HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-08/21/2008 Hearing1
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ECEIVED
SEP S 2008
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF A
COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
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TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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Southold Town Hall
Southold, New York
August 21, 2008
9:30 a.m.
Board Members Present:
GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
RUTH D. OLIVA - Member
JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member ABSENT
MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member (start - 2:46)
LINDA KOWALSKI - BOARD ASST.
KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Asst. town
attorney (start - 12:30)
(2:00 - end)
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ORIGINAL
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
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INDEX OF HEARINGS
Hearing: Page:
2000 Broadwaters LLC #6186 3-55
Ronald F. and Marilyn A. Gallagher #6181 55-61
Ryan and Jennifer Stork #6187 62-97
Richard Manfredia #6188 97-122
Richard and Patricia Mellas #6196 122-128
Thomas Zoitas #6191 128-144
Joann Walker #6193 149-146
Sean Gillan #6192 146-158
Eugenia Lambiris #6195 159-218 & 236-247
Lia Polites and Kevin Ferro #6129 218-224
William and Joanne Turnbull #6152 224-235
Michael and Susan Jeffries #6167 247-269
Spyro Avdoulos #6189 265-280
Michael Anasagasti and Others #6190 280-292
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SEP ' 8 2008
€~GARD GF APPEALS J
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1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Call meeting to
2 order. Motion?
3 BOARD MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
4 BOARD MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
6 HEARING #6186 - 2000 Broadwaters LLC
7 MEMBER WEISMAN:
8 "Request for a Variance under Section
9 280-129, based on the Building Inspector's May
10 12, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
11 proposed new dwelling with a setback at less
12 than the Code-required 35 feet from the front
13 lot line (after demolishing the existing
14 building), at 2000 Broadwaters Road,
15 Cutchogue; CTM 104-9-12."
16 Mr. Garrett, are you here to speak about
17 this? It would appear that a problem results
18 from having two front yards, one Crabbers
19 Lane, which is basically their driveway, and
20 at the closest point, you are proposing a 14-
21 foot setback from that road?
22 MR. STRANG: Yes, that's correct.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Garrett, can you
24 identify yourself?
25 MR. STRANG: Okay, Garrett Strang,
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i 1
2 architect, Southold, representing 2000
3 Broadwaters LLC.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you like to say
6 something about it?
7 MR. STRANG: Yes, I would. In general,
8 as you've already mentioned, we are bounded to
9 two -- well, a road Broadwaters on the one
10 side and the right-of-way on the other side,
11 which, as a point of information, is
12 considered unopened and unimproved, albeit
• 13 there is a driveway that the previous owner
14 had installed on that -- part of that area
15 sometime ago. We're also bounded on the other
16 side by the creek, which requires the normal
17 setbacks from the water, which ultimately
18 leaves us with a relatively restricted
19 building envelope to begin with.
20 There on site, as mentioned in the legal
21 notice, is a one and a half story two-car
22 garage, which also has some storage attached
23 to it, and that structure is about 13 feet off
24 the right of way at the closest point. The
25 proposal is to replace that garage with a
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
. and an attached
ara
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2 meaning that we will demolish the existing
3 garage to put the new house up. At the
4 closest point, the new structure will be 14
5 feet from the right of way, as the legal
6 notice indicates, and at the furthest point 20
7 feet off the right of way at the furthest
8 corner.
9 We're trying to do the best we can with
10 this particular circumstance given the
11 restrictions that we have to work with. The
12 house that we've designed or plan on
• 13 designing, and we gave you a little bit of a
14 concept there with some sketches, is intended
15 to be relatively modest in design and in
16 keeping with other homes in the neighborhood
17 and in the area in general on lots relative in
18 size to this, given the fact that many of
19 those lots don't have the same challenge we
20 have with respect to the right of way and the
21 road, having two front yards.
22 For reference the first floor living area
23 of the house will only be about 1900 square
24 feet. There is a half story above that with
25 bedrooms and the like, which would be less.
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1 So again, the house is relatively modest.
2 We're not looking to do anything outrageous or
3 totally out of character or over develop that
4 particular lot. We do have an approval from
5 the Trustees subject to deleting, what shows
6 on the map at the moment, but subject to
7 deleting the retaining walls. That's the only
8 serious objection they had to this application
9 so they did grant the conditional approval
10 with the removal of the retaining walls, which
11 we intend to do.
12 DEC is -- we expect to get a no-
13 jurisdiction determination based on the
14 contour of the property, or if that's not to
15 their liking, we suspect or expect that they
16 would grant the permits since we're already
17 keeping with all their requirements.
18 That's a general overview. I'll answer
19 any questions the Board may have at this time.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, did you
21 want to back to it with Garrett?
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me get back to just
23 a couple of questions. I think you said that
24 there was a half story above a 1900 square
25 foot first floor you propose?
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STRANG
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1 s
s, yes,
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MR.
:
2 1900 square feet is the basic footprint
3 livable area of the first floor of the house.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Plus the deck, right?
5 MR. STRANG: Plus the deck, yes.
6 There are dormers proposed up in the
7 upper area, the roof area, to give them a
8 proposed half story, which is substantially
9 less than the 1900 square foot footprint of
10 the main floor.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, somewhere I got it
12 in my mind this is a two and a half story
. 13 house as proposed.
19 MR. STANG: The reason for that, and I'll
15 clarify that, by definition the New York State
16 Building Construction Code since this land is
17 sloping away as it goes to the creek, the
18 basement will be, by definition, considered a
19 story.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
21 MR. STRANG: So we're trying to keep
22 everything on an even playing field here.
23 So the basement area --
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Now I understand.
25 Alright. I just want to make sure my facts
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1 ct
.
are corre
2 MR. STRANG: Alright, so there's a
3 basement area, which is considered a story,
4 there's the first floor level, which is of
5 course considered a story, and then the
6 dormered area of the roof is considered the
7 half story.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just ask a
9 question, Leslie?
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much of the
12 existing basement area, which of course is
13 basically the foundation of the house, will be
14 out of the ground? Enough for a garage down
15 there or --
16 MR. STRANG: No, because the garage is
17 going to be coming in from the street side,
18 which is the higher part of the property.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
20 MR. STRANG: So the garage would be maybe
21 I think in the profile it may show that in one
22 of the sketches I submitted. The garage floor
23 was maybe two and a half feet approximately
29 below the first floor level of the house at
25 the grade and then the basement is below that.
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in the
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1 ave a garage
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2 basement would be to excavate a tremendous
3 amount of fill out of the road -- the
4 Broadwaters side of the property, which I
5 don't think is the right thing to do and it
6 would present a challenge to come in from the
7 backside because we'd have to have a driveway
8 to go down along side the house as well as
9 coming in with that driveway closer to the
10 wetlands, which again I don't think is an
11 appropriate approach.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much foliage
. 13 around the roadside is going to be taken out?
14 Is it going to remain relatively private as it
15 is now?
16 MEMBER OLIVA: You can't see it.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is it going to be
18 totally denuded?
19 MR. STRANG: We're going to do the best
20 we can. Again, this is a very restrictive
21 area, envelope that we have to work in and in
22 that envelope we not only have to set the
23 house, we have to put the driveway in and we
24 have to put in a septic system. So my client
25 would like to maintain the privacy that's
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thi
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there. So
2 probably will re-landscape with some sort of
3 buffer along Broadwaters for their own privacy
4 purposes, but at this point a lot of what's
5 there, which is unfortunate it just happens to
6 be that is a very heavily wooded lot, is
7 within the footprint of where the house has to
8 go.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to say
10 that if we have any objection to this project
11 you may have to come up with a landscaping
12 plan and we'll deal with that.
13 Leslie, excuse me, Garrett.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Unless there's something
15 I don't have in our packet, maybe there is.
16 Hold on a second. No, I have it. This is a
17 Xerox of the site plan that you've submitted.
18 I needed -- this is unidentified and I
19 (inaudible) that it's Xeroxed in order to show
20 photographs.
21 MR. STRANG: That's correct. That's just
22 a photographic orientation map.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, this is the site
24 plan.
25 MR. STRANG: That's the site plan, yes.
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• d
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1 ave
you
MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay an
2 submitted a basic building diagram to show the
3 profile just to show the grade change and
9 (inaudible) of grade and so on.
5 MR. STRANG: Yeah, as you can see we're
6 trying to keep the house as low as possible to
7 the lay of the land.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: The deck that's being
9 proposed, the whole house, is 58 feet wide. I
10 guess that's primarily because it's a story
11 and a half. There's habit -- there are no
12 actual floor plans or elevations submitted.
• 13 So is that habitable space in that basement
14 area?
15 MR. STRANG: The basement area will
16 comprise mostly of storage and mechanical
17 equipment areas, but there is -- there will be
18 --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: There will be room left
20 over.
21 MR. STRANG: There will be room left over
22 for what they call a walkout basement to a
23 patio grade.
29 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, that's -- when I
25 saw two and a half story, I wondered why one
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1 needed such a wide footprint, but since there
2 really isn't much habitable space other than
3 on the primary grade level --
4 MR. STRANG: Yes.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- where the garage is
6 and I understand it now better. Okay. Let me
7 see if there's anything else that I had a
8 question about. Now, it seems to me that
9 you're going to have to pretty much clear cut
10 that property in order to build in that area.
11 MR. STRANG: Yeah, there's a lot that's
12 going to have to be removed. Again, that's
13 unfortunate, but it is a small lot that is not
14 without its challenges and, you know, we are
15 going to try to do the best we can to keep it.
16 Obviously, there is the 50-foot non-
17 disturbance buffer on the water side.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's nothing here
19 that shows dry wells, I don't think.
20 MR. STRANG: They have not been shown on
21 this site plan, but there will be dry wells
22 for roof run-off containment and of course,
23 there will also be a sanitary system, which
24 hasn't been drawn.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's not show either,
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1
2
yes.
MR. STRANG: Right.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: I suppose we could
9 always condition, you know, based upon dry
5 wells, rather than delay anything in order to
6 have that information.
7 MR. STRANG: That would not be a
8 challenge.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: That would have to be a
10 plan because it's going to have meet Code
11 anyway.
12 MR. STRANG: Yes. We have to meet Code.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
14 question? Are you --
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I'm done for now.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going to be
17 happy with this plan without seeing more
18 architectural --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, well that is the
20 one question that I had because it's rather
21 hard with simply a site plan, you know, and
22 building profile to evaluate character of the
23 neighborhood and so on. Style is style and no
24 one's legislating style anyway. So in that
25 sense it's not relevant, but usually we do
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. when it's a substantial
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ave more
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2 new dwelling that we're looking at and I would
3 like to see more. I don't know if it's
4 absolutely imperative that we see more in
5 order to make a final determination, but if my
6 colleagues would like to are they available,
7 do you have --
8 MR. STRANG: We have not --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- but you have not
10 developed them yet?
11 MR. STRANG: We have not developed them
12 because if for some reason this Board decides
13 to do one of two things, one either grant
14 alternative relief or deny the proposal
15 completely, it's an extraordinary expenditure
16 on my client's part to have a house designed
17 and only find out that it can't be built that
18 way or it can't be built at all.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Fair enough. That was
20 an assumption that I actually made that it was
21 schematic because you wanted to see what
22 variance you would get.
23 MR. STRANG: Yes, and we wanted to at
24 least present with those profiles the idea
25 that it's going to be a traditional style home
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and its mass
2 with the area and to scale with the lot and
3 the neighborhood.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, we just received
5 that there is an exemption from LWRP review on
6 this. Did you get a copy of it?
7 MR. STRANG: I did get it faxed over as I
8 was leaving the office.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: So that was one thing
10 that had been missing, but now we have that.
11 I have no further questions, at this
12 time.
• 13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay we'll go on to
14 Michael.
15 MEMBER SIMON: First of all, is the
16 garage on the level of the first floor or is
17 it lower or is it higher?
18 MR. STRANG: The garage and -- let me
19 just refer you to it, I can take a second
20 here. In the package the profiles should --
21 let see what profile would best show that?
22 MEMBER SIMON: If there were first floor
23 plan, it would show it.
24 MR. STRANG: Probably the south profile.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: The south is going to
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2 MR. STRANG: This is the -- it shows the
3 dotted line of not only the basement level,
4 but as you can see the garage is the mark to
5 the right. That is up considerably from the
6 basement level, but not quite a full story.
7 So it's about 2-1/2 feet below the finished
8 floor of the house and that's predicated on
9 the natural lay of the land.
10 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
11 MR. STRANG: We're trying not to disturb
12 that.
13 MEMBER SIMON: So the number you gave as
14 what you call modest is 1900 square feet for
15 the first floor of the house includes neither
16 the garage nor the deck?
17 MR. STRANG: That's correct.
18 MEMBER SIMON: That's actually, it's not
19 a small building.
20 MR. STRANG: It's -- well it's 1900
21 square feet living area.
22 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah. Usually when we
23 talk about first floor we include pertinent
24 structures such as decks and driveways.
25 MR. STRANG: That's why I mentioned
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d if
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1 course, an
s, o
livable area. The dec
2 you want to take a look at the total footprint
3 of that house including the deck and the
4 garage, the total footprint of that house is
5 shown on the site data schedule on the site
6 plan and that would be the -- where are we
7 here -- 3400 square feet is the footprint
8 including the deck, the house and the garage.
9 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I realize the
10 constraints you have with the narrowness of
11 the property in particular and, not that you
12 would be required to do so, but the one way of
13 avoiding the variance would be to have placed
14 this garage closer to the other side of the
15 property. Cause the garage -- without the
16 garage there, the setback would not be 14
17 feet, it would be something greater than that.
18 MR. STRANG: It would probably be maybe
19 16.
20 MEMBER SIMON: Right. So as I understand
21 your argument depends in part on how minor a
22 road Crabbers Road actually is and there I
23 think you're on pretty strong ground. If it
24 were a typical side street situation --
25 MR. STRANG: It would be totally
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1 different
.
2 MEMBER SIMON: Then it would be harder to
3 argue for this reduced setback on that side.
4 As a matter -- okay.
5 MR. STRANG: Just again, if I may make
6 comment with respect to putting a garage on
7 the other side of the house that this property
8 slopes up is somewhat higher there, which is
g again not the best location.
10 MEMBER SIMON: Right, I understand, but
11 there are pretty good reasons for not putting
12 the garage any place other than where it is.
13 Okay, I don't have any further questions.
14 Let me just add, I am concerned about the
15 minimal (inaudible) and I also understand that
16 you're at a cost risk of the extent, obviously
17 people always have to invest in more plans
18 than they might need if they didn't get
19 accepted. So I think the Board will probably
20 have to vote on the question of whether we're
21 going to adjourn with a condition on the
22 receipt of further plans, but I leave that
23 concern for (inaudible).
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're absolutely
25 correct, basically this is the type of lot
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1 that we would end up with down on Bay Shore
2 Road and I can tell you in Bay Shore Road we
3 have ended up with a model in every one of
4 these plans. Both more sophisticated plans
5 and more, you know, scaled model for us to
6 look at, but I'm just leaving it open at this
7 particular time.
8 Mrs. Oliva has a question.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: Garrett, having been down
10 there and I know where the garage was, I've
11 walked around down there, why couldn't you
12 come down Crabtree (sic) Road and then make
• 13 your turn right into a garage like under the
14 house a little further up?
15 MR. STRANG: I don't know that we have
16 the right to travel on Crabtree (sic) Road per
17 se.
18 MEMBER OLIVA: Oh.
19 MR. STRANG: It's a right of way. I'm
20 not sure, I haven't researched that --
21 MEMBER OLIVA: Cause you have the right
22 of way to get into the garage that's there
23 now.
24 MR. STRANG: I know. I don't know if
25 that's legal or not.
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. MEMBER OLIVA: Oh
1 .
2 MR. STRANG: The previous owner did that
3 of his -- the previous owner apparently, from
4 what I've been told, was of the mind set that
5 he owned Crabbers Road, which is, in fact --
6 MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay.
7 MR. STRANG: -- not the case.
8 MEMBER OLIVA: Alright.
9 MR. STRANG: It is a right of way, albeit
10 unimproved and unopened, and it may possibly
11 be a right of way strictly for pedestrian use,
12 not necessarily for vehicular use.
• 13 MEMBER OLIVA: Could you find that out
14 because you have (inaudible) once that's
15 there, why not use that instead of having to
16 cut all that foliage down and everything else
17 to make a new driveway coming in from
18 Broadwaters?
19 MR. STRANG: That's certainly something
20 that I can look into.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: It's a lovely piece of
22 property, but a very difficult one.
23 MR. STRANG: It is a very difficult one.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Where do we stand,
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2 MR. STRANG: Are there comments?
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I haven't gotten
4 there yet, but I'm just, you know, where do we
5 stand in terms of a model and/or --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't need a model.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: More information.
g MEMBER SIMON: We do need more
9 information.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean it should --
11 massing models (inaudible) such a big deal to
12 produce any other model is very expensive and
13 would require a lot of design. I mean you
14 don't -- this profile could be set, with the
15 footprint, could be set into a chip board
16 model with contours just to show -- because it
17 would be easier for them to understand, I
18 guess, the slope and the boundaries. I can
19 read the material like this fairly easily, but
20 I do have some concern because there are --
21 there's another case before us, although each
22 is site specific and case specific, where we
23 also have just a site plan with setback
29 situation in East Marion and that's almost
25 impossible to evaluate without drawings
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th
h
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1 er
ouses.
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s so c
ose
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because
2 This isn't quite as close, you know,
3 there's one house that's really high and
4 facing more to the left and the one to the
5 right is fairly well screened. It's a little
6 bit closer, but it kind of has a blank
7 elevation. I do feel that I want to try to be
8 consistent in the way in which we evaluate
9 application even though they're site specific
10 and we will be certainly requiring more
11 information in that other case. So the
12 profiles at least are submitted, which was not
• 13 the case in the other application.
14 So I think what I'll do is defer to the
15 rest of the Board to see if they understand
16 everything you feel you need to from the
17 information. If there's questions as a result
18 of what's submitted, then I think we should
19 ask for more information.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's very unique
21 about this is we have involved ourselves
22 several times with these rights of ways,
23 Nassau Point, and some of them have some
24 jurisdictions others don't have other types of
25 jurisdictions, but all in all they've always
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• d or a walkin
ith
d
id
1 g
er a roa
ere
e
been cons
2 path and they've been treated the same way;
3 however, I think it's (inaudible) here to find
4 out what the actual use of this right of way
5 is, does it belong to an association, does it
6 belong to the property owners in general, are
7 they really part of the association and who
8 has a right to use it and so on and so forth.
9 Are there any prescriptive easements from the
10 prior owner?
11 MR. STRANG: There's no easements that
12 I'm aware of from the prior owner. I can do
13 my best in trying to investigate the situation
14 with the right of way, although I know having
15 been at the last property owner's association
16 meeting that there is a lot of inconsistency,
17 misinformation, and nebulous ideas about what
18 exactly --
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Took place.
20 MR. STRANG: -- the history of the right
21 of ways, who owns them, how they existed, how
22 they continue, and they're trying to work that
23 out themselves. It's apparently a long and
24 arduous task for them to do and I can
25 understand that. I'm not sure if there's been
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
n this
th
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2 particular Crabbers Road itself.
3 MEMBER SIMON: I agree with Ruth's point,
4 in this case, we're not talking about having
5 coherent general policies for all of the right
6 of ways, but for this particular property and
7 what is at issue here is the possibility of
8 having the driveway enter from Crabbers Road
9 and I think we will, as far as I'm concerned,
10 we will need to have the results of your
11 research on this as to what can and cannot be
12 done.
• 13 MR. STRANG: Okay.
14 MEMBER SIMON: Other than the
15 maintenance, which you probably correctly
16 report in terms of what the association tends
17 to think is possible and not possible.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: So the question is, do
19 we want to keep this hearing open relative to
20 that information?
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, I think so.
22 I think we're a little premature on some
23 things.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think we want to
25 close it just yet.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
h
d
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1 now
e
oesn
t
MEMBER OLIVA: No, cause
2 the septic system and drywells yet. I'd like
3 some information on that Crabbers Road.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, so we will
5 have another hearing, but we'll ask anybody
6 that may or may not be at that hearing if
7 they'd like to speak regarding this
8 application.
9 Thank you, Garrett.
10 MR. STRANG: Thank you.
11 MEMBER OLIVA: Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, would you
13 state your name for the record, please?
14 MR. NICHOLAS: Rich Nicholas (sic)
15 property owner to the right of this property.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Standing in front
17 of the property, you would be to the right?
18 MR. NICHOLAS: Correct.
19 Small house, 900 square feet.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Standing in front
21 of the property looking at the water to the
22 right?
23 MR. NICHOLAS: Correct.
24 I'm concerned. The Southold Town
25 Trustees meeting we had a concern about water
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• l
k i
'
1 oo
n
ve been in there. If you
run-off. We
2 the woods on the property being proposed, you
3 will see normally a swath of about three or
4 four feet of leaves that are, you know, washed
5 aside from previous rainstorms. We've very
6 concerned about clear cutting, which has to
7 happen or I think there would be one tree left
8 between my property and this house. You know,
9 10 feet off my property line, I'll be looking
10 at something that's 42-feet high, that seems
11 kind of bizarre to me.
12 So we have the water run-off issue, we
• 13 have the height of the building issue. I'm
14 very concerned that they're going to be using
15 the basement, you know, will finish the
16 basement. There'll be a walkout again 10 feet
17 off my property. A bunch of other things
18 here, unfortunately, I just got this variance
19 document this morning and didn't really have a
20 chance to look through it, but there's been a
21 lot of apparently the DEC and Southold Town --
22 MEMBER OLIVA: Trustee.
23 MR. NICHOLAS: -- issues that have come
24 up that have been allowed to go by the wayside
25 in regard to developing this property and --
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t
t
GER
I
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1 wan
you
o
CHAIRMAN GOEHRIN
:
jus
2 be aware that we are here not for height.
3 Okay, height is not an issue in this
4 application. I mean I understand you're
5 concerned about height, and that's duly noted,
6 but I just want you to be aware that we're not
7 here for height, it's conforming.
8 MR. NICHOLAS: I understand. Just in my
9 perspective, I'm concerned about it. You
10 know, it would seem to me that maybe if the
11 Building Department did not allow a basement
12 that maybe the foundation wall that I'd have
13 to look at and the overall height could be
14 reduced a little bit, that would help me. I
15 don't know if that's something that's doable
16 or not doable.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: Should we proceed with
18 this proposal, we do have the option, the
19 Board has the option of conditioning a
20 variance relative to asking the applicant to
21 screen from view with very large evergreens
22 that will remain maintained in perpetuity so
23 that you're looking more at a wall of greenery
24 than you are a foundation and that is
25 something we always take into consideration as
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1 an option, especially when there are, you
2 know, proximity and there's no -- privacy
3 becomes an issue because there's no foliage
9 that exists to do that. It's usually more
5 advantageous to do that than a big fence. You
6 know, which is more of a flat surface to look
7 at.
8 How would you feel about that?
9 MR. NICHOLAS: Well, you know, I mean I
10 think that everybody has a right to develop
11 their property. I think in this case what's
12 being requested is way beyond what the size of
13 the envelope can support. As an alternative,
14 you know, obviously greenery would be
15 something that's --
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to
17 speak a little louder.
18 MR. NICHOLAS: Sorry.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You don't
20 necessarily have to restate that, but mainly -
21 -
22 MR. NICHOLAS: Yeah, you know, greenery
23 would be something that's much better than a
24 foundation, obviously, but if some design
25 change of the building could help mitigate the
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• 1 th
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2 acceptable thing to us.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay,
9 MR. NICHOLAS: This meeting is
5 particularly about a variance for the property
6 along Crabbers Road, which I don't know it
7 ever got that name, because it really is just
8 a right of way --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: A driveway.
10 MR. NICHOLAS: -- along the corners of
11 the --
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: It would seem that it's
. 13 a right of way to nowhere.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
15 MR. NICHOLAS: It's a right of way down
16 to the water.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: I walked it and it
18 wasn't going to allow me to go anywhere.
19 MR. NICHOLAS: No, because he blocked it
20 off. So he's --
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: The previous owner who
22 assumed he had the right to do that.
23 MR. NICHOLAS: Exactly it's a driveway
24 and now it's become his.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, therein lies the
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li
t'
th
1 can
s
e app
question that we put to
2 architect, to investigate more fully precisely
3 what is allowable on that right of way.
4 MR. NICHOLAS: So this meeting is about a
5 13-foot variance on that side. I'm wondering
6 how the design got away with a 10-foot
7 variance on my side or a 10-foot setback on my
8 side without the request for a variance.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Because it's a side
10 yard, which is different than a front yard.
11 Crabbers is being treated as a street and
12 anything that fronts on a street is considered
• 13 a front yard even though it's (inaudible), but
14 that's what it is. Corner lots have two front
15 yards. So that's what the variance is all
16 about, it doesn't meet the front principle
17 setback for a front yard.
18 MR. NICHOLAS: So if the definition of
19 Crabbers Road actually ends up being a right
20 of way that's been taken and used by someone,
21 it's not really a street, --
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: By the Building --
23 correct.
24 MR. NICHOLAS: -- what happens to this
25 request?
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'
1 MEMBER WEISMAN: Correct -- I
m sorry?
2 MR. NICHOLAS: What happens to this
3 request then, is it null and void?
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no. The Building
5 Inspector has determined that Crabbers had to
6 be analyzed in terms of setbacks as a front
7 yard and, therefore, it does not comply with
8 the Code-required setback, which is
9 substantially more. Is it 35 feet?
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's 14 feet at one
12 end and 20 feet at the other and the Code
13 requires a 35-foot setback, which would make
14 the house a lot -- it's now 58-feet wide with
15 10 foot on your side. It would squeeze the
16 house much more narrowly that way. That's why
17 they requested a variance.
18 MR. NICHOLAS: Alright.
19 MS. LOPER: My name is Wendy Loper and if
20 you're looking at the -- if you're on the
21 street my house is located two lots down from
22 the property seeking a variance.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On his side or the
24 other side?
25 MS. LOPER: I'm right next door to Rich.
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1 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
2 MS. LOPER: I'm the homeowner next to
3 Rich. My big problem with the structure is,
9 like he side, basically everything has to be
5 cleared. I don't know if everyone has had an
6 opportunity to view the lot from the water.
7 They state in this application that the
8 property is 15 percent wooded. You cannot
9 even see the existing garage from the
10 waterside and that will all disappear because
11 of the size of the building that they're
12 looking to build. I have a real issue with
13 them basically clear cutting the entire
14 property to put up a home.
15 They state here that there is going to be
16 a scenic benefit to the neighbors. If they're
17 home is encompassing all but 25 feet of space
18 collectively on either side, there is no view
19 for anybody but the homeowner, in this case a
20 corporation, the corporation's sole owner are
21 the people that own the house next door.
22 MEMBER SIMON: On the other side?
23 MS. LOPER: Yes, to the left of the
24 property as you're looking at the street.
25 They are the homeowners of that home. The
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h
i
fi
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tti
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1 s
pu
ng ano
er
ouse up
only bene
t o
2 that he can then sell one of those homes.
3 It's purely a pocket motive and he's looking
4 to put the largest home possible by getting a
5 variance from you so he can either occupy the
6 home and sell the one next to it or -- why
7 would anyone have the need to own two homes
8 next door to each other.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: You'd be surprised.
10 MS. LOPER: I might be surprised, but
11 nothing shocks me.
12 They're saying that by tearing out all
. 13 the trees and replacing it with lawn that's
14 going to prevent run-off. How is -- I took
15 pictures of the property this morning. I
16 didn't get a chance to get them developed, but
17 the property is not 15 percent wooded, it's
18 more like 85 percent wooded and I can't see
19 where pouring a concrete foundation that has
20 no permeability to the land and then tearing
21 down all the trees that have established root
22 systems, disturbing wetlands grass to put a
23 path there, I don't see how they claim that
29 that doesn't have an environmental impact and
25 I -- they own a property next door.
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• ticides on
tl
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re cons
an
T
ey
2 the lawn of their existing home, which leads
3 me to believe that if you let them take down
4 all those woodlands and put grass they're
5 going to pesticide that. The lawn is supposed
6 to be closer to the waterfront. There's no
7 more bulkheading, the bulkheading was
8 declined, which means all the pesticides that
9 they're going to apply to that lawn are going
10 into the water. One of the why we bought that
11 home is because the creek is clean. The more
12 we allow people to build on that creek is
13 going to create a problem. We've already seen
'
14 ve been
a fall off in crabs this year. We
15 unable to set up crab traps on our property
16 because there's no crabs and the more we allow
17 people to build and build in excess over what
18 the zoning laws require the more issues we
19 have with things going into the streams that
20 don't belong there.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
22 ask you (inaudible) have an opportunity now to
23 really investigate this application, so we
24 asked you to come back down to the office and
25 take a look at the entire application.
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• of the
I h
LOPER
1 ave a copy
:
MS.
2 application, I got it yesterday and I reviewed
3 it and there are so many fallacies and
4 misstatements in it that I'm appalled
5 actually.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a great
7 opportunity at this time to reduce that to
8 writing, okay?
9 MS. LOPER: Okay.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And submit that at
11 the next hearing.
12 MS. LOPER: Okay.
13 MEMBER SIMON: Prior to the hearing.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Prior to the
15 hearing, excuse me.
16 MS. LOPER: I was just made aware of the
17 hearing recently and my assumption was people
18 were going to be looking at the property and
19 seeing some of the misstatements. I was --
20 have all of you had the chance to walk the
21 property?
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
24 MS. LOPER: Anyone can clearly see that
25 that is not 15 percent wooded property. If
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m the
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ve had an opportun
you
2 water, again you cannot see the structure that
3 exists on that property right now. If it were
4 15 percent wooded you'd be able to see that
5 existing structure and I understand -- we had
6 actually looked at that property as a
7 potential -- the people that owned this home
8 and myself closed at approximately the same
9 time on our homes. One of the reasons why we
10 didn't choose to buy that property and bought
11 the property that we bought instead was
12 because of the small building envelope and,
• 13 being environmentally conscious, I wouldn't
14 have looked for the Board of Trustees to
15 reduce my setback on the wetlands. I wouldn't
16 have reduced it. You knew going into it and
17 that's the one thing that is (inaudible) it is
18 a self-imposed issue and yes it is.
19 They had the right -- they knew going
20 into it that there were certain setback
21 requirements. The owner made it very clear
22 that there was a 35-foot setback on that
23 property when we looked at it. It was made
24 very clear to us that there was a very small
25 building envelope and he has a right to build
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• '
1 m not denying him that right. As a
a home, I
2 homeowner, he has a right to build it, but you
3 as the Zoning Board, he has a right to build a
4 house within those limits and I'm not looking
5 to take away those rights from him, but I am
6 looking to have you guys say, you have the
7 ability to build a smaller home. He's looking
8 for a 20-foot variance. He wants to go from a
9 35-foot setback to a 14-foot setback. There's
10 got to be some middle ground or say hey, you
11 know what, you bought the property. You knew
12 what it was when you bought it and you have a
• 13 right to build a home, but it's a small home.
14 This house is a half an acre. All the
15 houses to either side of him are almost a full
16 acre. I have a 1600 square foot home on 0.9
17 acres, Rich has a 900-square foot home on
18 probably 0.8 acres. He's stating here that
19 the size and scope of his home is consistent
20 with surrounding properties and that's a
21 complete misstatement. His house is going to
22 be twice the size of everything, but the house
23 next door. The house next door is a
24 reasonable size home, I'm not going to deny
25 that, but they also have a reasonable piece of
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No matter
ti
h
l
hi
i
1 on.
e
eva
th very
g
property w
2 what they do to the home there's going to be
3 no impact and I think people really need to
4 look at the properties that are surrounding it
5 and what's going to happen if it's allowed to
6 have this be clear cut.
7 He's got a right to build, but he doesn't
8 have a right to build a 50-foot wide house
9 unless you grant him that right and it really
10 is a privilege and it's something that should
11 be taken into account because of the impact
12 that it's going to create on the environment
13 for the whole town of Southold and that creek.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
15 else?
16 MRS. NICHOLAS: My name is Robin Nicholas
17 (sic) and I'm the owner on the right hand
18 side. My husband spoke earlier.
19 She basically said it all. You know, we
20 don't have a problem with a building -- a home
21 being built there if that property has been
22 granted the right to have a building. At one
23 time it wasn't. That was something that just
24 went through in the last year, I believe, year
25 and a half, but in doing that -- because when
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• 1 we bought our property that was one piece of
2 property and there was no ability to build a
3 house right next to us. We bought our
4 property knowing, you know, that. They get
5 permission to make this a separate piece of
6 land, that's absolutely fine.
7 The impact on our property is huge. I
8 don't think -- I can't -- we have a 900-foot
9 little cottage on our property. We bought it
10 because this is where we want to come to
11 relax. You're talking about putting a massive
12 home in an area that's quiet. There are all
13 kinds of environmental affects of building
14 this house. When we went to the last meeting
15 for the Town, I guess it was --
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The Trustees?
17 MRS. NICHOLAS: Yes. Over and over again
18 it was indicated to everybody that the
19 environmental people said that they couldn't
20 put in a dock. It was let through with some
21 changes. They couldn't put in the walkway.
22 It was put through with some changes. They
23 had to be 100 feet back from the water; they
24 made it 50 feet back from the water. It was -
25 - there were so many little benefits given,
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• for a hu
e
kin
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1 g
g
re as
now you
e an
changes ma
2 house on a small piece of property. I just,
3 you know, I don't understand. We're trying to
4 keep this environmentally safe for all of us
5 and we're trying to keep our property values
6 what they should be and it's -- you know, for
7 lack of a better word -- you know, we live in
8 Nassau County, I'm not trying to come out here
9 to live closer to my neighbors than I do in
10 Nassau County. It's not even -- I understand
11 they have the right to build 10 feet from our
12 property line. That's fine, that's within the
. 13 standard, but that is a right of way and
14 people are unaware that that other street is a
15 right of way because there's no sign posted
16 and the previous owner made that very clear
17 that he didn't want people to know that was a
18 right of way. That's fine, that's, you know,
19 gone by, but now it's out there. Everybody
20 knows that's a right of way, people have the
21 right to go up and down that area to the water
22 and not be going 10 feet from somebody's
23 house.
24 It's just -- I know the height isn't an
25 issue. I do think the square footage is a
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•
LJ
1 huge issue. I think that it's a false
2 representation of what living space really is.
3 This is -- I'm not sure what you said, 19?
4 MR. STRANG: 1900 first floor.
5 MRS. NICHOLAS: First floor, now put it
6 all together. They could say -- if there's
7 storage downstairs that's fine. We all know
8 it's a walk-out. We all know if you look at
9 the drawings, it's 9 feet above grade and
10 that's when they wanted to put the retaining
11 wall that was already going to be higher. You
12 know, it's such -- it's just so abusive that,
13 you know, it's -- when you buy something, you
19 have to live by the rules and if you make some
15 concessions, that's fine, but not to this
16 degree.
17 I would like to put all this in writing,
18 like you said, and if possible, you know, as
19 soon as we could get any information that's
20 coming through for these meetings, you know,
21 we would like to --
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to give
23 you the date today.
24 MRS. NICHOLAS: Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to
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• f
th
th
b
d
1 e reason
or
e
explain to every
o
y
2 writing. You know, we do 12 or 15 hearings in
3 one day. We listen to the tapes, but to have
4 it in handwritten form for you when you're
5 anticipating the deliberation is very
6 important. So this is not, you know, I'm
7 trying to rush you off or something of that
8 nature when I ask you very nice people to
9 reduce your opinion and evaluation of the
10 record in writing. Okay, that's the purpose
11 of it. Okay? It's not a brush-off, it's an
12 important document that we all look at before
• 13 we deliberate on these cases and it refreshes
14 everybody's memory of what you said at the
15 time you presented your portion of the
16 objection.
17 MRS. NICHOLAS: And this is all being
18 recorded, right?
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is all
20 recorded.
21 MRS. NICHOLAS: So you'll have a copy of
22 that, so you can --
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, we have a
24 copy of that, but that's voluminous, okay.
25 It's part of the record, but having each
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ortant and
r
im
i
i
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1 y
p
s ve
n
on
s op
individual
2 that is the reason why I ask you to do that.
3 MRS. NICHOLAS: Wi11 this be printed up
4 what I'm saying right now?
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This'll be printed
6 up, yes.
7 MRS. NICHOLAS: So you will have a
8 written record of what's going on here.
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I know but you are
10 an individual and your information is very
11 important.
12 MEMBER SIMON: Fortunately for the people
13 involved in this, this hearing is going to be
14 conditioned. It's going to be another hearing
15 and while it is absolutely essential that
16 there be the record of that written report, it
17 is in every sense a very good idea. At the
18 hearing these things can be raised, but what I
19 would say for the sake of the future is that
20 the Board will welcome talks from any of a
21 number of people including some of the people
22 who are here today, but it is not necessary to
23 repeat at the next hearing what you're saying
24 now. So that will be taken into account, but
25 I think the fact that there's going to be a
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• ortunit
for
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r o
i
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d h
i
i
1 y
pp
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ur
e
ear
ng
cont
nue
2 people to make their views known and present
3 to the consciousness of those of us who are
4 going to deliberate.
5 MRS. NICHOLAS: I just have -- this is a
6 question. Many of our neighbors are not fu11-
7 time residents. Many of our neighbors are not
8 even aware that this is going on. People that
9 live right across the street, people that
10 live, you know, own properties. What is the
11 procedure with that for --
12 MEMBER OLIVA: Notification?
• 13 MRS. NICHOLAS: Yeah.
19 BOARD ASST.: A lot of notification has
15 been done. It's advertised. There's three
16 notifications. You can spread the word if you
17 know they don't know, spread the word, because
18 the notice is for mailing. The legal notice
19 has been published and also the sign has been
20 posted and that's all that's required by law
21 for this.
22 MRS. NICHOLAS: Mailings to where though?
23 BOARD ASST.: To the adjacent owners per
29 Code. It's all done per Code.
25 MRS. NICHOLAS: But we don't have --
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1 BOARD ASST.: Adjacent, adjacent and
2 across the street.
3 MEMBER SIMON: Contiguous property, not
4 the whole neighborhood.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Some contiguous,
6 some adjacent.
7 BOARD ASST.: The neighborhood gets it
8 through the sign posting and the word of
9 mouth. So --
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: If you know any of the
11 other neighbors or how to contact them, this
12 is a public hearing open to all concerned
13 parties whether they are right next door or
14 down the block.
15 MRS. NICHOLAS: Okay.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: And so a part of what we
17 want to do is incorporate as much information
18 as possible. If you'd like to notify them of
19 the hearing, if they're unable to be present
20 but want to make their point of view known, in
21 support or unsupported whatever they feel,
22 they have every right to put it in writing.
23 They can send a letter to the office and it
24 will become part of the file, part of the
25 record. So you might want to let others be
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
• f
h
t
1 aware o
t
a
.
2 MRS. NICHOLAS: I just didn't know how
3 many, you know --
4 BOARD ASST.: We've met the requirements
5 of the Code so far, but now we're (inaudible).
6 MRS. NICHOLAS: Okay.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. I would
8 like to adjourn this hearing at this time
9 unless there is some -- Yes, Garrett?
10 MR. STRANG: Can I just make response to
11 some of the --
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure, go ahead. Of
13 course.
14 MR. STRANG: -- comments now, please?
15 Thank you. I'll start with Mr. Nicholas'
16 original comments about run-off issues. As
17 you're all aware or should be, including your
18 neighbors, everyone now is responsible to
19 maintain run-off on their own property and we
20 fully intending on doing that as with respect
21 to the discussion earlier of drywells and
22 things of that nature. The primary run-off
23 issue that was brought up at the Trustees
24 hearing and continues to exist is road run-off
25 that the Town is not properly managing. It
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
d
t
h
i
1 ng an
a
ear
was addressed at the Trustees
2 the -- the Trustees actually informed Mr.
3 Nicholas that his best avenue of pursuit is to
4 take it up with the Town. It wasn't a problem
5 of his and it wasn't a problem of my client,
6 it was a Town problem that the water was not
7 being properly managed and it was running down
8 between the two properties. So that's an
9 avenue to deal with for that particular issue.
10 As far as our development, we'll maintain all
11 our run-off on the property so that it is Code
12 compliant.
13 The building height, obviously, is
14 nowhere near as high as it could be. We know
15 that the Code allows up to a 35-foot mean
16 building height. The highest point of the
17 ridge, in our case, to the lowest point of the
18 property is only 37. It could be considerably
19 higher if we were to use that mean average.
20 We're not trying to do that. We're trying to
21 be aware and sensitive to the neighbors and
22 the neighborhood and still do something that's
23 usable for the client.
24 With respect to Ms. Loper's comments,
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
discussed this
lr
ad
'
d
1 .
y
we
ve a
e
yes, I agree an
2 A fair amount of existing wooded area would
3 have to be taken down to build up what we have
4 to do, but the percentage that's heavily
5 wooded and that's the definition that's used
6 in the application, how much is heavily
7 wooded, I think that 15 percent is a
8 relatively good representation of what's
9 heavily wooded. There is additional
10 outcroppings of shrubs, trees, individual
11 trees, which is an additional percentage. Of
12 course there's the wooded area adjacent to the
13 wetlands, which has to remain. That's
14 untouched, that was something that we offered
15 in our application to the Trustees that we
16 would maintain a 50-foot non-disturbance
17 buffer from the wetlands. So any of the trees
18 and shrubs and whatever that exists in that
19 area will remain untouched.
20 The speculation that my client is going
21 to sell the house is just that and I don't
22 think that has any bearing on the issue here
23 at all. You know, he's a long term resident.
24 He's lived out here since childhood as a part-
25 time resident. He has additional family
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• 1 members that live out here as well as the fact
2 that he has a large family that has several --
3 not a large extended family, but immediate.
4 He has seven children and this may just - he
5 may consider this to be a family compound and
6 have more than one family home there in that
7 area.
8 I don't think that we're overdeveloping
9 that lot at all. I think we're being
10 relatively sensitive to it. The size of the
11 house again is, I think, in keeping with the
12 neighborhood, not necessarily the immediate
13 neighbors who prefer to have a smaller home
14 and that's certainly, you know, their
15 prerogative to do that. You know, there's a
16 house, I believe, immediately next to Ms.
17 Loper's house and it's probably larger than
18 what we're proposing. There's the house two
19 lots to the south of this, which is
20 considerably larger, as well as several homes
21 right across the street that are considerably
22 larger. So I don't think we're overdeveloping
23 at all.
24 Lastly, with respect to Mrs. Nicholas'
25 comments with respect to that lot being
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• It was
ver unbuildable
bl
it
b
ild
1 .
was ne
e,
un
u
a
2 always a single and separate lot. It always
3 had the ability to be developed, i.e. the
4 garage that was already on it. So if they
5 were informed when they bought their property
6 that no one could build on that property then
7 unfortunately they were misinformed.
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need to ask you a
9 question, Mr. Strang, if you don't mind.
10 MR. STRANG: Sure.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How long is it
12 going to take you to get this information
13 regarding the right of way?
14 MR. STRANG: The most difficult one is
15 just that. The right of way because I don't
16 know what history there is available on that.
17 We'll have to search that out to see what the
18 situation is with respect to that.
19 BOARD ASST.: Would three weeks be enough
20 time for September or would you like October?
21 MR. STRANG: I think we'll have to go to
22 October because there's a week in September
23 I'll be away myself.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can you give me a
25 date in October?
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• 1 BOARD ASST.: Yes, Thursday, October 18th,
2 I believe it is.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, it's October --
4 it's the 25th I believe.
5 BOARD ASST.: September 25.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's much later in
7 the month.
g BOARD ASST.: I don't have a calendar.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to give
10 you the date now so you can -- I think it's
11 the 26.
12 BOARD ASST.: It's September 25th and then
• 13 it's October 30.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: October 30th, the
15 day before Halloween.
16 MR. STRANG: October 30th is fine with me.
17 BOARD ASST.: We're just going to ask for
18 that about a week before, please.
19 MR. STRANG: I beg your pardon.
20 BOARD ASST.: The (inaudible), a week
21 before that meeting, please, the deadline.
22 MR. STRANG: Now, exactly what is the
23 Board looking for resubmittal? So I'm --
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Our whole list.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, well that's a
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ti
d
1 on.
ques
goo
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Let's sum it up. I
3 would say there's two things. One is the
4 information regarding what Crabbers Road may
5 or may not be used for and by whom.
6 MR. STRANG: Um-hmm.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, whether that's
8 a part of an association's use, whether it
9 should be opened up legally to access to the
10 water for neighbors --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm mainly
12 concerned to see if there are any descriptive
. 13 easements that this person had regarding their
14 use of the road. It appears they used it for
15 a long period of time.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. So whether or
17 not there was some opportunity that your
18 client has to use that right of way
19 exclusively or not, that's one thing. Another
20 aspect would be based upon what we heard here
21 and what you know will be forthcoming. If you
22 want to talk to your client about any possible
23 amended site plan, you may or may not choose
24 to do so, but you've heard the benefit of, you
25 know, people's reaction and the Board
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1 considers all aspects of an application. So
2 there may be some consideration you want to
3 give to some amended site plan. If that's so,
4 that would be useful for us to have in advance
5 of the hearing and then anyone also who is
6 concerned about it could come to the office
7 and see if there's any additional information
8 there. So I would be happy with those two --
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is everybody else
10 happy with that? Yes? Okay.
11 BOARD ASST.: There was a question about
12 drywells, did you need that?
13 MEMBER OLIVA: Well, he has to comply
14 with a drainage plan.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you're going to
16 have to do that, but if --
17 MEMBER OLIVA: We'd like to see where
18 they would be.
19 MR. STRANG: I will amend the map to show
20 at the least the drywells and the sanitary
21 system.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What about a
23 landscape plan?
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes. If you're going to
25 do that much clear cutting, I think you really
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• hbors'
for the nei
i
l
l
d
d
1 g
ng p
an
an
scap
nee
a
2 sake.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I offer that
4 as a resolution to adjourn the meeting to
5 October 30th and we will give you a time on
6 that if you call the office.
7 BOARD ASST.: I can give you a time now.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to give
9 you a time now, just wait one second.
10 BOARD ASST.: 1:30.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:30 in the
12 afternoon, 1:30 p.m.
. 13 BOARD ASST.: Three items then.
'
14 s actually four.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Four. Crabbers
16 Road, septic site plan, landscaping plan,
17 drainage plan.
18 BOARD ASST.: And the drywells.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, that you put on
20 the landscape plan.
21 MR. STRANG: The drywell and the septic
22 system will be on the new site plan. We'll do
23 the Crabbers Road research and the landscape
29 plan.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
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Ok
MR
STRANG
1 ay.
.
:
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I offer that as a
3 resolution.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
5 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
7 HEARING #6181 - Ronald F. and
8 Marilyn A. Gallagher
9 MEMBER SIMON:
10 ~~Request for a Variance under Sections
11 280-12 and 280-121a, based on the Building
12 Inspector's April 9, 2008 Notice of
. 13 Disapproval concerning proposed addition(s)
19 and alterations to an existing nonconforming
15 accessory cottage. The reasons stated in the
16 Building Inspector's Notice of Disapproval
17 are: The building shall not be enlarged,
18 altered, extended, reconstructed or restored
19 or replaced on a different portion of the lot
20 or parcel of land occupied by such use nor
21 shall any external evidence of such use be
22 increased by any means whatsoever, and (2)
23 One-family detached dwellings, not to exceed
24 one dwelling on each lot. Location: 2950
25 Vanston Road, Cutchogue; CTM 111-5-7.2."
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ll
h
M
G
i
1 er or
ag
te Mr. or
rs.
a
I would inv
2 their representative and we'll have questions
3 subsequent to that.
4 MR. GALLAGHER: Okay, I'm Ron Gallagher.
5 I am the applicant.
6 What we're requesting is just to put up a
7 second garage.
8 MEMBER SIMON: Now, the question is this
9 the garage will be connected to a first garage
10 which is connected to a secondary dwelling.
11 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
12 MEMBER SIMON: I would like to know
• 13 something about the history of that second
14 dwelling unit, when it was built. I looked
15 through the records and it was unclear to me
16 what was built when.
17 MR. GALLAGHER: The best we can determine
18 is 1925.
19 MEMBER SIMON: Including the accessory
20 building?
21 MR. GALLAGHER: The accessory building.
22 MEMBER SIMON: The accessory building as
23 well as the house. I know the house goes back
24 --
25 MR. GALLAGHER: No, the house has had
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•
1 many additions. So --
2 MEMBER SIMON: No, what I'm saying the
3 original house pre-exists zoning since
4 (inaudible).
5 MR. GALLAGHER: Oh yeah.
6 MEMBER SIMON: What you're saying is the
7 accessory building does too?
8 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
9 MEMBER SIMON: Okay. I have no further
10 questions at this time. I may reserve the
11 right to ask some more later on. I would
12 defer to my colleagues.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: It would appear that
14 that one-car garage that has a small guest
15 quarters in it needs a new roof anyway. It
16 looks like to me. All you want to do is put
17 another -- you know, expand the one-car garage
18 into a two-car garage.
19 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: You already have a
21 parking space right next to it. You're simply
22 making a new larger roof and a wall.
23 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and two doors
25 instead of one door. I honestly don't see any
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I understand
i
th
t
d
b
d
b
1 ng
a
.
y
y
o
impact on any
o
2 legally why it was noticed the way it was. It
3 had to be described that way, but -- you're
4 going to be losing your tomato patch it looks
5 like.
6 MEMBER SIMON: If I may follow-up. Is it
7 your view that the Notice of Disapproval
8 simply failed to notice what you are legally
9 entitled to, namely the maintenance of that
10 particular property, as defined by the Code?
11 In other words, as far as the Building
12 Department is concerned your argument is as
. 13 far as the Notice of Approval -- the
14 Disapproval is concerned the existence of this
15 accessory cottage has nothing to do with this
16 application.
17 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: A follow-up question.
19 You have no intention of expanding the living
20 quarters?
21 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, in so far as the
23 car is not a breathable human being, it's
24 unheated, it's unfinished.
25 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
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Oka
thank
Gara
e
MEMBER WEISMAN
1 g
.
y,
:
2 you.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: On the plans where
4 it reads 19.75 feet by 30.51 or 30.5 that is
5 encompassing both garages or is that the
6 actual --
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's an expanded
8 garage, not another garage.
9 MR. GALLAGHER: Not another garage,
10 right.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to make that
12 clear, he's not building another garage, he's
13 expanding one car into two car.
14 BOARD ASST.: Do we have a total square
15 footage of the entire garage area?
16 Everything.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's 30.5 feet
18 times 19.75. Is that correct Mr. Gallagher?
19 MR. GALLAGHER: That's correct.
20 MEMBER SIMON: And how much of that is
21 the addition?
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
23 MEMBER SIMON: How many square feet,
24 cause it's on in the papers, is the addition
25 itself?
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ti
n
Th
lti
li
MAN GOEHRINGER
1 e mu
p
ca
o
:
CHAIR
2 of those two numbers.
3 MEMBER SIMON: That includes the original
9 garage though.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, no.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: No it doesn't. No, it
7 doesn't. This is what's been added it's 30.5
8 feet by 19.75 feet. Alright, that's a bay for
9 a second garage -- a second car rather.
10 MEMBER OLIVA: Here's your picture.
11 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: This is there, this is
• 13 what's being added. The picture shows where
14 it's going to be added.
15 MEMBER SIMON: 19.5 feet is the new
16 garage --
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's more like 17
18 feet.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it's the width.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
21 BOARD ASST.: The existing garage is 17.8
22 inches. That exists. You're replacing the
23 existing garage also?
24 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
25 BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
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littl
t
bl
I h
d
IVA
1 rou
e
a
a
e
MEMBER OL
:
2 deciding which driveway to go down, but I
3 found you. No, I don't have any questions.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let's see what
5 develops through the hearing, Mr. Gallagher.
6 Is there anyone else who would like to speak
7 in favor or against this application?
8 Okay, the garage, Mr. Gallagher will have
9 the utility of electricity and that's it?
10 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No heat, no air
12 conditioning, no --
• 13 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- play room. No
15 romper room?
16 MR. GALLAGHER: Correct. Table tennis
17 (inaudible) me.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, any other
19 further questions from the Board?
20 Hearing no further questions I'll make a
21 motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
22 to later.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
24 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
1 HEARING #6187 - Ryan and Jennifer Stork
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The legal notice
3 reads as follows:
4 "Request for Variances under Sections
5 280-116 and 280-124, based on the Building
6 Inspector's May 15, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
7 concerning a proposed new dwelling (after
8 demolishing the existing building). The new
9 dwelling is proposed at less tan 15 feet on a
10 single side yard, less than 35 feet on total
11 side yards, and less than 75 feet from the
12 existing bulkhead adjacent to Great Peconic
13 Bay. Location of Property is 3270 Peconic Bay
19 Boulevard, Laurel; CTM 128-6-8."
15 It appears this fine gentleman is before
16 us.
17 MEMBER OLIVA: Would you like to tell us
18 what this is about?
19 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm Jim Fitzgerald
20 representing Mr. and Mrs. Stork.
21 First some housekeeping, we received
22 yesterday a copy of the assessment from
23 (inaudible) based upon the requirements of the
29 LWRP, which indicated that there were
25 discrepancies as far as the setback behind the
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l
d th
t
ith
d
d I
lkh
d i
1 ve
a
w
s concerne
an
reso
ea
bu
2 the Building Department and they issued a new
3 Disapproval Notice and I believe that Damon
9 may have given a copy of it to Linda, I have
5 an additional eight copies.
6 BOARD ASST.: You said you just gave
7 Linda a copy. I'm sorry, I just --
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're getting it
9 now.
10 BOARD ASST.: We're just getting it now.
11 The Notice of Disapproval.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Damon said yesterday he
. 13 was going to give you a copy.
14 BOARD ASST.: I don't have it, just for
15 the record because we're being recorded.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. You will see from
18 the map that the map that we have submitted to
19 you indicates that the setback from the
20 bulkhead is 53 feet. Mark's letter indicated
21 that his on site activities showed it at 34
22 feet, but I think he was measuring from the
23 retaining wall.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, okay.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: I have confirmed through
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a 1 nt that the retainin
ildi
D
t
th
B
g
ng
epar
me
e
u
2 wall is indeed a retaining wall and not a
3 bulkhead.
4 MEMBER OLIVA: This is up here and that's
5 down there.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: And that their procedure
7 for measuring setbacks is from the closest
8 point of the structure to the point where the
9 property line crosses the bulkhead so that
10 it's the distance on the property between the
11 house and the bulkhead, not on the property
12 next to it.
13 I frequently, after these hearings, I say
'
14 d covered some
gee I'd said that or I wish I
15 other points. So in order to minimize the
16 possibility of that happening again I would
17 like to read for you a speech, if you will,
18 outlining our position in this regard and I
19 have provided copies for each of you, if you
20 would. I'm going to read it over and give you
21 this.
22 Before I start, let me say that we have
23 with us the architect, Richard Mato, who will
24 discuss with you any questions you have about
25 the structure itself. Between the two of us
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U
~J
1 is Mrs. Stork who is also here.
2 The proposed house, although
3 significantly different in style from the
4 existing house, is similar in style and size
5 to the two houses which now exist on the
6 adjoining properties. The proposed structure
7 is two stories in height, but this is not
8 unusual for the many expanded or rebuilt
9 houses on Peconic Bay Boulevard throughout its
10 length.
11 The benefit sought to be permitted to
12 build a new house with the same setback from
13 the bulkhead as the existing house and with
14 slightly smaller side yard setbacks, is
15 required to accommodate the proposed structure
16 on this lot, which is only 42 feet wide. The
17 current zoning regulations require the total
18 of side yard setbacks to be at least 35 feet
19 in this R-40 district, leaving 7 feet for the
20 house. The house we are proposing is only 32
21 feet wide and from a design standpoint it is
22 felt that any further reduction of its width
23 would result in a structure that in the future
29 would bear the burden of being considered
25 "unusual". Additional footprint area, as
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• i
ll
i
1 compared to the existing dwell
ng,
s a
2 gained on the road side of the building, but
3 is limited in that direction because of the
4 existence of a large detached accessory
5 structure, which I'm sure we'll talk about
6 later.
7 It should be considered that the unusual
8 shape of essentially all the properties in
9 this neighborhood, and which is shared to a
10 lesser extent with many throughout the Town,
11 is such that the portion of the property
12 within which the dwelling is located has the
• 13 width characteristics of a much smaller lot,
14 and thus the side yard setbacks imposed are
15 more suitable for a lot of "ordinary"
16 proportions. In this case it could be
17 suggested that the logical and reasonable side
18 yards should probably be 10 feet and 25 feet
19 total, which is the next step down in the non-
20 conforming lot table of the Code. We are, of
21 course, proposing less than that, but the
22 relief sought, based upon the predominant lot
23 configurations, is not unreasonable.
24 The proposed house is essentially the
25 same distance from the bulkhead as that of the
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1 existing house. The existing house presumably
2 met the zoning requirements, if any, when it
3 was constructed. Many houses in the area
4 which have been rebuilt or renovated are
5 closer to the bulkhead and side property lines
6 than current Code requirements. The distance
7 between the proposed house and the house to
8 the west is 29 feet, which is one foot less
9 than it would be if a minimum permissible Code
10 setback of 15 feet existed on each property.
11 Presumably separation between dwellings is
12 what side yard setbacks are all about. With
• 13 regard to the structures to the east, it is
14 apparent that the owner of that property is
15 not concerned with the separation between
16 structures on adjacent properties since three
17 separate structures on that property exist
18 with side yard setbacks at, or close to, zero
19 feet.
20 Concerning the setback from the bulkhead,
21 the only waterfront house in the vicinity
22 which is set back 75 feet from the bulkhead is
23 the house on the adjacent property to the
24 west. If a line is drawn through the most
25 seaward part of the houses in the area (not
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l
t
th
i
1 oser
o
e
ch are even c
the decks, wh
2 bulkhead), it is a relatively straight line
3 and is about 50 feet landward of the bulkhead.
4 I have a computer generated bird's eye view
5 showing that with the line that I'm talking
6 about and the Stork residence existing. It
7 should be noted that the owner of the property
8 to the west did not apply for a variance to
9 allow construction closer to the bulkhead,
10 presumably preferring the greater distance.
11 It is important to consider the geography
12 of the neighborhood with regard to the manner
. 13 in which it was subdivided. Section 128 of
14 the Suffolk County Tax Map includes 77 lots
15 between Peconic Bay Boulevard and Great
16 Peconic Bay. Of these, 24 lots are bounded by
17 both the Boulevard and the Bay. Of the total
18 of 77 lots, none meet the 150-foot minimum
19 width requirement of the Bulk Schedule. This
20 means that for all practical purposes, all the
21 lots in the area described are non-conforming,
22 but the neighborhood seems to have gotten
23 along very well even with this shared burden.
24 The point being that it is impractical to
25 apply standards developed for "ordinary" or
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I
th
th
t
l" l
h
~~
1 mean
ose
a
are
ots. By t
at
usua
2 more square and less long and narrow. The
3 lots obviously laid out to maximize the number
4 of waterfront sites. Having the side property
5 lines at an angle to the shoreline increases
6 the length of the shoreline compared to the
7 actual width of the property. It perhaps
8 should have been a separate district, and we
9 should not be trying to squeeze it back into
10 the R-90 numbers in the bulk schedule.
11 The footprint of the proposed house
12 essentially maintains the existing setbacks
13 from the property lines and the bulkhead, and
14 the use of the property for a single-family
15 residence will be unchanged. Under similar
16 circumstances, many houses in the larger
17 neighborhood have been renovated and expanded
18 by adding the second story, whether or not the
19 original dwelling was completely demolished or
20 built upon, and so the waterfront-ness and
21 character of the neighborhood will be
22 unchanged by your approval of the variance we
23 seek.
24 That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nicely written, but
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• V
i
l
itt
i
h i
'
1 en.
ery n
ce
y wr
t agree w
t
t.
I don
2 MEMBER OLIVA: The side yards are so
3 close. You know, it's -- how are you going to
4 get any emergency equipment around there?
5 MR. FITZGERALD: You can affect -- the
6 same way you get it there now and that is --
7 MEMBER OLIVA: How's that?
8 MR. FITZGERALD: You don't or you drive
9 it through the Romanelli's back yard. The
10 problem is that, and this came up in another
11 project that I had some time ago, and you
12 required that I discuss with the Southold Fire
• 13 Department, which I did, and it turned out
14 that it worked out well. If -- the problem
15 would be that regardless of the side yard
16 setbacks of the structure that we're talking
17 about the layout of the other building on the
18 property is such that there would be two right
19 angle turns required for any equipment to get
20 to the waterside of the house.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: You're going to leave that
22 other structure up?
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the short answer is
24 yes. That will be the subject of further
25 applications at a --
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN: Discussions?
2 MR. FITZGERALD: -- later date.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we thought we
5 wanted to get this going first, but there are
6 no plans to remove that accessory structure.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: Can I just ask you, Jim,
8 it's mostly a garage with an apartment above
9 it?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
11 MEMBER OLIVA: It looked to me as though
12 there is a garage with an apartment in front
13 of it with a porch.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: We have a CO for that
15 building, which is referred to --
16 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: -- as an accessory
18 structure. It has room for a car and the CO
19 indicates two sleeping spaces and a half bath.
20 So we jealously guard the CO.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: I thank you for the stakes
22 to see how far the house was going to be
23 pushed back. Is there any chance of pushing
24 the house a little further back from the
25 bulkhead/retaining wall?
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r1
U
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER OLIVA:
Yeah, we would --
It's 42-93 feet now,
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
right?
MR. FITZGERALD: It's 52 feet from the
bulkhead.
MEMBER OLIVA
MR. FITZGERALD:
MEMBER OLIVA:
MR. FITZGERALD
MEMBER OLIVA:
bulkhead. Okay.
MR. FITZGERALD:
From the what?
What?
52 from the what?
From the bulkhead.
Oh, from the bottom
The top bulkhead is the
retaining wall.
MEMBER OLIVA: Oh, okay. I see.
MR. FITZGERALD: All things are possible.
We would certainly prefer not to and that's
why I'm showing you that most of the houses in
that area are setback that distance from the
water.
MEMBER OLIVA: I understand that, Jim,
but you know times have changed.
MR. FITZGERALD: That's right, but I
thought that we are going to be -- should be
attempting to change that whole neighborhood
one house at a time. Somebody figures that
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't
1925
t i
il
i
1 sn
jus
t
n
the cottage that was bu
2 big enough anymore.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: The house next to you on
9 the right they built the house at least 75
5 feet back, period, to alleviate any trouble
6 with us or to anybody else. They put it back
7 where it should be.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry?
9 MEMBER OLIVA: The house to the west.
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes?
11 MEMBER OLIVA: That was built what, 75 or
12 100 feet back from the --
13 MR. FITZGERALD: It's 75 feet back.
14 MEMBER OLIVA: 75 feet.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: The point I make is not
16 that they wanted to -- my impression is that
17 they didn't want to build it closer because
18 they didn't apply for a variance.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Either that or they
20 simply respected the new LWRP Code
21 requirements.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yeah, for whatever
29 reason they're happy with that (inaudible) now
25 and it's lovely.
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U
U
1 MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me. It's one thing
2 to say that a person who decides to comply
3 with the Code is thereby exercising the option
4 not to ask for an exception to the Code.
5 That's a little bit different than the way you
6 put it.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just want to deal
8 with some parameters of side yard before we
9 even get into setbacks.
10 MEMBER OLIVA: I'm concerned about it.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I might be able to
12 live with 7-1/2 feet on the west side, I may.
13 MR. FITZGERALD: On which side?
19 MEMBER OLIVA: On the west side.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I may be able
16 to live with 5.5 straight on the east side,
17 okay.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: Straight, meaning?
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Without the jogs
20 that are in the proposed new house.
21 MR. FITZGGERALD: Without the chimney?
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, (inaudible)
23 encompassing the house. I think, I gotta have
29 5 feet clean cause that's what you gotta have.
25 You gotta be able to put a ladder on your
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h
d th
t'
k
1 on your own
ouse an
a
s
property and wor
2 just an opinion. As for the 7-1/2 foot side,
3 this is just me this is not the Board, that
4 would provide probably the absolute least
5 minimum access and I didn't do this because I
6 know people on the west side or any other sort
7 of reason, it is the greatest area based upon
8 the diagonal when you get to the water if you
9 need to bring equipment on and if you need to
10 deal with it on an emergency basis. Alright?
11 That is very simply the dragging of hoses to
12 the front of the structure, which is of course
• 13 the waterside. We know the front of the
14 structure is really there, but what everybody
15 would like to consider the front of the
16 structure on an architectural basis, as being
17 the waterside.
18 I'm just going to throw that out and we
19 will discuss this setback aspect as we proceed
20 through and I shall go through to my
21 (inaudible) colleague, Mr. Michael Simon.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: I agree with Gerry about
23 the side yard, cause I walked through that and
24 that's pretty tight now.
25 MEMBER SIMON: Right. In fact, one of
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'
1 s
the nice aspects of this following Gerry
2 remark, is since the house isn't yet built we
3 needn't make an exception for the chimney
4 jutting out from the house. So the idea of
5 having a flush side of the house is not
6 unrealistic or insisting on it, and the fact
7 that it's only the chimney that juts out
8 doesn't really carry a whole lot of weight
9 because we're dealing with a blank slate.
10 On a general question, I appreciate there
11 is a penchant even in the Code and in Town
12 policy, but on the one hand there is a general
• 13 overriding view that we should not -- we
14 should be reducing the non-conforming
15 properties rather than simply extending them
16 because they've always been there. On the
17 other hand there are certain legitimate
18 exceptions that are made. One of course is
19 any of the various forms of grandfathering.
20 Another one which is closer, is the case where
21 you invent -- you avoid a variance or a front
22 yard setback upon a non-waterfront property
23 based on the fact that the houses nearby also
29 have similar non-conforming setbacks.
25 That's an aesthetic consideration and a
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• i
hi
h
h
1 at you
on, w
c
says t
convenience considerat
2 should be able to build as far out as the rest
3 of your neighbors have done if you're going to
4 do an addition on your house. However, this
5 is added to the additional problem that we're
6 not dealing with a street in the interior of
7 the island, but we're dealing with the
8 waterfront in which case there are fairly good
9 reasons why the encouragement of continued
10 reduced setbacks is not really an
11 uncontroversial idea and as you know we've had
12 a number of cases where people have tried to
. 13 rebuild even demolished houses which were 30
19 feet from the bay because all their neighbors
15 had it that way and, in fact, all their
16 neighbors are out there saying they should be
17 able to do it and so that we could do it.
18 So we're in a bind here. The bind here
19 is that we already have a house which is very
20 deep and the only argument really for putting
21 it as close to the bulkhead as the previous
22 one is well we're conforming with all of our
23 non-conforming neighbors. I'm not sure how
24 persuasive we're going to find that. We
25 disagree among ourselves as to how we're going
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i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
to deal with this. So I think this is a kind
of problem.
If you have the advantage of starting
from scratch with a new house and the
disadvantage of not being able to lean very
heavily on what has been done in the past or
what your neighbors did in the past and what
options they (inaudible). That's just a
general statement expressing my -- some of my
doubts about how persuasive the argument would
be is well all the other people do it and it's
no worse than it used to be. That's my only
question -- comment.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie?
MEMBER WEISMAN: First I want to clarify
something if I might. You indicated in your
application and your statement that the
property is 42 feet wide.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
58.4 on the road side
The survey shows it at
Am I reading that
correctly?
MR. FITZGERALD: The Building Department
has specifically indicated in response to my
questions, when measuring the width of a
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1 th
it
di
l
t
th
t
proper
ey measure
perpen
cu
ar
o
e
y
2 side property line. Of course that's what
3 defines the space that's available.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: Alright.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: I want it clarified for
6 the record because the survey says one thing
7 and the Building Department is measuring it
8 through here. Okay. So that's an important
9 distinction.
10 My only comment about the plan you
11 propose, it's one thing when somebody has all
12 kinds of nonconformity and takes advantage of
• 13 the building in place and in kind, you know,
19 something that's already existing. It's quite
15 another when you start (inaudible) with a
16 demo. I do understand that there are some
17 restrictions. I understand why you would not
18 want to demolish the existing accessory
19 structure because it does have apparently
20 legal living space, which is very difficult to
21 come by. I can appreciate that and you may
22 want to renovate it in the future, whatever,
23 probably will need that, but as skillful as
24 these plans and elevations are and I do admire
25 them. They're very logical, straightforward,
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e rooms
rribl
lar
ith
t t
l h
ll
t
1 y
g
,
w
no
e
cen
ra
a
2 widthwise, I still feel that the side -- you
3 know, to reduce the very small side yards that
4 are there now even further, in other words, by
5 making them smaller side yards where they're
6 building, is really a kind of overstepping
7 what I think is an appropriate response. I
8 was shocked to find the fact that the house on
9 one -- not the Romanelli property, the one on
10 the other side is literally on, you know, it's
11 right at the fence. I mean there's a zero,
12 but the bluff runs at an angle, a diagonal, so
• 13 all those setbacks are slightly different
14 depending on, you know, how far away that
15 angle runs from the bluff.
16 I think that I'd like to see wider side
17 yards and certainly no less than what's there
18 now and set it back as far as you possibly can
19 without colliding completely with the
20 accessory structure, at the very least. I
21 think it will enhance the neighborhood. It's
22 certainly an attractive house that is not
23 overbearing in size or anything like that, but
24 the footprint has got to be a little bit more,
25 I think, responsive to what was there
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ildi
diffi
lt b
'
1 ng
cu
u
s a very
previously. It
2 site. It's a shoestring. It's almost like a
3 pole on a flag lot. So granted the envelope
4 is very, very narrow.
5 I don't buy the argument that less than
6 what did you say 32 feet in width is going to
7 create a house that's "unusual" for resale
8 purposes. I think, you know, you have a lot
9 that has its characteristics and its limits
10 and its potential and you work with that. I
11 don't know what that means to say "unusual".
12 MEMBER SIMON: Maybe it means unique.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: Maybe smaller.
14 MEMBER SIMON: If you called it unique it
15 would sound as though it would increase its
16 attractiveness, instead of unusual.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: So --
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So what would you
19 like to do?
20 MEMBER OLIVA: I'd like to pull it back.
21 MR. FITZGERALD: I'd like to comment.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sure.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: One of the things that
24 keeps coming up in my mind is the concept of
25 things that are bad for the environment. The
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r ~
~J
1 DEC has a way of using a vague generality and
2 Mr. Hamilton there is addicted to the phrase
3 "adverse impact on the environment". He'd
4 deny it because it was an adverse impact on
5 the environment, but nobody ever says, what do
6 you mean exactly?
7 So, if I may, I would like to say to you
8 as a Board, what do you mean when you say we
9 should move this house further back so it will
10 have less impact on the environment? In what
11 way? That's what I don't understand. I think
12 that putting this house that we're proposing
13 up let us say on as far as the seaward side is
19 concerned -- this is what it's like for a
15 priest on Sunday, he just keeps talking -- on
16 the seaward side how if we have -- how it
17 would be better, as far as the environment is
18 concerned, if we were to move it back 5 feet
19 or 10 feet or 50 feet? So is it appropriate
20 for me to ask the Board --
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it is.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'll answer from a
24 different perspective, which is that we are
25 here as a body to attempt to grant the most
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1 i
i
l
i
th
t
bl
d
m
n
ma
var
ances
a
we can reasona
y
o.
2 Our job is to create the least nonconformity
3 that is possible.
4 You know, safety and access is one reason
5 for side yard, privacy for neighbors is
6 another reason for side yards. Those may or
7 may not, depending on the topography, affect
8 the environment or not, you know. Setback
9 from the bulkhead is described by law on the
10 basis of what we would like to see as greater
11 environmental science teaches us and our task
12 is to uphold the Code as much as possible
13 while also granting to property owners
14 reasonable variances.
15 So from my point of view, the impact here
16 are primarily impacts that have to do with
17 creating the least nonconformity we can and
18 that's why I certainly suggest that since
19 you're building from scratch to reduce what
20 are already extremely nonconforming side yards
21 even further, I have some problems with. So
22 it's more about granting those variances,
23 because you're going to have to put in
24 drywells, you're going to have to comply with
25 Code intensive sanitary system and so on and
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1 i
thi
it
ti
f
th
t'
it
h
so
n
s s
ua
on
or me,
a
s my
c
.
2 MEMBER SIMON: I'd like to add something
3 to what Leslie said. Your question is a very
4 good one. How can it adversely affect the
5 environment if one or two houses are made to
6 conform when all the other ones are closer?
7 The answer is it's part of a general
8 issue, which is what we're concerned with,
9 what the Code is concerned with. There are
10 good environmental reasons adverse affects why
11 the setback is at say 75 feet rather than 20
12 feet. Now, you can argue that making one new
• 13 house setback to the Code is not really going
14 to affect the environment. The problem is
15 we're dealing with part of a large policy.
16 It's pretty much like the policy against
17 littering. One person's littering isn't going
18 to adversely affect the environment, but the
19 law that says nobody litters has to be applied
20 uniformly subject to constraints. So it's --
21 the answer I think you're looking for is that
22 this has to do with trying to make, gradually
23 over time, the entire pattern consistent with
24 the environmentally friendly rule and if it
25 doesn't seem to make any difference to the
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1 first person on whom the rule is applied
2 because of circumstances that's the way it
3 goes. There's no alternative as far as I can
4 see.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: I would say that an
6 environmental issue (inaudible) in the rule of
7 75 feet back. It's for all the run-off that
8 comes of the roofs, off your fertilizer on
9 your lawns, and what have you, ends up going
10 into the bay. We are destroying the quality
11 of the water in all the bays. You're just one
12 person. I mean they're doing it all over, and
13 what we're trying to do is to trying to
19 alleviate that because if we poison our bays
15 people are not going to come out here to swim
16 or anything else and they are, if you read in
17 the paper, gradually all over the country this
18 is happening. So that is why these rules were
19 initiated to keep things as far back from the
20 shoreline as possible.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I agree with what
22 everyone has said, but mine is a little more
23 pragmatic and that is I have seen what this
24 bay did to these properties several years ago
25 and, in fact, the bulkheaders were there.
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dible) and owned
d
i
h
1 nau
o owne
(
Gentlemen w
2 bulkheading farms were there for two years
3 rebuilding these bulkheads after these storms
4 and houses that were lost during that time.
5 53 feet is very, very, very little when we
6 anticipate that type of storm. I am knocking
7 on wood. I'm not a superstitious person, but
8 I'll do it anyway. We have been long overdue
9 and I am not anticipating one. I hope, very
10 simply, we never has another one, but we --
11 the most recent application we had in this
12 immediate area was absolutely no relief for a
• 13 setback and that was the Diller application
14 down closer to Laurel Lane in Southold Town
15 maybe three -- two or three -- what was it?
16 It was maybe the second house in Southold Town
17 wasn't it? And we did hold fast to the 75
18 feet at that time, there was no house on that
19 property. It was a vacant lot 55 feet wide by
20 400 or 390 or something like that.
21 So I'm just -- we're just telling you,
22 and very rarely will you get an across the
23 board statement from everybody, but we're just
24 trying to give you some idea and some answer
25 to your specific question.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. The reason I
2 asked the question the way I did was trying to
3 think in terms of putting a structure, a new
4 structure, exactly where an existing structure
5 is and suggesting that that would not be any
6 worse for the environment than the conditions
7 that exist already.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: I think the logic is
9 we'd like to make it better for the
10 environment, not worse, not just maintain the
11 status quo.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: I --
. 13 MEMBER WEISMAN: When you have an
14 opportunity, through brand new construction,
15 to make different choices then the prevailing
16 current wisdom is that one would attempt to do
17 so. I think that's all that the Board is
18 really reacting to.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, but we're trying
20 to make it better at our individual expense,
21 one at a time, with people with littering and
22 so forth because I see people driving around
23 with bumper stickers that say "Save what's
24 left" and I have thought going to the Ink Spot
25 and printing up bumper stickers to give to
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f the "Save what's
t
t
l
t
h
1 o pu
on
op o
ose peop
e
t
2 left" that says, "I've got mine". It's just
3 the constant concept, you know, everybody is
4 looking at me like I'm nuts, but it's --
5 MEMBER OLIVA: But that's the whole
6 thing, Jim, we have to change our whole mental
7 attitude. You know, I know what you're
8 saying, "I've got mine, so tough luck on you."
9 MEMBER SIMON: It's hard to use that as
10 an argument for being more generous to the
11 next person who comes along just because some
12 people have, by luck and history, gotten what
13 we wouldn't allow today.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Jim, I don't -- I
15 understand and I'm sure others in the audience
16 and the property owners would nod in agreement
17 saying why me. Everybody else has gotten
18 theirs. The bottom line is that we are really
19 -- we're not saying to you that -- we are here
20 to grant relief, okay. We're not here to say
21 no, necessarily. Punitive would be, no,
22 conform to everything. Okay, conform to all
23 setbacks or you don't get to build it. We're
29 here to hear reasonable testimony as to what
25 we can reasonably respond to based on the law
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CJ
1 and there are five criteria we have to examine
2 how we can grant the least variance, the
3 minimum necessary in order for you to build a
4 house. Okay, that's what we're required to
5 do. Alright. That's what we're talking about
6 here.
7 It isn't meant to be punitive, it's meant
8 to be essentially an adjudication of how we
9 can allow the property owner to have a new
10 house on that property by complying with as
11 many of the Codes as we possibly can while
12 creating the least variance. Alright and you
13 know environmental impacts are one of the five
14 things we look at. Just one. You know what
15 they are.
16 So I think, you know, unless there's more
17 testimony from others, we are (inaudible)
18 time.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to do
20 that, but what we want you to do, what I'd
21 like you to do is to come back with an
22 alternate plan and we'll speak to your
23 architect right now, if he'd like to speak to
24
25
us.
State your name for the record, please.
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• 1 MATO
Ri
h
d M
t
ar
MR.
:
c
a
o.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
3 MR. MATO: Good.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would you like
5 to tell us?
6 MR. MATO: I'd like to tell -- well, if
7 you wanted to -- if we need to shrink the
8 house, then we can certainly accommodate that.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We are gifted with
10 having a professor of architecture and that's
11 Ms. Weisman down there and I have only set out
12 a couple of parameters in reference to side
. 13 yards. Mine are very pragmatic. I've been a
14 fireman for 40-1/2 years in Mattituck, okay,
15 and I've dragged hose all the way up and down
16 Laurel Lane. I've seen Peconic Bay Boulevard
17 and, hopefully, we don't drag too much more.
18 Okay, they're long lots. They're difficult to
19 get equipment into and that's just one aspect.
20 The Code is the Code and the ability to put
21 any type of scaffolding, any type of fence,
22 any type of ladders on the property to get to
23 the house are of prime importance to me rather
24 than having to get requests from next door
25 neighbors to do so. That's basically the
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i
i
S
th
t'
1 n
on.
s my op
o
a
issue.
2 Leslie, do you want to say anything about
3 that?
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I think I've talked
5 (inaudible).
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay and that's it.
7 We would like to know the distance between the
8 garage/cottage and the house, the proposed
9 house, bearing in mind that it could be pushed
10 back a little bit further and that's basically
11 where we are, but what we really need is 7-1/2
12 or 8 on the west side; I need 7-1/2 or 8 on
13 the west side and I need a clean 5-1/2 on the
19 east side.
15 MR. MATO: I think we can do that.
16 MRS. STORK: I have one question,
17 procedurally. Are you only asking for revised
18 site plan or are you also asking for rough
19 diagrams and elevations?
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think we have to
21 go with the footprint first. Then you can
22 play with the (inaudible) that's not a
23 sarcastic statement --
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: In order for them to do
25 that, Gerry, they're going to need to redo the
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• fl
l
1 oor p
an.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: So they might as well
4 get the whole thing back.
5 MRS. STORK: If you do less diagrams, is
6 that --
7 MR. MATOS: I can have the construction
8 runs done --
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much time do
10 you need?
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: They don't have to be
12 construction, they can be schematic.
. 13 MR. MATO: Okay.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How much time do
15 you need?
16 MR. MATO: You go by monthly?
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
18 MR. MATO: We can have it next month.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. We can have
20 it a week before, the meeting is the 25?
21 BOARD ASST.: We would need it in three
22 weeks.
23 MR. MATO: Three weeks.
24 BOARD ASST.: Yeah, August 14 --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no.
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L_J
•
1 BOARD ASST.: I mean September 14th,
2 sorry.
3 MR. MATO: On my end, that's fine. I
4 would have to check with the surveyor to make
5 sure he can, but there shouldn't be a problem.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: We're going to adjourn
7 to September 19.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not closing
9 this hearing, ladies and gentlemen. You'll
10 certainly have the right to speak. We're just
11 laying some ground rules down and asking --
12 BOARD ASST.: You'll have a deadline of
13 September (inaudible).
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just so that
15 we can make it a part of the resolution since
16 we're there right now, do you want to give me
17 a time, Linda, for September 25?
18 BOARD ASST.: I have 1:15 --
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 1:15 in the
20 afternoon.
21 BOARD ASST.: -- for September 25.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we ask anybody
23 that has an interest in this to either stop in
24 to the office before and review the plan
25 and/or we can recess for five minutes during
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1 the -- to show you the new plan.
2 Now we'll open the discussion up to
3 anyone who would like to speak either for or
4 against this application or just has a
5 concern.
6 Mr. Romanelli, how are you, sir?
7 MR. ROMANELLI: Good morning.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's an absolute
9 pleasure to see you.
10 MR. ROMANELLI: I just want to clarify
11 one thing. Pat Romanelli, you know, the
12 property to the west of this here. When we
. 13 built our home, and correct me if I'm wrong,
14 we had to be 100 feet back from the high water
15 mark.
16 MEMBER OLIVA: Did you have a bulkhead or
17 a retaining wall?
18 MR. ROMANELLI: We had a bulkhead at the
19 time, yes. We had to (inaudible). I just
20 want to know is that still in existence 100
21 feet from the high water mark?
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
23 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: That would have
24 been -- that would have been the Trustees who
25 used to have jurisdiction from the high water
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1 mark which has since been moved back depending
2 on whether it was beach or (inaudible).
3 MR. ROMANELLI: I just went to the
4 Building Department and got a permit.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but that was
6 because you were conforming.
7 MR. ROMANELLI: Yes.
8 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You were 100 feet
9 back.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Cause you were
11 conforming.
12 MR. ROMANELLI: I have no problem with
. 13 the application to be honest with you.
14 Anything is better than what's there now.
15 That's the only thing I want to bring forward
16 as far as the setback goes, that's all.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: May I comment?
19 The Trustees jurisdiction extends up to -
20 -
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Speak to us,
22 please. Yes, you have to speak to us. You
23 have to address the Board regarding that.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Tell Pat -- tell your
25 mother that any application, the Trustees
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• 1 jurisdiction extends 100 feet from the high
2 water mark.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Which does not mean that
5 you can't build within that area, it simply
6 means you need a Trustees' permit.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: Right, you're right, Jim.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: So that the conforming
9 building beyond 100 feet I would say is, and
10 I'm saying this because of your use of the
11 word conforming, because there's nothing to
12 conform to there as far as the Trustees are
• 13 concerned. It's simply a matter of staying
19 beyond their reach.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
16 MR. ROMANELLI: If the high water mark is
17 100 feet, we've lost over 25 feet of high
18 water.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: We know.
20 MR. ROMANELLI: So that's -- 25-30 feet
21 is gone.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's what we were
23 concerned about with the Diller application.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You know, which is
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f
?
10 h
12 h
bl
h
1 rom you
ouses,
ouses
proba
y w
at
2 Yeah, down closer to Laurel Lane.
3 Anybody else?
9 Okay, seeing no hands, we'll make a
5 motion adjourning this hearing until 1:15 p.m.
6 on September 25.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
8 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
10 HEARING #6188 - Richard Manfredi
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
12 "Request for a Variance under Section
• 13 280-122 and 280-124 (ZBA Interpretatin #5039),
14 based on the Building Inspector's June 10,
15 2008 amended Notice of Disapproval concerning
16 proposed additions and alterations to the
17 existing dwelling, which new construction will
18 constitute an increase in the degree of
19 nonconforming single side yard at less than 10
20 feet, less than 25 feet on total side yards,
21 at 240 Sunset Path and Hilltop Path (private
22 roads), Southold; CTM 54-1-19."
23 We will ask Mr. Notaro to present his
24 case. Good morning, sir, still. It is
25 morning, still.
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• G
d
i
i
1 MR. NOTARO:
oo
morn
ng, my name
s
2 Frank Notaro. I'm the architect representing
3 Mr. and Mrs. Manfredi.
4 If I may just give a little background on
5 how this whole project started. Mr. and Mrs.
6 Manfredi came to us requesting additional
7 space for their home. Two of their children
8 have come back to roost. Their grown and
9 Richard would like to keep a little separation
10 going here between them and himself. He owns
11 a house one home away from this home. When we
12 looked at the site we were aware of the
13 preexisting nonconforming status of the side
14 yards, with that in mind when we drew sketches
15 for him of the upstairs, we immediately
16 starting setting it in as much as we could
17 from a practical standpoint and also
18 aesthetically.
19 The upstairs side yard setback on a
20 bedroom that we're proposing is three feet
21 further in than the existing side yard walls,
22 which will remain. The only wall that
23 actually will be attacked greatly is the one
24 that's in the conformance, which is the rear
25 yard. When we designed the upstairs, Richard
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1 i
t
t
d i
h
i
d
k
Th
was
n
eres
e
n
av
ng a
ec
.
e reason
2 he was interested in having a deck is because
3 the gentleman next door to him on the
4 northwest built a wall of home there and that
5 completely blocked out his view of the water
6 and air circulation, which is a minor issue.
7 So he was requesting a deck. A deck is good
8 because it's not full structure, you can see
9 through a deck. The proposed second floor
10 front bedroom is about 7 feet further back
11 than the existing sunroom on the house.
12 We're sensitive also -- we tried to be
13 sensitive to the height. We didn't want to
14 come up like his neighbor did with a full
15 block of home and, where we could, we brought
16 in side skirts on the home as well as slop
17 pitched roofs front and back. The area that
18 has more of a -- the master bedroom actually
19 has clipped ceilings in it and that's not
20 necessarily easy to determine by the plans and
21 elevations but it's not full-height 8-foot
22 ceiling bedroom throughout. The room in the
23 back, which we're proposing cantilevering over
24 the existing deck that's in the back is more
25 of a full-height 8-foot ceiling in there.
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• 1
2
That, I don't believe, is a major issue
because we do have the rear yard setback
3 allowance there.
4 So that's just a brief description. If I
5 can answer any questions, please.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, you'll
7 start with this one.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: I want to look at my
9 notes.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. In
11 looking at the plan and we're looking at the
12 west elevation and we're looking at a
13 relatively high roofline. I'm referring to
14 this very nice plan you've worked out here.
15 Again, two gable ends on the right, well
16 there's three gable ends. There's one on the
17 front, there's one on the left and there's one
18 on the right, which would be north and south.
19 Is it going to give you that appearance of
20 having that height to that roof when you're
21 standing on the ground looking at it? Is it
22 absolutely necessary to have that roofline
23 that high, the ridgeline?
24 MR. NOTARO: Well, the further -- you
25 know, it is an optical illusion. When you're
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
1 standing at the lowest point on the property,
2 the roof that is inclined about 8 and 12
3 suddenly has a description of about maybe a 6
4 and 12, 5 and 12. So we tend to not
5 exaggerate the roof, but not make it too flat
6 because you end up with a roof that basically
7 that looks like the home next door, which from
8 the ground looking up at a two and a half
9 story or whatever, it looks like about a 3 and
10 12, 2 and 12 pitch on it now.
11 So I mean that roof is a comfortable snow
12 removal type roof where you don't anticipate
13 water problems with a roof like that. When
14 you start to go below say a 7 and 12, 5 and
15 12, you know, then you start to have issues
16 with snow buildup and potential water damage
17 on it. I mean that's what generated it. We
18 tended to take it from the front all the way
19 to the basic back of the home and that's
20 aesthetically what we felt was a comfortable
21 pitch.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
23 Ruth, do you have any questions?
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Not really. It's just, I
25 mean if you're having family come back you'd
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i
li
l
i
f
h
i
1 on
l
ke a
tt
e separat
rom t
em. Bas
cally
2 you're just adding another story onto the
3 house that's there.
4 MR. NOTARO: Correct. The existing house
5 is 595 square feet, plus the 95 square foot
6 sunroom and we're adding approximately 595
7 square feet upstairs. So you're talking about
8 roughly a 1300 square foot home, which is not
9 exactly a McMansion.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: You are maintaining the
11 existing side yard setbacks essentially, just
12 building on the second floor.
• 13 MR. NOTARO: Absolutely.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the way it has to
15 be drawn on the roof. Here. You know, the
16 way the drawing is on the west elevation
17 (inaudible). It's a skillful, you know, very
18 skillful modest addition that I think is very
19 much in scale with the existing house.
20 Unfortunately, what's happened next door has
21 created a situation with scaling no longer a
22 discussible -- you know, it's completely
23 overwhelming for that small compound, but the
29 proposal here I don't think is creating an
25 enormous wall of any kind.
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roval was
f Disa
N
ti
t i
it th
Wh
1 pp
o
ce o
e
a
s
2 amended because the lot size was originally
3 misquoted; is that correct?
4 MR. NOTARO: Yes, it's under the --
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, so now you need --
6 to be conforming you need a 10 and a 25 total
7 side yard.
8 MR. NOTARO: Right.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a smaller lot, but
10 you're not going to get that anyway. You're
11 at 3.8 and 10.9?
12 MR. NOTARO: Yeah, 7.8 and it's actually
13 a little under 9-foot is the worse case on the
19 other side.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: 3.8 exists and a total
16 of 10.9.
17 MR. NOTARO: Yeah, but if you set it in
18 on that one side 3 feet, we're actually in
19 conformance on that one side. We're over the
20 10 foot, not that that's a -- you know, we
21 tried to balance the house out on the center
22 line.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I mean this is a
24 very clear application. I just want to hear
25 what anybody else might have to say about it.
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hi
h -- did
i
d
l
l
tt
h
1 er, w
c
ve
a
ong
e
We
ave rece
2 you get a copy of it?
3 MR. NOTARO: Yes, we did.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
5 MR. NOTARO: Actually it shows a picture
6 of the home that is being finished next to Mr.
7 Manfredi right now.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's being finished
9 (inaudible) it looks like.
10 MR. NOTARO: If you can imagine, he's
11 further back (inaudible) that home than you
12 can see on the site plan. He's staring
• 13 directly at this home now.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Did you see the letter?
15 MEMBER SIMON: No.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Pardon?
17 MEMBER SIMON: No, the letter that was --
18 Mr. Hoby's letter.
19 BOARD ASST.: Oh, Mr. Hoby's letter.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, the letter from the
21 neighbor that we recently received.
22 Yeah, okay. I think the application is
23 very clear. I don't really see any -- any
24 proposed addition will be dwarfed by what has
25 somehow managed to be built on the other side.
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•
L_J
•
1 I don't have any questions really.
2 MEMBER SIMON: I have a comment and
3 question. Just to sort of set the context of
4 this, I agree with most of what Leslie has
5 said about the application. I was just there
6 yesterday, as a matter of fact, looked at it
7 and my first question is the neighbor to the
8 north, I guess Niese (sic) is the name. Now
9 that did not require a variance; am I correct?
10 In other words, the setbacks were sufficient,
11 were legally sufficient. If you don't know
12 the answer, it doesn't really matter. What's
13 at issue --
19 MR. NOTARO: I have a copy of the survey.
15 I'm extremely confused about the house, to be
16 honest with you.
17 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, well the reason --
18 here's -- this is only a secondary point.
19 MR. NOTARO: Yeah.
20 MEMBER SIMON: The reason, as Z
21 understand it, that this application is before
22 us really has nothing to do with the house on
23 the north, it has to do with the setback on
24 the south side.
25 MR. NOTARO: Oh, correct. Correct.
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h
i
i
f
1 e cont
nuat
on o
MEMBER SIMON: And t
2 the nonconformity which was addressed by the
3 Board six years ago or so under the Walz
4 decision. Okay, which say increase the degree
5 of nonconformity and I just reread that
6 opinion and as you know and those who follow
7 the Board pretty closely, most of the Notices
8 of Disapproval that are issued are over the
9 Walz question, turn out to be fairly technical
10 and the variance is usually granted. This by
11 itself doesn't speak against the wisdom of the
12 Walz decision, which concerns the kind of
• 13 problem which is at issue here, namely a
14 neighbor building a house which goes higher
15 and may tower over an existing house and what
16 Mr. Hoby's letter does raise -- the question
17 it does raise is that that is the kind of
18 issue which will need to be addressed on this
19 Board and technically it has nothing to do
20 with Niese's (sic) house because that's not
21 what's before us.
22 So the -- I think I myself, for example,
23 am going to go back and look at it again and
24 try to get some kind of sense of this to see
25 the extent to which Mr. Hoby's concerns really
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h
t'
i
b
1 a
s
nto account
ecause t
need to be taken
2 our job. It is to decide whether this is one
3 of those routine rubber stamp Walz decisions
4 or whether this is closer to the kind, which
5 caused the Walz decision to come up in the
6 first place, and so I'm just saying if that is
7 the issue and I think yes, everybody mentions
8 the house on the north. Nobody is very happy
9 about it. As far as we know, as far as what's
10 before us goes, nothing legally went wrong
11 with the house. If it did, we don't know
12 that. I'm not saying it didn't.
• 13 So we have this problem, obviously, the
14 neighbor cannot make his case based on what
15 went wrong on the other side, but it certainly
16 stirs the blood if there is a feeling that
17 some injustice has been done that affected
18 other people besides him and it motivates
19 this. So I'm just saying the facts of the
20 issue are (inaudible). Now, you may -- you
21 know, one view is worth 10,000 words. A
22 picture is worth 1000 words. So maybe we
23 should view it again. If you have more words
24 to answer my concerns or our concerns, I'd be
25 happy to receive them.
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if I
dd
1 one
MR. NOTARO: Just,
may a
2 thing, if you take a dimension at the meeting
3 point of the highest ridge to the lowest, in
4 other words the longest sloping roof --
5 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
6 MR. NOTARO: -- we're at about 25 feet to
7 the lowest part of the property.
8 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
9 MR. NOTARO: So we're 10 feet below where
10 Mr. and Mrs. Manfredi could have taken the
11 house and we didn't think that was apropos.
12 MEMBER SIMON: Okay --
13 MR. NOTARO: Not on a home that thin, on
14 the site, nonconforming site.
15 MEMBER SIMON: These are important --
16 MR. NOTARO: Maybe we should also address
17 in the future the 95-degree rule that they use
18 in Southampton as kind of a basis. I mean I'm
19 not trying to -- I don't want to add things,
20 believe me, but we try to when we can adhere
21 to that ruling just for aesthetic value and,
22 you know, it seems to work and also adds, I
23 think, more interest to the home. Instead of
24 a straight up two-story house with a shallow
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• It
decks on it
h
f
ith t
i
h
1 .
wo
umongous
w
tc
roo
p
2 doesn't -- that's not our style.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Do you have a copy of that
4 45-rule?
5 MR. NOTARO: Sure.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's based on the
7 lot lines.
8 MR. NOTARO: They like you to stay within
9 the envelope of a 45-degree. So now you have
10 a nonconforming -- here I go now. I'm going
11 to get a letter from the other architects out
12 here. It really -- it makes sense to start --
13 in order words, it came about because of all
14 these flat roofed humongous mass okie homes
15 that people build in the Hamptons.
16 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
17 MR. NOTARO: So they said, hey, you have
18 to start putting these homes on diets a little
19 bit and it really has helped a lot down there.
20 There are, of course, sites where you can't
21 really do that. We attempted to do it a
22 little bit with the skirts on the side of the
23 house, but I mean it's something to think
24 about.
25 MEMBER OLIVA: Thanks.
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1 k
NOTARO
Th
MR
you.
:
an
.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anyone
3 else that would like to be heard regarding
4 this application? Sir, would you state your
5 name for the record?
6 MR. HOBY: I'm Pat Hoby, neighbors. I'm
7 glad you got the letter. All I was going to
8 do is read an edited and perhaps more
9 temperate version of it. So I don't have a
10 lot to add to what is in that verbose note.
11 I understand the Niese (sic) house is
12 perhaps not the issue, but for future
• 13 information the way this was accomplished of
19 course was to clear the house and all the
15 trees off that lot, build the house with the
16 same footprint, but the footprint was moved
17 closer to the road. So we're too compliant
18 and too unknowledgeable to know that something
19 should have been said back then before this
20 thing sprung up. So that's how that happened.
21 So anyway our -- I've stated, perhaps
22 ineloquently, our issues. All I was going to
23 do is read a substantially edited version of
24 that. I don't think two wrongs make a right
25 here. There's plenty of other spaces. Mr.
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1 Manfredi said to me a week and a half ago he
2 wants two new bedrooms, two bedrooms. Now I
3 understand the plans the way I read them only
4 show one. There are two bedrooms would overdo
5 the septic system, for example.
6 Now, if the same builder is involved that
7 built that blight I think compared to what he
8 has accomplished there, then putting in an
9 extra -- sneaking in an extra wall upstairs --
10 I'm not accusing anyone of it -- but it's
11 quite possible. It's been less than straight-
12 forward. our experience with what that
13 gentleman has done, the builder. So that's a
14 possibility. I don't wish to read this edited
15 version.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: May I ask you a
17 question?
18 MR. HOBY: Yes.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: The plans that we have
20 before us show two bedrooms.
21 MR. HOBY: Oh, they do.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, they do. One is
23 on the small side, but they show two bedrooms
24 up there and one bathroom.
25 MR. HOBY: Okay, then perhaps --
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r-~
U
1 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's 780 square feet in
2 the second story that they're proposing.
3 MR. HOBY: How about the issue of just
4 compulsive building? Does that -- does one
5 have any say in that?
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, we don't.
7 MR. HOBY: Well, then I guess I have no
8 say.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Sometimes I wish we
10 could, all we can do is respond when the
11 Building Inspector provides a Notice of
12 Disapproval for somebody applying for a
13 building permit to do something and it doesn't
14 conform to the Code, then it comes before us.
15 Otherwise, we have no opportunity to be
16 proactive as you might -- you know, as you
17 were suggesting. All we can do is examine
18 application by application based on the five
19 legal criteria or reasons that we are obliged
20 to examine when determining whether or not
21 this variance is a reasonable thing to do or
22 we should grant alternative relief rather than
23 what's applied for. So while I, personally --
24 you know, I live in the same neighborhood by
25 the way, I live on Soundview. So I know the
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• 1 tl
ll
I
t
h
d -- I k
now exac
y
area very we
.
wa
c
e
2 what's happening in our neighborhood and I
3 have to say sometimes you scratch your head
4 and I sit here as a public official, I'm
5 wondering how did that happen and it does
6 happen. But in this particular case, while I
7 really can sympathize with living next door to
8 a construction site that's been the source of
9 noise and endless interruptions and
10 inconvenience, the law allows the property
11 owner to do this and our task is to determine
12 whether the proposed variance, which is to
13 maintain the side yards that are there, which
14 are nonconforming and put 780 square feet on
15 top, is a reasonable thing for the applicant
16 to be able to do.
17 We don't control views. Many people say,
18 but this house is really screwing up my view,
19 we can't see what we saw before.
20 Unfortunately, view sheds other than scenic
21 corridors are not the purview of this Board.
22 We can't protect somebody's view when a
23 property owner is building within conformity
24 of the law and this height is, as proposed, is
25 less than what the Code would have allowed.
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wh
t it's
lt t
i
i
diffi
i
b
1 mag
ne
a
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o
t may
e
So
2 going to look like from plans, it often is for
3 most people. Have you had a chance to see
9 them fully?
5 MR. HOBY: Yes.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. But I, from my
7 experience as a person who has taught
8 architecture for four years, this is not out
9 of scale with the existing house. It's
10 relatively small and modest and it's not going
11 to be overbearing. The whole area in there
12 has changed so dramatically over the last 15
13 years. I mean, I don't know how long you've
'
19 m in my house since
owned your property, but I
15 '85 and just watching what's going on all over
16 the place. People are building larger
17 everywhere, often on subprime property.
18 That's, I'm sorry for being so long
19 winded, but that's because I feel that it's a
20 part of our task to try to let the public
21 understand what we are constrained by and what
22 we're legally allowed to do.
23 MR. HOBY: Thank you for giving us the
29 opportunity to explain what we're enduring as
25 well.
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN
Y
:
es.
2 MRS. HOBY: My name is (inaudible) Hoby.
3 I want to know -- there's 97 inches between
4 their property and ours. How would he put a
5 ladder up to build this house without coming
6 on our property? And do we have a right to
7 say we don't want the builder on our property?
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, you do.
9 MRS. HOBY: Well, we don't want it.
10 Okay? That's what I -- I want that part
11 really clear.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Notaro? Oh,
• 13 I'm sorry.
14 MR. (Inaudible): My name is (Inaudible)
15 I own the property to the east of this
16 property. My only complaint or objection is
17 about the height that is within the setback
18 area, the side setback areas. I understand
19 the height is fine within the area of the
20 normal building envelope, but we have a
21 setback on one side of 7 feet and on one side
22 4 feet. We have a total of 11 feet of setback
23 on this property and the elevation of 30 feet
24 on the average is very high within those two
25 setback areas. How these are 4 feet from this
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•
1 house, if you turned around and looked at that
2 envision it going up 30 feet, alright, that's
3 fairly significant and if the roofline, as
4 someone suggested before, I think, could be
5 adjusted so that it was reduced in the areas
6 of noncompliance, I would have very good
7 support of this. I think it's an attractive
8 plan. I think it's well done. I'm just
9 concerned about the elevation within the
10 setback restrictions, which I believe are 10
11 feet and 15 feet normally and where the
12 original variance took place.
13 So if there's some way to accommodate
14 that -- we just did a house adjacent to this
15 also that was affecting the view of a house in
16 back of it and put a 10-foot flat roof. It's
17 a pitch roof like this, but the top 10 feet
18 are flat, alright, and it preserved the view
19 and didn't overpower the neighborhood. So I
20 think there are alternatives on what could be
21 done on that roofline that would make it not
22 seem so very steep when you come up and
23 approach it.
24 Two rights don't make a wrong, we were
25 talking about this before about setbacks on
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1 the bay where viewpoint was well we already
2 have one big ugly house next to us so what the
3 heck is this going to do. Well, I think it's
4 the same concept that you're addressing about
5 setbacks. At some point, you have to draw the
6 line. Two rights don't make a wrong. I think
7 that was the discussion also about putting
8 litter on the highways, right? So just
9 because there's a monstrosity next to us
10 doesn't mean well what the heck anything goes
11 here. So I would like your consideration in
12 looking at that roofline and seeing if there
13 isn't some way it can be adjusted in the
14 nonconforming areas. Okay, that would be my
15 request.
16 I think there could be a safety issue
17 here as well with those two side yards, one
18 being 4 feet and one being 7 feet. The one
19 with the 7 feet has a very large generator in
20 it, alright. Access to the back yard is not
21 there. You'd have to drag fire hoses up this
22 hill to get here. Our house is directly in
23 back of it, the direction the wind blows. So
24 I have some safety concern about this as well.
25 Those are my two concerns and I would
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1 nk said about the
t Fr
h
h
t lik
t
o ec
o w
a
a
jus
e
2 45-degree rule. If that existed here neither
3 of these situations would have taken place.
4 We've lived in several communities where the
5 45-degree rule is in effect and it has an
6 astounding degree on bringing things into
7 attractiveness, if you will, within the
8 neighborhoods. I think it's something that
9 really should be considered here. Thank you
10 for your time.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
12 MR. HOBY: If I may, just two things. If
13 I may approach the Board?
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Surely.
15 MR. NOTARO: These are site surveys,
16 approved Health Department site surveys for
17 the next door neighbor. That's not what it
18 looks like right now. That's number one.
19 Okay, I mean I don't want to stir up --
20 MEMBER SIMON: Which neighbor?
21 MR. NOTARO: The new house. Also, if you
22 look at the existing footprint there is no way
23 that house presently built in any way conforms
24 to the way that house had been (inaudible)
25 it's been shifted over. This section has been
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• 1 Ok
I f
l th
t th
40-
d
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ee
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ay,
2 setback where they proposed it is no longer a
3 40-yard setback.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 40 foot.
5 MR. NOTARO: Right, 90 foot. This thing
6 comes out about another 6 feet. Just for the
7 record, it is not the same footprint.
8 The other thing is Mr. Manfredi and I
9 were discussing the item of doing the
10 gingerbread-type house with the 45-degree on
11 the upper in approximately 3 feet and we come
12 up (inaudible).
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That would be nice.
14 MR. NOTARO: When you look at it you
15 won't even notice this because everything is
16 going up on a pitch.
17 MEMBER OLIVA: Right, that's right.
18 MR. NOTARO: We can take that down a foot
19 and go in and it doesn't affect anything
20 accept the degree of nonconformance of the
21 roof now. So we're to do that also.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Frank, can you submit an
23 amended elevation?
29 MR. NOTARO: I can submit that.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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• 1 ik
sir
th
Y
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.
ave
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2 MR. (INAUDIBLE): (Inaudible) what he
3 just said regarding the roofline. Now, why
4 don't you --
5 MR. NOTARO: We would create what I call
6 a gingerbread house where you (inaudible) on
7 the sides. So you see roof coming down so
8 that would not come up to points like that and
9 then (inaudible) roof.
10 MR. (INAUDIBLE): We will discuss that,
11 but that's the area of my major concern.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just for the point
13 of view, Mr. Notaro, not to have you get up
14 again. This house will not have vinyl siding
15 on it or will it have vinyl siding, will it
16 have those shingles on it that are vinyl?
17 MR. NOTARO: We really haven't gone that
18 far.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I mean some of the
20 interesting points that were brought up today
21 were points that reflect, and we don't get
22 involved in aesthetics, okay, but just for the
23 point of view of the 3.8 on the one side or
24 the 4 feet on the one side, any type of more
25 architecturally wooded type of aspect from a
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•
1 view point of view, would be greatly
2 appreciated in this situation so you're not
3 looking at this flat yellow wall that's there
4 and there's nothing wrong with that color, to
5 be honest with you, but something that would
6 be a little more conducive to a wooded
7 atmosphere.
8 MR. NOTARO: Well we'll take that under
9 advisement. We haven't really developed it to
10 that stage. Having done (inaudible) cedar
11 impressions --
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They're fine. I'm
13 saying that's what I'm looking at on this
14 house and that's what I suspect that you were
15 proposing.
16 MR. NOTARO: Cedar shake would break up
17
the vastness.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, it would.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, thank you.
21 Alright, hearing no further comment I
22 make a motion closing the hearing.
23 MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Subject to the receipt
25 of the amended roofline.
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•
1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes. Subject to
2 the receipt of an amended roofline.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
4 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
6 HEARING #6196 - Richard and
7 Patricia Mellas
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
9 ~~Request for a Variance under Sections
10 280-122A and 280-124, based on the Building
11 Inspector's July 7, 2008 amended Notice of
12 Disapproval concerning a proposed addition on
13 an existing deck, which new construction
14 creates a new non-conformance or increases the
15 degree of non-conformance with regard to the
16 rear yard setback at less than the code-
17 required 35 feet, at 340 Colonial Road,
18 Southold; CTM 79-6-29."
19 Would you nice people tell us your names?
20 MRS. MECCAS: My name is Patty Mellas,
21 this is my husband, Richard.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
23 MR. MECCAS: Good. How are you?
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright. Probably
25 without your even knowing it, I was over to
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. 1 our house but -- and ver
nice
Would
ou
y
.
y
y
2 like to tell us what you're going to do?
3 MRS. MECCAS: Yeah, basically what we
4 want to do is with the existing deck we'd like
5 to make that into an enclosed porch, but in
6 order to make sure that it's done correctly
7 with building and Codes, we'd like to take
8 down the existing deck, put extra footings in
9 there to accommodate the standup structure of
10 the enclosed porch. In putting forth this
11 idea to the Building Department initially, we
12 found out that because it's 15,000 square foot
. 13 lot and it's under 20,000 feet, currently even
14 with the CO that it has and the setback right
15 now is 24.9, 25 feet and this structure
16 obviously, even though it's not really adding
17 too much to it, I think it right now is 192
18 square feet, it would go up to 196.8 square
19 feet with the enclosed porch and the extra
20 footings and whatnot.
21 So it needs to be 35 feet as you just
22 stated from the rear of the deck to the
23 property line.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What would be in
25 the structure itself? Would there be heat in
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• 1 the structure?
2 MRS. MECCAS: No, there'd be no heat or
3 anything in the structure. We're just looking
4 at screened in enclosed porch and the only
5 thing that we might actually put in would be
6 plexi-glass windows so that in the winter time
7 we wouldn't have to worry about everything
8 going in there and, you know, storms and
9 whatnot.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very nice. I have
11 absolutely no objection.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: I have no objection.
. 13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie?
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Nope. It's not going to
15 be viewable from the road. You're in a very
16 flat area on your very sloping property, so it
17 doesn't have any environmental impact. It
18 just gives you a chance to get away from the
19 mosquitoes, basically.
20 The one thing that you will have to do
21 though, of course, is to provide gutters and
22 leaders for the roof run-off because there
23 will be some roof run-off since it will be
29 enclosed. It's not noted on your survey
25 particularly, but that would be something that
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• 1 n in
ur findin
s and that
ld
diti
g
we wou
con
o
o
2 you would have to comply with the Code anyway.
3 So it's actually the same size as the deck,
4 right?
5 MRS. MECCAS: Yes. I think he put some
6 of that in there in the actual plans that John
7 (inaudible) came up with. He has the storm
8 water management details equip with a drywell
9 and whatnot.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm looking for that.
11 MRS. MECCAS: Yeah, it's towards the
12 back. It's the second to last, third to last
• 13 page from the back of the actual plans.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, it's here. Yeah, I
15 got it. Just so that when we write it up we
16 can refer to the plan --
17 MRS. MECCAS: Yeah, he even talked about
18 a gutter and what has to put within there.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not -- are you
20 talking about --
21 MRS. MECCAS: Third to last page from the
22 back, it says, storm water management details.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, yeah. I have it
24 right here. Okay. It's already spelled out
25 then. No further questions.
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1 MEMBER SIMON: I don't have a problem
2 with this. Just informational, when was the
3 house built?
9 MR. MECCAS: 1983.
5 MEMBER SIMON: And when was the -- was
6 the deck put on at that time?
7 MR. MECCAS: Yes.
8 MRS. MECCAS: Yeah. Yes. The deck
9 actually has a CO and everything, but I guess
10 --
11 MEMBER SIMON: Did you need a variance
12 for that rear setback?
• 13 MR. MECCAS: We bought the house after
14 that.
15 MRS. MECCAS: Yeah, be bought the house
16 in '96 and when it was given the CO the deck
17 was existing at that time and, in fact, in
18 order to get, you could probably tell, in
19 order to get out the backdoor because it's on
20 a sloping piece, you need something that's
21 high up and elevated.
22 MEMBER SIMON: So it's not your
23 responsibility as such, but the neighbor --
24 how they got the C of 0 for a deck, presumably
25 they applied for a variance and got the
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1 variance and that's how they got the C of 0.
2 So this would be relevant, I mean, they were
3 able to sell it to you because they had a C of
4 O for it.
5 MRS. MECCAS: Right, we had no problems
6 with it.
7 BOARD ASST.: If there were a variance it
8 would be in the packet.
9 MEMBER SIMON: It would?
10 BOARD ASST.: No, I didn't say there was
11 a variance, I said if there were --
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael I'm going
13 to make a statement. Those were different
14 times.
15 MEMBER SIMON: Right, that's right.
16 You mean the Building Department might
17 have not required a variance.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Those were
19 different times. That's all we're going to
20 say.
21 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, thank you. That
22 clears up my confusion.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody in
29 the audience who would like to speak for or
25 against this application?
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ll
didn't
ive
d
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t
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1 y
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an
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ng no
2 them a chance to raise any.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
4 MEMBER OLIVA: Seconded.
5 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
7 HEARING #6191 - Thomas Zoitas
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
9 "Request for a Variance under Section
10 280-15, based on the Building Inspector's June
11 12, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
12 proposed swimming pool, in a yard other than
• 13 the code-required rear yard or front yard, at
14 6255 Route 98 (property adjacent to Long
15 Island Sound), Greenport; CTM 40-1-7."
16 Mrs. Moore, would you like to speak?
17 MRS. MOORE: Yes, thank you. We started
18 with this project, a vacant piece of property,
19 and we actually tried to comply with
20 absolutely all setbacks. The 100-foot
21 setbacks and the rest, and we went over it
22 with the Building Department and some how or
23 another nobody realized that when we were
24 drawing the lines of the structures we were
25 following the line of the North Road. As you
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1 di
ti
d
th
N
th R
d
goes one
rec
on an
e
or
oa
can see
2 the rear yard (inaudible) line goes in an
3 opposite direction. So it was only after the
4 application for the pool came in that we
5 realized that because the lines are in two
6 different directions that a small portion of
7 the pool ended up in what is technically a
8 side yard, but from all observation it was put
9 in the backyard or on the waterfront side of
10 the house.
11 So again it's a technical variance
12 because we gave you a survey that was done by
• 13 Angel Chornos (sic) dated May 30, 2008, that
14 shows the area that is the nonconforming area
15 of the side yard and it is a 13-foot portion
16 of the rear setback between the 100 feet and
17 the 113 feet where the house is. So otherwise
18 all other setbacks are conforming and you
19 learn something new everyday even when you
20 don't expect it.
21 So I'd be happy to answer any questions
22 you have. We actually had the Trustees
23 hearing last night. You guys coordinate with
24 Trustees one night and Zoning Board the next.
25 MEMBER OLIVA: We like to see you work,
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1 P
t
a
.
2 MRS. MOORS: Pardon me?
3 MEMBER OLIVA: We like to see you work.
4 MRS. MOORS: I really do work, yes.
5 Everything was approved last night with the
6 Trustees with respect to the pool and patio.
7 So we're ready to move ahead with this Board's
8 permission.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: So the pool is 100 foot
10 back?
11 MRS. MOORS: The pool is 100 feet back,
12 yes.
. 13 MEMBER OLIVA: And you're going to have
19 the 30-foot of non-vegetated buffer, yeah,
15 disturbance?
16 MRS. MOORS: Yes. Yes.
17 MEMBER OLIVA: And this is a side yard --
18 MRS. MOORS: It's a small portion. As I
19 said 13 feet of it is considered side yard.
20 MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah, not a big deal, I
21 don't think.
22 MRS. MOORS: Again, I didn't realize that
23 they measured from an angle from the back
24 rather than the road frontage. You know, you
25 think you're following the line of the house
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J
•
1 to be the rear yard. So --
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Question, that
3 little circle where it says 30 in the corner
4 is that the pump out?
5 MRS. MOORE: I believe that's -- yes,
6 that's a (inaudible) drywell.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Drywell. Yeah,
8 okay. And we already have the environmental
9 area staked and the rear of the house toward
10 the bluff shown on the survey. So that's
11 something that's not of concern.
12 I will go on to Leslie.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I have no
14 questions. I have no problems with this.
15 MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody like
17 to speak in behalf or against this application
18 or just make statements?
19 I need you to state your name for the
20 record.
21 MS. YOUNG: My name is Dorothy Young. I
22 live to the east of this property. I have
23 sent a letter in to the Trustees about water
24 damage. I have had water damage since they
25 cleared all the trees and now the ground level
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•
n
1 is higher. The pool goes along the side of my
2 property and I'm worried -- one thing I'm
3 worried about is the decking around.
4 Everywhere you say use pervious so that you
5 don't get run-off and I don't know what the
6 decking is going to be around. Is it going to
7 be loose decking, but have areas -- I'm very
8 concerned about run-off and also I'd like to
9 know how many of the existing trees and
10 shrubbery -- the least amount, everything else
11 is being removed, but towards the Sound how
12 much more is going to be chopped down and also
13 what replanting. You know, you need -- I have
14 my home really planted out as much as I can.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Are you the daffodil lady?
16 MS. YOUNG: Pardon me? Yes, that's
17 right.
18 MEMBER OLIVA: We did a studio above your
19 garage?
20 MS. YOUNG: Pardon?
21 MEMBER OLIVA: We did a studio above your
22 garage?
23 MS. YOUNG: No, there is no living space
29 above my --
25 MEMBER OLIVA: Not living space, a
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LJ
1 studio.
2 MS. YOUNG: It's a office cum storage.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Right. Okay.
4 MS. YOUNG: Above the garage yes. What
5 did you say the daffodils? Yes, the daffodils
6 on the bank in the front of North Road, yes.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: All over.
8 MS. YOUNG: But also the number of the
9 property just to (inaudible) is incorrect.
10 There are no 4-numbered homes on that Route
11 48. Mine is 62615. Mr. Surprenant's number
12 is 62945. They have to be five-numbered. I
13 pointed this out before.
19 MEMBER SIMON: You're right, thank you.
15 MS. YOUNG: Just a small thing, but this
16 is incorrect it has to be five numbers.
17 I wondered whether we could --
18 MRS. MOORS: Is that the Building
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Department's number?
MEMBER SIMON: It's on the Notice of
Disapproval.
BOARD ASST.: It's on the application,
it's on the Notice of Disapproval. It's on
all the paperwork.
MS. YOUNG: I've contacted the Town
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l
i
d
h
'
l
i
h
1 severa
t
mes an
t
ey
ve a
ways sa
ere
d t
2 (inaudible).
3 MRS. MOORE: We'll make sure that we look
4 at it. We'll be getting a number from the
5 Town.
6 MS. YOUNG: 15 years ago we used to have
7 just three numbers. I used to be just 350,
8 suddenly 15 years ago they wrote and said your
9 house number is now 62615. So that's -- but I
10 wondered whether we could get some idea of
11 what the surface all around this pool is going
12 to be. I'm very fearful. As I say, I have
13 had so thick mud coming into my garage. I've
19 also had my (inaudible) shed under (inaudible)
15 mud and the basement of my -- the basement in
16 my home has come through with run-off since
17 they cleared the property next door. SO I'd
18 like to know, hopefully they can do lots and
19 lots of planting down by my fence, which is
20 adjacent. It's actually 8 inches inside my
21 line and the (inaudible) have actually put a
22 wire-mesh fence exactly on my property line.
23 I had -- I was under -- I hadn't build -- I
24 was thinking about British Code that you
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r ~
~J
1 always build it in 6 to 8 inches your fences
2 on your own property.
3 Yes, planting is very important, is it
9 going to be a pervious surface and landscaping
5 is very important being it's on the Sound and
6 we get a huge amount of run-off are we gong to
7 have a lot of -- because the whole house is
8 now brick, I mean completely, not in keeping
9 with, I'm sorry to say this, but not in
10 keeping with a Sound-front property. It looks
11 more like a large townhouse all brick and it's
12 just very sad that it's (inaudible) neighbors.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What can you give
14 us for that?
15 MRS. MOORE: I can be happy to -- okay,
16 well what we actually talked about with the
17 Trustees with respect to drainage the Code
18 requires us to have full drainage so there is
19 no run-off on the property. We are at -- we
20 have pavers. The patio area is pavers. I
21 don't know that anybody has made a decision
22 whether the pavers are going to be on sand or
23 on -- is pervious or impervious yet. We
24 agreed with the Trustees that if it's
25 pervious, drainage is less of an issue. If
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•
1 it's impervious then we have to provide for
2 drainage. So regardless of -- I guess
3 ultimately when they decide what the final
4 material use is going to be they know it's a
5 patio, but we don't know that -- we haven't
6 speed out the materials. At that time, if
7 it's impervious we have to provide drainage.
8 So I think she can be assured that the
9 Building Department requires engineered
10 drywells throughout the whole house and any
11 impervious surfaces.
12 With respect to landscaping, we have --
13 we are going to provide a vegetative buffer at
14 the top of the bluff. I don't want to call it
15 non-disturbance because we're still discussing
16 it with the Trustees. We submitted two very
17 elaborate landscape plans with 50-feet of Rosa
18 Rigosa, but the property is still in such a
19 condition that the Trustees asked us to do it
20 in two stages. The first stage being that we
21 were going to clean all the vines and invasive
22 species that are kind of taking over all the
23 trees and, once the vines are taken down, then
24 we're going to take a look at it and see
25 what's there because right now we really can't
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1 see healthy versus unhealthy growth. So we
2 agreed to do that and we are actually going to
3 submit a full landscape plan.
9 My client has speed out two significant
5 landscape plans, they're gorgeous $100,000.00
6 landscape plans, but the Trustees right now
7 would rather us take things step-by-step. So
8 I know he really does plan to vegetate and as
9 you can tell from the front yard there are
10 significant trees that were taken down. The
11 area that is around the house had to be
12 cleared for the sanitary system, for the house
• 13 construction, and ultimately for all the
19 drywells, you can't -- you have to disturb an
15 area. So that's the area that is been
16 disturbed.
17 Otherwise the hay bale line is really the
18 -- it's landward of 100 feet. So we've
19 actually not cleared as much as we could have
20 to the 100 feet. We've kept everything
21 closer. I know that she has made complaints
22 to the owner about the run-off and as soon as
23 we heard that, we actually added more hay
24 bales and some fence along the side of the
25 side of the property so as to try to mitigate
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I thi
d
bl
k
'
1 n
we
ve
an
not cause any pro
ems.
2 just had a very rainy season and between the
3 rain and certainly the brickwork requires some
4 water usage. So I can appreciate and we've
5 been trying to address that. We did right
6 away as soon as we had the complaint.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there any plan
8 that you can give us that we can make this
9 subject to?
10 MRS. MOORE: A landscape plan?
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah.
12 MRS. MOORE: I would love to, but the
13 Trustees can't -- haven't come to an agreement
14 on it. I can give you the plans I've given
15 you, but the Trustees didn't really want to
16 commit to it. I showed you two different
17 plans and I would hesitate -- it's not within
18 your jurisdictional area because -- but I can
19 certainly show you what we're willing to do
20 and they're significant.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: They're really -- the
22 bluff is the Trustees' area, but I'm concerned
23 about your neighbor here that needs some firm
24 (inaudible) that's going to absorb all the
25 run-off.
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1 INAUDIBLE
th
MRS
MOORE
b
'
)
ecause
re
.
: (
ey
2 dealing with bluff --
3 MEMBER OLIVA: No, that is up to them.
4 MRS. MOORE: Oh, alright. I'm sorry.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Perhaps I can expedite
6 this and (inaudible) two things. With regard
7 to what the patio is going to be made out of,
8 the plan that we have before us, the site
9 plan, calls out deck.
10 MRS. MOORE: That's the -- it's a deck
11 and patio.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
• 13 MRS. MOORE: The patio area is around the
19 pool, the deck is elevated to get out of the
15 house.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, so that deck is an
17 attached --
18 MRS. MOORE: Correct.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- it's attached to the
20 house.
21 MRS. MOORE: Right.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- so the patio does not
23 describe any kind of surface at all.
24 MRS. MOORE: Right, that's what I didn't
25 know.
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C J
1 MEMBER WEISMAN: We can -- it's not
2 really before us, so we can't really
3 condition, you know, as long as you're to
4 Code, we can't really say that it needs to be
5 pervious or not.
6 MRS. MOORE: You could certainly make a
7 condition that if it is impervious we will
8 provide drainage. I think that's --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that we can do
10 and the other thing that we can do is specify
11 that specific landscape per se, condition the
12 fact that along the mutual property line
13 substantial evergreen screening must be
14 provided for privacy and also to retain soil.
15 MS. YOUNG: That would be wonderful
16 because this house, Dorothy Young again, this
17 would be wonderful because the particular
18 house is a very high, very large, very high
19 and whereas I had my (inaudible) while having
20 my afternoon tea it's now from the upstairs
21 where they have balconies and such it's going
22 to be, you know, of course things change and
23 you don't always have your little quiet, but
29 it would be wonderful if trees and scrubs
25 would be -- plus it would help with taking the
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• h
f
iti
1 run-off. I mean
uge amounts o
pos
ve
2 roots would take in that.
3 The only other thing is last time we came
9 for a Trustee meeting, our neighbor Mr.
5 Surprenant and myself, there was a big problem
6 in the front with the septic system maybe that
7 you don't see it's completely disappeared and
8 the hole all caved in and we were concerned
9 that when they start digging the pool the
10 other side close to us, what's going to happen
11 then because the substance of the -- the whole
12 thing caved in, they'd lost the septic system.
• 13 MRS. MOORE: I can clarify that.
14 MS. YOUNG: Can you?
15 MRS. MOORE: The sanitary systems were
16 being dug very deep and it was getting -- the
17 obligation by the Health Department is you
18 have to open up a hole to make sure that the
19 material quality is good and so on. They have
20 to take out clay and put in sand. So I
21 believe that during that during the
22 construction that it was just so wet that it
23 just didn't hold up. I know that the system
24 is in now and that they didn't have any
25 problem the second time around. It just
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1 happened that the first time around they had
2 technical difficulty with the sanitary, not
3 unheard of along the North Shore here because
4 of clay material that's mixed in with sand.
5 So and that is specifically why the Health
6 Department, generally, wants you to excavate
7 for an inspection and part of that process
8 just keeps the hole open much longer and for
9 inspections and that, so --
10 MEMBER OLIVA: The test hole was done
11 back in 2003 according to the survey.
12 MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
13 MEMBER OLIVA: And I don't know who did
19 it.
15 MRS. MOORE: I don't know either. The
16 prior owner did it, I believe, but the test
17 hole (inaudible) --
18 MEMBER OLIVA: It usually says
19 (inaudible).
20 MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I don't know why and
21 it would have been in the front yard, but I
22 don't know ultimately. Ours was for sanitary
23 for construction.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: No that was done in 2003,
25 five years ago.
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t t
ll
t
l
I
'
1 evan
o
s rea
y no
re
MRS. MOORE:
t
2 this, but we can certainly talk about it.
3 MR. SURPRENANT: I'm Ronald Suprenant,
4 the neighbor to the west.
5 BOARD ASST.: How do you spell your last
6 name, sir.
7 MR. SUPRENANT: The discussion about the
8 septic system, I spoke with --
9 BOARD ASST.: S-U-R-P-R --
10 MR. SURPRENANT: S-U-R-P-R-E-N-A-N-T.
11 BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
12 MR. SURPRENANT: I spoke with one of the
13 excavator people. Man from ARTCO (sic) he
14 claimed that he or his company did the test
15 hole when Case (sic) owned the property. He
16 claimed he also did the 17-acre test holes
17 across the street. So that's the claim from
18 who did the test hole.
19 MRS. MOORE: Okay.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Is that
21 anything else you'd like to say?
22 MR. SURPRENANT: No.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No? Thank you.
24 MRS. MOORE: I don't have any -- I don't
25 think the owner would have any issues with
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• i
l
h
id
h
h
l
1 screen
ng a
ong t
e east s
e w
ere t
e poo
2 is. That's not a problem. I don't think
3 generally people want to put trees along the
4 property line. You're going to end up with
5 (inaudible) on both sides. I think an
6 evergreen screening is probably more suitable.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going to do
8 that or are we going to do that?
9 MRS. MOORE: You can place it as a
10 condition because it'll -- that's -- I don't
11 see any problem.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
. 13 MRS. MOORE: Any other questions?
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
15 Anybody else? No?
16 Okay, I'll make a motion closing the
17 hearing, reserving decision to later.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
19 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
21 HEARING #6193 - Joann Walker
22 MEMBER SIMON:
23 "Request for a Variance under Section
24 280-15 based on the Building Inspector's June
25 13, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
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• i
i
l
i
1 proposed accessory sw
mm
ng poo
structure
n
2 a year other than the code-required rear yard
3 (or front yard) at 290 Town Harbor Terrace,
9 Southold; CTM 66-1-33 (adjacent to the Little
5 Peconic Bay)."
6 Mrs. Moore, I would be --
7 MRS. MOORS: I'm sorry, I'm right here.
8 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
9 MRS. MOORS: Again, this is clean-up
10 variances. They had, my understanding is that
11 there were variances issued for setbacks from
12 the bulkhead. The pool was shown, but at the
13 time the pool was going to be attached to the
14 addition and -- to the existing house and
15 addition. Now, the pool is actually going to
16 be an accessory structure that has grass
17 around it. So it needed to get a variance for
18 a pool in a side yard. So the overall plan
19 that you approved, however long ago it was,
20 maybe a year ago, it's the same plan they've
21 just --
22 MEMBER SIMON: The same pool, the same
23 place.
24 MRS. MOORS: Yeah, the same pool,
25 everything. The same place, it's just
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ll
more
It'
t
ki
h
d
1 y
s ac
ua
ng.
e
ec
eliminating t
2 natural with grass.
3 MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions.
4 MRS. MOORE: Okay, good.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: No questions.
6 MEMBER OLIVA: No questions.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anyone else like to
8 speak?
9 Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
10 closing the hearing, reserving decision until
11 later.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
13 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
15 HEARING #6192 - Sean Gillan
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
17 "Request for a Variance under Section
18 280-15, based on the Building Inspector's June
19 4, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
20 proposed accessory garage exceeding 20 feet in
21 height with a proposed setback at less than 20
22 feet from the property line, at 220 Apple
23 Court, Southold; CTM 70-1-6. 6."
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Sir, would you like
25 to tell us why you need this structure?
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i
i
h
I'
1 m propos
ng
s a
at
MR. GILLAN: W
2 garage. We don't have a garage at this time.
3 We have a shed that has an existing variance
4 now. I think the existing variance was 9-1/2
5 feet from my neighbor to the west of me --
6 east of me and I'm proposing a 24 by 26 garage
7 with two doors and a storage space on the
8 second floor with stairs, which will be inside
9 to access the storage on the second floor, but
10 it will be 10 feet and I'm asking to go to 20
11 feet high.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You're asking for
. 13 what, 20 feet?
14 MR. GILLAN: Yes, 20 feet high.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 20 feet 8 inches.
16 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 20.8.
18 MR. GILLAN: 20.8.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay --
20 MR. GILLAN: The reason I'm placing it
21 there also is two reasons. One is the
22 driveway to get access to the garage. If do
23 it and move it over then that wouldn't be in
24 front of you, but then the driveway would be
25 in my backyard, in the middle of my backyard
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no mind to
hi
h i
l
i
h
1 s, w
c
s
an
er p
and the ot
2 you, but very mind to me, it's just line of
3 site for child safety. So I could see my
4 children -- my child in the backyard.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Leslie?
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think there's
7 really a huge impact. It's very nice looking
8 garage by the way. It's unheated, unfinished.
9 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: Extra storage for your
11 kid-stuff and all that.
12 MR. GILLAN: Some of the Trustees
13 (inaudible) my bay equipment. I have my
14 prongs and tongs and boat equipment and it's
15 all in my backyard. I want to put it inside
16 so it's more aesthetically nice for my
17 neighbors.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah and you're backed
19 up to a conservation easement.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, we need
21 water run-off.
22 MR. GILLAN: I'm sorry.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need leaders and
29 gutters.
25 MR. GILLAN: Yes. Yes.
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. 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And drywells.
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: And a drywell. That I'm
3 going to mention that it's not really shown on
4 here and we will have to have it but that's
5 okay, we can condition it on that.
6 MR. GILLAN: Okay, no problem.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's just going to have
8 to meet Code on that.
9 Just for the record, let me ask you, you
10 need -- the Code says you need 15-foot sight
11 and setbacks for a 20 foot structure.
12 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
• 13 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm just wondering why
14 another 5 feet is -- on the side yard is going
15 to be a problem for you.
16 MR. GILLAN: The main issue is that we
17 put a mudroom on the rear of our house and if
18 I do that then access to the Fire Department
19 anybody else unless they drive the truck down
20 on the left hand side is going to be a
21 problem. It will be -- there will be hard
22 access. Also, then it comes into the fact of
23 line of sight. When you look out the mudroom
24 now, I can see where my child is on a her big
25 wheel, but if I move it over 5 feet I lose
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. 1 m
f th
t
d
th
t
i
l
t
.
o
a
mu
roo
a
v
sua
ou
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. The 8 inches is
3 imperative, you think?
4 MR. GILLAN: Yes, so at least I could
5 have 7.0 headroom on the --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: 7-foot under the ridge?
7 MR. GILLAN: Yes, underneath the ridge so
8 at least I could have 7-foot to walk around.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I'm asking these
10 questions cause I want the record to reflect
11 the circumstances under which you're
12 requesting the variance.
. 13 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Why putting this in the
15 side yard is not a good idea. So that's why
16 I'm asking the questions.
17 MR. GILLAN: Yes, ma'am.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
20 MEMBER SIMON: Yes. Just following up on
21 that, according to the Notice of Disapproval
22 the required setback is 20 feet not 15 as I
23 read this, as you said, Leslie.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: 15 for a 20-foot high
25 structure. That's correct. Wait a minute,
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• t setback for a
15-f
d
h
C
d
1 oo
e nee
s a
no. T
e
o
2 20-foot high structure. This is 20.8, so --
3 MEMBER SIMON: No, I'm not talking about
4 the height, I'm talking about the setback.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: The setback. Right,
6 right. He's proposing --
7 MEMBER SIMON: On the Notice of
8 Disapproval it says --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: 20 feet.
10 MEMBER SIMON: I thought you said 15.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, because it's higher
12 than 20 feet high, that's why.
. 13 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: The 8 inches that's
15 creating the condition of the setback because
16 it's over the 20 feet in height.
17 MEMBER SIMON: I see. Okay. Alright, so
18 the --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I said how
20 come you don't lower it --
21 BOARD ASST.: They're both correct. The
22 Notice of Disapproval is correct also.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, they are.
24 MEMBER SIMON: The Disapproval doesn't
25 mention that it's -- it doesn't notice that
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1 it's 20 foot -- the Disapproval is, strictly
2 speaking, not correct.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute.
9 MEMBER SIMON: Because for this
5 particular structure --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it does. It is,
7 because for a minimum setbacks for greater
8 than 20 feet is 20 feet and it's greater than
9 20 feet, it's 20.8, 8 inches.
10 BOARD ASST.: So that's correct.
11 MEMBER SIMON: Otherwise it would be 15.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's right.
13 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: So I was saying if you
15 need the 8 inches maybe you could conform to
16 the 15-foot side yard --
17 MEMBER SIMON: I see.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that would be
19 required by the 20-foot high structure.
20 That's what I was going back and forth with.
21 MEMBER SIMON: Right. The issue before
22 us and, you know, we do balancing tests on all
23 of these taking in your considerations about
24 line of sight and so on is you're asking for
25 by this a 50-percent variance on the setback
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1 for a garage in a lot that if you look at it
2 aside from the consideration, it's a pretty
3 big yard and there's a lot of room there. Why
4 you need -- with your argument depends on
5 making the case or having the Board making the
6 case that the considerations warrant a 50-
7 percent setback just for those reasons rather
8 than for reasons like there's no other place
9 to put it or something like that.
10 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
11 MEMBER SIMON: So I'm just mentioning
12 that, but you're confident that the reasons
13 that you're submitting are as good as you can
14 come up with to justify the variance.
15 MR. GILLAN: If you look at my survey it
16 shows that my property is a pie and you know -
17 -
18 MEMBER SIMON: It's a what?
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a pie.
20 MR. GILLAN: It's pie-shaped and the
21 problem is access to the garage. I'm paving
22 my backyard basically to get to my driveway to
23 get to my garage. Aesthetically and also if
29 anyone seen my house, I redid the house kind
25 of as what I thought a New England house
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• 1 should look like, almost like a salt-box. So
2 I want this to be aesthetically nice for my
3 neighbors, too. I just thought it would be --
4 if it was anywhere in my backyard it wouldn't
5 look aesthetically nice.
6 BOARD ASST.: There's something else you
7 had mentioned to me when you had filed the
8 application, too, you said the 100-foot
9 conservation easement that you own in back you
10 can't build on it.
11 MR. GILLAN: No, no nothing.
12 MEMBER SIMON: That's part of your lawn,
. 13 right?
14 MR. GILLAN: Yes. Yes, that's my
15 restriction coverage.
16 MEMBER SIMON: You can't do anything with
17 it, although, I believe you cited when you
18 made the application, you cited the need for
19 play space for your children and the
20 conservation easement is available for play
21 space.
22 MR. GILLAN: Uh-huh.
23 MEMBER SIMON: Which is one that you
29 cited.
25 MR. GILLAN: Yes, but I'm not arguing
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1 that. She can play back there, but I'll have
2 no line of sight if I move that garage over.
3 That's one of the major concerns.
4 MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Alright.
5 MR. GILLAN: That might not be a concern
6 of the Board, but --
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think that's a
8 legitimate statement. I really -- I think
9 that has great credence in this situation to
10 be honest with you.
11 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think it does and
• 13 the fact that you're going to eat up your
14 backyard if you move the structure over more.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Absolutely.
16 MR. GILLAN: The main thing is also I
17 didn't want to pave -- if you look at the
18 front of my house, I redid it to -- it's
19 almost like Levittown. If you go to Levittown
20 now everything is changed. Every other house
21 is changed now. This was originally
22 affordable housing. I bought it after that
23 fact and what happened was I thought that
24 structure didn't fit what the Town of Southold
25 has. It was vinyl siding and it didn't fit.
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•
•
1 So what I did was I redid it. I did it as a
2 salt-box and then when I contemplated this
3 garage I wanted to take it aesthetically and
4 then I came into other problems. Line of
5 sight and then the variance to get the room
6 upstairs and that's why I'm here today.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, well I don't think
8 that 8 inches, you know, is a crisis one way
9 or the other.
10 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: I mean it has to do with
12 your roof. That certainly is not a problem.
13 It's a very nice looking accessory structure
14 that you're proposing and, personally, given
15 the envelope in which you can actually locate
16 something this is kind of a funny way, you
17 know, the 20-foot setback from where the
18 conservation easement starts and 10-foot side
19 yard is not an unreasonable side yard. You
20 know, it's not having an impact on your
21 neighbors that's negative in any way, but I
22 wanted, as I said, to have the record reflect
23 why you would have some difficulty -- if you
24 go to the site without seeing the survey, you
25 would not know there was an easement you
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•
1 couldn't build on.
2 MR. GILLAN: Yes.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: You'd say wow you got
4 this huge backyard, move it over a few feet.
5 So, you know, but safety reasons for a side
6 yard in terms of safety equipment are one
7 thing and safety reasons for children to play
8 are something else this Board, I think, ought
9 to take into consideration. Although, you
10 know, you also have to realize in future you
11 may sell the house and they may be people
12 without children for whom that reason is not -
13 - that reason may be pertinent now, but it may
14 not necessarily be perpetually. Even when
15 you're kids are grown up, it's probably not
16 going to be important, but it is important now
17 and, you know, I don't have any other
18 questions about it. I think it's pretty
19 straight forward.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
21 Okay, seeing no hands I'll make a motion
22 closing the hearing, reserve decision until
23 later.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
25 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
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2 HEARING #6195 - Eugenia Lambiris
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
4 ~~Request for a Special Exception under
5 Section 280-13B to establish an Accessory
6 Apartment in this single-family dwelling, with
7 owner-occupancy. Location of Property: 235
8 Captain Kidd Drive, Lot #192, Map of Captain
9 Kidd Estates, Block 15, situated at Mattituck:
10 CTM 106-5-4."
11 Mrs. Moore?
12 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
13 Good afternoon. I'm here with Eugenia
14 Lambiris, who is here. This is Mrs. Lambiris,
15 also many of her family members are here and
16 certainly in support and I do see some
17 neighbors that are here as well and I'm sure
18 you'll hear from them.
19 What -- this was an existing house that
20 got renovated and during the renovation there
21 is space that -- there is plenty of space in
22 this house and there was room for an accessory
23 apartment, which three of you may have gone in
24 and seen inside. Okay. It's a lovely
25 accessory apartment really --
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. 1 MEMBER OLIVA: I'd move in tomorrow
.
2 MRS. MOORE: I would too. I would love
3 to live there. In fact, it's very similar to
4 the one that my dad lives in, which is again
5 nice materials, it's clean, bright and a
6 lovely place.
7 The Zoning Code allows for an accessory
8 apartment as a Special Exception and certainly
9 I know you know what the standards are, but
10 just for the record and for the neighbors,
11 just so they understand what the request is, a
12 Special Exception use as it's defined in our
. 13 Code is "a use that is deemed appropriate in a
14 particular district if specified conditions
15 are met."
16 The Southold Town Code has very specific
17 provisions. One of being able to put in an
18 accessory apartment in your house, your house
19 must be of a certain vintage, which we did
20 qualify for. You have the CO and the original
21 house was, I believe, built in the `70s. The
22 renovations took place, but the original house
23 was built in the `70s. The accessory
24 apartment must be in the principle building,
25 which it is. It must be owner-occupied, which
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• M
L
bi
i
i
l
ill b
h
i
1 ere.
rs.
am
r
s
n
y w
e
t certa
2 lives here year-round and this is her primary
3 residence and continues. It can't be more
4 than a certain percentage of the square feet
5 of the full residence and they have 31.4
6 percent reserved for the apartment, which is
7 square footage -- it is a roomy, comfortable
t
8 apartment. Let's see -- it can't exceed 40
9 percent of the living space and we're well
10 below that.
11 We have to provide adequate parking,
12 which there are three parking spaces shown on
13 the site plan. She obviously uses one. There
19 are spaces for two other cars, one for a guest
15 and one for the occupant. This would be
16 rented very likely to a single professional,
17 single individual, maybe a couple, but it's
18 not really conducive to family. It's not
19 appropriate for a full family.
20 Again, the house was built -- the
21 condition that it be a certain vintage, it was
22 built in 1976. I remember the `70s, '76. The
23 entrance to the accessory apartment, I stand
24 corrected, I looked at the plans and before I
25 looked at the -- I went to see the apartment.
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• the first
it'
th
id
i
1 s on
s on
e s
e,
The entrance
2 floor, so it's -- the house really does not
3 show as being anything other than a single-
4 family residence and the access that you see
5 if for her residence. You actually-- for her
6 portion of the house, she has the first floor,
7 which is set up very nicely as a -- with a
8 pool area since the pool is in the back. It's
9 kind of an open area then you go up the steps
10 and her residence is a beautifully appointed
11 mostly kitchen, living area and her bedrooms.
12 So the rest of the house is Mrs. Lambiris'
13 private residence. So as I said, the exterior
14 there are no alterations that are needed to
15 this house at all. The house is as it would
16 be with an accessory apartment or without an
17 accessory apartment. It is as it was
18 renovated.
19 She does understand that the accessory
20 apartment can only continue, under the current
21 regulations, while she is an owner-occupant.
22 So there are permit requirements that the Town
23 can certainly monitor for the sake of the
29 neighbors. If you get people that are unruly,
25 difficult, so on. If the owner doesn't see
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hi
h I
ld
i
h
l
1 ves, w
wou
t t
emse
c
fit to handle
2 expect, people that are owner-occupied would
3 be concerned about the people that are living
9 in the house with them, there is the
5 opportunity to have the Town intervene with
6 respect to monitoring the occupancy. So the
7 Building Inspector issues renewal certificates
8 of occupancy annually just to monitor that a
9 legal accessory apartment has been created.
10 That's in a residential zone, it doesn't apply
11 in commercial zones, but in a residential zone
12 it is monitored.
. 13 Some of these are repetitive so I won't
14 go into them again. We are in a one-acre
15 zoning district. Captain Kidd, I can
16 appreciate, is a very tight-knit small home,
17 small property, but this house is really very
18 nicely done. Personally, I was quite
19 impressed when I saw it. She's maintained the
20 property beautifully. It's landscaped and she
21 has a very nice pool in the back as well,
22 which is appointed like a, not to give it, you
23 know, it's a spa-type setting rather than what
24 I'm used to living in. So I'm certainly --
25 we're all here to answer whatever questions
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1 you may have, specific questions and I'm sure
2 that there are questions that the neighbors
3 have and we'll address any issues that you'd
4 like me to answer. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ruth, any
6 questions?
7 MEMBER OLIVA: No, I was there. I liked
8 it because it's an accessory apartment I'm
9 looking around and --
10 MRS. MOORE: You didn't know which --
11 MEMBER OLIVA: -- it's on the side and
12 it's a nice porch area and right inside there
13 is the living room and dining room, gorgeous
19 kitchen and two nice bedrooms and beautiful
15 bath.
16 MRS. MOORE: It is a very -- it's a
17 beautiful (inaudible) --
18 MEMBER OLIVA: It's very convenient if
19 somebody was handicapped or something, it's
20 all on the first floor. I could find no fault
21 with it.
22 MRS. MOORE: I'm glad you felt that way.
23 MEMBER OLIVA: A lot of people would love
24 it.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I should make my
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. members of the
1983 th
I
t
l
t
t
1 n
e
emen
.
norma
s
a
2 Zoning Board appeared at the Association of
3 the Towns, which we do every year,
4 unfortunately I didn't make it this year, and
5 what was presented to us from the Town of
6 Babylon, which at that time was 95 percent
7 built out, for the actual installation of a
8 Special Permit for the use that's before us
9 today. I took that back to the Town Board and
10 to the Code Committee and we hammered out this
11 particular provision, which is in the Code and
12 as it sits today.
13 It has been extremely effective for
14 people who in some cases live alone. Some
15 people have difficulty affording their houses
16 or people that are just in need of having
17 someone in the house with them in a different
18 situation, meaning in a separate apartment.
19 The actual (inaudible) has been on the books
20 since around 1984 and we've had some really
21 interesting cases before us regarding this.
22 We have never to this date, to my
23 knowledge, pulled a permit for an accessory
24 apartment. We've never had to. We have
25 definitely pulled permits for other things
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• retionar
t
i
di
h
h
d
h
1 y
a cer
a
n
sc
ave
a
at we
t
2 question about and I can go far with that.
3 I'm not going to belabor this topic. I'm only
4 going to tell this audience as we stand -- as
5 I sit before you, it has been effective. It
6 has worked and that was the purpose of it.
7 What goes on from this particular point on in
8 years to come and how it is stretched and
9 maybe changed in some ways, it has not
10 essentially been changed or modified to any
11 great degree since the installation of this
12 law or the construction of this law and
• 13 putting it in place since that time.
14 With that in mind, Leslie, do you have
15 any questions?
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. The renovations
17 took place at about 2005 and 6, I believe. At
18 that time, prior to the creation of the
19 accessory, which is now an as built accessory
20 apartment, it -- there was no permit -- no
21 Special Permit applied for at the time of that
22 renovation.
23 MRS. MOORS: Prior to the renovation, no.
29 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right. Well, I mean
25 this is not a proposal to create an accessory
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1 apartment, but rather to legalize one because
2 it's there.
3 MRS. MOORS: Yeah.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: It was built at the time
5 this house was renovated. Now, it meets --
6 that's troublesome only procedurally because,
7 you know, one should apply for a permit to
8 create it before the fact not particularly
9 after the fact. It certainly meets all the
10 criteria that a Special Permit requires in
11 terms of on-site parking and entrance, it's
12 beautifully done. When I was there I met Mrs.
• 13 Lambiris and she indicated, at the time, and I
14 just want to state this for the record so
15 we're clear, this is not probative per se, but
16 just for clarification she was going to occupy
17 or is occupying the accessory apartment and
18 her daughter and their children or her
19 grandchildren were out on weekends and using
20 the rest of the house and that this was to
21 provide her with privacy from the extended
22 family. I believe you said that the intent is
23 that she will occupy the --
24 MRS. MOORS: The main house, yes.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- main principle
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1 lli
d
d
t?
we
ren
ng an
2 MRS. MOORE: For non-related. What
3 happened, and I don't know when you guys
4 spoke, but --
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: When we visited on
6 Saturday.
7 MRS. MOORE: I don't know, honestly there
8 may be a language barrier there, but I don't
9 know -- my understanding is her daughter is
10 here now and there has been a change of
11 circumstances in the sense that her daughter
12 who is here is in medical school and what her
13 -- originally there was going to be an
14 allocation of space between family. Having
15 the family in one space and her in the smaller
16 space, but as it turned out her daughter is
17 now in medical school. The other family
18 really doesn't need to occupy that space and
19 this renovation got a little bit out of hand,
20 a little costly. So financially it is --
21 she's -- divorced, a single parent.
22 It would be -- I think you pointed out
23 for all the reasons that it makes sense to
24 have somebody there. Sole income, the house
25 is really much too big for her, she's here and
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erson around is
th
r
f
h
i
1 p
ano
e
e company o
ng t
hav
2 often very helpful. So it really fits nicely
3 to have the ability to, while her family is
4 getting situated, and again her hope is her
5 daughter, she was just telling me, that her
6 hope assuming that medical school goes the way
7 you'd like is that she might get a residency
8 in Stony Brook and then be able to come back.
9 Then, yeah, the accessory apartment would
10 actually be good for her daughter, but to have
11 that interim step is really -- it allows
12 flexibility. I know I've done a couple of
13 accessory apartment applications, there aren't
14 that many. Amazingly enough we don't get a
15 lot. Probably there are a lot of illegal
16 ones.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm sure.
18 MRS. MOORS: But certainly legal ones
19 that have gone through this process that their
20 circumstances change. It's nice to have the
21 legality of having an accessory apartment that
22 can be advertised for a couple or an
23 individual in between.
24 MEMBER SIMON: For the rent.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, for the rent.
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• 1 I mean
for the rent
MOORE: Yeah
MRS
.
,
.
2 that is the -- if we can all afford to live in
3 a mansion, we would.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not in any way
5 objecting.
6 MRS. MOORE: No I --
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm trying to put -- as
8 a matter of fact, the Code permits Mrs.
9 Lambiris to live in either the principle
10 dwelling or the accessory apartment, either
11 way.
12 MRS. MOORE: Right.
• 13 MEMBER WEISMAN: As long as she is in
14 residence, she may give the space to somebody
15 or rent the space to somebody legally as long
16 all of those criteria are met and I believe
17 they are. I wanted to clarify the situation
18 for the record so that --
19 MRS. MOORE: Right. Because my
20 understanding is that if it were family,
21 exclusively family, there probably would be no
22 need for an accessory apartment --
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the way it
24 (inaudible) there would be because it has two
25 full kitchens.
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C
u
1 MRS. MOORS: The kitchens. Yeah.
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: So it is a self-
3 contained unit with an exterior entrance and
4 so on. It is not even, the way it's laid out
5 now, connected on the interior.
6 MRS. MOORS: There is an ability to
7 connect.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's an ability to
9 connect, but it is not now.
10 MRS. MOORS: There is a door on one side
11 but it's been sealed up on the outside.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: So it is separated.
13 MRS. MOORS: Right.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: All I'm trying to do is
15 indicate that what we're talking about is
16 legalizing an existing accessory apartment
17 that will be owner occupied, whether it's a
18 principle dwelling or the other.
19 MRS. MOORS: Yes, exactly. One or the
20 other, right, will have the owner.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: That through this
22 legalization there will be the opportunity to
23 rent.
24 MRS. MOORS: Right. Thank you.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: No other questions.
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• i
d th
t thi
d
t
1 an
a
s
s
ers
MEMBER SIMON: I un
2 -- we're talking about something very unusual,
3 I think, is we do lots of as-built
4 applications as you know. This is the first
5 that I know of and I haven't been on the Board
6 that long where we have an as-built regarding
7 something that requires special permission.
8 MRS. MOORS: No, actually I had one.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: A few years ago we had
10 one right up, in fact, it might have been
11 yours, Pat.
12 MRS. MOORS: Yes, it was. It was an
• 13 elderly woman that had a renter in there and
14 the family was --
15 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
16 MRS. MOORS: She was kind of one step
17 from the nursing home and one step out.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
19 MRS. MOORS: Yeah.
20 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, well even so, the
21 situation here, as you know and most of us
22 know, is the whole question about the
23 legislation -- changing the legislation
24 regarding accessory apartments and making it
25 easier to apply rather than harder. So the
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1 law right now says they have to be built
2 before 1984 and so there is talk about
3 changing it to make it any house. You could
4 build one from scratch today.
5 MRS. MOORE: (Inaudible) in favor of that
6 because I know --
7 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, I think a lot of
8 people are in favor of it. Certainly in the
9 (inaudible) there would be a lot of interest
10 in that sort of thing and for pretty good
11 reasons, to help people stay in their homes
12 and be able to help to afford to live there
• 13 and so on. However, that's a matter of
14 changing the Code and here we have a case of
15 the Code which is already written and the
16 question is how can we accommodate ourselves
17 to the Code. Maybe it can be in this
18 particular case, but it's a little bit dicey.
19 Let me ask you a couple of specific
20 questions. You're saying that the renovation
21 was done in 2005 and that included the
22 building of the accessory apartment; is that
23 correct?
29 MRS. MOORE: Well, the space was
25 allocated for -- that was the area.
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b
BER SIMON
Wh
t d
1 o you mean
y
:
a
MEM
2 allocated?
3 MRS. MOORE: I mean when you're doing the
4 layout. The architects are laying it out,
5 this is, you know, if you're going to do an
6 accessory apartment you kind of plan --
7 MEMBER SIMON: Let me change --
8 MRS. MOORE: -- it out.
9 MEMBER SIMON: Let me ask you another
10 question. How long has it been in the form it
11 now is?
12 MRS. MOORS: I don't know the answer to
13 that.
14 MEMBER SIMON: I mean has it been three
15 years or has it been six months?
16 MRS. MOORS: No, the CO -- I mean they
17 would have had to get a CO as a single-family
18 and that's the final inspection. So it would
19 have been post a CO that essentially a stove
20 would have gone in. So -- but I don't know --
21 MEMBER SIMON: Wait, does the CO say
22 there's a stove there?
23 MRS. MOORS: Probably not, it's a single-
29 family.
25 MEMBER SIMON: So this was done -- I just
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I hear
was done
thi
h
t
fi
1 .
w
en
s
gure ou
want to
2 the plans and the speculation of the daughter
3 in medical school. One question that occurred
4 to me was was this thing planned as an
5 accessory apartment before the daughter went
6 to medical school?
7 MRS. MOORS: I don't know. I mean this
8 is really -- I guess that question is
9 relevant.
10 MEMBER SIMON: The only reason I'm
11 mentioning it is --
12 MRS. MOORS: I don't want to put her in a
• 13 well,
position where Code Enforcement says
14 -
thank you very much, Mr. Simon for -
15 MEMBER SIMON: No, no. You introduced
16 the notion of the use and the daughter and the
17 change in family circumstances.
18 MRS. MOORS: No, no. We were talking
19 about --
20 MEMBER SIMON: You (inaudible).
21 MRS. MOORS: Yes, but I think Leslie was
22 asking is this going to -- the statement I
23 guess she was making is going to -- the
29 statement I think she was making was this
25 might have been for family or not and I'm
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• 1 saying that the whole purpose for an accessory
2 apartment application is so it is not strictly
3 for family. It is to be able to rent it to
9 somebody unrelated. I thought that was the
5 response I made.
6 MEMBER SIMON: Would we agree that while
7 now does seem to be an appropriate time for
8 them to get it legalized so it can be rented
9 to non-family, so that anyone can live in it,
10 in fact, it has been used as an accessory
11 apartment for several years (inaudible)?
12 MRS. MOORS: It's 2008, the C0 --
13 MEMBER SIMON: That's right 2005 was the
14 year you mentioned.
15 MRS. MOORS: -- so it started the
16 renovation.
17 MEMBER SIMON: When did -- when was the -
18 -
19 MRS. MOORS: So 2006.
20 MEMBER SIMON: If the C of 0 was issued
21 in 2006, did that include the accessory
22 apartment that now exists?
23 MRS. MOORS: No, because it was a single
24 family. Additions, alterations and existing
25 single-family, November of '06 is the CO.
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did it
h
did --
Wh
1 w
en
en
MEMBER SIMON:
2 become, in fact, an accessory apartment?
3 MRS. MOORE: All -- I guess technically
4 when the kitchen goes in.
5 MEMBER SIMON: When did that happen?
6 MRS. MOORE: I don't know. When did the
7 kitchen go in? Come on up. You're asking
8 very personal questions, but --
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: She needs to state
10 her name.
11 MS. LAMBIRIS: Good afternoon. My name
12 is Irene, I'm the oldest daughter and when we
13 originally planned the house we were all going
14 to be using it and enjoying it in the summer
15 and living with my mom, but at the time when
16 we started renovating I had gotten my
17 acceptance letter. So we had to make some
18 adjustments. We were thinking as we were
19 renovating what we're going to do now because
20 one-third of the income was going to help with
21 the mortgage is going to be going to my
22 career. So it was one of those, as we were
23 renovating, the idea came up that perhaps we
24 can have some sort of apartment there and we
25 can use it as a functional accessory, in the
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r~
f~
1 future, potentially. We weren't sure what was
2 going to happen. We are three brothers and
3 sisters and the way the house is out laid now
9 we would all have sort of individual privacy
5 and again also be one family.
6 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, I understand --
7 BOARD ASST.: Could I have your full
8 name, please?
9 MS. LAMBIRIS: Irene Lambiris.
10 BOARD ASST.: I-R-A-N-E?
11 MS. LAMBIRIS: I-R-E-N-E.
12 BOARD ASST.: Thank you very much.
13 MEMBER SIMON: I understand this and I'm
14 not -- I have no interest in exploring the
15 family details and discussions on this. I'm
16 trying to get the dates correct. Let me say
17 clear, there is a situation where you have an
18 apartment now exists and you want the legal
19 right to rent it. Right now, if you want to -
20 -
21 MRS. MOORE: Well, if you deny it we have
22 to take out the kitchen.
23 MEMBER SIMON: I'm not talking about what
24 happens if you don't get what you want, I want
25 to be clear what you do want and when you
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1 wanted it and at the moment in order to do
2 this, if this variance is approved, all that
3 has to happen is to (inaudible).
4 BOARD ASST.: No a Special Permit.
5 MEMBER SIMON: Special Permit, Special
6 Permit. Okay, prior to this that's the only
7 change, apparently, that needs to be made. In
8 other words, it has been a in fact
9 functionally an accessory apartment for some
10 time for a year or two or whatever and --
11 MRS. MOORE: About a year.
12 MEMBER SIMON: Okay and whether the
. 13 apartment could have been granted at that time
14 is very crucial because it makes this the
15 (inaudible) probably because if it had been
16 not only would you not be here now, but quite
17 possibly there would be no problem with regard
18 to granting the special permission now. Okay?
19 So if it was eligible regardless of family
20 circumstances --
21 MRS. MOORE: Okay, now I know where
22 you're going. Go ahead.
23 MEMBER SIMON: -- as stated, and a
24 principle that I use is when we grant an as-
25 built the standard that some of us like to use
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•
1 is would this have been approved had it been
2 applied for at the relevant time?
3 MRS. MOORE: Right.
4 MEMBER SIMON: And that's what I'm
5 interested in, not what happened since then,
6 who's going to live there, who's been living
7 there, who's going to live there next year or
8 the year after.
9 MRS. MOORE: Well, if you go through my
10 first ten minutes of going through the
11 standards, it would have been applicable then
12 as it is applicable now. There has been --
13 there is no functional change to the house,
14 the doorways, nothing. So with respect to
15 meeting all of the criteria, it would be
16 wonderful if this had been asked for like
17 during the midst of construction when this
18 thought first went into her head I could have,
19 you know, if I had been hired, obviously, we
20 would have come in and asked for permission to
21 take that portion of the house and make it an
22 accessory apartment and we would have had to
23 show you exactly what we're shown you today.
29 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
25 MRS. MOORE: There's no difference other
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the finished
t th
t
f
1 now you see
a
ac
than the
2 product, what it looks like rather than as you
3 mostly do in, you know, on paper. So you
4 actually get to see the space and so it's
5 actually -- it's more obvious that this
6 apartment is a high-quality apartment for
7 someone by virtue of the materials and the
8 space and that they have not spared any
9 expense in the house nor in the apartment. So
10 you get to see it, in fact, in a completed
11 form.
12 Yes, its use would have been easier -- it
. 13 would have been simpler to just come and get
19 it during the --
15 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
16 MRS. MOORE: -- construction.
17 MEMBER SIMON: Now, this house -- because
18 you're answering the question I think it's the
19 most important question. What would it have
20 been like had this been applied for a couple
21 of years ago? The answer is no difference.
22 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Just one follow up
24 question and I suspect the people in the
25 audience would like to be heard and perhaps we
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• ith that
t
h
ld
1 .
on w
ge
ou
s
2 That's absolutely true, the likelihood
3 that it would have been granted if applied
4 for, had it been applied for at the time of
5 the construction, and the only reason I
6 brought it up is it complies with all the
7 requirements because it's certainly possible,
8 in fact, it's often probable that homeowners
9 are really unaware of the law and what it is
10 they have to do especially when they do things
11 as it's unfolding. So this is in no way a
12 reflection of any impropriety on behalf of the
13 family, the applicant.
19 The person who built this, who did these
15 renovations is another story. That's a
16 professional who ought to know and does know
17 the law and so, you know, I think as a legal
18 body we have an obligation to do our best to
19 uphold laws as best we can and in this
20 situation that should have actually happened
21 before the fact. It's no doubt, given these
22 circumstances, this would have been granted at
23 that time, but I think it's important for us
24 to recognize that we abide by these Codes for
25 a reason and that it's often very difficult
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thi
l
ith
d
1 some
ng
w
ea
for us as a Board to go
2 that's as-built because then it's a huge
3 heartbreak for someone who spent all the money
4 to put something together and then what do we
5 do? You know? But in this case, this
6 criteria would have been granted likely if it
7 had been applied for in the way that we now
8 see it, the answer is frankly yes. So that
9 helps us, but it is problematic for the Board
10 to have to be granting variances for something
11 like a Special Permit when it should have been
12 applied for at the time, but it's done.
13 MRS. MOORE: I appreciate you recognizing
14 the difference between the professional who
15 should know about that versus the property
16 owner who's relying on the professional.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, I --
18 MRS. MOORE: So I really think there is a
19 distinction.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, there is a
21 distinction that we should make.
22 MRS. MOORE: Alright, well is there
23 anything else? I'll sit down and I'll wait.
29 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Who would like to
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1 speak for or against this application?
2 Starting on the -- yes, sir. State your name
3 for the record.
9 MR. CALADOR: Paul Calador (sic) I live
5 at 305 Soundview Drive in the area. I don't
6 mean to be against or in favor here, I don't
7 know. From the discussion here and the lady
8 went through explaining in detail the bathroom
9 and the floor and then she didn't know when
10 the apartment -- the house was made into a
11 two-family house. In effect, that's what
12 we're doing here. We're turning a one-family
13 house into a two-family. Could you kindly
14 tell to me when was that work done, after the
15 CO or before?
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They don't seem to
17 know.
18 MR. CALADOR: Let me talk. They seem to
19 know the layout and this and that, but the
20 important thing like that nobody knows?
21 That's strange. Now, because if that's the
22 case that means in that area anybody could
23 build what is in effect a one-family house, a
29 two-family house and get away with it.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not really because
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1 they don't have the force of law, Paul, and
2 the force of law is the permit and the permit
3 can only be granted by this Board. The Town
4 Board gave us that right in 1984 to do that,
5 okay, and so yes, they can build it and it can
6 be illegal, but it skirts the force of law
7 because you don't have the permit. That's the
8 story.
9 MR. CALADOR: But it seems like you
10 people are very -- or you did that before you
11 did the permits every time they come up. So
12 in effect what's the sense of having the law?
• 13 If we break it every time we (inaudible),
14 I don't understand what this is all about.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Let me comment on that
16 for a moment. It's very clear that there are
17 a number -- we all know that there are many
18 accessory apartments throughout Southold Town
19 that are illegal. We all know that and we
20 also know that enforcement is very difficult.
21 You need a search warrant to go into
22 somebody's private property. Okay?
23 The Town Board has, for some time, been
24 working on making great efforts toward
25 recognizing the difficulty of dealing with
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• 1 It is not
artments
al a
ill
th
.
p
ese
eg
2 considered a two-family dwelling, by the way,
3 when an accessory apartment is created.
4 That's a different kind of category.
5 An accessory apartment has a whole
6 series, and it's right on the Code and that's
7 what Ms. Moore was really referring to, there
8 are a whole series of regulations that an
9 accessory apartment has to conform to in order
10 for them to be legalized and to have a
11 certificate of occupancy and that's what we
12 were talking about earlier. Those criteria
• 13 have to do with parking spaces, have to do
14 with how big it can be relative to the size of
15 the house. Have to do with the fact that the
16 owner is going to be in there, it's not going
17 to be a landlord who's absent with tenants who
18 they have no idea if they are good neighbors
19 or bad neighbors. The person who owns the
20 property lives in the property and has a right
21 to take a piece of that house, which is no
22 more than 40 percent of the size of the house,
23 okay, to create a small unit within -- that
24 has a kitchen basically. It's a bedroom,
25 bathroom, (inaudible) whatever, the only
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h
i
it
S
i
h
i
1 as an oven
n
.
o
difference
s t
at
t
2 you can cook in there instead of cooking in a
3 shared kitchen.
4 So the point is it's not a two0family
5 house and the point is that there are a series
6 of Code requirements that in this particular
7 case this house meets those requirements.
8 Okay, that's what the attorney was attempting
9 to describe. We are all sympathetic to the
10 fact that there are countless illegal
11 apartments created all the time by people who
12 should know better and who are getting away
13 with murder, in some cases, charging
14 exorbitant rents, you know, to the detriment
15 of all of us and they're not even up to Code
16 necessarily. I mean that's the other problem
17 some of the can be dangerous to actually live
18 in and in basements where people really are
19 not by law allowed to live in.
20 MEMBER OLIVA: Once the permit is given,
21 if we give a permit for an accessory
22 apartment, the Building Department --
23 MR. CALADOR: I want to follow up a
24 little bit on what the lady said. But, once
25 this is complete, once this permit is given
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't k
if
th
b
i
i
I d
id i
1 now
eg
nn
ng
on
and I sa
n
e
2 I'm against or in favor, I just need to know.
3 Once the process is finished I don't
4 understand what's the difference between a
5 two-family home and what you're going to do if
6 you going to do it --
7 MEMBER OLIVA: Annual inspections to make
8 sure that what we gave them as an accessory
9 apartment remains as an accessory apartment
10 and not a two-family house. No one checks a
11 two-family house.
12 MR. CALADOR: Excuse me, again I think
. 13 you're missing the point. Forget about the
14 inspection, physically, what is the difference
15 once you give the permit for somebody to
16 collect rent. I can't understand what is the
17 difference between two-family house and
18 whatever you call this special thing.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: A two-family house
20 requires four acres of land.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: And there's no owner
22 occupancy.
23 MR. CALADOR: Alright.
29 Okay, this makes a worse situation here
25 because you have no four acres and they're in
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1 h -- in effect what
ou
fi
i
ff
t -- l
t
y
me
n
s
ec
e
e
2 have after this is completed a two-family
3 house.
4 MEMBER OLIVA: No.
5 MR. CALADOR: Okay, I give up.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, it's owner-occupied.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: It's owner-occupied and
8 the Building Department comes and inspects it
9 every year to make sure that the conditions
10 that the Zoning Board of Appeals puts on the
11 accessory apartment and the house are carried
12 out. If they're not, the permit is revoked
13 and it's no longer an accessory apartment.
19 They're out.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: By the way, it does not
16 go with the deed either. If Mrs. Lambiris
17 decides to sell, this expires. This is a
18 permit granted to the current owner.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Only.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Only and it doesn't stay
21 there forever. The circumstances -- that's
22 why it's annually evaluated. If she decides
23 to sell the house outright, the new owner does
29 not get that Special Permit.
25 MR. CALADOR: It's ironic. I come from
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. 1 o and I come
ears a
inall
25
i
N
J
g
y
y
ew
ersey or
g
2 from a single-family dwelling. I built my
3 mother father elderly people, like they say
4 here. I was not allowed to put a stove in
5 there so she can make coffee in the morning
6 and I had to leave their doors open to the
7 rest of the house in order to comply with one-
8 family house. Seems like in Southold you make
9 rules and then find all kinds of ways to break
10 them. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
12 Would you state your name for the record,
• 13 please?
19 MR. LAMOGA: Good afternoon, George
15 Lamoga from Mattituck. I'm representing
16 Captain Kidd Association where the apartment
17 is. I've had several calls from the residents
18 in the area who are dead set against the
19 apartment. Okay, so there is no one way or
20 another for this situation. People don't want
21 it for several reasons, which we'll go over
22 now.
23 The first question I have is was there an
24 apartment there before? Does anyone know
25 that?
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• ccessor
N
t
l
l
MEMBER OLIVA
1 y
a
ega
a
:
o
2 apartment, no.
3 MR. LAMOGA: Okay, when was the
4 renovation done?
5 MEMBER OLIVA: 2006 did you say, Pat?
6 MR. LAMOGA: I'd like to know for sure,
7 okay? I have to get back to the community.
8 MEMBER OLIVA: (inaudible) ask the
9 attorney.
10 MRS. MOORE: 2006 was the building
11 permit.
12 MR. LAMOGA: What was the building permit
• 13 for?
14 MEMBER OLIVA: Pat, what was the building
15 permit for?
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need you to come
17 up.
18 MRS. MOORE: Okay, well I don't have the
19 building permit. I have the CO. It's
20 addition (inaudible) to an existing single-
21 family dwelling as applied for. So I'm
22 assuming it's paraphrasing --
23 MR. LAMOGA: Did it include a petition
29 for an apartment?
25 MRS. MOORE: I think we went over that.
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• rd a
es
't h
ll
I h
GA
W
1 y
aven
ea
,
MR. LAMO
:
e
2 or no.
3 MRS. MOORE: Do you want me to speak or -
4 -
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think the answer
6 is no.
7 MR. LAMOGA: Okay, clearly no. Thank
8 you. I just want to be sure, okay. I have to
9 tell people whether it's one way or another.
10 How much room is there for parking?
11 MRS. MOORE: There are spaces shown on
12 the site plan in the circular driveway for
• 13 three cars.
14 MR. LAMOGA: I believe in the community
15 there are many, many people that come out to
16 visit during the summertime. Okay, they're
17 here, right? Their families come out and
18 visit and have no need for an apartment. This
19 has been happening all along. There is a
20 person on the Board who had an apartment
21 across the street from me for a number of
22 years, correct? Plenty of parking in the
23 driveway, correct?
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yup.
25 MR. LAMOGA: One of the difficulties, I
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ki
f
th
f
'
1 ree cars.
par
ng
or
s plenty o
hear there
2 I have two pictures here now I'd like to show
3 you. One, we'll start with the first one.
4 That was just put on the access to the
5 outside.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think you have a
7 problem here because I think the Building
8 Department is the only one that could answer
9 that and we're not -- we don't have a Building
10 Inspector here.
11 MR. LAMOGA: Okay. Can we get that
12 answer from the Building Department seeing how
• 13 you're the Zoning Board?
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We certainly can
15 ask the Building Inspector to come, but we
16 don't know if that has any relevance in this
17 particular case.
18 MR. LAMOGA: It does if that was an
19 apartment already planned and permission was
20 given. I'm hearing permission wasn't given
21 for an apartment. Does that not look like
22 access to an apartment? Yes or no?
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My understanding is
24 --
25 MR. LAMOGA: Does it look, I just want to
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• k like an access to an
it l
D
1 oo
oes
know.
2 apartment?
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: First of all, I
4 think the access is downstairs.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
6 MR. LAMOGA: Then who is living upstairs?
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: The family.
g MR. LAMOGA: Now the owner is elderly and
9 she's living upstairs?
10 MEMBER OLIVA: She's not elderly.
11 MR. LAMOGA: So the person who's going to
12 rent is going the entire downstairs with all
13 the extra rooms?
14 -
MEMBER OLIVA: No. Do you want to -
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Please, we can't --
16 MEMBER OLIVA: Show him the plans,
17 please. Show George the plans.
18 MR. LAMOGA: I've heard about how
19 beautiful it is. I don't want you to --
20 MEMBER OLIVA: I want Pat to show you the
21 plans.
22 MR. LAMOGA: I want to know where is the
23 person going to be in the apartment?
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Why don't we do
25 this? Why don't we take a two minute recess?
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U
•
1 You put the plans here and let everybody come
2 up and look at the plans.
3 MR. LAMOGA: I don't think that's -- the
4 (inaudible) is I don't want to be cut short.
5 Okay?
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Nobody is going to
7 be cut short.
8 MR. LAMOGA: Alright, next question.
9 Car, parking, correct? What is the legal
10 access for road to the property? Is there a
11 (inaudible) of the road to a property where
12 it's supposed to be available?
13 UNIDENTIFIED: (INAUDIBLE).
14 MR. LAMOGA: Well, you should because
15 there is.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you referring
17 to the fence on the roadside of the
18 arborvitae?
19 MR. LAMOGA: Yes, that's their property.
20 There's three cars. So if we have a fourth
21 car for all these people that come out to
22 visit them where are all these cars going to
23 be?
29 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to look
25 at this counsel, please?
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• m what I understand from
LAMOGA
F
MR
1 :
ro
.
2 our Code in Southold Town you cannot have your
3 fence, your shrubbery to the edge of that
4 road. Now, how come that's been done?
5 MEMBER OLIVA: They do it all over Town
6 whether it's legal or it's not legal.
7 MR. LAMOGA: Ruth, Ruth. I don't care
8 they do it, it's illegal. Now she's already
9 asking for -- I think an illegal apartment.
10 They've already got illegal fence and we all
11 knew about that, right? We all knew about it
12 in 'the community.
• 13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We certainly can
19 ask her to move that fence and make it a
15 condition.
16 MRS. MOORE: Well, I think you're
17 assuming things that are not actually -- one
18 are not relevant to the accessory apartment.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, the --
20 MRS. MOORE: Two, there is a pool. The
21 property has to be properly fenced for a pool.
22 This is a four-foot fence, which you're
23 permitted to have a four-foot fence on your
24 property line.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but it's
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• k
i
f
t
t b
b
1 ac
s
x
ee
.
e se
supposed to
2 MR. LAMOGA: I have a pool and I have a
3 fence around mine that's not on my property
4 line.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The pertinent
6 question, Ms. Moore is that everything is
7 supposed to be pretty much in order to grant
8 the apartment. In all respects that really
9 should be set back.
10 MR. LAMOGA: Not only the fence has to be
11 set back, but now look at the shrubbery and
12 the beautiful view that you told me was there,
13 that's illegal as well and the curbing.
14 MRS. MOORS: Well, I think that would be
15 up to the Highway Department to enforce not
16 the Zoning Board as far as landscaping on the
17 public right of way.
18 MR. LAMOGA: Well, that is probably true,
19 but you see one illegal --
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One at a time,
21 please, we're taking this down.
22 MR. LAMOGA: Okay.
23 MRS. MOORS: I would -- my understanding
24 is that the Highway Superintendant has the
25 discretion to allow you to put temporary -- I
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ti
--
b
t
d
'
t t
1 ons
o say o
s
ruc
on
t wan
2 encroachments on the public right of way. The
3 Highway Superintendant, if there was a problem
4 certainly we would move the fence back.
5 That's not a problem, or if you want us to
6 move the fence back, I don't think it's major
7 undertaking here. There is landscaping and
8 there is blue stone that takes you from the,
9 as in most of the driveways that everybody
10 has, you go from your property line often
11 times to the asphalt portion of the road. So
12 you're giving yourself access to the asphalt.
• 13 If it becomes a problem the Highway
14 Superintendent certainly has the authority to
15 send a notice and say remove from the public
16 right of way. I think throughout town there
17 is an understanding unless the Highway
18 Superintendent is prepared to increase the
19 road width to 50 feet the full road entrance,
20 he allows what I call a courtesy throughout
21 the town to allow people to improve their
22 front yard so that it is presentable.
23 So I think he's making issues of things
24 that really have no relevance to this
25 accessory apartment. There are standards,
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1 th in the
t f
th
t
d
d
ar
s are se
or
e s
an
excuse me,
2 Code with respect to the accessory apartment
3 and I think I've gone over all of the
9 standards. He's playing prosecutor with
5 respect to driveway, you know, curbing,
6 vegetation and so on. Again, if we're
7 directed by the authorities to change it, we
8 would certainly do that. I don't think
9 anybody is -- I think that they're just trying
10 to make a nicely landscaped property as most
11 of the homes here are trying to have some nice
12 landscaping.
13 If everybody in the neighborhood is
14 prepared to remove their landscaping from the
15 front, because the Highway Superintendant
16 certainly can't enforce against this property
17 owner and not against everybody in Captain
18 Kidd area, then that would be up to him as an
19 elected official to make that decision.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on one second.
21 Counsel, we're discussing a fence that is
22 within the public right of way as in the
23 nature of a Special Permit for an accessory
24 apartment, just to bring you up to speed.
25 MR. LAMOGA: What I'm concerned about is
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• 1 artment
in
to have a
t th
t if
'
h
f
g
p
we
re go
e
ac
a
t
2 dwellers and we move the fence back, will that
3 cut down on the number of cars that are going
4 to be able to park in the driveway? It has
5 to.
6 I also would like to point out that we
7 look to the neighbors on that road that are
8 here, no one has -- anybody have shrubbery or
9 a fence out to the edge of the road. So it's
10 not common in that particular area to be able
11 to do something like that. My concern is I
12 live there. Mrs. Moore does not live there.
• 13 I have to traverse those roads back and forth
14 and sometimes when a car is right there on the
15 curb you can only get one car by. So what has
16 happened, if we put an apartment there and
17 more people there, we're going to have even a
18 greater concern when their family comes out to
19 visit. We'll have more cars there. That's
20 another issue that -- I am also very concerned
21 for a fire in the area and I'm also concerned
22 for snow removal. Where do you put the snow
23 when the shrubbery and the fence is there at
24 the edge of the road when they come through to
25 plow?
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w
I'm just
Y
k
MAN GOEHRINGER
1 ,
ou
no
:
CHAIR
2 going to say this in most of these Special
3 Permits just remember that this is not a
9 permanent thing, alright? If there are
5 questions or issues that have to be addressed
6 during the permitee's period, okay, usually --
7 let me just go back. The decision is usually
8 written to read -- and appropriate parking
9 needs to be addressed. Alright, which means
10 that if you have more than three cars there
11 will be mandated to provide more on site
12 parking as opposed to in the street parking.
. 13 Okay, that's number one. Number two, if there
14 are any other issues that need to be
15 addressed, alright, the Building Department by
16 the nature of an objection by a property
17 owner, would then write a letter to them and
18 telling them this issue has to be addressed.
19 Alright, if the issue is not addressed,
20 then we have another public hearing, okay, for
21 the possibility of removing the Special
22 Permit. See the difference is between
23 something that's static or standard, once a CO
24 is issued. That's not the case in a Special
25 Permit. In a Special Permit we can deal with
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• th
r
h
d
k
1 we can
ave o
e
ay, an
other issues, o
2 hearings based upon this. It just doesn't go
3 right to Code Enforcement and they yank the
4 person into court. We inform them exactly
5 what they need to do to keep their Special
6 Permit in effect.
7 MR. LAMOGA: I understand what you're
8 saying so, therefore, I have only one issue
9 left. How are we going to determine what the
10 permit was for on that construction, the
11 renovation?
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You have to ask .the
13 Building Department.
14 MR. LAMOGA: Will you get back to me as
15 far as --
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't ask the
17 Building Department that question. I mean if
18 the Building Inspector was here and he wanted
19 to volunteer that information, he --
20 MRS. MOORE: I'd be happy -- it's public
21 record. I can give him a -- give me your
22 address, I'll send you a copy of the building
23 permit issued, which again it should be -- it
24 should mirror the CO that was issued.
25 MR. LAMOGA: Right. Isn't that
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th
it
i
i
ki
h
i
d
i
1 ng w
er
s
on ma
e
cant
n your
ec
signif
2 was given -- granted for an accessory
3 apartment or not?
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In some cases it
5 has some technical merit, but to be perfectly
6 honest with you, I particularly am very happy
7 that the person has volunteered to come in and
8 apply for a Special Permit based upon the
9 information that we were addressing and the
10 amount of illegal apartments that are in this
11 town. Where they do not have the force of law
12 as I was mentioning to Paul in the back of the
. 13 room.
14 So to some degree sometimes people make a
15 mistake, I'm not saying that that's the case
16 here, okay, but I don't find this to be
17 totally blatant.
18 MR. LAMOGA: Okay, can I ask another
19 question then? I hate to say that, but was
20 not an apartment denied on the corner of
21 Central and Inlet Drive (inaudible) and that
22 person likewise built an extension on the
23 house to already plan another apartment?
29 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no knowledge
25 of that.
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f
th
Ok
it i
OGA
1 s on
e corner o
ay,
MR. LAM
:
2 Central and Inlet. You'll have to look that
3 one up historically, cause that was denied a
4 few years ago.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: It came before the Zoning
6 Board?
7 MR. LAMOGA: From what I gather it was
8 denied.
9 BOARD ASST.: If you want to check the
10 office, we'll check it tomorrow.
11 MEMBER SIMON: If you have the name it
12 would help.
13 MR. LAMOGA: I'll get you the name. Let
14 me just see, I have to make sure I covered all
15 my questions.
16 Oh, how do we know right now there's only
17 a kitchen upstairs?
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: We inspected it.
19 MR. LAMOGA: You did inspect it. When
20 was it inspected? By the three of -- three
21 people?
22 MEMBER SIMON: Last Saturday.
23 MR. LAMOGA: Just recently. How are we
24 to know it's going to remain that way, you're
25 going to continue to inspect it, every year?
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•
1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're not going to
2 continue. We're not Code Enforcement. The
3 Building Department --
9 MR. LAMOGA: So they will go in and
5 inspect the apartment?
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's incumbent upon
8 anybody who thinks that something is being
9 done -- this has nothing to do with this
10 application in general, when Special Permits
11 are granted, Mr. Lamoga, to inform the proper
12 people in this Town. That would be Code
13 Enforcement and/or the Building Department.
14 Okay, that something is running awry and
15 therefore they would investigate it. As I
16 said this is not a hard fast permit, this
17 permit is flexible. It will be modified or it
18 could be changed or it could be nullified.
19 MR. LAMOGA: When will you make that
20 decision?
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: By another public
22 hearing based upon those allegations.
23 MR. LAMOGA: Just as a side comment, we
24 in the community have had several issues with
25 the builder. If I assume it's the builder I
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• '
1 think you
re saying it is and we have
2 complained to the Code Enforcer and several
3 times have gotten no results. There are many,
4 many infractions in our neighborhood. The
5 same builder, the same builder. So there's a
6 multiplicity of a track record here. I think
7 this builder is the one these people should be
8 discussing it with. You're saying it's the
9 builder's responsibility and the builder's
10 fault. Just my own separate comment. Thank
11 you.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
• 13 Anybody else? Ma'am. Be right with you,
14 sir.
15 MS. APOSTELIDES: Hi, my name is Linda
16 Apostelides (sic) and my home is --
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: How do you do?
18 MS. APOSTELIDES: -- adjacent to Mrs.
19 Lambiris. It's the very tiny one next to her
20 beautiful home. I'm not sure if when you went
21 to see her you even noticed mine.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: I noticed.
23 MS. APOSTELIDES: At the risk of sounding
29 redundant and I see that the clock is rapidly
25 pacing, I just am not sure that I understand.
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h
i
i
did
hi
i
i
1 en Mrs. Lamb
r
t
s renovat
on
n
W
s
2 2005-'06 was this apartment in the footprint
3 of the house? Did you -- was it there in the
4 plans?
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I have no idea.
6 MS. APOSTELIDES: Does it have to go
7 before you as a Board?
8 MEMBER OLIVA: No.
9 MS. APOSTELIDES: Who does -- does it
10 have to go before anyone for a --
11 MEMBER OLIVA: The Building Department.
12 MS. APOSTELIDES: The Building Department
13 looks at these plans and yeas or nays them; is
14 that correct?
15 MEMBER SIMON: Yes. They also do
16 inspections if they -- after they give the
17 permits.
18 MS. APOSTELIDES: So this went through.
19 This was approved by someone. I don't
20 understand --
21 MEMBER OLIVA: The plans were approved --
22 MS. APOSTELIDES: That's what I'm
23 confused with.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: -- for an apartment.
25 MS. APOSTELIDES: Why are we here even
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1 discussing a --
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A Special Permit
3 will be granted or not granted by this Board
4 for the specific use that is before us today.
5 MS. APOSTELIDES: But what's --
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A owner-occupied
7 Special Permit to occupy a portion of the
8 house and to provide a portion of the house as
9 an accessory apartment.
10 MS. APOSTELIDES: That I understand, but
11 what I'm not clear on was this whole intent
12 all along.
. 13 MEMBER OLIVA: We don't know.
14 MS. APOSTELIDES: We'll never know that.
15 MEMBER SIMON: We have no way of knowing.
16 The procedure is nothing comes before us
17 except after there is a Notice of Disapproval
18 from the Building Department or if there's a
19 complication for a Special Permit.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which we have by
21 original jurisdiction.
22 MEMBER SIMON: Which we have. The
23 renovation was presumably done with permits
24 issued by the Building Department and they did
25 their inspections or three or four they do
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1 f
th
i
th
C
f O
hi
h th
i
b
ore
ey g
ve
e
o
, w
c
ere
s a
e
2 copy we haven't seen yet. Now, the reason
3 they're asking for a Special Permit is because
4 there is interest in renting this property,
5 this pre-existing already as-built for money
6 and they have to come directly to us. That's
7 why they're here now and I hope that explains
8 why it has not been before us before. The
9 Building Department gave the permits and gave
10 the C of O.
11 BOARD ASST.: Okay, but there is also
12 something else though. These plans are dated
13 June of 2008. They are probably the as-built
14 plans, but we don't know for sure. These
15 plans will have to be approved by the Building
16 Department because the Building Department has
17 not seen them yet. The Zoning Board has to
18 finish up with the process first before the
19 Building Department will review these. So
20 they'll have a second chance at all the
21 inspections and the reviews before --
22 MS. APOSTELIDES: So this is not -- so we
23 still have another step before this can
24 happen?
25 BOARD ASST.: They need another CO after
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i
h
i
h
h
Z
i
B
d
fi
1 n
w
t
e
on
ng
oar
, yes.
they
s
t
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We send them over
3 to the Building Department after this.
4 MS. APOSTELIDES: With my close proximity
5 to this house though, I have been under the
6 impression for many years now that this is a
7 living space that has already been rented.
8 There are people that are the tenants there
9 already. So again, I'm confused as to what
10 this is all about.
11 MEMBER SIMON: We don't know.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: We don't know.
13 MS. APOSTELIDES: You don't know. I --
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We didn't say that
15 we wouldn't care, we --
16 MS. APOSTELIDES: I get the feeling
17 though that you don't know and that's where it
18 ends.
19 MEMBER SIMON: We're not -- we don't have
20 the authority to investigate things that we
21 don't --
22 MS. APOSTELIDES: Who does then?
23 MEMBER SIMON: The Building Department,
24 Code Enforcement.
25 MS. APOSTELIDES: So this is really --
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• 1 k
hi
i
--
t
s
s
o
ay.
2 MEMBER OLIVA: I know.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not that we
4 don't care, we're --
5 MS. APOSTELIDES: How do we fix this? It
6 seems like it's broken and it needs to be
7 fixed. How do we fix it?
8 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, we are legally
9 prevented from caring in a material way.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well, no. We're
11 not an enforcement Board.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Our Town Attorney would
13 like to talk.
14 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I did walk in on
15 this half-way, but from what I gather, there
16 may or may not be an apartment already there.
17 Okay, this Board is deciding today or some
18 other adjourn day whether an apartment should
19 legally be there from now going forward.
20 Okay, this Board and only this Board can give
21 an approval or a denial whether that apartment
22 should be allowed to exist. So this apartment
23 -- if this Board says no, for whatever reason
29 it decides, no apartment here. Okay, then we
25 all know it's not supposed to be there and
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1 whatever action needs to be taken should be
2 taken.
3 MS. APOSTELIDES: So that means that the
4 tenant has to leave then; is that correct?
5 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: If this Board says
6 no, no apartment, then there should not be
7 tenants there, correct. If this Board says,
8 yes, this is an appropriate place for an
9 apartment if you do this, this, and this then
10 they'll have to meet all those conditions in
11 order to keep having an apartment. This is to
12 decide, I wouldn't say once and for all, but I
• 13 guess for this year whether an apartment is
14 appropriate in this location.
15 MS. APOSTELIDES: Okay, I just have one
16 other question. This is not my primary
17 residence. I live in another place and when
18 my neighbors do renovation -- This was a
19 magnificent home. I was completely pleased
20 and surprised to see it, when I did see it;
21 however, I was shocked when saw it because
22 there was no notification that this was being
23 done. Is that not a law here in this
24 community that the neighbors should be
25 notified --
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'
1 MEMBER WEISMAN: I don
t think it is, no.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't think it is
3 for a building permit.
4 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Not for a building
5 permit, no.
6 MS. APOSTELIDES: To put a pool in, to do
7 extensive work?
8 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You can do -- as
9 long as you're within Code, you're within the
10 proper setbacks and the pool is in the proper
11 yard, as long as you don't need to come before
12 this Board for a variance, then the Building
13 Department -- or nobody is required to notify
14 your neighbors. The only time the neighbors
15 are notified is if somebody wants to get
16 closer than the law allows. Meaning closer to
17 your property or do something that's not
18 permitted by our Code. That's when this Board
19 comes into play to either give relief or deny
20 relief for things that people want in excess
21 of the Code.
22 So you could go to the Building
23 Department tomorrow and do an addition on your
29 home if you wanted to as long as you follow
25 the rules and didn't want something more than
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1 ree
You
has to a
w
d
nobod
l
ll
th
g
.
,
y
e ru
es a
o
e
2 don't have to tell your neighbors if you don't
3 want to. You can get a permit to do that.
4 If you want to do more than the rules
5 allow, then you come to this Board for relief
6 and you have to notify your neighbors.
7 BOARD ASST.: The only thing you have to
8 do is post a sign, a building permit sign in
9 your window and that's the notice that there's
10 construction going on and then you can
11 investigate it at that point.
12 MS. APOSTELIDES: Alright, thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Gentleman in the
14 green shirt.
15 MR. NICKETIS: My name is Michael
16 Nicketis and I'm the owner of the vacant lot
17 to the left of this property as you're looking
18 at this property.
19 I really came to the meeting -- I live in
20 Connecticut and this property has been in our
21 family for probably over 30 years. I came to
22 the meeting with an open mind and with the
23 view that I would listen to what was said and
24 hopefully walk away. I actually called Ms.
25 Moore about a week and a half ago trying to
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i 1 d to en
a
e m
own
d
id
h
th
I
d
g
g
y
ec
e w
e
er
nee
e
2 attorney. It was -- I thought I asked a
3 fairly full set of questions at the time and
4 decided that I could come myself as a laymen.
5 It was not made clear to me at the time
6 that the intention here was to rent to a non-
? family member. Obviously, it is within the --
8 it seems to be within the bounds of the
9 Special Permit that is allowed. So I
10 understand that very clearly. It was
11 certainly not, again, I guess appropriately,
12 not revealed to me that the apartment is
• 13 rented at the present moment. I would --
'
14 t know that.
MEMBER OLIVA: We don
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: We don't know that.
16 MEMBER OLIVA: We don't know that.
17 MR. NICKETIS: Okay. I -- my reason for
18 standing here is in the context of, I guess, a
19 number of the members of the Board, Mr.
20 Corcoran last, mentioned as conditionalities
21 regarding Special Permit and both in the plan
22 that was sent to me by the attorney and also
23 in a survey which I received just yesterday,
24 having engaged a surveyor just after I spoke
25 to Ms. Moore, I would just like to say that
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1 there is encroachment on my property. In one
2 sense it's just encroachment of one of the
3 fences, it's about a foot and a half on my
4 property, and then along that same fence line
5 there is more significant encroachment in the
6 form of the way some of the property has been
7 used.
8 I had the survey done. I was thinking I
9 needed the survey done because I'd seen this
10 fence line go up around the property and was a
11 little concerned about the boundary, but also
12 noticed that there was clear encroachment on
13 the property relative to a fence put up to
14 protect a garden and, in the process of all of
15 that and as indicated in my own survey and in
16 discussions with the constructor of the fence,
17 it was very clear that I could not run my own
18 fence line to the edge of the property and, of
19 course, if I had a six-foot fence I needed to
20 have a four-foot fence in that setback.
21 It's very clear from the drawings
22 provided and I think the pictures that you've
23 seen that there is an existing condition
24 which, all things being equal, would seem to
25 be a violation of the existing Code. So I
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1 would just like to propose that the permit is
2 conditioned on the correction of some of these
3 outstanding issues.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we have a
5 copy of your survey and would you circle the
6 areas where the encroachment is?
7 MR. NICKETIS: Of course. I would also
8 like to get, Ms. Moore, a copy of the plans.
9 Well, if you could make a copy of the plans
10 and have them photocopied, I'd be happy to pay
11 for that.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Actually, can't he come
• 13 into the office and --
14 MEMBER SIMON: You can get it from us.
15 MR. NICKETIS: Okay.
16 BOARD ASST.: We don't duplicate, we do
17 (inaudible) can get it, we'll pay for it, but
18 --
19 MR. NICKETIS: I'd also -- I mean as a
20 final point and I understand very clearly the
21 comments made by the Board with respect to the
22 fact that if this had been requested as the
23 construction was taking place, it very likely
24 would have been approved. That's very clear
25 to me and under those circumstances there's
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•
1 almost no point in objecting except for the
2 fact that we are here and we have a number of
3 outstanding issues, which I think should be
4 cleared up in light of the conduct here. So -
5 -
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: One of those is the
7 issue that you just discussed, the
8 encroachment.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: Encroachment on your
10 property.
11 MRS. MOORS: I have a survey that doesn't
12 show encroachment. So that's why, if you --
• 13 MR. NICKETIS: Actually your survey does
14 show encroachment.
15 MRS. MOORS: Are you talking about at the
16 road end?
17 MR. NICKETIS: I'm talking about the --
18 what you sent to me. It's what you sent to
19 me.
20 MRS. MOORS: (Inaudible).
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, take a five -
22 - take a ten minute -- we need to go on to the
23 next hearing, but you're on the next hearing.
24 Just a second, Paul, I'll be right with
25 you. Hold on, Paul.
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1 so we're
xt one
Oka
'll
t
th
W
.
y,
o
e ne
e
go
2 going to take a ten-minute recess on this one.
3 Ten-minute recess, I'll make a motion.
4 MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Not for us.
6 MEMBER SIMON: Not for us, for them.
7 BOARD ASST.: For how long?
8 MEMBER SIMON: Ten minutes.
10 HEARING #6129 - Lia Polites and
11 Kevin Ferro
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is an
13 adjourned hearing so we will open this up. It
14 is appeal #6129.
15 Are we going to hear from you, Mr.
16 Yakaboski or are we going to hear from Mr.
17 Gross?
18 Come forward to the mike.
19 MR. YAKABOSKI: Now, I just want to tell
20 you that I did not get back the card from
21 (inaudible).
22 BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
23 MR. YAKABOSKI: I'll be brief. You have
24 in your file a letter from me in June where I
25 advised the Board that we were putting in an
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1 lt
t
l
t
th
h
d
i
i
ll
a
erna
e p
an
o
e one we
a
or
g
na
y
2 proposed and the alternate plan was one
3 wherein we eliminate the second story, we move
4 the structure about 7-1/2, 8 feet off the
5 boundary to get a conforming 20-foot side yard
6 and we reduce our request for additional
7 square footage from 1500 and change to 780.
8 Since that time, I've been in discussion with
9 Mr. Gross, as you know who represents Mr. and
10 Mrs. Higgins and they have submitted a letter,
11 which you should have in your file, through
12 Mr. Gross indicating that the objections that
13 they had expressed previously at the prior
14 hearing were being withdrawn.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
16 MR. YAKABOWSKI: And more than that I say
17 not.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So this is
19 absolutely wonderful and you'll move forward
20 and Mr. Gross what would you like to say for
21 the record?
22 MR. GROSS: Good afternoon Board members
23 and Town Attorney. I would just clarify one
29 thing on behalf of the Higgins' the objection
25 is withdrawn to the extent that the
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li
i
f
h
B
d i
li
it
d
h
b
1 on
e
ore t
e
oar
s
m
e
to t
e
app
cat
2 revised plans as submitted. In as much as,
3 you know, anything changes in that regard, we
4 would reserve our right to renew an objection,
5 but if -- just so long as what the Board is
6 ruling on is the revised plans that objection
7 is withdrawn primarily on the basis that the
8 new plans resemble an in-kind renovation, more
9 or less, and on that basis we would have no
10 objection. On behalf of the Higgins' we would
11 like to thank the Board for the opportunity to
12 comment .
• 13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Question, we've
14 gone through this with foundations before and
15 I'm just going to ask this question for
16 counsel that I've known for 30-40 years here,
17 but we're not anticipating any steeper
18 rooflines that exist --
19 MR. YAKABOWSKI: No, you have in your
20 file --
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand, but I
22 may not be able to be able to determine what's
23 actually there and what's different, but it's
24 pretty much going to stay the way it is.
25 MR. YAKABOWSKI: You have in your file,
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1 Mr. Chairman, the revised proposed floor areas
2 and revised proposed rooflines, etc., and also
3 the elevation which would face toward the
4 Higgins' and it practically mirrors, although
5 we now know the garage, of course, is going to
6 be moved.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Of course.
8 MR. YAKABOWSKI: But it practically
9 mirrors what's there now.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. You're
11 satisfied with that?
12 MR. GROSS: Yes.
• 13 MEMBER SIMON: If I could just paraphrase
14 what is my understanding with the attorney,
15 because we are following the precedent that
16 says this is a nonconforming structure and
17 nonconforming use, there is no longer -- and
18 the setbacks are changed, there is no longer a
19 Walz problem and there's no other problem that
20 we need to give a variance for provided we
21 simply clarify our understanding of what the
22 Notice of Disapproval should have said. Does
23 that accord with your understanding?
24 MR. YAKABOWSKI: Well, no. I think it
25 still requires a Walz variance because it's a
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•
1 change to the nonconforming structure.
2 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
3 MR. GROSS: An increase and enlargement.
4 So if there (inaudible) they wouldn't be here.
5 So they're still here, they still need it.
6 MR. YAKABOWSKI: I know that this Board's
7 position has been -- and I know I've argued
8 against it, but I understand your position --
9 and that is that adding one additional square
10 foot in your minds increases the degree of
11 nonconformity.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
13 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
14 MR. YAKABOWSKI: You know, that is
15 something that I have objected to, but I'm not
16 looking to go to war on that issue.
17 MEMBER SIMON: And we're stuck with that,
18 if you will, by (inaudible) only because it is
19 a -- any change at all to a nonconforming
20 structure, period.
21 MR. YAKABOWSKI: And that's how you're
22 interpreting it. Your Code, of course, in my
23 mind, reads differently, but that's -- I'm not
24 here to fight that fight today.
25 MEMBER SIMON: I personally suggest you
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1 go back and read the --
2 MR. YAKABOWSKI: Don't get me started.
3 MEMBER SIMON: Reread the Walz decision,
4 which I find --
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Wait a minute, things
6 are going good.
7 MR. YAKABOWSKI: I'd like to leave when I
8 can.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you very much.
10 MR. YAKABOWSKI: If there are any
11 questions, I'll be happy -- otherwise, I'll
12 await your decision.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Very good.
14 MR. YAKABOWSKI: Thank you for your
15 extended courtesies.
16 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It was a very good
17 exercise in compromise among the parties, I
18 thought.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: It was a nice
20 collaboration, I thought.
21 MR. YAKABOWSKI: I'd like to thank Mr.
22 Gross for his cooperation throughout as well.
23 MR. GROSS: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, hearing no
25 further comment, I'll make a motion closing
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• 1 the hearing, reserving decision to later.
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
3 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
5 HEARING #6152 - William and
6 Joanne Turnbull
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: State your name for
8 the record.
9 MR. HERRMAN: For the second time, thank
10 you. Rob Herrman of En Consultants, 1319
11 Mercy Road, Southampton, New York and Noah
12 Gonzalez, architects.
. 13 MR. GONZALEZ: GHG Architects, 91
14 Prospect Street, Huntington, New York.
15 MR. HERRMAN: I'm mostly going to let
16 Noah talk to you, hopefully, very briefly.
17 When we were here last month we set out to try
18 to improve upon a plan that was originally
19 submitted to you pursuant to your requests.
20 Most notably, that we would eliminate two of
21 the variances we had originally requested. One
22 was for the side yard setback and you should
23 now have in front of you revised plans from
24 Noah, and I don't know if you want to bring
25 that up. We have now -- Noah has redesigned
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1 d th
h
th
h
t
h
ddi
i
ons an
e
ouse,
e new
ouse
o
t
e a
t
2 meet the side yard setback, so that variance
3 has been eliminated.
4 The other was the issue of coverage where
5 we had talked about the constraints of trying
6 to restrict coverage to less than 20 percent
7 of the buildable land as defined by Code.
8 These changes now accomplish that.
9 I do have one replacement sheet that I
10 wanted to hand up. I didn't do it previously
11 cause I didn't want to confuse things. If you
12 look at drawing 1 of 4 in the lower right hand
• 13 corner there's a site data chart that Noah has
14 prepared and at the very bottom of that it
15 indicates proposed lot coverage and it shows
16 the 2,685 total square feet over 13,647 square
17 feet, which is 19.67 percent. That is correct
18 and that 13,647 is the correct number. The
19 same number calculated by John Ehlers on the
20 originally submitted survey for the lot area
21 exclusive of the land area seaward of the
22 coastal erosion hazard line. Up at the top of
23 the site data chart there's a typo, it says
29 Property 31972 and where it says landward of
25 CEHL it says 13 and then 972. You can see how
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'
1 ve
ad t
at page
the typo occurred. We
2 corrected to read 13,647 --
3 BOARD ASST.: I marked it in the original
9 file.
5 MR. HERRMAN: You've already made the
6 correction. Alright, well thank you, Linda.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: So we're at 19.67?
8 MR. HERRMAN: You are at 19.67.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Primarily by the removal
10 of the deck.
11 MR. GONZALEZ: A couple of things.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: A couple of things.
• 13 MR. GONZALEZ: Yeah, a couple of things
14 were the removal of the deck and what we did
15 was we substituted that with masonry pavers at
16 grade and we also removed a good portion of
17 the addition that was initially proposed to
18 the east and seaward of the property. We've
19 pulled everything in landward of the coastal
20 erosion line as well as taking it in from the
21 east to minimize the amount of the proposed
22 addition, which --
23 MEMBER SIMON: You also reduced the pool
24 size did you not?
25 MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, we did as well.
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th
h
th
h
f
S
t'
1 ow
e c
ange o
MR. HERRMAN:
o
a
s
2 coverage was obtained. So the only thing I
3 didn't do, I discussed this briefly with
9 Linda, we did not have a revised site plan
5 prepared by John Ehlers because we're really
6 offering this to the Board for its
7 consideration. If the Board feels that this
8 does satisfy what you were looking for last
9 month, we understand that we would have to
10 submit a revised site plan from John that
11 matched up with this new site plan.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, in fact it's
13 (inaudible) architect (inaudible). We won't
14 need it.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: As long as you're
16 on the dollars that's the main thing.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: On the money.
18 The variances now are the pool and the
19 side yard?
20 MR. HERRMAN: Correct.
21 MR. GONZALEZ: That's correct.
22 MR. HERRMAN: Now, the pool from the road
23 I think we're what nine-tenths of a foot short
24 from the street.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh there was a setback
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h
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e s
e
.
2 MR. HERRMAN: The shed, too.
3 MR. GONZALEZ: The pool right now is
4 (inaudible) from the property line.
5 MR. HERRMAN: From the road.
6 MR. GONZALEZ: I guess what I was
7 concerned about was if we were to conform to
8 the point of setback that means we'd be closer
9 to the --
10 MR. HERRMAN: Right, we had this
11 conversation and Noah said I've reduced the
12 pool really as much as we could reasonably
. 13 reduce it. If it's going to go forward should
14 I push it a foot closer to the bluff? I said,
15 no. I think either way the Board would rather
16 see that 11 inches closer to the road,
17 particularly because, as we discussed last
18 month, the road here is as much of a non-issue
19 as it could ever be in this town. I mean,
20 there's no recreation occurring on this road.
21 There's nobody hanging out in this road.
22 There's nobody looking in this property from
23 the road and if they are they're not going to
24 last very long.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, they're not
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. 1 l
i
t
b
th
ong.
go
ng
o
e
ere
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's the (inaudible)
3 an 11-inch width. (Inaudible) the shed, talk
4 about the shed.
5 MR. GONZALEZ: Well, what we did do with
6 the shed, we rotated the shed actually so that
7 it's now perpendicular. The face of the shed
8 is perpendicular to the pool, which in doing
9 so actually gives you more distance between
10 the property line and the shed. (Inaudible).
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: The setback is from the
12 -- in the front yard is 22.
. 13 MR. GONZALEZ: The front yard is 22 feet
14 1 inch and then from the west property line we
15 have 30 feet 2 inches.
16 MR. HERRMAN: So those two structures
17 continued to require yard relief and also
18 setback relief from the road.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Location and setback.
20 MR. HERRMAN: Correct, location and
21 setback. Otherwise, we're really just left
22 with the overall crest of bluff situation that
23 we can't avoid. We've improved upon it, but
29 obviously we can't make that completely
25 disappear.
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN: T
e s
e
s
n t
e
ront
2 yard. The pool is in the side yard. Okay, so
3 it's just a --
4 MR. HERRMAN: Yeah, it's just the pool
5 that requires the yard --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right, but the shed's
7 okay.
8 MR. HERRMAN: The shed's okay, it is just
9 not 40 feet from the road.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: It doesn't need to be.
11 MR. HERRMAN: Alright, well better yet.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: How high is it?
• 13 MR. HERRMAN: We have an elevation I
14 think on the other site --
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: You may not need a
16 variance for that depending on the height.
17 MR. HERRMAN: It's on -- do you still
18 have the original plans? I know at one point
19 Linda --
20 BOARD ASST.: Yeah, I do.
21 MR. HERRMAN: -- asked that we include
22 the elevation of the shed.
23 MR. GONZALEZ: I had done a cross-section
24 of the --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I got it.
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w wh
she
h I did
't k
Whi
N
1 y
n
no
c
MR. HERRMA
:
2 was asking, but now I do.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is a shed, not
4 a cabanna, right?
5 MR. HERRMAN: That's correct.
6 MR. GONZALEZ: That's correct.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Here, the original --
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Did we discuss the
9 utility that was in that shed? Electricity
10 only? No electricity?
11 MR. HERRMAN: We did not discuss
12 electricity. Did you have electric in that
. 13 shed?
14 MR. TURNBULL: (inaudible).
15 MR. HERRMAN: By the look on his face,
16 no.
17 BOARD ASST.: No electric?
18 MR. TURNBULL: The shed is going to --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Turnbull, we're not
20 hearing you. (Inaudible) a mike.
21 MR. TURNBULL: Bill Turnbull. The shed
22 is basically for handling maintenance
23 equipment like a lawn mower or weed whacker or
24 something and it's the only place I have to
25 put it above grade because my driveway is down
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• d
b
l
i
1 own
e
ow.
below and my garage
s
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
3 MR. TURNBULL: So my there's almost no
4 way -- especially my bones are getting a
5 little older now -- to get a lawn mower up and
6 down. So -- but I would like to have a light
7 bulb in there, you know.
8 MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's why we're
10 asking the question. Cause if we don't put it
11 in, you don't get one.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's a yes for
• 13 electric.
14 MR. TURNBULL: I mean if it's going to
15 delay the process I can leave the light bulb
16 out. I'll can use a flashlight.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No we can throw
18 that in.
19 MR. TURNBULL: Oh, okay.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm still looking for
21 the shed so we can --
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's my
23 understanding that the shed is one-story not
24 to exceed --
25 MR. HERRMAN: Yes and I'm struggling to
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fil
h
1 e an
ave
n your
find it, but do you
2 elevation drawing (inaudible).
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Here we go. I got it.
4 So for the record you can call it in.
5 MR. GONZALEZ: 11 feet 9 inches.
6 MR. HERRMAN: Actually I was going to say
7 12, not to exceed 12.
8 MEMBER SIMON: It's less than 100 square
9 feet.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, it's less than 100
11 so you don't need a variance for that.
12 BOARD ASST.: How many square feet?
. 13 MEMBER SIMON: 96.
14 BOARD ASST.: 96, okay.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Under 100 square feet
16 and it's set back 11 -- I mean the height is
17 11.9.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) the
19 utility of electricity. It's still in the
20 front yard.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, but it's okay
22 because it's on the water.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, that's right.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: As long as it meets the
25 principle setback.
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i
dibl
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1 nau
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MEMBER
IM
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, (
2 MR. HERRMAN: That's alright I was
3 thinking the same thing you were so, if we
4 don't need it better yet.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I would throw it in
6 anyway.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: What? The variance for
8 the shed?
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah. I would
10 address it anyway.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: We can address it.
12 BOARD ASST.: What's the principle
• 13 setback, 40 or 50?
19 MEMBER SIMON: 90.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Good it's 22.1.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: 22.1 in the front yard.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Better safe than
18 sorry.
19 I have to again thank you gentleman and
20 the Turnbull family for a good job doing this.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: You did a good job.
22 MR. TURNBULL: Thank you.
23 MR. HERRMAN: Thank you.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Great job.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Seeing no hands --
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN: You have to ask.
2 MEMBER SIMON: This one should be closing
3 today.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: #6152, is anyone
5 here for that?
6 Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
7 closing the hearing, reserve decision to
8 later.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
10 MR. HERRMAN: One more thing on the site
11 plan, since we're now decided that that's
12 going to be the site plan, there was a
13 floating dimension from a prior structure,
14 which has been removed. So let's just use
15 this site plan. It sounds like a trick, but
16 it's --
17 BOARD ASST.: Floating dimension? You
18 can give it out to everybody, they're going to
19 get it anyway.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, just so
21 you're aware of it that is going to be the one
22 that's marked final.
23 MR. HERRMAN: Yes.
24 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
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a
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HEARING #6195 Contd. - Eugen
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'd like to reopen
3 #6195. Alright, what have we resolved?
4 MRS. MOORE: Well, we heard the comments
5 from the neighbors and they made some good
6 points with respect to the fence that goes out
7 to the blacktop. My client has no problem
8 with having the fence pushed back. Again, if
9 this was all done at the directive of not her,
10 but when the construction was going on, I
11 guess the contractor who directed everything
12 said, yes, you know, the fence guy took it out
13 to wherever to the road and they went beyond
14 the property line. So the neighbors make a
15 good point with respect to the safety aspects
16 of snow removal and so on and we do want to be
17 reasonable. So we'll take care of having the
18 fence stay within the front yard setback. I
19 think there is concrete curbing all over that
20 area, so that has nothing to do with us, it's
21 just the fence that goes out.
22 The landscaping that's in between the
23 circular driveway makes sense to keep it there
24 cause it does keep a better circulation. The
25 landscaping creates the circular driveway so
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1 that makes sense the way it is.
2 The neighbor that is --
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Before you state
4 that, okay --
5 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Remember that I am
7 suggesting to the Board that if this permit is
8 so granted, okay, that if the street parking
9 becomes a problem you need to put the majority
10 of the street parking on site. So eventually,
11 you know, a bigger parking area is going --
12 may have to be --
13 MRS. MOORE: Well, if you remove -- if
14 you push the fence back it actually adds an
15 extra parking space along Captain Kidd Drive
16 and you are permitted, it's a public road,
17 you're allow if you have guests, you can park
18 on the --
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand. I'm
20 talking about permanent people.
21 MRS. MOORE: Well, again, she's living
22 there. The reason for needing this is the
23 kids aren't around. So really -- she doesn't
24 anticipate it, but yes, you can control it
25 that way.
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I did
't
INGER
I'
1 n
:
m sorry,
CHAIRMAN GOEHR
2 mean to stop you, I just wanted to get that
3 in.
4 MRS. MOORE: No, that's fine. She heard
5 you, parking okay. The neighbor, the
6 gentleman that spoke regarding his property,
7 I'm sorry, I forgot your name.
8 MR. NICKETIS: Nicketis.
9 MRS. MOORE: Nicketis, Mr. Nicketis.
10 There is -- his property is a vacant lot and
11 the encroachment we talked about, in the back
12 there is a small encroachment. The fence when
• 13 it was installed there was supposed to be
14 installed on the property line and the fence
15 guys have it on the road at the road end at
16 1.2 feet off of the -- the width of the fence
17 is the encroachment. I don't know. I leave
18 it to them to figure out to move it or not
19 move it. I have no comment on that.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It should conform.
21 MRS. MOORE: Well, but you're -- I
22 understand, but this is a fence that goes on
23 the property line and on a vacant piece of
24 property next door I guess if the fence guys
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• 1 i
th
ld
th
f
i
ng
n
move
ence so
are com
ey cou
e
2 that it's again --
3 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yeah, I mean
4 whether it's vacant or not, is not -- it's his
5 property. So --
6 MRS. MOORS: I understand, but it's not
7 your job to clear up the personal
8 encroachments.
9 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I understand.
10 True, but if we're going to be blessing -- if
11 this Board's going to be blessing --
12 MRS. MOORS: To make everybody happy, we
• 13 will. Alright.
14 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- a use in a
15 particular property, you know, let's see what
16 can be done.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is in the
18 Special Exception.
19 MRS. MOORS: Alright, there is a garden
20 in the back that is just a temporary seasonal
21 garden that because the property was all
22 overgrown they cleared a small area, put some
23 wire mesh around it and planted tomatoes.
24 They spoke to them -- she spoke to him
25 directly and said listen if you have a problem
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i
h i
i
'
h
'
d
1 w
t
s yours, w
en you
re rea
y to
t
t,
2 build I'm not taking -- I'm not going to keep
3 it, it's just right now an open space that has
4 a garden in it, a vegetable garden. If that's
5 a problem for him, we'll take it out. We'll
6 replant the plants. I mean, if you wait a
7 month they'll be gone. So it's up to you.
8 Again, that's a temporary situation, it's
9 not permanent. It's not an encroachment that
10 (inaudible) with.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're only
12 concerned about permanent encroachments.
• 13 MRS. MOORS: The only permanent
14 encroachment is the one that is the fence
15 extending out to the right of way.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
17 MRS. MOORS: And the 1-foot encroachment
18 on the fence, with the fence and that they can
19 address. Not a problem.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we thank you.
21 Any last statement from anyone regarding this?
22 If not, we're going to close the hearing.
23 Yes, Mr. Nicketis.
24 MR. NICKETIS: I guess there are two
25 possible -- well, there's a clear outcome and
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• i
1 t
that is at some point perhaps a Special Perm
2 will be granted, but I think there are two
3 approaches to that and it seems to me that
4 there's been a course of conduct here. There
5 were plans submitted to the Town, construction
6 was undertaken to add space to the property.
7 I don't think it's acceptable -- let me not
8 say that. I don't think it reasonable to lay
9 the blame for conditions on the property
10 solely on the contractor.
11 I'm not intimately familiar with the
12 nature of contracting in Southold, but I am
• 13 aware of who the contractor is and I'm aware
14 of some of the situations that they've been
15 involved in. Very clearly, utilities had to
16 be installed into this part of the building.
17 Whether or not that was a part of the original
18 plans is again not something perhaps we can
19 determine here, but it does represent a course
20 of conduct.
21 The -- again the Board can deal with this
22 as it will, but I did make, as I said earlier,
23 I did make a phone call to the attorney, I did
29 ask a number of questions. As I said the
25 answers I received were very lawyerly, but it
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1 was interesting the fact regarding that this
2 was going to be a third-party rental was not
3 addressed. I clearly was asking questions
4 about the intent here. That was not something
5 that was proffered perhaps appropriately.
6 There is clearly -- there are clearly some
7 issues that remain outstanding with respect to
8 the property. The fence line extending over
9 is one of those issues. I disagree, frankly,
10 with the idea of preserving the -- I think the
11 fence line is the fence line and it should
12 just simply be cleared so that to the extent
13 that additional parking is needed that parking
14 can take place in front of this property and
15 not other properties. Then, frankly, there
16 are the issues regarding encroachment.
17 So I would suggest that rather than ask
18 for these things to be done after the issuance
19 of a Special Permit, I would just ask the
20 Board to consider that all of these issues
21 should be cleared before the Special Permit is
22 issued and you should perhaps reschedule this
23 hearing and allow the neighbors to come back
24 to confirm that these matters are -- these
25 matters have been dealt with appropriately,
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1 but that's obviously at the Board's
2 discretion.
3 MRS. MOORE: I would personally like to
4 say that I don't have to take neighbors' phone
5 calls, I do it as a practice that when a
6 neighbor calls I specifically speak to them.
7 I give them as much time as they ask. I
8 answer every and all questions that I'm asked.
9 I did not give lawyerly answers, I assume that
10 if somebody is asking me about an accessory
11 apartment that they understand what an
12 accessory apartment is. An accessory
13 apartment is one which is rent to the public
14 otherwise it's -- I guess my definition in my
15 head is it's not an accessory apartment.
16 So if it was my mistake in not explaining
17 to this gentleman that this accessory
18 apartment is for rental, it was then my fault.
19 I will ask much more -- I will assume less
20 knowledge of the people that are calling me.
21 So I did not avoid or try to obviate -- try to
22 avoid disclosing information. I answered what
23 I was asked and it certainly, I think if he
24 tried calling other lawyers that are
25 representing clients, they may not get phone
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• 1 That is m
et answers
r m
not
ll
b
k
y
.
g
ca
s
ac
o
ay
2 policy that whenever somebody calls me
3 regardless of what -- where they're calling me
4 from, I answer all questions and answer them
5 honestly to the best of my knowledge. So I
6 apologize that I didn't explain to you that it
7 was an accessory apartment to a third-party.
8 That is what an accessory apartment is.
9 With respect to again, this permit is an
10 annual permit. So if you find that we have
11 not complied with removal of the fence there
12 is recourse. That is the beauty of this
13 process is that we have to comply. So I think
14 that certainly having this prolonged -- I
15 think you've heard from everybody. I don't
16 know that you need to hear any more, but
17 that'll be your decision. Does anybody want
18 to say anything or have you finished?
19 Okay.
20 MS. LAMBIRIS: Thank you so much for
21 hearing us today and I do respect and thank
22 all the neighbors that came out and spoke as
23 well. You know, I'm just a student right now
29 and my mother is -- English is her second
25 language. If throughout the process of
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1 reconstruction she didn't understand or there
2 was some problem, again it was not
3 intentional. Again, we do what this to be a
4 family owned property where we can enjoy the
5 summers, but at this moment in time we are
6 financially obligated and hopefully we can get
7 the permit to keep our home. I've lived in it
8 since I was five and I really don't want to
9 lose this home. So if you can grant the
10 permit I'd really be so happy.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
13 Hearing no further comment, I'll make a
14 motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
15 until later -- oh.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Come to the --
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're recording it,
18 ma'am. Restate your name, please.
19 MS. APOSTELIDES: Linda Apostelides, 245
20 Captain Kidd. I just want to know whatever
21 the outcome of this today is do we get a
22 letter in writing telling us?
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
24 MS. APOSTELIDES: How do we know that you
25 have approved or disapproved?
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• ffi
O
C
ll th
1 ce.
MEMBER SIM
N:
a
e o
2 BOARD ASST.: Call the office and we'll
3 give you a copy after it's signed.
9 MS. APOSTELIDES: How do we know when to
5 call?
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Call on the --
7 after September 5.
8 MS. APOSTELIDES: After September 5th call
9 which office?
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Our office, 765-
11 1809.
12 MS. APOSTELIDES: And you'll let me know
• 13 whether or not it's been approved or
14 disapproved?
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just remember it
16 has nothing to do with the approval or
17 disapproval, it's what conditions we place on
18 it and so on and so forth. All of which run -
19 -
20 MS. APOSTELIDES: I guess basically what
21 I would like know, to have peace of mind
22 knowing is that the tenant who lives there is
23 supposed to be living there. Thank you.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: You're welcome.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Again, hearing no
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• ti
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2 hearing, reserving decision for later.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
4 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
6 HEARING #6167 - Michael and
7 Susan Jeffries
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ms. Moore, we're
9 ready.
10 MRS. MOORS: Jeffries, we're continuing
11 Jeffries.
12 MS. HANNON: I'm Quincy Hannon from
• 13 Hollander Design.
14 BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
15 MRS. MOORS: We actually had the Zoning -
16 - excuse me, Trustees' hearing last night on
17 this application. The Trustees approved the
18 pool where it is proposed and it was an
19 interesting discussion we had with regard to
20 it because the feelings of the Trustees, cause
21 I saw you got the LWRP that said we were at
22 zero setback, and their reaction as well as my
23 reaction when I saw this, the LWRP coordinator
24 looks at Fisher's Island as if it is to go
25 back to being a natural island without homes.
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ral island
f th
t
th
l
k
1 e na
u
e s
opes o
They ta
e
2 into consideration for coastal -- I don't
3 understand how he came to that, because I did
4 submit to you the cross-section to get the
5 precise (inaudible) and we show you by way of
6 this exhibit what the angle, what the
7 elevations are and the cross-sections of this
8 property and you can see that this area of
9 Fisher's Island you go from beaches to slate
10 bluffs, but it's relatively sort of hilly and
11 sloping, it's not truly a crest of a bluff as
12 (inaudible) she understands this. Most of you
13 do and you were there.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: We were there.
15 MRS. MOORE: So when this pool was placed
16 on this property as a proposed pool, it was
17 located in the area that was originally
18 proposed to be a terrace and stairs down. The
19 pool is in that general area and again it was
20 placed in a location where we were somewhat
21 tucking it in between the extensions of
22 fingers of the house. So it is setback -- the
23 wall I believe we had at 40, no --
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: 45.6.
25 MRS. MOORE: Thank you. 45.6, that is
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• 1 venin
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a
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2 out the backyard to create the area for the
3 pool or terrace, whatever, I think at the time
4 we were doing the terrace there was a wall
5 proposed there too. Did we have a landscape
6 wall?
7 MS. HANNON: No, it was just a terrace
8 with steps down.
9 MRS. MOORE: Okay, with steps down. The
10 setback of the existing house is 52 and the
11 proposed pool is -- sorry, I'm kind of losing
12 it here, I can only fit so much information in
. 13 my head -- 56.6 is the corner of the pool to
14 the top of the bluff.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: We have that.
16 MRS. MOORE: And you have that. So we're
17 kind of continuing this hearing so if you have
18 a question we'll answer it. I don't want to
19 rehash everything.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The question is how
21 are you going to deal with the inconsistency
22 of the LWRP?
23 MRS. MOORE: Well, I think that's what we
29 analyzed last night, which is we don't
25 necessarily agree with the determination of
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1 the setback based on the definition in the
2 Code and the slopes here on Fisher's Island.
3 We had already incorporated the mitigation
4 measures of the vegetation at the top of the
5 bluff, the drywells. We've actually
6 incorporated all of the recommendations into
7 the house plans and now we actually from last
8 night I think we agreed to -- are we adding
9 additional vegetation?
10 MS. HANNON: We're adding an additional
11 10-foot native planting buffer at the base of
12 the slope and replacing the lawn with native
. 13 vegetation.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Are you going to
15 give me that in writing?
16 MRS. MOORS: Do we have other plans
17 coming in for the Trustees? I don't remember
18 if they needed one last night or not.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: I do for my record.
20 MS. HANNON: I'm happy to do that, yes.
21 To provide a plan with showing the exact
22 species of native vegetation that we'll be
23 including at the base of the slope there.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Now, your
25 contention is that that will then make the
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•
1 LWRP more consistent?
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, more consistent?
3 MRS. MOORS: Yes, in addition to the
4 drywell systems that are proposed.
5 BOARD ASST.: Is it possible you can put
6 that in a letter with the plan explaining
7 that?
8 MRS. MOORS: Sure. When I get the plan
9 I'll include a letter with it that says that
10 there are incorporated drywells and --
11 BOARD ASST.: And how you're mitigating
12 the LWRP.
13 MRS. MOORS: Yes.
19 BOARD ASST.: Okay, thank you.
15 MRS. MOORS: Fine, we can do that.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the unique
17 part about this one is that several Board
18 members have seen this site, which is of
19 course more than magnificent. The Board
20 members that have seen the site, I do not have
21 that --
22 MEMBER SIMON: First of all, I think I'm
23 the only Board member who has seen the site
24 since the pool was planned.
25 MEMBER OLIVA: I've seen it before.
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h
d
h
l
'
1 MEMBER SIMON: T
ve starte
t
e poo
ey
2 apparently --
3 MRS. MOORS: The pool was what?
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Since the pool was
5 planned.
6 MRS. MOORS: Oh, planned. Okay.
7 MEMBER SIMON: Because when we saw it a
8 year ago or two years ago there was no pool
9 and the preexisting house, which has been
10 totally replaced by a completely different
11 house.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
. 13 MEMBER SIMON: And it's -- and you could
14 see -- you're ankle deep in mud. I was out
15 there on the 7th and, obviously, at the time of
16 the Fisher's Island meeting and obviously I
17 went out there at the same time that the
18 Trustees and the LWRP coordinator (inaudible)
19 there and somebody lost a shoe in there.
20 MRS. MOORS: Yes.
21 MEMBER SIMON: You weren't there at the
22 time.
23 MRS. MOORS: No I was --
24 MEMBER SIMON: You heard about it, okay.
25 MRS. MOORS: Yeah, I heard about it.
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d it l
k
d t
I
1 oo
e
o me
MEMBER SIMON: An
2 think very, very different from what it had
3 looked like two years ago when I saw it. I
4 don't quite understand how they came up with
5 this zero feet, but what I do remember is the
6 discussion is what you have here is -- I'm
7 just describing this for the benefit of the
8 Board as well -- is you have this house, this
9 magnificent house. Then, there is this very
10 sharply steep sloping grassy front lawn which
11 is now mostly covered with mud which then goes
12 down to an area which is the top of the bank.
13 It's about 50 feet I would say, not 100 feet,
14 not beyond that.
15 The problem is that you have this thing
16 sloping down toward the embank and there's no
17 way of course they could build a pool on that
18 because it would go right into the water,
19 however, far a way it may be, but they're
20 putting in which you haven't seen, a retaining
21 wall.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: We have seen.
23 MRS. MOORE: It's on the plans.
24 MEMBER SIMON: It's on the plans, we
25 haven't seen it. So it's going to make part
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. 1 ool
but
stain a
fl
t
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f th
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,
p
awn
a
enoug
o su
e
o
2 you still have this high area of the pool.
3 The top -- the water of the pool will be quite
4 far above the bank. Now, the question is how
5 does that fly? If we're measuring distance
6 from the top of the bank rather than the
7 retaining wall, I don't know whether there's
8 any Code that requires how close you have to
9 be to the retaining wall. Probably there's no
10 requirement at all as long as something holds
11 the pool up.
12 MS. HANNON: Right.
• 13 MEMBER SIMON: But as far as I can see,
19 the only thing that is holding the pool up to
15 keep it from crashing down is going to be this
16 retaining wall. Is that your understanding as
17 well?
18 MS. HANNON: That's exactly right and we
19 have an engineer working on the project that
20 is -- I mean you saw all of the other walls
21 onsite, which are pretty extensive. So we
22 definitely are making great -- we're taking
23 great pains to insure that the pool won't fall
24 down the bluff.
25 MEMBER SIMON: Right. Apparently, this
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•
1 is just -- one of the things we learned, we
2 were shown around by, clearly, the owners.
3 This thing is being built on a materials plus
4 labor, cost. In other words, no ceiling on
5 expenses. So the impression was, that I have,
6 they will do whatever needs to be done they
7 don't imagine that in this century they're
8 going to run out of money and that this will
9 be done, and whatever needs to be done will be
10 done and, therefore, we have both the
11 opportunity and the obligation to make sure
12 that whatever is done is going to be there for
13 30 or 40 years.
14 MS. HANNON: And that absolutely is the
15 intention.
16 MRS. MOORE: I would also point out, just
17 as a deviation to the pool, originally it was
18 going to be, I guess, two level --
19 MS. HANNON: Have a shallow end and a
20 deep end and now it's just a continuous depth
21 of five feet.
22 MRS. MOORE: Five-foot depth, it'll be
23 all a five-foot depth pool. I just want to
24 make sure that's on the record so you --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: We have that. We have
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• dibl
1 e).
that (inau
2 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: It shows the contour of
4 the slope and the change in grade level.
5 MRS. MOORE: Yes, right.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's a six-foot high
7 retaining wall with plenty of footings below
8 the frost line. So --
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, that's right.
10 It's in here.
11 MEMBER SIMON: What is pretty amazing to
12 me and I think it was to the Trustees who saw
. 13 it at this time, there you have a piece of
14 property which is not only at the top of a
15 bluff, but steeply sloping into the bluff and
16 who would ever have thought that you could
17 build a sizeable swimming pool on such a place
18 that is sloping down toward a bluff that is
19 very steep. The answer is you can do anything
20 --
21 MRS. MOORE: With money.
22 MEMBER SIMON: -- with competent people
23 and a lot of money.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: Right, thanks Pat.
25 MEMBER SIMON: And apparently the
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1 Trustees are persuaded by that.
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: They could build the
3 Great Wall of China, you could put in a six-
4 foot --
5 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- retaining wall. You
7 can excavate, but it's a major work of
8 engineering. I mean it's holding the water
9 in, it's not causing a change in soil, it's
10 not --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, but once it's
12 done it's like an anchor.
13 MRS. MOORS: It's going to be --
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Structurally it's very
15 doable. As long as there's drywells and run-
16 off is contained, your Honor, to Code, but I
17 would like to see that letter addressing LWRP
18 describing cause I want to know just how in
19 the world they got zero. I don't understand
20 how that could possibly be.
21 MRS. MOORS: Well, they're -- as I
22 understand from Mr. Polari (sic) is that he
23 looked -- there is an inconsistency in the
24 Code with respect to definition of setback to
25 the bluff.
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1 MEMBER SIMON
Ri
ht
:
g
.
2 MRS. MOORS: The wetland ordinance speaks
3 in terms of 25 feet landward of the crest of
4 the bank, which he looks at the entire
5 property as the bank.
6 MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh.
7 MRS. MOORS: (inaudible) the true bank we
8 have.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
10 MEMBER SIMON: I see. What I'm calling a
11 steep slope, he's calling part of the bluff.
12 MRS. MOORS: It's not a bluff.
• 13 MEMBER SIMON: Uh-huh.
14 MRS. MOORS: It's the bank and the zoning
15 code that you deal with is defining the bluff
16 and a (inaudible) slope and that is the true,
17 my understanding of the true definition of a
18 bluff. So you have an unusual circumstance
19 where he's reviewing the LWRP and I honestly I
20 don't know -- I do not have the definition in
21 the LWRP, but he says it matches the
22 definition of the (inaudible) Wetland
23 Ordinance and that's the definition he was
24 using. But, even given his definition or that
25 definition, it still didn't make sense because
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1 25 feet landward of the
if
t
ki
you were
a
ng
2 bank, the top of the bank, which we all from
3 previous Zoning and Trustee hearings we've
4 already made a determination of where that
5 bank is and that was the survey I gave you
6 with a highlight, that's a Town-determined
7 bank based on the previous applications we've
8 had. If you take it -- the (inaudible)
9 definition of 25 feet landward of that, we're
10 still 25 feet landward of that because we're
11 more than 50 feet of the pool.
12 So I would say that conservatively using
. 13 his definition of 25 feet away, not zero. So
14 again I just don't understand where the zero,
15 except for the fact of his analysis the
16 Fisher's Island properties are all the
17 properties are banks.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Well, it's -- we would
19 appreciate any help we have cause we have to
20 write the LWRP and we have to write an
21 interpretation of the response. So what you
22 want to do is --
23 MRS. MOORS: Alright, I'll put that in
24 writing.
25 MEMBER SIMON: Let me suggest how --
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C J
r~
1 BOARD ASST.: Could you do me a favor?
2 When you say he, I don't know who he is.
3 MRS. MOORS: He is Polari (sic).
4 MEMBER SIMON: Polari (sic).
5 BOARD ASST.: Oh, alright.
6 MRS. MOORS: So my conversation was with
7 (inaudible) to understand where he was coming
8 from because when I heard what his analysis is
9 I had to call him right away and say what are
10 you talking about. So that's when he
11 explained to me his analysis.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could we continue -
13 -
14 MEMBER SIMON: Now, let me have another
15 try at what he may have been thinking.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- here? We still
17 have other hearings.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Let me just finish cause I
19 think this is important for this.
20 MRS. MOORS: Okay.
21 MEMBER SIMON: If we're going to approve
22 this, we have to deal with the fact of the
23 zero foot thing, too. I can imagine that if
24 you look at that and you didn't know that
25 there was going to be a retaining wall, cause
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• 1 it
ld l
k
't b
b
ilt
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i
h
wou
oo
as
asn
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u
ye
,
t
2 though the pool is being built at the edge of
3 the bank. Because it slopes all the way up to
4 the pool, so that's how you can get zero.
5 It's not a matter of 25 feet, that's how you
6 can get zero. If you look as though the pool
7 is being built there and the bank goes down
8 here, they're going to put up a wall in
9 between so that they're essentially extending
10 it.
11 MRS. MOORE: Okay. I won't argue.
12 MEMBER SIMON: That is the way of making
13 intuitive sense so this --
14 MRS. MOORE: I'll give you what the Code
15 says.
16 BOARD ASST.: That's all I needed. Could
17 I just ask a little question?
18 MRS. MOORS: Yes?
19 BOARD ASST.: When you first applied to
20 the Towns with your surveys. Your surveyor
21 draws the top of the bluff line.
22 MRS. MOORS: Yes.
23 BOARD ASST.: Could you just mention how
24 your surveyor got that top of the bluff line
25 and that would be our staring point to go from
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1 th
ere.
2 MEMBER SIMON: That would help.
3 BOARD ASST.: That would help us.
4 MRS. MOORE: Okay, but that -- if you
5 remember, I mean, I don't know if I -- that
6 was in the Zoning variance for the house.
7 BOARD ASST.: I know, but you submitted
8 that initially when you first started so
9 that's like a starting point, the top of the
10 bluff. Just explain to us how he arrived at
11 that top of the bluff.
12 MRS. MOORS: Alright, I'll try to get
. 13 (inaudible).
19 BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Anybody
16 else like to speak in favor or against this
17 application?
18 MS. HANNON: I just want to clarify one
19 thing. The last time I was here you asked me
20 if there would be planting on the face of the
21 walls and there definitely will be. I brought
22 a copy of the planting plan.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, wonderful.
24 MEMBER SIMON: Good, good. That would
25 help.
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're all excited
MEMBER WEISMAN
W
1 .
:
e
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes.
3 MS. HANNON: Just to show you quickly
4 this is the planting that's going at the base
5 of the wall.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Great,
7 that's exactly what we wanted.
8 MS. HANNON: And then it will -- I'll
9 provide an additional plan with Pat's letter
10 of the planting that will go along here --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
12 MS. HANNON: -- which is basically going
13 to be a continuation of this buffer that was
14 required by the DEC.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can have this
16 right?
17 MS. HANNON: Yes.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Made it. We can mark
19 that. Stamp it.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We want to mark
21 that. We got a lot of finals on this one.
22 MRS. MOORE: A lot of what?
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Final stamps, final
24 approval. Assuming --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: We have a new stamp.
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1 N GOEHRINGER
W
C
h
:
ave a new
HAIRMA
e
2 stamp.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: It says, Final.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So one doesn't get
5 confused in the --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: With the 17 sets of
7 plans we have for every application.
8 BOARD ASST.: Especially when they keep
9 getting revised along the way.
10 MRS. MOORS: Thank you very much for your
11 time.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, again I
13 make a motion to close the hearing, reserve
19 decision to later.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm sorry, pending
17 the two things that they're going to give us.
18 The LWRP and the additional perimeter planting
19 plan.
20 MEMBER SIMON: LWRP response.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah and the LWRP
22 response it goes with the plan.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: So moved.
24 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
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1 G #6189 - S
A
d
l
HEARIN
pyro
v
ou
os
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I'm sorry, it
3 is a new hearing. I do apologize, that's
4 right. It's Michael's, you read it.
5 MEMBER SIMON:
6 "Request for a Variance under Section
7 280-116A(1) based on the Building Inspector's
8 June 10, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
9 a proposed amendment to plan for a new
10 dwelling at less than the code-required 100
11 foot minimum from the top of the bluff or bank
12 of the Long Island Sound, at 54985 North Road,
13 Greenport: CTM 99-1-5."
14 Pat?
15 MRS. MOORS: Yes, thank you. Okay, well,
16 we are here today because the Trustees, when
17 we went back to try to resolve the differences
18 with that Board, had us push the house on its
19 existing foundation, which was very important
20 to my client to keep the foundation, push the
21 house back on the existing foundation and we
22 got a permit from the Trustees with the plan
23 that I gave you, which shows the cross-section
24 of -- it's the plan that is prepared by Angel
25 Chornos on April 29, '08 revised May 22, '08 -
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h
h
1 anges to t
e
- that shows the incremental c
2 plan. That plan shows that the original
3 house, as you recall, was on the foundation
4 and it was right up to the end of where the
5 foundation presently is on the water.
6 We pushed the house -- we eliminated the
7 portion of the house that was in the coastal
8 erosion and we retained the foundation which
9 is the existing foundation part of it 7.5 feet
10 being a patio with the new house, new portions
11 of the house starting thereafter back behind.
12 That's when you-know-what hit the fan and the
. 13 Trustees stopped us and we came to you because
14 we were told by the contractor that he thought
15 we needed the wall on the foundation, which
16 ultimately after all was said and done, Joe
17 Fischetti said, no we don't need a new wall on
18 the foundation. It was fine, we could
19 mitigate it other ways, but by then the
20 Building Department said, no you need to go to
21 the Trustees anyway.
22 The Trustees then pushed it as I said --
23 well let me go back. You issued a variance
24 #6060 in August '07 for the original plans
25 that the Trustees had reviewed. Then you
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i
i
1 approved this project w
th a new foundat
on
2 wall, which we believed we needed with ZBA
3 decision #6145 approved April '08. After we
4 went back to the Trustees with your approval
5 for the new foundation wall, the Trustees
6 pushed us back. I'm sorry I keep going back
7 and forth, but we moved the house back the
8 extra 10 feet so that now we have the existing
9 foundation with the house pushed back another
10 10 feet for a total of 18 feet, 7.5 plus 10,
11 but given the location of the chimney, it
12 actually is 18 feet back on the existing
• 13 foundation and it requires more landward
14 construction, more house on the landside of
15 the foundation with a slab and because we now
16 cut the house back on the foundation, we had a
17 narrower footprint we were working with. So
18 the client made up some of the difference on
19 the landward side of the house.
20 So we had to come back to you again
21 because the entire development is within your
22 100 feet and so every time that one Board
23 changes something it goes back to the other
29 and here we are for the third time before your
25 Board, and hopefully for the last time.
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wn
I
it'
h
h
h
th
1 ,
s s
o
ouse as
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Where we
2 think we gave you -- we gave plans, as I
3 recall, that showed where the existing house
4 is. The existing foundation, the portion of
5 the house that sits over the existing
6 foundation and the portion of the house that
7 sits over the new slab, all on the landward
8 side of the existing foundation.
9 I would -- I just, for the record, I do
10 want to incorporate by reference all of the
11 expert testimony and all the testimony that
12 had previously been given to you in decision
13 #6060 and decision #6145 cause we keep
14 rehashing over the same things that the
15 property is stable. There's really no slope
16 there. The beach is there, it's rocky with a
17 jetty protected with a bulkhead. So we've got
18 multiple protections here and unfortunately we
19 have the duplication in our Code that makes
20 this kind of terrible ping-ponging effect that
21 we have here with again hopefully you being
22 the last ping of the pong.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What's happening
29 with that 18 feet? Is that a porch?
25 MRS. MOORS: It becomes a -- it's still a
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• 1 ti
o, yes.
pa
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a patio?
3 MRS. MOORS: It's -- well it's -- Angel
4 Chornos.
5 MR. CHORNOS: It's a foundation wall
6 that's roughly 1-1/2 to 2 feet down.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
8 MR. CHORNOS: And the Trustees didn't
9 want us to disturb the foundation. So we're
10 putting a slab on top of that and --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: A cement slab.
12 MR. CHORNOS: Yes, a concrete slab and
. 13 becomes a patio.
19 MRS. MOORS: But below it we still have
15 the basement.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: The crawlspace?
17 MRS. MOORS: No, it's a basement.
18 MR. CHORNOS: It goes down 10 feet so we
19 keep the basement. So part of the slab is
20 going to be on top of the basement.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, I see.
22 MRS. MOORS: We're talking a different
23 slab, Leslie. The slab that is creating --
29 MEMBER WEISMAN: Oh, this is landward. I
25 see.
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l
i
th
Ri
ht
th
1 e craw
space
s
e
g
,
MRS. MOORS:
2 landward addition of the house.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
4 MRS. MOORS: Yeah.
5 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, can I ask some
6 questions. I'm increasingly becoming less
7 unclear on it thanks to your presentation.
8 Now, my understanding is that originally
9 they thought they were going to have to put a
10 new foundation wall on the seaward side.
11 MRS. MOORS: On the -- actually it was on
12 the east side wall.
. 13 MEMBER SIMON: It was on the east side,
14 okay. Cause on the seaside I'm seeing there
15 is a foundation wall, which is being retained
16 --
17 MRS. MOORS: Yes.
18 MEMBER SIMON: -- and instead of having
19 the house go out to the edge of that, that's
20 going to be patio.
21 MRS. MOORS: That's right. Correct.
22 MEMBER SIMON: And then the house is
23 pushed back on the foundation, keeping the
24 foundation, but moving the whole house back.
25 With, in fact, therefore a new foundation wall
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• h
id
1 s
e.
on the sout
2 MRS. MOORS: Right.
3 MR. CHORNOS: It's not a new foundation
4 wall, it's going to be a (inaudible) on top of
5 the basement.
6 MEMBER SIMON: It's going to be
7 cantilevered essentially, on the --
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
9 MRS. MOORS: No, no.
10 MR. CHORNOS: There's a beam that goes --
11 MRS. MOORS: No, I think he's asking a
12 different question.
13 MEMBER SIMON: On the landward side.
19 MRS. MOORS: Here's the existing
15 foundation. Here's the top wall and the floor
16 and the -- which is not going to be there
17 anymore. We have to replace the flooring
18 after so long a wait. Here's the existing
19 foundation.
20 MEMBER SIMON: Right, yeah.
21 MRS. MOORS: The original house ended
22 here.
23 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
29 MRS. MOORS: The original propose --
25 first application to you had it starting here
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• h
d b
k
1 een ta
en
because this part of the house
a
2 away.
3 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
4 MRS. MOORS: The Trustees said move it
5 back more. Meaning to here.
6 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah.
7 MRS. MOORS: So now the foundation is
8 still in the same place, but the house --
9 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
10 MRS. MOORS: -- was moved to start on the
11 existing foundation back on the existing
12 foundation to 18 feet. So from here where the
13 foundation is to the seaward wall --
19 MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
15 MRS. MOORS: -- begins, is 18 feet.
16 MEMBER SIMON: Yes. What about the
17 roadward?
18 MRS. MOORS: This part? That's all new.
19 MEMBER SIMON: That's what I was saying.
20 Is that they had to build new southern
21 foundation wall because the whole house is
22 being move southward and that was going to be
23 hanging over empty space.
24 MRS. MOORS: Yeah, this part was always.
25 MEMBER SIMON: That's new.
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it was here which
Wh
th
MOORS
MRS
1 er
:
e
.
2 needed a smaller, or here which needed a
3 larger footing or slab.
4 MEMBER SIMON: That has been moved. Now
5 is --
6 MRS. MOORS: Not moved, new construction.
7 MEMBER SIMON: New construction, right.
8 It -- okay. Now the reason for retaining the
9 seaward foundation wall it is now going to
10 support only a patio, not a part of the house,
11 is because there's a need to use that part of
12 the house in order to get by the part of the
13 Code that says you can build landward? Could
14 that have been destroyed and replaced?
15 MRS. MOORS: Well, we would have started
16 at the beginning with a complete demo of the
17 foundation and everything, but the client
18 didn't want to do that cause there's a
19 valuable foundation --
20 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, but --
21 MRS. MOORS: -- 9-foot ceiling.
22 MEMBER SIMON: I understand that. Am I
23 right in saying if that had been done the
24 house starting from scratch would not be built
25 over where the northern edge of that patio is
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1 whole house would be further
b
th
i
t
e,
e
go
ng
o
2 back and the whole foundation because you
3 wouldn't be able to qualify for the variance
4 for the preexisting structure (inaudible).
5 MRS. MOORS: Yeah, but remember our
6 original plan was keeping the walls and the
7 flooring and everything. I mean the
8 (inaudible) parts of it, but the Trustees
9 didn't understand that and so they don't see
10 enough wood there and --
11 MEMBER SIMON: I understand. Okay. There
12 are plenty of good reasons for not having a
. 13 total demolition. What I'm saying is, if
14 there had had to be a total demolition, if
15 both the northern and the eastern walls were
16 perceived to be shot then the house would be
17 built further landward than it's now being
18 built. So essentially you're using the fact
19 that you're saving the northern wall of the
20 foundation as the northern point to anchor the
21 house and then you can build landward as far
22 as the setback laws require.
23 MRS. MOORS: Sure.
24 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, now I understand it
25 a little better than I did before.
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tback is
S
th
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER
1 o
e se
:
2 exactly the same as it was before?
3 MRS. MOORS: It's not changed.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not changed.
5 To the cement patio, the house starts 18 feet
6 past that?
7 MRS. MOORS: Right.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: Correct.
9 MRS. MOORS: You got it. See? You guys
10 have always got it.
11 MEMBER SIMON: Well, what's hard is to
12 understand it well enough to be able to write
. 13 it up clearly.
14 MRS. MOORS: Right.
15 MEMBER SIMON: So if a person hasn't seen
16 it can understand it.
17 MRS. MOORS: That's true.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: So Pat the setback from
19 the top of the bluff to the raised patio is?
20 MRS. MOORS: From the top of the bluff to
21 the raised patio is 19. Is that 19?
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I thought it was
23 23.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: I want in the record --
25 MRS. MOORS: I'm sorry, it was from the
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lkh
ad
l
b
t th
i
bl
ff
b
1 so
u
e
ere
s a
u
,
u
top of the
2 there as well. So I think we were using top
3 of bluff, but you have the bulkhead as well.
4 BOARD ASST.: And what is it? From top
5 of bluff?
6 MRS. MOORE: Let me see if I have a
7 survey that shows it.
8 BOARD ASST.: Yes, it looks like it
9 encroaches. The patio encroaches over the
10 coastal zone line.
11 MRS. MOORE: Well, yeah. The 19 is
12 measured to the stairs cause remember you have
• 13 to go down --
14 BOARD ASST.: No, I don't mean the
15 stairs, I mean the patio is encroaching
16 according to the survey.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, it does.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: It looks like it's going
19 to be 19 feet.
20 BOARD ASST.: One corner of the patio.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That one corner of
22 the patio encroaches a little bit. You can
23 see the --
24 MRS. MOORE: Yes. On the drawing,
25 Angel's drawing. This is --
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it'
T
T
th
ti
1 s zero or
.:
o
e pa
o
BOARD ASS
2 less. Yeah, cause of the encroachment 16.
3 Okay, thank you.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: 16 feet to the patio.
5 There's nothing new on the patio, right?
6 BOARD ASST.: No.
7 MRS. MOORS: Can we refer to the drawing
8 too just so that just because I don't want --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: The site plan.
10 MRS. MOORS: The site plan, yeah, that
11 has the cross-section on the top of it.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
. 13 MRS. MOORS: The one that has the
14 Trustees' stamp on it is the one I use so that
15 way --
16 BOARD ASST.: It's stamped 5/27/08 by the
17 Trustees'?
18 MRS. MOORS: Yes. Yeah, I want to keep
19 it to the same drawing.
20 BOARD ASST.: And the garage, the
21 existing garage, accessory garage is to be
22 demolished?
23 MRS. MOORS: Yes.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's different, note
25 that.
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1 MRS. MOORS: That's all more than 100
2 feet landward.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah. You do not want
4 any more problems with the Building --
5 MRS. MOORS: Please, no more problems.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anything else?
7 MRS. MOORS: I just want to be sure you
8 understand that at the Trustees we agreed that
9 we were it is demolish remains of existing
10 walls, flooring, and chimney, new dwelling
11 over existing foundation, which is about 18
12 feet back from the existing foundation --
13 MEMBER SIMON: Could I have that again?
14 MRS. MOORS: Demolish remains of existing
15 walls of the house --
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Including the chimney?
17 MRS. MOORS: Yes, including the chimney.
18 Flooring and chimney --
19 MEMBER SIMON: Demolish remains of
20 existing walls and chimney?
21 MRS. MOORS: Flooring also because of the
22 flooring and the chimney.
23 MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
24 MRS. MOORS: The new dwelling is
25 constructed over the existing foundation 18
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i 1 th
award end of the
f
t b
k f
ee
ac
rom
e se
2 foundation, starting with the new
3 construction, new addition, new construction
9 as shown.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, Pat we have
6 to address the LWRP.
7 BOARD ASST.: They've given us a letter.
8 MRS. MOORE: You have another one?
9 BOARD ASST.: It's a new application.
10 MRS. MOORE: Oh.
11 BOARD ASST.: And the LWRP said they were
12 referring it back to the old letter.
13 MRS. MOORE: Oh, they are. Can I refer
14 to my old LWRP?
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: You probably could
16 resubmit it that's all.
17 MRS. MOORE: Change the date and
18 resubmit? Okay, I have to find it in my
19 computer.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're done.
21 MRS. MOORE: Thank you. I hope not to
22 see you again on this one. Ever again.
23 MEMBER SIMON: Resolution to close the
24 hearing --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
. 1 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
3 HEARING #6190 - Michael Anasagasti
4 MEMBER WEISMAN:
5 "Request for Variances under Sections
6 280-15 and 280-124, based on the Building
7 Inspector's May 6, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
8 concerning an "as-built" deck addition to the
9 dwelling, which construction is less than 50
10 feet from the rear lot line and which has
11 caused an existing accessory building to be in
12 a yard other than the code-required rear yard
13 at 345 Private Road, Southold; CTM 78-9-90."
14 Thank you very much for your patience.
15 Would you state your name for the record?
16 MR. ANASAGASTI: My name is Mike
17 Anasagasti. I'm here speaking on behalf of my
18 mom, Ann Anasegasti. As for the patient part
19 I have Gina and my mom, so patience is
20 something we don't have to worry about.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: So all three of you.
22 MR. ANASAGASTI: Being I'm not familiar
23 with this I have these green things I'm --
24 BOARD ASST.: The greed cards. We'll
25 take those.
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WEI
MAN
Whil
'
i
i
1 :
e you
re organ
z
ng
MEMBER
S
2 those, let me just indicate the two variances
3 I believe we have before us and then you can
9 explain why and how it all happened.
5 MR. ANASAGASTI: Okay.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: This is an existing
7 deck, okay, an as-built deck with a rear yard
8 setback of 19 feet when the Code requires 50
9 feet on lots between 20,000 and 39,999 square
10 feet and you also have the fact that the as-
11 built deck causes this small shed that you
12 have, accessory building, to be actually in a
• 13 yard other than the required rear yard. It
14 places it partially in the side yard as a
15 result of the deck. So those are the two
16 variances.
17 Now perhaps you want to explain how it is
18 the deck got to be there and --
19 MR. ANASAGASTI: Well, my father, my late
20 father built the deck in like 1979,
21 apparently. He built it on -- actually on
22 blocks so there's no footings or nothing. So
23 I think he never thought it was a permanent
29 structure, I don't know. For other reasons, I
25 don't know why he never got a permit or
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1 anything of that nature. I do know that there
2 is a CO on the shed. That was all legal and
3 everything else was done with that, but as for
4 the deck I don't know why.
5 Upon his passing, I decided to see if
6 everything was legal, so I could help my mom
7 financially and found out that he never
8 applied for a CO or anything else. So upon
9 going to the Building Department they required
10 a variance because of the setback on it. I do
11 have something from the Assessor's Office that
12 shows that they were paying taxes on it since
13 1983. So the Town was obviously aware the
19 deck was there, it's just a matter of it being
15 legal. I don't know if you want to see that.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
17 BOARD ASST.: Do you have copies of these
18 (inaudible)?
19 MR. ANASAGASTI: I don't know if
20 (inaudible) --
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: We have that.
22 MR. ANASAGASTI: We also just got a
23 letter from the rear -- the lady adjoining my
24 mom to the rear. She stopped by my house and
25 gave me this letter basically saying that she
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1 didn't have a problem with any of it.
2 BOARD ASST.: Okay, we'll add that.
3 Thank you.
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Thank you. As I
5 understand it the effort to legalize this now
6 is so that you have full flexibility about
7 selling it or --
8 MR. ANASAGASTI: Right, well yeah.
9 BOARD ASST.: He'll address that.
10 MR. ANASAGASTI: I'll address that cause
11 --
12 MEMBER SIMON: It's for sale, the house.
13 MR. ANASAGASTI: I'll address the issue
14 of the sale. Basically, my mom is on a fixed
15 income right now and she's living off my
16 father's life insurance. So when I wanted to
17 make sure everything was legal to refinance
18 the house, I found out that things weren't and
19 now I'm trying to make everything correct.
20 My mom, because of her thing and she
21 obviously has some medical issues, my brother
22 lives in Florida and he was talking to my mom
23 about why don't you come with me. So my mom,
29 unbeknown to me, called a realtor in who --
25 you know, she wanted to find out how much the
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•
•
•
1 house was worth and all this, which I wasn't
2 aware of becauss they came in and they sweet
3 talked my mom, my mom signed a contract with
4 somebody. So I went to her house and I'm like
5 mom what are you doing? There's a contract on
6 the table and it's signed.
7 She never called me to notify me because
8 of the anxieties that she was having
9 financially, so basically she signed a
10 contract with somebody for three months and I
11 tried to explain to her, mom we don't even
12 have a CO on any of this stuff. You really
13 can't even sell the house if you wanted to
14 because my father basically wanted my mom to
15 stay there. So I was looking at a reverse
16 mortgage or refinancing. That was my thought.
17 You know, obviously there's a sign in front of
18 the house, there's no denying that. At the
19 time, I wasn't aware of what she was doing.
20 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
21 MR. ANASAGASTI: Okay, it's something I
22 had no control over. I was, ma, you can't
23 even sell it. It's not legal, you can't get
29 rid of the house.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: As far as I'm concerned
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• 1 it'
l
b
fit
h
l
w
s a
ways a
ene
en peop
e try to
2 legalize things.
3 MR. ANASAGASTI: Well, that's the whole
4 thing --
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: And that's the right
6 thing to do.
7 MR. ANASAGASTI: I mean that's what we're
8 trying to do.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: The property belongs to
10 you and you have the right to do whatever you
11 want to with it, but legalizing anything that
12 isn't legal at the moment is, I think, a very
13 commendable thing to do for whatever reasons.
14 MR. ANASAGASTI: Right.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: Even though it's fairly
16 close to the rear from a legal perspective
17 although it was built before that zoning was
18 in effect. They're pretty close to the rear
19 yard.
20 MEMBER SIMON: That's not true. It was
21 built in '72.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: '79 actually.
23 MEMBER SIMON: Alright, okay.
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: But in any case it's
25 fairly close, but it's also very heavily
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• i
1 vegetated and screened from the ne
ghbor who
2 may be affected.
3 MR. ANASAGASTI: Which she just wrote a
4 letter, that's the one.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: And she certainly has no
6 problem with it. It's a very flat area,
7 there's no environmental impact. There's no
8 run-off and the shed has been there for a long
9 time and it's just simply a matter of this now
10 wound up in a nonconforming situation because
11 of the deck. So I don't really have any
12 questions and I certainly don't have any
13 problems with it either. Let's see what else
14 the others --
15 MR. ANASAGASTI: Right, the other thing I
16 just wanted to state was that the deck was
17 really built before Highwood Drive was put in.
18 I mean that road was --
19 MEMBER SIMON: What? I'm sorry.
20 MR. ANASAGASTI: The houses surrounding
21 my mom's property weren't there. My father
22 actually had the road cut in. There was just
23 solid oak trees and Highwood Drive, the house
24 behind -- all them houses really weren't there
25 when my father did these things. Not that it
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•
1 makes anything different about compliance or
2 anything else, it's just it didn't change --
3 the neighborhood came around my parents'
4 house, if you understand what I'm saying.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. It's a very
7 well built deck, originally.
8 MR. ANASAGASTI: Actually, we have a ramp
9 on it so we use it as access to get my mom in
10 and out of the house.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any
12 questions.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael?
14 MEMBER SIMON: Yes. I looked at it and I
15 walked around and I -- Ms. Anasagasti?
16 MR. ANASAGASTI: Anasagasti, yes.
17 MEMBER SIMON: -- was there and so also
18 was the realtor, by the way, when I was there.
19 I saw the deck and I also walked around and I
20 saw sadly this is one of the reasons -- it
21 reminded me one of the reasons why building
22 permits are important. You could look at the
23 deck and you had a pretty good idea,
24 especially since it was built by -- that there
25 were no three-foot footings on that deck.
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1 Th
ll
t
f d
k
d
h
ere was some sma
amoun
o
ec
an
so t
e
2 problem was if this had been done -- if he had
3 applied for a deck, a permit for a deck in the
4 first place well over 30 years ago, and if he
5 had gotten -- first of all, he would have had
6 to apply for a variance because the house
7 itself is only 41 feet from the rear boundary
8 and the Code says 50 and then they're building
9 a 24-foot deck beyond that so the actual
10 setback is only 19 feet, and if that had been
11 granted there would have been a much safer
12 deck built than the one that was built. Your
13 father did a good job because it's still
14 there.
15 MR. ANASAGASTI: Well, I mean
16 structurally it's been there for 30 years and
17 if you look at it it's not a hazard.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Yeah, right. But it is
19 kind of awkward and I realize that yes, I
20 agree with Leslie that it's always a good idea
21 for people to legalize things. Sometimes, I
22 mean you say you can do whatever you want with
23 your property, except sell it, if you don't
24 have a C of 0. That's one of the things you
25 cannot do without the legalization and that's
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1 why you're here. Unless he decides not to
2 sell it. Three months can go by --
3 MR. ANASAGASTI: A three-month contract
4 is what we have now. There's nothing -- I
5 can't change what happened. I can't change
6 what my father did.
7 MEMBER SIMON: One thing as an informal
8 piece of advice, given the housing market,
9 You stand, for the price that it's listed the
10 chances of selling it, being forced to sell it
11 against your will, are pretty slim.
12 MR. ANASAGASTI: Oh, well that's -- we
13 understand the situation. I don't have to
14 worry about the three months expiring. What I
15 have to worry about is trying to legalize my
16 mother's house.
17 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
18 MR. ANASAGASTI: And financially take
19 care of my mom.
20 MEMBER SIMON: That's fine, because then
21 you can get a home equity loan or --
22 MR. ANASAGASTI: Right, exactly. Unlike
23 the people with the pool, we don't have that
24 kind of money.
25 MEMBER SIMON: Aside from your personal
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1 circumstances on this, and the idea of getting
2 something valuable on this. I think under
3 some circumstances we would be recommending
4 that this deck be not removed altogether, but
5 be cut back to a more modest size and have it
6 rebuilt according to Code.
7 A 24-foot deck, I know it's comfortable,
8 people look quite comfortable on a deck. You
9 were there and the real estate sales person
10 was there. It's a big deck on a nice piece of
11 land with lots of (inaudible). Does the deck
12 have to be that big? If it had come before
• 13 the Board at the time, my prediction is the
14 Board would have granted the variance, but not
15 for a 24-foot deck back in 1979. Gerry may
16 remember that.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I remember it.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, so in any case I
19 mean this is what we have to decide, whether
20 all things together make it reasonable for us
21 to grant the C of 0 for this particular deck
22 and you're welcome for any kind of information
23 that you and your family can provide to help
24 us persuade ourselves that this is the way you
25 want to go for approval.
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1 MR. ANASAGASTI: Alright, like I said at
2 this point I'm trying to take care of my mom
3 and this is one of the obstacles that's in the
4 way for me furthering secure my mom's future.
5 I mean we put the house in a life estate to
6 protect the house so that way we can take care
7 of my mom. I mean that's something that we
8 already did to try to take care of my mother.
9 So, at this point, I'm just trying to move
10 forward so this way we can get things
11 straightened up so I can address these other
12 issues financially. That's why we're doing
13 this.
14 MEMBER SIMON: Great. Alright --
15 MR. ANASAGASTI: Selling the house is
16 just something that my mom, through an anxiety
17 attack, decided to do with a realtor. The
18 three month thing, I've got a house on the
19 corner from me that's been on the market for
20 two and a half years.
21 MEMBER SIMON: Right, that's not a big
22 problem for me.
23 MR. ANASAGASTI: So I'm not really
24 concerned about the realtor or selling the
25 house. What I'm looking to do is correct
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1 something that my father did a long time ago
2 so this way I can help my mom because
3 unfortunately that's my job right now to try
4 to take care of my mom the best I can.
5 MEMBER SIMON: Are you the -- do you have
6 brothers and sisters?
7 MR. ANASAGASTI: I have two brothers and
8 a sister, but (inaudible) out of state so it's
9 basically up to me --
10 MEMBER SIMON: Okay.
11 MR. ANASAGASTI: -- to do all the
12 maintenance and --
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think several of
14 us understand your problem and we're
15 sympathetic to it. So I think it's to the
16 point where we just need to close the hearing.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So we --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: I make a motion.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, I'll second
21 it.
22 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
24 (OFF THE RECORD)
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ZBA Town of Southold - August 21, 2008
1 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
2 transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings were
3 prepared using four-track electronic transcription
9 equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
5 Hearings.
6
7 Signature
8 Denise G sowski
9
10 Agency Name: Pugliese's Court Reporting
11 and Transcription Service
12 Address of Agency: 4 Saddlebrook Lane
13 Manorville, New York 11999
14
15 Date: September 1, 2008
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