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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
October 30, 2008
9:26 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH D. OLIVA - Member
J~/~ES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
INDEX OF HEARINGS
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing:
Lynn and Arthur Boulanger ~6211
Costas Terzis %6212
Thomas and Mary Irene Marron %6216
Judge and E. Costello %6209
Helen and Peter Louca #6213
Vincent Larocca #6208
Joan E. Shannon #6214
Patricia and Robert Friemann #6217
Peter and Sabrina Pezzino %6210
Estate of Susan Deleo #6229
Steve and Olga Tenedios #6198
Broadwaters LLC #6186
Page:
3-6
6-39
39-63
63-77
77-82
82-135
135-151
151-154
154-188
188-197
197-246
246-310
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER: So moved.
BOARD MEMBER: Second.
Call meeting to
HEARING %6211 - Lynn and Arthur Boulanger
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-15, based on the Building Inspector's
June 23, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
a proposed accessory garage in a front yard,
rather than a rear yard, at 1150 Vanston Road,
Cutchogue; CTM 111-4-6."
MS. DWYER: Hi, I'm Nancy Dwyer on behalf
of Lynn and Arthur Boulanger.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us?
MS. DWYER: The house is actually on a
corner lot, it's on the corner of Vanston and
(inaudible). The property at its deepest is
97 feet wide or so. It's a long narrow lot
and this was the most inconspicuous place we
could find to put the two-car garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: I believe the garage is 24
by 24.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
MS. DWYER: That's correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: And the height would be 17
feet 10.5 inches.
MS. DWYER: Correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: I had only one question
for you, it's a two-car garage?
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: The drawing it just shows
one.
MS. DWYER: It's one large door.
MEMBER OLIVA: Just one large door.
Okay.
MS. DWYER: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Usually you see the two
doors, I wondered why you did the one door.
MS. DWYER: They requested one door.
MEMBER OLIVA: Otherwise, you have a
difficult location and it's much better to
have a garage to keep your car in.
I don't have any problem with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I noticed you're
using truss construction on the roof and
that's probably the reason why the ceiling or
the ridge height is a little bit higher.
MS. DWYER: That was the request of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
contractor to use truss construction.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it seems like it is
very appropriate given the dimensions of the
lot the proposed citing, so you have -- it's
not even that huge a variance. It's a tiny
little road so there's really no (inaudible)
nonconformance setback from --
No questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I just -- if there were
not to be a variance, there wouldn't be any
place on
correct?
MS. DWYER: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No
(inaudible) rear yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that property for a garage at all,
front yard,
The only question I
have is the utilities. What utilities will
you be placing in the garage? Electricity?
MS. DWYER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nothing else?
MS. DWYER: Nothing else. It would just
be electric just for the garage door, the
opener and a couple of lights proposed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there
anybody in the audience would like to speak in
favor or against this application?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Seeing no hands,
I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6212 - Costas Terzis
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-14 and 280-124, based on an application
for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's October 8, 2008 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning as-built construction
which exceeds the code limitation of 2-1/2
stories in height and lot coverage limitation
of 20 percentage of the buildable area of the
lot, and which is set back at less than the
code required minimum of 35 feet in the rear
yard. Location of Property: 765 Dogwood
Lane, Southold; CTM 54-5-32."
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: An associate of Mr.
Arnoff's?
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
MR. SIEPMANN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. SIEPMANN: Fine. Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Your name please for the
record? We are recording that's why --
MR. SIEPMANN: Law offices of Harvey
Arnoff, by Paul Siepmann, 206 Roanoke A~enue,
Riverhead, New York.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SIEPMANN:
Chairman, members
Thank you.
Good morning, Mr.
of the Beard.
I have a couple of packets I'd like to
pass out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. SIEPMANN: I also have the original
meeting cards and affidavits, they were faxed
in (inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Are there any cards that
went not --
MR. SIEPMANN: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. SIEPMANN: What I'm passing out is
the original building permit together with the
inspection cards, copies of the inspection
cards and also attached to the end is a Board
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
determination concerning a neighbor's
property. With the
address some of the
more routine ones.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. SIEPMANN:
Board's permission, I'll
easier aspects first, the
That's fine.
During the processing of
this application some questions were raised
about the rear deck. It appears that there
was nothing in the Building Department file as
far as the CO goes.
In counting the deck there were issues
then as to lot coverage and also the setback.
I would point out that the deck was
constructed by a prior owner, it wasn't
constructed by the homeowner, Mr. Terzis. It
was, to the best of our knowledge, constructed
approximately 30 years ago in the last 1970s.
I don't know why this issue didn't come up
when the building permit was originally filed
for the second story addition, but for
whatever reason it was missed at that time.
The determination that is attached to each of
the packets is for the immediate adjacent
homeowner who, although his specific request
was denied, the Board did grant alternate
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
relief which is greater than the relief that
Mr. Terzis is seeking in regard to the deck.
By that, I mean the relief granted to the
neighboring homeowner allowed for greater than
30 percent lot coverage and in calculating the
-- I'm sorry, not to exceed 30 percent, but in
calculating lot coverage as it is now, the as-
built construction on Mr. Terzis' lot we are
just about right at 21 percent. So we're
talking about a variance on the lot coverage
of no more than 1 percent.
As far as the setback for the rear yard
goes, the setback from Mr. Terzis' rear yard
property line, which is in effect a common
property line with the neighbor, that is to
say the line goes straight across it's
actually approximately, I believe, two feet
greater setback than was granted to the
neighbor in enclosing his porch and adding a
rear yard addition there.
So based upon the fact that this hardship
was self-imposed that the relief requested is
minimal, that there really is no alternative
considering it is as-built construction, other
than tearing the deck down and rebuilding it,
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
we would ask that those variances be granted.
Now, in regard to the second story
addition, this is slightly more complicated
and I have presented the application packets
to the Board with the inspection cards to
allow the Board to get a feel of how this
actually transpired. The construction was
done pursuant to a building permit. Mr.
Terzis had come in. He had plans, the plans
were reviewed. There were changes requested,
the changes were made and the construction was
done. What you'll see, not only is the
building permit, but then some of the
inspection cards and you'll note that on the
first inspection in November l0th of '97 there
was a question as to the
"possible third story".
Now, Mr. Terzis was
framing cause of a
advised by the
Building Department and I believe by Mr.
Verity, although Mr. Terzis is here today and
he would be available to answer your
questions, if you have any, that in order to
avoid the complication of a third story that
he had to do was he had to lower the ceiling
in that finished attic area to under 7 feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
and that if he did that everything would be
fine. So Mr. Terzis did indeed do that and
you can see that subsequently there was a
framing and rough plumbing inspection on
November 26th and then there was a final
framing inspection on December 3rd and the
framing at that point was approved and the
steps went on. So that after the framing, he
had the insulation inspection, the insulation
was approved, after the framing was
(inaudible) by a couple of days the structure
was insulated and then the walls were covered
up.
The reason Mr. Terzis didn't immediately
file -- yes, sir?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Covered up on the
second story or the proposed -- or the attic
area?
MR. SIEPMANN: I am not entirely certain.
Mr. Terzis can answer that for us, I'm sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MR. SIEPMANN: In any event, my
understanding is the steps for the inspections
are you can't have the insulation done and
inspected until the framing is done.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CHAIRMAN
MR. SIEPMANN:
improved so that he
approved so that he
GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
So the framing was
could schedule -- it was
could schedule the
insulation inspection and that was done also.
In any event, as far as the issuance of a
final CO, Mr. Terzis had some slight
difficulties in getting compliance with some
of the subcontractors who had worked on the
site. He needed to get a certificate from the
plumber concerning the lead content of the
soldering, he needed to get the certificate
from the electrician from the underwriter's
lab, and as these individuals were paid prior
to and for whatever reason they were slow,
very slow in getting these certificates to Mr.
Terzis and, quite honestly, things kind of
fell through the cracks. As far as he was
told everything was done it was his
understanding that the CO would be issued once
he submitted these other certificates that
didn't involve any inspections or anything
else.
So in finally getting around to trying to
legalize and by that I mean the issuance of a
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CO, he got the certificates in and the
Building Department came back out because the
file was rather old and he said, oh, wait we
have a third story here. So really what we're
asking the Board to do, in light of the fact
that Mr. Terzis has proceeded with the
construction, has complied with all the
Building Department's requests concerning
modifying the plans, had built it as the
Building Department directed him to build it
and in having always not created this r~ally
as a self-imposed hardship, is not so much a
variance, but to exercise the Board's power to
overrule a determinaticn of the Building
Department that this finished attic
constitutes a third story.
I believe he has complied with everything
he was supposed to and the total height of the
structure is still less than the Town Code.
The impact is minimal to the neighborhood. It
has been existing now fbr over 10 years. I
don't believe there has ever been any
complaints to the Building Department
concerning this structure and we would ask for
this minimal relief.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRIN~ER:
your client that question
this up?
MR. SIEPMANN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Could we just ask
so that we can clear
What is up there at
this particular time and then we'll continue
with the rest of the questioning of both
yourself and -- cause the Board will have a
question for everybody.
MR. SIEPMANN: I would also point out
that we have -- in the interim, we have
submitted another proposed plan to the
Building Department whereby to alleviate some
concerns we have proposed the installation of
a sprinkler head at the top of the stairway
for the finished attic space. So that is
something that isn't existing, but something
that we are willing to do and have proposed.
Mr. Terzis if you'd step up perhaps you
can let the Board know what you're using the
Alright --
Terzis, I'm a
finished attic for.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. TERZIS: Costas
licensed architect practicing in New York
City.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
Before we start the questions, I like to
go farther in my introduction. I am
practicing architecture for 35, close to 40
years. I'm very concerned about laws and
codes manipulations. I advise my clients
constantly how to proceed and how to draw the
drawings to comply with those regulations. I
wasn't familiar with Southold's particular
laws, but they told me I have to comply with
New York State. New York State has a
definition about the attic and your department
has a definition, they have no problem except
for the height, which we lowed under 7 feet.
What I'm trying to say is that I build
this by the book because I'm a registered
architect I didn't want my name to come into
any way or form in town that I misused or I
did something I wasn't supposed to do. So I
want you to understand my situation.
Please proceed with questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I merely want to
ask you, sir, does -- what is the use of that
attic area now?
MR. TERZIS: The use, it's empty.
Basically it's mostly storage and I use it to
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
go to a little baloony.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. TERZIS: It has
Okay.
a little balcony
which to go there I have to go through the
attic. The little balcony really I
(inaudible) it was pretty necessary, I don't
think it has anything to do with the Board,
but I'm able to see the water from there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no. I
understand, but is the room heated in any way?
MR. TERZIS: Not at the present time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it intending to
be heated?
MR. TERZIS: Well, depends on the
decision of the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the room is
sheetrocked, however?
MR. TERZIS: Sheetrock and plywood. It's
not finished flooring.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes and there are
electrical receptacles in the area?
MR. TERZIS: There are receptacles.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Every ten feet or
to Code, whatever the case may be?
MR. TERZIS: There is a light for the
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attic.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
ceiling height is
foot?
MR. TERZIS:
Okay, however, the
just in and around that 7
Yeah, it's under 7 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
let's proceed then.
next regarding this,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay. Alright,
Who would like to speak
I'll give you the option.
Good morning. I would
like to point out for the record that the
reference to the variance granted to the
neighbor, (inaudible) that you're referring
to, their lot is 50 feet wide. It's much
smaller than Mr. Terzis' lot and the relief
for lot coverage, it's a very a-typical lot,
as I know you realize, in that neighborhood.
So circumstances were significantly different,
I think. Mr. Terzis has a really -- you have
a really large side yard going toward the
wetland preserve, you know, Town preserve
property, the other neighbor and over toward
the water, so I'm not sure that that applies.
The one percent lot coverage is not
necessarily something that the Board is
unwilling to consider. It is a fairly small
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
variance.
MR. SIEPMANN:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It's five percent.
Yeah, it's a five
percent variance, it's not -- you know, it's
one percent over is a five percent variance.
MEMBER SIMON: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: With regard to the as-
built deck, I don't think it has any
significant impact on anybody, but it is a
substantial variance in terms of the setback.
It abuts a wooded property and it's not
visible from the street. My bigger concern, I
think, is this use of the designated or the
Building Inspector's claimed third floor.
Has anyone ever used it to sleep in,
kids, guests, whatever?
MR. TERZIS: No. The house is very
small, has no cellar.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
MR. TERZIS: I use it mostly for storage
and simple storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. There is no --
so you're saying that there is no heat in that
-- there's no heat at all in that area?
MR. TERZIS: (Inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - Ostober 30, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you -- how would
you feel about having those of us who are
interested in doing so --
MR. TERZIS: Excuse me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How would you feel about
those of us who are able or interested in
doing so coming to inspect the inside of the
house?
MR. TERZIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that acceptable to
you?
arrangements
time.
MR. TERZIS: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. TERZIS: Just have to make
because I'm not here all the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MR. SIEPMANN: I'd also point out to the
Board, I'm sorry, I know you don't have it in
front of you, but there were pictures that
were submitted with the original application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We do have nhem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do have them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We do have them and we
have seen them and it gives us a good sense
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
what's inside, but it is not uncommon to
request -- for the Board to request an
interior inspection when it's looking at a bed
and breakfast or a third story or something of
that nature where you can't tell from the
outside what's going on.
Alright, I'll reserve any further
questions or statements for later. I don't
have any more at this point.
MEMBER SIMON: I would concur basically
with Leslie with regard to many of the
questions. Yes, I think the differences
between this lot and the one later, which was
given a variance, are so significant that I
don't think that the use of that as part of
the case either helps or hurts Mr. Turzis'
case. I mean it's sufficiently different not
to really have one bearing on the other.
The other -- concerning the deck, I
wasn't quite sure I understood why you said it
was not self-created except -- the argument
simply was well it was created by the previous
owner; is that the argument?
MR. SIEPMANN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: So it was created not by
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
the applicant, but by a previous applicant.
MR. SIEPMANN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. TERZIS: We bought the house this
way.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Right, I understand.
MR. TERZIS: We bought it exactly like
that.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand. The
question about the -- as I understand, I was
interested in your story about the history of
how this happened that the Building Department
used different definitions of what counts as a
third story and so we have a case where on one
-- I'm not challenging at all the idea all
this is in good faith and I realize that
having a professional is one reason why people
are less likely to do anything other than what
is in good faith and by the best knowledge of
an experienced architect of the Code. What we
have here is the kind of inconsistency and
whether this should never have been approved
in this way or not is kind of water over the
dam in this case cause it's not the client's
fault that this happened.
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So what we are being asked to do, I
suppose this is within our jurisdiction, is to
basically overrule the Notice of Disapproval
with this respect rather than grant a variance
on this, as you say, because we don't -- we
simply do not have at this point enough
information, detailed information about what
the Code was, I was interested in what you
said, and what this looks like to be able to
make a substantive determination. I certainly
support Leslie's idea that it would be useful
to have a look at it. I'm just -- and I also
agree that the real issue is, as far as I'm
concerned, I can only speak for myself,
whether it can be used as a third floor, will
be used as a third floor rather than as a
half-story cause I think at that -- the
functional difference between two and a half
stories and two stories is in many respects
whether the half story is further living space
or not and so that's my question.
Would you be -- I think you're interested
in getting the C of
MR. SIEPMANN:
MEMBER SIMON:
O for this property --
Right.
So it's not ultimately
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whether you can or cannot be open and free to
turn it into the third floor apartment and
that could be determined by this Board itself.
MR. TERZIS: When you come you see what
it is, sir.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. TERZIS: It's not third floor at all.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. TERZIS: It's not even half of the
top square footage of the house.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. TERZIS: It's probably maybe 40
percent or 30 percent of the top square
footage.
MEMBER SIMON: That's fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why it's helpful
to come and have a look and verify it, not
that there's any,
you're saying, it
it --
MR. TERZIS:
in my mind, mistrust in what
just is a way of confirming
Excellent.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that makes a lot of
sense. The other thing that we can do is ask
the Building Inspector to testify before us as
to why this interpretation was made to begin
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with given that the ceiling height is less
than what habitable space requires by Code.
MR. TERZIS: By the way, the ceiling
height was never measured by the Inspector.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the --
MR. TERZIS:
doors when he was
Oh.
Maybe when they just saw
We didn't even have the
looking at the inside only
was we do the outside.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I see.
MR. TERZIS: When I mentioned to him
let's do some measurement, it's okay, it's
okay. Another thing which I didn't like, I
bring it here to the Board.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, it would be helpful
for us to have this testimony by the Building
Department and I understand your position.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the only
problem with that is that the Building
Inspector that signed these inspections is
retired and he's been retired for about 2-1/2,
3 years now, that's number one. Number two,
have there been any current inspections on the
property?
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MR. TERZIS: Well, the last one was with
the Building Inspector when they asked --
requested the final inspection. Nothing
changed since (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
The first one was, I
Right.
suspect, the
construction cause that's what it says and
that was done by John Buffus. So you're not
going to get any testimony from John.
BOARD ASST.: What's the third story area
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it -- that's
(inaudible).
MR. TERZIS: Excuse me, by the way, when
Mr. John Buffus made that inspection and he
used that form he present to his Chief
Inspector, I don't remember his name, ten
years ago --
MEMBER OLIVA: Forrester.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Forrester.
MR. TERZIS: They called me the Building
Department and we discussed the whole
situation and that's where the decision came
to make sure I have the ceiling under 7 foot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. I
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think there's been some interpretation of that
since then, Mr. Terzis, but let's go on.
MEMBER OLIVA: Would you mind if there
was a condition put, if we decided to approve
the attic, that there be no bedroom space in
that area?
MR. TERZIS: There be no what?
MEMBER OLIVA: Bedroom space, you know,
to sleep.
MR. TERZIS: No, no bedroom space there.
MEMBER OLIVA: It'd be only for storage
and --
MR. TERZIS: I like to go up there and
watch the Connecticut and the Sound.
MEMBER OLIVA: That's alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: We could not --
BOARD ASST.: One at a time.
MR. TERZIS: It would require a chair and
maybe it would require a couch or something or
a table. You see
sleeping. Yes.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER OLIVA:
BOARD ASST.:
I don't care (inaul_"_ble) 'for
Right.
Okay.
Yeah, I didn't
get that, a
table and chairs did you say?
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. SIEPMANN: We are seeking a variance
to allow that to be habitable space in the
nature of a bedroom --
MEMBER OLIVA: Alright, right.
MR. SIEPMANN: -- for any sort of
overnight quests or even on a temporary basis.
So if there were any restriction that the
Board would like to impose in that regard, I
don't think we have any problem with that.
That was also kind of my purpose in suggesting
the Board could simply overrule the
determination that it constituted a third
story so that you're not in a position of
granting a variance that would serve as some
kind of precedent.
Mr. Terzis is in the unfortunate position
of having done everything and it being
completed and, you know, he would like to get
the CO without having to rip everything apart
and start from scratch with the (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: That's why I think an
inspection by the members of the Board would
be very important.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You had indicated
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to us counsel that there is the -- either the
probability or the possibility or there
exists, okay, a sprinkler head at the top of
the stairs?
MR. SIEPMANN: One of the issues, my
understanding in regard to the Building
Department issue with it, is that if it is
habitable space then you need sprinklers on a
three-story wood structure, if it's habitable
space. So if the Board were willing to
approve it based upon there being a sprinkler
head up there, we would install the sprinkler
head. If the Board wishes to approve it with
the condition that it's not considered a
bedroom, then I would suggest we don't need
the sprinkler head, but nonetheless we are
willing to do some degree of modification to
get the CO.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
before this Board before,
You have not been
to my knowledge, and
that has nothing to do with this application,
but I just want to explain to you that we have
had significant applications regarding the
possibility of observatories and so on and so
forth or just sitting areas, very similar to
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what your client is requesting. Alright, we
still require for that use the use of a
sprinkler system in that area because that
could happen. The fire could happen
downstairs, it can go -- fire always goes up,
okay, and he may not be aware or his family
may not be aware of what's going on. There
are actually builders sitting here in this
audience of applications that we have had
regarding these types of situations. Okay.
Does the house have a comprehensive fire
suppression system at this time?
MR. TERZIS: It has smoke detectors in
all the rooms and hallways and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you,
sir.
MR. TERZIS: -- also the attic.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'd just say I think it
would be better if we went and inspected the
property so we have a -- I mean we've seen the
pictures and it looks very large up there when
I looked at the pictures of the attic and I
think, as Ms. Weisman said, it'll be very good
if we inspected it.
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MR. TERZIS:
BOARD ASST.:
MR. TERZIS:
We'll make arrangements.
Did you want to set a date?
I have to make a trip here
and I'll be more than happy to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, any Saturday
morning would be applicable.
MR. TERZIS: Okay, Saturday will be good.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, just to clear a
few things up, I don't see any inspections
here by John Buffus.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the first
one.
MR. DINISIO: Oh that's just a building
permit issued. I don't believe he went out to
the house and --
MR. TERZIS: Did he see what, sir?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It says
construction and single-story addition --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but that's the
building permit, that's not an inspection.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's just he sat in
the office and issued the building permit
based on plans.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, then I read
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it wrong. I apologize.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's alright. I
was just trying to make it clear. So I see
Gary Fisher, you know, says it's a possible
third story. It had some -- I guess afner
going out and inspecting the framing.and
stuff, he had some questions concerning that
may be a third story. The plumbing
inspection, then framing, I guess, and then
insulation, okay to cover it says. ! see
nowhere where you addressed that that was a
third story. I don't see anyplace that says
it's not a third story other than your
testimony that says that it's only a 7-foot
ceiling in there.
MR. TERZIS: The drawings indicate that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I understand and i
don't believe that this Board can grant a
variance to the State Code. I mean a story is
-- has certain dimensions. One of those
dimensions is that the ceiling must be a'
certain height and your application is --
doesn't meet that criteria, so I don't know
how we're saying that that's a third story --
how we could possibly say it's a third s~ory.
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It doesn't meet the building code, we can't
grant a variance to that. So I'm thinking
that it's storage and I'm thinking that all we
really should be doing is telling the Building
Inspector that, you know, it is what you
thought it was, it's a 2-1/2 story house, you
know, with an attic.
Ail the uses that you said you would like
to do are things you can do in an attic. You
could walk through an attic. Certainly is
there's a door there you can walk out 0f an
attic. You're not going to sleep in iu, you
told us that.
So i just would like to just get to one
point, which would be what brought you here ib
you needed to gel a CO for this, so you never
actually went and got the CO, right?
MR. SIEPMANN: That's correct.
MEMBER DfNIZIO: Right, you know, but --
and I'm not experienced in how a CO is
actually issued, but when you went there did
you have all the ~tuff that you needed for a
CO with the exception of --
MR. TERZIS: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- eleven years.
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MR. TERZIS: I did but --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Am I right?
MR. TERZIS: I filled out an application
also and they said they have to come for an
inspection.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MR. TERZIS: They came for an inspection,
they say, oh, it's three stories. So they did
have to come for --
MR. TERZIS: They make determination, the
Building Department.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but they did have
-- in other words, you gave them the stuff.
They said, oh, we have to go out and do a
final on the house?
MR. TERZIS: Exactly.
MR. SIEPMANN: I think because the permit
had expired and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. SIEPMANN: Well, (inaudible) but it
has been a --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it's eleven years
now. Okay, '97, it's '08. It's --
way
MR. TERZIS:
It was ten years ago by the
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MEMBER DINIZIO: But in any case there
was a point where you had to have a final
inspection you hadn't had and you just had it
recently, so he's applying today's rules to
yesterday's construction.
MR. SIEPMANN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I would be a little
uncomfortable with granting a third story
there, but I think that, you know, a third
story would need a variance from the State
Building Code, you know, because this doesn't
meet all that criteria and you know I just
think if we just overturn the Building
Inspector's determination that would be the
quickest, easiest
That's all I
MR. SIEPMANN:
least liability to us.
have. Thank you very much.
If that were the Board's
decision, we would be perfectly happy with
that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just so everybody's
aware of the situation, when I was referring
to Mr. Buffus regarding this, I would have
hoped that he would have picked that up when
he wrote the permit, alright, to alleviate all
of this problem what we have that your client
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went through and when I was saying that we
could not question him now, we can't because
he has retired and that was my issue.
MR. SIEPMANN: I understand, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we'll see
what else develops throughout the hearing.
Are you going to get back to us regarding
what Saturday is available to you?
MR. TERZIS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
BOARD ASST.: If it's possible, if you
could have the answers to the questions in a
letter that would be --
MR. TERZIS: It would be after the
elections
BOARD ASST.: -- great rather than --
MR. SIEPMANN: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: -- in a discussion at the
site. It's better get it into the record in
writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the only day
I am not available is the day after
Thanksgiving and hopefully it'll be before
that.
MR. TERZIS: Yes, hopefully.
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BOARD ASST.: Were there any questions
that were asked, maybe we finished the
questions? I wasn't sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know whether
this is too soon for you, but I'm going to
unfortunately be leaving November 9th on a
Sunday, is it possible either this Saturday or
the following Saturday (inaudible)?
MEMBER OLIVA: This Saturday would be
better.
BOARD ASST.: This Saturday would be the
best.
MR. SIEPMANN: (Inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Is it possible for this
Saturday?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, then it needs
to be the eighth. Alright, so we'll set it
for the eighth and then make, you know, 10:007
Is 10:00 in the morning alright with you?
MR. TERZIS: Okay, that's fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's fine.
MR. TERZIS: I'll have nice fresh hot
coffee for you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Counsel, don't
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leave because we still have to ask anybody in
the audience if they have -- okay.
Is there anybody in the audience who
would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands -- is there any reason to
discuss anything with the Building Inspector
regarding this application?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No. No, I understand
it.
BOARD ASST.: I just want to ask one
question. There's nothing the applicant is
submitting in writing, right?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Only the letter,
but he doesn't really have to do it because
he's already informed us he's going to make
the appointment on November 8th at 10:00.
BOARD ASST.: But no other questions that
need to answered at this
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
sure.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
time for the record?
I just wanted to be
The only question,
let me ask one more question and that is at
the time that Mr. Buffus signed this, I'll
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hold it up for you, this building permit,
which is dated October 6, 1997, were these
plans amended in any way in reference to that
ceiling height?
MR. TERZIS: No, that was afterwards.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was
afterwards.
MR. TERZIS: Yeah, it was recommendation
of his supervisor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of my supervisor,
his supervisor. Oh --
MR. TERZIS: His supervisor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: His supervisor,
that was what you were trying to say before.
MR. TERZIS: Yes, exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
The ceiling height was amended to 11
feet, excuse me, it was lowered.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
feet.
was lowered.
Yeah, to just under
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
second floor ceiling or the third
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Attic.
leave it at that.
This is the
floor?
We'll just
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BOARD ASST.: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you,
MR. TERZIS: Thank you.
MR. SIEPMANN: Thank you, members of the
Board.
sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
questions, I'll make a motion closing the
hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6216 - Thomas and
Mary Irene Marron
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-116B and 280-124, based on an application
for a building permit with amended plans to
allow new construction instead of additions
and alterations to a dwelling as applied and
granted on 1/10/08 under ZBA #6110. The
Building Inspector's August 20, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval states that the former dwelling
was demolished, and a new single-family
dwelling construction is proposed. ZBA %6110
was a request for additions and alterations to
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an existing dwelling at less than the 15 feet
on one side, and ZBA #5797 was a request for
additions at less than 75 feet to the existing
bulkhead and adjacent to Jockey Creek, at 3125
Wells Avenue, Southold; CTM 70-4-10."
MR. MCGAHAN: Good morning. My name is
Dough McGahan. I operate Bay Creek Builders
in Cutchogue. I'm here on behalf of the
Marrons.
I came into this about six months ago
with the Matrons and since then I've learned
quite a bit of history behind this project
with you folks. I was handed the plans, the
original plans, and the permit and was ready
to start construction, which we did, and the
plans indicated new walls
of the house and almost a
structure with just parts
the existing remaining.
around three sides
completely new roof
of it -- partially
So we started demolition of the interior
and the exterior walls and got into some of
the other exterior walls and determined that
they had to come down because they were badly
rotted with termites or whatever. It was just
rotted and then work was stopped by the Town
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because
of the permit.
didn't get into
every aspect of
there was no demolition in the scope
I was unaware of that, I
the permit scope and question
it, but looking at the
blueprint seeing that the plans called for new
walls and new roof, I assumed that obviously
the old walls had to come down. We did
demolish all the walls right to the floor it
remains at the existing floor joists and
that's all that there is there now.
So the reason we're here, I believe, is
because (a) the demolition and (b) the setback
for the garage. Now, the garage the
foundation was put in exactly according to the
plans with all the dimensions according to the
plans; however, the plans were drawn, I guess,
out of scale or whatever, but when I had the
survey done after the foundation was in, I had
to have that done for the Building Department,
the foundation for the garage is 9 feet from
the line, whereas, on the plans it was 10
foot. Now, that property line is a slowly
diminishing lot, so apparently when the
architect did the math he didn't do his
hypotenuse right or something, but as it
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worked out the setback turned
all the dimensions according to
way it was instead of 10 and so
MEMBER DINIZIO: So it
a couple of variances to do
house --
out to be 9 with
the plan the
here we are.
looks like you had
some work on your
MR. MCGAHAN: That was before I got into
it and I got all the old copies from the
office and there's quite a bit of history
here, I see. You know, you went back and
forth from one story to one and a half story
and now we plan to go back to a single story
house, but with a steeper roof. The only
reason they want a steeper roof is because the
neighbors have a two-story house on the right
side and the neighbors on the left side are
currently planning a second story addition and
they felt their house would look dwarfed and
didn't want to spend $5- or $600,000.00 and
have the house look like a puny house in
between these other houses and also the
neighbor on the west side has these enormous
pine trees that they've asked if they could
cut them and she would just as soon have them
there and the needles get all over the roof of
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their house and it got almost two inches deep
with needles. So they figured a steeper roof
would wash the needles off the house cause the
trees aren't going anywhere, they're staying
where they are.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to go over
the application, just so we're clear, now I
mean you had some variances on this house, I
know it's not you in particular, but this
particular lot and during the course of
construction you found that it just wasn't
feasible for you to follow the renovation
path. Okay?
MR. MCGAHAN; The -- yeah. It turned out
to be, obviously -- I do the right thing, when
I see something that's deteriorated I can't
just cover it up. I had to do the right
thing. I didn't know I was going against the
-- there was absolutely no demolition spelled
out in the original permit, which seems odd to
me, but regardless.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, well I mean, you
know, again, it's still -- I don't think it's
a question of right or wrongdoing, it's a
situation you had to do something now --
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MR. MCGAHAN: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- which is a foundation
on the ground with the opportunity to build a
house. I think the only thing, looking
through the application, is
varies from the variance is
one foot.
MR. MCGAHAN:
that -- that
that you need that
Exactly and that's an
accessory structure, correct, that garage?
So is 9 foot the requirement.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I mean
regardless of that still, you know, you had a
variance there was some set criteria that
haven't been followed, now you need a variance
from the variance. I don't ask you to follow
the progression, I just ask you to bear with
me.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think that, you know,
certainly the other variances were thrown out
the window when you're looking at, you Know,
just footings and so I think you need to go
towards the reasons why. Basically, you're
building a new house and you need the
variances that you need. I think that's
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important that you should give us just -- I
understand that in there you followed -- well
you didn't really follow the Building
Inspector's plans because you're a foot out.
MR. MCGAHAN:
to the blueprints,
error apparently.
Yeah, we did it according
but the blueprints were in
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MR. MCGAHAN: So all the dimensions are
exactly as the plans had on them, but when we
had the foundation location done, it's a foot
closer to the line than was shown on the
plans.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so I think what
we should do is get on the record just what
the dimensions are.
MR. MCGAHAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, for as you would
like to have them. Okay, cause what we have -
our Notice of Disapproval just says you went
beyond the variance.
MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And, obviously, you
can't comply with those variances anymore so
we need to grant you another variance. I was
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a little taken aback by the fact that they
didn't do that. That they didn't just say
here you need variances, verify what it is
now, what you're asking for. So can you give
me the front yard, the side yard setbacks?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes, I can.
the
MEMBER DINIZIO:
survey?
MEMBER BINIZIO:
Do you have a copy of
Yes, I do. I do, but I
just want to basically get it on the record.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes. Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the date on
the survey you're using Mr. McGahan?
MR. MCGAHAN: This is the latest survey
which is dated September 15 -- no.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: September 15, 19947
MR. MCGAHAN: No, this was updated August
8th and then again August 11, 2008. This is
the August 11, 2008 revision.
BOARD ASST.:
Yes.
MR. MCGAHAN:
Yeah, that's what we have.
The side yard setback on
the east side of the property is all the
existing house and that's 15 foot 6 at the
front and 15 foot 7 at the rear, the water
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side. On the opposite, the west side of the
property, which is existing, the house is 12
foot to the house corner and 12 foot 8 to the
new concrete foundation, which is towards the
front of the existing house. In front of that
the detached garage, the rear corner is 13
feet from the property line and, due to the
diminishing lot property line, it's 9 foot at
the front corner. It's 63-1/2 feet from the
road to the front corner of the garage.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So that's the front
yard, right?
MR. MCGAHAN:
Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What's the rear yard?
MR. MCGAHAN: The rear yard is, from the
rock revetment to the house is 69 feet. Well,
there's actually an extension of 8 foot 4, the
existing house extends out. So it's about 60
feet, you know, a little over 60 feet to the
rock revetment and then another 40 feet to the
waterline.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now we see some,
excuse me, Jim, we see some concrete slabs
over there, are those all inclusive of that
foundation as it exists right now?
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MR. MCGAHAN: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Excuse me,
Jim. Go ahead.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's okay. Well, I
defer to you, Gerry, on this. You know, the
Notice of Disapproval just doesn't match what
this gentleman's asking for.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, it doesn't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, I
personally think what we should ask Mr.
McGahan to do today, since he's all dressed up
and ready to go, is go back to the Building
Department while this hearing continues and
have them give you an amended Notice of
Disapproval if they would do it today, please,
for August 20th one indicating all of those
issues that you just mirrored in reference to
setbacks so that we have it pointblank well
done and as it relates to that survey that you
just went over.
MR. MCGAHAN: Is the only question the 9
foot or is it the 12 foot, the existing 12
foot?
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I want to
know from him. Honestly, when I read it last
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night I said you'd be walking into a trap if I
didn't do what I just did, quite honestly,
because we would grant you a variance, you
would look at those setbacks -- it's not
anyone's fault other than there's two
different people, two sets of eyes, looking at
this thing and you'd be back before us again.
I know this might take a little more time, but
I think you'd be well served by verifying that
you don't need any further variances for a new
building. That's
getting.
MR. MCGAHAN:
basically what you're
Right. So can you just
clarify what you'd want me to have the
Disapproval --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, those setbacks
that you just gave us --
MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean if you just show
them to him, you know, he will -- I think it's
12 foot and it may be 9 foot on the --
MR. MCGAHAN: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Then that should be put
in the determination.
MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: And then,
he's okay with the rear yard and side
setbacks, after he looks at the Code,
height --
MR. MCGAHAN: Well, I think the Code
requires 75 feet; isn't that correct?
I mean, if
yard
the
MEMBER DINIZIO:
need a variance for
MR. MCGAHAN:
granted.
BOARD ASST.:
He didn't deny it
setback.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
BOARD ASST.: He
side yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Sure. Yeah, but you may
that.
That was previously
Yeah, we have the variance.
for the prior bulkhead
Right.
only denied it for the
Right.
is.
BOARD ASST.: Cause that's what ZBA %6110
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: He just --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I'm just
concerned, you know, I agree that -- I just --
what does this do, this determination do to
those variances? I mean if you didn't follow
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the whole variance, do you have a variance?
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know what I mean?
I just need you to be specific.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it inconsistent,
is what --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not saying that we
wouldn't grant the same setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no, but I mean
MEMBER DINIZIO: But --
BOARD ASST.: You want it in writing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything that the
Building Department construes to be
inconsistent should be mirrored within the
aspect of this updated disapproval.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that you don't
have to come back and, again, that's why I
asked you if the cement area was inclusive of
this present situation here.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes. This is the way it
exists. So if he has to disapprove the two --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Whatever he has to
do --
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MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, whatever. Let him
look at the plan, let him deny it as if it
were a brand new application.
BOARD ASST.: Right, and mention the
setback numbers, he doesn't have any numbers
in there for the setbacks.
MR. MCGAHAN: Alright, regarding the
demolition, is that -- is that part of his
disapproval?
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's (inaudible).
MR. MCGAHAN: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean the demolition
would have been that we would be granting a
variance to the variance.
MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, but I mean in this
respect I think it --
MR. MCGAHAN: You know, what it is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, before you
leave, any questions over here before Mr.
McGahan comes back?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to be sure
that what you're doing is the only -- other
than that side yard setback of 1 foot for the
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garage and I understand the 10, you're now
proposing a demo of the existing house on an
enlarged foundation as per previous plan?
MR. MCGAHAN: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You are changing it from
a two-story to a one-story with a differently
pitched roof --
BOARD ASST.:
MR. MCGAHAN:
Right.
No. It was always a one-
story but the previous -- they applied for a
one and a half story, but it's going to be a
single floor residence.
MEMBER OLIVA: Then that should be noted.
MEMBER WEISNLAN:
that's noted --
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. MCGAHAN:
We need to make sure
It should be noted.
Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you are actually,
what you are doing now is rebuilding the house
in place and in kind, more or less.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: With the same square
footage as originally proposed.
MEMBER OLIVA: Just the roof is going to
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change.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just the roof.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes, that's all.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now the sona tubes that
are in the (inaudible) on the (inaudible)
deck?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, now I'm looking to
see if the deck is noted on -- I don't believe
the deck is noted on this survey.
MR. MCGAHAN: That is correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That needs to be
incorporated.
MR. MCGAHAN: Okay, on the survey.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. MCGAHAN: It was on the original
plans submitted by Garrett Strang, the deck,
but before --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because that's a
different setback then from the water.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's where they
came up with that 46.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. MCGAHAN: The piers are on the
survey. The concrete sona tubes are on the
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survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but they
don't know how far they're going to protrude
over the top of those sona tubes, so therefore
maybe you want to sketch that in.
MR. MCGAHAN: A dotted line where the
proposed deck will be?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, again, you want to
have to have the setback on that, too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You want -- yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time,
please.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Leave yourself some
room.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hold on. That's why I'm
proposing that you include that deck because
that's going to be a different setback than
that 8.4 feet on the house. To the steps --
MR. MCGAHAN: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- okay, that's one
setback from the rock revetment. You're going
to have a deck setback as well. If you don't
put that down and you build it, you're going
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to be back here.
MR. MCGAHAN: Right. It was on the
original --
MEMBER WEISMAN: So make sure the Notice
reflects the setback of the proposed deck from
the rock revetment.
MR. MCGAHAN: Regardless of the previous
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right.
MR. MCGAHAN: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We want to know what it
is you're going to build. What's happening to
the chimney?
MR. MCGAHAN: That's going to be existing
and raised up probably three or four feet to
the new ridgeline.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, but that's
remaining?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Okay, I just want
to know how much --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Unfortunately,
Doug, I coughed when you said this is a one-
story house?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
house --
MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
roofline and that is it?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
This is a one-story
-- with a steep
So those doghouse
dormers are only to the attic; is that
correct?
MR. MCGAHAN: That's correct. That's
just for road appeal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Alright, anybody else a question here?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, this is just for my
own clarification to let me understand. The
existing foundation -- was there ever a
variance granted for the foundation at that
time? It was a nonconforming foundation.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay and -- but is that,
are you saying, that still holds even though
the house above it
MR. MCGAHAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
is demolished?
Yes.
Or do you need a new
variance for it as though the house were built
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from scratch as though there were no
foundation?
MR. MCGAHAN: No, the foundation is
existing with additions put on around it.
MEMBER SIMON: So the existing foundation
counts as -- so therefore this is a renovation
and not a rebuilding from scratch because of
the retention of the old foundation; is that
correct?
MR. MCGAHAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
That's correct.
Okay.
It's a demo.
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I comment? I think
you gotta be clear on that, the Building
Inspector is considering this to be new
construction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, that's what I'm
wondering about.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So, right. So all --
MR. MCGAHAN: From the foundation up, the
existing floor joists remain and --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, no but the
existing -- we do have a nonconforming
setback, alright, and once you tear that down
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you need a variance for it. Okay? Now we
based our variances on the fact that the house
was going to be still existing. The house no
longer exists.
MR. MCGAHAN:
floor.
Just the foundation and
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and so he's saying
new construction of a single-family dwelling.
He's saying that this is
MR. MCGAHAN: So it
existing foundation?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
application to us, honestly,
new construction,
all the setbacks.
MR. MCGAHAN:
new.
should say the
So your
should be for a
okay, and let him look at
Alright.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and show him the
height of the roof and everything.
MR. MCGAHAN: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Then we have -- we'll
have multiple degrees of variances. We're not
going to go back. We grant the variance based
on one thing, which is existing house. We
said it's okay as long as it's existing, but
it's not anymore.
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MR. MCGAHAN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So just give us the
numbers as though this were being built on a
new house. Don't assume that --
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't assume that your
existing setbacks apply any longer.
MR. MCGAHAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I mean we both
know there's a house there --
MR. MCGAHAN: I'll go to the Building
Department and get another disapproval. I
can't promise that's going to happen any time
today, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just come
back and tell us if it doesn't.
MR. MCGAHAN: Okay, come back this
morning?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Would you sign the one
that's in the file? I can't reach the file.
Just so you know who it is
first one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that you're -- the
I was going to give
you the 2006 decision, but -- the 2005 rather,
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but I don't think it was granted for file on
1/30/06. I don't think it would do any good,
but this way we put it to bed and you don't
see us anymore.
MR. MCGAHAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We'll
adjourn this hearing for about an hour. I'll
make a motion.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
CONTINUATION OF HEARING %6216
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for
getting this, we're sorry you tied up a whole
morning doing this.
MR. MCGAHAN: That's quite alright. I
was thankful that the Building Department
would do it on such short notice today and
were very {inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In reviewing this
do you feel it meets all the setbacks that you
have reviewed with us?
MR. MCGAHAN: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
this Notice of Disapproval
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based upon a
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decision from this Board you feel, as a
builder in this town, that you will be okay
assuming this Board is so inclined to grant
this application?
MR. MCGAHAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions. We were
pretty clear about -- clearing this up, I was
surprised.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I guess you wouldn't be
here right now if this had been written in the
first place.
MR. MCGAHAN: Yeah, well live and learn.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's one of
the advantages though of having the hearings
during the day cause you can zip over there
and back again.
MR. MCGAHAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
great.
I'd be sleeping right now.
No questions. It's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'll make a
motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
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(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6209 - Judge and E. Costello
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-18, based on the Building Inspector's
August 4, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a new dwelling (under construction}
for which a third-story is proposed for use as
an office rather than attic space, at 13007
Oregon Road, Cutchogue; CTM 83-2-11.14."
Mr. Cuddy?
MR. CUDDY: Good morning. I represent
Michael Judge and Ellen Costello. They have a
3.4 acre parcel on the Sound in Cutchogue in
R-80 district. They have a house that's the
same exact size as the Building Department
gave them approval
BOARD ASST.:
I'm sorry. If you
bit.
MR. CUDDY:
that better?
BOARD ASST.:
MR. CUDDY:
for, but --
We're not picking you up,
could move it up a little
Move it up a little bit? Is
That's better.
They have a house in
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Cutchogue that is the same exact house that
they have a building permit for. It's 32-1/2
feet high. They have a two-story house with
an attic that they finished and they finished
it for an office. The reason they finished it
for an office is that both Michael Judge and
Ellen Costello, and I sort of hesitate to say
it, are investment advisors and they work a
good deal from their home.
The second floor contains a small alcove
that Ellen Costello will use. It has a
computer in it and has a desk for her.
Michael Judge needs to have some place in his
home where he can have an office, where he can
store his records, his books and it is
entirely an office. It was built -- the
architect was from Massachusetts, the
architect checked with New York State, as
often happens, said you can have a third floor
if you have a sprinkler. This is sprinkled.
It's not --
this point. The
square feet. It
it's basically finished at
size of the room is 880
is -- it has some bookcases
in it, it'll have a desk in it and it's to be
used only, absolutely only as an office. It's
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not -- has no plumbing in it. There's nothing
to indicate that it's to be used as a bedroom
or any other residential use except for his
office. I think having the sprinklers does
meet the State Code. I think in this case
that the -- certainly the standards that we
apply the substantial variance is not there
because it's the same house, it's the same
size attic as it was before, it hasn't changed
at all. It certainly is not going to affect
the environment in any way. It's not going to
change anything and it's not going to affect
the community, there's actually no house even
nearby close to this house.
I think this is very similar to the
decision that this Board made in June of 2007,
the Sanford decision, where you allowed a 777
foot attic to be used in a similar fashion. I
would ask you on that basis to allow this.
Again, it is solely to be used as an office
and no other use.
MEMBER SIMON: So it satisfies the
definition of -- it becomes a third-story
simply because it has the sprinkler system?
MR. CUDDY: I think it becomes a --
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MEMBER SIMON:
mentioned the
in the Code.
Because of use, you
sprinkler system as the trigger
MR. CUDDY: Well, I think under the State
Code if you have a sprinkler system, you're
allowed to have a third floor. That's what I
was alluding to.
MEMBER SIMON: If you have a sprinkler
system, you're allowed to have a third floor
it doesn't have --
MEMBER WEISMAN: As a right.
MEMBER SIMON: As a right, it doesn't
mean that it entitles you to a third floor,
it's a requirement for a third floor.
MR. CUDDY: No.
MEMBER SIMON: It's a requirement by the
code.
MR. CUDDY: No, it doesn't but you can,
if you have a third floor, you need a
sprinkler system. That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: So you can't build your
argument for the office --
MR. CUDDY: No, I'm not saying that. I'm
just saying that it meets that requirement.
That's all.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but it, on the other
hand, requires a variance because it doesn't
meet -- because it is a third floor.
MR. CUDDY: It is as opposed to the 2-1/2
stories that Southold (inaudible), that's
correct.
MEMBER SIMON:
basically that this
And you're argument is
is a minimal use third
floor, but nonetheless a third floor.
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. No further
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Hi, Mr. Cuddy. So this
office is already installed? The reflected
(inaudible) plans, the sheetrock --
MR. CUDDY: Yes, that's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So we have the finished
plans before us. It's a very comprehensive
sprinkler system. You know, the only thing
that I wonder about is why is it, knowing
fully well they have not changed their
professions, that they were going to want to
be having a home office, was this not part of
all the many other variances that you brought
before us that were granted? The swimming
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pool and so forth --
MR. CUDDY: I brought -- I didn't want to
interrupt you, I'm sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. It was really a
question because clearly this was planned from
the beginning.
MR. CUDDY: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
It was not.
Well, then give us the
history of when they decided that attic space
was going to become office space.
MR. CUDDY: Yes. The variances earlier
that were granted by this Board in June of
this year had to do simply with a swimming
pool and a swimming pool house or a pool house
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. CUDDY: -- in the side
yard because
there was a question of whether it was a side
yard or not. During the course of
construction, Judge and Costello (inaudible)
were in New York City. They were moved to
Boston, then they were moved to Chicago. They
presently are based in Chicago. They are
hopeful that most of the year, a good part of
the year, they can live in this house. During
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the course of their moving around, this house
was being built. At that time and not at the
beginning at all, they then decided that they
would like to have the ability to have an
office here because they'd been moved all over
the place and this is just within a three-year
period. So it wasn't something that they knew
in the beginning cause I asked the same
question, why didn't you do it this way?
That's what happened, so it was not a
deliberate act on their part to try and avoid
something. They finally decided that they
would like to have a place where they could
come to and they can have their office there
because they're going all over the place,
that's how it happened.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that's perfectly
sensible, the only thing that I think this
Board finds problematic in situations like
this is that it's after the fact. It would
have been, I think, a lot better had they made
that decision, come to you, come to us for a
variance before they went ahead and did it.
MR. CUDDY: I -- I --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now we're stuck with one
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more situation where
It's done.
MR. CUDDY: I --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
room for discussion,
it is or it isn't.
MR. CUDDY:
but I --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
frustrating.
MR. CUDDY: --
it's already as-built.
So there's no wiggle
there's nothing. Either
I understand that totally,
It's a little
I would point out to you
the reason, and that's why I gave you that
explanation, that I don't think there was any
deliberateness whatsoever in trying to avoid
the requirements, the Town requirements. As I
said, they had an out-of-state architect. The
builder, Mr. Beckman, is here and can explain
to you that even he checked to see if it was
okay and he thought it was okay. So there was
no willfulness on their part to say, now if we
build this, we're going to get this and they
understand that entirely and I explored that
with them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. CUDDY: I think, at this point, they
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certainly are absolutely committed to having
it an office use. It's not -- there's nothing
else that they can use it for. I mean if they
used it -- if they just stopped now and used
it for storage, they use it for storage or
they go up and see the Sound. By the way,
it's the only place in the house that they can
see the Sound.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's pretty well treed,
I think.
MEMBER SIMON: If I may make a
that's the (inaudible) in this case,
is a recurring problem and we are
people on the Board feel this way,
comment
but this
-- some
our counsel
who isn't able to be here right now, certainly
does, is that we evaluate these cases and we
get many, many where people change their minds
for one reason or another to make decisions on
the basis of intention and motivation and I'm
not sure exactly how we can tidy this up and
it is a matter of your credibility, which is
pretty high as far as I can see, in this case,
but it is one of a fairly large number of
cases of after-thoughts or what looks like
after-thoughts and how do we adjudicate them
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by saying well whom do we find credible and
whom do we not find credible. That's just a
statement, I would encourage to make their
decisions sooner or at least give us a good
solid record and not just the testimony of the
attorney at the hearing to say, look this is
the way it was and (inaudible) --
MR. CUDDY: I can certainly supply you
with affidavits from both of them saying what
I said because my testimony here is from the
conversations with them and --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, I understand that.
MR. CUDDY: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's helpful to
have the story -- circumstances in writing;
however, the basis upon which a determination
is made or a finding is made is essentially a
balancing test. That's the law and that's
what we have to follow.
So I don't have any further questions.
It's very clear and straight forward.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My statement is
very easy, I just want to inspect it.
MR. CUDDY: I understand that and I think
that on this Saturday and I asked Mr. Beckman,
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that can be done. I received a telephone call
from the homeowner.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Great, thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You want to set it up?
MR. CUDDY: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: Yes, this Saturday between
l0 and 11.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This Saturday?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll write it down.
MEMBER OLIVA: I just get frustrated in
the amount of applications we have and receive
that's already built and then you come to us
and ask for a variance for it. I mean, all
these third -- our Code says no three stories.
The New York Code writes that law it's fine if
you sprinkle it, but our Code doesn't say it.
Now, if you're building in this town I would
suggest that you advise your client or new
clients to check the Town Code first before
you start building. I'm tired of really
giving okays to things that have already been
built.
MR. CUDDY: And I understand that and
that's why --
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MEMBER OLIVA:
Charlie, you know that.
MR. CUDDY: -- I think
asked the Board to consider
It's very frustrating,
the only thing I
is that we're not
expanding the house, we're just
that could be made of this area
expanding it. I mean certainly,
taking the use
and perhaps
people, as we
talked about before and I understand it's sort
of a d~j~ vu all over again type of thing, but
that people can go up to the site and sit
there and look out. They can store things
there. Here's somebody who's saying I'm going
to put a desk, I'm going to have things there
so I can use it. It's not a living-type area,
it's an office-type area and that's the only
defense that I can give to that and I
understand your problem.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: How is the ceiling
height up there? Does it meet state Code?
MR. CUDDY: I think it does, I don't
think that there's a problem with the ceiling
height.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could you tell -- by any
definition it would be a room? It would be
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livable space? (Inaudible). I mean I look at
it a little differently. I think that this
house could have existed for a hundred years
and you could still be coming before us asking
us to put an office up there. You know, I
mean the house could be built, you could have
a CO and you wouldn't need any variances
whatsoever other than if you wanted to do
something up on that third story that the Town
doesn't allow, but it allows you to ask for a
variance for and, you know, I don't think your
intentions were in any way -- whatever you
intend or whatever the applicant intended or
the couple who owns this house intended have
any weight as far as I'm concerned.
I'm concerned more about whether you can
get in and out of there safely, whether it
meets the State Code for safety and fire and,
you know, electrical, assuming that it does,
and you know, I just think if it was built a
hundred years ago we could still be here with
them asking for a third story.
So that's all I have to say.
MR. CUDDY: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: One quick question, is
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this heated? I presume it's heated.
MR. CUDDY: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're
standing there, is there anybody else who
would like to speak for or against this
application?
Okay, seeing no hands, are you requesting
affidavits from the applicants regarding their
intended use of this space that Mr. Cuddy
offered, do you want it or don't you want it?
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Frankly, I don't need
I don't need it.
I'm sure the testimony
reflects the conversation accurately and I
don't need it. It's not necessary for me.
MEMBER SIMON: I concur with that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Mr.
Cuddy, and we will see your applicants between
10 and 11 on Saturday.
Thank you.
MR. CUDDY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion closing the
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hearing, reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6213 - Helen and Peter Louca
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-122A and 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's amended August 8, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning additions and
alterations to the existing dwelling, which
create a new nonconformance and increase
degrees of existing nonconforming setbacks
with regard to a single side yard at less than
10 feet and total side yard setbacks at less
than 25 feet on this 10,454 square foot
parcel. Location of Property: 475 Miriam
Road, Mattituck; CTM 99-1-32."
Yes, Ms. Rivera.
MS. RIVERA: Just a correction, it's 475
Miriam Road.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, I'm sorry.
MS. RIVERA: Christine Rivera for Peter
and Helen Louca on this variance. On the
model the green is existing and the red is
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
proposed and they're proposing to extend over
with a narrow deck as the second story their
bedroom now, this would be a master bedroom.
Of the bedroom will be a deck with a cover on
top and it's causing the side yard setback
variance because the existing building is
nonconforming. They're going to add a second
story balcony, a three foot balcony, which
then reduces the side yard setback to 19.33
square feet, I'm sorry, 19.33 feet as opposed
to the existing 23 square feet.
BOARD ASST.: Excuse me the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Try again, it's
this one.
BOARD ASST.: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. RIVERA: So basically they're going
over the existing house footprint of the house
and we're adding a deck as a space over this
on the waterside of the house.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, this house as far as
I can figure out is a fairly narrow house.
It's 50 feet wide --
MS. RIVERA:
MEMBER SIMON:
MS. RIVERA:
Correct.
The lot
Correct.
is 50
feet wide --
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MEMBER SIMON: -- and the house as far as
I can calculate is about 27 feet wide?
MS. RIVERA: Approximately 27 feet wide
as it exists now.
MEMBER SIMON:
As it exists, not
including the balcony and then the balcony is
how wide, three and a half feet?
MS. RIVERA: 3.8 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: 3.8 feet second story
balcony.
MS. RIVERA: Second story balcony.
MEMBER SIMON: So it would make the house
essentially 30 feet wide ~otal including the
balcony. Okay, well that is -- that seems to
be the kind of situation in which the
neighbors might very well have approval or
disapproval on that, but it's precisely the
kind of thing that should come before us
because of the unusual circumstances given the
narrowness of the lot.
I don't have any further questions, I
would wait to hear if there are questions from
others on that.
MS. RIVERA: The balcony is just to have
access, they're putting in French sliding
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glass doors which are
balcony is actually 7-1/2
approximately.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MS. RIVERA: Hi.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
6 foot wide and so the
feet by 3-1/2 feet
Uh-huh. Alright.
Hi, Chris.
The balcony is going to
be built on the side yard that has the Bilco
door in it, correct?
MS. RIVERA: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well that side
yard is already so small where the Bilco door
in it that it's really not an effectively
useful side yard for emergency access anyway,
frankly.
MS. RIVERA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Since it's going to be
positioned pretty much where the Bilco door
is, you wouldn't really even be -- well, I'm
not sure exactly,
MS. RIVERA:
the Bilco door.
I'd have to look at the --
Essentially it's right over
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is right over, so
basically it's dead-dog space under there
anyway. There is no, other than just
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clearance for being able to open the door and
lift furniture in and out of the Bilco door.
You're actually sitting on an odd-shaped lot,
but you do have -- you're not reducing the
side yard on the opposite side of the house.
MS. RIVERA: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the second story.
MS. RIVERA: The
going over the existing footprint
So this is just really
second story addition is
of the
house.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
of the balcony.
MS. RIVERA:
The (inaudible) section
Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and you're adding
the porches to the front and the back.
MS. RIVERA: Right, there is an existing
porch now.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MS. RIVERA: Approximately 6 feet by 8,
we're just actually (inaudible) extending that
with two gabled dormers over the windows.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Okay. I don't have any
No, I don't have any
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questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No,
any questions either.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
in conformance?
MS. RIVERA:
addition is, as
I don't think I have
No questions.
The roof height is
Oh yes. In fact, the new
you can see, lower than the
existing ridge roof that is now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see you've done a
much better job on that. This one is not
white. Thank you for bringing that in, it's
very helpful for making a presentation.
Is there anybody who would like to speak
for or against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6208 - Vincent Larocca
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
15, based on the Building Inspector's May 30,
2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning as-built
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accessory structures in the front yard rather
than the code-defined rear yard, at 185 West
Creek Avenue, Cutchogue; CTM 103-13-22.1."
Mr. Larocca?
MR. LAROCCA: Good morning. I guess as
I'm here for as-built accessory structures
it's clear that I have misunderstood what my
property rights were and the unique limits of
two front yards, but what I hope I can show
and I hope you've seen is that we have not
misunderstood the importance of being
responsible neighbors in taking into
consideration the impact of what we do on
others at every step of the way in whatever
structure we put in.
I'll just -- I'll try not to rehash what
I've already presented in the application, but
I do want to stress a couple of points along
that line. We have spent a substantial amount
of time and money to ensure that what we've
done has been a complement and in no way
infringed on our community, as we should have,
by the way, I think that's our obligation to
do that. By a couple of examples, the shed
and the gazebo are set substantially back from
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both the road and our neighbors' property
lines and substantial plantings are around
both of those.
The playhouse I purchased up front, was
purchased, it's only 60 square feet, it's only
7 feet high at it's maximum and I had the
playhouse -- the guys customize it so to make
the door a little higher, which is still only
5 feet which I have banged my noggin on more
than once going in and out of, to make sure
again that the footprint was iow and
unobtrusive to my neighbors. Another example,
in doing the screening the last thing we
wanted to do, in all deference to the
Hamptons, is we did not want it to look like a
Hamptons hedge, so we worked very hard to sort
of make it a natural landscaping that created
a screen without that typical hedge all around
your yard.
A little detail on the placement of the
gazebo as was well covered the last time I was
before the Board on another hearing, Pequash
Avenue is a relatively active road with a
decent amount of road noise on it. So we did
orient the gazebo closer to West Creek Avenue
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than Pequash because West Creek Avenue is
substantially quieter and we wanted, when we
retire to the gazebo, to have a little more
peace and quiet than the road noise that's
projected off of Pequash. Having said that,
we still made sure that we placed it such that
it's back to the rear of the house that it's
adjacent to and also have screened it
extensively between it and the road and
probably would continue to do that because
that half of the yard, I think we're pretty
much there, but we'll continue to make that
remain as part of a rear yard. So that whole
area between the gazebo and the front has been
screened in, probably will continue that as
needed to make that private for our own
privacy.
The playhouse, I already mentioned, as I
mentioned we actually had it customized so
that it would be small and quaint. I have to
stress that is important to us because tha~ is
our driveway and we don't have a gazage. So
even though it's only 60 square feet it's a
very important use to us and having said that
I acknowledge it is only five feet from our
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neighbor's property line and about 45 feet
from the road.
Now, I've already shown you the pictures
of the screened in, when you're standing in
the road, you don't even see it when you're
facing directly at it. There's history though
why that's placed there. Originally, my lot,
which was vacant, was part of the parcel to
the house next door, now the Schaublein
property. So that was all owned by one
individual and there was a circular driveway
there. So the circular driveway -- we
actually shared, if you will, the circular
driveway and then the property line sort of
cut through the center of it. The previous
person who lived there wanted to widen the
driveway and so what they did was, just like I
have now an L-shaped large U in front of my
half of the circular driveway, the neighbor,
now the Schaublein property, but not him, the
previous owner, pulled out the same yews that
mirrored that on their side and extended the
width of the driveway. So sort of moving --
taking away the privacy between us and moving
it closer and then she put up this fence that
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someone actually over in the Hamptons sold her
it's this wonderful English fence that would
be so special and whatnot and it really
wasn't, but she really was intending to do the
right thing so she removed all the yews and
put in that fence and then what I did was I,
after she removed them I planted a few more
yews along the property line to reclose off
and recreate sort of a privacy line between us
on the detached shared driveway thing. Then,
after I did that I put my shed back up against
the fence that she had put there.
When Mr. Schaublein was going for his
variance, as part of that he determined the
property line was such that that fence was
actually on my side and this spring he removed
a boat he had been parking there and now the
fence at this time was disintegrating. On my
property line, fine. I removed it and then I
iu~nediately planted an additional hedge
between my shed and my neighbor's yard. I
could show you that now. I'll give you three
photos that will make that clear, if I haven't
been particularly articulate about it.
As you see photo 10, what that's just
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showing is that's where you could see where
there was a driveway and then it's just dirt,
that's where my neighbor -- that had been a
yew that went all the way across there and
then back into the property so it would be
towards the (inaudible) you see there. So
that was the mirror, that was what was taken
out. If you go to %11, it'll show you the
fence that my neighbor had put there after she
did that and then, as I said, I extended the
yews from where you see the right side of the
fence to join with the rest of the yews and
again she meant the right thing, but the thing
just -- she was sold a bill of goods it was a
hunk of junk.
So I took that out this spring when my
neighbor determined it was on my line and he
moved his boat away from there so that I could
plant there and it could live and I put in as
you see standing on West Creek Avenue oriented
in about the center of my neighbor's driveway
and the picture points directly at my little
shed that's behind there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the
function of the playhouse?
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MR. LAROCCA: The playhouse, the most
important function is I store all the
different garbage recycling things in there
and because I'm not here full-time and it's
just the two of us, they can sit in there for
a little while. So it's secure. I also keep
bicycles in there because it's by the
driveway. So the principle storages are the
bicycles and the garbage so it's important to
us. It's small, but it serves an important
function and now I've explained to you why
it's situated where it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll just ask you
one question and then (inaudible). Is there
any intent or any possibility of placing any
of these structures in a conforming locaton?
MR. LAROCCA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there any
possibility, and I'm just throwing this out to
you --
MR. LAROCCA: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- is there
possibility of making them a little more
conforming without a tremendous amount of work
on your part?
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MR. LAROCCA: Well, it would cause a
tremendous amount of work, it would in that,
and again I don't know if you've all gone out
to something like this, we have worked very
hard -- you know, I hate to be the closet
designed, but I worked very hard to build my
whole landscaping around where these
structures are. Nothing was just thrown in
willy-nilly. I mean, again, I hope it shows
that. The only one I could understand
somebody saying was gee why is that little one
so close to the neighbor. Well, I've
explained to you the history of that and now
as I won't repeat myself, but that's where my
driveway was. I didn't choose to put it there
and it's part of our, I will acknowledge that
is part of our little country fantasy eight
years ago we want our driveway and our path up
to the house and we didn't, again, as you can
see from the size of my house, we wanted
something that kind of fit and leave the trees
there and people come by and they can't
believe the house is a new house. Hopefully
not cause of its condition, but hopefully
cause of its style and its size. It's very
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small and it was meant to
oh look that's been there.
country house.
just be drive by .~Dd
Oh, look a mlttl~
So its all set in spots where it would be
a big deal to resituate them and it's not
cheap to move them.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You indicated that
you said it was five feet from the property'
line?
MR. LAROCCA:
the property line.
I know it's five feet from
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, cause I think
on the original you had four, so I'll change
that to five. Oh, I see it is a five. I sang
the four on the part closest to West Creek
Avenue and now I see a five over on the
opposite side.
MR. LAROCCA: It's 24 feet from the
property line, about 45 feet from the road.'
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
BOARD ASST.: It's should be (inaudiblei
setback variance?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No,' it's in the
front yard. Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, I did, you know,
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it's a garbage condo. It's not really
anything more than that. I don't think you --
do you have any electric in it?
MR. LAROCCA: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Water?
MR. LAROCCA: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No heat, stove or
something like that?
MR. LAROCCA: No. No tenant.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So basically you walk
out there after you're done for the day and
you put your garbage in there and it makes it
a little easier for you to set it out in the
street when (inaudible) comes along and --
MR. LAROCCA: I drive it up to the dumps.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, it's a little
easier for you there.
MR. LAROCCA: It's easier and it's
secure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
MR. LAROCCA: When I'm not there, you
know, I'm a worry-wart and I don't want my
garbage ripped up, you know, all over the
place.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
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MR. LAROCCA: When it snows and stuff
when it's not --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I mean I'm just
trying to --
MR. LAROCCA: I get it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- hear what detriment
to the Town it would be to have this thing
next to your driveway. I don't see any. Is
there one shed here that's not the focus of
this application or are all of these sheds --
MR. LAROCCA: Ail four. I have two
sheds. I'm calling it the playhouse cause
that's what it was named on my invoice to
separate them, a gazebo and a hot tub.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, so the gazebo is
the same thing. You know, it's more than
principle setbacks away from any property line
and there it is. It's not something you use
everyday.
MR. LAROCCA: No, but I would like to run
electric to that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so you want a
light bulb for that?
MR. LAROCCA: Yes and a fan.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Is it screened?
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MR. LAROCCA: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What about the other
shed, I mean it looks like that meets
principle setbacks also?
MR. LAROCCA: Exceeds, yes. That's my
lawnmower and all my gardening equipment.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and that's
traditionally along that
back yard.
MR. LAROCCA: Yes.
functional back yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
street that is your
I mean that is my
No driveway on that
side, no entry by any cars or anything?
MR. LAROCCA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's still in the
front yard.
MR. LAROCCA: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you know, yeah,
it's functioning as the -- it could be in the
side yard, too,
mean, yeah.
So -- okay,
if you look at the patio and I
that's all I have.
MR. LAROCCA: I would like to also give
you more on the lines of consistence with the
character of the community. On West Creek
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Avenue alone, just on West Creek Avenue there
are five accessory structures in the front
yards. Ail of which are larger than my 60
foot (sic) structure. So it's very consistent
with the community and in fact, (inaudible)
would you give them Exhibit A?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I stop you, you just
said 60 foot, is that --
MR. LAROCCA: Square feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, square feet, okay.
MR. LAROCCA: 60 square feet, so I'm
pretty confident from eyeballing the other
ones that the other ones are all, except for
one, all have car garages.
not.
If you see the first,
oriented oddly, if you're
gazebo and you're looking
and you look one house to
Mine is obviously
this one is kind of
standing in my
across the street
the left of that you
will see there's a home and it's got a garage
that is -- it's not in the (inaudible) it's
about two feet from the property line and
closer to the road than mine is. Again, no
complaints, but it's very consistent. So if
you look right across the street there's a car
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garage that's even closer to its adjacent
property line and I believe closer to the
road.
MEMBER
lot?
DINIZIO: Is that a waterfront
MR. LAROCCA: Yes, it is and that
explains why there are so many, although some
of them are on my side, that explains why
there are so many on West Creek Road, but in
terms of the character of the drive down the
road, for those that aren't expert in the law,
just the character of the road it's not
unusual. What's that 60 foot guy doing there;
it doesn't stick out.
Also the next one I'll show you is 2900
Pequash and, again, I have no complaint,
that's my neighbor on Pequash. So if you're
standing on Pequash looking at my house,
there's a house to the left of my yard and
that -- they have a garage that's five feet
from my property line and they have no
screening, that's fine. I bought and I put in
the screening between mine. So directly
across the street there's one a couple of feet
from the property line. Directly adjacent to
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me there's one five feet off the property
line, my property line.
Then the third one is just down the road,
there's another property. This one you have
to turn sideways to see West Creek, but again
they have a structure that's right on the
road. I have no idea what the history there
is and, again, it's five feet from the
property line and those are all car garages.
So they're both taller and bigger than mine
and lastly I'd just like to incorporate by
reference the February 28, 2008 ZBA ruling for
my neighbor Schaublein which has now an
allowance for a bi-level parking facility just
20 feet off of Pequash property line and my 80
square footer is further set back off the road
than that is.
Any questions on that before I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you touch on
the hot tub?
MR. LAROCCA: I did not.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
MR. LAROCCA: Would you like me to?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, the hot tub
is on a ground level patio.
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MR. LAROCCA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that is also
MR.
yard.
CHAIRMAN
yard?
LAROCCA: Yeah, that's in a front
GOEHRINGER:
It's in a front
MR. LAROCCA: That's what the Building
Department tells me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
MR. LAROCCA: It's on my cement patio.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How long has that
That's been there since
been there?
MR. LAROCCA:
'01.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. LAROCCA: They've all been there with
the exception of the gazebo which went in in
'06. I'll give you the exact dates, but
they've all been there over five years now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. LAROCCA: Again, I won't rehash the
screening thing, but I have extensively
screened that back that without a telephoto
lens I don't see how you could even see it.
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you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible} yet.
MR. LAROCCA: Not quite, but --
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) then I'll ask
MR. LAROCCA: Okay. With one exception,
I have not gone to involve any of my neighbors
to step up because it has, as may have been
evidenced from last time, it's just gotten to
the least very uncomfortable with some of
direct neighbors that I have now and I was
say
the
not interested in
neighbors in this,
fiasco.
embroiling any other
what I'm going to call,
However, I would like and I'm not
speaking for them and some of them are here,
so I'm not putting any words in their mouths
as it relates to mine, but I would like to
incorporate by reference into the record that
at the Schaublein hearing six neighbors, all
of which are within 500 feet of my yard, have
positively affirmed that they support
structures that are both larger and of more
intense use than any of the structures here
today. I'm not reading any more or less into
that, but there were six neighbors all very
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close to me who have supported this concept of
this front yard variance for structures.
I do have because I thought it was very
important there is one neighbor that I do have
who can see from this house, although they are
fully screened, you can see my gazebo and he
could probably see, because of the angle, my
playhouse shed. I did ask him if he had any
concerns and I will submit the letter to you
and I'll read it into the record and this is
Richard Green at 430 West Creek Avenue. He is
the waterfront home directly across the street
from me. So he could see, certainly when he
tries, certainly the gazebo and the shed.
He writes: "I reside directly across the
street from the Larocca residence. Mr.
Larocca's gazebo and other structures along
with the substantial landscaping he has
incorporated around them have resulted in a
yard that I consider to be a complement to the
community. I therefore support his variance
application." I have that, who would like the
original of this letter?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'll take that for
the record. Thank you.
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Before we start with Leslie, I just
wanted to explain one thing to you. In my
opinion, I don't think I have ever seen an
application in one time indicating a request,
this is not a sarcastic statement, this is
just a pragmatic overview, okay, of four
specific accessory structures in one
application and this is going to take a little
deliberation. I have to tell you, okay, just
in general on my part and, of course, the
majority of it is based upon the size of your
property, okay, because of the setbacks that
exist in zoning today and the size of your
property. So you're going to have to be
patient with this
we're going to do
MR. LAROCCA:
one until we decide what
here.
I appreciate that. I would
like to say I didn't rehash the size issue,
the size of my lot at 1.27 acres, the adjacent
on one side and most of them on the other and
the Schaublein lot are of quarter of an acre
or third of an acre. I've also chosen to
build -- which we hear much about, Mr.
Chairman, we're building all these monster
houses. Ail the new houses are monster. I
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chose to build a very small house for both
aesthetic reasons to complement the community
and for environmental reasons. We're
believers in enough is enough. So that if I
then choose to put in -- please don't, in your
deliberation and as you work this though,
please don't penalize me for choosing to put
accessory structures that are small and
inoffensive rather than one enormous
structure, that I've chosen to put small
structures on my yard.
As you deliberate that, I ask that you
not penalize me for actually doing what we say
in the community is actually towards what we
say we want to move. So I have a 1600 square
foot house, I have no garage, so therefore I
have a little storage shed on my driveway. I
have a ubiquitous town 8 by 12 shed that I put
my lawnmower in and a hot tub and then I have
a gazebo. The gazebo alone, and I can present
the records, the gazebo alone sits in a lot
that has been zoned for an entire house and in
the area that was zoned for an entire house
now sits a gazebo 12 by 12. So I ask as you
pull into the details as you deliberate.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last thing
before we go on to Ms. Weisman, is that and
I'll be the bad guy to ask that question,
again, pragmatic question not meant to be
anything else but pragmatic, if the Board is
so inclined not to grant something that is
restrictively nonconforming, okay, in its
position, we may ask for something to be moved
a little bit. I've seen this in deliberation
before, I have no idea that that may be the
case here, so you may want to think that way
and this goes back to the symmetrical question
that I asked you in the beginning and that was
are you or will you make an attempt to make
anything more conforming and I realize that
that's a difficult thing based upon this --
the size of your lot, but this is a democratic
organization and we vote with three votes and
whoever agrees to those three votes that's how
the favorable decision is usually granted.
You may not want to reflect on that right now,
let's go with Ms. Weisman and just think about
what I said, if you don't mind.
MEMBER WEISMAN: First thing I want to do
is just to make sure that the record clearly
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states that there are four variances here for
four specific structures and I want to enter
it into the record exactly what the setbacks
are and the size of those structures from the
information we have.
The gazebo is 12 foot by 12 foot by 14
feet with a 48 and 57 foot setbacks. The
garden shed is an 8 by 12 by 12 foot structure
with a 50 foot and 24 foot setback. The
playhouse is 6 by 10 by 7 with a 24 foot
setback from West Creek and 5 feet from the
property boundary. The hot tub is on your
patio, which is in your central rear yard,
it's 91 by 95 inches by 30 inches with a
setback of 43 feet from Pequash and 125 feet
from the property boundary.
First I want to say that you have a very
large lot. You have no alternative but to
place anything in front yards, technically
side yards, but primarily it'll all be seen as
front yard, and in a lot your size you
certainly have, I believe, the right to some
accessory structures, especially since you
don't have a garage. I, you know, I'm sure we
will all agree cause we were all out there
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that it's mostly very well screened by very
attractive landscaping and so I think
primarily the only -- I do want to make one
comment about your reference to the 5-foot
setback on some other properties and so on,
not terribly long ago the accessory structure
Code was changed and as a consequence
accessory structures which could have once
been a foot, two or three feet from the
property boundary are now related to the size
of the lot and the size of the structure. You
know, there's a kind of a scale, you know, and
that's sort of what we're trying to apply in
terms of nonconformity.
So the only possible setback that I see
although it's terribly small that would be at
issue would be the one that you use for a
garbage garage right now.
MR. LAROCCA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Other than the -- the
other setbacks seem to me to be extremely
reasonable. They're very substantial, they're
very well screened, other than the gazebo. I
assume you're, over time, probably going to
screen more of that from West Creek --
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MR. LAROCCA: The gazebo? Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- by the way the beds
are laid out that you're likely going to be
adding more evergreen planting. So as far as
I'm concerned I'd want very much to hear from
the neighbors because I'm sure that there are
neighbors who will want to testify in terms of
this, but the hot tub is very private. It's
in the architectural rear yard and personally,
other than the impact on the property boundary
of the small garbage shed, you call it a
playhouse, I don't really see any issues with
the others. I know that it's four structures,
but you have a very large lot and they are
very small structures and I don't think they
have any adverse
their size.
MR. LAROCCA:
impact neither their use nor
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
see what happens
MR. LAROCCA:
I'll stop for now and
as others comment.
I will be redundant cause
kind of gave you my response on the playhouse.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's a very
thorough presentation as usually, very well
documented and I think we have all the
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information I need.
MR. LAROCCA: I guess in responding there
and to the Chairman, the one that is kind of
ironic cause it's so small the one because I
didn't want to sit here and not be able to
look you in the eye and say because I think
and I apologize for saying that, because we've
done a beck of a job and I think we've been
darn good neighbors and responsible in
everything we've done. I think that's
reflective and so I'd moved that playhouse
around quite a bit, but it's in the right spot
because if I move it to the other part of the
end of the driveway there's less screening at
no small expense by the way.
Please keep in mind if it's important
then my expense is irrelevant here, but if
it's not really important it's not cheap to
get these guys to move these things and if I
move it to any other part of the driveway,
cause I have moved it around, it shows more.
I could put it into the other end of the
driveway, but now it shows even more and I
would think it's cute so it wouldn't offend
me. It would be expensive and I don't think
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fair because it's very screened. That privet
hedge that's there only went in this year and
it's basically already completely screened.
So by next year it will be completely
screened. So I have tried, Mr. Chairman, to
move that playhouse around, but please don't
ask me to keep my garage out when it snows,
when it rains, when it's muddy, don't make me
not let it be by my driveway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. Thank you.
MR. LAROCCA: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who would like to
speak for or against this application?
MEMBER SIMON: May I?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, excuse me,
Michael and Ruth.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not going to repeat
the excellent comments or add some less than
excellent co~unents to ones that have already
been made on both sides of the podium. I just
think a question, as we are not unfamiliar
with having to decide on the location of
sheds. One of the problems, this is just
background, while the Code is clear for
example that if you have something that is
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less than 100 feet
building permit for
Department doesn't,
(sic) you don't need a
it; however, the Building
apparently, doesn't always
tell people that they still have to conform
with setbacks and location requirements. So
we have cases where people have already put
things in place, sometimes built them
themselves, and they come to us for
essentially an as-built variance and on some
occasions we have decided that they have to be
put somewhere else. It's a difficulty, it's
an inconvenience, it's an expense and it's not
something we do lightly.
We have an unusual problem here only in
the sense that we've got four of these things
to consider one by one and the question that
comes up is wouldn't it be nice if somehow
when somebody does build or in some of these
cases buy a shed that they went to us before
they spent the money in locating it so that we
wouldn't have to deal with the argument of
well it'll cost me a lot of money to move it.
So I think that is a particular problem
so that it may very well be that three of
these, two or three, may not constitute any
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problem whatever, but there may be one where
this issue is going to come up and so my
simple question is, why are you applying now
for variances for these?
MR. LAROCCA: You actually answered it.
It was my understanding that you did not need
a building permit that you didn't have to go
through the process.
MEMBER SIMON: Well, what brought you to
this -- what made you change your mind? When
did you learn this,
learn that?
MR. LAROCCA: I was
now I'm going back about
how did you happen to
going to put in a --
eight years, okay and
I haven't thought about this in quite a while
so seven years ago when I was deciding on what
size shed to put in, the original shed, the
very first shed, my lawnmower shed, well
you'll need a -- I went for the Building
permit and they said -- now I can't remember,
I think it's a 100 square feet I'm lucky cause
my shed is 96 square feet, by no accident.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. LAROCCA: It's 96 square feet because
I didn't need a building permit.
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MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. LAROCCA: And, therefore,
have to go through the rigamarole.
when I learned that it would be a
I didn't
That is
front yard
and I would need a variance
decision an extra 50 square
the expense and the time to
and I made the
feet wasn't worth
go for a variance.
I'll just go for the dime and buy the
ubiquitous Southold shed and plop it on my
yard and I had no requirements. I hope again
you appreciate the expense of the evergreen
screen there, nonetheless, to do the right
thing, not the legal thing, the right thing
and I had no idea that that would be the
problem. I will say that no one asked me
cause I thought after this all (inaudible) I
remembered the 100 square feet that's why the
96 square foot shed.
Well, my gazebo is 144 square feet so now
we're in 2006 five years later and my partner
has been banging on me for years she wants a
gazebo, she wants a gazebo, so we go to the
gazebo store and we picked the gazebo. I'm
sorry, we don't think. You buy the gazebo for
(inaudible) yard and have no idea you need a
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building permit for a gazebo.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm not asking how you
came to place them, how do you happen to be
here now?
MR. LAROCCA: I'm here now -- I'll answer
substantively illegally. I'm here now because
when I was asking for some relief from my
neighbor's bi-level garage --
MEMBER SIMON: Um-hmm.
MR. LAROCCA: -- his attorney -- and I -
they don't understand it thought it was
relevant to show you pictures of my hot tub
and then I learned that regardless of the size
of the structure even a hot tub required a
variance. So I learned of this --
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MR. LAROCCA: -- now to dot my I's and
cross my T's. It was my plan and I think a
good one, I wanted to weigh, review your
ruling, and as I and my attorney committed to
you, we would then do the right thing having
learned that regardless of the size of the
structure I needed to get a variance. Well,
within two days of your official ruling, I
don't know if I officially had gotten it yet,
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one of my neighbors,
had already gone to
complaint.
MEMBER SIMON:
question.
MR. LAROCCA:
I shall not speculate,
Town Hall and filed a
You've answered my
So here we are, but I had
committed to you as had my attorney at the
time that we would do it.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER OLIVA:
everything.
Right.
I think we've covered
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, would you
state your name for the record when you get up
there.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: My name is (inaudible)
Shaublein. I live next door to Mr. Larocca at
105 West Creek Avenue. I'm going to refer to
those pictures in my statement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: I've written the
statement in order to try to keep this as
brief as possible and hopefully not miss any
of my points.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: We need you to speak a
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little bit louder,
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: Sorry.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: I don't
in public so I'm a little bit
Mr. Schaublein.
typically speak
nervous.
First off, I would like to thank you for
the opportunity to be here and voice my
opposition to the variance before us today.
Living next door to Mr. larocca I am the most
affected neighbor because my front yard is
only five feet behind his playhouse/shed.
I wonder, why do both his shed and gazebo
have to be exactly where they are in his front
yard? I didn't see anything in his
application that spoke of the need to protect
equipment like a well pump, pool filter, etc.
from the elements. With over 8,000 square
feet of side yards and 21,000 square feet of
architectural rear yard, why not put them
there out of everyone's sight maintaining the
look and serenity of the community. If this
application is granted who can guarantee the
gazebo won't be used for anything else in the
future such as a shed, a cottage, vegetable
stand, or fruit stand, considering once it's
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there it will be there forever. Does this
mean that I also can have a gazebo on my front
lawn?
If you look at photo %1, which was taken
a couple of weeks ago before he cleaned his
site up for your inspection, you will see that
Mr. Larocca's front yard supplies boating
equipment etc plainly visible from the front
yard around his shed. How can this be
guaranteed not to happen in the future, after
all it is a storage shed.
In photo %2 you can see all the rodent
holes along the back of the shed right next to
my driveway. I guess they are there as a
result of the household garbage stored inside.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me one
You're referring to the playhouse
second.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me, go
ahead. Go ahead.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: I would also like to
mention that in the past I have also noticed
very strong odors of gasoline and chemicals
like fertilizer or weed killer when I was in
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my front yard.
Mr. Larocca's application also speaks of
extensive screening, photo %3 shows how
extensive. Perhaps if the shed wasn't so
close to my driveway, it wouldn't look as
prominent as it does. Because the shed is so
close he had to plant his screening only
inches from the property line as you can see
in photo #4. These hedges, because they need
space and light are now growing over my
property line as you see in photo #5. They
were planted by Mr. Larocca a couple of months
ago. Am I now responsible to maintain them as
they grow over my driveway? Mr. Larocca has
done nothing to try to contain them in his
yard. What happens in the future if I trim
them and they die, will I be responsible to
replace them? Do I have to hire a landscaper
to trim them and then sue Mr. Larocca for the
costs? Why has he even created this
situation?
The other day I measured how far his
playhouse/shed is from my house, 60 feet from
my house. I also measured the shed to his
house on his drawing and found it to be 110
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feet. Again, why
need to be in his
a total of 30,000
yard. Surely there is enough
the shed and the gazebo.
In the interest of being
so close to me? Why do they
front yard? Mr. Larocca has
square feet of side and rear
room to fit both
as brief as
possible, I have given you two pages of Mr.
Larocca's testimony from ZBA hearing #6079
dated 12/20/07 regarding his thoughts on
setbacks. Please read them and draw your own
conclusions. I would also point out back in
April of 2007, Mr. Larocca and I had a
conversation about sheds, He, he informed me
that according to the Town Code we both have
multiple front yards and require a variance
for any accessory buildings placed on them.
Here we are today 18 months later and he
is now going for his variances. I have to
wonder if I had not made inquiries of the
Building Department about his required
variances, would we even be here today. If
Mr. Larocca is granted a variance as requested
I can't help but think he will, in essence, be
rewarded for totally ignoring all proper
procedure because not applying for a variance
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he was able to do whatever he wanted with
absolutely no regard to any of Southold's
Building Codes, laws, or his neighbors.
Additionally, because he didn't go through
proper procedure, this variance is a self-
imposed hardship and should be treated as
such.
I thank you very much for your attention
and chance to speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: I also would like to
address a few things that Mr. Larocca spoke of
a couple of minutes ago. He talked about the
previous owner of my house ripping out yews
and, quite frankly, I took out those yews
about two years ago.
you could barely get
The driveway was not
When I bought the house
one car in the driveway.
expanded. Mr. Larocca
also planted yews for screening for his shed,
which was there when I bought the house, but
he happened to plant them on my side of the
property line and I just find it amazing that
he just assumes he could do whatever he wants
right up to the last infinitesimal dimension
and the picture with the dollar bill I think
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very much illustrates exactly where he is
coming from in that regard.
The fence that he talks about I had no
prior knowledge of. Ail I said to him was and
this decrepit dilapidated fence that he
referred to all I knEw is it was wholly,
completely and entirely on his property and
{inaudible). So when he talks about I
abandoned the fence, well it's your fence as
far as I'm concerned. So I also would like to
say that when I was going for my variance for
my garage and my shed, Mr. Larocca's playhouse
shed was literally 22 inches from the property
line. He moved it in a couple of hours,
absolutely no problem to where it is now
(inaudible). I don't see where this is really
a great imposition for him to just literally
pick this thing up and move it. It is after
all a playhouse.
Ail these other buildings that he refers
to on West Creek Avenue as being in the front
yards of these buildings, they're all houses
that are on the waterfront. Their front yard
from what I understand is on the other side of
the house. So I don't see how that has
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anything to even do with what he's proposing
he would like to do. He also referred to my
garage as being a two-level garage. I'm not
sure, but maybe he considers a two-car garage
a two-level garage cause it is only a one
level garage.
He also spoke about six neighbors coming
and speaking it was literally actually four,
three from out here and one being a neighbor
of mine from Mineola where my other house is.
Ail the screening he also talks about that he
put up around his shed in the back yard, quite
frankly, it all appeared within the last year
and that's really all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SCHAUBLEIN:
questions?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
time, thank you.
Would anyone else like to
Thank you.
If anybody has any
No, not at this
speak? Sir?
MR. DIGNY: My name is Charles Digny and
I live across the street on the waterside from
Mr. Larocca and my property runs the whole
length of his property and including in front
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of or in between the water and the gazebo that
has been put there. Now anybody that builds a
home in Southold knows they have to go through
the permit process. Now, it would seem to me
that Mr. Larocca feels that the permit process
is a fiasco and doesn't apply to him. He puts
things wherever he wants to do and if it's
good in his mind then it should be good in my
mind. Well, it's not. I don't think it's
proper to store your garbage. It's not a
playhouse, it's a place to store garbage and
it's right on top of the property -- his next
door neighbor's property and it's in view from
the road and it is obviously a garbage storage
shed and I don't understand with all the
property he has and knowing what the permit
process is that he would just helter skelter
just put things wherever the hell he felt that
they were good, that you people are
insignificant, you're not important to him.
His thoughts are what counts and, frankly, I
really resent it as a neighbor and I hope that
they would be corrected.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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Anybody else?
Mr. Larocca, I'm going to have to ask you
to reduce your thoughts to writing. I'm going
to let you speak for a couple of minutes here,
but we gotta get going with these hearings.
We're only --
MR. LAROCCA:
Mr. Chairman.
(Inaudible) things he said,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I understand
that, that's why I'm going to ask anybody
within the next few minutes to please reduce -
- we will allow you for two weeks to reduce
them to writing and we'll leave the file open.
We're not going to transport them from one
person to the other, from the applicant to
neighbors or people that feel that they have
the right to say something regarding this in
the community (inaudible), but I will leave
the file open and you're very welcome to
review it.
MR. LAROCCA: So would I get to respond
aloud?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course you get
to respond. Five minutes and that's it, we
need to get going.
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MR. LAROCCA; Alright, very quickly in
five minutes please let the record show that
the two gentleman that just expressed those
opinions are the two gentleman that were the
friend of the guy who wanted to build the bi-
level garage. It is a bi-level garage, he
wanted to put lifts in. That's not allowed,
in the files are the pictures of lifts for his
bi-level garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We know that. We
know that.
MR. LAROCCA: No complaints were ever
lodged where I asked for a compromise on his
shed. There was never a complaint against me.
I have submitted writings of my neighbors in
writing for you. I'll put that in writing for
you. I will ask to direct your attention to
the next couple of exhibits. Never mind, we
can go back to picture 10 that I submitted to
you. Picture 10, I mean this is ghat my
property looked like (inaudible) lived there
{inaudible). The broken down driveway, the
boat, the (inaudible), the b~oken down cement
behind it, that was my property line. There's
that fence that was put in by the previous
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neighbor and he did not take that yew out.
The previous neighbor took that yew out and I
gave you the story that is -- and I won't
mince words, that is an outright lie. He did
not even take that out, my previous neighbor
took that out. She did all that work and it
sat there for years like that.
I have never seen a rodent. You've been
around my yard, it's immaculate. I have never
seen a rodent by my shed. In fact, it is a
secured shed for that very reason to protect
against that, again another lie. I have on
several occasions made sure, as best I can
because of our obviously hostile relationship,
trimmed that privet. If he allowed me to put
two feet on his yard, I'll trim it even more,
but I don't go back and trim it and try to
pick up the little pieces of it.
The shed was moved, I explained that, I
moved it two feet to get (inaudible) a couple
of feet because once he moved his boat out I
could get at the fence to remove it and pick
up a crowbar and move it a couple of feet and
then I was able to plant the privet along the
(inaudible). I didn't put the driveways right
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on the edge of the property lines, okay. I'm,
frankly, the guy trying to plant the screen
between us. It's very --
Also, there were six neighbors, again my
veracity, there were six neighbors in the
record including the attorney who came up in
support of the front yard variances. They
have 20 feet from the property line a 30-foot
high two-car, four-car garage, two levels, and
now he's offended by my gazebo. It lacks any
credibility. It lacks any credibility and, by
the way, another lie and I
in any affidavits you want.
behind my shed in the rear,
will attest to it
The screening
all of those
evergreens were there from when I put my shed
in five-plus years ago. That's another lie.
I did add one new evergreen, why? Because
between my house and that 17-foot shed he put
up to circumvent the Town Code was an eyesore
to me so I planted yet another evergreen that
blocked, that tried to try to block his shed.
So I did, I planted two $250.00 additional
items to screen me from his shed. Ail of the
screening of my rear shed was in place for at
least five years.
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So for some reason we're not under oath
here, but those are outright lies and I'm
saying (inaudible) they were lies. Not
obviscating the truth, lies about what was
screened and when and how anybody has the
hutspa to (inaudible) on me to ask for what he
asked for and to have the nerve to stand up
here and complain about a gazebo that I might
use as a fruit stand, that's not the
credibility of anybody I might turn that into
a fruit stand someday is ludicrous and I
apologize for getting aggravated, but you know
you should have some respect for the process
here.
Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Larocca, so
what we're going to do is our meeting is on
the 13th of November, we would like to have
your further comments, any person's final
comments not just yours, by probably Tuesday
of that week, okay, which would back it down
to the 11th or SO by 3:00 in the afternoon.
We'd like you to review the file, we can't
give you a copy of his testimony today because
we only have five copies of it. We'd like you
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to come in and review the file based upon what
he had said, if you want to reflect it in
writing.
MR. LAROCCA: Anybody can say -- any
member of the Board because last time we
seemed to get into more of a discussion about
my hot tub than his accessory structures. I
really don't want to get into the erosion of
the relationships amongst this and the
adjacent neighbor. Are there concerns that
the Board has heard that they -- don't make we
guess and try to respond to what I've already
identified to you are a variety of lies. If
there are any concerns that the Board members
have, I will respond in writing, but what have
I not been clear enough about or do you have -
- do you want me to provide records to prove
the ludicrousness of those charges?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr.
can't tell you what to do. I
to understand that everything
Larocca, I
think you have
in the record is
fair game. Okay? We understand your counter
testimony. We're asking you to be aware of
the fact that anything else that you can give
us that you feel you need to do in writing, we
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would appreciate you doing.
I am forgetting, however, and our
wonderful clerk just told me that the 11th is
Veteran's Day. So we kind of like need it
Monday, which is a week from this coming
Monday, the l0th, by around 3:00 so that we can
review it the 12th and the morning of the 13th
or the afternoon of the 13th SO we're ready --
we're only going to start deliberating then.
I'm not sure that we're going to come up with
a formulated decision at that particular
point, just so you're aware of that situation,
okay?
BOARD ASST.: Mr. Larocca is probably
asking what does he have to submit to the
Board.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I answer that? As in
any appeals board or court, we make our
decisions based on the information we have.
If we heard nothing beyond today, we would
decide on basically what we heard. You have,
other people have the opportunity, to
supplement the written record between now and
I guess it's the l0th, and we can use that. We
are -- there is no point to our saying yes, we
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need more. We have no obligation nor desire,
frankly, to go on for months and months and
months so that we have information now and we
would be delighted to have it extended over
the next 10 days or so forth so we will have
yet more and then we will start deliberating
on what we have. So no, you don't have to do
anything further than you've already done if
you don't choose to.
MR. LAROCCA: I appreciate that, but my
question, it'll be my last question, is there
a specific concern that has not been fully
addressed because I was (inaudible) I will not
answer it now (inaudible) time, but rather
than me guess is there -- do any of you have a
concern or because something hasn't been
explained or you want to see documents or -- I
would just -- tell me what it is (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: So I don't think I can or
will answer that question. You can only put
in whatever you think will be helpful. We're
not going to tell you what we -- first of'all,
I can only speak for myself we have not had a
meeting on this so we cannot give you a whole
series of suggestions as to what questions we
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might be delighted to have answers to when we
deliberate so you're on your own at this
point.
MR. LAROCCA: Then when I look at the
record I'll see what
MEMBER DINIZIO:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
was submitted.
Well, their comment or
Let me just go back
to one thing here. We still have not deduced
the fact that you w~ll accept alternate relief
if the Board still wants to move one or two of
these structures. Will you accept alternate
relief or do you want us to say A,B,C are
okay, or A and B are okay, but C and D aren't
so therefore we're denying C and D and we're
granting A and B.
MR. LAROCCA: I don't know -- I don't
know how I could possibly answer that, Mr.
Chairman, because I don't know what you're
referring to.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let's put all
four --
MR. LAROCCA: I mean if you said D, could
you move that thing another foot, but I don't
know what you're asking. You know, I don't
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know what you're asking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know
either, because I don't know we haven't
deliberated on it. We usually ask people, as
I started in my original conversation and I'm
not drawing a circle again to indicate
syrametry, I am asking you will you accept
alternate relief from this Board?
MR. LAROCCA: That's not a choice --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can move the
building.
MRS. MOORE: I have a (inaudible) explain
it to him and then (inaudible). Not on the
record just out in the hall.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, go outside
or stay inside. Mr. Schaublein you had
something you wanted to say, sir?
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: He said a couple of
things that flat out called me a liar, if you
do go back to the record of when I was asking
for my garage, he was the one that was talking
about the lack of screening between his
property and my garage and his shed is right
there. So now all of a sudden there is all
kinds of adequate screening there. Well, it
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didn't certainly grow overnight and that's
what my point was.
The other thing I said was there was
rodent holes in the back of that shed and
never made the accusation of a slew of rodents
running around, but something certainly is
living under that shed I would have to assume
it's rodents. The other thing going back a
few years ago when we did have somewhat of a
relationship, he had approached me and asked
me -- he somehow told me he knew that he had
planted two yews on my side of the property
line and I said if you want to leave them
there or you want to maintain them, I said, I
really don't have a problem with that because
they're not really -- they made me do a bump
out in my driveway in order to get around them
and I said if you maintain them I'll leave
them there. I really don't care.
I'm trying to work with him but when he
takes screening and he's accusing me of
utilizing my property for a driveway which is
not needed it's there six inches from the
property line is the edge of it and it's not
going anyplace and he -- whatever the length
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of the dollar bill is -- plants plants next to
the property line. These things grow, why
wouldn't he plant them back further where they
had room to grow? Why do they have to be in
my yard and now as you can see in that one
photo they are in my yard. They're starting
to encroach on my driveway. I have seen
absolutely no evidence of him ever cutting
them, trimming, cutting them back, whatever.
Ail I've seen is this fertilizer there and
he's watered them on multiple occasions and
they are growing, but they're growing into my
yard.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: I really want to work
with him, but he's just -- it's just very,
very difficult and he keeps talking about a
two-level garage. I don't understand, you
can't drive a car onto a second level of a
garage so I have no idea what he's referring
to with that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's -- we'll deal
with that once the garage is constructed.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's all we can
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do.
Okay, we thank you.
MR. SCHAUBLEIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Larocca, do you
understand the question I asked you?
MR. LAROCCA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay,
the mike, please, I apologize.
but you need
Could you tell me what your opinion is
regarding the alternate relief issue?
Thank you, Mrs. Moore, by the way.
MR. LAROCCA: Yes, do what you think is
best.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Okay, we are going to
Thank you.
close this hearing
pending the receipt of any information anybody
would like to add to this file. We need it by
Monday afternoon the l0th at 3 p.m. and we
respectfully request anybody that's interested
in the file to review that, Wednesday and
Thursday and anytime thereafter. We will be
submitting any letters that we receive to the
individual Board members, meaning myself and
my fellow Board members, and that's the story.
So I am offering that as a resolution.
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
BOARD ASST.: I need to (inaudible) Mr.
Larocca's application, I'd like to receive
everything by 3 p.m. except that Mr. Larocca
would be able to look at the {inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no
rebuttal, it's -- we've heard the rebuttal.
Ail we want to know is there any last minute
comments that you'd like to make and that's
basically the situation. Either side, any of
you three gentleman would like to make any
further comments, that's it. Normally, in a
situation like this, this is really a
conjecture situation between neighbors, this
is not a law situation one way or another and
that's the reason why we're not dealing with
it on that basis.
that alright?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's my suggestion, is
Yes.
Fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I offer that
as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6214 - Joan E. Shannon
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-122A and 280-124 based on the Building
Inspector's August 1, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval noting a proposed demolition,
renovations and additions, with increase in
the degree of nonconforming concerning a side
yard setback at less than 15 feet and total
side yards at less than 35 feet, at 7080 Great
Peconic Bay Boulevard and adjacent to Great
Peconic Bay, Laurel; CTM 126-11-7."
This is a Walz sort of situation and it
appears unique. You're going to be doing
several things. They're raising the roof and
putting on a second story and you need relief
primarily for the second story setback; is
that correct?
Why don't you state your name for the
record?
MR. STROMSKI: My name is Robert
Stromski, partner of (Inaudible) Stromski
Associates, the architects for the owner'of
the parcel.
We were contacted by the owner for her
intentions to do some renovations to the
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existing house. Currently there is a second
floor presently at the premises. One of the
problems is due to the nature of the way the
house was constructed the second floor
ceilings are very iow in that livable second
floor. A good majority of that ceiling is
below 7.6, but the current space does meet
habitable requirements for livable space.
There is currently a master bedroom and master
bath upstairs. What we are looking to do is
to raise the main ridge of the house
essentially keeping the Cape Cod style of the
house and making the major roof pitch to be a
12 on 12 roof pitch, which is fairly common in
the area and within the characteristics of the
neighborhood. By doing so, that allows us to
increase the pitch of the front and rear
dormers, which, currently, as they are
constructed have a problem with water due to
the fact that they are fairly shallow.
The existing roof would be raised
approximately about 6.4, 6 feet 4 inches, for
a total ridge height of 26 feet 2 inches.
Also, as part of that construction the second
floor is being extended towards the east above
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a section of the current house right now that
has a much lower roof than the main ridge.
That is the area that is in question to the
side yard setback, which right now is
currently 5 feet 1 inch, but also due to the
fact that the total rear yard requirement is
35 feet. The rest of the portion of relief
even that being raised becomes part of the
variance requested. The other areas that
we're looking to do is a front porch addition
and that we're trying to be within the
required setbacks for that area. So, in
essence, it's the second floor area that is --
would be in violation and the fact that we're
also doing construction to the roof as well.
As you can see from the elevations that
were submitted we are trying to stay within
character of the surrounding neighborhood and
the style of houses that are in the area. We
have been -- we have tried with the design to
be somewhat sympathetic to the properties
adjacent to the subject property. With the
one second floor addition area that is to the
east, we have tried to institute a hip roof
which at least brings the ridge of the
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property extends it back so that it tries to
not impose so much directly right up to the
property line as it exists. We are proposing
that the second floor is bumped out a little
bit beyond the first floor and that is just
for aesthetic reasons just to give a little
more character to the house, which is somewhat
reminiscent of cottage styles in that area.
If the Board has any questions, I would
be more than happy to answer them at this
point.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The second floor bump
out above the first floor what is -- how much
is that?
MR. STROMSKI: It's about 1 foot 6.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that will reduce
that side yard setback --
MR. STROMSKI: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- by 1
the second floor.
MR. STROMSKI: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: In other words, the
current side yard setback on the --
MR. STROMSKI: The shortest corner is 5
foot 1.
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MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. STROMSKI:
corner is 5.3. The
to the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
--5.1.
Right and the furthest
house is slightly slanted
Okay, that's the one --
that's what you're looking for relief on?
MR. STROMSKI: Correct.
And also, just for the record, if you
were to look at the existing square footage of
the house, it's 2,249 square feet. With these
renovations we're looking at an expansion of
524 square feet to the second floor area. So
the house in total would be 2,773 square feet,
which would definitely be considered within
character of the surrounding houses in that
area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Certainly it is,
I mean if you look at the, as we often have
done, the various houses in the neighborhood,
it's certainly contextual and not problematic
at all. They have a new basement access. The
covered front porch is not an addition here,
that's conforming setback.
MR. STROMSKI: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But I guess anything you
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do on here is going to trigger Walz. So --
MR. STROMSKI: Anything you do with the
roof is going to require variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MR. STROMSKI: Also just for the record,
I didn't state it before, we have received a
letter of non-jurisdiction from the New York
State Department of Environmental
Conservation. They do not feel'there is any
adverse affects to the environment and also we
have received the Board of Trustees approval
as required. So this is all --
MEMBER WEISMAN: This shows consistency
so we have a letter indicating that
consistency and Soil and Water indicates no
negative impact from this proposal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Even with that
consistency, however, any new front
(inaudible) has got to into variance.
MR. STROMSKI: Correct, as per the
Trustees' approval and as stated in the
application they intend to put in drywells. I
believe now under the current storm water
management plan with new construction it would
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, right. I
just wanted to reiterate that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know, bn the
west side is heavy evergreen screening. The
roof height is not going to have a significant
impact in terms of property boundary, in terms
of neighbors or anything like that. It will
probably be -- I guess you'll have to be
losing that large maple tree on the front of
the house.
MR. STROMSKI: Yes, that is -- we're
actually in the process of trying to get
estimates of what that would be, but due to
the nature of the front porch and even with
trying to do anything with the roof, that tree
would be in the way and also it's in danger
being that it's
existing house.
condition.
very large and hangs over the
Exactly, it's an unsafe
side
just
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, th~ westerly
yard is very narrow already, actually.
MR. STROMSKI: Correct,
over 13 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
I believe it's
on what it is you're needing relief from,
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I'll hold off
review everything.
MEMBER SIMON:
east side setback.
on any other questions until we
My question concerns the
Now, I understand that
there's a 5.1. Would that be the resulting
setback from the extended second floor or
that's what exists now?
MR. STROMSKI: No, the way we submitted
it, right now the existing first floor
footprint on the shortest corner is 5 foot 1.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, now how much will
it be with the second floor?
MR. STROMSKI: If you were to take that 5
foot 1 and reduce it by 1 foot 6, you're
looking at 3 foot 7.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. That's the part
that's close. I mean how close that is, it's
still, well there is a screening. There is a
hedge on that side.
MR. STROMSKI: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: That is the issue that
it's essentially -- it's not just a Walz
problem because you're actually extending the
side of the house -- reducing the setback
further. It would be Walz even if it were
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going directly vertical.
MR. STROMSKI: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: You're going a little
beyond that, actually that's the point that's
out. Can you see any alternative to that?
MR. STROMSKI: Again, like I had stated,
the situation of the way it was bumped out was
mostly an aesthetic reason. If the Board
feels that that needs to be cut back, the
design could reflect that.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. STROMSKI: Obviously the desire is we
would like to keep it for aesthetic reasons.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I appreciate that.
Thank you.
No more questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you for
that concession if we are so in need of it.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak?
Yes, sir?
MR. GATTUS: Good afternoon. My name is
Ray Gattus and I'm Ms. Shannon's immediate
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west neighbor.
I'm not here to say yes or no as
any
us;
bit
far as
of the things that we feel would impact
however, I would like to give you a little
of a history here. Nine years ago we
built our house and, at that point, the house
was halfway built and we suddenly were
notified by a lawyer, Ms. Shannon's lawyer,
that they were suing not only us but the Town
of Southold because we misinterpreted the side
yard requirements. It turned out that that
was not the case; however, it did cost us
quite a bit of money for legal fees to fight
this and now I just find it kind of ironic
that she's doing exactly the same thing here,
nine years later.
One of the problems we had was we could
not put up a screened porch because she was
concerned it was going to block her view,
which it would not because of the bushes that
you were able to see. We also had a problem
with the side yard because they told us that
if we increased the one side yard we would
have a problem with fire equipment getting to
the other side of the house. I don't see
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anything here talking about fire equipment
being able to get to the water side house
here. I think there's some kind of an
inconsistency there.
We also had to cut back on the front
porch, the porch that faces the road. Also
one of the biggest complaints she had was that
our house, which was going to be a two-story
house, was going to block her view and block
her air, which was absolutely ridiculous and
again here she is doing exactly the same
thing. When, in fact, it didn't block
anything because she had the bushes all the
way down to the waterline on both sides of the
house and she subsequently put a second level
of bushes on the west side so as not to see
anything in our yard. I just think it's
inconsistent and a little bit ironic that she
would go ahead and do something like this now.
I am concerned about this -- I didn't
know it was going to be six feet higher than
it is. I'm also concerned about not
necessarily view or air or anything that she
had suggested before, but I'm concerned that
it's going to give us kind of a claustrophobic
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feeling in our house because we're so close
and she's going to go up even higher. He was
talking about a gabled roof on the east end.
Possibly a gabled roof on the west end would
help as well to cut back on the immediate
height, but that's basically all I wanted to
say.
I'm just a little concerned that here she
is going to do exactly the same thing she sued
the Town about many years ago and seems to
just wash her hands and be finished with it.
But that's all I have to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
like us to go with this?
say.
Where would you
MR. GATTUS: What do you mean by that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
us to do?
MR. GATTUS: I just want you to know that
there was a problem here before and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was not a
sarcastic statement that I was making.
MR. GATTIS: I don't wish her any harm I
hope she has great -- she does a great thing
with her house because it's only going to
improve the neighborhood.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. GATTUS: Obviously that's not what
she said for me. She said it was going to be
a blight on the neighborhood, at any rate, I
think the only thing that might be helpful
would be to break back that gabled roof on the
west side as well. I didn't know that he had
that on the east side cause I haven't seen any
layouts. As far as the addition, it's fine
with me. It's seems to be okay, except for
that height.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I do want to make one
comment. The side yard, the existing side
yard that we're -- the easterly side yard iS
already so narrow it could never be used for
accessing equipment.
MR. GATTUS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: However, the side yard
on the opposite side is 13.7 feet.
MR. GATTUS: Don't we need 15 feet?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we do.
MR. GATTUS: And now we're bringing in
another foot and a half on the top. I don"c
know how a truck would get down there, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, no. I'm merely
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pointing out they're both nonconforming side
yards.
MR. GATTUS: Yeah. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But what I'm saying is
that one of them is wide enough for equipment
to reach --
MR. GATTUS: Oh, it is? I thought it was
15 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well you can still
have a variance from a, you know, from the 15
feet and still fit equipment through. The
code does require that would be a conforming
side yard, but even with nonconforming side
yard and, in this case, the existing house has
that nonconformity and it is wide enough to
get emergency equipment down there.
MR. GATTUS: Okay, even with the
extension of the foot and a half making it
less than 13 feet?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that foot and a
half is going on the side yard that's already
MR. GATTUS: Oh, it's not going on the
west side?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. It's going on
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the east side.
MR. GATTUS: I see, okay. I didn't see
this for.
MR. STROMSKI: If you are (inaudible)
this back. Due to the nature of the second
floor here, this pitch is different than this
pitch. If we were to kick this back, it would
make a very odd roof because these aren't the
same height, whereas on this side I was able
to do it with the same slope where the second
floor is. So it (inaudible) as much.
MR. GATTUS: Yeah, I think just looking
at it might be helpful because I think in our
architectural prints we have about seven
iterations before were ever got through with
the (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Out of courtesy,
perhaps, this doesn't need to take place at
the podium. Maybe when we're done you will
share those plans with the neighbor.
So the impact to your house is to remain,
other than the fact that the roof will be
it's not going to encroach any closer
raised,
to what
MR.
-- to where your house is.
STROMSKI: Right, that's right.
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That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright,
yard will remain the same.
MR. GATTUS: Um-hmm,
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
you for your information.
so that side
I understand.
Thank you. Thank
Anybody else like to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing reserving the decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6217 - Patricia and
Robert Friemann
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116B based on an amended application for a
building permit and the Building Inspector's
August 26, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning additions and alternations to an
existing single-family dwelling at less than
75 feet from the bulkhead adjacent to Little
Creek, and for which a stop work order was
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issued because of a change in the
work and change
under ZBA #6139.
Road, Cutchogue;
The change
scope of the
since application submitted
Location: 2935 Pine Tree
CTM 104-3-8."
as I understand it is the
building of a dormer on the house itself and
is unrelated to the original variance. Mr.
Schwartz, I would appreciate it if you would
fill us in.
MR. SCHWARTZ: Sure. First of all --
BOARD ASST.: Just for the record, would
you tell us your name?
MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect
for the project.
The stop work order was for a previous
situation that we have taken care of. This
stop work was not for this dorner that we're
applying for.
MEMBER SIMON: It's not for the dormer?
MR. SCHWARTZ: No, in fact that dormer is
not built, not an as-built dormer.
The dormer if you look on the plans is
well within the footprint of the existing
house.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
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MR. SCHWARTZ: It's 15 foot in from the
side yard, it's 44 feet from the bulkhead. It
is within the 75 feet so they consider it
extending a nonconformity (inaudible). So the
11 by 16 shed dormer we're looking to create.
MEMBER SIMON: Now, as I understand it,
if it hadn't been for the variance regarding
the setback for the front of the house, for
the garage I guess it was, there would not
have been any variance called for with regard
to the dormer. They could have built the
dormer already or was it they had to come
before the Board because it is less than 75
feet where the dormer is. What was the stop
work order for then?
MR. SCHWARTZ: That was for the Trustees
felt that we were doing more work than what
they had approved. Although we had not
changed, we had to demolish more walls during
the construction phase.
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.
MR. SCHWARTZ: But we went through that
process with the Trustees, we've been approved
and this is completely separate.
MEMBER SIMON: So that's not before us?
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MR. SCHWARTZ:
MEMBER SIMON:
questions at this
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
No.
I don't have any further
time.
No questions.
No, I don't have any
I have been over to
the house. I see no particular problem with
this applicant's request, your client's
request, and we'll open it up to anybody else
who would like to speak. Anybody like to
speak regarding this?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6229 - Peter and Sabrina Pezzino
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
revised October 6, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed new dwelling at less
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than 25 feet total side yards (and after
demolition of an existing dwelling), at 3120
Grathwohl Road, New Suffolk; CTM 110-8-7."
I don't know if you've all been out
there, this is a very narrow, very deep lot
and I guess that the plans here are primarily
to bring the new house into greater conformity
wherever possible, but it will require total
side yard setbacks of 15 feet to be what
you're requesting rather than the Code-
required 25 feet on lots less than 20,000
square feet. I think I have all the details
in here, but Pat why don't you go ahead and --
MRS. MOORE: Sure. Thank you for
actually going over there {inaudible}.
To begin here, as you point out, this is
only a 50-foot wide parcel. The house, as you
saw from your inspection, there is -- the
property is presently improved. The existing
house is a one-story house, which is only 2-
1/2 feet at it's closest point on the north
side and 8 feet on the south side. The house
is really dilapidated. I understand somebody
had been living in there maybe three years
ago, but in very poor conditions.
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My client is a young family man. His
family is growing and this was all he could
afford at the time. Now there's certainly a
lot more available, but at the time, three
years ago when he bought this property or two
years ago, this was the only affordable
property within this area. So he bought this
and from that point forward he's been working
towards meeting all of the regulations that
are applicable here.
Primarily when we start with a piece of
property like this that's close to the water,
we have to identify regulatory agencies, as in
this case, we have 100 feet from the edge of
wetlands so we had to place the house no
closer than 100 feet. Then we had to deal
with the Health Department. The Health
Department, again, also wants to see sanitary
system far away from wetland, as did the
Trustees and the DEC, but in particular the
Health Department requires sanitary systems to
be in a front yard. So we had to place the
sanitary system in the front yard before we
can locate the house.
At that point, we finally locate the
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house. We want to conform as best we can so
the rear yard -- the applicable rear yard is
45 feet. So we start our building envelope at
35 and at that point we tried to design a
house that will meet the needs of the property
owner and it's, as I said, he's a young man,
young family and they'd like a two-story
house. He's designed a house with a nice
front porch and it is not a large house by any
means, but we have tried to maintain at least
one side yard that is as conforming as
possible. A 10-foot setback to be sure that
we have adequate clearance for any vehicles
and certainly emergency vehicles, but, in
particular, just a car to be able to get
through. So we've maintained the one side
yard. The other side yard was at 2-1/2 feet,
we've increased it to 5 feet and from that
point forward we've determined to design the
best we can.
Obviously, it would be very lovely to
have a house that would be wide and views out
to the water, but the lot is narrow so we
tried to design something that has maintained
some of the beautiful views out to the creek
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and also to try to maintain the setbacks.
I'll answer any questions that you might
have. The design pretty much speaks for
itself and this house will conform now, as it
was proposed, to I would think most of the
homes in the neighborhood. Most of the lots
in the area are preexisting nonconforming
lots. As you can see from our -- from the
house that is presently there that it is
preexisting nonconforming in its location in
all respects, both front
then the sanitary is not
I'd like to be able
yard, side yard, and
conforming and so on.
to answer whatever
questions that come up so I did want to
address your questions specifically.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How many square foot
total is the house, the proposed two-story
house?
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I do have that
information somewhere in this. We do have
Trustees approval for this project as I go
through I'm noticing that. Here we go. I had
to find my project description. Sorry,
didn't have it memorized. Let's see, well it
should have given me the square footage, it's
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35 by first floor 43. So, sorry, I don't have
the multiplication of that, but about 2600
square feet including a one-car garage. We
did design with a one-car attached garage more
-- for multiple reasons. One is to, because
of our setback requirements for accessory
structures, it would put an accessory garage
in the rear yard almost centered in the
property and he has a son right now, the back
yard a nice safe place for a young -- for his
son to play in and we don't want to really
occupy a lot of space with additional
structures, so that's why it was an attached
garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You did make one
argument in your application that to increase
the 5-foot side yard and meet the property --
meet the needs of the applicant, you would
have to lengthen the house and encroaching
upon a rear yard setback.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. So we'd actually --
MEMBER WEISMAN: What about -- what about
simply making the house 2-foot narrower?
That's why I asked about square footage.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, of course.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Can you live with a 7-
or an 8-foot sideyard?
MRS. MOORE: We will live with whatever
the Board thinks is reasonable. We'd also
shift the house in such a way where it is
really kind of
sense, we slit
and the 5 feet and
that it's a little
little bigger on the other. We are very
flexible with respect to the positioning
the house. If -- our limitations are
obviously rear yard, we want to keep the
conforming setback otherwise we would ~ave
cut the baby in half in.a
the difference between the 10
shift'it over sligh{ly so
smaller on one side, a
of
to
come back here and ask for another variance,
and front yard we want to keep, we have to
keep 10 feet from the sanitary, the septic
tank.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. So (inaudible)
properly. So as far as I'm concerned it's
where it should be. The issue really before
us is just kind of max out on such a narrow
deep lot --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- you know, the side
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yard setback. That's really why I simply
asked.
MRS. MOORE: That's why we're flexible.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I wanted to
know what size the house was also because, you
it was a little tiny house, which it
know, if
isn't --
MRS.
size for
MOORE: No, no. It's a comfortable
a growing family.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The side on the other
side to the northeast is very large and it's
set way back. You know, this is going to be a
big big improvement over what's there, much
more conforming and setback much farther from
the street than what it currently is and, you
know, in every way I think it's going to be an
improvement to the character of the
neighborhood and I'm sure your client will be
very happy with the result, but I just wanted
to bring up the issue of how we can grant
this, you know, what is the least possible
side yard variance we can grant in order to be
reasonable with your client and still, you
know, do the least variance possible.
I don't have any further questions.
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MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
MEMBER OLIVA: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so let me
just reiterate, you will accept alternate
relief?
MRS. MOORE: Yes and we will accept
repositioning of the house as far as
adjustment from one side to the other. So if
you're considering alternate relief, it's our
preference if we had, you know, a choice would
be to shift the house a little bit so you have
-- let's see, what's an average (inaudible), I
don't know. Whatever is -- I mean, if you
make it -- it's a small enough shift we're
really not talking about significant change to
the elevations and the floor plans. The more
you cut on one side over another, the more we
have to change all our floor plans.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The garage could be
cut a little bit, too.
MRS. MOORE: It is a one-car garage. I
don't know how much smaller you can make it,
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but
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
It could be 10
easy. It's a little deep by 22, but --
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What else?
MRS. MOORE: We'll work -- whatever you
give us as far as setbacks, we will work
within that building envelope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: As long as you just
recognize that the Building Department
recognizes that you're shifting things around
to accommodate the setbacks.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, anybody
else like to speak regarding this? Sure.
MR. FRANK ZORY: My name is Frank Zory, I
live next door to this proposed structure.
BOARD ASST.: Would you speak into the
mike, please.
MR. ZORY: Can you hear me now?
BOARD ASST.: We just need your name,
please, for the record.
MR. ZORY: Zory, Z-O-R-Y.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a
question, standing in front of the house are
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you to the right or to the left, in front of
their house?
MR. ZORY: I'm to
the left.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the left, so
you're to the north side, northwest side.
Looking at their house,
MR. ZORY: Um-hmm, the beige house with
the hedges all around.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. ZORY: That house, if it's moved back
and made two stories, will impose on my
property that was the reason I came down here.
Everybody in the neighborhood wants that house
to be fixed, obviously, cause it's an eyesore
right now, but I also don't want to -- I went
to an appraiser, Richard Abbotelli, and he
looked at it and he said it possibly could de-
value my house because this house would be
sitting right, you know, looking at us a two-
story house. I want to work with this guy,
you know, he's a young feller, you know, he
looks like a nice guy and I want the house to
get fixed, but I feel that it's just a little
bit too much house for that property.
You spent an hour talking about sheds
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being 5 feet from the fence and this is going
to be a whole house 5 feet from the fence and
I think that that's a bit much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not if I vote on
it, sir.
MR. ZORY: It seems that it's kind of
close to put a house. If I wanted to build an
extension and put it 5 feet from ~he fence
somebody would scream, I guess, you know. As
far as the cesspool, as far as the house is
concerned, my feeling was that it could always
be improved on. The foundation could be
improved on and maybe an extension put in the
back of the house to give you the extra
bedrooms. This would also give them the
ability to see the water cause the house would
be further up towards the road. By pulling
the house backwards, they're taking the water
view away, which I think hurts their value, if
anything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand that.
The problem is we can't preserve that and this
is not a sarcastic statement. That's one of
the problems that we have today. Scenic
easements really don't exist in this town.
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I've only seen two in 28 years, but I would
like to come over and see your property on
Saturday if I could.
MR. ZORY: Yeah, I'll be home.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have an
appointment in Cutchogue between 10 and 1!.
MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
problems with fire rescue
Barring any
and emergency, I'll
be over after 11 if it's alright with you?
MR. ZORY: Okay, great. Number 60 Wicks.
That would be the right way to approach it, I
think. The other --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. ZORY: The attorney also said that
they would be willing to hook me up to water,
Town water, so as not to have problems with
wells and, you know,
also a possibility.
sanitary systems. That's
I have to get that in
writing and the amount,
Saturday around ll-ish,
dandy with me.
too. So I'll see you
that would be fine and
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not sure I can
help you, is there anything else you would
like from this Board? You want us to recess
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this action for the particular purpose of
bringing in a professional to testify?
MR. ZORY: It's possible, yeah, L have
Richard Abbotelli the appraiser, he's a
licensed appraiser and he
me a letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
said he would give
Okay.
MR. ZORY: Stating that, you know, it
would be a detriment to my property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, so you
want us to close this hearing pending the
receipt of that letter?
MR. ZORY: Well, I'd like to see you on
Saturday. That would be,
way to go.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
know what you want to do,
I think, the right
I kind of have to
at this point, so
that we know what to do with this hearing and
I'm not putting you on the spot.
MR. ZORY: What would be the reason to
come over Saturday?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
what you're referring to
house that's going to be
affects your property.
I just want to see
in reference to this
setback and how it
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MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have to tell you
that I have been a licensed real estate broker
since 1975. I do not sell real estate in the
Town of Southold and I have not sold real
estate since 1986. Okay, I hold a license for
the sole purpose of holding a license in my
job that I work for with the County of
Suffolk. This has absolutely nothing to do
with this --
MR. ZORY: Okay, I would like to see you
on Saturday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
with Mr. Zory, yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
to go there, too.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
come with me. Okay.
MR. ZORY: Um-hmm, fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we'll
there and I just want to see what
referring to.
MR. ZORY: Okay.
you,
I'm going to meet
I would be willing
Michael is going to
both be
you're
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By my statement to
Mr. Zory, we are definitely, I am
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definitely going to request the Board increase
the side yard on the particular side that
you're concerned about.
MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is basically all
I can do. The house, excuse me, meets most of
the other conformity, okay, based on the
zoning ordinance as we have it today. I don't
want to lead you down a ivory path, but shall
we close the hearing pending the receipt of
the letter?
MRS. MOORE:
because I don't
No, please leave it open
want any testimony or comments
or observation without an
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: May I
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
opportunity to
respond to that?
Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: As far as I'm concerned,
there will be no such further observations.
MRS. MOORE: I don't know, I --
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is that I
don't see that as a reason not to close the
meeting subject to an inspection -- no,
subject to anything in writing. I don't see
that as a reason for keeping the meeting open,
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frankly.
MRS. MOORE: I
submitting from Mr.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
appraiser.
MEMBER SIMON:
don't know what he's
Abbotelli --
Submitting?
The letter.
What letter?
From the real estate
Yes, the hearing would be
open
even
subject to the receipt of that letter.
BOARD ASST.: And a reply or not?
MEMBER SIMON: Period. I don't think so.
BOARD ASST.: No?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
established that yet,
Well we haven't
so the question is
if he is going to receive it, we would then
give you ample time to reply to that letter.
MRS. MOORE: I would hope you would.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course, but I
mean we haven't determined yet if he is going
to receive that letter and I'm not -- you
know, that's the problem.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's why I didn't
want you to close it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, of course.
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MRS. MOORE: Because I don't know what
he's gonna say in that letter.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can't we do that? I
don't really feel like I need to return
because I'm the assigned member, as a
consequence I did a very, very thorough
inspection of the properties on both sides of
that site.
MRS. MOORE: Oh good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I know exactly where
your house is and what fencing is there, what
shrubs are there, where the existing setback
is, you know, if my colleagues want to go and
revisit that, that's totally appropriate
because we will collecnively deliberate.
That's why I asked about alternative relief on
that side yard because even though they're
increasing it, they are also making it taller.
So there is a relationship that's very valid
and they're stepping it back to meet the Code.
So I think we should, you know, if you're
alright with this, I would propose that we
close the hearing subject to receipt and
response of this letter.
Should you choose to submit -- do you
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wish to submit that letter from Mr. Abbotelli?
MEMBER SIMON: He doesn't have to.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You don't have to, I'm
asking you if you want to.
MR. ZORY: I would prefer to have you
come to the property.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
happen anyway.
Well, that's gonna
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's already set.
MR. ZORY: That's set.
MEMBER SIMON: Your letter has to do with
appraisal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's different. Do
you wish to submit such a letter or not?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think what we
should do is rather than cause this man any
difficulty then we probably should recess
this.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I comment on that?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes?
MEMBER SIMON: I don't think there's a
difficulty as long as we make it clear.
If we were to close this hearing subject
to the receipt of that letter, you don't even
have to decide whether you're going to ask for
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that letter. If we receive it, we will take
it into consideration at our hearing, but we
also --
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) counsel to
reply.
MEMBER SIMON: No, we don't.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, we do.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: I mean --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that's only
fair.
MEMBER SIMON: It's often, I mean I
understand the zealous representation makes it
reasonable for this, but we often close
hearings subject to the receipt of an
additional piece of information and, to me,
this is just like that and we don't --
[Tape change]
MEMBER SIMON: I think you need an
argument to say why this particular subject --
subsequent submission requires an opportunity
to reply, whereas in general we don't require
it. I would ask you --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just comment on
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that? Can I just comment? If you, this
Board, members of this Board are going out to
meet with this gentleman on Saturday, I think
the applicant has every right to a report on
that meeting, okay, and also has a right to
respond to any conclusions you may draw from
that meeting. That's what I think Ms. Moore
is trying to get. I mean, why are you going
out on Saturday and meeting with the neighbor
and not giving the opportunity --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's real simple.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- to the person who is
the application to respond to anything that
you may, any reason or comments you may have
based on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's real easy,
Jim, I'm asking permission to go on his
property. That's all I'm doing.
MEMBER SIMON: He doesn't have to be
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He doesn't even
have to be there if he doesn't choose to be
there.
MR. ZORY: I choose to be.
MEMBER SIMON: He doesn't have to be
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there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we're going
with two people so it's not a meeting and
Michael and I have no intentions of discussing
anything with this nice, fine gentleman who
has come before us other than the fact we're
going to walk into his rear yard or his side
yard, whatever it is, and to see the property
next door. There is no need for additional
testimony. There is no need for an additional
report, there is no need for an additional
anything other than the fact that this
gentleman is giving us permission to walk on
his property of which we would ordinarily not
do, okay, without his permission and that is
it.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, just to say --
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's not what I heard,
but what I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is what I'm
doing.
MEMBER SIMON: That's what he meant.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so as long as this
gentleman is clear that you will not have a
conversation with him concerning this
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application --
MR. ZORY:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. ZORY: But
we can discuss --
MEMBER DINIZIO:
You're talking about me --
Right.
I'm going to meet him so
No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we can't
discuss it.
MEMBER SIMON: You know, Jim has a point,
if we were going to meet with a neighbor, then
we have to keep this open, but if we're just
going to do what we commonly do between the
hearing and the special hearing and the
special meeting, i~'s not at all unusual for
us to go to visit the property again to look
at it and to look at the neighborhood. We
never have to file a report about that, but if
we agree to meet with a neighbor then it is,
Jim, is right, that would be another state of
affairs.
BOARD ASST.: Then it's only a site visit
without any conversation?
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's basically
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what it is.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay.
Do you agree to that?
MR. ZORY: I guess I'm going to have to.
They're not going to have a meeting, I guess.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's again, I don't
see any reason, I don't see any compelling
reason why it still can't be held open
regardless of that. If the applicant is
asking for that, I don't under -- what does
the Town hurt by having another hearing if the
applicant wishes to have another hearing?
MRS. MOORE: Well, let me clarify, if it
is just going to be the Board members going
over to take a look, I have no objection.
That's part of your obligation to --
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- our application to just
take a look. My objection was that as he
understood, that (inaudible) which was
essentially a sidebar meeting at the property,
which we would have
respond to or hear.
MEMBER SIMON:
no opportunity to either
Right.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So my concern was that he
might say something that you would want to ask
us about and we'd have no opportunity to
respond.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
MRS. MOORE: So if this is just you going
out and inspecting it together or
independently, certainly I have no objection.
If he submits something in writing I want an
opportunity to respond to that because it's an
opinion on the value of his property, I would
like similarly to have somebody with some
credentials to evaluate whether it's
legitimate or not. So that we can -- I'm
willing to do whatever it is expeditious to
end this hearing. I don't want to prolong it
either for my client's costs (inaudible)
everything spelled out on the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to do, sir?
MR. ZORY: You can come to the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
So, and we will afford you the right to
submit a letter if you so want to from Mr.
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Abbotelli. We would appreciate, however, that
that letter be forthcoming.
MR. ZORY: In a week.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By the 10tn of
November of which point on the 12th of November
we will submit that letter to Ms. Moore, if we
receive it, only if we do and that's --
MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- basically the
situation. Okay and that's the story.
MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And now I'm going
to give you the whys and wherefores of what we
do, okay, and this is going to be the last
conversation for this hearing hopefully.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Want to listen to
this one second? Okay, the reason why we ask
permission to go on people's property is
because we had an application in Orient that
was brought by a neighbor against a neighbor's
property. We went out to that neighbor's
property where the application was brought
against and we walked on the property not
realizing that we needed permission to walk on
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that property because of the application being
brought by the next door neighbor. So that is
the reason why we ask you, if you're there,
you're there, if you're not there we're asking
you permission to go on the property.
MR. ZORY: You have my permission.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, I have a question
it's a question that hasn't been answered yet.
I know that we would give a copy of the
appraiser's letter
of November to the
Moore, by the 12th,
if it comes in by the l0th
applicant's attorney, Ms.
however, if Ms. Moore wants
to respond in writing, how many days after
that will --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She has five
business days.
BOARD ASST.: Five business days
l0th or --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: From the 12th
because the 11th is Veteran's Day.
MRS. MOORE: Five business days. Okay.
(Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for
clearing that up.
I thank you.
MR. ZORY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you.
Just to clarify some issues. When you go
out there you will see that Mr. Zory faces
Wicks Road. His rear yard is my client's
property. We -- and I was trying to explain
to him out in the hallway that we would love
to build our house where the existing house
is. We would have loved to be able to utilize
the foundation or any part of that house, but
we couldn't, so unfortunately once you, as you
know, you take down a house now you must
conform to as many of the regulations as are
applicable. Unfortunately, because there's
public water on Grathwohl, but he's not
connected to public water and there's a well,
there, the Health Department regulations
require that my -- I call it the blackmail
rule -- but Health Department forces an
applicant where their sanitary is less than
150 feet from a neighboring well and it can be
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properties where everybody is developed the
same way and in this case as we had it Mr.
Zory's own sanitary system is closer to his
well than our proposed sanitary system, the
Health Department regulations require us to
formally offer Mr. Zory to hook him up to
public water.
My client is a young man, this is going
to be a significant cost to him, nonetheless,
if he wants to have it this is one of the
requirements of the Health Department. So I
explained to Mr. Zory, I had a letter
prepared, but rather than send it out of the
blue since he was here I tried to explain the
process. It has nothing to do with this Board
because sanitary issues are the Health
Department and not you, we certainly -- I do
want you to appreciate that as part of this
process the application is trying to do the
right thing and being forced to do the right
thing wherever possible and, unfortunately,
all our preexisting lots have more impact than
coming to the Zoning Board for a variance, we
have other impacts where we have to conform to
other regulations, this being one of them. So
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when he mentioned we are offering to hook him
up to public water and so on, that is one of
the requirements the Health Department has and
the cost of it, we don't know for sure, but
it's going to be $2500.00 to whatever. We
don't know what that is yet.
MEMBER SIMON: May I ask a question? Is
it a rule that we must hook up to public
water?
MRS. MOORE: No, I said to him that if he
-- no. We must offer.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, but he doesn't have
to --
MRS. MOORE: He doesn't -- if he says I
want to keep my well young man keep your
mohey, I don't need your money --
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
Right.
it would be lovely.
But why is it a burden on
him to receive an offer which he can refuse?
MRS. MOORE: It's not a burden on him.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not a burden.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I thought that you
were complaining that was a burden on your
client.
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MRS. MOORE: No, I was complaining it's a
burden on my client.
MEMBER SIMON: Why is it -- it's a burden
on your client because?
MRS. MOORE: Because he has an existing
house, he has an existing sanitary, Mr. Zory's
own sanitary is closer to his well, but the
Health Department regulations regardless of
all those facts are that when we put in a new
sanitary we must conform to 150 foot rule when
lots are only 50 foot wide. So that's the --
the burden is multiple burdens here, but the
cost to my client is an added cost. He raised
the issue of the well to sanitary setback and
I just tried to explain what it was all about.
Also, when you -- I tried to explain to
Mr. Zory that if we could have kept the house
where it was and we built two stories we would
have actually, at least in my view, we would
have been blocking more of the waterfront
views. Where we are building further back is
in Mr. Zory's side, rear yard and again you
pointed out we are not -- views are not
(inaudible) easements. The Board would be --
it would be inappropriate to deny this
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application because Mr. Zory is complaining
that his view of the house -- he doesn't see
the house now and he will see it later. It's
a -- it's Mr. Zory's rear yard. Again, his
house when you look at it for yourself, his
backyard is our side yard and unfortunately
that's the way these lots are all developed.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is Mr. Zory's
address, again? What?
MR. ZORY: 60 Wicks Road.
MRS. MOORE: It's on the survey,
his name
actually appears on our survey.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good.
MRS. MOORE: So you should have no
problem finding it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, so keep all those
things in mind when you do go and inspect that
there, again, we can certainly, you know, the
alternative relief you're considering of
whether we push away from his property line or
not won't impact what he's concerned with,
which is the fact that he's going to see the
second story of the house, whether it's as it
is now 2-1/2 feet or as it's proposed 5, or
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even if it's proposed as -- even if it were
switched and it were 10, and the 5 were on the
other side, he'd still see the same house.
It's not -- his objection is the fact that
he's going to be seeing a house now where he
does not see one now. So keep that in mind.
Please keep in mind that the impact on my
client to increase the setbacks for him are
going to be more onerous on my client in
design and setback than it would be to Mr.
Zory's impact of a view. So keep that in
mind.
That's all I have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I'll make a motion closing the
hearing pending the receipt of any information
from actually we'll refer to it as either
client and --
BOARD ASST.: I thought you said the
appraisal.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, you want to
make it specific?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll make it
specific just for the appraisal. Okay and the
time limits thereupon in reference to -- you
want me to restate that?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, just the dates.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, he would have
to submit it by 3:00 on the l0th of November at
which point on the morning of the 12th we would
submit it to you and you have five business
days after that to reply. So the clock
wouldn't start ticking until Thursday so you
would have until the following Wednesday.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you. Okay, so that
five business days is Wednesday, the --
BOARD ASST.: The 17th.
MRS. MOORE: The 17th?
BOARD ASST.: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. I offer
that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6229 - Estate of Susan Deleo
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MEMBER SIMON:
"Requested is a Lot Waiver under Section
280-11 to unmerge two properties based on the
Building Inspector's August 6, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval, citing Section 280-10. The two
properties involved in this unmerger request
are shown on the Map of Eastern Shores as:
(1) CTM 33-2-27, vacant land, with a
nonconforming area of 21,289 square feet, and
(2) CTM 33-2-28 with a house, of a
nonconforming area of 20,602 square feet for
CTM 33-2-28. Location: 1225 and 1135 Green
Hill Lane, Greenport."
Now, Mr. Yakabowski has done a fine job
of explaining a rather complicated history
about attempts to avoid being here today,
essentially, and I would like to hear more
from him.
MR. YAKABOWSKI:
afternoon. Firstly,
Eastern Shores when created was comprised of
Good morning or good
of course the map of the
lots which conformed to zoning laws at that
time. The situation we find ourselves in
today is that Ms. Deleo's parents, Mr. and
Mrs. Loggin (sic), purchased the home parcel
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in 1979 and in both names, and purchased the
vacant parcel number 27 in Mrs. Loggin's (sic}
name a year later. Mr. Loggin (sic) died in
March of '99, his estate passed to his wife,
so technically at that point, based on
existing code, there's a merger. Ms. Loggin
(sic) died barely a year later and the estates
or estate, at that time, passed to the Loggin
(sic) children, one of which was Ms. Deleo.
In settling the family estate, brothers
and sisters got cash, Ms. Deleo and her then
husband got the home and what they then
thought was the vacant lot. When the
distribution took place they were not
represented by counsel and, as you can see
form the report I submitted and also my
historical, at the time of the distribution
the executor and the executor's counsel drew
two deeds. One to Wayne and Susan for the
home parcel and, unfortunately, the second
deed issued the same day, same table, again to
Wayne and Susan.
Mr. and Mrs. Deleo prior to her death had
been involved in a -- I'll use the word
bitter, probably the best way to put it,
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matrimonial, they were estranged, not
divorced, but a year or two after, and while
they were still together, they perceived a
problem with owning both lots in both names.
They went back to the original attorney who
had represented the estate at the time and
said is this a problem. He says no it's not a
problem, I'll just issue a new deed, which was
done and, of course, it doesn't solve the
problem, but at least that's the way it sat
until just prior to her death when we
concluded after some years the matrimonial
dispute by executing a stipulation of
settlement which comprised -- part of which
comprised of all of the land, the house parcel
as well as the vacant parcel passing to Ms.
Deleo and she, just to give you the history,
signing a deed to a parcel that they had owned
in Babylon over to her husband as part of the
property settlement.
She died twenty days later. When the
deeds were issued as from the settlement I was
her matrimonial counsel, I perceived a problem
relating to the issue of single and separate.
They were receiving separate tax bills, but
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obviously having practiced in this area for
some time I -- so as part of the negotiations
and discussions the deed that was issued for
the house parcel, the vacant parcel being in
her name nothing could be done at this point,
but 99 percent to Ms. Deleo, 1 percent to
myself to try to preserve whatever we can
preserve.
In addition to having served as her
matrimonial counsel, I also am the named
executor in her will. So this is why I'm here
both in my capacity as executor and as my 1
percent as a nominee essentially, I'll be very
candid with you, I don't have a 1 percent
stake in the money, I am trying to preserve it
as a nominee or straw man as they say.
I think we meet all of the tests of the
waiver of merger, to be very candid and not
take up all of your time. You have the
surveys. The, except for the land, and you
know what's happening with real estate at this
moment, three years prior to her death, two
and a half years prior to her death, she told
me she was offered $350,000.00 for the vacant
lot, which she turned down.
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We now have, as you
the home and parcel,
see, a contract to
but the prospective
a
sell
purchaser in bargaining the deal said I want
vacant lot there. That's my deal. My
situation is that Ms. Deleo left a step-
daughter. Who is now -- I put forth the
turkey in the application, she is now 14. She
is the sole beneficiary of her estate. I am
trying as best I can to preserve as much of
the estate as I can to reduce it to liquidity
and have it for this young lady or as much as
we can. I've told you what the hospital bill
is. She spent 52 days in Eastern Long Island
without the benefit of health insurance. I
owe the County for back taxes. I'm going to
owe the Town of Southold $7000.00 at the
beginning of December for the new upcoming
taxes depending on how much they're raised or
not raised. I owe LIPA, I owe the water. I
owe doctors. The estate is burdened by
substantial debt.
We have signed contracts to the
gentleman, he hasn't received his mortgage
commitment yet, but he's held off pending a
determination here. Obviously, if we are not
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successful in this waiver of merger my
contracts are null and void and, according to
my realtor, my prospective realization of
monies is probably at least $100,000.00 less
than what we have now in our contract.
Any questions I'll be happy to answer.
MEMBER SIMON: First, thank you very
much. As you know, there have been more than
one change in the waiver
would have had they come
affected this property.
of merger law, which
later or come earlier
Based on very
equitable consideration and, in particular,
one of the ones was to eliminate -- to allow
waiver of merger when there was merger by
death, which is what happened in the original
case and that was to have physical conditions
that are involved in this. Luckily, it's -- I
see this is one of the relatively few cases
where we can exercise discretion, we as a
Board without at risk of being sued by either
side on this because it is a discretionary
matter, but the equity then we're almost
required to consider the equitable (inaudible)
including some of those that have been
eliminated the last draft, such as the
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hardship, which might have been made very
effectively in this particular case.
Given that, I find the story and what, as
far as I can tell, were absolute good faith
efforts to try to work around a combination of
changes of law and insufficient aid of
counsel, at various times, so we have a
situation where I would at this point all I
would like to hear are there any arguments to
be made that this merger should not be waived
because the arguments I think are pretty
strong.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Well, as you know, I had
served all of the adjoining owners and you
have the receipt cards (inaudible). I was
there in a rainstorm making sure he signed his
name there. Honestly, I really do feel this
is one of the classic situations where a
waiver of merger should be granted. I'll be
very candid with you. I know I'm deeply
interested obviously, but having worked in the
zoning field in this town and adjacent towns
for a long, long time now, I think this is a
classic situation where relief should be
granted, to put it very candidly. I have had
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no -- received no adverse comments from any of
the adjoining owners unless there is someone
here today who is
BOARD ASST.:
your file.
MR. YAKABOWSKI:
Kowalski.
interested.
We have an extra copy in
I have an extra, Ms.
BOARD ASST.: Oh, okay.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well I think your
arguments are very compelling. I thought,
even if the merger law had not changed --
MR. YAKABOWSKI: So was the amendment
adopted?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Oh, it was adopted.
See
I made an argument based on what I thought the
amendment was going to be, I {inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: I was told initially
that it wasn't adopted.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It was adopted, So
you're even closer.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Well, then I think we're
even better.
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MEMBER SIMON: What I was suggesting
before is in the past in other cases there
were applications for waiver of mergers which
looked to me as though they were pretty
compelling by all the standards, but then I
realized as I looked at the law after talking
with counsel is that this was legally the
wrong decision to grant the waiver under these
circumstances -- those legal
longer exist.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
is essentially built out, the
improved and the umimproved are
think, of the lots there.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I believe that
conditions no
The subdivision
two lots, the
typical, I
you can
meet every criteria to waive this merger, in
my opinion. So I really, you know, we've all
been there. We've seen the site and know the
neighborhood and I really don't have any
questions. I think you've been very thorough
in your background and in your written
application.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Thank you.
MEMBER OLIVA: I read it very carefully,
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I thought you did a great job.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No comment?
MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I don't have
any comment either.
MR. YAKABOWSKI: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we'll see
what other -- anybody else like to speak for
or against this application?
Okay seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6198 Steve and Olga Tenedios
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for Variances under Sections
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
June 30, 2008 amended Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed new dwelling after
removal of the existing building(s) for
placement on a new location with pilings or
other foundation after house is elevated, and
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a proposed enlargement to connect the
relocated house to the existing garage. The
property has zero buildable land, being on a
sea side of the Coastal Erosion Hazard Line.
The Building Inspector's reasons for
disapproving the building permit application
are that the proposed construction will be:
(1} less than 40 feet on a front yard; (2)
less than 15 feet for a single side yard
setback, (3) less than 35 feet total side yard
setbacks and (4} lot coverage exceeds the code
limitation of 20 percent (100 percent lot
coverage for zero buildable land area).
Location of Property: 1625 North Sea Drive,
Southold; CTM 1000-54-4-18 (adjacent to dunes
and Long Island Sound)."
Okay, this is a fairly complex the range
of variances given the particular site on
which this existing dwelling is located. I
have a number of questions. We also have of
course a full LWRP report, we have -- I've
just gotten a copy of your initial response to
the LWRP and I need to certainly review it.
I think before us -- well, let's just put
it this way, let me answer with the numbers.
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The front yard setback as proposed is 39.6
feet, the code requires 40. The single side
yard setback is 9.6 feet, the code requires
15. Total side yard setbacks are 20.83 feet,
the Code requires 35 feet. Lot coverage, the
code requires maximum of 20 percent because
it's sitting on essentially beach, it's within
the Coastal Erosion Hazard Zone, the lot
coverage has been determined to be 100
percent.
I think of great concern here is the
description in your application between the
differences as defined by the Building
Department and a minor addition. In other
words, you're proposing to suggest that you're
removing some walls, keeping others. It's not
a demo, it is a reconstruction and addition,
and that your additions constitute a non-major
addition as opposed to a major addition that
the Section 111 allows for non-major
additions. So what we're really looking at
are issues of how much reconstruction or
deconstruction we're talking about.
Now, I've reviewed these plans more
thoroughly, looking at the walls that are
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being proposed to be removed all interior
walls are gone. We're talking about a couple
of walls on the existing garage remaining and
some walls on the exterior to the what would
be the east and there's a -- it would appear
that there are substantial alterations and
frequently we have before us situations where
the suggestion is that this is a
reconstruction or a renovation and the walls
ere gone.
So let's not mince semantics about
whether it's a reconstruction or a demo. If
it's gone, it's gone. It has to be rebuilt
the same wall is taken down and rebuilt rather
than simply sistered or something like that,
it's gone. So I think what I'm going to want
to hear and probably it's going to take
another hearing to do that and I'll just shut
up in a second and let you make your
presentation.
MRS. MOORE: No,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that's quite alright.
I think what we really
need is to hear from the Building Inspector
testimony as to how he reached the
determination that this was a demo and
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alteration versus a non-major addition. So I
-- that's one thing that I would certainly
like to hear. Having said those things, I'd
like to turn this over to you now.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I will hopefully get
to those points, but I do want to start at the
beginning so we understand what's going on.
We started this process first in the
Southold Town Trustees because prior to the
redefining of the Code with respect to
buildable, nonbuildable, we had already
started this application and began with the
Trustees where we -- right about the time that
we were ready to submit this application there
was another application we had all been
involved in which is the Adrulos case that
you're familiar with that was because the
Trustees understood certain aspects of the
construction we didn't want to have that
misunderstanding so we wanted to be very clear
on what our obligations
different obligations.
applied these different,
were under all the
So that when you
and I don't want to
say conflicting cause they all have a common
goal which is taking existing structures and
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making them conforming, so if you understand
that philosophical bent of all our
regulations, that's the theory behind this.
We started with the Trustees, like I
said, and we described to them, we gave them
the same plans. We described and I'll have
Joe Fischetti come and testify with respect to
what we explained as far as the aspects, the
elements of construction, so that when the
construction was taking place after we got the
permit there was no misunderstanding because
if we have -- we have to comply with the
several regulations.
To begin with, the existing house right
now is nonconforming with respect to FEMA and
New York State Building Code. So when any
house along North Sea Drive -- they all have
the common problem that's why you'll see all
the homes I gave you that exhibit that you'll
have an opportunity certainly to review more
carefully, I gave the Trustees based on the
meeting we had with them where Jim actually
remembers when I think it was the (inaudible)
house that had burnt down and there was a
reconstruction and what the permit process was
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with that.
We have a similar situation here, which
is taking an existing house, and the New York
State Building Code, Mike Verity would not
allow us to invest much money into this house
without making it conform because that is the
regulation. When you start moving to conform
to the current regulations, the first one
being FEMA, the house must be elevated and
placed on piles. In order to do that and
preserve the house under another set of
regulations, the Coastal Erosion Hazard Law,
we have to go through this contortion of
raising -- getting a house mover to pick up
the house in -- you know, as it is.
In this case, we have the original house
in one part and the older, the garage addition
that was done at a later date, connected by
decking, that has to be picked up, moved out
of the way as it is in full, shoot the pilings
into the ground, build a new frame and this is
where Joe would certainly be more -- will
elaborate on that and then place the house on
a conforming FEMA foundation. That is a
tremendous undertaking and we wanted right
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from the beginning that this is how it has to
be and I don't know, because I wasn't
involved, all the houses along North Sea Drive
they had similar -- they all had to similarly
comply with FEMA, but whether they also had to
pick up the house or they were able to
demolish and rebuild, I don't know for sure, I
think they had an easier time because either
people didn't follow the regulations a certain
way, it's been determined a certain way,
whatever the reasoning be, the end result is
that we are trying to bring the house into
conformity.
So we now have FEMA we must conform with.
So FEMA being the foundation and the elevation
of the foundation, now we also have the New
York State Building Codes. New York State
Building Code says this original structure
built in the 1950s, maybe '60s, has all
aspects of it are nonconforming, inadequate
energy code, inadequate electricity,
inadequate everything. It is heated and has a
CO, it's a full CO. So all the structures
here are legal and have Certificates of
Occupancy; however, any house, as you know,
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regardless of where it sits when it has
improvements made to it the New York State
Building Code requires that you make the house
more conforming and bring it
Building Code standards.
So now the house itself,
up to State
now that it's
been put on the FEMA compliance foundation,
now we have to work on the house and, again,
I'll have Joe speak in terms of specifics and
the drawing he gave you is what we had
presented to the Trustees, again, and I
described it very carefully. Joe and I said
sat together and I said, Joe, help me out here
so we don't have a -- Abdulos problems which
is these are the steps that we are going to
have to go through. The Trustees understood,
everybody seemed to understand what our
process was going to be.
Now, throw in -- we solved FEMA, we solve
New York State Building Codes. Low and
behold, the Town redefined the buildable land
definition and now any activity seaward of the
Coastal Erosion line is preexisting
nonconforming, it's a nonconforming situation.
The line as it was drawn here and everybody is
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going through the -- those that are already
existing, God bless them, they're out of it,
but everybody who has similar homes has this
problem now, which is we now have to,
regardless of any nonconforming setback, side
yards, front yards, whatever, it is
nonconforming per se because the entire
structure has been being nonconforming by
virtue of being seaward of the Coastal
Erosion.
So now we apply Coastal Erosion
definitions to this project and the -- when
you speak in terms of the degree of
improvement, Coastal Erosion is very clear and
it is -- it protects when the legislation was
adopted there were certain protections to
existing structures to being able to renovate
reconstruct, it even says, includes in the
language reconstruct existing structures
because there was a recognition -- there's
always, as in any regulation, don't hurt the
guys that are already there, but you guys are
going to be hurt by having to conform to even
more stringent standards.
When you apply the Coastal Erosion Hazard
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law, the law specifically says you define what
is permissible per se, which is the expansion
up to 25 percent is considered to be a minor
structure that's not -- that's how it's
defined regardless of subjective opinions or
major, minor, that's
Code.
So when, again,
Tenedios and I said
how it's defined in the
we went back to Mr.
I know that you're seeing
these beautiful homes here, you have wonderful
expectations of a beautiful home here. We are
very limited by the definition of the Coastal
Erosion and we have to analyze this in terms
of how much you can expand this. You can't
expand these houses some of the pictures
you'll see look like houses that were expanded
as footprints almost double or triple what
they were, whether it was right or wrong at
the time. We are following what I believe is
the interpretation or at least the definition
in the Code and the 25 percent of existing
ground area coverage. So I have to get Meg
Corwin to very carefully identify what we have
there, what is ground area coverage and within
the bounds of that limitation are the
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architect has given designs with no more than
25 percent expansion.
Expansion the way Coastal Erosion Hazard
Law has defined expansion is ground area
coverage. So they don't care -- of you meet
FEMA first step -- horizontal is not the
issue, it's ground area coverage. So we took
-- we have here what is before you, the
existing houses -- or pardon me the existing
house. The two buildings that create this
house, the two structures, with the connected
decking and then we have a lot of cement,
because back in the '60s everybody used
cement. We are keeping our expansion,
limiting the expansion to the 25 percent and
where we have already and you saw from the --
it was staged for you so you could see the
house when it's elevated. We have no access
around the house except for what we build.
Right now the house has access with cement
walkways around. You lift it up we need some
kind of walkway around it. You see that
pretty much if you look up and down the street
every house is pretty much designed the same
way because you're up that high. If you look
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around there are multiple homes that have the
kind of canopy decking around. That's what we
have done here.
So when we talk about side yard setbacks
we are -- the setbacks that we're asking for
are what is already there and on the east side
what would be the essentially the same
walkway, but with wood around, the decking
around. So if you see the concrete it's
actually cut back a little bit cause the
walkway is a constant four feet and the
concrete kind of juts out a little bit more in
some spots we have the walkway.
So the house itself is remaining as is in
its setback, again, being elevated and being
reconstructed or whatever language you want to
call it whether it's reconstructed,
constructed, demolished, whatever the term is
that you use, this is the process that we have
to go through. So now we've established the
true setback on -- to the right Mr. Bombera
(sic) is going through hell with his own
regulatory process, but we have 11 feet 5
inches, which is the setback there, and again
the only -- the difference between that
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setback, what we have and what we propose, is
the decking and on the southwest side it is as
it is presently, which is at 10.1, well,
because it angles 9.2. So the house expands
on the landward side over concrete again under
Coastal Erosion law
coverage.
So the -- when
you have ground area
this law was originally
adopted their concern, obviously, is
impervious area and this is before they
applied different laws that dealt with it. So
you're covering existing ground coverage.
They don't want to see more ground coverage to
the extent that it can be limited, so that's
how we designed and how we limited this
project.
At this point, I do want to have Joe come
and speak with respect to the structural
elements and what we have to do, for the
record, because, again, it's been to the
Trustees and it's before you and we want to
make sure that when we get, we hope, the
approval to do this
to (inaudible).
MR. FISCHETTI:
that they are all running
Good afternoon, Joe
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Fischetti, professional engineer. How are you
today?
The plans you have in front of you were
done for the Trustees some months ago and the
red lines are the existing walls that will
stay. You'll see green lines, which are new,
and dotted lines on that plan, which are
removed. Pat talked about the process, but
I'll just do it again differently. The garage
itself is now a two-story structure, living
space on the second floor and a garage on the
first floor. We will get a house mover in
there. We're going to actually cut the second
floor off the garage and raise only the second
floor, move that to the front, take the
existing structure, the existing dwelling the
way it is now raise it and move it forward.
I had Davis House Movers out there and we
talked to (inaudible) Davis. We can raise
this and move these houses without damaging
any of the existing vegetation because we have
scrub pines and we can raise it right up above
the pine and bring it right over the top
towards the front. That will give us the room
to build the piles and the structural decking
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that's FEMA compliant. Once those piles and
that decking is complete, we will then bring
the second story of the garage and the home
back in the exact place where they were
originally. We will drop them right on top of
that decking and keep them back there.
So now we are starting anew with the
house compliant up above and then we will
start renovations at that point. So when you
start to look at this page one of the floor
plan with the red and green lines, we will
then start the renovation to attach these two
structures together. One of the items that
Pat talked about about compliance is the high
wind loadings in here, which is a definite
problem in here many times with houses we need
to make sure all these walls comply so there
are many renovations and requirements to the
shear walls or extra plywood that needs to be
done to bring these under compliance. That's
just one additional item that Pat did not talk
about that's very important when dealing with
these kind of structures. Otherwise that's
the process that will take place.
You'll see the second floor plan is all
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basically new and again we're doing this,
we're raising the house because we're trying
to keep compliant with the footprint
requirement for the Coastal Zone Erosion
requirements for increase.
If there aren't any questions --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How does it affect
the elevation of the house in reference to
height, maximum height for zoning?
MR. FISCHETTI: Truthfully, I don't
remember -- the
11, we now have
requirements at
existing finished floor is at
to be 2 feet above the FEMA
height, if I remember
correctly. We are at 11 now, that is 11, so
we need to be 2 feet above 11 so the bottom of
all the structures have to be 13. So the
finished floor would probably be -- we're
keeping the existing floor structure, building
new floor structure underneath there, so we're
probably -- the finished
be 2 feet higher than 13
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is done, how high will
you know?
MRS. MOORE: I --
floors will probably
so probably 15.
When the whole job
the structure be, do
that is on the plans,
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but let me point out that regardless of
pilings and so on the Building Department
requires that a house cannot exceed the 35
feet. So let's say that you put piles and
you're at the maximum -- what is that 137
MR. FISCHETTI: It's 15.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have to -- 137 15
pardon me, the Building Department doesn't
start our count at that point for a normal
house. We actually have to take the entire
structure and not exceed 35 feet in total. So
but I do have the elevation. I have, I guess,
one version of the drawings, which has the
very peak of the roof at 36.5. So that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the roof --
MRS. MOORE: It's in your file.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, I understand.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. So that the mean is
actually -- yeah, everything is in compliance
because the mean is 27.10 is the mean roof
height. So the peak is -- yes, just double
checking, it's 27, right?
MR. FISCHETTI:
UNIDENTIFIED:
variance?
(Inaudible
There's no need for a
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MRS. MOORE: No, there's no need for a
variance, but you're asking for volumes. I
understand.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While we have Mr.
Fischetti there --
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the proposal is
obviously the garage is now attached by
decking, that decking is going. So the idea
is to take the volume of the garage and the
volume of the existing house --
MR. FISCHETTI: (Inaudible) the volume
the decking structures.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, move them up, get
them out of the way, the pilings go in and
they're going to go where? Exactly where the
current footprint is?
MR. FISCHETTI: That's what we're doing.
We're going to put the --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to check
because the way the Building Inspector
described it it was not clear. It looked as
though you were moving it to a new location.
MR. FISCHETTI: No.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I want the record to
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reflect pilings are going in to where the
existing house is now. Okay and those
structures will be elevated 13 feet, 15 to the
finished floor and then you build above that.
MR. FISCHETTI: I -- to confirm in
different -- to reiterate in different words,
we will put pilings in. We'll have to put
pilings in for the whole structure that we're
going to do.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FISCHETTI:
Right, right.
The two structures will
then be put back exactly at
where they were when they were left
were never moved and just raised up.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FISCHETTI:
would do it that way.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FISCHETTI:
way cause I can't --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. FISCHETTI:
the same places
as if they
Alright.
If we could do that we
Sure.
But I can't do it that
You can't build the --
We used to be able to --
if this were in
pilings we've raised houses
build the foundations under
another area that wasn't
8 feet and we
it. We lower them
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down, but we can't do that in piles. We gotta
move it out of the way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, that's as I
understood your proposal. I just want to make
sure the record reflects it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before we leave the
piling issue, will we be given a piling plan?
MR. FISCHETTI: You don't have a piling
plan. I don't think there's -- I don't know
what he has, the architect -- they're really -
- basically that has no bearing on anything,
Mr. Goehringer, basically the piling plan may
even change when we start
not design a piling plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
reason why, Mr. Fischetti,
looking at -- I did
Let me give you the
and excuse me,
Leslie, again. The purpose of it is that this
is a grassroots change to a specific area
where you have maybe 40 houses that could be
affected. Okay, if you took the opposite
westerly side also, alright?
want -- I'm going to use this
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay.
So we really
as a model.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So to speak,
alright, and in dealing with that a piling
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plan is very important because my next
question to you would have been are these
piles going to be driven or are they going to
be augered? What kind of disruption to the
land is going to be affected, okay, and I'm
just going to hold that question and let
Leslie go.
MR. FISCHETTI:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay.
Well, he can answer it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good, thank you.
MR. FISCHETTI: Usually these are driven,
we're not going to use auger cause we need
(inaudible) in that area. I haven't had the
piling contractors out there, but I don't see
any reason why these can't be driven.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so you're
going to indicate to us in this plan how the
magnitude of the size of the pilings, meaning
the girth, okay, the length of the pilings and
the amount of the piling that's going to be
protruded into the land.
MRS. MOORE: So in other words a
construction diagram.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, construction.
MR. FISCHETTI: I have no problem doing
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that, again, piles are normally 8 inch, 12
inch piles. Just let me reiterate --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FISCHETTI: Sometimes we use modular
spacings on the piles --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
MR. FISCHETTI: -- depending on what's
here. So how many will be, we did not do a
piling plan. At this point, there's no reason
why we can't do one for you, but it's a
standard piling plan. It wouldn't be anything
out of the ordinary.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The next question, the
now elevated decking around the house, how
high above grade will that be?
MRS. MOORE: The finished is equivalent
to the finished floor. So typically that's
where it is.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: If I read this correct, it's
approximately 9 feet.
MR. FISCHETTI: Above the grade. We
don't have that number.
MR. FISCHETTI: Average existing grade is
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8 and we're talking about --
MRS. MOORE: Here it's 5, oh the
elevation, excuse me.
MR. FISCHETTI: The elevation I just said
was --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Arguably it would be at
the finished flooring.
MR. FISCHETTI: 15 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 15 feet.
MRS. MOORE: I sometimes wonder if the
Building Department sometimes reach their
decisions so literally that if you say 15 and
it's 14 or 13 or 16, I (inaudible). So that's
why approximately might be --
MEMBER WEiSMAN: Approximately 8 feet?
MR. FISCHETTI: No, finished floor is 15
feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Approximately 15 feet?
MRS. MOORE: Above 9 feet.
MR. FiSCHETTI: Abov~ the average ground
now I don't have --
MRS. MOORE: We're talking about
different things. Are you ~alking about
elevation or aoout height --
MR. FISCHETTI: No she asked me how big
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the finished floor --
MRS. MOORE: Right and 15 if finished.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Look what I'm getting at
speaks to character of the neighborhood. Now,
I know that neighborhood very, very well and
I've seen many small cottages built long
before any FEMA or any other kind of
regulations and I've watched properties all
along North Sea in order to comply, they're
all preexisting nonconforming, become
extremely high in the air, look very conflated
in size, even though the law requires it, you
know, and I have -- you know, it does have a
huge impact on changing the character and the
scale of the neighborhood in order to comply
with New York State Building Code and with
FEMA.
MRS. MOORE:
on both sides of
But you actually notice that
the road the new houses on
the south side
with less difficulty because
the water.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. MOORE: But
to be FEMA compliant.
of the road are being built
they're not by
Right.
they are -- they do have
So they are large
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structures that are elevated quite high and
look like normally sized large homes. You
know, they're valuable in that street.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Some of them are much
larger lots for
difference.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
starters, that's one
I mean there's been new
construction along there. There have been
additions, you know, it's a very -- a lot of
change has been going on over a number of
years in what was essentially a whole lot of
vacant property and a lot of cottage.
MRS. MOORE: Keep in mind that they are
half-acre lots as we are a half-acre lot, but
the change to the definition has now made us
completely nonconforming, but they are all --
they were all created of similar -- I would
say yes, there are some that are larger than
others, but on average they're about half-acre
lots in that area. I would say the difficulty
of this parcel or anybody on the north side of
North Sea Drive, the additional regulatory
impact of the water and the beach area and so
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MR. FISCHETTI:
B zone to an A zone,
(inaudible).
Yes, you're going from a
which changes the
MRS. MOORE: Ah, okay.
MR. FISCHETTI: The north side is B zone
and the south side is in the A zone.
(Inaudible) concrete (inaudible) that makes
the house completely different than raising it
up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it certainly does.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you, Joe.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now according to the
Trustees' permit the structure is -- the
existing structure is not to be demolished and
if that does take place
applied for.
MRS. MOORE: Right,
a new permit has to be
remember that they're
-- that we went through these steps with them
so that we would all understand that
demolition is not what we described or what we
described is not demolition. Now, what the --
part of the problem here is that each Board
has their own definition of demolition. It's
a little bit of subjective -- what the
Trustees' subjectively believe demolition is
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versus Zoning Board and what you believe
because you've had more experience dealing
with (inaudible) structures. For the Trustees
it's a relatively short time that they've been
dealing with reconstruction of existing homes.
Whereas the Building Department might in fact
call this a demolition even though we are
taking great pains and great expense to
preserve the structure and put it up on piles.
So my -- and when I had this meeting we
were all present with Mike Verity and the
Trustees, we all kind of said, Mike, you know,
call it what you want, and he might call it
demolition, we want to be sure that you're all
looking at the same plan so that we don't have
a project that you give us a building permit
even though it says we're going to do
everything here or I get the permits from the
Trustees in hand or you and so and give them
all to the Building Department and I don't
have a miscommunication at that end. So we
have so many, we have three different Boards
ultimately the Building Department, excuse me,
and I want to be sure. That's why when you
asked for the piling plan it is -- you know,
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he doesn't need to do it right now, but my
theory is do it right now. I'd rather have
you have a piling plan because Building
Department will then know we specifically
talked about a piling plan and we had one, but
it was not an engineered one. So we're going
to make sure that it's an engineered plan.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, when you look at
the green, the dotted and the pink, okay,
let's make it real simple on here, both in
terms of the floor plan, the second floor
which is totally new, the first floor which
has little fragments of wall on the east and
the front elevation and mostly window, but two
walls let's say on the existing garage
remaining, if you calculate approximately the
percentage of walls that will remain relative
to walls that would be built new, and on top
put a second floor new construction, how that
can be described as a minor addition --
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Are you talking about
because it's not ground floor?
MRS. MOORE: Exactly. Coastal Erosion
Law has a definition in the law and it talks
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specifically of how you calculate a major
versus a minor addition.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) 25 percent
expansion of the ground area. I understand
that.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm looking at the fact
that this house, which is very small is going
to be very big and very high up in the air.
This is mostly new construction, which is
probably why I believe the Building Inspector
called it a demolition, but that's why I said
so we're all very clear on this before anybody
proceeds and we have (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't wan~ anybody to
go through that, you or us, the point is I
think it would be advisable for us to hear
from the Building Inspector so that we
understand how he calculated this, how he
determined this as a demolition rather than
the preservation of t~e existing structure and
additions to it, alterations and additions.
MEMBER SIMON: Can I comment?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'll stop now.
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MEMBER SIMON: With regard to demolition,
the Code defines demolition I believe it
doesn't -- it's in 280, I think, but in any
case --
MRS. MOORE: That's been part of the
problem.
MEMBER SIMON: What it is -- in any case,
while for Coastal Erosion purposes demolition
may have a very different meaning from
demolition in other Codes.
MRS. MOORE: The Building Code
(inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Say for example State
Building Code, in the State Building Code.
MRS. MOORE: Uh-huh, right.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, now that's what's
gotta be clear and if they are defining
demolition only with respect to the first
floor, that's interesting if it's consistent
to what the State Building Code, f~ne. But
here's the kind of situation I have in mind,
suppose you have a house that is let's say
1000 square feet on the first floor and you
want to build it to three stories, within the
Building Code, in the process you demolish 74
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percent of the first floor, okay, and you only
leave 26 percent of the first floor and then
you build it above. As far as Coastal Erosion
is concerned, that might not be a demolition.
I don't know whether it would be a demolition
as far as the Town is concerned, but we got a
problem.
The problem is the purposes in the Town
Code of having a rule about demolition does
not have to do primarily with footprint, it
has other reasons. The Coastal Erosion it
does for their own reasons. So this is a hard
problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It has to do with
expansion.
MEMBER SIMON: Expansion and demolition
are separate notions.
MRS. MOORE: Under the definition --
MEMBER SIMON: Under any theory.
MRS. MOORE: No, we -- I think you
pointed out that the problem we have is that
we have multiple layers of regulation. Each
of them defines their terms their own way and
our -- sometimes the problem occurs locally
when the State Building Code definition of
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demolition, in a sense, is contrary or exceeds
what is defined in another regulatory method
or regulatory scheme. So what we're trying to
do is and what I've been trying to point out
from day one to all the Boards is call it
whatever you need to call it. If you call it
demolition, so be it, but as long as we have
all the same drawings and plans before you so
that if the Building Department called it
demolition, but they are following -- they are
looking at and seeing that we are following a
plan that the Trustees and you reviewed --
MEMBER SIMON: I understand --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Michael, let me just
continue on this for one second. I'm sorry,
I'm taking my time back because I want to read
what the LWRP report says for the record.
"There is an inconsistency between what the
Trustees' permit says, which is that it shall
not be demolished and what the Building
Inspector's Notice says, which is that it is
to be demolished."
Our relationship is to the Building
Inspector. We act upon Notice of
Disapprovals. Okay, correspondingly the LWRP
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is now saying that the demolition and
rebuilding of the structure as proposed is not
permissible or attainable by the Southold
Board of Trustees Coastal Erosion Management
area permit. The permit contains a condition
that the structure is not to be demolished,
correspondingly, the demolition and rebuilding
of the structure is not a permitted activity
without primary dune area pursuant to Chapter
111, Coastal Erosion Hazard Area of the
Southold Town Code. So what we have are a
series of contradictions and what -- we need
to act upon the Building Inspector's Notice of
Disapproval. Okay? So that's why I want to
have that testimony. I wanted to either have
that testimony --
MRS. MOORE: No, I think that's very
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: I wanted that Notice to
either have that -- I want that Notice to
either be amended to reflect that this is not
a demolition.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Or we need to --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) his
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determination that it is --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I can't, you know
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. I want Joe to
put on the record that, as a professional
engineer --
MR. FISCHETTI: It is not a demolition.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, now that's very
important, but before we get that in there and
that may be relevant, I don't know the rules.
I'm no engineer. Is that the substantive
question, but before we get to the substantive
question, I may wind up being totally
convinced by you, we have to clear the ground
from all the old terminology of demolition and
what you and Pat are following different
strategies in this. Pat was trying to find a
way to weave between the very conflicting
method -- definitions of demolition so to say
that it's okay substantive notwithstanding and
you're concerned with the substantive and I
think once you --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, he has to draw it up.
MEMBER SIMON: No, no, no. He has to
draw it, but there are standards. You don't
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set the standards of what will save our
coastline or not. You're trying to save the
coastline and you're
standards.
MR. FISCHETTI:
not -- inventing your own
We are following the
Coastal
save the coastline.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FISCHETTI:
just thinking about
perspective, we deal with the
time.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. FISCHETTI:
Zone Erosion law, which is trying to
Right, exactly.
One of the other items
this, again you put it in
physical all the
that Pat says that
Right.
And one of the things
we need to comply. Once we
touch something in a building we have to
comply with it. So if I take a wall and
somebody says that this wall here needs to
comply with the high wind loading. The only
way I can comply with it is I have to take the
stuff out and I've gotta put new plywood and
I've gotta put shear walls and I've gotta make
it work. If I take that wall down and I
rebuild it to make it comply with the high
wind loading, did I demolish that wall?
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MEMBER SIMON: Yeah,
I think your point --
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
construction.
MR. FISCHETTI:
I -- I understand.
I take your point.
But that's new
I rebuilt it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but let's go
back to reality.
MR. FISCHETTI: Again, we're trying to be
as clear and concise here as possible.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's go back to
reality, Mr. Fischetti, and that is in reality
the minute you sever anything from real
property okay it really becomes chattel. It
becomes personal property and it does not have
the integrity of that improvement that existed
before, okay, in reality.
Now, let's take your concept of what you
said and I know that Pat doesn't agree with
this --
MRS.
MOORE: I (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, okay. BuG
let's take your concept of before, and that is
we lift the house up, we put steel girders
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underneath. It's still in place because now
it's suspended on piers on the opposite side.
Okay? The only real reality to save this
house without the word demolition is to take
the roof off and drive pilings inside the
house. Now where have they done that? They
did that in Block Island because that's the
only way they could save the docks. They
ripped all the tops off the docks and they
drove them and that is the only way they could
replace those docks and in this particular
case, it really and I think from the Building
Department's point of view, I think really
that is the only true way of not using the
word demolition.
MR. FISCHETTI: Okay,
your thought process, Mr.
so let me continue
Chairman. So we
call in a house mover. He comes in and he
physically detaches the house from the
foundation, which is I've done many times.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FISCHETTI: And he raises them up on
jacks and he puts cribbing around the side and
that cribbing is basically (inaudible) to the
ground. The difference in what we're doing
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here now it's always attached to the ground
except for what's on cribbing that has wheels
on it. So it is moved out
attached to the ground --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
of place still
But that is the
problem. It's now moved out of place.
MR. FISCHETTI: It's still attached to
the ground. What's the difference if it's
attached by wheels or it's attached by
cribbing?
MEMBER SIMON: You're right. You're
absolutely right.
MR. FISCHETTI: Just because it's moved
has not changed that concept.
MEMBER SIMON: Right. Lawyers are hung
up on language and I'm a lawyer and builders
are hung up on what works and what does not
have negative externalities. Fine. This -- I
would put this in, this is an ancient
philosophical problem. So it's called the
Ship of Thesius. If you have a ship and you
replace every single piece of wood in that
ship, have you demolished the old ship or is
it a new ship? It's the ancient -- and it's a
conundrum.
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So but I think the way to go is what is
going to serve the ultimate purposes. So I
would be happy not to be hung up on -- what
the definition of demolition is or isn't
because then we kind of miss the point.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yes and we've tried our
best to keep the concept of the Coastal Zone
Erosion here. We've so many efforts to keep
it in the same place and to comply with those
efforts which is Coastal Zone again here guys
the problem here with Coastal Zone is if this
house burnt down they couldn't put it back
again. It's horrible. I mean it is horrible.
So I mean it is horrible so we're making every
effort to keep what's here and to work within
the context.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't know where we go
from here, but I think there's got to be a
solution here.
MRS. MOORE: Well, I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need the old
square footage and the new square footage,
number one.
MRS. MOORE: We have that.
MR. FISCHETTI: There are two columns
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here, the existing total lot coverage in the
box on the survey has each individual item and
the square footage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, yeah.
MR. FISCHETTI: And what is proposed,
it's very detailed and they deduct
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mine was covered up
and I forgot about it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Yeah, it changed
because again we have to keep this 25 percent
so we've been running within the bounds of the
Coastal Erosion Law. Do you have the one
that's dated -- I think I gave you a copy of
the Trustees' stamped map.
BOARD ASST.: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, you have it. I tried
(inaudible).
BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we have it. I'm just
curious looking at the numbers on the survey
here it says proposed addition.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, well you know what it
is? Because some of the structures are
overlapping, so you're going to get -- it was
difficult for me, where you're talking about
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you have existing, then you have proposed, but
then you've got your existing over some of the
proposed.
MR. FISCHETTI: Yeah, the hashed lines
and different lines and you can't really do
that because they are over top of each other
so that's why you get --
BOARD ASST.: Right. Under proposed
addition, 1,029 square feet is that the second
floor, the floor above the --
MRS. MOORE: No.
MR. FISCHETTI: No,
it's the total additions.
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
then?
MRS. MOORE:
it's not the above
that's the expansion
I believe that's the
connection and the square footage that's added
to the existing structure.
BOARD ASST.: Okay,
MRS. MOORE: Yeah,
overlapping as I said.
the extension?
but there is some
What I had~made you at
the end, to clarify, was that the increase of
proposed total lot coverage is 675 square feet
or 21 percent over existing total lot
coverage. So that we knew, I mean aside from
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the Coastal Erosion Zone buildable definition
going back to the old description, we are,
when we're dealing with --
BOARD ASST.: That's lot coverage, I was
just wondering what the extension of floor
area is.
MRS. MOORE:
what we --
MEMBER SIMON:
yes.
MRS.
MR.
here.
It is so overlapping that's
Floor area of the house,
MOORE: Floor area --
FISCHETTI: Second floor is not in
BOARD ASST.: No, no, not second floor,
new area to connect or something?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, that's what's on the
survey. Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: That's 1000 square feet
what you're talking about?
MRS. MOORE: Probably, well 19 by 31 and
then 24 by 16, 26 by 16.
shading on the survey I
way to describe it.
It's shaded -- dot
think is the clearer
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, alright.
MRS. MOORE: I ~hink you're right, it
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might be 1,029.
MR. FISCHETTI: That's what it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We're going
to ask the rest of the Board members if they
have any questions. We're going to ask if
anybody else has any questions in the audience
and then we are going to recess the hearing to
-- what's the date?
BOARD ASST.: It's either December 4th or
January 8. December 4th is the November group
because of the holiday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How many hearings
are there?
BOARD ASST.: That's the November group.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: December 4th or
January 8th, we're kind of loaded for December
4, whatever they want.
MRS. MOORE: December 4th is best for us.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We tried. We're trying.
MR. FISCHETTI: Either way for me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll keep it
December 4th at 1:45.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We are at that time
going to hear from the Building Inspector.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: That he testify. I
think I would also -- at that time, I would
also like to hear from the LWRP coordinator,
whose written -- I know that you've responded,
but I think perhaps if they revisit, based on
your testimony, the information you've
provided and they understand that you're
proposing to work within that less than 25
percent ground level area of expansion just as
the Building Inspector may want to revisit or
rethink this thing, I'd like to have you
cooperate somehow with the LWRP coordinator so
that maybe there'll be more consistency in
thinking. You know?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I think if he was
looking -- he didn't recall cause we had LWRP
for the Trustees as well as for you and it's
the same plan before both of you --
MEMBER SIMON: We would like to question
him, too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I would like --
BOARD ASST.: We gave him everything that
you gave us, so --
MRS. MOORE: No, I know, but he didn't
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realize that he had looked at it before or
that he had a packet from the Trustees, I
don't know. I'm guessing because --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, I think my purpose
here is to just in fairness to all parties to
simply cause this is a very significant
precedent that we're about to do here.
MRS. MOORE: Well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The laws have changed
and I have a feeling there's going to be
considerable controversy in the neighborhood
about this project and I want to make sure
that we have all of the agencies that are
involved understanding in an agreed to
understanding of what you're proposing, what
is allowed by law and what variances we need
to act upon, okay, and I think it just
behooves everybody to have all those involved
cooperating and talking to each other, that's
all. So I would like to bring them in --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) building permit
at the end of this process.
process.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS.
It's been a long
Right, right.
MOORE: Mr. Tenedios has,
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unfortunately, been the recipient of,
honestly, there's been, other than the
definition of buildable area there has been no
change to the Coastal Erosion Law --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. I understand
that.
MRS. MOORE: -- even the State Building
Code with respect to how you build, you know,
how you make things conforming.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So looking at the other
homes in the area, they've all gone through
the same process and I think the reason why
this got so much attention is because Bombara
(sic) is going through an application on a
vacant lot. Now, keep in mind --
MEMBER WEISMAN: They're not -- they're
apples and oranges.
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely and that's what I
-- yes, yes. I agree with you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: I agree with you on that
absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And I don't -- look
there's a preexisting nonconforming house
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here.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The applicants have the
right to apply for a building permit to make
improvements to their property. That's --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER WEISHAN: -- done all over that
neighborheod that's not something I'm
questioning.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
HEMBER WEISHAN: What I'm questioning are
the legalities, the parameters of what is
permissible, the impact en character of the
neighborhood, and trying to negotiate all of
those complex things in a thoughtful way that,
you know, can have the least impact possible
but allow the applicants to design the heuse
- home and make it more cenforming and mere
complying, but to do that you really need te
navigate threugh a whele series of --
MRS. MOORE: This has been (inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm also interested
in is whatever decision we make we want it to
be principled not just because some of us
admire principles, but also because we have
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some guidance for future applicants. So not
everything is done as if it's (inaudible all
by itself and has no benefit for future
(inaudible). Otherwise we keep reinventing
the wheel every few months.
MRS. MOORE: I agree with you completely
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okey doke.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody in the
audience?
Okay, hearing no further comments -- 1:30
on December 4.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: Did you say 1:30, before it
was 1:45.
CHAIRMAN
it.
GOEHRINGER:
I know we changed
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, I offer
that as a resolution to recess to November --
to December 4.
MEMBER SIMON: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
HEARING #6186 - Broadwaters LLC
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Strang.
MR. STRANG: Good afternoon. I'd like to
open this afternoon by acknowledging the fact
that I received copies of correspondence that
was forwarded to the Zoning Board of Appeals
and I prepared a response to that. I'll
submit that response which is in written
format to the Board, but I'd just like to very
briefly give an overview of what it contains
for the record.
The first item in that piece of
correspondence has several inaccuracies and
misrepresentations in it. First, the home as
proposed is not in excess of 5,000 square feet
as that particular piece of correspondence
indicates. I gave the Board at the last
hearing a rough analysis, if you will, of the
estimated livable area and that should be a
matter of the record.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you repeat that
here, what it is? We do have it, but would
you just repeat what you estimate the square
footage to be?
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MR. STRANG: I don't have it with me
because honestly I did it on the fly out of --
as the Board made a question, so I believe it
may not be 100 percent correct, but I believe
we had 1800 square feet on the first floor
approximately, we have a half-story above
that, which is about another 1000 square feet
thereabouts, 900 square feet and then there is
a walkout basement and part of that walkout
basement could be developed as livable space.
We didn't assign a number to that because we
don't even know if it's going to be built out.
With that being said, the house is basically a
1-1/2 story Cape-style home and it has a
walkout basement and by definition of the
State Code it is deemed to be a 2-1/2 story
house, albeit from appearances, especially
from Broadwaters Road it appears like a 1-1/2
story traditional Cape style home.
Another inaccuracy that was represented
is we do not have 9-foot high ceilings in the
basement although we could. What was depicted
in our drawings was for an 8-foot high ceiling
and I never did claim that the basement would
be used only for mechanical elements. The
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record again should clearly note that I
indicated part of the basement area could be
used for livable space (inaudible) out and
part of it would be of course also be used for
mechanical areas, utility areas, storage or
whatever the owner so deems he needs.
Just a point again, under that item #1
again from that letter, if as stated the home
were to be built in full compliance with the
second front yard setback, which is from the
paper road known as Crabber's Road, it could
still be basically the same size as we're
presenting in this variance. It would not
necessarily be reduced in size. That's what's
inferred in the letter that you received. So
there's nothing that says -- we could build a
compliant home of the same size that we're
proposing; however, in my opinion it would not
be as attractive. It would be very narrow and
tall and I don't think it would be in keeping
with the neighborhood. That's the reason
behind our presentation and our design.
Moving on to items 2 and 3, quickly,
basically all the issues raised there are
environmental. We had a comprehensive review
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process by the Southold Trustees, all the
environmental issues were reviewed at length,
discussed, mitigated in some instances and
ultimately led to the Trustees granting us a
permit for the site plan that you have in
front of you at this time.
Lastly, item 4, is -- I'm not going to
give that benefit of comment. It's strictly
speculative, inaccurate, inflammatory and it
doesn't, in my opinion, it has no bearing on
this particular action and we hope the Board
will take the same position and disregard
this.
Lastly, the nature of the letter is such
that it infers that I was misrepresenting our
application to this Board and I take exception
to that. I have been before this Board for
many years and I think my record stands. I've
never misled or misrepresented this Board at
any time in any of the applications and as my
comment on that piece of correspondence and
I'll submit here copies of my written letters
to the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So the question
today is where are we.
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MEMBER OLIVA: You did submit, I think, a
letter or evidence that Crabtree (sic) Road no
one has claimed possession of it.
MR. STRANG: We did, yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: They couldn't find the
deed. No one knows.
MR. STRANG: At the Board's request we
did submit the title report, copies of the
deed for the property. I'll leave that up to
the Board to decide how they read it. You
know, we've also, at the Board's request,
submitted an amended site plan that now shows
the onsite drainage sanitary system as well as
a separate map and planting schedule for the
proposed landscaping. I also call to the
Board's attention that that amended map that I
submitted, that I prepared, also deletes a
retaining wall that we had originally proposed
that was removed from the scope of the work as
one of the mitigating factors for the Trustees
to consider our application and ultimately
grant a permit.
Just quickly going back to where we
started last month or two months ago, whatever
it was, you know, we're proposing to replace
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an existing 1-1/2 story garage that's
nonconforming use since it's an accessory
structure on a single and separate lot with a
single-family dwelling with the garage as a
setback presently at 13 feet. We're asking
for at the closest point a setback of 14 feet,
which increases to 20 feet at the other corner
of the building. Crabber's Road is unopened,
unimproved. It's basically a paper road on a
subdivision (inaudible). (Inaudible) the
definition of Crabber's Road it would be
considered a side yard and apply a side yard
it would be only 15 feet.
I believe, myself included have been
before this Board seeking relief in similar
situations especially on Nassau Point wherein
the Board did grant relief for yard setbacks
on unopened, undeveloped roads. Once again,
just to reiterate, the design we're presenting
is one that I believe is aesthetically more
pleasing than we would be able to put together
with strict application of the Code because
the house would have to be so narrow it would
then appear quite tall and boxy, given the
fact that I believe it would be reduced to
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like 30-some odd feet in width. In that case
you'd have to run that gable the other way.
You'd have the gable end wall facing the road,
you'd have the gable end running parallel to
the road, which tends to reduce the mass of
the building to make it more attractive. Very
similar design, very similar to many other
homes on Nassau Point.
In my opinion it's the best design,
albeit we can't meet that front yard setback
on the paper road. I don't really have much
more to add, I don't think, at this point. My
client is with me today so if the Board has
any questions of myself or he, either one of
us would be happy to answer them.
MEMBER OLIVA: But you will have to clear
cut the lot in order to build the home?
MR. STRANG: Well not totally clear cut.
We want to save as many trees as we possibly
can. We need to clear cut the building
envelope, obviously. We need to clear an area
where the sanitary system is going to go --
MEMBER OLIVA: That I know, yeah.
MR. STRANG: We're going to try and work
around the trees, the actual trees having the
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benefit of the landscape plan and we do intend
to replant -- my client doesn't want to clear
cut and just open the property up. Yeah, he
wants his privacy from Broadwaters as well.
Even to the point we discussed possibly
reconfiguring the driveway making it a little
narrow as it approaches the street. We
discussed the possibility of pruning the lower
sections of the trees as you enter the
driveway so you can basically drive through
them and not take them down.
MEMBER OLIVA: Um-hmm.
MR. STRANG: So we had several different
ideas in which to try and maintain as much of
the privacy and the natural buffer, if you
will, there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's no way I
can convince you to put this garage underneath
this house?
MR. STRANG: The challenge with the
garage going under the house is the basic lay
of the land. The -- given the fact that we
are accessing the property from Broadwaters,
we would have to do a tremendous amount of
excavation and do a sloping down driveway to
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get the garage under the house because the
lowest level of the property is on the creek
side of the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, I was thinking
from Crabber's Road.
MR. STRANG: We don't know if we can
legally use Crabber's Road.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think you can.
MR. STRANG: I mean you have the same
documentation that I have. I don't know if
any of that documentation granted my client
the right to use Crabber's Road. He would
have to then develop it, which it isn't
developed presently, which it would lead to
other, in my opinion anyway, lead to other
environmental issues because now you've got a
road that doesn't exist being developed as a
driveway, albeit be a driveway not a road, but
it's more developed.
MEMBER SIMON: Can you do some research
on that about what is possible and what isn't
possible on Crabber's Road?
MR. STRANG: I've done that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: He's done that already.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do they know what
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it is?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, he did it.
MR. STRANG: The best I can do
deed and the title search.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Which reveals
nobody owns it, apparently.
it?
is the
map,
that
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but whose land is
MEMBER OLIVA: Don't know.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Don't know.
It's on the
MR. STRANG: It's part of a described
it's a paper road on a described map.
It's titled
MEMBER SIMON:
that's the point.
MR. STRANG:
MEMBER SIMON:
is (inaudible).
So somebody must and
Possibly not.
If you wanted to build a
house on it you'd soon find out.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, sure.
MR. STRANG: It's -- if I were to go to
the Building Department and say I want to
build a house on this lot they'd say, well,
it's not a lot, it's a paper road and you have
no right to do that.
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MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I guess the question
is what is the legal status of a paper road?
BOARD ASST.: It's on the map forever
until it's abandoned.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, until it's legally
abandoned or removed you have to -- someone
has to take action to have that legally
removed from the filed map.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Legally.
BOARD ASST.: That's right.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words, if you
were to park your motorcycle on it somebody
would have to challenge you.
MR. STRANG: That's correct~ Well, I
guess that's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And you don't even know
who.
MR. STRANG: And what right they may have
to challenge it.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right, right.
MR. STRANG: It's kind of an unusual
situation, but there's many of them like that
on Nassau Point. This is not unique to this
parcel. It's on many undeveloped, unopened
road.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: Garrett, you know, we're
-- what we have before us now is a proposed
replanting and cutting of trees. We have this
building diagram and we have a site plan. We
have a quite large house being proposed with a
10-foot side yard setback. There's an
adjacent neighbor who has a quite small house,
okay, and now there's going to be a very tall,
large house that's 58 foot wide as proposed.
MR. STRANG: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Normally the Board, when
looking at such a significant project, would
have a set of (inaudible) drawings. The
building diagram volumetic kind of semi-
section, I guess, is mostly showing potential
floor plans and stuff like that. It doesn't,
you know, it's very difficult -- is this at
grade,
grade,
den't
of designing a house when you don't
the setbacks are geing to be --
HR. STRANG: Exactly.
SO
is this just below grade, what's above
and though I realize that you certainly
want to go through the expense and time
know what
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but how would you--
since we don't have that effort put in yet,
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I actually have almost more concern for the
neighbor who is close to that property at
least through a tiny little garage, that
setback to me, that side yard has greater
impact than the one on Crabber's. You know,
that right-of-way. Will you be open to
discussing or proposing an increase in that
10-foot side yard by not necessarily a greater
side -- you know, a greater -- lesser setback
from the right-of-way, but by reducing the
length house. It doesn't have to turn into a
long skinny thing, it has to be somewhat
smaller. Since you haven't really invested in
doing all of those plans, it's not an
unreasonable thing to say we could grant
alternative relief in terms of side setbacks
and then you can proceed to design within
those setbacks.
MR. STRANG: Well, this is -- I mean
obviously the whole idea here was to come
before this Board, find out what our
limitations would be and then be able to
design a home accordingly.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so --
MR. STRANG: So even though we do have a
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concept here which is what we would like and
again this was the concept so that it could be
conveyed to the Board and we could get the
Board's opinion on it. I would just like to
say for the record, also along these lines,
that we did at the Board's request try to
address the concern of the neighbor
immediately next door by planting screening
plantings along that side of the house. I'd
also like to make two other points with
respect to that. We have, based on the design
of the house being a cape-style house, we've
tried to keep the massing of the house as iow
profile as possible albeit the property does
fall away on the waterside, but we're still at
a mean height of I believe 25 or 28 feet. I'd
have to get the statutes out which you just
made reference to. We're allowed to go
another 10 feet higher.
MEMBER WEISMAN: 37 to the ridge as
proposed and 30 to the mean height.
MR. STRANG: 30 is the highest so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mean height, 37 to the
ridge.
MR. STRANG: 37 to the ridge, but the
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mean height is what the zoning is for. So we
haven't blown it up to the maximum, which we
certainly don't want to, and again we do have
the property to work with. Presently, the
owner of the property next door, yes, does
have a small house. That's the home they
bought. That's not to say that at some point
in time they would not expand that house and
make it as tall if not taller than what we're
proposing or they could sell the property and
the new owner could do the same thing.
So we're kind of predicating a decision,
I think, on our property based on the
neighbor's house, which is not necessarily
going to stay that way forever. I just put
that out for your consideration.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: I just -- is what is --
for those of us who, unlike architects, have a
very hard to visualizing what something is
going to like even with detailed plans and
especially with regard to these sort of
sketches, it certainly would be easier for us
to have some idea of what kind of constraints
we'd be happy to (inaudible) within if we knew
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what it was you were going to be doing and we
don't really have a picture. I don't have any
sense -- I don't have any sense that the
neighbor has who is describing something that
to him sounded horrible and he may very well
be dead wrong as you suggest, but we don't
even have enough to know that on the basis,
cause I don't, on the basis of what's there.
I don't know whether it's going to be massive
and ridiculously out of place or whether it's
going to be just perfect.
MR. STRANG: Well --
MEMBER SIMON:
look at.
MR. STRANG:
given you what we
representation of
I don't have anything to
Well, I understand. We've
feel is an accurate
the massing of the house
either dramatically or as it is, you know, it
is, I think, an unreasonable request to have
an individual incur the expense of having a
home designed knowing full well that it may
not be able to be built.
MEMBER SIMON:
case?
MR. STRANG:
Isn't that always the
No, it's not.
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MEMBER SIMON: Isn't it always the case
when somebody is putting up a new home --
proposing a home on a vacant lot or what would
be a vacant lot? We're used to seeing
projected homes on lots which are currently
unoccupied and we usually get plans so we know
what the house is going to look like and we
can, you know, measure the impact on a scale
and see how wide the lot is, how wide the
house is going to be and the whole range of
things so we can get something of an idea.
It's not unusual for people to have plans to
look at when there's a -- for our Board to
have plans to look at before
single spadeful of soil.
MR. STRANG: Well, that,
be the case in some instances,
find that to be unreasonable.
what my parameters are before
my client's money. Typically,
anybody spades a
I mean, that may
you know, I
I like to know
I start spending
I was of the
impression and I may be mistaken about this,
that we're talking about an area variance here
and not necessarily a building mass variance
or a building height variance. We're looking
at an area variance and, based on the
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information that I've provided to this Board,
I believe it should be adequate for this Board
to make an area variance judgment not
necessarily judge on how pretty the house is,
how massive the house is, how -- you know,
it's -- we're here for side yard setback.
MEMBER SIMON: I understand.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The only problem with
that is, you know, I tend to be sympathetic.
The problem with that is, as you well know,
one of our criteria on our balancing test is
character of the neighborhood and it's very
difficult to determine when you don't really
know what something's going to look like what
impact it will have on the character of the
neighborhood. I mean I've heard your
testimony and I've seen your work and I trust
that it'll be a Cape Cod style or whatever,
but you know, that may change as you design.
I don't -- we don't have a final this way. I
guess what Mike is trying to say is it's just
hard to make a judgment about character of the
neighborhood when what you have is really a
two-diagramatic of -- that piece of drawings
before you, you know, one volumetric and the
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other site. So I do sympathize with that
because primarily, as you know, the Board does
usually have that information on an unimproved
property and, you know, then we just have more
information to work from in making a
determination.
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I discussed with
you Garrett at the last meeting the sanitary
system has to go where it has to go. It has
to go in the front of the house, but the house
could be flipped. The garage could go on the
opposite side, could it not? The sanitary
system on the southeast side?
MR. STRANG: This is a -- the reason
behind not doing that, initially at this point
anyway, conceptually I'll say, is once again
the lay of the land. If you follow topography
of the land, the garage is at a point where
it's at the highest -- one of the highest
points on the ground so that as the water
naturally follows its course and percolates
into the ground, it's not running into the
garage. If we move it to the north side of
the property, as you suggest, the natural
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grade at that point is in the corner is
between 11 and 12 feet where the garage would
be placed, whereas on the opposite side of the
property we're looking at 17 feet on the
roadside corner. So there's be an approximate
differential there running down driving the
water directly into the garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. I
was only {inaudible) from the (inaudible)
foliage natural plantings that are there now
from the two times that I visited the property
and the possibility of moving the house four
feet away from that property line. It would
put some of the living area on the opposite
side of the house, on the Crabber's Road side,
which would greatly not impact the neighbors
and I'm just looking at it from that concern.
MR. STRANG: Well, actually all we're
really talking about doing is sliding the
garage along the front of the house from the
southeast corner to the northeast corner, if I
understand correctly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
MR. STRANG: The living part of the house
essentially remains the same.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that, but the
door with the
Road puts the
and egress in
Well, I understand
indoor/outdoor use of the front
lack of the use of Crabber's
living entrance or the ingress
that other location.
MR. STRANG: Yeah, I can appreciate the
front entry would then be buffered somewhat by
the garage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you wouldn't
have to take that natural foliage out. I
realize it's a higher area over there, at the
same token you can slide the house over the 10
feet from Crabber's Road at its closest point,
you know, it's a 14 foot setback, therefore,
more buffering or at least allowing it to grow
more extensively and not more in reference to
your immediate plan. I think that would be a
better use of the property mainly because if
you decide to -- intend to use Crabber's Road,
there's a possibility that more activity could
be dealt with over there and less that would
stop you, but it would certainly keep the area
clear so to speak.
MR. STRANG: See, in relating to what
you're suggesting, I think maybe a compromise
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solution could be the possibility as you're
saying just shift the whole house four feet
off the property line and leave the garage
where it is, so it would come closer to the
Crabber Road side. The -- cause we're only
going to -- if we move the garage, the corner
of the house -- if we shift it down, yeah, we
could do that, but the -- philosophically, the
challenge that I see I'm just saying this from
my own perception. The activity in and out of
a garage with vehicles and doors slan~ming,
garage doors opening and closing, people
conversing as they're getting out of the car,
the further away from the developed parcel or
on the Crabber's Road side I felt was a better
design concept than putting it up on the
neighbor's property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well there's two ways to
think about it, I mean I appreciate that, but
you could -- following up on your discussion -
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- cause now we're
designing in theory, right? Okay, so be it.
Suppose you flip the garage as Gerry's
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suggesting, the alternative is two-fold. One
wider having straight running off of the
street or you'd bring the driveway over toward
the front door so that you swing in and you
enter the garage, you know, from like a
courtyard thing rather than right off the
road, which would allow more vegetation to
remain, which would also allow more of a solid
wall against the neighbor's property, you
know, instead of a driveway straight in.
MR. STRANG: That was actually my next
thought there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because then you really
do at least have a much more significant
buffer both from the activity of going in and
out, the driveway's further away, the driveway
is more toward the middle of the lot. Again,
this is what happens when we start tinkering
with design.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not design,
it's the point of your preservation of leaving
more foliage on the road, which is existing
and there's some really nice stuff there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm trying to
think of those impacts, too, which is why you
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know one could swing in this way instead of go
straight that way.
I mean it's not designed, so, you know,
this is not a problem with roof pitches or
anything like that or you're still going to
have that bulk on the roadside whether it's on
that side or that side. I guess when you're
thinking out loud to try and eliminate as many
potential large scale impacts on neighboring
properties.
MR. STRANG: I can appreciate that. I
mean we're trying to make a presentation here
that can work for us and not be detrimental to
the neighbors, either, but the concern that
keeps coming up, if I'm understanding it
correctly, is the disturbance of the natural
vegetation buffer along Broadwaters Road,
okay, and if the driveway -- if the garage
were to stay as presented on this drawing, but
we were to take and change its configuration
and narrow it down so it was only 12 feet wide
or 11 feet wide where it enters the road, it
would maintain as much of that vegetation
where it's possible. So only take out 10 foot
or 12 foot swath and then widen it up as you
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get closer to the garage, with enough room to
navigate the car into the garage bay, I mean
that's a compromise the Board would consider -
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As long as that was
brought over as far south as possible, closer
to Crabber's Road.
MR. STRANG: Yeah. Let's say we held the
Crabber's Road or even angled it off a little
bit further to the south and narrowed it down
and again as was suggested that my client's
suggestion was among and through the trees
there and trim them up. Take the foliage off
the bottom eight feet of them, leave the rest
of the canopy as is
to at least drive a
MEMBER WEISMAN:
so that you have the room
vehicle through.
You know, these are very
creative and interesting discussions. The
problem is we have to stamp a drawing, as you
know. To grant a variance we have to say this
is what we're granting. We can just give, you
know, we can just say these are the side yard
setbacks, which is what you want us to do, but
if you're talking about changing the driveway,
if you're talking about changing where the
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garage goes, we need to see it on paper.
MR. STRANG: Oh sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: At the very least
because we only have a site plan. That's all
we've got before us, really.
MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So, you know, I'd like
to at least stamp a site plan that reflects
the least impacts possible and, you know,
right on the plan itself show what vegetation
is going to stay where. Right now we have a
list. We do have, you know, it's somewhat
related to a plan, but you know it's sort of
this tree that tree and it shows it, but it
would be a lot easier to show that these are
remaining on the site plan or they're being
moved or whatever. What we're trying to do is
visualize as much as possible how the site
would be altered and how it would affect the
neighboring property in terms of privacy,
terms of impacts
little to go on.
MR. STRANG:
on the road and we have
So --
I understand that and I
would certainly not expect you to carte
blanche a site plan that wasn't a true
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representation what we were proposing, so
obviously I'd be amending the plan and
submitting it for final approval based on the
discussion. So --
MEMBER WEISMAN: If you can produce
another site plan that shows maybe 14 to 15
foot -- I would say 15 foot side yard setbacks
instead of 10 and 13 to 19 on, you know, well
it would be less on Crabber's then. What it
would be on Crabber's, where the vegetation is
going to be, how that -- you know, where the
garage is going to be and how the driveway is
going to work at least we would have something
that would be more reflective of something we
could grant as applied for rather than
alternative. You know, I'd rather grant
something as applied for rather than provide
alternative relief, but we can do that. It's
really up to you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think that's a
better idea.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd rather -- we've had
a number of discussions, mutual discussions
and I'd like to see at least a drawing that
reflects the consensus of those discussions.
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MR. STRANG: Fine. I have no challenge
with amending the plan to reflect that, but as
long as I -- I want to make sure I do
understand we're talking at this point the
Board would prefer to
yard instead of 10 --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
how others feel, but --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
okay.
side
see 15-foot north side
I would,
I don't know
I -- 14 or 15,
MR. STRANG: And can we reduce then the
yard, well, the secondary paper road
front yard, if you will, on Crabber's to less
than the 14-foot, by an appropriate -- the
same amount that we're giving to the north
side?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why 14
works, because then you're not --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you know that's
one way to think about it, frankly, my
preference would be that you reduce the width
of the house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean I don't, you
know, Crabber's setback is not, because it
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really an undescribed, untitled, you know,
unimproved, I'd like to think of it more as a
side yard than a front yard. Okay, even
though legally it's a front yard.
MR. STRANG: I would like to.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And it would have less
impact. It's going to have less impact on
that side than the other side whatever way we
want to talk about it. I think that the house
is very large and, you know, it's -- what is
it 58 feet?
MR. STRANG: 58 feet in width.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So would it be so
substantive to make it a 50 foot wide house?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean then you have a
little bit more -- a little less lot coverage,
a little bit more, you know, it's not that
big. It's big when you look at it this way
and that way, it isn't so big this way. So
again, this is a decision you and your client
have to make, but if you so decide to, you
know, simply make it a little bit narrower
again it's a less impact. We're trying to
work with what isn't before us, really, we
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don't have those drawings.
BOARD ASST.: Could we have your name,
please, for the record?
MR. GEROULANOS: My name
Geroulanos.
BOARD ASST.:
name, please?
is Spiro
Would you spell your last
MR. GEROULANOS: Spiro, S-P-I-R-O,
Geroulanos, G-E-R-O-U-L-A-N-O-S.
BAORD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. GEROULANOS: I think we could make it
a little narrower. I like the idea of
creating a larger buffer on the neighbor's
side. I think it'll help me plant some better
trees there, give it a little more width for
plantings. I don't want to reduce the width
of the house too much because although it may
be very wide you may look at it as being very
wide, it's not very deep. So I mean if you
look at the overall side of the house, whether
you look at it this way or that way, it's
really not a very bulky house and as Garrett
was saying earlier if we turn it the other
way, and we're compliant in doing that, I
think then what happens is it becomes tall and
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bulky and I think it's going to be this large
structure overshadowing the neighbor's
property and worse for the neighbors.
You know, whenever you're on waterfront,
you're trying to maximize your view. So my
advantage in having a wider home is having as
much of this attractive view of the water as
possible. So there's many reasons why I'd
rather make it wide and not as deep than make
it deep and not as wide. So I'm 100 percent
for shrinking from 10 foot to 14 foot, but I'd
like for that to be it, if that's okay, and
not shrink it down to the other side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're saying you want
to keep it 58 feet wide, the house?
MR. GEROULANOS: No, no. Not 58 feet
wide. Keep the side yard setbacks off
Crabber's Road as proposed, but reduce the
frontage of the house from 58 or reducing it
by an additional 4 feet. So 54, that's what
I'm saying. I'd like not to reduce it anymore
than that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. GEROULANOS:
Okay.
Because then I'm going
to find myself in a position where I'm going
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
to have to kind of make up square footage and
it's going to be either taller or deeper and I
don't want to do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, certainly you
can, sir, there's no question of that. That's
a good (inaudible) so far.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, let's see if
there's any further testimony and then we can
close the hearing subject to receipt of a
revised or amended site plan.
MEMBER OLIVA:
of a plan for this.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'd like to see some sort
You're going to put the
landscaping, what's remaining, what's
buffered, you know, more or less on that site
plan along with where the septic is going.
You've got that on there already.
MR. STRANG: (Inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, we do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You could probably just
(inaudible) the drawing by hand, you know,
kind of a cluster of what's more or less
remaining or revegetated and what is coming
out. Yeah, just transpose it onto one
(inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, would you say
your name again for the record?
MR. MIKULAS: Richard Mikulas.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you?
MR. MIKULAS: I have some exhibits to
show.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. MIKULAS: I'd just like to read this
into the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. MIKULAS: We are presenting this
document, myself and my wife, Robyn Mikulas,
as concerned neighbors and objectants to the
application for permission to construct a new
dwelling. We are owners of the property
located at 1900 Broadwaters, which is adjacent
to the property in which the variance has been
requested. We previously voiced objections to
this proposal at the August 21st meeting and
previous meetings with the Southold Trustees
on this issue and we wish to incorporate our
concerns and objections raised in those
meetings at this time.
Since the last meeting, the last Zoning
Board meeting I conducted a title search
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
regarding the property in question. We
contest the zoning application in its entirety
in that there is no request for subdivision of
lots 13 and 12 as required by the Southold
Town Code. It's our position that these lots
are merged by operation of law and now may not
be subdivided without proper application
and/or notices required.
By deed recorded October 29, 1934 lot 13
was purchased by Harold Maki and Martha Maki
at the time of this purchase there was an
easement granted over a strip of land
extending 15-feet in width to form a common
roadway for the benefit of all persons owning
land on Nassau Point. This easement, which is
filed on record, indicated owners of lot 13
were also the owners of the parcel, which is
known as Crabber's Road subject of this
easement. So the chain of title is Exhibit A.
Then by a deed recorded May 24, 1946 the
Maki's also purchased lot 12, which is the
subject of this application. Therefore, at
the time that this purchase was made the
zoning laws were changed in the Town of
Southold and these two nonconforming lots
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merged since they were held in common
ownership after July 1, 1983 in accordance
with Section 280-(inaudible) of the Town Code.
Since Crabber's Road appears not to be a road
but an easement owned by the Maki's, at this
time, there's no question that these lands
adjoined each other for common course of no
less than 50 feet that's set forth in the Code
and this common ownership after 1983 merged
these two nonconforming lots into one. The
application to build on lot 12 cannot be
granted without concurrent request and due
notification for the subdivision of these two
parcels.
By a deed recorded in February 5, 2007,
Howard Maki as the sole bearer of deeded lot
13 to Spiro Geroulanos and deeded lot 12 to
2000 Broadwaters, LLC, which upon the
information and belief is the limited
liability company in which Mr. Geroulanos is
the managing member. These separate deeds
have no consequence to the fact that these
properties were merged in 1983 and may now not
be subdivided under this Zoning Board
application.
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In furtherance of the Maki's intent to
merge these lots even notwithstanding the Town
Code is the fact that the Maki's built a house
on lot 13 while
on lot 12, it's
understood that
constructing accessory garage
clear that the Makis
these lots had merged and Mr.
Geroulanos and the LLC in attempt to avoid the
consequence of merger should not be
(inaudible) Board application granted.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We will submit this
to counsel and counsel and/or the Building
Department will make a decision, hopefully.
There is no application before the Building
Department at this time, so depending upon
what counsel says -- in light of this
situation I think we probably should leave the
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we have to leave
it open.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just ask a
question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRiNGER: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I wasn't here at the
first meeting. I just wondered what's in our
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records? I mean is there a title search on
this property and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim, we don't know
exactly what the Building Department did to
make -- to determine this application. We're
only here for this variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We don't require --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't require
that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, no. I just want
to know, that's all.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There's also a road
in between this, so I mean this is an
interesting case.
MR. STRANG: No, it's not really a road,
it's a paper road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we've gone
over this before and I'm just going to raise
this last issue on this and that is there has
been tremendous litigation, I mean
unbelievable litigation to the point where I
was locked off a property. In the inability
to go to property by the way I should say in
Nassau Point Road, okay, regarding these roads
and the use of these roads. In my particular
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opinion, I'm not an attorney, I don't purport
to be one, if that road is on a plat, okay,
meaning the Nassau Point map, so to speak, I'm
going down that 'road because I'm going down
there as a legal authority of this Town to
inspect a piece of property if the road is
open. Okay? So therefore under the
definition regardless if it's dirt, private,
paved, whatever the case might be, I'm going
down it. Okay, one way or another, I'll walk
it or whatever the case might have to be if
that's the only access to the property, and
therefore it's a road, it's an access. Okay,
it's an access, by that definition. So that's
the story, that's all I can tell you at this
particular point.
The Town Attorney or hopefully the
Assistant Town Attorney will make a decision
based upon your information that you've just
submitted and that's all I can really tell you
at this point. He, unfortunately, couldn't be
here today, but he wouldn't be able to make
that determination anyway without
investigating it as we see it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The reason I asked that
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question is because it seems to me like this
is divided by land that he doesn't own. I
don't know anybody could construe that to be -
MR. MIKULAS: Well, Crabber's Road is
actually an easement over lot 13.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Um-hmm.
MR. MIKULAS: So it's actually owned by
lot 13.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but it's --
MR. MIKULAS: That's what the deed says.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but that was as a
-- wasn't that as a part of the subdivision?
MR. MIKULAS: Yes, according to the deed.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, so I mean it
granted easements to all of Nassau Point.
MR. MIKULAS: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: But if it -- no an
easement means it's on the property of the
person who gave up the easement.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, okay. So --
MEMBER SIMON: You would give somebody an
easement to walk across your lawn.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: You could give it to the
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whole Village of Greenport,
do that. It'd still be your property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So before when the
owned
if you wanted to
question was asked, we don't know who
it
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- we may know now.
MEMBER SIMON: Now apparently we know
more than we did.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that just -- like
I said, it's not clear to me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
MR. GEROULANOS: May I respond?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. GEROULANOS: Spiro Geroulanos, again.
When I purchased the property we did a single
and separate title search and we have the
records of that to show that they're actually
two separate lots. So if you guys want I can
get a copy of that and give it to you.
That would be great.
Yeah, that would be
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
good.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the Town Attorney to
We can submit that to
say listen give us a
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legal opinion, we're not qualified to make
that.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That doesn't always --
even then it doesn't always by the definition
of a merged lot, the Town doesn't always say
that --
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. GEROULANOS:
It would certainly help.
That would be my main
concern in purchasing the properties.
MEMBER SIMON: You have papers which we'd
be interested in.
BOARD ASST.: It says it's a search, but
(inaudible).
MR. GEROULANOS: If you could somehow
give me that road I'd be -- I don't believe
that it's mine. I mean, the attorney, Abigail
Wickham, who I think everybody knows did a
single and separate title search to confirm
that and I have that and I can give it to
Garrett to present to you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That would be good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, ma'am. Please
state your name for the record.
MRS. MIKULAS: Robyn Mikulas.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you?
MRS. MIKULAS: Fine. I'm an owner of
1900. I think what my husband was saying is,
yes, they are two separate pieces of property.
Nobody is denying that, but the question at
hand was (inaudible) that road from our
understanding from the attorneys that we have
dealt with is not a road, it is a right-of-way
easement. So you do have two pieces of
property, but by law it is merger and where
there's merger you're not supposed to allow
another set of -- the (inaudible) I'm saying
it has to be looked into. Unfortunately, you
know, this is what we had to do. So I don't
think the two should be confused as far as
whether it's a road or what exactly it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We understand that,
that's the reason we're going to rely on the
Town Attorney to make that determination.
MRS. MIKULAS: Thank you.
MEMBER SIMON: That helps.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Alrighty, we unfortunately got an
application --
MEMBER SIMON: Wait, wait.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. ROPER: I'll be brief. Wendy Roper,
1800 Broadwater Cove. I'm two houses to the
east of the property in question and wrote the
letter that Mr. Strang made some testimony
about so I just want to clear up some of the
points where my calculation was that this was
going to be a 5,000 square foot house.
The fact that there is a full walkout
basement I have never been and we looked for
years for homes, I have never been in a
walkout basement that was not at some point in
time finished. It's -- whether he says he
plans to do it or not, he's got a lot of
ideas, but as you said there's no plan. So he
can say I don't think I'm going to finish it,
as soon as he gets a C of O finish the
basement. That now becomes square footage.
He has a full first floor as well as a second
floor which they're calling a half-story;
however, it's going to have bedrooms and
bathrooms. To me, that's calculated in square
footage. When you go to sell the house
they're not going to sell it as half-story,
they're going to sell it as livable square
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footage, which is what it is. I think the
point that the Mikulas' and myself are trying
to make and the point that was made by Leslie
it's the point that she made, it is a large
very wide house and I don't think -- I mean
the point that he made now about the deed and
it may not be able to build my points may be
completely moot because he may not be able to
build a home on it at all, which is something
you're going to have to address, but I think
the thing that is disturbing to us as
neighbors is the size of the home from
property line to property line and there's no
other house on Broadwater Cove, I'm not
talking about Nassau Point Road there's a lot
of huge homes that go, you know, we're not on
Nassau Point Road, we're on Broadwater Cove
and traditionally the homes have been smaller
cape styles, but there are buffers.
Nassau Point is a beautiful wooded piece
of property and my concern with this
particular piece of property is it sits at a
iow point at the cove and you're covering it
with a tremendous amount of non absorbable
materials. The water has to go somewhere and
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it's going to go somewhere and the low point
in this case is right on the property line of
the Mikulas' and the Garoulanos' house and
into the cove. It's (inaudible) most of my
point and intention was to this is entire
environmental concern. I really -- there's a
pending permit with the DEC for the property
next door for a pool. So we're looking at a
pool. We're looking at a huge house and we're
looking at a dock. Ail three of those things
in conjunction have a huge environmental
impact. So I know you're only looking at the
one thing, but I think you have to look at the
bigger picture and see what those two
properties in conjunction are looking to do
and what type of impact it's going to have on
the cove.
Broadwaters Cove is one of the last open
creeks in Cutchogue and I believe probably
Southold and it's clean because the water
moves, but the more people do things to
disturb that the chance is, like the cove, the
creek at one point might be closed. Every
time you do it for one house, it sets
precedent to do it for another and it just
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feeds on itself and our point is that we're
trying to get this down to a reasonable size
and I think that's all that anyone is asking
for, if they, in fact, have a chance to build
on it we're just asking for some sense of
reasonableness with the area and given the
sensitivity of the property itself. It's
landscaping and everything else. I think it's
important to consider how much of it is
allowed to be dug up and poured with nonporous
materials because the water has got to -- the
water and the runoff have to go somewhere and
it's going to be into our creek.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. ROPER: That's my only point I have
to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good. Thank
you very much.
MR. STRANG: May I?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MR. GEROULANOS: I just want to clear up
one thing that the size of the home again is
much smaller than 5,000 square feet that Wendy
keeps mentioning. The only two homes that are
small in this vicinity are their two homes,
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their two undeveloped homes. The home
directly next to 2000 Broadwaters which is the
other lot is about a 5,000 square foot home.
The house across the street from our property,
maybe three homes are also very large homes,
probably larger than what we're proposing to
do.
One day somebody will build on their
lots, whether it's them or somebody who buys
the property and within their rights they will
be able to build a house much larger than what
we're proposing to build. So I wanted to set
the record straight on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we -- do you
want to say something, ma'am?
MRS. MIKULAS: Yes. I believe that there
probably are larger homes, but they're also on
much larger pieces of land and that's sort of
what's concerning me as a homeowner in the
area, not necessarily as the next door
neighbor, that you're talking about less than
an acre and a fairly large home. We own less
than -- a bigger piece --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to address
the Board.
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MRS. MIKULAS: The piece that we're on is
a bigger piece and I think the other pieces
are much bigger than that one piece of land.
So I don't understand the scaling. You're
talking about the scaling of the size of this
home on a certain size piece of property.
Across the street, we know some of the
neighbors they're on two acres, acre, you
know, 2-1/2 acres or more. They could build
whatever they want, it's proportional to their
land and I think that's really the big issue,
besides this other stuff that has come up in
the process of all this, is that we're not
talking about proportion. There's no
proportion here. We're talking about maybe
giving him a little bit more room on that one
side, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter.
The size of the house for the size of the
land.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are aware that
we do not have a pyramid law in this town. We
don't have something that requires you to go
up like this. That is a law that they have on
the south shore that designs the house to the
type of property that you have. That is
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something that we have been working on for a
long time and we understand exactly where
you're coming from. This is the first time in
two hearings that we have gotten them to try
and move a little bit on this house. Okay,
we're still working on that, so it's a
process.
MRS. MIKULAS: No, I understand that, but
we're here, initially I believe, because
they're asking for a variance and right now
the way --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: From Crabber's
Road.
MRS. MIKULAS: -- that it stands right
now is that the law says that they should not
be given -- make the house as big as they're
saying. The law is restricting it -- or it
has to be made differently on that property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it could be
built as what we refer to as a railroad
parcel.
MRS. MIKULAS: Right, but it does have to
be changed. That house can't go in and then
there's other restrictions because there's
other restrictions that they need from the
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water. So all the restrictions
make that house smaller is what
MEMBER SIMON: Would
MRS. MIKULAS: -- if
together.
MEMBER SIMON:
are going to
I'm saying --
it -- would --
you put them all
-- it be fair to say that
what you're suggesting is in considering a
variance for a setback what they're asking for
is we could take into account other factors,
affect on the neighborhood, by how much it
dominates the lot it's on, how big it is?
MRS. MIKULAS: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: In other words the second
factor about the size of the lot do come into
bear when we're considering the consequences
of the variance as on the property roadside.
Is that what you're saying in effect?
MRS. MIKULAS: Right and all the other,
you know, yeah. It affects the size of the
house because there's other restrictions, you
know, from how far it has to be back from the
water, and how far -- you know, all those
things put together make the house smaller and
smaller, but that's the piece of land that
it's on. Well, that they want to put it on.
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MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
move this
ability.
MRS.
thing around to
MIKULAS:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
We're trying to
the best of our
Okay.
They're really
constrained by lot coverage, you know --
MRS. MIKULAS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- 20 percent lot
coverage and they have a 17,279 square foot
nonconforming lot. We do not have before us a
Notice of Disapproval based upon exceeding the
Code lot coverage. It was calculated by the
Building Inspector and the only variance
that's before us, at this point, is the
setback from Crabber's since it's considered a
front yard. So I can only conclude that
although it seems very logical the law that we
have to work with is not really scale, the law
we have to work with is footprint. You know,
so it's just a response. I mean I'm -- as you
can tell, I'm quite sympathetic to impact on
the side yard and, frankly, I'm not sure how
you can determine what square footage is going
to be proposed; how anybody can determine, the
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architect himself isn't sure because the plans
aren't developed yet. Frankly, it could be
bigger, not necessarily with the setback, but
you know, he doesn't need a setback for every
single thing, just one at the moment.
So it's possible that -- so this is what
frustrates me because we don't really have
before us a complete proposal so we could
really, you know, we're trying to work with --
without overburdening the owner/applicant,
being sensitive to the neighborhood and the
neighbor, being very aware of environmental
impact by wanting to look at -- there's a
drainage plan before us now. He will not --
they will not be allowed to build something
that will drain into the creek, they will have
to have drywells, gutters and leaders and so
on; however, just plain runoff when you have
less roof structure, when you have less, you
know, permeable, of course, there'll be --
you're going to have to mitigate it by law
with a drainage thing, but you know it's all
mitigation, mitigation, mitigation.
As people build on what were never really
considered buildable lots, we see more and
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
more people building on what we always used to
call sub-prime lots and this is what's
happening throughout the whole town. The law,
however, frequently allows it. What we can do
-- we can't deny an owner what is by right
their legal ability to do, but on the other
hand we're doing our best to mitigate the
rights of the property owner with the impacts
on the neighborhood and the character of the
town. So that's how we determine what
variances are reasonable. I just want, you
know, I just want to follow up on the size
relative to the --
MRS. MIKULAS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you start,
Mr. Strang, we're going to adjourn this
hearing to January 8th at 1:15 p.m. and --
MEMBER WEISMAN: People need what they
need.
BOARD ASST.: We need to admit the
amended plan as soon as possible, you know,
eight prints, if you ~on't mind.
MR. STRANG: The question that I have a~
this point is there's a legal issue that needs
to be resolved with respect to the legality of
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the two parcels, which we are of the
understanding based on title searches the fact
that the property was marketed as two separate
and distinct parcels and sold as such with
title searches. I mean ultimately, I guess,
if it is found that the lots are, in fact,
one, Mr. Geroulanos has quite an action that
has to be pursued against the title company
that gave him clear title to two single and
separate lots.
I'm -- can we -- would we be able to have
a determination from the Town Attorney prior
to the January date because --
BOARD ASST.: We'll do the best we can.
We'll start that process next week, but the
first thing that we do {inaudible) --
MR. STRANG: The reason I ask that is to
amend a plan that may not be able to be
amended is kind of a, you know, waste of time.
So we'd be happy to submit an amended plan
once we know that the lots have been
determined to be single
a buildable lot.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. STRANG: At that
and separate and it is
Okay.
point in time, we'll
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be happy to do those changes.
I just want to for the record make a
comment with respect to the claims that we're
not properly managing this site. We worked
with the Trustees at length to make sure that
we're dealing with the potential for runoff
and anything that's being created by
impervious structures is being contained on
site with the proper drainage in properly
designed drainage structures. In addition to
that, the Trustees mandated that we have a 50-
foot non-disturbance buffer between the edge
of the wetlands landward. Their reasoning
behind that from an ecological point of view
is this is the natural place for the natural
runoff that occurs now to percolate before it
reaches the creek. So we went to great
lengths working with the Trustees and the like
to make sure that everybody was satisfied and
the Trustees concurred and -- not concurred,
but (inaudible) and conditioned the permit
that we meet those issues and we have.
Whether or not this Board grants the 14-
foot side
Crabber's,
yard or less or whatever off of
is not going to have an impact
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the size of the house and I think that's
somewhat of a misunderstanding the neighbors
have. We're allowed to build up to 20 percent
lot coverage, whether it's in the
configuration that we have or if it's crammed
off to the north side of the property and
meets all the zoning restrictions. It's just
that we don't want to do that, it's not going
to make for an aesthetic situation. They can
build, as Gerry, you mentioned, a railroad
car, that's not what we're looking to do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why we're
asking you -- that's why I'm asking you to
keep as much foliage on the road as possible
and to create as much of a buffer so that the
land -- so that the house is actually skewed
more towards Crabber's and, of course, more
towards the relatives on the opposite side of
Crabber's because conceivably both properties
can have equal privacy without impacting
neighbors and I think some of the things you
said there are good. You know, I think we're
going to be able to work this out.
MR. STRANG: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no
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further comment, I'll make a motion closing
the hearing -- excuse me, recessing the
hearing to January 8th at 1:15 p.m.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - October 30, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature
Denise Gasowski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
November 17, 2008
Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service
(631) 878-8355
303