HomeMy WebLinkAboutTR-03/03/1987-SBOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
Town Hall, 53095 Main Road
P.O. Box 728
Southold, New York 11971
TELEPHONE
I516} 765-1892
March 3, 1987
Minutes - Special Meeting
7:30 P.M.
Present were:
President Henry P. Smith
Vice President John Bredemeyer, III
Trustee Phillip J. Goubeaud
Trustee Albert Krupski
Trustee Ellen M. Larsen
Mrs. Dove
Mr. & Mrs. Moore
Benjamin Herzweig
Dr. Martin Garrell
Town Attorney Tasker
Secretary Ilene Pfifferling
Trustee Bredemeyer called the meeting to order. The Board discussed this
matter and the following resolution was adopted by the Board. [Transcript
of the meeting has been typed under separate cover for the file.]
On motion made by Trustee Smith seconded by Trustee Bredemeyer it was
RESOLVED that the Town Trustees will vote on the Application submitted by
Thomas W. Cramer/William Moore at their next regular meeting in April, notice
having been published in the newspaper to meet the S,E.Q.R. requirements at
least ten days before the meeting.
Vote of Board: Ayes: Ail - This resolution was declared duly adopted.
Meeting adjourned at 9:05 P.M.
WILLIAM MOORE - MEETING OF MARCH 3, 1987 - DISCUSSION
President Henry P. Smith
Vice-President John Bredemeyer, III
Trustee Phillip J. Goubeaud
Trustee Albert Krupski
Trustee Ellen M. Larsen
Mrs. Dove
Mr. & Mrs. William Moore
Benjamin Nerzweig
Town Attorney Robert W. Tasker
Secretary Ilene Pfifferling
Dr. Martin Garrell
Trustee Bredemeyer advised that this meeting is a continuation of the work session
held on February 24, 1987 which was recessed. The Board is present to further
discuss the DEIS Impact statement and the Response Comments. Ne advised that
the applicant has agreed to provide additional answers to questions for the
Board before a decision is made as to "Who will and what form the Final
Impact Statement will take". Trustee Bredemeyer advised that the announcement
for the meeting was sent to the newspapers so the official notification was
given. Trustee Bredemeyer gave a capsule summary of what happened at the
meeting held on February 24th.: The Trustees distilled down questions on the
project essentially ~o two broad areas. One being a question of the flow and
nutrient loading of the pond, and there were still questions on the wildlife
survey. I know since that time, some of the Trustees have had an opportunity
to talk to people, who they felt were experts or knowledgeable in the field.
Several of us have gone back to the site several times to answer questions that
we have had. I guess the Moore's have had something from Professor Black?
Trustee Krupski read out loud the following from Professor John A. Black:
Dear Mr. Cramer, Enclosed are my opinions regarding the possibility of the
Meadow Lane property being considered suitable habitat for threatened,
endangered or protected species. As noted, I can not conceive of this area
providing significant open spa~ for anything but common "Dooryard" species.
I would not recommend any further studies; after all the subject property is but
0.5 acre~! Ind~eed,~ny~eputabte~s~£~nrist would concur. To carry out
further surveys would, in my opinion, be an unconscionable additional expense
and serve to inflate consulting fees. Additional studies would add nothing
in terms of meaningful data. Sincerely, John A. Black - dated March 2,
1987.
Trustee Krupski: Is this an additional letter?
Mr. Herzweig: The first letter is a covering letter to Cramer, then the
second letter is his opinion.
Mr. Moore: He said enc'losed are my opinions, so I presume the second letter
is his opinion.
Trustee Krupski: Dear Mr. Cramer: In reference to questions raised regarding
threatened species on or in the vicinity of the Meadow Lane property I refer
you to my 1986 observations. I did not note, nor would I expect to find,
any threatened, endangered or protected species on this property. As noted,
the black duck population has been in decline but this is due to a variety
of factors and will certainly not be affected by development of the Meadow
Lane property. The entire undeveloped portion of Mattituck Estates east
Page 2. - March 3, 1987
of Meadow Lane is approximately 1.5 acres [both uplands and marsh].
This is insignificant when compared to the available habitat at Maratooka
Pond, Deep Hole, etc. In other words, the total open space on the east
side of Meadow Lane is a very small area and the subject property smaller
still. The status of this property is ecologically insignificant and I
doubt that any upland species, save for common "Dooryard" birds, would be
found there. Waterfowl has a much more varied and larger habitat available
at Maratooka and Deep Hole. Perhaps the confusion lies in the table giving
possible species. I understand that, for the sake of completeness, this
was included. It certainly does not mean that these species will be found
or are even probable. For example, a bald eagle over head does not mean
that this individual will land on, take up residence upon or use the area
for nesting. Sincerely, John A. Black - Dated: March 2, 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: Thank you. I know during the last week we had an opportunity
to talk to several people who were involved in birding in the area. This
is a concern, I had an opportunity to talk to someone who is involved with
routine bird counts in audubon who does nesting surveys. I know that he
would be willing to do additional work gratis and he has what we would call
a "Professional" standing and would be willing to look at it. Is this Mrs.
Dove?
Trustee Larsen: Yes it is.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Mrs. Dove is involved in the Audubon Society. I would
like to hear some of her thoughts on this? Possibly we can hammer out[if you will
at the work session what we would reasonably expect to do with this. It
does seem that Professor Black did a very extensive list. I'm speaking
of my own opinion. I went through it again. Where he does talk about possibles
I think that that is where some of the confusion may have arisen. Maybe
Mrs. Dove could tell us, did you have an opportunity to review this?
Mrs. Dove: Yes I did. I had an opportunity to review both the original
listing not by Professor Black, then the revised listing by him. The original
listing was tota%ly]~te. The comments on nesting species were 20
or 25 years old from some old reference that is absolutely not up to date
and has no meaning to it at all.
Trustee Bredemeyer: What about what Professor Black has to say? As far
as his list, it does seem more encompassing? How did you find that? Did
you get a chance to view the site?
Mrs. Dove: I know the site very well. I iive 3/4 of a mile away from there,
and have for the last 20 years been birding~in that area. I'm very familiar
with that site and the bird life and the terrain . I have found Professor
Black's list very incomplete and I have found that the times that he went
there were not adequate to give a very good picture of the bird life. He
said he went there in February, once a week from February 28th to March,
then one day in April and one day in June. Now, that can not give you a
picture of the bird life there at all. First of all the month of May was
skipped. That is the peak month for migratory birds. That place should
be considered a very important resting area and feeding ground for migratory
birds. Both in May and August and September when they migrate back to the
South again.
Page 3. - March 3, 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: You are principally talking about waterfowl species?
Mrs. Dove: No, I'm talking about all kinds of species. I would also like
to comment at this time, that I did include a number of land birds and species
which would be found along the rim of the property where they are going
to build the house and where the trees are. If they do what they say what
they are going to do, which is to remove almost half of the woods there
it would make a big difference in the list I have here of woodland birds.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Let's say, for argument sake, because this is a work
session we have to throw some ideas around. We have a lot of woodland
sites in the town. The Town Trustees have a Wetlands Ordinance to uphold.
It is a difficult thing because we don't have a Woodland ordinance yet.
A lot of the birds you may have noted there would not be part of the Wetland
inventory or necessarily directly derive their needs from wetlands. Would
this site be any more unique, it's wood lands, than any other wood lands
site in the town at this time?
Mrs. Dove: Yes, because of it's association with the water. That would
make it much more attractive to many birds, both nesting and migratory birds.
There are two Warbler's that would easily nest~there, the Yello Warbler and the
Yellow Throated Warbler they like to nest near water.
Trustee Bredemeyer: They do. Do they have have any specific nesting requirements?
Mrs. Dove: Yes, they nest in trees and shrubs.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Do you have any prepared statement to make?
Mrs. Dove: Yes, I do have, it is rather sketchy. If anyone wishes to follow
this in the D.E.I.S. I have been ~con~entr~ting On the response comments. On
page 47, Professor Black visited~the area for a total of 16½ hours, not
claims to have visited the area weekly from February 2 to March 27, a time period
of low numbers'of bird species. Once in April and once in June is not enough
time when the species coun~woul~ h~ ~r~t ~ h~gh~_ Tn M~y: which
would be a peak month for migratory species, he paid no visits. He gave
a total of 31 species. [Listing a Black Chickadee twice.] Then on page
48, He quotes "Bull" extensively. One of the best field ornithologist,
but from out of date data from 1964. There is an abundance of current,
up to date information available. Page 49, He says all of the species observed
are common to Long Island. We cannot be complacent about the status of
any bird with many threats to habitat feeding and resting areas and so forth.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Dept. is presently quite concerned and alarmed
at the sudden decline in numbers of many species of ducks. So that today
the species that you would consider the common species like the mallard
would become a very ra~e and endangered species. This is happening all the
time in the world of ornithology. Black tries to belittle the area because
of its proximity to Deep Hole Creek and Marratooka Lake, and its small size.
This is nog germain. A small area like this is always of value when in
proximity to larger wetlands. He specifically mentions three species. Among
them the Black Crown~i~ht Herhn~ ~It~is~aommonly':found in the whole area.
Page 4. - March 3, 1987
At Marratooka Lake, at Deep Hole Creek and the pond in question. The only
known nesting site of the Black Crown Night Heron in Southold Town is on
Robins Island. They fly from there over to the mainland all the time to
feed and to rest. You can not say that a small place is insignificant,
it is not. It contains the proper type of food or whatever its find. In
the revised table, Black lists threm groups of birds as though they were
one species. Gull -- three or four species can be semn here; Wren-- he ~
lists Wren as one species. There are two species of Wren. The House Wren
and the Carolina Wren which are likely visitors and very possible nesting
species. Warblers he lists as one species. There are about 30 species
that migrate through this area in spring and fall and several that nest
~ere. The common Yellow Throat and the Yellow Warbler would be good nesting
possibilities. Of course, if the woodland was reduced from .23 acres to
.14 acres as stated, the picture would change. I have made an estimate
of 77 species that couldlpossibly be seen in this area as visitors nesting
or over-wintering. The list is based on my familiarity with the site since
I have lived about 3/4 of a mile west on New Suffolk Avenue over looking
Marratooka Lake for twenty years. A final criticism of this "expert" wildlife
survey is that he uses out dated nomenclature for the birds listed, indicating
that he does not keep up to date. The latest changes, which are considerable
were made in 1983 by the American Ornithol_ogy~ Union. I visited the area
on March 2, 1987 for about 10 to 15 minutes. During that time I saw one
Great Blue Heron, 16 Mallards, all in pairs, 21~Red Breasted Mergansers,
2 Ruffle Head, an American Crow, one Belted King Fisher and one House Finch.
The American Crow and the House Finch were not on Mr. Black's list. So
I have to conclude that it was a very superficial examination of the bird
watch there.
Trustee Goubeaud: What type of a study would you recommend to get a better
over all picture of the wildiife there? For how long? At what times?
Mrs. Dove: I think that the minimum time would be April, May, June, July,
August and September. Now, a birder would know what months what birds are
nesting and where. How much tim~ to spend during those months~ You would
no~ spena an equ~ amou~C oz ~fng each one~U~-~os~=%~ont~.~ .........
those are the times that the birds are active, not in the middle of the
winter.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Is May the most critical, as far as migration and nesting?
Mrs. Dove: May, yes, but September is also very significant as far as migration.
That is the returning migration.
Trustee Bredemeyer: As far as migration of birds do you have the same visitants
to a lot both spring and fall? Or is it that varied?
Mrs. Dove: No that is quite varied.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Okay, now the thing is this lot doesn't seem to have
a lot of food. It has cover. What would be the chief value, or would there
be a value to continue a survey into the fall months. I'm thinking in terms
of all the bird species, particularly the ones that are threatened or endangered
species. That we could find a use that they are using the property. They
are nesting on the property. Something very specific. A reason why a fall
survey would be necessary over, let's say an indepth look for a very short
Page 5. - March 3, 1987
period of time. Let's say May. Apparently May was left out.
Mrs. Dove: In May the major migratory route of most of the land birds is
up the Hudson River Valley. We get a spill over out here on the East End.
But we don't get the fu%l number of migratory species that do go up that
valley. In September that migration is coastal. You do get a heavier migration.
As far as food goes, insects, there is all sorts of food there at the end
of the summer that is available to the migrating species that has to feed
on their way south.
Trustee Bredemeyer: In looking this over, did you notice anything in the
way of species that is protected by law. In other words that would leave
this Board with no alternative but to take a further look. It's all well
and good to say that there is 30 species of Warblers on the lot.
Mrs. Dove: They are all protected by law.
Trustee Bredemeyer: No, I'm talking about the protection afforded by the
Protected Species Act or Threatened Species. We are in a situation that
this Board is running out of time. The applicants have given us, and of
course we have tried to get additional expert opinions to try to get an
idea where the comments in the draft statement are coming from and how we
can deal with them. Although a lot of us have experience with birding or
what ever, we do not have the stature of a Professor or yourself. So we
are coming up against some needs for making a proper decision, and working
with the applicant to get this going.
Mrs. Dove: If you were going to make a decision on the threatened or endangered
species, or nesting water fowl species, you are going to have a very small
list of birds practically none.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Okay. Thank you. Does anyone on the Board, or Mr.
Herzweig, Mr. or Mrs--_M~pgre have ~ny questions?
Mr. Moore: No, I think that last comment was a very telling one. I only
ask that again, and I respect your knowledge of the birds, in a general
sense I need any more specific because of your residence and location of
the area. I point again to the size of the property. I don't want to get
into the detail. I think that you should focus on the concerns. From where
the information is to be gathered and again be site specific. I think the
last comment about the endangered species was an important one.
Trustee Goubeaud: Mrs. Dove, what about t~e Tern that is listed by Mr.
Black on this revised edition...
Mrs. Dove: That is a common Tern. That is a threatened species. I have
on my list the least Tern that nests on Robins Island also. That is endangered.
They would fly over the area, or feed in the pond°
Trustee Bredemeyer: Would they be affected by a house on that site?
Mrs. Dove: How can yQ~-'~k~,~ ~q~se and put it in the center of the headwaters
of freshwater drainage area for Deep Hole Creek and say that it is not going
to impact the wildlife?
Page 6. - March 3. 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: There seems to be, Tern activity doesn't seem to be
affected by the presence of man or of structures.
Mrs. Dove: That is what has made them endangered species. The presence of
man.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Or is it on the nesting. I'm having trouble here.
In other words, do they feed in the coastal areas of the headwaters or are
we talking nesting here?
Mrs. Dove: They feed over freshwater sometimes, they feed over salt water.
Mainly over salt water.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We have some of our intensely used marina areas that
seem to have a large tern population on the islands and immediatelM off
shore. If there is a distinction to be made, in other words, if you can
say that this tern can be nesting on'the site which doesn't seem to be
tern nesting habitat, as opposed to feeding. That is the only question
I had.
Mrs. Dove: If you placed a house on that marsh area, it would have a considerable
impact to the whole health of that marsh.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Okay, those are other areas of our discussion. If there
are no other questions I would like to say that we appreciate what you had
to say this evening. We may in fact, if we can possibly use your services
in the future if any additional questions arise on this site specific look,~
we would appreciate it.
Mrs. Dove: I'm very happy to be of service to you.
Mr. Moore: As part of you comments, for my own information, I would like
to know what your background is in birdinz.
Mrs. Dove: I have taught NaturaliHistory over a period of ten years in four
different schools and in adult education, in Nassau County, Great Neck,
Port Washington, Manhasset~ have beer the founder of two Autobahn ~ocieties
one in Port Washington and one in Mattituck. I don't have a~y formal.
Mr. Moore: I wasn't putting you on the spot. I was curious to know what
your background was?
Mrs. Dove: No, No, I'm very happy to tell you. I'm a self educated person.
I have been studying and working, since I was a child. I have always been
involved in birding.
Trustee Smith: Mrs. Dq~e, would you consider birding one of your devoted
hobbies? Do you consider yourself an expert in the field?
Mrs. Dove: Yes, I consider birding a devoted hobby, and yes I consider
myself an expert in this field.
Mr. Herzweig: Has anyone else ever considered your testimony as an expert
Page 7. - March 3, 1987
in birding. Have you ever testified in a court or Administrative proceeding
where there is a Judge or any other Administrative Tribunal have ever accepted
your testimony as that of an expert?
Mrs. Dove: No, I don't think so.
Trustee Smith: I would think that her testimony would be very critical.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Being so familiar with the area.
MSs. Moore: She just popped out of the blue.
Trustee Bredemeyer: As a matter of fact, I should have asked for her qualifications
up front. We had discussed several people to get some information back
and forth. We had asked for resumes. Quite honestly I had forgot to ask
what her background was. Drl Garretl is here. Would you like to join us?
Dr. Garrell: I just brought in the statement. I think everyone knows me.
I'm going to take off.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Distilling what Mrs. Dove said, if May is a critical
month, we are talking about our responsibility as far as endangered and
threatened species. Every woodland and every corner of town, the parking
lot at A & P could have one of these unique birds show up during the migration.
I just wonder if we could look at this during the month of May, a little
more thoroughly as part of the study. Is that out of the possibility of
the Board or the applicant?
Trustee Krupski: Mrs. Dove seemed to think that September was important
to. If the applicant and the Board can't agree on what an important time
is to get a good idea of what the area is, then we can call in a third party.
This way all parties could be satisfied.
Trustee
species
spot or
I think
Sm_i_th: _I~_think_,~h~ main_Doncer~ pf the Board is the endangered
and the nesting. I'm sure that there could be a visitor to that
any other spot. It has a lot to do with different weather conditions.
our main concern is during the nesting time.
Trustee
this is
when we
all the
Goubeaud: If a species is on the critical or endangered list and
a-feeding source or habitat area for feeding for a particular bird,
take a habitat away from the bird we are endangering the species
more.
Trustee Krupski: I agree with you. It is just one more area that, not
only the threatened ones but the ones on the special concerns, right down
the list of priorities, that you could loose a habitat.
Trustee Smith: I agree with what Jeff and A1 are saying. We need some
documentation on this.
Mr. Moore: You specifically asked about Endangered and Threatened species
on this site specific piece of property. Mrs. Dove said that it would be
very small to non-exist~nt~ You~have your report before you in a D.E.I.S.
which was accepted by this Board as thorough after it was reviewed by Mr.
Emilita. These questions were not raised then. Theoretically the time
Page 8. - March 3, 1987
frame in which that list was prepared, the original list and the revised list
magical things have not happened on that piece of property that suddenly changed
that analysis. As she closed her comments tonight, she also said, "Threatened
and endangered would not be a list that she would find". I don't, I'm starting
to put on my lawyers hat again.
Trustee Bredemeyer: That all right.
William Moore: I don't like that. The bottom line is, you can sit there and
shake your head Albert, but the bottom line is that half-acre piece of property
has been put through an incredible process. Now, if you are not happy with the
process address its weaknesses, where ever they lie.
Trustee Krupski: That report was superficial.
William Moore: You accepted it. We can go on. I don't want to prey.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We never voted as to it's thoroughness or it's completeness.
William Moore: It is really unfair to allow a full year to go by and then come
back and penalize us and say that we want to come back and say we are contemplating
September for migratory patterns.
Trustee Bredemeyer: May had already transpired, we did not get the statement
until after September.
William Moore: You had a D.E.I.S. in January for contemplation and review.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Mrs. Dove said that the list would not likely be larger.
She didn't say that there was something missed on the endangered or threatened
list that was here. In other words she didn't say that there was a defect on
the endangered or threatened list. It looks to me like we don't have a woodland
code here. It looks to me like the endangered or threatened may have a lot more
to do wit]Y~-bfrds--that are movzng over the water here. Still they are not
going to be inhibited in feeding, provided it is a reasonable house construction.
It is no different from Mr. Costanza or from~the gentlemen who is south on the
pond or other houses on the pond. I would like to see another intense look over
a very short period of time. I think she raised a question about May, and I
think that that is a very legitimate question. There was very little done during
that time. If certainly something showed up that a person with professional
[If you will] standing, that would hold up in a court of law, that attorneys could
deal with would be something that would be a credit to this process which has been
extremely exhaustive. We have had a very good working relationship so far. It
seems that Mr. Cramer worked overtime on getting this document out. It is a
very hard process for every one.
William Moore: You are right.
Trustee Bredemeyer: At this point it is our turn to take a section of the burden.
It seems to me that if we get the birders we should be the ones to look at the
bird species with people that would have some credit.
Town Attorney %asker: Does anyone know how many birds we are talking about?
Page 9. - March 3, 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: We are probably only talking about .....
Town Attorney Tasker: An insignificant amount it would seem.
Trustee Bredemeyer: One endangered species doesn't leave us any latitude.
Town Attorney Tasker: Let's take one tenth of one percent of that endangered
species. Would that concern you?
Trustee Bredemeyer: It would concern me. I Can't speak for the rest of the
Board?
Trustee Goubeaud: If one bird or one animal is endangered, it is endangered
for a specific reason. That means .....
Town Attorney Tasker: It has to be significant?
Trustee Goubeaud: Bob, you think about it? You brought something up that really
bothers me. If an animal is endangered, it is endangered because people are killing
or destroying or totally obliterating this pgrticular species. It doesn't matter
if it is an animal, fish or human. One person or one animal, yes, it does make
a difference. It is significant!
Trustee Bre~emeyer: I don't think that we are asking for a hunt to find the
last individual?
William Moore: From the applicant's prospective, it has reached that level.
It has become a search to the sublime. I gave the example last week. I thought
that when we were all finished we were looking for some substantiation of some
of the comments that our experts had raised last week. One was of groundwater,
and I hope that we don't analyze the hell out of that again. I think that we
have a letter coming. I think that if you look at the process, the S.E.Q.R.A.
process, it has not been done correctly. A full year has gone by. I'm not
sa~%~g___t~.~ ~t wa~ _ ~ don._~_.~e_~h~a~ .~_b~b~in terms of wha~ was submitted to vou~ But
that we didn't sneak by and put past you a lousy document, i will have people
sit and tell you that that was a~fine document, Mr. Emilita, for one. So it is
not as so we are sitting here playing v.ery cute, technical gamesS~gha, we caught
you guys in a screw up, y~a-ccepl%2F-~document and now we are gozng to hold you
to it] when we know it is a lousy document. That is not the case. It is a
thorough document. S.E.Q.R. is to be applied within the realm of reason. Now reason
as applied to a subdivision, of which this is one parcel. We are not talking
about 225 condo's being built on a peninsula as heretofore been in it's natural
state. It is a rule of reason. You have more than enough information to justify
the determination, and granting a permit. Far more than you would ever need if
someone were to challenge you in a court of law for having granted a permit.
That is my professional opinion, I'm wearing my lawyers hat. You have enough
information. And you have had it.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I think that part of the reason that the Board has been
working with you and trying to come to a conclusion on this, I guess we feel
that we are within grasps of being able to mitigate impacts we look at it
Page 10. - March 3, 1987
that there are essentially two potential impacts we feel have not been
addressed to the satisfaction of the Board. We wanted to lay them to rest
so we would have no option but to approve, with mitigating measures, as
opposed to deny. Some of us believe that the process is not suppose to
search for that mythical one animal that may show up. It is designed to
look at some of the worst case impacts and try to mitigate them so that
they don't exist. It is a tool to the benefit of the applicant, because
it eliminates the potential for a denial. That's why I think we want to
go that extra distance to get those answers. That is where we are coming
from.
William Moore: That was the spirit that we continued on. I haven't counted
the days. That was the whole spirit that we continued on.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I know Dr. Garrell wanted to say something.
Dr. Garrell: There is the statement that I brought in, basically from someone
from Brookhaven. I would like to leave that with you. The idea of it
is that the groundwater analysis so far presents severe probi~~. Dave
Emilita is not a ground water hydrologist. Neither is really Cramer or
Voorhis. The physical analysis and the mathematical analysis if that system
has not been done to the satisfaction to some of the people who were consulted
with and we feel more time will be necessary if that is to be included in
the final impact statement. For now, you can put that in the record.
Mr. Herzweig: Dr. Garrell, what would that cost?
Dr. Garrell: Time mostly, and it would cost two or three days of a qualified
consultant. It would depend on the fees. If someone like Barbara Royce,
at Brookhaven, did it, she probably gets about $400.00 a day. If you took
someone iike Jay Lehrd the head of the American Waterworks Association,
well there are three people that I can think of, Barbara Royce, Jay Lehrd,
George Pintrick at Princeton. These people are good at groundwater modeling.
You can answer the questions once and for all what those olooms look like~
given the hy~fc gra~zent iven th=
~ - g - characteristics of the soil and what
that nutrient ploom is going to Look like from that ring of cesspools. I
figure a few days would do it because the computer programs are already
there. Lehr would doit for-abo~5uu.00=a~ 0£ 1,000. Barbara Royce would
do it for probably half that plus any travel expense.
Mr. Herzweig: Would any one of them do it for free?
Dr. Garrell: Probably not, no one works for free any more? Do they?
The Town, I presume, could get some imput from them in the F.E.I.S.
Mr. Herzweig: Would you want us to pay for this?
Trustee Bredemeyer: I think the final Impact statement would be a decision
to be made right here aK part of the work session. If the Trustees feel
that this is important enough to put in, if they feel that it has not been
addressed adequately? Maybe this is something that we should be looking
at letting the applicant put the package together. If they want to put
it together now. If we have a problem with it, if we feel that we want
to mitigate it, we will say go back to the nutrient removal or some other
kind of sanitary system, and all of the restrictive covenants they offered.
Page 11. - March 3, 1987
Maybe this is wasting public money and private money to go ahead on the
search on this?
Dr. Garrell: You can't suspend the laws of physics. You can't suspend
the laws of hydraulics. You can not suspend the laws of nutrient chemistry.
You can answer the question of w~ather that system is nitrogen limited
or phosphorus limited by doing ~ome Jampling in the pond. Just like you
can answer the question of what the cesspool plooms are going to look like
by doing some computer modeling. It has been done. What I'm telling you ....
Town Attorney Tasker: Does the Suffolk County Dept. of Health Services
do this?
Trustee Bredemeyer: I honestly don~t know?
Dr. Garrell: No.
Town Attorney Tasker: If it is so dam important.
Dr. Garrell: Bob, it is hinted at in the 208 study.
Town Attorney Tasker: There are thousands and thousands of permits being
issued. That is sophisticated study.
Dr. Garrell: This is not sophisticated at all Bob. It is absolutely critical.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I'm sure it is all known. It is a question that this
site is so peculiar, it is a small surface water pond that may have a character
that is more related to freshwater bodies. It is going to be directly impacted.
I do swimming pools and bathing beaches in the Health Dept. I have had a
lot of experience there, I think I know for a fact, if major thrust is protecting
public health and maybe not protecting the health of a pond. We have a
wetlands ordinance here, ~here we-af~-s~p~ose to be looking at the health
of the wetlands and their environs. I think that that is where the difference
is occuring between the agencies on this sort of thing.
Mr. Herzweig: Mr. Bredemeyer, the only thing that I would say in response
to Dr. Garrell's observations is no. 1, the Laws of Physics or what ever
other laws of science you mentioned were still in existence in Jan. of 1986.
In Jan. of 1986 you spoke very eloquently about how flawed that document
was. I don't recall you saying anything like the things that you said tonight?
My main objection is, the things that you are saying tonight, my laymen's
experience is the first time I have heard it. Bill has spoken about the
rule of reason, that is from the New York Court of Appeals. You can go
on and on forever. You can have two Professors in the same room and have
three opinions. I'm telling you now, it is never going to end. You can
listen to Dr. Garrell and Mrs. Dove, it is never going to end.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Dr. Garrell was concerned with the nutrient loading.
I think that everyone was surprised that a study was going on so well, everyone
was cooperating so well, there was one thing, get us information on the
nutrient status of the~pondJ Tha~waS one thing Dr. Garrell was concerned
with.
Page 12. - March 3, 1987
Mr. Herzweig: I think that is what is coming from the Health Dept.?
Mr. Moore: No not the nutrient loading.
Trustee Bredeme yer: If you donTt get the nutrient loading get Us the ground
water flow.
William Moore: That is what were getting you the groundwater flow. And it
is being substantiated.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We don't have to know what is in it if it isn't going
there?
Mrs. Moore: That's on the way.
Dr. Garrell: The problem that I pointed out in the beginning when I first
looked at the D.E.I.S. they kept insisting that when you have a flow gradient
[like that showed] that the only place that you have to look for a spot
that travels through that syste~ is directly down stream of it. I insisted
at that time that if they looked at trees and cherry and if he looked at
books that included groundwater problems that you notice that even though
the gradient is pointed in that direction you still look for flow that is
perpendicular to. the gradient. In other words, the nutrient ploom spreads
out like that. Those nutrient plooms spread out in a more pointed direction
if the gradient is sharp. If the gradient is not sharp, if the gradient
is less, what happens there is more of a circular spread. There is always
a transverse direction to look at. We know that out here with the problem
of temik. If you inject the temik in the middle of a potato lot, and the
hydraulic gradient goes one way. ~Ou don't look merely north or south in
the direction of the gradient, you have to look at how the guys are getting
affected to the side. This is what I said. This was not ever answered in
the response to the comments. The problem is very predictabl~ if you know
where your cesspools are. 'If you know what the hyd~a~l~-~adient looks
look like that are injected intoithat pond. That should be done to do a
proper final impact statement. I said that from the start.
Trustee Bredemeyer: What if we try to set up a deadline to get this ready
to vote on it at the end of May.
William Moore: I'm putting the lawyers hat back on. Last week I thought
we ~xce~c$~ej our patience by trying to get information to you. The offer
was Gone to assist you, as you pointed out, this document is your baby.
We know how the system works. We had information from Professor Black.
If you wish to disregard it, that's fine, but have competent evidence
to disregard it. We said that we would get you infor~a~i~'-0~groundwater.
That has been promised to us. That letter will be available tomorrow, if
not by week's end. To-answer the very specific question that you had last
week about this piece of property and about the methodology that was used
there. Mr. Voorhis talked to me about it this afternoon, and he assured me
that the methodology was accurate was substantiated by the hydraulics at
the County who in fact, read the entire impact statement over the weekend.
I am not going to preempt his comments because I don't know to what extent
he will div~ into them. The cooperation has been from our end. I think that
the information is here. I have reached my wits end, my patience's end,
Board of Trustees - March 3, 1987 page 13.
my legal end. We have done everything we can, we have done everything we
are going to do.
Trustee Bredemeyer: You are saying that the Final Impact Statement is our baby.
We are at a point now, that we will vote out a resolution stating the fact that
we have expert testimony from people involved and in birding that May is critical.
We want May.
William Moore: Where was last May{ Every time we sit down more questions arise.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We want May.
Trustee Goubeaud: The document was incomplete. The study was not complete.
William Moore: The document was done, was being reviewed, and was accepted.
Trustee Bredemeyer: The response comments did not come in until November.
William Moore: Good point, the response comments are also the obligation of
the Board. I'm not knocking you for saying what happened in January. He took
the summer and did his responses. You had a chance to respond. We are going
in circles here.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I think the Board is ready to set a date certain that we will
vote out, in other words you have to have a 10 day comment, or a 10 day publishing.
William Moore: From the announcement of the final impact statement you must
wait a minimin of 10 days before you can make your findings. You have a form
notice that has to go out to other agencies telling them that you completed your
final impact statement. You must wait ten days.
Trustee Bredemeyer: How can we finish a final impact statement when we feel that
we need Mgy_to do it. You~have essentially said, Were done, w~re finished, we have
done our thing." We are saying now we have a very creditable person saying that
she knows the site. She is saying that May is critical. We are not saying
June, July, August, or September. We are saying May based on what creditable
information that was given to us by an expert witness. We are willing to set
it up that we vote it at our May regular meeting. We will publish it ten days
before, We have to go out if we are not happy with the County or who ever.
We call in our own expert witnesses. We have the burden of putting in test
wells or shooting elevations. The only thing that you, Mr. Cramer, Mr. Voorhis
will have to do is put it together, a table.of contents, we will send you our
report if we have something additional.
Mrs. Moore: The packet though, we will have the response on the water analysis
we are going to. have it to you by the end of the week. This means that the whole
packet will be ready for you, for the final for April's meeting. I have asked
Mr. Cramer if it would be possible to have it for April. He said yes. It is
a very formalistic process. So what you are asking is, two or three months before
you are willing to put the process together. We!re saying that it is ready to go.
Trustee Krupski: We asked for more information. They said yes. Then they will give
us the same informatio~ '~-~
Page 14 - March 3, 1987
Mrs. Moore: No,
William Moore: You have the benefit of a two page letter tonight. You will
have the benefit a letter from the Health Dept. by week§ end.
Trustee Krupski: Substantiating your methodology.
William Moore: Which is the question that was raised by Mr. Bredemeyer last
week. I really lost my patience. This is it gang! I ask you to seek legal
opinion as to whether or not you complied with the process?
Trustee Krupski: That is why our Attorney is here?
William Moore: That's good, I hope that you will continue to seek his wise council.
You are asking to reopen and add up ....... We tried to pin it down.
Trustee Bredemeyer: In this area, we can not fight with the applicant. If the
Board, or someone wants to go with a resolution after consulting with Mr. Tasker,
that we want additional time? We can look at the S.E.Q.R. Handbook and the S.E.Q.R.
Law?
Town ATtorney Tasker: With all due respect to the Board. I looked at the file.
The file goa~ back to 1~85. You people have had this thing for more than a
year and one-half. Now you are talking about another three months. Consider
the applicant. I don't care what kind of a case they have? Good or bad, you
can't dangle them on a string. I don't think that you will find anything in
S.E.Q.R. that will give you a year and one-half to fiddle around. Every time
you meet you come up with something different. This is what you are doing tonight.
You had two people here tonight coming up with two different things.
Trustee Bredemeyer: No, that was a continuation of discussion.
Town Attorney Tasker: A continuation, you just took two witnesses here tonight
giving new-information-or-testimony. Your-hearings were closed.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We afforded the applicant to come in to explain to our
satisfaction information on the hydrology and wildlife survey. We are being
realistic.
Town Attorney Tasker: Now you talked about doing a bird study and going into
next May and next September?
Trustee Bredemeyer: This was discussed at the last meeting. Didn't we send you
a notice of the meeting?
Town Attorney Tasker: The application started in Sept. of 1985. That will be
1988 that will be three years.
Trustee Bredemeyer: We have asked you to come to how many meetings? Did you
show up?
Town Attorney Tasker: I happened to be sick, John. But, for God sake you can't
drag this on. You have to make a decision.
Page 15, - Marc~ 3, 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: We can take what they have given us. We can deal with
it. We have information that they feel is sufficient. We will have to deal
with it. We will be under the gun. I guess we will have to vote on it at the
next meeting. A year and a half, Bob, a year was eaten up by their own analyst
who had it sitting on his desk. He had it sitting on his desk for a year.
Town Attorney Tasker: Tonight you are talking about having a study made for
these gradients, or what ever it is?
Trustee Goubeaud: .These items have all been questionable.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Under S.E.Q.R. the Board is entitled .....
Town Attorney Tasker: Have you ever done this before? Have you ever experienced
this before? Have you sought the Board of Health's council on this?
Clerk: Yes, we have asked for a copy of their file.
Trustee Krupski: It's our job. Not to rubber stamp it.
Town Attorney Tasker: What did they say?
Clerk: We are awaiting their response.
Town Attorney Tasker: It seems to me you are going out on a tangent by yourselves
seeking information that is basically the province of another Board?
Trustee Smith: You said a year and one-half, this is dated October 16, 1986.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Those are response comments.
Town Attorney Tasker: The o~$zina! hg~~ back t~o~_198~ ......
Trustee Smith: I agree.
William Moore: Your S.E%-Q.~R.-p~hearing was he±d on 0an. i9B~6. That is
an important time frame.Now, I agree, the applicant took the burden of preparing
the response to comments. Under S.E.Q.R. they are the Board's responsibility.
Trustee Bredemeyer: See, we don't have the benefit of the letter from the Health
Dept., which would have been nice to have.
Wiliam Moore: I was dying. Up until 4:00 P.M. this afternoon we were trying to
get it. Believe me, we more than you wanted that. That would have c%eared up
one more dangling end.
Mrs. Moore: The letter you are getting is a second opinion. Mr. Black's
commentary in 'the letter is a second opinion to your questions. Now you have
everything that you should need.
William Moore: When we left last week, had we come in the spirit of cooperation
with this information, and I really wished that we would have had that letter today,
Page 16. - March 3, 1987
that we would have resolved those questions. So that we wouldn't be talking
about bird studies into May and June. That his letter of opinion, I thought
would have been accepted by the Board. I continue to believe his letter is
a respected opinion as an expert. That the Board would have acknowledged it
as such.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Okay, I think that we have .... Bob,
Town Attorney Tasker: I don't know, I just have set in on two of these meetings.
It seems to me that everytime you meet, you bring up something else that seems
to be rather new at the tale end of the proceeding. I must say, in all of the
time the Town Board was administering this law in doing their town business under
S.E.Q.R. they never came anywhere near this time, except in Costello. This was
a rather big thing that envolved legislation. It just seems that the S.E.Q.R.
process was never designed to be carried on for two years. But still you are
talking about having another bird study. You are talking about hiring another
scientist to do the water study. Two and one-half years after you have the
application? What will come after that?
Trustee Bredemeyer: When we got the application, then we asked for an impact
statement. We were in a position that we weren't pleased with the response
comments. Maybe it was the biggest mistake that this Board ever made asking
the Town Planner to review the information when he did not have a bases in
hydrology? We are concerned with having this pond turn into a cesspool. It can
happen. Your basic feeling would appear that this has gone beyond time.
Town Attorney Tasker: You are just dragging. I get the impression that you
are getting more stumbleing blocks.
Trustee Bredemeyer: These were issues that were distilled out of the Public Hearing
under the Wetland Ordinance. In the future we will have one hearing.
William Moore: That was an area~that I was frantic about. That was a new chance
to ~ e~.__a can o~f~w~__ms.~t~_In this .~d~,~s~ris~i_~c~£_on~__~ ~y~.er~la~ i~a~¥er~=~_S_~
way. When you talk about the Town Board, their S.E.Q.R. Hearing is an Economic,
Environmental and Social concern.{ Their public hearing then is for the public to
commen~ on the merits of the applica~ion. There is a difference. In this case
I reiterate to you a suggestion that you align your hearings. You have them one
in the same.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I suspect that we will in the future. This was a first for
this Board. I think that we approached it, the response comments Were offered to
wrap it up as part of the Draft then have the total package. Then if there were
questions, they would be laid to rest in the final impact statement. That is where
we find ourselves now.
Trustee Krupski: I don't think that this is the longest the Board has deliberated
on an application.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Silberman. That was two, two and one-half years.
William Moore: What was that an application for?
Trustee Bredemeyer: That was for dredging a pond. A very small, very similar to the
one you want to build on.
Page 17. - March 3, 1987
William Moore: I hate to sit and stamp and shout and count the days. I like
the way it is to live out here. I have an appreciation for that.
Trustee Smith: We did set a date when we would vote on this thing, in May.
I Would think that that is a long way past where we have been so far.
Mrs. Moore: We are in March. We have to go to the Zoning Board. Your two months
will result in the Zoning Board not being able to get us on the agenda for possibly
another two months. Their schedule gets booked up. Your two months, get's to be
four months?
Trustee Bredemeyer: Legally can this Board go ahead, take the Final Impact
Statement from them and if there was an area for an approval as opposed to
not approving, that the Board could finish the survey. I have a problem with
the survey. I have a hang up with that. If someone from the Health Dept. i~l
going to certify that there is no problem _ ~hat is wonderful.
Town Attorney: I just looked at the whole process, I may be an extreme minority
position, but you are talking about a few birds as either making or breaking this
whole process. If two or three birds are going to be displaced? Nothing was
said about whether they were going to go across the street and nest over there?
i don't think that S.E.Q.R. was intended to get into this question of protecting
the environment where you are talking about a blade of grass and a bird.
Trustee Bredemeyer: A bird is like a snaldarter. It is an endangered species.
Town Attorney Tasker: I don't think that was the intent to look at it that hard.
Then if you do everything will come to a halt.
Mr. Moore: You have to work within the rule of reason. You have Professor Black's
letter. We could establish his expertise in the field.
Town Attorney Tasker: His summary, i think he has taken a great view. Mrs. Dove
is looking f~r %he stray-b~rds, Tha~-i~ the way I look at it. If you did every
single application this way, no one would ever get a permit to do anything. You
would be sitting at these hearings 365 day a year. You would never get anything done.
Trustee Krupski:You!~,saying that we should not scrutinize? ,_
Town Attorney Tasker: No, they never intended that you go that deep into it.
This man has a half-acre of property upon which half of it is wooded. He is
going to take half of it out for his house. How many trees are you talking about.?
Trustee Bredemeyer: We are concerned that the site is not used by species that are
afforded special protection by the law. We had an impact statement that was
expanded on very well by the Professor. Itmade you wonder what else is missing.
Mrs. Moore: It was the consultant who boxed you in a corner.
Mr. Moore: S.E.Q.R. is in the rule of reason, You have to pose whether this is
going to have a significant environmental impact. Significant is an important word.
Trusteee Bredemeyer: When the pond turns, the Trustees can close it off and let it
cook like in other towns.
Page 18 - March 3, 1987
Town Attorney: If that did happen, am I correct to think that there are
houses on the other side?
Trustee Bredemeyer: Yes, and that can happen.
Town Attorney: I think the planner said in his review that he would recommend
against the remaining lots on the west side being developed. He kind of
recommended approval of this one.
Trustee Bredemeyer: The same arguments raised by this applicant can be raised
by other applicants.
Mr. Moore: One of the questions raised by Mr. Emilita was the potential
cumulative impacts. One of the neat things of this project was the that yon
acquired it to be site specific. This piece of property has it's unique
characteristics. This piece in itself can justify a permit when everything
around it can not. Any judge can find a crack between the two, there is where
the new law comes in.
Trustee Bredemeyer: If April...
William Moore: We were asked to come up with two additional items, the wildlife
inventory, which weprompted with Professor Black's letters. The second one was
a question of the methodology used to determine the groundwater gradients and
the movement of groundwater, the question of the te~ting techniques that were
used~We p~omis~d,t~ go ~
~o ~ the Health Dept. and get a letter that the technique
that was used is an accepted methodology to determine what was done. That letter
is comi~.
Trustee Bredemeeyr: Those were questions that we had at the last meeting, and
it goes back to questions resulting from the Public Hearing on the ~etland
Application. The response comments did not address what we wanted after the
original S.E.QoR. Hearing on the Draft. That was the whole thing. The thrust
was to wrap up that there will nst be an impact on the pond. What if the letter
from the Health Dept. doesn't come out.
Mr. Moore: We will get that letter to you.
Trustee Bredemeyer: %f ~h~Boa~t thi~k Li~at iL i~ Lho~o~gh =~ough
then we have to finish the study, we have to ~rite the final. It would be nice
to have you do it.
Mr. Moore: I haven't offered to write anything.
Mrs. Moore: Are you talking April 1st or April 30th. You could get it on March.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Why don't we set up a special meeting for the beginning of
April? -
1
Mrs. Moore: You will h~ve to look at all the information that you have before you.
Mr. Moore: We ask that you expedite and move with all speed.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I'll tell you I want to vote this thing out. We have to
take the bull by the horns.
Page 19 - March 3, 1987
Trustee Bredemeyer: Do you want to do the formal resolution on this to
vote on the application in April?
Trustee Smith: I move that we vote on the Moore/Cramer application at the April
regularly scheduled meeting, notice having been published in the newspaper to
meet the S.E.Q.R. _requirements at least ten days before.
Trustee Bredemeyer: I'll second that.
Clerk: Vote of Board: Ayes: All - This resolution was declared duly adopted.
Special meeting closed at 9:05 P.M.
ANNA PARLAMI S ~
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN THAT PUBLIC HEARINGS WILL BE HELD BY THE TOWN
TRUSTEES OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD AT THE SOUTHOLD TOWN HALL, MAIN ROAD, SOUTHOLD,
NEW YORK ON THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1987 ON THE FOLLOWING APPLICATION FOR A
PERMIT UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE WETLAND ORDINANCE OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD.
7:38 P.M. - IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF ANNA PARLAMIS TO REBUILD
SECTIONAL BULKHEAD DESTROYED BY STORMS WITH A CONCRETE BULKHEAD 25' LONG, 18"
WIDE. PROPERTY IS LOCATED AT 633A BAYSHORE ROAD, GREENPORT.
Trustee Smith: I believe that this project has been completed. Conservation
Advisory Council has recommended ...
Secretary: Disapproval.
Trustee Larsen: I have a question, I think Jeff has raised it in the past,
on approving these applications that have been illegally constructed?
Trustee Bredemeyer: Weren't we going to ask the applicant to submit proof of
the previous structure there?
Secretary: Yes. Nothing has been submitted as yet.
Trustee Larmen: I was the one who found your structure. I was driving down
your road one afternoon and I saw the fill in your front yard. I knew that
you weren't filling your front yard. So I walked down to the R.O.W. and 1.ooked
and saw that you had the planks in to put the concrete bulkhead in. By the time
I notified the Trustee Office and Bay Constable McCarthy looked at it the structure
was already complete.
Mr. Parlamis: So you have seen the structure?
Trustee Larsen: So I saw it before it was constructed. I saw the beach. You
had a small beach behind it. You have bulkhead to the south. I guess you
were concerned with scouring out of your property from the bulkhead from the
south. So you put this in?
M~. Parlamis: There were two beautiful trees there that were
undermined by erosion. I had to cut a few roots. The water was actuJlly going
in to my neighbors basement. No matter what I did, there was no way that I
could prevent erosion. I had asked Mr. Costello and Mr. Frohnhoefer to see if
they could build something there? They told me that it would be impossible
because they could not bring in equipment there because of the low water.
What I did, actually, I consider it a retaining wall not a bulkhead. It is
not going along the beach. I didn't want to destroy the beach, only protect the trees.
Trustee Larsen: It is at an angle.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Did you have a structure there previously?
Mr. Parlamis: There was a structure there, but it had been washed away in
the storm "Gloria". Now the question of why I did it without a permit?
I know that ignorance is no excuse. I thought that because that it was not
built on the water but on the land I did not realize that the town required a
permit.
Page 2.
I find out now that the Town has the 75' jurisdiction.
Trustee Larsen: It is below the high water mark. High water mark goes up,
but at the start of it high water hits the structure.
Mr. Parlamis: Starting in high water it is a heck of a distance to the
adjacent neighbor. It goes up into the land. Not down on the beach. It is
to hold the soil. I don't know that that is an excuse? I did not know that
I needed a permit.
Trustee Goubeaud: Who did the work?
Mr. Parlamis: Well, I happen to be a physician. I had two patients of mind
who came and did the work in a half a day.
Trustee Smith: Let me ask you this question. If you did nothing what do you
think would of happended to you property?
Mr. Parlamis: It would have eroded. I tried twice to have some local people
come in and give me some fill to last just about a month. It didn't last.
You have to realize that where I am located I face the north wind. When the
north wind comes in forget it, I have found my dock up on my porch.
Trustee Smith: We requested that you file for a permit. That is exactly
what you dfd~what we requested. Does anyone else have any comments on this
application? No comments. Then I will close this public hearing.
SALT LAKE ASSOCIATION - PUBLIC HEARING
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN TtlAT PUBLIC HEARINGS WILL BE HELD BY THE TOWN
TRUSTEES OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD, AT THE SOUTHOLD TOWN HALL, MAIN ROAD,
SOUTHOLD, NEW YORK, ON THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1987 ON THE APPLICATION
OF sALT LAKE ASSOCIATION, INC. submitted by EN-CONSULTANTS, INC. FOR
A PERMIT UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE WETLAND ORDINANCE OF THE TOWN OF
SOUTHOLD.
7:34 P.M. - IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF EN-CONSULTANTS, INC. ON
BEHALF OF SALT LAKE ASSOCIATION, INC. TO MAINTENANCE DREDGE AN AREA
APPROXIMATELY 80' x 120' TO DEPTH OF 6' BELOW MLW. APPROXIMATELY
1000 CU. YDS. OF SPOIL WILL BE REMOVED A~ID PLACED IN INTERTIDAL AREA AND
ABOVE THE BEACHES TO THE EAST. PROPERTY IS LOCATED ON OLD SALT ROAD,
MATTITUCK.
Trustee Smith: We were down there with Chuck Hamilton th~ other day, and
it was his recommendation that the spoil be placed to the east above MHW.
Trustee Krupski: I thought that spoil was suppose to be placed in the Park
District Beach?
Trustee Smith: No that was the County.
Trustee Bredemeyer: No that was a different project.
Trustee Krupski: I think that we determined that the spoil was to be'placed
on the Park District Property. I thought that they had a problem with the
neighbors to the East?
Trustee Smith: If, yeah.
Trustee Larsen:' They have a spoil area 102 ft. wide.
Trustee Krupski: The county didn't want them to use that spoil area?
Trustee Larsen: No, it was the D.E.C. they did not approve of that site.
Trustee Smith: I thought the Park District and the New Suffolk Boat ramp...
Trustee Krupski: I thought it was for both of them, the James Creek dredging
and the Salt Lake Association. I'm pretty~sure.
Clerk: Al, thats what you told me that day, when you came back. That it was
Mattituck Park District beach above MHW.
Dr. Samuels: That is confusing I know because you are in the wrong spoil area.
When we did it some seven or eight years ago we used the Mattituck Park Dist.
land. We trucked it there. We did the job with a crane. We had a lot of reaction
from the Highway Dept. they were tickled pink with the project.
Trustee Smith: Right.
Dr. Samuels: Now the proposition is to do it hydraulically the way the County
does James Creek almost annually. You use the same spoil area that the County
uses, where Mr. Allan used to live on the end of Camp Mineola Road, the last
property on the west end of Camp Mineola Road on the beach above the HW-M.
Trustee Smith: That is a public beach isn't it?
Page 2.
Dr. Samuels: That is the spoil area we want to use this time. It may be
Trustee land. It is not really public land. %t is not a listed public beach
as far as I know.
Trustee Krupski: Someone from the State claimed that it was private property.
Trustee Larsen: Isn't it a DPW approved spoil site?
Dr. Samuels: Yes.
T~ustee Larsen: Yes.
Dr. Samuels: They use it every year.
Clerk: How which is it?~r
Trustee Larsen: To the east side, to the down drift side.
Trustee Smith: I have no problem with that.
Trustee Krupski: Do we have permission to put it there?
Trustee Larsen: We have a letter from Dennis Cole, NYS DEC saying that
the Dept. had objections utilizing a DPW approved site for private projects.
In the mean--time Mr. Smith says that they met with Mr. Hamilton and he was
rectified, and they don't have a problem with the spoil to the east.
Trustee Smith: I think that I'm confused with my creeks up there?
Dr. Samuels: James Creek is where Strongs Marina is.
Trustee Smith: I have it Confused with Deep Hole Creek. That was the one that
they recommended that it be to the east above FCHW.
Clerk: This one was the Mattituck Park District beach.
Trustee Smith: This was where they were talking about bringing it around the
corner.
Trustee Krupski: Can they do that?
Trustee Larsen: No they have to do it with a crane.
Dr. Samuels: A very expensive job and a great big dredge.
Trustee Larsen: It is a good quality material. Where in the area is there a location
that needs renourishment?
Dr. Samuels: ~Along that area there it is heavily bulkheaded. It there was enough
material you could nourish along the bulkheads that would be fine.
Trustee Bredemeyer: How many cu. yds. is this?
Ail: 1000 cu. yds.
Page 3.
Trustee Smith: Weren't they talking about someplace where they could make
a berm? Pumping the spoil ap?
Trustee Krupski: That was Deep Hole Creek. Someone had an objection to
putting it on the East side of the creek.
Trustee Bredemeyer: Is the main hindrance of this project the D.E.C. approval
of the spoil site?
Dr. Samuels: No. D.E.C. wants the spoil placed above the HWM. which is acceptable.
The problem is keeping it there. Subsequent tides have a way of moving stuff from
above the high water mark, as we all know. Originally that is the idea to keep
it above the high water mark. Previously, the County procedure has been to place
it between mean low and mean high water.
Trustee Smith: What is you approved spoil site right now?
Dr. Samuels: The County spoil site to the east, what I think is old Mr. Allens
property, he has since died.
Trustee Smith: That is an approved spoil site.
Dr. Samuels: That is the one the County uses annaully. We will have to get an
easement from the owners of that property. Just as the County has done, it
is not unlikely that they will give it because obviously they benefit from it.
Trustee Smith: I don't have a problem with it. It is a small project.
Trustee Krupski: If the owners don't have a problem with it, I don't have
a problem with it.
Trustee Smith: What are the C.A.C. comments on this?
Clerk: They recommended approval. Which is this now, the County site to the
east?
Trustee Smith: Yes, that is the approved site that he has right now.
Are there any other comments for or against this application? No comment.
I will then close this public hearing.