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RECEIVED
MAR 1 0 2009
BOARD OF APPEALS
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
May 29, 2008
9:40 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD ?. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town
Attorney
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29,
INDEX OF HEARINGS
2
2008
Hearing: Page:
Jerry Kalas #6166 3-5
John Scourakis #6157 6-22
Eve Seber and Carlo Voelker #6156 23-54
James Young #6163 55-73
Robert Swing #6159 74-86
Joseph and Carolyn Ferrara #6160 87-93
Daniel and Pasquelina Berkowitz #6165 94-104
Michael Judge #6158 105-115
Mattituck Park District #6164 116-146
Paul and Cheryl Ragusa #6138 147-207
Patricia and Thomas Nadherny #6151 208-214
Terrance McLaughlin #6162 215-227, 272-274
Henry Traendly #6154 228-251
Carl Juul-Nielsen #6168 252-257
Jaime and Nancy Santiago #6161 258-271
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER:
BOARD MEMBER:
Call meeting
So moved.
Second.
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HEARING 96166 - Jerry Kalas
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under
Sections 280-122 and 280-124, based on
the Building Inspector's April 10, 2008
Notice of Disapproval, concerning an as-
built addition with alterations to the
existing single-family dwelling, which is
less than 35 feet from the front yard lot
line, at 995 Glen Court, Cutchogue; CTM
1000-83-1-10."
Is anyone here to represent the
applicant?
MR. KALAS: John Kalas for the
applicant.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hi, John. Good
morning.
MR. KALAS: Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: As I understand you
have a previous variance which was
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
granted a 15-foot front yard setback
because of bluff erosion and the current
as-built addition has a 20-foot front
yard setback where the Code requires 35
feet, except for your variance, and you
are replacing -- you have replaced entry
steps on either side of the garage, which
are now in place, permitting front yard
access to your garage. It's all
constructed, except for the balcony, I
presume, that you're going to need there.
My question is, is all of the
construction that you've undertaken and
are proposing complete within the
existing front yard setback?
MR. KALAS: Yes, it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I leave it
up to you now.
MR. KALAS: Okay, I just want to
clarify the construction has not been
completed and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. KALAS: -- they want a permit
be issued for us to complete the
construction. The construction would
to
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involve opening a garage and allowing a
front yard garage access to the house and
replacing the steps, which were
previously wood steps, and we would put
brick steps in there. That's also not
yet been completed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. I have no
further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Nothing.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no
problems with the application. We thank
you, sir.
MR. KALAS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you sit
down, let's see if anybody in the
audience would like to speak for or
against this application.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MR. KALAS: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6157 - John Scourakis
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variances under
Sections 280-124 and 280-116, based on
the Building Inspector's March 17, 2008
Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed new single-family dwelling (with
a new foundation after demolition of the
existing building), for the reasons that:
(1) the setback from the top of the
bluff adjacent to the Long Island
Sound will be less than 100 feet;
(2) the minimum code standards under
Sections 280-9 and 280-10 require a
minimum of 15 feet on a single side
and minimum 35 feet combined side
yard setbacks; and
(3) the lot coverage will exceed the
code limitation of 20% with a
buildable lot size of the 13,369
square feet.
Location of the Property: 955 Soundview
Avenue Extension, Southold; CTM 1000-50-
2-10 and 11, combined together as a
single building lot."
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Scouraki$,
were you going to represent yourself,
sir?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, would
you just come up to the mike and state
your name, please?
MR. SCOURAKIS: John Scourakis.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you
like to tell us?
MR. SCOURAKIS: First --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: First, this is
Michael's hearing,
when they want.
BOARD ASST.:
application.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
main issue was the
so anybody jump in
Tell us about your
Sure. It's a -- the
existing building is a
half on a crawl space, half on stilts.
So part of the project would be to lift
up the home to allow for a formal
foundation to be put in. There are some
concerns about structural --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Integrity.
MR. SCOURAKIS: -- integrities.
Then, we would like to attach the garage
with the home to accommodate our
increasing family size and we kind of did
that in the most conservative way
possible that we saw and that's about it.
Unfortunately, the setbacks are pretty
much preexisting. We're not going
outside really the perimeter of the
existing structures, it's just they're
already nonconforming.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I need
you to address the most recent
information that you just received and
then I need to ask you another question.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you
like to tell us about your reading of the
LWRP information that we've just given
you?
MR. SCOURAKIS: As far as?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I
actually haven't read the entire document
to date, as of this particular moment,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
and I realize that dropping this on you
at a 11tn hour and 59 minutes, I think
you need to address it at sometime.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I think we
can give you some time to basically look
at it because we haven't received Soil
and Water Conservation's opinion
regarding the bluff to date. So we
really need to adjourn this hearing until
the next regularly scheduled meeting.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At which
point, I would ask you, please, to deal
with that letter from Mark Terry who is
the Principle Planner and LWRP
coordinator. I also need you to tell us
who has a right-of-way over that right-
of-way.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How many
houses have a right-of-way over it?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Actually, that's
what we're doing now in the process that
we're merging the two lots. So far what
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
we've researched in (inaudible) is that
we own the right-of-way, actually the lot
that the house is on used to give right-
of-way down to the beach.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. SCOURAKIS: So Lot 11 had the
right-of-way to 10 and that was the only
one that we're aware of and the attorney
is working on that right now to merge the
lots and do it through Town Assessor's to
formally merge it and extinguish the
right-of-way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, was
there any attempt to research the right-
of-way to see if anybody else had a
right-of-way over the right-of-way?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Well, back then the
problem is they gave right-of-way to
three people. They didn't actually give
it to a physical piece of property, so
it's kind of confusing as to what does
that mean.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Those three people
owned Lot 11, so we just assumed that
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basically that was the theory behind it
throughout the years that that's what was
the purpose was of the right-of-way.
Now, there is another right-of-way on Lot
9 that other people in the community have
a right-of-way to. So that was the
confusion there between that right-of-
way. It's actually directly adjacent to
this right-of-way that's a 6-foot path
that all the (inaudible) list and
everybody in the community has a right-
of-way to that portion, but it's actually
to Lot 9, not 10.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Umm. The lot
that you own that you're exhuming into
your own property, do those three people
live in Southold Town, occupy any houses
within the immediate area?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Well, these libors
are back from 1932, that was the last one
who was Mrs. Solomon who owned Lot 11.
So the way the trace looks as was the
first owner of Lot 11 had a right-of-way
to 10 and then passing it along to two
other people. There was a total of three
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names.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
exist, those people
were --
MR. SCOURAKIS:
Do those still
that were -- that
They're all deceased
and the only properties that they owned
were Lot 11 that we can find.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, might I
suggest that if you ask your attorney to
put that information in a letter before
us, for our files, that would be very
helpful.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because the way the
site -- the survey is drawn you're
actually -- your garage is in the right-
of-way, so that needs to be clarified so
that we can really establish what's the
front yard, back yard, side yard, and so
on.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Sure.
For the record, I'd
also like to incorporate a couple of
other details in this application upon
site inspection, which is as follows, I
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believe you just said you're going to
attach the garage. I think you're going
to demolish that garage and rebuild on
the
same footprint.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yes.
Except you're going
to bring the front of that existing
garage in line with your home, your
existing home thereby increasing the
nonconforming front yard setback of that
portion by 4 feet, I think it was, is
that right?
MR. SCOURAKIS: I believe so, three
and change, roughly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, the --
because of your incredibly oddly shaped
lot and the strange sort of shape of the
boundary, you have a single side yard
setback of 6.3 feet.
yard setback of 14.5
requires 35, and the
A combined side
feet, while the Code
front yard setback
is 17.4 feet. Now, the lot coverage that
you're proposing is 20.6 percent, the
Code requires 20 percent; that's a pretty
negligible increase. So I just simply
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want to clarify is that you're
understanding of the various variances
that you will need to build what you're
proposing?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. You've
already described that this is not a
total demo. This is a demo of a garage
and a lifting of the existing structure
off the ground in order to excavate and
put in a full structurally sound
foundation for a basement, correct?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. You also, by
the way, note a 90-foot setback from the
bluff. Now LWRP has just told us 62
feet.
BOARD ASST.:
bluff.
That's the neighbor's
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the
neighbor's bluff, alright, not their
portion of the bluff.
BOARD ASST.: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so we're
going to assume then your proposed
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
setback is in
already have, which
bluff?
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
keeping with what you
is 90 feet from the
Yes.
Okay. I don't
really have any questions at this point.
I think it's a matter of clarifying the
legal circumstances of the right-of-way.
MR. SCOURAKIS: We figured if we
merge it with the Town Assessor's that
would be adequate enough.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Would that be fine?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well certainly it
would change the lot coverage. For one
thing, you would no longer need a
variance for lot coverage.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Well, actually he
formulated it based on both lot sizes so
it
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Oh, alright.
-- still --
Then you would
still need a variance.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the
extinguishment of the right of way.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My only
concern, and I'll pass it on to my fellow
colleagues, is the issue of 8.2 on the
westerly side. I really don't think
that's enough to get to your rear yard.
I would like you to reconsider or
reconfigure the garage to give us a
little more footage on that side to be
able to get some needed, possibly some
needed machinery in there if you needed
to do some work on the rear property, on
the rear yard of your property, and this
has been something that I have been
requesting for years on waterfront
property. $o I'm just throwing that out
to you, this hearing is no different than
the new hearing that we're going for --
the additional hearing that we're going
to have sometime in the very near future.
Okay?
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: Also, we haven't
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received a report from Soil and Water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's
correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because your back
yard kind of slopes and they've been very
helpful in giving us direction to give to
you, as the applicant and owning property
on the bluff, some helpful suggestions in
how to keep your bluff. So
see that.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I'd like to
Okay.
I just think that
the LWRP is mentioning something that you
have no control over anyway and certainly
the shape of the bank is -- it looked
fairly stable to me. The (inaudible)
wasn't caused by anything other than --
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- God. I mean it
was invented that way so I don't think
you have much control over that. I do
think, though, that you have control over
the setbacks, you know, especially when
you're taking down a structure that is in
a nonconforming area. You know, I'd like
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
to see you maybe try to come to more
conformity on that. It'll help with the
setback that Gerry is suggesting and
also, you know, your lot is the size that
it is.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Sure.
Merged or unmerged,
it doesn't change, but you do have an
opportunity here to become more
conforming than less, I guess, less
nonconforming than you could possibly be.
I don't think you could put a conforming
house on this lot.
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-um.
MEMBER DINIZIO: With the
restraints, you know, 104 foot from the
bluff and all of that, but I think you
have an opportunity now to make that more
compact and, you know, I'd like to see
you do that if you could. When I read
this and when I'm seeing that total side
yards and even one side yard is still out
of conformity, you know, I think that you
can do better.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
Sure. Only one side
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yard though is changing about
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
3 feet.
I understand.
The other one is --
I understand, but,
you know, there's an opportunity now --
MR. SCOURAKIS: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- to do that. You
have to, I know you have to replace that
foundation, you know, which is a good
thing and that helps stabilize the house,
but the garage, you know, is really just
a shell and you know a shell co61d be put
anywhere and made to look nice now
because if you have the house you can
make it somehow be attractive. If you
can, if you can't, you know, then we have
to deal with it.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay, I'll talk to
the architect and see what we can do.
MEMBER OLIVA:
pictures.
MR. SCOURAKIS:
Thank you for the
Oh, you're welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, before I
ask for audience participation other than
the applicant, do we have the ability to
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deal with this application in June or
shall we or are we going to have to move
it into July?
BOARD ASST.: It depends on how long
it would take him to do the plans. The
alternative plan, would you be able to do
that in two or three weeks?
MR. SCOURAKIS: If we can do -- I'll
talk to the architect to see what we can
do.
BOARD ASST.: How much time do you
need?
MR. SCOURAKIS: It would be the end
of June, correct?
BOARD ASST.: We need to know first
how much time you need and then we would
put it on the calendar. I don't see why
it would take more than a few weeks, two
or three weeks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need it a
week before. It's June 24tn, isn't it?
BOARD ASST.: June 26th, so we would
need it the 19tn of June the latest or it
would be --
MR. SCOURAKIS:
I don't see why
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that's a problem. The architect is
pretty receptive.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just be aware
that this is an add-on for June so it's
going to be late in
MR. SCOURAKIS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the day.
Sure.
Would you be able
to get the letter from the attorney as
well?
MR. SCOURAKIS: That should
hopefully, as long as everything runs
smoothly, it should be done in a couple
of weeks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Just waiting for the
Title Company to do that portion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I think
we're cutting it close. I think we
should put it on for July.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: It would be the 24tn.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The 24tn of
July.
BOARD ASST.: The 24tn of July.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's where I
got the 24tn from.
BOARD ASST.: At 2:30.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2:30 on the
24th of July.
MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not
finished yet so let's see.
Is there anybody else who would like
to speak at this hearing concerning this
application at this time? This will be
adjourned to July 24th at 2:30.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6156 - Eve Seber and
Carlo Voelker
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Section
280-114, based on the Building
Inspector's amended March 28, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval, for the reason that the
proposed second-story addition and
alternations to the existing single-
family dwelling will not meet the code-
required minimum 15 feet on a single side
yard and will exceed the code limitation
of 20 percent for lot coverage. Location
of Property: 3025 Pine Neck Road
adjacent to Jockey Creek, Southold; CTM
1000-70-6-18."
Anybody have anything to say about
this?
MR. GORMAN: Hi, Bill Gorman for the
applicant.
Just briefly, we're planning to do
extensive remodeling on the house. If
you've been out there you've seen it's an
odd house that we'd like to change the
configuration of. It's a wedge, kind of
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a flying wedge shaped house and it has
several -- it was placed on the lot in an
odd way and our intention is to square-
off the foundation rather than keep this
wedge shape. Square-off the foundation
will be reducing the foundation from the
line of the wetlands back, actually, by
squaring off the foundation, and one of
our issues is by building a new deck to
access the backyard.
Right now the backyard is cut up in
such a way it's got a steep grade. It's
chopped up with retaining walls to
provide access to the water and there's
really no place for any type of
congregation in the backyard. So we're
proposing to build a deck that would at
least allow the homeowner to enjoy the
view of the backyard and Jockey Creek.
In doing so, we will hit -- we're already
8-1/2 feet from the side yard and by
squaring off the deck to the house we
will further reduce that setback to 6-1/2
feet, 6.6 feet.
So we're seeking a variance to
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accommodate that 6.6 feet off the side
line and then the whole project in its
entirety will be .8 percent more than 20
percent of the lot coverage. That's it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, well this is
my application so I'll keep you going on
this. I was out there and I see the
yellow ribbons,
to do.
MR. GORMAN:
I see what you're trying
Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're going to
increase the size of that house
considerably.
MR. GORMAN: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Putting a second
story on it and the whole nine yards and
my assumption is you're going to tear
down the house that's there to do it.
MR. GORMAN: Well, we're going to
use -- we're going to keep the perimeter
walls up, some of them, but for all
intents and purposes
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it's pretty much a -
Are you going to
use the same foundation?
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MR. GORMAN: Parts of it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What would the
percentage of that be?
MR. GORMAN: I have a diagram of
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: Would you like to see
it?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'd like to
see it. I thought I saw something in
your file.
MR. GORMAN: Yes, there should be
something in there. Here's the -- I only
have one copy, I'm sorry.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, just to --
yeah, I have that. We all have that.
MR. GORMAN: Okay, so this is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me, one
second. This is DWG2?
MEMBER DINIZIO: 1.
MR. GORMAN: Number 1.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank
you. Go ahead, Mr. Gorman.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It wasn't clear to
me as to, cause I'm quite familiar with
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that property as my brother-in-law owned
the house in front of it, at one time.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know that this is
a cottage-community as opposed to, you
know, I know that they're becoming more
permanent, but all these houses were
built more or less summer homes. I'm
sure the people lived in them year-round.
What I'm seeing here is, you know, a
little bit more than that and I'm just
wondering if there's some way you can
stay within the Code to accomplish what
you need to accomplish. I'd like to hear
if you can kind of address that a little
bit. I've read your reasons for the
appeal for a variance and I have to write
this decision.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I write my decision
more or less based on what you say.
Okay, so if you give your reasons for the
variance and you're writing down that
it's going to be more suitable for the
character of the neighborhood, I'm kind
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of wondering what do you mean by that.
MR. GORMAN: What do I mean by more
suitable for the character of the
neighborhood?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. You know
right now it's mostly cottages and you're
putting in a two-story house.
MR. GORMAN: Across the creek
there's two-story houses.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. GORMAN: So looking on the other
side and there are houses that are just
getting bigger as you go down Jockey
Creek and granted that one house to the
west is, and to the east, they may not be
two-story, but they're spread out and
probably will at some point be remodeled
and get larger and I would say primarily
the houses across the creek are getting
larger and they're two-story houses as
you stand there and look out those are
two-story houses in the whole (inaudible)
MEMBER DINIZIO: They're not the
subject of a variance right now. This
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house is and --
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- so I need
something a little more substantial.
MR. GORMAN: Are you objecting
to
the two-story, to the second story or to
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I really have
no objection at all to the project, but I
just need better reasons than it's more
suitable for the neighborhood when I go
down there and see what the neighborhood
consists of, which is your immediate
neighbors, not across the creek. That
might be zoned differently. The lots
might be bigger, they're not the subject
of any variances.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And that's what we
have to consider, granting variances
based on that criteria and so when I'm
reading it's going to be infinitely more
suitable, I'm -- I just need from you and
explanation as to what that means.
MR. GORMAN: Infinitely more
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suitable for the neighborhood?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: Well, we -- frankly,
the existing house is not suitable to the
neighborhood. The house as it stands is
just an odd looking structure. It's
outdated from the 70s. There's no one
wall is the same height. It's a flying
wedge. It's got glass all along the
front and it's got notches in this wedge.
I have pictures of it. It's just an odd
looking house and I don't think any house
out there has any characteristics
resembling this one. It stands alone.
What we're intending to do is build
a house that is a little more in keeping
with the traditional house on the north
fork. Now, granted it's larger than the
cottages that are -- take up some of the
lots on that road. It's going to be a
little bit larger than those houses, but
it's a far cry more appropriate than what
exists there now.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and I guess
there's just one other thing. The
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existing setback of the deck is 8.5 feet
from the east side yard.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're requesting an
additional 1.5. This is a substantial
variance when you consider how we look at
setbacks today. You're already nearly 50
percent over the requirement and you want
to increase that.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It is substantial.
Is there anything that you can do to not
MR. GORMAN: Absolutely, I mean we -
- I came prepared totally to change that
angle where it shows the 8.5 feet to
straighten that off or to angle that off
where it would remain 8.5 feet away from
that
meet
to get
little
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, so you would
that --
MR. GORMAN: But everyone is trying
away from the angles, they're a
hypersensitive about angles with
this house right now. So everyone was
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looking for square, if we have to put an
angle on that deck to accommodate the
setback, we're certainly willing to do
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, but again I
mean our laws today aren't what they used
to be.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and, you know,
you're not only decreasing the degree of
nonconformity which -- increasing the
degree of nonconformity by going closer
to the property line, but you're also
increasing that degree by going -- by
stretching it out.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, to a lot more
than 50 percent. You are just a wedge on
that now, you have a point on there.
You're going to make a flat wall on that.
That is substantial by today's standards,
by the laws we have on the books today
and, you know, if you're saying to me
that you're not going to go any closer
than the 8.5, okay, then I don't believe
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you're increasing.
MR. GORMAN: You don't -- you don't
believe we're increasing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If you're not
requesting that,
you're okay.
MR. GORMAN:
you know, then maybe
Well, I would certainly
alter this application to change that
from the 6.6 feet to the 8.5 feet at the
end of the deck so that it never passes
the 8.5 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. You got
neighbors complaining that it's already
too close, you know, and we see something
today that they have a point.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Especially when you
look at it on the survey. I mean, it's a
busy lot, you know, there's a lot of
stuff going on here on this small lot
none of which I object to.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But I don't have to
live there and I just think the neighbors
do have a point.
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MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And I don't -- it
would be nice if you could give us the
8.5 in writing.
MR. GORMAN: Absolutely.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We can make it
other ways, too, it's not a --
MR. GORMAN: Not an issue.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And as far as the
lot coverage that might take care of the
lot coverage, too.
MR. GORMAN: I
MEMBER DINIZIO:
look at it that way.
think it might.
Alright, so take a
Jim?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you done,
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I think I am.
MEMBER OLIVA: I think to even help
it along even more you could cut down on
the side of the pool it's 24.6 from the
edge of the proposed whatever that is,
flagstone or whatever, you could cut that
down at least another 6 feet.
MR. GORMAN: From the?
MEMBER OLIVA: It's 8.1 to the side
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yard.
MR. GORMAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
From the patio?
Yeah. I don't see
why you can't cut that down at least 6
feet and make it 14 feet for a side yard,
which would be far more --
MEMBER DINIZIO: The only problem I
have with that, Ruth, that's at ground
level and it's not really -- I don't even
know that you're including that. I'm not
sure, but --
MEMBER OLIVA: I don't know.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not --
MR. GORMAN: Not (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not a two-
story building, you know what I mean?
It's a brick laid level with the grass.
MR. GORMAN: Absolutely.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Am I correct,
there's no retaining wall there holding
that up?
MR. GORMAN: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The problem I
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have is that we have no access again to
the rear yard because you're proposing a
deck on the opposite side, a deck that
will be significantly elevated above the
ground. So if you need to get to your
waterfront, not you in question, but your
client, there is no physical way to get
there.
Okay, we also have letters from the
neighbor -- a letter from the neighbor,
which you haven't addressed to date. By
the way, some of the letters from the
neighbors I'm going to ask from this
particular point on that you are an agent
for the applicant, that both the
applicant and yourself give us a
determination of what you feel that
letter, what significance that has to you
and how you're going to attempt to
somehow remedy that situation or their
particular concerns.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I'm going
to answer that question by saying you
need to come up with a landscape plan on
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that side.
MR. GORMAN: On the deck side?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. We're
going to say, standing in front of the
house on the road on the left hand side,
we're going to say on the Oak Lawn side,
okay?
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which is the
closest cross-street to this piece of
property.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That, if you
need to access the waterfront based upon
Ruth's recommendation of more footage and
a landscape plan, significant landscape
plan. I mean if you need to do it,
you're going to have to demolish it and
replant it again for the purposes of
accessing that waterfront.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cause you're
closing up both side yards and that's the
situation that I have a particular
problem with. I'm only one vote, but I'm
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throwing it out to you. Okay?
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: On your plan you're
saying the existing deck to be removed
because that deck really does circle all
the way around.
all that off?
MR. GORMAN:
Are you going to take
That angular deck.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: The angular deck, yeah,
it's --
MEMBER OLIVA: But you're still
going to --
MR. GORMAN: -- going to come off
because the reason it's coming off is
there's a substantial change to the
foundation, but essentially if we could
do the foundation change without moving
the deck then we would only be adding the
corner to the existing deck. You know
what I'm saying, can I show you?
MEMBER OLIVA: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER OLIVA: Appreciate it. That
really goes all over.
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MR. GORMAN: Okay, if we weren't
doing this change in the foundation we're
really essentially just adding this
piece.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm, which
is a triangular piece.
MEMBER OLIVA: Close to the side
yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just one at a
time.
BOARD ASST.: We need to get it into
the record so we need to just ask you to
please speak into the mike.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sorry.
MEMBER OLIVA: Go ahead.
MR. GORMAN: Okay, so this is the
existing deck and what we're adding
essentially is the corner to that deck,
but we would have to remove it because of
the substantial change to the foundation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold that up
one second. We're referring to the deck
on the waterside.
MR, GORMAN: Correct.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Basically the
easterly corner.
MEMBER OLIVA: And that makes your
side yard 8.5 feet from the edge of the
property?
MR. GORMAN: Well, it exists at 8.5
feet, but when we square that corner off
it will be down to 6.6 feet, but we're
prepared to do this, the 8.5, and keep
that so we maintain that 8.5 distance.
MEMBER OLIVA: That would be better.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's what I
had requested they do that.
MR. GORMAN: Right and we're
certainly fine. We just --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to
wrap this all up before we get out of
this hearing anyway so we know where
we're going. Okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to add
that in addition to the proposed
wraparound deck, which is reducing the
side yard substantially, you have a
proposed wood steps that are also
encroaching into the side yard that would
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even lessen the clearance. So I think
we're in agreement that maintaining the
8.5 foot side yard is a reasonable thing
to do.
I understand that the pool -- I
wanted to ask you do the applicant's own
the landward parcel, the lot parcel to
the roadside. The roadside parcel, do
they own that as well?
MR. GORMAN: Yes, they do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. That makes a
difference in terms of the right-of-way
and all of that in terms of pool
screening and things.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The proposed pool
house and pool are not subject of a
variance. They appear to be meeting
Code, however, with -- inconsideration of
your neighbor's concern, it's a very tall
structure that existing barn-type
proposed pool house.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It will make a very
large difference flopping it in the
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middle of a site rather than on the side.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So with respect to
the visual impact and the change in the
character of that area, I think
incorporating a landscape plan along that
property boundary, which would then also
continue down toward the water for
purposes of visual screening cause the
new house is going to be substantially
larger and if you maintain the existing
deck setback that may address some of the
issues.
The other thing is that there is a -
- your foundation plan is showing a
really substantial change in the existing
foundation.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a lot of tear
down, it's a virtual tear down. Here we
have the -- I just want to make sure that
is the accurate plan.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we put a
number on that plan so we could address
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that?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
want to number it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
foundation plan number 1.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Fl.
Sure what do you
Call it
MEMBER WEISMAN: We'll call it FI,
this is drawing Fi for the record. Of
course, you don't -- let's see. You've
got foundation sections in here, fine
it's clear what that is. Nothing on any
plans that we have show footings for the
deck, the proposed deck.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Given the proximity
to the bluff and the elevation, I think
it would be helpful for us to have, when
you submit a revised plan, an alternate
plan --
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to incorporate
the footings, the structural footings for
the deck and the elevation of that deck
and any attendant railings that are
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required --
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- by Code.
BOARD ASST.: Something on the
foundation plan, site plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you could do
it on the foundation plan cause it's
really coming right off of that proposed
wall of the foundation.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have had
applications before us when this much
tear down was to take place with this
much reconstruction of a foundation where
we really requested setbacks considerably
farther from the bluff.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I'd like to see
reasons why with this much demolition,
obviously, everybody wants to stay close
to the bluff for their view --
MR. GORMAN: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but we need to
make sure that we have substantial reason
as to why this house can remain in that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
position. So if there's any additional
information you can supply us either now
or in the next iteration as to why, given
this much demolition, this house needs to
stay on this footprint.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be
helpful to this application, I think.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I would
like is a -- I'd like you to submit the
plan for the pool house before the
Building Department to make sure that
they don't have a specific problem with
the contents of the floor plan of the
pool house. I would also like you to
indicate that based upon the neighbor's
letter that the sanitary system will stay
in its present location and they will be
drive-over tops to the rings or if you
intend to change the sanitary system that
you have Health Department approval to
place it in a specific location that they
feel is adequate that would not be drive
over.
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MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to
address the sensitive nature of an
asphalt driveway and the drainage there
to since the property tends to pitch
toward the water.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's just my
opinion. It's very difficult to look at
that, but I've been there twice and I do
see a natural -- you see it more the
front of the house to the rear of the
house rather, but you can see the
driveway is, I mean, I'm sure you're
going to build some of that up, okay,
when the construction is completed and
the landscaping. So that's the other
issue.
I have to tell you that what we're
asking for is relatively -- you know,
there's some significant changes. I
think it's going to take a little while
for you to do this. I would like to put
you back on the July calendar as we did
the prior hearing. Does anybody have an
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
objection to that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I think that's
a good idea.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
Secondly, or thirdly, I'd like you,
again, to address the neighbor's
concerns. Member Oliva did discuss the
patio issue and the cutting back of the
patio at least for some sort of access to
the -- what we, of course, know the
landscaping plan in place in between
that, however, in looking --
MR. GORMAN: The patio by the pool?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By the pool.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And so on and
so forth, the neighbor also addresses the
overhead power line and where that's
going to be done, where that's going to
be placed and so on and so forth and any
other mitigating factors you're going to
be dealing with regarding the
reconstruction of the rear of the house
as it pertains to the waterfront.
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BOARD ASST.: Is that the north side
rear or the south side rear?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're
referring to the waterfront side.
BOARD ASST.: The north side. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason why
the house really I don't think is too --
yeah, maybe it is facing, I just saw the
north arrow it's more north than it is
west.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's northwesterly
to be technical.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want us
to go over it again or do you think you
have it all down?
MR. GORMAN: Well, I have -- but
I'll -- are we looking to reduce the
setback from the pool patio?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. GORMAN: We're looking to
increase the setback.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
9 or 10 feet minimum, Mrs.
We always need
Oliva is
requesting a little more than that, okay,
to get machinery in you need 8 feet wide
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
if you need to get a backhoe in --
MR. GORMAN: I didn't -- I'm sorry,
I didn't get that letter. So I haven't
seen the letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll give you
a copy of the letter.
MR. GORMAN: Okay. Then she's
asking for some --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Screening.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're asking
for a landscape plan, not just screening,
for a full-blown landscape plan with
drip-system so that this thing goes on.
You know, so that they're constantly --
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- nurtured.
MEMBER OLIVA: And you're putting in
an asphalt driveway?
MR. GORMAN: Well, this one area, an
asphalt parking area, not the whole
driveway.
MEMBER OLIVA: Not the whole
driveway.
MR. GORMAN: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: It would be so much
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better if you put impervious.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to see
a drainage plan on that.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You realize
that the sanitary system is very close to
that and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You also wanted to
have submitted more details about the
proposal for the pool house and --
MR. GORMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh and we
wanted you to bring the plans --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, to insure
that it's not habitable space.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- to the
Building Department just to make sure
that's done properly.
MR. GORMAN: It is not habitable.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Absolutely.
BOARD ASST.: The Building
Department said that they had not
reviewed any plans for the pool house and
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MR. GORMAN: Yeah, it exists and
we're just going to move it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And refurbish it,
I'm sure. In the process of moving it
over they'll do something with it.
MR. GORMAN: Something, I'm sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we need what
that something will be.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: The Building
Department is interested to see if you're
going to hook up to a sanitary system for
a bathroom and all the utilities.
MR. GORMAN: In the pool house?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah. We have an
extra copy, the letter came in late
yesterday. We tried to send it by email,
but our system blocked it over the
weekend so we never got it until late,
it's from Mr. and Mrs. Burnham.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Burnham.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Charles and Penny
Burnham, B-U-R-N-H-A-M.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
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CHAIRMAN
Road.
MR. GORMAN:
met Mr. Burnham.
BOARD ASST.:
GOEHRINGER: 3155 Pine Neck
No, I'm familiar. I've
He's a very nice man.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only other
thing that we're discussing is what
Member Dinizio discussed and that is
holding the 8.5 on the southeast side.
MR. GORMAN: And we want to see,
again, incorporated into the landscape
screening on the east side
to show footings for the deck
plan visual
and we want
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAN: -- and elevations and
then the plans on the septic system.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And any
mitigating measures you're going to take
along the water during construction.
MR. GORMAN: Mitigating?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hay bales.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hay bales.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Whatever
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
you're going to do.
BOARD ASST.: And then the 5.5 foot
setback you're going to do, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where?
BOARD ASST.: Weren't you talking
about reducing the 5.5?
MR. GORMAN: I think we were going
to maintain the 8.5.
BOARD ASST.: Is that where you left
it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm, yes.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah, we were just
going to square that off -- angle that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you'd
recalculate the lot coverage with the
reduction of that deck, too, that way
drop it below 20 percent.
BOARD ASST.: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there
anybody here who would like to speak --
you're welcome to stay there.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody
like to speak for or against this
application at this particular time?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Please reme~Der that this is a ongoing
application. I am not stopping anybody
from speaking. What we want to do is we
want to have all of this reduced to
something that we can see before us and
we can submit it to the audience that
day, which will be July 24tn --
BOARD ASST.: But we would need it
at least a week before that meeting.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does anybody
want to speak, this is appeal #61567
Seeing no hands, I'll make a
resolution to adjourn this hearing until
July 24th -- at what time was it?
BOARD ASST.: 2 pm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- 2 pm.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6163 - James Young
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Location of Property: 35335 Route
25 (North Side), Orient; CTM 1000-19-2-11
existing with 87,171.7 square feet, and
CTM 9.1 existing with 49,231 square feet.
Request for Variances under Sections 280-
12, 280-14, 280-15, based on the Building
Inspector's April 23, 2008 amended Notice
of Disapproval concerning:
(1) a proposed lot line change
between Lots 11 and 9.1 will result
in a reduced lot size for Lot 9.1
from 49,231 square feet to 31,802
square feet, after deducting the
square footage for the right-of-way
easement, instead of the code-
required 40,000 square feet;
(2) additions and alternations are
proposed for the existing barn for
the proposed conversion from an
accessory building to a single-
family dwelling, which will result
in a proposed front yard setback at
less than 50 feet (from the new
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ZBA Town of $outhold - May 29, 2008
division line in this lot line
change), and a single setback of
less than 15 feet from the existing
easterly side lot line;
(3) the proposed in-ground swimming
pool, deck and accessory pool house
(Lot #1) is proposed in a front
yard, rather than the code-required
rear yard;
(4) the new accessory pool house
building is not permitted as
proposed because it is deemed to be
the same as a second dwelling unit."
Mr. Young, would you like to tell us
what you want to do?
MR. YOUNG: Good morning members of
the Board and associates.
What we want to do is save this old
barn and so having to do that we would
have to change this lot line from lot 1
to lot 2. So, basically, I guess we're
kind of reshuffling the cards so the land
is going to be the same. In total, two
lots is about 3.1 acres.
The barn was actually built in the
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early 1900s and there's a little history
of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you speak
a little louder?
MR. YOUNG: Oh, sorry. Can you hear
me now? Sorry.
BOARD ASST.: Maybe you can pull it
up a little bit?
MR. YOUNG: Is that better now?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's
better.
MR. YOUNG: It was built from used
lumber from a ship that was washed up on
Eagle Neck.
So anyway the setback -- the
existing setback now is about 12 feet
from the northeast corner and the other
corner is actually 17 feet. So it really
complies. Now we spent a lot of time
with Mr. Ehlers on the survey trying to
figure out where to put the lot line
because we didn't want to compromise lot
1. $o we think we've come up with the
best solution in so far as that.
As you can see at extreme it's 35
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feet and then it slopes away to 43 feet.
So we are asking for relief on that
respect.
With regard to the pool house, I
submitted new amended plans and took out
the indoor shower and replaced it with an
outdoor shower.
MEMBER OLIVA: Very good.
MR. YOUNG: So I think that takes
care of one of the strikes. With regard
to the pool being in the front yard, the
pool actually is in the rear yard which
has been in existence for 196 years, it's
just we've got this weird situation with
the right-of-way to service the back lot.
MEMBER OLIVA: So you have two front
yards, in other words.
MR. YOUNG: Yeah, so that kind of
created that situation, but I say it's
not really a road, it's kind of a service
lane to get to the back and we're also
fortunate we own the lot
right. So no one really
affected all that much.
We're also going to
8.1 to the
is going to be
do extensive
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
relandscaping anyway. For our own needs
we want to make sure that no one can see
the pool from the road. So that's kind
of about it really.
MEMBER OLIVA: Well, I knew the
previous owners.
MR. YOUNG: Oh, you did.
MEMBER OLIVA: I live in Orient,
too. They used to keep horses there.
MR. YOUNG: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's a beautiful
piece and your barn is absolutely
exquisite.
MR. YOUNG: Well, thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: It'd be a shame not
to restore it to its original condition.
MR. YOUNG: Well, that's what we're
trying to do and, you know, we didn't --
I didn't want to relocate it mainly for
historic reasons and the cost.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right. As long as
you put the outdoor shower on the pool
house.
MR. YOUNG: Yes, we did do that.
MEMBER OLIVA: I don't really have
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any big problems with changing the lot
line. I think you've done as much as you
can. Maybe somebody else will think
differently, but I'd like to see the old
Orient kept as much old Orient as
possible.
MR. YOUNG: Well, unfortunately, I'm
a bit of a sucker, I like old homes.
It's nothing but a money pit.
MEMBER OLIVA: I know they are.
MR. YOUNG: And the architect did a
great job in designing the barn and the
pool house and, eventually, we'll
reshingle the old house. So I think
it'll look pretty special. On a personal
note, I've been fortunate to become a
grandfather and we have four
grandchildren, two lots of identical twin
girls.
MEMBER OLIVA: Wow.
MR. YOUNG: So we need a little more
space.
MEMBER OLIVA: I think so.
MR. YOUNG: I certainly appreciate
the Board considering this and your help
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
to save this barn.
MEMBER OLIVA:
else?
Thank you.
Thank you. Somebody
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question is
how come the lot line is shown directly
in back of the barn?
MR. YOUNG: Oh, that's existing lot
line.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's existing.
MR. YOUNG: The old lot line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the new lot
line is going to be encompassing all of
number 117
MR. YOUNG: Let me have a look at
this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to
include all of Lot 11 --
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- along with
the new lot that we're creating based
upon the proposed lot line change on the
existing house?
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. YOUNG: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that
correct?
MR. YOUNG: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's
going to have 2.0 acres, plus the piece
that's 85 and 67 by 192.
MR. YOUNG: Correct. Which will be
about 2.33 acres.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: About 2.33
MR. YOUNG: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just
wanted to clear that up. That is not
development rights property, that 2
acres?
MR. YOUNG: No, it's not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's all
righted property.
MR. YOUNG: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. YOUNG: Hi.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Hi, how are you?
Good morning.
I just wanted to
point out that the barn has been in that
same location for about 83 years and it
is an Historic structure and it has a
full foundation and basement, so moving
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
it is really out of the question.
Moreover, the side yard -- the single
side yard setback of 12 feet is only for
one corner of that barn.
MR. YOUNG: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's actually 17
feet for most of the length, so it's very
minimal variance for side yard.
Is the proposed pool house heated or
air conditioned?
MR. YOUNG: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so it's a
seasonal use?
MR YOUNG: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that's --
let me just see. I think that's fine.
It might also be helpful to point out
that you are also the owner of the piece
of property adjacent to the west of your
home so that what you are proposing in
the way of a pool and pool house will
have no visual impact on that neighbor at
all because you are the neighbor.
MR. YOUNG: That's correct, but even
so we're going to landscape it because we
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
want --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
privacy.
MR. YOUNG:
Ruth's been out
You want some
I mean I love it.
there and it's a special
piece of property and I feel really
privileged.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The barn is a
really remarkable piece of architecture
and you're right the architects have done
a really wonderful job in proposing the
conversion to a dwelling. I think the
issues are clarified. One becomes a
technicality of the right-of-way creating
a second front yard when, in fact, it's
the architectural rear yard.
MR. YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It may be the front
-- it may be facing the front yard of
your proposed barn conversion, but, in
any case, I don't really have any issues
with any of these. They're fairly minor
variances all the way around. I wish you
good luck with the place.
MR. YOUNG: Thank you very much. I
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ZBA Town of $outhold - May 29, 2008
appreciate it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One more, one
more. Jim?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Do you intend -- I
see you're putting a little addition on
the barn, I'm assuming that's just to
allow for getting in and out of the barn
properly.
MR. YOUNG: Well, I think it was
really aesthetically to square it off.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, that's what
I mean. It's not like you're putting
extra bedrooms and --
MR. YOUNG: Right. No, not at all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The barn is going
to stay that it's always been --
MR. YOUNG: Well, yeah, we're not
changing elevation, the envelope or
anything.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, well you're
changing the envelope cause you're
putting that addition in, but I don't
object to that.
MR. YOUNG: Oh,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
okay.
The -- I guess what
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
I would object to is that if you were to
someday want to increase the size of this
barn in some way.
MR. YOUNG: It's pretty large to
begin with.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
any objection to us
Well, do you have
stating that, that
the barn stays the way it is?
MR. YOUNG: Do you mean you're
objecting to adding on the 15 feet?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, adding on to
the barn, in other words, you know, I
mean this is a large piece of property.
The barn in its present location has been
in its present location for some 90
years.
MR. YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And this Board's
going to grant a variance based on that,
certainly we're converting an accessory
structure, but not really because it's on
a separate lot now or it will be if you
get that lot line changed, but I think
we're basing most of our decision on the
fact that this is a fairly historic piece
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
of building here. I mean, I heard about
this building many years ago about how --
what it was built from and talked to a
person who, I guess, knew a person. You
know what I mean?
MR. YOUNG: Right, now I want to
keep it that way, too.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. Well we're
going to base the decision on that, based
on that. I was wondering if there's any
reason you might think that you would not
want to be restricted from adding onto
that barn 10 years from now?
MR. YOUNG: I don't believe so, I'll
probably be dead by then.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree, but you
got two identical twins that may feel
differently. I'm just wondering if, in
our decision, you would have any
objection to us stating that the barn
must remain as per this plan.
MR. YOUNG: No. I think that's -- I
don't have a problem with that, I really
don't.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You could think a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
while and --
MR. YOUNG:
another -- I mean I
heirs, you know, in
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I mean you could put
can't state for my
20 years' time or --
No, but -- well,
you're not doing this for your heirs
you're dong this for you and they're ging
to have to live with your decision,
that's fine. I'm concerned that you have
a barn that you're basing it on the
Historic facts of this barn. I'd hate to
see that ruined.
MR. YOUNG: Well,
ruin it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
intend to.
MR. YOUNG: That's
this way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
I don't want to
know you don't
why we've done it
think we're going
to make our decision based on that and
we're going to say, yeah, you can have it
there, you can put a dwelling inside that
barn --
MR. YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- as you're asking
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
for, but you can't increase that barn.
You can't increase the size of that barn
beyond what we're proposing -- what
you're proposing today.
BOARD ASST.: May I ask you a
question? Are you saying there should be
no more variances on the barn if he needs
to add a porch or something?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not necessarily,
I'm just concerned about changing the
shape of the barn and, you know, I mean
if he needs a variance for a small little
deck or something or --
BOARD ASST.: So the resolution
would say as per plan that you gave Mr.
Young, but the condition, I think the
Board would have to work out the wording
if there were a condition on it.
MR. YOUNG: Well, that would be good
because if it's just a blanket thing, I
don't, you know, my family feels the same
about the integrity of the barn.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I mean, let's
say you want to throw dormers on it or
you wanted, you know, you want to change
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
that barn in some way.
MR. YOUNG: Well,
so.
BOARD ASST.:
to need variances
I don't believe
You're probably going
anyway to do anything.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Pardon?
BOARD ASST.: You're probably going
to need variances to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree, I agree.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to
vote on this anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We'll have to vote
on this, but I believe the application
stands the way it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
Right.
no. I think I
got my answer. I think he's fairly
uncomfortable with being restricted and I
just want to get it on the record that
that is what it is and I have no
objection to this being a mansion 20
years from now, it doesn't make any
difference to me. It's just we are
basing this on a Historic building and
I'm hoping that it remains that way.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
That we're clear that that is why we're
making that decision. You know, we're
granting a lot line change because of it,
we're making a lot -- another lot smaller
because of it, all things that I've seen
in the past that have
I think this is, like
piece of Heaven.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
not taken place and
Ruth, this is a
It is.
And this will not
that line that you have drawn on this
map will not be seen by anybody.
Everybody driving by it will just realize
that it's been that way forever --
MR. YOUNG: Yes, it has.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and it will stay
that way.
MR YOUNG: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But, again, it has
stayed the way it is now because it was
on that same lot. It was restricted to
being an accessory structure and now it's
going to be a principle structure. The
next person who purchases that lot may
not be as in love with the barn --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. YOUNG: Can we put a restrictive
covenant on the sale?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. Not
necessarily. No, because we can do it
granting the variance. You know, we're
going to grant you a variance, a setback
variance on that,
this plan this is
remain. You know,
and we can say as per
the way it's going to
they can fight that.
They can come back later on and ask for a
variance from that. You know, we just
want to -- I feel like if we're going to
make the decision based on how old this
barn is and how it got constructed and
what it's made up, we're telling the
people down the road look this exists
because of that.
MR. YOUNG: Well, I'm telling my
children and the grandchildren they can't
ever sell this.
MEMBER OLIVA: You write it into
your will.
MR. YOUNG: I'm really holding on to
this as long as I can. I can't really
afford to --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: You may have enough
room to put a cemetery there, so you can
watch it forever.
That's all I have. Thank you.
MR. YOUNG: Thank you, I appreciate
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there
anyone else would like to speak in favor
or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(See Minutes
Second.
for Resolution.)
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74
ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6159 - Robert Swing
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's March 27, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed
(westerly) addition and alternations to
an existing (nonconforming) dwelling with
a single side yard at less than 10 feet,
total side yards at less than 25 feet,
and lot coverage exceeding the code
limitation of 20%, at 4295 Bay Shore Road
(land adjacent to Shelter Island Sound),
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Greenport; CTM 1000-53-6-24."
Yes, Mr. Anderson.
MR. ANDERSON:
today?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. ANDERSON:
How is everyone
Oh, we're fine.
Bruce Anderson for
Robert Swing. This is an application to
put an addition onto an existing single-
family residence at Bay Shore Avenue,
here in the Town of Southold.
This particular lot contains 10,000
square feet, it's a preexisting
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
nonconforming lot, it's also a waterfront
lot. The survey before you shows the
meets and bounds of the overall site. Be
advised that 3200 square feet is actually
underwater land. So what we're left with
here is about 6800 square feet of upland
area. The other thing that I want you to
notice is that the easterly lot line,
which is the Pike's Cove lot line, we'll
call it, is 75 feet and the westerly lot
line which borders on Bay Shore Road is
40 feet. So the lot narrows and that
creates some hardship for the applicant.
Finally, the existing side yard
setback to the north is at 6 feet. We
would be encroaching to about 5.7,or
about 3 inches closer and that's just to
square-off the building. Also, the
existing side yard setback to the south,
which is actually on a spur of Island
View Lane, is 1 inch and the proposed
addition would be 5.8 feet off that lot
line.
The footprint of the proposed
addition is 630 square feet, which is
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
small. It is a one and a half story
structure. The second floor is basically
a loft addition of which 440 square feet
is storage, the remainder being open to
the floor below. You should also know
that originally we had hoped to simply
put a second floor addition on top of the
existing one-story frame house, but were
turned away from the DEC because that
exiting house is less than 75 feet from
the wetland boundaries. That forced us
to build essentially behind the existing
house and that's why you see the proposal
that you see today.
We've given you, I think, a fairly
comprehensive application and provided
for all the reasons relating to the
change in the neighborhood and the
character of the neighborhood. I think
it's very clear that the benefits that
are sought by the applicant can't be
achieved by any other means other than
coming before this Board. We also think
the relief requested is not substantial
because of the existing setback
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
conditions on this site, existing
dwelling, existing side lot lines to the
north and south and finally we submit
that it will not have an adverse impact
to the character of the neighborhood.
The application that was submitted
before you contains a number of
photographs. Two of the ones that I'll
use for you to understand there's a
photograph showing the existing dwelling
and how that relates to the other
dwellings in the neighborhood and that's
followed by a second aerial photograph
and it'll show you the proposed dwelling
in relationship to the others and you'll
see that the house is similar in size to
other houses in the area, that the
setbacks off of Bay Shore Road are equal
to and, in some cases, actually greater
than existing houses off of Bay Shore
Road.
So I'm hoping that our application
is sufficiently complete to answer most
questions you may have, but I'm certainly
here to answer any additional ones that
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
you may have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's the
size of the existing house square footage
wise, do you know?
MR. ANDERSON: The existing house is
1060 square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, well it's a
tiny lot.
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: And you don't have
much room to work with and I think the
DEC was wise in the decision to move it
to the rear instead of on top of the
other -- of the existing building.
There's not much to work with there, I
think they've done the best that they
can. I don't have
it.
MR. ANDERSON:
a real problem with
One thing I haven't
mentioned from the standpoint of the
environment is that we are talking about
removing a existing cesspool that's
installed underground and --
MEMBER OLIVA: I saw that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. ANDERSON: -- putting in
compliant septic system.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's it. You don't
have much room to do something with it
and the people probably need more room
and I think it was wise to move it behind
the existing building rather than on top
of the existing building and I didn't
frankly see much problem with it.
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I tend to
agree with Ruth. Normally, we would say
6 percent increase in lot coverage is
substantial, but given the size of the
lot and it's wedge-shaped proportions and
the expense of the septic system you're
putting in to make the improvement, I
think it's a perfectly modest reasonable
addition. It's exempt from the LWRP.
Most of the lots in that area are pretty
small and nonconforming and we've had a
number of cases in that area where other
people have attempted to enlarge
structures. So it's not unusual for the
character of the neighborhood and I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
really have any particular issues with it
either. You will be removing the shed
and you can't really make it any smaller.
I mean it's just a very small addition
anyway. So I think it's fine.
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was going to
come in prepared to ask you to cut down
that area on Island View Lane, bearing in
mind that you have what you have -- your
client has what he has or she has --
MR. ANDERSON: We're at 1 inch.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. I guess
I'm going to have to concede to my fellow
colleagues on that
BOARD ASST.:
coverage on this?
situation.
What is the lot
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The lot
coverage is 26 percent, 6 percent over.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 26 percent.
BOARD ASST.: 26 even?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Even.
MR. ANDERSON: I appreciate that.
It's a three-bedroom house, it'll look
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
much nicer since it's a shingle style
beach house. It'll look much nicer than
what's there now. I think the
neighborhood will be well served by it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Let's see what develops throughout
the hearing, please don't leave.
MR. ANDERSON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there
anybody else that would like to speak for
or against this application?
We need you to use the mike, ma'am.
We need you to use the mike and state
your name. Either one.
MS. HAUSER: I can't come up.
[Unable to walk to mike.] (Inaudible)
with the sewage and everything else?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. Do you
want to answer that question?
BOARD ASST.:
name, ma'am?
MS. HAUSER:
Hauser.
BOARD ASST.:
MS. HAUSER:
Can we have your full
My name is Leslie
H-A?
H-A-U-S-E-R.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
BOARD ASST.:
MS. HAUSER:
Shore Road.
BOARD ASST.:
Okay.
I live at 4220 Bay
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. ANDERSON: The answer is it
won't because the septic system that's
proposed here will be a compliant system
that protects public health, safety and
welfare. Whereas the existing cesspool
doesn't do that and I also point out that
the properties in the area are served by
public water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MS. HAUSER: Alright, now how close
is he going to be to the front street,
you know, from the lawn to the street
coming towards me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's going to
try and answer that question for you
ma' am.
MS. HAUSER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're
welcome.
MR. ANDERSON: The setback between
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
the addition to Bay Shore Avenue is 43
feet and -- is this your house?
MS. HAUSER: Yes.
MR. ANDERSON: Okay.
MS. HAUSER: Why would the
(inaudible)?
MR. ANDERSON: The setback is 43
feet and I point out the Hauser lot is
somewhat close to that, probably about 10
feet closer to Bay Shore Road.
MEMBER OLIVA: The reason it was --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's 10 feet
closer.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right, but the reason
it was turned down last time was because
they wanted to put the addition and make
it a two-story house.
MS. HAUSER: Oh, they wanted to go
up?
MEMBER OLIVA: Right and the DEC
said no, you can't do that.
MS. HAUSWER: Not on the water.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MS. HAUSER: Oh, okay. So there
will be grass?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
MS. HAUSER: I mean, I'm not going
to see all building?
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MR. ANDERSON: No, it will be
landscaped.
MEMBER OLIVA: We could put that
in.
MS. HAUSER: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, the
house, the addition, once it's built, is
going to be setback farther from the road
than your house is now.
MS. HAUSER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, you're right
across the street, right?
MS. HAUSER: Yeah, (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the way that
they're going to put this addition in --
the way this addition in the front of
their house, it will be closer to the
road, but it will still be farther back
than where your own house is from the
road.
MS. HAUSER: Oh, fine.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: So they'll have a
front yard and it's going to look very
nice. It'll be shingled and it will
probably increase the value of property
in the neighborhood because anytime
anybody builds a newer house and updates
it, you know, makes it look nicer, it
enhances everybody's property values.
MS. HAUSER: May I ask how many
rooms are going on?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Anderson, do
you want to answer that?
MR. ANDERSON: Well, it's a three-
bedroom house and there's a loft area
upstairs, which is really a one and a
half.
MS. HAUSER: I thought it was a two-
bedroom house right now.
MR. ANDERSON: It's a two-bedroom
house that will
house.
MS. HAUSER:
go to a three-bedroom
Okay, so they're adding
another bedroom and a bath or what?
MR. ANDERSON: I'm not sure if
they're adding a bathroom, but I believe
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
they're adding a bedroom.
MS. HAUSER: Oh, so they're not
adding a tremendous amount of rooms.
MR. ANDERSON:
MS. HAUSER:
MR. ANDERSON:
MS. HAUSER:
much.
NO.
(Inaudible).
No.
Alright, thank you very
MR. ANDERSON: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for
everybody's indulgence and thank you for
-- this procedure worked out pretty well.
Is there anybody else who would like
to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6160 - Joseph and
Carolyn Ferrara
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for a Variance under
Section 280-105, based on the Building
Inspector's April 8, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed tennis
court fencing which will exceed the code
limitation of four feet in height, when
located in a front yard of a residential
zone, at 2170 Maple Lane,
1000-38-8-1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Greenport; CTM
You are, sir?
MR. SHENK: Good morning, I'm Ralph
Shenk from Pro Corm representing Joseph
and Carolyn Ferrara.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we
need some green cards and an affidavit
from you.
BOARD ASST.: I just wanted, I have
some questions. I see some of the
letters came back, they were
nondeliverable.
MR. SHENK: I believe a lot of the
letters had two addresses. We sent them
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
both locally and to their other addresses
and they were received at the other
locations.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you
like to tell us, sir?
MR. SHENK: I'm not sure what it is
that you want to hear. I haven't been
before you guys before, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You never say
that. You just don't make a statement
like that.
MR. SHENK: It's too late now, I've
said it. What we're asking for here is
for an 8-foot fence on a tennis court. I
think that all the members of the Board
know that a 6-foot fence on a tennis
court just doesn't --
MEMBER OLIVA: Work.
MR. SHENK: -- work. It doesn't
hold the balls in. I can only speak from
my experience cause I have built -- I am
the builder of the court and we have
built courts on the north fork in
Southold Town before and in every single
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
case the variance was granted for the
fence as long as the tennis court met the
setbacks. In this particular location, I
can tell you that the affect of the
higher fence is mitigated in the fact
that the court sits down into a hollow in
the way it was built. So the properties
from the north looking at it are seeing -
- almost seeing the view of a 4-foot
fence. The properties to the east are
looking at the same type of situation.
So it's a very, very low impact on the
fence being above the 6-foot. 6 foot is
what we were granted actually at one
point, but also I'd like to state that
immediately to the east of this property
is a commercial piece of property with
cottages and a very old all-weather
tennis court with a 10-foot fence on it
that's right at grade sticking way up in
the air. So this particular situation is
almost even unnoticeable in comparison to
that one that you come down the road and
see both at the same time. For whatever
value that holds.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can
questions, Jim, or you want to
this one?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no.
I ask some
jump in on
I mean I -
- we've been through these tennis courts
a number of times, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, the
color of the fence is what?
MR. SHENK: The whole
black vinyl coated system,
everything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
screening that's proposed,
fence is a
poles, wire,
Any type of
you know, to
basically take some of the --
MR. SHENK: I have been told that
there will be some planting done around
the tennis court.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And what
section of the court might that be?
MR. SHENK: I believe at the north
end.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SHENK: Most particular, which
is where basically most of the homes are.
MR. FERRARA: We --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need your
name, sir.
MR. FERRARA: I'm sorry. Joseph
Ferrara, I'm the owner of the property.
We've asked the neighbors what
screening would you like and the one to
the north said it looks nice the way it
is. I said, okay. The ones to the west,
there's a lot of screening already there.
They don't seem to mind at least that's
what they told me. So for whatever
that's worth, but we're willing to screen
to anyone's contentment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll see what
develops throughout the hearing.
MEMBER OLIVA: I just, first of all,
I remember when you came in for a
variance to get the third story on your
house before you renovated it. I've
driven down there a couple of times to
admire what you've done and it is just a
beautiful job, absolutely beautiful. The
fence I went down there and it is sunk
kind of in the little hollow there and I
don't see anything wrong with it. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
don't see why you can't
fence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
have an 8-foot
have absolutely
no problem with this application, but,
for the record, I'd like to ask you are
you planning any night lighting?
MR. FERRARA: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
impact at all.
Then there is no
MR. SHENK: I can, just for the
Board's knowledge, usually when I get
asked that question by my clients I tell
them that they can play tennis from 5:00
in the morning to 9:00 at night. If
that's not enough, they don't need
lights, they need therapy.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know, I
used to play tennis until midnight myself
before my knees blew out.
MR. SHENK: Then you got the
mosquitoes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what
develops. Is there anyone who would like
to speak for or against this application?
Okay, I guess that tells the story.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
BOARD ASST.: Just one other little
thing. We did get a letter late
yesterday from the owner who had
questions last week, Mr. (Inaudible). He
said he had no objections after he spoke
to apparently he met with you in between
that time period and he gave a letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no
further comment, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving the
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6165 - Daniel and
Pasqualina Berkowitz
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under
Section 280-116B, based on the Building
Inspector's April 11, 2008 amended Notice
of Disapproval concerning a proposed
swimming pool structure with patio at
grade and a proposed rear porch addition
to the dwelling, both proposed at less
than 75 feet from the code-required
minimum setback, measured to the existing
bulkhead. Location: 3683 Pine Neck Road
at Jockey Creek, Southold; CTM 1000-70-6-
23."
Before you get involved in that,
Rob, and we, of course, need you to state
your name for the record, some of the
people were not here for this. We are
taking a break at exactly -- it's
actually a lunch recess at 11:30 on the
dot.
BOARD ASST.: It's actually mandated
by the Court, by the Justice Court.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So if you are
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
not up until that time, we will reconvene
at 12:30, okay? We have no other choice
there is nothing we can do about that.
Rob, would you state your name for
the record?
MR. HERMANN: Yes. Rob Hermann of
EN Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road,
Southampton 11968. Morning, I will be
quick so you can get more in before
lunch, I hope.
This should be a very
straightforward request for appeal.
There are two components to it. One is a
proposed swimming pool, which as the
Board knows, is my favorite appeal where
we're looking for relief from a shoreline
structure in a location where the
swimming pool exceeds the required
wetlands setback under 275, but still
needs relief from this Board under Zoning
Code chapter 280. I would think that as
far as the neighborhood is concerned this
would be a very desirable application.
There exists now, approximately 46.7 feet
from the existing retaining wall, an
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
above ground swimming pool with adjacent
raised deck. Those structures will be
eliminated and there will be a in-ground
swimming pool constructed in
approximately the same location except
2.3 feet farther from the retaining wall
surrounded by a masonry patio at grade.
So, all of the structures that are
currently elevated and up in the air will
be eliminated in favor of structures at
grade in virtually the same location.
There is also a porch addition
proposed in line with the existing rear
attached deck. That is almost a variance
by accident. It is 74 rather than 75
feet from the retaining wall, but stays
in line with the existing structure in
the back. As far as mitigation for the
project, certainly environmental
mitigation not really to mitigate what's
being proposed because there really is no
change in conditions, but really just to
mitigate the preexisting condition, which
will be continued in an aesthetically
preferable way. We are proposing to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
install a drywell that will be dedicated
to capturing pool backwash. We are
proposing to install a drainage system of
drywells for the entire existing dwelling
structure, although the addition to the
structure is almost inconsequential.
There is a
coverage of 456
of the project.
net increase in lot
square feet as a result
We are mitigating that
with the establishment of a 2,640 square
foot non-turf buffer adjacent to the
retaining wall and really from the
wetlands boundary up to the 8-foot
elevation contour that will be planted
with native vegetation in place of
existing lawn. So between the addition
of the drainage system of drywells and
the non-turf buffer, we're certainly
mitigating any potential impact of the
project with respect to any environmental
concerns.
The project is located landward of
the New York State DEC jurisdiction. We
have a letter of non-jurisdiction from
February 27th of this year. We also have
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
a wetlands, Town wetlands permit from the
Trustees that was issued last December.
That's all I have. I'm happy to
entertain questions from the Board, but
again I think the net impact of the
project will certainly be an improvement
to this property and as far as any
neighbors are concerned, would always
like to see an above ground pool replaced
with an in-ground pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a
gunite pool?
MR. HERMANN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there
any reason why we're going 20 by 40 other
than that's what they want?
MR. HERMANN: That's what they want.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In this
situation the property slopes away so in
reality you are saying that the pool is
in-ground, but a certain portion of it
either has to be back filled on one side
and some retainance has to go in there or
-- I mean I would say one side of the
pool is going to be a little bit out of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
the ground; is it not, particularly the
side towards the water?
MR. HERMANN: The area where, I mean
the basically the pool, the seaward side
of the pool, if you will, will actually
be landward of the seaward side of the
existing pool and that are is hard to see
because there's deck and everything
there, but that's -- it's reasonably
flat. It's not like we're going down
that slope. You don't really hit the
slope until you get to about the 12-foot
contour and then there is a pretty
notable run down toward the water, but
not in this area. This is all disturbed
existing area.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
it when I was there
Gerry, I measured
and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, go
ahead, I couldn't visualize --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it's all on the
flat part.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, I thought it
was flat, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
pumping necessary? Is this going to be
an extremely deep pool or is it going to
be more --
MR. HERMANN: No because we're up
around 14 or 15 foot elevation so with
the -- even a 6 or 7 foot pool you're
only -- you're still only 6 or 7 feet
into grade, so I don't expect that we'll
have any dewatering required here. You
probably find here groundwater elevation
probably around 4 or 3.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. HERMANN: So we're -- again,
there is a drop down near the water, but
up in the area of the house it's pretty
well raised.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the pool
equipment in a soundproof cabinet?
MR. HERMANN: Let me see, do we show
the pool equipment on here?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You do show it,
yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERMANN:
we
No.
I think we do. Yeah,
show it on the west side of the house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Now we did not go as far as to show any
screening or fencing or whatever around
that equipment, but certainly it would be
in the owner's interest as well as any
owner to the west that that be sound
proofed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HERMANN: So whatever the
Board's pleasure is there, whatever your
normal practice is, we'd certainly want
to follow that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Assuming the
Board was not interested in 20 by 40, are
you okay with alternate relief situation
based upon the vote?
MR. HERMANN: Gerry, I don't think
so because I think if this were a
situation where it were a new pool or we
were proposing some sort of further
encroachment, I think I would probably
yield more easily to that, but again here
is a situation where the pool would be
actually increasing the preexisting
setback and it exceeds the wetlands
setback under 275, so but for this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
railroad tie retaining wall, we would not
be here for relief from this Board. So
to me I think it would be almost
arbitrary by the Board to reduce the size
of the pool because you're really not
gaining anything for that other than a
mathematical increase.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the only
reason I say that is a 20 by 40 foot pool
usually has between 27,000 and almost
30,000 gallons of water, which is a
substantial amount of water that close to
MR. HERMANN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- a very
substantial inlet of Jockey Creek and
that's the only reason I'm raising that
issue.
Leslie,
of the --
I'm sorry,
I've taken some
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. Ail of the
points that I read in your application
and observed at the site, you've covered
very clearly. My questions have all been
answered. Actually, the real relief is
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
actually one foot for a porch, which is
really nothing given the situation here.
You're just squaring off --
MR. HERMANN: Yeah, and again I
discussed that with the applicants ahead
of time because to that end that one foot
of relief is "self-created," but to
diminish the one foot you'd suddenly
create this jog between the deck and the
porch and it just -- again with the
existing structure there it's a small
porch and it's certainly consistent. I
submitted photos with the application
that shows the similar alignment to the
east on the adjacent property to the
east, so I thought that that one foot
there is really nothing to be gained as
far as setback mitigation with respect to
the use, 12 by 16 porch.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any
questions, it's fine.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
No questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No. I think Rob
explained it very well, no problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
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Just stay there and we'll see what
develops.
Is there anybody else who would like
to speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6158 - Michael Judge
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under
Section 280-15, based on the Building
Inspector's April 7, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an accessory
swimming pool and accessory (pool house)
building, proposed in a side yard rather
than the code-permitted location in a
front or rear yard, at 13007 Oreqon Road,
land adjacent to the Long Island Sound,
Cutchogue; CTM 1000-83-2-11.14."
Basically the pool is in the
waterfront yard and the pool house is in
the side yard according to the survey, it
would appear. Before I ask any
questions, perhaps Mr. Cuddy needs to
enter his name into the record.
MR. CUDDY: Charles Cuddy for the
applicant, good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning.
Perhaps you want to say whatever it is
you want to say and you may answer some
of the questions I have in the process
and then I'll have some questions after.
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MR. CUDDY: Yes. One of the
problems I think that's apparent is the
way the lines are drawn, but before I get
to how those lines are diagonal instead
of perpendicular, I want to point out to
you that this lot, while it appears to be
somewhat large, has covenants and
restrictions not only from the Town in
the sense that you have the bluff
problem, but we have a covenant that
prohibits us from building within 150
feet of the top of the bluff.
So, essentially, what we have is a
lot that's reduced to about 1-1/2 acres
in size because we can't use a good
portion of it. Our house is set back,
but it's set back to try and give us some
front yard because, effectively, if
you've been to the site you can see that
the rear yard is essentially a wooded
area. It's completely obscured so you
can't even see the Sound from this house.
The question that I first raised was
having to do with the lines and where the
yards are. Most of us would think the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
backyard of this house or the rear yard
of the house is in back of the house.
That didn't happen here because the yard
lines are drawn either by the way the
street is or by the way lot line is.
Here, because it's a private entrance
way, we had to draw the lines according
to the Building Department diagonal to
the existing either Sound line or front
line. So we did that and when we do that
basically the pool, which would normally
be in the back yard is in the side yard.
Even part of the pool house, which is
also our application, would probably be
in the rear yard, but be that as it may
the pool house certainly part of it is in
the side yard.
We're asking the Board to permit us
to have that because the way the house is
laid out this is syn~metrical and it tries
to make use of the house the pool/patio
area, all as one unit. I point out to
you that if this house were erected with
enclosures, so that the pool and the pool
house was enclosed, it would meet all of
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
the requirements. There's nothing about
it that would be in violation. The
setbacks would be right, the -- I'm sure
in this case the neighbors aren't going
to be bothered because it's in a good
distance, but we would meet every
requirement if we enclosed it. We just
haven't enclosed it, it wasn't intended
to be enclosed, but frankly we could have
done that and then we probably wouldn't
be here.
I believe that we really don't have
much of an alternative. I know that
there's a question always about the front
yard. The front yard has a water line
running through it. It's the only area
that's really open on this lot and I
think that the owner has tried to
maximize some landscaping so that when
you see the lot it has some meaning to it
because otherwise the back of it just
doesn't allow you to do anything, but I'm
happy to answer your questions. I may
have spoken too long already, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, not at all.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
tell you we have 5 minutes, Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well let me -
- we have an arraignment happening at
11:30 and we have to adjourn.
MR. CUDDY: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: My question is
regarding the pool house itself. Is
there any proposed heat or air
conditioning?
of.
MR. CUDDY: No, not that I'm aware
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, it includes a
half-bath, a changing room, toilet and
sink. Any showers or outdoor showers?
MR. CUDDY: No,
outdoors.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Alright, so the bar,
the shower would be
Shower outdoors.
refrigerator, sink,
dishwasher, but
seasonal use, I
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
address, for a moment,
this is going to be then
would presume?
Okay. Can you just
the drainage?
There's going to have to be a little bit
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
of a level change for the pool as
proposed?
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you just
address for a moment how you're going to
handle the grading in that area?
MR. CUDDY: I have Doug Adams here
from Young and Young who is an engineer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. CUDDY: He's probably much
better qualified than I to answer that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be
great. I mean it's not difficult to
handle, but I just want, for the record,
information about how that's going to
work.
MR. ADAMS: Doug Adams for Young and
Young, Riverhead.
I think the plan before you doesn't
really get into detail in that regard and
I think that we would further address
that to make sure that we wouldn't,
obviously, have any run off heading
toward the bluff. In fact, in this area
it's sort of a lull in the back similar
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
to the previous applicant, Rob, I think
it was pitching away from the bluff
anyway, if that was your concern.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is.
MR. ADA~MS: It's pretty flat there
now. If you reme~er visiting there, I
think it slopes off to the I guess that
would be the northwest where there's a
natural sort of path down to the beach
that I think the applicant uses now, but,
barring that trying to stay away from
that and just staying with the existing
grade, I think it's fairly level in the
area of the proposed pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mostly, but as you
approach the Sound actually the elevation
rises.
MR. ADAMS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're going to
have to do a little cutting into that.
MR. ADAMS: Yeah,
think that --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that's right. I
That's actually
what I'm talking about. I'm not
suggesting that it's going to be rolling
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
toward the bluff, quite the contrary.
MR. ADAMS: To us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's going to be
rolling back onto the property.
MR. ADAMS: Right, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I simply want to
-- I have to write this finding and I
want to make sure that --
MR. ADAMS: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- I address all --
MR. ADAMS: I think that it is
inadequately addressed on the plan that
you're looking at because I think we were
just waiting to see where we were
actually going to be doing this before we
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you submit in
the next couple of days to the office for
the file, just a letter describing how
you're going to handle drainage?
MR. ADAMS: Yes, certainly.
Certainly we can.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that that's
incorporated into the record because any
time you have waterfront property with a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
setback. We
that, but it
questions.
slope, we need to know that.
MR. ADAMS: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any
further questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you,
sir.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I concur with
Mr. Cuddy that it's a principle setback
it should probably not be before us. You
know, as long as you follow the principle
have in the past discussed
never happened. I have no
MEMBER OLIVA: No. It's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Cuddy, I
have no objection to this at all. I
understand the plight that you have based
upon the CNR and I think that the
property itself stands alone at this
particular date.
MR. CUDDY: The impact on the
neighbors is nonexistent as far as we're
concerned.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. As you
know, the questions that we usually ask
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
regarding the pool house is that
basically of keeping it as an accessory
structure and that's what we're concerned
about.
MR. CUDDY: Absolutely, there's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not
speaking for the Board, I'm going to say
my particular concern and I didn't ask
those questions, my colleague did, I
would assume that's probably the same
situation. Okay?
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So bearing
that in mind, let's see if anybody else
would like to speak.
Is there anybody else would like to
speak either in favor or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We closed that
subject to receiving something from Young
and Young; is that correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I'll change my
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll just
incorporate that in my --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Do you
want me to change the resolution or is it
alright to add it like that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's fine.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6164 - Mattituck Park
District
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for a Variance under
Section 280-15E, based on the Building
Inspector's April 4, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning accessory sports
lighting with poles exceeding the code
height limitation of 18 feet (70 feet and
80 foot high poles are proposed), at 350
Aldrich Lane, Mattituck (Aldrich Lane
Athletic Fields), Laurel; CTM 1000-125-1-
2.6."
Gail, I'll let you have your say.
MS. WICKHAM: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Gall, I'm
afraid -- Ms. Wickham, I'm afraid you're
not going to have -- be able to we've
just gotten the high sign that the Judge
has arrived and so, therefore, we're
going to adjourn.
MS. WICKHAM: You're going to squash
my testimony.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we're
going to give you time --
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MS. WICKHAM:
more. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
more enticing.
I'll make
12:30.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(See Minutes
To prepare a little
-- to make it
a resolution to adjourn to
Second.
for Resolution.)
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pick one.
MS. WICKHAM: Hi, my name is Abigail
Wickham. I'm representing the Mattituck
Park District. I also have with me Ray
Ambrosio who is the electrical engineer
and certified lighting designer with Ward
Associates who is the company that the
Park District hired to design the
lighting system and help us get it out to
bid and get it approved.
Let me just go back to a few basics
because some of you may not be familiar
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- Mattituck Park
(continued)
Good morning -- good
HEARING #6164
District
MS. WICKHAM:
afternoon.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
with the Park District. It was created
by the State Legislature in 1941. It's a
quasi-governmental entity and thanks
primarily to Mr. Goehringer, who was a
commissioner for 30 years, and other
commissioners who worked with him, the
Park District has been the most active
recreational facilities by far of any
Park District on the north fork.
The athletic fields that I'll
explain are renowned and it has hosted
baseball and soccer programs for many,
many years. I'm not simply a baseball
expert, but I do know I have spent
countless hours with my kids on those
fields in the soccer program and if you
multiply us by the hundreds and hundreds
of children who have played there over
the years, we're talking about thousands
of children ages 4 to 18 who have used
those facilities over the years. That
includes instructional ball for the very
young children in the summertime. It's
noncompetitive, it's fun and it's
learning and they have hundreds of kids
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
that participate in that and this program
then feeds the other programs. The PAL
and travel soccer that go up to Long
Island Juniors competition and onto high
school ball. The program has really fed
the school program resulting in state
championships in both Mattituck and
Southold for many, many years.
The way the program in the soccer
community works is that once the kids get
older and they get into the PAL or the
travel soccer, they practice after school
in the spring and the fall and because
they're all in after school activities
the practices don't normally start until
5 or 6:00 in the evening and they go
until 8 or 9 at night in the fall and in
the spring. The games are all played on
the weekend in the fall and the spring so
we're not talking about weekend use. The
soccer club's been severely hampered for
the past several years because there was
difficulty with the old lights and they
eventually had to be removed for safety
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reasons. They've been struggling with
portables since that time.
The Town of Southold stepped up and
offered $100,000.00 of their recreational
funds to help fund a program and the
voters of the Park District have recently
approved an appropriation for the balance
of it. The lights are really critical
for the continuation of that program and
to the youths that participate, primarily
Mattituck, Laurel, Cutchogue and
Southold, some kids even from Greenport.
The plan also is designed to help
resurrect the woman's and girl's softball
program as well which for many, many
years is extremely active and again due
to the restriction on the lights has
fallen off, but I see a lot more young
gals starting to come up through the 8,9,
and 10-year-olds in baseball leagues and
so we hope that that will also help
facilitate that program.
There were originally eight very
large LILCO poles that supported huge
lighting stanchions. They didn't have
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screening, they were inefficient. They
shown so that if you drove along the Main
Road you could see them, they were hard
to miss. One fell and the rest were
removed. They're being proposed to be
replaced right now with five poles. Two
are 80 feet tall and three are 70 feet
tall. The eventual plan is to add two
more poles around the home plate area so
that baseball games could actually be
conducted there at some point. They are
not in the plan now for budgetary
reasons.
Mr. Ambrosio can give you a better
explanation of how they're constructed
and why they are constructed in a way to
withstand windstorm and other concerns
about falling. He can also address light
spillage and those types of questions.
The project is proposing Must Go Green,
which is the latest technology and it
does bring sports lighting into the dark
skies parameters. One thing that we are
concerned about is light spill and I
think that's been contained as well as it
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
is possible. It is probably volumes less
than the spill that has been experienced
with the prior lighting.
The Planning Board did express
concern about the light spillage onto the
adjoining home to the north. The map
that we're circulating here today and the
information we've given to the Planning
Board indicates that the light that would
intrude at the home site itself is
negligible. There will be some light
spill in the rear yard of that property
immediately adjacent to the ball fields,
probably 10 times less than it has been
in the past and, again, once those two
other poles go up at home plate the light
that is creating that spill can be
repositioned in order to even further
reduce that spill.
I do want to mention that the reason
we're in front of the Planning Board for
site plan approval is because the
Building Department determined that there
was a change in use or change in
intensity of use and that is why you have
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ZBA Town of $outhold - May 29, 2008
to go for site plan. The change of use
there is no change of use, the usage has
continued for many, many years and the
only change for the intensity of use for
this proposal is not on that north end
where the home is located, it's actually
because the two southern poles will now
have light facing southward onto the
soccer fields to the south. So the only
change in intensification is really
southward and there are no homes that are
affected.
The one home to the north that will
see spill in the backyard, some minimal
spill, is really going to see an
improvement over what was the in the
past.
I'd also like to mention that
Section 283 in the Town Law does
specifically say that one of the primary
purposes of zoning is to facilitate the
adequate provision of parks and, as I
mentioned before, the Mattituck Park
District has taken its role very
seriously in providing adequate
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
facilities to enable the use of this
community to participate.
I'd like to, first of all, ask if
you have any questions or maybe have Mr.
Ambrosio address you to see if you -- if
there are any technical considerations
that you might like him to speak to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
ask, are you addressing the Heather
Lanzer memo that we received yesterday?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. The two things
that she mentioned, one was the light
spillage onto the property to the north,
which I just addressed, and the second is
what she called the integrity of the
poles and that's what Mr. Ambriosio, I
mentioned, will discuss.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He'll discuss.
MS. WICKHAM: Which is how are they
going to stand up?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great.
MS. WICKHAM: You want to address
that right now?
MR. AMBROSIO: Sure. Hello, I'm Ray
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state
your name for the record.
MR. AMBROSIO: -- Ambrosio.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sorry.
MR. AMBROSIO: Ray Ambrosio with
Ward Associates.
The integrity of the poles, the
poles are designed to withstand a wind
load of 120 miles an hour which surpasses
the requirement of the wind loads for
this geographic area and also the light
fixtures themselves are designed to
withstand 150 miles per hour. The
foundations of the poles are concrete and
they're buried into the ground 16 feet
and they extend 10 feet above the ground.
The pole actually slides over the top of
the concrete base.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How does this
compare to something this Board is very
aware of and that's monopoles in general,
if they were to snap, Mr. Ambrosio, how
would they snap? Would they lay over,
would they snap in half, what would
happen?
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MR. AMBROSIO: It's difficult for me
to predict. I would imagine that tests
and things have probably been done on it,
but the pole is very substantial. As I
stated, it has a concrete -- basically
the base of the pole is filled with
concrete because the concrete --
MEMBER OLIVA: Have they been tested
in hurricane prone areas?
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes, this is -- it's
designed for this to withstand the wind
loads of this area.
MEMBER OLIVA: There weren't any
down in New Orleans, were there?
MR. AMBROSIO: I can't speak to
that, but I imagine there's regulations
or standards that are put up with the
different wind loads for different areas.
We're actually at a
and --
MEMBER OLIVA:
fairly high wind area
You're telling me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She lives in
Orient.
MR. AMBROSIO: Okay. That's
certainly taken into consideration.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: With regard to
light trespass, what's the foot candle
that will actually be in the rear yard of
the property to the north?
MR. AMBROSIO: We have some diagrams
and things that predict the light levels
that will be out there. It drops off
rather quickly in the -- right at the
property line where it's probably at
around 10 foot candles, that's the
maximum. Like I said, it drops off
rather quickly at the center of the
property to probably more like around 2
or 3 foot candles.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reduce that?
Is there any way to
MR. A/MBROSIO: The light fixtures
are pretty well shielded, as Ms. Wickham
mentioned. Some of the future design
will have extra light poles around the
back side around home plate of the field
and that -- because the -- to achieve the
uniformity of the field and to bring the
light levels up, some of the light poles
that are actually further away from the
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property line projecting light towards
the property line are adjusted to bring
the light levels to around 30 foot
candles on the field and that's where the
-- those contribute a little bit more to
the light that spills onto the property
and once the other poles are installed
those lights can be readjusted and
reaimed to bring light levels down
because the contribution from the future
poles, obviously, is used to make the
field more uniform.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What kind of
shields are you using on the poles?
MR. AMBROSIO: The shielding on the
light fixtures is basically a hood over
the top of the light fixture and also
inside the fixture there's reflectors and
things that are designed and actually
aimed to project light down onto the
field. It's a pretty efficient light
system, which indicates that most of the
light is focused down onto the field.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What would you say
the degree is, the angle on the shield?
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MR. AMBROSIO: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: What angle is the
light spill?
MR. AMBROSIO:
The light fixture
It's hard to say.
is basically a hood
that comes over. Off the top of my head,
I'd say 50 or 60 percent of the light
fixture and the light fixture is already
aimed down. $o it's a pretty substantial
hood that's over the top of the fixture.
MS. WICKHAM: You, excuse me, I
think in your package you got page E4 of
the plans and that has an illustration of
the assembly and it also includes the
huge pier that is both below and above
grade to stabilize the poles.
Do you have E47
MEMBER WEISMAN: I do,
the section.
the
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes,
illustration of the
yes. That's
section 2 has
light fixtures.
It shows the pole and the type of light
fixture that's used. You can see the
hood that's installed on the front of
that light fixture.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: What we're trying
to -- well, obviously, the higher up a
pole is clearly the more potential for
ambient light and for spill and for
illuminating the sky and some glare on
the road and all of that. Obviously,
what we're concerned about is simply any
possible way to mitigate impacts beyond
what is absolutely essential for you to
have what would be considered the least
illumination that would be functionally
appropriate there.
MR. AMBROSIO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So do you feel what
you are proposing here is, for this
phase, essential? Can it be reduced? Is
this optimal or --
MR. AMBROSIO: Yeah, as a lighting
designer and electrical engineer, I'm
very sensitive to those issues, too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. AMBROSIO: Any project that I do
I pay attention to those things and I
feel that the system that we're proposing
is very efficient, is very -- is optimal
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for lighting the fields that we're
lighting.
There are a lot of characteristics
that go into the design of lighting
fields and things. The uniformity is one
of the main characteristics. The light
level, there are certain light levels for
recreation, generally around 30 foot
candles or so. That's one of the big
considerations for those light levels is
the safety of the players to be able to
see other players, see the ball, see the
things on the field. So, yes, I think
it's an optimal system. Certainly the
fixtures can be reaimed to change or
minimize more the light spill that's on
the neighboring property, but that would
decrease the quality of the lighting
that's on the field. We'd be increasing
hot spots on the -- brightness on certain
areas of the field and creating darker
spots on the field as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not a good
idea.
MR. AMBROSIO: But I'm comfortable
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as with the system that I think it is
designed optimally. It's very efficient,
which again indicates most of the light
is on the field.
MEMBER WEISMAN: When phase 2, I
mean, we're talking about two phases and
you indicated that it would be possible
to reaim some of this lighting to create
a consistent illumination once the other
two poles are in place.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that will
improve spill in general, I would
presume, at least onto the adjacent
property.
MR. AMBROSIO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because you'll be
onto the field, I take
putting more of it
it.
MR. AMBROSIO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is the time
frame you anticipate, at which point, I
presume you'll be back before us for
height variances for those poles?
MR. AMBRO$IO: Yes and just to
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correct one thing, there are two poles in
the -- there are actually three poles in
the future phase. The two poles are
behind home plate and those would be the
closest to the north property line. One
other pole, off the top of my head, is in
the area of pole C1, but, yes, it would
basically allow them to focus the
lighting more on the field. It gives
them more fixtures to be able to create a
uniform surface with the light levels
that we need, but I can't speak to the --
when that's going to happen, how far in
the future that's going to be done.
There are -- let me add that there
are provisions already in this phase,
spare conduits, spare capacity on the
electrical system and things like that to
-- for the future lights.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And are these poles
that you're proposing the minimum height
necessary, from your perspective as a
lighting designer, in order to
functionally illuminate the fields?
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MR. AMBROSIO:
and just to answer
question before is
Yes. The pole light
the part of your
that the pole height
basically will be about in the same area
of about -- the future pole heights will
be about the same --
MEMBER WEISMAN: 70 or 80.
MR. AMBROSIO: -- general area of
the poles that are being proposed in this
phase, but -- and I forgot your question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What would the
consequences be if the poles wound up 60
feet high as opposed to 70 and 80?
MR. AMBROSIO: Especially with
baseball, the pole height is pretty
critical for the quality of play and
safety of players and things. The pole
height needs to be fairly high just
because you can't have the pole -- hit
balls and balls that travel up into the
air you don't want them going beyond the
projected light and it'll be in darkness
then the ball is lost, but the pole
height I think is sufficient and it's
minimal for what we're -- for the purpose
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of the field.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
my questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Okay, I'm done with
Yeah, well having
installed the lights at Greenport and
putting those piers in, I can understand
they're not going anywhere at all. I
don't care how much wind there is.
18 inches in diameter at the bottom
seem a little small, but is that a
mistake or --
MR. AMBROSIO: I believe the
diameter is 30 inches on the foundation.
Before I misspeak, let me make sure.
Yeah, the diameter of the foundation is
30 inches.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, cause I'm
looking at the reasons for the variance.
It says maximum diameter of the poles at
the base is 18 inches.
MR. AMBROSIO: Now, 30 inches is the
below grade foundation and the -- that
may be the diameter of the pole above.
The maximum diameter of the pole.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not that -- it
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really doesn't make that big of a
difference. I probably won't mention
that anyway --
MR. AMBROSIO: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- but it just
seems to me like 18 inches is pretty
small.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yeah, but I --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Considering that --
those are Musko poles, too.
MR. AMBROSIO: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, they're
substantial. You can't put your arms
around the base at the bottom.
I guess if you could just explain to
me the numbers on here.
MR. AMBROSIO: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just so I get an
idea.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes. You're speaking
of the illumination numbers.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The illumination
summary.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right near home
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plate, right in front of home plate
there's a 1. What does that 1 mean?
MR. AMBROSIO: That means the light
level at that point is one foot candle,
which is --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. AMBROSIO: -- rather -- it's not
suitable for baseball play.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. AMBROSIO:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
standard there?
MR. AMBROSIO:
Right.
But that --
What would be the
It depends on the
level of competition that's played on
there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay, well
we're talking about 18-year-olds.
MR. AMBROSIO: Generally, recreation
is normally 50 foot candles at --
MEMBER DINIZIO: 50.
MR. AMBROSIO: On the infield and 30
on the outfield.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So we should see
what at home plate?
MR. AMBROSIO: 50 generally.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: 50 okay.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I don't see
that anywhere on here.
MR. AMBROSIO: No and the intent of
this design is not for baseball play,
it's for soccer play and recreationally -
- and the baseball will be played in the
future under the lights.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
mean that's why I was
question. Now, where
Okay. Okay, so I
asking that
is the house that's
nearest to here that there will be
overflow?
MR. AMBROSIO: The house I believe,
the closest house is the structure that's
shown with the X
left hand corner,
the property.
in the box on the upper
the northwest corner of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Outside the
perimeter.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so there
MR. AMBROSIO: It's very low, .05.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: .10, .1, is that
right on the corner closest to the field?
MR. AMBROSIO: I believe that's .1.
MEMBER DINIZIO: .1.
MR. AMBROSIO: Which is off the --
that would be the southeast corner of the
building. Now, I'd also like to mention
that this -- the photometric analysis
done here assumes the flat surface with
no obstruction. I believe that house is
pretty much surrounded with trees.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. AMBROSIO: And none of that is
taken into consideration, so the light
levels would be much, much lower. Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, no I'm trying
to get an idea of -- I'm trying to set a
standard here. I'm trying to see if you
can tell me, at some point in time, you
know, what's the ambient light, you know,
at 6:00 during the day? Is it -- how
many foot candles is that?
MR. AMBROSIO: Yeah, I couldn't say
off the top of my head. Interior
lighting just in this area -- in this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
room is probably around 35 foot candles.
MEMBER DINIZIO: This is what we
would see on that field.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right now.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes, in the center of
that field, correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: At the corner of
that house we would see approximately
one-tenth of that
MR. AMBROSIO:
right.
-- no less than that.
No, less than that,
MEMBER DINIZIO: Much less than
that, I mean we're talking one -- we're
talking a lot less.
MR. AMBROSIO: One-tenth. You
probably need a flashlight around the
house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I think
that's what I'm getting to.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah there will be
spillover, but the spillover is minimal
when compared to daylight or such as
that. Right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes, by far.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and I
understand that basically you focus the
light on the field by moving the lights,
bolts and stuff and moving them properly
and it's not really the shield that
really gives you much, it's how you focus
those lights.
MR. AMBROSIO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm wondering why -
it doesn't really make a difference.
You chose your locations because you
wanted to have certain light on this
field for soccer and the baseball later
on is -- they don't play baseball there
now or do they? I mean, is it a little
league field or anything like that?
MS. WICKHAM: I think they may play
little league during the daylight hours.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, so --
MS. WICKHAM: They haven't -- I
think Gerry would probably know better.
I don't think they've had a regular
baseball league there for some time.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, no soft --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that was a
hardball basic -- it's really a stadium
type atmosphere, enclosed atmosphere. We
haven't had any hardball there for about
three or four years. I should point out
to everybody present that I am no longer
a con~nissioner of the Mattituck Park
District and that's why I didn't recuse
myself.
MR. AMBROSIO:
little about that.
I'd like to speak a
The poles, the
location of the poles are optimally
placed for the use for baseball.
Baseball is a little more critical than
soccer. Obviously, again, it depends on
the level of play, this being recreation
it's not as critical as say a Division II
or Division I school or professional, but
the poles are placed and the future
poles, especially like the A-poles that
are going to be behind home plate have to
be placed so that no glare is in the
pitcher's eyes or any of the player's
eyes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me ask you this
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MR. AMBROSIO: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You would gain a
better lighting the higher you go?
MR. AMBROSIO: Higher --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm talking to a
point, I'm not talking thousands of feet.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yeah, you're thinking
higher --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, certainly if
you have one at 60 feet that light would
have to be at a different angle than one
at --
MR. AMBROSIO: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- 80 feet.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes, you're talking
about the height, actual physical height
of the fixtures.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, the actual
physical height.
MR. AMBROSIO: Yes, definitely.
When they're lower there's going to be --
there's more chance and as the person,
the player follows the path of the ball
and things like that it becomes more of a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
safety issue. You'd be looking directly
into the lights.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. AMBROSIO: And as the light pole
fixtures come down keep in mind the angle
of the light is -- the projection of the
light is different so it flattens out and
the quality of the light is much less.
There'll be more shadows, more -- you'd
be looking directly into the lights.
It's more susceptible, you wouldn't be --
the light angle changes dramatically.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
why you don't have 20
there.
That's the reason
18-foot poles
MR. AMBROSIO: Right, exactly.
a very difficult as the pole heights
down the number of poles increases
dramatically.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Okay,
that's all I have.
MEMBER OLIVA: I think everything
has been explained.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. AMBROSIO: You're welcome.
It's
come
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MS. WICKHAM: There's just one
factor that I didn't explicitly state and
that is that we are faced with physical
location of the ball field very close to
the north line. There's really no way to
move that away and that's the reason
there is that proximity of that ball
field and that first base line to the
neighboring property that we are
encountering these numbers on that map
and that's been like that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
one advantage to that, Ms.
for years.
The advantage,
Wickham, is
the fact that the adjacent property to
the north is park and playground area.
MS. WICKHAM: The northeastern side
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, there's
21 acres of park and playground area to
that subdivision of which every one of
those houses front on Aldrich Lane,
including this house where the major
spillage would be.
MS. WICKHAM: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Meaning the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
first house. The advantage of having
that park and playground area is there
are no houses down adjacent to that area.
MS. WICF/{AM: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted
to add that.
Is there anybody in the audience
would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving decision
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
*****************************************
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6138 - Paul and
Cheryl Ragusa
BOARD ASST.: State your name.
MR. TALGAT: Ural Talgat, architect,
landscape architect.
I have another drawing here, which
is a site section to the property from
the beach up to the bluff and past the
pool. I'd like to submit that to the
Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: Would you be
get
able to
us probably two more tomorrow, if you
can?
MR. TALGAT: Yes. Yes, I will.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much,
cause we have a member absent and we also
have one for the permanent file.
MR. TALGAT: Okay, two more copies.
BOARD ASST.: Two more. Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Who's absent?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Simon.
MRS. MOORE:
thank you.
Well, last
Yes, Mr. Simon. Yes,
time we were together and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
we're reconvening this application for a
pool and side yard. At the time, we were
discussing alternative plans and sometime
ago we provided a map that was dated
April -- is this the last one?
MR. TALGAT: No, no.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, where is the
date? Oh, May 2nd down at the bottom,
May 2, 2008 and that proposal had us
incorporating some of the elements that
we talked about at the last meeting.
We kept the pool 15 feet from the
side property line. The pool was pushed
away from the top of the bank and is in
line with the foundation of the house.
By pushing the pool back we limited the
steps that go down and give access around
the garage to the minimal of 5 feet.
We've eliminated -- the pool is 15 feet
from the foundation of the house.
MR. TALGAT: 15 feet 9 inches.
MRS. MOORE: 9 inches, pardon me.
We've eliminated patio around the pool.
We limited it only to the pool, which
last time we were here Joe Fischetti
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
testified that the weight of water is
less than the weight of soil, so
therefore, issues of weight I think were
addressed last time. We have the pool
enclosed --
MR. TALGAT:
MRS. MOORE:
Shown on this drawing.
Okay, we have to have,
obviously, we have to have the property
fenced in in order to -- for State
Building Code. We have the evergreen
plantings along the common property line
on the northeast side and we have
additional evergreens around the pool
equipment, which is on the side of the
garage.
Did I cover everything?
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You forgot one
thing.
MRS. MOORE: What?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The pool
equipment in a soundproof --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry, that was
already given, yes. We are enclosing the
equipment in a soundproof structure, be
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
it wood or whatever you guys prefer with
landscaping around it.
MR. TALGAT: Also there's
landscaping surrounding it.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, so a combination
of an enclosure and screening.
MR. TALGAT: And also the screenings
along the property line would help
diffuse the sound, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Has your
neighbor seen this plan?
MR. TALGAT: I don't know.
BOARD ASST.: Yes, Mr. Butterfield
was interested in having updates to the
file, so we would need a third plan so
that Mr. Butterfield can be given a copy
of it also.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
Is he here?
He may be on his way,
but he did express an
last hearing.
MRS. MOORE:
certainly share
objection.
know if --
interest at the
Okay, we would
it with him.
I'd have to look,
We have no
I don't
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MR. TALGAT: I just assumed, maybe
incorrectly, that since we submitted it
to the ZBA, it was on your file that he -
- if he had access --
BOARD ASST.: We (inaudible). Yeah,
that other map, yes, but this one that
you're handing in now --
MR. TALGAT: The site section.
BOARD ASST.: The site section.
MR. TALGAT: No, I have not.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the cross-section.
BOARD ASST.: We would need a third
set for that, please.
MR. TALGAT: I just -- it's the
first time anyone has seen it besides
myself.
BOARD ASST.: That's the plan I'm
talking about. Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Now, the cross-
section is more for your technical
requirement I think from last time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's something I
requested.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, I remember your
question.
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ZBA Town of Southold - MaY 29, 2008
BOARD ASST.: I thought you had
submitted it already, previously.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I don't
have any particular objection to this new
plan or the current plan, the one we
received on May 6.
MRS. MOORE: May 2nd,
received on the 6th, okay.
oh you
drywell?
MRS. MOORE:
house already?
MR. TALGAT:
put a drywell in.
Is there one for the
Yes, we will propose to
It will be on the
landward side of the pool,
water side of the pool.
MRS. MOORE:
MR. TALGAT:
MRS. MOORE:
around --
not on the
By the pool equipment?
Yes, probably.
It will be in the area
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any comment
from the Board?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'd like to
ask a couple of questions.
Drywells, is not located on the new
plan. Are you proposing to incorporate a
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TALGAT: It will be behind the
MR.
pool so that'll be for any kind of
drainage from the pool equipment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. TALGAT: And since all the
rainwater does come on to the surface of
grade that should percolate normally,
naturally into the soil.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Great. Now you're
proposing lawn in place of the patio.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You really are
going to seed that, plant it with grass?
MR. TALGAT: I hope so.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's your
proposal rather than to put down any
permeable or semi-permeable --
MRS. MOORE: I think originally she
preferred patio, I mean, if she had a
choice patio is the preferred material,
but I think we were trying to minimize as
much as possible. So certainly
originally our submission was patio and
to the extent that the Board allows us to
put patio on sand, which would be --
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continue to be pervious --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, do the
lawn.
MS. RAGUSA: Can I ask --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to
come up.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, yes come up for the
MS. RAGUSA: Hi.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your
name.
MS. RAGUSA: Cheryl Ragusa. Even if
we were to do any patio, if it was
allowed, it would just be in the area
between the house and the pool. Not the
area between the pool and the bluff, you
know, just in that piece. I'd rather
just leave more grass anyway. So then
the only place that it might be is just
in that, if it's allowed, is in that part
between the end of the house line and
where the stairs are into the basement,
in that little section there just for
like a table and a barbecue grill type of
thing. That's it.
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MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I do have to
say that particularly given now this site
section you can really understand the
topography and where roll-off would be
(inaudible) retaining wall. If that
could be improved in terms of impact, in
returning to the site I have to say that
it's -- no matter what way you slice it,
it's setting a very difficult precedent
to put any kind of a swimming pool in
such a close proximity to a bluff given
new construction. If a pool had been
there or something like that, that's one
set of circumstances, and while I think
this has the least possible impact and
you've done an excellent job in revamping
this for that very purpose, I will state
for the record my reservations over
setting a precedent of putting a swimming
pool 37 feet away from what is a rather
steep, though very stable, bluff because
we see these all the time, as you well
know. We will be very hard pressed to
justify locating a swimming pool at one
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corner 34-1/2 feet from a bluff of any
kind. So in writing the finding I'm
going to have to think long and hard how
to write this finding given the set of
circumstances.
I reread the transcript. We were
all attempting to collaborate in seeing
whether it was possible to do something,
you know, that looked more feasible.
This certainly is much more feasible than
what was originally proposed. So since -
- I'll just have to grapple with the
balancing test and the LWRP and see what
kind of mitigation we can come up with or
not that would permit this kind of
proposal to take place, but you can
understand the potential precedence of --
and I do also understand that given the
topography you have no other alternative
location.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're either going
to get this pool or you're not going to
be able to build a pool on your property.
MRS. MOORE: Right. I would --
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something that you always point out to
me, which I'm just going to regurgitate,
which is that each application stands on
it's own merit and we did have
significant testimony by Joe Fischetti,
who is here, again if you need -- if you
have to answer -- if he has to answer any
additional questions, but that the bluff
is stable. This is a very stable
property and there -- and you've referred
it out to Soil and Water and there have
been -- really I think we've addressed
all the issues why in this circumstance
and on this property it's permissible
whereas even on the property next door it
may not be. It's very case specific and
I understand, we all understand that when
we come to you for a request for a
variance, particularly with pools in the
side yard, each is, you know, very site
specific case.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh no, well taken.
Point well taken, I don't dispute that.
I'm the one who's always saying it is
(inaudible) --
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MRS. MOORE: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- however, this is
one application which has, you know --
MRS. MOORE: Well, we have given you
enough that you can feel comfortable.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Anybody else?
MRS. MOORE: We have
here, Carnivalie at 130.
Thank you.
a neighbor
BOARD ASST.:
was planning to be here.
probably on his way.
MRS. MOORE: Okay,
this hearing or --
I know Mr. Butterfield
So he's
are we closing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we're
waiting to see if anybody else wants to
speak.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please come up
here.
MRS. MOORE: I'll leave the plan out
on the table for you. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, I just
want to explain to you that we had a one-
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
hour mandated recess and we need to
continue. We will certainly allow them
to address an issue if they come in and
we urge you to stay. We may recess this
for 20 minutes, waiting for them, to go
on to the next hearing when the time
comes.
Can I please have the next agenda
time?
BOARD ASST.: 1:35.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:307
BOARD ASST.: 1:35.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:35, so at
1:35 if they have not arrived we will
then recess it for a short period of
time. Okay? You're certainly welcome to
give us your statement at this time.
We promise not to grill you.
MS. MULLADY: You'll have to forgive
me for reading.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. MULLADY: I timed
No problem.
it. I tried
to make it short and sweet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Give me your
name, please.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MS. MULLADY: You know what, I have
my wrong glasses, can I change them?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What was her name?
BOARD ASST.:
MS. MILADY:
I-L-E-Y, Mullady,
Not yet, she hasn't --
Ottiley Mullady, O-T-T-
M-U-L-L-A-D-Y.
I live at 1400 Hyatt Road. I've
been there full time for 17 years and I
am two houses to the east of the Ragusas.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. RAGUSA: I'm sure that if Cheryl
and Paul had taken the time to better
understand the topography of the area and
experienced some of the rages of Mother
Nature they would never have overburdened
their property and endangered their house
by rebuilding it so close to the bluff.
24 feet and 15 feet are inviting dangers
not only to their own properties, but to
their neighbors downhill. While I'm not
a technical person, I have witnessed
firsthand the destruction of the beach,
the dunes and the bluff following
Hurricane Bob in '91 and the countless
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northeasters that have since followed
every fall and winter.
What the Ragusas' engineer failed to
mention is that the wetlands between
Hyatt Road and Sound Avenue drain through
the bluff and onto the beach. When we
experienced heavy rains the water flows
down these gullies and onto the beach.
It fills up our cesspools and the ground
becomes saturated and even fills up our
wells. You can see in some places even
in the winter that this water is flowing
all year round. It was such a spring 11
years ago when my neighbors lost 6 feet
of their property, which fell from the
top onto the beach below pushing their
staircase into the air. That staircase
has been rebuilt three times, but to no
avail because of the constant change of
water and earth.
The Ragusas are not immune to these
erosive gullies.
pool is proposed.
not about a pool,
They have one where the
This whole issue is
it's about protecting a
sensitive ecosystem that is at the
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constant mercy of the elements. I don't
understand why the Ragusas were allowed
to build so close to the edge. There is
barely enough room between the bluff on
the west side to walk around it. I don't
understand why they further compromise
the property by extending it with a
covered breezeway and a garage when they
already have a two-car garage
preexisting. I will never understand why
they want a pool when the best pool in
the world is right down their back steps.
Their property is compromised. It
is in blatant violation of the Code and I
feel that the Zoning is there for a
reason and that the Code should be
applied equally and fairly to everyone.
You are our trustees and in making your
decision we are relying on your good
judgment and your integrity where good
judgment has not prevailed and we, the
property owners, to both the east and the
west directly involved with the Ragusa
property, beg you to help us protect this
very special place.
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Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I ask, will you
submit a copy of that letter, please, for
the record?
MS. MULLADY: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It will be in the
transcript, but it will be good to have a
copy.
CHAIRFLAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Mr. Butterfield, we realize, may not
have recognized the exact time. There's
no problem, are you ready to present your
side?
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Could we have just a
moment to respond to the issue so it
doesn't --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to go
with all the -- and then you're welcome
to go.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, then respond at
one time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell
you I have to move this hearing along,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
we've spent a lot of time --
MRS. MOORE: Well, then you have to
adjourn it or just postpone it -- just
adjourn it long enough so that we can put
on the record our response.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we will.
We will.
BOARD ASST.: I was wondering if I
could just mention to Mr. Butterfield
that some new information was added to
the record before you arrived. They do
have maps. There's a map up on the
podium there.
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
received?
just
Is that the map I
BOARD ASST.: No, that's a map we
got about a half hour ago.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. You're
talking about the cross-section.
BOARD ASST.:
a plan.
MRS. MOORE:
The cross-section, not
If you'd like, I can
give him my copy for him to look at.
MEMBER OLIVA: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you just
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-- would you put it up there on the
podium and we'll let him -- we'll let
him, while you're discussing that, take
it to his seat and then he can ask
questions regarding that also.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good
afternoon, sir.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Good afternoon,
Mr. Chairman, members of the Board.
Thank you very much for permitting me to
address the issues that are before this
Board and if you recall the last time we
were here, prior to the adjournment, I
had requested an indication that whatever
plans be submitted indicate where the
waste water facilities are located vis a
vie the front yard because, as I
understand it, this Board need not grant
a variance with regard to the 100-foot
setback if there is an alternate area to
locate the pool. Now it was stated at
the hearing by I believe the gentleman
who designed the initial plans that it
couldn't be -- the front yard could not
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be located -- a pool could not be located
in the front yard because the waste
system was located there and you couldn't
drive over it. That was his words.
We went to the Building Department,
and my client will testify to that, to
find out where the waste system is
located. The Building Department said
they had no records of the location of
any waste water system. So then I went
to the Health Department and under the
regulations of FOIL asked if they had any
indication where the waste system is
located and I received back an indication
they have no record and here's their
response and the letter with which it
came to me.
I specifically asked, at the
adjourned date, that the plan indicate
where the waste water system is located
and totally absent from this plan is such
location.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I explain
something to you, Mr. Butterfield? I had
a house that was built in Southold Town
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in 1971. In 1971 the Health Department
did not require sanitary systems to be
placed on the survey. They, however, did
inspect them, alright, and they did have
to pass. So if this house uniquely was
built prior to, I'm assuming it was built
well prior to 1971, that is the reason
why it is not shown on the plans. I'm
just using that as a benchmark --
MR. BUTTERFIELD: No, I understand
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: But in as much as
reference was made to the existing
facilities, I must ask how is that known
if there is no documentation that locates
it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we'll
certainly get -- we'll
from counsel.
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
get a response
Because, as I
understand it, the Board need not address
the variance vis a vie the bluff, if an
alternate location can be provided for.
You don't have to even visit that issue.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: And to that
extent, I think it is the core issue of
this hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: And to that extent
I don't know why and I did ask that it be
placed -- because they had blankly said
we can't use the front yard because of
those facilities and I asked, I forget
what page of my testimony, it was page 40
of the transcript. If they can dismiss
the use of the front yard because of the
waste facility, then why wasn't it put on
the map? And that was requested and I
think that has to be addressed as the
issue as to whether or not this Board has
to address the variance request and it is
omitted. Now, do we go ahead without any
proof?
I have testimony as to where the
waste water pipe is located and it's
located as you're looking at the house on
the far right side of the building.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Standing in
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front of the house?
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Standing in front
of the house on the right hand side my
(inaudible) and at that time there was
that gas vent, which allows for the gases
to escape. So if we're talking about the
right hand side as to where that system
was located, then what then prevents the
left hand side from being utilized to
install a pool.
preference, but
of this Board.
It might not be their
that's not the function
The function of this
Board is to determine whether or not
there is an alternate. Whether or not
they want the pool facing Long Island
Sound, that's not for this Board to grant
predicated on their preference. It's
their duty to show there is no alternate
location and I think before this hearing
can go any further we have to know that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We'll
ask counsel. Counsel could you use the
other podium, please.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I have all my
people --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright,
we'll ask counsel to vacate.
MRS.
There is
March 17,
then
MOORE: Yeah, that's fine.
actually a drawing that is dated
2008. I believe it was
submitted and it's part of your file,
which shows the 16 by 20 pool that may
have been one of our alternatives, but in
the top site plan it shows the sanitary,
where the sanitary is. Ural --
BOARD ASST.:
(inaudible) map?
MRS. MOORE:
Is there a map,
Yeah, it's actually
shown on the site plan that we gave you
if you look at the top drawing, the large
one that I gave you.
BOARD ASST.:
please?
MRS. MOORE:
What's the date on it,
The one that's-- the
big one that is May 2nd, just has the
duplication of what I have on the smaller
version. You can see right at the top it
says existing sanitary system and
sanitary system for pools, with respect
to drainage pools. That's the pool
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reference.
BOARD ASST.: And that's on the site
plan that you gave on May 8tn?
MRS. MOORE: Well, that the May 8 --
yes, that's the May 8.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: That sanitary system
was physically found and identified.
Measured and so on by Mr. Britanny (sic)
during construction, it was verified. So
that is where the sanitary system is and
it's been verified in the field.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
of that? I don't see
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
the top of the page.
Do we have a copy
the page.
it's on -- look at
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
you kind of miss
It's dated May 8 --
Yeah, it's so obvious
it because it's right at
the front -- yeah, the top.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh.
BOARD ASST.: Right there.
MRS. MOORE: So sir --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr.
Butterfield, Mrs. Moore will point that
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out to you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
determined?
MRS. MOORE:
was actually--
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
have any testimony?
Now, how was that
Physical inspection, it
By whom? Do we
MRS. MOORE:
it on -- okay.
MR. TALGAT:
Okay, Ural when you put
The cesspool locations
were given to me in terms of dimensions
by the contractor John Britanny (sic) and
I located that on my drawing. The
drawing is to scale.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Again --
MRS. MOORE: I think I addressed
that issue.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: That would not
follow this location where the pipe
itself is on the far right of the
building exiting the house. How was that
determination made? We have to have
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Use this
podium and address the Board, sir.
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direct testimony because by doing that it
still doesn't exclude the use of the side
yard in the front. There's plenty of
side yard left.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you
referring to between the existing garage
and the --
MR. BUTTERFIELD: No, no. I'm
talking about behind the house or in the
front yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: In the front yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Between the
garage closest to Hyatt Road and the --
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- existing
garage attached to the house.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: A pool could be
put there without interrupting with the
cesspools or alternatively the expense of
changing the location of the cesspools
could be their expense and putting the
expense of the jeopardy to the bluff out
of question and I see no reason why the
financial difficulty that it might result
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in should direct this Board to give them
a variance if, in fact, a pool could be
located in the front yard, which was
granted to I think Ms. Cashey (sic) some
years ago where a variance was given for
the front yard to locate the swimming
pool and to that extent there is an
alternate. It's inconvenient perhaps if
the cesspools are impinged upon, but
nevertheless it is a valid alternative to
what is being proposed today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, duly
noted, sir.
Hello, Mr. Fischetti. How are you,
sir?
MR. FISCHETTI: Joe Fischetti, I'm
the consultant and engineer. It's not as
easy to do those things with sanitary
systems. The Ragusas have their well in
the front of the house. If we move it
further away, we have more problems to
keep the separation distances between
wells and sanitaries.
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me. Front, you
mean north side or south side of the
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house?
MR. FISCHETTI: What I say -- yeah,
I always have that problem with clients.
Front is, to me, where the road is. To
me the front of the house is the road. I
don't care if they're looking at the --
BOARD ASST.: Okay, the well is on
the road side.
MR. FISCHETTI: The well is on the
road side and I don't know the exact
location, but again, separation between
wells and sanitaries are 100 feet. This
is probably closer than that right now
and moving it any closer until I do a
complete analysis of that I don't think
it's really feasible to make those quick
analyses. You also have wells, again, on
either side of the property that may
affect. So just moving these is not such
an easy thing to do and I don't think it
can be done.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: If -- also, with
continuing with some of the comments he
made, the pool location -- obviously the
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sanitary system is in the front yard and
we have the setbacks that are showing
right there. You can't put the pool --
to relocate a pool and putting it in the
front yard it would have to meet
principle setback structures. So without
moving the sanitary you'd have to put the
pool almost on top of the road and you
would be not -- you would not be in
conformity with the front yard setbacks
that are required for a pool in the front
yard. Let alone the fact that the owner
applicant has no intention of putting a
pool in the front yard right on the
street. So that really is not a
practical alternative.
You can see from the site plan there
is an existing garage, there is an
existing driveway that is already
established. The testimony by Ms.
Mullady she is two houses -- she is not
an adjacent property owner. She is two
houses to the east. Her topography and
bluff topography is very different from
the Ragusa property. We have not
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analyzed her own personal situation, but
she described is not consistent with the
testimony that you've already heard with
respect to the stability of the bluff on
the Ragusa property.
The house predates the zoning. It
was renovated, if you recall. The Board
reviewed the expansion of the second
floor, but all in kind and place in the
sense it was all over top of the existing
foundation. So the house has been there
much longer than, well not some of you,
but some of us have been around.
So I'd like to have Joe just deal
with one of the issues that she raised
with respect to drainage. I think when
we were hearing your testimony she talked
about the ground -- the water flow and
how it leads to the bluff.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah. Just quickly,
that's -- that bluff is still stable.
There are drainage areas to the -- that
do percolate through the bluff. It's
been happening. It happens for a very
long time. I do not see from my
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evaluation of that bluff that it's
causing any erosion to that bluff. It
does happen any construction to the -- on
the -- at the top of the bluff is not
affecting -- will not be affected by the
little erosion -- by the little
percolations through the bluff due to the
drainage.
So no construction at the top of the
bluff will be affected by any of that
minor drainage that comes
bluff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
through that
Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: My Client would
like to testify, if I may.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good
afternoon. Just state your name for the
record.
MS. CARNAVALIE: Yes, I'm Julie
Carnavalie.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to
move the mike a little bit closer.
MS. CARNAVALIE: Julie Carnavalie, I
live at the adjacent property, 1500 Hyatt
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Road. I brought some pictures with me
that I think the photos do speak 1000
words and I'd like to explain each one to
you.
This one that Ken will actually
bring up to you is a view from the second
floor of our house showing the Ragusa
property how close it is to the bluff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mr.
Butterfield.
MS. CARNAVALIE: And this next one
actually shows the bales of hay and you
could see the proximity from the house to
the bluff. It's a view from our property
of theirs. Our only concern right now is
saving this bluff. Two doors away from
us, the Lesters, lost their bluff when
they had put a'drywell at the top of
their bluff. They had a drywell that
filled and exploded and they lost their
bluff and they've tried to rebuild it
with no success because every time we get
a storm or heavy rain they lose their
bluff again. So you can see with this
it's marked Lester bluff that they've
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lost their staircase I think three our
four times so far.
We do have street --
MEMBER OLIVA: Which one is this?
MS. CARNAVALIE: That's the Lester
bluff, which is two doors away from us.
It's next door to Mrs. Mullady. So she
definitely does have a very big concern
even though she's not adjacent to the
Ragusa's property.
BOARD ASST.: No, I have to mark
them, they're getting out of order.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're not
out of order, they're both the same. One
is one side and one is --
BOARD ASST.: It helps if I mark the
exhibits as they're submitted.
MEMBER WEISMAN: While they're
sorting out these numbers, may I ask
you're the neighbor to the east or west?
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Immediately east.
MS. CARNAVALIE: Immediately east
adjacent to the Ragusas' property. The
photos that you're looking at when I
consider and tell you that it's the
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Ragusas' property is from my adjacent
side yard that I photographed from my
side yard of their property.
We do not want to see people not
have a pool if that's what they want,
we're only trying to save the bluff,
which Hyatt Road is a very special place.
We're just adjacent to the Horton
Lighthouse and the bluffs are very secure
right now although we do have streams
that run from the road behind us, which I
can never remember the name of that road,
Anderson. From Anderson Road run across
to the Mullady property and down our
steps that and also the Ragusa steps. I
do believe there's water that's running
down their steps from the stream. From
the underground streams, so in spring --
especially this spring we had a lot of
heavy rain, but a few years ago we had a
spring where there was nothing but rain
every March and April we had rain --
heavy rains and we lost two feet of our
bluff from the rain.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Would you tell the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Board about the two boulders that are
approximately 25 feet from beach level?
MS. CARNAVALIE: Yes. From the
heavy rains we lost -- and we had a
nor'easter come through with high winds -
- we lost boulders that were in our bluff
and actually to Mulladys' bluff also.
There were boulders that had to be 20
feet in height and circumference. 20
feet in circumference and they were
lodged into our bluff for so many years,
they came tumbling down onto the beach.
Now what will happen with a pool, anyone
can say anything they want, I'm not an
engineer, but I do have a pool where I
live in Centerport as a full time
resident and I know that we have to
backwash our pool, our filter has to be
backwashed constantly. Where will this
water run off to? If it runs off to the
front of their property it will run down
our property and onto the Mulladys'
property, which happened prior to the
Ragusas living in this house. Another
couple had bought it and they torn down
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
all the trees. So when the trees came
down all the water flowed down to our
property and to Mrs. Mullady's property,
which she has a bit of a swamp in the
beginning -- in the front of her property
and that water is constantly running down
the steps of the bluff.
I'm asking you to please protect our
bluff. It's not just -- we're protecting
our investment, we're protecting the
ecology of the bluff, which we've tried
very hard to keep people from pruning,
taking trees down. We've only pruned our
trees. Last night I heard saws going at
7:00 at night and there was something
being -- a tree was being removed close
to the bluff at the Ragusa's house. It
just can't, it can't continue. We're not
in New York City. We're in Southold
where we have to really conserve what
we're doing to save our bluff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. CARNAVALIE: Thank you for
listening, but I also wanted one other
thing to be noted. That Mrs. Mary Butts,
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Ms. Mary Butts who lives on Hyatt Road
was just granted last year a variance to
have a pool, a lap pool put in her front
yard. We're not asking the Ragusas never
to have a pool. If they can manage to
put it in their front yard, we're very
happy to know that they are happy. If a
cesspool is all that needs to be moved
around, a cesspool -- I know the cost of
cesspools could be no more than
$15,000.00. What will the affect of the
bluff -- losing our bluff, what will that
cost all of us? Our investment in our
homes or will our homes fall off the
bluff?
Their house is actually only 21 feet
from the bluff. If they lose that bluff
our house is about 25 feet from the
bluff, we will all -- if we don't lose
our house we will have to invest in
movers coming and pour new foundation
forward to the street and move our houses
back from the bluff. I've seen it
happen. I've seen it happened in
Nissequogue where homes were moved off
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their foundation because the bluffs have
gone. We don't want to see that happen.
We'll be happy to have them have a pool
wherever they want it, but not
jeopardizing our bluffs.
that.
Please consider
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. CARNAVALIE: Thank you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: I'd like to sum up
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if I may. The cesspool situation, again,
when you consider the amount that's been
invested in this house, the Ragusa house,
is small in comparison to the jeopardy
that it poses -- the pool poses to the
bluff. I must say this Town, I'm sure,
did a lot of study as to the protection
of the bluff and we had theories about
compaction because if the pool were less
than the pressure on the bluff. I'm sure
there were engineers that were employed
by the Town before they made the decision
to protect the bluff. And it reoccurs in
various section of the Code, not only in
zoning, but in various aspects of
utilization of that area of that area and
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it seems to me that before this Board
starts to issue variances where this
would be the predicate for more of it
because when the Cashey (sic) variance
was denied they were asking for 75 feet
from the bluff and now this is the first
time that we're talking about 30-40 feet,
maybe 60 feet, I don't know. It's hard
to read the plans in terms of how they
measured to the bluff, but nevertheless
this is a radical departure from the
position that this Board took seven years
ago. With the only rationale that it's
better than the other plans.
Well, is that a rationale to grant
the variance that the lesser of the evils
is better than no evil at all and that's
what you're considering where I think the
burden is on them to show that they
cannot situate the pool in the front
yard? It might be inconvenient, it might
be a little costly, but that's their
problem. It's not the problem of the
Town and until that ordinance is amended
by the Board I don't think tampering with
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what this Town has done a lot to try to
protect is the right direction for the
Board, especially since precedent doesn't
allow for it.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Ms. Moore, any summation?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, well I think it's
-- the attorney seems to somewhat ignore
the point that we keep making with
respect to the sanitary. It is in place,
I think you understand the sanitary
regulations in Suffolk County and the
limitations on relocating sanitary
systems. We've already informed you of
the constraints here with respect to well
to sanitary locations. Also, the fact
that there are exiting structures all on
the easterly portion of the front yard
and what is left of the front yard that
is not impacted by the sanitary system,
which cannot be relocated, is an area
that would necessitate a variance
nonetheless because it would not conform
to principle setback structures of a pool
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in a front yard. It would encroach in
the 50-foot front yard setback. Let
alone just aesthetically placing a pool
on top of Hyatt Road. It just -- I don't
know that any of the other neighbors
would be pleased with that alternative
and certainly the applicant is not.
With respect to the stability of
this property, I want Joe to please
emphasize the conditions of this
property. The testimony has been
primarily with respect to the adjacent
owner whose home is actually closer to
the top of the bluff than the Ragusa
property, the house and the proposed
pool, and the Mullady property which is
two houses away further to the east and
that area has been impacted by the bluff
stability for reasons of the existing
conditions of that area.
So, Joe, if you --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before Mr.
Fischetti goes.
MRS. MOORE: Yes?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I need
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you to do and I'm bringing this issue up
right now so I don't forget about it --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is to
address by letter to us the inconsistency
report of Mark Terry the Principle
Planner and LWR? coordinator dated March
27, 2008.
MRS. MOORE: I don't believe I have
it.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, well it was
faxed to you a few months ago and --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, months ago. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't want
you to do it today, I want you to do it
in writing.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
provide it in writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I would
like you to submit that to counsel, too,
please, if you would.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And counsel
can react to that or not react to that
based upon the situation. Okay?
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I'll certainly
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MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll put some
time limits on the period of time we need
you to circulate this document, your
document Mrs. Moore.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I'd --
excuse me, Joe, for doing that, but I
just wanted to --
MRS. MOORE: No, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. FISCHETTI: Just a quick
summation. Protection of the bluff is
very important and the bluff in this area
is very irregular. The neighbors to the
east and the west have different
stability issues. This particular
property and we must understand that
bluff stability does not relate to
construction at the top of the slope at
the top of the bluff and we've talked
about that, unless erosion or run-off is
actually happening at the top of the
slope causing erosion that would make the
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slope stability in (inaudible). We've
taken that issue here, we've moved all
the run-off towards -- away from the
bluff. So the stability of the bluff
here is not related to the construction
at the top which we talked about. This
particular property is very, very stable.
I think my analysis in looking at the
angle of repose you would have to lose
probably 75 feet of the toe of the bluff
before you'd ever get to the point where
this bluff would affect the house, at
this point in time.
So we're looking at red herrings
here about this swimming pool affecting
all the neighbors and the problem with
the bluffs. We all want to protect the
bluff, but a swimming pool of this size
and constructed in this way with the
backwash filtering going into drywells,
which would not be going over the bluff
and which would not be running anywhere,
would not be having any adverse affect on
this bluff. I'm just trying to sum up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, I have a
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question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Joe, testimony has
been given by neighbors that the
viability of drywells in this vicinity is
not particularly something you can count
on. In other words, drywells have blown
out overfilled with underwater flow and
since we've already discussed the fact
that a drywell for pool backwash would
have to be installed on this property and
Ural indicated where you propose to
locate it, tell us how you feel about the
usefulness or the functionality of the
drywell --
MR. FISCHETTI: I'm not sure what
that answer -- what that question is. In
other words, what had happened there when
they say blown out? I don't know what
that means, but, basically, we're talking
about a drywell, and here, not a lot of
water. We're not talking about the same
drywells that would -- a backwash doesn't
use that much water. You have a catch
base, a leaching pool, which is maybe 6-
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foot diameter. Around that pool has
gravel and it's basically seeps into the
ground. Now if there's clay or other
impervious soils in there when you dig
the drywell, you leave it there,
eventually it will -- the dry well, if
it's used specifically for the backwash
we'd have to look at the permeability,
but blowing out, I don't know what that
means. I'd have to look at that question
to see what they meant by that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Failing.
MR. FISCHETTI: Well they fail --
they may fail for a number of reasons.
If they're failing because there isn't
permeability in the soil, you don't dig a
drywell in clay and not allow for that.
MEMBER OLIVA: Joe --
MR. FISCHETTI: I can't answer that.
Were there test holes done somewhere?
MEMBER OLIVA:
test holes done?
it on the survey.
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah, were there any
I don't remember seeing
Well, if I could just
address the issue of the drywell, we --
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in the Santiago pool that we had in
Nassau Point, he introduced to the Board
a new drywell for pools that requires no
backwash. We could -- I just asked Ural
if that would be possible. It's a little
more expensive, but it certainly works
and it's become a common place condition
on the south side with respect to pools
where the issue of containment --
MR. FISCHETTI: So that if there
isn't permeability to design a drywell,
then the clients will use a pool that
doesn't require backwash and will
eliminate that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. There
were no test holes to your knowledge?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I don't know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, because the
sanitary is existing, it was the same
number of bedrooms under the existing
system. It's very possible that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the Health
Department didn't require you to increase
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the --
MRS. MOORE: No, but let me look
very quickly. I have a survey, an
original survey. I don't recall seeing a
test hole.
MEMBER OLIVA: I don't remember
either.
MRS. MOORE: No, chances are that
there wasn't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we have a
copy of that original survey?
MRS. MOORE: I think you do, I think
in your file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it should be.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have a
final survey of the house as it presently
exists?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the as-built? I'm
sure they have one during construction, I
don't now that I have it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you have
it, if you can get it for us, we'd
appreciate it.
MRS. MOORE: I can get that for you.
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Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I do want to say
one thing to everyone who's testified
here, which is that whether or not there
is an alternative location for this pool,
granting a variance for this pool which
is about a 60 to 70 percent variance,
which is quite substantial, is not based
upon having an alternative location. It
can be granted or denied whether there is
an alternative location or not.
Assuming there was no alternative
location, we should not assume that a
pool will happen anywhere on this
property. In other words, this is a
proposal for a location specific to the
bluff. It stands on its merits. If it's
denied and the applicants want to come
back with an alternative location, then -
and it will require a variance, if it
requires a variance, we'll consider that
at that time. So the argument about an
alternative location is relevant in most
cases, but in this case I just want to
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let those folks who've testified know
that the pool need not be granted simply
because there may not be another place
for them to put it that's cost effective
or
convenient.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you. So
MRS. MOORE: So I will get for you,
just to clarify, LWR? response and as-
built survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You'll submit
it to us and to counsel, please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, counsel
be
MRS. MOORE: You know what, it might
-- I don't know if I have your
address. Can I give you two and have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He'll give you
a card.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, thank you. Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what we're
looking for is basically within 10
business days of today to receive that
from you, Mrs. Moore.
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MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, hold on one
second, we have one other request here.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just so that we
have conclusive final information, in no
way do I mean to discredit the accuracy
of Mr. Britanny's (sic) location of the
septic system or Mr. Talgat's location of
it on the site plan, the absolute
assurance of it's location would best be
served by having it actually located by a
land surveyor, a licensed land surveyor
on the site itself.
MRS. MOORE: But the only way that
can be done is to excavate it and it was
excavated for purposes of finding it by
Mr. Britanny (sic). If you'd like me to
produce an affidavit by Mr. Britanny
(sic), I can -- if that's easier than
having it excavated in order to have a
surveyor see it because obviously he
can't see underground.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I mean it
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can be located on the survey based upon
simply confirmation of the information
you can provide. They can do that as
long as --
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine as
long as -- that's fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They don't have to
excavate. I'm not going to suggest they
dig up the whole front yard.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. It's the
only way I know how to prove it to a
surveyor.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, but there has
been much discussion about the location
of the septic system.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think in fairness
having that accurately depicted for all
parties' sake would be a good thing to
do.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that acceptable?
Can you work that out?
MRS. MOORE: We can do anything
you'd like. I will try to get it within
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10 days, get you everything within 10
days. The surveyor I have no control
over, so --
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
BOARD ASST.: No there's no rush,
just so we have it. It carries over to
another meetings, that's all.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Whenever you can. The
Board has 62 days.
MRS. MOORE: Well are we closing the
meeting?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're closing
subject to the receipt of the --
MRS. MOORE: Subject to the receipt
of those three things.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're closing the
hearing subject to receipt.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's fine.
BOARD ASST.: The Board has 62 days
to make a decision.
MRS. MOORE: From the close of that
meeting, okay.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
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what
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Two things,
is the third thing?
MRS. MOORE: Well, the third thing
is the survey with the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
survey with the --
Oh, the final
MRS. MOORE: Well, the final survey
with -- the as-built survey with
sanitary. Okay, that's fine I can do
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh yeah, you might
as well have them put in where the
proposed drywell would be.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well they're
going to use a different system now.
MRS. MOORE: We'll wait to tell --
you tell us. We have the drywell
proposed -- oh, we don't have it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's not
located on there.
MRS. MOORE: It's going to be in the
-- we've told you the area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You said the area,
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but you know you can draw it in as a
proposed drywell.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or the option
of using the other system.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: They always like to
have the final map before they vote on
it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I will. With
drywell locations.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore,
you'll submit that to the Board at the
same time you'll submit it to Mr.
Butterfield and Mr. Butterfield will have
10 days to submit his
How's that?
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
response back.
I thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mr.
Butterfield.
I have a hand from the Chief
Principle Building Inspector, Mr. Verity.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Michael
Verity, Chief Building Inspector Town of
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Southold.
Did you make a comment that the
cesspool was located on the site plan?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, on this one,
yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The one they just
submitted.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Well, no the one we
submitted before, this one --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: I just
want to make a general statement in
reference to that, that is acceptable by
both the Suffolk County Health
Department, by the Building Department
and any other agencies normally accept
that of an engineer or of
and I just wanted to make
statement. An additional
an architect
that general
survey --
BOARD ASST.: The Board usually has
it done on a survey for accuracy for
scale and everything.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Okay, it
has to be to scale when it's also done by
a licensed professional.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: It's to scale here.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Okay, I
just want to make that statement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Again,
I'm not in favor or against the project,
I just want to make that statement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much Mr. Verity.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am.
MS. MULLADY: I'm wondering how many
of you remember the spring about four
years ago when we had eight or nine
inches of rain within a five-day period?
MEMBER OLIVA: We had 14 inches one
weekend too, years ago.
MS. MULLADY: I have an old-
fashioned well I have to climb down an 8-
foot ladder to change my (inaudible) to
soften the water. I couldn't get in my
well, that's how high the water was.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MS. MULLADY: Three of us had to
have our cesspools pumped that year. So
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what's going -- where is this water going
when we have such visits from the
elements? They're on top of the hill,
they're not immune to the gullies.
They've got one starting, it's gradually
working its way west. The water is going
-- they're at the highest point, I
believe, it's going to flow down and over
and this is what we're concerned about,
not the normal beautiful summer weekends
that the Ragusas enjoyed last year. It's
these crazy bits of weather, hurricanes,
northeasters. How many remember the
Halloween northeaster?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, ma'am.
MS. MULLADY: We had 15-16 feet of
water up our bluff. We didn't have a
beach. Everybody, including the
lighthouse lost the bottom of their steps
that year. I lost dunes. That was the
beginning of it, what happens when this
occurs? You have to figure not for the
usual, but the extraordinary, and that's
our problem. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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MS. RAGUSA: Can I just say one more
thing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MS. RAGUSA: Seems like my neighbors
are concerned rightfully so about their
properties and their investments, but I
also want you to understand that my
husband and I have made a substantial
investment in this house and my husband
is a physicist. That's his background in
knowing all of these things and the last
thing we would want to do to our property
or anybody's property is jeopardize it in
any way, that's why we went and we were
very diligent about hiring professionals
to let us know if it would, in fact,
impact the bluff, which we have been told
it will not and our piece of property.
We wouldn't have even gone forward to
bring it to the Zoning Board unless, you
know, if there was any kind of impact and
from what we have been told from the
various studies and from experts like Joe
Fischetti is that it is not going to
affect our neighbors' property or our
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property and I just want that to be clear
that we wouldn't want to be doing
anything to jeopardize anyone's.
I mean that's why if you look at it
it's incredibly small swimming pool,
almost a large Jacuzzi, but we just want
everybody to know that we're certainly
don't want to do anything to hurt their
property and that's why we've taken such
great efforts to basically study this
before we even ever brought it to your
attention, you know, cause certainly we
don't want our bluff and our investment
to be damaged in any way as well. So I
just wanted that to be on the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. RAGUSA: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no
further comment, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing subject to the
receipt of those four items that we have
just addressed.
MEMBER OLIVA: second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6151 Patricia and
Thomas Nadherny
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for a Variance under
Section 280-122, based on ZBA #5039
Zoning Code Interpretation (Walz), and
under Section 280-114, based on the
Building Inspector's March 21, 2008
Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed alterations to a existing
foundation without creating a new
nonconforming, and for a second-story
addition over the existing first floor of
the single-family dwelling. The reason
stated in disapproving the building
permit is that the new construction is
not permitted as an increase in the
degree of existing easterly setback
nonconformance which exists at less than
15 feet, at 1025 Pine Neck Road, land
adjacent to Jockey Creek, Southold; CTM
70-5-34."
Anyone?
MRS. MOORE: Sorry, I thought I had
one in between, I apologize.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: You can tell me your
story.
MRS. MOORE: I'll tell you my story.
This is actually relatively
straightforward and simple. Mr. and Mrs.
Nadherny are here they -- a little bit of
background, they're retired school
teachers so their budget is very modest
and what they are proposing to do is take
the existing house that they have, they
plan to live in the house full time, is
to change the roof line.
The bedroom -- there are some
bedrooms upstairs now? No bedrooms just
storage area, I'm sorry. There is a
window there so they're putting bedrooms
up on the second floor and what the
architect has advised me is that they are
doing it in such a way that the ceiling
of the fist floor is remaining so that
obviously keeping the costs down taking
the roof line and changing it above the
existing structure.
The only portions that are new
construction that requires the foundation
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
is there on the waterside of the house.
There is a screened in porch and an
enclosed porch. The screened in and
enclosed porch will be incorporated into
the kitchen. So under the screen porch
the foundation has to be new because I
believe it's just posts right now. So it
would have to be poured foundation.
Then, architecturally, there is a
change to the front of the house with a
small decked over porch. That's the
extent of the change to the house. Also
I would point out because the
nonconforming setback is between
themselves, the property next door, the
second floor is actually stepped back.
It's not the area that is closest to the
side lot, that roof line remains and the
second story is popping up further back
so it's keeping everything
proportionately from the side yard.
MEMBER OLIVA: Well, you had to
raise the house anyway because of the
grade down there?
MRS. MOORE: No.
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MEMBER OLIVA: I mean it's the same,
but I mean you're still having to build
above it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's taking the
exact same house and building on top of
it. Exactly.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah and the
foundation is secure under the --
MRS. MOORE: The architect has
inspected it. The house, all the
footings, everything appeared to be fine.
Their plan is again modest construction
keeping as much of the first floor as
they have now with some relatively minor
changes on the first floor. A wall in
the kitchen is opening up and a couple of
doorways, but aside from that a lot of
the spaces remain. Yeah.
This is the a-typical expansion now
in town.
MEMBER OLIVA: The master bedroom
then will be upstairs?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Otherwise, it's
rather minor. No, I don't think so. Not
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
right now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Applicant owns the
adjacent property.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And there's also a
lot of evergreen screening and
rhododendrons.
MRS. MOORE: It's an older property.
There is a lot of mature vegetation
that's not changing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and it's well
set back from the creek. So it's really
just Walz --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- cause you're
building over the existing, maintaining
existing setbacks.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER OLIVA: The interest is cute.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, the plans
look very nice the elevation is going to
be very attractive. Nice (inaudible)
pictures.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I have no
questions.
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MRS. MOORE: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I was
over to the site. I met these very nice
people and I understand the process that
they're looking to do and it seems to be
okay with me.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody in the
audience like to speak for or against
appeal number 61517
BOARD ASST.: If it's okay, we just
got an LWRP reply today and it's
inconsistent with the drywells and we
have an extra copy for you if you want to
MRS. MOORE: Oh, thank you. Yeah,
drywells are not mandatory, so we will
comply.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you'll
conform to that request?
MRS. MOORE: Provide an adequate
nonturf buffer landward of the top of the
bank -- well, there really -- the bank is
vegetated. I don't know, it's not really
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grass is it?
They want a nonturf buffer at the
top of the bank. I'm not sure that the
existing conditions are like that here.
That's the only one that I'm not sure can
be accommodated here, but we'll keep a --
it'll stay as it is, which is natural.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to
deal with it on an LWRP --
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. The
gutters, leaders, and drywells, of
course. Well, actually we'll accept
everything cause the Trustees are going
to ask for the same thing,
fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
so that's
Right.
Anybody else like to speak for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
*****************************************
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6162 - Terrance and
Sally McLaughlin
MEMBER WEISMAN:
~Request for a Variance under
Section 280-15, based on the Building
Inspector's April 18, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning additions and
alterations to a nonconforming accessory
garage located in a front yard, rather
than the code-required rear yard, at 369
Old Salt Road (and Bay Avenue),
Mattituck; CTM 144-5-9.1."
So let's -- is there anyone here
representing --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, Tom
Samuels.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Perhaps you want to
come forth?
I'm simply noting here that one of
the reasons for the variance is that
there is no rear yard given that there
area two street frontages, though the one
on Bay Avenue is fenced off completely by
a stockade fence and a lot of kind of
scrub vegetation. You are now proposing
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
a two-story presumably nonhabitable loft
described as a nonhabitable workroom on
the second floor. Ground level is a one-
car garage/pool house with half bath and
the second floor appears to be finished
walls and floor. It's pine over
subflooring. There is an existing
outdoor shower to remain.
Any plans for heat or air
conditioning in there?
MR. SAMUELS: I think there is plan
for air conditioning on the lower.
My name is Tom Samuels. I'm
architect from Cutchogue representing the
McLaughlins.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What kind of AC,
window unit or --
MR. SAMUELS: Probably -- no.
Probably so called split system, Sanyo
type not central.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you won't put in
a HVAC?
MR. SAMUELS: Correct, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's described as a
recreation room.
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MR. SAMUELS: On the first floor
it's essentially accessory to the pool,
nonhabitable space. It has a probably
would have a little wet bar with a half-
bath, an you noticed. It's to give the
kids a place to be inside adjacent to the
pool like any other pool house might be.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. This is
really a substantial proposal for a
septic system here. What's that all
about?
MR. SAMUELS: That's all about the
Health Department who used to be willing
to accept a one ring and a septic tank is
no longer willing to do that. They
basically want a -- the minimal system
they will accept is a shallow five-pool
system. It makes no sense. We have
their approval they, we have their final
approval on it. It's not necessary, it's
a waste, but that is the reg.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's enough for a
house.
MR. SAMUELS: It is enough for a
three-bedroom house, it's crazy, and I
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wish it weren't so, but that is their
minimum system.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you have a
letter indicating this
requirement? You have
this is a --
is a DEC
some evidence that
MR. SAMUELS: It's a Health
Department requirement. Yeah, Health
Department, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean Health
Department. You have a letter from them
so stating --
MR. S~tMUELS: I have their permit.
Oh, you actually want -- yeah, I do
probably. I have a notice of incomplete
application when they asked for it. They
do not -- the Health Department does not,
on accessory buildings, make any
determination about habitability and I
guess that might be what they're
thinking. It's not what we're thinking,
but as far as they're concerned this is
the minimum system and yes, I do have
documentation to that affect.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like a copy of
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that submitted.
MR. S~/~UELS:
As you said,
Absolutely.
Leslie, there's no rear
yard here, because there are two
frontages and it's not a corner, by
definition there is no rear yard. It was
probably something that happened due to
the merger law at some point. It's kind
of an anomaly I mean all the other houses
have the garage behind the house. So by
some type of definition you could call
that the rear yard, but not by the Zoning
Code, but I would reemphasize that it is
absolutely nonhabitable.
MEMBER WEISMAN: By that meaning
there's no sleeping plan for the --
MR. SAMUELS: Correct. No habitation
by all definition.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But, if you're
going to put in heat and air conditioning
it's not for seasonal use. It's not just
related to the pool.
MR. SAMUELS: It's the air
conditions, it's not really heat. It's
air conditioning.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not going to
be heated, just air conditioning?
MR. SAMUELS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Perhaps my
colleagues will have some other
questions, I'll come back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
cut to the chase, Tom.
MR. SAMUELS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is
that I briefly discussed the cesspool
system with the Building Department and
they were unaware of the use of the
building and they're requesting that you
come back based upon that system and the
rec room use to modify the notice of
disapproval. So --
MR. SAMUELS: I'm sorry how so?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we really
can't close the hearing today because
what we need is, if they are so inclined,
to modify possibly the notice of
disapproval based upon this rec room use.
Okay?
MR. SAMUELS: I don't understand.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's
what they asked for so I'm just telling
you that and so my suggest -- you
probably could go over there today, now.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay, I wish that they
had made that request in a little bit
more timely manner instead of having it
come to me like this in the hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I feel the
same --
MR. SAMUELS: And I understand that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- I think
it's the difference between a workshop
and a rec room is what they were
discussing and --
MR. SAMUELS: Between a workshop and
a rec room?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and they
would --
MR. SAMUELS: We're willing to
stipulate that it's a rec room, if that's
appropriate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand
that, but just make sure you pass it
through them so that we don't have to
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come back and have a second hearing and -
- we're going to have a second hearing
anyway unless you come back today, but
second notices going out to neighbors and
all the rest of this. Okay?
MR. SAMUELS: Maybe I'm -- I'm still
not sure I understand, Gerry, what they -
- the Building Department got back to you
saying they were not happy with the
Notice of Disapproval that they issued?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They said they
may have to enhance the Notice of
Disapproval.
BOARD ASST.: I guess what happened
was they compared our plan with their
plan in their files and you submitted two
different plans under the same dates, the
same revision dates.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: But they were
different --
MR. SAMUELS: Labels?
BOARD ASST.: -- identification,
different labels,
not on their set.
the sanitary system was
It was on ours, but
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not theirs.
MR. SAMUELS:
BOARD ASST.:
Correct.
It had a workshop on
theirs and on ours you had a rec room.
So they may find another reason for
writing a notice of disapproval; we don't
know. So they're saying have the
applicant send to them the new plans and
that's where we're at. We just found
out. We didn't know you didn't submit
these plans to the Building Department
like this, so --
MR. SAMUELS: Let me --
BOARD ASST.: We just found out
yesterday so --
MR. SAMUELS: Right, well the
difference -- yeah, I understand. Well,
the difference is the Health Department,
which we have now. I also have the
notice of incomplete application although
I don't have a copy for you, I can share
it with you about the size of the system
and what they're requiring.
BOARD ASST.: It's procedure, you
know --
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MR. SAMUELS:
BOARD ASST.:
amended, sorry.
MR. SAMUELS:
I understand.
-- when a plan is
Okay, so you want a
new Notice of Disapproval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. We
want you to have them look at it and they
will make that determination.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If they think
you need one, there may be a separate
line, an additional line. I mean there's
no doubt what you're telling us is
absolutely correct.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is what
the Health Department is requiring.
MR. SAMUELS: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is no
doubt that what you're telling us that
you're putting air conditioning in the
building. We understand that -- I
understand that.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But they
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wanted to re -- look at it and that was
it.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay, is there any
other questions I can answer now then
that might prevent us needing to come
back for a hearing -- for a second
hearing or if there is going to be a
second baring?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What's happening in
the nonhabitable loft?
MR. SAMUELS: Storage primarily and
also perhaps a little bit of work on
things. I mean we're taking over half of
their usable space in the garage in order
to build a pool house or to provide that
interior nonhabitable use and so, to
compensate, we'd like to have this extra
space on the upper level.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's got a
combination pool house, garage, rec room,
storage.
MR. SAMUELS:
to be nonhabitable
Correct, all intended
and legal uses.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: A this point we can't
move forward until we know what the
Building Department decides on the --
MR. SAMUELS: Okay, if we work that
out with them in a very prompt manner,
what would be the next step? You can't
close the hearing, I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I think we
probably could add it on for June.
MR. SAMUELS: Can you close it
subject to getting back a positive
response from them?
BOARD ASST.: We could adjourn this
to 3:15, I mean you would be the end of
the day hearing, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 3:15 on June
26th'
BOARD ASST.: Unless you find out
today the Building Department's not
changing anything on their determination,
then we can close the hearing.
MR. SAMUELS: Well, obviously, I can
go over there -- you mean before your
meeting closes today.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Right. If you let us
know today, we'll know --
MR. SAMUELS: We'll make an attempt
to do that. You'll be here for a little
while yet?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At least
another hour or so.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay, so I could talk
today --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so
we'll make a motion adjourning this
hearing for an hour until 3:30.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6154 - Henry Traendly
And Barbara A. Cadwallader
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances under Section
280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's January 30, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed single-
family dwelling, after demolition of an
existing building, with a single side
yard at less than the code-required
minimum of 10 feet, less than the
required combined side yards of 25 feet,
and less than 35 feet from the front yard
lot line, at 13000 Main Road, East Marion
adjacent to Gardiners Bay; CTM 31-14-11."
So there'll be a demolition of an
existing garage on a nonconforming 7,087
square feet lot in the R-40 District,
which currently a garage and beach cabana
in rather dilapidated condition.
Variances are needed for the single side
yard setback of 2 feet, while the Code
requires 10. A total side yard setback
of 7 feet, while the Code requires 25 and
the front yard setback of 25 while the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Code requires 35 feet. I think those are
the three variances before us. Setback
to the bulkhead is okay. It's located in
a flood zone, however, so it's
inconsistent with the LWRP, but they have
a Trustees permit.
All we have in front of us are
building diagrams that are submitted.
There are no architectural plans, no site
plan, no elevations or survey. So let's
see what it is.
Is there someone here to represent
this application?
BOARD ASST.:
MR. TRAENDLY:
Mr. Traendly is here.
Yes. I'm more than
happy to answer any questions you have,
but I'm not sure how to start.
I'm Henry Traendly. I'm the
applicant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
start?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
get back to it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Traendly
this definitely is a unique piece of
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You want me to
You go ahead, I'll
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
property. One of the major concerns I
have, having grown up out here on a 50-
foot lot, I realize this is a 38-foot lot
and 35 feet on the water. I don't
presently live at that site, but you need
to increase your side yards. One side
yard has to be at least 8 or 9 feet for
the ability to be able to get to the
waterside without going on your
neighbor's property. Alright? That
doesn't mean you can't elongate the house
a little bit more and I would say the
other side yard has to be increased also.
So what we're asking -- what I'm
asking you to do, in my opinion, is to
decrease the width of the house from 27.8
to a more favorable width. The house
that I lived in and grew up in and this
is not -- it had a conforming side yard
of 10 and 15 on a 50-foot lot or
thereabouts. You need to address the
size of that lot and the uniqueness of
that size based upon the type of house
that you want to construct there and you
can give me, I'm not speaking for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Board, a couple of options in that issue.
If I'm not mistaken, the minimum for a
one-story house, if it has not changed,
is 750 square feet, excuse me, for a two-
story house is 750 square feet on the
main floor, but you have certainly the
depth on this piece of property to make
it a little bit larger than that if you
so choose to. Alright, again the
minimum, if it has not changed, is 850
square feet, which quite honestly is 24
by 36 or there abouts and I'm just
throwing that out to you in my particular
opinion as being a member on this Board.
I am only one vote on this Board, trust
me, and that's the story.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I continue?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Traendly, what
we have here is a site survey showing
where you want to locate your house,
which is why the Building Department was
able to indicate that the side yards are
nonconforming, the front yard setback is
nonconforming and so on and then we have
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
these building diagrams. They're not
plans, they don't tell us what the house
is going to look like or exactly what's
going to be in each floor and so on.
They give us the height. They say you
want to put'in a full basement and so on
and it's two-story and that's about it,
which means -- I'd like to ask you how
far along have you gotten with the actual
design of the house? Have you gone any
further than what it is you submitted to
us?
MR. TRAENDLY: Well, it was --
conceptually, yes, but without meeting
with you folks, we didn't want to go too
far because it's expensive to do that and
then --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TRAENDLY:
make a modification
trying to avoid the
MEMBER WEISMAN:
very, very narrow, you know, long deep
piece of property and typically, you
know, those size properties were for very
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Okay.
-- learn you have to
afterwards so we're
cost in doing that.
Well, you do have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
small modest cottages. Now, you're not
proposing a huge house on this property;
however, you know, the lot width is only
35 feet, however, I agree with Mr.
Goehringer that you don't have any
proposed side yards and that's simply not
acceptable. I mean it's just way too
substantial a variance for a brand-new
house. You don't have predated Code --
something there that's predated to Code
that already had nonconformity. We're
going to want to see a proposal that is
as conforming as you can possibly make it
in terms of setbacks to the bulk
schedule.
MR. TRAENDLY: May I just suggest
one point?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Certainly.
MR. TRAENDLY: On the westerly side
yard setback the existing structure is
exactly the same we're not -- we've only
moved the proposed building further to
the road to accommodate environmental
concerns expressed by the Trustees, but
it was 2 feet -- as a matter of fact it
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was 2 feet
bought their property,
changing that at all.
just being -- in fact,
when Mr. and Mrs. Burton
so we're not
The footprint is
being moved
parallel to the large garage on the
westerly side, which is also just about
sitting on this property at 4.3 feet from
the side yard and it's going to be
actually in the shadow of that, you know,
westerly of this big garage building.
So I'm saying we're trying to keep
it, you know, we understand it was a
difficult situation, but we also tried to
use the existing structure on there as a
kind of a marker and run the building
further parallel and actually with full
recognition that we're going to encounter
a problem with the setback from the road,
but the trade-off, the quid pro quo, is
to provide a substantial amount of room,
almost 109 feet from the structures to
the water line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I would --
I'd like to say that while I understand
what you've just described as a
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
particular strategy, first of all, it was
a very small accessory structure that was
there and the laws governing setbacks for
accessory structures are very different
than principle dwellings. So once that
demolished you start from scratch, you
know, you're building something brand-new
and what was there before doesn't have a
great deal of bearing on what you're
allowed to do with a new dwelling on that
property.
MR. TRAENDY: I was not aware of
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're not
rebuilding the garage or the cabana or
whatever, it's beyond redemption, really.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're starting
from scratch and I think perhaps this
Board, I'll speak for myself, but I think
the others will likely agree that we are
going to require some side yards and, you
know, it would be good for you to check
with, your architect/surveyor and to
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
probably come back with a plan that's
more conforming.
MR. TRAENDLY: I'm, you know, I'm
seeking input from the Board, at this
point, and I'm actually asking for your
help.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. TRAENDLY: You know, we want to
comply to the extent possible with this
difficult property and we'll do so to the
extent that we're able to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not
positive that we can give you the total
input that you may be looking for, but
we're looking for --
increased side yards
least a minimum of
MR. TRAENDLY:
before, sir.
I'm looking for
on both sides and at
9 or 10 on one side.
You said 8 or 9
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well I'm
still going. Okay.
You need to use the mike, ma'am,
you're welcome to get up and use it. I
don't think he's finished with his
presentation. Do you want to hold your -
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- and let us run through these nice
people first, okay?
MR. TRAENDLY: Sure.
MEMBER OLIVA: Don't you have to
comply with FEMA or is your elevation
high enough that you don't?
MR. TRAENDLY:
we're high enough
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. TRAENDLY:
I understand that
from our engineer.
10 foot?
Yeah, well we'll have
to deal with the DEC to accommodate this.
I believe we are at
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. TRAENDLY:
MEMBER OLIVA:
full basement in?
MR. TRAENDLY:
10 foot.
You're at 10 foot?
Yeah.
And you want to put a
Maybe it'll be a
crawl space, I'm not sure, more likely a
crawl space.
MEMBER OLIVA: You're so near the --
I live in Orient, and you're so near the
bay there that I don't know how you're
going to get a basement that's not full
of water. Anyway, I agree you have to
increase your side yards.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So
that's where we are. It probably would
behoove you to find either the present
person that's representing you or another
person immediately from this area to
assist you in coming up with a plan and
resubmit that plan to us.
BOARD ASST.:
it, I'm sorry?
MR. TRAENDLY:
BOARD ASST.:
What type of plan is
Yeah, what --
What type of plan?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're looking
for any type -- we don't design houses.
All we do is deal with setbacks, so
whatever type of plan you're looking to
do --
BOARD ASST.: You mean site plan?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is fine
with us.
MR. TRAENDLY: I see what you're
saying.
You're looking for an increase in
the side yards.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In the side
yards, which would mean that you would
have to elongate the house.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or make it smaller.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. TRAENDLY: Procedurally what
happens with this --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Procedurally
you bring this application back. We can
keep this hearing open until you do that.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: All we have to
do is notice your neighbors again and we
would hope, if we did, that you would
come back to us in two or three months
and say yes, I'm ready. I have a new
plan.
MR. TRAENDLY: I think we'll be back
more rapidly than that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: I'll probably be able
to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then we could
probably put you on for the July
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calendar. Would you be happy with that?
MR. TRAENDLY: I'd rather have June,
but it's probably too late for June.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. TRAENDLY:
June?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
It's too late.
Is it too late for
Yes.
MR. TAENDLY: Okay, so I'll take
your earliest space available.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. We'll
definitely adjourn the hearing until that
date or thereabouts. Let's hear some
testimony from the remaining people that
have come to this hearing. This nice
lady was next.
MR. TRAENDLY: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you like
to use the mike for us?
MR. TRAENDLY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're
welcome. Thank you, sir.
You have to use the mike there.
Just state your name for the record,
please.
MS. BURTON: Oh okay. Norma Burton
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and I'm a neighbor. I understand that he
wants to put his house only 2 feet away
from our property line, which could
either be a fire hazard or a water run-
off or it would make it -- it would be
very unsightly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No
MS. BURTON: He can't do
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. BURTON: Okay.
CHAIPd~N GOEHRINGER:
longer.
it?
Can't do it.
So we ask you
to come to the July hearing. We'll give
you the specific date and time --
MS. BURTON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- before you
leave today and we'll see what the new
plan is.
MS. BURTON: Fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you.
Anybody else?
Joe Townsend, how are you,
MR. TOWNSEND: Fine,
How are you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
yOU.
MR. TOWNSEND:
sir?
Mr. Goehringer.
Nice to see
I'm Joseph Townsend,
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I'm the neighbor on the north side of
that property.
I wonder if you could bear with me
for a little bit, I wanted to give you a
little history of that site. The last
thing I want to do is to hurt Mr.
Traendly. He was a neighbor of mine for
many years across the road and was always
very nice and cordial to me and I don't
want to, you know, hurt him in anyway,
but I do think we should know -- you
should know about the history of this
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. TOWNSEND: Originally it was
part of the Mallard Inn property and
anybody that's been out here a long time
will realize the Mallard Inn came from
Long Beach and was part of the bunker
fishery over there and was brought over
and they had that whole parcel. In the
30s my neighbor to the west, Dr. Lamouz
(sic) became very friendly with the owner
of the Mallard Inn and he used to use
that property for access for his rowboat.
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This I've gotten from Mrs. Lamouz (sic)
who was my neighbor. I moved into my
house around 1979 and she lived there for
probably 10 years. She was very elderly,
but she told me that the owners of the
Mallard Inn were so friendly with Dr.
Lamouz (sic) that so that he would have
permanent access he cut off a 34 -- 35 in
the front and at the bulkhead is it's
somewhat narrower than that where the
bulkhead ends now, for a place where he
could build a little garage and keep his
rowboats. So he did and what he has
there, that building still exists on the
property. It's a small two-bay garage
with a dirt floor.
Mrs. Lamouz (sic) died, I don't know
exactly when, probably the late 80s or
early 90s and the estate came to me and
asked if I would be interested in buying
that property because Ms. Lamouz (sic)
mentioned that I would and they wanted at
that time I think around $40,000.00 for
the property. At that time, that was
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beyond my means and I think the other
neighbors were offered the same deal.
I think Mr. Traendly bought it for
something approximating that, maybe a
little more and made it part of his
property. Mr. Traendly bought the Old
Mallard Inn property and improved the
property dramatically. My assumption was
that he wanted that property to insulate
his property because he has a exercise
room in the garage that's right on the
western property line.
So I was surprised when I saw that
he had not sold that with the property
when he sold the house and then when I
found out there was a wetlands hearing on
it for the Trustees I started coming. I
just want people to realize that this
property is not as big as any other lot.
I think there was a representation at one
point that it was the same as the
Burton's property and it would appear so
if you look at this drawing that it's the
same, but the Burton's property is over
70 feet at the waterfront. It comes in a
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pie shape, so this line that's drawn down
parallel, if you're looking at that
thing, which appears
is 35 feet is wrong.
lot and the Burton's
to show that the lot
It's a pie-shaped
property is the next
smallest lot. So all the other lots are
significantly greater.
The bottom line is the property was
designed as access and it has value as
access. It has value to the
neighborhood. It certainly has more
value than it had when Mr. Traendly
bought it. My concern is that if we have
a, I mean, I don't see the hardship. I
don't see where it would be in the
character of the neighborhood because it
is by far the smallest lot over there.
It would be the smallest lot.
My concern is that if Mr. Traendly
becomes more and more committed to the
project and has more, you know, draws
plans and architecture plans and has an
attorney's fees and comes back and he's
going to be coming back to you many
times, I'm sure, or to somebody to
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perfect the proposal of a house on this
lot and the Health Department. He's got
water problems I think there. It is by
the way in a flood zone, there's no
question about that. My property is in a
flood zone and I'm higher than his. I'm
across the street. So there would be no
basement, it would be built up on piers
most likely. It would be a very small
house and it might be a desirable
pedatere (sic) for somebody or a small
summer bungalow, but it does not qualify
for a variance in my opinion. That's
basically it. Its best use is what it
was historically used for. I'll just see
if there's anything else.
No, that's about it. Thank you very
much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Mr. Traendly?
MR. TRAENDLY: May I respond to
that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. TRAENDLY: Number one regarding
the hardship, it is a hardship. I want
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to build a house there because I'm not in
the same financial condition I was before
911, quite frankly, but that's life. I
mean I don't go complaining about it.
Either is my physical condition the same
as it was a whole bunch of years ago, but
that's not relevant at all, nor is it
accurate.
Secondly, the house was not
purchased by me, it was purchased by me
and someone else with mostly someone
else's money. It was never purchased to
be adjunct to or included in the original
building. I had the fence going around
to the side to make sure we defined it
that way. It was never intended to be
joined in any way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it
presently is a legal lot and that's more
before us.
MR. TRAENDLY: Yeah, I'll get into
that as well. It became a legal lot in
1946. I have the Suffolk County tax maps
and it's definitely a legal lot. It's
definitely single and separate. We took
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great care to insure that and I bought it
with the intent of someday probably
downsizing and owning a house someplace
else and keeping that one because I love
East Marion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just say
this to you?
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We want to
work with you, but it's very important
that you listen to what Mr. Townsend said
and that is there are a significant
amount of approvals that you're going to
need, not just Trustees approval, Health
Department and other types of approvals
and, more importantly, I think this house
is going to have to be built on pilings
very similar to what Mr. Townsend was
saying based on this flood zone. So
these are all the things that you need
some assistance on before we even develop
the side yard aspects of the house.
MR. TRAENDLY: We've already
endeavored to do that. We have an
engineer who's been on this project for
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almost two years.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: And he deals directly
with the Suffolk County Health
Department, has direct contact with the
person in charge, so we're fully aware of
that. We've been to the DEC with it and
they're informally are okay with it, it's
non-jurisdictional for them. So we
actually have looked at that quite
carefully we wouldn't have gone forward
with it, we'd be just throwing money
away. So we are confident that we can
handle the Health Department issues,
quite confident as well as the DEC.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: I do appreciate, you
know, your advice and the caution. I'm
not in a position to be cavalier about
this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. You
know, it takes people a long time to get
the permits to build on a piece of
property like this.
MR. TRAENDLY: I know that.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So, you know,
you really need to be -- there's a lot of
perseverance that you need to have.
MR. TRAENDLY: Well we've been at
this, sir, for over two years now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: Maybe 22, 23 months.
No, I'm sorry, 26, 27 months.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So
we're going to just set the parameters
right here, okay, we will reconvene this
hearing. We will adjourn it and
reconvene this hearing on July 24th -- at
what time?
BOARD ASST.:
afternoon.
MR. TRAENDLY:
It is 1:30 in the
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, is there
anybody else who would like to speak? I
just want you to be aware that we will
have another proposal from Mr. Traendly
at that time and we will make you aware
of it. You're certainly welcome to come
in.
We need that proposal, Mr. Traendly,
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about 10 days before the hearing, if you
would submit it to us, please, or sooner.
Six copies, seven copies and you're
welcome to come in and take a look at it
prior to that also'in our office for
anybody that's interested.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
adjourning it as I just indicated.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
*****************************************
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HEARING #6168 - Carl Juul-Nielsen
And Patricia Cadavid
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under
Sections 280-122 and 280-134, based on
the Building Inspector's May 5, 2009
Notice of Disapproval and ZBA
Interpretation #5039 (Walz) concerning
proposed additions and alterations to the
existing single-family dwelling. The
reasons for disapproving the applicant's
request for a building permit are that
the new construction will constitute an
increase in the degree of nonconformance
when proposed with a minimum single side
yard setback at less than 15 feet, and
with total side yards at less than 35
feet. Location of Property: 1125 West
Cove Road, Cutchogue; CTM 111-3-14."
Go ahead, sir. The floor is yours.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mike Schwartz,
architect for the project. We're looking
for -- to expand the house a bit as shown
on the footprint and also to remove the
roof and construct a higher pitched roof
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with dormers to create a one and a half
story house. The ridge height will be
approximately 24 feet to the top from
grade and we're here really because of
the northeast and southwest corners are
about 3 to 4 feet encroaching in the
required side yard setback. So it's
really not the entire house just a small
section of it. So we're asking for
relief for those reasons.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, you know, it
looks pretty straightforward to me. It's
more a WAlz consideration than anything
else in that everything fairly exists
here and you just want to make the house
a little bit more livable. Is that --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Expand the
living space downstairs and get some
bedrooms upstairs.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and upstairs.
I really have no further questions.
Anybody else?
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell
you, Mr. Schwartz, I've been to the site
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twice. It is truly a beautiful site.
Now, you're going to utilize most of the
existing first floor or you're going to
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, there's
substantial interior renovation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Right,
So you will
utilize most of the -- except for the
small little additions that we're --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but the walls
are going to -- the walls are staying up,
right?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, there's a lot
of interior alteration that's going to
happen.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but I'm talking
about the outside exterior walls.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Um --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It doesn't look to
me like you're demoing this house.
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, not completely.
MEMBER OLIVA: Part of it.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is some
substantial deterioration.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you look at
it quickly --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I mean the
dotted lines, most of the interior walls
will be removed and replaced. The garage
is staying exactly intact and if you look
on the floor plan those dotted lines are
walls to be removed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What extent will
foundation work be necessary?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mainly new foundation
walls underneath the additions and that's
also shown on the foundation plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. I wanted
that on the record. You're building
within the existing footprint, yes?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, there is a
little bit -- there is expansion, but
it's not within the side yards. The
first floor expansion is not within the
side yards.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not in the
nonconforming part of it, right?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so there's no
increase in nonconformity, is what we're
saying.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Not with the
footprint expansion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and you're
just talking about the northeast and
southwest corners basically require --
that are nonconforming in terms of
setback.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Those existing
corners are within the required setbacks
so that's what --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just out of
curiosity the lot -- is that a for sale
on it where the driveway to this property
crosses over? How does that work? I
mean is that actually going to be sold?
MR. SCHWARTZ: It's -- yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So what happens
with that driveway, it's partly on the
neighboring property?
MR. SCHWARTZ: We're going to move
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it. One the site plan we showed it moved
onto this property and skirting up the
west side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, fine. So
access will be completely on this site.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
Yes.
Alright, no other
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're
there, Mark, we'll just see.
Is there anybody else who would like
to speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6161 - Jaime and
Nancy Santiago
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore,
what would you like to tell us about this
application?
MRS. MOORE: Well, originally the
pool was going to be attached to the
house with decking, but then the plan
changed, correct? Am I remembering
correctly? So, because of the patio, the
pool is now an accessory structure in the
side yard and it is proposed no closer
than the existing patio, which is
actually 100 -- well, the pool itself is
144 feet from the wood bulkhead off of
Little Peconic Bay. It's on the bay
side. We have 33 feet to the side
property. The plan pretty much shows
we're here for a technical variance
because the pool is in the side yard, but
otherwise would be conforming.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
aware that we sent this to
Conservation?
Okay, you are
Soil and Water
MRS. MOORE: No, I'm not aware of
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that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It says they
need about three weeks to do an
evaluation of the bluff.
MRS. MOORE: The house is actually
under construction and they're ready to
proceed with the pool and the masonry
work.
BOARD ASST.: No, we sent a letter
on May 9tn asking them if they could
respond within three weeks.
MRS. MOORE: Oh.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I
just said.
BOARD ASST.: But we have not
received their response.
MRS. MOORE: From whatever date you
sent it to them, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: So I'm sorry, May 9tn
you said?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, May 9th we sent
it.
MRS. MOORE: So it should have been
here by now, right?
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BOARD ASST.: So we just need a few
days in writing we should have it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, did you want to
say something?
MR. ZIZZI: Jim Zizzi, I'm the
builder.
That site through the approval
process through the Trustees we had
developed a plan where there were erosion
problems on the adjacent property. If
you notice there is a retaining wall that
cuts across and parallels the bluff and
that retaining wall was constructed under
engineer's guidance. We also provided on
both properties drywells with inlets on
the opposite side of the retaining wall
to take any water run-off that would
occur on flowing back from the bluff
because our properties slope back toward
the mainland. They don't slope over the
bluff. In one of the biggest efforts
that were made through the Trustees was
to protect the bluff and I think we did a
very good job in accomplishing that in
the historically difficult site.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
If you're aware of the old Case
(sic) property there was a sunken tennis
court that was there since 1917. We
maintained the house at the upper level
of the property and we did move it back
from the original Case (sic) property
house that was there. We were obviously
not permitted to put that swimming pool
closer to the bluff between the house and
the bluff. We inherited a sunken area
and the intent was always to have a
basement recreational room with three
doors out of it to the side property and
that's why the swimming pool is there.
If you know the rest of the property,
it's still very undulated and there's a
lot of contour in it. So I think what
we've done is to try to take the best
aspects of that property and try to
integrate it into a well thought out plan
and again part of it was doing a
comprehensive plan between the two pieces
of property that were there in order to
make this thing work and actually make
the bluff much more substantial.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
So, you know, again I know you have
procedures and that's how government
works, but Soil Conservation would
obviously need to review the Trustees
work. I think the Trustees did a really
wonderful job in the way they prepared
this site and we worked together with
them. That's all I wanted to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm happy you
mentioned that --
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- because
it's interesting to see what you did.
MRS. MOORE: I would also point out
that I was also involved with the sale of
the property from the Case family to Mr.
Santiago and it was actually two lots
that got merged. So the owner has really
done a beautiful job of downsizing or
reducing the yields of the property. It
could have been two separate homes and he
has one beautiful home instead.
It seems somewhat -- Soil and Water
really does not seem to be applicable
here because you have a property that has
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
a wood bulkhead. A secondary bulkhead is
-- actually three, four, the wood
bulkhead down at the toe of the slope and
then three other retaining walls landward
of it. The problem with this property --
there was no problem with this property,
if you recall. The Parks property next
door to the east -- I guess to the east.
MEMBER WEISMAN: West.
MRS. MOORE: West. On the survey
we're backwards, so to the west. It had
a bulkhead blow out -- excuse me, not
bulkhead, the bluff blew out and that was
primarily as a result of some trees and
landscaping that they did and all the
water from the property ended up running
down the bluff and essentially eliminated
the bluff. So we -- Mr. Santiago was in
the process of buying with the Case
family and we were all very concerned
that the issue of water containment be
addressed immediately by Parks and
certainly was incorporated, as Mr. Zizzi
pointed out, as a joint effort to be sure
that all of our water was contained and
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
all of the Parks water was contained as
to address the immediate problem and then
they also tied a bulkhead to our property
and some additional retaining walls. So
it was a great deal of infrastructure put
in here. At this point, the properties
are stable and really they've all spent a
lot of money on making sure that all
water issues have been addressed.
So I know that, you know, if Soil
and Water gets back to you right away,
great, but I don't want to see it delayed
too far because it is right in the midst
of construction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Upon physical
inspection, we -- the entire tennis court
has been removed; is that correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes it was.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me get an
idea so when I went to the house I saw
this very high, because of the topo of
the property and what you mentioned, sir,
these huge piers holding up the
foundation.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, the foundation.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so now
the pool is going to be placed at
relatively ground level?
MR. ZIZZI: Well, the approval --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Adjacent to
those?
MR. ZIZZI: The approval from the
Trustees was that the grade next to our
house was at elevation of 56 feet and
that's on all of our approvals. I set
the foundation based on that 56 feet,
which was part of the plans. I
constructed the -- our retaining wall at
57 feet and the idea was that we would be
coming out of the basement to a paved
area. The issue of it being a wood deck
was Scribner's error on the part of the
architect had nothing to do there was
never any intent to build anything wood
on that property. It was always intended
to be stone or brick. So we corrected
that, we're modifying with the Trustees
that one part of it, but that is our
basic plan to utilize the grades that are
there and have that pool at that one
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
level.
MRS. MOORE: I think what you're
asking is -- what you saw as an opening
of the foundation is actually going to be
a family room that goes straight out to
the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, you
just open the doors. I mean you have to
lift it a little so it doesn't end up
being a recharge basin.
MR. ZIZZI: Oh absolutely. That's
why the whole grading of what we're going
to do --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. ZIZZI: -- over there is kind of
like as the property slopes down we kind
of broke the slope as you're coming up
the driveway. We still have a little
fill work to do at the back of the
property by the house and in the garage
area, but we've basically established
that level plateau area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to the last discussion I
So going back
just had with --
in my statement is it going to be raised
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
like three feet or --
MR. ZIZZI: The pool?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. ZIZZI: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to
remain on grade and just cut it right
out?
MR. ZIZZI: Yes, we have drywells
already located on that piece of
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, I saw
those drywells.
MR, ZIZZI: And there will be
additional drywells that will be put in
there for the Trustees' purposes of roof
run-off, etc. Our septic system is
forward of that area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the floor
of the basement will be pretty much level
with this patio that's coming in --
MR. ZIZZI: It'll be three to four
feet, uh, three to four inches higher.
There'll be a lip there, there'll be a
little swale at the door. We've designed
that to take care of the fact that we
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
don't want water in that basement area,
obviously.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. The
reason why I asked that question is I've
never seen it constructed that way and
that is the reason why I'm asking that
question.
MR. ZIZZI: Well, you know, we do a
lot of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have nothing
against it, I just never saw it --
MR. ZIZZI: What we tried to do
there is obviously you have a topo there
that we utilized three sides of what was
there and we felt that the best way to
benefit the property was to leave the one
side, the westerly side open and have
that to be the access to the pool. The
Santiagos would have much preferred --
Mrs. Santiago would have much preferred
the pool to the water side. Alright, Mr.
Santiago is indifferent even about the
pool, you know, that's the way life is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, one of those.
MRS. MOORE: You hear a lot of that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
Men don't care, they don't want to
maintain a pool.
MR. ZIZZI: But I tell people all
the time I'm married, too, you know, so
whatever. So we really looked into the
whole aspect of it and I'm very conscious
of the fact that as a builder I don't
want water anywhere near that house and I
think we've worked that out. There is a
landscape plan now being developed for
the whole piece, which I think will be
pretty lovely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the pool
has no intentions of ever being enclosed;
is that correct?
MR. ZIZZI: Absolutely not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where is the
filtration system and the --
MR. ZIZZI: What we did is we
located it right behind the staircase
coming down from the upper area. It's an
area that is actually lower than the
bluff. We use what are called stage III
filters, which I think I've talked to the
Board about once before.
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. You did
speak to us about it before.
MR. ZIZZI: They are not required to
be backwashed. They're great on any kind
of a wetlands situations and I would
recommend people to use them. We use
them in Southampton Town all the time in
wetlands situations.
MRS. MOORE: That was the one I
mentioned.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we dealt
with it in Nassau Point.
MEMBER wEISMAN: The other side yard
or front yard or --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the other one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anywhere.
Any other questions, ladies and
gentlemen?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing
no further questions -- let me see.
Anybody in the audience?
Yes. You know, we're going to
receive Soil and Water and we're going to
give them a copy of it. I mean, that's
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basically it and so when we get it we'll
give it to you.
I'll make a motion closing the
hearing pending the receipt of Soil and
water and that's it.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
HEARING #6162 - Terrance and
Sally McLaughlin
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Samuels,
how are you?
MR. SAMUELS: Very well, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How did you
make out?
MR. SAMUELS: Very well, thank you.
Damen was kind enough to take it up
immediately and I'll give this to you,
but I'll just read it first into the
record.
Regarding the McLaughlin
disapproval, based on the revised plan
presented to me in my office today, which
I have here, which are the same as you
have and I'll show you that, no change in
the original Notice of Disapproval dated
April 18, 2008 is required. Both the
half-bath and pool house use are
permitted as of right.
I also have a copy of the Notice of
incomplete application from the Health
Department, submit floor plans, which
among other things states in remarks
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"minimum system for studio or garage
system is 300 square feet for leaching."
They were asking for three 4-foot deep
pools, we have five 2-foot deep pools
because of the dimension to ground water.
So that came as part of their application
process, which has subsequently led to a
permit which we have. I don't know if
you want a copy of that, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. SAMUELS: Maybe you don't need
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
have to ask the question.
here but Mrs. McLaughlin.
Any other questions?
Good we're done
I don't even
There's no one
How do you do?
No.
Hearing no further comment, I'll
make a motion closing the hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved. Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - May 29, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the
foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public
Hearings was prepared using four-track
electronic transcription equipment and is a
true and accurate record of the Hearings.
Signature~~
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
March 2, 2009
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