '87, we went through the revisions in '88 and it was voted on and put into law in 1989 and that's the story. That's all I can tell you. BOARD ASST.: I believe it was zoned business because '89 also. MR. GENOVESE: I'm just telling you what was told to me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I believe you. No, I understand. MR. GENOVESE: Okay, cause I wouldn't have spent $125,000.00 on a piece of property knowing it was going to turn into a junk yard. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. MR. GENOVESE: Okay? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand and I believe you. MEMBER WEISMAN: The difference is the Code spells out a long list of different kinds of uses that could be done by right, in other words as long as you meet all the setbacks and bulk schedules and lot coverage and so on. They don't have to come before this Board. A contractor's yard is one of the few things Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 that's listed in the Code that can only happen, even if they met all the other requirements, say it was one building and it was less intense use or whatever, they still need a special permit from this Board. MEMBER SIMON: That's what you're arguing against. MEMBER WEISMAN: In other words it's not an automatic given this contractor's yard can go there. It has to come before this Board, the Board has to hear it and grant a special exception for that kind of use. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay? Hold up one second. And if he doesn't live up to that special exception we pull the permit. We have another public hearing and the permit is pulled. It is not an automatic situation. Excuse me. MEMBER SIMON: I think you're actually raising what is a very, very important point, which we haven't really talked about, is the special exception because your objection and I suspect some of the other objections are for that particular kind of use and that speaks directly to the special exception. It may be, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 232 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 if the same building were going to be used to manufacture microelectronics, maybe you would not have that objection, but we would have a - - we did a special exception for a contractor's yard and that's the thing we probably should be talking about. MR. GENOVESE: Yeah, with me, I mean, you know, it would be nice for John to develop that piece of property, but it's what you're going to develop it into. MEMBER SIMON: Well, that's what the special exception debate is all about. Is it MR. GENOVESE: I'm not questioning John developing the property. He could do -- MEMBER SIMON: No, development no. You don't ask a special exception to develop it, but if you develop it as a manufacturing plant, a contractor's yard, a haircut bizarre, whatever it is, that's what we're talking about. Yes, your objection is to the particular use that he has in mind and maybe that is -- maybe that's something that people can at least debate, all be on the same page on what they're debating. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. GENOVESE: residents there. MEMBER SIMON: You're surrounded by all I know. This is an argument for denying the special exception, not because he's there or because he's a businessman, but because of what kind of business he wants to run and we can weigh the pros and cons on this probably good to have input on this because MR. GENOVESE: been other people letters. MEMBER SIMON: and I think it would be a lot of people giving this is the -- I'm sure there would have here, we never got any No, no. That's -- what I'm saying is if it's a special exception it would apply to almost anything. If McDonald's had to have a special exception, for example, the people from all over the Town could express themselves one way or the other because it does affect them. It is the Main Road and at least that's the issue that's really at stake and not the business of multiple uses and lands and setbacks and so forth. It really is, I think, for many people. Maybe not everybody, but for many PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 people the kinds of things that you're describing. If you're alone, then you're probably not going to win, but if enough people feel the way you do and if enough people feel that that doesn't really matter -- MR. GENOVESE: Everybody that lives in my neighborhood feels that way. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we address the issue of why you didn't get a letter? We sat here and we told you that this hearing would be reconvening at this date; therefore, you were not -- you did not -- MR. GENOVESE: Yeah, but then somebody said there was a street sign on the street. There is no street sign on the street. BOARD ASST.: Right, that has nothing to do with (inaudible). GENOVESE: My name is Jeanne I'm Lou's husband (sic) 580 Skunk MRS. Genovese, Lane -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just finish what I was saying? We had a hearing, a prior hearing, and we told you it was going to reconvene on this date. BOARD ASST.: You were present at that PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTran$criptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 hearing. MRS. GENOVESE: I was here, yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is the reason why you didn't get a letter. If we adjourn the hearing without a date then they are -- it necessitates them to send you a letter prior to the hearing. MR. GENOVESE: How about the neighbors that weren't here? BOARD ASST.: They got the first notice. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They got the first notice, they are supposed to follow the procedure. MRS. GENOVESE: Let me just say, I wrote it on the calendar. I was here December 20th, whatever day it was. BOARD ASST.: Right, you were here. MRS. GENOVESE: Okay and, you know, I wrote it on my calendar for March 19th, you know, we never heard anything so I called you guys yesterday and said is it still on or what? Cause I don't know what time and -- BOARD ASST.: That's the right thing to do. MRS. GENOVESE: Well, I did call and they Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 said 12:15 and I said okay, fine. So I got on the phone I called Reno, he's not here. He's a CPA. He's in the city. He's all tied up this time of year. Had he known it was 12:15 today, he would be here. BOARD ASST.: What happened? You called and -- MRS. GENOVESE: I called him after I spoke with you guys. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, well it's a public office. It's in the newspapers. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He can still submit a letter if he wants to. BOARD ASST.: It's timely posted. MRS. GENOVESE: The point is that -- oh, he's going to. MEMBER WEISMAN: You don't have to be here. This is going to be an ongoing process. It's still before the Planning Board also and anybody who has an interest in anything that they want to say about this application can submit it in writing to the Zoning Board office, they don't have to be present. It will become part of the official record. Every Board member here will read it. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (63]) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. GENOVESE: We did. I did submit a letter, but we didn't hear -- MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Other neighbors like your CPA -- MRS. GENOVESE: They are going to. MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine. BOARD ASST.: Pass the word around. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Pass the word around, that's the best thing to do. MEMBER WEISMAN: around so we have -- BOARD ASST.: We you have to do that MRS. GENOVESE: knocking yesterday. MEMBER SIMON: Right, pass the word don't do that for you, on your own. Right. I went door Okay, that's great. That's good. That's being a responsible citizen. Look we are bound by very strict rules about announcement and publication of meetings, but the rules that we're bound by do not include the need to remind people of things which were announced a month ago that they really are still going to occur. MRS. GENOVESE: That is not the issue. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER SIMON: Exactly that is not the issue. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is not the issue. MRS. GENOVESE: I just do want to say before when we were thinking about buying that piece of property we did come down here and it was Scott Russell who was the Tax Assessor then and Bob Scott. We asked them, you know, tax map numbers we needed and so on and so forth and we said what is LB? What is that and what he told us was that would be like putting the Down Home store there and so my husband and I said, alright, you know, it's a north-forky country kind of thing, great. That, you know, that's what we were told and that's what we kind of went by. MR. GENOVESE: Well, what I said to them was a trucking business isn't going to go in there, and he says it's not zoned for that. MEMBER SIMON: Well that's why he goes for a special exception, that's what this hearing is about. Here is the right place. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me explain this to you. I have nothing against either one of PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 those people in their present positions and Scott being the Supervisor -- MRS. GENOVESE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You needed to go to the Building Department and ask that question, okay, because they are the people that would determine -- MR. GENOVESE: I did go to the -- at that time I spoke to Verity. MRS. GENOVESE: Right. MR. GENOVESE: Believe me, I went through the tracks, okay, I know the game. Alright. Before I was going to spend three-quarters of a million dollars building a house I wanted to make sure what was going to be my surroundings and it was told to me. BOARD ASST.: It's best to ask for a copy of the Code so you have it in writing. MRS. GENOVESE: Well, he -- MR. GENOVESE: Well, 10 years later, sure. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but anyway you're in the right place at the right time and this an open discussion. MRS. GENOVESE: Okay. Well, we are Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 240 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 against the project. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. MRS. GENOVESE: This type of project, in our minds, belongs in an industrial area such as Route 48 where there's a lot of other industrial kind of things, okay, and what he's trying to put on this small amount of property that's 220 or whatever percent or whatever it is, is just outrageous. It's just ridiculous. We did not come to the north fork to be looking at, you know, you could put a 6-foot fence and arborvitaes and whatever, but it's going to have to be lit, you know, you're going to have lights, sound, noise, this that and the other thing and it's just not the right project for this location and it is an intense, however you said, on the residents. It's all residential (sic) that live around there and the 20-foot setback, that applies to our property. 20 feet is from here to there. We don't want to be looking, you know -- MEMBER SIMON: Okay, all I can say is it was good that this was listed as not a use of right, but something for a special exception, which is why we're here. It's an open Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 question. MRS. GENOVESE: Right. MEMBER SIMON: Whoever decided to put that -- put this in as a special exception, at least was wise enough not to make it a use as of right. MRS. GENOVESE: Um-hmm. MEMBER SIMON: Otherwise we wouldn't be having any hearings at all on that question. MRS. GENOVESE: Well, the other lady said, I'm sorry I don't know your name, but you said it yourself this -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Member Weisman. MRS. GENOVESE: Okay, this particular project does not belong on this particular piece of property. MEMBER WEISMAN: They have a right by special exception and we may determine to grant that or not -- MRS. GENOVESE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to apply for a contractor's yard according to the zone. MEMBER SIMON: They have a right to apply for a special exception. MRS. GENOVESE: Right. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 242 property. MRS. GENOVESE: MEMBER WEISMAN: different questions. MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Alright, those are two Thank you. MRS. GENOVESE: Well, we just would like to say we invite anyone on this Board or the Town Board to come to our house, come to our property and see what we see from our vantage point. We invite you to come any time you'd like. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is your PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 MEMBER WEISMAN: They have a right to apply for it, okay, and what the Building Inspector has said is that the amount of activity they want with three buildings on a small lot is too much. MRS. GENOVESE: That's what we object to as well. That's why we're here. MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's it in a nutshell. Okay, so one is the use itself. MRS. GENOVESE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: A contractor's yard, the other is how many contractors on that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 243 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 address, ma'am? MRS. GENOVESE: 580 Skunk Lane and we bear the brunt of this project, okay, because we are behind the property and -- BOARD ASST.: house? MS. MILLIGAN: Yes. MRS. GENOVESE: Yes. Breakfast, right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: spot. MS. MILLIGAN: MRS. GENOVESE: Do you have a B & B at your Vintage Bed and That's It was. Well, it was. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: your name for the MS. MILLIGAN: Lane. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: would you like to say? You have record, ma'am. Elaine Milligan, a beautiful It is. to state 530 Skunk 530, okay. What Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 MS. MILLIGAN: I object to the new building. The old buildings were there. I guess they're rather grandfathered in, but not such a small piece of property to have a bigger building on it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 244 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MS. MILLIGAN: And then we don't want to look at all of that all the time. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else? Mr. Bauer? MR. BAUER: Yeah. I just have a couple of questions. Bill Bauer, Cutchogue, 350 Skunk Lane. On that new plan we just got there, by the looks of it, it looks like from what I can see from the architecture, it looks like he's putting a full second story onto the thing. MR. ROMANELLI: I'll clarify that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to use the mike? MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah. On the front building, the back of the building the way it's designed it's going to have a 12-foot door tall enough to get a truck inside the back. The front of it is going to be, you know, for simplification, take a look at Southold Flooring. How the front of the building is a one-story looking building, but behind it, if you look behind it, they got a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 245 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 large building where they can fit trucks inside. So it is technically two-story, I guess you would call it, in the rear where you can get a truck, but the front office area is one story. MR. BAUER: Before what you had, John, on the original plans the building was a little wider and you had just the front and that was it and then the building was going to be flat. The way my property sits, my house is 32 feet higher than grade (inaudible). MR. ROMANELLI: Probably, right. MR. BAUER: So now I'm going to be looking at -- I can look right across the top of that building (inaudible) up on a hill. Now you're sticking this thing up here with a two-story (inaudible) -- now my question is -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Your questions have to be toward the Board. You can't speak to John. MR. BAUER: Alright. If that space is going to be up there, what's he going to use it for? Is there going to be offices up there, is he going to put dental office up there, doctors offices up there? What's going PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 246 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 up there? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there a vaulted ceiling, John, in the back of the building? MR. ROMANELLI: In the back of the building there's a full 12-foot garage door, 12-foot, you know, shop. Again, I tried to say, you know, Southold Flooring even if you sort of look how Cox Lane Development is on the corner of Cox and the North Road. BOARD ASST.: Is there's a second floor then what would you have -- MR. ROMANELLI: No, the second floor is not a second floor. The back of the building could have the height of a second floor, but it's really for truck height. The front of the building is office space. You know, if you look at the drawing we have some peaked roofs, you know, to give it a residential look, not just one big flat roof. We have all different peaks. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what you're saying is the front roof -- MR. ROMANELLI: It's a fagade really. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is a fagade basically hiding that -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 247 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MR. ROMANELLI: Hiding the back big square structure that is going to have, you know, the 12-foot garage doors in the back. You know, again, I think the design -- I sort of took the design from the look of the new Southold Flooring. You know, I look at that when you drive by it to me it doesn't look like a two story building. Take a close look there's a two-story building behind the retail part of the building. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. ROMANELLI: You mean the one up on 48? The one up on 48, right. Yes. Right, a fairly new building. Again, a retail section of it is one story. It's got a lot of peaks and valleys in the roof to make it look taller behind that retail section and you basically don't -- MR. BAUER: (Inaudible). [Not at microphone.] MR. ROMANELLI: No, that's not the plan. It's just how it's drawn with three individual 25-foot long -- MR. BAUER: (Inaudible) to look that way PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: John, of the building being that high the purpose is to put the contractor's trucks in at night? MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah, to get material and trucks inside at night time. Storage at night time. The same reason I have it faced that way so those garages and that building would be hidden from the road. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MR. ROMANELLI: They would come around the back and go in and it wouldn't be seen. You know, the same with the Cox Lane Development, you don't even know what's behind those buildings when you drive by them until you go to the dump and see what's actually behind the buildings. That's what I was looking for and really with the same building in the rear that we moved 75 feet off the property line off of Genovese was the same principle that once we turned it we realized, okay, they're now protected. Yeah, they're going to look at a building, I'm sorry, about that, but it's going to be if a house was there they would look at a house. They will PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 look at the back of a building, but the garage doors and the activity is now on the front of it. So as far as the neighbors, Genovese, they will not see contractor activity. It's now turned 100 percent so everything is in front of the doors. Ail they're going to see is the back of a building and that we can't do much about. I think the Code allows me to do that. BOARD ASST.: I wonder if they were able to look at the revised plans. MR. ROMANELLI: They came up and looked at it. I don't know if they had a chance to, you know, study them or really understand them, but again those were the thought processes in some of the changes that we made to minimize some of the, you know, complaints. MEMBER SIMON: I would like to make a short statement which at least summarizes where I think we are and maybe the rest of us. For me having listened to John and Cathy and so on, is the real issue is the kind of use that they're going to be, not how many, but the kind and there are three possible answers that the Board can give. One, no problem; one PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 250 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 is, no way, and the third is, yes, with certain kinds of constraints limitations on this. I think Mr. but only and Romanelli, Ms. Mesiano have done a very good job of trying to respond to questions about how could this be made more tolerable, but the big thing that's lurking there is the one, yes or no, or yes with, and I think that's the big question. The people who are coming here really have in mind not so much how it's done. Many of them don't like the idea at all. A compromise can possibly be reached where the answer will be yes, provided that a, b, and c and I believe the applicant and his representative are doing a pretty good job of trying to sweeten the pill, if you will, but that doesn't answer the question whether the pill but at least it's working direction. MR. ROMANELLI: That was Thanks for realizing that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is still be swallowed, in the right our attempt. there anybody in the back that would like to speak? Anybody else? MR. ROMANELLI: I would just like one PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 more comment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. MR. ROMANELLI: Just to throw in some history on the property. That has technically been a contractor's yard since like 1929. Mr. Midgley was a carpenter. He ran his carpentry shop out of those buildings, you know, for years until I bought it from him really and made it into a workshop. MEMBER SIMON: Would it be useful to submit a short history of the use of the lot just for our information? MRS. MESIANO: I was because when the question going to offer that came up about the zoning I did pull all of the zoning records and the last time anything happened with respect to this property was 1958. MEMBER SIMON: So a one-page statement about the prior history. BOARD ASST.: 1951 or 19587 MEMBER OLIVA: 58. BOARD ASST.: Alright. MRS. MESIANO: Yes and it's been a business zone. It's always been a business use, but once zoning came into effect it's PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 252 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 been zoned for business use. MEMBER SIMON: But what kind of business, that's part of the history. MRS. MESIANO: Limited business. MEMBER SIMON: What kind of limited business? That's the point. MRS. MESIANO: the time. MEMBER SIMON: Whatever the Code said at No, what has been on the ground. If you're going to build a precedent, you have to -- MRS. MESIANO: I have the Code and I have the history, so rather than shoot from the hip, I'd rather take the time to give you -- MEMBER SIMON: That's what I'm saying I would invite you to do that. MRS. MESIANO: Then I will do that. MEMBER SIMON: With specifics not just say business because whether the business is a boutique or whether it is heavy duty construction matters. MRS. MESIANO: Right because and also I think Mr. Romanelli's point should be at least heard that this particular use, although it hasn't evolved into what we now recognize as a Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 253 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 contractor's yard, has typically been what the property's been used for. Mr. Midgely, Mr. Midgely's father, I think Mr. Midgely can bring us back to the mid-1800s as to how that property has been used. You know, I have COs on the buildings that are there and I think Mr. Midgely would like to speak. I'll get out of his way. MR. MIDGELY: I can give you some history. I'm Bill Midgely, 200 Skunk Lane. I sold the property to John. Mr. Genovese and Mr. Reno both spoke, after I sold the property, that they wanted to buy it. Well, they had a few years cause I -- as the Town prices went up I kept going up in the price. I started at $200,000.00, I ended up getting $335,000.00 so I'm glad they didn't buy it earlier, but in 1920 my father came out of WWI. He was a carpenter, so he had a carpenter shop there and worked out of it. There were two businesses there, at that time, cause my grandfather had a flower business he sold Dahlia bulbs, Gladiola bulbs, Tulip bulbs and seeds. That's what that old cellar is. Prior to that, there were three Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 254 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 businesses there. From around 1840 or '50 there was a blacksmith's shop there, William Shatfield Buckingham, one of my ancestors and Gilbert (Inaudible) Howell, my great- grandfather. William Shatfield had the blacksmith shop, right next to it was my grandfather's general store. That's the old building sitting on that old cellar out back there. I've got the posters from it, gunpowder, soap, stuff of that nature. So it's been used as multiple purpose back then. I was -- I've been a contractor since 1948 and I used it right up until I sold it to John. So I don't know what they're talking about it looking a mess. I had a mess out there quite a few times, yes, cause I had enough storage, fortunately, which a lot of contractors do not have. They have no place to keep their equipment in this town and I did have a mess there at times cause, hey, I'm remodeling and it looked like it was usable, I took it back to the shop and I used it for something. So I did have a lot of stuff there. I cleaned it all up before I sold it to John, so I don't know what they're talking Pu§lieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 255 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 about a messy contractor's yard, that would have been a messy contractor's yard. The buildings there now are getting rather defunct and rather than reinvest and rebuild them all up, I decided I'm getting too darned old, I'm going to sell them. So I did and I don't see any problem with what John's got there. The contractor's in this town they tried to eliminate them working out of their home a few years ago, as you recall. Somehow or another my picture showed up in Newsday on that one and it wasn't very good because it showed the asbestos hovering on my steam pipes in the cellar. The story showed my raggedy electrical system in the house cause that's where my office was in the cellar, but they kind of backed off on that, but some of this is reminiscent of that. When you say (inaudible) contractors. You know, they can't all afford a 80,000 square feet just for storing their stuff or to work out of. If they have a truck, just basically the younger ones just trying to start out, they don't have a heck of a lot to work with. They need someplace to store stuff, electricians, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 masons, all your ones that provide services to your homes and other businesses. They need a place so I think this is a great idea John's got and I don't see any problem at all with those three buildings. There were seven buildings just up until just recently there. These are going to look a lot better. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. MIDGELY: Thank you. MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Alright, so the point in question is what do we do now? Do we adjourn it without a date until the situation occurs that we have SEQRA and we can come back and have a final hearing or do we -- MEMBER SIMON: I think so, yeah. MEMBER OLIVA: I think so. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- or do we estimate a date sometime in the future for that final hearing? MEMBER WEISMAN: I think we should adjourn without a date cause that way Cathy can let us know when -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This way everybody PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 257 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 can be notified -- MEMBER SIMON: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible) the Planning Board and then we can schedule it because -- MRS. MESIANO: I'd like to have a date because that way we have something to shoot for because if we don't have a date things tend to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Drift. MRS. MESIANO: -- (inaudible) away and I don't (inaudible), but at least if there's a date I have some justification to say what I need and, you know, I'm not suggesting, you know, next week, but something reasonable. I know that the engineer Nelson, Pope has already been to the property so they have started to work on it and I would leave it to your discretion as to what would be a reasonable timeframe -- MEMBER WEISMAN: sorry. MRS. MESIANO: we flounder. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we have to -- -- without a date I think Alright, that makes Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 258 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 sense. We have the Planning -- they're sitting in for, you know, whatever reason, but can you maybe give us, Heather, we're, you know, tomorrow could you or somebody, give us any idea of how long that SEQRA process might take so that we're not totally off? BOARD ASST.: I would guess three months. I would guess three months, but I don't know Planning -- MEMBER WEISMAN: You have to talk to Chick Voorhees really nicely. BOARD ASST.: Maybe six weeks today, you know, maybe six weeks. MR. ROMANELLI: Six weeks (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, they have a better sense at the Planning Board, so you know -- MS. LANZA: Hi there, Heather Lanza, Planning Director. I think -- I talked to Nelson, Pope and he thought he'd have his initial review done this week. That doesn't mean that the Planning Board can turn around and make a determination. It might say it needs more information, it might say -- I don't know what it's going to say. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 259 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MS. LANZA: Say, best case scenario, it doesn't need anymore information and they have a recoramendation, it's going to take us probably -- we need to do a determination and a public hearing. I don't think it's going to make the April public hearing just because of timing. So that would be the May public hearing, which would be the second week of May and I think if you build in a little bit of time like that, at least we have time in case we need a little more information, and they have time to get it back to us. MEMBER WEISMAN: So you think June? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's put it on for June. MEMBER WEISMAN: Put it on for June. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, the June date. MS. LANZA: Our meeting is the second week of May, so I don't know how that coincides. BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we would go the following month. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So June -- MS. LANZA: Thank you. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 260 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: the June meeting? BOARD ASST.: MEMBER SIMON: May meeting? BOARD ASST.: 28. What's the date of June 23rd, I believe it is. What is the date of the Uh, the May meeting is May MEMBER SIMON: Oh, could we do possibly if the (inaudible) meeting in May? BOARD ASST.: It doesn't give -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're booked. BOARD ASST.: -- enough time for the it then, is early public to review it and -- MEMBER SIMON: Okay, oh right. Right. BOARD ASST.: -- for us to receive it and circulate it to everybody. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. BOARD ASST.: So I would say June should be good. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. MRS. MESIANO: Would you give me that date, June what? BOARD ASST.: June 23. MEMBER OLIVA: 23. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 BOARD ASST.: it's not the 23rd it would be the 25th, It should be a Thursday, if but -- 2 p.m.? 1:45. MR. ROMANELLI: [Not at microphone.] (Inaudible) SEQRA determination the Planning Board's (inaudible). BOARD ASST.: Yeah, that should be it. The SEQRA determination to go over it with the applicant. Right. What do on the 23rd? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: is it we're going to We're going to basically review any further information that we may have received from the Planning Board and we are going to receive (sic) any further information that we have from the public and then we have to start deliberating. MR. ROMANELLI: Thank you. MRS. MESIANO: I'll get you some kind of a history write up as soon as I can get it together. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great. MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, that should be very helpful. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: BOARD ASST.: 1:45. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 262 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 MRS. MESIANO: MR. ROMANELLI: MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ladies and gentleman, that concludes the -- BOARD ASST.: We'll need a resolution. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I'll make a motion adjourning to June 23rd at 1:45. BOARD ASST.: June calendar at 1:45 p.m. Who would like to second that? MEMBER WEISMAN: Me. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 263 ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was prepared using four-track electronic transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the Hearings. Denise Gasowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: April 12, 2009 Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Se~ice (631)878-8355