HomeMy WebLinkAboutTR-06/18/2008James F. King, President
Jill M. Doherty, Vice~President
Peggy A. Dickerson
Dave Bergen
- Bob Ghosio, Jr.
Town H~I
53095Route 25
P.O. Box 1179
Southold, NewYork 11971-0959
Telephone(631) 765-1892
Fax(631) 765-6641
BOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
Minutes
Wednesday, June 18, 2008
6:00 PM
RECI~IVED
F;I~
8EP 1 8 2008
Southoh? To~n Clerk
Present were: James King, President
Jill Doherty, Vice President
Peggy Dickerson, Trustee
Dave Bergen, Trustee
Bob Ghosio, Trustee
Lori Hulse, Town Attorney
Lauren Standish, Secretarial Assistant
CALL MEETING TO ORDER
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
NEXT FIELD INSPECTION: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 at 8:00 AM
NEXT TRUSTEE MEETING: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 at 6:00 PM
WORKSESSION: 5:30 PM Southold.
APPROVE MINUTES: Approve Minutes of March 19, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: Good evening, everyone. For those of you who don'1
know me, I'm Jim King. I have the honor of being chairman of this
Board. I would like to introduce the rest of the folks here. To
my far left is Trustee Dave Bergen; next to Dave is Peggy
Dickerson; my co-chair, Jill Doherty; Lauren Standish is to my
right, is our office manager and; Bob Ghosio is the fifth Trustee.
And down in the end is Lori Hulse, the Assistant Town Attorney.
She is our legal advisor for tonight. Wayne Galante records
everything, so if you do have comments, please come up to the
microphone and identify yourself so he can get it on the record.
Do you want to set the field inspection for July 16, at eight
o'clock in the morning?
Board of Trustees 2 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: So moved.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: The next regular meeting will be the 23rd of July at
6:00 with a work session at 5:30.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So moved.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: I didn't have a chance to read the minutes of March
yet. Did anybody else?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I did. Lauren, the only thing I found is with
Beixedon, he has "Southold Environmental." It should be "Suffolk
Environmental."
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I read the March minutes and I had E-mailed Wayne
some minor changes to them. So I was fine with them.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll make a motion to approve the March minutes.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Jim, the April minutes, I know we already received
by E-maih I don't know if people had a chance to read them yet,
but I already read them and sent my comments to Wayne on the April
minutes. So I don't know if anybody else has.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I read the April minutes and I had one or two
changes.
TRUSTEE KING: I haven't seen them.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: We'll wait on the April minutes.
I. MONTHLY REPORT:
TRUSTEE KING: The Trustees Monthly report for May, 2008. A check in
the amount of $7,506.30 was forwarded to the Supervisor's office
for the General Fund.
II. PUBLIC NOTICES:
TRUSTEE KING: Public notices are posted on the Town Clerk's
bulletin board for review.
III. STATE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY REVIEWS:
TRUSTEE KING: We have a number of state environmental quality
reviews.
Resolved that the Board of Trustees of the Town of Southold
hereby finds that the following applications more fully described
in Section VII Public Hearings section of the Trustee agenda dated
Wednesday, June 18, 2008, are classified as Type II Actions
pursuant to SEQRA rules and regulations and are not subject to
further review under SEQRA.
They read as follows:
Board of Trustees 3 June 18, 2008
Richard Johnson & Pamela Maino - SCTM#59-6-9
Kevin Gallagher - SCTM#70-10-62.1
Susan Magrino Dunning - SCTM#17-1-2.1
Arnold Blair - SCTM#111-10-15
Michael & Susan Jeffries - SCTM#1-2-11
Thomas & Andrew Zoitas - SCTM#-40-1-7
2000 Broadwaters LLC - SCTM#104-9-12
George Baldwin - SCTM#57-2-21
Shui Ching Chen- SCTM#59-6-5.1
Joseph & June lavarone - SCTM#86-6-4
Anne Renganeschi - SCTM#107-7-4
lan & Amanda Morris - SCTM#22-2-4
Anthony & Giustina lenna - SCTM#78-2-3
Joann Walker - SCTM~66-1-33
Strong's Marina, Inc. - SCTM#122-9-6.2
Bayview Pacific Ltd. c/o Patrick McCarthy - SCTM#77-3-1
Bruno Frankola - SCTM#71-1-19
Do I have a motion on the resolution on those?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: So moved.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
POSTPONEMENTS:
TRUSTEE KING: We have some postponements. I'll go through them so
nobody is sitting here waiting for something to come up that
doesn't come up.
Page four, number six, Proper-T Permit Services on behalf of DON
JAYAMAHA requests an Amendment to Permit #6437 to construct a fixed
open walkway 4x70' with decking a minimum of 3.5 feet above
vegetated grade, hinged ramp 3x20' and floating dock 6x20', and
install two six-inch diameter (nominal) piles to secure the
floating dock. Located: 243 Maiden Lane, Mattituck, has been
postponed.
Page seven, number 14, Patricia Moore on behalf of THOMAS &
ANDREW ZOITAS requests a Wetland Permit to install an inground
swimming pool, patio and landscaping within 100 feet from the top
of the bluff, retain a 30 foot non-turf buffer and construct beach
access stairs. Located: 6255 North Road, Greenport, has been
postponed.
And number 17, Docko Inc., on behalf of ROBERT MEYER requests
a Wetland Permit and Coastal Erosion Permit to reconstruct 138
linear feet of 5.7' wide fixed wood pile and timber pier including
ladders and four braced tie-off piles waterward of the high tide
line. Located: Crescent Avenue, Fishers Island, has been postponed.
Board of Trustees 4 June 18, 2008
Number 18, Ray Nemschick on behalf of STEIN FAMILY RESIDENCE
TRUST requests a Wetland Permit to construct a one-story addition
to the existing single-family dwelling, new front porch and a
half-story addition with utility (1) toilet, (1) sink to existing one-story
garage. Located: 2535 Cedar Lane, East Marion, has been postponed.
And number 19, JMO Environmental on behalf of FISHERS ISLAND FERRY
DISTRICT requests a Wetland Permit to maintenance dredge an
80'x480' channel to -20 ALW. The resultant spoil (7,800 cubic
yards of sand and cobble) will be disposed of at an island site
upland disposal site. Located: Foot of Fox Lane, Fishers Island,
has been postponed.
IV RESOLUTIONS-ADMINISTRATIVE PERMITS:
TRUSTEE KING: We'll go to resolutions and administrative permits.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number one is CHARLES LUYSTER requests an
Administrative Permit to construct an 8x12' storage shed. Located:
1670 Leeton Drive, Southold.
This was found exempt under the LWRP. I went out and looked at
this. There was no problem with this. It was about 72 feet from
the top of the bulkhead and everything looked fine. So unless
there is any comments from the Board, I would like to make a motion
to approve this one.
TRUSTEE KING: Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number two, THOMAS D. PROKOP requests an
Administrative Permit to remove existing dead junipers and rotted
wooden walkway, replace wooden walkway in different location,
replant area with natural grasses and mulch. Located: 2245 Little
Peconic Bay Lane, Southold.
I went out and looked at this. He had to remove a concrete
patio as per a DEC issue, and I had no problem with all the dead
vegetation coming out. I met with him out there. The only thing I
want to say is the walkway that he's proposed to come out here, he
didn't give a width and I would like to, and I proposed to him a
three-foot width walkway to him. He was fine with that. With that
stipulation the walkway being three-feet wide, I would like to make
a motion to approve this one.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Number three, GUSTAVE J. WADE requests an
Administrative Permit to remove approximately 48 Locust trees,
approximately 150 Poison Ivy vines and place three inches of natural wood
chips on the surface. Located: 1024 East Road, Cutchogue.
We all looked at this and we got in a removal plan. I think
there was a question as to the number of Locusts. The Poison Ivy
is requesting to be removed around his dock so family members can
Board of Trustees 5 June 18, 2008
get down safely to the dock area but I think there is a question on
the Locust trees. You wanted to have them marked in some way, Jim?
TRUSTEE KING: They were.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: But you had a comment Monday night you wanted
some restrictions.
TRUSTEE KING: Just the Locust trees should be removed. There are
some Cedars that should not be touched.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: And the wild rose bush you had marked.
Is this your handwriting?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No, just this little thing here is mine.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: There should be field notes on it.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I didn't have a field notes sheet.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Since this is in front of me, I'll take this
opportunity to make a point that this area has quite a bit of
history to it. I believe it originally, going way, way back in
history, was actually part of the marshland in this area. Over the
years it was filled in with dredge spoil and the entire area has
become sort of a dune/grassy area. My concern with removing so
many of these Locust trees is I have been taking kids out here for
the last twenty years and this entire area has sort of created its
own habitat. Again, I have no problem with the dock or clearing a
walkway to the dock area but I'm not inclined to approve removal of
all the Locust trees. I think it's a habitat that's been
established for a good fifteen, twenty years, and I would make a
motion to deny this if it's going to be cutting of the Locusts.
Just the poison ivy. So I'll make that motion.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Can we have discussion first?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: Do we have a second?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I'll second.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I believe this is all on this gentleman's private
property and it is an upland area. It's not a public park. There
is a public, I don't know if it's property owners or association
beach next to it. And my understanding is that part is not going
to be touched.
The Locusts will take over that property and will inundate
that property, making it unusable, and I feel the gentleman should
have the right to remove the Locusts. I agree totally with the
other Trustees out there when we were out for our field inspection,
the other vegetation should remain, but the Locusts and poison ivy,
of course, I feel should be able to come out of there. So myself,
I feel that he should be able to take the Locusts down he had
marked down there.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: In any other application, anything one-hundred
feet from the wetlands we would discourage people from clearing, so
in essence he's asking to clear our jurisdictional area. I see the
purpose of the poison ivy. I don't see the purpose of the
Locusts. And the Locusts, again, from the pictures we have here,
and anybody that has been down there, it's just a very vegetated
area and, again, any other applicant that would come in, we
normally would create this as a buffer or keep it non-disturbance.
Board of Trustees 6 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I was thinking, the Locusts, he wants an area here
he could put woodchips and have as a sitting area. I think that's
why he wanted to clear the Locusts in that area. It was not the
entire piece of property, it was just in that area. That's why we
went down there, and he had everything marked. So he didn't have
all the Locusts marked on the preperty, just in the sitting area
that he wants.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Are you talking these Locusts marked here?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Have you had the opportunity to go down there since
last week, Peggy?.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'm looking at a map where he marked the
Locusts.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: And we all agreed when the map came out that was
way too many Locusts. That's why when we went on field inspection
he put ribbons on the ones he wanted out of there. So it's all
that I thought we were considering for appreval tonight was just
removing the ones with the ribbons on them. It's not the entire
piece of preperty. It's not clear cutting the preperty.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Just in this area here where the posts are.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: So it's not 48 Locusts then?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: That's what the resolution says.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Because that's what he originally applied for.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Do we have a number or do we just have blue
ribbons?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We didn't count how many he had marked.
TRUSTEE KING: I believe the gentleman is here, if you want to ask
him any questions.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Did you want to take down all the Locusts on the
whole preperty or just the sitting area?
MR. WADE: Just the ones marked with the blue tapes. Some of them
are as thick as my finger.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: If you could come up to the mic and intreduce
yourself.
MR. WADE: Good evening, Board members. Yes, the day I met with you
folks down there I explained to you what area that I wanted to
clean. Then I taped them with blue tapes last Wednesday, on your
inspection day. Some of them are the thickness of my finger. Some
of them, the thickness of my thumb. They are not indigenous to
that property, ma'am. I beg to differ with you. When I bought
that property back thirty years ago there was nothing on that
property.
Locusts spread with rhizomes under the greund. This is
totally a weed tree. You would not want it in your backyard nor
would I want it in my backyard. Just on my neglect, okay, I should
have gone down there and pulled them out as they grew. I mean what
I'm asking for here, okay, is a simple thing, to remove the Locusts
that have inhabited my preperty. I have no intention of going near
the water's edge or any other part of the property. I would like
to re-create the use of my property, plain and simple.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: How do you propose to remove the Locusts; cut them
Board of Trustees 7 June 18, 2008
to grade?
MR. WADE: No, you have to take them out by the roots, Jill,
otherwise they continue to spread. Each one of these the Locusts,
if it's the size of my thumb, it has ten or twelve feet roots. If it's the
inch-and-a-half, some of these roots will go 50 feet. I want to take them
out so I can get them out of the ground and put
the mulch on top so I could have an area to use. Very simply stated.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Lauren, I'm just noticing there was an E-mail
here from the Group for Cutchogue.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: If you could read that into the record.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Which I think is very relevant. With respect to
the application of Mr. Wade, I believe there are several issues
which should be resolved before this application is calendared for
a meeting. Both on the application and the environmental
assessment form the applicant misrepresents the location of the
property. The property is not at the eastern terminus of East
Road. There are two reasons why the applicant's property is an
environmentally sensitive land unsuitable for any development. It
is a beach, that there is no road access. I believe this was
established when the former owner was in court in the '60s and '80s
when he applied for a Trustee permit to build a house on the
property. There was said to be a DEC permit to the Southold Town
Board in granting a building permit, any hardship relating to the
current state of the property is self inflicted. The ton of fill
which Wade dumped on the beach have already caused serious,
negative environmental impacts both on the beach and in the creek.
If not for the dirt he dumped there, there would be no thorny
bushes or Poison Ivy. The property is not in residential use, the
land use in the vicinity of the property, the project is not
residential and is open space and recreational. I believe the
property is within DEC jurisdiction and any change in the character
of the land use would require a DEC permit.
If beaches in Southold Town are permitted to be covered with
wood chips, that would certainly be a dramatic change for or
esthetic resources, community and neighborhood character. The
property is landscaped. It will no longer be open space but
residential space. Next there will be lawn mowers and leaf
blowers, et cetera. The dock was permitted so the property owner
could not claim that Southold Town regulated against all use of the
property. Such use should not be expanded.
The applicant's property is a key location in relation to the
significant coastal fish and wildlife habitat of Cutchogue Harbor
and creeks. Hay Water Cove area including East Creek, Mud Creek
and Broadway Cove consist of approximately 190 acres of salt marsh
islands, mud flats, open waters and tidal creeks. It is connected
by strong daily tides to the shallow open water area of Cutchogue
Harbor of approximately 205 acres and also in the Horseshoe
Cove-Meadow Beach area, an approximately 25 acre area including a
15-acre wetland preserve owned by the Nature Conservancy.
To claim, as the applicant does, that there will be no
controversy as to potential adverse impact is absurd. If Wade
Board of Trustees 8 June 18, 2008
wants to restore the beach by removing the dirt and cleaning up the
sand, it should be permitted. To permit him to further destroy the
valuable natural character of this property would be a terrible
mistake. Thank you for your courtesy and consideration.
Signed, the Secretary of Cutchogue Group.
MR. WADE: Can I just make a statement. I don't know what they are
talking about as far as disturbing the beach. I have no intention
of disturbing the beach, number one. And number two, my beach is
not their beach. And I have no intention of disturbing their
beach. They walk across my property to get to their beach, but
that's okay. Needless to say, I mean this is an erroneous
statement that they have made here about me disturbing the beach.
I have no intention of disturbing any beach. I don't have a beach
on my side. They have a beach on their side. My property is
separated from their property. One thing has nothing to do with
the other, Mrs. Dickerson. So I don't understand what this is all
about. I mean this is just a smoke screen to throw up some kind of
ridiculous statement here against my property and against my
rights. I have rights just like any other land owner in the State
of New York and in the Town of Southold. I pay taxes on this
property. I have rights to use it. I'm not asking them for their
beach rights and they should not have rights to use my property
either. But they do.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: From this E-mail, aside from this that needed to
be read into the record, I'll say that my motion stands, and in
order for this to pass it needs to be passed by the full Board. So
my motion stands. Mr. Ghosio seconds it, and now the other Board
members can make their decision.
TRUSTEE KING: So the motion is to deny. That's my understanding.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: And it was seconded.
TRUSTEE GHO$10: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Bob, do you second the motion?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes, I did.
TRUSTEE KING: Any other comments?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: How many trees in total are you going to take out
MR. WADE: I think there is 42 or 46 I mentioned when we met on the
property. I think it's the same. If you count them up. Some of
these things are the size of my finger. If you don't want to count
them, it's 26. The other 20 that have popped up since we been
there, it's 46 pieces. It's like they grow overnight. Tomorrow
there will be 56 pieces there. It's the way Locusts grow.
TRUSTEE KING: Mr. Wade, what kind of equipment are you going to use
to pull them out?
MR. WADE: A rubber tire machine that has a little backhoe
attachment on it. Put a chain around the root and pick it up out
of the ground. We are not moving any other, we are not disturbing,
it's not an earth moving or earth shattering experience. Pulling
these weed trees out is like pulling, you know.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: If it was to be done under that method, would there
be a bond posted to use the road in there?
Board of Trustees 9 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: That's what I was going to suggest, yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'm asking, Lori.
MS. HULSE: There has to be.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I wanted to make sure the applicant was aware of
that.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: What you normally do is see Peter Harris at
Highway and do a bond with him.
MR. WADE: Surely. I don't have a problem with that at all. I
don't have a problem with anybody coming down there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: They still do it this way, I think you write a
check and he holds it and after he inspects it and it's fine, he
gives you the check back.
MR, WADE: Surely. I have no problem with that.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's the way they used to do it.
MR. WADE: Okay.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You'll have to talk to Peter Harris about it.
MR. WADE: This machine, Jim, is about 48 inches wide on rubber
treks. It's called a mini excavator. It has rubber treks on it. It
doesn't even leave a footprint. It could run over my foot and it
wouldn't hurt me.
TRUSTEE KING: There is a motion to deny.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And a second.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We'll do a roll.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Unless there is any further discussion.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I understand your reasoning and I understand
your rights to your property, but I'm saying any other property we
would look at, if someone was asking to remove this much
vegetation, I know in the past we have considered our jurisdiction
and within our jurisdiction we have required buffers and for people
not to remove this type of vegetation, so. So just do a roll call.
TRUSTEE KING: So there will be a roll call vote on this. All in
favor of the motion to deny?. There is a motion to deny.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: No.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Aye.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll vote no.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Aye.
TRUSTEE KING: So three nays and two ayes.
TRUSTEE KING: The motion failed. There was a motion to deny and it
failed. Anybody else want to make a motion?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll make a motion to approve the application of
Gus Wade to remove approximately 48 Locust trees and approximately
150 Poison Ivy vines and place three inches of natural wood chips
on the surface as marked in the area he has on his survey and not
to remove any Cedars and not to remove any of the wild rose
bushes.
MR. WADE: Rosa rugosa. I planted them there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: There is another one. There was a rosa rugosa and
there was another wild rose. There is no reason to take that out.
But you had that marked.
MR. WADE: Rosa multi-flora. Okay.
Board of Trustees 10 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So just the Locusts and Poison Ivy and the wood
chips. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE KING: Where are the wood chips going?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Do you have an approximate size of the area?
MR. WADE: I would say it's probably a circle of about thirty feet,
Jill, or thereabouts.
TRUSTEE KING: Mostly right where the piles are?
MR. WADE: Correct. That's the only place the Locusts grew.
TRUSTEE KING: The only place to put wood chips is in that pile area.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Do we want to include a pathway to that area, in
other words, the area where the pilings are plus a pathway to that
area; is there a need for wood chips on that or not a need?
MR. WADE: I would like to keep the growth down with the wood chips,
which is the simplest thing. It's natural. It's just, you know.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'm just trying to maker sure we are very clear on
the area we are talking about the wood chips.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: This includes a clearing of the path to the dock.
MR. WADE: That's where the Poison Ivy is.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Do you anticipate putting wood chips down on that
path to the dock?
MR. WADE: Just a couple of feet wide to get to the dock, so we
could walk on top of the wood chips.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So what Dave is saying is we should include the
path.
TRUSTEE KING: You don't want that to get too close to the dock.
MR. WADE: By the way my, property has never been underwater since
owned it, so it's not a fear of having that property flood. The
property is 8.6 feet above average sea level.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I would say maybe keep the wood chips in the
30-foot radius area and not have wood chips down to the dock,
because as you walk, they go through. So just keep it in that area.
MR. WADE: Surely.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Again, my motion is to clear the Poison Ivy, the
Locusts, and put wood chips down in the 30-foot radius as marked on
the survey and not clear any other plants; the rosa rugosa, the
Cedars, rosa altema whatever. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: All in favor?
TRUSTEE KING: Condition it so there is a bond posted.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll add that. I'll add that.
TRUSTEE KING: I would also like the office to be notified when you
start the work so somebody can come down and make sure everything ~s
done properly. Because there will be a lot of watch dogs.
MR. WADE: Jim, I owned this property for 30 years.
TRUSTEE KING: I want somebody to be there. I want to make sure this
is done very selectively and that's where I'm coming from on this.
MR. WADE: I agree wholeheartedly.
TRUSTEE KING: Do we have a second?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes. We do. Roll call vote.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Can I make a comment?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes.
Board of Trustees 11 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I want you to know, I do agree it's your property.
You should be able to do what you want. The reason I seconded
Trustee Dickerson's motion was because I did feel, like she said,
there is a certain problem in consistency sometimes, and we have
asked people to give us more buffers. I agree that the Poison Ivy
needs to be removed and I also agree to that an awful lot of those
Locusts need to be pulled out. Whether it's 48 or not, I don't
know. But in an effort to be consistent, I wanted to hear a
discussion on it. That's my only problem.
TRUSTEE KING: Roll vote.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I just want to add a comment. With regard to the
consistency. This is a unique piece of property and to me it's not
exactly the same as clearing a bank or other types of properties,
that's why I feel that I made the motion I made.
TRUSTEE KING: Trustee Bergen?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Aye
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Nay
TRUSTEE KING: Trustee Doherty?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Aye.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll vote aye.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Aye.
MR. WADE: I would like to thank you Board members and I'll comply
with your requests on anything you have to say.
TRUSTEE KING: Thank you.
MR. WADE: Good evening.
TRUSTEE KING: We can do four and five together. Numbers four and
five, MICHAEL CARBONE requests an Administrative Permit to remove
all stumps and plant Leyland Cypress trees along the seaward side
of the water main easement. Located: 1330 North Bayview Road,
Southold, and also 1380 Bayview Road, Southold.
I believe there is a violation. Is there a violation, Lori,
on this?
MS. HULSE: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: We all went out and looked at it. I think the
Board's feeling is there is to be no stump removal, just leave it
alone. As far as the plantings --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: They can grind the stumps and just keep them
there.
TRUSTEE KING: The stumps are down to ground level now. If they
want to grind them further, they can. There is to be no
disturbance tearing those stumps up. There is no need for it. As
far as the trees, I'm not familiar with this type of tree.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Isn't it a taller tree, the Cypress tree?
TRUSTEE KING: Do you know what they look like, Bob? The Leyland
Cypress?
TRUSTEE GHOSiO: Tall and conical. It's a conifer. They get tall.
TRUSTEE KING: I think there was some thought that since this has
all been cleared he really opened up kind of a nice vista to look
down at the creek and if you plant something like a huge screening,
there it goes again. I don't know.
Board of Trustees 12 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Scott's Hilary's comments were they are kind of
a more native species.
TRUSTEE KING: Because this was all treed before, this whole corner,
but they were big trees. If you look at some of these stumps, they
were, you know, six, eight, ten inches. There was no vista
before. I don't have a huge problem with it. But there is no need
to tear all those stumps up.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Was there a fence, Jim?
TRUSTEE KING: That's right. There's a fence right along the
wetlands that needs to be removed. That's against the code.
So I'll make a motion to approve this with the stipulation
that the stumps are not to be removed. They can be ground down
flush. And the goose fence is to be removed out of the wetland area.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number six, Frank Uellendahl, Architect, on behalf
of EDWARD & CATHERINE FORTE requests an Administrative Permit to
extend the existing structure landward. Located: 710 Truman's Path,
East Marion.
I went out and looked at this. The LWRP finds this exempt.
All the proposed work is landward of the existing house and on the
survey the architect measured the Trustee line as the water line
and when I went out there, there is a wood retaining wall on the
bank going down into Marion Lake, and I would take that wood
retaining wall top of the bluff line and measure it from there,
because it is pretty steep there. So the proposed construction is
in our jurisdiction.
So, as you said, it's all landward of the existing house and
the front of the water side of the house is all, it's not yard,
it's all planted and very well established.
So I'll make a motion to approve the administrative permit to
extend landward subject to extension to be put on the survey so we
have a little bit better, because we just have a drawing, then we
have the survey. If we could have this put on the survey, and
drywells, leaders and gutters added to the whole entire house. Do
I have a second?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: The next two, Young & Young on behalf of SARGON
VINEYARDS, requesting an Administrative Permit to install a deer
fence along the northern portion of the property. Located: 500
Soundview Drive, Orient; and
Young & Young on behalf of VALLO BENJAMIN requesting an
Administrative Permit for the as-built deer fence along the
northern portion of the property. Located: 24315 Rt. 25, Orient.
At this time if we consider approving these we would be
approving -- this would be an approval against the building code
Board of Trustees 13 June 18, 2008
and the zoning board, so I suggest that we table this and have them
go to the zoning board first and see what they are going to
appreve. That way they are not coming back and forth.
So I would make a motion to table this Sargon Vineyards and
Vallo Benjamin until they get zoning board appreval.
TRUSTEE KING: Second?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I would like to make a comment on that. What you
are doing, you said we don't want to send people back and forth.
But we are sending people back and forth. They are starting with
the Trustees, the Trustees are sending them to the zoning board and
the zoning board is going to do their action and send them back to
the Trustees. If we are going to table it I want to table it under
the reason we don't want to send people back and forth. Because we
are doing that. Myself, personally, I have no preblem preceeding
with this and let them go to the zoning board and if the zoning
board appreves it, fine, if they disappreve it, they have to come
back again.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: The first reason is we are approving something
that is against the building code. That's the main reason I want
to table it.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So I have a second.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: There was a vote made and it carried.
TRUSTEE KING: It's tabled for the zoning board.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number nine, JMO Envirenmental Consulting on
behalf of MARIE CLARKE ARTURI & EMANUEL ARTURI requests an
Administrative Permit to remove and replace existing cedar siding
on an existing 88 square foot bath house, to reconstruct in place
an existing 4'3"x3' frame stair utilizing ACQ stringers and timber
trek decking, to remove existing 88 square feet upper CCA deck and
reconstruct existing lower CCA decks (124sf and 175sf) utilizing
timber trek decking, framing to remain, to remove and replace two
windows and one door and for the existing split-rail fence along
both property lines. Located: 550 Peconic Bay Blvd., Laurel.
I went out and looked at this and the builder happened to be
out there and he started the work not knowing the regulations. I
kind of filled him in on the regulations of the Trustees. And
basically part of what he's doing, the replacing the windows and
shingles, are actually exempt from our new code. So that's what
he's doing there. The decking, he's going to be replacing with
Timber Tek and I asked him to make sure it's spaced currently
underneath the decking and what -- I wouldn't even call it a
cabana. It's more of a shed. It's very small. It's all sand
underneath there. There is a shower inside there and the water
goes right down into the sand. You could tell it's been there for
a while and the only condition I would put on there is if there no
further water use expansion on this, no toilet, no sink or
anything; the showers, it's not even enclosed. It's just a shower
head coming out of the wall, to rinse off. And so I don't know if
any Board members have any questions on that.
Board of Trustees 14 June 18, 2008
I did talk to Mr. Just about this because I was going to
impose a ten foot non-turf buffer along the whole property but he
informed me the applicant is going to be coming in to replace the
bulkhead soon, so at that time we can address the non-turf buffer.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Jill, I was going to mention since the 275
revision does exclude or exempt the removal or replacement of cedar
siding, should that come out of the permit?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I kind of like to keep it in just because this was
not a permitted structure before, so this kind of permits the
structure. Does that make any sense or should we just --
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: It's asking to remove or replace cedar siding.
Or change the wording to permitting an existing bath house. It
seems silly to have it in there if it's not permitted.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's a permit for --
TRUSTEE KING: Is this seaward off the bulkhead?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes, it is, approximately how many feet, Glenn
MR. JUST: Glenn Just, JMO Environmental Consulting, as agent for
the applicant.
It's got to be 15 feet. I would say it's about eight feet
landward of the bulkhead and 20 feet landward of apparent high
water. And I just want to point out it's a cold water shower.
Very rudimentary. It's not heated or anything like that at all.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: They won't be in there long?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You could tell it's all been existing for quite a
while.
TRUSTEE KING: I think I been there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It is the same owner as the other one we went to
further down Peconic Lane -- not that that makes a difference --
here you could see it's the decking and the bath house is back
here. That's it. It's really not that big. That's the size of it.
TRUSTEE KING: It's all existing.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes, you could see it's been there for a long
time. So I'll make a motion to approve an administrative permit
for an existing 88 square foot bath house to reconstruct inplace
existing - I won't read the whole thing -- as applied as per the
rest of it, with the condition that no further water expansion use
inside, there is to be no sinks, no toilet, just a cold water
shower, and the spacing of the Timber Trek -~ what is our policy,
now, Jim, is it half-inch?
TRUSTEE KING: 3/8ths.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: 3/8ths of an inch so water can go through it and
not run off. Do I have a second.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
MR. JUST: Thank you, very much.
TRUSTEE KING: Before we go any further, I would like to recognize
Jim Eckert is with the CAC. The Conservation Advisory Council, they
go out and do the same inspections we do and give us their
recommendations.
Board of Trustees 15 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Suffolk Environmental Consulting on behalf of LLOYD
KAPLAN requests an Administrative Permit to maintenance trim the
existing vegetation along the top of the bluff within the central
section of the property. Located: 105 Soundview Avenue, Southold.
We have all been there and all seen it and I don't think we
had a big problem with it. I would like to make a motion to approve
this application for the administrative permit.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number eleven, Twin Fork Landscape Contracting on
behalf of JOINT INDUSTRY BOARD OF ELECTRICAL INDUSTRIES request an
Administrative Permit to trim the phragmites to one inch by hand,
as needed. Located: 3800 Duck Pond Road, Cutchogue.
I looked at this and I have no problem with this area. It's
marked on the map. I make a motion to approve.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: Number 12, TOWN OF SOUTHOLD - LAND PRESERVATION
COMMITTEE requests an Administrative Permit to install
approximately 40' of split-rail fence on Town Open Space property.
Located: 70380 Main Road, Greenport.
This is brought to us from the Land Preservation Committee.
They have a problem of someone accessing town property, evidently,
and they want to put a 40-foot split-rail fence across the opening
so it can't be accessed. We were all out there. Any Board
comment?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I have a comment on this. I believe the owner of
the property adjacent to this Town of Southold property is Mr. Costello, and
Mr. Costeilo, could you step up to the microphone and introduce yourself?
MR. COSTELLO: My name is John Costello and I was the owner of that
property for a short period of time and it has since been transferred into a
corporation.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Is the corporation associated with Costello Marine?
MR. COSTELLO: No, it's associated with myself.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: My question is, are you willing to remove the fill
that was put in to create that read and not use it as a entrance to
your property any longer.
MR. COSTELLO: Yes. Right now -- there was a misunderstanding,
first of all, for the record, I would like to state that I thought
that that read was owned by Mrs. Sills. She is 98-years old and
has been using that access way for well over 80 years. I asked her
if it was all right if I used that access way and she said she had
no problem with it. That is why the access way was used. Then,
recently, I had a letter from the Southold Town Preservation saying
that they owned the read. I believe it's owned between the Land
Trust, possibly the county and the Preservation Board. And the
Board of Trustees 16 June 18, 2008
signs all on the adjacent pm perty am Land Trust but I will vacate
that portion and I will remove the fill. Them is appmximately
six to eight feet of fill that is encm aching upon the
right-of-way. I will remove that, hopefully prior, and I also told
Mm. Sills at the same time, any damage done to her mad would be
repaired and she asked me to repair an area next to her mailbox,
which I said I would.
I intend to repair the ama and I'm hoping that the
Pm servation Group will allow me to repair whatever damage is done
to the road because Mm. Sills certainly deserves to have that use
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. My m commendation, since this is the
Town of Southold that will be doing this work, in other words it's
taxpayer money going toward this, and it sounds like Mr. Costello
is willing to corm ct the action them, once that condition is corm cted I
don't see the need for a post and mil fence any longer and for the
taxpayem to have to pay for the labor and material.
So I would like to see, I would like to m commend that this be
tabled, giving Mr. Costello 30 days to do the repair work and then
once that repair work is done, I'm not sum them will be a need
for a fence any longer.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Is 30 days long enough?
MR. COSTELLO: It's plenty long enough. I just need the piece of
equipment to be able to come back. I need a backhoe to do
it. It will do less damage. The other thing is if Southold Town
and the preservation group decides they want to put a split-mil
fence them, I would certainly put it them at my own expense.
I mean, if I'm not using the right-of-way, what difference does it
make. It's not a lot of money. It's a little effort, But very
little money. But I'll block it off. I could put a piling them
and block it off. But if that's what they wish, that's fine, too.
But I do want to prepare the mad and I have to get permission to
do that.
TRUSTEE KING: I don't have a pm blem with a permit for the fence.
If they don't need to put a fence there, they don't have to. At
least they have a permit to do it.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Can they put signage there? Is it less intrusive?
TRUSTEE KING: 40 feet of split-rail doesn't cost a lot.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I agree with Jim. Give the permit.
TRUSTEE KING: Right. And if they don't need it, let them do it.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Let me clarify. I don't have a problem with a
split-mil fence them either. I'm just trying to save the
taxpayers payers. If Mr. Costello is willing to do the work, that's great.
MS. HULSE: Now we have an existing violation on that pm perty that
is outstanding and if there is any additional work being done I'll
just request, I know it seems a little silly, but that they apply
for a new permit to do that, given the fact they have an outstanding violation.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the application for 40-foot of
split-rail fence on the town open space property.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
Board of Trustees 17 June 18, 2008
(ALL AYES.)
MS. HULSE: Just to clarify, if the Land Preservation Committee or
someone from the town is going to consent to that and to mitigate,
are you going to require him to come back for a permit or not?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's not, on the, it would not be on his property and I would --
MS. HULSE: Some of the work would with the fill.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: This permit we just did was for the fence, not
removing the fill.
MS. HULSE: So that's not going to be part of the equation?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No. If the land preservation wants him to do the
fence at his expense, I don't think he needs a permit from us to do that.
MS. HULSE: I didn't know if there was going to be a possible --
TRUSTEE KING: Could it be part of taking care of the violation
would be to remove the fill?
MS. HULSE: I assume that's what the Trustees would have in mind and
possibly revegetation.
TRUSTEE KING: If that was the case I don't think he needs a permit
to do it.
MS. HULSE: No, I just don't want land preservation to be negotiating that.
TRUSTEE KING: Part of the resolution of the violation should be
taking care of business there.
MS. HULSE: I didn't know if you were giving them authority to go ahead
and negotiate with him. I didn't know if that was part of the equation.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No. Thank you for clarifying.
V. RESOLUTIONS-MOORINGS/STAKE PERMITS:
TRUSTEE KING: Number five, Resolutions Moorings and Stake Permits.
The Board didn't have a problem with any of these so we are
just going to lump them together and do it in one shot, so we don't
have to go through them one at a time, and save a little time
here. I'll make a motion to approve resolutions one through six
for moorings and stake permits. They read as follows:
Number one, ROBERT KOEBELE requests a Mooring Permit in Gull Pond
for a nine-foot boat, replacing mooring #10. Access: Public.
Number two, JOHN & CYNTHIA SWISKEY requests a Mooring Permit in
Corey Creek for a 23' boat, replacing Mooring #69. Access: Private.
Number three, BONNIE NAULT requests a Mooring Permit in East Creek
for a 13' float, replacing Mooring #757. Access: Public.
Number four, LES GAZZOLA requests a Mooring Permit in Corey Creek
for a 17' boat, replacing Mooring #77. Access: Public.
Number five, OLIVE HOWARD requests an Onshore/Offshore Stake Permit
in West Creek for a boat no larger than 12 feet. Access: Public.
And number six, BRUNO SEMON requests an Onshore/Offshore Stake
Permit in Narrow River for a 19' boat, replacing Stake #23. Access: Public.
Board of Trustees 18 June 18, 2008
MS. HULSE: This is a consent agenda, if anyone has any comments on
any of them, they should speak now.
(No response.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
VI. APPLICATIONS FOR AMENDMENTS/EXTENSIONS/TRANSFERS:
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: DOUG KALUNAS requests an Amendment to Permit #1068
to repair 35' of the existing bulkhead. Located: 624 Osprey Nest
Road, Greenport.
I was out there last week. I did have some questions.
MR. KALUNAS: Hi, how are you.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I know you and I spoke the other day about it. On
the drawing it shows that where that ramp is on the east side of
the property, I guess it is?
MR. KALUNAS: Yes.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: And you were going to convert that, extend that
bulkhead out, dght?
MR. KALUNAS: Yes, that was your idea. It was very good. Instead
of conforming with the land for the original bulkhead which is
losing sand, it can go right across, about 31 feet.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Did you bring in a revised drawing?
MR. KALUNAS: No, I just drew off of something that you requested.
Can I approach?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Please.
MR. KALUNAS: Going from here, here's the original bulkhead which is
collapsing right here. I was going to follow this. But I also am
going from here to there, 31 feet, and going straight across. This
is completely falling part. This is in satisfactory condition.
And it would be a little bulkhead, about five feet, and it would be plastic.
TRUSTEE KING: This is the existing bulkhead now?
MR. KALUNAS: This is a boat ramp here. This is sand and rocks
piled up there.
TRUSTEE KING: Where is the high water mark?
MR. KALUNAS: High water mark is about three feet below the
bulkhead. The bulkhead is five, five-and-a-half feet high. It's a
very Iow bulkhead. It was actually put in 32 years ago.
TRUSTEE KING: It's pretty difficult for that far out in front of
the existing bulkhead.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: That's the only problem I had. What I had in mind
was to do this as you go across here. I think that would be much more --
TRUSTEE KING: Inplace bulkhead replacement is exempt or consistent
with LWRP but if you start jumping out that far, it's going to be
found inconsistent with the LWRP.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: So I'm suggesting we allow this to stay where it is
and just come across here rather than do this whole thing; come
across from here to here, tie it in and then it's pretty much
consistent with everything we would normally want to do, which is
Board of Trustees 19 June 18, 2008
then in fact pretty much nothing more than a replacement of what is
already there.
MR. KALUNAS: I'm very sensitive to the needs of the environment,
always have been.
TRUSTEE KING: I didn't look at this.
MR. KALUNAS: And plant American Beach Grass behind that instead of
natural turf.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Right. That's the other stipulation we would make,
because there is no buffer there at all along the whole way, so.
MR. KALUNAS: That, I would do. The only other, the existing
bulkhead is a portion there which is 42 feet exactly. It's in good
shape but there is some holes in this and is there some siltation.
I have a guy that gave me an estimate on putting the sheathing up,
half-inch or quarter inch, plastic, non-toxic, 4x8, on the outside,
he said, and it would not harm any of the bottom or anything like
that. Because we are not disturbing the land. It will just go over the
existing bulkhead and seal some of the slight rock, you might say.
TRUSTEE KING: I know the material you are talking about. We have
seen it used. Yes.
MR. KALUNAS: And it's by Richard Bonvenito. He's the one that
would do it. I have their telephone number also.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: You'll bring that along the whole bulkhead?
MR. KALUNAS: Only in that portion. The other portion just to the
west which is about 41 feet. It's just a face.
TRUSTEE GHOSiO: Anybody else have any questions?
(No response.)
I would like to make a motion that we approve the request for
an amendment to repair the 35 feet of existing bulkhead with the
stipulation that the bulkhead be replaced pretty much inkind and
inplace on the west end. Instead of coming out as you have
indicated on the drawing, we would like to see it extend straight
across to the east terminating at that pole is marked. So I'll ask
you redo the drawing and also to approve 4x8 plastic sheathing to
seal the bulkhead in that section. What did you say, 42 feet?
MR. KALUNAS: Yes.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: And ask you to notate that on the revised drawing
as well. Pending receipt of that revised drawing an approval by
the president I would offer that we approve with those
stipulations.
TRUSTEE KING: Did you say you were going to plant American Beach
Grass there?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes, and a ten foot non-turf buffer.
MR. KALUNAS: Yes, it could be beach grass, rosa rugosa or American
beach grass.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll second that.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would just ask you give us a revised plan before
we issue that.
MR. KALUNAS: I'll do it right now. Thank you, Board members.
Board of Trustees 20 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number two, Suffolk Environmental on behalf of
BRUNO FRANKOLA requests an Amendment to Permit #5999 to construct an
8x16' deck with stairs to grade located 49' from the wetland
boundary, and to extend the length of the two existing concrete
retaining walls by ten feet each, located 53' and 70' from the
wetland boundary. Located: 840 Northfield Lane, Southold.
The Board went out and looked at this last month for a
pre-submission inspection and the applicant has applied for exactly
what the Board requested at that time. This has an inconsistency
under the LWRP but that was given back in 1997 for the original
application for the permit, so that inconsistency was addressed
when the permit was approved, in I believe April of 1997, and the CAC
went out and they resolved to support the amendment of the application.
So if there is no decision from Board members I would --
TRUSTEE KING: You said 19977 It could not have been that long ago.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Sorry. 2007. Thank you. So I would like to make a
motion to approve this.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Patricia Moore on behalf of JOANN WALKER
requests an Amendment to Permit #6470 to eliminate the proposed
pool deck, change the end of the proposed addition to the dwelling
from round to square, and inkind/inplace repair of the existing
beach stairs, beach cabana, wood platform and roof over wood
platform. Located: 290 Town Harbor Terrace, Southold.
MS. MOORE: Good evening. Patdcia Moore. This apparently had
permits in the past. The parts of it, at one time the addition was
going to be round then they switched it back to square, then back
to round, and now we are back to square. So I lost track which one
is the last one. But we have the addition on the east side of the
building is as shown on the plans. They have also reduced the size
of the pool and eliminated the decking that was going to be around
the pool. She prefers to have it more natural. So that's being
submitted so it's consistent with the plan that will ultimately be
developed. The beach structures are in perfectly good condition,
um, I think they are just going to be painted and maintained as
they have been, since the '70s, I think vintage wise, so I wanted
to be sure that everything was showing on the permit.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: This application has the same reference to the
inconsistency of the LWRP. It is from the original and the
original, again, permit, addressed many of those issues that we had
15-foot non-turf buffer, the drainage system, drywells, so that was
all addressed prior. And also to even further that consistency you've
removed the application for the pool.
MS. MOORE: Yes.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: So with all that it's brought into consistency,
even though this cabana would not ideally be consistent with LWRP,
it is existing. We would have a condition that there be no further
expansion, no electric, no plumbing, no habitation of this cabana.
Board of Trustees 21 June 18, 2008
MS. MOORE: There is already electricity but there is absolutely no
habitation. The cabana actually opens up. It's an open structure
in the summer. So it just seals up like a storage shed and then
opens up with, it has electricity in it.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We'll make it a condition there be no further
expansion and no habitation
MS. MOORE: Habitation is fine. That was not there.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: All that's on the survey that was applied for in
'06 will be continued on this permit and also there seems to have
been a request for the dimensions of the existing structure, so it
was not measured when you were out there? I don't see it.
MS. MOORE: Are you talking about -- which one?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: There is a notation hem.
MS. MOORE: Yes, the staff asked for exact dimensions of the beach
structures and I provided those.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Yes, I'm just saying they are hem. A little
fuzzy but they are here. Am them any other Board comments on this?
(No response.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Being no further comments, I'll make a motion to
approve as stipulated.
TRUSTEE KING: Second. All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
MS. MOORE: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number four, Patricia Moore on behalf of JAMIE
NANCY SANTIAGO requests an Amendment to Permit #6654 to install
pavers are und the proposed swimming pool rather than decking and
install a 10xl 8' fish pond. Located: 3745 Nassau Point Road, Cutchogue.
We have all been out to this property several times and I think we am
aware of the fish pond, where it is, we have no problem with that. And we
don't have a problem with the pavers as opposed to the decking.
So unless them is comment, I'll make a motion to approve as submitted,
as applied for.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MS. MOORE: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: Number five En-Consultants on behalf of ANTHONY &
GIUSTINA IENNA requests an Amendment to Permit #2069 to replace the
existing dock with a fixed timber dock consisting of a 3x21' fixed
catwalk, 3x14' hinged romp and 6x16 float secured by two six-inch
diameter pilings. Located: 500 Glenn Road, Southold.
We went out and took a look at this. I think there were some
discussions on perhaps there should have been a full application.
But the gentleman came into the office and at that time was told we
would do this with an amendment. So I would like to stay with the
amendment. I think it's simple enough.
I had some -- Rob, do you want to come to the mic? I had some
discussions with Rob Herman about this. We would like to see that
catwalk moved. I guess it would be to the west.
Board of Trustees 22 June 18, 2008
MR. HERMAN: Yes. Rob Herman, En-Consultants. I relayed that to
Dr. lenna. He didn't have a problem with it. Even the angle, we
were just trying to stay in line with what the previous structure
was. So I'm not sure that the float would even need to move. We
may be able to just rotate it a bit. I think what you were driving
at is the way the catwalk exists now it's dght up against bacharus
and other vegetation and there is a whole clearing right next to
it. So probably if we walk it over one catwalk width or just rotated it.
So Dr. lenna didn't have a problem with that so i could just go back
and revise the plan accordingly just to keep it in that cleared area.
I don't see that as a problem.
TRUSTEE KING: When you talk to him I would recommend, there is an
aluminum boat to the left of the catwalk. It's full of water and it's full of
mosquitos. Just flip it upside down. It is loaded with -- it's one of those.
I tried, there is a little plug in the back but it's stuffed up. You can't even
unplug it.
MR. HERMAN: Okay.
TRUSTEE KING: With that change of plans, moving the dock to the
side, away from that vegetation, I would like to recommend approval
of this as submitted with that change.
MR. HERMAN: And I could get you the revised plans.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Seven, eight, nine, ten and eleven, we have no
problem with. We can lump those. Right through 15. The next
seven through 15 we can group together.
TRUSTEE KING: So what we'll do in this next batch, numbers seven
through 15, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any of these.
I'll make a motion to approve them in one lump sum. They read as
follows:
ROBERT O'BRIEN requests a One-Year Extension to Permit ~6420A, as
issued on August 23, 2006. Located: 1955 Truman's Path, East
Marion.
Number eight, JOHN R. CORBLEY, requests a One-Year Extension to
Permit #6405, as issued on July 19, 2006, Located: 680 Mason Drive,
Cutchogue.
Number nine, ROBERT NOYES, requests a One-Year Extension to Wetland
Permit #6410 and Coastal Erosion Permit ~6410C, as issued on July
19, 2006. Located: East End Road, Fishers Island.
Number ten, LEO & VIRGINIA ALESSI, request the last One-Year
Extension to Permit #6190 as issued on August 24, 2005. Located:
1700 Cedar Point Drive East, Southold.
Number 11, LI SOUND OYSTER, LLC, requests the last One-Year
Extension to Permit #6157 as issued on July 20, 2005, and amended
on October 19, 2005. Located: 1240 Love Lane, Mattituck.
Board of Trustees 23 June 18, 2008
Number 12, Regi Weile, Architect on behalf of IRWIN SEIGEL requests
a One-Year Extension to Permit ~6421 as issued on August 23, 2006.
Located: 17327 Main Road, East Marion.
Number 13, Samuels & Steelman Architect on behalf of STEVEN
BENFIELD & SHEILA PATEL requests a One-Year Extension to Permit
#6435 as issued on August 23, 2006. Located: 19965 Soundview
Avenue, Southold.
Number 14, HP Broom on behalf of NOL, LLC, requests a One-Year
Extension to Permit #6432 as issued on August 23, 2006, and Amended
on March 19, 2008. Located: Private Road, Fishers Island.
And Number 15, Gary F. Olsen Esq., on behalf of the ESTATE OF
EILEEN O. GOLDNER requests the last One-Year extension to Permit
~6160 as issued on July 20, 2005. Located: 435 Bay Home Road,
Southold.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: Number 16, William Goggins on behalf of PATRIClA
GILCHRIST MANClNO requests the last One-Year Extension to Permit
#6182 as issued on August 24, 2005. Located: 15 Fourth Street, New
Suffolk.
We went down there. The feeling of the Board was the two
center groins, the two short groins (perusing.) We were down
there. We felt the two short groins should not be rebuilt. They
are really not doing anything. That would be the only change I
would make to that. This would be the last one-year extension on
this permit. With that modification.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: They can let them remain.
TRUSTEE KING: They don't have to remove them, no. Let them remain.
They just can't be rebuilt. That's my motion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
The two short groins they can leave.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Part of the reason we don't feel they need to be
rebuilt is they are very close together and the two other groins
would be sufficient. They can be left. They don't have to be removed.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to go off our regular hearing and
on to our public hearings.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
VII. PUBLIC HEARINGS:
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Suffolk Environmental Consulting on behalf of SUSAN
MAGRINO DUNNING requests an Amendment to Wetland Permit #6257 and
Board of Trustees 24 June 18, 2008
Coastal Erosion Permit fl6257C to demolish the existing
single-family dwelling and rear deck/steps, and construct a new
single-family dwelling, rear decking, swimming pool and hot tub,
located: 925 Stephenson's Road, Orient.
The Board was out there last week. We all saw it. The CAC
did not make an inspection therefore no recommendation was made.
And LWRP determined on the original permit that it was, or the
original application, to be consistent.
Is there anybody here who would like to address this application?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk Environmental Consulting for
the applicant. This is a pretty simple matter. We received permits from
you folks for actually a much larger house. We are demolishing a house
with a deck that is currently seaward of the coastal erosion hazard line.
We are moving it landward of the coastal erosion hazard line and we are
downsizing over what was previously permitted by this Board.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Some of the comments that were made while we were
out there doing an inspection is we noticed there are eight signs on the beach.
MR. ANDERSON: Eight signs?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes, on the beach frontage there.
TRUSTEE KING: Saying it's a private beach. No trespassing.
MR. ANDERSON: I don't think it's a private beach.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: You might want to remove those signs.
MR. ANDERSON: They were put up by the neighbors, this fellow was
telling me.
MR. LUKEMEN: Cy Lukemen. They were not put up by the owner. I'll
see that they come down.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: We would appreciate the signs get taken down.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I don't know how they got there but if you could
take those signs down. Aside from that I don't think the Board had
any particular problem with the project, right? Any questions, comments?
(No response.)
I would make a motion that we approve this application for the
amendment. I'll make a motion we close this hearing first.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would like to make a motion we approve this
application as submitted. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number two SOPHIE LATHAM & PRISCILLA JAMIESON
request a Wetland Permit and Coastal Erosion Permit to rebuild the
existing jetty and repair the existing bulkhead. Located: 2180
Peter's Neck Road, Orient.
The Board went out and looked at this project in May. The
applicant came in and we talked about it extensively at the last
hearing. We tabled it because we had erred. We had not taken
measurements of the jetty that is the eastern end of the property
that they were asking to rebuild. So I just want to go over
Board of Trustees 25 June 18, 2008
briefly, is the applicant here tonight?
(No response.)
Okay. Just so we have it on the record, what we talked about
last time. The groin to the western part of the property, we were
asking not to be rebuilt. And the wood bulkhead that they
originally asked for 380 feet; 200 feet of it starting from the western
edge of the property, we had talked about approving. The rest of that
bulkhead we are willing to permit in but there is no need to approve
rebuilding it because it's all completely buried and the beach is really
built up tremendously in front of it so the bulkhead is not functioning
at all. So the applicant, as I recall, last month, didn't have a problem
with that.
And that got us to the groin that is listed as a wood jetty on
the eastern part of the property. We went out and measured that
and we wish to stipulate that we will approve a Iow profile groin
no more than 18 inches above grade on the down drift side, which
was the eastern side, and it was approximately 65 feet from the
exposed wooden piling that is there, on the landward end. So there
is a landward end of that groin that has an exposed piling standing
up probably a foot or so higher than the other pilings. So we took
the measurement from there and we are willing to approve 65 feet
from that exposed piling.
This was to be done with vinyl sheathing and, again, to be Iow
profile. And that's all the comments I have in here. It was
exempt under LWRP and the CAC resolved not to support the
application in May because it was incomplete, recommending
additional information regarding the length and design of the
jetty. So we have now hopefully addressed that.
Are there any comments from the audience on this application?
(No response.)
Not seeing any, are there any comments from the Board on this
application?
(No response.)
If there are no comments, I'll make a motion to close this public
hearing.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll make a motion to approve the application as
stated, stipulating that only 200 feet of the bulkhead will be
approved to be replaced starting from the western end, what is
marked here as western jetty, it's actually a groin, but that will
not be replaced. And at the eastern end what is referred to as the
wood jetty, actually a groin, that that will be replaced as a Iow
profile no more than 18 inches above grade on the down drift or
eastern side, and that we we'll approve 65 feet starting from the
most landward exposed piling, 65 feet in length.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
Board of Trustees 26 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Number three, Costello Marine Contracting on
behalf of STEVEN & SEVGI UYANIK request a Wetland Permit and
Coastal Erosion Permit to remove partial remains of existing
bulkhead. Regrade existing bank to top of bluff, construct 88 feet
of new bulkhead in place; eight-foot return on west end and 16-foot
return on east end. Remove all existing rocks encountered during
construction and replace as armoring at base of new bulkhead upon
completion. Remove existing platform and stairway to beach.
Construct new 10x16' upper deck; 10x12' lower deck and three-foot
wide stairways to beach in new location. Provide ten-foot wide
non-turf buffer zone behind new bulkhead, revegetate with Cape
American Beach Grass, install erosion control geometric design
nylon matting "Enkamat" 7010 or equal from base of bluff to top of
bluff and revegetate slope with a combination of Bayberry, Rosa
Virginia and Beach Plum plantings. Located: 55055 North Road,
Southold.
We looked at this a couple of times. Is there anyone here who
would like to speak to this application?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes, my name is John Costello. We are the agents for
the Uyanik's on this bulkhead. It's a replacement of an existing
portion of a bulkhead retaining wall on the property. And I just,
earlier in the evening, I gave a copy of what was discussed at the
meeting we had onsite. We eliminated both decks, were eliminated
from this project. And the concern, what we did is confer with the
surveyor the rock that is on this, the original drawing, is not in
the proper location. It is closer to the property line and it is
larger. All he has is notes. They don't survey the rock because
of its size.
What we did is came up with a drawing, additional drawings and
I submitted them, and showing the elimination of the decks and
putting in 32 square foot, one at the top as an entry and one at
the base of the stairway down to the bulkhead. We also concluded
that the existing large boulder, we will stop the bulkhead behind
that large boulder as suggested, and put in a small five-foot
return with no backing system, so that you do not excavate any more
than necessary in order to keep the vegetation in that area the
best you can. The bulkhead on the west side of the boulder,
nothing will be done. It will be completed behind the boulder. So
that we do not bother any of the vegetation or potential vegetation
on the adjoining property.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Okay. I have a CAC report here that does not
support the application because of the high energy shoreline
resulting in serious erosion, continuing hardening of the shoreline
will steepen the beach and accelerate the beach down current of the
less protected bluffs. If anyone concurs with that. LWRP is
consistent, although this was May's LWRP. The proposed action is
not in compliance with the following. Are the decks still proposed
as such?
MR. COSTELLO: No, just a 32 square foot entry deck and a 32 at the
conclusion of the stairway.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Okay. And LWRP also states the proposed action
Board of Trustees 27 June 18, 2008
is not in compliance with the removal of the existing rocks
encountered during construction and regrading of the existing bank
at the top of the bluff. Are there any other comments?
MR. COSTELLO: I would like to make one additional point. The only
rocks that would be placed landward of the proposed bulkhead would
be the rocks encountered in the existing bulkhead line. Anything
that we encounter that is there now beneath the surface or on top
of the surface will be placed immediately in front of the sheathing
to armor, to some minor degree, the bulkhead.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Are there any other comments from the audience?
(No response.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Any other comments from the Board?
TRUSTEE KING: I think they addressed just about everything we
talked about in the field, that I could think of. My main concern
is no disturbance between that huge boulder. They took care of
that. That's my main concern. The size of the platforms have been
downsized to meet the cede.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Any comments, Bob?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: No.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'm still having difficulty with the vegetated
bluff as it is. I thought there was more discussion about that.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I think overall the plan is pretty good. He's
trying to save the bluff and the vegetation is there is to be put
back. I think we discussed that. I happen to think that putting
the boulders in front of the bulkhead is better than not putting
the boulders in front of the bulkhead, to try to save the bluff.
TRUSTEE KING: I think it's in the cede any bulkheads in the Sound
have to be armored with stone anyway.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I agree with you, Jim.
TRUSTEE KING: If these are stones that are buried in the back that
have to be removed to put the bulkhead in, it's not like you're
taking stones from the beach to put the bulkhead in.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Right. I seen a lot of those homes over there
getting pounded in some of these storms and the vegetation will get
wiped out anyway if we don't do something to protect it.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Our consistency is these boulders are not --
TRUSTEE KING: They are actually buried in the bank. They are not
part of the natural stone from the beach.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I think, what I'm stuck on is Scott Hilary's
comments is whether you were using them or not using them, they
could still be removed. So you are not removing them from the
position they are in at all. I'm just remembering Scott's comment.
MR. COSTELLO: I'm not removing them from the beach. Only what is
encountered. And they will be encountered. There are rocks
underneath that soil, in the bulkhead line.
TRUSTEE KING: Correct me if I'm wrong, John, my understanding is
you have to remove the stones in order to put the bulkhead in?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes, I do. When I excavate, whatever stones -- there
will be stones. And the those encountered will be placed on the
offshore side of the bulkhead as armor.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Okay. I'll make a motion to close the headng.
Board of Trustees 28 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'll make a motion to approve the application
for the Uyanik's as stated.
TRUSTEE KING: No, not as stated.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: With a change of instead of constructing the upper
deck it would be a 32-square foot platform and the lower deck will
be 32-square foot platform instead of decking, instead of part of the stairs.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That are part of the stairs.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'll make that motion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I was trying to address the inconsistency that
we are mitigating the LWRP because the rocks will be remaining and
if they are removed because of construction, they'll be placed in front of.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And by bringing it to 32-square foot brings it
into consistency.
TRUSTEE KING: There is a ten-foot non-turf buffer at the top, also,
right? Which is not there now.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Yes.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: That's my motion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll second all that.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number four, En-Consultants, on behalf of lAN &
AMANDA MORRIS requests a Wetland Permit and Coastal Erosion Permit
for the pre-existing 16.8x17.8' attached deck; pre-existing
11.3x14.4' deck; and pre-existing timber stairs and platforms on
the bluff. Located: 1595 Aquaview Avenue, East Marion.
We looked at this last field inspection. It's obviously been
there a while and it is inconsistent with LWRP. It was basically
the platforms are on the bluff that is not consistent with our
current code. But as we stated, it's all pre-existing.
My only comment we have when we were out there is that if this
was to be rebuilt, it would have to be rebuilt to the current code
at that time. So it would have to be reduced in size if it was to be rebuilt.
MR. HERMAN: Rob Herman of Eh-Consultants on behalf of the
applicant. I'll just respond quickly to both of those. Lori can
correct me if I'm wrong, but the applications that require review
under LWRP have to constitute an application pursuant to Chapter
268. There is no application proposed here. We are asking you to
issue a formal permit for pre-existing structure. But actually any
determination of inconsistency by the Planning Board on this
application would be incorrect and improper. So I want the record
to show that unless Lori corrects me. There is no action being
proposed.
With respect to the other comment, I mean it's really no forum
for that at the moment because we are not proposing to reconstruct
it, but these are legally pre-existing structures so I would think
that the Morris' would have the right to maintain them.
Board of Trustees 29 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes.
MR. HERMAN: If they came back to reconstruct them, that the Board
would also consider to let them to reconstruct them as they've
existed now for four decades.
Again, that discussion is for other time but I don't want to
forfeit any rights as part of this process. In other words, what
is happening here is it's an unusual application but I think it's
one that the Board will begin to see more often. This is a result
of a transfer of land and the new owners want to ensure that the
permits that are legally pre-existing for formally recognized as
such. Obviously the Board doesn't grandfather structures anymore,
but the I think the Board will start to see this more often as
people get a little smarter about making sure that things other
than the dwellings are legally permitted. So we are going back to
Building Department for the portion of this work that would have
required a building permit. Obviously this work would not have
required Trustee permits at the time they were implemented. That's
all we are asking the Board to speak to right now.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Right. We understand it's pre-existing and
nonconforming. We do get a lot of them and we do tend to permit
them, but we would like to take the opportunity to say that if it's
going to be a total reconstruction in the future that of course
they would have to come back to us and we would take that time to
bring it into code as much as possible.
MR. HERMAN: In saying that you are suggesting you would try to do
something that can't be done. To bring the structure into code it
would have to be set back across the road. I don't think the Board
can stipulate that now.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's why I say we try to. Square footage wise,
make it smaller.
MR. HERMAN: I recognize that but I would object to that being a
stipulation in the permit.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Okay. Any comments from the Board?
MS. HULSE: He's correct on the LWRP assessment. There is no
activity, so is there no action.
MR. HERMAN: Thank you, Lori.
TRUSTEE KING: That's one for Rob.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Would anyone else like to speak on this
application?
(No response.)
Any comments from the Board?
(No response.)
I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll make a motion to approve the application as
submitted for lan and Amanda Morris.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
Board of Trustees 30 June 18, 2008
MR. HERMAN: Thank you
TRUSTEE KING: Folks, we'll take a little break here.
(After a brief recess, these proceedings continue as follows.)
WETLAND PERMITS:
TRUSTEE KING: Folks, we'll get going again.
Number one, under wetland permits, STACY SHEPPARD requests a
Wetland Permit for the existing 49' jetty. Located: 710 Park Avenue
Extension, Mattituck.
I still I think I'm probably as confused as you are on this
thing. Rather than permit the existing jetty I would rather permit
a new Iow profile groin in its place. I think that's the way to
go. it cleans the whole thing up. It's consistent with LWRP.
This is an area that houses were built, here many years ago. It's
a complete groin field. It's a really erosion problem here and I
think it's prudent for to us approve this groin. I think it will
improve the situation. I talked to your neighbor Mr. Drum before
he passed away and told him this is the thing he should do also.
Maybe down the read the family will get in it, because I know what
a problem you have there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I want to note this was tabled from last month
because we didn't have the LWRP.
TRUSTEE KING: For me it's kind of a no brainer, if you look at the
location
MS. SHEPPARD: That means I have to build a new jetty then?
TRUSTEE KING: You have a permit to build a new one when the time
comes, yes. What's there is there. I think you would be much
further ahead to go ahead and do this. I think it will help you out a lot.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Do we want her to remove the pieces that she
put up?
TRUSTEE KING: There is very little showing now.
MR. WICKHAM: My name is Jay Wickham. The pieces were gone six
months after. The ice took them out.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So pretty much what is there was added --
TRUSTEE KING: It's not a lot there. That's why I say --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's what the violation was for. I don't know
if we needed to have her remove that.
TRUSTEE KING: I don't think it's necessary at this point.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We have pictures taken 5/22. It doesn't show
much left.
TRUSTEE KING: Any other comments from the audience?
(No response.)
I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the new Iow profile
groin as per the plans submitted on April 8, 2008.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
Board of Trustees 31 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MS. SHEPPARD: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: ARNOLD BLAIR requests a Wetland Permit for the
as-built log gazebo and to revegetate a cleared area. Located: 4660
Vanston Road, Cutchogue.
Lauren, did we get an LWRP on this?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I spoke to Scott this afternoon. He said he
couldn't get that one done. There were a few he couldn't get done.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I don't believe Mr. Blair is here because it was
so minor I didn't feel it was necessary. Am I going to -- if we
don't have an LVVRP.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: When I spoke to Scott Hilary and the LWRP
coordinator today he mentioned there was other structures in that
area that he was not sure that had approvals, and I said I was not
familiar because I had not gone out to the site. So he mentioned
that. I don't see any in this picture. Were there other
structures in that area that might need a permit? I mean I know
that's not in the application here. He just mentioned that
was a concern.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: If there is no LWRP then we don't address it.
So am I tabling it or?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We could open the hearing and table it.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: It's already been opened and there is nobody
here. So I'll make a motion to table this application and wait for
the LWRP review.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Number three, Suffolk environmental Consulting on
behalf of KEVlN GALLAGNER requests a Wetland Permit to install a
Bio-Log system (with fill and native plantings) within two separate
areas along the southern shoreline of subject property in order to
prevent any further erosion thereon. Located: 40 Beechwood Lane,
Southold.
The LWRP has found this to be consistent. CAC resolved to
support the application with the condition that work is conducted
within the general shoreline and there is no further encroachment
into the water.
The Board was out there last week and I don't have any
comments from the field inspection so, are there any comments from
the audience? Would anybody like to speak to this application?
MR. ANDERSON: Bruce Anderson, Suffolk Environmental Consulting for
the applicant, here to answer any questions you may have.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any questions from the Board?
(No response.)
I think we were all in support of it.
TRUSTEE KING: I think everybody supported it but the applicant's
Board of Trustees 32 June 18, 2008
wife. She doesn't want this approved
MR. ANDERSON: Let me tell you what happened.
TRUSTEE KING: She was adamant. I want what they got over there.
MR. ANDERSON: Let me tell you what happened. We came before you on
this almost seven or eight months ago, I'll say, and that was, in
my opinion, that's what should have been there. We filed with the
DEC. DEC came back that we want you to use something called willow
whips. I said what the heck are those. So I have been chasing
Karen for all of that six or eight months on Willow Whips and we
finally flushed out there was no such thing as Willow Whips. It
was just made up. So this was the only thing I could, and I don't
know that this will work, I don't know if it's preferable, so we
made this application. And now DEC is saying, well, we don't think
you should be able to protect your property at all. So I'm
hopefully going on obtain this permit file with them and ask them
to sort of wake up and regulate this in a reasonable fashion
because I think people have certainly some right to protect their
property.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: When we were out there Mr. Gallagher said he
does get some wave action there and that's what he feels is causing
this. I don't really know about the Bio-Log system but I kind of
looked into it a little bit this past couple of days and from what
I see it works great when there is no wave action. But when there
is some wave action, Bio-Logs are degradable. So eventually that
will go and if the plantings don't take, he'll have the same problem again.
MR. ANDERSON: Right. Well, what we do in these cases --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I don't know how long that process takes, though.
MR. ANDERSON: I know so little about the environment these days and
what we do is when we are confronted with these problems I say
okay, we'll do it your way and when it fails, we will have
exhausted that alternative, you know. And that's, unfortunately,
that's what happens. So my attitude is we'll try it, we'll plant
it up very densely. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then we'll
have to revisit the problem.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You can plant right through that, right?
MR. ANDERSON; Yes, you can. And we've had mixed successes, is
really the truth. The open part of that creek, if you look out you
see it's all very open in front of him, so a southwest wind will
generate winds that directly, you know, hit him head on, and we
think that's what has caused this. So we do the best we can and
see how it works out and if we have to revisit it, that's what
we'll do. If we do nothing, I think it will get worse. And
honestly, they are losing marsh by doing it this way. Because I
don't see the benefit of having land which is, let's call it high
marsh, collapsing into the sea and becoming a sand bar. I don't
see how that benefits the environment, personally. But we'll see.
Sometimes people, with your permit, we'll persist and see how it
works out.
TRUSTEE KING: Any thoughts of a Iow sill bulkhead there?
MR. ANDERSON: I'm sure they would be happy to do that.
TRUSTEE KING: We did one down west of Wells Creek. Bob Keith. As
Board of Trustees 33 June 18, 2008
a matter of fact Karen Grolick designed it and it worked out very well.
MR. ANDERSON: What application was that; do you know?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Bob Keith in Mattituck. Meadow Beach.
TRUSTEE KING: Scollard (sic) and Keith. Two neighbors. There was
an erosion problem with the bog there.
MR. MCGREEVY: See me after I'll tell you where it is.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's at the entrance of Deep Hole Creek.
MR. MCGREEVY: I'll tell you how to get there.
TRUSTEE KING: You may want to take a look at something like that.
MR. ANDERSON: I think that's a better, to me, that would be a
better solution than what I'm even proposing today.
TRUSTEE KING: I know this is what was done down there and it worked
out very well.
MR. ANDERSON: And it's called Scollard and Keith.
TRUSTEE KING: Those were the people, yes, next door neighbors.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: CAC also recommended that the use of a Iow sill
bulkhead be done to attempt to prevent erosion.
TRUSTEE KING: Because then you plant behind it with spartina. It
comes out pretty nice.
MR. ANDERSON: I don't mean to drag this out, but --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Call me. It's right around the corner from my
house.
MR. ANDERSON: Why don't we do this. You could approve it if you
wish. Maybe you want table it. I don't what you want to do.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I suggest we move on it and if you come back --
TRUSTEE KING: If you get something else, we'll amend it.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Or if it's a totally different project you might
have to --
MR. ANDERSON: I just want to find a solution is all I want to do.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other comments or concerns?
(No response.)
I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I'll make a motion to approve the application as
stated on number three for Kevin Gallagher.
TRUSTEE KING: Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, very much.
TRUSTEE KING: Talk to Rob Herman because he was the consultant on
those two.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number four, McCarthy Management on behalf of
BAYVlEW PACIFIC LTD, CIO PATRICK MCCARTHY requests a Wetland Permit
to remove the enclosed porch attached to the existing dwelling and
construct an 18x34.9' addition in same location and a 15x34.9'
deck. Located: 1100 Pine Avenue, Southold.
The Board did go out and look at this. This was found
inconsistent under LWRP because of the proposed setback where it's
56 from the tidal boundary and also under the construction
Board of Trustees 34 June 18, 2008
standards of our code 275-11, specifically paragraph three, for new
or remodeled homes cannot be situated or modified so that I they
project closer to the wetland boundary than homes on either side of
the subject lot.
The CAC, I believe, did not make an inspection however the
council would not support any further encroachment to the water.
Is there anybody here to here speak on behalf of this application?
MR. MCCARTHY: Good evening, Tom McCarthy, McCarthy Management, on
behalf of the applicant.
We understand your concern about the going closer to the water than
any of the adjoining properties. I would just like to state for
the record that the map of Goose Bay Estates was an old file map
subdivision done in 1934 and filed within the Office of the County
Clerk. So the adjacent properties to the west are all consistent
in size, development and nature to this application, and we are
patterning our application consistent with properties to the west.
To the east was developed at a different point in time. They
are larger properties and those properties afford the other
homeowners that are there different abilities to have different
setbacks. The adjacent property to the east is about an acre and a
quarter. And the other properties that are in this neighborhood to
the west are a third of an acre to perhaps half acre at best.
What the applicant has done at his expense at this point in
time has moved forward and we have prepared some documentation that
I would like to give to the Board regarding the adjacent properties
to the east, the next four properties on Oak Avenue in Goose Bay
Estates that are similarly situated. We have setbacks for the
houses from the property lines as well as the setbacks from patios
or decks that front these houses adjacent to, that reach out to the
north, to the property line.
(Board members perusing).
These are the average setbacks of the houses and average setbacks
of the patios.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What did the applicant just submit?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: He submitted the properties to the west, the
footprint and the patios and the distance from the street.
MR. MCCARTHY: The average setback of the four homes to the east,
the average setback of the houses to the property line to the north
is 56.2 feet. Our application proposes a 59.1 foot setback, so
greater than the average of the four houses to the east that are
similarly situated. Additionally, the setbacks of their decks and
patios that face the water where everyone spends a majority of
their time, that average is 42.3 feet. We have come in behind that
average of 44.4 feet. So we are looking for something less than
the average of what happens to be in the immediate vicinity of this
application.
Additionally, for the record, the next parcel to the east on
the other side of Pine Avenue has a 32 foot setback for the deck to
its northerly property line. We are certainly not out in front of
that. Our application proposes a 44 foot setback at its closest
point. Additionally, the property line at Goose Creek, this is not
Board of Trustees 35 June 18, 2008
a rectangular property, so the setback increases the further east
you go. So it increases another eight feet as you travel away from
that closest point.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Do you have a drawing showing the house to the
east in comparison to this?
MR. MCCARTHY: I don't have one at this time. I can supplement the
application with that. The property to the east is setback, I
would say that the closest structure is a retaining wall for a
pool. That is somewhere between 75 and 100 feet back.
I have a letter I would like to offer into the record from
that owner. (Handing).
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So everybody knows, letters on applications are due
the Monday before the hearing. So letters would have been due this
past Monday for anything to be included in the record for this particular hearing.
MR. MCCARTHY: I apologize.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: That's okay.
MR. MCCARTHY: The synopsis of the letter is stating there is no
objection to the proposed work that was mentioned in the
application or any modification the Board deems necessary.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What I have here is an aerial photograph that was
done as part of the LWRP evaluation and what we have done when we
have gone out and looked at applications, we have done line of sight
to neighboring properties. And this is what we did on yours. We
went out and stood at the edge of the proposed structure; the
seaward edge of the proposed structure and looked to the properties
both to the east and to the west and to our eye, your proposed
structure was going to go out farther, in other words project
seaward of those other two properties. We now have this aerial
photograph and it shows the same thing. You are right in that the
shoreline, as you go toward the east, moves out, so there is, when
you are measuring the setbacks, it's deceiving. In other words you
have the true setbacks coming back from the shoreline saying one
thing but when you stand out there doing line of site you can see
the proposed addition is proposed to go out, the structure, farther
than the house on either side, to the east or west, and that's what
this aerial photograph shows also. That's, in my interpretation,
that is in direct violation of our code. Our code says it cannot
project seaward of the two houses on either side, the neighboring
homes on either side.
MR. MCCARTHY: How is that projection, how to you measure that, Dave?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Again, we went out and we stood there and did line
of site, looking both to the east and west. Then we also have this
aerial photograph and we've drawn a line. You are welcome to come
up and look at this aerial photograph. This is the footprint of
your proposed addition and here we have drawn a line between the
structure to the east and west. You can see the footprint exceeds
out further than that line.
MR. MCCARTHY: The consideration you have taken, is it only the
immediate, adjacent neighbor or is it an average of the pattern of
development that is existing within the neighborhood?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: No, we've done immediate adjacent neighbors'
Board of Trustees 36 June 18, 2008
homes. We have been consistent on that, looked at the home
immediately to the east and to the west. Now, there is an
opportunity here, possibly, the current porch structure does not
exceed that line, so if you were to limit your addition expansion
to the size of what you are proposing to take down, then a deck in
front of that, that's something the Board would consider. I know
that's not ideal and not what you are applying for, but I'm saying
it's something that is open for consideration
MR. MCCARTHY: So you are, the way that you interpret and enforce
the code is with an overlying single line on the front of the
existing structure, the front of his deck?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: The structure.
MR. MCCARTHY: The structure itself.
TRUSTEE KING: You may need to go to zoning on this, too.
MR. MCCARTHY: We understand that, yes. Part of the information on
the map that we submitted is for their benefit as well.
TRUSTEE KING: I would suggest go to zoning because -- that's my
suggestion. I would go to zoning first to see if you can do what
you want to do here, because, I don't know.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What I was going to suggest is to table this
application so that the applicant has the opportunity to absorb
what has been said tonight and think about other options and also
take the opportunity to go to zoning also.
MR. MCCARTHY: Always tricky with zoning And Trustees, it's the
chicken and the egg.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I agree 100%
MR. MCCARTHY: I would like to evaluate that, like what you said, in
line with the adjacent properties and be back to you, perhaps with
other submittal in the coming week.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay
MR. MCCARTHY: Thank you.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Any other comments?
TRUSTEE KING: No, it's just a difficult choice who to go to first.
But it's been my experience that if we approve something and you go
to zoning and zoning says no, it's a no. they trump us. So I would
rather get it straightened out there and then come to us.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What I'm looking at, again, does not meet the
requirements of our code. That's why I'm suggesting tabling this
tonight.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I think he has a good point in terms of looking at
those houses to the east.
MR. MCCARTHY: To the west. It's consistent with that development
which was done in 1934 that map was submitted. And the adjacent
property to the east was done in the early '80's and it's over
two-and-a-half times the size, different setbacks, granted at that
point in time.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: That's an interesting point. I don't think we ever
considered that before.
MR. MCCARTHY: How might you have interpreted it if the adjacent
property was vacant.
TRUSTEE GHO$10: That's a good point.
Board of Trustees 37 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay, so if there are no other comments I would
like to make a motion to table this application.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MR. MCCARTHY: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: Number five is still not staked. It wasn't staked
when I went there.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Let me see, there is a letter in here that was
received by our office on June 10.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Do you want to open the hearing first?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We'll open the hearing, then we'll address that.
Philip Anderson on behalf of GARY GUJA requests a Wetland Permit to
construct a docking facility consisting of a 4x16' ramp to a 4x58'
catwalk, elevated a minimum four feet above grade of wetlands, a
3x15' ramp and a 6x20' floating dock with three secure piles plus
one additional 10' round tie-off pile. Located: 372 North Drive,
Mattituck.
Is there anyone here to speak to this application?
MR. ANDERSON: Good evening. Philip Anderson, project manager and
consultant, Southampton, New York. I recently submitted the
certified receipts for the application.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: There is a letter here, I guess from you, that
was received by our office on June 10 and I'm just going to skim
quickly. As you may recall this dock application had been
scheduled for the May public meeting. Neighbors had been notified
however upon inspection of the site the Trustees requested the dock
location be more obviously staked in the field before June 9.
Enclosed are photographs -~ excuse me. In order for the application
to be heard, this has also been done accordingly staked with two
1"x1" labeled and ribbon stakes.
TRUSTEE KING: I didn't see them. Were there any stakes in the
water at end?
MR. ANDERSON: No, I have two stakes --
TRUSTEE KING: We like to see the seaward end where the float is
going to be. We want to see that location staked so we can see
exactly where it is.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We want to see the length going into the creek
not just where it's going to be on the land.
MR. ANDERSON: Also in the photographs are the stakes that were in
place.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: But they are on the shore. We want to see both
ends staked; on the land and water end.
MR. ANDERSON: Has there been an LWRP determination.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Yes, the LWRP is consistent. And CAC supports
the application with the condition the dock extends no further
seaward than neighboring docks and open grate decking is used on
the catwalk. Have you considered open-grated catwalk material?
MR. ANDERSON: What do they mean by open grated? Spaces between the
decking?
Board of Trustees 38 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: It's something we have been using recently,
either fiberglass or plastic.
MR. ANDERSON: I specified in the plan Treks decking or --
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: This is a brand, Thru-Flow instead of slats.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's newer than the treks. It's all plastic.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: The problem is we still don't have a stake at
the end.
MR. ANDERSON: And you would like to see it in line with the
adjacent docks?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No further out than. It can be shorter.
MR. ANDERSON: Because it does line up pretty much with the dock to
the north. I have to see about the dock to the south.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: That's why we need the stake at the farthest
point.
MR. ANDERSON: I'll have the surveyor go out and place the stakes.
TRUSTEE KING: Are there any soundings on there also on the length
of the dock? We'll need soundings also.
MR. ANDERSON: Soundings are on the survey as well as on my plan.
The way we have it, it's good to have unplanned view as well as the
cross-section and on the survey. The float is located at a depth
between two feet at Iow water and four feet. It drops off. It's
on my drawings as well as the survey.
TRUSTEE KING: (Perusing). Where did that float come from? There is
a 6x20' float out in front of the property now. Do you know where
that came from?
MR. ANDERSON: It's remnants of what was out there. The only reason
Mr. Guja didn't take it out is he doesn't have the manpower to move it.
You can see I have my depth measurements. It's here at that
point and here at this point and here at this point. And I have
them here and here and also in the survey. So you can see it
winds, lines up fairly much a little short of the end.
I'm probably a new face to you people. I have been in the
business almost 30 years but most of my work has always been on the
south shore and south fork. I been here a few times before.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: So that's what we would ask, that be staked, and
we'll table it tonight and we'll go out and look at it in July.
MR. ANDERSON: I just want to say it's nice to have that standard so
that docks don't extend further than the adjacent, but that's kind
of predicated on the depth along the shoreline being standard.
That's not always so. So the way that I located the float, you
probably know, the DEC's most recent policy is have at least
two-and-a-half foot depth all the way around the float. That's how
this was located and designed. Of course on the shoreline, your
three foot contour let's say, who knows what it does along the
shoreline. It's not just a straight line,
TRUSTEE KING: Since I've been on the Board we tried to maintain the
feeling of stopping one going out a little further than the other
and the other guy goes a little further.
MR. ANDERSON: And of course docks to the north as well as the one
to the south, built ten, fifteen years ago, and even with the DEC
pretty much, they put their applications in but the docks were
Board of Trustees 39 June 18, 2008
pretty much allowed to be done just about however anybody wanted to
do them.
TRUSTEE KING: The dock to the north is fairly short. It's not long
at all. They have a good size sail boat tied up there. They must
be adequate water there. It's a good size sailboat.
MR. ANDERSON: We are 66 feet from high water and something like 35
feet in length. I think I have several other things marked.
TRUSTEE KING: We need to see it marked.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We'll need it, we'll look at it next month.
MR. ANDERSON: I have several things attached to that. I don't know
if you want all of that.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Yes, you have the images.
MR. ANDERSON: See all of this, these things, this dock that was
there taken out. You have to take it in reference to the float.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We'll look at it next month, because we need
that staked.
TRUSTEE KING: Like I said, we want to see the stakes on the seaward
side of the float. Two stakes.
MR. ANDERSON: Two stakes. But otherwise it seems to be -
TRUSTEE KING: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Jim, the dimensions of the piles and the fact they
are eight feet on center, is that normal for that area?
TRUSTEE KING: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you,
MR. ANDERSON: YES, it's standard construction. Thank you, very
much.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'll make a motion to table this application for
July 3.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.).
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Number six, Costello Marine Contracting on behalf
of RICHARD JOHNSON & PAMELA MAINO requests a Wetland Permit to
construct a 4x10' ramp up to a 4x18' level fixed dock section with
a 3xl 0' seasonal wooden ramp onto a seasonal 5x18' floating dock
secured by two 4"x4" posts. Located: 7617 Soundview Avenue,
Southold.
This description has changed as we have met Mr. Costello in
the field and we downsized it. We do have new plans, and the new
plans reflect the 3x10' ramp on to a 3x27' fixed dock with a 4x8'
end section. So there will be no float at the fixed section.
This is a right-of-way and the dock was moved as far over to
the side as possible. Our attorney reviewed the deeds on the
right-of-way and determined that the people who do have this in
their deed do have the right to go down the right-of-way but it
does not deter a structure to be placed there. And Johnson and
Maino the property. So other people just have the right-of-way.
They don't have ownership.
We don't have LWRP on this. And CAC, I don't see CAC
comments. Here we go. CAC supports the application with the
Board of Trustees 40 June 18, 2008
condition of Thru-Flow decking is used on the fix dock and ramp and
the float and dock is seasonal.
This is an area that it's a great freshwater fishing area and
I think the smaller the structure the better on this. And it's
something that the Trustees are going to be discussing in the
future, maybe making this area an area of no further structures on
the lakes. For now, it's allowed.
So I don't know if we can really move forward with a
determination on this but we'll certainly take comment, it's a
public hearing, because we don't have LWRP.
With that, are there any other comments on this?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes, my name is John Costello. We are the agents for
the Johnson's. And as spoken by Ms. Doherty, we did reduce the
width of the dock, the proposed structure, from four foot to three
foot. We eliminated the floating dock at the suggestion of the
Trustees and made the end a minimal 4x8 end, only that someone
could congregate at the end and be able to enjoy the waterway. The
entire structure has flow-thru decking. And we tried our best that
me minimized the size of the posts, 4x4 posts. I don't know how
else to mitigate. We made every attempt to mitigate all the
concerns of the Trustees. Maybe not the LWRP director, as of yet.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We'll make sure the LWRP receives the revised
changes. That may be part of the reason he didn't get it done
because he knew we were going to be revising them as he comes out
in the field with us.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: It's long past 30 days.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: But this is new. It's been changed.
Significantly. So does he have to review that? I'm confused on that.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: No. When was it submitted for review for the LWRP?
There has to be a review within 30 days on whatever is submitted.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes, it's further than 30 days.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Then we can make our own determination.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. We can move forward on it then.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Even if it's a significantly different application
now?
MS. HULSE: Has it been revised within the 30 days?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No.
MS. HULSE: Then, no. As long as it's past 30 days, it's okay. When
you say it's revised, it's not within the 30 day period. In other
words it's been revised and then 30 days have lapsed, or more.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: No, 30 days has lapsed and then it's been revised.
MS. HULSE: Then I would think it needs review.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's what I understood.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: It lapsed for the first review but now it's been
changed and needs to be reviewed.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll defer to legal counsel. I thought it should
be reviewed in 30 days regardless, then it's been changed since
then, but it should have been reviewed within 30 days, under the
original application.
MS, HULSE: I would agree with that. However I think because it has
been revised substantially that it would trigger a new 30-day
Board of Trustees 41 June 18, 2008
period. That's my assessment.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I'm not arguing, I'm just pointing out I don't know
if that's quite fair. If he made the changes to do the mitigation
that we wanted.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I agree with that. Because I underetood what Lori
is saying.
TRUSTEE KING: I think some of the questions on this were because of
the right-of-way we were not sure whether or not we could even put
it in there. So it may not have been reviewed under LWRP until,
you know, there was a lag there because of the questions on the
rig ht-of-way.
MS. HULSE: I'm not sure what the reason was for the lag. By the
black letter of the law could you preceed, probably, but I don't
know if it's within the spirit of the law.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll take any other comment from the audience?
MR. COSTELLO: The last comment I have to make is everything was
reduced in order to meet the concerns. The original drawing was
significantly larger. This was a reduction to mitigate, basically,
the concerns of the Trustees. Not the LWRP director or -- and if
the right-of-way use has been reviewed by the attorney, that is
certainly one of the things that could be, you should get and do
have, I believe, but one way or the other I think if the LWRP
understands that the Trustees are the ones that wanted it reduced,
and we did, and we are willing to reduce it and the owner is
willing to reduce it, I don't know what else.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Everything you did was upon our request to
mitigate it. So -- sir?
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Yes. My name is John McGlinchey, I reside across
Soundview Avenue from the subject preperty. I have the right of
use question in my mind is what is basically comes down to.
RDE contains the following language, that we have together
with the right of use, a right-of-way over on the right to use the
following described parcel. Said right being in common with others
and subject to reasonable rules and regulations as John Aimeor
(sic) and George Jimior (sic) made from time to time imposed, which
comprise certain 30-foot private roads and a private beach.
The next paragraph in our deed, and I assume in other deeds,
describes the preperty subject to the right-of-way over and the
right to use of in identical terms as those which are contained in
the applicant's deeds in Schedule A for tax lot 14 on which the
applicant's residence stands. And that description of the property
is of tax lot nine, which is the parcel subject to the application
of this construction of various ramp and dock sections and referred
to in both deeds as quote, the private beach.
Simply stated, the applicants have applied for construction on
preperty subject to the right-of-way over and the right of use of
ourselves and others. The right-of-way is not the path. It's the
entirety of that tax lot. The right to use. So it would seem to
me, as a simple homeowner, I'm not an attorney, that it's not just
the access to the water line that is important. It's that the
Board of Trustees 42 June 18, 2008
entire structure is going to be sitting on property subject to our
right to use.
I appreciate the fact that the scale of the project has been
reduced. I think it makes a lot of sense. It does appear, too,
that at your suggestion, that this structure had been moved to the
side somewhat, off of the path, which by the way has been expanded
within the last two years at a minimum. I would say within the
last six months, to tell you the truth. But I don't know exactly,
I'm not there all the time. But moving that over does give us a
little more access to water, but it doesn't address the question of
putting a rather large structure on this land.
If you look at those drawings, I guess, the phragmites are
tight on either side, so even moving it to the side, the structure
still takes up a fair amount of the available access to the water.
I saw the new drawings this evening. John Costello and I
chatted briefly. It's nice to deal with somebody who is willing to
share information even though it's a little adversarial, I
suppose.
I guess what it comes down to is if the proposed ramps and
docks are not clearly designated as for the use of all entitled to
the right-of-way over and the right to use of the private beach, my
wife and I strongly oppose construction. If, however, it is made
clear that the proposed ramps and docks as modified are available
for the use of all entitled to the right-of-way over and the dght
to use of the private beach, we are neutral with respect to their
construction and we would neither support nor oppose this
application. How would you do that? Well, I suppose the
application could be changed somewhat to make it clear that these
structures are not intended only to the owner of the property
because clearly the applicant does own, has the underlying
ownership rights. It's just that lot's of people have the right to
go over it. So I don't want it to go through a whole list of
things that I would suggest that the application, the ways for the
application to be modified to make it clear who has the right to
use these things, but if that was done I would not oppose this
application. And I would not support it. That's my little piece.
I don't know if have you any questions for me but I don't have
any for you. Except, maybe, for counsel. Have I got this straight,
that they are putting it on, they are putting a rather large, what
is it called, a ramp, over land, which I have the right to use as a
private beach? Might it not have at least been polite for them to
make some inquiry? That's other thing that bugs me about this.
Because it's clear, absolutely clear, because they have the
language in their deed that the property on which their house sits
has the right over this private beach. That they know about this.
And there was no attempt to notify us. The only notification was
the little white sign that was placed there Wednesday the 10th.
Most of the people around there, not most, a significant number of
the people in that neighborhood, are only there weekends. Father's
Day weekend in particular, many were not, and here we are with a
meeting now. I mean, you know.
Board of Trustees 43 June 18, 2008
MS. HULSE: Your rights obviously remain in tact.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: So I could walk over that deck?
MS. HULSE: That issue is not for the Trustees to consider.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Whoa. Excuse me?
MS. HULSE: To use the structure, it is not before this Board. It's
not an issue for this Board to consider.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Can I interrupt for a moment. Because this board
just addressed legal counsel's opinion that they had the right to
put a structure there, so I think --
MS. HULSE: The Trustees have a right to approve the structure there
MR. MCGLINCHEY: No, you are misunderstanding my point, I believe.
Somebody reading something before, or a statement early on, Trustee
Doherty, I believe, said that counsel had addressed the fact they
had the right to put a structure there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We have a right to approve a structure.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: You have the right to approve or they have a right
to build? You said they have the right to build.
MS. HULSE: As they have ownership interest in this, they have a
right to apply and the Trustees are within their right to approve
that if they so desire. Your deeds don't preclude the Trustees
from issuing a permit for that structure. My point is to address
your question of who has the right to use that structure is not
before this Board to consider.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Could the Board approve the construction of a fence
around that structure?
MS. HULSE: I'm just going to address what is before the Board at
this time, sir. And I appreciate the fact it's an important issue
for you. I'm just making a point as the attorney for the Board
that it's not for them to consider. They have an application here
that they can approve, legally approve, if they so choose.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Any structure?
MS. HULSE: The structure that is, the application that is on the
agenda this evening.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Thank you, for the clarification. Okay, i'm good,
thank you, very much. I appreciate your time.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Any other comments?
MR. D'AUGUSTA: Yes. My name is Vincent D' Augusta. I, like John,
have deeded rights to the beach and private road. I have been
going down there for a number of years. At one time I even had the
road bulldozed. It got to be a regular hang out for kids to be
done there, so we left it alone. Now when I to go down there, I
have hay bales and plants going across my access to get to the
beach. What was once a dirt path is now pine chips or chips. And
it's getting wider. In fact I was amazed when I got on the
Internet, after seeing those on Monday, that the same piece of
property and the same dock we are talking about is on the market
for sale. With a proposed dock. And in addition to the house.
Obviously the person is putting in for the construction of the dock
is not going to be living there. If he sells the house, someone
else buys the house, same as John, are we going to have access to
the right-of-way? Is anybody going to acknowledge it? As it is
Board of Trustees 44 June 18, 2008
right now, the road itself has been blocked off, We've been
deprived. In order to get to the private road, I have to traverse
his lot.
MS. HULSE: Their deed gives you the right to access, but that issue
is not before the Board. You have to understand. And we
understand, I understand, what your points are. But that issue is
not before this Board to decide. Their only question, they are not
talking about your right to access the right-of-way which, clearly
to me, is in your deed. Their issue is whether the structure is
permittable
MR. D'AUGUSTA: Can I get a copy of the opinion from Southold Town
court? Can I get a copy of your decision?
MS. HULSE: It was an opinion I gave to them verbally, sir.
MR. D'AUGUSTA: If I want to pursue this further, what action would
I have to take?
MS. HULSE: I would suggest hiring counsel. I'm only speaking as a
representative of the Trustees.
MR. D'AUGUSTA: I'm only considering in the future, if I pass the
house on to my children will they have the rights, will it be maintained in
the deed? As it is right now --
MS. HULSE: If your deed is before you then it's pretty clear in your deed.
MR. D'AUGUSTA: I have a deed, ma'am, that goes back to cutting ice
in Gray Pond in order to walk across somebody's property. The right
to do that. And cut firewood.
MS. HULSE: I just want you to understand what the Trustees can
address and can't address.
MR. D'AUGUSTA: You understand our point of view. That's basically
what I'm here for. Thank you for your time.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Any other comments?
(No response.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Any comments from the Board?
TRUSTEE KING: I wish this was simple.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Then it wouldn't be so much fun.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'm stating that I'm not comfortable without
getting an LWRP review.
MS. HULSE: Just to clarify the LWRP issue. In Section D, it says
the coordinator shall require the applicant to submit all completed
applications.
What I glean from that is that it needs to be complete. So
it's to include what you are actually considering. Could you work
within that phraseology to say, okay, 30 days have past? I'm sure
you can. It certainly seems to be to me intended to trigger review
if it's been substantially altered.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Could you give me the letters and what they stand
for?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: LWRP. Local Waterfront Revitalization Program.
MR. MCGLINCHEY: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: All right, hearing no further comment, I'll make a
motion to take the advice of counsel and table this application in
order to get the LWRP review on the revised application.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
Board of Trustees 45 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MR. COSTELLO: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: Number seven, RO Barrett on behalf of SHUI CHING CHEN
requests a Wetland Permit to construct an addition to the existing
dwelling, abandon existing well and cesspool, install a new septic
system and reise grade level to elevations 9.4' and 10.2' when
excavation spoil and top soil is replaced after installation, and
connect to public water service. Located: 7433 Soundview Avenue,
Southold.
Is there anyone here to speak to this application?
MR. BARRATT: Good evening. For the record, my name is Robert
Barrett. As you mentioned, I'm here representing the Chen family.
And I'm ready to answer any questions you might have.
One thing, before we carry on, if I might, I have two guests
with me this evening, Frank Palillo and Dianne Palillo, and they
are very interested in this plot because there is quite a good
chance that they will become the ownere of this plot of land and
this house shortly, and will be the ones actually implementing the
very small imprevement we are looking for.
TRUSTEE KING: I take it they are prospective buyers of the
property? That's my understanding?
MR. BARRATT: Yes, sir. I have been instructed to say that the
contract has been signed, but of course there are stipulations and
the deliberations of this Board are one of them.
TRUSTEE KING: Okay, we went out and looked at it. CAC did not make
an inspection so there is no recommendation made. So they have no
recommendation to make.
MR. BARRA'I-r: Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: I take it any of the filling is going to be done on
the landward side of the house, correct?
MR. BARRATT: Most definitely, sir.
TRUSTEE KING: Nothing on the water side?
MR. BARRATT: No.
TRUSTEE KING: We have a letter in here in support of this from one
of the neighbors. 7617 Soundview Avenue. They are in full support
of the wetland application. I can't read the writing. Looks like
M-A-E-N-O.
MR. BARRATT: Yes, Maeno wrote you a letter and it's being reported
that Helen Belano (sic) also wrote a letter. It's only my word but
I have had expressions of positive interest from Mr. Falk, who
actually lives next door.
TRUSTEE KING: There is another letter in the file here from Helen
Belano in favor of this. So there are two letters in the file in
support of this. I don't think the Board had a problem with
anything but I remember, I was on the Board, we did have a problem
with that dock.
MR. BARRATT: Yes, Sir
TRUSTEE KING: I think, I don't have the old file with me tonight.
I would like to review that.
Board of Trustees 46 June 18, 2008
MR. BARRATT: You are referring to Trustee permit 5216. That was a
permit that was issued to Richard Sansevere (sic), about a decade
ago, and he actually sold the property on. I think the permit might have
still been --
TRUSTEE KING: I don't think the dock conforms to what was
supposedly permitted.
MR. BARRATT: That's correct.
TRUSTEE KING: So we want to, I think now is the time to get that
corrected and bring that dock into compliance with what it is
supposed to be.
I haven't got the old file to look at, but I'm getting older
but I still remember things. I can't remember what I did yesterday
but I remember ten years ago.
MR. BARRATT: I must be in the same situation. I do have that with
me if you want to see it.
TRUSTEE KING: If you have it handy, sure.
MR. BARRATT: Yes, sir
TRUSTEE KING: It was found inconsistent with LVVRP. That's because
it's less than 100 feet away from the water. It's an automatic
inconsistency.
MR. BARRATT: The whole lot is within 100 feet.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Scott also mentioned that it's --
TRUSTEE KING: The proposed addition constitutes more than 25% of
the original structure and it's not reviewable. It's a minor
exempt. That's more coastal erosion language than wetland code,
right? Because there is no mention in the wetland code.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Does he say -- 275-3.
TRUSTEE KING: That's the setback. There is nothing in the code on
percentage of structures
TRUSTEE KING: That's in coastal erosion. 268.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's LWRP. Right. 268-B. LWRP. But when I
talked to him I thought the 25% was referring to the building
department.
TRUSTEE KING: That's LWRP, I guess.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I think it refers to building department also.
MR. BARRATT: Can I help you on that point?
TRUSTEE KING: You can try.
MR. BARRATT: The addition we are looking for is 330 square feet on
a 2,200 square foot home.
TRUSTEE KING: It's just an extension of a dormer, right?
MR. BARRATT: I have a photograph -- not a photograph. I have a
colored --
TRUSTEE KING: 2,200 square feet plus the garage. 3,300 square feet
with the addition,
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Should we get Lori, just to clarify it.
MR. BARRATT: May I approach?
TRUSTEE KING: Sure. What they want to do is extend the dormer on
the upper floor. And this is approximately 300.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We are wondering if the coastal erosion code is
saying this. Is that a Building Department?
TRUSTEE KING: He's indicating it has nothing to do with this here.
Board of Trustees 47 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's 268
MS. HULSE: That's LWRP.
TRUSTEE KING: So they defined less than 25%. It says pursuant to.
MR. BARRATT: We are not changing the footprint at all.
MS. HULSE: I understand that. I'm just curious.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We are just trying to clarify.
TRUSTEE KING: Looking into the language, why it's inconsistent.
It's automatically inconsistent because it's within 100 feet.
That's a given. There is another section here that says if it
constitutes more than 25% construction.
MS. HULSE: I'm going to assume he confused it with coastal erosion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That clarifies that.
MR. BARRA'D': I'll withdraw that.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That clarifies that it's inconsistent because of
the 100 feet.
TRUSTEE KING: I believe so. That's my feeling.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Do you have any drywells indicated on the plan?
TRUSTEE KING: Drywells for roof runoff.
MR. BARRAq-I': No. In the LWRP answers I did say that we would be
willing to include drywells on the corners, as we have done in
other developments.
TRUSTEE KING: You'll have to. When you do these modifications, you
have to meet the new drainage code now. It's not just us, it's the
Building Department will require this also. But we always ask for
the drywells to be shown.
MR. BARRATT: I'm very familiar with it. I have been observing it
for quite some time as it's developed, and I advised the clients
and they have no problem.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We'll need to see them on the plans.
MR. BARRATT: I could add them to the plan and get you a copy.
TRUSTEE KING: On the septic system is this closest one, is that an
expansion pool?
MR. BARRATT: Can I approach?
TRUSTEE KING: Yes.
MR. BARRATT: If it's cross hatched.
TRUSTEE KING: That's the expansion.
MR. BARI*ATT: Yes. I arranged it so that the expansion pool is --
TRUSTEE KING: It's 95 feet. This is 95 for the expansion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: In the field we saw that we like to have it
further out but we saw there is really no room to move it further
back. We are just trying to think if there is any way to rearrange
it so it could be moved further back. Because we know you have
water, county water in there now. So you don't have to worry about
the well.
MR. BARRA-FI': We could switch these two, so that one is back here.
But you know there is only a very limited amount of space and we
are trying to do things to not disturb the local environment.
TRUSTEE KING: Not much room to move here. I think I would rather
see this moved in place of this expansion pool with these two in
line with each other.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: This is the leaching pool
Board of Trustees 48 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: These are active pools. These are the expansions.
This would be a better plan.
MR. BARRATT: There is three expansions. This one, this one and
this one.
TRUSTEE KING: This would be a better plan if you switched this up
to here. Then you have two expansion pools that are closest. We
just can't get them any further but at least that gets the active
ones the furthest away.
MR. BARRA'I-I': That's almost 100 hundred feet.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So far we need drywells, leaders, gutters.
MR. BARRATT: I can get you drawings in 24 hours.
TRUSTEE KING: Actually that puts the active pools over 100 feet.
This is just on the edge. This one gets put up there, that's out
of it. It's just the two expansion pools. I don't think we can do
any more than that.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's good.
MR. BARRA'VI': Very good.
TRUSTEE KING: Any other comments?
(No response.)
Being none, I11 make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to approve the application with
the changes we just discussed. One expansion pool will be moved,
one active pool will be moved landward further and the expansion
pool will be put in its place. There's to be drywells and gutters
to take care of roof runoff.
One of my concerns is the dock. The dock does not conform; I
don't believe it conforms on the permit that was issued about ten
years ago.
TRUSTEE KING: $o, I think, if I remember right, it's supposed to be
a lot narrower, downsized. The previous owner just built what he
wanted to build and we went around and around. In the meantime the
property had been sold and it was never corrected.
MR. BARRATT: They just didn't have the means to go ahead.
TRUSTEE KING: That's an issue.
MR. BARRA'I-r: We worked together in the workshop on docks and at
last month's meeting and again at this meeting, the idea of using
fiberglass mesh or grating has come up and one thought going
through my mind, I'm just strictly an engineer, I'm not an
environmentalist, but I do remember the people from NOAH saying
that hydroblasting the piles out of the ground perhaps did more
harm than good, and how would the Trustees feel about leaving the
front of the dock as it was and having the good part of the
horizontal access surface converted to say fiberglass mesh?
TRUSTEE KING: We could consider it. We could consider it.
MR. BARRATT: Okay, good.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You would have to apply for an amendment and
transfer of that permit. That would have to be done as a separate
action. And you also have to apply for a transfer to the new
Board of Trustees 49 June 18, 2008
owners at that time.
MR. BARRATT: Yes, ma'am.
TRUSTEE KING: The only other thing we like to see is a ten-foot
non-turf buffer along the bulkhead.
MR. BARRATT: The buffer right now is ten feet. The way the DEC
wrote up their permit, they said at least during construction we
had to maintain a 20-foot buffer with of course the standard hay
bale line.
TRUSTEE KING: All right, I didn't think too much about a hay bale
line because there really is no excavation near the water. This is
a DEC requirement, hay bale line in place?
MR. BARRATT: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: We'll put that on the permit also.
MR. BARRATT: It was not a standard requirement. It was a special
condition, so I have to adhere to it.
TRUSTEE KING: I see that. All right. I see that now.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Just to clarify, ail the fill will all be landward
of the house for the septic. Nothing seaward.
MR. BARRATT: The other thing they asked for, which might be
interesting, if you missed it, is because the lot is only about 100
feet deep our construction equipment during the construction
period, which is a relatively short period, will have to be parked
on the lot within 100 feet and they give us a solution though that
problem. They say as long as we lay tarps to pick up any oil or
anything that might be dripping, they are perfectly happy to do
that rather than us going through the horrendous cost of taking the
equipment offsite to some distant, which would be just awful. Of
course we'll adhere to that, too.
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
I'll make a motion to approve the application with the changes to
the septic system we discussed, drywells for the roof runoff and a
ten-foot non-turf buffer along the bulkhead. And we'll do something
with the dock to make it conform to the permit.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: If you want to add that -- do you want to add a
condition that all other permits be transferred?
TRUSTEE KING: You need to transfer the permits. And at that time
we can address the dock situation.
MR. BARRA'I-I': Understood.
TRUSTEE KING: All right. And the inconsistency was because ofthe
100-foot setback. I think we brought it into consistency by having
the drywells for the roof runoff, we have a non-turf buffer, the
cesspools were moved as far landward as we can get them. There is
an expansion pool within our jurisdiction, but the others are
outside. And there is a row of hay bales during construction. So
I think, I would recommend the Board finds this consistent with
LWRP. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
Board of Trustees 50 June 18, 2008
(ALL AYES.)
MR. PALILLO: Sorry, I apologize. If it's not too late to speak, my
name is Frank Palillo. My concern is that I don't think we have
actually addressed the dock problem. I think we just put it off.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's under a separate application and separate
permit so what we said in this approval is that you are to come and
transfer that dock application. You have to apply for a transfer as
a separate issue and at that time we'll address it.
MR. PALILLO: My problem with that though is that the transfer will
come at the time I'm ready to close on this piece of property.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You can't transfer until you own it.
MR. PALILLO: Right. But I can't have a decision from this Board
that is subject to the conditions pertaining to my contract.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You have a current permit for a dock. There is a
current permit for a dock. What is out there is not in concurrence
with that permit. So what we are saying is that permit has to be,
you have to come into conformity with that permit. So regardless
of who owns it, has it to do that.
MR. PALILLO: We gave you the alternative of hopefully putting in
the boards that you would discuss it.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And we'll have to address that separately when it
comes to that permit.
MR. PALILLO: How could I get it to that point before I'm to the
point of transfer, or I can't purchase it.
MS. HULSE: Why not?
MR. PALILLO: Because the condition of this contract is all the
permits are approved.
TRUSTEE KING: You have an approved permit. But the dock does not
meet the standards of that permit.
MR. PALILLO: Unless I misunderstand --
MS. HULSE: You have a permit. You have a valid permit. What you
have out there doesn't conform with the terms of the permit. So at
some point in time, presumably when you request a transfer, you
should request an amendment to that permit or bring the dock into
conformance. It's not going to stop you from closing.
MR. PALILLO: tt is going to stop me from closing. Because this
permit is conditioned upon the dock permit.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You have the dock permit, though.
MR. PALILLO: But it's not correct.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: You have a valid permit. If your contract says
you have to have a valid permit for what is there, you have that.
You have the valid permit. The dock is not constructed to that
permit, though. So you have a valid permit.
TRUSTEE KING: We see this a lot in the older, let's say somebody
has a permit for a 10x20 dock. They sell the property. The new
owner transfers that permit to us. We go and look at it and it's
10x50. So now they have to amend it to try to get what is there or
maybe downsize it a little bit.
MR. PALILLO: I thank you for your patience, because I'm still not
getting it. I apologize. One more time. My contract of sale is
conditioned upon approval of this permit. You approved it tonight
Board of Trustees 51 June 18, 2008
but you have indicated that when I apply for a transfer, which I'm
going to do, from the Chen's, then we'll visit the dock issue again.
TRUSTEE KING: It only concerns the dock and nothing else.
MR. PALILLO: I may still have the same problem. I may wind up
closing on the home and purchasing it and have the Board tell me
reduce the size of the dock now.
TRUSTEE KING: Yes.
MR. PALILLO: That's what I'm trying to avoid.
TRUSTEE KING: You can't avoid that. Unless the present owner
brings that dock into compliance with a permit.
MR. PALILLO: Is it not true the present owner can also file an
application to do the alternative docking?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's something for you to work out in your
contract. It's not before this Board tonight and we can't address
it tonight.
MR. BARRATT: I think, from my point much view, the good thing is
you are sort of saying in non-legal language that you are willing
to honor the previous permit that was issued.
TRUSTEE KING: They have a valid permit, yes.
MR. BARRATT: I was not quite sure because this expires in two
years, you know.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: There is a dock there. They have a valid permit
for a dock. But not the dock that is currently there. And that's
something he has to work out.
MR. PALILLO: Thank you, for your patience.
MR. BARRATT: Thank you, everybody.
TRUSTEE KING: I believe the first owner that we had the problems
with, I believe he was issued a violation for that dock that he
build and nothing was ever done. It was a violation issued on
that. I remember. Lauren just reminded me.
MR. BARRATT: And he sold it on to an innocent buyer.
TRUSTEE KING: He looks worried. It's not a huge problem.
MR. PALILLO: If it results in me having to reduce the size of the
dock, it's a huge problem for me. Thank you, though.
TRUSTEE KING: Okay.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Number eight, B. Laing Associates on behalf of
GEORGE BALDWIN requests a Wetland Permit to install eight feet of
bulkhead on each landward end of the existing bulkhead above AMHW.
Placement of 24 linear feet of gabion baskets landward of AMHW to
provide shoreline stabilization. Located: 1045 Island View Lane,
Greenport.
The Board went out to take a look at this last week, We were
all there. The LWRP find this to be inconsistent because the
proposed action is not in compliance with 275-11 and it is
therefore inconsistent concerning construction and operation
standards. The LWRP report recommends use of vegetative
non-structural measures to manage erosion such as a bio-log design
requiring a non-turf buffer landward of the existing bulkhead.
Let's see, basically, that's it. CAC resolved to support the
wetland application with no other suggestions.
Board of Trustees 52 June 18, 2008
The Board, when we were out in the field, suggested at the
time that as part of this application we allow, put in this
application the phragmites can be cut and maintained and that we
add a ten-foot non-turf buffer along the whole way.
Is there anybody here who would like to address this application?
MR. BONTJE: Yes. My name is Mike Bontje from B. Laing Associates
and I'm here to represent the Baldwin's. With regard to the
vegetative methodology versus the gabion, we deliberately stayed
away from that in this particular case because this area is used by
the homeowner for a lot of small craft to go in and out of the
water. Obviously it's been vegetated for decades and has not
succeeded in arresting the erosion. That was the idea of notching
the gabion and coming across with a three foot basket, then
one-and-a-half and coming back up to a three footer and putting
some wooden decking across there to allow small boats to come in
and out without causing further erosion.
With regard to the ten-foot non-turf before for the entire
length, that would include the existing bulkhead, so the wooden
bulkhead as well as the proposed gabion?
TRUSTEE KING: Yes.
MR. BONTJE: Also, the non-turf buffer, what would you require in
terms of vegetation in that area?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Anything that is native and non-invasive.
TRUSTEE KING: If you left sand or gravel, or vegetation
MR, BONTJE: Native vegetation. Okay that's the extent of my
thoughts for the moment. If you have any further questions of me.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Questions or concerns from the Board?
(No response.)
I don't think the Board had any objections. As a matter of
fact we thought it was a good idea to help reduce the erosion down
there. I don't know how to address the LWRP inconsistency.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Putting the buffer there mitigates it.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: Why was it inconsistent?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: It was suggested we use vegetative non-structural
measures such as bio-logs.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Didn't the applicant say it was vegetated for
years but it was not working. So that attempt has already been
tried, it sounds like.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would like to make a motion we approve the
application of George Baldwin as stated here, knowing that the
vegetative measures to correct the erosion problems there have been
tried and not worked, and we find with the addition of a ten-foot
non-turf buffer along the bulkhead and the gabion baskets as
described mitigates the issues with LWRP and brings it into
consistency.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
Board of Trustees 53 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MS. MOORE: Thank you, for your time.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number nine. En-Consultants on behalf of DANIEL N.
KOHN LIVING TRUST requests a Wetland Permit to construct 164
linear feet of vinyl bulkhead in place of (and 12" higher than)
existing timber bulkhead (including 31' of bulkhead/retaining
walls forming step-down platform and stairs to be replaced inplace
and 12" higher); construct 47 linear feet of vinyl bulkhead on
landward side of existing timber bulkhead to be removed; construct
16' westerly return; remove and replace existing steps, decking
and walkways adjacent to bulkhead (inplace, except 6x55' section of
easterly walkway to be reoriented to align with easterly property
line); backfill area landward of new bulkheading (including
7'x14'x15" concrete step-down to be eliminated) with approximately
20 cubic yards of clean sand fill to be trucked in from an upland
source; and raise existing shed (inplace) approximately 27" onto
newly established grade. Located: 500 Little Peconic Bay Road,
Cutchogue.
This is an application that we had reviewed, we began to
review last month. Just to go over a couple of housekeeping
issues, it was determined to be consistent under the LWRP. It was
reviewed by the CAC and they resolved to support the application
with the condition of the presence of a non-turf buffer is maintained.
We had, last month, reviewed this and we came to a point where
there was a question as to the ownership on the eastern side of the
property. Counsel had requested that the neighbor, the Cavanaugh's,
submit some documentation because they challenged the survey that
had been submitted with the application of the Kohn's.
And the Cavanaugh's had submitted a recorded deed from 1997, which
contains a 1997 survey, and this survey conflicts with the survey
that the Kohn's had submitted with this project and the Kohn survey
was January 22, 2007.
So what we have is a situation here where we just found out,
because this was just submitted on the 16th of June, that there is
a question and a conflict between the two adjoining property owners
as to the property line.
What is interesting to me is I look at this survey submitted
with the application and the property line in question shows
that the corner of the bulkhead appears to extend over to the east
of the property line, and I look at the survey that has been
submitted by the Cavanaugh's and it's just the opposite. It appears the
bulkhead is to the west of the property line. But because we have two
conflicting surveys here and we just received this, I'm not sure that we
can do anything but table this and give the Kohn's, the applicant here,
the opportunity to review this deed that has been submitted. But I'm
welcome to take comments.
MR. HERMAN: Rob Herman, En-Consultants, on behalf of the
applicant. Just one thing, Dave, I want to clarify for the
Board of Trustees 54 June 18, 2008
record. I think it's a little, well, to me there is no conflict
between the two surveys. What is different about the Nathan, Taft,
Corwin map that we submitted is simply that it does reflect the
Cavanaugh and Frank upland piece adjacent to the applicant's. It
does not reflect what Cavanaugh and Frank have claimed as their
underwater piece. And I just want to state for the record, the
only reason for that -
TRUSTEE KING: Correct
MR. HERMAN: (continuing.) Is because the standard surveying
practice is to pull the Suffolk County tax map. They identify all
the adjacent parcels, then they pull all the deeds for that pamel.
Again, what I tried to convey last time, I have no opinion as
to whether the Cavanaugh and Frank own that piece. I just wanted
it to be clear the reason it's not shown on the applicant's survey
is because it is not on the Suffolk County tax map.
So in order to determine whether in fact it is a legally and
privately owned underwater piece as opposed to you owning it as
part of the public is for you to decide and for counsel to decide.
What does show, now I think where the conflict comes in, is to
the extent that our current survey does show the location of the
bulkhead, the corner - I'll make sure I get the direction correct
- the southwesterly corner occurring 1.2 feet to the east of the
property line.
TRUSTEE KING: Southwest or southeast?
MR. HERMAN: Southeast corner. Sorry. So if in fact the Trustees
were to determine, in effect they would agree with the neighbor's
claim, then that very, very small wedge would in fact be not on
your land where you could issue a permit without consent but on
Cavanaugh and Frank's land where past practice of the Board would
require their written consent, which we are inferring is not
forthcoming. Am I doing okay so far?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So far.
MR. HERMAN: So the question then for the Board is really twofold.
Let's assume for the second that the Board is convinced that
Cavanaugh and Frank own this underwater piece. You basically have
two options as I see it. You can either recognize the fact that
this piece, that this has existed like this for three or four
decades, or whatever it is, long prior to their ownership, and has
never before been contested. You've permitted its repair before
and can you, not withstanding that claim, permit us to simply do
the same thing. If you decide you are not comfortable with that
then I think you have no choice but to request we get their written
consent for the plan as currently proposed.
So I would ask what the Board would like to do with that, just
postponing our own, reserving our right for the moment to review
the deed that has been submitted. I guess what I have to ask, is
what is the Board's pleasure. If Mr. Kohn says, okay, they own it,
what is the Board inclined to do, grant us the permit anyway or
request that we seek their permission?
MS. HULSE: You would have to seek their permission.
MR. HERMAN: Okay, then I'll come to the second scenario. As the
Board of Trustees 55 June 18, 2008
Board knows, Jim, especially, in prior cases sometimes where is
there significant marsh, for example, adjacent to a return like
this, where there is not here, but if there were, for example, the
DEC and sometimes this Board is now requiring that the new bulkhead
be constructed landward of the existing bulkhead. So my question
to the Board is can we simply get rid of this issue all together by
proposing rather than replacing 119 feet, replacing only 117 feet
to the point and then constructing the new return on the landward
side of the existing so that we don't even broach this conflict.
TRUSTEE KING: That makes too much sense.
MR. HERMAN: Then the Board is grenting permission for Mr. Kohn to
do everything within his own property and the other issue will sit
where it sits.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: You are reading our minds up here because when you
were done that was the suggestion that Peggy had just leaned over
and said to me and I already thought of, if you were just willing
to move it, reduce it so that it's within.
MR. HERMAN: I'm not even saying to remove it. We're not touching
it. Just build a new return almost in effect as a landward
resheath except we'll have to have this very carefully plotted
out.
For the record, this all to me seems absurd. This condition
has existed for 40 years. So, again, I'm not sure at the end of
the day what is to be gained by forcing us to go through all this.
But it is what it is. So my question is as long as we are
proposing to construct that new section of bulkhead entirely within
the property line as designated on our survey, and that can be
staked in the field, it can be checked by the neighbors, it can be
checked by the Board, but at least that way what we are doing is we
are not even speaking to that issue.
We'll do nothing with it and --
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I agree. And I don't have a problem with that.
What it means is reducing the scope of the project.
MR. HERMAN: Right. I would have to give you revised plans that
would show a slightly different blend and then having it return on
the landward side, which would be completely within Mr. Kohn's rights.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. Yes, sir?
MR. CAVANAUGH: My name is Tom Cavanaugh. For the last ten years
owned the property immediately adjacent and to the east for which a
wetlands permit is being requested. I issued a letter, I guess on
5/19 and raised some concerns. I would like those concerns
reviewed on a line item by line item basis to determine what action
the Trustees will be taking. But before I do that, according to
Chapter 275 of the wetlands and shoreline code this application
consists of three parts. It consists of a bulkhead, walkway and
sheds. All of these are indicated as structures under the wetland
and shoreline code and two of those items, walkways and sheds, are
preexisting non-permitted non-conforming structures.
The only right to rebuild as is, is for the bulkhead as
indicated in Chapter 275. The existing walkways and the shed are
items that need full Trustee review. Except for structures used
Board of Trustees 56 June 18, 2008
for pre-existing and non-permitted and nonconforming structures
cannot be replaced inkind without full review and approval by the
Trustees.
So I would like to look very carefully not only at the
bulkhead, which can be replaced inkind, and the definition in
Chapter 275 means inplace without modifications. This is not being
replaced inkind and inplace. It is being raised 12 inches so it
doesn't fall under the category of an inkind inplace replacement.
And maybe by that definition it should receive a full
administrative review.
I indicated very clearly that I think the existing bulkhead
exceeds my neighbor's riparian rights according to the state
coastal management by being built on land that is presently not
under the ownership of my neighbor.
I also, as requested, submitted a certified deed by the town
indicating my ownership of the land underwater, for which part of
that bulkhead is currently located. And I would like to review the
point indicated in my letter of 5/19 and understand that if this
application will be approved exactly what is the Trustees course of
action under each of the points I enumerated.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Was this not gone over in the last hearing?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Yes.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I don't think we need to go through all that on the
record. I think we've already done that. We had the opening of
the hearing last month.
MR. CAVANAUGH: I don't think we fully came to a conclusion because
there were options put out there and they were not defined. I'll be
very specific.
MS. HULSE: Can I just ask for a clarification on something you just
mentioned. Were you consenting to a bulkhead inkind/inplace? Did
you just say that?
MR. CAVANAUGH: No, I did not say that. What I said --
MS. HULSE: I though I heard that. I'm sorry.
MR. CAVANAUGH: What I said, under Chapter 275 the only thing the
Trustees can approve is a bulkhead inplace and inkind.
MS. HULSE: But you were consenting to that.
MR. CAVANAUGH: I was not.
TRUSTEE KING: That's not necessarily true. We've approved
bulkheads that have been, if it's physically impossible to put them
in place, we've allowed them --.
MR. CAVANAUGH: If it's located seaward, but not a change in
elevation. Not according to your current wetland standards.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And I believe in the wetland standards it also
says up to the discretion of the Board.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: And we have allowed changes in elevation on
bulkheads.
MR. CAVANAUGH: I understand there is precedent.
MS. HULSE: I think it's moot because obviously there is an
ownership question. I thought there was a comment made toward
that, so.
MR. CAVANAUGH: In your comments on the review the proposal, the
Board of Trustees 57 June 18, 2008
proposed action has not been reviewed pursuant to section 268.3 and
is not inkind replacement but is up to 12 inches higher than the
existing bulkhead with a new 16' vinyl return. So even in your
review you are acknowledging it's not inplace/inkind.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: The LWRP found this consistent.
MS. HULSE: It was reviewed under Chapter 268 and it was found to be
consistent, Mr. Cavanaugh.
MR. CAVANAUGH: That's not the documentation in the file. I'm
quoting from the file. The proposed action has been reviewed
pursuant to 268.3 and is not inkind replacement but is up to 12
inches higher than existing bulkhead with a new 16-foot vinyl
return. That's in the file and in the review. It's not my
statement. And the file is public record.
MS. HULSE: Okay, I'm just commenting that I thought the review for
LWRP is determined consistent. It was found to be consistent.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I have here, May 7, 2008, review of the LWRP
performed by Scott Hilary, and it says proposed action is
consistent with LWRP standards and is therefore consistent with the
LWRP. So that's what we have right here in the file.
MR. CAVANAUGH: Okay. I'll Xerox the part of the file and send it
to your attention where it conflicts with that statement.
MS. HULSE: Would you like to see it? You could take a look at it.
MR. CAVANAUGH: Yes, I would.
MR. HERMAN: Can I interject. I think when we filed the application
there was a question whether it was exempt. So I think the
clarification that it's not inkind inplace and, again, just the
fact it's vinyl rather than timber makes it not inkind/inplace.
There is almost nothing this Board sees anymore that is
inkind/inplace because anything inkind would no longer be
consistent with the code.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct.
MR. HERMAN: So Scott probably notes that and then makes a
consistency determination, which in this is consistent. So let's
move on.
MR. CAVANAUGH: The preference would be we read the code instead of
making up interpretations that are not in the code. Only inplace
replacement of existing functional bulkheads as defined is section
275.2 is permitted. Inkind replacement relates to position and
dimensions and does not necessarily require or allow use of the
same material. So the question of vinyl is covered under that
section of Chapter 275.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Again, if you would like to see this document that
I have here in front me, you are welcome to.
MR. CAVANAUGH: I would.
MR. HERMAN: And for the second time, we didn't apply for
inkind/inplace replacement. We are just wasting time. It's an
inplace replacement which has been determined consistent with LWRP.
MR. CAVANAUGH: It's not inplace. It's 12-inches higher. Let's
talk about semantics here.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: If you want to look at that and give it back to me,
then step back to the microphone, please.
Board of Trustees 58 June 18, 2008
MR. CAVANAUGH: (Perusing.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Was that it, sir?.
MR. CAVANAUGH: No, it's not. The application verbiage refers to
inplace.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I agree that we want to move this along, so please
finish up your comments.
MR. CAVANAUGH: Okay. The existing shed requested to be maintained
is less than six feet from the water. I consider it to be an
eyesore and I consider it does not correspond to the LWRP. I think
it violates policy number three, enhance visual quality and protect
scenic resoumes. I request it be removed as a use that is not
water related. And if it could definitely be raised 27 inches, it
could easily be moved to a point where it's not six feet away from
the water's edge.
In regard to a walkway that is scheduled to be re-oriented to
be on the property line, I have objections in terms of maintaining
the property if the walkway is re-oriented. The application calls
for hay bales to be put in place, which is inconsistent and not
feasible from a construction standpoint if that walkway is located
to the property line.
There was conversations about maintaining the existing
location of that walkway but again nothing definitive was
established as to whether that was going to be a decision of the
Trustees or not. So I have three concerns.
i have a concern about parts of the piles and bulkhead being
on land that I cleady own under title. I have a concern about
perpetuating what would be a non-conforming condition of the shed
and making the condition worse by raising it 27 inches and; I have
a concern about another nonconforming structure which is a walkway
to-orientating that walkway to the property line, which would cause
me an inconvenience and I don't find acceptable.
So when you do make a ruling and you do proceed, I would like
to know how specifically those issues are going to be addressed and
how that language will be put in the permit application to
safeguard my personal rights in regard to my property rights.
Thank you.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. is there anybody else who would like to
comment on this application?
MR. HERMAN: Again, Rob Herman, just to respond to the comments,
briefly. We did discuss at the last hearing that based on Mr. Cavanaugh's
concern about the walkway being moved closer to his
property line that we would modify the plans to simply replace the
walkway in place, where it is.
Just for the record, the shed is not six feet from the
bulkhead. The width of the step down platform is six feet. That
may be what Mr. Cavanaugh is looking at. The pre-existing shed,
legally preexisting shed, is 12 feet from the bulkhead and will
remain in that same location.
We have now also offered to eliminate from the proposed work
or from the application, I should say, any proposed work that would
be over the land that Mr. Cavanaugh has submitted a deed showing
Board of Trustees 59 June 18, 2008
ownership for. And again, the application, I think there is some
confusion. The Trustees are not limited to approve things that are
inkind and inplace. It has to be inkind/inplace in order to be
exempt from Chapter 268 review. This was not except from Chapter
268 review. It was reviewed and it was found consistent. Trustee
Bergen has the document in his hands.
As far as this being different than being exactly inkind
because it's being elevated, et cetera, so too is Mr. Cavanaugh's
application that was approved by this Board to raise the elevation
of his bulkhead, not exactly inkind/inplace for that reason.
So, again, we have not proposed inkind/inplace for that
reason. So again, we have not proposed inkind/inplace, just
inplace, raising, et cetera, the rest of the details. All the
other comments we discussed last month, we are on the record for
our response, so I won't respond any further.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you. Anybody else from the audience have any
comments on this application?
(No response.)
Well, last month at the hearing we covered many of the issues
that have already been brought up tonight. We have done a full
review of this application and the only part of this application
that is left right now outstanding is, in my mind to be determined,
is the length of this bulkhead. It was originally proposed as 164
and what now have to determine is how farwe reduce that to be sure
that it's not extending over on to what Mr. Cavanaugh states is his property
MR. HERMAN: Well, the significant component to that footage is the
119 feet that is shown across the front. If you'll notice on the survey it shows
from monument to monument is 117 and I think point 32.3. So we would
reduce plus or minus '119 feet to plus or minus 117 feet, just to make sure we
are within the property line, and then would extend the return landward at that
point and just an estimation following the property line, probably about a
15-foot return inside the property line. We show it as 14 now. That
length will probably stay the same.
So it would probably be an overall reduction of two feet in
order to stay off of the land that is in question.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So the return then is --
MR. HERMAN: Would be constructed on the landward side of the
property line.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Plus or minus 14 feet.
MR. HERMAN: Correct. And the front would be plus or minus 117.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Okay.
MR. HERMAN: And we had also talked about expanding the buffer on
the west side to match up with the new return that is proposed over
there on that arc, which we indicated last month that Mr. Kohn had
no problem with.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: To go over a couple of notes from last month, any
pipes coming out from the bulkhead, I believe there was a pipe
there, to be eliminated. Continue the buffer as you just referred
to. The use of non-treated material for the deck. The spacing of
approximately 3/8ths of an inch spacing on that deck. We were
going to add the flag pole in to the permit because the flag pole
Board of Trustees 60 June 18, 2008
was not on the description. And then if you decide to eliminate
the flag pole, you can do that, but at least it's there in the
permit. I believe that covered it.
Am them any other comments from the Board?
(No response.)
Then what I would like to do is make a motion to close this public
hearing.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What I would like to do is make a motion to approve
this application, number nine, Eh-Consultants on behalf of Daniel
Kohn Living Trust as described with one change, that the 119 foot
length of bulkhead on the seaward side of the property will be
reduced to 117 foot plus or minus, which will bring it inside the
property line as per both surveys.
TRUSTEE KING: The walkway will suffice?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: The walkway to be replaced where its currant
location is inplace. Any drainage pipes to be eliminated; the
continuation of the buffer along the return that's on the western
side of the pre perry; the use of non-receipted material on the
decking; the spacing to be 3/4ths of an inch and include the flag
pole in on this description.
And I believe that's it. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE KING: Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MR. HERMAN: Thank you.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Number ten, En-Consultants on behalf of STRONG'S
MARINE, INC., requests a Wetland Permit to construct approximately
344 linear feet of vinyl bulkhead in place of existing timber bulkhead; remove
4' and 31' northerly sections of existing timber bulkhead and construct 30' of
new vinyl bulkhead landward thereof (excavate approximately 20 cubic yards
of material from between old and new walls to a depth of-2'ALW);
maintenance dredge (to a maximum depth of-5' ALW) approximately 390
cubic yards of spoil from area up to 20' off bulkhead; reuse
approximately 75 cubic yards excavated/spoil material as backfill
and truck remaining 335 cubic yards of material offsite to an
approved upland source; reconstruct platforms and ramps attached to
bulkhead; and replace/upgrade existing fuel tank and pumps with 6k
gasoline tank and 2.5k diesel tank. Located: 2402 Camp Mineola
Road, Mattituck.
Is there anyone hem who would like to speak for this application?
MR. HERMAN: Rob Herman, En-Consultants, on behalf of Strong's
Marine. Jeff Strong is also hem and so is Ryan Strong.
It should be pretty straight forward application. This is in
effect a continuation of bulkhead replacement work the Board has
approved in the past. I in fact picks up at the existing vinyl
bulkhead previously approved by the Board and continues to the
north toward the entrance parking lot.
The other component to this, originally Jeff was going to
Board of Trustees 61 June 18, 2008
file, I think we can do these fuel tank replacements as
administrative permits but since we were coming in for the
bulkhead, we added it to this application, and I talked with the
engineer to make sure we were showing hay bales around the work
site when the fuel tank work was done. I don't show that work on
my play plan but we submitted a site plan by Sea Level Mapping that
identifies the location of the fuel pumps and then shows in detail
where the pumps are going to be replaced.
If the Board has any questions, I'm here to answer them. I'll
note that there is a narrow gravel area that serves both as a
walkway and also contains some plantings that is on the landward
side of the bulkhead. That will be maintained and reestablished as
it is now between the bulkhead and parking lot.
I guess the only really out of the ordinary part to it is just
on that most northerly corner as we sometimes talk about, we'll
take that sort of odd jog out of the bulkhead and run it on a straight line.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: CAC supports the application with the condition
that the tanks are enclosed in a concrete large enough to told the
volume of both tanks, which I see it is.
LWRP has reviewed it as exempt. It does go on to ask for some
best management practices, which I think you've already mentioned.
If the proposed actions are approved, to further LWRP policies we
ask for a silt fence and hay bales, which you already have on your
survey. Installation of the silt boom, was that considered during
replacement the vinyl bulkhead?
MR. HERMAN: Yes, I think you could probably do that with the
dredging. I think they've done that in the past. I did forget to
mention the maintenance dredging in the area of the float so we'll
make them employ a silt boom just to keep the -- it is a marina but
there is obviously a lot of wetlands in Strong's so and they want
to contain that. So that would be an assumed part of the permit.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'm just skimming the LWRP. All intertidal
construction and excavation required installation of silt boom that
will retain all suspended sediments within the immediate project area.
Is there anyone else here who would like to make a comment on
this application?
(No response.)
Any Board members' comments?
(No response.)
Field notes ask for specs on fuel tanks.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Scott reviewed them and got them from the site
plan so.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: So we'll ignore that.
MR. HERMAN: If you want I can give you a much more detailed
engineering plan that was submitted to the Health Department, but
it was --
TRUSTEE KING: Are these above ground tanks?
MR. STRONG: Jeff Strong, from Strong's. The whole purpose of
replacing the tanks is they are single wall fiberglass tanks
currently and Suffolk County as of 2010 is mandating that we
eliminate them or replace them with double wall fiberglass tanks.
Board of Trustees 62 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: I didn't think they are letting you put anything
undergreund anymore. But it has to be double wall?
MS. STRONG: Yes, the choice is either upland, which,
envirenmentally, you know, as you know, it's all trade office, so
we looked at that. Undergreund is more expensive but we think
because it's closer to where it's used, it's prebably safer and
better for space.
The only thing I want to clarify as a question. You said the
CAC, it was going to be surreunded by cement.
TRUSTEE KING: They were thinking above greund and going areund it
MR. STRONG: In this with the double wall tank, that's the whole
purpose of the double wall that surrounds it.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Who is doing the tank work?
MR. STRONG: We haven't gotten that far yet.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'll make a motion, if there are no further
comments frem the Board or audience, I'll make a motion to close
the hearing.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I'll make a motion to appreve the application as
stated for Streng's Marina.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Eh-Consultants on behalf of ANNE RENGANESCHI
requests a Wetland Permit to construct approximately 112 linear
feet of vinyl bulkhead in place of existing timber bulkhead and
backfill with appreximately 25 cubic yards clean sand from an
approved upland source. Located: 2005 Westview Drive, Mattituck.
We looked at this the other day. It is basically a streight
forward application. It's attached to other bulkheads on either
side. Everything is in a streight line and it is exempt from LWRP.
And CAC supports it with a 12-foot non-turf buffer, and the
bulkhead aligns with neighboring preperty on both sides and
provisions made for public access.
There is a dock out there but there is really, you can't walk
along the foreshore there. At Iow tide there is some sand but at
high tide there is not, and nobody really walks along there.
Is there anyone here to speak on behalf of this?
MR. HERMAN: Rob Herman, En-Consultants, on behalf of the
applicant.
I don't have anything to add beyond what Jill has said except
that just usually the Board's prectice is about ten-foot non-turf
buffer for land that is essentially that narrew. I mean there is
actually quite a bit of landscaping back there already. There is
not all that much lawn. $o if we could just limit it to the
standard ten feet, which also falls right in to where that catwalk
is, that would be agreeable.
TRUSTEE KING: That's what I have.
Board of Trustees 63 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Any other comments?
(No response.)
Hearing none, I'll close the public hearing.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll make a motion to approve the application of
En-Consultants on behalf of Anne Renganeschi as submitted with a
condition of ten-foot non-turf buffer. And also, is there any
reason to maybe use a silt boom there during construction; do you think?
MR. HERMAN: Actually, what I want to mention, no. And the reason
why is I do have a mistake on the plan that I want to correct and
give to the Board. There is beach there and at Iow tide and I
think, on the plan that you have I showed high and Iow water
against the bulkhead. There is actually almost 40 feet of beach
there at Iow tide. That's when the contractor would really be
doing the work. And the reason that error occurred is I just was
sloppy on the cross view. I showed a two-and-a-half foot tidal
range instead of five feet. So I already corrected it on the plan,
I just don't have stamped copies to give you. But I'll submit them
to Lauren.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'm familiar with the area.
MR. HERMAN: I don't think they are working at high tide, so the
silt boom wouldn't -- it's not an area where they are pumping with the tide up.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: So if I put a condition the work to be done at Iow
tide, would that be a problem?
MR. HERMAN: I doubt it. You might want to stipulate if they work
during high tide they need to employee a silt boom.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll add that. Work to be done at high tide needs
a silt boom. That's my motion. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE KING: Second. All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: Number twelve, Patricia Moore on behalf of JOSEPH &
JUNE IAVARONE requests a Wetland Permit to demolish the existing
dwelling, construct new dwelling 75' from the bulkhead and install
a new sanitary system more than 100' from the bulkhead. Located:
405 Woods Lane, Peconic.
Is there anyone here to speak on behalf of this application?
MS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. I have Mr. lavarone here with me
today. If there are any questions I can't address, I'll defer to him.
I want to give you, just very briefly and quickly, because of the
storm, a little bit of history here. The Board approved a
renovation and addition, significant addition to the house, that
the house is, the existing house, is about 25 feet from the
bulkhead. That was approved in 2006. Thereafter we went to the
Zoning Board and at the hearing a group of neighbors came in and
raised objections to our proposal. My client who, at that time had
been debating between demolishing the existing, trying his best to
keep it come making additions or demolishing is building new, the
neighbors kind of pushed him over the edge on the decision and he
Board of Trustees 64 June 18, 2008
ultimately withdrew his Zoning Board application, made the house
conforming at 75 feet from the bulkhead. Therefore, not
necessitating any variances. And we went to the DEC. We revised
our application to the DEC because it was a demolition of the old
house and a reconstruction of the house at 75 feet from the
bulkhead. We got that approval. The Health Department has
approved our sanitary system which is, as you point out, more than
100 feet away from the bulkhead. It's a brand new sanitary system,
all conforming, and the Health Department is just waiting for a
permit or a letter, either a letter of non-jurisdiction from this
board or a permit that authorizes them to then release the Health
Department application because of the demolition of the house.
So we are here before you now because we want to demolish the
existing house, which is a non-conforming structure and build a
conforming structure. Again, zoning requires to us build 75 feet
from the bulkhead. Your jurisdiction obviously is within 100
feet. But as far as our plans, we have incorporated the DEC
conditions, which is a ten-foot non-turf buffer, hay bales on the
landward side of the non-turf buffer during construction. The
sanitary system that is a conforming system, properly constructed
with groundwater elevations, abandoning the existing system when
you are constructing the new system. Providing for drywells to
cover all roof runoff issues.
So we are here before you with a significantly conforming
application. Again, the demolition of the existing house,
obviously we have to get your permission. But the Building
Department won't allow us to keep the old house and build a new
one. So, I'm here to answer any questions you have, but I did want
you to understand the history here because I did see the same group
of neighbors that objected at the Zoning Board hearing here tonight
and I want you to understand what prompted this whole new application..
TRUSTEE KING: We have a letter in the file here from a Dianne and
William Douglas. They list three concerns. They are opposed to
this construction.
MS. MOORE: The Douglas' are exactly to the east, Their house is
about 15 feet from the bulkhead. Their house is the one that you
see, again, to the east, that has the garage with living space with
no CO for living space. It essentially has two dwelling on the
property and has objected to our application, so. For the record.
TRUSTEE KING: I'm not going read the whole thing into the record.
MS. MOORE: That's fine. They are here and I would not be surprised
if they speak.
TRUSTEE KING: We'll just enter it into the record.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: This letter, for your information, was forwarded
to the Building Department because a lot of the concerns should be
addressed in the Building Department and are not in our jurisdiction.
TRUSTEE KING: I'm just looking, on 268, he's got the setback from
the proposed residence is 70 feet from the bulkhead as measured on
the survey and therefore the proposed action may require a variance
from the Zoning Board of Appeals.
MS. MOORE: Actually it's 75 feet.
Board of Trustees 65 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: I'm scaling it off here and I'm getting 75 feet.
MS. MOORE: We had it done by the surveyor on the plans
TRUSTEE KING: That's what I scaled it offto, so. It's exactly 75 feet.
MS. MOORE: Exactly, yes.
TRUSTEE KING: So that, the 70 feet is an error.
MS. MOORE: Yes.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And that's for the Building Department to
determine, anyway.
MS. MOORE: What would happen IS during post construction of the
foundation, we have to provide a foundation plan and the surveyor
will have to certify it, so be sure you are at 75 feet.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And the septic?
TRUSTEE KING: The septic is out of our jurisdiction.
MS. MOORE: The septic, I originally asked for letter of
non-jurisdiction. We kind of wrapped it up into this. So that's
fine. But it does hold up the sanitary approval.
TRUSTEE KING: It's 150 feet. It's well out of our jurisdiction.
MS. MOORE: And I would point out that the sanitary system was
placed more than 150 feet from the only well or, the well on the
Douglas property. Part of the design of the sanitary system was to
make sure that we were compliant with the well. Even though there
is public water in the street, Mr. Douglas has chosen not to
connect to public water, so our sanitary system is designed around
that well.
TRUSTEE KING: Do you know where the old sanitary is, Pat?
MS. MOORE: Yes.
TRUSTEE KING: We would like to see that abandoned and filled.
MS. MOORE: The Health Department mandates it.
MR. IAVARONE: Joseph lavarone. Basically as you are looking at the
house, the old house, it's closer to the Lutzer's (sic) side of the
property, probably about ten feet from the property line, and I
would judge about 20, probably closer here, about 20 to 30 feet
from the bulkhead.
TRUSTEE KING: CAC resolved to support the application. CAC
supports the application with the following conditions. 20-foot
non-turf buffer, drywells and gutters to contain roof runoff; the
old cesspool pool is abandoned; the driveway is relocated it the
left side of the property in order to avoid removal of trees and
the driveway is pervious and; the removal of trees above eight
inches DBH. What does DBH stand for?.
MS. MOORE: Caliber. Diameter of caliber.
TRUSTEE KING: Diameter at breast height.
MS. MOORE: I would just point out that the DEC, just so you
understand, I submitted the DEC permit, I think, for your records.
The DEC has required a pervious driveway. The DEC, approved
materials and no CCA, the oil base products. It will be a pebble
driveway
TRUSTEE KING: Bluestone, something like that?
MS. MOORE: Yes, bluestone or pebble.
As far as the non-turf buffer, the DEC recommends a ten-foot
non-turf. The area is already non-turf because it's sandy so.
Board of Trustees 66 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: In the field notes we have 20-foot non-turf buffer.
MS. MOORE: Well --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's what we would like to see.
MS. MOORE: The DEC felt ten feet was adequate.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And we feel 20 feet is.
TRUSTEE KING: Do I hear 157
MR. IAVARONE: Can we get 15? I'll compromise. I'm very happy with
that.
TRUSTEE KING: We'll stay with the 20. Sorry, we'll stay with the
20 feet. You can do plantings or something. Just no turf
MS. MOORE: Just no sod, grass.
TRUSTEE KING: What else? The inconsistency is basically because
it's less than 100 feet. When you look at the old house and how
close it is to the bulkhead and look at the septic system and how
close it is to the water. Now, the whole house is being moved
landward quite a bit. The septic system is entirely out of our
jurisdiction. We are getting a 20-foot non-turf buffer in there.
With all these things it brings it into consistency with the LWRP.
That would be my recommendation on that end of it.
Are there any other comments on this? From the Board?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Comments from the audience.
MS. DOUGLAS: Hi, my name is Dianne Douglas. This is my husband
Bill. It seems we have been a little misrepresented tonight. I
don't know. But anyway, we live directly next door to the
lavarone's. We've owned property on the north fork for the last 17
years. We lived in the current house for the last seven years.
Almost seven years.
What we are asking for tonight is that you make, I guess, a
difficult decision and balance our property rights and the
neighbors' property rights with the lavarone's legitimate right to
improve their property. We don't have a problem at all with that.
We do have a worry and a concern about Richmond Creek and it's been
designate as you know, I'm sure, as a critical environmental area.
And it's fragile and precious.
It seems to us based on this difficult drawing that the
proposed house is 5,000 square feet. That's a really, really big
house on that property, in that neighborhood. And it will be less
than, you know, it will be less than 100 feet from the water, and
it's situated in a flood zone. So they'll have to take down a lot
of trees. I think a lot of things will change as a result of this
building. Again, we don't have a problem with them building a
house. That's fine, or the demolition. But something that is
smaller. We are concerned about runoff, about the amount and
velocity of runoff that will be really be altered by this huge
footprint. The existing house is about a thousand square feet,
maybe a little more, and it seems the tear down and the
construction of this larger house, will change the patterns, the
runoff patterns and I guess the elevation, I'm not an engineer, but
I guess the elevation of the whole property and contours and so on.
We are wondering whether there has been a soil test to
determine whether drainage is possible on this, given that amount
Board of Trustees 67 June 18, 2008
of structure. I understand that two inches of rainfall creates
3,700 gallons of water on a roof that is 3,000 square feet. 3,700
gallons, where does that go? It has to go into the creek, I think,
in part. Again, I'm not an engineer. But it seems to make sense.
And I think it may go into the adjacent properties.
I think the property to the other side, I think the lavarone
property slopes down a bit. Again, I'm not sure about the
elevations but I think that's true. The existing vegetation will
be removed. The old Oak forest will be destroyed and I think this
will substantially change the character of the neighborhood. In
addition to opposing a threat will to Richmond Creek.
As I said, we have well water. We enjoy. It's clean, we get
it tested once a year. We did not want another bill, frankly, so
we kept our well water. The other thing we are concerned is the
precedent this sets. You let one mansion go up, does this mean
every time somebody on Richmond Creek, which I think is different
than lot's of other areas here, every time someone comes along and
make this kind of proposal, they'll tear down a modest house and
build a mansion in its place. That's our worry.
It seems that it's too much activity and it's too close to the
creek. So we urge the Trustees to see if you can scale down the
scope of this project. We also would ask that the lavarone's plant
privacy trees between our two properties. We would be happy to
participate in the cost of that. I do not, we don't want to be
contentious at all. We don't want to fight or anything like that.
We are neighbors. I really value that. I think we are all stewards
of the environment. The lavarone's are out there fishing all the
time. The kids are crabbing. We are out raising oysters at the
end of our dock. We don't want to do anything but enjoy the creek
and protect it as much as we can.
So I hope we can develop a plan that adequately addresses, I
think, their legitimate needs and our legitimate needs, and we hope
that it will be something that is in the best interest of
preserving Richmond Creek overall. I think that's all we have to
say. Thank you, very much.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I want to address some of your comments, and I
think Jill is talking about it right now. The town does now have a
drainage code that any building or construction that is done, they
must maintain their runoff. I mean it's certain come to the
forefront of many townships that this is a problem and our Town
Code now requires that they do.
And another comment I want to make, I don't know, I'm speaking for
myself, but it is very frustrating, and taking nothing away from
your family and your home but having lived here and seeing small
homes that are built up as huge and as tremendously as they are, we
have some restrictions and some restraints in the town but in my
opinion we don't have enough. And I think it is a shame that these
small parcels are having these huge buildings. But we don't have
the legislation now and that's something that possibly needs to be
worked on further.
MS. DOUGLAS: Is the house going to be 5,000 square feet?
Board of Trustees 68 June 18, 2008
(Inaudible. Audience members speaking en masse.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Time out. Time out.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: If you have any comments, please address the
Board.
MS. DOUGLAS: There aren't any amhitectural plans. We went to read
the record and all that was available is this.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We don't require architectural plans.
MS. DOUGLAS: I know that. It looks to me to be 5,000 square feet,
the bedrooms, you know.
MR. IAVARONE: May I address the Board?
TRUSTEE KING: Sure.
MR. IAVARONE: And I would like to also address my neighbors as
well. First of all, I have been living at 405 Wood Lane with my
family, four children, my wife, six of us, for close to 15 years.
I've raised my family there, I'm a part of the community. I have
brothers cousins, uncles out here. I love Richmond Creek. I love
where I am. I could have chosen to move but I decided to stay at
405 Wood Lane.
When we constructed the original house I wanted to keep the
original character of it. T I tried to build it where it was and we
came across some opposition, then I opted to take this as a
secondary plan.
As far as the house and problems addressed by my neighbors,
the Douglas', I wish they would have asked me these questions and I
could have answered them. Maybe we would not have gotten to this
point. I would have gladly showed them the plans. I showed them
the plans for the first house before we even started. The house is
3,400 square feet of living space and garage. I can document that if
you like. Again, this is on the record and I could show you
anything you can like as far as plans. There will be seven
drywells for the runoff as per the town. Supposedly, that's more
than at adequate. As far as tree removal, I'm only taking down
whatever trees need to be taken down to build the structure. I
want to keep the integrity of the property. I love the wooden
environment. This is something I want to keep. You have my word
I'll only take down what I have to take down for construction
purposes. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. I'll take
down what has to get taken down. As far as privacy trees, sharing
the expense, I'm more than happy to do that.
Basically I want to stay here for a long time. This is a
house that I want to pass down to my next generation. I'm building
it with the anticipation of being able to have my grandchildren
over. I want to retire at this home. This is where I'm at with
this. I want to be part of the community. That's all I have to
say. Thank you, very much.
TRUSTEE KING: It's a two-story home, isn't it?
MR. IAVARONE: Yes, but it's not completely finished. Just part of
it. It's a lot of roof line.
MR. PENN: My name is Charles Penn and my wife and I just purchased
the house less than a month ago, I think, on Richmond Creek, at 775
Wood Lane and we've had the pleasure of appreciating the bounty of
Board of Trustees 69 June 18, 2008
Richmond Creek and the pristine environment there, and we wanted to
live there and were lucky enough to find this house. And I'm glad
to hear, because I would like to be good neighbors with the
lavarone's and the Douglas' and everybody else on the creek. My
concern is I have the same concerns that Dianne expressed, about
runoff and the character of the neighborhood, and I'm somewhat
encouraged to hear that the house is not what I had expected it was
going to be. But I would like to, just in support of what Dianne
said, t'm very concerned about the pristine nature of the creek and
the neighborhood and I would like it to remain that way. And I'm
sure that you will take that into consideration in whatever
decisions you make. Thank you.
MS. VACCARI: My name is Christine Vaccari. I live at 2470 Wells
Road. I'm a full-time resident here. I live here with my husband
and our 11-year old daughter. We love Richmond Creek. We use the
creek and we are concerned about this precious body of water. We
had a neighbor who moved out a couple of houses down because there
was so much activity on the creek and the neighbors became like
just so boisterous on the creek that they said that the quietness
and the serenity of the creek was being upset. And I guess when I
heard that this home was being built, I'm visualizing it being very
big and just a lot of people fitting into this home and just making
a lot of noise and of course the other things, as Dianne mentioned,
the runoff, and you know, contaminating the creek with the runoff,
and basically our main concern is the drainage and preserving the
creek. Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: Thank you anybody else?
MR. REILLY: 2260 Skunk Lane, Cutchogue. How do you know what the
environmental impact a house of that size will be on this
environment. This is Richmond Creek. Nothing like that is on
Richmond Creek. What tests have been made? What statements, what
environmental impact studies have been done? And for one thing,
when you talk about changing the character, not just the
environmental character but the built character of the
neighborhood, this will significantly alter the built character of
the neighborhood. This is your history. I'm not going to be
around four generations hence, but your grandchildren will be and
your great-grandchildren will be. So you can have Cutchogue or you
can have Commack. This is the beginning of the slippery slope
toward the McMansions. That's your decision. Think about it.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: As Peggy stated before, our code as it is now does
not have enough restrictions on the size. A lot of that is
determined by the Building Department. The Building Code, I should say.
MS. REILLY: Good evening, my name is Cumming Reilly, I'm wife of
Charles Reilly, I live at 2260 Skunk Lane, Cutchogue, not very far
from the Douglas' house.
I'm happy to hear and I didn't plan to speak, but in response
to the Trustee's comment about no current codes restricting the
establishment of big houses on small properties. I would like to
address the issue of change. And I think the unbridled desire to
build because you can afford has to have some kind of measure in
Board of Trustees 70 June 18, 2008
terms of the common interest and our environment. And let's look
at China and the government doesn't have any codes right now and
the building frenzy is going on and let's see and look around and I
think it is upon your shoulder that you make reasonable decisions
in deciding what should be built, what shouldn't be built, rather
than looking at codes and I think we should start from today,
either you make a reasonable decision or you allow such big houses
to be built on small properties, endangering the environment around
us and the creek especially. And that's all I have to say. I'm
pleading with the committee here to make an intelligent decision.
Thank you, for your time
MS. HULSE: From a legal standpoint, this Board does not have the
discretion to indiscriminately deny things permissible by the
code. So even if they would personally choose to, they don't have
the ability to do that and I have to advise them they don't have
the ability to do that or they'll be bringing a lawsuit on their hands.
The way Jill and Peggy have both described it is accurate.
It's legislation that has to be passed by the Town Board and the
Building Department issues are mostly what you are addressing are
also regulated by the code. So that's where the parameters are.
So this Board doesn't really have the discretion to opt out of
following the code.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would like to point out that that area does have
homes that are 3,500 square feet. At least. Thers are several of
them, most notably at the end of Indian Neck Lane. I know because
I designed the air conditioning and heating for those homes so I
know how big they are. They do exist.
MS. DOUGLAS: 3,500. We are talking about what's on the creek. They
are on a big piece of property, not on a 100 foot piece of property.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: That's the building code. That's the definition.
The issue that was brought up is drainage and size. And those do
exist there.
MS. WIER: Linda Wier. I'm not in a small house but I have an acre
where the drainage can go. That is my contention is that they are
building a big house on a small piece of property and where is the
drainage going to go? It's going to go to the west. I'm also
concerned how they are going to build, how high they're going to
build, their elevation. I don't know that. That makes a big
difference also.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's also a building code.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: How big is the property?
MR. IAVARONE: Over three quarters of acre.
MS. WlER: But it's 100 feet wide, so all that drainage will go to
either side, to the neighbors.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: The new drainage code, Chapter 236 says that all
the drainage has to be contained on the person's property. And if
they have to, what they have to do is they have to direct that
drainage, that roof runoff into drywells. So it's not going to be
just running off and going off. It goes into drywells, and an
engineer has to calculate that. It has to. It's the code.
MS. WIER: Who enforces the code? There are so many things that are
Board of Trustees 71 June 18, 2008
not enfomed in this town.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I understand that. But that's the Town Code. The
drainage code. It's not the Trustees.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: We to compliance checks.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: As far as what they applied for with the drywells,
we'll make sure the drywells are there, as far as what our permit says.
MS. MOORE: Also I would point out the Building Department will not
issue a CO without the gutters, drywells, gutters, leaders going
into the drywells. Actually the enforcement today is much more
strict than when any of the homes surrounding us were ever built.
In fact their drywells probably go straight to the ground and
permeate over the land rather than going into drywells. Very
unusual existing conditions for old houses to actually put drywells
in. It would be smart if they did but that's not the requirement.
Now it is. Any of you who renovate will be obligated to do the same thing
MR. IAVARONE: I also upgraded to six-inch gutters on the house,
which even absorbs more of the roof runoff.
MS. WlER: My other concern are the trees. When they submitted
their first plan, I don't know how many trees they cut down. But
they cut down a lot. I'm across the creek and I could hear it for
days. So Mr. lavarone says he's only going to cut down so many
trees. I hope somebody enforces that. Okay? We have nothing that
we can do about it. When it happens, it happens. You know. I'm
the only person I think on Richmond Creek that did not take down
the hundred foot buffer. I have all my trees that were originally
there. I have everything that was there, because that's what I was
told I was supposed to do. But everybody else comes in and they
cut everything down. I just don't understand when you make a rule
or a law, why it's not followed. Thank you.
TRUSTEE KING: Any other comments? Comments from the Board?
(No response.)
Peggy brought up a good point. We wrestled with these larger
houses on smaller lots and we tried and didn't get anywhere with it.
Being no other comments, I'll make a motion that we close the
hearing.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: In my mind I know it's a large house. But I'm also
looking at the closeness of the original house to the water, septic
system close to the water. I think in my own mind I think this new
residence is going to have less impact on the waterfront than the
old house and the old septic had. I think it's an improvement,
putting a 20-foot buffer in behind the bulkhead. A new drainage
system. Everybody was concerned about the runoff. I know with
this new code now there won't be any runoff from this going into
the creek. Not in my mind. I think we did all we can with it.
The septic is entirely out of our jurisdiction. The driveway will be pervious.
I would like to make a motion to approve this application with
a 20-foot buffer and pervious driveway. It was found inconsistent
because of the setback. Like I say, if you can get the newstructures,
Board of Trustees 72 June 18, 2008
even though it's larger, if you get it landward from the old structure,
it's a step on the right direction. I just wish we had something
in the code to limit the size of some of these waterfront homes. Right now
we can't do it.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I want to reiterate. I'll be very short. When
we sit up here we can't always vote by our gut or by our heart.
And unfortunately there have been times when I want to vote one way
and as Lori has said, I'm obligated by the position we hold that I
must vote for what is in our law and our code. And we have revised
it twice and I'll say that I will continue to pursue and when
revisions come up that I'll bring again to the table that we have a
more stringent, look at more stringent restrictions on these
smaller pieces and property and not allow them these larger
buildups. But we can't address that tonight. It's something we
have to keep on the forefront of our changes and our revisions.
But tonight's decision has to be as per our existing code.
TRUSTEE KING: I think with the septic being moved out, the non-turf
buffer.
MS. DOUGLAS: Could I say one more thing. I just want clarification.
The proposed house is going to be 3,400 square feet.
MR. IAVARONE: Including the garage. Living space plus the garage.
There are a lot the peaks and valleys. I know you looked at the
footprint of the house.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We are in the middle of a resolution, if you could
discuss that out in the hallway.
TRUSTEE KING: With all the things we have done as far as the
drainage, the buffer, septic out of our jurisdiction. I think it
brings it into compliance with LWRP. I make the motion it's found
consistent and also make a motion to approve the application as
submitted. Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Pat, if we can have revised plans showing the
20-foot non-turf buffer on it.
MS. MOORE: Can I come in and change it to 20?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Yes.
MS. MOORE: Thank you.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Number 13, Patricia Moore on behalf of JUDY TEEVAN
& PAULA DIDONATO requests a Wetland Permit to replace wood decking
around pool, wood deck, wood walkway and wood retaining wall with
bluestone pavers and eight-inch concrete retaining wall to pool
deck level. Located: 325 Willow Point Road, Southold.
I understand there was a violation issued. Sorry, let me
back up. This was brought before us at the hearing last month. It
was postponed. There was a violation. It's my understanding the
violation has been taken care of.
MS. HULSE: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So we can move forward with this. (3AC resolved to
not support this as-built work. The (3AC recommends drywells
Board of Trustees 73 June 18, 2008
installed for the pool backwash and the impervious paving is replaced with
pervious paving and curbing..
MS. MOORE: Can I respond to that?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Hang on. And the proposed action is found
inconsistent under the LWRP because the actions are within the
minimum 50 foot setback from the tidal wetland boundary.
So is there anybody here to speak on behalf of this application?
MS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you. I'm here. Last but not least. Almost
last but not least. Ms. Teevan is here. I wanted you to meet,
well you've all met each other at one point or other. She wants at
one point or other to say something, but not at this point. I want
to cladfy all, the replacement of the wood material was replaced
with pervious bluestone stone, fresh bluestone material. There was
no cement used so that in fact that delayed our process because
originally we wanted to be sure that we were replacing wood with
pervious material. $o everything that has been replaced was just,
the wood was replaced with the bluestone. On sand. And that was
intentionally done that way.
The area that are the walkways ways and the area that was wood
decking around the pool, essentially the wood walkways were
replaced and the wood material that was around the pool. I would
point out that all of these existing structures were done probably
in the '70s, I think. They have been repaired over time and
ultimately it was decided to change it from wood to bluestone, that
was the only change. And as far as drywells for the pool pump, is
there one there or?. It's not a backwash system. It's a dry system
so therefore it doesn't require the drywell.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Thank you.
MS. MOORE: I would just point out that actually I'm the one who
told you guys there was a violation because it was my client was
away and it was done after I had made the application, while I was
posting it, the work got done. So if anything I'm the one who came
to you and said I'm sorry, it's been done much to all of our
dismay, and so just understand that it was us coming to you saying
we understand we are at fault and we'll move forward, so.
If you recall, one issue has never been actually answered. I
apologize. The bulkhead permit had to cut off a pipe that was a
pre-existing pipe for drainage. We have still not gotten word back
on how that is to be corrected and the highway superintendent,
nobody's told us.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Every storm water meeting that I go to I bring
that up and I have gotten no answers and I said this has got to be
a priority, we have to fix this. And I suggested that we get all
the neighbors and have a specific meeting on this because they have
to do their part, too, because it is clay and the town can't
control all that road runoff.
MS. MOORE: And it's town road. The drainage is town road drainage,
essentially.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And basically the only solution is get all the
neighbors to conform to the new Chapter 236 and then the town to do
what they can on the drainage. That's the only thing that can
Board of Trustees 74 June 18, 2008
work. It won't take care 100% but we have to get everybody
together and I'm having trouble getting our people together to get
far enough to get you guys together.
MS. MOORE: I know she checks with me and I check with the office.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: And I keep bringing it up to the storm water
runoff committee. Our next meeting is the 24th of June and I'll
bring it up again.
TRUSTEE KING: Nothing is preventing you from building the bulkhead.
MS. MOORE: Yes, when you cut off that pipe, what's going to happen
to the water?
TRUSTEE KING: The read will probably flood.
MS. MOORE: That's not a good solution.
TRUSTEE KING: Then maybe will do something about it. You said it's
all read runoff. It's not all read runoff. Everybody is putting
their runoff on the read, then it becomes our read runoff. That's
the problem there.
MS. MOORE: I don't know who has drywells and who doesn't.
TRUSTEE KING: If everybody contains their own runoff, the town
would very easily be able to take care of the read runoff. It's a
tough situation.
MS. MOORE: That may be the solution to get everybody to do it.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Is there anybody else here who would like to speak
on behalf of this application.
MS. TEEVAN: So the reason I wanted to come out and be here is to
represent myself and the property and to just personally
apologize. It was not the intent to do the work in advance of
having a permit, and it was a series of miscommunications between
myself and the contractor, but I don't blame the contractor. I
take full responsibility because it's my property and it's my
house. So it was basically a replacement of what was very old and
decaying rotten wood, to replace it with something that is
permeable and I think all of what was there was permitted and I
think it was replacement of that. The intention was certainly to
get a permit before we proceeded with this. So, thank you.
MS. MOORE: I could say it a dozen times but unless you hear it
directly from the horse's mouth.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: A couple of points. First off, I appreciate what
you have stated here tonight because the Board was frustrated when
they went out there and found this because we had specifically met
with you in the field previously where this project was discussed
and we had said you need to have a permit. So the Board did get
very frustrated when they went out and saw this as an as-built
permit. So I appreciate what you said here tonight.
MS. TEEVAN: I came home from Arizona and was pleasantly surprised
to see it done but the disappointment was in kind of the way it
happened. It was hard to get in touch with me out there.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: There was one item from our previous visit. There
had been, it looked like a runoff issue from the house where there
was a drainage pipe that went down underground to the bulkhead.
And it looked like when we were out there that underground drainage
pipe is still them.
Board of Trustees 75 June 18, 2008
MS. TEEVAN: It's been cut off.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: It's been cut off. The pipe is still there but it's
been cut off.
MS. TEEVAN: It's been cut off. So the pipe is still there but the
pipe has been disconnected from the drain. It's been cut. I'm
happy to have anyone take a look at that.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: We have a picture here though of a downspout going
down and not connecting to what appears might be a drywell.
MS. MOORE: Which side of the house?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll show you the picture. It might be easier if
you saw the actual picture.
MS. TEEVAN: That's the front of the house.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: The only thing we were at was the back of the
house. I call it the front on the water.
MS. TEEYAN: What's the question with that?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: We were curious. We thought it was going to a
drywell. You are saying it does not.
MS. TEEVAN: That's the one going --
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Going out to the comer of the property. That's
how it's been cut off, but it just drains off. Right now it
appears water comes out of that downspout and comes right down into
that drain and then continue on down to the creek.
MS. TEEVAN: So this whole thing has as to be taken out but it needs
to feed directly into the ground.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. But there should be a drywell put in
there to catch that rain water. What you said is cut off, it's not
really because that water comes out of the downspout and into that
pipe.
MS. MOORE: So it needs to be connected to a drywell well. I think
we talked about that with regard to, when we talked about the
bulkhead. So we said Costello was here that night. He said he
would put in a drywell when that job is done. That's the
intention. Do we have to do it before the bulkhead.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I want to make it as part of approving this
application because the application was found inconsistent under
LVVRP. So what I would like to do is a condition here, number one,
you stated that the bluestone pavers are pervious. Number two, you
said that the pool does not have a backwash system. And so I'm
going to ask that this particular water runoff issue from the roof
be addressed with a drywell, as we talked about previously. I'll
make that as a condition of approval.
MS. MOORE: All right. The same guys are doing, unfortunately,
Costello is doing our work and he's waiting for the answer on the
pipe. So we'll have a Catch-22.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: We can have this, this part can be remedied prior
to the bulkhead being put in. It doesn't have to be connected to
the bulkhead construction.
Are there any other comments from the Board?
(No response.)
I'll make a to close the public hearing.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: Second.
Board of Trustees 76 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I'll make a motion to approve number thirteen on
behalf of Judy Teevan and Paula Didonato as stated at 325 Willow
Point Road, and with the condition that the one downspout that
right now does not lead to a drywell on that back corner of the
highways, that a drywall is installed on contain that runoff. That
combined with the fact that this pool does not require a backwash
system and the bluestone pavers are pervious, will deem this as
consistent under LWRP.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
MS. MOORE: Thank you.
MS. MOORE: I'm sorry, one more quick clarification on Walker. You
guys went so fast. The pool house, I want to make sure when I get
a permit it says electric and water. Because you both acknowledge
it's already there. It's not habitable.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I went back and retracted the no plumbing and no
electric and I said no habitation, no expansion of the current
plumbing.
MS. MOORE: Fine. Thank you. I don't want to go back and then have
that. Thank you, very much.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Number fifteen Garrett Strang, Architect, on
behalf of 2000 BROADWATERS LLC requests a Wetland Permit to
construct a 4x124' fixed catwalk, a 2.5'x12' ramp and 6x20'
floating dock. Located: 2000 Broadwaters Road, Cutchogue.
Do we want to do 15 and 16 at the same time?
(Board responds in the negative.)
These were opened last month, right.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: No, 15 was.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: This was already opened and I don't remember
exactly why we tabled it.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: We didn't have an LWRP.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Is that what it was; we didn't have an LWRP? We do
now. LWRP has found this to be inconsistent noting the proposed
dock may not be permitted over vegetated wetlands located within a
critical environmental area pursuant to 275-11. That area is
designated by New York State as a significant coastal fish and
wildlife habitat. Any activity would substantially degrade the
water quality of Cutchogue Harbor or the adjacent wetlands and
creeks.
It does offer some mitigation measures that can be done here.
Avoidance of potentially adverse impacts; avoiding ecologically
sensitive areas; preventing fragmentation of intact habitat areas;
it suggests possible moodngs instead of the dock; catwalk.
Through a site visit the proposed project location at the
proposed project location it appears the neighbor's vessel to the
northeast is sitting on the bottom. Whereas the proposed placement
Board of Trustees 77 June 18, 2008
of the float will not extend beyond the neighbor's and the limited
water depth indicated on the site plan, the proposed float and
attached vessel could have potential adverse impacts to the public
trust bottom land through sitting of the vessel or float and prop
dredging from the vessel on the bottom.
That was the extent of the report. CAC, to reiterate, did
resolve to support the application with the condition open-grate
decking is used on the catwalk. Would anybody else like to make a
comment on this application?
MR. STRANG: Garrett Strang on behalf of 2000 Broadwaters LL¢. I
know we've had a field meeting. We made some modifications to the
original plan in the hopes of mitigating some of the issues there.
In looking at the site and in looking at the site plan, it's the
only location where we can, on the site, where we can place the
catwalk and the dock to have the least amount of impact over the
wetland area. There is, where the proposed dock is located, is
also where it's the most amount of water at the float, at 2.7
feet. I'm not sure what, at the time of the inspection, previous
inspection, made reference in the LWRP, which I have not seen a
copy of, of a boat that was on the bottom. Two-and-a-half feet of
water at Iow tide should be ample water for most boats, of the
nature that would come in and out of that creek, anyway.
I mean I think in our application we made every effort to try
to balance the ecology with the needs of an applicant to have
access to the water.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: They revised the design of this and moved it a
little bit?
MR. STRANG: We revised the design after the discussion with the
Board, we made the catwalk shorter and made the float parallel, if
you will, or in alignment as opposed to perpendicular which, in
that effort, shortened the catwalk. We made changes to four-inch
square posts in lieu of the original six-inch piles. We were
always proposing to use the grating for the decking. And we
narrowed the catwalk down to I think three feet from the four, as
we originally applied for. And we lowered it from four feet to two
feet. And we have eliminated the posts from extending beyond the
catwalk. They are now flush with the catwalk.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Anybody else have comment or questions?
(No response.)
I think the changes made were pretty straight forward.
MS. MIKULAS: Robyn Mikulas, we live at 1900. When we were here
last time one of the things that was supposed to be brought to the
table is the location of our dock in comparison to where that dock
is. There is supposed to be something.
MR. STRANG: It's on the plan.
MS. MIKULAS: So you could see how close the two docks will be, if
this dock is approved. And also when you do see the other plans
you'll see where the pathway is and there is a lot of things that
once you see the house plans you'll see this location of that dock
is really, it's going to change the nature of the vegetation all
the way down the whole side of our property and down to the
Board of Trustees 78 June 18, 2008
wetlands. And it's really, it's right on the property line.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I have a question. A couple of questions. Your
house, your property is immediately adjacent to this property,
correct?
MS. MIKULAS: Yes.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: What we saw there-- we didn't see docks there. We
saw remnants of some pilings.
MS. MIKULAS: Yes, and when we bought the house we were told the
dock will be grandfathered in because there was an existing dock.
It was a little bit there when we first moved in and we sort of
took the boards away because they were going to end up in the
water. So that's what we were told, we would have to, if it was
grandfathered in we were under the impression we would have to have
to put it in the same location or thereabouts, and that's our intent.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: That would have to be applied for and considered by
the Board also. Right now, what you had presented was you had a
dock next door and we went and looked, there was no dock. There
were a couple of old pilings but the only dock that we saw was two
properties down. And that's the one referred to with the boat that
was sitting on the bottom at Iow tide. So I just wanted to clarify
to make sure we are talking of the same thing here.
MS. MIKULAS: Yes, on the other side of us.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. The other thing we noted when we were
down there, is there is certainly, somebody has been blowing or
moving, dumping leaves and grass clippings within our jurisdiction
along this property line. I'm not saying who, but somebody has
been doing that. That's a violation of the Town Code. So please do
not be putting yard debris down in the wetlands around the bacharus
and down in the wetland area.
MS. MIKULAS: It's not down there. It's up around the top.
TRUSTEE BERGEN; It was in our area. I'm also saying please don't
do that. It's also now somebody else's property and I don't know if
the property owner wants you dumping yard debris. That's between
the two of you. But what I just wanted to address is just not to
place any yard debris down in the wetlands there.
This as proposed, I believe, meets the minimum setback of 15
feet off the property line. So when you talk about what the Town
Code is as far as docks and the distance to the property, Town Code
stays minimum of 15 feet. That's what is on this plan.
MS. MIKULAS: It's now 15. It was 12. So it's definitely 15 now.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Yes.
MS. MIKULAS: I wanted to point that out.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other comments or questions?
MR. MIKULAS: Rich Mikulas. Along with dock issues, the house plan
creates a little bit of a problem for us. I know that's the next
thing but I think they are kind of tied together. I would like to
think in my own mind they are tied together. I don't know if you
want me to address that now or if you just want to go through the
dock situation.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We'll just stick to the dock now and address the
house in the next.
Board of Trustees 79 June 18, 2008
MR. MIKULAS: It basically has to do with water runoff from the
street; not the adjacent property but from the street, and how that
whole side of our property line can be affected.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We'll address that with the next application.
MS. MIKULAS: The only thing is if you could look at the house thing
and you can see where the walkway to this dock is set up, can that
be addressed? Is that part of the house? Because if you look, all
the vegetation is gone. They are right up to the border of the
property and they have a path coming straight down. So if there is
already concerns about the wetlands, how can you remove huge
sections over there?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: We'll take a look at that on the next application.
MS. MIKULAS: I think one has to do with the other. If you approve
one and then get on the other one --
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I did want to address the dock. I was on some
of the inspections where all of the adjustments and changes were
made and I think that you have made a tremendous effort to cut it
back and improve it as environmentally as possible. However after
waiting for the LWRP I would have to say I do concur. At some
point we have to step back and say we are looking at our shorelines
with different eyes and with this being a critical habitat area and
the comments that Scott Hilary has made in his LWRP I would be
inclined not to approve this permit tonight.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other comments?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: With all due with respect to the LWRP evaluation
and what Peggy just said, this Board just within the last few
months approved a modification to one dock immediately to the
south, trying to get my compass rose right here. And there is
another dock also to the south. We know to the north already there
is remnants of a dock and there is another dock immediately to the
north of that. So I do not have an objection to a dock being put
here because thers is already docks in this area.
TRUSTEE DICKERSON: I just want to say that we have said in the past
you can't make decisions on docks with past practice. We have to go
with what we have learned today. And also to say there is one down
east or up west or whatever, we also say that we address each dock
application in its own right, so.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Correct. We do
TRUSTEE KING: This reminds me of another application we had,
segmenting another section of marsh. Quite frankly I just, I'm
torn between what's right what isn't right.
MR. STRANG: May I just make a brief comment? I appreciate and hear
and try to be as sensitive as I can be to the environment and when
we need to do, and I think, as I said previously, we have made that
effort here, which has been acknowledged by Ms. Dickerson.
But this is my only personal opinion and observations, to not
have a catwalk across the marsh and say you can have a mooring or
you can have a float but you have to walk across the marsh to get
to it. To me that is more degrading to the marsh to have foot
traffic constantly back and forth across the marsh land than it is
to have a well designed, well installed and well executed catwalk
Board of Trustees 80 June 18, 2008
across it. I think it's an asset as opposed to a liability. I
think not having a catwalk is more of a lability to the wetlands.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: I tend to agree. I undemtand Peg's opinion because
I happen to hold an opinion of this area as well. And I'm not
particularly thrilled at the development, but I think you are
right. I think with the open grating and bringing it down, makes
it a little bit more palatable in a sense that the plants can still
grow, the shading isn't as bad and it doesn't impact the
environment as much as the real hard structures would have. So I
think in lieu of saying no, I think it's a pretty good mitigation.
So I'll vote for it. But I do understand the environmental impacts
that could be construed hera.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It's typical of what makes our job so difficult,
you know.
TRUSTEE KING: Will it be a seasonal float?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: If that's what you want to make it.
TRUSTEE KING: I would strongly suggest that. It will probably be a
requirement from the DEC because it's in less than four feet of water.
MR. STRANG: We don't have a challenge with a seasonal float.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other comment, questions?
TRUSTEE KING: I don't think you can downsize it much more.
MR. STRANG: I think we've made it about as small as we can and
still make it usable.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would like to make a motion to approve the
application of 2000 Broadwaters to construct a 4x124 fixed catwalk
as describe in number 15 with the stipulation the float installed
is to be seasonal float; noting that the new plans on catwalk do
include mitigation attempts by utilizing the grated catwalk and
reducing the height of the catwalk down to two feet. And I would
suggest that that would then be consistent with LWRP.
TRUSTEE KING: I wonder if we can get that down to 18 inches.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: It might have a problem with the DEC.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: What are the boards, 2x10; 2x87
MR. STRANG: That's a good question. 2x8s.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: If they are 2x8s and you want to bring it town to
18 inches.
MR. STRANG: It's 2x8 joists then we've got the and horizontal
girders between the posts that the joists rest on. So you are down
almost 16 inches there. It's going to be almost in the water. The
other challenge with getting it that Iow, too, in that area, you
are all aware, when we have the higher than ordinary tides, that
becomes a big, broad body of water, and with a good wind blowing it
gets a good chop on it and it's going to be pounding on the
underside of that dock, even though it's open, since they are only
4x4's now that we could use, it will want to pick those up.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: 4x4s in the marsh?
MR. STRANG: Yes. There is a good likelihood the DEC will make us
Board of Trustees 81 June 18, 2008
do 4x4's all the way out.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Do I have a second?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(Trustee King, aye. Trustee Doherty, aye. Trustee Bergen, aye.
Trustee Ghosio, aye. Trustee Dickerson, nay.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: For the record, Trustee Dickerson voted nay.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Number 16, Garrett Strang, Amhitect, on behalf of
200 BROADWATERS LLC requests a Wetland Permit to replace the
existing two-car garage with a new single-family dwelling with
deck, terrace, sanitary system, lawn area with retaining walls and
path to dock, and drywells to contain roof runoff. Located: 2000
Broadwaters Road, Cutchogue.
This was reviewed by the Board and CAC resolved to support the
application with the following conditions: That the retaining wall
is removed from the plans because it would change the flow of water
and adversely affect the neighbor's property; there should be no
change to the woodland, wetland habitat and plant habitat; no
change to the existing grade; no lawn or disturbance to the FEMA
flood line; limit the number of trees being removed and;
installation of a line of staked hay bales prior to construction activities.
LWRP has found this application to be inconsistent pursuant to
section 275-3, the proposed action are within the minimum 100 foot
setback. So it's a setback issue. It also notes that it's part of
Hay Water Cove/Cutchogue Harbor/wetlands game and fish wildlife
habitat area.
It's asking to help mitigate that to require the applicant to
maximize a 75-foot perpetual non-disturbance buffer maintaining the
existing indigenous vegetation. That's basically it.
Anybody here who would like to address this application?
MR. STRANG: Garrett Streng, Architect, on behalf of 2000
Broadwaters LLC. This is the first time I'm hearing some of the
comments from the CAC and LWRP. I'm at a loss at a moment as to
how to even respond to some of them. If I understand correctly,
one of the CAC recommendations was to not allow anything below the
FEMA flood line at elevation eight, am I correct?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: No lawn or disturbance to the FEMA flood line. And
LWRP recommended a 75 foot non-disturbance buffer, essentially.
MR. STRANG: I mean, in a perfect world that would not be a problem
but in this particular situation a lot is shallow given the fact
the wetlands come up as far as they do on to the property and we do
have a front yard setback requirement to meet for zoning. So if we
were to begin to do a 75-foot non-disturbance buffer, we proposed a
50-foot non-disturbance buffer. If we were to do a 75-foot
non-disturbance buffer it would put it right at the footprint of
the terrace and the deck that comes off the house.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I see the 50-foot non-disturbance buffer. 90 foot
from the wetland line to the house.
MR. STRANG: To the house itself. In front of the house is a deck.
Board of Trustees 82 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: 75 for the deck.
MR. STRANG: And below the deck is a terrace, at grade level, is
what's proposed.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: Now, the proposed retaining wall is at 50 foot. I
believe the Board did not want to see that there.
MR. STRANG: There was discussion in the field about that as well. I
brought that back to my client. His concern is that it's the only
place in the yard where you could have a play area for the children
that would not be playing right adjacent to the street. And the
idea of the retaining wall was one where he could have a little bit
of a flattened lawn area so the kids could kick a ball and not have
it run down into the wetland area and have to be retrieving things
from the wetlands area.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: How high the wall offthe ground?
MR. STRANG: At the lowest it's about six inches. At the highest
it's about 30 inches. That's the maximum. I don't know if there is
a way to mitigate the Board's concerns with respect to the
materials we may use for the retaining wall.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I appreciate what you are saying about the kids.
I have kids myself, and I understand it. But I think he knew what
he was buying when he bought the piece of property and to change
the topography of the property that much for a play area, to me, it
doesn't balance out the environment and the person. It just,
that's how I feel about it.
MR. STRANG: I'm just sharing with you what his position was since
he can't be here tonight.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: I have to agree with Trustee Doherty. I cannot
support this with these retaining walls and the proposed lawn
area. To be honest with you, people have been living, I grew up on
that creek also. People have been living on that creek for years,
raising kids without retaining walls or nice grassy lawns in front
and, I'm sorry, but they learn to adapt. Kids learn to adapt. And
I think environmentally I can't support this retaining wall and
this proposed lawn area, flat lawn area. I think it should just be
left natural going down to the water. And I have no problem with
just a 50-foot non-disturbed area, allowing a path to get down to
the dock, obviously. Four-foot wide path.
MR. STRANG: So between the edge of the terrace, assuming that's
approved, from that point seaward, if you will, would remain
natural, no lawn area at all; is that what is being --
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Describe that again, please.
MR. STRANG: From the edge of the terrace, which is directly below
the deck, from that point seaward would remain a natural state, no
lawn at all, even if there is no retaining wall?
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: If we decide it's a 50-foot non-disturbance buffer
you can go from the terrace to where the line is at the
non-disturbance and you can have lawn there. That can be lawn.
Without the retaining wall. It can't be flat the way he wants it.
MR. STRANG: That's what I'm trying to clarify.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: So leave the trees there and have a nice lawn area
there and then from the 50-foot mark down that would be
Board of Trustees 83 June 18, 2008
undisturbed, with the exception of a four-foot wide path to get to
the dock.
MR. STRANG: I just to want to make sure we can have some lawn as
long as it's on the natural topography that we have there.
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Sure. In my in opinion.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: That's the balance we can live with. Not what he
wants.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: is that acceptable or do you want to present that
to your client?
MR. STRANG: Well --
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I'm asking should we table or go forward.
MR. STRANG: I think we should go forward. This board is pretty
steadfast in its position on this. I don't know that he could come
to the table with anything else that will be palatable.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other comments, questions, suggestions?
MS. MIKULAS: I just have a question. Why, if these recommendations
are being made environmentally, to do those things, like keep it at
75 or previously with certain dock recommendations, I don't
understand why they are sort of saying, okay, they're recommending
this but no. Aren't they the people that look into all this
environmental stuff?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Sure. And once we take all the information, they
don't necessarily look at it from every aspect of the project or
what the applicant is looking to do. That's we are here for.
Otherwise you would not need us. May make recommendations, the
architect makes recommendations, the homeowners make
recommendations, you do, and we ultimately take all that together
and try to come up with a reasonable decision. A lot of times
it means making changes, which we have done, and we are doing it
now. We are eliminating a substantial portion of the application.
MS. MIKULAS: I'm questioning how much their recommendations do come
into play sometimes. 75 to 50.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: It's pretty substantial here. We are eliminating
what will probably be a $20,000 retaining call. Taking it out. I
mean that's substantial.
MR. MIKULAS: I have a comment about the runoff from the street.
After a storm like we had tonight, if you go by there and look,
within ten feet of the property line the south, our southeast,
their southwest property line, is the Iow point of the read. So
any runoff that comes from our direction, street runoff, that comes
from our direction or from the other direction ends up right at
that 20-foot section.
I was out there today and I don't know when the last rain was
here but there was a significant wide swath of leaves and stuff
that were washed out and washed on to our property.
MS. MIKULAS: The other side across from us, the houses are on a
hill. It comes down.
MR. MIKULAS: So it's a concern whatever the Board approves in terms
of building, tries to mitigate that in some respects either by
lessening the amount of trees that can be cut, because essentially
Board of Trustees 84 June 18, 2008
it's going to be clear cut from the access way from the other side
of the proposed property to our side. Because of that width there.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Can I clarify what you are saying; the runoff is
coming from the road on to these properties?
MR. MIKULAS: It's coming from the road and ends up approximately
between our two properties lines and it ends up primarily getting
soaked up sometimes in the woods that are there. Once the trees
are gone and everything it probably will end up on our property.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Have you spoken to the Highway Department about
the road runoff there?
MR. MIKULAS: I've spoke to Nassau Property Owners Association.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I'll bring this situation up to the storm water
runoff committee to make sure it's on our list. That area. That
road.
MR. MIKULAS: What's happening now is the water that does make it
past the front of the property is actually making it down to where
our septic is and our septic is about ten feet off the property
line where the proposed retaining wall is going to be.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: I suggest, I'll do my side, what I can, and I
suggest you talk to Peter Harris from the Highway Department and
he's the one that takes care of the roads for the town and make him
aware of the problem. Because it might be simple enough.
TRUSTEE KING: They may be able to put some drywells in to address
that situation.
MR. MIKULAS: That would be the request, in lieu of that, with that
not being there now and the proposed development.
MS. MIKULAS: And a house going there.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: The house, by code, has to retain all its runoff
roof runoff on its property.
MS. MIKULAS: It was the tree part we were concerned about. If I
understand correctly, nothing will be touched down toward the water
but between our property, there is ten feet from where the house is
supposedly going to be built. I'm assuming he'll have to remove
those trees. The original plan showed a retaining wall right on
the property line. So we had concerns because of the runoff,
before you even did your thing. That's like making a river for
us. So I'm assuming the vegetation will be all removed through
there, which is all treed right now. Everything is treed up to
where the garage is.
TRUSTEE GHOSlO: Depending upon what the vegetation is, I don't know
if there will be some lawn, it may actually help the drainage
situation.
MR. STRANG: We'll do, there will be some lawn area put in the
there; there is trees that can be kept will be kept. And obviously
as we has been discussed several times this evening, we have to
keep our roof runoff contained in the drywells.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: You'll find many times turf will actually hold the
water down
MS. MIKULAS: Just so something is there.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: It won't be stone. It will be something.
MR. STRANG: No, even the driveway is proposed to be permeable.
Board of Trustees 85 June 18, 2008
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Any other questions, comments from the Board?
(No response.)
I'll make a motion to close the hearing.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: I would like to make a motion to approve the
application as written on number 16, 2000 Broadwaters with the
stipulation that there be, as was on the plan, just reiterating, a
50-foot non-disturbance buffer from the water, from the edge of the
wetlands, and that the retaining walls are not done as part of this
project. We are not allowing the retaining walls. But everything
else as drawn on the plan is good.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: We need a revised plan showing the retaining walls
taken off.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes, a revised plan with the retaining walls taken
out. And by doing that it helps to mitigate, it will mitigate it to
bring it into consistency with the LWRP.
MS. MIKULAS: I just have one question. The pathway down to the
dock, is that allowed to be there or is that -
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes, it is. It's a four-foot wide path.
MS. MIKULAS: Right on the property line.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: That's by code, it's all right to have a four-foot
wide path to access --
MS. MIKULAS: It's okay for that vegetation to be gone?
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Yes. What are you puffing there; woodchips?
MR. STRANG: At this point we have not decided. We may just leave
it natural just so it's a designated path to provide access.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: It would be pervious, whatever it is.
MR. STRANG: Yes, it would definitely be pervious, a permeable
surface whatever is put there.
TRUSTEE GHOSIO: Second?
TRUSTEE BERGEN: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?.
(ALL AYES.)
TRUSTEE KING: I'll make a motion to adjourn.
TRUSTEE DOHERTY: Second.
TRUSTEE KING: All in favor?
(ALL AYES.)
RECEIVED
SEP 1 8 2008
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