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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
September 25, 2008
9:17 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member (start 2:03)
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member
LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney -
{10:00 - end)
ORIGINAL , ·
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
Joseph and Cathleen Shipman #6173 3-22
Edward Bondarchuk #6178 22-32
Paul Silansky #6203 32-52
ARTCO and Coastline Cesspool 96200 52-61
Robert Sommerville #6204 61-68
John Gatanas #6201 68-72
Thomas and Mae Mauri #6199 72-75
Howard and Dorothy Zehner #6197 75-79
Ronald Pollio #6205 79-83
Ryan and Jennifer Stork #6180 83-86
Pine Neck Holdings #6180 86-90
Henry Traendly #6154 and #6207 90-91
Jennifer Jacobs and Clayton Gates #6206 91-92
Bud George Holman #6202 92-97
Richard Manfredi #6188 97-152
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
PUBLIC HEARINGS --
HEARING %6173 -
Joseph and Cathleen Shipman
MRS. MOORE: Patricia Moore, attorney for
the applicant and my address is 51020 Main
Road, Southold.
May I begin?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
MRS. MOORE: Okay. I happened to be here
during the first hearing so I did hear some of
the discussion and one of the issues that we
addressed while this application was in
abeyance is that the variance -- there is
really only one variance that is required here
and that is a rear yard variance. It was
clarified with the Building Department that
the easterly road that gives access to
subdivisions up to the north is not a road
that Mr. Shipman has any access to; it is an
independent access point. So with respect to
the definition of (inaudible) that the
easterly property line is a side yard. We are
maintaining more than the minimum required
side yard there with the proposal as you have
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
reviewed it.
So we are starting off with just, as I
said, one variance and that is the rear yard
variance. The property, as you recall, and
I'll just very quickly go over some of the
facts from the first hearing that I think are
important and relevant here, which is that the
property is surrounded by 20-foot high cedar
trees on the entire perimeter of the property.
My client owns, in addition to this parcel, a
9.7 acre and a 6.7 acre parcel to the north
where he operates his tree farm.
So the purpose of the placement of this
building, which is a barn, a permitted
principle use on this parcel, is to place it
in such a way where it works with the farm.
It also allows for the operation of his
equipment and his storage while maintaining
the perimeter of landscaping. If he were to,
and we talked about all the different options
during the interim, and if we were to propose
this building in a conforming centered
location what the effect of that would be is
that it would impact the vegetation around it
because now it would be in the way of his farm
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
equipment and his staging area, balling of the
trees that was what he testified to at the
first hearing. So this is the optimal
location to be able to work with this
structure as a barn.
We did speak and he has actually he
staked it and measured it and we are actually
proposing a slight movement of the barn in a
more conforming 15 feet from the property
line. Your plan shows 10, after he's measured
the placement with the tree line that is
between his property and his farm and this
property, it is actually even better to move
it another five feet. I want to be sure that
that's incorporated into your deliberations
because I didn't want us to come back to the
Building Department {inaudible) and have to
come back to you. So that is something that
we want to put on the record that --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Can I ask you a
question, is it on on the map?
MRS. MOORE: Sure. I just hear about --
MEMBER SIMON: You'll submit it in
writing, right?
MRS. MOORE: Pardon?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
MEMBER SIMON: This change will be
submitted in writing?
MRS. MOORE: I can certainly do that. I
mean, I'm putting it on the record now, it's
an extra five feet.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just submit it with an
amended application.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. I'll do it by
way of a letter. Okay, that's fine.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It should also be on a
survey or map to indicate to --
MRS. MOORE: Alright, we'll have to go
back to the surveyor and just have him show 15
rather than 10.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because we have to, you
know --
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, you want -- not a
problem.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- file it with the
finding so it's specific to the submission.
MRS. MOORE: That's fine. That's not a
problem. In support of that application I'd
also remind the Board that we do have strong
policies with respect to encouraging
agriculture supporting the farm and this
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
barn's placement is certainly going to benefit
the farm to the north. That is, again, one of
the policies in favor of placement of this
barn and a closer location to the farm than
would be typical of a house being put on the
center of a property.
With respect to the standard of the
benefits that cannot be achieved by some other
method, I think I've pointed out that the barn
as a principle use on this property is also
being used in conjunction with the farm and
access -- the equipment access and the tree
farm balling that occurs as part of the farm
operation it is important to have a clear
space and workable space. The more you move
the building towards the main road, the more
visible the whole activity is. We are now
dealing with a lesser distance for setbacks
and for activities and the farming operation
that are all visible on the main road.
So here what we're trying to do is
minimal impact on the surrounding community
and in particular it's behind the tree line so
no one will see anything. So this is a good
proposal if you don't want to change anything
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
with respect to how the property looks right
now and that has been a point that you've
emphasized throughout.
There are no physical or environmental
concerns on this property or the neighborhood.
It is -- this property is surrounded by other
farms. You have the (inaudible) farm, Mr.
Jonathan (inaudible) next door on the left,
the (inaudible) side of the property. He is
supportive. They've worked their property as
two farms would and Mr.
me that they, you know,
Johnson to turn around,
Shipman did mention to
there's room for Mr.
and access, and
delivery of mulch and other things, you know,
to help the farm next door to the be able to
operate as well. So it's been a very good
cooperative relationship.
You also have (inaudible) to the east.
So you have a whole lot of farm and
landscapers and agricultural-type of
operations in this area on
just wanted to (inaudible)
functioning now for -- how
the farm?
the main road and I
as it's been
long have you had
MR. SHIPMAN: 20 years.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MRS. MOORE: -- 20 years.
I'd be happy to address any issues,
specific issues you might have and I think
you've heard -- this was all discussed at the
first hearing and I was just going over some
of the points that I thought were important
from the first hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are familiar
with the requests that the neighbors' counsel
had mentioned regarding a covenant on this
parcel?
MRS. MOORE: I think that's
inappropriate. I think that zoning dictates
what we can or can't do on this property. I
don't believe that a private party, a
neighbor, in particular this neighbor who is
probably farther than 2000 feet away from this
property and really has no business
establishing or enforcing covenants on a
private property owner. It would be no
different if we tried to enforce a covenant
against him.
Certainly we've -- as long as we've met
our burden of showing why in this instance the
barn makes sense to place it where it is, from
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
that point forward we've met our burden and
the covenant is inappropriate.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When I was trying
to bring up in this hearing the first time,
Ms. Moore was the fact that many of these
barns throughout the Town of Southold have
different and distinct uses within them.
Alright? This particular applicant and his
family are attempting to segregate their uses
and take -- and place this use, the same use
that's used in the one barn they have and put
it in this barn.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have a
particular problem with that at this
particular point. I, you know, that was what
I was saying.
We've had several (inaudible) to other
places in the Town where multiple -- it's a
mutual aid to other barns throughout the Town
where a garden variety of uses have been
placed in them and this is a, as I said, I'll
make this statement again, in my opinion, a
straightforward application for a use that I
don't foresee a problem with, at this time,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
unless
I
2008
the Code was changed. Okay?
do want to welcome the Chief Building
Inspector here. He has gratuitously come --
if that's your proper title, I do apologize if
it's not -- that person that the counsel for
the neighbors had requested that the Building
Inspector come and that is
asked you to come, Michael.
don't see him present.
BOARD ASST.: The
record though.
MRS. MOORE:
here.
request
The opponent
The opponent himself is
the reason why we
I don't know -- I
is still on the
is sitting
here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, so I'm going
back to the use of the barn. I'm not making
any derogatory statements to any barn that may
or may not have violations on it, I'm just
making a statement regarding what I have seen
and what this application is and that is the
reason why I made that statement on the record
at the first hearing and I'll leave it at
that.
to
here.
MRS. MOORE: I have the person who made
request to have the Building Inspector
Should I step away and let you speak
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
with him or (inaudible)?
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd like to take
advantage of the fact that he's here.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
BOARD ASST.: Put your name for the
record, Mr. Verity.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Sure. Michael
Verity, Chief Building Inspector, Town of
Southold.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Michael, our legal
notice, and I don't know if we want to -- need
to have it read to you, but basically what it
says is that these types of barns are
permitted on this particular lot, except for
the fact that it's being built so closely to a
single side yard.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Rear yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, rear yard, sorry.
So the use of this barn is not in any way
involved in this application.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
correct, it's not a question.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, okay. I just
wanted to be clear because it seems to me like
the discussion is going towards what the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
gentleman is going to use it for and it's
perfectly legal for his to use the barn for
what he proposes to use it for.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, as per
280-13A(2),
use.
here.
I think it is, it's a permitted
MEMBER DINIZIO: We've got A-C it looks
A-C is the zone that it's in,
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no.
c).
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yeah, that's
but the actual -
It's 280-13A (2-
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Yes, that's
correct.
Actually, A-2 would cover all of them,
there's four different parts to that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So I just wanted to be
clear on that cause I didn't want us to get
off on a tangent about the fact that Mr.
Shipman is using it for what he's been using
that piece of land for ever and ever and we're
just concerned mostly with a 60-foot (sic)
setback --
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: That's
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
correct. The rear yard at this time, it's not
a use.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay and the rear yard
abuts, you know, a tree farm.
CHIEF BUILDING INSPECTOR: Um-hmm.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's all I have.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no questions of
Mr. Verity.
I think it's clear the only difference
that we have from the Notice of Disapproval
that you wrote is an amended plan be proposed
to change the rear yard setback from 10 feet
to 15 feet.
BOARD ASST.: It was side yard, side yard
setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No, rear yard.
MEMBER SIMON: Rear yard.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The side yard is now a
code-conforming side yard.
MEMBER SIMON: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: What was resolved,
correct me if I'm wrong, was resolved was the
fact that the right-of-way that the neighbor
was concerned about is now moot.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: That's right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Because it was
considered technically a side yard since Mr.
Shipman doesn't have access to that.
MEMBER SIMON: That's correct.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So the record should
reflect that we only have the one variance and
we'll have an amended application for 15-foot
setback when the Code requires 60 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: That's correct.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I just question
that, please, because it seems to me that he
doesn't need an amended application because --
MEMBER WEISMAN:
plan, I'm sorry.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
of -- ~Jnended --
No, an amended site
Well, what is it?
They've got 15 instead
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to change
the word, it's amendment to the application
changing it. That's my opinion.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, that's what I
thought it did. Yeah, we could grant the 15
feet, if that's what we so choose, and not
have to go through the process of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
readvertising and --
BOARD ASST.: We don't have to
readvertise.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, you know, really
if you're going to have an amended application
you really should readvertise because people
would want to know that what they looked at
first has changed. If you want it amended --
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- I think we can amend
it to 15 feet or we can -- I don't think we
can amend it, but certainly I think we could
grant them 15 feet without having six more
sets of maps, six more sets of whatever else
this poor person has to give us and be on our
merry way. We just did that last week. I
just wrote the -- I just read one that we
granted alternate relief, I'm sure we can give
(inaudible) --
MEMBER SIMON:
Kieran were here,
16
25, 2008
make the same point, with regard to an
amendment and I realize if there is a
(inaudible) to the amendment, yes, you have
readvertise it, but this is what would be
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On a legal point, if
I think he might very well
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
called in parliamentary procedure, a
{inaudible) amendment in no sense would it
increase the burden to any possible objector.
It would be a case where a person could accept
something as a (inaudible) amendment, accept
it and no vote would ever have to be taken on
it, so it would not raise any issues; however,
we could do it by the alternative relief, but
I'm saying they would not need to readvertise
in the nature of this particular amendment,
which makes it less potentially obtrusive to a
neighbor rather than more so.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I suppose my concern is
that, you know, we're asking them now to
redraw something that really doesn't need to
be redrawn if we describe to them what we're
granting. It seems to be that 15 feet is
acceptable to these folks, we can grant 15
feet.
MEMBER SIMON: True.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me ask the
question of counsel, will you accept alternate
relief?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, we would.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we'll
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
leave it up to the Town Attorney to make that
determination.
Thank you, Michael.
MEMBER SIMON: As I do understand, yes,
it's obviously important at some point to
notice that the -- that what is being applied
for is going to be accepted at 15 feet rather
than 10, which goes very much to the point of
the application because we're talking about a
reduction in the setback and that is based on
the variance. I also, just an observation,
another reason that makes this application
persuasive has to do with the fact that it is
part of a whole operation and the reason it's
being placed where it is is because it serves
the purpose of the adjoining property, which
is owned by the same person, and that's a
reason for putting it there.
If there were an objection to -- why is
it so close to the border, there is an answer
to this, which means that a neighbor's
concern, which may not be legally necessary
for being concerned that this will be used as
it is continuing to be and as it is now being
used is highly relevant to the -- to our
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
decision in deciding that this additional
building is highly appropriate and, therefore,
warrants the (inaudible). If this is
unnecessary, that's fine, but I don't know
what arguments the attorney on the other side
will have to say why it's important to get
this particular condition or covenant in this
or not, but in the absence of this, we'll just
make up our own -- make our own decision.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Michael, I just want to
correct one thing. I think that the
neighbors' concern was the right-of-way
primarily and that's a moot agreement --
MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- absolutely counsel's
preliminary arguments about the appropriate
nature of the operation of farm, tree farm,
and why the building needs to be where it is,
and I don't have any questions. Legally, it's
very frequent that we do an amended site plan
traditionally simply because it then gives us
a map to stamp to say this is exactly what the
applicant is proposing. I have no objection
if it's -- to doing alternate relief, either
is the same results. We just simply won't be
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
able to stamp that as a final map. It'll have
to be in writing instead. I think in this
instance the issues have been resolved and I
have no further questions on it. I'm prepared
to vote on this.
MRS. MOORE: If it would be helpful,
certainly we can do it by writing. We can --
we have to provide a foundation plan after
construction as part of the building permit
process, a foundation plan. What we can do is
ask Mr. Shipman to send to you the foundation
plan just to confirm its location. At that
point, it's not an additional expense it's
just finalizing in your file what has been a
15-foot setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That sounds like an
excellent solution.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to be heard on this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing subject to the receipt of
that foundation plan.
MRS. MOORE: No. (Inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: The letter.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The letter.
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) the Building
Inspector's (inaudible) foundation plan.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER SIMON:
letter.
MRS. MOORE:
We don't even need the
If you (inaudible)
alternative relief.
MEMBER SIMON: Alternate relief, yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, that's still
up in the air because --
MEMBER WEISMAN: We can include it as a
condition, like a separate condition that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to ask
counsel that question anyway.
MRS. MOORE: I don't want
application --
I' 11
it
to delay this
MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
just withdraw the motion and
with -- excuse me.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Closing it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
There's no need, so
say closing
Closing it with the
idea of making a decision in the very near
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
future.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6178 - Edward Bondarchuk
MEMBER WEISMAN: "Request for a Variance
under Section 280-116B, based on the Building
Inspector's December 10, 2007 Notice of
Disapproval concerning an as-built hot tub and
deck in a location at less than 75 feet from
the existing bulkhead, at 650 Blue Marlin
Drive, Southold; CTM 1000-57-1-28."
MR. BONDARCHUK: If I may, Ed Bondarchuk,
I own 650 Blue Marlin Drive.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Bondarchuk, as I
understand it, you have an as-built deck and a
hot tub that's 62.5 feet from the bulkhead.
We have a code-required 75 feet. You also
have a 15-foot non-disturb buffer from the
bulkhead on your property and your deck was
built over existing concrete patio. We have a
letter of support from your neighbors Declan
and Lea Meager (sic), just so you know that we
did receive that.
What would you like to tell us?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
MR. BONDARCHUK:
points, one, the 56.5
25, 2008
To clarify a couple of
feet on the Disapproval
Notice. What I did in the process of
preparing this is consulted the original
survey that I got when I purchased the
property in July of 2001 and from scaling that
it indicates to the rear of the concrete patio
is actually 60 feet. I don't know if the
Building Department has this particular survey
on file. I would assume they do, but I can
make it available to them, if necessary.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: When you say the
rear, you're referring to the edge of the
patio?
MR. BONDARCHUK: To the edge of the
concrete patio.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
MR. BONDARCHUK: And then in 2002 my
bulkhead started developing problems. So I
went through the process, hired someone to
create the permits and they filed what I
thought were all the necessary permits to
replace the bulkhead with all the different
agencies and inclusive of that what we did was
included putting this deck over top of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
concrete patio. Unfortunately, what I have
since done is we got approval from everybody
except for the Building Department. The Board
of Trustees signed off on it, the DEC, etc.,
etc. So this particular construction of the
deck was approved and it was an oversight I
guess on my part, obviously, I'm the landowner
so it's incumbent on me to know that I should
have gone to the Housing Department to get it
approved.
Subsequently, I added the hot tub and
when I went to get the permit for the hot tub,
I didn't realize I needed one. I did it, in
fact, after the fact that the hot tub was
placed. That's when I sat down with the
Building Department and determined that not
only did I need a variance for the hot tub,
also needed one for the deck.
One other point I wanted to clarify, when
we did -- I did a survey, had a survey done
back in 2007 around the time coincidental with
the submittal of the application. It did -- I
think that's included with your packet. It
does show that from the edge of the Trex deck
it is now 62 feet to the bulkhead. So just --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
I'm not sure exactly where the 56.5 feet came
from, but I just wanted to state for the
record that is exactly what's been measured
from the surveys.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Did you -- I'm just
looking at the survey here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what it
says.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Pardon me?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what our
survey says.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That 62 feet to the deck
or to the house?
MR. BONDARCHUK: It's to the deck. To
the Trex deck that actually covers the
concrete patios. As a matter of fact, just
for the record, the existing concrete patio
was 542 square feet. The Trex deck that
covered them also covered a small piece of
turf in between them that currently is 661
square feet. So an additional coverage of
approximately 119 square feet of the back
there, but the addition of the Trex deck
coincidental with the bulkhead really did not
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
subtract, if you will,
setback.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
question, actually.
from the existing
I have just one
Without observing the
site, it would appear that the neighbor to the
-- what is this? The neighbor to the east has
a small in-ground pool --
MR. BONDARCHUK: Yes, ma'am.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- and patio that's
actually closer to the bulkhead than what your
decking is.
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Yes, ma'am.
My only question,
really, and the neighbors do support it. They
have a much larger rear deck with railings,
they're also closer to the bulkhead than the
code requires. I don't see, especially given
your non-disturb buffer and the stability of
the bulkhead a real issue. My question is,
especially knowing that the Trustees and DEC
did approve the deck, just one question. The
hot tub, I have one myself and it has to be
drained when you do a fresh fill. Where does
that water go when you drain it? Is it onto
your grass or --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
MR. BONDARCHUK: Uh, well --
MEMBER WEISMAN: I presume you
a drywell for it.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Yeah,
draining it onto the grass.
that was an issue or not.
27
25, 2008
don't have
I've just been
I didn't know if
MEMBER WEISMAN: Your property doesn't
slope toward the bulkhead, it's kind of level,
which is advantageous. So usually on-site
drainage of water, whether it's rainwater or
pool or, you know, hot tub needs to be
retained on-site so that we don't have any of
it running down over the bulkhead.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Oh, okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Typically when you have
a swimming pool, we request that there be a
drywell put in --
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
Okay.
-- for pool water
drainage. So for -- have you ever thought
about that, are you aware of that?
MR. BONDARCHUK: I wasn't aware of it
and, frankly, I don't live here so I don't use
the hot tub. I haven't even filled it all
year this year. So I'm kind of questioning
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
the sanity of buying one, but I could empty it
into my septic tank, if that was acceptable.
The house gets very little use. I'm probably
here a couple of weeks during the summer every
month. Beyond that, it's, you know, nobody
lives here full time so I don't know what the
impact would be on the septic tank. I'm
assuming it's pretty empty.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
how many gallons?
MR. BONDARCHUK:
gallons.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BONDARCHUK:
sheet on it.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BONDARCHUK:
How large is the tub,
Approximately 300
300.
Yeah, I do have a spec
That's alright.
Okay.
Approximately 300, okay.
Certainly nothing like a
swimming pool, which would be in the thousands
of gallons.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, right, I
absolutely believe it's a small amount of
water. I do want to just mention to you are
you aware of the fact an on-grade patio
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
doesn't require a permit. If you could, the
Code says if you could run a lawn mower over
it, if it's at grade there is no permit
required.
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
that you have there could have been even
closer to the bulkhead, technically.
MR. BONDARCHUK: I see.
MEMBER WEISMAN: That wouldn't have
required the same set of situations when you
build above ground.
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
of that.
MR. BONDARCHUK:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
code.
Okay, now I don't have any further
questions here. I think it's fairly
straightforward.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
clear one thing up.
the deck?
MR. BONDARCHUK:
I see.
So that concrete patio
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There is a planter around
Yes, sir.
It's in the Code.
Yeah, according to the
29
Okay.
So just so you're aware
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So
effect, the actual setback is
MR. BONDARCHUK: 59 feet
the planter.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. BONDARCHUK:
three feet more --
25, 2008
really, in
60 feet.
actually from
From the planter.
The planter extends out
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so in effect
the planter, regardless of what the survey
says, the planter is the landward most --
first aspect of the improvements on this
property from the bulkhead. So it's really 59
feet.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Okay. I wasn't sure if
the planter was considered part of the deck.
We put the planter there to grade around the
deck and I put in some nice boxwoods that, you
know --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah,
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
it's very nice.
I just wanted to
clear that issue up for any future situations.
MR. BONDARCHUK: I see.
MEMBER SIMON: The patio was at grade
level where the deck was built over it?
MR. BONDARCHUK: A little bit higher.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: It's relevant to Leslie's
question because if it's at grade level it
would not have to be contained by setbacks at
all, but above grade level -- In any case,
you would need a building permit to build on
top of even the grade level, that's the issue.
Regarding the use of it, you say it's not
used very much. I think that with the house
mostly empty during the summer months?
MR. BONDARCHUK: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Obviously, you're free to
rent it to somebody and it could have heavy
use .
MR. BONDARCHUK: I would never do that
because I have a lot of personal affects in
the house and --
MEMBER SIMON: What I'm saying is the
idea that the -- that that could change is
what I'm saying with regard to use --
MR. BONDARCHUK: Sure.
MEMBER SIMON: -- of this. I don't --
I'm not particularly knowledgeable on this.
What I'm concerned about is issues about
drywells and so forth (inaudible) to somebody
(inaudible), but probably it isn't.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I think
that's where we are. Don't leave until we
close the hearing, please.
MR. BONDARCHUK: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
reserving decision until
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6203 Paul Silansky
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request for a
Variance under Section 280-124, based on the
Building Inspector's July 21, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed dwelling on
a nonconforming 14,000 square foot parcel,
with a lot coverage exceeding the code
limitation of 20%
770 Pinewood Road,
24."
How are you,
for all building area, at
Cutchogue; CTM 1000-110-5-
sir? Would you state your
name for the record?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MR. SILANSKY: Paul Silansky.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How are you?
MR. SILANSKY: Good, thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us?
MR. SILANSKY: Everyone's had an
opportunity to read the application. There's
not a lot more in there to say, except that
the surveyor when he originally did the
building calculation did not include the
entryways. I think he interpreted the
building area definition of the Code which is
he aggregated the maximum horizontal cross-
section of the buildings on our lot measured
between the exterior faces of the walls and
then there's some inclusions and exclusions
and that's what he used in the calculation.
He included the garage and everything inside
the house, but he didn't include the entryways
on the front and the back. So it was somewhat
under the lot coverage that you have, 20%, and
then it somewhat exceeded it when the
architect got hired to, I guess for lack of a
better term, New York-atize it because he
needed -- the original drawings needed the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
120-mile per hour wind requirement and a
number of other things.
So I hired a New York architect at
approximately $4500.00 to take the existing
drawings and have them conform to the New
York, this area in particular, especially with
the wind standards. So at that point he
recalculated the lot coverage and when he
calculated the floor space he included the
front and rear entryways and that puts it over
the 20% so I'm here to request a variance
(inaudible) so that I can build it as
designed.
Thank you.
MEMBER WEISMAN: When I went over to the
site I saw that your lot is cleared and you
have retaining walls in place because of the
topography.
MR. SILANSKY: For run-off. Yeah, for
the water run-off on the grade.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a bit higher to the
east of your property. The houses also vary
substantially in size in that area from very
small to medium to, you know, ranches to a
couple of fairly high two-story houses. I
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
think 18.8% is what your application said your
lot coverage was without the porch and entry.
MR. SILANSKY: Right, without the garage,
I think there's 1873 square feet in the house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is there anyway you can
bring the size of that porch or entry down a
tad? The square footage without compromising
the look or the -- what we're trying to do is,
I mean, I don't think that this is a huge
variance, but we try to grant the minimum
variance that we possibly can. So I just want
to raise that issue to see whether or not the
possibility of bringing the 22.3% down at all.
MR. SILANSKY: I believe it's certainly
possible. The ramifications of that are that
I've already sent everything out for quote.
First of all, I'd have to go back to the
architect on that.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MR. SILANSKY:
Right.
I'd have to go back to the
Health Department on that, which was a process
that took from March 11th to July 2nd and I --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You shouldn't have to go
back to the Health Department, but you would
have to get the architect to make a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
modification --
MR. SILANSKY: And then I've also
obtained agreement quotes on the foundation
work, the concrete work, the framing and those
things would have to be revisited. I'm trying
to get this closed up before the winter months
out here and I'm going to have to build in the
cold anyway. The porch is only five feet
deep as far as the entryways and the porches
it's a small space to begin with. The
roofline would have to change, the structure
itself because of the way the roof is designed
to cover that. So it would be a substantial
amount of architectural changes in that the
building and materials list would probably
change, although slightly, but the building
materials list would probably change.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I make a
suggestion?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want the record to
reflect the circumstances so I bring that up
for that reason. I'm looking at the plan now
and I see that the roof is not really the
issue too much, because it's really spanning
the entry. If you shorten the -- the depth
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
can't be shortened particularly because it's
very shallow 4 foot 3 in one case and I guess
it's 8-foot on the other side and then you
really have just a 5 foot 4 inch -- so it's
quite shallow. You would probably have to
crop the length of, you know, to reduce it.
Other than that (inaudible) reduce it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I make a
suggestion? In these situations, if we can't
agree on the lot coverage that you're
requesting we can do one of two things. One
thing we really don't enjoy doing is denying
the application. Okay? What we'd like to do
is come up with a figure, alright, a
percentage figure in excess, if we can, and
that's called alternate relief.
MR. SILANSKY: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. In this
particular case, why don't you just eliminate
the rear porch at this time in the
construction? I realize that that affects a
roof situation, but it doesn't affect the
foundation or anything else, at this
particular time, and if you were planning on
putting a foundation underneath it, don't do
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
it. We'll worry about that later after you
finish the house and maybe we can work
something out after that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I think -- just let me
conclude. I'm not determined to suggest that
the granting of a 22.3% variance is not
possible. That's not what I'm -- when I
brought this up, it was not because I meant to
suggest that this was not a possibility, only
to inquire for the record what would be
involved in reducing that percentage and I
think you've explained it well. I mean it all
has to depend, you know pipe, in on your
opinions, but I want the record to reflect
that I brought it up simply so we understand
what your flexibility was or wasn't, how far
along you went.
MR. SILANSKY: Well, because it's so late
in the year and it's going to get cold I'm
kind of firmed up the materials list, the
deliveries with the contractor so we know
what's involved in building it.
I had suggested, when I was in the
Building Department, if I could replace the
porches -- if there were enough square footage
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
on the porches to meet the requirement with
material of impervious nature, because I think
the spirit of the lot coverage, what you're
trying to accomplish there, is not to have a
lot of impervious surfaces built on a small
lot. So then you've got too much coverage and
run-off problems and the rest of it.
The issue that came up there is that
there is the roof and the character of the
house and the {inaudible) arches that are
there supported with pillars you need to pour
concrete footings and a foundation in order to
support that roof. So yes, modifying the
porch is although possible, yes it is,
structurally it's a lot. It's -- there's a
high impact on the timing of the house being
built and certainly the character of it. I'm
conscious that there's people that live also
in back of me that are (inaudible) and they
would probably -- I mean the house looks good
from the back with the arches and the
porchway. It has -- it's an easy to look at
thing. If that was taken off and it was just
one straight long, you know, back of a
building it wouldn't be as aesthetic, I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
think.
I actually looked at the
are used by the Southold Town
25, 2008
standards that
Zoning Board of
Appeals and it looked like those five things
that you use to base your decision, it looked
like I was probably within those, but if I'm
not and I need to do something more drastic,
if you make the request then that's what I'll
have to do.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is we
don't know if you're in them or not. This is
a democratic board (inaudible) three votes.
MEMBER SIMON: If one person says that he
or she doesn't have any problems, that's one
person speaking.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we're saying to
you will you accept alternate relief if we
can't agree on the over percentage.
MR. SILANSKY: Yes, I would.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Is it possible for that
rear porch to be at grade, you'd step down?
Leave the roof in place, put in footings, put
it at grade, step down because anything at
grade is not calculated as part of lot
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41
25, 2008
coverage.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is if it's under
a roof.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Having a roof, it's lot
coverage. I don't think that's going to
alleviate your problem.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leave that for a
minute and let's continue with the
questioning.
MR. SILANSKY: I just -- if it's under a
roof, from the Code, the aggregate of a
maximum (inaudible) on a cross-section of
buildings on a lot measured between exterior
faces of the walls. It says --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you, sir,
but that's not how this has been interpreted
for quite some time and it sometimes went as
far as to include sidewalks that have been
built up and, you know, things. So I don't
want to have us granting a variance based on
that. I mean if I can speak, 22%, we've
granted twice that, okay, on smaller lots and
if I hear what your explanation of this is
you've read the code. You had it designed by
a professional and it turned out that what you
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
read in the code isn't what the Building
Inspector interpreted.
MR. SILANSKY: Yeah, well, the surveyor
actually told me from my plans that I could
build it on that lot with no variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so you're
coming to us saying that your hardship with a
variance is look I spent all this money, all
this time, it's getting cold --
MR. SILANSKY: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- and I'd like to get
started on a plan that I thought was good, it
turned out not to be.
MR. SILANSKY: Absolutely.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And that is the heart of
Ms. Weisman's questioning, that you need to
get that public explanation on the record. It
wasn't that you looked at the lot and said
here's the size house I want and I don't care
if it's 22%, I want this. Okay, there is
fairly a good-faith effort on everybody's part
to comply with the code and this
interpretation applies somewhat. I
(inaudible) and I accept the explanation as a
true hardship and, just so you know, I would
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
hope that the rest of the Board will see that,
too.
It is a democracy and I don't want to
bend -- to explain my statement, I don't want
to bend the rules, so to speak, saying that a
roof no longer counts because the next guy
that comes along might interpret it
differently. I'd just as soon if it's in the
book, that's the way we're going to interpret
it, let's interpret it. If we need to grant a
variance, grant it based on what you say,
that's what makes his application different.
Each person has their own explanation.
So I wanted to explain that.
MEMBER SIMON: Yes. First of all, I've
looked a little more closely at the
calculations. The original figure for the
size of the house
was less than the
There are several
lot coverage and so forth
one that emerged later on.
figures, I don't know who
did them, but there are -- there's
approximately -- I don't have the number right
now, but to get from 18% to 22.3% (inaudible)
but there was a recalculation of the area of
the house and I don't know who did this, but
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
in any case it looks as though -- it wasn't
clear really how much of a (inaudible) they
were designing and there's been more than one
change in -- that came up with this 22.3%.
Now, what we are doing in the discussion,
I mean people are talking about this as though
this were an as-built house and we're talking
about expense. As far as I can see the
expense has to do with the cost of the efforts
of people who designed it who didn't do what
they thought they were doing, whether it was
the surveyor or whether it was the architect,
I don't know. I have talked about this kind
of question with other architects about this
and they unvariably (sic) take responsibility
for getting you in trouble; however, there is
an answer.
The answer would be and this is the test
that I use for as-builts, it would apply to
this case although it hasn't been built yet,
would we have granted the variance if you
decided from the get-go for example this is
22.3%. When you go and look at the criteria
more closely and say look either are there
specific reasons for being what 10-12%
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
(inaudible) variance on this lot coverage on a
lot of 14,000 square feet, which is not tiny,
and then the question would be, if the Board
says yes, then I think we wouldn't have any
problem with the variance. If the Board says
no, that's when we start talking about some
kind of alternative relief. I don't like the
idea that we should think about this and be
frozen in what the architect designed in the
first place as though we're sort of stuck by
this and there are building expenses and
delays, which accrue unfortunately to you
(inaudible) and (inaudible) other people to
get this thing right in the first place and so
that covers a lot.
The architects, that architect that I did
talk to said yes that is the kind of problem
that he doesn't believe owners of property
should suffer at the carelessness of the
designers and architects and so then we're
going to have to discuss this.
MR. SILANSKY: I understand that clearly.
I'm maybe a little forgiving person because
the difference there was the surveyor who I
initially consulted and said here's the house
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
plans before I had the New York requirements
build into it by a new architect. When he
surveyed the lot and he looked at the
footprint of the building, he did not include
the entryways in the lot size calculation.
Probably if he had gotten clarification from
the Building Department, he would have. He
was the surveyor not the architect. The
architect, when he redrew the plans but
included the entryways in the lot size
calculation and put them on the (inaudible).
Clearly, the surveyor, I don't want to
say he made a mistake, okay, he didn't
interpret the code or he could have gotten
clarification from the Building Department.
These are such that I'm going to call up and
ask to stake it out when the time comes, I
mean people make mistakes. The unfortunate
part for me was the delaying of another thing.
The (inaudible), the cost of building
materials and roofing. I had to have the
building materials requoted and it's the
$17,000.00 difference already, but I'm not
going to seek any recourse from the surveyor.
He made a mistake. I'm not going to -- you
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ZBA Town
know, I
my take
Michael.
MEMBER SIMON: I
have the figure right
47
of Southold September 25, 2008
need to move forward. That's kind of
on that. I don't know if that helps,
just have -- I don't
now, but there is a
figure of 2785 for the first floor living
space on what the architect gave and then
there was an earlier one and I don't know
where that came from, it was 2600-something
for the same area. So that's a discrepancy
which I don't understand.
MR. SILANSKY: Yeah, the surveyor will
have to answer that.
MEMBER SIMON: Did he do the original
drawing, too?
MR. SILANSKY: He didn't do the drawing.
He took the original drawings before the New
York architect --
MEMBER SIMON: The architects ordinarily
come up with a number about square footage,
that's part of their job. Yeah, the house
area 2630 square feet that's on the survey.
Now where did he get that number?
MR. SILANSKY: He took that off,
probably, the original set of the drawings as
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
they were published.
MEMBER SIMON: There was a -- 2630 versus
2795 and that's largely responsible for the
difference for the relief for the variance,
that difference, which I don't have an
explanation for.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, I think it's
easy because I think in the beginning he told
us he did not include the garage.
MEMBER SIMON: No, no, no. What --
MR. SILANSKY: No the entryways.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The {inaudible) and
the entryways?
MR SILANSKY: Yeah. I think the mistake
that I made was not sitting down with a
calculator measuring it for myself and
checking the numbers, but I had confidence
that he was a licensed surveyor and that that
would happen and that's why I'm reluctant to
mention his name because he {inaudible) the
sheets (inaudible).
MEMBER SIMON: Did the architect ever put
calculations of the number of square feet on
the plans?
MR. SILANSKY: Yes.
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ZBA Town of Southold - Septeraber 25, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: What is that number the
architect gave originally? 2795?
MR. SILANSKY: I could reference the
drawings, but in the drawings in the copy I
gave you the architect was good he also
included a portion of the lot plan. He showed
the building envelope and he showed the house
on it and he did the calculations. He had to
-- he also redesigned the (inaudible) on a
truss (inaudible) because that was recommended
(inaudible} wind requirements (inaudible).
There was changes that I made to it in his CAD
system, but the big difference that I saw was
the first guy did not consider the porches and
the entryways as building area.
MEMBER SIMON: That 15 -- those two
together amount to 331 square feet difference.
Whereas the difference in the discrepancy in
the first floor lot area is only about 150
square feet, but I just wondered why
(inaudible) is that that's a significant part
of the discrepancy.
MR. SILANSKY: Right.
and ask. I sent him -- I
the
I could call him
left him a message,
surveyor, and I told him that I had to
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
apply for a variance.
MEMBER SIMON: Are you saying the
surveyor saw this before the architect drew
his plans?
MR. SILANSKY: I had an original set of
plans, but when I took them to the Building
Department to apply for the building
application they told me that I couldn't use
them because I needed a New York architect
stamp on them.
MEMBER SIMON: And the original architect
created a larger plan? I want to know how you
got the 2630 to 2795?
MR. SILANSKY:
know.
MEMBER SIMON:
I don't know. I don't
It seems to have grown
from the original plan --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No one's here to
testify to them.
MEMBER SIMON: I know but the problem is
people are persuaded by the good faith effort
of everybody involved in this and that seems
to be what's at issue because there's a
discrepancy which nobody can explain.
MR. SILANSKY: I --
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible)
the original house on it?
MR. SILANSKY: Yeah.
BOARD ASST.: It shows
from the architect is 22%?
MR. SILANSKY: Yeah.
to the
51
25, 2008
survey,
18% to the plan
BOARD ASST.: They look identical except
the scale in the survey looks very different.
The scale -- it looks like the house was
scaled down cause (inaudible) showing a
(inaudible) up a little (inaudible) porch. It
looks identical, but the architect house looks
like it's 33 feet deep. It looks like the
surveyor had it much smaller.
scale problem.
MEMBER SIMON: So was
the part of the surveyor?
It could be a
it (inaudible) on
I mean it looks
very -- If there were hundreds of thousands of
dollars involved in this this is the kind of
thing the Board would worry about.
MR. SILANSKY: The original house, I
believe, the original plans had 2 by 6 wall
construction and, I'm sorry, it went from 2 by
4 to 2 by 6 wall construction and it made it a
little bit bigger around the edge. I don't
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ZBA Town of Southold
have any answer for --
ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: At the
day you're going to have to focus
September 25, 2008
end of the
on the
variance criteria, so I wouldn't -- you know,
this may be relevant to some extent and
influence your thinking, but you really need
to stick to the variance criteria.
MEMBER SIMON: I agree with that, but I'm
really speaking to the arguments on the other
side, which are also secondary to the varying
dimensions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
else who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving decision
until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6200 - ARTCO and Coastline
Cesspool & Drain Service
MEMBER DiNIZIO: "Request for Variances
under the Section 280-64A and 280-64C, based
on the Building Inspector's May 15, 2008
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
Notice of Disapproval concerning a proposed
new building for use as a cesspool and
drainage company. The reasons for
disapproving the building permit application
are: (1) the proposed construction is less
than the code-required minimum of 100 feet
from the right-of-way of each Corporate Road
and Commerce Drive, and (2) the proposed
building will have a building linear frontage
greater than the code maximum of 60 linear
feet along one street. Location of property:
525 Commerce Drive, Cutchogue (North Fork
Industrial Park Lot 9); CTM 1000-96-1-1.6.
Zone District: Light Industrial; Lot Size:
47,344 square feet."
Who's going to speak?
MR. PARK: I'll speak.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I see that --
MR. PARK: William Park.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not that we don't
know you and who is that lovely young lady
with you?
MR. PARK: This is my wife, Terry Park.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
Can I just ask you a quick question
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ZBA Town of Southold
before you start?
did you buy ARTCO?
September 25, 2008
Is ARTCO also in this or
MR. PARK: No, I bought out ARTCO
Cesspool and Drain years ago.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
MR. PARK: Which Artie Foster and I
started together and then I bought his half
out.
54
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I see. So you --
MR. PARK: So ARTCO Cesspool and Drain is
MR. PARK: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
their argument that
Certainly I agree with
one single building is
much better than having a couple of buildings
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I just needed to clear that up. Sorry.
What would you like to say?
MEMBER DINIZIO: The Planning Board looks
favorably on this and certainly we've had
discussions with them for quite some time.
ARTCO Drain.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, but Coastline
Cesspool exists as a separate corporation?
MR. PARK: Yes.
MS. PARK: No, it's a DBA {inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a DBA, okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
on there for the purposes of your uses;
that correct?
MR. PARK: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean what
going to go on in this building?
55
2008
is
is, exactly,
MR. PARK: Really it's a clean store
facility for our trucks and a shop as well as
an office in there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: They'll be inside that
building, the trucks?
MR. PARK: The trucks, yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So you need space to
back up, pull around and --
MR. PARK: Exactly.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The whole nine yards.
MR. PARK: That's really why we're trying
to push to the north to gain a little bit
larger rear yard so we can kind of maneuver
back there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I saw the parking is all
going to be taken care of by the Planning
Board, naturally.
MR. PARK: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: And I notice you
mentioned that too, so I wanted to mention
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
that also.
MR. PARK: Yes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so we'll address
the 70-foot. I mean, you need a bigger
building for any particular reason? I mean is
it --
MR. PARK: We're really just trying to
increase the size of the building so we can
house -- we've got ten pieces of equipment
that we'd like to get inside so that's really
why we're trying to increase the size of the
building.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. That's all I
have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a steel
building, Mr. Park?
MR. PARK: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And the building is
approximately how high?
MR. PARK: It's going to be 14-foot doors
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm showing 27 feet
does that look familiar to you, estimated?
MR. PARK: That's -- yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the center of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
the building. Okay,
MEMBER WEISMAN:
25, 2008
thank you.
You know I think you
57
already made it clear what are the reasons for
the 70-foot setback from both Commerce and
Corporate Roads. Let me ask you about the
variance for 100-foot of linear feet of the
elevation when the code says the maximum is 60
feet. Again, just for the record, I'd like
you to explain why that's an undifferentiated
elevation where the massing, you know, the
road is not broken up with some (inaudible) or
setbacks nothing like that to comply with the
code. So if you could just address that for
the record, I'd like to hear what you have to
say about that.
MR. PARK: Well, (inaudible) really it's
hard to increase the size of that building so
we can house our equipment. I tried to keep
it more (inaudible) and that's really it.
We're just trying to gain as much as we
possibly can on the north.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. PARK: And really keep our doors to
the south, you know, have a south exposure.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: What's the reason for
the south facing doors?
MR. PARK: In that particular area I
mean, if you did anything any other way I
think it would just be {inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, but why?
MR. PARK: Because of the weather.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. What about the
(inaudible) and go out the back, right?
MR. PARK: Exactly. I mean we tried to
keep the big doors to the south just for the
weather factor.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Certainly just to
continue the character of the area, this is
exactly what's there. They're all single
warehouses between the storage buildings and
the other units right next to you. It's
really a common use and certainly meets the
criteria of character of the neighborhood that
we often deal with.
You're proposing to fence and screen the
rear from the street on the site plan?
MR. PARK: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I have no further
questions.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any questions
on this. I just observe that the part of the
code that deals with 60-foot length and so
forth on these things are really not in
anticipation of this kind of an industrial
park. They have to do with strip malls and so
forth on a road and so I think there aren't
any clear rules that were designed for that
kind of a complex and the reasons that you're
giving for doing it the way you are seem to be
very persuasive as far as I'm concerned. So I
don't have any problem with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
MR. PARK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
I don't either, but
We'll see what
develops throughout the hearing. Is there
anybody who would like to speak for or against
this application?
Could you use this --
MR. CHITUK: Gene Chituk, owner of Chituk
Pools. I have a piece of property that's just
adjacent to Mr. Park's, just directly west.
Lot %9, if you have a survey in front of you,
but -- or lot 10. You're 107
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MR. PARK: You're 10.
MS. PARK: We're 9.
MR. CHITUK: Anyway I'm going to be up
here probably in a year or so asking for the
same variance that Bill is asking for. It
just makes sense to move the building a little
closer to the road and give yourself more rear
yard to store equipment, materials and stuff
like that. So I'm in favor of it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
Anybody else?
State your name for the record, please.
MR. WOLANSKY: Roman Wolansky from M&R,
we have that building right next to Bill's
lot. Also, the same as Gene said, his
building goes along with the same character as
our building. (Inaudible) level to
accommodate parking and turning around. I see
no problem with it.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
else?
You guys are wearing the carpet out.
Hello, Tom, how are you?
MR. FOSTER: I'm fine. I am across the
street from Bill and I have no problem with
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
it. I'm eventually going to put up
myself. So --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
else?
61
25, 2008
a building
Thank you. Anybody
Seeing no hands,
closing the hearing
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserving decision for
Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6204 - Robert Sommerville
MR. BOHN: Robert Bohn.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
to tell us, Mr. Bohn?
MR. BOHN: The proposed building is a
couple of feet over the square footage
allowed, that's why we're here. It's
unobtrusive to the road, to view. There's
three or four lots next to it that have
buildings that are much larger than what is
proposed to build. There's barns, there's a
(inaudible) building next door. There's three
houses to the east, each has
smaller pieces of property.
it's unobtrusive. Behind it
a building on
So like I said
is about an 8-
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
foot fence for a vineyard. To my knowledge
there's no objection from any of the
neighbors. Across the street is Mr.
Farnacker's (sic) property, which I believe
industrial commercial.
I think it seems to fit the area just
right and it's going to be for boat storage
62
is
(inaudible) will
just very simple
Let me apologize.
It seems I jumped the gun I thought this was
(inaudible) application. So I have to ask Mr.
Dinizio to read the legal notice, which we do
each time and we really had the first jump on
this, I apologize.
MR. BOHN: That's okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: "Request for a Variance
under Section 280-15, based on the Building
Inspector's June 10, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed accessory
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two or three outlets. No
come out of the building,
winter storage for a boat.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
only, an unfinished interior and no storage up
top to my knowledge. We have basically first
floor, no apartment concept; nothing like
that. Minimal electric, just for lights and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
garage with a size that will exceed the code
maximum of 660 square feet on this 14,600
square foot lot, at 545 Hummel Avenue,
Southold; CTM Parcel 1000-63-2-18."
MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean I really have no
questions. I understand what you're trying to
do here. I see there's a stairway in the
garage itself it looks like in the back of it
that goes up to the --
MR. BOHN: Yeah,
storage.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
there's a minimum
There's about a 6-foot
ceiling by the time you're done with the --
MR. BOHN: Crawl in there for a few
boxes.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, right. Life
preservers and stuff.
MR. BOHN: Ropes and such.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You have a lot of boat
trailers there so I'm assuming that's what
that's all about.
MR. BOHN: Yeah and aesthetically.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Any reason why it can't
be attached to the house?
MR. BOHN: I think for the security. The
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
house is an apartment situation and also to
keep his private property separate from the
people in the building. Not that they're bad
people, just it's easier for his access and
his usage to keep it tucked away in the back
corner so they'll have something of a yard.
MEMBER DINIZIO: The house is not an
apartment. The house is rented?
MR. BOHN: It's a rental situation.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, right. He's not
living there.
MR. BOHN: It's his house, it's -- right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: So he wants to be able
to store some stuff on his property and he
rents the house to somebody else.
MR. BOHN: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. That's all I
have.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just need to
discuss with you on the issue of the fact that
the requires -- the code -- Notice of
Disapproval refers to it has {inaudible) of
660 square feet and you're requesting for your
applicant 960 square feet. You sat through
one hearing, two hearings ago, where we asked
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
a gentleman about alternate relief. If the
Board is not so inclined to grant 960 square
feet, is your applicant willing, are you
representing, of course, to accept alternate
relief?
MR. BOHN: Meaning? Alternate relief
meaning?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A smaller building.
MR. BOHN: A smaller building, is really
not going to fit the use intended. That's the
reason we came here and Mr. Sommerville can
speak on that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do, Mr.
Sommerville?
MR. SOMMERVILLE: The idea is to be able
to take the trailers that you see, there's
trailers and boats and just be able to tuck
everything in there and make it nice so
there's not things
BOARD ASST.:
the record?
lying around. Okay?
Could we have your name for
MR. SOMMERVILLE: Robert Sommerville.
BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
MR. SOMMERVILLE: So that's the idea that
I need it to be that dimension so that the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
boat would go
boat would go
in on the trailer,
in on the trailer
25, 2008
the other
and we could
squeeze the other trailer in. We also would
make it exactly like the house, the same
siding. We are kind of in an industrial area
and we do have a 10-foot fence behind us.
Next door has two garages, there's one right
on the property line and another double garage
with another extension coming off of it and if
you go up and down the block you could see
it's certainly not out of character for the
neighborhood.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I really had to ask
that question, but I now, while you're there,
Mr. Sommerville, if you look --
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, the only thing
that I would disagree on is what Mr. Bohn said
that it will be pretty visible from the street
cause it'll be a pretty big building on this
road and if you look, it's right at the end of
that grassy area. You know, it won't be
visible particularly to the neighbors on
either side or to the grapes growing in the
back.
MR. BOHN: Exactly.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: But as you face your
house that building is really visible. I
guess that's the only convenient place for it,
for one thing. You have to just (inaudible)
the grass. You don't have to put driveway in
or --
MR. SOMMERVILLE: Right and be able to
maneuver a boat to get it in.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You can't (inaudible).
MR. SOMMERVILLE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's sited in a
functional place. I mean I have no problem
with that.
MR. SOMMERVILLE: I spoke to the
neighbors, none of them have an objection to
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: How many boats are you
putting in there? Did you say --
MR. SOMMERVILLE: Two boats.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- two boats and a
trailer?
MR. SOMMERVILLE: And there's a trailer.
MEMBER WEISMAN: These are powerboats I
take it?
MR. SOMMERVILLE: Correct.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
MEMBER WEISMAN: I have no further
questions.
MEMBER SIMON: that
I have no questions
68
2008
have not already been answered.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody like
to speak for or against this application?
I just want to explain, Mr. Sommerville,
that this is a relatively new law that has
gone on the books that this code has changed
and taken the square footage and placed a
maximum based upon the square footage of the
lot, based upon the size of these accessory
structures and that's the reason why I asked
the other question. Okay.
Seeing no hands, we'll make a motion to
close the hearing reservng decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6201 - John Gatanas
MEMBER SIMON: "Request for Variances
under Section 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's July 1, 20008 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed dwelling,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
after demolishing the existing dwelling and
accessory garage. The reason for disapproval
of the building permit application is that the
new construct will be less than the code-
required minimum of 35 feet from the front
yard lot line and rear yard lot line.
Location of Property: 445 Central Drive,
Mattituck; CTM 1000-106-3-22."
This is a corner lot and the house will
face on Central,
yard but for the
MR. NOTARO:
so (inaudible) it is the side
fact that it is (inaudible).
Good morning.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Good morning.
MR. NOTARO: I'm Frank Notaro. I'm the
architect for Mr. and Mrs. Gatanas.
When they came to us for plans they said
to us that they wanted to live in this house
year-round now. The existing house that's
there right now has some major structural
problems with the concrete block foundation,
drainage, etc. and they're looking to expand
it. Demolish the garage that's very close to
the one setback and plan a house that they're
going to live in year-round.
Since it is a corner lot it does pose
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
some difficulties because there are two front
yards. The work we did when we came up with
the design was to again set the front entrance
of the house on Central Drive, which is kind
of the main street in that area and we did
notice that the home directly adjacent to it
on Inlet Drive is pretty close to the front
yard, its front yard setback. So we chose, if
anything, that would have been the direction
we would try to get some kind relief on and
that's basically how the plan developed from
there.
We do have, I might add, they do have an
extended family and they -- you know, everyone
comes out on weekends to enjoy the house out
here.
If I can answer any questions, please?
MEMBER SIMON: I looked at it and it
seems to make some sense. I realize the new
house is going to be a good deal larger than
the other house and the only question would be
to figure where else on the lot could it have
been without (inaudible). What is the
distance to the setback on the other side
(inaudible)?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
MR. NOTARO: The other side is
MEMBER SIMON: 15 feet so it's
(inaudible)?
MR. NOTARO: Yes.
25, 2008
15 feet.
MEMBER SIMON: So you couldn't be -- it
couldn't be any less than that?
MR. NOTARO: Correct. There is a house
pretty close to --
MEMBER SIMON: I don't have any further
questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You don't have a lot
coverage issue and the second floor was cut
back from what -- reducing the overall bulk
and certainly it's in keeping with all of the
demo and construction that's going on in the
neighborhood and it makes sense to have the
front elevation with Central and the house on
the other side is set far back, significantly
far back. So I don't really see a problem
with it. No questions.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll see
what develops throughout the hearing. Is
there anybody else who would like to speak in
favor or against this application?
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
Yes, ma'am?
State your name for the record.
MRS. GATANAS: (Inaudible) Gatanas.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
MRS. GATANAS: Okay, thank you.
I only wanted to say that the house we
got from 1977. (Inaudible) was a summer
house. Now we have eight grandchildren and
everybody loves Mattituck like we do. So we
want to stay in my house all year-round and we
want to have weekends and summertime and
wintertimes so that's why we say we have to
expand to do something better in the
neighborhood and for us, too. So the only
thing we ask if we can do this house.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good, thank
you.
MRS. GATANAS: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment from anyone,
closing the hearing,
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
I'll make a motion
reserve decision until
Motion.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
HEARING #6199 - Thomas and Mae Mauri
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: "Request for a
Variance under Section 280-15, based on the
Building Inspector's July 2, 2008 Notice of
Disapproval concerning the applicants'
proposal additions and alterations to an
existing single-family dwelling, with
demolition of an attached deck {pool
surround). The reason for disapproving the
building permit application is that the
proposed work will result in the existing
accessory swimming pool being located in a
yard other than the code-required rear yard,
at 1070 Critten's Lane, Southold; CTM 1000-70-
12-9.2."
Mrs. Moore,
(inaudible)?
MRS. MOORE:
straightforward.
can you tell us your
This is actually relatively
It is a technical variance
and the pool is not moving, it's staying where
it is. Mrs. Mauri is here so she can help me
describe whatever or answer questions that you
might have. They are doing an addition to the
house and because the addition is part of the
rear yard, it puts the pool into a side yard,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
technical side yard, because the rear of the
house now becomes the back end of the new
addition. So, again, the pool is not moving
but the house is being modified around the
pool. It's straightforward.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Just one question. The
fence that's around the existing pool, is that
going to remain?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MEMBER WEISMAN: You need to come up
here.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MRS. MAURI: Hi. It would definitely be
of fence because I have
don't want to worry with
Okay, just for the
record, so that you know, we have received a
letter of support from (Inaudible) your
neighbor so that's in the record. It is
really technical, so this happens frequently
and it's almost annoying that it has to come
before the Board, but nevertheless, I don't
have any questions or issues. It's just --
not too much is changing except you're
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grandchildren and I
the pool.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
technically no longer attached because of the
decking being removed.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a very odd shape
lot. It's a very large lot. You have lots of
room so it's not a problem for me.
MEMBER SIMON: No questions.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No questions from
me.
Would anybody else like to speak against
or in favor of this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing, reserving decision for
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6197 - Howard and Dorothy Zehner
MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance
under Section 280-125, based on the Building
Inspector's June 27, 2007 amended Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed addition and
alterations to an existing single-family
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ZBA Town of Southold -
dwelling, for the
construction will
September 25, 2008
reason that the new
be less than the code-
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required minimum rear yard setback of 35 feet,
at 650 Moore's Lane North, Greenport; CTM
Parcel 1000-33-2-40."
The representative and Mr. Zehner.
MS. MARTIN: Amy Martin of Fairweather-
Brown, 205 Bay Avenue in Greenport.
I have the proposed (inaudible).
We have a situation where Mr. Zehner and
Mrs. Zehner are in contingent building lot so
they'd like to put an addition of a garage,
changing the existing garage to a family room
and put an addition of a garage on the south
side of the house, which would be 26 feet from
the property line rather than the 35 feet that
is code-required. There is a swimming pool on
the separate lot and the lot coverage is well
within necessary. So the only thing that we
have is the nonconforming request for 26 feet
rather than 35.
MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. The Zehners own the
lot to the rear.
that lot there is
MS. MARTIN:
Right now the only thing on
a swimming pool?
Yes. It's a very unusual
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ZBA Town of
thing in that it's
MEMBER SIMON:
Southold - September 25, 2008
Right. So for whatever
reason, if for example they had merged these
two lots, you wouldn't be here.
MS. MARTIN: Right.
MEMBER SIMON: I also noticed that the
location of the new garage is essentially
where they park their
already paved.
MS. MARTIN: Yes,
cars right now. It's
partially yes.
MEMBER SIMON:
questions, actually.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
the -- I'll find the
Well, I don't have any
I just want to know what
-- what is the current
rear yard setback and how much will the garage
reduce it?
You have to come to the microphone.
BOARD ASST.: State your name, please.
MR. ZEHNER: Howard Zehner. The decking
in the back of the house is the most rearward
part of the buildings. The deck had to be 35
feet from the property line and it is.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
MR. ZEHNER: So the deck is the most
rearward part of the house (inaudible) now and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
it is just 35 feet 6 inches I believe from the
rear property line.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
proposed garage will
feet?
Alright. So the
reduce that setback by 9
MR. ZEHNER: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: No further questions.
MR. ZEHNER: This is all because I bought
a vintage '65 Mustang Convertible, which is
rust free, and I gotta have room for that and
at least one of my other cars as a -- anyway
since I got this Mustang we did it. You'll
notice my wife is not here, she's not sure at
our age we should be doing this. So --
MEMBER SIMON: So the variance is a
Mustang variance?
MR. ZEHNER: Yes and a life variance.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Listen I'm from Detroit
so, believe me, I can identify with Mustang.
Alright.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have any
particular questions. I think it's an
appropriate location where you want to propose
this garage.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
We'll see if anybody in the audience
does. Would anybody like to speak for or
against this application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing reserving decision until
later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6205 - Ronald Pollio
MEMBER SIMON: "Request for a Variance
under Section 280-124, based on the Building
Inspector's July 18, 20007 Notice of
Disapproval concerning a proposed deck
addition on a nonconforming 6,999 square foot
parcel, which new construction will be less
than the code-required minimum of 10 feet on a
single side yard setback and less than 35 feet
on the minimum front yard setback, at 165
Second Street, New Suffolk; CTM 1000-117-10-
20.5."
MR. LEHNERT:
Expediting.
Mr.
Robert Lehnert for Permit
We're proposing an expansion of a deck on
Pollio's house. If you notice, anything
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ZBA Town of
we do is
setback.
Southold - September 25, 2008
going to violate the front yard
90% of the entire house is there.
He'd like to take advantage of the view to the
water and the park across the street. This is
the only side we could possibly do that on and
we also made it -- we're proposing 12 feet
wide just to get the greatest use out of the
deck.
MEMBER SIMON: I have a -- (inaudible)
across the street by the way. I also have it
as (inaudible) to me that would have been the
crucial item because there is the neighbor --
the one neighbor who is affected by the side
setback and they've (inaudible) on this.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER SIMON: Given that and the
tightness of the area, I don't really see any
reason for questions. Just to point out the
reduced setback on the roadside would simply
be extended. It already exists. Nothing
would be closer to the road.
MR. LEHNERT: Nothing would be closer to
the road. We're going to keep
the line of the house.
MEMBER SIMON: There's no
it in line with
objection to
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
the side it's on, it's well screened.
have any questions.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The only question I have
is that you have an existing shower there.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: When you begin to move
that boundary to 6.5 feet, the diagonal space,
that corner between the proposed deck and that
shower --
MR. LEHNERT:
to be moved.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
81
2008
I don't
MR. LEHNERT: It's not going to work. We
know that already.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine. That was my issue
because I know doggone well there's no way
you're getting that proposed deck and the
shower. So you wouldn't object to condition
this based upon the moving of the --
MR. LEHNERT: Not a problem, we plan on
it.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- relocation of the
shower?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Fine, that's my only
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The shower is going to have
Okay.
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ZBA Town of
question.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
sky; is that correct?
Southold - September 25,
questions.
This is
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2008
open to the
I will make a motion to
reserve decision until
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6187 - Ryan and Jennifer Stork
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Fitzgerald, how
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Seeing no one,
close the hearing,
later.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Let's see if
there's anybody else.
Is there anybody else who'd like to speak
for or against this application?
MR. LEHNERT: Yes. There's retaining
walls across the whole front of the house,
right now.
MR. LEHNERT: Completely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So any access,
since the garage is underneath the house, any
access to the rear yard is pretty much blocked
by the hill anyway. So any rear access would
be to the side yard to the north?
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
are you today, sir?
MR. FITZGERALD: Fine. Thank you, sir,
how are you?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you aware that
we really can't hear this hearing and we will
verbalize what you have given us and that's,
I'm sure, what you wanted to say.
MR. FITZGERALD: No, I thought what I
would do was just save the (inaudible) and ask
a few questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. FITZGERALD:
next month.
Save the good stuff for
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MR. FITZGERALD: First let me say there
is a slower clock in town it's on an exercise
machine in (inaudible).
My questions, are we going to be on for
next month?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the bad
news.
BOARD ASST.: We didn't get the check yet
for the -- you need to give us a check for the
amendment.
MR. FITZGERALD: Alright. You need a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
check in order to get on next month.
BOARD ASST.: That money is for your
application so we can process it.
MR. FITZGERALD: Because the guy's in
London, rather he lives in London. Okay, well
we'll work that out. Presumably since this is
not an official thing will the comments and
the speech that I made the last time, will
that apply to the new or do you want me to do
that again the next hearing?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have different
circumstances so I would suggest, I'm not
directing you, but I'm just telling you that I
certainly would address those new issues that
you have.
MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will tell you
that I would like to inspect the, since you
have incorporated in this a garage apartment,
I would like to inspect as well as any Board
member is certainly welcome to inspect with
me.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, I will state to
you the occasion.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MR. FITZGERALD: Alright,
questions or comments from the
85
are there any
Board for those
people that looked at the new plan?
MEMBER WEISMAN: I (inaudible) what
you're proposing. I think (inaudible) to
discuss it at the time of hearing. It would
be helpful to restate and go back and look at
what you propose to do. (Inaudible) major
change and restructure (inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just as a caveat to
that, anytime you make anything more
conforming as to location, that's a plus and
I'll just leave it at that. I'm talking about
the accessory structure.
MB. FITZGERALD: Okay, I don't have
anything else.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
We will adjourn this hearing to --
BOARD ASST.: We're adjourning it to
allow filing of an amended application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
BOARD ASST.: (Inaudible) that the
applicant is paid it can be advertised for a
hearing date.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so it will be
adjourned without a date then until that
point. I offer that as a resolution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6180 - Pine Neck Holdings
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is Mr.
Lehnert.
MR. LEHNERT: Yes. What you have before
you is the revised proposal for Pine Neck
Holdings, a revised deck. The last time we
were here we had a deck that was proposed at
36 foot 7 from the bulkhead. We're coming
back now with one that's 45 foot 6 from the
bulkhead. Most of the deck that we're
proposing now is back into the side yard. We
have a little piece that goes forward on an
angle to catch the view of the water. I think
this is what the Board had requested when you
spoke to that at the last hearing.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I just have one
question. In the new plan you've left the
square on there where the old deck was, the
proposed deck, I'm wondering why.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MR. LEHNERT: The square of the old?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. On this new plan
you left a diagram of the outline of the --
MR. LEHNERT: That's the existing fence
that happens to be on the site.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Oh, alright. I just
thought it was --
MR. LEHNERT: That's not the old deck.
That's the fence --
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible).
MR. LEHNERT: That's not going, there's
an existing fence. There is an existing set
of steps that are going to be removed. We're
going to remove those.
Yeah, we have building plans ready for
interior alteration.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's all I have.
MR. LEHNERT: We want to put this all
together.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the plan
looks good.
MEMBER WEISMAN: We had one interim plan
where you had a setback of 49.9.
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, we kept it flat and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
the client saw that and didn't like it.
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2008
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) change the
perimeter of the house there's a couple of
(inaudible) plans in back of --
MR. LEHNERT: No, the only difference
we're showing is the fireplace.
the
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're just popping out,
hard line (inaudible).
MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, the hard line of the
chimney.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, fine. I mean,
I think it's a reasonable compromise. It's
just that it's not going to be beyond the
house for a terribly long length.
MR. LEHNERT: No. We kept it -- tried to
keep it in line with the existing stairs that
were already there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well that's pretty
minimal that it's just popping out a little
bit beyond the house. I really don't have any
problems with it. It's fine. The setback is
then now 45 as opposed --
MR. LEHNERT: As opposed to 36.7.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Alright.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is the description
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
open to the sky?
MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
MEMBER SIMON: The reason for the extra
four feet from 45 -- from 39 back to 40 is --
the justification is that's how far the
stairway extended?
MR. LEHNERT: We also wanted to get a
little more water view towards the side of the
house down the creek. We weren't getting that
with -- the interim plan that we had posed, we
weren't getting that with a flush deck.
MEMBER SIMON: Okay. No further
questions.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
who would like to speak for or against this
application?
Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
closing the hearing and reserving the decision
for later.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6154 & 6207 - Henry Treandly
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir?
MR. TREANDLY: Mr. Chairman, members of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
the Board, Town Counsel,
apologies for (inaudible)
2008
Board Assistant, my
notice. I'm going
to ask you to allow me to carry this over at
this point. I've also put this in writing. I
felt more comfortable coming in seeing you. I
hope this hasn't caused any disruption. I do
apologize, but it's imperative for us to do so
at this point. That's both hearings in
general.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. sir.
MR. TREANDLY: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we will adjourn
without a date based upon your request.
MR. TREANDLY: I'd like the next
available date, if you can do that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want the next
available date.
MR. TREANDLY: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, that's either
going to be December or January.
MR. TREANDLY: That's fine, sir.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So it'll be
January, the first January 8.
MR. TREANDLY: That'll be fine.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we will
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2008
ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
adjourn this to January 8, 2009 at the
applicant's request and authorize a
resolution.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING %6206 - Jennifer Jacobs
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to address
the Jennifer Jacobs and Clayton Gates issue.
I need to request from the Board a resolution
or I'll make the resolution to adjourn this
hearing without a date. This has been the
second or third adjournment. It's held the
calendar up so --
BOARD ASST.: And cancel this hearing.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and cancel this
hearing.
BOARD ASST.: We advertised it so
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So I'm going to
cancel this hearing and adjourn it without a
date.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll second that.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
HEARING #6202
MEMBER WEISMAN:
2008
Bud George Holman
"Request for Variances
under Sections 280-14 and 280-116, based on
the Building Inspector's May 20, 2008 Notice
of Disapproval concerning an as-built porch
enclosure and deck addition to the existing
dwelling, which are less than the code-
required minimum of 15 feet on a side yard in
this R-40 Zone, and less than 75 feet from the
bulkhead adjacent to Great Peconic Bay, at 350
Park Avenue, Mattituck; CTM 1000-123-7-8."
The representative is here.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
notice of appearance.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
Just give us a
Good afternoon. My
name Gail Wickham (inaudible) in Mattituck
representing the Holmans who are here today.
In all my years of hearings I have to say
this is probably one of the most deminimus
(sic) that I've seen and I hope the Board
would agree. As to the deck, it is 1 foot off
the required side yard setback on one corner
and it's separated from the neighboring
property further to the west by two huge
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
hedges through which a right-of-way to the
beach goes for the benefit of the Homeowner's
Association across the street or for the
right-of-way rather.
Mr. Holman just told me that actually
when the deck was built he had a (inaudible)
survey they were working off of that showed he
was a foot and a half or 16.5 feet away, but
unfortunately when he -- he no longer has that
survey and when he went down and asked Collin
at the (inaudible) office for it, it couldn't
be located. It wasn't until they had this
recent survey that they realized that they
were actually shy by a foot in one corner.
It is a iow deck with a couple of planter
boxes around in lieu of railings. So it
really is not a structure that would create
any huge imposition on the property side yard.
The porch is similarly as to the bulkhead
setback, within the original footprint of the
house that was approved and no variance was
required at that time for that. They merely
got tired of carrying their screens in and out
every year and so they enclosed it with a more
formal enclosure, but it is the same footprint
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
as the original permit. I think your file
shows that.
So if you have any questions Mr. Holman
and I would be glad to try and answer them.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The bulkhead looks
(inaudible). It's very well maintained. It's
{inaudible) the bulkhead is sandy and weed
covered and there is extensive hedgerow
screening on both sides for the original porch
-- deck, you know, was in place and simply
became a heated interior space with a bay
window added as I understand.
MS. WICKHAM: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The deck on the side
that is there still provides ample side yard
for ingress and egress and is relatively small
and yeah there is a rather large pine tree
there that's kind of intrudes into the side
yard, but we can forget about that one. I
don't really have -- there is a very large
other side yard anyway. So I don't see a
problem here. I think this is (inaudible)
side yard setback is really negligible and the
other is taking an existing footprint and
enclosing it for year-round occupation instead
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
of seasonal. So I think that summarizes it.
I don't really have any additional questions.
This deck was added about 20 years age?
MS. WICKHAM: The deck was (inaudible)
yeah, it's in the application.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah.
MS. WICKHAM: It's been there about 20
years.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that's about
1971 it says here that the heat and the bay
95
window?
MS. WICKHAM:
on the porch was
built.
That's when the enclosure
done shortly after it was
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Okay. It's
straightforward. I'm (inaudible) application
and I don't -- 66 feet as opposed to 75 feet
from the bulkhead. The bulkhead is in very
good shape. It's straight in line (inaudible)
flat, so I don't see a problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I have no questions.
CHAIRMJ~N GOEHRINGER: No questions?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Nope.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no
questions. It's a straightforward
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
application.
MS. MARTIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody in the
audience --
Mr. Holman, it's always nice to come down
to your home. It's very nice. It's a
beautiful spot.
MR. HOLMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're very cordial
for showing us and I appreciate that also.
MR. HOLMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hearing no further
comment, I will make a motion closing the
hearing and reserving decision until later.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
(See Minutes for Resolution.)
HEARING #6188 - Richard Manfredi
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
I am actually going -- because I wasn't
here for -- I actually was here and I listened
to part of the presentation last time, but I
want to go over some of the standards and
criteria for the record. You had Mr. Notaro
here before, but I do want to raise some
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
issues and point out some of the facts here.
To begin with, when we talk about the
character of the coramunity I -- the proposal
that's before you is just to make alterations
to the existing house putting the second floor
over the existing footprint and for the second
floor there's actually less square footage of
the second floor than the first floor,
existing first floor.
To give you an idea of this community,
Mr. Manfredi's wife has been part of this
community for about three generations. Her
uncle was Dr. Eugene Fisher, who was the old
veterinarian in Southold was where Dr.
(inaudible), but Dr. Fisher was -- this was
the family compound. Marjorie Burns developed
the subdivision and Dr. Fisher owned the
property next door. The Manfredi family
bought one of the lots here, so it's been a
family compound where different family members
all lived within this community.
What is being proposed is a bedroom,
we're moving the bedrooms to the second floor.
I believe the design shows that it is one
bedroom and a study, but for purposes of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
Health Department it's technically two
bedrooms and that's really -- it's a very
minor square footage. You're used to dealing
with very large proposals and this is, at most
I think, last time it was testified to by Mr.
Notaro it's about 12-1300 square feet in
total, first and second floor combined.
There was a keen observation at the last
hearing that the second floor is actually cut
back two feet from the line of the first floor
and this again the reason for the variance
here is because we have nonconforming side
yard. The existing houses and the lots here
are nonconforming, preexisting nonconforming,
and this house is cut in two
goes up. I'll have Frank go
again for you because it is,
feet and then it
over the design
you know, I
probably use wrong terminology, but
terminology I'm familiar with, which is that
you start with the reverse peaks in the
nonconforming lines and it actually, I guess,
I understand it's knee walls where you start
the height lower and you bring the peak up so
that you have the volume towards the center
and that's a typical way of, actually a very
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
sensitive way of working with preexisting
nonconforming setbacks because you are not at
that point raising the second floor walls up
to the maximum height.
You are keeping everything iow and in
proportion and I know that at the last hearing
you noticed that and commented favorably to
Mr. Notaro's design. So that is something
that I would emphasize here that it is a
design that we really want to keep and from
your observations of the home that he has here
and, again in the context, it's very small,
it's very to scale. It's -- Mr. Manfredi's --
homes in this neighborhood are very small and
unlike the other homes that have been built
here, which have grown expanding their
footprint, he has kept his footprint to the
existing. The house is to scale to the size
of the parcel. So I commend him for that and
that is the plan that is before you.
The surrounding neighborhood, as I
pointed out, are similar in the sense that
they are two-story homes. I believe that the
only house which is one and a half story at
this point is the Hovey's home, which is about
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
50 feet back. It's an adjacent property;
however, if you look at where the house is the
parcel to the east is at conforming setbacks.
They actually rebuilt. That's the one that is
somewhat not at -- to the taste of the rest of
the neighborhood. I don't want to insult the
property owner because they obviously like the
home that they've built, but it is a house
that is large and really imposing in volume
and scale with respect to compared to this
house and it will be a large volume in
comparison to the home that we have here
before you, that's the (inaudible) house.
Mr. Reeve is here and Mr. Reeve's house
is further back up on the hill. He overlooks
everyone and his home is -- when he was able
to, I guess, convince Mr. (inaudible) to
adjust the placement of the house so that he
apparently was not in need of variances, we're
not aware of variances, but he was able to
position the (inaudible) house in such a way
that the Reeves' views to the water were not
impacted.
We have no -- we have the same view, but
there are trees in the way. So we -- our
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
views are somewhat blocked off by the
101
2008
(inaudible) house, but again there's no legal
right to a view and Mr. Manfredi didn't object
or say anything and you know, that's the way
it is. If you want a waterfront house and you
want views, you get a waterfront house. So
that is a sense of the design of the
neighborhood.
I read Mrs. Hovey's complaints and they
tend to be more related to the (inaudible)
house, the large kind of somewhat flat-roof
design, and I guess that was her main
objection. She wasn't happy about the fact
that there's another house in the neighborhood
that's going to be renovated, but that's, you
know, time goes on and people renovate their
homes.
There is no height variance here
requested. The only variance, again, is on
the side yard and it is as I pointed out,
again, reverse peak so that the volume -- it's
keeping the volume iow and Frank is certainly
more capable than I am to describe the
architectural style.
Again, pointing out that with respect to
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
the degree
the existing house
There is no change
the house is where
of nonconformity, the first
is just as it is now.
to it. The placement of
it is. We are really, we
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2008
floor,
are dealing solely with the roofline here and
the alterations to a second floor. This is
one and a half story and we're making the
living space on the second floor habitable,
meaning that the ceiling heights will be code.
I know you know what that means, I know many
but I just want to place it on the
of you do,
record.
Again,
architect,
community,
Mr. Notaro was mindful as a local
respected architect in this
he is familiar with the sensibility
of this community. I gather it was a
discussion generally of a pyramid law, but
this is trying to keep in perspective the goal
of the pyramid law and again the volumes,
keeping the volumes proportional to the
setbacks that you have and that is precisely
what he tried to do here.
There are no environmental issues here.
The only wetland is at the edge of the
(inaudible) Wetlands is across the road and
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
the Trustees have approved this proposed plan.
So at this point I do want to have Frank go
over a drawing that he submitted and describe
it a little more thoroughly for you and
hopefully we can answer whatever questions you
might have.
MR. NOTARO: My name is Frank Notaro.
I'm the architect for Mr. and Mrs. Manfredi.
Just a little rehash at the end of our
presentation last week, due to the attempt to
alleviate some of the concerns of the
neighbors, I had conferred with my client and
he agreed to actually lower the roof of the
proposed house, which we did and we presented
that drawing the following day to you and also
clip the gable ends off the house, which we
also did in giving you a revised plan the next
day.
Subsequently we were then given letters
sent to you by different neighbors with
different design suggestions. I think you've
seen architectural designs come past this
Board, but there's probably 150 different
solutions for any one site, according to the
requirements and the design of the architects.
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Again, we attempted on the second floor
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addition to bring it in. As a matter of fact,
if you bring it in on the left side it
actually becomes a conforming side, the second
floor. Again, we still had the plans for Mr.
Manfredi, he wanted a master bedroom suite
upstairs. His view is totally blocked now by
the dwelling next door to this that's
partially brought this about. Also, his son
is actually going to be living in this house.
So I can answer any questions you might
have at this time.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's interesting
that the impact of this project is somewhat
similar to what caused us to look at every one
of these applications back to the day of the
building in East Marion and in that situation
although the house was much larger it was a
similar type piece of property. What we did
or what the applicant did on the side closest
for a side yard, significant side yard
reduction was to actually decrease the house
on the second story about 8 feet in, you're 4
feet in right now. I'm just mentioning that
because I'm remembering what occurred when we
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
had originally looked at that application.
I don't know if there's any answer to the
idea of mass and based upon our code as it
exists at this time and it's what the Board
would address and what the Board feels
comfortable with based upon the testimony by
you as the professional, by counsel as the
attorney for and what the neighbors are
dealing with in reference to their concerns.
What had occurred here and I have to go
back and tell you is that during one of the
hearings regarding an application of August
was they had asked somebody to write a letter,
and they proceeded to write a letter.
Unfortunately, we didn't know they were going
to write a letter or letters and so the
purpose of this hearing is to -- was to mainly
accept the letters and to take further
testimony to see if some type of an agreement
could occur. So that's where we are at this
point.
MRS. MOORE: May I
regarding Walz? I just
that in a sense. Here
just make a point
wanted to distinguish
(inaudible) didn't
object, but there was certainly controversy
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
that the neighbors -- it would have been as if
we were objecting to (inaudible), the house
next door, which is now built. That's the
volume that you'd be addressing in the Walz
decision where you have two neighbors where
the houses were exactly even with each other
and it would be like having two mirror images
of what's there now with the complaint by ome
neighbor to the other about the volume there,
the amount of lighting, air and so on that one
house is going to be on top of the other. We
don't have that circumstance here, but we
object to our neighbor that's built up, but
there's nothing to be said about that. That's
done and that's conforming or it got built
however it got built.
The objectants, Mr. and Mrs. Hovey, are
50 feet away from the rear. They actually do
not -- are not adjacent to the structure
itself, they are, as I said, 50 feet back it's
along their front yard and what Frank did, I
think in his design, was to recognize the Walz
objections that generally are raised with
respect to trying to keep volumes proportional
and that's why you see the reverse peaks of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
that -- I don't want to speak out of turn, but
I think that that's -- there is actually a
number of drawings and I think you need to
describe this a little bit further so that
they can see why we are not the Walz decision
because this would be -- if we were asking for
this, this is what the Walz decision
was trying to address.
MR. NOTARO: Actually, if I may just
clarify that a little bit. I did a drawing
and if I may approach --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. NOTARO: It was suggested to do a
gable (inaudible). This is a rough outline.
This is what we could have come to the Board
with.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
MR. NOTARO: Going up, straight up just
as next door with the mass. Approximate
distance is (inaudible) at a little of an
angle so it's not totally accurate in terms of
distance. It's easier to draw on top of an
existing (inaudible) shallow roof here, but
you also have to be able to walk by it and it
has to meet state code for heights. This is
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
an 8-foot ceiling in this space. This
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2008
reflects that 8-foot ceiling. You can't start
bringing that down and elongate the hallways
that you have further back.
Mr. Manfredi could have also (inaudible),
he chose not to. That increase was
(inaudible) partially. So we could have
presented this. The problem with this is when
you're standing down here on the road this
looks like a flat-roof, basically, because as
you're looking up with a very shallow perch it
gets flatter and flatter. So aesthetically
Mr. Manfredi thinks this is horrible. I did
this one earlier as an exercise to show the
comparison of what would happen, not with the
(inaudible) approximately a foot and a half,
which we've already lowered per the
suggestions at the last meeting, Mr. Manfredi
suggested it.
I mean this we could have come up with in
five minutes and presented it to the Board.
Basically, is going from two side yard
setbacks and that could have been what this
looks like.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Has this gentleman
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
seen this?
MR. NOTARO: I don't
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
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25, 2008
know.
Why don't you show
that to them so
of that.
MRS. MOORE:
minutes?
that they are at least aware
Do you want to take five
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It makes sense
because we're on the issue right now.
MRS. MOORE: Okay.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to address
one thing regarding Walz because it will
always indelibly be on my mind.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, go ahead.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Board raised
the issue on the northeasterly side of the
(inaudible) house, unfortunately, because it
was a conforming side yard on the westerly
side, which was really where the complaint
was, there were no complaints on the easterly
side. They were happy that their houses were
8 feet apart on both sides, excuse me, 16
feet, 8 feet and 8 feet or thereabouts. It
was the Board that raised that issue of Walz
on the easterly side. We said that you only
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
have 5, 6, 7 feet and you're going up one and
two and a half stories, you can't put a ladder
on this property and be on the same property.
Unfortunately, there was nothing they could do
on the opposite side because it's conforming
and that is the reason why we understood and
raised the issue, which we of course heard all
of the testimony, but there was absolutely
nothing we could do about that side.
So I'm just making you aware of that.
MRS. MOORE: Okay, I guess I was the
(inaudible) because I represented that
neighbor and we looked at it and it was the
conforming side, so there was really very
little that that neighbor could say.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE: But I know it was an issue
that we looked at.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right and there is
a great difference in elevation on that side.
MRS. MOORE: Exactly, the one with the
(inaudible) and one was the two and a half
story house.
CHAIRMAN
GOEHRINGER: Right, exactly.
MRS. MOORE: Again, that was different
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
and the distinguishing characteristic here is
that we are -- there is a second story.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
real estate so unique.
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
elevations play a big issue
we deal with.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
That's what makes
Nothing is flat and
in everything that
And Mr. Notaro, I
apologize.
MR. NOTARO:
MRS. MOORE:
record?
MR. NOTARO:
it.
You were going to say something.
Oh.
DO they have this
I stamped it,
for the
they can have
MRS. MOORE: We're going to submit it for
your records, the drawing which shows the west
elevation and the adjacent dwelling and how
the roof change that Mr. Reeve had suggested
would cause the design to be significantly
altered. Certainly, we have to keep in mind
that a property owner hires a design
professional and it is -- you have to trust
and respect the design professional's advice.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
It's a little bit disconcerting and I can say
that because I'm not the architect, I know
that it's really insulting for an architect to
be -- to have someone else design what is, you
know, work product.
So I would ask you to please respect Mr.
Notaro's design that it is well thought out.
It is kept trying to address all of the
policies that you are always mindful of and we
understand compromise, we really do, but we
started with a design that was in effect a
compromise. It was less than what he could
have come in with and asked for. In fact, Mr.
Reeve who is behind is pushing the house --
the roof down which means it makes it go
wider, but that actually would, in effect,
really be inconsistent with my client's goals
here. It undermines the architectural design
that was attempted here and, honestly, I don't
know that Mr. and Mrs. Hovey understand that
because the volumes are going to get larger
and wider up on the top by the flattening of
the roof. So I know they sent a letter and
said well, we like Mr. Reeves' design. I'm
not sure that they can visualize exactly what
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
is going on because this is what the affect is
and that's certainly something that none of us
want.
Certainly Mr. Manfredi didn't hire a very
skilled architect to design something like
this.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you sit
down.
MRS. MOORE: Yes?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We, as a Board,
have not gotten a chance to question the
architect or yourself regarding this. It's
really doing (inaudible).
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, we are confused by
the explanation about lowering the roof. Are
you saying then that you're going to go closer
to the property line or --
MRS. MOORE: No, no. What we have --
Frank, you can come and look over my shoulder,
is this --
MR. NOTARO: Let me clarify, we're not
proposing lowering it, the roof, any lower
than we proposed at the last meeting.
MEMBER WEISMAN: But Mr. Reeve
(inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
MR. NOTARO: Right. Ail we did -- that
was a simple exercise to show that lowering
the pitch of the roof creates more of a
massive dwelling than having a steeper pitch
to the roof.
MEMBER DINIZIO: You're saying that
perception, I mean -- if you lowered the pitch
it would move the walls out?
MRS. MOORE: It would have to because of
the ceiling heights.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's what I'm
saying. Lowering the roof doesn't give you --
MR. NOTARO: Let me clarify that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. You're going to
need more relief by lowering the roof.
MR. NOTARO: No. Take -- okay. Lowering
the pitch of the roof, okay, we could have
left the walls exactly where they were on the
left and right sides on the second floor. Ail
we did was just a simple exercise to show what
possible massing with a lower pitch roof that
we could have come to the Board for a decision
on. It could have also been put in a little
bit further because we have eight foot at that
point where it comes in where we presented the
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ZBA Town of Southold September 25, 2008
original proposal with this shallower pitch
roof. So it could work -- it could still work
in like that with the shallow pitch roof.
Unfortunately, the perception again was that
it looks like a flat roof when viewing it from
the grade because it's such a shallow pitch on
a two-story house. It's a great way to max
out space in a house.
What we're not really showing you is that
Mr. Manfredi's master bedroom has certain
compromises in it. There are clipped ceilings
in his proposed house, in the master bedroom
with that reverse gable that you see in the
house. So that's not a full 8-foot wall to
the corners, the four points, of this bedroom.
We actually put closets in those corners
because they're less than 5-foot high. So
you're actually -- but what it does do is it
adds a certain aesthetic also to the room, but
it is not a full-size cubic room, in other
words, 8-foot high by length by width. So
there is a bit of a compromise on that first
floor master bedroom, you know, again --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm not looking for
compromise, I'm looking for your explanation
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
versus what this gentleman supported and, you
know what, I thought you were telling me that
if you had to lower the roof like Mr. Reeves
asked you to then you're at -- you're going to
need more --
MRS. MOORE: Volume.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MR. NOTARO: Well, it does create more
volume. It's just the --
MEMBER DINIZIO: How does it increase the
volume of you don't increase the footprint?
MR. NOTARO: Maybe I can draw another
sketch. This is a (inaudible) sketch of what
we have proposed for Mr. Manfredi's house.
Inside the house you don't have full-height
walls here. So you take the volume of this as
opposed to doing this with a shallow pitch
roof like this. In order to take that roof
all the way back to have a reverse coming in
the opposite direct, in order to take that all
the way back I don't have enough room to get
out of this small room so it has to go further
out -- I'm sorry, not further out in the
reverse gable. In other words, if you're
still work from here and here the walls don't
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
have to come in.
But what happens is you'd have to take
that entire frame out and take it all the way
back because you have to get out of this
bedroom here to the stair, down the stair.
This is a pitched roof and this is where it
compromises somewhat his design because these
aren't full-heights walls. In order to make
the design work here, we have to take the
entire shallow pitch roof and bring the whole
thing way out to here.
In my aesthetic judgment, I don't think
that's a very good solution.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it's also simply
the fact that doing that what people are
having visualizing, what you just submitted, I
want to clarify this for the record was an
example, an explanation. This is not a new
design. I want that clear for the record
because that's --
MRS. MOORE: It's not submitted, it's an
example.
MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to be clear that
this is also (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: This is part of the exhibit
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
(inaudible).
MEMBER WEISMAN:
(Inaudible) and what you
submitted reduced the bulk. The setbacks of
the walls on the second floor are exactly as
in your original proposal.
MRS. MOORE: They're cut in a bit.
MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's less massive
looking.
MR. NOTARO:
The reason
this same pitch
Right.
I took -- excuse me. I took
so you can actually see the
pitch that's up there on the other house right
now and to see what
story home.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
it looks like as a two-
As opposed to what
you've submitted as a design proposal.
MR. NOTARO: Even when we went
at first with Pat, Pat was a little
She thought
here. It's
So it's not
that affect.
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible).
MR. NOTARO: Every time you look at a
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confused.
this was like a massive wall up
not. It's a receding large roof.
-- you really, honestly, don't see
This is a view standing on a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
pitch on a roof it's changing the visual --
MEMBER WEISMAN: As you step back.
MR. NOTARO: You see this (inaudible)
this wall as you're stepping back.
MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) understand
that with the (inaudible) an asymmetric
drawing or with a physical model.
MRS. MOORE: Right.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's very tough to
visualize an accurate elevation that has
(inaudible). I just want to be sure that what
is reflected that what we have -- what you
submitted previously, the day after the last
hearing, is what you are proposing --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which is a response
to the request to diminish as much as possible
the bulk of the -- it's there. Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Are we working with the
one that we received by the 22nd?
MRS. MOORE: The original?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, that is the proposal.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright.
I don't really have any questions about
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
the architecture. I do want to ask a question
about the construction. I believe one of the
frustrations that the neighbors in general
have with so much construction going on for so
long in the general area, at least the Hoveys
expressed concern that in order to build this
more people will be walking on their property
in order to get this built.
MRS. MOORE: Well, they -- let me just
clarify that that is not true.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. My question for
the record is can you assure us that in
building what you're proposing all
construction equipment and workers can remain
on the Manfredi's site?
MR. NOTARO: That's a question that you
have to direct to Mr. Manfredi. I don't have
jurisdiction over that.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Well, then
perhaps --
MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) on the side. I
thinks that the technical --
MR. NOTARO: Can they theoretically?
Yes. The only thing that's (inaudible} in the
back is literally two footings and it's all a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
bunch of steel supporting to minimize that.
You cannot get concrete equipment back there.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. It was something
that had been expressed.
MR. MANFREDI: Its definitely a tight fit
but --
MRS. MOORE: That would be -- what we're
asking for is no different then renovating the
existing house.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I understand that.
MRS. MOORE: For the record, as far as
the concern about trespassers or the
encroachments and so on, the house is where it
is and in any efforts to renovate it they're
all going to be constrained (inaudible) and
there just needs to be some supervision to
make
sure.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
Okay.
Okay, so I just want to
clarify a couple of things.
MR. NOTARO: Sure.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Could you just give me
exactly what the setbacks are going to be now?
MRS. MOORE: This is a second floor.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, what they are
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
going to be.
on one side,
MRS. MOORE:
MR. NOTARO:
site plans.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I
know what they are.
MRS. MOORE: Sure.
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2008
What are you asking for, 8 feet
right?
No, no.
It hasn't changed from the
know I just want to
The survey of the
east side, the survey shows at its closest
point 7.7, that's according to the (inaudible)
survey. On the west side is 3.8, that's where
the existing first story is presently.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
any closer?
MRS. MOORE: No,
MEMBER DINIZIO:
rear yard?
MRS. MOORE: The
MR. NOTARO:
issue in terms of
You don't propose going
no. Not at all.
Okay. The front and
front --
The rear yard is not an
setbacks.
MEMBER DIN!ZIO: I was just asking.
MR. NOTARO: Well it is going further
back, it's going back 10 feet. It's right on
the survey.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, thank you. Oh, okay the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
footprint is showing that.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What
the rear yard?
MRS. MOORE: We can get that
MEMBER DINIZIO: That's okay
MR. NOTARO: It's probably
we're (inaudible). I would say
maybe 65 or 70.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
MR. NOTARO: Somewhere
rear of the proposal.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
123
2008
is the setback from
for you.
(inaudible).
50 feet and
it's roughly
in there to the
Okay.
What are the setbacks of
the
proposed walls of the second floor?
MRS. MOORE: Yes, side yard it goes in by
MR. NOTARO: I think it's about three and
a half feet.
MRS. MOORE: Second floor, no. You have
the -- I mean those gables are going to be
more than two and a half?
MR. NOTARO: No.
MRS. MOORE: 18 inches?
MR. NOTARO: I'd say -- let's just say
for argument sake, three feet.
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MEMBER DINIZIO:
asking for more.
MR. NOTARO: Excuse me?
124
of Southold September 25, 2008
I think that you're
On the west side you've
no. I'm talking about
Oh.
MRS. MOORE:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
line, how far?
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MR. NOTARO: Well, let's say --
MEMBER WEISMAN: You're saying it's 3
foot.
MR. NOTARO: -- on the left side the
second floor would go back 10.7 feet.
MRS. MOORE: On the left side.
MEMBER DINIZIO: What's the left side,
that east or west?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The side closest to
the water.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The west?
MR. NOTARO: No, on the water.
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The second floor setbacks.
How far to the property
6.8.
6.8?
MEMBER DINIZIO:
got 3.8 feet.
MR. NOTARO: No,
the second floor.
MEMBER DINIZIO:
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MR. NOTARO: Yes, you're right. On the
other side you would add 3.8 --
MEMBER DINIZIO: I know but, you know,
can I ask the questions and get the answers?
I need on the east side you have an existing
setback of 7.7 feet.
on the second floor
construction?
MR. NOTARO: 10.7 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 10.7,
west side you have 3.8 feet.
What is
if you do
it going to be
the
okay. Now on the
What is it going
to be on the second floor after you do
construction?
MR. NOTARO: 6.8 feet.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 6.8 feet, okay.
I mean that's to your advantage that
you're reducing it and I have to write that
into the decision, you know.
MRS. MOORE: That's 22.3 and this is
26.3, so wouldn't that be (inaudible)? We're
double checking those numbers.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. That's okay.
MR. NOTARO: Yes, you're correct. It is
2 feet on both sides.
MRS. MOORE: 9.7 and 5.8.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, so that's 9.7 and
5.8, okay. What's the height to the ridge, do
you have any idea?
MRS. MOORE:
one.
MR. NOTARO:
That was in the previous
That's 31.
MEMBER DINIZIO: 31 to the ridge?
MR. NOTRRO: No, that's taken as a mean
average. Exactly, the property slopes
considerably.
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the average of the
slope not the average of the roof.
MR. NOTARO: We took it even lower. It's
almost near the bottom grade.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, let's go
on to the neighbors and then we'll get back to
yOU ·
State your name for the record, please.
MR. REEVE: Ron Reeve. It seems that all
these hearings start off with how long
somebody's been in the neighborhood, but I'm a
local person. I grew up on Harp's Farm up on
Sound Avenue and we've had the property up
here in the development we're talking about
for 40 years.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
Some things were said that we've built
big houses there. We have two houses, we're
fortunate to have two houses there. One we
just built about two years ago, that's 1700
square feet and the previous one we've just
added to that's now 1400 square feet. So we,
I think, we have built things in the same
scale that the Manfredi's have done. So I
don't want to be added to the large house
built syndrome that we're talking about here.
Second, there was a comment on the
hearing that I had some influence over the
positioning of {inaudible) house. I don't
know what relevance that would have, first of
all, but I didn't. I had nothing to do with
the placement of the (inaudible) house. So I
just wanted to have that for the record. I
would like to have had some say in it, but I
didn't, anyhow. There is also a statement
that the (inaudible) house has a flat roof.
Well, by code any roof that's 3 by 12 or above
is sloping. So I would suggest it's not a
flat roof on the (inaudible) house, but a
sloping roof. If you go 3-12 or 4-12 or what
have you. Roof lines are in the eye of
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
beholder, as we were just saying.
I guess the other point I'd make just
based on the testimony here, is I really
didn't mean to insult Mr. Notaro. I mean I
know he's a professional and, you know, I
didn't mean to insult him, but I came forward
with a drawing that's just a suggestion. In
fact, I think one of the things Frank said is
there's 150 ways you could do these things.
Well there are 150 ways you can do these
things so I don't think the design even done
by a professional is necessarily the only
answer that can be had. I think there are
lots of ways to design it and you've heard
that two of the neighbors, at least, are
concerned about the design.
First of all, I have absolutely no
problem with Mr. Manfredi increasing the space
in that house. I'd want him to have that
space. They've been good neighbors. Mrs.
Manfredi has been wonderful to us and lived
there for so long. They've got family that
have come back and so I agree with having the
space. I think the floor plan is a good floor
plan, it gives them the space they're looking
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ZBA Town
for.
them.
of Southold -
We're not trying to
129
September 25, 2008
take that away from
We're just trying to minimize the
effect or the appearance that that house has
on two of the neighbors, ourselves and the
Hoveys.
We know from the last hearing the Hoveys
are fairly upset about it and they expressed
some upset about the stuff that's been going
on there for some period of time and that's
not a concern to me, that's what happens. I
mean building happens.
It is difficult to get into their back
yard. In fact, the Manfredi's wanted to put a
little gazebo in the backyard of the house
that we're talking about right now, last year,
and they had no way to get it there. So we
let them come through our yard to place that
gazebo in their backyard. So I just want you
to know that we are trying to do things as a
neighborhood and respect their desires. I'm
just concerned and when I was at the last
hearing and I wish I had done my homework, I
apologize, there were a couple of things I
didn't know.
I didn't know about the Walz
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
interpretation of noncompliance and I do know
about the standards by which this Board makes
decisions and I wish I had I just didn't do my
homework, but looking at those two things I
looked at the Walz interpretation and it's
clearly based on volume and, as I said in my
letter, I think the volume in the current
design at the first hearing is that they cut
down the roof one foot. Okay, you can imagine
how much volume that takes out, and they cut
the corners off by four feet.
Well reducing volume in all noncomplying
areas, that's not much of a reduction in
volume. In fact, I don't know, it's probably
the equivalent of about 15 cubic feet that has
been removed in that design and I just think
there are other ways, not being a
professional, but having an engineering
degree, I think there are other ways that
could be approached to reduce the volume in
that attic and there are two things. That
affects our view of the property. It changes
and gives a very steep pitch in an area there
are no other steep pitch roofs and I think
that by reducing that height it really comes
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
into compliance with all of the other roofs in
that neighborhood, if you're looking for
symmetry in the neighborhood.
So I have a real problem that it can't be
done and it is a very large volume increase in
a noncompliant area and I think that's
something that the Board should consider. I
think that if I go through the determination
factors here: First take the five areas,
would an undesirable change be produced in the
neighborhood? Well, that's in the eye of the
beholder. I can tell you that two of the
neighbors think it is an undesirable change in
the neighborhood. That's -- how you make that
decision, I don't know, but to us it is an
undesirable change.
Whether the benefits sought by the
applicant can be achieved by some other method
feasible for an applicant to pursue other than
an area variance? Well, yes. I mean he could
cut down -- he could get everything he's asked
for with a reduction in volume of that
roofline. I know you're an architect also,
alright, but --
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's not the height, it'
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2008
ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
the side yard setback.
MR. REEVE: Pardon me?
MEMBER WEISMAN: It's the not the height,
it's the side yard setback.
MR. REEVE: I know that also. It's the
side yard where the nonconforming volume is
and that could be reduced is my only point, it
could be reduced. Maybe it's not desirable to
reduce it, but it could be reduced.
The third, whether the requested area
variance is substantial. During the initial
hearing it was almost no variance -- it was
only discussed in terms of square footage or
penetration into the side yards. There was no
discussion in the first hearing about the
volume and that's where I think there's a
substantial increase in the noncompliance.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just stop
you there. That is the reason why we sought a
motion to reconvene this hearing.
MR. REEVE: That's correct and I
appreciate that because that's the sole reason
for me to air my complaint, my feelings.
Fourth, whether the proposed variance
will have an adverse affect or impact on the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
physical environmental conditions (inaudible)?
Again, whether it's a physical impact or not
how can I say?
Whether the alleged difficulty was self-
created? Well, it's their design and that's
the design they like so I think it's self-
created. I do think there are, to come back
to Mr. Notaro's statement that there are 150
ways to do these things, but the idea right
now is there's only one way to do it. I don't
particularly, as an engineer, believe that. I
think there are other ways.
Finally, the Board of Appeals in granting
such area variances shall grant the minimum
variance that they deem is necessary and
adequate. That's what I'm questioning. I am
not objecting to the variance, okay. I am not
objecting to the square footage in the house
or the layout, floor plan. I just think it
could be done in a more conforming way and a
safer way because also in that plan is the
skirt roofs that are on there and now the side
yard that is 3.8 feet and again we talk about
professionals, we say okay let's assume it's 3
feet setback on there, let's just say it is.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
Well, when you're doing maintenance,
134
25, 2008
it's only
2 feet on each side, a very different story.
When you go up there 31 feet to that mid-
point, okay, and you have a skirt roof
sticking out and a (inaudible) 2 feet on the
side of Hovey, right, you have 3.8 feet take
away 2 feet, you've got 1.8 feet to get a
ladder 31 feet high. Now I don't think that's
possible to get up to maintain or do anything
on that house. I think that's a safety issue
and I think there's a responsibility on the
Board and on us as Town members not to take on
that liability or risk that could be
associated with someone really getting hurt
there. I think that's a fact that should be
considered because, again, that's in the
standards that are detriment to the health,
safety and welfare of the neighborhood or the
community.
So that's my concerns, reducing the
volume and safety. So I hope you would take
those things into consideration and I know the
house looks good, they've got the (inaudible)
slope up there, but it is affecting the
neighbors and it's causing a very large wall
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
right next to Hovey's (inaudible) where nobody
can get through unless they go on Hovey's
property. So I would just ask you to balance
it, take the neighbors' concerns into
consideration as well as the Manfredi's desire
and see if there isn't some way to come up
with a balance on that.
In closing I would just ask two other
things I think -- having been to the first
hearing (inaudible) was coming back
{inaudible). There's still question about the
height. If there is some way that you can
help us as the public have an opportunity to
view those changes when they come back instead
of just, you know, okay, you know, just accept
them. Do you understand what I'm saying? The
changes were made when a person puts in a
request and all this {inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ail we can do, sir,
is do what Mr. Notaro did and that is show to
you -- we can recess the hearing for five
minutes and show it to you.
MR. REEVE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is an office
staff, and I'm going to say this real quickly,
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
of one person and two part-time employees.
Okay? There is no physical way that we can
physically send all of this stuff out in
between these hearings. There are times when
we can call you to say we're receiving it, but
you were aware of the fact that he was
clipping those gable ends and that he was
going to resubmit. So you could have come in
to look at it.
statement.
MR. REEVE:
This is not a sarcastic
Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is strictly
pragmatic. Okay. For the demonstration of
what Mr. Notaro did today we did say that the
only thing we could do, and not to be
redundant, is to recess the hearing for five
minutes to allow you -- or ten minutes or
fifteen minutes, whatever it takes -- to allow
you to digest it. Okay?
MR. REEVE: Right.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And then the luxury
of you being an engineer, you can digest it
probably faster than a person that is a
layperson.
MR. REEVE: I'm (inaudible).
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's the case,
okay, and that's the best we can do under the
present auspices.
MR. REEVE: Okay. (Inaudible) back into
the file and if the public get a period of
time, maybe ten days, to come back and review
that file and then if they still have
questions to have some kind of way to reopen
the hearing. I just think it would be to the
benefit of the public --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
MR. REEVE: -- to do something like that.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
MR. REEVE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are there any more
comments before we close the hearing?
MRS. MOORE: Just a quick one. On the
fact that it's a wall that's going to be seen,
I'd ask you to just quick go back to the
drawing and see that it's a reverse peak so
that it is not straight wall, it is reverse
peak with windows and changes to volume. So
it is not -- it's an architectural treatment
to stop exactly what he's saying he doesn't
want to see. So I would just point out that
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
is exactly what has been proposed here. I
think the drawings speak for themselves and --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only two issues
that are open up -- that are still open and
that is the applicant is here and the
architect. There was never a question of Mr.
Notaro's ability. He comes before this Board
two or three times a month sometimes, but the
request from Mr. Reeve and I'll call him the
agent for the applicant because he has acted
in the agency relationship for Mr. Hovey and
that is this building can be built on Mr.
Manfredi's property. Is that correct?
MRS. MOORE: That's been established that
this building can be built straight on Mr.
Manfredi's property and it is -- there are
people that build in Manhattan with one-foot
between. There are certain, we don't happen
to have them here, but there is ample ground
for scaffolding because, again, the pitches at
the rear of the property are about 10 feet
higher than at the front of the property so
there is access everywhere here to enable
people to build this house. I think it's been
stated that building is feasible, it's not
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
that we have to use other people's land to
build this.
Would it be nice being cooperative if
neighbors would help each other as Mr. Reeve
pointed out to bring his gazebo in to the back
of the property? He was very courteous to
allow this to go on. If Mr. Hovey and Mrs.
Hovey don't want anybody walking on their
property, so be it. That's
People can go on Manfredi's
not a problem here.
not a problem.
property, that's
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The second one is
the same issue that was raised and the initial
reason that we're here apart from the side
yards and that is the Walz situation. That is
(inaudible) on the (inaudible) side and the
reason why the Board raised that issue of Walz
and that is, will this house be able to be
maintained on that side, okay? I gotta tell
you under a fire situation it's not going to
happen.
MRS. MOORE: Well, under a fire people
and firemen go anywhere and everywhere.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Under a person
situation, are you going to be able to
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
maintain this house on that side? That 3.8
side --
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- with a ladder?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: To the second story
MRS. MOORE: Keep in mind that the second
story has the roof that people could stand on
and then it's a 2-foot indentation before the
second floor goes up. So that does provide,
in a sense, a landing. There's also windows
that access that floor directly. So there --
again, I point out that scaffolding is always
available to any construction site. So you
don't have to rely on -- I see people using
ladders that are, you know, very steep pitch.
So that is not a problem here. There should
be [tape change]
The house is now where
proposed, no closer. It is,
in, so it is actually providing for some
volumes that people can access even more
comfortably. So it seems to me this has
been
the house is
in fact, stepped
all
considered by Mr. Notaro and Mr. Manfredi
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as far as making this a feasible design and
again pointing out that the volumes, keeping
the volumes proportional and I have -- I
suffer from the same problems I guess some of
you do in visualizing a two dimensional, but
you have to keep in mind, you know, it's those
peaks, those reverse peaks that really cut
volumes, cut the volumes so you don't have
that straight wall of siding that I think is
most offensive when you have narrow setbacks.
I think it's -- as the standard architectural
treatment, I don't want to speak for an expert
in architecture, but you know for yourself
that is the way you address the closeness at
the property line.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Unfortunately,
there was something else and the last thing is
I'm just going to say it to you, between now
and the 16th of October, if you find that that
is not the case, okay, would you please inform
the Board of that situation, okay? I mean
that you can't access the house on that 3.8
side with normal maintenance based on anything
you may do.
MRS. MOORE: Have you had any problems so
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
far accessing?
MR. MANFREDI: No.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me give you the
last one so I don't forget it and that is
there is no indication that this house will
ever change from an earth tone color, that it
will always remain somewhat of an earth tone
color. So it's even --
MR. NOTARO: We had said that --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, we did say
that, I just wanted to reiterate it. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. NOTARO: If I can say one thing? We
came to the Board for relief on certain
conditions. One was not the height of this
house, the proposed house. This house in its
present form could go up another 10 feet and
still meet the criteria of a 35-foot mean of
the tallest roof.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My comment on that
-- Can I just say one thing? Just remember
that this was Walz right here, okay?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I comment on that
please?
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead. Yeah.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
MEMBER DINIZIO: Mr. Notaro, this Board
made a decision okay that in my opinion wasn't
based on the code so I understand your
confusion because you can't find Walz in the
code, it's not there. Okay, it used to be
that your nonconformity you could build -- go
straight up 35 feet because it wasn't
increasing the degree of nonconformity.
MR. NOTARO: Right.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, now Walz and this
Board decided that that isn't so. Okay, so
now when I write decisions based on Walz I'm
going to tell you I agonize over them. I want
to deny each and every one of them. Why?
Because of what Mr. Reeve said, the last
thing, grant the minimum variance. We're
granting here probably in excess of 75%
variance, okay, and quite honestly that's not
what this Board was intended to do. We're
supposed to grant minimum variances. You
know, if someone has a hardship, you know,
because the house is 100 years old and they
want to put a porch on it and it happens to
put them five feet closer to the property line
the difference between moving the entire house
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
or building a porch is certainly a hardship
and minimally that's minimal.
Now the reason why I asked you about
concerning the front yard and rear yards,
which I didn't get an answer to, I did get the
backyard, is there any reason why you can't
put a master suite off the back of this
building?
MRS. MOORE: On this one-story house?
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. I mean you
wouldn't even need a variance.
MRS. MOORE: Yes, you would.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, give me a reason.
MRS. MOORE: On Walz you would absolutely
need a variance because (inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not even Walz,
it's the fact that one side of the house is
3.8 feet when it's supposed to be conforming
at 10. So you'd still need a variance.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
MRS. MOORE: Absolutely.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Unless you cut it
back to 10 feet and built a railroad car in
the back.
MRS. MOORE: Which would be a
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
(inaudible).
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
MRS. MOORE:
MR. NOTARO:
misunderstanding,
So you can't --
There may have been
I'm just (inaudible)
some
ignorance about the Walz project. I didn't
design it, I've never seen it, so I'm
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MEMBER DINIZIO:
I'm sure you're familiar with the code.
understand --
MR. NOTARO: I'm saying I have no idea on
that.
again,
for on
It's not in the code and
So I
I just wanted to clear for the record,
it's not a height variance we're going
this house.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But no, you're going for
a variance against an interpretation that this
Board did. So it hasn't got a thing to do
with height, sir, it has to do with volume and
quite honestly in my way of thinking only
because Walz was made, only because it's made
part of a law, that we're granting when we
grant the Walz variance a huge variance. I
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listening about it, but I have no other
knowledge about that. That's all I was saying
about that.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
mean it makes for us granting variances
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2008
on a
very inconsistent basis, very inconsistent.
MRS. MOORE: Just as a matter of law, I
would just actually not agree with you with
that because what you are dealing with is a
nonconforming structure with nonconforming
setbacks. The code specifically allows people
to renovate, expand preexisting nonconforming
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree.
MRS. MOORE: The Walz keeps it within
context of reasonableness.
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it didn't -- our
code is not a reasonable. Our code is you
read a setback, a setback is a setback.
MRS. MOORE: No, actually if I read the
code it is permitted as a right to go straight
up. That's what the code specifically says.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you 100%.
MRS. MOORE: Walz made an interpretation
of that which says no, we don't want to allow
you to go straight up. We are going to look
at that extra space that you build on a
nonconforming structure to make sure that it's
proportional to the character of the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
community. So you look at the standards if
you're asking for something that is within
character, that's why I pointed out that Mr.
Manfredi has been here, his family extends to
the '50s because they are the character. We
count heads and we've got four people that are
in favor of this project versus the two that
are opposed. Let's do a majority vote. So it
is not the -- that is a ridiculous statement
in a sense because you say well two people in
this neighborhood are opposed. Yes, but is
the opposition reasonable given the proposal
that's before you.
If what you're telling me is that this
variance, any second floor, results in a
significant variance. Well, I would say to
you if you're looking at it straight as what
are the setbacks under the current code for a
nonconforming lot. You have to look at where
the existing house is. Even if this house
were demolished, you would have to grant
reasonable variances cause you can't put a
house that's only 20 -- 10 feet in width.
That's not a reasonable size house.
So we are starting with, yes, the
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ZBA Town of Southold - September
setbacks on the side is tight and
nonconforming, but that is why we have built
it in, that's why we're, you know, making it
short. Ail the testimony that was just
discussed, I don't want to rehash everything.
So I appreciate your very conservative reading
of Walz, but that's actually interpretation of
what the code actually does not say.
MEMBER DINIZIO: My point exactly. Okay?
MRS. MOORE: But that's inaudible)
problem.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Not obviously not, if
you're not willing to address it and we can go
on and on and on with this line and poor Mr.
Reeves has to assume that what is in the code
is in the code and poor Mr. Notaro doesn't --
MRS. MOORE: We have to design under the
scheme of what we have there.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree that we can
grant variances, but honestly when we did Walz
we threw all that out the window.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you have, and
I'm going to state this for the last time, if
you have a 2.8 foot side yard --
MRS. MOORE: Right.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- and you're
bringing that in two feet on the second floor
MRS. MOORE: Yes, (inaudible) --
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- you are making
it -- you're conforming.
MRS. MOORE: -- conforming. Exactly.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't care how
you read it. I don't care which way you dice
it. The second floor is more conforming.
MRS. MOORE: Correct. So it's not --
MEMBER DINIZIO: But it's still
nonconforming.
MRS. MOORE:
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
But that's an interpretation
You are conforming
MEMBER DINIZIO: (Inaudible) says make it
more conforming, the code says if it's not
conforming you can't do anything with it.
MRS. MOORE: No, no. Gerry's right. If
you --
MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. (Inaudible)
variance (inaudible) --
MRS. MOORE: No, no.
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25,
MEMBER DINIZIO: -- in the attic
interpretation, but quite honestly, you know,
someone has to do something about this. I'm
willing to put my foot down any time this
Board will move to.
MRS. MOORE: You'd be hurting a lot of
people.
MEMBER DINIZIO: I agree with you 100%.
MRS. MOORE: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm going to tell
you that I did have a discussion with a Town
Board member the other day and they have
informed me that they will be working on it.
MRS. MOORE: Well, that is (inaudible) --
MEMBER DINIZIO: Poor Mr. Reeve could
read the code and (inaudible).
MRS. MOORE: Poor Mr. Manfredi is
listening to all of this and probably
(inaudible) cause all he wanted was two little
bedrooms on the second floor.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Reeve did you
want to say something?
MR. REEVE: I'm going to say again, I
think the main thing here is minimum variance
necessary. I think that's a reasonable
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Southold - September 25,
I think that's important
151
2008
ZBA Town of
compromise.
(inaudible) aesthetics
have a
that I
Again,
(inaudible) and you
(inaudible) and that's the question
come back to of variance and size.
I have no objection to Mr. Manfredi
having the space (inaudible) fine if it's
necessary (inaudible) setback (inaudible).
[He's not at the microphone.]
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
Hearing no further comment I'll make a
motion closing the hearing reserving the
decision.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Does anybody else have
anything else to say?
MRS. MOORE: You don't want to hear any
more. This has been beaten to death.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie will you
second?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
(See Minutes for
Resolution.)
(OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - September 25, 2008
I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings were
prepared using four-track electronic transcription
and is a true and accurate record of the
equipment
Hearings.
Signature
Denise G~sows ki
Agency Name:
Address of Agency:
Pugliese's Court Reporting
and Transcription Service
4 Saddlebrook Lane
Manorville, New York 11949
Date:
October 5, 2008
OCT I 6 2008
E3OARD OF APPEALS,
Pugliese Court Reporting and Transcription Service
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