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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
January 8, 2009
10:00 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GEPJ~RD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member (10:17 a.m. to end)
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8,
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Jennifer Jacobs and Clayton Gates #6206 3-9
Anthony and Barbara Bonagura #6206 10-19
Michael K. and Therese Hughes #6236 20-53
Diane Mulvaney and Berry J. Bresloff %6228 54-60
Robert Bergamini #6241 61-65
Ronald Zito #6233 66-70
Jacqueline Moskowitz #6238 71-90
Theodore E. Prahlow #6234 91-157
Andrew and Elizabeth Greene #6235 158-191
2000 Broadwaters LLC #6186 192-208
Thomas G. and Joyce I. Messina #6223 209-229
George Yatrakis #6237 230-277
Traendly and Cadwallader 96207, 6264, 6154 278-308
Romanelli Realty Inc. %6268 309-320
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING #6206 - Jennifer Jacobs and
Clayton Gates
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variances concerning this
12,760 square foot parcel under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's July
24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed second-story addition and
alternations to the existing dwelling, with a
setback of less than the code-required 10 Ft.
minimum single side setback and less than 35
ft. minimum rear yard setback, at 645 Jackson
Street, New Suffolk; CTM 1000-117-9-5.2."
Is there anyone here to present this?
Okay. As I understand it's to put on a 22 by
28-foot second story partial addition over
your existing first floor and raise the roof
on the existing first floor. Side yard
setback proposed is 9.6 feet, the code
requires 10. Rear yard setback is 17.6 feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
which is now existing and the code requires 35
feet.
MR. SAMUELS: My name is Tom Samuels.
I'm here to represent Jennifer Jacobs and
Clayton Gates who are also in attendance
today.
Those setbacks, both the 9.5 and the 17.6
are existing. Obviously, the house was built
way back on the lot perhaps before that rear
yard minimum setback was established, but it
exists. It has a decent foundation, it's a
worthy house and the idea of adding on to it
with a second floor is by definition
nonconforming because the house itself, the
footprint, is within the setbacks. We believe
that the change we propose what you have on
the drawing is modest and in keeping with the
style and nature of the neighborhood. It's
really just adding on a bedroom and a small
study and is the least costly way to do such
and also is going to minimize the surface
area, meaning that the house will be more
efficient than if, for example, we extended
the first floor and made a bigger one-story
ranch, extended it out the front, which we
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studied and decided that this was a better
approach both for the look of the
neighborhood, which is a neighborhood of two-
story houses. They're all two-story houses,
this is the only one-story house on the block
and it's a little ranch, made sense in the 60s
maybe or in the 50s when it was originally
built, but now we would like to have you
consider this as a partial two-story within
the existing footprint. I would say we're
here under the Walz interpretation, which is
that we're increasing the nonconformity by
building that second floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, can I just
ask one question? Does this house have a
foundation underneath it or --
MR. SAMUELS: Yes, it does. A full
foundation under it all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Full foundation.
MR. SAMUELS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and it is your
opinion that this foundation can support a
second story?
MR. SAMUELS: Yes, it is absolutely true.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will certify
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that if we need you to?
MR. SAMUELS: I will need to and I will,
of course, do that. We have -- the working
drawings are complete. I will --
MEMBER WEISMAN: He
must.
MR. SAMUELS:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SAMUELS:
said he will and he
Right.
You will need to.
In general, just for
information, a spread-footing foundation and
wood framing are very flexible. They will
accept a lot more load than a one-story house
in almost all instances. You can build a
three-story house on that foundation, if you
needed to or wanted to, it is sufficient.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Tom, I just have one
question. It's perfectly appropriate, I
think, to do a modest second-story addition on
this house. The rear yard, right now there's
a door with a step out, it's almost like an
alley there.
MR. SAMUELS: Stoop. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the Bilco doors into
the basement, so is that going to remain?
MR. SAMUELS: Yes. I think we're moving
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that -- well, we'd like to move that door just
to work a little bit better on the floor plan
because where the stairs -- no, not where the
stairs are, but just because it made a little
more sense to do so, but we are at grade with
that, it's almost at grade anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very shallow.
MR. SAMUELS: It's a very shallow stoop
and so we're modifying that stoop modestly in
order to allow us to have a double door
instead of a single door that's there now. So
they'll take a little more advantage. I think
that it is a small backyard, it's all they
have. Obviously, the front yard has become
the backyard, it's their recreation area. The
rear yard maybe they have a barbecue there,
but it's not -- it's modest use.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For the record, no
intention of future applications for a deck, a
raised deck maybe --
MR. SAMUELS: No,
not.
in the back, absolutely
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- a patio at grade?
MR. SAMUELS: If anything, it would be at
grade and nonstructural --
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SAMUELS: --
grade or stone laid on sand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine.
questions.
MEMBER SIMON:
Fine.
by definition brick on
No further
I don't have any questions
of a substantive nature. The only question I
asked myself is since (a) this seems pretty
routine (b) this is the kind of case that
makes people annoyed that there is a Walz rule
because there's not a problem that I'm aware
of. My only question I asked myself was that
I'm surprised that it had to be delayed until
now to come before us because I can't imagine
what would have been problematic several
months ago cause I have -- this is a long way
of saying I have no questions.
MR. SAMUELS: Okay, then I don't have to
answer. I'm happy with the scheduling. The
scheduling has worked out for us and it's not
a problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
specific questions. We;ll see how it goes
throughout the hearing.
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January 8, 2009
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
It's always nice to start the first
hearing off this way.
MR. SAMUELS: I'm happy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Tom.
MR. SAMUELS: You're welcome.
THE COURT: Thank you, applicant.
I don't see other hands, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6081 - Anthony and
Barbara Bonagura
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is basically a
hearing that we had in October of 2007.
Michael, I don't think we need to read the
Legal Notice again.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, can we ask you
to state your name for the record, please?
MR. HEYNES: Yes, good morning Mr.
Chairman and members of the Board. My name is
Doug Heynes from the firm Design Development
Group in Stony Brook, New York. My
predecessor from Design Development designed
the original improvements to the home for the
Bonaguras several years ago and he was
responsible for filing all of the various
applications for approval including this one,
DEC, County Health, Board of Trustees for
wetlands approval. Regrettably, as you may
recall from the first hearing, our firm put
the cart before the horse not coming for this
approval before embarking on the plans to
extend the house.
The Board may recall some of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
hardships that led the Bonaguras to the
decision to incorporate an accessory apartment
in the home. It still their hope that
Barbara's mom and dad can move in with them
once they're able to sell their home out in
Patchogue. Obviously that plan has been
frustrated by the economy. The hardships
remain based on loss of employment and loss of
health. We have submitted to the Board for
its consideration an analysis of the original
existing dwelling which was at least 30 years
old in 1986 so it predates the requirement in
the Code. We believe with that submission
we've demonstrated to the Board that the
original dwelling would have qualified for an
accessory apartment, would have met all the
requirements.
At Ms. Kowalski's request several weeks
ago, we have now submitted to the Board a set
of floor plan drawings, a comparative analysis
of the existing structure with the accessory
apartment showing on the ground floor also
meeting all Code requirements in terms of the
location, the size with respect to the rest of
the dwelling and on the bottom of that large
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sheet showing the Board the layout of the
original two-story dwelling to demonstrate the
changes that were made.
Otherwise, we rely on the prior testimony
and respectfully request that the Board
approve this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just one quick
question. Michael, I apologize. There is no
change in this from the time we inspected it
prior to that October 2007 hearing, except
that I think at the time we had seen pretty
much the entire living room area or the living
area space of the accessory apartment pretty
much completed and completion of both
bedrooms, from what I recollect and just
visually thinking of it, and the kitchen was
not completely finished at that time, the
kitchen facility.
MR. HEYNES: As a matter of fact,
Chairman, your recollection is quite accurate.
The only change that was made, once the house
was completed, prior to the issuance of the
current CO, was the removal of the original
kitchen and then it qualifies for a CO for a
one-family dwelling.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. HEYNES: If this application were to
be approved, we would be reinstalling those
cabinets and those appliances in that same
location. Other than the removal of those
structures, there have been no changes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, I
apologize.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright, you may recall
that much of the discussion had to do with
efforts to reconcile this situation with the
literal language of the Code and the fairly
strict rules regarding accessory apartments
within a house and they're listed in the
application, the new application, and I
believe that there is one of them that is
perhaps a little bit troublesome and we're
board that can consider this to some degree
and that is the rules for an accessory
apartment suggest that it's designed for the
case where there's the larger house, 1600
square foot house, and then the accessory
apartment is going to be occupied by a tenant
and the other conditions.
Is that going to be the case in this
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particular property?
MR. SAMUELS: Yes, the --
MEMBER SIMON: They will not be occupying
the apartment rather than the -- in other
words, the owners, the applicants, are they
going to be living in the apartment or are
they going to be living in the overall house?
MR. SAMUELS: They'll be living in the
overall house that will be owner-occupied.
They're raising a 12-year-old daughter there
who would probably have some problems with
having to move back into the ground floor.
She's got a beautiful room in the upstairs
area of the house, so the owners will be
living in the larger part of the house. The
accessory apartment is intended, hopefully,
for Barbara's parents or any other use
consistent with the Code.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, but right now it's
being occupied by a 12-year-old?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no.
MEMBER SIMON:
apartment will be.
MR. SAMUELS:
MEMBER SIMON:
The smaller -- the
She'll be moving in --
The apartment is empty.
Sorry?
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January 8, 2009
MRS. BONAGURA: The apartment is empty.
We're living in the larger part of the house.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. BONAGURA:
part of the house.
MEMBER SIMON:
Sorry?
We're living in the larger
Oh, you're living in the
larger part of the house.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, would you state your
name for the record because --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, come on
over here and use the mike.
BOARD ASST.: Just identify yourselves.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just identify
yourselves. Thank you.
MR. BONAGURA:
Anthony Bonagura,
Road with my wife,
Oh, you're welcome.
the owner of 900 Holbrook
Barbara, and we're living
in the larger section of the house with our
daughter and the smaller section, the
accessory apartment, will be for our in-laws
when they sell their house, if possible.
MEMBER SIMON: The accessory apartment,
right now, then, is occupied?
MR. BONAGURA: Correct, sir.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words, it's as-
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built unoccupied.
MR. BONAGURA:
MEMBER SIMON:
Correct.
Correct. Alright, I have
no further questions.
MR. SAMUELS: Mr. Chairman, if I may.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. SAMUELS: We were required to do
three certified mailings in this situation.
The mailing address for Mr. and Mrs. Roche
(sic) was received and the card has been
filed. The mailing address for Mr. Paul
Pawlowski, although sent to his record address
in the Suffolk County records, did not result
in the receipt of a return receipt. We have
spoken with Mr. Pawlowski, he has addressed a
letter to the Board dated January 6tn in which
he acknowledges that he owns the property
across the street, pays tribute to his
neighbors and their lovely home, expresses
confidence that the accessory apartment will
be well-managed and acknowledges his awareness
of this public hearing and his consent to
their application.
The Board was also good enough -- the
secretary of the board was also good enough to
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supply me with correspondence that had been
received by the Board, from Mr. and Mrs. Roche
(sic) raising some question about whether
tenants would respect the gravel roadway that
leads to this property since they don't have a
vested interest in its upkeep. We understand
the concern that people have when others than
owners are living in an area, but this is an
owner-occupied house. We're raising a 12-
year-old daughter there. We're fully
cognizant of the local rules and regulations.
In fact, Mr. ?awlowski whose letter I'd like
to hand up, is actually the neighbor who does
the grading and the graveling on the road and
(inaudible) that is a (inaudible) hardship for
the neighborhood.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to mention the
letter is signed by Mr. Pawlowski and dated
January 6.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Michael are you finished?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, I am.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I take it that your
apartment will meet all the 15 criteria for an
accessory apartment?
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January 8, 2009
MR. SAMUELS: That is right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're not asking for
MR. SAMUELS: No sir.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's the right size, you
have smoke detectors and ladders and all of
that. That's all I have. Thank you.
MR. SAMUELS: Thank you, sir.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I remember this
application very well. The dilermma here was
primarily understanding the size of the
original dwelling and whether or not it met
the Code requirements for this particular
permitted use and I see that your plans are
detailed and square footages have been
calculated and as long as, as Jim has said,
that there's enough on-site parking and all of
the other things that are required for that
use, I don't really have any questions or any
problems.
MR. SAMUELS: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, by the nature
of these apartments, I think Jim touched on
it, and that is that, of course, you'll be
required to go back to the Building Department
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any variance on any of those?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
to meet any requirements that they want.
MR. SAMUELS: That's understood, Mr.
Chairman.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. SAMUELS: Thank you very much for
your consideration.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Just
don't leave until we close the hearing, okay?
MR. SAMUELS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6236 - Michael K. and
Therese Hughes
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-4 and 280-12, based upon an application
for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's September 22, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval stating that the as-built mobile
home is not permitted for two reasons: (1) it
constitutes a second dwelling.unit, and (2) it
contains less than 850 square feet of living
area. Location of Property: 9525 Main Road,
Mattituck; CTM 1000-122-6-13."
MRS. HUGHES: Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
the record, Mrs. Hughes.
MRS. HUGHES:
of the property.
BOARD ASST.:
Therese Hughes, the owner
You're going to identify
what you're submitting, right?
MRS. HUGHES: I will, yes. One is a copy
of the surrounding tax map of surrounding
properties and a list of 31 other homes that
are probably within 1000 feet of the subject
property. The subject property -- it shows
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
the density of the surrounding properties,
which reflects the norm of 0.25 or under.
This property in question is one acre with two
homes, which represents 0.5 acre per home,
which is more land than the normal surrounding
properties. The first 10 homes on the list
that I've handed out are older properties and
the next 21 homes all -- most of which are
0.18 acres represent the Town's own admission
that this size property is acceptable when
they made the construction of the Cottages at
Mattituck.
The historical use of the site has been
two homes for better than 40 years. We
purchased this property several years ago with
a small cottage and a mobile home already on
it. There is a certificate of occupancy in
place with the home and an accessory mobile
home, so therefore there really is no change
to the use of the property. We've simply
replaced what was already there.
Due to the nature of the mobile home it
could not be repaired with sheetrock and
nails. A mobile home has a life-span of which
this has seriously passed its reasonable and
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
expected use. The only option of repair was
to replace old with new, which allowed us to
bring it up to date with local and fire
building codes. We, as the landlord, also
have an obligation whether legal or moral to
provide a safe and clean environment in which
our tenants will live. We could not bring the
old mobile home up to any decent standard of
living and, therefore, replacement was our
only option.
The surrounding immediate use of the area
is a mix of residential and business use.
There is no negative impact on the area due to
there being two homes on one parcel. In fact,
there's been a positive impact on the area
since we have made a significant monetary
investment in this property. We have not
only cleaned up the property for better visual
impact beyond the main road as you first drive
into Mattituck, we have gotten rid of tenants,
which included a level III sex offender and
drug dealers. The local police department and
fire and rescue are no longer making regular
calls to this property and we ourselves, which
are the owners of the boatyard next door, have
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
endured endless acts of vandalism and verbal
abuse and threats from the previous tenants.
We now have nice, clean-cut tenants who do not
cause anyone any trouble. We are, therefore,
respectfully requesting a variance for the new
mobile home to be accepted as a replacement of
the previous one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I guess the crux
of this whole thing is that you replaced the
trailer, removed a nonconforming use and
replaced it. I think that's the whole point
of the Building Inspector's Notice of
Disapproval.
MRS. HUGHES: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Would you say that
that's correct?
MRS. HUGHES: Right. Yes, that would be
correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You say that the trailer
was unlivable, yet there were people living in
there. No, no, wait I just want to establish
that the trailer was useful and someone had
lived in that trailer for how long; up until
what point?
MRS. HUGHES: Up until the point that we
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
purchased the property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay,
'067
so that would be
MRS. HUGHES: Yeah, that would be
correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you replaced the
trailer when?
MRS. HUGHES: Within the next few months
after purchasing the property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So '07 or whatever.
MRS. HUGHES: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: In other words, you went
through whatever proceedings there was to have
that trailer vacated and then replaced it?
MRS. HUGHER: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The nature of a trailer
is not something that you rebuild, it has a
useful life. Is there any -- what is the
expected useful life of a trailer? Do you
know, did you find that out? What about the
new one, does it say?
MRS. HUGHES: The new trailer was two
years old when we purchased it, so --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. I mean what is
the expectancy, is there any expectancy of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
useful life?
MRS. HUGHES: You know, I guess that
would depend the same as a house. What's the
expected lifespan of a house if you keep it up
to date and if you make repairs as they're
needed or if you do nothing and let it fall
apart around you?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. HUGHES: The previous trailer, the
previous owners of the property did nothing.
It was a garbage dump. We have taken out
truckloads and truckloads of garbage,
refrigerators, scrap metal, TVs, out of this
property. It was a garbage dump. Everybody
around it just threw things from the tracks on
the other side and just threw it into the
woods. We've made a significant investment in
cleaning up this property and, as you drive
into Mattituck, it's one of the first
residences that you see. You can't even see
the mobile home from the street. As you drive
passed it, it's directly behind the other
house that's on the property. It's not
visible from the street, it's not visible to
anybody except the neighbors on either side of
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
it, which happens to be the boatyard that we
own and we own the property on the other side.
So it's really not --
around us.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
don't think that that's
it doesn't impact anyone
think that that -- I
the point. I don't
think that whether it can be seen or not to my
mind doesn't have much relevance, but what is
relevant to me is that, you know, our Code
says if you have a nonconformity and that
nonconformity is less
at some point in time
that nonconformity.
MRS. HUGHES: At
than 50 percent useful
then you no longer have
the time that I
submitted my application, I explained in a
cover letter there that I had gone down to
Town Hall to renew a trailer permit that the
previous owner had given me and they would not
allow me to renew the trailer permit. At
which time I went to my attorney, cause I was
very upset at that point, and I went to my
attorney and he told me that he saw no reason
that I needed to have a permit for a structure
that was listed on my certificate of
occupancy.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think I'm going to
need to hear more about that. I mean, if it
had a permit in my mind that means the Town
required a permit for that and when you came
to the Town and you no longer could get a
permit, I need to know that decision and then
simply because your attorney says that's okay
doesn't make it okay. I mean, maybe it does,
but I need to hear an explanation as to the
reason why.
I see that it was on the CO, but any
trailer that's on a piece of property or any
piece of property has buildings, you know,
that must have COs in order to be livable.
Certainly the trailer had to have a CO to get
a permit and --
MRS. HUGHES: I'm not aware
that anybody came down each year
it and I think --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think that's the
case. I believe that it's incumbent upon the
person who had the trailer to get the permit.
I don't think it works the other way around.
I don't think we have somebody knocking on
every trailer in Southold Town asking where's
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
your permit?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think we have a
unique situation here, Jim, and I'll tell you
the reason why. In reviewing the file, we
have both the CO and they had a trailer
permit. Okay, I think Mrs. Hughes said that
she tried to go down and renew the trailer
permit and they wouldn't renew it. I don't
really know the recognizing factor for the
trailer permit when she had a CO on the
trailer.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
would want to know.
Well, no, that's what I
That's my question and I
think we need to
a decision on this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
particular point, we can
find that out before we make
Okay. So at this
do one of two things.
We can ask Mrs. Hughes to go over to the
Building Department and ask one of the
Building Inspectors to come over here that she
had dealt with or to the site plan reviewer
that you discussed it with or whomever else
that you discussed it with and ask them if
they would come over and talk to us regarding
that. We could ask that, but, I mean, let's
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January 8, 2009
continue with the hearing at this particular
point and see if that's what the rest of the
Board thinks that that's what we should do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, I'd like to ask a
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead. Alright?
but
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yeah. I'm not done yet,
Now, there's a couple of
other things, too, that we should talk about
to see if we can't clarify. The CO that you
had was for two -- listed two accessory
structures, the trailer being one, which was
defined as an accessory structure with
accessory uses, and the shed, which is
deteriorating and no longer on the property.
MRS. HUGHES: It's listed as a storage
building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, storage facility.
Okay. Now, the current structure that's there
is -- we have two issues, one is is this on a
foundation?
MRS. HUGHES: The mobile home?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. HUGHES: It's on a, yes, it's on a
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
cement slab.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Alright, it's not --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
-- Leslie, it's not
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
foundation.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
asked her.
That's what I thought.
No, can I just interrupt
on a foundation, it's on a
A slab.
Yeah, that's not a
I know, that's why I
MEMBER DINIZIO: Just so you know, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm well aware of the
difference. The point is that this structure
was very permanently in place and there's no
intent in hitching it up to anything and
moving it. Okay, it is a second dwelling on
one piece of property. So we have that
situation because the Code doesn't permit two
dwellings on one, whether it's called an
accessory structure or a dwelling. So we have
to figure out how to deal with the issue of
two dwellings on one piece of property without
subdividing the property cause the property is
already so small.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. HUGHES: An acre.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well that's your -
- well, then the other issue is that in order
for a structure to be considered a dwelling
the Code requires that it be a minimum of 850
square feet. This mobile home is 14 by 60,
which is 785 square feet, so it doesn't meet
the Code in terms of minimum dwelling either.
So those are two significant challenges that
we have to deal with.
MRS. HUGHES: The previous mobile home
that was there was smaller --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. HUGHES: -- than the one that we
replaced it with --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand that.
MRS. HUGHES: -- therefore, we were
actually trying to keep it be consistent with
what was previously there, was not aware that
we should have bought one larger than we did.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I want to say that
I really empathize with your investment and I
appreciate very much the improvements that
you've made to the property. For the record,
it's important to try and flush out all of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
issues that are before us and I believe the
primary issue, at this point, is that we have
a permanent second dwelling on one piece of
property that has not been -- is deficient in
terms of the Code-required minimum size for a
dwelling.
I don't really have any questions about
it, I just wanted to -- I think maybe talking
to the Building Inspector, perhaps the Town
Attorney, I don't know, may be useful.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Okay,
Yes.
I agree that this is
complicated, unusual and I think we are going
to need a strengthening of the file on this.
First of all, there's this confusion about it.
These are called mobile homes, but the trick
is they're not mobile at all. People rarely
move them, they're virtually second dwellings
and they're just called mobile homes maybe
sometimes for tax reasons so that the owners
don't have to pay school taxes, at least in
some jurisdictions. It has nothing to do with
you.
Now, who lives in -- you rent out the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
primary building on the lot?
MRS. HUGHES: Yes, we do.
MEMBER SIMON: So we're dealing with
essentially two rental units on a single
property and one of them is nonconforming and,
for a whole lot of reasons, it doesn't have a
Certificate of Occupancy, at this point, the
people who are in the trailer.
MRS. HUGHES: The previous mobile home
had a Certificate of Occupancy.
MEMBER SIMON: But -- right and the
existing one. Jim is absolutely right,
whatever your lawyer told you isn't legally
binding on whether there is -- so what
happened was essentially there was a building
with a Certificate of Occupancy, which was
nonconforming, and it was removed. Maybe the
attorney really sincerely believed that the
space previously occupied by the previous
home, which was removed, somehow preserved its
C of O which then reverted to the new trailer.
That's not the case and so one of the things
you want is to see whether we can reach some
kind of an accommodation and I think, yes, we
will need further particulars. I would say,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
and you may want to add this further, there
are additional facts about this, namely having
to do with the nature of the region and the
environmental, the neighborhood
considerations. To most people going by
coming into Mattituck, this doesn't look like
a residential district, it looks like a
business district, which it is, it's Zone B, I
believe.
UNIDENTIFIED: It's residential.
MEMBER SIMON: It is? Is that
residential there?
MRS. HUGHES: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: Where is it B on the other
side of the raod?
UNIDENTIFIED: The parcel right next
door.
MEMBER SIMON: Right next door, okay.
The boatyard is B, but this is --
MRS. HUGHES: It's residential.
MEMBER SIMON: It would be called spot
zoning if it were done de novo, but it wasn't.
MRS. HUGHES: There's three houses to the
west of -- well, there's the property directly
to the west, which we own, and there's three
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
more houses. Three more residential
properties to the west between us and Capital
One bank.
MEMBER SIMON: What I would end -- I
would end with a question, which doesn't call
for an answer, it calls for advice for the
future, is to figure out what exactly further
you need to provide us so that we can make a
decision on this particular property because
it is unusual for the reasons that various
people have sited. I think that Jim and Gerry
and Leslie have done well to point out some of
the complexities and the difficulties about
this. So we want to be able to work with you
on this, but clearly we're not going to turn
the Code inside out. Okay, that's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Hughes, when
you said that you went to renew the trailer
permit, you went to the Town Clerk's Office to
do that?
MRS. HUGHES: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Jim I
apologize. We're welcome to take any other
testimony you want of Mrs. Hughes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't want to give you
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
any testimony, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I want to build a case,
okay, so that if we make a decision that
affirms this it's very particular to this
piece of property, if that's the case. Your
letter addressed that cause it would because
you want it, but you made some statements in
there that to my mind just need to be backed
up and put --
MRS. HUGHES: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in our record. Now,
one is, you know, if your lawyer, Mr.
Caminiti, would give us his opinion as to the
reason why he thinks that CO was still in
effect.
MRS. HUGHES: I would have to try to
reach him, I know that he's retired.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. I know, but in any
case --
MRS. HUGHES: Now and it is winter and I
think he's in Florida.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but you know it's
not going to get us anywhere if you make a
statement and we can't verify that statement.
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January 8, 2009
MRS. HUGHES: I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you need to
somehow address that so we can come to some
conclusion on that.
MEMBER SIMON: It doesn't require, as I
understand it, a response
lawyer.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER SIMON:
from that specific
No.
Somebody else could step
in and render an opinion on this. So if you
can't reach Mr. Caminiti, that is not fatal to
your application by any means.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, I'm not asking
you about Mr. -- I'm just saying you said Mr.
Caminiti so my assumption is that --
MRS. HUGHES: Well, he was still working.
He handled the closing for us on the property
and directly after that when I went down to
the Town Clerks' Office to renew the permit
and they wouldn't let me do that, I went in to
see him.
BOARD ASST.: There was an old trailer
permit that when the old trailer --
MRS. .HUGHES: Um-hmm. Yeah, it was
under the name of Barbara (inaudible). I
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
think it was included in -- it wasn't included
in the first set --
BOARD ASST.: No.
MRS. HUGHES: -- of information?
BOARD ASST.: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you give us
the date on that permit, how old that permit
was? It doesn't have to be now.
MRS. HUGHES: I think it was dated -- it
was a current one that was dated the year
prior.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. HUGHES: But I do have it somewhere.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: In any case, you know,
that's one thing we need to clarify. Mr.
Caminiti, your statement about what Mr.
Caminiti said. Any lawyer that's willing to
back him up or Mr. Caminiti is fine with me.
MRS. HUGHES: I mean, I've known Mr. --
I've known Paul Caminiti for better than 15
years. I certainly wouldn't stand here and
say that he said something if he didn't. I
can try to reach him, I'm not -- I don't have
a number for him in Florida. I can try to
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January 8, 2009
call the attorney who took over his practice
and see if she can reach him for me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think that would be to
your advantage --
MRS. HUGHES: But he is retired.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- not mine, because you
know --
MRS.
asking me
HUGHES:
to verify a
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. HUGHES: --
I understand, but you're
statement --
That you've made.
that I've made, that I
said which he said to me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right,
made a statement and I just
that's all. You
want to know -- I
want to know what
made that,
that --
MRS.
legal grounds it is that he
you know, that you're relying on
HUGHES: My interpretation of what
he said to me was that if there's a
Certificate of Occupancy in place, why do you
need a permit? That was my interpretation of
what he said, of his answer to me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but -- okay.
MRS. HUGHES: And to me it make sense and
I said why do I need to renew a permit for
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
something I
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that may or may not
how this unfolds.
have a CO for?
May I ask a question
be relevant depending on
MRS. HUGHES: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Assuming that's one
issue, the C of O and so on. You're deficient
by 66 square feet in terms of the size of the
mobile home. Is there any possibility that
you would consider a very, very small addition
to bring that up to the minimum required 850
square feet? I know that's required, you may
think about this and it may not be relevant --
MRS. HUGHES: The actual square footage
MEMBER WEISMAN: There are two variances
and that's one of them and if we can eliminate
that --
MRS. HUGHES:
of the mobile home
The actual square footage
is really under
interpretation depending who goes out and
measures it. Depending on whether you look at
the square footage provided by the
manufacturer or whether you go out and measure
it from tip to tip or end to end or whatever.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
It's several feet less than the minimum 850
square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right.
MRS. HUGHES: The main house on the
property is only -- is under 600 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. HUGHES: So we're not -- we don't
have any question that the main house is less
square feet than the requirement is now, but
it's under question that the mobile home is a
few square feet less than -- I don't
understand why it's the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) --
MRS. HUGHES: We were trying to get a
smaller trailer because the one that was there
before was smaller and we were trying to find
one the same size, which we were not having
any luck finding something that we could
purchase and move and put on the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We only -- we go by the
Notice of Disapproval from the Building
Inspector. You know, we've all visited the
site and inspected the surroundings and so. I
asked it because even though other structures
may be smaller, they obviously predated the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
existing code.
MRS. HUGHES: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which,
have other
acceptable
the law as
for some reason,
kind of nonconformities that were
at the time. We have to deal with
it is now and the application --
MRS. HUGHES: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and with the
applications before us on the basis of current
code. So I just want to raise it for the
record.
MRS. HUGHES: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it might have to be
remeasured. It might -- it might be that it's
okay to leave it the way it is, but it's worth
discussing because should it come down to
that, it would be the possibility of a very
small addition so it eliminates one of those
variances.
MRS. HUGHES: I guess I'm a little
confused because my understanding of the Code
is that there is a minimum of 850 square feet
for a dwelling.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct.
MRS. HUGHES: However, I'm not aware of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
an actual Code that states a minimum square
footage on a mobile home.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is being described
as a second dwelling.
MRS. HUGHES: I understand, but it is
described on my CO as a mobile home.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Therein lies some of the
complexities.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So there's a lot of --
there's a lot of strange weavings --
MRS. HUGHES: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- here that we have to
BOARD ASST.: And also it was
nonconforming before.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Right.
Right.
-- and the nonconformity
may continue, but it was simply something I
wanted to explore for the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just clear
the record. So we're looking for an
affidavit, which would be the normal process,
from Mr. Caminiti indicating that he had
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
suggested that you just replace it.
MRS. HUGHES: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, based upon
the CO. That we can't take care of today. We
probably could take care of maybe asking a
Building Inspector to come over here that's
familiar with it or either one of the two
people over there that may have written the
Notice of Disapproval for you when you came in
with your permit, okay, and I don't know if
the Building Inspector would let them come
over or if he would come over himself. That's
the Chief Building Inspector, okay?
MRS. HUGHES: So you're looking for
someone from the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: From the Building
Department, right.
MRS. HUGHES: -- Building Department to
come over during this hearing today?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, so in this
particular case since we're still looking for
the affidavit, there probably is no reason to
get them to come over without making a formal
appointment and asking them to come over and
discuss it at another hearing. Am I correct
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
on that, gentlemen,
MEMBER SIMON:
open, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
ladies?
Yeah. Keep the hearing
So we'll leave the
45
MRS. HUGHES:
until April 23?
BOARD ASST.:
date.
The next meeting is not
The next available hearing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The next -- no.
Our next meeting is booked and the March
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and, you know, hopefully by that time, you
know, if you don't have the affidavit from Mr.
Caminiti or if he says, hey, by the way, Mrs.
Hughes I'm coming back by April, okay, you
know, we'll just reconvene it in April and
that would be the way to go. I think April is
our next date, isn't it?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, April 23.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: April 23rd, okay, so
probably by then you probably could have the
affidavit or whatever.
MRS. HUGHES: Your next meeting is not
until April 23?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The what?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
know why the
That's all.
I have.
meeting is booked and we're just booked.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just ask a
question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to clarify,
you know, Mr. Caminiti, your lawyer thing is
one and the other question is I just want to
trailer permit was refused.
Those are the two questions that
MRS. HUGHES: Well, the day that I went
to the Town Clerk's Office I had the trailer
permit in my hand from the previous owner and
a woman -- I mean, I apologize that I didn't
get the woman's name because afterwards I
probably really should have had the woman's
name -- but she came to the counter and I
explained that I recently bought this property
and I wanted to renew the trailer permit and
she ripped this piece of paper out of my hand,
stomped to the back of the room, threw it in
the copy machine, made a copy of it, came back
to me, threw it across the counter at me and
said you can't renew it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So, what --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. HUGHES: That's what it got, so I
was upset and I left and went directly to Paul
Caminiti's office and said this is what I did
and this is how I was treated and that's when
he told me that he really didn't think that I
needed to renew the trailer permit since I had
CO on it and I really left it at that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, well you -- I
don't know what's stopping you then today from
just going over there and asking them to renew
the trailer permit; is there something that's
stopping you from that?
MRS. HUGHES: I guess I'm confused as to
why I need a trailer permit if I have a CO --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, again, that's
right. Right, if you're saying that your
permit that you had an existing trailer for
that you had an existing permit and they
refused to renew that permit, I think we need
to know why because we wouldn't be here
because of that.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, my question though
is that this permit that existed that they
wouldn't renew was on the previous trailer,
which is no longer there; is that correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MRS. HUGHES: It was on the previous
trailer, in the previous owner's name.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's not clear how much
bearing that decision made by the Building
clerk has to do with the case we have before
MRS. HUGHES:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. HUGHES:
I didn't --
-- which is a new trailer.
I didn't even get into her
-- I didn't even discuss with her that it
wasn't the same trailer.
MEMBER SIMON: No, no. What I'm getting
at is regardless, the fact is that there is a
new trailer and it does not have a C of O and
that's what you want.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think we're making an
assumption here, Michael, that the person who
said what the applicant alleges is refusing
the permit for what reason.
know what the process is.
MRS. HUGHES: I think,
I just want to
at the time, my
understanding of it was was that the permit
was not renewable from the previous owner to
me.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, then my question is
if she had gotten the -- if the permit had
been renewed for the earlier trailer, that
would not have survived the replacement of
that other trailer in any case, so you'd still
be before us.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you're right,
Michael. I would like to honestly hear from
two people. I would like to hear from a
person in the Town who is familiar with
permitting mobile trailers in the Town. I'd
like to hear from that person as a witness who
would explain to us --
MRS. HUGHES: Who would that be?
BOARD ASST.: Town Clerk.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, that could
explain to us what that procedure is when
someone walks up to the building -- walks up
to that window and says I want to renew my
permit, what is the actual process cause I'm
unfamiliar with it and then, number two, I'd
just like, again, to get something from Mr.
Caminiti that it's his opinion that says that
Town law says that if you have a mobile -- a
trailer on a piece of property that has a CO,
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ZBA Town of Southold
5O
January 8, 2009
it doesn't need a permit. Those two things
are the only things that I would like to hear
and, you know, we could hear that in the next
hearing.
MRS. HUGHES: I understand that and when
I went to the Town Clerk's office if the clerk
had came back to me and said the permit's not
renewable from the old owner to the new owner
and here you need to fill out this form and
bring it back to us, but that's not how I was
treated. It was thrown back, it was ripped
out of my hands and then thrown back at me,
and that's how I was treated and I guess this
is the question as to why people do things
that they do because when they come and they
try to do things, I was trying to go along the
proper way of continuing what was already
there and I was given no explanation, no help
in doing so and was just treated -- no one
should be treated that way by somebody who's
supposed to be working for us. She's a Town
employee, she works for us.
BOARD ASST.:
anything?
MRS. HUGHES:
They didn't say why or
No. It's not renewable,
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
across the counter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so then we're
looking for three things at this point; is
that correct, Jim?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I want those two
questions answered, Mr. Caminiti and, you
know, I want to know how the process goes with
the permit, that's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right and we have -
BOARD ASST.: What was the other thing
you just said?
MEMBER DINIZIO: The permit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The permit.
BOARD ASST.: Which permit, the trailer
permit?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The trailer permit.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'd like to have
an expert tell me -- tell us what --
BOARD ASST.: Someone to attend and also
a copy of the permit, that's three things.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The next one is the
Building Inspector.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, the Building
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Inspector.
MRS. HUGHES: And who is the current
Building Inspector?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael Verity,
Chief Building Inspector. We will ask him on
that, I mean, you certainly speak to him, but
we're going to ask him to attend that hearing.
MRS. HUGHES: You'll do that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: It takes, we have time, so
we'll do it in writing and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
just get this straight before we
hearing. You do want a representative from
the Building Department?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
set on this?
MEMBER WEISMAN: And somebody from the
Town Clerk as well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
need it. Okay.
Is there anyone else would like to speak
for or against this application before I
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Now, let me
adjourn this
Alright, are we all
Yes, we're going to
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
adjourn this hearing to April 23?
What's your guestimated time on that one?
BOARD ASST.: The adjourn date is April
23rd, I would make the time at 1:30 in the
afternoon.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Ladies and
gentlemen, I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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54
ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6228 -Diane Mulvaney and
Betty J. Bresloff
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-18, based on the applicant's request for a
lot-line change and the Building Inspector's
Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed
lot area for 1000-31-8-12.4, at 225 Marion
Lane, which lot will become less conforming by
reducing its size from 34,194 square feet to
30,448 square feet in total size, and
concerning 1000-31-8-13 at 30 Bay Avenue, East
Marion, which lot will become more conforming
by increasing its size from 8,340 square feet
to 12,086 square feet."
Okay, want to make an explanation?
MS. MULVANEY: Good morning.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Hi.
MS. MULVANEY: I'm Diane Mulvaney. My
request is much more boring than the others
We'll be the judge of
before me.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Who is the young lady
with you?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MS. MULVANEY: This is Betty Bresloff.
MS. BRESLOFF: Betty Bresloff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
BOARD ASST.: I just need to ask you to
speak a little bit louder.
MS. MULVANEY: Okay, sorry.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Basically, I'll just go
over it with you. You want to add some
footage to one lot to make it larger and
you're going to take that away from another
lot that you both own. You own both of these
pieces of property?
MS. MULVANEY: I
MEMBER DINIZIO:
own 225 Marion Lane.
Right.
MS. MULVANEY: Which was originally, well
it still is, a flag lot, but prior to -- the
pole part of the flag was the access to the
property prior to the road being cut in, which
is about three-quarters of the width of this
room, which was cut 30-odd years ago. Okay,
so at that time when the road came in then the
pole part of the property just became lawn and
split rail fence was installed, which will
remain. Her property -- so then you come in
Marion this way, which is adjacent to her
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
property, it looks like -- it actually looks
like it's her side yard, but it's my property.
So all I want to do
MEMBER OLIVA:
MS. MULVANEY:
ownership. It has no
environmental impact.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
is change the line.
Yeah.
So it's a change in
structural impact
Right, so --
56
and no
MS. MULVANEY: Nobody would be the wiser
if it wasn't for the fact of this hearing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're getting rid of
the pole; am I correct?
She's
Transferring it.
Transferring it.
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. MULVANEY:
going to -- yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So she's -- right, so
makes the two more square and --
MS. MULVANEY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Alright, so it
used to be a right of way and now you don't
right of way since you have
need to have that
a road.
MS. MULVANEY:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it's pretty simple.
Correct.
Alright, you're right,
That's all I have.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only thing I
was a little mystified with is the exact
amount of square footage.
Mark, could I ask you to close that door
there, please?
I calculated the square footage at -- let
me just see here, somehow at 3750 square feet
and you said it was around 3600 square feet,
so that's just my calculations on it. If the
Board is so inclined to deal with this
application, which I'm sure we probably are,
and we're going to need to know the exact
square footage and we're going to need to see
the survey on that.
MS. MULVANEY: You have it.
BOARD ASST.: Actually, I believe we have
that in the office and there are three
different surveys and they did get it verified
by the surveyor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, the latest one is
the Notice of Disapproval, right? The latest
survey in the file makes that lot, the new
lot, 12,086, correct..
BOARD ASST.: 086, that's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MS. MULVANEY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So that's the new
survey, the latest survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll subtract that
then and see how close I am to that.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But in any case
we're going to need a survey from the -- to
the receiving parcel --
MS. MULVANEY: That was done.
BOARD ASST.: They've done all that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have all that?
MS. MULVANEY: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, it was all
done.
BOARD ASST.: The file is apart right
now, but I can show you or I can get that map
for you, whatever you like.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's all
I'm saying, okay, and that's the only question
I had.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no questions,
just to say that I see also that the Planning
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Board has written to us to --
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- inform us that they
support this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is correct,
thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I just want the
entered for the record. I don't see where
this would have any visual or any impact at
all other than the fact that your lot, the
Bresloff lot, becomes a little bit bigger and
yours becomes squared off, the Mulvaney lot,
becomes squared off. As long as we have the
right numbers, which I think we have actually,
there's no problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you still have to
go to Planning Board, right?
MS. MULVANEY: Yes.
MS. BRESLOFF: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So,
going to confirm it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
you know, they're
They do the lot line
change, we just allow for the nonconformity.
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ZBA Town of Southold
60
January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you ladies
are still standing there, we'll see if anybody
else would like to speak for or against this
application. Please don't leave until we
close this hearing.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application?
Very good. Seeing no hands, we
appreciate you coming in, I'll offer a
resolution to close the hearing, reserve
decision until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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61
ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6241 - Robert Bergamini
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's October
17, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed deck addition at less than the code-
required minimum front yard setback of 35 feet
and lot coverage exceeding the code limitation
of 20% on this nonconforming +/-.31 acre lot,
at 4050 Camp Mineola Road, Mattituck; CTM 123-
5-20."
It will be 22 percent according to the
plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please state your
name for the record?
MRS. BERGAMINI: Excuse me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
the record.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Margaret Bergamini.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you?
MEMBER SIMON: Would you tell us --
summarize your case for this variance.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Okay, I have a deck on
the front of my house and I just wanted to
extend the deck a little bit over, 10 feet
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
over, but caddy-corner to put a door in there,
which my son's bedroom is there and I thought
it would be good to have an egress for him.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, excuse me, is this
the west side of the deck?
MRS. BERGAMINI: It's the west side of
the deck.
MEMBER SIMON: It's not the part which
has the railing, that's the east side of the
deck, right? The deck wraps around the house.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Correct, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's only this caddy
corner, it's only this corner of the deck?
MRS. BERGAMINI: Right, just to
accommodate the door to my son's bedroom.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Because when I put new
windows in my bedroom, which is in the back
which is really a, you know, it's really
stuffed in the back, if there were a fire I
wouldn't be able to get out. So I put a big
window in there so I could jump out and I
said, you know, we should put something in my
son's room and a door would fit nice and I
just think that's a good thing.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: So does this addition
reduce any setbacks, overall setbacks or
increase it? In other words, it doesn't
extend or make any part of the house any
closer to the road than it was before?
MRS. BERGAMINI: No, it doesn't. It
doesn't affect that at all.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
We see this, we've been there. I'm
reviewing this for the record in a way.
MRS. BERGAMINI:
MEMBER SIMON:
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay.
I don't have any further
Ail you're going to be
doing really is making the front deck
syrmmetrical. You're rebuilding it as it is
and you just want to add that little wedge-
shaped 90 degree angle with the little --
MRS. BERGAMINI: Right. It would make it
symmetrical, but the main purpose was --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
proposed door.
MRS. BERGAMINI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Access through the
Right.
Yeah, you're not -- it's
very heavily screened from your neighbor by
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January 8, 2009
existing shrubs
MRS. BERGAMINI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
on any side yard or
already.
Very.
You're not encroaching
front yard and it's a
very, very small -- what is the size of this
thing? It's like 700 -- 75 square feet for
this little wedge-shaped additional piece for
access. Okay, I don't have any problems or
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: Just a further comment,
the only reason why it's making such a
difference in lot coverage is because the lot
is so tiny.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Yeah, you know what, I
think that's really funny cause I think my
house to the property, you know, to the empty
property looks like, you know, small house,
big piece of empty land when I look at the
other houses on my block. They're big houses
and they have hardly any land around them.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. BERGAMINI: So I didn't think it was
such a big issue.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no doubt
that the houses across the street are on much
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January 8, 2009
smaller pieces of property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, and they're bigger
houses.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're bigger
houses.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have any
questions. Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: No. It's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This will be open
to the sky, this deck, it's not going to be
enclosed in any way, it will not be a porch
over --
MRS. BERGAMINI: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you
very much. Don't leave until we close the
hearing, please.
MRS. BERGAMINI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6233 - Ronald Zito
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
August 25, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning an as-built outdoor shower addition
to the single-family dwelling which is less
than 10 feet on a single side yard, less than
15 feet on the opposite side yard, resulting
in less than 25 feet for a total of both side
yards, at 1185 Bungalow Lane, Mattituck; CTM
123-3-16."
The issue here is that there is this
shower that is extending I guess it's
something like 7 feet from the line on the
side that's opposite to where the porch is
being built. They wouldn't be here if it were
just the porch, it's the shower. How long ago
was the shower built?
MRS. ZITO: In '81.
MEMBER SIMON: It's been there a while,
okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you give your
name for the record?
MR. SCHWARTZ: That's Mrs. Zito.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SCHWARTZ:
BOARD ASST.:
Your name is?
Mark Schwartz.
Thank you.
MRS. ZITO: I'm Patricia.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pleasure.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, this shower has been
there for more than 20 years. The question is
how this happens to come before us now, I
assume it has something to do with the fact
that you got a building permit for the porch
and someone -- and the Building Inspector
noticed it; is that --
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, actually what
happened is we began construction without a
permit, there was a stop-work order.
MEMBER SIMON: I see.
MR. SCHWARTZ: And, at that point,
we
applied at the Building Department, got the
disapproval for this project, we did get the
approvals from the Town Trustees and the DEC
for the work on the proposed expansion of the
porch and that's how we're here.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright, so you didn't
require a variance, but you require a variance
for the expansion on the porch?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the side yard
requirements are 10 and 15. We have the 10 on
that side and we don't have 15 on the other
side, so it depends on which side you're
looking at.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I understand. Thank
you, that helps.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But you've indicated
that you're willing to remove that outdoor
shower, which will then create a 7-foot side
yard for a total side yard setback of 22 feet
where the Code requires 25 feet.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, the expansion
of the existing porch consists of
approximately 63 square feet?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, it does.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You already have LWRP
exemption and Trustees' approval and the porch
extension is on the flat part of the property.
The property slopes toward the water, but
beyond the house and it's very -- it's already
screened by the stockade fence and some
existing shrubbery from the neighbors. I
think that characterizes everything.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Construction is landward of the setback, the
existing setback. I think with the removal of
the shed and shower you will have adequate
side yards on both sides for emergency access
to the seaward side of the house and it looks
very straightforward. It's not going to have
any visual impact on the neighbors or the road
and no environmental impact that I can see.
So I don't have a problem or questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
questions. I probably went on the most
beastly day to go over there. It was like
unbelievable and still Deep Hole Creek looked
as beautiful as ever.
MRS. ZITO: When we moved to Mattituck we
had three children and now we have three
grandchildren, so the house is kind of a
little bit small and we thought because we use
the side porch so much just to have a little
bit more space for them and their space that's
why we wanted to do this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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January 8, 2009
MRS. ZITO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Don't leave before
the hearing is closed, please.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving the decision
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6238 - Jacqueline Moskowitz
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Location of Property: 80 Lakeside Drive
and Cedar Point Drive, Southold; CTM 1000-90-
3-14. Request for Variances on this 14,118
square foot lot, under Zoning Code Sections
280-122 and 280-124, based on applications for
building permits and the Building Inspector's
August 22, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a pergola, fence height, swimming
pool, and as-built carport structure, for the
reasons that:
(1) the proposed pergola to be added to
the dwelling structure is not
permitted because such
additions/alternation will
constitute an increase in the degree
of nonconformance (nonconforming
rear yard setback and front yard
setback), see ZBA #3225 of August
14, 1984;
{2) the fence is not allowed as per
Conditions under ZBA #3950 dated
July 11, 1990 which states: the
fence and any screening shall not
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
exceed 4 ft. 6 in. in height in
front yard areas above grade, the
area beginning at a point of 30 feet
from the corner of Cedar Point Drive
to 30 feet from the corner of
Lakeside Drive shall remain open and
un-vegetated;
(3) the existing swimming pool under
Building Permit #19275 issued
9/2/1990 is located at less than the
required minimum of 22 feet under
ZBA# 3950 dated 7/11/1990;
(4) the existing carport shows setbacks
from each the front yard and the
rear yard at less than the code-
required minimum of 35 feet."
Okay, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just give me one
second while I open this map up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Tell us how you want to
look at those or how you want us to --
MR. LEHNERT: I'm going to go through
those piece by piece.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Just state your name,
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January 8, 2009
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please.
MR. LEHNERT:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. LEHNERT:
- Are we ready?
BOARD ASST.:
ahead.
MR. LEHNERT:
Rob Lehnert.
Peconic Expediting.
Peconic Expediting.
Okay -
One second. Okay, go
Okay, the pergola. Yes, we
are increasing the nonconformance on that
section of the lot with the proposed pergola,
but it's going to sit atop a previously
approved deck and it's not exceeding the
setbacks or the dimensions of the approved
deck. The pergola is open to the sky, which
makes the scale of the structure a lot less
than if they wanted to go with a screen porch
or actually a building in its place and it's
probably one of the most aesthetically
pleasing solutions because that deck, I'm sure
you were there, you know, in the summertime
the sun just beats on it, which, after the
fact, they discovered they weren't using it
because of that. So we proposed a pergola.
The fence. When the fence was
constructed at the time of the last
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
application when they installed the pool, the
trees around the property, those evergreen
trees were a lot lower, they were just
planted. Over time the trees grew larger, as
you know, evergreen trees as they grew taller
the bottoms tend to thin out. Whatever was
left at the bottom was been decimated by the
deer. The deer run rampant down there. So
what my clients would like to do is replace
that chainlink fence with a section of privacy
fence. A wood fence approximately 6 feet high
and they also would like, you know, they want
to revegetate the road
keep, you know, what's
pleasing. The 30-feet
side of the fence to
there now aesthetically
setback from the road
from the original variance like we said the
proposed fence is going to go in the exact
same location as the fence now. So we're
going to conform to that from the previous
variance.
The swimming pool. This was before my
time. They had the approval to build the
swimming pool, it's two feet in the wrong
place. So there's no excuse for that one.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Carport. The property is a weird shape,
it sits on two corners. Really, anything we
propose on this property would require us to
come before you for a variance. As you know,
the front yard setback in the area is 35 feet.
The carport sits 25.7 feet back from the
property line, but the property line, if you
look at the survey and the map, sits
approximately 15 feet back from the road, it's
a narrow dirt road. So, therefore, we looked
at the carport as not a major addition to the
house and, again, it's open, it's not living
space.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm a little
confused about the difference between the
fencing area and the property lines. The
fencing that you're proposing, going back to
that, is within the property line?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's shown as
those "Xs" as we see it on the site plan?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes. As you see it on the
site plan. We're going to replace that
chainlink fence with privacy fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MR. LEHNERT: That's the proposal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The chainlink fence
is right now outside the property line?
MR. LEHNERT: No, the chainlink fence is
inside the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the
replacement of that chainlink fence is inside
the property line.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is -- what am
I looking at on the survey by John C. Ehlers
when I see the "Xs" outside the property line?
MR. LEHNERT: There's an existing fence
outside the property line that we're looking
to remove.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and that's the
wooden fence?
MR. LEHNERT: That's the chainlink fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the
chainlink fence.
MR. LEHNERT: With the wooden fence it's
going to be inside the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. LEHNERT: It's going to be actually
on our property, that's the proposal.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And when you say 6-
foot stockade fence, excuse me, Leslie again
for taking over, I'm just trying to reconcile
this in my own mind, you are referring to a
wooden stockade --
MR. LEHNERT: A wooden cedar fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it going to be
an ornamental fence?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What kind of fence
is it going to be?
MR. LEHNERT: It's going to be an
ornamental cedar privacy fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, how will that
impede traffic coming out of Lakeside Drive?
MR. LEHNERT: It actually won't because
if you look at right now all those plantings,
all those trees are outside the existing
fence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Um-hmm.
MR. LEHNERT: We're not going to move
those, we're not changing those.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. LEHNERT: So by bringing it back onto
the property line, it's going to be not only
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
within what the Zoning Board granted the last
time, the 30 feet back from the road, it's
going to be closer than that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Now --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I continue, Gerry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I just
had to reconcile that in my own mind, I know -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the swimming pool
is an error as to where it --
MR. LEHNERT: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You just want the CO on
it.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Carport is, you know,
as-built. It's there. The only -- the real
question that I've got and the pergola as
proposed is not -- doesn't have a huge impact,
but it is a very odd lot and it does have two
front yards. Now I drove up and down both
Lakeside and Cedar Point Drive, there's a huge
deer problem there; however, I did not see one
other stockade fence anywhere. They're all
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
dealing with the deer the same way you are,
which is with deer fencing and hedgerow.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So in most respects,
it's very much outside the character of this
neighborhood to have that kind of a fence. So
MR. LEHNERT: But by putting it back
behind all the existing trees, the existing
plantings, you're hardly going to see this
from the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you're going to --
you say you're going to revegetate. I mean we
could condition it that way, but then there
are all of the bottoms of those evergreens are
eaten up.
MR. LEHNERT:
they've grown up.
They're eaten up and
MEMBER WEISMAN: Plus you can see through
during this time of the year --
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- because it's not all
-- some of it is deciduous.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is not all
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
evergreens.
MR. LEHNERT: In the suramertime you can't
see the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, you can't -- I'm
sure that's true. You can sort of take care
of this with a much less -- even though you
have evergreens proposed on roadside, you're
still going to see that fence. You're going
to see it, okay
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you have two front
yards here and you're talking about a lot of
linear feet of fencing. So is there anything
you can say to me to tell me why this should
be okay on this property and no other people
who are dealing with the deer problems in the
neighborhood are before us trying to do the
same thing in their front yard?
MR. LEHNERT: Well, other than the deer
problem, they are on two front yards, so every
time someone drives through there at night
with their headlights on, it's shining right
into the living room of the house, that's one
of the other problems.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
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MR. LEHNERT: Okay, especially this time
of the year. In the summertime, not as much.
Like I said, you can't see it, and the pool is
in the front yard because of the lot. So
they're looking for more privacy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I make a
suggestion?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can stain the
fence, hopefully, it'll be a fence that will
have two good sides.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, with the
center columns on both ends, okay, not affixed
to those, but affixed on the ends.
MR. LEHNERT: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And stain the side
that's closest to the road a darker brown and
it wouldn't be as
MR. LEHNERT:
problem with that.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
MEMBER SIMON:
noticeable.
We wouldn't have any
May I?
I don't have any
The -- this fence is and
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
part of the justification for this fence is to
keep the deer out.
MR. LEHNERT: Part of it.
MEMBER SIMON: On the other hand, you
call it a privacy fence and then if you say
that it's a privacy fence and then you talk
about -- you say that you won't be able to see
the fence from the road, one wonders what the
need is of the privacy fence if you weighed
that, so to speak, by that argument. Now, I
guess the question is do you see any other way
of keeping the deer out short of a stockade
fence, which is, as Leslie pointed out, not
typical of what people do in that
neighborhood.
MR. LEHNERT: No, as we all know you
could have high deer fences and that still
doesn't really help the situation.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. LEHNERT: What we're trying to do
here is, you know, (a) keep the deer out, (b)
gain privacy without having to go back and
really tear up the property. I mean we could
go in there and put a berm up and plant up and
that's all within our rights. They don't want
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January 8, 2009
to do that, they don't want to go tearing up
the property. If you look around the pool
there's also the nice brick patio and that's
part of the proposal why we asked to bring the
fence back onto our property instead of
keeping it off on the roadside like it is now.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay,
kind of a --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I
you approach for a minute?
I see that we have
do -- Rob, could
I want to make
sure that Gerry's question was adequately
answered also. On this survey, alright,
here's the existing cyclone fence.
MR. LEHNERT: That's the fence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I think Gerry was
seeing this dark line as the property line
when, in fact, is it this?
MR. LEHNERT: No, this is the property
line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the property
line, so it's outside of the property line.
MR. LEHNERT: It's outside of the
property line, the existing cyclone fence.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But you haven't shown
where the proposed is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. LEHNERT: I did on my site plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh alright. Let me go
look at that.
MR. LEHNERT: The proposed site plan that
Michael's got there's a proposed fence inside
the property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Here is it, gotcha.
Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But you want it all the
way, don't you? You're proposing it all the
way around?
MR. LEHNERT: On there --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, yes it is, it's
right here.
MR. LEHNERT: That preexisting fence is
to go. This is the fence over here and we
have to make this attach to the house
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's just here and
here that you're talking about?
MR. LEHNERT: That's what we're looking
at.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're reduce --
you're eliminating some --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. LEHNERT: Eliminating all that fence
that's outside of the property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So then how does that
control deer from these directions?
MR. LEHNERT: There's a fence over here -
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a little stockade
fence, a low one that --
MR. LEHNERT: -- that's along here. They
want to plant this really nice and leave it
nice.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it looks to me like,
primarily then, the issue is privacy from the
road for the pool and to --
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- create a more
luxurious vegetated yard.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, because if you're
not doing a complete containment, you're not
controlling deer. Alright, at least I got it
clear.
MEMBER SIMON: I would add --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Gerry, do you see the
difference? See what he's (inaudible)?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER SIMON:
are concerns with the effects on the
neighborhood and the copy-cat phenomenon,
you will --
MR. LEHNERT:
MEMBER SIMON:
I would add again since we
Um-hmm.
-- the traffic from
if
footnote, if there are no neighbors who are
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the same.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: And, of course, just as a
passing cars given that these are private
roads, is not a major problem --
MR. LEHNERT: No.
MEMBER SIMON: -- in a way and the
specter that might be concerned is we have
this rather isolated neighborhood which will
have a domino effect and everybody will have
stockade fences along the road possibly within
that neighborhood on the basis of this
particular precedent and I think that that is
something that we will have to consider and
that's why I asked you is there any other way
of achieving the goals that you want without
having the stockade fence, which is, in
effect, an invitation to other people to do
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
concerned to indicate their view on this, they
may very well be watching this case to see
whether they can do the same and that's
something that we should think about now
rather than later on.
MR. LEHNERT: Well, we wouldn't have a
problem if you put restrict, you know,
planting restrictions on top of that for the
outside of the fence, which would help
mitigate that problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's talk types of
greenery.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Leland Cyprus or something like that.
MR. LEHNERT: Something that'll last down
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, and --
MR. LEHNERT: That water table is pretty
close.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, but I mean
they're usually, generally, the greenery that
the deer don't eat;
MR. LEHNERT:
touch the Cyprus.
evergreens.
You're only talking
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is that not correct?
That's correct, they don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: No, they'll eat.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They'll eat anything if
they're hungry enough.
MR. LEHNERT: They're hungry enough.
MEMBER OLIVA: They'll eat anything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean we're
talking substantial amounts of Leland Cyprus
to go around this entire area.
MR. LEHNERT: They don't have a problem
with plantings --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And keeping them
maintained?
MR. LEHNERT: -- and keeping them
maintained. I mean, if that would be a
condition of the fence that would be
acceptable to my clients.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I have no objection to
the fence, but I guess the plantings would not
go on your property then, right?
MR. LEHNERT: No, they wouldn't be on our
property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're on the
road.
MR. LEHNERT: They're on the road.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So they'd be on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
right of way?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
right of way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
too.
Which they own the
other people do,
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't know how we can
require them to have plantings in a right of
way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You get permission
from the association.
MR. LEHNERT: We can do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then it's subject
to that.
MR. LEHNERT: Subject to and if you look,
you know, the road is so far away from even
where the fence is now --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, uniquely, you
have it there already so everybody knows what
it looks like.
MR. LEHNERT: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not like
you're instituting a new thing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. LEHNERT:
empty lot.
BOARD ASST.:
be, procedurally,
Yeah, we're not planting an
But then my question would
if you cannot get approval
from the association,
to remove that condition.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
not put up the fence.
then you have to reapply
Or remove the -- or
BOARD ASST.: Or not put up the fence and
send a letter or something like that.
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, I agree, (inaudible)
is not going to keep the deer out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Even though no one
else is here, we still have to ask the
question.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Seeing no hands,
I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6234 - Theodore E. Prahlow
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-124 concerning this 7,700 square foot
parcel, and based on the Building Inspector's
August 22, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed deck and porch additions
to the existing single-family dwelling, which
new construction will be less than the code-
required minimum of 35 feet for a rear yard
setback and which exceeds the code-maximum
limitation of 20% lot coverage, at 1605 Old
Shipyard Lane, Southold; CTM 64-5-30."
According to the application, the
proposed rear yard setback after the -- well,
the house is conforming at the moment, the
rear deck additions will be creating a 27-foot
rear yard setback. The lot coverage is
currently 20 percent, no, it's going to be
25.3 percent with a proposed rear yard and
front yard porch additions and, actually, as I
understand it, the house was a modular home
that was placed on this property.
MRS. MOORE: It is, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The rear yard is pretty
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
small and is that odd little piece owned by
the neighbor in the back.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So my question is it's
very clear that it was always going to have
something on the rear of the house because
there are doors there. It would be quite
dangerous to fall out of.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it's difficult to walk
out. Yes, it would be.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The question that I have
actually is why was this not considered
relative to lot coverage at the original, you
know, when the original building permit was
applied for?
MRS. MOORE: Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, you have
to state your name first.
MRS. MOORE: I guess I should state my
name first.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, I'm sorry.
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore for the
applicant. I have Mr. and Mrs. Prahlow here
today. I'm actually very familiar with this
property cause I live around the corner. So
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
I've watched, I guess, I know this property.
It had in fact been very, I don't know if any
of you are familiar with it, but a very
dilapidated house that I was personally very
pleased when the house was no longer. The old
house was removed and an application was made
to improve this property. The difficulty is,
as you know, when you're ordering for modulars
you have certain limitations on the design of
modulars and when you have a narrow lot, you
have, you know, a narrow footprint and it kind
of blows the house out a little bit on the
back. So it was just a question of what was
available as a modular home on this site.
The property had actually been -- the
original proposed, the original intent of the
owner was that the house would be so much
closer to the street, but as it turned out
because of the Health Department requiring --
this house required all new sanitary
approvals, the Health Department required very
shallow -- multiple shallow wells and so the
entire front yard ended up being covered with
the sanitary system. So it required the house
to be pushed back.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
The -- you anticipate that the lot
coverage, being such a small, you know,
7,000
small,
house.
it's a
square foot, the house itself is a
relatively speaking, relatively small
Again, as a modular you have
limitations there. The lot coverage where it
throws you off is that these modular, I mean,
the modular could stay as it is, at least in
the front yard, but it's not as attractive as
it would be with a front porch. They're --
again, modulars have limitations in
architectural style and they want to add a
small front porch which then
increase in the lot coverage.
The back deck we need a
triggers the
deck, we need a
back deck and it seemed to me that going along
the length of the back of the house did not
seem like an unreasonable request, but if you
need to cut us back we're willing to discuss
it. It just seemed that a, given the size of
the property, that the requested variance was
relatively minor in relation to the
surrounding community because my familiarity
with this neighborhood is that many of the
smaller lots have homes that are very close to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
if not exceeding lot coverage limitations. So
it is somewhat the character of the
neighborhood. We have a year-round community
here. There are a lot of people that are here
year-round and this is their principle
residence, as it is my clients' principle
residence. So to be your full-time house, to
exceed a lot coverage by this amount seemed to
me a small, a reasonable request, whether or
not it's small or large, whatever, it's up to
the Board, ultimately.
We also don't have the ability to have a
foundation here because, surprisingly, even
though we're not really close to the water,
there are some old creeks that have long time
been filled in, but the Flood Zone still lists
it as a flood area. So this house originally
was going to have a full basement, which
certainly, maybe not this house, but a house
here would have had a full basement and, as it
turned out, the basement was eliminated and
now it's a five-foot crawl space. So the
living space for this house is essentially the
house that you see with the five-foot crawl
space underneath for some minimal storage
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January 8, 2009
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space.
So it is the
that, in a sense,
constraints of this property
can push us into a small lot
coverage request and as far as rear yard
setback, as I pointed out, the house was
originally -- my client wanted it much closer
to the street, but because of sanitary
regulations and setbacks for the sanitary, it
had to be pushed back and the Health
Department regulations require that sanitary
be placed in the front yard not in the rear
yard. So we didn't have that option either
because we did talk about that
possibility so that would give
and the Health Department does
as a
us some space
not generally
want to see that, if you can conform, they
want you to conform. So the conforming
location for the sanitary was the front yard.
MEMBER SIMON: You've done a good job, I
think, of explaining why it should be the way
you want it to be, but you haven't really
answered Leslie's question of why didn't you
make these arguments at the time the
application was originally made given those
arguments surely would have been as compelling
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ZBA Town of Southold
97
January 8, 2009
then as they are now before you went ahead and
built a house which cries out for a deck which
wasn't applied for in the first place and now
you want the variance. It's kind of an as-
built situation, as I see it.
MRS. MOORE:
back yard, but --
MEMBER SIMON:
Well, you need a deck in the
No, the question is why
didn't you apply in the first place?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Understand, I didn't
apply, my client had a building permit that
has been in the process a long time.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: I'm getting involved in the
Zoning application. I think that with
consulting the Building Department they felt
that it was a relatively minor request.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry, what was a
minor request?
MRS. MOORE: A deck in the rear yard.
MEMBER SIMON: They got a Notice of
Disapproval, so how you --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, no, no. What I'm saying
is that when you combine the front porch to
give it architectural character and the rear
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ZBA Town of Southold
98
January 8, 2009
deck, it puts it into a lot coverage issue.
The house itself, the Building Department said
no problem, you can build this house, it
conforms. Then, when my client needed a back
deck because of its height, that's when he had
to come in for a variance and it's just
timing. He needed a house to live in and he
didn't have the luxury of coming in for all
the variances before he built there and, you
know, am I correct?
I remember you calling me when the
sanitary situation -- as I recall I got
involved early, not with this issue, but they
were having problems with the Health
Department because it was taking forever to
get the sanitary approval. So I think this is
just given the size of the property and the
house itself is conforming, as you said, they
got a building permit and this is their
primary house. They had the choice of either
building this house immediately or living in a
mobile home. You saw the mobile home that was
there, that was their choice at the time. So
they felt that given the options they needed
to get that house, the house when you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
dealing with modular homes you have to pay
them and they have a date for delivery.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: You have to have everything
in place, so --
MEMBER SIMON: So the question would be
if the, you probably can't answer this at this
moment, if the Board were to decide that they
had to have either one deck, but not two decks
or that the deck or decks be significantly
reduced in size, I mean one of the problems
for the rear deck is not only is it an 8-foot
deck, which is not an outrageously large deck,
but then there's this fairly long stairway,
which could not have been anticipated
originally, down into the backyard, it becomes
a fairly substantial change and whether this
could be mitigated somehow by certain kinds of
revisions of this plan.
MRS. MOORE: Uh --
MEMBER SIMON: The plan they present is a
major lot coverage variance.
MRS. MOORE: Um, for a 7,000 -- that's a
matter of your opinion.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, what I mean is --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I've certainly applied for a
lot more and a lot different.
MEMBER SIMON: We're talking about a 25
percent variance with regard to lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes, but it is a 7,700
square foot lot, so when you're, you know, one
foot is equivalent to 10 percent.
MEMBER SIMON:
variance.
MRS. MOORE:
Yes, it's still 25 percent
Okay. Understand that they
need to get a CO to be able to live here.
They need an access out the backdoor. It's a
long stair because as I mentioned before they
had to raise the house in order to meet the
Flood Zone requirement. So they have to get
out of the backdoor somehow, someway. There
is a slider and it -- when I looked at this I
thought, gosh, this -- I live in the
neighborhood. I have a house behind me that
has an elevated deck with a pool that is an
above ground pool in my house and I can
testify personally I have a 70s ranch. I did
an addition and I have a deck that has to be
elevated, again, because my house has to be
raised.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
The backyards of all these properties
tend to slope down because, as I said, there
used to be an old creek bed that ran back
there. My house was (inaudible) houses in
there since the 70s and so my, personally, my
house has a deck that is probably much larger
than this. It is a normal living amenity for
a house. It did not seem to be that, given
the character of the neighborhood, every --
most of the houses in the back have rear
decks, or at least houses that are of more
current vintage and the older houses are going
to find, as this one did, that you can't
modify it. You have to essentially demolish
them and start over because you don't meet the
Flood Zone and that's just because of the
flood regulations. They've taken the whole
Terry Lane, Hobart, that area and put us in
the Flood Zone. The fact is that we're
probably 800 to 1000 feet from the water
itself, but it doesn't seem to matter.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Let me ask a couple of
Sure.
The rear elevation as
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
drawn on the set of plans that we have shows a
two-car garage, presumably that is not there
and is that going to happen?
MRS. MOORE: No. He had a -- well, he
had a, I think, he had a permit for it, but
the cost, you know, right now budget-wise they
don't have the money to do it. So eventually
they would have to cut an opening in the back
wall to put the car underneath rather than
build a detached garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That was an option.
There wouldn't be lot
There wouldn't be any
room, really, and lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Right. Then we'd be here
for lot coverage issue again. So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, well I just
wanted to verify because what we've got is the
two decks.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes. Well, remember
the front porch gives --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm talking about the
rear now.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: The
one deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
story --
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE: Oh,
second story balcony,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
rear is one deck. It's
The rear has a second
The --
I'm sorry, with the
yes. I'm sorry.
The rear has a second
story deck off of the bedroom.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and then above
grade, but the first livable floor --
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
underneath it.
right.
-- with another deck
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And a fairly long set of
steps that come out because it's such a --
MRS. MOORE: It's
could redesign it, the
UNIDENTIFIED: It
just a high, I mean we
steps are really --
could be a spiral.
MRS. MOORE: It could be a spiral
staircase? Yeah, the deck was just the
surveyor put what was existing condition and
then showed the deck in the back. We're -- we
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
can design any set of stairs, if you tell us,
you know, put a spiral staircase that goes
within the boundaries
deck --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
of the proposed back
Well, to be perfectly
honest, a spiral staircase as emergency egress
is not a good idea.
MRS. MOORE: There is a --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very hard to
negotiate. I mean if there is a fire, God
forbid, and you needed to get out of your
bedroom or your living room or whatever,
that's not the best access.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But the other question I
had was the deck on the front as proposed is
8-foot deep by the width of the house, 27.6.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yes, it's a -- yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, that is more an
aesthetic than a functional thing.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now you have a rear
yard. You're probably not going to be sitting
out on the front porch a great deal.
MRS. MOORE: It is nice. I mean, I sit
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on mine, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: But since it's not so
much about access and egress --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and you can do that
by steps right now, anyway.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reducing proposed lot
depth of that?
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
problem; is it? No.
The possibility of
coverage by reducing the
I don't think that's a
I'm just trying to
think, I mean you could cut off two feet off
of that easily and have a 6-foot front porch.
You're the architect, you tell me how that
would affect roofline.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It depends on what you
want to do, yeah, the pitch would change
slightly, but --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well I wanted to
explore all the options.
MRS. MOORE: As you pointed out, it is
for aesthetics because that house is -- it
could use a little --
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
isn't going to change
whether you have a porch or
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
appearance.
Your ingress and egress
at all from the front
MRS. MOORE: It is for character.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so I wanted to
clarify that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Anybody else have
questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You said, by your
statement, Mrs. Moore, that you will accept
alternate relief?
MRS. MOORE: Of course.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And by the
discussion we've just had, the testimony
you've just given to Ms. Weisman --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and so,
therefore, we will try and work it out on that
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not.
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basis.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By reducing the lot
coverage and --
MRS. MOORE: Right. Just -- I'm sorry, a
clarification because we do want to -- the
Building Department, depending on how you
write it, I just want to alert you to
something that we want to make sure it's clear
in your decision that, as Ms. Weisman said, we
need a set of steps down and the Building
Department when you grant a variance if you
say, okay, a back deck that is 8 by 27,
whatever, but you don't refer to some form of
steps down, they might not allow us to extend
the steps down. So I do want you to think
about it when you're granting the variance
that we have some means, this is just a normal
step down from deck and so on. It can be on
the side, it can be on the rear, it can be, as
my client pointed out, it can be circular, but
let's not forget about it because if you want
us to stay within the bounds of the back deck,
we can do that, but then your staircase is all
part of that space. If you have no objection
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to having steps, typically, steps are not
considered an encroachment in side yard or an
encroachment into a yard because most houses
need a step down, except if you're asking for
a variance or at least that's the Building
Department's interpretation. So I want you to
keep in mind we do need steps down. If you
want us to put the steps on the side, you
know, starting on the side and working their
way down we can do that or centered.
I don't think you have a real preference?
No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The thing that
confuses me on this application is the fact
you are asking or you are telling the Board
that you are anticipatorily building a garage
back there, yet you are still looking for the
possibility of constructing a deck both first
story deck and second story deck on this house
and I can't figure that out based upon the
elevations that you have. Now I realize --
MRS. MOORE: Yes. I, you know what, I'll
let him explain cause I had the same,
honestly, I had the same question and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would leave the
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deck off and leave the stairs there and then
when you go to put in the garage, okay, then
deal with the deck because you may end up
taking the entire deck down by not having the
elevation factor high enough to get the cars
in the garage. I mean that's just my opinion.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. You have to go down,
it's actually a below grade garage. You have
to dig down three feet, because the height of
the floor being at the five foot. He has to
dig down and then, so that you're actually
driving under the deck and into the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
That's either done by steer or by a micro
(inaudible), but either one of those
situations are going to even place it down
farther than that because you're in affect
taking the entire back of the house out to do
that. Okay and the only thing is, meaning the
foundation, I'm not referring to the house, so
I mean depending --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but it could -- you
know what, it could take -- this could be
five, ten years from now and they need a deck
to -- I mean they need a house that is usable.
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January 8, 2009
So, you know, I did that personally. I put an
addition in when my kids got older and I ended
up removing, essentially cause the contractor
said, well it's easier for me to take out your
deck, the deck I had to build the addition,
than to work around an existing structure.
That's kind of sometimes you take that risk,
but timing-wise if you don't have the money
for the extensive work to put a garage under
the house, you're going to live like this for
a good ten years or so before you decide to
get to that point and you may never. I mean,
you know, you live without a garage now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just get one
more thing straight. The purpose of the
second story deck is for the purpose of
egress; is that what the issue was that we
were discussing?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MRS. MOORE: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, it's aesthetic.
MRS. MOORE: No, there's a sliding door.
You need something there, yes. The second
floor the bedroom has a door.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's egress to the deck,
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but not
MRS. MOORE:
house. There's
the front door.
not
(inaudible).
No, this is a single-family
a stairway in the house and
There's a side door, so it's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But why are we
discussing a spiral staircase or some other
access from the first deck to the second deck?
I can't figure this out.
MEMBER SIMON: No. To the ground.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's not. It's from
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, to the ground.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not to the second story.
MRS. MOORE: The staircase I was talking
about -- no, no, no. Yeah, the staircase is
not going from the second floor down. This is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
first floor.
It's going from the
MRS. MOORE: First floor down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: An extended first
floor based upon the fact that you had to --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- raise the house.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes and then -- yes. I
don't know, is there actually any connection
between the second deck?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, there's no
plane connection; is that correct?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MRS. MOORE: No, so -- yeah, that was my
-- I know the drawing is in front of me, but
it's just a balcony essentially for the second
floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: And a deck on the first
floor and steps.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How big is that
balcony on the second floor?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Same as the first floor.
MRS. MOORE: The lot coverage was already
established by the first floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But the balcony
could be reduced on the second floor, too.
MRS. MOORE: It doesn't need a variance.
That's not the variance, it's the lot
coverage. So --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
MRS. MOORE: I mean, if you eliminated
the first floor deck then we'd need a variance
for the second floor deck, but since it's the
variance of the first floor that's covering
all horizontally, but if you --
BOARD ASST.:
coverage though.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
coverage.
MRS. MOORE:
It's all part of the lot
Pardon me?
It's all part of the lot
It's all the same lot
coverage.
coverage because of the
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
questions? I wanted to
We're not asking for additional lot
second floor balcony.
can I ask two
ask two questions
about the square footage and setback of the
stairs to the rear drawing.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
that in measurement?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah,
You're asking me for
there's nothing to
show what the setback is.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, cause that's a
temporary staircase. This is an existing
condition survey with addition.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
BOARD ASST.: We don't have the size of
the stairs or anything.
MRS. MOORE: I don't, I think it's going
to be based on the elevation from the floor.
Do we know exactly what the measurement
is?
BOARD ASST.: Does the Board want that or
not?
MEMBER SIMON: I would think we would.
MRS. MOORE: I can provide that, that's
fine.
BOARD ASST.: You could confirm it by
letter or something.
MRS. MOORE: What?
BAORD ASST.: You could confirm it by
letter or something.
MRS. MOORE: Oh sure. Yeah, I will. As
I said, if you want, if you direct us instead
of a stairs that go from the deck down -- all
I'm saying is I don't know that I need a
variance setback if you include a set of steps
down.
MEMBER SIMON: We'd like to know how big
it is.
BOARD ASST.: The Board doesn't know what
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
the dimensions are or anything, setbacks or
the size of the stairs that you're asking for.
MRS. MOORE: Oh.
MEMBER OLIVA: What type of material that
they're going to be built from.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, well I can give you
those specifics, that's fine. It'll be a
standard wood deck.
BOARD ASST.: The only other question is
on the front porch.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: It's not clear what the
square footage of that proposed front porch
is. There's no breakdown on square footage on
the front porch.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because of the bump
out of the --
MRS. MOORE: Oh I -- yeah. It takes away
some of the -- I'll have to get that from the
surveyor.
Let me get my pen so I can make sure.
BOARD ASST.: It could be a variable on
that though. If you want to just confirm that
in a letter, that would be great.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I can't calculate
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
that.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She's writing it
down.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, square footage of
front porch and dimensions and setbacks of --
BOARD ASST.: Of stairs.
MRS. MOORE: -- of stairs. Is the
material of the decking and the stairs wood?
UNIDENTIFIED: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Wood.
MEMBER SIMON: Just one question, is it
your understanding, because I don't know, that
even a second floor deck would trigger the
need for a variance for lot coverage?
MRS. MOORE: Not if the first -- only if
the first floor deck doesn't exist.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I meant. Any
deck, it doesn't matter how high whether it's
MRS.
MOORE: Yeah, my understanding the
way the Building Inspector interprets it that
it's a horizontal up that --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, horizontal, you mean
vertical?
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MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, vertical. The
Code specifically allows canopies and things
like that up to 24 inches, I think.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I see. Okay.
MRS. MOORE: So beyond 24 inches is a
variance. So --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're done. Okay.
BOARD ASST.: What Michael said just
raised another question about the lot
coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: It's 5.3 percent over the
Code, so I would assume that the front porch
is only a small part of that 5 percent. That
the remaining percentage is really the rear
deck area, whether it's lower deck or upper
deck, that whole deck needs a lot coverage
variance because it's over 20 percent.
MEMBER SIMON:
of them.
BOARD ASST.:
Ail of them are, any one
Any of them would still
need a variance because it's over 20 percent.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
BOARD ASST.:
percent.
MRS. MOORE:
Only the house is at 20
The house itself is at 20
118
MEMBER SIMON:
your answer.
MRS. MOORE:
Right and I appreciate
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'd like to
move into the second phase. We would like to
discuss the situation of any concerns that
neighbors have.
MRS. MOORE: Oh.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have a letter
that went to the Supervisor and I'd like to
speak to Mr. Davis if he's available.
MR. DAVIS: I'm here, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you come over
and use --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay.
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percent on the dot.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, anything over that,
whether it's below deck or upper deck is built
into the lot coverage.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but he asked me
specifically about the second floor.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. DAVIS: Good morning,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr.
a letter to the Supervisor,
Scott.
MR. DAVIS:
one.
Chairman.
Davis you sent
I suspect it was
I hope there's not more than
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, there was at
one time, but he hasn't been Supervisor for a
while.
Did you intend that letter to go to the
Zoning Board?
MR. DAVIS: Yeah, I sent, you know,
emails are a tricky game I know, but sometimes
I send them in triplicate or copy when I think
it needs to be addressed, if I'm not sure how
to deal with an issue.
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me, it's not a
letter it's an email.
MR. DAVIS: It was an email. I do have a
letter for everybody though.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Oh, that's
good. It'll clear up the whole thing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good, alright. That's
what we need.
MR. DAVIS: (inaudible) you guys, I've
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
been doing my homework.
BOARD ASST.: That's why we did not enter
your email into the file.
MR. DAVIS: Oh, that's fine.
BOARD ASST.: We knew you would --
MR. DAVIS: Scott emailed me back with a
response that adequately carried weight in my
argument here and, if it pleases the Court, I
could read it out loud, if it makes a
difference, just to make it official.
Just to say hello everybody, how are you?
MEMBER OLIVA: Good.
MR. DAVIS: And --
MRS. MOORE: Can I get a copy of it?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, sure. There you go.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MR. DAVIS: But I am here to request that
the appeal for the zoning variance on the lot
64530 on Old Shipyard Lane, Southold, New York
be denied as it already has been. The
building is already on 20 percent of the lot
that is now allowable by law. These people,
albeit they must be fine people, are now
asking for a variance to increase to 25
percent lot coverage and that is not
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acceptable. I've spoken to my good friend
Mario who is here, we've been lifetime members
of that street, we grew up together in this
neighborhood, whose house abuts that property
and I've spoken to many surrounding neighbors
who actually live right next door to them and
they're not happy with this at all and we're
all in agreement that this structure does not
fit within the architectural integrity of the
neighborhood and should not have been allowed
to have been built in the first place.
What we all see here is a pathway, what I
call a pathway, to an evolution of
architectural destruction of the corridor
leading to Founders Landing because now this
type of building can be built anywhere and to
have this happen up and down Hobart Road would
be a disaster because I grew up there. This
is one of the older neighborhoods that has not
seen much change in the last 50 years if not
at least 100 years. Perhaps this is not an
historic district per se, but it is an area
that is cherished for its older homes and
quaint vistas and one day that may be no more
and that would be a shame. That is why we
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the area,
that and
affect.
need to freeze this construction and look at
ways to change the regional zoning laws to fit
which I've spoken to Scott about
I will be making submissions to that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just stop
you right there. We -- you can't compare
architecture with zoning, okay, that's why you
have Architectural Review.
MR. DAVIS: I understand --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want you to
be aware of that situation, okay?
MR. DAVIS: Alright. Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I'm not
stopping you from reading the letter --
MR. DAVIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not telling you
it's not germane, okay. I'm allowing you to
continue.
MR.
DAVIS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
compare those two.
MR. DAVIS: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
But please don't
Okay.
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MR. DAVIS: Now, I'm on a learning curve.
I've never done this type of thing before.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You've done a good job.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No problem.
MR. DAVIS: College Student Senate and
part-time rebel and radical, but always
(inaudible) guy, you know what I mean, I do
the best I can.
As it is this house was built with the
intent of a variance request. There is
already a door in the back of the second story
that leads to nowhere. That is where they
want to add the second story deck, see Article
A, and my two words for that is, forget it.
If they want the access, they can use a
ladder.
We are also upset about the easement that
was allowed for the two-car bay garage
underneath the back of the property. What
kind of environmental impact would this have?
See Article B, which, if you look at that,
I've done my own homework to say what it would
look like if it was blacktop in the upper
picture. Below that is the back of the lot,
which is actually Mario's backyard and if they
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were to put a two-bay garage back there, they
would, personally, like he said to me, I'll be
having to spend the rest of my life looking at
parking lots at night and so the bay doors
opening and closing, lights will be flashing
in their yard. Traffic will be going around
the back, so it's not an acceptable thing and
if you look at the second page you'll see how
the building was built so high behind these
quaint little homes and now that driveway they
want to have go behind these people's homes
where there's never been driveway before and
now somebody like Sonia is going to
potentially have traffic running behind her
house all the' time so they can part that. SO
that's that argument.
If you look at Article A, you see the
second door on top. Now, Mr. Russell wrote me
in his email, "The building permit, in my
view, based on what you tell me, should not
have been written if the builder included a
second story door that would be nonfunctional
with a variance and none had been granted."
So according to the Mr. Russell, it appears
this building to some degree is illegal and
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this is from him personally telling me this.
In other words, you should not be permitted to
build in anticipation of getting a variance.
20 percent lot coverage is not unusual
particularly down in that area, which I agree,
what is unusual is that the whole 20 percent
appears to be taken up by the two-stories of
the structure.
We're all actually distraught about this.
I know this guy's mom is completely distraught
because her garden runs behind that house and
now for the rest of her life and she's just
widowed, she'll have to look at this thing
potentially have two decks built above it
looking over her little tomato garden where
for the last 50 years we've all been investing
in this area. This potentially is a waste of
our investment, as I see it, I know it,
actually. That's why later I'm going to be
talking to Russ about how we can adjust this
because this is the beginning of the end and
the rest of the end and the rest of the letter
regarding that just reiterates what I just
said because my house is a 1674 Homesteader
home, it's 340 years old. Contrary to what
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this young lady says, no, not every house
needs a deck.
Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You must,
everything must be directed to the Board.
MR. DAVIS: I'm sorry. Yes, sir, I
apologize.
Not every house needs a deck, every house
just needs a roof, you know, and if they did
come and build this thing, the minute I saw
that go up last year, when I saw the
foundation going down and I realized it was
this much higher above. Frankly, the little
house I know was dilapidated, but it was nice
to see a little house and big trees. They
took -- some of the big trees are gone and I
know one of the neighbors next door to them
told me yesterday that she was absolutely
devastated when she saw all that happen.
It's just that now what are we supposed
to do here? They can build a little front
porch if they want, but this whole thing with
big decks and all this, everybody is going to
want to go in and build -- and ask for a
variance in that neighborhood because some of
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these little homes are going to be up for
sale, you know, and if you -- in fact, the
corner lot was Eleanor's house that just sold.
It took a few years because she died in a car
accident a couple of years ago. Now that
family just bought that house before they saw
this thing go up. Now can you imagine now
what they think they just bought?
I have nothing against the couple wanting
to have a place to live, but I think that we
need to try to control this and I'm willing to
put my two cents in and organize this a little
bit better because one of the Goldsmith boys
was at a Christmas party, Allen, told me we
probably need a housing association now for
the area and I'm in the process of working
with him now to develop that. So that I don't
want to know that I'm going to look next door
where Mrs. Cumming used to live and Ronnie and
Johnny live now, it's a nice little
gingerbread red house, I don't want to wake up
one day and see a monolith that's out of 2001
come down next door with driveways going
around the back, saying they can put -- you
know what I mean? It can't happen. It'll
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destroy the value of what I, I don't care
about the monetary value of my home, I care --
I know principles about the Zoning Laws are
not necessarily aesthetics, but it is what
drives you to be compelled to come to
something like this and so that's why I'm
here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Davis, one of the
criterion that we have to apply to all of our
findings has to do with character of the
neighborhood, which is why we visit
neighborhoods for every application. So we
understand the context in which any
application is being proposed.
MR. DAVIS: Yeah, see I think like a
house like this should have been built, if
they wanted to build two-stories, they should
have built just over the footprint, the
original footprint two stories and, if they
wanted to go 20 percent lot coverage, then the
rest of it should have been done one-story
ranch.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well --
MR. DAVIS: That's the way we need maybe
adjustments in the future.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: -- you may recall that
my first question on this application was that
since the modular home as-built is exactly the
right rear yard setback, and exactly 20
percent lot coverage, why, given the fact that
a door was installed on the back, on the
second story --
MR. DAVIS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- wasn't this planned
in advance? We never quite got an answer
except that it was timing. They needed to
move into a house, the modular did what it did
and now, because there's a door, there's a
required -- the door can be changed to a
window.
MR. DAVIS: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is no garage at
the moment. There is discussion about whether
or not the garage will happen in the future.
Should that be a proposal, it'll probably be
right back before us --
MR. DAVIS: Right, well my argument on
that --
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN:
now, that isn't before us so we
address it.
MR. DAVIS: I understand.
-- at that time. Right
really can't
MEMBER WEISMAN: We only can address
what's in the Notice of Disapproval.
MR. DAVIS: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But if you look at
character of the neighborhood, I must admit
that I was stuck by the fact that this
substantial two-story home that had to be
elevated above a flood plain by law and this
is often the case in these areas, the problem
is of course they become very conflated
looking, even though the Code permits them --
MR. DAVIS: I understand that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- they really look big
relative to other things that are there and it
does have an impact visually on the
neighborhood, but that's what our
responsibility is. It's to balance the rights
of property owners with the concerns of the
community.
MR. DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.
MEMBER SIMON: I would --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. DAVIS: Oh, no. I appreciate that
and I'm just looking forward to hopefully
making a positive contribution on this in the
future. You know?
MEMBER SIMON: Let me add to what Leslie
said. I think however difficult it may be for
the personnel concerned, your remarks are
appropriate at this time. Whether we accept
them or not, they're appropriate. To go back
to what we said before, it is I think
regrettable that you did not have the
opportunity to make these remarks at the time
that the original building permit was granted,
but technically it was all right. I don't
blame the Building Department for not having
anticipated that there might be a variance
coming on, but it is too bad that this was not
entered into before they decided to buy this
particular modular home rather than some
other, but your remarks better late than never
and they are certainly being taken seriously.
MR. DAVIS: Right. It would seem that
the modular home, I can't assume that you
can't order the dimensions you want, and have
it delivered to size that conform and if you
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
wanted the decks and the physical
the building the basement should have
percent less and then they could have
decks built-in at that 20 percent lot
if the building itself was 20 percent
than it is now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, right.
MR. DAVIS: They had, and I saw the
blueprint, I saw the proposal,
agreed to be built was to fit
lot coverage.
landmark of
been 20
had the
coverage
smaller
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MR. DAVIS: But what was laid down for
the foundation and finalized was the building
was 20 percent lot coverage as opposed to the
building including the decks and the porch
that were approved previously and this is
just, no offense to anybody who is trying to
have a good life out here, but like I said
that's just the kind of standard that I hate
to see being set as a precedent now and albeit
said, I love Southold, I grew up out here. I
volunteer down at the museum. I do all kinds
of kids' programs and stuff for the schools
and things and, you know, my house has just
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the 20 percent
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
always been a treasure to me and I value every
last window I've had to caulk personally, you
know, on it and I intend to do it 'til I die,
hopefully, not for a long time, and so with
that in mind I just ask you to consider these
remarks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just wait, we're
going on to the next person.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. If he could just
put the address of his house and where it is
because I don't think he's an adjacent
property owner and I just want to be sure that
we have on the record where -- which is your
house? Are you on the water --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to use the
mike, Mrs. Moore.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. DAVIS: No, I'm located --
MRS. MOORE: It's just that --
MR. DAVIS: Yes, my house is 2500 Hobart
Road, it's across the street diagonal from
them. I live next to the Goldsmiths and their
house the minute I saw it go up I knew the big
tree was down. I knew that the foundation had
also been built into a two-story thing. We
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
actually agreed we thought it was going to be
like a one-story with a front garage, you
know, what I mean? That was kind of what
people have been doing. So when it came up --
then when I saw the windows being built on the
second story to look out over, technically, my
yard with creek view and that's also something
that is being done more. People are losing
their privacy because their yards are being
invaded by people who feel they have the right
to look over your yard so that they can see
the water. You know what I mean? I don't
like that. The other thing is, in fact, when
I spoke to a neighbor of theirs yesterday
their house they've built has now completely
blocked her view of the creek.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can't control
that.
MR. DAVIS: I understand that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's controlled by
zoning and this is what zoning (inaudible
MR. DAVIS: But, you know, is just
becoming a -- we have to figure these things
out. Anyway, if I'd known to come earlier I
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
would have done it, but I just didn't know the
process.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you for
coming. We'd just like to give everybody else
the opportunity to speak.
MR. DAVIS: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MR. DAVIS: Take care.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good afternoon,
sir.
MR. SOUEL: Good afternoon.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you state
MR. SOUEL: I live at property 2745 kind
of directly behind the neighbors. Just before
I forget, this is not in the order I want to
go, mine will be much shorter, but along the
same lines is we would all have been very
interested to know what was going on there.
There was never a sign put in the front of
that house like I have to do in my house when
I do other houses that I have when I want to
do an apartment or I want to push out.
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your name for the record?
MR. SOUEL: My name is Mario Souel.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
There's nothing in front of it right now. The
only reason anyone would have known to come
here was the letter that the attorney sent.
MEMBER OLIVA: Wasn't it posted?
MR. SOUEL: It's not there today, I took
pictures I'll show you. Unless it's behind
the vehicles, but we would have definitely
gone just to get an idea of what was getting
built there. We've been there for 32 years,
so we haven't been there for a long time, but
32 years is a long time. There was an old
dilapidated house there and my father actually
knew someone lived there for a couple of years
before the house went empty and mattresses in
the backyard, overgrown. We never went to the
town, we never complained to everyone. We
actually every year went in there and cut it
down so that our garden would get a little bit
of light. That's just round about stuff that
doesn't make any difference today, I'm sorry.
I have the right to remember.
This house does not fit the character of
the neighborhood. I wrote this weeks ago and
you mentioned it, that's exactly what it is.
There's nothing like it anywhere, if you run
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
that whole peninsula there's nothing like it
that's a rectangular and that big. Not to say
it's not allowed and not to say it's not
legal, but it takes up every square inch that
they're allowed. It's to the max, to the max
in height, width and length, every little bit.
Had to have tremendous drainage project done
on that place because of the runoff. This has
little to do with it now, but they're talking
about eventually driving around and putting
the cars, well you know once you pave that
where's that water going to go?
You do live on a creek bed, that little
funny piece of property in the back is my mom
and dad's garden. When it rains it's pretty
wet there, you have to walk on wooden boards.
Where's all this water going to go? Even now
with the storm drains, cause they fill up when
you get substantial rain.
To keep going on, the back sliding doors,
we talked a lot about them. It's pretty
obvious what's going on, you know, they meant
to have that and have their cake and eat it
too. It's not so bad that there's doors, it's
wired for electric and there's sconces on
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
there now. It's not like oh we're -- I mean,
there's a utility outlet up there. I mean,
this is -- the only thing missing is the deck.
I mean that's kind of rude. At first when we
came in here you mentioned that, you know, and
then towards the end of the discussion with
the attorney it seems like they were dictating
what they were going to do to placate you.
Like okay, you're upset now, we'll do this and
we'll do the stairs like this. It seems like
they're telling you that they're going to get
it, they're pretty sure. I'm pretty hopeful
that they're not going to get the back deck.
As for the front of the house, I think it
would make the front of the house look nice
cause the house is, it's just too huge, it
actually needs a deck in the front to kind of
bunch it in and give it some kind of better
personality. Okay? And of course why not
have built a house a little less deep and got
what you wanted?
The porches on top of anything else, you
see the photo of the house,
to tell looking at my yard,
on the second page kind of
it's kind of hard
well, you can see
like where a little
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
picnic table is it's actually below what they
legally had to grade the house up to because
of the flood zone. The first porch would be -
look like this, the second deck porch is
where's the privacy? There's like no privacy.
It's just the backyard was where we sit, where
we enjoyed our meals. Now, it's a perch.
It's not a porch, it's a perch, it's
humongous. I mean I wish something else was
built there. I know not to turn around it's
not personal, it's just what it does to the
neighborhood and why do two people need a
house like that, I mean it's 4,000 square
feet. I mean you could have nine people and
the porches and the driveway and the garage,
whatever, if you can afford it and have it, I
guess you can have it, but it ain't right.
I mean, are we now to have automobiles in
our backyard? We're not talking about that,
but that's just totally weird for that
neighborhood. Nobody's got cars in their
backyard. It's backyard, gardens. I wrote
when was the hearing held for the garage?
Obviously it hasn't been held yet, and when
were the signs posted, I never seen them.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
This is the only notice I ever got.
What about the resale of our home and our
neighbor's home, just in case, like you know,
it's not a bonus to us. A lot of times if
someone built a nice house, of course, in an
area it's nice. This makes all the other
houses look like saltbox houses next to the
factory, which they won't starve, but they're
really nice. Our three homes combined have
less square feet than this one house, that's
easy to figure out. How can the Town allow
one house to negatively affect all the other
homes around it? I just don't think that
people went and looked at it and said, oh,
this might be a problem, it might have been a
problem. When is enough enough?
There is a way out of the house on the
side on the downstairs. They have a side
porch. I know the Code, there is no
requirement for egress when you have an
upstairs on a house cause there's dozens of
houses that don't have stairs going out of
them. So that's just totally --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You just need two
means of egress.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MR. SOUEL: That's it and they have
three. They're going to have to put some
little stairs from the downstairs deck or
something. And I'm sorry, if you have to have
egress. Okay, you know, that's about it. I
think what my neighbor stated and I'm telling
you, I wish you went there and looked at it.
The pictures don't do it justice.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We were all there.
MEMBER SIMON: We were there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We were there.
MR. SOUEL: You looked at it. You can go
up in my yard any time you want to get the
idea of what it's like. Fair is fair, they
got a large beautiful house. People don't
have to have everything. I mean my dad didn't
do our house because it was hard to do
anything to that house. Oh, the footprint and
you can't do this and it was -- my dad gave
up. He died before he did anything. I wanted
to do something for my mom, my family, my
brothers, our kids. I don't know what to do.
I might sell the house if there's no
comfort in the backyard. I'm sure they're
nice to talk to and everything, but it's like
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
-- I don't know if you have any privacy in any
of your homes, but it's a nice little
sanctuary when you have your yard. Sonia has
a beautiful little space,
wall.
I thank you for your
she's looking at a
time. I hope you
take it into consideration cause it really is
asking for on top of what was already given.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. SOUEL: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else back there?
MRS. MEBUS: Yes.
Yes, ma'am.
for the record,
MRS. MEBUS:
Is there anyone
Could you state your name
please, ma'am.
My name is Sonia Mebus.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.:
name, please?
MRS. MEBUS:
BOARD ASST.:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS.
Road. I
How do you do?
How do you spell your last
M-E-B-U-S.
Thank you.
Thank you.
MEBUS: And I live at 2675 Hobart
also don't have any animosity toward
the person that built it, I just feel it
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doesn't fit there and I will say that I do
look at a wall, a very tall wall and I'd
rather that you heard all the arguments. I
just want to tell you I think personally,
emotionally, I love Southold more than life
itself. This has been my sanctuary. I've
always worked hard and I come home to this
house. It is, it was my summer home, it's now
my primary, basically, but what happened was I
loved it because of my privacy. I loved it
because every time I walked in the door I
went, oh, this is great. I don't feel that
way about it anymore and I know that I'm just
an individual who happens to have this big
house behind me, but it did take away the
beauty of Southold for me.
I can't begin to tell you, everybody
jokes on the block about how I have the garage
to their house, which, you know, I say okay
and I laugh about it, but it is such a
wonderful place to live and I had always
thought that from preservation when you buy a
house you have to pay extra taxes. Everything
that Southold has always done even when they
were difficult about Code I was so happy and
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this is to me I can't understand how in God's
name this ever went up and I never knew about
it. I didn't know anything about it.
So it is a very big change for me and
that's all I have to say. It has nothing to
do with the people, it has to do with the fact
that I think they took everything to the
ultimate and I do believe they are somewhat
brazen because I think that they should have
taken into consideration that everything they
ask for from now on would be extra, which is
the garages.
I don't know the things that everybody
knows about how I'm going to get a lot of
water in my house, you know? I don't
understand all that, but they also have a very
like maybe a 40-foot Winnebago and it's in the
front lawn. My neighbors in the front are
going to be happy it's going to go in the
backyard, but that's what I'm going to be
looking at all the time and that's all I have
to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Mrs. Moore, could you wrap this up,
please?
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MRS. MOORE: Yes. I just want to clarify
some things because I think the neighbors are
misunderstanding. There is no application for
a detached garage. Okay, so there is no --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore to the
Board, please.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. What we were
talking about is that, potentially, if there
is a garage that is here, it might go under
the house. That's all. I do want to point
out that since I live in the neighborhood I
also know of the homes in the neighborhood.
There are actually a couple of doors down a
brand-new modular home that was built there.
It was built on a similarly sized property and
I believe that they were delayed or they had
to get variances for the decks in the back
because the house, the modular, came in at the
lot coverage. I can do the research, but I
know that they were held -- the house was
completed for a very long time before they
actually got the decks. There was also a
modular for the Smiths that was an old
Victorian that burned down and the Smiths on
Shipyard Lane replaced their house with a
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sell
Mrs.
here.
modular and, again, the modular came in and
they came in later for a front porch to add to
the modular to give it some character cause it
was a simple Cape and they put in a front
porch.
This -- I appreciate the comments that
were expressed today. I think what everybody
has to realize is that these are small
properties that when you bring up -- when you
put a house on a small property that has to
meet all the new Codes there, you know, it
does affect the old houses that were there
because the reason many of the people that
spoke their houses would not be able to be
renovated without conforming with current
standards. So they're going to face when they
the house similar problems that Mr. and
Prahlow had when they put this house
There will be no drainage issues because
it's the new house and it has to conform to
the new drainage Code drainage is actually
addressed on this property. Whereas all the
old houses have no -- don't have to address
their drainage issues.
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If the Board wishes, I will go and give
you all the research of the lot coverage of
the surrounding area. I think, as a matter of
knowledge, the Board has with the character of
the area, most of the properties here are
nonconforming and most of them would or could
require variances, at any point in time, if
they were to ask for anything at this point
because they are also nonconforming. This is
the old -- I believe it's called the Terry
Subdivision and the lots the neighbors all
spoke out they all live in 50 by 100-foot lots
at most, actually less. So some of the
properties in the area are double lots so they
are about the only ones that can be -- that
are found conforming at this point.
I'd be happy to address anything else
that you might have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
we -- would we like that
I have nothing. Do
information in
reference to lot
coverage for the
MRS. MOORE:
coverage, estimated lot
surrounding area?
For the surrounding area,
I'd be happy to provide that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I -- I --
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MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd have a question I'd
like to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can ask the
question, but I need an answer.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm not --
MRS. MOORE: You don't need that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think I need
that information.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If other Board members
want it, that's fine.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. I just want to be
sure I give you what you need.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) I just want to
be sure for the record. Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: No.
MRS. MOORE: You don't need it? Okay,
fine.
BOARD ASST.: Ruth doesn't, Gerry
doesn't.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine. Your --
it's very obvious from a drive-through of the
neighborhood.
Go ahead, you have a question.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just wondered, I guess
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I wondered this before, but I'm wondering how
you have a door that gets put into a house and
it gets a CO when it doesn't have steps down
to the ground.
MRS. MOORE: Which door are we talking
about?
MEMBER DINIZIO: The upstairs slider.
I'm wondering how you get that. How, uh, that
decision is made.
MRS. MOORE: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know that, you know,
if you build a deck you have to have, you
know, all of your steps have to be conforming
to get you down. In other words they all have
to be 8-inch or 7 inches, whatever. I'm
wondering now how it gets a CO when they're on
-- when there's nothing there. Is there -- do
you have any idea how that would happen?
MRS. MOORE: I know from prior experience
that you can -- the Building Department will
allow you to build what is a small enclosure
or balcony or something to enclose the steps,
so you can open the door for ventilation and
so on. There are lots of houses that are new
designed nowadays where French doors are open.
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It's all the European balconies that are --
you can put in grating and that way you don't
there's no Code requirement that that door
has stairs down to the first floor. It's just
an architectural feature.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there a CO on
this house at this time?
MRS. MOORE: There is a CO on this house,
right? Oh, not yet? Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the reason,
Mrs. Moore there
MRS. MOORE:
but there are --
is no CO.
I guess that's the answer,
I have had houses that were
MEMBER SIMON: My question is and maybe
the Building Inspector should answer this, can
a CO be granted to a house which has a door to
nowhere on the second floor?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think maybe we ought
to write the Building Inspector and ask him
that.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
Just so we get a
know, how.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
clarification of, you
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Well, Mike, you're here and
you correct me if I'm wrong, I know that there
is a couple of houses where --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, you don't want me to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would prefer not to
impose on him right now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, would you
like to answer that question or would you
rather not?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We always
appreciate you coming and I have to tell you
that --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: It's
not a problem. Chief Building Inspector
Michael Verity, Town
Pat pretty much
in reference to that.
CO on the house. As
of Southold.
hit the nail on the head
Right now there's not a
far as the plans that are
in the Building Department there is not a door
in the location that you're talking about.
There's a window in the location that you're
talking about, but you could get a CO on a
house with a door. The style -- it seems to
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
be the style that's going around now. You see
it all over where as long as you have some
type of protection, you could have a French
wood door, you could have a slider door. You
don't really see it as a slider door, you see
it more as a French wood door that would
possibly open in and they would have a grate
of some sort of limited balcony of some sort
to protect that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is
since there are two of these in the rear of
this house, at this time, regardless if it's
first story or second story, what would the
Building Department require and I'm going to
answer the question in the past, okay. In the
past would be that you needed to block that
door --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: It
would be some type of --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and screw it
closed.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct. It would be some type of proper
protection or you could -- the door can
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
actually work as long as there's proper
protection beyond that. Some form of a guard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But if there is no
-- excuse me I'm sorry.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If there is no
proper protection it would have to be screwed
closed.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: It
would have to be screwed closed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no, no.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY:
Actually we wouldn't even allow that. We
wouldn't allow just a -- it would have to be
something permanent in nature.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you would put a
balcony there or just a rail.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I've seen it
myself.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But I just wanted to
know how you come to that and that's --
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CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: As long as that door is
not an egress door, right?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct. Obviously we can't leave a door to
nowhere. Yeah. You have to either have a set
of steps or you have to have some type of
permanent fixture or guard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. We
appreciate that.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like to
close the hearing --
MRS. MOORE: If I could just address --
just one moment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think you
read the directions. You have 15 minutes to
present your hearing and --
MRS. MOORE: An issue has come up on the
steps, though.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we need to
wrap this up, okay?
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
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BOARD ASST.: It's
MRS. MOORE: but I
entire time, so --
an hour already.
haven't spoken the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (inaudible}.
MRS. MOORE: May I respond briefly?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: If you're concerned about
the second floor and the neighbor is concerned
about privacy there are ways to address it by
putting up just a small screen, a visual
screen so that you have a little balcony, but
you put up a small screen so that you don't
look over onto your neighbor's property.
That's usually how it's, you know, an
accommodation that's made and that's certainly
a reasonable accommodation. Again, remember
these neighbors, it's their backyard, but it's
our side yard and that's just the way the
whole property, the subdivision was created a
long time ago. They look out to the water in
front or they look over Goldsmith's large
storage buildings and I appreciate their
desire to have privacy, but it's also, in
fairness to this property owner that's built a
two-story, a normal two-story house and yes we
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
need variances for the decks, but there are
ways of accomplishing that without penalizing
my client for a second floor balcony area. We
can try to address that. Something came to
mind very quickly I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you think of
anything after this hearing, you're certainly
welcome. We will allow you to certainly
reduce it to writing; however, we need to make
sure that it goes to those property owners
that have spoken in some way. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's the
problem when you don't have an association
type of situation with one person speaking.
So if you feel that that is the need, you need
to tell us that now that you're going to
reduce something to writing. You are going to
give us, at this point --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- the distance for
the rear stairway to the property line.
MRS. MOORE: Right and the deck -- and
the front porch dimensions. I did do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, square
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
footage.
MRS. MOORE: I might, if you have a
picture of the old house, the dilapidated
house, we might have that so that you can
appreciate that the neighborhood had lived
with a house that was in complete deteriorated
condition. So that, personally, I think that
is -- this is a major improvement to the
neighborhood, but that's a matter of opinion.
BOARD ASST.: The Chairman asked you a
question on the record and, I'm sorry, I don't
have an answer. Are you submitting anything
more in writing or --
MRS. MOORE: Well, the things that you
want, just that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Those
things.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, based upon
that situation, I would like to offer
resolution to close this hearing and reserve
decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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158
ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6235 - Andrew and
Elizabeth Greene
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variances under Code
Sections 280-12 and 280-13C.2.a, based on the
Building Inspector's June 30, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an application for a
building permit to alter the use of an
accessory building (second floor) from an
accessory use as a garage to the owner's home
occupation office with full bathroom, after
removal of the as-built kitchen and cooking
areas, instead of a home office carried on in
the main building. The proposed change in use
from garage to a home office is not permitted
under Code Section 280-13C.2a, which requires
a "home occupation" to be incidental to the
residential use of the premises and carried on
in the main building. In addition, the
Building Inspector states that the existing
living space with kitchen {apartment) as-built
is not permitted under Section 280-12, since
the Code limits each lot to only one dwelling.
Location of Property: 30653 C.R. 48 {a/k/a
Middle Road or North Road), Peconic; CTM 73-4-
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mrs. Moore.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you. I'd like
to introduce, Mr. Greene, Mrs. Greene.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MRS. MOORE: And, Phoebe, their 2-1/2-
year-old daughter. The other two boys are in
school, so this is the whole family. I don't
know if all of you got a chance to go inside
the space. Well, some of you did, I know
that.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
I've been there.
I know you were there, yes.
You also have the photographs that we provided
for you of the interior space and you can see
that I think what the Building Department was
just concerned that this space be authorized
by this Board because there's that little, you
know, it has a sink and a little
refrigerator/cooler so that they have cold
drinks, but it is clearly not a kitchen, not
even, there's no cooking facilities here. The
building permit when it was issued was done
with finished space above. The second floor
was issued with a building permit for the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
completed finished space and what happened is
that, I think, when the Building Department --
when the space was completed, they just felt a
little uneasy and wanted to make sure that
this space was authorized by this Board.
They -- they're both professionals, but
they work from home. I gave you a copy of
their job descriptions, both um, Andrew has
several jobs, it takes a lot to feed the
family. He's the Director of Development and
Finance for MVP Basketball Camps, Inc. a not-
for-profit organization based in White Plains
and he works kind of fundraising, right, for
the scholarships for disadvantaged youths,
that's one job. His other job is he's the New
England Acquisitions Manager for Carefree RV
Resorts. Believe it or not there is a
specialized field on these RV camps, resorts,
that there is when they go up for sale and so
on or investments. You have to really know
what you're doing, it's a specialized field.
There's a lengthy description, but in very
brief terms he works as a representative for
the Carefree RV Resorts Company. They're
homebased in Scottsdale, Arizona. So he
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
obviously can work from home. He is also a
licensed real estate salesperson and he works
from the Prudential Douglas Elliman Real
Estate in Souther Hill. That business is a
little slow right now, I think we hope it
improves, but, again, he works the office, he
is a sales person so he can take a phone call
and make arrangements, but there is no need
for anybody to come to their house for that
purpose.
Elizabeth is
She is -- she has
a freelance food editor.
tested kitchens of gourmet
magazines -- food editor in the test kitchens
of Gourmet magazine and Good Housekeeping,
both of those periodicals; am I correct?
MRS. GREENE: Yeah, I test recipes on a
freelance basis for --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to use the
mike.
BOARD ASST.:
before you speak,
MRS. MOORE:
You need to be identified
please.
Sorry about that.
MEMBER SIMON: Could I ask a question?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: Do we need all this
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January 8, 2009
information?
MRS. MOORE:
is a home office,
Well, just to verify that it
that is that they are
professionals and they work from home. So to
that extent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, tell us that
Mrs. Greene. Just state your name for the
record.
MRS. GREENE:
I work from home.
Hi, my name is Liz Greene.
I test recipes for Gourmet
magazine actually for their television show
called Diary of a Foody. So they email me a
segment of the show, I look at it, I develop
recipes based on some rough outlines that I'm
sent that the chef sends me. So I kind of get
them in shape and test and make sure they work
and write them in the Gourmet style and then
they're published on the web. So I do that
cooking in my kitchen in the house, you know,
the main house, but I maintain an office with
research materials and I do writing and stuff
like that over there and use the phone.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, the home office needs a
business so that's why I put on record what
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January 8, 2009
their occupation is.
The problem with our home occupancy law
that for professionals in particular that a
lot of us there's a lot of telecommuting now
and also just the type of work, white collar
type of work, that throughout this community
you're doing it from the house, there's no
meeting of clients at your house or anything.
It just -- you just need a computer and you
just need your books and your paperwork. This
space seemed like the logical space.
So what we are asking for is a variance
from having it be in as part of the principle
residence and allow the space to be conducted
in the second floor finished space of the
garage. That is the application that's before
you. It is what we wanted to dispute is the
description of this as accessory apartment.
It is not rented, it is not an apartment, it
is none of those things, and but,
unfortunately, the Building Department does
have a lot of people that do do that and when
they see a space that could theoretically be
used as an accessory apartment they send this
over to you and through your blessing we are
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
permitted to use this space, but not as an
accessory apartment.
So that is why we are before you. If you
have any questions, I don't want to belabor
it. I think it's
it's the physical
main house.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
all in writing to you and
that is not connected to the
And it's not in our Code.
Well, you're allowed an
accessory, you know, something that is a use
that is accessory to your principle use and
the problem we have is that to -- that we're
asking for a variance from the requirement
that it be attached to the main building.
MEMBER OLIVA: How many square feet is it
up there?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what?
MEMBER OLIVA: How many square feet is
the upstairs of the garage?
MRS. MOORE: Do you recall?
MR. GREENE: It's about 6 or 700.
MRS. MOORE: 600, 650, I think it's under
700, I know that because the first floor space
is a two-bay garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: No other rooms?
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MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, what?
MEMBER OLIVA: Just the bay for the two-
car garage, no other rooms downstairs?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, there's a
storage room.
MRS. MOORE: No, well there's like a
storage area and, you know, like a walk-in
area so you --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the stairs.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah and the stairs up,
right, but that part of the space is not the
space where they sit and do their work.
MEMBER OLIVA: My voice isn't so good
today. In other cases, especially one in
Orient, they wanted to do some sort of
recreational room in their garage and we
insisted that they put a heated enclosed
walkway from the house to the garage to
connect them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. You
represented that
MRS. MOORE:
bedrooms? Yeah,
client, didn't you?
Yes. They were putting
that was a master bedroom
suite over a three-story garage in Orient.
it's a very different application here.
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January 8, 2009
MEMBER OLIVA: No, no, no.
MRS. MOORE: Not that one?
MEMBER OLIVA: One that you did, Gerry,
there was a --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think I --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it was a design like a
-- it was a very old house on Main Road and
then they built what would be like a barn-
looking extension on the second floor was a
master bedroom and rec room/family room and
then below it was a two- or three-bay garage
and you wanted to have the two spaces
connected by an enclosure.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER OLIVA:
because it is not
Right.
So that's what --
That's my suggestion here
in the Code. That a home
MRS.
variance
MEMBER OLIVA:
office should be in your home not in the
accessory building and we have so many
requests for recreation rooms and in old
garages, this in old garages and what-have-you
and it's not in the Code.
MOORE: Well, what we're asking is a
from the requirement --
I know.
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January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE:
it is without -- understand that the
connection of the
house and this is
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
-- to allow it to be used as
heated space between the
about a space of about --
Not that much.
-- oh a lengthy distance.
I
think we measured it cause we looked at that
as a possibility. I said well you don't need
a variance, you could do anything you wanted
on that second floor space if you connected
it.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's right.
MRS. MOORE: And the reality is that when
you're raising three children and you work
independently that the cost of putting that
in, which is a space of about 15 feet, I think
distance, more? I'm sorry, I'm looking at a
survey. Oh, 25 feet, maybe.
MEMBER SIMON: Pat, may I? Instead of
talking about the substantive extra legal
considerations, which are important obviously
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I thought I answered
the question.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, no. You're
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answering a different question I think.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: But this has two
interesting aspects, this application, and
what troubles me is that while you can make a
case maybe for one, maybe for the other, maybe
for both, but both together, you're asking for
a special exception for home occupation
separated from the building and that could
considered on its merits and so forth on this
thing for the consideration about having
isolated space.
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
You mean a variance.
No, just that -- yeah, no
special exception.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, a variance for that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: And so
if the
office.
office.
doctor's office and it was not -- it was going
to be a few feet separated from the house, you
could probably make a pretty good argument.
So that might be worth considering, you need a
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it would be imagine
case of like if someone had a dentist's
We're talking about a professional
If you had a dentist office or a
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
variance for it, a special permission for it,
but here we're having something which looks
like, to the Building Inspector and to some of
us, too, like an apartment.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: And it doesn't look like -
it looks, if I didn't know that they were
going to use it as a home for home occupation,
it looks to me like a
with a full bathroom,
kitchen a kitchenette,
bedrooms or two rooms
two-bedroom apartment
kitchenette, not a
full bathroom, two
and a living room. If,
for example, this couple who are -- in
principle could move almost anyplace for their
interesting and successful work, could move to
some other place and sell the house to
somebody who doesn't have such needs. Well,
that person might have to apply for special
permission to use it as an accessory home
office because it sure doesn't look like that,
except so far as you tell us and, I think
truthfully, about how they intend to use it.
What the Building Inspector probably didn't
understand and I don't understand is if you're
building a home office, why was it built that
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January 8, 2009
way? Why does it look so much like an
apartment except for the fact that it doesn't
have a full stove?
MRS. MOORE: But that's why -- the whole
point of why we're here. The Building
Inspector says, I mean, it was a permissible -
that building permit was permissible. It
was granted, they built it and it had space as
office, I think it was office -- generic
office space and they looked at it and said,
hey, you know, it looks like an apartment. We
want you to come to the Zoning Board to get
approval.
MEMBER SIMON: Why do you think they did
that?
MRS. MOORE: Well because it looks like
an apartment.
MEMBER SIMON: It does.
MRS. MOORE: Right and that said I
wouldn't -- put it this way, I'm making the
application to you. You make a decision that
says you're allowed to use it as your
ancillary office space, detached office space.
When you buy a piece of property, you're going
to have -- and it could be with covenants.
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You buy it with whatever recorded, whatever
records you have. Anybody who buys this is
going to know, well in the Town of Southold
you can't have an accessory apartment, a
detached --you can't have an accessory
apartment, period. It hasn't been legislated
into the Code.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And even if you wanted to
come in and get a variance for it, the Zoning
Board tends to not want to give you an
accessory apartment in the space. If you're
going to have an accessory apartment it has to
be connected, it has to be part of the
principle dwelling.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. Would you
agree that what is being asked for, and this
might be reasonable to ask for, is essentially
two variances? One for an accessory apartment
in a separate building and the other one for
home occupation. They seem to be bringing
these two issues together and it's regrettably
confusing.
MRS. MOORE: But
accessory apartment.
haven't applied for an
The Building Department
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
rejected it
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
apartment.
MEMBER SIMON:
and said --
What I'm saying --
-- it is an accessory
-- is the fact that the
owner doesn't call it an accessory apartment,
doesn't make it not an accessory apartment.
MRS. MOORE: But it's use, it's not --
No. An accessory apartment is not --
MEMBER SIMON: It's used now.
MRS. MOORE: I would strongly disagree
because an accessory apartment, second
dwelling, okay, accessory apartment would need
cooking facilities. There is no cooking
facility. There is no electrical outlet to
hookup a stove, electric stove or anything.
As I said, well he has an electric, uh, cause
you need a super duper, you need a higher end
electric plug for
gas for --
MEMBER SIMON:
a electric stove, there's no
Okay, I understand. Let
me ask a hypothetical.
MRS. MOORE: -- a gas stove.
no cooking going on in this
MEMBER SIMON: Suppose
So there' s
facility.
the Greenes both
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January 8, 2009
wind up in their professional career working
in a place where they actually are provided
with offices, so this is not being used and
iow and behold the parents of one or the other
of them needs a place to live? If I were the
owner of that house and I had that place, I
would say, mom, dad, or both of you, this is a
great place for you to live. There's not a
full kitchen, but it'll be a good place for
you to live, and it's perfectly legal even
though your home occupation is taking care of
each other.
MRS. MOORE: Well, is it perfectly legal?
MEMBER SIMON: No, it isn't.
MRS. MOORE: Well, then it's not
perfectly legal.
MEMBER SIMON: But it exists. We're
allow -- are we going to allow the building of
something which is not perfectly --
MRS. MOORE: But could it be used
illegally? I -- I think that's the whole
point why we're here. If we wanted to do
something and use it illegally, we wouldn't
have come to you. I think we're coming to you
because we want to use it --
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January 8, 2009
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
permission to use
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
the case depends entirely on the fact
this is going to be used only as a --
occupation and will never be legal if
be used for home occupation, but that
Okay.
-- legally and we want
it --
Okay, I --
-- as our office space.
Okay, are you saying that
that
for home
it is to
it is
going to be allowed. What's to keep somebody
from saying that I want to build a place like
this over my garage --
MRS. MOORE: Uh-huh.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and I'm going to say
that I work at home. I happen to be, have
been most of my career, in a business where I
did most of my work at home --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: -- as a
MRS. MOORE: Okay, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: -- in a
college professor.
home office, but a
home office is not a secondary residence. I
do not have, when I was declaring a tax
deduction for a home office, I wouldn't dream
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
of having a full bathroom, for example,
adjoining my office and then try to blow this
by the IRS and say this is really only a
professional office.
BOARD ASST.: You could have it in your
house, though.
MEMBER SIMON: I could have it in my
house, but I couldn't have it in my special
permission home occupation apartment.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: And that's why I just
doesn't seem right to me. This is subjective
judgment, but it seems that way to other
people apparently, too, such as the Building
Department.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
benighted, I think,
conclusion.
Right and that's why we came
They're not completely
for drawing that
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask a question?
MRS. MOORE: Go ahead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm going to proceed
based on the Notice of Disapproval.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, the application
says the proposal is to remove a kitchen.
MRS. MOORE: Right and I'm saying we have
no kitchen.
BOARD ASST.: There was one.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What is shown on the
plan --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and what was observed
on site inspection is a kitchen whether you
have an oven in it or not. If you want to --
MRS. MOORE: What constitutes a kitchen?
Tell me --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- call it a wetbar, if
you want to call it -- I don't care what you
call it --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can put a microwave
in there and you can cook. Alright, the point
is in this proposal are you planning to leave
that like nook, presumably you are.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I mean it has an
apartment refrigerator where they can have
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
cold drinks
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Notice of Disapproval
so they don't have to walk to the
know what's in there.
But I'm -- we have a
that says that there is
an illegal use,
dwelling.
MRS. MOORE:
they've defined it as a second
Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now we have an
application requesting that that "illegal use"
be either said it's not illegal or just simply
say we want to use it for something else
anyway and you want us to grant a variance
that will allow you to have a home occupation
in an accessory structure that is not attached
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to the principle
dwelling as the Code now requires.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Where it's incidental to
the primary dwelling.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So let's just be clear
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ZBA Town of Southold January 8, 2009
that that's what the notice says.
MRS. MOORE: That's what I thought
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's what
asking for.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
it was
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is an alternative
to a variance, which is to attach it and you
said that it's a matter of expense.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The space is already
heated, air conditioned, it's fully finished,
it's as-built and, despite the fact that
there's additional cost to attach it, I don't
see how we can grant a variance for a use
that's not permitted in an accessory
structure. We've denied those applications,
you were the attorney on one of them for a
music studio, remember?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: On the North Road.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can grant variances
from the Code, but what we're asking, really
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you're
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
what we're asking for here is not so much a
variance from the Code, but to say we're going
to ignore the Code. It's not like a
percentage of a change in the Cede, you know
what I'm saying, like lot coverage is a
percentage --
MRS. MOORE: No, I understand that, but -
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- of what the law will
allow. This is simply not a legal use because
it's not attached.
MRS. MOORE: I don't read it -- I'm
sorry, I don't read it that way. I read that
a home occupancy use is a permissible use.
It's still -- your principle residence --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not in an accessory
structure.
MRS. MOORE: But it's whether or not you
can grant a variance from the accessory
structure requirement. Is that a variance or
you're saying it's not, it's a use. I'm
saying that the Code does not prohibit you
from giving a variance to that element if
you've met everything else in that
description, you are -- all you're asking for
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is, well, allow us, instead of requiring us to
throw our kids out, allow us to use the space
that is a logical reasonable space to have a
quiet space for us to work from. So --
MEMBER SIMON: Let me go back to the home
occupancy rule. As I understand the home
occupancy rule, is it doesn't have to do with
space, it has to do with whether you can run a
business out of your house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: So if you stop your home
occupation nothing changes. There is not a
special area that you're building for a home
occupation, which then you think has to be
scrutinized fairly closely to see whether is
it a home occupation, is it just a home
occupation? So the analogy with home
occupation is very awkward because if it were
the matter of like moving the dentist office
with nothing but what a dentist office has, it
has a waiting room and so forth, 30 feet away
from the house, that's an easy case. This is
not an easy case because it isn't that simple.
It's a space and that's what it's all about,
that's what the Building Department is calling
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attention to, that this is a space which is
going to be used at least for the time being
for home occupation and so it's like two
variances in a way or two kinds of
considerations.
MRS. MOORE: Well, it seems to me that
based on their needs that this space could be
legalized that way. If you're saying to me,
well, we would legalize this the second floor
space of this garage for your use just get rid
of the sink, I mean I really don't know how
you get -- you know, I have in my office a
cabinet that looks almost identical to this
and it's -- a coffee maker sits on it. That's
it. I have no kitchen, that is the extent of
the kitchenette or whatever, however you
describe it, the space to put a coffee and
cold drinks.
MEMBER SIMON: Do you have a full bath in
your office.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, oh absolutely.
MEMBER SIMON: With tub and everything?
MRS. MOORE: I do, yeah, full tub second
floor. Yeah, actually that came in handy when
the electricity went out.
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January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, can we
continue down the line?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand your
argument, Pat. It certainly would be more
compelling if there wasn't a tub and shower in
there, but, you know, I -- and I understand
the fact that we are talking about a use here
assigned to a piece of property. We're
discussing now where that use can be used in
that piece of property. You're suggesting
that it be in the garage --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim, you need to
get closer to the mike.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're suggesting that
it be in the garage upstairs in a separate
building. I mean that's the crux of this
whole thing.
MRS. MOORE: Straightforward, yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. This, to me, I
mean, to my mind about home offices it's not
two offices and a reception area and a coffee
area. It's a home office, you know, a place -
- I mean I have a home office. I work out of
my house. I run my business out of my house.
You know, I don't store much there. I don't
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MRS.
I think.
have one.
do a lot of, you know, inventory. I don't
have a secretary. I don't have all of that
and I'm not so sure that even a home office
even considers having a secretary kind of a
thing or a reception --
MOORE: You're allowed one employee,
Not that they have one or intend to
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, they are. No, I
know, but the original home office.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, cause I remember
going over, you know, what it was he wanted to
accomplish there.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What he wanted to
accomplish was, you know, a place to put a
computer and, you
night, I thought.
MRS. MOORE:
know, do your billing at
Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I mean when I opened
it up and I saw a tub there, I'm thinking this
is going to be a hard sell. Then I thought to
myself, well, if these two people were
artists, they wouldn't have any trouble at all
because we've granted artists in separate
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
buildings a number of times.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One, one. Two in
particular.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I could think of
(inaudible) and I could think of King and
Cleary, which we made a lot of exceptions for
that woman and we --
MRS. MOORE: And there's a third because
(inaudible}.
MEMBER DINIZIO: There's probably plenty
more, you know, there's probably plenty more,
but you know I don't know maybe they should
consider painting. I think that cooking is
pretty close to that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I mean I also do want
to have you keep in mind where we are.
MEMBER OLIVA: I know exactly where.
MRS. MOORE: This property is so
isolated. It is in the middle of nowhere. It
is surrounded by huge open-space property.
They are -- if it's a question of does it
bother anybody, does it intrude on anybody's
privacy, anything? It is -- it takes -- it is
quite a chore to even get to the house so it
seemed to me that they've done a beautiful job
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January 8, 2009
with the layout of their property and, you
know, using that space for something
productive it seemed to me that that was a
reasonable request. Again, I felt the
variance was from its placement instead of it
being inside the house, it's still a
residential property. It's not that people
come to this and say, like a dentist's office,
you would have clients that you would serve,
that's not the case here at all.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MRS. MOORE: They don't have anybody
coming here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My suggestion is
that you get a price and get back to us with
what it would cost to attach it to the house.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's my
suggestion and very similar to the one we did
in Orient and, you know, this one is much
closer than the one that was in Orient.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the two
structures.
MEMBER SIMON:
I'd just say something
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positive and encouraging. I think on first
look it looks terrific and the neighborhood,
all the environmental arguments and so forth
are fine. One of the things I thought is I
wish the Code allowed this kind of thing.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
I would agree --
I'm on your side.
I -- I --
The problem is how can I
as a member of this Board do what people are
accused of like rewriting Code or pretending
there wasn't a Code in order to do something
that I wish were in the Code. That's the
problem I have.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're gonna need a
new disapproval if you do it.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, if I connect it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: It would remove the use
problem and trigger a side yard variance.
MRS. MOORE: It would be part of the
principle originally? Yeah, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's something to
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point out that if we do connect it we need a
variance for a rear yard setback.
BOARD ASST.: Side yard.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll deal with it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: Did you have a previous
application which was never, I think, acted on
for a pool?
MRS. GREENE:
MEMBER OLIVA:
BOARD ASST.:
was filed --
MEMBER OLIVA:
it, come up.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. GREENE:
BOARD ASST.:
For a pool?
Swimming pool.
We have an application that
If you'd like to look at
-- by another agent.
We hired an expediter --
Yeah, it's an incomplete
for a number of (inaudible).
MR. GREENE: -- at one point years ago
just to see if we could ever have a pool back
there.
BOARD ASST.: It should be withdrawn if
you don't want to proceed with it, just a
letter withdrawing the application --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
one.
MR. GREENE: Okay, I never knew there was
BOARD ASST.: -- and we can try to refund
some money to whoever paid for it. I don't
know who paid for it, maybe your check, and
you'd get a refund, if it's in your name.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was Mr. Greene
speaking.
MR. GREENE: Yes.
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we need that.
MR. GREENE: Sorry.
BOARD ASST.: I don't have the whole
application, but that's the indication right
there. There is the file number, when it was
filed, (inaudible) in the office in the other
building if you'd like to look at it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would like to
continue, please.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application? This
application will be adjourned.
BOARD ASST.: Do you want to adjourn it
with a date or without a date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: I guess my client is just a
little frustrated because when he made the
building permit application it was finished
space and it was given a building permit. Had
he realized that this was going to be such a
difficult problem, he would have changed it
then, but we have a building permit and we
have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is no CO on
the structure.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, we're waiting -- the
CO we're -- they wouldn't issue a CO because
they called it an apartment and we said we
don't want an apartment.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, they said you've got
a kitchen and in one of the reports said
remove the kitchen.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Right, which is what the --
well I guess the question is, if we remove the
sink does it legalize it? Does it allow us to
-- I don't know,
case.
BOARD ASST.:
there might be a
it doesn't seem to be the
One of the Inspectors said
way of making it a legal
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
accessory building and he could tell you how.
MRS. MOORE: But we still want to use the
space and that's the problem.
That's why you don't have a
BOARD ASST.:
CO.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to ask the
attorney what exactly is the status of the
rule about kitchens and stoves in accessory
buildings?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
(Inaudible).
Ail I can say and I
will say this on the record, now you probably
never heard me say this, this is one of the
unique parts about Southold and this is the
reason why Southold is what it is. Okay and
that we generally do not allow the utilization
of accessory structures and that is the reason
why we're asking you to attach it and give us
a figure on that.
MRS. MOORE: Well, we'll do the research
and see what -- how that can be --
BOARD ASST.: Adjourn it with a date or
without a date?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
23.
MRS. MOORE: Um --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
The date is April
MRS. MOORE: Oh, April is fine. April is
fine. By then we should have --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: April 23 at what
time, Linda?
BOARD ASST.: 2 pm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2 pm.
MRS. MOORE: This was the reason why
movement of all this occurred, she's a lovely
addition.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to adjourn
this hearing until April 23rd at 2:30 pm.
MEMBER OLIVA: So moved.
(See Minutes for Resolution.}
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6186 - 2000 Broadwaters LLC
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a
continuing hearing.
How are you, sir? Would you state your
name for the record?
MR. STRANG: yes. Garrett A. Strang,
Architect on behalf of 2000 Broadwaters LLC.
Good afternoon. Happy New Year.
At the conclusion of the last hearing the
Board requested that we make some amendments
to our application site plan that accompanied
the application, specifically, moving the
house further away.
BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, I went to open
up the map here and I can't hear you when the
map is getting opened so (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Garrett, we are not
discussing the 58-foot which is October 8,
2008; is that correct?
MR. STRANG: That's correct. We're
looking at the one that was revised December
19, 2008.
MEMBER OLIVA: Which was 54.
MR. STRANG: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll be with you
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
in a minute.
MR. STRANG: Take your time.
BOARD ASST.: When was the plan
submitted, Garrett?
MR. STRANG: The plans would have been
submitted either the date of the revision or
the next day the 19th or 20th of December. I
have a cover letter dated the 19th, so that's
probably when I walked it over.
BOARD ASST.: The 19tn of December?
MR. STRANG: Of December, yes.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, December 19th is
when the office received them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Somebody is going
to have to lend me their plan. You guys are
sitting together over there, would you lend me
the plan?
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) in the file,
it's not in the file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I got it from them.
BOARD ASST.: {inaudible) letter. The
last one that I have, Garrett, is October 20tn,
that I have for you. I have -- I'm not sure
that we have that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. STRANG: Okay, I hand delivered 7.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we have it.
MR. STRANG: I hand delivered 7 copies.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 12/19/08, the letter and
the plan.
MR. STRANG: Alright, it's black and
white prints, correct?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Can we
borrow that, please?
BOARD ASST.: Sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we borrow a
copy of that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have a copy,
I'll give you mine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I
meant, can I borrow that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can have a look at
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: While you're doing that,
may I ask Garrett a question?
MR. STRANG: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Linda, you just gave him
a copy of the letter, right?
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER WEISMAN: Garrett, did you have an
opportunity to read the letter from the Ropers
that we just received?
MR. STRANG: I just did a minute ago.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have a feeling that,
at least they've indicated in a letter that
they wanted to read it into the hearing
anyway, so we'll all get a chance to hear it
possibly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The neighbor is
going to read it anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's what I'm
saying. I just want to make sure Garrett had
a copy.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, I have a copy. I'm
not necessarily prepared to comment on it at
this moment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think we're
ready, Mr. Strang, and I do apologize.
MR. STRANG: No, no apology needed.
Just that what we're looking at at this
present time was the modification to the site
plan that the Board members requested at the
last hearing and that was to reduce the width
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
of the house to 54 feet, move it that 4 feet,
additional 4 feet I should say, away from what
I refer to as the northerly property line
which is the property line in common with
Mikulas and to not only do that, but reduce
and reconfigure the driveway so as it enters
from Broadwaters Road, it's not the full width
of the garage. It's reduced now to 12 feet
wide, which is enough to get a vehicle in and
maneuver into the garage. Part of the
reasoning behind that was to try to maintain
as much of the natural buffer along
Broadwaters as possible as well as enhance it.
In addition, as requested, we've placed on
this particular map the information from the
landscape plan, which notes enhancements to be
done to the natural vegetation both along
Broadwaters Road and along the northerly
property line common with Mikulas.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question on one thing? You said -- what is 12
feet?
MR. STRANG: The width of the driveway or
the curb cut if you want to refer to it as
such.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The driveway curb
cut, alright. The house is still at 14 at
it's closest point?
MR. STRANG: The house, which we agreed
would remain the same distance from Crabbers.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, which is 14.
MR. STRANG:
closest point, 20
at the deck.
Which is 14 feet at the
feet at the furthest point
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MR. STRANG: So at this point, we've made
this submittal for the Board's consideration
and I'm available to answer questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, you're
still number one on this.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, no I think this is
all clear in terms of what you're proposing as
an amended plan now. I remember Mr.
Geroulanos said that he was not terribly
inclined to reduce the width of the house
beyond 54 feet --
MR. STRANG: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- in width. It's still
going to be a very, very large house with a
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
very large deck on the seaward side that will
continue to run instead of 58 feet, 54 feet in
width. We still, of course, and I understand
why, don't have specific plans. We have an
original building diagram that shows grade and
so on and height, which makes it rather
difficult for people to interpret in terms of
character of the neighborhood impact, visual
impact, but I understand why your client and
you are reluctant to proceed because it's a
big investment to develop a whole series of
plans without, you know, not having to
redesign then if variances aren't granted.
I just want to, since our Town Attorney
is here and I know the neighbors have
addressed this business of potential merger,
let's just, while they're still looking at
things, clarify that. I think I understand
it, but since our attorney is here, let's let
him express just to clarify precisely where
this ZBA is now assuming we stand with that
claim from the neighbors.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, as I think is
evident in the letter from Counsel for the
applicant, the history of these parcels is
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
difficult to wade through. The deeds are --
there's a lot of old deeds and they're -- take
some thinking and reading. My analysis of it
is I did not see a merger. At the very least
I did not see enough to prove a merger. There
are a couple of different points. There's
Crabber's Road and it's an open question to me
at the moment who owns Crabber's Road. I saw
in one of the ancient deeds that one of the
adjacent properties at one -- at least in one
point in time owned to the centerline thereto.
I did not see that in any of the deeds with
the other adjacent property to connect those
dots and, in fact, subsequent deeds on that
one property didn't show ownership to the
centerline, too, so frankly I haven't seen
anything as to who owns Crabber's Road. I
don't know if the Association owns it, I don't
know if it's -- no one has made a claim to it.
I did not see in the deeds enough to show that
there was ever ownership of
the two -- in its entirety,
adjacent properties. There
suggestion of an easement
language in the easement,
Crabber's Road by
by the two
was some
and I did follow the
but the easement
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
that I saw appeared to relate to an easement
along the water's edge 15 feet from the high
water mark running along the water, which
seemed to me that it would not have been
Crabber's Road, but would have been an
easement that everybody in the area had a
right to to travel along and enjoy the
waterfront and I did not see that as
suggesting a merger either.
I don't think it's in -- I don't think
it's the Town's role to infer a merger, where
one is not shown completely. I think we have
enough trouble with the mergers that we can
show. So that was my conclusion that there
wasn't enough in the record to show a merger.
I'm sure people can disagree with that, but
that was my advice.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Kieran.
Okay. Thank you,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to make
sure that everybody is aware of that
determination that's here regarding this
application. Does everybody acknowledge what
the Assistant Town Attorney said?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I thought we would
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
clear that up since it was
procedure.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
part of the whole
Yes. And that, of
course, that doesn't bear on the granting of
variances, really, in any way, shape, or form.
You need to separately consider --
MEMBER SIMON: This means that the merger
question is a non-issue.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is moot.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, it's set
aside unless and until someone can come up
with something further.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you done,
Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I may come back.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
have seen some sort of,
Yes, for the time being.
have no questions.
I would have liked to
you know, some sort of
suggestion of what the building would look
like, the home, but I think we've discussed
that before and you said
unless you know.
you can't do that and
[Tape change.]
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. STRANG: -- cart goes away, so to
speak, which is quite an imposition, I think,
to place upon the applicant. I guess I can
visualize plans similar to Ms. Weisman with
respect to what was submitted diagramatically
to give an idea of the height of the building,
the massing of the building, the general style
of the building being a traditional North Fork
home, a Cape-look, but my understanding myself
is that is a pretty good representation of
what we're proposing, but I recognize the fact
that not everybody can visualize drawings the
same way I can.
MEMBER OLIVA: No. Or Leslie.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask you a
question, Mr. Strang, and that is your
applicant, you're representing the applicant,
but the applicant has reduced the size of the
building. You have seen the letter from one
of the neighbors requesting a further
reduction.
MEMBER OLIVA: To 45.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Are you going to
allow us to grant alternate relief? We
realize we don't necessarily need your
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
permission to do so, okay, in this
application, okay, but gratuitously we like to
do it. Okay, we like to ask that question, I
like to ask that question.
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It may come down to
the point where we may actually ask for,
excuse me, ask for alternate -- grant
alternate relief and may ask for submission of
the plans based upon that alternate relief, if
you are so inclined to continue with this
project after this decision, okay?
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so those are
the things that I'm just throwing out to you.
Remember this is a democratic Board, three
votes carry the motion. Okay? So I'm only
throwing that out to you, alright, and that's
where we are at this point. Based upon that,
if you have any questions toward the end of
the hearing, please raise your hand, shout out
whatever the case might be, okay?
MR. STRANG: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do thank you for
-- I thank you for your presentation
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
throughout this hearing and, you know, we'll
see how it goes. Okay?
MR. STRANG: Okay, I appreciate the
Board's continued interest in this matter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you have
something else? I apologize.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. I don't think asking
for a plan before a decision is made on a
variance is necessarily or very often putting
the cart before the horse. It's not unusual
for us to look at plans before -- in front of
us before we decide on a variance. Sometimes
they have to be redrawn; however, this is a
decision that can be made. My guess is since
there is some concern about alternative relief
and whether the house is going to be 54 feet
for example or 45 as a suggestion in this
letter, we might be less conservative on what
we would grant, if we knew what we were going
to see. In other words, the chances of
granting the 54 feet might be (inaudible) if
we had a better idea of what we were going to
see and it's, obviously, it's always a risk,
but the more we typically, well, you hope, the
more we know the more likely we are to be more
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January 8, 2009
favorable to your client. I'm just saying
that's the trade-off.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, I understand what
you're saying. I thinking along the lines in
response to the plans that keep coming up
again. I mean, basically, you have
diagramatic elevations. The next level beyond
that is rendered elevations, which basically
show what you have before you less
fenestration or windows and doors being shown,
siding being shown and things like that. So
interior layouts I don't know have any bearing
on this --
MEMBER SIMON: I agree.
MR. STRANG: -- Board's decision is going
to be based on. We're basically looking at
just nothing more than just enhancing the
drawings that I've already submitted.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MR. STRANG: With showing windows, doors
and siding materials.
MEMBER SIMON: It's the shell.
MR. STRANG: Essentially. Essentially,
I mean it doesn't deviate much from what
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little more enhanced, i understand what
you're saying and the need to do that I also
understand. Unfortunately, my client was
supposed to be here today. He was leaving
earlier, I assume he may have gotten caught up
in traffic snarls or whatever, I haven't heard
from him.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: okay.
MR. STRANG: He was planning on being
here. So certain issues I can't address on
his behal~ without his approval.
CHAIRMAN GOEHKINGER: Okay.
MEMBER DIN~ZIO: Can I comment? I ~us5
want to make a comment. I want th)s for Lhe
record. I wa[rt to distance myself on Mr.
Simon's suggestion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pardon me?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't actually think
that I would go one way or Lhe ocher wh~ther I
had a nice map or a nic~ picture of this house
or not. It wouldn't affect me either way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGEE: I ~±~n'~ say 15
would and I think you m/sconstrued what I
said.
MEMBER SIMON: NO, my commen~.
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CHAIF~AN GOEHRINGER: Oh, your comment.
MEMBER SIMON: My comment.
CHAIRMAN GOEiIRINGER: Who would like to
speak against this application, for or
against?
MR. MIKULA$: Rich Mikulas, neighbor to
the left. My wife is unuble to be here and
the Ropers are unable to be here. I guess
t~y faxed whatever they wrote.
CHAIRMAN GORHRINGER: Alright, standing
i.n front of the proposed house you are to the
left? To the right?
MR, MIKULAS: To the right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: TO the right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: To the right,
immediately.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A~d where are the
Ropers?
MR. MIKULAS: The Ropers are 5o the righL
of me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINCER: Right, that's what
I thought.
MK. MIKULAS: And th~ Owner ~f this
property is th~ --
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. MIKULAS: I just want to say all
concerns from previous meetings are still
concerns. Obviously, my request to review the
merger situation is what it is. I intend to
formalize additional paperwork, I think it's
been indicated that we need to do that.
Do you want me to read the letter that
the Ropers sent? She asked me to read it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're welcome to
read it or you're welcome -- we have it, it's
entirely up to you.
BOARD ASST.: We have it in the record.
MR. MIKULAS: You do, so that's a moot
point to read it, basically.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a moot point.
MR. MIKULAS: Okay, well I just wanted to
voice my continued concern.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Anybody else? Seeing no hands, I'll make
a motion reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING %6223 - Thomas G. and
Joyce I. Messina
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
l16A(1), based on the Building Inspector's
September 2, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed accessory swimming pool
and spa at less than 100 feet from the top of
the bank or bluff on a lot adjacent to the
Long Island Sound and with lot coverage
exceeding the code limitation
buildable land area of 15,253
1690 The Strand, East Marion;
of 20% on this
square feet, at
CTM 30-2-61."
Mrs. Mesiano, would you please state your
name for the record?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, Cathy Mesiano on
behalf of the applicants, Thomas and Joyce
Messina.
We are here requesting a variance for the
setback from the Sound and for lot coverage
for the construction of an in-ground swimming
pool on the north --
BOARD ASST.: Cathy, I'm having a little
trouble hearing you, sorry.
MRS. MESIANO: I'm sorry. On the north
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
side of the subject property at 1690 The
Strand, East Marion. Basically we have a
26,230 square foot waterfront parcel, 15,253
square feet of which is considered building
area under the Southold Code. The property is
improved with a two-story framed dwelling
garage and decks. The house is set back 100
feet from the bluff.
The proposed pool and spa with Code-
required fence and patio at grade is proposed
at 75 feet landward of the bluff. We're
requesting a 25 percent variance. The area
subject to the variance request is 641 square
feet and we are further requesting a variance
of 2.2 percent for the overage in lot coverage
that the pool construction will create.
I did quite a bit of research on this
because well I've been before the Board a few
times, so I kind of anticipated what was
coming and there are some facts I'd just like
to put on the record. Pebble Beach Farms was
the first cluster subdivision in Southold,
approved in 1975. Sound-front lots ranged
from a half to three-quarters of an acre with
widths ranging from approximately 64 to 80
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
feet. Also, consideration was given
concerning relief from the bulk requirements.
It does not appear that relief was extended to
lot coverage. Although the lots are
nonconforming with respect to R-40
requirements, R-40 standards apply.
I've reviewed a number of Town records
pertaining to variances that have been
requested on the waterfront properties along
The Strand and I find that there have been 12
variance requests made. Of the 12 variance
requests made, 8 of those were for setbacks
specifically for a swimming pool. The average
setback that was granted was 64.75 feet. The
average of all 12 bluff setback relief
variances was for 63 feet. So we certainly
have a precedent. I can provide the Board
with copies of all of the decisions, but I
will provide the Board, at this point in time,
with just a simple map with some notes I've
made on it that indicates which lots were
granted variances and I've got them here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is variances
in general?
MRS. MESIANO: No that's --
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MEMBER OLIVA: For a
bluff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
pool from the
For pools, alright.
MEMBER OLIVA:
them?
MRS. MESIANO:
Do you have the dates on
I have the year and the
variance application number as they're --
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: -- ascertainable. In all
instances, the requests were driven by the
same motivation. A 100-foot setback line was
imposed in the creation of the subdivision and
the subdivision specifically stated that the
dwelling shall not be constructed seaward of
that 100-foot setback, implying that accessory
structures may be considered, could be
considered. I don't want to read more into it
than there is, but it was specific. I believe
-- I'm quite sure you've all read my
submission and I did reiterate that, but I
will touch on that again, but primarily I just
want to make the statement that 8 variances
have been requested and granted and the
average setback relief granted is 64.75 feet.
We're asking for a 75-foot setback so your
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
average setback is approximately 34 percent,
33 percent, we're asking for 25 percent
setback.
MEMBER OLIVA: How, what are the
dimensions of the swinuning pool?
MRS. MESIANO: The swimming pool is 20 by
30 on grade with an on grade patio not raised
decking.
I would like to point out as well that
the topography of the backyard is unique in
that it is not formally terraced, but the
elevations do rise in steps and I have an
aerial photograph which depicts that. The
elevations are noted on the survey. The
elevations are noted on the survey that I
submitted with the application, but this
aerial photograph says it better than I can.
MEMBER OLIVA: Cathy, did you get the
letter from Mark Terry?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, I did.
MEMBER OLIVA: That it is inconsistent,
of course, because it is not 100-foot back?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, I did.
MEMBER OLIVA: What can we do to make it
more consistent that we can give you some
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relief?
MRS. MESIANO: Well, we will certainly
put in the required drywells located, of
course, landward of the pool that would
eliminate any run-off from the pool being
generated and in other instances I saw that
conditions that the pool and patio would not
be connected to the structure nor would ever
be roofed over as being another consideration.
Since we don't propose any ground disturbance
any more than five or six feet beyond the
perimeter of the pool proper, I couldn't go so
far as to add additional plantings outside of
that area because
point.
MEMBER OLIVA:
trusted assistant
it's well vegetated at this
Yes, I know. I had my
walk down to the bottom of
the
car.
bluff and give me a report as I sat in the
MRS. MESIANO: I don't have one of those,
thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA:
vegetated.
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
And he said it was well-
Yes. Yes, it is.
With huge boulders down at
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
the foot of the bluff.
MRS. MESIANO: Yeah, for a bluff-front
property it's a fairly secure site. I know
nothing is forever, but it's in a lot better
shape than a lot of other properties I've
seen.
MEMBER OLIVA: How is the equipment going
to get in to dig out the in-ground pool?
MRS. MESIANO: They will have to come
along the -- let me just look at the survey.
MEMBER OLIVA:
assume.
MRS. MESIANO:
The east side, I would
No, the east side
is a
steps
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I know because I couldn't
little difficult because there's some
and also the setback is smaller.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: They'd have to come up
along the west side.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: It wouldn't be without
difficulty, but that's where they would have
to --
MEMBER OLIVA:
walk there.
MRS. MESIANO: -- take some of the hedges
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out temporarily, bring the equipment in and
then replace them because it's well-vegetated,
beautifully landscaped. So that's where the
only access could be, would be on the west
side because we've got 11.4 feet so it would
be accessible there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cathy, I don't see
any drywell on the site plan.
MRS. MESIANO: I realized that as I was
doing my paperwork yesterday, but I will give
you, of course, a revised plan with a drywelt
indicted and I would hazard a guess that the
drywell would have to be located in the
southwest corner of the pool/patio area just
seaward of the bay window of the house.
That's the most accessible and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You say you have the
pump equipment in a sound-deadening cabinet.
Put that on there.
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Yes.
It is a condition.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Secondly or
thirdly, this is a -- I think I read somewhere
this is a steel-wall pool or is it a gunite
pool?
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MRS. MESIANO: Uh, I don't believe I
indicated. I don't believe I indicated.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, do you know
what it is?
MRS. MESIANO: I don't know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you find that
out for us?
MRS. MESIANO: I will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I remember reading
one of these applications there was a steel-
wall pool.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MESIANO:
I remember it also.
Okay, I just want to, just
for the record, the area of the -- the grade
of the area where the pool is proposed is
between 66 and 67 feet. The grade increases
to approximately 70 feet the closer you get to
the bluff. So there is a definite change in
grade higher as you go closer to the bluff.
So the potential for run-off degradation of
the bluff is greatly minimized.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's all going to roll
back toward the house and the pool.
MRS. MESIANO: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the reason
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for the need of a large drywell to be able to
accommodate that in a really, really driving
rain.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes. I understand and I
do know that there is a lot of drainage on-
site already. I don't have the final survey
from the previous owner, but I will get that
and show what the drainage actually is and
make the determination whether or not it's
adequate or if we need additional rings put
in.
Can you tell me what specification the
Board likes to see the calculations for?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the
different, there are two different issues
here. Okay, when there's a flat, I know I
always say that, no lot is flat, okay, but the
majority of a relatively even graded lot,
okay, the concern is merely for the basis, not
overflow of the pool, but pumping the pool to
the point where you're merely concerned about
backwash at that point.
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it flows over a
little bit, what's the difference, but in a
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situation like this where it's going to flow,
God forbid, toward the cliff, which you've
clearly stated it will not, but flowing toward
the house I have to tell you that's have to
handle at least almost half the water that's
in that pool.
MRS. MESIANO: Let me just point out,
too, that the driveway is lower than the house
and it's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know, yeah.
MRS. MESIANO: -- pervious and there's
drainage in there, but I nevertheless will
make sure that the drainage is adequate as
you've just noted.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
large pool, but with that
It's not a terribly
20 feet you make up
for the difference between the 18
situation.
at
that
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
answered your question.
and the 36
MRS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
18-20,000 gallons.
MRS. MESIANO: Well, we'll make sure
there's adequate drainage.
I hope that
So you have to be
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MRS. MESIANO:
need out of it, if not,
as we go along.
Okay --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I think I can get what I
I'll just make it up
Is there anybody
else who would like to speak at all?
MEMBER SIMON: Just a question. The
variance, the lot coverage variance, is more
than 10 percent variance you're asking for and
usually the rule of thumb is we tend to be
fairly generous other things being equal when
it's 10 percent or less, and I just wondered
whether if the Board felt it was appropriate
to do this to have a slightly smaller pool in
order to reduce that to say --
MRS. MESIANO: I --
MEMBER SIMON: Now I figured out, for
example, if the pool were 16 feet wide rather
than 20, I think that would require only a 21
percent. It would reduce the lot coverage to
something like 21.4 percent.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay, well if I could
direct you, please to the sketch that I handed
Mr. Goehringer and if you look at variance
#6027 it was granted in 2007, that was granted
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a 23 percent area.
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
Okay, I see.
Lot area coverage and
we're asking for less than that.
MEMBER SIMON: Which property is that? I
didn't catch that.
MRS. MESIANO: It's two parcels to the
east, just for the sake of location. It's
variance %6027 and that was granted in 2007.
BOARD ASST.: You said that was 23
percent, but you're
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
that other pool?
MRS. MESIANO:
asking for 25 percent.
No, no.
What is the setback on
The setback on that pool
I'll tell you in just a minute.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cathy, I think
where the mistake was, originally when you did
the presentation you said it was 25 percent
and you meant -- and then you came back and
said it was 22.2.
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
22.2 percent.
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay.
Okay, the lot coverage is
Okay.
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BOARD ASST.: What is the variance?
MRS. MESIANO: The variance for the pool
setback we're requesting is 25 percent.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, well that is -- what
is the -- that's in this case. What was the
setback on the other one?
MRS. MESIANO: The setback on the other
property that I just mentioned was granted at
70 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MESIANO:
variance.
MEMBER SIMON:
23 percent, 25?
30 percent.
That was a 30-percent
Okay, now it was the 23
percent for lot coverage or setback?
MRS. MESIANO: The 23 percent was the lot
coverage that was approved.
MEMBER SIMON: For the 23 percent and
this other pool was?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, 70 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: For 70 feet rather than
75.
MRS. MESIANO: So it was closer to the
bluff than we're requesting.
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MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MESIANO: And the lot coverage is
greater than we're requesting.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: Did I clarify that?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, you did. Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay. If it would help, I
will provide the Board with copies of all the
variances. There was quite a bit of
information, so I didn't make packages on it,
but if you would like it, I will provide it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would be
helpful, I mean, you don't think so?
MEMBER SIMON: I think since we're
viewing most of these on this particular
property and while the information about the
comparative variances is important they may
not be as important as the particulars of this
particular lot or now and what were the most
recent ones. I haven't had a chance to study
this, some of those variances go back to 1990,
some of them go back to 2004.
BOARD ASST.: This is a character of the
neighborhood situation.
MRS. MESIANO: The character, well I
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haven't gotten there yet,
way --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
but I was working my
but the character of
the neighborhood situation to date doesn't
really matter.
MRS. MESIANO: Just
dates run as recently as
variances are 1986.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
to address that, the
2007 and the oldest
I'd be interested in
what the trend has been in terms, I mean, have
variances been more generous or less generous
over the years?
MRS. MESIANO: They really didn't -- they
didn't show a line, a specific trend. We had
1992 at 50 feet, we had 1999 at 60 feet, 1986
at 80 feet, 2007 at 70 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MESIANO: 2003 85 feet, '87 85 feet,
2000 was 50 feet with a house granted at 86
feet and 1988 a variance for a gazebo at 12
feet from the bluff was approved. Another in
1988 at 60 feet and another in 2000 at 63
feet.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright, again if one
wanted to get more technical, I don't
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particularly do, is we might consider is the
bluff where it was in 1988 for example and the
history of the change in the bluff would also
be relevant. I don't know how much relevant
it would be.
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MESIANO:
MEMBER SIMON:
I think in this case --
It's really stable.
Is it?
It's quite stable.
Okay, evidence that it's
stable would be quite useful to us obviously,
because what we -- you know, we have cases
where someone says this looks okay, yes, but
15 years ago it was 15 feet further out.
That's relevant.
MRS. MESIANO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Therefore, the stability
is relevant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well you have
several (inaudible)
just wood.
MEMBER SIMON:
on this bluff, it's not
Yeah, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When you get a
chance, Mrs. Mesiano, if you could furnish
with that just on the pool issues, that would
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
be greatly appreciated.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not something
you have to do tomorrow.
What else would you like to do before you
finish?
MRS. MESIANO: Let me ask you if a survey
that was used at the time that the stairs down
the bluff was approved by the Trustees and the
DEC showing the grades, they're at 10-foot
intervals, showing these grades if that would
help the Board?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MRS. MESIANO: I have Jung and Jung dated
August 8, 2006.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: Okay, hopefully to wrap it
unless there are more questions, an
undesirable change will not be produced in the
character of the neighborhood. An in-ground
swimming pool is permitted accessory use in an
R-40. The proposed setbacks setback fencing
and screening plantings are planned so as to
complement the area maintaining the neighbor's
vistas and privacy and, to quote from an
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earlier decision, %4801 dated 5 of 2000, many
of the properties in the area have similar
setbacks.
Swimming pools are not uncommon in the
neighborhood. The benefit sought by the
applicant cannot be achieved by some other
method. The subject site provides no
conforming location for a swimming pool or any
other accessory structure. The amount of
relief requested is not substantial. I think
that speaks for itself. Our variance is less
than others that have been granted in the
immediate area. The variance will not have an
adverse affect in the impact of -- will not
have an adverse affect or impact on the
physical or environmental conditions.
Proposed location preserves the vistas of the
neighboring properties.
All necessary erosion control measures
will be implemented during and post
construction. No encroachment into the
Coastal Erosion Hazard area is proposed. A
66-foot minimum setback to the Coastal Erosion
Hazard area is proposed. The topography of
the lot is gently sloping toward the south;
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therefore, potential for erosion of the bluff
is minimized.
We do not believe that the variance has
been self-created. Setback requirements have
changed since creation of the subdivision and
recording of the declaration of covenants and
restrictions in 1975. The definition of lot
coverage and buildable land has changed
subsequent to the construction of the existing
dwelling and the practical difficulties
encountered in the development of this site
have precluded the addition of any conforming
accessory structures. After meeting the
required front and bluff setbacks, no
conforming buildable area exists on the site.
(Inaudible) state that "the owner of a
waterfront lot shall not construct any part of
the dwelling northerly of the approximate 100-
foot bluff setback line shown on the filed map
unless approved by the Town of Southold."
Clearly, at the time the map was approved
other improvements north of the dwelling were
contemplated. Changes in the Code subsequent
to the approval of the subdivision imposes a
hardship on owners of lots created before the
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implementation of the LWRP and current setback
and lot requirements.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: You're quite welcome.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
I'd like to make a motion closing the
hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6237 George Yatrakis
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-15C and 280-116A(1), based on the Building
Inspector's October 8, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed dwelling,
swimming pool, trellis and accessory garage.
The reasons stated for disapproving the
building permit application are: (1) the
proposed locations of the trellis to be added
to the house, and accessory swimming pool, are
not permitted at less than 100 feet from the
top of the bluff or bank on lots adjacent to
the L.I. Sound; (2) the in-ground swimming
pool is also proposed in a side yard, rather
than the code-permitted front yard in the case
of a waterfront lot, or code-permitted rear
yard; (3) new construction is proposed at less
than the code-required minimum of 15 feet on a
single side yard. Location of Property:
18805 Soundview Avenue, Southold; CTM 51-1-
MRS. MOORE: Yes, Thank you very much.
have with me this afternoon, I have Mr. and
Mrs. Yatrakis, the owners of the property.
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also have Joe Fischetti who's been helping me
in both analyzing the bluff as well as the
sanitary issues that are complex here on any
piece of property. This piece has no public
water so we deal with wells and sanitary
locations. So right off the bat I asked Joe
to assist me as a professional engineer. I
also have Angel Chorno, the architect, and
he's here if we need his help, but I think for
the most part I'll have Joe
with respect to issues here
I'll start off with as
Fischetti testify
on this property.
you know this is a
vacant parcel. Well, it has a building at the
top of the bank. It is a dilapidated
structure and the intention is that that
building will be removed. So it -- from your
inspection it's probably already close to
being removed by nature anyway. The -- when
we began this application and I gave you two
surveys so you could see how we mitigated
right from the beginning. When this survey
was first done for Mr. Yatrakis, the surveyor
John Metzger, Peconic Surveyors, identified
the top of the bank or the top of the bluff
and he uses the term, cause we asked him Joe
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and I both in a conference call with John, we
said is there a difference in your terminology
and as far as he as a surveyor is concerned he
uses the term top of bank and top of bluff
interchangeably. So in his survey he uses one
and we had him just correct terminologies, but
he began when he first did the survey for my
client he identified the top of the bank where
it appears between the 30 and 38 foot
elevations. You can see that on -- I
highlighted it for you to make the line easier
to see, and you can see and we asked him why
was it that you identified this being the top
of the bank? He said, well as a surveyor I
look at the soil conditions and vegetation and
base the determination as a professional where
the top of the bank appears to be based on the
material, the sand material where it converts
over to a slope and, in this instance, he felt
comfortable that in his opinion the top of the
bank was still where he originally identified
it, but what we did when Joe and I first went
and looked at the property we both felt that
conservatively we felt that for the benefit of
the client, the benefit of the design of soil
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
improvements that we would identify the top of
the bluff at the 52-foot elevation.
We have an interesting situation here
with this property there is a bluff and then
there's the bank and it's almost like a
double, the topography there's almost a double
steep slope, which is where John had
originally identified top of bank and then
there's a lesser slope and vegetation that
reaches a plateau which is where we identified
the top of the bluff. So we're saying to you
right from the beginning, we've used the top
of the bluff as the most conservative top of
bluff in setbacks and that's what the Building
Department used for their Notice of
Disapproval. Is that what you're about to ask
me or you look like you almost have a question
to ask me.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Everything you're
saying is taking away my questions, which is
good.
MRS. MOORE:
that's my job.
Okay, good. I'm glad,
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It sounds like
you're using the furthest landward definition
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MRS. MOORE: Yes. Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- or precipitous
edge as our Code reads it, but if you're going
the other way, it would get complicated, but
it looks like you're coming back.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Right. Thank you.
Okay, well I'm glad we answered the questions.
In any case what I want to express to you
is that my client right from the beginning we
were trying to address the existing conditions
of this property and took the most
conservative approach. We also have the
Coastal Erosion Hazard Line, which is kind of
bisects the two lines and we are well -- we
are landward of that as well.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Just so we're
clear, I'm sorry.
MRS. MOORE: Yes? I know you guys were
talking over there.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, no, I just
want to make sure we're on the same page. So
the distances we're using for this application
are the 62-foot and the 32-foot, not the 70
and --
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MRS. MOORE: Correct, yes. Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: That's why I mentioned it.
It was the final, the survey that is
identified as last revised was September 11,
2008 is the one that the Notice of Disapproval
is based on.
BOARD ASST.:
map then that's --
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
and not the map
12.
MRS. MOORE:
So we should be using the
Yes.
-- dated September 11, 2008
that you just gave us, March
Yes, for -- yes, I gave you
-- I was not trying to confuse you, I was
trying to give you the illustration of how we
were mitigating the condition and taking the
most conservative approach possible for that
purpose.
I also gave you a photograph that amazing
satellite imagery that shows you the
development of properties along the Sound
here. Where the property to the east and the
west of us is developed and it's very -- to
the west of us, for example, I have, and Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Goehringer has the benefit of my client's
Google map that is better than ours, which has
a really nice angle coming from -- aerial
looking from the Long Island Sound to the
property. It has a very nice close up and it
shows that on the west side and the property
known as Beatrice Dupont's that has a house
that is almost right on the Coastal Erosion
Line, the primary dwelling, and then there is
also another beach house and dwelling and deck
which is showing very clearly on our survey,
but also on the aerial photograph that is down
at the beach and so clearly the properties
along this area on Soundview Avenue have been
heavily developed along this Sound-front and
then you also see obviously homes further to
the west that they are also equally developed
close to the top of the bluff.
To the west of us as well, we have
(inaudible) showing on my survey and I
apologize if I misidentify the owner now or
formerly, the house on the east
house also is very close to the
of these, what's interesting to
aerial is that when they were clearing their
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Sound and all
see on the
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property and creating yards they actually
looked at the top of bluff that would have
been John Metzger's original map that I gave
you for illustration. So, again, our property
is being developed in much more conservative
fashion than the surrounding properties, but
there is clearly the character of the area
here is Sound-front homes closely set to the
top of the bank or top of bluff. Now, so as
I've now explained the two documents I gave
you.
When we began, as we do with any vacant
property, we are not only constrained from
setbacks from the bluff, but we are also
constrained by the sanitary regulations and in
this along Soundview Avenue public water has
not been extended to this area, so we are
constrained by people's well that -- and you
can see from our survey, we have had to place
our sanitary system at a minimum of 100 feet
if not more, the Code requires 150 unless the
well is going to be -- can go down to 40 feet,
but for the most part we can't, we are
nonconforming with respect to setbacks from
our neighboring wells and from our own well to
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sanitary. We are before the Board of Review
and Joe Fischetti will do a sanitary report
and will present all that to the Board of
Review at the Health Department and he is
confident that the Board of Review will grant
this because our well, the well to sanitary is
-- the well is up gradient from the sanitary,
so there really aren't issues of health here.
When it comes to the placement of the
house, we are again constrained by where our
sanitary has to go and where the house can fit
around the sanitary. So that was done early
on and we actually have the sanitary. As part
of the sanitary regulations, we have to dig
the hole confirm that the quality of the
subsoils are adequate for sanitary and fill
the hole up back with sand and that was done
so they actually have an approved area that
has been reviewed by the Health Department,
but that's still pending.
So now we come to the point where we've
got the sanitary, identified neighboring wells
and also, I don't want to forget, my client
did approach the Water Authority. They
offered to extend the water line at a cost of
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about $200,000.00, but with the understanding
that we needed to find out if neighbors would
want to hook up and my client they tell me on
Thanksgiving Day went door to door to
everybody along the street and said, listen if
we, you know, it's best if we all connect to
public water that's the right thing to do
here. No one was interested, actually two
houses were interested, but that would not
have been enough for the Water Authority to do
it without imposing a significant expense.
Our -- the neighbors on both sides of us were
not interested in connecting to public water,
had they been interested in doing that,
certainly that would have eliminated many of
the issues that we are faced here, but that is
their prerogative and we must honor that.
So we now put the house on the property.
We have tried to maximize the setback of the
house. My client does want a pool and we
wanted to make sure that right from the
beginning we made provisions for placement of
a pool which as many of these Sound-front
houses the pool is in the side yard because
everything we're trying to move everything
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
back. The survey that you have shows a patio,
but that is a pervious patio on grade. It is
not a variance -- you don't need to issue
variances on that, but I used the same survey
for the Trustees and we want to show where all
activity is. So when you see the patio that
surrounds the pool and in the back of the
house, that is a on-grade pervious patio. So
our setbacks remain 32 and 62 from the house.
62 from the house and 32 from the pool.
The variance for the garage, well it
would be logical that on -- unfortunately, our
Code has not caught up with the setback issues
when you're dealing with waterfront properties
where you're discounting development area, but
you're still using the setbacks applicable to
square footage of the entire property, so to
make this garage conforming it would
essentially be placed right in the middle of
the property and would be very aesthetically
unpleasing to anybody to have the first thing
that you do as you come to a property to have
garage centered right in the middle of a
property. So our request is for a variance to
move the garage over to a 10-foot setback,
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which was the old Code and placing it in a
more reasonable location when it comes to
proportionally with the house and the -- the
house.
So I think I've given you a rundown of
everything I can think of at this point. I do
have Joe here and he can certainly give you
some information on the sanitary and on the
bluff, but if you have specific questions or
would you like Joe to come up at this point?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no objection
to Mr. Fischetti ever coming up, but the
question I have --
MRS. MOORE: I thought there was a
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is you need to
address the LWRP and the Soil and Water
letters.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, well the LWRP, as you
know this property is preexisting and any
development within 100 feet of the top of the
bank and, again, we've used the more
conservative, we would have been further back,
we would have been at 70 had we used the top
of the bank that was previously identified, we
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can't -- LWRP all we can do is deal with
drainage issues, make sure there's no drainage
and we've mitigated already we've incorporated
many of the mitigation measures that I've
discussed to address LWRP, but as you know the
LWRP says you're inconsistent if you're within
100 feet. Well and we've done --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you submit a
letter indicating every one of those areas
that you've done?
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I will do that, that's
not a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what about --
MRS. MOORE: Soil and Water. Soil and
Water actually made some very helpful
coraments. We have no issues with them. We
felt where Soil and Water deals with the
making sure that we don't have water runoff
going down the bank.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And that certainly is our
intent here and our goal. We will have
drywells for all structures. We will make
sure that no water runs down. They suggested
a small berm to change the -- to make sure
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
that the grade -- we have no problem. It
would be a small berm that could be easily
accomplished at the top of the bluff or within
the area where the old building remains show.
We could certainly incorporate that into our
ultimate plan and I would obviously need the
Trustees to agree to that because there would
be activity involved with a berm.
MEMBER SIMON: Does that mean you're
withdrawing the part of the trellis?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, we didn't know
what to do with this building, quite frankly.
We -- if the Board feels that -- oh yes. Soil
and Water suggests that that not be there.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, we would agree, we have
no problem with that. We didn't really know
at the time that the first application went in
it was included and we said, alright, fine,
leave it in, but we anticipated that if you
wanted that removed that would not be a
problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're withdrawing
it from the application?
MRS. MOORE: Trellis and any structure in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
that area would be removed and not replaced.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: That's all. So, yes, we
would concur with Soil and Water's
recommendations there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going to
stabilize any portion of that area of the
bluff that's eroding? I'm talking about --
I'm not necessarily -- that has been scored,
okay.
MRS. MOORE: Well, we would like to, very
much we would like to and the problem is that
you can't do anything there without the DEC's
involvement. We have a plan in the works and
we have -- we propose, actually we have
applied to the DEC with a plan, but they
didn't like our drawing. It had been done by
someone, a friend of Mr. Yatrakis. It was
very clear, it was lovely, but it wasn't
signed and we've -- they weren't happy with
it, so I'm actually in the midst of getting
somebody that can, you know, sign it, sign-off
and it was either -- it's probably going to
involve some form of a retaining wall -- What
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was it?
MR.
MRS. MOORE:
MR. YATRAKIS:
MRS. MOORE:
rocks at the toe.
BOARD ASST.:
use the mike.
MRS. MOORE:
FISCHETTI: It's a retaining wall.
It's a retaining wall, um --
The bottom has rocks.
Yes, I'm sorry, with some
Identify the speakers and
I'm sorry, they're helping
me remember what the plan was.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It was Mr.
Fischetti and Mr. Yatrakis.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. It was some rock
revetment at the toe of the slope, but my
biggest concern, our biggest concern was to
stabilize that sandy area that has eroded due
to water that has come off and, quite frankly,
it's due to water runoff that's coming from
adjacent property that we have to address and,
in fact, we wrote -- the Trustees I believe
had issue with a pipe that was exposed and not
our pipe, it was a neighboring pipe that I
think has to be dealt with. So that will be
addressed, but we're right in the midst of
doing it and I can't tell you how it's going
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to be done because we have to defer to an
engineer and with the DEC's help, but yes,
that is part of the overall plan here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that engineer
present today?
MRS. MOORE: No,
speak for yourself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that is --
MRS. MOORE: Yes?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I asked Joe if he -- Joe
now
Before he speaks,
MRS. MOORE: I can, what I can do is give
you the plan we've submitted to DEC, which was
not an engineered plan, and we have to convert
it and get it designed.
Joe, why don't you come up?
I have it here, I can give you a copy of
it -- I'll do it by letter.
MR. FISCHETTI:
BOARD ASST.:
the record.
MR. FISCHETTI:
It's a retaining wall --
Joe Fischetti speaking for
Joe Fischetti, Southold.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just pull
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you're going to
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that mike down a little? Thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, the wall that was
there that Pat and I met about, it's a little
tricky in that it will need tiebacks into the
bluff and probably screw ties and you really
need somebody, a geological engineer, to
really do that and sometimes you just, you let
it go to the professionals and to the ones who
are good at it. I mean I've done retaining
walls before, but this needs somebody who's a
little bit better at it to do a perfect job
with those tiebacks. So, no, I will not be
doing that particular one. I gave her some
recommendations for other engineers to do
that.
MRS. MOORE: I actually did find, I'll
put it, submit it to you now, it was the plan
that had originally been submitted to the DEC,
but when Joe and I, when Joe looked at it he
said, this retaining wall doesn't show the
tiebacks, the engineering behind it that we
need, and this was a nice plan, it's just not
fully engineered, but it can give you an idea
of what we do want to accomplish here. It
does not impede our ability to develop the
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land portion,
the ultimate overall plan
of this property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a more consistent aspect.
the upland portion, but it is
for the development
We're using that as
MRS. MOORE: Oh fine. This can, well,
you can certainly (inaudible) as to the LWRP.
If you want to say that -- we've already
all agreed we want to do it. We just have --
we need permission from the DEC. You can't do
any of this without the Trustees and DEC, the
DEC probably taking the primary role here. So
I wouldn't want any application conditioned on
it because that -- the DEC, as you know, could
be two, three years or, you know, multiple
revisions back and forth, but it is the
ultimate goal here to address the condition of
the bluff through either vegetation or some
form of structure to the extent the DEC and
Trustees allow us to do it. So that is
certainly the LWRP -- Soil and Water I think
is the one where that came from and for LWRP
as far as making the project more consistent,
we are addressing the long term stability of
this bluff.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you referring
to, Mr. Fischetti, not that you would be doing
this, a stepping process in that area?
MR. FISCHETTI: It's just one wall and
then backfilling that wall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's all we'd need.
need.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yes.
That's all it would
You can see from
that drawing and that would take some new
structure to handle that and the tiebacks
going into the wall and not actually sinking
piles because I don't -- you can't get piles
in, John Costello talked about that. You
can't get (inaudible) over there, so you have
to use screw ties and those are easier to deal
with at that point, but (inaudible)
engineering and soil analysis.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Mr. -- Dr. Yatrakis
just gave me a letter that Costello and I'll
just piece from it, he said that a simple
solution would be to hydro-seed both areas of
erosion and redirect the water coming off the
road. So he suggested Tim Coffey, Tim Coffey
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is an example, but it would be hydro-seeding.
So if you wanted to make that as a -- that
certainly is a reasonable condition. I don't
think any -- I don't think I need Trustees'
approval for hydro-seeding. The DEC I know I
don't need.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that on the
upland area or the bluff area?
MRS. MOORE: No bluff. We're only
talking about the bluff. The upland area is
not an issue we have, it's vegetated. It's
actually vegetated from the lower bluff to the
upper bluff. That whole area is already
vegetated and water runoff will be addressed
with our development and if we implement a
small berm at the top so that -- between the,
I think the best location for a berm would be
where that little structure is. That general
area would make sense because you'd create an
impediment to water. Obviously, water doesn't
run uphill, so we want to create a grade that
prevents any water from going down the bluff.
Okay.
MR. FISCHETTI: Let me discuss the
sanitary issue here. I got involved in this
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job early on because when I analyzed the
property for the sanitary. If you notice the
McDonald test hole data, we have clay sand
down to 42 feet, which is always a problem on
the bluff area for sanitaries. I've done
probably a couple of dozen of these on the
bluff and what happens is, depending on the
soil conditions and if we hit rock or we hit
boulders, where you think you can put a
sanitary may not be where you can put it. So
I told Dr. Yatrakis early on, I said, we're
going to have to locate the sanitary, go in
there, see if we can actually dig this soil,
and, if we can't, we need to move it to where
we can actually dig this sanitary system.
When I finish that, then you can work around
me and that's actually what we did.
A few months ago, towards the suramer, we
got a crane in there and we -- and Pat said it
was approved by the Health Department, it
wasn't, cause they wouldn't even talk to us
because we didn't have a submission, so we're
really trying to figure out what's happening
here. So we got a crane in there and we dug
down and we found, we broke through the clay,
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we went down to good soil, we backfilled it
all and I said, we got a hole. So at that
point we designed the house and the well
systems around that, basically, and that's
where that is right now. So what we'll do,
our submission, we do have 65 feet and 110
feet and 100 feet from adjacent wells and the
proposed well. Both of them -- all the wells
are up gradient and lateral. I have gone to
the Board of Review and they will approve
these. These are outside the area of
influence of the wells where you won't be
sucking in any effluent. So this is
approvable and that's what I told Dr. Yatrakis
at that point. So we're kind of working
around that hole when we designed this and
that's what you have right now.
MEMBER SIMON: Regarding something about
a 32-foot setback for the swimming pool and a
lot about general questions
the bluff and so forth, but
setback for a swimming pool
by our past standards. Pat,
comment on that?
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
about protecting
the 32-foot
is pretty minimal
do you want to
The reason actually I
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gave you the old map because again our 32-foot
is from a secondary conservative top of bluff
where the -- we're actually at 50 feet, yeah,
we're about 20 feet further in from the
measurement that we have for the Building
Department versus what is the topographic
features and setbacks that are there. So I
appreciate the fact that numerically it looks
very -- it looks like a short distance.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: But I would also point out
look at the neighboring houses, their full
homes are essentially less than 32 feet
because our pool is further away than the
neighbor's house, which is looking at their
existing beach house and how, you know, going
up their house is probably right at the
Coastal Erosion Hazard Line when I scale it
out from the aerial and our survey. So that
is the way the area is developed. I
appreciate that 32 feet numerically is a
tight, tight distance, but it is actually 20
feet back from what could, you know, we could
have been pushing is a top of the bluff/bank
that the surveyor identified.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but you can't --
but you can't keep going back and forth as it
suits you in terms of dimensions. I mean --
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the bottom line is
the Notice of Disapproval is congruent with
your survey that you said we're going to be
using.
MRS. MOORE: But let me --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That survey says, just a
minute --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- 32 feet. Now, it's
also a side yard. This is a brand-new house.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It can be designed in a
million different ways. Having described all
of the issues with the sanitary, you can also
have issues with digging for a swimming pool
on this property, period. There is no reason
why you cannot either eliminate the pool or
design it in such a way that it's in the front
yard. You know, I mean the house is being
proposed at 62 feet, the current bluff has
substantial erosion, which by anyone's and
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everyone knows and admits it, okay? There is
significant erosion. We were all at that
site, walked it, you know,
over the side of the bluff.
concerned that's practical
practically fell
As far as I'm
today on what we
have to adhere to, not the way the
neighborhood developed without benefit of
environmental consciousness. We have laws
that reflect a greater awareness about
preservation of property and life and the
natural landscape than we had then and so I
think those arguments are really not on the
table about the fact that some neighbor's
property is much closer. Would that we could
lift it and push it back, but it's there. It
doesn't mean that you repeat the problem.
I think on a brand-new property -- it's
one thing if you bought an existing house and
were trying to fit in an accessory structure,
but when you can design with a blank slate,
this is a five-bedroom house you're proposing
and it is substantial and, you know, I think
62 feet from the top of that bluff is too
close to that bluff. I think your argument
that it's all based upon position of the
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sanitary tells me that either you make a
smaller house so that you have a better
setback or you find a way to change the
sanitary so that this is set closer to the
road and farther from the bluff.
MRS. MOORE: My point is that with
respect to the setback 32 feet I would point
that when you look at a house that is 32 feet
from a road, but in fact a drive -- the
roadway has another 20 feet of green space
before you actually get to the road, that's
the point I'm trying to make. That
numerically when you're looking at a survey,
32 feet, yes, I grant you is close, but, in
fact, we have some room to play with. We have
20 feet where we do have --
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
me?
MEMBER SIMON:
But that's in dispute.
-- a bluff that is -- pardon
That's in dispute whether
you have 20 feet to play with. I mean, far be
it for me to disagree with a conservative
assessment of this (inaudible) line --
MRS. MOORE: We -- I understand, but I --
MEMBER SIMON: -- but you can't assume
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that that's --
MRS. MOORE:
if you say 32
client wants a pool
in a side yard. As
clean slate or with
Well we need some guidance -
is too close, we want -- my
and it's a proposed pool
you said, if we're with a
a undesigned house, if you
say well we don't want a house or a pool
closer than the pool 60, the house 62, well
okay. We know what our parameters are. That
we're here with a variance for a pool in a
side yard, it gives us the flexibility to work
with a the setback of where this pool should
go and if my client has to go back and
redesign a house because he really, really,
really wants it or doesn't want to give up a
pool and I've had clients that were willing to
give up the design of their house because the
pool was the paramount desire. We just need
to know what our parameters are.
MEMBER SIMON: For the sake of
accommodation, we're talking about not giving
up the design of the house, we're talking
about making an accommodation to satisfy all
of the client's needs. If the client wants
the pool, the client may have to make a
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decision as to how the house is going to be
located. These things are all interconnected,
that's the beauty of dealing with an
undeveloped piece of land.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: And so sometimes the
reasons are different. The lot is not 200
feet wide, but it
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
is 100 feet wide.
Um-hmm.
That's not terribly narrow
and to get back to my point is that because
the garage should not be closer to the center
than it would be with a variance along 10 feet
rather than 15 feet, okay, maybe yes, maybe
no. These, all things have to be adjusted.
Everything is up for grabs at this point
because there is nothing that's already in the
ground and the pool, how big a pool, where you
want the pool, what affect that's going to
have on the size and location of the house and
the garage, by the way, all these things are
going to have to be considered and I don't
think we've very close to a position where we
can talk about alternative relief because
there are some hard decisions. We're not in
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the business of designing or creating site
plans. We're in the business of tweaking
them, sometimes. So I just think from
Leslie's questions and others' that there is a
lot more work that still has to be done.
Obviously they want you to get your house and
have as many things on that property as you
possibly can, but
clearly.
MRS. MOORE:
which comes first,
something's have to give,
Okay, the problem we have is
the chicken or the egg
here. We can design and I've had these
applications where I've designed four or five
times and then the decision comes back in such
a way, I say why did we waste five designs?
So I need a little guidance from this Board
sometimes because I don't want to waste a lot
of back and forth.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pat, it's clear
that the kitchen/laundry room has to be moved
if you want to move the pool back. It's
clear, okay.
MRS. MOORE: Can I (inaudible) --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's the
(inaudible) of the house.
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MRS. MOORE: Alright, help me out, I'm
looking at the survey, I'm not looking at the
design.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're looking at
that westerly addition.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 18 by 24.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you, alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That has to be
exhumed more into the house and the pool has
to be moved back farther.
MRS. MOORE: Um-hmm, but it still
requires a variance of a pool in a side yard,
that's what I'm saying.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's true.
MRS. MOORE: And my client does not want
a pool in the front yard. That is, for
anybody that has a waterfront piece of
property, a pool in a front yard on Soundview
is the last place you want a pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't say that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't say that.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, (inaudible) putting
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it in a conforming location is what I'm
referring to.
MRS. MOORE: But that would be up front.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, but that's not a, I
mean a pool where the garage is is really an
undesirable place for a pool.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, so you need to
look then at setbacks from the bluff, you
know, in addition to side yard.
MR. FISCHETTI: Let me, there was an
alternate in the beginning and that was to
place the sanitary in the bluff side, but it
required that it be 65 feet from the bluff,
which is the Health Department requirement.
The problem with that is access and as an
engineer access to those sanitary is very,
very difficult. Especially with all the
access we had here when we started to do that
having only 15 feet even on the side yard to
try to service a sanitary system in that area
is something that I didn't want to design and
I pushed for having it in the front. So that
was my decision, but if this Board is forcing
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the issue to the other end, I could then go
back to the Health Department when I go in
front of the Board of Review and have
something that this Board forced us to go in
the other direction, I have some reason.
I have to, when I go to that Board I have
to make a statement at the end that this was
the best position for the sanitary system that
I felt and I couldn't say that, but if this
Board is telling me to push this thing back
and flip it around, that would mean that I
would keep the sanitary at 65 feet from this
bluff line that we're talking about. The
house would be moved forward considerably and
I think we would have both the house and the
swimming pool 20 more feet forward. We'd have
a problem with the garage, but I -- if that's
the case I would talk to them and we can go in
that direction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, why don't we
wait and see what happens when you do that?
MRS. MOORE: We can't. No, the -- it's
like -- the Health Department regulations
require sanitary in the front unless I come to
them and say we presented that to the Zoning
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Board, but the Zoning Board preferred that the
house be set back -- the house and pool be as
far away from the top of the bluff as
possible. So they will defer to this Board's
-- but we have to show them that the Zoning
Board, we presented this, and the Zoning Board
preferred the alternative design.
MR. FISCHETTI: I would still have to
have access to that and I need at least a
clear space of 15 feet to get to service those
-- the side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nobody's -- there
wasn't any -- I wasn't even -- there wasn't
any -- I mean, it's the only place the pool
can go except for the front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I mean there's
no issue there. We need it farther away from
the bluff, that's what the issue is and that's
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's still in the side
yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's still in the
side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Oh. Okay.
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MEMBER SIMON: That's not the problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MRS. MOORE: We can design around this.
It's just moving, essentially, just moving the
pool back and redesigning the house so that it
is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It should be closer
to the house so they can create a greater
buffer between the house and the property
line.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay, I'm sorry, we were
trying to guess -- we were misreading the
Board and I apologize.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, that was my
opinion. I mean I'm not voicing any other
opinions of any other Board member, but --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay, that's fine. We
can do that, that's fine.
of hwy I was saying that
alright a pool no closer
Well, that's kind
if you tell me
than you know 60 feet
or 50 feet, 50 feet cause I'm looking 20 feet
beyond or 20 feet back, we'll design around
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It should be 50 to
54 feet back.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MEMBER SIMON: No, more.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: More than that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The house should be a
minimum of 75 feet and I'm (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Well, that's the problem.
We can't --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's (inaudible)
if they switch (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: That can only be done if we
flip the sanitary.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
MRS. MOORE: That,
understand that.
unfortunately, we
don't have that. Believe me, we all would
start with attempting to conform because
(inaudible) --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have (inaudible) the
setback at this point for the dwelling should
be 100 feet. If we talk about 75 feet, that's
a substantial variance right there, okay, and
the pool should certainly be no closer to the
bluff than the dwelling at 75 feet in a side
yard. Alright? I
in the front yard,
happens to wind up,
very familiar with,
agree that putting a pool
wherever the sanitary
on this road, which I'm
doesn't provide a great
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
deal of privacy and it's, you know, not a
really great, desirable location. I don't
have so much problem with the side yard
location as I do with the setbacks from a
really eroded bluff and you want to maximize
privacy for the owner, the applicant, the
Yatrakis family, and also for the neighbors.
You know, you want to make sure there's
screening and so on and that's easy to do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you need --
excuse me one second,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
where that garage goes
an attached garage.
Leslie.
You have to rethink
or that might wind up
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
maintain that 15 feet on the easterly
as to work on that sanitary system --
You need to
side so
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- if you need to.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: That's if we were to flip
the sanitary. We don't need 15 feet if -- if
the sanitary is in the front, it's -- that's
the whole reason the Health Department wants
them in the front yard because they're always
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
accessible and, you know, there's no issues.
If we flip the whole plan and move the
sanitary to -- and the Health Department
regulations require a sanitary no closer than
65 feet to the top of the bluff, so now again
we're designing around the sanitary. You've
got the sanitary at 65 and then it means that
our house, we have room for the house, but
it's going to be in the -- on the front area
with the pool and so on.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: That was what I thought you
were asking me to go back and see if we could
flip.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm. Well, only
because our mandate --
MRS. MOORE: That's one Board, the other
Board members are saying well no just move the
pool back, so I don't know which way --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Look, our mandate is to
protect, to examine the environmental impact
and the character of the neighborhood.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the character of the
neighborhood, I would point out, is in fact
this exceeds the character of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
neighborhood. The character of the
neighborhood is that all these neighboring
homes are built up almost to the Coastal
Erosion Line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I know,
you have to look at the date
houses were --
MRS. MOORE: But that's irrelevant if the
character of the neighborhood is being
considered.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
don't agree.
MEMBER SIMON: I -- perhaps, obviously,
there are other points besides the character
of the neighborhood --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, environmental factors
are why we're here.
MEMBER SIMON: -- we have to deal with
and you've come before this Board --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: -- so many times and you
know that the Board -- it would be great if
the Board would tell you this is what we want
you to do and we'll allow, but we don't do
that. We don't allow -- first of all --
I don't agree. I really
but they also --
in which those
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
MRS. MOORE: Well, sometimes you do.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Does the Board want
to hear -- do you want to hear from anyone
else in the room?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I need to do
is to explain that this particular lot does
have significant (inaudible) in the center of
it, which we know. Okay, number two, we need
to wrap this hearing up. This will not be the
final hearing on this application.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do apologize,
but we have a -- we've got a situation where
we need to finish this entire day by 4:00,
okay, and that's the story. So anybody that
would like to speak against this application -
MEMBER SIMON: Or for.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What?
MEMBER SIMON: Or in favor.
BOARD ASST.: They can also put it in
writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And/or put it in
writing. The lady was the first one, ma'am,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
you're welcome to use this mike. We do have a
letter in the file.
Go ahead, state your name for the record,
ma'am.
[The following speaker has a heavy French
accent.]
MRS. DUPONT: My name is Beatrice Dupont,
I own the property to the west of the Yatrakis
property. I know I have an accent and
sometimes it's a problem, so I'm going to read
my objection, but with your permission I will
give you each a copy of what I'm going to
read.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Please remember that this objection can
change based upon future changes to the site
plan. I was just going to say we received a
copy of your letter.
MRS. DUPONT: Okay and before I start I
wanted to clarify something about the two
bluffs. (Inaudible) years ago
(inaudible) where that farther
what you say is a second bluff
that was a
line was and
is actually
erosion that has happened in the last two
years and if you go there you will see that
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
(inaudible) that bank is fresh earth and fresh
seedlings. It is not two bluffs that have
been there all over the years and (inaudible)
concern with erosion that I went to Mrs.
(inaudible) who is the owner of the property
1995 because her property was by far the one
eroding the worst because it does not
planting, no seeding and I would say that all
our neighbors have been very conservative
about planting sea grass and making sure we
have some vegetation to prevent erosion which
is as much as we can do without going through
building bulkheads and whatever and I
acknowledge also that my house as Patricia
Moore pointed that it is very far up front.
It was built many, many years ago, over 40
years ago and today I wish it was a few feet
back because we do have a severe erosion
problem there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to say
before you start that, you have given us a
letter from --
MRS. DUPONT: Mrs. (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- (inaudible) to
Mr. King dated January 5, 2009.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MRS. DUPONT: Yes, but I also make one
for -- Oh, did I give you the one -- because I
have one to the Zoning Board, it's the same
letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's fine. I'm
just telling you that we have a letter that
you had given to Mr. King that's part of the
record, that's all I'm saying.
MRS. DUPONT: Yes. It's pretty much the
same thing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. DUPONT: The bluff located on the
lot located at 18805 has been (inaudible) the
past few years (inaudible) and fall from the
bluff onto the beach. Five years ago
staircase of the property adjacent to the east
of the lot (inaudible) here was barely visible
from my lot, now supporting pilings are
visible. (Inaudible) vegetation by the bluff
to accommodate (inaudible) and a pool would
further accentuate the problem. Because of
the fragile nature of the bluff, whatever
building necessary is a load on this parcel
and should be in compliance with Southold
Building Code at least 100 feet from top of
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
the bluff.
The proposed pool is on the side yard and
less than 15 feet from the property line.
This could create a nuisance for 18725
Soundview Avenue, my property, as the proposed
pool would be around 16 feet from current
building, my bedroom windows. I don't think
it's a very pleasant neighborhood situation to
have a swimming pool 16 feet to 18 feet, I've
not really measured, but I have the required
variance of the 15 feet on that side, so
whatever it is that would be a problem.
I was concerned also about the 100 feet
between cesspool and well and I'm concerned
about the (inaudible) for the pool.
I'm not going to read the (inaudible)
because you have my letter, but I do want to
note, to tell you that I'm proud to live in
Southold. I came to Southold because it's a
town that has Zoning and character and I would
like this character to be maintained and
certainly I would like the Yatrakis to have a
nice house, but one that conforms with the
neighborhood and with all the environmental
issues associated.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. ERNEST: My name is Herb Ernest, I'm
a concerned neighbor of Mrs. Dupont's and I
face the property in question, the Yatrakis.
From my attained age of 89 I may have some
wisdom I'd like to impart. My mother came
from Austria, Hungary and my father came from
Alsace and the common language was German and
I could speak German before I could speak
English and one phrase comes out, [speaking
German]. What else do they want? They got
Disneyland here, what do they need a pool for?
I know everybody who's got a swimming pool
uses it four times a year. Why do they need a
pool?
I mean this whole thing is too much.
We're living now in a time where we should
step back and consider what is really wise. I
have gotten up here just to -- I don't know
the Yatrakis and they're lovely people, I'm
sure, they're trying to do a bit too much.
They're biting off more than their neighbors
can chew and they will regret putting in a
pool. They can save a quarter million
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
dollars, the maintenance of it. They'll use
it four times a year. They've got the most
wonderful swimming in the world at the base of
their cliff. I only swim at Mrs. Dupont's
pool. It's wonder -- I mean the beachfront.
It's wonderful and clear. What do you need a
pool for? Stop gilding the lily and get
sensible. That's the only reason I've taken
this stand.
Any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need your name
spelled.
MR. ERNEST: My name is Herbert Ernest.
I own the stables on Mount Buela, the Cosman
property. It's a historic property and I'd
like to keep the neighborhood from becoming
what this house looks like it's going to look
like. It's too much. Let them be sensible
and they'll save 150-grand and they'll solve
all their problems, eliminate the pool. It's
have
Thank you, sir.
ridiculous.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Ma'am?
MRS. LIEBEL: I'll be quick, I know we
time constraints. My name is Linda
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
Couture Liebel. I own the home to the east
with my husband, Jim, over there.
I would like to just bring out first of
all the picture, this diagram here at the very
front where it indicates wells. It says to be
abandoned, well, then the new well location.
We have not moved our well, I don't really
know what that's addressing there. We have a
phone call into the Board of Health, but I
think that they have these flipped around and
I don't know if that changes the scheme of
anything going on.
Secondly, I would just like to say we
have been there for 16 years. We have been
fighting erosion for 16 years. It's
devastating. This is not bad erosion, this is
catastrophic erosion that we're talking about.
I would not dig a vegetable garden where
they're trying to dig a pool and that is the
honest to God truth. My husband has a John
Deere tractor, I will not let him even drive
it within 10 feet of the cliff because it is
so unstable and it's pathetic. These are nice
people, they have not lived here. I don't
really think that they know what they are in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
for with this. This is not the welcome wagon
that I ever envisioned for new neighbors, but
this is -- this just cannot be and I don't
know what the solution is, but I felt I should
oppose especially the pool that close to the
cliff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. LIEBEL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
Anybody else like to speak? Okay.
I'd like to adjourn this hearing until
April 23rd at --
BOARD ASST.: 2:30.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- 2:30.
MEMBER OLIVA: So moved.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6207, 6264, 6154
Henry Traendly and Barbara
Cadwallader
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Location of Property: South Side of
Main Road (NYS Route 25), East Marion,
adjacent to Gardiners Bay. Based on the
Building Inspector's January 30, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval, amended July 25, 2008, the
applicant has submitted applications
requesting:
(A) ZBA %6207 - a Waiver of Merger under
Article II, Sections 100-25 and 100-
26 (renumbered 280-9 and 280-10),
concerning County Tax Map Parcel
Numbers 12 and tl, in District 1000,
Section 31, Block 14 which states:
"Merger. A nonconforming lot shall
merge with an adjacent conforming or
nonconforming lot which has been
held in common ownership with the
first lot at any time after July 1,
1983. An adjacent lot is one which
abuts with the parcel for a common
course of fifty (50) feet or more in
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
(B)
(c)
distance. Nonconforming lots shall
merge until the total lot size
conforms to the current bulk
schedule requirements."
and in the alternative, ZBA #6264
Request for Variances for two
proposed lots in this re-division of
land, requesting an area of less
than the code-required 40,000 square
feet of buildable land under the
Bulk Schedule for CTM Parcel 1000-
31-14-11 and adjacent CTM Parcel
1000-31-14-12; and
ZBA #6154: Request for Variances
under Section 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's January 30,
2008 Notice of Disapproval, amended
July 25, 2008 concerning a proposed
single-family dwelling (after
demolition of an existing building)
with a proposed single side yard at
less than the code-required minimum
of 10 feet, less than the required
combined side yards of 25 feet, and
less than 35 feet from the front
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
yard lot line, at 13000 Main Road,
East Marion; CTM 31-14-11."
MEMBER OLIVA: Where would you like to
start?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you say your
name for the record?
MR. TRAENDLY: I have submitted papers --
MEMBER OLIVA: Your name, sir?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please state your
name for the record.
MR. TRAENDLY: Oh, I'm sorry. Henry H.
Traendly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MR. TRAENDLY: I have submitted papers to
the Board (inaudible) applications, I believe
were succinct, but they're comprehensive and
rather than run through them, unless you'd
like me to and I certainly will and I'm
certainly ready to answer any questions that
the submissions and addendums have caused you
to wish me to discuss with you, I would just
stay at a higher level and move it at that
rate.
I want to make a few comments upfront.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
One is I am still not with benefit of legal
counsel. I'm doing this intentionally and
that's in recognition of the fact we're
dealing with a new law, 280-11 as amended,
it's a new law, I believe it's more sensitive
to mergers enacted such as the one that causes
the operation of
property and I'd
preamble.
The lot, as
law and merger of the subject
like to provide that as my
you know, as created in 1947.
It was recognized by Southold Town law in 1983
as a lot having conformed to the -- having
been created prior to the enacting of Zoning
Law and it was filed with the Suffolk County
Clerk's Office, as you know. We've been
successful in obtaining permits from other
departments in the Town and other Boards in
the Town and I believe that the new law when
it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Move the mike up
just a little bit.
MR. TRAENDLY: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay is
that any better?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. TRAENDLY: I believe that the new law
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January 8, 2009
is more compatible or vice versa the
application is more compatible and the
conditions and the history is more compatible
with perhaps what is the legislative intent of
the new law. If I may make a few comments
about that, the lot's merger was invoked
simply by the common ownership of the two lots
and when invoked the other lot had already
been sold. I don't believe that's of any
great substance, but the sole test being that
is, I believe, significant. Secondly, it has
not been sold to a third-party and the lot was
always treated, habitually treated as distinct
from the domain developed and we'd like to
think attractive property value once when
sold, which is now gone about three years and
change. It has habitually overgrown fences in
between and never severed in any way as a
utility to the other lots. The two lots were
never used in conjunction with each other,
always separate and distinct, and the value of
each did not materially affect the value of
the other. So I believe that would be some of
the tests that have been relevant by the
comments in these types of issues.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
The lots' environmental and physical
characteristics are certainly, we believe,
ones that will not be detrimental to the
neighborhood. I also believe this is probably
the last remaining lot, waterfront lot along
that strip of District 31, which I'm assuming
runs from the causeway through to Trumans Road
and, by the way, there's 37 lots in there. We
might be the only undeveloped one remaining.
I'm talking about bayfront, an interesting
statistic and I think it's relevant to this
discussion. There are 37 lots in the area, 7
of them are conforming with bulk area schedule
in size, some of the 7 are not in fact
conforming because of setback issues with them
even though they're larger lots. I'm talking
about current bulk schedule (inaudible) 40,000
foot requirements under R-40. Of the
nonconforming lots, 14 are similarly small.
16 are larger, but slightly larger or
significantly larger, but nonetheless
nonconforming. So it's an area that has been
developed mostly by having a lot created by
deed filed with the Suffolk County office,
subsequent recognition and then development
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January 8, 2009
based on the, at one point after a number of
years, conformance to the bulk schedule and
other requirements of the local Town Law.
Let's see. Its environmental impact will
be negligible since we've met the Trustees'
test. LWRP has given us an exemption, as you
know, and we've already passed the DEC. The
H~alth Department requirements, we're fully
aware of them and we're working with them and
we believe that that can be accomplished as
well.
Do you have any questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My only concern is
you and that is the fact that you are without
counsel.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay? And I sat
here both in the position as Chairperson and
in the position as Board member and I'm going
to tell you the last statement that this was
made to was a gentleman who owns a gas station
in this town and we told him go get an
attorney, alright? That was probably four or
five years ago and --
BOARD ASST.: Gerry, can I just add that
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his attorney had asked (inaudible) we did not
require counsel and he would not require
counsel.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm only making
that statement, okay, and you can do what you
want at this point. That's
statement, okay?
MR. TRAENDLY: No, no,
believe me. Mr. Chairman,
not a sarcastic
no. I understand,
I appreciate that
advice because I know that we're on basically
untested ground at the very least and there's
a new law. May I ask you a question? Is this
the first hearing of an application on this
new law?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Oh.
MEMBER SIMON:
comment in response
What new law?
Can I make a --
Oh, the waiver of merger.
I would like to make a
to what Gerry said. We've
seen a lot of applications, we've seen a lot
of people with counsel, we've seen a lot where
counsel helped some which didn't help. We've
seen, there are cases and what I think Gerry
is worried about is, there are cases who are
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not knowledgeable enough to do a good job of
presenting their own case. We've been reading
papers from you for quite some time and I am
personally struck by the fact that your
papers, many of them, could very well have
been written by a lawyer.
lawyer myself.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I say this as a
Yes. Thank you.
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It certainly
MR. TRAENDLY:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. TRAENDLY:
MEMBER SIMON:
Well, I'm not.
I know, but --
Thank you.
-- I'm saying
sounds like
substantively you don't seem to be at risk
compared with some people like Gerry has in
mind.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, but the
difference is that --
MR. TRAENDLY: Experience --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. You're a
very nice man and I think you've done a
wonderful job, okay. I'm just explaining the
situation. What the attorney does, or what
the attorneys do or a person, is to lay it out
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
in total, okay, and -- a short version of that
situation -- and I understand that, but I'm
just telling you that these tend to be
confusing issues. Okay? I
ask you and you will answer
this question is asked by a
can sit here and
this question and
Board member and
I'm sorry to (inaudible) this situation and
that is you receive separate tax bills, did
you or did you not?
BOARD ASST.: It was not Mr. Traendly is
nodding yes. I'm trying to get that on the
record, Mr. Traendly.
MR. TRAENDLY: Oh yes.
BOARD ASST.: I can't
tape.
see your nod on the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) in and
you owned this piece of property, did you
receive separate tax bills?
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes, oh yes. Definitely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's
basically the situation I would ask at this
particular time, alright, based upon all the
other evidence you've given us. That's all I
can tell you.
I'll leave it open for any other Board
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January 8, 2009
members to ask this
want.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
something because I
nice man whatever you
I just want to clarify
think your submissions
that you just quickly reiterated are very
articulate and very carefully described. What
really happened here, to make a long story
short, is that the lots apparently merged as
an unintended consequence of estate planning.
You no longer have the economic hardship
burden to prove in dealing with waivers of
merger. So I think you've addressed in your
written responses all of the other criteria
that we have to address in making a
determination. I think we have, in my mind, I
have -- I'd like very much to hear any other
concerns that anybody else in the audience
might want to raise. Clearly this issue has
to be dealt with before we can go on to the
original variance, which was, you know, for a
front yard and two side yard variances on a
house.
MR. TRAENDLY: Right. In the good old
days.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pardon?
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. TRAENDLY:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Well, not so long ago.
MR. TRANEDLY: No,
all.
us.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that
In the good old days.
In the good old days.
not at all, not at
Well, for you not for
Okay, in any case, I just wanted to state
for the record. I don't really have any
questions about it because I suspect it's --
what you've written is very clear, so I think
the only thing that I'd be interested in is if
you have any other comments or I would like to
defer to anybody else in the audience who has
some comments.
MR. TRAENDLY: If I've omitted something,
which is my greatest concern, and I'd like to
have that pointed out perhaps in the form of a
question, which most likely --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We normally don't
do that.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean there's just
-- there's no way to test people.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In my opinion,
that's my opinion.
MR. TRAENDLY: You did pick up one
oversight. Yes, it's -- we've always had
separate tax bills and just paid it. So
that's been since the very beginning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
have any questions of Mr.
MR. TOWNSEND: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, anybody else
Traendty?
Are you questioning
Mr. Traendly or are you questioning the Board?
MR. TOWNSEND: I'm questioning the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, please.
MR. TOWNSEND: My name is Joseph
Townsend. I am the neighbor directly across
the street and when I first bought my
property, at the closing it was discovered
that one -- there were two lots and I was only
interested in buying one lot. At the closing
it was discovered that the other one was only
eight-tenths of an acre and it had to be one
acre, so it merged and I ended up buying both
lots at -- well this was virtually at the
closing, two days. I ended up buying both
lots and to this day I still get two tax
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
bills. I'm not saying -- I'm probably
eligible to subdivide the property, but at one
point in the merger law there was some
requirement for area, is that now gone under
the new law? You have no requirements for
this -- for -- to divide lots? Is it just the
fact that two areas were merged at some point?
Because at one point it had to be of some
minimum, 20,000 feet or something like this
and one of the issues that I have with this is
I believe that the surveys that have been
shown over estimate the area of that lot. I
think they go out further in the water and
then take into consideration land that is
actually underwater in some instances.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: There is not a
minimum area for a waiver of merger.
MR. TOWNSEND: Not anymore?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: There is not a
minimum area. You need, it's a comparison
with properties, the single and separate
properties in the surrounding neighborhood. I
think it's within 1000 feet.
MR. TOWNSEND: Well, in that instance,
before this is approved, I think you should
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
look again and ask for an accurate survey of
that land relative to the other lots that are
there because I think it is -- maybe
significantly less than --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
erosion, Joe, or --
MR. TOWNSEND:
know, it could have
Is that through
It's possible.
been just an
I don't
overoptimistic surveyor. He went out along
two property lines and that's just -- that's
my opinion and I can't -- I wouldn't want to
be held to it, but I think it's definitely
worth looking if there's a site inspection to
check the area because, in my opinion, it's
significantly smaller than the areas around
it. It was originally an access given to --
MEMBER OLIVA:
lot 127
MR. TOWNSEND:
MR. TRAENDLY:
MR. TOWNSEND:
MR. TRAENDLY:
proposed.
MR. TOWNSEND:
Access. Is that lot 11 or
I'm not sure what number.
Lot 11 is the subject lot
Then it would be lot 11.
-- which this Board is
So it's a relative -- it's
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January 8, 2009
a relative --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. TOWNSEND:
mean, we don't want
the full benefit of
point.
Okay.
That's my only comment.
to keep them from having
the law as I may at some
I
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, I was going
to say do we expect to see you here soon?
MR. TOWNSEND: Well, after hearing this I
might. You know, I've got well over a half
acre, it's almost an acre and it was just
under at the time.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You might have a
problem if you bought them after they had
already merged, but that's still for another
day.
MR. TOWNSEND: Okay, well then that's an
issue. Well, doesn't he have that situation
also?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, he owned them
and they merged and then one of the pieces was
sold and --
MR. TOWNSEND: I see.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- he was left with
the remaining piece.
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
MR. TOWNSEND:
MR. TRAENDLY:
believe it's in the
I've given you, but
purchase, both lots
I see.
If I may restate this, I
supplementary material
both, at the time of
were single and separate
and maintained as such because the ownership
was a different percentage. At one time I was
the sole owner of the larger lot when it was
sold in 19 -- rather 2005 and the other lot
was owned by the two of us and it was that way
until the unintended result of estate planning
and fear on my part that my diagnosis was not
going to let me be around even until now. So
the Lord's been great to me, I'm not looking
for sympathy, just, you know, one of these
fright things I better do something about
this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. TRAENDLY: So having said that, the
Chairman's comment in the beginning is one
that concerns me and if I did miss things then
an attorney would pick up on (inaudible) and I
do understand that. I see what the attorneys
do. I understand, not the concept though, I
read a lot of applications to the Huntington
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January 8, 2009
Town Board which publishes them and you can
get them just about online and often they use
experts to come in and testify on behalf of
the application and its merits and, you know,
that crossed my mind that maybe I ought to be
a smart guy and do that, even if I want to
play lawyer, I'm not playing it. It's just a
cost containment issue for me.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If I can just
respond, clearly you've done a lot of work on
this application. We've all seen you in Town
Hall doing your research and you've spoken to
many people. I think you have a very good
understanding of what the new law requires,
what the old law required. You've put
together a good application. You've made a
cogent argument for yourself. It's going to
come down -- I don't mean to speak for the
Board on this application -- to a comparison
of this lot with the surrounding lots and
whether they're prepared to grant a waiver on
that issue. If they think they need more
information on that, they should ask you. If
you think you can provide better information
on that, you can do that, but, you know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
that's sort of where it lies.
MR. TRAENDLY: I can definitely provide
information through another source. For
instance, an expert who will go out and
attest, perhaps a real-estate-type expert, who
will attest to the size of the other lots, but
to take the Suffolk County, the current
Suffolk County tax map and what I gave you was
from November 8, 2008 -- November 6, 2008 --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Normally, a
comparison of the
enough.
MR. TRAENDLY:
lots, the tax map is good
Then I (inaudible) using
my delineation of what the neighborhood is
based on the most significant part --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, but no, the
law -- I don't mean to interrupt you -- but
the law, I don't have it in front of me, but
it says what should be considered. I think
it's properties within
like that.
MR. TRAENDLY:
MEMBER OLIVA:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. TRAENDLY:
1000 feet or something
No, it doesn't say that.
No, it doesn't.
It just --
It says, it uses the term
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
neighborhood.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay well then --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, it used to say
that.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- that's
subjective.
MR. TRAENDLY: The original version said
1000 feet and then this new law enacted law
says -- uses the term --
MEMBER OLIVA: The neighborhood.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- neighborhood, which of
course is not --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- defined. If you look
in the definitions.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You won't find it,
no.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay, wonderful so I took
the liberty of okay I'll define what the area
is. So I looked at the tax map and said well
if I looked at this I'd look along the
waterline and, you know, back to Trumans Path
and said okay --
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the causeway.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- and (inaudible). It
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
wasn't self-serving, I just did that and said
this is logical to me at least.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: So I certainly would be
willing to embellish on that in any way the
Board would want.
MEMBER OLIVA: Mr. Traendly, is your lot
Number 12 or not --
MR. TRAENDLY: Lot 11.
MEMBER SIMON: 11.
MEMBER OLIVA: Lot 11 and who is lot 127
MR. TRAENDLY: That's owned by a
gentleman named, I can't pronounce it,
Nemenotkus (sic).
MEMBER OLIVA: Is that to the east of
you?
MR. TRAENDLY: That's to the east of me,
yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's the old Malard Inn
(sic) property?
MR. TRAENDLY: That's -- yeah, you're
going way back.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: By the way, both were lots
back to the 20s, before they were filed any
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
place,
able to trace back to the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. TRAENDLY: A lot
but there's deeds going back that I was
20s.
Sure.
of them aren't
relevant to this issue, but they were separate
and distinct parcels for a long, long time.
MEMBER OLIVA: So your purpose in this is
to get a waiver of merger so that your lot
number --
MR. TRAENDLY: 11.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: 11.
MEMBER OLIVA: -- is a legal lot?
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes. As a matter of fact,
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- want to get back to
where we were on July --
MEMBER OLIVA: Thanks.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- 23, 2008 --
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- before the absolutely
last minute, the 11th hour, determination
merger. I almost had a coronary.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. TRAENDLY: I mean we were doing okay
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
with it. You guys were telling me how it is
with the side lines.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. TRAENDLY: And I'm now here hat in
hand saying that was fine, yes, you can build
on the size that you were talking about and
I'm okay with that and I understand the give
and take and the minimum relief concept and
the --
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: -- alternative relief. So
I wish I were back there. That's really all
I'm trying to get to.
MEMBER OLIVA: I wish we were, too.
MR. TRAENDLY: Yeah. Thank you very much
for saying that. That's all I'm trying to do,
get back to what I thought our benchmark was.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Only a statement on the
merger law cause, I mean, I think where the
law is written you've got the lot. I think
you've proven that, but whether the criteria I
know we considered during that, at least in my
letter to the Code Committee, was that the lot
be able to have a house built on it without
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
the need for a variance.
could not have a house on
for a variance. Now this
This lot clearly
it without the need
is where I go to the
Chairman's statement about needing a lawyer.
I think you got the merger, I think that that
-- because that -- my statement just before
doesn't apply here. Okay? There is no
provision that says that you must have -- you
can only build a 10-foot wide house here. I
don't believe that any house by New York State
Code can be, you know, 10 feet wide. I
believe there's a minimum, whether it's 15 or
20, I don't know what it is. You couldn't put
a trailer in there because trailers aren't
allowed unless they preexist. So I think that
that's where you may need to have more help
with the variances, the setback variances.
MR. TRAENDLY: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: A lawyer may help you
with respect to that, I think.
MEMBER SIMON: May I make a conunent on
that?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't disagree
substantively, it's a problem, but I do recall
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
we have had a situation we had in Greenport
itself where it was very clear to me that
there was a lot, which was very small and it
was a -- it was presented to us, I don't know
whether it was a lawyer, as a legal lot,
therefore, we had to do what was necessary,
which meant it was impossible to get a house
which was 850 square feet that could satisfy
the setbacks without granting a variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
house on it, that lot.
Greenport.
MEMBER SIMON: Was
But it had an existing
Leonard Street,
it existing?
MEMBER DtNIZIO:
that area.
MEMBER SIMON:
okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Yeah. Yeah, I live in
Okay, okay. You live in -
It was a little
different, he wanted to put a pool and it had
an existing deck. It had all these things and
he filled that lot, but it was an existing.
It was never a subject of the merger law.
MEMBER SIMON: You're right it was never
a subject of the merger law, but I mean is it
true that the merger law requires that one
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
constraint on the
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
size of the lot that --
No.
-- that it not be
buildable without a variance?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No. No, Jim just
explained that. Let's not get too far afield
here. Today let's deal with the merger issue,
the waiver of merger application. If you
decide to grant it, then we'll have another
day where we talk about what you can have on
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just say
this before Joe speaks, okay, and that is --
BOARD ASST.: What if it's not granted
though? Then, procedurally, the next step is?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, if it's not
granted then you have the alternative
application for the area variance.
BOARD ASST.: This is before us today.
MR. TRAENDLY: Which I would be happy to
BOARD ASST.:
that?
MR. TRAENDLY:
withdraw, you know
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Which I would be happy to
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BOARD ASST.:
MR. TRAENDLY:
table.
Well no.
I don't mean withdraw,
but
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You want to hold
that in abeyance pending the first decision?
MR. TRAENDLY: Yeah, right.
BOARD ASST.: Table it to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm telling you
this is a cardinal lot, okay, that this Board
would require possibly, I'm not speaking for
the Board I'm speaking for myself, Health
Department approval if we were to deal with
the merger issue. The Health Department is
going to play a huge role in this lot before
you build anything and it's going to be a real
costly situation, too, in reference to what
people have required.
MR. TRAENDLY: I realize that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is going to be
one of those cement situations an entire
square with the sanitary system in the middle
of it and I have to tell you I had a friend
who did one of those recently, it cost him
$85,000.00 and I'm just mentioning that, okay?
MR. TRAENDLY: But I can't buy a lot for
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ZBA Town of Southold
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January 8, 2009
$85,000.00. I mean, honestly and truly, it's
about economics. So if I'm getting a lot for
$85,000.00 then I'm doing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
now you have to park over
because of where you have
real well.
The difference was
the top of it, okay,
to park and so on
and so forth, but that's neither here nor
there. I'm not designing that for you, I
don't have the ability to do that.
Pardon me, sir.
MR. TOWNSEND: Just to get back, I think
the first time Mr. Traendly said the lots had
been in existence since the 20s, that may be
correct, but I think the first time it shows
up on the Assessor's is '37 or '40, in that
area. It was my understanding from talking to
the original owner of the lot that they got it
as a gift from the owner of the Mallard Inn,
now this is going back in memory, you know,
and that the boathouse or the garage that's on
it now was built shortly after they acquired
the lot.
Now is it, in fact, are you able to have
a single lot where you can't put a legal house
on, but you can put a garage or a boathouse
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on? I mean, is that a good enough purpose for
a lot cause then you wouldn't have those
constraints. That's where it always was, it
was always a --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, you wouldn't
be able to do it from scratch today --
MR. TOWNSEND: No, no. I know he has a
permit from the Trustees to tear that down,
I'm just wondering if that's something that
should be put on hold also until he knows what
he can use the lot for.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think practical
advice would be not to tear it down until you
have approvals to replace it, but that's his -
MR. TRAENDLY: If I may respond, I have
copies of the deeds showing where the lot came
from and it came from -- it was owned by a
Presbyterian Council. I think it was a not-
for-profit that another family bought it from
the year before and it was sold by this other
family, by the way the name was Muller and
Muller bought it from the Council people and
then Muller sold it to --
MR. TOWNSEND: (Inaudible).
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MR. TRAENDLY: -- the (inaudible), so
this was not given to anybody who owned the
other lot. I can tell -- I can assure you of
that and the Board has the paperwork to assure
that that is accurate. I've given you a copy
of those deeds. So I'm comfortable with that
analysis that was something I was able to do
myself.
MR. TOWNSEND: So the lot already existed
before it was given to Mr. -- sold (inaudible)
said it was given, but --
MR. TRAENDLY: Yeah, the first it was
filed with Suffolk County it was, that they
show, was -- No, the first deed was January 4,
1947.
MR. TOWNSEND: 47.
BOARD ASST.: What year was that, '47?
MEMBER OLIVA: '47.
MR. TRAENDLY: '47, yeah. 61 years ago.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so at this
particular point we are only dealing with the
merger issue today.
MR. TRAENDLY: Yes, with my full
recognition that it doesn't mean I'm getting
anything else.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Correct.
MR. TRAENDLY: The point is I'm powerless
to go beyond that anyway without a variance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. TRAENDLY: I'm fully cognizant of
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We thank
you, Mr. Traendly. I would like to close this
hearing and I will make a motion closing the
hearing --
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- pending that
testimony.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - January 8, 2009
HEARING #6268 - Romanelli Realty Inc.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Concerning property located at 36660
Route 25 (Main Road) and 200 Skunk Lane,
Cutchogue; CTM 97-3-3.1 and 97-3-6.1 (formerly
97-3-3 and 97-3-6). This request is based on
the Building Inspector's December 17, 2007
Notice of Disapproval concerning an area
variance application for a change of lot line
and the applicant's request for approval of an
LB Business Zone parcel containing 63,338.05
square feet. The Notice of Disapproval states
that the minimum lot size requirement in the
LB Zone District is 80,000 square feet, and
the applicant requests approval of a reduced
lot size containing 63,338.05 square feet for
County Tax Map Parcel 1000-97-3-3.1."
MS. MESIANO: Seeing that I have three
minutes with which to pull this off, I'll try
to make it brief. The condition -- this is
Catherine Mesiano on behalf of Romanelli
Realty addressing the waiver of -- excuse me,
lot line change at the subject property.
The conditions that exist are as-is
conditions. Prior to Mr. Romanelli's
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acquisition of the property in 2004, the prior
owner of the properties that are subject to
this application affected a lot line change
regularizing straightening a lot line and
attaching the 2500 square foot, approximately,
area to his residential property on Skunk
Lane. A building permit was issued by the
Building Department, the former owner
constructed a workshop on that portion of the
property, which is now annexed to his
residential property. A Certificate of
Occupancy was granted for that constructed
building and Mr. Romanelli acquired the
business zoned property then after all of that
took place and the date of his acquisition, I
believe, took place on September of 2004.
We have applications before this Board
and the Planning Board for site plan approval,
special exceptions for the development of the
site. We're caught between a rock and a hard
spot because of this irregularity and we have
-- technically we needed to come to this Board
to legalize a condition that was created by
the actions of the Building Department before
we were in ownership of this property. So I
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have presented the Board with everything it
requested. I don't know if you have any
questions, but I will --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I'd just like to
state that basically you're going to be adding
to the business piece of property a piece of
land, right?
MRS. MESIANO: No, the land was taken
from the business property and attached to the
residential property.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
subtract from that?
MRS. MESIANO:
Okay, so you're going to
It has been done already.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. That's -- this is
what we're legalizing here?
MRS. MESIANO: Yes. Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And the Planning Board
approves of this?
MRS. MESIANO: The Planning Board's
letter to your Board urged your Board to
approve this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MESIANO: Because they consider it
minimal in nature, there's no repercussions as
far as the 2500 square feet of land impacting
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the potential use of the residentially zoned
parcel. They viewed it as a minimal action
and recormmended its approval.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and there's
already a building on there that was already
built the prior owner.
MRS. MESIANO: That's correct, by a prior
owner. By the time Mr. Romanelli acquired the
property all of this had been done.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. It would be
extremely hard to
there.
MRS. MESIANO:
take that building of off
I think it would be. Mr.
Midgley would put up a bit of a fuss, I might
say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's smiling back
there.
MRS. MESIANO: Then that means he agrees
with me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: And I would ask this Board
if there is any way for -- if there are no
questions and no issues, if we might get a
decision at this point because our SEQRA
process is held up because of this issue. We
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are stuck at every juncture because we can't
complete the SEQRA process until this process
is done. So I am appealing to the Board that
the quickest decision you could make would be
greatly appreciated because we've been trying
for close to a year now to pull all of this
together. We're running in circles and this
is the one thing that's keeping us from
getting our SEQRA determination that allows
everything else to move forward.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would offer to write
it tonight and we could vote on it tomorrow,
but that's certainly up to, you know, the
Board. I think most -- usually everybody
likes to see it in writing before we
(inaudible).
MRS. MESIANO: I understand. I think
maybe what I'm saying is please don't take 62
days.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MRS. MESIANO: I'll give you a week or
two, but that's about it.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Let's also be
clear, just to be doubly clear, what we're
dealing with here today. We're not dealing
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with what's going to be on the property.
MRS. MESIANO: That's correct. We're
only --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: We're not dealing
with setbacks and storefronts and numbers of
buildings and uses. What we're dealing with
is a piece of property that exists in it's
current state the line was never drawn on a
site plan and approved by the Planning Board
where it is and that's what this Board would
need to bless in order for the proposed
project to continue.
MRS. MESIANO: That is correct. We're
looking for legalization, legal recognition of
the lot that presently exists due to
conditions that we did not create.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A total of 2584.01;
is that correct?
MRS. MESIANO: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, that's what was
added, the 2500 --
MRS. MESIANO: The area to be transferred
is 2584.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the decimal 01.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes, that is the area that
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was transferred from the LB property to the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MESIANO: To Mr.
residential property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
To Mr. Midgley.
Midgley's
Right.
MRS. MESIANO: Resulting in the business
property now being 63,338 square feet and the
residential lot now being 22,701 square feet.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So did that
transfer, which did happen, that made the
adjacent residential lot more conforming?
MRS. MESIANO: More conforming, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What zone is that
in?
MRS. MESIANO: And if I might add -- That
is in an R -- it's on my map.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MESIANO: R-40.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
It's R-40.
Alright, so that we
had a preexisting nonconforming business lot,
you added 2500 square feet or so to a
preexisting nonconforming --
MRS. MESIANO: Residential lot, that is
correct.
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ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay.
MRS. MESIANO: And if I might add to --
there is a provision in the Town Code when we
get into the Planning Board aspect that does
give the Planning Board the ability to
recognize a 60,000 square foot LB Zoned
property upon our submission of a single and
separate search, which I've had done, but have
not yet submitted to them. So there is the
possibility for the Planning Board to
determine if this lot is acceptable in its
current form, at its current size.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
those questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
give me those numbers
I don't have any of
Cathy, if you could just
again? Okay, the --
what you're going to end up with.
MRS. MESIANO: Yes. The area that is
transferred is 25 -- I'll start again. The
area to be transferred, that is transferred,
is 2584.01 square feet. The area of the
business zoned property, the Main Road
property, after the transfer was completed is
63,338 square feet. The area of the Midgley
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residential property after annexing the 2584
square feet is now 22,701 square feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
MRS. MESIANO: I would just say that my
application, you know, speaks for itself. I
answered all the required questions and
impacts, etc., but it's ticking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody want to
speak in favor or against this application?
Seeing no hands -- yes, sir?
[INAUDIBLE not at microphone]
You want to speak against it? I said in
favor or against it.
MR. GENOVESE: Or against it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Would you
state your name for the record, please?
MR. GENOVESE: My name is (inaudible)
Genovese.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? How
do you spell your last name?
MR. GENOVESE: G-E-N-O-V-E-S-E.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. GENOVESE: The problem that I have
with this development is how could this be put
into this --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to that. This is a lot line change.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. GENOVESE:
we received.
It's not even close
That's all.
That's not the letter
that
MRS. MESIANO: Mr. Genovese has received
two letters from me. The first addressed the
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BOARD ASST.: -- March, so that may be
another letter that you got (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's the
letter that you should have received in
reference to this particular site. We can
show it to you on the map. What this is is
basically Mr. Midgley's workshop that was
transferred before the Romanellis took title
to the property. That's all we're doing
today, nothing else.
I'm sure we're going to be seeing you and
we're going to be dealing with this
application as it progresses --
MR. GENOVESE: Then we received the wrong
letter.
BOARD ASST.: Well there are more
hearings coming up in --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: March.
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special exception and the variance
application, the second that he received most
recently was with respect to this application
dealing only with the lot
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
hearings coming up on the
of the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you informed.
BOARD ASST.: You can come back.
with our office if you want the date
line change.
Okay.
So there will be
use and development
And we will keep
Check
and the
time and we'll confirm that with you in the
office (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think the confusion
may arise from the fact that we did already
have testimony about the proposed uses and in
that particular process it became apparent
that the boundary of the lot needs to be --
MR. GENOVESE: I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's fine.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's not your
You know, that's what
happened. We realized that they have to
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fault.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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define the boundaries of the lot legally,
which is what we're doing today, and then
we'll get back to the other thing.
BOARD ASST.: We'll do more and you can
come back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think there's
going to be a problem on voting on this, you
know, it's a week when we have our special
(inaudible).
MRS. MESIANO: I will certainly hope not.
If any question arises, please --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm certainly ready to
vote on it. I don't see -- there's no more
(inaudible).
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Did you ask for
anybody else?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll make a motion
closing the hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
January 21, 2009
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