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Home My WebLink AboutZBA-01/14/1971 APPEAL BOARD ME~V~BER Robert W. Gillispie, Jr., Chairman Robert Bergen Charles Grigonis, Jr. Serge Doyen, Jr. Fred Hulse, Jr. Southold Town Board of Appeals -~OUTHOLD, L. I., N. ¥. 119'71 Telephone 765-~'660 MINUTES SOUT~HOI~ TOWN BOARD OF APPEALS January 14, 1971 - A'regular meeting of the Southold Town Board of Appeals was ' 0 ~ held at ?.3 P.Mo Th~sday, January 14~ 19?l, at the Town Office, t~ain Road, Southold, New York° There were present: Messrs: Robert W. Gill~spie, Jr., Chairman; Charles Grigonis, Jr.; Fred Hulse, Jr.; S~rge Boyen, Jr. Also present: Mr. Howard Terry, Building Znspecto~. Absent: Mr. Robert Bergen. T~CHAIRnMAN: The Public Hearing on Appeal No.~'139~ was held en De~ember l?, 1570 at 8:00 P.M. (~.B.S.T.),~upon application of E~i-Gen Realty Corp., North 0akwood ROad, Laurel, New Terk, for a variance in accordance with the Ecaing-Ordinance, Article X, Section 1008 (last pmragraph), for permission to use subdivision for multiple residence dwellings With increased density. Location of property: (Map of Greenport Homes) south side of Main Road, Gree~port, New Tork, bounded nerth~by Main Road, cast'by Ninth Etreet, South by L. I. Railroad Company, west by A. Gassidyo Fee paid ~.00. This is a decision making process. ~e can't take testimony as there was no public notice. We have discussed this matter with the Town Board and with the Plan~ing Co~missien. One suggestion was that a compromise be made and that we approve'80 units. If you relate this to non-conforming use, it should be ~8 or 60 units. You have asked fo~ 100 units and that would be an e~pansion of nOn-conforming use. This is a unique situation with this density. MR. DRISCOLL: (representing Dri-Gen Realty Corp.): Nobody questioned the amonnt of bedrooms. The existing buildings have 100 bedrooms right now. THE CHAiREAN: As I understand it, there were 50 units but one of them burned down; that leaves 48 units which comprise 96 bedrooms. MR. DRISCOrJT.: Ou~ plans are for one bedroom apartments. We are looking £or.lOO. one bedroom units. What we have now are 100 bedroom units but they vary from one to three bedrooms. If you look at the layout you will see l, 2 and 3 bedrooms so that, in all, there are 100 bedrooms now. THE CHAIP~L~: The original buildings have t00 bedrooms and you want to replace them With 100 bedrooms in five units. 'The Planning Director in Hauppage asked what will happen to the present occupants. ~. DRISCOi~: Two of the occupants have the right to move into the proposed apartments because they are senior citizens and have no children. These apartments will be for childless couples and senior citizens. THE CHAIRM~: There are two ways of talking about this; the number of people per acre and the number of dwelling units per acre. We have always been concerned with dwelling units per acre. RTe are primarily concerned with water. On the next plan there will be a minimum density of 8,000 sq. ft. per building unit. Tour property runs around seven acres. ~ome of these people are on welfare and will automatically be dispersed. This is not an urban development. This is a part of the consequence of whatever we do. This is a unique situation. I would be inclined to Favor 100 units if 80 units is unsatisfactory. MR. DRISCOI~: We have to have 100 units to come out financially. We have gone over this with architects and engineers and find that we canlt come out financially with less than 100 units. THE CHAiRI~: You might come out financially on 80 units if some were two b~droom apartments. MR. DRISCODL: We think it is beneficial to have one bedroom apartments; with~.no children. THE CHAIR~: to go? ER. DRI~COLL: live there now. Where are the people, who live there now, going ~nere are only eight families on welfare who THE CHAIR~N: About how many children live there now? I~R. DRISCOLL: Better than 80. THE CHA~LAN: We are concerned w MR. DRISCOLL: The bank said they 100 units. ~henlwe build one and it i on the next one, etc. THE CHAIRF~: Is there a demand ~. DRISCOLL: We will start with ith timing. will give us a mortgage on 85% rented, we can start or this type of dwelling? these (referring to plan); we will build the first one and rent iN, and then the second one and rent it. if we find it doesnlt go we will not tear the remaining buildings down. TH~ CHAIR~N: %~hat would be the I~. DRISCOLL: I have to get rid one. THE. CHAIRPiAN: How do we break it 20 units should you not have 20 units I~R. DRiSCOLL: There would be a d want to be fair.but canlt completely t THE CHAIRN~J~: It would be helpf~ as to when you will tear these down. be stuck with both at once. se quence ? of four houses to do the first down? After you have built down? ifference of about 10. ear these down. I if you would make a schedule I don~t think the Town should difference of two to four MR. DRiSCOIJ4: ~ill you give us bedrooms? THE CHAIRF~N: When you have 20 units up you will have at least 15 (old bedrooms) down before a Building Permit can be issued. t~R. DRI~COLL: ~et~s assume we build these two (referring to plans) and stop... We~will even it out. We will dispose of an equal amount of what we put up. We will put a fence up between the new dwellings and the old eries. THE C~IR~N: Do you plan to sell the old dwelling units? I~R, DRISCov.~4 We have a few of them sold. They do make good THE CHAIRM~: We are tZlking ~bout giVing 100 bedrooms for 100 bedrooms, which is economically justifiable. You Canlt tear down %0 units and put up 50 new ones unless you get the same n~mber of bedrooms. Their proposal is forsingle bedrooms. We dontt wamt to displace She people who a~e the~e now but Dri-~en ewms the prop~ty ~ it% se~ng we e~ cem~eI. We c~ s~ggest ~d '~y to ~rtve at a decision. ~y~dy t~nks it ~11 bew~tify the ~ea. I question ~e belief t~t t~s ~ll~eli~mate welfare. It will merely disperse it. ~ ~y will e~mate a ~ette ~d c~eate ~o~er eno. T~s is a matte~ ~at is ~e~nd ~he p~evince ef t~s ~d. If t~se people ~e fo~ce~ t~ sell for a sh~pping cente~ i~ ~m~t do ~eempert ~y ~ed. ~ere ~e a lot ef impomd~ables. I have spent ~ with ~e Pt~img G~mmisslem ~d it Seems that ~dy is ag~nst it. ~ em!y reason the B~d of ~ppe~s is involved is that t~s is mom-cen~er~ng use. What we ~e ta!~ng about mow 100 ap.~t~mts. A~e there a~y questions from any other members of the Boa~d? R~hat de you favor? ~. ~~: I t~nk t~t 100 is a big i~rove~nt oVe~ what we have t~re neu. ~t wi~ cut do~ the density in that p~tieul~ Occasioned. by ~ ~simg. I t~nk some of these people~t~mk it ~11 solve the welf~e' situation but do is disce~se the presemt._welf~e occmp~ts. ~R. ~RI~0~:_ ~ percemtage Of 'welfare in there is about I have beem~ $~eatemed for met ~emtimg te ~elf~e. I have a~ea~y p~blis~ fm t~ mewsp~s that tBese houses ~11 De taken ~e~ that senior ei~zems will ~ve im~the mew creels. ~f we h~ mo plus they could fo~ce uS-to ,~ent the empty ap~n~s bu~ ~de~ the way we have ~een operating we have kept te~ e~ty ap~t~mts thee. ~e w~t c~l~less eempleS, yegg ~d el~. · ~ met ~img te step senior ei~iz~s f~em having ~dc~ld~e~ visit them. T~ ~~: Tern ~e ~img te lease te childless temples. If t~e ~e~me ether ~esti~ms ~ybe ~. Eulse, w~ is from ~eempert, ~11 offe~ a resolution. .... ~te~, investigation, inspection, and Public Eearing, the Be~d of Appeals-~inds' t~ ~ello~ng fae~$ pe~timem~ t~ ~ decision. fo~ ' g ~ts by in 1~ ~ a 7.13 a~e ~rae~ sever~i ble~ks wes~ ef g. ef defense workers d~ing Wo~Id ~ ~ by le beseem adamants in five ~ s2ory Buildings, with 2~ appoints i~ each bmildimg; ~ eno ~cesse~y' building for was~ng ~ sto~age to be located ~n' a U shape~ drive wi$h ac~ss from 9~ S~eet. ~e~n~y ~lams imdica2e each appoint weUl~ be mini~ in size. ~th di~nsions of 17 x 35 fee~, tet~ing.595 s~. ft. A map filed with the Oo~y in 19~ defines 28 lots en the 7.13 acre site. ~ Van ~yl s~vey locates 2~ bmildimgs~ consiSting of eno, two, am~ four units, eaoh apartment varying ~rom one to three bedrooms each with the whcte project totaling 100 beseems originally, amd 50 original dwelling units. 0me deuble remit burned down; approximately ten detsrterated urn_its are Leaving 38 dwelling umi~s The original ~as inside and amd h~d~ood flOo~s, ~h b~fldi~s on pie~s, bo~ the p~ope~ty~ a~ a:~orecles~e sa~ in ~ latter p~t ~f 1970 in a ~- do~ ~mdi~iem. ~er ~i~ p~eh~e, ~he ~a~was zend B1 B~simess. ~ a mom~eom~o~m~g ~se in A=Residem~ial. ~ervi~e , sewage~ gas, electricity, g~bage re--vel, amd ~levisien. ~s ~mbina~em ~f single ~d ,~l~iple dwelling ~i~s ~d se~viees is a nen-~e~ng uae ~e in ~he ~o~. has the general approval ef th~'Town , the ~eenpert Businessmem~$ &ssoelatiem, · t was recommended to /;he'- Beard el; ~ ~eeter ef planning .~mffelk' ~e~y, eneu~ ~ltiple bed~oom~/~ts be provlde~-to ave~ dilS~laeimg ~esemtly hems~ l~ge fa~lies. ~ app~e~t rejects t~s~ smggestien ef p~eviding for smb~dized resents ~th c~l~em tm privately linseed h~simg ~d ~eposes to lease the mew apPOints. ~ e~dless couples. ~n considering fimds that licamt% present use to full The : approximately the unique problemS present, to the mew use apse number of bedrooms in individual a~ dotBles the D.U.~s ~ ~:~e ~$hout. app~eciabl~ imeveasing population demsity. The pregosal ,will afford than ly of the '9~esemt twenty-sevem ~uildimgs. 1~ivate financing has been a~ranged, which wi~ y' ~ds fo~ one bUilding at a ti~. g ~tll~:~e adv~ced for t~ next buil~ng; ~us p~vidimg ~. amte~ie:~suPPly de~d ~ela~tens~p ~ Pre~c~ng the/~ f~em eoms~me~lon of excess popmla~ien density on the Site atamy ~ime im the future which is in exeessofthe appli~amt~s proposal. The.proposal ~o change amd cent-inue the non-conforming use of the chamgeddis~ict is consistent with the nen-eemfermingmse provisions cf the o~dinamce (Sec. 1~07-C). Eowever, a va~iauce is ~equired un~de~ Section 10~8 {last~pa~ag~aph of present ordinance). ~dequate pa~ki~g space exists,. The Board finds that strict application of the Ordinance would produce practical difficulties or unnecessary hardship; the hardship created is unique and would not be shared by all properties alike in the immediate vicinity of this property and in the same ~se district; and the variance will not change the character of the neighborhood and will observe the spirit of the Ordinance. On motion by ~i~. Hulse, secende~ by 3@. Gilllspie, it was RESOLVED Dri-Gen Realty Corp., North Oakwood Road, Laurel, New York, be GRANTED permission to remove or destroy the existing structures aad ~eplace them with five two-story apartment buildings each containing twenty single bedroom apartments of not over 6%0 square feet each, and construction of an accessory building; all of which are to be located on the property approximately as located on the preliminary plan which is a part of the application, subject to the following conditions: 1. (a) Before a building permit may be issued for the first apartment building existing dwelling ~nits containing at least Fifteen bedrooms must be destroyed or removed from the site. Site refers to the entire 7.13 acres. (b) Before a building permit may be issued for the second apartment building an additional number of existing dwelling units containing at least twenty bedrooms must be destroyed or removed from the site. The same requirement is applicable before building permits may be issued for the third and fourth apartment buildings. A permit for the fifth apartment building may not be issued prior to removal or destruction of all the existing dwelling units. (c) In case the applicant elects to destroy some or all of the existing dwelling units in the course of the building program, no building permit may be issued unless all debris resulting from such destruction is removed from the site prior to granting of the building permit. 2. Offstreet parking shall be provided on a one for one or higher basis for each apartment unit, and at least fifteen parking spaces shall be provided for the accessory building. EAch parking space shall contain 334 square feet. All such parking areas and access driveways shall be surfaced With black top. The required parking area for each building shall be located at a distance not to exceed 100 ft. from said building. A certificate of occupancy for all or any part of a building may not be issued until the requisite parking area for said building has been completed. 3. Each of the apartment living units constructed under the terms of this action shall meet the requirements of all existing law. 4- Access to the site must be from Ninth Street. %. A building permit may belsSued for. t~e accessory buildingwhemever appliodfor; Accessory uses a~e limited ts washing faeili~ies amd st~age. Vote of the Boa~d: Ayes:- Messes: ~illlspie, ~igonis, Hulse, PUBLIC BEARING: ~ppeal No. 139% - 7:~0 P.N. (E.D.S.T.), upon application of ~e~assimes &Maohi Totolos, New ~uffolk Avenue & Deep ~ole D~ive Eas~, Mattit~ok, New Ye~k, for a variance im aoeorda~eewith the ~onimg ~d~mamce, A~icle III, ~eetiom 307, fo~ permission to'oomst~ue~ addition ~o extstlng~wel~ing with insuffiele~t sideya~d ~ea. L~eation of u~operty~ ~/~ New ~uffolk Avenue & ~/~ l~e:~ Hale ~ve Eas~, ~t ~7, ~ep Hole O~eek Estates, ~t~ok, N~ Y$~M. ~ee pai~ $~.00 .... ' ~e ~hafr~ epe~d the he~img by ~e~img the a v.~i~ee, legal no$iee ef he~img, affi~avi~ attestimg to its pmblica~iem in ~he offiei~mewspape~s, amd melee te the applieam~. ~~N~ Is the~e ~me p~ese~t who ~shes te speak f~ ~. H0~D ~y, Building lnspeeto~: ~s. To2olos ealled say she w~uld mot be here beeause of the weather. T~~N: ~e d~g to~t is haz~de~s. T~s dwelling is located_ On a eo~r lo~ whioh ~s ~he house ~s ~o have ~o f~omt ~dsI e~ ~$ feet a~ $~ o~he~ 35 fee~. ~e emtai~d because of ~he faot ~a~ ~hey ~e on a e~ner lo~. ~e hardship is i~ate. I wo~ld sm~es~ ~a$ ~he ~eqmes$ should be ~amted. ~' O~N: Is ~he~e ~uyoue p~esen~ who ~s~s to speak agains~ t~s application? (~e~e was ne ~espense.) Afte~ tmves~iga~iem amd inspection theY,d finds that the applieam~ ~eqmes~s te consumer ~di~lon to existing dwellimg ~e applfe~twishes te D~ild a ~ ft. wi~e a~di~lem em $~wes~e~ly si~e ef ~he p~esemt dwetlfmg w~eh~I1 have am imsi~e em~ee ~e ~he eell~. It is meeess~y te have ~e 24 f~. width te accedence ~e ~e ab~ ~e epem the e~ ~ee~s ~ te ~ve se~ s~e~age ~eem. It is aeme fa~ly he~ im a ~esi~emtial ~ea. ~e Be~d fimds tha~ h~dship la em~aite~ beeamse ef the fa~t that he~ ts on a eerne~ lo~. -8- The Board finds that strict application of the Ordinance would produce practical difficulties or unnecessary hardship; the hard- ship created is unique and would not be shared by all properties alike in the immediate vicinity of this property and in the same use district; and the variance will not change the character of the neighborhood and will observe the spirit of the Ordinance. On motion by Nr. Grigonis, seconded by ~Lr. Doyen, it was RESOLVED Germssimos & Machi T~tolos,-New Suffolk Avenue & Deep Hole_Drive East, Mattituck, New York, be GRANTED permission to construct addition to existing dwelling with insufficient sideyard area, as applied for. Vote of the Board:- Ayes:- Messrs: Gillispie, Grigonis, Hulse, Doyen. PUBLIC HEARING: Appeal No. 1396'- 7:50 ?.~I. (E.D.S.T.), upon application of Dominick Zito d/b/a The SouthOld ~nn, Inc., Main Road, Eouthold, New York~ for a special exception in accordance with the Zoning Ordinance, Article l~J, Section 406, Subsection (a), for permission to enlarge existing ground sign with additional heightL Location of property: north side eF~Main Road, ~onthold, New York,.~bounded north by L. Barnett, east by L. Barnett, south by Main Road, west by F. L.~Thompson. Fee paid $%.00. The Chairman opened the hearing by reading the application for a special exception, legal notice of hearing, affidavit attesting to its publication in the official newspapers, and notice to the applicant. TB]E CHAIRF~: Is there anyone present who wishes to speak for this applicat ion? PA~. HO~ARD TERRY, Building Inspector: (introduced Mr. Zite to the Board). F~. Zito put the papers in the mail to have them completed but never got %~m back. THE CHAIRNAN: Basically, wh~t is the purpose of the appeal; what is the size of the sign? ~. ZITO: We covered our original sign. It was a neon sign~ After covering it we found that it is a little bit higher. We wanted to get a Colonial affect. THE CHAIR~N: You are eliminating the neon sign. That's te the good. ~. ZIT0: There is a bottom piece that I took away. I put that piece on the top. FL~. HOWARD TERRY, Building InsPector: The total area is way under what is allowed but the height is mere than 6 feet 6 inches. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming in. ~Wnen we get the papers we will act en your appeal. On motion by Nr.~ Gillispie, seconded by Mr. Grigonis, it was RESOLVED that decision en Application No. 1396 be postponed ~til the~next meeting of the SSutheld Town Board of Appeals is held at the Town Office, ~ain Read, ~outhold, New York. PUBLIC HEARING: 8:00 P.M. (~.D.S.T.), PurSuant to ~Ectien 267, ~ubdivision 6 of the Town LaW of~the state of New York on the Board~s motion, a re-hearing on Appeal No. ll02; upon application ef Theodore 0. Bittner, ~oundview Avenue, ~outhold, New York, for a special excel~tien in accordance_With the Zoning Ordinance~ Article iii, Section 300, Eubsection ~ (d), for permission to operate and maintain stables and a riding academy. Location ef property: south side of SoundvieW Avenue, So~thold, New~York, bounded north by Bo~ndview Avenue, east by Zebroski-Booth, south by North Road, west by Sepenoski-Bittner. The Chai~man opened the hearing by reading the application for a special exCeDtion, legal notice of hearing, affidavit attesting to its publication in the official newspapers, and notice to the applicant. T~ CHAIR~N: At our last meeting which was held en December l?, 1970 we.listened to many of the neighbors who felt that"they were injured by the operations ef the Bittner Riding Stables (Hidden Lake Riding Academy). The~e a~e five pages of transcript, taken £rem these neighbors, _in the minutes of the last meeting. With this in mind, the Board scheduled this hearing with a view to taking possible action on the original action which granted permission for the riding academy to operate. ~$e felt that there was a definite possibility that some of the things that were in the original action were not being adhered to. (The Chairman read the Action of the Board ~aken on June 8, 1967).- The people who came in on December 17th complained about trespassing, and I don~t recall that anybody stated that they had given permission to the Hidden Lake R'iding Academy te use their property to ride over. Since the last time these people were in here, we asked the police for their ~eport and have several items from them listing their experience. THE CHAIRNAN: The FoNlowing people appeared here on December l?th: Mr. Angelo Petrucci, Mrs. Angelo Petrucci, Mr. Job~ B.~ Sepenoski~ Jr., ~s. John B. Sepenoski, Jrt, Mxo ~dward Charnews, Nz~s. Cornelia Cha~news, Mr. Stanley Sepenoski, I¢~. Nelson Axien, Mr. John Cha~news. The gist of their complaints was that riders trespassed on their property. The purpose ef this hearing is to give Bitt~er Riding Academy an opportunity to refute, and to give anyone else who wishes to do so a chance to speak for the academy. What we a~e considering is confining all ~iding to the property you own. That is the thinking oS the Beard. I~ you are endangering your adjoining neighbors, our recourse, first,~would be to ask yom to retain your horses within your own land. If that does dr work, we would have te revoke the permission for~a riding academy. ~ don~t think that would be in the best interests oS the community and I am hopeful that something can be worked out. At this point I think we should ask £er every person who wishes to speak to identify himself and speak briefly. First, as to whether their property has been injured; and second, whether they had given permission to use their property. MRS. JOHN B. ~EPENOSKI, JR.: (~0 acres) My husband is ill and is not able to be here. They have repeatedly gone over ou~ land. Not Miss Bittner but the Hunt Club. THE CHAIRI~iAN: The regular riders who usually ride do not bother your land? MRS. JOHNB. SEPEI~0SEi, JR.: It was just the hunting. would think it happened twice. I THE CHAIRF~2~: Once in June, and once on December 4th. Have you given permission in ~iting? MR2. JOHN B. SEPENOSki, JR.: No, we have not. ~. HENRY LYTr~: (9½ acres) I live on Soundview Avenue, a short distance from.~the~Bittner Riding Academy. We h~vw property that runs down to the Sound. I think y~u are aware that erosion is the problem at the moment. ~On this last hunt they rede all over my property and up and down the dunes. My husband watched and saw the me~ks they made. They have gone ever the rocks that we put at the head of the road going down to the beach. We live there ali year round on the Sound, from Soundview Avenue to Long Island gound. I would further say that the crossing of riders over Soundview Avenue seems to be an unnecessary hazard. There is lots of land on the. north side that they could use rather than coming across to the property on the south side. I think your police reoords will show the results of that hazard in the past. i have neve~ given permission to have the Bittner horses on my le~d. Unfortunately, it was one oS our First differences some twelve years ago. TW~.,-~EAIR~ZAN. Is it your experience that the only time they ride over property other than their own is d~ring one of these hunts? MRS. LYTI~: The ~ain trouble is during the hunts. The other is the hazard on ~oundview Avenue when they are crossing over. MR. ANGEL0 PETRUCCI: (20 acres) I have the same complaint. These people are trespassing on our property. Ye have complained to the police on several occasions. THE CHAIR~N: property? ~. PETRUC CI: Have you given them permission to ride on your No, i have not. MR. RiC~L~RD CRON: I am here in behal£-o£ many of these people who are here.. I think it ought to be made clear that the special exception in netway directly or indirectly gives the Bittners' the right to trespass on anybody's land. This Board could not give this type of permission. THE CHAIR~-: The only permission we gave (I thought I read it carefully) was that we Granted if the Bittners~ received~per- mission in writing. MRS. PUPECKI: (1/2 acre) The horses came through my vegetable garden and th~oughm~yfront lawn. ~. Bittner did reseed but I had nothing but holes in my front lawn. The new seeds in my Front lawn did not come up. The horses came down Peconic Y~ane and two minutes later the children across the street came to..wait for the school bus. If the children had been there before that, I don~t know what would have happened. JOHN CHARI~-EWB: (20 acres) Z own from the North Road to Great Pond. it was not too bad when~there were no foxhunts, i want them to stay_ef~ my land. No permission has been granted. ~want to be friends and neighbors but I want them to stay off my land. MR. PETRUCCI: I am here also to complain. Justbefore they had the horses there~I made a new road on my property, nice and clean like this floor.over here. It hadbeen raining and you can imagine what they did. This man did about $500 worth of damage. I would like to get paid off. i went to see this young lady, ~iss Bittner, when i heard about these rides. She said ~We don't need your place. You don~t understand horses", it was just like ta~ing te the walls. ~. CI~ENT C~S: (20 acres) I livs on a farm which my father owns. I li~e inca house on a~one acre plot. I was not home but my wife was outside of the house (there was a picture in the paper) and she was afraid she would be, stampeded. The picture does not show the horses on the property but they were actually on the lawn. My wife tells me that they came across by the mail box. ~. STANLEY SEPENOSEi: I don~t want any more foxhunSs en my farm. Etay off my property, ~. Bittner. i had an agreement that I could go on his property and he could go on mine but I never gave any permission for any outsiders. I just gave permission for Mr. Bittner, his wife and his daughter. THE CHAIR~IAN: Does this permission still stand for Y~. Bittner, his wife and~daughter. MR. ETA~,~Y SEPENOSKI: Yes, permission with restrictions. fexhunts. Those people are not nice. ~O MRS. JOHN SEPENOSKi, JR.: want hunters, off my property. riding on it. ~yhusband is in the hospital, i We have our land posted and want ne MRS. LYTLE: May t add that some years ago we held a hearing here en the subject of having a theater on Lake Road and one of the main objections was that that road was too narrow and would be hazardous. Horses get loose quite often as the police records will show and it is far more hazardous. I want to register a strong objection to ho~ses crossing Soundview~Avenue for riding purposes. Before, i made mention of the hunt; and now, the trails. ~,L~. RICHARD CRON: I would, like to reserve com~aent. THE CHAiRK~: I understand that ~. Bittner owns property on both sides_ of Soundview Avenue. I~RS. LYT~: I am referring to the horses that are crossing ~oundview Avenue. That is a narrow and winding road. THE- CHAIP~IA~N: I have had a number of communications indicating general disapproval. (The Chair~n read letters from~NelSon Axien, who lives about two miles from the Bittner Riding Academy; i~. Richard Grigonis of Kenney~s Read; and l~. John B. Sepenoski, Jr.). (The Chairman also read Police Reports.) ~. RICHARD CRON: I don~t recall hearing a complaint of June ll, 1967 (Baron & Baritz) who claimed to be hit bY horses. MR. BITTNER: That was prior to the time my place was opened. MR. CRON: The permit was issued on June 8th. THE CHAIRNAN: The original ~ction was granted on June 8th; and the original application was made on May 19th. THE CHAPMAN: Does anyone else wish to speak? I am sure that both Miss Bittner and 2~r. Bittner wish t~ speak to ~efute the charges. Is there anyone aside from them? ~. RICEA~RD CRON: Aside from the rather serious violation of trespassing I am informed by some oF' this group that there are other violations that have taken place. I believe that during these £oxhunts the offstreet parking provision ef the special exception was violated. In other words, there were cars parked off their property. THE CHAiRNA~: On I)ecember 4th there were horse vans parked off Kenney~s Road. ~R. RICHARD CRON: I have no way of establishing this but I believe that concerning the removal oF manure it has not been on a weekly basis. It is also contended that trail riding with respect to supervision has not been complied with. ER. NICO SDTMODT~ER: It is supervised. Pm. RICHARD CRON: It then becomes quite obvious that it is a flagrant and intentional.violation. If anyone has full responsibility it is not the riders but the academy. Th~ most serious complaint is this bmsiness of trespassing. THE CHAIRNAiV: Trespass under supervision? MR. SUT~iO~R: i know that all trails are supervised and we make a point of not trespassing during trail rides. ER. RICHARD CRON: I think th~-s gentleman can only speak for the eeoasions when he has taken riders out personally. TME~ CHAIRI~N: Now, I think we should hear from Mr. and Miss Bittner. MR. THEODORE BIT~R: i am glad of this opportunity to be able to speak, i want to comment.on the honesty of the people who came here up to She time the last gentle,an spoke. I want to state that I took note that nobody claimed that Hiddea Lake Farmst horses rode on their property. The Smithtown Hu~ Club has been out here and have unloaded on my property. I gave them permission to ride on my hundred acres and on i~. Doroski~s property. THE CPIAIRI~N: The original application was for a 31 acre tract. t~R. BZTTNER: For housing; For stables and barns. TEM CHAIRMAN: You own 100 acres. This is contrary to the information I have accumulated. ER. BITTNER: I own 60 acres on the Sound and 40 acres on the 2L other side. I had 100 acres but the Town took away ~ acres so this leaves actually 97~ acres. THE CHAIRF~N: ~oundview Avenue runs right through the property. ~R. BITTNER: We have the signs there that you require. THE CHAIR~La~: You also use ~teve Doroski~s land on the north side o£ the county road? ~R. BiTTNER: Also Tom Ward!s and Zebroski~s. THE CHAIRF~: F~. ~ BITTNER: property. This should be in writing. However, our trail rides are all on our own THE CHAIRMAN: ridden off your property. Then, you say that no Hidden Lake horses have MR. BiTTh~ER: The H~nt has nothing to do with me. Bmithtown Hunt Club. It's the THE CHAYR~: How do they arrive here? ~q. BITT~ER: They call us up and ask iF it is all right to unload on our property. All of these people, who are here, could w~ite to the ~mithtown H~nt Club. Thatls all they have to do. THE CHAIRI~N: I can write to the Smithtown Hunt Club. MR.~ BITTNER: re sponsibility. THE CHAIRF~N: for my guests. I o££ered them my land. I do not have any I would assume I had considerable responsibility MR. BITTNER: As I said before, the stable horses with which we are concerned have never trespassed on anyone's property. In regard to the Hunt, in all probability they have trespassed. As ~. Petrucci said, they went on his soft road. Truthfully, if I had despoiled my land the way he has I would not be here. He meant soft mud. I am talking about F~. Petrucci~s property. All the woodland has been lopped off and the topsoil blows over to us. THE CHAIR~L~N: To~ are bringing up something which is irrelevant. You do not ride £rom~ir. Petrucci~s land. MR. BITTNER: Regarding some of the letters that you read; we are sorry that our horses break out. Since that time I have installed a~ electric fence. At th~s time I will give ~s. Pupecki some more seed if she needs it. Trail riding is done under supervision. We have our o~ trails. The riders follow it and it takes o~e hour. ~e have never broken that rule. The Smithtown Hunt Club has their own leaders. That's their business. THE CHAIR~N: It is a very unpleasant thing for your neighbors to have the Hunt Club ride over their property. MR. BITTNER: I dontt Feel that if ~r. Smith comes over to see me and then he goes next door to beat up Mr. Brown that I am liable for his actions. Also, ! dontt believe ! am liable for the actions of the ~mithtoWn Hunt Club. Trespassing is a serious offense. A court of law should be able'~te tak~ care o£ that. All the people need to do is to file suit against the ~mithtown Hunt Club but certainly not against me because my horses have been in the b~n and they have not been on anyone else~s property. THE CHAIRi~: I wish to ask Mr. Bittner about Baron & Baritz, June ll, 1967. is that true? MR. BITTNER: These were two pr'ivate horses. This happened prior to the time that we operated the stables. My horses got cut. ~ghen we got to the stables the gates were open and the horses were out. The driver of this vehicle saw the horses and became alarmed and he drove off the road and hit one horse and killed him; the other horse was injured and died later. This was prior to the time we asked for permission for a riding academy. We opened July 2nd. THE CHA_rRNAN: You were granted permission on June 8th. MR. BITTN~R: We did not have any horses at that time. These were my private horses. I~. LYT?~: M~. Bittner has kept horses on his private property for over 12 years and it was not unusmal for the horses to get ont. These horses, undoubtedly, were from his place. ~. HO~AR~ TEHE~, Building Inspector: These horses were housed on your home property? I~JR. BITTNER: Yes. I~S. GEBHART: Miss Bittner was at my home and when we went~down to see the horses we found the gate had been deliberately opened. We spent half the night looking for them. I had Just gotten into bed when the ~outhold Town police called to.say that they were sorry to inform us that one horse was dead and the other was injured. T]~ CHAIR~N: These were privately o~uaed horses. MRS. LYT~: In verifying Mr. Bittner~s statement, this was not the first, time.the horses had gotten out. MRS. PUPECKI: It was quarter to seven when I saw the horses on my lawn and vegetable garden. I saw some on the property of my uncle and I called ~iss Bittner~and then called the police and told them the direction where the horses went. i~o JOHN CHAR~S: Are there any other horses besides F~. Bittner~s in this area? Mr. Btttner says his horses never trespass but between foxhunts i~saw tracks on my land. FA~. SUT~OLIE~: DUne s .... Another stable takes out parties; Pinecrest MR. HULS~: t believe they do all their riding on the Sound. 2~R. FETRUCCI: i would like to remind you that Mr. Bittner said they don~t trespass. Only a year ago he personally sent a man to my house, with a secretary and oar, and asked permission to go on our property. He said he was fromM~. Bittnerls property. THE OHA~NAN: You said you did not give permission. NR, BITTNER: I understand that the Smithtown Hunt Cl%%b sent somebody out to get permission. l~. ANGEL0 PETRUCCI: They told us that we could be guests, etc. Me just told them to stay off our property. Years ago you would have a shotgun and shoot anyone who came on your property. ~. L~: ~. Bittner claim~ no responsibility for what the Smithtown Hunt Club did. Could they trespass if he had net allowed them to pull up vans on his property? THE CHAIRF~N: When I passed the vans they were on eeunty property. ~They were parked there at about one er two o~clock. In the special exception that we g~anted it specified that there shall be offstreet parking for all customers~ and employees~ cars and vehicles. It would see~ that there is adequate parking. Why it was not used, i do not knew. We can't cover everything in one of these exceptions. ~MP~. ~YTl~: My point is that if he had not allowed them to park there_we~would never have had this trouble. My ether q~estion is my understanding of what the word ~centiguous" means. Mr. Bitt~er owns 40 acres lying between the North Roa~ and Boundview Avenue. On the m~p you come to $oundview Avenue at that point Where you will have to cross ~oundview Avenue in order to use the 60 acres. Thatls why it becomes a hazard. You brought out that he was granted permission but not for 100 zcres. THE CHAIRMAn: If you just have to cress the read, it's one thing. The sig~s are en the Town read. THE CHAIRM~I~: It would be quite different from owning a piece of property~a mile down the road. (The Chairman a~d M~s. Lytle referred to the map and discussed the ~oundview Avenue crossing.) 'MR. BiTT~ER: You are suppesed~to go 30 miles an hour on that road. If you ge 30 miles an hour, you caa see horses. NR. JO~ CHARNEW~: Zt is my opinion that he is responsible for what damage the f~oxhunt does. If I have a man working for me and ha does some damage, I am responsible. Mr. Bittner is re sports ible. MR. RICHARD CRON: Does anyone from ~r. Bittner~s stables attend these foxhuats? T~ CHAIP~¥~J~: Do these people enter your premises? MR. BITTNER: They go down our trail into our property. round up a.fox and Just ge wherever he goes. They MR. RICH.~RD CRON: They start from your trails but they are not supervised. Are they using ye~v trails? MR. BITTNER: They are using my property. MIBS JACQUEIJ_NE BITTNER: They don~t use the trails. F~. JOHN CHARNEWS: ~hat kind of neighbors are we that we have to fight? YL~. ~TANIEY~EPENOSEI: I have seen them let a fox out of a box in front of your house. MIS~ BITTNER: That is a-downright lie. 2~R. RICHARD CRON: When they start on'his property, it seems to me they should be confined to his property. MR. ~TANiE~ SEi~ENO~KI: I can not stomach this. ~ cHAIRNAN: Then, i suggest you leave, F~. ~epenoski. MR. CRON: I have always found that this Board dealt carefully with special exceptions, I believe you did likewise in this case, because you were careful to determine the land would be 31.97 acres. Now we find that there are 97 acres that are being used for a riding academy. ~. BITTNER: At that time you asked what part of the land would be used for the horses to g~aze on and for barns. THE CHAIRMAN: ~o them this still stands. This is the land you wish to use for horses. I~. BITT~: It was definitely understood at that ti~e. MRS. LYTI~: If you are familiar with the ads you will see that Mr. Btttner has advertised 100 acres of trails. i~R. CRON: I wonder if Mr. Bittner directs the Hunt to go on his property. Does anyone accompany these people at this point? NR. BITTk~ER: i am not interested in hunting. I de net. MISS J. BIT~NER: I have hunted for fifteen yea~s. t~R. CRON: Do you go with them? MISS BITTNER: Yes, on my private horse. with Hidden~Y~ake Farms. It is not connected THE CHAIR~2~: Does anyone else go on the Hunt? HISS BITTNER: i am the only one. MR. CRON: Does this Hunt break up in all directions or do you all stay together as a g~oup? MI~3 BITTNE~: The officers do break up. He have what we call ~whips~ trying to keep the foxes in the woods instead of running o~t. THE CHAI~MAN: Sometimes it brea~ks up in smaller g~omps. ME. JOHN CEAR~EWS: He should fence in his property So his guests won't run on someone ~e!se~s property. This is not the place for fox- hunters to run a~ound. MR. CRON: It is not valid as to whether the horses are private or not. There is no distinction. ~ CEAIRMA~: I agree. We are concerned with the character of the area and.the preservation of private property. ~. CRON: I th~nk there is enough before the Board to have this special exception substantially revised. FA~. BITT~ER: I want to say that not only do Z feel that the riding academy has been a real boon te ~outhold Town b~t hundreds o~ people have had instructions there and i think the benefits outnumber the things that they are trying to attach to us. if $outhold loses this academy they will be losing something of value. THE CHAIRMAN: to ride? ~ How m~ny people have been elevated by learn~ug ~. BITTN~R: Possibly a thousand. TEE CHAIPd~: This ~iding academ~ acceptance is due to the Fact that you have the facilities but it is apparent that as a result of these riding activities these people have had their property damaged and their safety has been involved. MR. BiTT~ER: Tou say that horses have been killed but they escaped from~m~ proPerty prior to the time that we opened the stables. Another point is that the academy has been run according to the terms and specifications that you laid down. Furthermore, the matter of trespass is a court action. It is not for the Appeals Board. I don~t see why they did not bring it before a cou~t where it belongs. The ~mithtown Hunt Club is liable but it does not concern m~. THE CHAIR~L~.N: i think these people have been very £orebearing over a period of years, if they wanted to go to court they could have. The point for us to consider is the general safety and welfare of these people. MR. BiTTNER: TBE CEAIR~J~: MR. BITTNER: Ne have disturbed no one. Do you deny that horses have trespassed. I ask anyone to sign a statement that Hidden Lake Farms~ horses h~ve trespassed. MR. CRON: But others may use his facilities and do anything they want. ~His contentions before were completely erroneous. One of the provisions was that the riding academy be just on his property. He can not make the distinction that he is not responsible for others who use his land. He can't disclaim responsibility because he doesn't o~m the horses. They are there because he has a special exception. If he did not, The Smithtown Hunt Club, or anyone else, would not be~able to ride there. FA~. BITT~ER: The Smithtown Hunt Club does not have to have permission. They can stop anywhere and nobody can stop them. ~. LYT~: I have known Yzm. Bittner for at least fifteen years and I say that unless you are invited I would not recommend that you go on his property. This has been a problem of long- standing. Any time you want anything done you have to have a fight. I had to threaten him with an injunction, using F~. Edson, for ~ublic nuisance. The man who owned the property adjacent to him had a great deal of trouble. This has been a long standing annoyance that has grown with Mr. Bittner acquiring more land. I speak out of fifteen years experience. THE CHAiU~I~N: I think the Board has enough information to perform its function. I think we will close the public hearing. My recommendation will be that all activities be confined to the land o~med by Mr. Bittner. If there is any violation of that the action of the Board Would be to withdraw permission for a riding academy. I think this has emotionally injured his neighbors. MR. CRON: When you say that all activities be confined to ~. Bittner~s~property do you mean the 31.97 acres? TH~ CHAIRNAN: i think it would be injudicious of this Board to deny the ~se of his o~ land. I would Clearly indicate to the Board here that the special exception is on 31.97 acres. There is no application before th~s Board to expand. ~R. CRON: if we are going to confine it to ~. Bittne~s land, I think we should clarify and I would like to further clarify and ask where the trails should be. -20- THE CHAdiAN: Confined to the land of 2~r. Bittner. Mr. Bittner will have ~t0_have written permission filed with the Building Inspector in order to ride on any other land but his own. if he is going to use N~. Doroskits land, or any other land, he must have written permission. This applies to the activities of the Bittner Riding Academy. MR. CRON: Any horse taken out on trails would have to be on Mr. BittnerJs pr~operty. THE CHAIRi,~J~: ! think ~r. Bittner does a disservice to the community to_allow the Smithtown Hunt Club to appear here. MR~. I~TIE: To clarify, we a~e going to increase the area he can use from~ 31 acres to 100 acres. i~R. BITTNER: You are trying to put Jackie out of business. I~hy not say it~right out? Me have had 100 acres From the very beginning. The 31.97 acres is for feeding and stabling. You need for a certain amount of horses, a certain amount of space. Therefore, 31.97 acres was sufficient £or the amount of horses we had. F~i. CRON: I find it strange that you would leave out 60 acres. i~A~. BITTh~ER: Nothing was left out. You are trying to put something in. MR. GRIGONIS: I think I~v. Cron has a point. (The C~airman read paragraph ~ 6 and paragraph ~ 7 of the Action). ~2. SUTMOT~: It gave permission to cross roads. If they only used 31 acres they would not halve both?red _tO put up signs. l~R. jOHN CHARNEWS: No. foxh~unting. There will be trouble. THE CHAIR~J~:' I suggest that we cantt tell him what guests he can h~ve. I assume that when they called he invited them. I am going to suggest to Mr. Bittner that there be no hunts; that ~this land is not suitable for hunts. I~R. CRON: What do you mean by ~boarding and stabling~? THE CHAIRIng: Feed and housing. If you go away they will take care of yo~.horse for you. ~. cRON: Is every bearded horse a stabled horse? I~R. BITTNER: Yes; but G~ the contrary every stabled horse is not a boarded~horse. The Hunt has to be eliminated. 2. BITTF~ti MayI suggest ~at t~e BeardOf Appeals w~ite tc the Smith~owa Runt Club andtelI'them that-they a~e not wan~ed. I dontt want ~e have ~he bad publicity. That is the end of the Hunt. Y would appreciate it if you w~utd do it. ER. t/UF~E: I think this should be a t~e-~ay street. tc write _the letter and you agree net te invite them, Ue agree ~R.. BITTNER: I never know whom they a~e coming. ER. ~;'~nSE: ~etts say, you~say ~Ne~ next ti~. has Be~ s~ifieally enjolae~ by the ~ ef Appeals ha~mg fexhunts on ~s or mei~.oring l~d. ER. BITTK~R: If you do that, ~hat willsolve the p~oblem. I have kmowm these people and I have ridden with these ~eeple for yea~s. ERS. ~: ~h.ht is to prevent ~hem f~om coming to anothe~ a~ea? If the Scald goes this fa~, they should say f~ the entre ~e~a. ER. BITT~ER: invi ration. ~ CNAIRNAN: ER. BITTNER: The wh~le T~wm of Seuthcld. The~e is a place in~ast Ma~ien that gave them an How many ~iding academies a~e there? Threee ERS. AN~E~O PETRUCCI: ' ~ thimJ/ ~e. Bible, ts nei~e~s have been ~re ~han f~. ~e have n~t w~te~ te B~img leal action But $~$ ~ ~s a way ~h ~m, a play on ~ds... T~TR~J~: I am g~ing te close the hearing now.' We will w~itea letter te the tmithtewn Runt Club along the limes we have discussed here, After a rehea~ing ~and investigation at methe heard witnesses, read Ietters ~f complaint and ~eports., the Boa~d, ha~ revise~ the speoial~eem~l.~iemsum~e~ w~ch this speelai ~eep~l~n was ~ted, as a resmlt ef ef ~ e~ t~ ~i~o~s ef ~hs~dden ~ke~Ri~mg &caVe, Which is o~e~by ~, ~eo~er~ O. Bit~ner. ~e Be~ fim~s that 'the APpealswillwrite a lenten'to the'S~thto~wm ~nt Clmb informing them that~J Bittne~ has been specifically enjoined by the Beard ef Appeals against having foxhunts on his or neighbe~img lands. There is ample a~ea on the ~eperty s~that all riding~nst~ue~ions can Be given on~. Bltt~er sprope~ty; and there is ample a~ea tc take care of parking facilities. On motion by l~m. Gillispie, seeended By F~. ~igents, it was _ _RESOI~D tha~ ~he speoial .exception (~ppeal NO. 1102 - J~me 8, 1967) ~' te Theodore O.. Birthed, ~umd View Avemue, ~eutheld, New Ye~k, be~revised as follows~ Coneli't~ion Ne. 6.- Conditiem Ne.10~ Vote of the Beard~ ~yem. Ail ~iding instructions amd t~ail ri~ing shall be en the ~ope~ty of the owner or othe~ premises with the owne~ consent in w~iting te be filed with the B~a~d of Appeals. O~gamized hnnttng c~ riding By equestrian g~oups, inoluding foxhuu~s, is specifically p~ehi~fted in the Town of ~outheld. ~yes~- ~essrs. Gillispie~ ~igenis, Hulse The mattt.~uok Znlet~off~p~emises_sigme~post~e ~OX Neck Road; ~ p~epe~y of ~lco has ~een sold ~ ~am ~i~$. have new'r, eoeived Bulletin ~ 8 ~rom the ~uffolkC0unty Plannimg ~ommiosione~o (~, Te~y rea~ from the ~ulletim). We a~e goin~ umde~ a mew boehf~eeping.system as of the 1st of ~e yea~. ~e ~ve ~o ~ave the ~ate of eve~y~o~y~s ~i~ ~o go im t~e oolites. ~. ~ex~ ~ooE dates of ~irth f~om t~e ~oa~ members. The Association of Towns meeting will be held on ~nday, Feb~a~y 7th, 1~71. Ail a~e invited. New Yo~k, Appeal No. 138~, on non-oenform~ng use. Vote of the B~a~ Ayes.'- ~essrs. ~illispio, ~igemis, Hulse, On motion by~ ~lse, seconded bye. Doyen, it was m~nUtes~ ef .the meetimglof' the. SOu~held Tewm datedDecember l?th, 1~70, be approved as s~bmttted sub,eot tton. Vote of the Bea~d-~ ~es~-.~ess~s. ~illispie, ~igonis, Hulso, On m~tion By ~m. Doyen, seoonded by ~. ~mig~mis, it was RE~L~ED that the:3euthold T~wn Bez~d of AppealS- set 7~30 Poll. ~n aeoo~dauce with the ~onimg 0~di~ane~e, .~etiele 1~, Seo~om 303, ~d ~Ie X, ~e~ton~-1000A,- for Pe~s~on ~o S.e~.of~ lot ~ im~ffielen~ ~n~ ~d ~ea. ~a~en.of p~op~y~ eas~ s$~e Riley Avenue, ~t~ck, N~ Ye~k, ~b~ded me~h By S. ~ch~, east by ~, geb~os~, se~h ~y ~, ~ssom, ~s~ by ~ley Aven~. Vote ef the ~ A~s:- ~s~s~ ~llispie, ~i~mis, Hulse, 0n motion By ~. Hulse, seconded By ~. Doyen,. it was ~ODfED that the-'~euthold Tou Boa~d of ~¢eals set varla~ce im aeoo~damce' With the-~o~ing 0~dimamce, ~tiele 1~' Section 307, fe~ ~e~ssiem~ att~h e~s~mg ~el~ng ~d: ~ees~y ~Utl~'~ ~e~eed Side y~d ~ea. ~e e~ ~iva~ read ~eated west si~e ef ~amp ~eela. Rea~, ~atti~ck, New Yo~k, ~e~ ~th ~y ~0 E, Allen, eas~ By ~ P. ~9hy, ~u~h By ~i~t-ef-way, west By P~I Vote of the ~a~d.- AYes~- Ness~s: ~illispte, ~igenis, Hulse., Doyen. On motion by ~....~igonis, seconded_By ~._Hu!se, i~t was SouShold, ~wm ~Bea~d: of ~7~, at the set , Naim: Read, New Yo~k, -.~iom" in aeeb~damoe t~e: A~tiele S~bSectiOn ~5 (a), fo~ ;permission'to family d~mg as a ~m, eo~o~mg ~se, -~eati~'-of p~ope~: west'si~e of Bay Ave~e, ~t~ck, New Yo~k, bo~ded mo~th by ~est Wilsbe~ oas2 by. Bay Avemue, ~ BYj. ~ Halleck, west b7F. · Jo ~llo. Vote of the Beard.: A~es:- ~ess~s: ~lllispie, ~tgemis, Hulse, ~oyen. ~e Neetimg was ad~o~m®d at Kes~eot~lly s~bmttted,