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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
December 4, 2008
9:33 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
RUTH OLIVA - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI Board Assistant
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Leonard and Randee Daddona %6225 3-11
Vicky Germaise %6226 11-17
Lloyd Kaplan %6221 18-32
Franeker Investments, Inc. #6220 32-49
William F. Krlis %6222 49-59
Hope Schneider #6215 59-97
Charles and Susan Geitz ~6218 97-103
Frank Scarola #6227 103-137
Deborah Pontino #6230 137-143
John Tagios #6231 143-153
Romanelli Realty Inc. #6100 and %6224 153-246
Steve and Olga Tenedios #6198 246-318
Ryan and Jennifer Stork #6187 and #6232 318-358
Gama Properties #6219 359-419
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Call meeting to
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
HEARING #6225 - Leonard and
Randee Daddona
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15, based on the Building Inspector's
September 9, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed swimming pool construction
in a yard other than a rear yard (the property
has two front yards and two side yards).
Location of Property: 1380 Calves Neck Road,
Southold; CTM 1000-63-7-25."
Okay, this is a property that has two
front yards and two side yards and this is
again one of these technical problems that
they can't put the swimming -- there's no
place, according to the Code, where they can
put the swimming pool and looking at it it
conforms to the relevant setbacks aside from
that and I don't see any problem with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, who would
like to be heard on this? Would you like to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
state your name for the record?
MS. DADDONA: My name is Randee Daddona,
I'm the homeowner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we need you
to use that. Thank you.
MS. DADDONA: Randee Daddona, I'm the
homeowner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And what would you
like to tell us?
MS. DADDONA: We were approved last year
for the pool, which was based on the side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. DADDONA: And we decided as a family
that we'd rather have it behind our house so
that it's more the family we could all be
there and it's not like a whole trip going to
the beach. You know, what I mean? Just to
get to the side cause we just want to be able
to see everything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MEMBER SIMON: You needed a variance to
put it in the side yard anyway, it's just a
matter of which variance you're applying for;
is that correct?
MS. DADDONA: Um --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: It's a non front yard --
non rear yard pool and no matter where you put
it it's going to be in a non rear yard. It's
a question of which non rear yard you're going
to apply for.
MS. DADDONA: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MS. DADDONA: Okay, so we're going to,
um, cause originally it was on the side of the
house and now we're putting it on the Mid Farm
Road.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MS. DADDONA: So it's going to be, you
know, closer to the house than to the road.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. Okay, I don't have
any further questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I remember the
previous application. When I went back I said
I've been here before.
MS. DADDONA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're going to lose
that huge tree, huh? Yeah, too bad. It's a
beautiful oak tree.
Yeah, the only thing, would you have any
objection, I would imagine because your
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
setback is conforming from Old Farm -- is it
Old? Mid Farm.
MS. DADDONA: Mid Farm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not an issue, but
you will want to have some privacy, obviously.
I mean if the Code -- the Code requires a
four-foot fence, but that's not going to do
it. So how about some evergreen screening?
That's okay with you?
MS. DADDONA: 100 percent.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine.
MS. DADDONA: I like, you know, my
property has very beautiful landscaping and
natural trees and we want to keep that whole
look.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, cause it's very
open to the view of Mid Farm.
MS. DADDONA: Right. Yeah, we're going
to -- even from Mid Farm, we're going to keep
higher bushes and, you know, just keep it more
private.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now I see on your
survey that the pool equipment is proposed
being located in a sound deadening cabinet --
MS. DADDONA: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which is great. I
don't see on the survey any drywell for
backwash for the pool water.
MS. DADDONA: Um, I think they did it
last time. I forget how it was discussed.
MEMBER OLIVA: It wasn't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Go ahead, Ruth.
MEMBER OLIVA: It wasn't needed, it was
completely revolving --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The type of pool that
you're putting in some of them don't require
backwash.
MS. DADDONA: I think that's what it was.
I think cause we had to go back and find out
and them they said we didn't require that and
another question was
on this.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
just in handwriting,
about the sound, which is
Right. Okay. Can you
briefly, for our file put
into writing the fact that a drywell is not
required because of the type of pool
equipment.
MS. DADDONA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just state what that
so that we have that information there.
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December 4, 2008
MS. DADDONA: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause normally we would
require a drywell.
MS. DADDONA: Sure, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just so we're complete.
MS. DADDONA: Do you want me to do that
now or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whenever -- yeah, today
-- whenever you get to it in the next day or
two or just turn it in to staff in the office.
MS. DADDONA: Um-hmm. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Linda will take it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We definitely need
it by next Friday.
MS. DADDONA: Okay. I mean I can do it
in the next five minutes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can do it now and
just bring it up to us when you're done.
MS. DADDONA: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whatever is easy for
you.
MS. DADDONA: Yeah, okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Excuse me,
want to hand us the specifications
that pool is going to be filtered.
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but you might
for how
You know,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
get the -- I think it's more than just, you
know, we're going to have a filter that
doesn't need a drywell.
MS. DADDONA: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: If you have the spec
sheets from the filter, you know --
MS. DADDONA: Right, the more technical
aspects.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, give that to us
that way, you know, it's proof that this
particular pool doesn't require --
MS. DADDONA: Right, cause I'll call the
pool company and have them --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, they'll fax it
over to you and that's all we really need.
MS. DADDONA: Right. Okay -- or would
you rather them fax it directly to you?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. You can --
however the Board wants you to do it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, because the
letter has to come from you.
MS. DADDONA: Right, okay.
MEMBER SIMON: Attach it to your letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cause you're the
applicant.
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MS. DADDONA: Right. So it would be the
fax from the pool company and then a letter
from me.
MEMBER SIMON: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. DADDONA: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Send it to the office and
we'll make it part of the file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll bring it in.
MS. DADDONA: Okay, I'll do that today.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, that's fine. I
thought I saw her before.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If, in fact, the
design of the pool does not include that type
of filter, you would include in the letter
that you are going to put a drywell in and
that you will indicate on the survey where the
drywell would go.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just in that
slim chance that something may change.
MS. DADDONA: Alright, so if it is
required, where it's going to be placed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. DADDONA: Okay.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we would be
closing the hearing subject to that, okay,
both the receipt either of your letter or your
physical being coming into the office and
doing that. Okay?
MS. DADDONA: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If, for some
reason, they decide to change that situation.
MS. DADDONA: Okay, so you need the fax,
a letter from me and drop it off to the office
and then we'll decide from there.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. DADDONA: Okay,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Yes. Thank you.
so that's it then?
Yeah, just a
Is there anybody else would like to
This
is
minute.
speak for or against this application?
is the first appeal of the morning. It
appeal %6225.
Seeing no hands, we'll make a motion
closing the hearing pending receipt of that
information from the property owner and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
HEARING #6226 - Vicky Germaise
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
124, based on the Building Inspector's
September 5, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed addition which will be
less than the code-required minimum of 50 feet
for the rear yard setback, at 345 Bunny Lane,
New Suffolk; CTM 1000-117-6-20.1."
MR. SEINFELD: Good morning, Mr. Chairman
and Board Members. Gary Seinfeld, West Creek
Builders representing the homeowner, Vicky
Germaise, who is sitting right here.
It's pretty clear in the application this
is a four-foot extension to an existing deck
that requires a variance for the setback
requirements. The extension is going on the
deck from the house out to the rear yard
setback. There's some pictures included with
the application and I'm sure you've been out
to the site also to give you an idea of the
scale.
I can answer any questions that you have.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. I see the house
and the deck in the rear are very well
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screened on both the rear and side yard by
existing stockade fencing as well as evergreen
screening. You already have a nonconforming
setback, 39 foot.
feet so that will
MR. SEINFELD:
You're proposing to add 4
reduce that.
The 39 on the survey
should be to the proposed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Um-hmm, so
that's with the addition.
MR. SEINFELD: With the addition it would
be 39.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Code requires 50, so
MR. SEINFELD: Just the CO includes the
nonconforming on existing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CO on existing.
Can you just, for the record, explain what the
circumstances are that have led the applicant
to want to expand the deck?
MR. SEINFELD: The deck is in need of
repair. The existing footings are not up to
today's standards. So the deck does require
to be reframed and poured new footings with
that happening in mind, the homeowners would
like to gain some more space on the depth of
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the deck to make it more usable
basis.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
up being 22 feet long,
grade. Is that going
on a daily
Okay. So it will wind
about 20 inches above
to remain consistent?
MR. SEINFELD: Yeah, which
only 20 inches above grade. So
have a high profile.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SEINFELD:
is nice it's
it doesn't
Yeah.
So that with the existing
screening really has a small impact on the
area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so it's structural
improvements and a little bit of more room so
the applicant can enjoy their rear yard a
little more comfortably.
MR. SEINFELD: Correct. It's always nice
to get some upgrades to further the use.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay. I have no further
No questions.
No. It's fine.
I have a question.
The
existing deck which needs to be repaired
nonconforming. It's 34 feet, I believe,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
rather than 50 and that deck is in need of
repair.
MR. SEINFELD: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: The effort is to try to,
while you're at it, so to speak, to double the
non-conformity that already exists. Is there
any other reason you have under the Code
you're to justify the need for this as opposed
to the desirability of it, that's to be
acknowledged, and one of the benefits -- one
of the mitigating circumstances is the
existence of the hedging, but the reason for
requiring the extension of the deck to 14 feet
is what? Just it would be nice to have a
wider deck?
MR. SEINFELD:
us to rip out the
The Code does not
existing footings.
require
They can
can --
stay cause they are conforming. So I
the benefit is to get new footings on there.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. SEINFELD: The desire to extend the
deck is for their personal use. I mean I
can't, to be honest with you, I can't give you
another answer other than that.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. SEINFELD: There's not a Code
requirement or a construction requirement to
make it wider.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I appreciate your
candor.
MR. SEINFELD: But the benefit is that I
can tear out the footings and put them in
there -- the Building Department will not --
if I just redeck the surface and replace a
couple of boards, I don't have to redo this.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. The -- you're not
here because of the need for the footings, you
get the footings anyway.
MR. SEINFELD: I'm not here for that
cause that can stay as is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just the setback.
Well, the interesting thing about this,
Michael, is the fact the house is more skewed
toward the rear yard, which actually is
magnificent and makes it absolutely beautiful.
MR. SEINFELD: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
beautiful without that.
MR. SEINFELD: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Not -- it would be
So I mean there's
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December 4, 2008
where the hardship starts because the house
was placed farther back.
MR. SEINFELD: Under normal circumstances
of building decks, we would be at about the
size that we're trying to get to. So the deck
itself was somewhat narrow because of the
footprint of the house being further back. So
there's an existing hardship because of that,
obviously not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Just
don't leave cause we ask the proverbial
question, or you can stand there if you'd
like.
MR. SEINFELD: Not a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who'd like to be heard on the Board?
Okay, seeing no hands, is there anybody in the
audience who'd like to heard either for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing reserving --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- decision until
later.
(See Minutes for Resolution.'
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December 4, 2008
HEARING %6221 - Lloyd Kaplan
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-15C and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's amended September 2, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning an accessory
swimming pool proposed with a front yard
setback at less than the code-required minimum
of 40 feet and with lot coverage exceeding the
code limitations of 20% (maximum) on this
buildable area of 14,679 square feet adjacent
to the Long Island Sound. Location of
Property: 105 Soundview Avenue, Southold; CTM
1000-50-2-3."
The person to speak to that?
BOARD ASST.: Just state your name for
the record, please.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Oh, sure. Shawn
(inaudible)
BOARD ASST.: We have the photographs and
there's two letters. One letter here from
Ralph -- how do you pronounce his name?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Vestgom.
BOARD ASST.: Vestgom on Lighthouse Road,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Southold, VESTGOM, and a letter supporting
from Bruce Garatano from Lighthouse Road,
Southold.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we have one
letter in the file against this, I believe.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're ready for
you, Shawn.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Thank you. The
applicants are seeking to locate a pool on the
subject property. Given that there is a fence
on Long Island Sound and there is a bluff, the
pool -- we acknowledge we want to place it on
the seaward side of the house.
MEMBER OLIVA: Could you turn the mike
up?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Sure. Sorry. Of
course you'd want to place the pool on the
seaward side of the hosue, but with the bluff
setbacks you can't, at least it wouldn't meet
the setbacks. Bruce Anderson of Suffolk
Environmental had met with Mr. Verity of the
Southold Building Department when trying to
seek a logical location for the pool and
apparently they came up with what's before you
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
now.
The property is significantly screened.
That's what the set of photographs
demonstrates. The neighboring property to the
west has existing significant screening. This
property is significantly screened. There's
also a Trustee permit that's been issued for
the pool already, part of which required a
substantial revegetation plan. There's going
to be more screening vegetation installed.
Basically given where the house is located,
this is, if you were going to put a pool here,
really what you could do. 16 by 32, it's not
a 20 by 40 pool it's a little bit smaller.
MEMBER SIMON: What are the numbers?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): 16 by 32 foot pool, 25
feet from the front yard and 15 feet from the
side yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
question? This house is on a slab; is it not?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I remember
being in this house. This house was totally
renovated at one time, was it not?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Actually, I don't know.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
remember being in it when
in great condition now.
Okay. Yeah, I
it was not and it's
MR. (INAUDIBLE}: Great house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think based upon
the slab aspect of it I think the pool could
be placed closer to the house and I'm not
taking the -- my colleague Micheal's steam out
of this one, but I mean I think it can.
There's a difference when you have a
foundation and how close you can go with a
pool, but I mean it could go a little closer
to the house. It could be turned in an
opposite direction. These are all things that
could be dealt with. It could be built
perpendicular to the road, actually it's built
perpendicular now --
MR. {INAUDIBLE): Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- but it could be
parallel to the road actually and all of those
things could be taken into account, which
would kind of not cause a flag situation
actually coming out into the property; could
it not?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): You certainly could
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
rotate it. You'd be taking away some space
from the gravel driveway. I mean certainly
moving it closer to the house is possible. If
you do rotate it parallel you certainly do not
want to get it too close. I feel like if you
run it parallel to the road you have more of
the pool closer to the house. I just don't
know if there's a safety issue there with -- I
guess it would be fenced, but I wouldn't want
to have any troubles with people falling into
the pool inadvertently.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
on the front of the house
Are there any doors
on that side?
MR.
setbacks,
Building
with in terms of what they felt
location for the pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I believe --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean they're
probably all open, but you are aware of what
is required by the Building Department
regarding this now?
(INAUDIBLE): In terms of the
yes. Like I said, this is what the
Inspector and Mr. Anderson came up
was the best
is just my
suggestion, this is not the suggestion of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Board.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Understood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there any
medical reasons for the purpose of this pool
in the front yard area?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): None.
no.
The front yard,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So I'm just
throwing that out to the Board and, Michael, I
apologize.
MEMBER SIMON: You're applying for a
variance for two reasons, there are two
variances. One has to do with lot coverage
and, of course, the other has to do with
setback.
MR. (INAUDIBLE}: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Ordinarily, we don't get
them both together because the lot coverage
may be for example a problem with a small lot
and the fact that there is a 30 percent lot
coverage variance and a 40 percent setback
variance according to my calculations, it
suggests that in the process of exceeding the
code-required lot coverage you're also putting
it closer to the lot line than would otherwise
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
be required. If you had to choose between
adjusting the size of the pool or adjusting
the setback from the lot line, which would you
rather apply for if you had to give one up?
MR. {INAUDIBLE): Gosh, I'd really have
to leave that to my client.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words in line
with Mr. Goehringer's suggestion, is if it
were closer to the house to get the same size
pool that would increase the setback to the
line. If you're comfortable with that, that's
a partial answer to my question.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I think moving it
closer to the house would be reasonable.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I have a question. The
lot coverage is that based on the buildable
area or the total property?
MEMBER SIMON: Buildable area.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): The buildable area. So
I mean there is a little bit of a hardship in
that respect because the property is
sufficiently large; however, the buildable
area is (inaudible) by bluff.
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible) call that a
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
hardship, that's called the Code.
MR. {INAUDIBLE): Well, the property
being what it is it is a large property,
however, as you stated.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to see the
setback from the road increased to minimum of
30 feet. You also don't have a drywell
located on your survey. You show pool
equipment, which will have to be in a sound
deadening cabinet, very close to the road,
almost at the edge of the road, which is fine
for the applicant, but I want to make sure the
passersby are not, you know, imposed upon with
noise from that equipment.
Also, I think that you can probably, in
addition to putting the pool a little closer
to the house, reduce the size of the pool
thereby reducing the lot coverage. That's a
substantial lot coverage. It is the only
place for the pool, it's a flat area. It's an
appropriate place for it on a waterfront
property, but we're trying to grant the
minimum variance necessary in order to have
the Kaplans have their pool. So I'd like to
see that lot coverage reduced from 26.2
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
percent down a bit more as well as the
setback. I don't know that we can dictate
exactly what percentage. I think maybe you
want to discuss that with the Kaplans and see
how much you're prepared to reduce the pool.
We can grant alternative relief, which
will dictate to you what those numbers are,
but I think we'd rather see a revised survey
with a drywell, if need be, for the type of
pool.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think we have
any -- do we have any details on what the pool
installation is in the file? I don't recall
seeing that.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I have it in my file
from, I guess, the Trustees had required. I
was browsing through this this morning. It
will be a gunite pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it does say
drywell.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): In the driveway, right?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, in the actual
- you have the drywell located on the actual
survey.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right,
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's
Thank you, I take that back. I was
this large hand drawn thing.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I didn't know if there
was another survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, there is a survey
there, that's fine.
BOARD ASST.: There is no spec showing
the depth of the pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. There's no
specifications on the pool whether it's vinyl
or gunite or whatever.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): I can provide those to
the Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be great.
The other thing that I do want to point is in
your reasons for the area variance, reasons
for the appeal, point 3, the amount of relief
requested is not substantial. You say that
you think it's not substantial because of the
vegetation; however, the vegetation
issue of screening, relative to the
of these variances are substantial.
as Michael said, about 40 -- as applied for,
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good.
looking at
is an
Code both
They' re,
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December 4, 2008
you know, as you've applied for them. The
front yard setback would be a 40 percent
variance and the lot coverage would be about a
30 percent variance. Those are substantial
variances. So whatever you can do to reduce
them is to your advantage, I think.
MR. (INAUDIBLE}: So could the Board
suggest
a pool size
comfortable with?
MEMBER SIMON:
they would be more
We don't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you have
great flexibility with a gunite pool.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Certainly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean greater
flexibility than anybody has.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It could be rectangular,
but it can be freeform. You can scoot it, you
know, closer to the house. It's a matter of
design, too. I mean the house is very
horizontal and geometric and they perhaps want
that flat plain to
BOARD ASST.:
remain aesthetically, but
We could ask for a couple
of alternative diagrams.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you could --
BOARD ASST.: Talk to your client.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's an idea. Yeah,
maybe show us two or three proposals and then
we'll discuss it. We can perhaps leave the
hearing open until you come back.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just let me mention
this to everybody. We are recessing,
mandatorily, at 10:05 and I would like to
either bring this to a close by then with this
gentleman and --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
question. We got
Yes, we can.
Yes.
I just wanted to ask one
a letter late this -- early
this morning, which is rather late in the
process and we faxed it to your office early
this morning. I have an extra copy right now,
it's a neighbor who has concerns and it was
added into the file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Board is Jimmy you haven't
A question to the
spoken, Ruth, you
haven't spoken, do you want to speak now?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have
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anything to say.
MEMBER OLIVA: I agree. I mean I think
it could be moved closer to the house because
if you have people walking by, you're full
exposed. You might have an audience out there
and it reduces the lot coverage, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean there are a
phenomenal amount of variables. Is there
anyone here that would like to speak either
for or against this application?
Okay, if there's no one here, I think we
can pick and choose a time to, you know,
basically hold this hearing at another time.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): Yeah, I would request
we would adjourn it so we can come back with
some alternate plans --
BOARD ASST.: How much time would you
need to get back to the office with the
written plans?
MR. (INAUDIBLE):
when is the next --
BOARD ASST.: A week, a month, two
months?
MR. (INAUDIBLE): When is the next
meeting?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: January 8.
BOARD ASST.: January 8.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): That would be more than
sufficient if there's room on
BOARD ASST.: You'd have
week before that.
MR. (INAUDIBLE):
BOARD ASST.: --
December 27.
MR. (INAUDIBLE):
the agenda.
to submit it a
Okay.
which would be around
We can do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We just want you to
be aware that these calendars are extremely
busy. Okay?
BOARD ASST.: Tight.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we are going to
make that attempt to put it on on January 8.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): If not, I can only ask
that you put it on as soon as you can.
MEMBER SIMON: The reason why we would
not offer you a number is because the Board is
five different people who have not conversed
on what that number would be --
MR. {INAUDIBLE): Just trying to make it
easier for myself.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, fair enough.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll make a motion
closing the hearing -- no, excuse me,
recessing the hearing until the February
meeting.
BOARD ASST.: February 19th, Thursday.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thursday the 19.
MR. (INAUDIBLE): February 19.
BOARD ASST.: Thursday, it's a Thursday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What do you want to
say, 1:307
BOARD ASST.: I would say 1:30, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: What is it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: February.
MEMBER SIMON: February, oh.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I offer that
resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
HEARING #6220 - Franeker
Investments, Inc.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
15, based on the Building Inspector's
September 4, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
concerning a proposed new accessory structure
(after demolition of an accessory building) in
a location other than the code-required front
yard or rear yard. Location of Property:
Fishers Island Sound, Private Road off East
End Road, bounded on the west by Henkel and on
the east by Waterman Investment Co., Fishers
Island, NY; CTM 1000-3-1-3.3."
I guess what you're going to do is take
down that existing shed that you have there,
barn, and build a new structure?
MR. HAMM: That's right. An improved
structure, what's there now is obsolete.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right,
add on to the square footage
BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry,
you're going to
we need to have
Mr. Hamm's name for the record, please, for
the court reporter.
MR. HAMM: Steven Hamm, 38 Nugent Street,
Southampton for the applicant.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. HAMM: I'll give you the --
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We love visual
aides.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I love pictures.
MR. HAMM: (Inaudible) [Speaking away
from microphone.]
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. HAMM: (Inaudible).
I'd like to -- the Board received a
letter from the adjoining property owner and
I'd just like to address that briefly. Most
of the argument is in writing, I don't need to
go through it all. There was some renovation
work done on my client's house in 2007 that
may have been the cause of his concern;
however, the normal landscaping is done, and
there are affidavits attached to my memorandum
from the landscaper himself, is done during
the week when there are fewer people around.
No power equipment is used on weekends and
they've made every effort to keep noise levels
down as my clients don't like noise either.
A further point that's made in a letter
from the owner and also made by the
landscaper, they're exhibits to my memorandum,
to the effect that Mr. Vanderventer has never
complained to him. In fact, my client, Mrs.
Corenti has never even met him in the 18 years
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
or so that she's owned the property. So
they're more than willing to work with the
neighbors, but I think his letter is more or
less a red herring. I just wanted to make
that point and you can see from the aerial
photographs that I've just given you that
there's quite a distance between his property
and this shed and most of the work is done on
an adjoining property anyway. So you can see
from that aerial that there is not a whole lot
of lawn that needs to be tended to on the
property that adjoins Mr. Vanderventer's.
From the zoning issue point of view, I've
addressed all the statutory criteria in
writing in that memorandum. I just wanted to
highlight two issues. One is character of the
neighborhood. You can see from the aerial
photograph that Mr. Vanderventer, the neighbor
that would be most affected by the use of that
shed has, himself, two accessory structures,
apparently guest houses. They are very close
to the street line, so there is precedent
right next door here for having an accessory
structure in something other than a required
rear yard, that point I've made in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
memorandum as well.
The second point has to do with
alternatives. This expansion of this
structure is proposed in an area that has
already been disturbed. It has environmental
permits and I maintain and I go through the
argument that there is not essentially a
conforming location on this lot that could be
used because if it were put in a required rear
yard, at least, it'd come into conflict with
Section 280-116 requiring the setback from a
bluff. We have a preexisting residence that's
about 45 feet from the street line so that
trying to fit this into the front yard would
not work. It would not meet the principle
blowing (sic) setback for a waterfront
property, so we couldn't put it there. We are
putting it in the largest of the two side
yards that has already been developed and
that's the purpose of that location.
Other points, the purpose of the
renovation, addition, whatever you want to
call it, replacement, is the obsoleteness of
the existing structure. If anybody has any
questions on that, I think I've addressed the
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
concerns in the memorandum, but I'll be happy
to answer and questions that you might have.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think you pretty much
summed it up. What's the picture that you
handed us, this one here --
MR. HAMM: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The white house is not
your house, right?
MR. HAMM: No. That's the neighbor, the
white. You can see the existing shed to the
left of it. That's looking south, that view
is looking south, so right is west as opposed
to east.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That round structure is
MR. HAMM: That's the residence. The
farthest to the left is the residence and
there's a second photograph that just shows my
client's property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so the
residence is the round structure and the --
MR. HAMM: The shed is between the white
structures --
MEMBER WEISMAN: In the middle of --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR.
correct.
BOARD ASST.:
HAMM: -- in the middle, that's
Can I just -- whose
residence? I'm sorry, the neighbor's
residence?
MR. HAMM: The neighbor's residence is
the white. The round structure is on this
property, as you can see from the survey it's
a former windmill,
BOARD ASST.:
applicant's?
MR. HAMM:
yeah.
I guess.
This property is the
The applicant's property,
MEMBER SIMON: The neighbor in his letter
asks, raises the question of another property
to the east.
MR. HAMM: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And do you have any --
(inaudible) the same person?
MR. HAMM: Yeah, it's held in separate
name. It's a larger house on the east of the
subject property. They're separate lots,
separate COs, separate everything.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay and is this a -- the
octagonal house on the subject property, is
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that a residence?
MR. HAMM: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It's not an accessory
building?
MR. HAMM: It's not an accessory
building. It has a pre-CO, I can --
MEMBER SIMON: Someone lives there during
the sur~ner?
MR. HAMM: Yeah, it's used.
MEMBER SIMON: Does the family -- is it
essentially a family compound where the
eastern lot is owned also by family members?
MR. HAMM: Yeah, the eastern lot is owned
in the individual names of the principles of
the corporation, which owns the subject
property, the property that's before you now.
So, yes, it's a compound of sorts. It's held
in separate names, however, I suppose -- the
project manager is here. Is that used as a
guest house, the windmill?
MR. GOMES: The windmill, yes.
MR. HAMM: And --
BOARD ASST.: We would need his name for
the record, please.
MR. HAMM: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. GOMES: Antonio Gomes, G-O-M-E-S.
BOARD ASST.: Okay and he is the?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Project manager.
MR. GOMES: I'm the estate manager for
the (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need to ask
some specifics about the original building.
Did you take any square footages down, Steve,
so that we can --
MR. HAMM: The architect gave me the --
existing building 248.25 square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 248.25.
MR. HAMM: Area of addition, 297.25.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now are you going
to destroy this or --
MR. HAMM: It'll be removed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- (inaudible) the
building and --
MR. HAMM: It'll be removed, but the
foundation will be used for the greenhouse and
then there's storage behind it over a -- a
storage area for things like clay pots and
that sort of thing over an equipment sort of
garage beneath, but it will be used not for
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
vehicles, but for the rider mower and lawn
mowers and that sort of thing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it going to be
as high as this one is, this is a one and a
half story structure; the existing.
MR. HAMM: Yeah, the height of the
existing is 27 to the top of the ridge.
Height of proposed building 21.9. So it's
slightly higher.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, okay. What
about the utility in there?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Did you say 27 on the
existing?
MR. HAMM: 20 feet 7 inches.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ah.
MR. HAMM: Sorry, I'm reading it and it's
-- yeah I can see when you hear it it sounds
different.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have a cold and I --
MR. HAMM: So do I. So do I,
unfortunately, a lot of people do now.
20.7
21 feet 9 inches
MEMBER WEISMAN:
existing.
is the proposed.
21.9 proposed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright and the
utility in that one, electricity only?
MR. HAMM: And I think -- in the current
one, is it electricity only in the current
one? There's proposed a spray system for the
greenhouse and two bibs is proposed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the greenhouse
will occupy the existing foundation when the
demolition of the existing shed is --
MR. HAMM: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. HAMM: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and how high
would be greenhouse be?
MR. HAMM: I don't have that, I can get
that for you. I just have the exist -- the
proposed building will be 21 feet 9 inches.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How large is the
existing house on the property?
MR. HAMM: It's not large. You can see
from the survey, I would scale it off. The
calculations we did were lot coverage
increasing from
I make the point
coverage here at
.9 percent to 1.2 percent. So
in my memorandum that our lot
the end of the day will be
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only about 1/16 what the --
MEMBER SIMON: I wasn't concerned about
lot coverage, I mean, obviously that's not a
problem.
MR. HAMM: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Just a question, when I
mistakenly referred to this and asked whether
it was an accessory -- it's a relatively minor
building compared with presumably other
buildings on the --
MR. HAMM: Yes. Yeah, the other house --
the other property has a much larger house on
it.
MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh.
MR. HAMM: Correct. However, this has a
separate CO, a preexisting CO and it's own
lot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you do a
favor for me?
MR. HAMM: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When you speak to
any representative concerning this greenhouse,
would you please indicate that the or include
in your letter to us that the deck is going to
be removed or is it going to be removed on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
existing building that is being shown on the
plan as it exists today? Of course, the
height that we just discussed also.
MR. HAMM: Whether, in other words,
whether the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're showing a
deck on this right now, which is I suspect
some sort of suspension deck cause that's how
they got things in the building.
MR. HAMM: Yeah, it's sort of a ramp.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, it's like a
ramp because we need to include all of this in
the decision or else the Building Department
is going to make you sever it and that's the
only thing --
MR. HAMM: Right. Um-hmm, I'm trying to
figure out what we can tell from the plans,
but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The way that survey, I'm
sorry --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, go ahead,
please.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but the way the
survey is actually described -- it's not
really a -- it's a partial survey, I'll show
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December 4, 2008
you specifically what
MR. HAMM: Right,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'm {inaudible).
um-hmm.
It appears as though the
existing shed is going to remain and the
proposed addition is going to be added to
That's the way it's actually noted --
it.
MR. HAMM: That's the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that is not exactly -
MR. HAMM: That's the way the surveyor
indicated it, yes, but the -- where it says
existing shed, that will be removed and
rebuilt. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. HAMM: In that same footprint. I'll
have to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just -- you know,
because when we stamp drawings I just want to
make sure that they reflect exactly what's
going to happen.
MR. HAMM: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because this could be
misunderstood as a renovation and an addition
instead of a teardown leaving the foundation
and so on.
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December 4, 2008
MR. HAMM: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think you probably
have that explained in a lot of these memos
MR. HAMM: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but, you know, we
have to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just clearly state
that for us (inaudible) so that's the third
thing we're looking for.
MEMBER SIMON: If I could speak to this
point. I think that it is misleading to a
point where it's strikingly misleading. The
fact that this shows three separate
photographs of a building, which in fact will
no longer exist if this variance is granted.
I mean that's a little bit puzzling to me as
though, you know, it's almost as though it's a
bait and switch operation. I don't think it
is.
MR. HAMM: Well, no --
MEMBER SIMON: Why are we falling in love
with this wonderful building so to speak
because of the wonderful pictures of it and
why they're put in there because it's going to
be destroyed?
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MR. HAMM: Well, I guess that was just in
response to show photos and it shows -- also
they've drawn on those photos where the new
portion will be.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MR. HAMM: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I don't have an
issue with it. I just want to make sure that
it's understood that the only real variance is
to put a new accessory structure on a
preexisting foundation in a front yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I comment --
MR. HAMM: Or a side yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I make a comment?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I read the legal notice
and the legal notice says everything that you
want, Leslie. It says that they're
demolishing this accessory building.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And it says that they're
going to build a new one. So I don't know --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't know what --
where is -- how is that vague and, Michael,
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how is that deceptive?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean, read the legal
notice. That's what we're supposed to make
the decision on, okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see that, Jim. I see
that, but what I'm talking about is the fact
that we have to stamp a drawing and we have a
survey that doesn't describe itself in the
same way that Mr. Hamm's written submissions
and the Notice of Disapproval describe it.
Ail I'm asking for is consistent information.
I understand what the application is for and I
don't have a real problem with it.
MR. HAMM: I will have this, I will also
have the surveyor correct the site plan to
indicate that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
asking.
That's all I really am
MR. HAMM:
the architect myself.
just adding on and so
point where we are?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It is confusing. I had to ask
Now, what -- are you
forth to get to the
Exactly.
MR. HAMM: Absolutely.
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. HAMM: But
notice was --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Thank you.
I agree that the legal
Yeah.
MR.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Hamm.
MR. HAMM: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
HAMM: -- advertised correctly.
Thank you, Mr.
Is there any -- so
we'll close this hearing pending the receipt
of that information from you.
MR. HAMM: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else in the audience who would like to speak
for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, excuse me, closing the
hearing pending the receipt of the information
requested from the attorney of the applicant.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
**********************************************
HEARING #6222 - William F. Krlis
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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"Request for a Variance under Sections
280-122A and 280-1244, based on the Building
Inspector's August 5, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning proposed additions and
alterations to an existing seasonal dwelling
for conversation to a year-round residence,
which new construction will increase the lot
coverage in excess of the code-limitation
(maximum) of 20 percent. Location of
Property: 100 Fay Court, Mattituck; CTM 1000-
123-5-12."
MR. STRANG: Good morning everyone.
Garrett Strang, architect on behalf of the
applicant, Mr. Krlis.
I have the green cards I'd like to
present (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. STRANG: What we have here in this
application is an existing single-family home,
relatively small two-bedroom, one bath. It's
basically preexisting nonconforming with
respect to lot coverage as it is existing.
The nature of what we want to do is, although
it's been, I guess at some point in time the
house was in fact winterized, but they never
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made it I guess to the Assessor's Office so
it's been deemed to be a seasonal residence,
but it has been winterized. Part of the
challenge is that the heating plant and the
hot water heater are in a small excavated
basement area under this house. That floods
whenever we have severe weather.
The house is in a flood zone and actually
part of what we're proposing to do is elevate
the house by two feet because of the fact that
it is in a flood zone and the flood criteria
requires that it be two foot higher than it
presently is. Now FEMA requirements also
dictate that all equipment not be below the
base flood elevation, which means that it
can't be in the basement area and actually the
basement area as
filled in.
That leaves
small as it is has to be
us with the question as to
what do we do with our heating plant. What
we're proposing as part of this application is
to put a small addition on the back of the
back of the building to accommodate strictly
the boiler room since there is really no area
that we can allocate within the footprint of
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the existing house to do this since the house
is so small.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Garrett, excuse me,
let me just stop you. What is the lowest
first floor elevation then going to be?
MR. STRANG: The existing is a little
over 8 feet, it shows on the site plan. The
existing first floor elevation is 8.49. The
new FEMA requirements require 2 feet above
that, actually it's the New York State
requirement now that came into power in
January of this year that dictates that all
finished first floors must be 2 feet above the
FEMA base flood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRANG: So we're going to elevate
the house by approximately 2 feet to get it at
10.25.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. STRANG: Actually, the mechanical
room as a new addition would be required to be
at that elevation regardless, but -- so we're
going to bring the whole house up that 2 feet
or so and then put that mechanical room
addition on the back. It's basically a small
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room to accommodate -- what we've done so as
to keep the room as small as possible is we're
using a self-contained combination boiler/hot
water heater. So it's one unit, it's about 3
foot square and that eliminates the need to
have a separate hot water heater. So we can
have it in one unit and keep this building
small enough or this additional small enough
just to accommodate that
service it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
thing is then the
in?
MR. STRANG: The
house where there was
unit and be able to
And the only other
foundation will be filled
foundation under the
a basement would be
brought up to what would be considered crawl
space level, which is within a foot of -- no
greater than 1 foot below grade, but probably
close to grade. So we have to fill that all
in when we elevate the house. Again, given
the fact that everything has to come up so
high, we have to put a landing and steps on
the back of this mechanical room so we can get
in and out of that room to service the
equipment and install the equipment and we'll
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and to hope
to grant us
relief.
have to add some additional steps at the entry
points to the house because of the additional
height above grade. Essentially we're
increasing our lot coverage from 28 percent to
30 percent based on this, which includes
everything shown on the site plan as well as
the -- there was, I forgot to mention, there
was an existing outdoor shower in the area
where we're placing this mechanical room.
We're going to relocate that over to the other
corner, which is an open air, just a fence
enclosure, no roof on it, that's open. The
reason we placed this mechanical room where it
is is we want to be able to reuse the existing
chimney. So we can just breach right into
that existing chimney on the other side where
the new room would be.
We really have no other options available
to us except to pursue this particular route
that the Board will be agreeable
the additional lot coverage
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
anything on the garage?
MR. STRANG: No. The
Are you doing
garage is going to
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remain untouched.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I mean if you
were doing something on the garage we could
ask you to shrink the garage, but you're not
doing that so you're
MR. STRANG: No,
on the garage at all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a garage.
MR. STRANG: It's
storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
storage right now.
leaving it.
we're not doing anything
And everybody needs
used for all kinds of
It's used only for
MR. STRANG: Pardon?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's used only for
storage, not for a car, because there's no
access to it.
MR. STRANG: It's used for storage,
there's really no access to it. The car is
parked in the driveway. The garage is
basically used as a storage building since
there is no basement and so there is no --
limited amount of room for storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Garrett are you
proposing to add any additional height to the
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December 4, 2008
actual house, not the first floor, obviously
that's going to make the house higher, but are
you in the renovations adding any additional
habitable space beyond what's already there?
MR. STRANG: No. Essentially the house
will be elevated exactly as is. There's no
proposal to put additional dormers or any
dormers on the building at all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so the house will
be essentially just renovated, but the shell
of the building is going to remain the same.
MR. STRANG: Actually, the house itself
is not being renovated.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright,
elevated.
MR. STRANG:
is, we're going
it's being
The house is remaining as
to just pick it up and bring
the foundation up 2 foot higher and bring the
foundation up 2 foot higher, approximately 2
foot higher.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
MR. STRANG: And add the mechanical room
on the back.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Let's see if
there's anything else here. Can you tell me,
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December 4, 2008
the additional steps that are going to be
necessary on the Fay Court side in order to
actually, you know, reach the front door, what
will that setback from the street be? It's
already very close, I mean as is the case
typically with some of the other remaining
cottages in the neighborhood, but I can't --
what's submitted here doesn't have it noted
cause this isn't in scale because this is in
Xerox so I can't scale it.
MR. STRANG: I'm going to say that would
probably be -- right now, the step based on
the scale of the drawing, the surveyor never
gave us a hard number on that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. STRANG: -- but based on the site
plan, the existing steps are about six and a
half feet from the Fay Court property line and
with the additional several steps it would at
about 4 feet from Fay Court property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can see why I want
that noted because it's -- in this case I
don't think the steps are going to count in
terms of setback per se, but it's going to be
very, very close to the street.
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The
MR. STRANG: Yes. Yes, it will be.
property line is a little bit in from the
actual travel part of the road, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I don't have any
further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER SIMON: I have
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
no questions.
Okay, we'll see
what develops throughout the hearing.
MR. STRANG: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Thank
you for your presentation.
Is there anybody else would like to speak
for or against this application? Sir, come up
use the mike and state your name.
MR. FEBNACK: My name is Raymond Fednack
and I'm a neighbor and I live directly across
the street from Bill Krlis. I would suggest
that you take this in consideration and
approve it because there really is no other
way that Bill Krlis can live there year round
or even enjoy the summer in some cool weather
without some mechanical room on his property.
You know there are other people in that area
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December 4, 2008
who have exceeded a lot of other things as
they have built things, but this is a very
minor thing and I think it's necessary for him
to have a quality of life
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. FEDNACK: You're
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that's good.
Thank you.
welcome.
Anybody else?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6215 Hope Schneider
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-116, 280-122A, 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's July 11, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed new
dwelling, after demolition of the existing
building. The reasons stated for disapproving
the building permit application are that the
new construction: (1) will be an increase in
the degree of nonconformity with regard to the
rear yard at less than 35 feet, (2) will be an
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increase in the degree of nonconformity with
regard to a single side yard at less than 10
feet and with regard to total side yards at
less than 25 feet combined, on this 4,914
square foot buildable area; and (3) in
addition the proposed construction is less
than the code-required minimum of 75 feet from
the bulkhead and the lot coverage will exceed
the code limitation of (maximum) of 20%.
Location of Property: Goldsmith's Inlet at
1960 Mill Lane, Southold; CTM 1000-67-7-11."
We do have a letter from the LWRP
coordinator, Mark Cherry that it is
inconsistent; just to let you know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have a letter of
disapproval I think that's Lloyd Stein --
BOARD ASST.: Sonia Stein.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sonia Stein, pardon
me. I apologize.
BOARD ASST.: In opposition.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In opposition,
Sonia Stein.
Okay, Cathy.
MS. MESIANO:
Okay, Catherine Mesiano
behalf of the applicant and I'll just give
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copies of the outline, I know sometimes --
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, it helps for the
court reporter. Thank you very much.
MS. MESIANO: So as was already stated we
have a 6,070 square foot waterfront parcel
having 4,914 square feet of buildable area.
The property is improved with a preexisting 31
by 32 irregular framed dwelling for which a
pre-CO #Zl1400 was issued 12/27/82; I'll note
that that was for a heated structure. A deck
addition for which CO %15063 was issued
10/30/86. The existing cesspool is located in
the east side yard approximately 13 feet from
the bulkhead. An upgraded septic system has
been designed and is pending Health Department
approval. It's an engineered system, which is
pending before the Board of Review.
Compliance with these Health Department regs
necessitates the elevated system with an
approximately 3-foot high retaining wall. The
invert elevation is at 10.1 and --
MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me, I'm having
trouble hearing because
the hall.
MS. MESIANO: Oh. I'll close the door.
of the conversation in
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where is that
system going to be located?
MS. MESIANO: The system will be in the
front yard that would be the southwest corner
of the property. The septic field takes up
the entirety of the front yard with the
exception of the gravel drive area.
I'll wait if anyone has any questions
before I proceed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any
screening proposed on that?
MS. MESIANO: The screening as far as the
property itself is well screened.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I meant are you
going to alter that in any way?
MS. MESIANO: No, no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: We propose to make as few
changes to the landscape, the ground, etc. as
possible and I'll get into that.
The proposed improvements to the property
consist of a second-story addition over the
existing dwelling. Replacement of the
existing deck, the new deck will be smaller
and the setback from the wetland will be
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greater than the existing deck. The existing
front porch will be extended to the southwest
corner of the house not encroaching any
farther into the side yard than the house
presently exists. I'm getting off track.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I just ask, just for
consistency --
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- about the proposed
deck in the rear yard and the setback from the
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- (inaudible) that
exists? Unless I'm misreading this, the
Notice of Disapproval indicates the proposed
construction at 12
MS. MESIANO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to your deck.
feet to a bulkhead.
If you look at the survey -
The survey shows 16 feet
MS. MESIANO: The bulkhead that they're
referring to -- are we looking at the same
thing? The bulkhead is on the east side of
the property and it does not extend to the
north or northeast side. It's along the side
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
yard line off of our property and what looks
to be the same configuration as a bulkhead
would normally appear is simply a wood edging
that's set in the ground.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's what it is, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, I see that, but
it says concrete and stone (inaudible), okay,
that dotted line and that's at 16 feet so I
presume that's what the survey is using as a
setback for that deck from (inaudible).
MS. MESIANO: The setback is being
measured from the wetland delineation, the
seaward edge of the tidal wetland. If you
notice there're small triangles with
{inaudible) lot line running through that
(inaudible) area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh, right.
MS. MESIANO: And the surveyor had
measured from that point to the edge of the
deck. If one were to measure from the
property line to the edge of the deck, and
I'll give you that, I believe we have on the
nearest point of the new deck to the property
line it looks to be 24 to 25 feet and from the
existing corner of the deck to the property
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
line looks to be about 18 feet. We have gone
to the Trustees first and that's how this
survey has evolved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm just --
BOARD ASST.: May I just mention, our
Building Department measures to the closest
point of the bulkhead on the property and
they're estimating it at 12 feet at the
closest point where that bulkhead and the
edging go.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's more or less
a side yard then actually --
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, but they didn't --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I understand to
the bulkhead, but it's not noted on the survey
there.
MS. MESIANO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I just wanted to be
sure --
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
relationship between
and the survey cause
appearing anywhere
MEMBER SIMON:
-- that I understood the
the Notice of
there's no 12
on here.
Right.
Disapproval
feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: The 16 foot to what
appeared to be on the --
MS. MESIANO: Yes. I know the survey
started to get a little bit --
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a lot of numbers
on here.
MR. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: And not all the ones that
we're looking for.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so now I know
that the Notice is basically here from the --
that's 12 feet.
MS. MESIANO: I'm trying to address all
of the items in the Notice of Disapproval and
I just wanted to state my facts.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's what our
concern is we have two maps, Ms. Mesiano, and
the issue is we have a site plan and we have a
survey and I don't know which one to
deliberate on, to be honest with you.
MS. MESIANO: I would prefer that you use
the survey because that's the one that we've
worked on most intensively and all of the data
that we gathered has been translated into the
survey because the architect is not
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now that's -- now
that's --
Alright, give me that again, Ms. Mesiano.
MS. MESIANO: I would like to work off of
the survey. We have tried to commit all of
the data that we've gathered to the survey to
make it as concise as possible. The
architect's involvement is minimal at this
point in time because we've a ways to go
between here and the final construction.
There's a lot of open issues so we're not
dealing with the architect at this point in
time. So to cut to the chase I would like to
work off the survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay,
I have, that I'm looking at
the survey
that is a survey
that shows 13 feet. Is that the correct one
that we're all using, cause I heard 12 on the
MS. MESIANO: Could you tell me what the
last revision date is on your survey?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: June 27, 2008.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, that's the most
current.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, what was the
date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: June 27, 2008.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 11.8 feet is what I've
got to the bulkhead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have 13.
MS. MESIANO: Leslie, to the bulkhead
they use the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Bulkhead.
BOARD ASST.: That's to the high water --
Measurement to the closest point of the
deck would appear to be from the step area and
that's not indicated on the survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MS. MESIANO: On the survey Metzger shows
me -- no it's confusing. It's the 12.6 at the
elevation not the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, right.
MS. MESIANO: And he has 15 feet measured
perpendicular from the bulkhead to the corner
of the steps and that's what (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, this looks like it's
to the high water mark (inaudible), but that's
to the neighbor's bulkhead, I believe, right?
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MS. MESIANO: That is to the bulkhead
that is off of the property. There's actually
no bulkhead that's on our property.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's to the wood edging
and the (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: The measurement to the wood
edging on your property would be, I guess the
Board's asking for that measurement to know
the closest corner --
MS. MESIANO: At the closest corner
appears to be 11.5 feet.
Since we were dealing with a number of
overlapping setback issues, I've tried to
handle it individually. Essentially the
required rear setback, as far as the back
yard, rear setback is 35 feet. There's
actually 6 feet of the dwelling itself that
encroaches into that 35-foot setback from the
property line and I have the measurements for
the deck, but I'll get to that if you don't
mind.
Okay. Alright, I think I stated that the
proposed improvements exceed 50 percent
pursuant to FEMA standards, therefore we have
to conform to their regulations. The existing
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
house is located in a flood zone AEll. FEMA
requires the first floor elevation be equal to
or greater than the base flood elevation plus
2. The existing elevation at the grade of the
house is 6.8. The existing first floor is --
let me back up, 6 feet 8 inches. The existing
first floor elevation 11 feet. The proposed
first floor elevation is 13 feet per FEMA regs
and again, as the previous was dealing with,
we're needing to raise the basement fill the
basement partially to come into conformance
with FEMA regulations, which is driving a lot
of this project. The existing basement is
approximately 4.2 feet deep and to conform to
the FEMA regs the basement needs to be raised
2 feet. The proposed house, exclusive of the
basement, has an overall height of
approximately 26.5 feet. The existing house,
exclusive of the basement, has an overall
height of approximately 16.5 feet.
The footprint of the structure will not
change except for the extension for the front
porch to the southwest corner and the proposed
deck will be reduced in overall size
increasing the setback by approximately 7
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
feet. The existing lot coverage is 30.9
percent. Our proposed lot coverage is 29.5
percent. We are proposing a lot coverage
reduction of 69 square feet, 1.4 percent less
than existing.
The area subject to rear setback relief
is 6 square feet of the house. The area of
the proposed house subject to side yard relief
is 102.4 square feet on the west side and 56
square feet on the east side. The total of
244.8 square feet of the deck is subject to
side yard and rear yard relief and with
respect to the item in the Disapproval
concerning setback from the bluff, the
entirety of the property is within 75 feet of
the bulkhead. This is a preexisting lot, the
setbacks are as established. So I just needed
to state that.
The proposed activity is necessary to
bring the house into compliance with the
current building codes. I'd like to add also
that the house is falling into disrepair
because there's nothing that's a simple fix.
It's at a point where the mechanicals need to
be replaced. There's an ongoing leaky
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
problem. I'm sure one of you must have
inspected the property and you noticed that
tarps are on the roof. They're on their third
tarp at the cost of $600.00 and went in today
to find that the bedroom ceiling had collapsed
because they can't just patch the roof
anymore. The roof has to be replaced, so
we're trying to preserve what's there until we
can get through the process. This is a
situation where the property is in the family,
it's stayed in the family. It's being
converted for use as a living residence, not
just a summer camp, but in its current
condition now with the leaking roof, the roof
needed to be replaced entirely. It's not just
a simple fix-it job, it's the roof needs to be
replaced. So I'll go from there.
I know it's always the Board's concern
when someone is proposing to construct a
second-story addition that there might be an
ulterior motive to knock down an existing
structure and rebuild from scratch once the
permits are obtained. That is not the
intention at all. We've had the property
inspected by an engineer. The foundation and
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December 4, 2008
the first floor of the structure were found to
be structurally sound so as to support a
second story.
MEMBER OLIVA: Could we have a letter
stating that from the engineer?
MS. MESIANO: I don't have a letter
because he had intended to attend this morning
and he was unable to attend.
MEMBER OLIVA: But you can get the
letter?
MS. MESIANO: I can provide you with the
letter.
MEMBER OLIVA: You still have to go up 2
feet anyway for FEMA.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, we do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But there's an
entire second story going on the structure, so
you're basically ripping off the first story
and putting a second story on.
MS. MESIANO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Once --
MS. MESIANO: No, we're ripping off the
roof of the first story. We're not ripping
off the first story. We're raising -- we're
going to lift the first floor to increase the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
height of the basement and I have a note on
the plan, I think it's on the second page, as
to how that will be accomplished.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: And then the second floor
will be added to the first floor and I'll get
into that. Let's see -- the -- of course
along with the structural deficiencies that
we're now facing, we need to upgrade the
mechanicals and increase the energy efficiency
of the house. We're looking into solar, some
type of solar implementation as far as energy
conservation is concerned. So the owners of
the property are making a substantial
investment, at the same time trying to be
mindful of the site, the site conditions, etc.
If you look at the plans that we've submitted,
it's really as modest as we could propose and
still create something that has value relative
to its cost.
The house -- I just want to make two
other points. With respect to the LWRP, I
believe they found that the house portion of
the project was consistent and only the new
deck was found to be inconsistent, but I offer
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
up that the increase of the setback of the new
deck could be a mitigating factor towards that
as well as the fact that the deck will, of
course, be raised because that's what is
driving this whole situation, FEMA compliance,
and there will be actually less ground
disturbance, less yard to maintain. So I
think there are mitigating factors with
respect to that and the fact that the deck is
being reduced in overall size and the setback
is being increased.
Soil and Water Conservation Board's
letter made mention of storm water runoff and,
of course, drywells would be implemented.
That has not been designed at this point
because we do have a very shallow groundwater
condition. So that would be completed in the
engineering phase as we get further into the
Health Department because we're going to have
to work the retaining wall for the septic
system, the containment for the storm water
runoff, so we're not oblivious to the fact
that it needs to be done, but it is premature
for us to finish that engineering, at this
point, but I would hope that it would suffice
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
to say that proper storm water containment
will be part of the overall plan at the point
in time that the house is constructed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't want you to
think that this is a statement that's
derogatory, but I have to tell you that in
situations like this, we do Sound Beach Road
all the time by one particular consultant and
she brings us in a model. This is very, very
difficult, Mrs. Mesiano, to visualize without
a model and I really think you need to do
that. I realize that you're still -- this is
an out of the box first hearing before this
Board, but I really, really need a model to
understand this entire process particularly
the height of those decks or the main deck
facing the water, okay, and the overall impact
of this building based upon FEMA requirements
on this rather small piece of property and I
have to tell you again that we do this all the
time and we have also done it on Bay Shore
Road with another architect, alright, but we
really need a model. I need a model on this.
I really can't visualize this, I have to tell
you, and I've been down there twice looking at
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
this project, but that would help out
immensely. It would help me immensely.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to follow up
Gerry's remark, is some of the statements,
numbers and so forth look pretty good. The
ingenuity that's going into it looks pretty
good. Much of the rest is confusing. I've
been down a couple of times, too, and I'm
trying to not only to look at it, but I'm
trying to visualize what it will look like and
to be able to get from what I see to what I
see here and, yes, I would be very grateful if
there were something to help those people who
are spatially unimaginative, spatially
challenged perhaps, like me, to be able to
grasp the project a little bit more
effectively.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're just throwing
it out to you, we want you to continue.
MS. MESIANO: Okay. I would like to
address the letter of objection that was
submitted by Sonia Stein and I'd like to just
go item by item because there are some things
that are not exactly factual.
First, Ms. Stein refers to demolition of
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
the existing building. We are not proposing
to demolish the existing building. I want to
make that very clear; we are not demolishing
the existing building. It's being raised; the
foundation is being raised by 2 feet under it.
MEMBER OLIVA: Per the FEMA regulations.
MS. MESIANO: Per the FEMA regulations,
yes.
the adjacent lot. I know it's
Ms. Stein states that she is the owner of
a minor
subject, but I also know that we must be
factual and meticulous, so I have to say also
that she is not the adjacent property owner.
Lot #12 is a 10-foot wide parcel owned by
Suffolk County through which a drainage pipe
directs storm water runoff into Goldsmith's
inlet.
The separation distance she refers to as
being very close to her cottage, only a few
feet, etc. the separation distance between the
Stein house and Schneider house is at least 16
feet and I derive that number because we have
a 6.8 foot existing side yard on the east side
and lot #12 is 10 feet; therefore, we have
16.8 feet and I do not know what setback the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Stein property maintains on its own lot.
I've seen this Board grant variances with
numbers similar to those I've just listed
here.
So
So it's not any closer to any cottage
communities --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Standing in front of the
One question.
house on Mill Road
the Stein house is to the right or to the
left?
MS. MESIANO: Yes. The Stein house is to
the right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. MESIANO: Ms. Stein refers to the
Trustees' hearing and she made other
statements about converting the cottage
drastically, etc. We have taken this to the
Trustees a year ago, at which time the
Trustees tabled this pending the outcome of
this hearing. So this is no different than
what we have been working on for the past year
and a half. There is no -- the inference in
her letter is negative and I'm trying to
offset that by the fact that the intention is
above board and there's nothing untoward being
developed here.
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The proposed height is within the
allowable height per Town Code. Again, FEMA
compliance is dictating all of the height.
Were this property located on an interior
upland lot, they wouldn't be even having this
discussion because we wouldn't be dealing with
the FEMA issue.
Also, in the letter from Ms. Stein, she
makes reference to a four-bedroom house and I
just want to make it perfectly clear that the
increase in living area is being accomplished
by means of the second story addition so as to
establish -- so as to maintain the established
setbacks. The existing structure consists of
a 1-1/2 story frame dwelling with a kitchen,
mechanical room, living and dining room, two
bedrooms, one bath and a sleeping loft. The
proposed dwelling will be a two-story framed
dwelling with a kitchen, living room, dining
room, mechanical room, two bedrooms, two baths
and an open loft. The open loft I refer to is
just a mezzanine area that's created by part
of the second floor. So the primary
difference is that we're adding one bedroom or
keeping the same number of bedrooms. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
sleeping loft that I referenced is the area on
the second level of this house, but it is
certainly not within the parameters of the
building Codes and it is not, I don't believe
it is considered habitable space under the
existing pre-CO. So we're not changing the
intensity of the use of the house. We're not
trying to build a four-bedroom house where
presently or previously a two-bedroom house
existed. We are accomplishing the same
utility to current standards. We don't have
ceiling heights -- many issues don't conform
to current Codes.
Again, I think someone spoke about
vegetation. There is hedging around the
property, it's very well screened. We intend
to maintain that. Ms. Stein makes a reference
to obstruction of light and air to her
property and I'd like to give the Board a copy
of the Google Earth maps and if you look at
them and I've noted on here who's Stein, who's
Schneider because the properties are located
on a curve the Stein house is actually more
forward, if you will, of the Schneider house.
The -- I have photographs for you as well.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
The back corner of the Schneider house is
forward of the front corner -- let me start
again. The back corner of the Stein house is
forward of the rear corner -- whoops said that
wrong again. The back corner of the Stein
house is forward of the front corner of the
Schneider house. I have some photographs that
might make that easier to assimilate. I will
give you some photographs that might clarify a
couple of these things.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MS. MESIANO: So I don't know if I've
clarified the issue of the proximity of the
Schneider house to the Stein property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the Google shows
it there.
MS. MESIANO: Okay and that I don't agree
with the obstruction of light, air, etc,
privacy and other issues that were mentioned.
One more issue or item I'd like to raise
is the fact that February 23, 1999 this Board
made a determination for application #4658
Bartos, tax map 67-7-14 at 1820 Mill Road in
Peconic and that request was for a reduction
in the setback from the bulkhead. They had a
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27.6-foot setback from the bulkhead, requested
23 feet and the application was granted.
There was a deck involved, the square footage
of the house I won't read it, I'll just
reference it and ask you to put it into the
record, but it is a similar issue because of
the constraints of the existing setbacks that
are established because these
nonconforming and also I have
that house (inaudible).
are preexisting
a photograph of
BOARD ASST.: Do you have a copy of that
decision, handy? Thank you.
MS. MESIANO: You asked about screening
of the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: You'd have to take down
some of those trees just to get some of the
heavy equipment in to lift that house up.
MS. MESIANO: It will be pruned, you
know, as needed, but I think it's the owners'
intention to maintain as much screening and
privacy as is practical.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is the Bartos
house, right, or the former Bartos --
MS. MESIANO: Yes and that -- the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
expansion and renovation of that house is at
least, if not more ambitious, than that we
propose.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you done Ms.
Mesiano?
BOARD ASST.: She was going to give us a
copy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, you're going to
give us a copy of it. Yes, okay.
MS. MESIANO: I think in closing, the
work that needs to be done on the house is
imperative that it needs to be done because
the house is falling into disrepair because
we're going through this process and we can't
just patch anything. It's intended to be an
owner-occupied house. It's been in the family
for quite a number of years. The owner of the
house is here if she'd like to make a
statement or if you have any questions for
her.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you first.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I have questions of
So you're going to
get for us a letter from the architect telling
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
us that the first floor of this house is able
to be used and utilized as the first floor of
the new home?
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, or the
renovated home. Number two, I need to ask you
regarding the sewage system, I know it's a
septic tank that's it all-encompassing the
front yard. Is there any reason why that
septic tank can't be moved over so that you
can have flat access to the waterfront area on
the 6.8 side of the house?
MS. MESIANO: There is no waterfront on
that side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't say there
was waterfront. No, I need from the gravel
driveway why the gravel driveway can't be
extended to the entire side yard.
MS. MESIANO: I will have to ask the
engineer. I believe it has to do with the
requirements of the separation between the
septic tank and the leaching pools. This --
MEMBER OLIVA:
water?
MS. MESIANO:
You don't have public
No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I'm saying is
it only further exacerbates the ability to get
to the front yard for fire and emergency
purposes -- excuse me, the rear yard, for fire
and emergency purposes. Okay and I mean this
is like all encompassing here and you said it
and we're aware of it, but I mean it is
significantly all encompassing and I've seen
these systems built. They do take up a
tremendous amount of room.
MS. MESIANO: But again, it's necessary
for protection of the groundwater to maintain
proper separation of the groundwater and the
bottom of the leaching pools.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am aware of that,
but there is really no ability to get to the
waterfront. This is going to be elevated
three feet, the house is going to be elevated
another 2 or 3 feet,
an edifice out there,
that's number two.
it's going to look like
but (inaudible) to say,
Number three would be back to number one
and that is if the house not able to be lifted
after actually physically severing it from its
existing foundation, I suspect the only thing
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
left to do then is to demolish it assuming the
architect -- I'm not questioning the integrity
of the architect, I'm just saying that we have
run into this 50 percent of the time.
MS. MESIANO: I know that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, or more,
alright and on inland lots not on waterfront
lots. A significant amount of them on
waterfront lots, I can think of two on Nassau
Point just recently and both of them were
inside and I can think of one in Southold,
Greenport actually that we worked several
hearings on.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Alright.
MS. MESIANO: It's a question, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MS. MESIANO: If that were the case, I am
aware of the fact that we would need to come
back to this Board for further relief. I'm
not unaware of that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
concern that I have. The
I know and that's a
fourth thing that
I'm concerned about is the ability to service
this house on one's own property. This has
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
been a new thing that we've been dealing with,
that I've been dealing with, okay.
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is on the
6.8 side, are you going to be able to stretch
a ladder up to the roof of this house, okay,
for either the maintenance of the house or
fire emergency purposes? Okay and I need the
engineer to give me an evaluation on that.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Fifthly, I need a
model. I have no other way of determining
this house without a model.
MS. MESIANO: Let me just ask if a more
detailed rendering would do. We're running
into -- you know, when you're spending $2
Million Dollars on a house the cost of the
model is insignificant compared to the whole,
but when you're trying to do the right thing,
comply with all of the regulations, satisfy
the Board, the models are not inexpensive and
if there's any way that a better prepared
rendering would suffice because it's --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you
that we kind of kid the young lady that comes
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
in from down on Sound Beach Road in the
respect that she does them herself, alright.
It is not the exact depictual model of every
element of the home.
MEMBER WEISMAN: She's not an architect.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She's not an
architect, she is a contractor.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They're kind of glued
together. May I make a suggestion though?
Before a three-dimensional version, if in fact
in-house is fine, that it would be expensive
if an architect was asked to do a chip-board
model. What we're talking about is what is
what would be called a massing model. You
don't have to have windows and, you know, it's
basically the contour of the land, the
elevation, ground floor, and the shell of the
building, and you know decks. What they're
trying to visualize is how the existing house
sitting on the property is going to be
transformed relative to where the road is and
where the water is.
Another way to do that is an exploded
axonometric drawing, which is a sort of three-
dimensional looking down on the building and
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
it really looks like the house as opposed to
the flat elevations that are hard to imagine.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, the schematics.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That is -- that kind of
drawing is considerably less money to do if
you need to have a professional to do it than
to do a model. It takes much less time and I
believe that the architect could generate one
looking from the water and one from the road.
It likely would provide enough visual
information for those on the Board who want to
better understand the massing of the building
sitting on its site. It might work.
MS. MESIANO: Yes. If I could be given
that leeway because I'm aware of the cost
factor to the client and I'm also aware of the
Board's requirements and getting it to this
point is extremely expensive.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to add my
input on this, which is somewhere in between.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: When I looked at the map
and looked at the property and was confused, I
really believed and I still believe,
especially with Leslie's remarks, a lot more
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
could be done to help people like me to
understand it short of building a physical
three-dimensional model. I think there is
room there for improving its articulateness,
if you will.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It can be done by hand.
You know, usually a scale drawing --
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I understand that. I
have absolutely no abilities in that line.
I've given up trying. So you know, if someone
-- I would have to contract it out. If you
don't mind, could you spell the phase?
MEMBER WEISMAN: First, let me see if
Gerry would you be amenable to trying that
first before --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no objection
to trying it. I just don't know if it's going
to fix --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well if that's an
agreeable compromise --
MS. MESIANO: If I can at least price
both items and if that is close to doing
Gerry's preferred method maybe the client
would be amenable to spending that kind of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
money, if it's significantly less it might be
worth a try. If we have to go the second
step, we will, but I'd like to have the
opportunity to shop it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MS. MESIANO: Because I am aware of the
cost factor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want you to
be aware of exactly what Ms. Weisman said and
that is we're not interested in windows --
MS. MESIANO: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- we're not
interested in anything, you know, we would
like to see the top roof come off and see what
was inside on the second story because it's
brand new, but it doesn't even have to be, you
know, just windows and roof sizes that's all.
It doesn't even have to be to -- but just the
way it's laid out, that's basically it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The type of drawing is
called an exploded --
MS. MESIANO: Oh, exploded.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, axonometric, A-X-
O-N-O-M-E-T-R-I-C, and it will just show the
outside, but you'd be kind of looking down at
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the interior with the walls and the roof would
be kind of hovering above it.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I know what it is, I
just didn't know what the name of it was.
Okay, alright.
BOARD ASST.: It can be glued on and it
doesn't have to be architecturally --
MS. MESIANO: Like I said, my artistic
abilities extend to, you know, barely a
straight line.
BOARD ASST.: You don't have to go to an
architect you may be able to shop in other
areas.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: Cathy, I would also like
you to pay very strict attention to
{inaudible) I never could pronounce his last
name. If you call him up he tells you his
last name, the Soil and Water report --
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
MEMBER OLIVA: -- because if you had been
here on Tuesday night about some things about
the Goldsmith Inlet one person got up either
for or against removing the jetty, but the
quality of the water in the inlet is what
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
we're concerned about.
MS. MESIANO: Yes,
I've
I'm aware of that.
discussed that with the Trustees, which
is one reason why I make note of the fact that
the County-owned strip of land has an outflow
pipe dumping into the inlet and that is a far
more significant runoff problem than some
storm water from this house, but
the need for onsite containment.
with the Trustees and, you know,
note the fact that it's becoming
because there's not enough tidal
(inaudible). So I am aware of that --
MEMBER OLIVA: No, right.
MS. MESIANO: -- and that's why I would
like to defer the drainage portion of this to
my Trustees' application because they delve
more deeply into that. I know that this Board
is concerned, but I think that Board probably
has greater authority over that issue, but
suffice it to say that
water containment, but
with them.
MEMBER OLIVA:
I understand
I was there
Jim King did
stagnant
flush
Are you replacing those
wooden strips along the edge of the property?
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there will be storm
I'd like to work it out
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MS. MESIANO:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MS. MESIANO:
NO.
The only land disturbance
that we anticipate will be any digging
necessary for the removal and replacement of
the deck and that's not full excavation. That
would be digging, you know, the pourings for
the supports for the new deck. The front
yard, of course, will be disturbed because of
the need for the retaining wall for the septic
system and if it's possible to cut that wall
back and perhaps grade it into some steps for
access into the yard, I'll make sure that
that's done because it is a 2-foot rise. It's
not impossible to scale in an emergency, but I
understand your point.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My point is it
takes 11-1/2 feet to pull a ladder truck in
that area, okay, and then to turn that ladder
around and point it toward the house. You
really can't back the truck in, alright?
MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a lot of times and I'm not
And that is needed
a member of this
fire department in Southold, but I've been a
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member of Mattituck for 31 years.
MS. MESIANO: Right, I understand. With
respect to your question about a ladder and
accessing the roof from the east side with the
smaller setback, it would be possible to set
the ladder on the deck to get to that roof.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only in some cases.
MS. MESIANO: You have a far less fall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that,
but in fire and emergency purposes you
wouldn't put the ladder anyplace, but
(inaudible).
MS. MESIANO: Well, I won't discuss the
layout of the house now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to move
along on this.
MS. MESIANO: Yup, yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to ask
any Board Member if they would like to
question what Ms. Mesiano has presented to us
and then I would like to move on to the public
and I would like to inform the public that we
have all intentions of recessing this hearing
with a date pending the information that we're
going to receive from Ms. Mesiano and
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hopefully that day will be February 19. We'll
see what the calendar looks like at that
particular point and that's where we are.
Anybody? No.
Okay, in the public, would anybody like
to speak for or against that, would you use
this podium over here? Anybody?
Seeing no hands, do we have room on
February 19th, Linda?
BOARD ASST.: You have one carryover for
the 19th at 1:30. So if this one were at 2:00
it's just testimony, 2:00 or 2:30, what do you
want to do?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, 2:00. Okay,
I make a motion adjoining this hearing to
February 19t~.
BOARD ASST.: It's a Thursday meeting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6218 - Charles and Susan Geitz
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variance under Section 280-
116A(2), based on the Building Inspector's
June 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
an as-built deck as reconstructed with a
setback of less then 100 feet from the
ordinary high-water mark of the Long Island
Sound, at 1580 Leeton Drive, Southold; CMT
1000-58-2-5."
Is there anyone here to address this
application?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, would you
kindly state your name?
MR. GEITZ: Charles Geitz.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Geitz, this deck is
as-built. It was rebuilt, I take it from --
MR. GEITZ: Yes, the old one was taken
off to (inaudible) underneath to lift the
house up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh.
MR. GEITZ: The (inaudible) were rotted
out, one (inaudible) fell partly off at 8
inches at the top it (inaudible) where the
deck, in fact (inaudible) back in.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And did you replace the
deck exactly as -- in terms of what was there
previously?
MR. GEITZ: Exactly the same size.
MEMBER WEISMAN: My only question really
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
is why the variance wasn't sought before the
deck was replaced.
MR. GEITZ: I didn't know anything about
it. I had the permits from the -- the
Trustees' permit said take the deck off, put
deck back on and I had no problems.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How is it that you came
to find out that you needed a variance?
MR. GEITZ: I don't know. Somebody
called, somebody did a lot of homework to find
out that there was no permit for the deck
cause the deck wasn't on the original plans.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see.
MR. GEITZ: And that's the only way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, so when you got a
building permit to rebuild, to raise the --
MR. GEITZ: Yes,
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the foundation
Right, the deck
replacement was not on those plans?
MR. GEITZ: The deck was not on the
plans, the original plans.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so you didn't
get a permit for that deck cause if you had
put that --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. GEITZ: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you had put that
proposed reconstructed deck on the plans for
which you got a permit originally, then the
Building Inspector probably would have
triggered a Notice of Disapproval to come
before this Board to get the variance that
you're now seeking after the fact.
MR. GEITZ: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I just want the
record to reflect the circumstances under
which you came before this Board. Is there
anything that you want to say in particular
about --
MR. GEITZ: (Inaudible) my wife
(inaudible) it's over 40 years that the other
deck was on the front of the house, the one
side of the house, and it's the same thing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Well, maybe some
of the other Board members will have some
questions. I'm okay for now.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER SIMON: Just from what I
understand is that the house was raised up --
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MR. GEITZ: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- so that the staircase
that runs down from the front of the rebuilt
deck is longer and higher than it had been?
MR. GEITZ: Yes, one foot higher.
MEMBER SIMON: It's a new structure and
does the bottom of that stairway then extend
further out closer to the bulkhead than the
previous one before the house had to be
raised?
MR. GEITZ: I'm sorry. I'm not really
following you.
MEMBER SIMON: The difference between the
bottom of the new stairway --
MR. GEITZ: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: -- the distance between
that and the bulkhead, is that greater or the
same as it was with regard to the original
deck, which was lower down because the house
was lower down?
MR. GEITZ: The other deck had a ramp
coming down and then it was level going out to
the bulkhead.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. GEITZ: And the distance between now
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the bottom of the stairs and the bulkhead is a
little bit shorter.
MEMBER SIMON: It's shorter.
MR. GEITZ: The ramp is --
MEMBER SIMON: So the ramp actually did
not reach as close -- did not go as close to
the bulkhead as the bottom of the stairs does
now?
MR. GEITZ: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have no plans
of ever enclosing this deck?
MR. GEITZ: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It shall remain
open to the sky?
MR. GEITZ: That's it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's it.
MR. GEITZ: I'm done. The grandkids
worry about (inaudible) they wouldn't close it
in. They would move.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you wouldn't
have any objection to us putting a condition
that it remain open to the sky?
MR. GEITZ: No problem whatsoever.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
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Let's see what develops.
Is there anybody in the audience who
would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6227 Frank Scarola
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Requests for: (1) a Special Exception
under Section 280-13B for conversion of an
existing building to a two-family dwelling,
and (2) Variances under Sections 280-13A and
280-14, based on the Building Inspector's
amended September 10, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval, stating that: (a) conversion of
two accessory buildings for use as wine
storage is a non-permitted use, and (b) that
the lot size is required to be 160,000 square
feet for a two-family dwelling. Zone
District: Agricultural-Conservation Zone
District. Location of Property: 4850 Sound
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 1000-121-3-6."
Ruth, this is yours.
MEMBER OLIVA: I know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything you'd like
to say to Mr. Gorman before we start?
MEMBER OLIVA: No. I'd like him to start
explaining the whole thing to me, I mean I was
there, but I didn't get inside. What I had
eaten the night before didn't agree with my
stomach so I thought I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What happened, Mr.
Gorman, was we came to you first, Mr. Simon
and myself, and remember we told you we were
going to another location.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We went to the bay
after that and just missed Ms. Oliva so she
must have come back after you guys had left.
MR. GORMAN: Oh okay. So no one was
there. The owner wasn't there either. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
own, but it was open.
one of the barns so I
Well, I was there on my
Someone was working in
just took myself
completely through the whole structure.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
You all remember what that used to be.
BOARD ASST.: Would you introduce your
name again?
MR. GORMAN: I'm Bill Gorman on behalf of
Frank Scarola.
BOARD ASST.: And your company name is?
MR. GORMAN: North Fork Permits.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. GORMAN: That used to be, just
recently, most recently it was a very high
volume storage area for heavy construction
equipment and lawncare guys and they have race
cars in there and mechanics that were working
for, you know, on cars for race tracks in
Riverhead. They had a tractor repair guy.
That was nice the guy put the tractors out in
the front yard once in a while. So it was
like that for, I don't know, 12 years or so.
Before that it was a barn -- it was supposed
to be a storage facility and grading facility
for potatoes. So unfortunately they never got
COs on those buildings. They had Special
Exceptions in the 60s, built the buildings,
never finished them and got COs.
So when Mr. Scarola got the property he
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
was put in the position where he had to
satisfy all the violations in which they're
in. There were 11 tenants in there when he
bought the place and he had to evict all the
tenants, take care of a number of the building
issues, electrical and plumbing issues, had to
gut certain areas of the building that didn't
have permission to be there, one in particular
was an office. He did all that and began --
we got the permits to build a single-family
house to convert the barn up front into a
single-family house and then this thing just
started taking -- we figured we would have
some opportunities to do something with all of
these barns because the theory was who would
ever possibly need what is actually 12,000
square feet of storage space for a single-
family residence.
So we were clear with the Building
Department that this was just the beginning
phase, that we were going to try to either get
an apartment, a two-family, we were going to
try to get some sort of commercial storage or
some agricultural storage capability out of
the buildings back there just because it
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
warrants it and we figured as long as we could
keep it low key that we wouldn't have any
objection. In fact, we got a letter from one
of the neighbors that -- and this may be all
I've seen that is in support of it provided
there's not a tasting room. I think the
reason is because they pass Martha Clara
Vineyards and they see what a tasting room can
be like and they don't want anything like
that, but I think the reason that that came up
that was when we were talking about doing all
sorts of things and those new -- the new
farmstand regulations came out not so long
ago.
So we were trying to see if we could fit
into that category and, of course, we couldn't
so that was abandoned. So there's not going
to be a tasting room, that's just an
unsubstantiated rumor. It may have come up
when one of the neighbors came by, you know,
because at some point there was talk about it,
but that's not what we're intending to do.
What we would like to do is make that
front barn two-family and do commercial wine
storage in the rear or, if not commercial wine
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
storage, then storage for the surrounding
wineries or vineyards because there are a lot
of little boutique wineries that don't have
much storage space and we could store the nets
and maybe tractor parts and, you know, other
things associated to farm or wineries that are
not quite caught up in their own storage space
needs and that's what we're here to do.
I understand, you know, no one needs --
we're certainly aware of the scope of our
variance, there's no -- we're aware of that
and -- but the question still remains what do
you do with all of that and, if there isn't a
viable use for it, what's the purpose of
fixing it up, maintaining it for something
that will be forever vacant because Mr.
Scarola doesn't have a need for 12,000 square
feet of storage, personally.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How big are the
barns in the back?
MR. GORMAN: There's a 6,000 square foot
barn, a 4,000 square foot barn and a 2,000
square foot barn.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You mean storage space.
MR. GORMAN: Storage space.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. GORMAN:
survey, I think,
4.
In the rear.
In this packet there's a
that lists building 1, 2,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: You have that? The small
version of it, okay. So building 2 is the
6,000 square foot building and building 3 is
the 4,000 square foot building and then
building 4 is the 2,000 square foot building
and building 1 is our proposed two-family.
MEMBER DINIZIO: How big is that?
MR. GORMAN: That is -- we just did a
flooring (inaudible) so livable space is 5500
square feet of livable space.
BOARD ASST.: That's proposed, right?
MR. GORMAN: Well, that is -- there's an
unfinished section, that long narrow section
sort of to the south is unfinished and it's
going to have a garage door on either end and,
you know, something in the middle, it's
undetermined, at this point, what's in the
middle, but that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: What are you going to
use that for?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. GORMAN: It's just -- what the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The -- that already has
a garage door on either end.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah, right now it's just
going to be a garage, hopefully, two families.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Certainly in no way is
this perceived as a garage. It's got very
high ceilings, it's got residential windows in
it, it's got a garage door on either side, but
there's no partition in the middle. It really
is -- that's what, cause when I was in there,
it struck me as something that could either be
-- it certainly isn't typical of a garage, nor
is it typical of storage because of the nature
of the windows, the elevations and so on. So
I was very perplexed as to what the real
proposed use is going to be.
MR. GORMAN: Well, it is going to be
garage on either end. We actually had extra
doors and windows from our order when we
changed the configuration of the front of the
building and we changed the sides as well, we
had some egress issues and so we put those in
the middle and maybe that might be an
extension of the living area in the future,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
but right now it's just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it is attached to the
habitable space and --
MR. GORMAN: It is attached, but closed
off. It's closed off. I mean it is attached,
agreed, but it is closed off. It may in the
future become another section of the living
area, but at this point it is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks as though it
could easily be some sort of woodworking shop
or something like that.
MR. GORMAN: Well,
be.
that's what it used to
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: It's not right now and I'm
here to represent to you that this is going to
be garage right now. As far as we're
concerned, it is a garage on either end.
There's going to be a wall somewhere in an
appropriate place to divide up the two
garages. Mr. Scarola would like to have one
of those garages for his use and then,
hopefully, one of the two-family tenants would
use the other one. He would -- by the way,
that would be the one on the west would be the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
two-family tenant garage. Again, it's
possible in the future that would be expanded
as part of the -- as part of one of the living
spaces. It's just not -- at this time, we
want to see how this thing goes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's where the
problem lies and some Board members may
disagree with this because after going over
there and seeing the size of that 5500 square,
the issue of a Special Exception, and I may be
incorrect on this, is kind of unique because
the standards usually of a Special Exception
cannot be varianced, okay. We understand the
use. If the place was owner occupied, we
could grant, as the nature of owner occupancy,
I could grant, I'm talking for the Board.
MR. GORMAN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm saying the
Board could grant an accessory apartment,
okay?
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But it is not owner
occupied because Mr. Scarola doesn't intend to
occupy it. So now comes the situation of
almost the 50 percent variance based upon the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
square footage of the property; however, as I
just said to you, that is not a Special Permit
with those particular standards that we can
vary. If it was a variance, maybe that would
be different. Okay, you applied for a Special
Permit, a Special Exception to our --
BOARD ASST.: What's the condition? Just
the (inaudible)?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the
condition is that
acres?
MR. GORMAN:
it's almost -- it's at 2.1
Yeah, 2.1 acres.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's looking for 4.
MR. GORMAN: 2.2, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He needs 4 for a
two-family. So there's where that particular
problem lies.
MEMBER SIMON:
It's a variance, it's not
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When we did -- well
it's an area variance,
Exception.
BOARD ASST.:
(inaudible) Code
but it's also a Special
But it's not a condition
requirement the lot size.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. GORMAN: We're requesting an area
variance and then we went and did an
additional Special Exception variance in this
interpretation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAN: So I thought we covered it
all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The use variance is the
winery storage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. GORMAN: Right, but the -- I guess
I'm a little confused because we are -- we did
do the area variance for the 2.2 acre parcel
for the undersized (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right. That's
correct, that's what the Notice says.
MR. GORMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
requests.
Okay.
Yeah, that's one of the
MEMBER WEISMAN: The other is the wine
storage is not a permitted --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm only taking it
from the first step. Okay.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I ask a question?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Concerning wine storage,
you know, when I read that I assumed you were
going to take cased wine
there.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What
was not that though here.
and pile it up in
you described to me
You said it would
be nets and stuff like that -- wait, wait, let
me finish. Certainly agricultural storage can
be done in the buildings. I don't see any
reason it can't be, it's on an agricultural
property, but wine storage is more of a
commercial-type use and I was wondering why
you were even bothering to ask for that.
MR. GORMAN: Wine storage?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah as opposed to
allowing boutique farm, boutique winery people
to store their stuff that they can't on their
own property, shy of case wine.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it there a --
Or barrel wine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, storing wine,
storing wine, basically storing the product,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the alcohol.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what's not
permitted. What's permitted is nets and
tractors and, you know, even probably the
equipment to make it, presses. You know, they
don't use -- they use certainly most of that I
would think.
MR. GORMAN: Well, Mr. Scarola fells like
there's more of a, more of a commercial return
off of wine storage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: So that's why --
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it's case wine?
MR. GORMAN: It's case wine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It is, but you didn't
state that. You said nets and --
MR. GORMAN: Today?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Today, right.
MR. GORMAN: Well, I was just saying
we're willing to be flexible.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I'm saying to you
if you want to be flexible take the wine
storage out of it and --
MR. GORMAN: We would like to be -- we
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
would like the wine storage, that would be
ideal, but how many nets can you store? You
know, that's still a lot, but --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well -- that's a
lot of nets.
MR. GORMAN: That's a lot of nets, that's
a lot of tractors.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I make a comment? I
mean I've learned a lot from other questions
and comments people have made. I'm sorry that
our attorney isn't here, but maybe people here
know the relevant law. See the issue of the
history, to me as a substantive matter, is
important about here's this sizeable piece of
property, which has a history of a use and the
structures on it and if we didn't know
anything at all about the Code it sounds like
the kind, to me anyway, the kinds of things
that are being proposed sounds like the sort
of things that might very well in a possible
world be made legal.
Now the question is since the existing
Code doesn't provide an easy route to that
result, the question is how do we do it?
Where can the Zoning Board do it? Where can
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
we grant variances and where can we not do it?
Does it require a change of the Code, for
example, in order to allow you to do something
like this or someone else to do something like
that on a similar property? That's the
problem as I see it. How do we get a handle
on it?
MR. GORMAN: Well, I might suggest that -
- well, I don't know really, I can't answer
that 100 percent, but I can go part way by
saying that these buildings were granted
Special Exceptions for potato grading and
storage. So it had a storage for food product
and, of course, you get to that question of
what is the finished product, but, you know, a
potato is a finished product and a bottle of
wine is a finished product. So the Special
Exception -- if they had done COs on these
buildings then the Special Exceptions would
still be in place to this day. It is
unfortunate that they never finished and got
the COs. The buildings were done, everything
was completed. They just didn't pay that
$25.00 fee and get the CO and so we're looking
for something along the lines of compassion.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
We're looking for something along the lines
that it's a Special Exception or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Potato storage --
MR. GORMAN: If it's Special Exception
variances were granted for all of these
things.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well potato
storage is an agricultural use and Jim's
right, case wine is a commercial use.
MEMBER SIMON: What's the difference
between wine storage and whiskey storage, for
example?
MEMBER OLIVA: You don't make whiskey.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The difference between
potatoes and wine storage is wine has to be
temperature controlled. That building has to
be more than just what it is right now.
MR. GORMAN: Correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It has to be insulated
and it has to be kept a certain degrees. It
has to have water, running water. It has to
have all this -- potato barns all they need is
a door --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Yeah, exactly.
-- when they're done.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: You have a problem.
MR. GORMAN: But under the specific --
under the Special Exemption had that had a --
had they gotten a CO and the Special Exemption
were in place today, would -- I mean would you
all be objecting to wine storage now? I guess
you're saying that you would be.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You still need
interpretation.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We may not have even
seen it.
MR. GORMAN: That's what I'm -- I know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well you could ask for
an interpretation and that would be part of
the {inaudible).
MR. GORMAN: Mr. Scarola is so above
board and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I'm
saying they're interpreting it now.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, but I mean I think
you would go up to the Building Inspector with
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
a Special Exception saying you were storing
potatoes there and now you want to store wine
there --
MR. GORMAN:
shrugged.
He probably would have
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you may have just
gotten a building permit and you may have
never been here for that particular reason.
You've got enough problems. You know,
apartments here and the whole nine
you want
yards.
MR.
GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just a follow up on the
apartment question. If Mr. Scarola is not
going to occupy the house and the proposal now
is to create a two-family dwelling, what is
the intent? Are they both to be rented out at
market rate or what?
MR. GORMAN: Exactly, he intends to use
the southern apartment, but he doesn't want to
commit. He's got two other properties. He's
got a property in Southold, he's got a
property in Mattituck and he lives in Garden
City. So whether he rents it out or not, I
don't know. I have to -- we have to assume he
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
will. I guess that's what we have to do is
assume that he's going to rent both out, but
you can see the amount of work that's going
into that. He's not -- this is going to be --
the tenants are going to be screened and this
is going to be a low-key -- we've got garages
to hide the cars. You haven't even seen the
landscape, you know, the landscape plan is a
whole ~nother thing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you just give
us a, you know, could you ask him that
question for us if he intends to utilize
either one of those apartments?
MR. GORMAN: He does and I think he
discussed it with --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Using it and living
there --
MR. GORMAN: I'm just saying I'm not
going to stand here and represent to you that
he's going to live there, but I know that when
I was -- just because I was witness when he
was talking to Gerry that
he will.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
he said that one day
Yeah, he said that
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: But that's not the
subject of this particular application.
MR. GORMAN: I don't know, but that's to
get the apartment.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, you're asking for
two-family.
MR. GORMAN: I know, if he were to live
there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, no. Yeah, but
you're not asking us for that.
MR. GORMAN: If he were to -- no, I know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're going to
have to apply for that.
MR. GORMAN: I thought that's where we
were going.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, you can rent it if
you had a two-family, right?
MEMBER DINIZIO: You can do anything you
want.
MR. GORMAN: Yeah. So -- but he does
plan on being there. He's going to plant
grapes in the remaining area all along the
west side from the road all the way up to the
side. He's very, you know, he wants to invest
in the property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. GORMAN: But there has to be a return
of some sort.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. GORMAN: And look what -- his
commitment to the investment is quite clear by
now. He's really willing to do it, but now we
just need a reason to continue and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are there other two-
family houses in the area? Have you looked at
that?
MR. GORMAN: I don't think --
MEMBER WEISMAN: If we look at the
character of the neighborhood, are there any
other two-family dwellings anywhere around
there?
BOARD ASST.: There's four(Inaudible) on
the (inaudible) property, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's two houses.
BOARD ASST.: Two houses.
MR. GORMAN: Up at the end of the road,
the end of Kirkup there are two houses on a
lot.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but that's
different. That's different, two houses on a
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
lot may have a preexisting nonconforming CO on
a separate dwelling.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're looking at a
single structure to be divided to create an
attached two-family unit. That's a different
zone.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm trying to think of a
route. I mean, let's go back to when he
purchased the property. Lot's go back to what
he might have been thinking. He was, at that,
time free to decide to buy or not to buy.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: Is there any -- what would
be the most that he could have been guaranteed
had he applied, at the time he was buying the
property or found out about it, that he could
do with the property, how close would that be
to what is being asked for now because it's
nothing like it then he's really got a
problem. He made the wrong decision in buying
it. On the other hand, if a case could have
been made for doing something like what is now
being planned and that he might have gotten
that, at that time, than that gives, I think,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
a leg up on the plausibility on some kind of
an application now. I think you have to
reconstruct a possible -- a hypothetical
history is the way I
how different it was.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
can -- we don't even know
May I say something?
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the point I was
getting to, you know, in that, you know, you
could tone this application down to exactly
what it is that exists there now and get
yourself to the point where you've got
yourself buildings that are legal. You know,
that have Special Exceptions for agricultural
use and all of that and work your way towards
becoming more profitable. I understand that,
I think what you're asking for is like taking
a sledgehammer when you really don't need
that, you just need a pen. You just need to
finesse this a little bit more, you know,
don't ask us for wine storage when, you know,
storage of agricultural products will do, you
know, and the same with, I don't know, the
same with apartments. You know, I don't know
that in a zone that's supposed to be --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER DINIZIO: --
for one residence, okay,
that in half and add two
think that you're asking
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
other uses.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
160,000.
160,000 square feet
that you want to cut
residences, okay. I
for a lot.
Plus you have the
Right, right, plus the
other uses, but -- and they're not making this
land anymore. This is zoned high, you know,
for real high agricultural use. The Town
encourages this type of zoning certainly to
cut down on the population. We're now just
taking it and making it as though it were just
a regular lot, I'm not seeing much use in
that. I'm not seeing much benefit to the Town
at all in that and any reason why anybody else
wouldn't want to come and do the same thing.
I'm not giving you advice, I'm just, you know,
I understand. I'm listening to your story,
especially about the Special Exception and
about the fact that, you know, someone didn't
bother to go for the CO, okay.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It happens all the time.
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It's not something you should be punished for,
you should be able to go and get the CO and be
able to read the record, but that doesn't
happen. I think your application and people
who know me know I swing the other way,
normally, I think you're asking for a lot and
you probably need to just reconfigure this in
a way that you may not be coming in with so
much bold print on the application.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have.
Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, two things. One is
what is right and the other is what you can
reasonably expect us to grant.
MR. GORMAM: Well, that's what I'm
MEMBER SIMON: If you can somehow bring
those things closer together, I think the ball
is in your court, (inaudible) point, cause
we've already indicated there's reluctance to
give you the whole nine yards for a lot of
reasons, legal and principle reasons. So the
ball is in your court to see how you can bend
this thing a little bit further, extend it or
restrict it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I guess that's
where we are and you can do -- we could recess
it until Mr. Gorman speaks to Mr. Scarola and
sees what the -- which way he would like to
change this, but it would require
readvertising anyway.
BOARD ASST.: That would be a new
application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would be a new
application, right.
BOARD ASST.: You could either withdraw
it or ask the Board for a decision, reapply.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We could close the
hearing and vote on it.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And then you'll see what
happens and then you can take it from there.
I mean, there's no -- at this point there's no
additional information forthcoming. You're
asking us to more or less inform you and Mr.
Scarola what we believe, based on what you've
applied for, is a {inaudible) reasonable
variance.
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: And so I think we could
deliberate on that and let you know and then
you can reapply for something else if that's
appropriate for you or what. I mean, I don't
know.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You could apply for
a use variance, okay, and I have to tell you
they're extremely difficult --
MR. GORMAN: I understand. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're better off going
to the Town Board for a change of zone.
BOARD ASST.: That's a good point, too.
MR. GORMAN: But the interpretation of
the building is --
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not a Code
permitted use. I mean we grant variances that
are relative to the Code.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But if it's not a
permitted use, then you have to request a use
variance.
MR. GORMAN:
Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Any agriculture -- we
could certainly deliberate upon granting
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
alternate relief
buildings may be
agricultural use.
in which all three storage
used for any Code-permitted
They just haven't really
been built for agricultural uses.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That may be as simple as
going back to what you've got before renting
it to the Building Inspector.
MR. GORMAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It may be that simple.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, he's asked for a --
you might not need a variance for that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's what I'm
trying to --
MR. GORMAN: That said, that said, we're
still saying the two-family doubling the --
asking for a 50 percent variance on the land
is outside of the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a huge --
MR. GORMAN: -- is too much.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not saying that, I'm
saying that you're asking me to look at way
too much at one time.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: If there's anyone on this
Board who's been trying to give away the store
and that person doesn't want to give away this
particular store, that ought to send a
message.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Of course that's
Michael's opinion, but --
MEMBER SIMON: I meant if there were
anyone --
MR. GORMAN: Okay, understood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So --
MR. GORMAN: So I guess, then I guess
there's no way to hold this over to amend my
application, correct, and continue so that we
can get into February?
BOARD ASST.: You'd have to (inaudible)
Building Inspector generally to get a
disapproval and the procedure is the Board has
enough information to rule on this. I would
recommend that they, you know, they're ready
to close the hearing that they close the
hearing and then you can refile --
MR. GORMAN: Um-hmm.
BOARD ASST.: -- you can talk to your
client and withdraw it next week, if you want
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
to withdraw it and refile. The same thing as
amending, you know, it's very similar.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: It's the same procedural
path as to starting over.
MR. GORMAN: Right, right. We're into
March now, right?
BOARD ASST.: It's (inaudible).
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: We've got five applications
in the last two days.
MR. GORMAN: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This is (inaudible).
MR. GORMAN: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER WEISMAN: What
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Thank you.
are we doing?
Is there anybody
who would like to speak for or against?
You need to use the mike.
BOARD ASST.:
name?
MS. WESTNER:
I'm a neighbor of
And your name, please, your
My name is Jane Westner.
the property. I've lived
next to that property for 45 years. I've been
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
through the potato grading station.
through the cars. I've been through
storage. Southampton --
it?
I've been
lots of
MEMBER WEISMAN: Produce.
MS. WESTNER: Yeah they had a
They used that building there.
-- who was
It's been
a mess. I don't pretend to understand what
your limitations are as far as Code and so on
and so forth, cause I've never dealt with any
of that, all I can say is that Mr. Scarola has
made a monumental change to that property.
It's clean. It's just what it hasn't been in
45 years since I've lived there.
I've lived there when the migrant workers
were not even bothering knocking on my front
door, just coming in. This is like a whole
new neighborhood there. So I guess what I'm
asking is I don't know what the procedures
are, but I would like to see to cooperate with
him to get something done to that property
within, obviously you have to stay within your
legal limits --
MEMBER OLIVA: The Code.
MS. WESTNER: -- all I'm saying is that
he has done a great benefit to that property
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
there because it has just been one bad
situation after another.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What we're trying
to do is fit it in.
MS. WESTNER: That's what I'm hoping that
you can do for him because he -- as I say,
I've lived there for 45 years and, in fact,
when I was a kid that used to be a chicken
barn there. There used to be chickens, Mr.
Kirkup raised chickens.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you to the west?
MS. WESTNER: To the east, I'm just to
the east of there. He's cleaned it up and
he's put a lot of money into it and he's
improved it tremendously. I'm just hoping
that something can work for the man, that it
can be taken care of. It's just, as far as
I'm concerned, it's a great improvement to the
neighborhood what he's done there.
MEMBER SIMON: I appreciate your
contribution.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
BOARD ASST.: I had one question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
BOARD ASST.: I wanted to ask, I didn't
know if the Board Members wanted to split the
applications. I don't know if Mr. Gorman
wants to split and withdraw the wine storage
request so that they can go ahead on the two-
family request or do they want him to withdraw
and start over?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think he has to
withdraw and start over.
MEMBER OLIVA: I agree with Gerry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Unfortunately.
BOARD ASST.: Withdraw the whole thing?
MEMBER OLIVA: It's
for a two-family house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
a huge variance even
Yup, he has to
withdraw and start over and I'm not putting
words in anybody's mouth, but it has to be
something that's agricultural in reference to
the storage and that is definitely not race
cars. There's no question about it.
MR. GORMAN: So what do they run on bio-
fuel?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you want to
shell corn there as long as it doesn't bother
this young lady over here, you know, that may
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
be an agricultural operation. It was in the
old days. There isn't too much potato left.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MR. GORMAN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no
further comment, I'll make a motion closing
the hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6230 Deborah Pontino
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under Sections
280-122 and 280-124, and Zoning Code
interpretation %5039 (Walz Application), based
on the Building Inspector's August 25, 2008
Notice of Disapproval concerning the proposed
addition to the existing single-family
dwelling, which will increase the degree of
nonconformance with regard to the rear yard
setback at less than the code-required minimum
of 50 feet at 2675 Indian Neck Lane, Peconic;
CTM 1000-86-5-13."
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Is there someone here
application?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to address that
Mr. Stoutenburgh,
would you state your name for the record?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Peter Stoutenburgh,
I'm here to answer any questions that anybody
might have on this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, let me follow up
then. The deck is the only addition to the
existing single-family dwelling, which is
currently being renovated --
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and it's got a rear
yard setback at 40 feet, which will be
maintained, but additions to the side will
trigger the Walz decision. The Code requires
a 50
14.5
deck;
MR.
existing
kitchen.
foot rear yard setback. You'll be adding
feet by 9 foot 2 inches to the existing
is that correct?
STOUTENBURGH: No, there isn't an
deck, there is an existing summer
was to represent, the summer kitchen was
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: The 10-foot addition
not
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
something she wants to pay to renovate and so
she's going to turn that into a deck and when
we filed application for it we realized about
the setback. I had assumed that the setback
was to Code and we hadn't gotten a survey at
the time because that property was subdivided
some years ago, but when we started to look at
it I think it's because it's trying to keep
the barns and giving them some sort of a
setback with the buildings behind it maybe
that's why the Planning Board at the time
allowed the setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so let me make
sure I have this correctly noted here. The
deck will be 10 foot by 36 foot long on the
east, which is the rear of the house and 10 by
25 on the north side of the house and about a
maximum of 24 inches above grade?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. You're not
changing the house particularly, it's just
simply the setback for the deck that we're
talking about?
MR. STOUTENBURGH:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yes.
Okay, I have no further
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
questions there. It's a,
inconspicuous really addition.
inspection shows that you have
front yard setback --
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Big side
you know, totally
The site
a very large
yards.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yup. The sod farm is to
the rear and off to the side. There's a barn
off to the south I guess and a wooded
unimproved lot across the street. I don't see
any impact particularly on any other property
for this variance. I have no further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's open to the
sky; is that correct?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Yes, I don't think
there's any problem with that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: It's a family member
who's come back to live in the family and she
said I have to be able to sit in my backyard
and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Look up?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: -- look up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nothing wrong with
that. Is there anybody else like to speak to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Mr.
Stoutenburgh regarding this?
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question. How
in the
outdoor
more than --
MEMBER SIMON:
overlap beyond that
Right, but how much
is there actually of deck?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: None.
MEMBER SIMON: None, is this in the same
space?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: Yes. Right.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I thought.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: The foundation is
still there.
MEMBER SIMON: So if the -- would you
even need a variance if you were going to
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much of the area of the deck will be
space that had been occupied by this
kitchen?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: The kitchen was
probably 10 by 15, I would say, something like
that and that sort of sits right at the back
door --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: -- what used to be the
summer kitchen, but the summer kitchen wasn't
-- the cost of bringing that up to par was
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
restore that outdoor kitchen, it's just a
matter of changing it to a deck?
MR. STOUTENBURGH: No, I think because we
were going to restore it, but that the cost
came in the fact that it was never --
MEMBER SIMON: No, I'm not recommending
it. I'm just saying is that it make a
variance a rather technical matter in saying
if you could have sort of patched up what was
already there, I'm not saying you should have
wanted to.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: As long as we didn't
change its use --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, right.
MR. STOUTENBURGH: -- then the only
question would have been by heating it would
have changed it, that I don't know.
BOARD ASST.: It's possible it still
would have been part of the variance. I asked
the Building Department that same question
actually because it's less than 50 feet from
the rear yard the area of where the kitchen
is, especially, if there were changes they
might still have looked it over.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Well, that's all.
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It's not an important question as far as I'm
concerned.
BOARD ASST.: No, but if the Board proved
that they probably should have addressed that
area, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no
further comment, I'll make a motion closing
the hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6231 - John Tagios
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you would state
your name, please, for the record, Mr. Notaro.
MR. NOTARO: My name is Frank Notaro, I'm
the architect and the agent for Mr. and Mrs.
Tagios. If I may turn --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. NOTARO: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: So you mean two cards
didn't come back?
MR. NOTARO: Well, this one came back
that it was undeliverable. They have a Post
Office Box.
BOARD ASST.: Okay. This is the one that
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
there's an estate or something,
forwarded to an estate?
MR. NOTARO:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. NOTARO:
it's not being
Yes.
Alright, thank you.
The variance that we're
requesting basically involves the front --
MEMBER OLIVA: Move the mike up closer.
MR. NOTARO: There we go. The variance
involves basically a covered front porch for
the proposed alteration. It is not a complete
knockdown. We did provide a foundation plan
showing you basically the add-ons. There will
be extensive demolition on the first floor and
new window locations, but basically most of
the foundation is
If there are
to answer them.
MEMBER OLIVA:
pool?
MR. NOTARO:
remaining.
any questions, I'll be glad
Do they have a CO for the
Do they have a CO for the
pool? That's
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. NOTARO:
client --
MEMBER OLIVA:
a good question.
Well, we're not too sure.
Well, I'm looking at the
I know you are.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. NOTARO: -- they can get up in a few
minutes and answer any additional questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: Sure.
MR. NOTARO: I don't have any knowledge
of that.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Reading from the
Disapproval, the proposed construction of a
single-family dwelling notes a front yard
setback of 31 feet plus or minus.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the purpose
of that is the proposed addition on the front.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: It's a little porch,
stoop?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean that's
really the only reason why you're here and, of
course, the issue of any other nonconforming
which raises the degree of nonconformity.
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's not much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what they're
asking for. That's within the setback of the
rear yard, but the rear yard could be --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA:
it's in there.
BOARD ASST.:
It's not the pool, but
Anything within 40 feet
would be nonconforming.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
addition that would be the
So it would be the
south side also.
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, what's that little
addition on the side facing Clearview?
MR. NOTARO: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What you're
referring to as crawl space.
MEMBER OLIVA: Crawl space?
MR. NOTARO: Well, that's the foundation
plan, it's the crawl space.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but I mean
how would -- that's added to the --
MR. NOTARO: Yes, it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. NOTARO: But, I mean, we're still
under the lot coverage for this --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we're just
talking about reference to setbacks.
MR. NOTARO: Oh.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll encompass it
all into one neat little package so when it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
applied for you can actually -- you're
applying for the permit now and that's why
when you got the Notice of Disapproval, but
when you get the permit it includes that so
that our decision mirrors that also.
MR. NOTARO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Although it was not
necessarily indicated on the Notice of
Disapproval because it only reflects the front
yard, although that is a front yard, you're
much more than 40 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's conforming.
MR. NOTARO: Right,
conforming on that side.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
we are basically
Right. No, I
understand that, but the problem is that this
can be construed, depending on the --
BOARD ASST.: It's the whole new dwelling
that's being constructed so --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. You
understand what I'm saying?
MR. NOTARO: I honestly don't understand
that. I do know that there are both
considered front yards.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, but the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
actual portion where the pool is --
MR. NOTARO: Oh, I see. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- also -- I'm
showing 30 feet there.
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so if you
chose to take that it's probably a side yard.
MR. NOTARO: That's what it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So there's no
nonconformity there.
BOARD ASST.: When you draw a line 40
feet back from the street, that whole part of
the house that's 40 feet between that and the
street, that whole area needs a variance --
MR. NOTARO: Oh yes, yes.
BOARD ASST.: -- cause you're demoing and
building new, right?
MR. NOTARO: Correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it's that
corner or portion of it.
MR. NOTARO: Now I understand what you're
referring to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. Okay, any
other questions?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MEMBER SIMON: I looked at the property
and I looked at the way the additions are
(inaudible) and I noticed the -- that off --
the (inaudible) -- at the moment the house is
at the exact same setback from the street as
the house on both sides and both houses across
the street. So the variance which will bring
it down to 31 feet will mean that this house
and only this house will extend 10 feet closer
to the street than the other houses. Since
that might very well inspire the neighbors to
do something similar to what the Tagios' are
doing, what do you have to say to that as a
possible burden to be overcome for the
application to get a variance?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not 10 feet,
though, Michael, it's 9 feet.
MR. NOTARO:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. NOTARO:
It's not 10, it's 8.5 feet.
8.5 okay.
Basically the -- what we've
tried to do is to limit it with open porches,
the parts that do project out, except for that
one little sliver to fill in where the present
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
porch is right now,
dramatic.
MEMBER SIMON:
extension, however,
so I don't think it's that
The plan calls for that
the renovation and --
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, it calls for
approximately about 2.5 feet, 3 feet which is
two-story structure, but beyond that point
into the nonconformance it's just a one-story
open porch.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. NOTARO:
open porch on the
Um-hmm.
The reason we also added the
side that faces Clearview is
to actually lessen the height look of the
house. Once again, we tried to pitch all of
the adjacent roofs as much as we could towards
the house so it's
and --
MEMBER SIMON:
not just a two-story block
Okay, when you say open
porch you mean open to the sky as well?
MR. NOTARO: No, I don't mean that. I
meant open non-heated, non-enclosed.
MEMBER SIMON: A roofed porch, a roofed
porch.
MR. NOTARO: It's a roofed porch, yes.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I thought.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like it's 4
foot 2 inches deep by 12 foot wide.
MR. NOTARO: The front porch, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. So actually the -
let's see if there's any -- so that looks
like, is that steps?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One step. It looks like
you're decreasing the setback by, the existing
front yard setback, which appears on the
survey as 37.1 feet, and the proposed is now
31.5 feet; is that accurate?
MR. NOTARO: Yeah, the survey shows 31.5
to the first step.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. NOTARO: So assuming that the first
step tread is 12 inches, then we're going back
a little bit further to the actual stoop,
which is one step down from the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So five feet.
MR. NOTARO: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you please tell
us the size of that front porch, again, Mr.
Notaro?
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MR. NOTARO: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: 4-1/2 by 127
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, 4.2.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. NOTARO:
4.2.
Actually, it's measuring 6
feet --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's with the tread.
MR. NOTARO: Um-hmm. It's about 11 or 12
feet. Not counting the step, the lower step
it's 4.2 by 12.
BOARD ASST.: 4 foot 2 inches by 12 wide.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what the first
floor (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Then the first floor
demolition (inaudible). So it's covered
entrance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else,
Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, let's see
what develops throughout the hearing, Mr.
Notaro.
MR. NOTARO: Okay. Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Is there anybody else
speak for or against
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Thank you, sir.
who would like to
this application?
I'll make a motion
reserving decision for
Second.
HEARING #6100 and %6224 Romanelli
Realty Inc.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Location of Property: 36660 Route 25
(Main Road), Cutchogue; CTM 97-3-3.1 (formerly
97-3-3). Request for a Special Exception for
a contractor's yard and for Variances under
Sections 280-42A and 280-43A & C, based on the
Building Inspector's November 19, 2007 amended
Notice of Disapproval, concerning a proposed
contractor's yard and three principal
buildings on this 63,338 square foot lot in a
LB Limited Business Zone District.
"(1) Pursuant to the Bulk Schedule, one
use per 80,000 square feet is allowed in
Limited Business (LB) Zone, and the proposed
construction (thee buildings) is not permitted
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on a lot containing less than 240,000 square
feet, for the reason that the proposed three
buildings constitutes three distinct uses;
"(2) Proposed Building %1 is not
permitted with a linear frontage exceeding the
60 feet;
"(3) Proposed Building #1 is not
permitted at less than 100 feet from the
right-of-way of NYS Route 25;
"14) Proposed Building #2 is not
permitted at less than 75 feet from the rear
property line;
"(5) Proposed building #3 is not
permitted at less than 20 feet from the side
lot line;
Also requested is a Special Exception for
a contractor's yard under Section 280-40B(2)."
Okay, I read it. You may begin.
MS. MESSIANO: My name is Catherine
Messiano. I'm here on behalf of the
applicants, Romanelli Realty and I'd like to
address the issues of the variance first.
We're asking for some relief. The
purpose for the relief in general is to
accomr~odate adequate turning radius' within
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the property and to accommodate and conform to
the parking bulk requirements and the relief
would enable us to provide good turnaround
area, good containment of all onsite traffic
within the property out of view from the Main
Road. The buffer areas -- now I realize the
buffer areas and the setbacks are two distinct
issues, but in no instance are we asking for
the relief of the setbacks to be any less than
what the buffers would require. The
perimeters of the property are naturally
vegetated and we would seek to retain as much
natural vegetation as possible for screening
and then supplement that with additional
vegetation as would be appropriate in those
conditions. That's my simple case.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Let me stop you there.
MS. MESIANO: Go ahead.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Why these buildings in
these locations?
MS. MESIANO:
these locations?
Why these buildings in
Okay. The applicant is
proposing a contractor's yard and, typically,
those uses would be plumbers, electricians,
carpenters, cabinet makers, tradesmen and
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what's curious to me is that when you read the
Code section for Limited Business all of those
uses are listed under the permitted uses in an
LB Zone. It's 280-41A(6), specifically,
outlines the uses that are permitted in that
Zone. So it seems to me somewhat
contradictory when you read the permitted uses
and you --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Cathleen.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I wanted -- we need to
go one --
MS. MESIANO: Yup.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Let's not hop back and
forth.
MS. MESIANO: Okay. Ask me a question,
directly, I'll try to answer it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're talking about the
buildings, why you're locating them --
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in the locations in
which you want them.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, are there existing
buildings on the property?
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MS. MESIANO: There are existing
buildings on the property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Are those footprints
going to be used?
MS. MESIANO: No, those footprints are
going to be abandoned and those setbacks are
less than any setbacks we propose.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. So I'd like to
hear a little discussion just on that part of
it.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We want -- we'd like to
hear you justify the reason why you want three
buildings, okay, and setbacks.
MS. MESIANO: Okay, I'll answer your last
question first.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: The reason we want three
buildings is that the alternative is one very
large building and that seems to contradict
the intent of the aesthetic direction that the
Town seems to be taking. The Town appears to
want to maintain the older country look and in
order to accomplish that we believe that we
can do that more effectively with several
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
smaller buildings than one larger building.
We can build one building that conforms
to all of the zoning requirements, but it's
not something we prefer to do even though it's
the path of least resistance because being a
resident of the town, well-known in the town,
and having a vested interest in the town, it
would be, I think, rather hypocritical to
build what the zoning would allow and that
flies in the face of hypocrisy. The whole
intent of the additional effort, the
additional expense is to try to create a
project that is more aesthetically pleasing to
the town, to people who are passing by on the
Main Road and to whatever extent there is any
visual impact to the neighboring properties to
the side and the rear.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They're paying for it.
MS. MESIANO: I'm sorry?
MEMBER DINIZIO: How big would the
building be?
MS. MESIANO: The building would be --
UNIDENTIFIED: You're talking about Code?
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, the Code building --
MEMBER DINIZIO: What would you be
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
allowed to do on that piece of
single building?
high?
MS. MESIANO:
in the front --
property with a
How many square feet, how
Well, it would be 60 feet
80
MEMBER WEISMAN: 60 foot wide?
MS. MESIANO: 60 feet wide in the front.
feet wide in the back and it would extend
MEMBER DINIZIO:
wide in the back?
trapezoid?
MS. MESIANO:
What do you mean 80 feet
It would be like a
No, this is a dogleg and it
has a slight angle in it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, okay.
MS. MESIANO: So the those rectangles
would be 80 feet -- excuse me, 60 feet in
width --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, how deep is the
building?
MS. MESIANO: That's what I'm --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, you don't know?
MS. MESIANO: The average depth of the
building is 185 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 185.
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UNIDENTIFIED: 80 by 80 by 190 feet back.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You'll have to state
your name, sir, I'm sorry, but --
UNIDENTIFIED: (Inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: You could stand over
there if you want,
UNIDENTIFIED:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
you could both talk at the
(Inaudible).
I don't mind.
it's up to the Chairman, but --
BOARD ASST.: State your full
please.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
John Romanelli.
Alright, sir.
I mean,
name,
MEMBER OLIVA: Good to see you again.
MR. ROMANELLI: Thank you. The building
that we could do without any variances, which
is really for site plan approval through the
Planning Board and a building permit, is like
Cathy said. We have 60 feet by almost 200
feet long, two-story tall. I can meet all the
variances and leave here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, meet all setbacks --
MR. ROMANELLI: Oh, meet all setbacks
requirements without being here.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: -- without the need for
a variance you could build that size building.
Okay.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yes. Right.
MS. MESIANO: Your question, it's 11,400
square feet, approximately, is the footprint.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so what are the
buildings you're proposing?
MS. MESIANO: The buildings that we're
proposing -- I'm sorry, this is very paper-
heavy.
MR. ROMANELLI: The front building on the
plan would be 100 by 60; 100 feet wide, if we
get that variance, by 60 feet deep. The rear
building, one of the rear buildings would be
60 by 40 and the other one would be 40 -- 60
by 40 also.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, they're varying
configurations. They're both 2800 square
feet. We refer to them as buildings B and C,
building A would be the front building, would
be 6,000 square feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So why can't you turn
the one building the 60 by 100 around?
MS. MESIANO: The reason that we were
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hoping to achieve the first choice plan is
that in doing so we were able to create a
fagade of the building that would have the
appearance of a 1-1/2 story type of structure
that would have a sloping roof, would have a
porch across the front with some fenestration
that would give a much more countrified
appearance rather than a commercial
appearance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What are the
fenestrations?
MS. MESIANO: Decoration, the stuff --
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's fine.
MS. MESIANO: -- the trim, the railings.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MS. MESIANO: It would also enable us to
put all of the garage doors that would be the
access to each unit for the contractors in the
rear and none of the activity then is visible
from the road. There's minimal parking
provided in the front for whomever. I don't
even try to go that way, but there's minimal
parking provided in the front and all of the
parking and activity is concentrated in the
center of the property. In doing this, we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
able to shield from view, from the road and
the properties around us, the actual
operations within the property. The garage
doors are facing the center of the property
from all of the buildings. There's adequate
room for ingress and egress of delivery
trucks, emergency service trucks. There's
adequate space to maneuver a loading platform
so that there's not any congestion with, you
know, the infamous truck backing up [tape
change] activity and the focus of it is
centered in the center of the property and
it's shielded from view from the road and from
the properties around it.
We've tried to create buildings that are
smaller in size, yet accomplish an equivalent
area as far as the square footage is
concerned. You know, despite the fact that
the world is in a financial collapse, we still
live in a Capitalist society and we hope to
have the business venture be, at some point,
profitable. So in order to maximize your
investment, we tried, of course, to get the
square footage that works on the property that
makes this project feasible. Again, it could
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be accomplished without any variances;
however, I think the powers that be would not
be very happy and I don't say that in the
guise of a veiled, you know, so there you got
what you want, but it's the practical aspect
that we have several options.
Do we have flexibility in our desired
plan? There's some. We can still make it
work, but we don't want to have to go to the
fallback position, which is one large building
because it serves no one's benefit. The mass,
the height would not make anybody happy. I
think we can create better neighbors by making
smaller -- three smaller buildings than one
large one and we can --
MEMBER DINIZIO: The buildings would be
single-story, 1-1/2 --
MS. MESIANO: They would be at most --
MR. ROMANELLI: The front building would
be two stories to be able to at least have a
12-foot garage door in the back of it. The
two small buildings in the rear would be one-
story buildings with a garage door high enough
to get a van in, you know, with a ladder rack
on it, that type of thing.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have
is where have you gone from here in reference
to the Planning Board? I mean I received
their letter, where are we with that
situation? Excuse me for jumping in on this.
MR. ROMANELLI: I read the Planning
Board's summary and letter and where have we
gone, we've disagreed with them on their
thought process when it gets
one -- you know, again we've
intent on trying to minimize
down to it that
put a lot of
the visual impact
from the road. So that's how I sort of
designed this to get everything out of site
from the Main Road. You know, in the summary
in the Planning Board they talked about the
lot is substandard. Well, every lot in
Southold Town is substandard. The application
for new construction they said should be
designed to fit the lot and we're actually
think we're doing a better job trying to
design to fit this lot than what our Code
allows us to fit onto this lot.
They're claiming that our hardships are
self-created. Well, they are and I agree with
them on that standpoint because we created
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hardships because we're try to do what we feel
is just a smaller, simpler, cleaner project
for that Zoned piece of property.
They also claim in the letter that the
intent of the Limited Business District Zone
is not being met with the proposed intense
commercial use, which I completely disagree
with because we're really going with, you
know, LB uses and that was in our application.
So I think they're way off the mark on their
summary, if you want my opinion there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The next question I
have, John, is one that concerns the Board,
and I'm not speaking for the Board as a whole,
but it concerns me, and that is the neighbors'
impact of this project.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We know that the
project will have an impact on them, okay?
MR. ROMANELLI: Sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the degree,
and Cathy mentioned the natural vegetation
around.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean what do you
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
really intend to do with this to really take
some of the bite out of the contractor's yard?
MR. ROMANELLI: Well, you know, part of
that is the rear portion of the property is
where we propose to put the smaller buildings.
Currently, there's two structures there that
are closer to the property line than what
we're going to put there. We're creating a
40-foot buffer, asking for a 40-foot buffer on
the real property line. We have a vegetation
line around the property. You know, what
we're doing to lessen the impact on the
neighbors is design this plan, you know,
that's really our take. We're, I think, we're
showing an intent that we're trying to keep
the neighbors in mind here and not over build
this parcel.
So, again, going back to what the Code
allows us to do that would so deeply impact
those neighbors that I don't even feel
comfortable with it. So, you know, we're
taking our approach, we really think we're
doing the right thing for this parcel. Now,
it's an open piece of property that's been
zoned LB since, I think, 1954 is what the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
search showed up. So anybody who's living
there except maybe Mr. Midgley sic) has come
there after the fact.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now is this -- I
just recently looked at the other file and, of
course, it was December 20, 2007 and this was
just one vastly impact in here for the Zoning
Board, I have to tell you --
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and people are
stopping me on the street and they're worried
about and, you know, you're not supposed to
talk to them and you're not supposed to
converse with them regarding the application,
and they point a finger at you and they say,
what are you going to do about a contractor
working on something outside with my house
next door? I said, we haven't even gotten to
that point, okay.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I suspect that if
you're going to drive a van into this
building, I suspect you are going to, correct
me if I'm wrong and that's what I'm trying to
learn at this hearing, alright, based upon
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
this application, you are going to probably
air condition those buildings. Those people
will probably be working within the buildings
themselves. I see no outside area that
involves any storage.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that the --
MR. ROMANELLI: That is the intent to put
garage doors big enough that, you know, a
contractor, whether it be a mason or whoever,
can move his material inside the building,
even the front building with the garage doors
in the rear, once again for the same thing, to
move it away from the Main Road and to be able
to get your material inside the building.
Now, I don't have to tell you we have so
many neighboring zones here in Southold where,
you know, you're Limited Business next
residential and B is next to residential and,
you know, you try to work with the neighbors,
but then again zoning is zoning also.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of the greatest
impacts we ever had on a residential lot, and
this is somewhat similar to that and I'm just
sharing this with you, was the funeral home in
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Cutchogue, which was basically residential
property, and then the zone was changed after
that. This Board agonized for 15 hours over a
period of three separate meetings doing the
screening on that. Okay, mainly because, I'll
go right on the record and say it, people
didn't want to see dead bodies carried into a
funeral home. Okay? The past gentleman who
built it had tremendous credentials and I'm
sure that the gentlemen that own it now, the
ladies and gentlemen who own it now have the
same credentials, okay, they spent a lot of
money on screening.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that's an issue
that, again, I think you really need to deal
with.
MEMBER SIMON: I would like to raise a
somewhat different kind of issue. What I hear
you saying John, is with some cogency is that
you people can do
Planning Board is
goals of what the
to do.
about
a better job than the
doing with regard to the
Planning Board is supposed
You may be right, what I'm concerned
is whether we should be the body to
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171
December 4, 2008
decide a battle between you and the Planning
Board on what is essentially a Planning Board
issue, at this point.
As I read the Planning Board's account,
it sounds pretty plausible, it's certainly
straightforward. I hear what you say, that
sounds pretty interesting, too. I don't think
-- I feet that as a member of this Board I'm
capable of adjudicating between those two
things. I'd like to see you have a debate
with the Planning Board and see if you can
persuade them.
MR. ROMANELLI: Well, unfortunately, you
know, we have the whole what came first the
chicken or the egg.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MR. ROMANELLI: Because the Planning
Board won't do anything, go any further, until
they get some voice out of the Zoning Board.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand.
MR. ROMANELLI: The Zoning Board won't go
any further until they get some voice out of
the Planning Board. So somewhere along the
line a Board has to take a step to move me off
the dime that we've been on for a year.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: I understand.
MR. ROMANELLI: So somewhere along
somebody's have to say okay it's my decision
and I'm hoping a few people can say that.
MEMBER SIMON: But it's a --
MR. ROMANELLI: Now that's not -- I don't
-- and I just want to correct you. I don't
believe that we can say we've been doing a
better job than the Planning Board. I'm just
really trying to say that -- we're trying to
say the Planning Board is working within the
Code. We're looking at the Code going the
Code is going to give me an ugly building
here, a big ugly building here. Let's put
some common sense behind it, soften the size
of this building that the Code is going to
allow us to do and make something a little
more less impacting on the property. So now I
tried this conversation with the Planning
Board, but I can't
over there.
MEMBER SIMON:
seem to get that through
Is your argument that we
have more flexibility vis a vie the Code than
the Planning Board does and that's one good
reason that you're here rather than there?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ROMANELLI: That's correct. I mean
they won't go any further until this Board
decides one way or the other, you know, give
and take on either side here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we -- let me
follow up on that. We had a similar situation
with the Mooney property up on Main Road in
Mattituck where we were working with the
Planning Board as lead agency and Mr. Mooney
was in a similar situation of not able to move
the project forward very successfully without
some feedback from us. I think the Planning
Board will have to, as lead agency, conduct a
full SEQRA --
MR. ROMANELLI: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- review of what
appears to be potentially significant traffic
impacts with that intensity of use, that many
buildings and parking spaces and so on.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that has to happen
and what we -- that was the case with Mooney
and we wound up providing comments back to the
Planning Board with potential intent without
making a decision.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
be a useful way --
MR. ROMANELLI:
Um-hmm.
So, you know, this may
It may be a similar
situation. Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- of (inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON: A long time but we --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on one second,
Michael. I think it's important to recognize
that although the Code would permit a large
building, it wouldn't have to be a large ugly
building. There's a way to breakdown the
components within the building using
architectural elements that can scale it to
look much more residential in character, even
though it has a large footprint, cause I think
it's important to recognize that historically
what we try to do, what our obligation legally
is to do is to grant the smallest variances
possible.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
just for the record,
Right.
-- on a property. Now,
it's important to reflect
that you are looking at a 21 percent variance
for lot coverage for those three buildings.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
You're looking at a 40 percent variance on the
front elevation on building 1. You're looking
a 47 percent setback variance for building 2.
You're looking at a 50 percent side yard
variance for building 3. Those are really
large variances.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. ROMANELLI:
No doubt.
Ail of them, very
Now I just want to
large.
clarify. You said something about -- what did
you say about lot coverage?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 21 percent.
MS. MESIANO: I have to question that as
well.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah, we're under lot
coverage here.
MS. MESIANO: 2600 plus 2600 plus 6000
does not exceed 12,667 square feet, which 20
percent.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't say that on
(inaudible).
MR. ROMANELLI: We're under our lot
coverage with the three buildings. We're not
looking for a variance for --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh yeah. Then we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
looking at three variances.
1, 2, and 3.
MS. MESIANO: Now, if I
sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
question though --
MR. ROMANELLI: Sure.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
One for building
may add -- I'm
I do want to ask a
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- while I have the
floor for a moment because I would like the
record to reflect your point of view on this.
In reading the Code, Section 280-40, in terms
of the purposes of -- as opposed to the list
of uses permitted.
MR. ROMANELLI: Uh-huh.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
is a permitted use, but the
contractors yard
intent -- there's
a difference between the letter of the law and
the spirit of the law -- the intent of the LB
Zone is to provide limited business activity
along highway corridors, this is according to
the Code, that is consistent with the rural
surrounding areas and uses. Now, if we look
at that property across the street, across
Main Road is a winery.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ROMANELLI: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Along Skunk Lane and all
the way around in the back are all quiet
residential properties whose rear yards,
fundamentally, overlook the rear of your piece
of property. So if that defines the character
of the neighborhood, which is an important
criteria, one of the ones we have to address,
please tell me how you see a contractor's yard
with three buildings and rather intensive
traffic supporting the idea of an agricultural
and residential area because of its character.
MR. ROMANELLI: Well, okay and I'll sort
of respond to that if I came here with an
application and said I had a winery that I
wanted to build there and serve wine on the
weekend, which would, by all means, create
more traffic than this property will on a
Saturday or a Sunday, and they were going to
put their vats in the back and work out back I
think that, number one,
than this would create.
residential traffic, it
outside work.
So with that said,
creates more traffic
It would create more
would create more
you know, how am I
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fitting in? Well, we're on a highway, that's
one, we're trying to design a building in the
front that has a New England look to it with a
porch and an overhang so it looks more like a
residential house than just one big large
commercial building. The buildings in the
back are lower impact so they're not seen from
the road. So I think everything you said
there we have shown that we are trying to
create, you know, something that's going to
fit into the neighborhood. You know, you're
talking about a heavy traffic coramercial yard,
well, a contractor's yard for the most part
will have traffic in the morning and then
maybe traffic at the end of the day, very
little traffic on weekends because most
contractors aren't working Saturday and
Sunday.
So we're really talking about creating
traffic that's going to be morning and
afternoon, pretty well vacant during the day.
I think that does less impact on the
neighborhood than any sort of winery or
agricultural situation that is going to bring
people there all weekend long.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Cathy, do you have any feelings on that?
Feel free.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I'd like to say too
that this particular type of use would have
the potential to attract the people who are
living within these residential areas that
surround this property who are presently
working out of their garages, out of their
yards, etc. That the traffic that Would be
generated by this property -- how do I put
this -- is traffic that's already existing in
different venues, but it may be concentrated
now into this area. The plumber that's
outgrown his garage or the Code doesn't allow
for him to do it or you know whatever the
situation may be, but these are generally
people who are already in business somewhere
in the nearby proximity and they will now be
concentrated in a small area. So yeah the guy
may still be driving down Skunk Lane, but
he'll be coming to Skunk Lane to conduct his
business and then going back up to Main Road
rather and then going back down Skunk Lane,
you know as a hypothetical, to go back home.
I don't see this as being a use that's going
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
to generate a dozen new startup businesses in
the town. I see this more as something that's
going to accomm~odate established businesses,
people who are already working within the town
and need that extra -- that extra step up, if
you will, in the area within which they work
their office space. You know, you can't work
off the kitchen table anymore, that sort of a
scenario.
I don't see it as being a new --
MEMBER WEISMAN: One follow up question
then I'll stop for a while. I want to hear
what other folks have to say and I'm sure
there'll be some other comments.
It's again, I'm asking questions because
I want your responses again for the record.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why is it not possible
to build building 1 with a 60-foot elevation?
Why do you need to have it that big a building
period? Why can't, if you're trying to create
a modest situation with three smaller
buildings --
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Well --
-- why can't that 60-
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
foot front elevation be to Code and just have
a smaller (inaudible)?
MR. ROMANELLI: Well, part of that is
economics. You know, on just the cost of
construction, you know, I'll be honest with
you, we're almost 100-grand into this thing
and we haven't put a shovel into the ground,
just in permits, variances, site plans,
drawings, you know, so we haven't but a shovel
so part of it's economics. You have to get
your bang for your buck out of the property in
terms of rentals and that kind of thing. You
know, and that's also the same could be said
you commented earlier you could put one
building and it doesn't have to be so big.
Well, again, that all works out to economics
and I have to get so many -- so much use out
of this in order to get the return on the
investment. So yeah, I could put a smaller
building if I do one building, but that
building is going to, certainly, meet the Code
and meet my economic needs also.
So you know, you're playing the double
edged sword of I could go 60 feet in the
front, lessen that variance, I could make the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
building a little deeper, but economics do
have to enter into what you're going to get
out of this piece of property and again we're
under our lot coverage. You know, so we're
not going over lot coverage here and trying to
go with a building that's going to bring us
above and beyond.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
this is simple, it's
Where I'm going with
just simply a matter of
saying how is it that you can meet
that you have and at
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
possible variances.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
here is.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the needs
the same time --
Oh yeah.
-- require the least
Um-hmm.
That's what the goal
Right.
Obviously, to respect
your concerns as a property owner, but also at
the same time to reflect the character of the
neighborhood and the impacts of the --
MR. ROMANELLI: It's an odd-shaped piece
of property. You know, so you got variances
stuck with, you know --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that
property.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER SIMON:
know, there's more
MS. MESIANO: It's practical difficulties
are created by the configuration of the
Yeah.
First of all, as we all
than one way to skin any
particular economic cat and the economic
argument has some cogency, but if, for
example, you're talking about the amount of
space you would have, I mean I don't want to
get into a debate on this,
MR. ROMANELLI: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: -- but
if the meeting of
the 60-foot maximum were important well
there's no -- I can't think of a reason why
one of the other buildings couldn't be by
compensation a bit larger. In other words,
there are other ways of doing this, but that's
just saying this is not the whole thing.
Regarding your point about taking business
that's going to occur elsewhere in the town, I
think the issue, as far as this application is
concerned, is the concentration on this
particular lot and that is the issue before
us. Not whether we're going to make things
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
less bad in some other part of town by
concentrating things here. Really, I realize
there are efficiencies to concentrating
enterprises, but there's also a down side, but
in general, this is just a comment I don't
have any further questions on this, and Leslie
mentioned the Mooney case and that worked out
I thought very successfully because going
between -- Mr. Mooney was certainly very happy
-- between us and the Planning Board and
working something out. I do not want to have
us vote against the Planning Board on this. I
think if we can work out some way of working
out some kind of mediation accommodation
between their concerns and our concerns maybe
everybody will wind up happy and I think there
are some very good ideas that you have and
I've heard them.
I think the idea of the more attractive
facade is appealing. I'm not convinced that
it needs to be a 100-foot facade rather than
60, but the idea of then putting more pieces
elsewhere on the lot is not a bad idea, it
sounds like, so I think things can be worked
out. I'm just not sure whether it's through
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
arm wrestling with the
that's all.
MR. ROMANELLI: I
Planning Board on this,
need someone to arm
wrestle with the Planning Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Building 1 has four
retail spaces in the front with storage
behind.
MR. ROMANELLI:
right.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
With storage behind them,
May I presume those will
be rental offices for contractors?
MR. ROMANELLI: The thought process is
the office in the front with one bathroom.
You know, almost very similar to how the
design is on the buildings up on Cox Lane, the
industrial. You know, you have office in the
front, behind that office is your commercial
area.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As you know, we
have two things still outstanding, of course,
and we already mentioned the one and that's
the SEQRA situation, which the Planning Board
is working on, and can you discuss the lot
line change situation. It appears to be still
up in the air on this piece of property.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ROMANELLI: That was when the piece
of property was purchased by myself the
previous owner, Mr. Midgley (sic) owned this
lot and the neighboring lot where he currently
lives. He cut out -- he built a workshop
behind his residential piece of property. He
carved out, prior to the sale of this piece of
property, an addition to his -- merged a piece
onto his existing residential piece of
property. It was done right here in Town Hall
in the Building Department overnight and never
really properly filed -- filed properly. I am
trying to clean up, should I say, an internal
issue done by the Building Department that was
done, like I said, overnight with an attorney
and they were able fo make that lot line
change. I'm trying to clean this up so it's
done legally.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going
anywhere with that based upon this thing or
are you --
MR. ROMANELLI: I certainly think it
should go somewhere since the drawing was done
in the Building Department by a Building
Inspector without any public hearing, without
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
any lot line change, nothing really happened,
it just got done. So I'm assuming that the
Town is going to want to clean up that mess
that they created and I filed the application
and we've filed the paperwork on it --
MS. MESIANO:
BOARD ASST.:
lot line change?
MS. MESIANO:
Months ago.
Who'd you file it with, a
Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: With the Planning Board?
MS. MESIANO: Well, the Planning Board no
longer has the mechanism for a simple lot line
change, so we had to submit an application for
a minor subdivision under the
process" and I submitted that
2.
"resubdivision
on or about July
MR. ROMANELLI: Let me just say that this
lot line change that we are trying to create
has a building on it that got a building
permit and a CO from the Building Department
prior to this lot even belonging legally to
that piece of property. Again, I'm looking
for the Town to straighten out that mess more
so rather than put that on me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Standing in front
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
of the property, that's the building to the
left as you look out the back?
MR. ROMANELLI: Yes, yes. So again that
has a CO, a building permit on a lot that
doesn't exist. So maybe the Town can take the
position to straighten that one out.
MS. MESIANO: If I can just interject,
the area that was set off from our subject
property and attached to Mr. Midgley's (sic)
property was approximately 2500 square feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I didn't know if
you're aware that we communicate at the staff
level with the Planning Office and they had
mentioned that they're not able to move
forward with the SEQRA process because you
have to file for a Notice of Disapproval with
the Building Department to see whether or not
you need a variance for the nonconforming lot
changes. So you might want to check with
Planning and Building to find out the process
on that.
MS. MESIANO: That has not been brought
up to me at all.
BOARD ASST.: That's why I'm mentioning
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it to you now.
MR. ROMANELLI: What was that? Just
repeat, I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
BOARD ASST.: We were told that you may
need to apply for a lot line change and maybe
the Building Department is going to issue a
Notice of Disapproval so they're waiting for
your application to the Building Department --
MR. ROMANELLI: For a lot line change
that's already been done?
BOARD ASST.: For the lot line change
that did not get Town approval and then
they'll tell you how to proceed from there.
MR. ROMANELLI: It got Town approval,
just unofficial Town approval.
MS. MESIANO:
BOARD ASST.:
that --
MS. MESIANO:
created.
BOARD ASST.:
Except that --
Well, maybe you know maybe
Except that a lot was not
Yeah, I don't know. I'm
just mentioning
MS.
but --
MR.
it to you, hopefully, they --
MESIANO: Yeah, I'll look into it,
ROMANELLI: Again, I ask the Zoning
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Board and the Board to please look at how that
happened. I mean I stand here with blueprints
and surveys and drainage calculations and
landscape calculations and all sorts of
paperwork here and I'm looking for the Town to
say, hey, you changed a lot line on a piece of
paper, you gave the guy a building permit then
you gave him a CO on that building and this is
dumped back on me to go through a whole other
process? I think that internally I'm looking
to this Board to maybe reach out to who
created this and make it right.
We're not sure
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
we're involved in this.
MR. ROMANELLI: Well,
it's the Building -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the problem.
MR. ROMANELLI: Okay.
MEMBER OLIVA: The Building Department.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can only act on
whatever the Notice of Disapproval is.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only
jurisdiction we have is in Special Permits.
MR. ROMANELLI: That's it. So a lot line
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
change would normally go to Planning Board not
here. So -- right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is not a
sarcastic statement.
MR. ROMANELLI: I understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is moving what
we construe to be, I think, forward.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As opposed to just
standing, I think, standing still.
MEMBER OLIVA: Or backwards.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
where do we go from here?
right.
So the question is
MR. ROMANELLI: Where do we go from here
is a good question.
MS. MESIANO: I would interject a couple
of things, if I may. There's a couple of
issues that this Board needs to be aware of
and I will be dealing with the Planning Board
on this matter, but there -- one of the items
is that the Code under Limited Business
provides that the front setback can be granted
relief when you show what the average setback
of properties within 300 feet are. We've had
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that mapping done, long story short, the
average setback within 300 feet of this
property is 49.63 feet. So we could satisfy
some of our rear yard variance problems by
moving the building forward 50 feet. We could
reduce our front yard setback by 50 feet if,
in fact, the Code means what it says.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only time,
Cathy, I've ever seen that was with the car
dealer in Mattituck and those were preexisting
buildings.
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have never seen
it in commercial, in a commercial situation.
I'm just throwing it out to you, okay?
MS. MESIANO: Okay. I wouldn't --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And this is not a
sarcastic statement either.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is only
pragmatic, okay?
MS. MESIANO: Yes. I only bring it up
because it's written very clearly in the
Code and if it's there, you know, you'll have
to forgive me, but I kind of expect it to mean
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
something.
BOARD ASST.: Also, just give all that
information to the Building Inspector. He'll
put on the Notice of Disapproval what the
reduced average
with so it will
them.
MS. MESIANO:
had --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
of the stuff that's
setback is that he's agreeing
help you if you give that to
Okay. Another point that I
Could I comment on some
been going on here?
MS. MESIANO: Yes, please do.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't know where to
start, but I guess I'll start right where you
just mentioned about the average setback and
all of that and the reaction of the Board is
you basically go and do it on your own, but
honestly this Board is supposed to give
guidance and make the decisions based on the
Code and, you know, if that's a reason that
you're setting it back so far and that you can
move it up, that should work to your advantage
to the applicant's advantage not to his
detriment because, you know, if he wants to
place it up and he wants to go the hardest
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
route that he can and do everything that the
Code says I think you end up with a much worse
situation there.
I'm going to point out one business and I
like the people and they're very good business
people. I'm a contractor myself, but Cold
Mechanical if you look at Cold Mechanical and
if you want that, John can give it to you.
Okay, with garage doors on all sides of this
one big square building with every contractor,
not owner, but his employees slamming their
doors at between 7 and 8:00 with their engines
running so they have a nice warm place to go
when they go get their coffee at 9:00. You
know, this is what you'll end up with. This
Board is here to look at these situations and
grant variances based on, you know, how the
applicant explains their hardship and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where did you ever
get the idea that we wouldn't grant a variance
from the setback to the building?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not concerned about
that. What I'm hearing this Board say is,
okay, you take care of it. You go and have
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the Building -- convince the Building
Inspector to put this number in. No --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: John --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- quite honestly, if he
-- he should be presenting that to us. That's
part of the application and if we so deem it -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not without a
Notice of Disapproval.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- that it is 48 feet
that he can have 48 feet, but he doesn't want
it because of whatever, that should work to
his advantage, not to his detriment.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't have that in
front of us though.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
actually do it at 48.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
what I
that's
Hold on just a second.
Okay.
He said we could
He's doing it at 84.
84.
Well, to my mind and to
problem with placing these buildings so close
to the road, which is what the average setback
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read in the Planning Board's mind,
a good thing. That's mitigating a
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196
ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
is there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we said to him
please go to the Building Inspector because we
don't act without --
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I object to.
There's no reason for that. We can say in our
decision the reason why --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How can we --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- we're granting the 84
feet is because he could go closer.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who is the person
that deals with the Notice of Disapproval all
the time? That's you. Every single solitary
time, you deal with strictly the Notice of
Disapproval with no variance from it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Absolutely, Gerry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, then we need
to have a Disapproval. I have no objection to
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- them moving the
building up. None at all.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What I'm saying to you,
Gerry, is we can state that in our own
decision without him going back and asking for
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
more
that
ever
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
without a Notice of
We've never done
Disapproval. I don't
remember doing that before.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Gerry, things change so
swiftly around here that you're probably not
right.
BOARD ASST.:
Disapproval, Jim,
Department just did not mention front yard
setback. So --
MS. MESIANO: Okay, if I might interject
again, under the Town Code special exception
standards of Town Law, Special Use Permit (A)
new provisions applicable under Section 274B
of New York Town Law where a proposed special
use permit contains one or more features,
which do not comply with zoning regulations
application may be made to the ZBA for area
variance without the necessary -- I'm quoting
- without the necessary necessity of a
decision of a Building Inspector or other
administrative official charged with the
enforcement of Zoning regulations.
BOARD ASST.: We don't have your
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You know what it is, on the
I think the Building
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198
ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
application, though, for the reduced front
yard setback and that's what's being --
MEMBER DINIZIO: The front yard setback
is reduced already.
BOARD ASST.: But she was reducing it to
29 feet --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. She's not
asking for that.
MEMBER SIMON: 49.
MS. MESIANO: What I'm saying is that
pursuant to 280-43B we're entitled to an
exception based on the average of the setback
of average parcels. So that provides us an
avenue to explore. If we shift everything
forward, perhaps we can give ourselves some
relief on the rear lot line.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure.
MS. MESIANO: Because we can get 50 feet.
Is 50 feet practical for ingress, egress, site
distance, etc.? That's for a designer, not
me.
MR. ROMANELLI: And what I say to
something like that is do we want the building
closer to the road for heavy impact on the
road or do we want it 80 feet back? I sit
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
here as someone making an application saying I
think we want it 80 feet back. I think it's
going to look better on the road. Push comes
to shove, it'll be 40 feet off the road. You
know? So, again, we're trying to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Planning Board is
saying the same thing, John,
MR. ROMANELLI: I know.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay,
MR. ROMANELLI: Again,
in their letter.
so I mean,
I'm trying to --
MEMBER DINIZIO: How many meetings did
you have, public meetings, with them?
MS. MESIANO: We've had no public
meetings. We've met ad nauseum in the
conference room and we've gone nowhere. I
have complied with everything that was
requested of me and we've been met with no
spirit of cooperation and I have to say that
bluntly because I know it's a frustration for
John. I've been submitting these applications
for over six months. I started working with
John in the spring and I've been submitting
these applications for over six months and
I've gotten nowhere.
MR. ROMANELLI: Just to add one thing to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that and this is not a sarcastic comment, you
mentioned our first appearance in front of
this Board was December '07. Let me state for
the record that I never to this day have heard
one thing from the Zoning Board on any
determination from that meeting. Not one, not
a phone call, not a letter, nothing.
BOARD ASST.: They're waiting for you to
file a Special Exception --
MR. ROMANELLI: If my architect wasn't
here on that day I would have never known that
there was a meeting on that day. I mean I
haven't even heard a response back from this
Board. So, you know, it's been quite
frustrating.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask what
kind of response you were asking for, John.
MR. ROMANELLI: Just to say what you
didn't like about it or what you wanted out of
it. I mean, I got nothing, Gerry, I didn't
even get a phone call --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we took an
hour and a half of testimony and -- from the
neighbors, okay, and with the last discussion
we had from the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR.
you got an hour and a half worth
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can read the
transcript.
MR. ROMANELLI: -- unless
and got the transcript and got
architect cause I was away --
BOARD ASST.: Your architect was your
agent, so he could have contacted you on --
MR. ROMANELLI:
you get no notice,
know?
MEMBER SIMON:
ROMANELLI: And I wouldn't know that
of testimony
I'd come down
it from my
MEMBER SIMON:
transcripts.
MR. ROMANELLI:
MEMBER SIMON:
You can read the
No opinion.
If you had called up I
think Linda would have said, look, we don't
issue interim reports but if you want to know
what happened you can read the transcripts.
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ordinarily issue interim reports.
MR. ROMANELLI: Some sort of
determination on some sort of opinion I would
imagine would come forward.
You get no disapproval,
you get nothing. You
I understand. We don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ROMANELLI: Fine.
MEMBER SIMON: That's
MEMBER WEISMAN: Also,
file the Special Exception.
the most we can do.
they needed to
BOARD ASST.: Well, also, (inaudible)
been in our office a couple of times.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
BOARD ASST.: He's your agent.
MR. ROMANELLI: I got it from him.
Right, I got nothing from --
BOARD ASST.: He's the contact person of
record in the application.
MR. ROMANELLI: I got it from him and he
had to come to the Board in order to get it
from --
BOARD ASST.: That's the way it works.
Truly, that's how the system works.
MS. MESIANO: Okay, if I could jump back
to some of the factual elements here. I have
to refer back to 274B and the provision that
allows us to come to you without going to the
Building Department. Am I hearing between the
lines that you will accept a request from us
of that nature? You're not requiring me to go
to the Building Department?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the Town Attorney,
MS. MESIANO:
Code, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Completely up to
that's all I can say.
Well, if it's in the Zoning
If you want to
bring an application in with a modification on
this with a setback from the Main Road based
upon a --
MEMBER OLIVA: Notice of Disapproval?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. A --
MS. MESIANO: The average -- yes, the off
sets.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We did it on the
house across the street on the (Inaudible)
house when they redid that around the corner.
Okay, as I told you, I have not seen it
recently. I have probably never seen it on a
commercial piece of property and I'm just
telling you it's a nuance for me. Okay and
that's the situation. I'm not saying it's
right, I'm not saying it's wrong. I think
what we're doing today is probably the most
fruitful thing I have ever heard based upon an
applicant's submission. Okay? If it
frustrates people, I'm not saying you in
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
particular, or particular people on this
Board, I apologize for that, but this is an
open amount of communication and I think we've
never had with anyone in particular based upon
what we're discussing. I'm just saying in
general --
UNIDENTIFIED: What about the setbacks
from the sidelines?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we haven't
gotten to that yet, sir.
MS. MESIANO: If I can just add to this
amendment to the Town law regarding that
provision was 1991. So it's out there. I'm
very tactile, it's there.
MEMBER SIMON: It's an important point
that should be explored.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need to explore
it.
MEMBER SIMON: We're just saying run it
by the Town Attorney, not necessarily
(inaudible).
MS. MESIANO: Well, if I wait for
somebody's approval I'll be older and grayer.
My next point --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just make one
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cormment about that particular approach or
strategy. I think John had an important point
which is that everything is a kind of
balancing act when you go to the site plan
design and economic profit and loss and so on.
By moving the thing forward in order to move
building 1 closer to the road to provide a
lesser variance for the rear yard setbacks and
perhaps a little more quiet for the
residential character back there, you also
have a -- if you continue to propose a 100-
foot -- 100 lineal foot elevation then you'll
have an even greater impact
if you set it back.
MS. MESIANO: Yes.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's
You have to really determine,
on the road than
a juggling act.
you know, and
that's partly our job, partly your job, your
architect's job and the Planning Board's job
is to mitigate all of the various impacts and
to find the most reasonable, least intrusive
solution --
MR. ROMANELLI: Absolutely.
MS. MESIANO: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- for all parties
concerned. I think it's kind of important for
us to get some testimony from any other
concerned parties at this point and -- cause
this isn't substantially different than from a
year ago in terms of what you're proposing.
MR. ROMANELLI:
more detail on it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Right. It's just got
We have had a lot, a lot
of testimony from, you know, from the
applicant's, your agent's point of view and I
think in fairness we should probably hear from
those other parties that are affected.
MS. MESIANO: Excuse me, if you don't
mind, I just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We're really far behind.
MS. MESIANO:
salient point that
it's releve~t --
There's just one other
I'd like to add because
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MS. MESIANO: -- and then I'll be happy
to step aside. There is also a provision in
the Zoning Code that refers to the area and,
to paraphrase, the Planning Board has the
latitude to grant relief, grant a waiver of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the 40,000 square foot requirement in this
when you can prove that the lot is single and
separate. I've had a single and separate
search done and that is another issue that
I'll take to the Planning Board and I think
that we can eliminate degrees of the variances
by implementation of that as well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that would be very
useful.
MS. MESIANO: Yeah, the point I want to
make to the Board and I think I said at first
and I have to say it again, is that we know
that this isn't the last drawing and we're
willing to work with the Board and all we're
asking for is somebody to be willing to work
with us because we just run in circles and we
get nowhere and it's very frustrating and it's
very costly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In true response to
that, we have never not worked with a person
and just a prime example with what we did with
the property in Mattituck, we will admit to
you that we had jurisdiction on two variances
and a residential parking lot in back of it.
That was the extent of it, okay, but that was
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
basically the situation.
MR. ROMANELLI: Gerry, I would say our
frustration really doesn't lie with this
Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. You know
what the things that you were bringing out
today were very important for us to understand
because there are things that we just don't do
all the time ordinarily. We don't do that
much commercial stuff all the time.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mattituck was a
unique situation, but Mattituck took a year.
There's no question about it and I don't think
he's still there with the curb cuts. I'm not
sure if he is at this particular point on
that.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're a year
down here. So I think what you need to do,
we'll leave it open, is to communicate with us
and then tell us when you think we need to go
back and see where you are and we will --
we'll address anything that you want us to do.
MR. ROMANELLI: Do you correspond now
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
from any point with the Planning Board from
this hearing? Will you give them any sort of
input from this hearing or the Planning is --
we're going back to them blind?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, here's where
the difference is, we don't have presubmission
conferences.
MR. ROMANELLI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
really -- since
Okay, we're not
it's an Appeal Board we really
can't.
MR. ROMANELLI: Well
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
nothing is changed.
(Inaudible).
Number 2, do we speak to them? Of course.
Okay, we'd like to know where they're going
with SEQRA at this particular point, alright,
and so that we know that everything is moving
in a forward direction. Alright, the whole
issue in general is tell us what you want to
do with the site plan at this point and how it
affects any of the variances. Please take
care of the lot line change to best of your
ability as quickly as you can.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And let's get it
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
done. Let's go.
MEMBER SIMON: I, for one, am interested
in encouraging better communication than we
have now with the Planning -- Planning Board
is one of the areas in which we do not have
problems with dealing with them. Okay, so I
think both sides would be interested in
helping to coordinate this better. I think
this is a good case, by the way, for what a
lot of us have talked about in the Town about
having the Boards less like separate islands.
This is a case where I believe it could work
to everybody's best interest. So we -- I'm
all in favor of doing more of this.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the other aspect
of it is we've already received, from the lead
agent, we've already received comments from
the Planning Board, which would seem it is not
inappropriate and would be constructive to do
so to provide comments based on today's
hearing back to the Planning Board.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that they're aware of
what happened here, they ought to probably
have a copy of the transcript also so that
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
it existed.
feet, okay,
in.
your points are --
MEMBER SIMON: That's a good idea.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- something that they
can think about, your concerns, and we'll get
all the information out to all parties
concerned.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the issue
on the setback of the main building would be
what amount of buffer the Planning Board is
going to require because you really need to
pull the cars in, pull the cars out.
MR. ROMANELLI: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And a turn around
basis and the cars and a truck is 22 feet and
a car is 18 to 20. So those are the issues
you need to deal with on that basis and I
think that's a positive step, but let's find
out because that's what we ran into the
problem with in Mattituck with the used car
dealer. That's where the issue was, that I
think was 15 feet and that was not 15 feet as
The Planning Board wanted 15
and that's where that issue came
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, shall we go to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
public --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Let me say one little
thing. When we get the transcript on this I
can send this to the Planning Board in
writing, too, so that they'll have all the
information and know all the discussions that
went on today.
MR. ROMANELLI: Good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, so -- I don't
want to limit you. Do you want a hearing date
for this in March? We can give you a hearing
date in March and we'll see where everybody is
at that particular point. We're three months
down the line at that point.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yes.
MS. MESIANO: Yes, absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. March 19.
March 19th, what? 2:00, 1:007
BOARD ASST.: It would be 2:15.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: 2:00,
MS. MESIANO:
2:157
2:15.
I'm sorry.
March 197
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah 2:00.
MEMBER SIMON: We still have to hear from
the public.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I know.
We're only setting things down that's all.
Ladies and gentlemen you've been very
patient and we appreciate that. We are still
working the site plan, as you have just heard.
There will be revisions to it. Unfortunately,
we did not do what we usually should do and
that is put the site plan down and let
everybody look at it prior to you dealing with
any comments. However, there really has been
no significant change in the site plan since
the original submission of last year. We will
do that the next time on March 19. I will
take any comments at this time.
would you state your name for the
Sir,
record?
MR. STURKIN:
Cutchogue, New York.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. STURKIN: Okay.
Tony Sturkin (sic)
How are you?
I have just a couple
of quick comments and I'll get out of your
hair. The first one is the aesthetics and I'm
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
not against development, but I understand
limited business means whatever gets
constructed there should meet the rule and
historic character of the area. That's my
concern, I have direct site line to the
property. A bunch of us have well maintained
older homes that are registered historical
places and I would like to see that
maintained. The second thing is I would like
point out being a contractor myself for well
over thirty years is contractor storage. I
well remember the beer parties late in the
afternoon on a Friday with the boom boxes
going and the same wacky -- let's say how
could I put this -- reparte in the morning
first thing yelling and screaming and things
getting started and blue diesel smoke is
setting over the site. So just something that
you folks might want to consider when you're
considering storage.
Guys do work on the weekend, they get the
boss' permission to use the torches and do a
little body work and so on and so forth. So
there's going to be some banging and the
younger the construction guy is nowadays, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
louder the noise is. That's how we find them
on the job, listen for the noise, that's where
they are.
The only other thing I would add is that
personally I would like to see the farther
setback from the Main Road with some
appropriate screening and life will be good
and we all move on and those of us that have
little businesses on the Main Road, by the
way, we like traffic. So that's not
necessarily a bad thing for everybody. So as
long as it's within the scale and it conforms
more or less to the rural and historic
character I could go along with it. As it
looks now, though, it's sort of like a hodge
podge.
Thank you for your time.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I want to ask you a
question. Rural and historic character, what
do you mean? I mean if you're going to put a
business there what do you mean you want to
have shingles or --
MR. STURKIN: No, I mean it has to
conform. I live in a Dutch Colonial.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I mean conform
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
doesn't mean that everybody along your road
has to build a Dutch Colonial house.
MR. STURKIN: Alright, it shouldn't look
like the storage facility on 48 near the
landfill.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. STURKIN: Those are essentially
Butler buildings. What I'm talking about is
something with multi-pane light windows and
some sort of little gingerbreads.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so --
MR. STURKIN: Some sort of porch where
when the tourists go by they take a quick look
and they say, oh, that looks nice. Sort of
like Easthampton style, if you will, for lack
of a better terminology.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, I can think of
plenty of places in Easthampton that you
wouldn't want to look at. Number two, say he
builds a square building. You live in the
neighborhood.
MR. STURKIN: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now he's going to put
garage doors all the way around the side of
this building. You know as well as I do
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
what's going to happen in the morning. Those
guys are going to pull the trucks out, if
they're not already out in the parking lot.
MR. STURKIN: Exactly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They're going to start
them up. Right, if they're diesel, right, on
a nice fall morning it smells pretty good.
MR. STURKIN: Exactly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Or -- and certainly they
are going to be closer to the homes as opposed
to what he has like here. Like a kind of a
corral where the buildings will shield the
engine noise and the guys slamming the doors.
The buildings will shield that, that's what it
looks like to --
MR. STURKIN: Hopefully, they will. You
know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean it will certainly
more than a square building.
MR. STURKIN: I tend to agree.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. I mean do you
have an objection to -- I mean that's a -- to
me it looks to me like the applicant's trying
to mitigate that --
MR. STURKIN: I don't have a problem with
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
things being out of view and remediated as
best as possible for the situation.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so I mean
you're kind of on the same track. I mean out
of scale is kind of relative if you're talking
two-story buildings or are you talking about
the amount of garage doors or units that are
going to be there. Is that something that's
MR.
better.
that's out of sight.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
sight you know that's
STURKIN: The more out of sight the
We don't have a problem with anything
Yeah, but I mean out of
even -- I mean all the
garage doors are going to be in the back. So
all you're going to see in the front is a
front porch. You know, with house -- probably
those little lights and stuff --
MR. STURKIN: I don't have a problem with
what I'm seeing in the front.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Really? So, okay, what
would be your objection then?
MR. STURKIN: If it's heavily screened in
the rear and the doors and everything else is
on the inside, for lack of a better
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
terminology.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. STURKIN:
appropriate to me.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
thing?
MR. STURKIN:
Right.
That would certainly seem
Like the corral kind of
I would say so, yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No parking in the back
of these buildings? No storage --
MR. STURKIN: There's going to be
parking, I mean --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I mean it
doesn't look like there has to be. I mean it
looks to me like especially the buildings in
the back, the two smaller buildings.
MR. STURKIN: Right, yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, you don't want
them taking their conduit and placing it in
the back. There should be none of that.
MR. STURKIN: There shouldn't be, but
there's --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No cars, right? No, we
can restrict that.
MR. STURKIN: Oh okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, to the point where
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
it could be all bushes if you want that.
MR. STURKIN: Uh-huh.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And no doors going out
that way.
MR. STURKIN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, we can't run
afoul of the fire codes.
MR. STURKIN: Oh, exactly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But certainly we can
restrict it to a point where it's going to be
just green back there.
MR. STURKIN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
get out if there's a
objection to that?
MR. STURKIN:
And a door for them to
fire. You have no
No, I wouldn't.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And that would kind of
mitigate your concerns about the guys --
MR. STURKIN: It would, but you --
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- throwing the ball,
the Christmas parties.
MR. STURKIN: Oh, well if they invite me
it's not a problem, but --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. STURKIN: -- just one quick question.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Is that, speaking of storage areas and the
potential for hazardous material, fuels and
oils, are there going to be fire sprinklers?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Whatever the Code is.
MR. STURKIN: Oh okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I have a feeling that
those buildings probably have to be sprinkled.
MR. STURKIN: Oh alright.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And they're probably
going to -- I'm hoping that they have to have
Central Station Fire Alarms, but that might
not be.
MR. STURKIN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I lose there, too, but
in any case usually that's what the insurance
company is going to require.
MR. STURKIN: Okay. Fine, thank you. I
don't want to take anybody else's time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else? Sir,
we didn't get your name the last time.
MR. CAPELLO: I'm Guido Capello. I live
with my wife, Sherry (inaudible}, on a site
that's directly abutting Mr. Romanelli's site.
I've known Mr. Romanelli, I've been his
customer for close to 20 years. We basically
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understand what he's going to do. It's a very
small site and we have an understanding of
that.
I think I'd like to add my two cents to
having as much screening as possible to the
site because obviously on the side,
particularly near Mr. Bauer's, there's only 20
feet according to this plan. It's very small.
We need to maximize, I think, the amount of
screening and try to contain whatever activity
goes on in this area in a manner that is at
least -- at least minimizes the contact with
the neighbors. Our house was built in the
1890s. There would be a contradiction, John,
to having flat buildings, you know, right in
back of us. I think you have to take that --
you should, I hope you do -- take that into
account.
Now from our point of view, obviously
we'd like to have a rose garden back there,
but that ain't life. It's not life and we
understand that, but please understand that
we'd like to have the impact of this activity,
from our point of view, at least minimized. I
don't know whether (inaudible) Bauer has any
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different comments (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I just ask you
some more questions? I just want to be clear.
MR. CAPELLO: Thank you, sir. Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: When you say you want to
have the impact, okay, minimized. Now I'm
sure John would let you have a rose garden
back there if you maintained it. Okay, I
don't think he'd have -- again, this
application is more about mitigation than it
is about anything else. It's about you could
build a square cube on there following the
Codes, okay, that would be -- no one would
like. No one would like not even the people
working out of the building would like it or
you could split this up a little bit and
lessen -- I mean it could be a two-story
building now. Mind you, it could be 35 feet
high or you could add these one-story
buildings in the back. They don't face you,
no activity goes on. Maybe we have to move
them in a little more, but 20 feet seems to me
like not too bad, but in any case don't you
think that that minimizes it taking that
building and not allowing any activity on
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
those -- your side and just having that corral
part where the guys will have to pull their
trucks and do their thing in there and, you
know, you got a 40-foot building buffering the
noise and whatnot?
MR. CAPELLO: Mr. Dinizio, look Mr.
Romanelli is not a charitable organization.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I --
MR. CAPELLO: Now there must be a reason
why he opted to go with this design of three
buildings such as they may be and to maximize
the parking areas or not in between rather
than a single building. I don't know anything
about his financial analyses or anything like
that, but I have to assume the man is pretty
smart there must be some economic rationale
for his opting for this particular thing.
No, but do you object or
MEMBER DINIZIO:
not?
MR. CAPELLO: No sir.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh okay.
MR. CAPELLO: From my point of view all
I'm saying and I'm adding my two cents to this
gentleman is let's maximize, if we can, the
buffer. Okay and, if you can, let's try to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
get Mr. Romanelli to get this thing to fit
into the neighborhood as much as possible.
That was my comment.
MEMBER DINIZIO: See I'm trying to figure
out what exactly is that to you. What does
that mean to you, fitting into the
neighborhood, what does that --
MR. CAPELLO: Well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Hey, listen, we don't
live there. We don't look at it, okay, you
do. Okay, it's
going to change.
What is it that
your neighborhood and it's
There's no doubt about that.
you envision when you're
sitting out in the summer looking at whatever
ends up there? Would it be, I mean, what
would it be, besides not having it?
MR. CAPELLO: I'm not an architect,
either. I mean this is something that I need
to defer and, you know, let someone who knows
how to do these things design something that
makes sense in the context of the
neighborhood. What can I tell
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, do
the buildings the way they are
MEMBER WEISMAN:
you?
you object to
now?
He hasn't seen them,
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a very
difficult site to understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I mean the
placement of the buildings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a difficult
site to understand.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean are you worried
about the color of the buildings, the roof,
the roof style?
MR. CAPELLO: About the noise, about some
of the --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
thought.
MR. CAPELLO:
of it.
Yeah, that's what I
-- activities, true. Ail
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. CAPELLO: But
defer to Mr. Romanelli
of those impacts.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
interject one --
Right.
at this point I have to
to try to minimize any
Excuse me, may I just
MR. CAPELLO: I guess we'll see that --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Sure, I'm just trying to
find out from you if you think that that has
been done.
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MR. CAPELLO: I don't know yet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: He doesn't know.
MR. CAPELLO: Ail I have is a site plan.
I haven't seen any building designs.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't have the
building designs.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't know what --
BOARD ASST.: There's no --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, no Garrett has
provided some diagramatic elements.
to
MR. CAPELLO: I'm sorry. I --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I just wanted
find out what makes one happy.
MR. CAPELLO: I just don't know much more
than what I am telling you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you, sir. I
appreciate it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just wanted to
interject one comment specifically addressed
to your concerns. Yes, I believe that as part
of the site planning process that the Planning
Board goes through the architectural review
committee will have to examine these buildings
from an architectural perspective in addition
to which lighting design will have to be
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
examined to make sure that it's shielded. No
light might spill going onto residential
properties. There would have to be security
lighting, but, you know, it has to be in
keeping with dark skies and all of that sort
of stuff so that you're not seeing that at
night. So there are other levels of review at
the building scale as well as the Department
of Transportation is going to have to look at
environmental traffic in and out. Safety
issues getting on and off the site in trucks,
congestion, that
complicated.
MR. CAPELLO:
understanding as
sort of stuff. So it's
Right and that has been my
well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to assure
you that although we have and there's no
reason why you can't get a copy of these, come
into our office, we have some fairly schematic
architectural drawings. The elevations and
the floor plans for all three buildings that
an architect, Garrett Strang, has submitted as
part of the package that we have and I see no
reason why any member of the public shouldn't
have a look at those as they are now, which
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
would potentially be revised, but have a look
and if you have any comments that you would
like to make in writing, you know, that's fine
too.
MR. CA?ELLO: When we see them, we'll be
happy to, but in due time. We don't have
them.
MS. MESIANO: Excuse me. Could I just
point out a small section of the Code for the
benefit of the neighbors because I'm hearing a
common thread and I just wanted to point out
that the Code provides for and requires there
be transition buffers between -- on Mr.
Romanelli's property where it abuts the
residential properties.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to use
the mike.
MS. MESIANO: I'm sorry. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it on --
MS. MESIANO: Okay.
-- a common theme to the
Cause we're taking
I'm hearing a common
comments of the
neighbors and I thought it might be helpful if
I pointed out that the Zoning Code provides
for transition buffer area and that would be
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that area on Mr. Romanelli's property where it
is adjacent to your properties and it is a
buffering and the minimum width of the buffer
area in a Limited Business District is 20
feet. So right off the bat you've got a 20-
foot buffer. It goes on to say that it shall
be of evergreen, it gives specifications, a
landscaped earthen berm wall or fence may be
designed where you have existing topography
landscape that provides screening that can be
augmented with additional plantings. It
doesn't have to be all cut down and a row of
arborvitaes put up. We can work creatively
with the vegetation that's there, put some
fencing in. You know, I'm sure I'm not
speaking out of line if I say, you know, Mr.
Romanelli would be happy to walk the perimeter
and say, gee, if I owned this house what would
it look like from there, would a fence be
appropriate, would a couple of trees be
appropriate? That's provided for within the
Code, so I'm hearing that in these comments.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Mr. Bauer, could you state your name
please?
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. BAUER: Yeah, William Bauer, 350
Skunk Lane, Cutchogue. My one thing while
John is still here if he didn't run away, how
many rentals are you going to try and put in
there, John? That's what's -- like in the
front building and each one of the back
buildings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to use
the mike, sorry.
MR. ROMANELLI: Well, that's really
unknown. The back buildings may end up being
used for my own personal business storage.
The front building, the 100-foot building
plan is divided up into four
right now on the
units.
MR. BAUER:
That's what I was thinking.
MR. ROMANELLI: Yeah, 25 feet by 60 feet
long and the back buildings at this stage I'm
planning them for me.
MR. BAUER: And the two, if you decided
not to put your own stuff in the back, which
you probably don't need two buildings for,
you'd only use one.
MR. ROMANELLI: Those two buildings.
Those two buildings in the back are designed
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
as one building, you know, so they're not
designed as subdividable buildings.
MR. BAUER: Oh, alright.
MR. ROMANELLI: The two buildings in the
back are designed as one building and two
building.
MR. BAUER:
at the most six
So what we're looking at is
tenants?
MR. ROMANELLI: At the most it has four
in the front and two in the back. It would be
six tenants.
MR. BAUER: Okay, that's my big question
and if you was to take the contract, like they
had up at the (inaudible) building up there
like that thick, you can write into that
contract to keep the stuff out of the yard.
MR. ROMANELLI: Absolutely. You know, to
be quite honest if you look at the site plan
there the -- there's a dumpster and there's an
unloading platform. There is no outside
storage put into the site plan. With that put
in mind, I mean, we're looking not to store
outside. Yeah, you know, you might have a
truck parked outside, but we're not looking to
store -- we're not allowing a spot on the site
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
plan for a mason to leave cement blocks and
leave scaffolding.
MR. BAUER: And his concrete mixer and
the forms and --
MR. ROMANELLI: Right. We put no outside
storage on the site plan with that in mind and
we put enough garage doors in so there should
be no reason for outside storage.
MR. BAUER: You've
for each back unit?
MR. ROMANELLI: Um,
got two garage doors
I'd have to look.
Two on one and three on the other, I believe.
MR. BAUER: Cause the (inaudible) we got
is only -- we don't know what we got cause all
you see is the square foot.
MR. ROMANELLI: The square footage. You
see the aerial view, right. The one building
has two, the other one has three garage doors,
but they're designed as one building. We're
not subdividing on the inside.
MR. CAPELLO: Are you going to store all
trucks and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
mike.
MR. ROMANELLI:
We have to use the
I don't plan on moving my
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office from Youngs Avenue
on doing that not
storage facility,
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to -- I do not plan
unless you let me put an oil
which I think is out of the
I just want to
mention that you all have the right to
continue the comments on March 19. We would
like to move along. I do not want to restrict
anybody, I would like to recess this hearing
unless someone else would like to speak that
may not be here on March 19.
MS. GENOVESE: My name is Jeanie Genovese
and I live at 580 Skunk Lane. On the site map
it says Nico, but it's not. It belongs to
Genovese. My family and I live there and It's
directly behind the property.
When we bought the property back in 2000
we knew that it was LB, but we never would
have imagined it would have been this. A
conglomeration of things. We thought maybe,
you know, a country bookstore. You know, a
store like the Down Home Store, something like
that, but, you know, like I said last December
20th when I was here for the last meeting it's
like trying to stuff 10 pounds of potatoes in
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
a one-pound bag. You know, we're zoned
residential and I know it's LB, but, you know,
my family lives there. I don't want to be
hearing, you know, men or women doing whatever
at 6:30, 7:00 in the morning whatever going
on. You know, I'd rather have a winery just
on the weekends than something that could be
24/7, bright lights, you know, it's just not -
- you know, it seems like everyone is so
concerned about, even Mr. Romanelli said, you
know, he wants to keep things out of sight
from Main Road, but that moves everything back
so it's in full sight of us.
On the site map it says natural buffer.
There is no natural buffer that abuts us in
the back anymore cause Midgley's grandson,
Cliff, cut it all down in 2007. So that's --
that map is wrong on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Probably uniquely
they wouldn't be able to use it anyway.
There'll be a new buffer all the way around,
but I -- you know, the concession that Mr.
Romanelli just brought up was the issue of him
using it for dead storage, those two buildings
in the back. It's probably a very positive
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step.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think Mr.
Romanelli said it would be dead storage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't mean dead
storage in reference to dead storage. I mean
the ability of going --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would (inaudible)
personally. I mean he wanted -- these are
going to be usable buildings, both of them,
but only by one entity.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and he happens
to be the owner of the property, so he's going
take much better care than anybody else will.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That doesn't mean that
- it doesn't mean that if Mr. -- because you
want to be clear. I don't want you to get the
impression that they're just going to throw
paper towels in these buildings to store them
for some place. They're going to be
buildings. Both of these buildings are going
to be used for things.
MS. GENOVESE: I know.
MEMBER DINIZIO: A plumber can go in
there, an electrician can go in there,
whatever.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MS. GENOVESE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a contractor's
place.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, contractors and
you are right about the noise that it can
generate and we're here -- he's here because
he wants to mitigate that.
MS. GENOVESE: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, we can do plenty
of things to mitigate that, okay, by
restrictions and, you know, I see where you
are. You're probably in the least desirable
spot.
MS. GENOVESE: You got it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you know I mean
we can -- there's a lot of things you can do
there. You can put berms there, you know, to
help the noise. You can build, you know, a
nice --
MS.
doesn't
GENOVESE: Well, bersm, you know, it
really cut out -- what does it cut
out? 10 percent of the noise?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, no there's a lot
of things you can do. There's a lot of things
you can do to help mitigate that and certainly
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
if you have an idea of how you would like it
now is the time to --
MS. GENOVESE:
There, obviously.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I don't want anything
Okay, fine. Okay, well
-- okay, assuming that there's going to be
something there, what would -- would there be
anything that would be --
MS. GENOVESE: I don't want to be able to
look at it. I don't want to know --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. Okay, so --
MS. GENOVESE: -- it's there. When I'm
in my residential neighborhood, you know,
that's what I -- you know, something like this
it's possible it's going to devalue our
residences as well.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well --
MS. GENOVESE: On a resale value, I mean,
who would want to live to next to something
out of Brooklyn, you know?
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- I don't --
MS. GENOVESE: I just I don't think it's
right, obviously, I just really don't.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Screening would be good.
You could put evergreens or whatever that
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would be.
MS. GENOVESE: Yeah, but that still
doesn't take away that, you know, you're not
going to get rid of the noise and the smell
and the bright lights and cars and trucks
going in and out of there and everything else.
You know, it's just not -- already last winter
I was staring at some of his oil trucks that
were abutting right, you know, the back of my
property and I called him up and I asked him
if he would, you know, move the trucks. He
basically said to me well I don't want to move
them up closer to the road cause who wants to
look at some old crappy oil trucks and I said
well they might not want to see them on 25,
but they're right up my butt. How come I have
to look at them? That's what's going to
happen again, I'm sure of it, because it
turned into an argument. The man yelled at me
and he hung up. Correct? My husband called
back, you hung up on him. We're not dealing
with --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Address your
comments to the Board.
MS. GENOVESE: I'm just saying that if
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
this
this
okay,
is the path that we're going to -- if
is the path that we're going to go down,
if something is going on and we're going
to call up and say, you know, hey turn it
down, whatever, we're not going to get an
That's another problem.
Well, I understand your
I understand what
agreeable response.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
anger. I understand.
you're saying.
MS. GENOVESE:
family is concerned,
Period. Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Okay. So as far as my
we don't want it.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Midgley? Oh,
I'm sorry.
Please, you need to come up here and use
the mike. Please.
MR. MIDGELLY: I can use the mike. She
just made a statement, an accusation that my
grandson or my nephew cut out all the trees
and brush. I don't know when he did it, she
said 2007. Now I'd like to take her to court
and let her prove it.
She has got a raked path from their house
across to John's property, it's not raked
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right now cause the weeds are all grown back
in, so the bed and breakfast people can go to
the winery across John's property. She has a
Doberman, we have a leash law in this town.
The Doberman, I don't know if he even goes to
the bathroom in her yard or not, but he
certainly goes over on John's property and as
far as the back of Bill Bauer's property and
the back of mine. I've had several people,
including myself, have the unfortunate
(inaudible) of tracking some dog stuff in the
house. I don't appreciate it. I walk my dog
with a leash and I think she can keep her dog
on her property and not complain about
neighbors.
This property has been business property
since the 1800s. There was a store there, a
general store. There was a blacksmith shop
there. I don't suppose he made any noise to
disturb the neighbors and then there was a
seed catalog, a plant catalog operation there
by my grandfather. My father started
carpentering in 1920. He was a contractor.
I'm still a carpenter and they're working off
that property. So it's been business property
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all these years. Other people move in they
don't want new business. It happened here in
this town a few years ago trying to eliminate
small businessmen from operating out of their
homes, small contractors. They have to have
some place to work. They've got to have
equipment or they're not going to be much of a
contractor. They're starting out they can't
go out and buy a piece of business property.
They need something to be able to rent a place
to store their equipment and we don't need
negative, we need positive
You're losing all the
the town.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
in this town.
young people out of
That's right.
MR. MIDGELLY: Let's think positive.
What John's plan is I'd okay it right now if I
were you, it's a good plan. He's got plenty
of clearance around all the buildings. He
complied with what the Building Department
didn't like whatever it was, what more can you
ask?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
understand, Mr. Midgley,
Well, you have to
that we're still
waiting for a couple of things to be done
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
before we can even address that issue.
MR. MIDGELLY: Well, I've been there in
the Building Department many times through the
years getting permits. Talk about runaround,
this Town, I think, has got the top dollar on
runaround. Go to get a permit, oh no, you
have to have Zoning Board of Appeals. Okay,
so you -- oh no, you have to go to the
Planning Board first. One day they tried to
run me around the circle three times in this
building and when I left I had nothing.
People have got to work together. You've
got all these different Boards, so somebody
better consolidate them and get them to work
together. So some of the questions here this
afternoon were absolutely unnecessary if
everybody worked together and knew what the
other guy was doing. Time to straighten it
out. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I
believe the young lady in the back wanted to
speak.
How are you?
MS. BAILEY: I think everything has been
answered. My name is Pat Bailey. I'm from
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Cutchogue. I am the little tiny house lot
next door and it also was built in 1840 and
I'm very concerned about the 20 feet. 20 feet
is not a lot and the noise and knowing that
you're going to have possibly six rentals on
one piece of property that's how many acres?
MEMBER WEISMAN: One and a half.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One and a half.
MS. BAILEY: One and a half acres.
That's less than I have my house on. So that'
concerns me to have six rentals on one and a
half acres. That's a big concern and why does
he need to have such a big building in the
front if he's going to have the other two?
Why can't that be three rentals? Why does he
have to have such a big -- I just can't see
it. I just -- it's too much for an acre and a
half. Three buildings, three buildings that
you can rent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
dearly like to recess this
time.
MR. BAUER: This has nothing to do with
that. I just want to throw one thing out, I
don't know if you're the right people or not,
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hearing at this
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
but if you look at any of these plans here
where the handicap parking you got a place for
the ramp to drop down. You guys got so much
parking around here you don't have one
stinking place here for the ramp to drop down.
You got two parking places for the
handicapped, it just don't jive with what
you're asking the rest of the people in the
town to do.
It stinks, you can't even get in and out
of here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you for pointing
out the hypocrisy, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion recessing the
hearing until March 19th of 2009 subject to the
following issues that were in front of us and
that is SEQRA and lot line change and any
other issues that we can address such as the
average setback issue, any changes in site
plan that you would like to make, any
increased setbacks in the back, you've heard
that situation today, and definitely, and I
realize that we don't necessarily do that, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
I'm sure that these people would like to see
some sort of a landscape plan if you could
give it to us on what you intend to do back
there because I think that would be helpful to
all of us.
MR. ROMANELLI: I believe the Planning
Board has that already.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, can we get a
copy of that?
MR. ROMANELLI: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: We'll send you a letter
confirming everything. Send it to you or Ms.
Mesiano?
MR. ROMANELLI:
US.
Send it, uh, to both of
BOARD ASST.: I'll copy to you, I'll send
it to Cathy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we thank you.
I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
a
HEARING %6198 Steve
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
and Olga Tenedios
The next appeal is
recessed appeal from the last hearing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Mrs. Moore, I'm just going to say to you
that we are gratuitously coming to you with
this hearing for the purposes of questioning
the Building Inspector, if you have certain
questions. I assure you, it is going to be a
short hearing.
MRS. MOORE: Well, we actually had a very
good meeting out in the hallway and I think
that there are certainly some issues that we
need to address and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can raise those
issues, but that is it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Do you want me to then
have Mike come to the --
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) could you just
tell us what you placed on the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's for
(inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Oh sorry.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry.
Well at the last hearing we talked about
the pile plan that it needed to be very
specifically designed so that to reflect the
pile construction (inaudible) FEMA with the
house that would be placed on the piles and
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
(inaudible) specifically for that and Joe why
don't you describe briefly the pile plan.
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I actually asked
for it.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yes, you asked for it,
Gerry asked for it.
Joe Fischetti. What I did there is
basically there's a legend at the bottom. The
pile plan that was done by the architect was
an architectural pile plan, it really had no
relationship of holding anything up. This
plan at least is designed for the pink areas
are the existing
relocated on top
two structures.
additions to the
structures, which will be
of this, which is actually
The green area is the
structure, reconstruction,
and the beige areas are the decking areas. So
it is what it is right there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Fischetti, the
decking areas, are those increased areas or
they're existing?
MR. FISCHETTI: Ail of this is within the
footprint of what's there. Now, some of this
-- yeah, the cantilevered areas to the right
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
cover the concrete walkways. There's concrete
walkways in the front and those show those
cantilevered areas and basically this is the
footprint of what was there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FISCHETTI: You asked me at the last
meeting some alternatives. I discussed with
John Costello we talked about screw piles. I
think you know what screw piles are. If we
use screw piles and we would not have to move
the house, but the problem becomes because we
have to comply with FEMA, screw piles are
flush with the ground and we're talking about
built structures underneath them, which are
concrete and that would be able to support the
lateral loads of the waves, which would make
it very, very complicated to do that. So
doing friction piles, which is -- friction
piles are very -- this is what's done before
and much less costly, even though this is
going to be very costly, so there really isn't
an alternative without lifting those other
houses, moving them out of place and
installing 8-inch friction piles in place.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think I've
ever seen a tri- or quad-colored piling plan.
MR. FISCHETTI: Isn't that nice? Yeah, I
did it for you because I wanted you to know
what was happening here. We have the great --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You didn't need to
share that with the public.
MR. FISCHETTI: When we have the new
printers, the three color printers, it's great
they really let you know what's going on.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's very nice.
Very nicely done, thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: You're welcome.
MRS. MOORE: I guess before Mike gets up
to talk about -- answer the questions that you
have, one of the issues --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the answer you
want, you probably asked him already.
MRS. MOORE: One of the issues -- okay.
One of the issues that came up is that we have
a -- when we started this process we gave the
same set of plans to you as we gave to the
Trustees, which describe the fact that we had
to move the existing structure out of the way
because of the piles, then build the piles as
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
you've seen, and then place the structure back
on the piles that have been installed.
Obviously, you can't do it through a building,
you have to move the building out of the way
and put the structure on top. Thereafter, we
can start reconstructing the, well, build the
addition that goes between the existing
structures and then reconstruct the existing
structures so that we will then conform to the
State Building Code.
We have the difficulty of having three
different laws that are applicable here. We
have the Coastal Erosion Law, which we are
dealing with and have gone to the Trustees
for, which specifically the Trustees' permit
says we are not to demolish. The concern that
we talked about in the hallway was that we
need -- whatever the decision is of this
Board, that we can't describe it as a
demolition. It is reconstruction. In fact,
when you read the notice that was put in the
paper, it speaks in terms of new dwelling
after removal of existing buildings. We are
specifically going through all of these
contortions not to do that and the concern
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that we had is that whatever the decision is
how you write it is going to be very important
because if you call this demolition and you
say it's a new building then we're going to
invalidate the Trustees' permit that
specifically allowed us to go through the
steps as we described them to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what I
specifically said to you. The minute you
sever it off of that parapet, okay, it becomes
personal property.
MRS. MOORE: No. No, I would -- I would
-- that is not -- I would respectfully
disagree with that analysis. You're dealing
with a mobile home in that type of situation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not necessarily.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that that is personal
property, real estate, the house itself is not
personal separate and apart from the land. I
think Joe gave you the example if that's the
case then, you know, you're essentially you're
still connected, in a sense, to the ground by
virtue of the movement -- the Davis Brothers
that has the structure on rollers on a
structure to move it out of the way.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's true if you
raise it up and you put a structural
foundation underneath it because you're using
a similar footprint --
MRS. MOORE: If you --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- or the same
footprint.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that is what we're
doing here. We're using the same footprint
for the existing structure, but you're
hampered by -- if you do that, raise it out
the way, I think the reaction was that we're
going to be on top of the
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of the way.
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
wetlands on --
We didn't say out
If you were
of
to lift
Joe,
it we have the pile drivers equipment.
you tell me.
MR. FISCHETTI: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay, is there any way
of doing this in such a way where you only
lift the house?
MR. FISCHETTI: No, as I just explained -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Screw pilings,
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right.
MR. FISCHETTI:
the ground.
It's always connected to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
what the Building
then --
MRS. MOORE:
Let's just hear
Inspector has to say and
Okay, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and then, I
realize and we're not trying in any way to
give you a decision that's --
MRS. MOORE: Invalidates another one.
Right, right. Okay. Alright, I'll let Mike
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mike, could we
speak to you?
MR. VERITY: Sure. Mike Verity, Chief
Building Inspector, Town of Southold.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
this word, demolition, was
particular problem. Okay?
We had no idea that
going to cause this
Can you just give
us an idea of why you used that word,
demolition?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Why I used
the word demolition?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
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BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY:
used the word demolition --
BOARD ASST.: Do you want
Disapproval?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY:
familiar with the Disapproval.
from the existing house to what
Um, why I
to look at the
No, I'm
Basically,
is proposed,
it appears, between the elevations that it is
a demo and a reconstruction of an existing
dwelling. Again, you could say demolition
basically has 100 different versions of a
definition. As we, in the hallway --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But are you using a
percentage to make that determination? In
other words, is there any credence to what I
- what my feeling is concerning this thing and
that is the minute you sever it from the
property and take it away from its original
location and then even bring it back in an
alternate sense, alright, is there in your
mind and all we're doing is soul searching
here --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: In my mind,
it's kind of the same idea that's why we wrote
the Disapproval that way. There is a concern
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that it's basically a teardown and a rebuild.
If you didn't have the Coastal Erosion hazard
line where it is you wouldn't have the
problem. They could do it with your blessing
on a couple of zoning issues, but that's where
the problem lies and I'm trying to tiptoe
around this because I don't want to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I don't want
to put you in an awkward position.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah. I
don't want to discourage the project. I'm not
for and I'm not against, but at the end of the
day this is going to now be a FEMA compliant
house, which it is now not. So it is going to
make your insurance, my insurance, the Town --
the FEMA insurance is based on townwide
properties, not just one individual property.
So and fire safety wise and life safety wise,
it is going to be a better project at the end
of the day. So they are actually fixing
situations, but there is also with fixing they
may create another problem, which there's
avenues for them to get out of, but it's just
another layer of government that they would
have to deal with.
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more
want
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you explain that one
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Oy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to get --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No,
He said he doesn't
here's the problem.
We, as you know, operate on the Notice of
Disapproval.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have to clarify this
because if we write this up based upon what's
before us, which is a demo, quoting, demo of
existing single family dwelling and construct
a new single-family dwelling --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that undermines the
Trustees' requirement that that permit that
they granted be based strictly upon the notion
of reconstruction.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we're trying to
proceed in a way that is responsible to the
property owner, responsible to the Town and
the community, and responsible to the laws.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, you know there are
some real difficulties with the LWRP in that
because it's in a flood plain we're basically
talking about a zero-buildable lot. They're
building on a beach. Yes, it's preexisting
and I suspect if they just renovated what was
there and didn't move anything, just literally
could jack it up,
is going to be a
MRS. MOORE:
you know, then that likely
reconstruction or renovation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on. I'm just --
the LWRP talked about major and minor
additions, okay, under this situation. Are
you familiar with the definitions?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I just would like
some clarification with your expertise behind
it just to hear how you think we ought to go
about handling this situation. What does it
mean to build with zero, you know, 100 percent
lot coverage?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: My best
advice to you would be to look at the
Trustees' permit and see what they approved
and, in your own eyes, do you feel that that
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plan that you have in front of you mimics the
approval that the Trustees gave you?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but -- let me just
carry on for a minute, Michael. Suppose we
do, then we're dealing with a Notice of
Disapproval that does not jive with -- then
we're interpreting your Notice of Disapproval.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You either have to
reverse it or she'll have to get an amended
one based upon your reconsideration of what it
means.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's a very
good possibility, that's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I comment on that?
MEMBER SIMON: I guess --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Go ahead.
MEMBER SIMON: I think at this point to
bring this in. If I had the opportunity and
this were a kind of a hearing, I would see
myself as stepping down from this Board and
inviting the Board to invite me as an expert
witness on something having to do with
language and law, which I happen to be an
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
expert in. So as an author of language, if
I'm not allowed to talk about these things,
then I'll just stay as a Board member. I'll
continue --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As a Board member.
MEMBER SIMON: -- as a Board member. As
a Board member with, we all have expertise in
one thing or another. There's a breakdown on
the use and the meaning of terms and the law
depends upon the meaning of words in this
case, okay, and to say we'll go with what the
Trustees say, we'll go with what the
dictionary says about demolition is not the
solution. There is a problem, it's like a gap
in trying to understand, there's no easy
solution to this. There are practical things
that come up and they're very important, but
first of all, I think what is not important is
to decide what we mean or whether we use the
word demolition or not. It's dependant upon
what it is that we're describing and to try to
do the best we can to try to have that conform
to the purposes of the law.
I'm trying to be as neutral as I possibly
can on this and we start out with some things
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that I hope are uncontroversial. They're easy
cases, I'm sorry if this is going on too long,
but I just don't want to see the decision go
based on a misunderstanding.
If the rule is that you cannot build a
new house where there wasn't a house, that is
where there was a demolition, then there's not
going to be a house there. So the only way
that this can be built is to somehow convince
ourselves that this is a renovation and not a
replacement. In which case, if you want to
rewrite, I was following what you said before,
if you want to rewrite the Disapproval and say
this is not a demolition and then we can work
to see if we can render what is going on with
the point that Joe Fischetti is raising and so
forth as this is a renovation, then you've got
a chance, but beyond that I see nothing but an
exploration of what is it and the best way to
find out what is it is not to quibble over
words, but to try to describe what happens.
To say one thing as an example, if you
pull up a house and you put it on a truck and
you move it to Mattituck, it's a demolition
and the argument maybe the argument that it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
personal property that fits, that fits. We
cannot say -- we say, for purposes of the law
if you pick up the house intact and set it
down somewhere else, then you have to treat it
as though it were a demolition. So we have to
argue that this is not that simple.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Well, it
depends on what you did with the house. If
you were just moving the house there is a
section of the Code that's in reference to
relocation of a home.
MEMBER SIMON: Exactly, exactly.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That wouldn't
be a demolition.
MEMBER SIMON: Exactly, if this was a
relocation even if it's a relocation on the
same spot what I am saying, which does seem to
be clear, if you took this house and you stood
it on the street for two weeks and you moved
it back whether you put it on the same spot or
not, it would be moving it to a new location.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
void.
MEMBER SIMON:
void.
Ail COs would be
Right, all COs would be
I think Gerry and I could agree on
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this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would they?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's a
matter of opinion.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't think -- it's a
matter of analysis.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Relocation aspect,
right?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Whether you
lift it straight up or you lift it to move it
to make it a little more convenient, I don't
think that should really make a difference.
That's not the issue that I have and the
reason why we wrote that. I think it's the
removal over to here, the placement of the new
foundation, the placement of the house back
on, then the removal of a good percentage of
the house and then a rebuild.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's the
way I see it in the plans and in the
description. I don't know if anybody else
does, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the way I
see it.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, actually --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: -- to me
that's the only way you could do it and if
that's the way you're doing it whether you
call it a demolition, whether you say a
teardown, however you want to describe it,
that's what it appears to me.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I just say, Mike,
cause when I read the Notice of Disapproval
the demolition to me referred to the
foundation, it didn't refer to the house. I
mean --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: It refers to
the house, too.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well, you know,
you're saying you're going to demolish, but
what you're demolishing is the foundation,
which is what the application to the Trustees
is all about; am I correct? You know, you
want -- you need to raise this thing up, the
foundation doesn't conform any longer, so you
want to demolish that and then you're going to
rebuild that and then place the house back on
it, right?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Um-hmm.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: So for convenience sake,
I mean to my mind, it -- this is not a
trailer. To my mind, it's more convenient for
you to remove the house as long as you can
save it. It's going to be the same house,
it's going to have the same kitchen, it's
going to be in the same location, all the
stuff is going to be the same except upgraded
to today's standards, at some point in time,
and you're going to rebuild that foundation.
It'll go up higher whatever it is 2 feet, 6
feet.
So I thought you were referring to the
actual -- the demolition was actual taking the
house off the foundation.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah, what
you described though, the way you described
it, that's not what the project is projected
to be.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me carry on because
I have to get this clear, I'm the assigned
member I have to write the finding and I've
spent a lot of time reviewing this and I tend
to agree, Mike, that what troubled me was not
the removal, despite all the semantics --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to a temporary
location and putting it back to meet FEMA
regulations on pilings. My concern was when I
looked at the plans, from the architect's
point of view, there was a lot of demo going
on of the existing structure in order to
accommodate infill of additional habitable
space where there are now decks, connecting
structures. The footprint is basically the
same, but it is substantially -- let's say
there is not that much left of the existing
house by the time you're done.
Now, according to the Town's definition
of buildable land, it excludes everything that
is in the CEHA Zone.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so the house is
now classified as preexisting nonconforming in
the Coastal Erosion.
BOARD ASST.: Two houses.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two houses basically
because there's habitable space in the garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Two units.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Two units, they're not
houses, but the LWRP permits renovation and
reconstruction of minor additions up to 25
percent. So the question is if this expansion
back on the existing footprint tears down a
considerable amount of the existing house,
rebuilds and then adds some more, is that
considered a minor addition? It seems to me
that there is more construction activity going
on than what would be defined as a minor
addition within that zone.
If it is a minor addition, I think we can
handle the definition of the lot coverage
based on preexisting and changing the laws and
so on and making it FEMA compliant. On the
other hand, you know, there's a lot of
construction happening, new construction, so
speak to that, please.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's the
concern, that's the concern.
MRS. MOORE: May I -- may I just make
some points on that because you've made some
statements that I'm not sure are accurate and
I want to point us in the right direction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mike.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you, Mike.
You'll be needed, but -- the issue that
Coastal Erosion Law is what we're dealing with
on the 25 percent and the Coastal Erosion Law
allows for reconstruction, specifically it's a
term that is written into that Code, and it
also saying you're allowed to expand up to 25
percent of area coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: It's not structure, it's not
-- it's land area coverage because remember
the Coastal Erosion Law when it was adopted it
also, you have to read it line with the flood
-- the FEMA law. The FEMA law, going back to
one of the other comments you had is what can
we do with this house, what limited amount of
work can we do with this house? You have
overlaying the Coastal Erosion Law that allows
reconstruction, allows 25 percent expansion of
land area coverage. Second floor is not a
problem, it's area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a problem.
MRS. MOORE: It's area and the FEMA kicks
in as well because we can't do anything to an
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
existing structure that's not FEMA compliant
without it needing -- you can't exceed all
these different percentages, but you can't
exceed more than 50 percent of the value of
existing structure. So that's a completely
different definition that doesn't allow us to
do anything with this house -- the fact that
it's preexisting is zoning issues, but, you
can't, under FEMA, you can't make alterations
to this existing house to bring it into --
bring the electrical up, replace windows, do
the things that are necessary to make it a
safe house without bringing
standards, which is raising,
house.
it up to FEMA
elevating the
So we've got completely, you know, you've
got laws coming from all different directions,
but keep in mind when you ask Mike the
question about if it's 25 percent, it is in
the Coastal Erosion Law because Coastal
Erosion is a horizontal plain.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ground area coverage, I
understand that.
MRS. MOORE: A ground area coverage,
okay, and again reconstruction is what we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
talking about here. I think what the problem
becomes is we can make this a lot easier on
all of us if we came and bulldozed what was
there and build a new house to meet EEMA
compliance, but I think that interpretation of
the Coastal Erosion Law says is that if it's a
vacant lot you can't build on it. I'm not
sure that's accurate.
I think that the Lambara (sic) case may
be one where that issue gets decided through
the courts, but we, thank God, don't have to
deal with that because I think we all agree
that our efforts at placing this house on a
FEMA compliant foundation is because FEMA
tells us to do it and the house being lifted
and, you know, moved out of the way, again,
the intention, keep in mind the intention of
the description you have was if I pick up this
house and move it to Mattituck or my house is
not that house to stay there, it is moving
that house to another location. That's the
intention of the person who's made that
application, but if your intention is and you
do this all the time, you may have to lift the
house if it's just a cement block a normal
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
non-FEMA house, all we'd have to do is lift
it, put a new foundation in and that would be
it, but because we have pilings, that's a very
different construction scenario.
MEMBER SIMON: Would you say that this
would permit you to replace the house to make
it FEMA -- it would have to be the same house?
MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: That's the legal question.
What I'm saying is --
MRS. MOORE: Under Coastal Erosion Law --
MEMBER SIMON: Never mind under Coastal
Erosion --
MRS. MOORE: No cause that's what is
telling me to --
MEMBER SIMON: Under any law of ordinary
usage and our Code --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah? Uh-huh?
MEMBER SIMON:
you could pick up a
compliant --
-- would this model, if
house, make it FEMA
MRS. MOORE: Yes?
MEMBER SIMON: -- and you put the
house back down no problem --
UNIDENTIFIED: That is exactly what
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being done.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, right, now the
question is if that is exactly what's being
done, that sounds okay to me. Now, I just
want to be sure that what is being put back
down is the same house and not a house that is
altered so much vis a vie the Code and I think
that it's irrelevant to the --
MRS. MOORE: No, (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) bringing these
plans out, this is from hearing number one.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE:
Okay, yes.
This is what you
Yes, that is second stage
after you put the house back on the --
BOARD ASST.: Yes. Now I'm holding up
colored (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: That is prepared by Joe.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What I want to point out
which you probably can't see from a distance
is that the pink is what's staying and the
green is what's new. Now there's a whole
bunch of dotted lines here that's pink also
which are interior, probably partition walls.
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Those are being removed.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you look at pink
versus green, it does -- you know, other than
taking out a calculator and calculating to the
lineal inch, there is more coming down and new
going up. In other words, there is more new
than there is existing both on the inside and
on the building envelope.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, but which law are we
going to apply now?
MEMBER SIMON:
(inaudible).
The question is
MEMBER WEISMAN: The law that the
Building Inspector was considering in looking
at the original plans was the amount of
demolition and new construction and the
interpretation, and this is why I want to have
Mike to come back to the podium to make sure
that my understanding of your decision is
correct, that your assumption was that when
this house was put back on those pilings it
would have been substantially altered,
sufficiently so, that you had deemed it a
demolition and the construction of a new
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
house, though there are some walls in the
existing house that will remain?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh. Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, but what's the point?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Wait, wait, wait.
MEMBER SIMON: Here's the point --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to understand the
Notice of Disapproval.
MEMBER SIMON: Let me paraphrase the
point. It is that to replace the house on its
on the place on the ground is to make it
conform to (inaudible) is no problem as long
as it is the same house and not a house that
is more than 50 percent or more than 25
percent different.
MRS. MOORE: But which law are you
applying?
MEMBER SIMON: Any law, any law.
MRS. MOORE: No. No absolutely not,
that's the problem.
MEMBER SIMON:
think -- I see what
Let me explain. Pat, I
you're saying. The law
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that you're quoting, and I think quoting
incorrectly, is about the 25 percent allows
you to have a house that comes up -- which is
up to 25 percent larger in footprint, that's
what you're saying. That the 25 percent --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, and reconstruction, and
reconstruction.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, suppose the house --
okay, okay, but suppose the house that you put
back, that you're applying to put back there
was only 25 percent, but aside from that it
was a totally new house? Every board, every
bit of plaster was the same and the only thing
-- everything was new, but it was less than 25
percent larger so that would be okay? No.
This 25 percent rule only talks about the
marginal increase to the footprint of the
house, it has nothing to say about whether the
house has been, in fact, totally demolished
aside from the -- that's what we're talking
about, that's what the issue is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. I thought that the
whole reason why you were going through this
whole riGamarole was that you had steps to
take. The first step was you had to make this
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
thing comply to FEMA, correct?
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you went to the
Trustees and you got permission from them for
whatever reasons. What were the reasons for
that? Did it have anything to do with FEMA?
MRS. MOORE: No. Coastal Erosion.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so the first thing
you're going to do is you're going to comply
with FEMA. So the whole reason why you went
through this whole hocus pocus thing of moving
this house is so that you can take and move
the original house off of these pilings,
right? Build a new foundation, put the
original house back on those pilings; am I
correct?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, once you meet FEMA
then the law changes. The rules that you need
to apply no longer exist as or they didn't
apply to FEMA.
MRS. MOORE: Actually more than that.
Please look at and I learned kind of as we go
because I've actually -- I don't know of any
variance that's been issued by this Board, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
we have the FEMA law, the federal law, was
codified and adopted by the Town of Southold
in Chapter 148. 148 goes through, in great
detail, how you are to connect your building,
your house, existing house to make it continue
to be FEMA compliant. It's more than just the
foundation and Mike --
MEMBER DINIZIO: But the foundation --
MRS. MOORE: That's step one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Just step one.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What I'm saying is --
right, step one is after that different rules
apply if you didn't go on to FEMA, you
wouldn't be able to increase the house more
than 25 percent.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, absolutely.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I was
getting at before because you have hoops to
jump. If it's the demolition part of it, my
understanding was it didn't apply to putting
up the new structure, it applied to removing
the house from the original foundation,
demolishing the foundation, putting the old
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
house back on, then there's a day and then all
of a sudden you go get other building permits
to go do what you need to do, reconstruct or -
- and you're under different laws then.
MRS. MOORE: But --
MEMBER SIMON: That's right, but what it
doesn't say is when you replace the house back
whether two-thirds of the house can be
replaced as part of the house and that is, of
course, not covered by the FEMA law because
FEMA has nothing to do with demolition. It
presupposes that it's not a demolition when
you talk about how much bigger house you put
back on (inaudible). Show me where FEMA talks
about a house demolition.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
to.
MEMBER SIMON:
silent on it. It's
It doesn't.
No, it doesn't allow you
It doesn't say -- it's
simply silent because FEMA
law is not about demolition.
MRS. MOORE: No, FEMA law just tells
when you build how it must be done.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER SIMON:
you
Right.
Yeah, but it doesn't say
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
anything about the issue that is before us
today.
MRS. MOORE: But once (inaudible} -- well
no except that you have to connect (inaudible)
BOARD ASST.: We're not going to be able
to get everybody on the tape.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, we're just making
sure that we're all on the -- Where were we?
Okay, what Joe is saying -- what Jim is
saying, they agree that once it's up on the
piles and it conforms to FEMA, now FEMA --
we've satisfied FEMA. Okay, so now we're on
to the next set of rules that we might have to
apply.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: And those will be the State
Building Codes. Okay and --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: I think
actually before the Building Codes, you're
going to have to apply the Zoning Laws.
MRS. MOORE: Well, Zoning Laws.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Because
technically you could lift that house where it
is, put a foundation under it, set the house
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
back again. You didn't intensify the use,
didn't do anything on the property
(inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it.
you
And you didn't demolish
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's right.
If you want
to go through
Yeah, you're adding on now.
Okay, I'm not concerned
about the adding of areas. I agree with that,
there's no problem -- it's what you do with
the part that you don't add and if two-thirds
of that is replaced and shown on this diagram
then you've got a whole new ballgame because
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BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY:
to increase areas, you now have
the zoning process --
BOARD ASST.:
There's new areas.
MEMBER SIMON:
walk away.
MEMBER SIMON: Fine. Fine. Agreed.
MRS. MOORE: But then now you have --
That's something you could legally do, you can
raise it put it over here temporarily, put the
same exact foundation back, put it down --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, fine.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: -- you can
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
it's not the
back because
that
that we have.
MRS. MOORE:
permitted.
same house that you're putting
it's mostly a different house and
is not permitted under any of these laws
Tell me where it's not
MEMBER SIMON: It's a demolition, that's
why, it's a demolition because we've destroyed
most of the house.
MRS. MOORE: But now you have a huge
foundation that's cost you $100,000.00 to
build, you haven't demolished the house.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't understand that
that's an argument. I don't understand how
that's a legal argument.
MRS. MOORE: Why would you have gone
through --
MEMBER SIMON: I will try to be as
discreet as I can because you -- because
somebody may not have thought through what the
law means and what the law says and people
make mistakes and I'd be willing to discuss
this further. I'm not saying to bet, discuss
this further, is that maybe this is based on a
misunderstanding of the law and this is why,
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for example, once you start talking about the
25 percent increase in footprint that made me
wonder whether you really understood the
relevance of that perfectly respectable law to
this particular case. My
has nothing to do with it.
MRS. MOORE: But this
(inaudible) is it
-- the law has been
on the books,
since the 80s
have the law here.
into the books in
thereabouts.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
plain variances.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
I guess, Coastal Erosion Law
I think, the 80s or so. I don't
The flood damage FEMA went
'93. I think in the 80s
We used to do flood
Okay.
Let me ask you what --
But my point is my client
bought this house and looked at every house
that has been renovated, went through the much
lesser steps than we're arguing over now, but
the law, the Coastal Erosion Law that allowed
the footprint house, without any discussion of
the expansion up, if we were allowed to use
crappy building materials attached to the
materials that we have, if we were -- it was
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1980, we had 1980 wood with 1980 insulation
with 1980 electrical. We're allowed to
combine -- reduce the standards under current
Code with that, then we wouldn't have to
upgrade the existing. The problem is that in
order to make the house comply with the New
York State Building Code of current date with
the upgraded insulation --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: -- and all the other things,
you cannot legitimately work within the bounds
of the preexisting structural frame.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. Simple
question, how much of this house, pursuant to
this law, is actually being replaced?
MRS. MOORE: The law --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Percentage wise.
MEMBER SIMON: What percentage of the
house is because of these "bring it up to
Code" is being replaced?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it would be the same
answer as --
MEMBER SIMON:
don't want a well
MRS. MOORE:
No, I want an answer. I
Well, I don't know. I don't
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because you'd have to upgrade electrical.
really depends on whether the Building
Department will --
MEMBER SIMON:
that we have --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
footage?
According to this chart
How about the square
It
MEMBER SIMON: According to this chart we
got, it looked like it was more than half.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, well square footage is
only a 2 percent difference between the
structure we have and --
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not talking about
square footage.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that's (inaudible) I
don't know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The structural walls.
MEMBER SIMON: The structure, the walls.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How much pink and how
much green is there?
MEMBER SIMON: That's the (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Calculate the lineal --
MEMBER SIMON: Joe drew the chart.
MR. FISCHETTI: It's more than half, I
can agree with that.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: I guess -- there's no law
that prohibits it.
MEMBER SIMON: I think that's the
question here, what is the legal significance
about this? The argument that it would cost
somebody a lot of money if they lose is not a
good legal argument. Maybe there would be a
case that a person got bad legal advice if he
or she bought a house that they weren't
allowed to rebuild.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. But let's be
realistic, we're all using the same laws that
have been there, that's my point, for a very
long time and what we're doing is taking new
interpretations or new -- we're analyzing them
in such a way that prohibits the expansion of
an existing house and let me ask you what the
-- what's the policy behind that? If you're
meeting the State Building Code, if you're
meeting the flood zone, you're meeting the
setbacks to the extent that you had before,
what is the policy behind -- and East Hampton
tried that, for example, at --
MEMBER SIMON: I --
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MRS. MOORE: Let me finish. There was a
case that went to the Appellate Division in
East Hampton. It was a waterfront house and
the Zoning Board in East Hampton said we'll
let you build a one-story, but we won't let
you build a two-story. The courts threw that
out because there was really no rational basis
for having the difference between a one-story
and a two-story.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, well look I
understand your policy argument. I might even
ultimately agree with your policy argument,
the problem is this case could not be decided
on policy argument if my analysis about the
law is right. We
that's why people
because they -- a
have different analyses
sometimes wind up in court
policy argument
notwithstanding, you know that you've written
enough briefs to know that you don't throw in
a policy argument because your legal case is
quite strong enough to convince the Judges.
MRS. MOORE: But which law are you
telling me we're not complying with? That's
my question.
MEMBER SIMON: The demolition law.
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MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
code.
What demolition law?
The zoning code.
The zoning law, the zoning
MRS. MOORE: The zoning code, which says
what? Preexisting nonconforming may remain?
It's your Walz decision that says I need a
variance to go up?
MEMBER SIMON: No. No, no, no.
MRS. MOORE: What other law is it?
BOARD ASST.: Based on the Disapproval.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no. The Disapproval
is his interpretation of the demolition or not
demolition, which is again back to -- This is
really (inaudible), you know?
MEMBER SIMON: You see --
MRS. MOORE: I'm trying to understand
(inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON: Then what we could do --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Based upon the fact
that you are not using the existing house and
you are bringing it up to current standards,
which is required by the Building Department
for the sole purpose of the fact that you have
severed the house and you have taken the house
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that has two units and replacing it with a
house with one unit, okay, and made it
structurally altered. If you took that house
back and put it back together again, in its
original state, which I assume the Building
Department will not allow you to do because it
doesn't meet current New York State --
MRS. MOORE: State Building Code, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- Building Code.
Okay and that is the reason why because why?
Because those building codes of the past are
over with and that is the reason why he is --
this is not an accusatory thing, Mike, I'm
just saying this, okay -- that is the reason
why he is requiring you to do that because and
very simply because the house does not meet
those Codes and, therefore, has to be brought
up to current day standards.
MRS. MOORE: Okay and as soon as I bring
the existing house into conformity, to even
bring the existing house into conformity will
exceed 50 percent --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: -- and we'll have to do it
all again.
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MEMBER SIMON: If you have to demolish
the house to bring it into conformity, right,
there is a problem and you might even win in
court on this, but the law simply doesn't deal
with that particular -- it's not
interpretation of the Code, it's a willingness
motivated to basically disregard the Code with
regard to this demolition and there is a
problem with that.
MRS. MOORE: But let's talk about
priorities of law, okay. When we look at a --
if we took all the laws that are applicable
here, which has the highest priority as far as
policy goes?
MEMBER SIMON:
with each other.
MRS. MOORE:
They're not in competition
They are. They are truly in
competition and the flood FEMA is of utmost
priority when you look at the Code and the
standards and in particular under FEMA it says
that it affects our flood rating. We must
give a letter to the owner if he gets a
variance because you have to come back for a
variance on the standards and if you issue a
variance so that you allow the alteration of
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this house because, you know, why not just fix
the house as is? Why raise it, why spend all
that money if we can't improve it?
MEMBER SIMON: FEMA would dominate, but
through that analogy let's say your house is
in such trouble, let's say the fire code, like
FEMA. Let's say your house is in such bad
repair you're going to have to destroy the
house and replace it and that wins. That
wins.
MRS. MOORE: Okay and that --
MEMBER SIMON: And you're saying that on
top of this --
MRS. MOORE: Okay and I'm trying to say
that that policy by doing that, let's say that
that wins, that's your policy.
MEMBER SIMON: No, it's not my policy,
it's the law. That's what it is.
MRS. MOORE: No, no, but that is the --
that becomes the law as far as the utmost
priority is safety. Okay?
MEMBER SIMON: You asked me what the
priorities were and I just told you.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. I understand that,
but --
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MEMBER SIMON: It would play out in ways
that would not be very attractive and maybe
the priorities would have to be changed, but
they probably have to be changed by
legislature or certainly by a court,
because we're --
MRS. MOORE:
reconstruction.
issue, have to go to court
we could -- the (inaudible)
not by us
Which is why we're here on
We don't want to have the
on whether or not
that is not
agreeable.
MEMBER SIMON:
Gerry. Is if you
court --
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
That's why I agree with
really don't want to go to
Yes?
-- then when you lift this
thing up and make it FEMA comprehensive,
somehow manage to fix up the house and maybe
apply somewhere for a waiver of certain kinds
of reconstruction Codes so that you can
rebuild the house safely and yet not come
afoul on the demolition law, or else you're
asking for a waiver of the demolition law.
MRS. MOORE: That's why we're here.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't know whether we --
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I mean people can give you
MRS. MOORE: Who do I
from, you tell me.
application to?
MEMBER SIMON:
whether you --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
first time, however,
a waiver --
ask that relief
Who do I make that
Well that depends on
Wait, wait. This is the
that we have gotten to a
it's a reconstruction.
going to --
MRS. MOORE: But
does require a demo.
have --
MEMBER SIMON:
If, however, you are
in kind and in place
No, no, no. I mean we
Let her finish.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
just describe it
perspective.
MRS. MOORE:
Wait a minute. Let me
from a Building Code
Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay cause I'm trying to
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clarity of intent because subsequently we've
been going in circles with this about what law
trumps the other law and the bottom line is
that if the intent is to make this existing
dwelling FEMA compliant and then rebuild it in
place and in kind on pilings, it's not a demo,
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deal with this Notice of Disapproval right now
in a way that will help the applicant.
MRS. MOORE: Please help us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, all along
Soundview all in that area small houses in
flood plains have become conflated enormous
houses because of FEMA,
of the ability to make
renovations. They all
because they are so high
especially when they are
okay, and also because
large additions and
look out of scale
in the air,
two-story. Even
though, technically, they're still two-story,
they're like, you know, they look like
apartment buildings if you go up and the
setbacks from the road are also very shallow.
So they're really -- it's really transformed
the area.
Having said that, I believe a property
owner should have the right to do some
renovations. This is happening all over and I
don't want to see your client not have that
right; however, from a Building Code point of
view, you are not just replacing and bringing
up to Code an existing structure. You are
adding considerably, a considerable additional
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habitable space that used to be decks that are
now going to be enclosed, okay? So this is
not going to look anything like what was
originally there. This is what I'm trying to
understand how to describe, period. I mean
there are all these laws that come in and
there's great submissions. There's lots of
material to look at, I'm trying to sort it out
in a way that when somebody drives by they're
not going to say how did they let that happen?
At least if we let that happen, I need to be
able to explain how we let it happen, why we
let it happen.
MRS. MOORE: I understand the point
you're raising, okay. My difficulty with that
is that you are punishing this person while
every home there has been permitted to
essentially expand out and go up.
MEMBER SIMON:
kind of argument.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay so that's a different
Wait a minute. I'm not
MRS. MOORE: But the character of the
area, okay, has changed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
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MRS. MOORE: It will change and I have an
application that's been applied for and I'm
waiting for a hearing, Anello. A house brand
-- it's the exact same situation where we have
a house that is not FEMA compliant. We want
to do the minimal, but now because the house
next door has -- is not in Coastal Erosion so
all we were dealing with is FEMA issues. The
house next door has demolished and is
reconstructing what is three stories
essentially, okay. The house to the east of
them looks like the doghouse. The house to
the west of them is my client's house and it
looks like a mushroom under a big tree and my
client is dealing with wanting to renovate,
but doing it in such a way that they can keep
it as is. Well, all the laws that are, again,
there are such limitations under FEMA that
they must upgrade. Okay?
The reality is that the character of the
area requires the upgrade. The character is
dictated to by the flood zone. It will be
dictated to by the Building Code and for this
Board to limit the scope of this project to
one story and maybe the addition between it,
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really has no rational basis.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm impressed with the
enthusiasm of the argument and I understand
and I can see which way it can go. One way it
could go is one argument is other people have
done some things which we probably would be
happy with, so why don't we keep on doing the
same. Where does it stop? And that's not a
MRS. MOORE: No, it's the
the area. You're pushing that
of the area --
character of
the character
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not talking about
character of the area, I'm just saying what
I'm hearing is kind of like the argument that
says if somebody wants to build 10 feet from
the edge of the bluff and we say you can't do
that and they say well look at all the other
houses that are l0 feet from the bluff?
That's not a very impressive argument and it's
also not a good policy argument. What I'm
saying is we've got a problem here. We've got
one which is -- which gives us a pill which we
cannot really swallow if we're going to take
the law and the whole situation seriously and
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I realize there may be costs. Gerry
suggested, I don't know whether it's possible,
but if it is possible, the only way out I can
see is replace in kind the same way in kind.
Not a house with a different style, with a
different floor and so forth, all the same
things, that is so far contrary to the spirit
of rebuilding and renovation it is, in fact,
it would look to somebody who came by next
year or two years from now, wow, they build a
brand new house on that spot. I'm amazed that
they could do it, well they did it because
they decided so forth and so on. That's what
I'm not happy to sign onto.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we need to
move this along. We need to close this
hearing and that is the story. I think if we
run into any problems with dealing with the
overall decision we may have to reopen it. I
think we may -- we know where we're going at
this point, to a certain degree. The
proverbial question you've always heard from
me, and I'll duck behind the dais when I say
it, okay, what about alternate relief if we
can't do it?
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MRS.
you're telling me in kind,
acceptable, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
heavily.
MRS.
the same
complies
MOORE: I'm asking what because if
in place is
It's expanded very
MOORE: -- expansion which is within
footprint of existing structures that
within the Coastal Erosion Law and
the second story --
BOARD ASST.: Is it decking in between,
you're connecting the two buildings, right?
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
There is decking in between.
Yeah, but putting --
I'm sorry?
Yeah, but you're putting
walls right between the two units?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that is. The only new
portion is the elevated walkway that has to
give us access because of the raised structure
as Joe pointed out.
BOARD ASST.: Your condition space is how
much larger?
MRS. MOORE: The --
BOARD ASST.: The size of the deck,
right?
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MRS. MOORE:
two spaces.
BOARD ASST.:
Whatever is between those
That's what I'm saying,
it's condition space.
MRS. MOORE: It's the box that's in
between. Here, I'll tell you, it's not much.
It's very simple.
BAORD ASST.: It's not much, it's like
400 square feet or something, right?
MR. TENEDIOS: It's 25 percent. We're
complying with FEMA. We're complying with
(inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: You have to come to the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your
name.
MR. TENEDIOS: Steve Tenedios, I'm the
homeowner and this is not a bad business
decision that we're talking about. This is a
personal residence. So we're complying with
FEMA, we're complying with Building Code,
we're complying with the 25 percent rule and
your issue is do we define demolition or
reconstruction depending on which way the wind
blows because
CHAIRMAN
that's really all I'm hearing.
GOENRINGER: Alright, we're just
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looking at square footage, that's all.
MR. TENEDIOS: Sure. The square footage
is within the 25 percent.
BOARD ASST.: The Board is asking the
question, that's all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm just clarify
the square footage that you are proposing --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 25 percent of what
law?
MRS. MOORE: The Coastal Erosion Hazard
Law.
BOARD ASST.:
the numbers
vote on it.
They want to include all of
in the final decision when they
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the numbers we have
are based on the Coastal cause that's what the
Trustees -- I have -- I wanted to give you the
same project and the same dimensions that I
gave to the Trustees.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that makes sense.
MRS. MOORE: So okay, and that's why it
frustrated me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's just clarify this
in the simplest of terms. Joe's diagram the
green stuff is the infill. That's the number
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of square feet that will become habitable
space instead of deck.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's correct.
MRS. MOORE: Do you have that? It's not
on this one either.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I don't. That's
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He can submit it.
He doesn't have to give it to you this
instant.
MRS. MOORE: Right, but it --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
many square feet that
MRS. MOORE: But
is our application.
asking me to reduce
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I just want to know how
is.
let me ask you, but that
I'm not sure what you're
this application to.
I'm not asking you to
reduce anything, I'm asking for clarification
because the question was you said it's within
the 25 percent expansion of footprint. You
said you're not adding --
MRS. MOORE: Ground area coverage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Ground area coverage.
MRS. MOORE: Ground area coverage, yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you are increasing
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habitable space by enclosing what was
previously deck area, right?
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're proposing --
you're maintaining that that ground area
coverage is within the 25 percent.
MRS. MOORE: Yes and I will point out
that if you notice the green and Joe's map is
very helpful, the green is inside already
existing disturbed area. The addition is on
the landward side of the house, which is still
less than the front yard setback that is
existing. So when you look at it under the
standard that you have to consider, we are not
-- we're filling in and the only new that
we're adding, that is not fill-in, is the
front green, the roadside green on the
lefthand side, on the roadside of the property
that is over concrete.
So that is why, when we did this project,
we were very careful that -- because his
original project was very different and we
scaled it down to the bare bones because of
this 25 percent rule.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
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MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE: And again, I would emphasize
kind in place is reconstruction.
Just one question.
Yes?
The 25 percent rule,
that's a Coastal Erosion Hazard Law?
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And am I right that that
says that you can increase the footprint by no
more than 25 percent?
MRS. MOORE: It could be added --
MEMBER SIMON: The ground area.
MRS. MOORE: -- a minor --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The ground area.
MEMBER SIMON: But is that -- but that
isn't the only law that governs.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: That has nothing to do
with --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
at a time.
MRS. MOORE: No,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE:
No, but I want one law
one law --
Let me just make
sure
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
one and I'll tell you.
MEMBER SIMON: That law, I don't have any
problem with that law, but I'm just saying is
that that 25 percent doesn't even bear on the
question that I'm concerned about, which is
how much do you do with the other parts of it
and how much (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: That's a standard variance.
That's a standard variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask Joe or Steve
or Pat, or whoever to please just submit in
writing what percentage of infill and new
construction that green amounts to?
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, the square
foot and of the 25 percent allowable, what
percent is that?
MR. FISCHETTI: That I don't understand.
We have a -- Nate Corwin drawing has
compliance with the Coastal Zone Erosion.
MRS. MOORE: That's in your survey.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's pretty detailed
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: That's on the survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe it's in there
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then and I can (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: It says, proposed addition
760 square feet.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, (inaudible)
you're talking about?
BOARD ASST.: Oh, I think it's on the
survey. It says 760 square feet of proposed
additions.
MRS. MOORE:
we have made some
(inaudible).
Yes. About that schedule,
very careful calculation
MR.
answer that.
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE:
FISCHETTI: I don't know, I can't
I did it differently when I was
Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
say see survey. In
handle the LWRP issue
zone --
MRS. MOORE: But
I see. Okay. I'll just
terms of how I have to
of building in a flood
LWRP --
we talking LWRP or -- because
Erosion Zone?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Coastal Erosion.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's look at that one
I'm sorry -- are
-- or Coastal
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at a time and I'm only being a bit of a bully
verbally because I'm the one that has to deal
with writing it and they can all scream at me.
MRS. MOORE: Fine. I want it -- fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So now the issue is how
do we respond to that law because it's
calculated as though it's 100 percent lot
coverage because everything is within a flood
zone? How do I address that, from your point
of view?
MRS. MOORE: As the difference -- that's
actually not the Coastal Erosion Law, that is
the lot cover --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The LWRP?
MRS. MOORE: No. Our definition of
buildable area under the Building Code --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, the Zoning
Code.
MRS. MOORE: Okay and we have preexisting
structure with respect to the Zoning Code on
lot area. Essentially, the entire property
has been -- there's been a taking in the sense
by that definition because it's made the
entire parcel non-buildable. It has
preexisting status in the sense that all of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
our surface areas have already been -- are
already built on, but that was the difference
right there that if we go back to before the
definition of non-buildable area and we look
at the lot coverage of the lot, it was 14-
point something, I have it written down, I
don't have it memorized. We're now a
difference of lot coverage of 2.5 percent.
That 2.5 percent on the total lot coverage is
taken up by the walkways, the elevated
walkways, which replaced the cement.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MRS. MOORE: Now, with the lot coverage,
lot coverage is calculated by wood structures,
not cement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct,
that's right.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, so we have different
definitions with different percentages.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Ail I can tell you is that
we have preexisting disturbed area. We have
cement, we have wood and I mean I have
applications where it's wood walkways that is
considered structure. So rather than get into
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the minutia of this, we are in fact not
expanding. We're attempting not to expand for
environmental reasons the area that's already
been disturbed. As far as setbacks go, side
yard setbacks there's slight difference in the
side yard setback because of the elevated
walkway. Again, the impact
the same because it's now a
made of cement, now because
on the neighbor is
walkway that's
it's on piles it
has to give access around the house on wood
and it's cantilevered so that we don't even
have piles down for them. So --
Now what other law do you want me to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you ready to
wrap this up?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: I
I just want to go home.
think you have a couple of
more, including another one of my clients
after this, but this is so complicated and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why don't I get the
swimming pools in the side yard?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comments --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: I think Pat
should go back to her point in the beginning
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that she has to have this decision reflect
that it's dealing with the same as the
Trustees' decision, otherwise she's going to
have to go down another path to resolve the
issues.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, this is my
original concern, Mike, which is why I asked
you to come in to explain the demolition
aspect. So if we're attempting to do
something that permits this project to go
ahead, how do you suggest she proceed? To get
an amended Notice of Disapproval or what?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: I don't know
how she could get an amended notice. First,
she'd have to revise the plans to do less
work..
BOARD ASST.: She may have to go back to
the Trustees; is that it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
BOARD ASST.: Who would she go to?
MRS. MOORE: No, but let me -- the
definition can be changed by you. You can do
it by a reversal of his demolition definition,
since it's not a defined term, it's what we
say it is and if we say that this is not
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December 4, 2008
considered demolition because in kind in place
you've already said would have been
permissible and that's taking down and putting
back up, what we're doing here is in kind in
place --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: So that's the
two options that you have.
MEMBER SIMON: Wait, say that again.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: You reverse
my decision and say it's not a demolition.
MRS. MOORE: That's the simplest way, I
think. Yes.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Otherwise, if
you follow suit to what I wrote, you're
forcing them to go back to the Trustees.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Going back to
the Trustees will not happen unless they get
Town Board approval.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, right.
BOARD ASST.: That's procedure.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: So if we decide that you
used the language correctly --
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes and you
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
give them the variances as requested --
MEMBER SIMON: No, we can't because of
demolition.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Well, just
say you could for argument's sake. Just say,
at the end of the day you're allowed to agree
with 100 percent what I said. Okay, yes, at
the end of the day we're going to give them
all their approval, now based on that I have
to send it back to the Trustees. Going back
to the Trustees, the Trustees say, no, you
can't because of Chapter 111 and Chapter 275,
you can't do it, you need to go to the Town
Board. There's only two choices.
MEMBER SIMON: Which do you think would
be easier? To have us decide -- if we were to
decide favorably, for us to decide that it
wasn't really a demolition and it's okay or
decide that it is a demolition anyway and yes
it's okay anyway? Which do you think would be
easier?
MRS. MOORE: The reversal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can't say it's a
demolition. If we say it's -- it would have
to be a reversal.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MRS. MOORE: I don't think you want to --
MEMBER SIMON: That's why I think --
[ALL TALKING AT THE SAME TIME.]
MRS. MOORE: -- use the term demolition.
MEMBER SIMON: No, we can -- I thought
you said if we accepted your Notice of
Disapproval and said, yes, Mike says it's a
demolition.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Then we have the right to
grant it anyway.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: That would be harder for
us to stomach --
MRS. MOORE: Well if you would grant it
then it would leave me nowhere. It would
leave me with an application that (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible).
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Dead end. Dead end.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but if we turned it
down, it would be also nowhere.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The one thing we
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have not discussed it with and that is with
counsel. So we're going to leave it at that
point.
MRS. MOORE: We don't want to go to the
Town Board. The Town -- we have this
application -- I'm sorry this is a --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I didn't say Town
Board, I said counsel.
MRS. MOORE: No, but I -- there's
discussion on the Board right now about the
fact that the Town -- if the Board says --
I'll wait until everybody is listening. Okay.
BOARD ASST.: There's one decision on the
record, right, by the Building Inspector, the
Disapproval that we have?
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to make sure.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: That's
correct and if you do an amendment to that,
just to clarify that, if you wanted an
amendment done I would have to have a revised
set of plans showing a different type of
construction.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I just wanted to be
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sure they're ruling on the right
determination. Okay. Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: And this plan we gave to the
Trustees and we've described the same
description we gave you is what we gave them.
We understood the rationale, which was their
definition of demolition is you take the whole
structure down to let's say all the wood down
at once and the foundation --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- at once. You know, it's
kind of an ameba definition cause I'm not
really sure, depending on the circumstances,
but last time it was that the wood came down
even though the foundation was still there.
So (Inaudible) we came back to you a couple of
times, that's old hat, but the Trustees looked
at that and said that exceeded the scope of
our permit. This time we tried very --
because it was in the heels of the (Inaudible)
case we went right from the beginning and said
this is what we want to do. We're up front,
we know it's reconstruction. We know because
the walls can't hold up current Building Code
standards, but we can do it step by step and
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
it's on a whole new foundation. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Quickly, like
I said earlier, if you feel that this plan
mimics what the Trustees gave a permit for,
second story addition, and if it's
(inaudible), then write your decision on that,
based on that. If it's not the same, then I
don't know what to say.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know what to do.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: I don't
(inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: We'll be in court because
you know whatever you're going to do, I have
no choice.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: Everything
has to be on the same page you have to deal
with apples to apples.
apples to oranges. If
based on what I wrote,
the Trustees. I just want
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well
you to come in.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY:
what we're here to discuss.
You can't deal with
you write the decision
it's not going to match
to let you know.
that's why I wanted
And that's
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the only reason
that I asked you --
MRS. MOORE: I think he drew that --
that's why he did it the way he did so that
would bring this issue to the table and we
wouldn't have a situation where, you know, at
the end he wanted to make sure that we all
understood what the parameters were. Okay?
And he essentially is asking overturn his
bubble that says demolition is this.
BUILDING INSPECTOR VERITY: No, I never
said that.
MRS. MOORE: Well I did, that's my
interpretation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's what you're
asking.
BOARD ASST.: It's basically on the lower
level where the demolitions are, nothing to do
with the second story.
MRS. MOORE:
new.
BOARD ASST.:
the Trustees,
CHAIRMAN
But the second story is all
It has nothing to do with
right?
GOEHRINGER: Ail new.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, it all -- the same
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
plans, the elevations were given to the
Trustees.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: So they said -- alright.
MRS. MOORE: They gave me a permit. They
just said if you demolish --
BOARD ASST.: I'm just wondering where
they said no demolition is permitted --
MRS. MOORE:
demolish --
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
the steps. Okay?
No, no. They said if you
Oh, alright.
-- you have a problem.
Okay.
But we have to go by way of
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm closing the
hearing, okay?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion closing the
hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.
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HEARING %6187 and #6232 -
Ryan and Jennifer Stork
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we're ready.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay the last time I was
here we were proposing a house in the same
location. As far as the bulkhead is
concerned, there's the existing house and the
reason we're doing that was that the owners
were really interested in maintaining the
accessory structure for which they have a CO,
specifying two sleeping areas and a bath.
After hearing your concerns at the last
hearing, the owners decided that what they
would like to do is propose moving the house
back to the required 75-foot setback and, in
effect, rebuilding, without using that
complicated word demolish, the accessory
structure, which we refer to as the
garage/quest home.
So I've mentioned that the proposed
house, although significantly different in
style from the existing house, is similar in
style and size to the two houses, which now
exist on adjoining properties. The main house
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
is two stories in height and this is not
unusual for the many expanded or rebuilt house
on Peconic Bay Boulevard throughout its
length. We propose to construct a new
garage/guest house in a new, more landward
location to accommodate the location of the
main house that the Code requires set back 75
feet from behind the bulkhead.
Any benefit sought to be permitted to
build the new main house with side yard
setbacks, which are not significantly
different from those of the existing structure
is required to accommodate the proposed
structure on this lot, which is only 42 feet
wide. The current zoning regulations require
the total side yard setbacks to be at least 35
feet in this R-40 District, leaving 7 feet for
the house. The house we are proposing is only
28 feet wide, which is three-and-a-half feet
narrower than the new structure we originally
proposed. Additional footprint area, as
compared to the existing dwelling, is all
gained on the landward side of the building.
The existence of the detached accessory
garage/guest house was the feature that led us
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
to apply for the plan we proposed at the last
meeting in that unchanged in its present
location, the garage/guest house limited the
landward relocation of the main house further
away from the bulkhead. The present proposal,
which includes the demolition of the
garage/guest house and the building of a new
structure of the same footprint allows the
citing of the main house at the code-required
75-foot setback behind the bulkhead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just ask you
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's going to be
very similar to that? We don't have any plans
on that garage.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. You have as of
today, the -- yes, the answer to the question
is from the inside it would be very similar.
From the outside it will be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: And you have the
elevation drawings for the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. For the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
house, yes.
BOARD ASST.: There's no kitchen or
anything in the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's only
sleeping quarters?
MR. FITZGERALD: Let me get to that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: He's got it covered.
So it's proposed to be demolished and
rebuilt with the same configuration, the guest
house/garage?
MR. FITZGERALD: The same footprint and
the same configuration. The only significant
change would be to bring the stairway to Code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, you didn't see it.
What an ugly stairway it was.
The retention of the approved guest house
use of the accessory structure is very
important to the owners and, therefore, it's
very important part of the current proposal.
It would seem that the relocation of the
structure to allow compliance with the
bulkhead setback requirements to the main
house is advantageous to all the concerned
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parties, the owners, the Town and the
neighborhood, and that's a rare combination.
We think we understand the likely reasons that
the Code, or the entities charged with its
application, severely limit "grandfathering"
as the founding or writing fathers became
aware that members of the citizenry, who were
so inclined, were becoming more skilled at
finding loopholes. In the present case, the
only relief sought, in addition to the
relocation of the structure, is the allowance
of a full bath, so that the overnighters can
shower or bathe in the morning.
Although the Building Inspector states in
the 9/19/08 Notice of Disapproval that "The
accessory garage/guest house constitutes a
second dwelling unit", we contend that since
in two specific regards the garage/guest house
does not meet the Code definition of a
dwelling unit, that portion of the Notice of
Disapproval is invalid, and we ask the Board
to confirm this in their findings for
posterity. This would be the Fitzgerald
Decision. The Code definition states that a
dwelling unit contains a minimum of 850 square
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
feet of living area; the garage/guest house in
it's present and its proposed location has
only 743 square feet of living area. In
addition, the Code definition requires that a
dwelling unit must contain "complete
housekeeping facilities". The garage/guest
house has no kitchen, a seemingly essential
component of complete housekeeping facilities.
Now that we propose the relocation of the
garage/guest house in the front yard, although
to a site further from the east property line,
its side yard setbacks become an issue. The
comments which have been made here concerning
those setbacks for the main house now apply as
well to the accessory structure.
It should be considered that the unusual
shape shared by many of the properties in this
neighborhood and, to a lesser extent, with
many throughout the town, is such that the
portion of the property within which the
dwelling is located has the width
characteristics of a much smaller lot, and
thus the side yard setbacks imposed for both
structures are more suitable for a lot of
ordinary proportions. In this case, it could
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be suggested that reasonable side yards could
be 10 feet minimum and 25 feet total, which is
the next step down in the non-conforming lot
table of the Code. We are, of course,
proposing less than that, but the relief
sought, based upon the predominant lot
configurations, is not unreasonable.
The distance between the proposed house
and the house to the west, Pat Romanelli's, is
more than 29 feet, which is one foot less than
it would be if a minimum permissible Code
setback, 15 feet, existed on each property,
and presumably separation between dwellings is
what side yard setbacks are all about. With
regard to the structures to the east, it is
apparent that the owner of that property and
the Building Department administration, at the
time of their construction, were not concerned
with the separation between structures on
adjacent properties since three separate
structures on that property exist with side
yard setbacks at or close to zero feet.
The neighborhood has been subdivided in
such a way that almost no lots meet the 150-
foot minimum width requirement of the Bulk
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Schedule. This means that for all practical
purposes, all the lots in the neighborhood are
nonconforming, but the neighborhood seems to
have gotten along very well even with this
shared burden. The point being that it seems
impractical to apply standards developed for
ordinary or usual lots, those that are more
square and less long and narrow to lots
obviously laid out to maximize the number of
waterfront sites. It perhaps should have been
a separate district, and we should not be
trying to squeeze it back into the R-40
numbers in the Bulk Schedule.
Regarding environmental impact, it would
seem that the project, as we propose it, would
pose significantly less environmental burden
than the existing configuration of the
property. The house and the garage/guest
house are further landward, the septic system
is much further landward and it will meet
current standards of design and construction
and the construction of the new house and the
garage/guest house will meet modern standards
of greenness.
When you approve this project, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
footprint of the proposed house will improve
upon the existing side yard setbacks. The
setback from the bulkhead will be in
compliance with the Town Code. The use of the
property for a single-family residence with an
accessory garage/guest house will be
unchanged. Under similar circumstances many
houses in the larger neighborhood have been
renovated and expanded by adding a second
story, whether or not the original dwelling
was completely demolished or built upon, and
so the waterfrontness and character of the
neighborhood will be unchanged by your
approval of the variance we seek. It's a
situation in which everybody wins. The Town
gets significant additional taxes, which are
estimated at more than $11,000.00 every year
from now on. The ZBA gets a house on Peconic
Bay Boulevard that's 75 feet from the
bulkhead, the neighborhood gets a nice upgrade
on the property, and the owners get their new
house and garage/guest house.
Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: Very clever and very
eloquent. Can I ask a few questions?
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How -- additional taxes? How are the
taxes, they're paying taxes now already, this
is how much the taxes are going to go up?
MR. FITZGERALD: The tax -- yeah,
additional $11,000.00.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: They're going from 5-
something to $17,000.00.
MEMBER SIMON: Oh they are? Okay. So I
have one --
MR. FITZGERALD: This is according to
(inaudible) of the Assessor's --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. I actually have one
question. I think your argument about
dwelling units is very clever.
MR. FITZGERALD: About what?
MEMBER SIMON: Dwelling units. Whether
that counts and a --
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: I just wondered whether
that has -- if you've thought about what
implications that would have for people
building guest houses willy-nilly on their
lots because previously, as you know, they
have been -- the applicants have not had the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
advantage of your clever argument and have
tended to be frozen out of this option because
they haven't thought of your argument.
MR. FITZGERALD: My answer to that would
be what's the problem with them?
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: The problem now, as far
as we're concerned -- what we're proposing is
a property which contains, again, still a
large main house and an accessory structure,
which --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD: Without getting into a
thing, the problem is moving the accessory
structure.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. What I'm
saying is the Town -- I think it's an
attractive proposal, what I'm thinking of in
the Town of Southold, as you know, there are a
lot of similar units, which are technically
illegal now.
MR. FITZGERALD: I have this very day
discussed that matter with the new Code
Enforcement Officer and I am appealing that to
be addressed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I mean I don't think
it would be a bad idea necessarily to change
it, it would just be in the vanguard.
MR. FITZGERALD: The problem here, and I
discussed this with the gentleman that wrote
the Disapproval, is that technically this is
not a dwelling unit so we shouldn't even be
talking about it any more than we should be
talking about a wood shed or a detached
garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a guest cottage,
right? It's a guest unit.
MEMBER SIMON: But the thing is this
Board may have been making mistakes for years
in disapproving guest
MEMBER WEISMAN:
look at what's before
BOARD ASST.:
you've got to get
MEMBER SIMON:
cottages.
Well, right now let's
US --
The definition of the Code,
back to the Code.
Well, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to let Jim continue,
MR. FITZGERALD:
(inaudible) this way is that the Building
Department has no other way of inaudible)
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Alright, you want
please?
The reason its
it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
So they said, well, it doesn't meet the
definition of a dwelling unit, but I don't
know I don't like it, I'm going to put
something down here and this is what they put
down.
Now as recently as well a long time ago I
spoke to the Boss Inspector and I had spoken
to Dave Morales earlier today and I said I'm
going to write you a definition for a guest
house. I'll bring it in and we'll sit down
and look at it and maybe we can get it into
the Code. So that we --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I think that's an
interesting idea, but if I'm right in thinking
that the language that you used here is the
language that is used regarding a house that
is the only house on a property with the way
it's specified, the minimum requirement for
the principle dwelling and I didn't know that
that has ever had been used with regard,
before you, for a secondary -- for accessory
dwellings.
MR. FITZGERALD:
It is not defined.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(Inaudible) is in limbo.
Well, wait a minute.
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The Building Inspector has not defined -- I
believe in the previous hearing, Jim, you said
that there's a CO for this building.
MR. FITZGERALD: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now here's my
question. You're not proposing just simple
lifting it and moving it.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
would be renovated,
That's correct.
Okay, in which case it
without changing the
footprint and the C of O would be maintained.
When you demolish it, my question is does that
-- well it's coming down, right?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's not going
to travel. It's just --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The C of O does not go
with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The CO does not --
MR. FITZGERALD: I don't understand that
and that's why we're here.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whoa, whoa.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's going to
happen, specifically, if we are so inclined,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
okay, is the decision is going to be written
to actually convert the garage structure to
the same exact situation that occurred up to
present standards.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How does he get his CO?
MEMBER SIMON: There's due legal
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By the nature of
our decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So he gets a permit --
MEMBER SIMON: Basically we'll be
legislating it and maybe we should be
legislating it, but as far as I see that's a
legislative decision, which may have all sorts
of things going for it, because we don't have
a right to create a new structure that we
decide is now a legal unit wherein previously
the Board has (inaudible) about as though they
were illegal.
MR. FITZGERALD: It's an accessory
structure, which is defined and approved in
the Code. It is not a dwelling unit.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
space.
MEMBER SIMON:
No, but it has habitable
Yes, it's habitable space.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FITZGERALD:
unit.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
dwelling unit.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It's heated.
It's not a dwelling
We're not saying it's a
But --
Wait, wait.
First of
all, yeah, first of all, we don't have any
plans for it, okay, we just have a verbal
description of what's going to happen and we
have a footprint on a survey. Alright?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's new construction,
okay, there are two other options. One is to
take the existing and move it back, lift it
and move it back and renovate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can't.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not structurally sound
enough to do it. The other is to attach it by
some means, a breezeway or whatever, and
renovate it right where it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The law doesn't
allow that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why not?
[Ail speaking at once.]
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I mean -- and the
third is to build anew and then -- we don't
have the jurisdiction to give you another
Certificate of Occupancy.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. So I don't -- well,
we don't give Certificates of Occupancy.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No. The Building --
MEMBER SIMON: Let me give you some
background. The Stakeholders, New Suffolk
Stakeholders, which I'm on, considered
recommending such a thing for its -- in this
project and we were told by all kinds of
sources that we would have to change the Town
Code to get this thing passed and so forth.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You would.
MEMBER SIMON: Some people thought that
it was a good idea and not a good idea, but at
the time the general understanding was you
can't do that and the language of dwelling
unit if -- I don't believe that fits into the
description of an accessory structure. It
doesn't say must not be a dwelling unit or
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: The bottom line is the
laws do not exist right now --
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MEMBER SIMON: To allow us to do it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to allow us to say go
ahead and build a guest -- a new guest house.
say.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I (inaudible).
That's all I'm trying to
MEMBER SIMON:
imaginative and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right?
MR. FITZGERALD: [not at
MEMBER DINIZIO: In this
we can.
MEMBER SIMON:
is that?
That's why I say it's
Am I wrong?
the microphone.]
particular case
It is actually a -- what
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is -- you're
missing the point here. They have agreed,
this is not just the building or transferring
the rights from one building to another.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is the actual
decision to move a house to a full conforming
location --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- completely
change the side yards of that house.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, which is great.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which is completely
great and taking the building that they would
move if they could move, but the darn thing is
attached to a cement slab so you can't pick it
up. The minute you pick it up, it's going to
fall apart.
MEMBER SIMON: So what's the principle?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The principle is
that we are trading conforming setback from
the water, 75 feet, conforming -- this is my
opinion -- conforming, more conforming side
yards. Okay?
MEMBER SIMON: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the ability to
take a structure, which cannot be moved, and
allowing him to --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- if he gives us
plans, to consider the possibility of moving
it in a more conforming location at a zero lot
line or one foot or one inch or something,
okay, to a more conforming location.
MEMBER SIMON: I agree completely, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
the thing is what you call a principle is to
say that we now have a principle that can be
repeated and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Absolutely not.
MEMBER SIMON: -- we can make -- we can
make a tradeoff. What's the principle? You
just described the rationalization --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, Michael, you're
missing the point?
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The point in
question is that we have the power to do that
in a situation like this. How often is a
variable like this going to come along?
MEMBER SIMON: It's unique.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's unique. It's
extremely unique.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
wait. You're talking
in garages, how often
along and you're saying
MEMBER SIMON: Ail
No, no. Wait, wait,
about sleeping quarters
is that going to come
not many?
the time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jimmy, (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: I can think of 10 on my
own street that would love to have that.
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MEMBER SIMON:
tradeoff.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the tradeoff.
Gerry's talking about the
I'm talking about
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't think that we
can grant any kind of dispensation or variance
on a structure that has a CO on a
nonconforming structure that has a CO with a
preexisting use in it, which is the bed and
the curtains or whatever it is in there, no
kitchen naturally. I don't think you could
transfer that to another non -- put it into
even a conforming building using a
nonconforming use. We cannot do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you can.
MR. FITZGERALD: We're not --
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a nonconforming use
that you're asking for.
MR. FITZGERALD: According to the Code,
what we want to do is build a building which
is not defined as a dwelling.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Though it has
sleeping quarters.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Your definition of --
you know, the dwell, you know, the actual
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
submission that you have to come before this
Board and not get a violation is the CO that
you have that says that it has a guest
quarters in it. The moment that you do
anything to that building, i.e. tear it down,
you no longer have that CO.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Understood.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We don't have the power
to, in my opinion, to say you may have this
nonconforming use somewhere else on your piece
of property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I completely agree with
Jim. That's what I'm trying to really --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't disagree
with Jim --
MEMBER SIMON: What you're saying is it's
alright we don't need a CO because we have
this ingenious argument --
MR. FITZGERALD:
mentioned.
MEMBER SIMON:
The CO, I shouldn't
You' re making new law.
That's right.
FITZGERALD: I mentioned it
it's got nothing to do with
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. in
passing, this
project.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay, okay. So exactly,
so right if there were no CO, you would be
able to make arguments and the one you made of
the uniqueness as Gerry notes here for saying
-- for a whole lot of reasons, is we can build
an accessory building with sleeping quarters
in it, willy-nilly, because the Code doesn't
forbid it --
MR. FITZGERALD: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and I'm not sure about
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Code does
forbid it.
MEMBER SIMON: Your textual argument
doesn't satisfy me because what you referred
to which is a dwelling unit, we're talking
about principle dwelling units and that's the
context of that language and, yes, it doesn't
qualify as a principle because 850 square feet
is not regarding accessory buildings.
Accessory buildings can be any size.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim, we have the
ability to grant you one unit, one room. We
have the ability to grant you the bathroom,
which we do all the time in accessory
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structures, okay, we have the ability to grant
you the two, if we were so inclined, and we
have the ability to grant you nothing. Okay?
That's not a -- this is not a pompous
statement, I'm just making the statement.
MEMBER SIMON: There's no principle
necessary.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. I'm just
telling you that that's what we think we have
the power to do. Now why are people in this
audience all thinking about this? Okay,
because everybody is going to run out and try
and legalize, okay, a sleeping quarters in an
accessory structure,
years we don't grant.
basically it.
MR. FITZGERALD:
which for the last 28
Okay and that's
Why?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why? Because --
MEMBER SIMON: Because the Code hasn't
been changed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because the Code
hasn't been changed and because every single
solitary --
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would add to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
every school
BOARD ASST.:
reason, the Code
permitted use.
MR. FITZGERALD:
district in each town.
There's also another
does not list it as a
Well --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. FITZGERALD: And we --
MEMBER SIMON: There are also issues
about fire protection.
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: There are also issues
about fire protection.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: Because if there's a fire
how is the Fire Department going to know that
somebody is sleeping there, if it's not a
legally registered sleeping habitable space?
MR. FITZGERALD:
sleeping place.
MEMBER SIMON:
you're writing law.
MR. FITZGERALD:
way the system works
You register it as a
Okay, as they say, now
My understanding of the
is the Building
Department looks at this stuff and said, no,
you can't do it looking at the Code and when
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they have a little problem they say, no you
can't do it and I guess this is pretty close
to the reason why. Okay, then we come here.
It is my understanding that it is not
your job to assist the Building Department in
maintaining the validity of the Code. The
fact that we're not satisfied with what the
Building Department said, cause they had said
that what we're doing is asking you for the X-
Code. Give us permission to do something else
and what it boils down to in this, to me, is
what's wrong with this? What's bad about this
project, if you don't -- if you answer that
question without referring to the Code?
MEMBER SIMON: Okay,
go back to State Law. As
State Law that determines
Zoning Boards of Appeals,
I understand. I can
I understand the
the existence of
is that we have a
fairly limited jurisdiction and what we may
not do is essentially write brand new Code by
our decisions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: And that's what you're
asking us to do.
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MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I'm -- okay
(inaudible) --
BOARD ASST.: To rewrite the use
variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What you've done is
something excellent in that, after discussion
at previous hearing, you've shortened the
width of the house, created more conforming
side yards and created an existing -- a
conforming setback from the bulkhead. It's
still a lovely little house. It's going to be
a great thing, but in so doing what you've
done is put yourself in a position where you
absolutely had to do something with the
existing accessory structure, okay, and you
have every right to rebuild an accessory
structure -- to build an accessory structure.
The problem is that to build it brand-new you
no longer have the legal right to have
sleeping quarters in it and we don't have
jurisdiction, I don't think, from the bench
here to interpret a Code that doesn't exist.
I mean we'd be bombarded with requests by
people to do this.
MEMBER SIMON: Another way of putting
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
this is if a neighbor who got turned down for
something like this sued us for this, we'd
lose big time in the courts.
MR. FITZGERALD: Every time I come before
the Board everybody says every project is
different, every one is different.
MEMBER OLIVA: Sure. You're right.
MR. FITZGERALD: But until it doesn't
work and suddenly you're
setting precedent.
MEMBER SIMON: Well,
concerned about
I think that's
overly simple to say, you know, it isn't up to
us to decide what's a precedent or not. When
we do something and a lawyer for another case
comes in and says look what the Board did
here, and we say oh no, no, no, we didn't mean
that to be used as a precedent each case is
different. That's nonsense. No lawyer would
accept that argument.
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to your application,
I understand that, but -
No court would either.
Let's take this specific
forget about anything
else.
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MR. FITZGERALD: Yes?
MEMBER WEISMAN: The bottom line is, as
you know very well, when you demolish that
structure it ceases to exist, it's new
construction. It then has to comply with the
accessory structure Code, which makes no
mention of sleeping quarters as a permitted
use. So we're kind of stuck. We can grant
you an accessory structure, but we can't grant
you the right to have sleeping quarters in it.
Now I know your clients, in part, were very
interested in this property because of that
existing use. They've made some choices.
The choice that we now see that they've
made was to improve the setbacks for the house
all the way around. It's a very narrow little
lot, it still doesn't have conforming side
yards, but they're better. You've reduced the
number of variances that we need. Ail very
good things, that's easy for us to deal with,
but I'm hard pressed really to know what to do
in this situation relative to this accessory
structure. You can rebuild it exactly with
the same footprint, but that will no longer
have Certificate of Occupancy for sleeping
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
quarters. So, you know, I think that's really
the bottom line here, you know, that's why --
MEMBER SIMON: The thing is you won't get
it, even is we allow it and you build it, you
won't get the C of O if the Building
Department is doing its job.
MR. FITZGERALD: If you say in your
findings this is what we're approving, they'll
give us the C of O.
MEMBER SIMON: No, I don't know. I mean
MR. FITZGERALD: Well --
MEMBER SIMON: -- maybe you're right.
Maybe you're right.
MR. FITZGERALD: But what you're saying -
- what you said before is if we take the same
plan that you have before you and we connect
these two with a breezeway, it's okay.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what the Code says,
it's in the Code.
to be
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Because -- because --
At 10 feet or 5 feet or
MR. FITZGERALD: But you're not supposed
defending the Codes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: We are.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not -- wait a minute.
Our job is not to defend the Code, it's
certainly not to amend it. Our job is to make
recommendations as much as possible in
accordance with the Code and that happens to
be one of the things that the Code allows.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, (inaudible}.
(Inaudible) I'm going to stop now before I --
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FITZGERALD:
off that you --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'm not ticked off.
MEMBER SIMON:
I understand.
-- get anybody so ticked
No, nobody's ticked off.
No, I think this is a
vigorous discussion.
BOARD ASST.: Actually, you did a great
job.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, right. Wait 'til
we get to vote on this one.
If it is the general feeling of the Board
that we're not going to get this as proposed,
then I would ask you to table it cause I don't
-- I'm not comfortable with agreeing to any of
the solutions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: Well, we could grant it
with respect to the house and not with respect
to accessory building for example.
BOARD ASST.: So then you enter that
amendment for --
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) for
something that's fraught with danger.
MEMBER SIMON: Well maybe for you, but we
do that all the time.
BOARD ASST.: It's on the record.
MEMBER SIMON: We accept with respect --
we grant with respect to this and deny with
respect to that. That's pretty routine.
BOARD ASST.: They do a split.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This means the house is
approved, but the accessory structure is not.
MR. FITZGERALD: I (Inaudible) they're
not going to approve that and they said, oh
okay, let's put the house back where it was
originally when we were first here because
that didn't impress anybody and we'll fix up
the accessory building where it is.
BOARD ASST.: So it's a gamble. Do you
want to adjourn it or do you want the Board to
make a decision?
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MR. FITZGERALD: I didn't --
BOARD ASST.: Do you want to adjourn it
or do you want the Board to make a decision?
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can adjourn it.
MR. FITZGERALD: It shouldn't be that
way. It shouldn't --
BOARD ASST.: I know, but --
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I want to --
BOARD ASST.: -- that's procedure.
MR. FITZGERALD: -- adjourn it.
BOARD ASST.: You want to adjourn it.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then go talk to your
clients, they don't have to put it back to
where it was. They can, in fact, leave the
accessory structure where it is and renovate
it and they can move -- propose to move the
house a little closer to the bulkhead, but not
as close as it was. I mean, I know you want
some distance between those two structures,
but it's going to have to be a minimal
distance now for them to keep both because it
can't be that close to the bulkhead. So it's
a tweaking exercise, you know, and I think the
best thing is for you to talk to your clients.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: That's it. You need more
time. You need more time.
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) I would ask
that the Board look into the concept of --
that I'm proposing and that is because, which
is a reverse of what you're saying, the Code
does not say you can't do this.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER SIMON:
Code and --
MR. FITZGERALD:
I will look at the Code.
Pardon?
I promise I will study the
The Code did not say you
can't do this and, to me, that means you can
do it because the Code is --
MEMBER OLIVA: Silent.
MEMBER SIMON: I -- I --
MR. FITZGERALD: Very carefully in most
cases it --
MEMBER SIMON: I --
MR. FITZGERALD: -- lists things you
can't do.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't think that's the
way I read the whole Code.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It lists things you can
do.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
you can do.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
Criminal Code, which
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I'm sorry?
Our Code lists things
it's not like the
Right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- specifically identifies
the things you cannot do.
MR. FITZGERALD: I understand.
MEMBER SIMON: With the Town Code, it's
pretty much the other way around. These are
things you can do.
BOARD ASST.: And there are cases on it.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. I'm just --
(inaudible) ask the Board to see if there's
not some way we can do this project, which is
advantageous to everybody and the only thing
wrong with it is that you have a problem with
the Code. There's no -- it's good
environmentally, it's good financially, it's
good for all those things that I said. It's
good for everybody, except
wrote this Code.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
tabling it now?
for the people that
Okay, so we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I think you
to go to the Town Board with that one.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, please.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
resolution to --
ought
I offer a
MEMBER WEISMAN:
date?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, but there was one
other thing that he forgot to ask for.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What?
BOARD ASST.: Plans.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of
course.
BOARD ASST.: Diagrams.
MR. FITZGERALD: You have them with the
previous incarnation.
BOARD ASST.: For the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: For the new -- for the
rebuilt accessory structure?
MR. FITZGERALD:
Adjourn to a particular
Yeah. (inaudible).
He's going to build a new
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stairway.
MR. FITZGERALD:
I will get them to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON:
Okay, good. We'll
If you don't have them,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
then -- we'll adjourn it --
BOARD ASST.: Without a date.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- without a date
pending the receipt of plans for the garage
(inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: If you think --
BOARD ASST.: If necessary, he's --
MR. FITZGERALD: The next date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want a date?
MR. FITZGERALD: The next date?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The best date we
can give you is February, February 19.
BOARD ASST.: Maybe February --
MR. FITZGERALD: If that's the next date.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. February 19.
BOARD ASST.: Is that enough time, by
then?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, February 19th at 2:15.
MR. FITZGERALD: I'll probably be ready
tomorrow, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: February 19th, do
you want to give me a time?
BOARD ASST.: 2:15.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2:15.
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BOARD ASST.: Yeah, there's no more room
on that day, by the way, that's the last one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, Feb.
Alright, I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
MR. ROMANELLI: Pat Romanetli, next door
neighbor. Am I interpreting your, correct me
on the accessory building, that you will not
grant it, but if he applies this for a garage
only would that be acceptable?
BOARD ASST.: This is not a hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This -- first of
all we could reopen the hearing and take Mr.
Romanelli's testimony, if the Board was so
inclined.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, of course.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, because I
unfortunately failed to ask everybody if they
would like to speak. Okay, so I will offer a
resolution to reopen the hearing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Romanelli.
MR. ROMANELLI: Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't
realize it was closed.
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My question is the accessory building,
you will not grant it as an accessory
building, but you'll grant it as a garage
only?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
variance for that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. ROMANELLI: Okay,
question.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to speak?
MR. ROMANELLI: I'll
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
back.
Oh sure.
we don't even need a
that answered my
Anybody else like
(inaudible).
Neighbor in the
live on the other side.
I'm sorry, I didn't hear
MR. ARSKIN: Yeah, I have a question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name.
MR. ARSKIN: I'm Carl Arskin and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes,
you're the neighbor in the back,
side.
MR. ARSKIN: I
MEMBER SIMON:
your name.
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on the other
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MR. ARSKIN:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the neighbor on the east
MR. ARSKIN: On the
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
Carl Arskin.
This gentleman is
side.
east side.
MR. ARSKIN: If I was to understand when
you were talking with Jim there, if they take
that existing garage with the bedrooms and
pick it up and move it, you said that would
fall apart, but let's just say you pick it up
and move it, can that be done?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. ARSKIN: Oh, it can't be done.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It would lose its CO the
moment that you do anything to it.
MR. FITZGERALD: Physically? I don't
know. I bet you, if they were willing to
spend a lot of money,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
lose the CO.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
it could be done.
No, no, but you would
You'd have to apply for a
You'll need another CO.
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MR. ARSKIN: You lose the CO regardless
if there was no change in the -- what about
moving it from one place to another?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you have to put a
foundation, the whole nine yards. You're
going to lose that CO that you have.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think so.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think the Building
Department would review this.
BOARD ASST.: Well that's why he's here.
He amended his application cause he got denied
by the Building Inspector for that.
MR. FITZGERALD: We're kicking around all
these ideas when -- well --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Town Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me for not
calling on you before.
Alright, motion to adjourn without,
excuse me, with the date of February 19th at
2:15 and pending the receipt of plans for that
garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
HEARING #6219 - Gama Properties
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-49 and 280-50C, based on the Building
Inspector's amended September 4, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning proposed additions
and alterations in converting an existing gas
station and convenience store uses to a
convenience store (retail store). The reasons
stated for disapproving the building permit
application are that the new construction:
(1) will have a single side yard at less than
the code require minimum of 25 feet; (2) will
have a rear yard at less than 35 feet; (3)
will be greater than 60 linear feet of
frontage on one street. Location of Property:
9945 Main Road (NYS Route 25) and Factory
Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 1000-142-1-27. Zone
District: B-General Business."
Ms. Moore?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Didn't we see you
already today?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I'll try to be more
concise.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Kemper who
his plans,
file.
I have with me Vivian Kamath who is
builder, correct, and owner's agent and Eugene
is the project engineer. You have
Kerper Engineering plans in your
We, as you pointed out, we are here on
the three variances. The one simple one is
the setback from the rear property line. We
are continuing the line of the existing
structure. As you know, probably all of you
have been there many times, but the existing
structure is presently a gas station with a
convenience store and a -- well, a gas station
with a repair garage. Ail of those approvals,
you have the history in your file and it has
the Special Exception for the gas station and
accessory convenience store and ultimately got
a variance and approval for a canopy. The
project will be -- the uses will be reduced
down to a single tenant occupancy of a 7-11
convenience store, retail store, which is a
permitted use in the Zoning Code.
The property is surrounded by the
Mattituck Shopping Center that is a very large
shopping center surrounded by black top. This
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property has buffering in the rear of the
property, which is intended to remain. The
expansion is primarily needed because there is
a gas station that sits on a slab, there is no
storage, and the retail use needs storage for
-- 7-11 needs some storage capacity as well as
the retail space that's provided for. So 7-11
specifically requested to have this additional
space on the east side of the building. The
expansion is proposed 25-foot expansion, same
depth as the building existing, which is 30,
with a 25-foot expansion towards the east
property line, which we retain a 24.2 setback.
The Code requires 25 feet. It is a diminimus
variance request probably the width of a wall.
So it is a very minor side yard variance. We
would prefer to, since we've already applied
for it, to be granted that, since the
compliance is 25 feet.
The Board is certainly aware from lots of
variances on the 60-foot rule, the purpose of
the legislation as it was adopted was
primarily to address shopping center issues
before the zone changes were done up on the
North Road. That was an attempt to keep
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structures from becoming shopping centers and
long linear footage. In this instance,
visually, it will have very little impact. It
is surrounded by a very large shopping center.
We are eliminating a canopy so there will be a
tremendous -- by grant of this variance and
conversion to a single use, the removal of the
canopy will be a significant visual
improvement to the corner property. So we
think that, that in and of itself, is
balancing the interest. The 60 feet of
building or 65 feet of building will not be
measurably different than a 60-foot building,
visually.
There is also landscaping that is
proposed. There is -- this is a significant
improvement to the property. One of the
comments, going briefly and quickly through,
I'd be happy to go over this much slower, but
one of the comments that I saw from the
Transportation Commission, which I think
requires comment. The New York State DOT when
they made the improvements to the state road
did create a little bit of a hazard there on
the corner; however, at the time that the
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original -- this was the subject of a previous
application for a car wash. At the time,
there would have been three uses and,
financially, the property owner was willing to
fund the cutback of that corner. Now, since
this property is going to be a significant
reduction in income on the property, the owner
is willing and has discussed this with
Planning Board and we actually have to deal
with -- it's really a New York State DOT issue
-- the issue of granting an easement at no
cost to the DOT, but the improvements
themselves should be funded by the DOT. The
property owner is not willing fund the
relocation of this curb.
The Planning Board, when this issue came
up because it was one of these issues we first
discussed during the Planning Board work
session, recognized the fairness of that and
are not -- we are working with the DOT and
there is a consensus that we're going -- that
my client will cooperate with the DOT, if the
DOT needs easements, in order to eventually
correct that curb and the radiuses of that
curb, we're going to cooperate, but it is not
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something I caution the Board that don't make
it as a condition of the approval that we are
going to do this because we are not going to
fund it. We are willing to work with the DOT.
This is a condition that we are working
through the site plan process, but it is an
inappropriate condition for the variances that
we've requested.
That curb has -- this project and this
property has little if any impact of that
corner. That corner is primarily the result,
again, if the DOT's work on their road and the
fact that you have other properties that have
not gone through the site plan process and are
tight, that are the ice cream shop in
particular that backs into
would really want to clear
it right on the table that,
that corner. So I
that issue and put
again, we're --
we've agreed to cooperate, but it is not going
to be something where my client will fund that
significant expense.
I'm here to answer any questions. I have
the engineer. We can certainly bring you up.
(Inaudible) I have. The DOT has the
application. The Planning Board has the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
application and we're proceeding with the
review.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Properties?
MRS. MOORE: GAMA
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
contract (inaudible)?
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
property.
Who is GAMA
is the property owner.
Okay and is he a
He owns the
They were under
They were under contract with that
actually, then they transferred --
notified us later.
MRS. MOORE: Oh. Okay, then they closed
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one,
they
MRS. MOORE:
a half.
BOARD ASST.:
I think that was a year and
BOARD ASST.: He's a fairly new owner,
right?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's been going
through the process for quite some time cause
remember this had a car wash application in --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that the same
owner?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, same owner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Same owner.
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during the interim.
BOARD ASST.: Yeah. We had asked you for
the deed on that. There was a new deed. We
had it under a different name, (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, they were selling, so
it's probably all the same.
MRS. MOORE:
original owners.
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
Original (inaudible)? Yes,
Yes.
Then it became --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: GAMA has taken
title to it at this time.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, they are the owners
now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and I was only
looking at the proposed trip generation on
page 1 and -- which is --
MRS. MOORE: Help me out, where are you
reading?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Reading from the
actual backside of the full assessment form.
MRS. MOORE: The long EIS?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: At the end of it,
after it's been signed by the architect
engineer.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Well, you can ask
your question, I'd have to pull it out, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is
that we have approximately four times the
amount of activity on this site between 7 a.m.
and 8 a.m. We have twice as much between 4
a.m. (sic) to 5 p.m. I mean I'll read the
text again, if I have to, but I would be
concerned to know what the overall .... in
order to determine what the effect of the
additional traffic on the capacity of the
surrounding roadways, we assume that 50
percent of the additional trips generated by
the proposed 7-11 will be new trips and not
pass-through trips. Based upon the
assumption, the 7-11 will generate .... this is
page 2 .... 62 additional trips per hour during
the peak hour of 7 to 8 a.m. and 36 trips
during the peak hour of 4 to 5 p.m."
What about the rest of the day? I mean
MR. KEMPER: Eugene Kemper.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
doing?
MR. KEMPER: Kemper
Yeah. How are you
Engineering.
Basically when you do traffic analysis of
this nature, you concentrate only on the peak
a.m. and p.m. peak hours. You don't look at
the entire day cause that's your highest
volumes on the roadway. So you're looking at
the impact that the highest peak volumes and
you put the new inputs into the facility.
That's how -- that's the way you do the
standards, standard trip generation
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: These are actuarial
-- that's probably not the word --
assumptions; is that correct?
MR. KEMPER: Yes. These are based on
information provided by 7-11 and the
international traffic engineers trip
generation tables and information like that,
they're assumptions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of the main
concerns that I have, and I'm not speaking for
the Board, is the intense use of this site as
a 7-11 or the proposed intense use of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
site. It is also based upon the ramps that go
in and out of this structure. We'll refer to
it as two structures, the canopies, which
would not exist, but would then become parking
lot is the difficulty of entering and exiting
is during the entire day. I think the only
time you can really say that this would not be
used in a peak situation, okay, would be from
10:00 on at night and you could run peak
probably 7:30, 8:30, 9:00 all the way up until
about 10 and then she'll start to die off.
The reason why I asked that question about the
daily issue, okay, is that the people who will
use this particular concern, assuming it was
granted, would be high school students, would
be senior citizens who want only to grab milk
or grab any other quick facility they would
need to avail themselves of other than
utilizing a deli, the actual market, which
would be Waldbaum's, and the Handy Pantry down
the block.
Okay, so I don't -- I would like to see
the site generation unique to this site for
the sole purpose of a daily trip generation.
Okay, and that's what concerns me.
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MRS. MOORE: Hard to do without an
existing structure. Your basis are -- when
you do trip generation, you're basing it on
comparable 7-11s and statistical data that is,
you know, all the traffic analysis is really
based on. The only way you can do what you're
saying is to have the 7-11 there and do the
counts daily. We have to -- there are
assumptions that are being made and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, not necessarily
because it's not --
MRS. MOORE: Now it's a gas station.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you ran the gas
station, you ran strips in the gas station,
okay, and just the amount of people who went
into the gas station and either bought gas or
based upon the use of the convenience store,
which is extremely limited, okay, and then
intensified that three, four, five, six times
the amount, that would at least give us an
indication of what it would be on a daily
basis.
I have to tell you I've done trip
generation on my own on the one in Southampton
and I have to tell you you're talking 800
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
people an hour, easy,
7-11 in Southampton.
separate parking lot,
okay, in and out of that
Now that 7-11 has a
alright, it has a dead
end road and it has two accesses. Alright, it
has an access off of the road that takes you
into Southampton and it has an access off
County Road 39, plus a separate parking lot
adjacent and contiguous to the site itself and
again a dead end road, which kind of quiets
things down when you make a turn into it
either going to Southampton, the Village of
Southampton, or coming back from the Village
of Southampton and the reason why I know that
is a friend of mine very simply was a security
guard there and I did spend some time with him
during this entire summer and fall and I
counted the cars as they came in and went out
and it is phenomenal the amount of use that
that building would have, okay, that building
has.
I'm just telling you that this is not
even close to what that situation is, okay.
I'm talking about the estimates that you're
giving me here, okay. The closest thing would
be possibly the 7-11 in Cutchogue, but not
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anything to that degree. That has only one
single access in and out and it is very
difficult to make a left turn out of that 7-
11, particularly up to the hours of probably
just before noon as the traffic goes. It
flows back and forth in an east/west direction
during the day.
MRS. MOORE: If I could just make a kind
of simple point here, we are here for area
variances, not for Special Permits and the
SEQRA analysis for this project is Type II
area variance. So I appreciate what you're
asking, but I also, in deference to the
client, I don't see that there is a
relationship between what we're asking for as
a linear footage view issue and again we're
eliminating usage here. We're actually
eliminating a Special Permit, which is a
higher burden than the permitted use and we're
eliminating structures. So this is a really
very -- I thought it was a very simple
application of a permitted use.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you bring up
a very interesting case because that -- you're
absolutely correct about that, but I have to
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tell you that we
lift the Special
it exists today.
MRS. MOORE:
I'm sorry?
have never had the desire to
Permit on this operation as
What do you mean lift it?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do away with it.
MRS. MOORE: We can never do away with
it, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can remove it.
If there was --
MRS. MOORE: Well, it --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We've done that
with Special Permits before.
MRS. MOORE: -- becomes nullified if you
don't have a gas station there --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I understand
that, but I'm making a statement to you that
it has never been a case where we had a
problem there where we needed to address that
as a Board in general, okay, and what I'm
saying to you is that I understand exactly
what you're saying and I know that it's a Type
II action and I'm just telling you that you
supplied us with a trip generation that is not
accurate, in my particular opinion, okay. So,
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therefore, unless I get a trip generation, I'm
not going to vote in favor of the application
for any variances on it because I -- it's very
nice to take standard trip generations, okay,
and superimpose them and that's the reason why
I asked it.
Probability is something that has always
fascinated me, okay, and I have to tell you
this is not a fascination, okay, and I'm just
making that generalization.
MRS. MOORE: I -- I --
MEMBER SIMON: Let me ask a question
also. I think your point is well taken about
what it's about, but let me just ask you this.
65 feet is what the building is right now and
they're asking for 90 feet, right? What is
the size of 7-11 in Cutchogue and also how is
that relevant, does that have any bearing on
the size of this --
MRS. MOORE: We did (inaudible) the
square footages --
MEMBER SIMON: The length of the
building.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MRS.
dealing with
dimensions.
MOORE: No, because well you're
{inaudible} property of different
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOOE: We were looking at square
footages. So if you look at, I think off the
top of my head it Southold is larger --
Cutchogue is larger? Two of them are larger
and (inaudible) is larger than Greenport. I
have that information I can provide it to you.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, alright.
MRS. MOORE: It's not length, remember
it's square footage. We're dealing with the
fact that we have no basement.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words, the reason
it's going to be
enough for depth;
suggesting?
MRS. MOORE:
because -- yes.
longer is there's not room
is that what you're
It needs to be longer
I mean, alternatively, we
could push out into the --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- driveway.
MEMBER SIMON: Alriqht, question is, and
I guess this is more for the Planning Board,
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is that's a pretty dicey intersection because
of the traffic light, of course, and I don't
know whether the Planning
our business to take into
I wonder, is that traffic
Board -- that's not
account, but that --
-- and this is where
the traffic numbers, the usage numbers become
relevant because of the complexity of people
trying to make their way, thousands of cars
everyday, through that intersection, whether
this will be more or less than the anticipated
traffic that exists now, when it's a gas
station and a convenience store.
MRS. MOORE: But remember -- but this --
if you're coming into this facility there is
an ingress and a right turn only off of Route
25, then there is ingress/egress only on
Factory Avenue. So you're not dealing with
the traffic that's out on Main Road down
Factory Avenue in. You've actually made it
convenient to come in. The only traffic that
would be coming from the west, for example,
would have to go down Factory Avenue and in,
but most of the traffic is coming up Factory
Avenue.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. That means traffic
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heading toward Riverhead would probably find
it inconvenient to shop there.
MRS. MOORE: Probably if you're making a
left, yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: From Riverhead, not
toward Riverhead.
MRS. MOORE:
heading east.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
down Factory Avenue.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
MEMBER SIMON: And
Coming from Riverhead.
Coming from Riverhead
Right, you'd have to go
I mean there really is
it would be right turn
only coming out? No left turns?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, off Route 25.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so people are going
eastward and they're heading for Cutchogue,
they probably would --
MRS. MOORE: The only way into this would
be taking Factory Avenue into the building.
MEMBER SIMON: And then to get out.
And then to get out, also
MRS. MOORE:
Factory Avenue.
MEMBER SIMON: I see, okay.
MRS. MOORE: Unless they're heading west,
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
they're coming
MEMBER SIMON:
west, okay.
MRS. MOORE:
inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
in the site plan.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
variances before us
Code that, you know,
from the west.
They're coming from the
You have a site plan
It's very well described
Yes.
There are three
and one is so close to the
you know our policy is
always to try and grant the most minimum. If
you would be willing to do 10 inches less.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: 10 inches less.
MRS. MOORE: -- for the same reason that
it could be granted as diminimus, we also
could accommodate the (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It would mean there's
two variances instead of three.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
one question.
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MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible), yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Maintaining the existing
rear yard setback is essential, I mean, you
know, you have to do that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So then, you know,
you're really dealing with an 89 foot, let's
say, front elevation when the Code requires 60
and you're already at 65, right?
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And the argument there
is because it's rather narrow at 30 feet. You
need it for storage and so on.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. The building itself is
inadequate. We have to pop out in one
direction or the other and it certainly makes
more sense to pop out to provide the
additional square footage that's necessary for
the operation towards the west, excuse me,
east side of the property where it has very
little impact and remember there is -- there
really is no egress onto the shopping center.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, right. There's a
retaining wall there.
MRS. MOORE: There's a wall. So there's
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
dead end either way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It makes the most sense
designed --
MEMBER SIMON: Would the permit allow
storage on the east end of the building, could
that be used for something else? Suppose
there were a second business that was going to
be renting space in the same building, would
that be --
MRS. MOORE: That would be up to the
Building Department, I don't know. I don't
know that you could do it; that would be a
secondary use.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Are you talking about what
you're selling?
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: Whatever 7-11 sells --
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is -- that
sounds like existing -- I don't know very much
about that business, but to actually go to the
Board for a significant variance in order to
have storage space on the east end of the
building, I wonder whether there's some other
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ZBA Town of Southotd - December 4, 2008
motive that would make it worth the trouble to
get a significant variance in order to have
storage space right next to --
MRS. MOORE: But it's also circulation.
Remember it's the circulation of the retail
space in that you have a lot of coolers. 7-
lls tend to have a lot of big coolers, a lot
of refrigerated units. So that takes up a lot
of space, you have the coffee area. I think
internally they needed some additional
circulation. Once you use up that space for
the circulation, interior circulation, you
also need space to put boxes and your
material, you know, your --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so this is -- would
be like the back of the store because there's
no room at the back of the store for --
MRS. MOORE: No, right. Yeah, I mean the
building is only 30 feet in width, which is
not a big depth of the building.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: And that's the difference
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: So the one in Cutchogue is
perhaps bigger?
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MRS. MOORE: Yeah, more square I think.
Yeah, Cutchogue for example is at last 40 or
45. Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: I see.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: So it's roughly the same
volume, the same square footage?
MRS. MOORE: The volumes are comparable,
yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: They're all very comparable.
This actually has, I think, the largest
property. Yeah. That's one of the questions
I asked early on, you know, what's -- how does
this compare visually to the other buildings?
Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think the variances
are quite straightforward in terms of our job,
but I'm very much interested to hear what
anyone in the neighborhood might have to say
to see if they have anything we can consider
to potentially mitigate any impact that the
neighbors are concerned about.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before we do that,
I'd like to hear what Ms. Moore has to say
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regarding the letter from the Transportation
Cou~nittee.
MEMBER WEISMAN: She --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I'm more --
MRS. MOORE: There were a couple of
issues, yeah, the most important one, the one
that was problematic was the DOT.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The DOT.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly, which we are
addressing, but can't promise a -- what the
equivalent be State required a combination, I
mean we can give the easement, you can work
with them, but you're not going to give them
the property and then spend $200,000.00 to
make the improvements. That's a little over
the top and I think everybody was in agreement
with that, at least on the Planning staff and
Planning Board cause we talked about it at the
Planning Board.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's (inaudible) we
have to work with, the Planning Board? Are
you working with the DOT or the Planning Board
in terms of the resolution of the
Transportation Commission requirements?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Correct. Yes, we're
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
going to leave it. Planning, we discussed
what we're willing to do, which again was
granting -- provide for easements for the --
essentially what the DOT wanted to do it by
way of easements
that can be done.
issue and that is
for future improvements that
Who pays is always the
something we're going to
work with the DOT and the Planning Board, but
the Planning Board already acknowledged that
it was not -- it would be unfair to ask the
applicant to pay for that improvement given
that this is a reduction in the intensity of
the property, the uses on the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, neither can we
address no parking on State Route 25.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly. That is something
the Town Board --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not in our
jurisdiction.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly, that's the Town
Board. Landscaping,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
landscape plan.
MRS. MOORE:
don't
we actually --
Landscaping, we have a
-- gave you -- yes and I
know that they saw it. We have a
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
significant amount of additional landscaping
plan, it's pretty good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It depends on what those
little squiggles actually turn out to be. We
don't -- I mean I can see what are trees. I
don't -- because they're not filled out. A
landscape plan actually says what the planting
schedule is --
BOARD ASST.: There is one here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, yeah you have one
and there are some tables and --
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: You have a landscape
plan here and it does specify what the --
MRS. MOORE: You have one. I remember
seeing one, so -- yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You do. You do.
MRS. MOORE: We're also working,
obviously, with Architectural Review Board
that we had an initially meeting and we are
talking about this. Yeah, they wanted
alternative plantings they thought were more
native drought tolerant. I guess they were
concerned with cedars, was it, that --
whatever their changes were we have no
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problem, we agreed, and we are in the process
of revising the landscape plan --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: -- with the ARC's
recommendation.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, they're also
commenting upon the building itself.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, to look at the
building. For the most part, the look of the
building was not a problem. We had proposed
material usage, but they recommended
alternative use material, which I think we
agreed to as well.
and we have stone.
at the --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: --
didn't like the idea
Right? Yeah, hardy plank
It's proposed with stone
At the base.
at the base and they
of stone all on the one
wall. So we're reducing the stone on the
wall, which is -- we were offering more, but
they would actually prefer less. So we're
doing that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
Who else would like to be heard?
back. Okay.
In the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
Sir, could you state your name for the
record?
MR. HALLIGER: Good afternoon.
Halliger from Mattituck. I'm here
I'm Leroy
on behalf
of my Pastor, Reverend Marvin Dossier of Unity
Baptist Church, which is located on Factory
Avenue and he couldn't be here because he's
attending a funeral in Virginia and he asked
me to come forward. I'm a Deacon at the
Church and I've been before the Town Board
about problems we have encountered on Factory
Avenue. In fact, back in August Mr. Klein
considered it a side street. We have issues
with speeding on that street. We have issues
with delivery trucks going up and down coming
off of Aldrich Lane, Old Sound Avenue going
into the so-called light shopping plaza and
it's not a shopping center, it's a shopping
plaza. It is -- it has now two banks, a movie
theatre, a Waldbaum's, restaurants, dry
cleaners, ice cream, Rite-Aid, a drive-in. If
you've been there, you know what that area is.
That is not a light shopping center.
The word consistency, you know, we were
talking about words. I'd like you to keep in
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December 4, 2008
mind that word consistency. It says here that
you have three reasons for disapproval of this
variance because it does not go with the Code;
am I correct in that? I have them listed
here, but we have a single side yard of less
than the code-required minimum of 25 feet. We
have a rear yard at less than 35 feet. There
will be greater than 60
frontage on one street.
Code.
We,
now this
linear feet of
Consistency in the
the congregates and the residents,
is a quality of life issue that we're
concerned that affect the area. So we the
congregates and residents of Unity Baptist
Church located on Factory Avenue since 1931
are against this proposal to be located here
at that intersection.
I have a couple of questions. Has anyone
studied any of the police reports of accidents
that have occurred at that intersection in
that area? In fact, I believe this summer
there was one fatality of someone trying to
exit out of that parking lot that shopping
center back to the Main Road. I was just
wondering if anybody has {inaudible) --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of the accidents.
MR. HALLIGER: Hmm?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of the accidents.
I've been to most
I've been to most
MR. HALLIGER: Okay. Number two, a
traffic flow study been undertaken?
Councilman Klein called Factory Avenue a side
street. It's no more a side street. Trucks
are going all -- coming west and, instead, to
avoid going down Factory Avenue, making that
turn from Route 25 onto Factory Avenue,
they're going to Aldrich Lane and coming
around Old Sound Avenue and then down in to
make deliveries. If you've ever been there in
the morning or in the afternoon when these
Pepsi-Cola trucks and all of these 16-wheelers
are there, it's a hazard and someone is going
to get killed on that street. It's a quality
of life issue.
We're having problems with litter,
Dempsey dumpsters. Litter all up and down
that street. They go to McDonald's and they
come down Factory Avenue, they throw their
garbage all up and down that street, Factory
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Avenue. A quality of life issue. What about
the impact of this to our residents, to our
people who live on Factory Avenue?
Another thing, is 7-11 going to increase
the possibility of beer and cigarette sales to
minors of our community? We all know that
these kids will go in there or they'll ask you
to get them some beer or get them some
cigarettes. It's going to be another problem
with the youth in our community. Think about
that, quality of life issue. Also to mention
that if you go to Riverhead or some of these
places at night you've got these guys hanging
around, unsavory characters that we're going
to need some more police protection in that
area. We don't get enough to control the
traffic flow in that area or the speed limit
that goes up and down Factory Avenue. A
quality of life issue.
I've been before the Town Board asking
them to reduce the speed limit on that
it's at 35 miles an hour. They go
the railroad tracks both ways. We
community of 23 -- Mattituck Cottages,
community of homes over there now and they've
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flying over
have a
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got kids who are growing up. They can't even
walk down the street to go to the shopping
plaza without having to dodge cars cause
there's no sidewalks.
What about the reduction of the rural
characteristics of this area? Has that been
taken into consideration with the
proliferation of all these stores and
everything? We're getting to look like
Shirley/Mastic up here in Mattituck? What
about the impact on the local mom and pop
stores? I've had people tell me they enjoy
going down to the Mattituck Love Lane to get a
cup of coffee, bagel and what about the other
store down --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BOARD ASST.: Where,
Handy Pantry?
on Love Lane?
MR. HALLIGER: Yeah, what about those
other shops around there? What's going to
happen to them, those local mom and pop
stores? You know, what's going to be the
impact on them?
In conclusion, getting back to
consistency, if these Code variances are
granted it shows an act that is not consistent
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
with the Town Board professed principles of
Code Enforcement and also there is a petition
being circulated. Our Church will be the
first to have the residents sign the petition
not to have the 7-11 built
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else?
in our area.
Thank you. Anybody
MR. TILLMAN: Art Tillman, Mattituck. Of
course I go along with everything Leroy said.
Some other considerations, in the early 70s,
if I'm correct, I believe there were eight gas
stations in Mattituck. Not these big ones
that you see, places like Dinizio's which no
longer sells gas. It's gone from eight to
four and if this goes through it'll be down to
three. I keep reading in the paper the people
of Greenport seem to be concerned because I
believe there's only two gas stations there.
In one of the storms we had, I don't think it
was a hurricane, but it was a bad storm, there
was gas available at only one gas station in
town and it happened to be on the far east
side, the Empire station. The point is I
don't think we need less gas stations, I'd
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
like to keep it just the way it is. It's good
for competition. We all know, generally
speaking, the gas on the north and the south
fork is higher than it is in Riverhead. To
diminish the number of gas stations at this
point in time I don't think is a good idea.
It may be an industry trend, but they're
diminishing and they're getting bigger and
bigger, but I don't think Town government
should facilitate that.
Other things, this basically comes down
to property rights versus community interest
or community standards and this is a tough
one. A good friend of mine in the
Conservative Party, I won't mention his name,
he was going to come here today and he said
this is a tough call for me because I favor
property rights, yet at the same time there
are such things as community standards.
The fact of the matter is Mattituck does
not need a 7-11. I'm a bit of gadfly. I'm
retired. I like people, I wander around, I
talk and drink coffee in the morning. That's
my thing. I have yet to run into one person
that favors the 7-11. Had this hearing not
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snuck up on our and that's cause of our
ignorance, it had nothing to do with you, give
us a couple of weeks and, believe me, we could
come down with hundreds if not thousands and
thousands of signatures. Should we bother?
Do you want that? If you want it, we'll do
it. We can do it, we'll get it. The
community does not want the 7-11, period. End
of story.
Now, this is very subjective, but I
wonder is there any redeeming social value to
a 7-117 Is it the 64 oz. Slurpee that you get
for $1.99, the cup of which ends on the road?
The coffee is good, everything else in the
place seems to be overpriced. I'm a great
beer drinker. I said to a friend of mine, I
says, get a 12-pack of Heinekens, will you?
It usually goes for $16-$17 at the
supermarket. For some reason, he didn't stop
at the supermarket, he went to one of these
"convenience stores", which is basically what
a 7-11 is, it cost me $24 for the 12 bottles
of beer. The prices in these places are not
cheap and I think we all know this.
Now, I noticed in some of the previous
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arguments about some of the housing
discussions earlier the word came up
"standards". Well, what are community
standards? It's very subjective, it's hard to
measure, but I would say that they certainly
would include the desires, the hopes, the
needs, the wants of the community. Where are
the needs, the wants,
community, Mattituck,
it? It's not there.
the desires in this
for a 7-117 Where is
Also the gentleman -- I'm sorry, the
attorney spoke about they're not willing to
pay for the necessary road improvements
because they gave up certain rights, I guess
to sell gas or whatever, I don't know. Well,
that's somewhat of a paradoxical position.
I'm telling you nobody wants a 7-11, I think
you know that, and then you're going to ask to
subsidize this through our taxes to change the
road? It's ridiculous.
So there's a few of us here, this is just
the tip of the iceberg. We just got a few
guys together, but believe me we can get
organized and we can fill this place and I
give you all the signed petitions that you
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ZBA Town of Southold
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December 4, 2008
want. The bottom line is this community
doesn't want it and I really don't think
they'll tolerate it.
By the way, about Factory Avenue, I live
on the north side of town and when I go to the
Citgo gas station, where I go all the time, I
don't go down the Main Road, I go down Factory
Avenue because I can get to the Citgo station
by avoiding lights on Factory Avenue. So
Factory Avenue is indeed more of a
thoroughfare than it is what it was described
as a side street.
I guess that's I have to say. I think
you guys know what's happening. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Gentlemen? Anybody
over here? You can use that, you don't have
to come over.
MR. HUBBARD: I'll just be very brief.
I'm against the 7-11 in Mattituck. I've lived
there 30-some-odd years. My name is Dennis
Hubbard. As he said, the mom and pop stores
and both these gentlemen both said that you
got the delis in town. We got enough delis.
If you want a cup of coffee in the morning,
they open early enough you can get a cup of
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
coffee, you get your newspapers. One other
thing, excuse me for this, if you go up to the
shopping center, Waldbaum's Shopping Center on
a Friday or Saturday night, maybe you need a
battery for your watch so you go to the Radio
Shack to get a battery. Ail the kids hanging
the movie theatre are there. Okay,
good place, you keep them condensed
out at
it's a
there.
Now you got a 7-11 that's going to be
there, which was brought up. If you go to
Riverhead you see. Now you're going to have
- the kids have got a place now, the movie
theatre closes at 11:00, now you have to go
someplace, hopefully home. Now you got a
place that's open 24/7. They'll be hanging
out there, it's not a good thing. I don't --
I'm just -- again, I'm against the 7-11. I
don't want it. Our coramunity doesn't need it.
We have a town that has a main street
called Love Lane. 7-11 and Love Lane, dumb as
this sounds, do not equate, they just don't.
We don't need it. We have the stores, we have
the, as I said earlier, we have the mom and
pop stores. We have the delis that take care
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of everybody's coffee. We have the Handy
Pantry that's open late. A 7-11 is not an
asset to the town. It's not beneficial over
and above the traffic concern that it's going
to create and the fact that it's open 24 hours
a day. We don't need it.
That's all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. HUBBARD: And I come up here, I just
found out about this myself, as he said,
otherwise I probably would have had something
better prepared or written. A little more on
my side of the fence, but sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Yes,
Joe?
MR. FINORA: I wasn't planning on being
here, but a couple of the neighbors had asked
me to --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we need your
name, Joe.
MR. FIHORA: Joe Finora, Mattituck. A
couple of neighbors have asked me to stop by
and find out whatever I could about what's
going on. A gentleman mentioned something
about trip generation tables.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was me.
MR. FINORA: I'd like to know, the
gentleman that spoke before said that they
consulted some trip generation tables and it
really was not going to be an increase in the
number of trips. I had a little experience
with that in connection with a proposal that
was once made with the Hess gas station in
Mattituck. Those trip generation tables we
found were completely outdated. These were --
the trip generation tables that were
established like 10 or 15 years ago. We all
know that the situation has changed
drastically. You cannot rely on the trip
generation tables that the Department of
Transportation has, nor the statistical data.
It has not been updated in years, number one.
So that's -- those numbers that were given
out, in my opinion, are not valid.
Number two, I seem to have been around
when 7-11 was first organized. As a matter of
fact I (inaudible) that's at the corporation.
7-11 meant open 7 in the morning, close 11:00
at night; that's where they got the name 7-11.
Things have changed drastically since then.
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Not only in their hours of operation, but in
the entire populous of the area. You have an
increased amount of traffic. You have a store
that's going to be open 24 hours. The area
that it's planned for just cannot handle the
amount of traffic that's going to be generated
from that store. We had a bowling alley there
once, that was eliminated. Now you have a
CVS. With the CVS we have an increased amount
of truck traffic. That's going to be
compounded with the 7-11.
As far as the Department of
Transportation taking up the cost of the
variance in the Codes, you can forget about
that because the policy and everybody is on
the television telling you there's no money.
So I doubt if the Department of Transportation
is going to come across with any money to make
the area more amenable to a 7-11.
We also, in the area have five banks
within walking distance.
five banks, I don't know,
to do with 7-11, but all
added to the congestion in the
Why Mattituck needed
but this is nothing
these things have
area. I don't
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think 7-11 will be able to do well in the
particular area that it's in.
The other thing I wanted to say is
someone said that you're taking away something
by reason of the fact that the canopy is
coming off. Big deal. That has nothing to do
with what's going to be added. You're going
to take away the canopy and replace that with
an increased amount of traffic. Parking for
customers, where are the customers going to
park? The other 7-11s have their own parking
area. If you go to the parking -- to the
Waldbaum's Shopping Center at night, often
times those parking spaces are completely
filled up on account of the movie theatre,
which means there's going to be parking sought
after on the street, which I don't think could
handle it.
Sorry to say I was not planning on being
here, but some of the neighbors had asked me
if I would just do them a favor and stop by
and see what was going on, but I could tell
you that based on conversations I've heard in
and around town I think the town is going to
be up -- you're going to have to face quite a
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big protest from people in the area. That's
all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Very briefly on some of the
points that I do want to address. It's just
to point out as far as Mr. Halliger, as an
example, Southold 7-11 is very close if not
surrounded by a residential contmunity. I
happen to live down there and there is -- no
one seems to be impacted one way or another.
7-11s typically are very close to residences
in residential areas because it's a
convenience store. It's something that
someone middle of the night says, you know, I
don't have milk for breakfast in the morning
for the kids and goes out and gets the
breakfast makings. So with respect to the
impact on the residential neighborhoods, this
is a very heavily commercialized area, but
with respect to the community that is down
Factory Avenue, 7-11s have generally not
impacted residential areas. Just by
observation here in town, Greenport 7-11 is
next to a residential area as well.
With respect to the community pressure
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with whether or not we need it
it, the Board is unfortunately
tough job that's what you have
or don't need
you have the
to deal with.
This is a permitted use. We meet all the
parking regulations, the variances, as you
pointed out, are minimal. They are consistent
with the character of the area as this is,
again, we are surrounded by much larger linear
footage of structures and the fact that we
don't have a basement for storage this is the
only space that's available and this area is
needed.
With
that I've
respect to some of the criticisms
often heard about 7-11s, kids loiter
there. Actually, all you need to do is go up
and down and see the 7-11s. It's a matter of
management and I think the management
generally they have muzak that runs that's on
the outside. It kind of deters the kids from
hanging out. They get -- probably they go
crazy listening to the muzak and they
typically disperse. Good management in
Southold, for example, actually that was one
of the tricks that worked in Southold. The
management, if you have good management, they
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are very responsive to any complaints and if
the community does feel that there is
inappropriate behavior by others, management
typically is very responsive and they are very
-- most of these 7-11s are (inaudible) by
community members. So they know the community
and respond accordingly.
I think that the issues are pretty well
established. These are minimal variances.
When I pointed out the DOT what I emphasized
is that this property does not create the
problem of Factory Avenue and Route 25.
That's the issue, so that this property, as
it's developed now and there will be lesser
development with one use, has the -- the
corner has no impact. What was being asked
for before was the additional use to the gas
station convenience store and it was a car
wash because they are asking for additional
use the Town was looking for the property
owner to correct a situation that is existing
and was caused by others, if was designed by
others. That is not the case here now, we are
-- this is a lesser use as far as zoning uses
go. I don't have any other comments
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
(inaudible).
Any other questions, I'd be happy to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Has there been a public
hearing held by the Planning Board on this
property?
MRS. MOORE: No. We need the variance
before we can complete the
process.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
site plan review
So it has not
been before the Planning Board in terms of the
public hearing?
MRS. MOORE: No, it's been accepted for
circulation, it's being circulated, but the
final public hearing on the site plan will
have the public hearing process.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How far in terms of
SEQRA are you?
MRS. MOORE: They just started the
process, they have not completed the SEQRA.
Keep in mind again, that last time they killed
a project by a positive (inaudible) that would
completely inappropriate for this use, again,
as a single use. So SEQRA is not to be used
as a tool to deny development of a project.
There again, if the Planning Department feels
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
that there is additional information required
for under the long EIS, obviously we will deal
with it, but, as Mr. Kemper pointed out, we
are providing what is in the standard -- what
is in the industry the way a trip generation
is shown.
Any other questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have
of the Board is, as in the case of the
Mattituck project that we just approved, do we
hold the hearing in abeyance pending SEQRA or
do we close the hearing subject to SEQRA?
Tell me what you want to do.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, in that case, the
Board closed the hearing subject to SEQRA and
the applicant would grant extensions of time
while SEQRA was pending.
MRS. MOORE: Alright, you have here a
Type II action that's not -- that doesn't --
it usually gets closed out.
BOARD ASST.: Usually --
MRS. MOORE: It's not considered, because
of the size of the project, it's not a Type I.
MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible). Special
(inaudible}.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, the Board, let's wait
for the instructions from the Planning Board
to see how that develops.
MEMBER SIMON: I guess since I generally
favor working together with the Planning Board
when it's possible I think that's, you know,
since it's Type II SEQRA is not going to be a
big deal and take a long time.
MRS. MOORE: But we can't
understand we're in a Catch-22.
variance --
MEMBER SIMON: Isn't SEQRA going to
continue --
MRS. MOORE: Pardon me?
finish the --
We need the
MEMBER SIMON:
SEQRA?
BOARD ASST.:
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: Yes,
to close, to complete
Isn't that pending the
Yeah, it's pending, right.
It's pending.
Pending right.
but I need -- in order
the SEQRA process with
the Planning Board and complete the site plan
process, I need the variance because right now
without the variance we don't have a final
design. So that's the Catch-22 that we
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
typically want to have, you know, the
variances are necessary to be able to move
forward with the site plan process.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, again I refer back
to the Mooney project on Main Road in
Mattituck where Zoning provided comments to
the Planning Board and held it open until they
made some final site plan decisions and then
they -- Mr. Mooney came back before us and we
granted the variances.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just comment,
cause that application has been going around
and --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that was a disaster.
I don't know how --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Quite honestly, the
Mooneys came to us because the Planning Board
asked them, required them to do things that
needed variances. This is clearly different
from that, okay. The only permission they
needed from our Board was to park cars on a
residential piece of property. The other two
variances were required by the Planning Board
in the process. In other words, he didn't
come to us with an application and get denied
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
by a Building Inspector to get variances. He
went to the site plan review cause he didn't
need any variances until they required that he
move some buildings to certain locations.
So it's a little bit different than this.
This is just a, you know, these people are
asking for some minimal side yard variances
and Mooney doesn't apply to this.
MEMBER SIMON: But just
that, just for clarification,
decision on those variances,
a question on
Jim, the -- our
especially with
regard to the 90 feet, does this not have any
bearing on the Planning Board?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. I don't -- it has
absolutely none. Ail it says to us is that,
you know, we reviewed -- listen, honestly this
is the last hearing that I'm going be at okay,
so you can take whatever you want to take, but
quite honestly all you need -- all we're
making is a decision that we've reviewed what
this applicant needed with respect to the
setbacks and agree that he has enough of a
hardship, enough of a need to grant these
variances. It doesn't say that the Planning
Board has to do anything including approve
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
their site plan; it's wholly separate of that
and honestly this Board goes way over the line
when it wants to start coordinating with the
Planning Board cause it has nothing to do with
the Planning Board, none of this has anything
to do with the Planning Board it has to do
with Town government and we're part of that.
So, you know, you should make your decision
based on what you've heard and we don't
forfeit (inaudible) the Planning Board to do
anything by approving or disapproving or
granting alternate relief. As it does is let
them go to the Planning Board with a final
map, a final site plan that they have approved
by us for certain variances.
MEMBER SIMON: But --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't put them in the
(inaudible) of going back and forth.
MEMBER SIMON: -- is it also true that
they need a finding from us then they're
interested in the finding from us on the
variances before they can reach their own
decision?
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not an interest,
Michael, it's the (inaudible) --
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
MRS.
MEMBER SIMON: It is
Planning Board cannot --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MOORE: It's mandatory.
mandated by -- the
Not by the --
law.
MRS. MOORE: It's mandated by the Town
MEMBER DINIZIO: By the Town Code.
MEMBER SIMON: They can do SEQRA without
us. They can do SEQRA without us, but --
MRS. MOORE: So how are we going to
complete SEQRA without knowing that this
addition is acceptable? That's the whole
point.
MEMBER SIMON: Is SEQRA on hold? Is
SEQRA on hold until we reach a decision?
MRS. MOORE: I believe that it will not
be -- it cannot be completed because we don't
have a final plan.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. MOORE: Our
Right and you --
final plan is this, but
it needs your variances.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right --
MRS. MOORE: Right now we have a
nonconforming -- incomplete application.
won't have a complete application until
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
variances are decided. Once we have your
variance, then we have a complete application
for the Planning Board that they can then
complete SEQRA and complete site plan review.
MEMBER SIMON: Let's suppose that what we
say on these substantive issues when we have
discussion could very well overlap with some
of the concerns that the Planning Board has,
then it makes a difference whether we have to
go first as opposed to being in discussion
with them. In particular, the size of the
building, which is the biggest cause the
setbacks are going to be minimal. If that has
a variance as to how big it's going to be or
it doesn't then I agree that we should
probably decide it independently.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
Well, it's a 60-foot rule.
Right.
The size of the building is
based on the character of the area and we're
surrounded by a huge shopping center.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, doesn't that
overlap with the concerns of the Planning
Board?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
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MRS. MOORE: No.
MEMBER SIMON: What are their -- what is
their interest in this?
MRS. MOORE: They're parking and traffic
circulation.
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: And screening, and drainage.
MEMBER SIMON: That's it?
BOARD ASST.: Lighting.
MEMBER SIMON: Then I think --
MRS. MOORE: Lighting.
MEMBER SIMON: They're not interested in
environmental impacts?
MRS. MOORE: Right. Environmental
impacts is based on the parking and the
drainage and mitigating any --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: The environmental
actually being mitigated by removal
impact is
of the gas
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Here's the issue
right now, okay, and you know I've heard
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MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: That is environmental
impact.
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
enough and I'm just mentioning it to you that
doesn't mean I'm closing everybody's opinion
out, we'll close the hearing and we'll wait to
see if the Planning Board is going to grant
SEQRA. Okay, if for any reason it needs to be
extended or we need your approval to extend
it, we will do so. Okay? That's after we
speak to them.
MRS. MOORE: You're asking if they're
going to grant SEQRA without the variance in
place?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am asking if when
they -- I am asking you that we are not
accelerating anything in my suggestion, okay,
we will wait a little while to see if they are
going to grant SEQRA.
BOARD ASST.: Well, they have 62 days
anyway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And if for some
reason we get close, we'll send you a letter
and say we need another ten days or something
like this because I think, you know, that's
basically it. I'm not saying that we have to
rush into it immediately, and I realize that
bootstraps you a little bit, but if that's the
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
case the Board can
come up with a decision at
want and that's the way it
it's usually done anyway.
overrule it. They can just
any time if they
is. That's the way
MEMBER WEISMAN: But perhaps for the
record, we ought to indicate to those in the
audience that there is among some of us,
certainly I'll speak for myself, there is a
frustration in the limited jurisdiction that
the Zoning Board has relative to the attempts
to recognize New York State Law which does not
permit us to interfere with commerce, which is
why some chain stores are allowed in. Our
laws basically are based on square footages
rather than branding. We can't -- we don't
have the legal jurisdiction to exclude a
permitted use of a franchise as a Southolder
and a Stakeholder, I'm incredibly sensitive to
the nature of our community and the
transformation of it into a far more
commercialized environment, Mattituck being a
prime example. Sort of Love Lane as the
Mason/Dixon line of commercialization of the
North Fork, as far as I'm concerned, but I
think it's important for the public to
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
understand that the variances before us are
really different than the notion of whether
the impact of a 7-11 is going to have an
adverse affect on a neighborhood. We do take
into account character of the neighborhood as
one of our criteria, but traffic impacts and
those kinds of things are essentially part of
the site plan process, which the Planning
Board deals with, though again it affects
character of the neighborhood.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Cause it'll create
congestion and I don't think the public is
very aware of the distinct differences between
these agencies and what we're allowed to do.
I mean the Town Board is a good place to talk
about issues of concern in the community in
terms of impact of stores that are open 24
hours a day and there will be impacts, there's
no question about it, but I think I just
wanted to mention that to those of you in the
audience who spoke with such heartfelt feeling
and insight about the possibility of what
might result in a negative way from having a
7-11 there relative to other businesses. You
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
know, mom and pop stores relative to kids
having another place to hang out and so on,
these are really not things the Zoning Board
has much jurisdiction over and it's very
frustrating, to me anyway,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
too.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
affect our community.
because --
Frustrating to me,
-- you know, it does
It affects all of us
whether you live in Mattituck or you live in
Southold, like I do, we all live together on
the north fork and the overall impact is
substantial as we see things
So I wanted to say this
people to understand what it
change.
cause I want
is our Board can
do. We can say reduce the variances to two
by, you know, creating an 89-foot rather than
a 90-foot long building. We can't tell them
to move the building, that's impractical. So
that rear -- side yard and the rear yard is
going to stay and the use is permitted. So we
could say make it a 70-foot building, but we
can't say you can't put the building there
because it's -- the Code permits it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
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December 4, 2008
MRS. MOORE: Just for the record to
create a complete record, you have a 60-foot
rule that variances were granted for CVS. You
have the Mattituck shopping center that is
100-and 200 feet in linear length at least and
you have another shopping center, the
(Inaudible) Center, which is diagonally across
the street. So the character of the area are
buildings that exceed the 60-foot rule and in
fact exceed 90 feet
existing structures.
that out that --
MEMBER SIMON:
in length as a matter of
So I would just point
I'm glad you did. That
cuts both ways, what we could say is look it's
already irreversible and we could go along
with it, or we could say look we should maybe
we could regret. We could say if we had a
chance to do some of these decisions again CVS
and so forth, we might very well have not
granted the variances under 90 feet.
MRS. MOORE: Uh, you also have to
consider the length of the property, the size
of the building --
MEMBER SIMON: So it could go either way.
MRS. MOORE: -- and the fact that we are
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ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
conforming with --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
MRS. MOORE: -- we've agreed to conform
with the side yard setback that --
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- realistically the length
of the building makes no impact on the rear
yard since that's
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
a blocked access.
Right.
So, I mean there are
arguments certainly --
MEMBER SIMON: On both sides.
MRS. MOORE: Many arguments both sides,
but certainly many in favor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to make a
motion to close the hearing pending SEQRA and
I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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42O
ZBA Town of Southold - December 4, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature~ ~~' Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
December 24, 2008
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