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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK:
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
March 19, 2009
9:30 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
KEN SCHNEIDER - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
JENNIFER ANDALORO - Assistant Town Attorney
01 ,, INAL
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
Hearing:
Mensch,
INDEX OF HEARINGS
LLC & North Fork Self Storage#6259
Page:
3-11
Steven and Christine Garms %6260 12-24
James and Denise Martin #6262 25-32
E. Marelic #6255 33-46
Frank Zagarino Trust #6257 47-74
Brian Frawley %6261 75-85
Frank and Diane Palillo #6263 86-98
Mary E. Manning %6265 99-104
Peter and G. Schembri #6256 #6276 amended 105-135
Highland House FI, LLC #6253 136-151
Paul Katz %6258 152-158
Kevin B and J. Faga #6281 amended %6243 159-172
Romanelli Realty, Inc. #6224 and #6100 173-262
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING %6259 - M. Mensch, LLC and
North Fork Self Storage
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variances, based on the
Building Inspector's November 25, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval, which states that a proposed
public self-storage building with an Apartment
is not permitted, for the following reasons:
(1) under Section 280-64C, no single
structure shall have more than 60
linear feet of frontage on one
street and the building will exceed
this frontage along Depot Lane, and
further;
(2) under Section 280-62C Accessory
Uses, an Apartment is not a
permitted accessory use.
Location of Property: 115 Commerce
Drive, Cutchogue; CTM 96-1-1.2."
Marty, do you want to come up?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA:
come?
MR. KOSMYNKA:
Marty, do you want to
Marty Kosmynka, I'm the
applicant. I'm the owner of the North Fork
Self Storage. I'm in contract to purchased
this from John Men$ch. I'm here in front of
you for two reasons. One is I need a variance
for the rear of my building at 75 feet. I
believe the Code states 60 feet. The mere
shape of the way this particular building
envelope is planned it's like a cone. The
front of my building, which will face Commerce
Drive, is 30 feet in width and the rear is 75.
It's like a one of these things. I will not
have any direct access from Depot Lane to the
rear of my property. It's pretty well
buffered pretty nicely over there and I did
try to -- if you see the rear of the building,
I kind of, you know, jig-sawed the back of the
building. So, you know, I tried to go 20 feet
from this property and 10 feet to break it up
so you wouldn't see this massive wall behind
Depot Lane. So that's what I've done with
that one. I mean, the (inaudible) is really
paramount to my business. I sell security and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
since 911 people have gotten even more intense
to have security at these storage facilities
and it's just part of the business profile.
I'm here to answer any questions you
have.
MEMBER OLIVA: How many square feet is
that apartment?
MR. KOSMYNKA: About 1000 and change.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's what I -- about
1000. It has two bedrooms.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Yeah, it's two bedrooms
with a study. You know, computer room,
whatever you can call it. The Health
Department says it's a three bedroom, but it's
fine. By the way, the Health Department is
being granted as we speak. They don't appear
to have any problems with it. I don't have
any heavy uses or any big sanitary flow here
and the building will be sprinkled, by the
way. I've also been in front of the
Architectural Review Board. I did not get
their comments back, but I don't believe
there's any real resistance to this.
MEMBER OLIVA: Is it going to be the same
architecture as the other storage?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. KOSMYNKA: It is. We've been very --
I've been very sensitive to keeping that same
type of feeling like with the --
MEMBER OLIVA: With the low lighting and
everything at night?
MR. KOSMYNKA: Yup, yup, yup. Yes, it's
on the site plan.
MEMBER OLIVA: And you'll have a good
evergreen screening again?
MR. KOSMYNKA:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. KOSMYNKA:
Without a doubt.
Along Depot Lane.
Right, right. Well,
actually Depot Lane is actually growing. I
see we've got some nice trees growing on
there. Henry Raynor planted them probably
about 15-20 years ago and they're finally
taking root.
MEMBER OLIVA: And that was the old
Montauk Bus?
MR. KOSMYNKA: Yes.
owner. He actually does
John Mensch is the
have site plan
approval. He took ill and he decided to sell
the property. They're using it until the end
of this year and (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: What's all that earthen
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
material over the fence there? Is that for
the other --
MR. KOSMYNKA: Yeah, that's not me.
That's the other -- I'm only the fenced-in
area. That's my building envelope, that's --
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. KOSMYNKA: The drainage is actually
in place (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: I saw that. Is that one
or two stories, the building?
MR. KOSMYNKA:
building.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. KOSMYNKA:
It will be a two-story
Two story.
Other than this, there's
no other requirements as far as parking. I
did everything according to the (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, this is a
honeycomb building similar to the other one
that's heated or is this a open cold storage
building?
MR. KOSMYNKA: No, no. It's a -- it's
similar to what the -- the second story is.
The second floor will be climate control. The
first story will be (inaudible) doors open up
and (inaudible). Then there will be a slight
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
(inaudible) smaller units on the first floor,
but basically climate controlled. A mixture
of both, a mixture of both, but the same type
of feel. It's a mansard roof with, you know,
green (inaudible) in the same brown. I went
to a class and they said my carbon footprint
compared to the depot is a lot less. I don't
know what that means.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I can tell you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Leslie is our architect.
MEMBER WEISMAN: After, I'll tell you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If I could
interrupt the hearing for a second, I forgot
to introduce our new Assistant Town Attorney,
Jennifer Andaloro here on my right, and Ken
Schneider our new member, over to my left and
your right.
MEMBER OLIVA: Welcome to both of you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Welcome to both.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER SIMON:
the number of 1400
apartment.
MEMBER OLIVA:
Thank you.
Okay, I thought I had seen
square feet for the
No, I don't think so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you can't find
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
it now, you can supply us with that --
MR. KOSMYNKA: No --
MEMBER OLIVA: It's 1100 or 1200 square
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, here it's 1200.
MR. KOSMYNKA: The watchman's quarters
are the same footprint as the office,
1,128 square feet.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright. So it's
mistake.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's
feet.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. KOSMYNKA:
plans naturally shows
MEMBER SIMON: Is
residence for the --
MR. KOSMYNKA:
MEMBER SIMON:
there?
MR. KOSMYNKA:
security.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. KOSMYNKA:
since
which is
1100,
like 1100 square
Right.
You can see the set of
(inaudible).
this essentially the
(Inaudible).
The watchman will live
That's right. 24/7
Alright.
And I have to tell you
911 they've actually come out with
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
recommendations for the storage industry. We
kind of always did it, but now they really
have come out with, you know, you have to be
vigilant. This is what you have to do --
MEMBER SIMON: Just a point. Clearly
we've already approved a watchman's quarters
on the same section of land, the same portion
of land. So consistency works in your favor,
certainly.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Thank you very much.
MEMBER OLIVA: You have an elevator going
up?
MR. KOSMYNKA: I do. It's a regular
people elevator.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. Okay, I don't have
any further questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you made a very
compelling application. There are two
precedents, both by this Board, that not only
the first, as Michael said, that granted not
only to you but 15 years ago to Jim Gray who's
storage unit is over on Horton Lane with the
condition that that apartment be occupied only
by the security/watchman/manager.
MR. KOSMYNKA: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: I presume the same
situation is acceptable. The other precedent
is the interpretation for an application by
Liv Sellers #4708, July '99 that ruled that
where there are two street frontages, only one
has to comply with the 60-foot or less Code
requirement. So, again, I think you have,
particularly with site plan approval and a big
buffer along Depot Lane, a very compelling
argument for simply granting the variances.
It's certainly an appropriate -- it is the use
in that area. There's no question that it
certainly won't be any detriment to anything
or anyone. So I don't really have any
problems with it.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone
else who would like to be heard on this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING #6260 Steven and
Christine Garms
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15, based on the Building Inspector's
November 24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed swimming pool in a side
yard instead of the code-required rear yard,
at 425 Rene Drive, Southold (Lot 3 on the 1978
Map of Gendron Minor Subdivision); CTM 54-6-
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the record,
Would you state
please?
MS. QUIGLEY: Good morning, I'm Kathy
Quigley from Swim King Pools.
MR. GARMS: And I'm Steve Garms.
MS. QUIGLEY: We just request permission
to put the in-ground pool in the side yard.
The rear yard is only 20 feet deep and frankly
just not wide enough for us.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No narrow lap pools
in there.
MS. QUIGLEY: Not a narrow lap pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Put in a bowling alley.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you for putting the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
pictures of the house.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No, I think it's
pretty straightforward.
MEMBER OLIVA: We went up there, I hope
that you improve that road a bit.
MR. GARMS: Oh yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Please, but anyway, I
think it's a good spot for it and the house
looks lovely and I wish you lots of luck with
it.
MR. GARMS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No attempt to
enclose this in any way? This will be an open
pool meaning open to the sky.
MR. GARMS: Yes. Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's virtually only in
the best place available. It's on the flat
part. It's open to the sky. The trees are
cleared in that area, there's some screening
already in place, you know, the time you would
use it there's some deciduous trees and so on
up there. I think there's only one neighbor
who would be directly affected who's directly
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
opposite with your property on Rene Drive, but
there's very large setback distances. It's
not that they're close together in any way. I
don't have any particular issues with it.
BOARD ASST.: We want to be able to pick
everyone up. Sometimes when the court
reporter transcribes she's not able to pick up
every word. I'm not hearing you well. I
don't know if it's me or if it's the mike.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, the mike.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any -- you
of course have to put a 4-foot fence around
the periphery of the pool. Is there any
landscaping you're anticipating around that
fence at all?
MR. GARMS: Probably not at this time.
Like you said, I have a lot of screening and
there's a lot of trees there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GARMS: So I'll probably keep it with
no additional landscaping.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Just stay
there, we have a gentleman who wants to speak.
Would you come up and use the mike, sir?
MR. STUTTS: Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
State your name for the record.
MR. STUTTS:
MR. GARMS:
MR. STUTTS:
the pool.
Paul Stutts, I live --
Steven and his wife. First,
wife jotted some stuff down
mental capacity of flea.
Morning Steve.
Hey, how are you doing?
Don't worry, I'm not against
I'm a neighbor of
I have some -- my
cause I have the
We've known them since they've been here
what 7 or 8 years or something.
MR. GARMS: Yeah, 5 years.
MR. STUTTS: They're beautiful people,
beautiful children. There are a few -- but we
have no objection to the pool. As a matter of
fact, Swim King did our pool in 1986 in our
house in Sag Harbor.
MS. QUIGLEY: Okay.
MR. STUTT: It was beautiful. I don't
want to get into that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You kind of have to
make your statements to the Board.
MR. STUTT: To the Board. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can pull that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
mike up a little bit.
MR. STUTT: Yeah.
me.
I think you
can hear
as you know, by us.
is going to fix it,
three-fold really.
Now, one of our neighbors
but our concerns are
One is being blocked in.
I live on the end of the road and we're
worried about the trucks. First of all, the
heavy trucks that are going to come in to do
this, cause I know all about it, is -- we're
worried about them blocking the road, but I'm
sure they won't, I've never had a problem with
that. But the tearing up of the road is what
we're really concerned with, I don't know how
it can get worse than what it is, but that's
what we're really worried about.
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BOARD ASST.: Yes, you're fine.
MR. STUTT: The issue that my wife and I
are concerned with is, like Steve knows, the
condition of the road is horrendous.
MEMBER OLIVA: I agree.
MR. STUTT: As a matter of fact, one of
my grandchildren got a concussion coming up
that road. You know, she came out of her car
seat, hit her head on the roof. It's owned,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. GARMS: Yeah. No, I know.
MR. STUTT: You know, cause the kids come
once a week and it's a --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to make
your comments to the Board.
MR. STUTT: Do it to the Board. It's
like an episode coming up that block and I'm
concerned that it's going to be worse.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask you a
question? Did you ever ask the Building --
the Highway Superintendent anything about
this?
MR. STUTT: The Highway Superintendents
know all about it. As a matter of fact, the
neighbor that lives at the end of our block, I
don't know his name --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) Schroeder.
MR. STUTT: No, not Schroeder, the other
side of the road. Schroeder is the one that's
going to fix the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
side.
MR. STUTT: Oh,
Pederson is the other
is that Pederson? As you
know,
he's
he's had, he approached me, I'm sure
approached Steve about drainage coming
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
down our road, crossing over the street and
going down into his iow-level place. You
know, I've had a lot of -- he seems to want to
come to me all the time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you talking about
the other side of Soundview?
MR. STUTT: The other side of Soundview.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's (Inaudible).
MR. STUTT: Well, whatever his name is, I
don't know, but we've had problems with him.
So that's one of our concerns, it's the road.
I don't know, our neighbor is going to fix it,
Schroeder, but in the
being done, you know,
it up that, you know,
interim while this is
to tear -- more tearing
we're worried we might
not even be able to get in there.
it's like a mud pit.
The other thing
be drained because I
You know,
You know, it's horrible.
is where the water would
know from having a pool
from Swim King that you have to backwash the
pool and everything else so we're worried
about that because any more water that comes
into that road is going to cause a bigger
mess.
MEMBER OLIVA: Excuse me, but is that a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
private road or is it --
MR. STUTT: It's a private road, yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Well, I suggest then when
you can see the Town Attorney. Some places
have formed an association that they pay off
how much it would cost to bring the road up to
specs, Town specs.
MR. STUTT: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: Then you pay it off, you
would have to pay it off in your taxes.
Sometimes the Town will chip-in something, in
these days I doubt it, but that's the only
way, really you could do it.
MR. STUTT: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: But they've done it up in
Orient by the Sea cause there was one road
that was just a mess of things, but they
formed their own district and then had it
appraised and had it brought up to Town specs.
MR. STUTT: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: But that's the only way
unless you have somebody there that's going to
give you (inaudible).
MR. STUTT: (Inaudible) is also on that
block and he's in the business. He's going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
-- I've fixed it myself, my sons are both in
construction and we've fixed it, as Steve
knows, multiple times. Tried to straighten it
out, I've dropped in fill, concrete,
everything. Nothing works, but Bobby said he
was going to fix it after you're done.
MR. GARMS:
really quick?
MR. STUTT:
MR. GARMS:
Can I comment on the road,
Yeah, go ahead.
I realize the concern of the
road, it is a private road and my daughter is
actually handicapped. We have the small bus
come up the road everyday.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, right.
MR. GARMS: So I do know the concern you
brought up. We spoke with Bob in the fall to
repair the road and I think once we get this
done, maybe I'll have them drop some stone in
that muddy spot and then once this is done
we'll -- all the neighbors need to get
together outside of, you know, as a --
MR. STUTT: Oh definitely.
MEMBER OLIVA: You could do that and just
all chip-in to keep it --
MR. STUTT: That's what we're going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
do, all going to chip-in.
MR. GARMS: I'll make sure that the road
is -- as well as Mr. Schroeder (inaudible) to
put some crushed stone in that one spot
because my concern is my daughter is
handicapped and if I need an ambulance up
there or that bus needs to get up the road and
during the winter I try to maintain the, you
know, the snowplowing at least on that one
section of the road to get up and down.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. GARMS: We'll address that.
In regard to the backwash, I have a large
drywell on the property and I can connect
right into that and wash it into that and just
let it drain into the ground so we don't have
to worry about any run-off.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good, that was our
next question.
MEMBER OLIVA: And mechanicals for the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was looking to see if
you have a drywell on the property already.
MR. GARMS: I don't know if it's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a leeching pool
on here, but I don't see a drywell. There's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
your water well.
MR. GARMS:
You know what, I think that's
MEMBER WEISMAN: In any case, you will
need a drywell for backwash.
MR. GARMS: Yes. I will not be -- there
won't be any backwash on the property cause I
can't even take any more water on my property.
MR. STUTT:
it's all clay.
MR. GARMS:
It doesn't leech up there,
Yeah, so that --
MEMBER OLIVA: Are you going to
(inaudible) the liner?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's boulders and clay.
MR. GARMS:
done, I'll put
into that. We
Yeah, when I have the pool
a well in and just backwash
don't have to worry about it.
MEMBER OLIVA:
The mechanicals will be
not -- and of course, you know you'll have to
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soundproofed?
MR. GARMS: Yes. Yes. I don't want to
hear it either.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can condition this
with, yeah, with soundproof cabinetry for the
pump equipment and drywell. You know, that's
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fence it. Four-foot fence around it.
MR. GARMS: I have a two-year-old, it'll
be fenced two times.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want you to know
that in some instances these accesses are
denied within the disapproval for 280A, which
is fire access. This has not been the case in
this application. Okay. So it really
behooves you to either speak to the Highway
Superintendent and create that special use
district after the pool is built and after the
road is improved by whoever improves it, but
in future situations up there it may be denied
and you may not be able to do anything until
the road is brought up to minimum
specifications. So just be aware of that and
that's the only reason why I allowed this
discourse to continue, okay, because we wanted
to explain that to you and just make you aware
of that situation up there.
BOARD ASST.: There's a procedure for
that, too. You can apply for a variance under
the New York Town Law 280A for fire vehicle
access and that means everyone who has access
over that right-of-way may have to chip-in and
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bring it up to standards.
Zoning Board of Appeals or
it's on a development map.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
There's also the
Planning Board if
Is there anybody
else who would like to
this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
speak for or against
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING #6262 James and Denise Martin
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-114, based on the Building Inspector's
November 7, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed one-story additions and
alternations to the existing dwelling, which
new construction will be less than the code-
required front yard setback of 60 feet on this
160,781 square foot parcel, located at Meadow
Beach Lane extension (120 Suter's Right-of-
Way), Mattituck; CTM 116-4-31."
Is there anyone here to present that?
Ural?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. TALGAT: Good.
How are you, Ural?
Ural Talgat, Samuels
and (Inaudible) Architects. Good morning.
Good to see all of you, especially you, Ruth.
I'm here (inaudible) this project for the
Martins and I just want to explain a couple of
things. The Martins originally wanted to add
a garage structure. They're buying a couple
of cars and they wanted to store them. As of
right, we explained this to the Martins, we
can only locate that garage structure in a
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portion of the property that was probably not
too conducive for development and I have an
aerial photograph. If I can show the Board?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. TALGAT:
a small copy and
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, this
[Not at microphone.] I have
I also have a larger copy
is the
alternate, proposed alternate location.
MR. TALGAT: [Not at microphone.]
According to zoning, we can build it as of
right and we were not sure that that would be
the correct placement for the garage structure
(inaudible) portion of the property that is
considered (inaudible) as the front yard. So
we decided to attach the structure to the
existing residence, thereby, what was
happening and that's why we're here, it would
be in a portion of the front yard by adding
three feet to the existing structure or the
(inaudible) or (inaudible) towards the north
(inaudible) and we thought that this would be
less impact on the property than say
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll begin. First of
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all, I absolutely agree that the very small
addition you're proposing, which is one story,
to the existing two-story garage, which has
bedrooms above it, it's attached, has
significantly less impact on that property and
on just the neighborhood.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very unobtrusive
and it's really rather small and of great
importance to me is that the only house that's
directly affected by it is the house that's
right across from the garage entrances --
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- on that road, right-
of-way, and the individual property owner
wrote a letter of support for it.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're essentially
maintaining the same setback that you already
have from that right-of-way and the right-of-
way is a secondary road relative to the
primary road that you face. So I think it
looks very handsome, the roof pitches are very
nice. I think it'll be done very well and
it's certainly much less of an impact than
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another accessory structure. Also, it makes
much more sense in terms of just the way the
property functions.
MR. TALGAT: Yes. This is all true and
one thing that we decided also was to keep the
accessory structure iow, architecturally in
terms of massing when we were looking at the
building there was a tower formed there and to
protrude out from that on top of the garage we
thought that would detract away from the
architecture, the historical quality of that
house. So we decided to keep it iow and
unobtrusive also.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. The shed that's
mentioned here and is on the plan, just a
concrete pad is down there now, right?
MR. TALGAT: I believe so, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you're building
that -- they're putting in the swimming pool,
so we just have the pad there.
MR. TALGAT: That's correct. Yeah, it
hasn't been built yet. We were here a couple
of years ago.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's related to the
use of the pool?
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MR. TALGAT: That's for the pool, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The equipment and so on.
MR. TALGAT: Right. Correct. That shed
MEMBER WEISMAN:
variance for already,
courts and so on.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
further questions.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. TALGAT:
MEMBER OLIVA:
is.
The pool you've got a
so it's the tennis
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that pool's going to
I don't have any
No questions.
The tennis court.
Did it work out nicely?
It's beautiful, it really
Can't wait to see how
look.
MR. TALGAT: Yeah, wait until you see the
pool. The pool is supposed to be very nice,
but I was really happy about the tennis court.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's great. You'd never
know it was there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's really unobtrusive.
MR. TALGAT: The last time we were here
we were talking about the (inaudible) factor
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and --
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, oh yes.
MR. TALGAT: -- I was thinking about
that, but I think it's mostly I hear more of
sailboat lines hitting masts more so then I do
tennis courts where the balls are bouncing,
but it turned out very nice and I'm very happy
and the Martins are also very nice people.
They tried to do the right thing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that was one
of the considerations I was hoping they were
doing. It's very nice.
MR. TALGAT: It is. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
specific questions. We've had, as you know, a
couple of variances on this property. I mean
it seems to be done very properly.
MEMBER SIMON:
requirement for the
setback, of course,
the property, which
Just an observation. The
setback, front yard
is affected by the size of
is why the Code calls for
a 60-foot setback on that side.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Which is pretty
considerable and hardly has bearing on that
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side of the property and the other mitigating
factor is that's hardly the kind of road, that
right of way, for which a 60-foot setback
would seem to be obviously called for.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: The other is in the
separate ancillary comments that people made
about the swimming pool, what I do remember,
this is just a off-the-record sort of
question, I mean it's on the record,
obviously, but there was concerns from the
neighbors and while to all of us here it
looked as though there was a wonderful
accommodation with the guard on the tennis
court, I hope the neighbors are equally happy.
That's all.
MR. TALGAT: I think they are. I don't
see any of them here right now. I don't know.
So far the neighbor to the east and a little
bit to the north, I've met him and we've had
dealings with him in terms of landscaping,
etc, etc and so far we met with him out there
a couple of days I saw him and he had no
complaints whatsoever. I think everybody is
more concerned about getting the project
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finished, at least the swimming pool, and so
they can enjoy the summer and the Martins also
want to do this and I'm not sure of their time
schedule. I know Mr. Berger was here, but I
don't know if this construction project will
start in this spring, probably next fall so
the Martins can enjoy the property and the
neighbors also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Okay, does
anybody want to ask Mr. Berger a question
regarding anything? He's standing outside
right now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that a pertinent
issue to the Board?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: I don't think so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there
anybody in the audience would like to speak
for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving decision
until later.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6255 - E. Marelic
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request to Waive a merger of two
properties under Zoning Code Section 280-11,
based on the Building Inspector's November 24,
2008 Notice of Disapproval, citing Section
280-10. This property is shown on the Map of
Bay Haven, Lots 32 and 33 as:
(1) CTM 88-4-19 as vacant land, with a
nonconforming area of +/- 17,500
square feet, and;
(2) CTM 88-4-18 as an improved parcel,
with a nonconforming area of +/-
17,500 square feet;
At 1160 and 1000 Bay Haven Lane,
Southold."
MEMBER OLIVA: Ms. Moore?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Patricia Moore, I'm
here on behalf of the Marelic family. Eva
Marelic is here and so is her son.
As you know, the waiver of merger
provision was long in coming. It was a
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provision that was put in a long time ago and
recently --
MEMBER OLIVA: Updated or down
(inaudible), whatever.
MRS. MOORE: -- the input from yourself,
Ms. Oliva, and in general, I think, support of
the Board to try to bring fairness back to the
process of grandfathering lots that were
developed and bought really without the
knowledge that they would merge. So we have a
situation, I call Mrs. Marelic my poster child
for waiver of merger, and I'm very pleased
that that's the first application I get to
bring before the Board.
Bay Haven, as you know, is a very well-
established subdivision in Southold. It is --
I asked Mr. Marelic how many lots remain
vacant and really there
find one, but it may be
somewhere. This is one
lots. It is also a lot
facing one street, Mrs.
is very few. I didn't
interspersed there
of the few vacant
that is arguably
Marelic's house is
facing the other street as adjacent property.
The properties are similar sized to the Bay
Haven community. There are probably in this
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subdivision alone 50 lots and in the adjacent
subdivision another 50 lots and they are all
of comparable size.
So given the circumstances, again, Mr.
and Mrs. Marelic when they purchased the
properties the house lot was purchased in
1983, thereafter, in 1990 the vacant lot was
purchased in anticipation of good investment,
possible, you know, for her children and so on
and unbeknownst to them the fact of buying
them in the same name, at different times, and
by different deeds, unfortunately, merged
them.
So again, I'm very pleased that we're --
we have the opportunity to come back to the
Board to ask for a waiver of merger and, as I
said, this was Mrs. Marelic I always say I
think the Town Board was finally persuaded
when Mrs. Marelic really laid into them as a
mother would to the Board explaining the
circumstances and the need for fairness. So
we're here before the Board and if you have
any questions I have them here; we'll answer
whatever questions you might have.
MEMBER OLIVA: Did you submit the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
original plans for the subdivision?
MRS. MOORE: The subdivision map?
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think I have the
subdivision map. I can look in the Assessor's
Office to see if there's a copy of the filed
map there. I can try to piece together --
MEMBER OLIVA: I'd appreciate that.
MRS. MOORE: I can do that. It's not a
problem.
MEMBER OLIVA: And also the adjacent one.
I am familiar with that area.
MRS. MOORE: What is the name of the
adjacent subdivision, do you know?
MEMBER OLIVA: One was -- Gin Lane is Bay
Haven and then you have -- what was the other
one?
BOARD ASST.: Gin Lane is part of Bay
Haven, right?
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Bay Haven is this
subdivision, I believe.
Do you know what the name of the
neighboring subdivision is?
MEMBER OLIVA: That's Midway.
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MRS. MOORE: Ramble Road is across the
street I think.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, Ramble Road is down
there.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but I think it was on
the other side.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because there was a big --
oh never mind.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I'll look and see if
the Assessor's can provide that for me.
MEMBER OLIVA: We did ride down there and
it's a nice wooded lot, the empty one, and
according to our new waiver of merger
provision I think it seems to meet the
criteria.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. It's pretty much very
straightforward.
MEMBER OLIVA: Cause all the lots in that
area are the same.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes. And I did, as an
officer of the Court, I'll put on the record
that I did receive phone calls from the
neighbors that we noticed and they were all
very much in favor, you know, hoping that Mrs.
Marelic is successful. I thanked them and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
they didn't have to be here, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the record,
Moore, they bought the house in 1983;
correct?
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MS.
is that
'93.
Uh, the house was built for
them; is that correct?
MRS. MARELIC: Yes in 1983.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, they
bought the lot that the house is on in 19837
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Do you need the (inaudible)
page? I have the single
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it right now.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
and separate here.
No. I'm looking at
MEMBER WEISMAN:
merged?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: Was
On what basis were they
Merger by death.
it upon death?
MRS. MOORE: Well, actually they were
purchased in the same name. Both lots were
purchased --
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MEMBER OLIVA: Different years.
MRS. MOORE: -- as Lucca Marelic and Eva
Marelic and then -- but, at that point, I
think that there was a provision for waiver of
subdivided -- of certain subdivisions. So Bay
Haven may have been one of the subdivisions
that was exempt and then the exemption came
out and the -- it continued to be in the same
name. They did some estate planning in '98
and it was changed over to Lucca Marelic and
Eva Marelic, his wife, as tenants in common.
So they split the ownership, but again it
remained in both family names, the husband and
the wife. Mr. Marelic passed away, but, at
that point, the ownership had continued pretty
much both in the same name.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's still then a
merger by death?
MEMBER SIMON: Would have been.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would have been.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it would have been a
merger by death. It's interesting because I
read -- the way that the Code is written it's
a little confusing where it -- when you buy --
it does allow for transfer in a family and I
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
honestly couldn't tell if, you know, if it's
purchased as a husband and wife and then
transferred one to the husband, one to the
wife, or whatever, that's permissible. I
honestly, and if you're reading it that you
can, that would certainly simplify things. We
may not have to come to you on very simple
applications like this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: But I couldn't, in all
fairness, I couldn't understand how it was
written. So if that's -- if you find that
it's not necessary to waive merger because you
were permitted to transfer as a husband and
wife into, you know, creating single and
separate status from a family situation, that
would simply things greatly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well you already
are before us. So I mean we --
MRS. MOORE: No, I
obviate my need to come
are family members.
know. It would
in on future ones that
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Yes.
MRS. MOORE: And I think if that was --
that may have been the intention. I just
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
couldn't tell, as it was written, if it was --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it was the
spirit of the law --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but whether for the
letter of the law, as described that way, it's
very difficult to figure out.
MRS. MOORE: I know that particular
paragraph or sentence is a little convoluted,
so I'm not sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But what I would like to
ask for, if you can provide it, is the 1959
Planning Board created subdivision map that
shows the unimproved lots as well as the lot
that the house is on and if that wasn't on
there then maybe it was created by deed. I
just want to, you know, before we go ahead,
cause you certainly do meet --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- as far as I'm
concerned all the criteria for waiver based on
the new law.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to have the
legal documents in place.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Sure, that's not a problem.
It appears from the single and separate, the
way it usually reads is if it's -- if the lot
wasn't created at the time it would in the
single and separate say, "part of premises",
and that's not the way the single and separate
shows. It actually clearly shows that map of
Bay Haven was filed in '59 and, thereafter, in
one -- lot 9, let me see what it says here.
Lot 9, the adjacent lot, lot 19. William
Wells I guess would have been the developer at
that time. He sold the vacant lot to
Alexander Vitale, but it's as a particular
parcel, not part of another parcel adjacent
parcel, but I'll get you the map.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: It shouldn't be that
difficult to get the file map.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
have the tax map -- yeah.
MRS. MOORE: I can get
just so that we
it -- I'm actually
heading to the Assessor's Office so I can get
that. That's not a problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, good. Alright. I
don't have any other questions except how in
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
the world do you contend with the deer in the
area? Oh my God.
MRS. MOORE: Don't feed them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They're even worse then
in my property.
MRS. MOORE: Don't feed them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They were literally
annoyed that I drove up.
MRS. MOORE: They're actually hanging out
at my office. I've have somebody that hit a
deer in my office, which is downtown.
MEMBER OLIVA: Come to my backyard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry to say,
but I need to go back to my original question.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, what was your question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in the purchase
of the lot, the lot was purchased --
MRS. MOORE: The vacant lot you're
saying?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. It was the
lot tax map number 19.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In 1990; is that
correct?
MRS. MOORE: Let me look. Yes. June of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
1990.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
from Alexander F.
MRS. MOORE:
Right.
You just mentioned
Vitale as the --
Yes, the executor, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- executor of the
-- to Lucca and Eva; is that correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good. And
then they did the exact same thing with the
estate planning, as you mentioned, in '98?
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the lot as they
did to the house?
MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you..
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: Just a comment on the
history of this. I agree this is the poster
child for the amended law; however, as I
remember and we spent a lot of time reading,
discussing and analyzing the two precedence.
It's very clear under the law of three or four
years ago this would have been a hard time
because of some provisions of it, but once the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
merger by death was already put into law this
would not have been a problem and the other
things would simply have not applied just
because of the history of this. I mean
looking at it, I mean, at any time, even five
years ago, this was a case that would call for
the law to be changed if the law said they
couldn't do it because it's a -- not only is
it a vacant lot, it is a lot that is totally
unimproved, but as you know and you have some
familiarity with cases where the so-called
vacant lot wasn't completely vacant, but it
was generally used and it was a lot harder to
make the case that this was really one lot or
really two separate lots, tax bills not
withstanding. This is an easy case.
MRS. MOORE: This is probably one of the
easiest cases you're going to get, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. And it would have
been a relatively easy case some time ago, at
least a year and a half ago before this
particular --
MRS. MOORE: Right. I think that the
waiver, the unwaiver, the unmerging by death
was a first step in the process --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: Right, yes.
MRS. MOORE: -- which this one
unfortunately they acquired as husband and
wife and husband and the death, obviously, had
occurred, that would have been exempt right
off the bat.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No further questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone
else would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING #6257 - Frank Zagarino Trust
By Carey Zagarino
MEMBER SIMON:
"Requests for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
November 14, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a new single-family dwelling (after
demolition of the existing building), for the
reasons that the new construction:
(1) will exceed the Code-limitation of
20% lot coverage on this 8,711
square foot lot, and;
(2) will be less than the Code-required
35 ft. minimum rear yard setback.
Location of Property: 200 South Oakwood Drive
(westerly side), at Laurel, also shown on the
Map of Laurel Park as Lot 15 and part of 16;
CTM 1000-145-3-3.1."
MS. GIGLIO: Good morning, Mr. Chairman
and members of the Board. My name is Jody
Giglio of Bennett Enterprises with offices at
1029 William Floyd Parkway, Shirley, New York,
here on behalf of the applicant.
I have submitted the affidavits of
mailing and posting along with white mailing
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
receipts and returned green cards and
envelopes.
The subject premise is situated on the
west side of South Oakwood Drive 195 feet
south of Peconic Bay Boulevard in Laurel. The
applicant is requesting permission to demolish
an existing one and a half story single-family
dwelling build prior to the Town of Southold
zoning ordinance and the proposed construction
of a new two-story single-family dwelling.
The existing lot coverage is 16.64
percent. The proposed is 23.3 percent and the
zoning requires 20 percent. So we're
requesting relief from that as well, as Mr.
Simon had indicated, the rear yard setback,
which is the existing is 3.8 feet, the
proposed is 10 feet and the zoning requires 35
feet.
I have provided the Board members with a
copy of the Town of Southold property card.
The card indicates that on May 19, 1960 a
permit was taken out to remodel the existing
home. In 1963, another permit was taken out
for a proposed addition. On December 31,
1971, Mr. Zagarino purchased 0.006 acres from
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
the adjoining property to the north. It
appears that the shed and the stairs to access
the roof deck were situated on the adjoining
property and the transfer of the acreage was
presumably the result of sale of the property
to the north. The current taxes on the
property are approximately $5,000.00 per year.
As per the Assessor's Office to which I
provided a set of the proposed plans, the new
tax roll will reflect approximately $10,000.00
in tax revenue to the Town of Southold.
The variance request before you, we feel,
is minimal in character and will not adversely
affect the surrounding properties or the
values thereof. There are several homes on
the block and I believe you all have photos of
the homes on the block that have been
remodeled. The proposed home is more in
keeping with the nature and character of the
neighborhood than the existing bungalow style
currently in existence. The hardship is not
self-created with regard to the rear yard
setback in that the existing home is 6-foot
closer to the rear property line than what is
being proposed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
The applicant can show that he meets the
lot coverage standard by 87 percent,
therefore, we feel the request is minimal for
both variances being requested. The variance
requested will not have a negative affect on
the environment. The neighborhood is 100
percent developed. The sanitary system is
substandard and does not meet the requirements
of Article 6 of the Suffolk County Sanitary
Code. There will be a new sanitary system
installed, which will thereby benefit both the
environment and groundwater management.
We respectfully request that the Board
grant the approval for the demolition and the
proposal for the new two-story single-family
dwelling.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I have a particular
question. I'm not sure whether the people are
aware that a demolition does not allow
preservation of the nonconforming setback.
MS. GIGLIO: No, I know that.
MEMBER SIMON: Therefore, it's a
significant -- it would be a significant
variance with regard to the rear setback, even
at 10 feet and then the question comes, and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
this is a question I'm going to ask you, is
since there's 60 feet between the proposed
front of the house, between there and the
road, why is the house being placed 10 feet,
and now a higher house, 10 feet from the rear
boundary line?
MS. GIGLIO: Okay, the reason being is
that the majority of the houses are situated
on the west side of South Oakwood Drive
maintain a similar setback to the 10 feet that
is being proposed and if the house were to be
moved up towards South Oakwood another 15
feet, the rear yard would actually be the side
yard of the adjoining property to the north
and the rear yard of the proposed dwelling
would also be the side yard of the existing
house to the west.
MEMBER SIMON: Say that again, I don't
think I followed that.
MS. GIGLIO: If the house was pushed up
closer to South Oakwood, then the rear yard
would be the side yard. So the people would
in the side houses --
MEMBER SIMON: I don't understand why it
would be the side yard.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS. GIGLIO: Because the people on both
sides, the adjoining properties to the north
and south will be looking from their houses
into the rear yard.
MEMBER SIMON: It'll be continuous with
their side yard.
MS. GIGLIO: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: It would not become the
side yard of this property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of this property.
MS. GIGLIO: No, of this property. I'm
sorry, yeah, I'm saying it wrong.
MEMBER SIMON: So the concern is about
the neighbor's side yard not being mirrored on
the other side of the property line. That's a
new consideration, which I hadn't really
thought of in those terms. Whether it's
sufficient for the variance as applied for is
something that we need to examine.
MS. GIGLIO: Right, and as I indicated,
the further up the house moves closer to South
Oakwood, the rear yard -- the way the house is
proposed right now, 10 feet of the property
line, is in-line with the neighbors. So the
closer we move the house up, the rear yard if
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
they were to, you know, put a swimming pool or
something in the backyard the houses to the
north and to the south would then be looking
down -- their houses would be even with the
swimming pool rather than --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, just to mention
this, first of all, the fact that the
neighboring houses are similarly nonconforming
MS. GIGLIO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- is not an overpowering
argument in favor of allowing a new house to
be built, which is equally nonconforming.
Secondly, with regard to the back yard, if,
for example, the Zagarinos decide that they
want to put in a swimming pool, or the
successor owner, there would be no place for
them to put it, but the front yard, which
would require a very major and significant
variance. So I -- we still need further
arguments why the house shouldn't be made
nonconforming (sic) since they're starting the
new house, which will fit someplace else on
the lot.
MS. GIGLIO: Okay. Do you have any
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
objection to moving the house another 15 feet
closer to South Oakwood?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you
a question before you speak, Mr. Zagarino?
MR. ZAGARINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have a plan
for the sanitary system before the Health
Department, at this time?
MS. GIGLIO: No, we don't. We were going
to wait and see what the Board determines
before we expended the costs of engineering
the sanitary system and also paying the fee to
the Suffolk County Department of Health
Services.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's what I
thought you were going to argue that the
Health Department requires the sanitary system
in the front yard.
MR. ZAGARINO: Yeah, there'll be no more
room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which they will.
MS. GIGLIO: They will, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you won't need
60 feet to put it in.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS. GIGLIO: No. It's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: In looking at the other
houses along South Oakwood, it seemed that
their front yard setbacks were not as far back
as what you're proposing.
MS. GIGLIO: Okay, do you --
MR. ZAGARINO: The houses to my south are
all setback on the same line, if not closer
than I am. Ail the houses to the south
towards the water and I have, right now, when
you look at the plans and you take the garage
that I propose, which is a pretty large garage
cause I have a business that I do big outdoor
movie screens, which I've done in Love Lane
and things like that, and I keep my trailer
there, which I don't think is very hospitable
to the neighbors or my boat, and the reason I
did these plans was so I could put them into
the garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, um-hmm.
MR. ZAGARINO: And if we moved it up
towards the center of the property, that
garage would almost be right off the street
cause the garage is out from the house on an
L-shaped form. So I thought for the look of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
the neighborhood and to keep everything clean
and to keep it away that's why the garage is a
little oversize so I can put everything inside
and, obviously, I love where the house is
situated and it's been there since, you know,
1943 and nobody's ever considered a pool cause
we live, you know, five houses from the water
and --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. ZAGARINO:
Near the water.
-- you know, this is in a
trust left to my children and we've been there
since 1943 and in my sister's will and in my
will is that the kids never sell this house
either and we have a huge involvement with the
neighborhood three or four generations and we
love being set on the back property line and
with the neighbors. The way it is, I really
can't fight for why, but one thing is the
garage I had that will house my trailer and
house my boat. If I move it forward, that
garage will be significantly -- I would
probably need another variance --
MEMBER OLIVA: Variance.
MR. ZAGARINO: -- because the garage
would slide so close to the front of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
property, not the front of the house.
Mr. Simon and I were looking at the house
and he was asking me where it would come and I
didn't know at that point either. We were
trying to figure it out together, but the
garage on the L of my plans goes so far cause
it's just a long garage when I slide it to the
middle the garage will be right at the front
of the street (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well,
suggesting that you do that.
no one's
I mean, but the
way your site plan is drawn you have 16 foot 4
inches from the property line to the wall of
the garage.
MR. ZAGARINO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's a
significant setback. Your house is much
farther back than that and I don't have any
objection to the additional lot coverage,
that's fairly small if you really have good
reason for a big garage, you know, that's at
33 feet. That's fine, but our job is to grant
the smallest variance reasonably possible. So
what we're exploring with you are the
arguments you may offer to us to say, well, 10
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
feet is the smallest. You know, even though
it's large, it's very justifiable and I can
understand emotionally saying this is where
we're used to having our house and we're
making it a little better than what it was,
but when it's a demo and you're not rebuilding
in place and in kind you really kind of start
from scratch with the Code as written and so
what we're trying to do is discuss with you
where you could logically put in the sanitary
system, which will be in the front yard.
MR. ZAGARINO: Right, (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: And trying to create a
little more conformity in the rear yard
without your having to feel that, you know,
it's completely alien to you in terms of what
you're used to for all these years.
MR. ZAGARINO: That, I mean, I can
totally under, I mean, it's hard to argue the
case of what is conforming cause I understand
what's conforming now. I mean when you look
at, you know, when you look at the houses on
the block and every house from me down to the
water is all on that back property line --
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. ZAGARINO: Visually it conforms very
well now and I mean I'm the one who proposed
the, with Scott Russell, proposed the skate
park to be done in Mattituck and have gone
through all that with the Mattituck Parks. I
have two boys and many of their friends that
skate and they all skate in their front yard
and I much rather have one piece of property
that's big enough to throw the football with
my son and do the recreation that I do than to
end up with two small yards.
You know, I could say I want to throw the
football with my 10-year-old which we do
everyday. I mean that's not a sufficient
argument for you, but for me it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me ask you
this, given that you have 60 feet, if you were
to move it toward the road another 10 feet,
you'd have 50 feet and you'd have a 20-foot
rear yard setback. That's something that I
would consider far more, you know, directed
towards conformity than 10 feet. 10 feet as
opposed to 35 feet on a total demo is a lot.
It's a really big, big variance and I do
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
understand your reasons and that's why we do
have the public hearing so we can see --
MR. ZAGARINO: Well, obviously, on a
selfish note, the way the neighborhood has
been constructed, the two houses that are
behind me are both on Peconic Bay Boulevard --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ZAGARINO: -- and have totally
cleared lots to the water.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ZAGARINO: So where the house is now
I have an undisturbed view of the water from
my house and when you slide the house up I
look into the barn that was approved one year
when my family was in Florida and these people
next to us built a full two-story car garage
that I stare in. Ail of a sudden, you know,
you go away one year when I was a kid and you
come back and this huge barn is there. They
did it in the winter when nobody was here and
it's a flat wall right on my property and when
I move the house up 15 feet, from the upstairs
that I'm building, instead of having a water
view I look directly into this person's barn
and even if I, I mean, personally, I'd love to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
have it 2 feet from the property line cause I
have an undisturbed view of the water from
where I'm building the upstairs. The second I
slide it up, there's literally a two-story
barn, it's a huge barn the gentleman did and
when I slide the house up anywhere you look
out of my house now looks right into his barn.
Even the way I've designed it, I've designed
putting windows on the back so I'm not staring
into this gentleman's wall.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ZAGARINO: So I mean that -- I mean
that significantly affected my --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a more
interesting --
MR. ZAGARINO: Well, it affects my
resale, it affects the view and it affects
what I'm looking into out of this whole --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. ZAGARINO: I mean I was hoping -- I
didn't know until I met Mr. Simon, I thought
if they were on the property line, I could
stay where I'm at. I didn't realize until I
came today, but with the whole design and the
architect I had draw the plans was to be able
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
to get the view from the back of the house and
literally where this person's barn is we don't
have any windows cause you're staring right
into a flat wall there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to
one thing, that this is a democratic
remember
vote.
MR.
ZAGARINO: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Three votes carry
the application. So, in the presence of what
Ms. Weisman is saying, we have to ask you the
question that you will consider alternate
relief as opposed to what you are requesting
and that means whatever we can agree to is
what will be the vote on the back yard
setback. Will you do that?
MR. ZAGARINO: Well do I --
MS. GIGLIO: Absolutely, we will
certainly consider it, and what I would like
to do for the Board to get a better idea and a
better feel is, if we were to move the house
up 35 feet is maybe have the engineer go out
and stake where the back of the house would be
because it's been other situations where there
are other preexisting nonconforming setbacks
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that are close to the rear property line, once
you build a house next door to it and you move
it up, you know, the neighbor to the south is
walking out his front door and looking right
into his back yard, such as he would be -- his
view of the water would be inhibited by the
large barn that was built.
So if I could have the, you know, rear of
the property staked where the rear of the
house would be at 35 feet, then again maybe at
25 feet and then again at 10 feet, just to
give the Board a better feel, and I'll submit
a letter and copies of the stakings after that
has been done to give you a better feel for
what Mr. Zagarino has stated to you.
MEMBER OLIVA: You don't have public
water along Peconic Bay Boulevard?
MR. ZAGARINO: Yes.
MS. GIGLIO: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. ZAGARINO:
the east of myself.
So you could tie-in --
It goes down the street
They ran it down
to
(Inaudible), but they never came down South
Oakwood. So it's quite a run, believe me,
we've always wanted it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay.
MR. ZAGARINO: And it's quite a run to
get it down our street.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's true.
MR. ZAGARINO: And I was offered,
obviously, this is my first time doing this,
as you can tell, but I was offered from both
neighbors on the side and the back and the
front for them to come here today that have
seen the plans and like where I have the house
situated, they all offered to write letters.
I didn't know if I would need them or not need
them. I actually just saw one of the
gentleman, cause I work up in Riverhead at the
gym, who said do you want me to come speak.
My directly across the street neighbor to
where it's situated and everything; I don't
know if that helps whatsoever, cause I know
you have your zoning, but they are all --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it does.
MR. ZAGARINO: Ail my four neighbors are
willing to come. They are all willing to
write letters and they all offered and I just
have never been through this and didn't know
what it would encompass.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because --
MEMBER OLIVA: Where do you have your
well?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just wait one
second, because of your mailings --
MR. ZAGARINO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, the fact
that we can't close the hearing today, okay,
they're welcome to write letters.
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we'll accept
them up until the 14th, we're actually -- we're
in effect, my suggestion to the Board is to
close the hearing to (inaudible) testimony
today and then to physically close the hearing
on the 14th, which is the day we deliberate.
BOARD ASST.: Make it April 7th, it's
always the Friday before our meeting that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it's the
Friday before our meeting, so they have until
April 7.
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, I forgot
about that.
Ruth, I apologize.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: And can you contact the
office, please, when you have the stakes in
place, so we can (inaudible) the site --
MEMBER OLIVA: We can go down and look.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and get a much better
-- we've done this before, it's a very good
idea.
MS. GIGLIO: Certainly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We also need you to
paint in the area of the stake, so just in
case the stake falls over the paint is on the
ground, with marking paint.
MS. GIGLIO: Certainly and then we'll get
the letters from the neighbors as well. I'll
affirm the addresses that these were sent to
and hopefully, get all the receipts before the
The address for the one
Yes, I will do that, too.
-- you said you had the new
7th of April.
BOARD ASST.:
neighbor that's --
MR. ZAGARINO:
BOARD ASST.:
address for.
MR. ZAGARINO: And the neighbor who I'm
very good friends with that I was talking
about, where the card came back, who is on my
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
south side, his house is set to the middle of
his property. The reason I did the L --
GIGLIO: That's the side of the
MS.
garage?
MR. ZAGARINO: No, no, no.
looking out he is on the north
Peconic Bay Boulevard and this
If I'm
side towards
gentleman and I
are friends and he has his kitchen built out
there and the reason I did the L the way I did
it from the other side is cause that -- they
only have a hedge and if I built the garage on
his side he would be staring out into the wall
the same problem I had. So because we talked
about it and the architect first wanted to do
the L with the garage on the Peconic Bay
Boulevard side and we moved it to the other
side cause I didn't want to have my neighbor
staring into a whatever 27-, 30-foot garage
wall right outside of his kitchen window. So
that's -- he's one I know would be opposed to
me moving up because if I moved up he'd be
staring right into the side of my house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, one of our, you
know, reasons for action has to do with
character of the neighborhood and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the stronger case you
could make about that, the more justification
we have for greater variance.
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not suggesting what
the outcome is going to be, but, you know,
following up on
MR. ZAGARINO: No, but at least I know
now how to proceed (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: In line with this, we're
not going to close the hearing today. It's
going to be closed in what three weeks from
now, three or four weeks, and the record is
still open. There's no reason why you
couldn't put some of these arguments in
writing to us between now and the 7th of April.
MR. ZAGARINO:
much.
MEMBER OLIVA:
Okay. Thank you very
So you have
and septic system on that piece
MS. GIGLIO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me one
second, we just want to rectify this one
your own well
of property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
situation regarding this one letter that came
back.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, there's two. The
letter that came back is actually to Joan, it
is not to Mr. (Inaudible), to Joan, so I
assume Joan may be the owner of the property.
You would need to have her address.
MS. GIGLIO: Who is the one that --
MR. ZAGARINO: Jody Giamallo.
MS. GIGLIO: -- just recently got
divorced?
BOARD ASST.: Joan is the name on the --
MR. ZAGARINO: That was Vinny Valco,
which is on the other side.
MS. GIGLIO: Vinny Valco.
MR. ZAGARINO: Right, one of them.
BOARD ASST.: This is Joan (inaudible)
that we would need the address for.
MR. ZAGARINO: I can go to her parent's
house and her address cause she's moved into
the city somewhere and I don't know where she
gets her mail, but I will -- okay, that's the
one that we need though, that one?
BOARD ASST.: Yes, that's the important
one.
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me.
7O
ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay, she's cattycorner to
BOARD ASST.: Thank you. The only other
thing is the next hearing is April 23rd, if the
hearing is left open it would be April 23rd
date to close the hearing.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh yeah. We can't close
it at a special meeting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We could close it
on the 14th, if we receive all their
documentation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. Well,
to close now subject to receipt.
close at a public hearing,
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I think,
we would have
We have to
and then -
could close at any hearing, okay, as long as
it's an open meeting. A scheduled open
meeting that we've scheduled, we've closed at
special meetings infinitum over the years.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: If you're adjourning the
hearing and we receive testimony from a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
neighbor,
we would need her to appear on April
Right. Right, that
Okay and that may happen.
Do I ask my neighbors to
23rd --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is correct.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. ZAGARINO:
I just have them
Letters are fine.
come here to testify or do
right letters?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
If you send a certified
BOARD ASST.:
letter to Joan --
MR. ZAGARINO:
BOARD ASST.:
I'll do that.
-- she's the only other one
No problem, okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: You're going to put
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address.
BOARD ASST.:
on the 23rd.
MR. ZAGARINO:
She may appear, she may not
that's, you know, can't speak right now.
MR. ZAGARINO: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: You can't speak for Joan, I
guess, right?
MR. ZAGARINO: No. I know her parents
live further down on Peconic Bay Boulevard, I
can go knock on their door and try and get her
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
some setback markings
MS. GIGLIO: Yes.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
down you said?
Looking at the site
plan on the north property line, that extra
property that you had purchased so you could
have the steps on the property there, if you
open that up, what's that a five-foot
extension?
MR. ZAGARINO: Right.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: If you extend that
southeast property line, could you put a stake
there also at your 15-foot setback?
MS. GIGLIO: The south --
MR. ZAGARINO: Here, what he's saying
where the piece is here.
MS. GIGLIO: Okay, so you want the
northeast corner of the house staked?
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Yes.
MS. GIGLIO: Okay.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Right at that -- if
you were to extend that line. Once you
encroach into that then you would have another
issue of --
MR. ZAGARINO: Yeah, then I get closer to
what where we lose that piece -- I see what
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
you're saying.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
that is.
MR.
property.
Okay, so we see where
ZAGARINO: When I move off the
Absolutely, I totally understand.
To the 23rd.
Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to not rush things.
So we can get out there in time so you can
submit all the stuff you want and then just
come back before us at that time and we'll
finalize it.
MR. ZAGARINO: If that's the 23rd, by what
date do you need the letters?
BOARD ASST.: 14th.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We actually haven't
established if we have room on the 23r~ yet.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that's the
reason why I was pointing toward the 14th.
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MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER OLIVA: That's fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was just,
procedurally, wondering whether it's simply
better to just keep the hearing open until the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: The 14tn?
BOARD ASST.: We can make room, that's
why I (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if that's the
case, we'll ask anybody in the audience if
they would like to speak at this hearing at
this time. If we see any hands, then we can
make a determination of that (inaudible). I
see no hands.
So then can you get us a date, Linda,
excuse me, a time for the hearing on the 23rd?
BOARD ASST.: On the 23rd I would say at
1:15.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so I make a
motion adjourning this hearing until April 23rd
at 1:15.
MEMBER OLIVA: So moved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6261 - Brian Frawley
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances based on the
Building Inspector's November 3, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval and Zoning Code Interpretation
# 5039 (Walz application), citing Code
Sections 280-112 and 280-124 for the minimum
required side yard setbacks on nonconforming
lots (51,955 square feet in this R-80 Zone).
The applicant is proposing a new dwelling at
less than 20 feet on a single side yard and
less than 40 feet for total side yards.
Location of Property: 4545 Hallock Lane (a
private road), Mattituck; CTM
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
name.
MR. WEBER: My name is
1000-112-1-2."
Please state your
Fred Weber, I'm
the architect for the owners, Brian and Amy
Frawley, who are sitting here, as well as the
builder, Eugene Berger, who is here. I have
the affidavit of postings as well as we sent
out two notices to the surrounding property
owners and only got one green card back. I
contacted the owner or neighbor on Tuesday on
the telephone. He lives in the city and he
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
said he hadn't been to the post office. I got
a copy of the tracking from the post office.
So it's sitting at his post office box right
now, but the owner had already sent him a
package, which showed all the floor plans, all
the elevations of the house. So he had that
package and we had conversation about it on
the phone. He said that he knew the hearing
was today that he wasn't going to be here. He
basically had no objection to the project and
he states that in the letter.
Further, we got a letter of non-
jurisdiction from the DEC since this
application was filed. So I just wanted to
submit that as well.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. WEBER: So basically the lot is
located on Hallock Lane, which is a small
private road in Mattituck that leads up to the
Long Island Sound. It's an elevated site with
views of Long Island
large site, a little
configuration of the
Sound. It's a fairly
over an acre, but the
lot is quite narrow.
It's 75 feet wide by almost 700 feet deep.
the depth of the lot is about nine or ten
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
times the width of the lot. So that creates
some difficulty.
There's an existing house on the site.
It's an existing two-story house, it was built
in the 1990s, early 1990s and it's, you know,
not very well constructed. It needs some
repairs including a new roof.
sided production style house.
this forward, this is a view
from the water looking back.
you currently look at as you
It's a vinyl
I can bring
from the house
So this is what
look out toward
Long Island Sound. There's not a lot of
windows there and the bathrooms are facing the
view. Ail the living spaces are on the other
side of the house, there's no view to the
water and it's not that well constructed.
Basically, we've decided that the best thing
to do would be to a teardown of the house.
I know teardowns are not that popular or
at least they're suspect, but in this case I
think it's justified that the house that's
there wasn't really designed for the site. It
was basically a house that looked like it was
going to be put in a subdivision and dropped
on (inaudible). I have a few renderings of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
what the proposed house would look like. The
idea is to make it much more into a kind of a
shingle or craftsman style house. The --
again, it's going to be opened up to views of
Long Island Sound a lot more.
As far as the location of the house, off
the back is a coastal erosion hazard line
here. (Inaudible) there is the top of bluff,
which we're over 100 feet from, so in that
regard we've, you know, considered all the
site plan requirements from the bluff. The
difficulty is basically with the lot. I show
you a first floor plan of the house. On the
eastern side -- well, first off, this dotted
red rectangle is the location of the existing
house. This orange shaded area is the area
that we've in a sense backed off the footprint
of the existing house. So on the east side
we're building, we're proposing to build 15
foot 6 inches, which is the existing setback
from the side yard.
Then all enclosed spaces that are
remaining outside of that envelope here and
here we are setting back the required 20 feet.
On the west side, again, we're moving the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
boundary of the house back five and a half
feet, which is that orange area, except for a
small projection here, which is really a small
architectural feature that the idea is to get
views from the back rooms out to Long Island
Sound and it doesn't have a great impact on
the overall, you know, massing of the house.
As far as the second floor, again, this
is the profile of the existing house and these
are the enclosed areas on the second floor,
which are back at the 20 feet setback. So we
are not blocking any neighbors' views.
There's also a garage, detached garage
proposed, which would have conforming setbacks
and possibly we just located the swimming pool
although the owner is not positive that's what
he's going to do, but we (inaudible).
Do you have any questions for myself or
the owners?
MEMBER SIMON: First, it's somewhat
refreshing to see where there's a demo and
there is a requirement for setback variation
that the setback variation is not on the side
of the water.
MEMBER OLIVA: It sure is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: And so the case for the
narrowness of the lot is a strong point, but
one question I have and this may have to do
with the Building Department, it cites the
Walz interpretation and I was curious whether
anyone -- if you have any idea why they
decided to invoke Walz where there is a
demolition. In other words, we're talking
about -- it's not a matter of increasing the
nonconformity, it's starting with a brand-new
nonconformity, so to speak.
MR. WEBER: I agree.
MEMBER SIMON: So that may just be an
editorial problem on the part of -- whether
Walz or not doesn't really make much
difference as far as I'm concerned and I
suspect for other people on the Board. I
don't really have any questions. I certainly
see that it's fairly modest. The thing is the
fact that the variance of the footprint, the
variance for the setback on the side is -- the
setback will be greater than before is good,
but necessarily because it's better, but just
because it's okay. If it is okay, it's okay.
I have no further questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
mention that we have not received anything
from the evaluation of Soil and Water
Conservation regarding this site. We are
realizing that you are setting back the
required distance from the Sound, the Code-
required distance that is. So their
recommendations tend to be very constructive
based upon the overall objective of the future
of the bluff, which we hope lasts for 100,000
more years. Okay, but we will send that you,
forward that to you, when we receive it and
this may be another issue we may want to leave
open for a little while. I just wanted to
mention that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. It's certainly
going to be a wonderful house to live in. The
side yards are more than adequate for
emergency access, okay, so that's one
advantage, and it is an incredibly narrow lot
for a property that's that large in acreage.
So I think it's only reasonable to want to put
a fairly substantially sized house on a piece
of property like that and I don't really have
a great deal of difficulty with this because
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
there's absolutely no impact on the neighbors.
There no impact on character of the
neighborhood. There's no environmental
impacts and I applaud the fact that you
straight upfront said we're getting rid of
this house. We're not going to start trying
to pretend we're rebuilding (inaudible) and
that you're consistent with the LWRP. I mean,
those are the major things where we get into
trouble.
So I wish you good luck with this project
and I think that roof jog is a wonderful
device for a diagonal view as well (inaudible)
as an architect (inaudible) myself. I mean
it's just a little jog and it isn't intruding
on anything. We have to call that the setback
distance, but clearly the setback is even more
substantial than that. So --
MR. WEBER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- no questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: I, too, was surprised that
you didn't own that nice vacant spot to the
west, but you don't. The lot is extremely
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
narrow and I think what you're doing sounds
wonderful to me.
MR. WEBER: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: You meet the setback to
the bluff, which knowing how much I like that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had an
application before us for a swimming pool
attached to the side of the house along with a
deck in Mattituck and during the application
process a portion of the bluff just lopped
right off. Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we could close
the hearing pending the receipt of the Soil
and Water Conservation evaluation, which would
-- we could give you time to respond to that
based on what they may or may not recommend --
MR. WEBER: You would be forwarding that
to me or I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As soon as we
receive it, yes.
MR. WEBER: Okay.
two.
BOARD ASST.:
It should be in a day or
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. WEBER: So it's already in motion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's already in
motion, yeah.
BOARD ASST.: We could have it on the
desk at the end of the day today, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. What we
would like you to do, and I'm not putting
words in your mouth, is to tell us that you
have accepted it and that you will take a look
at the recormmendations that they are going to
deal with based upon this. I have to tell you
that that's one of the concerns that we have
regarding this. It's something that does not
necessarily cost the property owner any money
to apply for, we basically do it on our own
for anything that's on the water and their
recommendations are very valuable.
So those are -- and I'm not putting words
in your mouth, so you don't have to --
MR. WEBER: No. I have to defer to the
owner (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need you to
use the mike, Mr. Frawley.
MR. FRAWLEY: The question is that we'll
follow the recommendations. I mean, within
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
reason, certainly, we want to preserve the
bluff as well. We paid a lot of money for
this property last year and that's what we
paid for. So we're here cause we want to keep
that property there and we'll do what we need
to do to make sure that happens.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
The reason why I ask that question is we
usually incorporate that into the decision,
that we have received it and these are the
recommendations that they are requesting and
so on and so forth.
Is there anybody else in the audience
would like to speak for or against this
application?
This is appeal 6261. Seeing no hands,
I'll make a motion closing the hearing pending
the receipt of the information from Soil and
Water, which we'll forward to the architect at
that time.
MEMBER SIMON: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING #6263 - Frank and Diane Palillo
BOARD ASST.: Mr. Barrett, I wanted to
give you a copy of a letter that the Board
received today from the LWRP coordinator who
states it's consistent. This is for your
information.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Sections
280-116-C and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's December 2, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed additions and
alterations to the existing single-family
dwelling, which new construction will be less
than the Code-required minimum of 35 feet for
a rear yard setback and less than 75 feet from
Great Pond (freshwater). Location of
Property: 7433 Soundview Avenue, Southold;
CTM 59-6-5.1."
Mr. Barrett,
MR. BARRETT:
how do you do?
Good morning.
Robert Barrett and my address is
(sic) Road, Nassau Point.
Before I start, I'd like to give you a
small handout that might help with the few
words I'm going to (inaudible).
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4295 Anston
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
As you know,
allow my clients,
Palillo, who are
I'm here today to ask you to
who are Frank and Diane
sitting here, to get
permission to modify the home which they've
just bought at this address. If you look at
the small handout you will see two colored
photographs on the first page. One shows the
front of the house and the other shows the
back of the house and then the second handout
is a drawing which shows you where exactly
those dimensions are, which are mentioned in
the disapproval.
Before I proceed any further, those
details I most happily report that I have
received the affidavits of post date and
mailing and I've also received the green
receipts from the neighbors and those were
lodged with the office two or three days ago.
Since that time, I've also received emails
from two of the neighbors. People are so busy
these days they can't come personally. I'm
sure they would if they could, but I'll just
say -- I'll paraphrase what they said. In the
case of Helen Bellano who lives two doors from
the subject property, she says, we have no
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
objection to the renovation that the Palillos
are planning. We think it will be an
improvement on our little neighborhood.
In fact, on the point of improvement,
partly as the result of Frank's interest in
purchasing this property, that has also had a
beneficial affect on the properties in as much
as Suffolk County Water have now taken the
water service into this part of the road and
all --
MEMBER OLIVA: Very good.
MR. BENNETT: -- the way to the end so
that all the houses can have the benefit of
public water in the future.
The second email I received is from Roy
Faulk who lives next door to the Palillos.
His wife is quite ill and they have made one
trip here this past year, but it's doubtful
they will be coming here personally, they live
in California, and what they said was, "As
owners of the home adjacent to the Palillos
and being the owners of the buildable lots
across the private driveway from the Palillos
residence, my wife and I have no objection to
the remodel plans as conveyed in all the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
documents which we have seen and reviewed. In
addition, we will be pleased to see the
notable improvement to the immediate
neighborhood structure, appearance and value
what the documents define."
In other words, they're saying the plans
Frank has are to upgrade this 1957 house in
terms of appearance and in other matters also.
The primary objective that he has is he and
his wife have bought a house and are a married
couple who have three daughters. So, you
know, they're a very reasonable family. The
current house, I would call it a semi-cape.
It has two very small bedrooms and a bathroom
upstairs and then the only decent size room
downstairs is in fact subdivided into two
rooms, which are in fact two bedrooms.
Now, what we want to do is we want to
merge those two rooms downstairs into one and
it will become a combination TV room and
possibly a place where guests might sleep
overnight. The family will be sleeping
upstairs and they, right now, they have
basically one and a half bedrooms and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
whole purpose of the improvement is to extend
the second story in two ways.
MEMBER OLIVA: Over the garage.
MR. BARRETT: Number one to make a
bedroom, which right now is 8-foot square into
something more like 8 by 12 and then add a
second bedroom so that in all they have three
bedrooms on the top floor where he and his
wife and their children can sleep comfortably
in a peaceful neighborhood.
MEMBER OLIVA: This is going to be done
over the garage?
MR. BARRETT: Yes,
the reason they bought
exactly. I might add
this house is when they
first came apparently they just fell in love
with the view of Great Pond.
MEMBER OLIVA: I don't blame them.
MR. BARRETT: And, you know, it really
does have one of the best views for being on
the wider part of the pond.
Now, you've seen the drawing and on the
drawing the green outline is the current
footprint of the building and what we have
used as a guiding principle throughout all of
our discussions as being we must stay within
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that green footprint.
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm.
MR. BARRETT: And so what the owner
decided was to extend the dormer on the lake
side of the house and then, in order to add a
little more illumination, add three gable
dormers on the front side of the building. In
no case do we violate the existing footprint
and what more can I really say? It's adding
to the house to make it more viable for a
growing family.
The benefits are several fold. First, of
course, Frank and Diane get the weekend home
of their dreams and from the point of view of
Southold Township there's some significant
advantages to us. Currently, this home which
has basically been there since '57 is served
by a single cesspool, which is only about 35
or 36 feet from Great Pond and it's many, many
years old. The first thing Frank decided he
wanted to do was he wanted to abandon that
under supervision from the Health Department
and we then went to the Health Department with
a preliminary design for a large leaching
field front lot. As soon as we had
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
preliminary approval from the Health
Department we then went to the -- region one
of the New York DEC and to the Town of
Southold Trustees for approval to place that
leaching field where it is. The DEC were a
little concerned because the whole property is
well within the 300 foot jurisdiction of the
- however, they gave us permission and the
Trustees followed up and also gave us
permission, but only on proviso that the
active leaching pools are outside of their
immediate jurisdiction, which is the 100 foot
from the bulkhead line. Having got that
information, we then had to redesign the
septic system to put the leaching pools
basically in a row and that involved basically
feeding the three on one side by one line and
the three on the other side by another line.
Now that is a unique configuration and Frank
went through the added expense and time, etc,
of obtaining approval from the Suffolk County
Design Review Board of the Health Department
in order to get that approval. That approval
came through in November and shortly
thereafter Frank became the proud owner of the
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house.
He made a judgment that he would go ahead
at that point without full approval because
there was still the variance, but I think that
adding this modern septic system can't do
anything but good to Great Pond. The other
aspects which could be considered improvements
are, of course, the appearance of the house
and we have, clearly have, written
confirmation from two people, but I have
interviewed everybody on that street and
everybody, as far as I could see, are very
happy with what we're doing and in some cases
they wish they had the funds to do something
themselves, but you know, that's life.
So that's really all I have to say and I
and Frank and Diana are obviously here to
answer any questions you might have. Thank
you.
MEMBER OLIVA: The deck is going to be
rebuilt also?
MR. BENNETT: No, ma'am, no. The deck is
in fine shape and it may be repainted, but the
structure --
MEMBER OLIVA: The structure is good?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. BENNETT: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: From underneath, too?
MR. BENNETT: I think I know how your
question was forced. The Building Department
when Vicky {inaudible) wrote the argument she
mentioned reconstruction. The deck she's
referring to is not the primary deck. As I
said, when these people bought this they fell
in love with the view and one of the
architectural details they want is a very
small balcony from what would be their bedroom
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh okay, second floor.
MR. BENNETT: It's 7-1/2 feet wide and
it's cantilevered over the deck 5 feet.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BENNETT:
the footprint.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
deck?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BENNETT:
Okay.
Of course, it's well within
So it's a second story
Second story.
Second story.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It was confusing.
MEMBER OLIVA: It was confusing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: {Inaudible) structurally
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
in bad repair (inaudible).
MR. BENNETT: No, I think, I'm not sure,
it's hard to tell when these things were
repaired, but I think the existing decks might
have been repaired back in the 90s when the
bulkhead was repaired.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That wouldn't had --
MEMBER OLIVA: The footings --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm sorry, Ruth. You go
ahead.
MEMBER OLIVA: With previous experience
out west with my son's deck, the footings are
-- I'd like an engineer's report on the
footings to make sure that they're safe
because we've had, you know, you've seen it on
the TV of decks falling down and I wouldn't
want this to happen to these people and, of
course, there is some mold and stuff on there,
but that can be scrubbed off.
MR. BENNETT: Sure.
MEMBER OLIVA: There's no problem with
that and the dormers will be in the front and
in -- facing the pond?
MR. BENNETT: Yes. Following the example
of the architect who preceded me, I have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
drawing here I'll just show you.
[Not at microphone.] (Inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BENNETT:
MEMBER OLIVA:
twice.
MR. BENNETT:
Oh, that's
This is --
The front,
fine.
I've been there
[Not at microphone.]
(Inaudible) back of the house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. BENNETT: And here is
(inaudible). So this is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
continuous dormer.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BENNETT:
the
the existing --
It's called a
A continuous dormer, okay.
[Not at microphone.]
(Inaudible) and here is the little balcony --
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-huh, okay.
MR. BENNETT: -- (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
That's very helpful.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you very much.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's going to
make a great improvement in the neighborhood.
MR. BENNETT: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Soundview, so --
MEMBER SIMON:
been answered.
MR. BENNETT:
MEMBER OLIVA:
I live right on
Ail of my questions have
Thank you, Michael.
So there will be leaders
and gutters installed to a drywell?
MR. BENNETT: I'm sorry, I should have
mentioned that. Yes. The -- when we went
before the Town Engineer, of course, he wanted
drywells to be added.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They're on the survey.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. BENNETT: [Not at microphone.]
There's one here, one here and one here
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: More than adequate.
MR. BENNETT: Three is perfectly adequate
for this property.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Yes, of course it is.
Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the only
other thing I just want to mention for the
record is that the LWRP coordinator indicated
that the evaluation is that the property is
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
consistent with LWRP and I'll ask if anybody
else would like to speak in favor or against
this application.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6265 - Mary E. Manning
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for an Interpretation and/or
Variance under Section 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's revised December 12, 2008
Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed
addition to the existing single-family
dwelling: (1) which will be less than the
code-required minimum 10 ft. side yard, and;
(2) which new construction will place the
existing garage in a side yard instead of the
Code-required rear yard, at 700 Terry Lane,
Southold; CTM 65-1-12."
MS. MANNING: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
State your name for the record, please.
MS. MANNING: My name is Mary Manning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MS. MANNING: How are you?
I live at 700 Terry Lane in Southold, New
York. I am the applicant for the two side
yard variances as stated in my application. I
believe the application, the survey, pictures
and your visit to the site is fully self-
explanatory; however, if you have any
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
questions, I am here to answer them.
You have letters from my neighbors
approving my application and I certainly hope
you will grant me the variances so I can
obtain a building permit and begin this
addition. I have a contractor by the name of
A1 Riker who is all ready to build the
addition. We can get it done in the next
month or two if you grant me the permission.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
Wait.
I understand you're
asking basically it's not a increase in the
footprint, but you're simply replacing the
deck with a first floor addition; is that
correct?
MS. MANNING: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I don't have any
further questions on this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's very
straightforward. I certainly would want to
have a little sitting room to look at that
lovely pond and garden you have in the back.
MS. MANNING: Yes, in the sununer it's
just beautiful.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Charming, just charming.
It's just an anomaly that your garage
will be suddenly, it's not moving anywhere,
it's just a legal technicality, so good luck
with it.
MS. MANNING: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question. Since
the garage isn't moving and the deck isn't
moving, how does it place the garage in the
side yard? That I didn't understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I didn't either,
frankly.
MS. MANNING: I have no idea what that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This has been a
recent new --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I really don't
understand it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- evaluation by
the -- not really recent, in the last couple
of years, by the Building Inspector --
BOARD ASST.:
addition.
MEMBER SIMON:
was.
BOARD ASST.:
Because it's a one-story
But it's where the deck
But -- yeah --
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MEMBER SIMON: In other words, the deck -
MEMBER OLIVA: It makes it more --
MEMBER WEISMAN: These plans are not --
BOARD ASST.: It was written up --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Although I think when I
got there, cause the site plan shows it as
though it would remain in the rear yard.
MS. MANNING: It is in the rear yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But when we got there, I
could see -- it looked as though it's possible
that somehow the garage is a little more
forward.
MEMBER SIMON: Unless it's caused an
overlap.
MS. MANNING: It is not, no.
MEMBER SIMON: Unless the addition is
going to extend just a little bit to the rear
of where the deck is, because I paced it out
and the edge of the deck is in line with the
front of the garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's right.
MS. MANNING: It's not really, it's
actually back towards the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it's a little
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
bit farther back.
MS. MANNING: It's not -- it would not
come directly to meet the front of the garage,
there's about three feet where the deck ends
and then the garage to the left, but the
addition isn't going there, it's going to the
right hand side extending out of the kitchen.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, regardless, I
mean, it's just easier to go with the Notice
of Disapproval rather than starting to
question it.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I have no problems
with either variance.
MS. MANNING: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MS. MANNINGS: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's a charming little
house and I love the way you've done it.
MS. MANNING:
Mr. Mullins house.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Thank you, it used to be
That's where he grew up.
Yes.
Oh.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS. MANNING: It's original 1930s
(inaudible) block.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Very sweet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no
questions.
MS. MANNING: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll see if
anybody else would like to speak. Is there
anybody else in the audience would like to
speak regarding this hearing, 61657
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING #6256, 6276 as amended -
Peter and Gail Schembri
MEMBER SCHNEIDER:
"Requests for the Variances, based on the
Building Inspector's January 20, 2009 amended
Notice of Disapproval concerning:
(1) a proposed rear addition to the
Existing dwelling with a setback at
less than 100 feet from the top of
the bluff adjacent to the Long
Island Sound, and;
(2) concerning a proposed single-story
addition to the existing dwelling
with a setback at less than the
Code-required 15 feet on a single
side yard on this 24,053-square-foot
nonconforming lot.
Location of Property: 1435 Sound View
Road, Orient; CTM 15-3-16."
MR. SCHEMBRI: How are you? I'm Pete
Schembri.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to say
one thing. When I originally inspected the
property with Mr. Schembri, he did indicate to
me that he was going to bring a second
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
application in and that is why we have a
second application in and that is why we have
a second application number; however, we are
in fact incorporating both applications
hearings into one.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Schembri, what
would you like to tell us?
MR. SCHEMBRI: Just I purchased the house
back in November and early October, November
and just the house was built in the late
1950s. I believe the original house that was
built (inaudible). Our first thought was to
actually replace the house that was there, the
structure, but most of the neighbors that we
had spoke to asked if we would consider
keeping the house. With that, we have decided
to keep the house that was there and make due
with what was there and try to keep the
integrity of what
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. SCHEMBRI:
in the same state
the community was originally
basically for what it was and what it is,
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Right.
-- and to keep the house
that it was. So we built it
that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
stands there today, the only thing that we're
missing was just a little more room. We have
two kids, we plan on retiring there full-time.
It's our own personal house. If we could have
done anything else, we would have, but there's
no other place to go in the footprint of that
size, but to go for a variance try to gain a
little more room.
We went in front of the Trustees. We had
two meetings and the only thing they have
asked us to do was if we would consider making
the room a little smaller. We did that, the
meeting was last night, instead of 18 by 18,
the room is going to be 16 by 18.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 16 (inaudible) 2 foot
setback from the bluff more.
MR. SCHEMBRI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCHEMBRI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
2 foot less.
So it would be 87
Correct.
Okay.
feet?
MR. SCHEMBRI: And they felt there were
no environmental issues that would be a
problem and they said we're good to go. So
they sent us here and here we are.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's going to make
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that then totally the same as the deck, in
line with the deck?
MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes, that's what they
wanted, to keep it in line with the deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what it is, yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: I didn't get to walk to
the edge of that bluff. What condition is
that bluff in?
MR. SCHEMBRI: It's in very good shape.
MEMBER OLIVA: Is it vegetated?
MR. SCHEMBRI: Fully vegetated, yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Fully vegetated.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Did the Trustees ask you
to put a non-turf buffer at the top?
MR. SCHEMBRI: Yeah. What it is is
stairs out of there and they told us to stay
off that whole section of the bluff. We're
quite a ways away at 85 feet, so --
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, I was pleased to see
that.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Yes. Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because with those
nor'easters back in the 90s destroy -- because
the composition of the bluff in Orient-by-the-
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
Sea and further west is really just old
glacier material, a very fine gray cobbly-type
of stuff that washed away --
MR. SCHEMBRI: Yeah. I guess back in the
50s or maybe the 40s, I'm not sure, the Army
Corps of Engineers actually put jetties there.
So there's like four jetties that protrude out
along Orient-by-the-Sea.
MEMBER OLIVA: They -- what's his name,
used to have a railway down there at the end
to launch boats for fishing.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Right. Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let me ask --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. I just had to
(inaudible) and summarizing the Code is 100
feet, it wasn't always 100 feet and ordinarily
when somebody wants a variance and exception
to this there's going to be a reason.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And the powerfulness of
the reason depends upon how much of a variance
is granted. In this case, what the -- there's
a reason for the 100-foot rule. Certainly,
because in many cases 100 feet is pretty much
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
what we need, and in some cases it may be less
than we need and perhaps this case. So that
would be an argument that could be made if you
had a more hostile Board than you seem to have
at the moment. So I think the argument would
be that, in this case, the idea is that, yes,
the deck and the addition could have been in
the other side of the house, which is
obviously not attractive from the point of
view of the builder, and to make drastic
changes in the structure of the house is also
an enormous expense. I guess what I'm saying
is that this seems to make sense, but looked
at fully in terms of the particular reasons
for doing this.
So this is a long way of saying that I do
not have any questions, but I guess what I --
the reason I'm saying this is I would like to
resist the suggestion that sometimes we hear
throughout the Town, not from you, certainly,
but from other people, is look all you have to
do, if you want an exception from the Code, is
come before the Board and if the Code says 30
feet and you come and ask for 25, you can
automatically get it. I don't think this is
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automatic, I think it's deserved and I think
the burden continues to be on the applicant to
convince us, as I think you're convincing me,
anyway, that it will be deserved.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: My -- first of all, as I
said when I saw you at the site, you've done a
lovely job on the renovation and I think that
your approach to this entire property is the
reason why relief was built into the law. You
have no alternative location.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very small house,
you've kept it a small house while others have
chosen to demolish or substantially enlarge.
It is not a significant variance and the
question I actually have is procedural, I
think, rather than -- perhaps what you might
want to do is submit a request for amended
relief of 87 feet from the bluff, rather than
85, just so we're consistent. We don't need
another Notice of Disapproval, or we can
provide alternate relief at 87 feet. So
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Correct.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that's just a
(inaudible). Gerry, what way do you prefer he
do it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hadn't gotten to
that actually, but normally what we ask the
applicant to do is come up and modify the
application, himself or herself.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So submit a request for
amended relief at 87 feet from the bluff.
MEMBER SIMON: Couldn't we just do it by
simply denying it at 85 and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we could.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, we could do it either
way.
MEMBER SIMON: -- have the amended at 87.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to ask the
proverbial question
alternate relief?
MEMBER SIMON:
is will you accept
But it doesn't require
anymore papers. That's what I'm saying.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he just -- he
signs it on the application, right on the
survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think rather than put
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
down a denial, since you have already
requested a greater setback, it's probably
better if you just simply request 87 feet
instead and put it in writing and then we're
done.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Any
other questions?
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No. It's a nice
project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see if
anybody else would like to speak.
Would anybody else like to speak?
Sir, state your name for the record,
please.
MR. CHUSIANO: My name is Mr. Chusiano.
I reside at 1525 Soundview Road. I'm directly
next door to Mr. Schembri.
A number of years ago my wife and I were
contract vendees for a Sound-front piece of
property in Peconic. At that time, we applied
for all the proper permits and fulfilled all
the requests of the meetings of the Trustees
and the end result was we weren't allowed to
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build because we were less than 100 feet from
the bluff. We were sandwiched between a small
wetlands and the bluff, we were at 87 feet.
The property was deemed non-buildable. So
after an expensive lesson we just said, okay,
that's the law, you know, we accepted it and
just moved on our merry way.
Then we found this piece that we live on
now, it was vacant property. We bought it and
now that we had the education behind us we
submitted all the plans. Inadvertently, at
some spots it was 97 feet from the bluff. We
were told no good; you have to redo these
plans. So we spent a little more money, redid
the plans to accept the other three feet and
everything went fine.
Now, last year I applied to the Trustees
to have stairs, beach
They sent over one of
examined the property.
access stairs put in.
the Trustees, he
He said no problem,
you know, we're only 8-foot high. Based upon
what he said, we went and we got all our
paperwork in order, spent $3,000.00, came to
the meeting and once again we were denied. We
were denied because there's a law that's in
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
the book that says if you're an adjacent
property owner to an association property and
the association property has beach access, I
can't have access.
I mean are there laws or is there no laws
and who abides by the laws? I mean I got it
three times here. It's not right. It's not
right. It questions your credibility, to me.
So if this happens, I mean, if it's okay then
I'm building my stairs. There's no reason, it
sends a message to me that there's no reason
why I shouldn't be able to do that.
MEMBER OLIVA: We can't grant you that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to
understand one thing, you have not been before
the Zoning Board in any one of those --
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- situations.
Okay. I can't speak for the Trustees on what
they have done. Okay. And I was unaware of
the fact that you couldn't have stairs, which
is not necessarily germane to this
application, but in all true candor, I
understand your frustration. That's all I can
tell you at this point.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
BOARD ASST.: It sounds like a lot of
other agencies, too, not this agency.
MR. CHUSIANO: Well, like I said, you
know, it was all based on setback. So --
MEMBER SIMON: I appreciate your remarks,
though.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, I agree.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I do, too.
I would ask you one favor, could you
close that back door for us, please?
MR. CHUSIANO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
on behalf of this application?
Sir. Would you come up and state your
name for the record?
MR. LOBO: My name is Joseph Lobo. I
live at 870 Soundview Road.
I applaud the Trustees and I applaud the
Board determination to maintain the ecological
soundness of Long Island and our area. That's
very good. The bays, I'm not an expert in
that area, but I believe that you're doing --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
whatever you're doing, you're doing for the
best interest of all residents, those who live
by the bluff and those you live on the other
side and those who live by the town. I think
it's commendable, but I find and I think it
should be something that should be applied
equally to everyone and if you are to make the
decision that Mr. -- what's his name?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Schembri.
MR. LOBO: If he can build or not, it has
to be consistent with past decisions, not
based on personal relationship, business
relationship or whatever or because these type
of reasons. If he want to build an extra
room, it could be done on top of the garage, I
imagine. He has plenty of room up there.
This setback it was determined to be 100 feet,
it should be a reason and it should be a
compelling reason and it should not be a
reason that could otherwise be looked away in
order to allow these things to happen because
there is no control. You begin to make
allowances and that's how (inaudible) maybe we
should take a lesson on what's happening to
the country now. Ail these rules and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
regulations were relaxed until there is no
laws and then everybody goes down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just speak
one second regarding that?
MR. LOBO: I think that (inaudible)
should be --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I apologize for
cutting you off. When this law actually came
into being, we had applications before us on a
piece of property called Eastern Shores in
Greenport, which are surprisingly smaller lots
than these. They're narrower,
little higher bluff, a lot of
beach frontage and Councilman
actually spearheaded this law,
they have a
rocks on the
Stautenberg who
which goes back
sometime. I said to him, Paul, I don't know
how this law is going to apply to Eastern
Shores, which is a nonconforming lot in
reference to size at that time. If Mr.
Stautenberg was here and remembered that
discussion with me,
yes, that's what I
to be attributable
hopefully, he would say,
said. He said, the law has
to each piece of property,
each piece of property is unique in its own
fashion and I understand exactly what you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
saying, but the one thing you must understand,
you and everybody else and I'm not pointing to
you, I'm making a general statement, that by
the nature of us looking at this piece of
property, which is unique, it's a beautiful
piece of property as I'm sure yours is and I'm
sure the gentleman's next door is. We have a
bluff that is relatively low, that is totally
vegetated with no visible signs of any scoring
down below. It has existing groins out into
the Sound that have been in place there many
years. Those are all factors that I use in
judging the percentage of the variance and
that is what I will use in the justification
of this in granting it or not granting it and
I just want you to be aware that if we didn't
have that application before us at the time,
okay, when Paul Stautenberg developed this law
and the Town Board voted on it and it became
Code and was codified in this I wouldn't have
asked that question of him.
What he said to me was, I just want you
to look at every piece of property. I want
you to determine the uniqueness of that
property and the aspects of that piece of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
property. Is it high erosion area, is there
(inaudible) scoring on the property, does the
granting of this variance cause a significant
detriment to this particular piece of property
and that's what I want you to look at and
that's what we're looking at in this
particular property; that's what I'm looking
at, I'm not speaking for the Board, but if
they would ask me, that's what I would ask
them to do and I know that the majority of
them are going to look at it on that basis. I
hope that answers your question.
MR. LOBO: In other words, you're taking
a calculated risk because in order to build
you have to dig and you have to create
foundation, you have to remove the soil --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. LOBO: -- and you have to create an
unnecessary, who knows, detriment to the area
that could render that beach more susceptible
to damage in case of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me -- again I
apologize.
MR. LOBO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me go a little
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bit farther. We suggest to the applicants in
any construction on the waterfront area that
several things be taken into consideration.
Hay bales be placed, okay, toward the
waterside, that's number one. Number two, we
suggest that no heavy equipment come in,
nothing more than a modest size backhoe with
rubber tires, no bulldozers, no anything that
runs on chains or has anything but rubber
belts or rubber tires on it. Okay and that
the cement that is required to produce this
room adjacent to the deck, okay, be done in a
modest fashion so that no weight is added to
the loading of the bluff that sits toward the
rear of this house and that's what we do and
we've done it on every single application
since the law has come into being and where we
started, specifically, was with swimming
pools.
Okay, because we have a garden variety of
swimming pools in several areas of the Town
and the one I'm thinking of right now is in
Greenport in Pebble Beach where we have a
phenomenal amount of swiraming pools on several
levels of bluff, okay, much higher than this
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particular piece of property. So we have done
these things, okay, never in any way to hazard
-- cause a hazard to the bluff in construction
of something that intrudes into that 100 foot
setback. I just want you to be aware of that.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to add
something. I think, if I understand you,
you're speaking to the question of consistency
and what you could expect.
MR. LOBO: Absolutely.
MEMBER SIMON: I take that very, very
seriously and we do. For example, it would be
very embarrassing if we had made the kinds, we
as a Board, had made the kinds of decisions
that the speaker before you spoke of and now
we seem to be changing. That, obviously,
didn't happen, but the idea is there are two
ways of getting it wrong. One is to be quite
arbitrary and capricious is the term in the
law when we get sued in who we give what to
and the other one is to be mindless and
mechanical regardless of the particular
circumstances and I do agree with you that we
need to justify every time we do something and
should be able to distinguish what we do from
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
some other precedent just so that it is not
just different but relatively different. So
it's a different thing. We are trying, we're
learning individually if some of us have said
things that indicated the way we were leaning,
five members of the Board will vote on this
and it is a matter of taking this and taking
prior consistency into account and the
difference is if you were talking and
mentioned that what happens in the nation and
deregulation, if we made a decision that
people don't like with regard to relaxing a
regulation, it isn't because the government is
ignoring the regulations, but it is
scrutinizing, as Gerry would suggest, each
case on its own merits so it's not descent
into lawlessness, which I guess is the really
scary fear that we all have when things don't
seem to make sense.
I take your comments very, very seriously
and I think it's part of the general problem
and I think that you've helped us clarify this
whole issue, I think, at least I hope so.
MR. LOBO: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Sir, could we just have the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
spelling of your last name?
MR. LOBO: L-O-B as in boy, O.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to briefly
add a comment, which is that people are not
necessarily aware of the fact that the Zoning
Board operates by State law and the State
requires that we evaluate every application,
every site individually. Now, that doesn't
mean -- as Michael said on it's merits -- that
doesn't mean that we don't look at other
decisions that are related to it or precedent,
but the Board of Relief is unique in a sense
that the law requires us to use five specific
criteria to evaluate each application for an
area variance, not just that we make it up as
we go along cause we feel intuitively this is
a better decision or not and we have to write
these findings with compelling arguments to
justify variances and if we can't justify
them, then we don't grant them, but the Board
of Relief is here to grant relief from the law
when such relief is justified based on these
criteria.
So I wish you had come before the Board
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
of Relief, sir, who spoke previously, because
we may have been able to interpret things
differently based on the merits of your
particular application, in so far as we may
have had jurisdiction over what you were
trying to do, we may not have had
jurisdiction. The Building Inspector would
determine that.
So it's important sometimes that the
public understand {a) we do take all these
comments very seriously, but we take our work
very seriously because we affect the rights of
property owners and we have to balance those
rights as property owners with the rights and
the welfare of the community and the
environment and those are the boundaries that
we operate within legally. So I just want
there to be some understanding as to how and
why we make the decisions we do and you're
most welcome to come to our public meeting in
which we deliberate over the potential
decisions one way or the other.
You may have heard us ask applicants,
would you accept alternative relief, which
means, that's too big a variance, you know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
can we make it a smaller variance, can you set
it back farther, are you willing to do that?
They don't have to be willing, we can deny it
or we can provide alternative relief and they
can accept it or not, you know, but we try to
collaborate and cooperate in a reasonable way
and in a very open way, which is why these
public hearings are great because it gives
anyone concerned an opportunity to speak about
whatever is on their mind.
MR. SCHEMBRI: I'd just like to say one
thing. He mentioned just about
environmentally the footing for the foundation
of that 16 by 18. The other alternative was
to take the entire house down and start from
scratch and I don't think he realizes what
that does environmentally digging out the
entire site. Right now, it's a footprint
that's on a -- right now half that house sits
on a crawl space. There's probably a 15 by 15
little cellar in the entire house. For me to
take out that entire structure to gain 4,000
or 5,000 square foot house it could be on that
footprint, but I didn't alter what was there
because I tried to keep the integrity of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
community and that's what he was talking about
keeping what is in place and I think by taking
material out to do a full cellar like my
neighbors do have in all their homes and
excavate that type of site there would be tens
times the amount of affect to the environment
in that sense in hauling out in dumpsters
what's there.
You know, we just
minimal impact on what
what we had and that's
tried to keep the
was there and work with
-- realistically that
room is only like 290 or 280 square feet, 16
by 18, that's what the room size is, you know
and we're going to do a crawl space under
that. So we're not gonna really excavate a
foundation for living area down there, it's
just going to be a 4-foot trench and leave the
material on site, it's not going anywhere.
Just so he knows.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We just want you to
be aware though that we are going to request
that you use the lightest machinery possible.
MR. SCHEMBRI: Correct. We'll use a mini
excavator. Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. SCHEMBRI: That's my own personal
home. I'm going to be there for the rest of
my life, I want it to be right, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak?
Yes, ma'am.
MS. IANELLI: My name is Deborah Ianelli.
I'm the neighbor on the opposite side and,
yes, I really do appreciate that Peter kept
the original house. I, too, have an original
house right next door and I'm actually very
close to it. The houses are very close
together so my concern is actually resale
value of my home if that's going to disturb my
resale value and also I'm concerned about my
quality of life out here.
I came out here like everybody else to
enjoy the environs, the outside, and I'm
concerned that this kind {inaudible) a new
precedent that people can now just start
building out 15 feet, 10 feet and I'm more
concerned that it's just very close to me and
I'm also concerned about a flagpole issue that
a flagpole is allowed to be -- I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
understand how a flagpole is allowed to be
constructed in the back of a view that has a
view of the Long Island Sound.
How is any of this allowable?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just explain
something to you? Unless you have scenic
easement over anybody's property --
MS. IANELLI: A senior --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A scenic easement,
you cannot --
MS. IANELLI:
build their homes?
So that's
how everybody can
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You -- you know,
your -- this may sound a little strange, but
your view is guaranteed for your boundary
lines. In order to have this view or that
view, you need to have a scenic easement over
that property. Okay, and I have to tell you,
in the history of this Board that I have been
on for 28 years, I know of one scenic easement
that is in Mattituck, okay,
that is call Matimar and it
easement by the neighbor in
swimming pool. That is the
it is at a marina
is a scenic
the rear over the
only one I have
ever seen, okay, only because the person who
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
is the neighbor owned the property and
proceeded to make sure that they had perfect
view over that swimming pool for the
continuation of the period of time that they
owned that piece of property.
So it is extremely important that you
understand that whatever your neighbor wants
to do, he or she can do it, okay, based upon
the Codes of this Town, and that's basically
it, but we hear waterfront issues, water view
issues, excuse me, all the time and
unfortunately we have to come out with that
standard, I have to come out with that
standard statement. I'm free to have
everybody else offer a similar statement, I'm
not laughing at the situation, I'm being
honest with you.
I always have to be careful with the
words "I" and "we", okay, because although I'm
speaking for the Board as being a member, I am
only one member of this Board, regardless of
Chairperson or not Chairperson and I don't
control the Board in any way. We are five
different independent thinkers and we do it in
a democratic process.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS. IANELLI: May I just show you a photo
of Google Earth?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Can you speak a little
louder?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we just mark
that as being yours?
BOARD ASST.:
MS. IANELLI:
separates us.
Okay.
(Inaudible)
hedge that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, sure.
MS. IANELLI: (Inaudible) here and more
here. My other neighbor Mike has a lot more
room and we are just very close right here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Did you ask
the purpose of this room
Oh yeah. I understand why
Mr. Schembri what
was?
MS. IANELLI:
he's doing it, to make his house larger.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. What the
purpose of the room that's closest to your
house cause I know there's a garage, a two-car
garage on the site.
MS. IANELLI: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What did he tell
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you?
MS. IANELLI: It's a bedroom.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a bedroom,
okay. Alright, is there anything in this,
during the hearing that we could assist you in
having that hedgerow continue between the two
houses and have it continued to perpetuate or
can more greenery be placed there? Tell us
what you would like to be done.
MS. IANELLI: I don't know how far out
it's going actually --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to present
that to the Board. He can offer a statement.
MS. IANELLI: I don't remember if it's
going past the hedge line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's pull
the survey back out.
MS. IANELLI: This is the side -- no it's
not.
MR. SCHEMBRI:
BOARD ASST.:
the hedge line.
It's on the inside.
This is on the inside of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, it appears
that you have total control over most of the
hedgerow based upon the survey.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS. IANELLI: Correct, that's
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
our
Okay, my
concern that
any type of live
screened now. I
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. IANELLI: It's already screened, but
it's still -- we're going to be very close
together.
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in screening, greenery,
plantings.
MS. IANELLI: It's
realize it's screened.
question to you is, are you of a
the construction of this bedroom will cause
some problem with you and that you needed
additional screening on that side between the
two houses, between your property line and Mr.
Schembri's?
MS. IANELLI: I'm concerned that it's
just so close.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but tell us what you would like us to do or
what you'd like Mr. Schembri to do and we will
consider it.
MS. IANELLI: I'm not a builder.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking about
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
BOARD ASST.: I think she's asking that
it be at least 15 feet to meet Code; is that
what
is.
you're asking?
MS. IANELLI: I
don't
know what the Code
BOARD ASST.: The Code is 15 feet.
feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
The garage was there;
MS. IANELLI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. So
MS. IANELLI: It could be made
The Code is 15
is that correct?
it's --
into the
room, which has been done up the block.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. When I was
there the garage was open and it is strictly a
garage. Okay, there's no question about it.
Okay.
MS. IANELLI: Oh yeah --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure anything can
be done. I think based upon the size of the,
which Mr. Schembri testified to, the size of
the basement, I think it's going to be a
garage, okay, at this particular point. But,
at this particular point, is there anything
else that you --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MS.
resale value --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
alright.
MS. IANELLI:
close together.
IANELLI: I'm just concerned about
I understand,
-- and the houses are very
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
Okay, thank you. Yeah, can we make this
part of the record?
MS. IANELLI: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, thank you
very much.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak?
Hearing no further comments, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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136
ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6253 - Highland House FI, LLC
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-121G, based on the Building Inspector's
November 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed alterations to an existing
detached garage with (nonconforming) apartment
above. The reasons stated are that "whenever
a nonconforming use of a building or premises
has been discontinued for a period of more
than two years or has been changed to a higher
classification or to a conforming use,
anything in this article to the contrary
notwithstanding, the nonconforming use of such
building or premises shall no longer be
permitted, unless a variance therefore shall
have been granted by the Board of Appeals."
The Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval
is based on a Pre-Existing Certificate of
Occupancy application inspection report dated
10/27/08 that states that the existing
detached garage with apartment above has not
been used in years. Location of Property:
Oceanview Avenue and Heathulie Avenue, Fishers
Island; CTM Parcel 1000-9-11-7.12."
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
Mr. Hamm?
MR. HAMM: Stephen Hamm, 38 Nugent
Street, Southampton for the applicant.
I have a memorandum and letter from a
neighbor that I received this morning if I can
MEMBER SIMON: Um-hmm.
MR. HAMM: I just want to give a little
background. First, to point out Highland
House FI, LLC which is the owner of the
property is actually just an estate planning
device not an investment company. It's owned
by the Lawrence family, Susan and Peter
Lawrence who have been long-time homeowners on
Fishers. Mrs. Lawrence is here today, she's
an experienced restorer of historic buildings
and you can see on the cover of my memorandum
that's a photograph taken in the 1920s that
shows this carriage house in the foreground
and the main house in the background.
The property itself was in the Husband
family, Elizabeth Husband, since the middle of
the 1950s at least. Mrs. Husband died in
2002. Affidavits were submitted, which are
also attached to my memorandum, showing that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
the carriage house, the apartment which is the
top floor of the carriage house, a three-
bedroom apartment was used continuously from
prior to 1957 up until her death, which was in
2002. The property was then in the Husband,
not technically in the estate, but the estate
was being settled. It was in a trust that she
had created during her lifetime. Some family
members used it from time to time, but
apparently it fell into disuse. They put the
property on the market, Webster Bank, the
Trustee of the Husband Trust put the property
on the market in 2008. Well, I shouldn't say
put it on the market, what they did was very
unusual. It was a sealed bid process. They
offered it to about eight potential purchasers
and there were no conditions that were allowed
other than clear title and there was a
financing contingency, but there were no
contingency, for example, determining that the
apartment use had not been abandoned. In
fact, Mr. Lawrence spoke informally and we're
not holding anyone to this, but he was advised
that use would be okay; however, following the
closing we applied for the pre-existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
certificate of occupancy and we're here
because it was turned down due to that
particular section of the ordinance that was
quoted.
The main point that I would like to make,
and then if you have questions for Mrs.
Lawrence, she'd be happy to answer them, the
main point here is we have a 4.56 acre parcel
of property which is close to 200,000 square
feet in an R-80 zone requiring a minimum of
80,000 square feet. This property is capable
of being subdivided under applicable -- there
is a small easement area that will not be
counted, but the lot yield for this particular
piece of property would be two lots;
therefore, by granting a variance here you
would not be setting a precedent that someone
could come in and say, well, you gave this use
on one lot and therefore would be held to
something that you would not want to, have to
explain later.
My clients are very much interested in
keeping this property intact. They have a
large extended family, they do not want to
subdivide it, which would be their option if
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
they could not get this apartment use
restored. I think that's the points I'd like
to make in introduction and if I can answer
something or Mrs. Lawrence, then could you let
me know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you saying
you'd trade-off the subdivision for the
purposes of leaving this house intact?
MR. HAMM: They would stipulate that this
structure, if allowed, they would allow it or
if it could be they would convert it to a
conforming use, if they were to subdivide in
the future. I wouldn't want to foreclose that
in perpetuity and they have no intention of
doing that, but if that were part of the
stipulation --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in effect what
we're saying conforming
size and square footage,
the lot lines.
MR. HAMM:
in reference to the
but without drawing
That's correct. I may be
wrong that Southold ordinance at one time
allowed a second structure in a single-family
zone if there were enough lot area. Now I
could be confusing that with another
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
ordinance, but --
MEMBER SIMON: It's another Town.
MR. HAMM: Okay. Maybe that was a Health
Department regulation.
MEMBER SIMON: You might have confused
that with a proposed legislation, which is
making the round in some circles, but --
MR. HAMM:
be -- you know,
neighborhood is
the memorandum,
So the answer is, yes, you'd
the character of the
-- I addressed these issues in
but clearly the structure is
there. My clients have committed a large
budget to restoring both the main house and
the carriage house assuming they can use it
for what its historic use has been and you --
I think you received something from Mr.
Hobson, one of the neighbors, who would be
very much impacted if a much larger second
dwelling were built on, through subdivision,
on this property. I just handed in one from a
neighbor to the south whose property itself
had been subdivided pursuant to a variance
that he granted 20 or so years ago for lot
area. That has two houses on it.
So this is, you know, this is a large
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
lot. You're not going to be doing anything
that someone will say -- will come back to you
and argue that this is a precedent for them
doing the same thing. These facts are very,
probably very -- I shouldn't say very unique,
but close to being unique. Unique in the
variance sense anyway.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, just a couple of
questions. I take it your argument as defense
against the precedent objection is to give a
word, uniqueness, and not just the uniqueness
of the size of the lot, but also the historic
nature of the building and the argument being,
the argument that you might make, I suppose,
is that it would be terrible to see this
property go unused or totally empty, which
would be under the doctrine of waste, would be
a problem. That's the type of argument I'd
imagine one could make.
MR. HAMM: Yes. I address the various
issues in that memorandum, including that,
yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. HAMM: And they would not, if they
don't get the apartment use, it makes more
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
sense for them to convert this to a conforming
use and then do a subdivision and put up, you
know, probably what would be a much larger
dwelling so you'd end up with three structures
on this property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a
question? Is this the Hay Harbor Club next
door?
MR. HAMM: It's the golf course, yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you aware of
the time that we agonized over the Hay Harbor
Club application through a series of hearings
that, you know, it was close to McDonald's in
Mattituck I have to tell you.
MR. HAMM: Or Southampton Luraber maybe?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, or
Southampton Luraber.
akin to you.
MEMBER SIMON:
It might be a little more
A little bit more
substantive question is though that is this an
application for a use variance?
MR. HAMM: Well --
MEMBER SIMON: Somewhere in the
application it talks about it and the
conditions are fairly explicit and they're a
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lot harder to meet.
MR. HAMM: I understand and I addressed
that in case you consider that, I'd prefer
that you consider it to restore a pre-existing
nonconforming use, whatever category that
falls under; however, I would --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I would suggest, I
mean, the application seems to be ambiguous
between those --
MR. HAMM: Well, that's just it and I
addressed the harder issue because I think the
issue, if you're going to consider it an area
-- the ordinance doesn't say a use variance or
area variance, it just says a variance.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. HA_MM: So you can disregard my
arguments if you're willing to concede that
it's an area variance in which case,
obviously, our burden is --
MEMBER SIMON: Well --
MR. HAMM: -- much less.
MEMBER SIMON: -- also, arguably it would
be a matter of interpretation as to whether it
fit under area variance rules or use variance
rules and we are the body that decides
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interpretations.
get that clear.
questions.
So okay, I just wanted to
I don't have any further
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to confirm some
facts here, from the elevations it would
appear topographically that part of the garage
is below grade. The entrance to the garage
(inaudible) and apartment is at grade. I'm
looking at this drawing in particular.
MRS. LAWRENCE: Hi, Susan Lawrence. I
live in Darien, Connecticut.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I'm just trying
to get a sense of the character and topography
and --
MRS. LAWRENCE: That's right. The lower
level has two stables and an area for
carriages to be stored.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and then there's
an apartment above, which is actually at grade
on one side, anyway.
MRS. LAWRENCE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
involves no alterations to
footprint, I mean, perhaps
MRS. LAWRENCE:
the proposal
the exterior or the
exterior but no --
Correct. No, that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
right.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay. So basically it's
MRS. LAWRENCE: It's upgrading systems.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just going to
remain the way it is but being upgraded
(inaudible) and modernizing and so on.
MRS. LAWRENCE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, it's
been that way for 75 years, I suspect if
somebody had owned the property and absolutely
abandoned the use, that would have been one
thing, but given the way the law works and the
length of time it takes to probate, especially
if there's a trust involved and so on, it
seems to me that that set of circumstances is
what created the abandonment as it were or
lack of use. So I think that there is some
argument to be made there. Certainly it's
much easier to approach this, should the Board
decide to, not as a use variance, but rather
as a restoration of preexisting nonconforming
use that the abandonment was a consequence of
legal action and not of disinterest in its
continuation of its use. Having said that, I
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don't really have any questions, I think the
application speaks for itself. I'll just read
your submission carefully and see what --
MR. HAMM: (Inaudible) is the much more
difficult use variance issue, but they're
similar.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Lawrence can I
ask you a question?
MRS. LAWRENCE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, Mr.
Hamm, I apologize for doing this. We thank
you for coming in, it's very nice of you to
come.
Depending on which way this Board goes on
this particular issue, it seems that this
building is very important to you on the basis
of a total renovation, not an architecturally
changed total renovation, but a renovation so
to speak, is there any chance in the future
that it would become any more conforming in
reference to it's setbacks to the property
lines? Would it be moved in any way?
MRS. LAWRENCE: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because of --
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that's the reason why I'm asking the question,
because of the lower half of the building --
MRS. LAWRENCE: Right. You would lose
the architectural integrity (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so at all
times that building has to remain in its
present location. The reason why it was so
interesting to me to ask that question of Mr.
Hamm, excuse me, I wanted to see the Nay
Harbor Club from that driveway, from that
building. Okay, some seven, eight years ago
when had that application and the amount of
times we had hearings on it and the amount of
people that came over. So I am aware of the
building now and that's basically what is
unique to me. That
property.
MRS. LAWRENCE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
is a beautiful piece of
It is.
It definitely speaks to
character of the neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean when you look at
these larger estates, which are becoming fewer
and fewer, and greater density and subdivision
and so on, it really transforms a historic of
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the entire area.
MRS. LAWRENCE: My theory is if we
subdivide it that somewhere along the line
it's going to get split up out of our family -
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. LAWRENCE:
True.
-- that a much larger
probably inappropriate structure would be put
up.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
control it.
MRS. LAWRENCE:
You couldn't be able to
No, we couldn't control
and in a dense space there would be three
buildings, so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whatever was by right
the zoning, which is a lot of different
things. Yeah.
MRS. LAWRENCE:
MEMBER OLIVA:
questions.
Right.
I don't have any
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. LAWRENCE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone
else who would like to -- Mr. Hamm?
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MR. HAMM: Well, if you do put a
condition on it, I just -- I don't want to
foreclose forever the possibility of
subdivision, but we would convert it to a
conforming use as a condition to any future
subdivision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you give
us some examples of conforming -- excuse me
MR. HAMM: Storage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- basis to --
MR. HAMM: Storage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, no. Okay,
but why don't you give us some suggestions in
reference to the type of conditions that --
MR. HAMM: Oh. Sure, I'll submit them in
writing to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible). Okay.
MR. HAMM: Yeah, I'll submit them in
writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HAMM: Yeah, I'll submit them in
writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you do that?
MR. HAMM: I would be happy to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a little
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more
you bring in.
MR. HAMM: It is.
month.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
unique than most of the applications that
I'll see you next
I guess you will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else would like to speak for or against this
application? This is the Highland House on
Fishers Island, it's 6253.
Seeing no hands and hearing no appeals
out of the audience,
closing the hearing,
MEMBER OLIVA:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision --
Second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- based upon the
information that we're going to receive form
the attorney or subject to. I offer that as a
resolution.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6258 Paul Katz
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15{F), based on the Building Inspector's
June 23, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
a proposed accessory garage at a setback of
less than the code-required minimum of 50 feet
from the front yard lot line, at Mattituck
Creek, 100 West Mill Road, Mattituck; CTM 113-
Is
speak?
there someone here who wishes to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Dwyer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: As I understand it,
you're proposing a 30-foot by 23.4-foot three-
car garage at 37 feet front yard setback. You
are on a corner lot. There are a lot of
wetlands on the property that are having an
impact upon where you can place things on the
property. So other than the front yard
setback, the footprint of the garage and the
height is fine, it's to Code and both within
the zoning Code. The accessory structure is
alright for the size of the lot.
Okay, I'll make some comments and ask
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
some questions
like to say.
MS. DWYER:
after you tell us what you'd
Nancy Dwyer on behalf of Paul
Katz. Mr. Katz is here with me today.
We are limited, because of the contour of
the property and also the wetlands on the
property, as to where this garage can be
placed. We have explored different options on
the property of what we can do and we feel
that this has been the easiest place to place
it. Less intrusive on the wetlands than any
other place, it is approved by the DEC because
of withholding the 10-foot contour line to the
bluff and that has basically determined why we
have found this place for the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright
receive an exemption from the
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
letter?
MS. DWYER: Yes,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
garage.
and we did
LWRP.
Did you receive that
I did. Thank you.
Well, the land slopes
toward the creek and the garage is primarily
on the flattest portion of -- the proposed
site is on the flattest part.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
154
MS. DWYER: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There really aren't any
other houses that are particularly in view, so
I don't see any impact there particularly.
Let's see. You know, the right-of-way is
essentially fairly wide and it doesn't have
other houses, it just leads to the water.
MS. DWYER: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you know who has --
whose right-of-way -- who owns that right-of-
way?
MS. DWYER: No, I don't. Actually, it's
the Town, I believe it's the Town of Southold
that owns that and from last I saw it, it's
pretty heavily wooded.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. DWYER: So I don't think it's used
too often.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Too often.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's a drainage
pipe underneath the road that runs from the
back wetland area and the purpose of that is
to drain into the creek, which of course --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's really not
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much draining anymore because it's really not
too much of a wetland anymore.
MS. DWYER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Well, anyway it
wouldn't affect the right-of-way, it's on the
other side of the house. So and you would be
entering the proposed garage --
MS. DWYER: He would be entering the
proposed garage from the West Mill side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
is not by the right-of-way.
the other side of the house.
Yeah, but the site
The site is on
MS. DWYER: No, it's on the
side of the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait, wait.
right-of-way
Oh,
yeah.
Okay, I'll just pull my survey out. I got it
back here. I just want to confirm this cause
I have to write this. Oh yes, sure. You'll
enter off the right-of-way, there's a driveway
down and there's West Mill.
This proposed garage is
unheated?
MS. DWYER: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
only.
to remain
For cars and storage
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MS. DWYER: Just for cars and storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No plumbing?
MS. DWYER: No plumbing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only the utility of
electricity.
MS. DWYER: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No other questions.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: No questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, except {inaudible)
taken that house because you're right opposite
Luthers Road there going up, otherwise, I can
see -- would it be just about where that car
was parked?
MS. DWYER: Um --
MEMBER OLIVA: I think that's the
flattest area there.
MS. DWYER: It's the flattest area where
we're proposing the garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no way any
car could be parked there because it's totally
wooded right now.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There are flags
there.
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MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, no questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not answering
for you, Nancy, it's just that I know the
piece really well.
MEMBER SIMON: Just the place that is now
being used as a car park, that's on the other
side, right? That's on the north side.
MS. DWYER: It's a horseshoe driveway
basically.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right, right. That
will stay?
MS. DWYER: That will stay.
MEMBER SIMON: And will the garage be
used for putting
things?
MS. DWYER:
cars in as opposed to other
For putting the cars.
MEMBER SIMON: Rather than have the cars
where they are.
MS. DWYER: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. I have
no questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see if
anybody else has any questions, Ms. Dwyer,
don't leave until we close the hearing.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
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for or against this application? Anybody like
to speak against the application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING %6281 amended, 6243 -
Kevin B. and Jeanine Faga
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, this is a
continued hearing, Faga #6243 and 6281.
Mr. Butler, would you state your name for
the record, please?
MR. BUTLER: Jeffrey T. Butler, here on
behalf of Kevin and Jeanine Faga. Mr. Faga is
here with me.
Just to refresh the Board's memory, we
were here last month with the denial -- a
denial was written for the 75-foot setback,
new construction within the 75-foot from the
existing bulkhead and we then recognized that
the proposal also included extending
vertically some walls that were already within
the side yard setback. So I had to get the
denial rewritten and we're here back today to
show you that we've amended the plan to push
the addition back as far as possible, as we
had discussed, and to include both aspects of
the denial.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of the issues
here that came about is, is this house going
to be lifted at all?
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
to that
MR.
yes.
MR. BUTLER: We have to come up eight
inches to comply with flood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the
existing house, which is shown as (a) existing
one-and-a-half story residence to be renovated
to a two-and-a-half story residence, will be
lifted eight inches and then everything that's
attached or conforming to that will be lifted
same amount; is that correct?
BUTLER: To the best extent possible,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. BUTLER: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Right.
What do
that, that's not a sarcastic statement
MR. BUTLER: Well, in the --
MEMBER OLIVA: Lifting the house.
MR. BUTLER: In the course of
construction --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right?
MR. BUTLER: -- the plan is, like I
stated last time, the foundation is, that's
there, is sound.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BUTLER: The intent is to pick up
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
floor system. There is some remedial work
that needs to be done to the floor system
that's in place now.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. BUTLER: Renovate the existing
structure on top of that once the new -- once
the foundation is lifted, the floor system is
lifted up. The front part, as we talked
about, is about three feet of the existing
front part of the house, front being on the
water side, which is being cutback so there's
foundation work that needs to be done there,
so that we're back on the opposite side of the
Coastal Erosion Hazard Line.
MEMBER OLIVA: And FEMA.
MR. BUTLER: Excuse me?
MEMBER OLIVA: You're raising it because
of FEMA, too, right?
MR. BUTLER: Yes. Yeah. So that's --
that's the plan.
MEMBER OLIVA: What is the composition of
the foundation that's there now?
MR. BUTLER: Cement block.
MEMBER OLIVA: Cement block.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah. We're also filling in
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the basement, too, there's a basement there.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, you'd also have to
fill that in because of FEMA, with sand.
MR. BUTLER: To be FEMA compliant as
well.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
courses on the top to
So you'll just be adding
raise it.
MR. BUTLER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What kind of ground
disturbance will there be?
MR. BUTLER: Um, there'd be ground
disturbance where the new addition is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BUTLER: And there'd be ground
disturbance seaward of that for the three --
four footings to carry that porch that we
moved back.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. BUTLER: There'll be ground
disturbance where the existing house or
foundation is being cutback and that all lies
landward of our hay bale and silt fence line
that we have.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But here's the
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question, let's assume that in a catastrophic
situation you damage the foundation. We give
you a decision which says in place, in kind.
Okay and for some strange reason you have to
either put spread footings in or something
else that would require you to come back here,
that's a concern that I have --
MEMBER OLIVA: I do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: --
so inclined to grant you this
if this Board is
variance based
upon some of the suggestions that you have
made for us that we have made to you and, I
mean, filling in a basement is a little
problematic, but, you know, assuming that
wouldn't be much of a problem, but lifting may
be a problem.
MR. BUTLER: There's a Bilco door.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BUTLER: For access down there now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. But, I
mean, once you fill it and you raise it you're
going to put a cement barrier over the top of
that sand.
MR. BUTLER: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you foresee any
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problem in a damage situation of taking those
"I" bolts and cutting those off and lifting
this structure up that would damage the
foundation that would cause you a problem with
the Building Department on a nonconforming
situation?
MR. BUTLER: I, like I said, I've been
and looked at the foundation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. BUTLER: The existing foundation --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hope you think
that this is all -- this is not
counterproductive, this is (inaudible).
MR. BUTLER: No. Absolutely, I
understand exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BUTLER: This is a sketch I've put
together for you.
BOARD ASST.: That's the foundation area,
right. Okay, thank you.
MR. BUTLER: Yes. [Not at microphone.]
The blue represents, the hash marks
(inaudible) on the (inaudible), that's what is
being removed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BUTLER:
here is the new.
blue.
Right.
Okay, the other hash mark
It represents -- that's the
MR. BUTLER:
existing which is
eight inches.
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. BUTLER: The yellow is what's in
place, the blue on top of the top hash mark is
the new wall that's being poured in place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
The yellow represents
going to be raise one block,
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. BUTLER: Alright. I've inspected
this foundation on the inside, I'm comfortable
with this supporting the new structure. The
area, the only place that could be (inaudible)
is out of here on these walls. We did some
excavation on the outside and saw the same
block structure. So it's reasonable to assume
that it's going to be capable of carrying that
load that's there now. If the situation comes
up, we have an opportunity in filling this
basement in to do some pinning for spread
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
footings, if required, on the inside without
disturbing the existing foundation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's what's
so unique about this particular application
and that's why it's a little intriguing to me
to be honest with you.
MEMBER OLIVA: How deep is the basement
that's there?
MR. BUTLER: I think it's 6-6, I think.
MR. FAGA: Good afternoon, I'm Kevin
Faga.
MEMBER OLIVA: Hi.
MR. FAGA: The main structure is well
under 6 feet.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, it doesn't classify as
crawl space that's why it needs to be filled
in. So it's --
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BUTLER:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BUTLER:
Okay.
But it's not 8 feet.
It's not 8 feet.
No, it's probably about
6'6". I remember ducking under the girders.
MEMBER OLIVA: I could get under there.
MR. FAGA: Me too.
MR. BUTLER: But you won't be able to.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, if the Board
is so inclined to grant everything that you
are requesting at this time, how would you
suggest that we handle the aspects of
something being faulted so you don't have to
come back from the Building Department?
MR. BUTLER:
is damaged in the
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. BUTLER:
If the existing foundation
Yeah.
-- course of lifting and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You've have to cut
the pins off. I mean, you know, this is not
just -- it's just not laying there, I'm sure
it's pinned down.
MR. BUTLER: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I mean these are
all issues. Blocks can blow out and you can
have a fault in a wall and the reason why I
ask you this question we had a similar
situation on the Sound, which you may or may
not be aware of, and in this particular case
the footings were substandard, so they had to
replace an entire wall. Okay, and I'm not
saying that's the case here, okay, but --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Be aware.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Be, you know, we
have to make you aware of that because there's
a possibility this is going to hold up the
whole process again if that situation happens.
MR. BUTLER: If we damage beyond repair
in the course of construction, the existing
foundation, how do we protect that with your
decision, is that the question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. BUTLER: I don't know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we could simply
say that structural repairs to the foundation,
existing foundation, as needed are permitted
so long as they are done within the existing -
MR. BUTLER: The existing footprint.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Footprint of the
existing foundation because you're not going
to be replacing those walls. I mean, the
house is not (inaudible).
MR. BUTLER: No, but there may be some
remedial repair.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm
concerned about.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
repair --
BOARD ASST.:
MR. BUTLER:
Right. The remedial
(Inaudible) beyond repair.
For instance, Gerry --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
house itself?
BOARD ASST.:
MR. BUTLER:
The structure of the
No, the foundation.
-- to make this further
flood compliant we have to cut in vents.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you're going to
do that with a saw.
MR. BUTLER: We're going to do that with
a saw, but, yes, in the course of removing and
lifting, if the sill plate pulls up a block,
you know, that block would have to be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Replaced.
MR. BUTLER: -- replaced.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But that's okay, you
know, we can write it so that reconstruction
or replacement is permitted so long as it's on
the existing footprint of the existing --
MR. BUTLER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And it doesn't make
the foundation not structurally sound.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible).
MR. BUTLER: Right and, like I said, with
the footings, I can handle that on the inside
based on the fact that we're filling this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I think it's
a great idea.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah.
So we --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'm just -- I
have to tell you that I'm just using this as a
model or a learning experience for future
applications, not necessarily this one, but,
you know, future ones that we need to address
because we think we have everything covered
and then --
MR. BUTLER: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- something
happens. We certainly don't wish this to be
the case --
MR. BUTLER:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. BUTLER:
No, I understand.
We had one similar to this.
And we've all seen things
happen on the construction site that --
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171
(tape change)
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that sounds
good. You're okay with that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. (Inaudible) to do
spread footings, you know, if they're handled
within the volume interior volume of the
existing foundation, there's no additional
land disturbance. It's fine.
MR. BUTLER: Correct and we do have
footing work to do within that boundary
because they have, like I said, some remedial
floor structure work to do and new walls
coming. That's why we have some new footings
in that space anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That you have to put in
anyhow.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the addition.
MR. BUTLER: Plus there's the addition,
correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: Which also will be just a
crawl space?
MR. BUTLER: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, we'll
ask the question, is there anybody else would
like to speak in favor or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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173
ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
HEARING %6224, 6100
Realty, Inc.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Romanelli
Ms. Mesiano, could
I ask you to come up here for a moment? This
has nothing to do with this -- maybe it does.
We'll open the hearing first, but I need you
to verify something.
BOARD ASST.: This is the Romanelli
hearing %6224, 6100 we're recording.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct.
Would you verify the fact that this is
the newest plan that Mr. Romanelli has before
us?
BOARD ASST.: That's the May l0th
submission that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the May l0th,
okay. Would you kindly lay that down there on
the table? Would you verify that these are
the changes to be made for that building for
us? You are the agent for Mr. Romanelli?
MS. MESIANO: Yes. These are the
proposed current plans to the (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, why don't you
lay that down there right next to it?
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're going
to take approximately a three to five minute
recess on this and we're going to let the
public take a look at these so that everybody
sees that there is a change in this plan. The
major change is, of course, the front building
which has gone from 100 feet in width to, I
believe, 75.
Okay, would you like to state any other
changes that you actually may be aware of?
MS. MESIANO: Yes. Another change is
that what we identify as building %3 has been
brought forward or northerly and that setback
which is now 75 feet is now, I think, in
compliance with rear yard and, let's see, we
reduced the size of the front building. We
changed the setback of the front building.
Under the Code, we would have been allowed a
63-foot setback using the offset of the
properties within 300 feet; however, we have
the setback of 76 feet and again we've reduced
the size of the building by 25 percent. The
75-foot setback (inaudible).
MR. ROMANELLI: The rear building and the
front building are the two main ones.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Romanelli.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah,
and commented.
BOARD ASST.:
That was Mr.
Mr. Romanelli is here
For the tape.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So building #1 has three
offices not four?
MS. MESIANO: Yes. They've given up one
of yield, which as you're well aware will have
an impact on the (inaudible) of the property
(inaudible), but that's a concession Mr.
Romanelli was willing to make to try to
achieve this type of plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay -- go ahead
Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So there'll be a total
of five contractors on site?
MS. MESIANO: One, two, three --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Previously, I think
there were six.
MEMBER OLIVA: Three I see here.
MS. MESIANO: Three in the front and one
in each back building.
MR. ROMANELLI: One in each back
building.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we urge the
public that are interested in this to, you
know, page through this,
we realize that this is
very quickly, you know,
take a look at it and
a situation which is
a presence that you
have to look at, but it's an ongoing --
MRS. MESIANO: It's a work in progress.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a work in
progress and it's ongoing. At the culmination
of the hearing, you know, we're going to again
say that we have not gotten the SEQRA approved
yet by the Planning Board so that may even --
we may have a quick final hearing on this
sometime in the future or we may do something
else based upon this, but we urge you to look
at this plan and corament on it, if you're so
inclined.
So we'll take a four- or five-minute
recess while you're doing that
comfortable looking at it, not
Mesiano, but the public.
so you're
you Ms.
MS. MESIANO: I'll say, too, if anyone
has questions I'd be happy to answer them.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you stand
there then and do that?
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
I'd be happy to answer, if anyone has a
question about the plans, I'd be happy to
explain or clarify.
BOARD ASST.:
them.
MS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
break.
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
record.
After they've reviewed
During the break.
During the break.
Well, when we return from
We want them on the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
on the record.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
Yes, we want them
Also I just want to
mention we just received this at 12:30 today
from Mrs. Genovese. So that's a copy for your
file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
in mind -- what, go ahead?
BOARD ASST.: No, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to take a recess for about
Okay, bearing that
You go ahead.
I'll make a motion
four and a half
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minutes.
MEMBER OLIVA:
So moved.
(OFF THE RECORD)
to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Motion
reconvene.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Mesiano, if
you would, during the presentation, it doesn't
have to be immediately at this exact second,
reiterate that -- we have everything down
there, I have to get those up. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Could you reiterate
again the situation of the difference between
the original application and this one with the
changes that were made so that we --
MRS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- can again ponder
upon those changes?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes. My name is Catherine
Mesiano on behalf of Romanelli Realty.
The most recently submitted site plan,
which I believe was submitted on 3/10 and is
dated 3/3/09, shows some modifications made
pursuant to the Board's reactions to our
initial submission. The first modification
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
consists of, the first modification I'll
mention is with respect to the setback of the
front building to the main road. Under the
Code, I believe we're required a 100-foot
setback; am I correct? However, whether it be
100 or some other number, the Code goes on to
say that relief is granted if you can
demonstrate the setbacks of buildings within
300 feet. Very roughly stated, I won't go
into the decimals and the tenths, but very
roughly stated those measurements were taken,
the calculations done. We could have set this
building back at about 63 feet from the front
lot line; however, we have now shown it at 76
feet.
The building originally submitted, or the
plan originally submitted, for building %1 was
for a building that was 100 feet in width.
We've reduced that by 25 percent. We're now
proposing a 75-foot structure that would have
the potential to house three units. Our other
principle change is that building %3 has been,
it's location has been modified and it is now
setback 75 feet off of the rear lot line,
which is a compliant setback. So we've
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
eliminated the number of variances requested
and we have eliminated the extent of the
variances requested with regard to setback and
SO on.
Do you have questions before I go any
farther?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we'll listen to
your presentation.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay. Again, I've
reviewed the Code that pertains to this many
times. I've heard the comments that the
neighbors have made and I've heard some of the
comments that have been made in general by
this Board and other Boards and I just want to
make several statements that pertain to this.
First of all, when we look at the Code
for limited business district, it clearly
states and I'll paraphrase, I don't need to
read everything, the purpose is to provide an
opportunity to accommodate limited business
outside of a hamlet central business area or
business corridor. The Town is concerned with
the character of the area and trying to
maintain the rural character and I think I
should stress that character is more of what
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
it is much more so than rural in and of itself
because this community, this area in general
has made a transition from 25 or 30 years ago
from a very rural community to a rural
appearing community because, even though you
have agriculture and you have farm stands and
you have wineries, these are not little
homegrown businesses, these are big business.
These are multi-million dollar ventures and
while from the road they may appear rural in
character they are anything but rural when it
comes to their bottom line. So while you
don't have the appearance of Route 110 in
Farmingdale for example or Melville, you
certainly aren't dealing with a small hometown
operation, you're dealing with big business
and at the same time by reaping the rewards of
those big businesses in the dollars that your
tourists and people who avail themselves of
these companies spend trying to maintain the
character. So I think its being rural is
something that's something that's overlooked.
It's not really, in my mind, it's not rural
anymore that a rural character, it's certainly
big business.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
I would like to continue, you're
concerned about design features and so on.
Well we're attempting to present plans to the
Board that whose appearance is in keeping with
other structures in the area. I think if you
looked a little west of this property on the
north side of the Main Road where the new
Bridgehampton Bank is and the doctor's office
in that vicinity, there are some newer
buildings that are attractive and they have a
rural character. They're certainly not rural
in nature, but their character is the
comfortable look that I think this Town is
trying to preserve.
You're talking about uses, existing and
future uses not to detract from surrounding
uses and I think it's necessary to point out
that this, it's been said, at the risk of
repeating myself, this is a limited business
property; however, when one buys a residential
property that abuts business property one has
to expect that if that property is vacant or
nothing is happening on that piece of
property, one has to expect that there is the
possibility in the future something may be
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
done with that property that's as of right
under the existing Code. It's a buyer beware
issue. If one is so fortunate to purchase a
piece of property where nothing occurs for
years and years and we have the status quo,
well we're lucky if we enjoy a view, if we
enjoy some kind of a scenic vista, we're
lucky. We don't get to own those things,
Those are gifts and those are things that we
can appreciate for as long as we can enjoy
them, but we cannot expect to sacrifice
another person's property rights for yet
another's ability to enjoy a vista or the
scenery strictly because well I've always had
that view and I want to maintain it. I think
that the underlying tenet of property rights,
the rights inherent in the ownership of
property should be kept in sight.
You talk about the uses looking to
generate low amounts of traffic. Well, if you
look further down in the section of the Code
under limited business and you look at the use
regulations and the permitted uses, I would
say that Mr. Romanelli's proposed use of this
property which, as we discussed earlier, would
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
have a -- we're looking at a, did we say, a
six-unit, six potential tenants, let's say,
and if we have six potential tenants and
they're contractors of various types under the
permitted types of functions in the Code, each
would have maybe two or three employees during
good times. During these times, they're going
out of business, but each may have two or
three employees. So if we have six or seven
tenants who have two or three employees, we're
talking about maybe 25 vehicles twice a day
Monday through Friday, typically. Whereas if
we looked at the permitted uses and we looked
at for example funeral homes, well we know
that we can have hundreds of cars on any given
day twice a day late at night. You know,
people complain about oh, I hear the doors
slamming and, you know, this, that and the
next thing, but you think about the intensity
of the permitted uses. If you were to look at
a professional office, it may or may not. A
funeral home you certainly could have much
more traffic. Restaurants, you could
certainly expect to have far more traffic. If
one were to put a winery in this location,
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which is a permitted use, you might not have
that traffic everyday, but it's right along
winery row and you would certainly be looking
an intensity of traffic much greater than what
we envision this project to generate at its
completion.
If you look further into the Code, it
talks about uses permitted by special
exception of this Board. Clearly, this use
that Mr. Romanelli proposes was contemplated
since it's clearly listed as a use permitted
by special exception. It's not a use that's
been designated strictly to an industrial
area. It was certainly contemplated as was an
antique shop, an arts and crafts shop and a
gallery. So it's not as though this was
something very creative that we came up with
and said, well, gee, let's run it up the
flagpole and see who salutes. It's clearly a
use that was contemplated in the formulation
of this Code albeit a permitted use a special
permit use, but it was considered.
Another point that I want to make because
we talk about the size of the property and
this property, the zoning calls for an 80,000
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square foot lot, but we do have this pre-
existing parcel. There is a provision in this
section of the Code that allows the Planning
Board to grant a waiver for a lot as small as
40,000 square feet. Now, we haven't gone that
route yet, we haven't gotten that far into it
with the Planning Board because we're sort of
log jammed with a chicken/egg situation which
we're trying to overcome with the SEQRA
determination, but the Code does say that with
a special exception or a special waiver from
the Planning Board a 40,000 square foot lot
could be allowed. We have in excess of 60,000
square feet.
Okay, we've talked about the average
setbacks and the relief that we could enjoy
from that and I will just fortify, I believe I
said 100 feet and the Code does say structures
shall be set back at least 100 feet and then
(B) of that section goes on to say except
where you can demonstrate adjacent parcels are
less. So I think with respect to those items,
I have a clear picture of where we're going.
A couple of other items that should be
mentioned, historically there were seven
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buildings on this property. There are now
four buildings on this property. We're
proposing to put three buildings on the
property. We didn't set out to play games
with the buildings that were there and try to
fix them, raise them, bump them out a little
bit and say well, they're pre-existing we're
just using what's there. We didn't go that
route, we didn't want to even attempt that
type of a scenario.
a plan and this plan
in one building, but
We were forthcoming with
could easily be executed
I think that one building
would be in contravention of all of the
intentions of this section of the Code.
How would one come up with a building of
that many square feet? 20 percent is allowed
of that 63, so that's in excess of 12,000
square feet in a single building and I do not,
I want to make this very clear, I do not put
that out as a threat in any way because Mr.
Romanelli does not want to build one large
building with the burden of trying to make it
appear rural in character. The campus style
plan of this property does help it retain that
flavor. Like I said, there were seven
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buildings, there are now four buildings.
We're looking for three buildings. We meet
all of our parking requirements. We do not
exceed the lot coverage requirements. We do
not exceed height requirements.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
May I just follow up --
Yes.
-- to one of the things
The property is 63,338
you said? A question.
square feet.
MRS. MESIANO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, the Code allows
one use per 80,000 square feet.
MRS. MESIANO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The interpretation is
that we have three buildings with three
distinct uses on a substandard lot size, which
would actually produce a 221 percent
relaxation of the Code requirement in terms of
a variance. How do you address that?
MRS. MESIANO: How do I address that? My
first response is what constitutes a use? If
this were one building it would be considered
a building with multiple tenants and that one
building would constitute a use. I realize
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that there are three structures that are
proposed that are not joined by any structural
manner; however, the final outcome is the same
as whether it would be one building or three
separate buildings because the use is as a
contractor's yard. The use is not as a
plumber and a woodworker and an electrician
and a whatever, the use is as a contractor's
yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But Cathy, you still
have a 63,000-square-foot lot.
MRS. MESIANO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One building for a
contractor's yard is supposed to be on 80,000
square feet.
MRS. MESIANO: Well, I understand that,
but this is a preexisting lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand that, too,
but the intensity of use being proposed --
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the three buildings -
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which constitutes
three uses on a 63,000-square-foot lot when
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80,000 per building is required, is absolutely
huge. Now, I grant you that the building is a
permitted use by special permit, without a
doubt, that is perfectly understood.
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The part you didn't
mention in terms of character of the
neighborhood was residential and rural.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay. Yes, I did try to -
MEMBER WEISMAN: And there are
surrounding properties that are residential
and this --
MRS. MESIANO: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and this -- the
intent of the purpose of this Article of this
Code is to -- the additional uses much
generate low amounts of traffic and be
designed to protect the residential and rural
character of the area.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you address the
residential nature?
MRS. MESIANO: How do I address the
residential nature? Okay, any of the
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residential property would, of course, be
screened from this by the buffering that's
required under the Code. The buildings are
not two-story, they're not high obtrusive
buildings. We're not proposing any noxious
uses and, as I said earlier, when one buys
residential property that is adjacent to
business zoned property one has to assume the
risk of that knowing that there's a chance
that there could be, is/could be commercial
activity on that parcel. I don't think the
burden is clearly on the owner of the LB
property when the buyer beware standard should
be applied to anyone purchasing residential
property. If you know that you're adjacent to
commercial property then you have to know that
there's, if it isn't already there, there's a
potential for something else other than a
house to be there in the future.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I try a slightly
different approach?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just follow up
and then I'll stop and others can (inaudible
questions for later.
How far along in the SEQRA process are
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you with the Planning Board?
MRS. MESIANO: The Planning Board sent
this out to Nelson and Pope last week and a
young lady from Nelson and Pope was at the
property yesterday.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so clearly, you
know, traffic impacts and so on are best
evaluated by SEQRA review.
MRS. MESIANO: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which you're undergoing.
MRS. MESIANO: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know -- the
Planning Board did send, and I know you have a
copy, comments to the Board of Appeals on
October 22nd of last year.
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Requesting that we
consider the traffic generated from the
proposed use as well as the proposed design
features that will impact the surrounding
residential properties and rural character of
the area. The conclusion was, their cormments
to us, which I want to just mention for the
record, in case you or anyone else would like
to address them, was that, number one, the
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intent of the limited business zoning district
is not being met by the proposed intensive
commercial use of the property, not the use,
but the intensive use. Two, the subject
property is substandard in size. Three, the
application is for new construction that
should be designed to fit the lot size. Four,
the proposed project requires substantial area
variances and any hardships claimed are self-
created. You already addressed that you've
eliminated some of those variances and, number
five, the applicant can easily comply with the
Code zoning and bulk schedule requirements
thereby eliminating the need for variances.
You would, of course, still need a special
permit for the contractor's yard.
So I'll just leave it at that for the
moment if you want reply or --
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
I'll wait. I'll wait.
Okay.
I would approach this
differently. Under the reading of the Code
that you suggest and probably correct me, the
King Kullen Shopping Center is one use; right,
cause it's one building with (inaudible) it's
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all commercial use.
mean by use, right?
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
I mean, that's what you
Yes, um-hmm.
Okay, now if King Kullen
were totally wiped out by a fire and was going
to be replaced, and the -- they decided that
instead of having one building they did it
with three buildings; would it still be one
use with three buildings? That's what we're
talking about here.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes and I -- not having a
chance to look at it from that perspective
earlier and really mull it --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, I know. It's a
hypothetical.
MRS. MESIANO: -- over, I would have to
say because the intent of the tenancy, the
intent of the businesses that are conducted in
here, whether there units are joined
structurally or they're separated by five
feet, ten feet, twenty feet, whatever the
number may be, the "use" is the same because
in a shopping center everyone goes to the
shopping center.
MEMBER SIMON: It's commercial use. It's
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an over --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the same use and
(inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON: But it is -- I mean, it's
commercial. What I'm saying is the notion of
use that we operate --
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
notion of shopping.
Yes, right.
-- is as broad as the
Shopping is a use even if
there are many, many businesses.
MRS. MESIANO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: And so in other words, the
word use doesn't mean anything. Residence is
a use because you could have 50 houses, that's
all the same use. So that means that the
notion of use really kind of drops out, what
then you have to deal with is the question of
buildings, numbers of buildings and that if
you take the analogy of residential then
numbers of buildings matter and here you got a
problem of three buildings, forget about use,
three buildings, which require 80,000 square
feet each. You're going to have three
buildings in 62,000 --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 63,000.
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MEMBER SIMON: What? Three buildings in
63,000. So whether you do it by (inaudible)
the notion of use, you've still got a problem.
Then you, if you forget about that, you still
have a problem of three buildings where only
one is supposed to be. I mention these things
because together these kinds of considerations
seem to add up to the rather general
qualitative conclusion, which we hear from the
critics, is this is a whole new ballgame.
Putting up multiple buildings on a lot which
isn't big enough for multiple buildings much
less the question of whether it's use or not
or whether how broadly we define use. I think
this is a challenge and it's a challenge that
very well perhaps be met, but it needs to be
met, I believe.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay, I need to -- what
I'd like to respond is that although this is a
63,000 foot preexisting parcel in a zone that
requires an 80,000 square foot --
MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me. Have you ever
seen a non-preexisting parcel?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, actually.
MEMBER SIMON: I mean it's a --
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MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
debate that point?
Yes, actually.
Okay.
Yes, actually.
Shall we
In this instance, granted we have a
63,000-square-foot parcel in a zone that would
otherwise require an 80,000-square-foot lot.
The bulk requirements under the 80,000-square-
foot zone requirements are met with the
exception of the front setback, but I think
I've addressed that and I've crossed that off
the list. I don't have to meet the 100 feet,
I can be as close as 72 -- 62 or 63 feet,
that's the one that's gone away.
Our parking, we meet all parking
requirements even though this lot is 63,000
square feet. Under the zoning Code,
particular types of a use is assigned so many
parking spaces per square foot. Well, this
calculation has been done. We have ample
parking for the square footage that's
proposed. Whether the square footage is one
continuous structure or three smaller
structures, we've still accomplished these
things. The only area where we have been
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unable to satisfy the requirements under the
bulk schedule is the 20-foot setback and the
width of the front building bringing it down
from 100 to 75 where 60 is required, I think
is a substantial concession especially
considering it's not just a concession in the
number of lineal feet fronting on the Main
Road, it's a concession in the profitability
aspect of the project because I know they're
trying to make significant changes, but we
still are a Capitalist society; making money
is still okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have absolutely no
disagreement with that, but the justification
for 221 percent variance to create an economic
yield on this substandard property is without
precedent. Nowhere in our reasons for
findings do we have economic profit. If the
property was purchased in order to realize a
certain amount of profit and the yield has to
be that substantial to do so, it was probably
the wrong property to purchase because how do
we justify a 221 percent variance.
MRS. MESIANO: I'll go back to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: How do you do that?
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MRS. MESIANO:
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. ROMANELLI:
I'll go back to 280-42.
I'm on the record, right?
Yeah, sure.
Can I use this mike?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. ROMANELLI:
go ahead.
MRS. MESIANO:
You are John --
John Romanelli, but Cathy
Okay, I just want to
respond to that by saying that the Code allows
for a minimum of 40,000 square feet when
single and separate ownership since 1989 can
be established. I had the title work done, I
can establish that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but that would be
of the Planning Board, not the Zoning
a waiver
Board.
MRS. MESIANO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that has to do with
subdividing. Okay, that has to do with --
MRS. MESIANO: Subdividing?
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- yield. Well, the
40,000 is a waiver of the 80,000 square foot
in terms of site planning, site plan approval.
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be for one
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
use and we are still talking about -- instead
of 80,000 for a building we're talking 40,000
for a building. Okay, that's still not 221
percent even if -- and it's not something we
can grant either. I mean you might discuss
that with the Planning Board, but the Zoning
Board has no jurisdiction over that waiver.
So for us we have to try to figure what more
than 200 percent variance looks like.
MR. ROMANELLI: I think you're looking at
the numbers wrong and I don't use economics as
a reason for any of it. The economics are my
problem, I agree with you there. The -- I
guess where my frustration comes with this is
I look at uses that are allowed, which is to
say a restaurant, a winery. If they were one
use, if it was a one use building and they
were going to make the two back buildings
accessory uses those buildings could be there.
I could have that same square footage, you
could have more traffic, you could have more
impact on weekends, holidays, that kind of
thing. I look at this project as a square
footage and maybe that's where I'm going
wrong. I'm looking at it as square footage of
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what would be allowed on my lot coverage on a
substandard lot of 63,000 square feet, what's
my lot coverage going to allow me to do and
that's the approach I took on it. So maybe
I'm looking the numbers differently, I should
work on more of this 200 percent variance that
you're looking at. I say my lot coverage is
my lot coverage.
I took, originally took the first
approach of one big building that handled my
lot coverage, handled my parking, handled my
drainage, and did everything that was required
of me. I looked at it, in all honesty, as an
ugly project. You know, I went back and said
let's keep the character of the neighborhood,
the look of the street. Of course, I came in
originally with 100 feet planned on the front
road. After hearing everyone's complaints I
went back, I remeasured and said alright, you
know what, 100 feet might be too big of a
building for that location, but I still took
everything down as my lot coverage. So I take
this approach of this variance of how do you
make this justification? Well, the
justification is one building could go --
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could cover the same square footage I'm
proposing in an ugly sort of format in my
mind. It would be a long narrow building,
entrances on the side. Neighbors would have
entrances they would have to see. Coming east
or west, you would see the side of the
building cause the property would make it to
be deep onto the piece. So east and west you
would now see visual impact of whatever was
going to be there, whether it be a winery,
whether it be a restaurant, whether it be a
contractor's yard, whatever this is allowed in
this zone.
So the original approach and design was
to go with the character, take my lot
coverage, which I'm allowed I'm under it, just
for the record I'm under the lot coverage,
break this property up into three separate
buildings. If you know the design of the
property, it's narrow in the front, it opens
up in the back. The two buildings were moved
towards the back to get away from the road to
open it up and get it away from visual impact
from the street. We know we had a variance on
that rear property line where we were very
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close to the neighbors in the back who are
opposed to the project. So, okay, so how did
we do that, so we turned the building a
quarter of a turn gave 75 feet off the back
property line and let it be -- I'm not sure of
the exact numbers but if this was a one-use
project and that garage in the back was going
to be built as an accessory use I believe the
accessory building could be 25 feet from the
property line, I think is the number, so by
asking for a principle use I'm going to make
it 75 feet from the property line.
So that rear neighbor is really gaining
50 feet of buffer from a building because I'm
asking for a principle use. So to me that's a
benefit to them, okay. By shortening the
building we softened the look of what the Main
Road is going to look like and how big this
building is going to be. You know, we're
trying to keep the porches in the front and
the big garages in the back. Okay, that was
the whole -- that was -- really the whole
visual impact was to soften the blow from the
street east and west, so again how do we come
up with this whole justification for 200
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percent lot coverage and -- by lot coverage,
by what does one building allow me to do and
how many square feet of building can I have on
my substandard lot of 63,000 square feet and
then break that up into three smaller
buildings so it's not so grand. That's how I
justify it.
Again, and I want to bring up again that
back building that is now 75 feet off. If I
bring this project back as a one-use project
I'm asking for an accessory building. Okay, I
come back and say, if I don't get it as a
three principles, then I'm coming back and
saying okay, give me one use. I'm probably
going to keep the same plan turning those
other buildings into accessory use buildings
and they become 20 feet of the back property
line. You know, I'm looking at the best case
scenario for everybody.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What do you use the
accessory buildings for?
MR. ROMANELLI: Accessory to the front
use. You know, and let's be honest, I'm
trying to be really a straightforward approach
on this in the Town.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. No I --
MR. ROMANELLI: I could, you know, I
could say they're accessory uses, take over
the front building and rent the back out and
who would know the different five years from
now.
AUDIENCE MEMBERS: We would.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right and then the Code
Enforcement --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The neighbors will.
MR. ROMANELLI: They would know and the
Code Enforcement is going to come and now you
have to justify it turns into a battle and
back and forth, right? So we're really taking
the approach of let's avoid that conflict.
Let's look at what common sense --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You would never do that.
You're an upstanding, well-respected
businessman in the community.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that.
Right. That's correct.
And you wouldn't do
Right, but --
And you wouldn't do
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MR. ROMANELLI: I'm -- my thought process
was really common sense on the neighbors, on
the surrounding neighbors. To minimize really
what is there and what could be there.
MEMBER SIMON:
on your position --
MR. ROMANELLI:
sympathy.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay, I'm very sympathetic
I don't need the
-- is reasonable.
I just need your vote.
I know. But I guess the
question is, what exactly are you going to
invite us to vote for that we could live with
and here's the problem. If the Town Code were
amended in such a way that a project such as
you're envisioning were allowable in that LB
zone -- is it LI?
MEMBER OLIVA: LB.
MEMBER SIMON: LB zone and that maybe the
layout was multiple buildings or one huge
building, for the law maybe that wouldn't made
any difference, but the big question is and I
think this is it, is your neighbors don't want
anything as grand as that. They don't want
another King Kullen Shopping Center in their
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midst.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: And what you're trying to
do is to make it look as little like a King
Kullen Shopping Center as you possibly can and
to try to get by the relevant Boards. I don't
know -- there are a lot of balls that are
being held in the air at this time. Under
what description are we going to have a
project like this, which many people in the
area aren't very happy with and (inaudible) it
or dividing it from one building or to many
buildings whether that does it or not, I don't
know, but it's a mess.
MR. ROMANELLI: There's not really --
listen, there's three variances. The one for
the front building 75 feet over 60, right?
The other variance is for 20 feet on the one
building on the west rear side. I think we're
20 feet from the property line. That'd be it.
MEMBER SIMON: No --
MR. ROMANELLI: And then the contractor's
yard special exception, okay, which I don't
think is out of the realm.
MEMBER SIMON: Wait. What about the size
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
of the buildings?
MR. ROMANELLI: The buildings I'm under
lot coverage. I guess your issue is how do
you justify three buildings versus one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's where you're not
MEMBER SIMON: There's where the 220
percent variance comes in.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
than lot coverage.
MR. ROMANELLI:
Yes. It's different
Okay, so I like I said,
let's spin common sense on it
push those buildings together,
do I fit the lot coverage; yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're not
lot coverage, that's --
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. ROMANELLI:
to put logic on it.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. ROMANELLI:
what you're saying,
and say let's
add them up and
talking about
It's not lot coverage.
-- the same --
But that's where you need
Yeah, but it's not --
No, no. I understand
but I'm saying maybe we
need to put logic on it and not say --
MEMBER SIMON: But logic is always going
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to be constrained by the law. I mean logic
may give you a recipe for writing new laws,
but as a Board that's what we're not doing.
MR. ROMANELLI: There you go. There you
go.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can't write new law
here, you realize. If something is wrong, you
know who you have to go talk to.
I want to ask for a point of
clarification on the Notice of Disapproval
which says proposed building #2 at 75 feet --
MEMBER OLIVA: 75 feet from the rear
property line, number 4.
MRS. MESIANO: Number 5?
MEMBER OLIVA: 4.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, where is my -- Yeah,
number 4, variance for proposed building #2 at
less than 75 feet from the rear property line,
alright it's 40 feet that was what it was.
BOARD ASST.: It was 40, now it's 75?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, not that one. Not
that one. Building #3. I'm looking for the
side yard (inaudible) --
BOARD ASST.: The side yard #3.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right -- no that's on
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that building. Building %2 is notice --
MEMBER OLIVA: 75 feet from the rear
property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I thought there was
something that said --
MEMBER SIMON: I think there were two is
what the trouble was.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it is. No, no, I
just looking -- I just have to study this
cause there's some things that are the same as
before and I'm looking for --
MR. ROMANELLI: The one building
classified as building #2, the one on the
rear, the west one really hasn't changed from
the original submission.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's the one -- I see.
BOARD ASST.: Building #2 still needs a
rear yard variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but it says here,
variance for the proposed building #3 at less
than 20 feet from the side lot line --
BOARD ASST.: Originally, when they
applied, the new plan shows it different.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Shows it at 20.
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BOARD ASST.: So now he --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you need an amended
Notice or not, I don't know. In other words,
I don't understand why point number 5 is the
way it is because your site plan shows it a
20-foot side yard --
BOARD ASST.: No, it says the plan has
been amended and they did not obtain a Notice
of Disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. That's all I'm
asking. I just -- so it's not consistent.
BOARD ASST.: Right, exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Notice is not
consistent with the site plan.
BOARD ASST.: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I wanted to
point out. Cathy, do you see what I'm talking
about? Building 93 side yard setback at 20
feet, which is conforming.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, if it's a new
Notice it still calls it out as nonconforming
-- as less than --
MR. ROMANELLI: As nonconforming.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- 20 feet.
BOARD ASST.: I think I know what
happened. They did submit the amended plans
to the Building Department for --
MR. ROMANELLI: Right, you're right. We
submitted the (inaudible) plan going --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I'm pointing that out
so you can do that just, you know, get it up
to date cause --
BOARD ASST.:
paperwork.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
easier.
MR. ROMANELLI:
out cause it's one
Just to clean up the
-- it makes life a lot
I'm glad that was pointed
less variance to get.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Yes, it is.
MEMBER SIMON: This is a constructive
suggestion, if it works. Meaning that you
would like it if it works in order to get more
than -- in order to satisfy the one use for
80,000 square feet, then you have to call the
whole thing one use. Everything there is one
use and then would you be suggesting that
maybe we should interpret the Code as saying
that the one use doesn't preclude having
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
multiple buildings all that have the same use.
MRS. MESIANO: That is the point I was
trying to make.
MEMBER SIMON: Is it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, use is not defined
by activity.
MEMBER SIMON: Use has got to be defined
by something.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Use is defined by
activity relative to what special exception
will allow. You know, in other words, you
can't use it for a disco, okay, but --
MEMBER SIMON: For an entertainment
center it has six discos.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In the case of the way
it's -- that's the Mallen decision, that's a
different thing. In the case of a -- this
situation, the Notice has been determined
based upon the size and the number of
buildings relative to the size of standard
lot. It isn't the activities taking place
within them say --
MEMBER SIMON: Except for number 2, which
says it can only be one use.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand that, but
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I'm saying --
MRS. MESIANO:
use.
MEMBER SIMON:
what I'm saying.
The Code does not define a
Yeah, exactly. That's
MEMBER WEISMAN: But those Codes are
written differently than for a commercial
property in a limited business.
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use.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the square footage
that is defining the use.
MEMBER SIMON: No.
MRS. MESIANO: It only defines use with
respect to square footage, but it doesn't lay
out clearly what constitutes a use.
MEMBER SIMON: You're absolutely correct.
MRS. MESIANO: And I think that's the
point I've been trying to make --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: -- is that we disagree on
what a "use" is. I'm saying a shopping center
is a use. When you go to the Rite Aid, you go
to the dry cleaners --
BOARD ASST.: Well, that's retail.
MEMBER SIMON: I know that's a retail
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MRS. MESIANO: Right, I'm not even
referring to the Code, I'm just referring to
the conceptual aspect of the way the
neighborhood, the community uses a facility
and in this --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail we can do is
interpret it based upon the Building
Inspector's Notice of Disapproval. Now we can
overturn it --
MEMBER SIMON:
too.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MESIANO:
We can interpret the Code,
We can interpret --
That's -- I think that is
-- now that we've striped away a lot of the
superfluous matters and we've gotten to the
essence of the question, it boils down to the
same stumbling block that we've come to is I'm
saying, I've been saying this is a use, it's a
contractor's yard and whether a contractor
uses all the space for his entire operation or
the electrician, the plumber or whatever, uses
the use for their individual operations the
"use" of the property is one classification
and I studied the Code, I dug through the Code
extensively looking for something that would
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
tell me what is a use.
MEMBER SIMON: It doesn't tell you.
MRS. MESIANO: It doesn't tell you, so I
think what I'm asking you for is for you to
tell me what constitutes a use.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I will say this about --
MEMBER SIMON: Let Linda (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: This is one other thing, I
asked the Building Department when they
originally wrote your disapproval how they
determine it to be three uses when there are
three buildings. Are they principle buildings
or are they three separate uses and the answer
that was given to me was because there are
different tenants, they are separate
businesses and, therefore, separate uses.
MEMBER SIMON:
arbitrary --
MRS. MESIANO:
BOARD ASST.:
Yes. That's a rather
That's a very --
I'm just telling you what
their answer is. So -- and I don't think we
have a formal interpretation --
MRS. MESIANO: Right. Yes, that's --
BOARD ASST.: -- of what a use is
anywhere.
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MRS. MESIANO:
presumptive.
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
speak for himself.
MEMBER SIMON:
That's arbitrary and
We could --
Well, he's not here to
Maybe a role that we could
play, what we could talk about, is namely
since the Code is at best unclear about what
counts as a use and most of the things that
have been suggested don't really -- use does
not have to do with land. Use has to do with
use. So we can, if that's true, then we could
conceivably interpret the word use in the Code
in a way that gets rid of that problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute.
MR. ROMANELLI: Don't make any more
problems.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The issue before us is
not whether it's three different kinds of
activities, okay, it's all one type of
activity --
MEMBER SIMON: Use, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Code was written to
avoid intense impacts. It's intensity of use
that we're talking about. When you have three
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
buildings on a substandard lot, which is so
over the top in terms of the size of the
variance as written by Code and interpreted by
the Building Inspector, that's a big problem.
The Code was really written to avoid intense
impacts. No one here is disputing the fact
that a contractor's yard is a permitted use by
special exception. If the intensity of
activity on that property --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but intensity has
nothing to do with multiple uses. It could be
MEMBER WEISMAN: But we aren't arguing
about multiple uses.
MEMBER SIMON: But then where does the
intensity come in?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's by virtue of the
size of the building and the size of the lot,
that is how intensity is handled. It's
impacts, it's the principle of -- planning
principle.
MEMBER SIMON: But if it were a principle
use would that capture it? If it really were
a building --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would still need a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
variance because if you're proposing that many
is okay
square feet, even if the lot coverage
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- then what you're
going to have is a large building on a small
substandard lot and it's still going to be
less than 80,000 square feet. You're still
going to need a variance.
MEMBER SIMON: You can't have it both
ways.
MR. ROMANELLI: I need a variance for --
to have a building on a substandard lot?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. ROMANELLI: Okay, so I need a
variance for a building on a substandard lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
big for the lot.
MR. ROMANELLI:
A building that's too
Okay, basically that's
what it's for. So now let me just run this by
you. If one building was built that met all
front yard, side yard, back yard setbacks
needed no variances on any of those matters,
where does that leave us? Does that leave us
with a building still too big?
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh, yeah.
MR. ROMANELLI: And though your lot
coverage would be under the minimum lot
coverage allowed by the Town?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MESIANO:
MR. ROMANELLI:
Yeah.
That's right.
Then why --
So you can regulate the
size of the building by the substandard lot
rules --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MESIANO:
MR. ROMANELLI:
MRS. MESIANO:
Yeah.
Then why does not the --
Then can we?
-- lot creation Code
220
come
A lot
preexisting
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MRS. MESIANO: And we can demonstrate
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preexisting -- a nonconforming,
lot.
into play, the lot merger and creation?
is a piece of property is recognized as a
legal lot and there are several tests that set
that forth and we can provide a single and
separate search that shows this property as a
single and separate lot into the 20s and
further back. It is a, if you will, a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that it is a nonconforming preexisting lot and
I think, at this point, I have some confusion
as to why this lot isn't recognized as a legal
lot.
lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is
MEMBER SIMON: It is a
MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course
recognized.
legal lot.
it's a legal
MEMBER SIMON: It's just
what the constraints are.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just
for the zoning.
MR. ROMANELLI:
a question of
substandard
I'm a little confused on
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because that section
says you need one use
of the Code, the 280-24A
per 80,000 square feet, the way it's been
interpreted over the years while I've been
here is that you're allowed one use for a lot
that's legal single and separate up to a size
Can I just --
Yes.
Okay,
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MESIANO: It's substandard for the
zoning, yes, but I applied all of the
requirements of the zoning --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
of 80,000 square feet.
MRS. MESIANO: Up to.
BOARD ASST.: So your lot is legal for up
to 80,000 square feet for one use.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: So if you have a 50,000
square feet lot, you're allowed one use
without a variance.
MRS. MESIANO: Right.
BOARD ASST.: So once you go over that,
the 80,000 per use kicks in.
MRS. MESIANO: So this brings us right
back to our prior discussion because we're
saying what constitutes a use if --
MR. ROMANELLI:
asking for one use.
MRS. MESIANO:
MR. ROMANELLI:
We have one use, we're
-- if we rented --
Up to 80,000 square feet
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but how many square
feet is the use actually occupying?
MRS. MESIANO: Suppose one company came
in and said I'll take the whole thing? That's
one use.
BOARD ASST.: Well, that's what I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
saying, the Building Department has been
interpreting it differently over the years and
no one has asked the Zoning Board for an
interpretation on
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
it.
Right.
So --
That's why we're here.
So I think -- intensity,
it's not a matter of intensity per use. If
you had six obnoxious uses, that would be very
intense. So it's not the number of uses that
triggers the intensity problem, it has to do
with the size of the enterprise and that's
supposed to be regulated by the square footage
MR. ROMANELLI: Or lot coverage.
MEMBER SIMON: Not lot coverage, but
actually --
MRS. MESIANO: In this case --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, okay.
MRS. MESIANO: -- it's regulated because
we're under the lot coverage that's the 20
percent lot coverage. We're under that, we
meet all of the bulk requirements except for
the 40-foot setback from the rear lot line of
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building %2 and the width of building %1. So
I think after all is said and done we've come
back around to the same point. What
constitutes a use? So I'm hearing that if one
tenant occupied the property that wouldn't be
a problem because it's one use; however, if
four tenants occupied the property, it would
be considered multiple uses; am I hearing that
correctly?
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
I'm puzzled about that --
And I know, again --
-- actually.
I know, again, going back
to the Building Department, but forgive me for
saying so, but I could stand at that counter
until I got older and grayer and I wouldn't
get an affirmative.
BOARD ASST.: Well, there's --
MEMBER SIMON: I would just say the
Building Department is no better than the Code
that they apply.
BOARD ASST.:
else, too, though.
because it abuts a
Well, there's
In that zone
residential
concerns that there might be a
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something
they wanted,
area there were
lot of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
intensity of use. So they said 80,000 square
feet per use when you require a special
exception on vacant land, especially. Okay,
it didn't require a special exception. You
could, I believe, you're allowed to have a
dwelling in a LB zone -- I don't have the Code
book. If you have a half-acre lot, you can
build on your lot, but once you go into the
special exception criteria that's where they
tightened up with that 80,000 square feet and
also the use of the property, I believe that
we don't have anything to say what the
activities are and who the one contractor use
is for all three buildings.
MRS. MESIANO: So then I could put a
winery in there or a funeral home that would
be a far more intense use with far more
traffic generated, music on weekends, parties
MEMBER SIMON: Apparently.
BOARD ASST.: If that's what the Code
says.
MRS. MESIANO: So I could do that.
BOARD ASST.: The Code could say that.
MRS. MESIANO: So I could do that --
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions and then we should see what
audience wants to --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
See if there's other
the
Okay. Starting on
my left hand side, your right hand side, who
would like to speak over here?
Say your name for the record,
sir.
MR. GENOVESE:
rear property.
please,
You know, I appreciate everybody wanting
to try to do something good for us since it
took me three months to even have John move
two oil trucks that were in the way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We had already
discussed that, let's move on --
MR. GENOVESE: But the bottom line is,
you've got -- you know, I grew up in
construction, okay, you've got a construction
yard that's going to end up to be a junk yard.
That's my problem. So you've got three
buildings on this and it's like putting 5
pounds of you-know-what in a 1 pound bag and
then you're going to have -- this lot is going
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to turn into a junk yard. I mean, I can't
understand how the Town could even approve
this when I got disapproved of a 10 by 14 shed
on two and a half acres of property. I just
don't understand it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. GENOVESE:
to me.
Well, I don't -- I
It just doesn't make sense
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't understand
when you're referring to a junk yard, I've
seen other properties that Mr. ROmanelli --
MR. GENOVESE: What happens is these
construction companies, these plumbers,
whoever is going to come in here --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Inside the
building, not outside.
MR. GENOVESE: Outside the building
behind the building it becomes a junk yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, inside.
Inside. We are putting a restriction on it
inside the building only. Only automobiles
that are plated or trucks that are plated
outside the building. That is it.
MR. GENOVESE: Not going to happen.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I'm telling
you that's the restriction on it.
MR. GENOVESE: It's not going to happen.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's Code
Enforcement's property.
MR. GENOVESE: Because when I was going
to buy this property, that property was vacant
and the property to the
and I asked the Town, I
plus the Town Board --
left of me was vacant
asked the Zoning Board
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You didn't ask me.
MR. GENOVESE: -- what's going to be in
here. It was a different Board, okay, what's
going to be -- this is 10 years ago I'm going
back. Well the property that Mr. Romanelli
wants to develop that's going to be restricted
to a grocery store, retail, boutique, nothing
in the construction level. That's exactly
what it is. If that was told to me 10 years
ago, with all due respect to the fine attorney
over there, I wouldn't have bought this piece
of property because I don't want to hear, I
don't want to see construction trucks coming
in. I don't want my kids to be around it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir. Sir, we
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didn't zone the property.
another Board.
MR. GENOVESE:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. GENOVESE:
It was zoned by
That's what I'm saying.
By the Town Board.
No, what I'm saying is I'm
answering a question when the attorney said
well residents should understand that when
they're buying a piece of property it comes
with (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. GENOVESE: I understand that and I
asked those questions then and that's what I
was told.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no doubt
that at times property is rezoned. There is
no question about that, okay, I don't know if
this property has changed its zoning since the
implementation of the master plan in 1989. I
have no knowledge if it has changed subsequent
to 1989 because I can tell you it's when we
went from 7 zones to 17 zones, okay, and I
suspect it has held that validity since 1989.
So I don't know who you spoke to, I'm not
questioning who you spoke to, I believe
exactly what you're saying, okay, and in 1989
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
was the last significant update of this Code.
It started in '87, we went through the
revisions in '88 and it was voted on and put
into law in 1989 and that's the story. That's
all I can tell you.
BOARD ASST.: I believe it was zoned
business because '89 also.
MR. GENOVESE: I'm just telling you what
was told to me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I believe you.
No, I understand.
MR. GENOVESE: Okay, cause I wouldn't
have spent $125,000.00 on a piece of property
knowing it was going to turn into a junk yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. GENOVESE: Okay?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand and I
believe you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The difference is the
Code spells out a long list of different kinds
of uses that could be done by right, in other
words as long as you meet all the setbacks and
bulk schedules and lot coverage and so on.
They don't have to come before this Board. A
contractor's yard is one of the few things
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
that's listed in the Code that can only
happen, even if they met all the other
requirements, say it was one building and it
was less intense use or whatever, they still
need a special permit from this Board.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what you're arguing
against.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In other words it's not
an automatic given this contractor's yard can
go there. It has to come before this Board,
the Board has to hear it and grant a special
exception for that kind of use.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay? Hold up one
second. And if he doesn't live up to that
special exception we pull the permit. We have
another public hearing and the permit is
pulled. It is not an automatic situation.
Excuse me.
MEMBER SIMON: I think you're actually
raising what is a very, very important point,
which we haven't really talked about, is the
special exception because your objection and I
suspect some of the other objections are for
that particular kind of use and that speaks
directly to the special exception. It may be,
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if the same building were going to be used to
manufacture microelectronics, maybe you would
not have that objection, but we would have a -
- we did a special exception for a
contractor's yard and that's the thing we
probably should be talking about.
MR. GENOVESE: Yeah, with me, I mean, you
know, it would be nice for John to develop
that piece of property, but it's what you're
going to develop it into.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, that's what the
special exception debate is all about. Is it
MR. GENOVESE: I'm not questioning John
developing the property. He could do --
MEMBER SIMON: No, development no. You
don't ask a special exception to develop it,
but if you develop it as a manufacturing
plant, a contractor's yard, a haircut bizarre,
whatever it is, that's what we're talking
about. Yes, your objection is to the
particular use that he has in mind and maybe
that is -- maybe that's something that people
can at least debate, all be on the same page
on what they're debating.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MR. GENOVESE:
residents there.
MEMBER SIMON:
You're surrounded by all
I know. This is an
argument for denying the special exception,
not because he's there or because he's a
businessman, but because of what kind of
business he wants to run and we can weigh the
pros and cons on this
probably good to have
input on this because
MR. GENOVESE:
been other people
letters.
MEMBER SIMON:
and I think it would be
a lot of people giving
this is the --
I'm sure there would have
here, we never got any
No, no. That's -- what
I'm saying is if it's a special exception it
would apply to almost anything. If McDonald's
had to have a special exception, for example,
the people from all over the Town could
express themselves one way or the other
because it does affect them. It is the Main
Road and at least that's the issue that's
really at stake and not the business of
multiple uses and lands and setbacks and so
forth. It really is, I think, for many
people. Maybe not everybody, but for many
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
people the kinds of things that you're
describing. If you're alone, then you're
probably not going to win, but if enough
people feel the way you do and if enough
people feel that that doesn't really matter --
MR. GENOVESE: Everybody that lives in my
neighborhood feels that way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we address the
issue of why you didn't get a letter? We sat
here and we told you that this hearing would
be reconvening at this date; therefore, you
were not -- you did not --
MR. GENOVESE: Yeah, but then somebody
said there was a street sign on the street.
There is no street sign on the street.
BOARD ASST.: Right, that has nothing to
do with (inaudible).
GENOVESE: My name is Jeanne
I'm Lou's husband (sic) 580 Skunk
MRS.
Genovese,
Lane --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I
just finish
what I was saying? We had a hearing, a prior
hearing, and we told you it was going to
reconvene on this date.
BOARD ASST.: You were present at that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
hearing.
MRS. GENOVESE: I was here, yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is the
reason why you didn't get a letter. If we
adjourn the hearing without a date then they
are -- it necessitates them to send you a
letter prior to the hearing.
MR. GENOVESE: How about the neighbors
that weren't here?
BOARD ASST.: They got the first notice.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They got the first
notice, they are supposed to follow the
procedure.
MRS. GENOVESE: Let me just say, I wrote
it on the calendar. I was here December 20th,
whatever day it was.
BOARD ASST.: Right, you were here.
MRS. GENOVESE: Okay and, you know, I
wrote it on my calendar for March 19th, you
know, we never heard anything so I called you
guys yesterday and said is it still on or
what? Cause I don't know what time and --
BOARD ASST.: That's the right thing to
do.
MRS. GENOVESE: Well, I did call and they
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
said 12:15 and I said okay, fine. So I got on
the phone I called Reno, he's not here. He's
a CPA. He's in the city. He's all tied up
this time of year. Had he known it was 12:15
today, he would be here.
BOARD ASST.: What happened? You called
and --
MRS. GENOVESE: I called him after I
spoke with you guys.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, well it's a public
office. It's in the newspapers.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He can still submit
a letter if he wants to.
BOARD ASST.: It's timely posted.
MRS. GENOVESE: The point is that -- oh,
he's going to.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You don't have to be
here. This is going to be an ongoing process.
It's still before the Planning Board also and
anybody who has an interest in anything that
they want to say about this application can
submit it in writing to the Zoning Board
office, they don't have to be present. It
will become part of the official record.
Every Board member here will read it.
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MRS. GENOVESE: We did. I did submit a
letter, but we didn't hear --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Other neighbors like
your CPA --
MRS. GENOVESE: They are going to.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine.
BOARD ASST.: Pass the word around.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Pass the word
around, that's the best thing to do.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
around so we have --
BOARD ASST.: We
you have to do that
MRS. GENOVESE:
knocking yesterday.
MEMBER SIMON:
Right, pass the word
don't do that for you,
on your own.
Right. I went door
Okay, that's great.
That's good. That's being a responsible
citizen. Look we are bound by very strict
rules about announcement and publication of
meetings, but the rules that we're bound by do
not include the need to remind people of
things which were announced a month ago that
they really are still going to occur.
MRS. GENOVESE: That is not the issue.
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MEMBER SIMON: Exactly that is not the
issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is not the
issue.
MRS. GENOVESE: I just do want to say
before when we were thinking about buying that
piece of property we did come down here and it
was Scott Russell who was the Tax Assessor
then and Bob Scott. We asked them, you know,
tax map numbers we needed and so on and so
forth and we said what is LB? What is that
and what he told us was that would be like
putting the Down Home store there and so my
husband and I said, alright, you know, it's a
north-forky country kind of thing, great.
That, you know, that's what we were told and
that's what we kind of went by.
MR. GENOVESE: Well, what I said to them
was a trucking business isn't going to go in
there, and he says it's not zoned for that.
MEMBER SIMON: Well that's why he goes
for a special exception, that's what this
hearing is about. Here is the right place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me explain this
to you. I have nothing against either one of
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
those people in their present positions and
Scott being the Supervisor --
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You needed to go to
the Building Department and ask that question,
okay, because they are the people that would
determine --
MR. GENOVESE: I did go to the -- at that
time I spoke to Verity.
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
MR. GENOVESE: Believe me, I went through
the tracks, okay, I know the game. Alright.
Before I was going to spend three-quarters of
a million dollars building a house I wanted to
make sure what was going to be my surroundings
and it was told to me.
BOARD ASST.: It's best to ask for a copy
of the Code so you have it in writing.
MRS. GENOVESE: Well, he --
MR. GENOVESE: Well, 10 years later,
sure.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but anyway you're in
the right place at the right time and this
an open discussion.
MRS. GENOVESE: Okay. Well, we are
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
against the project.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. GENOVESE: This type of project, in
our minds, belongs in an industrial area such
as Route 48 where there's a lot of other
industrial kind of things, okay, and what he's
trying to put on this small amount of property
that's 220 or whatever percent or whatever it
is, is just outrageous. It's just ridiculous.
We did not come to the north fork to be
looking at, you know, you could put a 6-foot
fence and arborvitaes and whatever, but it's
going to have to be lit, you know, you're
going to have lights, sound, noise, this that
and the other thing and it's just not the
right project for this location and it is an
intense, however you said, on the residents.
It's all residential (sic) that live around
there and the 20-foot setback, that applies to
our property. 20 feet is from here to there.
We don't want to be looking, you know --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, all I can say is it
was good that this was listed as not a use of
right, but something for a special exception,
which is why we're here. It's an open
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
question.
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Whoever decided to put
that -- put this in as a special exception, at
least was wise enough not to make it a use as
of right.
MRS. GENOVESE: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: Otherwise we wouldn't be
having any hearings at all on that question.
MRS. GENOVESE: Well, the other lady
said, I'm sorry I don't know your name, but
you said it yourself this --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Member Weisman.
MRS. GENOVESE: Okay, this particular
project does not belong on this particular
piece of property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They have a right by
special exception and we may determine to
grant that or not --
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to apply for a
contractor's yard according to the zone.
MEMBER SIMON: They have a right to apply
for a special exception.
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
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242
property.
MRS. GENOVESE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
different questions.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Right.
Alright, those are two
Thank you.
MRS. GENOVESE: Well, we just would like
to say we invite anyone on this Board or the
Town Board to come to our house, come to our
property and see what we see from our vantage
point. We invite you to come any time you'd
like.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is your
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MEMBER WEISMAN: They have a right to
apply for it, okay, and what the Building
Inspector has said is that the amount of
activity they want with three buildings on a
small lot is too much.
MRS. GENOVESE: That's what we object to
as well. That's why we're here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's it in a
nutshell. Okay, so one is the use itself.
MRS. GENOVESE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: A contractor's yard, the
other is how many contractors on that
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address, ma'am?
MRS. GENOVESE: 580 Skunk Lane and we
bear the brunt of this project, okay, because
we are behind the property and --
BOARD ASST.:
house?
MS. MILLIGAN: Yes.
MRS. GENOVESE: Yes.
Breakfast, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
spot.
MS. MILLIGAN:
MRS. GENOVESE:
Do you have a B & B at your
Vintage Bed and
That's
It was.
Well, it was.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
your name for the
MS. MILLIGAN:
Lane.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
would you like to say?
You have
record, ma'am.
Elaine Milligan,
a beautiful
It is.
to state
530 Skunk
530, okay. What
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MS. MILLIGAN: I object to the new
building. The old buildings were there. I
guess they're rather grandfathered in, but not
such a small piece of property to have a
bigger building on it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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MS. MILLIGAN: And then we don't want to
look at all of that all the time. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else? Mr.
Bauer?
MR. BAUER: Yeah. I just have a couple
of questions. Bill Bauer, Cutchogue, 350
Skunk Lane.
On that new plan we just got there, by
the looks of it, it looks like from what I can
see from the architecture, it looks like he's
putting a full second story onto the thing.
MR. ROMANELLI: I'll clarify that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to use
the mike?
MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah. On the front
building, the back of the building the way
it's designed it's going to have a 12-foot
door tall enough to get a truck inside the
back. The front of it is going to be, you
know, for simplification, take a look at
Southold Flooring. How the front of the
building is a one-story looking building, but
behind it, if you look behind it, they got a
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large building where they can fit trucks
inside. So it is technically two-story, I
guess you would call it, in the rear where you
can get a truck, but the front office area is
one story.
MR. BAUER: Before what you had, John, on
the original plans the building was a little
wider and you had just the front and that was
it and then the building was going to be flat.
The way my property sits, my house is 32 feet
higher than grade (inaudible).
MR. ROMANELLI: Probably, right.
MR. BAUER: So now I'm going to be
looking at -- I can look right across the top
of that building (inaudible) up on a hill.
Now you're sticking this thing up here with a
two-story (inaudible) -- now my question is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Your questions have
to be toward the Board. You can't speak to
John.
MR. BAUER: Alright. If that space is
going to be up there, what's he going to use
it for? Is there going to be offices up
there, is he going to put dental office up
there, doctors offices up there? What's going
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up there?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there a vaulted
ceiling, John, in the back of the building?
MR. ROMANELLI: In the back of the
building there's a full 12-foot garage door,
12-foot, you know, shop. Again, I tried to
say, you know, Southold Flooring even if you
sort of look how Cox Lane Development is on
the corner of Cox and the North Road.
BOARD ASST.: Is there's a second floor
then what would you have --
MR. ROMANELLI: No, the second floor is
not a second floor. The back of the building
could have the height of a second floor, but
it's really for truck height. The front of
the building is office space. You know, if
you look at the drawing we have some peaked
roofs, you know, to give it a residential
look, not just one big flat roof. We have all
different peaks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what you're
saying is the front roof --
MR. ROMANELLI: It's a fagade really.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is a fagade
basically hiding that --
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MR. ROMANELLI: Hiding the back big
square structure that is going to have, you
know, the 12-foot garage doors in the back.
You know, again, I think the design -- I sort
of took the design from the look of the new
Southold Flooring. You know, I look at that
when you drive by it to me it doesn't look
like a two story building. Take a close look
there's a two-story building behind the retail
part of the building.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. ROMANELLI:
You mean the one up on 48?
The one up on 48, right.
Yes.
Right, a fairly new
building. Again, a retail section of it is
one story. It's got a lot of peaks and
valleys in the roof to make it look taller
behind that retail section and you basically
don't --
MR. BAUER:
(Inaudible).
[Not at microphone.]
MR. ROMANELLI: No, that's not the plan.
It's just how it's drawn with three individual
25-foot long --
MR. BAUER: (Inaudible) to look that way
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: John,
of the building being that high
the purpose
is to put the
contractor's trucks in at night?
MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah, to get material and
trucks inside at night time. Storage at night
time. The same reason I have it faced that
way so those garages and that building would
be hidden from the road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. ROMANELLI: They would come around
the back and go in and it wouldn't be seen.
You know, the same with the Cox Lane
Development, you don't even know what's behind
those buildings when you drive by them until
you go to the dump and see what's actually
behind the buildings. That's what I was
looking for and really with the same building
in the rear that we moved 75 feet off the
property line off of Genovese was the same
principle that once we turned it we realized,
okay, they're now protected. Yeah, they're
going to look at a building, I'm sorry, about
that, but it's going to be if a house was
there they would look at a house. They will
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look at the back of a building, but the garage
doors and the activity is now on the front of
it. So as far as the neighbors, Genovese,
they will not see contractor activity. It's
now turned 100 percent so everything is in
front of the doors. Ail they're going to see
is the back of a building and that we can't do
much about. I think the Code allows me to do
that.
BOARD ASST.: I wonder if they were able
to look at the revised plans.
MR. ROMANELLI: They came up and looked
at it. I don't know if they had a chance to,
you know, study them or really understand
them, but again those were the thought
processes in some of the changes that we made
to minimize some of the, you know, complaints.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to make a
short statement which at least summarizes
where I think we are and maybe the rest of us.
For me having listened to John and Cathy and
so on, is the real issue is the kind of use
that they're going to be, not how many, but
the kind and there are three possible answers
that the Board can give. One, no problem; one
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
is, no way, and the third is, yes,
with certain kinds of constraints
limitations on this. I think Mr.
but only
and
Romanelli,
Ms. Mesiano have done a very good job of
trying to respond to questions about how could
this be made more tolerable, but the big thing
that's lurking there is the one, yes or no, or
yes with, and I think that's the big question.
The people who are coming here really have in
mind not so much how it's done. Many of them
don't like the idea at all. A compromise can
possibly be reached where the answer will be
yes, provided that a, b, and c and I believe
the applicant and his representative are doing
a pretty good job of trying to sweeten the
pill, if you will, but that doesn't answer the
question whether the pill
but at least it's working
direction.
MR. ROMANELLI: That was
Thanks for realizing that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is
still be swallowed,
in the right
our attempt.
there anybody in
the back that would like to speak? Anybody
else?
MR. ROMANELLI: I would just like one
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more comment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. ROMANELLI: Just to throw in some
history on the property. That has technically
been a contractor's yard since like 1929. Mr.
Midgley was a carpenter. He ran his carpentry
shop out of those buildings, you know, for
years until I bought it from him really and
made it into a workshop.
MEMBER SIMON: Would it be useful to
submit a short history of the use of the lot
just for our information?
MRS. MESIANO: I was
because when the question
going to offer that
came up about the
zoning I did pull all of the zoning records
and the last time anything happened with
respect to this property was 1958.
MEMBER SIMON: So a one-page statement
about the prior history.
BOARD ASST.: 1951 or 19587
MEMBER OLIVA: 58.
BOARD ASST.: Alright.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes and it's been a
business zone. It's always been a business
use, but once zoning came into effect it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
been zoned for business use.
MEMBER SIMON: But what kind of business,
that's part of the history.
MRS. MESIANO: Limited business.
MEMBER SIMON: What kind of limited
business? That's the point.
MRS. MESIANO:
the time.
MEMBER SIMON:
Whatever the Code said at
No, what has been on the
ground. If you're going to build a precedent,
you have to --
MRS. MESIANO: I have the Code and I have
the history, so rather than shoot from the
hip, I'd rather take the time to give you --
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I'm saying I
would invite you to do that.
MRS. MESIANO: Then I will do that.
MEMBER SIMON: With specifics not just
say business because whether the business is a
boutique or whether it is heavy duty
construction matters.
MRS. MESIANO: Right because and also I
think Mr. Romanelli's point should be at least
heard that this particular use, although it
hasn't evolved into what we now recognize as a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
contractor's yard, has typically been what the
property's been used for. Mr. Midgely, Mr.
Midgely's father, I think Mr. Midgely can
bring us back to the mid-1800s as to how that
property has been used. You know, I have COs
on the buildings that are there and I think
Mr. Midgely would like to speak. I'll get out
of his way.
MR. MIDGELY: I can give you some
history. I'm Bill Midgely, 200 Skunk Lane. I
sold the property to John. Mr. Genovese and
Mr. Reno both spoke, after I sold the
property, that they wanted to buy it. Well,
they had a few years cause I -- as the Town
prices went up I kept going up in the price.
I started at $200,000.00, I ended up getting
$335,000.00 so I'm glad they didn't buy it
earlier, but in 1920 my father came out of
WWI. He was a carpenter, so he had a
carpenter shop there and worked out of it.
There were two businesses there, at that time,
cause my grandfather had a flower business he
sold Dahlia bulbs, Gladiola bulbs, Tulip bulbs
and seeds. That's what that old cellar is.
Prior to that, there were three
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
businesses there. From around 1840 or '50
there was a blacksmith's shop there, William
Shatfield Buckingham, one of my ancestors and
Gilbert (Inaudible) Howell, my great-
grandfather. William Shatfield had the
blacksmith shop, right next to it was my
grandfather's general store. That's the old
building sitting on that old cellar out back
there. I've got the posters from it,
gunpowder, soap, stuff of that nature.
So it's been used as multiple purpose
back then. I was -- I've been a contractor
since 1948 and I used it right up until I sold
it to John. So I don't know what they're
talking about it looking a mess. I had a mess
out there quite a few times, yes, cause I had
enough storage, fortunately, which a lot of
contractors do not have. They have no place
to keep their equipment in this town and I did
have a mess there at times cause, hey, I'm
remodeling and it looked like it was usable, I
took it back to the shop and I used it for
something. So I did have a lot of stuff
there. I cleaned it all up before I sold it
to John, so I don't know what they're talking
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
about a messy contractor's yard, that would
have been a messy contractor's yard. The
buildings there now are getting rather defunct
and rather than reinvest and rebuild them all
up, I decided I'm getting too darned old, I'm
going to sell them. So I did and I don't see
any problem with what John's got there.
The contractor's in this town they tried
to eliminate them working out of their home a
few years ago, as you recall. Somehow or
another my picture showed up in Newsday on
that one and it wasn't very good because it
showed the asbestos hovering on my steam pipes
in the cellar. The story showed my raggedy
electrical system in the house cause that's
where my office was in the cellar, but they
kind of backed off on that, but some of this
is reminiscent of that. When you say
(inaudible) contractors. You know, they can't
all afford a 80,000 square feet just for
storing their stuff or to work out of. If
they have a truck, just basically the younger
ones just trying to start out, they don't have
a heck of a lot to work with. They need
someplace to store stuff, electricians,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
masons, all your ones that provide services to
your homes and other businesses. They need a
place so I think this is a great idea John's
got and I don't see any problem at all with
those three buildings. There were seven
buildings just up until just recently there.
These are going to look a lot better.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. MIDGELY: Thank you.
MEMBER SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Alright, so the point in question is what
do we do now? Do we adjourn it without a date
until the situation occurs that we have SEQRA
and we can come back and have a final hearing
or do we --
MEMBER SIMON: I think so, yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: I think so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- or do we
estimate a date sometime in the future for
that final hearing?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think we should
adjourn without a date cause that way Cathy
can let us know when --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This way everybody
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can be notified --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible) the
Planning Board and then we can schedule it
because --
MRS. MESIANO: I'd like to have a date
because that way we have something to shoot
for because if we don't have a date things
tend to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Drift.
MRS. MESIANO: -- (inaudible) away and I
don't (inaudible), but at least if there's a
date I have some justification to say what I
need and, you know, I'm not suggesting, you
know, next week, but something reasonable. I
know that the engineer Nelson, Pope has
already been to the property so they have
started to work on it and I would leave it to
your discretion as to what would be a
reasonable timeframe --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
sorry.
MRS. MESIANO:
we flounder.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Well, we have to --
-- without a date I think
Alright, that makes
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
sense. We have the Planning -- they're
sitting in for, you know, whatever reason, but
can you maybe give us, Heather, we're, you
know, tomorrow could you or somebody, give us
any idea of how long that SEQRA process might
take so that we're not totally off?
BOARD ASST.: I would guess three months.
I would guess three months, but I don't know
Planning --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have to talk to
Chick
Voorhees really nicely.
BOARD ASST.: Maybe six weeks today, you
know, maybe six weeks.
MR. ROMANELLI: Six weeks (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, they have a better
sense at the Planning Board, so you know --
MS. LANZA: Hi there, Heather Lanza,
Planning Director. I think -- I talked to
Nelson, Pope and he thought he'd have his
initial review done this week. That doesn't
mean that the Planning Board can turn around
and make a determination. It might say it
needs more information, it might say -- I
don't know what it's going to say.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. LANZA: Say, best case scenario, it
doesn't need anymore information and they have
a recoramendation, it's going to take us
probably -- we need to do a determination and
a public hearing. I don't think it's going to
make the April public hearing just because of
timing. So that would be the May public
hearing, which would be the second week of May
and I think if you build in a little bit of
time like that, at least we have time in case
we need a little more information, and they
have time to get it back to us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you think June?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's put it on for
June.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Put it on for June.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, the June date.
MS. LANZA: Our meeting is the second
week of May, so I don't know how that
coincides.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we would go the
following month.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So June --
MS. LANZA: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the June meeting?
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
May meeting?
BOARD ASST.:
28.
What's the date of
June 23rd, I believe it is.
What is the date of the
Uh, the May meeting is May
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, could we do
possibly if the (inaudible) meeting
in May?
BOARD ASST.: It doesn't give --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're booked.
BOARD ASST.: -- enough time for the
it then,
is early
public to review it and --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, oh right. Right.
BOARD ASST.: -- for us to receive it and
circulate it to everybody.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: So I would say June should
be good.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: Would you give me that
date, June what?
BOARD ASST.: June 23.
MEMBER OLIVA: 23.
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BOARD ASST.:
it's not the 23rd it would be the 25th,
It should be a Thursday, if
but --
2 p.m.?
1:45.
MR. ROMANELLI: [Not at microphone.]
(Inaudible) SEQRA determination the Planning
Board's (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, that should be it.
The SEQRA determination to go over it with the
applicant. Right. What
do on the 23rd?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is it we're going to
We're going to
basically review any further information that
we may have received from the Planning Board
and we are going to receive (sic) any further
information that we have from the public and
then we have to start deliberating.
MR. ROMANELLI: Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: I'll get you some kind of
a history write up as soon as I can get it
together.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, that should be very
helpful.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: 1:45.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
MRS. MESIANO:
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ladies and
gentleman, that concludes the --
BOARD ASST.: We'll need a resolution.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, yeah. I'm
sorry. I'll make a motion adjourning to June
23rd at 1:45.
BOARD ASST.: June calendar at 1:45 p.m.
Who would like to second that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Me.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 19, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
April 12, 2009
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