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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BO~LRD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BO~LRD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
March 27, 2008
9:45 a.m.
Board Menfoers Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Meraber
(JA/~ES DINIZlO, JR. - Member - ABSENT)
RUTH D. OLIVA - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
KIERAN CORCORA/q - Assistant Town Attorney
(9:45-end)
dAN - 7 2009
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Christopher and Elizabeth Graseck #6135
JSC Resources #6137
Paul and Cheryl Ragusa #6138
Frank and Antoinette Notaro #6136
Richard and Pamela Frerking #6141
Robert F. and Patricia Friemann #6139
Karen Mazzaferro #6139
Thomas and Paulette Giese #6143
Joanne and John Gouveia #6144
David Fisher #6126
Lia Polites and Kevin Ferro #6129
Donald and Janis Rose #6130
Spyro Avdoulos #6145
Page:
3-29
29-43
43-105
105-108
108-124
124-145
145-152
152-153
153-160
160-163
163-193
193-208
218-238
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Call meeting to
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
HEARING #6135 - Christopher and
Elizabeth Graseck
MEMBER OLIVA:
~Request for Variances under Sections
280-116 and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's February 5, 2008 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a new single-family
dwelling (after demolition of the existing
dwelling) for the reasons that the new
construction will be: (a) less than 25 feet on
a single side yard, and (b) less than 25 feet
for total side yard setbacks, and (c) less
than the code-required 100 feet from the bank
or bluff landward of the shore or beach of
Long Island Sound. Location: 1910 Leeton
Drive, Southold; CTM 58-2-12."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
that's being heard on this? Hi, can you come
up and use the mike? State you name for the
record, please.
MRS. GRASECK: Betsy Graseck and I'm the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
homeowner with my husband, Christopher
Graseck, and we are looking to expand the
house for two reasons. First, there is some
structural weakness in the house and, second,
we have a growing family, two small children,
age 1 and 4 who now share a room, but at some
point they're not going to be happy with that.
So we would like just to let you know who we
are, what we're doing, and why we wanted to
expand it here as opposed to selling and
moving somewhere else.
Leeton Drive is a very special place for
us. Three reasons, first, my husband grew up
on Leeton Drive. During the summer both
grandparents have houses on Leeton Drive and
he is very excited that our children are going
to be fourth generation users of the beach.
Second is my best friend lives across the
street where I'd been (inaudible) with her for
the past thirty years until I was able to find
my own place. Third, my husband and I did
meet on the beach about eight years ago
(inaudible) you know where that is. So we're
obviously very tied to that area and my
mother-in-law lives here right down the block
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
from us and our daughter is already running
back and forth since age 3-1/2 to visit
(Inaudible) everyday. His dad lives over on
Bayview and his uncle lives in Cutchogue,
retired Police Officer of Southold.
Our proposal does enable us to have, you
know, enough bedrooms for myself and my
husband, obviously, and our daughter and our
son and then, you know, my mom who comes from
Garden City from time to time. I heard there
was some concerns about the use of our attic,
so I asked the architect to change the access
to the attic to a pull-down staircase, which
is now reflected in the plan.
We also are being neighborly in trying to
address our neighbors' concerns here and we
initially asked for the house to go back, I
don't know, something like 26 feet or so. We
couldn't go back as far as we had initially
requested due to the fact that we needed to
have enough room for the cesspools so we had
to move it back up a bit and we moved it up as
little as possible so that we could minimize
the disruption to their view down towards
Horton's Point. In addition, we're pulling
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
back the second floor deck three feet to make
sure that the view that they have towards
Horton's Point is as minimally disrupted as
possible while enabling us to have a chair
outside.
Additionally, renovations will require to
remove some large trees which are in between,
you know, on our property and should impr~v~
the water views for the neighbors across the
street. Obviously, the environmental impact
it'll have on an ongoing basis improved
because it'll now be gutters that'll reduce
erosion. Moving back the house from the beach
helps dune creation. The new septic system
will be a significant improvement over the
outdated cesspool and as well the dormers are
enabling airflow into the house which is used
for the air conditioning.
We're excited about the opportunity to be
able to improve the property and allow a
fourth generation of Grasecks and (inaudible)
to enjoy the beach, which has been a focal
point of our family and become a part of the
community going forward.
MEMBER OLIVA: I just wanted to say we
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
were all down there, but I was very happy to
see that you've moved the house back from the
bulkhead, which looks to me to be in very good
shape, by the way.
MS. GRASECK: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: And you've kept all the
natural plantings around there. If you keep
that, I don't have any problem with what
you're doing. I think it's a good job.
MS. GRASECK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just
reflect on the 24 percent, which is 4 percent
over on the lot coverage?
MS. GRASECK: Well, I think that happened
because the initial plans that we submitted
were shown without the front deck that's right
next to the water,
there today.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MS. GRASECK:
pull those down.
so --
right, which is what exists
Yeah.
But our expectation is to
We're going to remove that,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you're
replacing them with a deck?
MS. GRASECK: No, we were asked to draw
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those on, so we have a --
MEMBER OLIVA: Small deck.
MS. GRASEcK: We have a front deck that's
attached to the house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MS. GRASECK: And it's my understanding
that that one structure is 20 percent. Is
that right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MS. GRASECK: And then the -- so it's 24
percent?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MS. GRASECK: The architect is here. He
can discuss it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. GRASECK: But the piece, the deck
that's on the waterside I mean, that's going
to get removed --
MEMBER OLIVA: Good.
MS. GRASECK: -- and that whole duck-walk
towards that gets removed. So that'll be
allowed to become natural vegetation.
MEMBER OLIVA:
beach grass there.
MS. GRASECK:
You could plant that nice
Yes, absolutely. My
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husband is a biology teacher.
MEM~3ER OLIVA: Oh, good.
MS. GRASECK: A~nd he is very keen -- I
mean we put a bunch of, you know,
in there.
ME~ER OLIVA: Oh good.
MS. GRASECK: Yeah over the last --
they're very small still.
CHAIRMA3~ GOEHRINGER: Before you leave
Mrs. Graseck, we need to go down the other
side to see if our wonderful Board members
also from the other side need to ask you any
questions.
MS. GRASECK: Sure.
MEMBER WEISM3~N: Good morning.
MS. GRASECK: Hi.
MEMBER WEISF~N: You are actually moving
the house closer to the road. I'd like to ask
you exactly how many feet closer to the road
you'll be in terms of --
MS. GRASECK: Can I ask the architect the
answer to the technical questions?
beach palms
MEMBER WEISM3LN: Sure.
C}{AIRMJLN GOEHRINGER: Mr.
just mention your name please
Notaro, would
for the record?
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MR. NOTARo: Yes, Frank Notaro. I'm the
architect for the Grasecks on this project.
The drawing prepared by John (Inaudible),
the surveyor, shows 58.5 feet from the
proposed hip of the house to the road, to our
lot line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. NOTARO: Previous to that I don't
have an exact measurement on there, but I do
have another drawing that we had prepared
showing our lot and the adjacent lot next
door. I don't have an exact measurement, but
I can give you this drawing and I can Provide
you that information.
MEMBER OLIVA: We have.
MR. NOTARO: The basic house itself from
the tip of the front of the old house is
moving back approximately 19 feet to the
house. The deck takes up and then it goes
back out 9 feet to the proposed deck. So, you
know, we're moving the house substantially
further back. The Grasecks had numerous
conversations with the next door neighbor and
what the affects of the proposed dwelling
might be to their view. So we tried to adjust
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the house, actually, Betsy had instructed us
to move the house even further towards the
road and then we got negative feedback from
the Health Department that there was not
enough room for --
P/EMBER OLIVA: For your septics.
MR. NOTARo: -- the septic system and
also to have on-site parking, too.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMJ~N: Basically the reason I
was asking is cause I can't see documentation
of what's existing in terms of the front yard
setback. I'd like to have the record reflect
the number of feet that you're increasing the
distance from the bluff and the number of feet
that you're actually changing the setback from
the existing house to the street frontage.
MR. NOT~LRO: Yes. If you keep the
existing structure on the property, which is a
shed storage building, the new house is
approximately about 6 feet further towards the
road from that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
for.
That's all I'm looking
MR. NOTA~O: If I may, I have another
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drawing that we prepared that I can --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMA/q GOEHRINGER: We'll take it.
MR. NOTARo: It shows basically the
neighbor's property cause this is how we tried
to design the house to accommodate the
neighbor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll pass that
right down.
MR. NOTARO: This is existing and the
proposed dwelling. It's an overlay and it's
about 6 feet beyond the shed.
MEMBER WEISM3%N: Beyond the shed.
BOARD ASST.: Just for the record, they
are labeled with the date of November 14, '07
and there are two sheets both labeled "A
site".
MR. NOTARO: If I can give you one other
drawing, this is the existing house down the
street and this is kind of (inaudible). This
puts in perspective our proposed house
relative to the other one in terms of heights.
This one meets the criteria.
BOARD ASST.: What's the height of this
house?
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MR. NOTARo: Well the way they took it I
believe from this point (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, right,
right.
MR. NOTARo: (Inaudible). That's neither
here nor there, this is not an official
document, but just to give kind of an idea on
what has been built and what we're proposing.
M-EMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, this is not a --
these are not site plans we have in our files.
MR. NOTA~RO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on. Hold on.
We're just going to reflect that the second
submission, okay, is a reflection of a house
several hundred feet to the east as it is
compared to the proposed house, okay. We're
going to mark that. Do you want to put a
submission number on that?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, I just want to
mention that it's labeled as drawing A3, dated
January 7, '07. It says renovation and
addition to the Graseck residence, but I don't
know that it is. I think that this is the
house that's further down the road.
MR. NOTARO: Yes, right.
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CHAIRMJU~ GOEHRINGER: Well, this is
the Graseck house here.
MR. NOTARO: It's not a stamped drawing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, thank you.
MR. NOT~RO: My client asked for that as
a reference so we drew that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's just a
comparative site plan showing the citing of
the existing dwelling to the west. The
proposed lot coverage is 24 percent. On the
survey I'm looking to see -- I don't see where
the existing because this is a survey of the
proposed citing, what is the existing lot
coverage of the structure (inaudible)?
MR. NOTARO: I don't know if I
(inaudible). I can provide you the lot
coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to know the
(inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: What's throwing us over the
top is the existing decks out the back,
primarily. In subsequent conversations with
one of the Graseck neighbors they have also
recently pulled back the upper deck about
three feet to increase the view of the
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neighbor, for what it's worth, it doesn't
change the proposed footprint at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the existing decks
that are on the waterfront side, seaward
decks, those are being removed?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And a deck
be built back there,
MEMBER OLIVA:
you have.
is going to
but it's substantially -_
It's almost like the one
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like on the
site plan it says
on the survey.
MR. NOT~RO:
first and second floor decks
Oh, that's the proposed.
That's the new proposed house and decks.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what I'm saying,
there will be a deck first and second story
deck on the new house.
MR. NOTD2qO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: On the waterside.
next
BOARD ASST.:
MS. GRASECK:
to the water.
MEMBER WEISMlkN:
On the waterside.
On the waterside, but not
You're not going all the
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way up to the bulkhead.
MS. GRASECK: Right. So there is a
structure right now (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: Is it going across the
width of the house, the new deck?
MR. NOTARo: It will.
MEMBER OLIVA: It will and how wide?
~fR. NOTARO: How wide?
be from the house?
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm.
MR. NOTARo: Right now it's proposed at 9
feet. (Inaudible) supposed to have this other
set of drawings of the (inaudible) those are
the proposed (inaudible) of the house and this
is the, I'll open this and show you, the
proposed deck coming out 9 feet across the
bottom and on the bottom and on the top Mrs.
Graseck said that she wanted to bring the deck
back three feet. So it'll short little flat
skirt on that, so that that deck will only be
6 feet.
MEMBER WEISF~AN: 6 feet.
The new deck will
We're having difficulty
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5 feet --
BOARD ASST.:
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6 feet overall. It's about
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
getting all this on the record. Perhaps you
could use the mike, please, we don't have a
court reporter here. Thank you, appreciate
that.
MR. NOTARo: I was just clarifying the
drawings a little bit. The proposed deck is
proposed to come out 9 feet overall, which
gives us about 8 foot usable deck area off the
face of the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. According to
this site plan that you've just submitted of
the before and after with the existing and
proposed --
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMA_N: -- I see which portions
of the existing deck are being removed and
where the new proposed deck attached to the
house is. It would appear that there is, on
this drawing, I just want to have you clarify
it, there is evidence of the wooden platform
still remaining up near the bulkhead.
MR. NOT/fRO: Well, I left it on the
drawing cause it's an existing condition right
nOW.
MEMBER OLIVA: You really need it.
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way,
~fR. NOTA_Ro: Excuse me?
MEMBER OLIVA: I would assume that,
you really need that.
MR. NOTARo: No --
MEMBER WEISMA3N: No, this piece.
in a
Are you
ME/~BER OLIVA: No? I mean just at the
top of the stairs.
MR. NOTARo: Well, I -- the client is not
down for the record as saying that she's
removing it. My suggestion to everybody would
be, yes, this would have a path up from the
stairs back to the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: So again you let all the
vegetation regrow in that area.
MEMBER WEISM3LN: Exactly. Well, I guess
what I'm asking is to what extent is this a
schematic and to what extent is this a final
site plan? We really need to -- in o~her
words, what I'd really like to make sure we
have --
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISF~LN:
proposed plan.
-- clearly is the final
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MR. NOTARo: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This just came to us and
I had some questions about lot Coverage and
you know setbacks. The setbacks are answered
now, but I'd like to see the information. If
you remove this piece, although it's at grade,
I mean, lot Coverage may be considered
differently.
MR. NOTARO: It's actually above grade so
it's included.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is why it's
included.
MR. NOTARO: It's a real structure, it's
not like it's laid on grade.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so it's on
piers.
MR. NOTARO: Yes. So we were asked to
include that on the (inaudible) site plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. If that's going
to be removed, it would certainly change your
lot coverage.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And that would certainly
be moving it forward with something the Board
would find appealing.
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MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. NOTARo: Yes.
MEMBER WEISM3kN: Obviously, the smaller
variance we can grant is what we're going to
try and accomplish.
MR. NOTARo: Absolutely. I have had
about 15 (inaudible) back and forth with my
clients. This is kind of an ongoing response
to -- I have to actually state a little
ignorance about that deck. I was not aware
that it was actually coming off totally.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: We will discuss that to get
you a plan of something that will be
environmentally sensitive.
MEMBER OLIVA: Give us the dimensions and
the lot coverage.
MR. NOTARO: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: I have to write it.
MR. NOTARO: At this point, we were
improving the deck. Again with trying to be
receptive to the neighbors, the environment to
move the house back from the (inaudible) this
is kind of a new idea.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, these are, you
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know, old lots. I live on Soundview, so we're
neighbors. I walk by your existing house
frequently, daily. This is typical of the
lots, they were all small kind of summer
cottages and over time I'm glad to see what
you're proposing is not another enormous kind
of house like many houses along this that have
become quite large. So I don't really have a
problem with the variances on the side yard
because typically the side yards are very
small and if you're going to -- and it's very
dune-like and if you're going to leave that
nature topography, in particular, I think that
that works fairly well. I don't see it as a
big problem. Certainly there's enough room
for emergency equipment to get through and so
on, but I would like to clarify what your
final proposed lot coverage is and exactly
what the front yard setback is, the rear is
established on the survey. It could even be a
letter, you know, or final drawing; whatever
the Board decides.
MR. NOTARO: I'll get those to you.
MEMBER WEISMJLN: It's important for us to
deliberate on the final specifics that you
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intend to --
BOARD ASST.: Now, is this drawing the
same as the other site plans because
(inaudible)?
MEMBER WEISMltN: The one that you've
submitted now? I think --
MR. NOTARo: We're going to have a --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not really.
BOARD ASST.: The one that you are going
to be submitting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, because we need to
see if that deck is going to be removed. A
site plan that shows exactly what's Droposed
and on the survey a new proposed lot coverage.
MR. NOTARO: Yes and a dimension from the
front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes and where the drywells
are going.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only problem I
have, Mr. Notaro, is that on the other two
submissions you made today we really need
copies for everybody. Do you -- so we need
copies of them so we could give them to
everybody.
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Is there anything you would like to
reflect on regarding the neighbors, the
Steele's, and their letter to the Board?
MR. NOTA_RO: No, well that's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. NOTARo: -- an interesting question.
We could have gone higher with the house, the
client chose not to. The pitch of the
upstairs roof is about 7-1/2, 7 and 12. We
could have gone to a 9 and 12 and that would
have still put us below the height
restrictions of the Town. We chose not to.
We tried to keep that as a iow profile, but we
added some dormers to it to give it a little
interest and also as just to address
(inaudible) it's also to increase (inaudible)
of the house. So we were kind of sensitive to
the height issues here.
The question of what their requirements
were, that was given to us and we tried to
make that work the best we could on that site
plan. So the square footage reflects that.
The deck area we have had sort of discussions
and the client is willing to cut that back on
the second floor a little bit, again, it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
really the requirements that were given to us
and again trying to be sensitive to the issues
of the property. You know the house next door
is a two-story house. It's a short two-story
house, but it nevertheless is on the site
drawing a two-story house. This is really
considered now a two-and-a-half story house
and we didn't attempt to go up higher and it's
kind of (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just give
us the elevation of the house in that letter,
also?
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that is.
The proposed house,
MR. NOTARO: Yup.
MEMBER SIMON: First of all, I'm glad you
addressed the question of the neighbor's
letter. I think it's quite laudable that you
make efforts, reasonable efforts to try and
accommodate the neighbors' concerns in
building a house. Just for the record,
though, I think it should be clear, strictly
speaking, you are not legally required to
attend to the views of people whose property
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is off that house. So I think it's good to be
responsive to it. That question isn't so much
before us with regard to the fact that when
Somebody builds a house across the street from
you that you don't see as much as you did
before. Sometimes, from my own case, I wish
it were possible given what's happened where I
live in New Suffolk; however, that's the point
I'm just saying you're to be commended for
taking these things into concern, it's good
neighborly, and so on, to the extent that it
is possible and reasonable.
I am concerned, and in some ways this has
been covered by Leslie and by Gerry, the lot
coverage issue. Quite frankly, I'm confused
and that's why I'm glad that more things are
going to be provided. What the application
does call for is a demolition and,
technically, of course, when you start again
what existed previously doesn't have a whole
lot of force and, in fact, the lot coverage of
the house that is being proposed is almost
one-third more than the other house occupying
it and I think there are good reasons why the
applicant needs a larger house; however, in
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addition, it is 20 percent more than the Code
and so it's very important for us to know,
think, exactly what the proposed lot coverage
will be. It's important to know which part of
the decks are subject to the lot coverage
requirement and which parts are not and before
we can fully review it and consider the
requests for a 20 percent variance with
respect to lot Coverage, I think we just need
to have this kind of information.
MR. NOTARO: Well, that number will go
down.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, that's what I'm
looking forward to seeing.
MR. NOTARO: (Inaudible) the existing
deck when it's (inaudible). So that number
will go down substantially.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's wonderful.
I don't have any specific questions, at
this time, Mr. Notaro. We thank you. Let's
see what develops.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Yes, ma'am. Would you kindly state your
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
name for the record?
MS. ~2~ELLO: My name is (inaudible)
A~nello (sic) and I live next door.
UNIDENTIFIED: Spell that, please.
MS. ~NELLO: A-N-E-L-L-O. I live next
door to Betsy Graseck. I'm the person they
were talking about the decks in the backyard
and the view. She --
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: So you live to the
west?
MS. ANELLO: I live to the west of her.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have to
establish that because we've had some People
that didn't know which geographic location
when you speak about what you're doing.
MS. ~LNELLO: Okay, just to the west. She
has been very accoramodating and we now --
we've been talking a lot about how to preserve
some of my water view that I'm going to be
losing and she has really gone OUt of her way
above and beyond trying to help us preserve
some of the view that we currently have and I
appreciate it and that's why I think she
deserves to have this new home that she
certainly needs it. Her family is growing and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
she is just an -- she drove out early this
morning to come over and look at -- to stand
upstairs and look out the window and say okay
so what can we do to, you know, make this good
for the both of us and, you know, she really
is trying for everybody involved to not try
and build a McMansion, which everybody calls
the other house. So I just wanted to let
everybody know that, you know, she is trying
to not make this house into something that
everybody is going to be upset about and I
appreciate it. I know everyone appreciates it
and I know she's gonna make the uDDer deck --
she's changing. She's going to make it
instead of 8 feet to 6 overall, but she's
willing to cut that a little bit so I don't
lose as much of my view and I think it's
great.
Hopefully, this will work out for her so
I just wanted to stand up here and say that
she deserves this house and if there's
anything that we can do to help her
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Is there anybody else who would like to
Speak?
Seeing no hands, we just go back to Mr.
Notaro, so you're going to give us all the
information we're requesting and does the
Board have any other requests of the architect
at this time?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. I'll make a
resolution that we close the hearing, pending
submission of the requested material.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do I hear a second?
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6137 - JSC Resources,
James Zizzi, President
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15, based on the Building Inspector's
February 11, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning an as-built accessory swimming pool
situated in a side yard rather than the code-
required rear yard, at 3190 Haywaters Road,
Cutchogue; CTM 111-11-13."
Now I note that that is a corner property
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
and I just ask a meaty question which you will
not mind.
NfRS. MOORE: No, it's not a corner
property.
MEMBER SIMON: What?
MRS. MOORE: It's not a corner property.
ME/~BER SIMON: It's not? It's not on the
corner of -- it does not have two front yards?
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Then I'm mistaken.
MRS. MOORE: That's okay.
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's a little
confusing over there cause everybodys kind of
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: It's one off of Kerry
Street.
MEMBER SIMON: One off of Kerry, okay.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. It's up on the hill.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I've seen it. I've
seen it and I didn't realize when I walked on
that side (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Okay. No, that's fine.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: ~Lny other
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
questions, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: No, I'm just inviting Ms.
Moore to explain why there is an application
for a variance.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I would be pleased to.
Thank you. Good morning.
And I apologize, I didn't know that there
was one before me so I was premature in coming
up to the podium. I have James Zizzi here who
is the owner and builder of this beautiful
home and pool, and I have Mrs. Hill who is the
contract (inaudible) who is hoping to close on
this as soon as we have a determination of
this variance.
From your inspection it would be very
obvious why it was necessary to put the pool
in the side yard. The sanitary, this property
is very typical of Nassau Point properties
where they're long, narrow, unusually
configured and to show the property itself is,
again, long and narrow with a tremendous
amount of road frontage on Haywaters Road and
relatively the depth of the property is 156 on
the widest point where the house is and
narrows down to 88 feet or so on the south
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
side of the property.
The sanitary system is in the rear yard.
The property is well sloped. You can see
beautiful terraces that were built and the
flat area, the plateau of the property, is for
the most part where the house is and where the
pool is. So when they were, Mr. Zizzi was
designing the structure and the pool, it was
obvious that it had to be in the side yard.
What happened is just a typical -- but
sometimes it happens to people, where he
applied with a building permit for the house
and the pool to be built at the same time. He
got his permit and somewhere along the line
there was a notation that they hadn't issued
the permit for the pool. They didn't realize
it, they had filed away the paperwork, and
posted the sign, which had no indication on
it. The Building Department inspected it
routinely with the typical inspection process
that goes on in construction of a house and
nobody mentioned that the pool -- it didn't
become clear that the pool wasn't included or
didn't have a permit until the buyer did a
search of the records, which typically is done
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
when you're buying a house. The Title company
does a search of the permits on the property
and, lo and behold, where's the permit for the
pool. They went back, looked, and here we are
today.
They had to properly come before the
Board and ask for a variance for a pool in a
side yard. I think that given the
circumstances, again, the sanitary, the
dimensions of the property, the slope of the
property and the fact that Nassau Point has
routinely required variances for accessory
buildings that's either a front yard because
of the way a corner lot -- there are lots of
streets in Nassau Point or an accessory
structure in a side yard. The Board would
have, I think, reasonably approved this
application. I'm hoping that you would
(inaudible) that accept for the fact that it's
as-built, there really is no other logical
location for this pool.
I had Mr. Zizzi provide me, because I
know it's an issue that we always deal with,
proper drainage with respect to the pool
filter. We provided for you or he provided
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
for me and I passed on to you, the (Inaudible)
pool filter system, which is a very unique
pool system that requires no drain. It is
used routinely on the South Fork, particularly
because of the environmental issues that they
deal with on waterfront properties and this is
the system that is in place here. So when you
don't see a drain for the pool filter there
are proper drains in accordance with the Code
for the house. So the house is all properly -
- all drainage issues are covered very
completely on this house. The pool has a non
-- has a pool filter that doesn't require the
drain. So he did provide that to us.
I have for you, and just for the record
because I know you -- many of the Board
members have been on the Board for a very long
time and I know that you're familiar with
Nassau Point, but I have just a quick research
of the other properties' tax map numbers just
in the region of where Haywaters and
Harrington, I do know Nassau Point is quite
large and there's a lot of variances all
throughout, but I have a handful of variances
that have been issued in the past for very
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
similar structures in Some -- one instance
it's a tennis court, an accessory structure,
but otherwise they're pools. So I'm just
going to put that on the record for the Board,
in the file, but
know the Board is
Point.
I do know (inaudible) I do
quite familiar with Nassau
I can answer any other question you might
have. Mr. Zizzi is here and I know Mrs. Hill
would just like to introduce herself and
address the Board for just a moment.
MEMBER SIMON: Gerry, I'd like to ask a
comment first.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, go ahead.
MEMBER SIMON: Just to add a comment, I'm
glad you addressed the question and discussed
about the location of the pool at the very
outset and this is a good application, a test
that some of us like to use when considering
an as-built, that is would the variance have
reasonably been granted had it been sought at
the proper time and I'm glad that you
addressed that point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need to ask
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36
a preliminary question. Is there any
enclosure around the pool -- I've been to the
site twice and believe it or not I kind of --
I was rather enamored with the pool and I
forgot all about looking at the equipment.
MRS. MOORE: It is a gorgeous house and
(inaudible) I came back from my inspections
and gave him a big pat on the back. It is a
beautiful, beautiful property and beautiful
house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: I know Mrs. Hill and her
family are going to be very happy there.
There is a fence and there is patio.
Everything is showing on your survey. So if
you have the survey it pretty much shows all
of the terraces and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But is there any
soundproofing enclosure around the pool
filter?
MRS. MOORE: Oh, around the pool filter
there is some shrubbery. I think there --
yeah, there's (inaudible). I remember seeing
it cause I did look. I'll let you answer.
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MR. ZIZZI: Yeah, I'm James Zizzi, Z-I-Z-
Z-I. I'm the builder/owner. What I did is I
dropped the pool equipment dow~ about 2-1/2
feet, so it's about 30 inches dropped and a
stone wall that's actually --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Around it.
MR. ZIZZI: The filter system is located
more or less in the center of the lot and I
have landscaping around the filter, which
basically Screens it. So if you're at the
pool, you don't even see the equipment cause
it's below the wall and the shrubbery there.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: Are there any -- is
there any noise emanating from the filter when
it's running?
MR. ZIZZI: Not at all. Not at all.
CHAIRMiLN GOEHRINGER: That's the reason
why I omitted the -- Okay, is there any
anticipation on your part or any anticipation
from the potential buyer to enclose this pool
in any way? I mean roof it over, make a room
out of it, make a --
MR. ZIZZI: Okay, what we will consider
is probably we're going to make an application
to the Building Department for a conforming
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38
location for cabanna in the rear yard, but it
will be in a conforming location.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MR. ZIZZI: (Inaudible) and I've been
building for 30 years. This is the second
variance I've gotten in 30 years, I've built
over 350 homes. This is the first one that I
incorrectly build 250 square feet more than an
architect did ask me -- where we ran into a
problem here is typically the process that
comes out of the Building Department with the
structure that was supposed to be on it. My
office received the paperwork and in the
paperwork body is the paper permit that just
says, '~Note: No Pool."
Ironically, I'm building a house on
Nassau Point Road right now and the applicant,
the Santiagos, applied for a building permit
with a swimming pool in a side yard on a
bluff. I received paperwork from the Building
Department. I received a letter explaining to
me that I'd have to file for a variance and it
was very clearly depicted to us on all the
forms that we had a problem.
When we didn't see this, it's (inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
there, it's my mistake. I accept it as the
builder, I built the pool, but I had it
inspected through the whole process with th~
municipality. The building inspectors were
there, they saw it, they never once brought up
to us, and if I would have known that I would
have corrected it then, and to be honest with
you I have a CO of the property, I h~ve ~h~ CA
in my file. When the client decided they
wanted to purchase it, it was not through a
search, it was through our discovery that we
noticed that we didn't have a CO for the pool.
We contacted the municipality, they told us we
didn't have it and we immediately went forward
with the ZBA. I apologize for it, it was an
error, and I can assure you now my secretary
will be reading everything.
CHAIRMA~N GOEHRINGER: Before you leave
there may be a question from Ms. Leslie
Weisman.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning.
MR. ZIZZI: Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you for submitting
the information for the file about the nature
of the equipment. The way the acoustics and
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the topography of the citing work there'll
40
be
no issue or problem with any noise consequence
or any necessary -_ you've done ~v~ry
mitigating circumstance that this Board would
likely have conditioned any kind of a pool in
a side yard for.
I would reflect on the record that the
topography is such that frora ~aywat~r th~r~ i~
no way you're even going to see this pool
because the elevation changes so dramatically.
There are so many mature trees along the
periphery of the property and it's set back so
far from the other neighbors, basically, that
-- and again, given the topography, there is
no other alternative for a pool, but the
location in which you've placed it. There
isn't a lot coverage issue and, you know, I
see absolutely no problem with this
application.
MR. ZIZZI: We did do a lot with the
landscaping. I brought in quite a few trees
cause the neighbor at the corner of Harrington
I had met him when he was building his permit
house there and I had told him I would plant
heavily that border, which I did do, and I
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also planted the rear buffer line also.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You did, indeed. So
it's vegetative screening that is typical of
the kind of thing we might have Suggested as a
condition and granted a variance of this sort
for the very reasons you did the planting,
which is to protect everybody's privacy. So
you did a beautiful job.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just jumping in,
excuse me, Leslie. I apologize.
Just jumping in there for a second. You
have relatively contacted the neighbors,
they're aware of the situation and everybody
seems to be okay with this?
MR. ZIZZI: The house has been posted.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, just I was very
impressed really with the landscaping. The
pool is gorgeous and there really isn't any
other place to put the pool unless you put a
tiny little lap pool in the rear yard. So I
really don't have a problem with it. You did
a good job.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what else
develops throughout the hearing. We thank you
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
for your opinion and your statements.
Hi,
MRS.
Hill.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MRS. HILL: I'm glad to be here and to
meet you. My husband, Steven, is sorry he's
not going to be here today. He had spinal
surgery a few weeks ago and he is home
suffering painfully, but we saw this house in
Nassau Point and the swimming pool, for his
rehabilitation, is crucial because of course
for the next two years, maybe the rest of his
life, he needs pool therapy. So that's why
this pool is extremely important that we have
it.
We are in the process of retiring. I'm
retired. My husband is retired and we're
planning on moving out here full-time and
becoming an active member of this wonderful
community. We've been in love with this area
since 1975 when he had his first spinal
surgery and we've been coming out here with a
small boat since then and now we're looking
forward to becoming permanent residents.
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just state your name for the record.
HILL: Hi. Good morning. Linda
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43
We thank you for your consideration and
we hope that the process will be speedily
resolved. Thank you so very much for this
opportunity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll raake a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6138 - Paul and Cheryl Ragusa
MEMBER WEISMAN:
'~Request for Variances under Sections
280-15 and 280-116, based on the Building
Inspector's February 11, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory
swimming pool and raised terrace structures at
less than 100 feet from the top of the bluff,
and side yard location for the swimming pool
rather than a code-required yard, at 1600
Hyatt Road, Southold; CTM 50-1-6."
Is there anyone here who will addressing
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
this? Okay.
The application, so I can clarify it, is
for a gunite 16 foot by 32, is that right I
can't read my writing, foot swimming pool and
a raised stone terrace in the side yard. The
pool would be setback at 24 feet from the
bluff, while the Code requires 100 feet, and
the terrace would be setback at 22.5~
from the bluff.
I do have some questions, but I think
we'll let you go ahead, Pat, and let you
present your case.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. I just brought
in a new aid in the process. I know Ural is
here, Cheryl Ragusa the owner is here, and I
also have Joe Fischetti, professional engineer
who's going to be speaking to you regarding
certain issues and he's here today as well.
The original application that was
submitted to the Building Department, my
initial reaction to, the Ragusa's and to Ural,
I said it was lovely, but I think it's too
much and I think the Board may think it's too
much. So right off the bat she was very
receptive to my comments and we do have some
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
alternatives we would like to be considered
because the important thing here is that we
don't want to impact the bluff. /Lnybody who
lives on the Sound they have the greatest
interest to make Sure that whatever they do to
their property is respectfully preserving
their property. I know the Board is very
cognizant about it and I think many of
hearings that we had dealt with that issue.
So right off the bat I'm going to tell you
that the proposal has been significantly
shaved down and we're going to discuss how you
think it can be more approDriately sited, the
pool can be more appropriately sited and the
structure can be reduced.
I'm going to begin by saying that there
was a letter from a neighbor, I don't know if
he's here today or not, but there was a letter
and I think there were some statements in the
letter that I want to clarify for the record.
To begin with, this house and I'm familiar
with the registered property because I was
here before the Board when I came to add a
typical second floor on an existing residence.
I don't know why I didn't find it the first
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time, but apparently there was an old 1967
variance that was granted for an accessory
building in the front yard and actually in
that variance it recited the fact that the
house was already there and I think in our
original estimate of when the house was
constructed I assumed from the property
(inaudible) it was the late ~60s. but in fact
it would have been prior to 1967. So the
house was there, the owner at the time was
Hyatt and someone else. Weiss and Hyatt. So
it was the original owners of Hyatt Road, they
were involved in that aDDlication.
Anyway, the house with respect to some of
the accusations in the letter were that they
built this house and didn't leave any room for
a pool and, you know, tough on them. They
should have really thought about it before
they built their house. That's not the case,
the house was there. We worked within the
existing house, in fact, the addition that
connected the new garage because the existing
house was renovated and it's a beautiful house
today. The existing garage is pushed forward
precisely to leave room for the potential
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
patio and potential accessory structure should
the time come that they would be ready to ask
for it. So there is room or there -- we think
that there is room and what I have and I'm
going to have, actually, Ural come up because
he can describe the different alternatives at
this point. Just as Mr. Notaro, I think,
earlier pointed out that there wer~ h~ti~
emails going back with the client as to the
plan and it's a developing plan, I think we
actually have a similar situation where we
were trying to design a smaller structure from
the moment I got involved and with Ural's held
to try to bring something to you that would be
acceptable and just keep in mind, LWRP
comments and Coastal Erosion comments, and
certainly neighbors' comments. Ural, why
don't you --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
state your name
MR. TALGAT:
architect --
Ural, would you
for the record, please?
Ural Talgat, I'm the
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER OLIVA:
BOARD ASST.:
Speak up, please
It's not working.
We have to move that up,
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48
sorry.
MR. TALGAT: Can you hear me now?
MEMBER OLIVA: Much better.
MR. TALGAL: Ural Talgat, I'm the
architect and landscape architect. I'd like
to present to the Board several options that
we've been talking with with Pat and Mrs.
Ragusa.
I've developed five different options.
Actually, three primary options from the
setback from the bluff back to the pool.
Design B, your first sheet should show there's
34 feet 5 inches back from the tod of the
bluff to the edge of the pool. This is
keeping in line with the house, the existing
house that's there --
MRS. MOORE: Also point out -- sorry.
MR. TALGAT: Point out, also, the setback
from the property line is 15 feet within the
setback of bu±ldable area.
MRS. MOORE: One more thing we're going
to point out, though, Ural cause I remember
all these things that we've reduced down.
There used to be a patio and retaining wall.
The original plan had the pool --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- with a patio and
retaining wall all integrated.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: That was -- go ahead.
MiR. TALGAT: There's an existing
retaining wall at the top of the page, I'm
sorry it didn't print here very well, but
there's an elevation mark at 75-76. That 75-
76 is the edge of the existing retaining wall.
What we're trying to do also is add another
retaining wall going further out towards the
bluff and the purpose of that would be to
catch any water that's going to be running
down from the side of the terrace to that
retaining wall and directing that water back
towards the property.
MEMBER OLIVA: The whole grade from the
existing terrace, it just goes right down to
the side there and then you have that gully
going along the --
MR. TALGAT: Yes, yes. Well, we tried to
direct all the water from that edge back
towards the property instead of towards the
bluff or to the neighbor. Right now it goes
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
right to the neighbor and we're trying to
catch that water, that's the purpose of that
proposed retaining wall.
MRS. MOORE:
installed.
MR. TALGAT: Yes, the drywells are still
to be installed.
MRS. MOORE: The house renovations are --
MR. TALGAT: Right, the gutters on the
house, the downspouts. The gutters are still
to be connected to proposed drywells that will
happen on the property and we're still trying
to catch all of the water that hit anywhere
along the pool to be redirected back toward
the property to drywells and right now we've
taken away on this scheme and all the other
schemes here, the terrace. We're not adding a
terrace. The pool will be on grade surrounded
by lawn.
MEMBER OLIVA: You're still going to have
to move it up with the grade, won't you, Ural?
MR. TALGAT: Excuse me?
MEM~BER OLIVA: Won't the grade have to be
raised slightly?
MR. TALGAT: No.
The drywells are still to be
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MEMBER OLIVA: No?
MR. TALGAT: The pool at
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one edge will be
level and as the grade falls away the pool
will be up higher, but the grade, the natural
grade, will fall down. We're not touching
that at all.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right. Okay.
MR. T/LLGAT: The second schem~, D~sign C,
is similar, in fact, that it's surrounded by
lawn. We're taking away the terrace. We're
still proposing a retaining wall along that
northeasterly edge to catch the rainwater, but
the pool is set back further away from the
bluff. It's actually -- everything I based on
from the house. It's setback from the edge of
the house 6 feet back. So it's further back
from the bluff 40 feet 2 inches at the closest
point to the bluff and again it's surrounded
by lawn. We're directing all of our water
back towards the property to drywells. We're
not putting any terracing around there.
MRS. MOORE: If I could just point out --
we're going to do this in tandem, frick and
frack here. One of the other, I'd like to
point out that this proposal narrows the pool
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down, again, runs it parallel to the top of
the bank, but because it's a narrower pool it
pushes it 11 feet to the side yard and that
was one of the variants initially. So I just
want to point that out that we can't maintain
in this plan she's unable to maintain the 15-
foot setback from the side yard. So just note
that on plan Design C.
MR. TALGAT: Also, frick here, we're also
diminishing the size of the pool from the
original size of the pool, which was 16 by 32.
In the first scheme to this scheme Design B
it's 16 by 20, again Design C is also 16 by
20. We've diminished the pool size
dramatically.
If we move on to Design D now, there is
actually a total of five alternate designs,
it's similar, but it's a larger pool closer to
the house, but in line with the face of the
existing house. Everything, again, is
similar, it's 11 feet back from the property
line as our original submission to the ZBA.
Also, our retaining wall is the same, we're
still putting that out there, it's lawn and
there is no terrace.
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Design E is a little different. We're
setting it back from the edge of the house.
It's 6 feet back from the edge of the house,
again, 40 feet 2 inches from the bluff at it's
closest point to the pool. It's an L-shaped
pool, which we're keeping 11 feet from the
side yard of the property. We still putting
the retaining wall out to catch all of the
water, but it's just a different design.
I think if you move on to Design F, again
in this design there is no terracing. In
Design F there is no terracing, it's similar
to our first submission to the ZBA, except
that we've taken out the terracing. We're
still 11 feet away from the property line and
24 feet away from the top of the bluff. This
is similar to the original application we've
put in, except for the terracing. There is no
terracing in this design.
When I looked at this project, I can see
three set -- actually two major setbacks. The
first setback is setback away from the bluff.
How far back should the pool be? The other
setback is setback away from the property
line. I've come up with several solutions
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here for this. The pool in all of these
situations have become a little bit smaller.
The impact to grade has become much less
because we're not putting a terrace down on
the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Quick question and
please excuse me for jumping in. Why is it
necessary to have the steps on Design B as all
the designs adjacent to the garage? Why can't
you push the pool closer to the garage to gain
a little more footage and then put the steps
on the opposite side?
MR. TALGAT: Right now, Design B. Design
C, Design D and Design F what we were trying
to do with that is have an automatic pool
cover built into it. One portion of the pool,
the coping has to be three feet in order to
incorporate the mechanics of that automatic
pool cover. When we do that, we need steps to
come up that grade instead of having a slope
down to it. Just a natural progression up a
little bit higher.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How wide are those
steps?
MR. TALGAT: 5 feet 11, Design B shows 5
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feet 11 inches.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: They can't be
reduced to 3 feet?
MR. TALGAT: Yeah,
just narrow. We can, we can, but with all due
respect, it's kind of narrow.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because that at
it's widest point then puts it 40 feet from
the bluff and then at it's narrowest point
puts it 37 feet or almost 37 feet.
MR. TALGAT: Yes, yes.
CHAIRMA2N GOEHRINGER: That could be done?
MR. TALGAT: Yes, it can be done.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I'll go
back to --
MR. TALGAT: Can I add one other thing?
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. TALGAT: This morning, I basically do
a lot of fishing on the Sound, Horton's Point
is one of my favorite places to fish from
either it's surf fishing from the beach or
it's from my little boat that I launch from
Sound Beach and Horton's Point is lovely.
I've noticed that to the east of Horton's
Point there's been a lot of slides. This
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2008
but at that point it's
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morning when I walked and looked at this
property and all the properties along the --
again it's the east side of this property --
I've noticed a couple of things.
First of all, the toe of the bluff here
it's flat. There's 12 to 15 feet from where
there is no grass and the beach is. It goes
in 15 feet and there's natural beach grass
that's been growing there for several years.
It doesn't look like it's been planted, it's
just been naturalized. That's number one.
The toe of the bluff starts 15 feet back from
that and then goes up. The slope has not
eroded away. All the existing trees are there
and none of the trees have fallen causing any
erosion and of all the properties from
Horton's Point to this project property are
much more severe in slope than this property
and I had to walk that beach and I've seen
that beach, I've seen actually landslides to
the east and north of Horton's Point and this
section of bluff, from my experience and I've
been out here twenty years fishing on the
Sound, has been very, very stable.
MEMBER OLIVA: It looks stable. I looked
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at it very carefully because we got a good
report, too, from Soil and Water and advise
the -- Mrs. Ragusa not to dump any leaves or
anything else Over, even if a tree goes down,
maybe take the tree down, but leave the roots
in because it does hold the soil in.
MR. TALGAT: Yes, absolutely.
MEMBER OLIVA: Because sh~ has two
ravines both on the east and west side that
can --
MR. TALGAT: Absolutely.
MEMBER OLIVA: -- just act as a drain for
the water to be very careful that no water
gets down there.
MR. TALGAT:
properties to the
This morning there are
east that I just saw a
recent slide this winter, not on this
property, properties to the east of her and to
the north between Horton's Point and her
property that this one tree had fallen and
slid down that it was evident because of all
that tree swinging back and forth and that
eventually slides when the ground is wet and
in this property we don't have any of those
situations. It's a very stable, flat slope.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Question, are the
stairs at the Ragusa residence stable enough
to walk down?
MR. T~kLGAT: I believe I've seen them
very stable. They look pretty old, they look
like they've been there for a long time and I
did not walk them. I can say that, but I've
also walked the steps at Horton's Point and
Horton's Point sticks out the furthest.
They're very old, they're rickety, but they
haven't moved. That bottom of that stair has
been there ever since I've been surf fishing
there.
CHAIRM3LN GOEHRINGER: The reason I asked
that question is because I'll be down over the
weekend to walk down there.
MR. TALGAT: Yes, definitely. Once you
walk down there you see what's there, you'll
understand how that bluff has been so stable.
Thank you.
CHAIRM~_N GOEHRINGER: We'll go back to
you, we apologize.
MRS. MOORE: Would it be a good time to
have Joe Fischetti come before the Board
because that may leave -- I mean, we're
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dealing with bluff issues and I thought that
that would be a good time.
MEMBER WEISM3kN: Let me have one look,
Pat, just to look at questions I have there
may be Some additional ones that --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, go ahead.
CHAIRM3tN GOEHRINGER: While you're
looking at questions can I just mention on~
thing about advertising?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I think
based upon your specific proposals, we
probably are going to have to readvertise so
this will be postponed until the next meeting
and then we will take all of them into
consideration. I'm not speaking for the
Board, I will take all of them in
consideration. I'm sure everybody will be
able to voice their own opinions.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. The only problem I
have is the April meeting I'm out of the
country, so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: If it's
hearing then I would ask that
Right.
going to reopen the
it be --
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BOARD ASST.: In May, it's available in
May.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For May.
MRS. MOORE: -- for the next available.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) interested if
your amended plans are (inaudible)
procedurally -_
MRS. MOORE: Well, what we wer~ trying to
accomplish here today is giving you
alternatives that showed you that if you
provide us with, don't go closer than here,
don't go closer than there, we will work
within the footprint that you allow us to work
under and what I wanted Ural to do is provide
-- give the client an ability to understand
what -- when you do create those setbacks that
they're workable setbacks cause the last thing
we need is --
BOARD ASST.: No, I maybe didn't explain
myself, I'm sorry. The 15-foot setback in the
side yard will not meet Code now, it's a new
variance that is being triggered that has not
been advertised?
MRS. MOORE: That wasn't included in the
-- cause I think the original proposal was at
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11 feet.
BOARD ASST.:
has that in there?
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
the original pool was
The original disapproval
yeah. I believe that
at 11 feet.
MR. TALGAT:
original pool was
MRS. MOORE:
That's correct. The
at 11 feet.
(Inaudible) side yard.
knew that the side yard --
MR. TALGAT:
BOARD ASST.:
on the side yard.
MRS. MOORE:
noted and so was
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah, side yard.
I'm sorry, okay.
This is
hearing, but we'll wait and see.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At the very least,
if the people that are expressing a concern
regarding this are present they need to see
this application as it would be proposed and
we have no idea how the Board is interested,
in which one they are interested, which we
appreciate by the way, collectively, I'll
speak for the Board in that respect. So I
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Yes. The side yard was
the -- yes, okay good.
(Inaudible).
So we may not need that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
mean that needs to be shown to them. They
need to be able to understand that and they
may need also to go out and check it and come
back and voice their opinion. So we'll leave
that at the end of this whole --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's to be
determined.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, I apologize
again.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I guess this is a hot
one.
MRS. MOORE: Pools are always such hot
issues.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just prior to talking
about environmental impacts, I'm looking at
Soil and Water. In the previous variance that
was granted the Regusas for building the
additions and alterations --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- they were able,
because of the fact that they were preexisting
as close to the bluff as they are, to take
advantage of being able to continue that
footprint and build up and landward. There
were conditions that were cited in that
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variance having to do with, of course, the use
of heavy machinery within 50 feet of the top
of the bluff favoring being not permitted and
being limited only to small light weight
construction equipment. I know you're going
to take care of roof runoff and all of that
stuff relative to the house and drainage. No
change in grade of the parcel between the top
of the bluff and the dwelling. Grass, you
know, a turf buffer area had to be removed
between the dwelling and the top of the bluff
(inaudible).
Now, in terms of the construction of a
pool seaward of the existing house, can you
please address a little bit more about the way
in which -- cause it's not cited, it's not
drawn in, actually, either in section or on
the site plan -- the way in which you're going
to keep the topography unchanged, build a pool
and redirect the water back toward the
property with a proposed secondary structure,
how does that get built without heavy
equipment?
MR. TALGAT: Heavy equipment, my question
is what is heavy equipment? A bobcat, is that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
heavy equipment?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. TALGAT: No.
be dug with a bobcat,
No.
I think this pool can
if the Board basically
states that. Whatever it will take to build
this pool without heavy equipment, I'm sure
will be taken into consideration and gone in
that direction during construction.
Now, with the question regarding grading
and slopes. In these designs I've shown, I've
tried to keep as close as possible grading up
to the existing terrace stair. What I've done
is made sure that the existing grades are
changed a little bit so it directs water away
from the bluff. In each one of these designs,
I've changed the topography so to direct water
instead of towards the bluff to the neighbor,
I~ve been changing the topography a little bit
using the edge of that existing terrace as a
base point and directing water away from the
bluff, away from the neighbors, put in a
retaining wall out towards the bluff to catch
any rainwater runoff that may move towards the
neighbor and direct it back towards our
property where we will catch that in drywells.
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
the drainage plan.
plans.
MR. TALGAT:
grading. Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
them.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
Okay, well we don't have
What we have here are site
This is a site plan with
(Inaudible) lines are on
the original submission there was a detail of
the --
MR. TALGAT: This was the larger drawing
showing the wall --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When you speak
Ural, you're going to have to speak to the
microphone.
MR. TALGAT: Microphone.
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MRS. MOORE:
MR. TALGAT:
MRS. MOORE:
(Inaudible) original plan?
Yes.
If you look at the large --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I doubt that that's
really -- it doesn't show a retaining wall --
MR. TALGAT: I'm sorry, the drawing that
I made a copy of these, the larger drawing had
that double line up on the top of the sheet
here. This double line here. Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. You're talking
about the retaining wall in the side yard.
MR. TALGAT: I'm talking about the
retaining wall in the side yard. There's an
existing retaining wall --
UNIDENTIFIED: They're talking at once.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need a cut in
between.
MR. TALGAT: Sorry.
MRS. MOORE: The only retaining wall that
you're addressing is one that is along the
property line, correct?
MR. TALGAT: The retaining wall is on the
subject property. It's along side the
property line on our property and there is an
existing retaining wall, which we are going to
be extending out closer to the bluff, but not
touching the bluff. It's basically in line
with the existing terrace and that retaining
wall, even though it may not be acting as a
retaining wall, it's going to be acting as a
curb to catch water to direct water back
towards the property instead of towards the
bluff.
MRS. MOORE:
I'd also point out that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
pool backwash system, whether they use a
backwash system or I'm going to give them the
paperwork from my previous
self-contained filter that
backwash, the pool doesn't
hearing on the
requires no
create the
drainage, the drainage here of this property
is the lawn area. The house retains the water
from the roof runoff in drywells that are
directed now with the new Code as well as with
the prior Board decisions.
The original house had to have all the
roof runoff contained. The water that they
are trying to maintain at this point is lawn
area or, you know, what's left
that is -- was being contained
extent with the existing curb,
wall curb that was at the edge
of the property and that would
to control more of the runoff,
MR. TALGAT: Rain runoff.
of lawn area
to a certain
that retaining
of the eastside
be extended out
ground runoff.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two other questions
before we go into looking at the Soil and
Water and Joe Fischetti's testimony. When the
applicant originally applied for and had a
variance that was granted, why was a proposed
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swimming pool not included in that at the
time?
MRS. MOORE: I don't think that they were
even close to being ready to decide on a pool.
They're -- remember how they got here was that
originally that the Town Code dealt with an
expansion of a second floor over an existing
structure very differently, so that kind of
threw all their timelines, all their plans and
their budget completely out of whack. They
are close to finishing up the house, ready to
move in and now you start thinking of alright
how am I going to enjoy my property and this
issue comes up, but am I accurate in --
MRS. RAGUSA: Pretty accurate.
MRS. MOORE: Come on up. That I can't
answer other than --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record, Mrs. Ragusa.
MRS. RAGUSA: Hi, I'm Cheryl Ragusa. It
also sort of came up that I wanted a swimming
pool and originally my husband didn't. So it
kind of didn't initially come up because of
partially budget issues and whatnot and
husband and wife debate like, you know, do you
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
want a pool, can we put a pool in, can we
maybe do a pool next summer? So that's kind
of why it didn't -- the initial plans were so
overwhelming we honestly weren't even --
couldn't even think about it yet. So that's
kind of why it didn't even come up right away.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That is a point that was
raised in a letter from the neighbor and I
wanted to get it on the record with respect to
your answer.
MRS. RAGUSA: Oh yes. It's just cause it
was something we didn't really think about
yet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so another
question then is why not locate a swimming
pool in the, since you're waterfront property,
the allowed front yard rather than attempting
to place it (inaudible) --
MRS. RAGUSA:
cesspools, yeah,
MR. TALGAT:
Actually there's a -- the
you can tell them why.
On the large sheet that I've
just submitted there is shown the sanitary
system with the setbacks from the sanitary
system. The sanitary system is located in the
front yard. The sanitary setbacks from the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Health Department are 20 feet from leaching
pools. That basically takes up the entire
front yard and we're not supposed to be
driving on those sanitary systems either, so
that's another reason.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Do you want to
have --
MRS. MOORE: Are you ready for -- any
more questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, Joe. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm just wondering,
does the Board have a -- excuse me one second,
Mr. Fischetti, I'm not trying to take your
testimony out, does the Board have any
specific questions of Pat or the applicant
prior to Mr. Fischetti? We're always willing
to hear Mr. Fischetti, but are you willing
hear Mr. Fischetti
MEMBER SIMON:
probably wait.
first before we go into --
Well, my question could
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a lot of
environmental impacts and perhaps they'll be
clarified once he --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, Mr.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Fischetti, a pleasure seeing you. Would you
state your name for the record, please?
MR. FISCHETTI: Good morning. My name is
Joe Fischetti. I'm a professional engineer.
I'd like to start with Paul Tenyenhuis',
well it's the Soil and Water, T-E-N-Y-E-N-H-U-
I-S, that's why I can't pronounce it, but I
know Paul and I've spoken to him. His letter
from February 21, 2008 he states, and I was
very surprised, he states that the bluff is
high and steep. That's not really a technical
use of that term. The bluff actually is not
steep, if we use the word steep. So I went on
the survey I looked at the property and said,
well, this doesn't look steep to me, but let
me do some calculations.
So calculating the toe of the slope and
the top of the bluff and doing a cross-section
of the elevations, now the bluff is irregular.
There are some areas that are steeper than
others within the confines there. It's a very
irregular slope especially with how the stairs
come down and we have that peninsula kind of
coming out in the middle. So it's very
irregular.
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So what I've done is basically an average
here and the profile shows a 31-degree slope.
Now, we all know that sand and gravel on the
Sound Shore bluffs have an angle of repose
around 37-degrees. So this is a basically
stable slope. So you can't really call it
steep if it's stable and it's 31-degrees.
There are areas within the bluff that are a
little more steep than others. So calling
this a steep slope is a little bit -- is not
correct. I would think that this is -- the
better term would be to call this bluff a
stable slope.
His last paragraph also I really wanted
to clarify his last paragraph and I'll read
it. It says, "the installation of the pool
has same affect as a house." Maybe. "It adds
tremendous weight load on the soils." Maybe.
Now a house has to be built above ground, but
a pool doesn't have to be built above ground.
If a pool is built above ground, it will add
impact and additional weight to the soil and
the bluff above. If it's built on the grade
as the Ragusa pool, it actually adds less
weight. Water weighs 62.5 pounds and soil
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
weighs 120 pounds. So if you built a pool
you're actually removing the weight of the
soil. So "tremendous weight", a little bit of
a hyperbole there. Especially, again, if this
pool is built at grade the way that Ural has
designed it it is at grade and it will not
impact any loads on here.
You actually -- this, by having a stable
slope, I'd like to just give you some ideas as
to construction and what happens here actually
in the field. You could actually on a stable
slope and the internal friction angles of that
soil, anywhere on that top of the slope up to
the edge of the bluff, you could add
additional weight and not add any instability
to that slope because that slope is stable.
Now, if the slope is any higher than that 37,
or around 37, 38, 39 degrees, the slope tends
to be unstable and any loads put on the top
would impact that and add instability to the
slope.
Now, let me give you an example. One of
my clients just purchased a house right here
on Main Road right across from Bridgehampton
National Bank. It's an 1860s house. It's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
going to be used as a office building and the
main house has a foundation of stacked stones
and the foundation is a crawl space. Now they
want to use, because it's an office, they need
air conditioning. So for us to get in there
to do the air conditioning I said you need to
have a basement. So basically what we did was
we cut into the side of the wall of this
existing stacked stone foundation and we
excavated a foundation and I went in there
with a bulldozer and the foundation wall is up
here at 2 feet below grade and we excavated
down to 5 feet. Now we went out 5 feet from
that foundation. His house is still standing,
we didn't support it, and I stayed within that
friction line and we excavated down to 5 feet.
So now here we have this house still standing
here and that soil is still
excavated it, we put a wall
it and everything is fine.
So in other words when
there. We
up, we backfilled
you stay out from
that friction line, it doesn't matter what
load you have to put on there. You will not
make that soil unstable, it depends on if we
cut in too close, we cut half that friction
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
line and got into maybe 3 feet, then maybe we
would have gone past that friction line and
made that footing unstable and it would have
collapsed. So look at that in light of the
fact of the bluff. You people are very
important to make -- to use factors of safety,
but you could in essence build a house right
at a stable bluff, build at the edge of the
bluff and not make it unstable.
Now, what we need to look at here and I
wanted to bring up this letter that was sent
to the Board from one of the neighbors. It
was a very good letter, it was a Mr. Toedter.
It was a very good letter, written very well
and the last paragraph talks about the DEC
coming and that the residents should be
trustees of the fragile ecosystem and it was a
very interesting paragraph. What I realized
is that the problems of our Sound Shore bluff
are because of the DEC and their regulations.
The DEC are causing the bluffs to be eroded
because they don't allow property owners to
build hardened bulkheads at the toe. It is
the bulkheads at the bottom that protect the
toe. It is not the weight at the top of the
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slope that caused bluffs to (inaudible). If
the toe of the slope is eroded you will have -
I don't care if it's -- as long as the bluff
is stable, the toe of the slope will erode.
Now that is the problem, it's not the weight
at the top of the slope. It's the erosion at
the bottom and if you fly like I have along
the bluff or you take boats along the side,
you'll see certain areas of the bluffs are
eroding. They don't come from the top and get
pushed down. No, it's the bottom. As long as
the toe of the slope gets eroded, that slope
will go.
Secondly, certain areas -- yeah, it's the
wave action and it's going to get worse in the
future because we're having much higher storms
with much higher wave action. If you don't
protect the toes, that's the problem not the
top. So any construction at the top of the
slope here is not going to make this bluff
unstable. After construction it will take
probably either a bobcat or a backhoe either
of those won't have any affect on the bluff.
It will take a backhoe about three hours to
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dig that foundation and get out of there and
after that it's all laborers.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In reality wouldn't
you say the backhoe, a smaller backhoe, would
be better than a bobcat?
MR. FISCHETTI: I -- a backhoe actually I
would think if -- yeah, you just dig it out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible).
MR. FISCHETTI: A bobcat just doing in.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pushing in.
MR. FISCHETTI: I would assume, I would
use a backhoe. I would use a backhoe just to
dig that out very quickly and be out of there.
A backhoe would be out in two or three hours.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: (inaudible) --
Mr.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Fischetti?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
Any questions of
First of all, I
found your presentation very interesting and I
consider it enlightening about, you know,
pointing out the relative density of soils
versus water, but there are other implications
and also your comments on the letter from Soil
and Water. I think your point about the -- I
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don't think anyone can reasonably quarrel with
your points about the need to protect the toe
of the bluff; however, that doesn't imply that
nothing that concerns the top of the bluff is
at all relevant. If you're right, if it's
right that that is -- then the Code is deeply
flawed in, for example, requiring a 100-foot
setback from the top of the bluff. In fact,
your argument about how you can build up there
would suggest that someone might say, well,
why not put it 2 feet from the edge of the
bluff and I'm -- I don't have the technical
expertise to know why it has to be more than 2
feet, but I'm suggesting that there is clearly
more to the story than this.
MR. FISCHETTI: Can I answer that?
MEMBER SIMON: Sure.
MR. FISCHETTI: Well, when we had the
Health -- I deal a lot with the Health
Department and the Health Department has a
Code that says that wells and sanitaries have
to be 100 feet from each other. Now, we know
because of certain wells can absorb some of
the effluent. They do that because they need
to -- they have to assume that many, many
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when somebody
lest than 100 feet,
if it's okay. Now,
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FISCHETTI:
applications are going to come in and we want
to be as conservative as possible. So now
comes in with an application at
they'll look at it and see
I think t00 feet is okay.
It's okay.
No, no. I think 100 feet
is okay for your regulation also because you
have to look at each application in its own
merit.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FISCHETTI:
Right.
So that the 100 feet is
okay, but you have to look at is the bluff
stable or is it unstable.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MR. FISCHETTI: Is there a toe or is
there no toe? Is the toe there or not there,
how are the -- you have to look at each
application, specifically.
MEMBER SIMON: You're absolutely right.
MR. FISCHETTI: But that's not the same
as at 100 feet there's absolutely no
construction.
MEMBER SIMON: I
is saying that. What
know and neither of us
I'm saying is there is
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100 feet and one of the points is how much we
commonly give variances, as you know, for a
good deal less than 100 feet and one of the
important factors as to how close to the bluff
we could go is whether it's 31 degrees or 37
degrees.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's important.
MEMBER SIMON: And so we're in a matter
of -- we're talking about 25, 35 and 40 feet,
so it is a matter of degree and all of these
factors have to be taken into consideration.
MR. FISCHETTI: I agree with you.
MEMBER SIMON: None of us, I believe,
think that there is something absolute about
100 feet or 75 feet and it does depend upon
the relevant circumstances, which you cite.
So the point about Soil and Water regarding
the stress on the bluff, very important, but
just, if I may make a more general suggestion,
I like the idea that it's going to be
appropriate for there to be a continuation of
this hearing partly for the legal reasons of
having it advertised the alternative plans.
When the applicant resubmits, it may be
willing to consider just from our discussion
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which A, B, C, D, E and F, are more plausible
and clearly they may decide not to include the
ones that are the most ambitious with respect
to the closeness of the pool to the bluff.
This is not relevant to Mr. Fischetti's
points, but just for the general question of
what we all can learn from this, which is to
some degree a preliminary hearing on a
complicated issue because we are talking about
a bluff. Yes, the bluff does collapse because
of the toe, but some -- correct me if I'm
wrong about this -- but there are some bluffs
which do collapse
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
neighbor's point is
from the top.
Yes, they do.
And secondly, I think the
on this, yes, it is not
reasonable necessarily that this person, the
applicant, would want to risk the destruction
of his or her own property by having it fall
into the sea. On the other hand, owners may
be said to be free to take risks where they
themselves are the ones who are at risk, but
as we know in a number of other cases, if the
neighboring bluffs who may also be at risk
when the property owner decides to take a risk
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
with his own property. You know there is a
domino effect (inaudible). So it isn't just
simply the landowner's choice to decide
whether I want to take a risk that my house is
going to fall into the sea or not because
there are going to be neighbors and that just
broadens the point and it isn't just simply a
matter of the homeowner, it's not simply
paternalism on the part of the Town that tells
people that they shouldn't put their own
houses too close to the edge of the bluff.
That's all I have to say.
MR. FISCHETTI: I need to clarify two
points. One, the only time, again, that a
bluff would be unstable on the top or from the
top would be if the bluff is unstable and
that's exactly what I said earlier. If the
bluff is stable and the angle of repose is
below 37 degrees, I don't care what amount of
load you put on the top, it will not cause the
bluff to be unstable. In that case, if I was
excavating that foundation, that house would
be gone by now. It just doesn't happen.
Secondly, again what's being built at the
top -- what happens where property owners may
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affect adjacent property owners and you know
that is the toe of the slope, if it's
protected or not. If somebody builds a
bulkhead here and the neighbor doesn't build a
bulkhead, that's the problem and we have one
this afternoon that's probably close to that,
but there's nothing that building a swimming
pool -- let's get back to the point --
building a swimming pool that's lighter than
the soil at the top of the bluff where it's
being requested and having the equipment the
way we described, which is beyond the area,
will have no affect on this bluff, this
particular bluff. Again, we're talking about
this bluff, which is stable, 31 degrees and 30
feet out. So I'd like to say that this is --
you just have to make your deliberations on
the science and not on fumes here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to hold
up one second. I have to tell you that we had
a case in Mattituck of the same vintage-type
and the Board actually asked the swimming pool
to be weighed and you're absolutely correct.
You findings were -- are absolutely right.
MR. FISCHETTI: Right.
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Because the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
compaction of soil is much heavier.
MR. FISCHETTI: Twice than the soil, so
you're making it light.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to go on to
Mrs. Oliva because she has been not given any
chance to ask anything.
MEMBER OLIVA: I did.
concerned if you had both
pool because the slope just
I was very
the terrace and the
going down even to
have put planting and that along the top of
the bluff and the bluff does look quite
stable.
MR. FISCHETTI:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Yes.
But just to put a pool,
the weight of the pool and a heavy terrace,
with that grade, but now Ural has come back
with alternate plans which I like much better
making the pool smaller, taking away the
terrace. I think you can fit it in that
little niche there and it will work very well.
MR. FISCHETTI: Alright, good.
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the side yard.
MR. FISCHETTI:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Right.
I agree with you and they
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I thank you very
much, Joe.
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, Ural?
MR. TALGAT: I just wanted to say one
other thing. When you do go out there and
take a look at the property, I hope you would
walk along the Sound, please take note of the
trees on the bluff and how big and mature they
are.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. TALGAT:
They are.
They've been living there
for more than 20 years, if not longer, and if
a tree has been living on a bluff for that
period of time, that shows you how stable that
bluff is. Also, please note the toe section
of the bluff and how far or how much grass
there is growing there that's basically level
ground that will also dictate or at least give
you an indication of how
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
stable the bluff is.
Thank you. Two
points in question. Number one is that it
appears that we are going to have to recess
this hearing. Number two, if there is anybody
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who would like to see any of these plans
before speaking for or against this
application, we can take a two or three minute
recess and we can place one set down there so
that you may review them.
I think that, you know, we've taken
significant testimony over these years that
I've been on this Board and when there are new
issues that come to light or A,B,C,D options,
sometimes it helps a little bit to review
those. If it does not help, then we will not
do that. If there is anybody who would like
to see that before we go on to any other
speakers regarding this hearing, again, we
probably will recess this hearing. The Board
has not made any determination based upon
these four or five options.
Yes, Mrs. Ragusa?
MRS. RAGUSA: I guess we submitted a lot
of various options because we're --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. RAGUSA: -- trying to work within
the perimeter and certainly the last thing we
want is, you know, when making such a large
investment, is for our house to collapse or
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our neighbors' house to collapse. I mean,
that's certainly not our goal here and then
when Pat pointed out certain things
immediately we shrunk it and took out the
terrace and anything that would have added
weight and height and, you know, but I guess
sort of out of these options, if it makes it
easier, we just sort of wanted to present as
many things to you that we thought might be
workable, but I guess my question is if it
will help for the next hearing if we obviously
prioritize and limit it down to one or two.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. RAGUSA: You know, I guess my
question is is there any right off the bat
that we should just throw out or try to make
it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I love B.
MRS. RAGUSA: You love B, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute, now I
have to see what you -- hold on.
MRS. MOORE: Would it be helpful if she
told you her preference and then, obviously,
you know, we all know that when you deliberate
you will weigh all of the -- balance all the
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equities and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of the Board.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
can tell you that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
I'm only one member
Exactly.
I'm not fond of that, I
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You see here's the
thing. Here's the problem that you have
because everybody needs to go back to the site
and look at it. Not only that, you have
neighbors that have questions so they should
all look at it. Now, let me just reflect upon
what you said. Having had a relative that had
a piece of property similar to yours all these
years and the ability of enjoying this
magnificent waterfront and magnificent water
view, okay, water runoff is a great concern.
Not only to the Code, but to this Board and
how neighbors react and you could end of
having not a very good neighbor if water keeps
on going on their property. So what Mr.
Talgat came up with is a very interesting
proposal in reference to keeping the water on
your property and so on and so forth. So I
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mean these are all things that are taken into
consideration regarding this hearing. So I,
you know, there are many factors and many
variables that we have here and we need to
pick and choose those factors that we feel are
the best and that we can agree to in a
democratic way.
MRS. RAGUSA: That's also why we wanted
to submit various options, to make it the most
palatable to everyone involved cause I
certainly don't want angry neighbors. I had
that once before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only other
thing you did not submit was any type of
landscaping plan at it's closest point to the
-- Ural's coming up -- from the -- from that
ll-foot or 15-foot side yard.
MR. TALGAT: There's existing evergreen
shrubs along that perimeter. We shall
maintain them, I'm sure if I owned this
property I would want privacy there. I would
put in, again, screening plants.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's what
we need to see.
MR. TALGAT: Okay.
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MRS. RAGUSA: We actually have planted --
MR. TALGAT: That's no problem.
MRS. RAGUSA: -- evergreen trees. You
know, some of them have died already, so we
need to replant them, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We did see those,
yes .
MRS.
RAGUSA: -- we did want to -- it was
winter so we really couldn't plant anything,
but, yes, we were definitely planning to
continue and screen it even more on that
border there.
MOORE: It wouldn't take very much
to add to show the screening.
MRS.
for Ural
MR. TALGAT: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: So we'll
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you for your comments.
get that to you.
Thank you. Thank
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I make a suggestion?
If you really want, given these particular
variations on a theme, probably proposal B and
C are the two most --
MRS. RAGUSA: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- feasible to examine
relative to shrinking --
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MRS. RAGUSA: Okay, so you're basically
talking about starting at the line of the
house not the line of the terrace?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, one at a
time, please.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just finish.
MRS. RAGUSA: Sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Since you asked that
question and you don't clearly want to
continue examining everything --
MRS. RAGUSA: Right. I would hate to put
in -- I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Proposal B and C, I
would think, would be the two that this Board
would be the most likely to contemplate.
MRS. RAGUSA: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In addition to that
specific site plan, more information would be
valuable.
MRS.
RAGUSA: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to see a site
section, you know, north, south, east, and
west to understand precisely the elevation of
the retaining wall, the gradient slope, the
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elevation at grade of the pool, what's sloping
down toward the bluff so we really can, for
somebody who's not familiar with reading a
plan, can actually see the potential runoff.
You know, it's actually more difficult given
topo information to really understand the
actual slope. If you were so inclined,
indicating the repose of the bluff, you know,
taking it all the way down to the toe as a
section from the back of the house, let's say
the elevation of the house.
The other possibility is to consider what
Mr. Goehringer intimated at earlier on, which
is to reduce by whatever is feasible, three
feet is narrow given those terrace steps, but
if you can even reduce those steps perhaps a
foot or so, make them four feet, that's a
fairly gracious dimension. It would, you
know, we're talking about tweaking the plans.
So whatever landscaping information, since you
have the time, perhaps you could spend your
energy concentrated on that kind of detail.
MR. TALGAT: I'd like to add, I think the
most important two lines that are relevant to
this project is how the pool is closest to the
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bluff and how close it is to the property
line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, um-hmm.
MR. TALGAT: I can pull those steps back,
I can pull them forward. That's minor
compared to the most important items and I
will definitely take that notion of bringing
it closer and it also is the size of the pool
becomes a little bit
know we're trying to
here.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
smaller or bigger and I
accommodate everyone
Well, one proposal does
not require a side yard variance another
proposal does, so --
MR. TALGAT: Right. Here's a question to
the Board. I talked this with Pat. I have to
do calculations of the property. My first
calculations included the entire bluff in
terms of lot coverage. My second calculations
included only the area that's from the bluff
back to the road. Now, if we take a look at
those lot coverage calculations and we are
only looking at from the bluff back, given
that respect to side yards, would then the
side yard for less than 20,000 square feet, I
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don't know what that is, but wouldn't that
diminish the side yard for that piece of
property?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're saying the
building envelope --
MRS. MOORE: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he's saying the
entire piece, Ural.
MR. TALGAT: Even though the calculation
of the lot coverage was made for from the
bluff back to the road?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, lot coverage is
the entire lot.
MR. TALGAT: No, no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's now been
changed to the building envelope. It's the
buildable land.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, there -- yeah, there
is a unique feature of our Code revision which
eliminated --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: -- no,
Right, sorry.
it's okay and this is
for the record. It eliminated lot area from
your overall calculation just as to lot
coverage and also applying accessory setback
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structures, but what has happened is you've
shrunk the area, but not applied the same
nonconforming side dimensional to all your
setbacks. So we are facing that that is a
problem with the Code and I'm hoping that
someday in the near future you can persuade
the Town Board to do some tweaking of that
issue because what we're doing, what we're
facing is dealing with smaller lot coverages
on properties that have been reduced, in a
sense, on the size, but still applying the
setbacks that are applicable to lots that are
significantly larger.
So it's forcing us to ask for variances
to this Board for setbacks that ordinarily it
wouldn't make sense that you'd have to apply.
So that's -- unfortunately, we put it here
because it would -- we would be conforming if
we met the size areas
buildable area.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that we have as
I think the bottom line
is, and we should move on, is the simple goal
which is the least environmental impact
possible.
MR. TALGAT: Yes.
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should have
the smaller
in there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And should setting it
back a little more from the bluff be the
better way to go in terms of drainage plan,
than a side yard variance of 11 feet as
opposed to 15 feet is a very reasonable thing,
provided we understand the consequences of the
drainage on the side yard. So that's why I
suggest those two strategies are beneficial to
look at plans B and C in that each propose
something slightly different.
MRS. MOORE: That's not a new plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is of the large one
of the ones he submitted.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that's larger? Oh, I'm
sorry, yes. That's actually --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think if the office
the larger size and we all have
size (inaudible) dimensions drawn
MRS. MOORE: Please do. Good, keep it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's adequate. I
don't need the big one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to
continue, please, and we don't want to stop
anybody who from speaking or curtail it in
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that particular manner; however, we'd like to
move to anyone that would like to speak for or
against this hearing.
Sir? State your name.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: {Inaudible)
Butterfield, 168 Laurel Avenue, Northport.
I'm an attorney representing the contiguous
property owners Mr. and Mrs. Carnavalie, C-A-
R-N-A-V-A-L- I-E.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that mike closer to your,
Can you just pull
sir?
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: We would like an
opportunity to see all of the proposals that
have now been proposed to the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Fine.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: And, at the outset, I'd
like to offer a copy of the decision where
this Board denied an application regarding I
believe it was 1900 Hyatt and there the
variance was 25 percent and the variance on
this one is 75 percent. So there's clear
indication that this Board took into
consideration the protection, conservative,
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perhaps, but the protection of the bluff and
all of the crystal bailing that might be
available on a hearing never can be
substituted for what might occur in the
future. So we would like the opportunity of
getting copies of all of those plans and I
would also draw your attention to the comments
by the County of Suffolk Soil and Water
Conservation District, which is an exhibit in
your file. It's interesting because it does
talk about the potential of eroding of that
slope vis a vie the vegetation that is there
and we haven't experienced a storm on Long
Island of great consequences in quite a few
years and we don't know what might occur as a
result.
It seems to me that the front yard is a
possible alternative where we don't have to
crystal ball anymore and the front yard as I
understand your Code is 50 feet. To that
extent, I would like to see where the
sanitation facilities are located in the front
yard to see if on the westerly side of the
front yard the pool could be located and that
was a suggestion of this Board on the decision
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that was made by this Board seven years ago.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask
you for your business card before you leave?
I just want to ask you for it now because if
we have business back and forth we'll need it.
Thank you.
MRS. MOORE:
papers (inaudible)
BOARD ASST.:
I'd be happy to send you the
as well.
That would be great, yes.
It would help speed it up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry to hold
you up, but you think of these things and then
you leave and I didn't get it from you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Generally, I carry
cards of other folks. Here it is, I use mine
for making notes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you give
counsel one? I thank you, sir. I apologize
for stopping you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Again, we are concerned
because we are the next door neighbor that
would be environmentally,
affected.
MEMBER SIMON: Is it
MR. BUTTERFIELD: To
if you will, most
east or west?
the east and to that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
extent we would like copies, readable copies,
I guess the normal size, how it's obtainable
I'll find out from your offices. I'd also
like a transcript of the engineer's testimony.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BUTTERFIELD: Thank you very much. I
don't know when the hearing would be
scheduled, but hopefully enough time so that
the alternative projects can be analyzed so
that we can make
each one of them.
MRS. MOORE:
of our stuff.
stuff here. Sorry.
cogent coraments in regard to
I think you're taking some
I'm sorry, we left a lot of
MR. BUTTERFIELD:
appreciate your time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
sir?
MR. TOEDTER:
Thank you very much, I
Okay,
we'll -- yes,
William Toedter, T-O-E-D-T-
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. TOEDTER: Hi. I see you've received
the letter and I appreciate you reading it and
addressing some of the issues. The only thing
I'll add to that here is that science is a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
wonderful thing, but it's not etched in stone.
I stand before you being a resident of this
property for 49 years and can tell you that
our bluff, no matter how stable, is eroding
and that without the additional pressures of a
swimming pool or other structures, the
properties on either side of us because of
clearing trees and overhanging leaves and
added rainfall we now have ravines going
through our property. Now, hopefully, that
won't happen in this case, but again I invite
the Board to come down to our property. I'd
be happy to meet them there show them both
what's happening along the bluff here and to
the east of our property because I have been
witness to it for 49 years and it's a concern
of ours because, as the gentleman addressed,
if the issue is the toe and the stability of
the bluff rests upon that area, there's
nothing being done for that.
So the next large storm that does come in
if it does affect the erosion of the bluff we
might have a swimming pool coming down the
bluff at some point and all of the sudden you
start adding all of those factors in and those
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
are the things that we also ask you to
consider because some of these are
likelihoods, some of these are possibilities
and it does affect each and every one of us
along the bluff.
to show you what
the years and to
So I offer that opportunity
I've seen and learned over
show you in terms of
actuality versus hypothesis.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The problem we have
is we really can't meet with anymore than two
persons at a time. So do you --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's
and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
alright you can go
Do you want to meet
with this gentleman at this time?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think we should do
that, not taking up public hearing time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You could go
together as long as you didn't discuss the
merits of the application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. TOEDTER: If the stairs on the, what
was the Wertz property, the Ragusa property
isn't stable, you're free to use ours any time
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
to go up and down so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
neighbor to the --
MR. TOEDTER:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER OLIVA:
west.
MR. TOEDTER:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
You're the
We're two lots to the west.
The west.
You're two lots to the
Correct.
Okay, thank you.
I would just ask that
if you
are going to go as a group and meet with him
that you give us the opportunity to be there,
whether it's myself or Joe Fischetti or Mrs.
Ragusa so that we hear what his points are
since really all points should be put on the
record so that we can address them. I'm
always a little bit leery about sidebar, ex
parte communications like that because it
doesn't give us the opportunity to respond.
think he's heard from our testimony and our
experts in fairness.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I will say that
that's certainly a way of dealing with it.
Also, I don't think the Board should have
substantive conversations with the neighbor.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
I mean you can allow them onto your property
with permission,
any substantive
merits.
MR. TOEDTER:
sorry. One other
when we did have problems with the
I don't think there should be
conversations about the
One other thing,
thing I'll add to
you know,
that is
(inaudible)
and the 1900 issues and the DEC and the Bay
Constables were at the properties, one of the
things that they always said to us is that you
know even though they've cut the trees or
they've done things, we don't have a record of
what was here before.
MEMBER OLIVA: True.
MR. TOEDTER: Okay, you don't have a
record of what has happened over the last
five, seven, ten years. Ail I'm doing is
offering you a firsthand person who lives
there to give you that
have.
One of the things
record that you don't
that I've suggested to
this Town for many years and I think it's
important for issues like this is that, you
know, when someone is selling and transferring
a property in one of these sensitive issues
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
part of the recommendation would be to add a
$20.00 fee for someone to go and take pictures
so you do have a record of what's standing
there now. So that when building occurs and
trees are removed and large machinery comes on
and changes the configuration at least you
have an idea of what happened before and ten,
twenty years from now you'll have that record,
but you don't have that right now. So that's
all I'm trying to offer. I'm not trying to
sway anyone except to tell you because most of
the people here are fairly new to the area and
I've had the opportunity to be there for a
long time, this is what's been there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. TOEDTER: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion adjourning the
hearing until 1:15 p.m. on May 29.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6136 Frank and
Antoinette Notaro
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15, based on the Building Inspector's
January 22, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning the proposed location of a swimming
pool at the side yard deck with hot tub
addition and partly in the code-permitted rear
yard. Location of Property: 625 Calves Neck
Road, Southold; CTM 63-7-30.1."
We are ready for you, sir.
MR. NOTARO: My name is Frank Notaro.
I'm representing my wife, Antoinette Notaro,
in this request for this pool. We had gone
before the Trustees originally had shown the
proposed pool at 52 foot from the high-wafer
mark and they requested that we move it
landward back towards the house to 56 feet,
which we did, which actually tucked it in
closer to the deck that I've built on the
house. They felt that the land was stable
enough for it. They did refer to it as a
bluff, which it really isn't theoretically a
bluff because our neighbor has no bluff and
our neighbor on the other side has no bluff.
If I can answer any other questions,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
please. Betsy Graseck took my site survey, by
the way when she left before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright.
MR. NOTARO: I know it by heart.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I was hard pressed
to figure out what side yard we were talking
out, but now setting it further I realize it's
just a small little gap between -- because you
built your hot tub --
MR. NOTARO: Right, the hot tub is on
that other deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and it's attached to
the house it, therefore, changes the creek
side of the elevation and creates this small
little gap that is the side yard. As far as
I'm concerned, I have no questions and this is
of no consequences whatsoever environmentally,
visually or any other way. So now that I
understand why the need for a side yard
variance, I have no questions.
MR. NOTARO: As the other folks said, it
was an ongoing dispute about the pool. I'm a
boater, I nearly drowned when I was a child in
the water. I like the water, but I like boat
-- but be that as it may, my wife is a swimmer
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
so she's requesting
already have the dock.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
MR. NOTARO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
looked fine to me.
the dock -- the pool. We
I have no questions.
Okay.
I have no questions. It
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only question I
have is the proverbial one and that is you
have no intentions of enclosing this at any
time?
MR. NOTARO: The pool?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. NOTARO: Absolutely not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We'd have a
real -- Is there anybody else who would like
to speak for or against this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving --
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6141 Richard and
Pamela Frerking
MEMBER SIMON:
"This is a request for a Special
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Exception under Southold Town Zoning Code
Article III, Section 280-13B(14), sub-sections
a-d. The Applicant/Owner proposes a Bed and
Breakfast accessory use in their residence,
incidental to their occupancy as a single-
family dwelling use, with up to three guest
bedrooms for lodging and serving of breakfast
to not more than ten (10) casual, transient
roomers. Location of Property: 235 Lilac
Lane, Cutchogue; Lot 117 on the Map of Nassau
Farms; CTM 104-1-20."
Now, it's my understanding that you're
applying for the right to have up to three
bedrooms, but the current plan is for only two
of them for that purpose; is that correct?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name for the record, sir.
MR. FRERKING: Hi, my name is Richard
Frerking, 235 Lilac Lane in Cutchogue.
Yes. The intention is to rent out only
two of the bedrooms. The two bedrooms are on
the upper level. Each has its own bath.
At the lower level there are two bedrooms
there as well, but it's a shared bath
situation so that would be strictly for myself
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
and those rooms would not be available for
use.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, I know there's a list
of requirements (inaudible) of various kinds
for doing this and this one has to do with the
agencies other than the Zoning Board as far as
the particular rules, but there may be other
members of the Board who would like to ask
more specific questions regarding egress and
matters of that sort. So I defer to my
colleagues.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I had the pleasure of
getting a tour of your lovely home and
certainly the scale of use, the intensity of
use for two of the bedrooms, which require
literally no change whatsoever to the interior
or exterior of your house would be quite
small. I do have, as I think we talked about
a little bit when I asked you about your
parking situation, a request after thinking
about it. Your proposal calls for four
parking spaces on the property and from my
observations on site the couple of spaces that
you're thinking about putting in or that
really are already there in the front are
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
extremely tight and would require backing out
and you mentioned the possibility of actually
putting down a more defined driveway toward
your garage with a turnaround space so that
people could not back out onto Lilac Lane,
even though it's a small private right of way
with not much use, it still does have safety
consequences and impacts. With that in mind,
would you be willing to provide, on your site
plan it's very specific proposal for the
driveway, the width of that driveway and where
cars could actually be parked in your rear
yard and not along the front.
MR. FRERKING: Okay, that's no problem.
I can provide that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I think that
would be helpful because we are always as soon
as more than a single family begins to use a
property then there are other issues that get
kicked in about safety and certainly being
able to have more cars safely enter and exit a
property is very important to us.
MR. FRERKING: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, I had the privilege
of visiting your home yesterday, which is
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
lovely.
MR. FRERKING:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Thank you.
I especially like the
glass room downstairs.
MR. FRERKING: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's just beautiful. I
would echo Leslie's concern about the parking
and we also mentioned about the ladders from
the windows and --
MR. FRERKING: Okay. Yes, I did some
research.
MEMBER OLIVA: -- you will check with the
Building Department about the Exit signs and,
otherwise, I think you should do very well.
Of course, we did mention the road with the
ruts and you did say that you would be happy
to contribute, but your neighbors do not want
to contribute to taking the ruts out of the
road.
MR. FRERKING:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. FRERKING:
MEMBER OLIVA:
any problems.
Right.
Which is unfortunate.
Yes.
Otherwise I don't have
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted you
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
to be aware that we have a definite and
distinct set of standards that we sent over to
the Building Department that they're going to
require you to do,
so far.
MR. FRERKING:
if you have not done them
Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of course is
smoke detectors in each room, which you may
have already done.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, and also carbon
monoxide.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Carbon monoxide,
right.
MR. FRERKING: Yes, I have that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so but they
still have to come in and review that prior to
the actual issuing of the CO for the use.
MR. FRERKING: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So just be aware of
that.
MR. FRERKING: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and we thank
you. Let's see what develops throughout the
hearing and we'll get back to you.
MR. FRERKING: Okay. I did have a couple
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
of points that I'd like to make, if I may?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FRERKING: Number one, that I have no
intention of increasing the size of this Bed
and Breakfast. It will be two rooms.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It will be two
bedrooms?
MR. FRERKING: It will be two bedrooms
and no more. That is my intention. I'm not
looking for full-time work. I retired from
work last year and I'm just looking to
subsidize my oil a little bit now that I'm
retired. So that's the purpose of doing this.
I'm not looking for it to be a seven-day a
week business.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MR. FRERKING: The parking, I will --
there will be no on-street parking necessary.
No major renovations will be required. I'm
only offering breakfast for guests, no other
meals, no barbecues. Nothing like that and I
have no intention of putting in any swimming
pools or anything like that and I will have a
policy of no pets. So I won't be having
barking dogs disturbing the neighbors.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great.
MR. FRERKING: That's all I really have
to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
caution that in future times, if the Board was
so inclined, they could ask the Building
Department to ask you to meet specifications
on that road. You don't live too far into
that road.
MR. FRERKING: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At this particular
time, I don't think we're going to do that,
but it would require you to improve the road
to a better condition to your house, just so
you're aware of that.
MR. FRERKING: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I went down on that
real rainy Saturday and I have to tell you it
is one of the worst I have ever seen. I
really -- I had second thoughts about riding
down to your house, that's why I didn't knock
on the door or anything. It was really --
MR. FRERKING: Yeah, there's that one
spot, there's a high spot in the road in front
of the property to the south of me and that
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
seems to keep
that area.
CHAIRMAN
you.
the water just trapped up in
GOEHRINGER: Right. Okay, thank
Is there anybody else who would like to
say anything?
Anybody like to speak for or against this
application?
Yes, sir. Do you want to use this? He's
vacating you can
MR. DOWLING:
Dowling.
(inaudible).
Hello, my name is Dennis
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. DOWLING: I live at 475 Lilac Lane.
I just wanted to voice a little bit of
opposition. You've seen the condition of that
road. That road, such as it is, is maintained
by the residents. I believe there's 12 houses
on Lilac Lane. Any additional traffic on
there only makes it worse and Tom Sebolski
(sic) is also on Lilac Lane. He has use of a
tractor every now and then and he grades the
road and you know all the -- patch up the
holes in front of our houses, etc., etc., but
I don't feel that a road which is one-lane at
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
points is appropriate for a Bed and Breakfast.
If you notice that road goes all the way
through to Horton, which is dirt out to Pine
Tree. It just doesn't seem the kind of road
that's suitable for any kind of business
enterprise.
I spoke to Mr. Frerking this morning.
He's been a great neighbor, I have no problem
with him. I just, I don't think that inviting
however many more cars down that road is
appropriate or considerate for the other
people who live on that road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just reflect
on that? This law originally went into effect
there were discussions with the Boards in this
Town to indicate that it may not -- it
probably should not go in subdivisions, it
probably should only go on public roads,
meaning the Special Permit for a Bed and
Breakfast use. Okay? Neither were excluded
or included. It's a totally included law,
okay, and it includes everything. We do have
to look at health, safety, and welfare,
however, and all the elements of the Special
Exception criteria and we honestly don't know
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
and not looking at each one of those
individual standards that we go by, if we are
so inclined to deal with it in a health,
safety, and welfare point of view. I offer
that to the Board at this time.
I am the greatest proponent of road
improvements and have been on this Board and
that doesn't mean that the other people are
not, okay, I'm just telling you that I have
always been cognizant of 288 standards, which
is under the standards that we deal with.
MR. DOWLING: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is that
safety and emergency vehicles have to be able
to transverse that road 24/7 twelve months of
the year and that exclusion is a very
difficult one during the winter months as we
had seen it that one day, which did not
include ice, it only included standing water.
MR. DOWLING: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm just throwing
that out.
MR. DOWLING: I'm aware that, you know,
the Town has never adopted that road, as it
were. It was never ceded to the Town in a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
fashion where it was acceptable.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The word is
dedicated.
MR. DOWLING: Having said that, to my
knowledge, most of the people on that -- who
live on that road, will hem and haw a little
bit when it's bad, but after it's graded,
which usually happens three times, four times
a year, it's not that bad. To invite more
traffic onto it, especially on a road which
receives no services from the Town, seems to
me to be, you know, not too appropriate.
Considering also Joan Reddington, who is also
a resident, had circulated a petition of the
residents, I signed it, Sebolski signed it,
well I'm sure she's going to provide you with
it, you know, (Inaudible) I don't know if
you're familiar with the residents down there,
but most of us don't have a problem with the
road, but I think to invite more traffic on
there is just inappropriate and I have the
greatest respect for my neighbor here, but I
just don't believe that a Bed and Breakfast is
appropriate on a road that's not maintained by
the Town, but the Town is going to sanction if
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
you will a business on
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
use. It was never meant
the Special Exception.
MR. DOWLING: Well,
venture, if you will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: You're
it.
It's not a business
to be a business use,
an income generating
We thank you.
certainly right,
just to respond to you. Yes, it does require
a Special Permission and the keyword here is
permission and whether you call it a business
or not isn't really the issue, but the kind of
considerations that you raised are going to be
factors that will have to be considered as
part of the rational basis for deciding or not
deciding to grant the permission. So your
points are relevant.
MR. DOWLING: I thank you for hearing me
and I thank you for the time.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ma'am, would you
kindly submit your name for the record?
MS. REDDINGTON: Hi, my name is Joan
Reddington. I live at 135 Lilac Lane, good
morning. Good afternoon, which -- now you'll
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have to excuse me I'm very nervous and I'm not
very eloquent. This is my first time at such
a hearing, but I'm going to speak from my
heart and hopefully it'll have something. I
do have the petition, unfortunately we're not
able to get enough signatures on it. It's a
(inaudible) and people are seasonal residents
on the road.
I drove out from Manhasset this morning
for this, I too am a seasonal resident,
neighbor out there, but I had been out there
for over 33 years and I too am a very good
neighbor with Richard and I understand where
he's going and what he's trying to do and I
can appreciate that, but I also feel it's
going to have nothing but negative impact on
myself and the other neighbors on the road
because it is a dirt road. We try to do our
best to keep it up. Unfortunately, you went
down it the other day probably after a bad
rain, it is the spring, cold, snow, and when
we do have Mr. Sebolski come by with his
tractor he will grade it out, which is as
says, he does two or three times a
Dennis
year.
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My one concern is it is unpaved. It can
be dangerous with all the additional -- well,
maybe not but with the additional traffic
because of the Bed and Breakfast could be and
these people are not aware that there are
children on the road. It could be a hazard to
the children who live and play on the road.
They take their bikes up and down, they go
fishing, they go back and forth to each
other's yards. My voice is shaking cause I am
nervous and I'm not used to this so please
bear with me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're doing very
well.
MS. REDDINGTON: Thank you, it's not
going to help much, but I'll go on.
This could be an inconvenience, but I
think more that it would have safety impacts
on us. I am concerned for the children. I
have my grandchildren out in the summertime
and I know Dennis' children are a little older
now, but when they were young they used to
come over. I know that Mrs. Boyd has -- her
neighbor next door, I don't know their name on
Sterling, they have young children and they
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cut through the backyard to play with my
neighbor's children. We live on the corner of
Sterling and Lilac so there are children that
do go up and down that road constantly. So
that's my one concern and also just the
increased traffic.
You brought up a good point with the
parking. Now if he does this additional
driveway all the way back and he's going to
have his cars parked in the back, that, to me
only from a selfish point of view, would take
away from what I consider the beauty of that
land, which is seclusion and now I'm going to
have two or three or four extra cars parked
not in the front yard, where it's appropriate
with a driveway, but now in the backyard which
is now going to be turned into possibly an
accessory parking lot. I don't know what
you'd term it because I think it's correct and
again I haven't measured footage, but there's
not that much room in the front to accommodate
the additional parking he proposes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. REDDINGTON: Alright, now I don't
know what I should say except that this has
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nothing to do with my relationship with
Richard. He's been a good neighbor and I get
along very well and whatever the outcome is
we'll all live with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. REDDINGTON: I hope I haven't said
too much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, you did a
wonderful job.
MS. REDDINGTON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6139 - Robert F.
Patricia Friemann
MEMBER OLIVA:
and
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's November 19, 2007 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed partial
demolition of an existing dwelling, and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
proposing new construction for alterations
additions to the dwelling at less than the
code-required minimum of 15
side yard, and less than 75
bulkhead or retaining wall,
shoreline of Little Creek.
and
feet on a single
feet from the
adjacent to the
Location of
Property: 2935 Pine Tree Road, Cutchogue; CTM
63-1-12; Zone District R-40 Low-Density
Residential."
Mr. Herrman, would you like to walk me
through this?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to ask
one question, Mr. Herrman, before we -- we've
had a proliferation of --
MR. HERRMAN: Would you like me to put my
name on the record?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, please do.
MR. HERRMAN: Rob Herrman of EN
Consultants, 1319 North Sea Road, Southampton,
on behalf of the applicants.
Sorry, Gerry, go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We've had a
proliferation of foundation problems with
existing foundations. We need to know
specifically or I need to know specifically if
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this foundation is going to be partially
demolished, totally demolished, any other
being demolished. I'm sure you've
investigated it, you looked at it to your
wonderful capabilities; what's your opinion
regarding that?
MR. HERRMAN: I'm going to duck right
past that question and go right to Mark
Schwartz because you've knocked me right out
of my presentation and I was going to talk
about --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry about
that. I --
MR. HERRMAN: Any questions like that I'm
going to direct to Mark, so I'll let Mark step
up first.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then we'll be right
back to you and we will let the very qualified
Mrs. Oliva grill you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project. Back on March 1st I submitted
to the Zoning Board office a letter stating
what part of the foundation needs to be
reconstructed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
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MR. SCHWARTZ: There is a small part over
the existing sitting room that needs to be
demolished and reworked. The rest of the
foundation will remain and we're also going to
do some excavation where the existing garage
is to create a larger crawl space, but the
foundation of the garage will also remain.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On a percentage
basis, and I'm not asking you at this
iramediate second to calculate it for me, but
what percentage of the foundation do you think
will be safe? You don't have to give it to me
right now, you can give it to me by letter.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I would say it's at
least 75 percent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 75 percent, okay.
Thank you very much. We will then start with
Ms. Oliva and --
MR. HERRMAN: That was an easy way to
start for me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much, Mark.
MR. HERRMAN: Thanks, Mark.
MEMBER OLIVA: Walk me through exactly
what you want to do.
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MR. HERRMAN: Yes. What I'm going to do
is because there are two variances here, I'm
going to treat each variance separately.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERRMAN:
going to speak to,
Okay.
And the first is what I'm
is what I consider the
traditional zoning variance that we're here
for which is the three feet of relief from the
southerly side property line.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. HERRMAN: What is being proposed is a
second-story addition in effect what is going
from the existing product to the new product
is going to become a first story house to a
two-story house and there are some footprint
expansions. One is to the north, which
conforms to zoning. One is to the west toward
the road, which is labeled on the site plan
you're looking it's the two-car garage and mud
room.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. HERRMAN: And then, of course, the
vertical expansion essentially within the
existing footprint with a squaring off, if you
will, on the southeast side, which will just
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be a one-story addition. So if you look at
that, even though we're going up over the
existing first, that little square off in the
front will only be one-story as that
approaches the attached deck.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. HERRMAN: So the relief required is
because the existing footprint of the house is
now 12 feet from the side property line.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. HERRMAN: So even without the
expansion toward the road we would be in front
of you even for the vertical expansion because
we are not meeting the 15-foot setback. So
essentially what are you changing? You're
increasing the elevation of the house with the
addition of the second story and you're
increasing the footprint of the house toward
the road in terms of what's happening on that
south side.
What I would submit to you is that it is
not substantial relief we're requesting
because I want to think about what does --
what is the purpose of that side yard setback
or any side yard setback under Code, what is
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it protecting? Essentially it's protecting
two things, one most immediately is obviously
what is the impact on the adjoining neighbor
and then also more from a community
perspective if you're standing out on Pine
Tree Road you want to make sure you have that
open space between the lots and between the
houses. I would say, and as I explained to
the client, if this were a vacant lot and we
were asking for this relief, we'd really have
no defensible reason to be here, but the point
is the house is where it is unlike some of the
applications I have before the Board and
others have before the Board where we go in
with a complete demolition and the old sellers
sell and the new buyer comes in, knocks
everything down and builds the new house. The
Friemanns have been here for how long? About
60 years so this is, I think probably what
Gerry was getting at a little bit, this is a
genuine expansion to a preexisting, in this
case preexisting nonconforming dwelling.
So we're not getting any closer to the
property line than what is already there and
one thing that makes this request unique in a
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way is that the adjoining property to the
south, if you look at the site plan, is
actually sort of a reverse flag lot. The
house that's immediately to the Friemann south
is really a road-front house that has flag
access to Little Creek.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. HERRMAN: So there is no immediately
adjacent dwelling and the next adjacent
dwelling to the south, which shows on the site
plan is situated similarly to the water and
really angled in that direction. So there's
really no impact even on the neighbor two
doors down.
One thing that the property does or I
should say the project does incorporate is
there is a concrete patio that does exist in
that side yard now and that patio is being
removed as part of this project. So to some
extent we're actually reducing some of the
structural area that is in that required side
yard. So even though it's really a patio on
grade, it is structure adjacent to that side
that we're getting rid of. So I think
generally we're really not changing the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
conditions in any way on that side that we're
creating adverse impact to those neighbors and
again with the removal of the patio we're
actually, I think, doing something beneficial
as part of the project.
The second variance, and Ruth as you know
this is my pet peeve variance, because this is
the variance from the shoreline structure, in
this case the retaining wall where if that
wall did not exist we wouldn't be here. I
think this is a good case study because the
Donlan (sic) residence two doors down, I often
speak when I've spoken to you before and to
the Town Board in theory, here's a real case
where if the Donlans were proposing the exact
same thing, we wouldn't even need to petition
you for approval because they don't have a
shoreline structure, but as you've told me
before, the law is what it is until it changes
so I won't waste too much of your time
complaining about it.
Instead what I'll do is try to convince
you, which I think we've successfully
convinced the Trustees of, which is why
despite the proximity or the continuing
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
proximity of the project from Little Creek the
end result will actually be an improvement in
the environmental condition of the property as
opposed to an adverse impact.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think you're
right to speak about if the neighbor two
houses down if there's no retaining wall
because it does reflect on the character of
the neighborhood. So if you want to talk
about that, you can.
MR. HERRMAN: Right, okay. Thanks. Well
I included it narratively in my application of
pointing out that this is a strange variance
because whether you grant or deny the relief,
you can't really control the character of the
community unless everybody had the same
shoreline structure.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right.
MR. HERRMAN: The other thing that I
think to bear in mind is I think if you look
at the application and just before I talk
about the mitigation, the setbacks are
deceivingly small because in this case this
retaining wall is truly a retaining wall. I
mean this is not a bulkhead out on the water
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that we're calling a retaining wall. So even
though you're talking about a 20-some-odd foot
setback from the wall to the deck and
maintaining what I think is about a 34 or 35-
foot setback to the house, the wetlands
setbacks are closer to 50 or more than 60 feet
from Little Creek. So part of this variance
is also a function of where that retaining
wall is and just, interestingly as an
anecdote, Bob gave me these photos from the
early 60s of when this retaining wall was
actually constructed, when Little Creek was
dredged. So the wall has been there and
awfully long time as well, but I think, and
Gerry mentioned this in a prior application,
you know, when we're talking about the impacts
of these projects and granting these kind of
variances and special exceptions on the
environment what primarily we're talking about
is really runoff is a big issue.
In this case because we're on Little
Creek surface water runoff and also effluent
going into ground water. So this is where the
Friemanns really as we worked through this
agreed to do almost a disproportionate amount
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
of mitigation relative to what they were
building and I hope that's what I can convince
you of. So I'll just take a couple of minutes
to go down that and if you have any questions
I'll answer them.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERRMAN:
Good.
With respect really first
to surface water runoff, one of the things
we're dealing again this is not part of this
application, but we are going to replace the
retaining wall and we're going to raise it 18
inches because right now, as you know, there's
quite a bit of a slope from the house to the
beach.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERRMAN:
we're going to do
out that slope by
Yeah, that concerns me.
Yeah, so one of the things
is we're going to flatten
raising the retaining wall
and backfilling it. So the first thing that
accomplishes is whatever runoff does exist
we're going to decrease the flow rate of that
runoff getting to the creek, which then
indirectly also decreases the volume because
it has that much more time to permeate into
the soil, but really more significantly than
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
that, and I think that the thrust of what
makes this actually a great project is the
fact that we will, the Friemanns are going to
eliminate over 3100 square feet about 10
percent of the lot area of that lawn between
the house and the beach and completely
eliminate all of that lawn and replace it with
a non-turf buffer that's going to be planted
with native vegetation. Bob is related to
Sandy Friemann who is going to help him with a
Plantings Plan, one of the conditions of the
Trustees' permit was that before -- I think at
the point when the construction would end
before we would actually go into
implementation of the plan they're going to
have to come up with a plantings plan, but
what has been stipulated and guaranteed is
that that lawn will be removed and replaced
with this non-turf buffer.
So, basically, when we come in with the
sand backfill in stead of replacing all of
that with top soil and loam and putting back
a turf lawn where you reintroduce some of the
same problems, it's going to be non-turf
buffer. So not only are you going to decrease
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
the rate of flow to the creek, but now you're
going to have a quantitative decrease in the
amount of runoff because you're going to have
a much larger absorption capacity in this
planting area than you would have with a lawn
and perhaps even more importantly you're going
to have a huge improvement to the quality of
the surface water runoff that's going to
Little Creek because you're going to be
eliminating the fertilizers, fungicides,
pesticides, all the various chemicals that the
Town is concerned about that goes on the turf.
In addition to that, they are going to
install -- this is now required by Code, the
drainage system of drywells. Those
calculations are done on a two-inch rainfall,
so even before we're getting to the benefits
of that non-turf buffer and the raising of the
grade, you're eliminating some of the volume
of runoff that is heading to that part of the
yard anyway through the drywells. Then, of
course, as part of the project which they
wouldn't otherwise do, we're installing an
upgraded sanitary system. It'll be located
farther from the water so setting aside
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
surface water runoff for a second, you're also
going to have now an improvement to the
treatment of effluent that's coming out of the
house through the upgraded sanitary system.
That system has been approved by the Suffolk
County Health Department. The project is out
of the DEC's jurisdiction. We've gotten the
letter of non-jurisdiction based on the
elevations and we did also get a Southold
Trustees' Wetlands Permit and that permit was
granted basically contingent upon all of this
various mitigation.
The Trustees did also require that the
waterfront deck be constructed with non-
treated materials. So the deck that'll be on
that side, again consistent with the rest of
our scheme here is to make sure that we're not
introducing any new contaminants to that area.
By and by, the shed that's located on the
beach is also going to be removed. So that is
-- that was also discussed during the Trustee
process. So that is a preexisting
nonconforming structure sitting in that beach
area and that would also be removed as part of
the project.
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So in conclusion I think what I'm
suggesting is that with respect to the side
yard variance we're really talking about a
variance that isn't changing the condition of
the property and is not creating new or
adverse impacts to either neighboring
properties to the south or to the community as
a view from the road. With respect, again, to
the retaining wall variance, which again, to
me is really a variance from an environmental
law that was embedded in the Zoning Code
before the Town had a legitimate environmental
law, I think we look at what is the mitigation
that's going to come along with the project
that the Friemanns would otherwise not have
any incentive to do and I think that given the
decrease in that slope existing, the proposal
of the drainage system and drywells, and the
removal of that lawn and replacement with a
non-buffer, at the end of the day you actually
get with respect to little Creek and the
environmental conditions of the property
really an overall improvement in the
environmental quality of the site.
MEMBER OLIVA: How high is the deck?
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MR. HERRMAN: I'm sorry?
MEMBER OLIVA: How high is the
what's the elevation of the deck?
MR. HERRMAN: Mark, do you have --
the same as the dwelling, correct?
MEMBER OLIVA: It's the same.
right out from the house onto the
there's stairs leading down --
deck,
it's
You walk
deck and
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERRMAN:
two steps.
140
Yes.
-- it's rather confusing.
Yeah, there's going to be
The deck hits right on the 12 foot
Oh okay.
And there's two steps that
contour.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. HERRMAN:
will lead to a path that will go through the
buffer that will maintain their access and
steps to the beach.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay. As usual Mr.
Herrman always gives an excellent
presentation.
MR. HERRMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: And I do agree with the
non-turf buffer and I think you've done as
as I can see all you can to mitigate any
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runoff into Little Creek. I'm curious, why
was the retaining wall put in there in the
first place cause it's been in there for so
many years and it's (inaudible) beach below
it.
MR. HERRMAN: Well,
correct me if I'm wrong,
it serves -- Bob can
but I think when that
-- wasn't
up on your --
MR. FRIEMANN:
MR. HERRMAN:
sorry. I'll just
some of that spoil actually placed
It was.
-- and this was -- oh, I'm
relay the information. Bob
Friemann is saying and he's the applicant and
again I think what you see in some of those
photos is that these properties here were
actually built up with the dredge spoil in the
early 60s --
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay.
MR. HERRMAN: -- so to prevent that hill
from dumping back down onto the beach area it
is literally being retained at that spot. So
again this really is a retaining wall for the
upland more so than it is, you know, a real
highly engineered bulkhead that's protecting
them from a hurricane.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: Right. That's
interesting. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I just want to
make sure that I understand this correctly.
The existing house setback is 34 feet from the
retaining wall. The proposed addition will
maintain that setback; however, the proposed
deck will be 23 feet to the retaining wall?
MR. HERRMAN: Yeah, that's basically
correct. What I noted in the application is
the existing setback is approximately 34 feet,
so obviously any part that's in line or above
that will stay that close or farther. The
addition that pokes out on the north side,
which again is not a subject of this
application because it meets Code, but that'll
actually be about 36 feet from the retaining
wall. So that setback is a little bit farther
than what's there. So the true encroachment
in terms of decrease in the setback from the
retaining wall is as you said, it's about that
10 or 11 feet that comes out variable on the
waterfront deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's 23 feet, but
it's only 11 feet of the width.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MR. HERRMAN: Correct. Yeah, I think the
Notice of Disapproval says 22 feet.
Unfortunately, when we originally submitted it
and Linda eventually had me correct this, but
the surveyor didn't show a setback to the
retaining wall. So the Building Department
basically measured it off and scaled it back
to 22. When Ehler's computed it
electronically it came out to 23 feet. So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's important
for the record because I was going to say that
there was an inconsistency (inaudible).
MR. HERRMAN: Yes and I meant to mention
that and actually --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
out?
MR. HERRMAN:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
been covered.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
As the survey points
Yes.
Thank you.
It's all
He did a good job.
I have no questions, just
two comments. First of all, I think that Mr.
Friemann is well served by his representative
in this case and also point out that this is
one of those cases where the Zoning Board and
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
the Trustees have overlapping jurisdiction and
it seems clearly a case where it's easy for us
to defer to them since that really is their
bailey wick with regard to how they respond to
information about the retaining wall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question is what
kind of lumber can you use that's not going to
fall apart other than Cedar?
MR. HERRMAN: For which part?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the deck. I
realize you can use the new decking, plastic
decking --
MR. HERRMAN: Your putting in Mahogany,
aren't you Bob? Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Mahogany.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and the
stringers would be Mahogany, too, Mark?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Interesting. Okay,
I have no further questions. Let's see what
develops throughout the hearing. We thank you
for your presentation.
MR. HERRMAN: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
else would like to speak for or against this
application?
We thank you again for your presentation
and we wish you, the Friemanns, the very best
and we will make a decision on or about the
l0th of April, hopefully. We appreciate you
all coming in.
I'll make that a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6134 - Karen Mazzaferro
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ready.
MS. WICKHAM: Good afternoon. Abigail
Wickham, Wickham, Bestler, PO Box 1424,
Mattituck, New York.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
14, based on the Building Inspector's December
17, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed lot (#1) proposed with a lot width at
less than the code-required 150 feet in this
pending three-lot Minor Subdivision, located
at 1450 Horton Lane, Southold; CTM 63-1-12;
Zone District R-40 Low-Density Residential."
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
As I understand it, the three-lot
subdivision has one which is already approved
with a dwelling and attached garage. The
width of the frontage on Horton Lane is 108.49
feet, while the Code requires a minimum
frontage of 150-foot width. There was an
interesting alternative proposal presented
that apparently the Planning Board rejected
and certainly they rejected clustered or open-
space sub-division because the proposed "L" at
the rear of the property was not considered
appropriate for that sort of open-space
preservation. Other than that, let's see what
it is you have to --
MS. WICKHAM: Thank you.
First of all, we have several things that
are odd about this property, which is why
we're here. The first is the shape with that
"L" appendage at the back. The second is that
the existing home, which is a very old home is
located on the extreme northerly corner of the
frontage and actually the front -- the side
yard that would be proposed to the south of
the house is quite ample and if you were to
expand that width to 150 feet you really would
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
have an ungainly side yard.
The second thing I'd like to call the
Board's attention to is the fact that the
property is bordered to the south by one
residence on a similar limited width frontage.
The self-storage property, which is a
commercial usage and to the east by Founders'
Village which is a high density multiple
residential usage.
We've been to the Planning Board for
quite sometime trying different
configurations. The area of the property is
sufficient to support a four-lot subdivision,
but that would have required coming to this
Board for additional variances, which the
applicant decided would be inappropriate. So
she is going with the three-lot subdivision
and a request to your Board for the
insufficient width.
Any questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. I'd like to
continue. Out of curiosity, the three-lot
subdivision, as proposed to the ZBA, which is
on this survey, creates this narrow flag on
lot 2 and a right of way that takes you back
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
to lot 3.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This
proposal?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, that was,
was one of the alternatives. That
is the alternative
well that
alternative
would have avoided the -- this particular
variance, although it might have involved
another variance because it would have made
the southerly part of lot one a front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ah, because of the right
of way?
MS. WICKHAM: Right. That's the other
reason that this proposal has a flag lot for
lot 3 accessing also lot 2.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. WICKHAM: Because if all three lots
were accessed by that one --
MEMBER WEISMAN: This one right of way.
MS. WICKHAM: -- area then we would have
front yard issues and rear yard issues along
the north and south.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. Now I
understand. Just because when I look at the
proportion and the fact that it eliminates the
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
frontage issue, I'm wondering why the Planning
Board did not appear more favorably inclined
toward this configuration, but I --
MS. WICKHAM: Well, I will say originally
they were and then they referred it to the
Town Engineer and I think they were concerned
about the bends in the road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The road for drainage.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, for drainage and
mobility of the traffic and putting --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, (inaudible)
equipment I suppose.
MS. WICKHAM: -- a roadway next to the
other -- around the other house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other house that's
MS. WICKHAM: The southerly -- the house
to the south.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Okay.
MS. WICKHAM: So there were reasons on
both sides.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's really what I
wanted clarification on. I have to write the
finding on this so I wanted to understand
fully what the -- why the alternative was not
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
considered a viable one.
anything else.
No, I think you covered questions
had. Let's see what happens.
TOWN ATTORNEY:
Let's see if there's
that I
You're fine on all
ASST.
of this?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
the width issue?
MS. WICKHAM:
than ample.
It's really just
Oh yeah, the yield is more
MEMBER WEISMAN: They could have done
four, but again with the irregular, by rights,
they've got acreage, but it's basically the
configuration creates very irregular shapes.
MS. WICKHAM; I'm very happy to point out
that the Planning Board did issue a letter,
which you have, saying they were in favor of
the variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
Yes.
First of all, the fact
that the Planning Board has given us a letter
is (inaudible). Sometimes the Planning Board
has sent a letter where they're not very happy
about it and they say well if you guys
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
decided, I guess we'll have to. This is a
little bit more positive, as I understand it.
This is not a pro forma recommendation on
their part. We take it very seriously partly
nonetheless and partly because of it.
Just one question I have and I don't have
questions about this except to puzzle, I
understand that the reason for the variance
application has to do with the 108-foot
frontage along Horton's Lane. What is the
frontage for properties 2 and 3?
MS. WICKHAM:
MEMBER SIMON:
is that the idea?
MS. WICKHAM:
line.
MEMBER SIMON:
building line.
MS. WICKHAM:
MEMBER SIMON:
The building line.
Is the (inaudible)
Yes, it's the building
It's -- oh, it's the
I'm sorry,
The width.
it's the width.
Okay, so that
exempt;
then the flagpoles doesn't really matter?
MS. WICKHAM: No, it would be for lot
three. It's quite a wide lot, actually.
MEMBER SIMON: This is just for my
understanding.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MS. WICKHAM:
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. WICKHAM:
And we have met --
One at a time.
Thank you.
We have met with the
Building Department, Mr. Verity, on this map
and he's okay with it.
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: I don't have any
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you
it's a very interesting subdivision. It'll
work.
MS. WICKHAM: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else that would like to speak for or against
this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving decision until
I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6143 - Thomas and Paulette Giese
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-122, based on the Building Inspector's
January 18, 2008 Notice of Disapproval and ZBA
Code Interpretation #5039 (Walz) concerning
proposed addition and alterations to an
existing single-family dwelling maintaining
the existing front yard setback, for the
reason that the new construction will increase
the degree of setback nonconformance when
located less than 50 feet from the front yard
line, at 90 Sterling Road, Cutchogue; CTM 104-
4-4.1."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
here would like to speak regarding this
hearing?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
adjourning the hearing until April 24t~ at
11:30 a.m.
MEMBER WEI SMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6144 - Joanne and John Gouveia
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
124, based on the Building Inspector's Notice
of Disapproval concerning proposed addition
and alternations to the existing single-family
dwelling, which new construction will result
in a setback at less than the code-required 35
feet from the front yard lot line and increase
in lot coverage exceeding the code limitation
of 20%, at 55405 County Road 48 (a/k/a North
Road), Southold; CTM 44-1-11."
MS. GOUVEIA: Joanne Gouveia. Thank you.
We just have an issue with the stairs are
very steep in the front of the house and what
happens is our moms are visiting and they're
in their 80s and they can't get out of the
house with their walkers. So what we're
trying to is put a platform one step down a
platform riser and step and down so they can
step out with their walkers. It's just very
steep. I've actually fallen off the steps
myself, but we'd like to do that and we
realize that we could have done the 5 by 6
width, but the stairs are already 8 feet wide
and the way the house is built it's hard to do
that with having your stairs stick out on
either side. So we really didn't want to do
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
that. We wanted to make it nice, we wanted to
make it pretty, and that's the whole idea.
On top we thought we'd put a pretty arbor
and make it really cute, and a rail. That's
all we really wanted to do, but I had to ask.
MEMBER OLIVA: Sounds good to me.
MS. GOUVEIA: It's already a whole lot of
lot coverage over there, but it's really not.
MEMBER OLIVA: Well you have a tiny lot.
MS. GOUVEIA: It's adorable, but we need
to get our moms here.
MEMBER OLIVA: Of course you do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just for the record, not
only is this an issue of aesthetics, but it's
really an issue of safety. The landing that
you would walk in and out of the door simply
doesn't have enough depth to be able to open
the door without standing on the steps,
basically. So it's simply to deepen that for
safety reasons and simply to create a slightly
more improved visual appearance. So I have no
problems with it at all. I think it's very
minor and reasonable request that will speak
to public safety.
MS. GOUVEIA:
Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question where
I'm asking for clarification about the lot
coverage. The application says 46.4
percentage. The previous variance specified
that there was a condition on the granting of
the previous variance to 32.7 percent. So I
don't quite understand what has happened after
that and up to -- between the earlier variance
and --
MS. GOUVEIA: Oh, oh. Okay. You
probably didn't know that a few years ago we
had asked for another variance and they had
squared off the back of our house.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. GOUVEIA: That's all been done
already and you've now got a new survey
because of the bulkhead issues over there and
they redrew everything with the new lot
coverage and put the whole thing on there.
MEMBER SIMON: So you're saying it's a
matter of lot coverage is now measured
differently than the way it used to be?
MS. GOUVEIA: No, no, no. I don't think
so. I just think that from maybe what you had
originally a few years ago it's been increased
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
because of the extension.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Thank you. I just
I may be missing a piece of paper that I will
look at later on. I read the condition before
about the 32.7 percent and I didn't --
BOARD ASST.: I believe that it's
possible that the lot coverage calculation is
also changed for the lot.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I thought. It
is that it depends on what is included, that's
why there's a change.
BOARD ASST.: That's why you have a
larger percentage now than what you had four
years ago.
MS. GOUVEIA: That's correct.
BOARD ASST.: You didn't build anything.
MS. GOUVEIA: Oh, no, no, no.
MEMBER SIMON: It's not really that
you're covering 30 percent --
UNIDENTIFIED: One at a time.
MEMBER SIMON: Sorry. It's simply not
true that you're increasing the lot coverage
by some 30 percent. That's what it looks like
if you're comparing 32 percent to 46 percent.
The change is in the numbers, not in the land.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: We had a different law four
years ago than we do now.
Ms. GOUVEIA: Linda, I didn't have a clue
and if you didn't help me with this I wouldn't
be here. I appreciate it.
BOARD ASST.: You're doing fine.
MS. GOUVEIA: I appreciate it. I did do
the application myself and I wasn't really,
you know, we're doing such a little thing and
I didn't know I was going to have to have a
variance right away. Damon, I think his name
is, over at Building Department showed me a
picture and he thought it matches my house
really, really cute and I think it's going to
turn out really good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it really
doesn't have a roof, it's a trellis over the
steps?
MS. GOUVEIA: Yeah. Yeah, the idea that
I have is really cute and it solves the issues
because of our house and I explained to Leslie
when she was over my house the other day that
it's a trellis.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Fine.
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MS. GOUVEIA: It's (inaudible) my front
door and I like that {inaudible) and when we
decided to do that and we didn't want to put a
roof on it because it would mess up our
roofline there and that's an original roofline
from the original (inaudible) house and we
just discovered that our house
house, very much original.
MEMBER OLIVA: Really?
MS. GOUVEIA: And it will
is a catalog
be -- it was
shipped from Dover, Massachusetts. I have all
my original tags in my basement showing who it
was shipped to and who put it up and it's the
coolest thing and we're working on getting it
together for the Massachusetts Historical
Society. That was very interesting and
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's great.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MS. GOUVEIA:
I' m done.
MEMBER OLIVA:
That sounds like fun.
That's work. That's it.
I think it's great.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else would like to speak for or against this
application?
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Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
So moved.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6126 - David Fisher
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Mark.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, I'm the
architect on the project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. SCHWARTZ: This
Thank you.
is really the exact
same project we had spoke about on the last
month.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. SCHWARTZ: There was an error on the
survey. We had the surveyor adjust it to show
what's in front of you now. The front setback
is now 26 and the rear is approximately 23.6
and the rest of the project really is exactly
the same.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Just so there's
no inconsistency, I'm sure the survey is
accurate, but there's a letter that we have
here submitted to the Board on 3/3/08 from
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
you, Mark, that says on behalf of the
applicant that the rear yard setback to the
north is currently 31.2 feet and that it's
proposed at 23.3 feet, but your survey says
23.6 feet and so does the amended notice. So
I'm going to make, just let the record reflect
that inconsistency and it is 23.6 feet as per
the survey.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the notice.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Alright, so now I
think all of our questions were answered at
the previous hearing. This is just a matter
of updating for accuracy's sake and I just
want to reiterate that the applicant is taking
great pains to do two things. One, to respect
the original tenants of Gardners' Bay Estate,
which had to do essentially with a cottage
environment of one-story bungalow-type houses,
and also sensitively attempting to avoid
casting large shadows on one of the neighbors
to the south. The issue, I think, of the
merger of the lots was handled at the last
hearing and so on, and the setbacks.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
I did take my application to (inaudible)
for the few colored photographs just so that
would have the alignment of the other front
yard setbacks that are existing and the rear
yard setbacks and side yards and so on. So
now that we have completely accurate
information we can go ahead and write an
accurate determination.
I don't have any further questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like
this application?
MEMBER SIMON:
to speak for or against
Can we comment?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
comment.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. I assume
your answers to my questions at the
Certainly you can
I take
first part
of the hearing are still valid and that's
fine. I'd just make an observation, this kind
of case where the applicant is taking account
of the neighbors by willingly not building a
house that will tower over the other houses is
almost kind of a Walz decision in verse. I
think that's kind of interesting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In reverse.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Michael.
MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Nicely put,
Thank you.
I just think it's going to
be a nice improvement in the neighborhood.
You've really done a nice job.
MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) from the
Fishers, so they're the ones to credit.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you for
coming in with that information. We thank you
for finding it and we'll ask the same
question. Is there anybody else?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
alter.
MEMBER OLIVA:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
**********************************************
HEARING #6129 - Lia Polites and
Kevin Ferro
MEMBER SIMON:
"Location of Property: 300 Jackson
Street, New Suffolk; CTM 117-10-2. The
Applicants propose renovations/alterations,
and expansion of the existing accessory
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cottage building and in this Appeal requesting
the following:
1. Reversal of the Building Inspector's
November 8, 2007 Notice of Disapproval which
states that the accessory cottage use is
nonconforming and constitutes a second
dwelling unit, citing Section 280-121A, which
provision states: Such nonconforming use of
buildings ... may be continued indefinitely,
except that such building or use (A) shall not
be enlarged, altered, extended reconstructed
or restored or placed on a different portion
of the lot or parcel of land occupied by
increased by any means whatsoever, and Notice
of Disapproval citing Section 100-3lA, which
provision states: "In A-C, R80 Districts, no
building or premises shall be used and no
building or part of a building shall be
erected or altered which is arranged, intended
or designed to be used, in whole or in part ,
for any uses except the following:
A. Permitted uses. One-family
detached dwellings, not to exceed one
dwelling on each lot";
2. Interpretation to deal with this
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preexisting residential use in a residential
zone, applying Code Section 280-122,
Nonconforming Buildings with Conforming Uses,
which states:
A. Nothing in this article shall be
deemed to prevent the remodeling,
reconstruction or enlargement of a
nonconforming building containing a
conforming use, provided that such action
does not create any new nonconformance or
increase the degree of nonconformance
with regard to the regulations pertaining
to such buildings;
B. Reconstruction of a damaged
building. (1) A nonconforming building
containing a conforming use which has
been damaged by fire or other causes to
the extent of more than 50% of its fair
value shall not be repaired or rebuilt
unless such building is made
substantially to conform to the height
and yard requirements of the Bulk
Schedule. {2) Application for a permit
to build or restore the damaged portion
of any building damaged or destroyed as
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set forth in Subsection B(1) above shall
be filed within one year of the date of
such damage and shall be accompanied by
plans for reconstruction which, as to
such portion, shall comply with the
requirements set forth above. If such
permit is issued, it shall lapse one year
thereafter unless reconstruction in
accordance with the approved plans has
been initiated;
3. Alternatively, Variances based on the
Building Inspector's November 8, 2007 Notice
of Disapproval under Section 280-121A and
Section 100-3lA, denied for the reasons that
the accessory cottage use is nonconforming and
constitutes a second dwelling unit, and as
such may not be enlarged, altered, extended,
reconstructed, or restored or placed on a
different portion of the lot...nor shall any
external evidence of such use be increased by
any means whatsoever as a second dwelling
unit."
Now this is the longest Disapproval
Notice and it could be the longest hearing.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Maybe I can help.
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MEMBER SIMON: Please.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Maybe
be the longest hearing ever,
MEMBER SIMON: Anything
(inaudible).
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I
then it won't
I can't promise.
you can
can't promise
that, but the way this Board has been dealing
with second dwellings, accessory dwellings
such as this on one single lot is like this.
Obviously we have a Code right now that only
allows one dwelling per lot; however, where
they are preexisting we have been advised by
the Court, the Appellate Division of the Court
System, that the second dwelling, a
preexisting nonconforming second dwelling is
not to be considered a nonconforming use
because its use is conforming as residential.
It is to be considered a nonconforming
building, therefore, you can't as a right --
you can't expand that building because it, by
its nature, is already nonconforming. With a
variance you can expand or increase that
nonconformance and it becomes in essence a run
of the mill Walz variance and you'll have to
consider various factors; whether you think
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inconsideration of the piece of property, the
neighborhood, whether the expansion or the
alteration or the increase of that
nonconformance is acceptable.
A potentially sidetracking issue, which I
think is a little bit of a red herring, is the
issue if that's an accessory seasonal cottage.
Our current Code doesn't really grant any CO
that is for seasonal use only or restrict the
seasonality of use. So it's -- they're adding
heat and/or insulation to it is not much --
shouldn't be treated much different than
adding onto the size of it or the intensity.
If you think that the -- you know, I can
imagine circumstances where a parcel is so
small or something is so close to a neighbor
that making it from seasonal to year round
might be unacceptable and you might not want
to grant a variance in that instance. It's up
to you to determine whether that's true or not
here, but legally it makes no difference.
It's really just whether they meet the
variance criteria.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Well,
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I would like to call
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
on the representative of the applicants.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Good afternoon.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name, please.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Francis Yakabowski for
Lia Polites. My office is at 456 Griffing
Avenue, Riverhead, New York.
I know this Board has had a long day
already and I'm not going to belabor.
I listened carefully, of course, to your
counsel's thoughts and suggestions and I for
the most part agree with his assessment. The
Court decisions relating to your Code, in
particular, nonconforming structures with
conforming uses is, I believe, the consistent
statute to apply here. The Building
Department applied the -- both portions of the
Code dealing with or interpreting that you
just simply can't have a second dwelling on a
site and that's that.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: And of course these are
preexisting structures and we believe that
under our existing Code we're entitled to make
application for and hopefully receive approval
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to bring the structure to Code, make it more
in conformity, not less in conformity because
we're going to add a basement, heat, upgrade
all systems and this on a parcel which is 1-
3/4 acres. It's got a lovely home in the
front which is -- or up front on the water and
we're going to -- and I know you're familiar
with the site or I believe you are -- the
garage that's there now, as you know, is right
up against practically this structure, this
house, that garage is going to be moved to an
approved location at the rear of the lot
closer to Jackson Road. The septic system
that exists is underneath the floor of the
garage that, of course, is going to be, as you
can see, abandoned and an entirely new system
installed, which we've submitted the plans to
you regarding that and that is before the
Suffolk County Department of Health now.
So that's our project. If anyone has any
questions, in addition to myself, I have our
architect here as well as Mr. Polites. Mrs.
Polites is recuperating from some surgery.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to ask
questions. This is interesting and I think
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our counsel's clarification is also very
helpful. If I'm right about this and I'm
asking you, too, because this application does
have some implications even if it doesn't
refer to the law itself. In practice there
has been preexisting second dwelling units on
the property, whether seasonal or not, and
they are nonconforming and if they're already
being used that way then the nonconforming
use. We have not until now, as far as I know,
granted permission for people to make
extensive renovations on such houses. That
may be a bad idea that we haven't done so, I'm
saying to you this could be an important
decision because there are lots of, not lots,
but there are a number of secondary dwellings
on properties which are in the town and
continue. Sometimes the Board is stumped
because of this rule that is cited, 121, that
says that they can't alter them, they can just
leave them as they are, but you'd think they
should be able to do that to any lot.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: You see, I think, Mr.
Simon, and you know I argued long and hard
with your Building folks before getting sent
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here and I think that the Building Department
folks don't pay enough heed to the provision
of the Code pertaining to nonconforming
structures with conforming uses. They get
lost in the idea that, hey, this is Southold
it's a residential zone.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: You're only allowed one
house and they don't deal with what is and
that is that we have two preexisting dwellings
on a lot, which is large by any standard, this
is an R-40 zone, and this is nearly 1-3/4
acres, and they get tied up with the thought
that there's only one house on one lot and no,
you can't do anything with that second home,
which is clearly not what your legislative
body says in our Code. You can reconstruct,
renovate, enlarge, and this is the section
that we're looking to have you deal with.
MEMBER SIMON: You may be right, what I'm
just saying is this would in fact have
considerable significance within this town
because we have lots and lots of applications
that we've seen for people who had inhabited
second buildings and they wanted to expand
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them or have them acknowledged. What you may
want to say, maybe your argument is this is
right that this should be grandfathering all
second buildings on properties that have been
occupied.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: No, I don't know that
you're doing that. You've got to look at the
fact that this is a preexisting, predate
zoning. In other words, it didn't pop on the
parcel subsequent to the Code. So, you know,
and again if you take a look and I know and
I'm not trying to teach, but the general idea
whenever you hear the word, especial at the
Board of Appeals, nonconformity, you're going,
aha, this is something we want to eliminate,
but really if you take a look at the Code
section I'm referring to and that counsel has
referred to, the legislative body doesn't take
that position with a nonconforming structure
with a conforming use. They say look folks
it's just a nonconforming structure. You can
fix it up, rehabilitate it, renovate it,
enlarge it and that's where we are.
If the legislative body didn't -- if they
hadn't used the word nonconforming, which you
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know may throw some people off, they basically
should have said if you've got a second
dwelling that predates you can enlarge it,
expand it, use it.
MEMBER SIMON: I --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: May I?
MEMBER SIMON: Please.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Alright, I come out
sort of in between the two of you, as lawyers
sometimes do. First of all, the most
important thing to remember is that it's a
nonconforming building. It is not a
nonconforming use.
BOARD MEMBERS: Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So let's get that
out of the way. It's not a use that cannot be
changed or moved or expanded in any way.
Okay, so once we're past that, it's a
nonconforming building. Why is it a
nonconforming building? It is only
nonconforming because it is a second dwelling
on a lot, okay. So it's different than if you
had a nonconforming building and it was the
only one, okay, so then, yes, you can enlarge,
alter, reconstruct, etc. This is a peculiar
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
duck because it's nonconforming by virtue of
its existence in any size, shape, okay,
height, width, depth. So it's my point of
view, we've been instructed by the Courts,
number one, it's not a nonconforming use, it's
a nonconforming building. Okay, yes, we used
to say second homes you can't do anything with
them. That's no longer the case. Okay, it's
a new world and in recent years we've been
treating them differently.
Okay, so it's a nonconforming building
because it exists at all. So anything you do
to make it bigger is going to increase the
degree of nonconformance. So where I disagree
with counsel is where he says, I have a right
and ability to enlarge or reconstruct it. My
point of view is, yes, but that's constricted
by not increasing the degree of nonconformance
and because by its existence it's
nonconforming, if you do anything to it you're
going to increase that degree, but that does
not mean you can't grant a variance to allow
that if you find it appropriate, if you find
it's going to remain an accessory dwelling to
the first dwelling, if you find it's not going
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to overpower the neighborhood or the neighbors
or really change the nature of the lot in the
neighborhood. So that's how I would advise
you view it. I hope that's not too confusing.
BOARD MEMBERS: No, not at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, I do have a
legal question based on that and based on all
that (inaudible) both counsel. So there are
three possibilities here according to the
Notice of Disapproval. My question is going
to be of those three choices --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: What I would do is
I would pick three, the alternative, which was
I think wise of counsel to give you those
choices, even though he might have paid some
more money in application fees, I think it was
worth it, do you technically need to reverse
the first -- you might need to reverse the
first conclusion of the Building Department,
which found it's a nonconforming use.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Respectfully requested
and as I said, I'm not grumbling, I'm here and
getting a fair shot at a hearing, but I had
that argument for literally several months
with the Building Department and --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right (inaudible).
MR. YAKABOWSKI: -- that's all right.
We're here and that's the whole --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Agree to disagree
on certain things. In that case, I would say
1 and 3, reversal and variance; if you choose
to grant it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
was questioning. One
Yeah, well that's what I
is for reversal, one is
relative to the suggestion that
for variances
this is an accessory cottage use is
nonconforming, since it really isn't
nonconforming --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The use is not
nonconforming.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Then I'm
wondering about number 3.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: 3 is necessary in
my view because you are increasing the degree
of the nonconformity of the building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but counsel argues
they're actually decreasing the nonconformity
(inaudible).
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Well, again I think
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
counsel -- I'm sorry.
We do have mildly opposing thoughts. My
thought on the enlargement and if you take a
look at the site plan as to a portion of the
building we're increasing the side yard
setback to keep it further away from our
neighbors for a portion of it, but also again
with respect to the enlargement, the -- I'm
arguing that that doesn't increase the degree
of nonconformity, although I suppose it's just
as easy to argue that, hey, if you add one
square foot to a nonconforming building that
increases the nonconformity, but my other
argument is and I think appropriate, is under
current Code you're not supposed to occupy as
a habitation a home without heat, you know,
and certain other amenities, which we're going
to be adding to this structure to bring it
into conformity with existing State
Construction Codes and current Town of
Southold Building Codes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The reason I ask these
questions is because while each application is
specific to the circumstances of that
application, it's important how a
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determination is written given the variations
one could examine in a case like this relative
to precedent for future applications. So I
want the record to reflect due consideration
to the three possible actions we might take in
this record. An interpretation is one of
them, you know, the second one.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Right that's the -- that
was my original application and, you know, as
a back up, if you will, ask for a reversal of
the determination and/or a variance from the
determination of the Building Inspector or
Building Department relating to their
consideration or their interpretation of the
Code, but I do think that the Code provision
relating to nonconforming structures with
conforming uses is the most appropriate.
Obviously, if you feel that, you know, in line
with counsel's suggestions to you that rather
than carte blanche you're looking at our
application and if you feel that by adding,
let's say any square footage, forgetting
amenities like heat, electrical and the like,
if you're adding any square footage adds to
the degree of nonconformity, then I would ask
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you to, you know, grant me a variance in that
regard.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I'm going to
correct myself. I would say 1 and 2. I agree
that you have the right provision of the Code,
but if you're going to enlarge I would
characterize that an increase in the degree of
nonconformance in what's 280-122 and, if
you're so inclined, grant a variance to that
section.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just finish,
because I just want to make sure, from a legal
perspective, which is certainly not my
expertise, but I'm smart enough to listen
well, the first thing that you described here
I thought sounded like number 2, which was an
interpretation.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, I don't think
you need an interpretation, quite frankly, I
think you need a variance under 122.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Yeah, I think what Mr.
Corcoran is saying is that the statute or the
Code provision itself is sufficiently clear
that you don't need to interpret it, but, and
he and I may have a slight disagreement, my
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argument is don't make me get a variance. I'm
not going beyond my lot coverage. I'm not
increasing -- decreasing side yard setbacks or
rear yard setbacks or front yard setbacks, but
if, you know, if you agree with his
interpretation that adding some square footage
adds to a degree of nonconformity, then in
that regard I do ask that you grant us a
variance in that regard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I will conclude with
asking once and for all eternity in order of
your priority, in terms of these three
possible actions by this Board, 1, 2, and 3, a
reversal, an interpretation and variance, what
would your preference be?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: My -- and I think, and
Kieran yell at me if you think I'm wrong, I
think the Building Department erred in its
application of the Code. I think their
initial determination should be reversed. I
think, respectfully, that I don't need to ask
for a variance of those provisions of the Code
they cited to, I think the Code section I'm
referring to, which is nonconforming structure
with conforming use is the appropriate section
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of the Code and, if you feel it necessary, I
would then ask that you give me a variance
with respect to allowing me to increase the
square footage on that conforming -- of that
conforming use or the nonconforming structure
so that I can continue.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's both 1 and 2 and
if that
MR.
yeah.
ASST.
need 3.
doesn't work we go to 3.
YAKABOWSKI: Correct. Yeah, I mean,
TOWN ATTORNEY:
I don't think we
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Yeah, I think to get to
3 I think we've all made a mistake.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, with 1 and 2 we
don't need 3.
MR. YAKABOWSKI:
MEMBER SIMON:
Yeah.
I was getting clear on
what Kieran was saying and also your comment.
The increasing degree of nonconformity, does
that or that does not need change in the use?
Does it include change in the use?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It does not.
MEMBER SIMON: Would that mean, for
example, that a garage could be, which is a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
preexisting building, which is a conforming
use could be converted into a dwelling unit --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: No, no.
MEMBER SIMON: -- under your
interpretation of --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
MEMBER SIMON: What
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
before us, but --
No, no.
am I missing?
Well, that's not
MEMBER SIMON: I know, but I'm interested
because of the precedential significance of
the decision.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I understand that,
but it would depend because if the garage as
accessory to the principle dwelling --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- it's not a
nonconforming building, first of all, it's not
a nonconforming use. You would be essentially
adding a second dwelling, which didn't
previously exist.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
ASST.
under one
allowed.
TOWN ATTORNEY: And you'd be stuck
(inaudible). It would not be
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible) Code.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And which would mean that
any existing dwelling, secondary accessory
dwelling which is seasonal,
Code as I read it could be
round and could perhaps be
could be under the
converted to a year
expanded or altered
provided it did not increase unacceptably the
degree of nonconformity.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: In my view, which
is slightly divergent from counsel's view, in
my view only if you say so by granting a
variance.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Only if it's okay
with you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you okay with
this, Michael?
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I'm just trying to
understand how narrowly or broadly a decision
would or could be written, that's all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That building is still
nonconforming, it's just (inaudible) the use.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right and I'm just
concerned about the use, as I've said before,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
I'm concerned we have lots and lots of
applications of people who are trying to take
for example an as-built or as-used
nonconforming use, which becomes a previous
use (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold that for a
second.
Mr. Yakabowski, who do you have other
than the applicant that can answer some square
footage questions for me because I have some
questions on square footage on existing as
to --
YAKABOWSKI: Go ahead. Ask me and if
I have Mr. (inaudible) my architect
opposed
MR.
I can't
here.
We have 15 --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In one of the
records I was shown, you were showing existing
square footage at 2289. Okay, that I believe
adds up to --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: 22-and-change that's for
the first floor. The first floor currently is
1500-and-change, that's going to go
increase by -- I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
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MR. YAKABOWSKI: The first floor
currently 1564 is going to 23-and-change, an
increase of 774 square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: There is currently no
second story. There is a small second story
of 600 square feet, thereabouts, and that will
be the newly added second story. We didn't do
calculations because the lower level is going
to be a basement level, mechanical, etc.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I have 2238 on
the first floor, proposed, and 690 on the
second floor, proposed, a total of --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- 3028; does that
sound about right?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: 3028 -- excuse me for
one moment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, (inaudible) square
feet. Proposed four-bedroom house --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: We're adding 1464 to
1564.
MEMBER OLIVA: 64 and you're adding how
much, 23?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: We're adding 1464.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
and 690
MR.
yes.
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
square feet
YAKABOWSKI:
Yeah, first floor is 2338.
2338 on the first floor
of habitable space --
On the second floor,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
many, many, so if that's
years.
I only said many,
decades it's only 30
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BOARD ASST.: Add those two together and
you have?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: 1464.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: And add that to the
total of 15-and-change for the existing first
level and that gives you your total square
footage.
BOARD ASST.: 3028.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: 3028.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I have.
Alright, in the past, we've known each
other, Mr. Yakabowski, for many, many, many,
many years, okay. You are an officer of the
court and --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Don't ask me to tell my
age if that's why we're talking about this.
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MR. YAKABOWSKI: I guess that's about
right, maybe a little more.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If I was to walk in
this present dwelling, these are questions I
always ask.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
dilapidation of the floor as I was to walk
into that main room area on, you know, through
the --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: You mean the existing
structure as it is now? No. No. We'd be the
first to concede to you and we show it on all
of our drawings, that we're going to raise the
home. We're going to examine existing sill
plates, underflooring, etc. because as you
know this did not have a basement, didn't
have, you know, it's the old stone footings,
and anything that needs to be replaced or
redone in this renovation will be done, but it
-- if you're asking me if I walk in the door
do I fall through the floor, the answer is no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the floor
is relatively stable?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: And it's being used.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As a seasonal
dwelling, it is -- meaning no heat, okay, no
air conditioning, it is a relatively stable
dwelling at this time for temporary use for
seasonal reasons; am I correct?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Um-hmm. Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. If one was
to find all of the sill plates rotted and
everything ready to go, meaning because there
are no leaders and gutters on the building and
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Termite infestation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
You may have to demolish
MR. YAKABOWSKI: No.
the
Termites, right.
entire structure?
So far, so far, and
we've done a lot of work at the site, we see
no indication that the structure, itself,
needs to be demolished. No, we intend to, you
know, rehabilitate, renovate and we think that
there is plenty of sound structure there. As
a matter of fact, as you see, we're planning
to go up so we're confident that, you know,
sufficient structure to permit
we've got the
us to do that.
CHAIRMAN
GOEHRINGER: So you would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
raising the existing structure enough to put a
foundation underneath
MR. YAKABOWSKI:
one foot in grade.
it?
And we're going to go up
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Just so that we have
appropriate drainage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything
else that you need regarding the structure
that you would be saving other than the main
portion of the building?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Well, we think, and
believe me I'm not an artist or an architect,
but we think that we're keeping the structure
in the current mode of the neighborhood. I
mean this was developed, as you probably know,
many, many years ago as a family compound.
Currently, the front home is being renovated
right now by Mr. Ferro, Mr. Ferro and his wife
are Ms. Polites son-in-law and daughter. So
Mr. and Mrs. Polites are redoing the accessory
structure and it'll be a family compound and
Mr. and Mrs. Ferro reside in Manhattan. Mr.
and Mrs. Polites have a home in Manhattan and
as well as a home out of the country so this
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
is not intended for rental to strangers. It's
intended for family use.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There was one other
question, but I'll leave it at that point.
MEMBER OLIVA: No. I understand what
Kieran is pointing out to us that it would be
a reversal of the Building Department's Notice
of Disapproval as far as the interpretation
and it is a nonconforming building, but a
conforming use, and if you expand and if we
decide to, then we would give a variance on
that nonconforming use; am I correct?
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Yes. That's correct.
Mr. Corcoran, your counsel's thoughts are and
I'm not here to get into a fight, his
thoughts, and I think I'm expressing it
correctly, is that if you're going to permit
me to add square footage as opposed to
renovating and rehabilitating the existing
structure just as it is, then his advice to
you is that I need, or my clients need a
variance.
MEMBER OLIVA: Need a variance.
BOARD ASST.: That's under 280-122
(inaudible).
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MR. YAKABOWSKI: Correct, 280-122.
Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what
happens during the hearing. Thank you.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: I should point out we
did receive two return receipts, Ms. Kowalsky.
We did not hear from the adjoining neighbors,
the Dills, and basically that's it. We've
received no written communiques from anyone
other than the fact that the cards came back.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anyone else
like to speak for or against this application?
Anybody have any comment at all regarding
this application?
Do the Board Members have any other
questions of anyone that is presenting this
application at this time?
Okay, hearing no further testimony, I
will entertain a motion. Actually, I'll make
the motion closing the hearing, reserving
decision until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
HEARING #6130 - Donald and Janis Rose
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a
application from the prior meeting regarding
application for an accessory structure on 145
Kind Street in Orient and we will defer to
counsel. Please state your name for the
record, again.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, Patricia Moore, 51020
Main Road, Southold.
This is a continuation -- reopening of
prior hearing. It's really a continuation of
discussions we had at the prior hearing so
we'd asked to incorporate everything,
obviously, that we discussed before.
We -- I'm very pleased that you actually
reopened it because if you have questions I'm
more than happy to have us reopen it and
address it rather than leave unanswered
questions that could lead to a decision that
no one wants. I do have Nancy Steelman here,
who is the architect, and I have Mr. and Mrs.
Rose here as well.
Just to recap, very briefly, we have an
accessory nonconforming garage structure very
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
close to the property line that my client --
their house is in the Historic District of
Orient, right on King Street, and the impetus,
really what geared them in looking to rebuild
actually an accessory building for both a car,
a standard garage, is the fact that Mr. Rose,
since he was in kindergarten, and we'll be
showing you items to display that, he has been
building things. It is his essence, it is
him. So it would just impact him greatly not
to be able to use his hands and keep himself
busy in what is a workshop and the Code speaks
in terms of workshop as typically just the
generic customary an accessory to the
principle dwelling.
The Board asked a question last time that
I want to clarify. You asked, well couldn't
we make this space in the principle dwelling
and the house is in poor condition, it will
need renovated over time. They're not quite
there, yet, but it will probably be renovated.
The problem is that the equipment he uses is
large, you know, typical woodworking and
metalworking equipment and you might stick it
in a basement if you didn't have an accessory
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
building, even though I've seen a thousand and
I actually had to go back to the Code as far
as workshop goes, it's not spelled out in the
Code as one of the accessory uses as a
playhouse might be or, I don't know, doghouse
might be. I don't remember if doghouse is
included or not, but they give you as
examples, pool, tennis courts, things like
that. The groundwater here is very high they
cannot put a basement in this building. So
even if they -- if you said to him, no, no we
won't let you have an accessory building, the
only option is to move away and they love this
house. They've had this house, it's a second
generation occupying this house. They can't
put it in the basement, there is no basement.
The fact that it's in the Historic
District, they are very, very careful with
meeting the architectural standards of the
History Preservation District. So there's
really no alternative here other than this
accessory building. The placement of the
accessory building, as we talked about last
time, there is a narrow, essentially an
alleyway, for a car to pass through and that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
where the garage bay is. That's the start of
the garage. So the placement of this
structure and we talked about alternatives, if
we tried to attach it we'd still need a
variance and essentially that alternative is a
bad alternative because we'd be in violation
of the historic preservation, we'd be altering
the structure with an addition that really
does not belong attached to the structure.
So we're here before you because we need
certain -- well the height is fine if we move
it away from the property line, but we can't
move it away from the property line because it
eliminates its feasibility as a garage. We do
also, from your inspections you know, we have
a two- or three-car garage to the east, two-
car garage to the east. A one-car garage to
the west, two-car. I'm sorry, two-car, two-
story. The house behind has their garage
placed on the opposite side of the property,
but they are -- it kind of -- the Village is
unique. Everybody is tight and the garages
are surrounding this property.
I want to show you now what he does and
why it's so important that he be able to
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Mr. Rose, you
MR. ROSE:
had said last
things when I
continue to do what he's been doing and again
it's the workshop in the accessory garage.
can describe what you do.
Okay, my name is Don Rose. I
time that I started building
was in nursery school and this
is the first thing I built. I did the
lettering and all of that after -- it's a
little school bus with a picture of my father
smoking in the backseat, but I remember
vividly in nursery school finding these two
pieces from a chair arm and nailing them
together. My dad had already t~ught me how to
nail, so it s~arte~ then.
I build various Ehings. This is just a
nice little Caligraphy letter R. This is a
driftwood frame. The thing that's important
about this is that there's no cut mark. I'll
show you more closely. There's driftwood
inside as well as outside. So it doesn't look
as though it's something sawn on, it looks
more a piece I think.
I also do metalworking.
little aluminum box that
solid piece of aluminum.
This is just a
was cut out of a
If you want to take
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
a
important thing
powered model.
take it apart.
look at that.
This happens to be a model, but the
is this is actually a steam-
It's radio-controlled and I'll
This is a two-cylinder steam
engine with a boiler powered with propane
butane and it's radio-controlled and I made
this engine myself. This whole assembly comes
right out and you can get it all fired up and
put all (inaudible). In fact, I had it on
display at a convention of metalworkers and
woodworkers in Pennsylvania in January. It
made a pretty big hit. Steam comes out the
stack and it's a lot of fun, I only recently
got into bringing the small steam engines.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very nice.
MR. ROSE: This
half boats I built.
show itself. I mean,
to build things. My
is one of the one-and-a-
I guess that's it for the
I build things. I love
retirement is going to be
working in creative endeavors like this and I
can't not do it. I'm glad it's not booze or
something like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have specific
questions to ask you, but Leslie --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pat,
over the information that
thank you for going
I think was well
covered in the previous hearing. I think I'd
like to go back to that hearing when you
described your desire to continue in your
retirement home the woodworking that you are
now doing in New Jersey, where you live, in a
woodworking shop that I believe you stated was
about 1000 square feet and that you need
additional space over what you already have
for your woodworking hobby.
May I ask you, I think perhaps what we're
really interested in is clarifying the
intensity of use of that space.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What you've shown us of
examples here are very modest in size. They
certainly would constitute a home hobby.
We're concerned with the possibility of a home
business. We are aware of a website that
shows the beautiful work you've done in custom
furniture and cabinetry with built-ins and
it's clearly advertised as a business and so
rather then wondering what's going on we
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thought let's clear the air and find out
exactly because business use, as you know, is
not the intent of that kind of zoning nor is
it something we would be able to grant. So
it's important that you clarify whether you're
retiring from that business to do things of
this scale or whether you will be continuing
to do custom furniture, larger scale, and
advertise for sale.
MR. ROSE: No, I'm not and here's the
explanation. When I retired four years ago I
thought well what I'll do is design and build
furniture. I did that for about two years and
I earned about $15.00 an hour and I gave up on
that. In fact, my customfurnitureone.com
website ends in, I think, July this year and
I'm not going to renew it. I really -- I
thought heck, I'm going to really get going
with this and the answer is I tried it, it
didn't work, I'm not happy that it didn't
work, but it's -- it works out to be I'm okay
with that. I guess I'm just not proud that it
didn't work, but I'm not
with Don Rose Works, LLC.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
going to continue
My question is,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
being a woodworker myself, nothing to the
degree that you are, sir, how do we soundproof
that building so we can make it more palatable
and create less concern to the neighbors? You
know, I live in a house that's both 2 by 6
construction and 2 by 4 construction and I did
that, specifically, cause I had no convection
in the house at all in 2 by 6
MR. ROSE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the
that are on the house are 2 by 4.
convection, okay, unfortunately I
little more money for heat, but I
construction.
additions
Now, I get
spend a
get the air
to move around a little, but I have to tell
you when that house was originally 2 by 6 you
didn't hear one blessed thing that went on
outside unless you had a wind that was in
excess of 50 miles an hour.
So what I'm asking you is how can you
help me understand how you can, with this
machinery, okay, soundproof that building
since you intend to put air conditioning in,
you intend to put heating in and this is a
test that I'm asking you because conceivably
there will be more people that want to do what
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
you're doing and that's the concern I have.
MRS. MOORE: Nancy, maybe you can
describe --
MS. STEELMAN: I think somewhat you
answered your question. Nancy Steelman,
Daniels and Steelman, Architects.
I think in some ways, if I understood
what you said is that your previous house had
2 by 6 studs, I'm assuming 6 inches of bat
insulation, the sound was fairly good. Windy
days, you know, you weren't really hearing
much. It was very tight. That's typically
how we're building everything these days.
There's nothing thai we've done in 25 years
that's been built all 2 by 4. So that was
always originally planned with those 2 by 6s
with 6 inches of bat insulation. We're
required even by Code in the roof structure to
go with R-30 bat insulation, which is close to
9-1/2, 10 inches. That's just for energy code
for a heated structure.
We can go to the next level and do a
double wall on the exterior and stagger those
studs. That's another way that, you know, you
can use stud and bat insulation to create a
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
tighter acoustical wall.
option, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
experience, Nancy,
would suffice?
MR. STEELMAN:
equipment. I'm not
So there is that
But in your
you think the 2 by 6 wall
I haven't heard his
-- you know, I haven't
been around a lot of woodshops and different
things like a lot of the contractors. I'm not
sure of the size and the type of equipmen~ he
has, but I'm assuming that with a 2 by 6
padded insulated wall that you'd be fine.
MR. ROSE: One mitigating factor is that
I'm pretty fussy about dust collection.
Everything in the machines is enclosed already
to limit the propagation of dust. So that may
muffle some of the sound tc begin with. I'm
not an expert, but that would be my guess.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: See, that was the
question that we failed, that I failed to ask
at the last hearing cause there is some
concern regarding noise and it's -- when
you're a hobbyist and you feel so inclined it
might be at different time~ of the day when
people might be sleeping or whatever.
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MRS. MOORE: There you go. I asked him
that question. Go ahead. He comes up with a
great answer.
MR. ROSE: I've got all, you know, knock
wood I've got all ten fingers. I also enjoy
my cocktail hour starting at 6:00 and my
machines don't run after 6. It's daytimes,
weekends, but not after 6.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question about
your craft. I noticed with some admiration
your steamboat and the metalworking. Are you
a machinist, do you machine those yourself?
MR. ROSE: Yes, I did.
MEMBER SIMON: Because that, of course,
as I understand it uses louder equipment than
woodworking machines, doesn't it?
MR. ROSE: Actually it's the opposite.
MEMBER SIMON: Really.
MR. ROSE: In a manufacturing environment
in metalworking there are very aggressive
depths of cut, feed rates and so on that
create a lot of noise, but the machine tools
that do the cutting are considered expendible
and they're expensive and that's all part of
the job in the manufacturing environment. In
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
the hobbyist environment I'm going to utilize
a very light depth of cut, very slow feed and
speeds in order to maximize my tool life. In
other words, I might have a cutter that's
$80.00. I want that to last for as long as it
can. Any time that I hear real noise in
metalworking, that's either chatter or
vibration or squealing, I'm doing something
wrong. So I would argue that my woodcutting
saw makes much more noise than the noisiest
lathe or mill.
MEMBER SIMON:
work you were doing before you retired?
MR. ROSE: Well, I -- yes. I was in the
pharmaceuticals business. Okay, I --
MEMBER SIMON: So you haven't been
covertly running a manufacturing business for
thirty years --
MR. ROSE: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: -- out of your house in
New Jersey?
MR. ROSE: I was training sales managers
how to work with their sales people.
MEMBER SIMON: I mention that because
that adds considerable credibility to your
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hobbyist argument.
MR. ROSE: I guess it does.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One follow-up question
with that, just so we're clear on the record,
will you be advertising at all or in any way
selling any of the products or the objects
that you'll be fabricating?
MR. ROSE: No, I will not.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so this is really
genuinely for your own use?
MR. ROSE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is primarily why we
wanted to talk to you.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) that's very
good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on. Because you
know, there's an important distinction between
a home hobby, which you are clearly describing
and a potential business use. So no one will
be coming to your studio for the purposes,
other than just showing off and enjoying
showing things off, they're not going to be
coming there to look at things to buy in
particular?
MR. ROSE: Yeah, I -- that's correct. By
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the way, I never did get any business through
the website.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's all word of
mouth, huh?
MEMBER WEISMAN: What did you do with all
that beautiful furniture?
MR. ROSE: It was word of mouth, yeah,
and I'm frankly surprised, I had Googled Don
Rose Works and never been able to pull up my
website. I'm surprised you saw it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have one other
question and then to you, Michael.
MR. ROSE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Relative to lot
coverage, okay, so we've got that. As far as
I'm concerned, we've already in my mind
addressed the issue of use, the intensity of
the use. Maybe this is something Nancy wants
to answer, I'm not sure. The request for
increased lot coverage to 33.43 percent, okay,
let's see, should that additional lot coverage
not be granted, from a design perspective, now
we understand why you need the side yard and
rear yard setbacks to remain with the height
to make sure you have an adequate second floor
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
for the use of youg workshop, right now it's a
kind of an L-shaped structure and you've kind
of squared it off and made a rectangle out of
it. An option would be, of course it would
change roof pitches, that's why I want you up
here cause you're reducing sill plate height
in order to equate to lower the profile of the
actual building. If that L was simply turned
around to parallel the existing garage, let's
say, rather than be perpendicular to it and
that filled in you would wind up with -- you
could still wind up with a second story. You
could still wind up with the side yard, rear
yard setback. You would wind up with slightly
less inside of the workshop because the ground
level and the second level would be reduced by
amount of that fill-in. Are you following
the
me?
MS. STEELMAN: I think I do. You're
adding with the infitl of that one rectangular
area you see on the site plan 55 square feet -
MEMBER WEISMAN: Correct and then again
upstairs another 55 square feet.
MS. STEELMAN: Upstairs also for 110
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. STEELMAN: So you're saying to remove
that section and just reconfigure the shape.
What are the consequences from your -- I just
want to enter this for the record for
consideration and the fact that we discussed
it at the hearing.
MS. STEELMAN: Okay, so to reconfigure
this -- that's where I'm missing it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Shall I show you?
MS. STEELMAN: Yes, could you. Oh yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you want to approach
or shall I come there?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just one statement
at a time, please.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MS. STEELMAN:
square footage.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It would be the same
No, what we're talking
about is this fill-in, this little rectangle
that's being filled in. So the Board can see
also.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you answer
you need her to stop. I'm not directing you,
Nancy, I'm just asking you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. That's the 55
square foot additional requested lot coverage,
basically. Okay, should that be denied, okay,
that's going to mean 55 on the ground and 55
above, okay, so 110 square feet addition.
Let's just explore if that wasn't acceptable
if this piece here could wind up going this
way.
MS. STEELMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This piece gets -- this
is deleted, okay. This piece gets shifted to
about here like that.
MRS. MOORE: You're filling it in.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a box.
MS. STEELMAN: It's still a box.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it simply, now the
roof pitches will change slightly within the
- but I want the record to reflect the
discussion about the consequences of not
granting the additional lot coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: From your perspective as
an architect what will that do to the pitches
so that the profile will appear higher or
would it appear higher or would it appear iow?
You know, if that was a part of consideration.
MRS. MOORE: Nancy you have to put it on
the record so you're going to come back.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, now you can go
back. I just was -- Thank you, Pat.
MS. STEELMAN: Based on Leslie's
potential redesign my concern with this would
be the roof lines. I think that overall the
structure itself going with an 8-foot plate
for the structure, 6 inches to the top plate
with a pyramidal-type roof will appear to be a
lot larger in proportion than it would be as
we have it currently designed. We have
currently set up a different roof structure so
that there's different elements. I think the
scale of the building is more broken down with
what we have now. I think to square-off the
building it would be basically a square and we
would set up a pyramidal-roof, a hip pyramidal
roof.
I think basically where I would be
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concerned is also Landmarks. We've gotten a
tentative from them, not an approval because
they wanted to meet with the ZBA first and
they basically liked what we were doing. This
I think could create some problems for us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was going to ask you
what the -- cause we know that you have to get
a certificate of appropriateness for the LPC
and I wanted --
MS. STEELMAN: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to ask you where the
status was. We don't want to put you in a
position where we've experienced you going
back and forth. Has there been a public
hearing on this?
MS. STEELMAN: No. The way it was left,
we did -- we brought these drawings in, met
with them for probably close to 45 minutes.
15 minutes of that was that they were, before
they would establish that public hearing, they
wanted a complete set of working documents. I
advised my clients that it didn't make sense
for us to do a whole set of working drawings
prior to getting our variances.
So we have just put them on hold until
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
this was resolved and then we would then go
back to them.
MRS. MOORE: You could get their comments
and input.
MS. STEELMAN: Yes, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just say
this for the record, what would really look
neat on this building and I'm not here to
design this gentleman and lady's building,
would be to eliminate that box on the second
floor and to just put a little shed roof then
it would just look like a little farmhouse in
the back and that would really look cool, I
have to tell you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Take the 55 square
feet off of the second floor, okay, and a
little bit of a shed roof off of that and
although you wouldn't see that from the front
of the house, okay, from the front of the
house toward the back, it'll look just like a
small little country farmhouse.
MS. STEELMAN: So you're thinking of
rectangular with dormers, shed dormers?
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not a dormer, a
little shed roof. Just a little shed roof.
MS. STEELMAN: Shed roof?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Over that front
fill-in that you're putting in.
MS. STEELMAN: Oh, I see. Not doing a
second floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not doing the
second floor.
MS. STEELMAN: Putting a little shed so
you still have the first floor area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. STEELMAN: And just -- I think
architecturally we could do a lot of different
things.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. STEELMAN: I think it's -- what we've
tried to do is maximize Don's workshop space.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course, and my
concern is noise.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
in --
MS. STEELMAN:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Noise we can deal with
Right.
-- a particular manner.
If the variance for lot coverage is granted on
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
the ground floor, I see no reason why the
second floor --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm only making a
statement, I'm not designing it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- given the same
(inaudible) and the sort of scale and massing
and roof pitches that that denial of
additional square footage on the second floor
should -- I just wanted to explore the
possibility of and wanted the record to
reflect where you were with the LPC and what
the consequences might be from a scale
perspective of changing the roof pitches and
creating more of a square than a rectangle.
Okay. I have no further questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't either.
MRS. MOORE: Let me just address two
points that I know my client was clear for me
and I hope I can express it correctly.
Woodworking equipment creates sawdust, which
ruins metalwork equipment. Metalwork dust
damages woodworking equipment, so the reality
is that the -- I think the metal, high
precision-type metal --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
MR. ROSE: Would be on the ground floor
and the woodworking --
MRS. MOORE:
the woodworking
them physically
damage the very
-- on the ground floor and
is the second floor to keep
separated so that you don't
sensitive equipment cause it's
precision work not mass work. So the
precision work really is much more sensitive
and that's why he's trying to create, and as
he said, he has containment for the dust, but
even with full containment there's always
threat of contamination. So that's why I
think when Nancy was designing this that was
kept in mind to keep the equipment segregated.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else like
to speak for or against this application?
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I just wanted
to see if anybody else was going to raise
their hand. Go ahead, sorry.
MEMBER SIMON: Just regarding the -- my
only questions really did concern intensity of
use, which is related to sound, just cause my
understanding is the boundary between running
a business and having a hobby isn't
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
necessarily, as far as I understand it,
whether you sell any items. It's my
understanding that if you make four decoy
ducks in your basement a year and you sell two
of them, you would not be on the wrong side of
the home occupation law. So you don't have to
be -- it's not quite so rigid as do you ever
sell anything. It is (inaudible) as a matter
of degrees so you don't have to be able to
feel if you get this and you sell one lousy
little item or one --
MRS. MOORE:
and it's okay.
MEMBER SIMON:
So I (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible)
(inaudible) jewelry box.
jewelry box.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I could buy a box from him
Right, it would be okay.
very, very much.
back.
MRS. MOORE:
to have
Always need a
Alright. Thank you
We appreciate you coming
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I offer the
normal resolution.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6145 Spyro Avdoulos
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, we're
ready.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I want to thank the
Board for getting us on your calendar so
quickly. This is a situation where we have
all the materials purchased, plans drawn up,
the contractors hired and waiting and it
really is financial hardship to the client
this stall -- this stop, which I've come
before the Board based on two bases, two
reasons. One is to overturn the determination
of the Building Inspector and the other is a
variance.
What I want to point out is our original
application to you is very thorough. This
project would have been very simple if it had
been a renovation of the existing house with a
roof change, but what prompted us to make such
a complicated application was our intention to
make everything more conforming and to do that
the Coastal Erosion Line bisected the seaward
portion of the house. So when we began this
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
process we convinced the client that really
they don't want -- the Town doesn't want to
see us renovating or rebuilding in the Coastal
Erosion within the Coastal Erosion Line. So
to the extent we could take the same house cut
away the portion of the house that was in the
Coastal Erosion Line and essentially convert
the existing foundation that was closest to
the water, make it a patio and start the house
what would be 7 feet back where the next
foundation wall is in place.
There is a full basement here. While the
house was up, obviously, Angel Chorno the
architect, he went into the basement, looked
at all the walls, looked at the substructure
that was there to the extent that it was
visible and everything looked fine.
When the contractor began, the first
thing he obviously had to do and was all
described in the original application to the
Board, we're cutting off the second floor of
the house. It's clearly a whole new second
floor because, in fact, we were changing,
again, in our efforts to keep things more
conforming, a second floor rather than
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
220
existing house has to meet
Code.
The asbestos shingles
State Building
-- we gave you, you
know, you guys asked for a lot of information.
We had the same house that the elevation that
was presented to you is what got converted to
construction drawings. So the windows were
shown. The new siding, we have to remove the
asbestos shingles. We have to put in the
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starting at the wall or at the line of the
east side of the house we were stepping back
the second floor so that it would meet the 15-
foot side yard setback. So, again, our
efforts were to make things more conforming
not increase the degree of nonconformity.
The Board -- in the decision that the
Board wrote, it describes what our request
was, which involves the keeping of the
existing foundation without disturbing --
without disturbing it and converting it to a
patio after removing the north first floor
wall that is over the Coastal Erosion Line.
The house was built in the early 50s and these
renovations/additions will bring the home into
current Building Code standards. So the
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proper R-rated insulation. We have to make
sure that all the substructure is tied down
with straps, all the hurricane standards. The
engineer -- houses can't be reconstructed
without making them more conforming, so that's
what was the plan for you and the submission
that was made.
We still have the existing foundation and
the contractor said, alright, if I have to
remove this foundation how much more is it
going to cost the client. Aside from the fact
that changing the foundation, at this point,
well he gave me a bill for $78,400.00. That's
how much a full foundation plus -- I mean it's
not just foundation you have to remove what's
there, you've got to pour a new foundation,
you've got to put the waterproofing, you've
got to build a new chimney because the chimney
is still at -- the fireplace is still in place
and all that involved is the $78,000.00 bill.
Whereas, the problem we have is isolated to
the east wall, which was a very deep wall
constructed deep into the ground, but it
doesn't have a pad underneath it. So we --
obviously it couldn't be seen until the
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excavation started taking place. It's the
crawl space and I'll give you this one. It's
just, I'll put it it the direction it is.
This is the east wall and remember this
portion of the wall was new always because we
were cutting the house back. This is the
Coastal Erosion Line. This is where the house
was beginning because it was being stepped
back from its original location. So it's this
wall here that doesn't have a footing
underneath it and the price that we got to
remediate that wall was $5,000.00. That's
what it cost to fix the problem. We offered
and we offered to you, we said we won't touch
the foundation. If you don't want us to touch
the foundation, we won't touch the foundation,
we'll use steel. Well that
obviously came back to this
are.
didn't -- we
Board, here we
Our plan has not changed whatsoever. The
foundation wall is one of those things that
you discover unexpectedly during construction.
It could happen at any time. It happens all
throughout there are changes that have to be
made onsite. It was not the intention of the
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applicant to do anything different than what
was submitted to you right from the beginning.
This isn't one where we said to you, you know,
we're keeping the same house, but we're just
putting a second floor. We said, no, we know
we can't do that because we're cutting the
house away. The only wall that's remaining,
essentially, because of the sticks that are
involved, we have the east and the west
framing that's still there, the existing
framing, that on the east side it used to be
an enclosed porch. So when you take out all
the old windows there's not much frame left.
On the west side we still have significant
amount of framing, but again the window
placement is going to be popped in and out.
It's closer to the end product, so you
see more of that, but the important thing here
is it's a significant foundation and that's
what we presented to you right from the
beginning is that we want to use this
foundation. We want to limit the amount of
disturbance here, we're pushing the whole
structure back and the Board granted the
variances and we moved on ahead.
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So at this point we're back to you. We
have not increased the degree of nonconformity
in the sense that it's exactly the same plan
that was submitted originally. Our surprise,
obviously, is the foundation wall, which is
not going up higher than the house was
originally. It was expected to be
structurally sound with footings underneath.
It would be replaced with the same dimensions,
it just needs footings underneath. It needs a
pad underneath. That's what we're here before
the Board to ask.
I have Joe Fischetti who is here and one
of the issues and it came up late, very late
yesterday, was the neighbor to the east, it's
the same owner, the owner to the west and the
owner to the east had a visitor that doesn't
understand Coastal issues and got her all
upset and thought maybe her house might be
jeopardized by our plan and, fortunately,
without my even -- without realizing it, she
went to see Joe Fischetti and Joe was very
familiar with this project because he had
designed the sanitary system, which by the way
we have sanitary approval, so I'm going to
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have Joe just put on the record as far as our
plan, does it impact weight, does it change
any of what was originally submitted to the
Board.
MR. FISCHETTI: I'm Joe Fischetti. Nice
to see you again.
Yes. The neighbor to the east called me
up. I have done other engineering work for
her and she says, I'm concerned about a
project next door to me, could you help me? I
said come on over to my office, bring over the
surveys and let me look at it. When she
brought the surveys over I started to realize,
I said, Amy, I'm sorry, but I did work for the
neighbor next door. I can't be your
consultant, but I said let me see what you
got, what's your problem here? She told me
what her concern was and again I'll tell you
what I told her.
I said somewhat to what we said this
morning is that, I said this house has been
here. They're adding a second story, they're
not adding much load to the structure. It
will not affect the bluff any. There -- you
have a bulkhead there that's very stable and
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then she told me that she didn't have a
bulkhead on your side. I said, well, Amy,
that's a problem. I said what are you doing
with that bulkhead on the east side. So she
says, we're replacing it. I said that's good
because that's more dangerous than what's
happening next door. I said you have to
repair your bulkhead. So what I said to her
and I'll say on the record here is that
nothing that's happening on this project will
affect or cause any damage to the neighbor to
the east. The second floor or any of the
structures are very stable. The bluff is
actually at a 25 degree angle and with the
bulkheading it's a very stable condition. So
there will not be any damage to the neighbor
to the east. That's just to put it on record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do they take
care of this situation?
MR. FISCHETTI: What situation are we
talking about?
MEMBER OLIVA: Loss
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
foundation.
MR. FISCHETTI: There's
of foundation.
With the
not much you can
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do, Gerry. It's a block wall. If it was
concrete you might be able to pin it, but
because it's block you can't pin it. So you
end up having to remove it,
and build it back up again.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
put a footing in
So that's the only
real way they -- it's the only (inaudible).
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah. It's something
that just was missed. It doesn't change the
context or the flavor or anything, it jus~
happens to be a missing footing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just for the point
of question, do they saw that wall out or do
they actually break it out.
MR. FISCHETTI: It's block.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's block, they
break it out.
MR. FISCHETII: It's going to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sledgehammer it out
and --
MR. FISCHETTI: Just knock it out, put a
footing and probably -- I don't know if
they're going to put block or concrete, but
it's really meaningless. It's still an 8 inch
wall and it's still the same height and it's
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going to be put back exactly the way it was
before, except it'll have a footing under it.
It's just something you have to find --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In your estimation
and I have to ask this question, you've
already answered most of it and that is it
doesn't change the integrity of the rest of
the foundation. The foundation will then
become a unit again and it will then be able
to be constructed upon.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's correct, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Any questions of
Mr. Fischetti, at this time, ladies and
gentlemen?
MR. FISCHETTI: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where do we go from
here, Pat?
MRS. MOORE: Do you have any other
questions or --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we can see what
develops throughout the hearing.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, fine.
I do have from the contractor the cost of
what this foundation is worth as far as value,
aside from the fact that all our plans,
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
everything is designed with it in mind, I do
have a price tag.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there
anything you want to discuss regarding the
LWRP?
MRS.
the LWRP
MOORE: Well, I think to begin with
talks in terms of the Coastal Erosion
Hazard and that's what really triggered our
whole plan. We were trying to eliminate the
portion of the house that was inside the
Coastal Erosion Line. So they -- is it
inconsistent? Well, based on the way that
they interpreted distance to the bluff, but
you don't have -- you have a property that has
a bulkhead. Joe has already pointed out that
it's a iow one, it's only 25 percent slope.
There's a jetty on the property. The property
is very stable. I think Soil and Water had
given us a green light.
There really was no issue and drainage is
being covered by our standard drainage
conditions. We also have imposed a non-turf
buffer, which was imposed on the original
application, the original approval.
So what's frustrating is to give this
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response back, it's -- we're in the midst of
construction and there's no way of making this
more conforming other -- beyond what has
already been implemented. We implemented an
entire mitigation measure initially by pushing
the house back and building on the existing
foundation that was there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail the drywells
are still intact, everything that you were --
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely, everything in
the plans, the construction drawings and our
drainage, everything has to be implemented.
We are on pause right now because of the one
wall. Everything else is already in place.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
give us a letter to that
have it, you know --
MRS. MOORE: What's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I think you should
affect so that we
that?
-- as a reference
to this
received.
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah, I mean --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
have it.
inconsistent aspect that we just
I'll give you whatever.
Okay, so I mean we
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MRS. MOORE: I'll give you a letter, but
you already have it on the record. I'm happy
to give it to you in writing that I've already
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we can
incorporate whatever you put in the letter.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, into the decision,
that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Into the decision,
which is important.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last thing is,
did you go to the Trustees with this aspect,
yet or have the Trustees --
MRS. MOORE: I have it on for the next
meeting.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The next meeting.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Unfortunately with the
Trustees, they weren't paying attention when I
submitted the original submission because they
started talking to me about a first floor and
I was talking to them about a foundation. So
I had questions -- I don't know if you've ever
been to a Trustees' meeting where all of them
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talk at once.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But you were three
feet apart.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, just a little. So
we're going back to them for that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: One issue I guess we have to
clarify.
MR. CHORNO: My name is Angel Chorno and
I did the drawings and the original drawings
that were approved the walls on the east and
west were supposed to be kept and add 2
inches, 2 by 2 in order to put all the
insulation that we needed because 2 by 4 would
not take the insulation.
When we opened the walls it turned out
that on the east side the wall had practically
no studs and they had windows so the wall
actually was no wall. So I had to, in the new
drawings, revised drawings, show that I put in
a new wall, 2 by 6 wall there. If I'm
required I'll keep the few studs and whatever
frame inside the wall I have to build in order
to support the room, but that wall is not
there. On the west side, yes, they have studs
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and I can do, but at this point might be more
practical instead of adding 2 by 2, just put
one 2 by 6 next to the existing 2 by 4s and
get the depth I need so I made those
modifications in the new drawings I submitted
and I want to clarify that they are different
from the original drawings that were approved
in those terms. That's about it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
sistering up the joists;
MR. CHORNO: In one
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
And that's called
is that correct?
case, I'm just --
On the west side?
MR. CHORNO: On the west side, yes.
the other it's replacing because --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Studs, yes.
Excuse, me I meant studs.
MR. CHORNO: Yes, is to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. CHORNO: -- beef up the wall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. CHORNO: That's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else who would like to speak for
this application? Anyone?
In
Right. Thank you.
it.
Is there anybody
or against
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So I guess we'll ask your question, Mike,
if you wouldn't mind.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Michael
Verity, Chief Building Inspector.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Fischetti
testified to the fact that if they cut this
wall out and put a brand new wall in with the
footings, the proper footings, that the unit
of the existing foundation and you know that
we've spoken about older foundations in
general. I did go down and look at the
foundation, I'm not a building inspector in
any way, manner or form, and some of the block
looked pretty good to me. Some of it, you
know, and I looked at the hole. I saw the
hole that was there, does that suffice for you
in reference to the integrity of it for the
load from your standpoint?
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: As a
building inspector, yes. I'm not a licensed
profession, not an engineer, but I would say
as a Building Inspector, yes. On a personal
note, if I was at this point, I would not
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
build a new home on that foundation and that's
not speaking for or against this project, I
hope you understand that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I hope you don't
mind me asking that question.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Not at
all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Not at
all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not meant to
be said in a derogatory manner toward that
foundation or anything -- we're still learning
on this whole aspect of the reconstruction of
homes on existing foundations.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah, I
know Pat recently had another project, not to
bring them into the mix, but that project
there was a discussion on whether the
foundation went or not, that was pretty much
the same question is what I'm trying to say.
In the future, I think that should be always
the discussion because there's very few that
they do save and, at this point, why do you
save it.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Again
I'm not speaking for or against it, but it
just doesn't make good sense to do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you for
your opinion.
Anybody else like to speak for or
against?
Any wrap up?
MRS. MOORE: Just wrap up as far as why
owners, I mean aside from its placement, you
know, that's obvious, but there is actually a
significant cost savings that if you can
preserve a foundation, which 90 percent of
this now that it's exposed it appears it has
the footings. So you know that's why in most
cases I think the effort is to retain what
you've got because it's a savings to the
overall expense of the project.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If it's foundation
or if it's house, as you heard in the clients
that Mr. Yakabowski represents, I mean, we
always try and ask the percentage basis and
you know does it exist, is it stable enough
and all of the specific questions that reflect
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MRS. MOORE: Right, sure. Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- that type of
situation.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's for life.
BOARD ASST.:
year foundation.
would be stable,
MRS. MOORE:
So it would be like a 50-
I mean for a long time it
right?
Yes, I guess -- houses are
meant to stay there for 100 years. Yeah. I
mean --
BOARD ASST.: I mean, it was stable for -
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
already.
MRS. MOORE:
-- the house has been --
-- probably 50 years
Oh yeah. The house has
already been there for at least 50, yeah, 50
years old.
BOARD ASST.: I mean the old foundation
supporting the new construction will probably
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, if you recall the
house had been almost a two-story that the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
Angel reminds me that the difference between
one-and-a-half and two-story house is often
times just the ceiling heights. There was a
full second story here. It -- so the house is
essentially staying the same and remember
we're adding a whole new foundation on the
landward side, the addition. So you're
actually spreading the weight even more so
than where it originally was. We're moving,
you know, significant part of the structure to
the landward side.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So I think if I've answered
your question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you.
Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion closing the
hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - March 27, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature ' ~
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
January 4, 2009
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