HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA-07/24/2008 Hearing 1
2 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
3 COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK
4 --------------------------------------------x
5 TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
6
7 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
8 --------------------------------------------x
9 Southold Town Hall
10 Southold, New York
11
12 July 24, 2008
13 9:30 a.m.
14
15 Board Members Present:
16
17 GERARD P. GOEHRINGER - Chairman/Member
18 RUTH D. OLIVA - Member
19 JAMES DINIZIO, JR. - Member
20 MICHAEL A. SIMON - Member
21 LESLIE KANES WEISMAN - Member (start - 2:46)
22 LINDA KOWALSKI - Board Assistant
23 KIERAN CORCORAN - Assistant Town Attorney
24 (9:90 - 12:00)
25 (1:35 - end)
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B~JA2D OFAPPEAIS ORIGINAL
2
ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
. 1 INDEX OF HEARINGS
2 Hearing: Page:
3 J. and A. Mazur #6176 3-28
9 Stein Family Trust #6179 28-45
5 William Lutkowski #6185 45-56
6 Vincent and Maureen Papa #6183 56-63
7 Pine Neck Holdings #6180 63-72
8 Gregory and Stacey Schweitzer #6184 72-82
9 Arthur R. Torell #6182 82-91
10 Greg and Karmen Dadourian #6131 91-154
11 Henry and Barbara A. Traendly #6154 154-180
12 Eve Seber and Carlo Voelker #6156 180-189
13 John Scourakis #6157 189-198
14 Joseph and Cathleen Shipman #6173 198-198
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 29, 2008
• 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Call meeting to
2 order. Motion?
3 BOARD MEMBER So moved.
4 BOARD MEMBER Second.
6 HEARING #6176 - J. and A. Mazur.
7 MEMBER DINIZIO:
8 "This is request for variances under
9 Section 280-129, based on the Building
10 Inspector's June 27, 2008 amended Notice of
11 Disapproval concerning a proposed deck
12 addition to a dwelling less than 35 feet from
13 the front lot line and proposed lot coverage
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15 Camp Mineola Road (and Fay Court), Mattituck;
16 CTM 123-5-36-2."
17 MS. MOORE: Thank you. Do you have a
18 stenographer or not tonight -- today?
19 MEMBER KOWALSKI: It's a recording.
20 MS. MOORE: Recording. Patricia Moore,
21 510-20 Main Road --
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I just wanted to
23 tell the Board and I thank you for bringing
24 that up cause I was going to mention it, in
25 this particular situation I think we're going
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
. 1 to have to identify ourselves when we discuss
2 this with you.
3 MS. MOORS: Okay.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It would make it
5 much easier and I think probably it would be
6 to everybody's benefit, even on your
7 particular case and everybody subsequent to
8 you.
g MS. MOORS: Okay, good idea. Yeah.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Go ahead.
11 MS. MOORS: Well, it's Patricia Moore,
12 again. I am here on behalf of the applicant.
13 This is an existing house that received
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variances for its setbacks
15 about two years ago. The house is completed.
16 As you recall from that variance, I'm sure you
17 remember, the house needed to be raised to
18 FEMA standards. As you know all of the homes
19 here on -- between Camp Mineola and Fay Court
20 as they are being renovated require for the
21 most part demolition and reconstruction
22 because none of them meet the FEMA -- the
23 height requirements to meet the FEMA
24 regulations.
25 So we have the house here that has the
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
• 1 back door, the sliding glass door that goes
2 out to an elevated height of 10.6 for first
3 finished floor elevation and the family wants
4 to put a deck, which they have designed here
5 to in a sense comply with the balance of the
6 homes that are along Fay Court.
7 I would refer you to the Dunn
8 application, which we did not too long ago, I
9 could certainly provide from that file average
10 setbacks that we had done for that particular
11 application, which showed that all the homes
12 along Fay -- that were on Fay Court, which
13 this one faces both Camp Mineola and Fay
14 Court, they tend to be compliant with the Camp
15 Mineola side of the street, because obviously
16 the sanitary system has to be on that side
17 based on the sanitary regulations, so most of
18 the homes do comply with the front yard
19 setback of 35 feet on Camp Mineola Road.
20 However, this particular house has three front
21 yards. The Fay Court side, the homes that are
22 on Fay Court are an average setback of 9 feet
23 from Fay Court. In this instance they have a
24 deck. The deck is setback at 10 feet from Fay
25 Court and it is designed in such a way so it
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
. 1 maintains the character of the area. It is --
2 there is privacy. The larger portion of the
3 deck is facing Allen Drive, which is a not-
4 open or somewhat open roadway, but it is in
5 fact a right-of-way. That is the more private
6 area of the property and then behind the house
7 is a 11-foot deck to give access and usable
8 space for this house. The house and the deck
9 is really the living area of this property.
10 The rest of the property is yard, but not
11 truly usable for entertaining and barbecuing
12 and typical things that you do on your deck.
13 I'd be happy to discuss any questions you
• -- I can refer
if
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might have and, aga
15 you to the Dunn application, which is the
16 property directly adjacent and to the south,
17 which has all of the data in it, but I can
18 certainly photocopy and submit a packet,
19 again, to the Board and put it into your file.
20 It was a very extensive -- the Dunn
21 application had all of the properties and the
22 lot coverages, which were in most cases over
23 25~ lot coverage. The Dunn application
24 received 25~ lot coverage. So we were dealing
25 with lot coverage issues, which again all of
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1 the properties in this area have routinely
2 received lot coverage because of the small
3 nature of the properties. And, too, the
9 setback from Fay Court, again, that was an
5 average setback of 9 feet. So we've met the
6 average setback and some. We've pushed it a
7 foot beyond the 9 feet to 10.
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We would appreciate
9 you doing that. Could you make us six copies?
10 MS. MOORS: I could, certainly. It is a
11 tremendously large packet.
12 MEMBER KOWALSKI: Or reference it.
13 MS. MOORS: Yes, reference.
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MEMBER WEISMA
15 Dunn --
16 MS. MOORS: Oh, wonderful.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- that was in February.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't have -- I'm
19 not positive that we absolutely need the
20 entire application. What we need basically,
21 is the survey --
22 MS. MOORS: That is not a problem.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- Notice of
29 Disapproval and those particular things that
25 have caused --
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• 1 MS. MOORE: The basis.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- were the
3 contributing factors in your particular
9 opinion.
5 MS. MOORE: That's fine. I mean, my
6 reluctance is I did give you probably a 25-40
7 I don't know it was a tremendously large
8 packet. Yes, it was about this big of all the
9 properties in the area with the lot coverages
10 of those properties. So, for the sake of my
11 copier, if I could avoid giving you six, but
12 if you want six I will certainly give that to
13 you.
• t file on
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BOARD ASST.: It
15 Marjorie Dunn and it's with the original, but
16 it's scanned and over in archives. So we
17 don't have it, but we can retrieve the file if
18 the Board prefers to do that.
19 MS. MOORE: I will --
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: You can use the copy
21 that I brought in.
22 MS. MOORE: Okay, with respect to that
23 packet --
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: I will donate it back --
25 MS. MOORS: Donate it back so it's not --
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. 1 that's fine. Okay.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll take five
3 then. Four or five.
4 MS. MOORE: You want five?
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't need a copy.
MS. MOORE: Four.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll take four.
g MS. MOORE: Any others?
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll take your
10 copy from the --
11 MS. MOORE: I will give you one full
12 copy. Very good. I can do that. Okay,
13 that's not a problem.
• our
this is
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRI
15 file. Would you like to address the issue?
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes. I would just like
17 if you could just, or maybe we have it in our
18 file, the Dunn decision. I think that's all I
19 really need to see.
20 MS. MOORE: Oh, that's fine.
21 MEMBER DINIZIO: Because that enlarges
22 the application.
23 MS. MOORE: Yes.
2q MEMBER DINIZIO: So if that's not in our
25 file, I didn't see it in our packages, so you
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 know it's probably in our file. The file is
2 quite big.
3 MS. MOORE: Into the Mazur file?
q MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
5 MS. MOORE: I don't know that I --
6 BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, Jim I'm sorry.
7 MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm sorry. Yes, I would
8 like to get from Pat just the decision on
9 Dunn.
10 MS. MOORE: I will -- I can prepare --
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't need the maps,
12 don't need to have any of the --
13 MS. MOORE: I'm going to give you the
19 whole packet, if you'd like, and you can take
15 -- I can give you a second copy of just the
16 decision or --
17 MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. Just the one --
18 MS. MOORS: Just the one packet and you -
19 -
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: I thought that it was in
21 our file already.
22 BOARD ASST.: It is in the Dunn file,
23 yes.
24 MS. MOORS: Okay, I referred to it, but I
25 don't know that I recopied it not knowing
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. 1 exactly initially by submitting it I'd have to
2 give you eight or seven packets of a
3 tremendously large file.
q MEMBER SIMON: I think we're saying -- I
5 think what Mr. Dinizio is saying is since you
6 are introducing evidence based on the Mazur
-7 (sic) file, but you're not including that in
g the present file, then you believe that is a
g gap in the Mazur file. That's all. We're not
10 asking for part of the Mazur file, we're just
11 asking for a complete statement in the
12 submitted materials that your argument is
13 based on.
lq MS. MOORE: Yes. I will supply you a
15 complete -- what I feel is relevant from the
16 Dunn file, which will consist of the exhibits
17 that I gave you, the decision, and I think the
lg average setback map that Nate Corbin had
19 prepared for us, which showed the setbacks
2p from Fay court that were at 9 feet or my
21 memory is that they were at 9 feet. So I will
22 give that to you and I think it's relevant
23 with respect to this neighbor's application.
2q MEMBER DINIZIO: Pretty much I agree with
25 your reasons for the variance and quite
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. 1 honestly they'll probably show up in my
2 writing of the decision.
3 MS. MOORE: Oh, that's good.
q MEMBER DINIZIO: I understand that the
5 street is constricted by the size of the lot
6 and FEMA does have a big say in just what you
7 can do down there. It seems to me like a
g small, relatively small deck is not out of the
g question. That's all I have.
10 MS. MOORE: Okay, Thank you.
11 MEMBER SIMON: I'm jumping the gun one
12 second and reading into the record the
13 difference between the two lots.
14 This lot, as per survey, is approximately
15 135 feet wide where the Dunn application was
16 100 feet wide. Okay. So apart from comparing
17 decisions, which we very rarely ever do on the
lg record, you know you got 35 more feet here
lg anyway. So it's understandable that the Board
20 in the current decision may have gone a little
21 bit farther with the lot coverage. Okay? And
22 that's just my opinion and that's the only
23 opinion I'll leave, at this point, and I'll
2q switch it over to Ruth OLIVA.
25 MEMBER OLIVA: Pat, it does seem a bit
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• 1 large. You know, you could reduce the lot
2 coverage a little bit if you would take a
3 little of that off.
4 MS. MOORE: I did -- I looked at that and
5 I asked where we could cut, if we could cut
6 anywhere, and we have 11 feet. The posts, if
7 you look at the construction of it, I think if
8 we were to reduce the width of it from 11 to
9 10, I think that the -- the area that is very
10 important is the northerly portion. We do
11 want to have usable space and 11 feet is the
12 design just to make it more usable and it is
13 somewhat tapered, but if we squared it off and
which is about a
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15 foot, it would -- you'd have the post and then
16 you've have a foot over the posts for
17 construction purposes. So that essentially
18 makes it a 10-foot deck taking it from where
19 it says 31.4 the measurement out to the end of
20 it. That's the area that I'm talking about.
21 If you were to take a foot off of it, that
22 could -- I mean that's a significant cutback
23 and it would mean that our setback from Fay
24 Court would be 11 feet rather than 10.
25 Certainly that's not -- that's an
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 29, 2008
• 1 acceptable alternative that I would propose to
2 you.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You will submit
9 your lot coverage based upon that in your
5 letter when you submit the other?
g MS. MOORS: Yes.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: You know the wider part
8 there at 26 feet to the house, that's big.
g MS. MOORS: Well, but keep in mind that
10 that is the only yard. If you take a look at
11 the way that this property is laid out, that
12 is -- this becomes the usable outdoor space.
13 So I think it was -- there is a doorway, if I
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15 MEMBER OLIVA: There's a stairway going
16 down.
17 MS. MOORS: Yeah, the stairway goes down.
lg MEMBER OLIVA: And then there's an X
19 there, I would assume that's a window and
20 another stair on the (inaudible) side to go
21 down.
22 MS. MOORS: Right, well there's two if
23 you look at the --
29 MEMBER OLIVA: Where is the entrance into
25 the house?
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. 1 MS. MOORS: Yeah, there are two entrances
2 on the (inaudible) drawing here (inaudible)
3 there is (inaudible) there is a doorway here
q (inaudible) the house that gives access to the
5 back, which is the area that I was talking
6 about is (inaudible) or the structural
7 elements are right at that point. So if you
8 were to cut a foot back and you do a one-foot
9 overhang (inaudible). The area over to here
10 to the (inaudible).
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: North side.
12 MS. MOORS: North side, thank you.
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Or northwest.
lq MS. MOORS: Northwest side is where the
15 large living area is very narrow and it also
16 has stairs down and also it has stairs
17 (inaudible) access to the deck from that side
18 of the house. Here's the house.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Yup.
20 MS. MOORS: There's a door there.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: There's a door there.
22 Okay.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's a total of three
24 doors going from the house out to the proposed
25 deck.
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1 MS. MOORE: Okay. Thank you. You read
2 the plans better than I do. I see two.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: I have actually just two
9 questions, Pat. Knowing that the house was
5 going to be raised in elevation and it was
6 supposed to be done when we provided the
7 previous variance, why, given the fact that
8 you do have very limited outdoor space, why
9 didn't the deck become a part of that
10 application?
11 MS. MOORE: I don't know. I asked that
12 because it would seem to me it would save a
13 step if we had done it all at once, but they
wanted to do
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15 Whether it was going to be a patio, it was
16 going to be pavers or decking and they really
17 wanted to get a feel of what the house looked
18 like in its finished form before they really
19 focused on what would be the best material and
20 the best design for the deck. So it seemed --
21 I mean, I did suggest it for the matter of
22 efficiency and expense because obviously going
23 through this process twice -- you know?
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: My other question was
25 you can certainly get rid of the problem of
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. 1 lot coverage if you did do something at grade.
2 MS. MOORS: Well, but the only problem --
3 yeah, the problem with that is that you're
4 going outside of -- if I remember there're
5 French doors in the back. You would have to
go from the French door to a set of steps down
7 to --
g MEMBER WEISMAN: There are several steps
9 down.
10 MS. MOORS: Yes, many steps down because
11 you're at 10-foot elevation. So you'd be
12 significantly cutting into the backyard with
13 the steps because of the angle of safe
14 passageway up stairs and then you'd step down
15 to a patio that it just would just change the
16 whole character of the house and the feel.
17 They just feel -- they think that this decking
18 would be an attractive addition to the house.
19 The patio may detract from the look of the
20 house. So it was a matter of --
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not disagreeing with
22 that. I wanted it for the record.
23 MS. MOORS: That's fine.
2q MEMBER WEISMAN: But you had in fact
25 considered it and you've now explained why
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• 1 this would not be preferable option, but that
2 is an alternative.
3 MS. MOORS: True.
q MEMBER WEISMAN: So I just wanted it on
5 the record. I personally would not want to be
g going up and down these steps all the time out
7 of the door, it's more hazardous for one
8 thing, but I --
g MS. MOORS: Yes and I would point out
10 that they are -- they're not -- certainly
11 they're not old. I don't want to imply that
12 they are probably --
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Middle age?
. 14 MS. MOORS: Later middle age, well yeah,
15 middle age now of 100, a little over middle
16 age. I know that this is ultimately their, I
17 want to say their retirement home, I think
18 that they're still working or the husband is
19 still working, so I think that they've
20 designed it in such a way that the living
21 space is first floor and accessibility are
22 issues that they wanted to keep in mind.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, no further
24 questions.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael?
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• 1 MEMBER SIMON: I would like to follow up
2 some of Leslie's questions concerning the
3 planning and the arranging and frankly the
4 history of this particular application or set
5 of applications on Camp Mineola Road. The --
6 this is, as you know, the third variance
7 application we've had for this particular
8 property. In between was the Dunn
9 application, which you had presented.
10 MS. MOORE: Yes.
11 MEMBER SIMON: And argued forcefully with
12 a lot of additional documentation, probably
13 which was unnecessary because it was just
• made a very
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short answers or
15 strong argument for the increase in the lot
16 coverage because of the circumstances.
17 Now, many people believe that we've
18 viewed each application as it looks although
19 precedent is obviously relevant, and you seem
20 to be leaning on the Dunn precedent, which you
21 managed to persuade the Board was justifiable
22 as part of the reason for increasing the lot
23 coverage on this particular lot and the affect
24 of this overall is that we begin to increase
25 lot coverages in the entire neighborhood. Not
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• 1 necessarily by you or some other person saying
2 look we managed to allow an additional
3 structure with lot coverage here. Now we did
4 here because of that and so on.
5 MS. MOORS: No, no. I would correct you
g on that. The Dunn application, what I
7 discovered in researching on the Dunn
8 application is that the neighborhood exceeded
g 25~ in lot coverage, routinely. Almost every
10 home, some that had gotten -- because it was
11 prior to the Wahl (sic) decision had been able
12 to rebuild existing footprints or existing
13 structures, whether they were cottages or
. 14 sheds or the combination of such, to the point
15 where if you went to each of the properties,
16 taking the property card or the survey
17 whatever evidence I could find in the Town's
18 records, and tried to calculate the lot
19 coverage I found that the character of the
2p neighborhood already exceeded the 25g lot
21 coverage. So when we were taking the
22 application of Dunn, which was post Wahl,
23 because that brought the application in, even
29 though it was a second, it was a
25 reconstruction over the existing footprint, it
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i 1 pointed out that aside from Wahl you had a
2 community that was already developed with
3 respect to the lot coverage and that's --
4 that's the message that I'm trying to pass on
5 to this one, which is you appropriately and
6 correctly granted the lot coverage that met
7 the character of the neighborhood that had
8 already been established. So I was providing
9 you with the evidence of all the other homes
10 to support the Dunn and equally I'm saying
11 that it similarly supports this application.
12 I would also point out the history here
13 is that they started off by trying to
14 reconstruct their existing house, which I
15 believe was the same, as I recall, the same
16 footprint, but what happened is that their
17 renovations all of a sudden became over the
18 50°s mark and the Building Department, after
19 the construction, the plans, everything had
20 already been submitted, the Building
21 Department said wait. We need you to bring
22 the foundation into conformity with FEMA
23 because I remember being brought in at that
29 point. They already had a building permit,
25 they already started, but they ended up having
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1 to go back down to the foundation to raise the
2 foundation to bring it up to FEMA standards.
3 So that there were multiple variances, but
4 not, you know, the second variance really was
5 not intended. It kind of got brought on to
6 them because all of a sudden the FEMA
7 regulations kicked in and that's, you know,
8 ultimately that's the variance that was
9 approved.
10 Again, Wahl kicked in with setbacks from
11 all of the three yards because the front yard
12 was conforming, but you had two other front
13 yards that required variances. So it was
• 14 front yard setbacks and again the -- over the
15 existing structure already met the 20s lot
16 coverage. So as it was already developed, the
17 property, it exceeded the lot coverage. So
18 any decking here exceeds the lot coverage and
19 I'm again analogizing the character of the
20 community is such that it exceeds 25~.
21 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, this is beautiful,
22 not altogether surprising. We anticipate
23 these considerations as well.
24 MS. MOORE: Exactly.
25 MEMBER SIMON: The problem that I am
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. 1 concerned with is incrementalism where
2 incrementalism is used as the justification or
3 segmented. This is not the first or the fifth
4 or the tenth time we've had to ask the
5 question of why when someone has a building
6 permit they want to add something like a
7 swimming pool or a deck onto this and the
8 answer is always, well we didn't know we
9 wanted it. Perhaps, it's a very common --
10 it's such a common explanation that it
11 probably doesn't carry a whole lot of weight.
12 So one question is whether it weighs on
13 the previous determination. I think there may
• me of us in
iff
14 erence among so
be a d
15 interpretation of the code. We know the part
16 of the code which allows you to do an average
17 of the houses within 300 feet when you are
18 exceeding the -- when you are --
19 MS. MOORE: Front yard setback.
20 MEMBER SIMON: The yard setback, right, I
21 was interested that you used the word to be in
22 conformity or in compliance with this quasi
23 legal standard of the other neighborhood
24 almost as though it's an opportunity or an
25 obligation to try and make sure that you
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. 1 conform just as much as anybody else does even
2 though they're non-conforming. So what I'm
3 saying is those are good reasons for applying
4 it, they're not necessarily good reasons for
5 failing to review the thing on the merit of
6 the application and the history of the
7 application.
8 MS. MOORE: Okay.
g MEMBER SIMON: We could always
10 distinguish this lot is wider than the -- than
11 the Dunn lot.
12 MS. MOORE: Right.
13 MEMBER SIMON: It is -- the interest in
t d
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reducing the size of t
15 somewhat mitigate the concern, at least my
16 concern on this, but I am frankly worried
17 about increasing incrementalism all the way
18 through the Town and people are doing --
19 people tend to support their neighbors. Camp
20 Mineola is a very good case of this down by
21 the water, Terry Road and so on. So I just --
22 I was a little bit surprised to see another
23 application on this particular property and we
24 have to convince ourselves that this wasn't
25 simply driven by your success in the Dunn
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i 1 case.
2 MS. MOORE: No, no. No. You know, the
3 question you raised about the history here
4 brings to mind why the deck wasn't dealt with
5 during the previous variance and I'm starting
6 to remember a little bit about how I got
7 brought in. Remember the construction had
8 started. This was all of a sudden Wahl
9 kicking in and everybody was -- I don't want
10 to say panicked -- but you're in the midst of
11 construction, you don't want to complicate
12 things, you just want the variance that allows
13 you to continue your construction. So that
• th
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variance was, again, deal
15 compliance with FEMA and bringing the house to
16 conformity. So --
17 MEMBER SIMON: Didn't Wahl kick in after
18 -- was Wahl decided after this project was
19 started?
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
21 MS. MOORE: No, no.
22 MEMBER SIMON: So it didn't kick in.
23 MS. MOORE: No, no. It -- I'm sorry, I'm
24 using maybe less than precise language. The
25 house renovation was started based on a set of
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M 1 plans that the Building Department, at the
2 time, did not realize triggered FEMA
3 compliance. So they began --
4 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
5 MS. MOORE: For whatever reason, they
6 just began realized that that was a problem --
7 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
g MS. MOORE: -- and at that point we came
g in to you to seek the variance to allow us to
10 bring the house into conformity with FEMA and
11 that's -- that was that variance step. It was
12 a technical step enabling them to continue
13 with their plans to construct.
14 MEMBER SIMON: Not (inaudible) as far as
15 we were concerned.
16 MS. MOORE: You know, unfortunately, no
17 variance is ever guaranteed and people are
18 panicking because all -- everything all the
19 construction, everything, the plans are drawn
20 and everything stopped.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just have the
22 floor one minute?
23 MS. MOORE: Sure.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: In about five
25 minutes we're going to have to vacate the
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courtroom. So if there's any possibility of
wrapping up this hearing, I would appreciate
it.
MEMBER SIMON:
questions.
I have no further
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Is there
anyone in the audience who would like to speak
for or against this application? This is down
in Camp Mineola in Mattituck. Seeing no hands
MS. MOORE: I would just say that
generally I've gotten very positive feedback
from the neighbors. Everybody is very
supportive in this neighborhood. They all
recognize that it enhances every time that a
house is improved it does enhance the
neighborhood and so there has always been a
real camaraderie in this neighborhood that
impresses me, given the fact that I deal with
so many neighborhoods in town, and they are
very supportive of this application.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I will say this,
the stone work on this house is unprecedented
in the front, and gives you an unbelievable
appearance, which really has a tremendous
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• 1 impact when you drive by the property, there's
2 no question about it.
3 Hearing no further comments I make a
9 motion closing the hearing and reserve
5 decision.
6 MS. MOORS: Okay, subject to getting you
7 -- yes, I will get a copy of that to you
8 within the next couple of days. Okay, thank
9 you.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: All in favor?
11 BOARD: Aye.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Against?
13 We need a resolution to adjourn.
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19 o move
MEMBER WEI
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15 MEMBER SIMON: Second.
16 (See minutes for the Resolution.)
18 HEARING #6179 - Stein Family Trust
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
20 "Request for variances under Sections
21 280" pardon me?
22 BOARD ASST.: The name of the applicant?
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The name is Stein
24 Family Trust.
25 BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
. 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
2 "280-15, 280-124B, based on Building
3 Inspector's May 7, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
4 concerning (a) proposed additions and
5 alterations to the existing single-family
6 dwelling with a new front yard setback at less
7 than the code-required 35 feet, (b) an
8 addition to the existing accessory garage
9 which is required to be in the rear yard, (c)
10 all new construction will exceed the code
11 requirement of 20°s maximum lot coverage.
12 Location: 2535 Cedar Lane, East Marion; CTM
13 37-4-10."
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MEMBER OLIVA:
15 tell us, Ray?
16 MR. NEMCHICK: Hi, Ray Nemchick, Nemchick
17 Silverman Architects, Deer Foot Path in
18 Cutchogue.
19 I'm here representing the Stein Family
20 and I just want to go through the reasons for
21 the variance and the thought behind it as we
22 designed the property.
23 MEMBER OLIVA: Could we just, before we
24 get started --
25 MR. NEMCHICK: Sure.
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• 1 MEMBER OLIVA: What is the lot coverage
2 now?
3 MR. NEMCHICK: Right now there's a
4 correction I need to make on the drawings.
5 Right now it's 23% lot coverage.
6 MEMBER OLIVA: 23 and you're going up
7 through 26.8?
8 MR. NEMCHICK: 28.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: 28, okay.
10 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, so we have roughly a
11 4.8 or a 5% increase in lot coverage.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
13 MR. NEMCHICK: I want to point out that
k
14 now,
the majority of that lot coverage, you
15 not the majority but a greater portion, are
16 decking. The deck that exists there right now
17 is 865 square feet and then the 201 square
18 feet of the 747 square feet that we're going
19 for of proposed additions is front porch. So
20 we're really only talking about a net add of a
21 little over 500 square feet of livable floor
22 space, which is in addition to 1776. So the
23 actual livable floor space that we're looking
24 to put in here is 2400 from 1776, which is
25 underneath, way underneath, the maximum lot
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1 coverage as far as that goes.
2 We also want to talk about the idea of
3 keeping this a single story. You know, in
4 that neighborhood I think that the character
5 of the neighborhood has always been kind of
6 camp character and it was obviously a three-
? seasons neighborhood, at one point, when it
8 was constructed. A lot of the houses have
9 gone to two stories, two and a half stories,
10 and, you know, very large homes and their
11 mentality is to try and keep this kind of, you
12 know, campy atmosphere and that's why we went
13 to an Arts and Crafts style of the house,
19 which actually matches the parent's house just
15 to the south or just to the east, I believe.
16 So, you know, those kind of things are
17 what they're trying to be particularly
18 sensitive to as well as the setbacks. I think
19 just about every lot in this neighborhood
20 violates the 35-foot front yard setback. The
21 porch I would note is at 7-1/2 feet as I
22 proposed it. The existing house, right now,
23 is at 10.2 feet off of the setback or off of
24 the property line. Not off the road,
25 obviously, the road extends further than that
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1 cause it's a very small road. It's pretty
2 much like a one-lane road.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Driveway.
9 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah. Now, the actual
5 porch or the actual livable floor space on the
6 house wouldn't exceed that 10.2 to the
7 existing. Okay? So I just wanted to point
8 that out as well.
9 MEMBER OLIVA: The garage you're going to
10 add-on or demolish the garage the garage
11 that's there, which is a two-car garage?
12 MR. NEMCHICK: Exactly. That's the other
13 part about this. Right now it's a two-car
14 garage. We won't affect the footprint. I'm
15 just looking to increase their storage area
16 above it.
17 MEMBER OLIVA: Makinq it a two story.
18 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, I mean, basically 1-
19 1/2 story, but it's going to 20 feet to the
20 ridge is what they wanted me to propose.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: Just with electric?
22 MR. NEMCHICK: Just with electric and
23 they have -- they actually wanted to put in a
24 half-bath inside that garage for when they
25 come back from the boat. I mean, they have a
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. 1 dock right there and they have their boat so
2 they wanted to be able to wash off and those
3 kind of things before they enter the house.
4 MEMBER DINIZIO: What about run-off on
5 that garage?
6 MEMBER OLIVA: (Inaudible) run-off. I
7 noticed when I was down there there's a lot of
8 pipes coming out from that wall and going
9 down. I see a drain down there. Now is that
10 a dry well underneath that drain?
11 MR. NEMCHICK: There's a dry well in the
12 existing concrete walk and you can see it says
13 drain on the plan kind of right over what the
• i
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proposed addit
on
15 you look straight through that, just above
16 where it says AC unit that is a dry well that
17 exists there. So the run-off is contained as
18 far as I can see.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I ask a
20 question?
21 MR. NEMCHICK: Sure.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: What is the purpose
23 of that footing where the drain is?
24 MR. NEMCHICK: The purpose of the
25 filling?
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1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The footing, why?
2 MR. NEMCHICK: Oh, it's actually the
3 first story, but you know as you walk in
4 there's an access to the basement. It's a
5 walk-out basement there. So I'm not proposing
6 to -- the only affect of the footing is the
7 one in the corner there. That's the only lot
8 coverage of the actual footprint that we'd be
9 maintaining. This is going to cantilever over
10 the top -- not cantilever, it's going to come
11 over that entrance. So the entrance of the
12 basement will still be existing, if you look
13 on the elevations, you'll see that.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So that's a full
15 addition over that?
16 MR. NEMCHICK: Correct.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mirroring the house
18 in some way and cutting into the house in some
19 way.
2p MR. NEMCHICK: Um-hmm.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Dropping a roof
22 underneath the existing house?
23 MR. NEMCHICK: No, it's extending the
29 existing roof plan.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Extending it.
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• 1 MR. NEMCHICK: Um-hmm.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
3 MEMBER OLIVA: To cut down the lot
4 coverage, could you reduce the area of the
5 front porch?
6 MR. NEMCHICK: We could, absolutely. I
7 mean, I could affectively bring in the front
8 porch or curve it so that, you know, I wasn't
9 projecting more than that 10 feet. I would
10 note that the existing porch right now and the
11 dashed line is at 10.3. So I mean that's, you
12 know, I could cut off the corner there so that
13 didn't return around the corner, if that
ith th
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16 MEMBER OLIVA: Just try and get the lot
17 coverage down a little bit cause it's --
18 MR. NEMCHICK: I have a question. I
19 mean, lot coverage is usually defined as the
20 actual coverage that you hit the lot. Now, I
21 know decks obviously are --
22 MEMBER OLIVA: They are included.
23 MR. NEMCHICK: Say again?
24 MEMBER OLIVA: I said decks are included
25 in lot coverage.
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. 1 MR. NEMCHICK: Absolutely, but what I
2 would ask is for a ruling on what we just
3 talked about, the addition where I'm only
4 putting a 1 foot by 1 foot pier that comes
5 down that actually sits on the lot and you
6 have access underneath it. Would we consider
7 that lot coverage or can I reduce that?
g MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
9 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah? Okay.
10 MEMBER DINIZIO: No, it is considered lot
11 coverage, not just pier, the deck.
12 MR. NEMCHICK: Okay. Understood, I just
13 wanted to ask the question.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: I mean they're small lots
15 there, Ray --
16 MR. NEMCHICK: I agree. I just wanted it
17 clarified.
18 MEMBER OLIVA: (Inaudible) I'm in Orient,
19 so I --
20 MR. NEMCHICK: They are small lots.
21 MEMBER OLIVA: You mean -- it's very
22 nice. It's a very nice location and what have
23 you, and it's just about wall to wall coverage
24 now.
25 MR. NEMCHICK: It is.
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1 MEMBER OLIVA: It is. I mean they all
2 are down there.
3 MR. NEMCHICK: Exactly and it's not out
4 of character.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: No, not at all. Not at
6 all. It's just we're trying to keep it down
7 as much as possible.
8 MR. NEMCHICK: Okay. Yeah, I can reduce
9 it. I'll take it down as much as I can with
10 the porch. You know, I would rather keep the
11 livable floor area the same to give the family
12 the room they have newborns and stuff like
13 that, not that that's a concern, but I'm just
19 trying to keep the neighborhood as scale-wise
15 as amenable as possible. That's why I don't
16 really want to go two stories with them if I
17 can help it.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I think I'm next.
19 I just want to mention two things. The issue
20 with the front porch, I, for some strange
21 reason -- how far is this elevated out of the
22 ground?
23 MR. NEMCHICK: It's elevated quite a bit.
24 It's about five feet out of the ground. We
25 have a good walk-up condition into that space.
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So you know I think it actually may be four
feet. You're asking what the existing
elevation is of the first floor or what?
MEMBER OLIVA: Yeah.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Well the point, let
me just backtrack for a second. Is there any
reason why the entire part that encompasses
the chimney and that whole enclosure on three
sides couldn't be done in pavers, which would
not be lot coverage bringing that up to a
ground level?
MR. NEMCHICK: In front of the chimney?
MEMBER DINIZIO: That enclosure.
MR. NEMCHICK: That's livable floor
space. That's the bedroom.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's livable
floor space that is correct. Okay, what is
the purpose of that livable floor space?
MR. NEMCHICK: It's a bedroom.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a bedroom.
MR. NEMCHICK: Yup.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So there's a
bedroom in front of the house?
MR. NEMCHICK: Correct. There is one
existing as well.
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CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is that going to be
a flat-roof situation or will that be --
MR. NEMCHICK: No, it's a -- if you look
on the elevation, it's a reverse gable coming
out of the (inaudible). Yeah.
MEMBER OLIVA: And there'll be leaders
and gutters all going into drywells as
landward as possible?
MR. NEMCHICK: Absolutely. We're going
to contain the run-off as much as -- yeah,
absolutely all run-off will be contained as
landward as possible towards the street, if we
can.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I wasn't aware of
that for some reason. Oh, it's because it's
the same crosshatch, that's the reason why.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: So let me go back
to the new covered porch and you said you
could do what with the new covered porch
adjacent?
MEMBER OLIVA: The front.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The front porch and
you said you --
MEMBER OLIVA:
around a little bit.
You could (inaudible) it
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1 MR. NEMCHICK: If it helps, I can reduce
2 the -- take away the wraparound effect so that
3 it just goes right into the house. That'll
4 reduce the obvious encroachment on setbacks
5 and also reduce the lot coverage cause it's
6 really, I mean, that wraparound effect is more
7 to get a glimpse of the water again and to
8 have, you know, a little softening of the
g eaves and a softening of the actual front of
10 the house to get better curb appeal, but it
11 won't retract from, you know, the house itself
12 if I just square that off.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. I could see
I
t was there
t th
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a
where the elevation trac
15 just had that covered up and I forgot. When I
16 looked at it it was funny. Alright, let's go
17 on to Leslie.
lg MEMBER WEISMAN: Very nice, Ray, it's
19 going to improve the appearance of that house
20 and neighborhood immensely. The only concern
21 that I have, fundamentally, is not with the
22 livable space, but with that porch. The
23 setback, maintaining the existing setback is
24 to me a reasonable thing to request because
25 it's practically in the road and to bring the
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1 porch out to 10 feet and there's a set of
2 steps. So it's further, closer to the road in
3 the way you've designed. As long as you can
4 maintain that existing 10-foot setback and
5 still provide access on the front elevation --
6 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- I don't think will
8 compromise the elevation dramatically. Then
9 that seems a reasonable thing to do and it
10 will also reduce some -- and 28.7$ I believe
11 is what you --
12 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, I believe it is a
13 little over 28.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: So, if we can get that
15 down somewhat, I do appreciate very much the
16 effort to keep this at a story and a half
17 house.
18 MR. NEMCHICK: Okay.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's so in your face
20 cause it's right at the road and to have a two
21 story --
22 MR. NEMCHICK: It is. It would have --
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: To have a two story
24 right there would have been overbearing. So I
25 think that would be a reasonable alternative
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1 to me.
2 MR. NEMCHICK: Okay, I have no issues.
3 MEMBER SIMON: I don't have questions or
4 at least not critical questions. There --
5 just a general statement is that regarding the
6 code and the strict rules about -- the rules,
7 how strict they are about lot coverage and so
g forth. This seems to me to be on the right
g side of some of these delicate disputes. We
10 have people, applicants, who suggest that the
11 code is just simply a list of gentle
12 suggestions to be pressed as far as possible
13 out of the text as possible. On the other
• 14 hand, what we're here to do is, I think, is to
15 try to see that when there are circumstances
16 in the lot, in the neighborhood and so forth
17 and the strict rules of the code do not serve
lg the very best purpose, some of which are
lg mandated by the code and some not, this is a
20 case where an imaginative way of moving the
21 things around, even if it exceeds one of the
22 rules, it's probably a good thing.
23 As you point out, legally you could go to
24 two stories. There's nothing in the code that
25 says that that's not what to do, but as far as
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. 1 the impact on the neighborhood that would be
2 less attractive, less desirable, as far as I'm
3 able to see, than trying to do the sort of
4 thing you are doing. Yes, I do approve of the
5 idea of the efforts to try to square off the
6 porch a little bit and cut down the lot
7 coverage a little bit, but I think it's
g promising and it's a work in progress, at this
g point as I understand.
10 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, absolutely.
11 MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.
12 MEMBER DINIZIO: I'd just like to clarify
13 a statement that Mr. Simon said because you
14 would be before us if you want a second story
15 on this house.
16 MEMBER SIMON: Correct.
17 MR. NEMCHICK: You know, Wahl would kick
18 me into you. Absolutely.
lg MEMBER SIMON: Right.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: So I guess that's not
21 the --
22 MR. NEMCHICK: But it wouldn't kick me in
23 lot coverage wise.
24 MEMBER DINIZIO: No, certainly not. Not
25 unless you needed to get a stairway to the
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1 second story or something.
2 MR. NEMCHICK: Right.
3 MEMBER DINIZIO: But nonetheless, I mean,
4 anything that's done to this house --
5 MR. NEMCHICK: It's inside of a setback.
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: -- to increase the size
7 is going to call for a variance, up or down or
8 out.
g MEMBER SIMMONS: I stand corrected.
10 Thank you, Jim.
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: That's all I had.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, we'll see
13 what develops. Thank you, Ray.
14 MR. NEMCHICK: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: But at the end of
16 this rainbow you are going to give us the
17 reduction of lot coverage for those areas that
18 you just discussed so that we know exactly
19 what that maximum is on a proposed basis.
20 MR. NEMCHICK: Yeah, by the end of the
21 day Monday, I'll submit to the Board all the
22 revisions that they discussed.
23 MEMBER OLIVA: I have to write it.
29 MR. NEMCHICK: Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And we want to see
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. 1 under LWRP what you're doing with the drainage
2 from the garage, what dry well it's going into
3 and so on and so forth.
q MR. NEMCHICK: Okay.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And I thank you.
6 Don't leave though because we'll see what
7 develops.
g Is there anybody in the audience who
9 would like to speak on behalf of this
10 application, 6179?
11 Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
12 closing the hearing pending the receipt of the
13 information requested from the architect.
. nd
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MEMBER WEI
15 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
17 HEARING #6185 - William Lutkowski
lg MEMBER SIMON: Oh, here it is. I have
19 it. I'm sorry.
20 "Request for a Variance under Section
21 280-124 (setback schedule), based on the
22 Building Inspector's April 18, 2008 Notice of
23 Disapproval concerning a proposed new dwelling
24 (after demolition of the existing dwelling),
25 proposed with front yard setback(s) at less
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. 1 than 35 feet, in fact 19.3 feet. Location of
2 Property: 595 Pine Avenue and Birch Avenue,
3 Southold; CTM 77-2-25."
4 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Good morning. The name
5 is William Lutkowski at 595 Pine Avenue.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, did you
7 want to ask questions of the --
g MEMBER SIMON: I would like to have you
9 speak to some of the points which are covered
10 in the application regarding the particular
11 setbacks from Pine Avenue or Pine Street.
12 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Yeah, I tried to make it
13 as detailed as possible in the application,
14 but my plan is -- my intention is to build my
15 retirement home. The existing house is 20
16 feet -- 24 feet off of Pine Avenue, that's the
17 -- we designed the new house to satisfy all of
18 the new building code setbacks that went into
19 place in 1957 for the 35 feet. All three
20 sides are in compliance except for the one
21 side on Pine Avenue for two uninhabitable
22 areas, my handicap ramp and part of my garage
23 that I have no intentions of making habitable.
29 The existing house, the existing
25 footprint that my father built 60 years ago it
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• 1 was only 24 feet off of Pine Avenue. Back
2 then the covenant on the property was 35 --
3 Oliver Construction he had the -- regular
4 plots had to be 35 feet. Front yards had to
5 be 35 feet, except a corner piece of property,
6 which required 20 feet. So back then when he
7 built the house in '47, 1947, it was in
8 compliance until the Building Department came
g -- was established in 1957 and now with the
10 new code, the 35 feet, it's out of compliance.
11 MEMBER SIMON: Riqht, you are suggesting
12 that one of the reasons for taking this
13 seriously is that this is oddly a case where
. 19 the older rule was actually less strict than
15 the current rule -- No, actually more strict.
16 It was more strict that you're arguing that
17 had it been built at 20 feet then it would
18 have been in conformity then and even though
lg it had been in non-conformity now, but you're
20 suggesting that the original plan would --
21 could have been -- which could have been done
22 then, is going to be done now when you put it
23 closer to Pine Avenue, which would be
24 legitimate.
25 This is an argument in favor of what
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• 1 you're saying. Okay.
2 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Okay, cause I don't
3 follow you.
4 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, that the current
5 home doesn't make exceptions for a corner lot.
6 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Okay. I follow you.
7 MEMBER SIMON: And you're asking, you
8 know, among other things, to make the
9 exception for the corner lot such as was
10 previously recognized by the earlier company.
11 Is that your position, to code?
12 MR. LUTKOWSKI: I believe so. I'm trying
13 to put up the new proposed house in line, in
• 14 plane with the existing. Pine Avenue will be
15 out of compliance.
16 MEMBER SIMON: Right.
17 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Is that -- but back then
18 when the house was built it was in compliance.
19 MEMBER SIMON: Right. Right, right.
20 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Okay.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: Primarily it is the
22 handicap ramp and part of the garage on Pine
23 that is not conforming to the 35-foot required
24 setback.
25 MR. LUTKOWSKI: That's --
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN: The house will be very
2 nice when it's done. I want to ask you about
3 -- you are planning to rebuild the retaining
4 wall that's currently on the property?
5 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Whatever it takes to
6 maintain my grade.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes because you're on a
8 slope.
g MR. LUTKOWSKI: Yeah, that my father
10 built. It stood for 60 years.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes.
12 MR. LUTKOWSKI: But that's -- we want to
13 have that -- there's not going to be a
• 14 driveway in the front anymore, except going in
15 and then I want that to be graded down to
16 Birch Avenue and whatever is required. A
17 retaining wall in the front or in the back of
18 the property, whatever the architect or the
19 landscape architect decides that's what I'll,
20 you know, have to do to keep my property from
21 going down into the neighbors'.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: The primary concern has
23 to do with drainage, on-site drainage.
24 (Inaudible) the road (inaudible) property. So
25 I'd be interested with how you're going to
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. 1 approach that --
2 MR. LUTKOWSKI: It would probably only be
3 better. It would probably be better because
4 I'd be retaining it. Right now the way it's
5 been it's been there for 60 years and if you
6 pass by the property it's been naturally
7 draining.
g MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't have any --
9 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Well, if it's required
10 later on so it doesn't washout my wife's
11 garden, then a dry well will be put in to trap
12 the rainwater.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: You do have a proposed -
14 - a proposed driveway with a retaining wall on
15 the site plan.
16 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Well, then I'll have to -
17
lg MEMBER WEISMAN: You'll have to do that,
19 but I don't see any dry wells or --
2p MR. LUTKOWSKI: I don't know what's
21 required yet.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: So that's the main next
23 step, I would think. To just make sure that
24 what you're proposing -- I think the house
25 looks very nice and I think --
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1 MR. LUTKOWSKI: I don't want to wash my
2 property away.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, no of course you
4 wouldn't. I'm not suggesting you would,
5 simply that we will need to know --
6 MR. LUTKOWSKI: I will.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- something about the
8 grading and drainage.
9 MR. LUTKOWSKI: How -- how --
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: Gutters and leaders that
11 will be code. I mean (inaudible) your house.
12 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Of course.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me explain that
• 14 one second, Mr. Lutkowski. Any water run-off
15 as minute as to zero needs to be retained by
16 dry wells and gutters. So a leader, a gutter,
17 down flow into dry wells and you can -- but
18 you need to tell us that cause we need to deal
19 with that under LWRP. Okay, so we need to
20 know that.
21 MR. LUTKOWSKI: I planned on drainage.
22 Yeah, because right now we don't know
23 where the house is going to go. I mean, the
24 house is going here, but if it's approved and
25 the architect or the landscape person says
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1 well you're going to have all this water, yes,
2 I'm going to contain all of my gutters is
3 going to go into a dry well because it has to
4 stay on your property. The only way you could
5 do it is put it into a well.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
~ MR. LUTKOWSKI: Otherwise it's going into
8 the street and then into Goose Creek. So the
g water will be --
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: That was my only
11 concern. I wasn't concerned with setbacks. I
12 think that's fine. The correct of the
13 neighborhood loves diversity in terms of where
. 19 houses are setback from the road, if they're
15 substantial, they're close. You're complying
16 as much as you reasonably can. Non-habitable
17 additions are essentially not complying. The
18 house is (inaudible). So my only concern was
19 because you have such a steep slope and there
20 is such a dilemma with drainage grade that
21 we're aware of it and this Board grant
22 variances such as to understanding how on-site
23 drainage was going to be treated.
2q MR. LUTKOWSKI: A dry well wherever --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, we need to see
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. 1 plans where that's going to go and --
2 MR. LUTKOWSKI: How -- can I do that now?
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Sure.
q MR. LUTKOWSKI: I mean could I say it
5 would have to be in front of the front porch
6 right where the -- right where that retaining
7 wall would be. I mean wouldn't it come from
8 the gutters from the back of the house the
9 gutters will face towards the front of the
10 house and together and then down or the dry
11 well would be in the middle of the driveway,
12 of the proposed driveway of the --
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd have to look at your
• 14 roof. I have to look at your roof.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let him study the
16 roof plan and then come up with a proposal
17 plan. You need to study the roof plan. Any
18 time a roof comes down and there are gutters,
19 and there may be multiple dry wells that are
20 required on this property and we just need to
21 have that in writing from you before we make a
22 decision and we're going to ask you to do that
23 for us next week. Now if you feel that you're
24 not able to do that yourself, have a competent
25 person look at the plan and do that for you.
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• 1 I'm not saying that you're incompetent,
2 I'm making the statement though that --
3 MR. LUTKOWSKI: No.
q CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- if there's
5 something that you're not happy with. I mean
6 yourself, being not happy with doing this.
-7 We're closing the hearing subject to
8 receiving that in writing.
g MR. LUTKOWSKI: Okay.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This is done all
11 the time now across the board. Okay, if it's
12 not the new drainage plan, the new drainage
13 law that we're dealing with, it's LWRP. If
14 you live in a waterfront community you cannot
15 have any water that you know of, and it's
16 clearly stated, running down Pine Avenue and
17 then into Goose Creek. Okay?
lg MR, LUTKOWSKI: Okay, so what you want
19 from me is where dry wells will be placed or
20 one dry well, whatever is adequate. Whatever
21 is required to take the drainage water off my
22 roof.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's the reason
24 why it should really be calculated by an
25 engineer because --
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. 1 MR. LUTKOWSKI: It will be.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- the engineer
3 will be able to determine, based upon the
4 amount of rain or what we refer to as the
5 gross amount, and the minimum amount based
6 upon the storms that we're having that we're
7 experiencing today and have been experiencing.
8 That's just one example. Okay?
g MEMBER DINIZIO: I have no questions.
10 MR. LUTKOWSKI: Okay.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: While you're
12 standing there, we'll ask if anybody in the
13 audience would like to speak on behalf or
14 against this application. Sir, would you use
15 that over there?
16 MR. MCCARTHY: Good morning. Tom
17 McCarthy, I reside at Goose Creek Lane, which
18 is an adjacent neighborhood to Pine Avenue and
19 Goose Bay Estates. My brother, Pat, owns a
20 residence at 1100 Pine Avenue, which is at the
21 base of the hill fronting the water and I'm
22 speaking today as his representative.
23 I think that your conformance with the
24 LWRP and retaining on-site water is a positive
25 benefit because a lot o,f water comes down Pine
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1 Avenue. It's really created a lot of sand, an
2 isthmus, at the bottom of the street, which I
3 think with Bill contributing to keeping his
9 water on-site will certainly help. I've met
5 Bill for the first time, although I've lived
6 there for quite a while and my brother has as
7 well. We like his application and have no
g objection to the setback. I think that the
g architecture of the house is great and I think
10 it'll be a real improvement for the
11 neighborhood.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
13 MR. MCCARTHY: Thank you.
lq CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Is there anybody
15 else who would like to speak?
16 Okay. Seeing no hands, we'll make a
17 motion closing the hearing pending the receipt
18 of that information that we requested from the
lg applicant.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
21 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
23 HEARING #6183 - Vincent and Maureen Papa
2q CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER:
25 "Request for a Variance under Section
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1
2 280-129 based upon the Building Inspector's
3 April 21, 2008 Notice of Disapproval
4 concerning an as-built deck addition to the
5 existing single-family dwelling, which is less
6 than the code-required 50 feet in the rear
7 yard at 75 First Street in Laurel; CTM 126-10-
8 9.5
g Excuse me, let's let these nice people
10 introduce themselves.
11 MR. PAPA: I'm Vincent Papa, this is my
12 wife Maureen.
13 MRS. PAPA: Good morning, I'm Maureen
4 a
Pa
1 .
p
15 MEMBER OLIVA: When was the deck built?
16 MR. PAPA: Two months ago.
17 BOARD ASST.: We're not hearing you on
lg the tape, I'm sorry.
lg MRS. PAPA: Oh, it was built in May.
20 MEMBER OLIVA: It was built in May?
21 MRS. PAPA: Yes.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: And it is how large?
23 MRS. PAPA: About I would say 13 feet in
24 depth and what would be the width?
25 MEMBER OLIVA: It's 13 by 30.
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• 1 MRS. PAPA: 13 by 30.
2 MEMBER OLIVA: With a bay window
3 extending onto the deck?
q MR. PAPA: Two doors.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: Two doors.
MRS. PAPA: Like a French door.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes, so it's a bay
8 overhang.
g MRS. PAPA: Um-hmm.
10 MEMBER OLIVA: And you have 37 feet to
11 the rear yard.
12 MR. PAPA: Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am.
13 MEMBER OLIVA: Why didn't you come in for
• 14 a permit before you built it?
15 MR. PAPA: I have no excuse for that.
16 MEMBER OLIVA: You have no excuse, you
17 just went ahead.
lg MR. PAPA: It wasn't very smart of us.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: When was your house built?
20 MR. PAPA: We just moved in in May. The
21 house was built in March, completed in March.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: You did a nice job on it.
23 MR. PAPA: Thank you.
24 MEMBER OLIVA: I don't have any
25 questions.
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1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I am the gentleman
2 that parks the tan car across the street every
3 morning.
q MR. PAPA: My wife said she recognized
5 you.
y CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I was going to
7 actually going to bother you last weekend, but
8 you took those two sections of fence out so I
9 was able to see the deck. That's the reason
10 why I didn't bother you, okay, cause I think
11 you were having a family gathering or
12 something.
13 MR. PAPA: Yes, we were.
. 14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And there's nothing
15 worse than coming over and doing an inspection
16 during a family gathering. So that's the
17 reason why I didn't. This deck will remain
18 open to the sky?
19 MR. PAPA: Yes.
2p CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's not going to
21 be enclosed except for some railing maybe or
22 something?
23 MEMBER OLIVA: Is that at ground level or
24 how high?
25 MR. PAPA: It's 12 inches off the ground.
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1 MEMBER OLIVA: 12 inches off the ground
2 and what is it made of?
3 MR. PAPA: Uh --
q MRS. PAPA: Mahogany wood.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: Mahogany?
MRS. PAPA: Yeah, I think it's mahogany.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay.
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: And so that's the
9 story from my point of view. I don't have a
10 basic objection to it. We'll go on to
11 Michael.
12 MEMBER SIMON: As I have said a number of
13 times, I think when we review an as-built
which
f thumb
l
14 ,
e o
structure what -- one ru
15 some of us use is, in granting it is to ask
16 whether it would have been approved as such
17 had it been applied for in a timely fashion
18 and in this case I guess the question would be
19 whether we would have granted a 13-foot wide
20 deck or a smaller deck. Could you say why,
21 aside from the fact that it's already built,
22 why a 13-foot, why you feel that 13 feet is
23 necessary to satisfy your --
24 MR. PAPA: We made it as small as we
25 could for the furniture and the --
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 MRS. PAPA: -- barbecue.
2 BOARD ASST.: I'm sorry, we're not
3 getting you on the tape.
9 MRS. PAPA: I think my husband is saying
5 with the area you have some furniture, you
6 have a gas barbecue and that was about as
7 small as we could make it.
8 MEMBER SIMON: You're going to put
9 railings up, I assume, on this deck?
10 MRS. PAPA: No, we don't have to unless
11 we -- unless the Town says they would like it,
12 we would do it.
13 MEMBER SIMON: Alright, I didn't know
14 whether that was part of the plan or not.
15 MRS. PAPA: No, I don't think it is, no.
16 MEMBER OLIVA: So you're really at
17 setback if you didn't have the deck it would
18 be 50 feet, which --
19 MR. PAPA: That's correct.
20 MEMBER OLIVA: -- would be in compliance.
21 MRS. PAPA: Yes. Yes.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: So you're really asking
23 for a variance for that rear yard setback.
24 MRS. PAPA: Yes. The problem for me is
25 to have like as soon as you open the doors and
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. 1 you have steps down, I have some arthritis and
2 it was -- it's like, you know, you walk --
3 even though it's not that high -- it's kind of
4 high for me, I guess.
5 MEMBER SIMON: Right. I think one could
6 very well feel that the argument for there
7 being a deck is fairly plausible. Certainly
8 to have to step down all the way to ground
g level would be an inconvenience and would
10 require railings and so forth, probably. So
11 it is -- but it is again, it's a question of
12 the location and the size of the deck would be
13 the only one that would be at issue as far as
. 14 I'm concerned.
15 MRS. PAPA: Okay.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Your rear yard is
17 completely enclosed except for two evergreens
lg all over you've got fencing all around it's
19 totally private and it's very large. The deck
20 that you built is not as wide as the entire
21 rear elevation of your house.
22 MRS. PAPA: No.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: It's almost at grade,
24 it's just literally 12 inches off the ground
25 and based upon all of those factors of the
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1 neighborhood, privacy back there, and the fact
2 that the principle structure is conforming, I
3 don't really have a problem with the deck as
4 it is.
5 MRS. PAPA: Thank you.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: We certainly don't
7 (inaudible) not that, you know, just a slight
8 elevation off the ground, you just step down
9 one step onto the grass. So I think that
10 there are mitigating factors for granting the
11 variance.
12 MRS. PAPA: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim?
• uestions
N
MBER DINIZIO
14 .
o q
:
ME
15 MEMBER GOENRINGER: Okay, we'll see how
16 it develops here. Just stay there one second.
17 Is there anybody in the audience who'd
18 like to speak for or against this application?
19 Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
20 closing the hearing and reserving decision
21 until later.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
23 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
25 HEARING #6180 - Pine Neck Holdings
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. 1 MEMBER DINIZIO:
2 "Request for a Variance under Section
3 280-116B, based on the Building Inspector's
4 May 13, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning
5 a deck addition to the existing single-family
6 dwelling at less than 75 feet from the
7 existing bulkhead, at 1475 Pine Neck Road,
8 Southold; CTM 70-5-40."
g MR. LEHNERT: Rob Lehnert for Peconic
10 Expediting representing Pine Neck Holdings.
11 We're basically looking for an exterior
12 deck. We're asking to violate the rear yard
13 setback. We've held the deck back from the
• liance
i
b
t
14 n comp
e
o
side yard setback so as
15 there. We feel it's the smallest possible
16 deck to enjoy the water views. It's going to
17 be open to the sky. The homeowner is not
18 planning to do, you know, any major
19 renovations there.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I tell you, I'm
21 looking at it and I'm wondering why you can't
22 put it on the side.
23 MR. LEHNERT: Well, the reason it's not
24 on the side cause if you went into the house,
25 and I think there's a plan -- existing house
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 plan there -- you have the kitchen and dining
2 area basically facing the water and we'd like
3 to be able to have access from those two areas
4 onto the deck looking at the creek.
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I see that
6 there's like a set of steps there now on that
7 side on the water.
8 MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
9 MEMBER DINIZIO: Now, why couldn't you
10 like just build out a little bit say three
11 feet or four feet, whatever you need, and then
12 go over to the side of the house and then make
13 a big deck? You know, and have a nice time
14 out there. You know, what's the unique
15 situation that you have here that --
16 MR. LEHNERT: Taking advantage of the
17 water view.
18 MEMBER DINIZIO: Say that again.
19 MR. LEHNERT: Taking advantage of the
20 water view.
21 MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, this would, I
22 mean, if you put it on the side there's still
23 no obstructions to the water. So I think that
24 that's not a reason. Is there any other --
25 MR. LEHNERT: Well, we're also looking --
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1 if you look at the house also in the back
2 you've got a garage door and the basement and
3 you've got steps going down to the basement
4 and we're also looking to do is put some cover
5 over that.
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: Uh-huh. You want to
7 cover up that door?
8 MR. LEHNERT: We want to cover up that
9 door, want to be able to use it, you know,
10 without having it open to the weather. We're
11 planning to re-landscape that whole area.
12 MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah. I have to tell
13 you not very convincing.
• Ok
LEHNERT
MR
14 ay.
:
.
15 MEMBER DINIZIO: Is there anything on the
16 side that, you know, cesspools, trees or --
17 MR. LEHNERT: There is, we believe, I
18 don't know exactly where it is, but there is a
19 clean out going out under the kitchen.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: Uh-huh.
21 MR. LEHNERT: So the septic system would
22 be there.
23 MEMBER DINIZIO: So maybe you could find
29 that for us and let us know? Honestly, you
25 know, I don't see any reason why you can't put
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. 1 it on the side. So I need to build a case
2 that says that and, you know, if you could do
3 that it would certainly be what I suggest. If
4 you want to come out that back door, you know,
5 which is convenient because it's from the
6 living area, then build a four-foot deck over
7 to a deck on the side. What's that the west
8 side?
9 MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, it would be the west.
10 MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean that would cover
11 up that, you know, that would cover up the
12 door underneath the basement cause it's to the
13 west. So I mean, again, that's not a reason
• l
k
d
d
19 and I mean I
oo
e
at your reasons an
, you
15 know, basically, you know, they're not
16 convincing. Honestly, I mean just because
17 you're saying there's no mass, no
18 architectural elements wouldn't be good, it's
19 not detrimental. You know, they wouldn't be
20 if you put them in a conforming location
21 either. So I really need to, if I can, will
22 you get something that's going to, you know,
23 when I write this decision and have to
29 convince the Board that this is the place on
25 this piece of property where you must have it.
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• 1 Okay?
2 So if you can give that to me and that's
3 all I really have to say.
4 Thank you.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: I have to agree. The
6 drainage on-site is really difficult. It's
7 dramatically sloping from the house down.
8 MR. LEHNERT: Yes.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: And even though it's up
10 here you're still going to have standing water
11 on that deck or you don't you have slats that
12 it goes through and you still have a real
13 issue. I'm looking at the floor plan and
• 14 right now the proposed deck is accessible from
15 the inside of the house through the living
16 room and the dining room. Based upon the
17 configuration of the house, if this deck was
18 to be placed to the side in parallel line with
19 the elevation that it is now seaward, you
20 would still be able to have access from the
21 living room to the dining room and the view
22 would not be (inaudible) in any way.
23 So other than perhaps some mechanical
24 systems that are hidden that we're not aware
25 of, because you couldn't observe them, I don't
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r ~
LJ
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 really see why -- I don't object to this being
2 built, but -- and I understand why one would
3 want to, but I do think that's an incredible
4 encroachment on what's already a very
5 compromised situation as I know you know.
6 MR. LEHNERT: Um-hmm.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's also, I noted,
8 there's no gutters and leaders at all on the
9 house and I think that that's something that
10 perhaps ought to be considered when you
11 increase potential surface water, gutters and
12 leaders and perhaps a dry well would be a very
13 advantageous thing to incorporate into this
19 application, particularly in addressing
15 (inaudible). Other than that, I don't have
16 any comments or questions.
17 MEMBER SIMON: I, too, have a question of
18 given the delicacy of the area and the
19 steepness of the land, there is another way
20 where you don't have the full 12 feet reach
21 out in the direction of the creek would be
22 better. I mean, clearly, it would be
23 desirable to build a deck. The only question
24 is what the optimal location and size of it
25 would be. I don't have any further questions.
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1 MEMBER OLIVA: Okay, my question too is
2 really basically about the drainage cause
3 that really slopes down so you're going to
4 have to have very high pilings or posts or
5 whatever you have to keep that deck up.
6 MR. LEHNERT: Yeah.
7 MEMBER OLIVA: And -- you don't have any
8 soil tests?
9 MR. LEHNERT: No, we have no soil tests.
10 MEMBER OLIVA: No soil tests. I kind of
11 agree with Jim. It's not a bad idea if you'd
12 swing around to the side that would be far
13 less harmful to the drainage and you've got to
14 get some drainage in there away from there.
15 You've got tons of room there to put dry wells
16 landward.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: Would you be going to
18 entertain submitting an amended plan?
19 MR. LEHNERT: Yeah, I have no problem
20 submitting an amended plan.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: And (inaudible) to the
22 LWRP, these comments in terms of on-site
23 drainage and so on. I think maybe we need to
24 hold the hearing open or we can adjourn
25 subject to receiving an amended plan. I think
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1 maybe we'll need to hold it open though
2 because there's going to be a substantial
3 change. We'll probably want to hear you
4 present it again.
5 MR. LEHNERT: Okay.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Do you want to give
7 us a date then, Linda?
8 MR. LEHNERT: Can I get the next calendar
9 date?
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I guess. Put it on
11 as the last one I guess we have no other
12 choice.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: We're adjourned until
h
?
14 w
en
15 BOARD ASST.: I would have to say 3:00,
16 it'll be the last hearing of the day, at the
17 end of the day 3:00 August 21.
18 MR. LEHNERT: August 21.
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
20 MR. LEHNERT: Okay, thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Would
22 anybody else like to speak for or against this
23 application at this time?
24 There being no further comment, I'll
25 adjourn the hearing. Make a motion to adjourn
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1 the hearing until August 21.
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
3 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
5 HEARING #6184 - Gregory and Stacey Schweitzer
6 MEMBER DINIZIO:
7 ~~Request for a Variance under Section
8 280-15, based on the Building Inspector's May
9 6, 2008 Notice of Disapproval concerning a
10 proposed accessory swimming pool in a yard
11 other than the code-required rear yard, at 385
12 Wendy Drive, Laurel; CTM 127-8-9."
13 Okay, you have the floor, sir, ma'am.
. 14 QUIGLEY
We're here to --
MS
:
.
15 MEMBER DINIZIO: Would you give your name
16 --
17 MS. QUIGLEY: Excuse me?
18 MEMBER DINIZIO: Your name and address.
19 MS. QUIGLEY: My name is Cathy Quigley.
20 I'm from Swim King Pools.
21 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, go ahead.
22 MS. QUIGLEY: And that's Gregory
23 Schweitzer.
24 MEMBER DINIZIO: Go ahead.
25 MS. QUIGLEY: We're here to request
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• 1 permission to install an in-ground pool in a
2 non-conforming side yard. This particular
3 property doesn't really have -- there is a
4 deck in their rear yard, which takes up a good
5 portion, which does not give us enough room to
6 install an in-ground pool in the rear yard,
7 the required rear yard.
8 MEMBER DINIZIO: Alright, so basically
9 it's the deck that's causing you to be in a
10 side yard, correct?
11 MS. QUIGLEY: Correct. Well, we might
12 not have been able to meet, it would have been
13 close, cause there is only -- well it's 40
• 14 ld h
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15 to meet the setbacks for the rear yard with
16 the pool, it would have been right off the
17 house.
18 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. With the pool
19 they have a deck.
20 MS. QUIGLEY: Right.
21 MEMBER DINIZIO: They used the rear yard
22 in the back of the house. If the deck were a
23 patio if you maybe adjoin the pool to the deck
24 and it wouldn't be in the side yard anymore.
25 MS. QUIGLEY: It would have been
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. 1 partially in the --
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: There's plenty of ways
3 to go here, but that's as I see it. As it's
4 an existing structure here, it's not
5 traditionally the side of your house that
6 you're building on. It's just a deck that
7 sticks out nearly a yard and you want to put a
8 pool along side it.
9 MS. QUIGLEY: Exactly.
10 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, are there any
11 cesspools or anything that might be, you know,
12 making you put it in this location?
13 MR. SCHWEITZER: No, there -- well, yeah
d i
th
f
t
h
14 ron
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e survey an
on the side on t
15 there's two cesspools. So --
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's a rather odd-shaped
17 lot, too.
18 MR. SCHWEITZER: It is very odd, it's
19 like a triangle, sort of.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's like a trapezoid.
21 MR. SCHWEITZER: Right, right.
22 MS. QUIGLEY: I do have a letter of
23 support from the neighbor directly to the
24 west, which would be the one most -- where the
25 pool would be mostly on their side.
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1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean other than the
3 fact that if they put this pool right up
9 against the house they probably wouldn't even
5 need a variance. If you attached it to the
6 deck, they wouldn't need a variance and
7 apparently to me it doesn't seem like there's
8 many other places that would be more
9 detrimental than any place else.
10 MR. SCHWEITZER: I don't know if you've
11 been there, but it's backed up to a tree farm.
12 So, you know, they don't -- and the neighbor
13 that gave the letter is the only one visible
14 that it's right there and they're very nice
15 and in support of it and our other neighbor on
16 the other side is too. It doesn't bother any
17 of the neighbors. It's not an eye-sore or
18 anything. You know, the yard's fenced in.
19 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, that's all I have,
20 Gerry.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, well I think this
22 is a perfectly reasonable placement given this
23 shape of the lot and the fact that you're
24 very, very heavily screened with, you know,
25 evergreens and so on, but I do want to say for
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1 the record this is not a proposed accessory
2 pool. This is a fully built pool that was
3 done before you came before us to seek a
4 variance. So this is now an as-built pool and
5 patio that we're talking about. Okay. It's
6 lovely by the way.
7 MR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: I would also say that
9 Michael frequently says, you know, would we
10 have granted this were we to grant this before
11 you built it and my answer to that is, in my
12 particular point of view, probably. I have to
13 say probably because we haven't seen the
kn
wn how the
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15 neighbors feel. I don't really object to its
16 placement there. It's not having any
17 detrimental impact on anything or anybody
18 cause it's fully fenced in.
19 I did just want to ask you why is it, you
20 know; you're a professional, you know about
21 this and so on, how is it this is built
22 without requesting a variance in the first
23 place?
24 MS. QUIGLEY: Well, there is an
25 explanation for that. I had taken a survey
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 down to the Town to the Building Department on
2 two separate occasions to check the pool
3 placement and I think Greg also did the same
4 thing.
5 MR. SCHWEITZER: Yes, I did.
6 MS. QUIGLEY: And we were obviously given
7 the information that that was the only spot
8 that we could put the pool in. So -- and they
9 also gave Greg the same information and, you
10 know, that really wasn't correct. When I
11 filed the application with the Town that's
12 when -- like a week and a half later is when
13 it came back to me that it wasn't -- it
14 couldn't stay in that location without a
15 variance. So I brought the survey down to
16 Building Department, you know, to double check
17 that position and yeah they did say it was
18 okay, but obviously they probably didn't --
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: That was stated in
20 error?
21 MS. QUIGLEY: Yes.
22 MR. SCHWEITZER: I work for the Town, but
23 I came down and talked to somebody I knew and
29 I gave them a survey and I said if I want to
25 put -- this is before I even called them. I
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• 1 said if I want to put a pool in here, which we
2 knew we wanted to do at some point, where
3 could I put it? And they drew it right on the
4 spot that you're looking at. After it was
5 denied, I came back and I said, like I played
6 dumb, and I said if I want to put a pool in my
7 yard, where could I put it? And they picked
8 the same spot and then they caught themselves
9 and said, oh, is that a deck? They didn't
10 catch the deck on the first try around, which
11 is fine, you know, it was a mistake. So the
12 same thing happened, but there was a hole in
13 the ground with everything thought was going
• 19 th
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15 it's like ahhh.
16 Now, it's like, you know, we got the
17 denial and stuff. In a way it was better to
18 fix it than have this hole in the ground.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: So you just continued
20 knowing you were going to have to --
21 MR. SCHWEITZER: Yeah, I knew at that
22 point we were going to have to get a variance
23 and we didn't know about what was going to be
24 with the deck.
25 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Why was the hole
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. 1 dug before the building permit was granted or
2 not granted?
3 MS. QUIGLEY: Once I had applied for the
4 application and I had left it at the Building
5 Department our excavation crew was under the
6 impression that the permit was issued and they
7 started excavation and it wasn't issued at the
8 time. It was a communication problem on Swim
9 King's part that caused that in the first
10 place.
11 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Okay. So that --
12 that, I mean, that's not necessarily the
13 Town's fault that --
'
h
t th
T
'
14 own
s
s no
e
MS. QUIGLEY: No, t
at
15 fault.
16 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: -- building
17 occurred before the building permit was
18 issued.
19 MR. SCHWEITZER: I'm not trying to blame
20 the Town, Kieran, at all.
21 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: People come in all
22 the time and say you told us we could do it.
23 MS. QUIGLEY: No.
29 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: But people often
25 know they need building permits and they begin
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. 1 work before the permits are granted. This is
2 not any pejorative view on whether this should
3 be granted or not. I have no view.
4 MEMBER SIMON: May I just get
5 clarification on this for the sake of future
6 procedure? I don't think there is a
7 substantive issue here. Is -- I mean, this is
8 not exactly the first pool that Swim King has
9 ever built in this Town.
10 MS. QUIGLEY: No, it's not.
11 MEMBER SIMON: And the idea of proceeding
12 without actually having seen evidence that
13 there is such a building permit is something
• t
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14 o repea
.
wan
no
that you probably wou
15 MS. QUIGLEY: We do quite a few pools in
16 the Town of Southold.
17 MEMBER SIMON: But not without permits?
18 MS. QUIGLEY: No, not without permits and
19 --
20 MEMBER SIMON: Okay, right. And then
21 the problem of what you were told by the
22 Building Department didn't say that when you
23 get -- didn't make it clear that when you got
24 a disapproval that you had to apply for a
25 variance and then went ahead and just sort of
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1 one oversight following another one and that's
2 why we are where we are. I mean, luckily the
3 substantive damage does not seem to be
4 significant at all, but all -- lots of Town
5 Boards spend a lot of time, I should say waste
6 a lot of time, trying to sort out the
7 carelessness of other agencies, some private,
8 some public.
9 MS. QUIGLEY: I mean we --
10 MEMBER SIMON: I just -- I --
11 MS. QUIGLEY: We are aware of the rules
12 and, you know, we will abide by the rules, you
13 know, with the permits in place prior to
i
di
14 ng.
gg
15 MEMBER SIMON: Right. As I said I'm not
16 so much concerned with Swim King as I am with
17 the whole business in the Town Hall. Thank
18 you.
19 MEMBER OLIVA: Well, it's a beautiful
20 pool. I was ready to jump in.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
22 MEMBER OLIVA: I don't have any further
23 questions.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Let's
25 see if anything develops. Hold on one second.
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. 1 Is there anybody in the audience who
2 would like to speak for or against this
3 application?
4 Seeing no hands, I'll make a motion
5 closing the hearing, reserve decision.
6 MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
7 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
g HEARING #6182 - Arthur R. Torell
10 MEMBER WEISMAN:
11 ~~Request for Variances under Section 280-
12 18 (Bulk Lot Area Schedule) and 280-124
13 (setback schedule), based on the Building
• 14 Inspector's amended May 21, 2008 Notice of
15 Disapproval concerning: (1) proposed lot area
16 with a new nonconformity of 19,028 square of
17 feet in size instead of 21,458 square feet,
18 resulting in the remaining lot, which will
19 become more conforming at 27,196 square feet
20 instead of 29,756 square feet; and (2) a
21 proposed single-family dwelling at less than
22 40 feet from the rear lot line. Location:
23 365 Westwood Lane; CTM 33-20-11 and 33-2-10."
29 From the application it's clear that lot
25 11 is going to become more conforming and it's
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1 lot 10 that will become less conforming and
2 the dwelling that you're proposing will have a
3 20-foot rear yard setback while the code
4 requires a 40-foot rear yard setback.
5 You'll also need Planning Board approval
6 for this application. There are substantial
7 wetlands on the property. It's a substantial
8 reduction.
9 MR. CUDDY: Thank you. Charles Cuddy for
10 Arthur Torell. Mr. Torell is here in the room
11 with us.
12 This is somebody who has really tried to
13 get permits and has gotten permits, but not
is
I think sometimes histor
it
h
14 y
perm
s.
enoug
15 maybe more instructive than logic and I, if
16 you don't mind, I would like to just go
17 through some of the approvals that he has and
18 where that's placed him.
19 You gave him approval in December of 2009
20 regarding a setback variance. He subsequently
21 went to the County of Suffolk and to the DEC.
22 When he went to the DEC they suggested that he
23 go through a different procedure, septic-wise.
24 He then went back to the County of Suffolk and
25 the County of Suffolk through the Health
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• 1 Department held a hearing. He actually had to
2 have an appeal hearing in order to get his
3 septic system set on the northerly of these
4 two lots that we're talking about. So he has
5 an easement to satisfy the Health Department
6 and he got Health Department approval based on
7 that for this particular site.
8 We're talking about the site essentially
9 being the lower or the southerly of the two
10 lots. It's the file map and those are 67 and
11 68 and they're known as tax lots 10 and 11.
12 He subsequently had approval from the
13 Trustees and he now has a situation where the
ired
it ex
hi
hi
id t
19 .
p
s perm
m
o
Trustees have sa
15 He asked them to extend it. They refused to
16 extend it. They said to him that he had to
17 move further back than he already was. He
18 went with the Trustees to the site. They
19 suggested to him that he move it as far back,
20 the house, as he possibly could. He then went
21 to his surveyor and has asked him to draw the
22 lines that you see on the map.
23 What he's really doing, as you can see,
24 is that he's having a lot line change, which
25 takes the larger lot reduces it by 2400 square
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• 1 feet. Takes the smaller lot and increases it
2 by 2400 square feet. He then ends up with a
3 setback, which is twice as far as he had on
4 the earlier applications to the Trustees, 35
5 and 40 feet respectively, but he also ends up
6 with a very tight setback on the rear yard.
7 I would offer two things into evidence,
8 if I may, I think you have copies of the
9 Suffolk County determination. I think you
10 have copies of the DEC determination. I would
11 ask you to accept a copy of the map of the
12 adjoining subdivision. He's in Eastern
13 Shores, the subdivision immediately to the
nd that
d A
t
ll
d H
14 cres a
omes
ea
e
east of him is ca
15 shows that the property in back of him that he
16 would face on with this 20-foot setback is an
17 open-space area. So that it won't affect
18 anybody essentially. So if I could I would
19 hand that up and at the same time I would hand
20 up to you a copy of the tax map for this area
21 for his Westwood Lane site to show you that
22 the lots, many of the lots, are smaller than
23 the proposed 19,000 square foot lot. Some of
24 them are 16,000, some 17, some are 20 and I
25 think that it's not going to change anything,
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• 1 but I'll get to that in just a minute.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
3 MR. CUDDY: So what Mr. Torell is faced
4 with, at this point in time, is having Health
5 Department approval, having DEC approval,
6 attempting to get Trustees approval based on
7 their idea that he must now move back further.
8 He has to go to the Planning Board and
9 ultimately to the Building Department. So
10 here is somebody trying to construct a house
11 on a lot that he purchased a number of years
12 ago and he's ending up going to five agencies,
13 plus the Building Department, which is
I think the reason I'm
d h
t
'
i
ifi
14 s,
can
an
e
gn
s
15 here is because I think Mr. Torell is sort of
16 running out of steam because he's been going
17 back and forth trying to get the approvals.
18 He, at this point in time, is ready to
19 build. He would like to move into this site
20 and have the house on what is the southerly
21 lot, which is lot 67 on the filed map. He
22 works from his house. He wants a house of the
23 size that's shown there so he can have room to
24 operate his business, which is designing, and
25 it would appear to me that under the
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1 circumstances he has not created the
2 situation.
3 This lot, as everybody is aware, has some
4 wetlands on it in a significant amount. There
5 are wetlands to the south. The south wetlands
6 are all preserved in the name of the Town of
7 Southold. So what he has is a non-self-
8 created situation. He has very little
9 alternative because the Trustees have said to
10 him that he must move further back. Certainly
11 the impact on the community is really non-
12 existent because these are two subdivided lots
13 and they're essentially the same size as other
14 lots in the community. They back onto an
15 open-space area. I don't think that there's
16 any physical or environmental impact. In
17 fact, I think his sensitivity in moving back
18 further is a plus on the environmental side.
19 So I don't think that there's any significant
20 impact there.
21 Again, I recognize that the variance is
22 somewhat substantial, but under these
23 circumstances he does not have very much of a
24 choice if he's to finally get the Trustees'
25 approval. So I would hope that the Board, in
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• 1 looking at this, can grant this knowing that
2 the impact upon anybody will be very minimal.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Cuddy, does Mr.
4 Torell own lot 68 also?
5 MR. CUDDY: Yes.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so there's no
7 issue with purchasing anybody's property and
8 all of that?
9 MR. CUDDY: No.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: You own it and you're in
11 control.
12 MR. CUDDY: That's right.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright. Are there
• ale of that lot for
f
th
l
l
t
19 or
e s
even
ua
p
ans
15 another residence of some sort?
16 MR. CUDDY: At some time in the future,
17 yes, but not right now.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right now it's an
19 investment.
20 MR. CUDDY: That's right.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. And the Trustees
22 are essentially requiring that you notch that
23 lot line out in order to shove the house back
24 --
25 MR. CUDDY: Yes. Yes.
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• 1 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- to build?
2 MR. CUDDY: Yes.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Away from the wetlands
4 as much as possible?
5 MR. CUDDY: Yes and before it was
6 considerably less than this. It was only half
7 that distance.
8 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay and it's set back
9 quite a long distance from the road, from
10 Westwood Lane, and the reason for that setback
11 is -- because that's affecting the rear --
12 MR. CUDDY: Well -- I understand, but we
13 thought that that would also affect the
. t if w
l
d
i
i
h
14 o
e
jo
n
ng
e a
building envelope on t
15 made it come out further, in other words,
16 going towards Westwood Lane. So he was trying
17 to move as far back as he could while you
18 could set the other house up closer to the
19 road.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. I just wanted to
21 understand why that lot was drawn the way it
22 was and the house was placed specifically with
23 that 20-foot --
24 MR. CUDDY: And also --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- setback. Then
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. 1 there's lots of room to bring it forward
2 further to the road.
3 MR. CUDDY: But the wetlands line sort of
9 meanders closer to the road at that point and
5 it comes in.
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. No further
7 questions.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim?
9 MEMBER DINIZIO: No questions.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ruth?
11 MEMBER OLIVA: No questions.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael.
13 MEMBER SIMON: I have no questions except
i
14 nor one.
a very, very m
15 MR. CUDDY: Okay.
16 MEMBER SIMON: Were you knowingly
17 paraphrasing Justice Homes when you contracted
18 a page of history with a volume of logic?
19 MR. CUDDY: Um, only slightly. 2 had
20 read Justice Homes. I appreciate it, thank
21 you.
22 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Let them give
23 credit where credit is due, right?
24 MR. CUDDY: I won't -- that's right I
25 won't lift it from anybody.
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1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Mr. Cuddy we
2 appreciate your presentation and the
3 historical nature of this. I remember these
4 applications that have been before us for a
5 long time.
6 MR. CUDDY: Yeah.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're happy that
8 Mr. Torell has -- I'm happy that Mr. Torell is
9 finally going to be able to build a house
10 based upon this variance and knowing that and
11 seeing no one else in the audience except for
12 Mr. Torell I will motion to close the hearing,
13 reserve decision until later.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
15 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
17 HEARING #6131 - Greg and Karen Dadourian
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: This has been a
19 recessed hearing.
20 BOARD ASST.: #6131.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We'll go right to
22 Ms. Moore.
23 MS. MOORS: Yes, thank you. Pat Moore
24 510-20 Main Road, Southold. I have with me
25 Mr. Greg Dadourian who is the -- you met his
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 29, 2008
. 1 wife last time -- and I have the pleasure of
2 having her husband here today.
3 To recap where we were, back in -- we
4 started the hearing and we presented a plan
5 that has the pool in the side yard meeting
6 setbacks appropriate for principle setback
7 structure setbacks and also 100 feet from the
8 top of the bank in order to comply with LWRP
9 recommendations and policies.
10 At that time, I guess in April, there was
11 a continuation of the hearing and the
12 neighbors -- we could not be here, we were out
13 of the country -- and you took some testimony
hbors' concerns or
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15 continued testimony and one of the requests
16 that was made by one of the neighbors and I
17 apologize I don't know which, I don't recall
18 which one, I assume it's the one on the west,
19 was could we possibly move the pool back even
20 slightly further towards the street.
21 We went back to our architect and we did
22 submit a plan that was sent to you about June
23 9. At that time again we met the 15-foot side
24 yard setbacks. We moved the pool I believe it
25 was 5 feet towards the street.
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• 1 MEMBER OLIVA: 5 feet forward.
2 MS. MOORE: Yes, 5 feet towards the road.
3 Okay. I also had submitted to you, prior to
4 that hearing, I believe it was a landscape
5 plan, which I have it here again with me, but
6 you should have it in your file. I have
7 additional copies. The landscape plan had
8 been previously requested by the Board and it
9 shows the Leland cypress 5-6 feet height along
10 the property line between the westerly
11 neighbor and ourselves and additional Leland
12 cypress on the easterly side just to add some
13 privacy to the residents because the property
• ool
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14 .
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as a p
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owner,
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15 we wanted to maintain some privacy there as
16 well.
17 In addition, as I said, we went back to
18 look and see if we could move the pool towards
19 the road. That created some difficulties with
20 our house plan because the house, the doorways
21 and the entrances between the pool, the
22 proposed pool, as it was originally proposed
23 to you, and the house there was a correlation.
24 It had been designed by the architect and the
25 owners after very careful thought. They asked
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1 if they could move the house slightly forward
2 so that they could continue the flow, the
3 traffic flow, between the rooms and the living
4 area and the porch and the pool. So they, in
5 fact, and we had a variance already requested
6 for the front yard, so it was not new relief,
7 it was a modification of the application that
8 we had originally with you of 35 feet. We
9 asked if we could encroach slightly and it's
10 just a small portion of the house, which is
11 the bay window and some of the front. There's
12 a line shown and it encroaches at its closest
13 point, 30.9. Visually it would be almost
. k
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our
undetected, but for purposes o
15 and our flow it's very important. So we did
16 submit that as well to you and in my letter I
17 described all that.
18 We're here to continue the dialogue with
19 the Board and answer any questions you might
20 have and hopefully we can move forward with
21 this application.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ruth, any
23 questions?
24 MEMBER OLIVA: No.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jimmy?
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1 MEMBER DINIZIO: No.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie?
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, I think it's all
4 quite clear what you're proposing and I have
5 no questions about it.
6 MEMBER SIMON: So it's 30.9 feet now?
7 MS. MOORS: Yes. The house at its
8 closest point is the survey that I have
9 prepared by Nate Corwin, let me make sure I
10 give you the proper date, was relocated last
11 dated July 25, 2007.
12 MEMBER OLIVA: 7?
13 MS. MOORS: I think he misstated that.
• th
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--
14 was
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ave
You know what
15 architect. At the top of the email cause I
16 got it by email, it says house 5 feet forward,
17 pool 5 feet forward and pool change to 18 by
18 36.
19 Yeah, it was when I submitted the new
20 surveys.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's no name on this
22 one that was sent to us.
23 MS. MOORS: Is it certified to?
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: It was certified to, but
25 it doesn't say who prepared it.
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•
ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 MS. MOORS: Oh, okay. It's --
2 MEMBER SIMON: You went to Corwin, right?
3 MS. MOORS: Yes, it's Nate Corwin. It
9 looks like --
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: There's no date on this
6 one. So --
7 MS. MOORS: (Inaudible) thank you.
8 (Inaudible) the date and I'll have them
9 (inaudible).
10 And you do have the landscape plan.
11 Would you like another?
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
13 MS. MOORS: Okay, that's fine.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You don't have a --
15 if you have a landscape plan with the house
16 shown on it, right?
17 MS. MOORS: Yes. Right -- okay. That
18 landscape plan may have been prior to the
19 movement of the pool -- yes, I know that it
20 was. It was prior to the movement of the pool
21 and the house by about 5 feet, but the
22 plantings will be in the same place. It'll
23 just be adjusted to the final placement of the
29 house.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
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. 1 MS. MOORS: I would also, pool equipment
2 is enclosed. I know that that was a request.
3 MEMBER DINIZIO: Sound suppressed?
4 MS. MOORS: Pardon?
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: Sound suppressed?
6 MS. MOORS: Sound suppressed, yes.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Michael, any
8 questions?
9 MEMBER SIMON: No. I don't have any
10 questions.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, anybody else
12 like to speak for or against this application?
13 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes
.
15 BOARD ASST.: Could we have your name,
16 please, for the record?
17 MRS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible)
18 Demetriades.
19 BOARD ASST.: Thank you.
20 MRS. DEMETRIADES: The address is 400
21 Petty's Drive.
22 BOARD ASST.: We can't hear you well. May
23 I ask you to speak into the microphone?
24 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just pull the
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1 microphone a little bit towards you.
2 BOARD ASST.: We want to hear you well.
3 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Okay. Okay, I'm going
4 to read it, please.
5 "Thank you for your attention and your
6 time in hearing my pleas. As a conscientious
7 citizen of Orient, and resident of Petty's
8 Drive for the last 23 years, it has been my
9 pleasure and duty to maintain the beauty and
10 quality of our neighborhood.
11 "With this in mind, I am in opposition to
12 the proposed location of the in-ground
13 swimming pool located at 695 Petty's Drive.
in violation of
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"Thi
14 w
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s sa
poo
15 the code required front or rear yard location
16 for this waterfront parcel of land. Each
17 landowner of this street is aware of this
18 requirement and has abide by the set
19 guidelines.
20 "This proposed pool located 15 feet from
21 my property, directly next to my kitchen and
22 dining room, is in direct violation of my
23 privacy. Privacy is indeed a privilege, which
29 is precisely why I have chosen this location
25 for myself and for my family, and continue to
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
1 pay taxes to preserve my privacy. The
2 chemical involved in pool maintenance, noise
3 production and the visual aesthetics will all
4 compromise the quality and value of my
5 property.
6 ~~Please understand, I am not in objection
7 of an in-ground pool next to my property in
8 the appropriate location, I am only opposing
9 the proposed site location."
10 And I have other things to say. Patricia
11 Moore said that we said to move the pool
12 slightly, there is no such thing as slightly.
13 We said we're opposing the site there, that's
14 it. They have moved it only 5 feet toward the
15 street. What we have said at the beginning
16 maybe they should put, consider the pool in
17 the front of the yard if they don't want to
18 put it in the back, the rear, but not
19 slightly. There was no such thing as the word
20 slightly, okay.
21 Now, my husband has something to read,
22 too, because we are very, very concerned about
23 this location and I think I'm going to give
24 you also.
25 MR. DEMETRIADES: I want to present this
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1 myself if you don't mind.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you.
3 Could you just state your name for the
4 record, Mr. -- sir?
5 MR. DEMETRIADES: Dino Demetriades.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
7 MR. DEMETRIADES: Okay.
8 ~~The last time I was here I told you the
9 reasons that I do not accept the Dadourian's
10 proposed swimming pool location. The proposal
11 location would be located on the side of my
12 house, next to my kitchen. I do not
13 understand, and I would like to know why the
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swimming pool w
15 current code, in the front or in the back of
16 the house.
17 ~~I have been a taxpayer in Orient for the
18 last 23 years and I have never created a
19 disturbance. I have faithfully tried to keep
20 this Town clean and well maintained. When Mr.
21 Dadourian bought the property next door to my
22 own, I warmly welcomed him. I have nothing
23 against him building the swimming pool in the
24 proper way. However, Mr. Dadourian's attempt
25 to build the swimming pool against regulations
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1 is infringing upon my rights.
2 "I am asking you to understand my desire
3 to keep my property as quiet and private as it
4 is currently is. If you permit the swimming
5 pool to be built on the side of the
6 Dadourian's house the value of my property
7 will be decreased, the most important thing.
8 The noise level will be increased due to the
9 pool equipment, etc., thereby decreasing the
10 quietude of my house. My privacy will be
11 compromised. The air quality within my house
12 will be compromised as a result of the pool
13 chemicals being used and the close proximity
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14 y.
o my proper
15 "Finally, if the Dadourians are permitted
16 to build the swimming pool on the side of
17 their house, a precedent will be set. I ask
18 you, would you like to have a swimming pool
19 built directly next to your house in such a
20 manner as is being proposed?
21 "Thank you for your time and
22 understanding."
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
24 You statements are clearly noted.
25 Is there anybody else who'd like to
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1 speak?
2 Ma'am, in the back of the room. Excuse
3 me, sir, the lady held up her hand first in
4 the back of the room.
5 MEMBER ZURL: I didn't see her.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Be right with you.
7 MS. DRUDGE: Hi, I'm Madelyn Drudge. I
8 live at 885 Petty's Drive in Orient Point.
9 I'm one lot away from the -- no, I'm the next
10 lot to the proposed house on the other side of
11 where they want the pool.
12 I would like to point out that everything
13 they propose is a variation on the same theme.
14 They're not really compromising on their end.
15 They're just varying the way they are
16 compromising. They still want the pool on the
17 side of the house and the code that doesn't
18 permit pools on the side of the house was
19 initiated for a reason. Other people will
20 also want or have wanted pools on the side of
21 their house and haven't gotten them and never
22 will, cause this is not Queens, this is Orient
23 Point.
24 So far I have not -- it doesn't appear
25 and I don't know if I'm correct, but I don't
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1 think they've really made any attempt to
2 reduce their end, the size of their house or
3 their pool to fit the small dimensions that
4 they would be allowed, which would indicate
5 that they would be suffering somewhat. They
6 wouldn't get what they want, but the question
7 is, why would they move into a neighborhood
8 where there are rules that give them only so
9 much room to work with and yet they want to
10 change those rules and none of us have.
11 I put in a permit for a balcony in front
12 of my house that only protruded out three feet
13 and I was denied. I know you're going to say
. t if th
t
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14 ey ge
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s a separate
ssue,
that
15 granted a pool in the way they're asking then
16 I'm going to challenge the Town and say then
17 why wouldn't I get a variance.
18 I would also like to say other people
19 have pools and their pools are not
20 compromising the codes of the house next to
21 the empty lot, next to Desi and Dino, has a
22 pool in the front of their house and,
23 according to me, that would be the only way I
29 could see them getting a pool and they would
25 suffer cause no one wants a pool in the front
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1 of their house, but why wouldn't they be the
2 ones to have to deal with that? They have to
3 compromise, they're coming into the
4 neighborhood and these are the rules of the
5 neighborhood. I see the pool -- they're very
6 happy with the pool in the front of the house
7 on the other side of the lot. They're not
8 complaining. They abided by the rules and
9 everybody's happy, not just them. I think
10 that's it for now.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you. Sir?
12 MR. ZURL: Anthony Zurl, 250 Petty's
13 Drive.
• l
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oar
I think one of the prob
15 and Mr. Dadourian or the attorney, the best
16 way to resolve this is to reverse roles. If
17 Mr. Dadourian lived where Dino lives, would he
18 want a pool built next to where they're
19 entertaining their guests and have the
20 chemical fumes spill into their yard and
21 that's basically what I want to say.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could I just have
23 the spelling of your last name, sir?
24 MEMBER ZURL: Z-U-R-L.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thank you, sir.
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 29, 2008
1 MEMBER ZURL: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody else?
3 We would like to close this hearing
4 today. Ms. Moore quickly.
5 MS. MOORE: Yes, quickly. I think we've
6 set forth all our reasoning the first time we
7 had this hearing. The comments that I'm
8 hearing are pretty much a continuation and a
9 repeat of what was the comments that were
10 previously made. I'd be happy to go back and
11 restate everything, but I think your record
12 already has our reasoning that it is a
13 principle setback, that the LWRP was recently
.
14 adopted and we are trying to comply with LWRP
15 and we are making the best -- I mean my
16 clients wanted a pool on the waterfront side
17 of the house within that 100 feet. It was my
18 advice that, given the LWRP and the Board's
19 preference of environmental issues over the
20 placement of a pool that conforms to principle
21 setbacks, that it appeared to me that it made
22 more sense to comply with one policy of the
23 code verses another and I know this Board has
29 received many, many variance applications for
25 pools in side yards because of the
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. 1 environmental regulations that have been
2 imposed since property owner's first purchased
3 their property.
9 So I think everything has been said and
5 we hope that you will certainly take in
6 everybody's, but certainly our efforts to
7 bring a proposal that meets with environmental
8 issues and setback issues that are conforming.
9 Would you like me to respond?
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: From you? I know
11 I'm --
12 MS. DRUDGE: I want to respond to what
13 she's saying.
• 14 v
over
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER
W
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:
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you mo
e
15 here, please, so I can --
16 Ms. Drudge, these questions and standards
17 have to be directed toward the Board, okay?
18 MS. DRUDGE: Okay, Madelyn Drudge, 885
19 Petty's Drive, Orient Point.
20 What I'm proposing is if she can come up
21 with a solution that's within the code, it's
22 fine. She's asking us to agree to her desires
23 and we don't. If someone else requested a
24 pool on their side yard and got it, it's
25 because their neighbors agreed that they could
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• 1 have it. We don't.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I just put this
3 to bed for the last time? This is not a
4 sarcastic statement, okay.
5 It is required in our code a 100 foot
6 setback. There is no doubt in my mind that
7 there is a little bit of an environmental
8 problem down there and that is the fact that
9 the bank that exists is eroding. Okay, and
10 therefore any place on that property is going
11 to require a variance. Alright? We're
12 talking two side yards, one rear yard, one
13 front yard and any place they would put it
• 14
would require a variance and that is the
15 story.
16 Okay, so we understand what you're saying
17 regarding the side yard issue. Okay?
18 Completely. I understand it completely, but
19 it's a swap of one variance for another
20 variance.
21 MS. DRUDGE: And you're saying they have
22 a right to have a pool.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I never said that.
24 MS. DRUDGE: And I'm saying they don't
25 have a right to have a pool because it
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• 1 interferes with the environment.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Fine.
3 MS. DRUDGE: It's -- in other words it's
9 their problem not ours.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay. Thank you.
6 MEMBER SIMON: I would be interested in
7 further -- people addressing, I'm not going
8 to, the desirability of a pool on the roadside
9 if that requires a variance. Why would that
10 variance be a better place to put it without a
11 variance or not? I just wanted to hear people
12 address those sides of those issues. Side
13 versus roadside.
side one is
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DEMETRIADES
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:
MRS.
15 Mr. Simon, is really on top of --
16 MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry. I understand
17 the objections to the side one.
18 MRS. DEMETRIADES: The thing is --
19 MEMBER SIMON: You see no objections to
20 the one on the roadside, to put it roadside?
21 MRS. DEMETRIADES: It would be just a
22 little bit away from me. Now, I have, it so
23 happens that I have everything on my side.
24 I'm going to have all the noise that's going
25 to be right there because my house the way it
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. 1 is. You see when I built the house I had to
2 change a lot of things, okay, I had to reverse
3 the house. Put the garage in a different
4 place and everything. I didn't have a
5 swimming pool, but I had to do it. Okay.
6 Now, right now my activities are my driveway,
7 my garage, the kitchen. Everything is right
8 there and this will be on top of --
9 MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me. This is what
10 we've heard. I take it very seriously. I
11 guess I haven't made myself clear.
12 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Okay.
• 13 MEMBER SIMON: I would like to hear
14 arguments against putting it on the road side,
15 not further arguments against putting it on
16 the side. We've heard that very eloquently
17 from a number of people, trust Ms. Moore or
18 other people or the Dadourians if they're here
19 could speak to that question.
20 MRS. DEMETRIADES: I would like to see
21 the pool in the rear, that's where it should
22 be.
23 MEMBER SIMON: By the rear, you mean?
24 MEMBER OLIVA: The waterfront side.
25 MEMBER SIMON: Oh, the waterfront.
•
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1 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yes.
2 MEMBER SIMON: I think it's very clear
3 that there are environmental problems with the
4 waterfront side. The question is what about
5 the road side?
6 MRS. DEMETRIADES: What about -- excuse
7 me, could I ask how come all the other houses
8 and I went around all the streets, up and
9 down, and I have -- all the waterfront
10 properties they all have the pool in the rear
11 that means by the water. All of them and
12 there was next to Mrs. Irene (inaudible) a
• 13 brand new house there are two houses there the
19 swimming pools by the water. They only house
15 only five feet away from the house and the
16 pool. Now the Dadourians want it so away from
17 their house if they could put the pool very
18 close to the house, five feet, as the law
19 requires, they have enough space to put the
20 pool in the back. They don't want to make any
21 adjustments and it's not fair if they
22 (inaudible) my privacy. My privacy would be
23 so bad.
24 MEMBER SIMON: I'm sorry, I don't know
25 about the other pools on the waterside. The
•
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1 LWRP
2 they
3 rule
4
5 rule
ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
have come in relatively recently, whether
were or should have been governed by LWRF
is not before us.
MEMBER DINIZIO: It's also the setback
of over 100 feet in the back.
6 MEMBER SIMON: In any case those pools
7 have -- I don't know whether we granted
8 variances for them or whether they had already
9 been built for some time.
10 At this point, we're in a situation where
11 there are reasons for maintaining the 100-foot
12 setback along the waterside for this
13 particular house. Are there similar reasons
19 which would apply to putting it on the road
15 side of the house? That's a narrow question
16 that I would really focus on cause I think we
17 have heard some very eloquent testimony from
18 yourself and others about the problems with
19 the side pool. We've heard from the LWRP that
20 there are embankment considerations for
21 seaside. I want to hear testimony regarding
22 the road side, because that's the position
23 which I think some people would like or not
24 like. That's what I want to hear just for the
25 sake of completion.
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. 1 MS. MOORE: Would you like me to speak on
2 that now?
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Sure.
4 MS. MOORE: The house leaves about 30
5 feet for a pool in the front yard. Aside from
6 the aesthetic issues that my client would
7 absolutely not want to have a pool in the
8 front yard when he has a waterfront house and
9 the driveway noise, the road activity, the
10 lack of privacy, the fact that you would have
11 to fence in and in a sense stockade yourself
12 in on your own property to keep privacy so you
13 -- pools generally you'd want to retain a
• 19 certain measure of privacy. People are in
15 bathing suits, unless they're exhibitionists,
16 they tend to want to have some privacy.
17 In order to put a pool in the front yard
18 we would need a variance because we would
19 certainly be encroaching on a front yard
20 setback. I can't speak with respect to the
21 one property owner that put a pool in a front
22 yard because I don't know what distance his
23 house was already to the top of the bank.
24 There may have been inadequate room both on
25 side yard and in the waterfront side of the
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• 1 house to accommodate a pool anywhere other
2 than a front yard. So I can't speak in terms
3 of that one example on the street that has a
4 pool in the front yard and as I recall an
5 aerial photograph that I -- it may be in your
6 file, it was somewhat in the side yard. It
7 got designed in such a way that it was caddy-
8 corner and somehow or another it got
9 incorporated. So I'm not sure it was truly in
10 the front yard. It may have been incorporated
11 into the structure so it was designed in. I
12 can't speak without having that in front of
13 me.
• 4 ou for sure that the house is
t
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1 can
e
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15 at 100 feet from the top of the bank so we
16 don't want to -- we certainly don't want to
17 move the house forward towards the bank in
18 order to accommodate a pool. The aesthetic
19 and the personal reasons are significant that
20 we do not want a pool in the front yard.
21 The reason we're here for a variance is
22 because the pool is with a patio. In order to
23 lessen the amount of structure we are putting
24 a patio around the pool. It's a covered
25 porch. We have a covered porch and then the
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• 1 patio. It's an open and it's pavers. So it is
2 not connected. If it were wood, we talked
3 about that, if it were a wood decking, it
4 would be all, based on your prior decisions
5 and the Building Department interpretation, it
6 is all part of the principle structure. I
7 believe that's how our neighbor to the east
8 has a pool in the back on the waterfront side
9 of the house. Again, specific to her case I
10 don't know what her setbacks are to the bluff,
11 but that house, the neighbor who has comments
12 on this application, has a pool and has a pool
13 in the backyard on the waterfront side.
if
k
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b
14 y,
ac
ou
an
ver
We made -- p
ease go
15 she makes an issue with respect to having the
16 pool by her kitchen. The pool is, in fact,
17 adjacent to her two-car garage. That was the
18 reason that we moved it forward by five feet
19 to clearly take it outside of the area of her,
20 I think it's a kitchen door that goes to the
21 back. So we have actually placed it next to a
22 garage. It really -- her garage is more of an
23 encroachment or it's more activity on a
24 neighbor than a pool would be, but we have
25 accommodated that. We have created the
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. 1 landscaping to protect that.
2 So I don't -- I know there is no interest
3 in putting a pool in a front yard and it would
4 seem really contrary to the character of the
5 neighborhood to put a pool in this subdivision
6 in a front yard. I think that that would
7 certainly affect the character of the
8 neighborhood and we may have had a lot more
9 opposition to a pool in the front than to the
10 pool in the side yard where it is 15 feet from
11 the property line.
12 Again, her setback to her property line,
13 I think we calculated last time to be about
• t 45 f
b
t
i
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14 we are a
ou
ee
25-30 feet. So
n to
a
15 from her house. I respect the comments that
16 have been made. We have tried to address the
17 comments, but it is your job to balance and
18 weigh the comments and find reasonableness. I
19 think we have tried to submit what is a
20 reasonable application and it will ultimately
21 be in your hands. We certainly do not want a
22 pool in a front yard.
23 MRS. DIMETRAIDES: Now, Mrs. Moore said
29 that no way the front yard because they not
25 going to have any privacy, but she has not
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1 stopped to think something about my privacy.
2 It's the same thing. It's not going to be
3 their privacy if they put it in the front, but
9 what about my privacy? They keep on saying
5 that it's my garage, we have everything, all
6 the activities and everything is from the
7 garage, it's the kitchen, it's everything. I
8 would like if you went on the side and saw it,
9 everything goes on there. So it's not -- just
10 because it's the garage, but we do everything
11 there. The garage, the kitchen, so all that
12 street she's going to -- they're going to
13 infringe our privacy, but they don't want to
19 i
th
thi
th
d
h
--
ve up
e same
ng on
e roa
ave
g
15 because they're going to infringe on their
16 privacy, which is not fair. They never think
17 about our privacy.
18 If they want to be nice neighbors they
19 have to accommodate something. Not just put a
20 few shrubs and (inaudible) and that will do
21 it. If they put a huge house on that parcel
22 of land and they taking up all the land, of
23 course there's no room for the pool. But if
29 they put up, like I did, change the house I
25 did, don't have that porch in the back there,
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1 I'm sure there's room for a pool if they want
2 and have it only five feet from the house.
3 They could do this, but they are -- I guess
4 they don't want to do it. They don't care
5 about our neighbors -- about the next door
6 neighbor, they just care about I guess
7 themselves. I'm sorry, but you could see that
8 I am anxious and upset.
9 MEMBER SIMON: I think this Board, many
10 on the Board, more than I, work to try to
11 reach accommodation. You mentioned
12 accommodation. It's sometimes very difficult.
13 We have a very difficult job and I want to
. It's hard to
serious
k
it
t
19 .
very, very
a
e
15 reach an accommodation between people who are
16 diametrically concerned with other people's
17 accommodations and any kind of a compromise
18 because if we could accept the strength of the
19 opinion of people for the pool on the side of
20 the house there doesn't seem to be any concern
21 for accommodation for that. We look for a
22 third way.
23 The Dadourians do not want the pool on
24 the road side of the house. The LWRP and
25 others do not want the pool between the house
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• 1 and the bluff. Something is going to have to
2 give and to some neighbors you might say well
3 the answer would be to have a house without a
4 pool or to have a smaller house. These are
5 major concerns and they're not motivated by a
6 desire for accommodation, but what they're
7 saying is you should cut back your plans so
8 that we can maintain our plans and that goes
9 all the way around.
10 It's a very frustrating situation. If
11 you really want to take as many opinions as
12 possible seriously and reach something and I
13 thought this was going to be a lot easier.
I d
't lik
t
ll
bl
d b
'
14 on
e
o
m rea
y trou
e
ecause
I
15 say you guys are wrong, you're just going to
16 have to eat it and you guys are right or
17 switch this around. I -- what I'm trying out
18 for is somebody to take some kind of a move
19 toward figuring out if there was some way of
20 reaching some kind of give and take
21 accommodations on this. I'm not happy with
22 what I'm hearing because somebody's going to
23 be deeply unhappy if we listen to any one
24 party.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The only thing you
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. 1 could do, Ms. Moore, is to cut into the house
2 at any location, the house is not built,
3 extend the pool a little bit over into the
9 side yard. That's the only thing that could
5 be done on the waterside, still maintaining
6 approximate 100-foot setback.
7 Now, we've seen this done before, it was
8 done on Grandview. It was done in Mattituck
9 off of Woods Road. It's got to be a smaller
10 pool. It's got to be a pool that is modest.
11 MS. MOORE: I appreciate what you're
12 saying. I really do, but keep in mind we
13 could have a house that goes from 15 feet off
id
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f
i
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14 e yar
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orm
ng s
this property l
ne to t
15 on the east side. This house could encompass
16 that entire building envelope.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's correct.
18 MS. MOORE: What we're talking about is a
19 pool that is on grade, that the issue of
20 chlorine fumes I think is absolutely
21 unsubstantiated. I'm sorry, but that that is
22 the first I've heard. We have landscaped this
23 to the maximum extent practical. Do you want
24 us to change the plantings, we will do that.
25 Do you want us to put stock -- cyclone, you
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. 1 know, a fence, a solid fence on the other side
2 of the evergreens, she will see nothing.
3 We're on the beach. The noise of people
9 swimming should be quite comfortable on a
5 beach. So we're -- if it's noise that she's
6 concerned with this is a pool and on the water
7 you could have very loud families on the beach
8 no different than very quiet people in a pool.
9 We have to be -- we have tried very hard.
10 We have now, I guess since the application was
11 first submitted, we have come back over and
12 over with every suggestion that we have made.
13 The objections continue to be adamant to the
14 extent that there is no -- there really is no
15 satisfying these people other than putting the
16 pool on the waterfront side and in violation
17 of LWRP.
18 We would love that. That was choice
19 number one, but it seemed to me, and I take
20 fault for giving that advice, if we should
21 come to you with our first choice of on the
22 water instead of trying to meet the
23 environmental issues first and foremost.
24 Again, I would point out that if we attach
25 this pool to decking we conform. We are not
•
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1 in a side yard, we are conforming and if
2 that's the choice you're giving us, I don't
3 know what to tell you. I mean we have a --
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Just a minute,
5 let's point this out for Ms. Drudge.
6 MS. MOORE: Yeah, we have tried really
7 very hard. I really see no point in
8 continuing to modify a house, which is not a
9 large house. It is taking up a small portion
10 of the building envelope. If you look at the
11 building envelopes of the adjacent homes,
12 really they are very comparable. The house on
13 the east is a long extended ranch or two-story
19 but a long extended building envelope. The
15 neighbor on the west is approximately the
16 same, it's just a matter of design.
17 We have -- they've spent thousands and
18 thousands of dollars getting to this point to
19 design a house they want. It is, the house is
20 not at issue. We are merely talking about the
21 placement of this pool in what is a technical
22 side yard, but conforms to the principle
23 setbacks of this property. We keep losing
29 track of that and I'm sorry, we're at a point
25 now that it's up to my client if he wants to
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1 keep designing when --
2 MR. DADOURIAN: If we go with the
3 decking, we don't need --
4 MS. MOORE: If we go for an enclosed pool
5 with decking around it, there's no variance.
6 If you want us to withdraw the application and
7 enclose this with decking, that's my client's
8 choice and there is absolutely no obligation
9 at that point to put the evergreens. We can
10 put the pool where it was originally proposed
11 because we don't then need a front yard
12 variance. It seems crazy, cut off your nose
13 to spite your face.
14 We are proposing something that we
15 thought was trying to address the concerns
16 that were raised, whether they were reasonable
17 or unreasonable, it will be yours to
18 determine. We have tried very hard. I think
19 we're at a point where it's unfair to my
20 client, given the standards of the zoning
21 variance, to keep going back and forth on
22 issues of what we've already addressed,
23 privacy and the smell of chlorine, which on
24 the sound with the wind and the smell of the
25 water, quite frankly, I've never heard that
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• 1 before and I -- it's unsubstantiated, no
2 science, nothing, it's just an opinion. So I,
3 you know --
4 MEMBER WEISMAN: Just for the record, can
5 you reiterate, cause we have a lot of surveys
6 in front of us and they're not all dated in a
7 clear way, so please just for clarity's sake
8 tell us if you will now, on your amended plan
9 the most current amended plan as proposed now,
10 what is the front yard setback on the proposed
11 pool, side yard setback of the proposed pool
12 and the size of the pool?
13 MS. MOORS: Well, I can give you
14 everything but the front yard setback cause I
15 don't have that written out here. We would
16 have to scale it, but the front yard setback
17 of the house is 30.9. That was the variance,
18 just the house, not the pool.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's on here.
20 MS. MOORS: Yes, okay. The side yard
21 variance, the side yard setback because it's
22 not a variance, again, it's conforming, 15
23 feet. The setback from the 100-foot line was
24 moved forward 5 feet, so again that's not --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: So it's 105 feet --
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1 MS. MOORE: 105 feet for the pool.
2 Again, it's patio area not decking. The
3 setback from the front yard, I can get that
4 for you. I don't -- I wouldn't want to scale
5 this. I don't have the proper --
6 MEMBER WEISMAN: What's the current size
7 of the pool?
g MS. MOORE: About 50-some feet,
9 approximately. Yeah, more or less.
10 MEMBER WEISMAN: What are you saying?
11 MS. MOORE: We're guesstimating it's
12 around 50 feet from the front.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay. What is the size
• l?
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14 e poo
of t
15 MS. MOORE: It's 18 by 36.
16 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you ask Nate
18 to give us the figure?
19 MS. MOORE: Of course.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you sit down,
21 Ms. Drudge has another question. In a minute,
22 Ms. Drudge.
23 Yes? What else, Leslie?
24 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's all I just wanted
25 to ask those measurement numbers and have it
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• 1
2 clear for our consideration.
3 MS. MOORE: Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, Ms.
5 Drudge.
6 MS. DRUEDGE: Do I have to say my name
7 again?
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No.
g MS. DREDGE: I don't know your name,
10 though.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jerry.
12 MS. DRUDGE: I just as a final comment, I
13 like what Jerry said and she totally ignored
. the
modif
t
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t
'
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19 y
ng
o
go
re no
s like we
it. She
15 house. That's the attitude that we're facing
16 and I agree that she could enclose it and I
17 agree she could put it in the front of the
18 house. In both cases, that would be a
19 compromise on her and that is exactly what we
20 are asking; however, she does get the pool and
21 it's a privilege, it's not a right. You don't
22 have to have a pool and I feel that's also an
23 important thing going on here because some
29 people just can't have a pool if they want it
25 or they have to compromise their house in a
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1 way that they might not like. I don't -- even
2 I understand the compromise of enclosing it.
3 If it's enclosed I think -- I don't see any
4 objection from anybody here. We're not
5 meeting objection from the enclosure. The
6 only objection was made by Desi was she didn't
7 agree with the side yard or the front yard. I
g agree with the front yard, but Desi may agree
g with the enclosure, but we haven't been
10 presented with it and I think the least she
11 could do is go through the architectural work
12 of reworking the house and doing it that way
13 to present to the Board to give you a good way
. 19 to make a final decision and we understand
15 that there may be compromise on our end, but
16 we don't feel they've fulfilled the challenge
17 of the compromise.
lg That they should go forward and do the
19 architectural work and show it enclosed or in
20 the front of the house in a modest way or make
21 the house more modest and that's just the way
22 it is. There are plenty of small houses in
23 our area that were built before the big house
24 craze. So even though my house is big, if I
25 wanted to move there right now and someone
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1 said you have to make a smaller house, I think
2 I could make that decision and say okay I'll
3 make my house smaller. That's the way it is.
4 So that's my final statement if, in fact,
5 she's not going to speak again. I may want to
6 respond to it if she does.
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to wrap
8 this up because we have several other hearings
9 to do here. Ms. Moore, that's it?
10 MS. MOORS: Did you want to say
11 something?
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anybody we will
13 allow the record to be open for the next five
. 14 business days if you want to submit a letter,
15 you're welcome to submit a letter. That's my
16 suggestion to the Board. I will allow the
17 record -- if the Board is so inclined, I will
18 ask the Board to allow the record to be open
19 until next -- let's see next Thursday
20 afternoon at 3 p.m.
21 MS. MOORS: Okay.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You are very
23 welcome to submit a letter regarding this
24 hearing, regarding your concerns until that
25 time. Okay? We have taken a significant
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•
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1 amount of testimony on this application,
2 alright, over a period of I think three
3 hearings. We need to close the hearing at
4 this time.
5 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yeah, but (inaudible).
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You want to write a
7 letter concerning -- encompassing everything
8 you said, we have your husband's letter. You
9 read yours, you didn't submit it. Okay.
10 MRS. DEMETRIADES: I write another one.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
12 MS. DRUDGE: What's the last date for
13 submission?
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Thursday at 3 p.m.
15 MS. DRUDGE: Thursday at 3 p.m.
16 MRS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible) another
17 letter?
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You could send me
19 another letter, yeah, sure.
20 MRS. DEMETRIADES: So this hearing is now
21 closed?
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It is closed to all
23 verbal testimony.
29 MEMBER SIMON: Open for a week for
25 written testimony only.
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• 1 MS. MOORE: With respect to my surveyor I
2 don't know that I can get Nate Corwin to give
3 me -- I don't know what his schedule is next
4 week. He may be on vacation, so I will
5 attempt to get you that -- did you still want
6 that side yard setback from Nate Corwin?
7 MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, they need it -
9 -
10 MS. MOORS: Okay, I'll get it to you.
11 I'll call this afternoon or tomorrow morning
12 to Nate, but I don't have control over him.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I understand and
the
awa
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h
19 y
ow
ar
so.
ouse a
how far from the
15 pool is actually from the house.
16 MS. MOORS: Well, that has it right here,
17 it's on the plan.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Oh, it is.
19 MS. MOORS: Yes, it's 7.1 at the stairs
20 and 8.8 at the covered porch.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, okay.
22 MEMBER DINIZIO: Can I just, I just want
23 to make something clear cause the Chairman I
24 think he asked you to do something which was
25 redraw the house.
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1 MS. MOORE: Redraw the house.
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: And you're not willing
3 to do that, right?
4 MR. DADOURIAN: I'm sorry?
5 MS. MOORE: Are you -- do you want to
6 redraw the house?
7 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You can come up and
8 use the microphone.
9 MS. MOORE: You've been asked if you want
10 to redraw the house. I can't make that
11 decision. Thank you.
12 MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm just wondering if
13 the Chairman's expecting that or not.
14 MS. MOORE: I don't think from my
15 comments, but I'll let him decide.
16 MR. DADOURIAN: What is the comment or
17 question?
18 BOARD ASST.: Sir, would you just
19 introduce yourself for the record?
20 MR. DADOURIAN: I'm Greg Dadourian.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: My question was and
22 we've had this before with this 100-foot
23 setback issue, Jimmy jump in anytime you want,
29 okay, we've had people actually physically cut
25 the pool into the house. Okay, meaning
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1 outside but adjacent, contiguous, three feet
2 from, okay, and still meet the 100-foot
3 setback. I have to tell you that it requires
4 some additional foundation work, I'm not a
5 stone man in any way. It was done in
6 Grandview, which is not far from you, and it
7 was done in Mattituck and in both cases they
8 met the 100-foot setback. You will still
9 need, I think, a side yard variance, okay?
10 But the pool would physically be in the front
11 of the house if there was some give and take
12 on your part and I am not here to design your
13 property or tell you anything other than what
• 14 my suggestion would be and I realize that you
15 already have a magnificent plan for this house
16 and it's going to cost you a lot of money to
17 do this, but that is the only thing, the only
18 other option left in this particular --
19 MR. DADOURIAN: And you're suggesting put
20 it in front of the house?
21 MS. MOORS: Yeah, you mean the waterfront
22 side of the house.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The waterfront
24 side.
25 MS. MOORS: Somehow or another
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. 1 redesigning the house so you can put --
2 incorporate the pool into --
3 MEMBER SIMON: Into the rear of the
9 house, in other words.
5 MS. MOORS: Into the waterfront side of
6 the house but you're essentially you're
7 redesigning so you're encapsulating --
8 MR. DADOURIAN: I understand.
9 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's still outside.
10 MS. MOORS: -- the whole house around the
11 pool.
12 MR. DADOURIAN: I understand that. Yeah,
13 alright. Of course we would be -- we looked
. 14 into that already, but I will ask my architect
15 and we will, you know, get back into that and
16 look at that option again. No problem.
17 MEMBER DINIZIO: No, no. My concern --
18 my question is that we leave this hearing with
19 the Chairman thinking that he's going to get a
20 plan based on the questions that he asked and
21 I'm just wondering if that's still required or
22 not. Okay, in other words, the Chairman
23 should answer this question does he still want
24 you to investigate that plan or was your
25 explanation good enough. I think that's -- I
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. 1 don't want, when we're deliberating on this,
2 him to say well he never gave us a plan cause
3 to me it was unclear whether or not the
4 Chairman, you know, wants --
5 MS. MOORS: Or he could submit a plan and
6 you say oh, we really like this and he's spent
7 $10,000.00 with his architect.
8 MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, well that's why I
9 just want to be clear on whether or not that's
10 going to still be required.
11 MR. DADOURIAN: Personally, putting the
12 pool on the road side of the house is not an
13 option. Aesthetically, I think it's a bad
• inion and I won't do
th
t
t'
id
19 my op
s jus
ea,
a
15 that. But I just want to have, my
16 understanding is if we connect the house and
17 it stays where it is and we connect it with
18 decking --
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's Ms. Moore's
20 suggestion.
21 MR. DADOURIAN: What would that entail?
22 Would it entail further --
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I don't know. I
29 can't answer that question because --
25 MR. DADOURIAN: Okay.
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• 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- I don't have a
2 Building Inspector here to answer that
3 question.
4 MR. DADOURIAN: Okay.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I thought clearly
6 based upon Mr. Daniel's statement that my
7 opinion in reference to any other changes on
8 the seaward side of the house was not an
9 option referring to Ms. Moore. So there is a
10 great advantage to the application being here,
11 meaning yourself or your wife, in these
12 situations.
13 MR. DADOURIAN: Right, that's why I'm
•
14 here. Yeah.
15 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The one in
16 Grandview is an extremely substantial house.
17 It was probably built 18 years ago or so and
18 there was a necessity of a setback from the
19 bluff and we said to the applicant come back
20 after you've completed the house. Okay? And
21 a physical bearing pillar off of this house is
22 directly in the center of the pool cause it
23 was a structural member. Okay? They built
24 the pool right around it and I could tell you
25 it's pretty spectacular. Okay.
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. 1 The situation in Mattituck was a very
2 similar situation to what we have right here.
3 Okay? There was some environmental concerns
4 regarding the bluff. Of course 190 feet
5 higher than this, alright, and the neighbors
6 said alright I'm not going to go for a
7 variance you brought in a company that
8 completely took an entire deck out, drove
9 pilings underneath the pool and built a
10 triangular pool right off of his bedroom at
11 the 100-foot mark. Alright. I saw it, it was
12 absolutely spectacular. It was something out
13 of an Architectural magazine as was the one in
• Oka
?
ificent
l
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14 y
.
y magn
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y,
Grandview. Tru
15 But it met those criterias.
16 MR. DADOURIAN: We're not interested in
17 winning any awards, we just want a pool. We
18 just want a pool and I'm --
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I'm just explaining
20 to you how it was done and that was --
21 MR. DADOURIAN: I got you and I'm --
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: -- the only thing
23 I'm suggesting.
24 MR. DADOURIAN: I didn't mean to be
25 sarcastic.
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. 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Leslie, any
2 questions?
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: I'd like to make a
9 comment.
5 We've heard repetitive testimony all the
6 way around from everybody, which is all being
7 taken very seriously by all of us and at this
8 point after three hearings the option is to
9 close the hearing and adjudicate on the basis
10 of what you've applied for. Right now, we're
11 talking about theories. You know, you don't
12 have an amended plan like that, you have one
13 before us.
Um-hmm
DADOURIAN
MR
14 .
:
.
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: I think that it is
16 probably a much better procedure, unless you
17 care to withdraw the application, to at this
18 point close the hearing subject to additional
19 written testimony and vote. Deliberate and
20 vote and if this plan makes it, it makes it.
21 If it doesn't, then you will --
22 MEMBER OLIVA: Go back to the drawing
23 board.
29 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- you know, then
25 you'll go and look at other options. But to
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1 start talking about other design options now I
2 think is -- the only thing we could do, would
3 be to once again keep the hearing open. You
4 could submit yet another amended plan and I
5 think we've done that several times and I --
6 is that something you would be interested in
7 pursuing at this point or would you prefer
8 this hearing be closed and we adjudicate?
9 MR. DADOURIAN: Well, I -- I'm not sure
10 of what happens. I mean if this gets denied
11 will I have an opportunity to submit a
12 different plan?
13 MEMBER OLIVA: Right.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. That's your right.
15 MEMBER OLIVA: Yes.
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: Or you could just join
17 the pool to the house and not even need a
18 variance.
19 MR. DADOURIAN: Well, but I just thought
20 that Jerry said that you would need a variance
21 to do that.
22 MS. MOORE: They're saying, I mean,
23 theoretically, we at least yesterday's rules
24 at the Building Department was that you could
25 attach -- I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be
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. 1 sarcastic, it's just I can't -- I have to base
2 it on a plan and so does the Building
3 Department. You have to give them a plan.
4 Show it to them and see if it conforms with
5 their understanding of the attached to the
6 principle structure --
7 MR. DADOURIAN: Okay, well I -- I don't
8 mind, sir, I don't mind doing that, but I have
9 a -- I respect my neighbors and I don't think
10 they would appreciate if I -- if I just came
11 back and said alright here's the deck.
12 MEMBER SIMON: But you're --
13 MR. DADOURIAN: I don't think that's fair
• 14 to them.
15 MEMBER SIMON: As I understand it, when
16 people are talking about a deck which attaches
17 the pool much of this conversation has to do
18 with leaving the pool on the side of the house
19 and simply connecting it physically to the
20 house and for which no variance would be -- it
21 would be required. On the other hand, I don't
22 know if the neighbors realize the effect of
23 doing that would be --
24 MS. MOORE: No screening.
25 MEMBER SIMON: -- the Dadourians could do
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. 1 what they wanted with that modification, but
2 it would not mitigate at all the --
3 MS. MOORS: Exactly.
4 MEMBER SIMON: -- concerns of the
5 neighbors.
6 MR. DADOURIAN: That's what I just said,
7 yeah. So --
g MEMBER SIMON: The pool would be in
9 exactly the same place and I'm not even sure
10 everybody realizes that.
11 MR. DADOURIAN: Right, that's --
12 MEMBER SIMON: So that is an option you
13 wouldn't, if you decided to do that --
• Ri
ht
DADOURIAN
14 g
.
:
MR.
15 MEMBER SIMON: -- you wouldn't have to
16 come back to us at all.
17 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well there's also
18 something else. The Building Department might
19 require the deck to go entirely around the
20 pool fully enclose it --
21 MS. MOORS: Yes, yeah.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- which means you'd
23 have a set back of less than 15 feet on that
24 other side.
25 MR. DADOURIAN: Okay and then we can make
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1 the pool wider and --
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
3 MS. MOORS: Right, your -- a triangular
4 pool and --
5 MR. DADOURIAN: I don't want, and just,
6 before you just so you know, you know, I guess
7 I get maybe a little offended because they
8 don't know me and they're making -- assuming
9 things about my character that, you know, I'll
10 just sit there and I'll take it cause they
11 don't know me. So I'm not going to get
12 offended by that, but if I do have -- my
13 character does -- if I can make the pool
. er
ool bi
the
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14 ,
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p
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e
bigger, even if I cou
15 I probably won't because out of respect to
16 them I won't do that, but I could do that. I
17 think, you know, I think it's just -- I'm just
18 confused by why we're even discussing this.
19 MEMBER SIMON: First of all, I heard no
20 reflection on your character from anybody.
21 Even the people who love you.
22 MS. MOORS: I don't know one way or
23 another.
29 MR. DADOURIAN: I don't know what's wrong
25 with living in Queens, that's what I -- I --
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1 MEMBER SIMON: If something is a matter
2 of communication on this and so that everybody
3 realizes what your legal options are and
4 whatever people think about you for exercising
5 your legal options is another matter. Now you
6 may be right that they would like you less if
7 you would exercise your legal options and
8 withdrew the application, but that's between
9 you and your neighbors --
10 MS. MOORE: Right.
11 MEMBER SIMON: -- and your God.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: And your wife.
13 MS. MOORE: It seems to me that the
14 reason I responded the way I did to redesign
15 of the house is that I -- it seems to me we
16 have a reasonable application for you to
17 consider and it, you know, do we keep it open
18 and he continues to expend money? I mean we
19 save a little bit of money on the
20 reapplication fees and all of the paperwork
21 all over again of eight copies of everything -
22 -
23 MR. DADOURIAN: If my option is to
24 redesign the house, or put decking --
25 MEMBER SIMON: Yes.
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. 1 MR. DADOURIAN: -- I'm going to go with
2 the decking and I might even make the pool
3 wider.
q MEMBER DINIZIO: Unless you --
5 MS. MOORE: A variance puts everything,
6 puts control over everything with the
7 landscaping and everything else.
g MR. DADOURIAN: It's more limiting. What
g I'm doing is limiting me -- limiting my
10 options as opposed to, you know, my options
11 are greater now for the size of the pool than
12 they would be if I got this variance.
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Don't you need a front
14 yard variance too for the house?
15 MS. MOORE: Only if -- no, no. Yes, I'm
16 sorry.
1~ MEMBER DINIZIO: We'd need to grant that.
18 We would have to grant that, right.
lg MS. MOORE: Yes.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: And certainly when we're
21 weighing our -- making our decision we want
22 the least amount of variances that you can
23 possibly get and certainly if you wanted to
24 build a house on this particular piece of
25 property, you know, you're not going to get a
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1 very wide one if you're going to put a pool in
2 the front yard. You're going to get a 100$
3 variance.
4 MS. MOORE: Oh, to put a pool in the
5 front?
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah.
7 MS. MOORE: Oh, absolutely.
g MEMBER DINIZIO: We're just not going to
9 grant that. That's a principle setback that
10 you have to meet in the front yard.
11 MS. MOORE: It would be out of character
12 for this Board to grant such a variance. I
13 would be shocked, but things have happened.
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Alright, Mrs.
15 Demetriades is the last person to speak. We
16 have to wrap this up.
17 MS. DEMETRIADES: Okay. Well, now I lost
18 my thought.
19 MEMBER DINIZIO: Reduce it to writing.
20 MS. DEMETRIADES: About decking, that
21 means they're going to be closer to the house
22 and they're going to --
23 MS. MOORE: There'll be no screening.
24 MS. DEMETRIADES: -- do (inaudible) I
25 understand?
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• 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right.
2 MRS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible) house and
3 the pool in the back?
q MS. MOORE: No.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, ma'am, on the
6 side.
'7 MEMBER DINIZIO: On the side.
g MEMBER WEISMAN: Just a minute what we
9 are trying to explain is that you talked about
10 a pool that would meet all of the code.
11 Right, that's what you wanted? Something that
12 will meet all of the requirements of the code.
13 They can leave the pool exactly where they are
. 14 proposing it now and meet all the codes by
15 attaching that pool to the house through
16 decking. They don't have to move it. If they
17 do that, then they can withdraw their
18 application and they can put in --
19 MRS. DIMETRAIDES: (Inaudible).
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- exactly -- by the
21 law. Just one second. They will be following
22 the code. They only have to be 15 feet from
23 their property line on the side, which is
24 where they are. If they attach that -- if
25 they keep it 15 feet away, which is where it
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. 1 is now, and they attach it with decking rather
2 than patio, okay, then it is considered
3 attached to the house and they only have to be
4 15 feet away. They do not have to put up a
5 fence. They don't have to -- well they have
6 to put up a fence. They don't have to put up
7 evergreen screening. They don't -- there a
8 lot of things that we're suggesting that they
9 do, including moving it farther from your
10 house forward toward the street, that they
11 would not have to do if they choose to attach
12 it to decking, which means that many of the
13 things would create greater privacy for you
• ld not be
ht
i
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14 , wou
et, r
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and greater qu
15 required of them because this Board would not
16 have the power to make those requirements.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: They wouldn't be
18 here.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: They wouldn't be
20 required.
21 MS. MOORS: Except for the house.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well that's another
23 story.
24 MRS. DEMETRIADES: I'm opposing the
25 location of the pool. If they attach it to
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• 1 the house it's okay?
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, it is.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, that's what we
4 were saying.
5 MEMBER WEISMAN: Because there's a
6 difference, the law says --
7 MEMBER OLIVA: They didn't say that
8 that's what they want, but that's --
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: The law -- the law says
10 --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Shhh. One at a
12 time, please.
13 MRS. DEMETRIADES: What he going to say
14 dible)?
(i
nau
15 MEMBER WEISMAN: No.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, he's not saying
17 anything. It's a matter of right, Mrs.
18 Demetriades.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: They can do it without
20 getting a variance.
21 MRS. DEMETRIADES: If they made a longer
22 house and they put the house smaller the pool
23 smaller --
24 MEMBER OLIVA: No, no, no. The house
25 would not be made smaller.
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1 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's as though they're
2 putting another room --
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Onto the house.
q MEMBER DINIZIO: -- even though it's a
5 pool they would not need a variance for that
6 even though -- as long as it's 15 feet from
7 your boundary. It would be tricky. If the
8 pool is attached it would be as though it
9 wasn't a pool but just any ordinary addition
10 to the side of the house like a room.
11 MEMBER OLIVE Uh-huh, they would not be
12 required to do any screening.
13 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Is this the final
14 thing?
15 MEMBER OLIVA: No, to explain to you.
16 MS. MOORE: They're trying to explain
17 what the choices are.
lg CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We could not agree
lg with you more.
20 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Right? (Inaudible) to
21 the (inaudible)?
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, this is the Building
23 Department that's doing it, not us.
24 MRS. DEMETRIADES: What kind of option do
25 I have now?
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• 1 MEMBER DINIZIO: Ma'am, could I -- ma'am,
2 here's your options as I see them, okay. Now,
3 they could build a house, okay, where that
4 pool is right now and go all the way over to
5 the other side of where they have the house
6 now and they'd still be well within their
7 rights. They would not need a variance before
8 this Board. Now, what -- the reason why
9 they're here is because they want to put
10 cement block down instead of a wood patio
11 around the thing. Now, that's probably just
12 because aesthetically he wants to look at
13 something other than a deck. Now, what he's
• 14 offering is -- what he's offering you is he
15 will say I'm willing to give this up. I'll
16 move my pool over a little bit and I'll put
17 some screening. Okay, I'll plant some bushes
18 and stuff, perhaps offer to put a fence up,
19 maybe help mitigate the noise on your side,
20 okay, if I can have in place of the wood deck
21 some cement block around the pool. Okay,
22 that's basically why he's here.
23 If he had chosen to just take a wood deck
29 and put it around that pool and keep that pool
25 in the same exact area, he would not be before
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1 us. That pool would be built now and so would
2 the house. So you -- your choice is this, you
3 can take the screening, okay, and perhaps a
4 little fence, if you want, to help with the
5 noise or if we turn him down he gets to do it
6 anyway without the screening and with the
7 deck.
g MRS. DEMETRIADES: I have no -- they have
9 the rights then, we have no rights.
10 (Inaudible) that's what (inaudible).
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's his property.
12 MRS. DEMETRIADES: Yeah, but (inaudible)
13 --
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He has the right to
15 code.
16 MR. DEMETRIADES: Excuse me, gentlemen.
17 You don't answer me my first questions. I
18 don't understand too many words. The only
19 thing I'm asking you why you don't permit Mr.
20 Dadourian to put the swimming pool in the back
21 of the house.
22 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We talked about
23 that, because of the environmental issues that
24 --
25 MR. DEMETRIADES: How many feet they
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. 1 supposed to have --
2 MEMBER OLIVA: 100 feet.
3 MR. DEMETRIADES: Doesn't have 100 feet?
4 MEMBER OLIVA: No. No.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: He has 100 feet
6 just for the house.
7 MR. DEMETRIADES: Just for the house.
8 Alright, in order to have that thing I think
9 it's a big mistake there. You know, he wants
10 -- Mr. Dadourian wants to build a big house --
11 how many square feet house he wants to put
12 there?
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: (Inaudible) houses,
w
't k
d
14 .
no
we
on
15 MR. DEMETRIADES: Alright, is tremendous
16 house. He wants to build a big --
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, sir.
18 MR. DEMETRIADES: He wants to build a big
19 swimming pool. He wants to build a big deck
20 and then he doesn't have enough room there to
21 put the -- Mrs. Dadourian, the last time I
22 talk to her, said I love to put the swimming
23 pool in the back of the house. Why you don't
29 swing it in order to put a 6,000 square foot
25 house, to put 5,000 square foot house? That
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. 1 house they're trying to put there doesn't
2 belong to one acre property. This is supposed
3 to be two acres, not even one acre there and
4 he wants to build that kind of house, that
5 kind of swimming pool, that kind of deck?
6 Everything is large. Of course he doesn't
7 have enough room. Mrs. Dadourian she loves to
8 have the swimming pool in the back of the
9 house.
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can I explain
11 something to you? I'm reading from the plan.
12 The house and covered porch is 3,464 square
13 feet. The pool is 640 square feet; for a
f 4
104
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14 ,
n square
oo
age o
ot coverage
total
15 square feet.
16 MEMBER OLIVA: For everything.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Which is for
18 everything for 16.8 percent of lot coverage,
19 which is still 3.5 percent under lot coverage.
20 This is not a 6,000 square foot house; this is
21 not a 5,000 square foot house.
22 MR. DEMETRIADES: I'm saying
23 approximately. I don't know how much --
29 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: It's a 4,000 square
25 foot house. So I mean we -- they don't count
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• 1 a second story (inaudible). So you must
2 understand that that's where we are.
3 Jimmy, you want to say anything?
q MEMBER DINIZIO: No, I just wanted to
5 explain to the gentleman that, you know, every
6 property owner has rights also in accordance,
7 you know, as their neighbors do and our rules
8 are clearly stated, our code. But you can't
9 build a house over 20g of the lot and he's
10 clearly not doing that even with the pool.
11 What I suggested before was that you take the
12 deal. Take the bushes and the possibly the
13 covering on the pool pump because that's not a
14 requirement in the law. I mean we're going to
15 tell him that he has to sound proof that
16 thing. So if they don't get it through us,
17 you don't get it.
lg MRS. DEMETRIADES: We don't have rights.
19 They have the rights.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: They have the right.
21 They do, right, in this case.
22 MRS. DEMETRIADES: My blood pressure now
23 went to 200. Thank you.
29 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need a motion to
25 close this hearing.
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
MEMBER SIMON: I move that we close this
hearing.
MEMBER OLIVA: I second it.
MEMBER DINIZIO: We're not finished
speaking.
MEMBER WEISMAN: There's only one last
thing that needs to be said. We're going to
close the hearing with the decision will be
made in two weeks at a meeting that you're
invited to attend if you so choose. You can't
speak but you can listen to us. That will be
over in the bank upstairs, you know, the
Capital One Bank over here.
CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Above the zoning
office.
MEMBER WEISMAN: The zoning office, do
you know where the zoning office is?
MRS. DEMETRIADES: (Inaudible) office,
right?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes. In that conference
room upstairs we will be discussing this
application.
MRS. DEMETRIADES: Will you be
29 (inaudible)?
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: No. We do not, the law
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• 1 does not require that.
2 (TAPE ENDS - OFF THE RECORD)
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need a motion to
4 reconvene.
5 MEMBER OLIVA: So moved.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Second.
g HEARING #6154 - Henry Traendly and
g Barbara A. Cadwallader
10 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, sir. This was
11 a reconvened hearing. Is there anything you
12 would like to say regarding your new plan?
13 Ms. Weisman is going to speak to you or
ne (inaudible)
b
14 .
er o
address that as num
15 MR. TREANDLY: This is as close as the
16 engineer could get to my marching orders,
17 according to him at least.
18 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would you move the
19 microphone a little closer?
20 MR. TREANDLY: I'm sorry. This is as
21 close as the engineer was able to get in the
22 period of time and it's not exactly what I
23 conveyed to him, but it's pretty close and I
24 figured if there were adjustments required
25 that you would let me know about them and I
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1 guess that having been said --
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: Mr. Treandly, I see
3 you've increased the easterly side yard to 8
4 feet. We still have just a 2-foot side yard
5 on the other side and that is such an enormous
6 variance. I understand that it's only a 35-
7 foot wide lot and it's a skinny shoe-string
8 lot. Tell me what the proposed -- the house
9 is going to be proposed at 26 feet wide. Is
10 the length of the house or the depth of the
11 house 98.5?
12 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, that's correct.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, this is not really
14 a house; this is a rectangle on a piece of
15 paper at the moment. A house would be plans
16 and tell me how high it is, what the roof
17 pitches are. There's very little way we can
18 evaluate the impact on the neighborhood
19 without understanding how big the house is,
20 what it's going to look like. Have you got
21 anywhere with that yet?
22 MR. TREANDLY: I got no -- we actually
23 require your agreement that the dimensions are
24 okay and then we can deal with the final plans
25 and elevations and the --
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1 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright --
2 MR. TREANDLY: -- aesthetics, but it's
3 going to look like the neighborhood.
4 Definitely, cause I wouldn't want to live in
5 something that was inconsistent with the way
6 the neighborhood is at present.
7 MEMBER WEISMAN: Okay, I would think
8 that the minimum width that you could -- are
9 you planning a two-story house?
10 MR. TREANDLY: Yes.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: The very minimum width
12 that a two-story house might be able to handle
13 would be 22 feet wide. That would give you a
. 14 6-foot side yard on the westerly side and an
15 8-foot side yard on the easterly side and
16 you'd get a 22-foot wide footprint. Any
17 reaction to that?
lg MR. TREANDLY: That's very thin according
19 to the engineer and the architectural plans
20 that we looked at. That makes it very
21 difficult to build.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, it doesn't make it
23 difficult to build --
2q MR. TREANDLY: I understand that, but --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: You have to design a
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1 really narrow house. You haven't designed
2 anything yet, right?
3 MR. TREANDLY: We started to, but then we
4 realized that you folks weren't happy with the
5 side yards and I appreciate that. So we're
6 looking for -- I mean it certainly would help
7 a lot if it were more than that. I would --
g CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The overall
9 objective, Ms. Weisman, if you don't mind me
10 (inaudible) in on this.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: No, not at all.
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You need to be able
13 to put a ladder on your property to get to the
• 14 side of the house. In order to do that, I do
15 appreciate the 8 feet on the one side, you
16 need between 5 and 6 feet to do that on the
17 opposite side and that's the purpose. If you
18 want to see what a house like that looks like
19 there is one down on Soundview and that
20 applicant came before us and I believe that's
21 a 90-foot lot. It's about 6 houses before the
22 Soundview and I believe there's a six-foot
23 fence around it. I cannot give you permission
24 to walk on the property, but they're nice
25 people.
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• 1 MR. TREANDLY: This is by Soundview. Is
2 it east or west of Soundview?
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: West of it and it
9 has vinyl siding on it, I believe. That
5 applicant had a very similar problem and that
6 is what he came up with. Excuse me. I am not
7 directing you there, I'm just saying when you
8 go by you'll see it. It's probably about six
9 houses west of Soundview. That was an
10 application before us probably about five or
11 six years ago. He needed to take the entire
12 house down and rebuild it and he did take it
13 down to the absolute ground to put pilings
• 14 underneath it and rebuilt it in that location.
15 Did the best he could with the side yard and
16 I'll leave it at that point.
17 Back to Ms. Weisman.
18 MEMBER WEISMAN: Alright, so you heard
19 what was suggested about -- I mean, it's such
20 a difficult lot to build on.
21 MR. TREANDLY: I do appreciate that and I
22 appreciate your input, particularly the
23 Chairman's suggestion. Is there any way we
24 can get that to 24 because that's really much
25 more ideal as an absolute minimum for a number
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. 1 of reasons. A lot of the standard plans are
2 printed that way with 24 or 25 feet as you
3 probably know. I didn't now that but I was
4 recently advised of that and that would just
5 make it a heck of a lot easier.
y MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, you heard Mr.
7 Goehringer talk about the fact that, as I
8 suggested, a 5 to 6 foot side yard would be
9 the minimum and that's a huge variance. I
10 mean, both of those side yards will require
11 dramatic variances, without them, however, I
12 don't see how you're going to put any house on
13 the property anywhere because it's
• 19 consistently narrow all the way. The neighbor
15 certainly has a great issue with a 2-foot side
16 yard and has written a letter to that affect
17 and has also testified.
18 I'd like you to actually explain a little
19 bit about the proposal to raise the grade
20 toward the seaward side. You're proposing a
21 couple of retaining walls there it looks like.
22 MR. TREANDLY: I think we're going to
23 abandon that, by the way, I don't think we
24 need it. The natural grading will do that.
25 That was the engineer's idea and I didn't like
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• 1 it from day one. I'm being perfectly honest.
2 Actually, I think what is said is this is
3 unnecessary. I don't think the Board of
4 Health would go for this, by the way, and I'm
5 somewhat familiar with their standards, at
6 least I've made myself so. I think that to me
7 that's a non-starter actually.
g MEMBER WEISMAN: I couldn't quite get it.
9 I went down and looked and there was a slope,
10 I don't -- this sort of looks like major work.
11 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, yes it does.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's why I wanted to
13 ask you what that was all about.
• 14 MR. TREANDLY: I think we can definitely
15 eliminate that. I prefer it that way anyway.
16 I'm not comfortable with that and I'm not
17 comfortable that that would get by the, as
18 drawn, that would get by the Board of Health.
19 I have my doubts.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: I think the next step
21 probably you need to revise this survey. You
22 know, to eliminate those originally proposed
23 grade changes with retaining walls and to show
29 us (inaudible) feet in the westerly side yard.
25 MR. TREANDLY: Can we get a little more
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• 1 on the westerly side yard?
2 MEMBER WEISMAN: I don't think --
3 MEMBER SIMON: Can I answer that?
q MEMBER WEISMAN: I'm not comfortable with
5 negotiation.
6 MR. TREANDLY: I'm not used to it either.
7 MEMBER SIMON: We would have to vote on
8 any proposal other than --
g MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, even the
10 suggestion is not a guarantee of anything.
11 MR. TREANDLY: No, I understand.
12 MEMBER WEISMAN: The Board has to
13 deliberate. Jerry, why don't you --
14 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Let me just touch
15 base on that.
16 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, sir.
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: The gentleman who
18 did this work and did it on a plan. This is a
19 site plan, not a survey.
20 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, sir.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: You had a survey
22 done to show that the width of the building
23 area was greater than what he is anticipating.
24 Okay? You know, by a licensed surveyor. You
25 may find a foot or two more in that general
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r~ 1 building area.
2 MR. TREANDLY: I know that this shows 38
3 feet.
4 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: If you're showing
5 38 feet well there's a couple of feet for one
6 way or another that we might be able to talk
7 about a foot or two.
g MEMBER DINIZIO: I think that, well he
9 can't build a house that's going to be 10 feet
10 wide. He's going to need a variance.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: No, we talked about
12 22 foot wide.
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. Right. I live
14 in a house that's 21 feet wide. Okay, raised
15 two children there and me and my wife and we
16 fit quite comfortably. I think that this lot
17 has a lot of constraints to it. You know, 22
18 feet is not, in my mind, a huge restriction
19 when we're talking about the size of the
20 variance that we're giving. I understand that
21 this is a 35-foot lot. I suppose that it's a
22 buildable lot.
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: Um-hmm.
24 MEMBER DINIZIO: I mean, I suppose we've
25 determined that you could build something on
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• 1 here and it may need some variances, but I
2 just wanted to tell you that I live quite
3 comfortably in a house that was 21 feet for 30
4 years now.
5 MEMBER SIMON: Can I speak?
6 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, sir.
7 MEMBER SIMON: There are serious
8 constraints. I mean we heard some of the
9 history last time. This lot is 35 feet, I
10 guess there never -- I'm not sure there ever
11 was a house, resident in that house in recent
12 years in any case. So we have a 35 foot lot.
13 MR. TREANDLY: Excuse me, sir, it's
the water
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15 MEMBER SIMON: 38 foot.
16 MR. TREANDLY: That's more likely the
17 actual dimension.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Whatever we call it, we're
19 limited by its size. If it were 19 feet and
20 even if it were legally buildable then you'd
21 have to build basically a little tiny cottage.
22 Those are the constraints under which we're
23 working and if your builder says they cannot
29 build a 22-foot house on this particular lot
25 and you can't figure out any more than that,
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• 1 then something else would have to be built.
2 There is no guarantee that a house of a
3 particular size can be built on a very small
9 lot, otherwise we would be recommending
5 variances so that someone could build on a 12-
6 foot lot. Okay, so you just have to work
7 around that and I'm not hearing anyone
8 suggesting that there's much of a chance of
9 getting that side -- west side variance to be
10 reduced further than what Leslie has offered
11 and we haven't even voted on that, but I think
12 somehow or other, yes, you should be able to
13 build something on that lot and you're going
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to have to go
15 designer and figure out what you can do. It
16 is legally buildable provided it is done
17 within those constraints and, yes, you can get
18 and reasonably expect the variances that are
19 necessary to build that, but certain kinds of
20 variances will not be granted, such as the
21 variance of a 2-foot setback on that side.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: Now, you also need a
23 front yard setback variance.
24 MR. TREANDLY: Yes.
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: You're proposing it at
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1 20 feet.
2 MR. TREANDLY: We initially moved it
3 closer to the road based on your suggestion
4 the last hearing to elongate the building and,
5 you know, compensate somewhat for the loss in
6 volume by giving you the side yards you wanted
7 and by elongating it.
g MEMBER WEISMAN: You made it longer
9 because you made it narrower.
10 MR. TREANDLY: Yes.
11 MEMBER WEISMAN: And in order to keep the
12 setback from the bay, you pushed it forward
13 toward the street. You're proposing a 20-foot
14 front yard setback, an 8-foot easterly side
15 yard and we are now discussing a 6-foot
16 westerly side yard of a 22-foot wide house.
17 Eliminating the retaining wall showing on this
18 site plan, right? Just to recap.
19 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, okay. You're right
20 on target with what you said, yes.
21 MEMBER WEISMAN: And you're willing to go
22 back to a surveyor not an engineer and --
23 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, right and if we use
24 the --
25 MEMBER WEISMAN: -- see exactly where you
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
can tweak those dimensions and produce another
iteration of an amended application.
MR. TREANDLY: Yes. I think I got it.
So you're looking for 5-6, see if the surveyor
will confirm the original drawing with the 38
feet and 8 feet on the easterly side. Is that
basically it?
MEMBER WEISMAN: 8 foot and 6 foot --
MR. TREANDLY: Yeah and we'll get rid of
the retaining wall.
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, show us what the
most current thinking is and then we'll have
the setback situation at least sorted out.
The next step would be fighting about the
variances and I would certainly, before I
would be really comfortable entertaining a
final decision, I'd like to see the plans, but
if you have --
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN
MEMBER OLIVA:
MEMBER WEISMAN
Board of Health approval.
Pardon?
Board of Health approval.
Yeah, Board of Health
approval.
MEMBER OLIVA
(Inaudible) final?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yeah, I'd like to see
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 24, 2008
architectural plans, elevations and plans.
MR. TREANDLY: You want to see a full
architectural plan?
MEMBER WEISMAN: Yes, because it's -- the
side yards are one kind of variable, but the
side yards in part are determined by the
height of the structure, the shadows it casts
on neighbors, you know, the roof pitches, and
a whole range of other things.
MR. TREANDLY: I think we actually put --
there is an elevation drawing -- there is a
front elevation drawing in the application.
MEMBER SIMON: We'll need side
elevations, too.
MEMBER DINIZIO: Yeah, but that's not on
a 22-foot house.
MEMBER WEISMAN:
MEMBER DINIZIO:
MEMBER WEISMAN:
That was on a bigger --
Yeah.
That was on the original
MEMBER DINIZIO:
right?
The first proposal
MR. TREANDLY: No, I believe it was on
this one. It was supposed to be, anyway.
MEMBER DINIZIO: But if you're getting
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• 1 our drift, we're going to need, in order to
2 make a decision we're going to need to have
3 elevations, whole architectural plans, at
4 whatever setback we approve. I mean because
5 we can't approve it, right?
6 BOARD ASST.: We had building diagrams
7 and elevations, but they weren't full
8 architectural.
9 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right and they weren't -
10 - they're certainly not what we're discussing
11 now as far as the size and how wide the house
12 is.
13 MR. TREANDLY: Okay.
14 MEMBER WEISMAN: Well, without creating,
15 because we can't, we have to have the full
16 information in front of us and we have to
17 deliberate, so having said that a public
18 hearing is not really a negotiation. We're
19 not telling you that's what you're going to
20 get.
21 MR. TREANDLY: No, I appreciate that.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: But on the other hand
23 this guidance will certainly be a kind of a
24 collaboration in which the likelihood of a
25 positive response makes it worth your while to
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. 1 go the next step and to develop those plans.
2 In other words, we are trying to work with you
3 because it is a building lot and it is a very
4 difficult building lot and will require very
5 substantial variances. So in order to protect
6 the public we have to be sure that the house
7 that you're proposing is one that we
8 understand. So that's what I'm saying.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: The other problem we
10 have -- Jerry will you --
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yes, I -- we are
12 filled completely for the month of August. So
13 we would have to put it on for September.
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MR. TREANDLY: O
15 sure I have the significant additional issues.
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Hold on one second.
17 BOARD ASST.: Mr. Treandly got a phone
18 call yesterday afternoon and he was going to
19 explain it to the Board.
20 MR. TREANDLY: Yes, I got a call at 9:30
21 yesterday afternoon from the Building
22 Department saying they think there's an issue
23 with the single and separate title policy I
24 gave them, which I believe to be good. I will
25 go on record and say that, and they admit
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1 this, they've had it for over two years and
2 during that considerable period of time to
3 find out on the eve of my hearing with the
9 Zoning Board, I'm not complaining, this is how
5 it is and I'll have to deal with it, there's a
6 likelihood and that's the second half of this
7 and I told Linda this morning that I would
8 come in and confess this and I also told Mr.
9 (Inaudible) that I said I would make sure that
10 they are aware that it's more likely than not
11 that, it's not final yet, it's not in writing
12 and it's not dispositive at this point, but it
13 could come down that way. We're waiting to
h
did
14 you
y
hear back from the title company w
15 say it was since you had all the information.
16 There's another issue related to that that the
17 --
18 MEMBER SIMON: Excuse me, what is more
19 likely than not?
20 MR. TREANDLY: The fact that they will
21 say there's a problem with it in which case
22 they -- I'm getting a little ahead of myself -
23 - they recommended that we go for a waiver,
29 which --
25 BOARD ASST.: It's a potential merger.
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1 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's a potential
2 merger issue.
3 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'm
4 sorry, I --
5 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: The Building
6 Department came to me a day or two ago and
7 told me the single and separate search and it
8 had not been, the issue of a potential merger
9 had not been caught because apparently one
10 person used two different names and so that's
11 why it wasn't caught. But it became clear
12 when someone took a closer look at it that
13 this person might be the same person and so
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een a merger
ssue.
ave
there may
15 think that they were asking the applicant to
16 clarify whether the person was the same person
17 or a different person. If it is the same
18 person there may be a merger issue and you may
19 have to --
20 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah, I responded
21 immediately. I said yes, it is the same
22 person. Actually the person uses her maiden
23 name for business and for healthcare and
24 everything else. So it's actually the same
25 person but not -- what I'm saying this wasn't
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1 a fabricated alternative.
2 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Nobody suggests
3 that.
4 MR. TREANDLY: No, she was just using a
5 (inaudible).
6 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: But I guess that
7 was the reason why it wasn't picked up.
8 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah.
9 MEMBER SIMON: A waiver with which side?
10 The west side?
11 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I couldn't tell
12 you.
13 MEMBER WEISMAN: Do we know what lot it
• 19 ith?
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15 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah, the lot that it
16 would have merged with has been sold.
17 MEMBER SIMON: Which lot is that?
18 MR. TREANDLY: It's the one to the
19 eastern side.
20 MEMBER WEISMAN: To the east.
21 MEMBER SIMON: To the east.
22 MEMBER WEISMAN: (Inaudible) that quite a
23 long time ago.
24 MR. TREANDLY: And that lot has been sold
25 so there's no -- I mean there is not -- that
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• 1 was over three years ago so there hasn't been
2 any single and separate issue since 2005. But
3 nonetheless, if it existed for a period of
4 time I understand what the code says and I did
5 speak to -- I asked the Building Department
6 for their recommendation. I was so bold as to
7 ask them what, you know, they were
8 cooperative. I said what would you recommend?
9 They said you have two administrative avenues
10 of relief. One is by waiver, the other one is
11 subdivision. I said what would you recommend
12 and they said a waiver would be much better
13 particularly since you've moved along with the
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15 They said continue with this, with what you
16 have already and treat the other one as an
17 additional variance. So I'd like to share
18 that with you as well.
19 MEMBER WEISMAN: How do we proceed then?
20 What are we waiting for at this point?
21 MEMBER SIMON: The application of a
22 waiver (inaudible) of a wait. We didn't get a
23 decision yet.
24 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That was my
25 suggestion only because we don't have any room
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• 1 in August anyway.
2 MEMBER SIMON: Why don't we -- we have to
3 be on hold anyway.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We have to be on
6 hold. Let's reconvene this in September based
7 upon what we know and, if he needs to crank up
8 another application, then he'll have to submit
9 another application.
10 MEMBER SIMON: Right, he can be notified
11 and --
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We can hold this
13 one in abeyance then until he can deal with
•
19 that one.
15 MEMBER SIMON: He can during that period
16 of time as things become clear and that it's
17 been (inaudible) and maybe (inaudible) maybe
18 he makes a new application by September
19 (inaudible).
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: That's right.
21 MR. TREANDLY: I would like to keep the
22 two applications separate if --
23 MEMBER WEISMAN: That's fine.
29 MR. TREANDLY: -- that'll meet with your
25 approval. It wouldn't pay, according to the
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• 1 Building Department, to start everything from
2 scratch all over again.
3 MEMBER WEISMAN: Right.
4 MR. TREANDLY: So I'd like to deal with
5 the issues you've brought before me and try to
6 deal with those, perhaps put a submission
7 earlier just so you could, take a look at it
8 and see if we're getting it right and we'll
9 deal with the zoning -- I'm sorry, the waiver
10 issue when and if it comes to fruition that
11 there indeed has, in the eyes of the Town
12 Attorney, been a merger of the properties.
13 BOARD ASST.: How soon would you file an
• i
14 ver?
application if you had to on the lot wa
15 MR. TREANDLY: Almost immediately because
16 I feel that we need to --
17 BOARD ASST.: So do you want the hearing
18 to go on first or the (inaudible) lot right
19 now in the way you've been before us if
20 they've made that decision already. We don't
21 know if they've made that decision yet.
22 MR. TREANDLY: Right, you know as of
23 midday today I heard nothing yet. I don't
24 think there'll be any final decision because
25 the title company is still involved and
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i 1 they've been asked for input. I've contacted
2 them myself and they'll address this. That'll
3 be dispositive I imagine.
4 MEMBER SIMON: (Inaudible) anything until
5 it's resolved.
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: Could I ask a question
7 about that? If that arose during the course
8 of this hearing, Kieran, wouldn't then we --
9 couldn't then we now require a new single and
10 separate from them instead of -- you know,
11 what I mean, then we're satisfying ourselves
12 within this hearing.
13 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: We always get back
-- the
the bod
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15 only person that can make a determination
16 whether it's a recognized lot or not, you
17 know, we need something from the Building
18 Department. Right now there's nothing, but
19 I'm expecting that they're going to issue a
20 Notice of Disapproval, sometime soon, saying
21 it's not a recognized lot because there's been
22 a merger.
23 MR. TREANDLY: Excuse me. The
24 terminology is significant. It is a
25 recognized lot, okay, but is it's been by
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. 1 operation of law it's been merged. It's
2 definitely recognized. It's been recognized
3 since 1946.
4 MEMBER SIMON: Unless it's merged in
5 which case it's no longer.
6 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: I'm not going to
7 parse words about that.
8 MEMBER DINIZIO: Well, I'd like to know
9 that. You're saying that we can't discover
10 this in our hearing and then say oh, we don't
11 think it's a -- we can't do that?
12 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Not until it's
13 before you, I don't think. It's not
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15 before you.
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: My concern was we can't
17 discover what we know.
18 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Right. Right.
19 MEMBER DINIZIO: We're going to let the
20 Building Inspector do his job, which is that's
21 what it is.
22 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah, they would. They
23 would make a determination. It was
24 adversarial, in fact, it was --
25 MEMBER DINIZIO: A mistake somewhere
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1 along the line.
2 MR. TREANDLY: Somebody let something
3 fall through the cracks and it happened so --
4 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: It's not my job to
5 give you advice, but sometimes I make a
6 mistake of giving it out. You may want to not
7 completely dismiss the avenue of subdivision
8 because, at present, this Board has been
9 applying a strict test for granting waivers of
10 merger and I know that there is discussion to
11 legislatively to relax that, but until that
12 happens it hasn't happened. So you may want
13 to, you know, think about that option, you
14 know, with your advisors and --
15 MR. TREANDLY: Okay.
16 BOARD ASST.: Do you want me to --
17 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Subdivision and you
18 would need an area variance.
19 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah. No, I understand
20 that.
21 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: And this Board
22 would be the Board you would come to for a
23 potential area variance, if they were so
29 inclined to grant it.
25 MR. TREANDLY: And then who would I have
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• 1 to deal with the Planning Board for the --
2 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Yes. I'm not
3 saying it's an easy golden sidewalk or
4 whatever, but I'm just saying that that's a
5 decision you have to think about.
6 MR. TREANDLY: Yeah, it's difficult for
7 me to determine as a layperson whether or not
8 one avenue is fraught with problems and one
9 isn't. Just I can -- I know what the code
10 says. I understand it fairly well.
11 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Well, you could
12 feel free to call our Town Attorney's office
. 13 or come by and, short of telling you what to
14 do, I'll just sort of lay out what might be
15 before you in each --
16 MR. TREANDLY: Okay.
17 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: Alright.
18 MR. TREANDLY: Alright, thank you. Thank
19 you for the input.
20 ASST. TOWN ATTORNEY: You're welcome.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Can we recess this
22 hearing tentatively for the September meeting?
23 BOARD ASST.: Yes.
24 MEMBER SIMON: So moved.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We need a date here
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1 on that. September 25 --
2 MR. TREANDLY: August?
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: September.
4 MR. TREANDLY: I'm sorry, September.
5 BOARD ASST.: 25th and at 2:45 p.m.
6 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 2:45 p.m., who's
7 making the motion?
8 MEMBER SIMON: I am.
9 MEMBER WEISMAN: Michael moved. I
10 seconded.
11 MR. TREANDLY: September 25?
12 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: 25, at 2:45.
13 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
15 HEARING #6156 - Eve Seber and Carlo Voelker
16 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: We're going to open
17 the hearing. This is, again, a carryover
18 hearing, 6156. I do have to run out for one
19 second. This is Jim's application, however,
20 you are going to present some testimony as
21 opposed to -- are you going to just drop it
22 and run or are you going to talk?
23 MR. GORMAN: No, I would like to talk
24 about it.
25 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
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1 BOARD ASST.: Would you like me to start
2 or --
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Yeah, why don't you
4 start.
5 BOARD ASST.: Could you give your name
6 for the record?
7 MR. GORMAN: My name is Bill Gorman on
8 behalf of Eve Seber and Carlo Voelker.
9 At our last hearing there were
10 suggestions and requests made and on the cover
11 page you see I've written it down into
12 sections.
13 BOARD ASST.: I'm not hearing you. Sorry.
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14 l see on t
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MR. GORMAN: You
15 that I've broken it down into sections and
16 some of them are quite minor, just additions
17 and modifications to the survey, which we've
18 done. One of the larger issues, I felt, was
19 the neighbor's letter that accompanied the
20 last -- accompanied the original application
21 and they were upset with some of our design
22 plans and I subsequently met with them and
23 they sent another letter now supporting our
29 project after we made some plans and
25 agreements to the site planning and screening
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ZBA Town of Southold - July 29, 2008
1 and that sort of thing and I've gone into a
2 little bit of detail regarding that.
3 For the pool house you asked us to
4 provide plans with the septic plan, so we did.
5 We designed a bathroom in that existing
6 building and we got a letter of denial from
7 the Building Department. It was an amended
8 denial for this project, pending Health
9 Department approval for the pool house. So
10 that's in here as well. We do have a full-
11 blown landscape screening and planting plan
12 and on the house plans we added a footing plan
13 for the proposed rear deck cause that was one
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15 shown for the rear deck and I imagine that's
16 because we were close to this side yard and
17 also we were close to the wetlands.
18 I found the most difficult thing to
19 address was Mr. Dinizio's reasons why our
20 plans are more suitable for the area than the
21 existing structure. Thank you for that
22 exercise. So what I did I took a little
23 safari down the creek in my kayak and took
24 pictures of all of the houses and you'll find
25 in here, along with the tax map, my
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1 chronological photo essay of each house along
2 that creek as we go down starting from the
3 west to the east. The only one that is not in
4 order is the first one and that shows a barn
5 that you can't see. So I circled it, but that
6 barn exists and you can see that barn seven
7 months out of the year and that happens to be
8 right next door to the property that we're
9 building on and that barn actually was what
10 began our design process in making the Seber
11 house and the Seber design look like a barn
12 and an old barn at that. So we felt that we
13 were tying into something that was already
14 part of the area.
15 I think Mr. Dinizio was concerned that it
16 was cottage community and, in fact, there are
17 cottages, but as you go farther and farther
18 down the creek these cottages get larger and
19 larger until you hit the point at the end of
20 Pine Neck Road, the most western point of Pine
21 Neck Road, and the houses are quite large.
22 There's multiple buildings. There's thousands
23 of square foot structures and I can't believe
29 my printer did so well, by the way, on these.
25 I'm constantly amazed at what we can print now
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• 1 on our computer. Anyway, so that was the one
2 I struggled the most.
3 The second one Mr. Dinizio also asked to
9 talk about renovating the property versus
5 tearing it down and moving it and I submitted
6 an alter -- a foundation plan, an alteration
7 to a foundation plan and really what we're
8 doing is we're adding crawl space. We're
9 adding frost walls and crawl space to existing
10 crawl space and we're just making a straight
11 line in the foundation to cut the wedge off.
12 I don't know if you see that on drawing one.
13 We're just cutting a -- we're getting rid of
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the wedge and we
15 straight foundation line, and then we're
16 adding crawl space.
17 It's really not a terribly costly
18 proposal. We are going to keep the entire
19 first floor, we keep the majority of the
20 exterior walls, except where we have to add
21 onto the new crawl space areas. So if we were
22 to have to go in and tear this whole thing
23 out, rip out the whole foundation, you know,
24 we're at least $35-40,000.00 in removal and
25 getting rid of the concrete and crushing it
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1 and backhoe fees and all that, many dumpsters
2 of debris --
3 MEMBER DINIZIO: Destroying the grade.
4 MR. GORMAN: It'll be just a mess. I
5 mean, and then we would have to put a whole
6 new foundation in and a whole new first floor
7 and all the walls and we figure, you know,
8 roughly that's about $150-160,000.00 cost
9 added on to the project.
10 So I think just a couple of notes
11 regarding the modifications of the survey. We
12 actually, there was some question about
13 whether or not we could access the property on
.
14 both sides. We approached the neighbor on the
15 east, the Burnhams, they were the ones who
16 wrote the letter, and they agreed to have us
17 do our screening on their side of the property
18 so they can maintain and regulate the height.
19 So they can let those trees grow as high as
20 they'd like to and also that provides us
21 access to get between the fence and the house
22 if we remove the stairs, which we did. So now
23 we can get a backhoe back there to drain that.
24 On the other side, we were going to do a
25 reinforced concrete area over the patio so
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1 that we could -- and removable fence section
2 on either side so we could drive a backhoe
3 through there and not damage the pool patio.
4 So that let us get back to -- get to the rear
5 of the property on both sides because you
6 can't -- you can't access either side from one
7 side. You have to be able to get around on
8 both sides because of the grade back there.
9 Regarding the setback variance that we're
10 requesting, you can see that we -- I don't
11 know if you can see that, but if you take out
12 the house plans, we provided a notch in the
13 deck. Actually, it's shown on the survey and
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15 certain way so that we didn't have to do an
16 angle and we didn't have to get any closer
17 than the 8.5 feet that's existing now and so
18 we just did a little notch to keep that deck
19 line straight and everyone seemed to be happy
20 with that, hopefully, you will be too. The
21 reduction on the deck didn't have any affect
22 on the area variance, so we're still -- it
23 did, it knocked 0.2~ off, so we're actually
24 seeking a 0.6% relief now on the area
25 variance.
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. 1 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Could you give us
2 that again?
3 MR. GORMAN: We took out about 64 square
4 feet of the deck and that translated into 0.2g
5 of a difference in our original area variance
6 relief, coverage relief.
7 BOARD ASST.: What's the new total on
8 this?
9 MR. GORMAN: 20.6.
10 BOARD ASST.: 20.6. It was at 20 --
11 MR. GORMAN: 20.8, correct.
12 BOARD ASST.: Okay.
13 MR. GORMAN: And I went in after the last
14 hearing and I listened to the tapes, I wrote
15 everything down, and I'm quite certain I got
16 everything. So unless you all wrote anything
17 or have any recollection?
18 MEMBER DINIZIO: You did a good job.
19 MR. GORMAN: Thank you.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: And I think that's quite
21 a compromise for the neighbor to allow you to
22 put the trees on their property.
23 MR. GORMAN: Well, they get to pick what
29 they want, too. We're not anxious to hear
25 what that is, that's to be determined, but --
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• 1 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay, I think that's
2 very neighborly of you and --
3 MEMBER OLIVA: Who's paying for it?
4 MR. GORMAN: We are.
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: They are.
6 MEMBER SIMON: I read something about the
7 tree that's going to be saved that would
8 otherwise be chopped.
9 MR. GORMAN: Well, there was a tree that
10 -- well, we weren't going to chop any trees
11 that weren't dead. There's one tree that you
12 can stick your arm in and that --
13 MEMBER SIMON: That's the one off to the
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15 MR. GORMAN: Correct.
16 MEMBER SIMON: And that's dead I take it?
17 MR. GORMAN: That's going to go.
18 MEMBER SIMON: Going to go, alright.
19 MR. GORMAN: And they have trees on their
20 property, by the way, that is in our new
21 screening area that we'll probably end up
22 removing as well. So they've got some trees
23 that they having taken out.
24 MEMBER SIMON: There are no large live
25 trees being cut?
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1 MR. GORMAN: No. No.
2 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Ruth, do you have
3 any questions?
4 MEMBER OLIVA: No.
5 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Would anybody in
6 the audience like to speak on behalf of this?
7 No. Anything the Board would like to address?
8 I think it's pretty concise, is it not?
9 Therefore, we'll accept your response and ask
10 for a resolution. I'll make the resolution to
11 close the hearing and reserve decision until
12 later.
13 All in favor?
14 BOARD: Aye.
15 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
17 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, the last
18 hearing of the day is Scourakis, #6157, Ms.
19 Moore.
20 MS. MOORE: Thank you. Patricia Moore, I
21 have Mr. Scourakis, John, with me. He
22 actually did all the hard work, initially,
23 and I'm stepping in just a little extra help.
29 We submitted, based on comments that he heard
25 and was responding to at the last meeting.
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1 This is an existing house that, as you know,
2 is being raised in order to replace the
3 foundation. It's being renovated, the
4 existing portion, second floor renovation,
5 with additions and the rest. The existing
6 setback on the east side is 6.3. The old
7 garage, the existing garage is 11.5, but
8 that's being demolished, so there was a
9 suggestion to bring more conformity to the
10 side yard where the building is being
11 demolished and that would be the garage area.
12 So he had submitted a new survey with a
13 15-foot setback to the new house new addition
14 and portion of the garage and elevation so you
15 could see what it would look like ultimately
16 when it was all done.
17 I'm here just to answer questions because
18 I think he pretty much -- you had a lengthy
19 variance hearing already. So I'll respond to
20 any questions you might have.
21 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Jim, any questions?
22 MEMBER DINIZIO: I just wanted to get
23 further clarification. The western side
29 setback is now 15 feet, is that correct?
25 MS. MOORE: Yes. The -- because it's all
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1 new construction.
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's all new
3 construction.
4 MS. MOORE: Yes.
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, and where is the
6 footprint, to what extent is the footprint
7 increased in -- with this --
8 MS. MOORE: Well, actually the footprint,
9 the overall lot coverage is decreasing.
10 MEMBER DINIZIO: Overall lot coverage is
11 decreasing?
12 MS. MOORE: Overall, yeah, because it was
13 -- right, there were existing structures,
• 14 decks. All of the structures totaled 19.1$.
15 The proposed structure, which is a
16 consolidation of the house brings it down to
17 17°s. So it is not a lot coverage issue. They
18 are conforming.
19 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. So the original,
20 I have seen only -- the only Note of
21 Disapproval I have is the one that was issued
22 on March 17th, I believe.
23 MS. MOORE: Yes, this is alternative
24 relief rather than a new Notice of
25 Disapproval.
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1 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, this is
2 alternative relief and that's all written in
3 the documents, which we just recently
4 received.
5 MS. MOORE: Yes, on July 17th I did two
6 things. I submitted the letter including the
7 survey and the new el evations reflecting that
8 modification to the width, length of the
9 building.
10 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
11 MS. MOORE: And I also responded to LWRP.
12 Pardon me.
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right. This is what I
14 want to see, it must be in here somewhere,
15 your response to the LWRP.
16 MS. MOORE: Yes, it's here.
17 MEMBER DINIZIO: Where in the document --
18 MS. MOORE: Well, you know, I have an
19 extra copy, if you'd like.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: Great. I was rooting
21 through these things last night and I was
22 drowning in paper.
23 MS. MOORE: I don't have another survey,
24 but --
25 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. No, the survey I
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i 1 have.
2 MS. MOORS: Okay.
3 MEMBER DINIZIO: This I do have. Okay,
9 great.
5 MS. MOORS: Oh, that was it.
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: So the 62-foot setback
7 is from the coastal erosion line?
8 MS. MOORS: It is from the top of the
9 bluff on the adjacent easterly parcel. The
10 top of bank and coastal erosion line really
11 has a very small portion of it on this subject
12 parcel. It is diagonally across on the
13 adjacent parcel and there are homes obviously
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15 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
16 MS. MOORS: So we are measuring on a
17 diagonal on someone else's property. So one
18 of my comments in the letter back was we have
19 no issue with non-turf buffer. I think -- I'm
20 sorry, yeah, non-turf vegetated buffer
21 landward of the top of the bluff, but our
22 portion is maybe 50, not even 50 feet, maybe
23 50 feet. The rest of it is on someone else's
24 property. You can't condition on another
25 person's property.
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. 1 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay. I'm going to be
2 writing this I'm going to go out --
3 MS. MOORE: I figured that's why you
4 needed the --
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, I was just coming
6 in as Mr. Scourakis was driving out and I
7 walked around and tried to make some sense of
8 it and I'm continuing to work on it.
9 MS. MOORE: Okay. I think very
10 importantly, the house is there and the
11 garage. All the structures are there and it's
12 in need of upgrades and --
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
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15 crucial here. So --
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's going to be lifted
17 up.
18 MS. MOORE: It is going to be lifted up,
19 yes.
20 MEMBER DINIZIO: Then the same house is
21 going to be set back again on the foundation.
22 MS. MOORE: Well, keep in mind the
23 elevations are going to change. You're going
24 to, you know, when you do construction --
25 MEMBER DINIZIO: Not the same house, it's
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1 --
2 MS. MOORS: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
3 BOARD ASST.: It's a new foundation.
4 MS. MOORS: A whole new foundation, yes.
5 MEMBER DINIZIO: And then the house is --
6 MS. MOORS: Gets set back down on the new
7 foundation and then you have to renovate and
8 expand the existing, but keep in mind that,
9 you know, the siding and things have to meet
10 current code. So --
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: Yes.
12 MS. MOORS: -- it's not pretty.
13 MEMBER DINIZIO: Is the (inaudible) line
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15 same as the old foundation. It's going to be
16 (inaudible) a little bit?
17 MS. MOORS: Well, on the existing portion
18 of the house, yes. It's in kind and place.
19 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right, okay.
20 MS. MOORS: But it extends out and --
21 because the old house had a different -- it
22 had a breezeway and garage.
23 MEMBER DINIZIO: Right.
24 MS. MOORS: And other structures, so it's
25 all been consolidated.
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• 1 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's going to be very
2 hard to live in the house while this is going
3 on, I assume.
4 MR. SCOURAKIS: It's probably going to be
5 unlivable.
6 MEMBER DINIZIO: I'm sorry?
7 MR. SCOURAKIS: It's probably going to be
8 unlivable.
9 MEMBER DINIZIO: That's right.
10 MR. SCOURAKIS: Okay.
11 MEMBER DINIZIO: I think that's what I
12 need. I don't have any further questions.
13 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: There was an issue
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15 Somebody just said.
16 MEMBER DINIZIO: Hay bales? I think that
17 was the last one.
18 MS. MOORE: No, it was a non-turf buffer
19 that was what we were talking about.
20 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay.
21 MS. MOORE: Non-turf we can deal with on
22 our own property.
23 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Right, which is the
24 last 50 feet towards that --
25 MS. MOORE: It's a triangular piece and
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. 1 it's that small portion, so yeah.
2 MEMBER DINIZIO: Okay.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Anyone else on the
4 Board any questions on this applicant?
5 MEMBER OLIVA: You have new leaders and
6 gutters on the house?
7 MS. MOORS: We will have to, yes.
8 MEMBER OLIVA: Now?
9 MS. MOORS: Now, I don't know. Leaders
10 and gutters?
11 MR. SCOURAKIS: Yes. No dry wells.
12 MS. MOORS: No dry wells.
13 MR. SCOURAKIS: No dry well system, just
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15 MEMBER DINIZIO: But there will be.
16 MS. MOORS: There will be.
17 MEMBER OLIVA: There will be, that's what
18 I mean.
19 MS. MOORS: Yes. Landward.
20 MR. SCOURAKIS: Actually, we're going to
21 do it all around the entire house landward and
22 seaward.
23 MEMBER DINIZIO: I don't have any
29 questions.
25 MEMBER OLIVA: No.
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• 1 MEMBER DINIZIO: It's pretty
2 comprehensive.
3 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I guess we are
4 ready to close the hearing. Anybody else like
5 to speak?
6 MS. MOORE: Just for the record I have
7 his wife here with their one-year-old and he's
8 here. So, John is here. You can all say
9 hello and another one on the way so they need
10 this house sooner than later.
11 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: Okay, we'll make a
12 motion closing the hearing, reserving decision
13 until later.
• 14 MEMBER OLIVA: Second.
15 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
16 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
17 HEARING #6173 - Joseph and
18 Cathleen Shipman
19 CHAIRMAN GOEHRINGER: I need a resolution
20 to adjourn Joseph and Cathleen Shipman without
21 a date.
22 MEMBER OLIVA: So moved.
23 (See Minutes for Resolution.)
25 (OFF THE RECORD)
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1 I, Denise Gasowski, certify that the foregoing
2 transcript of tape recorded Public Hearings was
3 prepared using four-track electronic transcription
9 equipment and is a true and accurate record of the
5 Hearings.
6
7 Signature aaet
8 Denise Ga owski
9
10 Agency Name: Pugliese's Court Reporting
11 and Transcription Service
12 Address of Agency: 4 Saddlebrook Lane
13 Manorville, New York 11949
14 Date: August 4, 2008
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