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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-02/28/2008 Hearing1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Southold Town Hall Southold, New York February 28, 2008 9:41 a.m. Board Members Present: GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member RUTH D. OLIVA - Member MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 G ;G;NAL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 INDEX OF HEARINGS Hearing: Page: Kurt Freudenberg and Janet Lathem #6121 3-32 Paul and Maureen Cacioppo %6127 32-46 Serota Properties #6125 46-64 Greg and Karmen Dadourian #6131 64-110 Jennifer and David Collins 96123 110-112 Marjorie Dunn %6122 112-134 Anthony E. and Carol Mitarontondo #6128 134-141 Richard and Marylou Manfredi %6124 141-151 Donald and Janis Rose #6130 151-171 David Fisher #6126 171-177 Hans H. Reiger %6132 177-200 George Theodorakos #6133 200-203 John Corbley #6119 203-205 Thomas and Margaret Noone #6107 205-223 Harbes Family Farm LLC %6106 223-277 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 PUBLIC HEARINGS -- HEARING #6121 Kurt Freudenberg and Janet Lathem MEMBER SIMON: "Request for Variances under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's November 28, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning the as-built location of an accessory shed and the proposed location of an accessory swimming pool, which will exceed the maximum code-permitted 20% lot coverage for all buildings and structures. Location of Property: Northerly side of Lester's Road (a private Right-of-Way off the east side of Westphalia Avenue), Mattituck; CTM 114-7-2.1.)" There is a shed and they intend to construct a pool and this is property which backs up to the creek, a leg of the creek or arm of the creek. They're asking for a variance so that they can have the shed, have the pool in what is technically a side yard rather then the code-required rear yard and that's the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: And also lot coverage. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, MEMBER SIMON: What? MEMBER WEISMAN: There's also lot coverage. MEMBER SIMON: Oh. It's also lot coverage. The lot coverage of -- 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: 20 -- MEMBER SIMON: -- 20.6%. MEMBER WEISMAN: Over 20%. MRS. MOORE: 20 -- MEMBER SIMON: Oh, 20.6%. MRS. MOORE: No, 20.6, so .6 over. MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, right, right. Okay and that's my introduction. Would you like to yOU. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: -- say -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. I'll continue, thank The basis for this application is that in 2001 we -- my client the permit process. Through that process and I helped them through They built a new house. the Trustees requested that we retain a non-disturbance buffer, which has been maintained and you can see the non- disturbance area that is shown on the map as PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 limit of clearing, grading and ground disturbance. So not only would placement of a pool in a rear yard be impossible in that we would violate that non-disturbance area, but it would also bring the structure too close to the creek. So the only reasonable alternative for a pool at this site, on this property, would be in the technically side yard. So that is the application that's before you. They have the area where the pool is proposed if you -- you've obviously inspected the property, is the area where there is a children's playground right now. It is a disturbed area. It's a nice flat area and it would work very well. This is -- the family lives here year-round. They have young children and they want to provide for normal amenities and recreation for their girls who I believe are two daughters and right now are in elementary school. So that is the purpose of placement of the pool in the side yard. The shed, they were under the impression that a shed did not require a permit and was not a problem. When we saw it, we realized no it would have required a variance to place PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 this shed in a side yard. Again, there's really no other location for a shed. You don't really want to push it towards the water. It is customized in a sense that it was built to match the architectural style of the house. So they would really like to keep that shed and that shed probably is the only reason that we're exceeding the lot coverage by .6. So given the fact that it was a more aesthetically expensive structure, they do want to ask the Board to grant them the variance so that they can keep it. Also it will be very useful for the pool because it can allow for all the equipment to be stored and, as in any other home, their year-round garage tends to be a little cluttered. So the shed is very useful. Aside from that, the application pretty much speaks for itself. Really the circumstances of this property being on the creek and the non-disturbance area being so far towards landward really does put significant limitations on how this property can be developed. If you have any questions, I'll certainly -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER SIMON: Just a couple. MRS. MOORE: Sure. MEMBER SIMON: First of all, the comment that the application speaks for itself, but only with your able assistance. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: Secondly, I don't have the arithmetic on this 0.6%, how many feet does that translate into; do you know? MRS. MOORE: I don't know that I have the ability to calculate at this moment. MEMBER SIMON: Is it possible that the shed, which is under 100 square feet, is less than the -- no more than the 0.6%? MRS. MOORE: It's too close to tell. The problem is that you have to, now with the code, deduct wetlands. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MRS. MOORE: Wetlands, the line, I mean Howard Young did a very good job, but -- MEMBER SIMON: I -- MRS. MOORE: -- it's over the little bit of a guess. MEMBER SIMON: It's a minor point, I was just (inaudible) with the puzzle that the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 square feet of the shed don't count as far as requiring a variance, except unless it happens that it pushes the variance to over 20%. MRS. MOORE: No also because of its location in the side yard. MEMBER SIMON: Location is -- MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is this is a very small amount. MRS. MOORE: It is. It's really nominal. MEMBER SIMON: I'm just curious about that because of a legal structure doesn't require variance for its size, it nevertheless increases the lot coverage by a certain amount. My other question is, just for curiosity, are they replacing the children's play area with the pool or are they going to -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: -- put the play area someplace else? MRS. MOORE: No, it's a replacement. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I have no further questions. MRS. MOORE: Okay. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 ZBA Town of CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: one thing? I scaled the Southold - February 28, 2008 Can I just mention shed to be 8 by 12 and the 0.6 is the referring to. MEMBER SIMON: Yes, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: same figure that you are right. That's number one. Number two, I just want to mention and I'm not taking it away from my fellow Board members, but when you see a step situation on a pool like this it brings it into what they refer to as the shape of a pool fairly close one side. Lazy-L, which pushes the to that property line on the MEMBER WEISMAN: It sure does. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any reason why that L can't be removed and pull that pool back a little bit? I'm just mentioning it, Leslie, and then I'll go right onto you cause if that's what you were going to bring up, I apologize. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, disturbance is (inaudible) real query that I've got. the land that's the only I could continue with that line of questioning -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- so Pat can answer your question. MRS. MOORE: Which would you like answered first? As far as the placement of the pool, we did try to comply with the set -- the legal setback. I think that there's a set down because just for comfort, it is a nice feature. I -- if you said to us well we don't want you to have that step down, we'd rather have a rectangular pool, but the problem is I think we were trying to keep it -- we're trying to place this pool in such a location where we don't encroach on the non-disturbance area and again we don't push it too close to the street. So this -- they carefully plotted this with the pool company to try to meet all of the requirements and requesting the only variance being a side yard variance. If you asked me to reposition it, I'd have to go back to everybody and say, you know, can we move it some? I could certainly, if it's a problem for the Board, certainly I would not -- I think the clients are amenable. They're just -- they're trying to address the location here in such a way that their meeting PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 as many of the code conditions as possible. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm just going to leave this to Leslie, but I'm going to say that those steps could actually be placed into the pool. you. MRS. Okay and I'll just leave it with MOORE: Yeah. There are various alternatives. know, just a normal ladder CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MRS. MOORE: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I MEMBER WEISMAN: That's from a safety point of view, steps should be in the pool. You can have no step and, you down. Right. apologize. alright. Well, frankly, the MRS. MOORE: Inside the pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: Inside the pool. drawn as though it is. MRS. MOORE: Well, like a step down to the down. Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: is -- the placement only alternative that have it is just about PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 It' s it is. It's a shallow shallow area and then Well, in any case that in the side yard is the you have and where you as good as you can 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 12 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 possibly get relative to where your setbacks from the Trustees' requirement is; however it's still, you know, it's 50 feet and there's substantial slope. Really substantial slopes and, of course, it has been flattened out where the play area is, but by the time you turn that around, you are now encroaching in an area that is sloped. Not the worst part of the slope, but sloping down toward the creek as you go toward the rear yard of the house more toward the creek. So I guess really what I -- I certainly have no objection to the shed as-built. It has no visual impact on anyone and you're placing the pool between there and the non- disturbance zone is perfectly sensible. I don't really object to it in the side yard either in this situation. What I would like is more information cause all we really have is the survey. MRS. MOORE: No. the plans of the pool, in there. MEMBER WEISMAN: file. I think I did deliver like the -- yes, it's Oh, let me look at the Pugliese CourtReporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Because maybe I'm not seeing -- MRS. MOORE: No, it's here. It was sent 13 by mail to you January l0th, I delivered it January l0th and I asked Swim King who is the contractor on this to give me a diagram. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, cause I want to see what you're talking about in terms of land disturbance and railroad ties. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, sections through the earth just to make sure that the grading plan is not going to have a negative impact -- MRS. MOORE: Sure, right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- environmentally. I'm looking for the -- MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MOORE: delivered. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, they're -- January lOth it was There's a cover letter. There's a letter with the diagram that tells you what you want to know, I believe. PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh. Yes, it's here. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: But again, right. Well, let me see what it says. I'll just pull it out. Because I may need you to interpret -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, it's a concrete (inaudible) footings. I don't think it's called a footing, but it's concrete walls. MEMBER WEISMAN: This actually has nothing to do with the site. This is a section through the pool itself -- MEMBER SIMON: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- showing the material in the construction of the pool, what it is made out of and so on and steps going down. What is more useful, in order for us to determine environmental impact and potential mitigation like drywells and so on, which would likely the case anyway, in something that places it on the site relative to the contours and any kind of retaining wall. You know, a section actually that incorporated site section rather than a section of the pool, which is not that difficult for either the pool company or a surveyor or an PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 architect, somebody can do that simply so that we can take the -- particularly the other Board members can examine with me the relationship between the plan in its place relative to the slope. Pat? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, You know what I mean, I think I do. I would MEMBER WEISMAN: You know, we have the flat area is -- MRS. MOORE: It would make sense to -- it's almost like a topo. A grading plan or a combination of a -- MEMBER WEISMAN: With elevations. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a grading plan. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: That shows placement of the pool relative to the slope so looking at a vertical section. MRS. MOORE: I think the surveyor, Young and Young are the engineers, might be better suited. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. I'm sure they can accomplish that information. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 16 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: It isn't placement so much, but without that information we don't have a reasonable way of accessing precisely how much land disturbance there is and displacement, where they have to put in retaining walls to bring the grade up so that it's level with the existing grade where the play area is. Is that a five-foot setback from the property line? It's not really clear MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's where -- yes that's a five-foot -- the measurement is on the right-hand side. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'm looking at that. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: but that's what I was clarify. MRS. MOORE: MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not totally clear, seeing. Okay, just to Um-hmm. Alright, that's it for me. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, MEMBER SIMON: Just an editorial question. Is the name Lathem or is it "Lethem". MRS. MOORE: Lathem. 2008 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, because on the -- well one of the letters a couple it has Letham. MRS. MOORE: I could have misspelled. MEMBER SIMON: I didn't know which is which, I mean they can't both be right. MRS. MOORE: You know, honestly, I'll have to look and see which is the correct spelling. It's Lathem. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, that's a more familiar name. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do we have a pump out on the plans, I don't see it? MRS. MOORE: No, I think it would be most likely the drywell -- it has to keep a certain distance from the might be right in playground area. sanitary. So it would -- it the area of where it says CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: I mean I could ask the engineer to give me the location. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Of the drywell? MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: That would be good. MEMBER OLIVA: I was just concerned about the slope and having to dig out to make it all to grade. It's level if you go horizontally, really, but I guess it would be too close to the house. The pool if you switched it around the other way. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. No, it really doesn't fit the other way. MEMBER OLIVA: And how many feet is that from the side yard? MRS. MOORE: Five. MEMBER OLIVA: Five. MRS. MOORE: It is five feet. Keep in mind that the adjacent property has their, I think it's their garage adjacent to the pool. If I remember correctly, the garage is towards the street very close to the street. When you go by, that's my memory. So we're not right next to -- I'm trying to remember the name. The builder. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't -- MRS. MOORE: No, there's one next door. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 19 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The builder sold that house, he lives across the street. MRS. MOORE: Oh he does. UNIDENTIFIED: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Oh alright. I knew that had been on the market at one point. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My only concern is buffering in between the pool and five feet, but I'll go back to Jim. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, as you know, we're here about five feet, basically. MRS. MOORE: No, no. The five -- well side yard. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. Right. Well, the five feet -- how close it is to the property line, that's why we're here. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: The slopes and all of that doesn't really concern me, but it does concern me that if you attached this thing to the house and moved it in 10 feet you wouldn't even need to be before us. You know, all the other stuff would be stuff you would have to take care of anyway such as slopes and grading Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 and all of that and you wouldn't even be needing a variance for all of this. So -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you need -- MEMBER DINIZIO: out why it has to be MRS. MOORE: To I'm interested to find five feet. I think -- keep a good clearance between the house and the pool that's the primary because the house is somewhat elevated. You have a -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, now I -- MRS. MOORE: You remember? MEMBER DINIZIO: There is a garage over there. MRS. MOORE: There is a garage, yeah. Well, the garage is on the opposite side MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I'm talking about the other property. MRS. MOORE: Oh yes. The other property, yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: But I guess my concern is that you need to keep it a distance from the house. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I've seen pools much closer to a house than this and still be Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-83S5 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 structurally be that, too. sound. I'm sure this one could You know, so -- MRS. MOORE: I just need a -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Your reasoning is what? MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: What is your reasoning that it needs to be five feet from the property line, I guess is -- MRS. MOORE: Well, our reasoning is that I think that they believe that a five foot was -- it's generally permissible. That's for the accessory structure, so they placed it at five feet and to keep a clearance because of the egress from the deck comes down and you go around. So rather than walk around the pool from the outside you walk directly along the house. Whether it could be pushed closer, you know, I could talk to the surveyor and give you an alternative that pushes it a little bit closer. If I had a sense of how many more feet you wanted me to ask the surveyor if he could push it away from the property line, I could certainly do that. We do expect to put up a fence, we have to put up a fence. So Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of that, most house next 22 Southold - February 28, 2008 likely, is the barrier between the door and the garage and the pool. So I don't know that they really had the idea of putting a fixed line of shrubs because they have to put fence most certainly. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. No, no. That, again, you know, I'm more concerned about the fact that you feel like you need to have five feet in the side yard, which you know the law is there because that's where a principle structure would be. Where people would be living, you know, side yards are lining up principle structures along the property. Okay? Now the reason why they don't allow accessory structures is because they're in the rear yard, they're not along side, you know, principle structures, but rather along side other accessory structures. So, you know -- MRS. MOORE: Well, for that reason here because of the unique -- these properties along the creek are shallow and so you're actually -- you have most of the accessory structures in the front yard, if not in the side yard. You're actually going to be getting, I know I've made several applications Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 for accessory structures in the side yard given the code changes to placement of accessory structures in rear yards or waterfront side of the houses. So the theory of not having accessory structures in the side yard is now somewhat misplaced in that you really can't put them in the rear yard. You're obligated on the waterfront properties to put them in the side yard and on this particular street you're going to find most of the accessory structures side or front yard. So the reasoning behind the code, initially how it was drafted, is somewhat undermined by other sections of the code now. So I think that you're going to be seeing many of those applications and it's a good point to make of the reasoning behind putting accessory structures in a rear yard to keep them away from principle, not only the house, but neighboring principle structures. I think that, as I said, has gone by the wayside because of other overriding code revisions. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, maybe -- I mean again, the reasoning is -- MRS. MOORE: It may have been good PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 reasoning, yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's the point. MRS. MOORE: But we have other sections of the code that have undermined that provision. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, certainly. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: And doing this we're undermining it also. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just think that you could get it closer to the house further -- I should say further away from the property line. MRS. MOORE: Further away from the neighbor. I can certainly have -- this was the proposal that was given to me. I don't know that they would certainly object to pushing it away. I think it's just a question of making sure that we don't -- we have -- because of the angle of the house, we -- the house and the property line, it gets a little tricky on how you straighten it or push it away and not encroach on the non-disturbance area. So maybe there's a way of, you know, if PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 we do -- if we eliminate that step down that might give us some more room. So I'll have that as an option. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, - I mean I have a pool the Although I don't have a -- I could tell you same size. I wish I had a 14- foot instead of a 7-foot one, just because that's where every -- MRS. MOORE: Everybody ends up sitting, yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- sitting there. You know, they seem to enjoy just sitting on the stairs. Okay, you know, if you think you can get it further away, MRS. MOORE: I effort, sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: that's why we're here. certainly will make that Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We don't know, Mrs. Moore, before we close this hearing -- MRS. MOORE: Well, we're going to leave it open cause I need to come back to you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MRS. MOORE: Sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was a rhetorical question. We don't know if you're Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ZBA Town of Southold - going to need a landscape pool and the side yard at don't know, okay. Alright? MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: are. The other two things February 28, 2008 plan between the this point. We It's up in the air. So that's where we I just wanted to mention was the pump out you've taken care of or the drywell, so to speak. MRS. MOORE: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll need some sort of plan in reference to where the filter system is going to go and -- MRS. MOORE: Isn't that the -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- be noise sensitive. Okay? MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's the new issues that we've been dealing with the last four or five years. Now, we're going to go over, if you don't mind, while you're standing there, you can continue to stand there if you so choose, we're going to over and see if anybody else would like to speak in favor or against this application. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Would anybody like to speak against this application? Yes, ma'am. You have to use the microphone. State your name for the record, please. MS. DROEGE: Madelyn Droege. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do? MS. DROEGE: How can I find out if all the issues that I have with the pool are being addressed? I hear you spoke about the size of the pool possibly being reduced and the noise issue. Were there other issues brought up? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd really rather not go through the whole thing. I'll do a quick repertoire. If I miss anything, the Board members can further supplement what I'm saying. MRS. MOORE: It may be more helpful if you just tell us what you -- MS. DROEGE: Well, the issues I have have already been brought up and I'm sure that someone is looking into it. it's too crowded. I don't enough room and -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's the noise, think there's Okay, are you looking for any type of barrier between Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of yourself and any properties that are or contiguous to this piece? MS. DROEGE: There's the driveway. Is there a variance being requested to make it bigger than usual? MRS. MOORE: The driveway? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What driveway? MRS. MOORE: Are you on the -- you're on the driveway side aren't you? MS. DROEGE: Yeah, side. MRS. MOORE: Okay. As I 28 Southold - February 28, 2008 adjacent our driveway be positioned from the front? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're going to have to bring it up here. MRS. MOORE: I'm sorry. MS. DROEGE: No. MRS. MOORE: That wasn't you? MS. DROEGE: Your mom. No that wasn't me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This pool is actually on the other side of the house. MS. DROEGE: And I was wondering there's a driveway. Does that require a variance or PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 made the application for this who came and talked to us about asking where recall when we house were you I'm on the driveway 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 is that -- MRS. MOORE: It's there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's there. MS. DROEGE: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody else who would like to speak against the application or has a concern regarding this application? Are there any neighbors here that are concerned about this application? MRS. MOORE: So let me just list the things that I'm going to bring back for you to make sure I have everything. I'm going to check with Young and Young on a grading plan with vertical sections for -- okay. I'm going to double check about retaining walls, if there are any retaining walls. Some was asking -- okay. The location of the drywell pump out, we need that shown. MEMBER OLIVA: And the noise. MRS. MOORE: Yes and then the final thing is the noise baffle equipment, where the equipment is going to be stored. MEMBER OLIVA: And also if you could move the pool away from the -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, MRS. MOORE: Yes. forgot to write down. from east neighbor. 2008 The obvious one that Okay. Move pool away MS. MRS. MOORE: No, no. mike. 30 house. MS. DROEGE: And it's CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to use the I apologize. We're taking this down. This pool is on the opposite side of your not being moved. Is your house the brick house or the house that's closest to the road -- MS. DROEGE: I'm on the east side of the property. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're on the east side of the property. MS. DROEGE: Right. When you said it's being moved, are you saying it's being moved to my side then? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's on your side then? I thought you were on the opposite side. MS. DROEGE: No, side as it was shown I am on the opposite on the drawing. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 DROEGE: Is there a pool by my house? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you are on the east side of this piece of property; is that correct? MS. DROEGE: MRS. MOORE: No, I'm on the west side. Let me give her the survey and she can point -- MS. DROEGE: I'm east of it. If I look west it's -- MRS. MOORE: Are you -- who did you (inaudible). MS. DROEGE: No. MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible). No, no, I'm sorry. Could you identify which property you -- are you on this side on the street or are you on this side from the (inaudible)? MS. DROEGE: MRS. MOORE: application? MS. DROEGE: application. MRS. MOORE: BOARD ASST.: delete everything MRS. MOORE: This is the wrong party. Oh. Are you on the wrong I'm on the wrong Oh, okay. Thank you. For the record, we will (inaudible). Thank you. Thank you. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-835S 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: tell us, Pat, Mrs. Moore, 2008 Would you please how close to the fence will be to the line particularly on that side of the property line? MRS. MOORE: I don't have an answer for you. It's permitted to be on the property line. So it's -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So you think it'll be close to the property line? MRS. MOORE: Yes, it probably would be, but I can ask for -- would you like a landscape plan or a detail of how we're going to screen that side? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would be wonderful. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no further comment, seeing no further hands, we'll make a motion to recess this hearing to April 24tn at 1 p.m. MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6127 - Paul and Maureen Cacioppo PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER OLIVA: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's December 27, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning the location of an accessory in-ground swimming pool, which will exceed the code limitation of 20% lot coverage, at 735 Jackson Street, New Suffolk; CTM 117-9-6." The proposed construction is not permitted pursuant to article 23 Section 200- 124, which allows the maximum lot coverage of 20%. Following the proposed construction, total lot coverage will be 23.4% and that's what we had. Now we've had letters of opposition and also -- well, two letters of opposition. One person could not be here today. You wish to have a pool. MR. LEHNERT: We wish to have a pool -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to staEe your name for the record. MR. LEHNERT: Rob Lehnert. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER OLIVA: I might point out you did have a prior on this piece of property. MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, I -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER OLIVA: And it's a completely different house than the one that we had approved before. MR. LEHNERT: Exactly. I'd just like to give a little short history of -- MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, go ahead. MR. LEHNERT: -- how we got here. Back on May l0th we were granted approval from this Board for alternate relief and we're here today for the lot coverage for this pool. We were granted a lot coverage of 21.4% for a substantially larger house than is currently being built on the site right now. What's being built on the site right now has a lot coverage of 19.25%. In the process between getting our variance and getting our building permit, my client decided to scale down the size of the house. So the house actually complies with the code. The only relief we actually did use from the last variance was for the Pergola that's proposed to go around the accessory cottage. So that's why we felt a pool at this time would still fall within reasonable bounds for issuing a variance. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 35 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Now I know there's been opposition from the neighbors. I received two of the letters and I believe this morning we got two more. I'd like to speak on a couple of issues on those letters. There's one letter from the neighbor, Mr. Tohill, and I believe he is to the south of the property. He sits on a pretty large lot and he's going into a lot of lot coverage things. You know, once again I'd like to reiterate that we're here for a pool, not a piece of the house going back up again. Like I said, we did have a substantially larger house, that's been cut back. We have another letter from the neighbor to the northeast, Mr. Hoisenack (sic) and part of the things he states, he's stating that there's a concern with his children and the fencing around the pool. Of course we're going to have fencing, that's part of the code. At this time we don't know exactly where that fence is going to be, but that'll appear when we go before the Building Department for that. Another question he brought up was where was the water going to come from. The water PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 for the pool is most likely going to be trucked in. We're not on a well and this house is served by public water. So in the worst case scenario it's going to be filled with public water, but we'd like to truck the water in to save money. He's speaking about wells and the Suffolk County Health Department application for a septic system. When the house plans were changed that application was dropped and we're sticking with the existing system for the house that's going there now, as was approved by the Building Department. MEMBER OLIVA: We have five feet off that property line for the pool? MR. LEHNERT: We're five feet off the property line on the rear and we're proposing 20 feet on the south side. So we're within the setbacks for the pool. MEMBER OLIVA: Where are you putting the pool equipment? MR. LEHNERT: The equipment, the pool equipment is most likely going to go close to the cottage. There's a -- we're going to put a fence -- we'd like to put a regular fence back there, not a chain link. So that's going PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 to mitigate some of the noise and by putting the cottage that's going to take of the noise that's going to go to it next to away a lot the west. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: a stockade fence? MR. LEHNERT: MEMBER OLIVA: 37 You're referring to Yes. Alright, it's a very nice house so I was rather shocked when I saw (inaudible). Pugliese Cou~ Reportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 concerned? MR. LEHNERT: MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, stockade fence. Planting is in front of it so it kind of softens? MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, it's going to, I mean if you looked at -- there's going to be plantings. Mr. Cacioppo has done a number of projects in the neighborhood, you know, they've all turned out really nice. They've all been well-maintained, well planted, well landscaped. We're planning to do the same thing. MEMBER OLIVA: You'll have that noise abatement that Mr. Goehringer was talking about as far as the pool equipment is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, MEMBER DINIZIO: MEMBER WEISMAN: No questions. The original lot 2008 coverage granted at 21.4% is now at, with the accessory pool, up to 23.4%, is that correct? MR. LEHNERT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there anything you can do to -- since you already have a fairly substantial, though perfectly legal, cottage there, relative to the size of the lot, it's beginning to be fairly intensely used. Is there anything you can do to reduce the proposed lot coverage of 23.4%, for example reducing the size of the pool? MR. LEHNERT: We can reduce the size of the pool. MEMBER OLIVA: To what? MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very substantial pool. MR. LEHNERT: It's a very substantial pool. MEMBER WEISMAN: A big pool. MR. LEHNERT: Yes, it is. We can reduce the size of the pool. it down by a couple of dimension. You know, we can bring feet on either Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Specifically? MEMBER OLIVA: I have to write this. MR. LEHNERT: Maybe a 16 by 30 or 15 by 25 -- would 15 by 25 be alright? MR. CACIOPPO: Yeah, that's fine. MEMBER WEISMAN: 15 by 25? MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, we could go down to that and that would bring down the lot coverage. BOARD ASST.: Is he Mr. Cacioppo? MR. LEHNERT: Yes, Mr. Cacioppo, the owner. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Okay and -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Could you submit an amended survey with the location of the drywells, the location of the pumping equipment and the noise reduction {inaudible)? MR. LEHNERT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: And the reduced size of the pool with a recalculated lot coverage? MR. LEHNERT: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And a fence. MR. LEHNERT: And a fence. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 40 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: And a fence and any potential of evergreen screening that you're proposing and whatever, so we have a total picture of what's possible. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that it? MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there's one other thing that I think if we would simply put in which is the manner by which you intend to use water to fill the pool and drain the pool. Simply so that we have some of the concerns in terms of water quality that the neighbors are raising addressed in writing. MEMBER OLIVA: pool? MR. LEHNERT: Where would you empty the We're going to have an overflow and the overflow would -- is going to go on the south side into the rear yard. You know, between the house and the pool towards the south end of the lot because there is a distance between the sanitary system. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well if you can, you know, while you're submitting this other information, indicate how that's going to work so that the environmental impacts are clear. MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: Yes. The house is smaller that was house. MR. LEHNERT: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: So I have a second question, there was an application for greater lot coverage than was actually awarded in the alternative. If the pool were limited to the lot coverage that was granted in the previous variance it's not clear to me that although there would be an -- whatever, 21.4%. MR. LEHNERT: variance. MEMBER SIMON: with the approval MR. LEHNERT: 21.4% was the previous That would be consistent that was given last month. Well, the approval given last time was alternate relief. So it was very specific as to what it was for. MEMBER SIMON: Right, alternate relief, PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 41 than was originally approved. MR. LEHNERT: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: The only reason that the applicant is before us today is because the pool is going to use up more than the space saved by reducing the size of the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 which meant that the idea of substituting a different part of alternate relief, {inaudible) it would be a lot presumably as far as the application is concerned is if the approved alternate relief was going to be used to put a pool in. So I guess what I'm saying is if the pool could be reduced to a size no greater than was originally authorized under the alternate relief, the Board would hardly be likely to have a problem with the lot coverage issue. MR. LEHNERT: Yeah. It would also generate a much smaller pool. MEMBER SIMON: Right. MR. LEHNERT: The other thing, this is a pool, we were given structure. MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. LEHNERT: relief for a two-story Right. Right. Well, I'm thinking it's two different things there. MEMBER SIMON: Right, is that obviously there's but what I'm saying a trade-off. There's a relationship between the reduction, the applicant's reduction in size of the house Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 and the (inaudible) of the pool, but that doesn't mean that the pool can be bigger than was originally authorized. So it looks as though some sort of agreement, compromise could very well be reached. That's what I'm - - that's a surmise, not a statement of fact. MR. LEHNERT: Well -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the fact that -- MEMBER WEISMAN: He has. MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, we've agreed to reduce the size. MEMBER WEISMAN: The impact is substantially less of an in-ground pool than it is with a second story on a house. MR. LEHNERT: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: So we should take it on merits of what you're proposing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a liner pool, right? MR. LENHERT: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not a gunite? MR. LEHNERT: Not a gunite pool. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No (inaudible) on a gunite, strictly liner. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - MR. LEHNERT: Liner. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 44 February 28, 2008 Before we move this hearing, we will, since the nature of one of those letters was to adjourn this hearing, so we will give you the date and you will hear this at the end of this hearing of April 24th at 1:20. Okay. Is there anybody else that would like to speak for or against this application? Okay, seeing no hands, I'll make a motion to adjourn the hearing to April 24tn at 1:20. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. MR. LEHNERT: So we're adjourning it or closing it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not closing it. MR. LEHNERT: We're not closing it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're adjourning it. So you could submit everything that we've requested. MR. LEHNERT: Okay. Can I also speak to the issue of the neighbors? I understand the one neighbor that we had a little fowl-up with the notification. The other neighbor, Rafenack (sic) on the side, his notification PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 went out in the allowed two weeks and he's asking for an adjournment because he's currently in Florida vacationing. I kind of feel we don't need -- we shouldn't be penalized for that if that was the one case that we're up against for an adjournment. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, he -- I understand exactly what you're saying, but it concerns me with what you're going to submit because if we can't question anything that you're going to submit that my fellow Board members have requested, and myself, so to speak, so that if they have any particular problem we would have to then reopen the hearing. So it really only makes sense -- it's really a double-edged sword no matter how you slice it. MR. LEHNERT: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and in no way is anybody pointing the sword. It's an upward sword, okay? MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Almost like a field goal. So that's what we're -- BOARD ASST.: Actually one more thing, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 February 28, 2008 Jennifer Gates. MR. LEHNERT: the letter today. BOARD ASST.: the Town records. MR. LEHNERT: BOARD ASST.: Right, I got her address on Yes, I gave -- it's also in Okay. So if you could please still do that as you're still required. MR. LEHNERT: Okay. BOARD ASST.: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So again I recommend a resolution we have a resolution to adjourn to April 24th at 1:20 p.m.; and I have a second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6125 Serota Properties MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-85A(2), based on the Building Inspector's October 29, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed new PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - there is another neighbor, MR. LEHNERT: Yes. BOARD ASST.: She's the one that did not receive the letter in Brooklyn, so if you could please still send her -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 ground sign, replacing the existing ground sign. The proposed sign will be greater than 47 three square feet in total area with an additional allowance of 20% of the total for the name of the business center, at King Kullen Shopping Center, 31525 Main Road, Cutchogue; CTM 97-5-12." CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you state your name for the record? MS. SEROWITZ: I'm Susan Serowitz, Keeney, FFK Enterprises, 2396 River Road, Calverton. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what would you like to tell us? MS. SEROWITZ: The -- I have also with me the sign company builder. If you want to know any particulars about the sign, he's here to speak on it as far as what we wish. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, one of the -- MS. SEROWITZ: It's -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead. MS. SEROWITZ: It's basically the shopping center was built in the '70s and that sign -- you've got a copy of what the sign looks like now, which is not nicely done -- PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER OLIVA: No it is not. MS. SEROWITZ: No. And Mr. Serota would really like to come with this type of a sign because he feels it would go along with the area and the shopping center. It's lower as far as height that's required. The only thing is that the letters of the tenants are a little bit larger than what is allowed in the code and the main drawer of the shopping center is King Kullen. So we wanted that a little bit bigger just for the drawer and then the tenants underneath. MEMBER SIMON: Is the -- I mean technically because you are with a brand-new sign -- MS. SEROWITZ: Yes. replacing the sign MEMBER SIMON: -- you cannot grandfather any exceptions that exist in the present sign. MS. SEROWITZ: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: However, that said, I'd be interested in commenting on, and I guess we can get this from the application, if the two signs were put up next to each other, in what way would the new one be bigger or more nonconforming than the old legal nonconforming PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 one? Do you know what I'm saying? If the new signs were to be better than the old signs -- MS. SEROWITZ: Most definitely. MEMBER SIMON: Okay and what we need to say a little bit more specifically than that to convince ourselves one way or the other. MS. SEROWITZ: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: So maybe your sign producer can help with that. MS. SEROWITZ: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning, state your name for the record. MR. BORSELLA: Hi, A1 Borsella, Alley Cat Signs, Middle Island, New York. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want a spelling on that? MR. BORSELLA: B-O-R-S-E-L-L-A. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. BORSELLA: You're welcome. It's just -- the sign is smaller overall square footage, if you measure King Kullen. The sign is about 40 square feet with the (inaudible) the attachments, the (inaudible) is another 12 square feet. So overall square footage of the sign that's there existing is larger than the Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 tl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 one we're presenting now. Details on the sign, I don't really know exactly what to say, but I know if the attorney doesn't explain enough -- but we were just planning to take the old sign down and move this one in 15 feet, put it in the same area, but of course a few feet in more, and we'll be using wood posts. This backer board, that one big board that's 5 by 8 and then we're going to mount plaques to that and then the top section is going to be routed and carved with gold leaf. It's fairly simple, but it would obviously be a lot better than what's there. MEMBER OLIVA: as you drive by? MR. BORSELLA: Well, I wouldn't say it would be easier to see because -- MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BORSELLA: King Kullen's sign MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BORSELLA: Would it be easier to see you get to see each tenant. I think it's going to be a lot less, but I think it's just PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 50 Why? Well no because I think is 40 square feet. Yeah, it's big. Yeah, so I don't know if 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of the point of having a nearer know he's been trying to get Southold - February 28, 2008 looking sign. I that done, but we 51 originally I think we tried for -- am I correct, to replace that luminated sign. This replaces a luminated. Yeah, so that wasn't working out, so then we went to this. Even the lighting on this that's not -- we know about the dark sky. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. BORSELLA: I think we were told about that. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. BORSELLA: We're not proposing any lighting here, also, at this point. What we just want to do is replace the sign with something newer and I don't think lighting has become an issue with it, but if it does I just want the Board to know that before anything happens with that we would approach with what we're planning to use, how we're going to do it and you know go from that point. It's just a sign that we're looking to get. MEMBER SIMON: Will you be prepared to add to the application simply diagrams to elaborate on what you've just said, meaning Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 some pictures comparative pictures, just simply to make it easier for us to write this (inaudible). MR. BORSELLA: sign. BOARD ASST.: Hopefully it looks We have pictures of the That was in the packet. like (inaudible) simple. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very simple. I mean let me -- I have some questions that really are within the jurisdiction of the Planning Board, but for the moment, what is the difference between the height of the existing sign and the height as you are proposing? MR. BORSELLA: The sign existing now 52 is - MEMBER WEISMAN: 32 inches tall. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. BORSELLA: 14 foot 6. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. BORSELLA: it from the ground. You're proposing another What is it now? The existing sign now is Really? From the -- if I measured I went by it this Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, morning. MEMBER WEISMAN: top. MR. the top. 2008 From the ground to the BORSELLA: Yeah. From the ground to I went by this morning and took some measurements. MEMBER SIMON: That's 174 inches. MR. BORSELLA: 14 is -- yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: You are also proposing in terms of the site plan to set back the sign 15 feet farther from the road than what is existing? MR. BORSELLA: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: And I don't know how many -- it doesn't really say how many feet towards the west, but it looks like it'll be about 10 to 12 feet? MR. BORSELLA: Yes. If you look at the survey, I think the survey is there and if you look it shows a little dotted line where the sign was. MEMBER WEISMAN: Uh-huh, right. MR. BORSELLA: It is over a little bit further west. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it is. You've PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 54 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 already addressed the issue of lighting. At the moment you have no plans for any kind of night lighting? MR. BORSELLA: No. MEMBER WEISMAN: Will this require site plan approval from the Planning Board? It probably would. MR. BORSELLA: I wouldn't know. MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't know. MS. SEROWITZ: The Planning Board, the young lady who was helping me research as far as covenants and restrictions, there weren't any for signs, but she did mention that she was going to ask the Board to see if Mr. Serota can beautify the shopping plaza a little bit more within the front shrubbery and we will approach Mr. Serota on it, if that's what's going to be the amendment to this. I'm quite sure he would -- MR. BORSELLA: MS. SEROWITZ: shrubbery? MR. BORSELLA: I spoke to him about that. You spoke to him about the Yeah, he said he would landscape the sign area, but he was (inaudible) about the stuff that was like a PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 blind that would go along the -- he did no sprinkler systems there and it wouldn't be able to get it out from the building out forward. It would be practically impossible - - well, nothing is impossible in the point of trenching from the building all the way over and then underneath the entrances and exits. MEMBER WEISMAN: And then continue. Alright, we've got a -- so we have a height reduction. MR. BORSELLA: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: The overall -- the existing proposed -- the existing square footage total of the sign, okay, that length, width, what is that? MR. BORSELLA: 120. MEMBER WEISMAN: 120 square feet? MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're proposed square footage on the new sign? MR. BORSELLA: Am I right at 40? MS. SORWITZ: 40. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's that much smaller? MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: Really? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. BORSELLA: Well, yeah. It's only 5 by 8. 8? MEMBER WEISMAN: The entire sign is 5 by MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's 15 by -- but then there's the height. MR. BORSELLA: It's {inaudible) here. This is 4, this is 2, this is 4. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. BORSELLA: So if you took the overall and went across, I imagine that's what you call square footage; MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. BORSELLA: right? Yeah. You could measure each sign and deduct, I guess. I think it's -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the problem is the way the code is written they're not looking at the total size -- MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- overall. Just for the record let me explain that the code requires no more than 3 square feet total per business. Okay? MR. BORSELLA: Um-hmm. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's for each of the five names. You've got one blank. You've got four tenants and one -- okay. Then the actual larger sign can be 20% of the total for the name of the business center. Alright, so based on that what you're proposing is the business name as proposed is 10 square feet while the code would allow you 5. Five permitted names at 3 square feet, right? MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: You have one name, which is King Kullen at 10 square feet. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, four of them are 5 square feet. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: And one is blank at the moment, which I presume would be the same thing. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: So the code is written in a way that requires you to meet these various very specific determinations about a hierarchy of size. Right and what you're really saying is that overall the sign will be PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 a lot nicer looking and the whole thing will be smaller. MR. BORSELLA: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MEMBER SIMON: I would think that part of the point is that the reason it doesn't fit the code perfectly is one the one hand you have the main shopping center and on the other hand you have a dominant business and those are two separate signs and that seems to be the source of the problem. The code doesn't simply allow for that kind of a shopping center sign and we're being asked to accommodate our rulings to take those particular facts into account. The information about square footage you're giving is highly relevant to helping us do that. MEMBER WEISMAN: So the bottom line is if you make this any smaller you can't tell at a distance -- you're unlikely to accomplish any (inaudible). MR. BORSELLA: 5 by 8 is a little bigger than a sheet of plywood. BOARD ASST.: One at a time. MR. BORSELLA: It's only about a little PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 bit bigger than a sheet of plywood. MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any further questions. MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just going around and around and I mean honestly you're going from about a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood, you're going to a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood from probably two 4 by 8 pieces of plywood it took all those -- you know you're reducing that sign to almost half. MEMBER WEISMAN: wanted to show. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's how I see it. Exactly. That's what I Now, I think, quite honestly, sir, you should figure that out for us. Okay, you should go a measure each one of those boxes, get the square footage and tell us what it is and then tell us what you're asking for and the reason why I say that, sir, is because even when we grant you this variance, it's a substantial variance from the code. MR. BORSELLA: Okay, well it's 73 square feet and we're asking for -- MEMBER DINIZIO: The existing now is 73 square feet? PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 60 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: And what is it that you're asking for? MR. BORSELLA: Is 40 square feet. MEMBER DINIZIO: 40 square feet. I think that that's all I need to know to determine that the sign is going to be smaller. It's going to conform more to what the Town has been urging businesses to do. There is a lady here that has probably about the same type of sign in front of her business right now; right Pat? Very similar, it has plaques on it. It has some little common thing -- so without that -- it's not going to be internally lit. MR. BORSELLA: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: Do you have objection to us saying that it will not be lit? MR. BORSELLA: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: But if we grant that now and you come back -- MR. BORSELLA: I know that. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's what I'm saying. MR. BORSELLA: Can -- the reason why I couldn't make that decision is because I'd PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 have to research the dark sky; I think it was a request from here. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Well, the dark sky thing is going to be something that you're going to have to comply with. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: But if we say right now as a condition during the course of deliberations it's not going to be lit, then dark sky doesn't even fall in it. It's going to be dark. MR. BORSELLA: Understood, but I can't -- MEMBER DINIZIO: So if you think in the future you want it to be lit, just tell us. MR. BORSELLA: Yes. Yes, I think in the future we're going -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, you're going to try to make it to the new standards that apply. MR. BORSELLA: But of course we're not doing anything unless it's brought to the Board. MEMBER DINIZIO: Of -- well, no. It may not have to come back and forth, sir, if we PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2008 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, don't say not lit. Okay? MR. BORSELLA: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, which I heard lighting was discussed. MR. BORSELLA: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: You basically said, no, we're not intending to light it now. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: But there is in the future a plan probably to light that cause you're open after dark. MR. BORSELLA: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: You would like to have that thing lit, I'm sure. MR. BORSELLA: you have hours that with, right? MEMBER DINIZIO: code. MR. BORSELLA: MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, but I'm sure that it needs to be complied You have to meet the Right. That's not our purview, we're really looking to, in my opinion, beautify a sign here that when it was put in it was the standard size that was put on the main 62 road, and make it more conforming to the Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, signs we have along the main road now, is wood, you know -- MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. out -- MEMBER DINIZIO: getting bogged down 63 2008 which When I was riding Okay, I think we're just in this. I mean that sign is twice the size of this sign and I think that's all you really needed to say. MR. BORSELLA: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I'm done. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm a little confused on the lighting aspect and that is are we going to restrict him with the lighting to the after -- MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just told him to say if he wanted to light that sign so we'd have it on the record. BOARD ASST.: I believe the code allows him lighting here. MEMBER WEISMAN: It does. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So we're -- MEMBER OLIVA: I don't have any problem. I think it would be a great improvement. MR. BORSELLA: Thank you. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think that clears up the issue, I was going to ask the question why it's 40 inches off the ground, but I can see that there's probably the possibility of being able to see through it and that may be the reason why. Is that the reason why? MR. BORSELLA: That is because when I drove by just this morning too, when you look out the entrance to the bank, the exit, it's just better visibility. That's what I was looking for. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6131 - Greg and Karmen Dadourian MEMBER OLIVA: "Request for Variances under: {1) Section 280-124, and (2) Section 280-15, both based on the Building Inspector's December 28, 2007 Notice of Disapproval Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 concerning the location off a new dwelling at less than 40 feet from the code-required minimum front yard setback, and for a swimming pool located in a side yard rather than the code-required front yard or rear yard for this waterfront parcel, located at 695 Petty's Drive at Long Island Sound, Orient; CTM 14-2- 23." MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. I have Mrs. Dadourian here, Karmen Dadourian. So if you have any questions I can certainly refer to her. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And you are Pat Moore. MRS. MOORE: I'm Pat Moore, sorry. MEMBER OLIVA: Pleasure to see you again, Pat. MRS. MOORE: Yes pleasure to see you. You get to see me a lot today. What prompted our placement -- this is a new house on this property in Petty's Drive and when we started we were really hoping that the 35-foot front yard setback could be considered an average setback and we wouldn't need to come to this Board for a variance, but PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 I believe one of the houses within 300 feet threw us off with the numbers. Our goal here was to try to meet the LWRP. That is usually if we can we try to accommodate that. So when we placed the house and we established the 100 feet from the top of the bluff, which in this case is a little nebulous because there's really no bluff here. We just took it as a more conservative approach and we marked 100 feet from the top of that small little incline. We pushed the house to the 35 feet. It is in-line with both houses on either side. This is a relatively well established neighborhood with many of the homes there are at 35 feet because they were built under the code where 35 feet was permissible. So it seemed to us that it was a better plan to come before this Board for a variance of 35 feet in-line with both houses on either side, than it was to ask the Trustees to encroach into the 100 feet. So that's why we're here with respect to that variance. The pool, similarly, we certainly could have asked the Trustees to get a permit for the pool in the rear yard, but again that Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, would be in contravention of the LWRP. have tried to create a plan that is as 67 2008 So we conforming to the environmental policies, but in doing so we have to come before this Board for a variance. I did ask my client about connecting the pool cause that issue did come up with respect to decking to the house, but they are really -- the weather really is a factor here and the wood decking does get -- does deteriorate faster. So they really want patio or some kind of pavers and that would not allow -- that doesn't meet the criteria of meeting the -- connecting the house to the accessory structure. So given their preference again, we came before this Board as a preference to designing something that really is not their dream home. I'd be happy to answer any questions. We do have significant limitations cause there's no public water here so our placement of the sanitary also has a great deal to do with where we place the house and the sanitary, because we are surrounded by two existing homes whose sanitary are actually shown here the house to the west has its sanitary by the Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 ZBA Town of water, but respect to Southold - February 28, 2008 that creates a setback issue with our well and the house to the east has their sanitary very close to our property line. So as you know the setbacks have to meet 150 feet and as it is we will need to get a variance for the distance. We don't think it's going to be a problem because -- and we had Joe Fischetti do the engineering report -- we are not really -- we're consistent with Health Department standards, but we do need a technical variance because of the setbacks, but again that also impacts our placement of the house, the placement of the pool, because our sanitary has to be on the seaward side of the house. Again, that has gotten approval from the Trustees and the DEC has considered this non-jurisdiction. So we are -- really, you're the last phase of our process. MEMBER OLIVA: I'm very happy to see that you're at least 100 back. Now, I just wanted to give you a brief history of this whole area here. This whole area has eroded back I think in the last 20-25 year about 100 feet. You really have no bluff whatsoever there, really. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: No, there isn't. MEMBER OLIVA: I have asked the office to send a letter to Soil and Water because they have very often come back with very specific recommendations that I feel that the applicant should take very seriously because it is so iow and I can just look from where it is that just recently it's gone back I would say 20-25 feet, but it makes it so iow and being that he's so iow and the direction of those northeast winds it's really a very serious thing to (inaudible). I mean, it really is. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, Soil and Water sometimes does come back with very positive (inaudible}. MEMBER OLIVA: To me it's fine for the variance to the front of 35 feet. The further back you are away from that area is best for the applicant, but I would like to say that we will keep this open until I receive or we receive a letter from the Soil and Water people and see what their recommendations are and see if the -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to leave it open or do you want to leave it Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 subject to that? MEMBER OLIVA: No, I want to leave it open because I think we'd like to discuss that with the applicant because I just know, Pat, there used to be clay cliffs there where my kids used to slide down and there are no clay cliffs. MRS. MOORE: Maybe that's why there're not there. Sliding down clay cliffs is not advisable. MEMBER OLIVA: Then there's a big house up on the bluff there to the west and Larry Tuthill had put in a bulkhead like in the middle of the beach. That bulkhead is now right smack against the bluff and we could even see -- Linda just showed me if you look at the -- MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER OLIVA: -- County Tax Map you can see how far it's back, too. MRS. MOORE: gone back and that's a while I don't see that as a problem because as I said we have the Health Department that we're still waiting for, we'll be getting a variance from them. So it's not PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 ZBA Town of that we're permit. I Southold - February 28, 2008 imminently getting a building know that the Health Department will be looking for the approval from the Town, but usually Soil and Water is pretty quick. MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, they are and as I said they have really been very helpful in many cases -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: -- and I'm concerned, not about variances, but I'm concerned about the applicants' well being and protecting his house. MEMBER SIMON: I would take Ruth's statement as a motion to hold this for adjournment until we get the -- MRS. MOORE: That's not a problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we will. MRS. MOORE: We're not building it immediately so we just need to know that there's really no concern or issues with respect to our house and the pool because that really is a significant issue with respect to the Health Department. MEMBER OLIVA: How large is the pool PuglieseCou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 again? MRS. MOORE: It's 16 by 40. MEMBER OLIVA: That's pretty big. It's a big pool, that could be cut back a bit. I wish -- I saw that you had the house staked out. I wish the pool had been staked out. MRS. MOORE: It is. Well, we had -- MEMBER OLIVA: It fell down, maybe it fell down. MRS. MOORE: Maybe, it's possible. I have Nate's stakes or (inaudible) that he placed. He put the ones that were closest to the water because the Trustees were just really looking to the placement of the setbacks -- MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MRS. MOORE: -- to the bluff. We do have a 15-setback from the property line on the accessory structure and we are actually complying with principle structure setbacks. So with respect to the size of the pool it's, I guess, it's subjective whether you think it's too big or not, but we are meeting principle setback structures in this instance. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER OLIVA: Is this going to be a liner pool or gunite? MRS. MOORE: I don't know how -- Liner? MRS. DADOURIAN: Gunite. MRS. MOORE: Oh, gunite. Thank you. Okay. 73 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only other issue was the noise sensitive -- MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have the pool equipment shown on this map. Nate did provide it and there's no problem with providing noise abatement construction around the box. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we will discuss with you at the hearing before it progresses the possibility of a landscape plan if one is so needed. MRS. MOORE: I don't think that's a problem. You're planning to landscape, yeah, anyway. Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: This is better than the last one you brought us -- MRS. MOORE: Well, it's a larger piece of property, certainly. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we have actually the Trustees, may be this addresses one of your PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER DINIZIO: -- because, you know, you're actually meeting your setbacks. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Basically you're here just because it happens to be in a location that the Town doesn't allow accessory structures. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: Fortunately for you, you could attach this thing somehow if you needed to and not even be before us for the pool. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: You still would have to have the house -- the house has a problem, but I guess that's neither here nor there. I don't quite understand why the Board is requiring that you do anything to that bluff because this evidently all the agencies that deal with the bluff have said that it's not a problem to put this pool in that area. MRS. MOORE: Well -- MEMBER DINIZIO: You're 100 feet away and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 concerns, they asked for a non-disturbance area which is adjacent to that bluff -- MEMBER OLIVA: That's right. MRS. MOORE: So we actually will have in the Trustees permit an area, I have to look at my notes, I believe it's a 10-foot non- disturbance area with just obviously a walkway, you know, pathway to get to the beach. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I think that's in our file. MRS. MOORE: Did I -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I thought I read it. MRS. MOORE: I may have written it to you because it was after the meeting, but I'm still waiting for the actual physical permit and as soon as I get it I will forward it to you. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, cause I mean, again, I'm thinking to myself whether or not this pool is there doesn't make much difference in the course of our laws concerning -- you're 100 feet away, well within the distance the Town says is safe. MRS. MOORE: Well, I leave it to the Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 majority of the Board. MEMBER DINIZIO: Just a connnent. Just a comment, to me it seems a little out of our jurisdiction I would say. So the 40 feet from the front yard, you're saying you thought you kind of met that with the average setback? MRS. MOORE: We thought -- I actually thought I had met it because since I had both houses, but then I believe there is a house to the west that is much deeper, they built long ago and so they built very close to the water and that threw our average setback calculations off and it meant that I had to come before this Board. So be it, here I am. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. So it was a neighbor who was beyond -- MRS. MOORE: No, it was within the 300, yeah, within the 300 feet. MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, that's all I have. This is a very thoughtful and responsible site plan, in my opinion, both in terms of sanitary and septic, water. You've indicated drywells for both the house and the pool. You've met the LWRP and Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 everything is on here that we need. You've included the houses on either side with their 35-foot setbacks. So I think this is -- I have no issue with anything on this plan. One question, however, to explore would be since the issue is the structure in the side yard, which is the only reasonable place to put a pool, you could reduce it somewhat in terms of nonconformity if 35 rather than 40 feet it less in the side yard. MEMBER DINIZIO: No. the pool was maybe would just place it Leslie, it's not a question of reducing anything. It's a question of placement. If they're going to put it in the side yard, that's why they're here. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER DINIZIO: side yard setback. MEMBER WEISMAN: placement in -- oh, I don't -- They're not here for a Not a setback, but its I see what you're saying. Side yard is side yard and it doesn't matter what amount in the side yard? MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Even if they were -- as a shed, for example the size of the shed is PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 78 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 irrelevant, it's the fact that its placement is in the side yard. BOARD ASST.: The whole pool will need variance because of its placement in the side yard. MEMBER WEISMAN: Ail I'm trying to suggest is that if the length was slightly less it would be slightly less in the side yard. MRS. MOORE: A lesser structure in the side yard. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, that's all I'm saying. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: I really don't have an issue with any of this, but I propose that because occasionally it's worth exploring, you know, what kinds of compromises or amendments might be offered; however, I'm not adamant about it. I just wanted to know whether or not it was feasible to make it say 35 by 16 rather than 40 by 16. MRS. MOORE: I defer to my client. MS. DADOURIAN: We would prefer to keep it at that size. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: You have to put it on the record. Sorry, there's a transcript so they need to hear your name. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: your name for the record, Would you state please? MRS. DADOURIAN: Karmen Dadourian. We would prefer to keep it at that size, if at all possible for meeting all the requirements, but if we have to then we'll reduce it. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Fair enough. That's all. MEMBER SIMON: In general, I would defer questions I might have until after we get the report from Soil and Water and so forth, but just regarding the point about the side yard pool, we certainly have the power, whether we exercise it or not, to condition the approval of something in the side yard on it being of a different size. That's certainly within our domain. Whether we recommend that or not is an answer to it's only a side yard issue, no, because we can condition the side yard approval, if we decided to do so. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8O ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: I think you have within your power to discuss the type size of it. MEMBER SIMON: MRS. MOORE: of structure, the Right, yes. We agree. But I understand what Jim is saying that regardless of its size we'd still need the same variance. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, right. MEMBER SIMON: Yes. MRS. MOORE: So is it significant enough that the size warrants the change and that I let you deliberate on. MEMBER SIMON: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. No, I just wanted it raised in this hearing as something to discuss, but I'm not suggesting that I have any conclusions about -- being passionate about it being reduced in size. It's important for the record that point be brought up in case it comes up in deliberations. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no further questions at this time. I will ask if anybody would like to speak for or against this application in the audience. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Yes, ma'am. Please come up and use the mike, state your name, MS. DEMETRIADES: Demetriades. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: spell Demetriades for the if you would. I'm Dino and Despina Do you want to record? MS. DEMETRIADES: D-E-M-E-T-R-I-A-D-E-S. We are the owners of the house next on the left side. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so standing-- MRS. DEMETRIADES: Where the pool will be. -- in front of the this vacant lot DEMETRIADES: We're by the pool CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: house, standing in front of you are on the left side? MRS. side. MRS. MOORE: West side. MRS. DEMETRIADES: The proposed pool, west side. Okay. Now, first the site of the location of the proposed pool is unacceptable to us. As you could see the plan that they have the house all the activities will be on my side, on our side. Everything, the pool, they have PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 the machinery, which make a lot of noise and everything. I don't know -- when we built the house we had to go 35 the property line. I something different. feet from the house to don't see why this is It's only 15 feet from my line to the proposed side of the pool. Now, my next door neighbor when they build the house from the right side they came here and they had to change the house so many times so they could put the pool by the rear, which would be by the water. Now, they could do the same thing. They could amend, they could change the plan of the house and put the pool by the water, it could be done. Now, because of the wooden deck it rear, by the they said that will not be proper or whatever. We have wooden deck, which faces the ocean for 20 years. We are there 20 years. There's nothing wrong with the wood. We have -- well I don't know what kind of wood we have, but I think we have put treated wood and it's still there and it's holding up right. The other side also they have the same thing and they have the pool very close to the house. I could see they PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 could do the same thing here, too. So the location of the proposed pool is unacceptable to us. It will be on top of us. As you could see that side of my house has the kitchen, the dinette and the dining room. So all of those faces them. Now, they're going to be on top of us and all the noise of the machinery and everything. It's not fair, it's not really fair. It could be done differently. They could change it, they could do other things. Let me see, I wrote everything down cause this is important to us. Very important. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MRS. DEMETRIADES: I did say all the activities will be done there. They have no windows facing me. They do have a lot of windows and everything facing the water. That's exactly why everybody buys this kind of expensive properties to have the view of the water. They do have a lot of windows, but they have no on my side and on the other side. I don't know why, but like I said the pool is unacceptable in that -- we do want to have very good relations with the Dadourians, we PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 really do, the house pool. ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 but they have to change the plan and the pool, the location of the So I think I have -- 84 of CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just ask you a question. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything that would make you feel better if the pool were so granted in that location as to some sort of dense screening between you and your neighbors? MRS. DEMETRIADES: No, not exactly no. Unless -- why can't they put the pool in the rear by the water? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Because there is a 100-foot setback situation that is required by code. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Okay, fine, but like you said the variance was given to the other house on the other side. They have a lot less property. They had to move the house longer this way to accommodate for the pool. That pool was -- that house was built after ours so I know what they had to change the plan of the PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 house many times so that they could put the pool where it is now. They could do the same thing and this property is a lot longer. They could make the house maybe wider and come up 35 feet to the street and then they have enough room to make the pool closer to the house with a wooden deck or whatever there's nothing wrong with that because we are there 20 years and the deck is -- and it's all -- they have nothing that does not block the air or the windows from the ocean, from the water. So they could do that. They could do that very nicely. Besides they have to put some kind of a fence there, right? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Now, that's not fair for us because if they put a fence or maybe trees they're going to block all my view and that's what I'm paying for high taxes and I have been there for 20 years. That's not fair if it would block all that away from us. Don't you think so? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question I have is did you stakes were placed there? PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTran$criptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you see the stakes that are presently placed on the property? MRS. DEMETRIADES: The stakes? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, the stakes the orange stakes that are placed there. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yeah, it's next to me. It's right there. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to let the attorney, I'm not here to defend this particular application. I'm just telling you that in the past and, I'm not speaking for the Board, I understand your situation. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Definitely. But from an environmental standpoint, we would much rather see the pool in its present location, which is a conforming location except for the side yard. Alright, that doesn't mean it can't be modified in some way or some form. MRS. DEMETRIADES: What about -- oh, I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. DEMETRIADES: What about if they move the pool all the way to the street on the same side. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. MRS. DEMETRIADES: They could do that, okay, alter the house so this way it's not going to be on top of me all the activities of the pool and everything. Ail I have to see out of my windows, all I could see is them and the pool. It's not fair. It's not fair at all. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That is the reason why we were investigating the possibility of either making it smaller -- we have not discussed the moving of the location of the pool, at this time, and that's the reason why you're here. Okay. MRS. DEMETRIADES: I'm sorry for my -- I'm very much concerned. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're doing very well to be honest with you. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Excuse me? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: doing very well. MRS. DEMETRIADES: I think you're Thank you. Pugliese Court Repo~ing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER DINIZIO: I would like to comment to you for just a second. We were talking about the wooden deck. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, you in your comments I assume would encourage them to build a wooden deck. We were speaking of a wooden deck to allow the pool to stay there as a right because if they attach that pool to the house then they don't even need to be here. So -- MRS. DEMETRIADES: They don't need to be what? MEMBER DINIZIO: They don't need a variance if they attach the pool to the house. Okay? So if they build a wooden deck it's detrimental to you. I just wanted to point that out to you, that's not something that you really want. Okay, because it can stay right where it is and they don't need a variance and you don't get to ask for anything, such as the Chairman was asking for screening. If you'd like to have screening or maybe reposition the pool a little bit. So I think that if you want to take the pool out of your -- the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 89 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 wooden deck out of your argument it's not -- it would not work to your advantage. MRS. DEMETRIADES: No, no. I don't care about the wood, but somebody I think you have mentioned or somebody said Mrs. Moore she said that because of the wooden deck they cannot put the pool over here. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. MRS. DEMETRIADES: This is why -- no, no. I don't care what they do with a patio. Ail I'm concerned is pool, that's all. amend it to do a the location of the proposed You know, and they could lot of things. Make the house wider, shorter so this way they have enough room for up front -- er, I keep saying front because that's when I see the water I say that's front. The house next to them that's where they have it and that property is a lot shorter. I don't think it's any wider. It's shorter and this property is a lot longer. Okay? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. Sir, state your name for the record. MR. DEMETRIADES: My name is Dino PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 90 ZBA Town of Southold Demetriades. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: February 28, 2008 How do you do? MR. DEMETRIADES: My wife spelled the name before. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MR. DEMETRIADES: Please, ladies and gentlemen I would like to have a person to understand my meaning of this whatever I will say. I have many reasons to say no way I accept the swimming pool next to my kitchen. In 15 feet away from my kitchen not 35, I wouldn't have any objection. 15 feet. My kitchen is most important room in my house. I sit there, I eat there, I read there. I spend all my day in my kitchen. Now to begin with, to give you some examples, please have a little patience with me, I get this property 40 years ago for two reasons only, to have privacy and to breathe clear air from the sea. That's two reasons I bought this property and I think for the same thing somebody else is going to buy the same property. Now if the Town going to permit to build PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, the swimming pool 15 feet away from my kitchen, no longer than this, 15 feet, 91 2008 I think it's unacceptable. It takes away my privacy and takes away my fresh air from the sea and I have to breathe the chemical of the swimming pool, the chlorine and so on, because it's next to my kitchen. I'll have to sit there to have lunch, to have dinner, to have guests, to have (inaudible). Also, reduce the price of my property. You might ask me why, because if anybody comes there to buy my property he's going to buy my property for two reasons what I bought the property for the privacy and for the fresh air. He's not going of the property goes fair. to have that and my value down. I don't think it's I want to have little more personal ladies and gentlemen why -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Excuse me. Would someone close the door, we're having trouble hearing? Thank you very much. MR. DEMETRIADES: I want to show to you the real life, but is impossible. I want to invite all of you after the swimming pool is PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 ZBA Town of Southold - going to be built there and I with that the way you have it February 28, 2008 have to live and then you're going to see the difference how I feel. I would like to visualize one minute and be with me please. I will invite all of you, my friends, as usually all the time for my dinner. It's going to be there after my wife is going to cook the delicious meal and set the table there and it's ready to all of us to enjoy I will call my friends, which you will be there, too, to make a prayer. Is that the right thing to do? Then at the same time I'm saying the prayer, I'm trying to pray, next door the people naked of course they're not swimming with clothes on. You know, they're going to jump in and out of the pool, they're going to say jokes, they're going to scream, they're going to talk loud. What I'm supposed to do, ladies and gentlemen, to tell them to shut up? I will make the pray right now or I want to eat, of course not. I can't do that. This way they don't have privacy, I don't have privacy. Please think about whatever I say and ( PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - inaudible). Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 93 February 28, 2008 Thank you. Yes, in the back please. Come up and use the mike and state your name for the record. MS. DROEGE: BOARD ASST.: record. MS. DROEGE: Madelyn Droege. Spell your name for the D-R-O-E-G-E. I heard all the arguments and I would only object if the pool is moved over to my side. I would be saying the same things she said, so it would - - I just want to know that if you have considerations of moving the pool I kind of agree with them it could go in the front, what we call the front, which is the ocean side. For her, I feel that it would be a good idea, but not if it was to go by my side. So I just want to state that because we're here now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER SIMON: I think that one of the purposes of this hearing is being served by hearing the neighbors on this. There are reasons why the code prohibits pools on the PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 side and we tend to grant these things unless there are significant objections to it. So in this particular case we have a clear slate because the house has not yet been built and so I think these comments would certainly need to be taken into account in trying to have another look -- inviting the applicant to have another look at the whole design because of the kind of concerns which may very well have been put into the code when it was written about side pools have been raised by the neighbors and I think, without getting into the arguments on this, I think it's highly relevant and I think we will take all these things very seriously. MS. DROEGE: One more thing, if she could maybe make the house smaller, people do that, like she said. The house I'm in was changed so many times to accommodate the pool. If the pool was that important to her, then the house should be smaller, maybe that would give her more room in the front. That's my only suggestion. I still, even though I'm not on her side, I understand what she -- I wouldn't want it to be me in her spot. The whole idea Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 of activity in the pool and a fence and there's no guarantee of landscaping and losing the privacy. I would just say I wouldn't want the pool moved to the other side of the house. MEMBER WEISMAN: May I make a comment? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pat Moore is -- MRS. MOORE: Did you want to comment? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I mean I do want to comment actually to both neighbors, briefly, to reiterate again that all testimony is very carefully weighed in all public hearings and that's why we have them. But, also to point out two things, one is that with reference to the distance from your kitchen to the pool, your house itself is approximately 30-plus feet from the property, your own property line. Plus the 15, that would locate that pool about 45 feet away from your kitchen, not 15, but see where your house property relative to about 45 feet. If you is located on your that line, just so that you're clear sometimes people have trouble reading these drawings. That's just to clarify that point, I'm not saying one thing or another. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 The other comment I want to make to the other neighbor is that we can guarantee landscaping if we choose to do so. We can specify, particularly how noise abatement should take place, so that you are not inconvenienced by any noise from the pump or the pool. We can tell them they have to do that. We can also require landscaping that creates not only a noise buffer but a visual buffer for privacy, you know, to make sure that neighbors stay good neighbors because they have what they enjoy, which is their privacy. So all of those things are possible, the Board here has jurisdiction over conditioning variances when they're granted to make sure that any bad effects on anybody else is reduced substantially as much as we possibly I simply wanted to, you know, let you can. So MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yeah, I just want to clarify cause you said okay from my property line to where the pool would be is only 15. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's correct. MRS. DEMETRIADES: But shouldn't it be 35 Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold feet? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, 97 February 28, 2008 the law requires a minimum side yard of -- one side yard to be at least 15 feet wide and they meet the law. MRS. DEMETRIADES: I guess it has changed cause then we build the house we had to go 35. MEMBER WEISMAN: MRS. DEMETRIADES: MEMBER WEISMAN: No. That's side yard. That's front, okay. That's from the street not the side. They are actually legal in terms of where -- what that setback from the property line is. That's the setback that houses would have to meet. Okay? So they could choose to build the whole house 15 feet from your property -- their property line, plus whatever you have on your side yard, which is 30-plus feet. Okay, so you understand why the law allows them to do and what we're trying to do, which is to make sure that we get the happiest situation possible for all parties concerned. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, Leslie. Pat what would you like to tell us? MRS. MOORE: Yes, well thank you Leslie for pointing those two things out. You've PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 98 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 essentially raised two of the issues that I wanted to point out to the neighbor as well as put on the record for the Board. We certainly can provide you, if you'd like, a landscape plan if that would make -- you know, we can close the hearing and just submit a landscape plan to you before the decision if that's something you would like, but certainly they will -- they have adequate room, they intend to landscape and I have -- I heard two different opinions from the neighbor which is yes you want to landscape for noise, but we don't want to block their waterfront views. So a fence for a pool only has to be four feet in height, so we can certainly talk to them in the hallway and see if there's a preference that they would like. There's no - - we're really, as you said it's a clean slate. We can design a plan that plants have to be salt tolerant. There's a lot of issues here because I think from your inspection you would notice that the neighbor Mrs. -- Mr. and Mrs. Demetriades don't have any shrubbery, it's all a lawn and it -- and I don't know if that was intentional or is it because the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 99 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 plants just don't survive in -- along that. We unfortunately have the limitations that are applicable today in the code, which are non-disturbance buffers, LWRP issues, drainage. That kind of thing so we have tried to implement all relevant regulations with this plan and I think you recognized that with prior comments, previously. I would also, in addition to the 15-foot setback to the property line and about 30-35 foot setback to their house, I would also point out that from the survey it would appear that our pool is actually closest to their garage rather than their kitchen. If we were to do what my client would love because certainly that was their preference, to put a pool on the waterfront side of the house it would actually put the pool more in line with their living area and their rear deck. So the proposed location here is you will see that there is a driveway and a garage that we are going to want to screen from more importantly than they would want to screen from us. So that is another feature that we are trying to address. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 I think everything has been pretty much discussed here. Unless there's something else that -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any alternate location that you would -- MRS. MOORE: Really, no. We did really look at this very carefully. As I said, the sanitary is on the east side and that is very specific because of the development of the neighboring properties and their wells and their sanitary locations. We are not trying to go beyond 100 feet from the top of the bank because of certainly environmental issues and, as you said Ms. Oliva, that there are erosion issues that are on the Sound and we are sensitive to those as well, and the 35-foot from the front which is consistent with it. So I think we discussed all our reasoning for placement of the house here and the house is not -- I mean it is proportionate to the property. We are only with the pool at 16% lot coverage and that's excluding all area that is seaward of the coastal erosion. So we are really under developing this property and to ask the applicant to do Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 anything more -- we really did provide what we thought was the most thorough, thought through plan. I think they will promise they won't swim naked when they're home. So aside from that I don't know how else to satisfy. We have provided noise dampening with respect to the only really noisy feature of the pool, the pump, and that, you know, a pool is a pool and you do have the sound and the wind from the Sound that, for the most part, it does dampen a lot of the noise for waterfront homeowners in general. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a 20 by 15- foot setback, is that not the case on this application? There's no possibility of moving the house over five feet closer? MRS. MOORE: We are very close to the house as it is. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're at 27 feet on the northeast side. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I mean realistically really you're hurting the applicant. Believe me that they would -- I think the issue would be reverse, Mrs. Droege would object obviously if it was on the opposite side, if it was even Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, possible, sanitary, 2008 and it isn't because of our but we could have put the house 102 right to the 15-foot and that when you compare the activity of the house and the decking and so on and so forth, it's much more intrusive than an accessory structure. So we are maintaining the setbacks of a principle structure and it is a weekend home right now for them. So really it is not a heavily used property. MRS. DEMETRIADES: Excuse me. I would like to have the house closer to me than have the pool and they could do a lot of things. They could move the pool all the way to the street way as possible or make the pool by the water because if it could be done, it could be done like I said the next door neighbor did it. Okay? MRS. MOORE: The next door -- I don't know which neighbor you're talking -- oh, the house that is on the other side of us, actually I have a survey that is -- I thought I submitted it as part of a plan before. That is tax lot number 24 and they show that a pool is in a triangular distance, but they are only Pugliese Cou~ RepoSing and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - 60 feet to the top of the bank. is actually in their waterfront 103 February 28, 2008 So the pool side. So we are trying to avoid that circumstance and if you would need it, I can submit it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we see it? MRS. MOORE: I'll just get a copy from (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Alright, what we're going to do is -- MEMBER DINIZIO: of questions. I know this is occurred to me that Gerry, I have a couple dragging on. It just this lady is asking you if you would move the pool forward. MRS. MOORE: Towards the street. MEMBER DINIZIO: Towards the street in the side yard. Is there any reason why you couldn't do that? MRS. MOORE: Yeah, more in the side yard. I think that when you're dealing with the sun and the light and so on, it's not really the greatest spot to put a pool right directly in your side yard because I was trying to imagine where the sun is coming up east to west and so on and the south side, I think because of the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 placement of the house and its -- you're going to end up with shading of the pool. It's just not -- I mean it really doesn't make sense and it really -- you're penalizing an applicant. As you said, if we were to attach this thing to decking we wouldn't have their comments to consider and I think we're trying everything to reasonable with respect to landscaping, noise abatement and things like that. I don't want to see my client penalized for some really, relatively, I think, unreasonable expectations or concerns that have been expressed so far. That's my -- you know, obviously they're very important issues and I know you'll consider them, but I think we're addressing them in a better way than to try to shove the pool into a side yard and where we are clearly 100 feet back from the top of the bank so we're meeting the environmental issues, which are primary here. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, the environmental issues are what's pushing this application to US. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand that and we PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 can grant some relief to that, too. So I mean I would -- MRS. MOORE: I mean I would have to go back to the Trustees and get a permit. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's what I want to ask you, is the footprint of this house set in stone? Is this footprint of this house, is that approved by any other Board of this Town? MRS. MOORE: Yes. Oh yes. Well, the Trustees have approved the pool and the house and the sanitary. The Health Department is reviewing the location of the sanitary, so therefore the house is related to where that sanitary is, that's pending. We're waiting just to get on the Board of Review and what the Board of Review sometimes does is a screening when you're really only not complying with the technical requirements, but everything else in an improved subdivision is compliant. DEC has our application pending and we don't suspect there will be any problem. We may have just gotten a letter of non- jurisdiction just came in this week, as a matter of fact. Who's left? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER DINIZIO: So what I was saying if you were to add onto that side of the house all the way to the 15 foot. You know, put two story building there -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, expand the house in that direction? Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, is that a possibility for you to do now at this time? MRS. MOORE: Oh, I think I would have to go back. MEMBER DINIZIO: You do? MRS. MOORE: Well, the Trustees -- I don't know, I -- hard to tell if the Building Department would want me to go over it with the Trustees. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, just because you're increasing the square footage or what's the -- MRS. MOORE: Because they're concerned with disturbed areas as well and we may have some disturbances there within the 100 feet. We don't have structures within 100 feet so I think I guess my question is what would you want me to do here -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I don't want you PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 to do anything. I'm looking more for a reason why -- if this is set in stone and it seems to me like you've been to a lot of -- MRS. MOORE: It's not built. MEMBER DINIZIO: But you've been through a lot of the process already. MRS. MOORE: Yes, application. MEMBER DINIZIO: you're our last Right, like you've mitigated a lot other Boards and based on that -- MRS. MOORE: of their -- all already. right. It looks of problems before Yes, we've incorporated all of the mitigation measures MEMBER DINIZIO: So making the house narrower and longer would cause you probably to go back to these other agencies for whatever approvals would be necessary and still -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- you're trying to comply with our environmental -- MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: The laws that we have the books about 100-foot setbacks and -- PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I need. I just wanted to kind of get that on the record so that, you know, this is much more than just taking a pool and pushing it around. MRS. MOORE: No, (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: clarify. A point was I don't have the One quick question to raised about the possibility of simply citing the house slightly farther towards -- closer towards the property line on the east side, which is now set at 20.7 feet. There's a drywell there but that can be relocated. The question I want to ask, which would, of course, then potentially increase the 15 feet where the pool is to say 20 feet, alright? There's a proposed driveway there, is that where the garage -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- is MRS. MOORE: Yes. The facing the side rather than Alright, which means that the is necessary for back up. MRS. MOORE: Yes. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 going to be? garage is actually the front. 20-foot setback 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - MEMBER WEISMAN: hear. Thank you. 109 February 28, 2008 That's all I wanted to CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What we're going to do is adjourn this hearing until 1:35 on April 24th pending the receipt of the Soil and Water evaluation by Suffolk County and we will -- I will go out and re-inspect and I will go out and take everybody's thoughts, as well as I'm sure, all my fellow board members -- BOARD ASST.: Pat had offered to give a landscape plan. MRS. MOORE: Yes, would you like a landscape plan? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please. We'd like a landscape plan. MRS. MOORE: That's not a problem. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you. Alright, so pending those two issues -- not issues, but supporting documents one from our side and their side. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 HEARING #6123 - Jennifer and David Collins MEMBER OLIVA: "Request for Variances under Sections 280-122A, 280-124, and ZBA Code Interpretation #5039 (Walz Application), based on the Building Inspector's December 23, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed alterations to the existing dwelling, which new construction constitutes an increase in the degree of nonconformity with the front yard setback at less than a minimum of 40 feet, at 6685 Oregon Road, 1-6." Is there someone here to Yes, sir? MR. SULLIVAN: Cutchogue; CTM 95- speak to this? I'm Jennifer's father. I tried to call someone else. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We just need to talk to you one second come down. Just state your name for the record, if you would. MR. SULLIVAN: Jeffrey Sullivan. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do, sir? MEMBER OLIVA: I think that basically all it is is enclosing that little partition in PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - the middle of your house. MR. SULLIVAN: MEMBER OLIVA: MR. SULLIVAN: February 28, 2008 That's it. That's it. That's it. of an alcove and the alcove There's is going to disappear. MEMBER OLIVA: MR. SULLIVAN: a sort with a window. That's my understanding. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're standing there is there anyone on the Board that would like to discuss that with this gentleman? MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very clear. MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER SIMON: NO. I have no questions. It's fine. No questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: would like to speak either application? Seeing no hands, coming, sir. Is there anyone who for or against this we appreciate you MR. SULLIVAN: Well where are they going Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 111 Right, I have the picture. It's going to be a wall 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 to put the pool? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You had to bring that up? Hearing no further comment, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING %6122 - Marjorie Dunn MEMBER WEISMAN: "Location of Property: 300 Fay Court and Camp Mineola Road, Mattituck; CTM 123-5-11. The applicant is requesting the following Variances: (A) under Sections 280-124 and 280-122 based on ZBA Code Interpretation #5029 (Walz Application) and the Building Inspector's amended January 8, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed additions and alterations to the existing building. The new construction will exceed the code limitation of 20% lot coverage, and with a proposed reduction in the front yard setback will be an increase in the degree of front yard nonconformity (currently 18.7 feet average); Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 (B) to remove 10/23/1969 ZBA Condition under Variance %1293 (former owner Herman Pocher) concerning front, rear and side yard setback variances." Okay, so you're proposing a lot coverage of 27.5% when the code permits 20% and you want to maintain an existing setback, 18.7 113 which is feet. MRS. MOORE: No, 9.7. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, that's the average. You're (inaudible) is within 300 feet is 18.7, but you want to continue -- that's on the Fay Court side. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: 9 foot 6 inches, maintaining it to add a second floor to that, which is what Walz is -- MRS. MOORE: Exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, go ahead. Carry on. MRS. MOORE: Carry on? Okay. The -- again, I always start with trying to see what variances we might need and whether or not any are -- actually need to be before this Board. What I did was Fay Court - Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town - the house do two houses the survey it on the survey. 114 of Southold - February 28, 2008 right now faces Fay Court and so down to the south. If you have kind of has all the information So I'd like to work off of that, it gives you a better understanding of the development of the property. My understanding of front yard setback or average front yard setback is that you take within 300 feet the principle structure that also faces the front yard. In this instance we have a property that has two streets and every property along this area has come before this Board for one variance or another because of the uniqueness of having two streets, one on either side, and some three. Mazur to the north I came in for a variance because we ended up with three street sides. The interesting thing is that the code speaks in terms of front yard setback coming up with an average setback and I did actually have 9.2 or 9.6 the existing setback being the average of those houses that use Fay Court as the front yard and I thought, great, I don't have to come before this Board with respect to that variance, but as it turns out the Building PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Department says or interprets that when you're coming up with an average setback that you use the structure regardless of whether it's a front yard and so for example Mazur on the north their front yard is Camp Mineola, their rear yard is Fay Court. So I ended up losing my average setback of front property yards because of Mazur's rear yard setback. Their structure is obviously closer or is closer to Camp Mineola and their house that is further down, it's shown as lot 14 faces Reeve Avenue. Their front yard is Reeve and their setback from Fay Court is a side yard, so it's unique in the sense that you're supposed to come up with average front yard setbacks assuming that everybody is using the same street as a front yard, but when you are -- you have a property that has multiple street sides, you end up using somebody's rear yard, somebody's side yard and then the true front yards of the other homes to come up with your average. So if we were to look at this application with respect to those homes that use Fay Court as a front yard, which is this house and the Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 two others to the south, we are complying with the average front yard setbacks. Their front yards are 9.2 and 9.9 and ours is 9.6. So the average of all of those numbers we're compliant, but unfortunately that's not the way it's being applied and it's an interesting issue. When you're deliberating and you're thinking about it, it is certainly a basis for retaining the setback that we have because we are, in fact, want to keep that character of Fay Court where that closeness it's a little type of alleyway-style street and they really wanted to keep that character when they were designing this house. Also, if you see that again we issues of where existing house, floor added, we have sanitaries can go. The there's going to be a second have to comply with FEMA and the plan right now is, because the foundation is pretty sturdy, that we're going to actually raise -- just add -- and (inaudible) here and I have Angel here, the architect. Everybody's here, good. We're going to add a course of block to the foundation to raise it to meet the FEMA standards and so the existing PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - foundation is intended to stay with foundation, block foundation added. 117 February 28, 2008 additional That is our goal, that is our hope. Obviously when things start being taken apart we hope, we don't know, and we hope, we'll leave open the issue that if for some reason our foundation is inadequate we want to -- we may have to rebuild it, but that is the in-kind place where we would want to keep it. We're trying to save money on this addition. It is modest in a sense and we -- we're trying to save what we can and we have to meet FEMA, so that's not a choice. Ail the homes here when they were being renovated ended up having to comply with FEMA whether they wanted to or not. So we're kind of the last one of the homes that has been renovated on this road and that this house has to comply with FEMA. Another issue that came up when we were - - when I was researching the history of this property I found that in 1969 the Zoning Board granted a variance and I wish -- I try to remember all the details that are incorporated into the decision, but they said well we don't want to give you anymore variances with PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 respect to the front, a front yard variance, but they did not consider -- they wanted us 118 to maintain the front yard, the front yard setbacks. subdivision the lot was the legal setbacks, I think it was the subdivided area variance and the condition was placed, well, we'll give this variance, we'll let you put the house here on Fay Court. They didn't consider Fay Court to be a setback issue. They were using Camp Mineola and we are, in fact, complying with Camp Mineola setbacks. Our setback from Camp Mineola is 35 feet. So that I think we are still abiding by that 1969 decision. BOARD ASST.: 1960. MRS. MOORE: Oh, 1960, I typed '69. Okay, thank you. That's my getting close to needing glasses. So that's the Zoning Board decision. We are complying with the intention of that decision, but now, obviously, we have new codes and new interpretations of what other setbacks are applicable and that we're maintaining that 9.6 on Fay Court, but it kind of goes in, because of Walz we're actually PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 increasing the degree of nonconformity on that existing setback. So it's an interesting -- when you read the 1960 variance on the creation of this lot I think we are still meeting the conditions there, we've got new interpretations setbacks that are applicable. it's just that of other So I'll let you read that. In any case, there's really no other way to develop this property other than to do it as the way we had planned or the way we proposed. There is public water here and as I said the sanitary because of the water table with endless number of leaching pools and expansion pools and that's just what we have to accommodate with current standards. I guess that's all I have. I have everybody here to answer questions, so if there's something I can't answer I'm going to defer to those that can. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just ask one question? MRS. MOORE: Sure, go ahead. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why are we at 27.5%? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold MRS. MOORE: need to -- this 120 February 28, 2008 Okay. Well, the garage they is going to be their year- round home. They need a garage and I think that that's really what pops it out over the lot coverage. If we were to try to incorporate the garage into the house you'd end up with a bigger house. So they are actually trying to take what is a very small property and use the garage as part of the living space because if we were to take the garage and make it a detached garage we'd lose the ability to use the living space and the house would be inadequate. So that's where we're over the 20% lot coverage and I would remind the Board that I believe I've come before this Board on numerous variances on Camp Mineola Road and lot coverage is one of your standard variances because the lots are truly nonconforming. So it doesn't take very much to put you over the 20%. MEMBER WEISMAN: Pat, what's the most comprehensive site plan you've submitted? I've got the floor plans and elevations. MRS. MOORE: Are you talking about -- I like the survey. I'm looking at the survey. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: This survey? MRS. MOORE: I'm looking at the one that is -- it's a big one. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: December 14. MEMBER WEISMAN: The December 147 MRS. MOORE: You should have a big one. Yeah, the surveyor's site plan. That has -- MEMBER WEISMAN: my file but -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, 121 alright it's dated September 21. The one I'm looking at is the September 21st one. MEMBER OLIVA: The 217 MRS. MOORE: At the bottom it says dated September 21, 2007. BOARD ASST.: That one we have. MEMBER WEISMAN: I've got it. MRS. MOORE: Okay, good. Alright, that one I was able to get Mr. (inaudible) to give me all the data on one map, which has the existing -- the lot coverage of the existing house, deck, stoops and shed and then the proposed addition and then the area of the overlap is about 22 feet. So the total lot coverage comes to 27.5. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 I'm trying to find it in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 ZBA Town of Southold MEMBER WEISMAN: proposing a 12 foot side near the garage. MRS. MOORE: Yeah, February 28, 2008 Yeah, well you're 5 inch side yard on one that's conforming. We have it determined at 15, so we actually did maintain the setback to try to -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Right. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: There are -- site inspection indicates that there are a variety of houses like this that have been transformed the years to much larger structures or down. Certainly the one that's to the -- direction are we -- the very large one to over torn what the north. MRS. MOORE: To MEMBER WEISMAN: the north, Mazur. The one that you had the previous variances for at the dead end of Fay Court. MRS. MOORE: Right, that's right. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very substantial house, so this is not without precedent; however, the other -- this is a very small lot relative to some of the others that are there. That's why I believe the lot coverage is so PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 extensive. Is there anyway you can envision reducing that lot coverage? As you know that is a very substantial variance. You're proposing a second story. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Which of course creates a significant impact in terms of Walz, but at least the setback is being maintained. MRS. MOORE: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you know, when you look at the other houses that front on Fay Court they're one story, the little ones. Now, we're talking about two stories on Fay Court -- stories. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, there -- Okay, you have to come and approach the mike, if you want to comment about that. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MS. DUNN: Hi, my name is Marjorie Dunn and (inaudible) my house is actually the smallest house in the whole area. Ail of the other houses are two stories and I don't know if you took pictures. MRS. MOORE: I did take pictures, but I don't know -- I can provide those to you, but PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - I don't may not MS. 124 February 28, 2008 know that I have them in my file. I have printed them. DUNN: That's why none of my neighbors are here to object because they're all delighted that my little dump is going to now keep up with the standards of their houses. You know? And it's still smaller than the houses on either side of me, even what I proposed is still smaller. MEMBER WEISMAN: What would happen, cause we know it's happened many, many times, under construction, if indeed that foundation really had to have major work done? MRS. DUNN: What would happen? Well, we still would have the -- the house wouldn't change. The design of the house wouldn't change in any way. It would just be a question of instead of adding the course to bring it up to grade, we'd have to replace the foundation and make it just the same way. MEMBER WEISMAN: If we condition this "in place and in kind" this is a reasonable way to proceed. What I don't want to do in writing any kind of draft -- MRS. MOORE: You mean the foundation? Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: In writing any kind of draft to condition something that's not possible to do. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. That's why I'm raising that because -- MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not (inaudible) the property owner and it's not (inaudible) of this Board to proceed that way. MRS. MOORE: Well, I think if you -- the footprint if what you're going to approve as long as you don't write it in such a way that prohibits us from replacing the foundation, "in place and in kind" I think instead of additions. You can probably -- are you adding -- the foundations that you're adding -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can call him up, Pat. MRS. MOORE: Come on up, Bob. Maybe you can explain kind of -- one of the two of you, both of you up here. The existing foundation is I think a block foundation as I recall? MR. VILCH: Yes. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Okay, how are we -- are these poured or another block foundation. MR. VILCH: Probably block. MRS. MOORE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Your name? MR. VILCH: Bob Vilch, Inland Homes. MR. CHORNOS: Angel Chornos, Architect. MRS. MOORE: Why don't you explain for the record how you plan to do this, at this point? MR. VILCH: As far as -- MRS. MOORE: Yeah, how these additions are going to -- MR. VILCH: MRS. MOORE: MR. VILCH: up like -- actually I have a set of the original specifications from the original contractor, which stated the course stated block and the size of the footings. I dug them up just to check and the footings, the existing footings in there are 8 by 16 so we would be adding block on top of the existing foundation and then using block for the additional foundations. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 126 As far as the foundation? Yeah, the foundations. We plan to use block. I dug 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is this a monolithic pour or -- MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's not a pour. MR. VILCH: No. It's block. It's a poured concrete footing and then 8 by 16 block. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MR. CHORNOS: That's underneath this then the block on top of that foundation. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so in other words what you're telling me is from what you can understand the footings themselves meet code and are okay? MR. VILCH: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And that is the reason why you're anticipating -- excuse me for taking this over -- that is why you're anticipating that you can use those footings. MR. VILCH: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can do that by just placing more on top of those. MR. VILCH: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and Mr. Chornos will certify that? MR. CHORNOS: Sure. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, one other question regarding lot coverage. Pat, you stated about using the garage to become living space. The way the plans on it seems as though the front elevation facing Camp Mineola there's a two- car garage one and a half stories, correct? MRS. MOORE: Yes. They can use the second floor of the garage as storage space as I recall because you can't put a -- MR. CHORNOS: You cannot put basements. MRS. MOORE: Yes. not MEMBER WEISMAN: living space? MRS. MOORE: No, MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's meant to be no. Cause you said living space. So I thought you were -- you were talking about storage space. MRS. MOORE: Storage space, right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Non-habitable. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, kind of a loft storage condition. Let's clarify that. Any reason why in order to reduce lot coverage this can't be a one-car garage? PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: I think the practicality of MRS. DUNN: Because the basement will be totally eliminated. Now there's a basement there, but because they changed the ruling -- MRS. MOORE: FEMA. MRS. DUNN: -- with floors, they said they don't want us to have basements anymore. So because we're taking away an entire basement there won't be any basement. We need some storage space so that's what we'll use the garage for, storage space. MEMBER WEISMAN: I just wanted to have the answer on the record. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay no further questions at this time from me. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I don't have any questions. MEMBER OLIVA: No, I don't have any questions. MEMBER SIMON: A couple of comments more than questions. One is I admire the imaginativeness with which one can cherry-pick rulings with regard to front yard and PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - backyards and -- cause it 130 February 28, 2008 doesn't say anywhere in the code whether -- the difference between a front yard, which is used as a front yard or a front yard which is a technical front yard. So we have to get back to the question of how -- what difference it really makes that on the Fay Court side sometimes it will be at the back of the house and sometimes we'll be at the front of the matters with the code. So that's review. house and whether this really spirit and the letter of the an issue we just have to Secondly, the question of the conditions which were put in at a time it seems is perfectly clear whether we can sustain your argument that says they really don't apply anymore because the interpretations have changed over the years. It looks as though the variance would require a suspension of those conditions rather than a reinterpretation. Reinterpretation is to help us justify a suspension of those conditions, but as the Chairman brought up the one question that wasn't mentioned in the original point was the lot coverage for which you did PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 give an answer is basically and I want to quote you, you said, "in order to develop the property we sort of need to have more lot coverage." Then the question comes to what extent can you quote "develop" a property that is so small and already so crowded? One way of developing a property, of course, would be to build upward and to deal with the lot coverage you now have. So I think we're going to have to look closely at this some 20% to 27.5% lot coverage, which is a pretty significant thing. It's about 35% variance, I believe, on that and see whether the rationale -- some of the arguments are fairly compelling. For example, the reply to the questions about why you need a larger garage is pretty persuasive. Yes, everybody who has a two-car garage uses part of it for storage. You're losing your storage by losing the basement, that's a very good reason and so I just want to look closely and see whether all of these features of a complex application can be equally sustained and justified. It's just comments on the questions. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63])878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: I would also point out that if you look at the variances that have been granted on Camp Mineola and Fay Court most of the homes have been constructed with lot coverage variances here because none of the homes that have been built so far or rebuilt could be built based on the 20% lot coverage. MEMBER SIMON: Were any of them rebuilt with increased lot coverage? MRS. MOORE: Oh yes. MEMBER SIMON: You know that -- MRS. MOORE: Oh absolutely. MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible). MRS. MOORE: you'd like that detail. MEMBER SIMON: have that, yes. MRS. MOORE: Significantly more and if I can provide you with a I would be grateful to I can provide that to Yes. provide it. MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER WEISMAN: The hearing can be closed and I yOU. can just Yeah, right. But I'll write that as the character of the neighborhood. MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I'll give that PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold 133 February 28, 2008 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to you. I would also -- I found the decision and remembered as I read it here the 1969 -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is '69. MRS. MOORE: need the glasses. you over me? Alright, there you go. You See how quickly I believe Alright, the variance where it says here the variance was granted and it said, let's see, "Subject to the conditions and no variance shall be granted in the future for side yard", which we are meeting, "rear yard," which at the time was Camp Mineola and we are meeting the 35-foot rear yard as it was defined in the -- as it was applied to this property, "or front yard setbacks", which we're not encroaching beyond the existing, which that was the interpretation. Not too long ago even, you could go to the existing structure as long as you maintained the same setback before Walz. We would not have been encroaching with the side addition that we're proposing. So as you can see that that 1969 decision we are still actually complying with it accept PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, for the yard an 2008 fact that Walz now makes our front increase in the degree of 134 very reserving decision until closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. MRS. MOORE: And I'll get you before -- shortly, within the week, I'll get you the lot coverage. the variances here so I house. I know I've done a lot of may have them in- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Pending that information, I do apologize, I need to modify that resolution. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6128 - Anthony E. and Carol Mitarotondo MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for a Variance under Sections 280-15, based on the Building PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 nonconformity. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, what I would like to do is ask if anybody in the room would like to speak for or against this application. Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 ZBA Town of Southold - Inspector's Disapproval February 28, 2008 January 7, 2008 Notice of concerning a proposed accessory shed with a front yard setback at less than the code-required 50 feet and side yard setback at less than the code-required 15 feet, at 950 Little Peconic Bay Road, Cutchogue; CTM 111-14-15." Alright, I see you have a variance for a prior house that we approved before and the shed is 8 by 12 and, I mean, I'm almost wondering why you're even here and I'm thinking maybe you put it there and maybe you can put it on a wheelbarrow and move it somewhere else. That's how small it is. That's all I have. Do you have anything to add to that? MR. FITZGERALD: Jim Fitzgerald for Dr. Mitarotondo. The citing of the shed is that which would minimize our involvement with the DEC and the Trustees and with the zoning regulation. There's a bulkhead which is not on our property, but presumably the development behind the bulkhead restriction would still apply regardless of who owned it Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 and if -- those of you that have been there see that there is, other than the waterside yard areas, which would come under the heading of those which are out of bounds as it were, the place that we picked for the shed is essentially the only place on reasonably level ground that it could be located. We plan to put an access path from the top of the bank nearby down to the shed area and I think that's about it. I'd be happy to answer your questions. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I have. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did you discuss this with any neighbors, particularly the one to the right? MR. FITZGERALD: Dr. Mitarotondo said that he had, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good. MR. FITZGERALD: And I presume since he didn't report back any difficulty that it was okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any utility in the shed such as electricity or anything? MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry? Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any utility in shed such as electricity in the enclosure? MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Electricity? MR. FITZGERALD: I think we would like to have the option of putting both electricity and water in. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Inside the shed? MR. FITZGERALD: What? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Outside the shed for the water? I'm sorry, Jim. Outside the shed for the water, like a water spigot? Is that what you're referring to? be a MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I guess possibility. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. that would MR. FITZGERALD: I'd have to see (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Any questions? MEMBER OLIVA: No, I don't have any questions. MEMBER SIMON: No, just this is a case where a site visit is a particularly helpful PuglieseCou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 in order to consider the topographic conditions, which are hard to depict on a document. I have no questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: It took a while to find those stakes because it's such a high bank. You know, the impact to the Mitarotondo's will be negligible because they won't even see the shed because there's such heavy screening and one of my questions is how are they going to even access it and your answer, I believe, for the record, was they're going to cut an access path down that bank. MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, essentially if you were to draw a line between the shed and the front door of the house it would be -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Right in there someplace. Yeah, because the biggest impact is because it's open there it's going to have a big visual impact on the neighbors. MR. FITZGERALD: MEMBER WEISMAN: MR. FITZGERALD: MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. Primarily. Yes. So I'm just interested to make sure that they're alright with that and that otherwise perhaps some sort of minor PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 landscape screening so that it mitigates their view. It's quite close to that property line. MR. FITZGERALD: MEMBER WEISMAN: property line is it, MR. FITZGERALD: MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. How far from that do you know offhand? Five feet. Yeah, five feet. So it's a very small shed, but -- MR. FITZGERALD: Five feet. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it depends upon the intensity of use of that shed. If it's just a storage thing that won't be accessed all that often, but you're talking about electric and water and so on, it may be helpful to us to understand how that shed is going to be used, for storage of what, that. MR. FITZGERALD: you know, things like Well, I think we would have to assume that it would be accessed with some frequency. It's not -- I don't think he wants it just to put a wheelbarrow in it and leave it there. I think he may use it as a potting shed or -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, is there any dilemma in speaking with your client and PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 finding out what he intends to use the shed for and submitting a letter indicating, so we know? MR. FITZGERALD: Sure. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We also need a diagram if there's water and electricity involved. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Like where a sink is going to go if you're planning to have a sink like you just said. MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The screening is also another important thing so it can really be done twofold. We can do it or you can do it, it really doesn't make any difference. MEMBER WEISMAN: Rather they do it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. So a planting plan, a little screening plan with some bushes. MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, in between the property line okay and we'll see what develops throughout the hearing to see if there is any discussion from the neighbors. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 Thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak, on the Board? Okay, is there anybody like to speak for or against this application? Okay, I will close this hearing pending the receipt of that information from Mr. Fitzgerald, which is a diagram, again, of the internal portion of the shed to include those two utilities and some screening between there and the property line and the use of it. Thank you Mr. Fitzgerald. I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING %6124 - Richard and Marylou Manfredi MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for Variances under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's December 11, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning as-built and existing deck construction, proposed for reconstruction with enlargement resulting in a rear yard setback at less than 50 feet and single side PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 142 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 yard setback at less than 15 feet, at 170 Hilltop Path, Southold; CTM 54-1-29." Is anybody here representing the Manfredis? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, the architect. Kindly state your name for the record, sir. MR. NOTARO: Frank Notaro, N-O-T-A-R-O. I am the architect for Mr. and Mrs. Manfredi who are present along with the landscape contractor who will be constructing the new proposed deck. If I may make just one clarification, subsequently we were requested to give additional area calculations. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MR. NOTARO: When we did that it actually shows that the proposed reconstruction of the deck is less square footage than what's existing and that reduces your lot coverage by minimal half a percent, but it's actually a reduction. If you have any other questions, please. MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't believe we're here for lot coverage so I don't know how that concerns me, but my understanding is that the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 read them off to you. MEMBER WEISMAN: requires 15 and 0. MEMBER DINIZIO: MEMBER WEISMAN: 4.16 feet when the code 4-point what? 4.16 feet rear yard setback and a side yard setback of zero, but that's along the right-of-way. That's along the (inaudible). PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 deck already exists and -- MR. NOTARO: Correct. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- are you going to tear it down and put a new one up? Is that what the plan is? MR. NOTARO: Yes and it's going to be the same height that it is presently. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right and you're going to add a little bit to it? MR. NOTARO: No, actually we're going to reduce it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, as far as the setbacks are concerned, there's no increase in the setbacks that currently exist? MR. NOTARO: Correct. MEMBER DINIZIO: What are those setbacks? MR. NOTARO: They're on the plan, we can 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 144 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. NOTARO: Correct. Everything that we're proposing is actually just replace in kind. The railroad ties that provide a little retaining wall we would change to concrete block. The existing fence, protective fence around the upper pool deck, is actually going to be visually lower on grade and that's going to surround the entire property. One of the reasons why Mr. and Mrs. Manfredi requested the fence was if you visited the site it's kind of like a very nondescript area. Cars drive all over the place with no defined roads. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. MR. NOTARO: And they're just really trying to kind of control the traffic a little bit in the area, too. MEMBER DINIZIO: I think, you know, when I first looked at this, I mean, I thought that that deck was excessive and, you know, I'm just wondering if there's any way to cut it back a little bit. I know that the pool needs a certain distance between the property line and the pool itself. I understand there's a certain amount to walk around that pool. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. NOTARO: YES. MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean that looks to me like that's probably about four feet. MR. NOTARO: Yes. We actually have cut it on the waterside. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. MR. NOTARO: Cut back and we actually have reduced it slightly on the rear setback, too. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. I wanted to talk about granting a deck at zero. That concerns me. MR. NOTARO: I understand. That is preexisting. MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand. MR. NOTARO: And -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Does this deck have a CO? 145 MR. NOTARO: I believe it does, the house received a C of O so I assumed that was just part of the C of O. The thing is you have an initial -- getting around the pool at that zero lot line, it's a preexisting pool. BAORD ASST.: The dimensions are a little different with the CO on the design. It's PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 of Southold - February 28, 2008 ZBA Town similar. MR. NOTARO: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. I know that the CO -- MR. NOTARO: tight that side, You know, it's a little but we can't obviously move the pool at this point. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. MR. NOTARO: And we haven't heard any complaints about noise or anything. The pool equipment is actually on the waterside where there are no homes. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's right. I just wanted to express my displeasure with the zero footage and see if we can mitigate that in some way, but I honestly. MR. NOTARO: see no way of doing it, Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: So I guess -- I don't know. We'll hear from the other people. MEMBER OLIVA: I agree with Jim about the zero setback, but I don't know what else you're going to do either. MR. NOTARO: We have to cut off that section of the pool as a circulation PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: I don't think you can do it. Otherwise there's a lot of that decking and the path would be an improvement on what's there now, which is nothing and after the rains and the soil was kind of mushy going there yesterday. MEMBER WEISMAN: The code requires a minimum of 3 feet and you're practically there in terms of a walkway around a pool. I should also point out that Hilltop Road, which is a very small private right-of-way, curves away when you get to the pool from that setback. It's (inaudible) off the hill. I live in the area and drive by endless times and I think this is a part that would improve the landscape scheme in general that would do more than just replace the pool because you only need a variance to replace the deck, but I think the whole thing would be a nice improvement and I just want to state that I think there is no other option as tight as it is and it's just simply a structural upgrade from what's there. So I don't -- that's just for the record. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 I have no questions really. I think it's a clear application. MR. NOTARO: The other reason for -- besides the fact that the deck is very mushy and needs to be reconstructed, we are going to incorporate a motorized pool cover within the new deck so that was really the biggest concern. MEMBER SIMON: Yes. My only question is I was sort of curious of the history of getting something with a zero setback. MR. NOTARO: I'm sorry? I can't -- MEMBER SIMON: The history of construction of something with a zero setback. MR. NOTARO: That's a very interesting question. That must go back 15 years maybe, 10 years. MEMBER SIMON: MR. NOTARO: MEMBER SIMON: with the people who else you could do. a code. I mean you're not going chop up the pool. We're dealing with something which we don't understand cause we're Since there was Yeah. Okay, I just -- I agree say that I don't know what to dealing with the property on the ground Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 ZBA Town of Southold and (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: creation of Hilltop Path MR. NOTARO: I would probably what kind of MEMBER WEISMAN: new path that was put February 28, 2008 I think that was the (inaudible). say the buffer is justified -- okay. I mean that's a fairly in to accommodate new construction in that area. MEMBER SIMON: As you may know, when we come across something with a zero or 6 inch setback there's a history and sometimes the history is (inaudible), but you don't know anything about that. MEMBER DINIZIO: about that, Michael? (inaudible)? Well, can I just comment I inquired about the zero history and I was told basically that because it's ground level it doesn't count. Okay, back then it didn't count cause I built my pool around the same time and got about the same thing. MEMBER SIMON: Alright. MEMBER DINIZIO: Although I ripped it up. I'm three feet away now (inaudible). I thinks that the why and there it is pretty much ground level. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town MR. NOTARO: provided all of of Southold - February 28, It is. I mean we've the (inaudible). 150 2008 at that particular spot straight, where it says removed. MR. NOTARO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: it's actually existing deck is to be You see that where it's 10 inches, where is that represented? MR. NOTARO: Well, which question are you referring to the existing deck question or the 10 inches? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, what is the 10 inches actually representing? Is that 10 inches around -- MR. NOTARO: The 10 inches from the fence. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: From the fence itself. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 MEMBER DINIZIO: So that's the reason why it is. There's not -- there's nothing going on here. I can assure you of that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Notaro, when you get to the area closest to the words now of (inaudible) and there is a figure of 10 inches between the curvature of the pool deck 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. NOTARO: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's the answer to that question. I thank you, sir. Let's see what develops throughout the hearing. Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion. Is there any other questions Closing this hearing, for later. from the Board? reserving decision MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6130 - Donald and Janis Rose MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for Variances under Sections 280-15B and 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's January 7, 2008 amended Notice of Disapproval concerning the location of a new two-story accessory building at a height exceeding 18 feet to the top of the ridge after removal of a building, and which new building is proposed at less than five (5} feet from the property line and with a lot coverage which exceeds the code PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 Commission; property is District? ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 limitation of 20% (existing 27.43% lot coverage), Location of Property: 145 King Street, Orient; CTM 1000-126-1-23." As I understand this, the lot coverage existing 27.4%, proposed lot coverage would be 28.2%. We have a new building to replace a demoed accessory garage with a shed at 3 feet from the property line where the code requires 5 feet. I also believe there has to be a review by the Landmark Preservation is that correct, also, cause the listed within the Historic the Mrs. They went as far problem was they want, construction drawings MRS. MOORE: Well, it's actually was presented to Landmarks and they went through review. I have Nancy Steelman and Mr. and Rose are here today. I'm Pat Moore. as reviewing it, but the they were insisting on and we can't really in fairness to the client prepare full construction drawings without knowing if we have approval for putting the garage where we want. MEMBER WEISMAN: Of course. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, MRS. MOORE: problem that we 153 2008 So it was kind of a circular said alright we'll hold off, see what variances you grant, and then we'll go back to them and finish it off. So we tried to -- I know they went around and around, but they insisted and here we are. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me carry on and see if I have this -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well there are some drawings here, certainly. MRS. MOORE: Oh, there are, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible). MRS. MOORE: They gave them very detailed drawings and it seemed to me that what's the difference between a working, you know, for purposes of Landmarks they don't -- they should not necessarily be concerned with how you're building it, just what it's going to look like. So well that will take time to develop their procedures in such a way that is workable and, unfortunately, I think we're just kind of beginning things. Yeah, we were. MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm going to recap the issues as I understand them and then we'll see PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 154 2008 if there's anything else. The 3-foot setback from the property line has a great deal to do with the tightness in that corner of the existing structure. If you move it over from the side yard any more, then you will lose any ability to place a car -- MRS. MOORE: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Because it would just be too far over to get a car straight in and out. MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: Secondly, what you're saying is you want to fill in that "L" that you need create a trellis connection between the house and the structure and the proposed new structure, but that you also want to build a second story on that, which would displace, I guess, the existing tool/work area with a complete second floor to it. So the impact is -- and you're proposing to do that in order to mitigate additional lot coverage. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: However, you're already way over lot coverage cause it's a very small lot. MRS. MOORE: Yes. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 155 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's not exactly what I would call a mitigation. MRS. MOORE: Well, unfortunately we're dealing with -- I mean it's a beautiful village, it's a beautiful spot, but pretty much every -- these lots are preexisting nonconforming village lots that are extremely tight and the house, as it is, is not a large house, but the size of the lot is small and the lot coverage is trying to accommodate. In reality, the existing lot coverage for the existing structures is already in place. It's the extra lot coverage that is the portion that is being enclosed, the additional box. MEMBER WEISMAN: How many square feet is that? MRS. MOORE: We have 55 square feet. Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: 55 square feet is additional. MRS. MOORE: Of additional lot coverage. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's on the ground. MRS. MOORE: Exactly. MEMBER WEISMAN: What's above it is a whole other story. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - MRS. MOORE: Exactly. 156 February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're talking about 18 feet to the mansard and 20 feet to the ridge on the proposed. MRS. MOORE: No, to the mansard, you mean to the mean and -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute, I probably have {inaudible) the drawings they'll tell me. Knowing you, they'll tell me. MRS. MOORE: Yes, it will. It does. It's 18 feet to the peak of the space. MEMBER WEISMAN: 18 feet to the base or - MRS. MOORE: Well, it's (inaudible). Come on up. Nancy Steelman, I defer to her on the -- what do you call that? MS. STEELMAN: That is the top of the gable. MRS. MOORE: The gable, thank you. It's been a long day. Top of the ridge is the 20 feet. MEMBER WEISMAN: The 20 feet to the ridge. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: 18 to the gable. Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Take a look at sheet 2. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well I want to hear what my colleagues say. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's the use of the structure? MRS. MOORE: Well, it's a garage and my client Mr. Rose has a passion for -- has a life and what MR. ROSE: home -- workshop for woodwork and metal work and he will explain to you what he's done all his he needs this space for. This will be our retirement CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: name for the record. MR. ROSE: Oh, my name S-E. We just need your is Don Rose, R-O- This will be our retirement home. I've been a woodworker since like six years old. I've built three boats. Woodworking is my passion and right now my shop in Rutherford is over 1000 square feet. I need to obviously squeeze things together, but I need area to do my woodworking and so that's why we wanted to go up a second floor. Actually have woodworking in the second floor, some PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, metalworking machinery in the a slot, small slot for a car. 158 2008 first floor plus This has been an abiding passion of mine for as long as I can recall. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So this is in effect a hobby? MRS. MOORE: Yes. This is a hobby, that's correct. MR. ROSE: Yes, that's correct. MRS. MOORE: A very involved hobby, but yes, like an artist or anyone else that is his -- it's not a profession, it's not a business MR. ROSE: No. MRS. MOORE: -- in any way. It's just -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Will you require heat? MR. ROSE: Heat and air conditioning. I have some cast iron machinery that weighs in excess of 1500 pounds. I need a climate controlled atmosphere to prevent frost and also a comfortable area to do my work. MEMBER WEISMAN: Water and electric. MRS. MOORE: No water. MR. ROSE: Don't need water. MEMBER WEISMAN: No water. Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold MR. ROSE: the grass. MRS. MOORE: you -- MEMBER WEISMAN: have it insulated, of MR. ROSE: Right. 159 February 28, 2008 Have water, I guess, to spray No bathroom, if that's what No bathroom. course. You will MEMBER WEISMAN: If you're gonna have -- Tell me a little bit about the noise that's involved with working with the tools that you work with. MR. ROSE: The noisiest machine is probably the planer. It -- you put a flat board and you're cutting along the width of the board. It's not excessive noise. The metal working is actually quite quiet, but you'll hear a saw and that's about it. I would think that normal insulation in the walls would be, in my opinion, perfectly adequate to shield off noise to the neighbors. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, because as you can appreciate you're very close -- MR. ROSE: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to the neighbors all over. That may become an issue, but we'll Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town 160 of Southold - February 28, 2008 if anyone else in the audience has wait to see MR. ROSE: Oh, as a matter of fact, the neighbor right next door Peter Nolan (sic} I think, maybe wrote a note. MEMBER OLIVA: Yes. MRS. MOORE: Yes, she sent a letter. MEMBER WEISMAN: She's in which direction? MR. ROSE: She's to the west. MRS. MOORE: Is it this one? MR. ROSE: Yeah, to the east. MRS. MOORE: Okay. MR. ROSE: Like I said, to the east. Her garage is right next door to the out building that we're proposing. MRS. MOORE: I haven't given it to you yet, but Mr. Rose was very kind, he got me the Google map that shows the location of each of the garages that surround this property and you will see that the garage that we have proposed is right in line with the garage next door, the two-car garage next door. MEMBER OLIVA: Right. MRS. MOORE: There's a garage that is in Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1t 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 line. know not. 161 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 their rear yard that faces the other street. What's the other side? MR. ROSE: Navy Street. MRS. MOORE: Navy Street and then there's also a garage on the west side as well as the house, which is very close to the property So I have that on one map and I don't if one Board member wants to see this or MEMBER OLIVA: CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: question? MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm I drive by it everyday. Can I just ask a (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Who's writing the -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm writing it. MRS. MOORE: Okay, so maybe you want to give it to her. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask you a question? Being an avid woodworker would you be doing this normally during the daylight hours? You wouldn't be are sleeping or -- MR. ROSE: No, no. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: that? doing this when people -- anything like Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - MR. ROSE: daylight hours. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you done? February 28, No, it would be during 162 2008 Okay, thank you. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, your comment about the noise of the planers is spoken like a true person who would love to hear machines, cause they are quite loud. Are you going to be building boats in this garage? MR. ROSE: No, probably -- I'll probably be building furniture and gifts for neighbors and things like that. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. More like birdhouses as opposed to skiffs? MR. ROSE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: know, I don't want to I'm just looking -- you see a (inaudible) crop up (inaudible). You know, we try to get a feel for what you're doing. MR. ROSE: No, I don't have any boat plans in mind. No. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and then the assumption is if you're air conditioned and you're heated the doors are going to be closed. It's not like you're going to have PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 these planers going off, you know, with the garage door open. MR. ROSE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. Alright, that's all I have. MEMBER OLIVA: I know the area cause I drive by, as I said, a couple of times a day and I have no further questions. It's fine. You're in tight quarters, there's nothing much you can do. Wish you well with your woodwork. Glad to see that you're going to year- rounders. MR. ROSE: Yes, looking forward to it. MEMBER SIMON: One thing, did you say Rutherford? MR. ROSE: Yes. MEMBER SIMON: Rutherford, New Jersey? MR. ROSE: Rutherford, New Jersey. MEMBER SIMON: Well, I guess you deserve to be congratulated for fleeing from New Jersey and (inaudible). Seriously, you have a radial arm saw and a (inaudible)? MR. ROSE: No, I don't as a matter of fact. I'm sorry? PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 164 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER SIMON: Table saw? MR. ROSE: Table saw. MEMBER SIMON: Okay, well I think it's probably a nice place to work. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have Mr. Rose this is a true precedent to side yards and so on and so forth and lot coverage. This is a difficult one, okay. We just want you to know that. MR. ROSE: Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's not a presumption or a statement of non-acceptance. It's tight, it really is tight. We'll see what else develops. Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? MRS. MOORE: I'd just like to make one more point that this house does not have a basement so keeping that in mind. MEMBER DINIZIO: I just want to say something. Although I don't have any objection to the -- (inaudible) from the Board, cause I have no objection to the lot coverage, but are there objections on the lot coverage on the Board? PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 to tell you in reference 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not from me. MEMBER DINIZIO: Cause we need to discuss this in the hearing as opposed to discussing them when we make a decision. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And any other objections to use? HVAC. We just want also. MR. ROSE: What? We don't normally grant you to be aware of that CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: HVAC, meaning -- MRS. MOORE: You do when you have a workshop and you -- I know I've had -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Never air conditioning. MEMBER DINIZIO: We're considering it in the area on another application. MRS. MOORE: Yeah. MEMBER DINIZIO: On another application we're considering it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're considering it, but on granting it -- MRS. MOORE: Oh, okay. (inaudible) building to keep the building closed up and you don't have the disturbance of the neighbors. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, this 166 2008 is why - MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm concerned about just discussing the 28% because that is huge and I didn't hear anybody else ask any questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not done. Oh, I'm sorry. I want it on the record, that's all. MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. Having said that, there are two impacts clearly. One is already a very large lot coverage and even though the additional amount is small, it's still a very substantial variance. The other impact, of course, is vertical and whereas there are other two-story accessory structures in the area, it's a very tight corner, really, really tight and so when you're looking at not only going out, but also going up, there are shadows cast, there are views that are affected. There's a whole bunch of issues. So having said that let me put it to you this way, have you considered the possibility of designing something that reduces either one PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 of those conditions? I mean clearly you can't do much more on the ground in front. MRS. MOORE: Well, I really -- I point out that what is obvious to me and Nancy can discuss it further, I think when she designed this garage being local architects we are all very aware of the type of impact and the type of roof design and the dormer that is proposed has tried to keep the volumes down so you can see the dormer is at 18 with just the ceiling height being able to meet code ceiling height, but it does pitch back. So you don't have a overwhelming structure that extends with a height of 21 or 22 feet all the way to the edge of the structure. So that was addressed in the design, specifically with respect to how the shadows and the volumes on a close property line. I would also point out that you now have that, you know, have that Google map that shows that the impact is again lessened because you are in effect making shadows on another garage. So it's not a -- it's mitigating, it's not placing that structure right on top of someone's home or even the Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 rear yard in a sense because it's on top of another structure. So I think there has been some very careful design here to try to address those issues and I've asked Mr. Rose if, you know, there's any way to limit it, but he really has a lot of very specialized equipment that takes up space, so you can shove a lot in, but you still have to be able to walk around it. So I think they've tried but obviously -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there any way to consider -- MRS. MOORE: Go ahead. MS. STEELMAN: I would like to make a -- we have a hip roof and that is working off the existing house and also we've tried to maintain the second floor tray heights at 6 feet. It's not a full 8 feet, we know it would exceed the height restriction even more. So we're just opening up the ceiling inside to get additional volume of space on that upper floor. So we've tried to mitigate it to a certain degree. MEMBER WEISMAN: I can see that, but I wanted it on record. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Yes, that's good. MEMBER WEISMAN: One last thing to explore. Have you considered the possibility of using that entire structure at grade for your workshop and putting a car under a carport and not having it used as a garage, but using it as your one-story work space? MR. ROSE: Yes, the Historical -- MRS. MOORE: Yes. MS. STEELMAN: I don't think the Historical (inaudible). MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I think that they were concerned about the integrity of the Historic Landmarks using carports because that doesn't seem to fit with the Village architectural style. MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The last comment is are you anticipating any construction on the house with your moving out here, any second stories or anything at this time? MR. ROSE: Yeah, I'm discussing it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have discussed it. Okay. The last thing is we do need something in the testimony regarding the 3 to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 5 feet from the code standpoint. Maybe you can give us something in writing regarding that, Pat, as far as the ability of not adhering to the 5-foot setbacks. MRS. MOORE: Oh, well I think it was put on the record early on, but I'll certainly state it again. Right now we have the setback of the existing structure at 2.1. So the structure is actually being moved over to 3. We understand that's still not conforming, obviously, but because the house leaves only an alleyway in a sense to get to the garage it doesn't -- because we looked at the ability to move the garage away from the property line, but it eliminates the use of the garage as a vehicle garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MRS. MOORE: So we really were limited in the placement and I think that's why most of the garages here are so close to the property line because the homes are, for the most part, centered on the property. With very small properties that doesn't leave you a lot of side yard. So you're left with your driveway access being very narrow with the garage being PuglieseCourtReportingandTran$¢riptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 placed almost to the property line and that is the -- the condition doesn't change with this new garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the law of Collins in me that just asked that question. MRS. MOORE: Very good question because we did discuss it and said, you know, is there any way of moving it away and that they accurately pointed out that if we don't need a garage, yeah, but we still need a garage. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think I asked the question regarding the people who are present regarding this application so I will go forward with the closing of this hearing and the anticipation of making decision and/or (inaudible) upon it in March and I therefore offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING %6126 - David Fisher MEMBER OLIVA: I'm recusing myself on the next application cause they're friends of mine. MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for a Variance Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 172 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 under Section 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's December 11, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning proposed additions to the existing single-family dwelling, which increase the lot coverage and exceed the code limitation of 20% lot coverage, at 2165 Old Orchard Road, East Marion; CTM 37-3-4.1." This deck addition to the existing single-family house would have a front yard setback at 17 feet while the code requires 35 with a 14 foot by 16 foot addition with a rear yard setback of 33.08 feet, the code requires 35 feet. Lot coverage of 23.43%. This is an expanding of living area of master bedroom suite, additional one bedroom, full bath, the existing screened porch will remain. From what I understand, it's about the smallest house in the area and you'll be actually -- let me ask you is this a gut rehab because the sheetrock is all laying down, the interior is being -- it's clearly not to code. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just state your name for the record. MR. SCHWARTZ: Mark Schwartz, architect on the project. Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: So let me hear what you have to say. MR. SCHWARTZ: Maybe Doug you want to speak to that? It's not going to be a complete demolition if that's what you're asking. The main roofline is going to stay. The existing main roofline will remain. We have to beef up the structure cause right now there are 2 by 4 ceiling joists, but that profile will remain and it's -- those exterior walls of the main house now will stay intact as much as possible depending on where the new openings will be. MR. DOUG FISHER: My name is Doug Fisher and we're -- that's our project. Just the existing structure, we're opening up the interior just to make it reasonable. It's so small, each room is, you know, 8 by 9 which brings us to the addition. Essentially, we really want to just maintain the existing exterior profile so that, you know, if you drove by the house 40 years ago and you drive by it in a year, you'd say oh there it is. That's sort of what our thought process is to keep it at one-story and fitting the history Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 174 ZBA Town of Southold of the neighborhood. MEMBER WEISMAN: about this property, lots merged? MR. DOUG FISHER: many years ago. MR. DAVID FISHER: about -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: sir. February 28, 2008 But you are -- tell me is this -- are these two Yeah, my dad did that Those were merged State your name, MR. DAVID FISHER: I purchased the two lots in 1958 -- my name is David Fisher. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MR. DAVID FISHER: I purchased the two lots in 1958 and since we had no plans to develop what is identified as lot 11, some I guess 8 or 10 years ago I combined those on the tax rolls to make that a single lot. So it's a lot now of about 80 by 100 feet approximately. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MEMBER SIMON: How large is the lot actually it doesn't seem to say that? MR. DOUG FISHER: It's -- the south side is about 96 -- PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 175 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER SIMON: No, I mean the area, square feet. MR. DOUG FISHER: Oh, area. MR. SCHWARTZ: 8,523 total. MEMBER SIMON: The two lots? MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's the two combined. So it really is one lot. MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so the lot coverage as proposed is 23.43%, correct? MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Any specific reason why it needs to exceed the 20% lot coverage? MR. SCHWARTZ: We worked hard to try to keep it down as iow as possible. We do want to get the two bedrooms, at least, in this house. One is a master bedroom, but we really wanted to expand the living space, the kitchen, dining and living room and leave the existing screened porch kind of as is. MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible). MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes. In the new deck with the pergola above it is approximately 190 square feet. So that adds into the lot PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 coverage. MEMBER WEISMAN: I should also suggest it has to do with keeping it one-story. MR. SCHWARTZ: Certainly. MEMBER WEISMAN: Rather than taking up the option of going to a second story. I don't have any other questions. Okay, we'll come back. MEMBER DINIZIO: questions. I don't have any MEMBER SIMON: My question has to do with because of the lot coverage and because of the reduced -- the nonconforming front yard setbacks, what is the reason for not building upward, which would -- if you build upward you wouldn't be needing a variance except as a Walz issue. MR. DOUG FISHER: I can address that. In our commmunity the tenet (inaudible) of Bay Estates was generally one-story hung although many people have chosen not to -- some really egregious violations of that, but we just want to stick with it as well as our neighbors on the south side, the Tullys, are only 5 feet or less from the lot line so if we were to go up PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 177 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 we'd be sort of taking sky away from them. They're nice people. MEMBER SIMON: So it really would be a Walz issue. MR. DOUG FISHER: I think so. I would prefer not to have to do that. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's very nice. MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. I don't have any further questions. Now, let me get clear about this, the existing screen porch is going to stay so there's not going to be a reduction of the front yard setback; is that correct? MR. DOUG FISHER: Correct. MEMBER SIMON: Okay. no further questions. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I have Okay, is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, later. MEMBER WEISMAN: reserving decision until Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6132 - Hans H. Reiger PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 178 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 [Member Oliva absent] MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for Variance under Sections 280-15C and 280-124, based on the Building Inspector's January 11,2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning two accessory sheds (as-built) at less than 35 feet from the front yard lot line, at 370 Harbor Road (adjacent to Orient Harbor), Orient; CTM 1000- 27-4-6." Sir, state your name. MR. REIGER: Yes, my name is Hans Reiger and I lived at that address for the last 30 or so years. Before I start, I'd like to ask question, actually, it's sort of a statement. I received a telephone call from your office that apparently a neighbor called that my notice is not visible or was not exposed on my property. Well, this notice has been there from February 8tn to the 28th, today, so there's no question about that the notice is there. On our street we don't have a sidewalk so actually my two sheds which were obviously purchased maybe 15 years ago from Wood Design PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 179 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 in Cutchogue, I asked them if there would be any problems in placing them on my property or if I need a permit and they said no, but this is under the water. Now as regards to a visual impacts of these two sheds, which each one is 6 foot by 12 foot by 8 foot in height, they are shielded by a privet hedge and trees. So they would be minimally noticeable from the street side. Now, I cannot place them in my backyard because I am waterfront, so it's not possible to place these two sheds anywhere else. Now, what I'm using these for, I am a wood carver. In one shed I use my wood shavers and tools, handtools. I have no electricity there, no water. In between the shed and my garage I use the area for carving in the summertime from wood which I have stored there. The other shed is basically for storage of my children's books, school books, etc. I don't have a basement or an attic because my house is a flat roof. So that's really the only location I really can keep all my belongings of my children there, which moved out and are no longer with me. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 180 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Now I would (inaudible) in reference to that because I have no other way of placing these sheds, which are essential to my activities as a woodcarver. I'm willing to place them any place you suggest, but I don't know where would be a better place on my property. So I'm really open for suggestion if you don't give me permission to keep the sheds where they are now. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I I mean it looks pretty nice have no questions. there. They've been there for quite some time and I guess I would just inquire as to how you come to us. Is there a reason why all of a sudden the Town has become aware of these sheds? MR. REIGER: I don't know. I mean, that's -- I think it came from Mr. Fisher, I mean Fish, Gary Fish from the Building Department who thought that they were too close to the street and so that's why I -- MEMBER DINIZIO: They obviously are too close to the street -- MR. REIGER: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: It wasn't like you're looking to sell the house now? PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. REIGER: No, not at all. No, not at all. No, no. I hope to stay a couple of more years. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, thank you. I just wanted to know what the action was. MR. REIGER: Thank you. MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't really have any questions about the locations of the sheds or their uses. They're fairly obvious, I think, and I walked around, as you will recall, your entire property and see no other reasonable place to locate any kind of shed. It doesn't impact on lot coverage particularly, it's simply front yard setback 18 feet and 19 feet when the code requires 35. However, I did notice on the survey you submitted that it's not -- that both your house and your garage are listed as a one-story structure on that survey when it's pretty clear that both your house and your garage are two-story structures. That's not an application that's before us, but I wondered if you would have some comments about that. MR. REIGER: I think it's one story because the lower part is concrete block of my PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 house and it's considered basically basement or sub-structure and I guess that's -- it's only actually one story, the house. The lower part is basement. I mean it's so-called basement. It's not underground because they cannot go below the waterline. I would have water in my house, I mean groundwater. So on the garage, actually, I had -- I just put a roof over that, which is actually still -- I had to have an application pending for a CO on that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, you do have a pending application. MR. REIGER: Yes, oh yes. But actually this I did. Since I do all my work myself it takes time, probably for the last three years I'm trying to finish it and every time I have to renew my permit and every time everything changes. The code changes so all the time Gary Fish is after me to update it. MEMBER WEISMAN: That's probably how he found out about your sheds. MR. REIGER: Another hardship, but we're getting there. MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's in the works. Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, I have nothing further, at this point. 183 2008 MEMBER SIMON: No, it just sort of struck me I asked myself the same question. Where else could the sheds be placed on that property? They seem to be rather nicely tucked in where they are and as long as we're going to allow the sheds or two sheds, I don't really have any questions about it. MR. REIGER: It also gets to be a little bit (inaudible) from the street, where I do my carving. So it's not exactly exposed to people passing by and seeing what I'm doing. MEMBER DINIZIO: The garage, does that have a CO? MR. REIGER: The garage is CO, yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: It does have a CO, okay. MR. REIGER: Yes. Oh definitely, yes. That is -- MEMBER DINIZIO: So the side yard of 3 feet from the garage was approved by somebody or how long has the garage existed? MR. REIGER: The garage exists 20 years. It has a CO, everything is in order there. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. BOARD ASST.: I thought you had mentioned PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 there was no CO for something new on the garage or something? MR. REIGER: Right. The upper structure over the garage, which has a roof now and this is where I still have -- I don't have yet -- Well, actually Gary Fish told me that I still have to get your approval for the sheds. What the reason or how it relates to the upper structure, I don't know, but that's another part, I cannot get my CO until I get your approval for the two sheds, which has no relationship, but in his view it has something to do with it. MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I have to say quire, honestly, I'm basing my assumption that it's okay on the fact that you already have a 3-foot existing setback there on that garage and if now, suddenly, we're going to approve the sheds and you're going to need to come before us for the garage cause I think you may, I have some concerns about that that maybe the sheds can be put together or they can be moved to a more conforming location. I'm not so sure, sir, that you have a CO for the garage. I'm wondering if you can supply PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 185 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 us with -- MR. REIGER: I can prove that, yes. I have a CO, yes. I mean I bring it in myself. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Bring us a copy of it, please. MR. REIGER: Sure. MEMBER DINIZIO: We're going to need to have that, the existing CO and any application for whatever it is that's garage. MR. REIGER: Right. dealing with that Right, well the garage I mean I'm using as a garage. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's not the point, but it garage point. roof seems to me like you've enlarged that from the time that it was built to this MR. REIGER: I didn't enlarge it, over it. Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: That's enlarging. MR. REIGER: Okay. Alright, fine. Thanks. MEMBER DINIZIO: for permit? MR. REIGER: Yes, I maybe I put a Was that with an applied applied for that five years ago for permit and the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Building Department and I'm still waiting on it. I don't have yet CO, but -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, hold on. Hold on. The building permit -- hold on you're going a little bit fast for me. So you put a roof -- the roof which exists on there you put on there relying on a building permit that you got issued to you five years ago, correct? MR. REIGER: I didn't follow, sorry. MEMBER DINIZIO: Five years ago the garage was in a different shape then it is right now? MR. REIGER: Right. Five years ago the garage was a flat roof and an upper structure which was like a gazebo type. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. MR. REIGER: Okay. Lately I decided, I mean about five years ago, I decided to put a pitched roof over that gazebo part so I have room above the garage. Now for that I applied -- I already had all the permits and CO for the garage with the flat roof. Alright? Then I tried to enclose the gazebo on the upper part and applied for a permit for that, which I have and I applied -- actually, I finished PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 187 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 it more or less already and I applied last year for a CO for that upper part over the garage. MEMBER DINIZIO: But you don't have that? MR. REIGER: The CO I don't have yet for that point, no. MEMBER DINIZIO: In all honesty you should have been turned down for that building permit because of Walz. MRS. MOORE: code at the time. for a garage was No, it would have met the Five years ago the setback (inaudible). MEMBER DINIZIO: Five years ago -- no. But -- MRS. MOORE: Five years ago. MEMBER DINIZIO: In a front yard? It's three feet. MRS. MOORE: For the garage? MEMBER DINIZIO: It's three feet away. BOARD ASST.: Excuse me. Are you representing the applicant? MRS. MOORE: No, no. I'm listening. MEMBER DINIZIO: No, that's why I'm kind of trying to get here -- alright, you don't have a CO for that garage. Give us what you PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 188 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 have -- MR. REIGER: I have a CO for the garage, but for the upper part of the roof. MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, yeah. Okay, so let's start from there and then we'll make our decision based on -- MR. REIGER: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: We'll make a decision going forward from that point cause I understand -- MR. REIGER: Okay. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- what she's saying. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you very much. MR. REIGER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody who would like to speak in favor or against this application? Ma'am? Please state your name for the record. MS. MATTHEWS: I'm Catherine Matthews and I intend to question a few things regarding Mr. Reiger's property. If you'll note on the survey there are several discrepancies. One has already been noted that the buildings are two stories. Mr. Reiger has a full two-car Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, garage, which he says he has a CO for does. The building above the garage, across the street, looks completely It may not have heat in it, I'm not it's enclosed. 189 2008 and he I live finished. sure, but I object to him leaving the sheds there because I really think he has ample space between his lower level of his house, his two car garage and the building above the garage for whatever he needs to do as far as his sculpting is concerned. I was surprised nobody asked if this is his business or hobby. I think that would be significant to know. Does that make sense to anyone on the Board? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, it makes all kinds of sense, but the issue here is that so many people, just as the application we had before on King Street, that people use these buildings as a hobby, okay. Now, the question is what do they do with the implements that they create? Okay, do they in effect sell them at a yard sale, do they market them in New York City? I mean, those are all issues that really reflect use, alright? Those are issues that really are not before us in the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 190 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 nature of two storage buildings that have no utilities in them, habitable. MS. MATTHEWS: cause they're not I don't know that they're don't have any utilities in them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, we will go over and inspect them or have the Building Inspector inspect them. MS. MATTHEWS: Okay, cause if you notice also from this picture it looks like Mr. Reiger's hedge on Harbor Road is well in front of his property line and there is another discrepancy in that King Street is not King Street it's Narrow River Road. So I really think that Mr. Reiger has ample space. You asked about the noise level. These buildings are not air conditioned, they're not heated. When he does his work it's not very peaceful and it's not very quiet in the neighborhood. So that is another objection of mine. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, duly noted. MEMBER SIMON: I think it would be useful to follow up on some of the questions that she invited us to ask. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 191 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: welcome to do. MEMBER SIMON: Yes, can you tell us more about specifically the use of your -- the buildings, both the sheds and the upper floor of your garage, raised? MR. REIGER: 2OO8 You're certainly Right. Okay, I am a professional designer, an ecclesiastic designer specializing in designs of church interiors. So, most of my work is on the design table inside my house. Now, I'm happy to -- like wood carvings and do a lot of wood carvings for my own purposes. I use wood chisels, I don't use any noisy tools whatsoever, just my hammer and chisel for carving wood. Now most of these wood carvings I do outside because actually I don't have the space inside. I don't know where to carve, so that's the area where I carve. Now, sometimes I sell them, sometimes I have them at home. I have some carvings at home, which I keep to my house. My wife doesn't like it, but they are there. So I don't know what kind of impact they can have PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 since that question has been 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 on the noise level because actually when I'm pushing a pencil on my table it's certainly not very noisy and when I use my wood chisels it's a minimal amount of noise. Now, on the upper part of the garage, actually, I built a room for my wife so she can do her artwork. She is a weaver, she does weaving and design work, too. So -- but it's not yet finished so she works at lot of time in the summertime when it's warm and I don't think, again, here it does not produce any noise. First, she cannot really occupy it yet because it is -- I don't have the CO yet, but I have been pursuing that matter and I hope, I think I will have it pretty soon for the upper structure of my garage. MEMBER SIMON: Thank you for answering those questions because what Mr. Goehringer is on to is there are some distinctions between hobbies and home occupations and sometimes these come before the Town Boards and sometimes they don't. If somebody is making decoy ducks and occasionally sells one that doesn't push the person over into requiring a use permits and that's why it's relevant to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 know what kinds of things that are -- these are questions, legitimate questions that she raised and I thank you. MR. REIGER: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything else you'd like us to ask? MS. MATTHEWS: I would truly like to say that I feel that I don't know what percent of property Mr. Reiger has covered, you didn't mention that, you mentioned on all the others what percentage -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It was not turned down for that, ma'am. MS. MATTHEWS: Oh okay. MEMBER SIMON: It's not a violation. MS. MATTHEWS: Well, I object to them. I live across the street from them. They're clearly in my view. The lot is very, very crowded with buildings. There is significant noise from the chiseling. I do have to say that I retired out here. Most of the neighbors are there only in the summer months and may not be disturbed by it, but I find it very disturbing. So those are my thoughts, my feelings and I hope you will consider that. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 194 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MS. MATTHEWS: You're 2008 Thank you. very welcome. MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? So we are only closing this hearing pending a copy of the C of O; is that correct? MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not so sure that you want to close it. I'm not so sure that there isn't something else required. I don't know if we need to comment on it. It seems to me like Walz kicks in here somewhere. If I understand it right, an accessory structure in a front yard has to meet a principle setback. This garage, even as it exists, is three and a Walz was more than five years half feet. Now, ago. ago. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just about. MEMBER DINIZIO: Just about five years MEMBER SIMON: About 2002. MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, Walz was turned down before (inaudible} because Walz was December -- no, it's a year. So Walz was PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (63~)878-8355 t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 Disapproval. MEMBER WEISMAN: MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. But again, if we're basing it on something that's -- may not be there because it doesn't have a CO as it exists -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't we -- why don't we close the hearing as to all testimony and very simply whoever wants to investigate this or if you want me to investigate it -- MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't mind going to PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 about three years ago. So maybe it doesn't apply, but I'm just -- that's what I want to look at. I want to be assured that they're not being issued a permit here where they probably shouldn't be. I think the setback if it matches the garage is fine with me, at three foot, but if the setback of the garage is in question because of Walz then I'm not satisfied with where the sheds are. MEMBER WEISMAN: Wouldn't that have been in the Notice of Disapproval though? MEMBER DINIZIO: I would think so. I would think that it would be. You know, I know I always say, look at the Notice of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 the Building Inspector. MEMBER WEISMAN: No, we just need to get clarification on the Notice from the Building Inspector in terms of any other particular issues that we need to consider when making the decision before us. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, it's almost the question I asked down on King Street. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you anticipating reconstructing the house? MEMBER SIMON: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, which could or could not have an impact that we have before us. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, to bring us the CO, right? on the application so you're going You're going to bring us the CO for the garage? MR. REIGER: I have the CO for the garage. I will submit that. BOARD ASST.: Do you intend to mail that to the Building Inspector? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I think I want the building permit also. I want the date certainly because -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: If Walz comes into play at all, it's likely on the second floor that he's -- over the garage that he's got an application for a C of O pending. MEMBER SIMON: That he wasn't turned down for. MEMBER WEISMAN: Hmm. He wasn't turned down for it so it's still pending. So we can just get clarification. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's all we need, sir. MEMBER WEISMAN: Because all we need is the information relevant to the setback of the garage preexisting in order to -- BOARD ASST.: Well, the setback of the garage was approved by variance 25 years ago. There's a copy of that in the file. MEMBER WEISMAN: Then we don't even need anymore information. MEMBER DINIZIO: We would if they were enlarging it. MEMBER WEISMAN: But that's a different application. I mean right now the only application before us has to do with the front yard setbacks for the shed, not even the side PuglieseCou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 a general statement, he's in compliance. MEMBER WEISMAN: sir. Okay, so therefore Right. I mean it's instructive that the Notice did not indicate side yard setback as an issue, only front yard setbacks for the two sheds. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So -- MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean, either we have to go with the Notice of Disapproval, which stipulates the area of variances required -- BOARD ASST.: It's only for the sheds, that's what they denied. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, so I don't -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 yard setbacks for the sheds. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As long as Mr. Reiger renews his building permit, okay, and the Building Department is happy with that, he would not be turned down. MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would only be if he didn't renew his building permit and he was in violation of not renewing it -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and I'm in no way directing that question to you, I'm making 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, BOARD ASST.: That's all that was requested to be denied also, though. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, are we ready? MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I think if I get a building permit and the CO exists I can (inaudible) based on that. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're alright with that. Okay. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, good. Close it subject to receiving both the building permit and the -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Did you give him a date? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The CO will come from Mr. Reiger and whatever else is -- MR. REIGER: I have CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: permit, too. Okay. MR. REIGER: Sure. them. SO. MEMBER DINIZIO: 199 2008 I do have both of Within the next week or MR. REIGER: Pardon me? MEMBER DINIZIO: Could you get it to us within the next week or so? MR. REIGER: Oh, tomorrow. PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 the building permit. And the building 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, MEMBER DINIZIO: MEMBER WEISMAN: 2008 Alright. Do you want to close -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am closing it subject to receipt of those two items. I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6133 - George Theodorakos [Member Oliva is present.] MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance under Section 280-15, based on the November 5, 2007 Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed addition to the dwelling, which places the existing swimming pool partly in a side yard location: 30-3-8." This is, as I 1855 Rocky Point Rd, EM; understand it, a consequence of the building of a sunroom addition, which if I understand it, in consequence of this will place one-quarter of this above ground swimming pool in a side yard. MS. TOTH: Correct. MEMBER SIMON: Can you speak to that, Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 ZBA Town of Southold please. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: February 28, 2008 We need your name. MS. TOTH: Hi, my name if Vicky Toth. I'm here on behalf of the property owner. T- O-T-H. As you can see the proposed sunroom will encroach into a very small portion of what will now be considered a side yard. The pool has been there since 2004 and the proposed sunroom is a minimal size. It's certainly not asking for anything that's oversized or, you know, larger than what would be in keeping with the area or encroaching on any neighbors' privacy, etc. As far as being able to avoid this, as you could see when you were at a site visit, even if we tried to reduce the size of the sunroom it would be so small it would just not even be worth pursuing putting the addition on the house. The property is quite large. It's one and a quarter acre and it's surrounded by trees, which create a nice natural privacy fence of natural, you know, that does not impact negatively on any of the neighbors as you can see and I believe that this is a very Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, minimal request. MEMBER SIMON: MEMBER DINIZIO: questions. MEMBER WEISMAN: 2008 I have no questions. No, I don't have any No questions. It's a can very minimal addition and (inaudible) you (inaudible) the (inaudible) front yard based on this very small right-of-way that's completely screened by evergreens, very mature evergreens. It's a very large property and I don't see any problems with (inaudible). MEMBER OLIVA: I don't have any questions either. MS. TOTH: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It looks like we're on a roll today and therefore I don't have any questions. It's clear. Mrs. Oliva has informed me she doesn't have any questions. We're going to ask the audience if they have any questions. We don't see any hands. So it appears that we can close this hearing. MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved. MEMBER SIMON: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 203 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 HEARING #6119 - John Corbley CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you Mr. Fitzgerald? MR. FITZGERALD: I'm fine, thank you, sir. How are you? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anything you'd like to add to this document that you sent to us? MR. FITZGERALD: No. I think the drawings that I gave you after our last get together -- BOARD ASST.: We're not hearing you. We're not hearing you. MR. FITZGERALD: Well, that would be even because I can't hear you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir. MR. FITZGERALD: I'm Jim Fitzgerald and I'm here for Mr. Corbley. As I was saying, after our last meeting we revised all the drawings to include the additional -- well, include changes that we talked about and additional information that you require, which are the roof overhangs on the front, on the east side and removed the -- or increased the PuglieseCou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 access space. In passing, let me say that the only thing that's standing in the way of heavier equipment going down that side are three posts and my experience with -- my limited experience with Fire Departments and firemen is that they would have no problem getting any vehicle down there that they wanted to get down there. The -- well the changes are fine with Mr. Corbley and, as I said, they cover all the things we discussed last time. So since you're on a roll -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, let me make the general statement. Is there anybody that would like to ask anything of this fine gentleman? MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I think all the (inaudible) is exactly what Mr. Fitzgerald stated and are very clear. MEMBER OLIVA: No. MEMBER SIMON: No. MEMBER OLIVA: No, he corrected everything. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: are on a roll, sir. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 It appears that you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 205 2008 Is there anybody that would like to speak for or against this application in the room? Seeing none, I'll make a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision for later. MEMBER OLIVA: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING %6107 - Thomas and Margaret Noone MEMBER OLIVA: "Request for Variances under Section 280-18 (Bulk Schedule), based on the Building Inspector's October 30,2007 amended Notice of Disapproval concerning two lots proposed with an area of less than 40,000 square feet in and less than 150 feet of width (frontage) and on less than 175 feet of depth in this R-40 Low-Density Residential Zone District, located along the westerly side of Sigsbee Road, commencing approximately 210 feet south of the Main Road, Mattituck; Map of Mattituck Park Properties; CTM 143-1-4-1." MRS. MOORE: Thank you. today Mr. and Mrs. Noone are if there are any issues that I have with me here, so again, they can help us with they're prepared to speak. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just point Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold out to you that Mr. friends for years. 206 February 28, 2008 and Mrs. Noone have been I grew up on Sigsbee Road. I still retain two properties on Sigsbee Road and Mrs. Noone's mother and father were both personal friends of my parents. I have no direct connection to either one of them, except on a friendly basis. We belong to the same association. I don't think that really indicates that I have to recuse myself. MEMBER SIMON: I don't know. It sounds to me that it's a pretty clear case if you're going to talk about it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I -- that I'm going to talk about it? MEMBER SIMON: that you (inaudible) No, the fact that you said to sound like a preface that you were going to recuse yourself. MEMBER WEISMAN: You've disclosed. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You're disclosing. There's no requirement of recusal if there's no financial benefits being incurred. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: interest in the property. other than the fact that many, many, many years. Fine. I have no I have no interest I've known them for Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MRS. MOORE: Okay, thank you. Well, they have been long time Mattituck residents for many, many, many years. This property, which is on the Map of Mattituck Estates, I think. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mattituck Park Properties. MRS. MOORE: Mattituck Park District Properties, thank you. This piece of property consists of three lots in that subdivision and when you look up and down Sigsbee Street you'll find that -- and I did the calculations, I'll give it to you for the record -- Sigsbee Road goes way down. There are many, many lots here. Well over 60 -- almost 70 lots on Sigsbee Road alone and when you look at each of these individual properties I did the calculations in that you have to break it up into two tax maps because it does appear on two separate tax maps. On tax map 143, which is closest to the main road, of the 22 lots that I counted that are the residential lots, 13 of them are 6,000 square feet in size. The rest of them are double lots which are the 12,000 square feet PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 in size. So 59% of the parcels that are within that tax map book or District Section - - 59% of them are smaller than the proposed lots that we're sense. Tax lot of Sigsbee Road, to create or resubdivide in a 144, which is the southern end there are, from my calculations, 46 lots in total and of those 58% of those lots are 6,000 square feet. Again, 58% of the lots that are on Sigsbee are also less than the lot sizes that we propose. We have -- you've seen the property. The lot is the three subdivide -- three filed map lots together. The house that Mr. and Mrs. Noone have lived in and their mother had owned prior to them is situated on the furthest northerly lot. That would be lot 4 of the filed map and the reality is that on Sigsbee Road the lots that are larger, which would consist of double the file map size. There are none that are triple, which is the case here. The ones that are double you're finding that the homes are being built out as quite large and really out of character with the size of the lots of the community. So that the reality is that the smaller Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, the lot Sigsbee 209 2008 the more in character it is with the Road development. The houses that are built on double lots are many times nicely placed on the property, but are much larger. They're the ones that have been rebuilt have to kind of build into the property. We suggested making this application or made this application with the intention of splitting the properties evenly. Half of the one filed map with half of the other lot, so that each lot would approximate 10,000 square feet and my letter to you on January 4th I gave you the specific lot area dimensions that I could calculate from the filed map and lot 4 and one-half of lot 5 equal 10,496.75 and lot 6 and half of lot 5, the northerly half of lot 5, is 10,510.75 square feet. Now these are substantial variances because we have one-acre zoning; however, if you looked again at the character of the area as I've described, the majority of the lots on Sigsbee Road are 6,000 square feet. So it is well within the character of the area and in this particular case Mr. and Mrs. Noone's property has been severely impacted by the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 210 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 construction of the CVS. The CVS pharmacy is a lovely building, well designed, but the egress, ingress -- primary ingress, egress to CVS off of Sigsbee is directly in front of the Noone's home and that has created both financial impact and just quality of life impact to them in the way the property has been developed. They -- their family bought the property before Dickerson's Marina was developed, certainly before CVS was developed, and over time that area has become very commercial. The creation of the separate lot as I said evening out the three filed map lots that have merged together will give -- will have the house, but will create a lot that will give them an opportunity, if they wish down the line, if they wanted to push away from CVS or have family or just give alternatives to the family, will give an extra lot that can be developed. Again, the lot would be developed in accordance with similarly sized properties here, which, given the size of the property, would have to have 15-foot setbacks, and really could be developed very easily. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, I have -- as part of my file, notice to the property owner that 211 2008 we did send is now the owner of the little -- the restaurant that's been closed down, TFC Holdings LLC. That transferred ownership and they never picked up the certified mailing. So I just happened to know who was the owner and I contacted him and he sent a letter in support so I have that, but he also pointed out that most likely, and it was in fact the case, that the 1983 tax map had these parcels separated. It had lot 4 and 5 where the house is as one parcel, that would have been tax map 3, and the vacant lot, which I gave you a survey, which showed when the mother bought the property independently, that would have been lot 6. That was acquired at a later time and that had its own survey and its own tax map. So the tax map showed these properties as separate properties and again the property got merged when mom merged the properties before it was given or actually sold to Mr. and Mrs. Noone. So we are trying to re-subdivide. We don't have a waiver of merger situation here or anything, but we are trying to resubdivide PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 with lots that are in character. The lot that is presently in existence is really out of character of the area. So I'll put that on the record for you and I made seven copies for the members of the Board. I also have -- these Google Earth maps are wonderful, but this one actually is a map that was reviewed by the Planning Board using the Town's GIS program and I have, they were kind enough to share it with me at the Planning Board meeting, I have that and I have made copies of it. So again you can -- I know you're all familiar with Sigsbee Road and I have to put it on the record and I don't mean to be insulting because you're all local and you know the area quite well, it does show the character again of the area and the fact that there are many, many homes that are all built out on these undersized parcels and the zoning here of one acre really does not the reflect the way the community has developed. So again in support of our application to create two more conforming lots I'm going to submit the aerial photograph that the Town used and again, I was surprised and maybe that's my PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 death nell since the Planning Board thinks it's okay, but the Zoning Board is (inaudible) usually if the Planning Board doesn't entertain an opinion, but I was quite surprised that they actually felt -- certainly they don't condone variances, but on the other hand they said given the circumstances and the character of the area, that the lots that we're creating are well within the character of that area. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Has the Planning Board submitted a recommendation? MRS. MOORE: Yes. It was submitted to the Board. I think you got it yesterday, late yesterday. BOARD ASST.: Yesterday afternoon and they were in support. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: Okay. MRS. MOORE: That was very nice of them to do that because often times I'm frustrated that they don't give their opinion when it's pretty much very obvious from the situation, but they did in this case. MEMBER OLIVA: That was going to be my Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 question. Now, why not go to the Planning Board and get approval for the subdivision and come to us for the area variance? MRS. MOORE: Well, no. Jurisdictionally they don't have authority to review nonconforming situations. So I actually had to go -- I did do simultaneous applications and they have sent you a recommendation, but I can't go to the Planning Board until the Zoning Board has approved the creation of the undersized lots. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. You can go to them, but they can't create a nonconforming lot, that's what it is. MRS. MOORE: Exactly, yeah. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So this is -- you did submit an application to them, I assume? MRS. MOORE: Yes. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, so this is the right way to do it. BOARD ASST.: You did go to them? MRS. MOORE: I went to them and submitted everything that you have and I do have to go back to them and I will have to go to the Health Department as well because we are re- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 subdividing the parcel. It would show up as a double lot and a single lot under the 1981 tax map, which is what they rely on, but when you do a lot line change or a resubdivision the Health Department wants to get involved. So once I'm finished with you, assuming you approve it, I then go to the Planning Board and Health Department, simultaneously. MEMBER OLIVA: Cause actually -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else, Ruth? MEMBER OLIVA: Well, they're looking at all the properties on Sigsbee Road, really. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER OLIVA: One of these certainly fits in and looking for additional properties that are not that expensive for people of moderate incomes to build a house to me makes sense. MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions. I'm just pleased that you're not trying to persuade us to divide them into three properties. MRS. MOORE: Well, that counts in our favor then. They wanted three, but I do PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 216 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 counsel clients before coming in. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well it seems to me that the argument for the subdivisions is a balance between character of the neighborhood on the one side and the fact that you're asking for 73.75% variance on one lot and a 73.72% variance, which is beyond substantial. MRS. MOORE: Oh, I don't -- believe me I recognize that. MEMBER WEISMAN: Way over -- but so what we have to do is examine which argument is more compelling here. Whether we override zoning and the entire purpose of up-zoning is based upon character of the neighborhood. I'm just summarizing my understanding. We have (inaudible) of the Board members secondary consideration that you put forth had to do with an increased value by having a separate lot to sell to mitigate some of the decreased value of their developed property because of commercialization; however, I think that's a consequence of preexisting zoning. The business zoning was all there along main road, just the fact that it's become more intense is the nature of what happens. So it isn't as PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town though there was residential zoning all down and it's transformed. Anyway that's it. That was just a summary of your -- so I understand the arguments that you're putting forth. MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I ask a question? don't know, I was it's not a waiver. to me, Pat? MRS. MOORE: to the original 217 of Southold - February 28, 2008 up and sitting here wondering how Can you just explain that Well, I'm not actually going property line. I MEMBER DINIZIO: I know, but it's 21,000 feet altogether, something like that. I mean it's, you know, the entire lot is nonconforming by half. MRS. MOORE: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: By 100%, let's put it that way. If you multiply the square footage by itself you would still be nonconforming or be pretty close to conforming. I'm wondering to myself, you know, where our code says that, you know, nonconforming lots must merge, you know, until they're conforming and that's really what happened here and I agree with your premise here that they probably had no PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 way of knowing unless they subscribed to the Suffolk Times and heard about the merger law, but I'm wondering how you get by the fact that these are merged lots and you're basically asking us to unmerge them. MRS. MOORE: Well, that's the whole purpose of an area variance for creation of undersized lots. We don't -- the whole area variance law is for exactly this type of purpose that the law changes and changes, but circumstances like these where you have preexisting doesn't change and we really have to focus here on the character of the area impact that, you know, how in this particular instance I have a client that has a house way over on the one lot with a double -- with two more lots to the side of it and it really in this instance I have a lot -- this is the only lot that is triple size. When you go back, I only did one because it's a color rendering, but I actually mapped out all the lots that are 6,000 square feet versus the lots that are similarly split as -- well, I didn't mark the ones that are double because that's obvious what they are. They're PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 219 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 double the size of 6,000 square feet, but I also found on the southerly size closer to Peconic Bay Blvd., lots that are similarly split as we're proposing taking -- let me give you the full tax map number, it's 144-2 lots 15, 16, 20.1 and 21. Those were split very similar -- exactly like we're proposing and I couldn't find if they were done technically like through an application or they just got done before, because this is such an old map, it may have been done by deed before zoning laws went into effect. So I didn't -- I wasn't able to find them, but -- so they were done at one point in time. So we actually have examples that are exact, these four lots are exactly what we're proposing and with all the other lots being either doubled or as I said 59 or 58% of these tax maps being less in size, 6,000 square foot. MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, I -- that same argument could be made for unmerging the lots. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. The more direct answer to your question and I mean this just the way it sounds, I don't mean it Pugliese CourtReportingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 220 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 facetiously, the reason that this isn't a waiver is because it's a subdivision. MRS. MOORE: This is truly a subdivision. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You could seek to subdivide anything. MRS. MOORE: Right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Now, it's a two- step process. You need to get the Planning Board to agree and because it's substandard, you need to get this Board to agree. MRS. MOORE: Right. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: So it -- you know - MRS. MOORE: Right. MEMBER DINIZIO: So is it just a subdivision? ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Anybody whose lots merge can come to you for a waiver or they can go to the Planning Board to try to subdivide them again. MRS. MOORE: Right, yeah. I mean waiver in a sense has kind of been lost by the wayside that the standards of waiver actually more difficult, the standard is higher, than an area variance. Pugliese Cou~ Repo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: variance, that's correct. MRS. MOORE: So to me this February 28, 2008 Than an area 221 -- I didn't have the option of a waiver merger because I'm not going to the original lot lines. This is truly a subdivision, pure, even though they're very small lots it's standard subdivision. So MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. MRS. MOORE: And we'll have the park in -- I think they're going to impose a park and playground be on us on one lot, the creation of one lot. ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. MRS. MOORE: Much as that is unfair, but that's part of the process, unless it changed. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, thank you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, is there anybody else who would like to speak in favor of this application or against it? Oh, yes. Peggy come on up here, I'm sorry. Come on up here, Mrs. Noone. MRS. NOONE: Good afternoon, I'm Margaret Noone. I just wanted to say that the lot across the street, directly across the street PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 was residential and it's been turned into commercial and I don't know that that can happen to my house, but that's what they did without notification to me or anybody around us and things like that have happened and that's brought down the value more of my property. We're trying to keep the rest of the property for our children so they have something cause the value of our home has gone down the tubes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. MRS. NOONE: Thank you. MRS. MOORE: Yes, she points out and you probably are very familiar with the CVS development, which took several properties and put them together and redeveloped that whole corner. So CVS was a significant redevelopment of that corner. Yes, it was all commercial zoning, but they were different uses. You had Morchelle's Plumbing and Heating, which was a very innocuous use and now you have CVS and the traffic and the activity associated with it. So there are changing times and they're here to try to seek whatever relief they can, but I will put this, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 223 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 since I have my one and only (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak for or against this application? Seeing no hands, I made a motion closing the hearing, reserving decision until later. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) HEARING #6106 - Harbes Family Farm, LLC MEMBER WEISMAN: "Location of Property: North Side of Sound Avenue and West Side of Hallock Lane (a private road), Mattituck; CTM 1000-120-1-4 containing 7.5 acres: CTM 1000- 112-1-7.6 containing 8 acres. The applicant has applied for building permits the existing farm stand and a proposed change of use from farm buildings to a winery/tasting room. Requested are Variances based on the Building Inspector's amended Notice of Disapproval dated February 6, 2008. The reasons stated for disapproving the building permit applications are as follows: The as-built additions and alternations to the existing farm stand constructed without PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 a building permit prior to 1997 are not permitted, pursuant to the Code of the Town of Southold in place when the construction work was completed without a building permit, citing: 1) Article III, Section 100-31A.2(a)l, which states that all buildings for display and retail sales of agricultural and nursery products grown on premises shall not exceed one thousand (1,000) square feet in floor area. Also, major additions and alterations had been done increasing the size of the existing farm stand without a building permit, and in 1989 a certificate of occupancy was issued for a new farm stand measuring 14 feet by 14 feet in size, however between 1989 and 1997, additions and alterations were made to that farm stand increasing its size from 14 feet by 14 feet in size to 2,441 square feet. 2) Article III, Section 100-31A2. (a)3, which states off-street parking as PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 required in the parking schedule shall be provided and shall be approved by the Planning Board, and 3) Section 280-13A. (4)C, for the reasons that the winery structures shall be set back a minimum of 100 feet from a major road. The Proposed conversion of existing farm buildings to winery buildings s permitted , as the winery structures are required to be set back a minimum of 100 feet from a major road, and Buildings/Facilities 1, 2, 3, and 4 and other construction-buildings, are less than the 100 feet from Sound Avenue and less than 100 feet from Hallock Lane. 4) Section 280-13A.4(D), which states the winery shall obtain site plan approval. Okay, there are several issues going on here and I have my notes on how to characterize it, but perhaps it would be best to turn it over to you. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to preface this by saying that we were two hours PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 behind and we realized we were approaching that one hour situation behind again. We do have an appointment, which should not take long, with special counsel who just walked in at 2:30 and we will be back. So we would like you to present the case for ten minutes and we were hoping that that would be a half hour, but since the other hearing took until five after, so that's the story. MS. MESIANO: I'll try to -- I've worked very hard on my notes to make it as succinct as I can, so I'll give it my best shot. My name is Catherine Mesiano and I'm appearing on behalf of Harbes Family Farm LLC on this application and I'll try to address the issues point by point and not overlap and confuse anything and I will try not to be redundant and repeat anything you've already said. So we're in an AC zone and uses that we have are permitted under the zoning code. The first item we'll address is the farm stand. There's been some discussion about what exactly comprises the farm stand. It seems that each agency in the Town does their math a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTran$criptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold little bit differently. 227 February 28, 2008 So I did give you a spreadsheet with a breakdown on the square footage of the -- all of the improvements to the property. So we have a farm stand retail area, the walled enclosure itself, of 725 square feet. BOARD ASST.: 725? MS. MESIANO: 7-2-5. BOARD ASST.: On the farm stand. MS. MESIANO: The actual structure of the farm stand is 725 square feet. In the body of my application I did breakdown other numbers, but I will add that the original 196 square feet has a CO that was issued in 1989. There was a building permit and a subsequent CO and, I believe that CO number was 18936. The Building Department has made a determination that the additions and alterations to the farm stand occurred between August 15, 1990 and May 13, 1997 and the relevance of those dates I will explain. The 1990 date being the date of the issuance of the CO pursuant to the building permit that was issued in 1989. The Building Department cites Article III Section 100-31A.2(a)l PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 stating that all buildings for display and retail sales of agriculture and nursery products shall not exceed 1000 square feet as a determining factor of the disapproval for the farm stand. We believe that chapter 135 Farm stands, adopted on May 13, 1997, which is the other date I previously mentioned, should prevail. 135-3 items A through G set forth the requirements and conditions for the issuance of a building permit for a farm stand. I won't reiterate all of them, but the pertinent two are (A) no farm stand shall be in excess of 1000 square feet in floor area and the other pertinent point was the setbacks, which would be item (F) the farm stand shall be set back a minimum of 50 feet from the adjoining public road; however, 135- 5, which deals with nonconforming farm stands states that a farm stand that existed on the date of the adoption of this law, which does not conform to the provisions of this chapter, shall be deemed to be a nonconforming building and shall be subject to the provisions within this code for nonconforming buildings. So to paraphrase and fill in the blanks, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 I would extrapolate that to mean our farm stand existed on 5/13/97. It is larger than 1000 square feet. It is set back more than 50 feet from the front lot line. It is a nonconforming building and subject to the provisions for the nonconforming buildings with conforming uses under that provision of the code. One point that I would like to clarify in the application on page 2, the area variance reasons, after reviewing my application I think I should correct the question stated, has the variance been self-created, and I would change my answer to no because in light of the Chapter 135 and the provisions for nonconformity I would say that this is not a self-created hardship. The farm stand is a preexisting nonconforming structure with a conforming use. If you'd like, since we want to segment this, do you want me to stop and do you want me to discuss just the farm stand? MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a good idea. MS. MESIANO: Okay. Do you have questions? PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure. I was going to ask what your argument was going to be for the reason that you're applying, it would appear, for an area -- at least originally, I see it going in a different direction -- the application I was assuming was for an area variance in bulk schedule for being over 1000 square feet when, typically, one would need a special exception permit for a farm stand over 1000 square feet. MS. MESIANO: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: So my question was why are you presenting it that way? As what I perceive to be an area variance rather than a special exception permit and I believe what you're arguing is that it should be exempt altogether based upon this preexisting nonconforming size, but conforming use. MS. MESIANO: That's correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: Is that accurate? MS. MESIANO: That's correct and also the Building Department wrote the Disapproval based on the code that was in effect at the time that the activity or construction took place and that was that period up to 1997. So PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 231 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 rather than dealing with a disapproval based on the code as it's written today, it was based on the code as it was written at the time the activity occurred, but to sum up, yes, your statement is correct. I'm not seeking a special permit and I essentially am not asking for a variance for the size because it is preexisting nonconforming with a conforming use. MEMBER WEISMAN: So are you asking for a reversal of the Notice? MS. MESIANO: In the first instance, I would ask for a reversal and, absent a reversal, I would then request the Board consider this as a request for a variance to the zoning code, but I do believe that the farm stand portion of the code Chapter 135, which was written after the basis of the disapproval, Section 131, I would think that that would take precedence since that is the most, how shall I put it, is the prevailing code as far as farm stands are concerned. You could disapprove it under an old code or excuse it altogether under the new code and in the third instance consider it a preexisting PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 nonconforming use with a conforming -- let me correct that, a preexisting nonconforming structure with a conforming use. MEMBER WEISMAN: Because should this proceed as an area variance in bulk schedule we now have, say based on the 1000 square feet allowed by code, and an interpretation that suggests 2,441 square feet in total on this particular farm stand that would represent certainly more than a 150% variance from the Board. MS. MESIANO: Right and on that interpretation of those numbers I would have to question that because taken into account is the walk-in box, which is a fixture not a structure. It's a moveable fixture. Display, roofed over display area, which is not enclosed, has no walls, it's just an extension of the roofline covered from the weather, which is not actually structure. There is not a floor, it's all finished in gravel. So it's still outdoor space and the display and prep area, which is the backside of the counter area and I would concede that that's part of the physical structure denoted on the site Pugliese CourtRepo~ingand Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 plan as farm stand and that gives us just slightly over 1000. MEMBER WEISMAN: I did read your spreadsheet or attempted to read it (inaudible) who was on first. I think I managed to figure it out. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we have to hold this up. I apologize, Ms. Mesiano, and we're going to hold that thought. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we both have a ton of (inaudible). CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We do apologize. This is highly irregular, we don't normally do this. We just want you to know that, okay. There is a particular pressing problem that we must discuss in executive session. BOARD ASST.: Not on this application. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not on this application, we assure you. Okay. BOARD ASST.: We were running two hours behind today (inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: We had a very contested swimming pool. MS. MESIANO: Oh, I'm glad I missed it. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're holding this Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 hearing in abeyance and recessing it for approximately 10 to 15 minutes and we will be back. We hope we will be back. Okay, we stopped you in the middle of a sentence, Ms. Mesiano. BOARD ASST.: square feet. MS. MESIANO: Okay. Slightly over 1000 discussing the calculations and how the area was determined and I was mentioning the spreadsheet that I had provided and had given a breakdown of the various areas and how the area that was denoted per area and I think the last thing -- point I was trying to make was that of the farm stand we have -- I'll repeat it just so that we all get our bearings again. Our farm stand retail area is 725 square feet. The original 900 and -- let me back up. 196 square feet of which has a CO that was issued in 1989 or '90, I believe it was 1990 based on that other date. So we have a CO on the original 196 square feet of the present 725 square foot structure and we're seeking relief for as- built 529 square feet. In my opinion, the PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 Right. We have -- we were 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 farm stand retail and the display prep area 235 is the use of the space denoted farm stand on the site plan. The roof over display area of 1600 square feet is open-air area with a simple roof structure, but no walls, and the walk-in box, which is a fixture, a moveable fixture, is comprised of 307 square feet, 3-0-7. MEMBER WEISMAN: So your basic challenge is that they are calculating a total that is not properly defined as retail. MS. MESIANO: Yes, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: area is not, in fact, stand, but a cover? MS. MESIANO: Yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: I The roofed-over display really part of a farm just want to make sure I understand your arguments. Okay. Since it's very useful to take these one at a time, I think I'm quite clear on what your arguments are and how the notice was written and why. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to take questions, if anybody has any questions, but I want to continue this because this is really a position that the applicants are taking on all of these cases. We're really missing a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 collection of data really at this particular hearing when we made this (inaudible) toward the end. MEMBER WEISMAN: continue the -- Do you want me to CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, at my perception of this -- three specific issues here. MS. MESIANO: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: One was farm stand. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. Continue, yes. so then let's look of the -- I see the size of the MEMBER WEISMAN: And what kind of relief was being sought. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that's what we're talking about. Another one -- well, there's two others that I can see at least. One has to do with the specific use of the agricultural buildings that are now being proposed for winery buildings and the third are straightforward setbacks of existing structures relative to the code requirements for those buildings for winery uses relative PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 to Hallock Lane and the North Road. Perhaps the setbacks are a little less complicated. MS. MESIANO: Okay, why don't we fast forward to that? The winery buildings setbacks, the Disapproval stated that "winery structures are required to be setback a minimum of 100 feet from a major road," direct quote out of the code. Primarily, the code does not define the term major road. It does have definitions of road in other context, but the exact term "major road" is not defined. I went to the Town Engineer and asked his advice on this matter. Is there a definition somewhere else that I'm not picking up on and he confirmed that, no, there is no place in the code that defines a "major road." Primarily as -- well I said that once already, I won't say that again. Further, Hallock Lane is not a -- I can't consider Hallock Lane to be a major road because Hallock Lane is nothing more than a private right-of-way. There are two deeds that comprise the ownership of Hallock Lane and each -- the deeds have been in existence a PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 long time and in 1966 there was a boundary agreement signed between the then parties to set forth the precise definition, the legal definition or description, if you will, of the area that comprises that roadway and what part is owned by which party and the terms of their cross-easements to each other and I have a copy, which I can give the Board -- CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: that. MS. MESIANO: -- but We would appreciate basically it is a private right-of-way. It's maintained privately, it's owned by two individuals and there are cross-easements from each individual to the other as far as the fee title owners and then there are four or five additional property owners at the very north end to the east that have easements across that, but have no fee interest in that. If you'll excuse me one second, I'll give you that. I'm not putting my hands on it, so I'll give it to you before I leave. So I have difficulty accepting that this needs to be setback a minimum of 100 feet from Hallock Lane because I don't know how Hallock PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 Lane becomes a "major road". The fourth structure and I believe that's called -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Building 1, that would be building 1, 89 feet from Sound Avenue. MS. MESIANO: Yes. Building 1 being set back at 89 feet from Sound Avenue, I can certainly concede that that's a major road with no doubt in my mind; however, that structure is located behind the existing farm stand. It could be moved if it were necessary, but I don't see the value in doing something like that because it is shielded from the road by another structure and other barriers to prevent any traffic from reaching that. So that distance and that definition I don't have a problem with, but I certainly do have a problem accepting the definition of major road, because Hallock Lane just doesn't fit the definition. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need to ask a question. Can you clearly define what these four buildings -- MS. MESIANO: Yes, yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- are going to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - comprise and I know there's situation here. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: with you? MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, MS. MESIANO: I tried, spreadsheet for you, to set 240 February 28, 2008 a phase 1, phase 2 Is that alright sure. in developing this that forth so I'll work off of that and then refer to this site plan when I need to. The four structures that comprise the winery use are denoted as building 1 -- I'm sorry, building 2 on the site plan is 372 square feet and that is an existing barn on the property and it is used for agricultural purposes. Building 3 is also an existing barn on the property of 572 square feet. Building 4 is an existing barn of 3,198 square feet upon which or to which it is proposed to add a deck of 4,431 square feet. So the three buildings that I've just mentioned, it's proposed to renovate and restore those structures for the purpose of using them as wine tasting rooms and the facility denoted as building 3 would be the wine making facility. The fourth building is Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 building 10, which is intended to be used as a wine tasting room and that is 326 square feet and that is a -- that is an as-built structure. We refer to it as a shed, at this point, that is what it's being used for there are no -- there's no heat, insulation, etc. It's strictly storage at this point, but nonetheless, part of the agricultural use. So those are the four buildings that are referred to in the disapproval with respect to the setback requirement of CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 107 100 feet. Where is building MS. MESIANO: Building 10 is located behind, that would be north of and west, behind and westerly of the main farm stand building. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, okay. MS. MESIANO: Okay, you see it? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, yes. Now -- go ahead. MEMBER WEISMAN: Building 2, will all of these -- you've just indicated building 3 will be as proposed would be for wine making. MS. MESIANO: Right. That'll be the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-835S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - production facility. MEMBER WEISMAN: wine tasting room. MS. MESIANO: MEMBER WEISMAN: proposed additional wine tasting? 242 February 28, 2008 Building 10 will be a Yes. And building 4 with a deck will be used for also MS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER WEISMAN: And sales? MS. MESIANO: Ed, the large building would that also be sales? MR. HARBES: Hello, my name is Ed Harbes and I believe the question was how will the deck be used. MEMBER WEISMAN: Not just the deck, (inaudible) assume that -- what I was asking was would that building be used for wine tasting and the sale of wine as well? MR. HARBES: In the general sense, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and the deck use is for customers to get outside and enjoy -- MR. HARBES: Primarily, yes. MEMBER WEISMAN: -- tasting their wine. MR. HARBES: Sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, we're trying to PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, speak to you so I'm just trying since you're so carefully going 243 2008 to be clear, over building by building, although it's actually in the application, but for the public record. MRS.MESIANO: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: So we've established building 4 and then building 2 is also wine tasting? MS. MESIANO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a question? MS. MESIANO: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would these all be used concurrently? MS. MESIANO: It's not really, correct me if I'm wrong, Ed, but it's my understanding that they have proposed it in this manner so that they have more flexibility as to the use of these structures, but it's not (inaudible) that all four buildings would be going full tilt at the same time. So the answer, no. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it is very unusual to have a whole series of tasting rooms on one site. You know, usually there's one or two tasting rooms and like a small -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 244 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MS. MESIANO: Right, well in this instance we're trying to work with the structures that we have because it's, you know, I think it's a given that this particular facility -- it's one of the first things you see when you enter Southold Town and, you know, when we talk about the character of an area and what creates the character, this certainly does set the tone for the character of the area, the architecture and history value. So we're trying to work with what's there and allow the Harbes family to grow into the process rather than to come to you this year and say we want a small tasting room and then next year come back to you and say we want a large tasting room. That -- I'll get into that when we discuss phase 1, phase 2 because the larger structure, building 4, is part of what's denoted on the site plan as phase 2. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. MS. MESIANO: So it does give them the ability to grow into the facility and it's -- you know, none of us know what will happen tomorrow much less a couple of years from now, PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - but the and the 245 February 28, 2008 larger facility we expect to grow into other facilities we're looking for the approval for the uses to give them the flexibility to stage things in an appropriate manner. If you have a small event, you might have a small wine tasting event or a musical event you might want to use the larger facility, you know, on a different weekend when it's not a big season you might use a smaller facility. So it's really for flexibility and for future growth. MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I think -- well, we'll just continue here and then we can -- MS. MESIANO: I'm sorry, I'd like to interject one other thing. This particular property that I will mention is not within the Town of Southold, it is within the Town of Riverhead but Martha Clara is the entire site is designated for wine tasting so they could put up a small tent or something or stage small events on the property. So it's not something that's not done. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're facilities are much larger than their needs. The old (inaudible) Barn that they spent about a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 246 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 million dollars redoing is basically their grand ballroom, so to speak. The tasting room itself and the facility that's adjacent and contiguous to it -- added to it, it's not contiguous to it, is basically an area where they have many of their functions, which do not include such things as weddings and other types of functions. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They can have a wedding there, but they don't normally do it cause they have a limitation on the amount of people -- MS. MESIANO: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- they can place in that facility and you're absolutely correct, in the summertime they do place a tent out there in the good weather and they may have a wedding going on in a different location out in the middle of the grape industry, basically. MS. MESIANO: Right. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The difference basically there is that we don't have this cluster that we're seeing here. This is a PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 247 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 learning experience for this Board to have three or four of these individual proposed buildings, okay, to be used possibly concurrently and that's something that I quite honestly have never seen before and, you know, it's an interesting situation. There's no question about it. MS. MESIANO: Well, we've -- I think I may have said earlier that we don't have the luxury of being able to design it from the ground up because we're dealing with what's there and trying to take advantage of the structures that are there, preserve as much as we can, yet, allow the Harbes to run a profitable business. You know, I don't want to get off, because I tend to do that, on a tangent, but one of the things that comes into play, which really isn't evident on its face is the Harbes' effort to do this is part of the larger picture when we talk about affordable housing and the exodus off of Long Island from young people. Mr. and Mrs. Harbes have adult children who would like to be part of the family business and if you have a 40- acre farm that supports a nuclear family and PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionSe~ice (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - the children grow up and say, to join the family business. 248 February 28, 2008 gee, we'd like Well the 40-acre farm is no longer going to support two nuclear families, so there has to be a way to expand the business -- the agricultural aspect of the business that will still support nuclear family 1 and then the upcoming new nuclear family, in this instance three or four of Mr. and Mrs. Harbes' children are involved with the family business. So in order for there to be opportunities to keep young people in the area and have employment that will provide them a living to enable them to stay in the area is really the driving necessity behind all of this. It's as simple as, you know, children growing. You're all familiar with the Harbes family and all the adult children have gone to Cornell and have various degrees in agricultural areas and are very -- they're the kind of young people you want to have as a foundation for the next generation of this town. So this is an effort to provide young people who have the talent, education and want to be able to stay home, which a lot of young children can't do for PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 ZBA Town of Southold February 28, 2008 economic reasons, and to perpetuate their family business and to be able to stay and live where they want to live. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you then go forward with this, if you don't mind, Leslie, could you go forward with this phase 1, phase 2 aspect so that we can begin to understand when phase 2 may kick in or whatever the case may be? MS. MESIANO: Yes, the conversion on buildings 2, soon as we can get all of the it's intended to do 3, and 10 as approvals. I would say that that would take the next year to accomplish, you know, from start to finish. Do you agree, Ed? MR. HARBES: Yes. The -- just a point of clarification there's two tasting rooms approximately 350 square feet plus or minus each, that's approximately 15 feet by 20 feet. That's easy to see that a room like that could quickly become crowded at a busy time of year. So we're proposing two tasting rooms available for use as soon as we can get the permitting and construction completed and then this larger 3,000 square foot barn that would be PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 250 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 maybe one or two years afterwards when we have the permitting we'll begin the construction process and it might take a year or two to actually have that online. So the first concern I could see where you're concerned why so many tasting rooms, these two are 300 square feet, which is 15 by 20 foot approximately. So this will give us a way to start operation as soon as possible, but to grow into it when time and permitting and resources permit. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Does permitting include the reconstruction of the building to the Town's specification, if they're so inclined. Is that part of the permitting process that you're referring to? MR. HARBES: Correct. First, was the initial approval, yes, you may have a 3000 foot tasting room there next to Hallock Lane and after the construction details are worked out to the Town's satisfaction pertaining to architecture and engineering and parking and lighting and all the other details, the construction would begin as soon as possible within a year or so. This is not something PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTran$criptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, really intended to be five years out. 251 2008 It's something within the first several years. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You suspect that the Town may require you to reconstruct these buildings to a higher standard than what they are now for the purposes of actual people going in, you know, you're not going to have them stand outside. They're going to come into the building, you know, to taste. MR. HARBES: Yeah, that's an excellent question. They're basically sound buildings, but they're old agricultural buildings and we would have to have the engineering be inspected to Town specifications and I'm a little unsure of exactly what they would be just yet, but whatever they are we would meet the basic requirements. MEMBER WEISMAN: May I address the question of use? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure. MEMBER WEISMAN: It's fairly clear that, I'm sure you're aware, anybody who's going to convert what was an agricultural storage building for human habitation understands that you'll have to bring these buildings up to PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 252 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 code in order to get a building permit, but having said that, since we're talking about uses, the various uses, first I want to say that as a local resident I love what you've done in the way of creating a destination for agri-tourism and I think it's a boon to our community. I'm one of those people who take their lives in their hands running across from the dairy farm to get the corn. So we'll have to talk about traffic impacts at some point, which really relates or speaks to the issue of site plan approval from the Planning Board and, of course, you will have to go through the whole SEQR process and, just so you're aware, the ZBA is not allowed to make final determinations without the full SEQR review having taken place. So we're now trying to get information from you, clarify some requests that you're asking for. There are multiple uses. I want to clarify in going from agricultural buildings to a winery use, are you looking for a use variance, a change in use, a special permit, precisely what, Cathy, from your legal perspective, is involved in going from an PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 253 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 agricultural storage building to a winery use on that property? MS. MESIANO: MR. HARBES: MS. MESIANO: MR. HARBES: Okay. Let me just -- I believe I can answer that. Okay. A number of years ago when I approached the Building Department about this project I was told that to convert a barn from a agricultural structure to a commercial and retail winery that's in fact what would be required is a change of use. So I do believe that is in fact one before this group. MEMBER WEISMAN: of the reasons we are Thank you. That's what I just wanted to be sure we understood. That is it a use variance that we're looking at relative to changing because the sales factor of going into commercial and retail is very different than agricultural. MR. HARBES: Correct and I would like to point out that many of the existing wineries in the area have gone through that very same process. The Hargrave facility was originally some sort of potato storage barn. The Bidell structure was some sort of agricultural barn PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 254 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 initially. I think we have that in common with most of -- many of the other wineries. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: inclined to allow this use, If this Board is so would it make sense and this is not a sarcastic statement in any way, to take one or two of these buildings and let them go through a transformation first and then worry about what we do later as we go down the line? I'm going to give you an example Jason Damiase (sic) is not only a friend of mine, he's a fellow fireman, okay. He's building Jason Vineyards right now, alright, but Jason's Vineyards, excuse me and he chose to take half of that barn that was back there or a little less than half to keep the integrity of that barn and he's going to use that, I suspect, as the tasting room from what he tells me. Alright, he's going through quite some jumps and hurdles to do that, alright, in the slicing of that barn in half and I'm just saying that I can understand the use aspect of what you're looking for but -- and I also can understand the possibility of the uniqueness PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 255 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 of these barns, these buildings that you want to, you know, alter or change to this point without losing that whole effect inside of the building. In some cases, you may be barred from doing that, but we're not hearing to design, but I'm just throwing this out to you. I would start with a couple of them first and then, you know, assuming the Board is so inclined. MR. HARBES: I agree that it would be an intuitive approach and I was inclined to do that initially myself, but I was told, to work to through the fairly complex planning process, it was better to present the whole project as much as we're capable of presenting it to the Town at this time to let them see it, not only in phase 1, but in phase 2 or beyond. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Or beyond, okay. MS. MESIANO: Yes, the Planning Board wants specifics because we came to them initially with just phase 1 and they wanted to see how we were going to treat the entirety. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's the purpose of the site plan, I assume. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER OLIVA: That's also the purpose of SEQR (inaudible) plan. MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me continue with the discussion about uses. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, go ahead. BOARD ASST.: Can you hear Member Oliva from where you are? UNIDENTIFIED: Yes. BAORD ASST.: Okay. MEMBER WEISMAN: One of the first, I will say that I agree with an earlier statement I think that you made that it's very -- I think it's very important for us in this community to respect the historic nature of our rural structures, our agricultural structures and to the best extent possible maintain them wherever feasible. So I think that you have a wonderful feel and it's a historic growth over time of some of those little buildings and, as an architect, I think it's a very positive approach toward attempting to expand your business uses to salvage those buildings. Now, there are issues that look at intensity of use because there are already on this property a large range of different uses. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, Some use is strictly farm stand use. 257 2008 People like me would stop and buy various products that you grow or that you sell and have available for sale that you don't grow on the premises. There are also picnic areas, there's a residence actually on the premises at the moment. There are some hoop structures, there's a horse barn and horses. There's a corn maze, you know, there's a whole bunch of things going on and when you talk about a winery use because we've been successful in this area, you're talking often about buses that are on, you know, tours and so on and so the intensification of use of this agricultural property already now especially given the berry farm across the street and the flowers and so on which I love, I think we all do, begins to look at a great deal of congestion in that area and the North Road being a very small byway at that point, we all know what happens it's like the rural LIE during harvest time and so on and we're all stuck bumper and bumper and trying to figure out where to pull over. The new parking lot that's across Hallock Pugliese CourtReporting and TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Lane from you, 258 Southold - February 28, 2008 tell me a little bit about how that's used. Are your customers, I see you've barricaded off some of the area for the farm stand where you're driving -- we used to be able to pull right up and you've got like a split rail fence there now. I think you're obviously trying to address some of these traffic issues. There are two things, one is when a site is for quick sale where someone pulls up five minutes, buys the corn or whatever and goes. Then there's those who come for destination, who are there for a day picnicking with their kids and doing whatever they're doing and need long term parking and there's a lot of traffic congestion that would only suggest the need to start policing, you know, the traffic. How is that -- is that lot yours or is that somebody else's that you have a cross- easement with that you're now asking people to park in? Can you tell me about that? MR. HARBES: Certainly. Can you clarify which area in particular you're inquiring? MEMBER WEISMAN: Just to the east of your property, east of Hallock Lane. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 259 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MR. HARBES: That is a neighbor's property and we were interested in purchasing that property years ago when it was for sale, but instead a gentleman named Mr. Enamorado purchased the property and have used it for nursery production every since. He, in the effort of being a good neighbor, said we could use the area adjacent to Sound Avenue for our parking. MEMBER WEISMAN: a personal agreement? So you kind of have just MR. HARBES: Correct, we don't really own that property. It's his effort of being a good neighbor and being cooperative with us. MEMBER DINIZIO: Just a clarification, that also is not the subject of this application. The parking that you will propose for these structures in this application will have to be confined to the land in which you have those pieces of property. MR. HARBES: Correct, the parking that we provided on our site plan, I don't believe that parcel that we just talked about is even referred to in the calculations -- PuglieseCou~ Repo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 260 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MS. MESIANO: No. MR. HARBES: -- it was just extra. MEMBER WEISMAN: I was asking for my own curiosity. I park there when I shop. MS. MESIANO: If you'd like I can address and share with you some of the discussions we've had with the Planning Board -- MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. MS. MESIANO: -- about these issues because they've raised the similar that you have and what's not shown on the site plan at this time because the site plan is still a work in progress, you know, doing our work with the Planning Department it's intended that there will be some overflow parking areas designated on the north end of the site where the development rights are still retained and it'll be a grassy area not a paved or a gravel area, just an overflow parking area to handle during those heavier seasons and then there are some -- a couple of other sites or areas off-site that Mr. Harbes either owns or has control of where customers can park. Some of the property across the street is owned by the Harbes and during the heavy season they have PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 some traffic control and signage that directs people to park in certain areas. They've got personnel to help direct the traffic during the busy times and these are all things that we're dealing with with the Planning Board. As far as parking is concerned, under the code we exceed the amount of parking required, but from a practical perspective we all recognize the overflow that comes during the peak seasons in the fall and so on. So there is consideration for that and we're working on a solution, if you will, to that so that we can try to eliminate as much of any liability factors that are caused through signage, personnel who handle traffic, etc. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, obviously that's not within our jurisdiction. MS. MESIANO: Right. MEMBER WEISMAN: As part of SEQR we would be revisiting this on and off so it makes sense to try to describe all of the various parts that are going to go into making this happen. MS. MESIANO: There has been a meeting with the Traffic Committee -- PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 262 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER WEISMAN: Transportation Commission. MS. MESIANO: Transportation, I'm sorry, yes. That meeting was last Monday and nothing affirmative came out of it because they had just received the application, but again it's something that's being looked at very carefully through the Planning Department. Architectural Review Committee looked at it and, you know, had favorable comments with respect to the plans. They did also raise the issue of the parking and they were asking for there to be some further consideration, which didn't need to be asked for because that's one of our main things that we are focusing on with the Planning Board. MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, if parking winds up on the north as it is on the plans you've already submitted, you know, with your drainage plan and all that you've got parking indicated on the site plan -- MS. MESIANO: Right, there's a parking area {inaudible). MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it's accessed from Hallock Lane and it's interesting that Hallock PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 263 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 Lane is actually more paved and a little bit wider as you go toward the Sound than it is toward the front. I presume there would have to be some degree of improvement of that lane. MS. MESIANO: We're waiting for the Town Engineer to make recommendations. MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. Yes, that's -- then you're going to making right turns and left turns on to the North Road off of that so that's all stuff that would be looked at in SEQR, I presume. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What are you expecting from us at these initial hearings? How far do you expect this hearing to go today? MS. MESIANO: You said you were on a roll. No, huh? I tried. The main things that I want to deal with today are the area issues with respect to the farm stand and the setback issues with respect to the winery buildings from Hallock Lane and the fourth structure having a setback issue from Sound Avenue. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The initial gut feeling is that although Hallock Lane may not PuglieseCou~ ReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 264 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 be a major road, regardless of its ownership, which I never worry about title as long as people have rights of way on it, it may be a major road by the time this project is completed. So that's one of the main concerns that I have and I'm just mentioning that -- I'm only throwing that out, it's not a derogatory statement. MS. MESIANO: No, we're -- we knew that this was going to be a fact finding mission. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right. Now, Leslie is going back and I keep on cutting into her on the use aspect and very shortly, so I'll MEMBER WEISMAN: anyway. Actually, everything we she's going to hit me let her continue. Yes. Not in public I think we pretty well covered had questions about. You know, I wanted to make sure I understood the application fully and you're going to make sure that we have a copy of the details on the size of the farm stand that you've submitted to the court stenographer, which will become part of the record and we've brought up I think the major impact and intensity of uses, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-83S5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of the variety of 265 Southold - February 28, 2008 uses and we in fact need as I suspected a use variance on the winery structures to make it a commercial retail use on agricultural property. So those are the three things, the setbacks, the use variance and the area variance. MS. MESIANO: The only thing that I'm not a hundred percent comfortable in and I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, it's just that I would need to go back and do more research, is with respect to the use variance for the winery use of these buildings. The only thing that the Building Inspector said was that the winery would be referred to the winery use the structures not being far enough from Hallock Lane, but they just referred to the site plan being required. The Building Department did not cite the use of a -- the necessity of a use variance for the conversion of those structures to wineries. MEMBER DINIZIO: May I comment on that? MS. MESIANO: Yes, please. MEMBER DINIZIO: Because I think that Leslie may be confusing a use variance with change of use. PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 266 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MS. MESIANO: Well, I think that's what was confusing me. MEMBER SIMON: The standards for a use variance are rigorous. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I know. Thank you, Jerry, I misspoke. it, I misspoke. MS. MESIANO: Yeah, I not confused about That's why I questioned it because I was trying to get those factors straight. MEMBER WEISMAN: You're right. You're right. MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, so could I just clarify this, it'll take me two seconds. No, it'll take me two minutes. Now, as I see it, the reason why you're before us for the wineries are not because of cause that's a permitted use in this the use, zone. MS. MESIANO: Riuht. MEMBER DINIZIO: It's just because they're so close to that riuht of way. MS. MESIANO: Correct. MEMBER DINIZIO: that a Town road? Now, Hallock Road, is Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 267 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MS. MESIANO: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: It's not in any way a Town road? MS. MESIANO: No. MEMBER DINIZIO: How are you going to justify using that road for your uses? How does that -- how do you get to that point? MS. MESIANO: There is a boundary agreement and cross-easements which I mentioned earlier and I will provide the Board with the documentation that's been provided to me with respect to that area. MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so it's fine for you to use that as your -- whatever. Now, my assumption is parking will be taken care of by the Planning Board. There will be some curbing I suppose, controlling of that traffic in some way that is not present? MS. MESIANO: I wouldn't -- I don't -- I won't go so far as to say curbing because I don't know that that specifically will be used, but whether it be by use of fencing and signage -- MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm talking about controlling how people -- the ingress and PuglieseCourtReportingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 268 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 egress of that -- MS. MESIANO: Controlling -- right. MEMBER DINIZIO: -- property is going to be not as it is now. MS. MESIANO: Yes, yes. Right, that's a very, very strong area of focus for the Planning Department. MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and you're cognizant of that. MS. MESIANO: But what I'm basing -- oh, very cognizant. What I've come to this Board for was the most basic elements, which is the area variance for the size of the farm stand structure, if it's necessary, based on my earlier description, and the variance for the setbacks from Hallock Lane because the buildings they're old preexisting buildings that date back to at least the 30s. We've talked about the feasibility of moving them and the building that is most setback would be considered most egregious, if you will, is the largest building we refer to that as building 4 and that's 8 feet and a fraction from Hallock Lane. We've considered the alternatives and one of them being moving, PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 269 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 relocating the structure, but given the fragile nature of the building and the fact that there's a nice old stone cellar under the easterly portion of the building, we couldn't move the building and the cellar. I mean, the cellar is there and that's part of the plan for the wine storage is the use of the stone cellar. So there are practical aspects that prevent us from picking them up and moving them and making them conforming. MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, let me ask you one more thing since it's on my mind. MS. MESIANO: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: Combined the winery aspect of this site plan is about how many square feet? 4000? MS. MESIANO: I'll tell you in just a minute. I would say it would probably be closer to 5000, by the time -- if you encompass all of the areas that we're talking about. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's inside and outside? MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I'm just worried about the buildings themselves. PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 270 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MS. MESIANO: I'm referring to the buildings. I'm not referring to decks or walkways or curbs -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, I just want to know what size, you know what I mean? MS. MESIANO: I'm referring to structure -- well let me just do a quick -- MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, the only unusual thing about this is that you're kind of splitting it up, but you know there are other instances in town where they're combined actually. Premier Wine Group is one where they make the wine, right inside and -- MEMBER OLIVA: MEMBER DINIZIO: have the tasting room Right. You know, it's a completely different business altogether. MS. MESIANO: So there's two principle uses to a building and to the property. MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, that's on commercial property, but it's -- MS. MESIANO: Yes. MEMBER DINIZIO: But I'm thinking here you need to think out of the box -- MS. MESIANO: Right. Pugliese CourtReportingand TranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 271 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 MEMBER DINIZIO: -- especially when you're trying to save some old buildings and certainly the Harbes think out There's no doubt of that. that corn. of the box. MS. MESIANO: 4500. MEMBER DINIZIO: I have a brother-in-law comes from Massachusetts to eat their CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you done? MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, I am. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, could you just break down for us, not at this time, but by way of letter, all of the retail sales on that site both present and future -- proposed. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the setbacks of the huge deck and to the front property line which is adjacent and/or contiguous to Hallock Lane. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay -- That's what we'd like to have by letter, MS. MESIANO: -- setbacks if we could. of the proposed MEMBER WEISMAN: The proposed deck here? Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Transcription Service (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: yeah. MEMBER WEISMAN: 272 Southold - February 28, 2008 The proposed deck, Setback of the proposed CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) on that may be raised so that's what we're concerned with. MS. MESIANO: retail use -- Okay, present and proposed site. area. what CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail retail sales on MS. MESIANO: The setbacks of the was the third? CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The square footage of that proposed deck and Proposed deck around the large building or wherever that is. MS. MESIANO: Right that was the setbacks you were referring to. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: setbacks. MS. MESIANO: So there's two items not three. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Those two items. The only other thing that you should be thinking about is the -- if you, and you have Pugliese Cou~ Reporting and Tran$criptionService (631)878-8355 Right, that was the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 273 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 explained to us the purpose of the stone cellar. You need to now look at the barriers that you are going to use to preserve these areas from vehicular traffic and/or larger traffic that may or may not in using this road as ingress and egress. MS. MESIANO: That's -- right. We're already addressing that with the Planning Department. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. MS. MESIANO: We've spent a lot of time with them. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but that is under health, safety and welfare. MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, also pedestrian traffic on the (inaudible). MS. MESIANO: We've discussed that as well and we've gone into great detail in these discussions. We haven't come up with a final depiction of how that will be handled, but we've been kicking around some suggestions from Planning, from our engineers, Mr. Harbes, myself. So we've been -- we have a lot of input and we're trying to come up with the most reasonable plan that will satisfy the PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 274 nobody behind me. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: some -- MS. MESIANO: Oh, there's me. You're not nobody, you're Well, no we've got somebody behind somebody. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Seeing no hands, will reiterate again where you're going to give us the cross-easements. You're going give us a breakdown of all the retail and proposed sales on the site. You're going to give us the setbacks, more in particular the arranged the deck around the larger barn. MS. MESIANO: Um-hmm. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And any barriers PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-8355 we to code, the safety and public welfare, the aesthetic aspect of it because we're coming at it from so many diverse perspectives. So we're trying to satisfy all of those perspectives without destroying the integrity of the facility and maintain that atmosphere. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, I guess we should ask the proverbial question, is there anybody else in the audience who would like to say anything? MS. MESIANO: By am I happy there's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 275 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 that you're looking at and pedestrian traffic if you have any of that further information at this time. With that in mind, I'll make a motion -- are we going to close this without a date? MEMBER WEISMAN: We're recessing. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're recessing it is what I mean. MS. MESIANO: You're talking about the proposed deck around building 4 and you wanted the setback to Sound Avenue? BOARD ASST.: To the proposed deck and Hallock Lane. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No. No, Hallock Lane to the property line, not to Hallock Lane, to the property line. MS. MESIANO: Okay, we're holding -- they're already in a letter now. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good. BOARD ASST.: So call me tomorrow if you MS. MESIANO: Not tomorrow I'll be under anesthesia tomorrow. BOARD ASST.: Okay. Your motion is to recess pending SEQR to a final determination PuglieseCourtRepo~ingandTranscriptionService (631)878-835~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 276 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 and five items that were requested. CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, I got four. Okay, I offer that as a resolution. MEMBER WEISMAN: Second. (See Minutes for Resolution.) (OFF THE RECORD) Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 277 ZBA Town of Southold - February 28, 2008 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings were prepared using four-track electronic transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the Hearings. Signature~_~~'~ Denise Galowski Agency Name: Address of Agency: Pugliese's Court Reporting and Transcription Service 4 Saddlebrook Lane Manorville, New York 11949 Date: October 19, 2008 Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service (631) 878-8355