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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
February 19, 2009
9:33 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member 10:00 to end
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney
(Absent)
RECEXVED
BOARD OF APPEALS
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
John and Margaret Toner #6239 3-10
Phyllis Kaufer %6240 11-44, 163-165
Kevin B. and Jeanine Faga #6243 45-64
Timothy Wood and M.
I. Tsirnikas and M. Papgiannakis #6252
Deborah M. Pontino 96254
Lewis Topper %6248
Michael and Dana Meyran #6251
M. and L. Chapman Living Trust %6249
Lloyd Kaplan #6221
Hope Schneider %6215
Ryan and Jennifer Stork #6187 and %6232
Diane and Henry Hobbs 96247
Dougherty-Johnson %6244 65-81
166-177,
82-88
89-95
96-141
142-154
155-162
241-246
178-208
209-240
247-262
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING %6239 - John and Margaret Toner
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's amended
October 20, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning as-built additions and alterations
which exceed the code limitation of 20% of
buildable area lot coveraqe and is less than
the minimum required setbacks for combined
side yard setbacks of 25 feet. Location of
Property: 875 Sigsbee Road, Laurel; CTM 1000-
143-2-16."
Mr. and Mrs. Toner are you here?
MR. TONER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We ask you who will
be the spokesperson, either of you or both of
you, we don't care.
How are you?
MR. TONER: Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
to tell us about your request
Mr. Toner?
MR. TONER: Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
for variances,
We need you to
state your name for the record, I apologize.
MR. TONER: My name is John Toner,
residence is at 875 Sigsbee Road and the --
we're appealing the decision that was made
prior. I presume it's the size of the deck.
The deck was built in my spare time about 25
years ago. I had extra time on my hands and
nothing to do so I built a deck and
unbeknownst to me that in order to get a
Certificate of Occupancy for my building I had
to have the deck (inaudible) to that, so I'm
here today trying to get a variance for
approval for the C of O.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the record that I belong
I should say for
to the same
association that Mr. Toner does. I do and
myself and my wife own property along Sigsbee
Road one of sixty families as such, isn't that
correct?
MR. TONER: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and I've
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
probably known the Toners for what, 34 years?
MR. TONER: 35.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 35 years. We're
really dating ourselves, aren't we?
MR. TONER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll start with
Michael. Do you have any questions of Mr.
Toner, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: It's my understanding that
the circumstances for this C of O is that it's
part of a trust; is that correct?
MR. TONER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Who lives in there now, a
tenant?
MR. TONER: I have a tenant
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I see.
in there now.
Okay, this
is essentially something that was done a while
ago and in order for the Trust to be
negotiated for the C of O. Okay. There some
-- it is helpful that you could give us some
history of how it got to be this way and it's
perfectly understandable history. I don't
think I have any questions. The setbacks are
going to be 19 feet as opposed to 25 feet,
right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. TONER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: In the total side yard
setbacks, but I guess the issue is the lot
coverage. According to the records, there was
an earlier application that called for larger
lot coverage of 31 percent. Now that's been
reduced to 28 percent, that's part of the
history of this application?
MR. TONER: I'm not too clear on that.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
I think there's another --
The amended Notice?
Yeah, the amended
Disapproval, I thought there was an earlier
version of it that asked for a setback of --
I'm sorry, a
this
that
Notice
lot coverage of
is -- the one before us
correct?
MR. TONER: 28.66.
MEMBER SIMON: 28.66,
of Disapproval --
31 percent and
is 28 percent; is
yes. The earlier
BOARD ASST.:
in the file the Chairman has
him.
MEMBER SIMON: What was
Yeah, you're correct. It's
it in front of
actually done to
decrease the lot coverage of that?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. TONER: Oh, I had a deck in the rear
that I removed.
MEMBER SIMON: I see okay. So that --
that reduced the amount of the variance that's
required for lot coverage.
MR. TONER: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I don't have any
further questions.
MR. TONER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would appear that the
primary -- the total side yard setback is not,
you know, enormous difference. It's a very
small lot; it's well-screened from neighboring
properties by mature evergreens and the
(inaudible) and so on.
The Board attempts to grant the smallest
percentage of variance possible, feasible,
that's essentially what our responsibility is.
It appears that without the shed the lot
coverage would be reduced to 27.74 percent,
and without the shed and deck to 23.44
percent. I'm going to assume that certainly
the deck, since you've already removed part of
the deck that the remaining deck is something
that you would really like to keep.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. TONER: Yes, ma'am.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very low deck.
It isn't high up in the air, but it is
considered a structure because it's not at --
totally at grade. How important, I'll just
explore this with you without presupposing any
conclusion, how important is the existing
shed, if that was to be removed to reduce the
lot coverage to 27.74 percent? Is that a big
deal for you, not a big deal?
MR. TONER: It's easy to move the shed,
but the shed, you know, it's an integral part
of the house as far as the lawn mower and the
garden equipment to keep the house in good
shape without --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. TONER: -- that storage area it would
be very difficult.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, I'm exploring
it because I wanted to introduce to the record
that --
MR. TONER: It's an 8 by 8 shed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- for our
consideration, as a reason why you need the
shed, which apparently there is, usually there
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
is.
MR. TONER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
questions.
Okay, I don't have any
No. I don't have any
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course you don't
have a garage, so I can understand that the
shed is important to you.
MR. TONER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no question
about it. There's no anticipation of
enclosing any of these open porches or
anything of that nature?
MR. TONER: No, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, great. We'll
see what develops throughout the hearing.
Thank you very much.
MR. TONER: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Don't leave cause
we haven't closed the hearing yet.
MR. TONER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6240 - Phyllis Kaufer
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15c, based on the Building Inspector's
October 6, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed two-story accessory
garage which will exceed the code limitation
of 750 square feet. Location of Property:
3175 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue; CTM 1000-
104-13-12."
MR. WILLIAMS: Nigel Williams, architect,
representing Mr. and Mrs. Kaufer who are here
and their neighbor also, Mr. Casoni. Before I
start, Mr. Chairman, I have some photographs -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. WILLIAMS: -- and letters from the
property owners north and south of Mr. Kaufer
and insurance cards with photographs of the
cars as well, please?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: We need one of each of
these, one set of everything.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, there's only one
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
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set.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. May I begin, Mr.
Chairman?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. Mr. and Mrs. Kaufer
are looking for a 1440 square feet garage
where 760 is allowed right now, Mr. Chairman.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 750.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 750 isn't it?
MR. WILLIAMS: What did I say?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 760.
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry, sorry.
750 and
it's basically to house these classic cars
which you can see are attached with insurance
cards. It's located in an R-40 residential
zone district and the relief sought will be
690 square feet. The applicant is coming to
the Board in order to construct one garage
rather than build several separate structures.
I believe that the Board has granted
variances similar to this before and an
undesirable change will not occur in the
neighborhood. The terrain of the property is
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
such that Mr. Kaufer's property is lower than
the neighbors' properties to the north and
south and the road also lies approximately 10-
12 feet over the property where the garage
will be constructed and thus from the road you
will probably see only between 10 and 12 feet
of the top half of the garage.
The existing vegetation on subject
property suitably screens the garage from view
and I believe that's evident in the photograph
and the neighboring property to the south also
has a garage which is approximately 10 feet
above Mr. Kaufer's property, which would
screen his neighbor to the south and the net
affect of not granting this variance would
actually create an undesirable change if he
has to put more than one structure to house
his cars and there's no real feasible
alternative than to ask the Board to approve
this.
It's not substantial. The lot is large,
43,373 square feet, and thus, relative
speaking, the proposed 1440 square feet garage
would not be substantial. There are also
similar garages in the pictures submitted on
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
the properties to the north, which are two-
story structures closer to the road and closer
to property lines, which we're just asking for
an area variance not for side yard or anything
else.
The variance will not
impact on the environment,
have an adverse
only four trees
will be removed. Mr. and Mrs. Kaufer are
gonna revegetate and there are no wetlands and
no other archeologically significant issues in
the neighborhood.
That's basically the presentation.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I guess it's primarily
to house cars.
MR. WILLI~_MS:
cars, it's not just
MEMBER DINIZIO:
building?
MR. WILLIAMS:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. WILLIAMS:
Correct, it's classic
What's the height of the
It'll be 22 feet.
And how many stories?
Well, two, it'll be a
story and a half with storage above under the
roof structure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and I'm just
wondering, I mean, this law that was
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
implemented was not too long ago and 750
square feet was considered by our Town Board,
by other people, everybody voted on it,
certainly Ms. Weisman could tell you more
about it than I as I didn't attend those
meetings, but I'm gonna have a hard time
granting almost double the size of a building
that the Town agreed was more than sufficient
for an accessory structure on any piece of
property. So I need to have some explanation
from you, some real hardship as to the reason
why we should grant this variance. That's 100
percent, mind you.
MR. WILLIAMS: Correct, 690 square feet
additional to it. Mr. Kaufer is a classic car
collector, I mean that's kind of his life, and
basically we're asking for this because he's
not just parking a 2009 or 2010 model car in
his garage and as you can see by the pictures
they are classic cars and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I (inaudible) and I
understand classic cars. You know, I have
customers that have classic cars. You know,
they put them in commercial districts, they
don't put them in their -- keep them at their
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
house, and I'm not fully opposed to that,
except for the fact that, again, the Town
considered all of the arguments and decided
that 750 square feet was a large enough
accessory structure to support a piece of
property. I'm just asking from you, I'm not
opposed or for, but I need to have an argument
that says why I should grant a double -- a 100
percent variance against
of legislation.
MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
that particular piece
Well, I believe
that the laws written here allows 750 and it
could be in multiple structures and, again,
based on lot coverage, not exceeding lot
coverage --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. Right, certainly
our Code allows for --
MR. WILLIAMS: Right and there would be
10-foot separation between the structures.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. WILLIAMS: We're just asking, rather
than have all individual structures, if we can
have one structure that would be, what I
believe and I hope the Board would agree, less
of an impact on the site itself.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Maybe Leslie could
expound on that for me cause I don't
understand any of that particular reasoning
either.
MR. KAUFER: May I?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You just need to
state your name for the record, if you would?
MR. KAUFER: Stewart Kaufer, 3175 Nassau
Point Road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. KAUFER: When I submitted the plans
originally, I called up to get all the
setbacks, etc., etc. and I told them what the
square footage was and I guess they didn't
pick up on it, so when they called me two days
after I submitted it, I spoke to the young
lady in the Building Department, not the
Zoning Department, and she said after telling
me and I explained the amount of square feet.
She said well you could put up one or two, at
least two 750 square foot buildings without a
variance. My original reaction was to say how
close together can they be? She said whatever
the Fire Code was, etc., etc. That would add
up to 1500 square feet if two separate
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
buildings, which, as Nigel stated, would have
a much larger impact, not much larger, but
somewhat of an impact on the property and the
neighborhood and he didn't say we have about -
- it's not about, it's 130 feet from the road,
the requirement is 50. We have 130, 120-some-
odd feet from the rear property line. The
closest I am to the neighbor to the north
we're a couple of hundred feet away. The
neighbor to the south, who is here, is the
offset required, which is 17 feet. It's --
you can't see it in the summer at all. In the
winter, as he said, we're 11 feet 8 from the
street, you'd only see 12 foot 4 to the top of
the building.
I don't -- I think it's just less of an
impact than me having to build two separate
buildings and I plan on retiring here within
the next two or three years and live full-
time. It is an important part of my -- I have
more than those, I have obviously normal cars
that stay outside. So I have two temporary
things on the property now, which my cars are
rotting. I have no other place to put it, so
it's why I requested this.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
say that we did have an application, in fact,
it was the first application under the new law
and the gentleman recognized the fact that the
building could be quite large to house all his
vehicles so what he basically did was he
shrunk the building and put in lifts and
lifted the cars one over the other and that
was a split Board decision, but we did grant
that decision after a couple of revisions of
the plan and so on and so forth.
We have not had an application in
reference to, I don't believe, the housing of
historical cars or antique cars since then.
We've had a couple of applications with boats
and we granted alternate relief in those
situations, which means less than what was
requested.
I'll just leave it at that and go on to
Michael.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, this is for
clarification, first of all, it is, one
important thing to remember, for us anyway, is
that if we may consider the need to put your -
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
house your hobby in this building as a kind
of hardship, okay, we can feel free to do
that. On the other hand, in weighing that we
have to consider that a variance goes with the
property, which means -- it goes with the
land, which means a successor would have a
double-sized garage. They, a successor, may
have no interest whatsoever is your
interesting hobby and so what we would have
for an indefinite period of time is a double-
size garage in an area where other people
might like to have double-sized garages, too.
So we have a problem about the precedent.
That's a point of concern to me.
Another point is this, is that you're
absolutely right that the Code as written
allows for two buildings, but not for one and
you also have pointed out that it would
probably be -- if we think that it's intrusive
on the neighborhood to have this, you could do
something perfectly legal, which would be even
more intrusive. I'm not sure we're all
impressed with that argument. What you're
saying is when you're asking for variance,
what you're saying is the general rule is that
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
features of your property and not the use of
your property which means that the Code should
not be applied as written. You would like to
say that it could very well be amended, for
example, to support the kind of use that you
would like. We fill in the gap, we fine tune
the Code to fit the particularities of the
piece. Now, but if you talk about another
possibility which is technically which is
technically -- which is now still legal, then
the question you would ask would the Board
ideally be willing to maintain, if they had
the opportunity, a ruling which said you could
have your two buildings on this property
because I can imagine somebody wanting to do
this and say, hey, that can't be any better
than this. So I'm also, therefore, not
impressed with the fact that the law would
technically allow you to do something which
the Board might like even less. We don't find
that a terribly compelling argument.
So I think the problem is that I think we
certainly need more of a justification for
asking for a 90 percent variance in the lot
coverage for this particular project given,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
not just the alternatives, but given the whole
future of the project. As Jim said, there are
other places to house one's hobby. If it
takes -- if it requires space, maybe Gerry's
idea might work that it could be done in a
smaller garage if you want to have expanded
use. We're not limiting your garage that
maybe if you needed only a 10 or 20 percent
variance on the garage, you might be able to
use that for some other purpose, but I'm not
sure whether the Board is going to be
enthusiastic about granting it as approved --
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I --
MEMBER SIMON: -- as applied, sorry.
MR. KAUFER: May I just say several
things? By the way, two buildings was not
meant as a threat or --
MEMBER SIMON: I understand, I
understand, but I'm just saying it's a
hypothetical alternative and it's not an
alternative that makes us more happy. I'm not
suggesting that you're using it as a threat,
but somebody else could look at it and say
hey, why did you do that? We say, well he
could have done something worse. I had no
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
idea of saying that you would even say that.
MR. KAUFER: Yeah, I mean if I were the
only -- every -- I have run up and down our
street and I took pictures of other structures
that would be very similar to what I have.
They're there. They exist on one side of the
street, as a matter of fact, I didn't even
bother even going down the other side, if I
were the only one and this would be a one-time
thing, I might, you know, say well there's no
sense in applying it's (inaudible).
My property is unique also in that it
does hide so much of it, which I'm sure you're
interested in the impact on the neighborhood.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. KAUFER: If someone, other than my
children, after I'm gone, have my property,
which my children probably will, they can
knock down the building or make it smaller.
They're not stuck with it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I continue?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask
one question? Could you furnish us with a
couple of pictures of some of these places in
the area?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. WILLIAMS: Right,
attached to the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
attached?
We have them.
Oh, you have them.
there were some
There were some
MR. KAUFER: Yeah, not all the ones that
I took, we compacted it down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you could
furnish us with a couple of more, we'd
appreciate it. We, you know, we realize that
some of the houses are original -- excuse me,
Leslie, I apologize -- they're basically
carriage houses in the old days and those
still remain and people have maintained them
in pretty good condition. Particularly if you
further go up Nassau Point Road on your side,
on the water side, because we've had variances
on the houses. Actually total demolitions on
the houses, but the buildings have remained.
MR. KAUFER: None of the pictures I took
are of old original structures.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. I mean
those are the ones that come to quick
recollection for me.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. KAUFER: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Leslie, go ahead.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Kaufer.
I apologize,
Good morning, Mr.
MR. KAUFER: Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: A couple of things.
When I visited the property, I'd have to agree
with you that there are mitigating site-
specific conditions relative to visual impact
on the neighborhood. Those same circumstances
in other words a site that was not visible
from adjacent properties were before us about
a year, year and a half ago. The individual
lived in Mattituck and had an enormous lot.
This situation was a world-renowned artist who
needed to house enormous works of art that
were shipped all over the world. We denied it
because he already had two structures and if
he added an addition to it, it would have been
almost 100 percent variance. So he built one
-- right, another module right next to what
his existing storage was.
So one of our concerns is the percentage
of the variance required or requested as
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
applied for, which, as Jim pointed out, is
enormous. I sympathize that the situation
that you live in a neighborhood in which there
are structures that pre-date this law and as a
consequence it looks like well why am I the
only one that's being picked on here because,
you know, they all -- everybody else has
bigger structures. The same argument was made
for property on waterfront, which now has to
deal with FEMA regulations and so on that we
didn't know about years ago and the laws were
different then and those were allowed.
So while I understand your desire to do
this, another thing we consider is
alternative. Do you have any other
alternative (inaudible) objective as a
property owner? The height is one way of
doing it and attaching a structure is another.
If it were attached to your dwelling in some
way --
MR. KAUFER: That it couldn't be,
unfortunately.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- there's no issue
then.
MR. KAUFER: I would love that,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
unfortunately, the way the house is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The house is laid out,
yes.
MR. KAUFER: -- there's no way to do
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I raise these simply
so that (inaudible) the range of circumstances
that I believe the Board will be considering.
MR. KAUFER: I just stated -- I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm just going to ask
you have you figured out alternative relief?
MR. KAUFER: Well, obviously, I'd like
what I requested, but that doesn't look good.
Can I make the structure smaller and put lifts
in?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. KAUFER: Yes, I could do that. If
that's what I have to do, that's what I have
to do. 750 square feet is not big enough for
three cars, by the way. I mean, I'm not
saying let's make a deal, I'm not used to
public speaking by the way.
[Three people talking at the same time.]
BOARD ASST.: Move that mike up a little
bit, please, we're not picking up everything
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
you're saying.
MR. KAUFER:
you.
(Inaudible) sure, I told
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I
think you're
would have some latitude in -- so 12 by 24 or
36 by 24, it really doesn't fit three cars.
If I could do, I mean, if I could do 48 by 24
or 22 or, you know, if that would be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I don't think the
Board would necessarily design the garage.
You have --
MR. KAUFER: No,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
architect.
footage.
no.
-- a perfectly competent
You're telling us the square
MR. KAUFER: Well, I'm just stating that,
yeah, the 750 isn't enough for three cars to
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doing a pretty good job.
MR. KAUFER: Thank you.
750 square feet, you need about at least
12 feet, at least 12 feet and then you have to
be very careful getting in and out. Opening
the door and not hitting the other car or the
wall. So then you need a depth of -- a normal
garage is 20, but I really prefer 24 so I
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
go into especially with lifts, by the way,
because the lifts do take up room. I used to
manufacture those, by the way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh.
MR. KAUFER: And I -- the reason that I
have the height that I have is precisely for
future because I really have more than six old
cars and I was going to put lifts inside one
or two later on down the road when I'm here
full-time. So I need 11, a little over ll-
feet clear and I did want some storage above
and that's why the height of the garage is
important to me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me ask you
something, sir. How would you feel about
consulting with your architect, given the
discussion we've just had, and coming back
with an alternative plan for us? See what you
really feel is the minimum that you can
comfortably accomplish what you're interested
in, acknowledging that a 100 percent variance
is really more substantial than what this
Board is likely to grant. I won't speak for
anyone else, but it is just simply not typical
of anything that we would grant. We can't
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
change the law from up on the bench, you know,
we have to -- we can modify, that's what
appeal is about. Would you be -- if you would
be willing to do that, an option would be to
just keep the hearing open.
MR. KAUFER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Rather than messing
around, you know, for us giving you some
fictitious number, not fictitious, but some --
MR. KAUFER: When can I do that --
MEMBER SIMON: Speculative.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Speculative, yes.
MR. KAUFER: If I go outside the room,
when could I -- would I be able to come back
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
well we --
We would have
another hearing date for you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We could set another
date for you to return --
MR. KAUFER: Would it be --
You
MEMBER WEISMAN:
know, with a --
MR. KAUFER: I
-- with other plans.
submitted this on October
23rd and now we're four months down. I -- my
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
cars are suffering, it sounds ridiculous, but
they're mildewing and rotting in the -- you
were at the property --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I saw it.
MR. KAUFER: I have one enclosed and two
and I have three more all over the place,
which is not doing much good.
BOARD ASST.: How much time would you
need to consult with your architect and get
plans back to the Board?
MR. KAUFER: Well, the plans obviously
would take quite a bit, but a square footage
with -- it would be the same structure
looking, I could give you square footage in a
few minutes if I were able to speak to him.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine with
us. We'll adjourn the hearing for a little
while.
MR. KAUFER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We could reconvene in --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Gerry, can I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean what you just
suggested is 1056 square feet, which is, you
know, 48 by 22.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. KAUFER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's what you
suggested that that was pretty --
MR. KAUFER: Yes, I could --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- that's what how many
bays, three bays?
MR. KAUFER: That would be four bays.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, four bays.
MR. KAUFER: That would be three and
maybe a small car or --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What
each other? What about if
about if they faced
you pulled a car in
this side and a car in this side and a car in
this side? What about that?
MR. KAUFER: I -- well, the way the
property is and I don't have the offset to
come in from the other side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What, too much of a
hill, too much of a --
MR. KAUFER: Well, both. Too much of a
hill and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Because it slopes down
for the back of the house?
MR. KAUFER: Yes. There's not enough of
an offset on the south side.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and that's why you
wouldn't attach it to the house?
MR. KAUFER: I wouldn't attach it to the
house cause the house goes the other way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Correct.
MR. KAUFER: The house runs north and
south.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. You probably
(inaudible) the rear of the house or something
MR. KAUFER: No,
I'm on the water.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
the rear of the house,
Okay and you already
have an additional building on there already,
right? You have a separate --
MR. KAUFER: There was a one-car garage
when the house was built.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, with a deck on
there. You had a variance for a deck and that
kind of stuff, right?
MR. KAUFER: A deck?
shower on the side I have
It's not a variance, just
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh,
so maybe I --
No. That's a
a variance for.
a permit.
okay. Okay, alright
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. KAUFER: There is a little porch on
the front there was no variance, that was
existing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, cause I have a --
BOARD ASST.: There was a prior, yeah.
MR. KAUFER: Prior to me, maybe.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. KAUFER: Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't
know.
BOARD ASST.: It goes with the land.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's an additional
building on there, accessory structure.
MR. KAUKER: That's the garage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Other than your house,
right?
MR.
one-car
KAUFER: That's the garage, it's a
garage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I know and I
think your reasoning is why would you want to
have three accessory buildings when you could
just have two.
MR. KAUFER: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You have a right to have
probably three or four accessory buildings on
there, if that's what you chose to do and
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
scatter them about the property and you
wouldn't be before us.
MR. KAUFER: I'm enjoying this.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But you wanted to put
them together, they seem to be if you drive
by, you're not gonna see it cause it slopes
down.
MR. KAUFER: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's going to be high
garage, too.
MR. KAUFER: No, well it's -- no from the
street side it's in front of the garage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. KAUFER: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I mean, I don't know,
1056 square feet, is that sufficient?
MR. KAUFER: Is that what 22 by 48 is?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's what I got
here, I mean I could be wrong. I'm not a
mathematician.
MR. KAUFER: It doesn't sound, the truth
is it doesn't sound like I have much of a
choice so --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. KAUFER: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, honestly my
question isn't whether or not this will be
granted or not --
MR. KAUFER: No, I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- I just wanted to know
if you had a reasonable excuse that I could
write down as a reason to grant that much of a
variance. Again, the law itself, I'm not
necessarily in favor of or not in favor of,
but certainly the Town Board made the law for
a reason and 750 square feet seems to be the
number and you're asking us to double that.
MR. KAUFER: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, again, I don't
know -- I understand your reasoning certainly,
you don't think that you could make it a
bigger square-type of place where you could
put the cars, four cars in, you know, two on
one side and two on another, which was the
subject of our first variance that the
Chairman mentioned that was granted.
MR. KAUFER: No,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
doors or three doors,
and one on another and he has four
the --
This gentleman put four
I guess, two on one side
-- he could
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
put four cars in there.
MR. KAUFER: No. No, no. He has lifts
in his garage, that's how he has the four
cars.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He actually has
more cars than that, Jim.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but he could put
four cars on the ground.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the ground, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: On the ground floor of
that garage.
MR. KAUFER: And how many square feet?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I don't know.
You'd have to figure out.
MR. KAUFER: What I'm saying is you need
12 feet on the sides.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. KAUFER: To open the doors.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So if you had a 24 by 24
building.
MR. KAUFER: Right, you can only fit --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd do 24 by 40-
something, right?
MR. KAUEFER: For four cars, you need --
MEMBER DINIZIO: 42, 44 --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR.
can't --
this
way,
with.
way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. KAUFER: So you put
it's, you know, it's 40
KAUFER: For four cars across cause I
there's no room to go this way or
The car is longer than it is wide.
the cars this
feet to begin
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. So you said you
wanted 22 feet for each car --
MR. KAUFER: I said that I can get away
with 22, I'd love 24, which is what I
submitted.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh I thought it was 20
is good, but 22 would be better.
MR. KAUFER: No, it was 24 and I said 22.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. KAUFER: And we could squeeze in.
MR. WILLIAMS: May I answer MR. Dinizio,
please?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure.
MR. WILLIAMS: A 20 by 22 garage is
really tight. A 22 by 22 is reasonable, and a
24 by 24 garage allows you a little bit at the
rear if you wanted to build a workbench and
I'm just talking in general. I'm not talking
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
specific, but that's -- I mean a 20 by 22 is
tight without a doubt even for small cars.
BOARD ASST.: That's two cars?
MR. WILLIAMS: At two
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
talking no overhead garage
going to put second levels
MR. KAUFER: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
cars, correct.
We're, of course,
doors if you're
on.
They'll be the old
fashioned garage doors that open like this.
MR. KAUFER: No, no. The garage doors --
Well, in that 11 feet and change these garage
doors go straight up and against the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
KAUFER: They will -- these doors, by
in the plans will look like carriage
MR.
the way,
doors.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
are vertical doors?
Right, but those
MR. KAUFER: Those are vertical doors.
They're new types of door lifts now.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, what I was looking
for in my second line of questioning is if the
Board would be amenable to 1056 square feet
and it seems like you would be --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. KAUFER: I would love the 24 deep
rather than the 22 just to give me some space,
if you know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're asking for a
variance from our compromise? I would hate to
see you have to go away and come back another
day. I guess that's --
MR. KAUFER: Pardon me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It -- it -- I mean,
we said that we would adjourn the hearing for
a little while. It appears that we can't
adjourn it any closer than 1:00.
BOARD ASST.: 1:15.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:00 or 1:15 today.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think it's much more
sensible if the two of you consult with each
other.
MR. KAUFER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Rather than us going
back and forth (inaudible) --
MR. KAUFER: Yeah, I think --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and come back and let
us know what you perceive -- I don't care what
dimension it is, depth by what --
MR. KAUFER: Just the square footage,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just the square footage
that you feel is the minimum that you can get
away with and accomplish, maybe not everything
you want, maybe not every car for the future
or -- but knowing that 100 percent variance is
just too much and what we're having to
consider and come back to us and give us a
number and then we'll consider it carefully
and either grant it or grant alternative or
deny it. You know, we'll --
MR. KAUFER: Are you suggesting that
could be done today?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we're going to,
you know, we can just adjourn until 1:00 and
then you can come back with a number. We'll
hear what it is and we'll enter it into the
record and then we'll be able to deliberate
and not hold you up anymore. Once the square
footage is determined and granted, let's say,
your architect can redesign within the limits.
So that doesn't have to be done right away.
MR. KAUFER: Right.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: What has to be done is
the decision on the size.
MR. KAUFER: Right, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I think from a
convenience point of view in terms of your own
not wanting to be held up any longer --
MR. KAUFER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the fastest way to
expedite it is for you two to --
MR. KAUFER: I appreciate it. So it's
1:157
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:15.
MR. KAUFER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make a motion
adjourning the hearing to 1:15.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Gerry, would just make
sure that he knows we need new plans to make a
decision?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Mr. Kaufer,
this will be followed up, whatever you agree
with by plans --
MR. KAUFER: Yes, of course.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay, from your
architect.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. KAUFER: Yeah,
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr.
one request?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. WILLIAMS: If the
the south could just talk,
(inaudible) yeah.
Chairman, may I make
Sure.
property owner to
he did send a
43
letter saying he had no objections --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine.
MR. WILLIAMS: -- but if he could just
speak instead of dragging him back here at
1:15 as well? Is the letter sufficient?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, well --
Do we want to modify the resolution? We
didn't vote on it yet, so we'll modify the
resolution.
MR. WILLIAMS: I apologize, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll modify the
resolution.
BOARD ASST.: You're modifying it to
reopen for further testimony at this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do, sir?
Could you state your name for the record?
MR. CASANO: Robert Casano. My wife and
I own the property adjacent to Mr. and Mrs.
Kaufer and the way the land is set up and the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
height of our land and how low he is that we
don't see any objections with these plans.
I've seen the building plans and the drawings.
I've spent 35 years in commercial
construction, I know what plans look like. I
don't think this is going to have any adverse
affect, especially on me and I'm the closest
neighbor. I think it'll be a plus, it's a
good looking building. It's a rectangular
piece of land, there's not too much you can do
with it and I'd certainly rather see one nice
building rather than see a couple of buildings
split up around the place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I thank you.
MR. CASANO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'll continue
with that resolution and we do have a motion
and a second.
BOARD ASST.: Repeat the resolution,
please.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To adjourn the
hearing until 1:15 today and it was seconded
by --
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING #6243 - Kevin B. and Jeanine Faga
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116B, based on the Building Inspector's
October 23, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions and alterations
to the existing single-family dwelling at less
than the code-required minimum of 75 feet from
the existing bulkhead adjacent to Orient
Harbor, at 12580 Main Road, East Marion; CTM
Parcel 1000-31-14-8.2."
Would you state your name for the record,
Mr. Butler?
MR. BUTLER: Jeffrey T. Butler, P.E. here
on behalf of the applicant, Mr. Kevin Faga,
who's here with me as well, to present to you
his proposed project of renovating and putting
an addition on the existing dwelling that's in
place.
We've previously been to the DEC and have
a letter of non-jurisdiction from them and
then we went to the Trustees and the Trustees
gave us a permit for this with the request
that the front portion of the building, which
encroaches upon the Coastal Erosion Hazard
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Line be taken down as part of the renovations,
which we have shown on the map. Building area
to be removed. Also, since we have received
the Trustees' approval, as we know the flood
maps have changed here and are going to be
adopted, the existing dwelling is going to be
renovated, the foundation that's there, which
is adequate, has to be filled in to a certain
height now because of the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: FEMA.
MR. BUTLER: -- FEMA regulations and the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that be, do you know?
MR. BUTLER:
the foundation?
To what height will
It's only have to come up --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, sir.
MR. BUTLER: There can no longer be a
basement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. BUTLER: There's
place now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
fill it in?
MR. BUTLER:
Right.
a basement there in
So you're going to
It has to be filled in to a
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
crawl space height.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And is the height
of the blocks or the existing foundation going
to be increased?
MR. BUTLER: Yes. Because the new flood
maps are in a different datum than the datum
we have on our survey, it's 1989 datum versus
1927 datum, we believe we have to come up one
block, 8 inches, to make sure that the house
is flood compliant.
MEMBER OLIVA: What's your elevation
there?
MR. BUTLER: Our elevation is 11, uh, I
think it's 10.9 now. To finished floor, Mr.
Chairman?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, finished
floor.
MR.
10.77.
11.
BUTLER: Yeah, I believe now it's
We have to get up to above elevation
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay.
MR. BUTLER: Now this is full of gray
area, as you probably know, because of the two
datums that are used with the flood maps. The
flood zone actually came down, but the datum
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
comes up, so we're still trying to work out
that detail, but from what I've been able to
determine with the surveyor that we have to
come up probably about 8 inches.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's important that
we be aware of that so possibly that can be
incorporated within the decision.
MR. BUTLER: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Although that
doesn't really specifically affect a decision
of the Board, but we do like to have all that
information.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, I'm anticipating it.
MEMBER OLIVA: Are you going to lift the
house?
MR. BUTLER: Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because I live in Orient
on (Inaudible) Road and my next door neighbor
had to put a second story on cause it was too
and they lifted cause they needed about five
inches on the bottom, elevation 8 and it's fun
to watch it.
MR. BUTLER:
MEMBER OLIVA:
It's not fun to do.
They have a little more
room next door to me, not where you are.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The reason why
we're so inquisitive about this is, is this a
total demolition?
MR. BUTLER: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MR. BUTLER: The foundation that's in
place and, in fact, we -- is adequate to
support the loads of the house and the second
story that's proposed and the new work. The
floor system, if it comes up the 8 inches,
will need some remedial work. The outside
walls are hopefully going to stay in place.
They'll be shored up. The floor system that
goes on the second floor we have to do some
demolition to see what can stay. There is a -
- it's a one and a half story structure now.
It's a cape design.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. BUTLER: So we're not sure what that
can stay or that can go,
as a total demolition.
your question I hope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
so it's not proposed
That's the answer to
Yes, it does.
MR. BUTLER: Okay. That's our proposal.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Any other questions?
MEMBER OLIVA: I was down there yesterday
and I can see that the Trustees didn't
(inaudible) for you to move the house back.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, we had that discussion
with them also.
MEMBER OLIVA: Cause you really are
close.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions
at this point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would appear that the
existing closest setback to the bulkhead,
which includes the portion of the existing
one-story porch, is 19.1 feet and that you're
removing some of that.
MR. BUTLER: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The new addition as the
5 foot 7 inch deep proposed first and second
story porch at 22.4 feet from the wood
bulkhead. While this is not a total demo,
it's substantial demo, let's put it that way,
and there should be some flexibility in terms
of attempting to simply step things back as
much from the bulkhead as much as possible.
I, you know, I certainly understand and
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
appreciate your desire to try to use what's
there in the foundation and not completely
start from scratch. Having said that, should
the 5 foot 7 inch porch be -- the problem is
that the bulkhead is at an angle.
MR. BUTLER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, that's
creating kind of --
MR. BUTLER: Which is not the same angle
as the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Exactly. So let the
record reflect that there are conditions that
are very difficult citing the house.
MR. BUTLER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But if that porch gets,
I guess there's a Bilco door on the other
side. Is that what that square thing is?
MR. BUTLER: Uh, that's a chimney. Oh,
on the proposed addition?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Is that a
proposed chimney there?
MR. BUTLER: That's a chimney.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well I didn't -- I
can pull out the plans, but the fact is if
that was either reduced, 5.7 is very narrow,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
admittedly, it's not exactly a big space, but
if that were removed, you'd probably have
almost 28 feet setback from the bulkhead. I'm
just looking for ways in which we, you know,
do the least possible. It's a very nice
amenity, it looks nice on the elevation.
MR. BUTLER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But I'm bringing that up
to see if we can't get a greater setback
somehow and, if so, how.
MR. BUTLER: Okay, the amenity could
possibly be preserved --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. BUTLER: -- by shifting that element
back --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sliding the proposed
addition.
MR. BUTLER: -- the whole thing back.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yup.
MR. BUTLER: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, cause it is off
set at that corner.
MR. BUTLER: Right. The room size was
important and obviously being on the water
they wanted the porch.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
view.
MR.
that?
sir.
Sure, to have the water
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need your name,
MR. FAGA: I'm sorry, my name is Kevin
Faga. Good morning.
Mr. Butler and I just discussed that. He
brought that to my attention, what if we
decided to shift it forward and I don't see
any reason not to. I think certainly we can,
you know, we can establish it, make it
aesthetically pleasing and I don't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You wouldn't have to
change the design very much.
MR. FAGA: I don't think it would change
the design very much and I don't think it
would -- I'm not a construction person by any
means, but I think that really wouldn't affect
it as far as our ultimate use at all. So I
have no problem complying with that at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, how should we
proceed? Do you want to submit an amended
survey?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I would say.
MR. BUTLER: In the interest of time --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A new site plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Site plan (inaudible)
survey site plan.
MR. BUTLER: Would we have to come back
for that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. BUTLER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we can expedite it.
We have no desire to hold you up particularly,
but --
MR. BUTLER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to grant the least
variance possible.
BOARD ASST.:
You can submit it
It's the Board's request.
in writing with a cover
letter and we'll add it
the Board does not want
that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to the file. I assume
a new disapproval on
No, that's correct.
BOARD ASST.:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
setbacks there already.
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I just wanted to be sure.
We have so many
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. BUTLER: Can I ask another point?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. BUTLER: I'm not sure if this was
covered, the opposite side yard setback which
is 10 feet --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. BUTLER: -- we have an existing
structure as close as 9.3 feet. So that wall
-- and our second floor modification is being
changed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. BUTLER: Are we covered with this
variance for -- is that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's part of the
variance.
MR. BUTLER:
okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
noted.
code?
That's part of the variance,
The side yard setback is
MR. BUTLER: Yeah. Okay, good. I just -
saw that this morning and I --
BOARD ASST.: Side yard reduction?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute.
BOARD ASST.: The side yard meets the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: The total does.
MR. BUTLER: The total does, but that
side yard, which is 9.3 I wondered if the
Building Department --
BOARD ASST.: The Building Department did
not address that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They didn't mention it.
BOARD ASST.: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
BOARD ASST.: You
disapproval then.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
isn't it?
MR. BUTLER: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
should get a new
The minimum is 10 feet,
Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The wall is existing,
but we're adding a little bit of mass to that
wall. So it's changing.
BOARD ASST.: It's possible the Building
Department didn't get you amendment so they
didn't address it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the beauty of this thing.
over today and ask them to address
would.
Yeah, but here's
You can still go
it, if they
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. BUTLER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the
advantage of a day hearing.
MR. BUTLER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're not
shutdown, they're not closed.
MR. BUTLER: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So why don't you
make sure -- you know, we most recently had an
application down on Jockey Creek and we sent
the contractor over and we said give us the
hook, line and sinker, okay. Everything that
would concern this application so you don't
have to come back to us. So see if you're
able to get that done today.
MR. BUTLER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: There is one more question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Because it has not been
noticed to the neighbors and he's also
reducing the side yard setback, we have a
technical procedural (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we do.
MR. BUTLER: I'm not reducing the side
yard, am I?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: If it's less than 10 and
you're building in that area. Are you
building in that area?
MR. BUTLER: It's less than 10 now. I'm
reconstructing in that area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But it's going to be the
same setback as it is, on the foundation.
MR. BUTLER: It would be the same
setback.
BOARD ASST.: So it would probably be a
Walz that would be a decision from the
Building Department.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: See if they address
that or not.
BOARD ASST.:
variance for that,
If they do require another
then it's the same
procedure where you get a Notice of
Disapproval for that. You also have to
advertise it and notice the neighbors. Is it
worth it for you to do all that, I don't know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's where the
foundation is. There's even a little --
MR. BUTLER: There's a jog there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a jog right
there where the porch is, the existing porch,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
so I guess all we're trying to do is pick up
on details that might hang you up in some way
or another so that doesn't happen.
MR. BUTLER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If it were just a second
story addition, which might trigger Walz, I
don't know, but this would not be an issue
because it's there and you're not changing
anything. If you're going to deconstruct and
rebuild we want to make sure that that
nonconforming side yard is okay.
MR. FAGA: Is okay, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whether we say it's okay
(Inaudible) Building Department or it's a
nonevent. It doesn't -- they don't see it as
an issue.
MR. FAGA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So since you're not sure
exactly the extent to what demolition is going
to be required here and reconstruction, as is
usually the case when you do something like
this, just as well we don't want you to have
to come back here. We don't want to say well
you have to take that wall down because it was
rotted and we couldn't sister up anything. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
yeah, maybe it's a good thing to go consult
with them and just --
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me, are you done?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm done.
BOARD ASST.: On the Notice of
Disapproval dated October 23, 2008, they based
it on a site plan dated June 19, '08. The
plan that you submitted to us is dated -- was
last revised October 29, 2008. Apparently the
Building Department did not see it or it was
an oversight. I don't know.
MR. BUTLER: The only thing that was
added to that October site plan was at the
request of the Trustees, the hay bale erosion
control and the drywells.
BOARD ASST.: It also says the garage was
added September of '08, the Building
Department didn't see the garage.
MR. BUTLER: That they have. They saw
that.
BOARD ASST.: But on your plan it says
that it was added on September 29th, so there
may have been other changes that they were not
privy to.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, I know they saw the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
garage cause they asked me to move it.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, we have that on our
instruction sheet the little paragraph on the
bottom. Any time a plan is amended, different
than what you originally submit, you do need
to resubmit that amended plan to the Building
inspector.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the critical
situation would probably be this, Mr. Butler,
you're not going to get a CO
if you let it go,
because Walz will kick in.
MR. BUTLER: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
So you're going to
come back anyway. The point in question is
why don't we take care of the whole thing at
one time? Go over there, ask them for a new
Notice of Disapproval, indicate that situation
that you were discussing with us, okay, and
we'll just reconvene the hearing at a
different time with a new advertisement after
you inform the neighbors.
We can give you some time to go over
there and discuss that with them and just, you
know, have you back today and see which way
you want to go.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: Well, what we can do you'd
have to adjourn it. We'd have to give enough
time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we can give
enough time.
BOARD ASST.: We can adjourn it to next
month, possibly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we could do
that.
MR. BUTLER: If you adjourn it to next
month that'll give me time for posting and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, to deal with the
bulkhead setback, to get a Notice that
reflects the side yard. Just give them the
current survey or, better still, modify the
survey --
MR. BUTLER: That's what I'm thinking,
yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Push it back as far as
you can from the bulkhead and then let that be
the most recent and then take that in and then
they can see all -- everything that you're
intending to do, side yard, garage, bulkhead
setback and so on. They'll give you a new
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Notice and then we'll, you know, discuss it
again and then it should cover everything.
The new Notice the neighbors will be made
aware of the side yard and all the proposed
things and then we can --
BOARD ASST.: We'll readvertise this for
March 19th, if the Board's agreeable to that,
and the Board can close the hearing,
at that time.
MR. BUTLER:
BOARD ASST.:
you have 10-foot setback on the side.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, I don't -- we have to
demo the existing foundation to do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, so --
MR. BUTLER: We're trying to make this
economically feasible.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, that's important.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's better to go get
new Notice of Disapproval
your foundation.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah, I think that's the
cheaper route.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because he's not
going to get a CO.
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you know,
That sounds fine.
Or amend your plans so that
a
than to have to redo
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: For all of 7 inches or
something.
MR. BUTLER: Yeah. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so I'll
ask anybody else if there's anybody with
specific need to discuss this application at
this time. If not, I'll make a motion
adjourning the hearing until March 19th at --
what 2:45 or something?
BOARD ASST.: Well, it would have to be
renoticed and the (inaudible). I would say,
right now we can make it 12:45 or 1.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:00.
BOARD ASST.: 1:00 March 19.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think that
takes care of that. Thank you.
I offer that as a resolution. Do I have
a second?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING #6244 - Timothy Wood
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's revised
December 30, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed new single-family
dwelling {after demolition of the existing
building) in a location with front yard
setbacks at less than 35 feet, on this 10,067
square foot parcel. Location of property:
340 Locust Lane (and Korn Road), Southold; CTM
62-3-26."
Good morning.
MR. WOOD: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record, please, sir?
MR. WOOD: My name is Tim Wood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do, Mr.
Wood?
MR. WOOD: Can I approach the bench and
give you a petition from my neighbors in
support?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A petition in
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
favor?
MR. WOOD: In favor, I hope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
What would you like to tell us?
MR. WOOD: I know you're familiar with
the plans. We're asking for a full tear in
order to rebuild the house on the existing
foundation. We're asking for the variance
because the footprint's preexisting
nonconformity. We've consulted several
builders and architects and are confident that
the plans represent the best solution for us
and for our neighborhood.
When granted a variance we'll construct a
small house less than 2000 square feet that
fits with the character of the neighboring
houses. We'll meet all current building codes
and will reduce the footprint and will reduce
the nonconformity of the setback. An
undesirable change will not be produced in the
character of the neighborhood instead I
believe that it'll improve the neighborhood by
improving the house.
We need the variance to
because we want to reuse the
achieve this
existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
foundation and it does not conform to existing
setback regulations. Using the existing
foundation will not only make the project
affordable, but will allow us to maintain the
character of the house and the property.
After the substantiality of the proposal we've
been advised that a full demolition is less
costly and less time consuming than a
renovation and a full tear will allow us to
insure that all endemic problems with the
structure are resolved.
We hope to benefit the neighborhood by
rebuilding a dilapidated disintegrating
dwelling. We're making every effort to
conform to the current building codes and
making the structure habitable and affordable
for the long term. The renovation will give
us an opportunity to make the house sound,
attractive, energy efficient, and we believe
that the renovation will be beneficial to
everybody and I'm happy to entertain any
questions you have and if I can't answer them,
since I'm not a builder, Bob (inaudible)
who'll be building the house could also field
questions, if you have technical questions. I
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also have a couple of neighbors here who
hopefully will speak positively about the
plans. I think they will.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so basically
you're going to take that porch off, right?
MR. WOOD: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That'll give you a
little bit better setback around 9 feet
instead of 1.2 feet, right?
MR. WOOD: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And that's certainly a
good thing. How high is the house now? What
is the height, do you know approximately?
MR. WOOD: I don't know off the top of my
head. I know that we're increasing the load
slightly cause my kids, 7-year-old and 3-year-
old, are on that enclosed porch. That's where
they live so we're trying to give them, you
know, they're growing and we're trying to give
them small bedrooms and reducing the footprint
so we had to find space. So we created this
Cape, a partial second story and put the roof
in the back of the house so that to kind of
keep the load on Korn down. So I know we're
increasing it slightly, but we had to put a
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second story on.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, so you put a
dormer out the back.
MR. WOOD: Put the dormers out the back
and try to create a -- we need to increase the
load a little bit on Korn so that we can --
you know, we won't be bumping our heads. I
mean we're short, but we're not --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, no, no. I just
wanted to get an idea cause that's a very
small house.
MR. WOOD: Yes, it's a small house.
We're trying to keep it in the character of
the house that was there before, but you know
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I read your last
paragraph about the critters and the --
MR. WOOD: Yeah,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
was pretty good.
it's all true. Sorry.
Yeah, well I thought it
MR. WOOD: No offense.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, basically you want
to build it on this existing foundation --
MR. WOOD: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- there are other
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
hardships that would be created if you had to
tear the house down and move it back to a
conforming location. Now, we can (inaudible)
that tell me what it is that you would have to
go through.
MR. WOOD: We would have to pay to fill
the existing foundation and build a new
foundation. We would have to pay to regrade
the backyard which currently slopes at an
angle, which if move back would put the house
in a flood zone. We would have to incur the
increased cost of relandscaping a much larger
front yard, which frankly we can't afford,
we're maxing the budget out as it is. We'd
have to redo the entire septic system. I
understand we have to do some, but it would be
far more expensive. We'd have to shift the
primary yard area and this is kind of more
emotional and parental, we'd have to shift the
primary yard area from the back of the house,
which is safe for our kids, to the front
giving our kids a much smaller and less
functional area to play in. I mean it would
be throwing them out in the front yard on Korn
Road where the Pepsi trucks are going by to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
get to the 7-11 and so this yard is kind of
the sacred space. It's why we bought the
property in the first place.
I mean we knew coming out here that it
was the only thing we could afford. You know
we came out here in the height and we were
trying to get -- you know, move out here to
raise our kids and we bought the place knowing
that, you know, I don't know if we knew the
extent of it, but now we're down to a full
tear understanding that this is the best thing
to do, but it was the yard that we thought
okay this is enough for this, as long as we
have the space. We're trying to maintain that
space, that's the other thing, that's the
other thing, but also all this, you know,
basically, all these things I just listed
would make -- would just price us out. I mean
I don't know I think we'd be back to like not
being able to do anything.
slumlords.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
We'd be our own
Now look I just
want you to get on the record what it is that
you're looking for --
MR. WOOD: No, I understand.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: - so we have an idea
when we make a decision --
MR. WOOD: Right,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
facts.
MR. WOOD: Yeah,
I understand.
-- it's based on some
those are the facts as I
understand them. Those are the things that, I
mean there might be additional things, but to
me those things are a hardship --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly. They have
certainly, they bear on the fact that you
would like --
MR. WOOD: -- if that --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- to use that existing
foundation. That's the whole point.
MR. WOOD: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you're taking this
porch off, but to me it doesn't look like you
use the porch for going in and out of the
house, it's more for your kids.
MR. WOOD: Right, because --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, where the -- how
are you gong to get in and out of the house?
Is it on that street, is it on Korn?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. WOOD:
the
egress there.
No, we're not going to have
We're going to have, if you
look at the plans it's on the other side of
the house. Right now the front door faces
Korn, so we're going to turn the door so
there's a small parking area and then we'll
enter that way.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Which way? Where?
Oh, I see the plans.
MR. WOOD:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
from that?
MEMBER SIMON: What's important
will not be an entrance on Locust.
It'll be the west side, right.
Do you gain anything
is there
MR. WOOD: There will not be an entrance
on Locust and there won't be an entrance
facing Korn either. It'll be --
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're moving it over to
the side, certainly it's safer. You're not 9
feet from the --
MR. WOOD: -- the west side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- stepping onto the
road, basically.
MR. WOOD: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I think that's
all I have.
MR. WOOD: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: What you say makes a lot
of sense in there is a -- let's just get clear
in the nature of the variance we have to --
that you're seeking and you make a good case
for. One of the problems is the house is on a
corner lot and for technical reasons they both
count as front yards with 35-foot setbacks,
which means that in order to prove it -- even
as an improved plan is we have a 9-foot
setback where the code says 35,
lot.
MR. WOOD: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Ideally,
if the whole foundation were
which is a
ideally would be
crumbled, were
useless you'd probably move the whole house to
the west and be able to have a more reasonable
setback on this and be able to do what you
want to do.
be trashed,
to be.
MR.
The problem is the house has to
but the foundation does not have
WOOD: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: So basically what we have
here, I think what you're asking for, and tell
me if I'm right about this, is that because of
the fact that you can save the foundation and
a lot of money is involved, you're kind of
forced to ask for a very, very large variance
on that side yard setback on the Locust Avenue
side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The front.
MR. WOOD: The front.
MEMBER SIMON: The front, sorry, the
front yard setback and the argument for going
from 35 feet to 9 feet or 9.5 is, one, it's a
corner lot and that's always a troubling
situation and, two, there's a lot of money
involved in changing it.
MR. WOOD: Right.
think your perspective
you know, we're asking
I think that, I don't
if you look at it that,
for this variance which
is very large, but if you look at it from the
perspective that it's preexisting so we're not
asking to create a setback that doesn't
already exist.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. Just to
explain it --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. WOOD: Go ahead.
MEMBER SIMON: This is a familiar problem
because we have cases especially as far as the
law in concerned where there is a demo you
have to start over again as if there were
nothing on a property. We do have a number of
cases of people who want to demolish things
which are near the bay, 20 feet off the bay
and they want to rebuild where there has been
a nonconformity on that same spot and we tend
to take a dim view on that because this case
there'd have to be plenty of reasons and so
on. So the fact that it's a demo means that
formally we're expected to treat this as an
empty lot, but you're making a pretty good
argument, I think, for giving a large variance
on this lot. The fact that it's a corner
works in your favor because the setback that
we would be realistically considering is more
like a side yard setback as far as {inaudible)
are concerned because it's not where your
front entrance is.
MR. WOOD: Right. Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I think you've
done a very credible job of describing the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
site specific and economic specific conditions
that would mitigate the nonconformities that
you are, in fact, improving the situation by
creating a greater front yard setback on
Locust, which is very commendable.
The question Jim had earlier about the
height, the proposed height, has in part to do
with the fact that the current size of the
house will have significantly less -- does
have significantly less impact than a much
taller house that close to the street, you
know, is going to have; however, I think there
are really quite compelling reasons why the
preservation of that foundation and not having
to redo the septic and so on and further the
setback. The hardship is that you have two
front yards and a preexisting nonconformity.
So with the support of your neighbors --
MR. WOOD: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which is always very
helpful, I think that you have made a very
strong case on record for granting the, in my
opinion, which we all have to vote on and it
could be a very different one, but I don't
really (inaudible). I'm very clear what
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
you're proposing and I really like your
chickens.
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They came running out
me and a fabulous rooster you have.
MR. WOOD: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That doesn't
anything to do with the variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm done.
MR. WOOD: Whatever it takes.
MEMBER SIMON:
at
have
Is there a condition that
he keep the chickens?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. The coop is perfect
the chickens are great. They play in the
backyard, too, apparently.
MR. WOOD: That's true. I hadn't thought
about that, putting them in the front might be
problematic.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
for the record that I have
It probably would be,
I just want to say
extensively looked
at this house and I can understand the
problems that you and your family have
experienced and are continually experiencing,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
I should say, and I certainly concur with my
colleagues that the new plan is definitely
appropriate under the circumstances that
exist.
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
Let's speak to the neighbors.
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak in favor or
against?
MR. REILLY: Robert Reilly, how are you
doing?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hi.
MR. REILLY: I sold Tim the house. It's
MEMBER OLIVA: You're the guilty party.
MR. REILLY: There were critters, there's
five rooms. It's just, it's unrepairable and
if you make him set it back, you're putting
him in Mullen's parking lot, which there's
lights back there and it's -- that's kind of
the reason I sold him the house because of the
Mullen's parking lot and I moved across the
street to 470 and renovated that house. So I
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
think every thing he's asking for is
definitely warranted. I have no objections
whatsoever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. JANUZZI: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
MR. JANUZZI: My name is David Januzzi.
I'm Tim's neighbor approximately three houses
down to the south. I'm here this morning in
full support of this application. I think
it's a reasonable and attractive application,
given the circumstances of that particular
lot, but in the course of the discussions here
today I'm reminded that the same -- my own lot
two years ago I was making the same arguments
in front of you. I, too, have a corner lot
and the neighborhood has many, many
nonconforming lots with many of us have
problems with our setbacks so it certainly
would not be out of character to allow this to
continue on under the current plans that they
submitted and all the neighbors that I have
spoken to are all in full support of this and
think it's an attractive and a decent
application to grant.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. JANUZZI: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pleasure. Anybody
else?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6252 Isidoros Tsirnikas
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
15, based on the Building Inspector's November
12, 2008 Notice of Disapproval for a proposed
accessory swimming pool in a front yard
instead of the code-required rear yard, and
for a fence at a height which will exceed the
code limitation of four (4') feet in a front
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yard location adjacent to C.R.
Road). Location of Property:
Way, Greenport; CTM 1000-40-2-20."
Okay, I'm quite familiar as I live
neighborhood.
new
48 (a/k/a North
94 Homestead
in the
MS. QUIGLEY: Oh okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you evidently have a
-- want to put a new pool there. Do you
have a pool is there a pool there or
MS. QUIGLEY: No, there's no pool.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so --
MS. QUIGLEY: There's a pool next door.
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MEMBER DINIZIO:
fence also.
MS. QUIGLEY: Oh,
Right, right. They have
my name is Cathy
Quigley from Swim King Pools.
BOARD ASST.: We just need that for the
tape.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright. They have a
fence.
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes, there is a fence.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. You would like
to --
MS. QUIGLEY: They would like to put a
fence. There's a fence on both sides of the
property, then want to run along County Road
48 on the property side of the arborvitaes
that are there, they'll probably about six or
seven feet tall so the fence wouldn't be seen
from County Road 48.
side.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
the inside of those?
It'd be on the opposite
So you're putting it on
MS. QUIGLEY: On the inside.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, alright. What's
this fence for? I mean people driving by can
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
see -- the road is probably 15 feet above
that.
MS. QUIGLEY: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you know they don't
get much privacy. Is there any --
MS. QUIGLEY: No, cause you can actually
look down.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know, yes.
MS. QUIGLEY: Yeah, you can actually look
down into it. I think it's probably for
security and -- cause there is no fence along
County Road 48 at this point.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MS. QUIGLEY: I think probably what she
has there is a -- almost like a wire fence
that's on the other side of the shrubbery.
but next door they
6-foot fence.
Is there anything
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah,
have a fence.
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
else you'd like to add?
MS. QUIGLEY: No. Any other questions?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: I
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
don't have any
Yeah, it's the technical
architectural rear yard and you have, you
know, some evergreen screening, but certainly
we've granted -- right on the corner we
granted a 6-foot high fence because of safety
MS. QUIGLEY: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- where the traffic
light is on the North Road. Headlights coming
into the house and so on and it behooves
everyone to have that -- it really doesn't
operate as a neighborhood front yard. You
know, it -- so --
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're also bringing
the pool close to the house, removing the
retaining wall that was there.
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's on a level
area very close to the house and I think it'll
be a nice addition. I don't have any problems
with it at all. The evergreen screening I
presume will stay?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MS. QUIGLEY: Oh yes. Definitely and I
think --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah and the fence will
go --
MS. QUIGLEY: I think she's actually
intending to add more to that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have
is the fence is going to wrap around to the
west side; is that correct?
MS. QUIGLEY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and that's
going to remain 6-foot at that point?
MS. QUIGLEY: It's going to remain 6-
foot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We'll see if
there's any --
MS. QUIGLEY: There is a fence on that
side already I believe --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. QUIGLEY: -- it belongs to the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Neighbor?
MS. QUIGLEY: -- the other neighbor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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MS. QUIGLEY: So they're going to be
putting their own fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, I
don't have any objection to the application
other than to that fact.
We'll see if the neighbors have a concern
about that. Thank you.
MS. QUIGLEY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, would you use
the mike, sir, and state your name, please?
MR. CAMALARI: Hi, my name is Gerard
Camalari. I'm Vice President of Eastern Shore
Homeowners Association. I just want to get
something cleared up. When we talk about the
front yard, are we talking about the actual
front yard, the physical front yard?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. CAMALARI: We're talking about the
pool would go in the side where the Route 48
is?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's
MR. CAMALARI: Okay,
The back yard.
in their back yard.
cause I think --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's technically
considered a front yard because it's a street
MR. CAMALARI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
house.
MR.
That's the address, yeah.
So it's behind the
CAMALARI: I just -- a couple of
people came and they said -- I was wait a
minute why in the front yard? Why would
anybody do that?
Okay, thank you very much.
MEMBER SIMON: Another way of putting
that is, if it weren't for that technical
point, you wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be
talking to you.
MR. CAMALARI:
MEMBER SIMON:
That's exactly right.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6254 - Deborah M. Pontino
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Special Exception under
Section 280-13B to establish an Accessory
Apartment in this single-family dwelling, with
owner-occupancy, at 2675 Indian Neck Lane,
Peconic; CTM 1000-86-5-13."
Why don't I just'let you go ahead, since
you seem very prepared.
MS. PONTINO: I hope so. Good morning.
I'm Deborah Pontino the owner and occupier of
the structure.
BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing you well,
sorry.
MS. PONTINO: I'm sorry. I'm Deborah
Pontino. I am the owner and occupier of the
dwelling.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us?
MS. PONTINO: Well, essentially it is a
rather substantial structure. It is the
family home that, you know, I currently -- it
has been passed on to me and it's -- I
currently occupy only the first floor of the
building. The second floor is unoccupied
right now and I do not require that much
living space and I see that it would be an
opportunity to provide housing to a local --
someone who lives and works locally to utilize
the space of an existing dwelling at alleviate
any kind of shortage for someone who cares to
live and work locally and it also would enable
me to help off set any kind of maintenance
costs of this house, which is rather large and
I really don't need all that square footage
for myself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're referring to
the second story?
MS. PONTINO: Yes, sir.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, as you know,
because you've answered them in your
application, that a Special Exception for an
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Accessory Apartment has a series of
requirements. You have provided us with a
pre-CO indicating the house was built,
obviously, it was built before 1984. If
you've seen the house it's obvious it was
built before then. Now we have that and we
also have a site plan showing three parking
spaces. You have plenty of room for cars.
MS. PONTINO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The apartment is going
to be 850 square feet as proposed. The code
has a minimum of 450, that's fine. 36.5
percent of total livable space, the maximum
would have been 40 percent, so that's fine.
You're occupying 1,414.51 square feet, which
is 63.44 percent of the house and the house
itself is more than 1600 square feet. I'm
entering this to the record so that we're sure
that we understand that the requirements for
the Special Exception have been met as per the
code. I did inspect the house and saw that
you were living on the first floor and would
like to say that it's very nice to have an
application before us that is not already as-
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
built. That you have a vision to apply before
construction is undertaken, I appreciate that.
The house is very large.
MS. PONTINO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Deborah, I'd like to ask
you is this your full-time year-round
residence?
MS. PONTINO: Yes, it is. As I said,
it's the family home and I intend to live
there full-time as long as I am able and
consider myself a steward for the future
generations of this house. I'd like to
continue passing it on to my
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
- I don't really have -- the
is the Board will recall that we
variance for a deck.
MS. PONTINO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know,
family.
Think what else
only other thing
granted a
some of us
(inaudible) and at that time all we got was a
survey cause it was a deck, you didn't
particularly need anything else. So you're
proposing to renovate the two existing
porches, fine. You're going to have a semi-
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
private entrance, a shared side
basically.
MS. PONTINO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The
up the stairs and there's
there and a percentage of
yard entrance,
apartment is you go
the apartment up
that up there would
be for your own personal storage.
MS. PONTINO: Correct,
bedrooms.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
one of the
Well, I think the
architectural plans explain it very clearly.
I have no questions. So I don't have any
further questions at this time. The house was
built prior to 1920, about that?
MS. PONTINO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it's a good
structurally sound old house.
MS. ?ONTINO: Yes, it is. It's fabulous.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay --
MS. PONTINO: I just wanted to add that
when you were discussing the entrance to the
apartment there will not be any -- as you see
sometimes with second floor apartments on
houses, you can see that there are external
stairs leading up to the second floor and it's
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
quite obvious that this is a two-family, that
there is an apartment on the premises and that
won't be the case with this house. As you
discussed the south porch, there will be an
entrance into the south porch and then the
stairs leading to the second floor apartment
will be off of the south porch internal to the
house. It won't be at all visible. So the
outward appearance of the house will not alter
at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
I have no further
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have
is the parking area will be the one that's
utilized in the plan that you're showing at
the end of the driveway?
MS. PONTINO: Yes, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER DINIZIO: No
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
Okay.
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have questions,
just an observation. This is a case where
this is a Special Exception not a variance,
which means we actually don't have discretion.
We're really here so that we can check off the
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
things that Leslie mentioned and in this case
you seem to have satisfied all of them. We
have had other cases where everything was fine
except that three of them were not satisfied.
So we also had no discretion against turning
that down. In this case, we have no
discretion for approving or disapproving.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You do however have
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, one other thing I want
to mention, is that you be aware that this
does not run with the house, the Special
Exception. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do have
standards that are in the code and although
you have not mentioned those specific
standards, I don't see that there is any
contest with any of them on that basis. So we
just want you to be aware of that.
MS. PONTINO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want you to be
aware of that.
While you're standing there, is there
anybody else would like to speak for or
against this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6248 - Lewis Topper
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Location of Property: 3606 Camp Mineola
Road, Mattituck; adjacent to Great Peconic
Bay; CTM 1000-123-6-13. Request for Variances
under Sections 280-12 and 280-124, based on
the Building Inspector's amended October 10,
2008 Notice of Disapproval and the owner's
request for a building permit to construct ~
new single-family dwelling and a new accessory
building proposed with a nonconforming use
(after demolition of the existing dwelling and
existing nonconforming accessory building).
The reasons for disapproving the building
permit application are that:
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97
February 19, 2009
(1) the proposed single-family dwelling
will be less than 15 feet on a
single side yard;
(2) the proposed single-family dwelling
will be less than 35 feet for total
side yard setbacks;
(3) the proposed dwelling at less than
75 feet from the bulkhead adjacent
to great Peconic Bay;
(4) a new accessory building is proposed
with (nonconforming) habitable
space, and permitted uses are
limited to single-family detached
dwellings, not to exceed one
dwelling on each lot."
Mr. Cuddy?
MR. CUDDY: Thank you. Good morning,
Charles Cuddy for the applicant who is here
and I believe some of his neighbors are also
here. If I may, initially I'd like to place
this where the Board can see it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MR. CUDDY: Can you see it here?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can put it on that
front row.
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ZBA Town of Southold February 19, 2009
MR. CUDDY: Alright, this is property
known as Camp Mineola, which is Mattituck
along the bay. The lot in question is 33,000
square feet. It's in an R-40 zone, so by its
nature it's nonconforming, but also the use
probably is nonconforming, which I'll get into
in just a minute, but I think that Mr. Simon
sometimes likes to use legal terms, so I'll
say, it speaks for itself if you look at the
map there. This lot is narrow, which most of
the lots there are. They're small. We want
to put a house that's going to improve it, we
want to put a boathouse that I think would
improve it and I think the first thing I'd
like to get into, besides the nonconformity,
is that your packet will show that in 1967 a
CO was obtained for this site to have
permitted sleeping quarters so that over the
years there was a house and there was a garage
with sleeping quarters in it.
What Mr. Topper proposes to do now is to
not just renovate those, but to take them down
and to make new units there, to make a new
residence and to make a new garage. Both of
them would be smaller than the existing units.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Right now he has a total of about 2000 square
feet, he would end up with a total of about
1800 square feet boathouse, garage and
residence together. I just want to maybe
address in backwards order what's before you
because the most pressing thing to us is the
nonconforming.
We think the nonconforming issue should
be looked at again by this Board. I
understand that the Town has a sort of mantra
about conformity, that you want us to conform
precisely by having only one residence to a
lot. Obviously, there were two at least
living quarters on this lot. Ail he proposes
to do is to make them better, not make them
worse and I would hope that the Board would
really take a look at the thought process that
gets us to say that you can't have two units
on one lot.
You now can have an accessory apartment
so you can have two homes on a lot, but you
can't have, apparently, two units where
they're not attached. I'm not sure that's
appropriate. I don't know why it's done this
way, but I can tell you that in your code,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
which is Article 23, it doesn't talk about
residences, it talks about nonresidential
units being expanded. It doesn't say you
can't expand residential, that is you can't
have a nonconforming use that's expanded for
residences. It's just by implication and I
would hope that the Board would seriously
consider that this is not inappropriate to
take two buildings and make them much better,
but having said that I understand that that
has been a problem with the Building
Department, it apparently is a problem with
Town Code. I would hope that it could be
revisited and looked at.
Let me get on to the area variances. The
lot itself is very narrow.
BOARD ASST.: You said Article 23 of the
Code. I just wanted to make a note of what
section, Article --
MR. CUDDY: Okay, at the very beginning
of Article 23 is called Nonconforming Uses and
Buildings.
BOARD ASST.: You mean section of Chapter
280?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. CUDDY: 280 Article 23, I'm sorry.
280 of the Town Code --
MEMBER SIMON: Section 23.
MR. CUDDY: 280 Article 23 and I'm
talking about that Article in general.
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
MR. CUDDY: That Article has various
parts to it and that's what I'm referring to.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, then they have --
MR. CUDDY: Then they have
Nonresidential, that's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail of 23?
BOARD ASST.: Ail of 23.
MR. CUDDY: I'm talking about all of 23.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail of 23.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
MR. CUDDY: Okay, but getting back to the
question of area variances, it's virtually
impossible on a lot that's 49 feet wide at the
street and 55 feet wide at the bottom, at the
bay, to have a house that would be on it
that's much smaller than the width of the
house that is proposed by Mr. Topper. On one
side he has 10 feet, on the other side
there'll be 20 feet. So instead of having 35
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
feet, which is required, he'll have 30 feet.
Right now the nearest part of the building to
the lot line is 4 feet. So we're actually
making it much better and that's one of the
things that we're talking about. We're
improving the site and so we're taking
something that was 4 feet, making it 10 feet,
making a total of 30 feet, again, on a lot
that's 50 wide, which is pretty hard to build
on. So I think for those two variances
they're not great in significance.
The one that seemed to be more sticking
was the 75-foot question. If you look at that
map and that's why I put it there, the aerial,
there's no lot on any place 1000 feet east,
1000 feet west that is more than 20 feet
setback, that is the house from the bay.
We're setting ours back 40 feet. Right now
it's setback 15 feet. So we're adding 25 feet
to it. The LWRP coordinator indicated that
that made it inconsistent with the policy of
the LWRP. I've prepared a memorandum, which
I'll hand up at the end of the hearing, and I
think that that's an error. I think that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
LWRP itself does not say 75 feet. The LWRP
says as far back as practical.
To put it 75 feet back would actually
place our garage in the tree line. So we'd be
taking down trees to build at this site. That
doesn't make any sense. It also doesn't make
any sense, quite frankly, from a market point
of view because we would have the only house
that's 75 feet back. Everybody else's is
within 10 feet of the beach and I think
there's an unfairness to that, but I think
also in my memo I point out to you that this
site is really a bulkheaded site. It's a site
that the FEMA requirements have to be complied
with when we build so there's going to be very
little problem with setting it back 40 feet as
opposed to 75 feet.
I would like to get back momentarily then
to the question of the nonconformity. We
believe strongly that we should be able to
have the two buildings replaced. In the event
that the Board does not believe that we should
have the two buildings replaced and used as
they presently are, we would offer an
alternative and I will hand those in, too, we
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
have two alternatives for the boathouse/garage
neither of which would have living quarters so
that the Board would have opportunity to do it
either way. Our preference, obviously, is to
do the first, but we understand that if the
conformity issue is there we don't want to
delay Mr. Topper from rebuilding his house. I
think his neighbors would prefer that he
rebuilds it. So I will hand up to you two
other proposals for the garage/boathouse,
neither of which include living quarters and
we would certainly covenant to that.
Again, I believe that meeting the
requirements of the code this is not anything
that you can propose an alternative for
because the alternative is to leave the houses
just as they are, which is not in very good
condition. As far as being substantial, at
least two of the variances are very
insubstantial. I think the third one, the 75-
foot one, is entirely appropriate since our 40
feet is much further back than anybody else.
I don't think there's any impact on the
neighborhood and I don't think that
comparatively speaking there's any impact on
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
the environment. This is not a self-created
situation. That's why the map is there, which
again speaks for itself because there's very
little else we can do except to improve the
property and that's what our intention is.
I'd be glad to take any questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like to say
this to you in all true candor, Mr. Cuddy,
I've known you for a long time and I consider
you to be a wonderful attorney, you've come
before this Board with great information about
your client's property. I will add to this
that I knew the prior owner of the property
and I knew the prior owner before them. Judge
(Inaudible) was a personal friend of mine,
okay. The McMahons lived on Sigsbee Road and
ironically they lived on Sigsbee Road in the
Toner house that we had a variance on today.
If there was anybody any closer than the
McMahons to my parents they were inseparable,
okay, however, when they moved to the
(Inaudible) property in the 70s or early 80s
we saw less of them, but I seem constantly
aware of the activity that occurred on that
property. I am in no way saying anything
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
against the McMahons, only Mrs. McMahons is
still alive, still presently with us, I should
say.
My question to you regarding that
accessory structure, which has sleeping
quarters, okay, and the nature of the
application -- the nature of the conditions of
that structure over the past 15-20 years,
prior to Mr. Topper acquiring the property,
were very strained between the Town and the
use of that property. My question to you at
this time, is there a kitchen facility in that
(inaudible}?
MR. CUDDY: I don't believe there is, but
I can maybe have Mr. Topper tell me.
No, there is none.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, just for the record
I'd like to show who answered the question.
MR. CUDDY: Okay, Lewis Topper answered
the question.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, we're not hearing you
well. I don't know if it's the mike, I'm
sorry.
MR. CUDDY: The microphone? Possibly I
have laryngitis so --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: No, I didn't hear the
gentleman in the back either. Can you move
the mike up a little bit?
MR. CUDDY: Is this better?
BOARD ASST.: That's much better, yes,
than you.
MR. CUDDY: Okay, sorry.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you, Mr. Cuddy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll just leave it
at that particular point at this time, but I
do have great history to this property and
I've been down there many, many, many, many
times and that's the story.
MR. CUDDY: I would like to hand up to
you two proposals for the garage/boathouse. I
would also like to hand up a memorandum in
response to the LWRP analysis by the LWRP
coordinator. I also have a letter from a
neighbor Mr. Daneri that may have been sent to
you. I have copies of that for the Board
also. So if I can add those things to the
file I would like to.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. CUDDY: I don't have anything further
to add at this time.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Mr. Cuddy can I just ask
you a question about the existing setback you
said from the water is what?
MR. CUDDY: The existing is 15 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 15 and you're going to
move it to 40.
MR. CUDDY: To 40, that's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
MR. CUDDY: 15 feet to 40 feet, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just wanted to add
that I think the design of the proposed
residence is very appropriate for this
shoestring lot that it's sitting on and will
be a marked improvement. I don't have any
problem at all, apparently either does Mr.
Daneri, with the side yard setbacks. I think
those are clearly inconsequential and
(inaudible) primarily. I don't think that's
problematic. I will -- I am very interested
to see alternative proposals for the
boathouse/garage.
At present, the laws about dwellings
other than living space that's attached to the
principal dwellings are what they are. I mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
if they're preexisting circumstances and you
renovate, that's within the law. If they're
demolished, that preexisting condition
disappears.
MR. CUDDY: In a way --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Board cannot legally
grant an accessory apartment in a structure
that is not attached.
MR. CUDDY: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually you can't on a
brand-new house at all because it has to have
been existing. As you might have heard from a
previous {inaudible) the code as now described
that an accessory apartment can only exist
attached and incidental to a principle
dwelling built before 1984.
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That law is under
discussion right now and it may well be that
the time will come where a possibility of
having accessory apartments in accessory
structures, you know, may be considered, but
at the moment it isn't.
MR. CUDDY: Oh, I understand that.
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February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I very much welcome
your proactive recognition of that by
providing us with some alternatives that will
not necessarily delay you and this process and
your client. So I want to take a close look
at that, but I think the house is extremely
sensitive to the site and very well suited for
it and I appreciate your effort to step it
back without out yelling at you to do so.
We'll see whether that, you know, it depends
on what this other application is all about.
MR. CUDDY: If I could just say the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I do think it is
inconsistent with the LWRP. I want to read
your reply, but when they say set it back as
far as practical --
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that means that
they're asking this Board to determine what
that means.
MR. CUDDY: Um-hrmn.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That they're saying meet
the code as described as closely as you can.
You know that.
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is certainly a
proposed improvement from what's there. The
houses that were built there were cottages.
They were small little houses that predated
any of the -- now they're being renovated.
Many of them have been renovated. A lot of
them are tear downs, a lot of them are
substantial additions. As you know we had an
applicant, the Daneri's were here before us
attempting to tear things down and wanting to
rebuild with various setbacks and so on.
So this is typical of what's going on all
along those lots, they're all the same lots.
I think the house, as I said, the house as
proposed is very sensitive to the site. It
should be a really nice addition.
MR. CUDDY: I just want to say one thing
that the preference for the garage/boathouse
is item number 1, which I think is
architecturally more interesting as opposed to
number 2 and I recognize your concerns about
the nonconformity and I'm just point out
density-wise that we do have two units on one
lot.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
be GSl?
MR. CUDDY: That's
BOARD ASST.: That
number 1.
MR. CUDDY: Number
Yes.
item number 1 would
right.
you submitted today,
1 is the preference.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm a little
unclear on this. My understanding is you
currently have approval for two sets of
sleeping quarters on that piece of property
now.
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The sleeping quarters
thing, I guess, is because one doesn't have a
kitchen?
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just a place where
you have guests come and stay?
MR. CUDDY: That's correct, yes.
have
MEMBER DINIZIO:
a bed in there,
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
It's kept clean and you
right?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO:
that, you know,
apartments --
MR. CUDDY:
And your argument is
Jeez, we allow accessory
Urn- hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- which have full-blown
kitchens and families can live there. We're
just putting a bed in the garage and that's
your argument, right?
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. So I mean you're
just asking us to preserve what you have.
MR. CUDDY: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're not asking us for
more than, anymore than --
MR. CUDDY: What we presently have.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- was approved by the
Town at some point in time; is that correct?
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean in other words
you had a CO for this --
MR. CUDDY: We had a CO in 1967 for that,
yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And it was sleeping
quarters, is that --
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: And a playhouse.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And a playhouse, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No cooking facilities
though.
MR. CUDDY: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the one --
what
you're proposing now is literally a kitchen
without a roof -- without a stove.
MR. CUDDY: Yeah,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
have a sleeping room,
114
we would not a kitchen.
You have a bathroom, you
you have a little
lounge, you have a little deck, it's an
apartment.
MR. CUDDY: It would be an --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The only thing that's
missing, there's a sink, there's a
refrigerator, the only thing that's not being
proposed in that second floor, from reading
the plans, is a stove.
MR. CUDDY: Yes and we would eliminate
the kitchen altogether, if necessary, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's I think is
where I was trying to get to is, you know,
before you had a bed in a garage, basically.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
Now, you've got pretty much a pretty nice
place.
MR. CUDDY: We would eliminate to just
sleeping quarters.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
mean if we said, look,
Yeah, right. Yeah, I
you can continue to
sleep in that building as long as you meet the
building codes, naturally --
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you know, the fire
codes whatever they are and you don't have,
you know, a toilet and all of that. That's
okay, I mean,
mean is that
MR. CUDDY:
that, yes.
that's another compromise. I
We would be willing to do
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You would be
willing to do what?
MR. CUDDY: We'd be willing to eliminate
the kitchen and to make it just sleeping
quarters, what we had previously. That was
our intent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is certainly
an area that the Board has difficulty with,
Mr. -- I'm not speaking for the Board -- I'll
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
say I have common knowledge that the Board has
difficulty in dealing with. I should say that
the nature of the problem that existed with
the Town was that of more than just sleeping
quarters in this building over a period of
time between (Inaudible) and present, okay,
and that's the reason why I asked the question
and so on and so forth. I don't think it was
recently, to be honest with you, okay.
Meaning just before Topper, I think it was
sometime ago. Definitely during the 80s and
90s.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just wondering
though, Gerry, is that something we need to
consider or, you know --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No we don't need to
consider --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- we're just
considering what's on the application or what
happened in the past?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
what exists today, just as
We need to consider
it exists.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, right. That's
what I was getting to the point about just the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
bed and not an elaborate -- I'm not sure you
would want to have closets in there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We let's -- if you
want to look at the
it.
structure, let's look at
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, no, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We really should
look at it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I'm not so
concerned about what it looks like, I'm just
concerned about what it's going to be used for
cause that's what's before us and you know if
I can grant what he's asking for and not what
he actually has on that drawing, I have no
trouble with that, but certainly we would have
to, you know, obviously put some conditions on
it.
MR. CUDDY: I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And that has existed
legally at one point in time and do we want
to, you know, allow it to continue? I guess
is what it is. I know nonconformities you
don't, but I think we've well overrun that
rule to a point that it no longer is feasible
for us to try to enforce it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Except in the area
of new construction.
MEMBER SIMON: Which -- I'm sorry, which
rule have we overrun?
MEMBER DINIZIO: The existing
nonconforming -- preexisting nonconforming
uses.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Except in the area
of new construction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have another
application this afternoon that we're
reviewing, for I think the third time, it's
the same thing. It's a demo of a house and a
garage with sleeping quarters.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think we've come to a
point, I wanted to make it clear that Mr.
Cuddy and the application isn't about adding
an existing dwelling or even an existing
anything other than wanting to keep --
MR. CUDDY: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- what the Town has
legalized at some point in time.
MR. CUDDY: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Beyond that, I mean, the
Board is going to make their decision based on
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Cuddy we have
taken substantial testimony most recently in
several hearings, more in particular on one on
Long Island Sound, okay, with the ability of
actually the destruction of property. Meaning
the attachment to property and what happens to
that variance, excuse me, to that C of O on
that situation and those are all issues that
the Board is -- that I'm running around in my
head about, okay. As is the case of this one,
which is ultimately a teardown and
reconstruction in a new location. Okay?
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Notwithstanding
that fact, I think the original -- the
existing dwelling is -- excuse me the proposed
dwelling is very tastefully done, alright, and
we'll just leave it at that.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, I admire you for at
least moving it back to 40 feet, but you know
how I feel about it, how about another 10-20
feet?
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
MR. CUDDY: You know, I think that there
gets to be a problem in two respects. One,
you have a waterfront house that you've moved
back 75 feet. You're now in back of your
neighbors' houses so you really get no side
view to the water. You also have the only
house on the block, so to speak, 1000 feet in
either direction, that's moved back more than
probably 15 feet and to make that a marketable
entity I think becomes a nonevent because you
have a house that you are selling as a
beachfront house that's the only house that's
way far back. We have -- we've tried to
exceed half of it going to 40 as opposed to
less than that --
MEMBER OLIVA: Commendable.
MR. CUDDY: -- and those are some of the
reasons why. I mean it gets to be a very
touchy problem. If everybody else were 40
feet back or 50 feet back, that would be good.
There are going to be very few people that are
going to be moving 40 or 50 feet back there,
so I think it's onerous to have that kind of
situation imposed on somebody who's making a
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
better situation, I think, in the
neighborhood.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'm also concerned about
the safety with erosion.
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER OLIVA: But we haven't had a bad
storm in a long time.
MR. CUDDY: The house will have to meet
the FEMA standards, we just will --
MEMBER OLIVA: I know thati but that
doesn't mean that it can't be overrun. Also
we've had a lot of discussion with these, we
have another application that also had a CO
for a sleeping quarters in a garage and half a
bath and we asked that gentleman to move that
house back and (inaudible) the house and they
are moving it back because the next door
neighbor of course has theirs when they
originally built it, but it's a difficult
situation to grant a nonconformity and keep
it, you know, keep it going.
MR. CUDDY: But the alternative is to say
to somebody leave what you have and it seems
to me the alternative here was better. If you
kept it where it was, you'd gain nothing.
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We'd rebuild the house maybe on the inside and
you had a house that was 15 feet back. So
we're trying to make an adjustment saying this
is an amount we can go back, but to push us
further back is really a hardship and I think
that's true and I think that's true and I
think the alternative is poor. You don't want
the house 15 feet away, you'd like it as far
back as you can get it. So that's why we did
it.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'm also discussing the
nonconformity of the second structure, the
sleeping quarters.
MR. CUDDY: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: It has a kitchen.
MR. CUDDY: The proposal did. What I
said was we were certainly willing to accept
what was there because we shouldn't be able to
get, I guess, more than what was there and
that's what I think Mr. Dinizio was making the
point of and that would be satisfactory, yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Sleeping quarters for how
many?
MR. CUDDY: For two.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: Two, just one bedroom over
the garage?
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Again technically, just
to let you know what the Board is faced with
cause this is now the second situation,
(inaudible) house and nonconforming garage
with sleeping quarters both torn down, both
being proposed to be rebuilt and the question
that we are really investigating is if someone
had sleeping quarters previously in an
accessory structure and it's torn down, does
that preexisting CO is it
MR. CUDDY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
extinguished?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do they have a right to
build anew? It's one thing renovating. We
all know the difference between that and a
teardown. It's the same situation and we
haven't concluded on that one yet either. So
I think we're going to see possibly more of
these in situations where there's waterfront
property because it is often better to tear
something down and start anew and try to do it
more, you know, to upgrade the whole thing
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that way than to rebuild.
124
February 19, 2009
So we'll see, but -
BOARD ASST.: I think they are though,
right? They are rebuilding?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh yeah.
MR. CUDDY: Oh yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So is the other
applicant. I mean they're teardowns, they're
setting them back farther from the bulkhead in
both cases, the other one is setting it back
to a conforming distance, at this point, but
it's a different shaped lot. In that sense
they're quite different in terms of being site
specific. Just so you know that this is not a
unique situation for us, we have to kind of
develop I think a rational, legally sound
approach to how to handle these situations.
MR. CUDDY: Knowing that, we gave you the
alternative cause I recognize the problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, exactly. That's
why I very much appreciate you're doing this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We are going to
need
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square footages on the two new plans you gave
US.
BOARD ASST.: For the sleeping area
separate from the garage and the second floor
MR. CUDDY: Okay, I will give you that.
BOARD ASST.: -- plan loft is missing
from the alternative.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think that
the code is specific about voluntary or
involuntary destruction, but it always did
give the 50 percent and that necessarily was
not determined by anybody, but somebody in the
trade and usually the trade would be an
architect, you know, and that's pretty much
what I've always followed.
MR. CUDDY: By the way, the alternatives
there is no sleeping quarters in --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sorry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the
alternatives --
MR. CUDDY: In the alternatives there is
no sleeping quarters.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Wait a minute, let me see.
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MEMBER SIMON: Let me speak to several
things, first of all, the attorney has done a
very good job of pushing the envelope as far
as reasonably possible, but you make a very
good argument at the beginning, a very
compelling argument for the altering of the
Code with regard to accessory buildings,
accessory apartments as someone who is
judicially conservative at least on some kinds
of issues I don't believe that it is up to us
to legislating changes in the Code and the
Code is very clear. We also see the creepy
away of this code by this Board, I believe,
going past its mandate in setting variances
where we probably ought not to.
Specifically, we have several cases in
which somebody wants to demolish and then
build on it using a CO on a building that has
been demolished to use that as a justification
for building where it is contrary to the Code.
Now if there is a certain unfairness, the
unfairness of having a house which is farther
setback than the other ones is -- and the
unfairness maybe to that person is it's unfair
that the people who had the other houses were
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grandfathered because it's unfair that we --
the new builder did not have the advantages
that those people who are not rebuilding and
so it's kind of saying it's unfair to enforce
a new law as we come along because other
people are exempt from that and I don't know
that we would find that compelling, I doubt
very much if the Supreme Court where there are
legal actions would find it equally
compelling.
MR. CUDDY: I hope inequity they would.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. CUDDY: I
would.
MEMBER SIMON: Well,
the things that we count
What?
said, I hope inequity they
we hope -- one of
on is that the courts
are less likely to do equity than they are
doing law when the courts are doing less than
we agree they should be doing. Equity is
great, but it's a last resort, it's not the
first resort. I think it's interesting, you
talk about the support of the neighbors, I do
remember the variance application for the next
door neighbors to the east and not
surprisingly lots of neighbors were supportive
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of Mr. Daneri who wanted to demolish his house
and build it pretty close to where it was
before, 20-30 feet or 15 feet this.
Well essentially the argument from all
these people arguing together was it sounded
to me as though, I think I said this, that
we're kind of looking for a community
variance, a community exemption from these
laws which are trying to increase the setbacks
for houses and that doesn't -- is problematic
at least and, therefore, in regard first of
all to really both issues one has to do with
the setbacks and I think it is certainly
attractive idea that the amount of setback is
more than double what now exists, that I think
what we'll have no choice but to do is
consider what would be the affect on all the
other demolitions and whether we are willing
to say that to the neighborhood, we don't have
a choice as to whether something is a
precedent or not, is to say whether the 40-
foot setback as asked for would be sufficient
for essentially all the other houses which are
old and in need of demolition. We may decide
yes but I think we have to review it that way
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February 19, 2009
because we cannot view this as one case at a
time.
I just came from the Association of Towns
meeting and I got a list there of recent court
decisions from the Appellate Division both in
the 1st Dept and also, I think, in the 3rd
Dept, is that Boards that do not adhere to
precedents in similar cases lose before the
Supreme Court and there have been a couple of
Appellate Division cases on this. So we
cannot simply say, as some people do say, we
are not bound by precedent. Of course we are,
we may not be bound by precedent, but the next
person, what about them? So we have to worry
about that.
With regard to the survival of a C of 0
beyond the life of the building, that's a
problem, because as you could imagine almost
every house that is demolished anywhere once
had a C of O. Does that mean anything goes
for the other building? No. You might say
anything goes as long as it is similar to what
was torn down. Well, that would be something
interesting to write into the Code, but I
think it would be abuse of our discretion to
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February 19, 2009
take a step in that particular direction. So
I -- because of another case that we have
before us, in fact today, and others in the
past where we had a similar case of somebody
wanting to preserve a C of O to build a second
-- a sleeping unit is that that's very
problematic and the other 'one has to do with
something I'm sort of open to consider what
the advantages are of the 40-foot setback, the
75-foot setback or the 15-foot setback or
perhaps something in between and so I mean
this I just wanted to say that we do have --
We are struggling with these things in my
view, speaking from what I understand
(inaudible), these things which are still open
for discussion aren't really as open as
everybody believes because the Court has
spoken pretty clearly on some of those issues
and, for me, I think the legal issues are
fairly clear and I'm very happy to use
discretion where the law allows us discretion.
I don't think it's for us to decide what the
limits of our own discretions are.
MR. CUDDY: I only -- if I might just
respond quickly. I think there's a precedent
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in the 2nd Department about precedents. It
says Boards don't necessarily get bound by
precedent because most every decision is
unique. I'll get you that case in the 2nd
Dept.
MEMBER SIMON: Let me get you the new
case, too.
MR. CUDDY: Okay. Aside from that I
understand what you're saying, I'm hopeful
that being reasonable, having discretion that
the Board can say that 40 feet is appropriate.
It certainly is a much greater improvement
over what's there. I think going back further
in this case I pointed out goes into the tree
line, that's not an intelligent alternative
either, and also you're really saying to
people maybe you shouldn't be fixing up and
taking down and making new or even remodeling
your house because you're going to get stuck
with this 75-foot rule where nobody else is
and I think that's an unfairness and I would
hope the Board would think along those terms.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Nothing further.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We are at
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this particular -- Mr. Topper you want to
speak?
MR. TOPPER: I would just like to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name for the record, please?
MR. TOPPER: My name is Lewis Topper.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. TOPPER: Fine, thank you.
I would just like to make a couple of
comments. First of all, the property is
listed on this schedule as 3606 Camp Mineola
Road and the actual address is 120 Terry Path.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Well, that's because it's
on the Town Assessment records as that address
and you probably have two and old address and
new one and that's the current address on the
Town Assessment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you contact
the Assessor and have that changed, please?
MR. TOPPER: I could certainly do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. TOPPER: I would just like to explain
to the Board from a personal point of view, I
don't want to argue at cross-purposes to my
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own application, but it is very important for
me and Margaret, we're both co-owners of this
property, to at least start this project as
quickly as possible so we, you know, we can
have a nice residence and hopefully, you know,
a boathouse beyond it.
We would be, with regard to the accessory
residence, which you seem to have a lot of
issues with and certainly I understand some of
those, we have been very sensitive to that in
preparing this, you know, architectural
drawing. I think the original one that has
the boathouse with the residence is probably,
to my eye, the most, you know, visually
gratifying and the most aesthetically
beautiful rendering, but recognizing that that
could become an issue we quickly put together
those second two drawings and all I can say is
just I would love to get the project started.
We've been waiting so far 16 months and
carrying the purchase of this property so that
we can get it started and we just didn't want
to go through, we know how busy your schedules
are and we just didn't to see, you know, get
hearings going on and on. So we tried to do
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February 19, 2009
that.
As far as we're concerned, we'll covenant
whatever is necessary and hopefully get what
you folks feel is the best looking project and
most befitting the property -- the strange
property that we're on. We'll do whatever it
takes, you know, to get that, you know,
accessory residence approved and get the
project approved as well so we can get
started. That's really the only point I
wanted to say to the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Cuddy, so you
will give us on GSl which you handed out today
the square footage of the second story and
possibly a floor plan, just an open floor plan
or whatever exists there cause you know that's
really a garage. Okay?
MR. CUDDY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean is the
ceiling vaulted or is the ceiling -- is it cut
and is there any area of an attic in there and
that's the issue.
MR. CUDDY: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, thank you.
Mr. Daneri, you have a question or you
wanted to say something?
MR. DANERI: I don't have a question. I
just came down.
Good morning ladies and gentlemen of the
Board as you probably know my name is Gene
Daneri and I own the property immediately to
the east of the Topper application. As you
can see from my letter, I join in the
application. I understand that he is seeking
a variance from the 15-foot side yard setback
requirement that the Town has that's on my
side of the property, the east side of the
property. I have no objection to that. I
think that the application will benefit the
community as a whole and I hope that it will
be granted.
Thank you
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I need
to step this up a little bit, this hearing, I
believe Mr. Smith you're next.
MR. SMITH: Thank you. My name is
Thornton Smith I've been before you before on
a matter which has been discussed here and
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
we'll discuss today.
Kowalski two documents,
both.
BOARD ASST.: Yes,
I've submitted to Linda
I'd like to read them
I do have them, Mr.
Smith. I'm going to hand them out to the
Board right now.
MR. SMITH: Yes. I'm going to try to
restrain myself from making any comment during
the documents.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to Mr.
Smith cause I need to move this hearing on.
We still have two more before lunch and we
need to go.
MR. SMITH: I will eliminate reading my
document, if you wish to read it yourself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have no problem
with that, we'd just like you to state what
you want to be there for the record.
MR. SMITH: Well, in addition to what's
in the record, I am in -- well the first
document gives you reason as to why I am here,
namely that I represent my five children who
are the owners of my building, which is one
removed from Topper and next to Daneri and I
will refrain from reading what I want to say
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
on the case other than to say I would like to
read a quotation with regard to the 75-foot
setback, which is in my presentation. This is
a quotation that I presented to you in the
Daneri case.
"I recommend that you approve a 30-foot
setback for the 10 lots which comprise Camp
Mineola East any greater setback would be
incongruous in the community, would greatly
diminish its integrity and would, in our
opinion, substantially deter the Daneris from
undertaking the project. Such action would
create a hardship and would thus create
excellent grounds for an Article 78 proceeding
in which the entire community would support
the Daneris."
I want to add one other item from my
document:
"Any other conclusion from these two
cases, namely this one and the Daneris', would
not lead to a community in which all ten
houses are setback 75 feet. Much more,
probably, none of them would be touched in the
next 100 years because the 75-foot setback is
such a detriment to the rest of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
community."
I would hope as a result of your decision
in Daneri. Mr. Daneri is in Supreme Court
now, after one year in the Supreme Court I'm
happy to announce to you that last week or so
the Court admitted me to the hearing based on
the document I gave to you a year ago with
regard to my involvement in the case and let's
hope in the next year the Court will come down
with a decision with regard to the Daneri
case, which includes, of course, the 75-foot
issue.
I hope Mr. Cuddy will give me a copy of
his document on as far as practical and maybe
give one to Mr. Daneri. We both can submit it
to the Supreme Court before it finally comes
down to that decision, but it took us a year
to get me admitted so I suppose it's another
year before the decision.
With regard to the document which I've
put in, I'm in favor of the new facility. I
think it's an excellent solution to the
problem. They're making use of the long 600-
foot lot to make a 70-foot long building with
only a 22-foot frontage and they're only
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
looking for a 5-foot deviation from the Code
on side yard setbacks, which in this case is
indicated. I mentioned another case where if
it were fully approved, side yard setbacks
now, way down at the east end of our community
the house would only be 5-feet wide and the
only reason that gentleman hasn't been before
you is because he doesn't know how to solve
that problem. He would also be entitled to
some relief.
I think that's all I have to add to
what's in my document already.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much
I appreciate that immensely.
MR. SMITH: Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Question, counsel.
The only thing we did not discuss today was if
the Board was so inclined to grant sleeping
quarters in the accessory structure,
boathouse/garage combination, so on and so
forth, who would utilize that?
MR. CUDDY: The guests of the family.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it would not be rented?
MR. CUDDY: No. No,
Of the family. So
absolutely not.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
much.
MR.
MR.
I thank you very
CUDDY: Thank you.
SMITH: May I make one other comment?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
right?
MR. SMITH:
you can move the
You are Mr. Smith,
I'm Mr. Smith, right. Unless
second structure back, you
can't put the 70-foot building as the primary
structure. You've got to move the second
structure in order to get the new site on and
that's an, I agree with Ms. Weisman, that's an
excellent solution to the problem that's
occurred in the neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing and reserving
decision pending the information from Mr.
Cuddy regarding the GS2 -- excuse me -- GSl
the building with the significant sloped roof
rather than the gable end roof.
BOARD ASST.: Also the second floor
square footage, sleeping area --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not sleeping area,
there is no sleeping area, just whatever the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
second floor square footage
BOARD ASST.: Is there
there?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is going to be.
a sleeping area
NO.
Only on GS2.
BOARD ASST.:
to be sure.
Thank you. I just wanted
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: So the accessory building
is a conforming -- would be conforming and not
with sleeping area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it would be a
conforming use.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would be a
conforming use.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to be sure
you've withdrawn appeals regarding the
disapproval with regard to sleeping area and
(inaudible).
I'm not hearing you, I'm sorry. They
record this, they transcribe it from the
recording. Sorry.
MR. CUDDY: We're offering that as an
alternative so that before you is the first
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
alternative, which is the house with sleeping
quarters or the garage with sleeping quarters,
and the alternative is to have no sleeping
quarters.
BOARD ASST.: That's on GS1 there's no
sleeping quarters.
MR. CUDDY: That's what GS1 is, that's
right.
BOARD ASST.: There's a loft there, but
no sleeping quarters.
MR. CUDDY: That's correct.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING #6251 - Michael and Dana Meyran
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Sections
280-122A and 280-124, based on the applicant's
request for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's November 6, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval under Zoning Code Interpretation
#5039 (Application by R. Walz), concerning
proposed reconstruction of a dwelling in a
location which will increase in the degree of
nonconformance at less than 35 feet from the
code-required minimum front yard setback, at
280 Youngs Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 1000-141-1-
31."
Sir, state your name for the record,
please?
MR. GORMAN: I'm Bill Gorman, I'm here on
behalf of Michael and Dana Meyran. Just
quickly, they are a young family expanding.
They have a kid, she's pregnant. They want to
build an addition on the house. They have a
burden of having two front yards.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. GORMAN: They can't keep their house
straight without going forward and by forward
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I mean toward the north. They would like to
keep their addition toward the north because
if they went toward the south they would start
encroaching on their garage and it would just
be all jammed up in the back there. They'd
like to go north with the addition, that would
decrease their setback to Youngs Avenue and
that's why we're here.
I should say that,
hear this all the time,
I know that you all
there is a 12-foot
buffer which is lawn that goes from their
property line to the pavement of Youngs
Avenue. So the appearance is that the house
is farther away from Youngs Avenue than what
it actually is. I went and those houses that
I felt comfortable measuring from the street
to the buffer without having them call the
authorities on me and I got a list of houses
in the area and I could show you what I have
just to kind of give you an idea of what the -
MEMBER OLIVA:
setback?
MR. GORMAN:
What is the average
Well, the average setbacks
of the houses that are closest in --
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MEMBER OLIVA:
area.
MR. GORMAN:
my calculator, I
before, but --
I know I drove around the
Well, that's why I brought
knew I should have done that
little color-coded map of distances --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have
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Yes,
nice
MEMBER OLIVA: That's alright.
MR. GORMAN: I'll do it very quickly
right now.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because they aren't really
constricted by being with two front yards.
MR. GORMAN: Exactly.
MEMBER OLIVA: I mean you certainly don't
want to take down the house that's there and
move the whole thing.
MR. GORMAN: The average is 21.5 feet of
the houses that encroach, that go beyond the
35-foot required setback to Youngs Avenue and
that's Youngs Avenue -- I took Youngs Avenue
and Oak Street because that's the yard side.
MEMBER OLIVA: Pine Street.
MEMBER SIMON: Pine.
MR. GORMAN: I'm sorry, Pine. Correct.
Youngs and Pine and I don't know I have a
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is the unfortunate part about this entire plan
is that the proposed porch area is in the area
closest to the property line. You've have to
cut that down a little bit. I know I'm
jumping the gun for everyone, but you know cut
it down. Let's make it look like a porch, but
not really be a porch, okay?
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that we can get
a greater setback.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, 4, 3, I
don't care. You know?
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, that
would make sense to me. I realize there's an
architectural -- I'm stealing this from my
wonderful colleague down there, the architect.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's alright, you just
saved me saying it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Off the
record, I mean on the record it just stands
out and it's something that has to be reduced
a little bit.
MR. GORMAN: Three or four feet you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
thinking?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: Is this something that we
would be to just agree to or do we need to
come back?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We could grant them
whatever, if you would accept that.
BOARD ASST.:
relief.
MR. GORMAN:
It would be alternative
I think I would need to
tentatively agree with a conditional agreement
upon approval from them, but I think that if
you were -- I would agree with that now and
then discuss that with them.
MEMBER OLIVA: The addition is where the
yellow tape is now?
MR. GORMAN: Yes. That porch just sticks
out more than that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's unfortunate that
the proposed porch addition is the
architectural front of the house and it's on
the smallest --
MR. GORMAN: I know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- most nonconforming
setback. I mean the other setback is great.
You know you want to create more presence
along Youngs Avenue, you know, my inclination
would be I would have preferred if it had been
designed so that you slipped the proposed
addition back a bit and created a porch entry
that was on, you know, paralleling a
continuation of the existing setback, which
still would be tapering to a shorter setback.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because the house is
sited at an angle from the road. So it's
certainly -- cause that's very close to the
road and when you put that other addition on
the house is going to look a lot larger. So
it will have a greater visual impact. I drove
up and down and all over and I did not see any
other front yard setbacks that were that
small.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're telling me that
you have an average of about 20-something foot
setback?
MR. GORMAN: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: 21.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm off of actually
surveys that I have gotten -- that I've gotten
that were on record from the Town and also
from my own measurements.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be good to
submit, I think, because we could use some
corroborating justification for such a really,
you know, this is not a preexisting
nonconforming thing that you're renovating.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're proposing new
construction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think that the
key here is that the majority of those smaller
homes, which have the smaller setbacks or the
reduced setbacks, were all built prior to
zoning. It's an older -- the Oak Street and
the other one closest to Youngs --
MEMBER OLIVA: Pine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- are areas where
they were all built prior to zoning and so,
you know, that was it.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I just want to
mention for the record that they have
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
submitted alternative setbacks --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was good,
Bill, thank you.
MR. GORMAN: Actually those are not
alternatives, those are existing.
BOARD ASST.: It's existing, excuse me,
existing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The granting of a
great setback is alternate relief for the
porch.
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what that
is.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
anything.
I'm done.
No, I don't have
MEMBER OLIVA: That garage, is the door
to that garage going to fit a car?
MR. GORMAN: The door?
MEMBER OLIVA: The garage that's standing
there now with the width of the opening you
couldn't get a car in.
MR. GORMAN: You know, I can't say that I
know exactly what they use that for. Maybe
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
they have a little MG or something.
MEMBER OLIVA: My husband and I looked at
it and we said it looks pretty, but I don't
know how you're going to get a car in there.
MR. GORMAN: Right. Yes, I'm not sure
what they use that for.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, okay concerning the
Youngs Avenue side, as I understand this as
the diagram shows, right now there is a 24.1
foot setback from Youngs Avenue, which is
consistent with the rest of the houses along
Youngs Avenue. In the new addition if that
were just simply extended with out the
proposed porch, the setback would go down to
20 feet. So if it were just simply continuing
the same 24.1 setback, then it would be a
simple Walz application without any extension
of the nonconformity on the horizontal side.
MR. GORMAN: Agreed.
MEMBER SIMON: So, therefore, I think we
have -- your burden is to show that you should
get more than a simple Walz and whether -- and
this could be done, of course, by cutting back
on the proposed addition and still building
the porch or not doing the porch, but I'm not
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
impressed so far with the argument for having
reduced setback anywhere on Youngs Avenue side
as a result of the new addition and that's
because that hasn't been built yet, that's
what we're discussing. So I would like to see
an alternative to that, maybe at least some
kind of a compromise that we could all live
with.
MR. GORMAN: Well, if the porch, just so
I'm clear, if the porch -- say the porch were
removed all together and located on the Pine
Street side and I'm just -- I don't know, I
don't have the authority to make that --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, okay.
MR. GORMAN: Say that we do that, is that
going to satisfy your --
MEMBER SIMON: Well, right I think so.
That would be a case of allowing -- the
argument would be it makes sense for
geometrical reasons to allow the 21, I guess
it's 20.8 feet setback --
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: -- on the addition because
it's an extension of the line of the existing
house. I think that case could be made fairly
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persuasively.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: But I'm not sure how much
more than that could be justified, that's what
I'm saying.
MR. GORMAN: Okay. Again, I believe that
we can -- that the Meyrans would agree to
doing something about this porch that would
reduce the amount of --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. GORMAN: Well, then I'll scratch out
the 3-4 feet depth as proposed.
MEMBER SIMON: I guess I'm saying very
(inaudible) I'm not satisfied yet with the --
MR. GORMAN: Yes, I'll submit an
alternate drawing and in writing.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, in writing, yeah.
MR. GORMAN: And it will provide for that
existing corner of the proposed addition that
the building not be any farther than that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 3 feet?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you want 3-4?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
Yeah, oh what do
we're now talking
about two different things, Gerry.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. GORMAN: I'm not sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One discussion was to
cut the proposed porch to make it shallower --
MR. GORMAN: To 3-4 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to like a 3-foot
rather than the proposed 5.7.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael would like
the porch moved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Michael is saying
eliminate the porch and just continue the
addition along the existing wall.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and it will still
decrease the setback because it's not parallel
to the street, but that makes a logical
geometrical --
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: It looks like 20 feet, but
not less than 20 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So give us both of
those and we'll go with that.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's okay.
Unanimous three will prevail.
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MR. GORMAN: Okay, will prevail.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else like
to speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing pending the receipt of
those two alternate plans.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6249 - Michael and Laura Chapman
Living Trust
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-122A and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's revised November 10, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning additions and
alterations to the existing single-family
dwelling, which construction will increase the
degree of nonconformance when located less
than the code required minimum of 35 feet from
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the front yard lot line adjacent to a private
right-of-way and Alpine Avenue, Fishers
Island, NY; CTM Parcel 1000-10-8-7 and 6
(merged as one lot)."
Okay, I'm inviting you to elaborate, we
haven't been able to visit, obviously, so tell
us as much as you can about what we are seeing
here. I'm not good at reading drawings.
MR. ALGREN: Okay, well if you do look at
the survey --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MR. ALGREN: -- we're leaving the
residence exactly where it is.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. ALGREN: There is a little 2 foot by
10 foot section to the front of the house
there's like a little cutback, we're just
going to square it off and then we're going to
take off the roof and make it a Cape Cod style
house, which I think you all have the plans
on.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. ALGREN: Right now the roof is
collapsing, it's leaking. One part of the
house has like a 6-foot ceiling height. This
is an old cottage that's probably like about
110 years old. The family has been in this
house for probably 50-60 years. It used to be
the Abodanza's house. So what they want to do
is just make it so they can use the house,
really just bring it up to the 21st Century.
It is a nonconforming lot, that's why
we're here before you today cause we do want
to square off that corner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And nonconforming
setbacks.
MR. ALGREN:
yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
And nonconforming setbacks,
The question I have
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is you are aware -- well, you're not aware
because you don't come before us too often,
that's not a sarcastic statement, but, in your
expert opinion, this foundation will support
this second story?
MR. ALGREN: Yes, absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the walls of
the first story will support the second story?
MR. ALGREN: Yes, I believe we're going
to sister up all new beams to the existing
studs just to reinforce everything cause this
house is an old house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to warn
you that if you decide to take this first
story down, okay, there is a great possibility
that you will be back here.
MR. ALGREN: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are aware of
that?
MR.
yes.
ALGREN: I am aware of that, sir,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. ALGREN: We're trying to keep the
costs down. This is, you know --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
just telling you as one person to another
that's what's going to happen.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, procedurally, you may
have to apply all over again.
MR. ALGREN: I do have Bob (inaudible)
that lives next door, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and he's told
you that?
MR. ALGREN: Yes. I see Bob all the
time. As I said, they just want to bring this
building up to code cause everything is
sagging right now. There's a leak in the
kitchen. This is one of those old cottages
that were built 100 years ago and as far as I
know nobody has spoken out against it. I did
send out all the letters and I did speak with
Bob (Inaudible) and he was fine with it. He
is the direct next door neighbor.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
realize that the property
distance from the edge of
I look at this and I
line is some
the pavement, but
what I'm not sure about is what will be the
affect of the setback from the property line,
which is going to be more than 2.2 feet or
less than 2.2 feet or what?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. ALGREN: To the property line what
we're proposing to build on is really going to
go 6 inches -- cause it is on an angle and
that one corner that they want to propose just
to square up the house so it's going to make
it 6 inches closer to Alpine Avenue.
MEMBER SIMON: It's only during that
little dogleg, that little dogleg is where the
extension is going to go?
MR. ALGREN: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. ALGREN: Yes, the existing, the rest
of the structure wouldn't leave the footprint
and we don't have to do this, it would just be
nice to square the house off at that corner
cause you do have a picture there, I believe,
on the plans.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The little dotted
lines are the overhang?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. ALGREN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you're showing us.
MR. ALGREN: Right, that's the overhang
that the architect.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
(Inaudible) setback
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
anyway.
MR. ALGREN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Let
them digest.
MEMBER SIMON: Well the idea is that this
grossly nonconforming setback on that side is
being retained except for that tiny bit?
MR. ALGREN: That is correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. That's -
- I have no further questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you know, the
drawings are clear but, of course, there's a
couple of pictures, but actually without
really seeing the site, you know, it's -- we
have photographs of it. It's a tiny little
cottage, really nice renovations are being
proposed, which could wind up a demo.
MR. ALGREN: Well, we got -- originally
they were going to teardown this house and
move it two years ago, but the cost and the
way the economy is they revised their
decision. So really we just want to work with
what we have.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Well it looks like it's
going to be a wonderful improvement. I mean
as long as you're aware of the risks that this
(inaudible) cottage you might have nothing to
work with.
MR. ALGREN: Yes, I do this a lot. I
restore these old houses.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You probably know very
well then.
MR. ALGREN: Yeah, you just take your
time and be careful with it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to tell
you that we had one in New Suffolk which is 3-
4 miles from here, 5 miles from here, where
they were sistering up things and the Town
indicated to them that they went a little too
far. So you need just to
contact with the Building
whole situation.
keep in constant
Department on this
MR. ALGREN: Okay, well as I said Bob
(Inaudible) is right there and I've been in
touch with him and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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MR. ALGREN: -- you know, he knows these
houses.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're just trying
to give you all the pitfalls that's all.
MR. ALGREN: Yes, I appreciate that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You certainly
wouldn't bring anybody with you that would
object to this, would you?
MR. ALGREN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody like to
speak in favor of it?
Okay, so there isn't anybody else who
would like to speak?
Okay, hearing that, seeing that I'll make
a motion closing the hearing, reserving
decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING %6240 - Phyllis Kaufer
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
your name again,
MR. KAUFER:
Point Road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to tell us?
MR. KAUFER: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to tell us?
MR. KAUFER:
by 48 --
BOARD ASST.:
MR. KAUFER:
Mr. Kaufer?
Stewart Kaufer, 3175 Nassau
What would you like
What would you like
I would like to ask for 23
I'm sorry?
23 by 48, which would make
it 1104 square feet, which would make it 47
percent over the 750.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1140 square feet.
MR. KAUFER: No, 1104 square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, I'm
sorry.
MEMBER SIMON: What are the numbers
again?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. FJ~UFER: 1104 square feet --
MEMBER SIMON: The dimensions?
MR. KAUFER: The dimensions are 23 by 48,
which comes out to 47 percent over -- under
the -- above the 750 and I'm reducing 354
square feet from the original request.
MR. WILLIAMS: Four cars.
MEMBER OLIVA: Four cars?
MR. KAUFER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Same height?
MR. KAUFER: Same height.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll accept
that as alternate relief and we will get back
to you.
MR. KAUFER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I appreciate it.
MR. KAUFER: Have a nice day.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Have a lovely
afternoon. Sorry to hold you up so long.
I will --
BOARD ASST.: The Board will make a
decision around the 5th of March, it's a public
meeting. You're welcome to sit and listen if
you'd like, we're in the other building, or
call the next day.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're in the second
story of the North Fork Bank building.
MR. KAUFER: In the bank.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Uh, Capital One.
BOARD ASST.: If the Board approves it
they may have conditions on it to follow-up
with final plans and so on, but we don't know
yet what their decision is going to be.
MR. KAUFER: Thank you very much.
BOARD ASST.: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make a motion
closing the hearing pending the information
that we received.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING #6221 - Lloyd Kaplan
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a
carryover. Michael, I'm going to ask this
fine gentleman for his name and who he
represents and then you can grill him.
MEMBER SIMON: He can tell me what he
wants to (inaudible).
MR. BARON: Shawn Baron for the applicant
Lloyd Kaplan.
BOARD ASST.: You just need to speak a
little louder.
MR. BARON: That's okay. Shawn Baron,
Suffolk Environmental Consulting for the
applicant, Lloyd Kaplan.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. BARON: We took your advice at the
close of the last hearing in December and
considered some alternatives and resubmitted a
site plan that has the pool rotated 90
degrees. It's now in what we believe is a
conforming location in terms of the street
setback, although I believe we still need some
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
relief from the side yard setback and the lot
coverage. I should point out that the lot
coverage has reduced to 22.8 percent. I think
the previous lot coverage that was provided by
the surveyor was an error. The patio is going
to be at grade so I don't believe that would
count towards the lot coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct.
MR. BARON: So we're looking for 2.8
percent relief from the lot coverage and I
believe 5 feet from the side yard setback.
This seems to be a nicer orientation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This says 10 feet.
MR. BARON: Right. We need 5 feet relief
with 15-foot side yard setback?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BARON: No?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Not for a pool.
Oh.
Do we need it?
BOARD ASST.: No, there's nothing --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think so.
MR. BARON: I had Bruce feed me the wrong
information then.
MEMBER SIMON: There was no disapproval
in terms of the setback, side setbacks.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: They previously had a
15-foot side setback.
MR. BARON: Right, so it didn't need
relief previously.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the thing to do you
need a new Notice of Disapproval, right? For
the correct lot coverage and a conforming
front yard setback now and you have to check
with them to see if that 10-foot is fine or if
you need a variance for that.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, I guess I disagree.
He's applied to us for a variance for lot
coverage. In response to that he has
relocated the pool and improved the lot
coverage besides. Now the fact that the side
setback isn't mentioned anywhere and we're not
granting a variance for it seems that that
doesn't mean that he has to go back to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, Michael, here.
MEMBER SIMON:
thing?
BOARD ASST.:
Am I looking at the wrong
The front yard setback is
being removed from the Disapproval now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Originally, he needed a
front yard setback variance. He now no longer
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
does. He had a 15-foot side yard for the pool
MEMBER SIMON: That's for the pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- he now has a 10, so
we don't know if he needs relief.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but where does it
say --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the old notice,
he needs a new one.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, a new one.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
needs a new one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
MEMBER SIMON: This
from last time.
He hasn't got one. He
he doesn't.
is the one we went
MEMBER DINIZIO: He will get one if he
doesn't -- he will be denied a building permit
if he doesn't meet the side yard. He doesn't
need a new Notice of Disapproval. He's
responding to our request to turn that pool
around.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct, except
that the Notice doesn't have the correct lot
coverage on it and --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so I --
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ZBA Town of Southold
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February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO:
because of the -- because
request.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
That is -- that is
he changed on our
the patio is the
same, Jim. He changed the orientation to have
a conforming front yard setback, which was not
the case before, but the lot coverage was
including the calculation of a patio area,
which is at grade and it was that way to begin
with. So it was actually calculated
incorrectly on the original Notice of
Disapproval.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I see the original
Notice of Disapproval?
MR. BARON: I believe that to be the
case.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it's a double
whammy. The new Notice of Disapproval would
read a smaller lot coverage and it would read
nothing about the front yard since it's
conforming.
MR. BARON: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
At 40 feet.
(Inaudible) regarding the setback in the side
yard? We don't know if they are going to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
determine it to be 10
the house.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
or 15, okay, based upon
May I comment?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you're asking
him too much. If he doesn't meet the Code
he'll be back before us.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But why let him do
that though?
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's his prerogative to
do that not ours. We don't have to require
him to go get a new Notice of Disapproval, if
what he's asking us for is less than what's on
that Notice of Disapproval.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So in other words
you want him to (inaudible) if that's the
case.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's his peril not
ours.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Does
everybody agree with that?
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, we're not
enforcers. We're just granters of variances.
BOARD ASST.: So what are you proposing,
Gerry?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not proposing
anything, I'm listening to what Jim said.
BOARD ASST.: Are you going to waive the
requirement for a new Notice of Disapproval,
is that --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Why are we requiring a
new Notice of Disapproval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only because we
didn't know if the Building Department would
determine the side yard to be conforming or
not.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So this is --
MEMBER SIMON: The side yard is
conforming and -- no, the side yard -- okay,
here's the story. I got it. We don't need to
ask for a revised Notice of Disapproval
because of the error with regard to the lot
coverage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: We can put that straight
in the report.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: The issue is in response
to our concerns about lot coverage we
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
generated a nonconformity with regard to side
setback. That could be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It wasn't lot coverage,
it was rotating the pool to create a bigger
front yard setback.
MEMBER SIMON: No. It was not. It
doesn't say anything
on this. (Inaudible
not there.
Let me finish.
it. Okay, so this
about front yard setback
front yard setback is
Then you can respond to
side yard setback did not
occur before but now it does of your moving
the pool in response to our suggestion.
MR. BARON: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: So the consequent need for
the variance, as a result of your rotating the
pool, is something that we can grant and it
doesn't have to have been in a Notice of
Disapproval in an application that had no need
for a side setback. We are -- and it's
almost, by the way, we're also responding to
in the process of dealing with the lot
coverage problem and the overall (inaudible)
we're rotating the pool, which doesn't change
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
lot coverage. We can correct that in our
decision.
BOARD ASST.: Is there a Code here, we
can check that in the code?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have a
Code.
BOARD ASST.: Anybody have a copy of that
provision? That's why it helps you with the
side yard.
MEMBER SIMON:
thinking of?
BOARD ASST.:
and it's 10 now.
be sure --
What provision are you
The side yard was 15 before
We want to check the Code to
MEMBER SIMON: Do we need a variance so
that we can make a suggestion to him for an
alternative? Perhaps you do. If he makes
this as an alternative then he has to go to
the Building Department to get a revised
Notice of Disapproval, otherwise, it's simply
a consequence of our action.
BOARD ASST.: It's up to the Board, it's
up to the Board if they want to waive it, they
can waive it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. I think -- I
certainly think we can waive it.
BOARD ASST.: Well, it's up to the Board.
MR. BARON: Well as Mr. Dinizio pointed
out my pitfall would then be if Mr.
(inaudible) or the Building Department does
determine that I need side yard relief then --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then you've have to come
back.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MR. BARON: -- that's a new application,
new posting and --
BOARD ASST.: We'll freeze it.
MR. BARON: Mr. Anderson is of the belief
that 15 foot is the setback for an accessory
structure. I guess what you guys are thinking
is perhaps the 10-foot side yard with the
principle structure would grandfather a 10-
foot side yard setback?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
BOARD ASST.: That's the question.
Whether the Building Department would say
that, I don't know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
this, why don't we let him to go
Department to just determine it?
just
now.
back.
much.
So why don't we do
the Building
MEMBER WEISMAN: I know.
MR. BARON: It would be easier for me to
determine that. I'll go run down there
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Go over and you can come
MR. BARON: Uh, great. Thank you very
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible)
hearing,
hearings.
BOARD ASST.:
other day so that
but that's -- there's only three more
That's why I called you the
MR. BARON: Okay, if that's okay with the
Board then I'd love to do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
Okay, I need a resolution to adjourn the
hearing for a little while, I'm going to say
in hour.
BOARD ASST.: A half hour.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. BARON:
can.
BOARD ASST.:
1:40.
I'll be back as soon as I
Before an hour just -- it's
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're out of here at
2:15 or 2:30 if we're on time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we'll make
it a half hour.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, we could slip you
right in (inaudible).
MR. BARON: Thank you very much. I'll be
back shortly.
BOARD ASST.: We have to second the
motion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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179
ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6215 - Hope Schneider
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a carryover,
we don't need to read it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to just
quickly review what the original variances
were for the record, and then we'll go and see
what you submitted and axonometric and we'll
see where you are at this point.
So it was a reconstruction of an existing
one and a half story dwelling raising the
existing first floor per FEMA, correct me if
I'm wrong, and then enlarging and adding on a
second story with new decks. The variances
were 23-foot rear yard setback, code requiring
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
35. Side yard setback of 6.8 feet and 18.6
foot combined whereas 10 and 25 is required.
Bulkhead setback 12 feet +/- this is for a new
deck, which will be a raised deck, code is 75
coverage proposed at 29.5 percent,
is maximum and the existing is
feet. Lot
20 percent
30.9.
Let's
see, it's triggering Walz also with
the deck and the two story construction on
this preexisting nonconforming series of
setbacks. I think that pretty well covers it.
MS. MESIANO: Okay, I just want to
confirm regarding the lot coverage because I
don't recall it being that great a difference.
Let me just check.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what the
Notice of Disapproval says.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Notice says proposed
29.5. I think the existing is 30.9 though.
So --
MS. MESIANO: Whatever we're proposing is
less than --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: It says 29.5 on the survey.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: So in order to
understand the elevational changes as being
proposed, we requested and received a
axonometric drawing, (inaudible) drawing
showing the three-dimensional rather than a
physical model of what the house's massing
will look like and I didn't bring my
{inaudible) with me, but the Board know --
well the deck in the back if you go to the far
right of the drawing and look at the raised
deck.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The floor of the raised
decking will be 5-1/2 feet above grade.
MS. MESIANO: And that's --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know what I'm
referring to in that corner on the far right
of the drawing?
MS. MESIANO: That would be the south --
that would be the southeast corner. I'm
facing north so I (inaudible).
one.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe if I point, that
Can you all see what I'm talking about
there?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: It's to the left? No, to
the right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To the far right of the
drawing, if you're looking at the drawing.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And this corner here of
the retaining wall will be 2.6 feet above
grade, this front corner here.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 2.6 feet elevation.
MS. MESIANO: Okay and if I might add
something to that, when you spoke of the
elevation or the height of the raised deck in
the back --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh?
MS. MESIANO: -- that is being driven by
compliance to FEMA to raise the first floor
elevation of the house. This is not just an
arbitrary --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How is that -- how
much was that raised, Cathy?
MS. MESIANO: 3 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, this retaining
wall that will be right along the road is a 4-
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
foot elevation and the porch, the front porch
is 3.5 feet above grade.
MEMBER SIMON: The yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Above the ground that's
raised.
MS. MESIANO: The grade, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The ground is raised,
there's a septic system under there.
MS. MESIANO: Right and if I might add
also all of the things that are proposed are
proposed in such a manner so as to be in
compliance with Health Department regulations
and the FEMA regulations. Given our druthers,
we would have just improved what was there at
the grade and not gone to the expense and work
of raising the house, but FEMA requires that
anything more than a 50 percent improvement
and the way the formula works out just about
anything in this house is going to equate to
more than 50 percent. So everything being
done to improve the house is being done
because it's required under FEMA and the
Health Department.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Now, if you want me to expand as far as
the septic system is concerned, it's necessary
that the new -- wait a minute?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
point to before, Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Yeah. What did you
On the --
MS. MESIANO: If I can help you, it's
this --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to before?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Here,
What did you point
over.
I'll bring it
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean I just measured
it at home with my (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm referring to
this side. You said 2.5 feet above.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This retaining wall is
2.5 feet, but it's 4 foot at the street.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's slopes backwards.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: This sits 3.5 feet
above the ground, back here it's 5.5 feet with
the bulkhead being over that way.
MS. MESIANO: If I can correct you as
well, there really isn't
property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. MESIANO: There's
there's some wood --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
bulkhead.
MS.
edging.
a bulkhead on this
it's riprap.
It's riprap.
some riprap and
Yeah, it's really not a
MESIANO: Yeah, it's just some wood
There's no bulkhead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At least there's
some form of retaining wall as opposed to
none.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, it's a stable
shoreline.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. You were
going to say something about FEMA.
MS. MESIANO: No, I was talking about the
Health Department.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, excuse me,
right.
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MS. MESIANO: The Health Department
regulations that are driving the situation in
the front yard are that the bottom of the
cesspools must maintain a 3-foot distance
between the bottom of the cesspools and the
ground water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MS. MESIANO: And when you have a shallow
groundwater condition as you see in here and
you'll see on the survey with the cesspools.
The septic systems must be raised and filled.
It's the fill is placed in such a way that you
have a slope greater than 5 percent, then
you're required by the Health Department to
contain the material within a concrete
retaining structure. So the retaining wall
again is due to Health Department requirements
not just an arbitrary, gee, I think I'd like
it that way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but the main problem that I have with the
retaining wall is that retaining wall just
southeast of the steps --
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- okay that goes
from whatever the height is there, Leslie just
gave it to me as Zero.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a problem
with the setbacks of 6.6 feet on that side and
I have a problem with that retaining wall.
You need to gain access front to back with
this house for fire and emergency purposes.
Okay?
MS. MESIANO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's one. Number
two, 6 feet 6 inches just isn't enough.
MS. MESIANO: But it's already there.
We're not asking for anything new.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but you have a chimney obstructing it.
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which probably
could be relocated, alright, and there's a
possibility I was thinking originally of
asking you to take the existing or the
proposed steps and incorporating them into so
that once you got past that 6 foot 6 you had
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
more room when you went toward the water.
Okay?
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Incorporating those
into the deck, thereby creating a staging area
in between the steps or the deck, so that if
you needed to put a ladder up, you could do so
on that side of the house.
MS. MESIANO: Okay. We had -- you had
had questions about that at our previous
hearing and Mr. Fischetti, I believe, had sent
you a letter. Do you have a letter in your
file dated February l0th to the Board from
Joseph Fischetti addressing these items?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have one from
January 22nd from R. Wade Johnson Design.
MS. MESIANO: No, February 10.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I don't think
SO.
MS. MESIANO: Okay, I'll give you my
copy. I have one here. Would you want me to
read it for the record?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is to me, "An
inspection of the existing foundation footings
was completed by excavating the existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
foundation walls in two places to uncover the
footing. The footing in the easterly areas is
8 by 16 in concrete footings with concrete
block walls as the foundation walls. I
certify that the (inaudible) footings support
the two-story home under normal loading
conditions.
"A review of the Fundamentals of Fire
Fighter Skills, which endorsed both the
International Association of Chiefs,
(Inaudible) states that fire ladders should be
placed approximately 75 degrees to vertical.
Using this guideline we have a 6.8 foot side
yard and a distance of the edge of the roof is
24 feet to the height of the point in the
existing side of the property. If the ladder
is placed 6 inches from the side yard, we have
6.3 feet and a height of 24 feet to ascertain
and 3.8 is 75.4 degrees. The ladder is placed
at the edge of the property at 6.8 feet, the
angle of the ladder becomes 74.14 degrees.
The Fire Department should have no problem
placing a ladder on the side of the proposed
structure and still keeping within the
recommendations of the firematic guidelines."
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
That was very helpful. Alright, you
know, we'll enter that into the record. The
only problem that we have is that it's
doubtful that we're going to use a ladder like
that anymore. It's probably, and I'm not
speaking for Southold Fire Department, we have
-- they have a Ladder Truck and Mattituck has
a Ladder Truck, okay. More than likely,
what's going to be used here is a ladder
truck, okay?
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I'm trying to
do is gain as much distance, okay, and that's
my concern, okay.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's always
been my concern.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But interestingly
enough in a hearing that we had on Horton
Avenue, actually, it's down on the Sound
overlooking the Sound. The issue of 5.8 feet
came up and so that issue of reviewing the
standards is very important and I
that. That was very nice of you,
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appreciate
but we still
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
need to gain access to that entire side yard,
okay?
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Without the ability
to climb a wall, okay?
MS. MESIANO: Well, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can the wall -- can
the wall be brought back to the edge of the
house or can it be brought back to the
integral part of the chimney?
MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry, I'm having
trouble hearing cause of the voices in the
back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
yeah.
MS. MESIANO: What I
You have to --
was going to suggest
that may help to mitigate some of your
concerns would be elimination of the chimney
on the exterior of the house because it's been
a saga. The house froze, the chimney froze,
all the pipes burst, so now she has to put in
a completely new heating system. So we could
eliminate the projection of the chimney and
build that into the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The existing
structure.
MS. MESIANO: -- inside the structure
eliminating that projection.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would help.
MS. MESIANO: The deck, everything we've
done with the deck is equal to or less than
what was there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: I realize we can only look
at what's on our property, but we do have a
little bit of an unusual circumstance in that
the property immediately to the south of this
property is owned by Suffolk County and
appears to be a drainage easement of some sort
and it's overgrown. It's just brush.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MS. MESIANO: I believe if there were an
emergency situation I don't think the Fire
Department would stand on ceremony and say,
oh, we can't walk over there. I know that's
not a technical answer, but from a practical
perspective there's not a piece of private
property upon which someone's private
residence is sitting. It's a piece of County
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
owned land that if push came to shove you do
what you have to do in an emergency.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will look at that
again.
MS. MESIANO: And I think if we could
eliminate the projection of the chimney that
would give you a clear access along the side.
Now, as far as moving that walkway back, we're
retaining the wall at the highest point. The
only other thing I could see happening would
be to try to eliminate the wall and vegetate a
gradual slope in ivy or some kind of a
groundcover.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine.
MS. MESIANO: So that there's not -- so
that there's not a step. That's the only
other solution I could find would be to just
vegetate it in something that was perennial,
an evergreen, that would hold the slope. I
mean it's not a sharp slope. It's not steep,
it's not high. Perhaps that would solve that
problem if you can --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to tell
you our most recent acquisition in Mattituck,
our ladder truck, cost $1 Million, okay?
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MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And it doesn't have
the ability to climb walls.
MS. MESIANO: For $1 Million it should be
able to fly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It does not climb
walls. It has to remain, you know, in a
normal situation, so -- and I don't mean it
can't climb a slope, it can climb a small
slope.
MS. MESIANO: Right, okay. But in this
situation I could not imagine a scenario where
you would need to get behind the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Depending on which
way the wind was blowing.
You can't eliminate that retaining wall?
MR. FISCHETTI: I have a problem if
you're going to --
BOARD ASST.: Just for the record, Joe
Fischetti speaking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sorry.
BOARD ASST.: That's alright, I got it.
Go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead, Joe.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. FISCHETTI: I'm sorry. We designed
that wall and actually we will probably have
to -- the Health Department requires that wall
to be 10 feet from any of the structures.
They aren't 10 feet there. Some of them are 5
feet because I can't make them. So I'm going
to have to go to the Board of Review and get
relief from the Health
these.
Now, the question
Department on even
I have is we might be
able to, if they can climb a slope, might be
able to put the wall there and ramp it. I
have no problem with doing that from that
gravel driveway is ramp it. I don't have my
final -- do you have a copy of the final,
didn't bring it, do you have a copy of the
final sanitary design? How high is that wall
from the gravel driveway? I have the
possibility of ramping that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine, any
way you can provide access is fine.
MR. FISCHETTI: I'll provide you access
that way, I have no problem. The Health
Department wants this from their side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
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MR. FISCHETTI: Now, from the other side
if you want access from one way if -- let me
look that over and I will get back to you and
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: I think it's only a
couple of feet there. So if we can grade that
up we might be able to do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's great.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, but I can't
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry to
monopolize the hearing, ladies and gentleman.
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
solution.
thank you.
That's a very fair
MS. MESIANO: I think that Ms. Schneider
would like to (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have one more
question to ask and then we'll -- I'll turn it
back and that is these windows on the south
side of the house, are those attic windows or
are those second story windows?
MS. MESIANO: They're second story.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Second story, okay.
Thank you.
MS. MESIANO: I believe the overall
height of the house is 28 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. MESIANO: So it's strictly second
story, there's not adequate --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MS. MESIANO: If we might address some
practical issues, Ms. Schneider and her family
are really very distressed. The roof is bad
and they can't repair the roof because we're
in the throws of this. She's spent already
$1200.00 on tarps trying to protect the house.
This is the condition of the house now because
we can't keep the water out. Inside the
bedrooms the walls are collapsing and the
molding (inaudible). We have a situation
within the last week or so, two weeks where
despite the fact that she has an alarm system
hooked up to a central station, etc, etc,
there was a freeze, the alarm system didn't
work as it was supposed to. No one was
notified, the whole place froze, the furnace
is shot, all the piping is shot, the water
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
pump is shot. So they're really in a bind
here. They had hoped to be able to get this
done to be able to rent it for the summer
because the extra expenses that have been
racking up have caused them to have to
consider renting it for the summer rather than
using it.
So I would ask this Board, I mean, we've
tried to give you everything you needed to
make a decision. We really have no other
alternatives. We've kept this to a minimum.
The cost of raising the house and fixing
what's there and raising the house, fixing
what's there and adding the upper story is not
a significant difference because the roof has
to be torn off the raising of the house has to
be done. We're not creating more bedrooms.
Were not creating higher occupancy, we're
improving everything as far as drainage and
upgraded compliance. I'll take back the word
compliant, we still have to get through the
Health Department, but we're pretty confident
that the parameters that we're able to provide
are something that the Health Department can
approve. It's as great a distance as we can
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
provide. It's certainly much greater than
what's there now and we simply are asking the
Board for as timely a decision as we can get
because the house is deteriorating rapidly and
it's really causing a financial burden.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. I
think you have to look at it too ways and that
is you have reduced the overall lot coverage
on the new plan. This is a democratic Board,
it works on three votes. Let's assume that
the maximum that
be 27 percent.
MS. MESIANO:
the Board would grant would
Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have a porch
and a deck that would be the area to take it
from.
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
The hypothetical
question is will you accept alternate relief
if we can't come to 29.5?
MS. MESIANO: I'd rather not because
we've created a design that is minimal. I
mean if we had to cut off the front porch,
fine, we don't have a front porch to enjoy.
If that's where we have to come up with some
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
of the square footage, I suppose that's what
we're going to do because we don't want to
have a denial and have to go through an
Article 78 and so on. I tend to be more, you
know, I have a -- I realize the perspective
from which you view this and, unfortunately,
my perspective is at 180 degrees off because I
have this tendency to look at
in the grand scheme of things
You know, is it going to save
things and say
does it matter?
the world,
improve the quality of someone's life, is it
going to help anybody else by doing this?
I don't think, given all the parameters,
what she's asking for is unreasonable because
it's tasteful, it's minimal, we've cut it back
from the water as far as we can. It's raised
so it's not as though it's on the ground and
creating a problem for the wetlands. If
that's -- if that's the best we can do, that's
the best we can do.
BOARD ASST.: I think procedurally
they're asking, that's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we're only
asking procedurally.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: You're not bound by it. It
just means procedurally we save you the
trouble of reapplying and doing something
else.
MS. MESIANO: Yes. Yes, because we're --
not to be redundant, but I just got done
begging for a timely decision so we certainly
don't want to have to reapply and go through
another six months because there'll be a pile
BOARD ASST.: Yes. Would you accept
alternative relief for procedural reasons or
you won't?
MS. MESIANO: If that's the best we can
do, we'll have to accept it because we can't
afford to let the house sit any longer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MEMBER SIMON: Let's put it another way.
We don't know what's going to happen. There's
a possibility it would be approved as is, that
hasn't been ruled out.
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: There's a chance that
without alternate relief we would have to turn
it down.
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MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: There would be a cost to
you if you won't, it's your decision. If you
want to take a risk that you're going to get
it through as is or would you be willing --
would you rather take us to court than
consider alternate relief?
MS. MESIANO: I think I already answered
that question in that we don't want to waste
the time or the effort or the money in --
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. MESIANO:
2 percent.
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay.
-- filing an Article 78 for
Okay.
(Inaudible).
No, what I'm just saying
is we're not forcing you to do anything.
MS. MESIANO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: We're telling you what the
risk is and --
MS. MESIANO: From a practical
perspective and from a calculated risk
perspective, yes --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MS. MESIANO: -- we would be willing to
accept some form of reasonable alternate
relief, but I just ask the Board to look at it
from the overall perspective and what is the
harm the way we proposed it. We're trying to
get living space without being offensive.
Nothing is cheap so we're trying to maximize
our investment.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: But, the short answer to
the question is yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, if you change your
mind and it gets turned down and we offer
alternative relief, you could refuse both.
that.
MS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. MESIANO:
Um-hmm.
You could still sue us.
I know. I prefer not to do
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so would we.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, it's not my -- you
know, despite what others may say it's not my
preferred method of doing things. I would
rather conciliate and negotiate and compromise
if we can come to something.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
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MS. MESIANO: I think that we've given up
the exterior chimney in order to gain a better
access to the back from the south side. Mr.
Fischetti will work on the design at the head
of the driveway to eliminate the wall and
provide some kind of a ramp to mitigate the
problem Mr. Goehringer spoke about. Se I
think we've displayed a spirit of cooperation
to give the Board what it needs in order to
comfortably make a decision the end result of
which would be a safe structure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: And you know health, safety
and public welfare I think is the underlying
focus in all of these matters and again that
brings me back to my situation on the porch.
Whether the porch is as big as it is or
smaller than it is, does it have an impact on
health, safety or public welfare and I won't
even answer that question, I'll just throw it
out there because I don't think it's going to
give you more than we've already given you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. If you
don't have --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's a reasonable
question only in the following sense that in
so far as that there's a fairly substantial
list of variances required --
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm, um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to implement what
you're proposing, anything that we can do to
diminish the num~oer and/or degree of those
nonconformities is what we're looking to try
to do --
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- while allowing the
property owner, the applicant, to get what is
essentially a new house.
MS. MESIANO: Half a new house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, as I understand
it, it's structurally sound enough on the
first floor to --
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
will
MEMBER WEISMAN:
carry the loads
MS. MESIANO: Yes,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
without demolition.
-- that you're sure it
for the second story so
we made sure.
-- that you can renovate
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MS. MESIANO: Right, we made sure that
before we went through the Planning process.
MEMBER SIMON: I have one question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, cause it's
actually noted as a reconstruction of the
existing dwelling, not a demo, but neither is
it considered new construction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cathy -- just let
me ask this question, Michael, I'll be right
with you. What is the existing square footage
and what is the proposed square footage again,
so we have it for the record?
MS. MESIANO: I'm just looking on the
plans, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You don't have to
give it to us today, you know, you can fax it
over.
MS. MESIANO: I know I have it in my
notes, if you'll just bear with me for just a
moment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, take your
time.
MS. MESIANO: Okay, we have a 30 by 32
irregular frame dwelling and our second story
will be essentially that same dimension.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: So if 30 by 32 is 900 give
or take, and we'll be adding that amount of
space, of course, consider that some of it is
not livable area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Very good,
thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Just one question purely
for information not a suggestion or anything
like that --
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: Is -- are there strong
reason why you feel that the decrease in lot
coverage could not be done by reducing the
size of the raised deck?
MS. MESIANO: Because that's the only
yard they have to enjoy on this property. The
area beyond the raised deck, I mean there's a
little bit of grassy area beyond it, but
really it's just -- it's the only outdoor
living space that there is that's usable.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. MESIANO: Because the house is raised
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
up so high it's impractical to say okay we'll
put a picnic table down there under a tree and
be going down five --
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not saying getting rid
of the deck, but --
MS. MESIANO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- I mean the deck as
narrow as you could have it.
MS. MESIANO: From a practical
perspective, I would say probably yes, because
it's -- once it's too small you can't put a
table that you could comfortably place
furniture, move around comfortably. It's been
cut back already.
MEMBER SIMON:
question.
MS. MESIANO:
Okay, that answers my
If we have to give up
something, I'd rather give up the front porch
because that diminishes less the functional
aspect of the structure than giving up the
deck. You know, that it's 5.5 feet off the
ground I think mitigates some of the proximity
to the wetland because you not only have a
horizontal plane, but you also have the
vertical plane.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does the Board have
any other questions of Ms. Mesiano?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just for the record, I
don't have any proposed floor plans. We have
elevations and plans of existing and
elevations and site plans for proposed, but I
don't have a copy of --
MS. MESIANO: It wasn't requested by
anyone.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I'm just making --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need that for
the record.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I mean it would be
helpful to have a copy.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I mean, I thought I
did submit it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
BOARD ASST.: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would just be
helpful.
BOARD ASST.: For the record I want to
just mention page AO, A2, A3, EF1.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for the
most recent plan, it was very helpful to
understand the problem.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MS. MESIANO: You're welcome. Okay and
just as a matter of information we started --
you had asked for a scale model. Did you find
that this drawing was adequate to give you the
perspective that you were having trouble
envisioning?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Very helpful.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It was very helpful
along with Mr. Fischetti's letter.
MS. MESIANO: Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very interesting
letter. It's almost as interesting as the
weighting of compacted soil in Mattituck on
the swimming pool as opposed to the water in
the swimming pool. It ranks definitely with
that, Mr. Fischetti, thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak regarding this hearing?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing this hearing and reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6187 and #6232 -
Ryan and Jennifer Stork
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're just
going to open Stork carryover from 12/4/08.
MR. FITZGERALD: Shall I do it here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine. We
haven't had great luck today, but you can give
it a shot.
MR. FITZGERALD: Is this better?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It seems to be.
MR. FITZGERALD: Is it going in the
machine?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. FITZGERALD: We've been here before.
Based on the comments from our
would like to address first of
dwelling argument.
last meeting I
all the second
The guest house we're proposing does not
meet either the definition of a dwelling,
single-family, as it appears in 280-4 or the
definition of a dwelling unit, to which the
previous definition occurs. A dwelling unit
is defined in part as having a minimum living
area of at least 850 square feet containing
complete housekeeping facilities. 280-4 does,
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
in fact, include a definition for a guest
unit, which is a bedroom/sleeping
accommodation for transient guests, which may
or may not include bedroom facilities and
shall be occupied by no more than two adult
persons and be at least 80 square feet in
area, which probably was intended by the
framers to apply to commercial facilities, but
they forgot to say so.
Our proposal is less than 850 square feet
and does not include complete housekeeping
facilities since no cooking facilities are
proposed. The Chief Building Inspector, in
response to a direct question from me, stated
that if the ZBA found their second dwelling
argument to be invalid the Building Department
would then disapprove the proposal on the
basis of the guest house is not an approved
use. I wasn't aware that the Building
Department could take two separate shots at a
project, but aside from their apparent desire
to disapprove this proposal for one reason or
another the "not an approved use" argument is
equally invalid.
If it's the desire of the Town to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
prohibit guest houses, the Code should say so
clearly and specifically. The Code as it
stands at this time does not prohibit a
structure to be used for that purpose nor does
it define approved use or include a complete
listing of such uses.
With regard to the not an approved use
argument, the Code in 280-17 refers to the R-
40 District specifying that permitted uses are
the same as in 280-13A and we go through the
hierarchy of uses in different districts and
finally get to in 280-15 it says the first
accessory use is "any customary structure or
uses which are customarily incidental to the
principle use except those prohibited by this
chapter." The guest house is certainly a
customary structure, at least in this country,
and/or a use incidental to the principle use
of the property, a single- family dwelling and
it's not permitted by 280-111. It's feared
that the Chief Building Inspector would
disapprove this proposal because a guest house
is not specifically and individually
identified in the Code as an approved use.
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Although any customary structure phrase should
certainly include the current proposal.
We should perhaps consider the other
customary structures or uses which are not
specifically identified in connection with the
R-40 district and which probably would be and
may already have been approved by the Building
Department. For instance an arbor, a
boathouse, a cabana, a dog house, a gazebo, a
kennel, a mechanical utility shed, a pergola,
pool house, potting shed, private artist
studio, private
shed, a trellis,
these buildings
library, private observatory,
or a wood shed. None of
or structures are specifically
named as being permitted in the R-40 District.
At least under some circumstances each would
require the issuance of a building permit and
we suggest that they could all be approvable
without a variance provided they comply with
the general requirements for accessory
structures.
Last but not least we
write new Code" argument.
this
list.
have the ~'we can't
At our last meeting
topic worked its way to the top of the
We are certainly not suggesting that
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
you can or should write new Code and it's not
clear why several Board members felt that
would be necessary or would result in some way
from the granting of a variance for this
project. We're asking at the very least that
you find that a significant reason for the
Building Department disapproval that the
accessory structure in question is "a second
dwelling" is invalid and that you then act
accordingly with regard to our appeal
concerning the setback issues. The Board
considers at the request of applicants
possible exceptions to the Code, to the law as
it's already written by others in some cases
long ago. The reason for the existence for
the Zoning Board of Appeals is in my humble
opinion to consider the possible exceptions in
a given case and determine on behalf of the
people of the Town whether or not a given
proposal would be good, bad or neutral.
Everything that comes before the Board and is
favorably received requires the approval of an
exception based upon the Board's judgment,
which is not specifically part of the Code,
but my impression is that these findings are
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
not ordinarily considered to be writing new
code.
The impact of the existing CO. One of
the Board's stated concerns is that the
approval of a variance in the present case
would result in the establishment of a
precedent and precipitate a rash of new
applications for similar relief. It should be
noted, however, that our argument relies upon
the existence of a valid Certificate of
Occupancy describing the implied use of the
structure for overnight sleeping and bathroom
accommodations. It is unlikely that many of
the flood of new applicants will be able to
offer such historical prior approval as an
inducement to the Board.
So we feel this situation is unique and
we ask that the Board consider that we're only
asking that we be permitted to in effect have
a better upgraded version of what's already
there. As I stated, we completely revised our
original plan in an effort to present a
proposal more in keeping with our perception
of the more important Code-related issue
moving the main house back to the specified
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
setback from the bulkhead. In so doing, we of
course found it necessary to relocate the
existing accessory structure. The existing
permitted use of which is critically important
to the owners. It was our feeling that the
new current plan is sufficiently desirable and
completely innocuous to warrant the support of
the Board to the extent that it would approve
a variance to allow the continued overnight
sleeping and bathroom use of the relocated and
rebuilt accessory structure, the guest house.
Thank you. Are there any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well --
MR. FITZGERALD: May I now come up where
I can hear?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just one thing, during
the course you said the house guest is
certainly a customary structure. A guest
house is certainly a customary structure, you
said it's not permitted, but I think you meant
prohibited. You said not permitted, but I
wanted to clear that up.
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you're telling me
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
it's not
convince me otherwise,
it'll state that and I
up.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
meant I'm sure.
MEMBER OLIVA: We just
another application.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER OLIVA:
a permitted use. You're trying to
but just in the record
just want to clear that
Thank you.
That isn't what you
got through with
I'm sorry?
We just got through
hearing another application --
MR. FITZGERALD: Did they have a CO?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. FITZGERALD: Alright, then there is a
flood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's at least a
valley or at least a little tributary.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, the same
situation long thin lot, the same type of
situation. A long thin waterfront lot,
demolition of the existing garage sleeping
quarters and rebuilding a new one. Demolition
of the existing house increasing the setback
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
from the water. Very similar, both with COs
and part of the thing we're wrestling with is
when an individual demolishes a structure in
this case, you know, you've attempted in
rebuilding to conform to the bulk -- setbacks
form the bulkhead. I think you're
significantly reducing the nonconformity in a
very serious way. I'm not going to compare
the other case particularly, but your proposal
really specifically recreates what's there. I
mean, if you look at the plan as it is now of
the garage it's a bedroom and a bathroom
although now it's a full bathroom instead of a
half bathroom. Still on the first floor,
right. Let's see you had half bathroom on the
first floor and a half bathroom on the second
floor.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now you're going to have
-- you're proposing to do a full bathroom on
the ground floor.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Right.
Same visual
configuration. You know, so we have to I think
sometimes look at the spirit or intent of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
law as well as the technical aspect of the
Certificate of occupancy -- what happens to a
C O when there's a demolition. I mean so I
think this board is going to wrestle in good
conscience with the consequences of that
because this isn't the only situation like
that. I mean if we want to come to some
reasonable and rational conclusion about how
to handle something like this, at least I
certainly do anyway.
MR. FITZGERALD: If the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any problem
at all, by the way, with your side yard
setback.
MR. FITZGERALD: Alright.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a skinny lot, what
are you going to do with it? And you would
have had the option of renovating the garage
with guest sleeping quarters had you not
pushed back this building to be conforming
with, you know, the
MEMBER SIMON:
on that though.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
setback from the water.
He didn't have any choice
Well, they at first
asked for a variance.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
it.
it.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah and they didn't get
They were told they weren't going to get
MEMBER WEISMAN: And so they're -- well,
they're pushing it back. Well, if they do
that they have no choice but to push back.
MR. FITZGERALD: No, we didn't not get
it.
MEMBER SIMON: No, you --
MR. FITZGERALD: We didn't not get it
only because we never got to that point.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, the decision was
made --
MEMBER WEISMAN: They voluntarily --
MEMBER SIMON: You voluntarily because
chances of getting a variance for the
your
house were heightened by moving the house in
such a way that you had to remove or demolish
the guest house. Okay, fine.
I would like -- are you finished?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I'll point out
that there's a difference between an accessory
apartment in an accessory structure. This is
not what you have or what you're proposing.
There's no cooking facilities, there's nothing
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
put the
MR.
what?
like that. It is strictly for transient
guests to sleep in and have a bathroom. Okay,
I do want to just clarify for the record
that's different than proposing an apartment
in an accessory structure.
MEMBER SIMON: It is agreed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What amazes me is
why you just don't build the house bigger and
garage --
FITZGERALD: You just don't build
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The home bigger and
put the garage on the downstairs of the house,
on the back of the house.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it may come to
that, but I think what we're -- what the
owners are trying to do is what seemed, as we
say, like a good idea at the time is replace
what's there and, if I may, just on the
question of the disappearance of the CO on
removing or fixing a -- one wonders why the
original framers put that in the Code. I
think it's because people were --
MEMBER SIMON: Put what -- I'm sorry, put
what in the Code?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR.
advantage of it.
MEMBER SIMON:
the Code?
FITZGERALD: -- apt to do, taking
They --
I'm sorry,
put what in
Why they put that
provision in the Code.
MEMBER SIMON: Which one?
MR. FITZGERALD: That the CO disappears
if you remove, reconstruct, expand or paint it
purple.
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
buildings.
It doesn't apply to new
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause it's not --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, because --
MR. FITZGERALD: In this situation --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because there's nothing
to occupy, that's why.
MEMBER SIMON: Because
have to say is why should a
ghost
I think what you
CO persist as a
after a place is demolished waiting for
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put what in the Code?
the Code.
MR. FITZGERALD:
You said put that in
MR. FITZGERALD: Huh?
MEMBER SIMON: Why the original framers
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
someone to come along and build a new house on
that same spot? I think the burden of proof
is there, that doesn't seem at all obvious.
MR. FITZGERALD: That I think is a
situation that would be classified as what
somebody said last time as willy-nilly.
MEMBER SIMON: No, it would be willy-
hilly to say that COs have an afterlife and if
we're going to say the afterlife expires after
two years or one year, okay that ought to be
in the Code, but what's the difference between
a three-month afterlife and a three-year
afterlife, if the Code doesn't specify?
MR. FITZGERALD: Well --
MEMBER SIMON: The easy thing to say is
it doesn't have one.
MR. FITZGERALD: So we'd have to agree to
disagree. It seems to me that what we're
talking about is people that to a passerby
would seem to have a main house and a guest
house.
MEMBER SIMON:
issue.
Okay, that's a policy
MR. FITZGERALD: Now, they -- without
considering the sale of the property
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
(inaudible), but now what we want to do is end
up with a new main house and guest house and
in order to do that a CO somehow or other with
your approval and this is what this is all
about with your approval has to be issued to
allow the use of that building in that way.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I was responding to
actually your report is quite impressive in
some ways and I think the argument deserves to
be taken very seriously. Some are more
compelling than other ones, but let me mention
later on about the (inaudible). What seems
like a good idea, sounds like a good policy
and the problem is if you're going to say that
the Board is not enacting Code, but they are
in effect enacting policy because your idea is
so good that it ought to be in the Code and
it's either going to function as a precedent
without a Code, which makes the case we're
writing Code or else you're going to have to
wait to try to get the Code changed or
following the other suggestion, Gerry's
suggestion is you may have to build the thing
connected with the original house until the
Code is amended because there's no way that
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
you can stop people in the future from saying
is this policy that Jim Fitzgerald created is
so good I think I want to follow it too.
We saw a case of the same thing today and
it's a matter of strategy --
MR. FITZGERALD: When was the last one
before that?
MEMBER SIMON: What?
MR. FITZGERALD: When was the last one
before that?
MEMBER SIMON: It's happened before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, it's gone on.
MEMBER SIMON: We've had them before.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER SIMON:
Yeah.
With a CO?
Correct. Yeah,
because
Jim the thing is whenever -- most buildings
that are being used have COs, right? And then
they're torn down the COs are still there so
it's not at all unusual for this to be a
property where there will be a CO, which may
survive demolition of a house. If this
happens this time, it will always happen. COs
either disappear when the building is torn
down and teardowns are fairly common or they
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have an afterlife and you're depending on the
idea of an afterlife and I don't find that a
very compelling argument.
What I do think is a much better argument
though is the one where you talk about reading
the Code. I'm going to have to back and read
the Code to see the difference between not an
improved use and whether this is possible.
The very idea as Leslie suggests correctly it
would be a pretty good idea, maybe, if we
could allow accessory buildings with customary
uses, but maybe not uses in accessory
buildings, but customary uses as long as there
is no kitchen. So then it looks as though
with that interpretation if your right then we
are free to decide what one way or the other
to interpret the Code that says you could
always build a guest house on your land
without the Certificate of Occupancy argument,
which I don't think carries any water. That
would be a very good idea, maybe, but I don't
think that's one for us to decide. The other
final point I would make is I think it's a
matter of choice of words when you say use the
word exception that this Board is created to
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make exceptions to the Code. I take exception
to that. It's not to create exceptions to the
Code, it's to create variances. An exception
to the Code might be to say, well, we used to
allow only one house on a property, but now
we're going to make an exception and allow
three. The word exception is so general it
would allow anything. We would have -- there
would be no limits on the jurisdiction of this
particular Code. So I don't think you want to
mean exceptions, you mean where our power of
variance and the problem I have that's a lot
of narrower than the power to create
exceptions whenever we want to and that's why
it would depend on rereading of this Code
which may or may not permit -- my mind is
still open on that -- to do what you're
suggesting and I think that's -- I'm just
trying to analyze the issues, you know, the
ones that make sense and are worth pursuing
and the ones that are from people like me a
little bit of a smoke screen; however
compelling they may be, you know, moral or
social policy point of view. We're not in the
policy business.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. FITZGERALD: Right. The CO question
was never part of our original plan except in
saying here's what's there now and here's what
we'd like to have.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FITZGERALD:
I understand.
We're not talking about
the CO surviving from here to there.
MEMBER SIMON: I know you're not talking
about it, but that's the (inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: We're talking about
building a structure for that use, for that
intended use, for which we will get a CO
simply because you folks said it was okay and
the other thing is and this somehow or other
always disappears if I get the rhetoric and
that is it would seem to be a very basic
question and I ask you what is it a dwelling?
Do you think that this building that we're
trying to build is a second dwelling on this
property?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, actually this is
one thing I was going to make a comment on,
which is that it is feasible that this is
something in between that it is, you know,
that's the only language the Building
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
Inspector has to use is to refer to sleeping
quarters as a second dwelling when, in fact,
according to the range of description of what
a second dwelling is described as this is less
than that. So we will need to think about
this as an example of --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah right. You're right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- whether or not this
disapproval describing it as a second dwelling
is completely accurate because it has a
sleeping place and a bathroom. Let me ask you
something it doesn't spell out anywhere so
I'll ask you without making assumptions. Is
this proposed garage with sleeping area
heated?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely.
MEMBER SIMON: Then it's not a dwelling.
Your argument depends upon an --
MEMBER WEISMAN: They can have a heated
garage. I mean I'm just asking. It's not a
seasonal use.
MEMBER SIMON: No, no. This is the
argument --- you're absolutely right. It's
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
between whether it's a dwelling -- a playhouse
is not a dwelling, but a house with heat and a
bedroom, but no kitchen is that a dwelling?
Well we may be free to decide, short of other
interpretation, to interpret the Code by way
of saying no it's not a dwelling because
that's what you want them to do.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. The
definition of a dwelling is does not match
with what we have.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
is.
Conform with what this
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I -- can I --
MR. FITZGERALD: And the Code writers
wrote it down. They said this is what a
dwelling is.
BOARD ASST.: The Chairman wants to say
something.
MR. FITZGERALD: What?
BOARD ASST.: The Chairman's going to say
something.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We just -- we need
to continue on and get this done, but about
five years ago the ZBA made a decision --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Interpretation.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- interpretation
rather basically stating that, you know, it's
the Building Inspector that has to make that
determination, okay, and it may sound arduous
in this particular case by calling it a second
dwelling, alright, I mean it's a stretch, but
I mean, in general, it's that person's ability
or those person's abilities to do that
situation.
MR. FITZGERALD: That's something that
has to be settled someplace other than here?
MEMBER SIMON: We can interpret it.
MR. FITZGERALD: Pardon me?
MEMBER SIMON: We can interpret what the
Building --
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: We did this
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes,
have an interpretation in this one.
file a separate interpretation.
MEMBER SIMON: If we accept the Building
Department's interpretation then we're not
interpreting, but then you lose, because the
Building Department said it's a dwelling and
if we are going to say this is not a dwelling
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in Walz.
but we don't
We didn't
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
and, therefore, the Building Department's
ruling doesn't apply, then we are interpreting
in a way that is favorable to you. That's an
interpretation and it might be a good one, but
it's an interpretation.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, how do we do that
BOARD ASST.: We've had one already on
it. The board's done an interpretation on
this issue prior to you being on the Board, so
you want to research it before you --
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
you.
Okay.
Remind me to give that to
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible). I think
you all know what we're after and I think that
all the things we're talking about are ways in
which we can or cannot abide by or manipulate
from my standpoint I guess, the rules to make
it possible for us to do that and that is --
it's gotten so complicated with all the issues
that I think that we're losing the big picture
and that is here's what we have now and here's
what we'd like to have and why shouldn't that
be okay?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: Well --
MR. FITZGERALD: The answer that you give
is because Michael Verity says this is a
second dwelling when, in fact, it is not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that's not the
reason. The reason is exactly what Michael
was saying. The minute you sever that
particular unit be it a building, a structure
or a dwelling from its existing site, the COs
have gone away and now it's an accessory
structure if you have a main structure for it
to be accessory to. Okay?
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is the reason
why, Jim, people who want to build these
structures, okay, and this was clearly stated
by a prior Board member if you remember Laura
Collins, they built port coushes (sic) okay.
A port coushe is the exact same thing, it is
structure usually side to side with an overall
improved bridge over to another structure.
Okay? And that structure can be construed to
be, you know, it can have a garage underneath,
but it's a structure all interrelated into one
structure and that's how port coushes came to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
be. I mean historically they were done for
architectural purposes, but that's why people
build them today and that's exactly what I
would build here and that's the reason why I
asked you that question.
have to be a port coushe,
structure just added to.
Okay, it doesn't
it can be a regular
Okay? To include
additional bedroom area with the garage
underneath, okay, cause you have a lot that's
524 feet long.
MR. FITZGERALD:
you're saying.
I fully understand what
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FITZGERALD: Being the kind of guy I
am, I sit back and I say why is it okay if
they're connected, but it's not okay if
they're not connected and the --
MEMBER SIMON: The short answer is
the law.
MR. FITZGERALD: -- pardon me?
MEMBER SIMON: The short answer is
the way the law was written.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER SIMON:
picture. Here, but
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it's
that's
Yeah.
Talk about the big
look this is interesting
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
because you talk about the big picture. The
big picture and common sense and what most
people -- is on your side. There's another
big picture and that big picture includes the
constraints of the law and the future
applications. That's another big picture and
it overlaps with your big picture, but it also
conflicts. So, yes, of course, what you say
has to do with common sense as long as common
sense doesn't include some of the other things
that we're up here to worry about. So I'm
sympathetic, but you know it's --
BOARD ASST.: You're in the right place,
so the Board of Appeals to make that decision
for you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so that's the
story. The question is are we still going at
the setback of 75 feet from the bulkhead or
what are we doing?
MR. FITZGERALD: So far.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So far, okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, because I think
that the (inaudible) shown that that does not
make for a big problem for us so it's what you
wanted. It's an expression of good faith
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to just make a
contment and I divest myself from anything that
Mr. Simon said that it absolutely -- I
understand, Mr. Fitzgerald, exactly what
you're asking for and I believe that your
hardship for that, your give and the Town's
take are almost an equal value. So I don't
want you to walk away thinking that there's
five people unanimously thinking that -- what
Mr. Simon thinks cause there is not.
MEMBER OLIVA: Don't put words in my
mouth.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or mine.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: In my opinion, you're
asking us to take a use that was stamped by
the Town with a CO and transfer it to a
structure of similar size to a different part
of that property and that in order for you to
accommodate moving back your house to meet
Code. Is that it?
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's it in a nutshell
and that's all I have.
BOARD ASST.: You said the building was
heated, right, the accessory building was
heated?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: The accessory building is
heated?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It isn't heated,
where is it heated?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I asked -- I asked --
MR. FITZGERALD: You mean now?
MEMBER OLIVA: The proposed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, proposed.
Proposed, yes.
MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I asked that
before.
BOARD ASST.: That's what I thought.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's establishing year-
round potential use. That's all.
BOARD ASST.: The old building didn't
have heat is that what you're saying?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not illegal to
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
heat.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The present
building is a seasonal building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Without heat.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By definition a
seasonal unit by this Board was dealt with
Tugsley in New Suffolk and it was something
like November 1st to April 15th no use. Okay
and that's what seasonal meant.
BOARD ASST.: No heat you mean?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No heat.
MR. FITZGERALD: Why are we talking about
that?
this
the
for a heated space now as opposed to an
unheated space.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't see where the
Building Inspector said anything about that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because the
Building Inspector didn't look at the
building.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not a subject of
variance.
BOARD ASST.: Existing building use, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a minute it is
subject of this variance. He is asking
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, then he needs to
go back there, I guess.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well that may be
his problem, I have no idea and I'm not here
to discuss that issue.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just wanted to say --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
Don't ever tell me
Gerry, you read
things into the applications that simply
aren't there to whatever, bolster your
argument or whatever it happens to be, but
let's just take the gentleman's testimony and
we'll make our decision based on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine and
anybody on this Board has the right to express
their opinion.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but don't state
fact, Gerry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What fact am I
stating, I'm stating that I inspected the
building and there's no heat in it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That -- that's --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And if you don't
like that, I'm sorry, and that's very simply
the case.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I guess the question
came up I wanted to be sure for the record
that when it's written up in the preliminary
fashion the existing garage with the sleeping
quarters is currently unheated.
MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is unheated by
my inspection.
MEMBER SIMON: Mine too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I didn't see any heat in
it.
BOARD ASST.: Could you confirm that by
letter or something so we have that clear on
the record?
MR. FITZGERALD: Just (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Yes, that helps to resolve.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And whatever the
square footage is
area and you know,
whatever it is.
BOARD ASST.:
yOU.
on the existing sleeping
sitting area, sleeping area
The square footage, thank
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing pending the receipt
of the information from Mr. Fitzgerald.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING %6221 - Lloyd Kaplan
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BARON: Shawn Baron, Suffolk
Environmental Consulting for the applicant,
Lloyd Kaplan.
You were kind enough to let me go run
over to the Building Department and I found
out that the 10-foot side yard setback would
not need a variance.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
Oh good.
I'm sorry we didn't know
it when you were here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I thought it was.
MR. BARON: So we're basically looking at
2.8 percent relief from the lot coverage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. BARON: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
22.8.
Very good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's the only
variance necessary.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry we sent you to
all that trouble.
MR. BARON:
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
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today.
MEMBER SIMON: If we had the Code here we
could have answered this an hour and a half
ago.
MR. BARON: So
opportunity.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
up.
it goes. I appreciate the
I thought it was okay.
That's why I brought it
MR. BARON: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I corament on that?
A while ago we had a plan in place that
would require that the Building Inspector look
at these revisions in other words you would
have been told don't come here, go to the
Building Inspector let him look at that first
and stamp it say okay this is the one I looked
at. This is what my Notice of Disapproval is
stated on, you wouldn't have to waste three
hours of your time going over that again.
Now I had thought this Board still
required that, obviously it has not cause
yours is the second application this has
happened to today. So I apologize that you
had to stay here --
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What was the first
application?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I apologize that Bruce
had to pay you to do so.
MR. BARON: Well, I'm not sorry he had to
pay me, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, where was the
first application?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Hold on just one second,
there's the other one here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, let's hear
this because there was a time that Mr. Dinizio
wouldn't do a thing without a new updated
disapproval.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that was last
year.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, hold on a second I
took care of that and evidently it hasn't been
taking place that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Every variable --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What was the other one?
Faga.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Every variable that
exists in this -- that comes before this Board
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
could never be second guessed prior to a
hearing. There are just too many variables
and that's the case.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Gerry, we're supposed to
be looking at Disapprovals from the Building
Inspector. We're not supposed to be making
decisions based on anything other than that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When did we make a
decision --
MEMBER DINIZIO: So if he's basing his
decision on a map that we're not seeing then
this is going to happen continuously.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On a map that we're
not seeing. What are we not seeing?
MEMBER DINIZIO: We don't need to argue
that now. There's going to be a time when
we'll be able to argue this. I just wanted to
point out to you and I wanted to apologize to
this gentleman for that reason.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But what are we not
seeing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's all I need
to discuss. I just wanted to apologize to him
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you're --
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MEMBER DINIZIO: -- because he wasted a
lot of his time based on something he should
not have had to because it should be required
by the people accepting these applications
that a Building Inspector look at them.
That's all I'm saying for now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not finished
with this conversation because the
conversation is very simply this, okay,
sometimes -- we realize there are people in
this world that don't make mistakes, but
sometimes because of the variables of this
Board things do happen. Okay, in this
particular case we very simply didn't want him
to go any farther than that so that's why we
sent him over there. Okay there are times and
this gentleman is from Southampton and maybe
he didn't have the time to come over here and
go to the Building Department to ask them that
question. I don't think all the time we have
to direct people to do things, alright, in all
situations and that's my response to you
because quite honestly I'm not perfect, I'm
not even close to perfect, but I do the best I
can.
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
BOARD ASST.: I'd like to just mention,
procedurally, this is something we do at
almost every hearing when a plan is amended to
be sure that the applicant doesn't have to
come back again and get back. So since the
Building Inspector did not see his amended
plan, the applicant's agent volunteered to go
over and it ended up in his favor and it
probably was a good time spent to get that
resolved.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we did the
exact same thing in Meyran and we will discuss
that after this hearing is closed.
We thank you, sir.
MR. BARON: Thank you. Mr. Dinizio, I
don't think it's necessary, but your apology
is accepted.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you very much.
MR. BARON: Thank you again for the
opportunity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: hearing no comment
I'll make a motion closing the hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - February 19, 2009
HEARING #6247 - Diane and Henry Hobbs
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Sections
280-122A and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's September 24, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval and ZBA #5039 (Zoning Code
Interpretation in the Matter of R. Walz).
Building Inspector states
alterations and additions
The
that the proposed
to the existing
single-family dwelling will constitute an
increase in the degree of nonconformance at
less than 40 feet from the code-required
minimum front yard
Road adjacent to a
CTM 1000-104-4-9."
setback, at 800 Sterling
freshwater pond, Cutchogue;
Who would like to be heard on this? Ah,
Ms. Mesiano.
MS. MESIANO:
of the applicant.
Catherine Mesiano on behalf
As you stated, we're
proposing a second-story addition to an
existing single-family dwelling. Very
briefly, we have 27,275 square feet parcel in
an R-40 zone. The existing dwelling was built
in 1973 with the CO being dated 1974, CO #Z
5901. That CO was updated CO Z 23134 on
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8/2/94. There have been no prior variances.
Ail setbacks are established setbacks. We do
not propose to modify any of the setbacks of
the structure. The front setback requirement,
the present Code was enacted subsequent to the
issuance of the original C O on the house. So
we are dealing with the established setbacks.
We're proposing a second story addition
of 25 by 40. There will be no ground
disturbance. Again, maintaining all existing
setbacks. We maintain a front setback of 35.8
to the nearest point of the house with 37.9
feet at the proposed addition. The variance
that we're requesting essentially is for less
than 3 feet, but for the sake of round numbers
I've used the 3 feet. So it's an area of 40
feet by 3 feet of the second story addition,
which obviously is 120 square feet. So the
extent of the variance we request with respect
to the structure is 120 square feet.
The existing -- the second part of the
project is expanding the porch. The existing
front setback to the porch is 33.2 feet, which
is to be maintained. The existing concrete
stoop and stairs will be removed and in its
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place constructed a 5.5 by 10.8 covered, but
unenclosed, porch. Again, we're maintaining
the existing front setback. There's a couple
of feet on either side the porch will be
increased in its width, not in its depth, so
the existing setback will be maintained. Now
the Code allows for a porch as a projection of
up to 30 square feet, a 5 by 6 porch, so
therefore our porch of 5.5 by 10.8 feet is
59.4 square feet. 30 square feet of which is
allowed, thereby creating the need for a
variance of 29.4 feet.
BOARD ASST.: Square feet, right?
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I'm sorry, what did I
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. MESIANO:
say?
Feet.
Yeah, 29.4 square feet is
the variance requested with respect to the
expansion of the porch and again --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
square feet.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
That's above 30
So it's a total of
MEMBER SIMON: 59.
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MS. MESIANO: It's a total of 59.4 square
feet, 30 square feet of which is allowed under
the Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. MESIANO: I have
gave Linda.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MS. MESIANO:
mention that under
Excuse me.
it in the notes I
I would like to just
ZBA decision %5252 dated
1/23/03 this Board granted relief for a new
porch in excess of 30 square feet 11 feet from
the front lot line.
The proposed additions conform to the
neighborhood. Gall Wickham is here, she
represents a neighbor and I'd like to address
the issues that the neighbor is concerned with
just for the sake of getting it all out on the
table and Gall jump in any time you want.
The neighbor was concerned with outdoor
lighting. This would be the neighbor to the
east, Monihan. She's concerned with outdoor
lighting and no outdoor lighting is proposed,
but in the event any outdoor lighting is
installed it would, of course, be compliant
with the dark skies requirement in the Code so
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that it would not, if you will, spill out and
encroach on someone else's property. There
was an issue relating to where is the septic
system and in your packet you have an original
survey -- a copy of the original survey from
1974, which shows the septic system, the
septic tank and the cesspools, and they are
still in the same location. I do have -- I
can show you a copy, but I can't give it to
you because it's my original Trustees' stamped
approval upon which I have the septic system
and the proposed drywells shown.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, are you saying the
septic system is going to remain where it is?
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The second story
addition is not going to require any changes
in the existing sanitary system.
MS. MESIANO: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Did I also hear you say
that you are maintaining all existing
setbacks?
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Other than the expanded
porch?
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MS. MESIANO: Porch. The setback will
still be maintained, we're expanding it
sideways not towards the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright,
stoop -- that's staying where
MEMBER SIMON: The
so the existing
it is?
setback of the stoop -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so you're
expanding the width of the porch not the
steps.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So all existing setbacks
are being maintained.
MS. MESIANO: Yes. The only ground
disturbance that will occur will be that
necessary for new construction (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll give you that
right back.
BOARD ASST.: Are you going to look at
that before we give it back? Trustee stamped
map, site map.
MS. MESIANO: The neighbor's other issue
was regarding the visual impact to her and the
Hobbs' are planning in the course of this
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project to do additional landscaping along the
easterly lot line. So I think that will
satisfy Ms. Monihan's issue with seeing the
project. It's a -- I just want to say that
it's a densely vegetated area so whatever is
planted will have to be shrubbery that will
grow in a iow-light condition, but, if you've
been to the site, you can see that it's well
landscaped and they know what plants will
grown in what conditions. So I think that I
can safely say that the landscaping will be
done appropriately for the conditions that are
there. From the point of the retaining wall,
I don't want to call it a retaining wall, the
stoop -- the patio in the backyard, from the
wall of the backyard patio towards the road so
that there's a visual obstruction between the
Monihan property and the Hobbs property.
Another issue that was raised by Ms.
Monihan's attorney is the question of whether
or not this is already a two-story house and I
checked with the Building Department. This
question is raised because the house is at
grade at the front and in the rear of the
house you walk out from the basement at grade.
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They've already reviewed the issue and
determined because of the degree of the
property that is below grade they consider it
to be a one-story dwelling. So the addition
of the second story will not constitute a
third story.
I do have additional photographs that I
will give you, again, asking for a second
story. I've taken some photographs of the
neighborhood and labeled these the best I can.
I've concentrated on Sterling Road and then
I've gone onto Bay Avenue because the pond
that is in the backyard also abuts some
properties on Bay Avenue. Ail of those
properties are two-story larger houses, some
with detached garages. Neighbor to the west
is a two-story house, I'll just give you these
photographs. Also photographs that
demonstrate the density of the vegetation
that's already on the Hobbs property,
nevertheless, we will provide more. This is
the Monihan property from the Hobbs property
and, again, just the density of what's there,
nonetheless, there'll be plantings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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MS. MESIANO: Gail, do you want to say
anything before I proceed?
MS. WICKHAM: Hello. My name is Gall
Wickham. I'm here for the Monihans, the
property owners to the east, and I want to
thank Cathy. I'm glad we were able to work
out our issues and I thank the Hobbs for
agreeing to meet our concerns. I just want to
say that from past experience while Cathy has
put on the record what issues we did discuss I
know that those don't find their way into the
Building Department file, so if you would
consider making reference to them in your
decision and just let me perhaps summarize
them because our client's concern is the pond
and the general impact on the neighborhood.
First, that any outdoor lighting be
shielded and the illumination glare not extend
into the pond area or neighboring yards. It
sounds like you have a map with the sanitary
system, so I'll get a copy of that. Secondly,
that the screening of shrubbery along the area
from that I guess it would be the southerly
retaining wall up to the front line setback be
established somewhere between the western
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boundary line and the house just to shield the
house because it will now -- from where my
client's perspective is their house is set
back considerably further. They basically
already see two stories. The downstairs
basement is fully exposed and finished and
then the second story, so it will look to them
like a three-story house.
much like it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
So they would very
You need to mark
that on a map for us because it is --
MS. WICKHAM: Cathy and I can do that and
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and you'll
submit that to us?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah and I think that in
terms of the lighting, now that I'm thinking
about it, those shrubbery -- that shrubbery
will get light from the western sun so I think
they'll do okay, hopefully. That's all I
have. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Gall.
Thank you, Cathy.
MS. MESIANO: You're welcome and just
briefly to summarize, an undesirable change
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will not be produced in the character of the
neighborhood as I stated, the use and utility
of the property will not change. The
occupancy of the property will remain as a
single-family dwelling. There will be no
change in density to the neighborhood. The
setback of the new porch is in line with the
established front
presently exists,
addition.
yard setback, as it
as is the second story
The benefit south by the applicant cannot
be achieved by some other method. The
practical difficulties caused by existing site
conditions preclude any but the activity
proposed. Any alternate site would place the
proposed addition closer to the wetlands, side
yards and/or front yard.
The amount of relief requested is not
substantial, as I stated. The relief, if
granted, with respect to the enlarging porch,
is 29.4 square feet over the 30 square feet
allowed and again that is roofed over, but not
enclosed, 120 square, 3 feet by 40 feet in
width of the second story addition. The
established front setback to the existing
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stoop is 32.2 feet and is not being reduced,
nor is the existing 35.8 feet setback to the
house.
This will not have an adverse impact on
the physical or environmental conditions.
Drywells will be installed to contain
stormwater run-off. Any erosion control
that's necessary will be implemented during
construction. No ground disturbance is
proposed, except as required for the
reconstruction of the front porch.
We don't believe the variance has been
self-created since the Code requirements of
setback changed after the issuance of the CO.
The existing structure was constructed
"pursuant to Building Permit #6612-Z dated
5/29/73 and conforms to all applicable
provisions of the law". Upzoning occurred in
1989 at which time setback requirements were
increased and the additional information
regarding the lot is simply approximately 40
percent of the site is freshwater wetlands.
Generally, level to sloping from the street at
an elevation of 17.7 to 18.6 to the front of
the house, which elevation is 18.7 to 18.9,
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gradually sloping down to elevation 13 at the
back of the house and sloping steeply down to
the pond of the freshwater wetland to an
elevation of approximately 2.5. Any first
floor expansion would create a greater
nonconforming wetland setback and the percent
of variance would be significantly greater.
This is the minimum that is necessary and
adequate and at the same time preserves and
protects the character of the neighborhood,
health, safety and welfare of the community.
I have two letters that were provided by
neighbors in support of the application.
Does the Board have any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MS. MESIANO: Okay,
I don't think so.
let me give you my
drawing that illustrates the extent of the
variance. I've colored it in with pink, the
best I could do, simple.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Would anybody else like to speak in favor
or against --
MEMBER SIMON: Are you asking the Board
for comments?
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
public and then we can go back to
Anybody in the audience like
or against this
Yes, sir.
name.
I'm asking the
application?
Kindly come
the Board.
to speak for
up and state your
MR. PIZZARELLI: Good afternoon. My name
is William Pizzarelli and I live directly
across the street from the Hobbs and also the
Monihans. I'm sort of right in the middle of
the two and I look at their house obliquely.
The Hobbs are my friends and the Hobbs are my
neighbors and I'm here to speak in their favor
and they have been with us every step of the
way with their plans asking is there any
objections and we took none and we are
directly across the street from them. Mostly,
we are probably the most impacted. I think
it's a very good design, being a builder
myself and I would respectfully request that
the Board consider this in the affirmative.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. AUWETER:
{sic). My wife,
Thank you, sir.
My name is Gifford Auweter
Joanne, and I live at 1250
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Sterling Road, which is one house further to
the west -- east, excuse me. I have much the
same statement as Bill. I see that the
architect has designed something that will
really enhance the appeal of the street and
give quite some pride to the neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. AUWETER: I do suggest that you
accept that application.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Anybody else?
What did you want to do, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: I just -- cause you
usually run through the Board for comments and
questions. I have no -- I was going to say
earlier that I have no questions, at this
point, having seen the flanks of neighbors I
thought I would wait until I had to respond to
them, but I have no questions and in effect,
I'm pleased with the outpouring of interest in
the neighborhood. I don't have any questions
with the application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. I asked and they
were answered.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, seeing no
hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold February 19, 2009
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature~/~] 4 ~ .~.~_~ ~
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
February 26, 2009
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