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HomeMy WebLinkAboutTR-03/27/1996Albert J. Krupski. President John Holzapfel, Vice President Jim King Martin H. Garrell Peter Wenczel BOARD OF TOWN TRUSTEES TOWN OF SOUTHOLD Town Hall 53095 Main Road P.O. Box 1179 Southold, New York t 1971 Telephone (516) 765-1892 Fax (516) 765-1823 PRESENT WERE: Absent: MINUTES M3kRCH 27, 1996 Albert J. Krupski, Jr. President- Peter Wenczel, Member Martin H. Garrell, Member James King, Member Jill Doherty, Clerk John Holzapfel, Vice-president CALL MEETING TO ORDER PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE NEXT FIELD INSPECTION: Wed. April 17, 1996 NEXT TRUSTEE BOARD MEETING: Wed., April 24, 1996 7P.M. WORKSESSION: 6:00 p.m. APPROVE MINUTES: Approve minutes of February 28, 1996 Regular Meeting I. MONTHLY REPORT: The Trustees monthly report for February 1996: A check for $5,997.72 was forwarded to the Supervisor's Office for the General Fund. II. PUBLIC NOTICES: Public Notices are posted on the Town Clerk's Bulletin Board for review. Iti. AMENDMENTS/WAIVERS/CHANGES: !. PROPER-T PERMIT SERVICES on b~nalf of DAVID CICHANOWICZ red, est an amendment to permit ~4483 to move the entire strUCture in a northerly direction and about 24 feet, shorten the fixed walkway from 35' to 34', shorten the ramp from 16' to 12' add a second 6' X 20' float and a third two-pile dolphin. Located 1425 Arshamomaque Ave., Southold. SCTM ~66-3-i6. A motion was made by TRUSTEE GARRELL seconded by TRUSTEE W~CZEL to table the application to inspect for the second float. AYES: Wenczel, Garrell, King. Abstain: Krupski. Later in meeting board voted by resolution of TRUSTEE WENCZEL and seconded by TRUSTEE GARRELL to grant an amendment to move the entire structure in a northerly direction and about 24', shorten the fixed Board of Trustees 2 March 27, 1996 walkway from 35' X 34', shorten the ramp from 16' to 12' and DENY the additional float. AYES: Wenczei, Garrelt, King. ABSTAIN: Krupski. 2. EN-CONSULTANTS on behalf of CHRISTIAN BUP3%E request an amendment to permit 94543 to their originaI request of a 28' catwalk to reach adequate depths. Located 50 Goose Creek Lane, Southold. SCTM ~71-i-41. After discussion a motion was made by TRUSTEE WENCZEL and seconded by TRUSTEE KING to DENY without prejudice the extra 3' as the board feels the applicant has enough depth. ALL AYES. 3. DONALD ALFANO request an amendment to permit $4384 to add a 3' X 26' floating dock secured by 2 poles and move the ramp as per drawing. Located Corey Creek Lane, Southold. SCTM $78-4-13. A motion was made by TRUSTEE WENCZEL and TRUSTM~ KING to approve amendment to move one of the poles that he has to be approximately 40' from the end of the existing catwalk, place a 3' X 14' ramp and a 3' X 23' float between the catwalk and the pole. And to move the other pole and use as inside pole for float conditions on new drawings. Also "L" of existing catwalk will be removed., making catwalk straight out. ALL AYES. 4. JAMES MC MAHON on behalf of the TOWN OF SOUTHOLD request a Waiver to construct a 4' X 24' catwalk, 4' X 12' ramp and a 6' X 24' floating dock at the boat ramp at Jackson Street~ New Suffolk. it was discussed, as dock is public facility 4' wide is satisfactory. A motion was made by TRUSTEE WENCZEL and seconded TRUSTEE GARRELL to approve waiver. ALL AYES. 5. SUSAN TASKER re_cuest a one year extension on Permit $4167 to expire May 26, 1998 for a single family dwe!lin~, deck, retaining walls, sanitary system, bluestone d~iveway, undergraund utilities and approx. 200 c.y. clean sand. Located CR. 48, Greenport. SCTM ~44-2-11. A motion was made by TRUSTEE G~ and seconded by TRUSTEEWENCZEL to approve extension. ALL AYES. 6. GEORGE MAUL request a a waiver to raise house and construct foundation. As soon as foundation is cured dirt will be pushed back. Dirt is retained by a row of staked hayba!es. Located 3100 Skunk Lane, Cutchogue. SCTM ~97-8-13. A motion was made by TRUSTEE KRUPSKI and seconded by TRUSTEE Wq~CZEL to approve the waiver. ALL AYES.. IV. PUBLIC HEARINGS: THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING IN THE ~%TTER OF THE FOLLOWING APPLICATIONS FOR PERMITS UNDER THE WETLANDS ORDINANCE OF THE TOWN OF SOUTHOLD. _~LAVE AN AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION FROM THE SUFFOLK TIMES. PERTINENT CORRESPONDENCE MAY BE READ PRIOR TO ASKING FOR COM~E, NTS FROM THE PUBLIC. PLEASE KEEP YOUR COM~..~v~S ORGANI~n AND BRIEF: FIVE (5) MINUTES OR LESS~ IF POSSLBLE 7:15 P.M. In the matter of EN-CONSULTANTS on behalf of JOSEPH GRILLO, SR. request a Wetland Permit to replace (within 18") 412 1.f. Board of Trustees 3 March 27, 1996 of existing timber bulkhead and add two !0' returns. New bulkhead will be t' higher than existing. Approx. 275 c.y. of clean sand backfill will be trucked in from an upland source. Relocate a seasonal 12' X 20' wood platform which overhangs waterway by 6'; 3' X 14' hinged ramp; 6' X 18' float secured by two pilings to a point 15' in from prope=ty line. Located Mesrobian Drive, Laurel. SCTM ~145-4-!2.1. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is there anyone here who is against the application? Is there anyone here who wants to speak on behalf of this application? I have one question (for En-Con.). The ta~udscaping around the front, is what we consider appropriate. Does he have any plans to change. that? There is no turf now. We would like to keep it that way. DIANE LE VERRIER: I don't think that he plans to do a lawn. He would like to have a 10' buffer. I don't think he has any plans to landscape. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Than he wouldn't mind 20' TRUSTEE WENCZEL: The way it is is fine. The whole thing is a bu~er. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Our concern is nutrients going down into the creek. Basically he doesn't have anything now. If we say he has to have a 20' buffer, then he wouldn't have to do anything. Ail's it is is sand and some American Beach g~ass. DIANE L~;ERRIER: So you are saying leave the fill and leave it the way it is. Un-landscaped. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Right. He is limited to what is going to grow there. Any other c~uent. ALLAN CONNELL: The CAC strongly recommends to maintain that 20' buffer, but also to pa/It beach grass behind ~he bulkhead after the fill is placed. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Do I have a motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE GARR~r.T.: So moved. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KING: Motion to approve with suggestions to ps,ut beach grass in the 20' buffer. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. 7:16 P.M. - In the matter of LATHAuM SAND AND GRAVEL on behalf of FR~-K PIROLO request a Wetland Permit to constr~ct a 6' X 20' floating dock with a 3' X 14' ramp connected to existing bulkhead, installation of 2 CCA piles to secure Eloat. Also, approx, i20' existing bulkhead and cement block retaining wal~ behind bulkhead. Walls where built approx. 1930. Located Lake Drive, Reydon Shores, Southotd. SCTM ~80-3-!9.1. TRUSTEE F~RUPSKI: Is there anyone here who wants to soeak against this application? Is there anyone here who wants to speak-for this application? TERRY LATHAM: I am here if there is any questions? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I had one question on the owner of ~he land. Did we clear that up Jill? JILL: Yes. Mr. Latb~m got verbal approval and will follow it up with a letter from Reydon Shores Association. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I also saw that there was a drain there, it appears to be clogged up, and a pipe that goes through the bulkhead. Can we ask them to remove that and make sure that the drain in the lawn is not draining into the basin. I really don't think it is functional. I don't want to see it fixed up and replace. Board of Trustees 4 March 27, 1996 I~LR. LATHAM: It want be done until the bulkhead is done. The bulkhead probably won't be replaced until the fall. He wants to get the float in place. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: We don't have any problems with the float and dock. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: Any other comments? A motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: So moved. TRUSTRR Gia2~.Pd~T.T,: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I will make a motion to approve the application as applied for with the stipulation that the apulicant submit a letter as soon as possible granting permission from Reydon Shores Property Owners Association to place the sti~icture on their property and that the drain in the lawn and pipe in the bulkhead not be reulaced and be removed witk the reconstruction of the bulkhead. TRUSTEE GARRRT.L: Second. ALL AYES. 7:17 P.M. - In the matter of SUFFOLK ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTING, INC. on behalf of ROBERT AND BARBARA HOLLEY request a Wetland Permit ~o construct a 8' X 22' addition and a 8' X i2' deck to existing dwelling as per survey dated December 6, 1995. Located Bay Shore Road at intersection with Wells Ave., Arshamomoque. SCT-~ 53-3-13. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: Is there anyone here who would like to speak in favor of or aqainst the application. CAC reco~m~ends approval and suggest applicant maintain existing ha~ bales and sediment barriers. JILL: That was Trustee Holzapfet's coa~ents also. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: Any other co~Lmients? A motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE G~LRliELL: So moved. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I will make a motion to app'rove the application with the CAC coi~ents o~ maintaining the haybale barrier~ TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AYES. 7:18 P.M. - In the matter of EN-CONSULTANTS on behalf of JO~N BRAIDER request a Wetland permit to construct 245+/- 1.f. of plastic retaining wall entirely landward of ABW plus a 15' return on south side and 10' return on north side. Construct 204+/- 1.f. of stone rip-rap wall 15+/-' landward of retaining wall so~th of dock; and 6+/-' landward north of dock. Fill intervening areas with 275+/-c.y. of clean fill and plant with beach grass. Located Gull Pond Lane, Greenport. SCTM 35-3-pYo 12.5 & 12.6. TRUSTEE KRU~SKI: I make a motion to table the hearing in this matter. (Tabled upon request from Eh-Consultants on behalf o~ Mr. Braider so they can work on DEC problems.). TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AYES. 7: P.M. matter of EN-CONSULTANTS on behalf of ARMANDO & request a Wetland Permit to remove (3) existing timber groins and Construct (i) 40' timber groin. New structure is needed to prevent further loss of beach. Proposed groin will be similar in length and construction to others to east and west. Located 4510 Peconic Bay Boulevard, Laurel. SCTM 9128-4-21. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is there anyone who would like to speak against the application? TERRY SULLIVAN: My name is Terry Sullivan. I ~m the neighbor to the Grassi's. I am concerned that if the groin is built, it would negatively impact my beach. Board of Trustees 5 March 27. 1996 ALLAN CONNELL: The CAC recommends disapproval also, because ~here is no need shown. TRUSTEE KRU?SKI: Anyone else? Is there anyone who would like to speak in favor of the application? DIANE LEVERRIER: I disagree with the co~mnents from the CAC. There is substantial scouring do to the fact that the groins so much shorter on the Grassi property'. I understand that you don't approve any new groins, however, there are functional groins there now. We want to remove those three and put one in. I think it can be done without having any significant impact on anyone else's property. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Thank you. Anyone else? TOM SAMUELS: I am not involved in this project. I think you should look these things on a site specifiu basis. There are groin fields in the area. If the groins are kept low profile, they will have by pass over them. The existing groins exists. There is no legal requirements to remove them. The propert~ is being impacted by previously existing structures. I am not in favor of groins. But the groins are there. You-have to look at it on that basis. You have site specific judgements to make. They cannot be mind set judgements. Groin bad, jetty bad. We strove for years to keep al! the authority in front of the Trustees because they are a local group of local knowledge. There was drastic political moves made to keep the Wetland Ordinances in front of you, the Coastal Hazard regulations in front of you because we respected your local judgement. Regardless of political affiliation. Lets get back to looking at these things at an engineering stand point. Not mind set. That is the probit. I would be very happy to meet with the neig~ors. I understand their concerns. To jeopardize one property owner for bad decisions made in the past, doesn't make much sense. Thank you. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: How do you sugges= that this jeopardizes the property owner? TOM SAMUELS: ! haven't seen the site yet. I would like you to hold over so I can at least give some input on it. One of the problems that the Trustees have, and I have always complained to the Town Board, is that ~he¥ would not hire an engineering experts or Coastal Geology experts. The wouldn't pay the price. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: You made a statement. How is our not approving this groin going to hurt that particular property owner? TOM SAMUELS: O.K. There is scouring out, Diane can correct me if I am wrong, on property is the result from adjacent groins in a groin field. A low profile groin will do nothing. Maximum elevation, say 6' ~hove M~W and they pre-fill it, both sides. This is standard DEC permits procedures. They work excellent. They allow by pass. They don't trap...because they are not high enough. The just maintain beach elevation. Apparently, the is the quest here. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Yes, but you are not demonstrating how not putting that groin there is going to have future effect on the property, it may be stable the way it is. TOM SAMUELS: These people apparently have been convinced by somebody that they must spend the money to do something that really isn't necessary. ~hat doesn't quite fit my knowledge of people. There apparently has been some scouring on this property. The permit analyst can answer the question better then I can. Again, don't make knee jerk reactions to applications. They shou!dbe examined thoroughly. Get some input. There are several people in the Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 Town that have the knowledge and experience to give you some input. The Town should fund it... TRUSTEE GARRELL: We are not talking about not a single groin. We are talking about a groin field. I am concerned ~hout the robbing peter to pay Paul and going into an alteration which might effect down drift people. That is why I would really love to see these things with the contractor talking a look at all the surrounding groins and giving us a feel for the effect. I realize that is difficult. TERRY S~LLIVAN: The issue of scouring has been brought up. If you go down to Grassi~s property, the scouring is adjacent to a high groin. They need to negotiate to get a tow profile groin there and most of their problems will go away. That is what is driving the scouring, is the neighbor has got a high groin. If you walk dowr~ that beach, every time you see a high groin, it is a disaster'. There is no doubt about it, low groins do work much better. That is my view. TOM SAMUELS: Can I respond? There is no dOllbt of what Ter~I Sullivan just said. He is correct. There have been great errors made with high groins. Groins are only effective up to a certain elevation anyway. There are certain exceptions. Groin fietd~ should be designed for a community. I ask you to hold it over and look at it again. See if it makes any sense to build a low profile groin. ~RUSTEE K~U?SK!: The groin field works in a model situation in a lab where you would set up a groin field using two and half times the length in between each groin and the sand flow moves at a uniform rate. There is no storm situations and there is nothing irregular. Unfortunately, the bay is quite the opposite. When you take it out in the field, it is the opposite of what an ideal groin field should be like. That is assuming a straight set of beach. Mother Nature doesn't work that way and man doesn't build them that way. What should be and what is, is quite a big difference. It is not up to the Board, if the applicant would like us to the table the heading'and tr~ and prove that a low profile groin, what we would have to see is some sort of measurement on the beach as to exactly the height of that groin. We would get an idea of what exactly is being proposed. So we can look at better. It is hard to tell where the nozmal high tide is. I think that would be an option for the applicant. I will make a motion to recess the public hearing to collect more information. We would need final elevations. .ALLAN CONlqELL: The groins in that area are al! at different elevations. Mr. Samuels is right. A low profile is not going to help this situation. ?RUSTEEKRUPSKI: We don't want to have a closed mind. If the applicant can thinks that ~ey can show us something in the field, we will make a second trip out there. TR'JSTEE WENCZ~L: Second. AT.T. AYES. 7:35 P.M. - In the matter of WILLIA~ T. CONNORS request a Wetland Permit to construct a single famity, two-st°ry dWelling, a 10' X 25' deck on north side, a 5' X 25' deck on south side, sanitary system, septic system with 5 leaching pools, well as approved by Suffolk County Health Dept. and a 375 s.f. driveway, Located West Drive, Southold. SCTM ~59-5-29.3. TRUSTEE F~RUPSKI: Is there anyone here who would like to speak in favor of the application? MRS. CONNORS: I am here if you have any questions. Board of Trustees 7 March 27, i996 TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: The ZBA approved the set backs that where applied for to the Trustees. They have Health Dept., ZBA and DEC has nc jurisdiction. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Does this involves and fill? It doesn't seem to be listed in the project description. I think the description should be amended. JILL: O.K. (400 c.y.). TRUSTEE WENCZEL: O.K. My other comment is that the approval of this application will not only involve additional fill of wetlands, but will also legitimize illegal filling of wetlands that occurred in the past and will set a very dangerous trend, i know the Board has put a lot of effort and thought, into this and we have been sued ~nd so on. I deplore to give it a second thought before you vote. We will probably see more of these. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I don't doubt that as every lot becomes more and more valuable. The Board has seen this application for the past ten years. The amount of wetlands to be fill will be traded off for an equa-1 amount of wetlands to he created on the property. MRS. CONNORS: Yes, I agreed to that. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: I don't see it in the file and I just wanted to make sure that was clear. TRUSTEE GARRELL: It should be said that this ~oplication is quite a bit different then what has been discussed in the past and certainly very different from what came to the Board originally ten years ago. It represents a great deal of wrangling, a great deal of trade offs. It has been a quest for compromise and a real try to preserve what amounts to property rights. Whatever we do, has not come TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Any other co~muents? CAC recoH~ends disapproval the project is located on wetlands~ $2.. lot size is in-adequate. ~3. 67% of the lot is wetlands. ~4. it is located zna flood zone. $5. The shallow water table septic system could impact the ground water. In light of all that and in light of ten years of trials (board's. trial) I will like to e~ho what. Marty said about us trying to preserve private propert~ rights and. au the same time hold some balance in protecting the environment. We have worked very hard on this application trying to do both. This has stretched to it limits. Is there any other c~m:~ents? Do I have a motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE GARRELL: So moved. TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKt: t will make a motion to approve the application as per survey most recently revised of Decembe~ 21, t995 with the one condition that is not on there. The area up land to the west side of the house be converted to fresh water wetlands during the process of the house construction so it is all one process. Construction of wetlands should be completed no later than the ist of November 1996. A plant list should be s~l~r~tted. Chris Pickeral can be contact to help you develop this freshwater wetland. There shall be a stake8 row of haybales to be maintaineda!ways and a silt fence in place during construction. TRUSTEE KING: Second. Ayes: Kzupski, King, Garrell Ney: Wenczel. 7: P.M.- In the matter of PAT J. IAVARONE request a Wetland Permit for existing 111' bulkhead with a 10' return on west side, stairs, 4' X 100' dock, deck, 8' X 12' c~bana and to construct a 60' retaJ~ning Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 wall with 8' return on east side. Located 995 West Road, Cutchogue. SCTM ~110-7-3. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is there anyone who would like to speak against or on behalf of the applicant? CAC Comments: Approval of retaining wall provided that the applicant is find for construction of bulkhead without permafit. The CAC also suggest that Trustee require that ~he shower water be disposed of appropriately into the ground. We were disappointed to see that the shower pipe was running right into the bulkhead. We don't like to see waste water run into the bay. In this case the bulkhead was resheathe~. It was an existing str~cture. We would look at that as a maintenance type of thing. A motion to close the hearing. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: I will make a motion to approve the application to approve the bulkhead,return, stairs dock, deck and the c~hana and the retaining wall provided that the waste pipe be taken out of the cabana and the shower be removed to the house. 60 days to remove pipe~ TRUSTEE WENCZEL: second. ALT. AYES. 8:15 P.M. In the matter of ROBERT KUHNE ~ VIRGINIA HARNS request a Wetland Pezmit to construct a 3' X 68' catwalk, 3' X 12' ramp and a 6' X 16' float as per drawing received 3/4/96. Located 130 Midway Road, Southold. SC?M $90-1-8. TRUSTEE _~RUPSKi: CAC recommends approval that the elevation be 3' above MHW. Is there anyone here who wants to speak about this application. VIRGINIA HARMS: We are here, if you have any questions. TRUST~E KRUPSKi: Any other co~ent? Motion to close the hearing. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I make a motion to approve application for a wetland permit for a dock with catwalk 3' above grade of the wetlands. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. 8:25 P.M. - in the matter of RICHARD AND LORRAINE BURDEN request a Wetland Permit to dredge to a depth of 3' below MLW (approx. 50 c.y.) in front of bulkhead as per drawing dated 4/15/96. Located 2800 Ole Jule Lane, Mattituck. SCTM ~122-4-!5,16. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is there here who would like to speak against the application? Anyone here who would like to speak in favor of the application? CAC rec~m~ends approval with the stipulation that the soil be r~moved to an approved upland sits. We met with the applicant on site and he agreed to a non-turf buffer and he is going to put a s~imming pool in right there. The fill is going to be used on site. The bulkhead is going to be 2' higher. A motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: So moved. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. ~he applicant request that the fee be waived as he applied for the dredging in his original application for the pool ~nd the bulkhead and the Trustees are then ones who separated it and he has not started any of the other approved work. TRUSTEE K~UPSKI: I make a motion to approve with the stipulation that the application fees have been paid with the original application and a $40.00 inspection fee be paid and a non-turf buffer between the Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 pool and the bulkhead. And I will make a motion to approve a one, one year extension to the original permit that was issued in May of 1994. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. Trustee Wencze! pointed out that this is a man made canal and Mr. Burden is dredging on his own property. 8:30 P.M. - In the matter J.H. GEIDEMAN on behalf of N. CHA~I~S DELUCA request a Wetland Permit to construct a 4' X 265' catwalk 3.6' above grade. Located 3525 Paradise Pt. Road, Southold. SCTM 81-1-15.8 & 15.9. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is there anyone here who would like to speak in favor or against the application? We have been out there a number of times. CAC reco~m~nds disapproval of the project because i~ would allow depredation of a wild life h~hitat and infringe on a wild life corridor. ALLAN CONNELL: The CAC has a real problem with this because there is already a catwalk going all the way across that property snd there is potential for three more going across there. By the time they are done, there aren't going to be any more wetlands there. The applicant already has access to the beach. I agree it is not the best access. In the Summer time this is d~. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: We can maybe put the catwalk on the ground. Low profile a foot high. That way they would have there approved access and animals can cross it. Do I have a motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE GARRELL: So moved. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I make a motion to approve the 4' X 265' catwalk and I' above grade, if DEC requires 3.6', the elevation can be up to 3.6' TRUSTEE GARPdZLL: Second. ALL AYES. 8:40 P.M. - In the matter of MARDIK & LOUISE DONIKYAN request a Wetland Permit to construct approx. 100' bulkhead with 2 - 15' returns as per survey dated January 31, 1996. Located 54255 Rt. 48, Southold. SCTM ~52-1-4. TRUSTEE KRUPSK~: Is there anyone here who would like to speak in favor or against this application? I will make a motion to recess the public hearing as per applicants request. TRUSTRE WENCZEL: Second. ATJ, AYES. ~P.M. - In the matter of DIANE HEROT,D on beh~l~ of ~EUGH J. MURPHY request Wetland permit to raise house and replace foundation, construct addition to south side and porch and addition on west side and reconstruct house as needed as per map dated. February 6, 1996. Located Oaklawn Ave., Southold. SCTM ~70-6-8. TRUSTMR KRUPSKI: Is there anyone here who would like to speak in favor of or against the application? DIANE HEROLD: I am Diane Heroid representing Mr. Murphy. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: O.K. CAC recommends approvai with staked row of hay bales. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I looked at this and had a couple of cu~m~,ents. Gutter and leaders to drywelts, and also I was wondering shout the septic. Are there any plans to update the septic? DIANE HEROLD: There weren't at this time. Jill mentioned that. So far nobody has asked us that. I may run into some simila~ problems when I go to ZBA. If the Board is going to require a new system, I did bring a drawing of what we would propose. Two test holes were down and it Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 is on marked on the survey. The problem with keeping 75' back is that it does accure in the driveway and the health Depar~men~ is not particularly fond of that kind of an application. TRUSTEE K=RL~PSKI: I think in this case they probably would make an exception given the type of lot. DIANE HEROLD: The would have too. If the Beard feels that this is the necessary part of this application ! submit this.. Mr. Murphy is considering making this a year round house. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: That is why we ask. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: That would make a difference. I would reco~L=L,snd to the board that we would recommend a new system. TRUST~R KRUPSKI: Thanks ~or being prepared. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: The bulkhead was redone with creosote, although not illegal. Are there any other plans to redo the bulkhead? DIANE HEROLD: I haven't been involved in the bulkhead, just the house plan. It was all done prior to me. I could ask him. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: O.K. So your co~m~ents sire all addressed? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Yes. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: Motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE GARRELL: So moved. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I make a motion to approve the application of Mr. Murphy with the stipulation that gutters and leaders into drywetls and upgrade the septic system as per Suffolk County Health Dept. approval. TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AYES. 8:48 P.M. - In the matter of VINCENT AND CAROL M~AGO request a Wetland Permit to reconstruct 150' bulkhead, stairs ~ build a 8' X 10' storage shed. There was a beach house and stairs as well as a bulkhead prior to 1971. Located 8225 Nassau Point Road, Cutchcgue. SCTM %!18-4-!0. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: is there anyone who would like to speak in favor of or against this application? CAC recommends approval to be inkind/inptace and to plant fill area and stairs on bluff must be 3' above grade. I took a look at the site. They serimu~ erosion problems. My feeling is that. there should be beach grass between, the bulkhead and the retaining wall and plant something ~hove ~hat that would hold it in better. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Motion to close the hearing. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I will make a motion tc approve the application with the condition that all disturbed are~ be planted with at least with beach grass at 18" center at ~he area between the bulkhe~a and the retaining wall and the area between the retaining wall and the yard. TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AY~.m. 8:52 P.M. - In the matter of PROPER-T PERMIT SERVICES on hehaif of ELA~ MC~UFF~ request a Wetland Permit to construct bluestone patio on two-level elevated bed, not exceeding' 18" above grade; stones set in sand bas. e with mortared joints; with steps to grade. Total area approx. 517 s.f. Located 175 Clearwater Lane, Cutchogue. SCTM %118-5-2.2. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is. there anyone here who wants to speak in favor of or against the application? Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 JIM FITZGERALD: Jim Fitzgerald for Mr. McDuffee. I don't have anything to add. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I looked at it it is pretty straight forward. Something like this could be looked at as a waiver as it doesn't have any impact on tidal wa~ers. JIM FITZGERAT~: Yes, I think I asked that as an alternative in my letter. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I make a motion to close the hes_ring. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second.. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I make a motion to grant this a waiver with the condition that a staked row of hay bales be placed at the landward edge of the lawn during construction and return the appropriate amount of money. CAC recommends approval provided the applicant direct the runoff away from the bluff and grade runoff to go south. TRUSTEE GARRRr. L: Second. ALL Ak~ES. q :2~P.M. - In the matter of U.S.D.A. PLUM ISLAND ANI!4AL DISEASE CENTER request a Wetland Permit and Coastal Erosion Pe~L~t to place ne cable between Orient Point and Plum Island. The cable will begin at the fifth utility pile west of Orient Point Breaker House. A chain-Lint fence 8' tall with a secured entry gate will be installed as well as barbed wire for added security. The entire fenced area is approx. 38' X 46'. Located Orient PoiDt, Orient. SCT51 $16-2-1 & 132-1-30. TRUSTE. R K~UPSKI: Is there anyone here who would like to speak on behalf of or against this application? I know ~he Board had some coiL~L~ents on it. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: MY coL~ents have been answered. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: CAC Eecommends approval with the stipulation that no overhead work be done within 300' of an ospre! nest between March !5th and July 15th. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: My concern was, are they going to disrupt the fishing industry. They are going to put it further north then old one. It should be pretty much out of the drift. They are going to do it between Novembem, December and January. It should be out of the height of the season. TRUSTEE Ei{UPSKI: They requested a waiver of fees. They are a governmental agency. Motion ~o close the hearing. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: So moved. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I will make a motion to approve with the condition that they dc the work in November, Decu~er and January. TRUSTEE KING: Second. ALL AYES. 9:00 P.M. In the matter of SOUTHOL~TOWN TRUSTEMM POLICY that will restrict the length of residential docks on. the Peconic& Gardiners Bays suck that they shall extend no further ~ha/1 100' from Mean High Water. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: (Al spoke first, tape was not on) Just because length is 100', it doesn't mean it has to be 100'. it can be 80' or 120' depending on each application. We just want. a length to be a guide line. TOM SAMUELS.: I am just going to say a few coamaents. Because. we have discussed this in other application. One of the problems that we as contractors and as consultants have is with the DEC. If you need 140' dock, you ask for a 240~ dock because you know they are going to cut Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 you back to 140. I hope we are going to come to this in this town. Were you feel that every application that comes before you has to be modified in some way. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Thank you. I am glade you brought that up. That is aggravating from both sides. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: That is not our intension. TOM SAMUELS: I know that is not the case in this town. I know you have met with East Hampton Town Trustees. Let me make. a point. East Hampton Town Trustees. really don't have jurisdiction. The Town gave it to the Zoning Board of Appeals. TRUSTEEKRUPSKI: We didn't base this on them. TOM SAMUELS: I know what there rational is. Now they are starting the same rumblings in Southampton. That docks should be 3' wide or it should be built with 4 X 4 pilings instead of 8" pilings. All these kinds of things. Again, get back to site specific judgement calls that you make. I will say again, 3' wide catwalk invites railings. The problem you have now is that there 3 1/2 feet above grade. Despite the fact that Aiternaflora grows under 2' TRUSTEE KRUPSKt: We are only on the docks in the bays. TOM SAMUELS: O.K. On every applicatio~ you have, if you are wil~ing to say have the bay constable d~ soundings, ask the owner what he intends to moor. Does he need 2 1/2 feet at low water, 3' Determined the length by that. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: The lengt~h of the dock is not necessarily determined by the size of the boat that the individual wants to moor. There comes a point in my mind where a dock is inappropriate and mooring is much more appropriate. A shorter dock for a smaller boat to reach a mooring is appropriate. That is my way of thinking. TOM SAMUELS: I agree with you. Bay docks are a head ache to build. They have to be built ver!~, very heavily. They are expensive to build. As a result they are rarely built, i believe. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I don't know about that. Some pretty big ones have gone in the last i0 or 20 years. TOM SAMUELS: If you are going to build docks on the bay, you are running a risk. They have to be co~ercial grade, structures. Very heavily built. They are very expensive. I have a sail boat on a mooring in the bay. I row out to it and it is no problem. I agree with you. But if a guy says he. wants a dock so he can run with a dingy out to his mooring, then you have to make a judgement call. If he can spend that kind of mone~ for a dock, and there is some rational that you can appreciate, fine. Site specific and judgement calls by'you guys. The only other thing with docks on the bay, is that I think you should be concerned with specifications. We are getting back to engineering aga~u. Thanks. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Thank. you.. Another point of clarification. The reason we are coming up with a general number on this is because of navigation basically. If you have docks jutting out at different lengths, you do effect navigation. It is a safety issue as far as boats going along the shore line. Anyone else. LARRY TUTHILL: You say that well you can change to 80,90, 100 or 120, why not leave it and make a general call before you ever start. We are going to have something of i00' and then you going to go around. We don't know what the dock has to be and it has to be designed to fit the area. You are going to sit here with 100' or so and you know you are going to change it. 'Why not start with nothing, then waste everybody's time. There are to many variables that you have to make a Board of Trustees March 27, !996 decision on, how bad the stoz~L~s are in that area, how much ice is in that area or so. It goes on and on. To make a statement that we are going to have a policy of 100', it doesn't make sense. Sometimes you don't want to be as close as a 100' because you don't want to run a ground. There are other places tha% you have deep channel and you can go close to shore. You can't sit here and... This is your job to pick out the right length of a dock, not to say a policy of 100'. It is your job to go and evaluate each and every permit. Not based on 100' We have had areas where docks a~e 20' long and it is too long. And yet some of them have to be 120' It's not right. JOHN COST~LLO: John Costello, Costello Marine Contracting. Number one, there are no professional marine contractors on this bos_r~. These gentlemen (in audience) are professionals. After much. conversation with their employers and a person who wants there dock. Trying to design and build a dock that is going to get approved by this board, by the Az~f Corp. of Engineers, the DEC and meet his needs is not an easy task. Everybody is watching out. environment, the public concerns. That is your job. These gentlemen are all professionals. They are trying to meet it half wa~. None of them told no on any application. They a~e not going to try and pass it between 3 or 4 agencies, that is going to be denied. We try to work with reason and try to meet the concerns of the people. I am telling you, I have tried to talk customers out. of many applications, because I have to!d them they are not going to get it from one of the agencies. I think that this board should listen to the professionals and make the judgement calls on every application as they come in. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Thank you. Agree or disagree, I thank all of you for coming, because all your co~L~,ents are valuable. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: I just want to add my voice and say that I agree with what Mr. Coste~lo, Mr. Samuels and M~. Tuthi!! said. Ail there points are very valid points. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I would just like to clari~I one of reasons we are adopting a formal policy. That is when the board makes a decision, we need to be able to legally justify that decision. When we have an informal policy we also need means by which we can, in the courts, be recognized as being consistent. We have had a case Where we were sued on a particular dock where we denied. We honestly felt it was too long and one of the reason we lost because we could not clearly show that we had a policy that w~ being eq,~lly applied. We were accused of arbitrary and capricious. That is part of the reason for us formuliz~ng these policies that we have had in the past. To give ourselves some credibility and something to stand on when we are challenged. STEVE LATSON: Steve Latson, from the Ba!anens Association. We think it is a good idea to ihave a policy on docks. The other thing is I would like to amend it a little bit. I think in areas, specifically where you have eel grass beds, you should avoid puttin~ docks out in the eel grass beds. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: That is one of the things we look at in... STEVE LATSON: I realize that you like, but I. think that if it is in your policy in areas in eel grass beds, you are not going to pu~ docks. That would be a good policy. At least from the Balanens point of view. Thank you. TRUSTEE KRU~SKI: Thanks. JOHN COSTELLO: Did you ever see eel grass under a dock? There is plenty of it. There are plenty of location, that there is eel grass Board of Trustees March 27, 1996 under docks. Come down to Montauk and look under the.., one of the largest marinas around, Montauk Yacht Club. They handle about 250 boats. It is lined with eel grass. Eel grass does survey under docks. STEVE LATSON: That is not our contention. Our contention is that there are areas where I cannot work. We can get shut out. of areas. We are shut out of areas in Northaven. ! would say there is a 1/2 mile area that I cannot function in. This is what our concern is in our industry. We are not saying that eel grass doesn't grow under docks. We are saying that you are cutting us off of being able to fish there. It is p~blic land. I thiP~ the assessment has to be how many people are going to use this land. If you have one home owner and a family of 3 or 4 other people, you are giving this person one piece of public land that suddenly 50 baymen can't go and scallop, or 100 baymen or more if it is a good scalloping. What you are doing is shutting of the ability to utilize this land. That is the real concern and the real issue. Who's land is it. We want to make sure that the'public lands remain open. TERRY HEANY: Terry Heany from He-ny Marine Construction. You say that you can't use the bottom underneath the docks? You can, you just have to work in a different manne_~. They are still there. You can't go up and down bay. STEVE LATSON: I know plenty of baymen who can't swim. That immediately shuts them off from going diving there. Most balanen don't want to take the time to take the dredges off and get into the wetsui~s and go diving. I have had !00 yard areas cut off from me, because you can't turn, you can't work. This is public land and valuable to us. It becomes very dif~i.cult to work there. I am not B.S-ing. i am telling you the truth. The more and more structures you have, the difficult it is to work. You are going to tell me that the traditional way of catching scallops.., and ali of a sudden we are going to become divers. That is basica!lywhat you are saying. I think if you had 20 or 30 baymen here, they would all say that they are not really psyched to go diving. I know very few. I was one of them. I much prefer dredging. Specially October, November, I am getting old. I don't want to get in a wen suite and go diving. TOM SAMUELS: What is the e~fect of scallop dredges on eel grasses? STEVE LATSON: As far as we know, virtually zero. If you really long line, dredge improperly and you don't know what you are doing, you could prob~b!y dig up eel grass, i would say in a course of a whole season, I never dig up one shred of eel grass. TOM SAMUELS: I don't know how you can scallop dredge eel grass beds without plowing it. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Let me just make a point. Eel grass is very similar to turf grass. It is a marine form cf risomes. It grows two ways., it set seeds and it also grows sending out...it comes up in the Spr'~ng, it grows new leaves and then it goes to flower. Then in the middle of the Summer at the height of the water tea~pature the leaves start to die back and by Fall most o~ the leaves are dying back and sheds them. By middle of Winter there is very little left of the plant, except a few leaves and the riseme mat under the surface. A lot of people say you are going in there and tearing up all this grass and they see grass on dredges and what not. Those are the leaves that are shredding naturally anyhow. Even if you didn't go in there, come spring time. they would have all shed.. TOM SAMUELS: You see it on the beach after an northeaster. Board of Trustees 15 March 27, 1996 TRUSTEE WF~NCZEL: Sure, it is a natural process. The only thing I saw dig up the risome mats, was the northeasters a couple of years ago. They dug up some risome mats. TOM SAMUELS: And some of the southshore clam diggers with the propwash do a nice 3ob on that too. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I bet. they do. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Back to the public hearing, is there any other co~uent on the length of docks in the bay. ALLAN CONNELL: The Southold Conservation Advisory Council is very much in favor of this policy. We think it is an excellent policy. There comes a point where the length of a dock becomes restrictive to navigation. More appropriately would be a mooring. I think by setting the policy, you are in fact setting those guidelines. That is what we have to remember here, these are just guidelines. If there is one board be flexible, it is this board. I have heard a couple times tonight where you have to look at each application on it~ merits and go out and investigate it. If there is one board that does that, it is your board. You act~!ly go out there and take a look at things, you get in the water. You make sure that you are making the appropriate decision. I would commend you for that, because you really do do a good job investigating the situation. It is just a policy. It sets some guidelines for peopla, so they know what they are working with. I would urge that this be approved. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Thank you. Anyone else? Board? TRUSTEE GARRELL: I think that it is very hard someELmes to avoid the temptation of going from policy or guidelines to codes. I know, Tom, I was very interested to h~ar those comments, because those of us who work with engineering sciences really profer to go that way. That is one of the things that brings us to an area of government codes and regulations. That is tl%e kin~ of thing we on this level try to avoid it. Maybe because we also feel. we don't have the expertise for it. It leaves back to policy and guidelines. TOM SAMURLS: I think we are confident in this Board. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Anyone else? Motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: So moved. TRUSTEE GAR~T.L: Second. ALL AYES. P.M. In the matter of SOUT~OLD TOWN TRUSTEES POLICY that will restrict the width of residential docks constructed over tidal waters and tidal wetlands to 3 feet. TRUSTEE KRU~SKI: This is a matter of basically, private propert~ rights. This Board has upheld, I think really admirably over the years, private property rights of ali the applicants that come in. This is a case of trying to uphold our own private property rights. This is relating to structures built over Town Trustees property. Every time someone puts out a structure, that area is forever monopolized by that one home owner. We have never denie~ anyone access to use the water; Very rarely is anyone ever denied a structure to get access to use the water. However, this is a case of once someone puts. a structure on our property, that is it. They more or less monopolize that area. It is something that we take very seriously. That is the reason that we went to a 3' wide catwalk, because because it is strictly access. To get out to deeper water. You put in a float, put in a boat. The trend was several years ago to go wider and wider catwalks. This is Town bottom. We don't want to see it monopolized by one person. Now I will take any coz~ents. Board of Trustees 16 March 27, 1996 TOM SAMUELS: This is in the creeks? TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: Yes. Town waters. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: In fact if you own the property that you are putting dock over we have and will consider a wider dock and h~ve no problem with that. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: if it is over your own personal property, absolutely. It is just like a deck or a house within ou~ jurisdiction. That is more or less your own property. If you want it larger or wider or what ever that is fine. When it comes to being over Town property. That. is our private property. The patent charges us with managing that property. TRUSTEE W~CZRL: One of the problem's is that there are so little public land left. We have roughly 2000 acres left. The population keeps growing. As A1 said we have to look after everybody's interest, not just the waterfront property owner's. We all have a right to it. We all own that property. We feel as a board that it is very important to find ways to make sure we all continue to have access to it. STEVE LATSON: I have a question. The width of the dock? or the structure leading to the dock? TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: The catwalk. If it is a co~Lauerciai facility, we have no problem granting a wider dock. STEVE LATSON: The docks will be wide~. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: Right. Customarily we approve a 6' X 20', that is the standard size. That doesn't have to be that size. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: For coL,~erciai, there are no limits. JIM FITZGERALD: Al, I think it is a matter of terminology. In the length you are obviously talking about the. overall structune, including t~e float and the ramp. In the width you are not talking about the whole structure. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It should say catwalks. Thank you. It is strictly an access point. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: If you car~r a cooler down a 3' wide dock, you can't see in front of you. You can't see the deck in front of you. Yo~ are asking for litigation against the town. Also they are unsightly. They make them build them 3 1/2' above grade and 3' wide, it looks like a fence is going threw the wetlands. TOM SAMUELS: 3' wide requires railings. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: We allow for 3' high. If you have to put railings on, that is fine. We were getting to 4' wide with railings.. People where asking for more in Mattituck Inlet. People where asking for 6' wide in Mattituck Inlet. ANGELO STEPNOSK!: Then restrict the people in Mattituck Inlet. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It is a matter of a public resource. In 50 years what is the creek going to lock like. Think of it that way. They are going to say "boy that board back in the 90's r~liy screwed up". That is what they are going to say. JOHN COSTELLO: You probably had more docks 100 years ago. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: ! don't know. JIM KING: I would feel much com~ortsble with a 4' wide walkway. I don't see what you are saving. TSUSTEE K~UPSKi: It is 25% reduction. TOM SAMUELS: What is the impact on your bottom. 1' A~GELO STEPNOSKI: You are not going to drive a boat next to it. You are not going to swim next to it. You are not going to clam next to it. You are certainly can't scallop next it with a straight run. Board of Trustees 17 March 27, 1996 TOM SAMUELS: Most of them are across tidal marsh anyway. Which is not your bottom, but is regulated under your tidal wetland regulations. If you want to get more light under the structure, increase the size of the space in the decking to 3/4". You will get plenty of light threw to the bottom. People feel very insecure. Specially older people, on a 3' wide catwalk without a railing, and justifiably. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: We have again, we have made exception to this. Again this is a policy. If someone has a physica!disa~ility, we will increase, for access pulposes, the size of the catwalk to whatever is necessary, if it is documented. As a general ruler it is public property. TRUSTEE GARRELL: You should point out, that even tonight, we had the McMahon application come up and we ~mnediatelywent to a 4' wide catwalk. We have no problem with that. Children and people who have disabilities. There are plenty of cases for a wider stance. This is a guideline. That is all that it is meant to be. TRUSTRR K~U~SKI: But we are still serious about 3' JOHI~ COSTELLO: I would like to read this into the record. There are some disabilities acts that you may make light of it. Number one there are othar boards. ! am address~gthis board i~regard~ to purposed changes in Town Code concerning construction of docks. I am asking you to reconsider you proposal to restrict the ma~gmum lengtk of docks and the restriction of 3' widtk. A 3' wide dock simply does not appropriate usage by any handicap persons, i have discussed this issue at length with several architects who have complete understanding of the Americans Disabilities Act. That is a LAW. They have enlighten me to the s~andards regarding this accessibilit~ as set forth by the American National Standards Institute. They have concluded that a minimum dock 84", which is 7', would be more realistic than a 3' width, by providing some tolerance for both turning and side positioning for wheel chairs. I is particularly important to view the shove stand~rd~ in light of the use at hand.. what ever minimum reguirements are reco~¥m~ended by American National Standers Lnstitute, as architects have noted more flexibility must be provided wken addressing docks, catwalks and ramus. Simuly p~t, in these settings there is little if no margin for error. Although providing tke bare minimum design standards may be acceptable wken on a stable land environment, it is not when you are dealing with structures surrounded by a height over rocks/water. Failure to provide sufficient widths on docks and catwalks for all persons, including the handicap persons. Everybody, whether it is m~ dock or your dock, should be considered handicap accessible. I would hate to restrict one. ~t creates a safety hazard which could su3aject the town to law suites for liability as well as being in viotatio~of the ADA laws. In addition to the concerns for providing safe access to docks for handicap, i would like to advise you that the NYSDEC standings on this iss~ is relative to the company's experience with such items and such request. The DEC thoroughly review all the impacts, including the environm~tal impacts for several projects before judging whether, they should be 4', 5', 6', or 7' The catwalks that they do provide extra width on, they probably elevate. In conclusion, I submit since the ADA requires equal access to all persons and the DEC accommodates, from that st~n~ point the propose code change limiting' the width of a dock to 3'~and the l~ngth to 100' should not be passed, i further ask you, please, to continue to evaluate the application on its own merits. Board of Trustees 18 March 27, 1996 TRUSTEE GARRELL: That sounds very much like federal government interference in Town government affairs. It is a quandary. I must say, just to repeat, they we don't have trouble with wheel chair access and access for the handicap, that is now problem. These are just guidelines. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: As far as some of the other c~m~ents in here. JOHN COSTELLO: You couldn't be advocating.., they wouldn't have the same access on any 3' dock that was bt~]t? They shouldn't be denied the right to go on them? TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Why would we deny them? I am not getting your point. JOHN COST~LT.O: The point is that the institutes that regulate the handicap access say that 3' is not sufficient. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: You are saying that if you apply for a dock a~.d somebody has a handicap... JOHN COSTELLO: Any handicap person has the right to go down any 3' dock as we well as any other dock. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: They don't necessarily have the right to go down my dock. That is private property. TRUSTEE Kt~UPSKI: On private property. JOHN COSTELLO: Anybody that I want on my property should have the right, whether they are handicapped or not, to go on my dock. Anybody. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Is your door 84" wide. Suppose they can't get in your house. I am serious. Do you have a ramp to your door? I am serious. This is private, property. JOHN COSTELLO: That is the ADA. That is architects making those decision. I didn't design that.. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Your point says your door should be 84" wide and you should have a ramp, so everybody can come at anytime. Wheel chair accessible in all your bathrooms. You should have an elevator so they can reach the second floor, In your home. JOHN COSTELLO: The architects that I have talked to say ~hat it would be better at 7' then 3' for handicap access. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I don't disagree with that. If somebody applies for that because they have someone in the family with a wheel chair, we don't have a problem with that. But to say they should all be 7'...If they go ahead and make every doorway 7' and every building and every house in town then you would be consistent. Why only docks? Why not just bathrooms. Why not have elevators in every house? Where do you draw the line here? LARRY TUTHILL: You are limiting it. That is the problem. ?RUSTEE KRUPSKI: Everything is limiting it. Suppose they can't get our of there care because it is an unstable gravel driveway. Everything is limiting it. The docks is not the limiting factor. LARRY TUT~MILL: By your legislation you are limiting it. TRUSTEE WENCZRL:. It is not legislation. TRUSTEE F~RUPSKI: The dock is not the limiting factor. Suppose they can't get off the boat because the boat is not handicap accessible? The dock is not the limiting factor. Everything on the property is the limiting factor. LARRY TUTHILL: ...people are handicap, ramps and everything else. TRUSTEE KRUPSKt: That is fine. We have no problem with that. LARRY TUTHILL: You can't go in and redesign a dock for handicap. For someone who is healthy today and tomorrow he isn't. Now he wants a handicap dock. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: I disagree. My neighbor had an accident and put in a ramp going right up to his door. They made his door wider. They made Board of Trustees 19 March 27, 1996 special facilities inside his h~use so he can get around. Things can be changed if there is a change_in your life style. If he had a dock, he can make wider. It is not like all of a sudden he needed a wheel chair, so his dock was to small- That wasn't his major problem. LARRY TUTH!LL: Those things you just can't change. You can change a door way, yes. But you can't change a dock. You can't change a width just like that. JOHN COSTELLO: Basically is your public policy now is trying to maintain 4'? TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: 3' JOHN COSTELLO: 3' now. Why are we here? TRUSTEE F~RUPSKI: We have a lot of policies that are informal. In fact all the Boards policies throughout years hate been info,iLeal. These are policies, not code changes. These are all policies. We ~have granted applications for wider docks, because they had a note from their doctor saying ~hey where 01d and unstable. Nothing a~out a whee~ chair. This is just a b~ic, general guideline here. JOHN COSTELLO: If this is the guideline, then why are we having a public hearing here. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: Because we are trying to do everything in the public. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: How does a dock a foot wider impacts your trust? You got 6' wide float out at th~ end of it. The length of the dock impacts the public land. it is not the width of the dock, it has nothin9 to do with it. TRUSTEE KRU?SKI: It is still ~uSt a massive structure, if you count all the structures in tow~ waue~s, it adds up. There's a lot of structures out there. ANGELO STEPNOSKi: Each property has a ceruain amount of footage to it, 100', you go 4' instead of ' that makes a massive difference. That is only one structure per TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It is a 25% red ANGELO: STEPNOSKI: it is a 25% nightmare. They look like hell. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: ! don't want t because that is what the people can't say... ANGELO STEPNOSKI: ! have never b roperty. uction.. eduction, but it is an aest~hetic comment on what they look like, rant.. They thing it looks good. We ad customer ask for a 3' wide dock. TRUSTEE KRU~SKi: You don't want us to say what kind of car to buy. That is up to them. They don't ~ven have to have the dock. That is up to them. ANGELO STE~NOSKI: ...to have acqess to the water. TRUSTEE KiNG: I think it even makes it difficult for these guys, because most of your !umbe~ com~s in multiples of four. You know how many 9' boards you have to cut. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: I saw a 12 footer once. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: That is besides the point. You are saving it · mpacts TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It is public property. TOM SAMUELS: The benefit to the town, it is. like "picking the ant doo out of the pepper". T~ spend suc~ time, is on real. The benefit a~alysts of this restriction, peDpl~ are afraid of policy statements when they are put in writing. T~Dy nave a way of becoming important. That is what we are concerned wi~. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: This is Lmportant. Board of Trustees 20 March 27, 1996 TOM SAMUELS: That is open to argument. It gets important to us in that it is another indication of the further restriction on property rights. I don't see where it is applicable. TRUSTEE KRUPSK!: This is what this. boils down to is property rights. We are not restricting somebodies proper~y rights. They own the property. We don't restrict somebody who wants to put an addition on, if they want to fix their property, if they want to put up a gazebo, a swimming pool. Did we ever deny somebody. TOM SAMUELS: Don't misunderstand me. I can't say it enough. I have said it before, how you do make site specific decisiens. That you do evaluate things. Don't misunderstand me. i am not saying that I think you are going change that because of this so called policy. I just find it superfluous. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: But to some people it is very significant. TRUST~R KRUPSKI: It is our responsibility, it is not like we can walk away tomorrow and we don't have it. Right now it is my responsibility. LARRY TUT~ILL: Are all the baymen here comu!aining about the docks? No. And number 2... TRUSTEE KRU~SKI: It b~ nothing to do with the baymen. LARRY TUT~ILL: Then why are we so concerned over i'? Another thing is people can easit¥ pass on a 4' dock. They cannot pass on a 3' dock. 4' is the proper width. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: If two people can't pass on it, you might have To wait for that other person to get off it before you use it. We are talking about residential docks. How much use do they get. You walk down the dock, you get on the beat, and somebody else walks down with you, gets on the boat~ When you come in you get off the boat and you walk single file up t~he dock. I don't see where that is a real hardship, personally. LARRY TUTHILL: I have seen these docks with an awful lot of us on it. Children running back ~ forth. You get a busy weekend and its full of people. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Larry, I am right in saying that you feel really that much more comfortable wi~h a 4' width as opposed to a 3' width. AUDIENCE: All said "big difference" TRUSTEE GARRELL: What is the big difference? TOM SAMUELS: The feeling of security. LARRY TUT~ILL: The actual width. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: You don't have to watch your step. Your perifial vision picks up the edge of the dock. TOM SAMUELS: Generally speaking most people don't want railings. They make the structure so much larger appea~ing. With 3' wide you more or less have to have it. TRUSTEE GARRELL: So with a 4 footer you live without railings. ANGELO STEPNOSKI: Did you ever have a la~ge dog run by you on a 3' dock. Be is not going to wait for you to get off. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: O.K. Do I have a motion to close the hearing? TRUSTEE WENCZEL: So moved. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Second. ALL AYES. P.M. - In the matter of SOUTHOLD TOWN TRUST~ POLIC~ that will allow fences delineating property lines to ex~end seaward only to the point of peak lunar high tide, and to be no more dense than a split rail fence. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: This came up because people live at. the end of right-of-ways, it is a people problem, the people that live on the Board of Trustees 21 March 27, 1996 road come down. They spill out on the ~eighbors beach and then there -is a conflict between the neighbors and there loud and they are leaving garbage and they are not nice... The neighbor wants to put up a fence, so the people can't spill over onto his beach. They want to put up all kinds of fences to stop the traffic flow. I don't know what kind of fence you are going to put up to stop traffic flow. Our policy is to let people put up split rail. fence. They can delineate. the property line, they can put up a posted sign, so that people now that is their property. If you put up anything more solid, is going to block the flow of water and sand in a stoil~ event. If you put Ko a solid fence when a stolm comes up it is going to wash sand against-it and it is going to scour sand out from the other side. It is going to be, in fact, a storm event jetty. What I rather see is just a split rail fence on the persons property line that they can post. Then as people trespass, it is like when they trespass anywhere else. Any comment. JOAR~-.COSTELLO: I don't know why anybody would make a comment. If this is your policy unfortunately, I don't why we are here. TRUSTEE F~RUPSKi: This is brand new piece. It has come up in the last year... JOHN COSTELLO: The other two are policies. It is nice to invite us for a night out, but if this policy, I can do without a night out. TRUSTEE K!IUPSKI: If we don't invite public co~Lu~,ent, everybody is upset because it is all behind a closed door. It is all cut and dry. JO~N COSTELLO: Before it became policy, it should have been open for public comment. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: Any other conunent on. the fences. LARRY T~LL: You mentioned "peak lunar high tide". Ownership is to mean high water. TRUSTEE K~UPSKI: This is in reference to fences on the bays. LARRY TUT~ILL: I don't care where it is. The ownership is still mean high water. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: We asked the State who owns the property. LARRY TUT_~IILL: They own to peak high tide? TRUSTEE F~RU~SKI: Their contention is that they do. They will issue no fence permit past peak lunar high tide. LARRY TUT~ILL: I don't think that they own it. TRUSTEE Kt~UPSKI: They will issue no pezmit past there and it doesn't make any sense for us to issue a periL,it anywhere else onto what they consider there property. If an applics/~t gets permission to put a fence lower than that point, th~n we would amend their pe~ait to what they consider their property. They are not going to allow that fence into the normal range of intertidal flow. That would become a jetty not a fence. If we disagree with the state, it is their property, we will put the fence down to where they think. LARRY TUT~ILL: I have.never seen any deed refer to peak lun~ tide. It is ordinary high water. Where you are coming from, ! do not know. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: That is a definition that we found in the code and that is what the State considers to be their property. If they consider that to be their property... LARRY TUT~ILL: Are sure that is their policy? TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It wasn't a full moon when we came up with that one. That is their policy. LARRY TUT~ILL: I have never seen that anywhere. They say to stop the fence a that point, but that doesn't say ~hat they own it. Board of Trustees 22 March 27, 1996 TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: The definition in the Town Code: Peak Lunar Tide; those excessively high tides or Spring Tides cause by lunar gravitation phenomena. They won't allow any fence below Spring Tide. LARRY TUTHILL: I am talking ownership. TRUSTEE GARRELL: I think you are talking different things. We are talking fences and you are talking ownership. Ownership is to mean hide water. The fence building is different, access. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It would be foolish for us to be inconsistent with the State with anything because then it puts the applicant in a bottle. TRUSTEE WENCZRL: Where do you think the fence should be too? LARRY TUTHILL: The property line. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: What about the composition of the fence? LARRY TUTHILL: That is fine. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: If we say mean high water and the DEC says Spring tide, you are stuck at Spring. So if we are saying Spring High Tide, we ate saying what they are saying and it is going be the same thing. That is what they said. TRUSTEE KING: What do you do with a property owner who has a monument and he says he wants to put the fence out that monument, that is my land, how can you stop hLm? He owns it. TRUSTEE KRUPSKi: We try and let them handle it with the State. That is up to the State property. We would refer them to the State. That is a good point. TRUSTEE KING: Everything I have seen on public access is from the ordinary high water mark down. These people that ru~ a fence all the way down to beach to keep people off the beach, they can't do it. You can't make them back it up 6' inland of his monument. There is no way. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: What about when the beach erodes? TRUSTEE KING: We would loose in court. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: What AbOut when the b~ch erodes pass the monument? The monument is in the tidal zone, which happens when the beach erodes. TRUSTEE KING: If it happens over time, there is nothing he can do. if it happens during a storm, he can reclaim that land out to that monument. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: ...happens over a period of 20 years. TRUSTEE KING: Say he takes care of it every year and doesn't let it erode. TRUSTEE GAR~¥.L: We are into that 3',4' argument again. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: It is always hard to draw a line. Lines are sometimes arbitrary. Seems like you have to draw'lines. It is part of our job. TRUSTEE KRUPSKI: It would be a lot easier if we didn't bring this up. We are here, because we want to do something positive. ALLAN CONN~.LL: The CAC would like to go on record...for it and as a citizen I would like to ...I like to walk the beach.. I don't have the luxury of owning waterfront property'. When I see a fence going down to the water, it is restricting my access. I think that is totally in appropriate. I see this time and time again. Whether it is spring high tide or mean high water. I think we are talking 2'. I think this is a policy that needs to be passed. STEVE LATSON: I think it is a good policy too, personally. I think the big problem in Southold Town is that we lost so much access to walk down the beach, bulk~ke~ds, jetties. I was walking up in Board of Trustees 23 March 27, 1996 Mattituck recently, I couldn't walk. I had to go up on the peoples lawn in order to keep walking down the beach, because it was high tide. Apparently they claimed the beach below the high tide mark. TRUSTEE GARRELL: Not only in this town, the whole eastern seaboardis the big problem. ALLAN CONNELL: Try walking at Nassau Point at high tide. Your going to get wet. STEVE LATSON: Yeah, I think it is a good idea. LARRY TUTHILL: You people don't understand. Your not going to allow' your property to keep eroding and eroding away, because I want the right to go to beach. The first thing to save your property, is to build a groin. "Ho no you can't build groins". They have this free so they can walk up and down it and this guy has to sit there and see his property erode away and can't protect it. One. of the things he would have to do with DEC or anybody else, your going to have to build groins. There are going to be groins up and down here to protect the land that is slowly eroding away. What has happen in Mattituck on the bay, those beaches were something like 200' wide. They slowly eroded away. They built bulkheads. They waited to long to build there groins to save the beach. Then you have these coastal geologist, the look at just east of Goldsmiths Inlet, these people are the worst people in the world. Look who they stole the beach from everybody. What has happened is when they built the groins 20 years ago, that is where the beach, was. These people have saved theEe beach. Now these people are brain washed to come in and say look how much these people have stolen t~ese peoples proper~y and taken the beach away from the adjoining pnoperty owners. When in actuality they have taken the time to save there beach and everybody has let it go. (changes tape) They were built by governmental people. There are groins in Southampton that have been there since 1927. They work good. They are low profile groins. The storms come they shoal up and when the storms are over the beach builds back up again and they are covered. They have been there for years. TRUSTEE GARRELL: How did we get from fences back to groins again? LARRY ~3THILL: Well we were talking about walking on the beaches. TRUSTEE WENCZEL: I think we are ready. ! make a motion to close the hearing. TRUSTEE GARRELL: So moved. ALL AYES. V. RESOLUTIONS: i. COSTELLOMARINE on behalf of KAREN ~ALY request a Grandfather Permit and a Coastal E~osion Permit to replace inkind/inplaee a 130' bulkhead, 16' return, 3' X 8' access stairs, backfill with 52 clean fill from approved upland source. Located 19895 Scundview Ave., Southold. SCTM ~5t-4-2. A motion was made by TRUSTEE GARRELL and seconded byTRUSTEEWENCZEL uo approve. ALL AYES. 2. CHARLES MC PEAK on behalf of KENT_ POET request a Grandfather Permit for Approx. 142' bulkhead, 4' X 36' stai~s on east side of property with (3)platforms, 7' X 4', 3' X 4' and 4' X 4', and approx. 80' of retaining wall sections as shown on survey dated 12-6-95 and 3-13-68. A motion was made by TRUSTEE GARRELL and seconded by TRUSTEEWENCZRL to approve. ALL A'~E-S. Board of Trustees 24 March 27, 1996 VI. MOORINGS: 1. DAVID HILGENDORFF requesu a mooring in East Creek for a 24' O'Day, access: Wilson's Landing. 2. ANTHONY NICOLINI request a mooring in East Creek for a 20' inboard with a mushroom. Access: Wilson's Landing. A motion was made by TRUSTEE Kt~UPSKI and seconded b~ TRUSTEE GAP_RELL to approve the above moorings subject to the bay constables placing them. ALL AYES. MEETING ADJOURNED: 10:30p.m. Respectfully submitted: ~Doher~