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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
June 26, 2008
9:36 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH D. OLIVA - Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
(left 12:08 p.m. returned 1:20 p.m.)
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board asst.
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney
(9:45 3:05 p.m.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Maureen Higgins #6172 3-11
Michael and Carol Ann Sendlewski #6169 11-17
Maritime Day School #6170 28-39
Thomas and Wendy Carley #6171 39-42
Thomas and Kathleen Despagni %6174 42-49
Joseph and Cathleen Shipman #6173 49-93
Richard and Betsy Perkins #6177 93-107
Southold Prop. LLC/Principi Prop. #6150 107-155
End of the Road LLC #6013 155-167
William and Joan Turnbull #6152 167-167
Michael and Susan Jeffries #6167 167-179
Claire and Rob Riccio %6140 180-258
Joseph Zito #6175 258-265
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ZBA Town of Southold
June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
order. Motion?
BOARD MEMBER:
BOARD MEMBER:
Call meeting to
So moved.
Second.
HEARING #6172 - Maureen Higgins.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
"Request for a variance under Sections
280-122 and 280-124,
Inspector's May 12,
and ZBA Zoning Code
based on the Building
2008 Notice of Disapproval
Interpretation %5039
(Walz), concerning revocation of BP #30548-Z
and an application for a building permit to
alter the existing single-family dwelling and
to convert the carport into living space, for
the reason that the construction will
constitute an increase in the degree of front
yard setback nonconformance, at 1500 Bay Shore
Road, Greenport; CTM 53-4-32.1"
Is anybody here for the applicant?
MR. BASSOLINO:
Bassolino.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I'm the architect, Robert
Hi,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
mike?
how are you?
Could you use the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO:
lateness. I know we're
apologize for that.
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
ten minutes
I'd apologize for the
late and I
No problem.
I'm quite familiar with
this house. I've probably been inside this
house when I was a kid a hundred times as I
grew up with the people that used to live
there, so I'm very familiar with it and I
guess if you could just go over what you
Well basically there are
About two or three years
propose and --
MR. BASSOLINO:
two parts to this.
ago I filed an application to put a deck on
one side of the building. That was approved,
permit issued. They had a foundation
They never signed
ago or so, I filed
the existing
inspection, they built it.
it off. About six months
an application to enclose
carport. At that time, that was interpreted
as increasing the degree of noncompliance --
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question, I'm
sorry. I don't mean to interrupt. What do
you mean who never signed what off?
MR. BASSOLINO: The --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER OLIVA: They never got a CO.
MR. BASSOLINO: They never got the
Building Inspector to sign off the application
for the final construction.
MEMBER OLIVA: CO.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I understand that.
MR. BASSOLINO: Or the CO.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I'll wait. I'll
reserve my question for later.
MR. BASSOLINO: Okay, then when we filed
this new application the inspector reviewed it
and he also saw that the previous application
they felt was approved in error, but it was
built, never signed off. So the second part
of this equation, of course, is the enclosing
the carport and make that into a open
screened-in porch. Ail setbacks are in line
with the building. We're not increasing the
degree in terms of footage, but we are
increasing the percentage of building that's
in the front yard. They're still under 20
percent, about 18.5 percent of coverage, and
both spaces are unheated and open -- one is an
open deck.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so basically you
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
filed for a building permit. You built the
deck according to the specifications which you
filed.
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Correct.
And the only thing you
didn't do was follow up on calling the
building inspector up and saying you were done
and please come and give us the final
inspection. Is that correct?
MR. BASSOLINO: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you had, you know,
foundation inspection. You had all the stuff,
you know, framing inspection on the deck?
MR. BASSOLINO: The contractor wasn't
aware that they had to go get a final
inspection.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but I mean as far
as having all the -- in other words the
footings are there to meet Code?
MR. BASSOLINO: Oh yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and -- because the
building inspector, at some point in time, did
come and inspect that or approve that.
MR. BASSOLINO: They have a sign off on
the foundation, correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Alright, so
that's what you're looking for some kind of --
just a clearing up of a building permit that
expired.
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
really all I have.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Correct.
Okay. Alright, that's
Since there's a note
that the existing deck is in line with the
house, it is actually set back farther from
the road than the entry to the house itself,
which is a little portico.
MR. BASSOLINO: That's correct. The
entrance is about four feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right and you're going
to simply be using the volume of the existing
carport, correct?
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That's correct.
You're not going beyond
the building envelope on that side?
MR. BASSOLINO: The exact same
dimensions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. No further
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
don't think anything turns on the answers to
this question, but it's for my information.
It's for my information and understanding how
exactly you -- it's described very vaguely in
the application and because this is obviously
-- the application says there was a mistake
and mistakes in general should not be
repeated. So this is why I want to know in
this particular case there was a general
contractor? Was there a general contractor?
MR. BASSOLINO:
general contractor.
MEMBER SIMON:
Uh, I believe he was a
I'm not sure if he was a
Was the general contractor
the one who typically called for the other
inspections? (Inaudible)?
MR. BASSOLINO: Yes, certainly.
MEMBER SIMON: And for whatever reason
the general contractor would have been the one
to call for the final inspection?
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. BASSOLINO:
MEMBER SIMON:
That's correct.
And didn't do so.
Correct.
In what sense was it
mistake of the Building Department?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. BASSOLINO: I didn't say it was a
Building Department mistake. The error was
that when I filed my plan for the deck it was
approved.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah?
MR. BASSOLINO: There wasn't any
objection about increasing the degree of
noncompliance in the front yard, but when I
filed the new application it was reinspected
and they said this deck should never have been
approved because it's an encroachment in the
existing front yard, further degree of
noncompliance, even though it's in line --
MEMBER SIMON: Oh, you mean -- you mean
they should never have -- they needed a
variance and --
MR. BASSOLINO: They said that deck
should have had a variance.
MEMBER SIMON: So the mistake, if there
was a mistake, it's the Building Department's
for not giving a Notice of Disapproval --
MR. BASSOLINO: On the deck, that's
correct.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. I have
no further questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To your knowledge
did the contractor actually get, and I know
this is redundant, did he actually get
inspections from the Town or did you certify
the footings --
MR. BASSOLINO: No, no. The inspector
from the Town came out --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He did look at it.
MR. BASSOLINO: He inspected the hole
first and then he came back and saw the
footings and said okay, now you can continue
building, but the contractor was not a local
guy apparently wasn't aware that he needed
final inspection.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. I
just wanted to clear that up.
I don't have any further questions, let's
see if there's anything further on.
Is there anybody else who would like to
speak for or against this application?
Any other questions from the Board?
Seeing no
motion closing
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA:
further questions, I'll make a
the hearing, reserving decision
Second.
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6169 - Michael and
Carol Ann Sendlewski
MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance
under Section 280-122, based on the Building
Inspector's March 17, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval and ZBA Zoning Code Interpretation
%5039, for the reason that the proposed
additions and alterations will place the
existing accessory building in a side yard
with more nonconformity (instead of the code-
required rear yard). Location of the
Property: 270 Pequash Avenue, Cutchogue; CTM
102-3-5.1."
It's my understanding that this was
partially in the side yard in any case, so
this doesn't strictly describe the facts they
describe later on in the application, but in
any case it has to do with a variance for
having something at least partially in the
side yard as we'll hear probably from the
applicant's representative.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, could you
state your name for the record?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Good morning. My name
is Martin Sendlewski, Architect. I'm here
representing the applicant who is in
attendance.
BOARD ASST.: Spell that please.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Sure, it's S-E-N-D-L-E-
W-S-K-I.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you explain
the nature of this Notice of Disapproval and
how you interpret it for us?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Well, we had submitted
an application for an addition to the rear of
the existing residence.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
two structures on it.
residence and it has
The property itself has
It has the primary
an accessory garage,
repair garage. There is also an out building,
which would be a small shed on the property.
The client, my client has purchased the
property and wants to add onto the rear of the
residence for more living space. It's a
relatively small house, five member family,
and we want to add on a new kitchen on the
first floor and a bedroom above on the second
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
floor.
We submitted the application. First we
received a denial that said that we would only
create a nonconformity in the side yard.
Subsequent to that notice, I contacted the
Building Inspector and I sent a copy of the
survey, which -- a supplemental survey, which
you may have a copy of, that shows that
actually the existing repair garage is already
partially in the side yard. So, therefore, I
questioned whether we required a variance and
he said well even though it's already in the
side yard you are going to increase the amount
of the building being in the side yard. Even
though we're not touching that building, since
we're extending the back of the house further
back the side yard line which is established
at the rear of the residence the side yard
line moves back further, so more of the
existing garage structure will be in that side
yard.
The design of the addition itself, the
residence has a classic gambrel style roof and
if you look at the site plan what my client
has done when you talk about the design was as
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
opposed to adding directly out on the back of
the house. What I convinced them to do is to
move the sides of the addition in on each side
of the rear of the house, which will actually
take it further out of the view and that
allows the integrity of the gambrel design on
the side of the house to also maintain its
integrity. We would have the wall of that
gambrel end of the house extending further
back. So the integrity of the design of the
classic gambrel style of the house is
maintained. The addition is pretty much
almost not visible, I believe, from the road
because it steps in on both sides of the
residence itself.
I'd also like to just make a note that
there's a email that we just received a copy
of from the neighbor across the street who is
very happy with the improvements that my
client has made to the property and cleaned it
up. There is a misunderstanding in the email
that the shed is there -- was moved to that
location, actually our site plan shows the
shed being moved to a legal location in the
rear yard. I think what happened was the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
property was in such disrepair that when my
client cleaned it up the neighbor across the
street thought the shed was moved there not
realizing it was there all along. So that
shed as part of this application will be moved
legally into a legal location in the rear of
the property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you for that
clarification because I was confused when I
got that email and I didn't -- where I was at
the time I didn't have the plans, but it was
my understanding, as you just confirmed, is
that the shed has really nothing to do with
the variance.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That's correct.
MEMBER SIMON: So presumably the neighbor
who was unhappy with something which is a non-
issue and has expressed no unhappiness with
the primary subject of the application doesn't
seem to have a problem with this.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That's correct and, in
fact, the shed itself would have been wholly
within the side yard if we leave it where it
is now. So in essence we are taking the shed
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ZBA Town of Southold
June 26, 2008
which would also be
it is now and --
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
conforming location.
MEMBER SIMON:
in non conformance where
Yeah. Okay.
-- we're moving it to a
Alright, now it's my
understanding, I could be corrected on this,
is that probably -- materially, it probably
doesn't matter whether the -- from the point
of the Code, whether the garage was a little
bit in the side yard or not at all in the side
yard because you need a variance if you're
going to build from something that was in the
rear yard and then it goes into (inaudible).
However, this is one of a number of cases that
we get for, kind of as I understand it, this
is my own view, for technical reasons this
kind of thing turns out to be introducing a
new nonconformity if the thing were in the
back yard. So what's meant is that a
preexisting building becomes in nonconformity
because of an alteration behind the original -
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and some would argue
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
that that is really a technical distinction
without a difference. I would love for anyone
who is present and has anything to say about
that to dispute it.
disagree.
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
I don't think you would
No, actually. I had the
same question of the Building
because the first
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
Inspector
rejection letter we received
Yeah.
-- indicated that we
were creating nonconformity and then when I
pointed out to the Building Inspector we
already were in nonconformity then he said
exactly that. Well, it is a technical issue
where you're creating more of a nonconformity.
So --
MEMBER SIMON: Right, but even if it had
been entirely in the rear yard you'd still be
creating a nonconformity.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Correct, um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: Either way, it's a
question of whether this is the kind of
nonconformity which the Code is designed to
prevent. I'm not at least persuaded yet that
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
it is.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Yeah,
building the garage and the
I think if we were
house existed it
I agree with
would certainly be an issue.
that, but since the garage and the house --
MEMBER SIMON: I think this would seem to
be a material question of which was built
first.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Right. Yeah and the --
both of the structures are listed on the CO.
I don't know if they were built concurrently,
but there is a current updated CO for both of
the structures, which is redated as a new CO
(inaudible). I don't know the history of it,
but it appears that the garage may have been
built separate of the house possibly prior to
zoning and has existed for quite a long time.
It's been there, you know, I've been through
the building and based on its construction and
its age it's definitely been there almost as
long if not as long as the residence itself
prior to the Zoning Code.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, one further
question. Is it the case that that
essentially commercial garage is there legally
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
simply because it was
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
MEMBER SIMON: I
questions.
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
MEMBER OLIVA:
-- it predates the Code?
That's correct.
have no further
Thank you.
The garage is just going
to be used for the residents of the house?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Excuse me? I'm sorry.
MEMBER OLIVA: The garage it's not an
official inspection place?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Actually, the garage is
a State of New York registered repair station.
lot?
MEMBER OLIVA: It is?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: It is, yes.
It has --
MEMBER OLIVA: And it is a residential
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That's correct. It's a
preexisting nonconforming use. It always was
utilized as a repair garage as a commercial
property and the current owner purchased it
with the intent that it had that preexisting
use, which is very valuable to him and it is a
-- it does have a Certificate of Occupancy and
based on the Certificate of Occupancy my
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
client has received his relocation of his
business legally with the State of New York.
It is now a registered repair -- It was a
registered repair before, but the previous
owner wasn't as up to date with his paperwork,
but it is a legally existing shot.
MEMBER OLIVA: And he will be using that
garage?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Yes, that is correct.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, otherwise I think
he's done a lovely job. It looks very nice.
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
hear that.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
I'm sure he's happy to
I have a question.
Could I ask you a question?
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
your question about
I'm sorry.
That's okay. To clarify
nonconformity and, you
know, why a building has existed for many
years is not a preexisting nonconformance.
The application was turned down because of
Walz, which this Board made a decision many
years ago, seven years ago stating that there
is no such thing now as a preexisting
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
nonconforming setback.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not use.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Yeah, I
actually -- I
agree with the -- when it was explained to me.
I looked at it and I see the verbage and the
verbage is actually correct. It does increase
that nonconformity. So that -- when I first
heard that we had that requirement, I sort of
questioned it by saying well it's already in
the side yard, what does it matter? Is there
a dimensional requirement and then it was
explained to me the degree.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. SENDLEWSKI:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Yeah, well --
And it does make sense.
-- you won't see it in
the Code. If you read the Code you won't see
that. You have to read the interpretation,
which is, you know, hits you in the face when
you get hit with -- when you're told rather.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Sure. Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I hope that
that, for Michael, too. There is no
thing as a preexisting nonconforming
and you're increasing the degree of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
nonconformity.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Sure and I think that's
a good thing because if somebody were to come
in and plan to do something that really is
unreasonable and over done for the site, then
I think, you know, it gives this Board
judgment on things like that, but we've done a
minimal addition that just is a minimal
addition that is really just for their needs
and it's on the back of the house so we
maintain the integrity of the design of the
structure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No,
decision quite honestly.
I disagree with the
You know, you're not
speaking to the choir here. I guess I just
want to clarify that the garage has always
been used for a business.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Yes, it has.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And I recall that, I
can't recall when it was never a business.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That is correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and all you're
asking to do is continue that.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That is correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: My assumption is that
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
it'll probably be a little more busy there now
than it had been in the past few years just
simply because the man is pursuing the
business. I'm assuming that's what's going to
happen. You're going to have a few more cars
there probably and he'll hopefully get more
and be a business.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He has to use a
mike if he wants to speak.
MR. MICHAEL SENDLEWSKI: Good morning.
My name is Michael Sendlewski, I'm the
applicant.
Yes, we're going to use the garage.
Okay, I do have a full-time job with the State
of New York as a mechanic and this is going to
be a business that I've been in for the last
30 years buying and selling some cars and
fixing some cars. I'm going to be very picky
on what I do only because at that point in my
life I can afford to do that. It's not going
to be run 24/7. It's not going to be run on
the weekends. I have spoken to my neighbor to
the south who just purchased the house. We
have a clear understanding of what's going on
and I explained to all of my neighbors that if
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
there was something going on, let's say you're
having a barbecue in the backyard, just give
me a day's notice so I can rearrange my
schedule so I don't intrude upon your using
your backyard. I want nothing more than to be
a good neighbor, that's all I'm looking to do.
The reason I need my licenses are legal
reasons. To do what I want to do, I have to
have these licenses and I have to have the
insurances and you know all of that expense.
So, yes, I'm going to have to make money to
pay for that stuff and, yes, I have one that
just got out of college and two more ready to
go in so everybody knows that routine, but as
far as being a good neighbor that's all I want
to do. I want a clean up the property more.
I'm already into the property for over
$8500.00 just in dumpsters alone cleaning that
place up and I want to continue to clean the
place up and make it to where my neighbors are
happy with me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to need
to stop the hearing at this point. We have an
arraignment that sometimes occurs before the
hearing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. MICHAEL SENDLEWSKI: Not a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I'll make a
motion adjourning the hearing for
approximately twenty minutes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved. Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
MR. SENDLEWSKI: Then we'll be done with
our testimony and that is as the applicant had
stated he has a full-time job and utilizes
this garage as a repair garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: In saying that I just
want to make sure that you understand that
he's giving up any use of that CO and existing
use and repair garage as part of the
preexisting use on the property.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: I just wanted that on
the record. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just ask you
a question while you've raised that issue. Is
there any reason that any type of screening
should be placed in order for this existing
garage? I realize it's -- I mean you're
asking us to use this -- grant this variance
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
based upon the fact that it is a nonconforming
preexisting use. Okay, it is in the side
yard, however, has anybody requested anything?
Any neighbors?
MR. SENDLEWSKI: No there hasn't been a
request. As a matter of fact, all of the
neighbors have been, as per the email, been
very pleased with the improvements in the area
and I know he's going to continue to improve
the property.
MEMBER DINIZIO: May I clarify something
cause the garage and the use is not the
subject of this variance.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just the question
of you wanting to add onto the back of -- add
to the living space of your house.
MR. SENDLEWSKI: That's correct, that's
the only issue that we're here for. Correct.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
else any questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, just for the record
I simply wanted to add that the plans will
improve the property and Mr. Sendlewski's done
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
a wonderful job of cleaning up what was an
eyesore. The screening already exists
relative to the existing garage, which is a
permitted use on a canal in that property.
There is a fence, a stockade fence that I
believe is on the neighbor's property that
completely screens that garage from the side
yard of the existing dwelling. So I don't --
MEMBER SIMON: You mean to the south?
MEMBER WEISMAN: To the south and I think
there would be no impact to the neighbor to
the north in terms of the change in the
location of the greater degree of
nonconformity in the side yard with the
existing accessory buildings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody else
like to speak either for or against this
application? This is the second application
of this Zoning Board meeting, again #6169.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
HEARING %6170 - Maritime
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Request for a
Section 280-13-B{4)
Day School
Special Exception under
to establish a Nursery
School at the existing Health Club and office
building at 780 Depot Lane and Main Road,
Cutchogue; CTM 102-2-12.6. Zone District:
Residential-Office."
Is someone
application?
MR. PASCA:
here who will speak to this
Good morning.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Good morning.
I just want to see if I understand this
application correctly, which is that you're
proposing to operate for about three hours a
day a nursery school for two-, three-, and
four-year-olds.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
appearance.
MR. PASCA:
Esseks, Hefter,
Let him give his
My appearance, Anthony Pasca,
& Angel, 180 East Main Street,
Riverhead. We represent the Maritime Day
School.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PASCA: Just so you know who else
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
here, Britta Dominy, Amy Burns are the
directors of the Day School and since we're
only going to be tenants of the property the
owner of the property has some representatives
Cuddy is the attorney on behalf of
here, Mr.
the owner.
Yes, three hours a day and the tenants
set it forth in as much detail in the
application materials. Three hours a day is
really the limit under certain laws that you
can operate. So that's all they're seeking to
do, but the business may be open for staff
purposes beyond that,
there from 9 to 12.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
new construction.
but the kids will be
And you're proposing no
MR. PASCA: No new construction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Simply renovating the
interior painting and (inaudible).
MR. PASCA: It's an existing space. It's
vacant right now so we can take advantage of
that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I actually have two
questions upon doing a site inspection, which
perhaps you could address or you could ask
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
someone to come forward and address.
MR. PASCA: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The parking lot has been
substantially improved already there were some
comments from the Planning Board that I'm sure
you received a copy of.
MR. PASCA: No, actually.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We should make sure that
you have their comments. I think perhaps the
concerns that they raise about proper parking,
handicapped access, drainage have already been
addressed in what is now there.
MR. PASCA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But my question is two-
fold and it has to do with the safety of the
children who will be there. I want to commend
the applicants on the thoroughness of their
application, which certainly goes into all of
the programs and the ways in which the nursery
school will be used and so on. But I noticed
two things, one is that your proposal is to
have some staff person there at the time of
drop-off and pick-up for children because it
is a fairly active parking lot with the, you
know, people coming in and out during various
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
times of the day to use the healthcare
facility.
MR. PASCA: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Although those parking
spots are, you know, closer down the opposite
end of the site and the other safety issue has
to do with the proposed playground use in the
rear, which is technically a side yard. Well,
it's a frontage on Main Road and there is no
proposed, at least on the survey, proposed
enclosure of any
MR. PASCA:
fence.
kind.
Yes, there is going to be a
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Now, just please
address those issues that I mentioned.
MR. PASCA: Let's do the parking first.
There is a plan. This is going to be a start
up business so we want to keep a little bit of
flexibility because you never know what's
going to happen. So we don't want to come up
with some absolutely detailed plan, but there
is going to be a staff person outside. There
is probably going to be some use of cones to
try to delineate a drop-off area and make sure
that it's kept separate from the health club.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Because the drop-off and pick-up times are so
narrow, we're not going to just take over a
portion of the parking lot for several hours
and not allow anybody else to use it. So it's
going to be sort of an assisted parking
situation like that and there will be an area
set aside for drop-off and pick-up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and the rear
property?
MR. PASCA: The rear part is going to be
fenced in with a chain link fence. There's no
question that has to be done and that's been
the plan. The area on the map that we
submitted, it may end up being a little bit,
you know, adjusted, but basically that's the
area where the fence is going to go.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you have any
objection to conditioning the Special Permit
with the -- with that?
MR. PASCA: No, not at all, cause that's
the proposal. So absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PASCA: Your concern about the safety
of the kids is their concern about the safety
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
of the kids. That has got to be the number 1
concern, so there's no way they would operate
that without an enclosure for their
protection.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll reserve any other
questions for later.
BOARD ASST.: We have the letter from the
Planning Board here.
MR. PASCA: Could I have a copy?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: They talk about drainage
and parking spaces for the handicapped and for
the other two uses that remain on the property
(inaudible) concerns.
MEMBER SIMON: Just a question that the
fitness club is continuing business on the
same site?
MR. PASCA: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Are there going to be any
other businesses in that complex besides
these, are there any now?
MR. PASCA: There is no other businesses.
There's a, at the
Main Road --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes?
front of the property by the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. PASCA: -- there is a nonconforming
residence there. So there'll be in essence
three units. The residents in the front, the
nursery school in the middle and the, if you
want to call it the rear,
the rear, but that's all,
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA:
the health club in
that's the site.
I have no further
I thought you did a very
good job eliminating all the things, but
think the major concern is the safety of
kids, really.
job doing that,
good plan.
MR. PASCA: I
MEMBER OLIVA:
I
the
I think you've done a very good
otherwise it would (inaudible)
won't
Oh.
take credit for it.
MR. PASCA: It's their plan,
presenting it.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
but I'm just
Well, good presentation.
No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what
develops throughout the hearing and you may
want to say something else.
MR. PASCA: No, I don't have anything
else to add, but one of the directors would
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
just like to say a few words about -- since
this is a use application not necessarily in
exact detail, but she just wants to say a few
words.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You've explained to
them the difference between a Special
Exception and a variance?
MR. PASCA: Yes. Yes and then, of
course, if there's any other questions and the
only other thing I'd like to say is we're
trying to have this to be able to run
concurrent with the school year.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. PASCA: So if you are to issue a
decision, the more prompt it could be the
better cause there's some lag time between
completing the interior renovations and your
decision. So --
MEMBER OLIVA: And you have to go to the
Planning Board,
MR. PASCA:
to do that, no.
tOO.
It's not clear that we have
It seems that the Building
Department
MEMBER WEISMAN:
to go through --
is okay with the site plan and --
Yeah, they don't have
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR.
do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
the licenses at this time?
PASCA: They're not requiring us to
Where are we with
MR. PASCA: There's no -- the only thing
that has to be in place when they open up is
the LLC. The entity has to be in place.
There's a voluntary state licensing procedure
that can be followed, which they intend to
follow, but it's usually started up after you
open up and enter your business with the
Department of State.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible).
MR. PASCA: Yeah, so that's something
that comes a little bit down the road, but
there's not -- there's no mandatory licensing
for a three-hour program. If you exceed a
three-hour program it opens up essential
services type of license and, you know,
they're not running a daycare operation. So
it's going to be kept to the three-hour
nursery school period.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, very good.
MR. PASCA: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Hi, how do you do?
MS. DOMINY: Hi.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
name for the record, both
MS. DOMINY: My name
Just state your
of your names.
is Britta Dominy.
B-R-I-T-T-A, Dominy, D-O-M-I-N-Y, and this is
Amy Burns.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
What would you like to tell us?
MS. DOMINY: We would like to thank you
for allowing us to present our application to
the Town today. Amy and I have been working
on this project for the past year and our goal
is to open a high-quality, engaging,
interactive preschool program for (inaudible)
children of the North Fork. We strongly
believe in the need to enhance the social,
intellectual and physical experiences young
children are having in our community. We feel
it is essential to their growth and the
successful exploration of their interests.
The Maritime Day School is a
comprehensive program that will strive to
create encouraging, respectful, independent
and creative environment that will help young
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
children in our community grow and learn. Amy
and I hope we have founded an innovative and
positive aspect to the town and all its
families and young children.
The property located on Depot Lane is an
ideal location for the Maritime Day School.
We have dedicated ourselves to changing the
image of preschool education and, therefore,
we have gotten a location, we believe, that
will serve all the developmentally appropriate
needs of our students excel in meeting every
educational expectation of our parents and
enhance the options in our
just like to thank you for
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
yOU.
community. We'd
this opportunity.
No problem. Thank
Is there anybody else who would like to
be heard on this application?
Counsel, anything else?
MR. PASCA: No, just I looked over the
memo from the Planning Board and Mr. Cuddy has
been here with Mike Verity on these issues and
will continue to do so.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion to
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
close the hearing reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6171 - Thomas
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
for that?
and Wendy Carley
Is someone here
MR. BASSOLINO: My name is Robert
Bassolino, Architect, 30 (Inaudible) Drive,
Southold and 2855 214th Place, Bayside. You're
running behind so I'll be brief.
This is a one-family home and we're
intending to do -- pardon me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, we didn't read
the advertisement. I apologize.
MEMBER OLIVA:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
March 17, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning a proposed porch addition to the
existing dwelling, which will be set back less
than 40 feet from the front property line
adjacent to the street, at 350 Wampum Way,
Southold; CTM 87-2-29."
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Realizing they have two front yards.
MR. BASSOLINO: In reference to the front
yards, the Building Inspector said there are
three front yards.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, the one down in the
front, too?
MR. BASSOLINO: Well, he called it three
front yards.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
MR. BASSOLINO: One is 34 feet, one is
125 feet, and one is 34 feet.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. BASSOLINO: Total
yards and we're looking to
of noncompliance by about six and a half feet
into one of the front yards. The total
coverage is less than 8.9 percent. It's a
very large lot exceeding 22,000 square feet
and all we're asking for is a small
(inaudible) area 120 square feet porch to
protect the (inaudible) from the rain and
someplace to sit and watch the beautiful
landscapes. That's basically the (inaudible)
here.
MEMBER OLIVA:
of 190 feet of
increase the degree
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
questions because I'm familiar with that area
because I'm knew the previous owner across the
street on Wampum Road (inaudible) very
involved in (inaudible) Town Hall. It's a
beautiful spot down there and unfortunately
has three front yards. 125 square feet is
really not very much. I don't have any
further questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't have any
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Why are you before us?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, that's what I
thought.
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any
questions. I'm just curious as to why
everyone thinks that this has three front
yards if there are only two streets. I know
it goes around a corner.
MR. BASSOLINO: I
the Building Inspector,
no difference.
MEMBER SIMON:
MR. BASSOLINO:
feet, so.
MEMBER SIMON:
did discuss that with
but actually it made
Yeah, right.
One of the yards is 125
It would be as though you
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had a house in the middle of the block on a
curve, they said you had two front yards.
MR. BASSOLINO: Yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: It goes right around a
curve.
MR. BASSOLINO: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. No problem. No
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
specific questions and I thank you for your
presentation.
MR. BASSOLINO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak in favor of this
application? Would anyone like to speak
against this application?
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6174 - Thomas and
Kathleen Despagni
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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"Request for a Variance under Section
280-124, based on the Building Inspector's
April 24, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning proposed additions to the existing
single-family dwelling, which new construction
will be less than 40 feet from the front lot
line adjacent to the street, at: 805 Little
Peconic Bay Road, Cutchogue (a/k/a Lot 401
Nassau Point Club Properties Map of Section D
filed 1926); CTM 111-11-23."
Please state your name.
MR. DESPAGNI: Tom Despagni.
MRS. DESPAGNI: I'm Kate Despagni.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Welcome. As I
understand it, you want to do a small addition
to your house. You have two front yards, one
on Hay Waters and the other on Little Peconic
Bay and that addition would be 22.7 feet from
Hay Water when the Code requires 40 feet.
You're proposing a one-story small addition
for a dining room, 250 square foot, and a 15-
foot high screened gazebo at 200 square feet.
Is that correct?
MR. DESPAGNI: Well, the 200 square feet
would be an addition to squaring off the deck.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: The deck, yeah. You
have an existing deck that you're leaving.
MR. DESPAGNI: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're just going to
MR. DESPAGNI: Yes, it's just gonna be --
it's cut on an angle and it would be squared
off with the addition of the dining room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, but you are adding
a gazebo as well, right?
MR. DESPAGNI: We plan to.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. Okay, I just want
to make sure that the findings reflect
precisely what
Okay. Alright,
tell us?
it is that you want to do.
what else would you like to
MRS. DESPAGNI: Well, the 250 square feet
that's going to be the addition of a dining
room is right off the kitchen. The existing
kitchen, so there's really no other place to
put it. That's going to be a dining room and
also a small office and so it's just one-
story. It isn't really, you know, isn't
really changing that much the existing there
right now, but there is really no other place
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
to put it because the kitchen is situated
there. So we are in need of a larger dining
room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MRS. DESPAGNI: There are other homes
that we realized that we're close to the road,
but we have an aerial picture of our home and
it's one of the oldest homes on Nassau Point
it seems and the other properties on that
street on Hay Water are all, not all of them,
but many of them seem to be really close to
the road. The house right across the street
from us is even closer, I believe.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MRS. DESPAGNI:
hardship there where
Yeah, it is.
So we're kind of in a
there's really no other
place to put the dining room.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Well,
curve, too.
MR. DESPAGNI:
MRS. DESPAGNI: front
yards, too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You sure do.
I have no further questions, fine.
MEMBER SIMON: The
We're on a curve.
So we have three
It's
It's a fine house.
you're on a
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
addition looks pretty commodious and, in fact,
the question and the reason, the main reason
you're before us, as you know, has too do with
the setback on Hay Water. It's one of the
questions that we're required by law to do
(inaudible) is how substantial the variance is
and if there were any difficulty, I'm not
saying that there will be, it would be a
reduction going from a 22.7 setback, where 40
is required. What you said about the
neighboring houses is highly relevant. The
question would be if there were some concern
of the possibility of having a smaller --
having a larger setback on that road what
would that cut into? Would that cut back more
than the porch and the side deck? I'm not
saying to eliminate anything, I'm just saying
if there were to be an approval for an
alternative, is there anything you could sort
of say about the possibility. Again, we're
not proposing it at this point, but it's a
question of guidance for the Board.
Just as a matter of information we have
the power to grant as applied for, to grant as
applied for with conditions, to deny or to
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deny suggesting an alternative which involves
a variance, but maybe less of a variance. So
that's the background of my question.
So the question about if there were a
possibility of increasing that setback on the
Hay Water side, would that make any sense? I
don't have the plans right in front of me
right now, they're in here.
MRS. DESPAGNI:
MR. DESPAGNI:
addition?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
size.
MR. DESPAGNI:
MEMBER SIMON:
Increasing the setback --
Increasing the size of the
No, decreasing the
Decreasing the size.
The porch and deck side
cause that's the part that's closest from what
I understand.
MRS. DESPAGNI: Well, it would be -- the
existing kitchen, which actually was the
existing kitchen -- original kitchen, it would
really be a hardship for us. We would have to
the other
MRS.
MR. DESPAGNI: We would have to put it on
side of the house.
DESPAGNI: -- redesign the entire
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
home. So, I mean, what we're proposing is
just a small little dining room off the
kitchen instead of -- otherwise we would have
to, you know, do much more involved process,
which we're not really in a position to do.
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.
MRS. DESPAGNI: So I don't really know --
there really wasn't any other solution. You
know, we've pretty much scaled it back as much
as we could.
MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. I don't have
any further questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, I think it's a very
small addition and I agree there's no other
place you could put it.
MRS. DESPAGNI: Thank you.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree it's -- I mean,
it looks like a 10-foot addition. I mean
(inaudible) on the house. You couldn't make
it any smaller.
MRS. DESPAGNI:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
do (inaudible) picnic
further questions.
I couldn't, no.
So I don't know what you
table. I have no
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
a reasonable application.
While you're standing there we'll see if
anybody else has any questions. Anybody else
in the audience who would like to speak for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands, we'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER SIMON:
reserving decision until
Second.
{See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6173 - Joseph and
Cathleen Shipman
MEMBER SIMON:
"Request for Variances under Section 280-
13A(2-c), based on the Building Inspector's
February 26, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
concerning an application for a building
permit to construct an agricultural storage
building on an existing tree farm. The
reasons stated for disapproving the
application are: (1) the front yard setback
is less than the code-required minimum of 50
feet, and (2) the side yard setback is less
than the code-required minimum of 20 feet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Location of Property: 20685 Route 25,
Mattituck; CTM 108-3-5.5 (a/k/a Greenbriar
Acres Subdivision Lot #1 filed 10/7/1977)."
It asks for a 48-foot setback as I read
the application and the side yard setback will
be 10 feet. The property is on Route 25 at
the corner of Elijah's Lane and I would invite
the applicants to present their case.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
the record, please.
MR. SHIPMAN: Joseph and Cathleen Shipman
residing at 985 Elijah's Lane owning and
operating the Christmas Tree Farm for
approximately 18 years.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
MEMBER SIMON: The -- we have some
information from the Planning Board and others
concerning the details of your property and
this is just a comment. The 10-foot setback
is the one that is covered. The 2-foot
reduction is the one that's rather trivial,
from the main road and it is attempting,
though I understand the justification for this
partly that there are typically different
parts of the same farm so the 10 feet is in
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
front of a working farm. So it's not as
though from a neighbor.
Secondly, the Planning Board commented on
this that I guess being a Christmas Tree Farm
you have no shortage of screening. It's one
of the things you do. So it looks as though
it's -- it looks pretty good.
have any questions about that,
comments.
I don't really
just the
MR. SHIPMAN: Okay, I did bring with me -
- I brought some photos of some of the
equipment that we need to make room for in
building this building
plastic building; if I
you?
and we also have a
could give these to
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. SHIPMAN: We have a plastic building
(inaudible) pictures very clear and it'll give
us a little bit more parking for the Christmas
Tree Farm at Christmastime.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Before
sit down, we have to go through the
you
process.
Are you done,
MEMBER SIMON:
Michael?
Yes, I am.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you just explain
the circumstances about the right-of-way and
the single side yard setback of 10 feet?
MR. SHIPMAN: The right-of-way is an
existing road that was there when I purchased
the farm and I'm trying to get the building
more to one side cause I'm going to use the
remaining part of the property for storage for
balled and burlap holding area.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Now we were all there,
we all visited the site. It's very well
screened, there are cedar trees all the way
around, which I assume will remain or be moved
slightly.
MR. SHIPMAN: The screen is going to
remain.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. I don't think
anyone is even going to be able to see it from
the property. So I think given the size and
the use of the property, I don't have any
questions or problems with it, but we'll see
what the neighbors have to say.
MR. SHIPMAN: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just assumed -- you
gave a practical difficulty that you want to
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53
place this building in 10 feet because you
want to use that space for other parts of your
business.
MR. SHIPMAN: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I have no further
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: No. It's a little
(inaudible) that I drove in, but I think it's
fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a strictly
agricultural building and I (inaudible).
We'll see what develops throughout the
hearing. Please don't leave, okay?
Is there anybody else that would like to
speak -- oh, Cathy, did you want to say
anything else?
MRS. SHIPMAN: No, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. WALTER: Yes. Sean Walter for the
neighbor, William Burns, 1938 Wading River
Manor Road, Wading River. We've got several
things that we wanted to discuss and if you
just give me a moment there's a couple of
things that I want to hand out to the Board
and think it might be easier if I were to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
it out sort of as we go
at this point.
Again, Sean Walter. Mr. Burns is here.
He owns two parcels both immediately adjacent
to this subject premises, Suffolk County Tax
Map number 108-3 lot 8.8 and 108-3 lot 5.9.
can hand you copies -- I apologize because I
so I can explain them,
I
don't have multiple copies.
the survey and the marks on
mine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
property was 8.8 and what,
MR. WALTER: Lot 8.8
It is a copy of
the survey are
You said the Burns
sir?
and 5.9. The reason
I gave you the tax map, if you look we've
indicted Mr. Burns' property and he owns the
flagpole, is part-owner of that 18-foot right-
of-way that is known as Evergreen Street.
He's a quarter-owner in that. The interesting
part about it is he didn't receive
notification from the Town, but the Town's
records were not correct. So he has corrected
the Town records. We're not objecting for
notification.
BOARD ASST.: I was taking a look at it
and I noticed that you're not immediately
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adjacent, but you were in the area to the
parcel on the road.
MR. WALTER: Um-hmm.
BOARD ASST.: It wasn't contiguous to
that parcel.
MR. WALTER: It is contiguous. That
flagpole, this and this is going to be part
-- if you look at Mr. Burns' lot 8.8.
BOARD ASST.: Okay.
MR. WALTER: That is, if you will, a
flagpole. I'm sorry, I have another --
BOARD ASST.:
right here. 8.8
(inaudible).
MR. WALTER:
right on the --
BOARD ASST.:
I have the County Tax Maps
shows as further down
This and the flagpole is
Yeah, see this line here,
this lot 8.4 that was given notice and now
(inaudible).
MR. WALTER: Yeah, they didn't have the
right information.
BOARD ASST.: They had the right mailing
address.
MR. WALTER: Well, they didn't, but we
corrected it.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
BOARD ASST.:
MR. WALTER:
corrected it.
BOARD ASST.:
mailing.
MR. WALTER:
disputing that.
that.
The issue,
Yeah.
The Assessor's Office
We complied with the
Yeah, that -- we're not
We don't have an issue with
there's a couple of issues and
I want to present the hearing in three
different ways. I think what's happening here
is the agricultural law for the Town of
Southold is being a little bit expanded. They
may be driving a truck through it with this
application and I'm going to explain why.
If you could turn your attention, I think
the first thing to look at is that survey and
again I apologize I don't have a copy, but you
should -- you may have the survey. Mr.
Shipman's property does not front on that
small dirt road. I believe the Zoning
Inspector has basically said that he's looking
for a front yard setback and a side yard
setback. That dirt road, he has no access to
that property and this may be a Town Attorney
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sorry, two front yards. He's looking for an
83 percent variance, which is obviously
substantial, so I believe the call of the
meeting is incorrect in that regard. I have
another, if you need another copy of that
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question more than it is a Zoning Board
question, but he has no access to that road.
I respectfully suggest that this is the only
application you may have seen this morning
that only has one front yard because his road
frontage is along Main Road. That being said,
the backyard setback for this Zoning District,
given the nonconforming lot is 60 feet with
20-foot on either side. So I've made some
markings on this. The relief that they would
be seeking for a rear yard setback is 83
percent. The only way around this, if you
will, would be to merge the parcels and if you
merge the parcels obviously you wouldn't have
the setback issue, but there's -- I know the
Board can make a determination, but even if
you make a determination as to whether he has
two side yards I still respectfully submit
that that 10 foot line is his backyard line
even if he has two front yards. Rather, I'm
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that's marked up, just to look at, I can give
it to you cause I'm sort of done with that.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: In brief response,
I know that the Building Department does look
at rights-of-way as streets, not whether or
not the adjacent property has access over it,
so right or wrong that's the way they've been
doing it for quite some time and that's how
they determine what you -- where your front
yards are.
MR. WALTER: If you were to look at it, a
reasonable interpretation of that would show
then that you have two front yards and my
experience then would be that that 10-foot
would still be the rear yard, especially if
you're going to look at a right-of-way versus
25 being the two front yards. I think it
makes more sense that the 10-foot line is the
rear yard line, but again that's going to be -
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, I think with
the way they practice and someone might know
this better than me, but I think the way they
practice is when you have two fronts you can
pick your rear yard.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
MR. WALTER: I don't dispute that, except
that I think it's for the Zoning Board to
interpret that, at this point, given the fact
that you're talking about 25 being Main Road
as a front yard versus a -- Evergreen, which
the owner has no property rights over. So I
leave that to the discretion of the Zoning
Board because I think that it would be more
appropriate to view the primary front yard,
which is what you're talking about along 25,
not along a road that they do not have access
to. I mean it really is a deeded right-of-way
and it's a dirt road so, that being said, I
want to move to the next issue --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you raise an
interesting point, let me just say this,
counsel. What we normally do and the
advantages of having these meetings during the
day is we send counsel over back to the
Building Department and they can talk to them
rather than have to adjourn this hearing to
another date and we could do that very easily.
He can present his case to the Building
Department, they can come back to us and say
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
they were either in error or it stands.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But, Gerry, it's Mr.
Shipman's application {inaudible) so I'm not -
he can't go plead that to the Building
Inspector. He has to plead that to us and we
have to either accept it or go ask the
Building Inspector if he could do --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, just a
minute, before you even go that far, I asked
the Building Inspector to come here today.
He's not available.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's fine, but I
don't think you could ask this gentleman to go
plead his case as to whether that's a front
yard, a side yard, or whether it's good, bad
or indifferent cause the Building Inspector's
made his decision and if we're unclear about
it certainly we can ask that question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm not --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Certainly Mr. Shipman
doesn't need to be bothered with that, he's
the applicant.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
could not agree with you,
more,
I'm not unclear. I
to a certain degree,
except that this is still America and he
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is a contiguous owner. If he so chooses, as
counsel, to go over and speak to the Building
Inspector he can certainly do so. Okay and
that's my opinion and it'll always stand that
way. Okay, in this particular case
(inaudible).
MR. WALTER: The next issue, which is
equally as troubling, under the Code for
agricultural uses, under the Town Code this is
Section -- it is Section 280.15, accessory
buildings and structures and it specifically
speaks to the agricultural district. My first
part of the presentation is working on the
presumption that this is a working tree farm
and then I'm going to go into the second part.
So under the presumption that this is a
working Christmas Tree farm or tree farm, the
agricultural buildings under Section 280.15 of
the Code of the Town of Southold require on a
parcel that, and this is subsection C, require
that a parcel that's 40,000 square feet to
59,999 square feet the agricultural structure
cannot be more than 750 square feet. This is
a 2600 square foot building that clearly --
and I've read the Code a number of times --
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that's clearly something I believe the
Building Department missed in this
application.
So that is a 75 percent variance he's
asking for and the Code is pretty clear and,
again, it's subject to the Zoning Board of
Appeals, but the Code is pretty clear and
unambiguous on the point that the buildings
are not to exceed this dimensional requirement
because then it goes on to say that if the
parcel is over 60,000 square feet you could
have something that doesn't exceed 3 percent.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, the issue
there is that agricultural buildings are
treated under the principle yard requirements,
okay, not treated as accessory under the
accessory structure requirements. So they're
treated -- for the setbacks and lot coverage
of a principle use.
MR. WALTER: I'll just put it on the
record, I respectfully disagree. The Code is
not written that way.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It says those
words, you use it for agricultural accessory
structures they're treated under the principle
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
yard requirements. I think those are the
three words that are used. I'll pull out the
Code.
MR. WALTER: Okay. I mean it's our
position that the building is limit to 750
square feet. The principle use is agriculture
and the storage is an accessory use to that.
That's our position regarding that issue.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I -- my interpretation
of what I understand the Code to be is exactly
what the attorney's interpretation is.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I'll go pull out
the Code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We should go and have a
look at that, but I believe that's likely why
this is not in the Notice of Disapproval from
the Building Department because they
interpreted this as a agricultural building
subject to principle setbacks rather than
accessory structure square footage and bulk
schedule. So, you know, that's (inaudible)
things and he can address it right now.
I also think that the Building Department
has made its interpretation about two front
yards and has described setbacks in accordance
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
with their interpretation because inevitably,
whether one is a larger setback or not, when
you have a right-of-way, a deeded right-of-
way, it is still considered in every
application I've seen a front yard. Even
though it may be just a dirt path --
MR. WALTER: It's not a deeded right-of-
way.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Whatever it is, a right-
of-way of any kind, whether it's --
MR. WALTER: It's not a right-of-way --
to Mr. Shipman it's not a right-of-way at any
kind.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, understand that,
but it nevertheless exists on the adjacent
property.
MR. WALTER: I don't dispute that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And as a consequence it
is considered a front yard to somebody.
Obviously, the Building Department has
interpreted this to be a front yard, which
requires a 50-foot setback and the applicant
is applying for 48, which is a 2-foot
difference and that's a really small variance.
MEMBER SIMON: I'd like to follow-up with
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
some questions. First of all, the idea of
what kinds of buildings you could put on
agricultural land isn't a dispute. I would be
surprised if the Code has clauses which
suggest that every barn, for example, on every
farm is an accessory building and limited to
750 square feet. That doesn't seem to be
consistent with what the Town Board must have
had in mind when they drafted the Code, but
that's a question for you just to look at the
Code and I would agree that's a pretty good
reason why the Building Department didn't pick
that up. The Building Department, like the
rest of us, is not immune to making mistakes.
It's not at all clear, yet, that that was a
mistake on their part.
This question about the right-of-way, I
just have a question. This right-of-way, who
owns it and who has the right-of-way over it?
MR. WALTER: Mr. Burns and the four
property owners and I think I gave you my last
tax map. The four property owners.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, they have -- it is by
their right, by their views it is a right-of-
way which they have the right of passage
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
through, Mr. Shipman's property.
MR. WALTER: No, you're speaking about
two different right-of-ways, sir.
MEMBER SIMON: Alright, the one he's
talking about with regard to the front yard,
isn't that the one that is the basis of your -
MR. WALTER: Of the application, yes, for
it to be a front yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not on his property,
this is the right-of-way for the residents
back here.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: For Burns property.
Their right-of-way, Shipman's is over here.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
MR. WALTER: It's more or less four
flagpoles.
MEMBER WEISMAN: This therefore, is the
49-foot front yard, this is a 10-foot side
yard, this is a 40 foot --
MEMBER SIMON: I see. So the question is
if this were not a right-of-way, then the
front yard would be on Main Road.
MR. WALTER: Right, that's correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
the
MEMBER SIMON: Okay, the question is is
right-of-way, which is a right-of-way,
somehow makes that into a front yard or does
not make it a front yard. You're saying it
does make it into a front yard.
MR. WALTER: I'm saying that
it does not
make it into a front yard because Mr. Shipman
has absolutely no use of that right-of-way.
That is the equivalent of their driveway.
It's 18-feet wide, it would be the equivalent
-- well, to a flagpole for those four lots.
So Mr. Shipman's using that road, which is a
driveway, for all intents and purposes, to
show he has a front yard to show he doesn't
need an 83 percent variance.
MEMBER SIMON: If your argument was if
Mr. Shipman were among the several families
that had the right to use it, it would be a
front yard, otherwise it isn't.
MR. WALTER: I would concede that point,
that he has no ability to use that right of
way.
MEMBER SIMON: And so it would
interesting to find out whether the fact that
everybody except one has access to it means
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
that it isn't really a right-of-way for the
purposes of this application.
MR. WALTER: That's correct. It's just -
it basically is a driveway for those four
individuals that live -- well, not individuals
-- those homeowners
that's what it is.
MEMBER SIMON:
that live back there,
So it's not a right-of-
way, it's
MR. WALTER:
that's what it is.
driveway.
MEMBER SIMON:
just simply a shared drive?
A shared common driveway,
It's a shared common
It's not in their deed?
MR. WALTER: We could put -- we didn't
get -- because we didn't get notification,
we're going to ask for the hearing to be held
open at the end of my presentation. We only
had notification by the sign and I was not
able to pull up deeds, but I could get a title
search done and show you he has no access to
that piece of property and that changes the
application drastically, but we have other
things to discuss and I wanted -- I
understand, I don't want to --
I'm going to tread lightly here because I
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
believe what we need to do -- what the Zoning
Board should be doing is kicking this to site
plan and the reason that I say that, and I'm
going to pass up a couple of things, is the
Town -- Mr. Shipman and his family operate
something known as Shamrock Tree Experts and
the Town intuitively knows this and they
intuitively know that he's operating this tree
expert tree spraying service on this farm and
the reason I say it's intuitive, I have four
documents that I want to pass up and you have
copies of them. The first one is a copy of
the letter from the Zoning Board -- excuse me,
from the Planning Board, I took these out of
order. From the Planning Board to the Zoning
Board and they reference this application as
Shamrock Tree Experts.
The next letter
Disapproval and it's
Expert, Incorporated.
letter from you, sir,
is a copy of the
noticed as Shamrock Tree
The next one is the
Mr. Chairman, to the
Planning Board and you're representing it as
Shamrock Tree Expert, Incorporated, and then
the Town Clerk, Elizabeth Neville, also
references this application as Shamrock Tree
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Experts. I'm going to pass these up for your
reference to just put in the record.
Now, I say that to say this, here
Shamrock Tree Expert. Shamrock Tree Expert,
they do pruning off premises, they do pruning,
feeding, spraying, wood chips, cable, tree
removal, firewood sold. They have several
trucks. I believe them to be seven trucks and
what I'm going to now pass up to you are two
separate packages, these are the
advertisements for Shamrock Tree Experts and
these are listings for Shamrock Tree Experts
in the local aborvitae -- horticultural
listing, agricultural
Anyway the first
Shamrock Tree Experts,
proprietor. The next
listing, excuse me.
advertisement shows
Mr. Shipman is the
one shows that this
listing was from the Yellow Book and you can
open the Yellow Book and see that this is
here. The next one is also a listing from the
White Pages in the Yellow Book. It's
interesting here and I've seen this before, he
lists his address at his home as
Expert, which is a small parcel.
Shamrock Tree Experts is on this
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Shamrock Tree
All the
farm. So
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
we've got an advertisement in the Yellow Book
Shamrock Tree Expert. If you call Shamrock
Tree Expert you're going to get his home, his
garage phone is going to ring and you're also
going to get Shamrock Christmas Tree Farm.
Then the last listing was taken from the
Suffolk Times and I didn't actually Xerox
this, but I looked at this morning's Suffolk
Times and this ad is also in here. So you've
got three copies of advertisement showing he's
operating a tree business from this farm.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're not in the
parcel that is the crux of this application.
MR. WALTER: Well, I'm getting to that
application, I'm getting to that.
I want to present, these were pictures
taken yesterday. Mr. Shipman, we said the
average size or similar screening trees may be
10 feet, but the average size of the Christmas
trees are about 8 feet. He has several large
vehicles on the property. What I'm going to
show you are pictures of the vehicles that
clearly are not vehicles that you would use
around a farm. You have a picture of the
exact same, I believe, cause I have the
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
elevations, he has this exact same barn on the
farm itself. We also have pictures of, I
believe, the plastic tent he was talking
about. I have pictures of firewood being
stored, which is consistent with him selling
firewood. There are some nice pictures of the
field. We've got pictures of the vehicles
inside the barns.
Ail of these vehicles, if you will, are
on an agricultural property getting the
benefit, and I don't know that they're getting
the benefit of the agricultural exemption, but
these pictures show a commercial use of an
agricultural parcel and the reason that I'm
presenting this today is to say that he needs
site plan approval. He needs site plan
approval on this parcel, but given the
situation on this parcel, it's fairly
reasonable to believe that what he's doing
there, in my interpretation in doing this a
little while, that you're going to have the
same type of use on this parcel, which is the
parcel in question, which is why I'm saying it
needs to go to site plan.
Let me show you these pictures.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I need to say very
briefly that our Town Code is very clear
because we were instructed by the New York
State Court that the only Town official that
can make a site plan determination that is
whether a business needs site plan or not, is
our Building Inspector. So this Board can't
send anybody to site plan.
MR. WALTER: What I'm saying is that this
application is improperly before this Board
right now. That's what I'm saying; it is
improperly before the Board. This should have
been referred to the Board by the Planning
Department as part of the site plan review.
The Building Inspector, I agree with you,
should have pushed this to site plan. It
should have --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I'm not saying he
should have, I'm saying he's the only one that
could have.
MR. WALTER: I don't dispute that.
That's why I'm saying it's improperly --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I know you're
agreeing with me, but it's something I didn't
necessarily say.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: The point is that we can't
deal with it if it was assigned to us by
mistake, we don't have the power to then pass
it to somebody else.
MR. WALTER: No. I think the only thing
you can do is deny it and basically say we
don't believe it has the use -- that we don't
believe that this property has the use because
the parcel in question is an R-80 zoned
parcel. To put up a 2600 square foot building
given the circumstances of what's going on on
the other parcels and not think that possibly
they're just expanding farming a little bit
more.
I think it's
Zoning Board that
sort of an affront to the
this has happened, at this
point, because I really do believe and I don't
take this application lightly. I mean I'm not
somebody that normally comes up. I was
Riverhead Town Attorney, Deputy Town Attorney.
I don't normally take applications to try to
oppose other applications, but when my client
brought this
neighborhood,
is something
in here being a resident in that
I looked at it and I said this
you really should look at a
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
little more closely. This is not confined to
one small one acre parcel and we are going to
ask you to hold the hearing open because I'd
like to get local real estate person to come
in and address the property values.
Mr. Burns, and I'll say this, you can ask
Mr. Burns questions, I was at the parcel this
morning, I saw them filling up trucks with
agricultural fuel. I saw them -- the one
parcel Mr. Burns has where his son lives, the
heavy equipment is driving back and forth, so
it really is more of a commercial use and I
just feel that the Town has to look at it.
MEMBER OLIVA: That right-of-way? Is he
using that right-of-way as a commercial --
MR. WALTER: No, it's another -- Mr.
Burns' property that's off Elijah Lane. They
have a road coming right past his house so
there's heavy commercial trucks going through
here so, again, I believe the Board should
make a denial of this because the use doesn't
exist.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just comment on
that? I mean I'm reading the Notice of
Disapproval, which is, you know, how he gets
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
here, and Building Inspector is saying to us
they asked for a permit to construct an
agricultural storage building by an existing
tree farm property. So I mean the Building
Inspector looked at the application and
determined what it was and is telling us what
it is right there. I mean, for you to say now
that we can somehow turn it down cause we
interpret the Building Inspector to be not --
I don't know, I don't know how you possibly
can do that if we're not going to hear
testimony on it. There's really no reason for
us to hear testimony on it because the
variance -- the application is asking us to,
you know, grant a variance based on the Notice
of Disapproval and only on the Notice of
Disapproval. I would think that your recourse
is not with us, but rather after we make a
determination, you know --
MR. WALTER: Our recourse is an Article
78, that's what our recourse is.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, right.
That is the -- I mean us turning them
down for what he's been denied for is wholly
different from us turning him down because you
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
think it's something other than what the
Building Inspector interprets it to be.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You could appeal
the Building -- if it's still timely, you
could appeal the Building Inspector's
determination yourself.
MR. WALTER: In this forum, this is the
way -- where we are now in the public hearing
aspect of life, this is where the Zoning Board
-- I'm trying to raise your understanding of
the application in the hope that the Zoning
board says, listen we need some more
information and demand that the Building
Inspector come down here and give testimony,
which is certainly within the purview of the
Zoning Board.
That's what I'm asking, I'm asking you to
look at this a little more critically and ask
for the Town to present its case because if I
move into -- unless you would like testimony
from my client, we're going to -- we haven't
- he hasn't, Mr. Shipman, hasn't even
addressed even one of the criteria in Town law
and if you look at that he hasn't made out a
case, at this point, which would even qualify
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
you to make a decision and -- bear with me for
a second.
I'm not -- I don't want to repeat the
five factors, but we all know there's five
factors Mr. Shipman has to satisfy. Whether
there is an undesirable change to the
neighborhood, we're saying there is an
undesirable change to the neighborhood because
this has become a commercial operation and we
believe it's expanding a commercial operation.
I can bring my client up and he can testify to
that effect.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But again, Mr.
Walters, we are referring to this particular
piece of property, which is substantially,
although contiguous, substantially farther
away from your client's property. I'm talking
about the nature of this application.
MR. WALTER: Right and I'm saying this is
what I'm addressing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm sorry, but I
don't think that you're addressing it. I
think that you're asking us to reinterpret the
Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval.
You're saying -- I mean, anybody can come in
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
to us and say oh, no, no, that's a commercial
operation. You know, or a guy says he's a
farm and you're coming to us and saying, no,
no, no that's not what it is, here's what it
is. Well, the guy who interprets that is
telling us something different. If you have a
problem with that, your recourse is after we
make a decision or like our Town Attorney
said, in my opinion, our Town Attorney said
appeal this.
MR. WALTER: But we can't because it was
done in the winter, I think we're past the
longest was four months. So we're past that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You still have recourse.
MR. WALTER: We have to appeal the
decision of the Zoning Board of Appeals.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Now, I mean for
you to ask us based on what you think is
commercial then we're basing -- actually not
making that decision now.
determining whether this
operation or not.
We're not
is commercial
MR. WALTER: Well, what I'm saying is
that it's improperly here before you and what
I'm asking is for you to look at it more
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
critically and ask the Town to come and
present testimony.
MEMBER SIMON: I think I understand the
kind of box that you're in and that maybe
everybody's in is that if you're going to
appeal a Building Department finding whether
you can -- there's not going to be a proper
body to appeal this to. If we're the body to
do so, then that has to be briefed and
presented as a separate action. I don't see
how we can legitimately act as if we were
doing this and pretending that we're really
deciding the case that came before us. Those
are two very different things and they need to
be argued very differently.
MR. WALTER: I agree. I don't have --
there's not -- I mean obviously the records of
the Building Department are open. I believe
this denial was issued in February. So
February, March, April, May, June. We're
already out of time to appeal the Building
Department's decision. Could we have known
about it? I guess we could have if we checked
the records about this decision.
So all we're left with right now is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
appealing this application.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Would you be amenable to
us getting the Building Inspector here next
meeting?
MR. WALTER: Absolutely.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I think we're --
MR. WALTER: That's what I'm asking.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- quibbling with that
and everything else that comes after that
could be based on --
MR. SHIPMAN: Could I address the Board,
Gerry?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. SHIPMAN: I believe, after everything
that you've heard, I believe that this is a
personal issue between Mr. Burns and myself.
Mr. Burns moved out here approximately 6-8
years ago. In the time period that he lived
here we gave him clear access from his right-
of-way road, his flag lot road from his house
to his son's house who lives on Elijah's Lane
at the other entrance to the farm. For six
years we never
sudden we have
why.
had a problem, now all of a
a problem and I'll tell you
About three years ago or two years ago
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
we started getting a lot of vandalism on the
farm, equipment being smashed, things being
stolen. We explained to Mrs. Burns that we
needed to close the access off back to Mr.
Burns' house, we bermed it and be planted it
with heavy screening material. I believe that
this is a personal issue because we did that.
Now for him to go his son's house he has
to go all the way out to the Main Road, go to
the Main Road, come down Elijah's Lane to go
to his son's house, but for the five or six
years that we let his pass through the farm,
him, several other neighbors, his children,
his friends, his delivery trucks, there was
never a problem. Now all of a sudden I needed
to protect my best interest, which was the
farm, and our equipment and things being
stolen and vandalized and broken. I never
accused him of anything, I just told him I
needed to block off that entrance and I did in
my best interest. Since then, I believe that
is what this is all about, it's a personal
thing. I don't believe that prior to that he
would ever have thought about complaining to
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
the Building Department about anything. I
have nothing else to say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Do you
want to --
MR. WALTER: It's not worth addressing.
I mean, it's the subject of the meeting here
we acknowledge he closed off the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to
continue with what you were saying when I
stopped you?
MR. WALTER: I guess what the question is
-- I mean, the five factors for this property
have not been established not even remotely
been established. I don't want to take your
time to go through them. I think you know
what they are. We believe that even this
application, even if it were a farm or an
agricultural application, is going to present
an undesirable effect to the front access
point to my client's house. We believe --
we'd like to have an expert witness have the -
- be afforded the opportunity, since we did
not get the notice in the mail and we
corrected that and we're here, be afforded the
opportunity to have an expert come in to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
testify to the property values of having this
type of operation in the front.
The second factor, this could easily be -
the benefit sought by the applicant could
easily be achieved by moving the building off
the property line and more centering it on the
property. He's not a row crop planter, if you
will. I mean I'm not a farmer, but it's not
row crops. I think you could plant, and I
defer to Mr. Shipman, I think you could plant
Christmas trees around the building, maybe you
can't. I don't know.
We also believe that the requested
variance is substantial because we believe
that the front yard -- it's an improper
interpretation of the front yard and that he's
looking for a 75 percent variance. We believe
this is an accessory use structure so it's
limited to the 750 square feet. There'll be
an adverse -- the neighborhood is going to be
adversely effected because we also believe and
understand that it's no within the purview if
the Board, but we believe this is going to be
his tree spraying operation, his pruning
operation and everything is going to be taking
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
place out of this and that's the point I'd
like the Board to get more information on and
the difficulty is absolutely self-created. He
could put this building in the middle of his
larger farm. There's large parking areas in
the larger farm. There is absolutely no
reason, again I'll defer, I'm not a farmer,
there doesn't appear to be any reason that
this could not be moved to the larger 7- or 8-
acre parcel and it wouldn't be an issue at
all.
So that being said, we'd like you to keep
the hearing open and we'd be delighted to come
back if the Building Inspector was going to
testify or somebody on behalf of the Town.
Then maybe we could get the title work done
for that road and then present that to the
Board and I can do that even ahead of the
meeting to show that this is nothing really
but a driveway. It's not a right-of-way, it
may say that on his survey, but it's not a
right-of-way. It's a driveway for four
people. If I can show you that then this
application is dramatically different from the
application presented.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to the road to Mr. Burns'
referring to right-of-way
Are you referring
house, are you
over the center of
this particular piece of property, which is
the nature of this hearing?
MR. WALTER: The right-of-way, the road,
the driveway to Mr. Burns' house. Look, I'm
going to call it a driveway. The driveway to
Mr. Burns' house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (inaudible)
Trimball's that goes out to the northwest?
MR. WALTER: Yes. That's his driveway
and this application is using that driveway to
show a front yard and a rear yard to sort of
show that it's only asking for a -- well even
a 10-foot side yard, he's offering a 10-foot
side yard as opposed to 20-foot, so 50 percent
variance. So that's a substantial variance
anyway. I mean it really is 50 percent, but
what I'm saying is he really needs a 75
percent variance given the circumstances that
that is a driveway and it cannot be considered
a front yard and I don't believe under any
interpretation, once you get the title work to
that property, I don't think there's any
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
interpretation that you're going to be able to
say that that's a front yard and that's
something the Building Inspector didn't have.
Ail the Building Inspector had is a survey
that says this as a right-of-way. It's not
really a right-of-way, it's a driveway for
these four people.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: For the record
that's tax map number 8.4.
MR. WALTER: Uh --
BOARD ASST.: Which is the right-of-way,
right, that you're talking about.
MR. WALTER: You know,
BOARD ASST.: For the
Counsel?
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
things and I'm not going
the driveway.
record that is.
Just a couple of
to respond to
everything you said cause I'll keep -- give
the Board that discretion. In terms of
whether this should be treated as an accessory
structure or a principle structure, if you
look at Section 280-13 of the Town Code A(2)
following agricultural operations and
accessories A(2) are permitted and subsection
(c) says barns, storage buildings,
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
greenhouses, and other related structures
provided that such buildings shall conform to
the yard requirements for principle buildings.
The reason I recall this is I was at
several of the hearings related to the new
accessory structure law and it was a concern
of the agricultural community that they not be
boxed in, so to speak, and that their barns
and storage structures would not be treated
under the new accessory structures law and it
was everybody's understanding, at that time,
that that would not be the case. So that does
not knock out all of your arguments, I'm just
saying use it as guidance.
MR. WALTER: It just takes away the
argument that he's limited to 750 square foot
as opposed to 2600.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: 2600 (inaudible).
MR. WALTER: 2,666 square feet, I
acknowledge that and if it -- unfortunately, I
don't want this to go to Article 78 cause I
think that's a colossal waste of everybody's
time. If we can resolve this issue with the
Board, with the homeowner, with Mr. Shipman, I
think that we would be amenable possibly to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
sit down to do that, but this is going to be
an interpretation for the Court,
unfortunately, if we can't.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, you're going
to lose this case and I'll tell you the reason
why, okay? It's going to be real simple
because every farmer that retired out here and
retained his property or her property for the
sole purpose, if you're talking use, for the
sole purpose of preservation, okay, did it and
kept a portion of their agricultural use and
their agricultural buildings and still use
those buildings. They are either rented to
the person that's planting sod or they're
running their own operation out of there and
doing some stuff on the side. They have all
their tractors in the buildings, they have all
the names on all that machinery. I don't care
if this building, if this property is a tree
farm, a muskrat farm or any other kind of farm
that we have here, alright? The man is
running what I consider to be a legitimate
operation and he's doing it very well.
I understand also that those lots over on
Elijah's Lane are a little small and not to
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
the extent of the lot that is on the private
right-of-way, but I would give you extensive
testimony after your real estate broker comes
in, cause I happen to be a real estate broker
also, to the point that very simply there are
some things that you brought up that are
interesting, but the majority of the issues
that you have brought up have very little
credence to your case in reference to this
particular piece of property.
We have, in the past, in the last 28
years, taken testimony on one farm and that
was the farm on Albers Lane in Cutchogue where
the Farm Select Committee told them to place
their plastic greenhouses in back of their
house and they chose to place them on the
road, adjacent to the road parallel to the
road of which a neighbor complained across the
street and that is the only act that I can
remember that we have ever had a complaint on
use.
As to your situation regarding the issue
of setback from the Trimball right-of-way,
we'll refer to it as the Trimball right-of-way
because Trimball is the closest one to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
road, there were some interesting points on
that and that's why I asked you to speak to
the Building Inspector if you thought that was
the case.
I, in my particular opinion, this could
all be done as a nature of you could very
simply give us your dossier, so to speak;
however, I will leave it up to the Board to
make that determination if they very simply
want to hold this hearing over. That's the
story in my particular opinion.
So we go from there. Are we going to
hold it over or not?
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have two choices, we
can either do that or we can close it subject
to information that we request from the
Building Inspector to clarify.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What do you think,
counsel? I hate to put you on the hot seat.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, I mean it --
I don't think that you should just go speak
off the record with the Building Inspector
when we're in a public hearing format. So if
you think you require more information, either
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
have everybody submit it in writing or keep
the hearing open.
BOARD ASST.: The Building Inspector said
that he would be present at hearing. He was
planning to be here actually today.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I had spoken to his
this morning. He was coming at 1:00 for
another hearing that we're having. I, again,
in my overall career of everything I've ever
done I've never set anybody up and he would
have to know that he was here if we were to
carry this hearing on this afternoon. Okay?
So I think he needs time to prepare for this
hearing and I think that would be the only
fair thing to do in that respect.
MEMBER SIMON: I would be unhappy to
close the hearing because I cannot anticipate
the kinds of questions which might emerge
after we've seen the document. It's messy,
it's complicated, it's got many elements and
the cautious, conservative, safe thing for me
to do is not to close the hearing. That's my
own personal view, that's my vote unless I'm
persuaded otherwise.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Ruth?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
I'm just confused, period.
MEMBER OLIVA:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so in that
particular situation and the ability to ask
questions I think we have no other choice but
to hold the hearing open. So --
BOARD ASST.: We haven't given him a time
if you want a time it's July 24th at 2:45?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we will
adjourn the hearing to July 24th at 2:45. I
offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER OLIVA: I'll second it.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6177 - Richard and Betsy Perkins
(Member Dinizio was absent for this
hearing.)
MEMBER SIMON:
"Requests to Variances under Section 280-
15, based on the Building Inspector's amended
May 1, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
proposed accessory garage which will: (1)
exceed the code limitation of 22 feet in
height maximum, and (2) exceed the code
limitation of 750 feet maximum on a lot
measuring 42,750 square feet in size.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Location: 305 Ole Jule Lane, Mattituck; CTM
114-12-14.2."
I would postpone any further questions
until I hear the presentation from the
representative.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, good morning or
afternoon actually. Patricia Moore. I have
the pleasure of having Betsy Perkins as my
legal secretary and Richie Perkins is a Police
Officer right now on disability, but he's also
-- both of there are local and live here.
This is their primary residence.
To begin with, they lost their existing
attached garage when Betsy's mom is moving
into the house with them, Richie is a good
son-in-law and allowed that to occur, but he
lost the garage and for the vehicles, the
storage, all the kids' stuff, they absolutely
need a garage. So when they were designing
the garage, Mr. Fowler designed it for them,
the peak of the roof was one which matched the
architectural style of the existing house,
which exceeds the height by a few feet due to,
again, the peak that is accentuated matching
the style of the house. The square footage,
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
quite frankly, is when Mr. Perkins measured
the size of his car, the amount of stuff that
they have and just the room that people need
it just needed to be slightly over the minimum
requirements, I believe a difference between
the Code 750 and what we propose is 202 square
feet. So it was slightly over what is the
permissible size limitation, but they have a
lot of stuff and it's trying to meet the needs
of the family as well as being in conformity
with the rest of the neighborhood, the Ole
Jule Lane predominantly year-round homes. The
property has open space behind it. It's well-
vegetated, very mature vegetation which they
have planted over the years that they have
lived in the house and they plan to retain the
screening and the vegetation that's in place.
So the placement of the garage is such that it
will protect and preserve the existing privacy
with the screening that's along the property
line.
I have them both here and they'll be
happy to answer any questions that you might
have.
MEMBER SIMON:
I just have a question.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
As I understand the argument for the increase
in height is essentially aesthetic, which is
not trivial.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. It is, yes, I think
that -- yes.
MEMBER SIMON: It's an -- it's something
we take very seriously because we get a lot of
requests based on aesthetics through the Town
and we sort through them. Certainly you know,
we all know that nobody has an absolute claim
on something on purely aesthetic reasons.
They are what they are and what the extent of
it is.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: And part of this for
example would depend on how much of a variance
in height is at stake. If you were asking for
as much of a variance for the height as he is
asking for the size of the garage, it would be
a little more problematic, but then there's
the question of the -- the question regarding
the garage has to do with the need for space
and unless I'm wrong about this there is no --
by Code a person would be allowed to build a
second accessory building on the lot separate
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
from the garage; am I right about that? If
you have an accessory garage --
MRS. MOORE: I don't know that there's a
limitation on the number of accessory
buildings, correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
coverage.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
No, it depends on lot
Yes, lot coverage.
(Inaudible) lot coverage.
If it's consistent with lot coverage. Okay so
then what he is asking and maybe this is the
case you want to make, is rather than build a
second accessory building which you would do
as a right, what he is appealing for is a
on lot coverage so that he can have a
variance
MRS. MOORE: Not for lot coverage.
MEMBER SIMON: Sorry, on area, to hammer
those two buildings into one, which then
requires a variance.
MRS. MOORE: Correct. Very well --
MEMBER SIMON: Is that what you're asking
for?
MRS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you for the
argument. Essentially the 202 square feet is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
essentially the size of the shed, which would
necessitate another building, another expense
and more clutter on the property. So to the
extent that you combine the two and ask for a
relatively reasonable variance that is not too
intrusive on the neighborhood, it makes more
sense to do it that way than to, as you said,
put multiple structures provided you don't
exceed the lot coverage, but we are nowhere
near exceeding the lot coverage here. So,
yes, I think that that's a very strong point
that --
MEMBER SIMON: I didn't mean to make that
as an argument.
MRS. MOORE: No, I think it's legitimate.
It's a legitimate and certainly if the Board
were to deny it his recourse would be get a
big shed and that's not what they want.
Any other questions?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I have --
MRS. MOORE: Yes, go right ahead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Pat, the drawing
submitted by the architect, two elevations and
one floor plan --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- show a stair and an
elevation that shows from grade to the eave of
10-foot high, which is fairly high ceilings,
and a second floor that would be 15 feet high
from the eave to the ridge.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is no second floor
plan submitted, clearly because it's drawn in
there is a second floor.
MRS. MOORE: There will be storage space
up there.
Have you thought at how you -- what
you're going to use to create the storage
space?
Why don't you
MR. PERKINS:
Lane.
just go on the record?
Rich Perkins, 305 Ole
We're just basically -- the 10-foot
garage is standard size height for a garage.
The peak is a 12/12 peak that's what matches
the existing front of the house and that's
where the 15-foot extra is.
MRS. MOORE: They're asking are you
putting a floor in or anything?
MR. PERKINS: A plywood floor.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: Obviously the stairs
have to go someplace. We don't have a second
floor drawing.
MR. PERKINS: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So you're just going to
use that for storage?
MR. PERKINS: Just for storage of
whatever we can use for storage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so the garage will
remain unheated?
MR. PERKINS: Yes. There's no heat in
the garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No plumbing?
MR. PERKINS: Just a water spigot
probably for a sink.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And outside water --
MR. PERKINS: Probably a utility sink,
possibly, inside the garage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just electric then,
light bulbs and stuff like that for the
inside. Okay, that -- I wanted that
clarified.
MRS. MOORE: Just to point out they do
have a large truck that he drives around and
the height of the first floor it getting more
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
and more difficult with the height of the
trucks to get clearance. So the 10 feet is
primarily to give access.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you have a basement
in your house?
MR. PERKINS: Yes, we do.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Then you really have a
lot of stuff. The basement is often used for
storage.
MR. PERKINS: Yeah, the basement is damp.
It's wet. It's more of a logistical problem
getting things down into the basement than it
would be. The Bilco door the storage is on
the other side, the northernmost side, of the
house which is problematic getting things
there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is
through the Bilco doors?
MR. PERKINS: Yeah, we have stairs down
from the interior.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, but you're saying
your basement is damp and --
MR. PERKINS: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- holds mechanical
equipment so the storage of certain items is
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
not very good in that --
MR. PERKINS: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- in those
environmental conditions, is that --
MR. PERKINS: If you have anything it
comes out moldy and mildew.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, no further
questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: Rich, you know, it's a
very large garage. It's almost the size of my
house, 952 square feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, 925.
MEMBER OLIVA:
proposed garage is
BOARD ASST.:
MR. PERKINS:
had was 24 by 24
925, it says area of the
952 square feet.
952 on the (inaudible).
Our the original garage we
and when I purchased my truck
the truck did not fit into the garage. The
truck is 21 foot long, plus the bumper, plus
the hitch, so it's almost 22 foot long. Our
garage was 23 foot deep. The width of the
truck barely made it inside the doors and
that's what started this whole ball rolling as
far as making another garage.
MEMBER OLIVA: You need the height in
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here.
MR. PERKINS: Correct, plus being able to
open the doors. Being able to walk through
there and get stuff out without having to pull
the truck out. It all became problematic and
that's why we decided to make the garage a
little larger than what we had. The original
garage was 24 by 24 approximately, this is 28
by 33. So my hope was to be able to store
stuff, my lawnmower, my motorcycle in front of
the -- in front of the vehicles and have room
to be able to get them in and out. The hope
was to be able to put stuff in front of the
vehicles, have room to walk around, be able to
open the doors without hitting, you know,
dinging the doors and you know be able to
change the oil without having to take
everything out of the garage to have room to
do that during the winter.
With that I might be able to get a small
workbench in the front (inaudible) to that
effect. There'll be more
pull the car up, too. So
are (inaudible).
MEMBER OLIVA: Are
room to be able to
the length and depth
you putting shelving
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Yeah, I'm sure
in there, too?
MR. PERKINS:
the sides.
MEMBER SIMON: Short question, how big is
the truck and what type of truck is it?
MR. PERKINS: It's a Ford Fl50 four-door.
shelving on
I just purchased it a month before the gas
prices went up. So, you know, that -- the
doors open and the kids slam open the doors,
so we need the space on each side for the
truck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, for somebody
that has a four-car garage that can't get one
thing in I'm going to be real sympathetic on
this. I want you to know that and as long as
you only use it for storage purposes I'm going
to be real sympathetic.
So it's going to go to the Board for a
decision. I mean conceivably you have to look
at it pragmatically. I'm sure Pat's mentioned
this to you before and that is if you'll
accept alternate relief if we -- you need
three votes, okay. You possibly have one
right now, so, you know, it could be downsized
a little bit and my suggestion is, I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
normally prompt people to do this, that you
not say, yeah, okay if you can't agree on that
rather than a denial let's cut it down a
little bit here or there or whatever the case
may be.
MR. PERKINS: We did draw the plans
downsized after Mrs. Moore said you might want
to cut that down, which we did. The original
was 30 by 35 or something to that affect, but
we did, you know, try to cut it down to what
we thought would be the minimum that we could
use.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the degree
above what the maximum or the minimum is,
excuse me, and so I'm still confused about the
last hearing, I do apologize, and so I mean I
would --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just
record is to note that the
appropriate for the
Code says that the
minimum square footage for a house is 850
square feet, this is 952 square feet what
you're proposing. I mean, I haven't made my
mind up, but even though it's 202 square feet
over and I don't think it will have a big
visual impact.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MRS. MOORE: No, I was
point out that the property
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
question about that.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
just going to
is very bid.
it is. There's no
And it's a very big truck.
It's properly placed and
so on, it's still a substantial variance. It
is.
MRS. MOORE: I would just point out that
we are really far back on the property to as
to visually on Ole Jule Lane it's not going to
be -- you won't be able -- the square footage
difference is not so much the width because it
is a normal width. It's the length and that's
all behind the front fagade. So at least when
he was redesigning that was certainly a
consideration to keep the width to the most
reasonable width that you can live with and
put your square footage in a sense towards the
back. Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Anybody
else? Nothing?
Okay, we --
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Seeing no hands
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
cause there's no one else here, but the
applicant and counsel, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6150 - Southold Properties LLC/
Principi Properties
MEMBER WEISMAN:
"Requests for Variances under Sections
280-56 and 280-116B, based on the applicant's
request for a building permit and the Building
Inspector's amended March 25, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning as-built construction
set back less than 25 feet from the westerly
side lot line and proposed deck construction
at less than 75 feet from the bulkhead
adjacent to tidal water, at 64300 Route 25
(a/k/a Main Road, formerly Mill Creek Inn),
Greenport; CTM 56-7-2. District: M-II Marine
Zone."
Now~
necessary
there are a series of variances
for this application, I believe, as
the assigned member, I have gotten all of this
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
straightened out, but there are a few
inconsistencies between the Notice of
Disapproval, which -- let me just see.
Alright, this is amended March 25. The
amended Notice of Disapproval seems to
indicate the proposed rear deck is now noted
as 2.5 feet from the property line. At one
point it was noted as 1 foot. The proposed
decks are now noted as being 1 foot from the
bulkhead at the closest point and I think the
survey indicates something different than
that.
So the first thing we need to do is
perhaps hear from the representative as to
precisely what the dimensions are for setback
variances. There seems to be a single side
yard setback of 4.5 feet, so why don't we just
go over each of those variances.
MS. WICKHAM: Hello, my name is Abigail
Wickham, Mattituck, New York for Southold
Point and Mr. Principi who is here today to
answer questions that I can't.
The setback of the one-story extension
from the side yard is 4.5 feet. The setback
of the east deck, I believe according to the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
survey, is 1 foot 5 inches from the bulkhead
for the closest point of 6 feet. Then there
are steps and then the 23.5 foot length is 13
feet back from the bulkhead cause the deck is
stepped back. The handicap ramp on the east
side is 23 feet 3 inches from the bulkhead.
On the west deck, 6 feet of it is 1 foot 5
inches from the bulkhead and the 22 foot
length is 13 feet from the bulkhead and 2 feet
8 inches from the side yard.
MEMBER OLIVA: The steps?
MS. WICKHAM: The steps 8 feet in width -
oh, I'm sorry, the steps are 8 feet from the
bulkhead and 24 feet 8 inches from the side
yard, which is really a diminutive setback
variation.
So we're basically talking about 4.5 feet
on the one-story extension and 2 feet 8 inches
on the westerly deck from the side yard. From
the bulkhead it ranges from 1 foot 5 inches to
23 feet 3 inches on the east side and 24 feet
8 inches on the west side.
Do you want me to go through my --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The Notice says the
proposed deck both east and west are 1 foot
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
from the bulkhead.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, I don't -- that's
what he said I think when we got the survey it
showed it's actually 1 foot 5 inches.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just want to make sure
that factually we're consistent between what
the applicant is saying, the survey is saying,
the Notice is saying.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do you think you might
need to obtain a corrected Notice?
MS. WICKHAM: I would ask that the Board
deem this Notice corrected. We've already
corrected it several times. Perhaps I could
explain the history here and then explain my
reluctance to do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
MS. WICKHAM: And the reason for that is
all of these structures were built according
to a building permit. They were all built
pursuant to a building permit that the
Building Department issued.
original building, which I
Jeff Sherwood this morning,
actually built during WWII
Starting with the
just learned from
that building was
by Inaudible) who
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
was (inaudible) brother and I guess due to gas
rationing, which we're probably experiencing
again today, people couldn't drive far so he
put the restaurant there and basically people
either went there or Mitchell's. When Mr.
Principi came into the Building Department to
rebuild this building they spent an awful lot
of time, it was a very complex application,
they spent a lot of time looking at the
foundation footprint, looking at what was
actually there so that they would be entitled
to rebuilt as a preexisting structure.
They got the foundation permit -- the
foundation plan all squared away and the
Building Department and everybody was on the
same page and then we went on to do the upper
floors and the diagrams and the plans and
elevations and apparently at some point during
that process while the west side -- once the
extension was built on the location of a
concrete slab that's been there for many, many
years the permit was issued for that one-story
extension, but it wasn't until it was built
that Mr. Verity went by and seemed to think
something didn't look right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
He went back, looked at original plans
and said wait a minute that shouldn't have
been on the permit and asked us to come to the
Zoning Board for the 4.5 foot variance. That
was our original application was just for that
side yard setback on the west side at 4.5
feet.
When it got to the Zoning Board someone,
I don't know if it was Linda or someone,
looked at the whole thing again and said wait
a minute what about the bulkhead setback for
the deck? And that's when looking at those
plans they thought it was 1 foot, I think it's
actually 1 foot 5 inches, frankly, it's
minimally different and that's when we were
there asked to stop work on the deck and to go
ahead and apply for this variance in its
current amended fashion.
We did have numerous meetings with the
Building Department and the applicant did
agree to not work on either of those
structures until this application is resolved.
Now, when we were first discussing with
the Building Department the question of the
one-story extension, which is somewhere in the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
neighborhood of 300 square feet, I think your
papers have the exact dimensions, we felt that
it would have been appropriate to have that
included in the permit and it was properly
included because that structure is going to
house a pantry and a walk-in cooler area and
that structure replaces what was originally a,
basically, a trailer body that had been there
for years and years and years and a shed
extension and another extension that the Town
had issued a permit for and while it wasn't in
the same configuration as this one-story
extension it was actually a smaller, better
built, better looking structure. Mr. Verity
was uncomfortable with that. He felt he would
rather have the Board review it, than have him
make that determination. Those structures
were not any further, the walk-in structure
was not any further from the line than this
proposed building is at 4.5 feet. So -- and
they were all on that concrete slab, which was
in the same area of those structures.
I want to make sure the
that the Building Department
the existing foundation. It
Board has the map
used to look at
has dark areas on
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
it, I don't know if I submitted it. Yeah,
there it is.
Do you have this map that is -- this is
what the map that was prepared and as you can
see this structure and this shed attached and
I'm not sure what that was, that was some sort
of (inaudible) later, but this, these two
structures are bigger than the one-story
extension that has been built there. Oh, as
well as this structure here was added. So you
might want to pass that around (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the westerly?
MS. WICKHAM: That's on the west --
(inaudible) the building now. The westerly --
BOARD ASST.: What is this map, again?
This is part of --
MS. WICKHAM: I have a --
BOARD ASST.: Cause we have different
maps than the Building Inspector's files.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, I have the whole
thing.
BOARD ASST.: That's the preexisting map.
The shaded areas are all preexisting.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The gentleman, Mr.
Principi; is that correct?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. PRINCIPI: Yes.
MS. WICKHAM: Now, also talking about
that one-story extension, 4 feet 5 inches is
close. It's a big variance from the 25 feet
that is required, but again showing from that
map it's not at all appreciably different from
what was there, number one. Number two, it's
a much better structure. It's to Code, it's
energy efficient. It's certainly more
pleasing to look at than the wreck of stuff
that was there before and it does -- while it
won't allow vehicular access, and I know Mr.
Goehringer and others on the Board are
concerned about access to the water, it does
certainly allow enough room for people to get
by there, a stretcher if you needed it so you
could get to that side of the marina if you
needed to get down from the road to the water.
BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, I was just
looking at a pre-demo map that we had in the
file, it's a little different because the deck
was in the one-story area before. That's just
looking at it, you know, but it's the same
footprint area. I'm just confirming the maps
(inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There is it right
there on the other one.
BOARD ASST.: One is shaded and one
isn't. I don't know if you had the surveyor's
map. I don't know if you -- I'm just trying
to identify this other map.
MS. WICKHAM: This is done by the
architect and this is done by a surveyor.
Yeah, okay this is the -- this is a full
version of what I
did it off of the
BOARD ASST.:
here.
just gave you. I think we
entire survey.
Yeah, (inaudible) right
That says Pre-demolition map but it says
from the Building Department's records.
MS. WICKHAM: This
both pre-demolition.
BOARD ASST.: This
is -- well, they're
is done by an
architect without the survey.
MS. WICKHAM:
BOARD ASST.:
together so they
MS. WICKHAM:
Yes.
I'm trying to put this
represent the same purpose.
Okay, the other thing I'd
like to mention and this pertains to the
request for both the deck and the one-story
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
building variance is that the ZBA granted
permission for a one-story building 12 feet by
15 feet, I think, quite sometime ago. You
have that decision in your records and in the
application and that building has been removed
so that will significantly free up a very
significant structure from that whole side
yard and I'd like to submit that the one-story
extension that was built and again the one-
story extension is certainly a more moderate
construction than what was there previously
and on that basis we'd like to ask you to
grant that 4.5 foot side yard setback.
Regarding the decks, again they were on
the building permit when the Zoning Board
looked at the first application the Building
Department went back and realized that that
was issued in error. They did not realize
that that was on the plans when they issued
the permit and the applicant was asked to stop
construction. He did not -- he has not yet
built the western deck. He has started
framing out the eastern deck and we'd like to
submit that in this property in specific and
even in M-II zones, in general, to get 75 feet
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
back from a bulkhead is pretty near impossible
and really contrary to the whole object and
design of an M-II district.
The MII district is really designed to
allow people to benefit from water-related
uses. If you recall when the Town zoned
things M-II they basically did it on
properties in marina and waterfront commercial
areas that were already developed. So we're
not talking about creating a new development
on waterfront that didn't already exist, but
it is a use which is compatible with a Marine
II District, uses which require or benefit
from direct access to or location in marine or
tidal waters, which are generally located on
major waterways.
I think you'll find in the Town of
Southold that there aren't a lot of
restaurants on the water except in this
particular Mill Creek area. There's one in
New Suffolk. There's a couple up by Mattituck
Creek, there's the Soundview and then there's
this area. There really isn't a lot of
waterfront dining in Southold Town and here we
already have a developed area and a marina.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
It just seems to me to be a natural extension
of a restaurant to allow an outdoor deck and I
don't think that the deck is going to
adversely impact on the development or the
perception or the view of the property or
certainly on the viability of the wetlands.
The area is completely bulkheaded. It is a
functioning marina. Ail of the deck area is
contained in very close proximity to the
building envelope itself and it will really
enhance the dining and the restaurant
atmosphere and we ask that you allow it to
continue.
If you have any questions about it in
specific, I'd be glad to try and answer them.
I want to address before I stop talking the
fact that yesterday the LWRP coordinator did
issue a statement that the proposal was
inconsistent from an LWRP review and I'd like
to address that just for a minute. I'd like
to note that his statement was a one line
statement that it was inconsistent. The only
reasoning he cited was a recitation of the 75-
foot setback. He didn't give any reasons as
to why he felt that the decking or the other
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
proposal was inconsistent.
As you look at the LWRP, and I did that,
I went through the policies and whatnot,
you'll find that generally the purpose as I
understood it of the LWRP was to make sure
that construction and usage along the coastal
waterways was done to allow development within
current developed areas to really focus on
things like dredging and marine uses and
development of marinas and things that really
would have a really strong impact on the
viability and importance of our coastal
waterways. I honestly can't say that in my
opinion the addition of a couple of decks off
a restaurant has an inconsistency with an LWRP
policy. If anything, it allows the public
access to a waterfront location in a much more
meaningful way at least in the warmer months.
I do want to mention that these are open --
this is an open deck. They would not be
enclosed or covered and -- or heated or
anything like that, so they would remain open.
There's quite a large dining area inside that
would be sufficient for inclement weather so I
really have to question the inconsistency from
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
the LWRP perspective. I looked at all of the
other policies on developed coast. It's not
inconsistent with historic purposes. It's not
inconsistent with any of those policies in the
LWRP and you know it's long and it's slow
reading, but I just didn't see anything that
struck me as inconsistent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Wickham, that's
why we're probably going to have to adjourn
this hearing to find out what he is asking for
so that we can get a little more determination
from him and you can address that issue at a
final hearing.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, I don't -- I'd like
to submit that he's asking that we amend the
application to meet the above policy to the
greatest extent. I don't think we're
inconsistent with it.
I mean I don't -- if a deck is
inconsistent the only way you can amend it is
to take it off.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
this, let's --
MS. WICKHAM: Here,
CHAIRMAN
Well, then let's do
I have it right here.
GOEHRINGER: I do have it. Are
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
you going to ask a question?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I have questions,
but you first --
MS. WICKHAM: Can I just refer to the
LWRP?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Absolutely.
MS. WICKHAM: The developed coast policy:
policy number 1, foster a pattern of
development -- and I'm going to paraphrase and
skip, I'm not going to read the whole thing --
that makes efficient use of existing
infrastructure and beneficial use of a coastal
location. I think this does support that
policy.
Policy 2, preserve historic resources of
the Town of Southold. Well, this has been a
restaurant for a long time and I think to
continue it is not contrary, whether this is
old enough to be considered what they
determine to be historic I don't know, but if
it's not then it doesn't apply.
Preserve and protect archeological
resources. That policy doesn't apply.
Protect Long Island Sound. That policy
doesn't apply.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Enhance visual quality and protect scenic
resources throughout the Town of Southold.
One of those ways of implementing it is
minimize introduction of structural design
components, utility lines, signing, lighting,
fencing, which would be discordant with
existing natural scenic components and
character. I don't think that the decks, or
the one-story structure for that matter, are
inconsistent with an operating marina and
restaurant behind a full bulkhead.
Another policy implementation is to
protect the visual interest provided by active
water-dependent uses. Again, I don't think
that's inconsistent. I think people who are
boating are going to want to see the ability
to have a restaurant with a deck and it does
not conflict with the concern about changing
the configuration and continuity of natural
shorelines and associated vegetation, which I
think is probably a primary focus of the LWRP.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay --
MS. WICKHAM: That's my little soapbox on
the LWRP. If you have any other questions,
I'd be glad to --
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
all of the water runoff that's
roof, okay.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that by separate letter --
We need to address
coming off the
And so you can do
Discussed with the Town
With the Town Engineer and
will address it in writing
to you it would be a more --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the best way
cause then we can give that to Mr. Terry so
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MR. PRINCIPI:
Engineer.
MS. WICKHAM:
we will -- maybe I
MS. WICKHAM: Okay, I'll -- I'm just
going to refer to my client when I have a --
when you have a question that I --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's respond?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, or I'll have him come
up and address you.
There was a drainage and grading plan
submitted, which would be complied with in
order to get the CO --
BOARD ASST.: Submitted to?
MS. WICKHAM: The Building Department.
Was it submitted to the Building Department?
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ZBA Town of Southold
June 26, 2008
that he can kind of
MS. WICKHAM: Right,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
is.
MS. WICKHAM:
mention is that I
coordinate it with his --
yeah.
-- what his concern
The other thing I want to
believe we're going back to
the Trustees on the issue of the decks and
certainly they're going to have that same
concern and it will have to be addressed
because that would be the only impact that we
would want to be sure is not hitting the water
is the drainage, but that can all be
controlled by the design of the parking area,
the catch basins and I think it has been.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
site plan also.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
It's part of the
Because there's no
infrastructure in reference to site plan, I
mean in reference to ground cover site plan.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, we're not going to
site plan on the restaurant, but we did tell
Mr. Verity that we would go to site plan on
the marina. He made that request, again, I'm
not sure the applicant is required to do that,
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
but he did say he would do that prior to the
CO being issued.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's going to be a
lot of questions, I'm just trying to keep them
straight.
A couple of questions, let's talk about
the decks since that's what we were talking
about. The westerly deck is virtually, other
than the top decking, in place.
MS. WICKHAM: I'm sorry, I didn't hear
you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The westerly deck is not
yet built.
MS. WICKHAM: Correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The easterly deck is
virtually in place, other than the top
decking, it's all framed out. The {inaudible)
are in and (inaudible) okay. That easterly
adjacent to a substantial parking
deck is
area.
MS. WICHAM: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So there's access to the
water. There's, you know, breathing room
around there. In addition to that substantial
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
deck there is a second story deck that is
built over the one-story seaward side of the
restaurant that you can access from the second
floor interior.
MS. WICKHAM: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So there are two
substantial decks in place. Other than the
aesthetic argument of having symmetry on the
waterside of the deck on either side same
approximate size and setback and the economic
argument perhaps of more tables outdoors, I
mean is there a reason why with 2.5 foot side
yard setbacks on that side that that deck on
the westerly side, which
needs to be built?
MS. WICKHAM: Well,
that. First of all, the
is not yet built,
I have two answers to
upper deck above the
one-story is not really part of the
restaurant. The restaurant is only the first
story. What that will be eventually will be
the subject of another application, if any.
So I don't think -- yeah, diners would not be
allowed up there under this particular
application.
Regarding the westerly deck that's not
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
yet constructed, Mr. Principi did tell me that
he would be willing to cut the size of that
down a little bit if the Board had a
suggestion from the side yard to make it less
tight over on that side. 2 feet 8 inches is
close, it was designed that way for
aesthetics, but it doesn't have to be that
big. He would like a deck there just so that
people could access the water on either side
of the restaurant, but he would be glad to cut
it back if you had a suggestion.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay another question
then.
MS. WICKHAM: Willing not
MEMBER WEISMAN: There is
glad.
also noted on
the site plan as well as the floor plan, which
also {inaudible) plan here of boats pulling up
along this walkway, a walkway that runs
virtually on the bulkhead --
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- from one deck to the
other and it's noted at some point as a
covered walkway. Can you explain to me --
I've looked at what's there now which is about
that wide --
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MS. WICKHAM: Are you talking about the
east -- in the east-west direction?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. That is running on
the bulkhead that's a plank walkway.
MS. WICKHAM: Oh, it's been removed.
There's nothing covered there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, there's nothing
covered. At the moment all there is are some,
you know, planks that are about the width is
maybe a foot and a half or something like
that.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What's that all about?
MS. WICKHAM: It's a cap for the
bulkhead. Let me see if I have a photograph
so we can talk about it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, it's on the
elevation that faces the -- it's just about
where the boats would come in. It's high, I
just want to know what its function is cause
it's noted one way on the architectural plan
and what I observed on the site is something
that you could not walk on.
MS. WICKHAM: It's the top of the
bulkhead.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's simply a cap?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, it's not a walkway.
There is a floating dock in the water below
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Right, with steps
going down on the side.
MS. WICKHAM: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I saw that. Alright.
You have it noted as something different. It
was noted that way --
MS. WICKHAM: It's gone.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but it --
MS. WICKHAM: There will be no covered
walkway other than the floating dock in the
marina.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not happening, okay.
Not going to happen.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, it was removed.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's still in the plans,
though. I'm just looking at what I see in the
site and what I'm seeing in the plans. Okay,
it's a bulkhead cap.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay, well we'll amend the
plans to clarify that. Just let me make a
note of that.
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
Yeah, we don't see it on the permit set
of plans, but we'll make sure that, and I'm
sure Mike will too, that what we have in the
file will not show any walkway there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: See right here on the
survey?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and the site plan.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, as I said this has
been a long process with a lot of maps which
accounts for the --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(inaudible).
MS. WICKHAM:
BOARD ASST.:
while we're here.
Yeah, sometimes it
-- confusion throughout.
Well, let's catch them all
MEMBER WEISMAN: One other thing to note
is just as a consequence of the drainage plan
is the large cement wall along Main Road and
on the westerly side of the property, cement
blocks?
MS. WICKHAM: That was put in in
conjunction with Health Department
requirements for drainage.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And septic.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MS. WICKHAM: And septic. It's part of
the grading and drainage plans.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The grading plans for
the -- okay.
Okay, for the moment I'll forego any
other questions and see we have to ask and I'd
like to hear from the Building Inspector at
some point here, though.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I really don't
have any questions. I mean I think I'm
understanding, but maybe you can cut that deck
back a little bit from 2 feet to whatever, but
you're right, it's a huge project, you know --
I'd like to see some cars in front of there at
some point in time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sure they
would, too.
MS. WICKHAM: We could perhaps cut the
deck back to the bottom of the steps there,
that would be less -- that would be further
from the setback than the one-story extension.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you give us the
footage on that?
MS. WICKHAM: I'll have to give you a
footage on that, yeah. I'll put that in my
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letter.
MEMBER SIMON: Part of this is subjective
of questions to ask of Mark Terry in the LWRP.
I find the presentation fairly persuasive,
particularly with regard to the problems of
trying to deal with this project and the
Zoning Code and the recognition of an M-II
area and the LWRP. Of course, we deal with
the Code that we have, and I think a very good
point could be made that the Town Board at
some point might need to amend the Code so
that it doesn't treat M-II like every other
area exactly for these problems. Especially
since M-II was created because of preexisting
properties. I don't know whether there's been
a single waterfront area developed with this -
are there any new M-II areas that weren't
previously used before the Code as marinas and
restaurants. That's why there are no new
restaurants on there.
Now I think, more constructively, I think
you've picked up some points about the LWRP
which doesn't seem to fit very well with
regard to the needs of what are the goals in
preserving property because on the one hand
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
protecting the wetlands by a 75-foot setback
is (inaudible), but to say that we're going to
preserve things and most of which are all well
within 75 feet is a problem. So the LWRP
might be asked this is a positive suggestion,
how would you propose -- did you intend these
things to be prioritized given that the
preservation suggests that it could be built
much closer to the water than was anticipated
in the part of the Code and LWRP. Should
preservation come ahead of the 75-foot setback
rule, for example? I think you'd want to
argue that it should otherwise we're going to
have a problem any time anyone wants to alter
an M-II property.
So I mean that's a matter of trying to
show that the LWRP can be interpreted to fit
and be consistent.
MS. WICKHAM: I don't think -- I don't
think this project isn't preserving
waterfront.
MEMBER SIMON: I know but I'm saying is
what you have -- when preserving, if you read
part of the LWRP and it says preserving is a
value and other people say staying 75-foot
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
back is a value. Instead of having to say the
LWRP is irrelevant it would be good that you
could be coordinated or encouraged to show how
those are not mutually contradictory, which
would then give you, I think, what you want
with regard to the preservation.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah, yeah.
MEMBER SIMON: And the exceptions for
these embarrassingly small setbacks, which are
not a mistake and a part of the tradition. I
mean that's just a matter of structuring an
argument. The other thing is that it is very
-- has been very confusing to me and unrelated
to this question, is in general one of the
things I like to say whenever there is
something that is an as-built and we're asking
here for zoning, a standard which some of us
would like to be able to apply, but can't
always do so, is we have variance -- we don't
try to punish anybody for doing something in
some other property illegally, but would we
have approved it in the first place. In that
case I think that's where the argument to make
is if the fact that something was done and the
stop order had to be issued because the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
variance were not all in place, would that
have mattered? So the idea is to get clear on
what the Building Inspector -- what the
Building Department would have done had it
anticipated all these various ramifications,
which are almost impossible for human beings
to anticipate. So we have something to go on
to apply this kind of test, is would it make
sense if everything had been done perfectly in
the first place and not just perfectly but
completely.
So I guess I am interested in hearing
from the Building Department with regard to
what kinds of things would they, if they had
the chance, would they have this approval or
disapproval say, had they been able to
anticipate everything in the world.
MS. WICKHAM: I think you would have
issued the disapproval before the permit at
that point.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, but was the problem
-- was the permit inconsistent with the
disapproval?
MS. WICKHAM: No, the disapproval came
after the permit.
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MEMBER SIMON: In this case there was a
disapproval then the question that would have
been asked is should there have been a
disapproval and then an application for a
variance --
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: -- and then you could
start --
MS. WICKHAM: Yes, but it was a very
complicated application and lots of maps and
it just --
MEMBER SIMON: I don't think anyone is to
be faulted for not crossing every T and
dotting every I.
MS. WICKHAM: No. I mean we had how many
meetings about the one-story extension and
never even realized about the bulkhead
setback.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, what I think this
Board and some of us are interested in doing,
without having to look too far in to the
history is to look at it, is how would we feel
about this thing if this had been done exactly
the way we wish it had been done.
MS. WICKHAM: Well, that's what I tried
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
to explain earlier that my reasoning was.
MEMBER SIMON: And then we can focus on
the possibly problematic issues like the west
deck, which may be the only things that are at
all at issue whether these findings
(inaudible).
MS. WICKHAM: Okay, I just have one other
comment or maybe it's a question. The LWRP is
a recommendation to you?
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
MS. WICKHAM: So you can act on an
application without getting an approval of the
LWRP coordinator; is that correct?
MEMBER SIMON: Yes, that's true.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes, you are
correct, but I'll just clarify. It is a
recommendation, the LWRP coordinator does not
make the determination as to whether the
project is consistent, he makes a
recommendation. This Board makes the
determination whether it's consistent or not;
however, if the coordinator recommends it as
inconsistent, which you are not bound to
follow, but if you decide, no, we think it's
consistent you'd just have to enumerate the
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
reasons why you disagree or what has changed
that you feel makes it consistent.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we --
MS. WICKHAM: Right and with all fairness
to the LWRP coordinator, he is looking at the
paper without hearing any presentation.
MEMBER SIMON:
the LWRP.
MS. WICKHAM:
MEMBER SIMON:
So that we cannot ignore
Right.
We better have reasons for
cutting it a little bit.
MS. WICKHAM: Correct, okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We again need to
coordinate with them.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, could I just
comment on that? Cause I think there's like a
misleading kind of sentence in the LWRP and it
kind of -- I kind of wish would be changed
because basically he says, no, this is
inconsistent, please make them not need a
variance. That's basically what his comments
are almost 90 percent of the time to us, but
the problem with that is every person that
comes to us needs a variance.
MS. WICKHAM: Needs a variance, that's
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
why we're here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I think we just need
to, you know, somehow take that wording and
make it so that it's not -- you're not
thinking oh, it's inconsistent what do I do
now. We're not
this, but yeah,
he reviews that
that we don't see, but I just
saying oh we have to follow
we have to -- it's good that
because there are some things
think he
shouldn't be saying to us make them or I
suggest that they do this, because that what
he's suggesting is that they not come before
us.
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I just follow up on
that comment?
He would -- I think it would be helpful
to the Board rather than when I have to draft
a finding rather than my attempting to
interpret (inaudible) although I would do that
also.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And my colleagues may
agree or disagree, could you please in writing
address your views about in the M-II zone
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
which is quite different all independent uses
are quite different and how you would
interpret the letter from the LWRP coordinator
relative to your application.
MS. WICKHAM: How I would interpret it or
respond to it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Respond to it relative
to your -- relative to what the statements are
and if you want to make a case that you are
consistent then substantiate the reasons why.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That would be helpful to
us.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And, if not, what
additionally you might be willing to do to
make it more consistent.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
anything is necessary.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
all of the drainage that Mr.
alluding to.
MS. WICKHAM: I just want
If you think
And include in that
Principi is
to mention
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
because we went through a lot of numbers in
the beginning that the, by far, the biggest
portion of these decks is between 23 and 24
feet back from bulkhead. We're not dealing
with 1 foot 5 inches for other than a very
small portion of it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we go on to the
Building Inspector?
MS. WICKHAM: That would be fine with me.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Do you have
a question of the Building Inspector?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
answer it, it's up to him.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
oh.
If he would like to
I think you could
do this. I think we have a greater
understanding based on testimony so far of the
history of exactly what happened, but I think
it would be very helpful from your perspective
as the Building Inspector to describe what
happened. I understand they have a stop work
order on part of the project now, but let's
for the record, you know, have you enter your
explanation about how this all unfolded and
precisely what variances are now needed.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
BUILDING INSPECTOR: In reference to the
west side addition or the decks you're talking
about or --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's address the west
side cause that's the extension and the deck
that is not yet built.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Chief Building
Inspector Mike Verity.
In reference to the addition, it was many
meetings ago and many expeditors and whatever
else, right Rick? Rick and I originally sat
down when they were doing the building and we
established a preexisting or an existing
footprint. Once we did that it kind of went
to the architects,
the Plans Examiner.
exactly the same.
the expeditors and then to
It didn't come back
I didn't see it except f~r
the technical questions and somehow an
addition was put on without a foundation and
the plan that was approved by the Permits
Examiner reflected that addition, Which should
not have been on there, and that's why a stop
work order was put into effect and a variance
was requested for that area.
Pretty much the same thing happened with
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the decks. It wasn't part of the established
footprint that we originally sat down on and
it did come up and was approved by the Permits
Examiner and that was an error by the Building
Department, both the addition and the decks,
but it was not in any way, shape or form the
original discussion that we had for the
original footprint so that's why we had the
stop work orders and that's why we are here
today.
So some point in time it went in the
wrong direction and when I was able to review
the file after there was a little bit of
concern and some question, I realized quickly
this was not the original and again I don't
know where it went wrong, whether it was with
the architect, the -- I don't know, the
expeditor or whoever, but it's -- it just went
in the wrong direction.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Do we need also to
address the ramp at 23 feet from the bulkhead?
BUILDING INSPECTOR: The ramp?
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) that there
was a handicap ramp that was 23 feet --
MS. WICKHAM: That's on the east side.
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BUILDING INSPECTOR: I thought the
handicap was only in the front. I didn't
realize -- is that something else --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I did too, but Gail said
earlier that the handicap ramp is 22 feet to
the bulkhead. I'd like to know where. I only
MS. WICKHAM: The main one to the
building is in the front, the deck, east deck,
also has a handicap ramp.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The east deck that is
there now?
MS. WICKHAM: Yeah. That was part of the
plan.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's not a plan
that I'm aware of. So I can't comment on it,
sorry.
MS. WICKHAM: The ramp has not been
built. The plan that Mike just said was
different than the original foundation plan on
which the permit was issued does show a
handicap ramp on the east side accessing the
deck. It has not been built.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. So are you
still proposing to do that?
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MS. WICKHAM: We were concerned about ADA
disabilities requirement.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: That I think was met
on the front of the building, but if there's
another one then I would like to take a look
at it and it should be addressed at the same
time, but if it would be part of the deck then
MEMBER WEISMAN: That's probably better
off {inaudible). This shows (inaudible).
MS. WICKHAM: He put that on because he
thought it would be required for handicap
access; if it's not, he could eliminate it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to try and catch
everything this first go around, if we can.
MS. WICKHAM: Yup.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So I want to bring that
up because it wasn't noted. It's not built
yet, I didn't observe it on the site.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: No, it actually is
built on the site. It's not built as a ramp
though, it's built as part of the deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: So here it appears
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that it's a ramp.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a ramp.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's correct,
that's why when you said ramp, this is
actually here. You can correct me if I'm
wrong, but it appears to be a level surface
but
which is part of the deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
just know what we're -- are
ramp there?
BUILDING INSPECTOR: I
right. I want to
you proposing a
would just
consider that as part
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
BUILDING INSPECTOR:
unless they're going to
ramp there, but I don't
of the deck.
Yeah, it's built
tear it down and put a
think that would make
sense to me and it's probably too high and too
long to be Code compliant.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You'd have to build it
out to the parking lot to meet the
requirements.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, so it wouldn't
meet the requirements, so --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a 1:10 slope so
they're not going to make it.
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BUILDING INSPECTOR: This is -- again,
I'm not for or against, this is just the
points I was making about how things seem to -
I wasn't even aware of a ramp. I thought it
was a deck so that's why --
MEMBER WEISMAN: The ADA requires --
MS. WICKHAM: I thought it was a ramp,
but apparently it is a deck.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: It is a deck.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay, sorry.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. WICKHAM: It's supposed to be a ramp,
but it's a deck.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It is a deck now and
there's a ramp in the front.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The ADA only requires
one accessible entrance zero threshold from
the interior to the exterior, which you have.
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But you are not by law
required to put in an additional exterior
ramp. So I just want to clarify again
inconsistencies between the Noticed --
MS. WICKHAM: Okay.
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MEMBER WEISMAN: -- the architectural
plans call for --
BOARD ASST.: Include everything that's
on that map. They'll have to come back again
(inaudible).
MS. WICKHAM: I just have to clarify that
the one-story extension is over a crawl space,
not a full foundation.
important.
BUILDING INSPECTOR:
Just in case that's
Just to keep in
mind, too, I'm not sure which of the two or
there's many entries to the building here, but
at least two of these would have to be exits
and one of the two would have to be
accessible. I think that's pretty much what
you said, Leslie.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: So I don't know, if
their intention is to make a ramp there and
it's because of the requirements through State
Code I would hope that they bring that to the
table right now and make a point because I'd
hate to see it go back again. I don't want it
to come to us six weeks later and we say, you
know what you now need access to that for
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egress requirements.
have their architect
MEMBER WEISMAN:
So they should probably
review that.
Take a look at it and --
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah.
MS. WICKHAM: I'll address that in my
letter, shall I?
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think two forms of
egress are required by State Code.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, the two forms
will be --
MEMBER WEISMAN: They have two on there.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's correct, but
as long as one of the two is accessible, which
it appears that it is, but they may need three
because of the number of people, but that's
something the architect should look at. Right
now, at a quick glance, it looks like it
should be okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it needs to be --
BOARD ASST.: We need something on the
plan with your letter.
and we need some --
MS. WICKHAM: Okay,
We do need it, please,
so we want to know
whether we need handicap access on the east
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
deck and whether we need two or three forms of
egress.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's two.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: The egress will be
part of what's required to be accessible as
well.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
BUILDING INSPECTOR:
Is that it?
I guess the biggest
thing is that the plan needs to reflect what's
actually there, to make it easy.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I just think --
yeah. Obviously because of the way this all
unfolded everyone is on the same page, we
simply want consistency with what's being
requested, what's, you know, what we need to
address in the variances and so on. So it's
time to kind of clean up the history of
miscommunication and get rid of that. You
know, so we can just go forward.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I ask a question?
You know, these maps or drawings, did you
submit them to the Building Inspector?
MS. WICKHAM: Which maps?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Like the ones we're
looking at right now.
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152
BOARD ASST.: Yes, that's what I took
from the Disapproval and he said that he
disapproved the March 25th amended map and
that's the one we have.
MS. WICKHAM: I think so. I didn't -- I
wasn't involved with the original part of this
process. I didn't get involved until the one-
story extension went up and Mike asked us to
address the ZBA on it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So your department has
seen these maps, but they're different? Is
that --
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Well, there's not
consistency.
MS. WICKHAM: There's a progression,
yeah.
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, there's not
consistency with what's there and what's on
paper. So it needs to be one consistent
drawing to match the site.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So the drawings don't
match what's at the site?
BUILDING INSPECTOR: Right now, no it
doesn't.
BOARD ASST.: We were just talking about
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
the other map when the hearing was first
started and the setbacks were shown to be
different from what the Disapproval had. It's
a different map, a different site map. So we
should be using the March 25th amended map,
correct?
MS. WICKHAM:
BOARD ASST.:
Yes.
Instead of the other one.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you find out
that there is any change in that, would you
please let us know?
MEMBER WEISMAN: And amend it.
MS. WICKHAM: I think I'll come down to
the ZBA and look at the map she has and go
back to the architect and make sure everything
is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are there any
questions from the Chief Building Inspector?
Anybody from the Board? Michael, thank you.
Is there anybody in the audience who
would like to speak for or against this
application?
Okay, to wrap it up, Ms. Wickham, we're
going to hear from you regarding the
inconsistency based upon the LWRP coordinator;
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
is that correct?
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
mitigate that.
MS. WICKHAM: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
going to give us?
How you' re going to
Is that correct?
What else are you
MS. WICKHAM: I'm going to give you a
statement that there's no covered walkway.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MS. WICKHAM: I'm going to give you the
distance of the revised proposed deck to the
west setback and I'm going to clarify the map
and the egress question on the handicap ramp.
BOARD ASST.: Was there something about
(inaudible) of the footage of the extension?
I wrote down here that --
MS. WICKHAM: The one-story extension?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, the deck you're
going to cut back the west deck.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes. I'm going to give you
the revised distance of the deck to the west
setback.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I'm going to
make a motion closing the hearing pending the
receipt of those documents from Ms. Wickham.
MEMBER SIMON: I'll second that.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6013 End
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
#6013 which is a hearing
adjourned and there's no
of the Road, LLC
We have hearing
that has been
need to read the
legal notice again. We will go to counsel.
MR. MOONEY: Good afternoon and thank
you.
As you may recall we were here on
December 20th and we presented arguments with
respect to requests for several variances.
Thereafter, we've been going through the
Planning Board process and as part of that
process the Planning Board requested further
comments from the Building Department and the
plans went over to the Building Department.
The Building Department sent an amended NoTice
of Disapproval asking that we apply to this
Board for several different variances and for
a modification of one variance we had
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
requested previously.
While we've been going through -- and I
believe you had comments from the Planning
Board that were sent this week and I also
believe you have copies of correspondence of
Kevin Beasley and Stephanie Revels, neighbors
to the southeast with respect to the erection
of a fence around their property because they
had previously sent a letter to this Board and
I corresponded with Ms. Revels and we entered
into an agreement on June 5th and I
memorialized that in a letter to the Board.
I believe you also may have a copy of the
SEQRA by Nelson, Pope and Voohees and if you
do not I can hand one of those up at present.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll check that in
one second, but we'll take a copy anyway.
BOARD ASST.: Do you know if they gave us
the final (inaudible) on it?
MR. MOONEY: They did not. They have no~
completed it because they're waiting
full response from the office of New
State Parks, Recreation and Historic
Preservation as to whether or not we
do
for the
York
have to
an archeological survey since it may be in
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
what is called a culturally sensitive area.
For that reason they don't have a final
determination on the SEQRA.
Over the past six months going back and
forth with the Planning Board, we have changed
the parking on the site plan {inaudible).
[Not at microphone.]
One north-south, one goes east-west on the
parkway parcel. This is the house (inaudible)
these three are land banked parking, this is
going to be a loading area so that all of the
parking will be here and (inaudible). This
parcel over here to the west, (inaudible)
parcel, it's R-zone. Ail of the parking will
be on this side. The crossover from these
parcels inaudible) east has been located back
further from the road at the request of the
Department of Transportation. There's going
to be a proviso that it will be right turn
only as you come in. The traffic flow and
cars will come around this way rather than
being here and the other crossover will be
here. This will be land-banked parking
(inaudible).
I can give you a copy of this (inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
so that you have it
MEMBER SIMON:
the R-407
MR. MOONEY:
(inaudible).
Is the entire parking in
No, part of the parking
that's here, part of the parking that's here
(inaudible) business. This is in the R-40.
MEMBER SIMON: Just the part that's not
connected to the buildings?
MR. MOONEY: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: And you are land banking
parking that is --
MR. MOONEY: Right here.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That was next to your
buffer.
MR. MOONEY: There is a full 25-foot
buffer around, all around the John's Road
parcel and a little bit to the west and the
east of course. The Planning Board asked us
to add two more parking spaces here.
(Inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO:
landscape plan?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Will there be a
I was just going to ask
that. We don't have any (inaudible). We're
going to need a current landscape plan.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MR. MOONEY: Which is not completed
because as we indicated on this plan SEQRA
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
that plan, Mr. Mooney?
MR. MOONEY: The date
6/23/08.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. MOONEY: It was
What's the date on
on this plan is
Thank you, sir.
submitted on Monday
to the Planning Board (inaudible).
If you notice from the -- I'll show you.
One of the variances that we've been requested
to receive is for a side yard variance. At
one time when we were here in December we
requested a side yard variance of 15 feet.
We're now (inaudible) so now we're asking for
a 17.4 foot side yard variance on the westerly
side of the parcel. The current building is
basically on the line for the new building.
The other building will be 15 feet from the --
17.4 feet from the side yard from the
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MOONEY: And with respect to ~he bank
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
building we were requested to ask for the
variance because it exceeds 60 feet in length
with the drive-thru. At one time we had the
drive-thru behind the bank and we moved it up
to the side of the bank. We were hoping to
move it up to front of the bank, but
aesthetically and also because the lighting
for the ATM machines would (inaudible) upon
the property to the southeast, so we moved it
up to the front. As a result of the plan we
went back to the Building Department
(inaudible) 85 foot frontage rather than 60
foot which is Code requirements without a
variance; however, if you will recall it the
Code was amended to provide for a 60-foot
(inaudible) at one time in order to stop strip
malls (inaudible) in the Town.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MOONEY: And this is just one
building, I don't believe it should make any
difference to getting a variance for the
drive-thru attached to the bank (inaudible)
parcel (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you just reopen
that what the size of the canopy is in
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
reference to the width of it?
MR. MOONEY: The size of the canopy is 25
feet by 32 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
MR. MOONEY: And that would be two lanes.'
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. MOONEY: (Inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Mooney, while we're
on the subject, am I reading the elevations
correctly that the building, the bank building
itself has a width, an elevation, a street
elevation of 55 feet?
MR. MOONEY: (Inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: The driveway. Okay, so
the building itself is actually 55 feet.
MR. MOONEY: That's (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright and the map it
certainly is broken down on there it does not
give a large overall monolithic effect at all.
I just want to say that the overall width of
85 linear feet is really broken down into two
elements. A 55 fooE long building and then
the rest is drive-thru and they're both
separately roofed and a very different
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
appearance than a monolithic affect.
MR. MOONEY: (Inaudible) an artistic
rendering and I'd say it's artistic, it's not
architectural (inaudible) building and then
drive-thru on the side.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I could tell from
the elevations anyway.
MR. MOONEY: The other request that we
have is for the front yard setback. The Code
is clearing (inaudible) one building on the
site with the average of the other buildings
on the properties in the area and setbacks;
however, when you have two buildings the Code
is a little different.
I took this plan, which is a radius map
as well. I marked on it side and front yard
setbacks of all of the surrounding buildings
and you can see that along the Main Road
directly across the street there's one that's
a 12-foot setback. One that's 38-foot, one
that's 42, one that's 30, one that's 30, and
then on (inaudible) 15 feet (inaudible) is 15
feet the other house is 66 feet and the office
building is 24 and the (inaudible) building is
33. Then on John's Road it's 39 and 30. So
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that we're making representation that the
(inaudible) front yard are much further back
than the any of the other buildings in the
area around this (inaudible) variance so that
we could construct the buildings as set forth
in the plans (inaudible) and ingress and
egress a little bit better.
One of the reasons we had to change the
plan originally was the /inaudible} did not
want the driveway where we had it, they wanted
us to move it (inaudible) for (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON:
BOARD ASST.:
for any reason?
(Inaudible).
Are we going to need that
MEMBER WEISMAN: For the DOT?
BOARD ASST.: No to show the other
setbacks (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: It should be part of the
documents.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's character of the
neighborhood.
BOARD ASST.: I don't
is part of the record yet,
MR. MOONEY: I gave you a
radius map (inaudible).
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BOARD ASST.: Is that what that is, the
radius map?
MR. MOONEY: It's the radius map, but I
just marked on it (inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
BOARD ASST.: So the setbacks are not on
this map? What did you conform this to?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't you give
us that one and then we'll (inaudible).
MR. MOONEY: Those are three of the
variances that we're requesting. The setback
front yard, the setback side yard, and the
parking variance in the R-40 zone. When we
were here in December we talked at length
about requesting the variance to put the
parking in the R-40 zone and I presented you
at that time with decisions of this Board over
the years where it has allowed parcels to use
residential parcels for parking. If you wish,
I can go through that again.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
MR. MOONEY: I would be very happy to
just continue with this. Ms. Gail Wickham
took a little longer than I'm going to take I
hope. Okay.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the
objective here is to know how much longer you
think you're going to need before you get the
Planning Board back and the DEC has to --
MR. MOONEY: In our last conversation we
had (inaudible) it is a possibility and she
thought maybe even a probability that by July
14th I would get Planning Board approval for
the project. If not, then I think it would be
the August meeting. A lot depends upon
hearing back from the office of New York State
Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation.
If they do not gain a waiver of the cultural
significance, which is artifacts, basically,
then we have to do an archeological review and
I've already contacted some of those people
and they're telling me four to five weeks to
get it done. So it may be August before we
get a decision.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My suggestion and
we can still take additional testimony, but my
suggestion to the Board is that we adjourn
this thing to the September meeting and that
would probably pretty much take care of
everything at that point and then we --
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ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, a couple of
things here -- Jim did you want to speak?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just was wondering
what we're waiting for, Gerry. I think
they're two separate entities and --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: There are a couple
of timing issues in that Planning Board needs
this Board's decision before they can make
theirs ---
MEMBER OLIVA:
say.
That's what I was going to
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- but also this
Board needs SEQRA decision from Planning so it
can make its, so we got a little cat and mouse
thing going on.
MR. MOONEY:
(inaudible) and
So we adjourn this
(inaudible)? I have
for
(inaudible) permits already, but
to take the buildings down until
I'm doing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, you want
it in July or do you want to go August?
I would go August.
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I think maybe --
you could close it if you're not waiting for
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I know what
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anything else other than a SEQRA
determination, you could close the hearing and
then if, in July, Planning issues the SEQRA
determination you can then just make your
decision --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY:
know I'm not telling you what
Okay.
-- and then -- you
kind of decision
you should make,
could work.
but that's the way that it
[TAPE CHANGE]
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
**********************************************
HEARING %6152 William and
Joanne Turnbull
[Not on recording.]
HEARING #6167 - Michael and Susan Jeffries
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
"Request for a Variance under Section
280-116A(1), based on the applicant's filing
of a building permit application and the
Building Inspector's April 30, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory
in-ground swimming pool and retaining wall at
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less than 100 feet from the top of the bluff
adjacent to Block Island Sound, near the
Easterly End of East End Road at Fishers
Island; CTM 1-2-11."
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're welcome.
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore representing
Mr. and Mrs. Jeffries.
I have Clancy Hammond with me who's the
landscape architect and I will defer t~ her a
great deal because I think many of the issues
she's designed and we've considered.
This, as you know the property is on
Fisher's Island. You may remember this
because I remember an inspection that you did
prior to the renovation or additions to the
house. So the house is nearly completed and
the property owners want to have -- add a
pool. So in trying to place the pool on this
property various factors were considered. One
was to keep an appropriate distance from the
freshwater wetlands which are down on the
northwest side of the property. We must
maintain a 100 feet in accordance with the
DEC, the covenants that were filed with
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respect to this renovation and addition. So
we are meeting that 100-foot setback.
The placement of the pool was also
considered -- we considered the bluff and the
topography of the property and at that point
I'm going to defer to Clancy Hammond and ask
Clancy to come up and we're going to talk
about certain aspects of this property that we
want to point out to you.
Clancy you want to --
MS. HAMMOND:
MRS. MOORE:
MS. HAMMOND:
you?
MRS. MOORE:
Sure.
You tell me what --
Can I bring these up to
Yeah, here I'll hand it up.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you just state
your name for the record, please?
MS. HAMMOND: Clancy Hammond, Hollander
Designs, New York, New York 10003.
This morning I spoke to Vic (inaudible)
our engineer for this project and got his
feedback on the placement of the pool in
relation to the existing bluff and if you look
on the sketch that Pat has handed you I
quickly sketched out the height of the bluff
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in this area, which is approximately 22 feet
from the beach to the height of the house, the
elevation of the house. Where the pool is
placed, the height of the bluff decreases to 2
feet and continually decreases as you go
further north almost to nothing, so that was a
very important thing for us in placing the
pool was that not only is it further away from
the bluff, but it's also -- the bluff is also
not as tall at this point; therefore
decreasing the weight on the bluff.
You have a question?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're resting.
MS. HAMMOND: Okay, we do have a
retaining wall and I believe that's
illustrated in the sections that we submitted
and that is holding the pool up on an
elevation that relates more closely to the
house. I think the retaining wall also
eliminates the potential for runoff into the
bluff. We can contain any, you know, pool
chemicals and garden chemicals that are washed
into, you know, the ground in drains and
drywells that are associated with the property
instead of it running into the natural bluff
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and the ocean.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I ask a question
about those retaining walls?
MS. HAMMOND: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The section shows one
end at 4-foot from grade to the top and the
other is 6-feet high.
MS. HAMMOND: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So that would be a 6-
foot high elevation and exposed brick
retaining wall and that will be facing the
water?
MS. HAMMOND: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I just want to
verify the elevational change.
MS. HAMMOND: And it would have plantings
all around the base.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The landscape plan
doesn't -- well, it shows the planting bed,
but that--
MS. HAMMOND: Right, well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- appears to be on the
interior.
MS. HAMMOND: It is, it is. You're right
and we would definitely have planting around
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the base of the wall as well, probably also
vines of ivy or some kind of vine growing up
on the face of the wall itself.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, because that's a
really high brick wall.
MS. HAMMOND: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It certainly works from
a drainage perspective, but aesthetically on
the water side it would be a 6-foot high brick
wall without any kind of softening.
MS. HAMMOND: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I didn't see anything on
your landscape plan and I
it.
MS. HAMMOND: Yes, I
wanted to ask about
apologize. You're
exactly right, but we would definitely be
planting, you know, pretty considerable
amounts at the base of that
The exact materials I'm not
MRS. MOORE: Thank you,
I would also point out
wall, I would say.
sure.
Clancy.
the photographs
that I gave you and photocopies of the
photographs as taken -- Clancy you took these?
Okay.
MS. HAMMOND: Mark Letieri took the
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construction.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, on Fisher's it was
taken from the beach so you could see the
stone, the boulders on the beach and the iow
bank that's there. Your point about what you
can see from the beach, actually very little
you can see because of the bank and the
vegetation, the natural vegetation that's
there. In fact, where they're standing there
on the beach all you really see is the tops of
the house. So it won't be visible, but it
does provide a gradation, a stable area for
the pool and then creates a flat surface. So
that would -- the intention behind that wall
and lawn area for the pool.
I think that cross-section that Clancy
prepared was very helpful because the
topography, the slopes there are not so
apparent when you're looking at the two-
dimensional plan before you, but the cross-
section really shows very quickly and easily
how the efforts made at placement of this pool
in an area where there really is no bank, per
se, it's a very stable, vegetated rocky
shoreline and again as you move towards the
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north and the west we can't be closer. It
flattens out, however, you've got freshwater
wetlands that come in from the roadside of the
property. So that is our limitation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where is the pool
going to be in respect to this (inaudible), do
we know?
MRS. MOORE:
MS. HAMMOND:
BOARD ASST.:
It is right in front --
(Inaudible) on this --
Can I mark it on here,
please, for the file?
MRS. MOORE: Sure,
it.
you go ahead and mark
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) cross-section.
We don't have a cross-section in the file.
MRS. MOORE: No, this one I gave them.
BOARD ASST.: That's not a cross-section
though, that's the site plan.
MRS. MOORE: No, the -- I'm sorry, the
site plan, this is the portion that as added
by Clancy which shows h~w the topography
translates into a
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
more.
(inaudible).
Thank you.
I believe there was one
The owners had in the original
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submission there was a pool deck that was I
think --
MS. HAMMOND: Varied from shallow to
deep, it's shown on this cross-section I think
from three feet to seven and a half feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, um-hmm.
MS. HAMMOND: We were hoping that we
could get your approval to adjust that deck to
a consistent five feet with a bench. I've
done a revised drawing illustrating that. I
have multiple copies here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it's going to be
more like a lap pool, then?
MS. HAMMOND: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MS. HAMMOND: Is more like a lounging
bench, more like a lap pool.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How big is the
pool?
MRS. MOORE: 32 by --
MEMBER WEISMAN: 32 or -- 32 foot
(inaudible) by (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: That doesn't make sense,
that's elevation. Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's alright.
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MRS. MOORE: It was in the application
but I don't think it was on the drawing.
Oh, here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While she's
measuring that, Ms. Moore, we have a minor
problem here and that is that we have not
received anything from LWRP, okay? So --
MRS. MOORE: Well, I would point out they
have thirty days to respond, but you know as
far as --
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) notified that
your top of the bluff lines do not match the
topographical elevation that (inaudible) error
in your map, so that's why LWRP is not able to
give an accurate recommendation. The Chairman
was going to inspect it with the Board in
August when they go to Fisher's Island for
their annual trip. You might want to contact
Mark Terry to see if his line was really off
or if yours was off. He has maps that you can
use to compare it with.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, so were you -- I guess
I'll have to check with Mark what line he's
using -- I'm using -- we're using the one that
is the surveyor's line.
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BOARD ASST.: Yeah, we don't have that,
sorry. He said he'd be glad to show it to
you.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
MS. HAMMOND:
28 feet long.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
this is a cement pool?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Moore?
I will look at it, okay.
Thank you.
The pool is 12 feet wide by
Thank you. And
What else, Ms.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that's it, I guess, for
now. We're waiting for LWRP and your
inspection so --
BOARD ASST.: They're waiting for a
corrected from you, so --
MRS. MOORE: Well, we're assuming he's
right and we're wrong; aren't we? So we'll
coordinate. I mean, I rely on surveyor
certification.
BOARD ASST.: I know.
MRS. MOORE: You know, that's --
BOARD ASST.: I didn't know what to say.
MRS. MOORE: Well, visual is a little
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tough. I think you have to follow the
surveyor's determination, but I'll talk to
Mark about that.
BOARD ASST.: Alright, good luck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what are we
doing with the hearing?
MRS. MOORE: I guess we have to leave it
open because I can't respond to the things
that aren't on the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
to August 21st.
So we'll adjourn it
MRS. MOORE: When are you going out in
August? When's your meeting?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sixth.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's right in the
beginning.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine. That's
not a problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I, unfortunately,
am not going to make it so you'll all look at
it?
MEMBER OLIVA:
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah, we will.
Is the whole Board going on
the Fisher's trip?
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MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
three members.
I am.
I am.
Not the whole Board but --
Oh, some of you. That's
At least two or
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's fine. I don't
know if I'll be there or not.
MS. HAMMOND: Do you have all the
documents that you need for now?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It certainly
appears so.
MS. HAMMOND: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you for your
help.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you, Clancy.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody in
the audience would like to speak on this
Fisher's Island application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
adjourning the public hearing to August 21.
MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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HEARING #6140 - Claire and Rob Roccio
MEMBER DINIZIO: "Requests for Variances
under Sections 280-15 and 280-116B, based on
the Building Inspector's amended February 6,
2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed
new construction. The reasons stated in the
disapproval of the building permit applicaticn
are: (1) the proposed new dwelling
construction will be less than 75 feet from
the bulkhead, (2) the proposed swimming pool
will be in a side yard instead of the code-
required rear yard; and (3) in addition, the
applicants request a variance under New York
Town Law, Section 280-a to determine the need
for base improvements and clearance within the
right-of-way easement giving access to this
property from Indian Neck Lane. Location of
Property: Private Right-of-Way extending from
the Southerly Side of Indian Neck Road (House
%6512), Peconic; CTM 98-6-1."
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore.
Yeah, I don't have a big enough podium so
what I'm going to do is hand out some
photographs to get them off of here so that --
What I'm handing up is from the water,
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the view from the water to the (inaudible)
bulkhead. So that's the first set of
pictures.
Other than the photographs I have
photographs of the original house and the
properties to the east and west from, again,
views from the water. These very good
photographs were taken by Mrs. Riccio. So I
can't take credit for these.
Yeah, the colored ones are very good.
Just to begin the thought process, Mr. and
Mrs. Riccio and Fred Weber who is the
architect and here, when they first came into
my office their original plan was to take the
existing house and they wanted to add a second
story to it. You can see from the photographs
from the water as well as the survey, the site
plan, that the existing house is very close to
the top of the bank and to the bulkhead. It
is also very close to the side property line
and any expansion of this house would either
be variances as -- variances from setbacks or
Walz. Either way you'd have variances that
would be required.
What Fred explained to me is that the
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house as it sits is a beautiful and it looks
wonderful, it's been maintained meticulously
by Mr. and Mrs. Riccio; however, this house
sits on locust posts and the only full
foundation with the utilities would be the
portion that was built at some point in time
on the east side of the property, which has
the nonconforming side yard setback.
So the reality was that the extent of
renovations here would require significant
variances from this Board. Given that and the
policies of LWRP and certainly the Board's
preference to seek conformity where we can
bring a property into conformity the thought
was, at that point, what if we demolish the
house and then propose moving it back into a
more conforming location.
The proposal was the demolition and the
relocation of the house was to place the house
certainly at a conforming side yard, both side
yards would be conforming. Front yard on the
road side would be conforming, but a
continuation of the nonconforming but much
better, a more consistent plan of placement of
the proposed house from the bulkhead. If you
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would look at the photograph that I gave you
to the east and to the west, the homes to the
east and to the west, they are all pretty much
developed the way this house was originally
developed and many of them have been expanded
and renovated over the years, but in place.
In the same location so it would be considered
an expansion of the nonconforming, the
nonconforming location for the top -- from the
bulkhead.
Given the line of homes along the water,
they were prepared to move the house back
some, but certainly to move it 75 feet from
the bulkhead would in the long run really push
the house towards the property to the rear,
the O'Dells and I see they're here today, so
that the thought was let's not try to -- let's
not eliminate their open space in a sense. It
benefitted the Riccio's certainly to have the
house somewhat in a reasonable setback to the
bulkhead. As you can see from the waterfront
photographs that there are two bulkheads here,
there is a full marine bulkhead at the beach,
there's a second full marine bulkhead that is
landward of the one on the beach and then
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there is a third retaining wall that is even
landward of that. So what we have is a
situation where there are multiple bulkheads.
It is completely secure. We're not dealing
with issues of the bank or any kind of erosion
issues. This bulkhead has been in place for
prior to '77 certainly and it's been
maintained and repaired and replaced I guess
along the way or -- certainly repaired at one
point or another. It's been a functional very
well condition bulkhead.
So that was the line of thinking that if
we were to push the house as the Code would
allow us and require us to place the house we
would actually be placing the house squarely
in the center of the property, pushing the
house back towards the O'Dells and that was in
an effort not to be a bad neighbor and also
certainly the plan as it's proposed was to
make it as conforming as we could to the Code
while respecting the properties to the rear.
With respect to the pool in the side
yard, again, it continued to open up the views
and the open space for the property to the
north, so it seemed logical that a pool in the
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side yard here would be the best location
because again it would keep that space, the
open spaces, unencumbered.
That was the line of thinking and we
hope, certainly, that you would agree with
that when you go out to see the property. It
would be nice to have everything just the way
it is, but to do so would require variances
from you anyway. So we're trying to really
improve the existing conditions.
The issue that came up, interestingly, is
the 280-a, which it was kind of the
development of an issue. Originally, we
weren't able to find in the computer the
creation of this lot and the approval of this
right-of-way and we all knew that it had been
done legally. It had to be in there and after
some very diligent efforts on everybody's
part, we did find the original Katzenberg
subdivision that this Board had approved back
in the '60s, I believe it was, and you have
that decision in your file and in that Zoning
Board variance and decision it actually
granted the right-of-way. It granted the
access to the -- to Indian Neck Road and
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originally we believed we needed 280-a because
at the time we hadn't found that decision and
that approval. I now -- I believe that 280-a
is not legally required here because the
Zoning Board in their decision actually did
deal with the issue and deal with the access,
but whether we're dealing with the 280-a
variance or not I saw, thanks to Linda, I saw
the recommendation or the comments that were
made by the Town Engineer.
I want to address those comments, but
also correct something that I guess a
presumption that he had. To begin with the
highway specifications are intended to address
and deal with subdivisions. So it is not an
issue of an existing right-of-way with an
existing access. It's not applicable when you
read the section of the highway law it's not
applicable to existing right-of-ways, but I
understand your rationale to ask the Town
Engineer for some guidance. He looked at the
section of the Code dealing with the number of
lots that are serviced by a road and I believe
he referred to the wrong number of lots
because there are only two houses that are
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
serviced by this elaborate driveway, this
right-of-way. It is the O'Dell's property and
it is my clients' property.
So when you look at the section of
roadway construction that is 161-15A,
specifically, it gives with respect to the
number of lots it tells you in certain zoning
districts and we are in the R-40 that the
right-of-way should be 25 feet. Again, if you
were creating a new roadway for a subdivision,
that would be applicable, but the road width
itself would be 12 feet and that's what we
have here. We have a 12-foot improved access
driveway and if you went down there to inspect
as I did, I was quite impressed with the
condition of this access road. It is level,
it is graded and all thanks to the Riccio's
who were the ones who have been maintaining
this driveway throughout the
that they've been the owners.
Also -- so issue one is
period of time
I don't believe
we need 280-a, but certainly any decision that
you make and I guess in the past when I've
dealt with improvements that on properties
that are served by a right-of-way, I know that
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you tend to put a condition in that you
obviously have to maintain the right-of-way
because the construction and so on you want to
make sure that it's restored to the condition
that it was in certainly prior to when it was
in good condition and that's not a problem.
That's certainly something that they would
want to keep as well. I do want to correct
the report by the Town Engineer that the
minimum width is not 16 feet, it is actually
12 in accordance with the Code. So --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just ask --
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Cause we discussed this
laying down blue stone and (inaudible) and
something over the top of that, then at the
end of it having a drywell --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and sloping it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's under the
new Town --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know. Again, does
that apply; do you think that that applies?
MRS. MOORE: No. The highway specs again
don't apply unless you're subdividing. So --
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: Now --
MRS. MOORE: Those are the specs. Now,
could you incorporate to a certain extent
certain parts that are reasonable to require
an owner to abide by?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MRS. MOORE: We,
Right.
in fact, the Zoning
Board that back in the '60s approved this
property put the condition that the road
should be maintained and improved and it was
actually the obligation from the language of
the decision was on the applicant, at the time
who was the O'Dell owner, Katzenberg, was the
house that they were living in and the
waterfront house was the one that they were
setting off and selling off. That condition
was placed in the decision early on and that's
how they've been maintaining it all along.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean his, Mr.
Richter's comments were that it's pretty good
space on there and --
MRS. MOORE: It is, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, I (inaudible)
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
you know, it seemed okay, but I
you could do -- maybe trim some
us out, you know,
MRS. MOORE:
problem. In fact,
didn't think
trees to help
wanted to see them, but they've received of
deliveries of (inaudible) and oil delivery and
contractor. I mean everybody and their mother
that has needed to be down there with trucks.
They've gotten down there without any problem
and certainly the canopy is not excessive. So
if it would require a little extra trimming,
not a problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, you know, I mean --
MRS. MOORE: It happens by -- I mean one
truck goes by and it trims everything already.
So --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean if you had a hook
and ladder truck,
down there now.
MRS. MOORE:
trimming.
(inaudible) to be able to go
We'd have no problem
MEMBER DINIZIO: You know, so I mean if
that wouldn't be a problem.
MRS. MOORE: It's not a problem.
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with fire.
That has never been a
they brought bills if you
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ZBA Town of Southo]d - June 26, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand the
drainage part, you know, I think that's pretty
-- people are concerned about that now in the
Town. So, I mean, I don't know if --
MRS. MOORE: Oh, wait because --
BOARD ASST.: Only one person has the
mike (inaudible) in the record.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He's where the
problem came in, okay?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Along about last
summer I made a determination on a right-of-
way off of Gin Lane. There was a question if
I had the competent ability to do so. So very
simply, I've been doing it
that doesn't mean anything.
simply now we have sent it
for 27 years, but
Okay. So very
to the Town
Engineer, okay? There is no doubt in my mind
that the base on this is fine because it's a
sand base. We didn't find any spongy loom, we
didn't find any faults on the property or
anything of that nature.
In my opinion there is no doubt that
somebody has been cutting it back, but the
base or the actual base as it exists today
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
there really hasn't been much done to it
because probably there didn't need to be much
done to it for the limited access that was
going over it on a seasonal basis for whatever
time Mrs. O'Dell has been using her
period of
property.
Okay, in all fairness, now is the time
something has to be done. These are the
minimum standards that the Town Engineer is
requiring, okay, and these are the minimum
standards that I am going to propose to the
Board. I do agree with you, Ms. Moore --
MRS. MOORE: That it's not applicable.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- that it should
read 12 feet and I do agree with the Town
Engineer that the -- that it's improved 12
feet. Okay, it's improved 12 feet. Okay.
When I say improved I'm referring to some sort
of surface as the Town Engineer has -- I have
had a discussion with him on this, he did
speak to me on this particular application and
the evaluation of this.
Secondly, we have no control over the new
Code and the new Code requires that water does
not run down that road across the street into,
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
and his concern is, into that area which is
the boat basin or the boat ramp, so to speak.
So there is no control. There is no contest.
There is no comment, there is no critique.
There is no anything other than the fact that
that's what he wants. Alright? So we go from
there and that's my proposal and I do agree
with you that it is not
it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
want to bring that out.
MRS. MOORE: That's
record, just so you know,
16 it is 12 and that's
So that's -- I just
fine. Just for the
the base was placed
by you as I recall. Why don't you put on the
record exactly what you did? If you're going
to talk you have to come here.
MR. RICCIO: When we first --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
the record.
MR. RICCIO: Robert Riccio.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MR. RICCIO: Fine. When we first
acquired the property the driveway was in a
little bit worse shape, especially where it
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
joins Indian Neck Lane and also where
meets our property. So we did have a
crushed stone and some additional
it just
layer of
reinforcements put in to level that out and to
make it more passable without ruts and bumps.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE:
at the road end,
MR. RICCIO:
MRS. MOORE:
I think you also put stone
at the road for drainage.
Both sides, yes.
Both sides there was stone
placed to absorb the water and the drainage.
So the existing conditions actually, as you
say, addressed those issues so --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I comment, again?
mean we're discussing this thing.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean
Richter's thing and I didn't
telling you had to do that.
that if you did this then it
runoff and you would want to
says, right now, as I understand the report,
he doesn't see any runoff on the existing
driveway.
MRS. MOORE:
I read Mr.
feel that he was
He was saying
would cause
catch it. He
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
know how you plan as a Board, five of you,
would choose to incorporate and make it as a
condition because to the extent that
improvements are made we have this to guide us
on how to do it, but the road right now is in
very good condition and we do have drainage on
both ends and actually any construction of the
house would take all drainage and do zero
runoff beyond the property line.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean do we have that
now? Does it runoff of the driveway to the
road and across the street?
MRS. MOORE: No. That was captured by
the sump, but not this method. He talks about
drywells.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm talking about the
existing.
MRS. MOORE: The existing is done with
stone. It's almost a base of stone that
creates a, like a French drain effect --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- at the entrance of both
ends of the roadway. So, yes, it does capture
that. I'm just saying that he's suggesting a
drywell, which is a different method of
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
digging a hole with a sanitary ring to pipe
it. They've done it a different way, which is
with the stone. So they would continue, I
mean as a condition of approval would be to
continue to maintain the road, you know, so it
does not create runoff issues and it's
passable.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question at this
point.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: When you read Mr.
Richter's letter with your point about the
Code does not require 16 foot --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: -- what is unclear, deeply
ambiguous, is whether he is recommending 16
feet because that is what the law requires or
whether he thinks that 16 feet would be a good
idea and whether he has or we have the power
to require 16 feet, even though it is not
required under the subdivision law.
MRS. MOORE: It's required in the
subdivision, but not as an applicant to a
building permit.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER SIMON:
building permit.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
Not as an applicant to a
Right.
So in other words if --
one argument you could make is, and you
haven't actually said this I wonder if this is
what you want to do, is to say because Mr.
Richter is mistaken about the requirement of
the 16 feet whether his letter is of no
account or whatever on that particular or
whether you feel you can or need to address
the 16-foot issue even if he hadn't mentioned
it and whether Gerry has good grounds for
raising this as a question as a policy matter
and something within the discretion of this
Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Had I not spoken to
him, Michael, okay, the letter would stand for
itself.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
record, I'll
want. Okay.
I will go on the
put my hand on the Bible, if you
He specifically said 12 feet for
two lots. He didn't know if another lot was
going to be created in the future or not.
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Okay, he said at that particular point --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- it would then go
to 16 feet.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am telling you as
I sit before you, when this goes to the Town
Engineer there is no contest about this drain.
He is concerned about the hill that goes up,
okay, as you approach the property where the
signs are and he wants a drain there. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Which we on the record will
tell you we have drainage there at the
entrance because he didn't know that because
he doesn't know what was put under the --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Then (inaudible)
him and tell him that. Okay? Cause I have no
other choice --
MRS. MOORE: But understand that his
letter, his recommendation, is quite frankly
not applicable in this instance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It isn't?
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's -- legally my
opinion is it's not applicable, but could you
incorporate some of the recommendations within
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
your thinking of a variance, I don't doubt
that you are entitled to consider issues.
MEMBER SIMON: We can follow the content,
but not --
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MEMBER SIMON: -- the legal authority.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: We are free to do so.
MRS. MOORE: Yes and --
MEMBER SIMON:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
16 feet.
Okay.
We don't have to make it
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, 12.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the Code says 12, in
fact.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but I think his
letter says -- he states it's gotta be 16
feet. You have to have 16 feet all around and
you have to have this drain and --
MRS. MOORE: That's clearly inaccurate.
BOARD ASST.: He's reading different
specs that are in the
MEMBER DINIZIO:
BOARD ASST.:
MRS. MOORE:
Code --
Right.
-- regarding subdivision --
Right.
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MEMBER DINIZIO: And then his letter
basically says just that, that this is a
suggestion.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly. He's using it
purely as a referral. Like you do have
referrals to Soil and Water, you're not bound
by their recommendation, you can incorporate
whatever recommendations you feel in
balancing, you know,
fairness.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
the interests and
What I'm trying to do at
this point is just to establish that if
there's a problem that needs to be addressed,
let's address that.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, but let's not
create a problem as Mr. Richter said will be
created if we do it his way. Okay? I mean he
said, you know, if you lay all this stuff down
then you're going to need a drain at the end
to collect it.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, that's an interesting
point. I didn't read it that way. Yes, if
you go and put the course in that he's
recommending, now you've got to put a huge
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
drain to capture the water that you --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. MOORE: -- created by these
improvements.
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's right.
his
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
letter.
MRS. MOORE:
So that you're kind of in a
That's what he says in
Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay?
MRS. MOORE: You read it more technically
than I did. Okay. I was looking and going
where's he coming up with these things and I
went to the Code and found that, again, it
wasn't applicable.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean want to have on
the record that, you know, perhaps with Mr.
Richter's suggestions would do more harm than
they do good. I mean we can make this
perfectly passable two-lot driveway and still
not have to worry too much about water going
across the street.
MRS. MOORE: Correct.
And if you put that condition, we won't
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
create water runoff onto the street. It'll be
our problem to correct it. You're not telling
us how to, we just can't do it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Well, could you
suggest to us how you -- what exists there now
and I'm talking about what's there now --
MRS. MOORE: We can give you in writing -
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can you do that? Tell
us where the drains are and --
MRS. MOORE: Well, it's not physical
drains. It's stone blend. It's a trench.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I know. Yeah, I
kROW.
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I didn't really notice
anything. If you could just point that out to
us on our survey or something?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a little high over
here.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, that's not a problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Did you lay anything
down or has that always been the way? Is
there a base on there that exists?
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MR. RICCIO: the only thing that was
necessary because there is no drainage problem
at all on any portion of the driveway after
torrential rains it goes right into the
ground, where the driveway meets the street
that was the only spot and it wasn't even a
drainage issue. It was a pothole issue that
basically you had ruts in
just to make it smooth so
from the sand driveway to
the road there. So
that you transition
the road was smooth
we put in a bunch of crushed stone at that
area to basically transition from one to the
other. Water drains right through it, there
is still no puddling, never been and hopefully
never will be.
MEMBER WEISMAN: May I comment?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's two things here
that I think Jim accurately points out that to
follow the letter from Mr. Richter is to
create potential additional cost and problems.
If, as Gerry said when he spoke to him, he was
unaware there were only two lots down there,
but maybe a third was going to be created,
then 12 -- we can get the letter changed.
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Okay, we can get that corrected, that's one
thing to think about. I think we're on the
other issues, while we're on that particular
part of this application has to do with the
impact that's substantial, demolition and
construction will have on that appropriately
scaled right-of-way, but nevertheless even
though -- and one doesn't want to put a
highway into a small lovely wooded piece of
property. It damages the total ambiance for
everybody, for both the O'Dells and the
Riccios and you don't want to create more
drainage problems. If you don't have any, why
would you create, but there is an impact with
major construction that will take place all
along that right-of-way and certainly during
construction there will also be a major impact
on the quality of life of all the neighbors
because acoustically, you know, this is
contained. It's very small once it comes out.
I mean it's big enough for equipment, plenty
big enough for equipment once you get it
there, but that right-of-way goes right very
close right past an existing neighbor
residence. So could you please address some
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
of those issues?
MRS. MOORE: Well, to begin with you're
not going to hamper the construction or the
improvement to a house because you don't want
to disturb your neighbor. We could, I mean,
ideally this project will occur mostly through
the winter months. They're using the house
right now and the timeline of this project is
winter. These houses -- we can do the best we
can to make our hours of construction
reasonable. I think most contractors if
you're working in the winter daylight hours
are limited anyway. So I think realistically
when you're dealing with construction schedule
as far as the road being passable for everyone
and the restoration of the road, that's
something that we would have an obligation to
maintain. We wouldn't want to create a
deterioration of the road through the --
during the construction that isn't addressed
through some filling of potholes as they are
created, but the way you phrased it it seems
to be a veto power that if a neighbor would be
offended by the noise of construction that is
offensive to the owner who wants to fix their
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
home. I think realistically we're talking
about a timeframe that is wintertime when most
people are -- the house is kind of sealed up.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me just clarify. I
wasn't suggesting any veto power. People have
the property rights to build {inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Okay, good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was simply addressing
concerns that I think people would justifiably
have. Anyone in that situation --
MRS. MOORE: If anybody lives -- were
building next to my house, I would have to
deal with the reality that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I've had to deal with it
myself.
MRS. MOORE: -- highway improvements at
the office and you know that's what happens.
I don't know if there are suggestions you can
make, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I was asking you because
I know it is a concern and I want the record
to reflect some recognition of good neighborly
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely and I'm sorry,
let me just --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and the
responsibility for the maintenance which we
could condition.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, the road maintenance
aside, I think that right from the beginning
the project was trying to respect what is a
non-waterfront house injuring views through
the property and to the extent we have tried
to position the house as close to the easterly
side as is possible while conforming to the
setbacks, now if the Board wants to grant the
variances since we've already got an existing
side yard, nobody's objecting to increase it,
but I think making this project conforming in
all respects would put it essentially in the
yard of the O'Dells.
MEMBER SIMON: Great. I want to get back
to the narrow issue. I mean this is spreading
out to other considerations --
MRS. MOORE: I don't know, which issue is
that?
MEMBER SIMON: The narrow question is
this and maybe the O'Dells can answer this, it
seems not clear to me, maybe I just need to
have it explained to me, are the problems
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
associated with the narrow road which exists
in some form only associated with the problems
about actually building the house or are -- or
do they go beyond that?
MRS. MOORE:
this --
MEMBER SIMON:
that their argument
Yeah, well I would say that
No, what I'm saying is
is --
MRS. MOORE:
something that's
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER SIMON:
But you're presuming
incorrect.
-- based primarily --
I'm sorry.
What I'm saying is it
would be important for me and helpful to me to
know whether this objection however compelling
is a matter of the transition while this is
being done or is it having to do with life
beyond the completion of the construction?
MRS. MOORE: Well, let me back up. Your
statement presumes something I think is
inaccurate.
12 feet, which is the area that is
actually improved, and we could expand it, but
no one wants to take down trees and we want to
keep it pastoral and low impact. You don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
measure it
exact same
okay?
want a superhighway for two homes. We
presently conform to presumably these highway
specifications for two homes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Absolutely not.
Absolutely not. You have no -- you have not
taken the center out of it, number one.
MRS. MOORE: I'm talking width. Width.
He's saying a 12-foot road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm telling you
it's not 12 feet as we sit here, okay, it's
less than that. I took a very small car down
there. That's number one. I'll go down and
tomorrow and tell you what the
width in four different locations,
MRS. MOORE: Well, if you want us to make
it 12 feet, we -- that's not a problem. Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I want you to
improve it 12 feet. It's not improved. It is
a virgin road. It has never been improved
except for the base of the road as you come up
from the public road and I need you to stop
saying at this hearing that that road is
improved.
MRS. MOORE: I took that --
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That road has never
been improved since the day it was put in. It
is a road tract, okay, of
down a road with a center
is the reason why he says
two wheels going
grass median. That
in his --
MRS. MOORE: That's not the road I went
down.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One,
fourth paragraph. Mrs. O'Dell,
this issue up, please? And I
here and listen to that.
two, three,
could we clear
will not sit
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I went down that
road in a non-four wheel drive vehicle and it
was nice, flat, straight and I'm used to going
to construction sites. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That has no bearing
on that. It does not have any improvement on
it.
MRS.
MOORE: Okay, well you're now
opening it up to comment, but -- okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no other
choice. You keep on saying it is an improved
road. It is not an improved road.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. Mrs. O'Dell's
letter said in her statement that it was a 12-
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
foot road. I assumed she knew the width of
her road. So I'm assuming that her statement
was accurate that it was a 12-foot road. I
apologize if I don't -- I did not take a tape
measure. I relied on her letter that she
stated it was a 12-foot road. If you want it
to be a 12-foot road, we can make it a 12-foot
road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's gotta be
cleared 16 feet
improved.
MRS. MOORE:
and it's gotta be 12-foot wide
That's up to the Board.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a driveway.
MRS. MOORE: It's a driveway. It'll be
up to the Board how much -- remember we have
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to
concentrate on the house.
MRS.
MOORE: Okay, well we can go past
it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
issue and now go back to
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
25
(Inaudible) this
the house, okay?
We have just spent
minutes on the right-of-way, we've gotten
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
nowhere.
MRS. MOORE:
questions.
I thought I was addressing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It will be up to
the terms and conditions of what the Board,
under a democratic vote of three people, say
this right-of-way has to be.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON: You did ask her to speak.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I did ask her to
speak.
Mrs. O'Dell is speaking. State your name
for the record, please.
MS. O'DELL: My name is Sue O'Dell.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MS. O'DELL: Hello. Good afternoon. The
only access to their road -- I mean -- I'm
really upset. The only access to the
applicant's property is over my property and
you have a line showing that, which runs from
Indian Neck south over four acres to their
half-acre property. The deeded access
specifically notes over the existing dirt
road. This is at places 12 feet.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, at places.
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
There's no question about it. It meanders.
MS. O'DELL: It is a narrow, winding dirt
road. It is approximately 1220 feet long.
It's bordered by untouched woods. That's that
white strip there, nothing has been touched,
and does this road meet the Fire Codes?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Absolutely not.
MS. O'DELL: Okay, that's all I -- and I
am confused about work that they say that they
have done because it's my road.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Wait, we're going
to leave it at that. I don't know what to say
about it.
MS. O'DELL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very
much.
MEMBER SIMON: She did answer my question
that I asked before. Is the concern only for
what happens while the house is being built or
thereafter?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael it has to
meet minimum specifications 24/7 from the day
of the point of the CO on this house.
MEMBER SIMON: Right, right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So, therefore, what
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
you end up doing is beating up the road if
it's so beaten based upon bringing heavy
equipment in. It probably would better the
base so to speak, and then you complete the
process that the Town Engineer is requiring
prior to the issuance of the CO.
MEMBER SIMON: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and that's
basically the situation.
MEMBER SIMON: That's the answer to my
question.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And it has to be
continuously maintained.
BOARD ASST.: Just to mention there are
no CO's of record for the house that's there
now.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking about
the new house.
BOARD ASST.:
house, there are
preexisting.
MRS. MOORE:
Yeah, but the existing
no CO, so it's not
I'd have to go back and
look. I mean it's a pre -- it's actually you
have a subdivision that occurred through
Zoning Board and the house is there.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
BOARD ASST.: He was talking CO, so --
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Okay. A new CO is
what I think he was saying.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm talking about a
new CO.
BOARD ASST.: There's no old CO.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, a new CO.
MRS. MOORE: A new CO on the new house.
Okay, it seems kind of silly to get a pre-CO
for the house you're demolishing.
BOARD ASST.: No, I didn't mean that. I
meant that there's been no inspection under
the Fire Codes, under the pre-CO status.
Nothing was done on the Town level for that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there
anybody on the Board that wants to discuss the
house, the new house?
MRS. MOORE: Well,
the road?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I
road twenty minutes ago.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry.
questions, what do you want
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
done with the road.
are you all done with
was done with the
I was answering
from me?
I'm not really
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
MRS. MOORE: Okay, it's up to you. I
don't want to be yelled at when I keep talking
about the road.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I keep saying to myself
that it's not a road and why do we keep
calling it that and I would like from you,
Pat, if you could, something that convinces me
that it's not a road. I mean could you submit
to the Board some information, I know you gave
us where it is and the Code and all of that, I
understand that, but could you just kind of
put that in a letter for me to understand?
MRS. MOORE: That's fine.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Because, again, I did
read Mr. Richter's thing and I'm not getting
the same thing that Gerry's getting out of it.
Okay.
MRS. MOORE: I'd be happy to give it to
you in writing, but --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: -- briefly it's a common
driveway. It is subject -- it is a right-of-
way. I will go back that Mrs. O'Dell when she
purchased her property bought subject to this
right-of-way that it is an access for
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
ingress/egress and if the Board as a Board
decides we must expand it from what it is
presently for whatever reasons, we would have
to do that and Mrs. O'Dell will get a larger
driveway, larger road, but they have the house
on the market right now and what you're doing
is you're benefiting the potential buyer for a
new driveway a new roadway.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, that's not
something -- that's not my concern.
MRS. MOORE: No, but I mean that's the
reality of what's going to happen here.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, it does require at
least something that fire trucks could get
down and --
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely, we can cut it or
improve it to whatever extent is reasonable.
Keep in mind reasonableness, because again
there is no 280-a issue here in deference to
Mr. Goehringer, I know you are concerned about
fire emergency access, and we can certainly
make sure that we have adequate base and
adequate canopy clearance for emergency access
and what that entails is we can just take one
big truck and determine that. It may not
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
require the degree of the improvements that
the highway -- that the Town Engineer has
218
recommended.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that is the
reason we have three votes (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Okay, so now are we -- do
you want something more than that?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I want to be sure that
we're calling this a driveway and not a road.
How about that? Just don't -- I don't want to
hear road anymore.
MRS. MOORE: It's a right-of-way.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: It's a right-of-way, common
driveway and there are only two lots and they
are two common driveways.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, cause I gotta
write this decision, obviously, it's going to
be sometime before I get to do that, but --
MRS. MOORE: Well, good luck.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. With the
setbacks.
MRS. MOORE: With the house --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I understand
there's a house there on locust posts.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No foundation at all?
MRS. MOORE: No, there is -- now I'm
going to defer to the architect to give us the
existing conditions.
MR. WEBER: Hi, I'm Fred Weber. The
house does have some concrete block walls. It
has a small mechanical room cellar in the -- I
guess it would be the east side of the house
and it has a series of crawl spaces that are
more or less inaccessible, but it does have
concrete block foundation walls in various
stages of repair or disrepair or whatever.
It's one of those houses that's been added
onto and you're not sure all that's there and
it's difficult to get access to it cause it's
a very tight kind of like belly crawl space.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so you're
proposal would be as far as the foundation?
MR. WEBER: Well, originally, just so you
know, my original proposal was to save the
house and put a second floor on and that's
what we were originally moving toward. We had
a few builders come and actually look at the
crawl space house and they were kind of saying
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
to me are you sure you want to do this?
There's not going to be that much left here?
So based on that we kind of talked it all
around, we got Par Moore involved and kind of
came to a decision that it probably didn't
make as much sense as I originally thought to
renovate the house that was there. Now, in
terms of moving back,
back, I mean, we will
existing foundation.
if we're going to move
demolish back for the
We're going back another
25 feet or so from where the house is now. So
we would be pouring a new poured concrete
foundation and putting, you know, a correct
foundation in.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So that's your intention
now?
MR. WEBER: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you're not really --
there's not much foundation you're going to be
filling in.
MR. WEBER: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: On the old house there's
really not much of a --
MR. WEBER: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's really not much of
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
burden for you to do that.
MRS. MOORE: There's a lot of decking and
MR. WEBER: Yeah, the decking is
literally right at the edge of the bank right
now. Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: On the bank.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly.
MR. WEBER: Right and we're moving back
from that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're going to improve
upon that setback?
MR. WEBER: Yes.
MEMBER OLIVA: How much?
MRS. MOORE: The whole thing, we are
right at the top of the bank. So from the top
of the bank we're 30, but that is 50-some feet
from the bulkhead.
MEMBER OLIVA: No, I mean --
MR. WEBER: From the top of the bank is
about 25 feet.
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, 25 from the --
MRS. MOORE:
MR. WEBER:
the bank. Yeah,
Wait, existing is 25 feet?
No. The existing is right at
the existing deck is right at
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the bank.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, you're going back
25 feet.
MR. WEBER: We're going back 25 feet from
the top of the bank.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you still need a
variance --
MR. WEBER: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- but you're improving
that variance quite a bit.
MR. WEBER: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I think that's all I
have. The thing on the side yard is pretty --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Unless I'm reading this
incorrectly, the Notice of Disapproval, which
was amended on June 17, 2008, stipulates that
the proposed construction notes a proposed
setback of 50 feet from the bulkhead at it's
closest point.
MRS. MOORE: Right, exactly.
MR. WEBER: That's correct. We're
talking about the top of bank.
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the deck.
Right.
Where the house
is not
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MEMBER DINIZIO: At the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Not the deck.
MR. WEBER: Let me just clarify, the 50
feet that's talked about in the variance is
from the bulkhead.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
MR. WEBER: And the bulkhead is about 25
feet down the bank.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I think one of
the, I guess, important points here is there
is no doubt that this is going to, given it's
current placement, which is an attempt to make
things more conforming, which is I think very
admirable, it's much better to actually demo
and do it right from the beginning than to
wind up with all the kinds of problems that
you will entail in construction and have to be
back before us with a stop work order and all
of that. So I appreciate that approach.
There is no question that the size of
this house is substantial and you're bringing
it back in more conformity to the bulkhead and
giving it a conforming side yard. You will
have a substantial impact on the other
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
residents. This is not debatable, that's just
what's going to happen.
MRS. MOORE: A substantial improvement to
the easterly property, is that what you're
saying?
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I'm simply saying
there'll be substantially greater impact on
the neighbor -- on the O'Dells.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, O'Dell. Okay, I'm
sorry.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There are other two-
story houses that are in existence along
there. It's not completely out of scale with
the existing neighborhood by any means. So we
have to be open-minded and fair all the way
around in examining this very site specific
application.
What I'd actually like to hear, again
with respect to all that you're attempting to
accomplish here, is the strategy in terms of
and also in part preserving some view to the
water from the O'Dell property, I'd actually
like to hear from Mrs. O'Dell and others in
the audience about any comments or concerns
that they might have about this particular
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
application because then we would be in a
better position, I think, to assess the
totality of the issues. I mean, I read it
from the plan perspective not as a resident of
the neighborhood. So unless the other Board
members have any questions they'd like to ask
now, I would reserve any other questions until
I heard from any other parties concerned.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm willing to defer my
questions until after the (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to address this
letter from Mrs. O'Dell.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'd like to
address the letter to the Board.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's my application so
I'm trying to do a thorough as I can, but it
says, your letter says in (1) does the narrow
drive meet the Fire Code for egress and
ingress? Right, you're asking that question?
MRS. O'DELL: I did ask.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and you're saying,
Mrs. Moore?
MRS. MOORE: I'm saying that if we refer
to the roadway construction standards on
clearance, assuming we could keep the
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
clearance of 12 feet consistently throughout,
which may mean taking down some trees, which
Mrs. O'Dell would prefer we not do, but if we
had to clear a path to make it absolutely
clear 12 feet of width, we would meet the
standards given that it's in the Code for a
two-lot access, whether it's an access as a
right-of-way or a road. The width would be
accurate.
The road construction I think is the
issue of whether this is a road or a driveway.
I think that the Code deals with the base for
a road, rather than the base for a right-of-
way. Right-of-ways typically are treated more
as a private driveway would be and I think
that's the difference.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
preference be?
Okay.
What would your
MRS. O'DELL: Well, I don't really
understand. This is my path driveway and is
it necessary for me to change that or cut down
any trees? We're talking about my property.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I answer that?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What has to be
done, Mrs. O'Dell, is this, under the -- I
don't know if you have a copy of the Town
Engineer's letter. If you don't, we can
afford you a copy of that.
MRS. O'DELL: I do not.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only dispute in
that letter that I have is that in reality
it's for 12 feet not 16 feet because there are
two pieces of property. Your large piece of
property and the other and the only other
dispute that I have at this hearing is that
whomever writes whatever they want to write
that's their interpretation, but I will tell
you the minute you snick the second house in
and it's been there for a long time, none of
those -- I don't know if your house has a CO
but this house in front doesn't have a CO.
Alright, so no one has ever looked at this
right-of-way for the point of improvement. It
is not a driveway. It is a full-blown road
because there are more than one house on it.
MRS. O'DELL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So therefore in my
opinion it is a road. It has ~o meet New York
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Town Law 280-a standards. We went to the Town
Engineer for those standards and he is
requesting that the center grass median be
taken out and removed totally from the
property so that it not be that trash be
placed any other place on your property, even
though you have fee title to underneath that
road and that it be replaced with two inches
of stone blend for the length of the entire
piece of property and the only other thing
that's been in dispute has been the issue of a
drywell approximately 15 feet from the edge of
the road so that the water runoff as you make
that approach does not go across the street
and down to the boat ramp area. Okay, that is
his evaluation on the drain. That is not my
evaluation nor is any of this my
interpretation. That is the reason why I went
to the Town Engineer.
What you will have then is a driveway,
which will meet New York Town Law 280-a
specifications 24/7 for the purpose 12 months
of the year so that fire apparatus and
emergency vehicles can go down that road go to
these people's very beautiful new house and
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
your house,
Okay and that's my opinion on
situation.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the next question?
which is very beautiful also.
the whole
Do you want
to go into
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MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. O'DELL:
MEMBER SIMON:
Tell us your preference.
Excuse me?
What is your preference?
MS. O'DELL: My next concern is that this
application is seeking relief from the wetland
setback requirement. The law from which the
relief is sought is designed specifically to
protect the bluff, the water, and the marine
environment. If this variance is granted it
will compromise the fragile coastline we're
trying to protect. Conversely, if the
variance is not granted and the applicant is
rightfully made to build within the required
setback as the plan is now 100 feet it would
then require them, as we had already
mentioned, to seek another variance for a back
yard setback requirement and whom should they
be closer to? Should they be closer to the
fragile coastline or directly in front of my
house without a foot to spare?
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
MRS. O'DELL: My preference is, you know,
not to have -- I don't want either one of
those things to happen.
MEMBER SIMON:
none of the above.
MRS. O'DELL:
MEMBER SIMON:
So you're going to say
Right.
Well, it doesn't sound as
though you're going to say to hell with the
coastline or you're about to say to hell with
the closeness to my house, given that --
MRS. O'DELL: No, I am saying there is a
fragile coastline. That is --
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, you --
MRS. O'DELL: But what is the decision
that you make? I mean you have the choice
too, because they are not meeting the
requirements at either place then. If they
choose one, then they're not meeting the
requirement at one place. If they choose the
other --
MEMBER SIMON: I think that you say,
very, very seriously, I'm not being sarcastic,
and I think we have to figure out what we can
do, what can we best do. There are only some
things that are in our jurisdiction, namely
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
(inaudible) variances applied. We could not
simply say they can't build at all, whether
anybody wants that or not. There are some
other things that would be in their option to
be where -- but they're going to need a
variance of some sort unless they keep things
exactly the way they are and they are not
legally required to do that. So somebody's ox
is going to be gored it looks like. Whether
it's the environment or whether it's you as
the neighbor and we would like to have some
guidance from some neighbor as to which ox
should we allow to be gored.
MS. O'DELL: Well, they just mentioned
that my property was for sale and that
happened when I heard what was going on.
MEMBER SIMON: Right and you're
interested in -- one can speculate about that
and obviously you have a reason, but arguably
if there is a fire access problem having a
wider road for example might improve the value
of your house for all we know.
MRS. O'DELL:
property.
MEMBER SIMON:
It's a wooded piece of
I know we're looking for
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guidance. I have not expressed any preference
one way or the other cause I'm not sure what
it is. I just want guidance and information.
It's hard, I know it's very hard. It's hard
for us too.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a legal mandate
through the LWRP to interpret as best we can
the variance that will be least destructive of
the bluff. That is written into law for us to
interpret. One of the other considerations we
have, of course, is character of the
neighborhood, which has to do with impact on
the neighbors. So the work of the Board is to
grant variances based on the smallest variance
that is reasonable to grant and balance the
quality of the community with the wealth of
the property. That's essentially in a
nutshell our jobs.
In order to protect the health and
welfare of the community and the property
owners, a 12-foot wide width is what is
required. It's almost what you have. How
that is achieved can be done in a way that
continues to preserve, as well as possible,
the aesthetic quality of your wooded quiet
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
driveway or right-of-way. I don't think that
that in and of itself is of primary concern.
The greater concern, I think, is a large house
that's going to be closer to your house that's
going to block views which we're not by law
able to protect, by the
MRS. O'DELL: Yeah,
MEMBER WEISMAN: I
the record to show that
way.
I understand that.
know, but I just want
we do understand that
and that if you two were reversed you would be
concerned about a big change in the quality of
your environment, which you've enjoyed for
many, many years in (inaudible).
Change is inevitable and it happens, the
challenge is to try to create change that is
as responsible to the environment and to the
character of the North Fork that we all love
and enjoy as possible. So that's what we have
to adjudicate and we will listen to your
concerns, we will listen to the presentation
by the applicant and what they're intending to
do and it's a tough decision, but your ~pinion
is very important to us as would be anybody
else's any time there is a direct impact by
what the proposal is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
I think what they're trying to do is to
propose greater conformity. Now they're also
proposing they're within their right to create
a large house. They're not over lot coverage.
MRS. O'DELL: I have a question about
that. I understood that they were seeking to
develop more than the
allowed waterfront lot
coverage.
MRS. MOORE: No.
MRS. O'DELL: Now, this is already a
nonconforming lot.
MRS. MOORE:
No, in fact, when we did the
calculations we're under the 20 percent.
We're permitted by law 20 percent lot
coverage. If anything, the Code changed so
that we actually have to take out away area of
our lot which we had to use a more
conservative size lot. So our property may be
all the way down to the first bulkhead, but it
gets cut off at a certain point. So what we
MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me, is she talking
about lot coverage?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, she's talking lot
coverage.
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ZBA Town of Southold
June 26, 2008
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Percentage lot coverage.
approach the Board with --
MRS. MOORE: Sorry, the lot coverage is
under 20 percent. We specifically kept the
addition under with the pool included. The
pool unfortunately the way the Code reads is
end to end of the pool, so even though it has
no roof or anything, it's a flat area that you
can see through we actually are deducting the
square footage of the pool as well. So all in
all everything here is under 20 percent and
that is within the Code.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What they are in need of
a variance for is the pool in a side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: They are proposing it in
the side yard for two reasons. One is because
they then will have a view of the water from
their pool and most people want that. The
other is because if they put it in behind
their house, in other words landward, it would
be essentially in view of their accessory
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that's not a --
You need to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
garage and their attached garage and their
parking area and your property. It would have
a greater impact actually of activity in an
area that's close to your property.
MEMBER SIMON: I have --
MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you know,
that's another choice. We can basically say
you have an alternative beside the side yard
location. Perhaps that would be something
that you'd want to address.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a question to help
you help us or help us help you. It's
certainly not for us to decide what is in your
best interest as a neighbor, that's basically
why you -- that's the reason you're here, so I
wonder if the applicant has said more than
once, I think it's in writing, that certain
options have been disregarded because they are
less protective of your interests and I want
to know your response to that.
MRS. O'DELL: Well, I haven't known
anything about this until the sign was posted.
MEMBER SIMON:
application.
MRS. O'DELL:
It's part of the
So this is pretty new to
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
me. It's what, two weeks or less than two
weeks. So I --
MEMBER SIMON: Well, the question is and
I would invite Pat to respond to it.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Is --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the first
response is we should have them stake the
house.
MRS. MOORE: It is already, it's done.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I've been down
there and I didn't see it.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's staked?
MRS. MOORE: It was done last Friday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Have you seen the
stakes, Mrs. O'Dell?
MRS. O'DELL: No, I haven't gone over
there.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MRS. MOORE: We'll double check that
they're still there, but they were there -- my
client actually -- Did you see them -- oh
good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If they are there
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
then you need to go down and look at them.
MRS. O'DELL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Simon has said --
MRS. MOORE: One moment.
address the issues on this.
And then as Mr.
Let me just
I think that to
try to address the impact on Mrs. O'Dell, and
I know you've heard some of the things, but
the setback of this property is a 30-foot
front yard setback, which means that if we
stuck within the bounds of the building
envelope and pushed the house even further
back, we would be only 40 feet from their
common property line and that would be a
significant impact on the change to the
existing conditions as she's enjoyed them and
as everyone has enjoyed them. So there is --
if you take a look at the site plan the
building envelope is shown there and yes, we
could move back, but we'd be right on top of
their property line. Without variances we
could move back on top of their property line.
That's not what my client wants. They --
they're making the application better by
moving the house back, but also trying to cut
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
the baby in half keeping it
where they want it,
back on top of the
MEMBER SIMON:
forward, which is
but also not pushing it
front yard setback.
You're predicting, I
think,
because --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MRS. MOORE: Well, by
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
herself.
that she would like what you might do
She's right here --
-- to speak for
hear this from
know if she
what I'm trying to
explain.
MR. WEBER:
I just wanted to
Could I just state one thing
say that if you look north of
the garage to the 40-foot front yard setback,
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MEMBER SIMON: I want to
her. If she could --
MRS. MOORE: But I don't
understands that and that's
MEMBER SIMON: That's what I'm saying.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, yeah. Well, I have to
address you. I can't -- if I face her, I'd
say you really don't want us to make this
project conforming because honestly it would
really-- the house would be centered. We
could certainly put our pool in the front --
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
if you move the house back to that line you
would basically have the house in a conforming
location and would not need a variance.
MRS. MOORE:
side yard.
MR. WEBER:
Except for the pool and the
Except for the pool. You
would not need a variance for the 75-foot
setback. I think Mrs. O'Dell was mentioning
100 feet, but it's actually 75 feet. So all
we're short is 25 feet and that's about the
distance from the back of the garage to the
front property line or to the front setback
line.
MEMBER SIMON: I think it's very
reasonable, but I don't think it's up to you
or us --
MR. WEBER: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: -- to decide what your
neighbor would like. If she agrees with you,
fine. If she doesn't, then she kind of has --
MRS. MOORE: I -- but I'm -- sometimes --
and she said she -- if she had gone to see an
attorney to explain what the setbacks are and
what could be done by law on this property, I
think that, after reviewing it with an
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
attorney that could direct her on what the
setbacks are and how the -- and what the
impact would be, I think ultimately they would
realize that, you know, yes, the two evils are
one change and construction project versus,
you know, and certainly doing nothing, versus
what is being proposed which is trying to
accommodate all interests and that is your job
at that point.
MEMBER SIMON:
the neighbor is not
I just saying you're --
a child. She doesn't have
to have other people decide what is in her
best interests.
MRS. MOORE:
insinuate that.
Oh, I'm not trying to
I'm saying that she made the
statement that she does -- I'm sorry, I don't
mean to interrupt.
I was not trying to be insulting I was
trying to point out that she seems unsure of
how it might impact her, but I don't know that
she sees the alternative. That's all I'm
suggesting.
MEMBER OLIVA: But Pat, if she hasn't
seen the plans or had it explained to her, or
if the neighbors took her by the hand or
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something and
MRS. MOORE: Okay,
Mrs. O'Dell --
showed where it was staked out -
now I'm going to have
MRS.
MRS.
question.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, good.
MRS. RICCIO: Good afternoon. I'm Claire
Riccio. I'm so sorry that this is taking so
long, but I can't sit here any longer.
We have lived in this house for -- this
is our fifth season. When we bought this
house it was just a little beach bungalow on a
beach that we've been on for 25 years that I
was beside myself that we could do. We have
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we have here.
answer to your
MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
MOORE: That's what
O'DELL: That's the
MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, fine.
MRS. O'DELL: They asked me a question.
Could I ask the question about where the
placement of the house --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
MRS. O'DELL: For me it would be best if
it was on the eastern as close to the eastern
side of the property as possible.
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tried to cosmetically fix it up. It's
adorable. We've tried to plant things that
don't require irrigation. We've tried to make
it as beautiful as possible. We've taken care
of Mrs. O'Dell's spectacular view, which is in
essence our property, and it's been wonderful,
but unfortunately at this point the termites
are winning the battle. We need to make a
decision and we're trying so hard because we
appreciate the fact that Mrs. O'Dell is back
there. She's been there for years. She is
only there in the summer. She comes in July
and she's out of there in the beginning of
August. We're there for eight months now. We
sleep in sleeping bags cause we don't really
have heat, but we love it there.
So we tried so hard to figure out how we
could make this a little bit nicer for our
family and take her position into
consideration because it would break my heart
if I was in the situation also. Last weekend,
because I knew she was coming up from Texas I
wasn't sure if she was going to get the
certified letter, we made sure that we went
and knocked on the door and said Sue we kind
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of have to talk to you. We explained what our
situation was. We explained what our choices
were. My husband and I, at that point, had
already, cause the architect couldn't get out,
we knew you guys were going to come, we staked
out the whole property. We did the tape. We
did everything and we said, Sue, you know,
it's done come on over we'll walk you through
it. We'll explain everything and, you know,
in all fairness to her she's just, oh, my gosh
and I understand that. But, we're trying very
hard to accommodate her and we thought that
this was a really good solution. So that's
kind of where we stand.
I mean we're beside ourselves with this
piece of property. It is spectacular if
you've gone down there, but it's also a little
scary right now. Like the deck is going to go
into -- you know what I mean? We need to do
something because it's old and it just needs
to be fixed. So that's --
MEMBER OLIVA: I just wanted your view on
the record, too, that you did try to make
contact with Mrs. O'Dell and explain to her --
MRS. RICCIO: Absolutely and in --
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MEMBER OLIVA:
in such a short period of time.
it --
MRS. RICCIO: Could I just
-- and she did (inaudible)
It does make
also in just
talking about like with the driveway and stuff
like that, we have a gentleman, Fred Bauer,
who basically came with the house. He was the
caretaker for about 50 years and without Fred
we couldn't live there because he crawls Under
and I mean what this man does for us is
unbelievable, but every week he clears the
driveway of debris because it's all old and
overgrown and when there's a storm he clears
everything. Years ago when we first came we
didn't want to bother Mrs. O'Dell because
there'd be ruts or there'd be problems or
whatever so we took it upon ourselves to call
Peter Stone. He would fill things in for us.
Fred helped us out. You know,
to make it nice for everybody.
make a big deal out of it, we
was the right thing to do. Okay,
so much.
MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just a follow up --
we just tried
So we didn't
just thought it
so thank you
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MS. O'DELL: Can I say something? Most
winters my children have been living in the
house, but there has been someone in my house
all year round. Also, in terms of last
weekend coming over to my deck to see me, I
had been down the week before and not said a
word. It was just last weekend that they said
something about what they are doing.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, we talked at
length about the setbacks and so forth. We
talked at length about the driveway, right-of-
way, superhighway. We have not addressed the
other third variance, which is the pool in the
side yard.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So would you please make
some comments about that?
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
side yard as you can see
the area open. There is
Yes, the pool in the
our effort is to keep
a pedestrian access
that Mrs. O'Dell has to get to the beach so we
are keeping -- not interfering with that. We
-- it is all related to the pool. We tried to
keep the pool about the same setback as the
house so everything is in line. I think it
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has already been put on the record that a pool
in the front yard, the front street side would
not make any sense. The sanitary, a new
sanitary is required and that's more north of
the pool.
It is with a patio area around it. It is
a relative small pool, 13 by 20, with a small
hot tub spa attached to it. There's not much
to say about it. You've been getting an
enormous number probably several every time
you meet on pools in the side yard and it is
by virtue of trying to keep structures away
from the water. Again, if we keep the pool on
the waterfront side of the house and then put
the house behind the pool, unfortunately to
repeat myself, it would place the house closer
to the O'Dell property line. So, again, we
tried to compromise with keeping the pool and
the fact that it's an unenclosed open area
that you can see the open space would be
retained that way. So that is the purpose of
placing the pool in the side yard as it is.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to ask one
more question.
MRS. MOORE:
Sure, go ahead.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why did you choose
to take a 15-foot side yard on the east side
as opposed to the opposite side?
MRS. MOORE: Go ahead.
MR. RICCIO: We wanted to have the house
as close to the east property line as we could
because that's -- it's sort of tucked behind
an existing shed and off to the side of the
property as much the same reason we loaded the
garage on that side because that side is more
tree-lined and in a sense out of view's way
from the property behind. We left more of the
open space on the west side.
MRS. MOORE: It would seem to me more
intrusive to flip it and put the house closer
to the property line on the west side and put
our pool on the Verano side given that it's
already been developed and we're taking away
house. So we're improving an existing
condition. There is almost a zero, a 2-foot
setback on the east side and that's why the
house has been pushed that way.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I just wanted to make
sure that I'm reading this correctly. 51 foot
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2 inches from the closest point of the pool to
the top of the bluff?
MRS. MOORE: Uh --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, to the bulkhead.
MR. WEBER: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: To the bulkhead. 51.2 is
the pool itself. The patio around it is not a
structure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. What is the side
yard of the pool from the west? It doesn't
show.
MR. WEBER: It's 10 feet, I guess.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, accessory side
yard, 10 foot.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: What is the distance from
the edge of the patio of the pool to the
bulkhead?
MR. WEBER: It's a 5-foot patio. So it
would be 5-foot less, it would be 46.
MRS. MOORE: 46 feet or so.
MEMBER SIMON: Could the pool conceivably
be moved further to the north?
MRS. MOORE: Well, we're going to tuck it
so into the side yard you start -- I don't
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know where is the sun here? East, west --
well, you start dealing with shadow.
MEMBER SIMON: As it stands the pool and
patio are closer to the water than the house
would be, right?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, by --
MR. WEBER: The pool is not, but the
patio is.
MRS. MOORE: The patio.
MR. WEBER: Correct.
MEMBER SIMON: The patio.
The pool would be a little bit closer
than the porch according to this plan, even
the pool itself.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, well, it's -- the
measuring increments when you're dealing when
you're dealing with bulkhead, so I think
(inaudible) wise.
MR. WEBER: The porch is 50 feet 2 inches
and the actual house is 54.5.
MRS. MOORE: And the pool is 51.2.
MEMBER SIMON: The pool itself, apart
from the patio, is just a little bit less than
that.
MRS. MOORE: No, it's 51 -- so it's
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
actually a bigger
than the porch.
MEMBER SIMON:
MRS. MOORE:
number than the house deck,
It looks as though --
You know, because everything
is a little skewed.
MEMBER SIMON: I'm reading the map.
MRS. MOORE: If you look at the
measurements just to the right of Where it
says 25.5, it says 50 feet 2 inches. That's
to the new deck.
BOARD ASST.:
foundation.
MEMBER SIMON:
closer and this, oh,
There you go, thank you.
The pool is closer than the
Yeah, it is a little bit
I see you're saying
because it's different on this end.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, where are we?
MRS. MOORE: Just for the record, you
talked about COs and so on, they're surprised
there is no CO on the house, quite frankly,
because there was a building permit that was
issued in '04 for this property. I don't know
what for -- it was before you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you repeat
that for the record, please?
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry, I was just
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getting information.
In May 19th '04 the Building Department
issued a building permit --
BOARD ASST.: I saw that.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, which was for I think
the cellar is as-built. Something that had
been built by the seller so it was legalizing
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There was no CO on
that.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
anything.
MRS. MOORE:
BOARD ASST.:
There was no CO on the --
There was no CO on
Pardon?
We've researched it. No CO
for anything. The dormer, the sheds, all open
permits expired. I could find no record of
inspection of the right-of-way to the house
under the Fire Code. So just -- just
information.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. Alright, again it
would be all moot because we're demolishing
here.
BOARD ASST.: I know, again, I'm just
mentioning it for the record.
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MRS. MOORE: Okay. There was a two-car
garage that we do have a permit, an open
permit that is currently still open and could
be built, which would be a detached garage
right very close to the O'Dell property line.
BOARD ASST.: Right.
MRS. MOORE: So that's still a
possibility depending
MEMBER WEISMAN:
on what occurs here. So
On this
particular site
plan that we've got (inaudible) site plan, we
don't have any notation of any drywells or
roof runoff on this plan. It may be on other
-- unless I'm not seeing it. There's a
proposed septic north of the pool. No
location for the proposed pump equipment.
MRS. MOORE: I don't think we got that
far, I'm sorry.
MR. WEBER: Yeah, I mean we would
obviously put drywells in. I could add that
if you want.
MRS. MOORE: We could add it or you could
make it as a condition and we would certainly
incorporate it because we have to have it --
we couldn't get a CO without it these days,
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254
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, it's good to have
it noted on the survey so we know, you know,
that septic is pretty close to your pool.
MRS. MOORE: 20 feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's required
under LWRP.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's setback.
MRS. MOORE: What is? I'm sorry. The
drywells? Yeah, the condition we'd have no
problem with. Certainly we would -- that's
sometHing that we would have to do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What about the non-
turf buffer landward of the top of the bluff
to further protect the integrity of the bluff?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, that's right.
MRS. MOORE: Do you want a non-turf
buffer, we'll give you a non-turf buffer.
It's, yeah, I -- non-turf is just grass. They
don't want, yeah, which is now vegetated
anyway, but you might have to add some extra
vegetation.
Well, right now there's a deck with the
non-turf buffer so we comply, but when we
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remove the deck the vegetation would just be
extended on the top of the bank whether it's
non-turf or some other --
MEMBER OLIVA: Native.
MRS. MOORE: -- native, yeah, drought
tolerant plantings.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's not non-
turf.
MRS. MOORE: Non-turf, yeah, is just
don't put grass, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Native grasses are fine.
MRS. MOORE: Beach grasses are fine. We
would provide for non-turf or vegetation.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need that in the
LWRP. Where are we from here?
Who wants to speak? We have to wrap this
up in a very short period of time. We are in
overtime already with our court reporter.
Mrs. O'Dell, would you like to --
MRS. O'DELL: I just want to end by
saying I've lived on the property for 40 years
and when the sign went up I went to the Zoning
Board and saw what plans were available and do
you make a decision today?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
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MRS. O'DELL: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the 17th at the
earliest. I will be back there this weekend.
MRS. MOORE: Oh good.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will probably
bring my biggest vehicle.
MRS. MOORE: You can bring a fire truck.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I can't take a fire
truck out of the district. So if you see me
I'll probably be in my silver truck. Okay.
MRS. O'DELL: Thank you.
MRS. MOORE: We'll make sure that the
sticks stay up. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have been to the
property three times, but as you said you've
just staked it.
MRS. MOORE: Last Friday.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we thank
you, Mrs. O'Dell.
MRS. O'DELL: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else in the audience who would like to speak
regarding this?
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June 26, 2008
BOARD ASST.:
the right-of-way.
MRS. MOORE:
satisfied?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well,
discuss that in a letter of
(Inaudible) something on
In writing or are you
if you could just
some sort, you
know, about the right-of-way and why you think
it's perfectly legal to do it and do it right
nOW.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I will give you a
letter with respect to -- I'll look at the
Zoning Code on the definition of right-of-way,
the definition of a driveway.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. (Inaudible)
where they are in the Code, what's there.
BOARD ASST.: It's through the office.
MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. Of course, I
write to the Board.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that letter
will be submitted to the Town Engineer for his
evaluation.
MRS. MOORE: You can give it to whomever
you want. Do you want me to send it to the
Town Engineer when I send it to you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you want.
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MRS. MOORE: Copy the Town Engineer, save
you a step. Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Hearing no further comment from anyone,
I'll make a motion closing the hearing,
reserving decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
**********************************************
HEARING %6175 - Joseph Zito
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request for a
Variance under Sections 280-122A and 280-124
(formerly 100-244), based on the Building
Inspector's April 8, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval, and ZBA Code Interpretation %5039
{Walz) the applicant proposes to build a
second-story addition to the existing single-
family dwelling, which new construction will
be set back less than 35 feet from the front
lot line, at 3600 Deep Hole Drive, Mattituck;
CTM 115-17-8."
Mr. Zito, how are you today?
MR. FEEHAN: Rich Feehan for Mr. and Mrs.
Zito.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, okay.
MR. FEEHAN: How are you today?
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June 26, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
last name, sir?
MR. FEEHAN: F, like
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
Can you spell your
in Frank, E-E-H-A-N.
Thank you. What
would you like to tell us?
MR. FEEHAN: Well, basically we're
putting on -- the Town has changed their
zoning since the house was built which was a
27-foot setback is now a 35. We'd like to put
a second story on to go even with the front of
the existing house. We're not looking to
encroach, going over at any place. That's
going to accommodate as the plans show three
bedrooms, actually two bedrooms and a gym and
a bathroom.
MEMBER OLIVA: Are you building on the
existing foundation?
MR. FEEHAN: Yes, we are and it's
adequate.
MEMBER OLIVA: Has it been
an engineer?
MR. FEEHAN:
MEMBER OLIVA:
certified by
Yes, it has.
Do we have a copy of that?
MR. FEEHAN: You have the certified
plans, I believe, right?
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MEMBER OLIVA: I'd like to have -- we
like to have, because we've had so many
problems of people wanting to put the second
story on and then starting to build and find
out that the foundation will not hold it.
MR. FEEHAN: Okay, this is a -- basically
it's a concrete foundation and it's been there
since the beginning of time. I mean when the
engineer went over he saw no problem.
MEMBER OLIVA: We'd like just a letter
for the file.
MR. FEEHAN: Just a letter, okay, sure we
can do that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It says you're going to
maintain the existing footprint and setback.
MR. FEEHAN: Absolutely.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Site inspection
(inaudible) certainly in keeping with the
neighborhood. They all have pretty much
nonconforming front yard setbacks. They were
all built before 35-foot front yard setback
was required. You don't have any alternative
but to get a variance because of that. You're
just increasing it by a second story, so I
don't have any particular questions. Just it
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seems to me to be a reasonable approach. It's
a modest addition and I think it's going to
improve the house substantially and add to the
appearance of the neighborhood.
MR. FEEHAN: Thank you. We do, too.
MEMBER SIMON: Often we are asked to
explain whether we think that addition will be
detrimental to anybody. In this case, it will
be the opposite of detrimental.
I have no questions.
MEMBER OLIVA: Beside that, even though
you just have 27 feet, with the trees and the
shrubbery that you have in the front with the
circular drive, it gives the impression that
it's further back.
MR. FEEHAN: I missed it myself, and I'm
the contractor. I didn't measure, I just -- I
just went for the Building Department, that's
when we found out we required a variance at
the front yard.
MEMBER OLIVA: It will be an improvement.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What I'm requesting
is leaders and gutters into drywells has to be
done.
MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We would appreciate
that.
MR. FEEHAN: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anything in
reference to driveway that would not cause any
leech into the creek?
MR. FEEHAN: We're not changing anything.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so the
driveway will remain stone?
MR. FEEHAN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. You still
are addressing Trustees issues regarding the
back of the house?
MR. FEEHAN: We've gotten past that and
we've been approved and were issued a permit
by the Trustees.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
MR. FEEHAN: Next is the DEC, of course.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what do you have
to do then? You have to put hay bales up
during construction?
MR. FEEHAN: They haven't asked for that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. FEEHAN: But I would assume that's --
that'll be what --
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the
BOARD ASST.: Is it in writing yet? Is
permit in writing?
MR. FEEHAN: Yeah, it is.
BOARD ASST.: Did you just get it like
within a couple of days?
MR. FEEHAN: No, no. We've got it about
three weeks ago.
BOARD ASST.:
MR. FEEHAN:
there, I mean I haven't
that closely because we
Okay.
If the hay baling is on
really looked at it
still had this to deal
with and the DEC. So I figured well --
MEMBER OLIVA: You passed the DEC,
too?
MR. FEEHAN: Not yet.
MEMBER OLIVA: Not yet. Uh-oh.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't have any
questions.
MR. FEEHAN: But I know that they're
going to want something for the foundation as
well so that's why I'll have it singled out.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're
standing there I'll ask if anybody would like
to speak in favor or against?
Sir? How do you do?
MR. FABRY: Joe Fabry, F-A-B-R-Y, 3700
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
Deep Hole Drive. I live next door to the
existing. I'm not in support or opposed to
the variance. As a matter of fact, I knew the
gentleman before that owned the house and he
had the house (inaudible) or something and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A lot of those
houses were.
MR. FABRY: I know when I put my house in
in '78 we had to have a 35-foot, it only makes
sense. You know, it's 27 feet back, I mean I
don't see a problem with that. My concern is
that this isn't going to be zoned for
commercial use or anything like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's strictly
residential.
MR. FABRY: Okay. As long as that's it I
have no problem with it. I don't really see a
problem with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that the case,
sir?
MR. FEEHAN: That's the case.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We thank you.
Anybody else who would like to speak?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision until
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ZBA Town of Southold June 26, 2008
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - June 26, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
Hearings.
Signature ~~Oa~
Denise GasLwski
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Date:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
November 11, 2008
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