HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB-10/02/2000Town Hall, 53095 State Route 25
P.O. Box 1179
Southold, New York 11971-0959
Telephone (631) 765-1938
Fax (631) 765-3136
PLANNING BOARD OFFICE
TOWN OF SOUTHOLD
MINUTES
October 2, 2000
6:00 p.rn.
Present were:
Bennett Orlowski, Jr., Chairman
Richard Caggiano
William J. Cremers
Kenneth L. Edwards
George Ritchie Latham, Jr.
Valerie Scopaz, Town Planner
Craig Turner, Planner
Robed G. Kassner, Site Plan Reviewer
Carol Kalin, Secretary
Mr. Orlowskil Good evening. I'd like to call this meeting to order. The first order of
business is fbr the Board to set Monday, October 23, 2000, at 6:00 p.m. at the
Southold Town Hall, Main Road, Southold, as the time and place for the next regular
Planning Board Meeting.
Mr. Cremers; So move.
Mr. Edwardsi Second.
Mr. Odowskii Motion made and seconded. All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Oriowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski Opposed? Motion carries.
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa,qe Two
October 2, 2000
PUBLIC HEARINGS
Subdivisions:
Mr. Orlowski: 6:00 p.m. - HolzapfeI-O'ConnoflLeudesdorf - This proposed lot line
change is to subtract. 15 of an acre from a 6.38 acre parcel, SCTM#1000-26-2-42.1,
and add it to a .30 acre parcel, SCTM#1000-26-2-41. The property is located on King
Street in Orient.
I'll ask if there are any comments on this lot line change. Hearing none, are there any
questions from the Board? Since there are no questions, I'll entertain a motion to close
the hearing.
Mr. Cremers: So move.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries. (The hearing was adjourned at 6:04 p.m.)
What is the pleasure of the Board?
Mr. Cremers: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following:
WHEREAS, John and Joyce Hotzapfel are the owners of the properties known and
designated as SCTM#1000-26-2-42.1, and Diane O'Connor and Carol Leudesdorf are
the owners of the property known and designated as SCTM#1000-26-2-41, both located
on King Street in Orient; and
WHEREAS, this proposed lot tine change is to subtract. 15 of an acre from a 6.38 acre
parcel, SCTM#1000-26-2-42.1, and add it to a .30 acre parcel, SCTM#1000-26-2-41;
and
WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, pursuant to the State Environmental
Quality Review Act, (Article 8), Part 617, did an uncoordinated review of this unlisted
action, made a determination of non-significance and granted a Negative Declaration on
September 11, 2000; and
WHEREAS, a final public hearing was closed on said subdivision application at the
Town Hall, Southold, New York on October 2, 2000; and
Southold Town Planning Board
.Page Three
October 2, 20CL.O
WHEREAS, the $outhold Town Planning Board, pursuant to Chapter 58, Notice of
Public Hearing, has received affidavits that the applicant has complied with the
notification provisions; and
WHEREAS, all the requirements of the Subdivision Regulations of the Town of Southold
have been met; be it therefore
RESOLVED, that the Southold Town Planning Board grant conditional final approval on
the surveys, dated August 22, 2000, and authorize the Chairman to endorse the final
surveys subject to fulfillment of the following condition. This condition must be met
within six (6) months of the resolution.
The filing of new deeds pertaining to the merger of. 15 of an acre from a 6.38
acre parcel, SCTM#1000-26-2-42.1, and adding it to a .30 acre parcel,
SCTM#1000-26-2-41.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Oriowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
I'm going to move past Cross Sound Ferry because i believe a lot of you people are
here for it. I'm going to try to finish as much of the agenda as I can before 6:15 p.m.
Hearings Held Over From Previous Meetings:
Mr. Orlowski: Summit Estates, Section 4 - Section 4 of this major subdivision is for
one 4.3739 acre lot (Lot #33). The property is located off Shipyard Lane in East Marion.
SCTM#1000-38-7-p/o 10 (a.k.a. SCTM#1000-35-8-5.3)
The hearing is still open. I'm ready to close the hearing. Are there any comments or
questions on this Summit Estates Subdivision? Hearing none, any questions from thE;
Board? Good - I'll entertain a motion to close the hearing.
Mr. Cremers: So move.
Mr. Caaaiano: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. All those in favor?
Southold Town Planninq Board
Page Four
October 2, 2000
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
What is the pleasure of the Board?
Mr. Ca_Q_oiano: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following resolution:
WHEREAS, Gusmar Realty Corp. and Peter Mourkakos are the owners of the property
known and designated as SCTM#1000-35-8-(5.4-5.18) & 38-7-(8-12) and 1000-38-7-p/o
10 (a.k.a. SCTM#1000-35-8-5.3), located off Shipyard Lane in East Marion; and
WHEREAS, this proposed subdivision, to be known as Summit Estates, Section 4, is for
one 4.3739 acre lot; and
WHEREAS, in 1989, Gusmar Realty Corp. made an application to the Planning Board
for a major subdivision of 35 lots on 40.822 acres to be known as Summit Estates; and
WHEREAS, after the Planning Board granted preliminary approval to the subdivision
application, the Planning Board allowed the applicant to proceed with the final
submission in four separate sections (Section 1: Lots 1-10, Section 2: Lots 11-23,
Section 3: Lots 24-32 and Lots 34-35 and Section 4: Lot 33); and
WHEREAS, the Planning Board granted final approval to Summit Estates, Section 1, on
October 4, 1993; and
WHEREAS, Summit Estates, Section 1, contained 10 lots on 17.5036 acres, in addition
to three (3) parcels of Open Space (Parcel A, Parcel B, and Parcel C) and one (1)
parcel for a Park and Recreation Area (Parcel D), all subject to covenants and
restrictions contained in a Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions recorded as par'[ of
the subdivision approval; and
WHEREAS, Condition Number 11 of the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions for
Summit Estates reads as follows:
"The dock, and any further expansion of such, cannot be conveyed separately
from Lot No. 33 except by permission of the Southold Town Planning Board after
a public hearing, and if such conveyance shall be allowed, it shall be to the
owner(s) of the park and recreation area only."; and
WHEREAS, Lot No. 33 is the proposed lot which is now known as the pending
application for Summit Estates, Section 4; and
WHEREAS, the applicant asked the Planning Board to grant approval to Section 4, prior
to granting approval to Sections 2 and 3; and
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Five
October 2, 2000
WHEREAS, the applicant presented the information required to proceed with Section 4;
and
WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, after holding a public hearing, allowed
the ownership of the dock to be conveyed to the Homeowners Association subject to
five (5) conditions; and
WHEREAS, the Planning Board has received notification that a revised Declaration of
Covenants and Restrictions has been recorded, that a revised Homeowners Association
Offering Plan has been recorded, and that the Town Tax Assessors have been notified
of the change in ownership of the dock, all in accordance with the conditions of
approval; and
WHEREAS, the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions filed on the property
confines docking or mooring to the "T" portion (the section that is parallel to the
shoreline) of the dock in accordance with the conditions set by the Planning Board for
the transfer of dock ownership to the Homeowners Association; and
WHEREAS, the Planning Board recognizes that the dock is owned by the Homeowners
Association, and not the individual members of the Homeowners Association, in
accordance with the interpretation of Article Ill, Section 100-3!C(3) of the Zoning Code
by the Zoning Board of Appeals in a decision rendered on May 11, 1993 (Appl. No.
4156); and,
WHEREAS, only boats owned by the Homeowners Association, and not the individual
members of the Homeowners Association, are allowed to use the dock for docking or
mooring purposes, with the exception of up to two boats belonging to other owners
which may also use the dock, in accordance with Article Ill, Section 100-31C(3)(a) of
the Zoning Code; and
WHEREAS, the authority to reserve or not reserve space for up to two other boats
belongs to the Homeowners Association; and
WHEREAS, it is the responsibility of the Homeowners Association to decide which boat
gets to dock in the allotted space, if any is reserved; and
WHEREAS, the number of boats owned by the Homeowners Association that use the;
T-portion of the dock is not limited at this time by any section of Town Code but is
limited by the amount of space available; and
WHEREAS, a final public hearing was closed on said subdivision application at the
Town Hall, Southold, New York on October 2, 2000; and
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Six
October 2, 2000
WHEREAS, the Southold Town Planning Board, pursuant to Chapter 58, Notice of
Public Hearing, has received affidavits that the applicant has complied with the
notification provisions; and
WHEREAS, all the requirements of the Subdivision Regulations of the Town of Southold
have been met; be it therefore
RESOLVED, that the Southold Town Planning Board approve and authorize the
Chairman to endorse the final surveys dated April 9, 1999.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. O______rlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. OrloWski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
~IAJOR AND MINOR SUBDIVISIONS, LOT L~NE CHANGES AND SET
OFF APPLICATIONS
Setting of Final Hearings:
Mr. Orlowski: Dickerson-Steadman - This proposed lot line change is to subtract 8,465
sq. ft. from a 9.52 acre parcel, SCTM#1000-122-2-24, and add it to an 11,272 sq. ft.
parcel, SCTM#1000-122-2-6. The property is located on Sound Avenue in Mattituck.
Mr. Cremers: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following:
BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State
Environmental Quality Review Act, do an uncoordinated review of this unlisted action.
The Planning Board establishes itself as lead agency, and as lead agency, makes a
determination of non-significance and grants a Negative Declaration.
Mr. Edwards: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Seven
October 2, 2000
Mr. Cremers: In addition-
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board set Monday,
October 23, at 6:00 p.m. for a final public hearing on the maps dated August 23, 2000.
Mr. Edwards: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favo~
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Mr. Orlowski: Harry & Lorraine Broom - This proposed lot line change is to divide an
1 t ,517 sq. ft. parcel, SCTM#1000-10-3-25, between a 1,826 sq..ft, parcel, SCTM#1000-
10-13-14, and an 8,748 sq. ft. parcel, SCTM#1000-10-3-15. 9,185 will be added to the
1,826 sq. ft. parcel, and 2,332 sq. ft. will be added to the 8,748 sq. ft. parcel. The
property is located on Peninsula Road, Fishers Island.
Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following resolution:
BE ~T RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State
Environmental Quality Review Act, do an uncoordinated review of this unlisted action.
The Planning Board establishes itself as lead agency, and as lead agency, makes a
determination of non-significance and grants a Negative Declaration.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. Odowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Mr. Edwards: In addition-
BE iT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board set Monday,
October 23, at 6:05 p.m. for a final public hearing on the maps dated July 28, 2000.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Ei.~ht
October 2, 2000
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Mr. Orlowski: Terry-Wysocki - This proposal is to set-off a 1.84 acre parcel (Lot #1 )
from a 32.33 acre parcel. The remaining parcel (Lot #2) is 30.49 acres on which the
Town has purchased the development rights on 28.65 acres. The property is located on
the north side of Main Road in Orient. SCTM#1000-20-!-(3.2-3.4)
Mr. Latham: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to offer this:
BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board set Monday, October 23, at
6:10 p.m. for a final public hearing on the maps dated September 5, 2000.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?.
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Sketch Extensions:
Mr. Orlowski: Paradise Isles - This proposed minor subdivision is for 4 lots on 30.619
acres located on the north side of Island View Lane; 234.18 feet west of Bayshore Road
and on the south side of August Lane in Southold. SCTM#1000-53-6-46.2 and 57-2-1.1
Mr. Cremers: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following:
BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board grant a retro-active six-
month extension of sketch approval from September 17, 2000 to March 17, 2001.
Conditional sketch approval was granted on September 15, 1997.
Mr. Caaaiano: Second the motion.
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa.qe Nine
October 2, 200,0_
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Review of Reports:
Mr. Orlowski: Cove Beach Estates - This proposed subdivision is for 13 ~ots on 105.3
acres, north of Main Road and west of Dam Pond in East Marion, SCTM#1000-22-3-
9.1, 18.7 & 18.8
Mr. Latham: Mr. Chairman, !'11 offer this:
RESOLVED, to adopt the Engineer's Report, dated September 7, 2000, with the
following clarification:
The Planning Board does not expect the applicant to construct the tap road.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
Mr. Latham: Further-
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, to adopt the Bond Estimate, dated as revised September
7, 2000, and to recommend same to the Town Board. The Bond Estimate is in the
amount of $445,160.00, with an inspection fee in the amount of $26,709.60.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So ordered.
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa.qe Ten
October 2, 2000
SITE PLANS - STATE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY REVIEW ACT
Determinations:
Mr. Orlowski: Buccaneer Books - This proposed site plan is for an 8,580 square foot
office and storage building and two 9,000 square foot storage buildings on a 3.167 acre
site on Route 48 (a.k.a. North Road, Middle Road) in Southold. SCTM#1000-55-5-2.4
Mr. Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I'll offer the following resolution:
BE IT RESOLVED that the Southold Town Planning Board, acting under the State
Environmental Quality Review Act, establishes itself as lead agency, and as lead
agency, makes a determination of non-significance and grants a Negative Declaration.
Mr. Cremers: Second the motion.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on the motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
PUBLIC HEARINGS (continued)
Site Plans:
Mr. Orlowski: 6:15 p.m. - Cross Sound Ferry - This proposed new site plan is to
amend the June 6, 1995 site plan for the Cross Sound Ferry Company Terminal. The.
subject site encompasses three parcels located on the west and east sides of SR 25 at
its eastern-most terminus in Orient. SCTM#1000-15-9-10.1 and 11.1 and 15.1
Just for starters, this has been a long time to get here. We've been in litigation for five or
six years. I know the big question out there has been: "Why hold the hearing with a
conceptual plan?" The Board felt that we would like to get this document out into the
open and have public comment like ! see we're going to have tonight. The SEQRA
process is going on. This is a brand new application. It's a brand new SEQRA
application. It's going through the coordination process right now. You can comment on
that right now if you'd like. We're here to listen. This hearing will not be closed tonight. ~t
will be held open until SEQRA is complete and until the site plan itself is written to
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Eleven
October 2, 2000
Code. Right now, the applicant can start. When you come up to the microphone, please
state your name for the record so the secretary can get it.
Richard Warren, Interscience Research Associates on behalf of Cross Sound Ferry
Services: The site plan application, which is subject to the hearing tonight, was
submitted in June of this year and represents a continuing effort on the part of Cross
Sound Ferry Services to resolve the matter cooperatively with the Town of Southold.
When my office first started with this application over four years ago, it was on a
different application - something completely different from what you have before you
tonight. The project at that time required a change of zone for a part of the Town that
included the utilization of a piece of property that is known as the "Trust Parcel" to the
east of the property that is currently before you tonight. That parcel was then, and is still
now, residentially zoned. That application drew significant opposition from the public
and prompted the requirement of a draft Environmental Impact Statement. After years of
going back and forth between the Town and the applicant with this, that application was
withdrawn. The project has been redesigned and it now contains solely what is
commonly known as the "Snack Bar Parcel". This new application was filed and it is the
subject of this hearing tonight. Even after the latest submission was made in June,
we've worked back and forth with the Town to try to refine the details that you have here
tonight. The latest plans that were submitted on September 8th represent what, we
believe, is a compromise in order to settle this matter. No one at the table is really
happy. I think that's probably fair to say. The Planning Board isn't completely happy with
what is before you and I don't think the applicant is completely happy with what is
before you, but it's an attempt to try to find some common ground to try to resolve this
matter that's been going on for a long time. This application proposes no improvement
to the easterly parcel with the exception of the planting of some landscaping. The over-
all site consists of three parcels totally a little over four acres and the project site lies
within the Marine il Zoning District. It's not residential like the property next door. in
general, this application looks to make site improvements to what's known as the
"Snack Bar Parcel" where the pre-existing parking occurs, in general, the plan that you
have up on the Board that has been prepared by my office, defines the parking area on
all four sides with a combination of guardrail fencing and railroad tie curb stops. It
eliminates the potential for encroachment onto other parcels. It enhances landscape
buffering adjacent to the parking area. It improves the parking surface by grading it and
covering it with a stone surface so that it's better for patrons using it and it provides fl~r
better pedestrian safety. In particular, to go through the site plan in more detail, curb
stops are proposed. Curb stops, which would be either telephone poles or railroad ties
anchored to the ground, are proposed on the northern, western and southern borders.
Along the eastern border, a wooden or metal guardrail is proposed along the length of
the eastern border. The parking lot would be graded to eliminate the depressions and
stone and gravel would be applied to the surface thereby providing a permeable surface
for drainage and also an all-weather surface. The existing vegetation around the
perimeter of the property would be enhanced and inventory would be undertaken of
what occurs there now. We would provide a landscape plan for the Planning Board to
review. Some Iow-level lighting would be proposed for safety of the pedestrians and the
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa,qe Twelve
October 2, 200,0
patrons that utilize the site only during the evening hours of operation. They would be
shut off one-half an hour after the last ferry arrives at the site. The plan also shows a
crosswalk that's striped from the snack bar building across to the ferry terminal to also
help with pedestrian safety.
With the submittal that we made to the Planning Board, Cross Sound Ferry also
committed to some operational improvements - at least one parking attendant to assist
during all peak times, during summer and winter holiday weekends - to assist travelers,
when necessary, to get their vehicles out of the parking lot. During the discussions that
we had with the Board, there were some concerns about people that may not have
been able to maneuver out of the parking lot easily. Cross Sound has made a
commitment to make that better for people using it. An attendant would remain on the
site for at least one-half an hour after the last ferry arrives in order to help those patrons.
Cross Sound would also consider a reservation system for parking. They would
investigate establishing a system for reservation of parking for travelers using the high-
speed service and allow for advance notice for the needs of parking so that they can
better plan the day's parking on the site.
Parking and traffic are the major issues surrounding this application. Cross Sound
Ferry, in the submittal to the Board from June, has provided information on how they
intend to also investigate other areas in terms of long-term operation of the Orient Point
facility. They intend to investigate areas outside of Orient for additional parking,
investigate bus and rail links so that parking outside of Orient can be successful using
some type of mass transportation. They'll continue to investigate an out-of-area ferry
landing site on Long Island. They'll work with the Town and the State Department of
Transportation on the re-arrangement and reconfiguration of the terminus of Route 25
with an integrated plan with Cross Sound Ferry operations.
In conclusion, this hasn't been an easy task for any of us - the Town or the applicant.
The plan before you tonight is a conceptual drawing, prepared by my office with the
planners - we're not engineers; we're not surveyors. It's understood by all of us - the
Planning Board, the applicant - that, if this plan moves forward, prior to any action you
will have a formal, engineered site plan and all the information that meets the Code
requirements. You will also have details of the proposed lighting on the site and a formal
landscape plan submitted. We hope that this plan and the problems that we've been
through can secure some consensus with the Town to try to allow resolution of this
difficult matter. We've been working back and forth in an attempt to settle it. There have
been many meetings, numerous plan changes, site inspections, investigations with
other agencies. We believe the plan is a reasonable compromise. It's kind of like having
a lot of lemons and trying to make lemonade from them. We think that here's a plan
where, again - not everyone around the table on either side is happy with it - but, we
think it's a reasonable compromise in order to resolve this matter. I know that there are
a lot of people here who want to be heard tonight. I'm here; both of the Wronowski's are
here from Cross Sound Ferry. We're here to listen and we will respond as appropriate.
Thank you.
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Thi~een
October 2, 2000
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Howard Meinke, President, North Fork Environmental Council: We thank you for an
opportunity to speak on this issue. I remember well a meeting or hearing similar to this
one that I attended three or four years ago. At that meeting, I was disappointed at thE;
stance of Southold Town, vis-a-vis the Cross Sound Ferry, and ! knew that this matter
was going to be with us for a long time. At that meeting, Southold Attorney, Yakaboski,
summarily refused an offer of legal support volunteered by Southold Citizens for Safe
Roads with the following telling comment: "We, (meaning Southold Town), cannot ally
ourselves with a special interest". Now, special interest, phooey. Citizens for Safe
Roads, Southold Citizens - that's us, that's you. That bothered us then and it still does.
Now here we are three or four years later attending a public hearing to speak to a site
plan submission by Cross Sound Ferry. The submission is incomplete and designed to
achieve some sort of preliminary approval for a concept that will expand and morph
over time to justify whatever the Ferry seeks. The number of cars to be parked, a very'
significant factor it seems to us, is stated to appear in the Narrative Section. It doesn't.
Veiled reference to pre-existing parking usage on the Snack Bar Property is designecl to
justify whatever form of dense parking that Cross Sound can conjure. Send them back
to the drawing board. This submission, in our view, fails. There should be no public
hearing until they get it right. The passenger ferry parking is for the sole benefit of Cross
Sound and the Connecticut casinos, while bringing SouthoJd hoards of thundering traffic
and emissions and pollution and the occasional accident. It is is obvious that a Full
Environmental Impact Statement is required before anything else is undertaken. The
repercussions of the Ferry's increasing activity on Southold are real. Note in our local
paper they speak to a DOT plan in Greenport to eliminate some on-street parking and
widened lanes to increase the speed and flow of traffic on Front Street. This is not what
the Greenport citizens and businesses want; it is simply a government reaction to traffic
friction. I bring this up because of ferry traffic - as ferry traffic increases we become a
target of DOT plans to widen and modify Route 25 in East Marion and Orient. There go
our trees, front yards and quality of life. Public safety is a powerful excuse. This traffic
issue is not an Orient-East Marion problem; it's a North Fork problem, if we don't control
traffic opportunity by opportunity, we all lose. Thank you very much.
Freddie Wachsber.qer, Southold Citizens for Safe Roads: This feels a little bit like the
Twilight Zone. I'm going to make three points. Southold Citizens agrees that this
application is incomplete, lacking detail and it's 'insufficient for determination or for
adequate public review. Furthermore, the evidence presented for pre-existing parking
on the Snack Bar Lot is certainly inadequate to the proposed usage of commercial
parking lot. And third, although you're talking about a SEQRA, this action was circulated
as "Unlisted" and there's no way that a Negative Declaration should be considered for
this proposal.
I'd like to address the last point first. In 1995, the Planning Board correctly resolved tlhat
operation of the new passenger ferry service and the resulting use of the Snack Bar
Parcel for passenger parking required a comprehensive site plan and subsequently
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Fourteen
October 2, 2000
made a determination that it was a "Type I Action" requiring an Environmental Impact
Statement. Cross Sound filed three legal challenges to the Planning Board and lost
each one. The Court found that the Planning Board was entirely within its' rights to do
this and, in fact, this Type I Determination was supported by all the respondents, County
and State, to the Scoping Outline. I and other members of Southold Citizens for Safe
Roads attended the Scoping Session; we reviewed a submitted Environmental Impact
Statement. We reviewed the site plan. We prepared responses with the final submission
of the impact statement and everything was ready to proceed according to due process
under State Law. And now, here we are suddenly three years later, and we're back with
this incomplete plan. All of that time the option was open to the Planning Board to go
back to the Court and ask the Court to require Cross Sound to come in with the Final
ElS and to submit to SEQRA review, to the kind of public scrutiny that Cross Sound and
that site never underwent - in 1984 the Orient Association asked that when building
their new facility that there should be an Environmental Review at that time - that it
didn't have. But, here was the opportunity finally - this huge operation - to think that it
never underwent any Environmental Review under SEQRA is ridiculous. So, here we
were, all poised to do that and you had all the legal backing to do that - you had the
support of the Court to do that and we were all ready to go forward and suddenly we're
back with this attempt to segment the proposal, to look only at these two parking lots
which under State Law is segmentation and SEQRA specifically mandates against that.
SEQRA insists that the entire operation be considered. It looks to us as though this plan
is simply an attempt to legalize what Cross Sound -the violations that Cross Sound has
already been for several years committing on that site, mainly parking on the Snack Bar
Property which is a violation of the existing site plan design, by dumping spoils on the
residential property which is a violation of existing zoning, and that this is simply an
attempt - not only to legalize all of that illegal action but also to do it without the publiic
scrutiny that is attendant on the SEQRA Review.
Now, when Planning Board found that it was the increased volume of traffic and
increased pollution and all of these attendant problems that attended on the introduction
of the passenger ferry and the parking for the passenger ferry, that finding still exists if
we're talking about this parking. This is still passenger ferry parking whether or not the
Trust Parcel is included in this particular offering is undoubtedly it will be later if not now
- whether or not it's included, the parking that we're talking about here, is still parking
attendant on the passenger ferry, specifically that was determined to require a Type ~
designation. It's, therefore, impossible for us to understand why you have circulated this
as an Unlisted Action and ~ don't see how the Planning Board could possibly
contemplate a Negative Declaration - contemplate any kind of consideration of this plan
without a Full Environmental Review because this is for parking attendant upon
introduction and increased volume due to the passenger ferry.
Now, in relationship to the pre-existing parking, nobody has said today and nobody has
included on the plan that was submitted and circulated, how many cars Cross Sound
would like to place on that lot, the Snack Bar Lot. But, on the previously submitted plan
last year, the number of cars that are shown on that lot are 235 with the option of
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa,qe Fifteen
October 2, 2000
denser parking with assisted parking, with denser parking during peak times. Now, the
evidence for pre-existing parking before zoning regulations went in, in 1957 I believe it
was, we have - i have a copy here, one affidavit that says "From time to time we had
occasion to park our vehicles and the vehicles of our employees east of the north/south
extension of the present State Highway on the site of the present parking area now
employed by patrons of Cross Sound Ferry". "From time to time we had occasions to
park our vehicles." I understand that there's a photograph that shows seven or eight
cars on that property. Now, I don't think any reasonable person would accept that
occasional parking of seven or eight cars is pre-existing parking which justifies a
commercial parking lot of more than two hundred cars. I mean that doesn't make sense.
I don't see how anybody could accept that as a pre-existing situation.
Excuse me for pausing because I'm trying to keep a lot of different aspects in my mind
here.
Mr. Orlowski: That's o.k.
Ms. Wachber,qer: I think I've said the jist of what I wanted to say. ! might remember
some other point I want to make and pop up, if ! may, some time later. I think that's kind
of the summation of the Citizens for Safe Road's attitude about this. This action should,
in no way, be unlisted. It is still a Type ! designation. Even by the non-subjective criteria,
even by objective criteria under SEQRA legislation - the very fact that it's next to a
public park and involves the transformation of forty percent of what they call the
threshold of ten acres because it's a four acre proposition. The threshold is ten acres so
if it's above two and one half percent of that ten acres that's being transformed, it's
automatically a Type I designation. So, there's no way, in our view, that this can
possibly be a Negative Declaration. There's no way, in our view, that the evidence
presented for pre-existing parking validates this proposal. And thirdly, this is an
incomplete application and any subsequent submissions by Cross Sound should
equally come before the public as this has tonight. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Are there any other comments?
Eric Bressler, Esq.: Members of the Board, I am the attorney for Southold Citizens fol'
Safe Roads. I am here to speak on behalf of Southold Citizens for Safe Roads as to this
purported conceptual site plan. I must say, in my review of the documentation, the word
that leaped into my mind was chameleon. This whole application is chameleon-like. I
think, in all fairness, kudos have to be given to my colleague, sitting across the way in
the blue suit who engineered this. He's very good at this sort of thing. What we have
here tonight is yet another chameleon-like appearance of this application before the
Board. I don't know what this Board must be thinking when it looks at that conceptual
site plan. Are you folks seeing the same thing that we're seeing? Are you thinking about
the same thing that led you to say in July of '95 that the operation of the new ferry
service and the resulting use of the Snack Bar Parcel as a parking lot for customers of
the new service required a revised site plan approval and was a Type ! Action? is that
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Sixteen
October 2, 2000
what you're looking at? It's got to be. That's what we see - nothing has changed except
one thing. The ferry snookered you once and they're trying to do it again. We all know
what happened as to that west side parcel. We all know the embarrassment of going in
front of you with the Zoning Board of Appeals and how everybody felt when the high
speed ferry came in virtually the next day and everybody looked at one another and
said "Wow, I wonder how they were able to do that". And the answer was very simple:
They piecemealed it, just like they're proposing to do here. It worked once and this
Board properly said it's not going to work again, declared it Type ! and said we want a
comprehensive site plan. They've come before you tonight saying "We've worked very
hard to compromise". Well, this is some compromise, I must say.
Let's see what the compromises are. Well, it's smaller in scope. Yes, that's a
compromise. It's now an Unlisted Action. We don't have to go through the whole
process. That's certainly one for their side. We don't have to tell you everything that
we're going to do right now like you wanted us to. That's certainly one for their side. \Ne
don't have to tell you exactly what we're going to do with the parcel - we'll tell you that a
little bit later. There's one for their side. What kind of compromise is this? What are we
doing - are we discontinuing litigation that was properly brought in the first instance? I
quote the esteemed Francis J. Yakaboski, who's also with us tonight - a man of some
erudition when it comes to Town matters - who stated that Cross Sound has apparently
adopted the position that applications pending before the ZBA and the Planning Board
only applied for proposed parking on the Trust Parcel - that these applications were
simply filed as a normal business move and that SEQRA Review should focus solely on
the parking lot. This defies reason, is contradictory to the record and is contrary to the
definition of action subject to SEQRA Review. Although it pains me sometimes to admit
it, he was right. And he's still right. This is merely part of a piecemeal application. Do
you think these guys are done? I don't think so. Is this everything? Does it address the
problems of parking and traffic without even a full SEQRA Review? I don't know what
you people must be thinking. And what about the underpinning for this application? Pre-
existing. There's pre-existing parking. Why is it pre-existing? Because they say so. They
were supposed to address it in 1984. They didn't. They were supposed to address it in
1995. They didn't. And now they're back before you with the novel idea that this is pre-
existing. What do they base this pre-existing - that seven or eight cars were parked
there on occasion from time to time. How an official of the Town could opine that that
constituted a pre-existing use, I don't know. I have never been so fortunate as to be
able to advance an argument like that to the Boards of this Town and achieve a
successful result. Perhaps those negative results are isolated in my applications, but i
don't think so. In order to have a pre-existing use, the use must be of a character and
nature similar to that which is being sought. Were there ever 230 cars parked there on a
regular basis? I don't even think we need to think very long about that question. The
answer is no. So, the underpinning of this whole application is rotten. And it fails. So, for
this Board to rely on the fact that parking in the volume sought is and has been
permitted, is simply wrong.
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Seventeen
October 2, 2000_
Now, what should this Board do as a result of what it has before it, this so-called
compromise? What it ought to do is declare it a Type ! Action and it ought to require tlhat
what is going to be done be made clear to everybody, put into the light of day and let
the public see what's being done and comment on it. What this Board should not do is
adopt the discredited method that other Boards have used in the past in permitting this
site to be developed piecemeal. I think further that this Board ought to adopt a
reasoning of Mr. Yakaboski and deal with this as an integrated application. If this Board
does not, under the mistaken notion that somehow this compromise is going to make
the matter go away and come to an end, that would be faulty thinking. It will not come to
an end as a result of exceeding to this type of situation. The Town fought long and hard
in Court to vindicate its positions. It was successful - why it would abandon those
victories and those protections that it fought so hard to get for its citizens, escapes me
and I don't believe that this Board is going to accept this and give away everything that
has been fought for so hard and won.
Mr. Orlowski: Are there any other comments?
Dick Erlich: Mr. Chairman, ! own the Seafood Barge Restaurant. First of all, i thank you
for opening this hearing and soliciting community response. I'm here to speak in support
of the Cross Sound Ferry. I'm trying to think how I would present my argument to the
Board. I started thinking about the contribution and the role that the restaurant itself
plays in this community. We employ between 25 and 40 people at any one time. I made
a count before ! came over here tonight. Presently we have 24 dependent children
residing in the homes of our employees. We collected and made over $100,000. in
sales tax. We collected and made over $160,000. in payroll withholding taxes. Our
employees earn in excess of $560,000. The vast majority of that revenue flows back
into the community. Among the other activities that the restaurant does is we purchase
about $70,000. worth of wine, the vast majority of which is Long Island wine and that
revenue flows directly back into this community also.
I happen to have a little bit of a grip on the role that Cross Sound Ferry has played in
our business because we started advertising in their "Crossings" magazine which is
distributed on the ferry and we coupon there. So at any given time i have a monitor on
the kind of response rates that we generate from the people that have been on that
ferry. Additionally, this winter we did a cross-marketing promotion with the Cross Sound
Ferry that involved a mass mailing throughout this community with couponing also. I
think that directly Cross Sound Ferry probably generates 1%-2% of the revenue of o,ur
restaurant and, indirectly, in support of the tourist economy here and people having
access to the North Fork and from my having been in the dining room and speaking with
people who had no coupons and didn't know we were soliciting with Cross Sound,
hearing that they had been on the ferry, I feel very confident to tell you that without their
activities and similar activities in support of tourism on the North Fork, our restaurant
would not be viable. So, I think I'm speaking for a certain segment of the community that
views their activities and their expansion of the ferry positively. And i would further lik:e
to say that, in the course of a year - perhaps many of you as well do - I've used Cross
Southold Town Planning Board
Pa~e Eighteen
October 2, 200_0
Sound Ferry to Connecticut probably eight or ten times a year, with my family in the car
or on foot on the high speed ferry. I find their service excellent, their facilities well
maintained, the equipment clean and satisfactory and I think that they offer a really
great introduction to the North Fork and to the people who arrive in our community from
New England. I'm very proud to be associated with them and ~ think that they serve us
in very good stead in this community.
Mr. Orlowski: Any other comments?
Re.qinald Miner: I live in Orient. ! didn't expect to be speaking here tonight. Actually, as
most of the people in Orient know, I'm lucky to be here tonight. I've used the Cross
Sound Ferry many, many times and really enjoyed it. I have nothing against the ferry..
The only thing I do have a gripe about is the fact that my wife and I were almost killed
on August 4th in an automobile accident because we could not make a left-hand turn.
The ferry traffic lasted at least three, four minutes - ~ have no idea but we couldn't make
a left and, because we couldn't make a left, a car rammed us in the rear and we were
almost killed. Somehow or another the ferry traffic - and it is ferry traffic - has to be
controlled and one way of controlling it is to regulate the amount of cars that come off
the ferry. Now, if the ferry is going to hold up cars at their parking lot, then they can't use
it for other things. So, maybe something should be taken into account - an area up
there where they can hold cars so they can regulate the amount of cars at one time
coming down the one road that everybody in East Marion and Greenport and Orient
have to travel in order to get to and from their homes. It's not a big thing. ! mean, a
traffic light or somebody standing there with their arms up letting ten cars at a time go
would be one simple way of taking care of it. It's not a big deal but it should be
addressed and that will require some area up there that the ferry has to set aside.
That's one thing that i just feel that should be taken into account. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Thank you.
Bob VanBour,qondien: Good evening, i'm here tonight representing Farm Bureau. Joe
couldn't make it tonight, Ben. The Long Island Farm Bureau, with over 5,700 members
serving the agricultural community on Long Island's East End and the North Fork,
supports Cross Sound Ferry in its efforts to obtain site plan approval before the
Planning Board. Cross Sound Ferry has played a vital role in supporting the agricultural
community on the East End by continually providing reliable, year-round service to
farmers seeking to deliver their products to New England markets. At the beginning o,f
the Twentieth Century, ferry service between Orient Point and New London began, in
part, out of the needs of potato farmers attempting to sell their famous home-grown
products to New England buyers. Today, many farmers and nurserymen, including
many here in Southold, still rely on the Cross Sound Ferry for this very same reason. In
fact, according to New York State Agricultural Statistics Service, approximately 85% of
the seed potatoes used on Long Island potato farms arrive via Cross Sound Ferry from
New England. The transportation linkage and accessibility that Cross Sound Ferry
provides between Orient Point and New England supports the agricultural industry of
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Nineteen
October 2, 2000
this Town and helps preserve the way of life on the East and will lead to the continued
prosperity of the East End agricultural community. The Long Island Farm Bureau urges
you to support Cross Sound Ferry in its efforts to improve service between Orient Point
and New England.
On a personal note, I would also like to say Cross Sound has been very, very important
and instrumental to me in my business and also my fellow greenhouse people. We ship
an enormous amount of products across to New England markets. We cannot compete
as well in the Southern markets but New England is wide-open to us and if the Town -
as the saying goes "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone". When the nursery
people and the greenhouse people on the East End of Long island are gone, you have
lost all of Long Island. Thank you.
Freddie Wachsber,qer, Southold Citizens for Safe Roads: Testimonials are fine and
many of us use the ferry regularly to go to Connecticut on tourism or whatever. This
issue tonight is not about whether there should be a ferry or shouldn't be. It's a question
of due process in State Law and local zoning and all of those issues. It's a question of
how to control your own site and have controlled traffic on your roads and it's a long-
overdue process. Nobody's saying there shouldn't be a ferry. That's not the issue here.
The issue is the amount of parking, how to control the parking, how to control the
expansion. How much expansion is a good thing could be an issue but it's another
issue. It's not tonight's issue. As far as which businesses are served by the ferry, I think
until Southold Town has a responsible marketing survey -which I think it should do in
general, ferry issue or no ferry issue - to talk about what businesses it anticipates
needing over the next five years or ten years, what businesses will survive and which
won't, including what businesses get what kind of benefits from the ferry and which
businesses are impacted negatively by the ferry, how much of somebody's business is
the 1 or 2% that they get from the ferry and how much is the 98% that they get from us
local residents who live here all year. So, while testimonials are fine, ! really think that
the attention should be paid to due process, to zoning, to SEQRA, to State Legislation
and how we can resolve this issue as we had started to do, as you had started very
effectively to do three years ago. The question is, how do we get back there and
continue with that process?
Mr. Orlowski: Are there any other comments?
Ronnie Wacker, Cutcho,que: This doesn't immediately effect me, but I can see that
people that I know who live on the roads in Orient cannot cross the street because of
the traffic that comes from the ferries. There are what - a million people a year coming
from the ferry each year?. This is just ridiculous to impose this upon a small town. We've
worked with this now for how many years and I think it's just a matter of law. Do they
submit to the SEQRA Review as every other project that comes in here does or does it
not? We usually come here in droves like this, a good meeting tonight, to complain
about something that the Planning Board has done or hasn't done. And tonight we're
Southold Town Planning Board
page Twenty
October 2, 2000
here to encourage you to stick to your guns. You said they need to produce or submit
an Environmental Review and so be it. They should, it's law. That's all. Thanks.
Mr. Orlowski: The traffic study is part of the Environmental Review and it will part of that.
Our consultant will review it.
Ann Hopkins, Orient, President of the Orient Association: The Orient Association
actually spawned Southold Citizens for Safe Roads when it became clear that the ferry
issue, which was what the Orient Association was founded on back in 1984, the ferry
traffic issue was so clearly one for all of Southold. I will simply for the record say that I
and the Orient Association Board fully support everything that Howard and Eric and
Freddie have so aptly said but, I do want to say that the ferry was a very important
factor in my settling in Orient because I grew up in the Boston area. i went there
frequently when some of my family were still there. None of us wants to see the ferry
stop. i also think, though, that the people who are giving these testimonials - we should
mention that it is not the high speed ferry that is carrying the farmers goods or even, I
think, the people to the Seafood Barge. I think by and large the people on the high
speed ferry - we call it the gamblers' ferry because it's met by busses that take them to
gamble and then they come back and go home and they roar through here and maybe
they don't even have enough money left to go to the Seafood Barge.
There's one element that i just want to mention that I think hasn't come up so far this
evening which is the question of pollution at the parking lot site, at the whole Cross
Sound Ferry Site, of all kinds including noise pollution, light pollution - I noticed that
Cross Sound's report stresses that these lights will be Iow level and will be turned off at
night, perhaps anticipating that we don't need any more lights out there. The people
who live at the Point can talk to that aspect. There has been a lot of talk about the
trouble with road run-off and parking lots are among the least acceptable form of activity
in the place as fragile and sensitive as the Orient Point area. ! would just like to support
the fact that we need a real full, comprehensive, non-segmented SEQRA Review for
this entire area.
Mr. Orlowski: Any other comments?
Merlon Wi.q.qin: I live on the Main Road in East Marion. All this traffic goes by my house
and I think I'm probably impacted as much as anybody about the traffic that goes by
through East Marion. One thing that I think everybody skirts around is why this traffic
occurs. I don't think it's Cross Sound's doing. I think it's the demand. I want to read to
you from a copy of the "Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity". It says "It is
ordered, that said carrier and is hereby granted this Certificate of Public Convenience. It
is further ordered and made a condition of this certificate that the holder thereof shall
render reasonably continuous and adequate service to the public in pursuance of the
authority herein granted and that failureto do so should constitute sufficient grounds for
suspension, change or revocation of the certificate".
$outhold Town Planning Board
Page Twenty-one
October 2, 2000
Now, if they do not meet the demand, what happens to the certificate? Does a Federal
authority come in and take over- do we want that? ! think we're missing the whole point
of this - if we didn't have the demand, we wouldn't need the additional parking. How do
we reduce the demand? Maybe you could outlaw Foxwoods so it would be illegal to go
to Foxwoods. That would help a lot. Maybe the wineries should not be visited from
Connecticut. ! thought of another thing that would help my traffic. We had a person here
who was advocating boat traffic.., boat traffic instead of by car, that would help a lot too.
if all of these Orient residents would agree to only one round trip a week past my house,
! would agree to going by their house one round trip a week.
Now, how can we reduce the demand? I think we missed one great big point here. As I
understand from asking, there's about 350,000 round trip vehicles that go to Orient
Point on the ferry each year. I also understand that about 30% of those either originate
or go to the Southside. There's been a lot of talk and discussion about why not have a
direct link from New London to the South Side. That could reduce potentially 100,000
vehicles that would not be going by my house. Yet, I don't see anybody proposing that.
don't see the Planning Board proposing that. I don't see the Safe Roads people
proposing that. Why not? isn't that one realistic way to reduce the demand for parking
and also reduce the traffic? It seems like the demand is what's driving this and you're
not addressing what's causing the demand. Thank you.
Freddie Wachsber,qer: Probably everybody knows that -
Mr. Orlowski: Freddie, this is not going to be a debate. Can you hold, maybe, until
everybody is done and then you can make a comment because you could stand up
after every person and we could be here for a while.
Someone else?
Dorothy Burks: ! live in Orient. You're not ready to make a decision on this from the way
things sound. This gentleman - I didn't hear very well everything he said, but he threw
out some alleviated measures such as widening Route 25 and creating satellite bus
stations. It's very interesting, particularly since there's the question of another
reservation and another gambling casino near Stonington. ! think that these things
should not be just thrown out as potential magic thinking but they should actually haw9 a
plan that might make the Cross Sound Ferry more attractive to the people who live
here. Right now I don't know what will happen if they have 300 parking spaces - what
happens when they have 325 cars? It's not a question of the cars who want to come
over from Connecticut to the Seafood Barge because they'll park in front of the Barge.
It's not a question of the people who go over by truck with reservation and don't park on
this side. It's a question of gambling traffic that we haven't resolved and until all of these
plans are resolved, ! don't think you should move any further. Thank you.
Dr. John Rogers: I live on the Main Road in East Marion. My new neighbor, Mr. Wiggin,
aptly described the condition of that Main Road. The thing that I heard this evening,
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Twenty-two
October 2, 2000
early on, the idea of using satellite parking in even as far as New Suffolk - hardly New
Suffolk - but as far west as certainly Southold and other towns where there might be
large areas suitable for parking and not create a problem and then bussing the people
to the ferry would alleviate a lot of the traffic in the summertime certainly when we have
so many cars going exclusively to the casinos. I think the casinos might well like to help
support this kind of thing financially as well. That solution that the attorney for Cross
Sound suggested seems like a very good one, that's one that we had thought about
ourselves. The little bit of land left on this tip end of the North Fork that is slowly being
defiled and turned into parking reminds me of the song that was popular a few years
ago - "They paved Paradise and made it a parking lot". I don't think we should let that
happen. There are better ways and certainly satellite parking seems like a good one
and also, of course, having other ferries from other points on the South Shore or what
have you. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Anyone else?
David Cichanowicz, Southold Business Alliance: I am a resident of Southold. i represent
most of the business people in Southold Town. We wholeheartedly support Cross
Sound Ferry as we feel they are a very well organized, first class operation. Everything
that they've done until now is exactly what I would hope for in my town. You've asked
them as a Planning Board for certain requirements and, ! believe, they've met all of
those requirements and now it's up to you really to make your final decision. Again, I
support them and most of the business community does as well. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Rich Milli,qan: i'm from Orient. I'd like to say that Cross Sound Ferry is in the business; of
making money. Cross Sound Ferry is in the business of making a profit. Cross Sound
Ferry is a company that is based in Connecticut in inter-state commerce and that
company has a responsibility to this community. They know how many ferries they
operate per day. They know how many passengers they carry on their ferries, whether it
be on the car boat or on the passenger. They know how many cars and trucks they
support on their ferries. They know exactly when that parking lot is going to be full. They
take advance reservations. They know when people call. They have a call center. They
have a very good idea, I'm sure, of how many passengers, how many cars, how many
trucks, what specific needs they need at that lot or lots at the east end of Orient Point.
My point is that they have a responsibility to this community and I think that the ladies
and gentlemen on the Planning Board have a responsibility also to this community since
you're here to require that they hold up their end of the deal, to make sure they're
honest, to make sure their intentions are honorable and have them ante up and go
through the full review. Thank you.
Claire Dowlin,q: Hello, i'm from East Marion. Those of us who live between Greenport
and the ferry can speak directly as to the issues that we face. I fully support our
previous speaker. I would like to say that ! went to The Barge and had dinner this
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PaRe Twenty-three
October 2, 2000
summer from East Marion. ! drove from East Marion to The Barge. ! am not in any way
negating the need for the ferry to transport business products and tourists, per say.
What I object to is walking out my door on Shipyard Lane, going up to the Main Road
and taking my life in my hands to try to cross that road. I would like to suggest to any of
you on a weekend - those of you who don't live within ten miles of the ferry - to come
on up and try to ride your bike on the Southold Town sponsored bike paths. I have a
rear view mirror on my bicycle and I'm looking there all the time. There are many times
when that bike path will have cars in it headed right at me. Those cars are going
anywhere from 50 to 55 miles an hour and they are rushing to get to the ferry. This is a
quality of life issue. I am not negating business and the need for business here in
Southold Town to support the people that live in Southold. I am not negating that at all. I
agree with that 100%. I am also talking about a quality of life. ! would say that when I go
out my door and go up to the Main Road, try to make a left-hand turn - and this is not
just in the summertime - this will be when 200 cars will come off the ferry in January at
9:00 or whatever. (Tape change.) I'm just the local person who lives here and I live
within ten miles of the ferry so ! can speak from first-hand experience. I love Southold
Town. I love the quality of life here but I see this Main Road is becoming the
expressway where more than infrequently you'll find 55 mile an hour speed limits on that
road and it is quite dangerous. There will be more accidents. There have been and
there will be more. Car accidents and bikers and even walkers. ! have been afraid for'
my life, getting across that road. So, I would just like to speak for the people who live in
this area. ! think it would impact all of Southold Town, not just those of us ten miles from
the ferry. So, I agree with the previous speaker and those speakers who say "Let's get a
hold on this before this is another thruway". Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Thank you.
James Douglass: I'm from Orient and I've lived here 53 years this year. I was born and
bred here. We started with the ferry company in 1948 taking produce from here to New
England. Back then they had LSMs. They only carried 24 vehicles. And, yes, back then
we had 7 cars or more sitting in parking areas around the facility. As long as I've been
an Orient resident, I have a harder time in the summer coming down Village Lane than I
do getting onto the Main Road. Now as far as the parking area, I think the beautification
of that area, cleaning it up and putting in a decent parking lot there where the cars can
get off the road and not be parked up along the main highway along the Department of
Agriculture, will be of benefit to everybody. And that would stop some of the accidents
that we're having. Maybe they can modify the flow of traffic off the boats but, like I say, !
have a harder time going down Village Lane. Thank you.
Janet Douglass: I've lived in Orient for the past 23 years and my family, as you've just
heard, has lived here for decades before that. I'm one of the few people here who've
had the pleasure of experiencing both sides of the ferry's saga. I'm a resident of this
community and a previous employee. As residents, my family has relied on the ferry fOr
transportation between New England and Orient, whether it was a trip to Mystic or the
Big E or simply to visit my relatives. Cross Sound has always been there for me. Their
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Twenty-four
October 2, 2000
ferry became a greater part of my life when it came time to go to college. I was
undecided about a major but was fortunate enough to receive a partial grant from the
University of Rhode Island ~ a school that offered a wide range of studies for students
like myself who are undeclared. From previous experience with my older sister who
attended the University of Delaware, my parents were leery of me going south to
school. This is shared by anyone who has the unfortunate luck of being stuck on the
L.I.E. on a holiday weekend. After visiting U.RI., ! fell in love with the college and
applied for early admissions. Cross Sound made it feasible and realistic for me to attend
the college of my choice. When it came time to find summer employment to help me
pay for school, Cross Sound was there for me once again. They gave me the
opportunity to not only work summers but also to earn a little money during the holidays
when I came home to visit my family. I enjoyed working with my fellow employees and
the experience of dealing with the public on a daily basis. After graduation, I returned
back to Orient and continued my job search. Cross Sound was extremely flexible. They
helped me arrange my work schedule around job interviews and still gave me the hours
I needed to pay my bills. Then the time came - an employer's worst nightmare - to have
one of their employees leave just days before Labor Day Weekend and all of us know
it's one of the busiest weekends of the businesses in the community but the ferry did not
complain. Instead they gave me a glowing recommendation and wished me the best of
luck.
Although my use of the ferry has now decreased, it has increased for the rest of my
family. My younger sister uses their services to travel back and forth to college. She
now attends Roger Williams University in Bristol, Rhode Island and returns on holidays
to work and spend time with the family. My relatives also use the ferry service to visit rny
grandfather who is in Greenport and does not have the physical ability to visit them. And
when my grandmother died this past summer, Cross Sound Ferry enabled my uncle to
be here within hours of her passing because of the fast ferry.
Cross Sound has been a vital aspect of my life and of the community's as well. It
provided employment opportunities, transportation service and gave back to the
community in other ways as well. For example, they take out advertisements in the high
school year book to help finance its production and raise money with its fireworks cruise
for local charities. Cross Sound was a good neighbor to my family and the community,
and has been so for years and, hopefully, many more to come. I am in support of the
ferry's efforts to further improve its services which entails getting the Planning Board's
approval of the Cross Sound site plan. Thank you.
Robert Jenkins, Greenport/Southold Chamber of Commerce: "Dear Mr. Chairman and
Planning Board Members: We, the Greenport/Southold Chamber of Commerce, serving
over 200 members of the business community, urge the Planning Board to come to an
agreement with the site plan application for Cross Sound Ferry. Cross Sound Ferry has
been a member of this community for decades. They provide reliable, safe and efficient
transportation between Southold and New England which benefits all our residents, our
businesses and visitors. They employ Southold residents; they pay taxes and they
Southold Town Planning Board
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October 2, 2000
patronize our local vendors. Their work on behalf of numerous charitable organizations
in Southold Town is well documented and should be commended. Cross Sound Ferry
and the future of ferry services between Southold Town and New England is important
to all residents and members of this business community. We urge the Planning Board
to resolve Cross Sound Ferry's site plan application. Sincerely, Greenport/Southold
Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors." I'd like to give you a copy.
Jackie Ro,qers: I've lived on the Main Road in East Marion for thirty some years and I've
watched the development of the area and Cross Sound Ferry and ! like Cross Sound
Ferry very, very much, I think these wonderful statements that these people are making
about using it for their personal use and for their trucking and for their business is
wonderful. We welcome that and we've enjoyed it ourselves. That isn't the issue,
though, I don't think from what I see here tonight. Watching the traffic when we try to get
out of our driveway - it isn't just traffic that's coming from the ferries that's of concern;
it's the ones that are going to the ferries and that's often faster than the ones that are
coming from. At twenty of the hour, every hour, we have to wait fifteen minutes before
we can get out of our driveway because they are going to the ferry and I do think that
that's worth considering because, in fact, the whole question revolves around the quality
of life here - we treasure this precious area. This is so special, it's so magic - that if we
get a superhighway going out to the end - if we have traffic of people just rushing out
and rushing back, if we spoil all that we hold so dear because we want to accommodate
this other traffic that can go somewhere else, come out of some other area, be dealt
with in some other reasonable way, then we can preserve this wonderful, magic area
that we ali love so much and I urge you, please to consider that quality. Thank you.
Barbara Summers, Executive Director, North Fork Women's Resource Center: I just
would like to make an observation. You people sitting up there really need the "Wisdom
of Solomon" for this. I've been watching this for years and both sides have a very
interesting perception of this problem. You people are the Founding Fathers and the
Founding Women of the next millineum. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. ! can speak
to the integrity of the ferry because they've helped the North Fork Women's Resource;
Center on many occasions when some others wouldn't and there are programs that run
in our schools because of these people. On the other hand, i also agree that the people
of the community are important and we need to have the wisdom to protect the people
and our quality of life and you also need to have the wisdom to assist this wonderful
company and there is a growing demand and we have to face that and it's going to be
here. What I ask is that you have the wisdom to look at the problem, to see what's
coming and make the best solution for all involved, if you can do that, then maybe
everyone can go home happy. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Thank you. Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Bob Gordon: Good evening. I'm a 40 year resident of Orient. I have a very simple thing
to suggest to you. The key part of the problem that you're facing comes after the
parking. It's what happens on the road. It's the traffic to the ferry and the traffic from the
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October 2, 2000
ferry that's both the problem and a physical danger to the residents of your community.
So, ! think that any solution that's suggested by the Cross Sound Ferry, and that's
accepted by you, has got to deal in detail with how you're going to deal with this traffic.
The traffic has been super heavy for the last few years so it doesn't require additional
parking to indicate that there's going to be a problem. There is a problem. Past history
indicates it. The accident last August is proof of it and I don't think there's any fault to be
laid at the ferry's door because the ferry is an essential part of our community and we all
use it and we all depend on it. But, i do hope that when this particular process
continues, the ferry will take a more active part in helping you to determine how to deal
with that traffic, whether it's satellite stations or traffic lights on the way, or whatever.
Something's got to be done about that and I think together you can do it and we all hope
that you will. Thank you very much.
Ann Taylor-Davis: Hi, there. I've lived in Orient for the last 15 years and, before that, in
Nassau Point, which doesn't exactly make me a Founder but somebody who has
appreciated this land and appreciated the beauty that is here. ~ simply would like to urge
you, respectfully, to please consider for fact of public scrutiny and that this plan, at least
in my understanding of the issues, needs to be open to public scrutiny. I also urge you
to consider the fact with a vision - what is this land going to look like in 2050 and 21007
That is really a great, great responsibility on all of our shoulders and the ferry is part of it
and also our vision of what it is to be. ! simply ask you for your consideration of these
points. Thank you so very much.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Naomi Solo: I'm not a resident of your Town but rather a weekly visitor of your Town
and I just wanted to send you my compliments as a Planning Board. The village I live in
is Port Jefferson. When ! moved there 40 years ago, we had a ferry that accommodated
about 45 cars. We now have 3 ferries that accommodate about 300 cars and our
Planning Board went through a lot of grief in trying to come to a compromise. We had a
neighbor, the Port Jeff Ferry, that was fairly good; you have a neighbor, the Cross
Sound, that is amazing. I've dealt with them professionally; I've asked them for services,
even as far as Port Jefferson - they've been wonderful. I think you have a difficult task
but I think I, and many of my friends - some of them are here tonight - who really love
the East End and respect the quiet, also love the service of the Cross Sound Ferry and
hope you'll come to something that will satisfy both parties. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Bob Wacker: I live in Nassau Point and I've done a fair amount of gambling in my
lifetime. The one thing I've learned about casinos is that if they want gamblers' money,
they will provide the transportation. If we're considering here enlarging the parking lot,
we might suggest an alternative to make the lot smaller, limit the parking as much as
possible, put a satellite on the Laurel line and the casinos will happily run buses back
Southold Town Planning Board
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October 2, 2000
and forth and they'll be no parking problem and with more people in each vehicle, you
should have considerably less traffic. Thanks.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Bob Scott.: I'm a gambleraholic. I'm also a Cross Sound Ferryaholic. Over the many
years I've used it for a lot of walk-ons, whether it to be picked up by my son and I park
out there as well. Cross Sound Ferry, their integrity is, I don't think, the issue here as far
as their service goes. ! know we have a problem with the cars that go from Greenport to
the ferry and 350,000, I think, was the number mentioned. A satellite was also
mentioned. I've always had the idea that the Southold Town, the casinos that are
involved, and with the help of the people in the North Fork East End - be it East Marion,
Orient, etc. - get together, not to fight the ferry but to help the ferry survive and to help
the ferry survive, you can do that by taking 350,000 cars and turn around and give it
70,000 buses, which is a heck of a lot less traffic there. If you don't sell a walk-on ticket
at the ferry, you have to pick it up at the place where you park. That bus will take you to
the ferry. Taking the bus to the ferry - I don't know how many people park their car on a
rainy night and have to wait for the ferry in line while it's raining or snowing but if the bus
took you out there, you'd be the first one on and you wouldn't have to wait in that rain. i
don't live out there, but ~ do understand the people out there are very, very traffic-
oriented. It's only going to get worse, but talk to Cross Sound Ferry as opposed to
saying "Don't have any. You can't have parking there. We don't want it there". You
should be talking to your Town Board and saying "Look, let's have an alternative site so
they can continue doing what they're doing and you can continue to have the quality of
life that you're asking for". That way you get a win, win situation. Cross Sound Ferry
gets to do business and make money as they should because they're business people
and you get to have less traffic going down there and maintain the quality of life that you
have on your main road. And it makes sense to me. As it stands now, if I lived in East
Marion, I would not go on that road from twenty 'til the top of the hour. ! would know that
between the top of the hour and twenty after I've got clear license to that road. You'vE;
got to bend with it. I didn't come into this Town and say "God bless it, i'm going to tell
you what I'm going to do". ! told them - I asked my Town and said "Look, how do i do
this so that ! don't step on your toes and I can do my business?" Basically, that's all I
have to say. Thank you.
Jim Dinizio: I'm from Greenport and I live on a road that comes out on 25 from the
confluence of 48, a fairly dangerous intersection. I can say honestly that that road has
been dangerous for years. I used to ride my bicycle down, get on the ferry and go over
to the park in New London. it's always been dangerous, it's a narrow road. The
shoulders are a little better now than they were back then but still cars sped on that
road. It wasn't just ferry traffic. It was guys from Orient and East Marion and anybody
else who cared to drive down there through the farm lots.
I think we're here basically because we're looking for parking. These people are looking
for parking. You are holding a hearing to hear what the townspeople think about this
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October 2, 2000_
parking. The traffic on the road, although it's certainly generated by the ferry, it can't be
a responsibility of the ferry. They are a business and like any business, such as my
business, if I have a lot of people calling me, I'm going to hire more people. I'm going to
get the work done. This is what the ferry is doing. It's their responsibility. They're not
going to leave cars out in the parking tot at the end of the night. They've addressed that
problem. What did they do? They expanded their service. That's a natural progression
for a business. It's how a business survives. Now they've offered a solution. That
solution is to put a parking lot in there so the cars come off the road and they go into
that parking lot. And guess what - if that's not big enough, I support going onto the other
piece of property. You know why? Because they're not on Town property. They're in the
proper place - parked properly. All that traffic on that piece of property will be a certain
flow. The traffic will be able to be controlled. Naturally, you have to have lighting. At
night people can't see. You have to have lights in the parking lot and I think they've
addressed that and I think that considering a Negative Declaration on this particular
application is the proper course and I think that you think the same thing.
Now, I'm all for them. ! don't use the ferry all that often, but [ have to wait for that traffic, i
wait every day, believe me, and sometimes it's frustrating if I don't remember the times.
But, ! wait and, yes, ! have seen some very horrendous things and, yes, I would like to
see a little bit more police protection down there. If they're doing 55 in a 45 - hey, ! want
to see some tickets given out there but that's not your problem; that's not the ferry's
problem. That's Southold Town's problem and if you hear people here, they're
complaining about speeding. The speeding is not the destination, it's the actual amount
of speed that's going on in that car that has to be regulated and they don't do that.
Southold Town does that in Southold Town with their Police Department and I believe
that if you give out 100 tickets a day there, then you give out 100 tickets a day. That's
the way it goes and, unfortunately, they may grumble about it, but you'll slow that traffic
down. If you don't, we'll keep giving out tickets and that's the proper way of doing things.
Let these people do what they need to do, which is get those cars off that road. They
need to be taken off that road. It's helter skelter down there. ~ saw a picture in the paper
the other day, those people have to be a good quarter of a mile away from the ferry
where they were parking. To have this go for five years when you know what the
problem is, all I see now is using SEQRA to hide your head in the sand. You've done it
before in this Town. You've given the people the right to expand their parking for,
certainly, safety benefits and that's what the Town will gain from this, the safety aspect
so that we can control the traffic and that's what we need. So, ! urge you to follow along
the course of the Negative Declaration and approve this application. Thank you.
Bill Fagen: ! live in Orient Point. We're out here not quite two years and the two years
that we're here we had to drive the car off the road because people were crossing the
double line and they were the people coming off the ferry, not the people who live here
- people from off the ferry. Now if somebody's in that lane with the blue sign path where
people jog or bicycle people, they're going to get wiped out. You see it on and on again,
especially going east, you see these guys come out, cross the double line and you
Southold Town Planning Board
.Page Twenty-nine
October 2, 2000
wonder if they're going to get back in. You wait and you can only wait so long and
you've got to get off the road. Four times, right by us, on our side. That's my problem
with this whole situation. Thank you.
Mr. Oriowski: Any other comments?
Bob Hicks: ! live in Orient Point and I've been here about 16 years and we did move out
here for the quality of life, and when we came out here, there was a car ferry. So be it.
We were contending with that. We think it's fine. However, mysteriously, a high speed
ferry appears. I've been in business for years and ! have never seen a situation where
you can come in and drastically change the scope of your business without any prior
input. All of a sudden we're faced with no ability to park, no control of our roads and now
we're asking for a site plan and a SEQRA. What's wrong with that? Why don't we
proceed in that fashion. It's a law. It's a law most everywhere. I'm not sure that Southold
is any different. If you change the scope of your business drastically, you're required to
put in planning. You're required to advise everyone what to expect. I didn't expect this. ~
don't want it. I want it controlled. Alright, let's get a SEQRA. Let's go through the
planning process. Why is this omitted? And that is really my point. I give Cross Sound
Ferry as much credit as anyone else, but I don't give them credit for bringing in another
part of an operation without proper planning. I object to that and I'm here to voice that.
Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
John Cadwallader, Manager, Cross Sound Ferry: Good evening. I'm a resident of East
Marion and, for those of you who don't know me, i'm also the manager of the Orient
Point Terminal for Cross Sound Ferry. I've been a long-time resident of East Marion as
well as Orient and i've been raising my family here for quite a number of years. I wasn't
planning on speaking tonight but I've heard a number of misconceptions put forth and I
want to clarify a few things. I realize that traffic on the roads is certainly an issue for all
of us here in Southold Town and it sounds like something that really needs to be
continued to be addressed. Before us tonight, though, is a matter of parking and we're
talking about a parking lot improvement. I don't think there's anyone here that knows
better the parking situation in Orient Point than I do. i've been the manager of this
facility for 17 years come this February and I would like to just let you know a little bit
about the parking situation in Orient. Our first parking "crisis" occurred many, many,
many years ago with an enormous influx of people bringing their children to the ferry in
the summer to go to camp, Boy Scout Camp in Rhode Island. That is still going on
today, in summer that is, and that really created an overflow of parking in our facility. At
that time we were, in fact, using the piece of property known as the "Snack Bar Lot" but
that was not enough to accommodate all of the individual families bringing their children
off where they would rendezvous with their respective Boy Scout Troops and then go
over on the ferry and on to Rhode Island in buses to camp. In that time, the piece of
property known as the "Trust Parcel" became available and so the company thought it
would be wise to acquire that property in preparation for the future. Meanwhile, on the
Southold Town PlanninR Board
PaRe Thid. y
October 2, 2000_
western side of the ferry operation, the west lot shown there, that was a piece of
property owned by Mr. Henry Blauvelt and, ! know again from first hand conversations
with Mr. Blauvelt, it was the only existing piece of property in that Marine Zone still
available and it was between Cross Sound Ferry's terminal and the Plum Island facility
and I had talked to Mr. Blauvelt on behalf of the ferry a number of times over the years
to see if they were interested in selling that property to the ferry company. Eventually,
Mr. Blauvelt passed away and the property was left to his family in trust and eventually
they decided that they would sell to Cross Sound. And, at that time, we decided that we
would like to make it a parking lot and went before the Town and did so.
Meanwhile, a casino was built in Connecticut and that casino did, in fact, generate more
traffic to the East End. Many people from Southold Town, in fact, frequent that casino,.
They don't have to be gambling addicts to go; they can be responsible people going out
for a nice time, people of all ages. Unfortunately, in order to meet the demand of the
increased ridership, an opportunity presented itself where we could provide a high
speed passenger service. That service came on line to meet an already existing
demand and it just happened to coincide with the finalization of that western parking Iot.
That led a lot of people in this Town to feel like they had been "snookered" but the
reality is that I personally wanted to see that as a parking lot long before I ever knew
there was going to be a casino built in Connecticut. The other misconception that is
bandied about is that our parking lot is not just for people going to the casino nor is the
high speed ferry just for people going to the casino. There was a very interesting piece
in Newsday not long ago about Justice Louisa Evans using the high speed ferry in order
to conduct business in Southold Town on occasions. Many college students take that
ferry and make connections to the train in New London and go north and south from
there. Many families use that ferry and are met by people on the other side. Many
grandparents love to go visit their grandchildren because it cuts their travel time - they
can make a day trip of it. So, I realize that some people don't like casinos. I'm not a
gambler myself but the fact is that the parking lot is for all of our patrons. On any given
holiday weekend, we can have as many as 150 or more cars in that lot overnight that
have nothing to do with casinos. Those cars are people who park to go to other places.
There are people who leave their cars there for great periods of time because it's
convenient for them when they return to Long Island, to jump into their car and go to
their homes from there.
So, I'd like to clear some of those things up. Like I said, I feel that parking is an issue
and I'd like to see it addressed. Right now, what we're trying to do is get an approval in
compliance with Southold Town for using the "Snack Bar Parcel" for which, again, we've
been using ever since I've been here and try to improve our facility in general. Thank
you.
Mr. Orlowski: Thank you. Any other comments?
Charles Murrin: I'm a resident of Orient Point and a very close neighbor to the ferry, as it
turns out. There's a little misconception too here. I don't hear anybody saying that we're
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Thirty-one
October 2, 2000
talking about improving our - getting site plan approval for a parking lot. And people are
talking like this is going to solve some problems. It's a fact that that lot has had 250 cars
on it for the last 5 years without a site plan so, whether this thing is approved, it's all
nothing essentially. The only thing that happens is that you'll still have the cars up on
Main Road and you'll have an approved lot but no solution for any parking whatsoever.
The other point I'd like to make is that we seem to be getting into "black hats" and "white
hats" and, speaking for Southold Citizens for Safe Roads, we call the ferry "black hats"
and we use the ferry to park there as much as anyone. Our argument is with the
gambler's ferry. The parking and everything else is being utilized as if it's been an
absolute facility for five or six years and absolutely nothing has been done about it by
the Town. Thank you.
Ronnie Wacker: Unless ~ am mistaken, ! don't believe that the Planning Board is being
asked to decide whether the parking lot can be enlarged or not. ! think the Planning
Board is being asked to conduct the legal method of determining a project and that is to
have a SEQRA Review and that is all. This is normally done, so ! think that we're getting
off on the wrong track here. We're not asking you to say it's a good idea to have an
enlarged parking lot; we're not asking you to say we shouldn't have an enlarged parking
lot. We're just asking you to obey the law and ask for an Environmental Review. Thank
you.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
(Simultaneous Discussion)
Freddie Wachsber.qer: t would encourage everybody here to support having alternate
ferry sites, not only in Montauk but also in Shoreham or somewhere comparable. And,
in order to do that, we've asked the Town to do that and I, myself, have sat in Pat
Acampora's Office and Michael Caracciolo's Office and Ken LaValle's Office. I
recommend to everybody to write letters to those Legislators and encourage them to
support alternate sites because a lot of the roadblocks are there. It's got to come
sometime. It should come soon, rather than later, before the Orient Point site is totally
destroyed. And so, it's not that nobody's been doing anything about that but we need a
lot more effort in that direction.
] just want to say, ~ wanted to mention one thing - the initial speaker mentioned about
working with the DOT to change the conformation at the end of Route 25. I was looking
back at some of the responses from County and State to your initial scoping sessions
and one of the concerns that came from Parks and Recreation was to not limit public
access to the beach there, which the end of that road had parking there that was
supposed to provide in a very concern that what they're talking about will, in effect, cut
off the right of the ordinary public to have access to the beach there. My last word is
just, you know, we've found that the introduction of the passenger ferry five years ago
required - was a Type I Action and required a Positive Declaration and a SEQRA
Review and still does.
Southold Town Planning Board
.Page Thirty-two
October 2, 2000
Richard Warren on behalf of Cross Sound Ferry: I'm not a lawyer. Someone referred to
me as a lawyer. I'm a planning consultant. We're not here in some disingenuous mode
that some people here have tried to say we are. We're not chameleons. We're not with
an application that's going to morph. We've been working with you for months trying to
resolve this on a weekly basis - meetings, submissions, questions - back and forth.
This isn't something that's been just thrown at the wall to see if it can stick. Some
people here seem to think it may have been. This is something that's been tong thought
out by the applicant and there have been compromises.
The application that you had before you - the first application - included another piece, of
property where there was an expansion of parking. This is now the regularization of the
existing area. The applicant has pulled back on the other piece of property. It's a
different application. There's nothing going to be surprising in terms of the SEQRA
process. It's going to be done publicly. It's going to be done openly by you. I don't
expect anything less. I don't think the applicant expects anything less and I don't think
it's fair for people to try to castigate the applicant by saying there's a shell game going
on here because there's not. Whether the Board classified it as an "Unlisted" or "Type I"
Action, the distinction is this: with an Unlisted Action you're allowed to submit a Short
Form Environmental Assessment Form. it's one page and has got some fill-in-the-blank
things. We didn't give you that. We gave you a Long Form EAF, consistent with a Type !
because we knew there would be questions. We're not trying to hide anything. We know
you're going to go through the process that's necessary to review this. We hope you
lead to a Negative Declaration. We think that when you look at all the information that's
available, when you look at the project site, the scope of the work that's proposed here,
we hope you'll lead to that.
There have been a lot of speakers who have spoken here tonight. There has been a lot
of interesting information that's been presented - a lot of positive information that's been
presented. I just want to let you know that this application that has been filed on behalf
of Cross Sound was not done as a chameleon-like action or something that's going to
morph over time. If it morphs, it's going to morph with the Planning Board and the public
review. And that's the way it's going to be because that's the process. There's nothing
that can be hidden in this process. It's a site plan review. We're here and we're ready' to
deal with it. We've been ready to deal with it for some time.
Valerie Scopaz, Town Planner: I would just like to take a moment to state some facts for
the record. I think Mr. Warren mentioned some of them and I just think, because it's
been a very long drawn out process, I just want to address some misconceptions just so
that we're all on the same page and that we don't start reading things into what's not
factual and correct. First, I want to mention that there's been numerous references to
prior SEQRA activity and, yes, there was prior SEQRA activity that led to a request that
the applicant prepare an Environmental Impact Statement and we did go through a
scoping process. However, that application was withdrawn by the applicant and what
we have before us is a different application from what was first submitted in 1996 and
so the Planning Board is required by law to go through the SEQRA process again to
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Thirty-three
October 2, 2000
start it over on what's in front of it. I just want everybody to be clear about that. The
Board has not made any decision. All they've done is start the environmental process
and this meeting is part of the public process to allow you to have some input into it.
The Board has opened up the hearing, the floor, to a whole wide range of issues that
are a concern to the community. You have not been confined to any one particular issue
and ! think the comments that were made here reflected that.
The SEQRA process will take most of this month and, during that period of time, any
further comments or observations that the community chooses to make can be
submitted to this Board, not only verbally in testimony, but in writing. Just so you are
aware of this, the procedure in the office is that any letter that comes in to the office, a
copy goes to every single Board member and every staff member as a matter of record
and the original goes in the file so any one of you can come in and ask to look at the file
and read and see what's been submitted. These minutes will be typed up. They will also
be available for the public record, so if someone wasn't able to be here and they want to
read what happened, that would be available.
The decision as to whether a Positive or a Negative Declaration will be issued is a
decision that is still before this Board and, obviously, the comments that were made will
be taken into consideration. Again, I caution you that the Board has to make its'
decision on the application that's in front of it and not on what had been in front of it and
so the issue of segmentation is essentially not an issue before the Board at this point in
time.
With regard to the Unlisted Action status, I would like to clear up a misconception about
Unlisted Actions. There are many people who feel that an Unlisted Action automatically
presumes that the Board doesn't have to take a hard look at the issue. That is not the
case whatsoever. The determination does not absolve the Board from reviewing the
facts. It's simply a bureaucratic term, if you want to call it that. The Type I Action
requires that you fill out other paperwork but, as was pointed out by Mr. Warren, they
have filled out more than what was required by that of the Unlisted Action.
I want to mention, just for the sake of factual information, that when a Board makes an
initial determination, part of the coordination process was that this Board was required
to send out a copy to several agencies - State, Local and County agencies - the fact
that it's doing this Environmental Review and the determination of Unlisted or Type I ils
part of that review so, that is not set in stone.
I think that basically wraps up what I wanted to say. I just wanted to make sure there
was clarity on that and, if there are any questions from reporters afterwards about the
fine points of SEQRA, I'd be happy to answer them. Thank you.
Mr. Orlowski: Would anyone else like to make a comment?
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Thirty-four
October 2, 200,9_
John Nickles, Jr., Southold: After listening to comments from both sides, I don't want to
reiterate anything about traffic but I think that everybody realizes what the situation is
there. People who are opposed to passing this current site plan that I see before us,
that I've looked at - basically the way they've been operating so, unless anybody who's
opposed is in favor of not just restricting but reducing the current business that Cross
Sound Ferry is doing, they're going to be in favor of this site plan. If they want to reduce
what's going on here, then i understand why they're not in favor of that. But, I'm in favor
of that. That's all I have to say.
Mr. Orlowski: Any other comments?
Dr. Ro egg.[~: The gentleman, whose name escapes me at the moment: Would you mind
explaining this in detail - this great chart that you have here?
Mr. Orlowski: (To Mr. Warren) Would you like to?
Mr. Warren: Sure, I'd be happy to. It's a concept site plan that shows four parcels. This
is known as the "West Parcel"; Gardiner's Bay is here; Main Road comes down here
and terminates. Here is the Snack Bar. Here is the existing terminal, right here. North is
up here. South. Over here is the Federal Government property, Plum Island. This is the
Western Parcel that has an approval from the Town for a 69 space parking lot. It was
approved by the Town of Southold a number of years ago. This is the Terminal Parcel.
You've got the existing terminal. These are the cueing aisles as the cars come throuGlh
here and they park, waiting to load onto the ferry. This is the existing street end that
comes down through here. There's a building here at the end. It's utilized by the ferry
itself. This is the parking along through here. This is the existing guard rail that
separates the parking, the public parking at the street end from the parking lot that's
over here. This is the Snack Bar Parcel. This would be the Trust Parcel. This is where
the last application showed an expansion of parking, on this parcel. This was going to
be a large, unified parking lot. The plan that's before the Town for consideration is to
install curb stops that would be along this northern edge, this western edge. We've got
an existing guard rail here, fence that exists along this location and then a curb stop
here. This would be a guard rail, down this side. There's been a concern that's been
raised about the potential encroachment across this line so the applicant has agreed
that we would install a guard rail on that side. This is an existing right-of-way, a County
right-of-way to gain access out to the Point. The plan also includes the installation of
some buffer planting in this area and enhancement of the planting around through here.
The reason that we put together a site plan is to illicit some public comment and also
get some feedback from the Board to know that we're going in the right direction. So the
plan would be that a formal engineering plan would be drawn with formal landscape
plans at the time when everybody says it's time to do that. The parking surface right
now that is rough, irregular and potholed would be graded and it would be stone
surfaced so you'd have some drainage on the site. That's the plan.
Southold Town Plannin.q Board
Pa,qe Thirty-five
October 2, 2000
The lighting is something that has not yet been defined. It's something that we would
work with the Town on in terms of trying to find some sort of Iow-level lighting. I
presume that's going to be something that would follow the perimeter on some of the
fencing.
(Unidentified man and woman speaking.)
Mr. Odowski: I can't allow this to be a debate or a question and answer thing because it
will go on all night long. If you have comments, you can talk after Rich makes his
presentation. O.K.? Any other comments? (There were none.) Would any of the Board
members like to say anything? (There were no comments from the Board.)
I think somebody put it properly during this process when they said that the Planning
Board does have a difficult task. We know we do. This is probably the most open to the
public application you'll ever get here. I mean, we've brought it out and it's open to the
public. This hearing will not be closed tonight. It will be left open for the next meeting. As
information comes in, as we go through the SEQRA process, you're allowed to come
into the office, review it, make comments. As far as i'm concerned, this was a very good
meeting; the Board got a lot of input, a lot of good information. We'll be working with our
ideas also and our thoughts in trying to work with the applicant. The reason we did start
this a little sooner with the conceptual plan is so the public would have comment, so we
don,t have to sit here in the middle of January when there's two feet of snow on the
ground and you're saying "Why would you hold a hearing in January on a plan that's
complete". We ask for your input; we ask for your comments. You were very good
tonight. I appreciate it. I applaud the audience for their comments and information.
I'm going to entertain a motion now to hold this hearing open.
Mr. Cremers: So move.
Mr. Latham: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. Any questions on that motion? All those in
favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Cremers, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? So carried. Just for the record, I'd like you all to know that this
Board has always supported an alternate ferry site and it's something that's totally out: of
our hands. Somebody said that we weren't supporting it. We do support it and I'm sure if
they could find one, they'd use it but that's another story altogether, i'd like to thank you
for coming and we'll be back here in a few more weeks.
Southold Town Planning Board
Page Thirty-six
October 2, 2000
Mr. Odowski: Would anybody like to comment for the record right now? Otherwise, we
are going to adjourn and go into a work session. (No one wished to speak.)
I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.
Mr. Ca_~aiano: So move.
Mr. Edwards: Second.
Mr. Orlowski: Motion made and seconded. All those in favor?
Ayes: Mr. Orlowski, Mr. Caggiano, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Latham.
Mr. Orlowski: Opposed? Motion carries.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned
at 8:10 p.mo
Bennett Orlo'~S~J- ~., Chairman
Respectfully submitted,
Carol Kalin, Secretary
£'Jd l