HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-04/22/1991PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS
Bennett Odowski, Jr., Chairman
George Ritchie Latham, Jr.
Richard G. Ward
Mark S. McDonald
Kenneth L Edwards
Telephone 1516] 765-1938
PLANNING BOARD OFFICE
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
SCOTT L. HARRIS
Supervisor
Town Hall. 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 1179
Southold. New York 11971
Fax (516) 765-1823
SOUTHOLD TOWN PLANNING BOARD
MINUTES
APRIL 22, 1991
Present were:
Bennett Orlowski Jr., Chairman
G. Richie Latham, Member
Richard Ward, Member
Mark McDonald, Member
Melissa Spiro, Planner
Holly Perrone, Secretary
Jane Rousseau, Secretary
Absent:
Kenneth Edwards, Member - Due to weather
Valerie Scopaz, Town Planner
Mr. Orlowski: Good evening, I would like to call this meeting
to order. First order of business is Salvatore and Jeanne
Catapano - This minor subdivision is for three lots on 13.73
acres located on the easterly side of South Harbor Road at
Southold. SCTM ~ 1000-69-6-9.2. Everything is in order for a
final hearing. I'll ask if there are any objections to this
subdivision? Hearing none, are there any endorsements of this
subdivision? Hearing none, is there anyone out there who is
neither pro nor con but may have information pertaining to this
subdivision that would be of interest to the Board? Any
questions from the Board?
Board: No questions.
Mr. Orlowski: Hearing no further questions, I'll declare this
hearing closed. Does the Board have any pleasure?
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution?
~ ~ PLANNING BOARD 2 APRIL 22, 1991
WHEREAS, Salvatore and Jeanne Catapano are the owners of
the property known and designed as SCTM 9 1000-69-6-9.2, located
at the south side of Main Road and the east side of South Harbor
Road in Southold; and
WHEREAS, this minor subdivision, to be known as Minor
Subdivision for Salvatore Catapano, is for three lots on 13.730
acres; and
WHEREAS, a variance for approval of access, subject to five
conditions, was granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals on March
8, 1991; and
WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, pursuant to the
State Environmental Quality Review Act, (Article 8), Part 617,
declared itself Lead Agency and issued a Negative Declaration on
July 16, 1990; and
WHEREAS, a final p~lic hearing was closed on said
subdivision application at the Town Hall, Southold, New York on
April 22, 1991; and
WHEREAS, all the requirements of the Subdivision
Regulations of the Town of Southold have been met; and
be it therefore,
RESOLVED, that the Southold Town Planning Board approve and
authorize the Chairman to endorse the final survey dated June
22, 1990 subject to compliance with the following condition
which must be met within six (6) months from the date of this
resolution:
The site is to be brought into conformance with
the December 11, 1990 Landscape Plan. A letter is
to be submitted to the Planning Board at such time
that the improvements have been completed.
In addition, the following condition is to be affixed to
the map at the time of endorsement:
Certificates of Occupancy will not be issued for
either proposed dwelling structure until such time
that all conditions of the March 8, 1991, Zoning
Board of Appeals approval of access have been met.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr~ Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
~ ~ PLAhrNING BOARD 3 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Orlowski: 7:35 p.m. Highpoint at East Marion, Section
Three - This major subdivision is for three lots on 2.9189
acres located in East Marion. SCTM ~ 1000-3-11.25. Everything
is in order for a final hearing. I'll ask if there are any
objections to this subdivision? Hearing none, are there any
endorsements of this subdivision? Hearing none, is there anyone
out there neither pro nor con but may have information
pertaining to this subdivision that would be of interest to the
Board? Hearing none, any questions from the Board?
Board: No questions.
Mr. Orlowski: No further questions, I'll declare this hearing
closed.
Mr. Orlowski: 7:40 p.m. Kay Dee Estates - This minor
subdivision is for three lots on 5.959 acres located at Leslie
Road in Cutchoque. SCTM ~ 1000-97-4-17. At this time,
everthing is in order for a final hearing. I'll ask if there
are any objections to this subdivision? Hearing none, are there
any endorsements of this subdivision?
Mr. Robert S. Kozakiewicz for Peter Danowski - For the
applicant. I would ask the Board to close ~he hearing, I would
obviously like to have this thing moved forward and to finally
get it resolved. However, in so doing, I would like to also,
without prejudice, indicate our strong opposition to the
inclusion at this very late time of the firewell requirement.
The Board' is very familiar with this application in as much as
the initial application was submitted back in NoVember of 1985,
and has had a great deal of time to address this subdivision.
We are only asking for three lots as a minor and there is a
great deal of time and effort spent on this thing and we are
quite concerned and quite adamant about the eleventh hour
addition of the firewell in this case. I would point out to the
Board that there is a fire hydrant located very close by and I
don't know if the Board is even aware of this fact. What I
would like to hand up to the Board is a copy of the fire or
homeowners insurance policy that was issued to Ms, Bailey. It
shows quite clearly that the property, which is her property,
which the Board has as part of the map, shows that it is only
located approximately 400 feet from a fire hydrant which in this
case would be located on the west side of Skunk Lane and south
of Eugene's Road. Wefeel that the requirement of a firewell at
this point and time is erroneous, unreasonable and an arbitrary
decision bY the Planning Board. I would ~ust like to approach
this point and just give you a copy of the homeowners insurance
policy. I understand that this may not be a decision that the
Board can address at this point and time and would like to keep
that avenue open. I do understand that also under the Town Code
PLANNING BOARD 4 APRIL 22, 1991
there is a certain provision whereby a variance can be granted
from strict application of the various roadway specifications
and otherwise and again, for the reasons I set forth earlier,
the fact that this application is a minor as previously pointed
out sometime last year, Ms. Bailey who proposes the subdivision
as Kay Dee Estates hopes someday that what she can do with the
property is give these lots to family members. The requirements
imposed upon her in this case have just made it almost
unre~sonable for her to be ~ble to go forward with the
application, not to mention the late requirement in this
instance of a firewell. I would ask the Board, as I indicated,
to close the hearing but certainly to grant us relief either by
variance or otherwise, wherein we are not required to do
firewells.
Mr. Orlowski: Have you had discussions with the fire
commissioners?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: Well, no. I was unaware that we should.
Mr. McDonald: Can you indicate where the firewell that you are
talking about is?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: May I approach? It is a fire hydrant.
Mr. McDonald: It is not a hydrant, it is probably a firewell
right. There is no public water there so I am assuming it is
probably a well.
Mr. Kozakiewicz: I haven't been to the site. The applicant
advises me that there is a body of water, a small pond there
they use to feed the fire hydrant.
Mr. McDonald: Do you mean the pond down next to A1 Krupski's?
Ms. Bailey: I suppose.
Mr. McDonald: That is on private property right, that pond?
Ms. Bailey: The pond must be.
Mr. McDonald: Is that what you are referring to or is it a fire
well?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: Is it a firewell or a fire hydrant? Is
there a fire hydrant at the site?
Ms~ Bailey: It is a fire hydrant.
Mr. McDonald: O.K., thank you. What is the road spec problem?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: The road spec we have addressed and I
believe it has been answered. Last year there was a concern for
the need for curbing.
~ ~PLANNING BOARD 5 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. McDonald: There was a problem with the current road spec.
Mr. Kozakiewicz: I know and it has been changed and we are
happy that you were able to do this for us in this case because
it was a major problem as it existed before. The width and the
curbing requirements.
Mr. McDonald: The only impediment in your clients mind at this
time is the firewell?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: That is correct.
Mr. Orlowski: We can hold this hearing open. The disussion
will have to be with the fire districts since they make all the
recommendations for fire protections in all the subdivisions.
Mr. Kozakiewicz: You can't alter that or change that based on
the evidence presented?
Mr. Orlowski: That is fire protection and we don't make those
decisions. Would you like us to keep this hearing open?
Mr. Kozakiewicz: Please.
Mr. Orlowski: O.K., any other endorsements? Hearing none, I
will entertain a motion to keep this hearing open.
Mr. Ward: So moved.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Ward, Mr. Latham, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Code Amendment:
Mr. Orlowski: 7:45 p.m. Amendment to Chapter A106
(Subdivision of Land] in reference to application fees.
Mark, would you like to read this amendment?
Mr'. McDonald:
Be it RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board amend
Chapter Al06 (Subdivision of Land) of the Code of the Town of
Southold as follows:
1. Section A106-21(~) (Sketch Plan) is hereby amended
by adding thereto two new subsections 1 and 2 to read
PLANNING BOARD 6 APRIL 22, 1991
as follows:
(!)
Ail applications for sketch plan approval
for a minor subdivision shall be accompanied
by a fee of five hundred dollars ($500.00) per
lot, together with an inspection fee of one
thousand dollars ($1,000.00)
(2)
Ail applications for sketch plan approval for
a major subdivision filed with the Town Clerk
shall be accompanied by a fee of one thousand
dollars ($1,000.00) plus one hundred dollars
($100.00) per acre, or part thereof, in the
proposed subdivision. An inspection fee equal
to six (6%) of the amount of the approved
performance bond must be paid after approval
of the bond amount by the Town Board and before
final approval of the plat.
2. Section A106-22(A) (Application and fee) is hereby
amended to read: Application.
3. Section A106-22(A) (2) of the Code of the Town of
Southold is hereby deleted in its entirety.
4. Section A106-23~A) (Application and fee) is hereby
amended to read: Application.
5. Section A106-23(A) (2) of the Code of the Town of
Southold is hereby deleted in its entirety.
Mr. Ward: Second. Just a clarity Mr. Chairman, this is a
chanqe in the code to clarify and is not an increase in the
fee. There is no change in fee.
Mr. Orlowski: Any questions from the Board?
Board: No questions.
Mr. Orlowski: I have a motion made and seconded. Ail those
in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Ward, Mr. Latham, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Hearings Held Over From Previous Meetings:
Mr. Orlowski: The North Forty - This major subdivision is
for thirteen lots on 30,3565 acres located on the south side of
Oregon Road; 621 feet west of Depot Lane in Cutchogue.
SCTM $ 1000-95-4-14.1
PLANNING BOARD 7 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion we keep this
hearing open at the request of their attorney.
Mr. Ward: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Mr. Orlowski: Eleanor Sievernich - This minor subdivision
is for two lots on 3.7648 acres located on the east side of Cox
Neck Lane in Mattituck. SCTM $ 1000-113-8-5.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that this be held
open due to the legal proceedings attached to this particular
case.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Ward, Mr. OrloWski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
MAJOR AND MINOR SUBDIVISIONS, LOT LINE CHAN~ES AND SET OFF
APPLICATIONS:
Final Determinations:
Mr. Orlowski: Charles Simmons - This proposal is to set-off
a 4.41 acre parcel from an existing 40.74 acre parcel located on
the north side of Sound Avenue; 1700 feet west of Bergen
Avenue in Mattituck. SCTM $ 1000-112-1-P/O 8.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
Be it RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning BOard
authorize the Chairman to endorse the final surveys dated
November 2, 1990. All conditions of the December 3, 1990
conditional final approval have been fulfilled.
Mr. Latham: Second.
~ ~PLANNING BOARD 8 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered. (Chairman endorsed maps).
Final Extension:
Mr. Orlowski: Franklinville Homes - This major
subdivision is for fifteen lots on 35.876 acres located at the
north side of Franklinville Road; 418.54 feet eas~ Aldrich
Lane in Laurel.
SCTM $ 1000-125-2-2.2.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
Be it RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant
a one-hundred eighty (180) day extension of conditional final
approval. Conditional final approval was granted on October 22,
1990. The extension will expire on October 22, 1991 unless all
conditions of approval have been fulfilled.
This will be the last extension that the Planning Board
will be granting.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Ward, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Mr. Orlowski: Donald Osani - This minor s~bdivision is for
two lots on 68,604 square feet located at the northwest corner
of North Bayview Road and Reydon Drive in Southold.
SCTM $ 1000-79-5-10 & 11.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
Be it RESOLVED that-the Southold Town Planning Board set
Monday, May 13, 1991 at 7:30 p.m. for a final public hearing on
the maps dated May 30, 1990.
Mr. Latham: Second.
~ ~PLANNING BOARD 9 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Ward, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Mr. Orlowski: William and Carolyn Haman- This proposed
lot line change is to'subtract 10,890 square feet from 10.391
acre parcel and add it to a 12,523 square foot in Southold.
SCTM ~ 1000-55-1-6.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board set Monday,
May 13, 1991 at 7:35 p.m. for a final public hearing on the maps
dated February 21, 1990.
Mr. Ward: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Sketch Determinations:
Mr. Orlowski: Norris Estates - This major subdivision is
for twenty-five lots on 28.147 acres located on the east side of
Camp Mineola Road; 200 feet south of New Suffolk Avenue in
Mattituck. SCTM 9 1000-122-5-4.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant
sketch approval on the map last dated March 15, 1991, with the
following condition:
A strip of land, 12.5 feet in width, is to be shown
parallel to Reeve Avenue (Camp Mineola Road) for
future highway purposes.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
PLANNING BOARD 10 APRIL 22, 1991
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Ward, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Sketch Extensions:
Mr. Orlowski: Thomas A. Sargent - This minor subdivision
is for three lots on 26,983 square feet located on the east and
south side of a right-of-way to Fox Avenue in Fishers Island.
Mr. McDonald: I have a procedural question. I thought that we
were going to hold everything on Fishers Island in abeyance
until we solved the FIDCO. We were going to be advised by an
attorney, has that been solved?
Mr. Orlowski: I didn't see anything in writing. Was that
what they decided at the meeting?
Mr. McDonald: That's the impression I got from Harvey.
Mr. Orlowski: This is approved already, this is only an
extension.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion.
RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant a six
month extension of sketch approval from May 13, 1991 to November
13, 1991.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Ward.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
MAJOR AND MINOR SUBDIVISIONS, LOT LINE CHANGES, SET OFF
APPLICATIONS - STATE ESVgIRO~AL QUALITY REVIEW ACT.
Lead Agency Process:
Mr. Orlowski: Norris Estates - SCTM 91000-122-5-4.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make the following
motion.
BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board start
the coordination process on this unlisted action.
~ ~PLANNING BOARD 11 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Draft Environmental Impact Status:
Mr. Orlowski: Marcari at Laurel - SCTM $
1000-121-4-9. Board to review the revised DEIS received on
March 22, 1991, for completeness.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
RESOLVED that the Planning Board has determined that the
Draft Environmental Impact Statement for Macari be determined
incomplete for the following reasons:
1. The Suffolk County Department of Health Services'
standards for horizontal separation between the well and all
leaching pools are incorrectly stated. Further, the impact
evaluation of this required setback on site layoutmust be
included within the document. Please refer to the April 18,
1991 report of Charles J. Voorhis for further explanation.
2. The document incorrectly refers to the subject site as
lying partially within the Town's Core Watershed Protection
district. There is no such Town designated district. However,
the entire site does lie within the Central Suffolk Special
Groundwater Protection Area, the boundaries of which have been
recognized by the State of New York's Department of
Environmental Conservation. (A copy of the staff review of the
DEIS goes into greater detail and is included for your use.)
3. Figure 19, which is referenced on page III-95, is
missing from the document.
For purposes of determining completeness, this Board will
accept just the revised pages for review. If these revisions
are acceptable and the document is deemed complete, then fifteen
complete (15) copies of the impact statement should be submitted
for public review and comment.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
PLANNING BOARD 12 APRIL 22, 1991
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski.
Abstained: Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
SETTING OF NEXT PLANNING BOARD MEETING:
Mr. Orlowski: Board to set Monday, May 13, 1991 at 7:30 p.m.
at the Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold as the time and
place for the next regular Planning Board meeting.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
APPROVAL OF PLANNING BOARD MINUTES:
Board to approve the March 1i, 1991 and the April l, 1991
minutes.
Mr. Ward: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
OTHER
Mr. Orlowski: Paul Matthews SCTM $ 1000-100-2-1. Board
to correct the February 25, 1991, resolution of conditional
preliminary approval.
Mr. McDonald: Mr. Chairman, the first thing I would like to say
is that this does nothing but change some dates to correct the
previously incorrect resolution. There is no change in the
substance. I would like to make a motion.
PLANNING BOARD 13 APRIL 22, 1991
Be it RESOL'FED that the Planning Board make the following
correction to their Februar~ 25, 1991, resolution of conditional
preliminary approval:
The February 25, 1991 resolution is to read: "Be it
RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant conditional
preliminary approval on the maps dated Februa~ 1, i991, subject
to the following conditions. " The conditions are to remain
as per the February 25th resolution.
The February 25th Conditional Preliminary Approval
referenced an incorrect map date of December 31, 1990. The
Conditional Preliminary Approval was granted on the maps dated
February 1, 1991, not the maps dated Decen~ber 31, 1990.
Mr. Ward: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any.questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr.. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Mr. Orlowski: Daniel Jacob¥ - SCTM 9 1000-125-1-5.
Board to close files. We are about to close the files on this
since he is not interested in proceeding.
Mr. Latham: Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the following
resolution.
Be it RESOLVED that the Planning Board close both files for
the above mentioned parcel, without prejudice.
Mr. Ward: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the
motion? All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Latham, Mr. Ward, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski:
Opposed? So ordered.
I have nothing left on my written agenda.
Mr. Orlowski: Is
there anyone out there that would like to address the Board?
see Mr. Dinizio is here tonight and he has asked to speak to
the Board.
,PLANNING BOARD 14 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Dinizib: Today, I brought in a letter requesting a waiver
of site plan approval for the premise on the Main Road
(Route 25) in Greenport. If the Board has looked over the
papers, as you can see on the survey, nothing muc~ can be done
with the land except what has been done already. The changes to
the land have been minimal as indicated. I would like to know
if the Board would act on it?
Mr. Orlowski: Do we have any comments or questions?
Mr. McDonald: Your letter says the back portion of your
property cannot be used at the present time. Does that indicate
that it can or will be used at sometime in the future.
Mr. Dinizio: I requested a waiver from the Board of Trustees
to build the land and I was denied.
Mr. McDonald: Has it been declared wetlands or something?
Mr. Dinizio: No, it hasn't been declared nothing. I would
have to go through the whole process to build the land if I
wanted to. They denied me a waiver.
Mr. McDonald: O.K., so there is no determination at all.
Mr. Dinizio: Right. If I want to proceed it would be with a
normal application.
Mr. McDonald: Did they indicate to you that there were any maps
or anything thing that would designate that as wetlands? I mean
there must be a reason you went there to ask for a waiver to
fill it in.
Mr. Dinizio: Well, there is water on the property so I would
assume that I would end up getting arrested by just taking a
dump truck and dumping fill on the land.
Mr. McDonald: It is your intention, if it were possible , to
increase your coverage on the site.
Mr. Dinizio: If I could, sure. I mean I am not in the
position to be spending thousands of dollars on lawyers and time
filling out applications where I am a self-employed person and I
really don't have the time to do that stuff. I requested a
waiver to fill it and I was denied so I will probably leave it
at that unless I hit the lottery or something.
Mr. McDonald: How do you handle parking in there?
Mr. Dinizio: Well, it is a fifty foot wide lot and the whole
front of the lot is blacktopped.
Mr. McDonald: You pull in, I assume you pull in, do you have to
back out into the road to get out?
PLANNING BOARD 15 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Dinizio: It depends how you pull in. If you pull in on
the west side of the property or the east side, there is room
for a U-turn.
Mr. McDonald: The sign sort of divides the property.
Mr. Dinizio: There is room between the sign and the property
line to get a car through.
Mr. McDonald: Between the sign and the building?
Mr. Dinizio: Between the sign and the property line.
Mr. McDonald: This is showing almost nothing between the sign
and the property line.
Mr. Dinizio: Well, probably if you had a scale ruler, there
would probably be about twelve to fifteen feet between the sign
and the property line.
Mr. McDonald: Showing about thirty-eight to the sign from the
building? Oh, I'm sorry, that is what I meant, you pull in on
the east side and go between the building and the sign and then
you don't go back out. That is what you were talking about
right?
Mr. Dinizio: Yeah, you can do that. The point I am trying to
get at is that the property can't be changed as far as I can
see. If you grant me permission to fill in 200 feet of land
tonight, I'll fill in 200 feet of land and I'll move to build in
back.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, I recommend that we have Mr. Dinizio
show the parking on this particular map and show where it is and
show that it's in conformance with the code in terms of the
parking requirements that we accept that as a site plan.
Mr. McDonald: We would accept from his hand rather than an
engineers sketch showing the layout.
Mr. Dinizio: Could I just interrupt you for a minute? If you
took from the front of the building to Route 25 from lot line to
lot line, it is all blacktop. It is all parking. Do you want
me to draw a line across the front of the building?
Mr. Ward: What I am asking, is two things. One is that you
show the parking, show the lines where the parking should be,
where it is and secondly, put the calculations on this map as to
why you have that many spaces that it shows that it meets the
code.
Mr. Dinizio: Alright, the code is one parking place per 200
square foot?
PLANNING BOARD 16 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. McDonald: You have been talking to Mr. Kassner on this?
Mr. Dinizio: Yeah, a little bit.
Mr. McDonald: Then I refer to the staff as to what the code
says. I don't have my book in front of me so I am certainly not
qualified off the top of my head to tell you among the two
hundred things in that code.
Mr. Dinizio: O.K., well, I guess my next question would be if
the Board doesn't find that the parking is sufficient, what am I
to do about it. Are there any recommendations?
Mr. Orlowski: Basically, we are just asking right now to show
us what is existing so we can put something in the file and talk
with Mr. Kassner and I guess we will act on it by the next
meeting.
Mr. Ward: How much square footage is in the building?
Mr~ Dinizio: Six to seven hundred square feet. The
dimensions of the building are on the survey.
Mr. McDonald:
storage?
Mr. Dinizio:
Is all of that floor space or is some of that
Some storage room.
Mr. Orlowski: O.K..
Mr. Dinizio: If you want lines, we'll give you lines. Are
there any other things that I should know about?
Mr. McDonald: The only other things would be things that have
already been mentioned.
Mr. Dinizio: You are not going to leave me no room for growth.
Mr. McDonald: What I am saying is, if it gets more intense, we
are going to reserve our right to review it, just like the code
says now, that we have that right. You are subject to the same
conditions that everybody else in the town is.
Mr. Dinizio: That is where I tend to disagree with you. I'm
sorry, because there are places in this town thatare already
approved, site plans such as Feather Hill, Mattituck ShopPing
Plaza, I mentioned, ~here are many of them in Southold Town that
the use or the intensity of the use could change at a moments
notice and I am wondering if everybody who changes a use of a
building has to stand up here in front of this Board as I am.
It seems to me it would be open every night if that were the
case.
Mr. McDonald: That is what the code says.
PLANNING BOARD 17 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Dinizio: I know, but what I would like to know is does
everybody have to come up here and do this?
Mr. McDonald: If you feel there are people who should be
complied with and who are not, if you tell us we will take
action. We will.
Mr. Dinizio: How does my name get picket out of the hat?
Mr. McDonald: I'm afraid I don't have thatJ on top of my head.
Mr. Dinizio: Somebody must know.
Mr. Orlowski: I think you are one of many names that have
been picked out of a hat and as we find ~he names we make
everything conform. Now, if you have a bunch of other names, we
would be glad to hear about them because that is basically how
we find out.
Mr. Dinizio: I would never put anybody through this~ I
wouldn't put my worst enemy through this believe me. I still
can't understand the difference in the use. Where I have a
Certificate of Occupancy for retail sale~. That is what I find
very hard to understand. I haven't had anyone who could explain
it to me sufficiently, but it all hinges on one word in the-Code
Book, Intensity. I mean that leaves a lot of room for a lot
of different people and it is costing the tax payers of Southold
Town a lot of money because of that one word. I feel, I'm
giving you my opinion. Who determines that a Plumbing and
Heating Shop is less intense then a Clothing Shop or a Deli or
anything else?
Mr. Orlowski: We do.
Mr. Dinizio: How do you determine that?
Mr. McDonald: It doesn't say that simply though.
Mr. Dinizio: How do you determine that?
Mr. McDonald: It says, any change of use or any change in
intensity of use. So it doesn't hinge on simply that in one
phase. It says, any change of use.
Mr. Dinizio: Is selling one retail thing as compared~to
another a change of use?
Mr. Orlowski: YeS.
Mr. Dinizio: In other words, if I have a Plumbing and Heating
Shop there and I put in a different style faucet that is a
different use. The way you are explaining it to me, and we
could go round and round about this all night. I mean, I have
· PLANNING BOARD 18 APRIL 22, 1991
the Certificate of Occupancy for retail sales and retail is
retail.
Mr. Ward: Mr. Dinizio, I think we offered a amicable solution
to the problem.
Mr. Dinizio: You have and I am going to give you your lines.
I will give you your lines and I guess that is about it.
Mr. Ward: Work with Bob and do the calculation on the map.
Mr. Dinizio: Could you explain what you mean by calculation.
Mr. Ward: You need one car for every square foot of retail
space and you may need one car for one hundred square foot of
storage you have got to show that on the plan. You have to show
that calculation on the plan when you give it back to us with
the spaces.
Mr. Dinizio: O.K. thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Any other questions for the Board tonight?
MY. Dan Mooney: Tonight I have my wife and nephew Dan Bayhe
~ith me and they operate the North Fork Beer and Soda in
Mattituck. I had some correspondence with Bob Kassnerand he
suggested I come before the Board and have an informal
dgscussion this evening. I submitted a survey and I think you
may'have seen it with respect to the Beer and Soda business in
Mattituck and the lot next door. I brought in a application for
& building permit and the Building Department suggested I run it
past you; the Planning Office. What we would like to do is to
marriage two lots which were previously separate lots. One of
which was owned by myself and one of which was owned by my wife,
into one lot and then we would like to add on to the rear of the
beer and soda business in order to expand the cooler which is a
walk in cooler. In addition, we would like to add propane tanks
so that we could sell propane as a product and when I spoke with
Bob he said that the Board had several questions. I tried to
answer those questions in a letter that I sent on April 8th
with respect to lot coverage and use and with respect to the
fact that propane is, we are not talking about selling like
VanDuzer, that is a' good example I think. Agway, in Southold,
theysell propane from tanks behind their building. It is one
of the products they sell. Between Southold and Jamesport, I
don't believe there is anyplace else that sells or dispenses
propane for'the twenty pound barbecue tanks and that was what we
were hoping we could do and I believe the pl°t plan on the
survey that we Presented meets all of the requirements necessary
under the state code to sell propane and we wanted to get the
Board's feeling as to this application with respect to selling
this additional product and adding on to the store. Now, I
PLANNING BOARD 19 APRIL 22, 1991
realize that at one time, we've owned the place about a year,
just about a year, and Tom Yasso who owned it before us had
gone before the Zoning Board of Appeals and he wanted to add on
to the cooler and the Zoning Board of Appeals said no. That was
before, that was when only one lot was involved.
That is the lot with the store and the warehouse. Two lots were
not involved but now we are suggesting that we merge the two
lots into one so that we will have sufficient area. We will not
exceed the thirty percent lot coverage. We will have the
required setbacks and that is basically what we are interested
in doing. I thought we might get some informal discussion going
with the Board as to their feelings with respect to the
application. I'll tell you at the outset it is our intention
and it has been since we got to that store to try and conform to
the co~unity, and add something to the community. We are hoping
that by doing this we can continue to do the same type of
operation.
Mr. Orlowski: I don't know. I wouldn't consider propane an
accessory use to a beverage store.
Mr. Mooney: Well, there are many beverage stores on Long
Island, in my letter I mentioned three or four.
Mr. Orlowski: Not in this town.
Mr. Mooney: There are only two beverage stores in this Town.
One is on Main Road and ours is in Mattituck. In that sense, I
don't know if it would be accessory to other businesses, it is a
product to be sold and certainly wouldn't be the main product
that we would sell. We sell potato chips and pretzels and
things like that. Also, which are kind of an accessory to beer
and soda which is a product as well.
Mr. Orlowski: What would you do with the residence, tear it
down?
Mr. Mooney: We're not going to use the residence as a
residence I can tell you that. We haven't made any plans at all
with respect to it and anything we did do would be in
conformance with what the Board asked us to do there is no
question about it. I understand the objection to having several
uses on the same parcel and I agree with that, there is no
problem with that. We would covenant not to use that until you
tell us at some time that we can do something with it. It won't
be used as a residence, I can assure you. We might use it for
storage by the way if that is O.K. with the Town.
Mr. Ward: Storage for?
Mr. Mooney: Beer and soda.
Mr. McDonald: Do you think this addresses the conditions, not
the conditions but the comments the Zoning Board of Appeals made
PLANNING BOARD 20 APRIL 22, 199i
when they turned down the variance on the original application?
Was the application in Tom Yasso~s name?
Mr. Mooney: Yes, Mr. Yasso made the application.
Mr. McDonald: Do you think what you are doing addresses those
particular concerns.
Mr. Mooney: Yes, I think if the lots. are merged, we do
address those particular concerns.
Mr. McDonald: How about traffic conditions.
Mr. Moone¥: Well, I also will tell you that there is another
house to the East of the white house which is the yellow house
and we have parking in front of that house as well.
Mr. McDonald: Right now the beverage center is using those
parking areas right now?
Mr. Mooney: Right.
Mr. McDonald: Did Mr. Yasso own those parking areas?
Mr. Mooney: He did not own all of this at the time of the
application. He only owned the beverage store and the latest
application he owned, I think the yellow house to the east. He
did not own ~he white house in the middle and that was the
difficulty the Zoning Board of Appeals had at that time. He was
also going to exceed the lot coverage. You will find at present
that we do not have a parking problem. We have more than
adequate parking in front of the beverage store, we have parking
behind the beverage store for the employees, etc. so that we
don't have a problem with parking at present.
Mr. McDonald: There has been insufficient and hazardous parking
and'traffic conditions in the front. Insufficient ingress and
egress and traffic congestion and insufficient and unsafe
circulation from vehicles and pedestrians. That is a tough
check list of traffic problems. That was on Mr. Yasso's
application.
Mr. Mooney: That was the application to the Zoning Board of
Appeals and I don't believe we have to go to the Zoning Board of
Appeals at present for the addition for the addition to the
building.
Mr. McDonald: If you merged the two, your lot coverage would be
what?
Mr. Mooney: Well below thirty percent. I did the
calculations.
Mr. McDonald: With the building that exists.
PLANNING BOARD 21 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. M0oney: Yes, even with the present house and buildings
that exist it would be well below that.
Mr. Ward: How would you address the concerns that the Zoning
Board of Appeals raised from that last application which I don't
think has been changed since that time. What is planned to be
done.
Mr. Mooney: With respect to traffic?
Mr. Ward: Yes.
Mr. Mooney: Well, with respect to traffic we certainly have
more parking spaces now then we did at the time of the Zoning
Board of Appeals approval because the second lot was not owned
by Mr. Yasso who only had parking in front of the beverage
store. You did not have parking in front of the white house at
all, you did not have any of that area available to parking nor
did you have parking along side of the white house which we now
have at present. I think that meets very well the difficulty
that the Zoning Board of Appeals had at that time and that is
with respect to the addition to the building.
Mr. McDonald: We have had some communication, nothing official
just some discussion, and there is some question about whether
the proposal for propane meets the minimum guidelines. I got
the impression from what you said that your mind if the Building
Department feels that there is no difficulty of the location of
the propane tanks as you presently stated where you are planning
on putting them.
Mr. Mooney: I believe that is correct. I had a conversation
with the Building Department four weeks ago. Before 'that, I had
a conversation with someone in Riverhead who had several
locations likethis, not in Southold but in another town and
there is a state code fQr the storage of propane and the
question of propane tanks and they gave me the exact
requirements for the propane and I think Mr. VanTuyl
incorporated them in the survey when he did it. I think he also
checked and so I think they are the correct, there is the
setbacks, as stated on the plan are correct. However, you do
have to have barriers around the Propane tank which I don't
think' are shown on the survey, would be in order to comply with
the requirement. I alsothink that you should realize that the
sale of propane in the beverage store is not the major
commodity, it is beer and soda which is the major commodity.
This would be a service to our customers, a lot of people come
and get their barbecue tanks filled and get their beer and soda
at the same time. This is a use that is very co~:on in a lot of
beverage stores on Long ISland if you haVe the space to do so
and we have the space.
Mr. McDonald: You are dealing with a food commodity really.
Rotato chipsand pretzels, etc.. This is kind of far field
. PLANNING BOARD 22 APRIL 22, 1991
from food. I see the connection you are talking about for
someone who is having a barbecue would have just one stop but I
don't get the actual connection necessarily between the uses.
What if you need lawn furniture for your barbecue, would you
have lawn furniture? I am trying to get the connection between
the propane in a beverage center that makes it an accessory use
rather than a second use.
Mr. Mooney: O.K., we are not asking to sell anything other
than the propane.
Mr. MCDonald: I am trying to draw parallels with other items,
the idea of the propane is a service and that it is connected in
your mind, yes, if you are going to get beverages and pretzels
that you might be cooking outside and need propane but by the
same sense you might need lawn furniture. Why is propane
different from the lawn furniture or anything else you might
need from this outside use?
Mr. Mooney: I can't answer your questions specifically and
say it is anyway different but how about we say for example
Agway?
Mr. McDonald: Agway is preexistent, it has been there forever.
Fir. Mooney: But, there is nothing in the code that makes this
Mr. McDonald: Yes, but it is preexistent and to use Agway at an
example doesn't, it is like Picking a non-conforming use
somewhere and you are using that for an example, it is a
non-conforming use.
Mr. Mooney: Did Agway sell propane prior to the code?
Mr. McDonald: As far as I know, it has been there as long as
I've lived here, but that doesn't mean that it has been.
Mr. Mooney: You see there is nothing in the code that says
that we are not conforming to anything because there is nothing
in the code about propane so you can't have a non-conforming use
in my understanding to something which is not even in the code.
Mr. McDonald: We are talking about whether it would be
conforming or non-conforming as a secondary or accessory use.
The mere fact that it is there means the question is moVed.
We're not going to discuss this as a question of whether it is
accessory or secondary if it's preexisting. In your case we are
examining whether it's a secondary or an accessory use. What
makes this, in your mind, an accessory use rather' than a
secondary use?
Mr. Mooney: Because there are many, many, beer and soda
places that sell this as a service to their customers and
PLANNING BOARD 23 APRIL 22, 1991
therefore I don't think that this is a separate use. We're not
just selling propane, we're not just going to have a propane
store like VanDuzer or that type of operation, this is a
thousand gallon tank that does propane tanks. We could not make
a living selling propane out of a thousand gallon tank but it is
a product that we sell.
Mr. McDonald: I understand what you are saying, but as a
service to your customers, you could also sell furniture or
bicycles. I mean, you could sell any number of items. Where is
the point in your mind that draws us into the accessories? Is
it the matter of how much money you are going to draw from it or
whether it is a principle part of your income.
Mr. Mooney: I think that is one of the reasons that if it is
a principle part of your income or not. The other thing is if
it goes hand and hand with someone buying beverages for a
barbecue, having a picnic or having a party. In that sense it
is kind of an accessory to the main business. I don't~ think
there is anything in the code that says you can't do it.
Mr. McDonald: We're here to hear what you have to say.
Mr. Mooney: I know, so I didn't see any reason why you
couldn't do it in the code. Obviously, I don't think it is a
separate use. If I was going to open another business selling
sneakers next door, I would understand, you would say, sneakers
and beer and soda don't go or beer and soda and lawn furniture
don't go together.
Mr. Orlowski: What is the economic impact of this if you
don't sell propane gas?
Mr. Mooney: The economic impact is that it does help to
attract customers.
Mr. Orlowski: You_know, like Agway that is preexisting, but
they sell barbecue grills so naturally I guess the gas would be
an accessory over there.
Mr. McDonald: There is a little more of a connection if you are
selling grills to sell propane.
Mr. Orlowski: I don't see the connection in a beverage and
beer store.
Mr. Mooney: I don't think that grills are their main part of
business at Agway.
Mr. McDonald: I'm inclined to agree with that, I don't know
what the main part of their business is.
Mr. Mooney: They sell a lot of products and very well. Is
the Board kind of saying this is a separate use?
PLANNING BOARD 24 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Orlowski: That is my opinion, what is the Board's opinion?
Mr. Richard Israel: I think the reason they do sell propane and
you see it in a lot of these things is because of the
convenience. Normally on week-ends the propane stores are not
open where you can get them and if you do run out of propane
while you are having a barbecue, his hours of operation are
normally Saturday and Sunday until usually, I'm going to say the
hour of 6:00 p.m., where people then have a chance to go
someplace and buy propane and that is why it has been popular in
the beverage store.
Mr~ Orlowski: I don't know, I can't envision pumping bottled
gas in a place that sells alcohol and beverages. I get a little
nervous when they do that. I don~t see it as an accessory use
personally.
Mr. Mooney: The difficulty I have with that decision is that
I don't see anything in the code that says it is a different use.
Mr. McDonald: Well, the code doesn't list every accessory use.
It doesn't say that everything is an accessory and everything is
a principle. It simply doesn't do that. If you were looking
for that in the code, you would be looking a long time for every
accessory use. Some things are clear and somethings are not.
It doesn't say, these things are the principle uses and all
other things are accessories. It is not that clear cut. If you
are looking for the list to tell you, we would be getting old.
Mr. Mooney: There is no list and that is the difficulty. If
we are going to comply with the code in doing this?
Mr. McDonald: 'Let me ask you what would draw you to this
particular thing? It is obviously some opportunity that you
feel that this is the use that you can make the most, you're
talking about merging an entireparcel of property that could
have its own entire use on it assuming that you could handle the
parking requirements and you are willing to forego all that in
order to get this use. Do you feel that it's that important?
Mrs Mooney: t think we are merging it for two reasons, we
want to add on~ we have to add on for two reasons, we have to
add on t° the ~ooler. The cooler at the back of the store which
you see sketched in on the survey. This cooler is too small.
During the summer time we have to fill the cooler twice a day
and the manpower that takes to fill the cooler twice a day
rotates stocks with the cool one's the top and warm ones on the
bottom, becomes non-productive and that is the major reason for
merging two lOts so that we can because the Zoning Board of
Appeals turnedldown Mr. Yasso some years ago. If I come back
here with the same thing, they are going to say you were here
already so merging the two lots in order to add on to the cooler
in the back of the building so we can more efficiently operate,
especially during the s~.~er months, because basically beer and
PLANNING BOARD 25 APRIL 22, 1991
soda is a five month business, May through October as is propane
a May to October type product which is a s~mL~er type product.
People don't barbecue in the winter time and that is the reason
we are redoing the cooler. We would also like to do as many
other beer and soda places do on Long Island, offer the services
of selling propane. Just in twenty pound tanks, we're not
talking large tanks. Just the barbecue.
Mr. McDonald: Refill, on site.
Mr. Mooney: Refill, on site for barbecue tanks only. That
would be the absolute limit to what we are asking. We are not
asking for anything else. That would basically be for our own
customers so we are not going to increase traffic. People are
not going to come to Mattituck just to buy propane for their
barbecue and that is why I thought it was a complimentary use to
what we now have in the store.
Mr. Latham: One of my concerns is the house t~ the east. What
do you call it the yellow house?
Mr. Mooney: The yellow, house.
Mr. Latham: You said it would be used mainly for storage?
Mr. Mooney: No, no, no, no, not the yellow house, the white
house. The white house which is on the site now. The little
white house.
Mr. Latham: What is the little yellow house?
Mr. Mooney: That's a rental. That's a separate lot.
Mr. Latham: What is the white house for now?
Mr. Mooney: Nothing, it's vacant.
Mr. McDonald: It's not residential at all? It's not even used
for that?
Mr. Mooney: It's vacant. There is no one living in it now.
It has been vacant for over a year.
Mr. Latham: Is it storage and would you just continue that or
what?
Mr. Mooney: We could covenant it and it could stay a storage,
it would not be used unless we had the approval of this Board or
the Zoning Board of Appeals if we had to go that route.
Mr. McDonald: Let me ask you, this is a complicated piece of
work and I would ask the Chairman to hold on this because I
would like to to talk to the Town Attorney. The main issue to
me is the traffic and merging the two lots together certainly
PLANNING BOARD 26 APRIL 22, 1991
does something about the parking problem but the question of the
difficulty in the road in that particular point in the town
remains an issue no matter what you have because it is such a
busy place and you are going to add a more intense use~.by adding
extra storage and adding an extra cooler and the propane.
Hopefully, this will improve your business, that is the plan
that you are trying to improve your business and increase the
volume a bit so the questions of traffic are still going to
remain. Is the idea of the house, I'm not trying to tell you
that this is what is going to happen, I'm just trying in my own
mind, if the house had t0 go for traffic circulation purposes,
would you be prepared to move the house or whatever it took?
Mr. Mooney: I would certainly be willing to discuss it with
you. -
Mr. McDonald: O.k., thank you.
Mr. Mooney: We not trying to create a problem, we would like
to alleviate the problems. Extending the cooler is not going to
increase our business, it is just going to make operating our
business a little bit easier so you can fill that cooler once a
day instead of twice a day.
Mr. McDonald: If you had your way, and rightly so, you want to
see your business flourish.
Mr. Mooney: Our business, thank god, is doing reasonably well
and we would like to make it operate more efficiently if we
could. A lot of our business is wholesale which is off the
premises and not retail which is on the premises.
Mr. Latham: It doesn't come through your place at all?
Mr. Mooney: They deliver and we take out by truck from the
warehouse and deliver to various places throughout this town and
the Town of Riverhead.
Mr. Latham: That is the wholesale.
Mr. Mooney: That is the wholesale.
Mr. Latham: They come into your place though.
Mr. Mooney: They come in back by the warehouse. Usually the
deliveriesare on week-days and never on the week-ends during
the summer because we don't have the ability during the
week-ends to take delivery.
Mr. McDonald: I would like to ask the Town Attorney.
Mr. Mooney: O.K., I understand and I wish that you would and
I would be more than happy to do anything I can to answer any
further questions that you may have. I appreciate very much
PLANNING BOARD 27 APRIL 22, 1991
your giving us your time this evening because I know you have a
lot of things to do. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: O.K., any other questions or comments for the
Board?
Richard Israel: I'm am here to discuss the golf course which we
had discussed a while back. Since the last tim~ we were here I
have been to the Town Board and have been discussing with them
and I guess they have thrown it back to you guys to see if
something can be done to create a golf course in the Township of
Southold. I think what the Town Board has been throwing around
and what you guys have done a little bit is variable lot sizes
and I was wondering if that could be appropriate for here where
we could create, again we are not increasing density from the
original, we would be creating a lot that would have covenants
and restrictions on it which would allow it just to be utilized
just as the golf course property and stay open and clear and
have the restrictions on it as far as the environmentalists
would want for fertilization and stuff of that nature. It may
make better sense in that way that it could be under separate
ownership. The clubhouse and the whole amenities 'of the club
could own and fee simply instead of possibility being a rental
deal from a homeowners association. Again, I think the golf
course is something the town can use and I think everybody is in
agreement with that and it is just, how do we make this work so
it is feasible?
Mr. Ward: Rich, you mentioned something very important as far
as we are concerned and that is a golf course for the Town, is
it?
Mr. Israel: When you say a golf course for the Town, it will
provide one major problem that you have, I'm going to say with
golf courses is expense. Through our investigations, it would
probably cost close tothree million dollars to create this golf
course and that is not including the club house.
Mr. Ward: I think that is very optimistic.
Mr. Israel: I don't think the revenues from a public course
would create that, be able to support it. And I don't think the
additional revenues from a clubhouse would be able to support
that. I think it has to be probably a membership club which
will be open to any and everybody, not just the residents of
this community and there would probably be a fee attached to
that membership.
Mr. Ward: Would it be open to the general public other than
membership?
Mr. Israel: I don't know the answer to that.
PLANNING BOARD 28 APRIL 22, 1991
5ir. Ward: Without that answer, I don't believe we would support
it. I realize that we are only the Planning Board but from
our point of view it is not necessarily public recreation but
the tourism and the whole thrust out here of having another golf
course to play on is very important. If it is going to be a
private, close the door membership, and it is not open to the
general public, then I don't see the public benefit in doing
this.
Mr. Israel: You are saying if a person in the public has Go buy
a membership, then it is not open.
Mr. Ward: Right.
Mr. Israel: Well, the only thing I can think of is it possibly
can be run like Island's End where it is a membership club and
they have first right of coming onto the greens, I guess and
doing their times etc. and after that, I believe it could be
open to the public. I would say it would probably be best that
way because it keeps revenues churning for the club. It doesn't
keep it stagnant and it doesn't keep it a closed door. I think
the one problem that you will have to address and will be your
concern is that now, we have created a true business. This golf
course is going to thrive and is going to entice people to come,
going to try to entice people to eat at its clubhouse and do
other things and whether that starts to then go against the
grain of what we originally planned.
Mr. McDonald: Why is that? Why would it entice them to do
things other than play golf? You are saying that you would need
x amount to make it happen, I understand that but the public
will add revenues to it but somehow or another that is going to
increase the need for other services.
Mr. Israel: If you are not a public club, I'm going to say
doors closed until people come up and show up with $10,000.00
then you are open to the public. That means, that I can't stop
a person who wants to come eat in the clubhouse restaurant over
looking the green just for lunch, O.K., versus only limiting to
people who have already played golf.
Mr. McDonald: With the assumption that the clubhouse has to be
an intrigal part of the golf course.
Mr. Israel: I don't think it does.
Mr. McDonald: Why?
Mr. Israel: I think you look at most clubs, I mean, Island End
right now has just expanded their clubhouse, they just improved
their restaurant. Maybe, I should say this. The other use
that I see on this property is the clubhouse itself. I mean,
there is no nice catering hall in Southold. I don't think there
is a place in Southold that if you had a party~for more than one
PLANNING BOARD 29 APRIL 22, 1991
hundred people, the only person you could go to is the
Tolendol Inn.
Mr. McDonald: Unless you belong to a private club. Let me ask
you, how many lots, I know we discussed this the first time but
what did you envision as the final number?
Mr. Israel: This yield here, we have 104 lots. Excuse me you
have 103 and from it~ I will give you the open spaces, there is
146 acres of open space, there is three acres of recreational
center site which is this tennis court and pool, O.K., and the
length of the road is about 10,000 square linear feet. The
whole site is two hundred and seventeen acres so we are actually
only using approximately seventy acres as homesites. We went
down to the minimum that we thought we were alloWed to use which
I believe is three quarter of an acre and trying to expand the
open space as much as possible.
Mr. McDonald: You have got one hundred and three or whatever it
is a hundred parcels, did you envision each of them
automatically when you buy a membership or were they going to be
completely divorced, these two things were going to be
completely divorced?
Mr. Orlowski: Can you imagine the dues in the homeowners
association.
Mr. McDonald: I was just wondering, if you saw these two as
totally divorced or you see them as intricately connected.
Mr. Israel: Well, I think a person who is buying a lot should
have a right to a membership.
Mr. McDonald: But, you might see them separately?
Mr. Israel: Of course.
Mr. McDonald: I mean, how many memberships and I'm sure you
must have looked into this hard. How many memberships to this
operation is it going to take for it financially be viable?
Mr. Israel: It depends how much you get as a charter member.
Mr. McDonald: Well, you do this for a living so you must have
looked into what you were going to ask and how man~ you need.
Mr. Israel: Our understanding is that a golf course maxes out
st about three hundred members. O.K., after that there is
really no available tee time, it becomes counter productive
O.K.. There is two creations of revenues here. Number one, the
increase in the value of the lot that is golf course frontage,
and the other one the increase in value if it was or had a right
to the club O.K., or the homeowners association did own this
land they would'benefit probably from the lease of the clubhouse
PLANNING BOARD 30 APRIL 22, 1991
so actually it would increase the value of the land because it
would come within the inuity. In other words, if there are one
hundred lots here and this golf course is paying $60,000.000,
each lot would get $600.00 a year. If we were to make it a
public course as you like to. happen, I would say that we would
still give these people a right of membership. It may be a
discounted membership where normally a member may pay and I
haven't gone over those figures O.K., some people have shown me
a club in Bridgehampton that they are getting a $100,000.00 a
membership and they supposedly sold a hundred of them. I don't
put this in the same category, we are not on the South Fork.
Mr. McDonald: Here is another problem that I have been hearing
about and I'm sure you have pondered on this. Some of these
courses because the lots haven't moved, the homeowners
association has become essentially (inaudible) because the
people developing it end up owning all of these lots, they can't
make the payments to maintain the golf course and suddenly the
whole thing collapses.
Mr. Israel: That is why it pushes towards a private club. If
you were to keep this a private club and people would know it
was a private club O.K., they would be more likely to pay more
so the concept here is if you could get 200 members or even
starting at 100 members and if those memberships would pay the
right percentage of the course of creating this golf course
there is no golf service. It is actually put up in cash up in
front and that is what makes it successful. Actually, this golf
course in my opinion to be created before you do this
subdivision.
Mr. McDonald: That presents some of the problems.
Mr. Israel: Those are problems of development. Think of any
developer, they have to put in roads and everything else before
they can go sell a lot. This is a very big project for Southold
O.K., no denying it O.K., and I don't think it would be created
if the need or the want isn't there O.K..
Mr. McDonald: Have you done marketing on it?
Mr. Israel: The only marketing we have done has been I would
say the North Fork Country Club is full, the Island End is
fighting to try to take it private and there was a big stink so
they wanted to keep it public or everybody Said youhave to keep
it public. To me, I am a believer of supply and demand. Even
if this was private, and I took 200 memberships of people who
play golf, it will open up the other golf course just like with
the affordable housing, we have created it and I don't know if
you are aware of it right now but there is a glut in Southold of
apartments, rents are coming down, all because of that action.
Mr. Ortowski: I don't think it was that action.
PLANNING BOARD 31 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: Well, it was part of that action.
Mr. Latham: I think the economy has some part in this.
Mr. Israel: But, you guys have got to realize that you guys put
seventy people into homes that came out of apartments. That is
a large number.
Mr. McDonald: You think the golf course is at least three
million.
Mr. Israel: That doesn't include the clubhouse and it depends,
I think this golf course and these are the other factors that
are going to change what this golf course is. This is going to
be a public golf course, you are not going to get a five million
dollar golf course here because it can't sustain itself. You
are going to get a very flat golf course where if you can spend
the money you start creating the hills and the sand traps and
the valley's and the fairways.
Mr. Ward: Rich, normally the concept with the land plan and
golf course is the lots are going to build the course and the
maintenance and the upkeep of the course then becomes a
management package, so much a year for membership or it gets
turned over to another agency to run or whatever. Do you feel
comfortable with what numbers are there.
Mr. Israel: I believe the golf course itsel~ has to be self
sustaining O.K.. Basically, what the lots are doing is actually
taking the land value out of the equation. If we had to buy
this piece of property and just create a golf course, we would
have to spend five million dollars just to buy the land and
another five million dollars to make the club and the clubhouse.
Mr. Orlowski: The owner owns the land.
Mr. Israel: Correct, but it still has a value.
Mr. Orlowski: Who is doing it? Are you doing it or is 'he
doing it?
Mr. Israel: Is who doing it?
Mr. Orlowski: Who is the owner.
Mr. Israel: The owner of this property is Harvey PolOck,
current.
Mr. McDonald: In contract?
Mr. Israel: He owns it in title. There are three parcels here
which are being combined and he owns two of them free title and
the other one is owned by the estate of his father.
PLANNING BOARD 32 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. McDonald: You were going to have one hundred lots and
assuming with a three million dollar cost so you have to clear
thirty thousand dollars a lot for the lots to pay for the golf
course. He is going the other way around and saying that he is
going to use the lots to take in the land and subsidize the golf
course off of its own activities.
Mr. Israel: I don't know if this should be discussed at the
Planning Board because it is financial but, again I say this
golf course has to be created before the subdivision.
Mr. Orlowski: Why don't you just do the golf course?
Mr. Israel: We may do that~
Mr. Orlowski: That probably would work.
Mr. McDonald: I understand where you are coming from about the
financial question being uncertain but because of the nature of
this project and the uncertainties in the code it is important
from our standpoint to know that it is going to happen before we
get into it too much. Obviously, you can't work out all the
details. But the finances are what this is really all about.
Can this work financially?
Mr. Israel: Can it work financially?
Mr. McDonald:- That is the critical thing.
Mr. Israel: O.K., we will try to do it this way O.K.? There
are ten thousand foot of roads, ten thousand foot of roads will
eight million dollar figure there which is six million dollars
O.K..? That pays for the land plus profit. The golf course
itself again, you are estimating a minimum of three million with
the club~house and everything i~ will be probably closer to four
amd one half. If we can sell 200 memberships at $20~000.00 a
piece you now have four million dollars and it can hold itself.
There are always annual fees O.K., those annual fees should
cover the running of the golf course O.K.. It would also be
additional income from the clubhouse as far as revenues probably
catering,.things of that nature, accessory uses. That is the
basic plan here.
Mr. McDonald: The reason you are saying your bond is so low is
because you are actually planning on building the golf course
first.
PLANNING BOARD 33 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: Well, if you are going to try and get the value of
the lot with the amenity. The amenity has to be created. If
you are going to create a condominium complex, the rule of thumb
is the first thing you do is create the clubhouse. You may not
have one unit built but if a person comes there and says, oh,
look at this they have tennis courts and a swi~L~ing pool and a
sauna and again one of the major problems of todays development
and why you see a lot of developments failing is they either
haven't done that or they never had the financial backing to
keep that clubhouse open for the three years with only having
five people there. Because in the beginning of the development
you have those problems.
Mr. Israel: I'm going to say it is a new concept for Southold.
A lot of them in Florida, like Mark just said are having their
problems. I think here Chat the demand is good enough that it
can be created. I think if the Town, if that is one of their
concerns, that anybody can go there and play, I think those can
be addressed.
Mr. McDonald: Is one hundred acres for a nine hole normal?
Mr. Israel: This is eighteen and you have one hundred and
forty-six acres.
Mr. Ward: I think that one of the things we're dealing with is
that the structure of roads and everything is heavy because of
the fact that it is single and separate lots and it is probably
the way the market is. You know, you get into the Westchester
course, the condo's, there are a lot of them that are in
trouble.
Mr. Israel: It's possible to do this as a condominium but I
think what is going to happen then is that I think you are going
to have, I'm going to say, maybe a cluster of buildings here and
I could get away without putting in a major r~ad. I could just
put down some asphalt. I could put down a path.
Mr. McDonald: What are the impediments you are running into
now? I'm sure I could pick off some but I would like to see how
you see the main impediments?
Mr. Israel: With the Town?
Mr. McDonald: Of course, what else?
Mr. Israel: I think their use of open space, they still haven't
decided what they want it .to be when it grows up. I think it is
a new thing, the open space, it has only been around for four or
five years of clustering and things of that nature. They are
addressing or trying to address the problems with having open
space and homeowners owning it. I think the idea of the
variable lot size was a good idea. I think someone should be
responsible for the open space and it being limited in its use
~LANNING BOARD 34 APRIL 22, 1991
and even its building envelope. I would say if this was all
open space as it is shown, I think it should be covenanted that
building will be allowed in this area except for maybe a little
building that houses some kind of water station or water pump or
sprinkler. I think you want to pretty much accept it for what
it is and limit its expansion. That's the whole concept was to
leave it open, I guess the watershed area is etc. etc.. The
other thing about this piece because I think it is so unique
that there aren't many pieces left where you can assemble two or
three hundred areas that there isn't many places where you can
have a golf course whether it had development in it or not. I
think the development is needed only to help bolster the cost of
creating it. You are not going to get financial backers who
say, hey, I'm not doing this so that I can go play golf on
Sunday. I think that they have to see that it is a viable
project. I think that banks will have to see that is a viable
project and I think we need to create as much revenue from a
piece of property and you can to make it happen.
Mr. McDonald:
some way to
to code.
Is this a zone change or do you want to just find
liberate the open space so you can go ahead and do
Mr. Israel: My concept originally was not to go for a zone
change. I think any zone change you do will be considered to be
spot zoning. The whole concept here is that we are not
increasing yield, we are not increasing density, we are just
utilizing a large mass of land which is left after doing the
clustering. I think that it possibly can be done with that
variable lot size concept with its restrictions.
Mr. McDonald: You mean, in variable lot size, you are talking
about a large lot.
Mr. Israel: Right. You're going to have one hundred and three,
three quarter acre lots and you are going to have one one-
hundred and forty six acre lot with covenants and restrictioD~
on its future development and its use.
Mr. McDonald: You don't envision people living there having
control over this lot in any way.
Mr. Israel: Unless they are a member of the cl~h.
Mr. McDonald: But,-the two of them are separate entities.
people who have mutual ownership but the two entities are
separate from each other.
The
Mr. Israel: Correct. In other words, this actually makes this
person an owner of just this lot, they are under the covenants
and restrictions of the whole development.
Mr. McDonald: Not necessarily, you wouldn't necessarily have
any say at all.
PLANNING BOARD 35 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: He has no ownership right in that last lot. Except
maybe a right to join, where he cannot be denied. The only
other thing in this plan which may have to be addressed is we
did create this recreational center here which is really for the
use of the homeowners but yet would probably be part of this
club also. I mean if the homeowners wanted to use this pool,
there could probably be a pool membership just for them. You
know, things of that nature.
Mr. McDonald: 'But then you are back down to paying park and
recreation fee on each lot. Either it is their park and
recreation or its a large lot.
Mr. Israel: Well, let me ask you a question. I thought there
was no more park. I thought it was just a fee per lot.
Mr. McDonald: No. 'If we ask for it.
Mr. Israel: By creating this you are saying I could avoid?
Mr. McDonald: If we felt that served the needs of the community.
Mr. Israel: What is the fee per lot now
Mr. McDonald: A couple of thousand.
Mr. Orlowski: $2000.00 per lot.
Mr. Israel: That is a nice fee. I guess the real question is,
can we proceed with the Planning Board to go forth on this and
is it in their power?
Mr. McDonald: I don't think we have the power as long as the
section of power talks about passive use.
Mr. Israel: Now you are going back to talking about open space
under the variable lot size you don't have open space.
Mr. McDonald: I disagree with that. We ~about how.
it is owned, you are talking about how it t about
what it is. ~he Way I rea~ the ~ode, that i Lot is still
open space Which is going to be owned By one person ra~her than
a homeowners association or any other form of o~ership. Also,
the way I read the State Law that empowers us that is still open
space, now they don't talk about this passive use. They don't
mention that specifically, that is in our code. Talks about the
passive use of it and I know other Towns have used open sp~ce, I
believe. Some towns have used open space for a golf course. I
haven't seen it out here but I think they have used it in
Commack, when it just happened I think that is how they did
it. But, I think as long as that passive section stays in our
code 'that is sort of an impediment to us to entertain this.
PLANNING BOARD 36 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: Do you currently have a zone that would allow this
as you would see it planned?
Mr. McDonald: Yes, the AC.
Mr. Israel: If this was an R-80, would that make a difference
where you are not required to cluster.
Mr. McDonald: You are required to cluster.
.Mr. Israel: In a R-807
Mr. McDonald: In a R-40.
Mr. Israel: How can you cluster in a R-40 zone?
Mr. McDonald: Go down to thirty.
Mr. Israel: It was suggested to me that I should go for a zone
change for RR.
Mr. Ward: When you looked at that what did that do?
Mr. Israel: I looked at that and the problem was ~thatRR
seems to really key in on water uses. I guess if I wanted to
put a motel here with a golf course I probably could do that.
Mr. McDonald: The mixed residential use that is the problem in
the RR. You are going to have individual residential lots.
Mr. Israel: Normally, it would be a site plan. I mean, we are
looking at this as being simple ownership of these lots. I can
create a condominium O.K., with you having the proprietary
rights of owning this lot and occupying them so I mean if it is
a form of ownership, that can change. If you said to me gee,
can we site plan this and create, and I would probably create a
co-op, which wouldbe a corporation that would own these
hundred lots and they would sell proprietary leases to the
person who wanted to buy that lot.
Mr. McDonald: You don't have to co-op it for. us to site plan
it. The fact that it is a cluster automatically site plans it.
We don't usually exercise the full authority of the site plan to
cluster. According to the code we can do everything right down
to the elevations of the buildings in a clustered subdivision.
We rarely exercise it. It is simply a matter of it being a site
plan. The fact that it is a cluster automatically puts it in
the province of a site plan. If that helps you, I don't know.
Mr. Israel: The other comment was to change it to R-40 and by
doing so I could cluster it and say O.K., I'm only going to get
a hundred lots which is allowed by code O.K., and I'm actually
giving up a hundred lots to create the golf course which would
be allowed under normal zoning.
PLANNING BOARD 37 APRIL 22, 1991
el: This is a R-40.
Mr. M~Donald: That follows down to the R-80, R-40~
Mr. Israel: Well, the not for profit use is another problem
with the public golf course because it has to create profit to
pay for itself.
Mr. McDonald: No, it doesn't have to create profit. It depends
how you look at profit.
Mr. Israel: You can make any company not for profit. The end
of the year you just say, you've been a nice person, here is a
hundred thousand dollars. So I think you are 3ust eluding
yourself.
Mr. McDonald: I don't want to elude myself but I am constricted
by the document in front of me.
Mr. Israel: O.K., so really we are trying to figure out how to
go through that document and create this and if a zone change is
what has to be done, but again, there is no zone that I can see
clearly addresses this.
Mr. McDonald: These are things that are more appropriately
brought up by.some kind of a committee. But, I imagine if you
want a brain storm you could think you don't want to really
change the zone you only want an added use. If you created a
golf course overlay zone, to be used at the discretion of the
Town Board where they would overlay this on preexisting
residential properties that was petitioned by the owner at their
discretion they could make a decision. You could designate
areas of the town that would be eligible for this.
Mr. Israel: I think one thing that has happened is that Harvey
just doesn't want to create spot zoning.
Mr. McDonald: That is why you don't do that. By creating the
overlay zones, you map out broad areas. Anyone in those areas
can come in and make the application for it. It is the
discretion of the Board whether they grant that application or
not.
Mr. Israel: Our solution, was that the Town Board actually
allow golf courses and open space on properties that have a mass
of more than 200 acres.
Mr. McDonald: That is open to litigation as well when you find
out that there is only one property in Town that that complies
with.
PLANNING BOARD 38 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: That is one of the problems so that is why Harvey
didn't want to do it.
Mr. Ward: I think the large lot, we should pursue that some
more. From the management and everything else point of view
that is the best.
Mr. Israel: It is not a change of zone.
Mr. McDonald: It is the consensus that if this golf course is
economically viable and that if there is access to the public
that we are prepared to support it and investigate what ever it
takes to help make it happen as long as those things are
reasonable ones.
Mr. Ward: I think that is the way we feel about it. I would
just say that we would want to see some assurances. In other
words, it can't be one hour a week it has-to be something like
down at Island's End where people come out here and stay in a
hotel or a summer home and they have the opportunity for another
place to play. It is another benefit to the Town.
Mr. Israel: But, it can still be a membership course where
members will have first right.
Mr. Ward: Even the p~blic courses you find, you take Port Jeff,
it is a membership course basically. It may be public, it is
owned by the p~,hlic, it is managed by the public and the fees
there are basically collected through membership fees.
Mr. McDonald: The Town Board sent you.
Mr. Israel: Yes, after they didn't know what to do with me.
Mr. McDonald: Should we draft a letter tothe Town Board with
the conditions we discussed here and that we support this and we
would like to meet with them or whoever to find some way
agreeable to approach it. He is looking for help.
Mr. Orlowski: Do you have a problem with the p~hlic aspect.?
You said you are leaning towards the private.
Mr. Israel: Only due to financial questions. In other words,
here the way it would normally work and as long as I 1know I can
have private members, I am going to say, was in order for me to
get $20,000.00 a membership it has.to have a little big of
exclusivity and I don't mean that to be in any discretionary
manner. I think that it just means that if a person wants to
play golf and then go back to the clubhouse and sit in a nice
little quiet hole he can, and not be bothered, and you know it
may end up that it is open to the public and there may be two
sets of locker rooms, one for members and one for non-members.
PLANNING BOARD 39 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. McDonald: You can have priority rights, there is no problem
with that~ I don't think we see a problem with that. It is
just that there is some availability to the general public.
Mr. Latham: We don't want to restrict this. We want to see it
fly.
Mr. Orlowski: Are you going toinvestigate that and get back
to us?
Mr. Israel: No, you are going to send a letter to the Town
Board.
Mr. Orlowski: Well, first I would like to see what we are
going to get before we send a letter. What we talked about and
what he is going to put in writing might be two different things.
Mr. McDonald: Right now, they are investigating a methbd to get
far enough along to justify putting together a go easy plan.
Mr. Israel: This little drawing here cost about twelve thousand
dollars to put together which is cheap. The expensive part now
comes to taking it further and to get a name brand gold course
you are talking not ten thousand dollars, not twenty thousand
dollars, you're talking about probably, Mr. Ward would you
know? I would think it would cost close to $200,000.00 dollars
just to get plans made up.
Mr. Ward: It could be more.
Mr. McDonald: I'm not proposing that we send a letter
committing ourselves to the final plan. What I'm saying is
sending a letter saying that we feel the project has enough
merit that we would like to examine ways to make it happen
assuming that the other questions are answered. We,can't pass
final approval on something before it is in front of us but
right now there is nothing for them to justify expenditure of
any further monies because there is no way the code let's them
do it.
Mr. Ward: How about getting to us in writing at least the
basics of it. In other words, if you would like to pursue .a
cluster subdivision, if you would like to have it where we have
one large lot. The lot, the 146 acre would be one large lot,
part of the cluSter subdivision and give us just an outline of
what you did tonight so that is in our record that we can rely
on that and pass our judgement on to the Town Board. I think
that would be fair, we have minutes but a letter from you would
sell this out and that you feel that the large lot because of x,
y, z would be the way to go.
Mr. Israel: One more thing, let me just ask a simple question.
I am working on this piece in East Marion where we had the flag
PLANNING BOARD 40 APRIL 22, 1991
lot with the 25 feet and the 8 foot road next to it. I have not
been able to get access through Stars Road.
Mr. McDonald: Is that legal proceeding terminated or is it just
in limbo?
Mr. Israel: It is basically I dropped the suit because it was
just getting ridiculous. The lawyers were getting rich. What I
wanted to do was go in off Route 25. There are currently two
pieces there. Herb owns a piece of about eleven acres and I own
a piece of about ten. My concept was to bring in a major road
which is only 24 feet in width in the beginning because that was
where we were restricted. There is about a 32 foot right of way
there and then if you guys wanted a fifty foot right of way once
I can do it I will gladly do it. I want to create nine one acre
~lots along the current fire road and improving that road to a
major road and taking my lot and creating a flag lot~that
reaches back to that which will be a single and separate ten
acre parcel never to be divided again.
Mr. Ward: Is this the same one we sent with the three lots in
the back.
Mr. Israel: You said if I went over three lots I would have to
create a major. I~m willing to do that. The problem was, this
was the sketches of it coming in off of Star's Road. It can't
be done so what I would like to do is bring a major road up
here, create nine lots which run this parcel and create a flag
lot that goes into the ten acres. This is all R-80 as far as
zoning.
Mr. Ward: The reason you went to 25, is you were only going to
have three lots in here and service it with a minor road.
Mr. Israel: We don't have fifty- foot here so my question tO
you is.
Mr. Ward: You'll never get a major road back there because you
are blocking yourself in so now you are coming back asking us to
make an exception.
Mr. Israel: How do I develop that piece back there?
Mr. Ward: I have no idea but we told you that in the beginning.
Mr. Israel: Let me ask you a question. If I were to buy a flag
lot that made it back to the thing could I do a minor off my
road? If I bought from Herb fifty feet which gets me back to my
original right of way.
Mr. Ward: Where about's?
talking about.
I have no idea what you are
PLANNING BOARD 41 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: There is two ways to sneak around it, I don't sneak
around but, I could actually buy fifty feet of Herbs end of the
property which would give me flag out to here. I currently have
a twenty foot right of way which is inefficient.
Mr. McDonald: You don't have it here.
Mr. Israel: The only thing, I could create a major road so I
would have to get that up to fifty feet? What is the use of the
fifty foot right-6f-way? We don't want to make the road public.
Mr. McDonald: I would like to ask you a question. Why, when
you did the subdivision and this was brought up why wasn't it an
issue but it is an issue now?
Mr. Israel: Well, because we thought we could get Star Road
access.
Mr. McDonald: Did you discuss that with the Planning Board?
Mr. Israel: These are two single and separate lots.
Mr. McDonald: Yeah, but you knew then what was going to happen
didn't you?
Mr. Israel: No, these are still two single and separate lots.
I have two options here. One is that me and Herb combine and
try to do something that is feasible or I can take his piece and
do the minor as we originally suggested and then I can come in
with the minor on mine. The problem is that I am a land locked
parcel. Do I not have the right of subdivision if I don't have
good access?
Mr. McDonald: You are not landlocked. You have access, don't
you? It's just not sufficiently wide for the major.
Mr. Israel: No, for the minor. I can do a minor on mine.
Mr. McDonald: That is what we are saying, you had access, you
don't have sufficient access for the major so you would not be
denied your right to subdivide but you could be denied the right
to get as many lots as you might want because you don't have the
access.
Mr. Israel: On the ten acre piece where I am landlocked and I
have the twenty foot access, how many lOts can I get?
Mr. McDonald: You have a C & R?
Mr. Israel: No I have my parcel, which is the ten acre parcel
closest to Star Road has a twenty foot access onto a
right-of-way which is the fire road number one which varies in
size and it goes down to eight feet.
PLANNING BOARD 42 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Ward: When you asked for the three lots you made a point of
it and said look, I'm only going to get three lots back there.
Mr. Israel: No, you said to me for the minor. In other words,
if I went for more than three I would have to create a major
subdivision.
Mr. Orlowski: We told you that you don't have enough road to
do it.
Mr. Ward: You don't have enough road there, we told you that in
the beginning. You are trying to put more lots back there then
the road is going to allow.
Mr. Israel: So you are saying that I should increase that up to
fifty feet.
Mr. Ward: But now, you are going to have to take it out of a
lot right?
Mr. Israel: The reason we made the twenty-five foot flag was
because the house was only forty two feet from the road or from
the fire rOad. So we were trying to save the character of that
house. There is eight feet to the other side that everybody has
a right to use and I think one of the problems in this
particular area is they don~t want a public road here. The
residents.
Mr. McDonald: I would say nobody wants a road.
Mr. Israel: If it was a major road, a twenty four foot wide
road which can be done in a thirty foot space. All the
utilities can be in it's own easement, then the only thing that
the fifty foot right of way is needed for is to dent it and if
that is not one of the considerations then there isn't any ---.
Mr. Orlowski: I'll tell you what, we will give you one extra
lot so instead of three back here , you can make. four, one, two,
three, four. Five acre lots and you don't have to go to the
Health Department and you are all set.
Mr. McDonald: You still have control of thais lot, right? You
can come in here, right?
Mr. Israel: The problem is, there is a preexisting road and we
Should utilize that.
Mr. McDonald: It's not big enough. One of the problems is that
it has every appearance that this is self-imposed.
Mr. Israel: This is a solution.
Mr. McDonald: It is a solution to your own problem.
PLANNING BOARD 43 APRIL 22, 1991
Mr. Israel: The other solution I could ask fOr is if I could
get a road from Mr. Reese? In other words, he is putting in
a major road, I would pay for the road which would attach up to.
his road.
Mr. McDonald: I'm not even sure how the road is going to come
out.
Mr. Israel: I mean, I had to bring my road to the end of the
property line to service others needs.
Fir. McDonald: If he is prepared to take a much lower yield,
we're prepared to make an exception.
Mr. Israel: I have twenty acres here.
Mr. Orlowski: I entertain a motion to adjourn. All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. McDonald, Mr. Ward, Mr. Latham, Mr. Orlowski.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Being there was no further business to be brought before the
Board, the meeting was adjourned at 9:30 p.m..
Bennett Orlowski Jr., Chairman
Re~ctfully ~ubmitted,
RECEIVED AND FILED BY
THE SOILTHOLD TOWN CLERK
Town Clork, Town ~f Soutlaold